Sitting of 29 July 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  NORTH WALES HYDRO-ELECTRIC POWER BILL
  Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to Order [25 th July], and agreed to.
  PRESTON CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  DUNDEE HARBOUR AND TAY FERRIES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BRITISH ARMY

    Military Service (German Subject)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement on the circumstances in which a German, Herbert Kosemund, served for two years in the British Army as Private Edmunds; whether he has now been discharged; how much back pay he has claimed; and whether this claim has been approved and the money paid.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head): This man was enlisted as Private Edmonds at Liverpool on 10th November, 1950, on a Regular Army engagement of 12 years. It is now clear that on attestation he gave false information of his name, nationality, country, place of birth, and the age and nationality of his parents. This was found out on 7th September last year. He has made no claim for arrears of pay.
    Mr. Driberg: Without knowing any more about this case than the right hon. Gentleman has just told us, may I ask him whether he can give the House a
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    few more particulars about this rather surprising case? Was the man a good soldier, for example?
    Mr. Head: I think that this man did perfectly adequate service. He made no claim for arrears of pay because I think he was aware that, by and large, from the fact that he was not subsequently brought to trial he was reasonably leniently treated.

    Middle East (Home Leave)
    Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War how many officers and how many of other ranks have now taken home leave from the Middle East, paying for their own air passages; and to what extent the existence of this arrangement prevents him from extending the grounds on which compassionate home leave may be granted.
    Mr. Head: Special arrangements have been made to enable officers and other ranks of the Services and their families to fly home direct from the Canal Zone to this country at their own expense. I cannot give the numbers who came home privately before the scheme started on 9th July, but since it did so 62 Army officers and 57 other ranks had reached this country by 22nd July. The limiting factor in extending the qualification for compassionate leave is not the availability of aircraft.
    Mr. Driberg: If there is even this amount of surplus air space available, is it not rather wrong that it should go only to those men and officers who are fortunate enough to be able to pay their own fares home? Would it not be better even to consider a secondary category of compassionate leave for cases slightly less urgent than the most urgent ones?
    Mr. Head: The amount of air space available is dependent on the extent of orders we give to charter companies in the contract for trooping. With regard to the question of a less urgent type of compassionate leave, our problem in considering compassionate leave is to have a really definite regulation so that we can say that if qualified a man has it and if not he does not get it. To judge the merits of less urgent cases would put an immense task on the administrative machine.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Are there any stipulations made about the length of time that the officers and other ranks concerned have to serve in the Middle East before they can have this sort of leave? Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the free leave to Cyprus is really no substitute for United Kingdom leave?
    Mr. Head: Yes, I am well aware that leave to Cyprus is no substitute for United Kingdom leave. A definite period has to be served in the Middle East before a man is qualified or eligible to apply for leave to the United Kingdom.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Do they have to pay the full civil rate for air passage, or less?
    Mr. Head: Less.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: How much less?
    Mr. Head: Speaking off-hand, I think the fare is £47 return.

    Gift Parcels (N.A.A.F.I. Stocks)
    Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if, in order to save heavy postage on parcels, he will institute a scheme under which the Navy, Army and Air Force Institute will hold in this country a stock of goods of the kinds most commonly sent home by men serving in Korea, Malaya, and the Middle East, and will deliver them to addresses in this country when Service men order and pay for them at the Navy, Army and Air Force Institute's shops in those theatres.
    Mr. Head: I doubt whether a scheme of this kind would be popular or justified, since I understand that the men overseas generally send home goods of local origin and prefer to choose themselves.
    Mr. Driberg: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that cases have frequently been raised in the House of parcels on which very heavy postage has to be paid, and sometimes also dues on delivery at home? This suggestion would get round that difficulty. Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise also that this is simply, in reverse, the scheme he has accepted from the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke)?
    Mr. Head: I am aware that this is the scheme in reverse. I am quite prepared to ask commands if they think it is worth while. The difficulty is that N.A.A.F.I. would have to have available in this country a bulk store of curios from Korea, Malaya and Hong Kong.
    Miss Burton: Would the right hon. Gentleman at the same time consult with the Chancellor to see if anything can be done about the very heavy duty that has to be paid on these parcels? It is a real source of embarrassment to their families.
    Mr. Head: We have had a great deal of discussion with the Excise authorities on this particular subject, and I think we have done the best we possibly can, but I should be glad to discuss the matter with the hon. Lady. I can assure her that we have had long discussions about it.

    Civilian Storekeepers, Singapore
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the civilian storekeepers of the War Department, Singapore, have been waiting over two years to have their claims considered by his Department; that reminders were sent to him on 12th October, 1951, 13th May, 1952, and a third one last week to the Command Secretary, General. Headquarters, Singapore, that this protracted delay is causing a feeling of frustration among the workers; and what action he is taking to deal with this long standing problem.
    Mr. Head: Discussions and negotiations to settle this matter have been going on between all three Services and the trade unions concerned. The matter is not, therefore, solely in my hands, but I am trying to hurry it up.
    Mr. Awbery: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I received a communication from the union concerned a few days ago telling me that they presented him with a memorandum two years ago, and three reminders, and that 14 days ago negotiations had not been started? Will he do all he possibly can to hurry the negotiations, because this delay creates an amount of frustration that is difficult to handle in a place like that?
    Mr. Head: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the negotiations were

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    started a great deal longer than a fortnight ago. As I understand it, a great deal of the discussion is concerned with when a civilian storekeeper is not a civilian storekeeper. I can assure the hon. Gentleman I am trying to hurry it up.

    W.D. Book, Plymouth Library
    Mr. Footasked the Secretary of State for War on what grounds his Department proposes to keep in its possession a volume recently borrowed by his Department from the Plymouth Libraries and Museums Committee.
    Mr. Head: This book is War Office property and strayed to the Plymouth Library. In view of the circumstances in which it was recaptured it will be returned to Plymouth on indefinite loan.
    Mr. Foot: Would it not have been more courteous if the War Office had sent that reply in the first place, instead of telling the Plymouth Libraries Committee, from whom it had seized this book, that it had been decided by the War Office that it was going to hang on to it?
    Mr. Head: The War Office asked no questions as to how it got to the Plymouth Library.

    Plymouth Hoe (Land Title)
    Mr. Footasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the title to the land on Plymouth Hoe which his Department holds on behalf of the Commissioners of Crown Lands has often been disputed by authorities in Plymouth; and why he refused to initiate negotiations with the Commissioners of Crown Lands with a view to restoring this property to its proper owners.
    Mr. Head: No, Sir, I know of no grounds for disputed ownership in this case.
    Mr. Foot: This case is rather like the book case. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Plymouth Hoe was taken from the people of Plymouth by a Stuart King; that the people of Plymouth have never received one brass farthing for it; and that the War Office, therefore, is in the position of a receiver of stolen goods? What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do about it?
    Mr. Head: I am aware that, so far as the War Office is concerned, we propose to face the future.
    Mr. Foot: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say he is not going to make any inquiry about this matter at all? It does give rise to frequent difficulties, for whenever it is proposed that some change be made on the Hoe the people of Plymouth have got to argue with a Department that has got no right to be there at all.
    Mr. Head: If the hon. Gentleman will bring to my attention any matter which is disputed regarding the ownership of this land I shall be only too glad to look into it.

    Personal Cases
    Mr. Goughasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will reinstate Mr. Christmas in his post as general handyman at the Royal Engineers Camp at Fernhurst in view of his 11 years of satisfactory service.
    Mr. Head: No, Sir. I am afraid I have no choice in this matter.
    Mr. Gough: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his full and helpful reply, may I ask him if he realises that this decision is in sharp contradiction to the reply made by the Minister of Labour to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) on 1st July? Does he, further, agree that his action, far from showing any saving, is really adding a burden to the Exchequer, as Mr. Christmas will now be thrown on to National Assistance?
    Mr. Head: I am aware of the position of Mr. Christmas, and I feel considerable sympathy for him, but the fact remains that the War Department's industrial agreement with the trades union states quite definitely the action we have to take in this particular case of redundancy, and, short of tearing up the agreement, I do not see what I can do to help Mr. Christmas.
    Mr. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for War why a National Service man suffering from deafness was discharged from the Army a week before his Parliamentary Secretary stated in a letter, dated 11th July, to the hon. Member for Ladywood that the soldier wished to continue in the Army and that consideration

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    was being given as to how he could best be employed; and why two months were allowed to lapse before action was taken in this matter.
    Mr. Head: I regret that the wires became crossed in this case. I can, however, now confirm that this man will be discharged from 5th August, and I will write to the hon. Member giving him the full story of what has happened.
    Mr. Yates: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that after I received the letter to which I refer in my Question the man came to see me to inform me that he had been discharged, and showed me his papers: is there not, therefore, something wrong; and will the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to see that there is more efficiency in the Department, as it places Members of Parliament in a very serious position when they get information of this kind?
    Mr. Head: When my hon. Friend wrote to the hon. Gentleman instructions had been sent out at the same time that, if possible, this man was to be retained in the Army, as was his wish, but at almost that identical date a medical board sat and discharged the man from the Army. The two events coincided. If I could have a word with the hon. Member I think I could explain it to him. It is extremely difficult to find a job in the Army for a man who is so deaf.
    Mr. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now re-examined the case of 916925 Gunner C. D. Yates, Royal Artillery, reported missing for 10 years; if he has considered additional evidence sent to him on 10th June; and if he will now presume the death of Gunner Yates and pay a widow's pension to Mrs. Yates accordingly.
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir, but unfortunately the additional evidence, which tends to show that Gunner Yates was last seen on board a ship sailing to Australia, does not help very much. In all the circumstances, however, I have now decided to presume death. The question of a widow's pension is for consideration by my hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions.
    Mr. Yates: May I express my personal appreciation of the answer by the Minister?

    Military Academy, Sandhurst (Incidents)
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War the number of admissions to hospital as a result of the recent disorder at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst; and the length of stay in hospital of the patients concerned.
    Mr. Head: Five, Sir. Two for two days and the others for three, six and 14 days, respectively.
    Mr. Wigg: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what disciplinary action was taken in connection with these disorders which caused damage to public property and caused the admission of men to hospital? Or do we take it that it is his fixed policy that disciplinary action is taken only when it falls, not on the Military Academy, but other branches of the Service?
    Mr. Head: I will admit that during this particular jubilation the cadets were rather rough. They were addressed subsequently by the Commandant, and were told they had been too rough. At the same time, I do not think that on an occasion like this we can expect them to sit in the mess after dinner reading Clausewitz or knitting.
    Mr. Wigg: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether any disciplinary action was taken, and, if not, why not'?
    Mr. Head: I have absolute faith in the Commandant of this institution.
    Mr. Wigg: May I have an answer to my question? Was disciplinary action taken, and, if not, why not?
    Mr. Head: If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question I will find out.
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes, but why does the right hon. Gentleman brush this matter aside as though it were of no consequence? After all said and done, if action has occurred of a disorderly character—[Laughter]—and, presumably, there was some disorder; the right hon. Gentleman has himself admitted it—
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: It has been going on for 100 years.
    Mr. Shinwell: —are we to understand that disorder, which has been tolerated for nearly 100 years, must still be tolerated because it applies to cadets? Would the same treatment be applied to other ranks?
    Mr. Head: These occasions of jubilation do sometimes tend to disorder, and I believe it has even occurred in this House—
    Mr. Shinwell: But here there is discipline.
    Mr. Head: —but what I would point out is this, that it is traditional in this establishment—and I do not think it causes much harm—that there is certain jubilation towards the end of each term. It has occurred in the past, and, indeed, I myself have taken part in it. I think that on this particular occasion the cadets were unduly rough, but I have no doubt that, in the light of the Commandant's address, that will not occur next year.
    Major Beamish: Can my right hon. Friend say how many times the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), who asked this Question, would have been put into the lake if he had been at Sandhurst?
    Mr. Wigg: Is it the fact that because the right hon. Gentleman has taken part in these jubilations he now protects the perpetrators of what, after all, was an outrage and breach of discipline? Consider the consequences of their action. What I want to establish is this. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether there are to be two rules, one for his class and one for mine?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that he can be quite certain that in this particular jubilation there were a great many representatives of all classes, as there are at Sandhurst today.

    Officers (Education)
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers, other than quartermasters, serving in the Brigade of Guards and the Household Cavalry, who were educated at Eton, Harrow and grant-aided schools other than those represented at the Headmasters Conference, respectively.
    Mr. Head: Two hundred and seventy-five, 45 and three respectively.

    Fête, Isleworth (Coldstream Guards)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that on 19th July at a fête organised in aid of
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    various organisations, including the Heston and Isleworth Conservative Association, there were performances by the band of the Coldstream Guards and other displays by a contingent from the same regiment; and what regulations have been made dealing with such participation by Army units in affairs organised wholly or partly in aid of political parties.
    Mr. Head: This engagement was accepted by the band of the Coldstream Guards on the understanding that this was a charity fête which had no political significance. The attendance of the band is governed by Queen's Regulations, paragraphs 541 and 1434, and is also dealt with in an Army Council Instruction.
    Mr. Beswick: But does the Secretary of State agree that this could not have been an entirely charitable affair since the Conservative Party stood to benefit from it? After all, though I know these regulations have been in force some years, would not the Secretary of State now agree it may be reasonable to have a look at an arrangement which compels men in uniform to go to help to collect money for political objects with which they disagree?
    Mr. Head: I understand that this fête was held for the National Lifeboat Institution, the Scouts, the local church, etcetera, and I have seen the letter received by the Coldstream Guards, which gave a specific undertaking that it was not for political purposes. I cannot tell what actually happened at the fête because I was not there.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not rather unfortunate that the "etcetera" includes the Heston and Isleworth Conservative Association, which on the sale of programmes stood to benefit from this attendance by the Army.
    Mr. Head: All I have seen is the application from this fate for this band, and a definite undertaking that it was nonpolitical in character was given in the letter, and, therefore, I think there was justification for accepting it.
    Mr. R. Harris: Would my right hon. Friend make it clear that the usual commercial fee of over 100 guineas was paid for the performance of this band; that

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    the Spring Grove Conservative Association contributed materially to the success of this fête, which was in aid of a dozen well known charities; and that the Association profited to the extent of only £40—a trivial sum compared to the total amount raised of over four figures?

    Shropshire Light Infantry, Korea (Leave)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for War when the Shropshire Light Infantry Battalion, now on duty at the Koje Island prison camp, will embark for Great Britain; and whether these men will be given leave on arrival in this country.
    Mr. Head: The company which was on duty at Koje Island rejoined this battalion on 10th July. This unit will probably embark for this country about 19th September. On arrival, the men will be qualified for leave, including the special Korean service leave.

    Catering (Plums)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to increase consumption of plums and plum products in the Army including plum and apple jam; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Head: The Army has done long and meritorious service in the consumption of plum and apple. I do not wish variety to be sacrificed in the cause of plum consumption but, as things are, the Army, in co-operation with the Royal Air Force, will consume in the next year some 2,425 tons of plum jam and 400 tons of tinned plums.
    Mr. Nabarro: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the consumption figure that he has indicated for the next 12 months has been related to the exceptionally heavy plum crop this year; and would it not be reasonable to ask him to swim in the stream with his Ministerial colleagues and place special contracts for plums and plum products in order to help the growers?
    Mr. Head: There are other hon. Members interested in other types of fruit.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the Secretary of State consider setting up in this nationalised industry a consumers' council?
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the First World War what was called plum and apple jam was actually neither plum nor apple?

    "Other Ranks"
    Mr. M. MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will bring to an end the official use of the phrase, "other ranks," in view of the fact that it expresses its meaning only indirectly.
    Mr. Head: No, Sir.
    Mr. MacPherson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the Dominions has already dropped this phrase? Will he recollect that at this hour last week he objected to a particular title because it was neither descriptive nor inspiring and can he imagine any phrase which is less descriptive and less inspiring? Will he not at least follow the example already set him overseas?
    Mr. Head: If the hon. Gentleman has any specific suggestion I should be glad to consider it, but this phrase does cover a very large number, from warrant officers, N.C.Os. privates and women to boys, and we want some all-embracing term to describe them.
    Mr. MacPherson: Is not that the objection to this phrase, that 80 or 90 per cent. of the personnel of the Army are described by a phrase which simply says that they are not the other 10 or 20 per cent.; and is not there something rather derogatory about that?

    Infantry Recruits (Training)
    Brigadier Prior-Palmerasked the Secretary of State for War what periods of training are now given to infantry recruits before they go overseas.
    Mr. Head: At the present time infantry recruits going to Europe receive a minimum of six weeks' training in this country; those going to the Middle East receive 10 weeks; and those for the Far East and Korea 16 weeks. These varying arrangements for training establishments in this country have not been altogether satisfactory, and we have decided to introduce a standard 10 weeks' period for all infantry recruits.
    All recruits going to the Far East and Korea will receive an additional six weeks' training, as before, to bring the total up

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    to 16 weeks, but it will be carried out overseas. In Malaya this will have the dual advantage of more realism in jungle training and a longer period of acclimatisation before men undertake active service in those theatres.
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that reply will give very great satisfaction indeed?
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman regard it as wise to send men, for example, to Malaya, where there is jungle warfare, with only 10 weeks' training in this country?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir. I think that on the whole it is better for a man to go with 10 weeks' training in this country and have a regular course of six weeks' jungle training in Malaya, rather than have that extra six weeks in this country under very unrealistic circumstances, without experiencing local conditions.
    Mr. Wigg: Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether they have jungle training at Sandhurst?

    Closed Path, Blackdown
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War whether he authorised the Officer Commanding No. 4 Training Battalion, Royal Army Ordnance Corps, to close a right of way between the married quarter at Blackdown and the main shopping area; and what answer has been returned to the petition of protest which has been presented to the officer commanding troops by the married families concerned.
    Mr. Head: There is no public right of way. The path was closed because of children causing serious damage to the barracks and to the garden of the war memorial. The officer commanding troops, Blackdown, has replied to the petition, explaining the reasons for the action of the commanding officer of this unit.
    Mr. Wigg: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether any disciplinary action was taken against the soldiers of the wives who made the protest?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir, not so far as I know. I would point out to the hon. Gentleman, who is interested in these
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    matters, that the children broke 32 windows, broke into the paint shop and rolled pots of paint down the hill.

    Officers' Emergency Reserve
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for War the present strength of the Army Officers' Emergency Reserve; and what is being done to encourage further enrolments.
    Mr. Head: Three thousand five hundred and thirty-three men and 222 women. I do not think it necessary to enlarge the scope of this Reserve.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all that happens to members of the old Army Officers' Emergency Reserve is that they get a chit once a year asking them to confirm their address—in other words, all the War Office wants to know is whether they are alive or dead: and cannot the Secretary of State find something more useful for this Reserve now that we have, in addition, side by side with the Army Officers' Emergency Reserve the new Army Emergency Reserve with quite different functions?
    Mr. Head: I should be only too delighted for men who were in the Army Officers' Emergency Reserve to join the Army Emergency Reserve.

    Winter Clothing, Korea
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Secretary of State for War what provision has been made for the supply of winter clothing and equipment for members of Her Majesty's ground forces serving in Korea during the forthcoming winter.
    Mr. Head: Substantial quantities of winter clothing have already been despatched to the base in Japan and arrangements have been made for the supply, mostly from United States sources, of the scale of heaters asked for by the Command.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Is my right hon. Friend quite satisfied that there will be no delays such as occurred on a previous occasion, whereby in the earlier part of the campaign troops were without adequate winter clothing?
    Mr. Head: I have been into this matter in considerable detail, and I hope that there will be no trouble at all.

    Welbeck Abbey School
    Mr. M. MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for War how it is intended to select pupils for the proposed school at Welbeck Abbey.
    Mr. Head: The boys will be required to have the General Certificate of Education with passes at the ordinary level in mathematics, science and one other subject, or to have reached an equivalent standard, and to satisfy an interviewing board that they are suitable candidates.
    Mr. MacPherson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the week-end one of the news items in the "Observer" stated that the purpose of the college would be to give education to boys who would otherwise have left school at 16? Will he say whether that is so? If it is so, will he further say by what means he intends to ensure that the proposed school will attract only those who would otherwise have left school at 16? May I further ask him whether he will assure the House that as much as possible will be done to draw pupils on as wide a social basis as possible?
    Mr. Head: We want to draw pupils from a wide source. I know there is anxiety especially among headmasters, that we might draw away some of their best pupils whom they would like to remain on at school. We have told them that the total number we are taking, 150, should not be very serious. It is not our intention to go for the best pupils, but to go rather for boys interested in these particular subjects, who have a general all-round qualification to make officers.

    Home Guard
    Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for War how many men have now been enrolled in the Home Guard.
    Mr. Head: By 15th July enrolments totalled 18,015 and, in addition, 16,839 are in the Supernumerary Register.
    Mr. Wyatt: As the Army Estimates require us to make provision for 170,000 enrolments this year and only 18,000 have actually been made, is it not now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that the Government were extremely foolish to launch this ludicrous scheme, and should not this farce of trying to organise
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    the Home Guard when there is no imminent danger of war be abandoned before further Government money is wasted?
    Mr. Head: The danger of war, in my opinion, is dependent upon the efforts of preparedness of this country. Since it has receded, it would be very unwise to let slide these efforts. As regards recruitment for the Home Guard, one of the main difficulties is that owing to the rashness of some individuals on the other side it has to some extent become a party matter, which I deeply regret.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why does the right hon. Gentleman say that this has become a party matter when, in the course of the debate on the provision of a Home Guard, hon. Members and right hon. Members on this side of the House supported the principle of the creation of a Home Guard, but warned the right bon. Gentleman that the time was inopportune to proceed; and do not the figures—perhaps deplorable figures, according to one's opinion—indicate that it was a mistake to proceed prematurely with this scheme?
    Mr. Head: No, I would not agree that the figures indicate that. The men we have got are extremely good men and will form a valuable cadre against the days when we may have to expand. As regards the party side, I am aware of certain qualified support, but the fact remains that many men who might have joined the Home Guard have gained the impression that those who belong to the party of the right hon. Gentleman opposite are definitely against their joining.
    Mr. Wyatt: Since only 10 per cent. of those required have come forward, and even newspapers like the "Evening Standard," which does not belong to this party, are against this ludicrous scheme, does not this show beyond all doubt that this is the wrong moment to try to arouse enthusiasm in those few volunteers who can be found to support the Government?
    Major Beamish: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that there is no reason to be disappointed with the progress that is being made? The first step was to provide headquarters, commanding officers, adjutants and quartermasters. This has been successfully done, and we hope that a great deal more progress will be made as the months go on.

    Commissions (West Africans)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for War how many West Africans hold commissions; and how many are non-commissioned officers in African regiments.
    Mr. Head: There are at present 14 West Africans holding the Queen's Commission and 2,389 West African warrant and non-commissioned officers serving in the Royal West African Frontier Force.
    Mr. Sorensen: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any complaints regarding the small number of commissioned officers drawn from Africa, and is there any prospect of the number of commissioned officers being increased?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that. A few weeks ago we introduced a scheme whereby we shall aim to get another 14 Regular officers annually in this Force.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Cuban Sugar
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the glut of sugar in Cuba, if he will initiate negotiations for a new trade pact with that country which would enable the extra sugar to be obtained for sterling to be spent in Britain and thus make sugar rationing unnecessary.
    The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. H. R. Mackeson): No, Sir. We are heavily in deficit with Cuba on our balance of trade, and any additional purchases of sugar would increase the deficit whether we were to pay for them in inconvertible sterling or not. We already need a substantial increase in our exports to Cuba to pay for the existing level of our sugar purchases from that country.
    Mr. Dodds: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware of the statement made by prominent people in Cuba that they are prepared to sell sugar at less than 2d. per 1b. to this country, the money to be spent in this country, and as rearmament is being cut, cannot some further efforts be made to get extra sugar which would not have the effect of creating hardship in this country?
    Mr. Mackeson: Yes, Sir. Both my right hon. Friend and I have seen a
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    representative from Cuba, but the trouble at the moment is that we are importing £48½ million from Cuba and only exporting £.7½ million, and we are determined not to take any steps to prejudice the interest of the British Commonwealth sugar producers.
    Mr. Profumo: If the Government cut out altogether the importation of these fantastically expensive sugar substitutes from the Continent the money saved could be used to buy sugar from Cuba, thereby achieving similar results to that in the mind of the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds). Would not that have the approval of the whole House?
    Mr. Mackeson: That would not solve our balance of payment situation with Cuba, which is in fact almost part of the dollar area.
    Mr. Bottomley: Will not the hon. Gentleman consider seeing the Cuban Government representative and suggest that it might be to our mutual advantage to forgo Havana cigars this year and take more sugar?
    Mr. Mackeson: That is a different question. I am only too anxious to do everything we can. As the right hon. Gentleman says, it is our desire to help the Cubans to purchase more things from this country because, unless that is done, it will be difficult for us to maintain our present purchases.

    Film Production Fund
    Mr. Shepherdasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he proposes to take to secure an extension of the Eady Plan, in view of the vital need for long-term programme planning to ensure continuity of film production.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Thorneycroft): I look to the industry to take the initiative in working out plans for continuing the British Film Production Fund, which I believe is an important factor for the well-being of the British film industry. I appreciate that producers need to be able to look well ahead in making their plans, and I hope that all sections of the industry will co-operate in producing a scheme as soon as possible.
    Mr. Shepherd: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that statements such as were made in another place the other day do not help this situation?

    Clothing Industry Council
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade the duties of the Clothing Industry Council.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The functions of the Council are specified in the Second Schedule to the Clothing Industry Development Council Order, 1949 (S.I. 1949 No. 2124), of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. Dodds: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the uncertainty with regard to this Council? When is he going to make up his mind what he wants them to do, as work is badly needed in regard to the future of this industry?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The Question asks about the duties of the Council. I am now discussing with the appropriate bodies to see what we can do about the future of the Council.
    Mrs. Castle: Can the Minister say whether this Council is working out a new standard for the protection of the consumer to take the place of the Utility scheme, and, if so, when we are likely to have a report?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The British Standards Institution is taking the lead in the matter.

    German Cotton Cloth
    Mr. Shepherdasked the President of the Board of Trade the yardage of cotton cloth imported from Germany in the first six months of 1951; and the yardage imported in the first six months of 1952, or the latest period for which figures are available.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Imports of cotton cloth from Germany in the first six months of 1951 were 9,174 thousand square yards and in the first six months of 1952 20,771 thousand square yards. The main reason for this increase is that between one third and one half of this year's imports have resulted from defence orders placed last year when comparable goods could not be obtained in Lancashire. And I would remind my hon. Friend that these figures do not reflect the severity of the cuts made in March this year on private imports of textiles, since goods in transit at the time of these restrictions were admitted and licences issued to enable existing contracts to be honoured.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is the right hon. Gentleman able to say whether it is true that the new restrictions limit the imports to 40 per cent. of 1951, and can he say whether he expects these imports, now that there is not such a great need for a defence programme, to cease?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: These restrictions have taken textiles off open general licence and put them on quota. If the hon. Gentleman wants a percentage estimate perhaps he will put a Question down.
    Mr. Fort: Do I understand from my right hon. Friend that no more licences are being issued and imports will in future come in only against quota?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: They are off open general licence and on quota.

    Industrial Development (Scottish Highlands)
    Mr. Grimondasked the President of the Board of Trade in view of the comparative failure of the Development Area in Ross and Cromarty, what other steps he is taking to assist Highland areas where there is high and continuing unemployment in attracting new industries or occupations.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: We are doing all we can to persuade new industry to set up in the Highlands, especially those based on agriculture, forestry, fisheries and on other local resources. But as the hon. Member will appreciate, the problem of dealing with small pockets of unemployment in a widely scattered population is not a simple one.
    Mr. Grimond: Would the Minister not agree that in point of fact unemployment is fairly widespread compared with the rest of Britain, and has been for some time, and as efforts to attract new industries have so far rather failed, will he look at schemes put into operation in Norway to deal with similar problems?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Certainly.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Will my right hon. Friend agree that until basic services are put right in the Highlands he will not attract industry into that area?
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is not that the Development Area has failed

    1255
    but that private firms have not been able to take advantage of the Development Area. Will he consider Government action to encourage private enterprise to go there?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I was not suggesting that anything had failed. I was agreeing with the hon. Gentleman that we must continue our efforts in this matter.

    Exports (Quality)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of growing complaints in overseas markets about British manufactures, he will set up an export standards bureau to supervise and improve the quality of British exports.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No, Sir.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a number of Commonwealth legislatures recently the quality of British manufactured exports has been very severely criticised? Are not British exports getting a bad name because certain manufacturers are exporting cheap and shoddy goods?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: We produce better goods than anybody else in the world. A great deal of the criticism comes from our competitors in other countries.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: This was said in Commonwealth legislatures.
    Mr. Shepherd: Do not statements such as those which have just been made, without any knowledge, do a tremendous amount of damage to the prestige of this country?

    Moscow Economic Conference (Orders)
    Mr. Osborneasked the President of the Board of Trade to state what has been the value of orders placed in Great Britain from countries behind the Iron Curtain as a result of the recent Moscow Conference; how much has been exported; and what are the nature of the exports.
    Mr. Mackeson: I do not know of any contracts concluded with the Soviet Union or the East European countries in question as a result of the Moscow Conference.
    As to China, which my hon. Friend doubtless also has in mind, I understand
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    that contracts have been concluded for the sale of chemicals and wool tops to the value of £270,000 and £500,000, respectively, but that no shipments have yet been made. The goods are mostly of the kind normally imported by China from the United Kingdom and might well have been purchased had there been no Economic Conference at Moscow.
    Mr. Osborne: Does this mean that the two totals, amounting to £700,000, disprove the report which was issued immediately after the conference that members brought back contracts to the value of £6 million as the result of the conference?
    Mr. Mackeson: As I said in my answer, I have no knowledge of the contracts.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that no one who came back from Moscow said that he had brought back any contracts at all? What they brought back was agreement for trade between those countries and merchants here, which were subject to licence and subject to the ability to sell as well as to buy. Active negotiations are still going on, a great number of contracts have since been made, and there is no reason to doubt that every penny of the orders will be completed within the specified time.
    Mr. Mackeson: I can only say that my right hon. Friend himself wrote to the head of the Soviet delegation in London and received no acknowledgment, and there has been no reply to our approaches to Pekin or to other countries such as Czechoslovakia, Rumania and Bulgaria; and I repeat the first part of my answer to the Question.

    Pakistan Trade
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the reduction in imports into Pakistan from the United Kingdom in the year ended 31st March, 1952, compared with the previous year, especially in textiles, and of the greatly increased imports from Japan; and what steps he is taking to increase British exports to Pakistan.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I understand that United Kingdom exports of textiles to Pakistan decreased and exports from Japan to Pakistan increased during the year ended 31st March, 1952, compared

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    with the previous year. But I would remind my hon. Friend that our exporters to Pakistan enjoy preferences over a wide range of goods including textiles, that none of the measures which Pakistan has taken to regulate its imports are at all discriminatory, and that the share our exporters take of the market depends on the price, the quality and the availability of British goods.
    The fact that total United Kingdom exports to Pakistan during the year ended 31st March, 1952, increased by over £5 million or 12 per cent. compared with the previous year shows, I think, that our Trade Commissioners in Pakistan are doing all they can to help British exporters expand their trade with that country.
    Mr. Russell: Are any of the reductions due to the trade agreement which was negotiated with Pakistan last year involving reductions in preferences which were forced upon us by the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It would be very difficult to relate particular reductions to particular measures of that kind.

    Development Areas (Inquiry)
    Mr. F. Willeyasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made with the inquiry being held into the administration of the Development Areas.
    Mr. D. Jonesasked the President of the Board of Trade when he expects to receive the report of the committee on the trading estates; whether he proposes to make this report available to hon. Members; and when.
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the President of the Board of Trade if the inquiry into the administration of trading estate companies in the Development Areas has been completed; and what action he is taking on it.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Henry Strauss): I would refer the hon. Members to the replies which my right hon. Friend gave to the Question of the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey) and to the ensuing supplementary questions on 1st May. As he then explained, he has not appointed any committee but has
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    invited Sir Thomas Phillips and Sir Edward Gillett to give him confidential advice which he expects to receive by about the end of September.
    Mr. Willey: Will the Parliamentary Secretary agree that there is considerable interest in the advice that may be given? I am sure it will be of great interest to all connected with the Development Areas. Will he consider whether it is possible to publish the gist of the advice when he receives it so that we may all be cognizant of it?
    Mr. Strauss: I agree about the interest in the matter. The House will no doubt have some opportunity of knowing what is done as a result of the advice, but, having asked for confidential advice, it would be wrong of my right hon. Friend to undertake to publish it. What the hon. Gentleman has in mind can probably be considered later when my right hon. Friend receives the advice.
    Mr. Jones: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, as some directors of the trading estate companies gave information to the two gentlemen privately without other members of the companies being present, there is a good deal of interest in the Development Areas and that we should like to know what the conclusions of the two gentlemen are?
    Mr. Strauss: I think all hon. Members are agreed in wanting the inquiry to be of the greatest usefulness, but that object would obviously not be promoted if, having asked for a confidential report, one then agreed to publish it.
    Mr. Brooman-White: Does the inquiry also cover the problems in the Development Areas in Scotland?
    Mr. Strauss: Yes, Sir
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman say why it was necessary to have a confidential inquiry? What are the reasons for it? Why could not everything have been made public in the first instance?
    Mr. Strauss: If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the Questions which I have mentioned in my reply he will find the answer to his supplementary question.

    Anglo-Czechoslovakian Trade (Textiles)
    Mr. F. Macleanasked the President of the Board of Trade to make a statement regarding the proposed trade agreement with Czechoslovakia.
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now make a statement about the recent AngloCzechoslovakian trade talks.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The negotiations, to which I referred in answer to the Private Notice Question by the hon. Member for Ardwick (Mr. L. M. Lever) on 17th July have not yet been concluded. But I shall bear in mind the desirability of making a statement as soon as possible after their conclusion.
    Mr. Maclean: Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that all steps are being taken to safeguard the interests of the Lancashire textile industry under the terms of the agreement, and will he also bear in mind that by trading with Czechoslovakia he is strengthening the hold of that country's Communist Government on its unfortunate people?
    Mr. Lever: In regard to the negotiations, will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Cotton Board, the Manchester Chamber of Commerce and the cotton industry trade unions and take due account of what those bodies have to contribute? Will he give an undertaking that an agreement which includes the importation of printed cotton will not be concluded during the Recess when we shall have no opportunity to discuss it?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Gentleman had better wait until the discussions are concluded, when I shall be able to inform him.
    Mr. Lever: Will the agreement be concluded during the Recess?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Clearly it will take two sides to make the agreement. As far as I am concerned, the sooner it is concluded the better.
    Mr. Lever: The right hon. Gentleman has promised us an opportunity of discussing the agreement. Will he give us an opportunity of discussing it before it is signed?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have already answered that question.

    Tobacco (Dollar Imports)
    Mr. Osborneasked the President of the Board of Trade how much tobacco in volume and in value it is proposed to import this year from dollar sources; and what were the corresponding figures for last year.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Imports into the United Kingdom of unmanufactured tobacco from the United States, Canada and Cuba are expected to amount in 1952 to some 103,500,000 lb., a reduction of 56 per cent. on imports of 233,740,933 lb. from these sources in 1951.
    Mr. Osborne: Owing to the noise I could not quite hear the figure mentioned by my right hon. Friend, but I think it was a figure of 103 million pounds. In view of the fact that the dollar gap is not likely to be filled by our exports to the dollar markets, would it not be better to use the rare dollars we have to buy necessary food and cut out tobacco imports altogether from the market?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: My hon. Friend missed the most satisfactory part of my answer. There has been a reduction of 56 per cent.
    Mr. Osborne: That is only half a loaf and I am asking for the whole of the loaf.
    Mr. Mikardo: Would it not be best to stop altogether our imports of manufactured tobacco, including cigarettes, from dollar sources, because even though the amount is small it seems to be a waste of dollars.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: That is a different question.
    Mr. Jay: Can we take it that the policy of this Government is the same as the policy of the last Government, to increase the imports of tobacco coming from non-dollar sources?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The arrangements for substitution are proceeding as they have for some years.

    Electricity Charges, Rossendale Valley
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the textile industry in the Rossendale Valley has been adversely affected by the serious increase in the cost of electricity which has followed

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    upon the introduction of tariff M in April, 1952; and what plans he has for alleviating the situation.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am aware of the increase in electricity charges affecting the textile industry in the Rossendale Valley and elsewhere. I understand that discussions are in progress between the North Western Electricity Board and representatives of the textile industries concerned.
    Mr. Greenwood: Can the President of the Board of Trade say whether these negotiations are also affecting other parts of Lancashire, because this is a wide problem in the textile industry?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Not without notice.
    Mr. L. M. Lever: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the textile industry in the entire Rossendale Valley will be seriously affected by the importation of cotton under any Czechoslovakian agreement?

    Carpets (Irish Republic Duties)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the President of the Board of Trade what consultations he had with the Eireann Government in regard to revision of import duties into Eire for British manufactured carpets; what is the nature of the revision in tariffs; how far this is in accord with the terms of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade; what reciprocal advantages Britain will now obtain, or otherwise, from the Eireann Government; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: From the 15th July, the Government of the Irish Republic restored the duty on textile floor coverings from 20 per cent. ad valorem to its pre-war level of 40 per cent., which I should add, still gives British exporters a preference of 20 per cent. The Anglo-Irish Trade Agreements of 1938 and 1948 leave the Irish Republic perfectly free to restore this rate without having to consult us. But it is provided in the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement of 1938 that in such a ease the appropriate means of seeking a revision of the duty is for United Kingdom exporters to ask for, and present a case at, a tariff review in the Irish Republic. The Irish Republic is not a Contracting Party to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

    Wood Flour
    Mr. P. Robertsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now place the importation of wood flour on the individual licence system.
    Mr. H. Strauss: No, Sir. The proper method of protection for British industry is the tariff, and wood flour producers in this country are free to apply for an increase in the present tariff, if they are dissatisfied with the present rate of 15 per cent.
    Mr. Roberts: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that there is some urgency in this matter and that negotiations for a tariff would take some time? Is he not further aware that there is a surplus production of this form of sawdust, that we are importing thousands of tons of that for which we have to pay gold while at the same time we are producing all that we need except for 2,000 tons'? Can I have an answer?
    Mr. Strauss: I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's allegation, but nevertheless the difference exists between what it is right to do by tariff and by import restrictions.

    Cloths (Labelling)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the deadlock reached between shopkeepers and manufacturers on the labelling of woollen and worsted cloths; and, as it was hoped that such labelling would partly replace Utility quality standards, if he will press the Retail Trading Standards Association for an early decision on the matter.
    Mr. H. Strauss: I assume that the hon. Lady is referring to discussions which have been taking place on a committee of the British Standards Institution to settle a draft glossary of wool textile terms. I am aware that there have been differences of opinion on that committee and that the Retail Trading Standards Association have circulated their views. In accordance with the normal procedure of the B.S.I. in settling standards by consent, a further meeting of its appropriate committee will be held to discuss the comments received.
    Miss Burton: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in the annual report of the Association they described the

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    manufacturers proposal for labelling wool and wool mixture as clumsy and misleading? Is he further aware that if those proposals were adopted it would be legal to describe all rayon cloth as worsted suiting, and will he urge the Institution to be quick in making their decision?
    Mr. Strauss: I am aware of the case put by the Retail Trading Standards Association, some of which the hon. Lady has repeated, but the British Standards Institution is a perfectly competent body to hear and consider these matters.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Does the Minister agree that it would have been much better to have had a scheme of standards before the Utility scheme was scrapped, and in view of the uncertainty that his action is causing in the woollen industry, will the hon. and learned Gentleman do something to expedite the decision.

    Cornish Early Potatoes
    Mr. Haymanasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the losses sustained by Cornish producers this year on the early potato crop, due to mistiming of open general import licences; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent such a thing recurring in 1953.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am advised that the temporary break in prices in mid-June was primarily due to the early English season which brought crops from several districts on to the market simultaneously. As regards arrangements for 1953, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to a similar Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Sir H. Roper).
    Mr. Hayman: Is the Minister aware that the Cornish growers this year have lost over £250,000 on this crop, that one of my constituents lost £220 on four acres of potatoes, that the answer he has given is that he will follow precisely the same procedure next year as this year, and will he next year take steps to consult the growers directly?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I intend to consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Food in this matter.
    Mr. G. R. Howard: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the only way to
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    cure this is by tariffs, but in the meantime will he give some assurance that Her Majesty's Government are doing their utmost to make this quota system more efficient until such time as tariffs can be applied?

    Industrial Research and Development
    Mr. Boardmanasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take such action as may be possible to keep industry fully informed of current research and development, in order to maintain the traditional high standards of British workmanship and materials, particularly for manufactures intended for export.
    Mr. H. Strauss: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Lee) on 1st July on this subject. I would only add that the Board of Trade Journal, as part of its service to exporters, regularly draws attention to publications which are thought likely to be of value to industry.

  MINISTERIAL SALARIES
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Prime Minister what savings have been effected to date by the cuts in Ministerial salaries; and for how long these cuts will be imposed.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): The savings to Votes will be £28,000 in a full year, and amount to about £21,000 to date. As I announced on the 31st of October last, Ministers will draw reduced salaries for the period of re-armament or until October, 1954.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Prime Minister aware that rather more than this hollow gesture will be required if he is to persuade the workers earning £5 10s. a week when they want more wages to meet the higher cost of living?
  The Prime Minister: I am looking forward to seeing the hon. and gallant Gentleman make a gesture of which it can be said that it is at any rate not less hollow.
  Mr. Bevan: Is the Prime Minister aware that far more than this reduction has already been cancelled by the increase in the staff of the Paymaster-General.
  The Prime Minister: It is not customary to include the staff of any Department or branch in the salary of the Minister. In this case the Minister does not draw any salary at all.
  Mr. Bevan: Is the Prime Minister not aware that as a consequence of giving certain undefined duties to the Paymaster-General a considerable staff has been allotted to him, the cost of which more than exceeds any savings made on other Ministers?
  The Prime Minister: There is absolutely no relationship between the salaries paid to Ministers and the staffs of the various Departments of State which were so grossly and outrageously increased by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Wyatt: Is it not a fact that when Income Tax has been deducted the saving is relatively negligible, and would it not be more appropriate if at his time of life the Prime Minister abandoned these cheap demagogic gestures?
  The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Member is a judge of cheap demagogic gestures, but they do not often come off when he makes them.
  Mr. Shinwell: In view of the castigations of the right hon. Gentleman on the Members of the former Government, does he not realise that, even at the reduced salary, the Members of his Government are not worth it?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is no doubt trying to live up to the cheap demagogic gestures mentioned by his hon. Friend.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In view of the completely unsatisfactory nature of the reply I have had from the Prime Minister, I propose to raise this matter again at an early date.
  Mr. Wyatt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could I ask the Financial Secretary to answer Question No. 80? If you remember, when this incident happened a fortnight ago, I asked your leave to ask a Private Notice Question and you were sympathetic although you felt that it might not necessarily be answered in that way. The public is much disquieted by this theft and, if the Question is not answered today, it cannot be answered until the autumn.
  Mr. Speaker: The initiative in these matters must come from the Minister. The hon. Member will have a written reply to his Question.

COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
The Prime Minister: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement.
Some little time ago I communicated to the other Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth a proposal that we should meet in London in the latter part of November to review together the pressing issues of financial, commercial and economic policy with which our several Governments are faced, some of which have been the subject of continuous examination since the Finance Ministers' meeting in January of this year. It was our hope that out of such discussions we could work towards a constructive approach to the economic problems which beset the world.
I am glad to be able to inform the House that the other Commonwealth Prime Ministers have agreed that such a meeting will be timely and useful and that it will open in the last week of November.
The Prime Minister of South Africa has told me that while he himself would unfortunately have special difficulty in attending the conference at the time proposed, his country will be represented. The Prime Minister of India will be unable to attend at the time proposed, but the Government of India have agreed to make the appropriate arrangements for the participation of India. All other Commonwealth Prime Ministers, including the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia, hope to be present themselves for the whole or part of the conference. Arrangements will also be made for the representation of the Colonial Territories.
The conference will be preceded by preparatory discussions between officials of the Commonwealth countries.
I shall give the House further information on the subject in due course.
Mr. Gaitskell: While welcoming the announcement of the Prime Minister about this conference, for which the Opposition have steadily pressed since the

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failure of the Finance Ministers' conference last January, and noting that at last the new conference is to work towards a constructive approach to the economic problems which beset the world, may I ask the Prime Minister whether the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth countries will be attended by Finance or Economic Minsters, or will they be taking part on their own in these proceedings? For example, will the Prime Minister himself, as seems to be his tendency these days, be looking after the economic affairs of the United Kingdom, or will he be assisted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
The Prime Minister: I think that is obviously a controversial supplementary question, put forward with the desire and design of causing differences and ill-feeling amongst the Government.
Sir R. Acland: May I ask the Prime Minister, without any desire to be controversial, whether the Prime Minister of the Gold Coast will be asked to attend this conference, considering that his country is contributing in the neighbourhood of £25 million to the favourable balance of the sterling area?
The Prime Minister: He is not included among those who are coming to this conference.
Hon. Members: Why not?
Mr. Mikardo: Will the Prime Minister do his best to avoid one of the results of the Finance Ministers' conference, which was the cancellation of many orders from this country?
Mr. Bevan: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer the supplementary question: Why is the Prime Minister of the Gold Coast not invited?
The Prime Minister: This is an invitation to Prime Ministers of Commonwealth countries.
Mr. Bevan: What is he?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on the Consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Housing Bill and the Town Development Bill and on the Magistrates' Courts Bill [Lords] and the Marine and Aviation Insurance (War Risks) Bill exempted at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House). —[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Mr. Ellis Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask you two or three questions, and then to raise points arising out of what you say.
  First, may I ask you whether you have been consulted about the new arrangements for business today? Secondly, is it not the case that it has usually been the practice for three or four days to be allowed for the Consolidated Fund Bill? My reference to that is page 298 of Erskine May. Also, am I correct in understanding that the Consolidated Fund Bill is exempted business? In asking that question, I am only desiring to safeguard our hard-won rights.
  The next point which I raise with you, Mr. Speaker, in view of your office, is this: are there not important constitutional rights at stake in this business? Is it not a fact that one of the most important constitutional rights which the representatives of the people in this country have won is that their grievances must be remedied before we vote Supply? Therefore, are we right today in acquiescing in this change in business, since the Motion on the Paper will limit the business and there are increasing grievances of the people in many industrial parts of this country? Therefore, if we allow this to pass, is it not a new method of curtailing business in this House? May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether you accept my line of reasoning as correct and if not, what are the precedents for this change?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has asked me a large number of questions. First, was I consulted? I was told that it was the desire of all parties to have a debate on this Motion lasting for two days. In reply to the second question, the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill is, of course, exempted business. It is exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1. The general constitutional principle which the hon.
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  Member has enunciated of redress of grievances before Supply is a long-standing constitutional principle in this House. But that includes all the discussions we have had in the Committee and on the other stages of Supply. The Question at present before the House is, "That the Bill be now read a Second time." It is the general desire of the House, so I was told, to proceed at once to the Motion, but the Question now before the House is as I have stated.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I thank you for your reply, Mr. Speaker, but may I put this further point? I do not like using the word "I," because it is becoming customary to use it too much. You will remember, however, that no debate on the economic situation was suggested until it was proposed from a certain quarter two or three weeks ago. We have closely watched it because of its importance to the people we are representing, and now this Motion has for its object the curtailing of debate.
  May I put this point to you, in fairness to yourself? In my view, the House has never been consulted with regard to a debate on the Motion. What we were consulted about was a debate on the economic situation. Various industries and interests are represented, and this new method of curtailing debate will prevent their grievances from being remedied. If, therefore, you can give an undertaking that the debate on the Motion will be allowed upon the same basis as is our right upon the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill, I should think that the House would consider that.
  Mr. Speaker: I should not give any undertaking of that kind. If the House were to proceed on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, it would, of course, be exempted business; but I must be quite clear that if the House agrees to the Question for the Second Reading of the Bill and proceeds to discuss the Motion, that would not be exempted business.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Is it not clear that the whole matter is still in the possession of the House and that anybody can raise practically any subject at the moment on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill before we begin to discuss the Motion which the Government are anxious to move? I

  1271
  should like to make that clear, because it is perfectly plain, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, that what we are now doing, if we pass the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill formally, is to surrender all the rights that normally are exercisable on the Consolidated Fund Bill and then to proceed to discuss the Motion, which is subject to the Standing Order time-table of the House. May we not have this pleaded against us in the future? If we do it on this occasion, it is because the House wishes to do it, but at the moment the House is in possession of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
  Mr. Speaker: The Question which I proposed to the House was, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Further to that point of order. I confess that I am not quite clear what the position is. I understand that in a moment or two someone will move the Motion, "That the Bill be now read a Second time." That is the Motion for the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill and that it is exempted business, and could, if the vote were not taken earlier, go on a long time if Members of the House wished so to continue the debate. What I do not understand is at what stage someone is going to move the Motion in the name of the Prime Minister, because it is clear, I suppose, that there cannot be two Motions before the House at the same time.
  Mr. Speaker: The Order for the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill is an Order of the Day, and it has been proposed. I have proposed the Question to the House. The House cannot proceed to any other business until it has disposed of the Question which is before it.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: There are recent precedents which show that difficulties have been created for the House from situations which were nowhere near as important as this to the people of the country, but it is not our desire that we should create difficulties. What we are concerned about is to safeguard the future. Therefore, having made the point, and provided that the House is agreeable, so far as I am concerned we can now part with the Consolidated Fund Bill, but 1 hope that this procedure will not be repeated.
  Mr. Speaker: I trust that I have made the position perfectly clear to the House. The Question which I proposed to the House was, "That the Bill be now read a Second time." I should now think it is the desire of the House that I should put that Question.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House for Tomorrow.

