Sitting of 11 June 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BLACKPOOL CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL (by Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next.
  NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [Lords] (by Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL NAVY

    Air Station, Yeovilton
    Mr. Peytonasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement concerning the proposed extensions to the runways at the Royal Naval Air Station, Yeovilton; and the effect of those extensions upon the village of Yeovilton.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Wingfield Digby): Extensions of the runways at the Royal Naval Air Station at Yeovilton are required to enable the station to handle modern types of naval jet aircraft now in production. It is true that the use of these aircraft may produce more noise. Certain advantages will, however, accrue from the lengthening of the runways in that the paths of aircraft in the air will be further away from the village, both when taking off and when approaching to land, than has been the case in the past.
    Mr. Peyton: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is no other village in the country which has on two sides and at a very close distance runways to be used by jet aircraft? Is he further aware that it is the view of many of the inhabitants of that village that the conditions of life there will become entirely intolerable for them when these proposals have been completed?
    Mr. Digby: I am very sorry that there is bound to be some inconvenience to those living in the village. I was there myself last Friday. Everything it is possible for us to do is being done to make that inconvenience as little as possible.

    801 Squadron (Foreign Service)
    Mr. W. T. Williamsasked the First Lord of the Admiralty for what reason the activities of 801 Naval Air Squadron, which from June to September is serving in Malta and thereafter until next May is serving in Korean waters, are to count as Home Fleet service and not as foreign service.
    The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Commander Allan Noble): It is the normal rule that foreign service does not include temporary service abroad, in a ship or squadron normally based in home waters, if the period abroad does not exceed 15 months. 801 Squadron is normally based at home and will only be abroad for 11 months.

    Motor Launch (Loss)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement on the circumstances in which a launch of the Royal Navy was sunk last week.
    Commander Noble: Her Majesty's Motor Launch No. 2582 was taking part in a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation amphibious exercise. Units of all three Services, both of the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, were engaged, and were operating under the Commander-in-Chief, Netherlands Home Station. The vessel was lost during a mock attack on her by two aircraft of the Royal Netherlands Air Force. The accident forms the subject of a board of inquiry, convened by the Dutch Naval authorities, and my right hon. Friend is awaiting further information. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing the deep sympathy of the Board of Admiralty

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    to the relatives of those of both countries who lost their lives in this accident.
    Mr. Dugdale: Whilst joining with the sympathy expressed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, may I ask whether he will inform us when he is in a position to make a statement on the result of the board of inquiry?
    Commander Noble: I will pass that request on to my right hon. Friend.

    N.A.T.O. Exercises (British Minesweepers)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement on the circumstances in which seven British minesweepers were withdrawn from North Atlantic Treaty exercises in the Central Mediterranean.
    Commander Noble: These ships, which are small wooden motor minesweepers of war-time construction, left Malta accompanied by a depot ship to participate in a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation minesweeping exercise. One of the minesweepers was damaged by a fire in the battery room and defects affecting the seaworthiness of the others developed during the initial stages of the exercise period. They were all sent back to Malta in order that they could be repaired for further operations shortly to take place.
    Mr. Dugdale: Is it not very strange, when large sums of money have been made available to the Admiralty for, among other things. the repair and upkeep of these ships, that these ships should be in such a condition that they have to be withdrawn in the middle of exercises?
    Commander Noble: The right hon. Gentleman should be a little careful how he makes a statement like that. These ships were recently commissioned from Reserve. As he knows, they are old ships remaining from the war, and they are gradually being replaced by new construction. My right hon. Friend is awaiting a report on the whole matter.

    H.M.S. "Burghead Bay' (Mail Delivery)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the First Lord of the Admiralty in what circumstances no mail was delivered to H.M.S. "Burghead Bay" on 2nd May, 1952, when this ship
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    called at Bahia, on returning from a long tour, mainly in the Antarctic.
    Commander Noble: I regret that, due primarily to the use of the name "San Salvador," without any qualification, mail for Her Majesty's ship "Burghead Bay," which should have been delivered to the ship on 2nd May was sent to San Salvador in the Republic of Salvador, instead of to Bahia, Brazil—which is often called San Salvador, a slight corruption of its old name. I am advised that the missing mail has since reached the ship.
    Mrs. White: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that, in spite of the original confusion to which he has confessed, the mail nevertheless reached the correct port four hours before the ship sailed; and is it not therefore most regrettable, as the mail was in the town, that it was not delivered to the ship?
    Commander Noble: I will certainly go into that point. The Admiralty attach very great importance to mail being delivered on every possible occasion.

  SHIPBUILDING (STEEL ALLOCATION)
  Mr. F. Willeyasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps he has taken to meet the complaints made to him by the industry about the allocation of steel to shipbuilding; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Digby: The Government intend to increase the allocation of steel for merchant shipbuilding as soon as supplies permit. Unfortunately, for the reason given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply on 30th May in a written reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins), the total steel supplies for the third quarter of this year will be less than in the second quarter, and a very slight reduction in the shipbuilding allocation has been unavoidable. It is impossible at present to forecast the level of steel supplies that will be available in the last quarter of the year.
  Mr. Willey: While appreciating the hon. Gentleman's difficulties, may I ask him whether he realises that this is very disturbing news to the shipbuilding industry? Quite apart from the amount of

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  steel allocated, the industry is somewhat disappointed at the way in which it is being allocated at present. Some quite important jobs are being held up for the want of the required steel at the required time.
  Mr. Digby: I know there may have been difficulties about getting the steel at the right moment, but I was not aware of any difficulty about the method by which the allocations have been made.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Has the fall in the allocation for the third quarter any connection with the fall in shipments of steel from the United States of America?
  Mr. Digby: I should require notice of that question.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this news about the third quarter's allocation and the dangers concerning the fourth quarter is very disappointing indeed to all of us concerned with the shipbuilding position, since it has importance for the whole trade situation of this country?
  Mr. Digby: I think we are fully aware of those difficulties, and have them constantly in mind.

  POST OFFICE

    Mail Bag Robbery
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Assistant Postmaster-General, in view of the recent robberies of Her Majesty's mail, if he will make a statement as to the extent to which the system is at fault; and what steps are being taken to prevent further outrages.
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he has any further statement to make with regard to the recent mail bag robbery.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): There is nothing I can say beyond telling the House that a large number of search warrants have been issued and houses have been searched. I can assure the House that the case is being vigorously handled.
    Sir W. Smithers: Are not my hon. Friend and the country aware that this increasing wave of crime, of which this instance is typical, is due mainly to six years of the irresponsible policy of Socialism in action?
    Mr. Shinwell: Will not the Assistant-Postmaster-General repudiate this foul allegation that the Labour Government was responsible for this mail outrage?
    Mr. Gammans: The supplementary question does not in any way arise out of the original Question or my answer to it.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Why are these large sums of money transported at a time and in a manner which is most convenient to the robbers? By that I mean: Why are they transported in the darkness of the night and without an adequate guard?
    Mr. Gammans: If the hon. and learned Gentleman was in the House when this matter was raised two or three weeks ago he would have heard me tell the House that there is nothing in the least abnormal about these particular consignments. They are going on every night, and have gone on for 30 years or more without any loss at all.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Will the hon. Gentleman seek to inconvenience robbers in future?
    Sir Edward Keelingasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether the Postmaster-General will seek powers to refuse bank notes for despatch by post to the Bank of England for destruction unless they are cut into halves, sent separately, or have the corners removed.
    Mr. Gammans: No, Sir; my noble Friend does not consider he would be justified in taking this step, which is primarily the concern of the banks.
    Sir E. Keeling: Can my hon. Friend confirm what has been stated since this Question was put down, namely, that most of the notes stolen in the recent big robbery were not old notes sent for destruction but new notes transferred to a bank. to which, therefore, my suggestion does not apply?
    Mr. Gammans: It is not so much new notes. A very large percentage were not soiled notes coming back to London but surplus funds being transferred from one branch of a bank to another.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is it true that the arrests of suspected malefactors are being held up until the loot has been located; and will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the undesirability of postponing such arrests as may be made for an unduly long period?
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if any special routing instructions were given to the driver of the mail van which was robbed near Oxford Street on 21st May.
    Mr. Gammans: Yes, Sir; but it would be against the public interest to disclose their nature.
    Mr. Hobson: Am I to understand that specific instructions were given to the mail van that was robbed as to the route it should follow?
    Mr. Gammans: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Ede: How long before the actual time the van moved off were those instructions given?
    Mr. Gammans: There is a standing instruction given to these vans. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not press me to say what they are. I am sure he would agree that it would not be in the public interest for me to give the details of the instructions which are given to drivers of these vans.
    Mr. Ede: I do not think the hon. Gentleman has quite grasped the question I put. He told my hon. Friend that these were specific instructions for this van. I asked: how long before the van moved off were these instructions given in this case?
    Mr. Gammans: I should want specific notice of that particular point.

    Postal Surcharges Scheme
    Mr. Fellasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when the postmark slogan about underpayment of postage on letters sent abroad is likely to materialise; and what progress has been made with the new system of collecting deficient postage on these letters.
    Mr. Gammans: I hope the slogan will be in use in September next. As regards the experimental system of collecting deficient postage, the Post Office has now added postage stamps to over 12,000 underpaid letters and received back from the senders 95 per cent. of the postage made up in this way.

    Government Departments (Cash Payments)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he will make a further statement about Government
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    Departments making cash payment for their use of the telephone and telegraph services.
    Mr. Gammans: I hope it will be possible to make a definite statement on this matter in about two weeks.
    Mr. Gower: Can the hon. Gentleman indicate whether we might anticipate good news in this matter?
    Mr. Gammans: I think the House will be satisfied with the news when they receive it.

    Union Recognition (Terrington Report)
    Mr. Wadeasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is now able to announce a decision on the Terrington Report and on the claim for recognition made by the Engineering Officers' (Telecommunications) Association.
    Mr. F. Macleanasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he is now in a position to announce the decisions of the Government on the Terrington Committee Report, and outstanding claims for recognition on the part of Post Office associations.
    Mr. Gammans: I am not yet in a position to announce my noble Friend's decision, but I hope to be able to make a statement to the House next week.
    Mr. Wade: May we have an assurance that in consideration of the Terrington Report due regard is being paid to the declaration of human rights and the principles of freedom of association?
    Mr. Gammans: I can assure the hon. Member that all these matters have been taken into consideration.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Kiosk Time-Switches (Thefts)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Assistant Postmaster-General how many Venner time-switches were stolen from telephone kiosks in the London postal region during the last six months.
    Mr. Gammans: Seventeen.
    Mr. Hynd: Will the hon. Gentleman ask his engineering department to try to design an attachment which will make those switches less easy to remove?
    Mr. Gammans: Yes, but I would suggest that these losses, regrettable as they are, are not a very big percentage of the total. There are over 42,000 of these switches in operation, and in Greater London the losses have been only 17.

    Trunk and Toll Calls (Delays)
    Mr. Robert Jenkinsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General what improvement has taken place during the three months ended 31st March in the speed of connecting subscribers on trunk and toll telephone calls.
    Mr. Gammans: During the three months ended 31st March the average time for the operator to answer toll and trunk calls was 5.7 seconds. In the same quarter of last year it was 9.4 seconds.
    Mr. Jenkins: Can my hon. Friend give any reason for this satisfactory result?
    Mr. Gammans: There has been an improvement in the staffing position, and I am glad to say that there has been less wastage in the number of staff resigning, or for any other reason leaving the postal service.

    New Cross Exchange
    Mr. Robert Jenkinsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when the New Cross telephone exchange will be converted from manual to automatic working.
    Mr. Gammans: About the end of this year.

    Doctors (Shared Lines)
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Assistant Postmaster-General to what extent doctors are required to share a telephone line.
    Mr. Gammans: A doctor is always given exclusive service to his surgery and the line is charged at the business rate; this applies also where his surgery and residence are in the same premises and are served by one line. Since 1st January, 1948, all doctors have been under obligations to share their telephone lines to their private houses if they do not practise there. In such cases the line is charged at the residence rate.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Road, Merryfield Airfield (Closure)
    Mr. Peytonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air by whose authority the road known as Gravel Lane, adjoining Merryfield Airfield, was closed without an alternative route being first provided; and whether he will cause the road to be reopened at least during times when flying is not in progress.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): Part of Gravel Lane was closed in 1944 by order of the Secretary of State for Air under Defence Regulation 16. There is another road between Ilton and Isle Abbotts, but it is about half a mile longer. Until a better alternative route can be provided, the public will be allowed to use Gravel Lane when flying is not in progress.
    Mr. Peyton: Is my hon. Friend aware that the concession he has made will be very welcome to the inhabitants of the surrounding villages, and will he give instructions that all inconvenience to the public should be avoided so far as possible?
    Mr. Ward: Yes, Sir. Of course, we always try to do all we can to avoid inconvenience to the public.

    Searchlight Co-operation (Aircraft)
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what types of aircraft are being used for night training co-operation with searchlights; and at what speeds they normally fly when engaged on these duties.
    Mr. Ward: Beaufighters, Oxfords, Proctors, Rapides, Geminis, Ansons and Consuls are used on this work, for which they fly at speeds ranging from 125 to 200 miles per hour.
    Mr. Harvey: Does my hon. Friend feel that this is realistic training? Moreover, in view of the fact that many of the men who are being trained in this way have served during active operations, does he think that this is likely to increase their enthusiasm?
    Mr. Ward: Operational squadrons cannot be spared for searchlight co-operation work because all available flying hours are taken up with interception and

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    all-weather training. Searchlight cooperation training is, therefore, not regarded as useful to them because the use of searchlights to help fighters in interception has now been surpassed by A.I. radar methods.

  CIVIL AIRFIELDS (MANAGEMENT COSTS)
  Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Civil Aviation if he will set up a committee to inquire into the cost and management of operating civil airfields.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. R. Maudling): No, Sir. These questions are continually under review so far as they concern the aerodromes under my hon. Friend's control. Indeed, the standards to which they are staffed is at present the subject of a special scrutiny.
  Air Commodore Harvey: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the operation of airfields is costing over £12 million a year, of which £2 million is a loss, and that one airfield in the south of England, to give an example, which had a staff of 19 now has 79; and would he not agree that it would be better to have an aerodrome board similar to the Air Registration Board which would bring about very necessary economies?
  Mr. Maudling: In the last four years the total number of aerodrome staff has gone down by 15 per cent., although there has been a very large increase in aircraft movements, the number of passengers and the volume of freight carried. We are well aware of the importance of economy in this matter, and we are carrying out a special scrutiny at this moment.
  Mr. Beswick: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the only difference between the present arrangements and the system which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has suggested is that the body responsible would not be represented in this House?
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the great importance of having a prompt and efficient service at these airports?
  Mr. Maudling: Certainly, we always bear that in mind.

  KOREA

    Koje Prisoner-of-War Camp
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has received from the United Nations Organisation as to the total number of compounds at Koje Camp; the number of these where the Communists have seized control; and the date when control of these compounds was lost by the United Nations commandant.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Eden): Until the regrouping of prisoners began in April, the camp on Koje Island included four enclosures. These enclosures were divided into a total of 37 compounds. New compounds and enclosures are at present being built and a substantial number of prisoners have now been transferred to the mainland. Until the regrouping is complete, it will not be possible to give precise details of the new arrangements.
    As regards the last part of the Question, the hon. Gentleman will realise that, in view of the large number of compounds, it is impossible to give a definite date.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the Minister aware that, unlike Lord Alexander, hon. Members on this side of the House are most unduly perturbed about the events on Koje Island? Does he not think that no bigger blow has been dealt at the democratic cause in Eastern Asia? Can he tell us why we have been kept so long in ignorance of these events on Koje Island?
    Mr. Eden: I do not think that anybody—certainly I do not—regards these matters as other than most deplorable and of the greatest concern to us all.
    I have just received a report from our Air Vice-Marshal Bouchier, who has been on a tour of the island, and there are two things about which the House might like to be told. The first is that the present operations now going on are being carried out by United States troops, and the second is that Air Vice-Marshal Bouchier saw our company of K.S.L.I. and described them as being in great heart and looking very fit. They are looking after compound 66 with 3,200 officer prisoners in it. He formed the

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    highest opinion of the capacity of General Boatner who has taken over this thankless task.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman going to make a statement at the end of Questions with regard to the operations yesterday in this camp?
    Mr. Eden: No, Sir.
    Mr. Jones: As the right hon. Gentleman was so kind as to volunteer additional information now, will he make a statement to the House as to the events of yesterday and tell us how many people were killed on each side, what is the nature of the operation and what are the views of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the manner of its conduct?
    Mr. Eden: I do not think that I can be expected to do that between now and the end of Questions. If anyone had asked a Private Notice Question I would have been glad to give the information. Perhaps a Question could be asked tomorrow?
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has received from the United Nations Organisation as to the number of anti-Communist prisoners who have been executed by Communists in the prison camp at Koje; and what measures it is proposed to take to prevent these actions.
    Mr. Eden: The best estimate available to me is that 115 prisoners have been killed by their fellow prisoners since July, 1951. It is possible that additional deaths may have occurred which have been carefully concealed and about which the United Nations Command have no knowledge. The measures now being taken to divide the compounds and separate the prisoners into smaller groups should help to prevent further violence by fanatical Communists against their fellow prisoners. These measures will, it is hoped, be completed in the near future.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the Minister aware that General Ridgeway himself has stated that many bodies are being passed out in the morning, and, as doubtless many more are buried inside the compounds themselves, would the Minister not agree that if British Forces had been in charge there might have been less of a shambles inside these compounds?
    Mr. Eden: I do not think that we want to make that kind of comparison—neither do I think the House will on consideration. It is quite clear that the circumstances in these camps have been deplorable, but we do not want to censure anybody. We want to make sure that this business is brought to an end at the earliest possible moment so that normal conditions, so far as they possibly can be, are restored. The figures I have given today are of those bodies taken out by the American guard. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly correct that there are probably a large number buried. I understand that steps are being taken, when the compounds are cleared, to dig them up, so that we may know even the most horrible truth.
    Captain Duncan: In fairness to the K.S.L.I., which my right hon. Friend has said is guarding 3,200 officers, will he make representations to reduce the number of officer prisoners which this company has to look after? It is far too many for one company to guard in a compound.
    Mr. Eden: This compound has been visited both by our commanders and by the American commanders and I should be very reluctant myself, without any expert or first-hand knowledge, to intervene in this matter. I mentioned the K.S.L.I, because I thought the House would be glad to hear what excellent spirits the troops are in.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now publish a White Paper on the events leading up to the employment of British troops in the prisoner-of-war camp on Koje Island.
    Mr. Eden: I hope soon to lay before the House a further general White Paper, in continuation of Cmd. 8366, on events in Korea. This would include an account of the events referred to by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Swingler: Does that mean that it will include the story of events on Koje Island and deal with the many questions that have hitherto been unanswered about the methods used in the screening of the prisoners of war and the circumstances under which the compounds in this camp came under the control of the prisoners themselves?
    Mr. Eden: We are using what information is at our disposal, and we are awaiting a report which General Mark Clark has called for and which we have not yet received, and I hope that it may be possible to include that. Of course, we shall also have a full account when Lord Alexander and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State return at the end of the month.
    Mr. Driberg: Has the right hon. Gentleman read the rather disquieting full text of the International Red Cross report on the events of February? Would he consider embodying that in the promised White Paper, as it has been extremely difficult to see the full text in this country?
    Mr. Eden: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I have not read it, but I will look it up and perhaps include it in the White Paper.

    U.N. Command (British Participation)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now publish a White Paper on the composition of the United Nations Command in Korea, and the powers and responsibilities of British commanders.
    Mr. Eden: No, Sir. As the House will be aware, Lieut.-General Bridge-ford, Commander-in-Chief of British Commonwealth Forces in Korea, is responsible to General Mark Clark as United Nations Commander, and to the Australian Chiefs of Staff in Melbourne, on behalf of all the Commonwealth Chiefs of Staff involved, for the administration of the Commonwealth forces in Korea. The Commander of the Commonwealth Division is under General Bridgeford's administrative command; operationally, he is subject, through the Commander of the Corps to which his Division is attached, to the orders of General Van Fleet, the Commander of the United States Eighth Army, and through him to the United Nations Commander in accordance with the Security Council's resolution of 7th July, 1950.
    Mr. Swingler: In view of the widespread anxiety about the fact that we have not been represented at the truce
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    talks or on the control of the camps and that we are not represented on the commission of inquiry into the events in the camps, would it not be desirable to lay before the public the plain facts about the bodies on which we are represented in the United Nations Command in Korea and where the British Government can exercise some influence over what is done?
    Mr. Eden: The chain of command is quite clearly laid down; it has existed since the beginning of operations in Korea when it was laid down in the lifetime of the late Government, and it still exists. All along we have had liaison with the United Nations Command through Air Vice-Marshal Bouchier. Whether or not any additional suggestions for further liaison may be forthcoming as a result of the visits which are now taking place I would rather leave over until Field-Marshal Alexander's return.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: While we recognise the compelling reasons for the original arrangements which were made in Korea and the very great services rendered by the United States to the whole of the United Nations, will not the Foreign Secretary consider whether the time has come when, as a matter of principle, we ought to consider having an integrated U.N. Command as we have for N.A.T.O.?
    Mr. Eden: I would rather await Field-Marshal Alexander's report. We have, of course, considered these matters, but we have, frankly, been reluctant to interfere with the command arrangements which were originally laid down. We have to bear in mind how very preponderant is the American share in the losses and the fighting, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that his point has not been absent from our minds.

    Prisoners of War (Repatriation)
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will instruct Her Majesty's Government's representative at the United Nations to recommend that an independent commission, with Communist observers, should interview without delay all prisoners of war who have expressed their desire not to be repatriated.
    Mr. Eden: As I stated on 7th May, the United Nations Command have already offered a further screening, after an armistice, by a suitable international body or joint, national Red Cross teams, with observers from both sides. Her Majesty's Government regard that as a fair offer, which the Communists could accept with confidence. Her Majesty's Government are in close touch with the United States Government on this question.
    Mr. Henderson: In view of the statement which was published yesterday by the Commander-in-chief of the North Korean Forces in which he stated that the only obstacle to an armistice was the question of repatriation, and as the right hon. Gentleman has again stated that, in principle, the proposed re-screening is accepted, would he not agree that it is vitally important that the question as to whether the re-screening should take place before or after the armistice should not be allowed to prejudice the conclusion of the armistice agreement?
    Mr. Eden: I am obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I think the North Korean commander's reference was to the general question of the exchange of prisoners and not only to the screening. Personally, I would agree with him that if the only issue were whether the re-screening should take place before or after an armistice I do not consider that it should be allowed to stand in the way of an armistice, provided, of course, that there was acceptance by both sides in advance of the results of the re-screening.

  BURMA (CHINESE NATIONALIST TROOPS)
  Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what answer he has given to the reply sent by the Government of Burma to his proposal that an impartial commission should be sent under the auspices of the United Nations to investigate the circumstances under which Chinese Nationalist troops are at present in Burma.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Nutting): We have so far received no communication from the Government of Burma on this subject.
  Mr. Wyatt: Has the Under-Secretary seen the statement by the Prime Minister of Burma at a Press conference in which he described the proposals as completely impracticable, and did not the British Ambassador in Burma follow up the reference by the Prime Minister at the Press conference? Is it not understood that the only action which is required is to put pressure through the Americans on Chiang Kai-shek to remove the troops from Burma?
  Mr. Nutting: It is really a matter for the Burma Government, if they do not like the proposals which my right hon. Friend made in the debate some time ago, to decide what alternative measures they would accept.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Might I press the hon. Gentleman on this? Have any representations been made to Chiang Kai-shek that these troops should be removed? After all, they are under his command.
  Mr. Nutting: That is really another question. So far as the United States and General Chiang Kai-shek's own administration are concerned, they have repeatedly assured us that they have no connection whatsoever with the troops who are at the moment in Burma.
  Mr. Wyatt: How can the hon. Gentleman say that, since it is well known that Chiang Kai-shek's forces on Formosa have been supplying the Nationalist troops in Burma?
  Mr. Nutting: That is precisely what is not known and that is precisely the reason why my right hon. Friend put forward the suggestion for a fact-finding commission.
  Sir H. Williams: Might I ask my hon. Friend what responsibility he has for the Government of Burma?

  U.N.E.S.C.O. (SPAIN)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the British representative on the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations voted for the admission of Spain to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.
  Mr. Nutting: The object of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and

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  Cultural Organisation is to promote international collaboration in the field of education, science and culture. Her Majesty's Government saw no good reason to oppose the admission of Spain to the Organisation and trust that it may be of some benefit to the Spanish people.
  Mr. Driberg: Is it the view of Her Majesty's Government that the present Government of Spain can contribute something of value to the political and cultural education of the world?
  Mr. Nutting: We believe that the way to get the best out of these organisations is to make them as universal and all-embracing as possible.
  Major Beamish: Could political prejudice be carried to further extremes than to oppose the admission of Spain to U.N.E.S.C.O. while at the same time favouring the admission of Communist China which has more than 500,000 men in the field fighting against the United Nations?
  Mr. Nutting: While declining the invitation to make this answer rather broader than the Question on the Order Paper, might I inform my hon. and gallant Friend that we have followed the action of the United Nations in this matter? After the reversal in the General Assembly in November, 1950, of the resolution of 1946 against Spain being on these specialised agencies, the Socialist Government voted in favour of Spain's admission to the World Health Organisation and the Food and Agriculture Organisation. We believe that this admission to U.N.E.S.C.O. follows along those lines.
  Mr. McNeil: As the hon. Gentleman has told us that he believes that these organisations will function best with the nearest to universal membership, can the House take it that if China applies for admission she will have the support of Her Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Nutting: The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised when I ask him to put that question on the Order Paper.
  Mr. McNeil: I must press this. May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he has given a flat undertaking to the House, and, in view of that flat undertaking, will Her Majesty's Government support the Government of China if they apply for membership?
  Mr. Nutting: I have said already, and I think I carry the House with me, that the right hon. Gentleman must really put a question of that nature on the Order Paper.

  GERMANY

    Contractual Agreements (Financial Effect)
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what binding agreements on the financial burden in respect of our troops in Germany after June, 1953, have been, or will be, arrived at before the proposal to ratify the West-German Treaty is put before the House.
    Mr. Eden: None, Sir.
    Mr. Mikardo: At some time between now and the debate we are to have about ratification will the right hon. Gentleman make a full statement to the House on what will be our financial obligations in hard currency arising out of these arrangements?
    Mr. Eden: Is the hon. Gentleman referring to after June, 1953?
    Mr. Mikardo: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Eden: In that respect, it is impossible for anybody to give an estimate at this time because, as I explained to the House yesterday, the assessments of all the nations will be made for next year as it was for last year. What we have done is to make clear that we cannot shoulder additional burdens to those that we are now carrying and that there will have to be some further re-apportionment of the financial burden. Nobody can say exactly how this will fall out until it is made in June, 1953.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that the late Government made it perfectly plain that we could not shoulder any additional financial burdens as a result of German re-armament, particularly if they fell on our balance of payments? Is it a fact that the present Government are adhering to that point of view and that there is no reason for us to suppose that, when the discussions in N.A.T.O. take place, any additional financial burdens will be placed upon us?
    Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman is right. We have made our position

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    plain on this matter as, indeed, I acknowledge that the late Government certainly did. The difficulty is to fix any figure as far ahead as this because, amongst other considerations, nobody can tell what the Germans' own charges may be in respect of the period after June, 1953, nor can they tell the extent of the help in materials which they may receive from other sources, and which may enable them to give more help to the N.A.T.O. Forces. These are matters which are being considered at the present time.
    Mr. Mikardo: Whilst we all appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman says about the difficulty of fixing a figure for an indeterminate commitment in advance, does he not fix such a figure when he says that we do not in any event intend to accept any additional commitment? Does he not by that fix the figure at nought, and if that is the case are we not being a little silly in entering into obligations in advance of having a more clear cut understanding about this repartition of the financial burden?
    Mr. Eden: The House will be aware that a N.A.T.O. review is carried out annually by an international body, and it would be quite impossible for us to make an estimate in advance of the general international review, which does not take place until next year. There are other elements of uncertainty as well, such as how far we can reduce our own costs in Germany and an active investigation is being made about that with. I believe, useful results. However, I cannot commit us one way or the other in respect of a date in June of next year.
    Mr. Gaitskell: May we take it that discussion of how the German problem is to be dealt with will be part of the wider review of the obligations of the different N.A.T.O. and other countries?
    Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman is entirely correct. That is the whole problem and that is why we cannot take it separately as far ahead as June of next year.
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what the payments of the West German Federal Government, on behalf, and for the benefit, of our troops and other administration in Germany amounted to in the financial years 1948–49, 1949–50, 1950–51, 1951–52,
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    the first month of 1952–53, and in the calendar years 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952, respectively.
    Mr. Nutting: In the financial year 1948–49, the figure was 2,448 million marks; in 1949–50 1,721 million; in 1950–51 1,709 million; and in 1951–52 1,321 million. The estimated charge for April, 1952, is 84 million. It is not possible to give figures by calendar years.
    Mr. Mikardo: Can the hon. Gentleman say what will be the effect on our balance of payments of the cessation of receipts of this very substantial amount, amounting to between £120 million and £200 million sterling? Will not the cessation of these payments impose a great strain upon our external account, and can the hon. Gentleman say how it comes about that we shall probably be paying the Germans rent for the barracks in Germany for our troops while in this country we house the troops of other N.A.T.O. countries without making any such charge?
    Mr. Nutting: My right hon. Friend dealt with the whole question of the financial situation in regard to our forces in Germany in answer to a number of supplementary questions yesterday, and I have nothing to add to what he said.
    Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement regarding the decisions made during his recent visits to Bonn and Paris.
    Mr. Eden: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made yesterday.
    Mr. Brockway: I heard with great interest the statement which the right hon. Gentleman made. Is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to add to the reply which he made to the supplementary question regarding the possibility of a Four Power Conference rather than continuing exchange of notes?
    Mr. Eden: I made a comment yesterday. I think I went as far as I should; perhaps rather further than I ought.

  PERSIAN OIL (SALE)
  Mr. Philips Priceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the purchase by a United States firm

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  of 3 million tons of oil from the National Iranian Oil Company, what steps will be taken to protect British interests in this oil.
  Mr. Nutting: So far as Her Majesty's Government are aware, no such purchases have been made.
  There have been certain reports that United States Companies have made contracts with the National Iranian Oil Company for the purchase of oil from South Persia, but as is, I think, well known, Her Majesty's Government regard the products of the oil industry in South Persia as the property of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and all practical steps will be taken to prevent any attempt on the part of the Persian Government to dispose of this oil in any manner to third parties.
  Mr. Price: Can we take it that these rumours are merely attempts on the part of the Persian Government to boost their own prestige at home?
  Mr. Nutting: I do not think I can altogether confirm that suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, because the Persian Oil Commission have themselves denied these rumours.

  SOUTH KOREA (POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS)
  Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) how far President Syngman Rhee's proclamation of martial law will affect the position and responsibilities of British and United Nations' forces in Korea;
  (2) what are the representations which have been made by Her Majesty's Government, either to the United Nations Commission in Korea or to President Syngman Rhee, regarding the arrests by President Syngman Rhee of members of the National Assembly of South Korea and his proclamation of martial law.
  Mr. M. Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action he has taken, in view of the unconstitutional proceedings of the President of the South Korean Republic, which may endanger the operations of British forces in Korea.
  Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps the
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  British representatives with the South Korean Government are taking to represent the concern of Her Majesty's Government that parliamentary government and full democracy should be maintained in South Korea.
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the exact nature of the British Government's representations on the political situation existing there to the Government of Southern Korea.
  Mr. Eden: As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, give it at the end of Questions.
  At the end of Questions—
  Mr. Eden: On 24th May the President of the Republic of Korea, Mr. Syngman Rhee, proclaimed martial law in Pusan on the pretext of increased guerrilla activities near the city. I am satisfied, from the evidence available to me, that these activities did not warrant such a step.
  At the same time nine members of the Assembly were arrested, some on a charge of having trafficked in Communist funds, others for voting in favour of the release of a member of the Assembly, So Min-Ho, who had been arrested on a charge of murdering a South Korean army officer. The disturbances which followed his release had been made a subsidiary reason for imposing martial law.
  On 28th May the National Assembly voted for the lifting of martial law. In refusing to heed this vote the President is, we consider, acting unconstitutionally. On the same day the United Nations Commission for the Unification and Rehabilitation of Korea—on which incidentally, neither Her Majesty's Government nor the United States Government are represented—addressed a letter to the President urging the lifting of martial law in Pusan and the release of the arrested members of the Assembly, without prejudice to their possible subsequent prosecution, in accordance with constitutional principles, for any infringements of the law which they may have committed.
  The Commission also again offered their good offices to the Korean authorities in furthering the progress of the Republic of Korea along democratic lines. Similar messages have subsequently been sent to the President by

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  President Truman, the Australian Minister for External Affairs and the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
  As to action by Her Majesty's Government, on 4th June, Her Majesty's Charge d'Affaires in Pusan informed President Rhee in a personal interview of the concern of Her Majesty's Government at recent political developments in South Korea and strongly urged him to abide by the Constitution. Mr. Adams has since been instructed to continue to point out to the Government of the Republic of Korea that any threat to the democratic character of that Republic, from whatever quarter, would be a negation of the principles which the members of the United Nations, with their forces in Korea, have been fighting to defend.
  The United Nations forces in Korea entered the war to resist aggression and to uphold the principle of collective security. They have no wish to interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state established under United Nations auspices in 1948. Nevertheless, the danger of political instability and of disturbances on their lines of communication, and the effect which this might have on a large number of troops fighting at their side is a matter of deep concern to them.
  Her Majesty's Government's sole concern is to see that democratic and constitutional principles are duly observed. The first pre-requisite is a return to constitutional government by the lifting of martial law and the release of the arrested members of the Assembly. As a result of the joint representations to which I have referred, I hope that this will soon be done.
  Mr. Jones: Could the Foreign Secretary say what has been the reply of President Syngman Rhee to these representations?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. There has been a good deal of argument and discussion, which is still proceeding through various representations. If the hon. Gentleman would like further details, and if he will put down a Question, I will give them.
  Mr. Jones: Is it right that President Syngman Rhee has suggested that United Nations agencies should be removed from South Korea?
  Mr. Eden: I do not think—in fact, I am certain—that no such communication
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  was made to our representative when he had his interview.
  Mrs. Castle: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would be intolerable if, after the United Nations had taken up arms to prevent the North Koreans imposing a regime on the South by force, President Syngman Rhee, under United Nations protection, should be allowed to do the very same thing? In view of that, would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, if President Syngman Rhee continues to defy the United Nations, our Government should press for his removal from office?
  Mr. Eden: I have chosen my words rather carefully in this matter since it is not an easy one to weigh in all its responsibility, and I would rather leave my comments and sentiments in the words I have given.
  Mr. Hollis: Could the Foreign Secretary make it clear whose is the responsibility for the action against Communist guerrillas in South Korea? The Under-Secretary was good enough to say to me yesterday that the responsibility was transferred in April from the military to the civil authorities and that now suitable action is being taken. But by whom is the suitable action being taken? Is it by us or by the South Korean Government?
  Mr. Eden: I think my hon. Friend has raised an important point which arises in all these questions. The authority was transferred to the South Korean Government and it is their responsibility now.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that—I think I speak for all of us on this side—[Laughter.] I am trying to put a not unhelpful supplementary question. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are very glad about the action we have taken, and he can take it that he has the support of the whole House in the arguments that he has put forward?
  Mr. Bellenger: To put this matter in its right legal proportions, and in view of the fact that war-like operations are taking place in South Korea, could the right hon. Gentleman say where the line of demarcation lies between the civil authority and the military authority in proclaiming martial law?
  Mr. Eden: That is not an easy question to answer. There is a division of responsibility in that the South Korean authorities have relatively recently been given the responsibility for dealing with guerrilla activities in certain areas. In that respect I suppose the argument for the proclamation of martial law could be maintained. What we are criticising is the declaration of martial law within the city for which, on all our information, there is no justification.
  Mr. Donnelly: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that whilst we have United Nations troops in Korea and a military C.-in-C. in Korea, we have special powers in that country at this moment? Is there any legal power for the British Government to make representations to the United Nations Commander in Korea to remove President Syngman Rhee should the situation ever arise?
  Mr. Eden: We have special responsibilities but we have also, I think, a general desire that events in South Korea should develop along democratic lines. Even if we dislike some of his conduct, I think we ought to be careful to proceed by constitutional means in trying to check that conduct least we should be guilty of making the position worse by our own attitude.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is essential not to go outside the authority conferred upon our Forces by the Charter of the United Nations?
  Mr. Eden: That is exactly the point. In addition to which we have to remember that there are a number—I think 10 at least—of South Korean divisions who are loyally in the line at our side.
  Mr. Wyatt: Have we made it clear to President Syngman Rhee that if he is elected as President again by 25th June, as the Constitution requires, as the result of having arrested a sufficient number of his opponents in the Assembly to give him a majority, we shall be unable to recognise the validity of his re-election as President?
  Mr. Eden: The main facts in this situation show that we should not try too much to understand the politics of other countries. I understand that the President would have had a majority in the
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  Assembly before these events so, what his majority will be like now, I am afraid I cannot say.

  NORTH KOREA REPUBLIC (RECOGNITION)
  Sir H. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if a state of war now exists between this country and the Republic of North Korea.
  Mr. Eden: The United Kingdom forces in Korea are engaged in action under the United Nations for the resistance of aggression. Her Majesty's Government do not recognise the existence of any Republic of North Korea.
  Sir H. Williams: May I congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on the great improvement in the printing of the Order Paper?
  Do I understand that any British subject who engages in conversations of a friendly nature with a citizen of North Korea is not guilty of treason?
  Mr. Eden: My hon. Friend asked about a state of war existing between this country and the Republic of North Korea. I have answered him that we are not engaged in a war with the Republic of North Korea because we do not admit that there is such a State.
  Sir H. Williams: In those circumstances nobody in this country can be guilty of improper action if he engages in an act of friendship with the people who are engaged in killing our soldiers in North Korea?
  Mr. Eden: What we are engaged in is an action of the United Nations forces in lawfully resisting aggression under the United Nations Charter. That is the mandate for what we are doing, and that governs the reply to my hon. Friend's Question.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS (CIRCULATED ANSWERS)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Prime Minister if he will instruct Ministers answering Questions that, when information on a matter of general interest is not immediately available, they should usually undertake to circulate it in HANSARD rather than to convey it by private letter to an hon. Member.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): The usual practice is for Ministers to circulate answers to Questions in the OFFICIAL REPORT. But where the matter is not of general interest or importance, or the information asked for is detailed and not immed
  Mr. Driberg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on one recent day one Minister answered half a dozen Questions in this way by saying that he would write to the hon. Member when he had found out what the answer was? Without wishing to press this too far. for instance in regard to individual cases, may I ask whether the Prime Minister would not agree that, as a general principle, when a Question on a matter of general interest is on the Order Paper, the answer should be equally available for all hon. Members?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has expressed the position so well that I do not think I need add anything to it.
  Mr. J. Hynd: While the Prime Minister says that this practice is not without precedent, is he not aware of the fact that at least one of his Departments is using this practice as almost the common form of answer to Parliamentary Questions, that I have had to open a special file for the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and that on several occasions I have had to write to get the reply eventually?
  The Prime Minister: Anything which is in the public interest ought to be circulated to the House, but it would be a great pity if matters that were not of public interest and that went into great detail should encumber and add to the large amount of printed matter that we all have to study.

  MINISTRY OF FOOD

    Watchman's Dismissal
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that Mr. Samuel Skinner, aged 75 years, who was em-
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    ployed as a watchman at his B Depot, 1001/Q, Montague Buildings, West Road. E.15, at a weekly salary of £2 4s. was dismissed on economy grounds on 28th April; and whether, in view of this man's good service and the small amount of money involved, he will consider reemploying him.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): Staff at the Buffer Depots are employed by the Ministry's operating agents and not by the Ministry of Food, which has no say in individual engagements or dismissals.
    Mr. Shurmer: In view of the fact that an old man of 75 has been exploited with a wage of £2 4s. a week, will the Parliamentary Secretary make inquiries throughout Food Ministry offices in the country to see that other men are not also being exploited by being paid low wages?
    Dr. Hill: I should in fairness say that this was a part-time relief watchman, and the wage should be considered in relation to the time worked.
    Mr. Lewis: Do I understand from the Minister's reply that he has nothing to do with the payment of the wage or the making of any grant towards part-time employment?
    Dr. Hill: The Ministry enters into an arrangement with the agents for the administration of these warehouses and stores and meets the cost incurred in toto. However, the Ministry is excluded from the task of making appointments or the dismissal of staff.
    Mr. Mikardo: Surely the arrangements between the Ministry and the contractors are covered by the Fair Wages Clause, and will the hon. Gentleman say whether he has investigated if this particular contractor is operating the Fair Wages Clause?
    Dr. Hill: The hon. Gentleman is quite right, but the question about this part-time officer is not, I understand, about his wage but his dismissal as part of the reduction of staff.

    Bacon Ration
    Mrs. Braddockasked the Minister of Food what administrative steps he has taken to find out the number of families

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    not taking up the whole of their bacon ration because of its high price; and how he will ensure that rations not taken up do not find their way into illegal channels.
    Dr. Hill: The National Food Survey provides evidence of the pattern of public purchases of all foods. It reveals, for example, that the average proportion of the bacon ration which was bought by all households in the first three months of this year was 97 per cent. On the second part of the Question, action is taken whenever information about possible illegal transactions is brought to notice.
    Mrs. Braddock: Is the Parliamentary Secretary not aware that, following similar Questions, his Department received a very large number of letters giving instances where people were completely unable to buy the whole of their rations because of the price, and that it is possible to get bacon off the ration by buying it in the piece because people are not taking the whole of their ration? Will he please be certain that this method is not used in order to say that it is no longer necessary to ration bacon because there is plenty available?
    Dr. Hill: The National Food Survey is a statistical inquiry based on proper samples. The hon. Lady will be interested to know that the smallest take-up of bacon in the period in question, in comparison with the average of 97 per cent., was in the highest income group in which the take-up was 93 per cent.
    Mrs. Mann: Can the Minister assure the House that when one housewife cannot take up her ration of bacon and the grocer gives double to another housewife, the grocer always reports his action?
    Dr. Hill: The hon. Lady is as well able to reach a conclusion on that point as I am.
    Mr. Nabarro: Is it not within the realms of possibility that the 3 per cent. of people who do not take up their bacon ration are accounted for by those who do not like bacon anyway?
    Mr. F. Willey: Is not the supplementary information a little mystifying, calling for further inquiry? Could not the Ministry's regional officers conduct an
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    ad hoc inquiry into this matter, because there are widespread allegations as to why the bacon ration is not by a long way taken up?
    Dr. Hill: I should be glad to inquire into any statements or allegations of that sort.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware that some two months ago when I first raised the subject matter in the Question the Minister was asked whether he was going to some of the poorer areas of London to ascertain the facts as enumerated by my hon. Friend? Has the Minister made personal inquiries in the poorer areas of the country?
    Dr. Hill: I cannot say that my right hon. and gallant Friend has made inquiries in individual shops in poorer areas, but I would urge the House to accept the general conclusions of an objective survey, the National Food Survey.

    Bacon Curing Capacity
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Food if he will give an assurance that the present bacon factory capacity is sufficient to deal with the increasing production of pigs.
    Dr. Hill: No, Sir. Bacon factories are at the moment working to their full curing capacity and additional pigs are used for fresh pork.
    Mr. Crouch: What steps does my hon. Friend propose to deal with the situation? In my constituency quite a number of pigs have been transferred from the bacon factory to the pork market. This week, farmers are telling me that they have received notice that their pigs cannot be taken into the bacon factories.
    Dr. Hill: Within the limits of the capital investment programme something is being done. It is hoped, for example, that by the end of the year bacon curing capacity will have increased by 10 per cent. I would remind my hon. Friend of the problem created by the fact that we are now producing at home 70 per cent. more bacon than before the war.
    Mr. Crouch: Can the Minister not let more light-weight pigs go into the pork market and let us have a freer market for pork? We shall be overwhelmed with pigs when the autumn comes.

    Unrationed Food Prices
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Food how many food items, not at present rationed, have gone up in price during the past six months; and by what amount.
    Dr. Hill: In the six months to the middle of May, 27 items, apart from seasonal increases in the price of some fresh fruits and vegetables. The increases on individual items range from 4 per cent, to 33 per cent.
    Mrs. Mann: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that that is an astounding reply, in view of the fact that the Prime Minister told the electors during the Election that if we had a certain gentleman back at the Ministry of Food we would have that food at half cost?
    Dr. Hill: A fairer indication of the food price level is the Index of Retail Food Prices, which has risen in the four months January to April by 3.9 per cent., compared with an increase of 7 per cent. in the first six months of last year.
    Mrs. Mann: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that this is a very serious situation, bringing in its train the demand for wage increases, and resulting in difficulties in selling our exports at a competitive price?
    Dr. Hill: This is a selective question, intended to produce a particular type of reply. A fairer indication would be to recall the steeper rises in prices in corresponding periods of earlier years.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Would the Minister be good enough to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the details of price increases in these unrationed goods?
    Dr. Hill: Yes, Sir.
    Mrs. Castle: How many of these 27 items of which the prices have risen are those from which the Minister deliberately took off price control since the present Government came into power?
    Dr. Hill: It would take a little time to sort them out. They certainly include flour, which is the one responsible for the 33 per cent. figure.
    Following are details of the items in question:

    Percentage Increase

    Flour

    33per cent.

    Bread

    25per cent.

    Canned peas

    25 percent.

    Honey

    24 percent.

    Dried beans

    23 percent.

    Semolina

    19 percent.

    Dried peas

    15 percent.

    Meat and fish pastes

    12 to 15 percent.

    Canned meats and meat products

    11 percent.

    Canned beans in tomato sauce

    10 percent.

    Canned tomatoes

    10 percent.

    Coffee

    5 to 10 percent.

    Barley products

    9 percent.

    Biscuits

    8 percent.

    Cereal breakfast foods

    8 percent.

    Table jellies

    6 percent.

    Cocoa

    4 percent.

    Vinegar

    4 percent.

    Custard powder

    Some increases for individual brands

    Preserves

    Dates

    Condiments and sauces

    Soft drinks

    Cake and bun mixtures

    Canned soups

    Shredded suet

    Infant and invalid foods

COMPLAINT OF PRIVILEGE
Lieut-Colonel H. M. Hyde: I should like to draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to a matter which may possibly be considered a breach of Privilege. The matter concerns another hon. Member of this House, and in accordance with what I believe to be the custom of the House I have informed him of my intention to raise this matter today. I do so simply because I believe it to be my duty to the House and for no other reason.
The matter of which I complain consists of a remark or remarks attributed to the hon. Member in a report of a meeting of the Omagh Rural Council, published in the "Belfast News-Letter "of 10th June. This newspaper, although published yesterday morning in Belfast, did not reach the House until yesterday evening, and so I claim that I have raised the matter at the earliest possible opportunity.
The matter arose in this way. There was a meeting of the Omagh Rural Council on Monday last, at which there was proposed a resolution expressing loyalty to Her Majesty the Queen. The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. O'Neill) moved an amendment to the resolution in which he strongly urged that the council

209
should not adopt the proposal and in the course of which, according to the newspaper report, he described Her Majesty as "a foreign ruler. "The amendment was seconded by a Mr. E. V. M'Cullough, who is a Member of the Northern Ireland Parliament.
The report in the newspaper continues as follows:
"Mr. C. S. Beatty, who proposed the resolution, said Mr. O'Neill and Mr. M'Cullough had already signed declarations of allegiance to the Queen. He supposed these were to be treated as scraps of paper.
MR. O'NEILL—That is what they certainly are.
MR. BEATTY—You signed a declaration of allegiance to draw Her Majesty's money. I do not know what sort of conscience you have."
It seems to me that for an hon. Member to describe the declaration or oath of allegiance, which all hon. Members of this House are required by law to take, as a scrap of paper, amounts to a contempt, since it imputes that a declaration or oath is a meaningless formality.
Apart altogether from considerations of taste, on which hon. Members have, no doubt, formed their own opinions, this statement would also appear to me to be calculated to bring the proceedings of this House into public disrepute. It is, however, a difficult matter and I have searched in vain for any precedent which might cover it. Hence it would seem to me to be a matter of some importance, in which the House should have your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether the matter of complaint which I have raised constitutes a prima facie breach of Privilege.
Copy of newspaper handed in.
Mr. Speaker: I find that the hon. and gallant Member has read the report accurately, so I need not ask the Clerk to read it.
Mr. Michael O'Neill: May I make a reply, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member may be heard, as he has been mentioned.
Mr. O'Neill: There are two mis-statements in the quotation. First, the resolution before Omagh Rural Council was not a resolution of loyalty to the Queen. It was a resolution expressing congratula-
210
tions to Sir Basil Brooke on an honour conferred upon him by the Queen. We object very strongly to such a resolution, because we hold, first, that it is a political matter which should not be introduced at a local government meeting, and, second, because we believe that Sir Basil Brooke did not deserve the honour.
The scrap of paper which was referred to in the report, and which was referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Belfast, North (Lieut.-Colonel Hyde) is a declaration which we in Northern Ireland are compelled to accept on taking our seats in local government bodies in Northern Ireland. We have always protested against this form of coercion, because we know that it does not exist in England, and it is merely a political manoeuvre to compel us to recognise a non-democratic, gerrymander system of local government in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I allowed the hon. Member to make a short statement so that he might have an opportunity of correcting any mis-statements of fact with regard to himself on this matter of Privilege. He must not expand the matter into a general political discussion. If he has anything specifically to deny in the newspaper report, I shall be happy to hear it.
Mr. O'Neill: I have denied the accuracy of the newspaper report. I want to give the House an understanding of what we mean by the declaration to which I referred as a scrap of paper. I want to convey to the House exactly the background of what we mean by referring to this as a scrap of paper.
As the House will know, we have repeatedly tried to bring this matter of local government before the House, but we can never get an opportunity. We are told that local government matters are solely the responsibility of Northern Ireland, and I fail to see why the House should accept responsibility today for local government affairs in Northern Ireland. The particular council is notorious for its gerrymandering——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot allow the discussion to go on along these lines.
The hon. and gallant Member for Belfast, North (Lieut.-Colonel Hyde) was good enough to give me notice that he would raise this matter, and I have care-

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fully considered it in the time at my disposal. The gist of his complaint is that the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. O'Neill) used words to the effect that the declaration of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen, which he had signed, was to be treated as a scrap of paper. The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster has now given us his own account of the affair.
I say, as I always have to say on these occasions, that it is for the House to decide, if the complaint is persisted in, whether such a phrase, if it was used, constitutes a contempt of the House by disparaging the oath of allegiance taken in the House before a Member takes his seat or votes. That is for the House to decide. If there is disputed evidence, the House must come to its own view on the evidence and whether it amounts to a breach of Privilege. My duty is confined to saying whether or not the hon. Member who raised the matter has made out a prima facie case of breach of Privilege so as to give the matter precedence over the Standing Orders for today.
I agree with the hon and gallant Member who raised the matter that there is no strict precedent in this matter to guide us. Indeed, in the light of a decision by the Court of Appeal on the Bradlaugh case on 28th January, 1885, it may be that it would be for a court of law to decide whether a Member who admitted that the statutory oath taken by him had no binding effect upon his conscience, had the right to sit and vote in the House.
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The Court of Appeal, in 1885, said that if Mr. Bradlaugh took his seat and voted as a Member, although he had gone through the form of making and subscribing the oath appointed by the statutes, he would be liable upon information at the suit of the Attorney-General to the penalty imposed by the Parliamentary Oaths Act, 1866, Section 5.
In these circumstances, and with the information that is before me, it seems to me that this is more a matter of law than one to which I should give priority by finding a prima facie case of breach of Privilege. It will, of course, be open to the hon. and gallant Member who raised the matter to put down a Motion on the Order Paper to be dealt with in the ordinary way, if he so pleases.
Mr. Geoffrey Bing: I think it ought to be made clear, Sir, that the declaration which this discussion is about is no oath whatsoever in regard to this House but, as I understand, is a piece of paper pledging allegiance to the particular type of government which goes on in Northern Ireland and which it is necessary for local councillors to sign. It ought to be made clear that that is the position; otherwise, hon. Members are left under a grave cloud of allegations of this sort being made with no opportunity to refute them.
Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me. I gave my Ruling on the complaint, assuming the worst against the hon. Member who had been complained against. I do not find that there is a prima facie case of breach of Privilege.

BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CHARTER)
3.51 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir David Maxwell Fyfe): I beg to move,
That this House approves the proposals of Her Majesty's Government as set out in the Memorandum on the Report of the Broadcasting Committee. 1949. (Command Paper No. 8550).
In rising to move this Motion, I think I am entitled to assume that one difficulty sometimes with us is completely absent: there is no subject which has had so much previous discussion. It is now almost three years since the Beveridge Committee was set up to examine the conditions under which sound and television broadcasting services should be conducted after the expiry of the Charter. We then had their exhaustive Report.
This was followed by the proposals of our predecessors, which were debated in both Houses, and there has naturally been much comment in the editorial, and more in the correspondence, columns of the Press, including a cross examination by leading article in this morning's edition of "The Times," which I shall do my best to answer. Six years ago, in 1946, there was pressure for an outside inquiry and we were reminded that the Beveridge Committee was the first of such inquiries for a period of 14 years. There cannot now be any complaint that these problems have not been well and truly ventilated.
May I say a word about the position of Her Majesty's Government? When we took office the Charter and Licence had only a few weeks to run. We felt we must have further time to make up our minds on the future pattern of broadcasting and for this reason the Charter and Licence were extended for a period of six months, which expires at the end of this month. We have now embodied our conclusions in the White Paper, which was presented last month and which is now before the House.
If approval is given, the draft Charter will be laid before the House as quickly as possible. A new Licence and Agreement will be made and presented to the House for approval under the Standing Orders. The time table, I am afraid, is rather tight, for the new docu-
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ment must come into force on 1st July, but we are in a position to say that the present Governors will be prepared to continue in office for a short period until the new Board is appointed if the necessary approval for that course is obtained.
I should be failing in my duty if I did not express the deep obligation which we are under to Lord Beveridge and his Committee for their full and informative Report. Although we do not agree in all respects with that long series of recommendations that does not lessen our debt, and we join our predecessors in recording our gratitude for this monumental work.
There is another point to which I wish to refer. It is a sobering thought that the B.B.C. has now had 26 years of existence as a corporate body. It has built up, both in peace and war, a reputation which is unsurpassed and, I think, unequalled in any other country. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will wish to join me in a well-deserved tribute to the Corporation and its staff.
In the remarks I shall make to the House, I wish to make it clear that in many respects, as is obvious from the White Paper, Her Majesty's Government find themselves in accord with their predecessors and the Broadcasting Committee. On some matters they suggest alternative arrangements. As obviously very many hon. Members wish to speak, I shall not waste time on things which will not be changed. I shall confine myself to the major and fundamental issues on which the Government suggest innovation. My hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General will deal with other matters of a more detailed character which may be raised.
I wish to say a few words about the duration of the proposed Charter, and in doing so may J give one reason why, although the B.B.C. enjoys so excellent a reputation. it does not follow that no fundamental change can or ought to be contemplated? The technical factors which hitherto have greatly influenced organisation are undergoing great changes. When circumstances make it feasible to give practical effect to the developments which have been achieved in the higher ranges of radio frequency, profound modifications in the pattern of broadcasting should become possible.

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The Broadcasting Committee favoured the grant of a Charter without a time limit, subject to revocation at any time and a review, although not a full inquiry, every five years. This was not favoured by our predecessors and it did not find favour in earlier debates. The general feeling is that on a matter so liable to be fundamentally affected by rapid changes in the technical field we ought not to be bound to a particular pattern for any considerable period.
The proposal that was placed before the House by our predecessors was that the B.B.C. should be granted a Charter for 15 years with a possibility of a limited review within that term. We have come to the conclusion—and so far I have not seen much criticism of it—that it is wiser to make the period 10 years and within that period to have no review, because we think we can thus avoid the disturbance and upheaval which such reviews entail in the work and organisation. The Licence will be for the same period.
I shall refer to and, I hope, cover the changes of importance later, but otherwise the Charter and Licence will follow much the same lines as at present. I hope that on this point, at least, our proposal will commend itself as doing two things—embodying a reasonable period for the B.B.C. to develop its services without disturbance and permitting a future Parliament, at not too distant a date, to review once more the whole pattern of broadcasting.
Let us look at the burning question of monopoly. The Government do not propose to ask Parliament to commit itself to continuation throughout the next 10 years of the B.B.C.'s exclusive privilege of broadcasting in the British Isles. When circumstances make it feasible, and—I have studied the question to the best of my ability—no one can postulate when that will be, some element of competition with the B.B.C. television service will be admitted in frequencies higher than now in use. As the Corporation will continue to be the sole broadcasting authority having any claim on the revenue from licences, the competitors in the field of television will have to provide their own equipment from their own financial resources. This means, in short, that they will have to rely on advertisements and sponsored programmes for their income.
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This question of competition with the B.B.C. and commercial competition in particular, has been one of the chief features of recent discussions. May I, therefore, try to put to the House and weigh up the arguments on both sides as I understand them, and as objectively as I can? As a good Conservative, I put first the arguments for the status quo, which have convinced so many Socialists, and I shall then put the arguments for what is usually termed a radical change, which is largely supported by Conservatives.
Taking the arguments for the monopoly, there is, first, the argument of authority, namely, that successive committees of inquiry have either assumed, from the general regard in which the B.B.C. is held, or in one case concluded—with only one dissentient—after searching examination, that the Corporation's effective monopoly should be preserved. The second argument is that the public service type of programme would not stand up effectively against the competition of commercial interests, and thirdly, that, if such competition were admitted, the social purpose of broadcasting would be destroyed and the interests of minorities neglected. Fourthly, it is urged as almost axiomatic that in the struggle for the largest possible audience commercial stations would pander to the lowest possible denominator of public taste. From that the fifth argument is advanced that programme standards would be debased, and it is said that the Corporation would in its own defence have to follow suit.
Let us look at the arguments for breaking the monopoly. The first is that there is widespread concern in principle about the evils inherent in the monopoly of so potent an instrument as broadcasting, and Lord Reith's own words "the brute force of the monopoly," have not been re-assuring in this regard. The second argument is that monopoly inherently lays itself open to breeding self-satisfaction, lack of initiative and complacency.
The third argument is that listeners and viewers have no opportunity to exercise the sanction of choice to influence what they would wish to see and hear. The fourth argument is that for the artistes and broadcasters there is no alternative employer in their special field; if they fall

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foul of X of the B.B.C., then they are untouchables of the air. Even if one admitted the arguments for the monopoly, which I personally do not, the arguments against would require serious consideration.
The Government's proposals have been represented as no more than a compromise, but this word does not fully represent our attitude. There are two great bodies of opinion, honestly and keenly felt, sincerely and strongly held, and in those circumstances it would be inexcusable for the Government to ignore either of them. After my six months' study of this question, the only people who really annoy me are those who deliberately misrepresent the basis of the opposing point of view.
It is just as ridiculous to suggest that every monopolist is suffering from a senile rush of bogus aestheticism to the brain as to think that every sponsorist is a disguised advertising tout intent on corrupting the public taste. Anyone who has discussed this problem as often as I have done knows the strength and sincerity with which both monopolists and sponsorers hold their opinions, and we have tried to put forward an answer which takes account of the opposing views.
I know that we are all proud to be party men, pre-disposed and easily led to magnify each ditch that divides us into an impassable gulf. I know the unpopularity of moderation, yet I should regret to come to the belief that in this matter moderation is beyond us. I like to remember the words of an old Member of this House, well known to you. Sir, and to me:
"There is a moderation which is itself a fire, whose enthusiasm burns as fiercely for the whole truth as it commonly does for half truths, whose toleration becomes not a policy but an act of religion."
I agree that the exits from our House are white with the bones of such would-be moderates, but let us give a passing sigh of respect to moderation before we return to our perennial pastime of cheerful mutual abuse.
For those who are not already ensconced on the battlements of dogma, who have felt some disturbance at the prospect before us, there are three points which must be emphasised, for they are the essential concomitants of this change of policy. The first is that we maintain
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the broadcasting services of the B.B.C. intact, and with first call on resources, to provide adequate national broadcasting services throughout the United Kingdom.
For reasons only too familiar to hon. Members, arising from our economic circumstances the B.B.C.'s programme of television development has had to be retarded, and apart from experimental transmissions very high frequency sound broadcasting remains a thing of the future.
We intend that the B.B.C. shall be allotted the resources to complete its programme of lower-power television stations and to make reasonable progress with the introduction of high frequency sound broadcasting before any competitor is admitted to a share of the national resources. What this means in the way of time-lag it would, as I have indicated, be rash of me to attempt to prophesy, for it is so intimately bound up with the whole of our economic future.
The second of these three points is that there will be a controlling body for the sponsored stations. We are in the field of experiment; we have not, and cannot have, a cut-and-dried plan as to the precise pattern which the experiment will assume, and much remains to be done in the time before the development becomes possible.
We are, therefore, clear that a controlling body is necessary, first, to guard against possible abuses; secondly, to regulate the conduct of the new stations; and thirdly, to advise on bodies or persons to whom licences for new stations shall be granted. These matters will be pursued so that we may be ready when the time for active development arrives. I have no doubt that we shall derive much advice and guidance in the course of this debate.
My third point, which is also of great importance, is our proposed Parliamentary control of the terms and conditions of sponsored television. Hon. Members will bear in mind that the terms and conditions on which competitive television would operate would be subject to the consideration and control of Parliament. Therefore, whatever the views and the arguments, the importance of each of these three points cannot. I think, be under-estimated.
I now come to examine the argument that there will be a lowering of standards

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and a debasement of the national taste. In order to find our way to a common-sense and practical solution likely to meet with a great measure of public acceptance, it is quite a good plan to be guided by the essential facts. There is another angle from which the fact that the B.B.C. is to remain intact, with an assured income from licence revenue, is of vital importance. The provision in the licence prohibiting the B.B.C. from engaging in commercial broadcasting will be maintained. There will be no change in the policy of the B.B.C. towards sponsoring or advertising.
Therefore, there can be no fear that any television viewer in this country would have no choice but to look at a sponsored programme. The B.B.C. television service is available as an alternative and, as I have indicated, it will have a very good start. It will remain inviolate. There will be no encroachment, whether by an outside body hiring time or in any other way.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: When the right hon. and learned Gentleman says there will be no encroachment, does he mean there will be no question of a commercial advertiser buying up B.B.C. programmes and sponsoring them, or employing B.B.C. technicians?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: There will be no question of their coming into the B.B.C programme or getting B.B.C. time. They will have to do it from their own stations and with their own resources.
Mr. Mayhew: I do not think the right hon. and learned Gentleman quite understood my point, and it is important. Could not they use their financial resources, for instance, to employ B.B.C. technicians and indeed buy a whole programme and put it on their sponsoring network?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I think the hon. Gentleman has put the question too widely for a specific answer. I have made it quite clear that they cannot encroach on the B.B.C. programmes by hiring time, or in any other way. They have to do it themselves. We do not propose to lay down any rule as to how they will recruit their staff or where they will get their programmes. I am not doing this in a militant way at all.
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I am trying to put the points to the House, and I am very anxious to put them as fairly as possible. The hon. Gentleman may blame my stupidity, but I am trying to answer his point clearly, as I understand it. What I am not going to do is to say there will be some prohibition in advance on anyone who is employed by, or who serves, the B.B.C. from being employed by or serving any other organisation.
The point I have made—and I think it is a fair one, and one to which weight has not been attached in this controversy—is that this is not a comparison. This does not bear comparison with places where there are only sponsored programmes. It is our intention to let the B.B.C. go on, as I say, intact, without encroachment; and after all, with an income of £11,500,000 a year, which is increasing at the rate of £1 million a year, and the flying start I have described, it cannot be said that in this country the television viewer will be confined to sponsored programmes. He may make a choice. Now let us analyse what is inherent in his making the choice——
Mr. Joseph Reeves Mr. Joseph Reeves (Greenwich) rose——
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: May I complete this point? I will give way to the hon. Member in a moment.
It is frequently said, despite the existing and favourable position of the B.B.C, that commercial competition must inevitably lead to a debasement of programme standards. I hope that hon. Members will not be tempted to align coinage and broadcasting. A cliche of this disputation of which I am extremely tired is that broadcasting will follow Gresham's Law that bad currency drives out good.
Mr. M. Follick: What I should like to know is who is to get all the licence money? Will that still go to the B.B.C?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I did make it quite clear that the income from the licences, less the 15 per cent. which the last Government and this Government have deducted, will go to the B.B.C. The B.B.C. gets that income. The sponsors do not get any income from licences. I did say that, and I want to make it clear again. If there is any doubt I am glad to make that certain to everyone.

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I was saying that I was extremely tired of everyone dressing up the argument with this horrible cliché from Gresham's Law; because in my view what is true when the matter in question is an opportunity of clipping the coinage seems to me to bear little application to turning on a programme. It is certainly meaningless symbolism—whether or not the views of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have changed as to what are meaningless symbols. It does seem to me a highly paradoxical situation that competition has been praised in all quarters of the House as a stimulus to efficiency and an incentive to development, yet once there is any mention of sponsoring these consequences are forgotten and it is assumed that in the broadcasting world standards will be reduced and debased.
It would be foolish to ignore the point. It would be equally foolish to accept as axiomatic that such debasement must follow. I am not impressed by analogies from the United States—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]—We have our typical British way of resolving problems of taste, just like any other problem. We are a much more mature and sophisticated people. Is it really to be suggested——
Mr. Herbert Morrison: Sounds like anti-Americanism.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The right hon. Gentleman has forgotten that he has handed back the seals of the Foreign Office, and must not make points of that kind. I am very surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should be the person to take me to task for paying a compliment to our own fellow citizens which I think is entirely deserved.
Is it really to be suggested that such a people as ours are unfit to decide what they want to see on the air; that some foolish metallic analogy is to be the measure and touchstone of their mood and spirit? Are they unfit for anything but the governess state? If that is the view of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, in my respectful submission it is the very pap of nonsense.
It is, then, argued that if an element of competition is desirable in principle, why should it be confined to television? Let me deal with the point. In the field of sound broadcasting, this country has already in most areas a choice of pro-
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grammes with regional variations, and the number of listeners so served will increase as high frequency services are introduced. On the other hand, in television the service is of recent growth. There is only one central service and it is still in course of development. It seems to me reasonable, and I hope that it will so appeal to the House, to choose this field for what is an experiment in the departure from monopoly.
As a medium for advertising, television offers certain advantages over the sound programmes. It may prove to be the way in which sponsoring can earn its revenue and acclimatise itself to British taste. which is quite different from American taste, in a field where British taste is still in a formative stage.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: Since my right hon. and learned Friend has been extolling the virtues of sponsored programmes on television, can he say whether there is any reason why they should not extend to radio as well? Why is this protection put upon sound and this liberty extended to television?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I am sorry. I do not know when my hon. Friend came in or whether I have just been especially unclear. I have just indicated that. For what it is worth, I am prepared to repeat my argument so that my hon. Friend will understand as well as hear. I have just indicated that in sound broadcasting the country has already in most areas a choice of programme with regional variations and that the number of listeners served is increasing, and will increase as higher frequency services are introduce——
Mr. C. R. Hobson Mr. C. R. Hobson (Keighley) rose——
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I can answer only one question at a time. The hon. Gentleman will be fair to me. I am trying to answer my hon. Friend. After I have made that attempt, I will willingly give way, but the hon. Gentleman will remember that "One at a time, gentlemen, please" is a sound principle.
That is the position with regard to sound broadcasting. There are these choices available. But, as I have indicated, there is not the same choice available in television which is at an earlier stage and, therefore, at a time in which sponsoring can come in and acclimatise itself to taste which is still in a formative

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stage. There is that difference. If one has to make a decision as to where to admit sponsoring, it is right to admit it in the television field. I hope that my hon. Friend will not misunderstand me. I had already made that point. I am sure that he will not think that I meant to be offensive. Would the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) like to ask this question?
Mr. Hobson: I wanted to ask whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman will tell us where in this country high frequency broadcasting is at present taking place.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I said that at the moment it was only in the experimental stage. There was another hon. Gentleman who wanted to ask a question. I do not know whether I have gone too far, but I do not want to treat him with discourtesy and I should be willing to reply to him now.
Mr. Reeves: The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to very high frequency as a thing of the future. He said that nothing would be done until it had been established—in other words, that the B.B.C. would be permitted to develop very high frequency before it was undertaken competitively. Does that refer also to colour television? The B.B.C. has undertaken a good deal of experimental work in the development of colour. But for the fact that we are short of capital. that work would have been developed further.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: My hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General will deal with that point. I am anxious that we should not leave the general argument to deal with minor technical aspects, but I will certainly have the point looked up.
There is another subsidiary question which might be asked: What has become of the Committee's recommendation that power should be reserved to licence, after consultation with the B.B.C, aproved bodies, such as universities, to give local services? On this the Government have not put forward any proposals, because they consider it so remote. This can be reviewed at a future date. Our main objective is to enable the B.B.C. to launch very high frequency sound broadcasting when resources permit, and to deal with the field of television.
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I shall now deal with the question of the appointment of the Governors and the National Councils. In the past the Government of the day had absolute power over the Corporation through the ultimate sanction of advising the Crown to dismiss the Board of Governors. The White Paper on Broadcasting published in 1946 recognised, first, that the temptation to use the State's control of broadcasting for its own political ends should be removed from the party in power. That was the view expressed by the Government of that day. Secondly, it recognised that the Corporation's independence in day-to-day management should be continued.
Her Majesty's present advisers propose not only to continue the B.B.C.'s traditional independence in programme and administrative methods, but to take more positive steps designed to safeguard the Corporation within the framework of the Charter and Licence. There are three minor changes, and one major change. The position of the Governors will be defined only by the Charter within which they will have unrestricted authority and power of decision. Secondly, they are to be given discretion to announce that a veto has been imposed if a Government should prohibit a broadcast. Thirdly, except in emergency, the B.B.C. will be free from the present obligation to broadcast "other matter" as well as "announcements" at the request of any Government Department.
The major change lies in the proposal that Governors should no longer be appointed and liable to be removed by Order in Council. Hon. Members will have seen in paragraph 18 of the White Paper the body which it is suggested should make the appointments. That body would be able to operate in the absence of one or two of its members, although we are in favour of a quorum of three.
In supporting the change, it is not part of my argument that any Prime Minister in the past has not exercised his responsibility impartially, nor is it part of my argument that any Governor has been influenced in his duty by political associations. Nevertheless, the Governors are the Corporation. They are in a position of immense power to influence men's thoughts and minds and, in this light, the appointments are literally unique.

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The proposal to delegate the powers of appointment and dismissal to a committee of eminent persons of undoubted integrity does not, therefore, arise from any failure in the past, but it is a reasonable change to ensure no derogation in the future. The new procedure will ensure that covert steps cannot at any time be taken to subordinate the Corporation to political ends.
It is suggested that, because within the Charter the Governors are the paramount authority, the proposal to alter the manner of appointment will in some degree deprive Parliament of an opportunity of bringing Ministers to book. This, I think, would be a better point if the House had not so many and varied ways of expressing its views on the conduct of the Corporation. Hon. Members must not overlook the fact that, although the ultimate source of 4he income is the licence fees, the B.B.C. depends for almost the whole of its income on supplies granted by Parliament, and there are, therefore, many opportunities for ventilating and enforcing the views of Parliament.
I do not pretend to be exhaustive, but may I give a few examples? If in the course of giving them, I assume certain Rulings of yours, Mr. Speaker, you will understand that that is only an hypothesis in order to put my view before the House. There is the debate which can take place on the Broadcasting Vote: the B.B.C. is dependent on the House for the grant of money. There are inquiries by Select Committees. There are debates on White Papers, such as we are having now. There are Motions to approve the B.B.C. Licence under the Standing Orders, and particularly Standing Order No. 87.
There are Questions that fall within Ministerial responsibilities. I am not going to weary the House by going through all the subjects which can be matters of question. I have satisfied myself that there are at least eight important matters on which Questions can be asked, including external services, television, home services on sound, very high frequency from the technical point of view, reports and accounts, finance, and even some aspects of the staff. These, I think, are indisputable.
Mr. H. Morrison: Questions cannot be put down on programmes, or anything affecting them.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I do not want to contradict the right hon. Gentleman, but I am sure that he could verify whether or not I am wrong. With regard to home services on sound, the powers are mainly limited to technical matters, but there are also the subsidiary features, such as the hours of broadcasting, on which Questions can be put down. Then there is the question of imposing a veto on broadcasting any matter, which is the responsibility of the Postmaster-General. and the question of announcements and other matter which Departments are entitled to request.
I agree that it is limited, but, indeed, the answer to the right hon. Gentleman's point is that, on every view that has ever been suggested, programmes and day-today management have been kept out of Questions in this House. What I am now dealing with—I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will face the point—is that it is being suggested, as an objection to our Committee of appointment, that that is an interference with the powers of Parliament.
I am pointing out that there are all these matters which I have just put to the House by which Parliament can enforce its powers, and in fact, in 26 years—and again I give the right hon. Gentleman the opportunity of correcting me—I can find no case where Parliament has sought to exercise its powers by getting rid of, or persuading the Government to get rid of, a Governor. If the right hon. Gentleman can give me one case, I will willingly give way.
Mr. William Ross: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman allow me to interrupt, as this is an important point? Does he not consider that it is rather invidious that the Chairman of this Committee is to be the Speaker of the House of Commons, while many of these matters can only be discussed if Mr. Speaker permits?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: They can only be discussed, if Mr. Speaker permits it, by, I should have thought, the rules which are well established in the practice of this House. The hon. Gentleman must not misunderstand me. It is the fact that, whenever an hon. Member of

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this House mentions a Ruling, out of courtesy to the Chair he mentions the Ruling on the assumption that the Chair would so rule, but that is not to suggest that there has been the slightest difficulty about delimiting the ground in the past by the rules.
Therefore, when the House of Commons has financial control, when it has all these methods of ventilating its views, apart altogether from its ultimate right of legislation, the suggestion that our proposal detracts from the privileges and responsibilities of this House, in a field in which it has always recognised the importance of the independence of the B.B.C. in its day-to-day management, is one that, in my view, cannot seriously be regarded.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his view on this point, because we are trying to give expression to what has been proclaimed by the party opposite, as by ourselves, as being the objective to which they and we are pledged and wedded, and that is to keep the B.B.C. out of politics and political controversy.
I now come to the question of the national bodies, and may I just remind the House of the genesis of this matter. The Broadcasting Committee—that is, Lord Beveridge's Committee—recommended that national bodies should be appointed under the chairmanship of the Governors in Scotland and Wales, and, if the Government of Northern Ireland so desired, in that country; and this met with general approval in previous debates.
There has been a marked difference of opinion on the methods of selecting the membership. The Government felt that these Broadcasting Councils should have certain executive powers as well as advisory functions, and I want the House to appreciate that. I do not believe that either Scotland or Wales would be content with a body that had not some executive powers as well as advisory functions. I have tried very hard to discover Welsh opinion on this point, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has done the same for Scotland. We came to the conclusion, and I stand here to justify that conclusion, that they should have certain executive powers.
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The second conclusion to which we came was that, in order to ensure efficiency, they should not be unduly large. Therefore, we have in mind that the Councils in Scotland and Wales should have eight members formally appointed by the Corporation but selected by a panel of the B.B.C. Advisory Council, whose present Chairman is Lord Halifax. Five members will be representative of cultural, religious and other interests, and three of local authorities in the countries concerned.
I am well aware that, on the question of composition, we cannot please everyone, and that there are bound to be some people displeased by whatever decision we reach, but I want the House to understand how we arrived at that result and the reasons I think it was a good one. The precise manner of arriving at the selection of the members will be for the panel of the General Advisory Council to decide, but I believe that this is a most important matter for those who are anxious that our national way of life should have actual vocal and physical expression.
I want now to say a word about Northern Ireland. I have been informed by the Government of Northern Ireland that they have come to the conclusion that they do not at the present moment want a Council there, but that they might wish to have one later. The Charter will make appropriate provisions in conformity with their wishes.
As regards the powers to be delegated to the national Councils, this is a matter upon which there has been considerable comment. Indeed, it is one of the questions on which "The Times" was good enough to quote me in its interrogatory leading article this morning. Therefore, I want to deal with the point. Again, I believe the difficulty has been greatly exaggerated.
The detailed function of powers to be delegated to the Councils will be for the Governors to determine, and if hon. Members will look at paragraph 21 they will see how what I am saying follows. The Governors will have a discretion to reserve matters for their own decision in the interest of the due co-ordination and coherent administration of the Corporation. Finance and capital development will be dealt with centrally: in these respects, the functions of the Councils will

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be advisory. Party political broadcasts would continue to be governed by the arrangements made between the principal parties and the B.B.C. I think they have worked well. There have, of course, been criticisms of certain things but, on the whole, they have by agreement worked well, and I think we should stick to them.
The Corporation will also have power to ensure at all times that a co-ordinated national Home Service sound programme will be available for special broadcasts. I will not go into details: hon. Members will appreciate the sort of occasion I have in mind. But, subject to these requirements and the general obligations imposed on the Corporation by the Charter or Licence, the intention is that the Councils should control the policy and content of the Home Service sound programme of the country concerned, with full regard to the distinctive cultural interest and taste of the people there. That is the position as to the programme, and I hope I have made it clear.
I now want to deal with the point at which criticism has been levelled. The critics say that the Director-General ought to be able to give his orders to Scotland and Wales. I say no. I say that the only point on which the central body should interfere should be one so important that the Director-General will take it to the Board. The Board will meet and come to a decision, and then they can give their instructions. That is the safety valve, and for the extraordinary occasion.
In the ordinary way, I cannot see why local Councils should not be able to do the job of work I have described. I shall listen carefully to what hon. Members say, but at the moment I am totally unable to see why this tremendous worry about that proposal has arisen among people for whom I have a very great respect.
I will now say a word about the staff because, again, I think there has been some misapprehension there. The Councils will be responsible for the appointment of the staff who would be wholly engaged in their affairs.
Mr. Edward Shackleton: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an example of a member of the B.B.C. regional staff who would be wholly engaged in a Home programme, because there is no such person?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. He will have
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to develop that point before he gets my agreement. It was certainly not the impression I got when making my visits, but I think it would be more convenient if the hon. Gentleman developed it, when I will listen to him with very great attention, because at the moment, unfortunately, I do not agree with him.
The matter is limited to the staff who would be wholly engaged in the affairs of the B.B.C. and there will, of course, be a general obligation on the Corporation to engage them on their usual terms. I wish to make it clear that there are, and must be, certain reservations implicit in this, because it would clearly be improper to bind the Corporation to take into and to retain in its service without question each and every person who might be nominated on whatever terms, however unreasonable. There must be some reservation there, and the Government have it in mind to ask the Chairman of the General Advisory Council to act as a sort of arbiter in, I hope, the unlikely event of difficulty arising between the Corporation and the Councils.
For Northern Ireland and the English regions, the Charter will provide for the delegation to the regional controller of powers giving him reasonable independence and initiative for the Home Service sound programme. I am told that is really a recognition of the status quo. Secondly, the Advisory Councils will be nominated by the B.B.C. as before, and the Government understand that the Corporation are giving effect to the recommendation that they should be more representative.
Mr. Ross: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman say a word about the regional controllers in Scotland and Wales? Who appoints them and to whom are they responsible? Are they responsible to the B.B.C. or to the Broadcasting Council of the new national set-up?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: On the vast majority of questions they will be responsible to the Broadcasting Council. It will be subject to the point which I tried to explain. It is this. Suppose the Director-General has points of difference with the national Councils and goes to the Board of Governors who, say, including the Chairman of the Scottish Board, come to a decision upholding the Director-General, then the regional controller must

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take his order on that point from the Board of Governors.
Mr. Gordon Walker: Who appoints him?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Just for the moment that point has gone out of my head. I am sorry, but I will find out for the right hon. Gentleman.
I now want to say a word on finance. As I indicated earlier, the 85 per cent. of the net revenue is our predecessors' proposal and we suggest that should be the income for the first three years of the Charter. There is no difference between us on that point. We keep the provision that should the Corporation ask at any time for an increase in the proportion, that must be considered against the economic background and the purposes to which the Corporation intend to devote the extra revenue.
Again, like our predecessors, we believe that the impact will be mainly felt on the Corporation's provision for future capital expenditure, and, like our predecessors, we suggest allowing them to borrow up to £10 million. Therefore, as far as I can see, there is no difference over the financial aspect. However, I will not weary the House by going further into it.
The only other point, which again I am sure the House will be relieved to know I can only mention at this stage, but for another reason, is the position with regard to copyright for sporting and dramatic events both for sound broadcasting and television. This is a complex problem, as again our predecessors recognised. In some cases there is a concern mainly to ensure that events available for television to the home are not passed on to other audiences, whether paying or not. In other cases the main fear is in respect of the loss or gain of a paying audience and that is closely linked with television for public showing in cinemas and elsewhere. In others there is a reluctance that even home viewers should share access to sporting events.
Our approach, which is set out in paragraph 29 of the White Paper, agrees with that of our predecessors. A Committee on Copyright is now sitting and has taken evidence from the interests concerned i cannot anticipate, and I do not think the House will expect me to anticipate, their
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findings. But may I express this personal view—which I hope the House will share—that it is unreasonable that listeners in the home or viewers either in the home or in places of public entertainment should be denied sound or sight of those public spectacles or sporting events which are of overwhelming interest and appeal and are in fact part of our national life? We can only hope for an amicable settlement, reconciling private interests with those of the public at large. This is not a matter in which the Government would seek to impose a settlement, but the Postmaster-General will bear the problem in mind when he issues licences for any form of competitive television.
I sincerely apologise to the House for the length of time that I have taken, but I thought it would be satisfactory if I tried to cover the problems which I know are in all hon. Members' minds. We all agree that we stand at an important stage in the development of our broadcasting services, and I am sure that the House will approach at least its discussion, however it may ultimately vote, with its traditional attitude of keeping this subject as far as possible outside party strife.
We all seek to frame a system that is best calculated to meet the wishes and the best interests of this country, a system, as I say, free from Parliamentary polemics and at once entertaining and educational. I have worked at this matter reasonably hard through the past six months and I believe our proposals have been designed with this aim. I therefore commend them to the favourable consideration of the House.
4.53 p.m.
Mr. Herbert Morrison: I beg to move, to leave out from "House," to the end of the Question. and to add instead thereof:
"while welcoming the Government's proposal in the Memorandum on the Report of the Broadcasting Committee, 1949 (Command Paper No. 8550), to renew for a further period of ten years the Charter and Licence of the British Broadcasting Corporation, regrets the implication contained in that Memorandum of an intention to introduce at some time during the period of the new Charter the commercial sponsorship of television; and further regrets the proposal to substitute for the present method of appointing the Governors the creation of an Appointing Committee who will have no responsibility to Parliament."
There was a reference in the chat column of the "Daily Telegraph" the

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other day to the Home Secretary. He may know that column, which I believe is edited by a Conservative Member of Parliament. The reference was to the effect that the Home Secretary was a very busy man and that obviously he had little time to study and listen-in to broadcasts or to watch television. Nevertheless, the paper stated he would take this debate, and the writer was confident that he would take it well for, it was said, he is very good at handling a tricky brief at short notice.
It is of interest that the case for sponsoring has been stated in this House by a distinguished lawyer and that the main speaker, certainly the speaker who appeared to speak with the greatest emphasis on it, in another place was another distinguished lawyer. There was a poet, Stephen Phillips, whom I studied as a young man, who once wrote:
"Oh thou art put to many uses sweet." Perhaps that is true of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that broadcasting in itself is not normally the subject of acute party division between the parties in this House. Indeed, there is more than one view about broadcasting among the political parties, and I suppose every citizen in the country has his own individual opinion about B.B.C. programmes. Indeed, it was indicated in the debate in another place, to which I must not refer in detail, that there were many divisions of opinion among the noble Lords on the Government side.
I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman in thanking Lord Beveridge and his Committee, on which Members of this House sat, for the splendid work they did. It was hard work and they did it well. We ought also to express our appreciation of the Governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation, the Chairman, Lord Simon of Wythenshawe, and others who are serving now as Governors, and those who have served in earlier years as well. I think it would be right that we might all agree on both sides in paying a warm tribute to the Director-General, Sir William Haley, for the services he has rendered to broadcasting and to his country in the highly tricky and difficult job of Director-General, to congratulate him and "The Times" on his appointment as editor and to let him know that we shall watch "The Times"
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with interest when he becomes the occupant of the editorial chair. Anyway, we wish him well.
Another man in connection with broadcasting to whom we should pay our tribute, who has been the subject of strong criticism in past years but is now praised in all quarters, is Lord Reith. In early years he played a most notable and outstanding part in building up our broadcasting system, and it is a comfort to me to know that he is strongly opposed to commercial sponsoring. The B.B.C. and the Directors-General have always had their critics, and they always will.
It is interesting that the B.B.C. hardly ever answers back. The B.B.C. must be almost the only British institution that rarely answers back. It almost turns the cheek to the smiter, but it does seek and take account of criticism. It does not always do what we would wish, but it takes account of criticism. It is all the more remarkable in the circumstances that all of us, by and large, feel and boast, whilst having our grumbles, that British broadcasting, and possibly British television as well, and the services of the B.B.C. as a whole, are probably the best to be found anywhere in the world.
I wish to make very brief reference to some of the lesser matters of argument that appear in the White Paper, and to come to two points mentioned in the Opposition Amendment later on. In paragraph 5 of the White Paper there is reference to the intention to have additional safeguards about politics. We ought to know at the right time what those additional safeguards about politics are. I do not follow them, unless they be the appointing committee for the Governors. If that is what is meant we will discuss it in due course, but there is a general reference to further safeguards against the introduction of politics. I do not see what safeguards are there and, indeed, I am not arguing that further safeguards are necessary.
As to paragraph 12 I agree with the period of 10 years, and presumably there will be an enquiry of the customary sort at the end of the 10 years. Inquiries involve a very heavy strain on the staff of the B.B.C. in getting ready, giving the evidence and, if I may say so, getting over it and waiting for the Government to come to conclusions. It is a big strain

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upon them, and I think the Corporation is entitled to reasonable security and to be given its head over a reasonable period of years.
But it is right that the inquiry should take place from time to time just as it is right that inquiries should take place from time to time in connection with other public corporations in the industrial field. I presume that we would understand from the Home Secretary that if, however, a case should arise for special review or inquiry within the 10 years, if special unforeseen circumstances arise, it would be competent for the Government and Parliament to consider whether a special inquiry should be instituted. I gather that that would be so.
There is reference in paragraph 14 to the British Broadcasting Corporation Staff Association and the trade unions. This is a difficult matter which has been argued for a good many years, but one of the points in the argument is quite simple—namely, that the B.B.C. surely ought to recognise the trade unions who have an adequate and substantial proportion of members of the staff. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North-West (Mr. O'Brien) has been engaged in discussions on this matter with the General Council of the T.U.C., and I think the B.B.C. has been rather slow in recognising that some changes must be made, even though it is a national service which everybody would agree cannot be interrupted. The matter really should be settled and the terms of the settlement should be known.
The White Paper says that it hopes that an early settlement will be reached. I do not think that is good enough myself. In staff matters I would urge upon the Corporation that they should use an officer who understands the problems and organisations involved. There are men of that kind to be got. They may have such men in the service now, but it does need somebody who understands this; otherwise they can get into a mess, and I think we ought to know from the Assistant Postmaster-General the Government's view on what ought to be done.
I agree with paragraph 17 that the Governors are supreme. Indeed, as I said myself in an earlier debate, and as the Home Secretary said this afternoon,
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the Governors are the Corporation, and they should not regard themselves—indeed, they are not required to regard themselves—as a mere advisory committee to the Director-General. They are the masters of the show. They are the captains of the ship. [Laughter.] What is the matter now? Is somebody trying to start a party row about something? If I only knew what it was I could join in, but I do not follow what the joke is.
There is being canvassed the question whether there should be one or more Directors-General. I am doubtful about that. Anyway, if the power was put in—and I would sooner it were not put in—I hope there would not be more than one Director-General. I once had the experience of running the Ministry of Supply for a short time with two permanent secretaries, and when I reached a certain point one of them had to go somewhere else, because it is a dreary life trying to run two permanent secretaries of equal status under a Minister. I would not advise the Government to pursue this course. I think that one or more assistant Directors-General is right and that this is a desirable permissive power; whilst the Director-General has day-to-day executive responsibility, that of course does not derogate from the authority and the general power of the Governors of the Corporation.
With regard to the Broadcasting Councils for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland is now out of it, and I am not surprised that the Government of Northern Ireland have thought that they would prefer to be without a National Council; otherwise there might have been more difficulty with that rural district council in Northern Ireland to which reference was made earlier today. This raises some issues upon which there can be more than one opinion, but we would most certainly agree that the special needs of Scotland and Wales, and indeed of the English regions, should always be sympathetically considered, and it is a good proposal that the Governor should visit these regional bodies and the Scottish and Welsh bodies from time to time. We accepted the general idea in our own White Paper, and we do so now.

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There are, however, some points that require special consideration. I was going to mention Northern Ireland, but evidently special consideration has already been given on the spot. As to the appointment of regional staff for the Home service, my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) has raised a point upon that.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me? I think I can help him; I can certainly help his hon. Friend. I did verify that point. The controllers are appointed by the B.B.C. They have certain duties of a general character. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for not being able to explain that fully before.
Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged. Some practical problems will arise about the appointment of staff, not only from the point of view of the successful running of the undertaking, but it may be from the point of view of the staff themselves, because these men may get stuck, especially if the Corporation itself has another view as to their abilities. Problems of promotion will arise and, of course, there are problems of conditions and terms of service.
It is desirable to preserve, as far as is technically possible, the free choice of programmes by listeners as between the Scottish service and the other Home service and between the Welsh service and the other Home service. I am not sure that it is technically possible, but it is a point worth keeping in mind so that the Scottish and the Welsh listeners would have a completely free choice as to which service they should listen to.
I do not think that the National Councils should be chosen by a panel of the General Advisory Council. I think it is too remote and too distant, and indeed I should be inclined to think that the Government ought to accept responsibility for the appointment of these bodies so that questions can be raised in the House about it. I note that the councils are not to be paid, apart from the national chairmen, and I do not quarrel with that. I think that is right. I presume that expenses that are reasonable and proper would be paid. I agree about the Ministerial responsibility to the extent there should be no special and separate Minister for broadcasting. It is largely a matter between the Postmaster-General
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and the Prime Minister, but the Prime Minister, of course, can use a senior colleague to assist him if he so wishes.
Now I come to the appointing trustees. This arose in connection with the London Passenger Transport Bill which I introduced in 1931, which the National Government amended by introducing appointing trustees later when they came to take over the Bill. They had to do something to amend the Bill because they had strongly opposed it while in opposition, and they seized on this appointing trustee device, which nobody took very seriously at the time, as a way of taking the Socialism out of the London Passenger Transport Bill. It was, of course, nonsense, and behind the Chair it was recognised on both sides of the House to be nonsense, but it comforted hon. Members, and why should they not be comforted? But I never liked it, and I am going to argue strongly against this proposal now.
Presumably the idea behind this proposal is that some Prime Minister or Government might take liberties and that possibly they ought not to be trusted. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he was not going to complain about unfairness in appointing Governors up to now. I do not think we have really reached the point when we cannot trust Prime Ministers, Postmasters-General and Governments to be fair in making these appointments.
I could make a case that Labour was not adequately represented among the Governors before the war. I do not think we were. I think usually there was only one recognisable Labour person in those days. There was not a majority of known Labour people when we were in office. On the contrary, there was a minority. There were some known Conservatives, and some others whose politics were not particularly identifiable, which may or may not be a good sign from any point of view.
I think that any hon. Member opposite would agree that we were fair in making the appointments we did. Indeed, the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself says that he is making no allegation of unfairness against either side of the House in the making of past appointments, but he was apprehensive that some day somebody might come along and make a sort of political dictatorship of the B.B.C. Now, if he is thinking of the Communists

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he is thinking of something that is most unlikely to happen. If he is thinking of the Fascists he is thinking of something that is unlikely to happen.
I assure the Home Secretary that if there is a Communist or a Fascist Government of this country—and they are much the same—they will not bother about White Papers on the B.B.C. or the Charter of the B.B.C, or even the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. Their first act will be to give directions to various people; and probably the Left-Wing members of the Labour Party will be the first people that a Communist Government would send to prison. Therefore, it is no good trying to make paper provision against situations of that kind. In a revolutionary situation there are revolutionary results, and they are very regrettable.
What I complain about in this appointing trustees idea is that we are thereby severing almost the only general continuing link between Parliament and the British Broadcasting Corporation. First of all, the fact that the Government have got to answer to Parliament for the appointment of Governors is one of the ways of keeping the Government straight in making appointments. Secondly, if something went seriously wrong with the B.B.C, from the point of view of Parliament it would be competent for the House of Commons to ask the Government to make a change in the composition of the Governors. I am not saying it is likely that we shall do so. This appointment of the Governors by Her Majesty's Government is a most important and fundamental Parliamentary point as regards certain rights of Parliament vis-a-vis the British Broadcasting Corporation.
I am trying to make my remarks in a not unduly provocative way, because I want to encourage the Government to alter their minds and not to dig their heels in, but I must say it is extraordinary that this proposal, which is a notable weakening of Parliamentary influence over a public Corporation, should come at the very time when Conservative Members of Parliament have been busy for months—anyway until the Election—in demanding greater Parliamentary accountability and control over the public corporations established by the Labour Government.
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Whatever possessed the mind of the Government—and I am saying this with great respect—at a time when Conservative M.P.s have been complaining about insufficient Parliamentary influence over public corporations—and when actually there is a Select Committee at work, appointed on the Motion of this Government to go into it—to snap this important link between Parliament and the B.B.C. in the accountability of the Government to the House of Commons for the appointments?
I beg the Government to reconsider that matter, because there really must be responsibility to Parliament for the appointment of the Governors. It is the best way to prevent jobbery and improper influences. I hope that point will be conceded, otherwise there are all sorts of dangerous possibilities. If people assume that Governments are the only people who can have favourites or be got at, believe me, they are generally wrong, because Governments have got to think about this House in whatever they do, and that is a good thing. But if individual trustees are to have a big voice in this, it is infinitely easier for backstairs influence to be brought to bear on individual trustees of a Committee of this sort.
Now let us look at this Committee and its composition. It is argued that it is desirable for politics to be kept out of it. What do they do? The Government propose to appoint the two party leaders as members of the Committee. Well, nobody will accuse the Prime Minister of not being a politician. Although my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is more impartial than the Prime Minister and has a broader outlook on affairs, I am bound to admit that my right hon. Friend is a politician as well. So we get the two leading politicians in the House of Commons on the Committee in an effort to keep politics out of the selection of the Governors!
Consider the fetters that will be placed upon the Leader of the Opposition. The Committee meets; there is give and take—possibly; there are discussions, and ultimately a settlement is reached; the list is published, and my hon. Friends on the back benches, and those outside, may complain most vigorously that the Labour movement has been let down in the composition of the Board of

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Governors, and that Labour—which is an important and respectable element of the community—is hardly there at all.
What is my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to do? [HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."] I gather the proposal is that he should resign from the Committee, but that would create an awkward situation. [Laughter.] I hope I have got as much sense of humour as anybody, but I am trying to argue this case seriously. He would be in a very difficult position. If he criticises or denounces decisions of the Committee he is not "playing ball" with his colleagues on the Committee, and if he does not he will be in trouble with his own friends and associates in the Labour movement here and outside. I think that is a difficult position for him.
Mr. Speaker is to be the chairman. I think that is putting Mr. Speaker in a very difficult position, because, whoever is appointed to the Board of Governors, it can easily be controversial, and we should not put the Speaker of the House in a position—as chairman, moreover—whereby he can be shot at by newspapers and public opinion for appointments that are wrong. Who did invent this idea? I could make a guess but I will not. I submit it is unwise.
When the appointments are made Questions may be asked in the House of Commons—or attempts made to ask Questions—about the appointments of the Governors, and I know what Mr. Speaker will do, because he has got to do it: He will rule them out of order on the ground that no Minister is responsible for the appointments—and he will be right. Then there will be a row with Mr. Speaker and points of order as to whether he is right or not, and possibly an associated point of order about "What did he do as chairman of the appointing trustees anyway?" That does seem to me to be an unhappy and unfortunate situation.
Then we have the element of respectability brought in—the Lord Chief Justice of England and the Lord President of the Court of Session in Scotland. Now, I understand the motive. The Government wanted somebody respectable, somebody non-political—and I am coming to that point in a minute. It is the theory of political impartiality, judicial-mindedness, and so on. But I submit that the qualifi-
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cations necessary for a judge of the High Court are utterly irrelevant to the work of this Committee.
What are the qualities desirable in a judge of the High Court? They are, surely, the ability for fair hearing and the weighing of evidence; the understanding and the interpretation of the law, and the application of the law to particular cases. What in the world has this got to do with the selection of Governors for the British Broadcasting Corporation? There is no evidence. There is no legal point. There is no balancing of the evidence. There is no law.
What do we need in people who are to do this? We certainly need fair-mindedness. But we also need a wide knowledge of men and women and affairs. And let it not be forgotten that many distinguished occupants of the legal bench have been party politicians in their time, and might have strong political views. I only say this incidentally and by way of aside, but I am always careful about the law of libel—and for good reasons. These two judicial appointments, I submit, are irrelevant to the work of the trustees.
We submit that this is an interesting but a bad proposal, that it strikes at the vitals of Parliamentary responsibility, for the Board of Governors, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, is the Corporation; and the Government are telling Parliament that we are to adopt an expedient whereby the House of Commons can have no rights whatever in relation to the appointments of the Governors of the B.B.C. I beg of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were on the warpath against me and my colleagues about Questions to Ministers on socialised industries, and who were urging all sorts of quaint ideas of how to control those great business undertakings, to pass the word privately through the usual channels to the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister and the Assistant Postmaster-General and to say, "Drop it; it is not a good idea and it is not fair to the House of Commons."
I come to television. Television is a wonderful development, with plays, news, entertainment, education; it is a great thing. But I submit to the House that we must remember about television that we can have too much of it. When you

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are looking at television and listening to it, you cannot easily work as well. I believe women can knit, and some men can—and I hasten to add that I cannot. But you cannot read during television, and let us not forget—because in part this applies to sound broadcasting as well—that there are so many mechanical means to an easy and sometimes superficial knowledge that if we are not careful the habit of reading will lessen—and reading is the greatest form of education, and especially self-education.
Do not let us have too many hours of television. Consider, too, the children. If children are to be stuck listening to television for too many hours they will miss healthy play and recreation and exercise, and they will miss the development of the reading of books which is very important even in child life. I will read to the House what was said in a letter from an engine driver. An engine driver is a good type of artisan, although this man had little formal education, as I did, and possibly less than I did. The letter has a humorous finish, but a tragic one, too. He says:
"I am very interested in television as a viewer. It must have altered the habits of thousands of working people, as it has mine. It has opened a vista of sights, scenes and educational items to which we could never have aspired. I no longer listen to radio, I rarely go out in the evenings, I have visited the cinema once in 18 months. In fact, I'm quite happy with my television and auto-radiogram. But I wish I could help you more."
Mr. John Rodgers: Help you with what?
Mr. Morrison: How do I know? I am not the engine driver. He adds:
"P.S.—I have also resigned my seat on the Town Council, and politics."
I do not know what the town council was, and he may have had good reasons for doing so, but this letter illustrates that people can get absorbed in this new thing to an extent which takes them out of the ordinary world.
If we can have too much of good television, as we think it is in this country, how serious it will be for our culture and our democracy if we get too much bad television. I do not understand this White Paper. It says in a number of respects that we have the best broadcasting, and by implication television,
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system in the world. It says the Government would be most unwilling to see any change in the policy of the B.B.C. themselves. They do not want the B.B.C. to be corrupted by sponsoring or commercial television. They want the B.B.C. still to be going strong—and then they propose to bring in sponsoring on the part of competitive commercial undertakings.
With great respect, I earnestly think that is wrong. In fact, sponsored commercial television is not mentioned at all in the White Paper, which is curious, but that is obviously what is meant, according to the Home Secretary and, indeed, the Lord Chancellor in another place. The case for it is almost entirely based on an abstract theory of competition versus monopoly. I have often had to complain about Socialists that now and again some of them get a bit too theoretical and dogmatic and abstract, but it is now obvious that this trouble is more prevalent in the Conservative Party than it is in the Labour Party.
There is a case for competition in many fields of industry. For example, there is a good case for competition in electric lamps, departmental stores, chemical manufacture. [An HON. MEMBER: "And the Co-ops."] The Co-ops are in vigorous competition which, indeed, is the subject of complaint by private enterprise. That was the foundation of the whole Beaverbrook campaign against the Co-ops—that they were effective competitors with private enterprise.
Some Conservatives have become very emotional, almost theological, about bringing competition into what are alleged to be public monopolies. They are very much for competition with public concerns, while, at the same time, the same Conservatives, or other Conservatives, have been busy creating at any rate partial private monopolies, cartels, rings and extensive amalgamations in private industry.
If we are to have commercial sponsoring in television, why should we not have it in sound? All the friends of the advertising agencies say, "Yes, let us have it in sound as well." The Lord Chancellor said he favoured it in sound as well. But sponsoring has been condemned by many distinguished non-Labour Peers and other

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non-Labour people in that valuable correspondence which took place in "The Times" and in the valuable two days' debate which took place in another place. I may not quote what happened in another place, except what Ministers said, and that I will do.
As a whole, I think the opponents of commercial sponsoring have been men of high reputation and distinguished public service, and I believe that they have easily had the best of the argument which has taken place. Let us examine some of the things the Lord Chancellor said about monopoly, because we are hearing so much which is misleading about this word monopoly. I was going to make two quotations from what he said, but perhaps one will be sufficient. He referred to his thoughts about the matter and said:
"… my mind went back to the period of the fifth decade of the seventeenth century, when an order was promulgated that no book, no paper, no pamphlet, should be printed without the approval of the authorities—it might have been the Lords in Council or who you will: if they had been alive then, it would have been, perhaps, in the hands of Sir William Haley and his colleagues."
I will, after all, take the other quotation when, referring to monopolies, he said:
"If the noble Earl, Lord Halifax, were here, I should dare to ask him whether if he had the sole right of speaking in this House, that would not be a monopoly."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 26th May, 1952; Vol. 196, c. 1446–8.]
What is the theory behind all this? The theory is that the B.B.C. has the monopoly of what is said on the air or what is given on television. But the only body which must not have an opinion to send over the air or to give on television is the British Broadcasting Corporation itself. If I remember rightly, they are forbidden by the terms of the Charter from having opinions. They are the only editors not permitted to have opinions.
Mr. Baxter: I find myself very much in sympathy with a great deal of what he is saying, but the B.B.C., by the selection of speakers, has that way of expressing its own views.
Mr. Morrison: It does not. It is always possible for us to have individual views as to the Tightness or the wrongness of the selection of some speakers. I have some of those views myself. I think that in all parts of the House hon. Members have
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such views. But surely nobody will argue that the B.B.C. does not try to put both sides of the case, generally speaking. Therefore, all sorts of views are heard upon the B.B.C., and I do not think that that is a fair charge.
But what the Lord Chancellor implies is that the B.B.C. has a monopoly of what is said—that they are the people who say it; that they are the people who pick the picture out. That is the implication. After all, the Lord Chancellor did make the comparison with the Lords in Council of centuries ago who said that nobody could publish anything without their permission. Surely, that is not analogous to the way in which the British Broadcasting Corporation is conducted at the present time.
Mr. I. J. Pitman: Surely, the Lords in Council were then in the position of giving a licence—in comparison with the licence of the Postmaster-General. The Governors of the B.B.C., as the right hon. Gentleman said, are-masters of their ship. Therefore, they are in the position to impose their views in any way they like.
Mr. Morrison: But suppose the Governors were. Suppose they could say that for the next six months no Conservative should be heard—or no Socialist should be heard. Does anybody think they are likely to do it?
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Morrison: If I am to be subjected to persistent interruptions I am going to take a long time, and I do not want to stand in the way of other hon. Gentlemen who, naturally, wish to speak. But there is no reality in what is implied in the charge that the B.B.C. suppresses reasonably free speech. There is no reality in that charge whatever, and that is the implied charge. It is nothing else, and I think it is a perfectly unreasonable thing.
The noble Lord the Lord Chancellor said that there was a power of authority. Well, when we go on the air as politicians and have controversial broadcasts, as we do from time to time, no authority interferes with us. Nobody interferes with the script. We are absolutely free to say what we like—and so we do. Therefore, I say that the Lord Chancellor hopelessly misused the word