  ECONOMIC POSITION
  3.45 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I beg to move,
  That this House welcomes the determination of Her Majesty's Government to maintain the progress so far made towards improving the balance of overseas payments and to take such further measures as may be necessary for the economic security of the country.
  I made a statement in the House on 12th June, and I emphasised then that it was the fixed purpose of Her Majesty's Government to establish our economy on a secure basis and to put the balance of payments first in all our considerations Policy is and has been a continuous process, and I will tell hon. Members how our continuing policies have already achieved definite results. But I shall also stress the need for renewed and intensified effort.
  This is not a time when a Chancellor of the Exchequer can announce changes in taxation or impose fresh charges, or in some way carry out his classical role of fleecing the taxpayer. Heaven forbid that we should have another Finance Bill—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and I feel that that is voiced in various quarters of the House. The Government have however, reviewed the position with the utmost sense of responsibility. We are satisfied that the steps we are taking now, those we have taken and those we propose, will steer our country through the very real anxieties of the future, not in a negative, fearful mood, but with courage, imagination and, above all, resolution.
  A difficult time is not a time of crisis but a time of opportunity, and it is in this spirit that I shall tell the House of the steady and systematic manner in which we are holding our present position and of the radical approach we must make

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  to the much longer and harder task of restoring once more our economic strength. This strength, as the House will realise, is vital if we are to maintain our standard of living and to restore, as we are gradually doing under the lead of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, whom we are so glad to see back with us again, our position of influence and leadership in the free world.
  On assuming power, the Government were faced with the immediate task of averting a major balance of payments crisis. Unless we succeeded, all would be lost. We are now half-way through the calendar year and it is still too early for the figures for the first half-year to be firm, but it is clear that substantial progress has been made.
  We had two objectives for the United Kingdom. The first related to our current balance with the non-sterling world, and the second to our current balance with the world as a whole. The first was to bring the United Kingdom into current balance with the non-sterling world in the second half of this year, after taking credit for defence aid from the United States.
  The House will remember that we started front the position that in the second half of 1951, when U.S. aid was negligible, the United Kingdom current deficit with the non-sterling world was running at an annual rate of no less than £1,200 million. In the first six months of this year, I estimate that, after taking credit for defence aid, which amounted to about £75 million, our current deficit had been reduced to an annual rate of some £400 million—that is, one-third of what it was before.
  Our second objective was to achieve in the latter half of this year at least a balance in the United Kingdom's accounts with the world as a whole, excluding United States aid. The position from which we started was that in the second half of 1951 our current deficit on this basis was running at an annual rate of £850 million a year. We now estimate that in the first quarter of 1952 this deficit was reduced to an annual rate of about £150 million, that is, to nearly one-sixth, and in the second quarter there has probably been a further significant improvement.
  So far, so good; but what of the half year now beginning? There are, of
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  course, as the House will realise, great uncertainties in looking ahead even for so short a time. Our surpluses and deficits are the small marginal differences between the vast totals of payments and earnings involved in our share of the world's trade. Very small changes in the world situation can alter the total of payments or earnings enough to make a very big difference to the comparatively small figure of a deficit or a surplus. But, bearing in mind this uncertainty, which may work either way, I will now examine our prospects in the current half year.
  First, what has been the effect of our import cuts? In the third quarter of last year our imports from all sources—that is, on the c.i.f. basis shown in the Trade Returns—were at an annual rate of £4,250 million. In the fourth quarter the rate fell to £4,000 million. In the first quarter of this year it fell a little further to £3,950 million and in the second quarter, which has just ended, the annual rate was down to £3,700 million, a very substantial drop indeed. However, taking into account the export situation, we were not satisfied that we should get through without further reduction in our buying programmes for the second half of this year. I therefore had to insist that our forward purchases should be strictly limited, so that the rate of imports will continue to fall even more sharply during the next few months.
  We have managed to keep up—in this general action we have taken —the general level of the basic rations, but this has been possible only by' a very drastic cut in other foods. Imports of unrationed foods, apart, of course, from wheat and flour, represent about one-third of our food and agricultural imports from all sources. In the second half of this year they will now be about 25 per cent. less than they were in the second half of 1951. This figure covers the whole range—canned meats, fruit and vegetables, confectionery and the like.
  What about our policy on raw materials? We have consistently aimed in our policy on raw materials to maintain employment and production in industry and agriculture. But we have had to find room in our programme for the very large increase in imports of steel for the engineering industry. This has meant heavy savings elsewhere; for example, imports of paper and pulp for

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  the remainder of this year will probably be less than half what they were in the latter part of 1951. We have already reduced our purchases of dollar tobacco very heavily. Recent decisions will mean that our imports of manufactured goods —other than machinery and defence supplies—will be about 40 per cent. less during the second half of this year than in the second half of 1951. For 1953 we have already taken the decision to limit future programmes of imports from the non-sterling world strictly to what we can afford.
  Incidentally, let me make it clear that, taking 1952 as a whole, we expect our basic stocks in total of imported foodstuffs and raw materials to remain fairly steady. In the last six months they have actually increased. During the next six months they will fall, but probably by less than the amount of the rise in the first half year. I am sorry to tell the House that we have had to cut imports, but our action, combined with the immediate extra export earnings, which I shall describe, is calculated to make a decisive contribution to our achieving a balance during the next six months.
  Now I want to talk about extra export earnings. The Government have decided that we must make more coal available for export. In the first 29 weeks of this year 2½ million more tons have been produced than in the same period of last year. On 12th July the total distributed stocks were 3¾ million tons higher, that is, at 16.9 million, than at the same time in 1951. At the same date there were 18,000 more men in the mines and 6,400 more were working at the face—which is the vital figure. This larger labour force should show increasing results in output as the year goes on. I hope that those who have toiled to produce these extra tons will realise how invaluable is their contribution to our recovery and how much they will be applauded at home and overseas.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Give them a rise.
  Mr. Butler: In 1951 we exported 7.8 million tons and I hope that we shall double this figure in 1952.
  Next we are looking for a contribution from the export of defence equipment to our friends and allies. I told the House
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  on 12th June that we had made an agreement to settle part of our debts to the European Payments Union by exporting nearly £9 million worth of arms and equipment over the next two years to Belgium, one of the main creditors in the European Payments Union. For this we have already received credit, and by this we save direct payments in gold.
  I am glad to state also that the U.S. Administration have already placed orders for their own forces and under their off-shore Procurement Programme to the value of nearly £25 million. We are at the moment discussing the possibility of substantial extra sales. Apart from these special arrangements, we expect to secure a further £l0 million this year from the sale abroad of arms which we can spare from our production, over and above the amounts we had formerly envisaged, and I expect to receive the whole of this sum from exports to non-sterling area countries. These sales will help us to earn a certain amount more foreign exchange during the second half of this year. Moreover, they have the advantage, which hon. Members must realise, of keeping in being, and in operation, industrial capacity for the production of the latest weapons; and they are a valuable contribution to the arming of our friends in the free world. They will include as already stated some of the latest types of weapons, for example, Centurion tanks.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will deal tomorrow with the strategic and technical review of our defence situation which has been carried out with the advice of the Chiefs of Staff. It is a complex matter, with which no one more than he is so admirably equipped to deal. I confine myself to the effect on our balance of payments, which can be simply stated. With this new pattern of our defence effort which he will describe it will be possible to limit the demands made by defence on the engineering industries in the near future. Consequently the further increases in output that can be achieved in these industries by improved methods, greater productivity and new capacity will be available to swell the flow of exports and help relieve our balance of payments. Here is one sensible instance of the application of the principle of giving the balance of payments priority. So much for the contribution to be made by coal and defence.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene? It is a very important statement that has now been made, that priority is to be given to exports from the engineering industries. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House to what extent that priority will affect the figures of the armaments programme?
  Mr. Butler: I am not poaching upon the ground which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is to cover at length tomorrow. So if the right hon. Gentleman will be patient, he will hear a full explanation of these matters in the debate tomorrow.
  Mr. Bevan: As this is the opening speech, and we are anxious that the debate shall proceed with the utmost information, if priorities are to be given to products of the engineering industries, surely the figures have been worked out of the impact that is likely to have on the armament programme itself; and unless some figure is present in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman, no one knows at all to what extent the priorities will impinge on the arms programme. Why this coyness about giving that figure?
  Mr. Butler: The whole project and conception of the defence plan, the figures which the right hon. Gentleman desires, and all aspects of it will be discussed by the Prime Minister tomorrow. As I have a great many other subjects to mention, I think I had better continue with my speech, confining myself to the balance of payments aspect which I have described.
  Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: Will the right hon. Gentleman just answer this simple question? Does he, or does he not, mean that there is to be a further slowing down of the speed of the armaments programme?
  Mr. Butler: I mean exactly what I have said, and perhaps the hon. Member will study my words, because he will see that in fact what I have said indicates that there will be an advantage to the balance of payments problem with which we are all concerned; and what I have said frequently before, namely, that the triple impact on the metal-using industries of exports, defence and home demand will be somewhat relieved in the interests of the balance of payments.
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  Now I will go on with some further remarks about exports. The outstanding task remains, namely, to bring about a big increase in our export earnings, especially outside the sterling area, not only this year, but for many years to come. We must count on a great part being played by the so-called "invisibles," especially by our international businesses of oil and shipping, British enterprise overseas, the growth of tourist income, and the combination of banking, merchanting and insurance. Tourism especially this year will have a great part to play in our recovery, and we look for a considerable increase in its earnings.
  Now for visible exports. We know that some industries are adapting themselves with resource and vigour to the new situation. But if we look at the general figures of exports we cannot possibly be content with our present export effort. In the first half of this year, exports, although 9 per cent. better than in the first half of 1951, were only slightly higher in value than in the second half of 1951. In volume they were probably slightly lower; and in the second quarter the value of exports was 13 per cent. lower than in the first.
  The prime task of increasing exports generally depends for its success on the energy, initiative and ingenuity of industry itself. The Government propose to help with some day-to-day administrative measures of some value to exporters. In allocating raw materials we shall continue to give preference to exports, and particularly those to the dollar area. We shall moderate the exchange control over credit terms, and widen the facilities under the Export Credits Guarantee Act so as to help to make our export offers competitive. It is very often just that little bit extra which makes it possible to sell a car or other commodity in the dollar or other markets.
  I stress again how important it is for the commercial banks to continue to give priority to exports in their general administration of credit. I shall be saying more about our overseas policy and exports later, and the President of the Board of Trade will be speaking at the end of this debate.
  I wish now to refer to the prospects of the rest of the sterling area and of the European Payments Union. The efforts of the other sterling area countries are

  1279
  showing results. I do not think that the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) had any right to say that the financial conference we held in January was a failure. That is certainly not the view of the other Finance Ministers of the Commonwealth who took part, and, as I shall be showing the results themselves will confound the right hon. Gentleman and his criticism.
  I had hoped that the other sterling area countries would have achieved a surplus with the non-sterling world during the second half of 1952. Had it not been for the fall in the last six months in the prices of those commodities, such as rubber and jute, on which the economies of some of our partners in the sterling area depend, we might have been able to report more spectacular results. But despite the circumstances, which could hardly have been foreseen, I expect that our partner countries, taken together, will be just about in balance with the non-sterling world in the current six months.
  I now deal with the situation during this half year in the European Payments Union. It is difficult to make precise calculations because of the great variety of transactions which involve ourselves, the sterling area and the rest of the world. There are bound to be considerable margins of error. I have, however, made the most careful calculations possible as a result of the cuts made and the steps we have taken.
  I must warn the House that in July our deficit will be considerably larger than it has been recently, but this present quarter is normally the worst for the whole sterling area in its balance of payments with Europe, and our best estimates show that the July figure does not indicate the start of a worsening trend. Indeed, the steps we have taken should result in restoring us to a position of balance with the European Payments Union, I hope by the end of the year, provided we stick determinedly, as we must do, to the task of reaching balance and then earning back the gold which we have paid out.
  This brings me to the end of my review of the factors affecting our situation in this half year. I can now sum them up and put my conclusion before the House. Provided no new adverse factors arise and provided we carry through to their
  1280
  logical conclusion the strict measures which we have consistently adopted, and have now recently reinforced, I expect that, after taking credit for defence aid, which for this purpose I calculate at £115 million, the current account of the United Kingdom, in the second half of 1952, will be in balance with the non-sterling world and at least in balance with the world as a whole. That is to say, if we are constantly on the alert we may well attain both the formidable objectives which we set ourselves.
  If we do, and if the current account between the rest of the sterling area and the non-sterling world is also balanced, that will indeed be evidence of the inherent strength and stamina of the country. My right hon. and hon. Friends may feel that the account I have given today may well be the answer to that expert draftsman, the former Attorney-General, who at Swindon the other weekend, referred to
  "those palsied Conservative Ministers, unable to give a lead and incapable of consistency."
  We welcome the mild, former Attorney-General in these new and sinister phrases, but he had better turn his attention to what the Minister of Works said at Magor in Monmouthshire, in describing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) as,
  "the downright abuse of a small, ambitious and highly organised minority within his own ranks."
  We advise right hon. and hon. Members opposite to turn their attention to their own ranks, and to cease criticising a Government which, in a few months, has achieved results which are in the interests of us all and of the whole country.
  Now, we must move out of the danger area and seek some solution to our fundamental problems which will last and endure. We should, indeed, be complacent in the House as a whole if we under-rated the fundamental changes which have taken place in our economy since 1939. Many of these burdens have been born of honour—of the part we played in the war.
  In the war, we lost one quarter of our national wealth in capital losses both at home and abroad. We were transformed from the world's biggest creditor, a surplus position of about £3,500 million, to a debtor position of about £2,500 million. The gold reserves, both in relation to our

  1281
  liabilities and in relation to the turnover of our external transactions, have dropped by five-sixths. The change in the terms of trade has added up to £1,000 million a year to our import bill. It means that another three hours' work a week has to be done by every worker in the country to get the same amount of commodities from abroad as we got before. [Interruption.] I do not think hon. Members should get so excited about these facts, because they are very important, and it is very important, too, that people at home and abroad should understand them.
  In the world of cold war, our overseas military and political commitments, which cost us only a few millions in the 'thirties, came to nearly £200 million in 1951, and now cost even more, and that represents the efforts of our far-flung forces in Korea, Egypt, Malaya and elsewhere. We have to devote far greater sums to defence, in men, material and money, than we ever previously needed to contemplate in peace-time. Our island economy can no longer rely on cheap and plentiful supplies of food and raw materials from abroad, and we have to fight every inch of our way in the markets of the world.
  But this is not all. We have capital commitments which should not be forgotten—debts to the United States and Canada—to the European Payments Union; obligations under the Colombo Plan and also to provide funds for investment abroad for the development of British-owned and Commonwealth enterprises, and for the benefit of the underdeveloped areas. These commitments are very real and have to be paid for in exactly the same way as current imports of food or raw materials. If they are not, then the loss must fall, directly or indirectly, on the gold reserves, whereas our real need is to build them up again.
  Of course, we are proud of what we have been able to achieve as a country—our defence programme, the most impressive of any nation of our size in the world, and our system of social services, second to none. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tell it to the benches behind you."] It might be a good thing if hon. Members sometimes gave credit to those on this side of the House who took their part in these policies.
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  Surely, we must strive, with that resolution, that skill and inventiveness in new design and production which we still have and which is still the envy of the world, to preserve and fortify our proud position by ensuring solvency in our current accounts, and securing the surplus that we must have if we are to pay our way and enable our economy to take the shock of external changes.
  Here is a formidable task which calls for all the energies and skill of our people, and it is certainly not a task which can be solved in terms of restriction. Our whole plan and policy must have as their aim, expansion—expansion of production and expansion of exports of the kind the world wants and at prices which the world is ready to pay. We must enlarge our ideas and kindle our imagination. We must seek to establish the conditions, both at home and abroad, of an expanding economy.
  I will look first at home and then abroad from the point of view of encouraging expansion. At home, industrial activity has been stable since the Budget. In fact, in the first two months of the financial year, output was, if anything, slightly lower than in the corresponding months of 1951. In some industries, things are better, especially in coal, to which I have referred. The steel outlook, too, is more promising; more supplies will be available this year than last, and since it has been the shortage of steel which has held back production in many industries, it is probable that these new supplies will lead to an expansion of output in the engineering industries.
  Here I want to say something about the White Paper published yesterday. Consistent with our election pledges, the Government have outlined a plan for the future of the steel industry. Now will be the time, during the long Recess, for constructive criticism and for proposals to be put forward designed to effect a lasting and accepted national settlement of the future of this great industry. I want to say this in all seriousness to the House. I can assure the House that we shall be ready to consider any ideas put forward, from whatever quarter they come.
  Taking the chemical industry, we also have encouraging reports. Its output has already grown by over half in recent

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  years. And when we turn to agriculture, we must produce more home-grown food through conscious and energetic encouragement, and not criticism, of the agricultural industry. We are aiming to bring production to 60 per cent. above pre-war, with particular emphasis on meat production. This will be done partly by Government help and partly by further improvements in grassland management. There is already a fresh spirit of endeavour and determination on our farms.
  Another industry in which the Government believe that expansion is possible is the building industry. Here we must get higher production without increasing the labour force or placing an undue burden of imported materials on the balance of payments. The Government believe—as has been shown in the lead given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government—that much more building work can be done, with a given amount of steel, by the more general adoption of methods of building which use steel economically. Constructions which use the old-fashioned methods will have to be drastically reduced.
  We look to all in the building industry and to the professions to assist us in this task. At the same time, further economies are being made in the use of timber in building work. On these assumptions we shall continue our housing drive, which is already achieving success. In general, we intend to give a larger share of building output to productive industry in 1953. We had to cut back here because of the steel shortage in 1952. But in our present economic situation new building for industry is of the first importance, and will be so treated.
  I should now refer for a minute or two to the action which we have taken in the field of monetary policy.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: The right hon. Gentleman made an important statement with regard to increased production by the engineering industry for export purposes. What concerted plans has he to propose that will see that the capacity of the engineering industry is used more in the national interest, and that the national interest will be given priority?
  Mr. Butler: I cannot enlarge on that here, but, judging from the lead already
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  given to the industry, I am certain they will work with us in this general objective.
  I want to say a word or two about monetary policy. The rise in the Bank rate and other measures which were used have brought about a more cautious use of credit at home and have made credit more difficult and more expensive for foreign borrowers. Already at home I was able to say in March that the level of bank advances had become virtually stable. That restraint has been fully maintained. The dangerous growth in credit has been halted, but credit for industries vital to export and to defence has still been given where need was shown.
  We have also got to keep a careful eye on the level of Government expenditure, and not only on Government expenditure, but also expenditure by local authorities. If we are to achieve our objectives, these expenditures must be kept within the limits of what we can afford, and so, as the time comes for the Estimates, we shall continue with our policy of curbing public expenditure in order to maintain a healthy economy and currency. The present Government have already made great efforts in this direction, and as an example I should like to tell the House that my aim of reducing the Civil Service by 10,000 in the first six months of the year has been achieved and surpassed. The usual White Paper giving the details will be presented on 1st August.
  Such controls of credit and expenditure help exports not only by keeping down competing demands for resources, but also by helping to avoid rises in costs. It is essential to avoid these rises in costs. We cannot afford them—the House will have heard what I said about the export trade—faced as we are with such severe price competition for so many ranges of goods.
  Our policy on profits should ensure that there will be reasonable restraint in their distribution. As regards wages, moderation must be the keyword. Everyone must know that increases of wages not matched by increases of productivity would force up our prices and diminish our prospects of attaining the level of exports which is necessary for our salvation.
  I trust the House will realise on all sides that any statement of mine, such

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  as I made at Exeter, or action by my colleagues springs from a deep desire to meet the nation's needs, as well as to preserve constitutional practices. If this is understood we shall come through our difficulties on the home front successfully, however much we disagree.
  If we price ourselves out of world markets and lose exports, or if the cost of living spiral starts whirling again we shall risk falling right back to bankruptcy. Then our pound would lose its value and we should not be able to afford our daily bread or the materials for our daily work. This, on the home front we ask for moderation in demands, that extra reward shall go as far as possible with extra effort, that we shall expand production and put more into export.
  The expansion of our own earnings, visible and invisible, to the extent necessary to enable us to pay our way, is a formidable task. We have to do this in any case, whatever the world conditions may be, but our task would be infinitely eased if world conditions were favourable. I come, therefore, for the last few minutes to our attitude to this major question.
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: Before the right hon. Gentleman comes to that, may I ask him one question on exports? Without poaching on what the Prime Minister is to say tomorrow, could the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much he hopes to increase in pounds, shillings and pence the value of our exports by his different pattern with regard to arms? He must have some calculation as to how much extra is to be earned from exports by the reduction in arms.
  Mr. Butler: I have already said to the right hon. Gentleman that I cannot add any more today, and that must be my answer to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Herbert Morrison: May I put this to the right hon. Gentleman? Half the period allocated to this debate will have gone by tonight. This factual element of the matter is an important element of the debate, whatever view may be taken, and therefore it is surely not treating the House properly that this material point—and it is a material point whatever views people may take about it—should be hidden until we start the debate tomorrow, by which
  1286
  time half the period of the debate will be gone. Therefore, we are in a muddle as far as that situation is concerned.
  Mr. Butler: I cannot add anything in the way of factual statements today to what I have already said. The right hon. Gentleman says he is in a muddle.
  Mr. Morrison: No, I did not.
  Mr. Butler: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will just let me say that to develop the case on defence demands a considerable preparation, and I do not propose to enlarge on it further today.
  Mr. Morrison: I did not say I was in a muddle. The right hon. Gentleman has no need to misrepresent the situation. I said that the House is bound to be in a state of some confusion today if these facts which are known to the Chancellor—I am not asking him to deploy the whole argument—are not given to the House today. Surely it is reasonable and fair to the House that the bare facts at any rate should be given today.
  Mr. Butler: The main facts have been given both to the right hon. Gentleman and to the House, namely, that the impact of defence on the metal-using industries will be limited.
  Mr. Morrison: To what extent?
  Mr. Butler: I cannot evaluate that exactly. If one did that, one would have to stand by it. I think it will be of great assistance to the balance of payments position, but I think that if one cannot evaluate something exactly it is not fair to put it to the House and to be expected to stand by it. Therefore, I cannot add anything to what I have said.
  Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman has told us nothing at all.
  Mr. Butler: I was saying that if we are to have expansion on the home front, we must have expansion and take our share in a greater degree of world trade. If trade is increasing and there is a favourable atmosphere for a growth of world trade, our prospects are greatly improved. If we are going to expand this world trade, we must have the help of the sterling Commonwealth and Canada, and we need the good will of the United States in helping with capital for overseas development and purchase of our available raw materials and exported goods. We

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  must also recreate sterling as a strong and respected currency and a sought-after medium of exchange.
  Thus we have decided to embark on what we hope will develop into the greatest effort made since the war to establish with our friends and allies the conditions for a real expansion of world trade. The Prime Minister has already announced that a Commonwealth Conference will be taking place in the autumn. The fact that six out of eight Commonwealth Prime Ministers have informed my right hon. Friend that they propose to come to London can be taken as unmistakable evidence of the importance which they and their Governments attach to securing the highest possible degree of working together in our joint problems.
  Not only will the Commonwealth Conference follow up the work of the Finance Ministers' Conference, but we shall also be able to broaden our discussions into the whole field of economic and trade relations. We shall also take in, in the preliminary discussions which will pave the way for the conference and later, the whole of the system of Imperial Preferences to which we attach so much importance. We hope also to consider what part the various international agencies, whether financial or economic, should play in the solution of our problems.
  We must link this development in the Commonwealth with the lead which the Foreign Secretary has already taken in Europe by being elected Chairman of O.E.E.C. The result is that this country will have the priceless opportunity of linking up the special problems of Europe with those of the Commonwealth and the free world. When in a position of lead, as we shall be, we have linked up the problems of the Commonwealth with the problems of Europe and then sought the co-operation—
  Mr. Wyatt: Will the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Butler:—of the United States and the friendly comradeship of Canada—
  Mr. Wyatt: May I ask—
  Mr. Butler:—then we shall have thought out in detail our plans and designs for establishing our material prosperity and our strategic security on lasting
  1288
  foundations. These plans are of vital importance to our country and to every hon. Member in this House. It will need much time and patience to carry them out, but I believe that the actions we are to take will eventually result in the long-term—
  Mr. Wyatt: May I ask—
  Mr. Butler:—establishment of the economic future of this country. When this conference has taken place I feel certain that, with the other developments to which I have referred, we can put our long-term affairs on a solid basis.
  I would say to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who seem to mock a great many of these developments and who seem to have taken very lightly some of the serious remarks that I have made today, that they do not seem to have accepted the problems of our country in the spirit that they should, which is that if we fail we fail together, and if we succeed we succeed together.
  Mr. Wyatt: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask him a question?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): Order.
  Mr. Wyatt: On a point of order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not see how a point of order can arise while I am proposing the Question.
  Mr. Wyatt: It is customary to be allowed to ask the speaker a question. May I put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer one question before he sits down? What I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Since I have been in the Chair I have noticed that the right hon. Gentleman was not willing to give way. There is no point of order.
  Mr. Wyatt: On a point of order. It is customary in this House to be allowed to put a question—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Wyatt: I have not yet finished my point of order. It is customary in this House to be allowed to put a question to a speaker before he finally resumes his seat. That is what I was trying to do. The Chancellor has not resisted my so doing. May I put my question?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman appeared to be unwilling to answer the question earlier.
  Mr. Wyatt: No, Sir. It was not the right hon. Gentleman who was unwilling to hear the question; it was the hon. Member sitting behind him. The right hon. Gentleman said nothing. You, Sir, were allowing me to put the question which hon. Members behind the Chancellor would not allow me to put. Surely I may be allowed to put the question now.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: As I understood the position, the hon. Gentleman was asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give way to him and to answer a question before he sat down. The right hon. Gentleman was unwilling to give way.
  Mr. Wyatt: I was trying to put a question before the Chancellor finally sat down. He made no motion or sign whatever that he resisted, but there was so much noise from the back benches opposite that I was unable to put the question. May I put the question now?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was not willing to answer the question, because he did not sit down.
  Mr. Wyatt: He does not know what the question is.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No, of course he does not; but he was not willing to answer.
  Mr. Wyatt: What I wanted to ask the right hon. Gentleman was whether—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think I understand the position. The right hon. Gentleman was unwilling to give way to answer the question while he was speaking, and I do not suppose that he is willing to answer it now.
  Mr. H. Morrison: On a point of order. Surely, it is customary when a Minister has resumed his seat for an hon. Member to say, "Before the Minister resumes his seat, will he deal with so and so?" It is open to the Minister whether he does or does not. The grievance from which my hon. Friend is legitimately suffering is that, instead of allowing that legitimate and customary procedure, hon.
  1290
  Members opposite are misconducting themselves. They are shouting for the purpose of preventing my hon. Friend from being heard. I submit now that it would be right for you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to ask hon. Members opposite to behave themselves.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I certainly will do that if it is necessary. If the Chancellor wishes to answer the question, I have no objection. I concluded that he did not wish to answer it.
  Mr. Wyatt: May I now put to him—
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I can deal only with one thing at a time.
  Mr. Wyatt: What I wanted to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer was whether, before he finally resumes his seat, he would tell us what proposals the Government have to deal with the economic situation which the Prime Minister said was so serious.
  4.40 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: This debate was heralded by a strange series of confusing statements by various members of the Government, but one thing which those statements had in common was that some important statement was to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon. There never has been such an amazing anticlimax. I can assure the Chancellor that a certain amount of the clamour with which some of his speech was greeted was not in fact due to disagreement with what he was saying. It was due to anxiety and surprise that all he could give us was a series of platitudes with which most of us agree. After all that has happened before, it is really a very surprising situation.
  My hon. and right hon. Friends have drawn attention to the peculiar position which we are in as far as the defence programme is concerned, and I shall return to that subject later on; but I must say straight away that it makes it extremely difficult for us to debate such proposals as there may be from the Government when we have not the slightest idea what they are.
  Let me remind the House of statements that were made beforehand. The Prime Minister started it all with a speech in which he introduced, in his own colour-

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  ful and dramatic way, the conception of the treacherous trap-door. He said on 11th June:
  "What I wonder is whether they have realised the treacherous trap-door on which it all stands. It is an alert that I am sounding, yet it is more than an alert—it is an alarm."
  One thing certainly happened. It was an alarm to many holders of sterling because, according to reliable accounts, we lost something like 100 million dollars in capital. And I imagine that the Chancellor must have got rather anxious about this ebullient statement which the Prime Minister made on his own.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): I did not make it on my own.
  Mr. Gaitskell: If the Prime Minister tells me that the Treasury put in his brief all the bit about the treacherous trap-door, I will accept it.
  The Prime Minister: I make my own speeches by myself, but as a matter of fact I took the precaution of having what I was about to say checked by the authorities.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I should be very surprised indeed if the Chancellor's advisers really thought it was a wise thing for the Prime Minister to speak at a moment of exchange difficulty about a treacherous trap-door on which it all stood. The Chancellor himself, as usual, was very much more moderate on the following day and I imagine that he was very glad to be able to speak on the following day. He said:
  "We are holding the position. …"
  And using a mountaineering analogy, he added:
  "It is not a question of getting over a hump. It is much more a question of building up our position steadily over the next two or three years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th June, 1952; Vol. 502, c. 408.]
  Lord Swinton, in another place, said on 3rd July:
  "… I wish people would not talk about 'a crisis.' This is not in the nature of a crisis."
  And then he became medical in his analogy. He said:
  "It is not like a fever where your temperature goes up and you either get the right prescription and take the right medicine or you do not, and then either you are cured or you die."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 3rd July, 1952; Vol. 177, c. 692.]
  1292
  So, although the trap-door was there and although one might not be feeling very well, if one went down one did not go down very far. There was a bed waiting.
  I see that the Chancellor today sides with Lord Swinton in describing this, not as a time of crisis, but as an opportunity. So one can get up from the bed again. Later on the Prime Minister became much more coy as to what this debate would contain, and in answer to various Questions he said various things. In answer to the second supplementary question on 16th July, he said:
  "The House is going to be informed of the very serious measures which are being taken in all fields …"
  He said:
  "…which are being …"
  and not "will be" taken. In answer to the sixth supplementary question, he said:
  "… we are going to have a two days' debate at which very grave and far-reaching matters affecting every branch of our national life, … will have to be brought into a new survey and presentation of our present position."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th July, 1952; Vol. 503, c. 2149–50.]
  When I asked him later what he meant and asked whether he meant "measures" or "matters" he could not remember. I am told that equally after that obviously impromptu answer the Treasury again expressed more alarm at the situation which would be created in the foreign exchange market if the Prime Minister went on making these statements about far-reaching, grave matters and measures. I must say that the Chancellor must be relieved to have got in first on this occasion.
  I hope that the Prime Minister is not feeling that I am trying to stir up controversy between him and the other side. I never noticed that there was any restraint on his part in trying to stir up controversy in Parliament, particularly between the two different parts of the other side of the House.
  The Prime Minister: That is not very difficult.
  Mr. Gaitskell: There is not much difficulty here either. The Chancellor of the Exchequer today gave us very little on which to go and I am bound to follow my own course in this speech to a considerable extent, though I would have

  1293
  wished to have something on which to comment.
  I want to begin by saying a few words about the dollar problem and to emphasise once again, as we must emphasise, that this is not the same thing as the problem of the United Kingdom overall balance of payments. The two things overlap, of course, and they are associated, but it really is dangerous to confuse them.
  May I give one reason why that is so? In 1949 the United Kingdom had a small surplus on its balance of payments and in 1949 the dollar situation was so serious that we were driven right off the pound. It is perfectly obvious, therefore, that one can have a moderately favourable United Kingdom position and nevertheless have a very difficult dollar situation. To some extent the opposite can be true also, and therefore we must draw that distinction and always bear it in mind.
  My first complaint against the Government on the dollar situation is that they have not disclosed their plans. They never told us after the Commonwealth Conference in January exactly how it was proposed that we were going to get into balance—that is the sterling area—with the rest of the world.
  It is true that we were told that we in the United Kingdom had to achieve our balance by the end of the year with the rest of the world, allowing for United States aid, but nothing has been said about what other countries in the sterling area are to do—whether some are to have a surplus or some a deficit, and whether the rest of the area is to be in balance with the European Payments Union or not. We have not even heard from the Chancellor exactly what the target for our dollar exports is to be. Everything is grouped together: we are just told that the whole of our non-sterling trade is to be in balance.
  The only thing with which one can deal in detail therefore is our own contribution; and here I was a little surprised at the rather favourable picture which the Chancellor gave us. I might say, in passing, that this habit of contrasting the first half of 1952 with the second half of 1951 is extremely misleading. It surely is well-known to the Chancellor that the second half of 1951 was extremely abnormal for various reasons.
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  For example, the level of our invisible exports in those six months was no more than £25 million as compared with £250 million in the previous six months. [An HON. MEMBER: "Abadan."] Some of it, no doubt, was due to the loss of Abadan, but that certainly does not explain the whole of it. The Chancellor himself has allowed for a very different position in the case of invisible exports this year. It is equally known to everybody, surely, that in that period the stocks of materials were rising fast in this country and that the volume of our imports was swollen very considerably by that element of stocking up.
  I am going to compare, not the first half of 1952 with the first half of 1951, though there is a case for that, but the average monthly figure for 1952 so far with the average monthly figure for 1951, and in doing so I follow the lead of that well-known paper, the "Financial Times." Here we find, in comparing these two years on that basis, that for 1952 the level of imports was £317 million per month as compared with £326 million for the whole of 1951. That gives us a saving of about £9 million a month, or, say, £108 million in the year as a whole.
  The Chancellor has told us—it is part of his plan—that we must cut imports for 1952 as a whole by £300 million compared with 1951, and if the House will follow me it will be seen quite easily what a tremendous amount of ground there still is to cover. In fact, according to my calculations, we have to make in the second half of this year a further cut of around £35 million a month. That is a very formidable task indeed, but it is all the more formidable when we remember that, I imagine, virtually the whole of this must fall upon non-sterling imports.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not, I think, ever suggested that it was necessary or desirable to reduce imports from the sterling area as an act of deliberate policy, though it may be, for example, that the purchases of wool are reduced because there is a depression in the woollen industry here. If that is so, we have to cut £35 million a month out of a total of some £200 million a month for non-sterling imports at the present time.

  1295
  One is bound to ask: can this be done, and what are the consequences going to be? Can we really hope that cuts on that scale can be made without seriously affecting the level of our stocks? I find it extremely difficult to believe. Are we quite sure that when the Chancellor speaks of stocks he is thinking not merely of Government stocks but of industrial stocks as well? I should like to have some further details from the President of the Board of Trade when he replies.
  There is another matter closely connected with this. I believe that most hon. Members must have been worried during the past six months by the extraordinarily high level at which imports continue to run, and there has been a good deal of rumour and discussion about the delay in imposing the import cuts which were announced—the first lot in November and the second lot in March. I should like to quote a few figures.
  First of all, does the House realise that in the first six months of the year there was actually a rise in dollar imports of £8½ million a month? That is really an extraordinary situation when one considers how serious the dollar situation was. I am also advised that a number of the quotas that have been fixed, and were fixed by the Board of Trade earlier, have already been exceeded.
  The "Financial Times" has some interesting figures here. Most of them are for foodstuffs. Take, for example, biscuits; apparently the monthly average under the quota was £87,500, and the actual average imports were £374,000—that is to say, a figure about four times as much. For cocoa butter £78,000 is the quota and £216,000 is the actual figure. For raw cocoa the figures are £30,000 and £132,000 respectively. I will not go on with the table; perhaps the President of the Board of Trade would look it up and give us his explanation of these rather extraordinary discrepancies.
  I should like to quote one last figure in this connection because it is one in which hon. Members opposite will be particularly interested. It is the figure for the import of fresh soft fruit which was fixed under the quota, according to my information, at £550,000; and, so far
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  as one can work these things out—it is not very easy because the categories differ in the Trade and Navigation Accounts from the original Board of Trade statement—there has been imported, not £550,000 worth, but over £2¼ million worth. If that is so, it suggests that whichever Department is responsible, whether it is the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Food, has been extraordinarily inept and incompetent in this whole business. I hope the President of the Board of Trade will be able to throw some light on the situation.
  If one turns to the European Payments Union balance as a whole, which of course covers the rest of the sterling area as well, here again everyone has been very alarmed by the continual high level at which our deficit has been running. We have been told that not only was it £17 million in June—I am not counting in the special arrangements under E.P.U.—but it is going to be even worse in July.
  What is the reason for this? Can the President of the Board of Trade give us an explanation? Is it that the other members of the Commonwealth have not applied their cuts so rapidly? Is it that there are capital movements involved in these figures? I am bound to say that I feel very little confidence in the Chancellor's assertion that we are going to get so rapidly into balance with the European Payments Union.
  I do not believe, even so, that the short-period dollar outlook is necessarily very grave, and I will tell the House why. In the first place, I suppose we can confidently rely on the fact that the cuts imposed by the rest of the sterling area much later than our own original ones will begin to operate and affect the position of the sterling-dollar account.
  My second reason is a different one. I, personally, think that in the immediate future the prospect in the United States is rather better than it has been recently. I should like to explain why. If one looks over the history of the last three years, it is fairly evident that there is a kind of cycle of demand, stock-building and imports in the United States which has wide, and indeed world-wide, repercussions. In 1949 there was more than a mere movement of stock in the United States. There was a recession—a fairly mild one, but it affected imports and it

  1297
  affected the prices of raw materials and created, to a very large extent, the difficulties which led to our devaluation.
  In 1950 the opposite movement took place. There was an expansion of demand in the United States following, and even before, the Korean war; there was a period of building up of stocks there, a rise in raw material prices, and of course greater dollar earnings in the sterling area. That happened to coincide with another favourable movement, namely, the cutting down of imports from the dollar area by the whole sterling area; so that both sides were working in favour of the sterling area.
  The Prime Minister: A sort of trap-door?
  Mr. Gaitskell: No, the appropriate analogy would probably be a figure of eight, if the Prime Minister is interested. He must not be too tender on these points. After all, he is not very tender in his comments sometimes. In 1950 exactly the opposite took place, and again in 1951 the contrary movement. The level of United States imports fell, not throughout the whole of the year but in the second half of the year, this time not because of any fall in production but simply because the rate of stock-building declined in American industry.
  It is a most alarming and striking phenomenon that even a change in the rate at which stocks are built up should produce such really devastating consequences for the rest of the world through the decline in United States imports. That happened, and simultaneously, of course, with the repercussions of the large earnings that had been made only six months before, the volume of imports by the sterling area from the dollar area was rising, so that the position was developing again much as it did in 1949. I believe that we are now moving back on the next bit of the figure of eight, that is to say, the United States imports are beginning to rise because inventories are again being accumulated, while, at the same time, we are getting the benefits of the various cuts made here.
  Therefore, although I cannot say that I think what the Government have done in the way of restricting imports has been either successful or well administered, nevertheless, quite apart from anything they may do, I think that the situation
  1298
  at the moment may be rather better. But I think that we should be very unwise if we reckoned on anything more than a very short period of recovery. After all, the present dollar-sterling situation is a most precarious one, despite an extraordinarily high level of activity in the United States.
  One is bound to admit that the 1950 price relationship—the very high prices for wool, tin and rubber that obtained—was quite abnormal, and I do not see any likelihood of it reappearing, but if it be agreed that small changes in the rate at which stocks are built up in the United States can produce so much effect, we cannot but ask ourselves what will be the consequences if and when there is anything like a serious recession in the United States.
  One other cause for anxiety is that the United States are now adopting a policy of price support for many of their major raw materials. That means that if there were to be any sort of recession we could be fairly sure that the prices of those commodities would not be allowed to fall. In the sterling area as a whole we shall therefore be faced with the terms of trade moving sharply against us, that is to say, we shall be losing on our earnings all the time while having to pay as much as before for those dollar commodities.
  The Prime Minister: Is not that pessimistic?
  Mr. Gaitskell: It is pessimistic so far as the longer run is concerned. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman—who now takes such an interest in these questions and is making a speech tomorrow—has any comment to make. If so, I have no objection to his interjection if he wishes to join in.
  It is these fears which led some of my hon. and right hon. Friends to forecast a crisis before very long. I do not think that anybody can tell if and when there is to be a major recession in the United States. I offer no special views on that; but although I do not think that we need anticipate a very serious decline of trade, we ought to be considerably worried about the situation, for the reasons I have given—that even a very slight decline can produce such very grave consequences.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what he thinks

  1299
  is to happen to our trade when the rearmament programme in America is completed early next year? What effect does he think that will have?
  Mr. Gaitskell: I do not want to go too far into the question of American policy. The short answer is that it depends on what the American Government does and what American Government does it.
  What are the lessons for our own policy so far as the long-term situation is concerned? Some people even now speak as though the convertibility of the pound was a remedy for our present situation.
  Sir Waldron Smithers: It is.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I see that the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) still believes that. It is nice to feel that he is still with us, ready to voice an unusual opinion. He is supported in some quarters—possibly inside the House; certainly outside it. In one sense there is convertibility today. If one is an American exporter to this country and acquires sterling by one's exports one can convert that sterling into dollars. Equally, if one is a member of the sterling area and holds sterling balances here, in the technical sense those balances are convertible into dollars.
  But that is not what we really mean by convertibility. What we mean is that we cease to discriminate against dollar countries. There has been a good deal of talk about the importance of this. Indeed, the Minister of State for Economic Affairs is the chairman of a committee set up by the Commonwealth Conference to investigate that very matter. I hope that we shall hear something from the Minister of State for Economic Affairs in the course of this debate. After all, the committee have now been at work for six months and I should have thought that they must have reached some conclusions. At any rate, I will give him my conclusions in advance and if he has not any of his own he can comment on them.
  I would say that we should not contemplate adopting a policy of nondiscrimination in our present circumstances. The only consequence of a policy of that kind is bound to be a severe deflation here. In the circum-
  1300
  stances, we should be forced to deflate or to devalue. Deflation would mean grave unemployment and the waste of resources and, if we chose devaluation instead, possibly a complete breakdown—because I do not feel sure that we should reach a position of equilibrium even if we did devalue—or certainly a sharp loss through adverse terms of trade and a consequent fall in our standard of living.
  Let us agree that the conditions of convertibility in the full sense are, first, adequate gold reserves—I would say at least four or five times their present level—and, secondly, the prospect of a balance between the sterling and dollar worlds, without any restrictions. Both those conditions seem to me to be quite unrealisable for a very long time to come and it is simply misleading the world to talk in any different sense.
  I would ask the President of the Board of Trade to make clear what are the views of the Government on this matter. There are lots of discussions in the Press which are really moves to push us in the direction of convertibility. I hope that the President will agree with me and make it plain that the Government do not intend to do anything of that kind. That being so, by positive steps we must seek to maximise our dollar earnings and minimise our dollar expenditure. That leads me to say a few words about the European Payments Union. I was disappointed with the Chancellor's remarks about this. Since the Budget a new phase has started in the European Payments Union and a new agreement has been reached, but he said not a word about it.
  I should have thought that it would have been merely common sense to try to restrict our dollar expenditure to the dollar area and try to avoid paying gold out anywhere else. It was with that in mind that we negotiated the original European Payments Union agreement. I confess straight away that while I was anxious to see the establishment of multilateral trade in Europe, and the possibility of deficits and surpluses being offset one against the other between different countries, nevertheless I should have preferred to see no gold element in the scheme. That is an extreme point of view but it is one which, in the light of the dollar situation, seemed to be not

  1301
  entirely unreasonable. We already had arrangements of that kind with the Scandinavian States and it would have been a matter of trying to make them general.
  At the opposite extreme, some of the countries concerned would have liked to have seen a completely full gold standard applying in Europe and they were not prepared to join a club where it was possible for one country to hold an indefinite amount in the way of balances in the Union and for another country to borrow an indefinite amount from it. I do not propose to argue the matter in detail again. There was a compromise in which a certain amount of gold was brought into the scheme.
  But one principle was laid down which, I thought, was of the greatest importance. That was that each member of the Union should try to maintain itself in balance, neither in surplus nor in deficit with the Union. An obligation was placed upon creditor as well as debtor countries to get themselves into equilibrium. That was one of the essential principles, and one of the things that worry me about the new situation is that it appears to have been abandoned. I should have liked to have gone further still. I think it is a pity that the Union rules did not permit discrimination in favour of debtor countries and against creditor countries. There again, that was not acceptable to other countries and we all realise that in these international negotiations we always have to compromise.
  Now, for two years, we have had an experience of E.P.U., and I venture to say that those two years bear out the view I held at the time and expressed—that the credit swings provided were not large enough. In fact, there have been very large changes. First of all, we had Germany heavily in deficit and Holland heavily in deficit; then we were very much in surplus; and then the swing went the other way and we came into heavy deficit. But when we were in surplus, at least we did abide by the rules. We relaxed import restrictions, we deliberately encouraged trade with those other countries and, in fact, largely as a result of that, we fell into deficit ourselves.
  What I feel is that other countries now in surplus ought to be doing the same thing as we did before and, from what I
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  know of the discussions, I do not think that the Chancellor and his colleagues insisted nearly enough upon that principle. What, after all, are these new proposals? First of all, there is a greater amount of gold commitments now in the scheme in the early stages of indebtedness than there was before, and that is bound to create a far worse fear of losing gold and therefore a restrictive mentality among the various members of the Union.
  Secondly, there is to be a guarantee fund. Out of our very inadequate reserves we have to provide £27 million as our contribution. There is some vague reference to creditors being the first to subscribe, but no idea of how that is to be done. Worst of all, in the case of Belgium, which has been in almost continual surplus, there seems now to be a recognition that she may go on being in surplus. I remember the Chancellor speaking with some pride of the fact that the Belgians were, after all, going to agree to run up some further credits with the Union, provided they could get half of it in gold again.
  There should not be any talk of the Belgians continuing to be in surplus. We should say, "No; if you want to go on you can allow the credits, but you cannot go on taking out gold indefinitely"; because if we continue to give that incentive, of course, they will continue to take it. I have no doubt that they would like to cover their own dollar deficit by sucking gold out of the rest of Europe, but if we get into that situation we shall all be doing it, all clamping down on trade with each other in Europe in order to try to protect our gold reserves and to acquire a surplus with Europe in order to meet our dollar deficit.
  I therefore feel that the Chancellor has allowed the new agreement to take a form which is quite contrary to our interests and quite contrary to the right principle if we are interested in European unity and in a greater volume of trade in Europe, and interested in helping our own dollar situation.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I should not wish either myself or Her Majesty's Government to be associated with the right hon. Gentleman's criticisms of the Belgian Government. I do not accept them as being correct and I think that they should not be made.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The right hon. Gentleman must speak for himself. I only wish he had done so; that is part of the trouble. He did not say anything about it at the time. Perhaps his right hon. Friend will do so later. I certainly intend to criticise the Belgian Government for their point of view. They know my point of view very well. I cannot see any difficulty about this.
  The trouble is that if we have this sort of system we shall have a cumulative sequence of import cuts. We impose import cuts, and then somebody else does the same because they get into difficulties, and so trade is restricted all over Europe whereas if, at the same time, the countries with surpluses were being obliged to expand their imports, we should have a counteracting disinflationary force.
  I want to put two other questions in connection with E.P.U. There was an agreement, I believe signed in 1950, which is generally known as the Katz-Gaitskell Agreement, under which the American Government undertook to refund to us in dollars any loss of gold which we sustained as a result of European countries who were members of the Union drawing down their balances with us. I believe that under that agreement we have been paid a certain number of dollars and are due to receive other dollars. Would the President of the Board of Trade, or whoever else is to speak in the debate for the Government, please give us the figures? Is it the case that we have obtained in this way 40 million dollars—or more than that, or less than that? I believe it is something of that kind and it should be a considerable help to the dollar situation.
  The second point is much more important and it relates to the problem of the cost of our Forces in Germany. The history of this problem, as far as we are concerned, is quite simple. When I was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) was Foreign Secretary, we made it perfectly clear in Washington that we could not accept any additional expenditure as a result of German re-armament and any consequent fall there might be in the German contribution to the cost of our occupation Forces. I took the view at that time—and certainly the position of our gold reserves is no better—that we
  1304
  could not possibly afford any expenditure of that kind.
  When the Foreign Secretary made a statement on this matter I am bound to say that he gave a far from clear account of the situation. I and some of my hon. Friends endeavoured to clarify it by asking supplementary questions. Where do we stand in this? Have the Government taken no steps to protect themselves against the danger of having to meet very large commitments for our Forces in Germany after the German Army begins to be built up? I realise that probably in the current fiscal year the problem may not be a serious one, but after 1953 it may be very serious indeed, and I had hoped that the Government would at least have made their position plain to all our Allies—that we really could not accept any additional burden from that quarter whatever. I hope that we may have a full and clear statement about this matter during the debate. I am sure it will assist the debate which is to take place later in the week.
  Turning to the long-term dollar problem, I do not want to delay for very long, but I must say this: once we reject the solution of convertibility, it seems to me to talk as some recent correspondence in "The Times" did—as though there are alternative solutions to this: either we rely on expanding our exports to the dollar area or we rely on replacing our dollar imports by imports from elsewhere—is quite misleading. Obviously, we have to adopt both courses and there is no inconsistency in them at all. There is nothing new in this. We were doing it for five years and with very considerable success. We very substantially increased the proportion of our imports from non-dollar areas.
  We do not know exactly what the position is going to be in the United States of America. There may be a continually high level of demand, with rising imports and a big Point Four programme. There is also the possibility of a recession, even a slump, a drastic fall in imports and an end to Government overseas grants. We all know that the consequences of this last possibility would be very serious indeed.
  Personally, I do not think the latter is a very likely combination, but it seems to me that the enormous importance of the United States situation points to the

  1305
  need of what I suggested in a speech I made in America—an international conference with the Americans to consider the whole situation. After all, it is now eight years since the Bretton Woods Conference took place. I think many of the principles and ideas which were thought out then have been seen in various ways to be inappropriate in post-war circumstances.
  Although I know there will be differences of opinion, I should like to see a serious effort made both by Governments and by experts together to sit around a table, to see whether we cannot devise new possibilities of economic co-operation to prevent the very grave consequences which might follow anything like a recession in the United States, and generally to see what further steps can be taken to deal fundamentally with the dollar problem.
  Of course, I have no doubt that one aspect of this solution must be a development of production in the underdeveloped areas. I am not going to say anything about that, because my right hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), who hopes to speak later in the debate, will deal with it in much greater detail, but I must say, in passing, that the possibility of encouraging increasing supplies of materials from the sterling area will, I hope, be one of the major points to be considered at the conference in November.
  But if, meanwhile, the dollar problem remains, we have to consider, I think, the operations of the sterling area, and one of my criticisms of the Commonwealth Conference in January—why I think it was a failure, despite the touchiness of the Chancellor on the subject—is that nothing seems to have been done to tighten up or co-ordinate the policies of the different members more effectively. I freely admit that it is open to the Chancellor to say, "Why did not you do it when you were in office?" Well, we were not faced till right at the end with anything like so serious a position; but I think he knows quite well that it was a pre-occupation of mine, and I certainly think a great deal remains to be done in that way.
  It seems to me that if we are operating a dollar pool on a basis of general agreement, from which each country is legally—indeed, morally—free to draw dollars when it wishes, we really run the risk
  1306
  of a serious breakdown in the system unless we have a much greater co-ordination than we have had hitherto. I should like to ask, has anything been done about that? Are, for instance, officials meeting regularly now to try to co-ordinate policy more successfully?
  There is one other point I would mention also in that connection. I do not think it can be denied that the freedom to export capital from this country to the sterling area was one of the factors which resulted in unusually high sterling balances being held here. I am not in any way criticising the export of capital for genuine development purposes. Indeed, it is obviously essential. But I am saying that the export of hot money, or of capital which is simply to evade higher rates of taxation here, accompanied by higher balances held by those other countries, whether South African or Australian balances, here, has created a danger and was one of the factors responsible for the tremendous run on the dollar pool which occurred in the second half of last year.
  Although I realise that this is a delicate matter, I would suggest to the Government that it is one of the questions that will have to be faced if we are to go on with the sterling area as it is now. I am not saying, of course—I repeat—that the export of capital from this country should be stopped, but I am saying that we ought to see that whatever is allowed to be exported is employed for productive purposes and does not compromise the working of the sterling area.
  Mr. Robert Boothby: Does not that presuppose some effective co-ordinating machinery for the sterling area as a whole?
  Mr. Gaitskell: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I was a moment or two ago stressing the importance of that. It is one of the most astonishing features of the situation that the O.E.E.C. has a large staff—that every member of it has a large and expert delegation in Paris—but that the sterling area has nothing whatever: no central staff, no delegations—nothing; and it is certainly overdue that we have machinery of that kind.
  Let me pass for a moment to the question of defence and exports—so far as one can, that is, in the light of the very obscure statement that we have heard from the Chancellor. Of course, it is not

  1307
  surprising in all the circumstances, with the difficulties we face in the United Kingdom and in the sterling area, that people should say, "Well, we must cut defence." Of course, it is a burden to have to carry re-armament. Manpower in the Forces, industrial capacity, materials, manpower in industry—all of these in time would be available for civilian purposes if they were not used for defence.
  We all can agree on that. It may be the case that during the period of transition there may be difficulty in getting the whole of it, but, in the long run, the economic gain of a reduction of the burden of defence is, or course, undeniable. But then, of course, we did not start re-armament because we thought it would cost us nothing. We knew it was a burden, but we regarded it as a necessary burden.
  I think we can all agree that the issue of defence or civilian use, whether for exports or home investment or the home market, must be a matter of balance—that we must always compare the military and the economic implications; both of them, not one without the other. I think we can also agree that our defence programme here is, after all—and was always—related to our commitments overseas. I am not for the moment discussing whether those commitments should or should not have been accepted, but it is quite wrong to assume that the defence programme was not closely related to them.
  That leads me to my next point, on which, I hope, the Prime Minister will say something when he speaks tomorrow. It does seem to me quite wrong that each member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation should try to settle its defence programme independently. These are matters which, because they relate to the commitments of all of us, must surely be discussed in common; and, if possible, agreement should be reached in common; and one of the points that rather worries me—though we do not know exactly what is implied—is that the Government may, without consulting our allies in this, have simply taken a unilateral decision.
  It may be the right decision. I do not know, without having all the facts in front of me, and the comparison of the economic consequences. In those circum-
  1308
  stances, it is difficult to decide. But I am quite sure of this, that it would be far better that this should be discussed in common, rather than that each country should take a stand on its own, because—and here I come to something which I, personally, attach a great deal of importance to—there is real danger of anxiety and misunderstanding within the alliance—in all these areas.
  There are many people in this country who think, not so much that the total level of Western defence is too high, but that we are carrying an unfair share of the burden. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I think that that is a very widely held view, but let me say to my hon. and right hon. Friends—and I am not dissenting from it—that I also am quite sure that the same opinion is held in virtually every other member country of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. [An HON. MEMBER: "Even Belgium?"] Even Belgium, and certainly in the United States. And we shall always get that sort of feeling unless, somehow or other, we can get people to know through publicity—unless we take the trouble to give that publicity to convince them—that the burden-sharing operation is being worked, and that what has been decided is decided by all of us and, in the light of all available evidence, as far as possible between the different countries.
  Therefore, I do urge upon the Government, whatever they may be deciding to do in this matter, to pay special attention to that part of the matter. That was, after all, the main reason—one of the main reasons, anyway—why at the Ottawa Conference we proposed the setting up of the temporary committee—the so-called "Wise Men Committee"—and I am bound to say to the right hon. Gentleman that I think the treatment of its report has been extremely disappointing. We have heard nothing about it. It has received no publicity.
  I do not suppose there is more than a fraction of the population here who have the slightest idea of what proportion of the national income of the United States, Italy, Canada is being spent on defence at the moment. There should have been a great publicity campaign dealing with all that. Yet nothing of the kind was done. It was put away. It was shelved—pigeon-holed—as though it were something we did not want to talk about too much.

  1309
  One other important matter on defence the Chancellor referred to was the offshore purchases—that is to say, purchases by the United States of equipment here. I must say I take a rather less favourable view of that development than the Chancellor himself. It is, of course, easy to say we are getting some more dollars out of it. May be, But, after all, if this puts an additional burden on our engineering industry over and above what we were carrying before it is simply going to divert materials and manpower from exports or home investment to that purpose, and it is going to leave us surely in this situation, that we are going to do just as we did during the war—provide more armaments for our allies while they are getting civilian trade.
  That is, I think, a serious danger. Again, I do not wish to say—far from it—that this is the kind of thing that should be settled unilaterally, but it is a matter which we are entitled to expect the Government to press in international conversations with our allies.
  Mr. Bevan: Before my right hon. Friend leaves that point, he has said on two occasions that before action about defence estimates is taken by the Government, and before they sell arms abroad, there should, first of all, be consultation with the North Atlantic Powers. Is he therefore opposing the immediate reduction in the arms programme? Is he not aware that the United States have already cut their arms programme quite substantially; and does he say that we should consult the United States before we cut ours?
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am expressing regret that during the last months the different members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation have acted independently in this matter. I think it has had a thoroughly bad effect on the alliance. I agree with my right hon. Friend that the United States have cut their programme; but where do we go to with that? Is everybody to go on in that way, cutting one programme after another? If so, what will happen to Western defence at the end of it? Surely, on a point of procedure, that is quite indefensible. We must somehow or other get together with our allies and settle this thing together. That is all I say.
  Now I must turn very briefly to the United Kingdom position. I shall leave
  1310
  most of that to my right hon. Friends, but I must say that if there has been progress in the United Kingdom balance of payments situation it is, surely, largely because of automatic factors happening, not because of any action taken by the Government, but because of a change in the general economic climate.
  Now, there is nothing wrong with that. When he put forward his plan the Chancellor said, if I remember rightly, that he wished to improve the balance of payments position by £600 million. Of that £600 million no less than £400 million was to be at nobody's expense. When I say nobody's expense, I mean here in this country. One hundred and fifty million pounds of it was to come from improved terms of trade; another £100 million from improved invisible exports—the reflection, if you like, the reaction after last year, the change in the general economic situation; another £150 million was to be found not by taking out of stock in the sense of destocking, but because it was no longer necessary for stocking up. All we were left with in a reduction of resources was £200 million.
  If we look at what has happened so far, the important part of the improvement, I think, has been in the terms of trade. The Chancellor so far has guessed right on that. Whether it will continue, I do not know. I am very glad it is so. I, also, anticipated earlier in the year that the terms of trade would be better. Whether the invisible exports position is better, I do not know.
  When we turn to imports and actual Cuts in consumption, as I have already explained, they seem to be the one thing that has not happened to any great extent so far, so that I think the Chancellor should be a little careful when he goes about the country talking of sacrifices, because in a general sense there has not yet been any sacrifice. There has been a redistribution of income, but that is a very different matter.
  Now I turn to another factor of great importance, to which again the Chancellor seemed to me to pay much too little attention, and that is production. I should have thought it was clear that so far the outlook there was very disappointing indeed. I realise that part of this is due to lack of demand. It may be that the home demand for textiles is

  1311
  at last beginning to pick up again. I think there is some evidence to that effect. Some of it is perhaps due to the shortage of steel.
  I think we are entitled to ask the Government: Are they satisfied with the present level of unemployment? Do they take the view that a figure of 440,000 in mid-June is one which, in all the circumstances, they would be prepared to see continue. It means, I suppose, a figure for the end of the year of somewhere between 600,000 and 700,000, because seasonally the situation is now much more favourable. What is their policy here? Are they trying to absorb that unemployment, or are they saying, "No, we think you want at least as much as that, or more perhaps"? I think that we ought to have a statement from them about that.
  I had thought of saying something about monetary policy, in the light not only of the Chancellor's comments but also of the O.E.E.C. report on this subject, but I propose to leave that on one side, making this comment only. I hope the Chancellor realises that if one chooses one's economist carefully one can be fairly sure of what he will say; and if one chooses five or six of them carefully one can equally be fairly sure of what they will say. I would, however, also draw his attention to the fact that that report does not by any means reflect universal opinion among economists. I would, indeed, remind him of the comments, and very critical comments, of the Economic Committee of O.E.E.C., and I hope that the Government will follow the O.E.E.C. Economic Committee and not the experts' report in their general attitude on this matter.
  I think we can all agree—and there is no reason to dispute it—that we must build up our exports further. We must clearly work for a surplus. There is nothing new in that; we have said that long ago. The question is: How exactly are we to do that? Here, again, we had only vague generalisations from the Chancellor. I venture to suggest that the time has come when we need rather more guidance to British industry on this subject, and I suggest that if we are looking ahead, if we are really aiming at a surplus of £200 million or £300 million a year—which is what we ought to be aiming at—there is not very much chance of
  1312
  getting it unless there is a substantial change in the pattern of British industry.
  The change which I think is clearly the right one is a switch over to the metal using, metal goods industries, the engineering industries, from the consumer goods, domestic soft goods industries. It seems to me that, at the moment at any rate, it is extremely difficult to expand exports in consumer goods—although, of course, we must try to do so—whereas in the capital goods field we are not able to export simply because we cannot supply.
  It might be said that that will be only a temporary phenomenon. I do not believe it. I think it is far more likely, looking ahead over the next five or six years, that we can see, at any rate short of a major recession in the United States, a continuing demand for the output of our engineering industries.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: Heavy engineering.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Not only heavy engineering, but light engineering as well. Both, I think, are important in this connection. There will certainly be an immense demand for these products. For development work in producing more raw materials and producing food in other parts of the world we can be fairly sure of a market here, not only under boom conditions, but if a recession should come and we had to go back to bilateral agreements we should have a far more powerful bargaining weapon. I therefore suggest that a definite line should be given by the Government on this matter.
  I was glad to hear the Chancellor's approving remarks about the coal situation. I thought he might have said a kind word about the National Coal Board while he was at it, but no doubt they are so accustomed to abuse from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that they will not notice it very much. I would say this to him. Although we are all glad to see the coal situation improving, he is no doubt aware that the possibilities of greater exports this year flow largely from the fact that consumption has been at a lower level than last year. That is partly due to the accident of fine weather and partly due to the fact that we are not getting an increase in production in other indus-

  1313
  tries. With a combination of bad weather and good output we should have a very different situation in regard to coal. Therefore, there is certainly no reason for complacency there.
  I realise that steel is one of the great problems, and I must say that I think it is very regrettable that at this moment, when expansion in steel production in this country is probably the most important thing of all to provide the basis for the engineering expansion I mentioned, the Government should have seen fit to introduce their ridiculous offer for handing back the industry to private enterprise. It cannot be denied that this—what is it called?—this agency which is to hold the shares and generally keep an eye on the different companies in the steel industry will create uncertainty; it is likely to hamper capital development at the very moment when it ought to be pushed right ahead.
  The Chancellor held out a queer looking olive branch on that subject this afternoon, but from his own point of view I hope that he, as the Minister chiefly responsible for the economic situation of the country, will realise the danger of that, and even now call a halt to this very regrettable step.
  I refer, finally, to the wages position. I do not think that there is much doubt about our attitude on this. We realise, of course, the danger to the export trade of wage increases causing inflation. Of course, the Trades Union Congress realise that. There is nothing new in this. We have discussed it again and again in the past. We have had a very reasonable attitude adopted by the trade union leadership, but one must admit that it is a difficult thing to get into operation a spirit of restraint in industry.
  We cannot ignore, in that connection, that it is mixed up with the whole issue of distribution—in other words, of "fair shares"—both between different sets of workers and between workers and employers. I can only repeat what I have said on earlier occasions, that if the Chancellor wants the trade union leaders and trade unionists, too, to behave in a responsible manner, he must do something to help them, instead of placing difficulties in their way.
  First, we have the Budget with the deliberate increase in food prices. Now
  1314
  we have the Minister of Labour taking action on it with regard to the distributive workers' wage increases. In my judgment, the wages council procedure in which he has a constitutional right and, indeed, a duty, if he thinks so, to send back decisions is not an instrument which can or should be used to impose a policy of wage restriction. I frankly admit that when my right hon. Friend was Minister of Labour he used this procedure. What happened? It was sent back to him, it was reaffirmed, it was brought into operation straight away and no gain resulted from it.
  I am surprised that the officials who advise the right hon. Gentleman did not point out to him that it was not going to lead him anywhere. We cannot really impose wage restraint by picking out one bit of a statute which gives power to fix wages in low paid industries, and say, "Right, we will put the freeze on there." That is quite impossible. If that is done it is bound to be regarded, as all the distributive workers do regard it, as simply a discrimination against them.
  Mr. Spencer Summers: Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that he is completely misrepresenting the facts in attributing to the Minister concerned a deliberate policy of freezing wages?
  Mr. Gaitskell: The Minister has evidently sent back his proposal for wage increases on the basis of the Chancellor's statement. No one questions his sincerity or integrity in this matter. I am telling him that he will not get anywhere by this policy because it is not fair.
  Another thing which the Government must understand is that they will not get co-operation, in my view, from the Trades Union Congress and from the workers of this country unless the workers feel that they are behaving fairly. That brings me to one other question which I should like to ask the Minister of Labour. Is it the view of the Government that the wage earners of this country must be prepared to accept a cut in real wages? Is it the view of the Government that they should not have their wages advanced even to keep pace with the cost of living?
  Mr. Osborne Mr. Osborne rose—
  Mr. Gaitskell: I cannot give way.

  1315
  I think that we ought to have a little clarification on that point. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why. According to the Government's plans, there is to be no fall in consumption in total for the country as a whole. If he is going to say that the wage earners have to accept a cut in real wages, that means that someone else's consumption is going to go up. If that is their policy, let me tell them that it is not a starter. They will never succeed in getting a united effort on that basis. I have some reason for saying this because whatever the Chancellor may have done about the excess Profits Tax and E.P.L., dividends are, in fact, still rising and are about 8 per cent., the latest figure, as compared with last year.
  In those circumstances, we must have regard to the fairness or otherwise of the policy which the Government are adopting. That is our major criticism of the Government. We recognise the reality of the economic problem, and we know the effects of the war and post-war period very well indeed. We tried to teach hon. Members about it when we were in Government. We know the loss caused by adverse terms of trade and low invisible exports. At last they are beginning to learn. We know the difficulties of trying to maintain ourselves as a great Power. We find very little signs of the Government dealing adequately with the situation. The improvement in trade has, to a large extent, been automatic or the results of import cuts, which certainly no one seeks to oppose.
  Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman devoted the major part of his speech to saying that import cuts do not work. Why does he say that the result is now due to import cuts?
  Mr. Gaitskell: I said that they did not work so far as they could have done. I did not say that they did not work at all. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give me credit for more honesty than that.
  Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: We used to.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The improvement of trade is automatic, but the fact remains that production and exports are lagging at the moment, and there are no signs of any plans for a long-term solution. The
  1316
  fact is that the Government do not believe in planning but find themselves unable to escape from it. Their half-heartedness and hesitation in these circumstances leads from one delay to another. They favour out-of-date economic doctrines which are really consistent only with a level of unemployment, which they shrink from for political reasons. They pander to the vested interests behind them only to find that they lose still further support in the the country. They pursue a policy of social re-action and find themselves facing serious industrial trouble. Is it surprising, in these circumstances, that neither we nor the country have any confidence in them whatsoever?
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. Ralph Assheton: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) has covered such a very large field that I know he will not expect me to follow him all over it. In any case, I only propose to detain the House for a short time. If I may make one observation with regard to the question of wages, which the right hon. Gentleman referred to in the latter part of his speech, I am reminded of the time I spent at the Ministry of Labour. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks it right that, at this stage, when many of these industries are now quite well enough equipped to have a proper full blown negotiating machinery between workers and employers, such industries should still have trade councils or trade boards. Could they not now reach the stage of having full blown negotiating machinery?
  I think that until we get that situation the Minister of Labour will constantly find himself in an awkward position, and I should like to avoid that. I entirely agree with the line which he took because, after all, what the Chancellor had said was very important. Many of these bodies had not had the opportunity to consider it, and it was reasonable for the Minister to ask them to consider it. I do not propose to touch on the question of wages in general. I want to discuss one or two other matters, and, of course, to support the Motion which the Prime Minister put on the Order Paper, and which was moved by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in such very sincere terms.

  1317
  The Prime Minister said, "We must pad our way." That is a very plain statement. The Prime Minister uses very plain language. A great many people do not understand the economists' jargon to which they are frequently subjected these days. They do not understand "balance of payments," the "dollar gap," the "dollar pool," "sterling balances" all those phrases mean very little to a great many people in this country. They only mean anything to the people who have studied these matters. A great many people, in all walks of life, do not study these matters, and do not understand what these phrases mean.
  Mr. Alfred Robens: Nonsense
  Mr. Assheton: The right hon. Gentleman can say that this is nonsense, but I am expressing my view—
  Mr. Robens: The right hon. Gentleman is completely out of touch.
  Mr. Assheton: I am saying that there are only a few people who understand these economic phrases, who know what they mean and who have studied these things. What the Prime Minister said was that we must pay our way, and that is absolutely plain. If we are not paying our way, it is clear that we must earn more or spend less, or do a bit of both. I prefer the idea of earning more because it is not so disagreeable as spending less, but that may not be everybody's view. I should like to think that as far as possible in this world people get an opportunity to do as they like, but the people who want to have more must be prepared to work for it.
  How can we reach a state of affairs when as a country we shall he earning more or spending less? I suggest that we first stop nagging at everyone to work harder and better and export more, and instead of that see that it pays people to do so. That is the more sensible approach. I suggest to the House and to the Prime Minister a Nine Months' Plan to pay our way and set the people free to earn their living. The four points with which I shall deal are taxation, expenditure, housing and currency.
  In the first place, taxation at its present level is highly inflationary. It is raising prices and the cost of production. It ought to be reduced. If we reduced taxation—I am now talking particularly about direct
  1318
  taxation—we should reduce prices all round and reduce the cost of living, and both of those are very important objectives. What is more important still, we should reduce costs and would thus enable this country to export more. We are fast being priced out of some of our export markets, and the burden of taxation on business is reflected in the prices which exporters have to charge for their goods. Thus, it is vitally important for those two reasons to reduce taxation.
  In addition to that, to reduce taxation encourages work and, moreover, it increases savings. If there is less taxation there is more opportunity to save, and it is more important now than it has ever been to increase saving because the country has never been as short of capital as it is today. We have been spending capital like water for the last 12 years and we have not given anyone the opportunity to build up capital. Businesses all over the country are desperately short of capital. Hon. Members can see that if they look at the balance sheets of both large and small companies; many companies have large commitments and are desperately short of cash. It is difficult for companies to get capital, and, in addition, the rates of interest are high.
  If all those things will follow from a reduction in taxation, is it not highly desirable that taxation should be reduced? I suggest that by the end of our Nine Months' Plan the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have announced to the House that he will take 2s. off the standard rate of Income Tax. I cannot expect my right hon. Friend to answer that until the Budget.
  How are we to do that? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am not so innocent that I did not expect that question to be asked. We must cut down expenditure. Where can we cut it down? There are one or two matters that I want the House to examine. First of all, there is the Ministry of Food. Cannot we get rid of it altogether by the end of the nine months' period and thus end the Government monopoly on the buying of food? I believe we could. The war has been over for seven years. I believe we are about the only country this side of the Iron Curtain which still has food rationing.
  Seven years after the war it is still illegal for a man to buy a box of choco-

  1319
  lates for his girl or a leg of mutton or a pound of sugar for his larder without a licence from the Government. It is a ridiculous situation. Not only are all the human beings in the country rationed; so are all the cows, pigs, hens and other animals. The system is being operated by 15,000 admirable servants of the Ministry of Food. It is a tremendous burden on the community, and I believe that we should be able to get rid of it within nine months.
  Mr. Harold Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way to enable me to put a serious point?
  Mr. Assheton: If I give way I may begin saying many controversial things.
  Mr. Davies: The point relates to animals and animal feedingstuffs.
  Mr. Assheton: I had better finish my point first. The system of controls is one which rations scarcity. Freedom would produce plenty. We have heard much about fair shares. I believe a man who works harder ought to be able to eat better. We want fair shares, not equal shares.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government upon his succes with the housing programme, which seems to be embarrassing the Government's expenditure figures.
  Mr. Harold Davies: The Minister has embarrassed the right hon. Gentleman with the fight that he has put up.
  Mr. Assheton: My right hon. Friend has not embarrassed me. He is doing well. He is getting the houses built. I believe that a lot of hon. Members opposite do not like it, but we are very pleased with the Minister of Housing and Local Government. Nevertheless, somehow or other my right hon. Friend must reduce the burden of cost on the taxpayers and ratepayers, for they are too high. Much the same thing happened after the first world war; the price of houses went up enormously, sometimes four or five-fold, and then after a period the prices fell again, but it was not until private enterprise had really been brought into it that the costs were brought down and houses which had cost £1,100 or £1,200 to build came down to about £400.
  1320
  Several things must be done to help my right hon. Friend reduce costs. We must look at the whole question of the Rent Restriction Acts to begin with and see the effects on the community. As property owners do not get enough from such rents even to keep property in repair, houses are falling down nearly as fast as my right hon. Friend is getting them built. That is not very sensible, and we must check it. We must also abolish the development levy. It is a tremendous handicap to private house builders. Its abolition would remove a check on private building and would also save £300 million which the Government will have to pay to the owners of the expropriated development rights.
  I should like to get rid right away of licensing for the building of houses up to a certain size. That could be done without any detriment to the community. Every house built would be an additional house built. Anyone who builds a house now against the huge Government subsidies which are given to houses built with public money is really a bit of a hero, for it is not much of a proposition There is tremendous competition from houses which are subsidised by the Government to the extent of £40 a year, an enormous burden on the ratepayer and the taxpayer. People who are ready to build houses of a reasonable size should be able to go ahead and do so; each one built would reduce the burden on the taxpayer and the ratepayer.
  The last point I want to make about housing shows one of the ways we shall get the money to cut Income Tax. In the Budget there is a figure of £364 million for loans to local authorities. Before the war these local authorities, except for the small ones like rural district councils which were not very strong financially, had to borrow money themselves in the market, and one of the advantages of that system was that the more cautious and more conservatively managed local authorities could borrow their money rather cheaper than some of the others. One of the consequences was that there was no figure below the line in the national Budget of £364 million, which is provided under the present system. If that figure can be disposed of there could be considerable cuts in Income Tax.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman no doubt realises that under the system

  1321
  of which he speaks local authorities in the coal, steel and textile areas had to pay 6 per cent. and even 8 per cent. for money for loan purposes, and that very often the Public Works Loan Board would lend no money at all. What he is suggesting now is that the poorer local authorities in the older industrial districts upon which we depend should be handed over to the moneylenders.
  Mr. Assheton: Not at all. I could not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman more. I know how much was paid for the loans raised before the war, and he is quite wrong in saying that they cost 6 per cent. to 8 per cent.
  Mr. Bevan: Not now.
  Mr. Assheton: If he will look back at the greater part of the loans raised by local authorities by glancing at the Stock Exchange lists, the right hon. Gentleman will not find one as high as 8 per cent. I do not think he will find many at 6 per cent.
  Mr. Bevan: Not now.
  Mr. Assheton: He will not find any at as high rates as that, although money was dear at one time after the First World War. It is untrue to say that local authorities in those areas could not raise money. It is not true of Lancashire where I live. What I am suggesting is that the system which I have mentioned would relieve the Budget of a great liability and it would also have a healthy effect throughout the country. It would not in any way check houses being built in any part of the land.
  The final point I want to make is related to relieving the burden upon the Government. I want them to reduce their sphere of activity very considerably. They are still trying to run the business of the country. They inherited a most awful mess from right hon. Gentlemen opposite. They inherited almost the most Socialist State in Europe, and they are having great difficulty in dismantling it. I believe that if they reduce the sphere of activity of the Government they will be able to do their job of governing properly. They are all trying to do too much and, under a system whereby the Government pf the country try to run the business of the country, burdens pile up on Ministers which are tremendous. Issues demanding decision come upon
  1322
  them one after another, and they have to be taken with very little time to consider them, all because they are trying to do too much owing to the system that very largely was left to them by their predecessors.
  We have got to get back to the system whereby the trade, commerce and business of this country is run, not by Governments, but by the citizens of this country trading with the citizens of other countries and not with other Governments. That is the only way in which we shall recapture our position in the world. That is the way in which we shall pay our way.
  I come last of all to the question of convertibility. I do not agree with the right hon. Member for Leeds, South in what he said on this subject. I think the convertibility of sterling is an absolutely necessary ambition.
  Mr. Boothby: With the dollar?
  Mr. Assheton: What is the good of money which cannot be converted into other money? What is the good of £s at the present time if they cannot be converted into other currencies? By a system where one sort of money can be converted into another we will certainly be letting money do its work properly. My hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) asked me whether it would be with the dollar. I hope we shall reach convertibility with the dollar. I do not think that I am keen to try convertibility with the dollar at a fixed rate again. That was the mistake the late Sir Stafford Cripps and right hon. Gentlemen opposite made. They tried to do it at the fixed rate, and I should not try that again.
  It must be tried, but only the Government can say when that experiment should be made. I do not profess to be able to say when it should be attempted, but I know that exchange control has got to be got rid off because that is the master key that will unlock all doors. By keeping foreign exchange control we are keeping the main buttress of Socialism. That is one of the reasons why it has got to be done away with.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: The right hon. Gentleman says he does not favour convertibility at a fixed rate. Presumably he says that it will work more advantageously at a floating

  1323
  rate. That can only mean that it would work if the £ were depreciated below 2.80 dollars. A floating rate instead of a fixed rate in turn means less favourable terms of trade than at the present time. Is the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, willing to pay as a price for convertibility less favourable terms of trade in the near future?
  Mr. Assheton: I cannot say whether, if the £ were free, it would rise above or fall below the present level. We would have to wait and see. But, generally speaking, the object of fixing something is to fix it at a price either below or above what it ought to be, and such a proceeding is more likely to distort affairs than if it was set free.
  The Prime Minister said not long ago that men of daring are needed in England today. He has got plenty of them in his Government, and I hope he will dare within the next nine months and set England free.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: I will say this for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton), that he has given us the city of London Bourbon talk without any attempt to cover it up—they have learned nothing and have forgotten nothing. It is probably true to say that he would find a great deal more support for what he has told us in his former constituency of the City of London than he would in his present constituency of Blackburn, West.
  Mr. Jack Jones: He is on the way out anyway.
  Mr. Wilson: The most significant thing in his speech was his trying to find words to describe the Chancellor's speech. He fished around and then all he could think of was that it was "sincere." No one denies the Chancellor that, but that is all that can be said for his speech. I never heard a speech on economic affairs like it from the Treasury Bench, certainly not while I have been in the House. We had seven perorations in the course of the speech, about 70 clichét a single one of the further measures referred to in the Motion on the Order Paper.
  There is one probable explanation for all this. The Cabinet have been debating the matter for the last three or four
  1324
  weeks and they cannot find a single thing on which they agree. We have all heard the rumours about the cuts that were going to be made, but we were not told a single thing this afternoon, except that there is going to be a cut of 25 per cent. in non-rationed food imports in the second half of this year. I think a possible second explanation for it—and I take no credit for having forecast this in a Sunday journal two days ago—is that the Cabinet have not the courage to tell us what are the real measures which are to be introduced until the Recess begins, and then we shall not be here to debate them.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: What explanation does the right hon. Gentleman accept?
  Mr. Wilson: I think there is a little truth in both of them, but I shall remind the hon. Gentleman of that interruption when we come back to the subject a little later.
  Mr. Nicholson: They are completely inconsistent, surely?
  Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman should realise that it is quite possible, and very likely, that this Government cannot agree on which measures to announce before the Recess begins.
  The Motion on the Order Paper is one of the most fantastic we have had for many months past. It talks about the "progress that has been achieved." I am bound to ask the Government what progress do they think they have achieved in solving our balance of payments difficulty. This Motion perpetuates the myth that the economic situation has been improving for these last six or seven months.
  All that has happened is that there has been a temporary slowing up of the speculative loss of gold and dollars. In January a number of us—my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), I myself and others—said that much of the drain of gold and dollars going on at that time was a purely capital movement, and we advised the Chancellor then not to panic unduly about it. We said that if it could be reversed, it might lead to quite a spectacular movement of funds in the opposite direction. Of course, that was what happened.

  1325
  The Budget speech of the Chancellor contained two measures which, in fact, fundamentally weakened the country. I am referring to the slashing of the food subsidies and to the raising of the Bank rate. Although they weakened the country, the announcement of them seemed to have a sedative effect on the abnormal psychology of the fraternity of international speculators. It gave them that mysterious thing which the financial newspapers call confidence. And so they thought the economy of the country had been strengthened, when actually it had been weakened. Gold began to flow back into this country, but that improvement was short-lived. Of course, every time the Prime Minister makes a speech, it starts to flow out again—until the Chancellor makes his reassuring speech the next day. That is the situation we are in today. I am told that it has been authoritatively calculated that a recent utterance of the Prime Minister cost the country about three and a half million dollars per word, which is a high rate even for the right hon. Gentleman.
  These ebbs and flows of funds have been responsible for the optimistic speeches of a large number of Ministers. Not long ago the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, speaking in Yorkshire, suggested that the economic problems were almost solved. Then we had the Lord President of the Council, speaking in my constituency, talking about light at the end of the tunnel. I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman that the real factors in our balance of payments situation are immeasurably worse than they were six, eight or nine months ago. There are one or two features which have shown an improvement, I agree. One of them is the improvement in the terms of trade due to the fall in world prices. The ratio of import to export prices, which was 105 in June, 1951, has now fallen in June, 1952, to only 93, an improvement of 11 per cent. in our terms of trade. But the Government cannot claim any credit for that, and if we turn to the real factors, we see a desperate worsening of the situation.
  I want to draw attention to three of them: the production situation, the export situation and the dollar situation. What are the facts about production? Production is falling for the first time since the war. There are many reasons for that, but the principal one, which some of us
  1326
  foresaw, is that it is an inevitable result of trying to impose an excessive arms programme on a fully strained economy. The tooling up, conversion, the overstrain of basic services in the country, the shortage of raw materials—these things are bound to lead to a loss of production.
  Look at the steel situation today. There were some horrifying figures published only last week of new shipbuilding started in the second quarter of this year ended 30th June. Those figures show that the new shipbuilding started in this country in that quarter were the lowest since the end of the war. It was not due to lack of orders. It was due to lack of steel, and of the right kind of steel. And this was occurring in a primary defence and export industry. If it is happening in a primary defence industry, what is happening in the rest of the country?
  The fact is that the distortion of the economy, the lack of balance of the economy, has produced a situation, as some of us said six months ago it would do, in which tens of thousands of workers have materials, on the one hand, but lack orders—they are unemployed—and, on the other hand, tens of thousands of workers in other industries have the orders, but lack the materials—and they are unemployed as well. And now with unemployment increasing we are facing a serious situation. I would remind the President of the Board of Trade that his import cuts, now slowly beginning to become effective, are producing a heavy rate of unemployment in the docks on Merseyside, and that is the inevitable result—
  Mr. Peter Roberts: I am following the argument of the right hon. Gentleman, but does he not equally appreciate that there are more people employed at the present time than ever before in the country?
  Mr. H. Wilson: I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman did not see the point. I was explaining that, because of this unemployment, more particularly because of the high degree of the concealed unemployment which may not appear in the unemployment figures, we are getting a serious loss of production and we shall go on doing so until the arms programme is put into proper balance.
  It is only right to underline the warning of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) in his speech in Manchester two or three weeks ago.

  1327
  He said that the workers, through the trade unions of this country, will press in vain for increased wages if production is not increased, and that production cannot increase when the economy is distorted by this arms programme.
  Of course that is not the only factor. Production is also vitiated by the financial policy of the Government. The increased Bank rate, the credit squeeze, the attempts to force weak selling by merchants and manufacturers—all these are part of deliberate Government policy. In the Budget debate the Minister of State for Economic Affairs, of whom we see so little these days, said that the intention of the Government was to purge the economy—not a pleasant phrase. It is a phrase which used to be associated with Nazi leaders.
  I can tell the Government what they are doing. They are driving small businessmen into bankruptcy in thousands and in tens of thousands at the present time. They have always claimed to be the party of the small businessman. Look at their Election speeches. The hollowness of those claims will be shown when the President of the Board of Trade publishes the bankruptcy figures at the end of the year—if, indeed, he dares to publish the figures—
  Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: That was an interesting figure. Could the right hon. Gentleman quote the source of his statement that 10,000 businessmen are being driven to bankruptcy almost every day?
  Mr. Wilson: I said that they were being driven in thousands and tens of thousands. If the hon. Gentleman is in close touch with the business situation up and down the country, he will know that is true. However, if he challenges it, let us wait to see the figures when the President finally publishes them. The combination of high prices resulting from the policy of the Government, of enforced stringency is bringing to this country, as we warned him from this side of the House months ago, the certainty of grave conflict on the industrial front before many more months are over. Yet the whole Budget position and the security of the country depend on a gamble on increased production, and we are finding production going down and the danger of industrial conflict growing every day.
  1328
  Now may I turn to exports. The Prime Minister has been going round sounding an alarm on this, that and the other thing, but he would be quite right to sound an alarm on the present export position as it has been recorded month by month. Exports, like production, are falling for the first time since the war. It is a bitter thing to have to read the export figures produced by the Department of the President when we recall the great records and achievements of our export trade from 1946 to 1951.
  The value of exports in the second quarter of 1952 was £628 million, against £660 million in the same period of 1951. That is a quite serious fall in the value of exports. But of course, prices are rising, and export prices have risen by 12 per cent. over that period, yet the value of exports has fallen. What that means is that the volume of our exports in the second quarter of this year, compared with the second quarter of last year, is down by 15 per cent.
  What are the Government doing about this fall in the export trade? Making speeches? Setting the pubs free? It is a desperate situation, and, as the President of the Board of Trade knows, it is getting worse. The Board of Trade Journal—an excellent publication; it is a pity that it has to contain so much bad news, and worse speeches, these days— last week said that the daily rate of exports remained steady in January to April of this year but that in April to May it fell by 8 per cent., and in May to June it fell by a further 4 per cent. That was the daily rate.
  Sir Herbert Williams: It rose in April.
  Mr. Wilson: I can read the Board of Trade Journal for myself. I suggest that the hon. Member looks at it, reads it, and sees what I have said about the daily rate of exports. He is even looking at the wrong publication. I cannot waste time in educating the hon. Gentleman.
  Sir H. Williams Sir H. Williams rose—
  Mr. Wilson: I cannot waste time—
  Sir H. Williams: The right hon. Gentleman should give way.
  Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Gentleman listens to what I say and compares it

  1329
  with the Board of Trade Journal, he will find that what I have said was an exact quotation.
  Sir H. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Wilson: I am sorry. I cannot spend time teaching the hon. Gentleman to read the Board of Trade Journal. His right hon. Friend can explain it to him.
  Sir H. Williams: The Board of Trade Journal is based on this other book, but the right hon. Gentleman does not even have a copy with him.
  Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the Board of Trade Journal figures are wrong, he should take it up with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. I know all about those figures—I have seen them.
  We all know the serious position in export textile markets. The Government have given up any hope of increasing textile exports this year—they said so in the Economic Survey. We know the situation in Australia, in South Africa and in the other countries which have imposed bans or cuts on our exports. These underline the need for the Commonwealth Conference which the Prime Minister, at long last, has announced today.
  But I support the view, which has been expressed from this side of the House on more than one occasion, that what we need is not merely a Commonwealth Conference. Let us have that by all means. We also need a world economic conference to stop these beggar-my-neighbour import cut policies which were started by the Government last November. The import cuts have saved very little for Britain, up to now, at any rate, but the effect on the other countries has harmed our exports far more than the cuts have saved our imports. It is not only—
  Mr. Osborne: Surely the textile slump started long before last November, and yet the right hon. Gentleman accuses the Government of starting the restrictions, Furthermore, what on earth could the rearmament programme do to affect the world textile slump, which, the right hon. Gentleman knows, is a world problem?
  Mr. Wilson: The hon. Member is all mixed up, as usual. I have often agreed
  1330
  that the world textile slump started before last November. When the hon. Member interrupted, I was talking about import cuts and not about re-armament. He is all mixed up in the three things. No doubt he will sort them out in time.
  The real trouble that we are facing is the danger to our engineering exports. Our export of engineering goods has been reasonably well maintained up to now, but they are beginning to fall. In the second quarter of this year, they amounted to £266 million, as against £290 million in the first quarter, and we must expect them to get worse. They have been well maintained up to now because of the time lag from the placing of orders two, three and four years ago; those exports have still been going on. But month by month, as the impact of last year's defence orders makes itself felt on our export trade, we shall see our engineering goods falling off. That will have not only a bad effect on our total export figures, but a disastrous effect on Commonwealth development, which, it has been said on both sides of the House, holds the key to our economic security in the future.
  Only two or three weeks ago the "Economist." in an article on Commonwealth development, listed the various things that we need for Commonwealth development—tractors, railways and rolling stock, trucks, dock and harbour equipment, agricultural equipment, and so on. The "Economist" concluded with these words:
  "If the items on this list have one feature in common, it is that they all compete directly with re-armament. Even if Britain had the savings and the balance of payments surplus, the part it could play in Commonwealth development would clearly be limited for a number of years to come."
  I say to the Government, as I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South, who dealt with the same point this afternoon, that we cannot make both tanks and tractors at the same time and in the same factory. The Colombo Plan is seriously affected now by the rearmament programme, and if that plan fails it will have a tremendous effect, not only on our economic standard of life, but on the prospects of peace in Asia.
  I come, thirdly, to the outlook for the dollar situation, which is immeasurably worse than it was six months ago. The

  1331
  basic factors are worse. Our dollar position does not depend so much on what we sell to the dollar areas as on what the rest of the sterling area can sell to the dollar areas. Our exports are, of course, most important, but one is bound to admit that the outburst of protectionism in the United States is a very disturbing feature indeed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The President of the Board of Trade did extremely well to make such a frank statement when he spoke recently to the Anglo-American Chamber of Commerce. I only hope that he will not also be accused of anti-Americanism for having put the facts so plainly.
  Twenty American industries appealed recently to the Tariff Commission for relief on almost every item from motor cycles to Maraschino cherries. Nearly all of those industries are squealing before they are hurt by European exports. I am glad that the Tariff Commission threw the motor cycle manufacturers out on their necks, but can they maintain this attitude in the face, possibly, of a hostile Congress?
  I was glad to see also, as the whole House will have been glad, the news of the Ferranti contract in the United States. But the price that they had to quote had to be 23 per cent. below the lowest American price before they were allowed to land the contract, otherwise they would have fallen foul of that iniquitous Buy American Act. The President of the Board of Trade will agree that that is a fantastic piece of legislation for the world's greatest creditor country to maintain in being at the present time.
  The right hon. Gentleman was right also to mention the Customs administration in the United States. That is not a machinery any more for collecting revenue. It is a system of organised obstruction of imports from overseas. I well remember not many years ago, when some British shirts were being exported to America, that because they had a little neckband inside, a specially high rate of duty had to be paid on them, because they were classified as lined or braided garments. I am sure that the President of the Board of Trade can give a whole list of similar anomalies and obstructions to our export trade.
  1332
  The real danger however to our dollar position comes from the prospects for materials sold from the rest of the sterling area, and in this regard the most serious news is the fall in the price of rubber. Last year, the sterling area earned 464 million dollars from the sale of rubber. This year, we shall be lucky to earn 200 million dollars. I should like the right hon. Gentleman when he replies to confirm this figure.
  That loss of over 250 million dollers in a single year is a tremendous one to make up on our dollar payments. It is equal to the whole of our purchases last year of wheat and wheat flour from Canada and the United States; or, to put it another way, it is equal to the whole of our 1951 purchases of North American cotton and timber. Even so, the price of rubber at present is being partially maintained by stockpiling. When stockpiling comes to an end we shall face a truly desperate situation in our dollar balance.
  We are up against subsidised synthetic rubber of which the present production is running at 900,000 tons a year—equal to the whole of the pre-war demand and production of natural rubber. We are sorry that the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. W. Fletcher) is not here today. We regret his absence. We know he would support us in these arguments about synthetic rubber. That brings me to an argument about East-West trade.
  Mr. Harold Davies: It has not yet been mentioned in the debate.
  Mr. Wilson: I do not intend to deploy all the arguments about the need to extend East-West trade—I should have thought they should be widely appreciated in all parts of the House—but I shall mention one short-term factor. It is that if we were now to promote the sale of more rubber to the Eastern world that would have a direct effect, not only on East-West trade, but also on our dollar balance of payments by stiffening the market for rubber at the present time and would have a very helpful effect on the economic and political situation in Malaya. I am bound to ask the President of the Board of Trade, are the Government going on encouraging Communism in Malaya by blockading the Eastern world and at the same time hoping to