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"monopoly." [HON. MEMBERS: "He did not."] The B.B.C. indeed has no voice of its own. It is forbidden to have a voice. On the contrary, it has a duty, which, I think, it broadly discharges, to broadcast by sound and T.V. many viewpoints stated by outsiders.
There is a great variety of views. Indeed, there is a great variety of variety even in variety. It includes the jokes in variety that have a little habit, perhaps, of being modified according to who is the Government of the day—but we all try to take them in good part, as we ought; and I really think with respect to the Lord Chancellor—the Lord High Chancellor of England, a great lawyer, a man for whom I have the warmest personal respect—I really do think it was not worthy of the high office he holds that this misrepresentation about the B.B.C. should have taken place. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I must say his Lordship shocked me.
Mr. John Profumo Mr. John Profumo (Stratford) rose——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew): Order. There is a rule against the quotation of speeches made in debates in another place——
Mr. Morrison: Except those of Ministers of the Crown.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: —unless they are official statements of policy by Ministers. I wonder if this is an official statement of policy that is being referred to?
Mr. Morrison: This is surprising, if I may say so, Sir, with great respect. This was an official speech made in winding up a debate in another place by one who is a member of the Cabinet. I do assure you that that is so, Sir. If you read the Report of the debate, you will find that it is so—otherwise I should not have dared to have referred to the proceedings in their Lordships' House. But I know that I am within my rights.
Mr. Frank Bowles: On a point of order. As to the question of quoting from speeches in another place, I know quite well what is in Erskine May, but it is surely rather old-fashioned. I am hoping that this House soon will see its way to modify this rule.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not my business to modify the practice of this House.
Mr. Profumo: I was only going to ask the right hon. Gentleman this. I am quite certain he had no intention of trying to misrepresent what the Lord Chancellor said in another place, but if he reads very carefully the OFFICIAL REPORT of that debate—and I have a copy here, and I listened to the Lord Chancellor—the right hon. Gentleman will see that what the Lord Chancellor said was that the B.B.C. was a monopoly. He did not seek in any way to say that the B.B.C. had ever suppressed individual views. Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree with this, that nobody can speak either on the television or on the radio—on the air in England—except by permission of the B.B.C? And is not that monopoly?
Mr. Morrison: Then, Sir, it is now admitted by the hon. Gentleman that the Lord Chancellor did not charge the B.B.C. with any unfairness.
Mr. Profumo: Certainly.
Mr. Morrison: That is fine. I am very happy that that should be so. But a case is being got up to show that the B.B.C. is acting improperly because it has a monopolistic position. What is being put to us? That in the future we are to have sponsored television and that we shall have the glorious privilege—not we the politicians, because we are to be barred from sponsored television, but in so far as we can get in to speak on the sponsored television—first of all being chosen for the B.B.C. by our party, and second, it may be, of being chosen by somebody selling pills or beer or cigarettes or cigars. Really, that is not good enough as a means to solve this particular problem.
This sponsored system has been tried in certain other countries, notably the United States of America. It is said that America is different. Well, here is something from "Time" of 3rd March, 1952. I say that it is possible for these things to happen in this country. It says:
"Many parents retreat from the living room when the children's TV shows come on. A group of dedicated San Francisco mothers did just the reverse. They cooked their families' suppers early. Then they sat down for four uninterrupted hours of TV moppet shows. In Washington last week the Federal Communications Commission published the results. The outraged mothers saw 13 murders and assorted killings; four sluggings; six kidnappings; five hold-ups; three explosions; three instances of blackmail and extortion: three thefts; two armed robberies; two cases

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of arson; one lynching; one torture scene; and one miscarriage. One mother clocked 104 gun shootings during a half hour serial, and another found sudden death shudderingly described 14 times in 20 minutes."
Those are facts published——
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The "News of the World."
Mr. Morrison: I am not responsible for the "News of the World," which, I gather, is usually a Conservative paper. This is an official report published by the Federal Communications Commission. I think the House ought to be in earnest about this, because this may happen here. It says:
"The mothers themselves concluded that the gun, the gat, the rod, the sixshooter is the prime motivator of most children's television programmes. Life is cheaper than a cigarette butt in the gutter. Not one episode, not one character, not one emotion do we"—
that is to say, the mothers—
"see evoked that the children might emulate to their gain."
This sort of thing, in a greater or lesser degree, is inevitable if we commercialise television and broadcasting and if we put behind it the same kind of drive for listeners as the popular Press inevitably gets behind it for the purposes of circulation. If we get behind it the drive of the advertising agencies—and the advertising agencies are being very active in this particular campaign—we must presume that the American agencies will be able to come into the business as well, and so we may get that very Americanism about which the Home Secretary seemed to be apprehensive.
If this happens we shall not be able to maintain reasonably good and high standards of television or sound broadcasting, because the very nature of the thing is that it must be a chase for listeners and viewers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Like the films."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite say: "Like the films." Are they all ideal for children to see? Have we not to mark a lot of them "A," for adults only? That is really a false argument. If we bring in this commercial rivalry and sponsoring, which in itself is dependent upon the number of people it can attract to listen to or look at it, there must be a competitive drive in a downward direction of standards. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I say "yes." It must inevitably be so.
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The noble Lord has referred to the "News of the World." I do not wish to drag in that newspaper. I have no wish to run a campaign against the "News of the World"; but let the noble Lord and the advertising agencies ask why the "News of the World" has the biggest circulation. We all know the answer. Why has the "Sunday Dispatch" got a substantial circulation? Look at page 2 and you will find the answer. I say this is a dangerous and a wrong thing.
Moreover, it will lead to very serious financial consequences both for the sponsors and the British Broadcasting Corporation. There is one American commentator who, for 13 minutes, once a week on Sunday nights, was getting 600,000 dollars a year in 1948. Hon. Gentlemen on the other side may say: "Good luck to him; why not?" I am not sure that these vast incomes for that limited amount of work is a good thing. I do not think it is socially good, but that is another point. However, if we, too, start this competition between the B.B.C. and commercial radio we shall undoubtedly involve them both in difficulties.
I therefore earnestly ask Her Majesty's Government to give reconsideration to this matter. I believe the view that we take, in company with many distinguished members of the Conservative Party and others—really distinguished people with a lifelong service behind them—is the right one. I think we are speaking not only for Her Majesty's Opposition but for Britain. I believe, with absolute sincerity—disagree with me if hon. Members will—that this proposed development is totally against the British temperament, the British way of life and the best or even reasonably good British traditions.
I earnestly beg of the Government to realise that there is grave public disquiet about this. They have not got public opinion with them on this point, and I ask them not to commit the House even as far as they do in favour of sponsored television. I admit they are not immediately committing the House, but they are committing us to the principle of the thing and I ask them and every hon. Member opposite to think earnestly about this.
I hope the Government will be able to tell us that they are not going on with

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either of these objectionable features, in which case we could reach the happy conclusion of not having to divide on the new Charter, which I think would be a good thing. I appeal to the Government to reconsider their proposal between now and 10 o'clock so that they may be in a position to give us some good news about the new Charter.
5.46 p.m.
Captain Charles Waterhouse: The speech to which we have just listened was one of great force but not, I think, of great persuasion. The right hon. Gentleman made a series of statements towards the end of his speech and he did not really base them on any argument or fact. I shall deal with some of them in the course of my later remarks.
The main rhetorical point which he made towards the end of his speech was that competition will inevitably mean a drive downwards, and when he was challenged across the Floor of the House to explain why that must be so, his answer was that it was inevitable. That is not the sort of argument which is going to convince people either in this House or in the country. He said that there is no public demand for this.
I admit there may not seem to be a public demand, but if there were such a demand how would it be shown. The Press are silent. The B.B.C. do not refer to it very much. This is the first time it has been debated in this House. It was debated in another place when, on one day, a great many weighty speeches were made in one direction and, on the second day, even more speeches were made in exactly the other direction by men who, though perhaps younger, were no less thoughtful and capable of expressing a view.
I should like to devote my remarks to two main points. The first is with regard to the financial position, which has been only quite lightly touched upon. I congratulate the Government on having decided to reduce the 100 per cent. grant. After all, the 100 per cent. grant has been operative for only two years out of the 26 years since the Corporation was first formed. It is quite wrong for the B.B.C, as they often do, to refer to "raiding our licence revenue."
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The Crawford Committee in 1925 laid down clearly that the B.B.C. should, from the licence revenue, have an income thoroughly adequate to the full and efficient maintenance and development of the service, and more lately the Postmaster-General, in another place, has emphasised that by saying:
"… wireless licences are paid for in order to use a receiving set and not for the privilege of listening to the B.B.C."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 27th May, 1952; Vol. 176, c. 1340.]
The B.B.C. are by far the richest broadcasting organisation in the world. Let nothing I am going to say be taken in any way as a criticism of their general set-up. I believe I am voicing the opinion of everyone who thinks as I do when I say that they have built up an institution of which we may all be proud and which we all intend to preserve.
But this is an expensive institution. They are this year receiving £11½ million from the national Exchequer for the Home Service, £4¾ million for the Overseas Service, a total of £16¼ million in all. They are employing a staff of 12,500 men and women and they have built up a reserve—the House ought to remember this—in liquid assets of no less than £4,477,000.
It is no wonder they are an efficient organisation so far as giving a service goes. We are proud that they are able to do it. We have not the smallest intention of doing anything which will weaken that power, but those of us who realise the financial position of the country must pause to think whether or not we can afford this luxury in increasing quantities every year, and by quantities I mean quantities measured by expenditure.
It may well be, I am told, that in a comparatively short time sound broadcasting may almost disappear—that everybody who has now an ordinary receiving set will have television. If that is so, then the licence revenue will double. It will go up from something like £12 million or £13 million to £24 million or £26 million, and under this proposal the B.B.C. revenue will go up, too. I suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend that he should consider moving away from this system of percentage grant to give a lump grant to the Home Service in the same way as he gives a lump grant

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to the Overseas Service. Let him fix it at what he likes. I believe that would be best in the national interest.
I now turn to the vexed question of monopoly. That is a point of hot politics, as has been perfectly clear from the speech of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). We naturally do not like monopolies. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite equally naturally do like monopolies provided they are State monopolies.
I think we have all read the arguments that have been put forward in another place and which have appeared recently in the Press. If the House will allow me, I should like to deal quite briefly with several of those arguments. The first is that we who take this view want to attack the B.B.C. That I absolutely deny. The B.B.C. will remain quite untouched and will be encouraged, I hope, by competition to give an even better service to this country and to the world than it does now.
The second point is the curious terror that the Press have of a new form of advertising. The Press are powerful enough. The Press are rich enough not to fear a competitor in this particular field which is their main source of revenue. After all, if people are going to advertise they are going to advertise because it pays to do so, and if by finding a new medium of advertising they are going to increase their sales, is that something of which we as a nation ought to be afraid, and something of which the Press need be afraid?
There is no pool of advertising and no exact amount of money laid aside by industry for that purpose in this country. Industry does not say, "This is what we want to spend on advertising and no more." Industry advertises according to the sales of that industry, and as the sales grow, so the amount it spends on advertising will grow, provided that the advertising is a profitable source of investment.
Then there is the pendantic argument, which the right hon. Gentleman developed at such great length, that we are going to have very shocking stuff from this new sponsored industry. Did he ever listen to Radio Normandy and Radio Luxembourg and has he been very much shocked by anything which came from either of those stations? Why should he
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assume that we in this country are going to like the worst things that are done in the United States?
If the programmes are not liked in this country, they will not be any good from the point of view of those who want to advertise. The advertisers will take jolly good care that they do not shock people and terrify mothers with those horrors which the right hon. Gentleman enumerated to us. They will put over a programme which appeals to the English character, and I do not believe that our English character is half as bad as the right hon. Gentleman would have us believe it to be.
There was the extraordinary point made of Gresham's law—the law of currency—that bad currency drives out good currency, and merely because it is a law of currency it is the reverse of the law of either the commodity or the service. Does anyone really pretend that a bad 'bus service is going to drive out a good 'bus service or a bad motor car is going to stop the sale of a good motor car? I agree that sometimes bad Members of Parliament drive out good Members. But, by and large, we know perfectly well that the law which will govern the listening to any form of broadcast is the law that the people will judge of the best and will switch on to the best. If advertisers find certain programmes are being listened to by a sufficient number of people, they will pay for the advertising through that particular medium.
Then there is the argument—perhaps the strongest of all—that under this system there is a real danger that people will get what they want and not what is good for them. I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman in that. He and his hon. Friends know so well what everyone in the country ought to have. They do so enjoy telling us where we ought to go, how we ought to get there and what we should do when we get there.
Mr. Barnett Janner (Leicester, Northwest)Mr. Barnett Janner (Leicester, Northwest) rose——
Captain Waterhouse: I am sorry that I cannot give way. I recommend that we should in this matter, as in so many others, trust the people of this country to judge for themselves. Let them have the alternatives and let them decide. I come back to the point which was made so clearly by my right hon. and learned

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Friend, that if we have these other systems we are giving alternative avenues of employment—that a man is not held body and soul to one particular employment, that if he does not hold a certain view he may not be employed and if he does not put that view over in a certain way he may not be re-employed.
Mr. Janner Mr. Janner rose——
Captain Waterhouse: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I would rather not give way because there are many hon. Members on both sides of the House who want to speak and I want to make my points.
Mr. Janner: May I put just one question? Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggesting that an advertiser is going to employ anyone to put a different point of view from that which he himself holds in regard to his advertising?
Captain Waterhouse: That is really an extremely foolish question. The advertiser will go to the agency and say, "I want a programme put on which will attract listeners." Does the hon. Gentleman think that any advertiser is going to say, "Is he a Conservative, a Socialist or a Communist?" Of course he is not; that is absolutely absurd.
I want for a few moments to deal with the actual proposals which have been put before us. There has so far been a practical reason for the B.B.C.'s monopoly. There has been the real danger of a confusion of wavelengths. Not very many wave-lengths have been available, and throughout the last 20 years various Commissions have considered this and have wisely decided that, as long as insufficient wave-bands were available, it was proper that they should be kept regulated and that the simplest way of regulating them was to do so under one nation-owned system.
But today a completely new era is opening up. Very high frequencies, of which I do not pretend to understand the technicalities, open up an almost infinite system of comparatively short-range wave bands. I entirely endorse the question put by the right hon. Gentleman: If the Government decided that this could be done for T.V., why could they not also have done it for sound? I must confess that I am disappointed that they
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have not done that, but I am prepared to accept it as their view, for they have gone into it with very great care, I know.
The Postmaster-General, making an official statement in another place, said that they were offering an alternative while at the same time securing to the B.B.C. its position as a national organisation. That is what I understood was the purpose of the White Paper, but I was more than a little shaken by my right hon. and learned Friend in his opening speech, for he seemed to me to envisage that the development would be in the very remote future. If he really means that—I hope he does not—then I think he was not being completely sincere to the House in the terms of the White Paper.
Nobody realises the national emergency more than I do. Nobody realises more than I do that at a time of re-armament, and at a time when we have all this new radio equipment, we must virtually devote all our energies to the one task of beating a potential enemy. But when that time has passed—that may be very soon—then surely it is only right and proper that the spirit of this White Paper should be accepted.
This year the B.B.C. have a right to capital expenditure of no less than £2,100,000. Is it too much to hope that in the next financial year £250,000 can be allocated if any commercial houses are prepared to spend it on television broadcasting stations? I should call that standing behind the spirit of the White Paper. If the whole thing is to be left for a decade, what will it be worth and what does it mean? It would be camouflage.
I am anxious to support Her Majesty's Government in this matter. I know that they have considered it very carefully indeed, and that they have taken advice over a wide field of expert opinion. I believe the Government intend to stand by what they have said, and in that belief I shall gladly support them this evening. But I urge them not to allow any argument by right hon. or hon. Gentlemen opposite to interfere with what I believe to be their intentions.
Mr. H. Morrison: Their monopoly of political power.
Captain Waterhouse: Curiously enough, we have Parliamentary government in this country, and when a Government is elected to this House it has

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a right to decide what is to be done. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite have no right to cast political power in our faces considering what they have done to this country over the past six years. I appeal to my right hon. Friends to stand clearly and firmly behind the intentions of their White Paper and then they will be backed in this House and the country by a loyal and enthusiastic party.
6.5 p.m.
Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I am glad to follow the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leicester, South-East (Captain Waterhouse) because he has raised one or two of the fundamental issues of principle in connection with this question. He talked about giving the people what they want and tried to suggest that in some way it was a mistake to do anything but that. That point of view was put forward in another place; there is no great doubt that it is a point of view which rests on misconceptions. After all, when we are making our decisions in this House we are actually part and parcel of the people of the country making their decisions.
It is very often difficult for hon. Members opposite to rid themselves of the old idea of government, that the people doing the government are a group of people at the top who apply the government to those down below, who are quite separate from them. That is not how it works. "Trust the people" was the phrase used in another place; but the process of trusting the people is the process which we put into effect when we are elected to this House; the people then trust the Members of this House to use their best wisdom in deciding the policies which the country shall follow. We should be abdicating our responsibilities if we simply said, "We think this policy would be the best one but perhaps it is not the best thing to do because a mass vote or plebiscite would not support it."
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman might look at it as a Parliamentary question and not as one in which he wants to get an automatic reaction from the people. One of the important things about our method of government is that, to a certain extent, the people expect their representatives to be a little more politically experienced and a little wiser in political matters and a little more
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specially concerned with policy than they are, and a decision such as this should be made on the basis of our best wisdom rather than on that of a mass vote or plebiscite.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman also talked about the general question of monopolies. This is very largely an argument about a word rather than about a policy. The question whether or not the B.B.C. is a monopoly is not an important one with regard to the policy upon which we must decide. That is made abundantly clear when we read the speech of the Lord Chancellor in another place. He got himself as confused as he possibly could. He ended his speech with the blunt and vigorous statement that this monopoly, like all monopolies, should be brought to an end. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
Hon. Members say "Hear, hear," but earlier in that speech the Lord Chancellor had pointed out that some monopolies were justified, and he had specifically instanced two cases which are extremely unlike each other, the Post Office and the Army. The Lord Chancellor did not even instance some of the more ordinary types of monopoly about which we argue. What did he mean? Did he mean that all monopolies should be ended, or that some monopolies are justified? No one knows, and I do not believe that he knew, because his speech contained a lot of flamboyance and strong argument not always based on the realities of the situation.
In his earlier reference to monopolies which were justified the Lord Chancellor argued that they could only be justified by cogent necessity. That is the very point that we are discussing. What are the cogent arguments in favour of one line of development for broadcasting or another? It is merely introducing a midway point that does not help to say that the B.B.C. is a monopoly, that therefore we will apply to it the arguments which are applied to monopolies and will do such and such a thing. We should say, "Here is the B.B.C. We know what it is. We know what are the requirements of policy and therefore we will go straight to our decision on policy." To introduce this half-way stage is to get us into a fog of argument about the meaning of a word.
I shall not try to forecast when the Government will attempt to put into effect

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a policy of sponsoring. I want to draw attention to an aspect of the question which is generally overlooked and which certainly the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leicester, South-East gave the impression that he overlooked. The phrase that is used is "When resources are available." We do not talk about money expenditure as being the determinant. What really matters as a determinant is the resources that are available.
The important resources to which we ought to have regard are not those of materials and metals and so on which some noble Lords in another place have been assuming will become available comparatively soon. The important resources which will not become available are those of skilled and trained manpower. The House ought to bear in mind that in all our undertakings in this country we assume that we can go ahead with far more skilled, scientific manpower and technicians than we are likely to get.
The last report of the Advisory Committee on Scientific Policy makes perfectly clear what has really been obvious for the last four or five years. We should be beginning to pull back many of our scientifically trained people from "frontline" jobs to the basic jobs of training more scientists in order to make sure that we have scientifically trained people and technicians in the future. We cannot hope to go on squandering on consumption projects the capital of trained and educated manpower that we should be putting into capital development in this matter. That aspect of the future of television and broadcasting has not received enough attention because the shortage of scientific manpower has not had sufficient attention in other fields either.
I thought, too, that the reference made by the Lord Chancellor to Milton's famous argument in favour of freedom of speech was completely misguided. Milton was arguing for the freedom to express opinions. He himself had been expressing heterodox opinions on the subject of divorce. The burden of his argument was that the minority or heterodox opinion should not be suppressed by any licensing council. He was not arguing the question involved in sponsoring—the sale of goods, the question of advertising, of using the power of money to expand sales
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by advertising through this particular medium.
When people talk about the lowering of standards, what really matters is not primarily the standard of the programmes but the standard of our national life which will undoubtedly become debased if we increase the number of avenues by which money power can affect it. What shocks so many of us on this side of the House is the notion of allowing the power of money to be introduced into this phase of our national life at the time when we are successfully putting on to a basis of public interest a number of more material types of undertaking.
Now may I turn from the major questions of principle and policy to two rather more specialised matters? One is the method of appointing Governors. I think the White Paper is wrong in suggesting such an appointing Committee. The reason given was to take the Governors of the B.B.C. further away from possible political influence.
We should bear in mind that the Government of this country is not solely a party organisation. There are many things which the Government do as the trustee of the affairs of the nation and which they do quite impartially. I need not specify them because hon. Members can think of them for themselves. It seems to me that it would be weakening that tradition if we were to take away from the Government the power of appointing the Governors of the B.B.C., indeed it would be a case of the Government abdicating from a task which they ought to carry out.
Here may I draw attention to another point in the remarks of the Lord Chancellor. He did not say it in so many words, but he hinted clearly that the reason for suggesting this Committee was that the appointment of Lord Waverley as Chairman of a Royal Commission had not been approved and that Lord Waverley had later resigned and been superseded. That does not seem to me to be a proper parallel. A much more correct parallel would be found in the more permanent parts of our constitution—the Civil Service, the Defence Services and so on.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department made a clear and lucid speech in opening this debate which shed

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much light on the vigorous but completely unclear and unlucid speech of the Lord Chancellor—I might even say the irresponsible speech of the Lord Chancellor. The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not mention that point at all, very wisely, and did not support a number of things which the Lord Chancellor said.
I would suggest, as so many others have suggested, that the judges ought not to be there if the Committee were to be approved. Their function is judicial, and it could only do our judiciary harm to have it concerned with a purely executive function. In this connection, may I draw attention to one rather narrow point? Hon. Gentlemen sitting for English constitutencies will easily assume that the Lord President of the Court of Sesssion and the Lord Chief Justice are comparable people.
There is a big difference, which is not always recognised, between the Scottish judiciary and the English, and particularly between the heads of the judiciary. I remember my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Helens (Sir H. Shawcross) saying in this House during the previous Parliament that the English legal system bad managed to get rid of patronage in the matter of appointments to the Bench. The Scottish legal system, unfortunately, in that respect is still unreformed. Appointments to the Bench are made to a very large extent—it is common ground, it is public knowledge and it is accepted and discussed—by way of Membership of this House.
Sir William Darling: No.
Mr. MacPherson: It is true that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Wheatley) made two appointments, neither of which was a party appointment, but the Lord President at the present moment is an ex-Conservative Lord Advocate and the second senior judge in Scotland, the Lord Justice Clerk, is an ex-Labour Lord Advocate. That is the normal situation. It is not abnormal. The Lord President, in nine cases out of ten, will have been a practising politician. That introduces an element which makes a proposal of this kind even less happy than it might otherwise have been.
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I will finish by referring to one point which I should like to have dealt with at some length, as it is a matter of great complexity. That is the matter of the national Councils. I welcome what the White Paper has to say with regard to the principle of devolution, but that principle in application will bring into prominence a large number of really difficult problems. The probem of staffing is highly complex and will not be easy of solution.
There is the problem of the appointment of the Scottish Governor, for instance. I see no reason at all why he should not be appointed on the nomination of the Secretary of State of the day. Just as the Government in the United Kingdom carry out a number of functions which are in their nature impartial, so we are accustomed to the Secretary of State for Scotland carrying out functions impartially. He is sitting on the Government Front Bench just now, and I am glad to see him. I am sure that he will confirm what I say. I see no reason why the appointment should not be made at his instance.
The powers of the proposed national Councils will be a matter of difficulty. I am aware that the right hon. and learned Gentleman stressed that the powers must include executive powers. That raises difficulties when the main organisation is the source of the main executive decision; but these things can be worked out. In all questions of devolution the practical application is always a great deal more complex than the actual decision of principle. There will have to be a good deal of worrying and head scratching before some of these problems are worked out in a proper way.
The final point I want to make about this topic—and my final point altogether—is on the method of appointment to these national Councils. I do not like the proposed method in the very slightest. If the members of the national Councils are to have executive powers, for goodness' sake let us be sure that they will be people who can carry out executive powers. Let us have a small body, selected as individuals, or as representatives of broad trends of thought, as the Governors of the B.B.C. are selected. Again, let the Secretary of State be responsible for their selection.
This business of picking out so many to represent the local authorities, others

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to represent specific cultural interests, and that kind of thing, will mean that every one of them will come along with a chain tied to his leg. He may not be in so many words a delegate from some organisation but he is bound to feel that he is a delegate, and will have his opinions referred back, even if not through his talking about them, because the people whom he is supposed to represent will watch everything he does. He will feel responsible to them.
I do not think we can get a proper executive organisation on that basis. We must select the members as individuals, a small group of, say, five or thereabouts, representing particular trends of thought, certainly. Let us try to make quite sure that we do not select people who will be looking over their shoulders all the time whenever they make a decision.
I have spoken a bit longer than I normally do—a minute or two longer—but I am glad to have been able to get my say in early. I hope that the House will avoid the great danger of the debate becoming a kind of pale repetition of the two-day debate in another place. I hope that we shall have a vigorous expression of opinion which, by the end of the day, will cause the right hon. and learned Gentleman to think again about one or two of the things that he is proposing.
6.27 p.m.
Sir Ian Fraser: The Home Secretary spoke of certain safeguards, some minor and some major, against the possible misuse by Governments of the enormous powers which broadcasting affords us. I want to comment on just two of them, and first on the so called veto.
When Ministers tell the B.B.C., under the present Charter and under all the Charters that we have had, that they do not want a particular matter broadcast, the B.B.C. is bound to obey. That is objectionable. I can speak from some little experience on the Board of Governors before the war. There have been occasions when orders like that have been given and when, if it had been possible for the Governors to say, "We will say on the air that you have forbidden this particular piece of news or this particular statement to be made," the Ministers concerned would not have pressed the matter. It is a minor, but I think
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important, safeguard which is now in the White Paper and will be put into the new Charter, that where Ministers give orders that particular matters are not to be broadcast, the Governors have the right to say that they have been so ordered.
As to the appointment of Governors by the Committee of Trustees, I agree with what has been said from both sides of the House that there is no serious major or continuing complaint that can be levelled against any Government since the B.B.C. was set up that they have shown undue partiality, or partiality at all, in the appointment of Governors. I think Governors have generally been appointed to the best of the capacity of the Postmaster-General and the Prime Minister, from among persons with a wide experience of public affairs, and not particularly persons associated with or speaking for—certainly not representing—any particular organisation. I do not think that advantage has been taken by Governors or by Boards of Governors to play politics or to aid and abet the playing of politics within the B.B.C. I would say, therefore, that there is no very strong reason for a change such as that envisaged in the appointment of this Committee of Trustees.
Nevertheless, there have been cases within my knowledge where it is possible that if appointments had not been made by the Prime Minister but by trustees some disagreeable incidents that were not in the public interest might have been avoided. I am going to tell the House of one of those incidents. Some six of eight months before the war two of the Governors of the B.B.C. were myself and a gentleman called Dr. Mallon, a well-known, life-long member of the Labour Party and a great friend of mine.
It was proposed by the Ministers who were preparing for defence that directly war came the B.B.C. Board of Governors should be abolished and a dictatorship, composed of the Director-General and his assistant, should be established under the orders of some Minister connected with the war organisation. Dr. Mallon and I objected to this. We thought it was wrong and that this country ought to try very hard, even in wartime, to maintain the symbols and machinery of democracy. We thought that Parliament and the country would be extremely critical of a B.B.C. run by a Minister or a Minister's nominee.

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I have Dr. Mallon's permission to say this. He hesitated to tell the Leader of the Opposition because he had been appointed by the Government, and I hesitated to tell the Leader of the Opposition for a similar reason. There is no good telling Governments anything, because Governments do not listen. We did tell them and at the highest level, too. but we were told, "You do not understand that war is war and you have got to be abolished." They were wrong. We did succeed in retaining the rudiments of a Board by our own struggles inside the Corporation. Instead of having a Director-General, we maintained a Board consisting of two persons instead of the proper number, but within a year or so matters changed and the Board was reestablished.
Had there been access to some appointing body and had we felt free to go to the Leader of the Opposition and tell him about it, the matter would have been raised behind Mr. Speaker's Chair or in this House, and I do not doubt that it would have been settled. There is some case for the setting up of this Committee of Trustees, and I would urge the Opposition to reconsider their attitude in the matter.
There is another aspect of the matter which is within the recollection of many. Owing to the constitution of the Board before the war, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was not heard in a serious speech on the wireless for possibly 10 years. Why was that? It was because the Governors were appointed by the Government, and just as my right hon. Friend was excluded from the Government of this country in those critical days and there was a sort of conspiracy to denigrate anything he said, so there was a feeling in the B.B.C. that my right hon. Friend might say something which nobody in the House of Commons wanted to hear.
The Government did not want it said because their policy was different, and the Labour Party did not want it said because their policy was more different. [Interruption.] I am trying to say this in the least controversial way possible. It is a fact that the nation was deprived of hearing my right hon. Friend for the reason that there was this inhibition amongst the Governors. So it wants thinking about whether the appointment
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of Governors by the method proposed might not be an advantage.
I want to say a word about sponsorship. This arrangement is a compromise. I do not consider that it is any the worse for that. A great many British institutions are compromises, and it is not necessarily true that things must need be logical to work well, or that those things which are logical are necessarily agreeable or even more sensible. I was a member of the Crawford Committee in 1925, along with two other right hon. Members from this House and some from another place. It recommended to Parliament that this service should be run by a publicly controlled monopoly, for many reasons. But the only reason which made that Committee's report unanimous and which rallied opinion round it at the time was that very few of us knew anything about the technicalities of broadcasting and therefore the technical men were able to put forward their view without being called to account or criticised.
These technical men said that this island was too small and too near Europe to have more than one system, and the rest of us agreed that that was-the reason we had better accept it. So that reason was added to all the other ethical and political reasons that there were, to support a monopoly in broadcasting, but it was the only universal reason which everyone accepted. That has gone. It is no longer true that broadcasting in these islands can come only through one system. There is technically plenty of room for numerous systems, so that the main argument that bound together all those who supported the monopoly has disappeared.
Contrary to views held for 25 years, I am supporting this White Paper and I want very briefly to give my reasons. I have already placed them on record in evidence given to the Beveridge Committee, and they are these. Television costs five or 10 times as much as sound. I do not agree with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leicester, South-East (Captain Waterhouse) when he said that before long there would be no sound broadcasting but only television. I hope he is wrong because sound is of great value to many people.
If television develops quickly and becomes a vital service serving 5 million

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or 10 million people, we shall need a lot more money to run the programmes. At the moment there is not enough money to run the programme from 6 to 8 o'clock in the evenings, one of the best listening times. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) hoped that there would not be too much television because there could be too much of a good thing. What he had in mind was that he wanted to prevent people from having more than he thought right of this new device and invention. He was not prepared to trust them to choose how much they would take of it. I cannot agree with him about that.
Here is the dilemma. We have less television than is technically possible or than the people deserve, and if there is to be enough television it has got to be paid for at the expense of the sound system. There is no other method of paying for it unless we introduce sponsoring. So television must either be inadequate or it must draw part of its money from the sound system.
That is not fair to all those who for many years must of necessity continue to rely on the sound system, including a relatively small number of people who are blind, a larger number who do not see very well, large numbers who live in remote districts which television cannot reach for a long time, and' a great many poor people who cannot afford television. Therefore, because television cannot be done properly without new money, it is for the B.B.C. to show where the new money is to come from; and there is no place for it to come from except sponsoring.
I will not go over all the ground that has already been covered or will be covered by other hon. Members beyond adding that I do not believe we need assume that sponsoring need necessarily bring us the worst items which the right hon. Gentleman could find when all his secretaries had diligently searched the world Press. The British manner and tradition will as in the advertisements in our newspapers, generally preserve the kind of taste which the people want, and which I do not think is such a bad taste.
I mentioned that between 6 and 8 o'clock at night there is no television because we have not got the money. But we
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have the television stations—very costly, the best in the world—covering a large part of our population already. Capital has been spent on them and on the lines and the studios, and yet they are wasted from 6 to 8 o'clock, at a time when resources are so scarce.
Here I disagree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary. Why must we wait until a remote future before we do anything at all about this? We could immediately start using that period from 6 to 8 o'clock, not by making the B.B.C. responsible for taking advertisements; that would not be quite fair, as they dislike it so much. It may come as a surprise when I say that the B.B.C. already take advertisements in a paper which earns over £1 million a year. They already choose between good and bad advertisements, they already exercise their taste to exclude advertisements that would shock the right hon. Gentleman.
If it is too much to ask that the B.B.C should do that, why not let some group of commercial people get together—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Is there something wrong with commercial people? Is not 80 per cent. of all our living earned by them, including the money to pay for the nationalised part? Why not let some commercial people forthwith set up an organisation which could begin to take advertisements and could fill up this period from 6 to 8 o'clock, without using a single new valve or piece of metal or machinery except as may be required in a studio in which to practise? It is something of a dog-in-the-manger attitude for the B.B.C. to say, "We will not do this ourselves, so nobody else is to use the idle time."
In the circumstances, I approve of the White Paper proposal to leave sound broadcasting as it is for the present. I have said that we need not be logical in Britain to be good, decent and sensible, and in my view it does not follow that because there is sponsoring in television we must necessarily sponsor at once, or, indeed, at any time, in sound. It may come if we find that we like it in years to come, but we have a tradition of 25 or 27 years of immaculate sound. Let it remain immaculate until we have seen whether we like the sponsored television, and then we can alter things if we like.
The Government must make a better statement at the end of the debate than

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they have made at the beginning about the priority to the B.B.C. It is arguable that we should not do this at all, but if we are going to do it, let us do it reasonably and in time to notice that we have done it. If all priorities and absolute priorities are to go to the B.B.C. for a long period of time, we shall not see this change which the Government say is a proper one to make. I, for one, will support the Government, but I hope they will give us some assurance that it will not be too long before they give us this greater freedom on the air.
6.45 p.m.
Mr. C. R. Hobson: I was very interested in the account that the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) gave of the reasons the Prime Minister did not speak on the wireless before the war. It was certainly a very interesting revelation. I want, however, to take up the hon. Member immediately on the point that television cannot cover the whole of the country except by advertising. I remind the hon. Member that even with all the difficulties that have arisen since the war, there is already an 80 per cent. coverage of television.
Mr. Profumo: Eighty per cent. of television?
Mr. Hobson: There is 80 per cent. coverage at the present time. As far as the extension of programmes is concerned, I remind the hon. Member that there is already held in reserve by the B.B.C. some £4 million and that the Government take 15 per cent. of their revenue from licensing, which the Government of the day are at any time in a position to reduce.
Sir I. Fraser: That is not the point I was on, but it is quite all right.
Mr. Hobson: I submit, therefore, that the necessary capital is available, not only for complete coverage by television, but also for the B.B.C. to lengthen their programmes.
In my opinion, if there were a free vote tonight the White Paper would not be accepted. I believe that the opinion of right hon. and hon. Members opposite is as equally divided as it was in the other place. The White Paper is an attempt to reconcile rival forces within the Con-
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servative Party. It is interesting to note that it was not until 1950 and the advent of the many new Conservative Members that there was any question of the desirability or otherwise of having sponsored broadcasts. Now we have something which is almost akin to political lobbying, and not without reason.
It is the definite opinion of hon. Members opposite that they are against any national ownership of public services. That is their general position, with the exception of defence, coastguards, lifeboats and matters of that sort. But they are concerned with the fact that they do not want any limiting of the scope for private enterprise, and they see that with the introduction of sponsored broadcasting there is an avenue of profitable investment for them.
We have had tributes to the work of the B.B.C., both in the other place and in the White Paper, and there are one or two specific questions that I want to address to the hon. Gentleman who is to reply to the debate. If we are agreed that we have the best system in the world, why do the party opposite want to alter it? [HON. MEMBERS: "We want to improve it."] Why do they want to introduce sponsoring, and why—the Home Secretary gave no answer to this—is there to be sponsoring of television programmes but not of aural programmes? Is it the desire of the party opposite to leave alone what is old-fashioned, because it would not be as profitable, and that the new is to be the means by which profit is to be made? It certainly looks like that.
Those who are in favour of sponsored broadcasts attempt to rationalise their consciences by saying that they are against monopoly. It is true that the B.B.C. is a monopoly, but it is something else: it is a public monopoly. In that way it is very akin to the Post Office. It is certainly not like the monopolies of the lamp manufacturers' association, the cable manufacturers' association. or yeast.
The amount of Ministerial responsibility that the Postmaster-General has vis-a-vis the British Broadcasting Corporation is surprising. During the four or five years I was at the Post Office, I had to answer no fewer than eight Adjournment Debates dealing with the

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B.B.C. They varied from questions of bad reception, television coverage, and the B.B.C. Report and Accounts. They not only dealt with trade union recognition, but, under the benevolent eye of your predecessor, Sir, the question of the Dick Barton programme was raised. Following Questions in this House, when there were allegations of graft in the B.B.C., as a result of action taken in this House the B.B.C. set up a Committee of Inquiry under the chairmanship of Mr. Valentine Holmes. I think that shows that under the existing system the B.B.C., although it is a monopoly, has a tremendous amount of public responsibility.
I ask the hon. Gentleman who is to reply to what extent is there to be competition? The number of channels is already limited and it will be a long time before there is a development of very high frequency that will make it possible to have sponsored television in any shape or form. Further, when we get sponsoring, should such a thing happen, to a large extent it will be the monopoly of the larger firms. It is so in the United States. The smaller firms would be unable to pay for the time; that is the general experience. Is there a real demaind for sponsored broadcasting in this country? It is my experience, in the trade union movement and in working men's clubs, that there is no real demand for sponsored broadcasting at all, but that it comes only from certain noisy elements on the benches opposite.
Let us ask ourselves how many people today listen to Radio Luxembourg? Very few. Radio Luxembourg is in such a condition that it has to take advertising space on the hoardings. People listened to Radio Luxembourg only until such time as there was a re-orientation of B.B.C. policy on what should be heard on Sunday. As soon as variety programmes came into being on a Sunday, people stopped listening to Radio Luxembourg.
Captain Christopher Soames: The hon. Member said that very few listened to Radio Luxembourg. Does he know the listening figures? Does he consider that six million is a very small figure?
Mr. Hobson: I do not accept that figure anyway; I think it is entirely unreliable.
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I know that in my own circle very few listen to Radio Luxembourg. It is a fact that when there is sponsored broadcasting educational and cultural programmes come on very late at night. That is certainly so in the United States. In this country that is more often than not the witching hour of "disc jockeys." From the B.B.C. people want education and culture, but I honestly think we shall not get that form of programme if we have sponsored programmes. I think "The Tablet" was quite right when it stated:
"It is not what will be worth broadcasting but what will bring the greatest box office returns."
Mr. Anthony Fell: There is no suggestion, surely, in the White Paper that people should not be able to listen to the B.B.C? They can still listen to B.B.C. programmes and get their culture if they want to.
Mr. Hobson: That is quite true, but I am dealing with the general type of programme if it were put out by sponsors.
There is also the question of trade union recognition. I think that the White Paper takes a step in the right direction on this point. It is certainly different from the White Paper of 1946. I cannot understand why the B.B.C. has not recognised trade unions affiliated to the Congress many years ago. All other firms do so. I have heard arguments advanced that there are so many trades and professions in the B.B.C that it is necessary to have a staff association and that it would be entirely impracticable to have to deal with a lot of unions.
That is a very poor argument. Imperial Chemical Industries, the railways, the Post Office and big firms like Metropolitan Vickers are always dealing with this problem. There is no difficulty there at all. The other objection raised was that there would be danger of a strike within the service. That is quite true, but there are not many strikes these days. In any case, it would appear far more dangerous. and certainly a greater annoyance to the public, to have a strike among workers in the power stations.
I was interested to hear from the Home Secretary that the Government of Northern Ireland do not desire a separate Council. It will be interesting to hear what the Ulster Members have to say about that. As one who lived in Belfast for many years, I suggest that the Ulster

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Government are very wise. There is the added complication that Ulster and Durham happen to share the same wavelength. It would be very difficult for hon. Members in Ulster if an approach were made to televise the Twelfth of July Procession. All things considered I think a wise decision has been made.
I share the disappointment and concern of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) with regard to the Committee which is to appoint the Governors. That is very dangerous. It is dangerous chiefly because it puts you, Mr. Speaker, and the Lord Chief Justice in the position that if a political appointment or an unsatisfactory appointment to the Board of Governors were made, whether you liked it or not you would become part and parcel of a very bitter political controversy. I think that if this goes forward it will reduce Parliamentary responsibility. The old arrangement was far better.
One cannot help feeling that the suggested change, to a certain extent, casts a reflection on previous Prime Ministers with regard to appointments. I notice that in another place the Lord Chancellor, when dealing with this question, said that there had been a very unfortunate incident. The only incident I can think of was the banning of "Party Manners."
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The incident referred to was the complaint by the party opposite about Lord Waverley's appointment as chairman of a Royal Commission.
Mr. Hobson: I am glad to hear that that was the incident; I thought it was a question of the televising of "Party Manners."
There is another matter which might reasonably have been included in the White Paper. Like most hon. Members, I have been very concerned that the B.B.C. often find it impossible to get broadcasting and television rights for national events. The Home Secretary referred to this matter and said that he hoped negotiations would come to a satisfactory conclusion. I am afraid that I do not share that view. I have seen these people at close quarters and I know there is a spirit there which, quite frankly, I consider rather mean. I believe it is the duty of the Government of the day
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to take power so that the Cup Final, the Derby, the Grand National and events of that sort can be broadcast. I think it is their duty.
Why should not the millions who cannot get to those spectacles not be able to see them on television? Why should not the old, the sick and the infirm and the Forces serving at home see them? I think they have a right to see them. I am convinced that, far from reducing the number of people who would attend, as is objected, there would be increased attendances as a result of people having seen those events on television. It is not good enough that a small body of people should, as it were, be holding millions up to ransom merely because of petty meanness. Therefore, I should like to have seen included in the White Paper a provision to that effect.
I do not like the idea of sponsored broadcasting. I do not think that the majority of Members of this House really like it. There are those who say that it will be different from what it is in America. That may be so to a degree, but the fact remains that none of us wants to have our programmes brought to us by the courtesy of any particular manufacturer. We would far rather carry on in our traditional way.
We have the finest broadcasting system in the world. It is held in high esteem, it is respected by us all, it is tolerant. There is no shade of opinion that is prevented from expressing itself freely on the wireless, and that could not be said if we had sponsored broadcasting. I hope that the Government will think twice before they incorporate in a new Charter and in a Licence the terms of the White Paper.
7.2 p.m.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: I propose to speak only for about five minutes, partly because there are so many others who wish to speak. I make my apologies now because at 7.30 p.m. I must go to speak at a Conservative meeting in East Willesden, which I do not think will be reported by the B.B.C. or be seen on television.
I never thought that in this House I should find my political and personal friend the Home Secretary saying so many things with which I disagreed, or that I should find the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) expressing so much of what I thought.

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That is an embarrassing position. I almost think that the Home Secretary may have had some part in that first effort in the direction of a sponsored programme in this country. It is a little joke which is worth repeating tonight.
It is said that Beecham's told a certain church that they would supply their hymn books provided that they could do some concealed advertising. One day at Christmas, the congregation sang:
"Hark the herald angels sing,
Beecham's pills are just the thing.
Peace on earth and mercy mild
Two for man and one for child."
I find the Home Secretary saying that that is the kind of thing we should have now. [Interruption.] To my astonishment, some of my hon. Friends disagree with me.
I have had more experience of sponsored television than they have had—sponsored television. I am fortunate enough to go to the United States every winter. I do not entirely agree that they are less civilised than we are.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I never for a moment said that. I said they were a less mature and sophisticated people.
Mr. Baxter: I accept that at once. I was putting it in the way I did to save time. To say they are less mature is, I think, true. That is part of their charm. Youth is the oldest tradition of America.
To sit over there through a three- or four-hour sponsored television programme is to come under a terrorisation of the mass suggestion of advertising. I mean this quite seriously. I hope that I shall not be accused of vulgarity for what I am about to say, but I think we must speak bluntly here. The American girl, for example, is supposed to be the finest of her kind in the world. She is supposed to be the quintessence of feminine charm. What do the advertisers say about her on the radio, on the television? I shall put it as gently as I can. She suffers from dandruff, from body odour, from halitosis. I could go on.
I do not for a moment believe it is true—I do not know, but the terrorisation of suggestion is not comparable to reading a newspaper, in which one can perhaps read a Sunday columnist if one
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has nothing else to do, or can look at the advertising if one wishes. But to see actors come and act a part and all declare that they only smoke such and such a cigarette—it is not true. And all the time is this monster of a 100 per cent. concentrated interest at any given moment. They thrust and thrust until it becomes an interference with the whole way of life. That is why I agree so much with what the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South said.
I was also very much impressed because both the right hon. Gentleman and I remember, I am afraid, the first motor car, the first telephone, the first bicycle. All those have been in our time, but in those days what was life like in an ordinary home? In Canada life was very much the same as here, but more comfortable because of our central heating. We read—started with Dickens, went on to Thackeray, moved through the French writers, and had an Oscar Wilde period; we had concerts, we made our own music.
I have in my house a radio set, and now I have a television set. The piano remains silent; I am afraid the radio remains silent. This White Paper is a death sentence on what is left of radio. Radio is finished—I do not think that can be stopped. The moment sight is added to sound, one cannot do without the other, it is so elemental. Therefore, I do not see why anybody is worried about the necessary revenue for television. The sale of radio sets will fall and fall all the time and the sale of television sets will go up, and the result of that will be to give television the revenue it requires.
Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: The B.B.C., in their evidence, in Appendix XII, page 84, forecast that by 1958 the total number of licences will be 3½ million. Is my hon. Friend saying that that is quite erroneous evidence, that the B.B.C.'s best estimates are quite wrong and that many more television sets will be bought at present prices and Purchase Tax rates?
Mr. Baxter: If there is enough material to produce the sets sales will be much greater than that. It means that we are now all conniving at the beginning of the end of sound radio; the other will replace it, we cannot help it.