  1333
  stamp out Communism in Malaya by collective military measures? Those are the conditions we are getting.
  The urgent need is for international planning of materials. We must overcome the doctrinaire prejudices of the United States and persuade them to enter into international commodity planning—international agreements to allocate materials when they are short and when prices are high, and also to provide a fair price and guaranteed market when demand is deficient.
  Mr. P. Roberts: I am very interested in what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, but why did he and his hon. Friends oppose so strongly the Schuman Plan which dealt with these commodities?
  Mr. Wilson: I am not aware that the commodities dealt with in the Schuman Plan loom very large in the sales of the sterling area for dollars. I am talking about such commodities as jute, rubber, tin and cocoa, and some of these other things on which there was widespread international agreement in principle to have international commodity planning.
  I wish to ask the President what the attitude of Her Majesty's Government is to those international planning schemes. What is their attitude to a plan for the international allocation of cotton—it would be very valuable to Lancashire if we could see one introduced—or an international plan for rubber, or tin? What is their attitude to the International Wheat Agreement, a very valuable piece of machinery now coming up for review? I appeal to the President and the Government not to destroy the International Wheat Agreement.
  Facing this desperate dollar situation, we are bound to ask whether Her Majesty's Government have a policy for earning more dollars because, if not, we are facing a very desperate situation indeed in a few months' time. I have said in the country that what we are facing is not merely another 1947 or another 1949; it is another 1931, with foreign exchange difficulties on the one hand and heavy unemployment on the other. We shall find—if that crisis materialises, and I believe it is materialising—the whole sterling area in peril. In that connection I support my right hon. Friend and appeal to the Government not to listen to the silent voices of the conver-
  1334
  tibility cranks, among whom I include the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West. There can be no convertibility of sterling until sterling is strong. That should be the first lesson the Government should learn.
  What we must ask them is, have they a policy, have they an international economic policy? We heard nothing at all from the Chancellor about it this afternoon. Or are they counting purely on American military aid? We have a situation in the world today in which we have unfair shares of the arms burden—unfair shares partially compensated by dollar payments from the United States to Western Europe. Those dollar payments are given to us at a price and with strings. This was not the idea of the burden sharing exercise to which my right hon. Friend referred. If it were demonstrated that one country was bearing an excessive burden, what should have been done was that that burden should have been reduced, not that we should have been compensated financially by military aid from the United States, aid which we only get with strings attached.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), in the defence debate on 5th March, said—and it was purely an estimate—that we ought to cut the arms programme by £250 million this year in order to set our balance of payments right. Of course, the contribution to the balance of payment would be more than £250 million, because we would be able to get greater production if there were a cut in the arms programme. I wonder if the Government have looked at that and have seen what it would mean in terms of a redistribution of the burden among the Atlantic nations? It would only mean about 3 per cent. more on the American arms programme if they relieved us of £250 million. It would only mean ¼ of 1 per cent. of American national income. Their national income itself is increasing at a rate 20 times as much as £250 million, yet the Government—and this view is not confined to a single party—are prepared to see our economy crippled for the sake of £250 million when it would mean only ¼ of 1 per cent. of the American national income.
  So far, at any rate until the speech of the Prime Minister tomorrow afternoon we are standing fast and refusing to cut our arms programme, yet we find that

  1335
  the United States have calmly cut their arms programme and are to spread it over 4¾ years instead of three. I wonder if the President of the Board of Trade will tell the House if Her Majesty's Government were consulted before that cut was made? We are told we must not cut our expenditure until we have the agreement of everyone else to do so. I wonder if the British Government were consulted before the Americans made this tremendous cut in a tremendous programme.
  The Americans cut their arms programme because they wanted easy living. They have already scrapped practically all the controls on the consumption of raw materials, hire purchase restrictions, credit restrictions, controls on house building, factory building and all these other things. Now we are told, and I suspect that the Treasury have been urging it on the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, that we have to cut our house building programme in order to fulfil the arms programme, while the Americans take off all controls.
  Another serious matter is that the Americans are pushing ahead with capital investment while our Government are mortgaging our industrial future with still tighter capital investment this year than last. I saw the calculation the other day that the gross investment in the equipment of manufacturing industry in this country this year is likely to be not more than £350 million or £400 million.
  I do not know what the estimate of the President will be, but in America the corresponding figure is 12 billion dollars in 1952, or £4,300 million. If we express that in terms of capital equipment per worker, which is the real test, we find that America—which is already much more highly capitalised than we are—is providing her workers with six times as much capital investment per head this year than we are providing for our workers. Is that supposed to be fair shares and equality of burdens within the Atlantic nations?
  The Government must think about the future of our export trade. It is impossible to see whether the United States are moving into a position of more active economic affairs and a policy of inflation, or a slight recession. If they move into a position of inflation, if their removal
  1336
  of controls and their splitting up of the armaments programme increases their economic activity, our production will have a thin time this year, because they will be draining away raw materials once again. The American economy is so big that when it moves into top gear it draws raw materials from the whole world. We have seen the horrifying but, in some respects, the progressive report of the Committee which reported to the President of the United States on the raw materials situation and which talked about a 90 per cent. increase in requirements of mineral raw materials by 1975.
  Mr. Boothby: How does this square up with the right hon. Gentleman's previous argument that our great danger was that we shall be unable to sell raw materials from the sterling area in the United States? If they are taking so much, how does that square up with his previous argument? He cannot have it both ways.
  Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) will allow me to develop my argument I think he will understand. I said that none of us know whether America is going to move into an inflation or a recession. If they move into an inflation—and I do not think they are going to—we shall not get the raw materials for our production. If they move into a recession—which is far more likely—we shall have this collapse, this further collapse in our sales of raw materials and in the prices we get.
  Mr. Osborne: They are wrong whatever they do.
  Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman is beginning to see a glimmering of the truth, that our dependence on the American economy is so great that even a small percentage move either way could have a disastrous effect on our situation in this country—[HON. MEMBERS: "Alibi."]. If there is even this slight deflation it will not only affect the raw material sales and prices, but this highly efficient and highly capitalised industrial machine will be competing with us in every market in the world.
  They have built up their steel production in the last two years by an amount equal to the whole of the size of the steel industry in Britain. Belgium and Luxembourg. The increase in the

  1337
  size of their chemical industry is four times the total size of the British chemical industry. That is the size of the thing with which we are grappling. And, of course, we shall be facing competition from Germany and from Japan, driven into more ruthless competition with us because American policy denies them access to their normal markets in Eastern Europe and China.
  We are not claiming—and I am not saying this for the first time—that rearmament is the cause of our difficulties. We have never claimed that it is. The causes are far older and deeper than that. But we are fighting the economic crisis with our hands tied behind our backs so long as we try to maintain this excessive re-armament programme. Now we have the economy cut along with this ludicrous scheme of arms exports. First the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster says that exports must have priority over defence. The Prime Minister is doubtful about that, and then we find the Government putting defence considerations second to economic considerations, as in the running down of stocks. And now, to stem the flow of gold to Belgium, we are to export fighter aircraft to Belgium.
  And this in 1952; the year we were told was the year of the greatest peril for this country. We are exporting fighters to Belgium, a country which is growing fat on the economic situation in Europe and a country which is doing far less in the way of armaments than we are in this country. The President of the Board of Trade announces that we are to export arms to Spain next. The idea appears to be, and it is a simple economic argument which the Government have got hold of, that by re-arming too fast in this country we are crippling the export trade. That is the first point the Government have made. "But we have got to do that," they say, "because we must have arms at all costs."
  Having established that, they say, "We must export the armaments to make up for the loss of exports." That is the present economic policy of the Government. I do not know about Marx, but the Marx Brothers could not have invented anything crazier than that. The Government really ought to tell us more about this new economic policy. How many more arms shall we have to export abroad, and to what countries, in order
  1338
  to earn the gold we shall need to pay for the re-arming of Western Germany? There is no limit once they start on this economic policy.
  Of course, it completely destroys the argument about priority needs for arms and aircraft. We could earn far more foreign exchange by setting the engineering industry free from the incubus of the present level of arms at this time. So here we are faced with a short-term and a long-term problem. We shall not solve the long-term problem without international planning of economic forces and raw materials. I hope that the United States will co-operate in these things and will get rid of some of their protectionist devices. If not, we shall have to go on alone, and face a siege economy in this country, and go in for a policy of ruthless discrimination against the dollar with all that that means, not only for our standard of life, but for our relations with Canada —and one could think of many other problems which will arise from it.
  So far as we ourselves are concerned —and I am sorry the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so evasive about this this afternoon—it is essential that we reduce the burden of our own re-armament. The £4,700 million programme in three years is dead, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale said in his resignation speech that it was dead in April, 1951. But what is now dead as well is the defence White Paper on which this House divided on 5th March. If the Government dare to come out honestly—and I hope that tomorrow the Prime Minister will—they will say that they have looked at the position and that the balance of payments problem has to come first; that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East was right, and that we are having to make a cut of something like £250 million this year in the arms programme. That would he an honest appraisal by the Government, and I appeal to them to give the House and the country the facts.
  What I am afraid of is that the Government have learned this, even if some of my hon. Friends have not, but they dare not admit the truth of it, and they dare not carry out a policy based on the truth —because they are afraid of admitting that somebody else was right. As a result of 18 months of trying to maintain an excessive programme we have had the

  1339
  worst of both worlds. We have not had the arms and our standard of living and economic situation have deteriorated. We have had neither the guns nor the butter. After 18 months we are not stronger, we are weaker—[HON. MEMBERS: No."]—yes. It is no use just allowing the programme to slow up naturally. It is no use just waiting for deliveries to stretch out. The effect on the economic situation of straining to do the impossible is just as serious. What we need is a clean cut in the volume of resources allocated for re-armament this year.
  I hope that the Government, and especially the Prime Minister will realise what is at stake. It is not only our standard of living. It is not only even the satisfaction of paying our way. What is at stake in this question we are facing today is our survival and our independence of external aid. Because without independence of external aid there can be no real independence in foreign affairs and Britain will be prevented from exercising that great moral influence which she can exert in the councils of the world.
  Mr. Robson Brown: Before the right hon. Gentleman resumes his seat, may I bring him back to the question of international arrangements for the distribution of materials and production with which I have general sympathy? I was not at all clear what his mind was with regard to the Schuman Plan. May I ask him specifically what his mind is with regard to the basic ideas underlying the Schuman Plan, particularly with regard to steel?
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Boothby: I shall deal with one or two of the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) in the course of my speech, but I would say now that I think he was a little too determined to be gloomy. He could not see a ray of light in any direction at all. The short-term prospect was hopeless and the long-term prospect was equally hopeless. If the United States has a boom, all our raw materials are to be taken away; if they have a recession, we are not going to sell them a single thing. We have got no results from our re-armament programme; we are weaker now
  1340
  than when it was started. Everything is absolutely hopeless; there are no guns or aeroplanes in this country. Really, if we were to take the speech of the right hon. Gentleman at its face value, there is only one thing left for us to do, and that is to go into the Lobby and cut our throats.
  Mr. Bevan: Go on, then.
  Mr. Boothby: I have not the slightest intention of doing that. Unlike the right hon. Member for Huyton, I see no necessity for it whatsoever. I think that the outlook for this country is pretty serious, but it certainly does not justify the suicidal attitude adopted by the right hon. Gentleman.
  We had a little argument, earlier, about the sort of situation we were in, and the question of a crisis arose. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) brought in Lord Swinton as saying that we were not in a crisis at all, but that it was something permanent. I would compromise with that and say that we have been in a position of permanent crisis for some years past. It is not so grave as the right hon. Gentleman suggests; but, nevertheless, it is quite serious. It arises, as we all know, from the fundamental economic disequilibrium between the old world and the new; and it is the outcome of a process that has been going on steadily since the beginning of the present century, and which has been accelerated, but not caused, by two world wars.
  The right hon. Gentleman made an attack, in his speech, upon the tariff policy of the United States; and seemed to suggest that they, as the dominant world economic power, should pursue the same policy as we pursued in the 19th century. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman this question: When we go on hammering away at the United States over their tariff policy, why should they import manufactured goods in large quantities from abroad, and particularly capital goods, when they do not want them and will not take them simply because they do not want them? They themselves are actually producing far more than they can consume, and their surplus of exports over imports, is colossal.
  In the 19th century, we were the biggest buyers of goods in the world, because

  1341
  we wanted them—food and raw materials—and we got them wherever we could find them and imported them as it suited our book. The United States are not the biggest buyers in the world. but the biggest potential sellers. For the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that the currency of the world's greatest seller can do the same job, which was to provide an international yardstick of value, as the currency of the world's greatest buyer, is nonsense.
  Our position in the 19th century was fundamentally different from that of the United States today; and one of the greatest mistakes we make is in persuading ourselves that the present position of the United States is the same as our position was then, and in insisting that they should do what we did then. They never will, and I do not see why they should
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Unlike some of my hon. Friends, I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about American tariff policy —that they will not import goods because they do not want them, and it is very natural that they should do so. Will the hon. Gentleman, however, explain to the House how, on that basis, which I accept, the United States can continue to be a creditor nation and expect to be paid?
  Mr. Boothby: I can see all that, and I shall come to that point in a minute or two.
  The United States has a great part to play in developing the backward countries of the free world; and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that they will be, in years to come, very large buyers of raw materials from that world. I think we must develop the sterling area countries in order to find ways in which they can supply those raw materials.
  I want to turn now to our own situation. The position of this country and of most of the countries of Western Europe is one of serious illiquidity, due to a lack of convertible assets, due to lack of reserves. The European Payments Union, to which reference has been made in several speeches, has so small a reserve of convertible assets that the creditor claims are bigger than the total amount. As for the sterling area, the poor banker of the sterling area, at the moment, is in-
  1342
  solvent. This is an impossible situation; and it has to be rectified. Today, we have less gold and more debts than we had in 1945. We have, in fact, short-term liabilities amounting to over £4,000 million—fluctuating, I admit—and a prospective, but as yet unattained, surplus on trading account of no more than £100 million a year.
  I say to my right hon. Friend and to those who talk about restoring convertibility between the £ and the dollar that to talk of it in this situation is absolutely ludicrous. It took convertibility five weeks to get rid of the American Loan last time. It would take, I should think, not more than five days, and, very probably, only five hours, to get rid of the few half-crowns that we have left in our reserves today. Everybody would instantly convert their pounds into dollars. That is inevitable in the present situation.
  I am quite certain that there will be no solution of this problem by orthodox methods, or by trying to apply 19th century remedies to 20th century diseases. We have already tried that out. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)—who I am sorry to see has left the Chamber, because he might have approved what I am going to say—has frequently expressed his disapprobation of the Treasury. I have also taken a rather dim view of the Treasury. They have had a very long run for our money; and, in my memory and experience, which now, alas, goes back over 28 years in this House, I have seldom known them to be right.
  Whenever I think of the Treasury, I am reminded of a story told by the late Lord Fisher. When he hauled down his flag for the last time, he asked for his coxswain in order to say goodbye to him, and his coxswain said "Well, goodbye, Sir; 40 years in your employ, and never done right yet." There is an element of truth in that, for those who sit in this House, as far as the Treasury is concerned. Away back in 1925, there was the old gold standard at the pre-war parity of exchange, and the long deflationary period with heavy unemployment. Snowden was one of the worst, but they were nearly all blind to the fact that those so-called orthodox measures were no longer effective in the modern world.
  Although many of us fought against them, these measures did nothing to stop

  1343
  the biggest economic crash known to history. The curious thing is that the subsequent recovery of the 1930's was achieved by methods of which the Treasury profoundly disapproved, and fought to the last ditch. They never wanted to have a free £ as so many people suggested we should have; or to extend the preferential system and protect the home market, by means of which that remarkable recovery between 1934 and 1937 was achieved.
  We ought not to forget that since the war the Treasury have successively committed us to the acceptance of the principle of non-discrimination in trade; to working for the elimination of Imperial Preference altogether; to fixed exchange rates, that is to say, rates fixed at Bretton Woods in conditions of chaos, when nobody knew the governing factors; to complete national economic independence of everybody; and finally, to convertibility with the dollar, into which they ran us once, and into which I believe that, if they had the chance, they would run us into again.
  I want to suggest to the House that these things cannot be made to mix. It is an impossibility. Any attempt to keep rates fixed when the relationship between independent national price levels is constantly changing is bound to cripple trade, bring about disequilibrium in the national accounts, and distort the composition of production. Fixed exchange rates, uncoordinated national monetary policies and non-discrimination in international trade simply cannot be made to mix. Whatever else may be made to mix, that combination is not possible.
  I agree with those hon. Members who have suggested in this debate that our fundamental problem is one of productivity, not only for this country but for the whole of the free world outside the dollar area. That is a very important point. It will not be solved by convertibility or by any other currency manipulation, because no currency can, in the end, be stronger than the economy on which it is based. Therefore, we must set about strengthening our economy. One certainly cannot stop the leaks in a waterlogged ship by opening the seacocks, which those who are now advocating free convertibility of the dollar are suggesting that we should do. All one achieves in
  1344
  doing that is a straight slide to the bottom; and I should have thought that nobody who remembers those agonising five weeks in 1947, when we did just that, would forget it.
  The other day I read the debate that took place in July, 1947, just before we restored convertibility. I must say that I came out of it with some credit. But the things some hon. Members on both sides said at that time about the prospects when we made the £ convertible with the dollar! If only they would read what they then said—it would do us all a lot of good sometimes to read our old speeches—they would hang their heads in shame. One thing they would never do would be to attempt again to intervene in an economic debate in this House.
  I said that our immediate objective was to strengthen our economy. How can we do it? We can do it by increasing productivity; but productivity depends on adequate capital investment in industry, skill, enterprise, hard work and the existence of assured supplies of raw materials and of markets. That, I think, sums it up fairly adequately, and I do not think anybody would dispute it. How many of these things have we got now? We have the skill, but that is about all.
  Before I turn for a moment or two to the wider aspect, I want to say this about capital investment. I believe that the Chancellor was right to raise the Bank rate when he did because, as the right hon. Gentleman admitted, it restored confidence in the on the part of the rest of the world, and checked the torrential outflow of gold and dollars. I think, therefore, it was right as a move in the international economic game of chess which has still to be played with skill, especially by this country. But I do not think we can go on for ever depriving industry of capital. In the long run we shall only get through by the re-equipment and modernisation of our industries.
  It takes some time to get under way a policy of credit restriction enforced by means of dear money; but it is bound after a time to gather momentum, and to be rather difficult to check, because it operates through capital investment and, therefore, the production of capital and

  1345
  manufactured goods, and seeps through them to the consumer goods. Therefore, it is potentially rather dangerous.
  In the United States, the rate of new industrial investment per worker employed is five to six times greater than in this country. This really should give us food for serious thought. I would also suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that one of the reasons for this may be the fact that people in the United States are able to save, and we in this country are not. Nevertheless, I cannot think that in the long run a policy of credit restriction so far as industry and agriculture are concerned is the right policy for this country, and I have a feeling that even the Treasury might agree with me on that. We shall have to watch this aspect very carefully, and be prepared to alter course.
  When it comes to physical production, everyone has been congratulating everyone else on the increase in the production of coal. But the fact remains that our production of coal, food and steel during the last five years has not been anything like adequate to sustain the standard of life which the people of this country have enjoyed; and which they have only been able to enjoy because we have received gifts and loans from the United States and Canada amounting to over £2,000 million. We really must face up to this fact.
  I am not going to flog dead horses or go back over old ground, but I would like to have a slight bat at the rejection of the Italian miners. Equally, I would like to have a slight bat at the imposition of an Excess Profits Levy on industry at the moment. That gets in a crack at both sides, because both those things are deeply wrong at a moment when increased production is absolutely vital not only for our recovery, but even for our existence.
  I feel that the taxation of industry will have to be seriously reconsidered before the next Budget. I do not think that the Exchequer can continue to take two-, thirds of the profits of industry and expect industry to find enough capital to re-invest and keep itself up to date and its equipment right. Under the present system an expanding industry making more than its "standard" profit may have to pay up to 80 per cent. of its profits in taxation. We can never keep
  1346
  British industry in the forefront under these conditions.
  There is one other point on the question of production, and that is the use of our available manpower. I do not blame hon. Members on both sides for shying away from that as they would from the devil because it is a certain vote loser. I am not in favour of the direction of labour; but there are far too many people in this country wasting their time. I am not saying where they are; they are, in fact, pretty well everywhere. There are a lot of people doing work which is not vital in the national interest. I think we can get over this problem, in co-operation with the T.U.C., by attraction. Of course, to get this result, there may have to be differential wage rates, which will cause a bit of a squawk in some quarters; but I think we shall have to put up with that.
  I now come to the question of efficiency, and to the old horse which we have all flogged in this House—incentives. I still believe that we are not giving enough incentives in this country. By that I mean taxation incentives for hard work, enterprise and skill. We have not gone far enough down that road. We all agree that we can no longer use the stick. But are we not to use the carrot either? If we throw out the carrot, and if we cannot use the stick, there is nothing left but talk.
  We have talked to this animal in the most sombre terms during the last five years, and sometimes we have got it to move a bit. But I think it is getting fed up with talk. Donkeys, in the end, do get fed up with talk. After a time talk, however sombre and impressive, does not achieve the desired results; and, therefore, the use of the carrot should now be very seriously considered.
  On the question of efficiency, I propose to say something which will upset some hon. Members, but I cannot help that. I have done it before and I must do it again. I want to say this about agriculture. I sincerely believe that the standard of farming in England, as opposed to that in Scotland, is far too low. I believe that any hon. Gentleman on either side of the House who forgets that he is a Member of Parliament, and forgets about votes, and takes an objective look at the countryside in England

  1347
  and in Scotland, will come to the same view.
  One is far more adequately, effectively and efficiently farmed than the other. In England there are far too many farmers just carrying on, leading quite a good life and not producing from the soil anything like what they could. There is far too much fallow pasture-land without half enough head of livestock on it. They do not take the plough round their farms. After coal, food production is more vital to this country than anything else. It is the duty of any Minister of Agriculture to see that the maximum efficiency is obtained in agriculture; and it is not being obtained today.
  I come now to the wider aspect of the economic problem confronting this country. Whatever we do the United States will very largely determine the economic climate in which we live. There I agree with the right hon. Member for Huyton. They have all the gold, and we are all in debt. But the economic tempo at which they live is no longer our tempo. What may be just a ripple on American waters can become a mountainous wave by the time it has crossed the Atlantic. That is why the possibility of a recession, which might not be so very large in the United States, fills me with apprehension. We have no defences against it. I do not forget that a 5 per cent, drop in American output in 1949 imposed a 30 per cent. devaluation on this country and on Western Europe. That is the measure of the problem.
  I believe that no system which denies all defence against the instabilities of an economic system so dynamic and so out of proportion to our own can indefinitely survive. I believe that if, as a result of an American recession, we have massive unemployment in this country and in Europe, the workers might well take the view that that is a price not worth paying for the somewhat nebulous benefits of multilateralism and non-discrimination. We might then easily get in a revolutionary situation, if there was a repetition of what happened in 1920 and 1930. I feel that strongly.
  Since 1945 the United States exports have exceeded their imports by 31 billion dollars. That is a staggering figure. Of this the United States taxpayers have paid 18 billion dollars. It really does give us cause for thought, and makes talk about
  1348
  convertibility and a large increase of exports of manufactured goods to the United States absolute nonsense. This clouds and distorts the issue, and just does not make any sense at all.
  What is the future for the United States, so far as we and Western Europe are concerned? I think that the future is dollar investment. The future lies in one form or another, in President Truman's Point Four—the development of the backward countries. If we are to get that American investment and to get the Americans to invest dollars in developing these countries, which would then be allowed to buy goods from us and Western Europe, we must provide an area for them in which it would be worth their while to invest. That area does not exist at present.
  I listened recently on the Third Programme to a remarkable talk by Richard Kahn, the Cambridge economist. I propose to quote from it the concluding passage, because I think that it well sums up what I am trying to say. He said:
  "The extraordinary idea seems to be getting about that this is a good moment for considering less discriminatory trade and currency arrangements. Nothing could be more misleading and more perverse than talk of this kind. What we should be doing is what so often has been done before, and not unsuccessfully—to get it recognised that the dollar countries cannot expect the non-dollar world to be able to take from them more than the equivalent of what the dollar countries import, lend and give away; and that if, as a result of the formation of discriminatory trading groups, the rest of the world buy more, say, motor-cars from one another and less from the United States, that may be the only way to maintain their purchases of American tobacco and cotton. This will secure a larger volume of world trade than would survive under a sauve qui peut régime of non-discriminatory and indiscriminatory mutual cutting down of one another's exports."
  That, I think, is profoundly true. The logical conclusion of competitive national import cuts is the elimination of all trade. If everybody goes in for import cuts, there will not be much trade left. Whatever country in the world can afford that we cannot; because we are more dependent on international trade than any other. I do not say to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade that Her Majesty's Government were not right to make the import cuts which they have made in the emergency which they found. Of course they were right; but my right hon. Friend knows as well as I do that competitive import cuts are not the long-term answer to the problem.

  1349
  I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) was right in deploring the lack of any effective machinery for running the sterling area. It is astonishing. There is absolutely nothing. For Europe there are at least four separate committees trying to direct the economy on an international basis. I think that there are three too many. It probably would be much better if there was one. But it is fantastic that in the sterling area there should be none; and that at the last sterling area conference of Finance Ministers, which the Chancellor acclaimed in his speech, cuts in imports which the Australian Government were subsequently forced to impose were, as far as I know, never even discussed.
  There is no machinery now to deal with an emergency arising from any sharp change in the balance of payments in the sterling area. A new sterling area conference has been mentioned. I hope that at that conference some discussion will take place about the methods by which the sterling area can be run. If it is allowed just to slide along under its own steam as it does at present, without any effective co-ordination of the economies of any of the participating countries, it is bound to collapse, sooner or later, under the strain.
  I will not talk, at this stage, about the methods by which the kind of economic area that I have in mind, outside the dollar area in the free world, can be built up. I believe, as some hon. Members know, that we can build such an economic unit out of the complementary economies of Western Europe, which is essentially industrial, and of the sterling area, which could produce, if it was given the chance, the greater part of the raw materials and foodstuffs which Western Europe requires.
  I believe that it requires a number of revolutionary measures. It requires a new currency system, which would be far more flexible, and which would permit of the inter-convertibility of the currencies of the sterling area with those of the European Payments Union at varying rates of exchange. I believe that it involves a redirection of production accompanied by industrial specialisation; and, last but not least, discrimination on a scale which, at first glance, will not be palatable to the United States.
  1350
  I have said this often enough. There seems now to be a growing realisation in the United States, and certainly in Washington, that all this non-discrimination business no longer works; and that G.A.T.T., for which, incidentally, they have not shown any real enthusiasm themselves, is now making rules for a game which is no longer being played. The unconditional most-favoured-nation clause is as dead as the dodo. So are the restrictive clauses. All these must be swept away. We must think again.
  In conclusion, I say that the age of laissez-faire and multilateralism has gone. The age of mass production and large economic units is here, and our business is to build out of the free world outside the dollar area, and take the leadership in building, an economic unit that can stand on its own feet, in which we can breathe and live, and where we may find the raw materials and foodstuffs we require in exchange for our manufactured and capital goods. That is the short answer to our problem.
  On one side of us is the vast, totalitarian economy of the Soviet Union with unlimited potential power; and, on the other, the equally powerful and highly protected continental economy of the United States. What have we in between? A lot of little, sprawling nation-States, all thinking that they can cut each other's throats in free markets as they did in the 19th century. But that game is finished: that game can never be played again.
  The alternative to building up the unit which I have described is abject economic dependence on American charity. That is the only alternative; and I am sure that, in the long run, that will be much less palatable to the United States than discrimination, and an effort to pull ourselves up by our own boot strings. Meanwhile, we must have this conference, and make it constructive, and get the O.E.E.C. and E.P.U. boys into it as well to discuss ways and means of getting something effective done.
  If I may end on a slightly critical note, I beg the Government to stop talking about alerts and alarms and grave situations and trap-doors and new presentations; and then, when the markets of the world have been shaken, and everybody is in a state of tension, and the House of Commons is assembled for a great economic debate and everybody says, "My

  1351
  God, what is coming now?" nothing very much comes. We have been led up this garden path so often by the last Government and the one before that, and now by this one, that we are beginning to doubt whether there is an alert, or an alarm or even a trap-door. I say to Her Majesty's Government, "Do not alarm us any more. Send for us when you have really got something to say, when you have really a constructive policy—and get it as soon as you possibly can."
  7.22 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Smith: The House has listened to a really lively speech from the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby), who appeared to be greatly enjoying himself. Such a thing was possible from the Conservative benches only because most of the things in which he believes are not the things in which his party believes. Because of that, he is able to make that sort of speech.
  I am certain that the House greatly enjoyed the contrast between the picture painted by him and that painted earlier by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The picture painted by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire was of farmers following lackadaisical methods—not Scottish farmers who vote for him, but English farmers who vote for his party. The Chancellor, on the other hand, painted a picture of miners by their hard and magnificent work contributing so much to the country's welfare that it is to these members of a nationalised industry that he looks for what little improvement he sees in the immediate future.
  Then, returning to the hon. Member, there was the contrast between his really delightful castigation of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton), whose mid-Victorian views the hon. Member criticised as ludicrous—the contrast between that on one hand, and the lamentable anti-climax that followed when the Member for East Aberdeenshire, this apostle of unorthodox finance, this Tory who voted for the nationalisation of the Bank of England, this Tory who coquets with the Economic Reform Club, went on to applaud with all his heart and soul the Bank rate policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  I want to draw the attention of the House to the consequences of that Bank
  1352
  rate policy because, so far as I am aware, no responsible politician ever gets up either in this House or out of it to interpret precisely what the consequences of that policy are and have been up to now. I know that the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire referred to the melancholy period between the wars when restriction and deflation were the order of the day under the inspiration of the late Montagu Norman, with the connivance of Labour and Tory Governments.
  He was quite right about Philip Snowden, who was as bad as any. The imprimatur of Philip Snowden lay on my party for a long time, but it appears that at long last it is fading. Did not my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) come down very emphatically today against convertibility and the principles of Bretton Woods? Only three or four of us dared to say in this House seven years ago that Bretton Woods was based on wrong ideas and on a wrong conception?
  The influence of Philip Snowden is at long last fading out from my party, but the party opposite is still following the policy of Montagu Norman, which gave this country an army of at least one million unemployed for 20 years. That was 20 million unemployed who ought to have been earning £200 a year making capital goods. That means that £4,000 million worth of capital goods were not made between the wars, which could have been made but for the fantastic Victorian superstitions of Montagu Norman and the subservience to them of both political parties.
  But that is the policy to which the Government are seeking to return at the present time. Those years which the locust hath eaten are apparently the era which the Government want to bring back. When I was a boy there were only Liberal and Tory parties. The Liberals were fond of making targets of the aristocracy, and Liberal speakers loved to quote a couple of lines from the Tory Duke of Rutland, who was formerly Lord John Manners:
  "Let wealth and commerce, laws and learning die,
  But leave us still our old nobility!"
  I would paraphrase those lines to meet the changed conditions of the era in which we live, and I would say that the policy of Her Majesty's Government with

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  regard to the Bank rate can be summed up as follows:
  "Let business languish, unemployment rage.
  So long as bankers balance every page."
  That is what it will amount to.
  I want to draw the attention of the Government to the immediate, tangible, palpable, undeniable consequences of their Bank rate policy in so far as that policy has been pursued up to now. It was the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself who said in this House in his Budget speech:
  "One of the surest ways to make sterling stronger is to make it scarcer, and that is what we intend to d0."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1282.]
  Those words were underlined in the Second Reading debate on the Finance Bill by a back-bencher on the other side, of whom not so much notice is taken as ought to be taken. I refer to the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), whom I do not see in the House. His noble father is in the apostolic succession to the late Reginald McKenna as Chairman of the Midland Bank. I suspect that the father was speaking when the son said in this House, echoing the Chancellor's words:
  "I therefore welcome this policy of making money scarcer and dearer."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th April, 1952; Vol. 498, c. 2394.]
  Let us look at how it works out. The Government announced in November the raising of the Bank rate from 2 per cent. to 2½ per cent., and in February from 2½ per cent. to 4 per cent. The consequences happened with almost automatic precision, like a delicately articulated mechanism. We all agree that we badly need more food and that we should encourage those Conservative farmers who South of the Border, not North of it, are said to be so lackadaisical. But the way the Government propose to encourage the farmers is by raising the Bank rate to have this effect on the interest charges of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation—that in November, 1951, folowing the first rise in the Bank rate, up went the Corporation's rate from 4½ per cent. to 4¾ per cent.; and in February, 1952, following the second rise in the Bank rate, up it went from 4¾ per cent. to 5¾ per cent.
  The farmers pay more for their loans, but I would invite the attention of the House to the reciprocal of that state-
  1354
  ment. If the farmers pay more for their loans, somebody else gets more. It is no use merely saying that we have got to take money out of people's pockets so that they cannot spend so much in order to free resources for exports. Because the Bank rate is raised, farmers have to pay more for their loans. Goodness knows, there is enough farming carried on with borrowed money!
  I had a brother who was on the Wheat Commission. He was a very important solicitor in the City of London, and most of his clients were farmers or corn merchants. He used to say to me, "Norman, you can bet you life that if you travel from King's Cross to Peterborough and look out of the window, 90 per cent. of the farm land you see will be mortgaged to the banks." Now the increased Bank rate makes them pay more, and that is how the Government encourage food production in this country.
  Not only the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation but the Public Works Loan Board have raised their charges. That has been discussed in this House before, and I am not going to be guilty of repetition. We know what happened. Because of the effect upon the cost of housing, of which loans comprise the most important ingredient, the Government had to introduce a Housing Bill raising substantially the subsidies on council houses, burdening the taxpayers with more than £3 million per annum. Again the reciprocal of that statement applies. The taxpayers are mulcted in another £3 million. But somebody gets that money. The banks and all sorts of people ultimately lend it, but it is the taxpayers who are mulcted for the benefit of moneylenders.
  But the loans of the Public Works Loan Board are not confined to housing. They apply to all kinds of other local activities, such as the building of schools, hospitals, roads, river improvements and goodness knows what else. There is no special Bill passed to compensate for these added interest charges which are a substantial burden on the ratepayers. I am told that in my constituency of Nottingham the City Council pays 4½ per cent. for its running week-to-week overdraft, and I further understand that that 4½ per cent. is a comparatively favourable rate of interest.

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  But by far the most egregious instance of the effect of raising the Bank rate is to be found in the cost of Treasury bills. For short-term borrowing by the Government, Treasury bills are a very important item. Outstanding today there are £4,200 million of them. When this Government came in there were £5,300 million of them. They funded £1,000 million at a cost of £15 million per annum to the taxpayer. That was new Government expenditure because Treasury bills were funded and interest went up from 10s. per cent. to 1¾ per cent. or a little less.
  But that was only the exordium, the prelude. The big business was to come. Since this Government came in, because —in the Chancellor's words—they have made money scarcer and dearer, the interest rate on Treasury bills, two months or three months, has risen by about 2 per cent. It used to be 10s. per cent. a year ago. Now it is 213/32 in the case of two months' bills, and 215/32 in the case of three months' bills.
  Remember, there are £4,200 million of these bills running altogether, 60 per cent. held by the banks and 40 per cent. held by some striped-trousered gentlemen who call themselves the money market. It is simple multiplication to arrive at this fact, that because of the increase of interest and because money has been made scarcer and dearer, more than £80 million a year has been added, in respect of the Treasury bills still outstanding, to the cost which the taxpayer has to meet to pay the interest on short-term loans. There is very nearly £100 million a year additional Government expenditure falling on taxpayers merely to meet the cost of short-term borrowing in the money market in the City of London. This is perfectly preposterous.
  Nothing is ever said of this £100 million, and no responsible politician or statesmen or newspaper of any political persuasion calls attention to it. It is simple arithmetic which I learned at school in 1895 when I was five years of age. The Government will fight tooth and nail in this House to bring in a Bill to extract £20-odd million from the people who, like me, take prescriptions to the chemist. I pay 1s. a time now, and I have taken three prescriptions in the last three weeks. When I am asked for a Is. in my chemist's shop, which
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  is always full of people in this working class area, I say in a loud voice, "Oh, yes; this is the Tory Government, isn't it?" I always say that very loudly, and pay my 1s.
  The Government went to a lot of trouble to get £23 million out of us all for prescriptions, but they have quietly added some £95 million per annum for financing Treasury Bills in 12 months. That needs explaining. It is not only the £95 million or £100 million per annum added burden on the taxpayers. How does this help the balance of payments, when the Government take money out of the pockets of the farmers, the ratepayers and taxpayers in this way and give it to the moneylenders? The matter goes further than that. The Electricity Board have recently put out a loan of £150 million. I know that loan is not a straightforward thing. It is not what it looks like; it is not quite what it pretends to be. There is this to be said about it—and I am quoting from the "News Chronicle" financial correspondent, Mr. Oscar Hobson, a knowledgeable man to whose writings I pay tribute, though I do not agree with him in anything. He wrote on 24th April:
  "This stock affords the highest running yield (£4 5s. 10d. per cent.) of any dated Government stock."
  If that is the burden which is going to fall upon the users of electricity, every consumer in the land will have to help carry it. I do not see how it helps the balance of payments to make my wife pay more for the electricity she uses, when the extra money which she pays goes to some striped-trousered gentleman whose business it is to lend money.
  Nor does it end there. I represent one of those constituencies which is very evenly balanced between Conservative voters and Labour voters. I was extremely lucky to get in last time. Half of my constituency consists of the type of people who usually vote Conservative because they are either houseowners or have taken out mortgages with building societies and hope one day to be house-owners. I managed to get just enough of their votes to hold my seat. But since I got in last time I have been getting letters from the two extremes in my constituency—not from where the wage-earners live, but from the villa people who did not vote for me.

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  They have been sending me letters which they have received from building societies stating that as from a certain date, usually in October, their mortgage interest is to be increased from 4 per cent. to 4½ per cent. My constituents have asked me whether this is legal, and I have had to reply, "Yes, it is perfectly legal. The building societies are entitled to do that with due notice."
  I wish the Chancellor could explain to a simple person like myself how it helps the balance of payments of the country to make the mortgagors, the people who are buying houses, pay extra interest to building societies when that interest goes to some moneylenders who have put their money into the building societies. If the Chancellor said: "I am going to make them pay more; make them hand it over to the Government, who will then cancel it out of existence "—in the well known method of the late Sir Stafford Cripps—that would be deflation, which might conceivably be helpful; but this appears to me to be nothing better than the Conservative Party, even at the cost of hurting their own supporters—the people who are buying houses—striving to benefit the moneylenders at the expense of everybody else.
  Sir Edward Boyle: The hon. Member has asked several times how dearer money can help the balance of payments position. Surely one answer is that the increase in short-term rates raises the charge on carrying stocks of goods against borrowed money. Increased short-term rates will therefore lead to a falling-off in replacement orders, which must help the metal-using industries in their export drive.
  Mr. Smith: That could be done without putting money into anybody's pocket. The right policy for the Government is to say, "There shall be no such thing as this discount market, this short-term money market in the City of London."
  I do not believe that that market serves any useful purpose whatsoever. It consists as to 60 per cent. of the commercial banks and as to the remaining 40 per cent. of people who call themselves acceptance houses, discount bankers or what you will. They run around all day for as many hours as there are in the working day of the City of London. The situation changes from hour to hour. They are on the telephone; they have
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  messengers and runners, and every now and again, in deep and abject humiliation, they go to the Bank of England to be punished more or less as their master may decide. I do not believe that their activities serve any purpose whatever from a social or business point of view, and I suggest that the time has come when the whole money market business should be converted into one exchange department of the Bank of England and run accordingly.
  The time has come when the commercial banks should be nationalised. Either they are run for profit or they are not. If profit is not their motive, there is no sense in leaving them to carry on as private enterprises; and if profit is their motive, they cannot be defended, because what the Conservative Government is doing in raising the Bank rate is taking money away from the ratepayers, taxpayers, people who are buying houses, people who are consuming electricity, farmers and all the rest, and handing it over to the banks and profit-making institutions.
  But I do not think that the banks are run mainly for profit. There is plenty of evidence that they are not. After all, the profits have remained remarkably stable over the last 15 or 20 years. They have paid out year by year to their shareholders almost exactly the same amount. But consider the appalling waste of manpower which is entailed in the running of these competitive banks. On every street corner there are four, five, or in some cases half a dozen competing branches of the various banks.
  I have had a modest banking account ever since 1913. I have never known banks in the City of London or the country to be crowded except on Fridays. There are far too many branches. We know why they are there; the late Walter Leaf, Chairman of the Westminster Bank, explained that because of their multiplicity of branch premises—many admittedly redundant—the banks were able to accumulate vast hidden reserves which exist in the form of premises that have been either written down or written off in the books.
  There has been a hullabaloo lately because the banks are said to have lost money due to the fact that gilt-edged securities have fallen. Gilt-edged securities were bound to fall once the Bank

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  rate started to go up. I do not need to explain the reason for that. But I deny that the fall in these securities has really hurt the banks. The banks are not quite so foolish as to have among their investments any of those Government securities which are undated. I am quite sure that the banks' holdings of Government securities are dated and therefore have an eventual redemption value which is unalterable. The banks have only to hold on to them, and they will not lose money.
  Nobody is saying that the banks are obliged to sell those holdings, which have deteriorated because of the Government's policy. It may be argued that the banks might have to sell if there were a run on them. Such a thing as a run on the banks is surely quite inconceivable. If it is conceivable, the sooner the banks are nationalised the better. If the banks were nationalised we should be able to bring about far-reaching reforms and get rid of chronic nuisances. If a Government desired to increase the Bank rate and tighten up credit, there would then be no need to expose themselves to the charge which every Conservative candidate will have to meet at the next election —of putting money into the pockets of moneylenders. All this work should be done by one nationalised bank.
  The first consequence would be that the investments of all the banks, which now amount to some £2,000 million, could be converted into Treasury notes. The investments could be washed out and Treasury notes substituted to form the necessary assets of the banks against deposits. In that way the taxpayers would be saved the interest, which I estimate at £50 million to £60 million less Income Tax. That would be a substantial saving. There would be no point in the nationalised bank holding Government securities which were bits of paper said to be a debt against the Government. We should just cancel them out and save the interest, substituting non-interest-bearing £notes.
  Moreover, we could shut down large numbers of these redundant branch premises. The manpower of the banks has risen in the last few years. In 1939 they had a clerical staff of 64,300. By the end of the war it had fallen to some 50,000; but by 1948 it was up to 81,500, and it has gone on increasing year by year until last year it was 86,800. or 35 per
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  cent. above the pre-war figure. One hears talk about the waste of manpower in the Civil Service. The waste of manpower in the commercial banks also needs looking into. If the banks were nationalised and the money market brought to an end, nobody would lose anything. A whole lot of wasteful, competitive, capitalistic activities would be brought to an end and, above all, a source of loss of confidence would be suppressed.
  There is another very important question arising out of the present policy of allowing private banks to co-exist with the nationalised Bank of England. Under the 1946 Act the Bank of England had the power, in theory, to dictate to the commercial banks, but in practice it does not do so. It makes suggestions to them. There has been no dictation. All the time Sir Stafford Cripps was trying to deflate and squeeze the water out of our monetary economy by heavy taxation—having got the public's money in taxation, he destroyed it—the banks, at the other end, were creating additional credit and lending it to industry at their own sweet will, acting under the motive of private profit.
  I have the figures for the increase in bank deposits during those years. I do not propose to weary the House by giving them; they are well known; but it stands to reason that if anybody is going to create new money, it should be the Government and nobody else. I do not know if any hon. Members have read the works of two very distinguished American writers—Thorstein Veblen, who died 20 years ago, or Stuart Chase, who is still alive. They are economists who, unlike most economists, can write English perfectly. They have a habit of making their books live and have never been inhibited by political preconceptions in the way that political writers on both sides of the House in this country are inhibited.
  Long ago—20 years ago and more—they drew attention to the obvious necessity of a continuous increase in the total quantity of money in a country, due to the continuous increase in population and productivity, the latter resulting from science and inventions. Obviously there must be a continuous increase in the quantity of money.
  When I was a boy bank deposits were £1,000 million; at the end of World War I they were £2,000 million;

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  at the end of World War II. £4,000 million; and now, nearly £6,000 million. All this increase represents new money brought into existence by the banks, merely by making book entries—all coming into existence as debt owed to the banks. These two writers in America pleaded that this increase should be socialised. If one socialises the increment of money resulting from the continuous increase in population and in wealth, one socialises the future.
  I wonder that my hon. Friends, the Fabians and all the rest, have never seen that. The reason they have never seen it is because they have been prevented from seeing it, partly by the late Mr. Philip Snowden, who would not allow discussion of any such topic, and partly by the London School of Economics, which was endowed in 1922 to the tune of £472,000 by Sir Ernest Cassel, a banker, who wanted to keep the Socialist movement safe for orthodox finance.
  I have been rather longer than I intended, and I will make only one further point. The right hon. Member for Blackburn, West applauded the policies of the Government Front Bench because he said they were an attempt to return to convertibility—that is to say, an attempt to return to a situation in which the £ is interchangeable with the dollar at anybody's option. But if we are to return to convertibility, we are to return to a gold standard. That is inevitable, because the dollar is fixed by the law of the United States in terms of gold. The Bretton Woods Agreement made that perfectly clear.
  A return to convertibility is a return to the gold standard, and if we are to have an international gold standard, then we are making quite certain that there shall be a continuous repetition of the unhappy process of slump-boom, boom-slump. That inevitably follows, because inventors and scientists can expand the output of wealth far more rapidly than a financial system based on gold can safely expand the output of money; and any industrial system where the output of money does not keep pace with the output of wealth, must be an industrial system of steadily falling prices—and steadily falling prices inevitably spell depression. It was the present Prime Minister who, in this House in April, 1932, pleaded eloquently against any return to a gold standard. He pleaded that the
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  progress of the human race should not be barred and regulated by fortuitous discoveries of gold.
  I beg the Government to reconsider this Bank rate policy. It is all wrong; it is an attempt to return to the Victorian age. It can only bring us back to the days of slump and boom. I warn hon. Members opposite that if they persist in this policy a heavy retribution will overtake them. Let them not forget that we on these benches had more votes at the last election than they did. Their constituencies are those of the seaside boarding house towns, the snob suburbs and the hunting shires. Ours are the industrial constituencies, where the wealth of the country is produced. Let them not persist in these policies. If they do, there will be nothing of their party left, which would not matter; but there will also be nothing of England left, which would matter.
  7.54 p.m.
  Mr. John Baldock: I find it difficult to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Norman Smith), because I do not pretend to have such an intimate knowledge of the workings of some of our branch banks as he does, and I am unable to discourse on the merits or demerits of convertibility, on the return to a gold standard and on the other rather more theoretical aspects of the economy on which he has touched. I want to return to what I believe is the basis of this debate—our economic situation and the balance of payments position, which largely depends upon our ability to increase our production and exports, on the one hand, and to control our imports at a reasonable level, on the other hand.
  I want to make a few proposals towards these ends, all of which I believe are practicable and could be put into operation without too much difficulty. Greater production, whether agricultutal or industrial, depends to a very large extent on the exertions and the interest, or even the enthusiasm, of the management and workers concerned in industry and in agriculture. I believe that of all the factors governing production which are within our control, none would have a greater effect or produce a greater increase than incentives—incentives to those in industry and in agriculture, both in the management half of the team and among manual workers.