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It is a great pity that the House is dividing tonight on the B.B.C. Charter. I do not think that it is a party question at all. The Home Secretary said, "Let us have no party polemics," but we all know that the Government have issued a three-line Whip for tonight. I am very sorry, but I say quite frankly that since it is a three-line Whip I shall vote in the Lobby because I would rather have sponsored programmes than a Socialist Government. I shall vote with a heavy heart simply because I do not want this Government out.
I wish to make a final suggestion. If it could be done, would it be possible for the Government to say that there will be further discussion on policy concerning sponsored programmes; and that they will be willing again to submit the matter for further debate? I say that because this is an inadequate debate, as many people who want to speak will not be allowed to do so. I think it is altogether wrong that the Government should force a decision before the House has had a chance properly to consider this question.
I think the majority of the Government supporters are whole-heartedly with the Government, but there are a number of us who are not in this case. I ask therefore whether it is possible to have a further chance of debate. In that way we shall add dignity to the Government and to the House of Commons.
7.11 p.m.
Mr. Edward Shackleton: The speech to which we have just listened does, I think, show that if a free vote were taken tonight the House would give a clear opinion to the country that we were opposed to sponsored radio. Unfortunately, due to the party system, which otherwise I am strongly in favour of, that is not possible.
The speech that we have heard from the hon. Member for Southgate (Mr. Baxter) does enable us now to discuss this whole question again without reference to political parties, but at the same time in the knowledge—and I am sorry I should have to repeat what has just been said—that the pressure which has grown up for sponsored television has coincided with the advent in this House of a number of hon. Members who, I know, would quite honestly admit their vested interest in sponsored radio.
Mr. Pitman: Oh, no!
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: As I am in the radio trade, I feel I have to rise on that point, which appears to be a direct allegation that we are doing this because we are going to get money out of it. The number of radio sets and television sets which industry can sell was controlled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech on 29th January. We are doing this, not because of any monetary gain, but because we have fought ever since 1945 in our constituencies on the theme of trust the people—set the people free to choose their own programmes.
Mr. Shackleton: I shall discuss this as fairly as I can. It is natural for human beings, in whatever job they are, to believe, generally speaking, in the Tightness of the work they are doing. But it is also a fact that this pressure has developed since the advent in this House of hon. Gentlemen such as the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing).
I have taken part, or tried to take part, in every debate on broadcasting in this House and it is very marked how much the atmosphere has changed with regard to the subject of commercial radio. The hon. Member made a specific point that there is no financial interest at stake in this matter and that he himself is personally not interested from that side. I naturally accept what he says, but I am very certain that the radio companies do not take that view. Indeed, if they do take that view why, then, did he make a speech, or attempt to make a speech the other night—I think it was the hon. Member—to the Institute of Electrical Engineers?
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing indicated assent.
Mr. Shackleton: It was a speech in which he did hold out hopes to the radio industry of opportunities for expanding their trade due to the admission of sponsored television. I hope the hon. Member will have a chance to speak on this point so that we may hear his view. We have yet to hear the views of an out-and-out supporter of sponsored radio, and we shall look forward to it.
I had intended to leave the few remarks I hope to make on sponsorship until the end of my speech, because I should like to turn straight to the point which was discussed at some length by the Home

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Secretary about the Broadcasting Councils. I think it important that in the course of this debate we should not lose sight of the need to examine the B.B.C. internally and to consider its administration.
We are all agreed, whether we are in favour of sponsorship or opposed to it, that it is highly desirable that the B.B.C. shall give full scope to its programme staff and everybody in it to develop their activities with the maximum amount of freedom within that organisation. Indeed, some of my hon. Friends would go further and break up the B.B.C. into separate components, into several national corporations. I am not in favour of that, and I am not at all happy about the proposals for Broadcasting Councils. I should like to deploy some arguments on this point.
I think the proposals with regard to the method of appointment are unsound, for the same reasons as my right hon. Friend gave with regard to the appointment by trustees of national Governors. I believe it is the responsibility of the Government and I think that the Government, in consultation with the B.B.C., are the best people to make those appointments. That, however, is not the major issue. What I object to is what I think the Postmaster-General, in another place, called the untidiness of the proposals; and I am in particular difficulty when I see that it is to be the duty of the Broadcasting Councils
"to control the policy and content of their Home Service programmes."
It seems to me that might expose the producers in those regions to precisely the type of pressure which is objectionable from wherever it may come, whether from the sponsor or from a log-rolling local interest.
This is a very serious problem. We did have an opportunity to discuss it when the late Government came forward with proposals which I am glad to say have been modified slightly in a more favourable way and a way in which I should like them to go. But the basic need in the B.B.C. is that the producers should be free to do their job within the policy laid down by the B.B.C. This proposal for control over the contents and policy of the regional Home Service pro-
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grammes is very dangerous, and will need a great deal more discussion than has yet been given to it.
I challenged the Home Secretary on the point about the appointment of staff wholly employed in connection with the Home Service programmes. I asked him to name any member of a regional staff who could be described as wholly employed in connection with the Home Service programmes. It was not reasonable, I suppose, to expect that he should be able to answer right off, but I assure him that there is nobody, so far as I know, in the regions who can be described as wholly employed in connection with the Home Service programme of that region.
Let me take the case of a talks producer or a features producer. He may be called on to produce a programme for the National Service or even for the Overseas Service and therefore, although his predominant function may be in the Home Service, it is wrong to describe him as wholly employed in connection with the Home Service. It does help to strengthen the case I am anxious to make that he will in fact, and must in fact, be a full-time member of the B.B.C. on exactly the same terms as all the rest of the staff of the B.B.C. I do not see how that can be if in fact his appointment is to be by an outside body.
Surely, normally the appointing body has power also of sacking. We might, I am not saying we would, because I hope good reason will prevail, but we might find a situation in which a local Broadcasting Council were very insistent that a particular man or woman be appointed to a B.B.C. job who was regarded by the central establishment of the B.B.C.—for what appeared to be valid reasons—as not suitable for that job. We might in due course find the B.B.C. getting rid of that person as quickly as possible. I suggest that the real solution to this problem is that the Broadcasting Councils should continue in an advisory and not an executive capacity, and that they should merely be represented on the appointments committee.
We already know that Northern Ireland does not want this responsibility. Grave difficulties will arise if this plan is carried into effect. We know the views of the B.B.C. Staff Association. It has been stressed that anybody employed by

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the B.B.C. must look to the central stall administration. If the B.B.C. officials are to give their best services it is of the utmost importance that they shall look not merely to a local Broadcasting Council, but to the B.B.C. in London as well, as the guarantors of a good career.
This brings me to the point about alternative employment. It has been suggested that if a man is sacked by the B.B.C. he cannot get another job in broadcasting. But I believe that, on the whole, the B.B.C. are good employers and that a man is not sacked simply because he is unsuitable in one job. Indeed, the B.B.C. follow the practice which all good employers should follow. If a man is unsatisfactory in one job he is given an opportunity of employment elsewhere in the Corporation.
That is one of the great advantages of the large and nation-wide B.B.C. There are wider opportunities for employment. Further, there is the cross-fertilisation which comes about through moving people from the regions to London, and so on. This proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion and not reversed, would tend to stop that sort of development.
I ask the Government to look once again at this question. It has been said that these proposals have been very carefully worked out. I do not believe that they have been worked out at all. They are a piece of theory which appeals at first glance, but in practice they are administratively unsound. If they are pursued, it will be found that they are calculated to reduce the freedom and efficiency of the individual producer with the B.B.C.
Reference to the freedom of the producer leads me to the subject of commercial radio. It is not without significance that the producer of one of the most successful programmes in this country is a refugee from commercial radio. He found plenty of scope in commercial radio until a sponsor suddenly decided to interest himself in the programmes. Then the producer found that the job was intolerable, and he moved to the B.B.C. As we are so concerned with the subject of freedom, this is a question of real importance. There is greater freedom for producers of programmes under non-commercial
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control than there is under commercial control.
Mr. Profumo: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that there is another very famous radio personality—Stewart Macpherson—who is a refugee from the B.B.C. He found it difficult to continue working for the B.B.C. He left them and is now working on commercial radio in Canada. That is a great loss to this country.
Mr. Shackleton: The point I am trying to make is that it is not good enough to suggest that a B.B.C. monopoly is something which dampens individuality and that commercial radio will increase freedom; because in some cases it will not do that.
On the general question of sponsorship, I have already mentioned that we are in some difficulty because we know that a large number of hon. Members are actively engaged in this industry. We shall be interested to hear their proposals. They will declare their interest just as I suppose we all ought to declare our interest in the B.B.C. in that we may hope to broadcast again at some time or other. But it is a responsibility of the advocates of sponsorship in commercial radio to make their case. They are proposing the change. They are the people who have to demonstrate that there is a general public demand or a need for this change.
That case has not been made. It was certainly not made by the Home Secretary. Indeed, I believe that there are grave doubts in the mind of the Government about whether they should pursue this policy. It is not enough for the Government to say, "There will be an opportunity to allow commercial radio. Therefore, we will provide that opportunity and allow the House to. discuss the licensing of the first station." Today we shall be taking a decision whether or not sponsored and commercial radio should exist in this country. I am not satisfied that a case has been made out in its favour.
Many examples have been given of the evils of sponsorship. I do not propose to discuss at length the American examples. Even if we have sponsorship we shall not fall as low as the Americans have fallen in this connection. But there is plenty of evidence that evil results spring from

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sponsored radio. We have the opportunity to compare systems in countries like Australia and Canada. For instance, we have the Report from the Royal Commission on National Development in the Arts, Letters and Sciences in Canada, of which Mr. Vincent Massey, the present Governor-General, was chairman. That states:
"We were particularly impressed by the fact that few of the representatives of private stations who appeared before us recognised any public responsibility beyond the provision of acceptable entertainment and community services.
We all agree that television and radio are of tremendous importance. I do not suggest that Whitehall should legislate for the people or that the man from Whitehall knows best. Equally, I do not believe that the man from the advertising agency knows better. Indeed, the evidence is that he does not care in the slightest. It is for that reason that we should examine this proposal with the utmost thoroughness and reject it unless an overwhelming case has been made in its favour. A further point from the Report is:
"We have observed that some of the wealthiest of the private stations have the lowest standard in programmes, and show serious neglect of their obligations as part of the national system."
That is the experience of Canada in the matter of commercial radio. The hon. Member for Hendon. North objected to the suggestion that there were low standards in commercial radio and he mentioned films. But the State intervenes to limit the type of films which may be shown to certain people. Whenever my children see an advertisement of a film in the paper they say, "Is it a 'U' or an 'A' film?" They prefer the "U" films. Usually they are much the better.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: The White Paper proposes a control commission to do exactly that. Just as in the theatre the Lord Chamberlain licences a play, so a new body is to be set up on similar lines. I cannot see why the commercial point which the hon. Gentleman stresses will necessarily drive down standards. It has not done that in the theatre or the cinema.
Mr. Shackleton: It is admitted that unfettered commercial radio would be undesirable. That is the point the hon. Member concedes by his intervention. All the evidence available—and we can
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only judge on the evidence—is that sponsored radio tends to lower standards. Until we can be convinced to the opposite effect, it is wrong for us to accept in principle a decision to admit sponsored radio.
We have had complaints from hon. Members that the Government are being too slow in letting sponsored radio begin. I am glad that the Home Secretary made the positive statement that sponsored radio would not be permitted until the B.B.C. had completed their five new low-power television stations. I think he used the word "completed," because he goes further, I am glad to say, than did the Postmaster-General in another place, when he said, in effect, that it was enough for them to be getting on well with the building of them. That, at least, is one positive gain and improvement, and indeed, a departure from the way which certain hon. Members want the Government to go.
I very much hope that the Government will go a very great deal further. I hope they will recognise that there is extreme anxiety amongst a number of hon. Members in all parties on this subject of commercial radio, and that they will refuse to take the easy way out, which is what I am afraid they have done in evolving this particular policy. This is a decision of tremendous importance, and the Government themselves, who have taken this decision, have failed to make the case for sponsored radio.
The only case they have made has, in effect, amounted to a sort of negative—"There's no harm in trying." There is the utmost potential harm in trying, unless they can show us the opposite, and therefore I hope that they will, between now and the time for the Division, think again and realise that on this subject informed opinion in the country, and indeed popular opinion as shown in the Gallup polls, is opposed to the introduction of sponsored radio in this country.
7.32 p.m.
Captain Christopher Soames: I was most interested to hear the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackle-ton), saying that no one from this side of the House had put the case in favour of sponsored radio. I would say that nobody from the other side of the House has put the case in favour of maintaining a monopoly. In principle, I am against

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monopolies, but some are inevitable I think that the onus of proving that any monopoly is necessary, or that it can give better service to the community than competitive enterprise in the same field, must rest with the monopoly or with those who champion it.
I have not yet been convinced by any arguments used either in this House, in another place or outside, which lead me to believe that the public get a better service from the B.B.C. as a monopoly than they would get if competitive enterprise were allowed in this field.
Mr. Ross: Does that mean that the hon. and gallant Gentleman disagrees with Paragraph 5 of the White Paper?
Captain Soames: I have not got it with me; what does it say?
Mr. Ross: It says:
"The Government recognise that this effective monopoly has done much to establish the excellent and reputable broadcasting service for which this country is renowned and that the B.B.C. have become an important part of the structure of our national life."
Captain Soames: I would be the first to agree that the B.B.C. has done a great deal in our national life towards the furthering of broadcasting, but I am quite convinced that a better service can be provided for the public if competitive enterprise is allowed in.
What is the most common argument which has been used so far by those who are in favour of the maintenance of the monopoly? It is, surely, that commercial radio, if introduced, will lower the tone of broadcasting. That is the major argument put forward. I must say that I regard that assumption, for it is an assumption, as both fantastic and erroneous. The B.B.C. is a monopoly, and they can put anything they like over the air, within certain broad limits of censorship, regardless of whether any particular programme is popular or not, whereas a commercial enterprise putting out its programmes on sponsored radio must pay regard to what are called listening figures.
I agree that the B.B.C. do take note of listening figures, but what they are nobody knows, because they are kept strictly secret and are not published. The public do not have access to them, and I think that is a serious defect in the
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present system. Here we have a rigid monopoly which is able to transmit anything it chooses, and the popularity of whose programmes can only be measured by listening figures which are known only by the top men at the B.B.C. who have access to them. What would be lost if these figures were made public? I dare say that the B.B.C. would not like it, but I am quite sure that the public would, and, surely, that is what matters.
In the case of commercial broadcasting, the sponsor wants to see good listening figures among the sections of the public to whom he is appealing, and, if he does not get them, he will change his programmes and put on something more popular. I agree that listening figures are not the only criterion by which a good programme can be judged. Obviously, we all know that a good variety programme will be listened to by more people in this country than a good symphony concert on the Third Programme, but the B.B.C. should know by now what sort of listening figures it should have for a good variety programme and what sort it should have for a good symphony concert.
It should be able to say whether or not a feature is popular by these figures, and I think that, as the B.B.C. is a rigid monopoly at the moment, the public have a right to have access to these figures. In the case of commercial broadcasting, the sponsor is going to see that he gets value for his money. He wants popular programmes put over, and what better assurance can the public have that they will be getting the kind of programme which they want to have?
Mr. Mayhew: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman distinguishing between the size of an audience which is attracted by a programme and the degree of their like or dislike of it? There is no secret that the B.B.C. Research Department, to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has referred, has two sets of figures, one for the size of the audience and the other for its appreciation. The point which I think is weakening his case is that the programmes which get the large audiences are often those which are least liked, and that those which attract small audiences get the largest appreciation figures, and that is because small audiences appeal to particular tastes. The question I would ask him is this: How does the

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sponsored programme, which appeals to the largest audiences, avoid wiping out the minority programmes, which are often the most popular of all?
Captain Soames: If a minority want to listen to a symphony concert from the B.B.C., they will still do so. The B.B.C. will remain as it is, and the Third Programme will still be there, so that this minority which wishes to listen to a symphony concert, rather than a variety programme from a commercial station, will still be able to tune in to the symphony orchestra.
This is the very root of the argument of those who favour the monopoly. It is that, under the monopoly system, the people of this country are going to be given what they ought to see and hear and which is considered to be good, and that, under a competitive system, they are going to get what they want to see and hear, which is considered to be bad. Surely, in this House we must regard that as a most insulting argument.
That is the gist of the argument put forward by those in favour of monopoly. It is the argument that, under a monopoly, the people will be given anything except what they want to listen to. It is the argument that what the public would like to hear or see is not good for them, and that if they hear and look at the form of entertainment which they would like to have it is going to have a lowering effect on public morals. I must say that I see no reason at all why broadcasting and television should be the only mediums of entertainment which are confined to a monopoly.
Mr. Janner: The hon. and gallant Gentleman was in the United States some little time ago. Would he tell the House whether he was impressed by the kind of thing he saw on television over there?
Captain Soames: I was not there very long, and I did not look at their television programmes an awful lot. I did, however, see Mr. Taft being grilled by a lot of newsmen in a way which I must say one would not find very suitable over here. But I am likening the system which the Government are putting forward in the White Paper as nearer to the Canadian than to the American system. I think that the system works extremely well in Canada, and also in Australia.
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As I was saying, I see no reason why broadcasting and television should be the only mediums of entertainment in which the people are allowed no choice and no variance. I think it is widely agreed that where a monopoly is concerned the onus of proof as to whether or not that monopoly is necessary must lie with those who favour the monopoly rather than with those who are opposed to it. I have yet to hear from hon. Members opposite any argument to show that the monopoly is either necessary or beneficial. Much better arguments must be deployed by the Opposition if they are to persuade the public that this monopoly is good, is beneficial and is necessary. I do not believe that those arguments will ever be found because they do not exist.
I think that the principle outlined in the White Paper of maintaining the B.B.C. in more or less its present form and of licensing commercial T.V. stations as and when the necessary raw materials are available is a good one. I fully appreciate that the B.B.C. must be permitted to get some way further towards their programme of nation-wide coverage, but I would ask my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to bear in mind that the B.B.C. are very naturally hostile to any private interest coming into the field of broadcasting. Therefore, I hope that proper safeguards will be made to ensure that the B.B.C. make the best possible use of what raw materials are available so that the time-lag involved before commercial stations can be set up will not be very long.
It is bound to be a considerable time—probably many years—but meanwhile there is one aspect of television where I, like the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) who spoke earlier, think that the public are not being properly treated. Look how few of the main sporting events are televised today. There is no doubt that television is an excellent medium for bringing into the homes of the people all the great sporting events which take place in the country and which play such a part in our national life.
Under the present system, very few of these sporting events are televised because the B.B.C. cannot afford to pay what the promoters demand, and, in my view, justly demand. The hon. Member for Keighley said he thought that the promoters and companies which launched

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the great sporting events were mean. That was the word he used. But, strange as it may seem to hon. Members opposite, these promoters and companies launch these big sporting events with the object and intention of making money. I do not think that is mean; I think it is logical and natural. The promoter fears, and not without justification, that if his event is televised a number of people who would be coming to watch, say, his big boxing contest will sit at home and watch it on television, and that he will not get their money.
The B.B.C. is only in a position to offer the promoters a paltry sum, a nominal fee, and it is not worth their while to allow the B.B.C. to have the television rights. It may interest hon. Members to know that when the world middle-weight championship was being fought at Earls Court on 10th July last year between Randolph Turpin and Sugar Ray Robinson, the programme put out on television by the B.B.C. while the fight was in progress was a talk on scientific instruments used in the year 1799. I think there is no doubt that the public would have preferred to see the fight.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: So what.
Captain Soames: The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) says "So what." That is what, that the public would have preferred to see the fight, and they did not see it.
When the Derby was run this year a second-class American thriller was televised, and every year more and more sporting promoters decide that it is not worth their while to allow the B.B.C. to televise their events. If this trend continues much longer no big sporting events will be televised at all.
Take, for instance, the Cup Final. In 1948, 1949 and 1950 the Cup Final was televised in toto. In 1951, the B.B.C. televised only the second half. It was not a question of not televising the first half because they wanted to put out another programme; there was nothing on the screen while the first half was being played. In 1952 none of the Cup Final was televised, and last Saturday the Football League—this is printed in the "Star," a journal which has doubtless endeared itself considerably to all hon.
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Members opposite—passed a resolution to the effect that there will be no television of league matches and that the Football Association are to be asked not to allow television at Saturday matches or the Cup Final.
It is evident that in this particular field of television there is a gap to be filled. It is a gap between what the people would like to see—and what I have no doubt the B.B.C. would like to give them if they could afford it—and what the B.B.C. is actually in a position to provide owing to lack of funds.
Mr. S. Silverman: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggesting that if we had sponsored television greater fees would be paid and so we would get them? In that case, may I ask who would be paying them and where the money would be coming from?
Captain Soames: Yes, certainly. I am just about to unfold the argument. There are only two possible propositions. One is that suggested by the hon. Member for Keighley, which I found rather totalitarian. It was, force the promoters to take it. Just march on to the ground with the cameras accompanied by policemen and say, "These boys are going to televise your event." I do not think that would be in keeping with our English way of life. The only suggestion I have thought of is that the B.B.C. should act as a commercial station for the televising of sporting events and that they themselves should control both the duration and the substance of any advertisement put over.
Let the B.B.C. decide what events they would like to broadcast. Promoters would then be approached by advertising agencies on behalf of their clients, who would doubtless offer them a considerable sum of money. In my opinion the whole programme should be in the hands of the B.B.C. They should run it and use their own cameras and their own commentators and should vet and agree to the wording of any advertising which is to be put out over the programme. The promoter would be paid by the advertising agency an agreed sum of money. In addition, in my view, the sponsor should pay to the B.B.C. a further 20 per cent. of what he pays to the promoter. That would certainly more than cover any ex-

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penses which might be incurred by the B.B.C. in putting the programme over the air.
Mr. S. Silverman: What I was interested in was where the advertising agency would get the money. Would it be added to the price of the commodity advertised, or would it be a deductable expense for Income Tax as most advertising is? If the latter, would not the Government be still finding the money and finding more money than they are able to find or think they ought to find for the B.B.C. today?
Captain Soames: The advertising agency would be paid money by a firm which would regard that as expenditure on advertising in exactly the same way as a firm does if it advertises in the "Daily Herald" or, if the hon. Member prefers, in the "Daily Worker."
Mr. Silverman Mr. Silverman rose——
Captain Soames: I am sorry, but I do not intend to be interrupted any more. It would be up to the B.B.C. to decide what sporting events they wished to televise. They would be party to every agreement so that nothing could be done against their will. And in order to safeguard both the B.B.C. and those who fear that advertisements put out over the air or on television might be in bad taste, no word of advertising would be added without the prior consent of the B.B.C.
Apart from the totalitarian suggestion of the hon. Member for Keighley, what I have suggested is the only way to ensure that the public would not be denied the pleasure that they would so dearly like of watching these big sporting events on television. This suggestion may shock the purists on both sides of the House who think the B.B.C. should not be mixed up with any form of advertising at all. But, of course, as soon as commercial stations are set up it will no longer be necessary for the B.B.C. to do this work. It will be taken over by commercial stations.
I ask the Government to give serious consideration to the problem of how they can have these big sporting events televised to the homes of the people. There is no ground for saying that if the B.B.C. are allowed to sponsor sporting events sponsorship will spread to all sorts of
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programmes. That is not true, because this difficulty is only found in the field of sports. Sporting events, above all others, are subjects for which television is highly suitable; and these are the one type of programme which is denied to people, many of whom have bought television sets in order to be able to look at sporting events.
All parties would stand to gain from this suggestion. First, the promoter gets his money and. why not, since otherwise he will not allow the sporting event to be televised? The B.B.C. are able to televise a popular event, the viewing public have what they like to have. The only objection to it could be that a minute or 90 seconds in every half-hour, or only 5 per cent. of the time, would be devoted to advertising. One can compare that with newspapers, which on the average use 20 per cent, of their space for advertising, and with magazines, many of which use up to 33 per cent. of their space on advertising. Compared with those figures, it is not much to ask for 5 per cent.
Nobody need listen to these few words of advertising if they do not want to do so, and they certainly need not buy the product afterwards. I really do not think that is a very great price to pay for the vast amount of pleasure that thus would be given to the public.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. John Taylor: I propose to exercise very great self-restraint and not mention monopolies or sponsored radio. I propose to deal exclusively with paragraphs 21 and 22 of the White Paper, which refer to broadcasting policy for Scotland and for Wales. The present White Paper agrees with the previous White Paper and with the Beveridge Report that there should be a greater measure of devolution.
It agrees that this United Kingdom is not composed of one country but of three-and-a-quarter countries. It agrees that each of these countries, in this matter at least, should have recognition of the fact that each has its distinctive culture and should have greater control over its own broadcasting. Obviously, as successive Governments and the Royal Commission have all agreed on this point, national devolution in one form or another has to come.

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On the whole I think it is true to say that it will be welcomed by majority opinion in Scotland—by people who have no particular political nationalistic tendencies. It ought to be mentioned that there is a minority of people who look upon this voyage into unchartered and unknown seas with some misgivings and some qualms because really the B.B.C. have served Scotland well. A tribute ought to be paid, even though briefly in one sentence, to the excellent service they have provided. Even those who have criticised that service on many occasions and have got very hot under the collar about it agree that on the whole the service from the B.B.C. Scottish Service has been good—excellent is perhaps a more appropriate word.
But this devolutionary development seems to be inevitable, and therefore we must be sure that it is planned along the right lines. There are great dangers inherent in such a development. If the controlling Councils are badly constituted or unwisely constituted, if their powers are unwisely or ambiguously defined, incalculable harm can result. That harm can be done very easily: it will be very much more difficult and perhaps impossible to undo it.
I submit, therefore, that we should examine the proposals for national Broadcasting Councils both for Scotland and Wales—I am mainly concerned with Scotland—contained in paragraphs 21 and 22 of the White Paper with the utmost care. I think it could reasonably be argued that what these paragraphs propose is not really devolution at all. At any rate, there is no remarkable devolutionary advance proposed in these paragraphs compared with what now exists. It is an opinion held by many Scots that these proposals may well produce worse programmes than the kind we now receive.
I should like to examine first the proposed method of appointment to the national Broadcasting Council for Scotland. The same machinery is proposed for the Welsh Council. The proposal is that the Council should be selected for appointment by a panel of the B.B.C. General Advisory Council. Speaking on behalf of Scottish Members on this side of the House, I do not think that would do at all. This proposal will meet—indeed it has already met—with the most
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strenuous opposition from all sections of opinion in Scotland. By some it will be regarded as a negation of the principle of devolution and as striking right at the very heart and core of that principle. By others it will be regarded as a much less satisfactory method than the existing and past practice. We earnestly urge the Government to think again on this matter, and we ask them not to ruin the whole scheme, which has some good points, by creating resistance to the method of appointment.
Secondly, it is proposed that the Scottish Council should consist of eight members. We have no objection to that number—it seems a reasonable number—but we have the most stringent objections to the suggested method of appointing its personnel. It is suggested that of the eight members, three
"would be drawn from panels representative of local authorities."
What on earth does that mean to any Scot? Who decides what is a panel representative of local authorities? How many will be on that panel? How would the panel make its choice? Would it make its choice on grounds of cultural capacity or of administrative experience or of outstanding personality, or what? Is it not likely that the panel would tend to appoint one representative of the County Councils Association, one representative of the Counties and Cities Association and one representative of the burgh councils?
Any of us who know anything about the setup of local government in Scotland know that there would be a tendency to make the choice on that vertical line. If so, the 32 county councils which were unrepresented would have a grievance, as would the three unrepresented cities and well over 100 burghs which were unrepresented. The District Councils Association would, as usual, stake its claim, and the Convention of Royal Burghs would insist upon a hearing, if not upon a seat.
Whoever devised the membership on a local authority basis could have known nothing whatever of the background of local government in Scotland. I know that a similar proposal appeared in the last White Paper. It was strenuously opposed by my colleagues who were then on the opposite side of the House. It is even more strenuously opposed on this

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occasion because we feel that the Government ought to have learned something from the overwhelming and, indeed, practically unanimous opposition to which that basis gave rise in Scotland on the last occasion. So we say to the Government: forget the local authorities as a recruiting ground; you will thereby save yourselves and Scotland a good deal of trouble and much avoidable controversy.
Then it is proposed that the other five of the eight members should be
"appointed after consultation with representative cultural, religious and other bodies."
Let us examine that for a moment. What is a cultural body?
Mr. Janner: The advertisers.
Mr. Taylor: We can imagine, particularly in Scotland, the confusion, the heartburnings and arguments which would break out all over the country over that definition. The thousands of bodies which imagine themselves to be cultural and which are not consulted will have a grievance and very probably a prejudice against the persons chosen.
Mr. Janner: Would my hon. Friend Friend perhaps add that the advertisers should be consulted as a cultural body, to help out hon. Members opposite?
Mr. Taylor: That is a point. Perhaps I may refer to it in a moment. The bodies that are not consulted will have a grievance.
I cannot escape the feeling that the panel, consisting probably of Englishmen with perhaps one or two Scots, are storing up for themselves much trouble if they intend to consult religious bodies, although this might be avoided as Scots on the whole have a great deal of common sense in such matters.
The other section to be consulted is defined as "other bodies." What does that mean?—political parties, trade unions, professional organisations, chambers of commerce, youth organisations, women's guilds, the Scottish Football Association—why not?—women's institutes, temperance organisations, clan associations, tenants' associations and the advertisers? The possibilities are endless. We can imagine the hornets' nests, jealousies, antagonisms and resistance, to say nothing of the log-rolling, pressure grouping and special interest pushing
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that such a proposal would create. The whole conception is much too vague. The language is much too ambiguous. The whole thing is much too dangerously controversial. Indeed, it is too half-baked for serious consideration.
Let me make a practical proposal to the Government in this connection. There was during the war—and I believe it is still in a state of suspended existence—an excellent little group of prominent Scotsmen which rendered impressive service and advice not only to Scotland but to Britain during the war. It was known as the Council of Ex-Secretaries of State. I suggest that the Government might consider allowing that Council to select the eight members of the Scottish Broadcasting Council.
I make that suggestion because it is so obviously a non-party organisation, and I believe the judgment of that Council would be accepted by every responsible Scotsman and Scotswoman. There would be much less controversy and trouble over their decisions than over the decisions of any other group that one could imagine in our country. If that Council is not still in existence it could be called together. Let us look at its personnel. It consists of the present. Secretary of State for Scotland, my right hon. Friends the Members for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) and Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), the right hon. Tom Johnston and, I believe, the noble Lord who was once known as Sir John Colville, Lord Clydesmuir. I do not think there are any others.
Mr. C. N. Thornton-Kemsley: The Earl of Rosebery.
Mr. Taylor: Whatever others there are, they do not represent opinion on this side of the House, so it will be seen that my suggestion has no political strings attached to it. It would be a perfectly balanced council politically, culturally and in many other ways—a council of eminent Scotsmen whose judgment could be relied upon by everyone in Britain. If the Government are unable to accept the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. M. MacPherson), that a simple way to do this would be to leave the responsibility in the hands of the Secretary of

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State—I do not see why they should not accept it—this is an alternative suggestion for them to consider. So much for the method of appointment of the Council.
Now for a word or two about the Council's proposed function. Paragraph 21 states that the Council would be responsible for the appointment of staff. I say nothing about its programme responsibilities because that was dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs, but I have very great doubts about the wisdom of making the Council wholly responsible for the staff appointed.
I believe that the staff required for programme building, devising and representation, for technical matters and for administration are highly skilled people in the main. It is a specialised sort of job, and I cannot escape the feeling that the selection, appointment and decision as to the number appointed is a job more for controller responsibility than for a heterogeneous council of half-time unpaid amateurs such as the proposed Council envisaged. I think there are very grave dangers in placing that responsibility upon that type of council. We must remember that it is a question of the careers of these people and, no matter along what lines it develops in the future, it is a fairly narrow field, and one would like to feel that the professional status is recognised by the people who have the appointing responsibility.
Then there is the controversial point of finance. Here I may be at cross-purposes with my right hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards), who may be replying to this debate from this side. The White Paper proposes that the Scottish Council should have merely advisory powers as far as finance is concerned. The purse strings will be held by the Corporation in London. To some extent that stultifies from the very beginning the idea of Scottish devolution by means of a Scottish Council. It seems to me to be financially strangling it at birth.
I recognise that final financial responsibility must rest with the B.B.C. as the national controlling authority, but I think it is quite possible and, indeed, essential, that a new set-up like this, endeavouring to extend national responsibility and national scope, should have, at least over
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a period of years, some financial minimum guarantee and some sum set aside as a minimum for development. Without some financial control the Council cannot be said to be autonomous, and it makes a mockery of all the high-sounding talk of devolution.
In the field of television, what hopes have we in Scotland of an adequate development, or even of Scottish status, if we have not some financial autonomy such as a guarantee, over a period of years, of a minimum budgeted sum, with a pool also for development and expansion?
For this and other reasons which I have not the time to go into—because I have a great deal of sympathy with hon. Members who are anxiously watching the clock, having been in their position so many times myself—I cannot regard the White Paper as being anything like satisfactory. I ask the Government to take the objections and proposals—which have been quite sincerely presented—into careful consideration when the Charter is being drafted, if they cannot agree to change their minds now.
8.13 p.m.
Mr. John Profumo: I hope that the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor) will not think me discourteous if I do not follow him but, in view of the lateness of the hour, I think it would be unfair to take up more of the time of the House than is necessary. I therefore propose to deal with just one aspect of this White Paper and to talk only on the question of breaking the monopoly of the B.B.C.
I think it is customary in this House that where one has an interest one should declare it at the outset. I gladly declare my interest, right at the beginning: but I would say that I have no connection whatsoever with any advertising firm, in spite of the fact that—I am sure it was not done on purpose—the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) was pointing at me the whole way through his speech. I have absolutely no connection with any radio industry or other industry. I have one interest, which is that of an average listener, viewer and licence-payer. I think I share that interest with 90 per cent. of the householders and families of this country, and it is on their behalf

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that I wish to address the House for a few minutes this evening. [Interruption.] I hope I am speaking on their behalf. I should like to try to express what I believe is their view.
The Amendment put down by the Opposition regrets the implication of sponsored television at some future date. I agree. I do not like the implication. I wholeheartedly support the White Paper, though I cannot welcome it because I do not think it is sufficiently explicit. I do not like mere indications. I should have liked to see it come out flatly in favour of breaking the B.B.C. monopoly, not only in vision but in sound broadcasting. I know that a considerable number of my hon. Friends are greatly perturbed by a declaration of policy which, at first sight, can be read in two ways.
I am basing my support for the White Paper on three assumptions. First of all, I assume that the Government mean to allow competitive television stations to start operating at the earliest possible time. Secondly, I assume there will be no delay in giving the radio industry the necessary technical information to allow them as soon as possible to start producing television sets capable of receiving both the B.B.C. and competitive stations. Thirdly, I assume that the controlling body which is mentioned in paragraph 9 of the White Paper will be set up in the near future to start working out the safeguards under which competitive television stations will have to operate in order that this House may have an early opportunity of considering that very important factor and not have to wait until these stations are in operation and then go through the whole rigmarole.
With regard to the question of setting up these stations at the earliest possible date, I should be very grateful for any assurance which my hon. Friend can give, particularly with regard to a passage from the speech of the Home Secretary, which perturbed me to a great degree. Perhaps that could be cleared up so that we could know that the assumptions on which I am supporting this White Paper are clearly recognised.
The question of breaking the monopoly has been widely discussed and canvassed both in the newspapers and in another
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place. I am not sure that it has been discussed entirely fairly all the way through, but there have been no complaints from hon. Members opposite that no case has been made out for breaking the monopoly. All the verbiage and oratory in favour of keeping the monopoly boils down to three cardinal arguments. First of all, it is said that to break the monopoly would put broadcasting in the hands of the advertisers; secondly, that the public do not want any change, and thirdly, that the standards of broadcasting would deteriorate.
Hon. Members on this side of the House have been accused of having a vested interest in the breaking of this monopoly. Many remarks have been thrown across the Floor of the House tonight to that effect. Though they have been made in a friendly way, the charge has been levelled at my hon. Friends. But the boot is on the other foot.
Who are these people, in the main, who seek to lay down the law so vehemently in favour of maintaining the monopoly? They are all people who have themselves a vested interest in maintaining the monopoly. Who are they? First of all, the Labour Party. They have a vested interest in maintaining the monopoly. It is an essential plank in their platform. Competition is anathema to hon. Gentlemen opposite. It spells ruin to Socialist theories. Who else? There is a certain section of the Press which has been——
Mr. Percy Daines: Does not the hon. Member think that a far better case which he could quote would be the business experience of his right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary?
Mr. Profumo: I am sorry; I did not hear what the hon. Gentleman said. Will he be good enough to repeat it?
Mr. Daines: No, I will not.
Mr. Profumo: Well, I am sure the hon. Member was not arguing that the Labour Party do not like this monopoly. What about the Press? We can hardly expect other than that it would be difficult for them to take a completely unbiased view on the subject when they know that the Government's proposals might possibly mean the loss of some advertising revenue. I am bound to say that I do not believe that is a very serious objection, and I do not think they would

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lose any advertising revenue, for the experience in other countries, and particularly in America, does not show that to be the case at all. The more advertisement that goes on the more there is for the newspapers. Nevertheless, we cannot expect them to be completely unbiased.
Who else is there? The guardians of the B.B.C., the present officials of governing bodies and advisory councils of the Corporation, who are a very mighty host indeed, almost powerful enough to be able to intimidate the Government into complying with their dictates. Finally, there are the intellectuals, who raise their hands and voice in horror in case Mr. and Mrs. John Citizen should possibly become culturally corrupted by entertainment assuming priority over social purpose in broadcasting.
Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: Would the hon. Gentleman complete his list by telling us the people who want to get a financial interest in this undertaking?
Mr. Profumo: I think the hon. and learned Gentleman did not quite understand me. Perhaps I am speaking a little too fast for him. As I explained at the outset, in my view the people who advocate the maintenance of a monopoly must prove that a monopoly is good if they are to maintain it when it is suggested that competition should be the order of the day. I am giving the list of those who support a monopoly.
Mr. Turner-Samuels Mr. Turner-Samuels rose——
Mr. Profumo: I think the hon. and learned Gentleman has had a fair opportunity. I am full of admiration for the intellectuals, but I think we must remember that we are not a nation of intellectuals. By and large we are a nation of ordinary, average, everyday men and women like the majority of hon. Members. It is for the average listener that I am seeking to speak this evening, those who form the vast majority of the public; and in our view they deserve the best possible entertainment which can be given to them.
Mr. Daines: They ought to be here now.
Mr. Profumo: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be fortunate enough to catch the eye of Mr. Deputy-Speaker later
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if he wishes to make a speech. Just as we are not a nation of intellectuals, so we are not a nation of timid, old fashioned die-hards. We are a virile people, eager to try the experiments of this modern age, and I believe that it is the job of the Government to lead and to foster this spirit, which is why I think a Conservative Government are to be commended and supported in the proposition which they make in this White Paper.
Let us examine the three arguments which are advanced against the principle of competition. The first is that broadcasting will fall into the hands of advertisers. I speak with considerable diffidence here, because the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South is not in the Chamber, and I fully realise that he probably knows more about advertising and has used it more than any other hon. Member. Nevertheless, if he were in his place I am sure he would agree that advertisers can make use of this medium only as long as they are able to retain their audiences. They have to choose programmes which will appeal, by and large, to the greatest number of listeners and viewers, and the fact that they may do that because of their own interest seems to me immaterial.
Surely the truth must be this: programmes will not be in the hands of the advertisers but will be in the hands of the people, and that is what we are seeking to achieve. Or perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite consider that it is dangerous and undesirable for the people to have freedom of choice. If that is so, I will gladly give way so that they may say so. We are only suggesting that the people should have a choice. If they do not like the new programme, they can turn back to the B.B.C.
The chief benefit which sponsorship will render in this connection is to take the very high cost of good quality radio and television entertainment off the shoulders of the public, and I find that very commendable indeed. I think an hon. Member suggested that it would be placed on the consumer, but that is a fallacy. If goods are advertised and, as a result, more are sold, then prices can be reduced.
Mr. S. Silverman Mr. S. Silverman rose——
Mr. Profumo: May I first develop this point?
Mr. Silverman: What I have to say may be irrelevant later.
Mr. Profumo: There is no new principle involved here. Take the \A.B.C. Guide or the Telephone Directory. They are full of advertisements which are there in order that the taxpayer shall not have to pay for those Government or quasi-Government publications. The B.B.C. themselves resort to this principle and derive considerable revenue from advertisements which somebody chooses to put in the "Radio Times."
If people do not like commercial programmes and their tastes are offended, they can always twist a button and turn back to the good old B.B.C., where they will also get advertisements, but advertisements to which they are accustomed—for hotels, for restaurants, for dance bands, for theatres, advertisements with which the B.B.C. programmes are literally sprinkled every day. Because it is the B.B.C., everybody accepts them.
Mr. S. Silverman: I did not want to leave my intervention too late because it seemed that the hon. Gentleman was leaving the point. He said that the effect of this proposal would be to take the burden of the cost off the public. I did not say "consumer." What I want to know is this. Would these be regarded as legitimate advertising expenses, allowable against tax? If they were, would not the public and the taxpayer be paying the bulk of the extra cost through the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
Mr. Profumo: The hon. Gentleman's arguments are extremely clever whenever he puts them to the House, but if he really wants that point answered, he should put a Question down to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex-checquer. It is too late in the debate to be side-tracked into a discussion of whether the expenditure should be tax free or not.
Mr. James Callaghan: Is not this an important point? Is not the hon. Gentleman resting his case on the fact that the burden of the high cost will be lifted from the shoulders of the public? Is it or is it not true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) argued, that in cases where the expenditure is allowable against Income Tax or Profits Tax or E.P.L., the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be paying up to 75 per cent. of the total cost of the advertisements?
Mr. Profumo: I agree that that is a substantial point but my point is this: if the B.B.C. are able to advertise in the "Radio Times." and that is regarded as a legitimate expenditure, tax free—and either it is tax free or it is not; and hon. Members opposite will probably know the answer—then I do not see why the same principles should not apply in the case of commercial stations.
The second charge which is made against the new proposals is that the public do not want any change. It would be surprising if they did want a change, because they have never had the case put fairly and squarely to them. Would it not be nearer the truth to say, not that the public do not want a change but that certain people in the country do not want the public to want a change. By and large, the people have been led to believe that they have to choose between broadcasting according to the present standards and customs of the B.B.C and the supposed standards of bedlam of commercial broadcasting—and that is not true. In spite of that case, which has been put through the medium of newspapers and public speakers, a considerable proportion of the people in this country want a change.
An hon. Gentleman opposite, talking about Radio Luxembourg, said that in his own circle people did not listen to it. Let me try to give the House a little evidence on this point. In 1951, the "News Chronicle" published a public opinion poll and asked whether monopoly in broadcasting was considered good or bad. To that question, 52½ per cent. of the readers said that it was bad. To a supplementary question whether the B.B.C. programmes would be better if there were competition. 65 per cent. of the readers replied that it would be better.
Let us come up to date with this point. When this matter was a live issue, the "Daily Mirror" published a lot of matter about this question, as hon. Members will be aware if they read the newspaper. [An HON. MEMBER:"DO you look at ' Jane'?"] Yes of course. I chose this paper advisedly. I cannot be accused of choosing one which is friendly to us. It has obviously been of great assistance to hon. Gentlemen opposite during the Elections. I hope they will not praise it during election times and condemn it out of

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hand in between elections. The whole of the front page of the "Daily Mirror" was taken up with an article about this matter, asking readers to write and give their views.
Hon. Members opposite may be surprised to know that 63 per cent. of the letters which the "Daily Mirror" received as a result were in favour of sponsored television. [An HON. MEMBER: "How many were they?"] As a matter of fact, I am led to believe that there was not a large correspondence, which also shows that in the eyes of the public this matter is not regarded as of paramount importance. [Laughter.] If that does not convince hon. Gentlemen, I think the related question of the number of people who listen to Radio Luxembourg will. There are six million people.
Mr. Rodgers: In point of fact, 30 per cent. of the population of this country listen at some time or other to Radio Luxembourg, and the audiences number six million at peak listening periods.
Mr. Profumo: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. There are six million people, and we have to take into account the fact that we can get Radio Luxembourg only in the southern part of England. Surely that shows that people are willing to listen not only to the B.B.C. but to sponsored radio. Among our Armed Forces in Germany, the number who listen to the United States network in comparison to our own broadcasting is mounting up steadily.
Mr. Mayhew: Radio Luxembourg can be got up north. The figure of six million is completely bogus. I prefer the estimate made by the B.B.C. Listener Research which is based upon figures obtained from reliable samples. It shows 2.8 per cent. of the people listening at peak periods to Radio Luxembourg.
Mr. Profumo: I prefer the Transport House Gallup poll with regard to what the country is thinking about the Conservative and Labour Parties rather than B.B.C. figures about the people who listen to Radio Luxembourg. If there is any doubt about what people really want, the only way to settle it is to try it out and let the people choose for themselves. If they do not like sponsored television then it will not pay to advertise, and the
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whole scheme will come to an end, with no trouble to anybody at all.
May I impress this point on hon. Members opposite? The inception of commercial television will at least give a choice to the public. I wonder whether we realise sufficiently here that at the present time the monopoly in television is absolutely complete. There is no alternative programme on the B.B.C.—no "Light," "Third," or "Home" programmes. There is just one programme. If we have a television set and we do not like what we see, we have no option but to switch it off. The B.B.C. have had to admit that in the foreseeable future there is no possibility of their starting an alternative programme. If there is competition, and if we do not like the commercial service we can always switch back to the good old B.B.C., with its assured listener revenue, by which it is absolutely feather-bedded against any danger of commercialism whatsoever.
What is the final argument which has been put across the Floor of the House this afternoon? It is that the moment competition is introduced the whole level of broadcasting deteriorates and the bad will drive out good. I believe that that is an exaggerated theory, plugged for all it is worth by interested parties. The Labour Party last year in their White Paper stated that competition would result in a decline in the service. If I may borrow a facon de parler from Professor Joad, I should like to say it all depends on what is meant by service. Do we mean the service which the public want or the service which a group of individuals think the public want? That seems to be the important point.
I yield to no one in my admiration for the work which the B.B.C. has done and is doing in the social purpose broadcasting. They will continue to do it. There has been no question or suggestion by anybody that the B.B.C. should be curtailed. Let me ask this question. Since when has democracy believed that a group of individuals, however public spirited, ought to have the unchallenged right to exercise a monopoly over the mind of the nation according to a recipe of their own? I must confess I am absolutely horrified by the philosophy which recognises a State-run organisation as the sole arbiter of our taste and even our entertainment. Surely that is a signpost of a totalitarian State, and whatever hon.

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Members opposite may want, I can assure them that the people in the country do not want that.
I believe it is unfair to keep comparing what happens in America with what might happen here. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said. their standards are entirely different to our own, and I am quite convinced that we have quite a completely different standard, because our people demand something which is entirely different. Imagine everybody in this country having to accept the same standard-type of neckties because of the horrifying results of what happens in America where the people are allowed to choose what ties they want. I have every confidence in the taste and common sense of the British public in being able to choose their own entertainment without help from the politician.
What I think they want is a good variety of high level entertainment which includes the main sporting events of the year. They are bound to cost a lot of money. There has been a lot of talk this evening about the question of copyright. It is not just a question of copyright; it is a question of money. If we are going to pay the big promoter the money which they rightly demand then we are either going to charge much higher licence fees or resort to sponsored broadcasting.
Here is one example of which I heard the other day. The very famous artiste Horowitz came over here to play in the Festival Hall. The B.B.C. asked him what price he would broadcast for, and he quoted less than he gets in America. The B.B.C. said, "We cannot afford to pay you that sum, because if we paid you that we should then have to pay every artiste a higher fee." So the only people who could listen to that great artiste were those who could afford to pay to go to the Festival Hall.
I have taken too long already and must conclude. When we come to the end, what do we find? In spite of all the arguments, there are still a group of critics who persist in arguing against the suggestions which the Government are making. These critics are the Labour Party, the Press, the intellectuals and the guardians of the B.B.C. Their argument
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amounts to this. Even in spite of the safeguards which Parliament prescribes—and the White Paper lays them down—and in spite of the guarantee of everlasting life to the B.B.C, they state that we must not allow any outside choice of broadcasts by the public because they are not fit to choose between right and wrong. We have heard that argument before—the man from Whitehall knows best. These critics say, "We are going to leave this to the overlords of the air. We shall choose the overlords and then they will decide what you should listen to and what you should look at on your television screen."
Mr. Ness Edwards: Hon. Members opposite say that.
Mr. Profumo: We say that we want a wide panel to make the choice. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South said that the Government should choose these overlords, who would decide what we should look at and listen to in our homes. According to the right hon. Gentleman, they would say to the people, "You shall have no freedom of choice," and they would tell the people, on whose backs the party opposite climbed to power in the last six years, that they are not fit to choose their own entertainment.
How does that line up with "Labour believes in Britain"? The only answer that I know to that is not a very Parliamentary one—it is "Gertcha." In the name of freedom—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—whose country is this, anyway? It does not belong to the Labour Party. It does not belong to the intellectuals, to the B.B.C. or to the Press. It belongs to the people, and my hon. Friends and I on this side believe that the people have an indisputable right of choice in everything, including their entertainment.
The great American statesman Thomas Jefferson once said that
"The sum total of the common sense of the common people is the greatest force on earth."
I believe that in this question we should leave the choice to the common sense of the people. It is not our right as politicians to stop them trying out an experiment of this sort. We can only test it out by letting them try it out themselves, and I believe that if we leave it to their common sense we will do the right thing.
8.42 p.m.
Rev. Llywelyn Williams: I want to commence a speech which, I hope, will be very brief by repeating and underlining what was said by the Home Secretary when he opened the debate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the B.B.C. as being unsurpassed, if not unequalled, in the whole world. That statement has, by and large, been repeated by other hon. Members on both sides of the House. If it is true, I cannot see what validity there can be in the arguments put forward by hon. Members opposite in favour of sponsored television as an initial stage and possibly of sponsored radio at a later stage.
I was impressed by one typical piece of Conservative arrogance. It was a statement made by the hon. and gallant Member for Bedford (Captain Soames). He said that the onus of proof against the introduction of sponsored television lay completely on this side of the House. That statement is typical of the mentality of those on the benches opposite.
The B.B.C. has been in existence for many years and has increasingly won for itself a very high reputation. Why should the onus of proof for a continuation of a system which the Home Secretary described as unsurpassed, if not unequalled. rest with those who believe in its continuance? Rather, I suggest, the onus of proof for the introduction of sponsored television lies on the other side, whose arguments today have been far from convincing.
There has been a strange similarity between the arguments we have heard today and those that were put forward from the other side some time ago when the Government insisted upon changing the set-up of public houses in the new towns. The same arguments for doing away with State public houses and introducing private enterprise public houses have been adduced today with regard to sponsored television.
When I hear the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Profumo) or any other hon. Member opposite using such words as "freedom" or "enterprise," I instinctively look for the vested interests which are camouflaged by such terms. All the arguments we have heard have been of the same pattern. The real question is whether the introduction of
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sponsored television as an initial step—and, I have no illusion in my mind, sponsored full radio as a further step—would better the B.B.C. service as we know it today? Can that be proved?
Will hon. Members opposite tell us, with their hands on their hearts, that they genuinely believe that there are not enough facilities within the existing setup to cater for all the tastes in culture, entertainment and education that we have in this country today? Do they believe that the sponsored system would be better? Are they really not more concerned with the advertisers than with the-listening public? Naturally, the arguments have been to propagate the interests of the listening public, but they sound very hollow, very sham and phoney. What we have heard is the voice of the advertisers, of the great businesses of this country, and we have recognised that voice now for a long time.
Mr. Profumo: Did the hon. Member, who is referring to me, not hear me say that I am not an advertiser?
Mr. Richard Fort: Can the hon. Member tell the House that he and his party are the only people speaking for the people?
Rev. LI. Williams: Naturally I would not say that, but I would equally dispute the right of hon. Members opposite to say that they are speaking on behalf of the listening public when I believe that they are speaking on behalf of business interests and vested interests.
Mr. Profumo: On a point of order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to make an imputation of that nature—that those of us speaking on this side of the House are speaking with the voice of advertising?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): It is not in order to impute motives to hon. Members making speeches.
Rev. LI. Williams: I wish to come to one or two criticisms of the proposals of the White Paper in regard to appointments. I am not satisfied with the setting up of a small Committee to appoint the Governors, however distinguished the personnel of that Committee may be. I think the appointment of the Governors could be done, as on previous occasion,

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by the Prime Minister. I have heard it suggested that the reason the Government are insisting on this Committee is that they believe this country will not see another Conservative Prime Minister for the next 50 years.
The Governors are important people. The Home Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) both emphasised the importance of the Governors. Surely we can entrust the appointment of Governors to the Prime Minister. He chooses the bishops and they are important people—at least the Editor of Crockford's Clerical Directory seems to think so. The Prime Minister also appoints Governors of Colonies and they are very important personages. I am not convinced that the setting up of this Committee is necessary.
Another criticism I Have to offer is the appointing of whole-time staff by the Broadcasting Councils. I am opposed to that because I have very good reason for believing that the staffs concerned are vehemently opposed to this method of appointment, and I believe that their wishes in this matter should be consulted.
I wish to refer to the constitution of the national Broadcasting Councils. I agree in part with the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor), though Wales does not enjoy the dignified status of having a Secretary of State for Wales, although I hope the Home Secretary will allow me to accept him as being at least one sign of something approaching that direction. Nevertheless, I believe that these suggestions in the White Paper are a very helpful compromise. We, on our side, put forward a proposal for a larger sort of Council, but what is contained in the White Paper is, I believe, a helpful and genuine attempt to try to meet the wishes of both sides of the House on this point.
The only other suggestion I should like to make to the Home Secretary is that instead of the five-three apportionment I should have preferred a four-four apportionment, so that we could have one representative each from the county council, the borough council, the urban district council and the rural district council, giving us a complete cross-section of life in Wales.
I conclude with a reference to the tremendous possibilities in broadcasting, in
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particular with regard to the development of the essential nationhood of a nation like Scotland and one like Wales, for which naturally I speak. I am very concerned about the future of my own nation, and I hope that the English Members will listen to me sympathetically and understandingly on this point. There is no doubt whatever that the English way of life as it is understood will remain: there are enough Englishmen to ensure that, and English culture is so widely diffused, so universally recognised, that there can be no possible doubt about the future status of what we call English culture or the English way of life.
Wales, however, is a small nation, and in the strains and stresses of this standardising age in which we live, I must confess to a very genuine and sincere concern about that nation. We are to have this new Charter for the next 10 years. I believe, speaking generally, that on the lines we find set out in the White Paper great things can yet be done through the medium of the radio for the enriching of the culture and the entertainment of Wales.
I assure the Home Secretary, in particular, who bears a special responsibility for Welsh affairs, and the House generally, that if this devolutionary process, this de-centralisation, this giving of executive power to this new Broadcasting Council in Wales, leads, to a perpetuation of the genuine culture of my people, it will be of lasting value. I ask the House to believe me, as one who can speak about the whole of Wales—I have lived in 100 per cent. Welsh-speaking Wales, in 60 per cent. Welsh-speaking Wales, and I now live in a completely Anglicised part of Wales—that there is such a thing as a Welsh culture and that it is worth preserving. I heard last night programmes which were definite proof and evidence that that culture is not synthetic and is not unnatural. It springs up spontaneously from the people to whom I am proud to belong, and I hope that this new Charter will perpetuate that great tradition.
8.55 p.m.
Mr. Niall Macpherson: In the few minutes left to me, I wish to say a few words as the only Member for a Scottish constituency who has been called from this side of the House.