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  These schemes are by no means universally popular and, as one who has been responsible for the inception of such a scheme in one section of the building industry, I can understand why. To some extent they are unpopular on both sides of industry, and certainly with some trade unions. I noticed a report in the newspapers of a conference of one of these building trade unions last week, in which the conference asked for the withdrawal of all incentive schemes in the building industry. It seems to me that that would be a most retrograde step at a time when, partly as a result of the stimulus given by the change of Government, but also because of the new atmosphere which is coming into the industry, we are beginning to see results.
  It would be a very retrograde step indeed if the incentives schemes which have been introduced were withdrawn, and I was very sorry to see that this trade union was opposed to them. I cannot see that they can bring anything but benefit to members of the trade union, who are given an opportunity to increase their earnings by participating in them.
  The schemes are also unpopular with management, and it is no use shying away from that aspect. Undoubtedly they involve management in extra work and possibly in extra staff when it may appear difficult, at first sight, to justify the extra overheads involved in keeping the schemes operating. They also result in headaches of all kinds arising from disputes in the administration of the schemes. No matter how long schemes have been in operation, and no matter how nearly perfect they are, it is inevitable that differences and difficulties will arise from them. Nevertheless, I believe that profit-sharing schemes and bonus schemes of this kind have the greatest contribution to make to every kind of productive industry in this country.
  It is unfortunate that they cannot be applied to some of the services, such as transport and, for instance, the railways. But they can certainly be applied to every productive industry, and I believe that if they were introduced more generally a great deal of the pressure for higher wages which is now taking place in many directions would disappear, because these scheme would provide a satisfactory way
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  of earning extra money which many people feel they need, without at the same time prejudicing the prices of the products concerned.
  I was very glad that the Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned this aspect of the wages problem and, while saying that it was irresponsible to press for higher wages at present without greater production, he pointed out that there were opportunities of this kind by which men could get higher wages each week. If we do not follow some policy of this sort there is no doubt that we shall price ourselves out of competition with Germany and Japan. We have been threatened with this competition for several years, and it is at last really beginning to be felt. This is one of the ways in which it can be met.
  Mr. R. Ewart: Will the hon. Gentleman tell me what is the advantage of the policy which he is advocating, especially in the shipbuilding industry, where steel allocations are being cut, and Japan and Germany are becoming the biggest competitors of that industry in this country?
  Mr. Baldock: I can reply in two ways. First, the Chancellor said that he was hopeful of an increase in the amount of steel that would be available. I hope that this shortage is only a temporary situation, and I do not think that it can affect our attitude towards incentive schemes. Secondly, I believe that we shall be able to compete certainly with Germany in shipbuilding. A friend of mine who went to Hamburg the other day, seeking to find out the prices of ships being built there, found that certain types of vessels— tankers—were more expensive to build in Germany than to build in Britain. I think that is an encouraging sign. I believe that if development of this kind can take place, we can keep the position as it is and certainly meet German competition in regard to shipbuilding.
  I think that responsible trade union leaders appreciate this position very fully. Only this morning, there was a letter in "The Times" from Mr. Harries, who was for 20 years a member of the staff of the T.U.C., in which he described the unions as being now in the position of an Estate of the Realm. They are a thoroughly responsible and important section of the community, and their

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  leaders mostly understand their position of responsibility and do not want to press for financial burdens on their industries, which would make them unable to compete with foreign competition. Here is a way which, by incentive schemes, and by profit-sharing schemes, it is possible to satisfy the desire on the part of many people for higher incomes without in any way endangering the export drive.
  We all agree that more production must be obtained. In these circumstances, I feel that while we ought to offer every encouragement to further output, we ought also to investigate even more closely than we have done the restrictive practices which are equally dangerous to increasing production.
  Mr. Hobson: Where are they?
  Mr. Baldock: They are partly on one side of industry and partly on the other. Whereas we have on the employers' half of the partnership, the Monopolies Commission to investigate the position—
  Mr. Hobson: Where are the restrictive practices appertaining in the engineering industry so far as the trade union movement is concerned?
  Mr. Baldock: If the hon. Member will allow me to develop my argument, I would point out that I have been referring to no specific industry. I have only mentioned that there are restrictive practices on both sides of industry, and it does not follow from that that there are restrictive practices in every industry. I suggested that there are restrictive practices on both sides of industry, and I think that is generally accepted by most fair-minded people. So far as the employers' half of the partnership is concerned, there is the Monopolies Commission to deal with this position, and I hope that it will get into higher gear than it is running at the moment and investigate more firms and, perhaps, be given even more searching powers to do so.
  What about the other half of the team? Is there any kind of investigation which takes place into the restrictive practices on that side? I think that it is reasonable to suggest there should be some kind of impartial committee able to investigate and corresponding to the Monopolies Commission to look into the alleged restrictive practices on the manual workers' side of the industry. If those restrictive
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  practices do not exist, I am sure that we shall be more than pleased. But as there are insinuations that they do, would it not be a good thing if there was some kind of impartial committee to investigate them, and to report, in the same way as the Monopolies Commission, back to this House and through this House to the country, as to whether these restrictive practices do exist. I believe that they do.
  Take, for instance, the case of mechanisation. We all agree that there should be more horsepower behind the arm of every worker. Every Anglo-American productivity team says that, and almost everyone in this House on either side says the same. We want more horsepower and more machines, and yet we read of dockers strongly resisting the employment of mechanised equipment, such as fork-lift trucks, in the docks.
  We also read—it may be false—of bricklayers who are restricted to laying only so many bricks a day. Then, I do know that there certainly exist absurdly rigid rules as to what operations tradesmen may do in particular industries. They are only allowed to use their own particular tools. That is, by and large, reasonable, but we get absurd cases in which a man wants to do an operation which would only last for two or three minutes and some other tradesman has to come in at great expense to do it. That certainly is a restrictive practice.
  The most obvious example of all that has occurred recently, however, was the indefensible action of some trade unions in refusing to work with foreigners who were unemployed in their own country, an action which was very rightly and courageously castigated by Sir William Lawther. There are certain cases of this kind where people on both sides of industry are holding up production.
  Let us clear all that away, and let us get the Monopolies Commission bearing on the employers and have an impartial committee to investigate some of these allegations on the other side. Then, at least, the nation would know who was holding up production, if anyone.
  I would like to say a word on agricultural production, because that is every bit as important as exports. Every extra morsel of food produced in this country is saving us from importing food from

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  abroad. There are some who advocate keener prices for agricultural produce because they say that the farmers can only be caused to give greater production if they find it harder to earn their living. An argument frequently used in the "Economist" is that by reducing the prices of agricultural products offered to farmers, the farmers will find it harder to earn their living and will therefore have to produce more in order to maintain their standard of living. I think that is a thoroughly spurious argument, and one has only to look at the slump years and time of agricultural depression to see how completely unfounded such an argument is.
  If it were the case that low agricultural prices increase production, we ought to have had enormously high production in the twenties and thirties when agricultural prices were so low throughout the world. Yet we find the contrary. We find today with higher agricultural prices that production is nearly 50 per cent. above prewar. I think that argument is completely hollow.
  I think that prosperity in the agricultural industry is what is required for increased food production because, when that industry is prosperous it attracts more efficient and progressive people, the type of people who will build up the production of their farms. I think that the only way, unfortunately, to deal with cases of bad farming—the inveterate and determined bad farmer—is by putting greater pressure on him through the county agricultural committee, which, I understand, the Minister of Agriculture is hoping will be done.
  The labour position on the land is giving great cause for concern in many parts of the country. We cannot have increased food production without an adequate labour force. I read only last week that in Leicestershire, the county in which my constituency is, over 500 men were lost from agriculture to other industries in the last 12 months. These were figures provided by the Farm Workers' Union. That is a very disturbing position. In many parts of the country the same story can be repeated. I hope that the Minister of Labour and his Parliamentary Secretary, whom I see is here, will give the most favourable possible consideration to the deferment of farm workers in all cases where he
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  can. The labour situation on the land will develop into a very serious one in the next year or two now that young farmers and farm workers are being called up.
  A further significant increase in production could be obtained by putting some of our commons and heaths in the South of England into agricultural production. There are thousands of acres now under bracken, fern and heather which could well carry a number of stock on a ranching system if they were simply fenced in and water was provided. If we are really anxious to increase our meat supplies that is a way in which it can be done with very little loss of amenity to those who like to walk about the countryside.
  Those are some aspects of increasing production, and I now want to turn to the other side of the picture, which is the holding of our imports at a reasonable level, for that is equally necessary if we are to obtain a satisfactory balance. I believe there is not the slightest hope of the United Kingdom ever getting into balance with the dollar world. We could probably do it as the sterling area but not as the United Kingdom. It is obviously impossible for us to increase our exports to the United States threefold in order to get into balance.
  We ought to give much more serious consideration to reducing dollar imports. Many people do not appreciate how much our fortunes have declined since before the last war and before the previous war. We are an impoverished country and must do what many others in our position have done; we must cut dollar imports. I was glad to hear the Chancellor say that cuts would be made in the purchases of tobacco. I am certain more tobacco could be grown in the Commonwealth and the sterling area. The present imports are a luxury that we cannot afford. If one travels on the Continent one sees very few Virginian cigarettes, and that has been the position for years. When European countries got into a similar financial position to our own they could not afford to import American tobacco and had either to grow their own or import tobacco from soft currency areas. That is what we should do. This is an instance where savings in dollars could be made.

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  Savings could also be made by reducing the imports of dollar films. Now that television is growing I believe that the demand for popular entertainment which the cinema has met will turn more and more towards television, especially if we allow some sponsored television programmes. People will get more and more of the entertainment they want in their own homes, and the demand for this large expenditure on American films will become less and less necessary.
  Many other dollar imports could be reduced. Considerable savings in expenditure on timber could be made in most forms of building by greater use of concrete and particularly pre-stressed concrete. In some cases this might put up the price of the building a little but if it helped us in our dollar balance problem it would appear to he a worthwhile price to pay.
  Those are a few suggestions which might help on the imports side, from the dollar area. If some of those practical steps were taken, together with steps towards greater production, particularly incentive schemes, we might return rather more quickly than we anticipate to the position of an over-all balance.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. W. E. Padley: Both of the opening speeches in this debate referred to the importance of the wages issue in any attempt to frame a satisfactory policy for dealing with our serious economic problems. Both speeches also referred to the action of the Minister of Labour in referring back to 12 wages councils certain proposals for wage increases for distributive and other workers. I propose to concentrate on the wages aspect of Britain's economic problem.
  The reference back of the wages councils' proposals has become a symbol to millions of our wage earners. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should not underestimate the importance of the issue. Within a few days the leaders of the T.U.C. had intervened with the Prime Minister. When I went back to my constituency, in which mining is the largest single industry, miner after miner said to me, "In the old days when there was a Tory onslaught on wages the miners were the first victims; now it appears to be your men." That was a reference to
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  my position as President of the Distributive Workers' Union.
  I do not pretend for a moment that distributive workers are the only low-paid workers whose grievances must be remedied. But I do say that it is iniquitous to refer back these proposals for modest increases, ranging in most cases from 6s. to 10s. a week, which, in the overwhelming majority of cases, would still leave a total wage well below £6 a week, and in some cases below £5 10s. a week. This issue threatens to become a turning point in the relationships between the present Government and the trade union movement.
  The proposals have been referred back to the wages councils with a copy of a statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 15th May. The Chancellor's statement is open to most serious criticism, but before I finish I hope to prove that, even on the basis of the Chancellor's statement, the decision of the Minister of Labour, if it was his decision, to refer the proopsals back was utterly indefensible.
  Before I deal with the Chancellor's statement I want to say a word or two about the rather complex negotiating machinery in the distributive trades. In Britain there are about 750,000 shops and other retail establishments, and the number of employers runs into hundreds of thousands. It is the set-up of the distributive trades which has always been a barrier to the development of highly organised machinery on both sides of the industry. Before the war it was possible to get voluntary trade union agreements with some of the larger employers. During the war voluntary joint industrial councils, supported by the legally enforcible decisions of the National Arbitration Tribunal, worked tolerably well.
  Wages councils were established, largely as the result of the work of the late Ernest Bevin, as much on the demand of the employers as on that of the trade unions. The reason for this attitude on the part of the employers is not hard to see. So long as larger and better employers with voluntary agreements with the trade unions were facing competition from those sections of the trade where trade union organisation is difficult, it was not easy for the employers and the trade unions to negotiate satisfactory wages scales. That is why the

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  wages councils came into existence with the agreement of the employers, the unions and the Government of the day.
  It is important to point out that the union of which I am president has voluntary agreements with the Co-operative movement and the Multiple Grocers' Association covering all the workers of all the multiple grocers throughout Great Britain. They provide a wage in excess of that which the Minister has referred back. The present wages council rate in the food trades is the princely sum of £5 5s. 6d., and had the increase been ratified by the Minister it would have been £5 15s. 6d. in the larger towns in Britain. The voluntary agreement with the Co-operative movement provides for a rate of £6 7s. a week and that with the multiple grocers a rate of £6 a week.
  It is possible for some people to argue that the majority of the members of my union are not directly involved, since they are covered by voluntary agreements, but the fact remains that many thousands of them are so involved. In addition, the indirect effect, even to well organised workers, would in the long run, be quite considerable. I have always found, in negotiations with even the best employers in the distributive trade, that there has at some stage been the argument, "What about our competitors?"
  One of the penalties one pays for statutory wage regulation machinery is that it is rather cumbersome. Let us take, for example, the present wages councils' proposals which have been referred back. They arise from wage demands tabled in January. The negotiations took place in February and March. At that stage an agreement had been reached with or without the help of the members nominated by the Minister of Labour. By statute, the proposals had to be circulated and for three weeks posted in every shop in Britain. During that period employers and workers could send objections to the council. At that point the council met, again by statute, in order to consider the objections and that, of course, is the reason why the wage applications put in in January and negotiated in February and March did not reach the Minister for ratification until the beginning of May.
  That, as I say, is one of the penalties of statutory wage regulation, but it is
  1372
  a point which has a real relevance to the action of the Minister in this case. These wage applications were put in in January. During the negotiations the January cost-of-living index figure was the last figure available. The cost of living largely governed this set of negotiations. Hon. Members may have seen a statement by Mr. Donald Barber, secretary of the employers' side of the Drapery Wages Council. Mr. Barber, the spokesman of the employers, said these wage increases, which the Minister has referred back, bore a strict relationship to the rise in the cost of living between the last increase and these proposals.
  That statement is, in my view, an under-estimate of the true position. Between January, 1951, and January, 1952, the cost-of-living index figure rose by 13 per cent., and in the case of the Drapery Wages Council it would have required a wage increase of 14s. 2d. to maintain real wages up to January last. In fact, the proposed increase which the Minister has referred back is 10s. I would claim, therefore, that on a strict calculation even if the Minister ratified the Drapery Wages Council's proposals there would, even up to January, have been a decline in real wages of 4s. 2d. a week. That calculation takes no account of the rise in the official index figure of six points between January and the present time.
  When he was answering Questions the other day the Minister made some word play as to whether these were agreed proposals. Some of them were agreed proposals in the sense that as a result of negotiations, the employers' representatives and the trade union representatives agreed, but in other cases the independent members nominated by the Minister arbitrated on differences between the two sides. But that is surely a normal practice in collective bargaining machinery which has been built up in Britain.
  These independent members nominated by the Minister himself are among the most distinguished arbitrators in Britain. The chairman of the old National Arbitration Tribunal, the present Industrial Disputes Tribunal and the arbitrators in machinery covering many other industries are included. It would seem to me that this action by the Minister is challenging the capacity of these distinguished men and women who are among the most experienced arbitrators in

  1373
  Britain. No hon. Member can overlook the point that since these arbitrators operate in other industries the effect of this action is bound to spread to other trades.
  The Minister of Labour has referred the proposals back and sent with them a copy of the Chancellor's speech on 15th May. I think that speech by the Chancellor is open to very serious criticism, but even if we study the precise text of the Chancellor's statement we shall still find no support for the action of the Minister of Labour. The Chancellor states:
  "The rise in prices which started about two years ago have been very largely compensated for by the increase in wages which were obtained up to the early part of this year."
  As I showed, these proposals affecting the distributive trades are precisely the increases negotiated at the beginning of the year to compensate the workers for the rise in the cost of living.
  The Chancellor goes on to say:
  "Remember that the money saved by reducing subsidies has been returned to the public by lower taxes and by increasing a wide range of allowances."
  Earlier in my speech I mentioned the rates that were involved. Obviously, when the Chancellor referred to the money saved by reducing food subsidies being paid out in Income Tax remissions, it had no relevance whatever to the position of well over one million distributive workers, whose wages are well below the figure at which Income Tax would be paid. Therefore, on the second point, the Chancellor's statement is utterly irrelevant.
  Indeed, immediately after that he went on to say:
  "Nothing that has happened since would seem to me to justify a general increase in wages today, though this is not to deny there may not be a case for some very moderate adjustments in certain instances."
  So it seems to me that we have two clear-cut admissions by the Chancellor even in the warning speech: first, that these increases which the Minister has referred back to the wages councils are thoroughly justified because they are increases barely in proportion to the rise in the cost of living up to the beginning of the year. Secondly, since these workers, in the majority of cases, got no Income Tax concessions, they are in the special category which are entitled to a
  1374
  further increase to cover the six points rise in the cost of living since the beginning of the year.
  I defy any hon. Gentlemen opposite to challenge the logic of those deductions from the Chancellor's own statement. In that statement the Chancellor said much about inflation, but it is hardly necessary to say to hon. Members that the workers in these trades have probably been more the victims of rising prices than most sections of our community.
  I want now to turn to another aspect of this issue to which I referred briefly in supplementary questions to the Minister of Labour a week ago. I asked the Minister, on that occasion, whether it was not a gross abuse of the ministerial power to use it in this way. I do not for a moment challenge the right of the Minister in appropriate circumstances, whatever they may be, to refer proposals back to wages councils. However, on weighing the evidence of these cases, I have come to the firm conclusion that the action of the Minister was a gross abuse of the ministerial power under the Act, and I am glad of this opportunity to give my reasons in some detail.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Minister of Labour seemed a little put out when I put this briefly in the form of a supplementary question. It will be clear, when I have explained my point, that this is no reflection on the integrity of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. It is important to remember, first, that in every case the negotiations on these wages councils were completed before the Chancellor made his statement on 15th May, and in most cases had actually been submitted to the Minister before then. In other words, these low-paid distributive, laundry and other workers—[An HON. MEMBER: "And railway workers."]—are being singled out for a retrospective action of the policy announced by the Chancellor on 15th May. When I made that point at Question time the other day I was considerably encouraged to see the "Manchester Guardian" saying, in a leader, that there was considerable force in that argument.
  Secondly—and this is a most important point—it seems to me virtually certain that the Minister did not consider the proposals submitted to him in his judicial capacity as a Minister but that, on the

  1375
  contrary, he referred them back as the result of a political decision by the Cabinet. How else can we explain the fact that a pile of a dozen, ranging over a period of nearly two months, were held up and the decision announced on the same day?
  I find it really hard to believe that the Minister carefully considered all the proposals which he has referred back though, under the Wages Councils Act, he would be expected to do this before exercising his ministerial right. I find it hard to believe that the Minister gave careful thought to each one of these proposals. For example, take the Newsagency, Tobacco and Confectionery Wages Council. The existing wage rates for shop assistants aged 24 and over are as follow: 97s. 6d. for the smaller towns, 103s. 6d. in the larger provincial towns and cities, 107s. 6d. in London.
  Surely that is the kind of case the Chancellor envisaged when he said that some wage increases were justified. Did the Minister seriously consider this case? Does he really say that the proposal to raise these rates by 8s. a week is likely to cause difficulty to the nation? Is the Minister really saying to the people in the smaller towns that a wage of 97s. 6d. is adequate and that an 8s. increase will imperil the British nation?
  Mr. Malcolm McCorquodale: If I may interrupt the hon. Gentleman, he knows well that the Minister never said anything of the sort. The Minister is merely giving the wages council an opportunity of considering the statement of the Chancellor. If, after considering that, it chooses to proceed with this scheme, it can come back to the Minister again. He is not prejudging the case at all.
  Mr. Padley: My reply to the right hon. Gentleman is the simple one that if the action of the Minister is to be defended at all it must be defended within the four corners of the Act under which the Minister acts in a judicial capacity.
  I have read out the rates before the increase and after the increase and I am prepared to leave it to the verdict of every hon. Member in this House as to whether, in a judicial capacity, any fair-minded Minister would refer back those rates. The right hon. Gentleman, of all
  1376
  people on the other side of the House, should realise that the overriding purpose of wages councils—and now I quote the Act—was to guarantee adequate minimum remuneration to workers in industries where, without wages councils, they were not likely to receive it.
  In other words, the first victims of the policy announced by the Government have been men and women in industries where, in general, wages are low and, in some cases, much lower than in industry generally. Therefore, it seems to me that this is a monstrous perversion of any reasonable interpretation of the power of the Minister. Parliament decided that these groups of workers were in need not of an attack by the Minister of Labour but of his protection by the Wages Councils Act which he administers. I suggest, therefore, that simply to make reference to the literal text of the Act, and for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale) to drag in the name of the late Ernest Bevin is not good enough.
  Perhaps this is the appropriate point to anticipate the argument that a former Minister of Labour did something of the same kind. If hon. Members quote that precedent, I hope they will see that their Front Bench follows it in detail so that the proposals will, in fact, be signed without the alteration of a comma. Since Ernest Bevin was mentioned in an earlier discussion on this, I feel impelled to say that when my union and the Trades Union Congress were having some differences with their own Government, I believe that it was the influence of Ernest Bevin, though at the time he was Foreign Secretary, which solved this matter quickly, at the critical point. Ernest Bevin took a long-standing interest in the wages machinery of the distributive trades. He was the principal architect not only of the wages councils but of the joint industrial councils for this industry.
  I have referred to the fact that most of the men and women concerned receive no remission in taxation. Yet it is precisely at a time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer has decided, whatever the crisis that confronts us, that the nation's position warrants handsome presents, ranging from 12s. a week to men getting £20 a week, to 30s. a week to the man with £50 a week, depending upon their family circumstances, that men and

  1377
  women earning less than £6 a week are having wage increases either vetoed or held up.
  It is important to remember that given wages council machinery, if the wages councils—which, I understand, are due to meet between 6th and 29th August—vary these proposals for wage increases, the whole machinery has to be gone through again and these people will wait until November and December before wage increases are forthcoming.
  Sir H. Williams: The hon. Member is not quoting the subsection accurately.
  Mr. Padley: The subsection on what?
  Sir H. Williams: The proviso, on page 79, as to what happens when recommendations are referred back and are resubmitted, with or without amendments. The hon. Member is quite wrong in his description.
  Mr. Padley: No. If the hon. Gentleman's acquaintance with the Wages Councils Act was of as long standing as mine he would know that if there is substantial variation of the proposals when they go back employers and workers in the trade must be given an opportunity to submit objections to them. That is the position as I have understood it and as the legal advisers to, I think, both sides of the industry have understood it.
  Mr. Jack Jones: The hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) has a lot to learn. His P.P.S. has gone over to help him now.
  Mr. Padley: I was about to quote another rank inconsistency of the Government. Since these wage increases were negotiated, the Government, by the Ministry of Food, have given £10 million a year extra in margins to the grocers. I have no complaint about that; anyone in the trade knew that the position was getting somewhat difficult. But it is a most extraordinary position when a Government can give £10 million a year extra to the grocers, but freeze the wages of hundreds of thousands of grocery trade employees at £5 5s. 6d. a week.
  Therefore, I come to the conclusion that the most charitable explanation of the Government's action in this matter is that, as usual, none of the leading Ministers knew what he was doing. The alternative would he to condemn the
  1378
  leading Ministers of the Government as lacking in elementary moral principles and sense of human decency. At a time when handsome presents are made to the wealthy, some of the lowest paid workers are singled out not only for a wage freeze, but for a restrospective wage freeze.
  Make no mistake, that is what it appears to be, not only to the million and a half distributive workers involved, but to countless workers up and down Britain, who believe that this is the beginning of a calculated Government policy.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Harold Watkinson): The hon. Member is making his case with great moderation. I hope he means what he says, that it only appears to be a wage freeze. I want to make one thing quite plain—and I am sure that the hon. Member knows what is in the Act better than I do: that is, that under the Act—a Coalition Government Act, and under the late Ernest Bevin—the Minister has only two choices: either to sign the Order, or to refer it back. He has no alternative to suggest any variation in rates or anything else. He can only do one or other of those two things. His duty is clear.
  Mr. Padley: With due respect to the hon. Gentleman, that is not a very strong point.
  Mr. Watkinson: I am merely trying to get the facts right.
  Mr. Padley: Yes, but under the wages councils there is the employers' side, the trade union side and, because this is statutory machinery, the Minister of Labour usually nominates three independent members. They are among the most distinguished arbitrators in Britain. I therefore submit that in all kinds of cases that can be envisaged the national interest is protected by the nominees of the Minister. Otherwise, it seems that there is scarcely any purpose for this tripartite set-up.
  I really think that right hon. and hon. Members opposite should look carefully where they are going. When the Budget was published there were warnings in this House and outside by responsible trade union leaders that it would have an adverse effect on industrial relations. The case of several million lower paid

  1379
  workers—not only distributive workers but agricultural workers, day workers—
  Mr. L. M. Lever: Railwaymen.
  Mr. Padley: —lower-paid railwaymen, and so on—was cited. But the Chancellor and his right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) hypnotised themselves with a mass of figures to show that these warnings really had very little substance. They quoted averages in the main, and averages are notoriously deceptive. Even if they hypnotised themselves and hon. Members who sit behind them, when the local elections came they wondered what had hit them because these masses of statistics made no real impact on the minds of men and women with £6 a week, or less.
  Britain faces serious economic problems and, certainly, no trade union leader who has at heart the welfare of the men and women he leads—just because there is a Tory Government in power—would react in the words of the music hall song:
  "We don't care a damn if the boat goes down,
  She doesn't belong to us."
  But it is equally true that no responsible trade union leader can acquiesce in rank injustice.
  The fact is that since this Government took power almost every action they have taken in economic and social affairs has been to redistribute income from those who are not well off to those who are better off. They have attacked the food subsidies and the social services, which have always meant more to the lower paid workers than to most other sections of the community.
  I hope that the Government will not only allow the Minister to sign these Orders forthwith, but that the outcry on this occasion will prevent similar action with regard to proposals for agricultural workers and some others. If hon. Members opposite look at the Press reaction to this event they will find that, for the first time in my life, I have had an editorial in the "Daily Express" giving me backing. That is a new experience.
  They will also find that the "Manchester Guardian" and "The Times" have written powerful editorials backing the justice of our case whilst expressing
  1380
  some sympathy for the Minister concerned. The "Manchester Guardian" said that the sensible thing for the Government to do would be not to await battle on this issue but to revoke their decision with regard to the Wages Councils Orders and, instead, give some general warning on wage claims generally.
  But even if the Government decided tomorrow to sign these Orders and not to repeat this offence in the case of agricultural workers and others, that would be but a beginning to the kind of policy which is required if Britain is to overcome its serious economic problems. Make no mistake, in the second half of the 20th century the only foundation for economic stability is social justice.
  It is quite useless for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make appeals to the nation with his hand on his heart, unless he is prepared to underpin those words with economic and social policies which do not discriminate against the lower paid people in favour of the higher paid people. It is only insofar as this Government appreciate that social justice is the foundation of economic stability that they will be able to confront and solve the economic problems which face Britain today.
  8.50 p.m.
  Sir Herbert Williams: I listened with care and interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley), but I do not think he has applied his mind to what is the real problem of the debate today. It is whether, unless we solve the external problem, we shall be able to maintain existing wage rates. That is the real issue. I do not know what animated the mind of the Minister of Labour. I did not know about it until I read about it in the newspapers. But that is the real issue. The issue is survival, and, therefore, it is no use talking—
  Mr. Padley: Would the hon. Gentleman answer this simple question? Was the issue survival when the Chancellor gave 12s. to those with £20 a week and something like 30s. to those with £50 a week?
  Sir H. Williams: The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not give anything to anybody. My income is my own income. The State may decide to abstract so much

  1381
  from it in taxation, but if taxation is diminished it is not a gift. That is an absurd attitude to adopt.
  Mr. Padley: The hon. Member says my attitude is absurd, but if he will refer to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 15th May, which has been sent to the wages councils, he will find that it is not I who make that point, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Sir H. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is not quoting precisely what the Chancellor said when he says that the Chancellor gave certain people 12s. a week when he reduced taxation. On that basis every reduction of taxation is a gift by the State to those from whom the State took it in the first place. That is just a Robin Hood theory. Hon. Members opposite have been pressing for an increase in their salaries.
  Hon. Members: That is not true.
  Mr. Jack Jones: Will the hon. Member produce any evidence that hon. Members on this side of the House have made a direct approach about increasing their salaries?
  Sir H. Williams: I know that a very large number of hon. Members have spoken to me and suggested that I should talk to the powers that be. There is no reason why I should not if hon. Members opposite thought I was a suitable channel of approach. And after all, we know perfectly well that at their party meeting the Leader of the Opposition announced the result of his conversation with the Prime Minister. Do not let us be dishonest about it; of course it is true. I do not blame hon. Members opposite. One reason is—
  Mr. Albert Evans: Is the hon. Member now retailing to the House spoken rumours and things which have been said to him in confidence?
  Sir H. Williams: I am talking about what has been published in the Press—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): I would ask hon. Members to refrain from interruptions, because the winding-up speeches for today are due in a few minutes and I hope that full opportunity will be given to right hon. Members to make their speeches.
  Sir H. Williams: Hon. Members opposite have had far too much time given to them up to now and I should like to be allowed to have the few minutes that remain.
  The hon. Member for Ogmore said there was no remission in taxation for those for whom he is speaking. That statement is quite inaccurate. If the minimum wage rates he quoted are accurate and if he will examine pages 27 and onwards of the Financial Statement he will see that for single persons and for some married couples there are definite remissions. But I do not want to be led into that subject. I wish to say a few words about other matters although I shall not have time to deal with the main issue which I wanted to discuss.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) referred to the change in our export trade. I saw fit to challenge one thing which the right hon. Gentleman said. I happen to have with me this document—the Trade and Navigation Accounts—and certain things which the right hon. Gentleman said did not appear to fit with the figures in this document. I therefore desired to quote it to him, but he would not allow me to quote it on the ground that what he had read was in the Board of Trade Journal.
  I think the right hon. Gentleman knew that he was not being quite candid in the matter, because he must know that articles in the Board of Trade Journal are based on information which is published in this document, which, until a few months ago, bore the name of the then President of the Board of Trade. I think that, when a right hon. Gentleman makes a statement which is open to challenge, he ought to have the courtesy to give way in order that his statement can be challenged.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Boothby) referred to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) on the probability of convertibility, and he also referred to what happen in 1947, and indicated that what happened then was a complete reply. I think my hon. Friend was under a complete misapprehension, because what happened in 1947 was this. The £ was then exchanging with the dollar at a fixed

  1383
  rate; I think it was 4 dollars 3 cents. We had certain assets placed at our disposal by the United States Government, and, from a certain date, persons who had sterling in this country were entitled to buy dollars at a fixed rate of exchange, but that is not the problem of covertibility which many of us are talking about.
  What we are talking about is allowing the £ to find its own level, and, in that event, there will be no fixed rate between the £ and the dollar, nor any fixed rate between the £ and the franc. If Frenchmen sought to buy sterling with their francs, it would send up the price of sterling against them, and if they used sterling to buy dollars. it would raise the price of dollars against them. Hon. Gentlemen opposite do not appear to understand that.
  There is no time at this hour to go into the whole complex problem regarding convertibility and all the rest, but I do not regard convertibility as an objective. I regard it as a method for bringing about the desired effect. The plain truth of the matter is that, if we allow the £ to exchange freely we cannot have that and an adverse belance of payments. It is the complete and absolute cure, always provided that we do not allow the printing presses of the Bank of England to run away. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer has complete control over the printing presses of the Bank of England we can cure the balance of payments problem, although any correction of an adverse balance of payments is unpleasant.
  The present system, inherited from the Socialist Government, means that the choice is to be made by Whitehall. I want the choice to be made by the people, because that is what convertibility means. I should decide, by my daily actions and purchases, what is to he imported, but, at the present time, we do not decide it. It is decided by the autocratic actions of Ministers, but it does not follow that they are right.
  Therefore, I am in favour of convertibility at the earliest possible moment, though I realise, of course, that we have to have certain precautions. Let us not run away with the idea that the stocks of gold and dollars are small for the purpose. My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mr. Arbuthnot) and I were dis-
  1384
  cussing earlier this evening what happened prior to 1914, and I looked up the figures. We were then on the gold standard, and the stock of gold, the instrument of the Bank rate and certain other operations were the sole defence. In June, 1911, and in 1912, the stock of bullion in the Bank of England was worth about £39 million. The stock of gold and dollars today is 15 times as great, and the duties of the £ were very heavy in those days. It is not true to say that £600 million is a small figure for operating this system.
  I would ask hon. Members, when they have time, to go into the Library and read a most interesting speech made on 18th August, 1919, by the then Prime Minister, Mr. Lloyd George. He described the situation. It is fascinating to read the speech because it is slap up to date. In the course of that speech Mr. Lloyd George, as he then was, announced that on the following day we would cease to support by borrowing the exchange value of the It dropped heavily, I think from 4.60 dollars to 3.20 dollars—I am speaking from memory—and then gradually it built up again. But within six months it had eliminated the adverse balance of payments. That was a time of what we now call "full employment."
  It will be remembered that in April, 1925, the present Prime Minister, then the Chancellor of the Exchequer, restored the gold standard. I think there was only one mistake made in doing that, a mistake in which all political parties joined, and that was in going back to the old parity instead of choosing a new one. But, in spite of that, industrial production in the next four years went up by 10 per cent., and the figure of those employed increased by three quarters of a million.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And there was the 1926 strike.
  Sir H. Williams: The strike of 1926 was not due to that. It is perfectly well known that the late Lord Stamp gave that false impression, but the strike was due to the coal situation in the Ruhr Valley of Germany, as everyone is aware. However, I do not want to be led into those details because I see that the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) is getting restless. He wants to break into the debate soon, and I do not want to delay him much longer.

  1385
  Then we come to the tragedy of 1929–31. Week after week from the time the Labour Party took office unemployment increased. Then we come to the end of July. 1931, and ultimately, on 24th August, to the tragic collapse of the Labour Government. They ran away from their responsibility exactly as they did last October. They knew what was coming. Hon. Members opposite rejoice beyond measure that they are not in office at this moment. I observe that they make very few efforts in the Division Lobby to win; that is very evident.
  In August of that year the Coalition Government was formed, and then there came the tragic mutiny of Invergordon and the collapse of the gold standard. That is a fact. Anybody can go into the Library and read the HANSARD of that time or read the summary of it in "The Times." There was a period of great difficulty for some six months, and there was the Import Duties Act. But the combination of the two restored the adverse balance of payments. So the same method which restored the adverse balance of payments on two occasions at intervals of 22 years—the first occasion when we had full employment and the second occasion when we had about the worst unemployment in living memory —must have something to be said for it.
  I shall not develop that any further except to say that when we approach the problem of convertibility I hope we shall approach it jointly with other matters and see that it does not have that terrible restriction on our economic liberty. The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade is hampering us in the most appalling way at this time, and I think that that view is widely held on both sides of the House. We must also rid ourselves of that other restricting thing in our commercial treaties, the most-favoured-nation clause, which makes it impossible for us to do a bargain with one nation without extending the benefit of that bargain to every other nation.
  There arc other things which I might develop, such as the need to reduce the burden of taxation, but I think that I have taken more than my fair time having regard to the wish of the right hon. Member for Ipswich to speak. I am sure it will be a pleasure to listen to him. It will be a delightful speech. At times, I am sure, it will be delightfully irrelevant
  1386
  and now I am looking forward to listening to it.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. R. R. Stokes: I am greatly obliged to the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) for shortening the period of my anxiety neurosis, and I hope I shall not disappoint him. I do not propose to follow his vagaries except to say that he is quite wrong, as far as my memory serves me, about the history of unemployment in the 1920s and 1930s.
  Sir H. Williams: The Labour Government took office in June, 1929, when unemployment was much lower than for some time previously, but thereafter, until August, 1931, it went up to nearly the largest figure ever known.
  Mr. Stokes: The hon. Member also put questions about what happened before 1914 with regard to gold. Surely he ought to remember that one thing happened before then and one thing has happened since. Before 1914 there was practically no variation in the rate of foreign exchange anywhere. The situation is quite different now, and since 1914 there have been two world wars, which he seems to forget, and our economic situation has changed.
  But I do not want to deal with the hon. Member for Croydon, East. I want to deal with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When the right hon. Gentleman opened the debate we were all full of expectancy that we should hear something fairly substantial, perhaps unpleasant, certainly probably constructive. But really and truly, without wishing to castigate him too much, there was nothing at all in his speech. On the only point on which he could have told us something—that was what the Prime Minister was going to say tomorrow—he would not tell us anything at all.
  All he said was that consultations and talks had been going on and will go on, but really we had no proposals at all. The only comfort that I have derived out of the debate so far is that there seems to be general agreement that to refer to our balance of payments problem in isolation and as a short-term problem, instead of a world and long-term problem, is wrong. Most people now recognise that at last.

  1387
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeen-shire (Mr. Boothby), with whom I am inclined to agree in some of the things which he said, pointed out that he did not think that there was an orthodox method of curing our problem. I am inclined to agree with that view because, as I understand it, all methods so far tried have failed to bridge the gap or to offer any more than a short-term palliative for our immediate embarrassment. It is not merely a question of closing the gap or trying to keep it closed. There is a great deal more to be done. The problem does not concern only ourselves, because in addition to closing the gap we have to find some way or other of coming to the aid of all backward peoples everywhere.
  Before I put forward my suggestions I want to put up one or two general considerations. The first is that we in this country realise, or if we do not realise it we ought to do so, that our standard of living is much higher than that of probably 75 per cent. of the rest of the world. We realise that if we are to keep that standard or to advance it still further, as we all hope we shall, and at the same time be of some help to other people, then it is perfectly true that we must have more and more production and higher and higher efficiency and that everybody must work harder. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I really mean everybody. I am not talking only about the chaps on the benches, but also of some of those to whom the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire, referred as being engaged in the wrong job or doing nothing at all. They must all come in. and it is as well that we should realise that from the very outset.
  Secondly, there is no way out of our difficulty except by the closest cooperation economically with the United States. It seems to me that for stability in Western Europe and overseas development we must have American cooperation—and who doubts that we shall get it? Surely a nation which had the imagination to invent Cash and Carry, Lend-Lease, Marshall Aid and the rest will come in on one or other of the solutions which must be found to put the world back on its feet and ensure a really lasting peace. I know that means that there will be sacrifices all round. But, as Mr. Stevenson said in his adoption
  1388
  speech in Chicago the other day, there are no gains without pains, and it means that despite our efforts to advance ourselves, we shall have to do without in order to get things right elsewhere.
  The cornerstone of any progress which we can make elsewhere must be security in Western Europe. If we do not have that security, we cannot improve conditions overseas. I am not going to talk about defence, because that will be dealt with tomorrow, but I want to say this to the Chancellor who, no doubt, will pass it on to the Prime Minister. If cuts are contemplated I hope that they will not mess the programme about.
  I am thinking of what happened in the last war when it was found, for example, that it was more economical to complete bad tanks and run them into the scrap yards than to stop production. I hope that any cuts that are made are made carefully, constructively and after due and proper consideration with the other members of N.A.T.O. Otherwise, it seems to me that the situation will go wrong.
  I do not wish to talk about Germany, but I hope people appreciate the tremendous advantages which Germany enjoys at the moment in that she has no arms burden, and that owing to our futile dismantling policy she has more efficient production than she had before and is able to compete with us much more acutely in world markets than she would have been able had the situation been handled differently.
  I do not believe there is any sense in trying on our own to battle this out with the United States of America. The Prime Minister has talked of a Commonwealth Conference to be held in November of this year. I should like a Commonwealth team to approach the United States of America on this whole question of the development of raw materials and capital investments overseas. What we obviously want is more and more production, especially of food. Otherwise there will be catastrophic shortages in about 10 years time. That is, indeed, borne out by the Paley Report which, no doubt, the Chancellor has studied. That states that whereas there was a 15 per cent. surplus in raw materials in 1900, there was a 9 per cent. shortage by 1950 and there will be a 20 per cent, shortage in raw materials by 1970.

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  "The Times" in an article in the City columns yesterday said:
  "If this is the direction of events, it will open a huge and growing market from now onwards to the primary producers in other parts of the Commonwealth and the sterling area. And this in its turn would mean…the dollar gap, in the form that it exists now, would be closed without any difficulty."
  That is the theme to which I wish to turn. What a bright prospect is offered if the situation is tackled properly and the dollar gap is closed for ever.
  In the proposals that I want to make, I want to make it clear that I am not intending anything that is unfriendly to our friends across the Atlantic, or to the Australians, the Canadians or anyone else. The main point is simply this. There is, as the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire said, absolutely no solution to the dollar gap problem by exporting manufactured goods to a country which already overproduces them. The situation will not get better; indeed, it will get worse. Before the 1939 war American productive capacity was about 33 per cent. below that of the whole of Western Europe. By the time the war ended it had increased so much that it was 25 per cent. above that of the whole of Western Europe.
  Now there is this huge defence programme in America. Since it started she has increased her steel output by an annual amount equal to our total output and by the time defence is out of the way, in a year or two's time, who knows what will be her productive capacity in relation to Western Europe? Surely it is going to he higher again'? I agree that in the period 1946–50 Europe caught up a bit, but the productivity gap will surely open out again.
  I do not agree with the view that because the amount that we want to import into America is so little it will be easy of achievement. I agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire that there is no reason on earth why American manufacturers should be content to let us do that, and they will be even less inclined to help us out of our difficulty with manufactured goods as and when and if they run into or find themselves in a slump.
  I want to make one or two proposals which I consider to be constructive, as to what should be done on the short-term problem. The first trading area which I
  1390
  want to consider is Canada. I hope that my friends over there will not take amiss what I want to say. Canadians have always been most generous to us and have wholeheartedly co-operated with us in every respect. I pay tribute particularly to the help given by Charles Howe when he was over here last year at the Materials Conference. Cannot we get nearer a balance between ourselves and Canada? I know that in 1950, as a result of great efforts, we reduced the gap to about £50 million, but that was by restricting imports into this country from Canada, and it did not really suit either of us. By 1951 the gap had opened again to £130 million.
  My point is that the gap can be closed without inconveniencing anybody. It is not a question of trying to sell to Canada something which she already has, as we have been trying to do in the case of America. Canada imports from America something in the order of £186 million of capital goods—or she did in 1951—and she imported from us only £13 million, whereas the out-of-balance between Canada and ourselves was the difference between £261 million worth of imports from Canada and £127 million worth of exports in return—which is a difference of £134 million.
  Even if half the capital goods now purchased by Canada from the United States came from this country—and I agree that under present circumstances that would mean that we would have to have some sort of system of priorities to ensure that the right goods went to Canada—that gap would really start to disappear. I want to ask the Chancellor if the Government are doing anything about this. Has that particular point been considered and, if so, with what degree of success?
  I want to touch lightly on one matter which the Chancellor mentioned—tobacco. I am glad to hear from him that something is being done, though he did not say what. All he said was that the dollar purchases were down heavily. I call to mind that in 1951 the imports of tobacco from the United States amounted to £51 million. That ranks as the second biggest import from the United States, after grain. It ranks ahead even of cotton. I do not understand why we should not get more tobacco from Eastern Europe. I am perfectly aware that at the moment we have to

  1391
  pay in gold; but I cannot see that that matters because we have to pay in dollars for the tobacco we buy from the United States.
  What is being done to increase the imports of tobacco from Rhodesia? The trend seems to be wrong. The United States have been shipping tobacco in increasing amounts over the last two years. The figure has risen from 65 million kilos in 1950 to 97 million kilos in 1951, whereas the imports from Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria and Rhodesia have all gone down. It seems to me to be a completely wrong trend. To those who say that people do not like that sort of tobacco, my answer is that they will jolly well have to like it, and that is all about it. I am fortified in my point of view by reflecting that no self-respecting American ever smokes a Virginian cigarette.
  There is a third point I want to put to the Chancellor. I chased the President of the Board of Trade about this even when I was a Minister, and he was my colleague, and I never got a satisfactory answer from his Department. It is not a very important thing, but it seems to me that there is something funny about whisky.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Stokes: This is our best dollar earner, and £20 million worth of whisky goes to America every year. Everything we buy from America has gone up in price three, four or five times, yet for some astonishing reason the Americans pay us only 10 cents a bottle more for Scotch whisky than they did in 1938. There is something very odd about it. It is nonsense to say that we cannot sell the stuff because it is a snob drink over there. About 75 per cent. of it goes in what they call Scotch on the Rocks, which is a lump of ice with a splash of Scotch on it. They drink a lot of whisky over there—300 million gallons a year; and we send six million gallons, which is only 2 per cent. of the whole.
  Try as the distillers will to persuade me, I do not believe that more could not be done and that we could not get a better price for whisky. All the Americans pay at present for a case of whisky is 86s. If hon. Members work
  1392
  that back into dollars, they will find that it is just over 12 dollars a case, which is an absolutely ridiculous price. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will look into this and not be fobbed off by his Department. I have tried this subject with several Chancellors of the Exchequer before, and the backroom boys have always done them down. On one occasion the matter was referred to the Foreign Office, although how on earth they got into it I cannot think. It may be that they thought there was something peculiarly fishy about it.
  May I refer briefly to films? I believe we could do without some of these Hollywood stars. We spent £9 million in 1951, which I agree was a great improvement on the previous year, but if people had to choose between tobacco and films, on the one hand, and food, on the other, surely they would sooner have food.
  I come now to the question of gold, which I know is a controversial subject on which views differ very widely. I have asked previous Chancellors of the Exchequer whether they have tackled this problem with the International Monetary Fund in order to raise the dollar value of gold and get an adjustment all round. Indeed, I cannot understand why we in the sterling area put up with a price of 35 dollars a fine ounce. I am perfectly well aware that if the price were increased we should have to pay more for it in this country, but as we in the sterling area produce 75 per cent. of the gold produced outside Russia, a rise in the price would benefit the sterling area as a whole.
  People tell me it could be double the present price. I do not know what it should be. Certainly the free market price is above 35 dollars at the present time. Let us suppose it went up to double that figure. There would be 680 million dollars more coming into the sterling area, assuming, of course, that the Americans agreed to play—and I do not see why they should not, because they would get an automatic enhancement of the 24,000 million ounces or whatever it is which they have buried in a hole in Fort Knox. [Laughter.]
  What bemuses me—although I am not laughing about this; it is not a laughing matter—is this very curious aspect, which is very similar to that of Scotch whisky: dental gold, which is of less fineness than

  1393
  monetary gold—monetary gold is 24 carats, whereas the stuff you stick in your teeth is 18 carats—has a price about 30 per cent. more than the other gold. There seems to be something funny about that. I do not want to labour the point, although my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) and myself pursued the Minister of Economic Affairs at Question time the other day without getting a satisfactory answer.
  Will the Government look into it and will they consider, too, this next point, which is the most important point of all? The gold and dollar reserve of the world is supposed to provide a cushion on which we conduct international trade. Since 1937 the gold and dollar reserves in the areas outside the United States have increased by one-fifth but their imports have increased by two-and-a-half times, so that the moment there is fluctuation, a panic follows. There is not a big enough cushion on which to conduct trade, and the result is that imports are cut, restrictions are imposed and unemployment follows. I should have thought that one result of revaluing gold would be a much softer cushion upon which trade could be conducted, and that we should avoid many of these bumps. So much for the short-term proposals. I want to suggest one or two things on the long-term side.
  I think that we all agree that what we want today is to provide alternative sources of supply for some of the things which we now get from the dollar area. I do not see why this should not be done if it is tackled properly. I am perfectly aware of what the late Administration did in giving a start to the Volta River project which was to produce 200,000 tons of aluminium a year. Will the Government tell us what has happened about that? When will production start, and how is that scheme getting on? What about tungsten and more cotton from Uganda? Tungsten replaces molybdenum and all the molybdenum we buy comes from America to the tune of about 3,000 tons. Both are in short supply.
  I was interested in this when I was Minister of Materials, and I have been to Uganda since. I gather that the tendency of the Government is not to do anything about it. I believe that without very much trouble we could very speedily get the tungsten production up in Uganda from what it is today—50 tons
  1394
  or 60 tons a year to 500 or 1,000 tons. What is being done about nickel and lead from Tanganyika? At present about 14,000 out of the 15,000 tons of nickel which we get comes from Canada, for which we have to pay dollars, and a great deal of lead comes from America. What is being done to push on with that development in Tanganyika?
  Again, I had a look at that, but things seem to have got bogged down because years ago people were given wrong concessions. People who are given concessions which they will not work ought to be blown out of the way. I hope that the Government will do something about that. [An HON. MEMBER: "Groundnuts."] I am not talking about groundnuts today. I want to say a word about Australia.
  We get both wheat and meat from Australia. Are we paying the Australians enough for their meat? It is no use offering them 8½d. per lb. when we offer British farmers 2s. 8d. per lb., because obviously the Australians will not produce the meat. It seems to me that the economic scheme which runs between ourselves and Australia, the capital investment scheme, seems to have gone wrong. The effect of it all now seems to be that Australia is rapidly becoming a secondary industry country and will grow less and less food, and we shall find ourselves in greater and greater difficulty here. She will take less and less from us, and, as we know from recent experience, that leads to disastrous unemployment.
  Finally, on the precious metals, which concerns shipments from America, are the Government satisfied that the copper produced from the Rhodesian Copper Belt is sufficient to meet the whole of the sterling area needs? I know that depends not only on just getting the copper ore out but depends on coal from Wankie, too. I hope that energetic measures are being taken to obtain the necessary coal production from Wankie and to overcome the transport difficulties of bringing coal from the South to the Northern Copper Belt.
  I also want to say a word about overseas investment. All that I have been saying really turns on that. If we are to get more materials, obviously more has to be invested overseas. I do not see how we shall ever get for ourselves