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I endorse the last part of the speech of the hon. Member for Abertillery (Rev. LI. Williams). I think it is common ground and was recognised fully by the Beveridge Committee, which commented adversely on the "limited scope" of the regional Advisory Councils and also drew attention to the "vigorously voiced demand for greater autonomy" both in Scotland and in Wales.
My own view is that it would have been a mistake to have substituted a monopoly either in Scotland or in Wales for the British monopoly as such. I should have liked to see some experiment made in the preservation of local Scottish traditions by setting up local stations. That was indeed advocated by the Beveridge Committee as one of the channels they desired to see left open. I cherish the hope that the possibility will still remain open in the long run.
In considering the general question of devolution, I agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. M. MacPherson) regarding the difficulty of carrying it out. There are three things to consider; first, the appointment; secondly, the function; and thirdly, the constitution best adapted to carry out the function.
On the subject of the appointment, the present situation is that there is virtual programme autonomy already in Scotland, and I take it there is also in Wales. The criticism surely must be simply that the autonomy is exercised through the regional controller, who is himself appointed by the B.B.C. I put this to my hon. Friend who is to reply. The Governors who are to be Chairmen of these national Councils are to be appointed by the same means as the other Governors are appointed, that is to say, by a panel, on which, in the case of Wales, there will be no Welshman and in the case of Scotland there may only be one Scotsman.
Regarding the appointment of the members of the Councils, the position is that the panel is apparently to be taken from the General Advisory Council of the B.B.C. and the same panel is to make the appointments for Scotland and Wales. That seems an exceedingly odd arrangement. I do not know whether the attention of my hon. Friend has been directed to the advice given by the Scottish
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Advisory Council, who suggested that it would be much better to have an ad hoc committee sitting under the Secretary of State for Scotland to make these appointments. I was also struck by the suggestion made by the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor) that, at any rate so far as Scotland was concerned, the Committee of ex-Secretaries of State should perform this task.
I am afraid there is little time left but I would say this with regard to the functions of the Councils. According to the White Paper, their function is to be executive so far as the programmes are concerned. So far as capital development and finance are concerned, it is to be advisory. The chairman alone is to be paid, the other members are to be unpaid. I should like to ask how often it is envisaged that the Council will meet. Is it to meet only three times a year, as has happened in the past, or how often will it meet?
It is wrong to consider that the Council will perform the same kind of tasks as those which, for example, a town council performs. If it is to have executive functions it must act in the nature of a board of directors rather than a committee of a town council choosing the caretaker for a building. If there are to be real executive functions, there will be a division of loyalty on the part of the regional controller. So far as programmes are concerned, his loyalty will be towards the chairman of the Council, and in regard to capital development it will be to the Director-General and the Board of Governors. The regional controller will be placed in a difficult situation, and so will the chairman and members of the Council.
I hope that the Government will look at this question again to see whether it is possible to take a step in the right direction by allowing somebody outside the B.B.C. orbit to appoint the Council. This will ensure that they are not put in a position similar to that of the chairman of a consultative committee in the fuel and power industry or the Advisory Council on Scottish Aviation. In an Adjournment Debate within the last fortnight this has been admitted to be an unsatisfactory set-up. I apologise for having taken two minutes more than I had intended and, though there is much

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more that I should like to say, I must now conclude.
9.2 p.m.
Mr. Ness Edwards: Having listened to almost every speaker in this debate, I have been struck by the toleration which has been shown, despite the deep differences of opinion. The subject has been approached sensibly and we have heard some exceedingly good speeches.
Three major points have emerged. One is the method of selecting Governors. The second is the question of the regional Councils. The third is the outstanding point which divides us perhaps more deeply than any other—the question of commercial television. It was surprising that everyone who spoke in favour of commercial television also objected to monopoly, as if commercial television were the only alternative to monopoly. I will deal with that matter later.
Before discussing these three major points, I wish to refer to a number of questions about which there is some small difference of opinion. There are other matters upon which there is general agreement, and I do not propose to refer to them. First, I wish to mention the Television Advisory Committee, which has not been discussed at all. I ask the Assistant Postmaster-General to let us know whether it is intended to re-animate this Committee, to give it proper powers and to have it fully constituted. It has been moribund for a long time while we have been talking about the new Charter.
Television development has now reached a stage when it is essential for the Government to be guided by an adequate, competent Television Advisory Committee. I hope that it will be representative and that it will cover all interests. The other point I wish to mention is the question of the Assistant Directors-General. It would be wrong to have two Directors-General. It would be like having two women in the same kitchen. It would be highly undesirable.
Mr. Hobson: And just as unsatisfactory.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I presume that it would be just as unsatisfactory; but I am attracted by the idea of Assistant Directors-General. I would hope that the
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Governors, when they come to consider this, would also consider the idea of having Assistant Directors-General for television, in order to give television a new status inside the B.B.C., a new authority and, perhaps, a new drive. It is difficult for those reared in sound, who have made such a magnificent job of sound broadcasting, not to regard television as an interloper, and when one thinks of that, it would perhaps be wise, if there are to be Assistant Directors-General, that one should be in charge of television, because there would be a considerable amount of scope and opportunity for vigorous development.
My next point is in connection with paragraph 23 of the White Paper. The Home Secretary and his colleagues have taken the same view as we took that the Advisory Councils as they now exist are not sufficiently representative, but ought to be widened and made more representative in character. The selection has been on too narrow a field, and, when I have looked at some of the advisory councils, it has seemed to me that everybody who was a crank was able to become a member, when what was really wanted was some good common sense, representing the listener, who should come first, and not the specialist, who is merely concerned about pushing his own narrow interest. We welcome the declaration which agrees with the recommendations of the Beveridge Committee that these Advisory Councils should be made much more representative.
I come now to the question of monopoly. The monopoly of the B.B.C. is a peculiar one. Let us see what it does. This monopoly does not produce only one programme. It sends out seven programmes in seven different directions, and, in that sense, there is complete variety. In addition, there are the Light Programme and the Third Programme. There is no cramping of opinion or of taste here. The whole field is covered, and covered by nine different programme directors. It is quite wrong to say that in this sense the B.B.C. restricts either taste or type in the programmes it sends out.
In the regions, as is well known, and especially by some hon. Gentlemen opposite, the regional controllers have almost complete autonomy over their

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home programmes, and in that sense we are being provided with seven varieties of programme.
Mr. Frederic Harris: All to the same recipe.
Mr. Ness Edwards: They are not all to the same recipe, because many of these regional programmes are quite different from the national programme. Indeed, there is a great deal of controversy as to which of these programmes is best and which are not so good. To that extent, this monopoly is providing what a monopoly does not generally do, and that is variety to meet all tastes over wide sections of the community.
Let me take the next point. After all, this is a public monopoly with public accountability. What it does is not done in secret, because it is answerable to this House, and that cannot be said for private monopoly. What private monopoly does is seen in the case of the glass industry, in which the radio industry is so much concerned and interested. The glass industry's control over the electronics industry is reflected in the prices which that industry has to pay today. That is a private monopoly, but it cannot be suggested that the B.B.C., a public monopoly, is not accountable either to Parliament or to the public in this country.
I was rather surprised at the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who stated his case fairly, when he came to consider the objections to monopolies in relation to the B.B.C. He made four points. I did not get his first point, but one of the others was that the B.B.C. were complacent. But he produced not one iota of evidence to show how the B.B.C. were complacent. He agreed that the B.B.C. have devolved authority to the seven regions. What he was really saying was that there is no competition within the B.B.C. Really, if that is his view, he has been badly briefed. Inside the B.B.C., and indeed between the regions, there is most intense competition as to the number of listeners they are able to get for their particular programmes.
Another point made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman was that inherently a monopoly does not allow the listener to have a choice. He did not relate that to the B.B.C. because most listeners in this country have the choice of three programmes, and most people
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with decent sets can get as many as seven programmes.
Mr. Fell: What about television?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I am talking about the B.B.C. in relation to sound, and, after all, the argument against the B.B.C. as a monopoly was with regard to its main department.
Then the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that where there was a monopoly the artistes were restricted. He did not produce a single piece of evidence to prove that any artiste in this country has been badly treated by the B.B.C. After all, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is a legal gentleman and in stating a case he usually submits the evidence for his convictions. He will not find a single case where the B.B.C. has blacklisted or victimised any artiste in this country.
This is very contrary to the praise given to the B.B.C. by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. His arguments against monopoly, which indirectly were arguments against the B.B.C., were in complete conflict with all the praise he gave to the B.B.C. and in complete conflict with what is said by the Government in the White Paper. That document talks about the excellent job done by the B.B.C.
At this point I should like to add my tribute to those paid to Sir William Haley. I came in contact with him when I was Postmaster-General and I found him to be one of the most brilliant men in the country. He carried on the traditions set by Lord Reith. We should not forget the excellent Governors we have had, who share the responsibility for the high reputation which the B.B.C has attained, not only in this country, but throughout the world.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that, in selecting the Governors, we should rob this House of the accountability of this monopoly to it. That is a strange doctrine. I thought that what the right hon. and learned Gentleman wanted was to have more effective control over these monopolies. What he seeks to do by this method of selecting the Governors is to rob this House of control over the Governors, and those two things seem to me to run in completely opposite directions.

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My right hon. Friend put the matter very clearly, but there is one point I should like to add. He cited the case where the present Opposition objected to the selection of certain Governors. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his hon. Friends transfer themselves for a change, as they may be transferred before long in fact, to this side of the House? Let them put themselves in the position of an Opposition when new Governors are being selected. Suppose the Labour Government of the day select Governors whom they do not like when they are sitting on this side of the House. What remedy will they have? The present Prime Minister would then be the Leader of the Opposition and hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite would be extremely embarrassed in raising the matter in the House when their own leader had agreed to the appointments.
Suppose the Governors do something the House does not like. How are we to raise the matter in the House? Who is Ministerially responsible for the actions of the Governors? All that this system does is to clothe the Governors with the powers of private monopoly and rob them of the quality of public accountability.
This is entirely wrong. We shall vote against it if this is forced to a Division. Does the Home Secretary realise that in that event we should also have to vote against the Licence and the Charter and that that trouble is in front of him? I speak subject to correction, but I believe that this would be the first time the House had divided on the question of the Charter and Licence of the B.B.C. That would be bad for the B.B.C. and bad for the future of broadcasting in this country.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt?
Mr. Ness Edwards: No, I am very much behind time. I wanted to refer to the Broadcasting Councils, but I must now come to the other major issue which divides us. That is the question of commercial television. I was tempted to read what the "Manchester Guardian" leader had to say. I hope the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing) will not leave, because I am going to quote something that he said.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: The right hon. Gentleman will not give way.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I wanted to leave time for the Assistant Postmaster-General to reply to the debate. I must cover some points and I must be allowed to decide myself what I shall say. I was tempted to read what the "Manchester Guardian" had to say today in its leader about the nature of this White Paper. Really I am surprised at the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary accepting responsibility for this. He has always been fair to the House and he has always been clear.
What is he promising to his hon. Friends behind him, those who have been pushing him forward into the indecency of this commercial television? The Government propose that there shall be some element of competition when capital resources allow. That is jam tomorrow and none today. Then the White Paper says that Parliament should be consulted before the licensing of the first commercial station. Paragraph 9 of the White Paper states that a controlling body is to be set up to exercise general oversight in case of abuse.
In all the bursts about freedom that we have had from back benchers opposite, not one of them has suggested that there should be unrestricted, free competition. They trust the advertisers so much that the only freedom they will give them is freedom with censorship on top of it.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Like the films and the theatre.
Mr. Ness Edwards: The hon. Member's argument has completely destroyed that since apparently there is to be no propaganda for religion and none for politics. The only propaganda which will be allowed, apparently, because it will be propaganda on television, will be for beer, pools, pills and patent medicines. That is the sort of thing the right hon. and learned Gentleman is providing for the future. He is preparing a paradise for the cheapjack.
Let us go one step further. In paragraph 10 it is said:
"… the radio industry must be given as soon as possible the technical information necessary to enable them to design and produce adaptors."
Paragraph 11 says that the B.B.C. must have first claim to complete television coverage and to introduce V.H.F. Hon. Members opposite know that for the next

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five years the electronics industry will have all it can do to meet the needs of the defence programme in this country.
Captain Robert Ryder Captain Robert Ryder (Merton and Morden) rose——
Mr. Ness Edwards: I am loath to give way because if I do so I shall be robbing the Assistant Postmaster-General of his time. We have both agreed to take half an hour, and I am disposed to have my half an hour.
As hon. Members know, and as I am sure the Assistant Postmaster-General himself will say, it is not possible to see for the next three or four years any possibility of the B.B.C. having completed television coverage with the new five low-power stations or having started V.H.F. in this country. So that for at least four years we shall not get this sponsored commercial television.
But hon. Members should have read the debate in the other place. I listened to quite a lot of it. What struck me was that the Lord Chancellor apparently had an entirely different view of the Government's intentions from that of the Postmaster-General. It appears that there is a split in the Cabinet. It appears that there is the difficulty of maintaining a sense of political decency and pleasing the big boys behind.
But one does not need to go to another place to ascertain what the Government are thinking. One need only read the speech of the Parliamentary private secretary to the Minister of Labour, who is interested and has played a distinguished part in the radio industry, and who I believe is still a director of one of the the firms. This is what he said:
"Next year television sets which can be switched to different channels will be on sale to the public. One channel will receive the B.B.C., the second the future alternative programmes. Owners of existing monopoly sets will be able to buy adaptors for about £5. In the last three years the B.B.C. has been allowed £5,500,000 for capital construction. One-tenth of this might be permitted to competitors in the next three. I cannot subscribe to the theory that the B.B.C. can go on developing its system while all others are banned."
The hon. Gentleman's speech does not coincide in its prophecy with what we have been told today by the right hon. and learned Gentleman who opened the debate. I do not know whether his brief
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was prepared in the Ministry of Labour, by the Conservative Central Office, or whether it was prepared by Pye's or Cossor's, but it seems to me that the industry have been led to believe that they will get something which this White Paper denies them.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Surely it is desirable that we should place on the market sets which are up to date and ready to receive these programmes when they arrive. These sets are already designed, for they are exported all over the world, because other nations do not have the same monopoly as we have here. There is under-employment in the radio industry, so there is certainly capacity for these sets to be built. Finally, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman this question? Does his party intend to repeal this legislation if they get back into power?—because that appears to be the whole trend of his argument.
Mr. Ness Edwards: When we are returned to power our position will be completely reserved. This Government do not determine what the next Government are going to do.
The hon. Gentleman should remember that the Lord Chancellor did not take the narrow view which hon. Gentlemen here take about sound and television. The Lord Chancellor, speaking in the other place, said that he was in favour of sponsored programmes on the radio. He was not proposing to keep inviolate the B.B.C. constitution. I am wondering whether he was echoing what Lord Woolton said in 1951, before he accepted responsibility. Lord Woolton then said:
"I have come to the conclusion that the B.B.C. should be retained in full possession of their present powers, except that they should not have, for any long period, the exclusive right of broadcasting in this country."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 25th July, 1951; Vol. 172, c. 1222.]
[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I do not know what hon. Members are "hear-hearing" about. The noble Lord was talking about the medium waveband. [HON. MEMBERS: "He was not."] We have 11 wavelengths allotted to us. Which wavelength is to be taken away from which region to provide commercial broadcasting? Is it to be the Third Programme? Is it to be the Light Programme? Which station is to be handed

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over to the commercial people, to the big traders and the big advertisers?—not the little man, about whom the Conservative Party have been so much concerned.
I should like to commend to the House the speeches which were made by Lord Halifax, Lord Samuel and Lord Waverley in another place. I would equally commend the speech made by the hon. Member for Southgate (Mr. Baxter), who described the effects which television can have on the minds of the people. Television which is devised and slanted in order to sell goods is television that can have an evil effect on people. I know of one programme in America—I cannot quote the name—where, right at the end, the fellow who was advertising cigars said: "Is your heart pitter-pattering? You are smoking the wrong cigars. "That is the sort of thing to which I am referring. Everybody becomes introspective in consequence of that sort of programme.
I do not know how many people read the "Evening Standard" last evening. It contained an interview with Jack Solomons. It is amazing how many people are introspective about their health, and television can be one of the greatest causes of introspection in relation to health when people are selling pills and patent medicine.
I would say to the Government that we are divided deeply on these two issues. Are the Government determined to divide the nation on these two new issues which they have thrown into the arena? They have no mandate for them. There is no public demand for them. There appears to be only what might be termed some private log-rolling. I ask the Government not to be doctrinaire on the question of monopoly. This is a monopoly which has done a good job. In my view, if the Government persist in going on with these proposals, they are casting aspersions on the B.B.C. They are doing damage to our reputation and are making the B.B.C. a plaything of politics. They are doing irreparable harm.
I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to say that the Government are prepared to consider all that has been said in the debate. Let us see whether we can
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march together about the B.B.C., rather than be divided. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may take an irresponsible view, but this is a very important charge in our hands. We are responsible for it, and I hope we shall exercise our responsibility with due regard to the public service and without regard to private profit.
9.31 p.m.
The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): With one thing which the right hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) said, I am in complete agreement—and that concerns the sincerity which has characterised all speeches from both sides of the House today. May I thank the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) for the temperate way in which he opened the debate from that side of the House? It is a debate which has shown the House of Commons at its best, in the sense that although we are divided politically on two great issues, nevertheless we have tried to express our views without accusing each other of bad motives.
The right hon. Member for Caerphilly asked me about the Television Advisory Committee. It is true that has not met for a year, and the reason largely is that until policy had been decided the Committee could not meet. We intend it to meet, we intend to enlarge its membership and we intend that its scope shall also include very high frequency. Both he and other hon. Gentlemen raised a point about the provision made in the White Paper for two Directors-General. As the White Paper says, there is only provision, and it will be left to the Governors to appoint a second Director-General if they, and they alone, think fit. The point which was at the back of our minds was that in years to come the B.B.C. themselves might like a second Director-General, because sound and television might be absolutely divided.
As most of us expected that it would, the debate has concentrated on the proposals for the appointment of the Governors and on the question of sponsored television. Those are the two points which appear in the Opposition Amendment. First of all, on the appointment of the Governors. I want to try to explain to the House what has led the Government to take this action. They have thought about it very carefully, and it is

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only because they hold very sincerely that this change is desirable that they have made the change at all. We thought the idea would appeal to the party opposite for one reason——
Mr. H. Morrison: Why could not we have been asked about these two big things? Why should the Government assume that we should favour something without asking us? We could have done it privately?
Mr. Gammans: I do not think it is necessarily usual for a party in power——
Mr. Morrison: The hon. Gentleman said he thought we should like it.
Mr. Gammans: We had imagined so, and I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman why. The objective is one thing and one thing only—to take the B.B.C. out of party politics; not to take it out of Parliamentary control, but to take it out of party politics. As my right hon. and learned Friend said in opening the debate, there has never been any question of doubting the impartiality of the Governors in the past, and this proposal was in no sense a criticism of them.
Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas (The Wrekin) rose——
Mr. Gammans: I cannot give way.
We live in a time when the lights of freedom are being dimmed all over the world, and when totalitarian governments are spreading from one end of the world to the other. We should be foolish in the extreme if we took the view that, because the B.B.C. has never been accused of partiality in the past, there is no danger of its falling into undesirable hands in the future. The most foolish thing a Democracy could say today is the phrase:" It couldn't happen here. "That phrase could easily be the epitaph on the tombstone of Democracy.
There is another reason which prompted the Government to put forward this idea. It is not only that the B.B.C. must be taken out of political hands, but that it must also appear to be so taken. I understand from the Governors of the B.B.C. that from time to time they are accused of political partiality, but that on the whole the charges made by one party balance the charges made by another. If this new method is adopted, no suspicion of partiality will remain.
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The Opposition have made great play with the point that if they agreed with with this proposal Parliament would be losing its control over the B.B.C. The proposal is deliberately intended to mean that, so far as the appointment of Governors is concerned, Parliament shall lose its control. To suggest that by so doing Parliament is losing control over the B.B.C. generally is, in my submission, absolute nonsense. After all, the House still controls the amount of money that the B.B.C. shall spend. As my right hon. and learned Friend has said, the affairs of the B.B.C. can be brought up in this House on many occasions.
The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South made what I thought was superficially a good point. He said: "This is no real safeguard against the misuse of the B.B.C.'s powers. If ever dictatorship came to this country, what would be the value of the provisions in the White Paper?" It is not against that sort of danger that these provisions are meant to operate. I would agree that if ever we came to the stage of absolute dictatorship in this country nothing that appeared in the constitution would be any safeguard to anybody. Anybody who takes that view has misread the history of Communism during the past 10 years.
If ever a dictatorship comes to this country it will not be by military coup d'état. It will be by the gradual infiltration of Communist practices by people who do not claim to be Communists but pretend that they are something else. Czechoslovakia was never conquered by the Red Army entering Prague. If the B.B.C. ever gets into the wrong hands it will not be because someone turns up in Langham Place with a tommy gun. It will be because insidious pressure will have been put on the B.B.C. over a period of time.
It is disturbing that the Opposition will not support this safeguard. It means either that they do not see that there is a danger or that, if they do see there is a danger, it does not worry them. I should have thought there was another reason why the Opposition would have favoured this proposal, which is that it would be an interesting experiment for other State Corporations. A large percentage of industry is now under State ownership, and the vast majority will remain there. Whatever may have been our misgivings when

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these industries were nationalised, it is now up to all of us to make them work. We know that it is difficult enough in all conscience to run a nationalised industry, but if there is one thing which would do more than anything to establish confidence in the nationalised industries, it would be to remove in every sense their control from the political arena.
Mr. Gordon Walker Mr. Gordon Walker (Smethwick) rose——
Mr. Gammans: No, I will not give way.
We want to get away from the idea that anyone was appointed because he was a Conservative or a Socialist. For this reason we might have expected the support of the Opposition on this question.
I come now to the other issue, that of sponsoring. As my right hon. and learned Friend said in opening, this proposal is in the nature of a compromise between two opposite points of view very sincerely and passionately held but, apparently, quite irreconcilable. I want to assure the House that this is not a compromise prompted by either weakness or irresolution. It is a genuine attempt to meet the views held on both sides. Behind this compromise are very distinct and vital principles, and the first is—and here we differ entirely from right hon. Gentlemen opposite—that this Government do not believe in monopolies. It would be impossible for this Government to take a stand against monopolies and allow the B.B.C. monopoly to exist.
The second principle is that the B.B.C., with a high reputation established over many years, shall not be interfered with. It remains the principle instrument of television and the sole instrument of sound broadcasting. It retains its present wavelengths. It alone will get revenue from the State, and there is no interference with its present plans of development both in sound and television. What is more, it is to have a priority in the fulfilment of those plans before it is expected to meet any competition at all.
I should like to try to state what are the two opposing schools of thought as revealed by this debate. Many of my hon. Friends take the view that in breaking the B.B.C. monopoly the Government are not going fast enough or
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far enough. They see no reason why the competition should not exist in sound broadcasting. They point out that a very high frequency station can be set up at a small fraction of the cost of a television station, and even with the present restriction on capital development, the very high frequency station could be working in a short space of time.
Some of my hon. Friends—and I include my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leicester, South-East (Captain Waterhouse) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford (Mr. Profumo) in this—have got the impression that they doubt whether the Government are in earnest in their declaration that competition in television will be permitted. I know some of them take the view that the Government have deliberately chosen the more expensive medium, that is television, as opposed to sound broadcasting, because it means putting off for a longer time the thing that they want.
My answer to that is that, so far as sound broadcasting is concerned, it can very well be argued that the monopoly of the B.B.C. has long since been broken. Anyone in this country with a reasonably good set can tune in to a variety of stations abroad. We have heard a lot about Radio Luxembourg. I do not know how many people listen to it, but it is claimed that every night they have an average listening public of 5,000,000 people. What this programme is, in effect, is a British commercial station in regard to which we have the worst of all possible worlds. We have no means of influencing the programmes, and the Government derives no direct revenue from it. The reason why we have chosen television is that in television, on the other hand, there is only one station, and that is the B.B.C.
Several of my hon. Friends have raised the point as to whether the Government are in earnest, and I want to make this quite clear. The Government are in earnest, not only over breaking the B.B.C. monopoly, but also in permitting sponsored television. They have decided that the B.B.C. shall be allowed to have priority over the completion of the programmes that was held up because of the capital cuts. But that does not mean that, when adequate resources of money and materials are available, competitive television must wait until the B.B.C.

329
extension is complete in all respects. It does not mean that the B.B.C. will have to put the last coat of varnish on any building that they may put up before competitive television can be started. In fact, it is the hope of the Government that it will be possible before long that this experiment can actually be started and that the controlling body should be set up. So much for what I believe to be the analysis of opinion as expressed on this side of the House.
What about the other side? It is a very long time since I remember a case which has been presented with more exaggeration, not only in the House but outside it. To read some of the Press reports, one would have imagined that the B.B.C. was to be closed down altogether. There has been all this wild talk about taste being debased because people would be compelled to look at or to listen to programmes of a much lower standard than they had before. Never once in all the discussions has there been any suggestion that the B.B.C. should be curtailed, either in its money, its wavelengths, or its plans.
I see in "The Times" this morning the following statement:
"It was clear from the White Paper that pressure from an active group of Conservative back-benchers to upset the B.B.C. had been resisted."
I say to hon. Gentlemen opposite who wish to be assured, that there never has been the slightest suggestion of interfering in the B.B.C. in any respect whatsoever, except the breaking of their monopoly. If these experiments in sponsored television turn out to be as unpopular as hon. Gentlemen opposite suggest, all that they have to do is to summon the resolute energy to twiddle the knob.
Sir Waldron Smithers Sir Waldron Smithers (Orpington) rose——
Hon. Members: Give way.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that we can conduct the remaining stages of the debate with a little less noise.
Mr. Gammans: I am very interested to see why the Opposition defended their case. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South denied that the B.B.C. was a monopoly at all. The right hon. Member, before he makes that sort of
330
statement, had better get together with his right hon. Friend the Member for Smeth-wick (Mr. Gordon Walker), who in the debate on 19th July, 1951, said:
"… there should be a monopoly of broadcasting in this country under public control…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th July, 1951; Vol. 490, c. 1435.]
That is exactly what the B.B.C. is today. Lord Reith has always claimed that the B.B.C. is a monopoly, and of course, it is a monopoly in every sense of the word. If the Opposition are going to say that the British people are to be compelled to accept a monopoly for their own good, then I say that no greater insult can be offered to our race. At election time we entrust the vote to people over the age of 21, They have full power to make most drastic decisions and they can read what newspapers they like. There is no-censorship of films. What justification is there on ethical grounds for saying that in' the limited field of radio and television the State should decide what they should see and what they should listen to?
What worries me, and what I think will worry many people in the country is, if the Opposition insist that there should be a monopoly of entertainment, what guarantee have we that they are going to stop there? Every argument used today to defend the B.B.C. monopoly could be used to justify a monopoly of the Press.
Another argument which has been put forward is that the B.B.C. have not done too badly, so why interfere with it—Let well alone. This is a curious doctrine to preach. If in our national life we had been actuated by the idea that what we have now is quite good enough, why should any one want anything different, there would not have been very much progress of the human race. If I may take a political analogy, I would point out that if we had adopted that principle 50 years ago there would never have been a Labour Party. After all, there were two perfectly good parties in this country, why should we have another?
So far as broadcasting is concerned, the attitude we take is that because one particular system has served us well in the past, that is no reason why in changing conditions we should insist on that system. I was much impressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser), who was a Governor of the B.B.C, who said today

331
that he was in favour of monopoly to start with but now, in changing circumstances, he favoured competition. We have heard a lot about advertising interests and the effect they are supposed to have. I wonder who they are?
Mr. G. Lindgren: Turn round.
Mr. Gammans: Are they the same people who advertise in the "Daily Herald"? If so, they are a fairly mixed bag. Looking at the "Daily Herald" this morning, we find first, an advertisement on the front page from Lloyds Bank, and in the middle page an advertisement for Persil. On the third page five gentlemen who wanted to lend money without security advertised, and Sherman's Pools advertised on the back page. On page 2 there was an exhortation to the readers of the "Daily Herald" to keep up their nerve power. Do these people influence the policy of the "Daily Herald," as has been suggested sponsored programmes would be influenced?
What about the "Radio Times," read by more people than any other periodical in this country? I do not know whether hon. Members are aware that the total from advertisements for one issue of the "Radio Times" is £25,000, which is more than £1 million a year. In this week's issue, on page 2 there is an advertisement for Lux soap. Do they put pressure on the B.B.C.?
We have the argument constantly reiterated, but never explained, that competitive television must necessarily be bad and vulgar. All this talk about beer and Beethoven is good tub-thumping alliteration, but not good sense. Is there an objection that a Beethoven Symphony would be interrupted every few minutes by advertisements for beer, or anything else? Any company doing that would be out of business in 12 months——
Mr. Hobson: Not in the States.
Mr. Gammans: The hon. Member says "Not in the States." What do Members opposite think the controlling body is for, if not to prevent that very debasement of taste to which we object in the case of the United States?
The truth is that the B.B.C. protagonists have hopelessly over-played their hand. They have rushed to the rescue of the
332
B.B.C. as if it were some puling infant in swaddling clothes, instead of a monster Corporation well organised and highly financed. If the B.B.C. is afraid to meet the competition of commercial radio, handicapped as commercial television will be, with all the safeguards that appear in this White Paper, all I can say is that there is something drastically wrong with the B.B.C., and the sooner it is shown up the better.
This debate has revealed not only a difference of opinion between the two sides of the House as to the way in which radio and television should be run. What is far more ominous is that it is shown how wide is the gulf which separates us in political philosophy. The Opposition have openly come out in favour of a monopoly of what the British public shall be allowed to hear and see. I think that is only a step towards establishing a monopoly of what they shall read or even what they shall say. They believe in the principle of the closed shop of the mind, and they do not trust the British people.
There was, 50 years ago, a famous speech made by a great bishop in this country at a time when drunkenness was one of the greatest social evils. He said: "I would sooner England were free than compulsorily sober." We have come a very long way along the road of the coercion of men's minds since the days when that statement was approved by the two great parties.
The other thing which is ominous is the refusal of the Opposition to remove the B.B.C. from party politics. We are prepared to shelter the B.B.C. for ever from the danger of political intrigue. The Socialists are not prepared to keep party politics out of the B.B.C., and I hope that the country will draw the right deduction.
We contend that in this White Paper we are standing for two vital principles, the principle of breaking a monopoly of the mind and the principle of keeping the B.B.C. out of party politics. It is because we are convinced that the majority of the people support these two principles that we lay this White Paper before the House tonight.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 276.

Division No. 155.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Aitken, W. T.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Erroll, F. J.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Alport, C. J. M.

Fell, A.

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Finlay, Graeme

Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.)

Amory, Heathooat (Tiverton)

Fisher, Nigel

Low, A. R. W.

Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Arbuthnot, John

Fletcher-Cooke, C

Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

Fort, R.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

Foster, John

McAdden, S. J.

Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Bucks, Wycombe)

Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)

Baker, P. A. D.

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

Mackeson, Brig, H. R.

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Gage, C. H.

McKibbin, A. J.

Baldwin, A. E.

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Banks, Col. C.

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

Maclean, Fitzroy

Barber, A. P. L.

Gammans, L. D.

MacLeod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Barlow, Sir John

Garner-Evans, E. H.

MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

Baxter, A. B.

George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Beach, Maj. Hicks

Glyn, Sir Ralph

Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)

Beamish, Maj. Tufton

Godber, J. B.

Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Gough, C. F. H.

Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

Gower, H. R.

Markham, Major S. F.

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Graham, Sir Fergus

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Bennett, William (Woodside)

Gridley, Sir Arnold

Marples, A. E.

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Grimond, J.

Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

Birch, Nigel

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Marshall, Sidney (Sutton)

Bishop, F. P.

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Maudling, R.

Black, C. W.

Hare, Hon. J. H.

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

Medlicott, Brig. F.

Bossom, A. C.

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Mellor, Sir John

Bowen, E. R.

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Molson, A. H. E.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Boyle, Sir Edward

Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Braine, B. R.

Harvie-Watt, Sir George

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N. W.)

Hay, John

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Nicholls, Harmar

Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

Brooman-White, R. C.

Higgs, J. M. C.

Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

Browne, Jack (Govan)

Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

Nield, Basil (Chester)

Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

Bullard, D, G.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Nugent, G. R. H.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Hirst, Geoffrey

Nutting, Anthony

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Oakshott, H. D.

Burden, F. F. A.

Mollis, M. C.

Odey, G. W.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Antrim, N.)

Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

Holt, A. F.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

Carson, Hon. E.

Hope, Lord John

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Cary, Sir Robert

Hopkinson, Henry

Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

Channon, H.

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Horobin, I. M.

Osborne, C.

Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

Partridge, E.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.

Howard, Greville (St. Ives)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Cole, Norman

Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Colegate, W. A.

Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

Peyton, J. W. W.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

Hurd, A. R.

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

Pitman, I. J.

Cranborne, Viscount

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Powell, J. Enoch

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

Crouch, R. F.

Jenkins, R. C. D. (Dulwich)

Profumo, J. D.

Crowder, John E. (Finchley)

Jennings, R.

Raikes, H. V.

Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Rayner, Brig. R.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

Redmayne, M.

Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

Jones, A. (Hall Green)

Remnant, Hon. P.

Davidson, Viscountess

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Ronton, D. L. M.

De la Bere, R.

Kaberry, D.

Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

Deedes, W. F.

Keeling, Sir Edward

Robertson, Sir David

Digby, S. Wingfield

Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

Robinson, Roland (Blaokpoel, S.)

Doods-Parker, A. D.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Robson-Brown, W.

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Lambton, Viscount

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Donner, P. W.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Roper, Sir Harold

Doughty. C. J. A.

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Ropner, Col, Sir Leonard

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Russell, R. S.

Drayson, G. B.

Leather, E. H. C.

Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

Drewe, G.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond)

Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)

Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)

Duthie, W. S.

Lindsay, Martin

Scott, R. Donald

Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M

Linstead, H. N.

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Llewellyn, D. T.

Shepherd, William

334

335

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

Studholme, H. G.

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Summers, G. S.

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone)

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Sutcliffe, H.

Walker-Smith, D. C.

Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

Smyth, Brig. J. G (Norwood)

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

Snadden, W. McN.

Teeling, W.

Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

Soames, Capt. C.

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Watkinson, H. A.

Spearman, A. C. M.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

Speir, R. M.

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

Wellwood, W.

Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

White, Baker (Canterbury)

Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C N.

Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Tilney, John

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Stevens, G. P.

Touche, G. C.

Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

Turner, H. F. L.

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

Turton, R. H.

Wills, G.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Storey, S.

Vane, W. M. F.

Wood, Hon. R.

Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Vesper, D. F.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. Butcher and Mr. Heath.

NOES

Acland, Sir Richard

Delargy, H. J.

Janner, B.

Adams, Richard

Dodds, N. N.

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Albu, A. H.

Donnelly, D. L.

Jeger, George (Goole)

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Jeger, Dr Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Bromwich)

Johnson, Jones (Rugby)

Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

Edelman, M.

Jones, David (Hartlepool)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Edwards, John (Brighouse)

Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S)

Awbery, S. S.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Ayles, W. H.

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Bacon, Miss Alice

Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

Keenan, W.

Baird, J.

Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

Kenyon, C.

Balfour, A.

Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Ewart, R.

King, Dr. H. M.

Bartley, P.

Fernyhough, E.

Kinley, J.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Fienburgh, W.

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Bence, C. R.

Finch, H. J.

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Benn, Wedgwood

Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Benson, G.

Follick, M.

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Beswick, F.

Foot, M. M.

Lewis, Arthur

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Forman, J. C.

Lindgren, G. S.

Bing, G. H. C.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Blackburn, F.

Freeman, John (Watford)

Logan, D. G.

Blenkinsop, A.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

MacColl, J. E.

Blyton, W. R.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

McGhes, H. G.

Boardman, H.

Gibson, C. W.

McGovern, J.

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

Glanville, James

McInnes, J.

Bowden, H. W.

Gooch, E. G.

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Bowles, F. G.

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

McLeavy, F.

Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

McNeil, Rl. Hon. H.

Brockway, A. F.

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

Grey, C. F.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

Manuel, A. C.

Burke, W. A.

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Burton, Miss F. E.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Mayhew, C. P.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

Hall, John (Gateshead, W.)

Mellish, R. J.

Callaghan, L. J.

Hamilton, W. W.

Messer, F.

Carmichael, J.

Hannan, W.

Mikardo, Ian

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Hardy, E. A.

Mitchison, G. R.

Champion, A. J.

Hargreaves, A.

Monslow, W.

Chapman, W. D.

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

Moody, A. S.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Hastings, S.

Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

Clunie, J.

Hayman, F. H.

Morley, R.

Cocks, F. S.

Healey, Dennis (Leeds, S.E.)

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Coldrick, W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Rowley Regis)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Lewisham, S.)

Collick, P. H.

Harbison, Miss M.

Mort, D. L.

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Moyle, A.

Cove, W. G.

Hobson, C. R.

Mulley, F. W.

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Holman, P.

Murray, J. D.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Houghton, Douglas

Nally, W.

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Hoy, J. H.

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Daines, P.

Hubbard, T. F.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

Oldfield, W. H.

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Oliver, G. H.

Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Orbach, M.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Oswald, T.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Paget, R. T.

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Irving, W J. (Wood Green)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Deer, G.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Pannell, Charles

336

337

Pargiter, G. A

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Wallace, H. W

Parker, J.

Simmons, C J. (Brierley Hill)

Watkins, T. E.

Paton, J.

Slater, J.

Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

Peart, T. F.

Smith, Ellis (Stake, S.)

Weitzman, D.

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Poole, C. C.

Snow, J. W.

Wells, William (Walsall)

Popplewell, E.

Sorensen, R. W.

West, D. G.

Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

Soskice, Rt- Hon. Sir Frank

Wheatley, Rt. Hon John

Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

Sparks, J. A.

White, Mrs Eirene (E. Flint)

Proctor, W. T.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

Pryde, D. J.

Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Whiteley, Rt Hon W.

Rankin, John

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

Wigg, George

Reeves, J.

Strauss, Rt. Hon, George (Vauxhall)

Wilcock, Group Capt. C A. B.

Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

Stross, Dr. Barnett

Wilkins, W. A.

Reid, William (Camlachie)

Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)

Rhodes, H.

Swingler, S. T.

Willey, Octavius (Cleveland)

Richards, R.

Sylvester, G. O.

Williams, David (Neath)

Rubens, Rt. Hon. A.

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Thomas, David (Aberdare)

Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Ross, William

Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Royle, C.

Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

Schofield, S. (Barnsley)

Thorneyoroft, Harry (Clayton)

Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Thurtle, Ernest

Wyatt, W. L.

Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

Timmons, J.

Yates, V. F.

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Tomney, F.

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

Short, E. W.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Shurmer, P. L. E.

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

Viant, S. P.

Mr. Pearson and Mr. Holmes.

Main question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 269.

Division No. 156.]

AYES

[10.11 p.m.

Aitken, W. T.

Carson, Hon E.

Gage, C. H.

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Cary, Sir Robert

Gabraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

Alport, C. J. M.

Channon, H.

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Gammans, L. D.

Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.

George, Rt. Hon. Maj G. Lloyd

Arbuthnot, John

Cole, Norman

Godber, J. B.

Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

Colegate, W. A.

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Gough, C. F. H.

Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

Cooper, Son. Ldr. Albert

Gower, H. R.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Bucks, Wycombe)

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Gridley, Sir Arnold

Baker, P. A. D.

Cranborne, Viscount

Grimond, J.

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Grimston, 'Hon. John (St. Albans)

Baldwin, A. E.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Banks, Col. C.

Crouch, R. F.

Hare, Hon. J H.

Barber, A. P. L.

Crowder, John E. (Finchley)

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

Barlow, Sir John

Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Baxter, A. B.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Beach, Maj. Hicks

Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

Beamish, Maj. Tufton

Davidson, Viscountess

Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

De la Bère, R.

Hay, John

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Deedes, W. F.

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

Digby, S. Wingfield

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Higgs, J. M. C.

Bennett, William (Woodside)

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Donner, P. W.

Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

Birch, Nigel

Doughty, C. J. A.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Bishop, F. P.

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

Hirst, Geoffrey

Black, C. W.

Drayson, G. B.

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Drewe, G.

Hollis, M. C.

Bossom, A. C.

Dugdale, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

Bowen, E. R.

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

Holt, A. F.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Duthie, W. S.

Hope, Lord John

Boyle, Sir Edward

Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M.

Hopkinson, Henry

Braine, B. R.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E

Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Erroll, F. J

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

Fell, A.

Howard, Greville (St. Ives)

Brooman-While, R. C.

Finlay, Graeme

Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

Browne, Jack (Govan)

Fisher, Nigel

Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P G. T.

Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J.

Bullard, D. G.

Fletcher-Cocke, C

Hurd, A. R.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Fort, R.

Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Foster, John

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Burden, F. F. A.

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Hyde, Lt -Col H. M.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

Hylton-Foster, H B. H.

Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

Jenkins, R. C D. (Dulwich)

Jennings, R.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Soames, Capt. C.

Jones, A. (Hall Green)

Nicholls, Harmar

Spearman, A. C. M.

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

Speir, R. M.

Kaberry, D.

Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

Keeling, Sir Edward

Nield, Basil (Chester)

Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Lambert, Hon. G.

Nugent, G. R. H.

Stevens, G. P.

Lambton, Viscount

Nutting, Anthony

Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Oakshott, H. D.

Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Odey, G. W.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Antrim, N.)

Storey, S.

Leather, E. H. C.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)

Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

Studholme, H. G.

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare)

Summers, G. S.

Lindsay, Martin

Osborne, C.

Sutcliffe, H.

Linstead, H. N.

Partridge, E.

Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

Llewellyn, D. T.

Peaks, Rt. Hon. O.

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Teeling, W.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

Peyton, J. W. W.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.)

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Thompson. Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

Low, A. R. W.

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Pitman, I. J.

Thornton-Kernsley, Col. C. N.

Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

Powell, J. Enoch

Tilney, John

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Touche, G. C.

McAdden, S. J.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

Turner, H. F. L.

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Profumo, J. D.

Turton, R. H.

Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)

Raikes, H. V.

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Vane, W. M. F.

McKibbin, A. J.

Redmayne, M.

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K

MoKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Remnant, Hon. P.

Vosper, D. F.

Maclean, Fitzroy

Renton, D. L. M.

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

MacLeod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone)

MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

Robertson, Sir David

Walker-Smith, D. C.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Ward, Hon George (Worcester)

Macpherson, Maj Niall (Dumfries)

Robson-Brown, W.

Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

Roper, Sir Harold

Watkinson, H. A.

Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

Markham, Major S. F.

Russell, R. S.

Wellwood, W.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

White, Baker (Canterbury)

Marples, A. E.

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Williams, Rt. Hon Charles (Torquay)

Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

Marshall, Sidney (Sutton)

Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Maudling, R.

Scott, R. Donald

Wills, G.

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr S. L. C

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Medlicott, Brig. F

Shepherd, William

Wood, Hon. R.

Mellor, Sir John

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W)

Molson, A, H. E.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Mr. Butcher and Mr. Heath.

NOES

Acland, Sir Richard

Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Adams, Richard

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Deer, G.

Albu, A. H.

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Delargy, H. J.

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Dodds, N. N.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Burke, W. A.

Donnelly, D. L

Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

Burton, Miss F. E.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W Bromwich)

Awbery, S. S.

Callaghan, L. J.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Bacon, Miss Alice

Carmichael, J.

Edelman, M.

Baird, J.

Castle, Mrs. B. A

Edwards, John (Brighouse)

Balfour, A.

Champion, A. J.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Chapman, W. D.

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Bartley, P.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

Clunie, J.

Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

Bence, C. R.

Cocks, F. S

Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

Benn, Wedgwood

Coldrick, W.

Ewart, R.

Benson, G.

Collick, P. H.

Fernyhough, E.

Beswick, F.

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Fienburgh, W.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A (Ebbw Vale)

Cove, W. G.

Finch, H. J.

Bing, G. H. C

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

Blackburn, F.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Follick, M.

Blenkinsop, A.

Cullen, Mrs A.

Foot, M. M.

Blyton, W. R.

Daines, P.

Forman, J. C.

Boardman. H.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Freeman, John (Watford)

Bowden, H. W.

Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.)

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Bowles, F. G.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon H. T. N

Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Gibson, C. W.

Brockway, A. F.

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Glanville, James

340

341

Gooch, E G.

McLeavy, F.

Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Slater, J.

Grey, C. F.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon James (Llanelly)

Mann, Mrs Jean

Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

Manuel, A. C.

Snow, J. W.

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Marquand, Rt. Hon H. A.

Sorensen, R. W.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Mayhew, C. P

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Hall, John (Gateshead, W.)

Mellish, R. J.

Sparks, J A.

Hamilton, W. W.

Mikardo, Ian

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E)

Hannan, W.

Mitchison, G. R.

Strachey, Rt. Hon J

Hardy, E. A

Monslow, W.

Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

Hargreaves, A.

Moody, A. S.

Stross, Dr. Barnett

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

Summerskill, Rt. Hon E.

Hastings, S.

Morley, R.

Swingier, S. T.

Hayman, F. H.

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Sylvester, G. O.

Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

Morrison, Rt. Hon H. (Lewisham, S)

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

Mort, D. L.

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Herbison, Miss M.

Moyle, A

Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

Hewitson, Capt. M

Mulley, F W.

Thomas, David (Aberdare)

Hobson, C. R.

Murray, J D.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Holman, P.

Nally, W.

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W)

Houghton, Douglas

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

Hoy, J. H.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Hubbard, T. F.

Oliver, G. H.

Thurtle, Ernest

Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

Orbach, M.

Timmons, J.

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Oswald, T.

Tomney, F.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Paget, R. T.

Turner-Samuels, M

Hynd, H (Accrington)

Paling, Rt. Hon. W (Dearne Valley)

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Viant, S. P.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Pannell, Charles

Wallace, H W

Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

Pargiter, G. A.

Watkins, T E.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Parker, J.

Webb, Rt Hon. M (Bradford, C.)

Janner, B.

Paton, J.

Weitzman, D.

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T

Peart, T. F

Wells, William (Walsall)

Jeger, George (Goole)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

West, D. G

Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S)

Poole, C. C.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Popplewell, E.

While, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

Jones, David (Hartlepool)

Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.

Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Proctor, W. T

Wigg, George

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Pryde, D. J.

Wilcock, Group Capt C. A. B.

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Rankin, John

Wilkins, W. A.

Keenan, W.

Reeves, J.

Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)

Kenyon, C.

Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

Willey, Octavius (Cleveland)

Key, Rt. Hon. C W

Reid, William (Camlachie)

Williams, David (Neath)

King, Dr. H. M

Rhodes, H.

Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

Kinley, J.

Richards, R.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Robens, Rt. Hon A.

Williams, Rt. Hon Thomas (Don V'll'y)

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N)

Wilson, Rt Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Lewis, Arthur

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

Lindgren, G. S.

Ross, William

Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Royle, C.

Wyatt, W. L.

Logan, D. G

Schofield, S. (Barnsley)

Yates, V. F.

MacColl, J. E.

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Younger, Rt. Hon K.

McGhee, H. G

Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

McGovern, J

Shinwell, Rt. Hon E.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

McInnes, J.

Short, E. W.

Mr. Pearson and Mr. Holmes.

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Shurmer, P. L. E.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House approves the proposals of Her Majesty's Government as set out in the Memorandum on the Report of the Broadcasting Committee, 1949. (Command Paper No. 8550.)

RAILWAY SLEEPERS (DUTY)
10.20 p.m.
The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. H. R. Mackeson): I beg to move,
That the Import Duties (General Ad Valorem Duty Reduction) Order, 1952, (S.I., 1952, No. 996), dated 20th May, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22nd May, be approved.
Before I begin to explain this Order, perhaps I might be allowed to tell the House why an affirmative Resolution is necessary in this case. This Order reduces the duty on any un-processed softwood sleepers and sleeper blocks from the sum of about £7 to the sum of 8s. per standard. So long as softwood sleepers cost more than £4 a standard, 8s. a standard will be less than the present ad valorem duty of 10 per cent. If, however, the price per standard ever fell to less than £4 per standard, that would represent an increase in the existing rate of duty, and therefore it is considered that an affirmative Resolution is desirable.
The House will no doubt not be very optimistic of the prospect of a fall from £4. The present price of softwood sleepers is about £70 per standard and has not been less than £4 since 1900.
In January, 1951, as hon. Members will know, the Government allowed private trading in softwood timbers to re-commence. During the war, and until 1951, there was no anomaly as the State was doing the purchasing, but under the present arrangements, which were introduced in 1951, softwood sleepers are charged at a rate which works out at about £7 a standard whereas ordinary softwood is charged at the rate of 8s. a standard.
The reason for this is that under the Import Duties Act, 1932, a large range of goods became liable to a 10 per cent. ad valorem duty. Since that time there have, under various trade agreements, been reductions of duty on softwood, apart from sleepers, which have reduced the duty on softwoods now to roughly the equivalent of one half per cent. ad valorem.
The House will note from the Schedule to the Order that only wood and timber of coniferous species in the round, hewn or square sawn, but not further prepared
344
or manufactured, except boxboards, are included. This means that it is simply a question of softwood cut to a particular size. It does not mean that sleepers which have been processed, creosoted or shaped in any way are included.
The present position is that exactly the same types of wood are, owing to the anomaly which has arisen, being charged at the very different rates of £7 and 8s. per standard. The Order does not apply to hardwoods nor does it apply to hardwood sleepers. The duty on these remains at 10 per cent. This is a common-sense Order, which has arisen out of the decision made in January, 1951.
Resolved:
That the Import Duties (General Ad Valorem Duty Reduction) Order, 1952 (S.I. 1952, No. 996), dated 20th May, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22nd May, be approved.

TEA AND COFFEE PRICES
10.27 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Willey: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Tea (Prices) (Amendment) Order, 1952 (S.I., 1952, No. 978), dated 15th May, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 15th May, be annulled.
It would probably assist the House, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if we were to take at the same time the following Motion:
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Coffee (Amendment) Order, 1952 (S.I., 1952, No. 860), dated 29th April, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 30th April, be annulled.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): Certainly, if the House agrees.
Mr. Willey: Both these Orders affect the price of beverages. Whether one drinks coffee or tea, it is to cost more. We object to these price increases. I will deal first with coffee, which, as I understand it, has nothing to do with the question of subsidy. What it has something to do with is Government bulk purchase. What the Minister of Food has done has been to sign new bulk purchase agreements providing for a higher price, because all the coffee bulk purchase agreements expire this year. It is for the

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Parliamentary Secretary, therefore, to explain how it is that the Minister has signed these new bulk purchase contracts which lead to the increased prices of coffee, ranging between 4d. and 8d. per lb.
There are several questions that I want to put to the hon. Gentleman. I believe that one of the purposes of the bulk purchase of coffee—because it is not an essential foodstuff—is that we ensure to the Commonwealth and the sterling area dollar purchases of coffee. Is that still the purpose behind these bulk purchase arrangements? Secondly, I understood—the Parliamentary Secretary, of course, is far better informed than I about this—that we had reached the peak of coffee prices. I know that the hon. Gentleman can point to previous increases in price greater than the present increases, but I ask him to explain how it has come about that we have not, apparently, yet reached the peak of coffee prices.
My third question relates to an element in the price increases. How much of the price increase is accounted for by increased costs of roasting, packing and distribution? I ask that because, broadly speaking, the profit position of the companies concerned seems to be fairly satisfactory. The burden is on the Parliamentary Secretary to make out a case for the increased costs of processing and distribution.
I invite the Parliamentary Secretary—and this may save an intervention from the other side of the House and expedite our proceedings—to explain to hon. Members opposite how it comes about at all that a Government which denounced bulk purchase are, in fact, now on their own account bulk purchasing at a higher price.
Finally on coffee, I should like the hon. Gentleman to explain to those hon. Gentlemen who supported him during the General Election, which is not so very far away, how it comes about that he is asking the House to approve an increase in prices, because during the Election the whole burden of the campaign of hon. Members opposite was that all that was necessary to decrease prices was to have a Tory Government.
In the case of tea, let me make it clear that I have a very great respect for the tea trade and the way in which they
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have carried out not only rationing but also price control. They have done a very good job in carrying out a complicated operation, which many people at one time thought could not be successfully carried out by the trade.
I want to criticise not the trade but the Government. This price increase is not consequent on world prices, but is consequent solely on the Budget. It was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who gave the Minister of Food no option. A Minister from the Treasury ought to be here now, because the Chancellor did not leave it to the Minister of Food to announce this food increase. He made it himself. He said that the price of tea would be increased this summer, as it is now being increased, by the elimination of the subsidy.
The odd thing about this substantial increase of l0d. a pound is that it is being made at the very time when there is every sign that there will be a fall in the world price, and nothing could be more economically unsound and unwise than to have this very great increase of price just at the moment when world prices are likely to decrease. It could not happen at a more inappropriate time, because we know from experience that if there is an increase in the maximum price then it will be a more difficult matter to bring down the price than if the current price had been allowed to run a little longer.
On the general position of the food subsidy ceiling. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with this point. When we debated the question of an increase in the price of bread, he pointed out that the Chancellor had indicated that there would not be a reduction this year of £210 million, but when we finished the financial year food subsidies would be running at the rate of £250 million a year. If that is so I ask why is it necessary now to impose this price increase? If the Chancellor has allowed the Minister this wider discretion to determine price increases, why do it now? What is the impelling necessity to make this increase now?
I can only make a suggestion about it. It seems to me that the Chancellor is hoping to decrease the food subsidies by £210 million or thereabouts this year although he is not binding himself to do it. That is why he is putting pressure on

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the Minister of Food. So we have got to this position—we have an increase borne by the housewives amounting to £48 million as a result of the increased prices of bread and flour, and the Minister of National Insurance is to give the families of this country—it has not yet begun—£23 million by way of increased family allowances to compensate them.
Then over and above that increase, as a result of this Order there is a sum of about £13 million to add to the £48 million. Without taking into account the increased meat prices which we are going to have next week-end, we have the housewives bearing by way of increased prices for these two items alone a burden of £61 million, against prospective increased family allowances for the whole year of £23 million.
I can only deduce from this that the Chancellor is putting very strong pressure on the Minister of Food to do all he can to see that by the end of the year the subsidy has run at no more than £250 million for the current financial year. Indeed, it is an interesting thing that when we debated the question of bread the Parliamentary Secretary said:
"The problem before us was how best to achieve this saving of approximately £210million in the food subsidies."—[OFFICIALREPORT, 1st May, 1952; Vol. 499, c. 1832.]
I think it is quite obvious that the Chancellor is putting pressure on the Minister and that in this financial year we will find that the Government intend to make a saving of about £210 million at the expense of the housewives.
The Government are increasing the price of tea this month and increasing the ration next month. Why should they do that in these stages? It is because the Minister wants to know, first of all, what effect this very substantial price increase has on the prevent level of consumption.
In other words, he wants to find out how many old age pensioners and how many families with a large number of children cannot even afford to buy two ounces of tea. He can only do so by imposing this price increase while we have a two-ounce ration. When he has ascertained that he can put up the ration, although everyone in the tea trade knows that he could have done that two or three months ago.
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Having put up the ration he finds out what effect the increased price has on the increased ration. He now has accurate information. He knows that so many families will take less than two ounces and so many will take less than 2½ ounces, and he can say that his operation of increasing the price has been so successful in depressing demand that he can deration without having adequate supplies to meet the demand that would have come if the price of tea were such that the poor people could afford to buy it.
In my own constituency we are to have a Tea Week, with a tea queen, at a time when we are rationed at two or two and a half ounces. The tea trade believes there is going to have to be a lot of pressure and publicity to maintain demand at this new price, and it is quite clear from all that they have said that they believe this will depress the effective demand.
This is indeed a very substantial price increase. As the Explanatory Note to the Order says:
"This Order … increases the maximum price of all price-controlled tea by tenpence a pound."
There is nothing here about the 3s. 8d. a lb. tea about which the Minister talked. This Order increases the maximum price of all present price-controlled tea by l0d. The Minister said there is to be a new cheap tea at 3s. 8d. a lb. That will be a new poor tea. When later I asked him a Question, the Parliamentary Secretary said there will be tea at 3s. 8d., 3s. l0d. and 4s. a lb. so that the tea at 3s. 8d. a lb. has already become one of a range running to 4s. a lb.
But the point is that this is admittedly going to be a very poor tea. We know that in the tea market it is very difficult to sell this poor tea; in fact, it is lagging on the market. We also know that through rationing, which has continued for so many years, the people of this country are not going to go through the expensive business of buying poor tea, because there is no more expensive way of buying tea than to buy poor tea.
From discussions I have had from people in the trade that is an offer to blind people to this steep price increase. The Minister will quote our price increases. I will give them to save him the trouble. In six-and-a-half years we increased the price of tea twice; first by fourpence in

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June, 1947, when the food subsidies were running at £324 million a year and world prices were against us; and we increased it by fourpence in May, 1951. The food subsidies were then running at £410 million and world prices were against us.
Now, after eight months of the Tories, the price is to be increased by l0d. when the food subsidies will be running at £250 million, and world prices are falling. I appreciate the difficulties of the Parliamentary Secretary. He will tell the House that he has to do what the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells him.
If food subsidies are to be slashed, there must be these enormous price increases. But why select tea, unless the Government are viciously attacking the poor people? The Chancellor himself announced this. He was not going to leave this to the Minister of Food. He said first that he was going to increase the price of bread. Nothing will affect the families of this country more than that. Nothing will affect the poor people more harshly.
I do not know what the Radio Doctor said about tea. He probably said that it has no nutritive value; but tea was the first thing to be taken to bomb-struck areas during the blitz. It was a morale raiser. If one goes into a working-class home, the first thing one is offered is a cut of tea. So having singled out the poor and said, first, that they are to pay more for their bread, it is now decided that they shall pay more for their tea. I think that this is a harsh, vindictive attack upon our people. At a time when all of us are trying to get some stability into the country, to take action like this is provocative and upsetting everything. I hope that even now the Parliamentary Secretary may say that, having reviewed the matter, he will not impose this increase.
10.44 p.m.
Mr. George Jeger: I beg to second the Motion.
My hon. Friend has put forward his case ably and eloquently. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw this Order. My hon. Friend referred to the fact that a cup of tea is a great morale raiser. During the war it was greatly used in shelters, and when bomb incidents had occurred. Nowadays, after shopping, the first thing the housewife
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needs to revive her drooping spirits is a cup of tea. After coping with the increase in prices and in the cost of living, she flies to a cup of tea.
The housewife was promised that the cost of living would stop rising if a Conservative Government were returned. While sipping that cup of tea she tries to relate the promises of the Conservatives when in Opposition to their practices when in power, and she recalls the posters on the hoardings, and the sympathetic words she heard when being wooed by the Parliamentary Secretary, among others, for her vote during the Election. She remembers those words in the Conservative Election manifesto:
"Our housewives have gone on bravely trying to feed families on two ounces of this or tenpennyworth of that"
Now she sees two ounces of cheese come down to one ounce, and tea going up to two and a half ounces, while the l0d. worth of meat is now 1s. 2d., and is shortly going up to 1s. 7d.
Sir William Darling: On a point of order. There is nothing about meat in the Order.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): The hon. Member must confine himself to the Order.
Mr. Jeger: I am basing my remarks on the necessity for retaining tea at its present relatively low price because of its value in helping to cope with the difficulties which this Government have placed on the already over-burdened housewife. On a number of occasions during Questions recently, I have sought to elicit from the Minister of Food why the tea ration could not be raised to three ounces and I have been told that there was not sufficient tea. I was fobbed off with stories of how much tea it was necessary to have coming into the country to raise the ration to three ounces.
But the whole of the tea trade is emphatic in its assurances that tea could either be raised to three ounces or taken off ration altogether. The stocks already in the country or on the high seas would allow that to be done and the Minister has been described in the tea trade journals and other journals as being over cautious and very mean in his attitude to the housewife.

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This increase of l0d. in the price at a time when there is sufficient tea to raise the ration to a level which would satisfy the needs of the community or take it off ration altogether, which is practically the same thing, is a mean thing to do. Not only is it mean, but it does not square with what I have always understood to be conventional economics.
The argument in the sphere of elementary economics was that when you had sufficient of a commodity in the market to satisfy demand, that was the time when people would buy, more particularly if rationing was being removed. If people are buying more, more trade is being done and there is a greater turnover. If there is a greater turnover, even on a small margin of profit, obviously the total profit is larger. Therefore, with an increased ration of tea, or tea coming off ration at the present price level there would be increased trade and increased profit. Is the present profit so low that many millions must be given to the tea trade by raising the price by 10d.? I would like the hon. Gentleman to answer that.
Perhaps he will get some information from the Stock Exchange Year Book to which I referred today to find out how profits of various tea companies were running. I found that one large tea concern in this country which before the war consistently paid a dividend of 10 per cent. has been going on to 15 per cent. and 15 per cent. plus a 7½ per cent. bonus, 22½ per cent. and last year 22½ per cent. plus a 7½ per cent. bonus. Another firm in the habit of paying 5 per cent. to 7½ per cent. dividend, last year paid a 12½ per cent. dividend. I do not think the tea trade is doing badly on the present tea ration and present prices.
Mr. Peter Remnant: Perhaps, as he has been making so many researches, the hon. Member will continue them and get the prices at London auctions and compare them with the costs today, when he will find they are pence per pound below cost of production.
Mr. Jeger: I accept that, but I also accept the figure given in the "Economist" that immediately after the announcement made by the Minister that the tea ration was being raised, tea prices hardened from 2d. to 4d. per lb. They
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will go up one week and down the next. The reason is that there is speculation in tea and prices will fluctuate in accordance with stocks they have in hand, their gamble on what the future market will be, and whether they can hold out a little longer. We can only go, not by the fluctuations in the market, but by the published profits and paid-out dividends of the firms concerned. One can only go to the published authorities for this information, and not to the day-to-day markets, to see the fluctuations in price.
Mr. Remnant: I shall look forward in six months or a year's time to seeing the hon. Member rise again to treat the current figures so openly.
Mr. Jeger: If the hon. Gentleman will persuade the Minister to withdraw this price increase and bring it forward again in six months' or a year's time—if he is still in office—I should be willing to postpone my argument until that date and bring it into line with the published results at that time. But, in the meantime, we have to deal with the situation as we find it, and with the profits as we find them, and the price increase which we are being threatened in this Order.
I think that the tea trade is not in need of the financial assistance offered on this occasion by a price increase of l0d. per lb. It is obvious that the increase will go in part to swelling the profits of the tea trading firms at the expense of the poorer people of this country who, in the main, are the biggest tea drinkers. They cannot afford the various alternatives. Incidentally, one alternative, the drinking of coffee which has become more of a habit in this country, owing to the shortage of tea, will be more expensive, because of the increase in the price of coffee in the other Order which we are taking in conjunction with this Order.
I hope that the Minister will take note of the example of the sugar packets which have propaganda slogans and information printed on them. I think that after this increase in the price of tea one of the things which might be printed on the tea packets is a quotation from the broadcast by Lord Woolton on 13th October, 1951. He said:
"There is a story that the Conservatives would cut the food subsidies. That is not true."
That would look very well on the side of a tea packet for which the housewife

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has to pay the increased price arising from this Order. It would help to draw the attention of the housewife to the facts of life in accordance with the political doctrine of the party opposite.
Surely, instead of raising the price in this way it would have been much better to have made an arrangement in accordance with the tradition of the Ministry, consulting the representatives of the trade and deciding, in a gentlemanly and amicable way, that there should be no controlled maximum price whatever; that in a steady market where there is an adequate amount of tea to satisfy the demand the free wind of competition should be allowed to blow unhindered, with a gentlemanly agreement by the trade that there should be some low-price tea of good quality which the Minister has told us on previous occasions was being guaranteed, even under this Order.
The rest could be left to fair competition, about which the Conservatives talk so much, allowing the tea trade to bring their own economic system to bear on the different prices of tea. That would have meant that one section of the trade would be competing with another, without the necessity of price control and the full l0d. increase which every firm will adopt in accordance with the time-honoured way of doing these things.
I remember hearing the Parliamentary Secretary saying, some time ago, "Our diet is dull and dreary and we know it." He talked about the increases in prices and reduction in the quantity of our rations. He told the housewives, and I happened to be listening, "Science is satisfied, so how dare you grumble?" The Parliamentary Secretary has caused a lot of grumbles in the course of his career, but none so many as he has caused during the last few months. This Order is the culmination of a long series. I warn the Parliamentary Secretary that while, during the last few years he may have talked himself into office, he is rapidly acting himself out of it, and he would be well advised to withdraw this Order to restore a little of his popularity.
10.55 p.m.
Mr. John Arbuthnot: As one who is connected with the tea industry, I should like to say that the two speeches to which we have listened have been so
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full of inaccuracies that some of them should be corrected immediately. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey) said that there would be an increase in tea prices of l0d. per lb., indicating that the increase would operate throughout the whole field. He only mentioned, in passing, the fact that the trade has guaranteed to the Minister that there will be available a 3s. 8d. tea for everybody who wants it.
Mr. Alfred Robens: Sweepings.
Mr. Arbuthnot: Hon. Gentlemen opposite may talk about sweepings, but let me remind them that a considerable quantity of the cheaper teas on the market recently have been bought by the Co-op.
It was suggested that the object was to find out how many families would be unable to afford to buy tea at the new prices. The retail price lists which have been published indicate that whereas the old prices ranged from 3s. 2d. to 5s., the new ones range from 3s. 8d. to 5s. 4d. It should be borne in mind that the 3s. 8d. tea will assist the poorer family.
Another point was that we should have put up the ration two or three months ago. That does not come well from the hon. Member for Sunderland, North He knows that if his own party when in power had taken the action now being taken by this Government, the ration could have been raised two years ago.
Mr. A. G. Bottomley: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not want to mislead the House. What has happened in the last 12 months is that Indonesia has begun to provide tea in great quantities and that Pakistan is producing more, so that more tea is available.
Mr. Arbuthnot: It is true that Indonesia is providing more, but had the party opposite taken the action of freeing the London tea auctions earlier, the increase in production would have taken place sooner.
The hon. Gentleman also talked about derationing without having adequate supplies. That is one of the important points that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food has made. It is essential to ensure that we have got adequate supplies. The stock position at present is

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143 million lbs., excluding anything that may be held in the Ministry of Food stocks which are not known to the public. By September, which is the low point in the tea cycle, we shall probably have about 100 million lbs. in stock. Therefore, it is untrue to say that derationing is taking place without us having adequate supplies.
The only other point I wish to make is that if the Government had failed to take the steps they have taken many of the tea gardens in Cachar, Darjeeling and Sythet, which are producing at a loss, would have closed and the workers would have been out of jobs and without means of subsistence. Surely it is not the intention of hon. Gentlemen opposite to grind in the dust the faces of the labour forces in India and Ceylon in this way.
11.0 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): Whatever disagreement there may be about the Order, let it be said, at the outset, that there is no disagreement on the virtues of tea nor on the important part it plays in the everyday lives of the vast majority of the people of this country.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey) referred to the general subsidy situation, of which this is an expression, and raised once more the action which is being taken to achieve the new subsidy level at the beginning of the new financial year. Let me make abundantly clear that it is proposed to achieve the new level for the next financial year and to approach that level during the course of the present year.
The hon. Gentleman related this to the progress which is being made in the increases in social benefits. He did not, perhaps, complete the relationship, otherwise he would have referred, not only to the National Assistance increase on 16th June, amounting to some £25 million, but also to the increases in widows' pensions, sickness benefit, unemployment benefit, and industrial injuries benefit, which are planned for 31st July, to retirement pensions planned for 1st October, and to the family allowances planned for 1st September, amounting altogether to an
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annual increase in the social benefits of some £83½ million. I mention this so that the picture may be complete.
I believe it was in the hon. Gentleman's mind to examine it at the present point, for he referred, quite fairly, to the one increase—that for National Assistance scales—which comes into operation on 16th June. I would, for the sake of greater completeness, remind him that if one takes the position as it is now, in working out the plans envisaged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the increases in flour, bread, tea, and meat amount to a reduction of subsidy of £115 million.
On the other side of the balance sheet, taking, again, the point of time we have reached now, and taking into account not only the increase of National Assistance benefits, but the value of income tax concessions, we have £253 million. Even if one takes what is being returned to income-tax payers this week—some £20 million—that alone is in excess of the £18 million which the removal of the tea subsidy has involved by way of increased prices.
The hon. Member for Sunderland, North went on, in effect, to ask why the steps, first, of removal of subsidy, second, of increase of the ration, and, third, of complete de-rationing and de-control, should be taken in that order. If I may paraphrase his words, or perhaps modify or moderate them, his argument was that the step of removing the subsidy was deliberately calculated to lower the level of consumption so as to make possible the subsequent stage of increase of ration and the final stage of derationing and decontrol. I say quite bluntly that this exercise is being planned on the assumption that the level of consumption will remain, though I am not going to prophesy that there will be no effect upon the level of consumption as a result of the price increase involved in the removal of the subsidy.
If I may put it in other words, we know that 40 million lb. of tea a month will be needed for the 2½ oz. ration; and we know that there will be imports of such a size as will permit the 2½ oz. ration. There is no element in the calculations which are being made which follows from an assumption, at which the hon. Member hinted, of a lower consumption.
Mr. F. Beswick: Is the calculation based upon the same individual consumption? In other words, although the total consumption may remain the same, is the hon. Gentleman assuming that the individual will consume the same quantity?
Dr. Hill: Yes. The calculation is made from our knowledge of what is consumed on the smaller ration and by allowing for a 25 per cent. increase in consumption as the ration goes up from two to 2½ oz. It may well be that the pattern of consumption will change. I am not seeking to deny that possibility. What I am seeking to do is to assure the hon. Member for Sunderland, North that no assumption of what may happen to the pattern of consumption has crept into the calculations and preparations which are being made for the second phase of the exercise, the raising of the ration to the level of 2½ oz.
The hon. Member went on to refer to the l0d. increase and asked—I think it is a fair summary of the question he put—"Why 10d.?" He will know that this system of controlled price is peculiar to the tea industry. He knows that there are some 3,000 or 4,000 different blends of tea on the market. He knows that at the outbreak of war, rather than seeking to name prices for each blend or each group of blends, it was decided to freeze the blend pattern and, as increases in prices became necessary, to permit increases which would operate over the whole of the field.
That means that when one comes to allow a single increase of price to operate over the whole field, of necessity, as it is a maximum, it must be a maximum which represents the greatest level of increase, even if that high level of increase is in respect of but one blend of tea.
Assurance has been obtained that there will be a sound quality tea available in sufficient quantities at 3s. 8d. a lb. to meet the public need. I agree that it is not enough to have the poorest quality tea. In fact, it is not economy to have low quality teas. So, bearing in mind the position from which we start—the lowering of the subsidy level, the decision to eliminate the subsidy on tea, the competitive conditions obtaining in the trade,
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and the stock position—it is thought that this first step will speedily be followed on 13th July by an increase in the ration to 2½ ounces, and then be followed, we hope before the end of the year, by the sweeping away of rationing and control from the whole of this field.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Goole (Mr. G. Jeger) referred to the urgent need for competitive influences to get to work. I assure him that it is believed that the competitive instincts will be getting to work in the next phase in preparation for the full phase of competition in an industry which is essentially a competitive one. That is what is happening here.
The hon. Gentleman was generous enough so to refer to the character of the trade as to imply that an understanding could be safely and properly entered into with them and assurances have been received from the trade that while in the case of some of the more expensive teas the permitted increase will be 10d., in respect of the cheaper teas the increase will be substantially less than 10d., and in the middle range of blends the increase will be of the order of 8d.
Mr. F. Willey: I want to put the Parliamentary Secretary right on this. This is the elimination of the subsidy. It is an operation eliminating the subsidy. Would he explain how he is going to eliminate the subsidy if it is just fortuitous what price increases are made in particular blends of tea? Unless he has the material with him on the saving estimated over a year then it is just a guess.
Dr. Hill: If the hon. Gentleman will be patient I will explain. By making a single increase of l0d. in the maximum price it means that as that increase will obtain only in relation to the more expensive teas, in the rest of the field there will be smaller increases. There will also be competition in what is a highly competitive trade and this will influence prices within the field, other than prices at the very highest level.
Mr. Willey: The unit subsidy as announced by the Minister of Food for 1951–52 was 8½d. Since that time procurement costs have gone up so obviously the unit subsidy on a pound of tea must be more than 8½d.
Dr. Hill: The unit of subsidy on a pound of tea, at the time of removal of subsidy, was running at the rate of 8d. a lb. It would amount at the higher ration level to some £17 million for the year. Eightpence is the unit subsidy. If I may illustrate the point by inquiries that have been made as to the intentions of the trade in carrying out the understanding into which we have entered, out of 53 sample blends 15 will rise by 10d., two by 6d., four by 4d. or less, and the rest, amounting to 32, by 8d.
I want to add one word on a point which has not been raised in this debate but has been mentioned outside, that some people have found difficulty in the course of the last few days in getting their tea ration. Tea is flowing into the grocers' shops today just as it has flowed in the last few years, and nothing has been done administratively as part of this exercise to interfere with that flow. Where a grocer has been borrowing from the future, then he is caught on one foot at this moment. I want to make it clear that if a citizen is not able to get his tea ration from his usual retailer he should go elsewhere, for there is no binding registration in tea. If he has difficulties in the next few days he should go to the local food office for advice.
I will not weary the House by speaking further of the stock position. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North knows the position perfectly well, and I am sure the House is obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mr. Arbuthnot) for his well-informed contribution to the debate. Whatever else may be said of the selection of tea as part of the subsidy reduction, let it be said that the removal of the subsidy is what we
hope will be the first step in an exercise which before the end of the year will result in the removal of controls and the rationing of tea, which all will welcome.
I should like, briefly, to say a word about coffee. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunderland, North said that certain contracts would run out in the middle of the year and some at the end of the year. They are for the most part contracts within the Commonwealth. The hon. Member referred to the fact that bulk purchase was involved in the contract. It is. I am not going into the details of the contracts except to say that we are getting at the moment 50 per cent. of our coffee from Commonwealth sources, mostly East Africa and the Uganda. Our inability for currency reasons to obtain coffee from Brazil, however, means that we shall be getting two-thirds of our coffee from Commonwealth sources.
The hon. Member referred to the proportion which increased costs played in the increases. The increased price of coffee accounts for 3½d. of the 5d. per lb. and the l½d. is related to the increased costs of carriage, financing, distribution, and so on. The coffee price increase results from an increase in the price that we have to pay and we feel it is proper that we should pay, for coffee mostly from the Commonwealth.
As to tea, we believe that this is the first step in an exercise which will take tea away from rationing, and whatever may be said on the other side of the House that will be widely welcomed as a step towards freedom.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 163; Noes, 184.

Division No. 157.]

AYES

[11.21 p.m.

Adams, Richard

Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Deer, G.

Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Delargy, H. J.

Awbery, S. S.

Burke, W. A.

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

Bacon, Miss Alice

Burton, Miss F. E.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Baird, J.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

Edwards, John (Brighouse)

Balfour, A.

Callaghan, L. J.

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

Bence, C. R.

Champion, A. J.

Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

Benn, Wedgwood

Chapman, W. D.

Fernyhough, E.

Beswick, F.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Finch, H. J.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Cocks, F. S.

Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

Bing, G. H. C.

Coldrick, W.

Foot, M. M.

Blackburn, F.

Collick, P. H.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Blenkinsop, A.

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Freeman, John (Watford)

Bottomley, Rt. Hon A. G.

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Bowden, H. W.

Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Gibson, C. W.

Brockway, A. F.

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Grey, C. F.

Griffiths, Rt Hon. James (Llanelly)

McGovern, J.

Ross, William

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

McInnes, J.

Schofield, S. (Barnsley)

Hamilton, W. W.

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Hannan, W.

McLeavy, F.

Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

Hargreaves, A.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Hayman, F. H.

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Snow, J. W.

Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

Mellish, R. J.

Sorensen, R. W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

Mikardo, Ian

Sparks, J. A.

Herbison, Miss M

Mitchison, G. R.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Hobson, C. R.

Monslow, W.

Stross, Dr. Barnett

Holman, P.

Moody, A. S.

Sylvester, G. O.

Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Hoy, J. H.

Morley, R.

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Hubbard, T. F.

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

Moyle, A.

Thomas, David (Aberdare)

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Murray, J. D.

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Nally, W.

Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Wallace, H. W.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

Watkins, T. E.

Janner, B.

Orbach, M.

Weitzman, D.

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Oswald, T.

Wells, William (Walsall)

Jeger, George (Goole)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

Pargiter, G. A.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Parker, J.

Wilkins, W. A.

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Pearson, A.

Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Peart, T. F.

Willey, Octavius (Cleveland)

Keenan, W.

Poole, C. C.

Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

Kenyon, C.

Popplewell, E.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

King, Dr. H. M.

Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Proctor, W. T.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Rhodes, H.

Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

Lewis, Arthur

Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

Wyatt, W. L.

Logan, D. G.

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Yates, V. F.

MacColl, J. E.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

McGhee, H. G.

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. George Wigg and Mr. Royle.

NOES

Aitken, W. T.

Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

Hurd, A. R.

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

De la Bère, Sir Rupert

Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

Alport, C. J. M.

Deedes, W. F.

Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Digby, S. Wingfield

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Arbuthnot, John

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

Assheton, Rt, Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

Donner, P. W.

Kaberry, D.

Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

Keeling, Sir Edward

Baldwin, A. E.

Drayson, G. B.

Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

Banks, Col. C.

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Barber, Anthony

Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M.

Lambton, Viscount

Barlow, Sir John

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Baxter, A. B.

Erroll, F. J.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Beach, Maj. Hicks

Fell, A.

Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)

Beamish, Maj. Tufton

Finlay, Graeme

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Fisher, Nigel

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

Fletcher-Cooke, C.

Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Fort, R.

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Birch, Nigel

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Bishop, F. P.

Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

McKibbin, A. J.

Bossom, A. C.

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Maclean, Fitzroy

Bowen, E. R.

Godber, J. B.

Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Gough, C. F. H.

MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Gower, H. R

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Braine, B. R.

Grimond, J.

Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Mark ham, Major S. F.

Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Burden, F. F. A.

Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

Medlicott, Brig. F.

Butcher, H. W.

Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

Mellor, Sir John

Cary, Sir Robert

Heath, Edward

Molson, A. H. E.

Channon, H.

Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Cole, Norman

Hirst, Geoffrey

Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

Colegate, W. A.

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Nield, Basil (Chester)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Hollis, M C.

Nugent, G. R. H.

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Holt, A. F.

Oakshott, H. D.

Cranborne, Viscount

Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

Odey, G. W.

Crookshank, Capt, Rt. Hon, H. F. C.

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Howard, Greville (St. Ives)

Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

Crouch, R. F.

Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

Osborne, C.

Crowder, Petre (Ruislip-Northwood)

Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

Partridge, E.

362

363

Pickcthorn, K. W. M.

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Turner, H. F. L.

Pitman, I. J.

Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

Turton, R. H.

Powell, J. Enoch

Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

Vane, W. M. F.

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Raikes, H. V.

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Vosper, D. F.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Redmayne, M.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

Remnant, Hon. P.

Summers, G. S.

Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

Renton, D. L. M.

Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Wellwood, W.

Robertson, Sir David

Teeling, W.

While, Baker (Canterbury)

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Wills, G.

Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Scott, R. Donald

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

Wood, Hon. R.

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Tilney, John

Shepherd, William

Touche, Sir Gordon

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Mr. Drewe and Mr. Studholme.

Question put, and agreed to.

COLONIAL LEGISLATURES (PROCEDURAL ADVISER)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Butcher.]
11.28 p.m.
Mr. Ian Winterbottom: At the annual general meeting of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association speakers paid warm tribute to the work of the staff of this House in assisting the Legislatures of all the Crown Colonies who are moving towards self-government, and whose new Parliaments are feeling their way towards the type of procedure which we know and value in this House.
A particular tribute was paid to the work of the Clerk-Assistant, Mr. Fellowes, who, during this period of development, has done immensely hard work all over the Commonwealth. In the past few months he has prepared the Standing Orders of the Legislatures of Jamaica, Ceylon, Trinidad, and Nigeria. He has also visited the Legislatures of Ceylon, the Sudan, the Gold Coast, and Nigeria. Everywhere, his services have proved of the very greatest value. Indeed, while in Nigeria, I understand that he actually took the Chair at the request of the Governor for a period. As a result of the work he did in that Colony he received a vote of thanks which was accorded from the House of Representatives of Nigeria thanking him for the services he had rendered to it during its first Session.
The immense value of the advice which has been given by the staff of this House cannot be over-estimated. It is easy to read up the broad Rules of Procedure, but the difference between an apprentice and a craftsman lies in the
364
small tricks of the trade. It is these small tricks of the trade that the Table Office has been able to hand on to these other Legislatures. I believe, for instance, that in Ceylon it was the custom of Mr. Speaker to give his Rulings when seated. This, of course, left any disputing hon. Members standing and in command of the field and Mr. Speaker was not able to overawe them in a seated position as he does here when standing. This very small tip enabled the Speaker of the House in Ceylon to control his flock as sternly and efficiently as is the case here.
These visits and the work which has been performed by the Clerk-Assistant and other members of the Table Office here have not been performed without strain. There is strain, of course, on the individual who has to make these long journeys and work under very difficult conditions, but there is also the additional work imposed on his colleagues in his absence. There is also a very real risk of an epidemic striking the Table Office during the absence of one of its members, which, I presume, would cause very considerable difficulties in the day-to-day work of this House.
It was for this reason that at the annual general meeting of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) moved that an extra Clerk at the Table should be appointed to assist his colleagues in this extraordinarily valuable work which they have been carrying out with the normal complement with which in the past they have been running the work of this House alone. His proposal won general support throughout the meeting. A former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) spoke in support of his Motion and you, Mr. Speaker,

365
in your capacity of Chairman of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, agreed to approach your alter ego. You said that you hoped you would find him in a good temper; and I understand that you were fortunate in finding him in a pliant mood.
I had the fortune to win the Ballot for this Adjournment debate and, as a result, I decided to raise this question in the hope that an early decision could be reached because if the work continues, I am certain that the Table Office will continue to carry it out, but something should be done to lighten the load which is on them. For this reason I support the hon. Member for Banbury in urging that an additional Clerk at the Table should be appointed as soon as possible and that this new member of the Table Office should be a specialist helping the new Legislatures to find their way into and through the mazes of our procedure.
I feel that the appointment should be a fairly senior one, because only a senior appointment would have the prestige and authority which would give his advice weight when he visited these Legislatures. I understand that the decision to appoint an additional Clerk at the Table lies with a body which has the rather complex name of Commissioners for Regulating the Offices of the House of Commons. You, Mr. Speaker, I believe are its Chairman; the various Secretaries of State are some of its members and, in addition, there are the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General. I would urge the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs to approach his Secretary of State and ask him to request the Chairman of the Commissioners who, I am sure, he will find not unsympathetic, to consider the proposal I am putting forward.
There is no doubt that the appointment of a Senior Clerk at the Table will cost money, but it will be money well spent. This business is not temporary. I have heard it suggested by some of my hon. Friends that this is a phase through which we are passing and that the need for this appointment will pass with time. But that is taking a rather short view. In no fewer than 12 Colonial Legislatures recently there have been very considerable constitutional.advances and all these Legislatures benefit from the assistance of a real expert in Parliamentary procedure.
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These advances in constitutional development are not confined to those Colonies. Advances will continue throughout the Commonwealth. It is not only the new legislature which require assistance. Parliamentary practice is something which develops continually and there is constant interchange between the Table Office and other offices of all the Parliaments in the Commonwealth. A short time ago the Clerk-Assistant in the Commonwealth Parliament of Australia was working here in the Table Office. One member of that Office, specialising in the needs of the various Legislatures, would help now and in the future as our procedure develops.
In this country we have made the Parliamentary machine work and this is recognised in the Commonwealth. As a result the Parliaments of the Commonwealth look to us for advice and assistance. Since we have brought these new States into being it is our duty to help them through the Parliamentary procedure which we have developed through the centuries, and which does not grow up of itself. A great deal of troublesome trial and error will be avoided if an expert in this country is available to help them during their early days.
For those reasons I urge the Secretary of State, with the concurrence of his fellow Commissioner, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, not to be penny wise in this matter. I hope that they will carefully and sympathetically consider the proposal put forward at the annual general meeting of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I am certain that any expenditure on providing additional help at the Table Office for this purpose will bring returns far in excess of the expenditure required.
11.39 p.m.
Sir Edward Keeling: I was in West Africa earlier this year and I can testify, as I am sure can the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson), who also was there, to the great eagerness shown by the Legislative Assembly both in Nigeria and in the Gold Coast to understand and, where applicable, to follow our procedure. I echo the tribute of the hon. Member for Nottingham Central (Mr. Ian Winterbottom) to the work done by Mr. Fellowes, who went from the Table here. I did not see him actually acting as Speaker at Lagos, but

367
I am sure that he followed the best traditions set by you, Sir, and your predecessors.
Another Clerk-Assistant would, I think, have to share the three chairs at present allotted to the Clerks but, after all, we Members—624 of us—share about 400 seats, and I do not think that there would be any hardship in four Clerks sharing three chairs. It is important not only that the extra Clerk-Assistant should be available to instruct and to guide the Colonial Legislatures, but also that he should be in very close touch with procedure as it is evolved here. Therefore he should do his share of sitting at the Table. He would also, of course, look after the courses which are already run for Members and officials from the Colonies. He would look after the officials from the Colonies who, as the hon. Member mentioned, work in the Clerk's various Departments here.
It is a truism that there can be no good legislature without good procedure. The essence of good procedure is to reconcile the needs of Government with the rights of the minority and of Private Members generally. The practice of the House of Commons is not to try to exercise administrative or executive duties. We leave that to the Government. We control the Government by criticism and, if necessary, by turning them out. I have noticed in some of the Colonial Legislatures which I have visited that they do not always understand this method of controlling the Government. They try to exercise executive powers.
To give an example, the detailed Estimates of each Government Department are submitted alike to this House and to a Colonial Assembly. But whereas this House probably shows its disapproval of the Department, by moving that the Minister's salary be reduced, say by £10, I have noticed a tendency in Colonial Parliaments to go through the Estimates in detail and to strike out an official here and there if they think he is not necessary.
I do not say that that method is necessarily wrong, but I think that Colonial Assemblies should at least understand what our procedure is. We do not do that because we do not try to exercise administrative powers. Of course they
368
need not slavishly follow our example. It is for them to decide what their practice should be, but they should do so with their eyes open. I am sure that they would like to have the services of a Clerk of this House to explain the procedure of this House as it has been evolved over a period of hundreds of years, and particularly in the last 100 years
11.44 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: I should like to take up one minute to add my tribute to what has already been said about the success of the Clerk-Assistant's trips to many parts of the world, especially to the Sudan, where I had a chance of serving before the war. Whatever the future of that country may be, we hope and believe that the Parliamentary institutions which have been copied from this country will continue to be developed.
The officials there owe a great deal to the assistance of Mr. Fellowes in their early, formative years. It was not merely on the work inside this Chamber but on the work outside as well that he was able to give great help. I find that when officials come from overseas they receive useful assistance on Public Accounts and Estimates Committee procedure. It has been found possible to adapt the Prayers of this House to all monotheistic religions, and to ensure that whatever may happen later in the proceedings they start off with three quiet minutes.
11.45 p.m.
Mr. James Johnson: I should like to add my meed to the chorus in support of the suggestion which has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, Central (Mr. Ian Winterbottom). I was in West Africa, with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Twickenham (Sir E. Keeling) and it is not just people, like ourselves, who have been out there, who like to see someone here go out and advise and help the colonial peoples on our way of doing business in this ancient Chamber. Yesterday, I met two of the Nigerian Ministers, Mr. Nwapa, the Minister of Commerce and Industries, and Mr. Arikpo, the Minister of Local Government and Development. It is people like these, and many others, who spontaneously told us how much they enjoyed and valued the work done by Mr. Fellowes on the West Coast of Africa.

369
There are many other instances, besides that of Mr. Nwapa and Mr. Arikpo, which I could mention. These people do welcome people like Mr. Fellowes going out there. In my short stay, I saw sufficient to convince me that, if we could accept the proposal mentioned tonight, it would pay enormous dividends in good will and in improved Colonial Legislatures.
11.46 p.m.
The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs (Mr. Henry Hopkinson): I feel that the House owes a debt of gratitude to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nottingham, Central (Mr. Ian Winterbottom) for raising this important topic tonight. I would say, at once, that I feel I am voicing the views of my right hon. Friend and that I fully agree with all that hon. Gentlemen have said about the importance of enabling Colonial Legislatures to benefit from our experience of Parliamentary procedure and practice. Generally speaking, they too, are ready and eager to be helped for they look upon Westminster as their natural model. We must remember, of course, that there are some Colonies with very old-established legislative institutions of their own and with traditions of their own. The Assembly for Bermuda was established as early as 1620 and, I think, in the case of this Colony and certain others, it might be unwise to interfere unduly with existing practice.
We must also remember that there are certain important differences between Colonial Legislatures and Parliament. For instance, most Colonial Legislatures have a single-chamber system. Legislatures also vary very considerably from one territory to another, according to the state of political advancement. But, there can be no doubt that, in general, Colonial Parliaments and Legislatures, and especially those with recent developments in self-government, can profit greatly from the knowledge they can gain of the procedure and traditions of this House.
While it is true that differences in procedure must be dependent upon constitutional differences—that is to say, variations in the extent of powers and the number of Members—it is also true that procedure, in its broad sense, exerts a reciprocal influence on constitutional de-
370
velopment. The balance of the rights of the majorities and the minorities, for instance, secures the forwarding of business and the preservation of the freedom of speech, which are the essence of true democracy.
I should like gratefully to acknowledge the invaluable help given by the Clerk and his staff in providing information and training in this country to officers of Colonial Legislatures; in explaining to visiting members of these bodies the working of Parliament; and, in advising the Colonial Office on questions of Standing Orders. During the past six years, 15 persons from 11 territories, of which five are Colonial Territories, have come over here to receive expert guidance in legislative procedure. A number of officers from Hong Kong and elsewhere are expected to arrive shortly. In addition, there are many visitors from the Colonies, who are constantly writing to the members of the House of Commons' staff asking for advice and assistance.
I should particularly like to take this opportunity of expressing the deep gratitude of the Colonial Office to the Clerk-Assistant for the most valuable work he has carried out in the visits he has paid to African territories and elsewhere over the last six years. He has given up a great deal of his spare time to this work, in addition to the periods during which he has had to be absent when the House was sitting.
In expressing our grateful thanks I am certain I am speaking on behalf of the Governments and Legislatures of the territories he has visited. The House may be interested to know that the Clerk-Assistant has already been engaged upon the work of revising the Model Standing Orders for Colonial Legislative Councils which were issued first in 1929. It is a laborious business and he has put a great deal of time on it. Even so, the work is not yet ready. The gradations vary so much from one territory to another that it is really impossible to devise a code which would cover them all.
The issue of this code is not intended to impose British Parliamentary procedure, or indeed any particular procedure, on any territory, but rather to afford a basis, formed upon the successful experience of the House of Commons, by which a Colonial Legislature may measure its own procedure and practice

371
and, where necessary, introduce modifications.
Inevitably, the attachment of clerks or officers from the Colonial Legislatures to the House of Commons and the Clerk-Assistant's visits have given rise to increasing correspondence with territories overseas, and I am entirely at one with Hon. Members in feeling that the time has come when it is unfair and wrong to ask the Clerk-Assistant and the existing staff of the House of Commons to carry this whole burden. The hon. Member for Nottingham, Central suggested, and my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) originally suggested, a method of meeting this problem which, I must say, appeals to me.
The staffing of the Clerk's Office is, of course, a matter for consideration in the first instance by the Commission for Regulating the Offices of the House of Commons. The appointment of a special member of the staff of this House to look after Colonial Legislatures would certainly seem to offer many advantages. He would, of course, require to travel extensively, but it is equally important that he should not spend his whole time abroad. He would be, above all, an important link with the Table, and his value would
372
depend very much on his keeping abreast of current practice in this country.
The hon. Member for Nottingham, Central thought that such an officer might not be occupied for perhaps more than six months. But I should be inclined to doubt that, if full use were made of his services. Quite apart from the colonial field, I understand that the staff of this House are responsible for advising on the section on procedure of the Inter-Parliamentary Union. They also provide all the arrangements for Officers of this House to work at the Assembly of the Council of Europe, at Strasbourg. They and the Clerks from another place attend there and, from my personal knowledge, do very valuable work indeed.
This is a matter for consideration of the Commissioners. I shall certainly make it my duty to bring the points which have been raised this evening to my right hon. Friend's attention when he returns from West Africa at the end of this week and he will no doubt consider, in consultation with you, Mr. Speaker, what recommendations should be made to the Commissioners in this matter.
Adjourned accordingly at Six Minutes to Twelve o'Clock.

POST OFFICE
  Deliveries, Hazlemere Camp
  Deliveries, Hazlemere Camp
  Switching Equipment
  Switching Equipment
  AIR MINISTRY PROPERTY (PIGS)
  AIR MINISTRY PROPERTY (PIGS)
MINISTRY OF FOOD
  Canned Fruit and Vegetables
  Canned Fruit and Vegetables
  Prosecution, Canterbury
  Prosecution, Canterbury
  Unrationed Goods (Distribution)
  Unrationed Goods (Distribution)
  Milk Consumption
  Milk Consumption
  Scarce Ingredients (Allocation)
  Scarce Ingredients (Allocation)
  Cattle, N. Ireland (Seizure Regulations)
  Cattle, N. Ireland (Seizure Regulations)
  Surplus Potatoes
  Surplus Potatoes
  KOREA (NAPALM BOMB)
  KOREA (NAPALM BOMB)
COLONIAL EMPIRE
  Development Schemes
  Development Schemes
  Ships (Turn-round)
  Ships (Turn-round)
  Meat Production
  Meat Production
  Maize Growing
  Maize Growing
  Referenda
  Referenda
  BRITISH GUIANA (COCONUT AND COPRA INDUSTRIES)
  BRITISH GUIANA (COCONUT AND COPRA INDUSTRIES)
WEST INDIES
  Andros Island Scheme
  Andros Island Scheme
  Mosquitoes, Cayman Islands (Control)
  Mosquitoes, Cayman Islands (Control)
  Trinidad (Jury Service)
  Trinidad (Jury Service)
AFRICAN COLONIES
  Nigeria (Teachers' Pay)
  Nigeria (Teachers' Pay)
  Labour Department Officials, Africa
  Labour Department Officials, Africa
  Bamangwato Tribe (Chieftainship)
  Bamangwato Tribe (Chieftainship)
  Gambia (Ex-Officials' Cars)
  Gambia (Ex-Officials' Cars)
  MALTA (FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE)
  MALTA (FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE)
  FIJI (HURRICANE LOSSES)
  FIJI (HURRICANE LOSSES)
  HIGHER TECHNOLOGICAL EDUCATION (GOVERNMENT POLICY)
  HIGHER TECHNOLOGICAL EDUCATION (GOVERNMENT POLICY)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Earl Morley—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his brother.
The Lord Braye—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Lord Pentland—Took the Oath.
The Lord Suffield—Took the Oath.

CHESHIRE BRINE PUMPING (COM- PENSATION FOR SUBSIDENCE) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
2.39 p.m.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I have a statement to make concerning the Business of the House. As there are over twenty speakers on the list for to-day's debate, it has been agreed through the usual channels that we shall continue the debate to-morrow at half past two. The noble Lord, Lord Wise, will move the adjournment to-day. I think that that will meet with the convenience of most of the Peers concerned.

SCIENCE AND INDUSTRY
VISCOUNT SAMUEL VISCOUNT SAMUEL rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make with respect to (a) the use made by industry and agriculture of the results of scientific research; and (b) the policy they propose to adopt to promote the higher education of technologists; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, it is the custom to say that we live in a scientific age. Certain it is that in the last 150 years science has transformed civilisation: some may think it is for the better, and some, perhaps, may think it is for the
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worse. I believe that I shall be with the majority in holding that, taking into account the standards of comfort, of health and of knowledge, the balance is overwhelmingly on the credit side. But however that may be, taking the world as it is, all will agree that no country can flourish economically, or even be in a position to defend itself militarily, unless it keeps fully abreast with the developments of science.
In your Lordships' House we have had several debates in recent months on the difficult problems that trouble us; and each one of them has ended by indicating the very problems that we shall be discussing to-day. Whether it has been a question of the cost of living and the vicious spiral of prices and wages, or of maintaining our currency at home and abroad, or of finding money and labour for the armament programme, or of increasing the growing of food at home, or of a shortage of manpower, all these subjects have been fully debated; and everyone, at the end, has emphasised as a solution or a partial solution an increase of productivity. All have agreed, also, that the increase of productivity must depend very largely on the adoption of the latest scientific methods.
Underlying these questions that we are discussing to-day is one factor which is of universal and eternal importance, and that is the qualities of the people—the intelligence, the industry and the honesty of the individual men and women who make up the nation. But apart from that foundation there are two definite, practical questions with which the Motion which I have the honour to move to-day specifically deals. The first is, how far are industry and agriculture failing to keep pace with the discoveries and inventions of science? If so, why is it and what are the remedies? Secondly, is there a shortage of technologists of the higher grades, and of technicians as well, and, if so, what are the remedies for that?
The immense national importance of questions such as these was realised in the years before the war, and a group of Members of the House of Commons conceived the idea of forming a new organisation which would link together members of the two Houses and the working scientists. So was formed the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, and

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that body now consists of 123 Members of the other House, thirty-six members of your Lordships' House and the representatives of no fewer than seventy-four of the principal associations dealing with the professions and vocations relating to applied science. That Committee serves a double link. On the one hand, it brings together the Parliamentarians and the scientists and, on the other hand, it links both in combination with the Ministers and the Government Departments. It has served a most useful purpose. The Committee at present is unique in the Parliaments of the world, but many countries are now inquiring into its working with a view possibly to following its example. It is because I have the honour of holding the office of President of that Committee that I ventured to put down this Motion for your Lordships' consideration to-day.
Two years ago there was a similar debate in the other House, but we have now the Minister chiefly responsible for these matters, the Lord President of the Council, in this House, and also another member of the Cabinet, the Paymaster General, who is Scientific Adviser to the Government. Both will be good enough, I understand, to contribute to this debate. There are to be many speakers—so many that we shall have to run into another day. Many of them will be putting specific questions on particular points to the Government. I have only one such question to ask and I will dispose of it before turning to matters of general policy. I have been asked by those concerned to inquire how the question of the establishment of a British Science Centre in London now stands. I know that the Royal Society which, with the other important scientific organisations co-operating with them, first mooted this project, attach much importance to it. In 1944, it was proposed to the Government that such a centre should be established to replace Burlington House, which was provided by the Government of the day for just such a purpose nearly a hundred years ago and which is now quite inadequate. The Government in 1950 gave an Answer in Parliament saying that they agreed to this project and would forward it and would use this Science Centre, when established, to house their own Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and also the Patent
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Office Library and other public organisations, thereby releasing elsewhere much valuable accommodation.
We all fully understand, of course, that, because of present restrictions, it must be some years before the project can be carried into effect, but I would ask the Government how it stands now. It has been stated publicly that the site has already been agreed, and although the location of it was regarded as a private matter, when the late President of the Royal Society, in a public speech, said that they hoped that the Centre would be housed in a building worthy to look Somerset House in the face, it required no Sherlock Holmes perspicuity to make a guess that in all probability this building was to be part of the cultural centre on the South Bank. If this is so, not only will it serve the purposes for which it is intended to function, but it will also contribute to what is likely to be the principal contribution of the twentieth century to the amenities and beauties of London. Remember Wordworth's Lines Composed on Westminster Bridge:
"Earth has not anything to show more fair."
That, of course, was written before Charing Cross railway bridge was built; but when that monstrosity has been removed and the South Bank is completed, with buildings which, we hope, may be worthy of and in harmony with the rest of the river frontage, we shall have there an urban river view not surpassed, and probably not equalled, by any other city in the world, one really worthy of the Capital of the Commonwealth.
Let me turn now to these two heads of my Motion. First, there is the question whether there is a time lag (as it is generally called). That does exist. This country has been a pioneer in revolutionary discoveries and inventions in the scientific sphere during this century. The Cavendish laboratory, under the directorship of J. J. Thomson and Rutherford, solved one of the great, mysterious problems of nature, namely, the structure of matter itself, and opened the door to the great new science of electronics and nuclear energy which, in future generations and centuries, is likely to solve for the whole of mankind the problem of the adequate provision of fuel and power for mechanical purposes.

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Perhaps the Government may be able to say to-day how the great enterprise of Harwell is proceeding. If there is any information which can be given, with due regard to military secrecy, I am sure your Lordships and indeed the whole country will be glad to receive it. Then, in physics we have been the pioneers in radio and radar; in engineering we were first with the turbine engine, with jet propulsion and in taking a part in air transport questions generally; in chemistry we led in the development of plastics; and in medicine in finding the cause and the means of prevention of and cure for malaria, and lately in the discovery of penicillin. In all these things Britain stands in the front rank, and will so stand in the history of science.
But when we come to consider the practical working of industry and of agriculture the picture is somewhat different. In this respect we are by no means at the head. America and Switzerland have in some degree and in some respects surpassed us. A great deal of information has been collected on this head, and it appears that so far as the newer industries are concerned, such as electricity, chemicals or petroleum, we have been quick off the mark whenever anything new comes forward, and in many old industries the larger firms have also proved themselves very adaptable. But the older industries, and mostly those that are in smaller units, such as agriculture and building, have by no means so good a record. There is a time lag which is having a most harmful effect. Some of the other industries which are exposed to the hard conditions of world competition are also in a precarious state because in some degree they have been surpassed by industries in other countries. I will not trouble your Lordships with statistics. One can give a single illustration of the immense benefits that may be derived from scientific application in concerns which have been going on for generations. The British Electricity Authority inform me, in a paper which they have sent, that in the short period of the three years preceding and including 1951 improvement in the methods of utilising coal have resulted in a saving of 2,000,000 tons a year, with not only an enormous strengthening of our economic position but also a great saving of money to the Electricity Authority—and that in spite of a lowering
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of the quality of the coal. This was achieved without having to call upon one additional miner for overtime, merely by more effective utilisation of the product itself.
With regard to agriculture, we have all been delighted from time to time to hear the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, tell us how much more the soil of this country could produce if it were scientifically cultivated, with the same manpower as now and with the same area as now—or even less, because there is a constant shrinkage of farmland through the expansion of the towns. With fuller use of machinery, chemistry, biology and veterinary science, agriculture might produce a much larger proportion of food for our consumption than is now the case, and would thereby lessen the dangerous dependence of this country upon imports. Well, there is that time lag, not only in those but in a great many industries.
What are the causes of it? One is certainly lack of publicity and propaganda. It is very difficult to reach the average farmer or the average builder, to acquaint him with the new and the best methods, though great efforts are now being made in that direction. Perhaps more important, there are the restrictions due to our economic condition upon labour and materials. Buildings or equipment for scientific development in industry cannot be erected because licences are refused. Further, there is the enormous burden of taxation which weighs upon the nation, reducing the amount of capital that can be devoted to development and depriving enterprise of much of its incentive. When we compare the position in this country with that in the United States, we see, partly as a consequence of these conditions, and partly owing to the difference in the technological climate between the two countries, that the proportion of plant used per man in America is twice what it is in this country; and of electric power the proportion used in America is two and a half times what we have here.
At the moment, of course, these conditions have been greatly worsened by the need for carrying out the defence programme. On the necessity for that programme we all agree. Sir Boyle Roche, famous for his Irish "bulls," once said that "the best way to avoid danger was to meet it plump." That is just what

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we and our Allies are doing in this instance; we are avoiding danger by "meeting it plump." No one, I think, would suggest that we should reduce the dimensions of that programme. When we were debating that subject in your Lordships' House a few weeks ago, I ventured to submit that the time might have come when we might reduce a little the pace at which that programme was being carried into effect. That has already been done in the United States, and to a slight extent here; but it might be extended further. If that were done, if international conditions do not necessitate that headlong speed which seemed to be essential a year or two ago, it would give us more elbow room to carry out many of the suggestions which no doubt will be made to-day. Their cost would be relatively very small compared with the national income. We should remember that this is not deadweight, unremunerative expenditure. Far from it; it is highly remunerative—in fact, no expenditure more so. So much for the question of time lag.
I turn now to the question of the shortage of highly trained technologists. The Parliamentary and Scientific Committee sent out a questionnaire on this subject to a large number of its member associations and to many of the heads of the research establishments, and their answers throw a clear light upon this matter. Those answers have been sent to many members of your Lordships' House and it is not necessary to go back to what can only be a partial inquiry, for the whole matter has been investigated very thoroughly by an official committee. Although, in the usual form, I shall be moving for Papers at the end of this speech, one Paper which we should have desired has already been issued, it was published in advance, about a week ago, just in time for this debate. I refer to the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy appointed by the Lord President of the Council, which consists of the Report of a Sub-Committee on Scientific Manpower. After one and a half years of labour that Sub-Committee have presented a most valuable Report, Command Paper 8561, which many of your Lordships will have seen, and that answers very clearly the question that has been in our minds. I will not endeavour to give the gist of it, but will quote a single sentence. It is this:
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"The general conclusion is that there is likely to be a long-term shortage of practically all kinds of scientists, and that every effort should be made to increase the supply, with particular emphasis on chemists, chemical engineers, mechanical engineers and physicists."
We may perhaps agree in taking that conclusion as our starting point.
In considering this matter we ought, surely, to take into account not only our own needs in these islands but also the needs of the Commonwealth, and particularly of the Colonies. Men of foresight can easily see that in the next decade or so Africa and Asia will play increasingly important parts in the economics of the world, supplying to us here many of the things which we need and taking from us many of the things we can offer on a far larger scale than has hitherto been thought possible. They will all need technicians and while, no doubt, every effort will be made to secure these from among their own people, they will, certainly in the first stage, have to depend very largely upon those from Europe. The British people therefore have a duty, as trustees of the interests of those Colonies, to supply that demand so far as they can. Moreover, indirectly, that will also assist our own interests. It used to be said that: "Trade follows the flag." Perhaps that is less so now than it used to be, and we are coming more and more to find that trade follows the technician.
How are we to achieve this increase of supply? There has been another Advisory Council on this matter, the Advisory Council on Education for Industry and Commerce, appointed by the Minister of Education. They published a Report in 1950 on the Future Development of Higher Technological Education. Here we are in the field of very active controversy. This Committee recommended as their chief proposal the creation of a new Royal College of Technologists, which would have a status equalling that of any of our universities and would be staffed by men of the highest qualifications. Others who have studied this question, and lived with it, do not agree with this recommendation; they would rather select some of our principal technical colleges and raise their status, increase the financial support given to them, and double the number of their students. Others, again, would enlarge the present scientific faculties of the universities—especially of the newer ones.