  1395
  and others a sufficient supply of raw materials without a long-term investment programme. This must be worked in collaboration with other members of the Commonwealth and with the Americans. If this conference of the Commonwealth Ministers takes place in November, perhaps it will be speedily followed with a conference with America and other countries as well. I hope that we shall go into it on a big enough scale. Places like India, Pakistan, South-East Asia and Central Africa are crying for capital goods.
  I understand the difficulty at the present time, but what is the long-term scheme, and are we really going about it in the right way? I know people do not always agree with me on some of these economic matters, but what always surprises me is that when war breaks out there is no difficulty about money or materials, whereas the moment there is peace there is an awful quarrel and there are always shortages. That does not seem to me to make sense. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to find a way out of the economic absurdity that a lot is available when we are determined to blow it into thin air but not enough when we want to have peace and plenty. What is wanted is a new approach to the whole problem.
  I now want to say something about the home front. What are the Government attempting to do here? Most hon. Members who have spoken have said that what we want most is an increase in the production of food and an increase in engineering production and so on. But what have the Government done to encourage the farmer? One of my hon. Friends said with truth that the only thing the Government have done to encourage the farmer is to put up the Bank rate, the interest charges and the rates of the Agricultural Mortgages Corporation. That will not help very much to stimulate increased production.
  To refer to one of my old themes, we should relieve the marginal producer and stimulate greater production by the people who have the better land. The way to do that is to put a rate on site value. We should get better production that way without pouring money into the pockets of the landlords and putting a penalty on those who do not use land to
  1396
  its best advantage. But that is a rather wider theme which we can discuss another time.
  I want to say a word about engineering, for that is my trade. We have been short of men in the engineering industry ever since the end of the war. I do not know whether anything can be done by putting up the retiring age. When presenting his Budget the Chancellor kept saying what a tremendous amount of incentive he had produced for the workers. I fail to understand where the incentive lies. It is true that some of the lower-paid workers were relieved of Income Tax, but that is not the problem in the engineering industry.
  The chap we want to encourage in the engineering industry is the skilled man, and, more particularly, we also want to encourage men to become skilled. I do not want to tread on the toes of my hon. Friends from the trade unions, and I recognise that it is their affair and not mine to work this out, but if we are to get the right number of skilled men in the engineering trade the gap must be opened again in an upward direction between the semi-skilled and the skilled men, for otherwise it is just not worth anybody's while to become skilled.
  I have a note here about the balance of payments between ourselves and America and what the last administration did in helping to close the gap by means of the refinery at Fawley. After all, the cost of buying oil from America is about £35 million a year.
  I hope that the President of the Board of Trade when he speaks tomorrow will tell us what is being done about the production of Cornish tin. At the beginning of the century about 12,000 tons a year came from Cornwall, and I understand that the amount is now about 1,200 tons. I am assured by the Cornish tin miners that if they were given proper encouragement, and, no doubt, some relief in direct taxation, they would be able to raise their output to 7,000 tons a year.
  There are two other matters to which I wish to refer before I conclude. I believe that it is fast becoming recognised, as was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South and the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeenshire, that there is a new approach

  1397
  to the question of creditors and debtors. It is more and more being recognised that it is as much the responsibility of the creditor to get out of credit as it is for the debtor to get out of debt. I am speaking not about individuals but about international affairs—and that the old game of getting one another into unpay-able debt is simply not a runner any more. The only way it can be done is taking goods in exchange or giving goods away. If a nation does not like to take the goods in exchange it can give them away, as we in the past have, in effect, done.
  I wonder if the Chancellor will examine what is known as the 20th Century Economic System in International Trade. It was studied by the British Chambers of Commerce assembled at their annual meeting in Johannesburg in 1948 and recommended for the consideration of the Finance Ministers of the Commonwealth as being worthy of adoption. I have not time to go into the details, but briefly the system was to pay the exporting country in the currency of the importing country and that gives the exporting country an option on the goods of the importing country, which, if it is not exercised within a term of seven years, lapses on the principle that if a man goes without his breakfast for seven years he can go without it altogether. [Laughter.] There is a great deal to be said for it. It may be a comical way of putting it, but I hope the Chancellor will examine it because the United Nations Report on Full Employment suggests pretty well the same sort of thing. I have not time to develop that.
  One other point is this. I have always been puzzled at the way nations run their affairs. I am thinking of our old friends, the backroom boys of the Treasury. As the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire said, if they were given a chance they would bog everything down. If we were to run our affairs and businesses the way the nation runs its affairs we should never get on at all, but what I want to ask is whether the Chancellor would consider a greater trend towards what I call the capital and revenue budget. They do it successfully in South Africa. Why can it not be done here? It is the only way in the foreseeable future that I can see of relieving the groaning burden on the taxpayer.
  1398
  By that I do not mean what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackburn. West means, namely, taking 2s. off the Income Tax. I am thinking of indirect taxation because indirect taxation falls very heavily on every member of the population. It is an absurd idea to think of paying everything back within a short period when it can be done on the capital and revenue budget basis of spreading over the peak loads to the disadvantage of nobody and to the great advantage and relief of the people as a whole.
  I come to my conclusion. I heard the Chancellor the other day say that the cost of living was coming down in everything except food. I hope the people of this country realise that much of what has happened in the way of the fall in the cost of raw materials was brought about as a result of the visit of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to Washington in December, 1951. As a result of that the International Materials Conference was formed, and a more orderly system of buying was brought into existence instead of everyone going on a sort of smash and grab raid and forcing everything up. It is due to that effort that prices have come down.
  In my opinion prices will continue to come down. I am not one of those persons who thinks it a good idea that they should go up.. It is much more important to get prices down instead of wages up. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That is not the reason why the people living here stopped digging for tin in Cornwall and went to Malaya. The reason they did it was to get more profits out of it. It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to cheer me on this, but that is the honest fact.
  I want to re-emphasise in an absolute conclusion that this is a world problem. It really is a fact that there is enough in the world for everybody. All we need to do is to tackle the job, not only to satisfy ourselves but to bring peace and plenty to the teeming millions in the backward countries and to remember that there is no answer to Communism by being anti-Communist. We have to show that we can provide something better. There is plenty everywhere if we only tackle it aright. What the world expects from this great Christian country of ours is that we shall give a lead, and I hope

  1399
  that the Government, despite its predilections, will bend its efforts in that way in order that peace and plenty shall prevail everywhere.
  9.41 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm McCorquodale: My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) said that he would sit down quickly in order to hear what he was sure would be a delightfully racy and amusing speech from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes).
  We have certainly had that, and I am sure that the House has enjoyed his widespread comments about various things ranging from the defence of Western Europe, the futile, dismantling policy for Germany which was the policy of his own Government, to his sensible comments on skilled operatives. The right hon. Gentleman had evidently been reading a speech of mine on the Budget. He even made some comments on whisky, and I am glad that he drinks Scotch and not rye. Then he made some remarks in which I was particularly interested, on the subject of gold, and I am glad that he raised that question.
  I only wish that he and his right hon. Friend the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, when they were in office, had done something about the price of gold. I believe that one of the things which upsets the equilibrium of our currency at present is the absurd fetish which keeps the price of gold much below the world price. I have not time to expand that tonight, but I hope that the Government will look into this matter seriously.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), in opening the debate for the Opposition, said that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not given him much to talk about. He then proceeded to talk for over 70 minutes. He was followed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) for over 40 minutes, followed by the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Norman Smith) for 35 minutes, followed again, from the opposite side of the House, by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) for over 35 minutes—over three hours from those four right hon. and hon. Gentlemen. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]
  1400
  I think that a protest should be made from the back benches on both sides of the House against the length of the speeches of those right hon. and hon. Gentlemen. Much as I enjoy listening to the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, 70 minutes is rather a strain. As he always has something interesting to say, we would prefer it in instalments of one a month instead of having the whole dose at one time.
  On the other hand, I much welcomed the confident tone and tenor of the opening speech of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. I believe much too much has been made out of the difficulties of this country. There is a proneness to cry "wolf" by all sections of the community. I think we should be proud that in the last six or seven months we have been able to win back this country from a position of acute anxiety and difficulty into a position where we are, at any rate, in more or less balance with the rest of the world.
  That has been done by the wise policy followed by the Government and also by the hard work of all the people of this country—miners, steel workers and everybody else. We ought to take credit for it and not disparage our position too much and not be as gloomy as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton was.
  I want to make a few remarks about currency problems. Some people seem to think that the adoption of right currency and economic and monetary policies work miracles. I do not believe that it does. However much we adopt the right monetary policy, if we have not got hard work and efficiency in industry to back it up we shall not get anywhere. Conversely, even though we have hard work and efficiency in industry, if the wrong economic policy is followed by the Government of the day then, in spite of whatever efforts the individual may make, the country goes downhill.
  It must be clear, I think, to all that the policy followed by the last Government in these monetary fields was wrong, because in spite of all the hard work which was done in other spheres by the Government, by hon. Members here and by innumerable people up and down the country, the result at the end of five years was that we were in worse difficulties than we were at the beginning.

  1401
  It also appears from these facts that the start which my right hon. Friend has made in his monetary policy must be more correct, because over the last six months the result has been that we have considerably improved our position. Therefore, I say to him. "Go ahead with the present policies that you are following. Expand them. Build up trade with the Empire, and I believe that all will be well."
  There was one point on which I did agree with the right hon. Member for Huyton. The speech of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade the other day about American tariffs was very valuable and necessary, and will be well received in large circles of people in the United States of America. I am very glad that he adopted the robust attitude. It follows on the successful negotiations in which he persuaded the Swiss, for example, to play their part and to take in, as they ought to do, our woollen goods free of tariffs. I trust that my right hon. Friend will continue these robust practices in dealing with our trade with other friendly countries and I believe that they will bear fruit. Timidity in these matters never pays.
  In the few minutes that remain, I wish to refer to the export policy, the results of the export position, and to the effect of certain tendencies in this country towards what may happen to the export trade. As has been said, the export trade position, especially in consumer goods, is at present extremely difficult. Not only is the seller's market over, but other factors have arisen.
  The wild ascent of world raw material prices when war broke out in Korea; the consequent panic restocking and overstocking of consumer goods, and especially of textiles, throughout the world; and the subsequent drastic fall in the price of raw materials, which inevitably followed that wild rush upwards in world prices, have caused the most acute indigestion in the consumer markets of the world.
  Anything that the Government can do to ease the overstocking position, especially of this country, will be most welcome, but I think that the situation is bound to right itself within the next few months. Indeed, there are indications that the position is beginning slightly to
  1402
  improve, not only here, but in other markets. World consumer trade will inevitably revive. The world has got to have consumer goods, and especially textiles, but what we have to consider is whether we will get our fair share of that world consumer trade when it does revive. The only way that we can guarantee to get it is if our costs and qualities are right. If they are right, we will get our fair share of the markets of the world and will keep our people in employment.
  It is everybody's desire, in every party, to maintain a full and high level of employment. I say this in no spirit of controversy, but I believe that ever since the war the Opposition have been too fearful of the evils of deflation—and they are very real evils; being so fearful, they have not been fearful enough of the evils of inflation.
  At present I believe inflation is the greatest danger to our employment position. As the right hon. Gentleman said, our prices have to be right. If we have inflation it pushes up costs and our prices are wrong. If inflation continues we shall not be able to sell consumer goods overseas and there will be unemployment in the export trades. Today, inflation is even more dangerous than that because, if we do not get foreign currency by our exports, we shall not be able to buy raw materials and other than those in the export trades will be thrown out of work as well.
  I therefore maintain that today the chief danger to a good stable level of employment in this country is inflation and that everything we can do to stop inflation and keep our costs down is in the best interests of maintaining full employment.
  Of what do our costs consist? Costs of production consist of three things: cost of raw materials, which is going down at present, wholesale prices are falling; the profit level, the amount of profits earned; and the wages and salaries paid. Her Majesty's Government have endeavoured to limit profits by means of an Excess Profits Levy. In any case, profits are beginning to fall owing to competition in world markets.
  But we have to remember that wages are ten times more important than profits in industry today. A 1 per cent. increase in wages is equivalent to a 10 per cent. increase in profits over the general level of industry. Hence, if on both sides of

  1403
  the House we are really serious in our determination to maintain a high level of employment in this country—and I believe we all are—we must support the urging of the Chancellor for wage restraint which is not allied to increases in production.
  As much as anyone in the House, I dislike Government interference in negotiation on wages conditions. I have been in a highly organised trade—the printing trade—all my adult life and I believe that we can get on better ourselves by dealing in the trade than by any Government advising us. I believe that is the general opinion of those in industry. If that is so the responsibility rests directly on the shoulders of industry, both management and trade unions, to see that restraint is maintained in anything which might put up costs.
  I think that Parliament, statesmen and politicians should urge the same. I am, therefore, glad to be able to compliment right hon. and hon. Members opposite in putting this firmly before the nation. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), speaking this month in Manchester, said:
  "I say to the miners, the steel workers and the whole trade union movement who are putting in for increased wages…face the grim facts that you cannot have increased wages if production is lowered. If you try to get them, what will happen will be inflation of a most serious kind."
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Go on.
  Mr. McCorquodale: I will go on. Mr. Deakin, Chairman of the T.U.C., said at Scarborough:
  "I make no apology for having advocated a policy of restraint."
  We have leaders in industry and leaders on the other side of the House advocating restraint.
  That brings me to the question, raised by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley), of the desirability of the Minister of Labour sending back for reconsideration by wages councils certain agreements for wage increases sent to him for consideration. The reason which my right hon. and learned Friend gave to the House seemed a very proper one to me, and I believe that if the situation had been reversed and right hon. Gentlemen opposite had still been forming the Government the Minister of Labour.
  1404
  whether it was the former Minister or his predecessor, would have acted in the same way. Indeed, they both did act in the same way, and from time to time referred back decisions to wages councils for reconsideration.
  Mr. Padley Mr. Padley rose—
  Mr. McCorquodale: No. I cannot give way. I have only three minutes, because I have to sit down at 10 o'clock, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
  The hon. Member for Ogmore made a very reasoned and, I thought, moderate speech, but he missed the whole point. His whole criticism seemed to me to miss the point of the action of the Minister The wages councils came to the decision they did before the Chancellor made his statement to the National Joint Advisory Council. The National Joint Advisory Council consists of representatives of the trade unions and the employers, but not, I think, representatives of the wages councils in industry.
  The Minister thought it was right to bring to the notice of the wages councils the remarks which the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought fit to make, in all seriousness, to industry generally. If my right hon. and learned Friend had not done that, if he had not given the wages councils the chance to consider what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, he would have laid himself open to the charge that he was ignoring the Chancellor's statement; that he regarded it as of no importance, and that it was merely words.
  I think it absolutely inevitable, if he took the Chancellor seriously—and we do take the Chancellor seriously, and all the arguments I have been addressing to the House tonight have been designed to show that wage restraint is a most serious subject—that in pursuance of his duty, and in the national interest, he should refer this back for consideration.
  I would urge the hon. Member for Ogmore to push forward with reconsideration as fast as possible; to get a new decision. Whether it will be the same as the old one or not I do not know; whether his council and other councils, having considered the Chancellor's statement, will come to the same decision or not is up to them. But they should get that through quickly and bring it back to the Minister again for ratification, and

  1405
  get on with the job. I do not believe that then his people will for very long be held out of whatever the wages council recommend in their reconsideration. It is now up to the wages councils to push on with their reconsideration of the problem.
  This has raised the whole question of wages councils and the matter should be gone into again. I was Parliamentary Secretary to the late Mr. Ernest Bevin when he introduced the wages councils. He stated in the House, and privately to me, that he hoped these wages councils would be able to be replaced by joint industrial councils and normal negotiating machinery after they had stimulated organisation on both sides of industry, so that we could give up interference by the Government and get on with proper wage negotiations between the two sides of industry.
  That has not happened. The position of the three independent members who have acquired complete responsibility for the wage levels and the conditions in industry if the two sides disagree, has lessened the responsibilities of either management or trade unions instead of increasing them. I believe that the hon. Member for Ogmore, if he reflects on this, will agree that his good work of organising his members is retarded by the fact that wages councils, by law, guarantee wages to the people, whether they are within the union or not. I would recommend to the Government and to industry that we reconsider the whole question of the organisation of these trade unions being governed by the wages councils, because I believe that they could do better with voluntary machinery.
  It being Ten o'Clock, the debate stood adjourned,
  Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

  HOUSING BILL
  Lords Amendments considered.
  HOUSING BILL

    Title
    Lords Amendment: In line 11, at end, insert:
    "and to extend the powers of local authorities to acquire land under Part V of that Act."
    10.1 p.m.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is consequential to that which follows to insert the new Clause A.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    New Clause A.—(POWER TO ACQUIRE LAND FOR SHOPS RECREATION GROUNDS AND OTHER ANCILLARY PURPOSES.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 5, line 34, at end, insert:
    A.—The power of a local authority to acquire land under Part V of the Housing Act, 1936, shall include power to acquire land (including houses or other buildings) proposed to be used for any purpose authorised by section eighty of that Act or section seven of the Housing Act, 1949 (which confer additional powers in connection with the provision of housing accommodation), whether or not that land forms part of a site for the erection of houses.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Clause is really of rather a technical character, but it has a useful purpose. Since the consolidation of part of the housing code by the Housing Act, 1936, there have been some legal doubts whether a local authority has power under these Acts to acquire land for such uses as recreation grounds or amenities of that kind in connection with existing housing estates. Successive Ministers have been advised by their local authorities that it was doubtful whether they could issue orders for acquiring land for existing estates, although it is clear that they have the power to acquire such land in connection with new estates.
    That led to the rather absurd position that the older estates could never be provided with these amenities under these powers, whereas new estates could be.

    1407
    The only purpose of this Clause is to make it quite clear that local authorities, with the approval of the Minister, have power to acquire land to improve old estates as well as land for the benefit of new estates.
    Question put, and agreed to.

  TOWN DEVELOPMENT BILL
  Lords Amendments considered.
  TOWN DEVELOPMENT BILL

    Title
    Lords Amendment: In line 5, at end, insert:
    "and part of subsection (1) of section five of the New Towns Act, 1946."
    10.3 p.m.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment to the long Title is consequential on a Government Amendment which comes later, and perhaps it would be more convenient to pass this Amendment and discuss it in connection with the later one.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 1.—(DEFINITION OF TOWN DEVELOPMENT.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 1, line 12, leave out from "with" to "the", and insert:
    "all appropriate public services, facilities for public worship, recreation and amenity, and other requirements."
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    The effect of this Amendment would be to substitute the word on the Order Paper for the words
    "any public services and other incidentals needed."
    This, again, is something between a drafting Amendment and one of substance. Its purpose is simply to make clear that the provision of such things as playing fields is a necessary part of town development. We have not mentioned that specifically, because to do that, as hon. and learned Gentlemen will
    1408
    know, would be to throw doubts upon the generality of the power, so this form of words has been suggested in another place to make it clear that recreation and amenity and such other requirements should be included in the powers which are here acquired. I think everyone will agree with that purpose, and I am advised that this form of words makes possible the wider purpose that we all want to achieve.
    Mr. J. A. Sparks: Before we pass from this Amendment, I should like to ask the Minister to be a little more clear on the precise meaning of the words which he is proposing to insert here—the words "recreation and amenity and other requirements." I can see no objection whatever to doing what the right hon. Gentleman suggests in regard to playing fields and recreation, but does not this open the door very wide? The Minister himself said that it opened the door widely.
    Is the Minister trying to find accommodation for licensed premises? We know we have it in the New Towns Bill, and the Town Development Bill is a subsidiary to that Measure. Is the right hon. Gentleman proposing to provide for licensed premises and for dog-racing tracks? There is a whole host of things that may be regarded as amenities and recreations, but which may at the same time be rather undesirable. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to give us some assurance on this, and to tell us quite plainly if that really is his proposal.
    Mr. Macmillan: With the leave of the House, I should like to answer that point. I am not here dealing with public services or public-houses. The wording of this Amendment follows Section 1 (2) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944—a very respectable period of Coalition—and Section 119 (1) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, perhaps even more respectable from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite. That was the definition used in those Acts, and we have merely inserted those words in this Bill in order to make quite sure that we cover the purposes we have in mind.
    Mr. C. W. Gibson: I should like the Minister to tell us whether included in the definition of the words "and other requirements" would be included such things as youth clubs and social

    1409
    services about which in the past there has on occasion been considerable difficulties. If this change makes it easier for housing authorities where this need exists—and it does exist in all new town developments —to provide facilities of this kind, I think it is a good change, but I should like to be clear that is what it means.
    Mr. Macmillan Mr. Macmillan indicated assent.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 9.—(PROVISION FOR PARTICIPATION UNDER ORDER OF THE MINISTER.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 8, line 41, leave out from beginning to "he" in line 3, on page 9, and insert:
    If an authority eligible to participate wish to take some action which could lawfully be taken by that authority by agreement between them and the council of a receiving district (with the authorisation of the Minister under subsection (1) of the last preceding section or otherwise), and the Minister, on application being made to him by that authority, is satisfied that such action—

    (a) is required for the purposes of town development within the meaning of this Act, but

    (b) is prevented or hampered by inability or unwillingness of the council of the receiving district to concur in providing by agreement for its being taken,

    Mr. H. Macmillan: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is rather long, but in substance it is really only a matter of drafting. Its object is to simplify the wording of this Clause. In the debates we had both in Committee upstairs and on Report there was a good deal of difficulty as to the drafting of Clause 9. The purpose of this Amendment is to make clear, as was always indeed the intention, that. Orders under the Clause must relate to action which the participating authority could lawfully take by agreement with the council of the receiving district whether by an agreement under Clause 8 (1) of the Bill or with the authorisation of the Minister, or by an agreement which they could lawfully enter into under existing powers without the authorisation of the Minister.
    For instance, under Section 81 of the Housing Act, 1936, there are certain agreements which municipalities and local authorities can make without the authorisation of the Minister. For
    1410
    example, when they are building houses outside their area they can arrange to carry out incidental works by agreement with the local authority of the area in which the new houses are to be built.
    In its new form this Clause tidies up and meets the points raised both in Committee and on Report and puts it in better language to make clear that it only deals with two classes of things which local authorities can do, either things they can do under the Bill with the authorisation of the Minister or things which they can at present do under certain existing legislation without such authorisation.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 10.—(CONTRIBUTIONS TO AUTHORITIES PARTICIPATING FROM THE EXCHEQUER AND LOCAL AUTHORITIES BENEFITED.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 10, line 39, at end insert:
    A council, when giving an undertaking under this subsection, may lay down, as conditions to which payment of the contributions undertaken to be made is to be subject, such conditions as it may appear to that council to be expedient to impose for securing the intended relief from congestion or over-population.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is really consequential upon an Amendment which was made to Clause 4 on the Report stage. The Amendment to Clause 4 which now appears as Clause 4 (2) made it clear, if indeed it was necessary to make it clear, that a local authority contributing to the expenses of the council of a receiving district could attach to its payments conditions of the kind mentioned in that subsection. This Amendment in the same way empowers a local authority to attach conditions of the same character to contributions which it may make to the expenses of any other authority participating in the development.
    The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) had an Amendment on the Report stage which raised this point, but the actual words of that Amendment were not quite suitable. I undertook to look into the matter. I accepted the spirit of what he proposed, and I am grateful to him for having brought the matter before the House. These words carry out the undertaking which I then gave, and they

    1411
    have been inserted in another place to make clear in appropriate drafting what was the hon. Member's intention and what is my desire to accept.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 13.—(RE-TRANSFERS OF LAND, AND OTHER ADJUSTMENTS, AFTER CARRYING OUT OF TOWN DEVELOPMENT.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 12, line 40, leave out subsection (4) and insert:
    (4) An order made under this section shall be subject to special parliamentary procedure.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is a new point and it is one of some importance. The House may remember, and those hon. Members who were on the Committee will also particularly remember, that there was some discussion as to what should be the proper procedure when, perhaps many years hence, it comes to unwinding these arrangements and making the necessary Orders for distributing the assets and liabilities and making a fair settlement between the local authorities concerned. As we had first contemplated, it was to have been by an Order of the Minister, subject to an affirmative Resolution.
    But the local authorities felt—and I always try to give a good deal of weight to their collective wisdom—that perhaps it would be better to have what is called the special Parliamentary procedure to untangle what may be extremely complicated financial arrangements which will have to be dealt with, long after I have gone, in futures times when these schemes reach their completion. So this Clause empowers the Minister to make an Order subject to special Parliamentary procedure.
    In view of the feeling when this Amendment was moved in another place and accepted on all sides as probably the best in all circumstances, I hope that the House will agree that when it comes to the rather complicated disentangling of these financial responsibilities this is a procedure more generally acceptable and one which will relieve the Minister of the day of a difficult and perhaps complicated situation.
    Mr. G. Lindgren: I and my colleagues do not disagree in any
    1412
    shape or form with the general principle outlined by the Minister, but I am certain that the Minister will agree that perhaps the persons most affected by this are likely to be the local authorities concerned. It would be interesting, therefore, if he could let us know what, prior to this suggestion, was the reaction of the local authorities' associations.
    Mr. Macmillan: If I may, by leave of the House, answer the hon. Member, this has been really pressed upon me by the local authorities' associations. They all preferred it to the procedure contemplated in the original Bill.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 15.—(COMBINATION OF SEWAGE DISPOSAL OR SEWERAGE SYSTEMS.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 13, line 45, leave out subsection (2) and insert:
    (2) Where the Minister is of opinion that an order should be made

    (a) under section six of the Public Health Act, 1936, by virtue of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection, or

    (b) under section nine of that Act amending or revoking an order made as mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection, or

    (c) under paragraph (b) of the preceding subsection,

    he shall give notice of that opinion to all authorities appearing to him to be concerned, setting out a provisional draft of an order and stating a period, not less than twenty-eight days, within which objections may be made and if either no objection is made by any such authority within the time stated in the notice or all objections so made are withdrawn, the order may be made in the terms of the provisional draft, or with such modifications only as appear to the Minister to be immaterial; but an order shall not be made in any other case unless a draft of the order has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.
    10.15 p.m.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is a drafting Amendment consequential on the one which we have just carried. Having substituted the special Parliamentary procedure for the affirmative Resolution in Clause 13, unless we pass this Amendment it would leave subsection (2) of Clause 20 with nothing to apply to except orders under Clause 15.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 18.—(REPEAL OF S. 19 (5) OF TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING ACT, 1944.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 15, line 5, leave out Clause 18, and insert new Clause A (Repeal of restrictions on disposal of land by local authorities and development corporations).
    A.—So much of section nineteen of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, and of section five of the New Towns Act, 1946, as restrict the power of the Minister under those sections to consent to the disposal of land by a local authority or development corporation shall cease to have effect and, accordingly, the enactments specified in the Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in relation thereto in the third column of that Schedule.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Ernest Marples): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment does two things. First, it makes good a defect in the drafting of Clause 18 as it now stands. A technical defect in Clause 18 as it stands is that although it repeals Section 19 (5) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, it failed to repeal the re-enactment of the subsection of Section 44 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947 with consequential reprinting in the Eleventh Schedule in that Act, and this Amendment puts the matter beyond all doubt.
    Secondly, and perhaps more important to some hon. Members, it brings the Minister's powers as regards consent to disposal of land by new town development corporations into line with what is being done for the local authorities. The Minister can consent to the sale of land or a grant of a lease of land for a term of more than 99 years without having to find that there are exceptional circumstances justifying the adoption of this course in the case of the local authorities. This Amendment allows them to do precisely the same with regard to new towns which are being built, and by bringing the New Towns Act into line with the Town and Country Planning Act, the Bill will give the Minister the same discretion as regards disposals over the whole field of housing and planning legislation.
    1414
    There are four points. First, the Amendment makes the position uniform as between local authorities and new towns. There is no reason why the Minister should have different powers regarding new towns and local authorities. Secondly, I would remind the House that it is permissive and not mandatory. In certain cases, of course, a long leasehold or even a short leasehold is desirable, and in other cases the freehold will be desirable.
    Thirdly, the House on the whole has agreed that in these new towns there should be a balanced development, and if we are to have a balanced development it is necessary to have a varied population. Some people will want freehold and others will want leasehold. If a man wants to build his own house and have the freehold it is right that he should be encouraged to do so. So that we shall get the balanced population in the new towns which the House wants.
    Finally, it has been agreed by at least some hon. Members opposite that this is a very desirable principle, and I would like to quote from the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) on the Second Reading of this debate. He said:
    "There is one feature of the Bill of which, to be frank, I approve very much, and that is the extended power to sell land outright in the new towns and development towns, and on housing estates. I do not consider that we ought, where we can prevent it, to perpetuate all the evils of leasehold, and I see no reason why a local authority should be a leaseholder any more than a private person.
    I do not believe in the leasehold system. I believe in the freehold system, and when I was at the Ministry of Health I made my views known to the local authorities. I informed the local authorities on several occasions that where they wished to dispose of land freehold I would approve the sale. I did not agree with the argument that the maintenance of leasehold was necessary for good town and country development purposes.
    There are other powers which local authorities can exercise to see to it that property is properly looked after and that the buildings are in accordance with good town planning. It is not, in my view, essential to retain leasehold rights in order to bring that about. Therefore, I heartily support the proposal that the Town and Country Planning Act should be amended so as to give powers that I obtained from the House for housing purposes."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 952; Vol. 496, c. 762–763.]
    Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas: Do I understand that the Conservative Party now accepts that as a general principle?
    Mr. Marples: No, I was merely qnoting the views of the former Minister of Health, and while I do not always associate myself with the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, on this occasion I think that certain remarks at least have a germ of consistency with the principles of the Conservative Party.
    Therefore, the powerful and weighty argument of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale on this occasion shows that selling freehold is the answer; but the main argument which I advance is that if it is right for local authorities to sell freehold surely it must be right for the new towns to do so, because, ultimately, the new towns will be taken over by the local authorities. I hope that the House will accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Lindgren: I cannot give such enthusiastic support to this Amendment as does the Parliamentary Secretary. His case must be a little shaky when he calls in aid something which was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). So far as I and the vast majority of my colleagues are concerned there is a very great difference between a leasehold within private ownership and a leasehold within public ownership, as regards a person who wishes to undertake the use of a building or land for a particular purpose and for a specified period.
    I think it is equally true that this is dangerous in that development corporations may be in conflict with local authorities. There is no safeguard here, so far as I can see, in the case of a difference between a local authority and a development corporation. There may be a conflict instead of the agreement which the Parliamentary Secretary suggested was likely because the ultimate ownership of the land would go back to the local authority.
    So far as the local authority is concerned, the Minister has always had power to vary the general condition as to sale or lease. That is correct because of particular circumstances which might arise in regard to an industrial estate or a particular parcel of land and its particular use. The Parlamentary Secretary went further. He instanced, as what would be likely, the freehold ownership of the individual sites of houses within new towns. If that is so it certainly conflicts with
    1416
    the general conception of the new towns development.
    Part of the revenue arising to the development corporation is the ground rent from the lease of land, and that has a relationship to the expenditure incurred by the development corporation on the services and amenities associated with the land on which the development takes place. The Parliamentary Secretary did not explain how—if, in fact, this is allowable—the development corporation is to recoup to itself the value of the development which it undertakes both in making the site available for building and providing the general amenities in the district.
    While I am quite prepared to accept this new Clause in relation to local authorities, the suggestion of the Parliamentary Secretary seems to indicate that it is an encouragement to development corporations to undertake the extensive sale of freehold sites in regard to housing development. If that is so this is likely to be a much more dangerous Clause than it was under the previous drafting, when it was confined to local authorities.
    Mr. Gibson: I think the Parliamentary Secretary is a little too simple about this, if I may put it that way, for this is an important change. Under existing law, the Minister must be satisfied that there are exceptional circumstances before he can agree to the sale of freehold land or a lease of more than 99 years. This new proposal abolishes that provision, and the Minister could in future sanction such an operation without having to have regard to whether there were exceptional circumstances.
    That is a complete change and, as the Minister knows, there was a big fight in Committee about the principle involved. I do not want to detain the House, but I must make it clear that some hon. Members on this side of the House, at any rate, cannot support this Amendment.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: The speeches we have heard illustrate one of the characteristics of Her Majesty's Opposition during the Session which is now drawing to a close —namely, that they are more anxious to oppose the Measures brought forward by my right hon. Friends than to read them. There was no opposition during

    1417
    any stage to Clause 18 of the Bill, to which the Amendment relates.
    Mr. Lindgren: On a point of explanation. The hon. Gentleman will agree that the Amendment was withdrawn by him during the Report stage in order that we might facilitate business. There would have been considerable opposition to it and considerable discussion on it that evening.
    Mr. Powell: If I had been allowed to proceed a few words further, we might have saved time. I am referring to Clause 18 of the Bill, which has been unchanged and to which this Amendment makes an addition.
    It is important to be clear about what are the provisions of the Clause. They enable the freehold interest to be disposed of without the former limitations in the case of land acquired by a local authority in order to secure its development in accordance with the development plan. Any argument that can be advanced against the Amendment, on the ground that the planning objectives of a new town corporation are defeated by the sale of the freehold, would apply equally to the Clause which is under Amendment and to which no objection was made.
    Whereas in the case of land acquired for housing it might be that the plots to be disposed of were small and marginal, there was no such question in the case of land acquired by the local authority to secure its development in accordance with the development plan. The House has already agreed that land so acquired shall he freed from the limitations of the existing law. The only question is whether the almost consequential Amendment should be made of freeing land acquired for the same purpose by new town corporations.
    Obviously, in the new towns, the case, if anything, is stronger. I believe it is common ground on both sides of the House that these new towns will succeed only if they are replicas of whole communities. Unless the new town corporations can offer freehold sites for building and freehold houses for ownership, they will not be able to secure a true cross-section of the British community because, whether we like it or not—and I think most of us on both sides of the House
    1418
    do like it—there will always be a considerable proportion of people who will insist upon owning the freehold of their houses. The new town corporations will be unable to secure that unless we accept the Amendment.
    I think the fears of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) that the new town corporations would be the losers are groundless. They can, of course, dispose of the freehold at a price which will make appropriate allowance for the development to which the land has been subjected. I hope, therefore, that the House will assist the object of the new town corporations by making the Amendment.
    10.30 p.m.
    Mr. Lindgren: Is it not within the hon. Member's knowledge that in the two new towns which already exist—Letchworth and Welwyn—in which there is a very mixed community, the leasehold system is the system which has operated and which is agreed upon? The attraction to a town of a social strata of people has nothing whatever to do with the question of freehold or leasehold.
    Mr. Powell: I am sure that the hon. Member is also aware that there are other new towns where the inability to obtain or to sell a freehold has been a big obstacle to development.
    Mr. Lindgren: No, none whatever.
    Mr. Sparks: The new Clause proposed by the Minister undoubtedly creates a very different position from that which we were concerned with on the Report stage of the Bill, because it includes within it the repeal of part of Section 5 of the New Towns Act. The right hon. Gentleman is importing into the Bill something that ought not to be here. Town development is a quite different undertaking relatively to the development undertaken by the new town development corporations.
    What the right hon. Gentleman may not be aware of is the important fact that all the new towns are designated, and substantial sums of public money will be spent upon developing them. Therefore, in principle, it is right and proper that the freehold of the land should belong not to private individuals. It is obvious that with the expenditure

    1419
    of many hundreds of millions of pounds on the development of the new towns, a great value will be given to land within the designated areas.
    Why, therefore, should private persons reap the advantage of the appreciation of the value of land in an area as a result of the expenditure of large sums of public money? The New Towns Act was based upon the fundamental principle that if great sums of public money were to be spent upon developing a new town, the people in it should enjoy the enhanced value of the land that was created as a result of the expenditure of public funds.
    The Minister has the power to give consent in exceptional cases to the disposal by town development corporations of the freehold of certain parts of land within their areas, but he has to be satisfied that there are exceptional reasons for giving his consent. If now, he is to repeal that part of the Section of the Act and throw the door wide open, there is nothing to prevent him from giving wholesale consent to the sale of the freehold of very large pieces of land in the new towns, and the consequent alienation of the land from the community.
    It is nothing but hocus pocus for the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) to say that unless new town development corporations are permitted to sell the freehold to anybody who wants to buy it, there will not be a balanced cross-section of the community in the new town. The greatest objection to the leasehold principle is not leasehold as such, but the power of exploitation which too often arises from it when it is in private hands and is used for private speculative purposes. Some of the new towns are fairly well advanced. They have a number of factories and growing populations, but there has been no difficulty about factory owners purchasing land on a lease of 99 years or less.
    To come to the House and say that there will not be a balanced new town unless people are to be permitted to buy any freehold they might like in that new town is a dangerous principle for the Minister to enunciate. It would certainly be anti-social if the right hon. Gentleman were to embark upon it in any widespread sense. He has given us no indication at all, but from what we know of his policy
    1420
    and that of the Government, he will want to do that just that, and we consider such an action to be anti-social in view of the large sums of public money being spent on these new towns. If there is any appreciation in site values in a new town because of the spending of public funds then it should go to the community and not to a few private individuals.
    The Minister is wrong in injecting into this Bill a provision to repeal Section 5 of the New Towns Act. Left as it was there might be something to be said for it in connection with the Town and Country Planning Act, but it is a reactionary step in connection with the New Towns Act.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: The debate has raised an important issue, but I think there is a danger of exaggerating it. I am not altogether convinced, even by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), that leasehold is a bad system; but I am not altogether convinced that freehold is always right. I think that in this, as in many other matters, we have to proceed with a reasonably balanced and commonsense arrangement of what is best in particular cases. In bringing the arrangement into conformity with that which the House has agreed should be right for local authorities I am not asking for a general subversion of the procedure under which the new towns have hitherto operated.
    I inherited the new towns: they were a great inheritance, but were also rather a problem. I have, and hon. Gentlemen will agree, in my short tenure of office done everything possible to assist their development, and I am determined, as the House is determined, if it is humanly possible to do so, to make the experiment a success. There are a number of obstacles to be overcome. I do not suggest that we want very free sales of freehold plots, but we want the right to do it if it helps.
    Let us take the matter of industrial development. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Wellingborough knows that, even during the time of his Government as well as in mine, there are many obstacles against getting industries into the new towns. Questions whether they are necessary for exports or re-armament or of the highest priority have to be

    1421
    settled, and I have found industrialists are not prepared to take leasehold premises. If somebody can be got over one or two of these hurdles—such as capital investment, the Board of Trade requirements, and so on—and does not want to take leasehold, but wants freehold, then I want to be able to close with that if it should be necessary.
    Mr. Sparks: Would the right hon. Gentleman give some evidence of that, because my information is contrary to what he says.
    Mr. Macmillan: I want to be in a position to do that. I have had one or two such cases. The same thing applies in the case of local authorities. By selling a few freehold properties we would get that kind of development about which the Parliamentary Secretary spoke. If the chairman and management say, "We can get that kind of development if we could sell a few freehold properties," I want to be able to do it.
    I could strain my powers and say that these are exceptional circumstances, but I do not like doing that. I understand that my predecessors laid down that the only exceptional circumstances in which a sale could take place was to make a graveyard. I do not want to be tied to the graveyard principle. I want to make something which is more fruitful and constructive and looks to the future, at any rate on earth.
    This is not a dodge to bring in a political issue. I want this little freedom of manoeuvre, and that is all it is, because I would assure hon. Members that we have a difficult job to do. I would like this little bit of easement without straining my conscience by saying this was an exceptional circumstance. I hope, therefore, that the House will let us have this extension of our flexibility, and I can assure hon. Members it is in that spirit I intend to use it.
    Mr. Ede: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will go over the hurdles and not through them, because going through a hurdle is a most uncomfortable process for the person attempting it.
    Mr. Macmillan: And for the hurdle.
    Mr. Ede: In certain cases hurdles are all the better for being made a little less formidable.
    I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that we accept the spirit of what he has just said. We know his attitude to-towards general administrative problems and we can feel that the position is quite safe in his hands. But very often local authorities, and, I suppose, development corporations, are too ready to part with the powers that their possession of freehold give them with the continuous application of the idea with which the scheme was started.
    In the course of 41 years' experience of local government work I have known cases where freehold has been granted subject to restrictive covenants. But as time has passed the advantages given by the original scheme of development have been considerably altered. I hope that local authorities and development corporations, before seeking the permission of the right hon. Gentleman, will have regard to the possible consequences of their dealing with the freehold position, and that the right hon. Gentleman and his successors, in weighing up, not the exceptional circumstances, but the ordinary natural evolution of events, will have regard to the possibility of that kind of thing happening. In that way perhaps the right hon. Gentleman may consider, on occasions, that the hurdles are so formidable that he will never try to jump them nor go through them.
    10.45 p.m.
    Mr. Lindgren: If I might have the leave of the House, Mr. Speaker, I should like to press the Minister just a little more. As far as industry is concerned I am prepared to give him his case, because, if he searches the records of his Ministry, he will find that during the tenure of office of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) this did happen in one or two instances—at Widnes, for example, where certain exemption was given to the local authority in regard to a chemical industry which was coming there. But no case has been made out for domestic property.
    I must ask that this will not be used for domestic property. The whole ex-

    1423
    perience of both Welwyn and Letchworth has been that the power of control of development, control of amenities and the guarantee of there not being any abuse of existing amenity, has, in fact, been the attraction to a very large number of persons of what the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) would call the best people to the area.
    He can go to the industrial city quite near him. Birmingham is a first-class example of what should be, and what could be done. You have your back-to-back houses and your Edgbaston Estate which has been preserved against all the attempts of a large number of persons in that area to destroy it as an industrial area because of the leasehold system within the estate and the single ownership of the estate.
    In residential properties in the new towns, which, we feel, are perhaps some of the most important in regard to future development, single ownership and the right of control which comes from the leasehold system is most important. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) mentioned, if you once let go of the control which comes from ownership of the land and the lease, you can get the old scrap-yard up against someone else's good house. In the new towns we avoided all these mistakes of private enterprise in industrial and residential areas.
    I must press the right hon. Gentleman for a more effective assurance in regard to domestic property. We accept it for the industrial side, and we think there are one or two instances where it is likely to arise. If he can give us the assurance that this will not be used for domestic property, we are prepared to let him have the Clause.
    Mr. Macmillan: I must, out of sincerity, answer this point. I certainly cannot give that assurance. I hope and believe there will be occasions on which the sale of freehold properties for domestic use will be the right course. I can give no such assurance because it
    1424
    would be dishonourable for me to give an assurance that I could not carry out. I am a Tory; the hon. Gentleman is a Whig. He believes in the great rights of the Whig landlords. He is the Duke of Omnium. He believes that the landlord is always right. I believe that the poor little man has a right to property too. I stand unalterably as a Tory against the Whigs. There I stand, and if the hon. Gentleman must divide the House he must divide the House. I cannot give the assurance because I wish to see in these new towns a reasonable amount of freehold property to marry up with the other property.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman indicated that he would use the power exceptionally in the case of dwelling-houses. Could he give the House any indication of the principles or exceptions he has in mind for administering it in that way?
    Mr. Macmillan: I think they will vary according to the character of the new town. The people who went to Welwyn accepted that. On the other hand, the people in new towns who are already owners of leasehold did not, in many cases, want the new towns. There were compulsory purchases. They have a great sense of grievance, and I want them all working happily together building up the new towns which have come into their district against their will.
    As I say, it was quite different in Welwyn. That was the system. If people accepted it, they went there. I want to get as much balance and support in the new towns as I can. I cannot pledge myself—I would like to because the hon. Gentleman is always so kind to me—to do something I could not carry out. Therefore, the House must decide.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to

  MAGISTRATES' COURTS BILL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee; reported without Amendment; read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.

  MARINE AND AVIATION INSUR- ANCE (WAR RISKS) BILL
  Order read for consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  10.54 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Gurney Braithwaite): I beg to move,
  That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 10, page 9, lines 5, 7 and 8, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Lennox-Boyd.
  The Amendments which it is desired to make to Clause 10 widen the definition of war risks, and thus widen the Minister's power of insurance. As the Bill provides that any insurance liabilities may fall as a charge on Votes, these Amendments may conceivably have the effect of imposing a charge, and for this reason it is necessary to move that the Bill be recommitted in order that they can be considered.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill immediately considered in Committee.
  [Mr. HOPKIN MORRIS in the Chair]

  MARINE AND AVIATION INSUR- ANCE (WAR RISKS) BILL

    Clause 10.—(INTERPRETATION AND SAVINGS.)
    Mr. Braithwaite: I beg to move, in page 9, line 5, to leave out from "hostilities," to "rebellion," in line 6.
    Might I suggest that for the convenience of the Committee we should consider this and the two subsequent Amendments to this Clause? They hang together, and will result in a definition of "war risks" which will read as follows:
    "war risks' means risks arising from any of the following events, that is to say, hostilities, rebellion, revolution, and civil war, from civil strife consequent on the hapenning of any of those events, or from action taken (whether before or after the outbreak of any hostilities, rebellion, revolution, or civil war) for repelling an imagined attack or preventing or hindering the carrying out of any attack, and includes piracy".
    This group of Amendments springs from a review of this Clause following the discussions we had in Standing Committee and, as a result of that review, it has been concluded that certain risks which it might be desired to cover as
    1426
    war risks—in that they would be excluded from normal marine policies—might not have been covered by the original definition in the Bill. This Amendment is designed to remove any doubt. At the same time, opportunity has been taken to improve the wording of the Clause.
    If I may give an example of the risks referred to, one which might arise is that, say, of mines laid by a neutral country as a protection against future attack. There may be no hostilities and it might have been difficult, if not impossible, to argue, that any loss or damage from such mines to the ship fell within the original definition of "war risks" as set out in this Clause. These Amendments seek to cover this situation by referring to action taken for preventing or hindering the carrying out of any attack, whether such action is before or after the actual outbreak of any hostilities, rebellion, and so on.
    Action taken for repelling an imagined attack is now linked similarly with the other events referred to in the Clause. These Amendments will enable the Government to insure war risks in terms which will fit into the usual distribution of risks between war and ordinary marine risks in the world insurance markets. We feel that this covers arrangements which should be made, and I commend the Amendments for the approval of the Committee.
    Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I must confess that I am not altogether happy about this Clause, even as it will be if amended. Repeated suggestions were made in the Committee stage upstairs that much the simplest way of dealing with this matter would have been to put in the well-known words "warlike operations," even as an addition to "hostilities" or in place of that.
    What I would call the "Express" Clause has been put in. There was once a small ship called the "Express" sailing down the Channel on a very dark and stormy night and the captain, in good faith, rammed what he took to be a German submarine. Nobody knows to this day whether the object in question was a German submarine or a bit of wreckage. The net result of that difficulty and the litigation that ensued is that there is no need whatever to put in some of the words which are proposed to be inserted by this Amendment.