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Yet others advocate a combination of these various methods.
The late Government had this problem before them but were not in a position to resolve it. In February, 1950, in your Lordships' House, Lord Burden, replying for the Government, said that it was still under consideration. In May of that year, Mr. Morrison, who was then Lord President, gave a similar reply. That is two years ago. The word "consideration" in the mouth of a Government spokesman is almost a sinister word, and it is not made much better when he calls it "active consideration "or" immediate consideration," or even if such a term is used as that employed by the Prime Minister two days ago in the House of Commons when he said that a particular matter was being "attentively considered." That gives us rather a dreadful glimpse of what is going on in Government offices in the way of "inattentive consideration." The new Government have come into office with fresh minds. We have waited to bring forward a Motion of this kind until they have had time to look around at their problems, and I hope that in this debate the matter may be put to an issue and that one or other of the Government spokesmen, or both, will be good enough to say in what direction they think current activities in this matter should proceed, for though this, as a long-term problem, must involve necessary delay on account of shortage of manpower and materials, we ought to know what is the future prospect and plan for the development of this matter.
My final point is this. We may be on the eve of very important decisions which will determine, perhaps for a generation, the trend of the development of our national system of education. We all feel that the civilisation in which we live is too materialistic, too technical, and there is a widespread feeling of anxiety on this head. It would be a very serious thing if a large proportion of the young men and women—among them people possessing some of the most alert and active minds in the country—during their formative years, from the ages of sixteen or seventeen to twenty-two or twenty-three, were subjected to an education which was wholly technical. If a man leaves a technical school, or even a university, at the end of his career there, a specialist,
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and nothing but a specialist, whether it is as an engineer or a chemist or an agriculturist, whatever degrees he may be able to append to his name he is not an educated man. The same is equally true, indeed, with regard to one who has been subjected solely to a classical education and is wholly ignorant of the world of science. He, too, has not been taught to "see life steadily and see it whole."
The Report to which I have referred, which was published a few days ago, refers to this aspect of the matter in these terms:
"There has been remarkable unanimity among our informants that, although present day science graduates are adequate as scientists they tend to lack a sufficiently broad education."
and, the Report adds,
"not only in a general sense, but also in the field of science."
Scientists themselves fully recognise the danger with which they are faced. This danger is also becoming recognised in America. A couple of months ago when I was in the United States I took occasion to visit Boston and there to see the famous Massachusetts Institute of Technology—universally known as M.I.T. It is an exceedingly impressive establishment covering 100 acres, with a long frontage on the broad River Charles. It comprises over twenty great educational buildings and many others of an ancillary character. The Institute gives a four-years' course, as a minimum, to some thousands of students, many of whom continue post-graduate studies, and has an annual spending budget of from 11,000,000 to 12,000,000 dollars, with nearly as much again to pay for work that is being done there for the Defence Departments of the United States Government.
This establishment was not created all of a sudden, and those who would make it a precedent for building all at once another "M.I.T." in this country forget that it is the result of a growth of more than eighty years. It was founded in 1865 and is still expanding, in recent years with great rapidity. I had the privilege of an interview with four heads of the Institution, who were good enough to answer a number of my questions, most of which were concentrated on this one point—the danger of the education of technologists being too narrow. I

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found that they were much alive to this and were making every effort to combat it; that they were, indeed, broadening still further the range of their curriculum. They told me that all students had to give from 16 to 20 per cent. of their time to the arts and humanities. A wide choice is offered in arts in the curriculum, including history, political and social science, philosophy, literature, languages and music. They told me that their relation to Harvard University close by was this: that the M.I.T. regarded it as their business to humanise the scientists and Harvard regarded it as their business to "scientise the humanists". So all agree that what is necessary is a broadening of general education. They recognise, and I think in this country we should recognise, that technology, like the machine, is the servant of civilisation—the indispensable servant, but the servant only—and must not be allowed either to dominate or to monopolise.
Some of your Lordships may remember the first Lord Craigmyle, Thomas Shaw, in one of his charming books, describing this incident. A wealthy man rented a great deer forest in Inverness-shire. Walking one day with an old gillie along the glenside, he looked over the barren and stony country, dotted here and there with small patches of cultivation and the cottages of the crofters, and said to his gillie, "In God's name, what can you grow here?" The old man took off his cap and said, "In God's name, we grow educated men." And what a breed of educated men and women have come from that soil! So we should also realise that, in setting a fresh course, technology is not enough; that life is more than livelihood, and that a nation of technicians which may become rich and numerous and powerful will not attain greatness unless it has something more than riches and numbers and power, unless it also cares for the things of the mind and of the spirit. I beg to move for Papers.
3.14 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Samuel for placing this Motion on the Order Paper and for the most successful effort he has made to mobilise the large muster of speakers, who I am sure will produce a good debate. Perhaps
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the noble Viscount will allow me to say that he has made himself master in the realms of both science and philosophy. The noble Viscount was good enough to suggest to me, after a speech I made some weeks ago to the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, that it would be well if I were to be given an opportunity of telling your Lordships and those who read our debates, either in Hansard or in the daily newspapers, something of the extent of the Government's interest in these matters. Perhaps it would be convenient if, at the outset, I answered this specific question which the noble Viscount put to me.
I want to assure him that the present Government are in agreement with the statement on the site for the Science Centre that was made to your Lordships by the late Lord Addison on November 21, 1950. No final decision has been made, but your Lordships may be aware that a site on the South Bank immediately below Waterloo Bridge and facing Somerset House has been reserved for a Science Centre by the London County Council, which is the planning authority, and was so reserved in the County of London Plan. Obviously, at this stage I can give no assurances as to when that Science Centre will come into existence, and the noble Viscount did not ask me to do so. But if I may be permitted to express a personal view, your Lordships may rely upon me to use whatever in fluence I have to secure that that Science Centre at some time takes shape on that noble site, which I think would be gratifying to the whole country.
It is particularly important at this time, when our economic position is subject to considerable strain, that the country should realise the importance of the industrial application of scientific knowledge and method and its relation to our present financial position. As a nation, we are suffering great hardship in order that we may balance our imports and our exports. During recent years they have been gravely out of balance, with the consequent devaluation of our currency and a rapid rise in the costs of our imports. Particularly has this been reflected in the restriction of the supply and the increase of the cost of our food. During these last few months we have been compelled drastically to reduce our imports, and con-

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sequently to reduce our standard of living, in order to preserve our remaining financial reserves.
The country is well aware of these facts, but I very much doubt whether people have realised that the solution to this problem will depend, in the long run, on whether we are prepared to work our way out of our present troubles. Restriction was an immediate and urgent necessity, but we shall get out of our present financial difficulties only by a policy of expansion. New ways of doing this will have to be found, so that we can produce more of what the world is prepared to buy from us, and produce it at lower prices. New articles will have to be produced, both for home consumption and for sale abroad, which depend to a lesser extent on purchases of raw materials from countries that are not prepared to take sterling except at a discount. Men and women will have to be found to use and develop new methods of producing these new articles, people with the vision and the courage to foster fresh adventures in the field of industrial enterprise.
In the past, in the days when perhaps we were the wealthiest nation in the world, we could afford to rest a little on our accomplishments and to let other nations, perhaps more needy, perhaps less self-satisfied, exploit the discoveries that our scientists and our researchers had made, apply them to industry and so build up their national wealth. Scientific knowledge was freely exchanged. A few days ago I found myself standing in the laboratory where the great chemist, Perkin, discovered the means of preparing aniline dyes, in what is now called the Imperial College of Science. However, it was not the British, but the German industrialists who gave these aniline dyes to the world. More recently, as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, told your Lordships, our scientists discovered penicillin, but it was the American industrialists who gave it to the world. In future, we must see to it that we benefit our own economy by the exploitation of discoveries and researches made in this country.
I mention these points at this stage because of the plea that I desire to make, through your Lordships, to a wider audience. I have spent the greater part of my life engaged in the industrial and
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commercial life of this country. If I have any influence at all in the fields from which I came, I want to tell the industrialists of this country that we depend largely upon their enterprise to restore the solvency of this country. Here is a call for a national effort. We must develop our own resources; we must increase our export trade by many hundreds of millions a year; and, in order to do this, the whole force of scientific research and development will have to be used. Through your Lordships, therefore, I appeal to those outside this House for a closer alliance between science and industry.
Fortunately we have knowledge in abundance in this country. What the nation needs is the will and the opportunity to use that knowledge. Her Majesty's Government, and previous Governments—for this is a problem which, happily, is outside the field of political controversy—have spent many millions of pounds in endeavouring to encourage the application of scientific processes to industry. In particular, as your Lordships know, the Lord President of the Council is responsible for the oversight of the Medical Research Council, the Agricultural Research Council and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research—if I may say so, I find that responsibility very much to my liking—and my noble friend Lord Cherwell, who will wind up the debate, has the responsibility of advising the Government on the other aspects of scientific research, and more particularly those concerned with defence. Of course, I make no claim to any ability to guide the distinguished scientists who are in charge of these many operations. But I shall be glad if I can convince this country, which these scientists seek to serve—they want to be used—of the outstanding benefits that would come to the nation if their efforts were more widely understood and used.
Apart from the £18,000,000 a year the Treasury provide for the universities, a considerable part of which is used in training scientists, we are spending directly £16,000,000 a year on civil scientific research, the bulk of it through these organisations directly controlled by my office. I admit that even this sum is not as much as some scientists, and, indeed, many members of the Government, would like to spend on scientific

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research, and perhaps in ampler times the amount may be increased. This great Government scientific organisation is designed to pursue the various fields of scientific research, much of it "applied" research, in the direction where those most qualified to judge think that the most fruitful and practical results are to be obtained.
The set-up of the organisation is one that makes expansion easy. This is demonstrated by the fertility of some of the Government scientific establishments in giving birth to most powerful and flourishing offspring. For instance, one of the oldest of them, the National Physical Laboratory, has in its short life of some half a century already produced powerful offspring in the Mechanical Engineering Research Laboratory and the Radio Research Organisation, whilst the Building, Road and Hydraulics Research Stations also owe something to work originally undertaken at the National Physical Laboratory. The broad plan of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research—the total Government grant for which is roughly £5,500,000 a year—is to have a number of directly financed research stations, such as those I have mentioned, doing work in spheres which are more appropriately carried on by Government than by industry. Problems of direct concern to particular industries are dealt with by some forty separate industrial research associations, ventures in which both Government and manufacturers assist financially, but for which the particular industry concerned is primarily responsible. There are many firms too small to carry out research on their own account: who would reap considerable advantage from the knowledge and experience that they could gain from membership of these associations. I commend these associations to members of those trades.
The relationship between industrial development and the Medical Research Council is one of the most interesting aspects of Government research. I am sure your Lordships will allow me here to pay tribute to the great contribution which my predecessor, the late Lord Addison, made to the whole field of Government support for research, and, in particular, to the field in which he personally had much expert knowledge—namely, medical research. It was he who was largely instrumental, many
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years ago, in association with that really great pioneer, Sir Waller Morley Fletcher, in creating the Department. If I may venture on a personal note, I like to recall that among the earliest lay members of the Industrial Health Research Board of the Medical Research Council the late Mr. Ernest Bevin and I jointly served. The Medical Research Council's budget is now over £1,500,000 a year. Their work covers a vast area of research, running from, if I may use the phrase, the common cold to the more deadly diseases that afflict the human race. A striking development in medical research at the present time is the application of new knowledge in the field of atomic physics to the treatment of cancer. New radioactive substances have become available for trial in the treatment of this terrible disease, and also new machines producing radiations of great strength. These instruments are very costly. The line of research, therefore, involves expenditure on a scale never previously found necessary in the field of medical investigation. I merely report the fact of this research taking place; what success will attend it time will show.
That science is international is nowhere more true than in the medical field. There is free exchange of information, and even a considerable amount of movement of research workers from one country to another, benefiting all. I think your Lordships will be glad to know that in this country we house at our National Institute of Medical Research, the central establishment of the Medical Research Council, a World Influenza Centre, the function of which is to study the spread of epidemics of the disease and the strains of the infecting virus responsible for particular outbreaks. I was there the other day, and it was most depressing to think of the many different forms of influenza which one can contract in this country.
During the war, the Medical Research Council, in collaboration with each of the three Defence Services, were greatly concerned in the development of what came to be known as personnel research. That is a study of human efficiency in relation to the performance of particular tasks, such as the rapid manipulation of complicated instruments and weapons, and also in relation to conditions of work involving great stress and strain.

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Methods evolved then are now available for further studies of human problems in industry. This Medical Research Council is a most learned and distinguished body, and I am glad to have been able to persuade a member of your Lordships' House, the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, to succeed Lord Addison as Chairman of that body. Already I am told he has won the confidence both of his Council and of the staff of the organisation. If your Lordships will permit me, I would say that I am deeply grateful to the noble Earl for adding in this manner to the services that he has already rendered to the State.
Agricultural research costs this country about £3,000,000 a year. The Agricultural Research Council is responsible for all programmes of Government-sponsored research work, either directly, where the cost falls on its own funds, or through its advice to the agricultural departments in respect of research institutes which have grants in aid. Your Lordships will naturally ask what we get for the money which the Government expend on research and, as the noble Viscount said, whether the fullest use is being made of the results of the work which is undertaken. I do not need to tell your Lordships that research projects cannot always produce positive, and certainly cannot always produce immediately measurable, results. But if your Lordships will bear with me—I am sorry to occupy your time for so long—I should like to detail some of the items of research work which are going on. A large number of people are working on this subject, and it is some encouragement to them to know that so distinguished a body as your Lordships' House is taking note of the work they are doing. Therefore, perhaps your Lordships will be good enough to bear with me if I occupy your time a little whilst I recount some of their activities.
Revolutionary changes in existing industries and the creation of new industries are, of course, infrequent, but when you look back on the history of existing industries you often find that you can trace their beginnings to some piece of fundamental research which was carried out, not with a view to its application, but often as a piece of fundamental research carried out by some scientist in his own
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insatiable curiosity for the pursuit of knowledge. Great Britain has led—and let us be proud of it—and still leads the world in fundamental research, and many are the benefits to industry which have come from it. A recent example, for which we have had world-wide acknowledgment, is the development of radar. This can be traced directly to fundamental research work which was carried out by Sir Edward Appleton, with the support of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. At the present time, this Department is assisting fundamental research into nuclear physics and radio astronomy. But scientific advance in industry is usually much less spectacular and often much slower than this. It usually follows research work and investigations which are not likely to capture the imagination of the public.
Your Lordships will be aware, if you know anything about this subject, of the day-to-day assistance which is being given to industry by the National Physical Laboratory on the means of maintaining engineering standards. Your Lordships may know something of the Geological Survey which has helped the civil engineer, the water engineer and the mining engineer in their pursuits. But may I give your Lordships just three specific examples of the way in which the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has saved the country money? If we can demonstrate that we are saving the country money, that is the surest way of being able to obtain more money for the development of research. Your Lordships will therefore forgive this somewhat sordid commercial approach that I am making in the next few words.
First, let me talk about roads. The maintenance of our 100,000 miles of surface-dressed roads in this country is an expensive business. It costs some £10,000,000 a year, on the basis that the life of a surface of a road is as long as three years. As a result of improvements, largely due to the work undertaken by the Road Research Laboratory, the average life of a road surface may now be five years and may be up to ten years. This, alone, means a saving in the cost of road maintenance of several million pounds a year. Secondly, let me take the treatment of sewage. Great advances have been made in this field

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as a result of work done by the Water Pollution Research Laboratory; and by the adoption of the new method of alternating double filtration the cost of the filters for a large sewage treatment plant recently rebuilt was reduced from £480,000 to £87,000.
We all know that our trade balance position would be greatly improved if we could increase our coal exports, for which there is a very strong market abroad—though even that may not last for ever. At home, our industry and our householders have suffered far too long from inadequate stocks in a cold winter. All the experts tell us that the remedy for this situation is close to our own hands—namely, fuel economy. To this end the Fuel Research Station has made important advances in the design of heating appliances and insulation for domestic and other buildings. I would mention in passing that the Fuel Research Station has now developed a simple and cheap device which, when fitted to the doors of hand-fired Lancashire boilers, prevents the emission of smoke. This device is being produced by a large number of firms, and when it is in general use the saving of coal will be considerable.
I should like to give to your Lordships one or two examples from the very many which have been sent into me of the results of the work undertaken by the research associations—the co-operative ventures between industry and scientists to which I referred a short time ago. Largely as a result of intimate co-operation between the Iron and Steel Research Association and industry, Great Britain now leads the world in the design and in the instrumentation of open hearth steel furnaces. No other country has so many open hearth furnaces where the fuel input is controlled by the roof temperature. And as a result of the Association's work, the weekly output of many of the melting shops has been increased by as much as 20 per cent., and it is calculated that the saving in fuel consumption amounts to over £1,000,000 a year.
The Production Engineering Research Association shows more examples of considerable economic gains from investigations carried out at very small cost. I think this might interest your Lordships. In one case an investigation costing £25 resulted in more accurate tool-grinding
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which led to a seven-fold increase in the rate of production and a reduction in the operating costs from £120 to £20 per thousand articles. In a second case, work costing £25 led to the installation of two new machines costing £1,500, to replace slow machining and hand-finishing of special non-ferrous components by a single finish machining operation. This resulted in an increased rate of production and a reduction of the cost per thousand components from £1,400 to £100. In the textile trade the Wool Research Association's processes for making wool un-shrinkable and free from felting have been widely used on an increasing scale, both in the United Kingdom and abroad. The weight of wool so processed in the United Kingdom has risen from about 2,300,000 lb. per annum two years ago to over 4,000,000 lb. last year. I hope industrialists, if they chance to read these stories, will find themselves a little encouraged to pursue this use of science.
I could give your Lordships many more interesting examples if I had the time and you the patience. But I should like now to say something about the efforts we are making to assist the process whereby new scientific knowledge is placed before industry—recognising, of course, that industry itself is immensely active in this respect. These begin with the full publication of the results. The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research do this through scientific and technical reports issued through the Stationery Office and papers read to professional and learned societies, and through bulletins for practical industrialists and for trade journals. But more than that, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research establishments follow this work up in a number of ways. For example, one of the most effective ways of getting results of research used is to embody them in a British Standards specification, where they become the basis of contracts. Again, information at the research stations is held freely available to anyone who inquires. The research associations circulate information to their members, and, which is very important, they are following it up by personal contact. The Cotton Research Association, for example, employs some twenty liaison officers who spend practically all their time in going to member firms telling them of results which have been achieved.

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All these steps are meeting with some success; but I should be much less than frank with your Lordships if I were to say that I am anywhere near satisfied that British industry is making sufficient use of science or that it is fully equipped to do so. There is a need for some general review of the effectiveness of current arrangements for ensuring that the results of research make their contribution to the development of the British economy at the present time; and I am asking my Advisory Council on Scientific Policy—of which, I am happy to say, I have been able to persuade Professor Todd, the organic chemist of Cambridge, to take the chair—to look into this question.
I referred earlier to the development in other countries of such fundamentally British discoveries as aniline dyes and penicillin. A more recent example, about which some of your Lordships may have heard at the soirée at the Royal Society the other night, is terylene. Here is a new process, a synthetic fibre at least as valuable as nylon, a purely British discovery. It was, in fact, discovered in Manchester in 1946. Since the original discovery research and development have been pressed with great energy and speed by Imperial Chemical Industries Limited—probably just as rapidly as they have been in America, where a parallel development has been going on under licence. Nevertheless, terylene is going into production faster in the United States, and products from it are already being made to compete with our own textiles in the export markets of the world. Here it would seem that our main handicap is that the actual construction of a chemical manufacturing plant in this country takes about twice as long as it did before the war. This may well be due to delays through material shortages, and it is an open question whether it could have been avoided. The problem is obviously a most complex one, and simple and speedy solutions of such problems are harassed by our internal and external financial problems. My general conclusion on the use which industry is making of the results of scientific research is that, contrary to the impression that one sometimes gains in some quarters, a great deal of practical applied research is being carried on in this country. Having said that, I am quite satisfied that
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there is an almost inexhaustible field waiting for us to cultivate.
I should now like to turn for a few minutes to the field of agricultural research, with which many of your Lordships are familiar. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Rothschild, the chairman of the Agricultural Research Council, is unable to be with us to-day, because this is a matter on which we should have welcomed his expert knowledge and experience. I take the opportunity of expressing in public my indebtedness to him for the considerable help he has given in this aspect of scientific development. The field covered by agricultural research is so large that it is difficult to select examples of the very many lines of research in progress either at the agricultural institutes or in the universities of this country. Work at least as valuable in the economic sense as industrial research has been done and continues to be done to improve production of our pastures and arable crops by breeding varieties with high yields and other desirable qualities and by better methods of fertilisation and management. Much progress has also been made in the feeding of cattle, and already the breeding of cattle, particularly by the smaller farmer, has been remarkably advanced by the introduction of artificial insemination. Continuous work on animal diseases is bearing fruit; and outstanding successes in this field have been the control of contagious abortion in cattle—once a serious scourge of the dairy industry and a cause of very heavy losses of milk. The other thing in which we have made considerable progress has been the control of swine fever. There is no doubt about the increasing interest which the farming industry is showing in technical development, and I could occupy your Lordships' time with many examples of the progress that has been made.
I should now like to turn to the second part of the Motion which is before your Lordships, dealing with the higher education of technologists. It is quite obvious that if industrialists are to make the maximum use of the results of scientific and technological research they must employ on their own staffs highly-qualified technologists. With some outstanding and very successful exceptions, an understanding of the scientific basis of

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technical progress is still not regarded as an asset from the factory floor to the board room. I hope that British industrialists will give fresh consideration to this matter and consider the experience of other countries who have mobilised the best scientific knowledge available in the management of their businesses. If we are to compete on equal terms with competitors in the United States and in certain of the European countries, we must follow their example in this and employ first-class technologists—and not only employ them but offer them both salaries and prospects and a wider scope of responsibility sufficient to attract them.
There are, of course, many examples in British industry where we not only hold our own with the rest of the world, but lead it. Examples that come to my mind are in the aircraft world—the design and production of the Comet, admittedly the most advanced civil aircraft in the world, and the design and production of jet engines. The excellence of these products is no accident. It occurs because the direction in management in such firms has its due proportion of engineers and technologists, men who understand the business and who are always following the researches of sciences in order to seize on any advance and turn it to the advantage of the industry with which they are connected. The recently published Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy incorporates an interesting Report on Scientific Manpower, to which the noble Viscount referred. This draws attention to the likelihood of a long-term shortage of practically all kinds of scientists and technologists, arid concludes that a substantial increase in scientific manpower is essential in the interests of technical and industrial efficiency.
I cannot hold out to your Lordships any hopes of an immediate and dramatic increase in the facilities for the training of higher technologists to ensure that top-level men will be trained in the numbers likely to be required. Here, supply must wait on demand. But, as noble Lords will be aware, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has allowed for an increase in the grant to the universities for the quinquennium 1952–57 to permit of some expansion during that period. In distributing the grant the University Grants Committee
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will no doubt have regard to the need for scientific and technological progress.
For a long time discussions have been going on in academic circles as to what steps should be taken, and where, in order to encourage young men to train themselves for this sort of work. I am certain that in these days, when we have been forced to recognise that we must develop our world trade if we are to live—it is as vital as that—we must take active steps to train an officer class for industry. Whilst I hope that British industry will increasingly give every opportunity for the man or woman from any rank in the business who has the necessary ability to progress in the firm to higher position, and to be elected to join the board without regard to his financial interest in the concern, I am convinced that more than that is necessary now. Industry depends on the ability of the man with commercial knowledge, upon the skilled craftsman and upon the highly trained engineer or chemist, or whatever grade of science is used in the technology of the enterprise. We have been behind other countries in supplying this form of training and in attracting men who have it away from the very pleasant shelter of the university, and the research laboratories in the university, into the industries where their knowledge can be applied.
I am glad to be able to make to your Lordships a statement, which I hope will give some satisfaction to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, of the Government's views on the matter and which is also being made this afternoon in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is as follows.
"The Government consider that a most important means of increasing productivity in industry is to improve facilities for higher technological education. They are convinced that this can best be done by building up at least one institution of university rank devoted predominantly to the teaching and study of the various forms of technology. We are, therefore, urgently exploring the practical possibilities as to the best way of doing this. As regards the last Government's White Paper, I should say that we fully recognise the important contribution which technical colleges

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can make to higher technological education, and details of our proposals for improving financial assistance available for selected colleges and courses will be shortly announced by the Ministry of Education. We do not, however, pro, pose to establish a non-teaching, award-making body under the title of The Royal College of Technology." There ends the statement.
LORD STRABOLGI: Did the noble Lord say "actively explore"?
LORD WOOLTON: No—"urgently." There is no joke about it.
LORD STRABOLGI: I did not hear the noble Lord.
LORD WOOLTON: "Urgently explore"—they have every intention of doing something about it.
I hope that I have convinced your Lordships of the Government's earnestness in this matter of research and its application. I await with interest the views that will be expressed by other noble Lords, for I feel that our debate to-day will be invaluable in bringing to the attention of both industry and agriculture the facilities that are available to them, not only in Government organisation but through the whole realm of applied science. I beg of them to take advantage of the facilities that are available to them. I apologise for speaking for so long a time.
3.59 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with the words of the Lord President in expressing our gratitude to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, for introducing this important debate. For thirty years I have sat and listened with admiration to speeches which he has made during that period. To-day, again in the method of the master, the philosopher and the idealist, he has presented his case in such a way that it must be convincing to all of us who have heard it and to those who will read it. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, particularly for his announcement, with which I will deal later. It indicates that some progress is now being made. I cannot pretend to approach this subject in the scholarly manner of the two noble Lords who have
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preceded me or the noble Lords who are to follow me. I am afraid I cannot claim to be a graduate of any university, although I have been honoured by having conferred on me honorary degrees of a university of my own nation and of one of the most progressive universities in England.
To-day I want to approach this matter from the angle of the harnessing of technical knowledge, technology and science, to industry. I like the idealistic note upon which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, ended his speech. It was a proper end. But I am afraid I shall have rather to frighten your Lordships in regard to the industrial production position of this nation at the present time as compared with that of other nations. I say, without hesitation, that if we are to maintain our position in the world of trade we shall have to do something on the lines suggested by the Lord President of the Council, for it cannot be denied that we are facing sharply-growing competition in the world's markets, and our position is gravely challenged by other nations, some of whom are well ahead of us while others are overtaking us in relation both to their efficiency to produce and to their largely increased production.
During the course of the last three or four years I have listened with a great deal of interest to the warning notes which have been sounded in these debates by the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell. I have always felt that a great debt is owed to him and to others, including my noble friends Lord Chorley and Lord Calverley, who have been hammering home this particular point during those years. I was greatly impressed with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, in February last year, when he gave the figures of productivity of the United States of America and of the United Kingdom. I recently visited the United States because I was anxious to study, in a short time, their industrial production and the effect upon that production of the use of scientists and technicians. I collected some information which bears out the information which I am now proposing to give to your Lordships' House.
In addition to seeing this system in operation, I have seen a statement made recently by Mr. Paul Hoffman, the President of the Ford Foundation, and formerly the Economic Co-operation

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administrator. Referring to the United States economic system, he said that the benefits accruing from it have been steadily increasing and have served all persons well in the United States. This is largely the result of the spectacular increase in industrial and agricultural productivity that has taken place in the last half century. He said that in America industrial output, including that in agriculture, per man-hour, is now roughly three times what it was in 1900. At that time there was little difference between the output per man-hour in Western Europe and that in the United States. Now, there is a difference of two and a half times in favour of the United States.
The output of steel in the United States is six-and-a-half times greater than that in this country. So great has been the momentum of United States production during the last twelve years that the American people are enjoying the highest living standards in history. The United States is now producing one-third of the world's goods and one-half of the world's manufactured goods, with nothing approaching one-third of the world's land, and only about one-fourteenth of the world's population. We might ask ourselves: What accounts for this commanding industrial position? Unlike Europe, America has not felt the full blast of two world wars. It has many advantages in the form of large natural resources; it has the great advantage of a large single market, and it can obtain all the machinery which industry requires. I saw a report issued by the American Government which stated that during the course of last year industry in America spent no less than 25,000,000,000 dollars on new plant expansion, improvement and new equipment. The relationship of that figure to our currency is something like £9,000,000,000.
But these advantages alone do not account for the great disparity in productivity. I think that we shall have to look not only to physical but also to psychological factors. The Americans are making extensive use of non-human energy which is being put to the use of their 62,000,000 industrial workers. There is an average, not of twice as much, as was mentioned by the noble Viscount, but eight-and-a-half horsepower, as compared with the two-and-a-half horsepower put behind the efforts of industrial workers in Europe. American factory
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managers are constantly installing new and improved machines in their works. Their managements are stalled with people with much scientific and technological knowledge and a deal of technical skill. For the past twenty years these specialists have been playing an enormous part in this great production effort and the saving of much raw material.
I have been interested in the forty-odd reports of the productivity teams which have been sent from Britain to the United States to study the situation there. They have proved beyond doubt that these modern methods of production and scientific management, with the almost universal acceptance of incentive payment schemes, have largely increased production; and that, in turn, made possible a very high wage, a rigid five-day week of forty hours, has improved the relationship between men and management, and has extended, rather than retarded, the influence and the scope of American trade unions. During my stay I visited some half a dozen large works. An interesting fact was that in each of those works I was met by members of the executive who are descendants of people from this country. In one works I was met first by a man named Parry, who told me that his father hailed from Merthyr Tydfil. Another man named Lloyd came, as a matter of fact, I think, from almost the home of the ancestors of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd—Merionethshire. Yet another man, named Jones, came from my own valley. I did not know they were there, but they were. Each held a commanding position in this industry.
I spent two days in the neighbourhood where this industry is carried on. The average wage of the unskilled worker, not only in that industry but in the United States of America generally, is one dollar, sixty cents an hour. On the basis of a forty-hour week that works out at the equivalent of something like £22 a week. The average wage of the skilled worker is something like two dollars, thirty-five cents an hour, which gives a weekly wage in our money of from £33 to £35. All this is largely the result of the harnessing of this technical skill, the work of the technologist and, indeed, of the scientist, with that of the industrialist and the efforts of the workpeople. Consider the position in this country. Man for man, I am sure, the British workman is as good

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as his American counterpart, but he has not the tools; he has only about one-third of the equipment which the American has at his disposal. Moreover, apart from the larger industries, the British workman has little or no scientific and technological guidance. The result is that production in a given time is only one-half or one-third of what it is in the United States. I am convinced that if this nation is to maintain its place in the world it cannot afford to fall behind in the pursuit and application of new knowledge to industry.
In this matter the universities and schools of this country should devote themselves to a study of the new conditions which have been applied with such great success in other countries. The latest report of the Committee on Scientific Manpower gave these figures. The number of American university degrees awarded in science and technology in the year 1949–50, was 110,000. In this country the corresponding total was 14,000. Allowing for the difference in the sizes of the labour forces and in the sizes of the populations of the two countries, this means that America is turning out and employing three times as many scientists and technicians as we are. More than that, they are planning to increase their facilities for training scientists, particularly at higher levels, where at present we enjoy a relative advantage, as was pointed out by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and the Lord President of the Council. It is not only in comparison with the United States that we produce significantly fewer scientists and technologists. The same applies when we consider a little country like Switzerland, which is much smaller in every way than ours. Germany also is building up her scientific and technological strength. As we know, in the pre-war period she pretty well led the world in many fields of scientific discovery, particularly in regard to the synthetics of various materials. If we wanted any of the new processes for coal treatment in this country we went to Germany for them, for that was one of the matters in which she led the world.
I entirely agree with all that the noble Lord the Lord President of the Council has said with regard to the need for additional scientists and technologists. It is true that we have increased the number of people studying in the universities—we have doubled it. But when we talk of
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doubling the number, we have to bear in mind that the starting off number was very low in 1939–40. So when we speak of doubling the number it does not mean that the result comes to a very large figure. As a matter of fact, it comes to something like 10,000 or 11,000. And we are told that there is likely to be a very eager demand by many industries for this type of specialist. It is pointed out very clearly in the Report referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and by myself, and it is certainly true, that for six years in this country—notwithstanding the fact that we have had numerous Reports from Committees—we have done very little, apart from increasing these numbers. Now there is something of a lull in relation to any further increase, despite the fact that the services of these people are so urgently required. I yield place to no one in the pride which I take in the high standard of university education in this country. But what many of us would like to see is many more of our young people sharing it. At present those advantages are confined to a comparatively small proportion of the population.
From figures which I saw in relation to the post-war position (and I have no doubt that the position is the same at the present time) I should say that we are well below nearly all the other industrial and civilised countries in this respect. Indeed, there is a striking disparity between the three nations which make up the United Kingdom—England, Wales and Scotland. In pre-war days the figure for England was one undergraduate in every 1,013 members of the population; in Wales it was one in every 741, and in Scotland one in every 480. In the United States it was one undergraduate in every 125 of the population. If there are advantages in a university education—as unquestionably there are—it should not be limited to the extent it is at the present time. I believe that if one could get statistics of the intake into the universities of this country it would be seen that, notwithstanding the fact that during the last sixty or seventy years there has been an enormous increase in the number of universities, the increased proportion of entries has been very small. While in the last four or five years the number, as compared with 1939–40, has increased from 50,000 to 85,000, I should not mind hazarding the opinion (I am taking a

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small risk here) that that increase is a greater increase than that which took place in the period from 1900 until 1939–40 notwithstanding the very considerable expansion in the population.
I am also somewhat concerned because many universities are not facing up to these modern problems. Let me take engineering as an example. From the report of the Ministry of Education, Education 1900–50, which gives the numbers of recipients and holders of State scholarships and supplemental awards attending universities, I find that in 1951, out of a total of 5,206, only 396 were engineering students, studying civil engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, aeronautical engineering and chemical engineering; and I have no doubt that a large proportion of that figure of 396 is made up of the 261 from the technical schools and the 58 scholarships for mature students. That indicates something of the situation.
I do not want to take up too much time, but I should like to mention one matter which is of great importance. There is no doubt that financially the universities have benefited considerably during the past ten years—and rightly so, because expenses have substantially increased. When Chancellor of the Exchequer, the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, increased the amount of the universities' grants from £2,000,000 to £5,500,000—more than double—and since that time the recurring grants have increased considerably beyond that figure. They are now £16,500,000. In addition, no less than £17,000,000 has been spent upon improvements, buildings and additions, which were essential. I am not complaining, but I should like to point out that the universities have reached the stage at which the recurring grants paid by the University Grants Committee form 75 per cent. of the total income of the universities, a percentage which is higher than that of the schools of this country. I am not suggesting that this is too much, but in view of the revised terms of reference to the University Grants Committee, which were given them in 1947, that they should take national requirements into consideration, I should have thought that here was an opportunity for the universities to give greater help in producing an
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increased number of scientists and technologists.
I was delighted with the announcement made by the Lord President of the Council. I can see behind it a good deal of work by the Paymaster General, and I am convinced that between the two of them this will not be merely a promise that is being held out. I should like to suggest that, for a start, the Lord President should consider his own college, the Manchester College of Technology, which he has served with such great distinction. What about the Royal Glasgow Technical College and my own college in Wales? It would be a fine gesture, which would appeal strongly to industry, if the Government would say that they would raise four of these colleges to university status. This would give status not only to the colleges concerned, but also to the whole technological educational system. Technological education would not then be regarded as the poor relation of our educational system. Technological education has now become one of the vital parts of our educational system. It has made great advances in all branches. During the last three years the number of students has increased by six times, from 40,000 in 1939 to 241,000 last year. In 1949, 8,770 students of technical colleges were undertaking university degree work, mostly external degrees of London University, on a full-time basis, and a further 11,200 on a part-time basis. Nothing could give them greater impetus than the speedy fulfilment of the plans outlined by the Lord President.
There is one thing that I should like the Lord President to take up particularly. Perhaps the reason is the shortage of science teachers and technologists, but the fact is that young people are not getting much scientific training in many of our secondary schools, particularly in our grammar schools and some of our public schools. The report of the Advisory Council shows that technical training is bad in our grammar and public schools. It would seem that it is so bad that the War Office are now to train their own technicians, taking in boys at sixteen for training, as the Royal Navy has done over a long period. That is an indication that sufficient is not being done in our secondary schools. There is no doubt that the big industrial organisations can afford to employ, and actually do employ, technologists with a university and higher

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technological training; and, as the Lord President said, large sums of money are being spent by these large firms. But it must be remembered that the major portion of production, both industrial and agricultural, comes from small firms with fewer than 500 employees. I would plead for something more to be done to bring the work of scientific and industrial research to the notice of these smaller firms. If they could be given an assurance that there will be no Government "Snooping," as some of them fear, then I have no doubt that a good deal of useful work would be done.
In conclusion, I should like to tell your Lordships what I consider to be the attitude of the trade unions to increased production by means of scientific and technological guidance, modernisation and re-equipment—I have no doubt that we shall hear a good deal of this during the course of the debate. I would remind your Lordships that, arising out of the report of the team of British trade union officials who visited the United States to investigate the operations of the American trade unions as they affect industrial production, the General Council of the Trades Union Congress recommended that unions should interest themselves actively in modern production and management techniques; improve industrial efficiency; employ staffs qualified to assist on production problems and establish, where appropriate, their own production departments; provide for their members generous education and training facilities, and consider whether their journals were dealing as effectively as they should with this problem.
Let me say at once that this represents a great change in trade union thinking. While British trade unions have no desire to apply American methods in their entirety to British industry, the trade union movement is insisting on the need of much modernisation and re-equipment. This involves assistance from the scientists and technicians, and also the maintenance of a high level of capital investment. There is no doubt that increased production per man-hour is the only way to enable us to compete in the world markets, to advance real wages and, at the same time, to bring down prices. If we are to win out of what might well be an economic defeat, and lay the foundation for an economy of abundance, such
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new techniques and new methods must be adopted and must become the general practice throughout British industry. Scientists and technicians can and should play their full part in bringing this about.
4.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: My Lords, I entirely agree with those who have spoken as to the great debt which this House owes to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, for having initiated this important debate. I myself approach the subject that we are discussing with a deep conviction, which I share with other noble Lords who have spoken, that our future economic life, and, indeed, the position of this country as a great nation, is entirely dependent on the fullest application of the results of scientific research in industry. Without that our living standards will be in jeopardy and our authority and influence in the councils of the nations will decline progressively. I feel sure that everyone would agree that it is far from being the case that all that is necessary to bring about a satisfactory state of affairs is being done at the present time.
It seems to me that the problem is one which has to be approached from several angles. We have to consider the educational system of the country, the resources devoted to research, the means available for bringing the results of research to notice, and the attitude of industry. It is not possible for any speaker to deal fully in a debate of this kind with all these various aspects, but I should like to devote a few minutes to each of those separate matters to which I have referred. First, as regards our educational system. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, referred to schools as well as technical colleges and universities. So far as our school curricula are concerned, there is probably not very much amiss. So lone as young persons in school learn the sort of things that they could learn only with disproportionate effort at a later stage; so long as the education they get serves to bring out hidden aptitudes, in addition to developing social sense and character, there is probably not much amiss. I should myself take a rather different view from that of most noble Lords about science in schools. I believe that the teaching of science in schools, especially at the earlier ages, can easily be overdone. It may exercise a quite fatal

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fascination for young persons who would do much better at that stage to devote their time and their talents to other things. There is a real danger that a misdirected school education may tend towards too early and too narrow specialisation. I venture, with a certain amount of experience, to stress that point strongly.
As regards the higher education of the country, it is the fact, as the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, recognised, that the measures taken a few years ago to increase the output of graduates from our universities have had a remarkable measure of success. The aim that was set before us by the Barlow Committee has nearly been realised. Whether the proportion of graduates on the highest intellectual level has been correspondingly increased, I rather doubt. It may be that investigation would show that the best graduates were being turned out by the universities years ago in much the same numbers as they are to-day. But even if the increased output consists largely of men who are below the highest intellectual and academic level, they are still very much needed and in great demand, and the increase in output can be cordially welcomed. There is still a great shortage of highly-trained technologists. I was glad to learn from the speech of my noble friend the Lord President of the Council that at long last, after protracted discussions and consultations, some decision has been arrived at in regard to the steps that are necessary to remedy this shortage of trained technologists. I am not sure that I fully grasped the implications of the statement that my noble friend made just now. I thought I heard him refer to one institution which was to be established. Was he, I would ask, thinking of something on the lines of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or did I misunderstand what he had to say?
If I may just give my own view—and I have had to think about this a good deal—I would say that it would be an excellent thing if we could have in this country one, or more than one, institution comparable with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the Californian Technical Institute or the great technical educational institutions in Germany and Switzerland. But it is going to be a great undertaking; it is going to be very
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costly, and it will probably take quite a long time. I feel that something must he done sooner. This is one of those subjects which in truth brook no delay. I should like to see a selection made—and here I am following very closely something which fell from the lips of the noble Viscount, Lord Hall—of some of the best and most promising technical colleges. I should like to see in that selection a good geographical distribution. I should like to see the colleges so selected deliberately raised to university level, linked up preferably with existing universities, and I hope that degrees would be conferred upon technologists on the basis of a broad curriculum and not a curriculum confined strictly or exclusively to scientific subjects.
I have been associated with scientists for more than fifty years. I went to Germany to do scientific research nearly fifty years ago, and I say to your Lordships that there is no more pathetic sight in this world than a badly educated specialist. We must take great care not to turn those out in undue number. If the course which I have indicated, or something similar, could be followed; if we could thereby raise the status of the technical colleges to full university standard and give degrees on the sort of basis which I have indicated, a very great step forward would have been taken. For the rest, the existing technical colleges could be encouraged to develop the good work that they are already doing, and it would be desirable that they should be left in association with the great local authorities. But those technical colleges which, in my view, should be raised to university standard should be detached from the ordinary educational system of the country and put in the position of universities, receiving their assistance through the University Grants Committee. I see no purpose in setting up a parallel body for that purpose. There would be ample scope for the existing universities, for the technical colleges raised to university status, for one or mere central institutions comparable to those great institutions to which I have referred, like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as and when they can be developed; and yet something might still be left to be desired. I am rather concerned—as I am sure are other noble Lords—at the increasing shortage of men willing to

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devote themselves to the teaching of science. Unless, somehow or other, that deficiency can be made good, no development to which one can look forward in the organisation of teaching institutions can be fully effective. That is a matter to which those concerned ought to give very close attention.
I pass from the consideration of the educational system to the question of the resources which are being made available for research in industry. I believe we make a very great mistake if we underestimate what has been done in recent years in that direction. I have no exact figures, but it is probable that not less than £50,000,000 a year is being devoted to-day to industrial research in the great firms and in the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and, under its auspices, through that most wonderful and effective institution the research association, which was invented, I think, by a former Lord President in the middle of the first European war, and which has been developed on an extensive scale under successive Lord Presidents of the Council, until now practically all the important industries share in the benefit of research associations. So far as that is concerned, the problem to-day is largely one of filling the gaps which still exist.
Apart from that, there is, I believe, a great need for giving more attention to research at the development stage. It is not unusual, in discussing these matters, to distinguish research from development, but research passes by insensible degrees into development, and I am sure that it is better to consider both together. But while much work is done and great assistance is given to industry through the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and in other ways at the research stage, I think there is great need for assistance (for which facilities do not at present exist) in promoting development, particularly so far as the smaller units in industry are concerned. Whether anything can be done under the guidance of the Lord President and his Departments to encourage the development in this country of institutions comparable to the Battelle and Mellon Institutes in America I do not know, but of the existence of the great need I have no doubt at all. This is a matter in which
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the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research could probably give material assistance.
I wish to say a word about a subject to which my noble friend the Lord President of the Council referred—namely, the facilities at present available for disseminating knowledge already gained. I cannot help thinking that he took perhaps too optimistic a view of the present position in that respect. A few years ago the Royal Society organised a series of conferences devoted entirely to this question, but my own experience leads me to believe that there is still a great deal which needs to be done in order to bring the latest developments effectively to the notice of those who have the will and would wish to make practical use of the results of scientific research. There is the whole question of the publication of abstracts showing what work has been done and where someone seeking information on a particular subject should look in order to get it. There are great difficulties over the pedestrian task of reproducing reports and distributing them. I know of industrial concerns which have been led by a realisation of the grave deficiency in this country in this respect to make, from their own resources, considerable grants to assist in the distribution of scientific literature which has a bearing on industrial development. I was glad to hear the Lord President say that his Scientific Advisory Council were giving attention to this matter. It seems to me that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, with the scientific societies and the various professional bodies, perhaps in association with the Federation of British Industries, might usefully apply themselves now to this technical problem, because it is surely the height of folly to spend large sums of money and devote the energies of large numbers of highly-trained people to finding out things which can be applied practically with great advantage to the whole community, and then fail to provide the people who have the will and the opportunity with the means of informing themselves as to how all that can best be done. I do commend this strongly to the attention of those concerned.
LORD WOOLTON: I am very much obliged to the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: Finally, I turn to the attitude of industry towards

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scientific research. We are suffering as a nation from having had too easy a time several generations ago, when there was no serious competition and when we enjoyed the benefits of our insular position and of ample supplies of material, of coal and of iron. We built up industries—traditional industries, as they are called—which worked on well-tried and well-established lines, with no particularly obvious need to go in for innovations or novelties. If you look at the whole field of industry, you will see a sharp distinction between, on the one hand, the older and traditional industries, and, on the other hand, the new industries established on the basis of science, such as the chemical and electrical industries, petroleum technology, and so forth. There is a sharp distinction, and it is folly to suppose that the attitude of mind of those who are concerned with the traditional industries can be changed overnight. But it is changing. There are most encouraging signs in some of the old industries that are now having to face competition—the textile industry, for example, which is having to compete with similar industries overesas and with the new synthetic industries that are being developed.
I was interested, as a director of Imperial Chemical industries Limited, in what the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, said about terylene. It is being developed in this country as rapidly as the resources of labour and material and the difficulties of the licensing departments allow. As the noble Lord rightly said, there is a parallel development in America, a fibre called, think, dacron, which is identical with terylene. It is being produced in increasing quantities and will be produced more and more in this country. It is important that such development should not be hampered unnecessarily. I do not suggest that it is. But there are difficulties in this country which do not confront industrialists tackling similar problems in other parts of the world—not only in the United States, but in other countries, including perhaps Japan. If the noble Lord can use his influence to ensure that facilities are made available to those who wish to develop in the way I have mentioned he will be rendering a very great service.
I believe that the prejudice—a largely unconscious one—on the part of those
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who are carrying on the smaller units of industry, is being progressively broken down. But there are many small firms who, although they are doing very important work—more important in some cases than that which is being done by the larger concerns—cannot afford to employ scientists of sufficient standing and in sufficient numbers to make full use of the latest scientific discoveries. I think that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research should give special attention to these smaller industries. It would, I have no doubt, be a very good thing if in the management of those industries there were, as there is now in the management of the larger and more recently established industries, a higher proportion of scientifically-trained men. That will come with time. Do not let us suppose that an efficient scientist or research worker has necessarily in him the quality of an effective executive. The great thing is to ensure that there are no artificial barriers; and if men who are not scientifically trained can develop the scientific habit of mind, and if they have associated with them men who are scientifically trained and in addition have executive capacity—as a great many certainly have—then progress in industry will be more satisfactory in the future than it has been in the past. In that respect we need only remember the achievements of such men as the late Lord Cadman to see what can be done by scientists in executive positions in industry.
Finally, I should like to ask the representative of Her Majesty's Government who will be speaking later whether anything can be said in this debate about the proposed Science Centre. It is some years since the predecessor of my noble friend went a long way with the Royal Society in outlining a plan for the development of the South Bank as a great Science Centre. I know there is considerable concern among those who were associated with those discussions as to the fate of the proposals. There are difficulties of accommodation which cannot be tackled so long as there is a state of uncertainty in regard to the future of that ambitious but praiseworthy plan. It would be a comfort to all these people if they could be told something as to the probability of some future development.
4.57 p.m.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, we have had some very interesting speeches and we are to have more. But what has been satisfactory, I think, is that every speaker has drawn attention to the fact that if we are to survive as an industrial nation we must equip ourselves on the scientific side in order to compete with the outside world. That is a satisfactory state of things because it was not always thus. I can remember very vividly in my own life the attitude of industry towards science, an attitude which was admirably summed up by Hilaire Belloc when he said:
"Never, never let us doubt
What nobody is sure about."
That was the attitude of industry. They looked upon science rather like a cow looking at a passing train. There is a change —and that is quite right because we are, basically, a scientific nation.
As one looks at our country, it is clear that there is no body in the world like the Royal Society. It is pre-eminent throughout the whole scientific world, without question and without rivalry. To have the great letters "F.R.S" after one's name, as my noble friend Lord Waverley has, is, apart from the honours which flow from the Crown, the greatest honour in English life. But those are the stars in this great society. There is no reason why, if we can produce stars like that, we cannot produce scientists, technologists, technicians and others. In the last ten years that curious body the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee has done noble work. It shows what a non-Party body with drive and imagination can do and it has made the whole country realise the importance of this subject. Here I must pay a tribute to the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley. There was a time when we went to him, and there were times when he went with us to see various Lord Presidents of the Council, as they changed with political changes. In office and out he has been a great ally of science and an inspiration.
The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, told us—and I am sure that nothing is more true than this—that we are short of technologists and technicians right through industry. Examples have been given to-day of British inventions which have been developed and brought to commercial success in other countries
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when that should have been done in our country. It was not done, owing to lack of initiative and attack, and to a shortage of technologists. I do not want to make a long speech but I want to put this thought before your Lordships. We are not getting for the money we are expending the right proportion of people following up from technician to technologist, and up to scientist. Many of the boys who are being educated to-day, when they get to about seventeen years of age, are anxious, as indeed they should be, to earn money for their families. They go away to some smallish job, rather than remain another two or three years to get that education which would give them a much bigger and more important part to play in our industry. That situation ought in some way to be stopped.
I make the suggestion that industry should give a guarantee, firm by firm, to colleges—or should invent some machinery whereby they can do it—that they will take a certain proportion of these boys from these technical colleges, because they have just as great a responsibility as the State has. As noble Lords have pointed out, the State has spent a great deal of money, quite rightly, on this important aspect of education and industrial development, but your Lordships must remember that it is a partnership between State and industry. I consider that the State has roused itself and done important work in this development, and it now rests with industry to play its part to see that our money is not wasted.
5.2 p.m.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, I was in your Lordships' House when this Motion was moved by the noble Viscount but, some one and a half hours before. I was in an armchair, after an excellent lunch, hundreds of miles away from this Chamber. I was, in fact, in the air in the "Comet" with other members of this House, guests of Sir Miles Thomas, on a trip round the coasts of England and Wales. I refer to that for a deliberate reason: I regard the "Comet," in which it was my privilege to travel to-day, as indicative first of the great ability which we have in this country for scientific research, investigation and discovery and, more important still at this moment, of the ability of British industry to turn those discoveries quickly to the use of this country.

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It seems to me that one of the main problems raised in this Motion is the continual ability of this country to produce ideas and of other people to exploit them. I suppose it was only right that we should look to a nationalised industry to give the lead that it was possible to give by taking the decision to build a plane of this kind straight from the drawing board. I suppose, too, that it is to those industries that we must look for the building up of better relations between the two sides of industry. That is one of the great difficulties facing the user of some of the scientific discoveries of to-day, and it is rather from that angle, as distinct from that so far adopted by noble Lords, that I wish to speak as the result of some thirty years of being a trade union official in this country.
Whatever may be the position in nationalised industries, I think that, in spite of the competitive content of industry, some private industries find it more difficult. I suggest to your Lordships that there has been too much antagonism in many of the private industries of this country to developments. There has been, too, a lack of desire to reach genuine agreement between the two sides of industry, and that feeling has militated against the use of some of the scientific productions which could have helped to the greater productivity of our industry. If more managements would take to heart the wise words which Lord Wool-ton's colleague, the Minister of Labour, used last week in his speech on a number of these new productive instruments, when he urged that the two sides of industry should secure a greater consultation in order to exploit the means of production and handling to a greater extent, we might get better use of some of the scientific research than we see to-day.
The trade union movement wanted something rather different from what it received from the Labour Government in 1947, in the Industrial Organisation and Development Act of that year, but it gave its support to the provisions of the Act, indicating its preparedness to co-operate sincerely in the tripartite development councils. The trade unions wanted to take part in a co-operative effort to increase our industrial efficiency through a variety of methods, and not least by the application of scientific research to indus-
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try, which is the subject before your Lordships this afternoon. The trade union movement was realist, and I would that many of the employers had been equally realist. What we are anxious to secure is that there should be a greater realisation by those in charge of industry that it is of vital interest to the workers employed in the industry that they should be consulted about, should know about, and should take part in, the research work and the preparation for improvement in the industry. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has already referred to the point which I mentioned in opening, that all the great discoveries have come either front Britain or from Europe and have been exploited elsewhere, notably, of course, in America.
I would direct your Lordships' attention to the recent post-war report of the President's Scientific Research Board, a board containing many of the names most famous in American life, who make it clear what their view is.
"It has been our genius in America,"
the Board tell the President,
"to take innovations and develop them tremendously and swiftly, and we have done this exceedingly well."
The Report goes on,
"But now much of Europe is impoverished and many of its laboratories destroyed,"
adding
"we are no longer able to profit from European scientific advances to the extent we have in the past."
I will not detain your Lordships by quoting further, but this extract in itself is indicative of the realisation by our great allies on the other side of the Atlantic of the way in which other countries are able to get ahead in exploiting the things that this nation has thought of first. It is that state of affairs that I am sure the noble Lord will want to remedy by the great interest he is taking in the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the like.
We are all aware that the larger British firms have their own laboratories, and they can make a major contribution through their own scientists. We are equally clear that the average British firm cannot be in possession of an efficient laboratory of its own, and certainly cannot possess staff capable of directing the firm's activities. That was the justification for the co-operative organisation

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and for the suggestion of development councils to which I have referred, of which only four were established. As I understand it, they are functioning as well as can be expected, in view of the antagonism which employers have shown to development councils as such. The opposition to those councils has come ostensibly for a number of reasons: from a dislike of statutory organisation and of the recognition of trade union status, and also, it has been suggested, from the existence of what has become an industrial focal point alternative to the employers' own trade association.
I refer to these development councils quite deliberately, because I believe that they are, and could be, of great value, and that in the main this opposition was an emotional one on the part of employers. Because this Act was put on to the Statute Book by a Labour Government a number of employers regarded it rather as a halfway scheme towards nationalisation, instead of as a serious endeavour to make private enterprise efficient and enterprising. In my view, and I think in the view of most of your Lordships, that was not an Act of Parliament based on Party politics, and I venture to believe that had that Bill been brought to this House in 1952 by the present Government, and not by a Labour Government three or four years ago, the wiser elements in industry would have found themselves supporting the Government that made the proposals to Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, said that we speak to a wide audience when we speak here, and therefore I throw out to employers the hope that they will look at some of the ideas which development councils express, so that we get in industry the beter relationship that will give us the production required.
In the absence of the development councils, the research associations, whose Reports are included in the Report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, recognise that a central organisation can expedite the changes which are essential if our industry is to go the way we want it. I should like to pay a tribute to the way in which these research associations are working, even though I do not think they are ideal instruments, or that they co-operate with many people in the way that they should. I should like to say to the noble Lord
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who led for the Government that it would seem to me to be madness and a false economy if any attempts were made to cut down the amount of grants given by the Departments for which he is responsible, leading to a reduction of the resources of these associations for the great work that they have to do.
I am sorry that more of the research associations do not take the trouble to co-opt representatives of the trade union movement. One of the differences between the research associations and the development councils is that in these councils the trade unions have direct representation. There is need for the realisation that the trade union movement cannot take the view that anything which increases production must always be supported, forthwith, in all circumstances. The workers have got to be considered by the management. I commend the astonishingly good words of the present Minister of Labour, in a speech last week dealing with this factor. When he opened in London an exhibition which everybody on both sides of industry ought to see, he said:
"Many managements underestimated the amount of preparation which any change required before it could be introduced."
He went on to say that
"if one machine can do the work of three or four men, it is not unnatural that the men who would be replaced should look askance at the installation of the machine."
If we are going to solve these problems, so that the results of scientific research can contribute to the speeding up of production from each man, and so improve the economic life of this country, it becomes vitally essential that the support of the trade union movement should be forthcoming. The trade union movement has not hesitated to help with production. I am sure the noble Lord opposite will be the first to agree that it has shown its capabilities by what it has done in respect of the Anglo-American councils on productivity, and by its recent decision to help form the British Productivity Council. It has done everything it can to expedite that work.
Since I have spoken partly in critical vein, I should not like it to be thought that I want to suggest that British industry has not done a great deal indeed since the war. Without doubt, the best firms in this country, as was shown by the Report of the Anglo-American Pro-

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ductivity Council, compare favourably with the best in America. I think it is further down the line that our standards decline, by comparison, and it is there that we have to look for the improvement that research and the application of science can give. The truth is that in the post-war years some 20 per cent. of the production of this country has been devoted to gross capital investment. New processes have been introduced and have been recognised, and new methods have been adopted in industry. Although the spotlight occasionally turns on those little "flare-ups", by way of strike, the plain truth is that there has been great harmony between the two sides in industry, and there can be continued and extended great harmony in the application of new resources and new discoveries to industry.
My Lords, I am afraid I am keeping you a considerable time, but I ask your indulgence for a few minutes more because I should like to say something about the second part of the Motion. There can be little doubt in the mind of anyone about the general attitude of the Trades Union Congress towards higher education for technologists. The general line has always been to lay emphasis on the urgency of the need for an expanded provision, the need for taking prompt action rather than for spending yet more time debating what action should be taken. Long delay without decisive action is something which the trade union movement would criticise. If we were to see all the Reports that have accumulated in our Library since the Report of the Percy Committee in 1945 and contemplate how little has come out of any of those Reports, I think many would be greatly shocked.
I believe that the trade union movement would be behind the general proposition put forward by the National Advisory Council on Education for Industry and Commerce, for the establishment of a Royal College of Technologists. I am not capable of expressing a firm view about that. I know that even on this side of the House, as well as on the side opposite, there are divergent views as to whether of three different methods of progress, this is the one which is most desired. But I believe that the trade union movement would support that proposal. What is certainly sure
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is that the recommendation for a radical improvement in the technical colleges so far as finance, staffing, accommodation and equipment are concerned, would be supported, because improved facilities in all respects and at all levels are the desire of those who represent the working side of industry.
I should not like to sit clown without a brief reference to the valuable Report of the Department of Scientific and industrial Research which the noble Lord presented to the House within recent months. Believing, as I do, that we stand nowhere in the industrial world unless opportunities for industrial research are there, I think we must be careful what we do about finance. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, was probably right when he said that we must work our way, and that new ways must be found. Notwithstanding the need for economy, we shall not work our way and we shall not find new ways if we restrict unduly expenditure on some of these research equipment propositions. For instance, the hydraulic research station must, I am sure, be completed by 1954, as the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research urges. If we are going to hold our own in respect of equipment of quays, harbours, docks and waterworks, the Mechanical Engineering Research Laboratory must not be slowed down. The Water Pollution Research Laboratory must he got on with. If it is not, your Lordships who have devoted so many hours to discussing the pollution of rivers will have wasted many late nights spent on these Benches in the belief that you were creating an effective piece of legislation.
If the extension of the London Airport is in fact to absorb most of the existing site of the Road Research Laboratory, I suggest to the noble Lord that a new site and construction of a new laboratory is urgent. It is not much use your Lordships having debates about the number of deaths on the roads if we do away with the Road Research Laboratory. I hope that we shall go ahead with that very quickly. The same applies to the Building Research Station. It is not much use trying to go ahead with the construction of as many houses as possible in a limited period of time if the Building Research Station is not developed as it ought to be. I was amazed to read in the Report

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—probably the noble Lord was amazed also—that we, who are the great shipbuilding country, have to try to hold our own in the shipbuilding industry without the proper apparatus. We learn that the United States, the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, Holland and Sweden, possess up-to-date tanks for testing ship models, whereas we have two tanks which are completely obsolescent and incapable of meeting the needs of industry for tests for which, in any case, the industry pays, and not the Government. Something should be done about that new tank without any unnecessary economy. I use the words "unnecessary economy" because I am as conscious as anyone of the need for economy in this country in these difficult days. But there can be good economies and bad economies, and economies which merely make more difficult the task of those who have to build up industry on which our future depends are economies which ought not to be made by any Government, whatever its political colour.
May I make one final observation about research organisations and the Report? I am not a financial expert, therefore I can speak only as an innocent, but it seems to me to be absurd for us to go on with the financing of these great projects in the way we are doing. After some thirty years of life in and around Her Majesty's Civil Service, I know that our financial system is the greatest and the most efficient in the world and that our system of properly presented Votes is the right one. I also know some of its effects, and they are very obvious in respect of the work of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. Money not used by the end of the year for which the Vote is given is money which is lost in respect of the projects concerned. The building of these huge machines, these vast tanks, must take one, two or three years. No one can forecast with accuracy the time which their construction will occupy. It seems to me, therefore, to be absurd that money cannot be carried over from an annual budgetary amount in order to facilitate this construction in some way. It is clear that in the business world, people would not dream of not making the necessary financial arrangements. I do not suggest for one moment that I can tell the noble Lord who presented the Govern-
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ment's case anything about business. He knows a thousand times better than I do how well and effectively business would deal with this. I shall feel happy, therefore, if only I have succeeded in putting into his mind the idea that something should be done to ensure that money from Votes is not given up at the end of the year merely because of the theory of finance which, very rightly, we have operated in this country up till now.
My Lords, I have kept you too long. I have deliberately taken rather a different line from that which most other noble Lords have taken, and probably a different line from that which most of you would expect me to take, seeing that I am the only practising trade union representative in this House. I end by saying that the war showed very clearly that the delays of which this industry of ours was guilty in the pre-war years were not due to any inability on the part of this country. We made co-operative discoveries during the war and we used those discoveries freely, honestly and immediately in the interests of winning the war. I have already indicated to industry how much I think many of the major units of industry could do. I am convinced that we have a great deal more to do. It is clear to me that we in this country are capable not only of making major discoveries but of exploiting them in the interests of our own nation, and not leaving it to others to exploit them. This is something that calls for immediate action and not for unnecessary economy. Therefore, I think I can do no better than draw the attention of the House to some words which I hope many of your Lordships will have read, but which may not be familiar to all. They are the closing words of Professor Sir Ian Heilbron in the report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research:
"If this country is again to be prosperous, British industry must make science a real and living force in its daily life. There is no need to learn this lesson as we have learned so many in the past through bankruptcy and unemployment—but time is getting short."
5.27 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I wonder whether your Lordships will allow me, for the benefit of noble Lords who may be speaking later, to say with reference to the question of the building of the tank for the shipbuilding industry to which the noble Lord, Lord Crook,

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referred, that that is not being held up. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has agreed that we should spend that money. There will be delay, of course, but that will be the result of matters relating to design and will not be due to economy. We shall go ahead with this project as quickly as the design is available. Perhaps your Lordships will forgive me for intervening at this moment, but I did not want there to be any misunderstanding with regard to this particular matter.
LORD CROOK: May I thank the noble Lord on behalf of myself and other noble Lords on these Benches for a very valuable contribution to this debate?
5.28 p.m.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, in speaking on the Motion of the noble Viscount, I would ask the House for that indulgence which your Lordships' kindly tradition accords to those addressing you for the first time. The matter on which I should like to speak is the Report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Advisory Council, which the noble Lord, Lord Crook, has been discussing in his closing remarks. That Report has been issued in somewhat critical terms, and, as a member of that Advisory Council and one of those who drafted the Report, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for his courtesy in allowing me to speak on these matters this afternoon. I feel that the greatest contribution which the Government could make in making the nation and industry more science-minded would be to set it a uniformly good example—that is to say, they should have a correct policy towards scientific research, and that policy should be implemented with understanding and executed with resolution.
There is no question of the good will that clearly pertains between the world of science and successive Lord Presidents of the Council and successive Governments. Great generosity has been shown on many occasions. But, somehow, between the good will shown by Governments towards the scientific community and the actual execution of agreed policy there comes into play a misunderstanding as to the terms upon which scientific research can actually be carried out. Scientific research is a long-term problem, and nothing short of the steady pressure of organised curiosity upon the unknown
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will result in the winning of new knowledge. If that were not the case we should all have been very wise long ago. It is therefore necessary to have long-term plans and to stick to them through all difficulties and discouragements.
The Lord President has referred in complimentary terms to the work of the fourteen research establishments which operate under the authority of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research; but one does not realise just how good they are until one goes abroad professionally, as I do, and hears the opinion of other nations upon these establishments. Then one learns that their directors are men with international reputations and that the work which they do commands the esteem of their scientific peers throughout the world. After the war it was thought that the conditions under which many of these excellent establishments were working were unsatisfactory. In many cases the establishments were started a long time ago, and occupied somewhat archaic sites under unsatisfactory conditions. A post-war plan of expansion was accordingly agreed to. The Report (Command Paper 8494) expresses grave disappointment at the non-fulfilment of these plans. I should abuse your Lordships' patience if I went at too great a length into the details of why that has been. Suffice it to say that we seem to be trapped in the cobwebs of our own legislative spinning.
Wherever one of these establishments turns for a new site, there is always some authority or other which has been set up with power to say to a Department operating on behalf of the Government, "Get out" or "Keep off." One authority, for instance, has power to say to the Road Research Laboratories, "Your site must be cleared and razed to the ground in order to make room for the expansion of London Airport." We live in a small and crowded country, and if we want anything so large as an international airport, clearly obstructions must be moved out of the way. But what has been done to find an alternative site? After several years of effort and the inspection of forty different sites, the Road Research Laboratories are still prospectively homeless. If it is not the county agricultural committee, it is the local council; and if it is not the local council, it is the Town and Country Planning Act. Even squatters have added

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their note of tragi-comedy to the situation by saying, No, you cannot come here; we got here first." When one thinks of the tribute paid to the Road Research Laboratories by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, that they are saving us many millions a year in surface dressing, and that under the authority of the Road Research Laboratories comes the Road Safety Organisation, whose responsibility it is to supply the knowledge with which our Legislature and Administration endeavour to keep death off the road, I cannot help but feel that we could do better than that for the Road Research Laboratories.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, also spoke of the Radio Research Board. The Radio Research Board appear to have beaten the Road Research Board by a short head, because at the fortieth attempt they appear to have found a site and need no longer be divided between temporary buildings on a site at Datchet and a temporary site which they occupy in a corner of the National Physical Laboratories. In 1947 the great Commonwealth country of India, to mark its independence, decided to build a chain of research laboratories throughout the length and breadth of the land to provide the people with the knowledge with which they intend to govern their affairs. After five years that chain is completed. It stands as a monument to the vision of Mr. Nehru and the drive and energy of Sir Shanti Bhatnagar. That is what India has done since 1947. Since 1927 the Water Pollution Research Laboratories have been waiting for a home. They are still dispersed over five different temporary sites. A definite beginning for building on their chosen site was promised in 1939. Another definite beginning was promised in 1950. And another definite beginning, I am glad to say, has been promised in 1952. One can only hope that it will be a case of "third time lucky."
Again, the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, spoke of the Mechanical Engineering Research Establishment as if that were a completed establishment. It is scarcely one-quarter complete and has been subjected to a temporary cut in its building programme. I am told that the corresponding organisation in Germany, which was started after the war, now stands two-thirds completed and occupied. Can
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we afford to fall behind in mechanical engineering research which, so far as the products of its associated industry are concerned, accounts for £750,000,000 worth of our exports? Can we allow the Germans to steal a march on us? I am glad indeed to hear the assurance which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has given us about the ship tank. The same applies to the Hydraulics Research Station and to the Fuel Research Station. Was there ever a country so dependent on fuel for its life-blood as this country? The Fuel Research Laboratories occupy an unsatisfactory industrial site, where their surroundings are polluted by the very products of combustion which they are trying to study; and the whole nature of the site is so unsatisfactory that the establishment is working at only two-thirds of the level of employment at which it seeks to operate. Yet one gadget, the joyous overplus of a piece of war-time research carried out by the Fuel Research Board, if applied in industry, could pay for the Fuel Research Board's establishment ten times over every year. With the nine-tenths remaining in the first year, we could still pay for a new home for it twice over. That concludes what I have to say about the research establishments of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.
I must make it clear that for all these sad matters the Lord President is, of course, in no way to blame. He has been responsible for these matters for only a matter of months. Nor would I in any way seek to blame his predecessors. If we must blame anything, we must face the fact that the nation as a whole is not yet what I may call science-minded; not as science-minded as it should be. "Where there's a will there's a way". In Norway, football pools are made to pay a levy, and that levy is paid over to a committee which administers it in the interests of science: so much so that Norwegian scientists now have an embarras de richesses so far as endowments are concerned. It is a pleasure to go round and see the fine new buildings which they are determined to have and the first-class set of scientific establishments which they are producing. Must we fall behind Norway, a little country with scarcely one-twentieth of our population?
The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is fortunate in that

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its Minister is the Lord President, who can be relied upon to bring to the conduct of its affairs a large measure of the authority that stems from seniority. The structure of the Department was wisely conceived when it was founded during the First World War, and I can assure your Lordships that it commands the respect of scientific administrators throughout the world. There is nothing in the world quite like our Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. No indigenous product compares with it and, with the exception of Commonwealth and Scandinavian countries, who are copying it, there is nothing like it. In particular, in the United States they have nothing so good on the administrative side as our Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. We have an excellent machine. We must lubricate that machine with the modest finance that it requires in order that it can grow at its natural rate.
It is not my function to say what the nation can or cannot afford by way of capital investment every year. That is the function of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place. But let us look at the matter against the background of our own wealth. We have a national production which is estimated at £13,000,000,000. Naturally, we all want to spend that to-day and to spend it on ourselves. Collectively we decide to spend £4,000,000,000 of it not on ourselves but on one another. That is our investment in society. Further, we decide to spend some £2,000,000,000 not on today but for to-morrow. That is our gross annual capital formation, our investment in property. Our expenditure on education comes to some £200,000,000. That is our investment in people. The total cost of running the universities is £30,000,000, of which the Exchequer, through the University Grants Committee, bears about £18,000,000. That is our investment in leadership. On knowledge we invest, through Government funds, some £16,000,000 a year, of which the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research accounts for about £5,500,000.
What the Command Paper to which I have referred pleads for is that the Department should be allowed to spend, with a certain measure of elasticity, an annual increase of about 5 per cent.—namely, £250,000 a year extra, until its affairs have reached what is regarded as a satisfactory condition having regard to
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its responsibilities. So one has to regard what is being asked for against the background of what we have. I cannot believe that that modest programme, together with the completion of the Department's building programme, at whatever maximum speed the nation can afford, is beyond our resources. This Department is a sort of cement: it unites the free research of the universities to the directed research of industry. It is an absolutely essential link in the chain, and we must not let it mark time through failing to provide it with the modest marginal sums that it requires. I know that the Lord President has these matters very much at heart, and I trust that in winding up this debate the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, will be able to give us an assurance that some real energy and drive will be directed to the completion of the Department's programme.
5.42 p.m.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, I know it will be your Lordships' first wish that on your behalf I should express to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, our pleasure at hearing a speech not only so felicitous but also so charmingly phrased. The arguments he so clearly put, and the chain of thought running through his whole speech, could not fail but give great promise and hope to your Lordships' House that in the future we shall hear the noble Earl frequently and for a long time. I say that, not with the intention that each individual speech of the noble Earl should be long, but in the recollection that the noble Earl's grandfather lived to the age of ninety-eight. He was a friend of my father, who in those days of the last century sat in the room of my noble friend, Lord Fortescue. For those personal reasons, it gives me great pleasure to speak after the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury.
I have a little purely personal crumb of comfort for the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, who not only stressed his own personal opinion that the supply of scientists should be increased, but referred to the White Paper recently published, which also made that point. I have no doubt that many noble Lords anticipated both his wish and the White Paper—certainly I did—about a quarter of a century ago. One of my children is, therefore, now on post-graduate research in physics. There is only one part of the noble Viscount's Motion to which I want to address myself,

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and that quite briefly, on part (a); and there is only one section of part (a) on which I want to make a point. I can claim no originality in this. My noble friend the Lord President of the Council has already mentioned the personnel research during the war, and has called for a closer alliance between science and industry, which was a point also touched on by the noble Viscount, Lord Hall. It is, therefore, not on materials, nor on processes, but on the human efficiency side that I want to say a few words.
Frankly, I do not like the phrase "personnel research." I do not like the word "personnel," but I have never had the wit to think out a better one. The phrase, "personnel research" suffers from some slight disability, too, in that it is a very vague one, and it is within the experience of many noble Lords that where you have vagueness you are apt, in the matter of human relations, to attract men of immense good will but of rather woolly minds. Therefore, I hope that the undeniable good which inheres in many branches of personnel research will suffer in no way from some of the more exuberant efforts, which are perhaps less scientific. As has already been said this afternoon, there were many notable examples of personnel research in the Fighting Services during the war. There, time was of the utmost importance, and an enormous number of our young men were working at the limits of human endurance and human capacity. Therefore there was a pressing need for research in order to adapt machines to the men. The margin between success and failure was very small, and the results of failure could be both dramatic and tragic. A life was always at stake. Even now we remember —indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Crook, has just referred to an incident in question—that jet aeroplanes cover roughly 1,000 feet per second, and, therefore, some error in judgment, or in the speed of judgment, shows how close we are to the limits of human capacity.
The amount of work in experimental psychology in the speed of reaction and the complexity of duties reached its zenith, I suppose, in the Royal Air Force. Without it our success in the air would, I imagine, have been gravely jeopardised. Of course, the other Fighting Services came into the picture. Those of your
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Lordships who served in the Navy will be able to reinforce that argument. We know that it came into endurance tests and a great many other tests in the Army, particularly in tanks. All this is past history, and I mention it only to show that where a strong, close link exists between our scientific team—in this case very largely the medical profession—and those who exist to carry knowledge into action, quick and good results can be achieved.
The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, and the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, among others, stressed that our future lay along the lines of the better use of new knowledge. The Fighting Services provide this good analogy with industry, but it is not a full analogy, for the reasons we know—namely, that the Fighting Services have their own medical branches. The medical branches had two functions. They lived with a complete knowledge of the Service conditions, and they had a large knowledge of their own profession. They could therefore interpret to the Fighting Services the opportunities which existed for setting a problem to the scientists and then later, when the scientists had done their best to solve that problem, they could put the solution back to the Fighting Services. It was an ideal combination which unfortunately we do not always get and cannot expect to get in industry. One or two noble Lords—I think the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, was amongst them—mentioned that whereas large units of industry had their own teams of scientists, that was not so with the smaller units. If my memory is right, the smaller units in industry (defined as those employing fifty and under) employ no less than 80 per cent. of the working population of the United Kingdom. It is to those smaller units particularly that we must address what words we can to incite them to set up such machinery as existed in the Fighting Services to get the good news across so that the solutions can be put into operation.
There is no counterpart of a medical service for industry, although some of the big units have their own medical officers. My hope, therefore, is that through the medium of the Press and Hansard, and through your Lordships' personal efforts in industry—in which so many of your Lordships engage—no opportunity will be lost of helping scientists, medical men and those in charge of units of industry to go out

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and "missionise" on this thought, so that even in the small units of industry they shall be aware (be it through D.S.I.R. publications or otherwise) of the great body of help which exists to solve the problems of industry and assist them to overcome difficulties arising in this instance from the human factor. Thus we shall finally be able to translate into terms of greater efficiency or less strain on the human all those endeavours which we must make for greater production, new production and greater export of those things which it is still open to us to export.
Those matters are based partly on a remark which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, made regarding the ethical question—the British character, which at no point in our lives, he it in factory or in school, can we afford to neglect. There are two other great assets which we need to exploit first, last and all the time—our minds and our bodies. It is in the practical application of scientific methods and new thought that I see a great hope for recovery in this nation. That was the only point which I wished to make.
5.54 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, as the first speaker on this side of the House since the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, I should like to join with the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, in congratulating him, I am sure, on behalf of all your Lordships, on a very worthy contribution to our debate and on having passed through that always difficult ordeal with great success. With the noble Earl opposite, I hope that we shall on many occasions have the benefit of Lord Halsbury's wide knowledge and experience.
I have sat through this interesting, if somewhat long-winded, debate, and I think the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, is the only one who has referred—and then only in passing—to science and scientists and the Fighting Services. If I may, I wish to address a few remarks to your Lordships on that question, which I think is of tremendous importance. It links up with the second part of the Motion of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. First of all, may I draw the attention of your Lordships to what I think is a rather curious fact, if my information is right. It is that on the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy—appointed, of course, by the last Government and to whose Report, to a certain extent, we have been
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directing our attention—so far as I can make out there is no representative of the Services or any scientist employed at the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Ministry or, what is even more important, the Ministry of Supply. The Ministry of Supply particularly are responsible for the research and scientific experiment for the three Services, yet, so far as I can make out, nobody is directly represented on the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy.
When I turn to the Committee on Manpower of the Advisory Council I should have thought that the Services were intimately and urgently concerned, but I see the same thing. So far as I can make out, there is nobody representing the Services or the Ministry of Supply. The Royal Botanical Gardens are represented; and the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Education and so on; and there is one representative of the Ministry of Defence. But there are no representatives of the Ministry of Supply or of the three Fighting Services. If my facts are right, I think that shows a curious gap somewhere. Again, when I look at the Percy Committee on Higher Technological Education, appointed by the Minister of Education in the previous Government, I find the same thing. I should have thought that the Services should be represented. They may have been—I do not know. There is nobody that I can identify as being concerned in advising the Board of Admiralty, the Air Council, the Army Council or, most important of all, the Ministry of Supply on scientific matters who appears to have been enrolled on that highly important Committee on Higher Technological Education. I think that is rather a pity.
I believe that I am right in stating that over the last half century, and, indeed, before that, there has always been a distinct time lag between invention and the development arid perfection of certain discoveries and their application to the Services, whether in their weapons, their equipment or their training. The noble and gallant Admiral of the Fleet, Lord Cork, is present, and I believe that he will bear me out. They have always had a tendency in both the older Services—the Air Force is comparatively new and I will exonerate them—to look backwards and to prepare their weapons, their training, their tactics and so on, from the lessons they learned in the previous war,

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and not to look ahead to what they will have to do in the case of the crowning misfortune of another war. I am going to quote two exact examples which apply to all the Services, except possibly the Air Force. One is the slowness in taking advantage of recent discoveries in rocket projectiles and methods of rocket firing and propulsion. Both the Navy and the Army have been far too slow in that respect. I think that the Navy, particularly, is still clinging too long to the heavy gun and not realising the tremendous potentialities of the guided rocket and similar weapons in the future. That is an example.
I believe that the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Supply are well served by most eminent scientists—men of very great standing in the scientific world—but they do not listen to them sufficiently. There remains a tendency in the Royal Navy, and still more in Her Majesty's Army, to regard scientists as gentlemen with long beards which they trip over occasionally, who are extremely absentminded and are generally "terrors." We should try to reach a much closer liaison between the scientific world and the Services. Until the Services begin to take greater advantage of the wonderful new inventions and the tremendously rapid developments in discovery which are taking place, there will be that time lag.
In this connection may I draw your Lordships' attention to the different procedure between the research organisation of the Ministry of Supply, for example, and the experimental work carried out by the corresponding body or bodies in the United States of America? There are advantages in both methods, but the differences, very briefly, are as follows. In the United States, when the Navy, the Army or the Marines want a new weapon, or a development of a weapon, for a particular purpose, or a special article of equipment, they turn to one or more of the great manufacturing concerns in the United States and tell them what they want and say, in effect, "Please produce this for us." These great manufacturing and contracting companies have their teams of highly paid, highly skilled and highly experienced scientists and technological officers, and they set to work to produce what is needed—the rocket or the land-
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ing craft, the piece of artillery or whatever it may be. And then, of course, having produced one that meets the requirements of the General Staff, they naturally expect to get the contract to make it—and generally do. By that method they get results in America rather faster than we do.
But of course there are disadvantages in the American method. It is a great advantage that they should get results quickly because in rearmament you have to be one jump ahead of the other man, otherwise your weapons become obsolescent very quickly. The British method is to employ directly the best people they can afford to pay and their own technicians trained in the various Services and in the experimental Department of the Ministry of Supply. They work out an experiment, try out the prototype, and eventually produce what they think is the best weapon or device or machine for the purpose required. Then they give it out to contract or to the ordnance factories. Undoubtedly the results are very fine; but the method is a slower one than that of the Americans. The disadvantage of the American method is that it is not so easy to arrange for any of America's associated Powers and Allies, members of N.A.T.O. and so on, to have the new designs; and, of course, the patent position enters into the matter—there are patent difficulties and so on.
At the same time, I have always understood that liaison between the Ministry of Supply, for example, and the research departments of the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Ministry, and their opposite numbers in the United States, is very close, and I am told that exchange of information is satisfactory—with, of course, for political reasons which we all understand, the one exception of the atomic bomb. Incidentally, I quoted the example of rockets but I think that the new rifle is another new weapon which has taken too long in development, and still longer in application. There are others also with which I will not detain your Lordships.
What is the remedy for this state of affairs as regards the Services? I will make a suggestion, though it may cause a little pain in some quarters. Take, for example, the Board of Admiralty. I think that one member of that Board at

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least should be a scientist of very high attainments. He might even be Fourth Sea Lord or the deputy of the Fourth Sea Lord. I do not know very much about the inner workings of the Army Council, but I suggest that there also a scientist of great eminence should be a member of the Army Council. That could be done by legislation. The same would apply to the Air Council.
I would go further and say that I hope that the present practice of having an eminent scientist in the Cabinet will always be followed in future Governments. In the last Cabinet we had a very learned man in the person of my late lamented friend, Lord Addison, who was a scientist of great reputation; and in the present Cabinet we have the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell. Some of my friends on this side may say that Lord Cherwell is a great scientist but that he does not seem to have done much good, judging by the performance and programme of the present Government. I would answer that if Lord Cherwell had not been there things might have been worse. I am delighted that there is one man of scientific attainments in the Cabinet and I hope that will always be the case. That is a matter of convention. I am reminded of the authorities of an American university who put up a notice to this effect:
"From the first day of next month it will be a legend of the university that nobody crosses the campus smoking a pipe."
I hope that it will become a convention that there should always be one member of the Cabinet who has had scientific training and who has great scientific attainments to his credit. If we have more than one, so much the better.
After all, there is a convention which applies even to the Woolsack. As your Lordships know, it is only in comparatively recent centuries, compared with the life of this venerable Assembly, that the Lord Chancellor has had to be a member of the legal profession. Even now he need not be a member of this House—he can be a Commoner. But, by convention, in recent centuries priests or laymen have not been appointed: the Lord Chancellor has for long been a member of the legal profession. But he need not be a lawyer at all. In the same way, one office—that of the Paymaster General, if you like, or even that of Lord
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President of the Council—should always be held in the Government by a man of scientific training and scientific attainments. It would be good that there should be such a man to bring the scientific approach to the problems of State.
I cannot close without thanking the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, for initiating this debate. I believe that it has already produced some results in the matter of the question of the ship-testing tanks which was mentioned by the Lord President of the Council. I hope that it will bring great results, and I hope that one of them will be to attract public attention to this highly important subject, and especially the attention of the leaders of industry and the leaders of the great trade unions.
6.9 p.m.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I should like to join the last speaker in congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, very heartily on his speech. It was a remarkable speech. I think it is the more a subject for congratulation, because of the many debates to which I have listened in this House I do not remember one in which the speeches as a whole were more remarkable. There is a rule—a very proper one, in my opinion—that members of either House of Parliament who are chairmen or members of Ministerial Committees do not speak on the subjects with which they are concerned. In taking part in this debate, I am slightly embarrassed by the fact that, continuously from 1939 onwards to this very day, I have been concerned on a voluntary basis, usually as chairman of Government Committees, on scientific matters covering an extremely wide range. The terms of the Motion, however, are so broad that, after consulting the highest authorities in the House, I believe I can say what little I want to say and steer a course between the Scylla of banality and the Charybdis of indiscretion.
After all this long association with science and technology, I am bound to look at the matter in rather wide perspective. I have been connected with it for many years. When in 1939 I became Minister without Portfolio and was given by Mr. Neville Chamberlain the task of putting science "on the map" in the war, we were at a comparatively low ebb and

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had to make a great number of improvisations. We could raise the personnel for radar, for instance, only by using the War-time powers to turn almost every young scientist at the universities into a man for radio-location (as we called it then), radar (as we call it now). We did produce these people for radar, and they numbered more than double Wellington's Army at Waterloo. They were trained for that purpose. It was a terrific trouble to get trained people who could teach others, and a matter of improvisation to get the apparatus—but it was all done.
Looking at the problem in that perspective, I am less pessimistic than some—perhaps your Lordships will say I am too optimistic. Ten years ago the Scientific Committee and the Engineering Committee of the Cabinet, of both of which I was Chairman, conducted full inquiries into the state of British science, and nearly all the criticisms that we hear to-day, many of which have been repeated, were raised then. We made all the recommendations we could to get things improved, and, whether because of that or in spite of it, matters have improved greatly, as we have heard to-day. It may be, as the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, said, that the nation is not as science-minded as it should be, but it is much more science-minded than it was. Parliament is much more science-minded than it was. This House in particular, and Governments, are very much more science-minded than they were. They have built up these great blocks of sciences, many of which have been spoken of to-day, in the Ministry of Supply and the Colonial Office—such bodies as the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research Council and the Agricultural Research Council. They really form a huge network of science and they are all doing most admirable work under the Government.
That is a matter which gives me some cause for optimism; and many of the things that we have heard to-day have given me similar cause for optimism. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, whom I most warmly congratulate on raising this question, mentioned some himself: the famous inventions, many of which have been really got going since 1939, which is my datum point—radar, which was
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brought to full fruition; atomic energy, and, in more recent days, the jet aeroplane, which has given us now a special lead in commercial aircraft. And then there is the tank. Tanks were a great and difficult problem during the war, as the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, will remember. Now there is the Centurion tank, which is constantly claimed to be the finest tank in the world. Those are no small achievements.
We have heard much to-day about the doubling of the output of the universities in science since the last war. That is a most important point. We should remember that that doubling has not yet taken full effect. It has taken partial effect, but people who come out of the universities are not really proved scientists or technologists as the case may be. They go into industry, and industry gives them a tremendous training after it gets them. I was in a large and important firm last Thursday, and I saw a great number of these young people who are rising up to the higher ranks. Some had started at the bottom and it had taken them six years to get through the various courses to the top rank. Others came in from technical colleges, public schools or grammar schools, probably with a national certificate, and it had taken them four years. Even the people from the universities had taken two years. This firm had a most admirable college through which it passed these young people and which did all the things which noble Lords have said ought to be done. They bring in a certain amount of the humanities and give them, of course, powerful technical courses as well. Therefore, we must not consider that double the numbers have been produced in five years, for the numbers that are coming out do not reach their full effect for some time.
We need at the present time more highly-trained scientists. We all know what happened in the war, when they were all taken away from their sciences and put into war jobs. We know why they are still rather hard to find. And we want people in the second rank too. These scientists will come before very long from the best of the people leaving the universities. We have heard of the large sums which have been given to the universities and the large sums given by the late Government. There is, more-

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over, the statement that the Lord President of the Council has made to-day as to what is going to be done. What I wish to say can be summed up in this way: we are not at the beginning of a new era; we began the new era at the beginning of the last war. We are in the middle of the new era, and these things necessarily take a long time to reach full maturity. But what has been done, and what is being done now in this middle stage, gives me great confidence that we shall pull through now as we have pulled through hitherto.
My Lords, I want to clear up, if I may, one point of comparative detail. It has not yet arisen in the debate but it may arise. It bears closely on the use made by industry of science, and it has been mentioned in this most valuable Fifth Annual Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy. The point is that in some of the White Papers that were published by the Technical Personnel Committee on the Supply and Demand for Persons with Professional Qualifications, it is stated that in connection with particular sciences and industries the realised demand exceeds the estimate of the Committee. As Professor Zuckerman's Report says,
"it is not surprising that several of the forecasts … need revision in the light of events."
In justification of the admirable, hardworking people who joined me in these inquiries, I would remind your Lordships that they began in 1948 or 1949, when the economic condition of the country was such that it was very difficult either for the Government or for industry to make accurate forecasts of full programmes or of what personnel would be required for them. Most of the criticised White Papers contained definite warnings on this subject, and with your Lordships' permission I will read one or two very short ones. The first I take from the Physics Inquiry, which was the first of the batch over which I myself presided, and the Report of which was dated November, 1948. It mentions
"the undoubted effect which changes in the general economic situation of the country would have on the estimates,"
and it states later
"with so many economic factors … the conclusions arrived at here are merely the best guess that can be made on the evidence available."
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They had got all the best estimates that the Government and industry could give them, and they recommended that
"while the subject is in this state of flux the position … should be kept under constant review."
Again, the Chemistry Inquiry, dated July, 1949, over which I also presided, emphasised and re-emphasised
"that all these estimates, more particularly on the demand side, are based on estimates which may be falsified by events."
The White Papers on Civil Engineering and Mechanical Engineering contained similar warnings, and the White Paper on Chemical Engineers advised a review of the supply and demand position after three years.
These White Papers gave warning of the change that might come about in the economic situation, and it has come about in this year, with the rearmament programme. Before these Reports were published in 1948 and 1949, no responsible authority in this country would or could say either that there would or would not be a rearmament programme, when it would be required, or of what it would consist. I had that in my mind the whole time, but there was not enough information available to enable anyone to say that a rearmament programme would be necessary or what would be required in it. I say that in order to justify the large number of distinguished people who devoted much time and gratuitous effort to these inquiries. I am not reflecting on anyone, and I am all in favour of this important factor being taken into consideration in the debate.
My next point, which in a way is also a subsidiary one, though of vast importance, I need not develop at any length, because it has already been dealt with by my noble friend Lord Waverley—I refer to the great importance of facilitating these publications. I wrote to the noble Lord, the Lord President of the Council, to warn him that I should be raising this matter, but Lord Waverley has made the point so fully that I need not elaborate it at all. I would just mention one point about agriculture. I think in this respect the ground is covered by the Imperial Agricultural Bureaux, This is a most interesting inter-Commonwealth organisation, which serves the needs of the United Kingdom and members of the Commonwealth and Empire and so admirable was it that it was adopted some few years ago

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by the United Nations. Therefore, I think it would be well worth while, if the noble Lord is looking into this question, just to inquire about that, because I think it is a very good model. I happen to have been associated with the reorganisation of that body in 1943, and therefore I know quite a lot about it.
There is a third point—namely, that I want to associate myself very strongly with the powerful appeal which was made by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, on May 21 on aid for undeveloped areas under the Colombo Plan and elsewhere in Asia. Although this does not sound as if it connects much with the Motion, it does in this respect, that these people must be obtained from the same sources as those required for industry, and they will have a very big effect ultimately on industry. After what I have said about the White Papers and difficulties arising in connection with the supply of skilled scientists and engineers, your Lordships may be rather surprised that I should support the plea for experts to go to the aid of distant countries. It is true, of course, that during the rearmament period there are some categories of personnel that cannot possibly he spared. But Lord Reading's plea was spread over a very wide field. He spoke of three kinds of technical assistance, first of bringing personnel home to this country for training from countries of the area. I saw that method at work a week ago in the college of a big firm that I visited. There were numbers of these people in that college, and it seemed to be working very well. His next point was that we should send out from here specialists to assist on the spot. Then there was the provision of technical equipment, as well as helping methods of instruction in these countries, in schools, technical colleges, laboratories and so forth.
If I may say so, Lord Reading rightly insisted on the advantages of these schemes from the international and humanitarian points of view, which I think are unrivalled. But in passing he mentioned also that the Colombo Plan countries already took 20 per cent. of our exports of machinery, with values of £53,500,000 in 1949–50 and £58,000,000 in 1951. Of course, that means a good deal in the way of replacements and spare parts in future years.
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What of the good will and contacts established both by sending emissaries on long-term or short-term assignments, and in entertaining their young people in our universities, colleges and homes? On a long view, I believe that our civil servants, industrialists, scientists, engineers, medical experts and, especially, university professors and teachers have a unique opportunity, now and for the next few years, of making a great contribution in laying the foundations of prosperity, not only for the distressed regions but also for this country and for the world. I hope that we shall receive some wider publicity for this subject not only in the technical and scientific world but, if possible, in the public Press and broadcasting systems.
I am not going to speak on the problem of technology because others much more competent to deal with it have already said more than I could. But I wish to speak, for a few minutes only, on the subject of a science, or perhaps I should say a science and art, which has received no notice so far—that is the science and art of co-ordination. Co-ordination of the sciences is most tremendously important. It has been built up, I think, very much on the lines of the system evolved by the Committee of Imperial Defence over fifty years. It consists, I think, under the Lord President of the Council, and certainly below Cabinet level, of two high-level Committees, the Defence Research Policy Committee, which is of course in close liaison with the Chiefs of Staff and the Ministry of Defence, and the Advisory Council on Defence Policy, for the civilian side of science and technology. Both have appropriate sub-committees, and through them, or otherwise, are linked up with the great blocks of science which I have already mentioned under the different Departments; and through those groups they link up, again, with a vast range of industry which also has its great blocks of sciences and technologies.
Under the wise guidance of Sir Henry Tizard, that system has reached a high state of efficiency. But—and this is my real point—on the analogy of the Committee of Imperial Defence there is one point lacking in the scheme—namely, anything corresponding to the Imperial Defence College. The Imperial Defence College has spread all over the place The system has been adopted by the

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United States of America and now by N.A.T.O. Lord Ismay told me two days ago that he was just about to open—on this very day, I think—the second course of the corresponding college of N.A.T.O., which has been a great success. I venture to submit to your Lordships and to the Government that there is much to be said for a super-post-graduate (I apologise for coining such a horrible term) college for science and technology on the lines of the Imperial Defence College, and of the Administrative Defence College at Henley, the latter being run by private industries.
There, carefully selected scientists and technologists of the middle ranks would meet for a year or so, as do the officers of the three Fighting Services—and now also of N.A.T.O.—to teach and learn from one another all about their respective sciences and technologies. But on the Imperial Defence College and Henley analogies, they would not meet alone; nor would they meet for that purpose only; they would meet in a varied circle drawn from other professions and walks of life—administrators, industrialists, bankers, civil servants, diplomats, trade unionists, maybe representatives of the Fighting Services (who invite scientists to their colleges) and representatives of universities, including the humanities and technical colleges. I believe that that would give them a sabbatical year which would be well spent.
With minds broadened by this experience, these men, like the graduates of the Imperial Defence College, would, I believe, provide some of the leaders and many of the thinkers of the scientific world in the days to come. From among them would often be nominated directors—men with a broad outlook—of those great groups of science and technology which are so remarkable a product of the scientific renaissance of modern times. In a few years they would provide the nucleus of personnel available for those purposes, and they would provide a powerful addition of scientific strength to modern Governments. And very soon you will find that, as in the case of the Imperial Defence College, it will be copied by other countries internationally and nationally. This idea, which I published in a lecture last autumn, had a very sympathetic reception by The Times and Nature and other newspapers.
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It would be premature to ask the Government for a reply to-day, but it would be interesting to obtain some impression of your Lordships' sentiments towards the idea.
6.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I welcome very strongly the statement which has been made by the noble Lord, the Lord President of the Council, about the decision which the Government have now taken on the future of technological education. I hope that the new technical university which is to be set up will not be started from scratch, but will be based on one of our present universities—perhaps the Imperial College in London, or one of the great Midland universities. But, as I say, I welcome very strongly the fact that the decision has at last been taken. If I may take a point concerning the decision which was made by the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley—though I hesitate to question anything that one of his experience says—I should like to sound a note of warning about the question of allowing technical colleges to confer degrees and making them straight away into full-blown universities. I hope that I shall not be accused of being a "dog in the manger" over this degree question but I feel that the whole prestige of the degree is that it has something of its own to offer. If we merely turn technical colleges into universities because we want more people to have degrees, then the degree is debased. But if the technical colleges are turned into universities because they have earned it, and the men there have earned it, that surely is the way it should be done. If it is done in that spirit I would welcome the move wholeheartedly.
If I may, I will also take up a point which the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, made. I did not altogether understand him, but I think he said that so far as engineering was concerned, universities were not facing up to their responsibilities. I am sorry that the noble Viscount is not here now, but I shall read his remarks with great interest in Hansard tomorrow. I can speak with any real knowledge only of my own University of Cambridge. I do not think anyone can say that Cambridge has failed to meet its responsibilities, so far as engineering is concerned. The number of students taking engineering is increasing. I have

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not the figures with me, but I think there has been an increase of at least 50 per cent. since pre-war days. One of the reasons why the figure cannot be increased further at the moment is lack of buildings, such as laboratories; but the situation in that respect is already being improved. I shall speak a little later on about the new courses which have been started recently in the University.
There is no doubt that there is a great variation in industry in the use made of scientific knowledge. It is sometimes assumed that the small firms are the only ones that do not make proper use of scientific knowledge. I should like to suggest to the Lord President that sometimes the big firms fail to do so. In the universities we hear too often of first-class engineering graduates who go to a big firm and whose training and experience are not properly used. Either they hang on and hope for better times, or they leave that firm and become lost to the industry altogether. In either case, all the training and the work which has gone into their teaching is largely lost. I think that is an important point, and I hope the noble Lord will consider that when he is exhorting industry to make proper use of scientists. This country has often been compared with America and it has already been made clear, both in the debate to-day and in the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, how different is the outlook of management in America. Already there is a change in this country. I am sure that the action which the Government propose to take will accelerate the movement that has already started, to bring engineering graduates and others with technical education to positions in the board room more rapidly, and to give them a fairer share than has been the case in the past.
It has also been suggested, in this House and elsewhere, that the universities could quite easily expand the number of technological graduates they produce. I believe that if that policy were to have any success, it would be necessary to tap new sources of supply from which the students would come. My impression is that the tail-end of students is not of a high standard, and that if an attempt were made to bring in more it would simply mean that the weak tail would get longer. I believe that a good deal
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of propaganda is necessary in the schools, just as it is in management, to overcome the old-fashioned idea that a man with a technical education is not educated although a man who has had a classical education, with no science, is. I am sure that much could be done by propaganda in the schools to encourage boys to think that a technological career is a first-class career, as good as one in what is normally called business, which will reward them with as great responsibilities and as good jobs.
Your Lordships will remember that a year or two ago the University Grants Committee supported post-graduate courses in certain universities. At Cambridge the first of these courses is just coming to an end. The numbers have been small but the course has been an undoubted success. In its own sphere of structures and materials it has certainly provided all that industry wants. The men came from industry and had several years experience in industry, and they will soon be returning to their firms. They will not be full of academic ideas but will go back keen to apply their new practical knowledge to their everyday jobs. I believe that the courses are economical, because the facilities which they require are almost always already in existence. They are economical in manpower, because only men whom industry itself thinks will benefit from the courses take part in them. Some people think it is disgraceful that the universities should take part in anything so practical and immediately useful, but to some of us the courses indicate the new way in which the universities can serve the nation without damage to the old ideals.
These courses, however, cannot succeed unless they are backed up by industry. I will give one example of the difficulties. One great national engineering organisation admits the advantage of these courses, but out of all their great organisation they cannot spare a single man to come. That is the sort of attitude we have to get over and I have no doubt that the Lord President's exhortations will do a great deal to get over it. Now that decisions have been taken, I hope that the foundation of this new university, the alterations of the conditions of the technical colleges, and the encouragement of a new outlook in industry and in the schools, will be pressed forward

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with the utmost energy, for, as all speakers have said, our very life-blood depends on it. May I end by saying how much I feel we owe to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, who moved this Motion to-day, and not least for his reminder that technology and science are neither the end of all nor the most important thing in life?
6.47 p.m.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, who has just resumed his seat, on one point, and on one point only. I know he has a train to catch and I give him full absolution if he wishes to depart. I agree that we are all grateful to my old friend Viscount Samuel for introducing this Motion and for recruiting a double cricket eleven to support him. I can support him only as a layman. I feel rather more optimistic to-day than when we debated this subject before. So long ago as 1924 I tried to rouse greater interest in technical education by writing to the Press, and only on Saturday I was glad to learn that the technical college in whose administration I have taken part for many years has now 2,000 students on the books—500 day students and 1,500 part-time students, studying in eleven departments. If the Lord President of the Council is interested in what he called "sordid details," I may say that I have looked up the insurance policy of the college and I find that the buildings are insured for £1,000,000. I hope that the Lord President has read the findings of the Committee on Education of the Association of Municipal Corporations. Has the noble Lord seen it?
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I have not had the pleasure, but I shall be very glad if the noble Lord will give it to me.
LORD CALVERLEY: If the noble Lord would allow me to hand it over to him when the House adjourns, I should like him to read it. I should like him to realise that the Committee unanimously support the Lord President.
LORD WOOLTON: Good! I certainly will read it.
LORD CALVERLEY: The Committee support what they call an evolutionary change, with a central college of technology. This is where I disagree with the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote. We
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have to start from scratch. I do not think the noble Viscount realises the incontestable evidence that we are always a generation behind in our encouragement of technical and technological education. I do not think it is fair to this House to read extracts from this document, but I should have liked to see them in Hansard.
The Lord President gave me a text. He talked about insatiable curiosity. There was a former member of this House whom I knew as a boy, who was tilled with insatiable curiosity, and because he had money he was able privately to invent what was called a wool comb to deal with mohair, which was a revolution. A friend of his was a Member of the other place later, and his son sat in this House. One invented the Lister comb, and the other the Holden comb. Lister put the whole of the world in his debt by finding a method to make use of what was silk waste, turning it into what we call velveteen, in which noble Lords' ladies are going to be beautifully arrayed at the Coronation. All that will be really thanks to Samuel Cunliffe-Lister, whose grandson has been sitting in this House this afternoon. Those men did it out of insatiable curiosity. Lord Masham was so full of gratitude to another man filled with insatiable curiosity, who was a parson in Kent, that he gave up the whole of his ancestral abode. He said: "Pull it down, and let us have a monument to Doctor Cartwright," who was the country parson who invented the power loom. Again it was due to research. I believe the doctor was a doctor of philosophy, and not of science. Lord Masham said: "This monument shall be called the Cartwright Hall," and that is what it is called to-day. He spent a great deal of money on it, in gratitude to the parson who had made it possible for him to make a fortune.
The point I want to make is that, so far as this country was concerned, what we call research, like Topsy, "sort of growed up"; and we cannot afford to leave it to do that to-day. We have to canalise our scientific endeavour. In passing, I would say that I was very glad to listen to the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley. At this college of ours, with its 2,000 students, we recruit young people at, say, sixteen years of age, when they have had an all-round education, part of

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it higher education—because the education authority on which I served was the first to put all it knew into higher education and make it free for all. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, is to blame for my talking like this. He mentioned Edward Appleton. His mother and father are neighbours of mine, and Sir Edward Appleton went to the school of whose committee I happen to be a member—we could not call ourselves governors. I could mention other men and women who have come from those schools, but I must not delay your Lordships at this late hour by talking too much about that.
We had a problem to deal with 25,000,000 gallons of sewage every day. We had engineers who had failed in what they wanted to do. So we took the advice, not of Lord Cherwell, but perhaps of one of his colleagues, and we got a pure scientist and said to him: "Apply your science, and see if you can conquer our problem." We said: "Get cracking," because what he had to do was to crack the sewage. The result was that he did it. That is where I agree with Lord Cherwell when he says that if we are to have pure scientists with physics degrees, we must have men who can apply their science inside the laboratory and who can also come outside of it. It is now four minutes to seven o'clock, which some people tell me is our bed time, but I tell them that we do not go to bed before eight. I want to get back to this point. I was looking at the report regarding the "cracking" of the sewage, and I find that since we had this pure-minded chemist to go into the impurities and save money for the ratepayers we have a balance sheet of £4,500,000. Next year, being Coronation Year, we hope to have £124,000 surplus, because we have a very valuable by-product of our sewage, which is called—well, I do not know what it is called, but I know your Lordships' ladies use it frequently in order to beautify their complexions.
For my sins, I did go through the symposium which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, was good enough to send me for my holiday task this Whitsuntide, and I found that we have to pay a great tribute to the large firms. But the country is made up of many small firms. We are advised that there must be a collective
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effort in order to help these small firms. In the place from which I come we produced Edward Appleton. As a boy I went up the street where Delius's father's place still is, although the old chap is now dead. "There is the warehouse; get into it," he said to Delius. But Delius said: "I will not. I am going to learn music." Well, he did a great job of work; he became a great master of music. We have to help the small firms, and the way to do it is to have technical colleges, but not to deny incentive, as the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, suggests—he knows what I am going to say—by saying that these fellows should never go for a degree. I think the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, said that after they have studied for three or four years, a degree in technology is far better than a pass degree at, say, Oxford.
LORD PAKENHAM: Or Cambridge.
LORD CALVERLEY: No; Cambridge is more scientific minded. I do not want to have controversy with the noble Lord on the Opposition Front Bench.
LORD PAKENHAM: On that subject you must have it with the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell.
LORD CALVERLEY: I am not going to quarrel with my bread and butter. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, is going to reply. I want to get on. I wish to touch upon textiles for a minute or two. We have always done best in the days of adversity. When we had the McKinley tariff to jump over, we did it. We started a development scheme in textiles, and the income is now £200,000 a year. I should like to know how that money is being dispensed and whether our own college, and similar colleges in Huddersfield and Halifax, are benefiting from that £200,000. Without going to poor Mr. Butler, who is at his wits' end just now, we have here money which we ought to spend in the proper way. I hope that the Lord President, without being sordid—
LORD WOOLTON: I hope that I did not say that I was sordid.
LORD CALVERLEY: I agree that the Lord President is not sordid but he said that he was talking of sordid matters. The Lord President puts such a silver lining on the most sordid things that we think

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he is presenting us with another golden opportunity. I want to assure the Government that we are a bit "fed up." Great technical institutions have been looked upon as if they were of the Lazarus clan, and can get only the crumbs from the Universities Grants Committee. They are like the favourite parson of the late President Coolidge who said of sin that he was "agin it." So are they "agin" these technical institutions, and if there is a vested interest to look after the universities they will go on being "agin" them.
The point I am trying to make is that some of the great technical institutions of this country are suffering from a sense of frustration. I myself started in an optimistic way in 1924, and I am not filled with gloom. The noble Lord, the Lord President of the Council, fills me with a great sense of happiness in looking forward to brighter times for our technical colleges. We want these men or women in our chemistry departments in the textile trade. If they can prove that they are worthy of a degree they should not be fobbed off with a certificate, or something like that. I have had to cut down what I wanted to say to your
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Lordships, but I ask the Government not to take this debate—as I am sure they will not—simply as another debate but to follow the advice of the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley. I have listened to all the noble Viscount's Budget speeches, and he always had the same peroration: "Mr. Speaker, Sir, the same mixture as before," when he had given us a heavy dose of taxation. But this afternoon I believe that he is on the side of the angels. I believe that the Lord President is on the side of the angels, and I am certain that in the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, the Paymaster General (I know him of old) the technical colleges have a firm friend for the development of applied science.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Wise I beg to move that this debate be now adjourned.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.
House adjourned at five minutes past seven o'clock.