    1427
    I imagine that this addition is now being made because someone in the Ministry, with a logical mind, could not decide whether the action of the captain of the "Express" was
    "…repelling an imagined attack or preventing or hindering the carrying out of any attack."
    It is a very nice metaphysical point, but I am not sure that even yet the drafting has covered all possibilities. I say once more in all seriousness to the Parliamentary Secretary that I hope he will think again about "warlike operations." He talks about what are called war risks in the market and he will find that "the consequences of hostilities or warlike operations" is a very well-known phrase indeed. It appeared in the 1899 Charter and I think it occurred in the 1914–18 war and in the last war.
    11.0 p.m.
    The difficulty about this Clause, as it stands, is that it is full of characteristic British smugness. It provides for a case where somebody is attacking us, but makes no provision whatever for the case where we may be attacking somebody else. I do not want to go into the merits of the matter, especially at this hour of the night. It would take too long to discuss all the possibilities. But I suggest once more that, though I imagine no one will object to these Amendments, they still hardly go far enough and that it would be wise again to follow the usual wording of the Clause and to consider "warlike operations" as an alternative.
    I ask the Parliamentary Secretary this very serious question. Has he consulted such experts as the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers), who I am sorry not to see in his place, and is he quite sure whether he knows the moment of the
    "…outbreak of any hostilities, rebellion, revolution or civil war…"?
    There is very often discussion as to exactly when the trouble began.
    Mr. Braithwaite: Let me confess to the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) and to the Committee that there have been no consultations with my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers), but we have followed up the representations made by the hon. and learned Member in the
    1428
    Committee upstairs when he gave us his views on this matter and was extremely helpful in the discussions as a whole. He was unhappy then and it is a matter of regret to me that he is unhappy now. Following upon his speech and those of other hon. Members we sought the assistance, which was readily forthcoming, of the skilled and learned Law Officers who are at our disposal in these matters. They felt that this form of words was the most suitable, and far be it from me to depart from that excellent advice.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 7, leave out "or."
    In page 9, line 8, after "events." insert:
    "or from action taken (whether before or after the outbreak of any hostilities, rebellion, revolution or civil war) for repelling an imagined attack or preventing or hindering the carrying out of any attack."—[Mr. Braithwaite.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended (in the Standing Committee and on re-committal), considered.

    Clause 1.—(AGREEMENTS FOR REINSURANCE BY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT OF WAR RISKS IN RESPECT OF SHIPS, AIRCRAFT AND CARGOES.)
    11.5 p.m.
    Mr. Braithwaite: I beg to move, in page 1, line 9, to leave out from the beginning, to "any," and to insert:
    "whereby he undertakes the liability of reinsuring."
    I suggest that it would be for the convenience of the House if we discussed this and the remaining two Amendments together. This Clause relates to the reinsurance of ships, aircraft and cargoes, and this group, of Amendments arise from a review of the Clause, which was promised in Committee, in response to the Amendment there proposed by the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson). The Amendments are designed to make it clear, which was what the hon. Member sought in Committee, that under the powers conferred on him by Clause 1 the Minister can only enter into agreements whereby he—the Minister—undertakes

    1429
    the liability of re-insuring ships, aircraft, and cargoes. They will not enable him to off-load his liability on to other persons.
    The first two Amendments relate to the paragraphs dealing with, first, ships and aircraft, and, secondly, with cargoes. The third Amendment is a consequential Amendment of the proviso about foreign ships and aircraft. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North for drawing our attention to this point. I hope he will agree that any possible ambiguity will be removed by these Amendments.
    Mr. Kenneth Robinson: I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for conceding this small but not unimportant point, which I made in Committee. We had a slight difference of opinion there, when the Parliamentary Secretary thought that I did not understand the intention of the Clause and I thought that he did not understand the purpose of my Amendment. He has now found words which are at least as good as those I sought to move in Committee, and I think we are both agreed now that the intention of the Clause is crystal clear.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In page 1, line 12, leave out from beginning, to "any," and insert
    "whereby he undertakes the liability of reinsuring."
    In line 16, leave out from beginning, to "any," and insert
    "whereby he undertakes the liability of reinsuring."
    11.9 p.m.
    Mr. Braithwaite: I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    The purpose of the Bill has already been made clear in the preceding stages, but the House may wish me to review it very briefly. It is, in the main, a reenactment of those provisions of the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, which deal with the insurance of ships and cargoes, particularly against war risks. Its main object is to secure that insurance facilities shall be available in war-time so that, on threat of or during war or hostilities, ships and commerce will not be interrupted by lack of such facilities.
    1430
    The Bill deals with emergency circumstances and, as I said during the Second Reading debate, there is no intention of interfering in any way with the legitimate interests and activities of the insurance market in peacetime. Certain additional powers have been added in the Bill. The first is the power to cover aircraft and their cargoes in the same way as ships and their cargoes and is, I hope, self explanatory at this stage.
    The other is the power to insure goods in transit between ship and warehouse, or vice versa, at an overseas port as well as at a United Kingdom port, as provided in the 1939 Act. I do not think I need enlarge on these additions which I hope are acceptable to the House. The Bill also includes power to re-insure foreign ships and aircraft as well as to insure them. Foreign ships were covered during the last war through the medium of Defence Regulations, and it is now desired to incorporate these powers in permanent legislation. In this Bill my right hon. Friend seeks power to enter into arrangements with foreign countries in peace-time for re-insuring their ships in the event of war. These necessary arrangements can thus be made well in advance of any hostilities.
    Another power given by Defence Regulation, which again it is desired to incorporate in permanent legislation, relates to the issue of certificates instead of formal insurance policies. This is dealt with in Clause 7. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) expressed himself a little unhappy about this in Standing Committee, but it is surely highly desirable to facilitate Government insurance in war-time, and I repeat what I said on the Second Reading, that it does not result in any loss of revenue from stamp duties.
    Lastly, I think that I should refer to a further change which would result from the development of conditions under which hostilities now take place. General power is being taken to cover all kinds of war risks within the limits of Clause 10, and to select from them those which the Government must take to supplement the marine risk policy. The former differentiation which existed between Queen's Enemy risks and other war risks is no longer maintained. This change is made because we may in future become involved in hostilities, such as those

    1431
    in which we are now engaged in Korea, which might not technically be held to be a state of war at all.
    May I say that we are most grateful to hon. Members on both sides of the House for the speedy passage of this Bill through Standing Committee, and for the constructive criticism and suggestions for improvements which were made there? We did not feel able to accept all the Amendments suggested, but they led us to review the Bill so as to ensure that it may achieve the limited purposes assigned to it, and we have been prompted by those suggestions to put down further Amendments which have been considered at the Report stage, to which I shall refer briefly.
    I should first mention, however, the Amendment of the proviso in subsection (4) of Clause 5, which is designed to give the House that constitutional protection which is most desirable. I refer to the provision that where the Treasury certifies that it is inexpedient to lay the insurance accounts before Parliament the certificate shall be laid instead.
    The Committee also agreed Government Amendments to Clause 2, having the effect that the Minister's powers to insure ships, aircraft, cargoes and goods in transit in war-time against risks other than war risks would be exercised only when this was necessary or expedient in the interests of the defence of the realm or the efficient prosecution of the war.
    The Amendments which we have considered on Report, dealing with the reinsurance powers of the Minister and the definition of war risks will, I am sure, further improve the Bill. We are grateful to hon. Members opposite for drawing attention to the Clauses concerned.
    I am sure that the Bill has been improved during its passage through the House, and that we shall now be able to place on the Statute Book suitable provisions so as to ensure that the machinery of war risk insurance could be brought into operation without delay should that unfortunate necessity ever arise. The principles of the Bill were agreed at an unopposed Second Reading. We have had a successful passage in Committee in which I gladly recognise the assistance of hon. Members on both sides of the House, and I now commend the Bill to the favourable consideration
    1432
    of the House in the fervent hope, which I am confident will be shared in all quarters, that it will never be necessary for Her Majesty's Government to provide these facilities.
    11.15 p.m.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: The Parliamentary Secretary said that the purpose of the Bill had been made clear during its passage through the House, which is true, but what has not been made clear is why it is being introduced at this time. I and some of my hon. Friends said on Second Reading that we could not understand why priority was being given to the Bill, which facilitates re-insurance war risks.
    It seemed to us that the Government were losing their sense of proportion and had a mistaken idea of priorities. They are inconsistent in rushing through a Bill to permit this type of re-insurance in case of war, indicating that they fear that there is a danger of war in the not-distant future, when, at the same time, they are cutting our defence expenditure, as was made clear in today's debate.
    I agree that the Government have reason to congratulate themselves on getting the Bill with such comparative speed. It was introduced on 17th June and by today, 29th July, it will have gone through all its stages. The Government did not have to impose a Guillotine on this occasion.
    It is regrettable that the scope of the Bill was narrowed by the Government in Committee. The Bill was on the stocks when the last Government left office, and, as a result, hon. Members opposite were a little suspicious of it, and their suspicions were, unfortunately, confirmed when one of my hon. Friends suggested that it was a Socialist Measure. Apparently the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary then examined it with the greatest care and decided that they must clip its wings to prevent it from having any taint of Socialism. It was therefore narrowed in Committee and strictly confined to its original purpose of the insurance and re-insurance of British ships against war risks, both in peace and war, making provision also for foreign ships in war-time and for other matters.
    In Committee, entry into marine insurance was limited to cases in which it was

    1433
    necessary in the defence of the realm or for the successful prosecution of a war. This is typical of the Government's approach to Measures. They have adopted the attitude that Government action should be taken only when normal facilities are not available. The Bill leaves the situation rather vague and, in my view, in the hands of the insurance market. In effect it means that the insurance market will decide when they are unwilling to carry the risks and, because of the difficulties which will then arise, the Government will have to enter the market. It will be difficult for them not to do so if the market indicate that facilities are not available or that they are unwilling to cover the risks.
    This is typical of the outlook of the Government. They consider that it is right to leave private enterprise to take the profits when profits exist, and that the Government should relieve private enterprise of the obligations when they are unwilling to accept the risks. We had some discussion about this in Committee, when some of my hon. Friends and I pointed out that in our view the Government were in danger of being left with the poor risks while private enterprise would continue to carry the good risks. In other words, the Government would have the poor risks thrust upon them and would be in an unfavourable position by comparison with private enterprise.
    As the Parliamentary Secretary said, we did not divide against the Bill on Second Reading, and we propose to give it an unopposed passage tonight. We appreciate the very flattering remarks which the Parliamentary Secretary made about Members of the Committee and the proposals which they made, and we are also grateful that he gave careful consideration to suggestions and has seen fit to incorporate some of them in the Bill.
    The Bill, consequently, is a better Measure than when it left after Second Reading, but in our view it is still too limited and we cannot understand why it should be rushed through at this time. We say that because it seems that the prospect of any war in the future is such that it is very difficult to believe that normal insurance business could possibly be carried on. If, unfortunately, war should come, surely the situation will be that it will be essential for the
    1434
    Government to requisition all shipping and to operate it themselves, and that the insurance and reinsurance market, as we understand it, would not be in normal operation.
    Therefore we think, as I said on Second Reading, that instead of rushing the Bill through the House at this stage, when there seems to be no real essential reason why it should have been introduced—particularly when the Government, apparently, have a great deal of other business which they wish to get through the House—they should have paused awhile and reviewed the whole possibilities of insurance against war risks and damage from enemy action in the event of a further war and seen whether some slightly different approach was not necessary.
    However, the Government have decided otherwise, and all we can do in giving the Bill its Third Reading is to hope that our prophecies as to a future war will not be fulfilled and that the Bill will not have to be put into operation, and that it will be found quite unnecessary to have put it on the Statute Book.
    11.22 p.m.
    Mr. Mitchison: I do not want to keep the House for more than a minute or two, but there are two things I should like to say. The first is that I welcome the thin end of the wedge. I should be out of order on Third Reading if I suggested how much thicker it could usefully be. It is really only a legislative recognition of the fact that ordinary insurance facilities are quite insufficient, not merely in time of war but in the extensions of the time of war—the approaches to, and the finish of, the time of war—to which we have just been referring. I feel certain that as time goes on the business of marine insurance will be taken over more and more by the public—the Government of the day—as a matter both of convenience and of necessity.
    The second point is a quite short one. The Parliamentary Secretary will excuse me, after the very courteous interchanges we have been having, if I suggest that he is quite wrong in what he said about one Clause in the Bill and about what he supposed to be my own comments on it. I refer to Clause 7, which does not merely refer to certi-

    1435
    ficates but also refers to re-insurance treaties.
    I have no objection whatever to the Clause so far as the Minister is concerned, but I have the strongest objection to the fact that it does not extend to other insurance. The scandal is that re-insurance treaties at present are illegal, and it requires this Clause to make them legal in this particular case. Instead, the matter ought to have been considered as regards the insurance market generally, and not merely for this very narrow purpose. It might be found that considerable benefit would accrue to the Revenue by stamping instruments which cannot at present be legally stamped.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  SUPPLY DEPOT, BURGHFIELD (DISMISSAL)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Kaberry.]
  11.25 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Hurd: I wish to draw the attention of the House to the treatment which a constituent of mine, a Mr. John Chesterman, has received from the Ministry of Supply. The House has heard of Chesterman on several occasions since he was dismissed by the Ministry of Supply in December, 1947. This is, indeed, an extraordinary case of zeal in the public service leading to a man's downfall. Never has there been a breath of suspicion against the honesty, integrity or competence of Chesterman, with his record of 26 years' service in the Metropolitan Police, including a period of special service in this House, the award of the King's Medal for Gallantry and 6½ years' service in the Burghfield Ministry of Supply depot as a detective and patrolman.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Remnant) and I have many times, by Parliamentary Question, sought to probe the reasons why Chesterman was dismissed from his post at Burghfield. So far, we have had no satisfaction. On 6th December last I presented a Petition to this House signed by 2,100 neighbours and friends of Chesterman asking for a public inquiry to be held into the matters
  1436
  alleged to reflect on public administration at the Burghfield depot, and the circumstances in which Chesterman was dismissed. I hoped that this Petition, framed in moderate terms and so widely supported, would lead the Minister of Supply to decide that the public inquiry required an independent investigation. Unhappily, as the House knows, our public petition procedure leads nowhere beyond the green bag behind Mr. Speaker's Chair and the counting of the names on the petition by the Public Petitions Committee.
  However, the Minister has now had further time to study the papers in this case and I hope that tonight he will be able to respond in two ways. Firstly, by making a statement that will clear Chesterman's name beyond question, so that he can find another suitable post where his ability and probity can be of value to the community. Secondly, I want the Minister to agree that there are good reasons for an independent inquiry, even at this late date, into the circumstances of Chesterman's dismissal so that if he has been wronged he can be suitably compensated.
  I will put the facts briefly. After his exemplary 26 years' police service Chesterman was engaged at the Burgh-field depot to check pilfering and other forms of dishonesty and misconduct. Everyone agrees that the standard of honesty at Burghfield has been high, considering the many temptations which are bound to arise when there is valuable Government property lying around. For this high standard I think some credit can be given to Chesterman, having regard to the special duties on which he was engaged. It was, he tells me, his duty to investigate 150 cases of alleged larcenies in the factory and adjoining hostel. In many cases he worked closely with the local police. As my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General will know, and I am glad that he is in his place tonight, several cases were brought to the courts by the Director of Public Prosecutions. For this work Chesterman earned high praise.
  A month after his dismissal, that is, in January, 1948, the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Minstry of Supply, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) wrote to me:
  "It is recognised that Mr. Chesterman performed useful work and he was zealous and conscientious in the discharge of the special

  1437
  duties allotted to him at Burghfield…I am sorry that Mr. Chesterman had to leave our service, bearing in mind the good work which he has done for us."
  Why, then, did the Ministry of Supply get rid of him? The plain answer seems to be that Chesterman made himself a nuisance by doing his job too well. The Ministry first gave the reason for dismissal as redundancy, and then, when, in fact, further appointments were made, decided to say that Chesterman failed to obey his superior's orders and was guilty of indiscipline.
  What is the truth of the matter? There are two outstanding points that the House should know. In the course of his work Chesterman received anonymous letters. I suppose that a great many policemen and C.I.D. men do. He received one on 30th October, 1947, at his private address, alleging the theft of Ministry of Supply property including two refrigerators, and mentioning a senior official employed at the Ministry's Henley Depot. He reported this to the Superintendent of the Burgh-field depot and to a local C.I.D. officer.
  Here I should mention that Chesterman had, in March, 1945, been sworn in as a special constable to perform duties,
  "at the Ministry of Supply Depot, Burghfield, and within 15 miles thereof."
  Accordingly, he was accustomed, and, indeed, bound by his oath, to work with the local police. In this case the Burgh-field management refused the request of the police that Chesterman should co-operate in investigating the matter. Indeed, on 4th December Chesterman was instructed to return his warrant card and received a new card. By deleting the words
  "and within 15 miles thereof"
  his sphere of action was restricted to Burghfield depot itself. He could no longer pursue Ministry inquiries outside, even though Burghfield property was involved.
  The second fact to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is that Chesterman reported on 24th November to the fire patrol officer that a senior patrolman, after clocking in early on the previous Sunday morning, was away nearly all day until he clocked off in the evening. That was one of Chesterman's duties, to keep watch on the timing and attendance of the staff. Later that week Chesterman was instructed to work certain specified hours which excluded Sunday duty.
  1438
  I have spoken of the alteration to Chesterman's special constable's warrant. At the same time as he was told to hand in his warrant, on 4th December, he was instructed that in future he should wear the uniform of a fire patrolman, and this Chesterman saw meant working under the same official whom he had a few days before reported for being absent from his duties. He declined to accept this public snub, and, indeed, degradation. He was then given a fortnight's notice by the Superintendent of the Depot. He was not allowed to put his case, although he asked for a hearing as a member of a trade union. I do not understand why his trade union did not pursue this matter more thoroughly.
  Much more could be said on Chester-man's side of the case. The correspondence has been voluminous and the case has been put personally by my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham and myself, at the Ministry. The impression I have is that the headquarters of the Ministry of Supply have never been at all sure of their ground in this case. Twice the Ministry have offered to see whether Chesterman can be reinstated in a responsible post, but nothing came of these offers. No one, I think, who has followed this case can be happy about the actions of the Ministry of Supply. Indeed—one further incident—not content with dismissing Chesterman, they tried to get him out of the way altogether by asking his landlords, the Mid-Wessex Water Supply Company, to alter the tenancy of his house adjoining the depot during 1949. That was not very good behaviour on the part of a Government Department.
  I know this case well—in fact, too well. It will be in the public interest to have an independent assessment of the rights and wrongs of the case. Whatever the outcome of such an inquiry, it is bad for a Government Department to give the impression that it is above the law and need not answer for its actions. The Attorney-General must, I know, be concerned about this aspect of the case. Chester-man has suffered grievously in mental stress as well as in loss of income. He has a police pension, but his life savings of £1,250 have almost gone, and he has not had the benefit of unemployment insurance. He asks for an inquiry and is supported by neighbours and friends—

  1439
  2,100 of them—who signed a petition to this House.
  I am very anxious that justice should seem to be done and that we should not make Chesterman into another Inspector Syme. I therefore ask the Parliamentary Secretary, who, I know, has given close personal attention to this case, to tell the House that the request I make is granted for the sake of Chesterman and thousands of others who work at Ministry of Supply depots up and down the country and who are jealous that the good name of the branch of the public service in which they are employed should be upheld.
  11.37 p.m.
  Mr. Jack Jones: I intervene in this debate very briefly to tell the House what I myself did in regard to this particular case when I was privileged to be a junior Minister at the Ministry of Supply. I wish to assure the House and the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd), who has raised this matter in a courteous way and who informed me of his intention to speak tonight, that everything was done that was right and proper in the interest of Chesterman himself.
  There was I, a new junior Minister, straight from the orbit of trade union activity, who had spent 20 years of my life defending the rights of workmen. If an inquiry is to be held that is a matter for the Ministry to decide, but the officials of the Ministry would tell the hon. Member how zealous I was about cases of this sort being carefully sifted and properly examined before any decision was reached.
  I can assure the hon. Member and the House that I went into this case very carefully indeed, and was very anxious to see that justice was done. Here was the case of a person to whom the ordinary routine and discipline of the Ministry of Supply would have been applied in the ordinary way, who took exception to an instruction to carry out proper duties, and refused to carry them out. We had no alternative but to discharge him.
  I would put on record the valuable services of this man, but I was astonished to find that one whose duty it was to see that discipline was maintained himself failed to maintain that discipline. It was the refusal to carry out himself what he himself insisted upon being carried out by
  1440
  others that caused disciplinary action to be taken.
  11.40 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Remnant: I am glad that the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) has spoken and has raised the question of indiscipline, because, though that may be his view, I am able to discover no details of an alleged act of indiscipline. None has yet been made available to me or is known to Mr. Chesterman, unless it be the suggestion that Mr. Chesterman was asked or instructed to serve under an official whom he had reported. If that should be the instance of indiscipline alleged, then I consider it an extremely dangerous one to make and one which is quite unjustified.
  Mr. Jack Jones: If my memory serves me right, one of the acts of indiscipline was that Mr. Chesterman bluntly refused to be measured for the uniform which he was expected to wear in the carrying out of his duties.
  Mr. Remnant: Would the hon. Gentleman be prepared to go into a court and support that allegation, and back it as a reason for the dismissal of a man whose probity is otherwise proved? If so, though he is entitled to his opinion, his sense of justice differs very much from mine.
  Before the Minister replies, I want to go a little further into the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) about the wording and the handling of the warrant card. I do so only because I believe that particular instance is typical of many which justify Mr. Chesterman in believing that he has suffered a grave injustice.
  My hon. Friend has given the date on which the warrant card was issued and on which Mr. Chesterman was sworn in before the justices. That warrant card includes the words:
  "and within 15 miles of the depot."
  Those words had to be included on the card because they are part of the Special Constables Act, 1923, under which Mr. Chesterman was sworn in.
  I am suggesting that the Superintendent of the Burghfield depot was acting ultra vires in taking it upon himself to alter the wording of the warrant card which, although issued by the Superintendent, had been made out as it

  1441
  should have keen in accordance with the instructions contained in the Special Constables Act.
  In answer to a Question asked by me in the House on 7th July, 1950, the then Minister of Supply gave the reason for the inclusion of those words as being that they were due to the closing of a neighbouring depot and the desire that Chesterman's duties should be confined to the Burghfield depot, whereas, in fact, the neighbouring depot had been closed some four months previously and the covering letter which accompanied the issue of the new warrant card to Mr. Chesterman included no such reason at all. It said:
  "I am ensuring that there can be no claim that a warrant card issued over my signature"—
  that is, the Superintendent's signature—
  "entitles him to act in any Ministry of Supply matter within 15 miles. The new warrant card, signed by me, confirms only that he is empowered to act as a special constable in connection with Ministry of Supply matters in the depot whatever powers may have been conferred on him by the police."
  There is no question in that of his working at a neighbouring depot.
  I would remind the House that on receiving that letter Mr. Chesterman contacted the detective-sergeant who is used to making inquiries at Burghfield, as he was bound to do since the police pension which had been granted to him was contingent on his giving to the regular constabulary all the information and help that he could give. He was bound to do it, and I suggest that the officials at this Ministry depot, in declining to give him permission to help on constabulary work were stopping him, quite plainly, from doing his duty.
  I want to give the Parliamentary Secretary adequate time to reply, but I hope that, in the few minutes he has left he will not say that there is insufficient time for him to comment. I assume that he, at long last, is convinced that justice must not only be done, but must seem to be done, and must be seen to be done; that he must clear Mr. Chesterman's name of allegations made against him. I hope he will agree that there is a prima facie case for inquiry which will lead, also, to the clearing of the Ministry from the accusation that it has acted as judge and jury in refusing to accede to Mr. Chesterman's request.
  11.46 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. A. R. W. Low): My hon. Friend the Member for Woking-ham (Mr. Remnant) has just said that he hopes I shall have sufficient time to reply, but it so happens that every time I answer one of these debates I am left with less than 10 minutes for an answer which really requires at least a quarter of an hour. But I shall do my best to answer the points that have been put.
  As has been said, this is a quite extraordinary case of zeal in the public service; there is no quarrel about that, but I must quarrel with my hon. Friend when he says that it was that zeal which led to Mr. Chesterman's downfall. I must at once give an assurance that that is quite wrong.
  Before dealing with the facts I would, despite some of the rather harsh things which have been said tonight, pay a tribute to my hon. Friends for the equally remarkable zeal that they have shown for the last five years in pursuing this case. They have pursued successive Ministers and successive Parliamentary Secretaries, and it has taken them nearly five years before they have reached the Floor of this House; and I am here tonight to try to explain what happened nearly five years ago. I will, therefore, briefly summarise the facts, after adding that my hon. Friends have ensured that the Ministry should give the fullest consideration to the complaints and allegations made by Mr. Chesterman.
  Mr. Chesterman was appointed in the Ministry of Supply with the grade and pay of a patrolman to the Patrol Unit, which is maintained at each of the large storage depots of the Ministry, primarily to cover security. After his appointment, this Patrol Unit was merged with the Fire Brigade, and the members of it became known as fire patrolmen. But although Mr. Chesterman had been appointed as a patrolman, he was given the special task of watching in plain clothes for incidents of pilferage, and so on. This was an unusual procedure in a Ministry depot. There is no doubt that he was both zealous and conscientious. He brought to the notice of the Superintendent certain irregularities, which were dealt with.

  1443
  Late in 1947, the Director of Storage at the Ministry headquarters in London decided that Mr. Chesterman should undertake the normal duties of a fire patrolman and that he should wear the appropriate uniform. In other words, his plain clothes duties were to cease, and the special task given to him earlier no longer applied. This decision was taken because the activities at the depot and the number of people having access to the depot had decreased considerably.
  The position was fully explained to Mr. Chesterman and he was offered employment in the normal Fire Patrol Force. He was not prepared to accept this. He would not consent to wear uniform. In those circumstances, the Superintendent of the depot gave him a fortnight's notice on termination of employment, nominally because he was redundant. A full discussion took place with the officials of his trade union, who made representations on his behalf.
  The house, about which I was asked, belongs to the Ministry of Supply and the Water Board collect the rent. Perhaps that will clear up one point made in this debate.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) asked me to do two things. First, to make a statement that will clear Mr. Chesterman's name beyond question; and second, to agree that there are good reasons for an independent inquiry, even at this late date. I will do the first, but for the reasons that I shall give I cannot do the second.
  My hon. Friends raised the personal side of the case and the public interest side of the case and I will try to answer them under those two heads. First, on the personal side, I cannot see that any question of wrongful dismissal arises. Mr. Chesterman was a temporary employee of the Ministry. In the circumstances which I have outlined the Superintendent decided to terminate his employment and gave him two weeks' notice. One month after his dismissal the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply wrote to my hon. Friend, and the words my hon. Friend has quoted are surely signs that the Ministry did not wish to do anything to interfere with Mr. Chesterman's prospects of further employment.
  1444
  At no time since Mr. Chesterman left the Ministry of Supply service have the Ministry of Supply been asked for a reference. If they had they would have given one very much in the terms of the letter written by the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones), the former Parliamentary Secretary. I should like to confirm tonight what he said then. Mr. Chesterman left the Ministry of Supply service without a stain on his character. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury, in the early part of his speech, said as much. It seems to me that he really left because he was unwilling to accept conditions of service laid down for him. I repeat that we have never refused a reference. We have never given one, because we have never been asked for one.
  I believe that what Mr. Chesterman really wants is to be re-instated at Burgh-field. That we cannot arrange. Mr. Chesterman, during these last five years, has made a number of allegations against the Superintendent at Burghfield and has created such an atmosphere between himself and the staff there that we could not contemplate re-employing him there. The same does not apply to other Ministry of Supply establishments, though I must be fair, and say that it is only very rarely that vacancies of a type suitable to Mr. Chesterman will arise. But if Mr. Chesterman applies for employment in one of these establishments, other than Burghfield, we will certainly consider him along with others. There will be no special preference and there will certainly be no discrimination against him.
  I now turn to the public interest side of this matter. Broadly speaking, there are two separate issues—the warrant issue and the issue about the various reports made by Mr. Chesterman. The card issued is only a so-called warrant. It is not a proper warrant with any legal validity at all. It is an identity card designed and drawn up by the Superintendent of the depot. Mr. Chesterman had been appointed a special constable to exercise the duties of special constable at the Burghfield depot. When he was sworn in before two justices, under Section 3 of the Act of 1923, the oath was as stated by my hon. Friend.
  Nothing that the Superintendent did affected this oath. It is important to remember that this is not a general

  1445
  appointment of special constable, but a limited one. Mr. Chesterman remained in the employ of the Department and under the orders, of course, of the Superintendent of the depot, who at once issued him with a so-called warrant card identifying him; and this card originally referred to duty at Burghfield depot only. I think that the circumstances in which it was altered have been explained. Those circumstances related to the opening of the depot at Theale, in the sense that it was brought under the administration of Burghfield, and the closing down of the Theale depot. There is no mystery or "hanky panky" about it. It was absolutely clear and was all explained to Mr. Chesterman.
  1446
  Finally, I can assure the House that all the reports made by Mr. Chesterman have been examined and that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury knows, some of these matters were looked into by an experienced Chief Inspector of the Metropolitan Police, C.I.D., in 1950. In those circumstances, I ask the House to accept from me that these things have been examined fully both by myself and others.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Five Minutes to Twelve o'Clock.

BRITISH ARMY
  Reserve Officers (Retired Pay)
  Reserve Officers (Retired Pay)
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Order, South Africa (Delivery Conditions)
  Order, South Africa (Delivery Conditions)
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  Hire-Purchase and Credit Sale Agreements Order
  Trading Estate Factories (Employment)
  Trading Estate Factories (Employment)
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  Cotton Yarn and Cloth (Import Licences and Quotas)
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  Sewerage Scheme, Howey
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Defence Works, Rowhedge
  Defence Works, Rowhedge
  House, Westmorland (Requisitioning)
  House, Westmorland (Requisitioning)
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  Shop Licences, Uxbridge
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  Hall, Pencoed (Storage)
  Union House, London (Derequisitioning)
  Union House, London (Derequisitioning)
  Coronation Procession (Members and Wives' Facilities)
  Coronation Procession (Members and Wives' Facilities)
  Derequisitioned Hotel, Mayfair (Contents)
  Derequisitioned Hotel, Mayfair (Contents)
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  Builder, Lindfield (Certificate)
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  Official Car Service
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  Liftmen (Working Conditions)
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  Cow Hides (Warble Fly)
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  Milk (Subsidy)
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  ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (DISABILITIES)
  EUROPEAN SETTLEMENT KENYA
  EUROPEAN SETTLEMENT KENYA
  TELEPHONE KIOSK, HEBRON
  TELEPHONE KIOSK, HEBRON
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
  WEST HARTLEPOOL EXTENSION BILL
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  THEFTS FROM NATIONAL MARITIME MUSEUM
  2.36 p.m.
  EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are yet in a position to make any statement with regard to the latest theft from the Imperial Maritime Museum at Greenwich; whether the number of the staff was strengthened after the theft of the Nelson Relics; and whether any further additions are contemplated as a result of the latest incident.]
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, between 11.50 a.m. and 2.30 p.m. on July 15, a gold casket presented to Admiral Vernon by the City of London was stolen from a glass case in the medal room of the National Maritime Museum The box has been recovered by the police and I understand that charges are being preferred. After the previous thefts referred to by the noble Earl, which took place at night, measures were taken which included, as I informed the noble Earl on November 20, 1951, the grant of authority to the Trustees to increase the warding staff in order to relieve the night patrols of responsibility for manning the telephone switchboard.
  Unfortunately, it proved to be impracticable to arrange for the Museum warding staff, who had been engaged for and employed on daytime duties only, to undertake night duty; and it was therefore
  380
  necessary to explore other possibilities with the Ministry of Works, by whom the night staff are employed. I am glad to say that arrangements have now been agreed among the parties concerned for strengthening the night patrols and training that staff in telephone work. Details of the latest proposals have not yet been before the Trustees, but I believe they will be found satisfactory. The night arrangements, however, have no immediate bearing on the most recent theft, which took place in the daytime. Inquiries into that matter are continuing. A number of factors affected the situation and it would be unwise, in the meantime, in any way to anticipate the outcome of the inquiries
  EARL HOWE: My Lords, as this is the third important theft of valuable relics which has taken place from this Museum, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he can give an assurance that steps will definitely be taken which will preclude further losses in this direction, and that no further reduction of staff will be made—in fact that, if it should turn out that additional staff are required, such addition will be made in order to safeguard these valuable relics?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot give—indeed, I think nobody, not even an insurance company could give—an assurance that no theft will ever take place anywhere at any time. But I am sure that every possible step has been taken. There is no question at all of a reduction of staff. So far as I understand it, the presumption is rather in the other direction.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, this is rather a disturbing matter. I very much hope that there will be some thorough and complete investigation, so that the noble Viscount may be able to assure the House that every step humanly possible is being taken to see that this deplorable state of affairs comes to an end.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I have already given an assurance to the House that the fullest inquiries are being made. I cannot possibly tell the House what the results of these inquiries are until they have taken place.
  EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that the trustees of the Maritime Museum wrote to the Treasury on January 28, informing them that the cuts then proposed were such

  381
  that they could not hold themselves responsible for the safety of exhibits in that Museum from then on?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: No, my Lords, I have not been instructed about this. I am sorry, but it is not my Department and therefore I do not know all the correspondence which has taken place. But I am informed that the question of cutting staff in museums had no effect upon the security arrangements.
  LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, does the noble Viscount remember that in the first act of The Importance of Being Earnest it is suggested that while the loss of one parent may be a misfortune, to lose two seems like carelessness?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, there are other aphorisms from the same author which no doubt could be applied, but I am not quite sure that I see the relevance of this one.
  LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, does the noble Viscount say that there is no ground for anxiety about this reduction of staffs and, if so, does he draw that opinion from the trustees and directors of the National Collections?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I did not say that there is no ground for anxiety about reduction of staff. The question about reduction of staff was generally directed to whether certain rooms in certain museums should be closed. The information which I am given here is that that was not relevant to the security arrangements in this particular museum.
  LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I do not know whether it is relevant to this particular Museum, but I suggest that the Government should inform themselves of the views of the directors and trustees of Our National Collections on this question of security. I fancy that it is not entirely a matter of merely closing rooms. I believe that this reduction of staff is causing anxiety.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I do not think it would be relevant for me, in replying to a specific inquiry about a specific theft at a particular Museum, to open the general question of closing rooms in museums. What I did say to the House—I cannot speak with first-hand knowledge of this—was that in this
  382
  particular case, so far as the investigations disclosed, the reduction of staff did not affect the security provisions.
  LORD FARINGDON: I beg the noble Viscount's pardon. I thought he made a general reference to all museums.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I never argue from the particular to the general, and seldom from the general to the particular.

  KIDNAPPING OF GERMANS
  2.44 p.m.
  LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as a measure of humanity, they will consider proposing to their Allies that any negotiations with the Soviet Government on the subject of Germany should be deferred until the Soviet Government have effected the release of all Germans kidnapped from West Berlin or the Western Zone.]
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): No, my Lords. We are not prepared to act upon this suggestion. In the wider interests of the German people we are desirous of entering into discussions with the Soviet Government on the lines indicated in our Note of the 10th July. If we were to wait before doing so until the Soviet Government had taken the measures of humanity in their Zone of Germany which we should wish to see taken, the prospects of entering into any such discussions would be very remote. Strong protests against these kidnappings have, however, been made, and at the request of the German Federal Government and the German authorities in Berlin precautionary measures have been increased.
  LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I naturally expected to receive that answer, but I thought that there might be just a faint off-chance for the humanitarian angle, seeing that our chances of a sensible agreement with the Russians about Germany are, in any case, very slender—though I suppose only an independent can say so.

  HUMANE RABBIT TRAP
  2.46 p.m.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows.
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can make a statement about the efficiency of the improved model of the humane rabbit trap, and how it compares with the gin-trap.]
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, I am glad to say that further tests in England and Wales have confirmed the usefulness of the new Sawyer trap and that it looks as if it will meet the requirements of efficient and humane catching of rabbits. We are therefore proposing, through the Ministry's contract service, to bring this new trap into use under everyday conditions. This will require a substantial replacement by the Sawyer trap of the gin-traps at present used for this service. I understand that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will arrange at the same time for thorough trials of the new trap in Scotland. Meanwhile, arrangements for manufacture on a commercial scale are proceeding. I think it will be agreed that this marks an important stage in the very desirable substitution of a humane trap for the gin-trap.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, which will give the utmost satisfaction to all who have been aware for a long time of the atrocious cruelty of the gin-trap. May I also congratulate the noble Lord and his Department on the long and patient effort which has led up to this successful discovery of a substitute for the gin-trap? I should like, if I may, to put to him three further questions. First, can he give any idea of the comparative costs of the humane and the gin-trap? Second, can he say how soon the humane trap will be available in quantities for purchase in shops? And, finally, can he say whether it is possible to arrange for a specimen of the humane trap to be placed on the premises of the Palace of Westminster for inspection by Members of either House of Parliament?
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said. As regards cost, these new traps have not yet been put into production, so it is rather difficult to say exactly what the cost will be. However, we hope that it will be comparable to that of the gin-trap. With regard to the availability of the trap, we are, as I say, replacing our traps with these new Sawyers, which we hope to have finished by Christmas. There will be a few on sale before then, but not until after Christmas will there be any quantity on sale in the shops. I will see what I can do about the noble Earl's last question, whether we can have someone demonstrating a trap here for your Lordships' benefit.
  LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, in agreeing with the noble Earl that this news will be most welcome, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, if, when this trap is in production, he will be in a position to welcome the reintroduction of a Bill to abolish the gin-trap?
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think my noble friend is setting a trap for me. I was asked whether or not I could make a statement about the efficiency of the humane rabbit trap—and nothing more. We had better wait and see how the new trap gets along under the conditions we are imposing upon it in working for our new contract service before we think about legislation.

  DUNDEE HARBOUR AND TAY FERRIES (ORDER) CONFIRMA TION BILL
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
  CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS (AMENDMENT) BILL
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  LANCASTER PALATINE COURT (No. 2) BILL
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  ABERDEEN EXTENSION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  AGRICULTURE ACT (PART I) EXTENSION OF PERIOD ORDER, 1952
  2.51 p.m.
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved. Section 4 of the Agriculture Act of 1947 gives power to make administrative arrangements necessary to carry out the policy of guaranteed prices and assured markets where there is no existing arrangement which could be used for this purpose or where the existing arrangements are inadequate or unsuitable. One of the important safeguards against misuse of these wide powers was that three years after the passing of the Act it would be necessary to extend these powers by Affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. The only arrangements at present in force under the section are those contained in the British Wool (Guaranteed Prices) Order, 1951, which was approved on the 26th April of that year. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Agriculture Act (Part I) Extension of Period Order, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to

  AGRICULTURAL LIME SCHEMES (EXTENSION OF PERIOD) ORDER, 1952
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved. The Agricultural Lime Scheme which has been in operation since 1937 enables a subsidy to be paid to farmers for about half their expenditure in acquiring and transporting lime. The Agriculture Act of 1947 extended the scheme until August 1, 1952, and made provision for a further extension to August 1, 1954, which is what the Order before your Lordships proposes. Liming the land is the basis of soil fertility. Consumption had increased by 1950 to over 6,000,000 tons annually, and although there was a marked falling off in 1951, with the
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  renewal of farming confidence there has been something of a revival of liming this spring. I hope your Lordships will agree that this lime subsidy is one of the best of the agricultural subsidies, and it has stood the test of time. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Agricultural Lime Schemes (Extension of Period) Order, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  PLOUGHING GRANTS SCHEME, 1952
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, this is the first scheme to be made under the Agriculture Ploughing Act, 1952, which passed through your Lordships' House a short time ago It gives effect to the original announcement made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture on February 4 last, that a grant of £5 an acre would be paid on four-year grassland ploughed up last spring and sown to approved crops. The scheme covers England and Wales. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Ploughing Grants Scheme, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  AGRICULTURE (PLOUGHING GRANTS) (SCOTLAND) SCHEME, 1952
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, this is the equivalent scheme for Scotland. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Agriculture (Ploughing Grants) (Scotland) Scheme, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  CIVIL LIST BILL
  2.54 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty to signify to the House that Her

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  Majesty, having been informed of the subject matter of the Civil List Bill so far as it relates to the Duchy of Cornwall, recommends it to the consideration of the House. In accordance with precedent, I beg to move formally that this Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, on behalf of noble Lords who sit on this side of the House, I should like to associate myself with the course the noble Marquess proposes to take.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches, I also desire to associate myself with the proposal of the noble Marquess.
  On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
  Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 17), Bill read 3a, and passed.

  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Fortescue.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
  Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 17), Bill read 3a, and passed.

  PRISON BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the consideration of a Commons Amendment read.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Home, I beg to move that the Commons Amendment be now considered.
  Moved, That the Commons Amendment be now considered.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  [The reference is to Bill (122) as first printed for the House of Commons]
  Clause 55, page 25, line 3, leave out ("August") and insert ("October")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  INTESTATES' ESTATES BILL
  2.57 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, twice this month already I have been rash enough to weary your Lordships with two Private Members' Bills of quite unusual dullness and technicality. To-day, for the third time in the month, I much regret that I am doing the same thing—but with one slight difference: this Bill, the Intestates' Estates Bill, to which I shall ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading, is nearly twice as long as the other two Bills put together. I myself am also labouring under the disadvantage that I am to be followed in this debate by several noble Lords who have a profound knowledge of this difficult and technical subject whereas, unfortunately, my knowledge could be put into a nutshell, while still leaving ample room for the nut. The general purpose of this Bill can however be stated in a very few words. What the sponsors of the Bill are seeking to do is to provide more generously for the widow and the dependants of a man who has died wholly or partially intestate. I use the word "widow" advisedly, though inaccurately, because throughout the whole of this Bill the same principles apply to the widower as apply to the widow. I use the word "widow" only in order to avoid having to use throughout the course of my remarks the distressing expression "surviving spouse."
  It may be asked at once: Are there enough people concerned in this matter to make it worth while bringing forward Private Members' legislation? Are there sufficient people who die intestate to

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  make it worth while thus occupying Parliament's time? The inquiries that I have been able to make produce a remarkable result. Of the number of people who die leaving anything that can be considered an estate—by which I mean anything over a few pounds—nearly 40 per cent. die intestate; that is, either having not made a will at all or having made a will which is partially bad. The reasons for that are various. One is, of course, that these people may never have bothered to make a will; or they may have been taken by surprise. The will may have been lost. Another good but unexpected reason is that many people think that the State under the present law makes a very good will for them—and hitherto it has indeed done so. And the other reason, which may be the most common, is the frequency with which a man makes a will for himself and makes such a nonsense of it that the law cannot enforce it. It is often thought that a statue should be erected in Lincoln's Inn to the man who first invented the sixpenny will form. I am reminded of the old toast:
  "When a festive occasion your spirit unbends
  You should never forget the profession's best friends,
  So we'll send round the wine and a bright bumper fill
  To the jolly testator who makes his own will."
  In order not to appear too cynical, I must say that by far the worst home-made will I ever set eyes on in my life was made by a High Court Judge.
  I have said enough, I think, to show that there are a large number of people involved in this matter. I think I had now better outline briefly what is the present state of the law. That is contained in Sections 46 to 49 of the Administration of Estates Act, 1925, and these clauses were drafted by the late Sir Benjamin Cherry. This is how the law stands at the moment. The spouse is entitled to all the personal chattels of the deceased, excluding those used for business, and up to £1,000, free of death duties, with interest at 5 per cent. If, in addition to the spouse, the deceased leaves children or remoter descendants, the spouse takes a life interest in half the remainder of the estate, while the other half goes immediately to such issue. Upon the death of the spouse the first half also passes to the issue. If the
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  deceased leaves no issue, the surviving spouse takes a life interest in the whole of the remainder of the estate and upon his or her death this passes to the intestate's next of kin in order of priority. Then follows a table of a complexity and confusion equal only to that in the Table of Affinity in the Prayer Book, concluding with certain nefarious characters which could have stepped only from the pages of Saki or P. G. Wodehouse—namely, "aunts of the half-blood." I never met a case of a man being disinherited by a half-blooded aunt, but presumably Sir Benjamin Cherry did not want to take any risks!
  That was the 1925 property legislation—Lord Birkenhead's great Property Acts, which have now become almost sacrosanct. One feels a certain timidity in attempting to amend them at this date. They have, of course, not always had that air of sacrosanctity. I remember once being shown, by the head of my chambers, some papers from a West Country solicitor containing the instructions: "Counsel is requested to settle these documents without reference to the 1925 property legislation, for which we have little use in this part of Cornwall." Sir Benjamin Cherry, when he drafted these clauses, was acting largely on guesswork, and experience has proved that he guessed pretty accurately, and gauged very nearly what were the needs of the public of the day. But since his day the value of money has changed enormously; the value of house property and the cost of repairs have changed enormously; and there has been, in the last few years, a feeling that the law as it now stands is not in keeping with public opinion and is not working justly.
  Some few years ago there were a number of Questions in Parliament. The Trades Union Congress took a look at the subject; the Law Society also started to make investigations. Finally, the Lord Chancellor of the day—the noble and learned Viscount (as he then was), Lord Jowitt, appointed a Committee to look into the whole question That, if I may be allowed to say so, was an extremely sensible thing to do. But Lord Jowitt went one better: he appointed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton of Henryton, to preside over the Committee. This was not only a very wise thing to do: it was a very fashionable thing to do, because nowadays if a Government

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  finds itself faced with a difficult social and political problem the correct solution is to appoint a Committee and to see that Lord Morton of Henryton is the Chairman. Then it can be sure of a quick, sympathetic and practical answer to the problem. That is what we had in this case. The Committee first sat in October, 1950, and in June, 1951, they produced the Report of the Committee on the Law of Intestates' Succession, which is before your Lordships at the moment. It is, if I may say so, with great respect, an admirable Report, and we owe a great debt to Lord Morton of Henryton and to the Committee themselves, including the noble Lord, Lord Kershaw, who is to speak later in this debate.
  The essence of this Committee's Report is embodied in this Bill. What this Bill tries to do is to provide a will for the testator who has not made a will. The Committee looked at the matter in the light of present circumstances and said to themselves, "If this man had made a will, what sort of will would he have made?" Then they tried to make it for him. I am not going into further details as to the factors which governed their decisions because I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton of Henryton, would like to give his view to your Lordships; but that is the method in which, as it appears to me, the Committee brought forward their proposals. The Bill has already been through another place where certain of its provisions were discussed in full; others not so fully.
  Now, perhaps, I had better briefly ask your Lordships to consider the main points of the Bill. Clauses 1 and 2 provide that when a person dies intestate, leaving a spouse and issue, the spouse should take £5,000 free of death duties, with interest at 4 per cent. per annum, and in addition, as at present, a life interest in one-half of the remainder of the estate, with the right, which is not given at present, to claim a lump sum representing its capital value in lieu of the life interest. If there is no issue the Bill proposes that the surviving spouse should take £20,000, free of duties. In addition, if there are parents, brothers or sisters of the deceased the surviving spouse is to take one-half of the rest of the estate; and, if there are none, the
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  spouse is to take the whole estate. Where there are parents, brothers or sisters, they should take half the residue of the estate. For the benefit of noble Lords who are now feeling a little giddy, these details are given in the explanatory memorandum to my Bill.
  There has been criticism of the figures of £5,000 and £20,000. But I can tell your Lordships that the figures were not chosen at random; they were chosen after examination of fairly complicated statistics and based on wide inquiries. Similarly with the rate of interest, which is now reduced from 5 per cent. to 4 per cent. That again is more in keeping with modern financial conditions. It has also been proposed that the sum should not be set as a figure at all, but as a percentage of the estate. That proposal, I think, was brought forward by the right honourable and learned Member for South Kensington, who speaks with great authority. But, with respect, I feel that the contrary view should prevail, that certainty is better than a mathematical calculation. If any of your Lordships should think that these provisions may wreak hardship on any members of the family, I can only defend them by saying that elsewhere in the Bill we attempt to make some provision for those who feel that they have been hardly done by.
  There are two other small points in this clause to which I feel I should draw your Lordships' attention. We are making provision for the widow to redeem her life interest, if she so wishes, for a lump sum. That has always been possible in the past if the personal representatives so agreed; but now we are giving the widow the right to claim it. I think that is more in keeping with modern ideas, and it has the practical, administrative advantage of not leaving a multitude of small life estates lying around. The other point to which I think I should draw your Lordships' attention is this question of two people dying together. Section 184 of the Law of Property Act provides that
  "In such circumstances, the younger is deemed to have survived the elder."
  For the purposes of intestacy only, we are proposing that the younger spouse shall be deemed not to have survived the elder so, if either dies intestate, his or her estate will be distributed on the footing that there is no surviving spouse. If

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  your Lordships work out this jig-saw puzzle, you will realise that the whole purpose of the provisions of this Bill would be defeated if that were not done.
  Clause 3 of the Bill deals with the question of the partial intestacy—that is, where some of the will is good and some is bad. The general purpose of this clause is to provide that, if the widow takes any sum on a partial intestacy, that sum must be taken into consideration when the statutory sum—that is, either the £5,000 or the £20,000—comes to be paid. I think your Lordships will agree that that is obviously fair. Clause 4 sets out the Act of 1925, as amended by the provisions of this Bill. Clause 5 and the Second Schedule are important. They give the widow the right to ask that the matrimonial home shall be set-off and appropriated to her. The personal representatives have always been able to do that, if they so wished. We are now turning that right into an obligation, because I think it stands to reason that most men want to provide for the widow being able to continue living in what has been the matrimonial home. That is what the Morton Committee said.
  Unfortunately, great difficulty arose in working out the machinery for this provision and, in the first place, this was not included in the Bill. But the Law Society have now come forward with a suggestion that Section 41 of the Administration of Estates Act, 1925, provides a possible solution: the power of appropriation granted to the personal representatives in that section might be the solution. All the other solutions put forward would inevitably have resulted in litigation of some sort. This clause is not perfect, and I shall be the first to admit it; but I think we have now hit upon a solution. I hope that your Lordships, if you can improve ii, will not hesitate to do so at a later stage. I am certain, however, that the principle is sound. Certainly statistics bear out that the vast majority of men in these circumstances would desire their widows to continue living in the matrimonial home. Of course, there are circumstances of hardship which one can readily envisage—for instance, where a man marries for the second time, late in life, and the children who have lived for many years in the family house see the house going to the second wife for whom they have
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  little or no affection. But we cannot legislate for everyone, and I think the legislation in this clause covers the large majority of cases.
  Clause 6 is a perfectly horrible clause. I am going to ask your Lordships if you will be good enough to allow me at a later stage to withdraw it. It crept in at the later stage of the Bill in another place and, with the greatest respect to those who sponsored it, I do not feel it had quite the consideration it deserved. What it is suggesting is that the same principle with regard to the house should be extended towards the family business—that is, that the widow should have the right to demand that the personal representatives hand over to her her husband's business. I do not suggest for one moment that some women are not just as capable of running businesses as their husbands. One can think of many examples: Mrs. Proudie, for instance, who was certainly just as capable of running the Bishopric of Barchester as was the Bishop himself; and, no doubt, Mrs. Beeton, of the Cookery Book, had circumstances so dictated, would have managed to edit the Boys' Own Paper and act as clerk of the course at Epsom just as well as Mr. Beeton did, but that is not the sort of thing we want to put into an Act of Parliament. That is quite a different matter. Giving the widow the right to demand that the business be appropriated to her seems to me quite wrong. It would give rise to endless complications. I am sorry that this clause has found its way into this Bill. The machinery which the pro-poser has put forward, which is "cribbed" directly from the previous clause about the matrimonial home, quite frankly will not work. Therefore, I would ask your Lordships, as I say, to allow me at a later stage to withdraw Clause 6.
  Clause 7 is purely interpretive. Clause 8 and the Fourth Schedule extend to an intestacy the provisions of the Inheritance (Family Provision) Act, 1938. Your Lordships will remember that that Act enables certain dependants to go to the court and ask for relief when a testator has not made a reasonable provision for them in his will. It is a very narrow and confined Act. It is restricted to a small class of people. The conditions in which applications can be made are strict. The Act came in for a good deal of criti-

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  cism in 1937 and 1938 when it was before the House as a Private Member's Bill. Indeed, I believe certain of the Chancery Judges pointed out several serious flaws in it but, thanks to the Lord Chancellor of the day the noble Lord, Lord Maugham (whom I am happy to see in his place this afternoon) the Cabinet were prevailed upon to accept what was admittedly an imperfect Bill but was, socially and politically, a desirable Bill.
  I speak from some slight personal experience and I think it is a good Act. I believe it has relieved much hardship. Over 2,000 cases have been before the courts since 1938 and I should have thought that that was proof enough that there was need for some such Act as the 1938 Act. Flaws there have been, and judges have pointed out many discrepancies and many anomalies, but we feel that it is a sufficiently useful Act to extend it to the provisions of the Intestates' Estates Bill. We therefore provide in this clause that, where hardship is thought to have been occasioned, application may, in roughly similar circumstances, be made to the court. We also take the opportunity to correct various minor ambiguities in the 1938 Act and make certain small amendments to it.
  Clause 9 is the 1938 Act, as amended by my Bill. Clause 10 is the short title and the date. The date at which this Bill is designed to come into operation is January 1 next year. That date was chosen when we hoped that this Bill would receive the Royal Assent by the end of July, but at the moment that is clearly not possible. I am wondering whether your Lordships may not consider it necessary to postpone the operation of this Act. That is for consideration, perhaps, at a later date.
  I apologise for having omitted a large number of details. I have entirely ignored the vexed question of relatives of the half-blood. I have made no mention of the fact, so far, that this Bill does not apply to Scotland; it applies only to England and Wales. I know little enough about English law and even less about Scottish law, but I am told (and I see the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, straining at the leash, or whatever it is that Scottish Peers do when they wish to have a crack at English Peers) that English law is twenty-five years in advance of Scottish law in this matter and superior in all
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  respects. This Bill has had the great assistance of the draftsmen and I believe it is now in a tolerably workmanlike condition. I think it will do good. I believe it will fulfil a much needed public want, and I think it is uncontroversial. I believe it has the support of Her Majesty's Government and I very much hope that I have said enough to ensure that it has the support also of your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  3.21 p.m.
  LORD MORTON OF HENRYTON: My Lords, as I was the Chairman of the Committee which sat on the Law of Intestate Succession, it is perhaps appropriate that I should explain to your Lordships the reasons which led the Committee to make some of the recommendations contained in this Bill; and I am glad to see Lord Kershaw here, for if I should go wrong at any point he will be able to correct me. May I say, before I come to the proposals made by the Committee, that I entirely share the feelings of Lord Mancroft as to Clause 6 of the Bill, which provides for giving the widow—and I use the word "widow" as he did, for convenience—the option of purchasing the intestate's business? As the noble Lord has intimated that he wishes to withdraw that clause, however, I shall refrain from any further criticism upon it.
  May I first turn to the provision which increases the wife's legacy from £1,000 to £5,000? That is, of course, a very striking increase but I think we have five reasons for it; and I can state them shortly. First, there is the great change between 1925 and the present day in what the pound will buy; and there has been a great change in the value of house property. The result is that the wife's £1,000 is quite inadequate to enable her to buy the matrimonial home, should she so desire, and, as happens in many cases to-day, the home has to be sold, against the will of the widow, in order to provide for the shares in the estate which are taken by the intestate's children. Secondly, we had many suggestions for this sum of £5,000 from those who sent us memoranda and evidence, and one of the bodies which suggested it was the Law Society. Now, of course, the solicitors' profession has every opportunity of

  397
  gaining an intimate knowledge of the difficulties which arise when a man dies intestate. We thought that was a strong reason for deciding on that figure.
  The next reason is this. We obtained, as Lord Mancroft has said, certain statistics from the Probate Registry, and they revealed very striking facts. We found that in the case of testators who left estates of £2,000 and under, 73 per cent. gave the whole of their estate, or substantially the whole of it, to the widow; and in the case of testators whose estates ranged from £2,000 to £15,000, 65 per cent. took the same course. The object of the law of intestacy is to try to make for the intestate the sort of will he himself would have made if he had been a sensible man and had taken the trouble to get down to his desk. I think the figures I have quoted are of great importance. Lastly, we were impressed by the necessity for simplicity in the administration of small estates. If you have a life interest in a small sum that necessitates trustees, possibly accountants, and certainly the assistance of the legal profession: and while I am reluctant to withdraw any work from a most deserving body I think the benefit to beneficiaries in small estates will be very great if this provision becomes law.
  There is one objection to this provision which has been made quite strongly in another place—and it is this. It is said that in the case of an estate of under £5,000 the children will get nothing. It is said that still worse is the position if the children are children of the first marriage and the surviving widow is the second wife. I think there are three possible answers to that suggestion. First, in the case of the mother of the children I think that most men show a tendency to trust their wives to do what is right for the children: if they wish to make a special provision to the contrary they will probably make a will. The second is that, even in the case of the stepmother, I think the number of "wicked step-mothers" is smaller to-day than I might have been led to believe from recollections of fairy stories which I read in my youth. I believe that there are few step-mothers who would live on the bounty of the intestate and allow their step-children to starve. But even for that, I hope, rare case there is some provision in this Bill, for, as your Lordships will have heard, the Bill seeks to apply to cases of
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  intestacy the provisions of the Inheritance (Family Provisions) Act, 1938. The result is that, if the stepchildren do not get adequate maintenance as the result of the intestacy, under the law of intestacy they are enabled to apply to the court for reasonable provision to be made for them. There is a provision which limits that right in the case of children of the surviving spouse, but the limitation does not apply in the case of stepchildren of the surviving spouse.
  May I come shortly to the £20,000 which it is suggested the widow should get in the event of there being no children surviving the deceased but only the widow and, possibly, other relatives? I confess frankly that the figure of £20,000 is a compromise. There were many persons who sent in memoranda and there were several members of the Committee—I think it is not improper to say that—who felt that there was a great deal to be said for giving the whole estate to the widow if there were no children. But there were other members of the Committee who felt that that was not entirely fair, especially in the case where the estate was a substantial one. They felt that the intestate in that event would have wished to make some provision for his brothers and sisters, or for his parents, if they survived him. But the Committee were all agreed on this: that the first care of every man ought to be to make provision for his widow, and the figure of £20,000 was agreed upon because it was thought that that would make reasonable, ample provision for the widow and, in any event, should prevent her being in real want. The balance of the estate, according to the Bill, will be divided equally between the widow, on the one hand, and the parents of the intestate, should they survive him, on the other. If the parents do not survive the intestate then the widow shares equally with the brothers and sisters of the whole blood of the intestate.
  Now I come to another criticism of the Bill which was made in another place, and which was repeated to me more than once. It is suggested that the Bill cuts out or leaves out brothers and sisters of the half-blood of the deceased and that many a man has a very real affection for his half-brothers and half-sisters and would desire to make some provision for them. I entirely agree with the second proposal but I would point

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  out two things. First, the Bill does not Cut out brothers and sisters of the half-blood. If there is no widow surviving and no children surviving, the brothers and sisters of the half-blood come in exactly where they do to-day, immediately after the brothers and sisters of the whole blood, which seems, I suggest, not an inappropriate position. It is only when the widow survives under the will that the brothers and sisters of half-blood do not take in competition with the widow. I apprehend that there are some testators who would prefer children who are brothers and sisters of the half-blood. There may be other testators who would share the estate between the widow and the brothers and sisters of the half-blood. I realise that there is room for difference of opinion. But the Committee thought that probably the majority of men, if they made a will and if there were no parents, children or brothers and sisters of the whole blood, would prefer to give the whole estate to the widow; and so the Bill provides.
  The third point is as to the option given to the widow to acquire the matrimonial home. On that I need say very little. There was a general demand among those who submitted memoranda to the Committee for such provision. It seemed to us that it was a provision which was really wanted and which will work justice if the Bill is approved. The widow will get either her £5,000 or £20,000, as the case may be, and probably she will have enough funds to acquire the matrimonial home. As I have said, I share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, on Clause 6. That is the only part of the Bill which I cannot at the moment honestly commend to your Lordships. With that one exception, I venture to think that this is a good Bill, and I hope that your Lordships will accord to it a Second Reading.
  3.33 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I rise to occupy the attention of your Lordships for two or three minutes only. This is not a subject with which I pretend to be familiar. This Bill is certainly no easy measure to read; indeed the Table of Affinities seems to me to be child's play compared with it. But I rise because when I was Lord Chancellor this matter was brought to my attention by the Law
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  Society, who indicated that in their view the present system was working harshly. I thought they had made out their case—a case for inquiry, as Lord Mancroft said—and I was extremely fortunate in getting the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Henryton, to act as the chairman of that Committee. With great celerity he induced all the members of that Committee to agree, and in about six months or so they had produced a unanimous, and, I think I may say, a very valuable Report indeed. I should like to express my appreciation of the work which Lord Morton of Henryton did. I did assist him, as I think he will agree, by giving him a powerful Committee—my noble friend Lord Kershaw was one of the members. This is, therefore, a matter which comes to us with great authority.
  When the Report came out I read it, and I must say it seemed to me to be completely convincing. When I read this Bill I was appalled to find how difficult it was. But if I am right in understanding that in substance, apart from Clause 6, it merely reproduces the recommendations of the Morton Committee—well, the Morton Committee's Report is easy to read, and I shall go through the Bill in the hope that I shall find in it substantially what is there. So far as the members of my Party here and myself are concerned, we shall most certainly support the Motion for a Second Reading of the Bill. But I should like to say this. This is a Private Member's Bill and, as so often happens with a Private Member's Bill, it does not come to us until the very end of the Session. Of course, if Private Members' Bills are not passed in the Session, they lapse. I wonder sometimes—I dare say that the noble Marquess the Leader of the House has looked into this matter—whether it is really necessary that Private Members' Bills should lapse at the end of the Session.
  I am not expressing an opinion, but it may be that if there were a rule that they could, at any rate, be carried over, then the House would find itself in this position—it could discuss them at much greater leisure and with much greater care. We never obstruct in this House, and we do not waste time. I think, if we are to do our job properly, we do want ample time to consider Bills of this kind. It is very important in connection with Bills of this sort that this House

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  should be able to exercise its revising powers—that is in Bills in respect of which there is no political controversy at all, and which we simply want to put into as good and satisfactory shape as possible. To do that we have a great number of noble Lords who have technical knowledge to apply to the task, and though their time is often otherwise occupied, yet there are occasions when they can come here. But it does demand time. I am not making any complaint; I am merely throwing out the suggestion that it might be well to consider whether a new scheme could be devised, a scheme which has not been devised hitherto, whereby Private Members' Bilk need not lapse at the end of the Session, if the Government thought it proper and wanted to save any Bill. I do not want to impose an unpleasant legacy.
  My suggestion is simply designed to ensure that Bills which the Government might desire to be so dealt with should go over to the next Session in order that this House might have greater leisure to go through them. In saying this, as I have indicated, I have in mind particularly Bills of a non-controversial type like this one. Whether we are going to pass this Bill through all stages very promptly, I do not know, but having regard to what Lord Morton has told us—that in substance this Bill merely reproduces what the Committee stated—I certainly should not raise any objection if we were asked to do that, so long as the Lord Chancellor takes the same view as Lord Morton and is able to tell us that this Bill merely reproduces the subject matter of the Report.
  My Lords, I rose merely to say those few words and to add that, so far as I know, this Bill certainly merits support. I think that Lord Morton made out a very strong case, both in his Report and in his speech, for the £5,000 provision and for the £20,000 provision. I understand the provision about half-brothers and sisters and the option to acquire the matrimonial home. I gather that Clause 6 does not find favour with the noble Lord, or, indeed, with the noble Lord, Lord Kershaw, either. For myself, I do not pretend to have understood the intricacies of the drafting of Clause 6. That is all I wish to say. I think this Bill should undoubtedly receive a Second Reading.

  COMMONWEALTH ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
  3.38 p.m.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I should like to ask leave of the House to interrupt the business on this Bill in order to make what I am sure noble Lords will agree is an important statement, which is also being made in another place by my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister.
  Some little time ago my right honourable friend the Prime Minister communicated to the other Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth a proposal that they should meet in London in the latter part of November to review together the pressing issues of financial, commercial and economic policy with which our several Governments are faced, some of which have been the subject of continuous examination since the Finance Ministers' Meeting in January of this year. It was our hope that, out of such discussions, we could work towards a constructive approach to the economic problems which beset the world.
  I am glad to be able to inform the House that the other Commonwealth Prime Ministers have agreed that such a meeting will be timely and useful and that it will open in the last week of November. The Prime Minister of South Africa has said that while he himself would unfortunately have special difficulty in attending the Conference at the time proposed, his country will be represented. The Prime Minister of India will be unable to attend at the time proposed, but the Government of India have agreed to make appropriate arrangements for India's participation. All other Commonwealth Prime Ministers, including the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia, hope to be present themselves for the whole or part of the Conference. Arrangements will also be made for the representation of the Colonial territories. The Conference will be preceded by preparatory discussions between officials of Commonwealth countries. I shall give the House further information on the subject in due course. I am afraid I can add nothing more to-day.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I should like to say only that I think the news which the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, has given the House is eminently satisfactory.

  INTESTATES' ESTATES BILL
  3.40 p.m.
  Debate on Second Reading resumed.
  VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I have spent a great part of my life in connection with matters of the sort dealt with in the present Bill and I cannot plead that I am quite ignorant about this subject. I have been greatly interested in the Bill, and I have considered the observations in support of the Bill that have been made with great force, both by my noble and learned friend who was Chairman of the Committee which considered the subject and by other noble Lords. I should like to say that I entirely approve the Bill, with, for the moment, a doubt about Clause 6. I believe that the Bill will remove a good deal of injustice which occasionally occurs when people of comparatively small means die intestate.
  3.41 p.m.
  LORD KERSHAW: My Lords, the first duty I feel I ought to perform is to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for dealing with a very intricate subject in a manner which has been intelligible to the layman. This is one of the few Bills that I have read through from beginning to end and I expected that to-day we should have had what I may call a "field day" for lawyers, as we had the other day on the Defamation Bill. As a layman I feel that I am in the same position as was my noble friend Lord Burden then, but not having his audacity I approach my side of the business to-day with a considerable amount of trepidation, not lightened by the fact that the Bill is a complicated one, as other noble Lords have said.
  It may be pertinent to remind your Lordships of the hopes of the Committee which sat on this matter. In reading the Report of the Committee yesterday, I found the following two passages which may interest your Lordships in relation to the need for a clear Bill. In paragraph 31, the Report says:
  "The law should remain as simple and intelligible to the layman as possible."
  I call your Lordships' attention to the word "remain." I take it that the inference to be drawn from that is that the subject is already intelligible to the layman. Again, in paragraph 12, referring
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  to certain proposals which had been made to the Committee, the Report says these proposals would
  "add complications to the law of intestacy, a law in which brevity and simplicity are particularly desirable."
  Whether the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has achieved this simplicity in the Bill before us it is perhaps not for me to say. My main concern in this is a layman's concern for a matter which has been dealt with both by the mover, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton of Henryton. Here I should like, as one who has had experience of many Committees, to express my admiration and thanks to the noble and learned Lord for the way in which he directed us and educated us as we went through this intricate subject. I commend what I think is not a customary method—that is, the reproduction of the whole of Sections 46 to 49 of the Act of 1925 in the Schedule of this Bill. That should be a great help to anyone approaching this subject in future. Again I must commend the novel method—at least it was not recommended by the Committee—by which the value of a matrimonial home is to be computed. I think it is a most ingenious and very fair method, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and his advisers for their work on that difficult point.
  I am most concerned with the simple question of what the widow will get on the death of her husband. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton of Henryton, has already told us of the vast proportion of estates which are willed to the wife of the person concerned. Yesterday, I went through the probate register of a large pension fund in which I am interested, and I am sure your Lordships will appreciate that with the growth of pension funds, which has been phenomenal during the last few years, more and more people are being affected by the present £1,000 limit. On going through this register, I found what I considered to be a rather startling position. The people I am concerned with are ordinary working-class folk, and I found that out of ninety-five deaths in the current register, eighty-three were intestate, so that the need for some clear and sensible disposition of an intestate's estate is manifest. In most of these cases a statutory trust had to be created for a relatively small amount, as generally the estate exceeded

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  the £1,000 limit by a few hundred pounds. In one case, which at this moment is under consideration, the whole estate is worth something like £1,300. The widow gets her £1,000 and for the rest a trust has to be created for an infant child of three years of age.
  The difficulty is not so much that a trust has to be created, but that the widow resents this. She feels the inference to be drawn from it is that she is not to be trusted to look after her child. The raising of the £1,000 limit to £5,000 would enable small estates to be cleared up and the widow to buy the house in which she lives, and the effect of this increase will be very great in cases of people with small means. Like the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and other noble Lords who have spoken to-day, I have considerable difficulty in justifying Clause 6 and the Third Schedule to the Bill. However, as I understand that the matter is to be dealt with in Committee, I need say no more now. I have said all that I want to say, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton, dealt fully with the provisions of the Act, as also did the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. I will only add that I am delighted that, as a result of our work on the Committee, we shall have on the Statute Book a measure which will implement what we recommended.
  3.50 p.m.
  LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I shall in due course, to the best of my ability, try to do my duty by the Bill which my noble friend Lord Mancroft has introduced. However, my reason for speaking to-day is that experience has shown me that whenever there is an English Bill—especially one with which English people are pleased—it is nearly always to be followed in due course by a similar Bill for Scotland. I have been told that that may be the case in this instance. The fact that there is a Report on the subject gives point to my fears. The Report to which I refer itself indicates that the matters contained in it are highly controversial—and, in my view, they are even more so than the Report indicates. This is something which has nothing to do with the economic effort, with rearmament, or with Tory principles. I suggest to Her Majesty's Government that if they seek to introduce a similar Bill for Scotland they will be asking for controversy in a matter
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  which would otherwise lie quiet. A Report which starts by suggesting that we should imitate France, which goes on to suggest that we should imitate Germany, and finally—to gratify the vanity of my noble friend Lord Mancroft—comes to the conclusion that we had better imitate England, is not likely to avoid controversy.
  In that connection, I should like to remind your Lordships of the wise words uttered in your Lordships' House only yesterday by my noble and learned friend Lord Normand. He said: (OFFICIAL REPORT; Vol. 178, Col. 319):
  "I am sure it is fallacious to think that you can argue from what has happened in Scotland to what may happen in England. In answer to one noble Lord who has spoken, I should like to say that there can be no greater fallacy than to look round England and Scotland and find what parts of the law have worked well in either country and then to try and make an amalgam with both. The one certain way of ruining two good systems of law would be to try and make a patchwork out of those parts of the law which have worked well in Scotland and those which have worked well in England. I know that there are many parts of the law of England which have worked well enough here which would be most unacceptable to the people of Scotland, and I am quite prepared to believe that there may be parts of the law of Scotland which have worked well enough there but which would be unacceptable to the people of England. After all, laws are made for people, and it is important that we should remember that, when we are discussing a matter which may touch the intimate life of members of the public …"
  I could not improve upon those words and, if anything, Lord Mancroft's remarks upon the law of Scotland reinforce them.
  I should like to say this, because it occurs in the English and the Scottish Reports. I venture humbly to differ from my noble and learned friend Lord Morton in regard to Scotland, in saying that the object of the law of intestacy is to try to make a will for a man who has not made one in the same terms he would have been likely to do. I say that especially with reference to a country where half the heritable property, though held by its owners on title as absolute as it is in England, is still consciously held by them as a kind of family trust. I cannot—I would not if I could—threaten the Government that unless they meet me I will upset the economic effort, or whatever it is, but I do say that I shall feel it my duty to oppose to the utmost of my power

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  a measure which carries out in full the terms of the Scottish Report. There are many points in the Scottish Report with which I agree, but I shall to the utmost of my power, like Tiberius on an equally important occasion instans voce et voltu. I hope, however, that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will be able to reassure me. If he cannot, I should like to ask that I be heard before the matter is definitely proceeded with.
  So far as the English law is concerned, I hope that during the passage of the Bill may have one provision in your law of intestacy expained to me. If a man dies, and has nephews, I understand that in English law they are considered to be his relatives. But if he is cursed with longevity, survives his nephews and has only grand-nephews, I understand that these are no relation, and that the Crown are ultimus hæres. I have never understood that provision. I do not know whether that actually comes into this Bill, but I hope that during the discussion on the Bill I shall have it explained to me.
  LORD CALVERLEY: Before the noble Lord sits down, will he tell us whether he has been explaining the law of Scotland, which we are not discussing to-day, or the Bill which is before us, which applies only to England? Has he been crossing his bridges before they have been built?
  LORD SALTOUN: I have been taking a very good Second Reading point. I have been asking the Government whether they propose to introduce a similar measure for Scotland, and I have been explaining what I believe to be the position with regard to it.
  3.59 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): My Lords, perhaps I might answer the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, before I come to the subject of the Bill which is before the House. I think I can best answer him in this way. In another place my noble friend the Secretary of State for Scotland was asked the question:
  "… whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the introduction of legislation to amend the law of succession in Scotland?"
  My right honourable friend replied:
  "I regret that I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this subject."
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  I do not think the noble Lord will expect me to say more than that. Obviously can give no further assurance on the matter and it is a question which my right honourable friend will have to consider in due course.
  With regard to the Bill which is before the House to-day, I join with those noble Lords who have spoken in commending it to the House for Second Reading. I propose to say very little, but I must not sit down without on behalf of Her Majesty's Government thanking the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton of Henryton, and his colleagues, for the Report which they have presented. In a way I am sorry that it did not fall to my noble and learned predecessor, who had the foresight to appoint this Committee, to thank them, but from other points of view I am not so sorry. At any rate, I ask the House to join me in thanking the noble and learned Lord. Surely our gratitude is also due to the noble Lord, Lord Man-croft, who has undertaken the task of introducing this Bill in your Lordships' House.
  Having said that, I feel that I need say little more. This is a Bill which in almost every respect follows the recommendations laid down by Lord Morton's Committee. That that Committee was unanimous, consisting as it did not only of lawyers but also of laymen, shows that the recommendations represent not only the logic of lawyers but also the life of the people. It has been said, "Law is life, not logic." I venture to think that your Lordships may have received much assistance from the speech which my noble friend—I think he is almost a learned friend on this subject—Lord Kershaw made, because he was able to tell your Lordships not what the law should be, but what the layman thinks about it.
  There is one exception I must make, and all your Lordships who have spoken have made the same exception. Clause 6 has crept into this Bill without any recommendation from Lord Morton's Committee and, I think, without any serious support from anybody. It is a clause which I am quite sure will not work. I have considered it as carefully as I have been able to, and I hope that when the matter comes before your Lordships in Committee it will be deleted as a blemish upon an otherwise admirable Bill. There may be details in Committee which are

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  capable of amendment. It would be strange if there are not. But, generally speaking, I commend the Bill to your Lordships as an admirable attempt to remedy a state of affairs for which, as popular opinion has shown, a remedy is needed. With those brief words, I venture to commend the Bill to your Lordships.
  On Question, Bill read 2a; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  COCKFIGHTING BILL
  4.2 p.m.
  An Amendment reported (according to Order).
  Clause 1:
  Possession of domestic fowl and appliances for use in fighting rendered unlawful
  1.—(1) If any person has in his possession—

  (a) any domestic fowl prepared for use in fighting;

  (b) any instrument or appliance designed or adapted for use in connection with the fighting of any domestic fowl,

  he shall, if the court be satisfied that he had it in his possession for the purpose of using it or permitting it to be used as aforesaid, be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to a fine not exceeding twenty-five pounds, or to both such imprisonment and such fine.
  (3) For the purpose of this section a domestic fowl shall not be deemed to be prepared for use in fighting by reason only that it has been subjected to all or any of the following operations, that is to say—

  (a) the removal of its comb or wattle,

  (b) the cutting or clipping of its wings or wing feathers.

  LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved to omit paragraph (a) of subsection (1). The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that on the Committee stage of this Bill, as on the Second Reading, some comment was made in regard to the drafting of the latter part of Clause 1. In the Committee stage it was led by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, and I said a few words in support of the point he then made. The point was that the Bill as at present drafted—without the Amendment standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, on the Paper—does not give any idea to a bench of magistrates sitting to hear one of these
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  cases what is a domestic fowl "prepared for use in fighting"—or, indeed, what has happened to it. I put down this Amendment (and the two subsequent Amendments standing in my name are consequential to it) to delete entirely from the Bill Clause 1 (1) (a), and to leave it that a man can be prosecuted if he has in his possession
  "any instrument or appliance designed or adapted for use in connection with the fighting of any domestic fowl."
  I have never kept cockfighting fowls, nor have I ever been to a cockfight. I must say that I am extremely ignorant of this subject, except that I understand that a cockfight always takes place with artificial spurs added to the fowl. I should have thought that Clause 1 (1) (b) was sufficient for the purpose which the promoters of this Bill have in mind.
  It would perhaps be convenient if, at this moment, I said a word about the Amendment which has been put down the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, which obviously is an alternative course to the one proposed by my Amendments, and is certainly better than the provision at present in the Bill. If one looks at the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, one finds that it says:
  "For the purposes of this section a domestic fowl shall not be deemed to be prepared for use in fighting unless it has been subjected to all or any of the following operations"—
  "any," of course, being the important word in that context—that is to say, it has had its tail feathers cut or clipped, or has had its spurs removed. In my submission, the effect of that provision is this. Any person who cuts the spurs off a domestic fowl is putting himself or herself into the category of a person suspected of keeping those fowls for cockfighting purposes. In a way, that is absurd, because the only cases of which I know where spurs have been taken off cocks is to prevent them doing damage to one another in a small run by fighting. Except for those few people in this country who, I am told, still take part in cockfighting, the normal person takes these spurs off cocks or cockerels to prevent them fighting when they are kept in a fairly confined space. If that is to be done in future, it will put those people into the category of suspects, not of humanity but of inhumanity. That would be one of the results of adopting the

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  Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr.
  There are also reasons why, if the tail of a domestic fowl is too long and drags itself in the mud, it is quite proper to clip it off. But if you do that after this Bill passes into law—if it does pass into law with this Amendment—it will perhaps be thought that you have done it in order to equip the fowl for cockfighting. Therefore, I suggest that we should look rather carefully at this matter before we pass it into law. After all, we are creating a new criminal offence, and we should be careful what we do. I do not overlook the point, of course, that those are only preliminaries to the fact that the court has also to be satisfied that he, the person who had the fowl in his possession,
  "had it in his possession for the purpose of using it or permitting it to be used as aforesaid.…"—
  I suppose that means for use in fighting or in connection with the fighting. That has to be proved but, nevertheless, it is rather extraordinary to find that quite innocent and proper acts, which numerous people may do in connection with the ordinary keeping of domestic fowls, may be one of the preliminary ingredients on which their actions may be suspect as to whether they are keeping these fowls for fighting purposes or not. If that Amendment is not a satisfactory one, then I respectfully suggest to the House that it would be better to cut out paragraph (a) entirely and rely on paragraph (b), because I believe that you cannot in fact stage a real cockfight without having the appliances which, by paragraph (b), are made illegal. For those reasons I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 6, leave out line 6.—(Lord Llewellin.)
  4.10 p.m.
  LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, it may be convenient to the House if to a certain extent I follow the example of the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and deal, with your Lordships' permission, with the two sets of Amendments together, whilst at the same time reserving the right to say something further when the time comes for me to move my own Amendment. The noble Lord rightly said that this matter has arisen owing to a debate which took place
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  on the Committee stage of this Bill and which was initiated by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt. There seemed to be, if I may respectfully say so, an assumption behind that debate that nothing could possibly be left to the discretion or the imagination of the magistrates. The magistrates, by the way, have hardly been mentioned in this matter so far, and I would draw your Lordships' attention to the wording of the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has done. In lines 9 and 10 of the first page it says that the court have to be satisfied
  "… that he had it in his possession for the purpose of using it or permitting it to be used as aforesaid, …"
  Now, the court can be satisfied only by affirmative evidence, proved beyond reasonable doubt to their satisfaction, and so forth, and surely something must be left to the common sense of any bench of magistrates who have to try a case of this kind. Is there really any risk that the Bench will convict a man who genuinely has removed the spurs only for the perfectly innocent purpose of preventing the cock from fighting? I do not think there is any appreciable risk of that whatsoever. I will deal further with that when I come to my own Amendment. But something can surely be left to the imagination and discretion—
  LORD LLEWELLIN: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. Surely "imagination" is the wrong word. "Discretion," certainly.
  LORD MERTHYR: I accept the correction, if the noble Lord prefers it that way. Perhaps I may be allowed to make my point clearer by quoting a random example of another sort of case which magistrates have to try—the charge of dangerous driving of a motor car. I think I am right in saying that there is not a word in the Road Traffic Act of 1930 which says what is to be considered as dangerous driving. The question of what is and what is not dangerous driving is a matter for the magistrates. No doubt I shall be corrected if I am wrong, but I do not believe there is a word in the Act which says that if you drive your car so many feet on the wrong side of the white line, that shall be dangerous driving: the question is left to the justices. So it is in this case. I submit that there is no harm whatsoever in leaving this to the discretion of the

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  justices, who must be satisfied that an offence has been committed. Therefore, I say again that this point has been overstressed. Surely, the whole point is that the court have got to be satisfied by the prosecution, by evidence alone, that the bird has been prepared for fighting. I would ask your Lordships to bear that point in mind.
  This Amendment would undoubtedly wreck this Bill. I do not think that there is any doubt or argument about that. The Bill would be left a very small thing indeed, and left in such a way that the only offence created by this Bill would be that of having in one's possession the spurs or some other instrument. Now, these small things are so easy to conceal that the prosecution would hardly ever be successful, because there would be practically no evidence to support the prosecution. In fact, I would go so far as to say, although it is not my Bill, that paragraph (b) of Clause 1 is really a trifling matter compared with paragraph (a), which the Lord Llewellin wants to leave out. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord who is in charge of this Bill will not accept this Amendment and, indeed, will say, as I suggest may be the case, that it is better to have no Bill at all than to have a Bill amended in this way. This Bill as it stands now has received the verbal support of an official representative of Her Majesty's Government, and therefore I assume that it will also receive the support of the noble Earl who is to speak for Her Majesty's Government here this afternoon—I think that that is a justifiable assumption. The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, said that in principle he had no objection to this Bill, and certainly it is difficult to know how any person can possibly object to a Bill of this kind. At the same time, of course, it is right and proper to deal with the objections put forward by Lord Llewellin.
  In case any noble Lord thinks that this Bill is not necessary, may I say a few words to show that it is? The sport of cockfighting has been illegal for more than one hundred years—since 1835—but it has been found in the course of time a matter of extreme difficulty to collect sufficient evidence to justify prosecution. The cunning and the cleverness with which these cockfights are concealed would surprise your Lordships. But a good deal of data has been obtained
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  about the ruses employed and the decoys that are used on both sides: by the promoters of the fights and also by those who seek to find out about the fights. Both sides have employed decoys and clever ruses either to obtain evidence or to conceal it, as the case may be. There have been six convictions at least in the last twenty-five years, and everyone who has gone into this question is pretty certain that for every conviction obtained there are many other fights where there is no prosecution. It is pretty clearly known, although it cannot be proved, that as recently as 1948 there has been a cockfight and probably there have been others about which nothing whatever is known.
  I hope that I have said enough to show that this Bill is necessary in the interests of humanity. I have said that because the noble Lord wants to leave out what I submit is the vital part of this Bill. There is one more point. If this Amendment should be carried, it would prevent the stopping of the preparation of these birds for export. There is little doubt that many birds are prepared not for cockfighting in this country but for cockfighting in other countries. I am sure that no member of this House would wish that to continue; and, if this Amendment is carried, we shall be unable to stop it continuing. For those reasons, amongst many others, I hope that the House will reject this Amendment and be inclined to agree that it would be better to have no Bill at all than this Bill as amended by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin.
  4.21 p.m.
  LORD SCHUSTER: My Lords, I want to make it quite clear that it does not follow that anybody who has sympathy with the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, is of the opinion that the Bill is unnecessary. From personal knowledge of one case, at least, which I had to investigate officially not many years ago, which not only was very unpleasant in itself but also provided some evidence of the existence of a considerable degree of system in certain parts of the country, I know of the deliberate rearing of birds, the keeping of them for this purpose, and the regular arranging of cockfights. Ever since that case, I have been convinced that such a Bill as this is completely necessary.
  But it does not follow that, because it is necessary, this is the best kind of Bill, or that the particular defect at which

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  this Amendment is aimed is one that should be allowed to exist in the Bill. Everybody who knows anything about keeping young cockerels must know perfectly well that they fight, and if they are allowed to be together they fight one another with their spurs. Everybody knows, also, that the only way to prevent them from doing so is to remove the spurs. I think it is dreadful that we should pass a Bill which places people keeping cockerels and fattening them for sale in such a position that, if they remove the spurs—an act which is in itself the main method of preventing cockerels from fighting and killing one another—they are under suspicion of committing the offence of preparing birds for cockfighting. I do not agree that it would be better to have no Bill at all than this Bill as amended by the noble Lord's Amendment. When a Bill like this is introduced, it is the duty of those who are conducting it so to draft it that it avoids the dangers to which the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has referred and, at the same time, endeavours to suppress the evil at which it is aimed.
  I really do not know whether I have a clear idea of this matter. I have got into such a muddle between the two different proposals that I am not by any means certain what either of them means—but I am certain about this: we cannot mean that the mere removal of spurs or the clipping of the tail feathers shall be, as it were, prima facie evidence of the commission of an offence. If we mean that, we shall violate all the principles on which the criminal law is conducted. We cannot leave matters of that sort to the imagination of or for definition by benches of magistrates. Benches of magistrates must have before them the nature of the offence with which they are asked to deal. It is impossible to leave to the imagination the nature of the offence on which a police officer must rely when instituting a prosecution.
  4.24 p.m.
  LORD AMULREE: My Lords, when I first saw the Amendment that the noble Lord had put down on the Marshalled List I felt extremely sad, because it seemed to me that, if we were to accept an Amendment like that, it would do a great deal of damage to the purpose of the Bill. The Bill which I had the
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  pleasure of introducing to your Lordships' House about a fortnight ago really had two objects: the first was to assist in some way in blocking what was thought to be a loophole in the law, because cock-fighting was made illegal, as your Lordships have been told, in 1835. We know that there is a considerable amount of evidence that cockfighting is still conducted. The police are embarrassed because they cannot find any evidence of where the "main" is to be held, so they are rarely able to institute a prosecution to stop the cockfighting going on. The point of this little Bill was to try to make it simpler to enforce the general Act of 1835.
  The second object was really a humanitarian one. It was thought that cockfighting was a bad thing, both for the cocks that indulged in the fighting and also for the people who watched the cockfighting taking place in these "mains." So the object of the Bill was to stop birds being prepared and, at the same time, to see that people did not keep appliances—by which is meant the spurs which are used in cockfighting. The acceptance of only the second object of the Bill—namely, the provision contained in Clause 1 (1) (b)—would. I think, result in our producing a curious little unimportant Bill that it would be hardly worth while putting on the Statute Book. If the noble Lord wishes to press his Amendment, I am not sure whether it would not be better to have this Bill dropped altogether, rather than have a strange little offence put on the Statute Book.
  Another point is this. A certain amount of evidence has been accumulated by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals showing that cocks are from time to time transported by air to France to indulge in cockfights which we know take place in France. I have here a French paper which has a long article dealing with cockfighting, and gives pictures and photographs of what is obviously a current sport over there. If we are going to make it illegal only to keep spurs, it will be possible for the birds to be transported across the Channel to indulge in fighting over there. I turn to another point which, in my opinion, would be very unfair. If two people are engaged

  417
  in preparing a cockfight, one person may have the spurs in his possession but may not be the person who actually breeds and keeps the cocks. Whereas the person who has the spurs and is the less guilty party will be proceeded against and convicted, the person who prepares the cocks and conducts the fighting will not be touched at all.
  I do not think you can split the objects of this Bill into two, because they are closely interconnected. If the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, can see his way to withdraw his Amendment, I shall be pleased to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, because it lays down for the assistance of the magistrates some definition of what the offence is. If the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, can see his way to withdrawing his first Amendment, I will accept the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and we shall have a valuable little measure to go on the Statute Book.
  4.28 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, may I explain the Government's position in regard to these Amendments? First, may I repeat that we should like to see this Bill made law, for we think that it is a useful step forward? In regard to the two Amendments which we are considering, we do not think that there is much to choose between them. May I take the two Amendments together? In regard to the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, there is the danger, which has been stated by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, of vexatious prosecution. It might arise. I do not suggest that the probability is very great, because not only have certain functions to be carried out in regard to the fowls, but the birds have also to be prepared for use in fighting. So the probability of vexatious litigation is not very great. At the same time, we think the danger is there and, on balance, the Government would prefer the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin. I do not want to press that very strongly. I would mention that if Lord Llewellin's Amendment were accepted it would involve, of course, a slight change in the title of the Bill. I do not think there is any other point that I need make in regard to this matter. If the noble Lord in charge of the Bill thinks that this Amendment will wreck the Bill, that is a
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  matter for him to decide: I will not express any opinion on the point.
  4.30 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I think I raised this point in the first instance. I really do not care very much one way or another but, on the whole, I prefer Lord Llewellin's Amendment. I think it is the better of the two. This offence is not committed merely by having a domestic fowl "prepared for use in fighting." It becomes a criminal offence only if, having that domestic fowl so prepared, the court is satisfied that you have it in your possession for the purpose of using it in a fight. As a broad general principle I think that, wherever you are defining a new criminal offence, which may entail the penalty of three months' imprisonment, it is desirable to define it, if possible, with great clarity. In dealing, for example, with dangerous driving, it is impossible to set out a definition of dangerous driving. It must depend upon an infinity of circumstances. But if the offence consists of (1) having a domestic fowl prepared for use in fighting and (2) intending to use it for fighting—and both ingredients must subsist—then I think it is desirable to define with clarity what is meant by the phrase "prepared for use in fighting." If the phrase used is "prepared for use in fighting" it is better to set out a definition of what is "prepared for use in fighting," instead of setting out the definition of what is not prepared for use in fighting, which is what has been done here. Lord Merthyr sets out only what is not prepared for fighting. If you are not prepared to define what is "prepared for use in fighting," I should rather limit this Bill to the second part, making it an offence for somebody to have these instruments in his possession if they are destined for use in fighting.
  What about this question of sending birds to the Continent? As a broad general rule, we construe an English Statute on the basis that the offence is going to be committed within our jurisdiction. If the bird which is prepared, whatever that may be, is sent over to France with the object of fighting in France, would such a course of action be rendered illegal if we pass it in this form? I am not sure. It really seems to me a very stupid provision, if I may say so. All you have to do, if you are going to have cockfighting in France, is to send the bird

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  over with its spurs and trail feathers uncut and directly you get to France you cut them off; and therefore you have not the slightest effective means of preventing birds from being sent to France to take part in cockfighting. I do not know that they ever have these things for cockfighting in France, but if they do, this provision would not be in the least effective in stopping any such practice. It is completely ineffective for the purpose. It should be made an offence to export the bird to France at all for the purpose of fighting, whatever condition the bird is in, whether the preparation be made either here or in France. I feel that, on the whole, it is better to have Lord Llewellin's Amendment, because the other leaves the matter all so very vague and woolly.
  4.37 p.m.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I am obliged for the way in which the noble and learned Earl who has just spoken, and the noble Earl who spoke for the Government, have received my Amendment. I do not want to make this a nugatory Bill, but it is impossible to carry out a cockfight without having these appliances: they constitute real evidence, that the birds are used for cockfighting. On the other hand, for the most innocent reasons in the world—indeed to prevent birds fighting—a man may remove their spurs. I therefore suggest that we should agree to the Amendment which I have on the Order Paper. If, later, that is not found effective, let someone else come back to Parliament and bring something which lays down the matter far better than it is in the Bill itself or in the Amendment of Lord Merthyr. For that reason, I ask your Lordships to support my Amendment.
  4.38 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, if this Amendment is going to a Division,
  I shall not support the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin. He says that he does not wish to make this Bill nugatory, but instances have been given to show that his Amendment would make it nugatory. I do not think that there is any fear of vexatious prosecutions, or of the person being put under suspicion unjustly, for before a prosecution is undertaken, evidence with regard to the particular action generally would have to be produced, not under this Bill but under the Act by which cockfighting is made illegal. All that is said here is that among the matters to be taken into consideration is that the bird has been prepared in a way for it to be used for cockfighting. It would be for the judge or magistrate to decide in any particular case whether that was so or not. Nothing in this Bill says that, because a bird has had its spurs clipped or removed, or its tail feathers clipped, that evidence in itself would be sufficient to secure a conviction. The Bill does not say that, and it appears on the whole that, unless this House wishes, in effect, to reverse its decision in favour of the Second Reading of this Bill, it ought to reject the Amendment which would, in fact, destroy the Bill. Nor is it sufficient to say that the real evidence is the artificial spurs, for, as has been stated, there may be knowledge that one person has the spurs but may not have prepared the fowl or used it. The whole of the facts would have to be taken into account by the court, who would act in accordance with their judgment.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, asked me a question. If he will not think me discourteous I will answer it by saying no more than that I agree with it.
  On Question, Whether the Amendment shall be agreed to?
  Their Lordships divided: Contents, 26; Not-Contents, 12.

  CONTENTS

  Simonds, L (L. Chancellor.)

  Hudson, V.

  Kilmarnock, L.

  Stansgate, V.

  Llewellin, L. [Teller.]

  Woolton, L. (L. President.)

  Lloyd, L.

  Calverley, L.

  Lucas of Chilworth, L.

  Buckinghamshire, E. [Teller.]

  Ennisdale, L.

  Mancroft, L.

  De La Warr, E.

  Fairfax of Cameron, L.

  Rochdale, L.

  Fortescue, E.

  Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

  Rockley, L.

  Jowitt, E.

  Haden-Guest, L.

  Saltoun, L.

  Munster, E.

  Jeffreys, L.

  Sandhurst, L.

  Kershaw, L.

  Schuster, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS

  Samuel, V.

  Layton, L.

  Rea, L.

  Mathers, L.

  Strabolgi, L.

  Amulree, L. [Teller.]

  Merthyr, L. [Teller.]

  Webb-Johnson, L.

  Bingham, L. (E. Lucan.)

  Milner of Leeds, L.

  Wise, L.

  Greenhill, L.

  On Question, Amendment agreed to.

  Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, the next Amendment is consequential on the last one. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 16, leave out ("domestic fowl").—(Lord Llewellin.)
  LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, the next Amendment is also consequential. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 2, line 4, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Llewellin.)

  INSPECTORS' ENTRY OF PRIVATE HOUSES
  4.48 p.m.
  LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what is the legal position of a householder who, for reasons which the householder considers proper, refuses to admit an inspector or other official demanding entry and when the inspector or official does not produce a search warrant. The noble Lord said: My Lords, we have been dealing with one kind of violence and I hope that your Lordships will allow me to bring up a matter referring to another kind of violence. It arises out of the Question put by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, on the 23rd of this month. Your Lordships will remember that Lord Llewellin startled a good many of us by asking a question of the Government about the very large number of officials who, apparently, have the right of entry into private premises. There are 3,887 of them, but the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, who replied, issued a table which made that fact seem not quite so alarming when the table was examined. In the course of the cross-examination which the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and myself conducted of the Government, I asked what is the position in the case, for example, of a woman alone in the
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  house when, perhaps, one or two personages come to the door representing themselves to be functionaries of some kind with a right of entry. The woman's husband not being at home, she refuses to let them in. What is her legal position? The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, to whom I was referred, said he required notice of the matter, and would like the question to be put in a more specific way. I have tried to do my best, and I regret that I have not been more specific. But I think it is useful to explore the situation a little, and then perhaps the noble and learned Lord Chancellor can give the ordinary liege some useful advice.
  First of all, as to these functionaries; among the 3,887 are not mentioned anyone representing the Post Office, the people who come to look at the telephone, or the Gas Board or Electricity people who come to read he householder's meter. They do not come into this voluminous list.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: But they all come by consent of the householder.
  LORD STRABOLGI: They do, indeed, under contract. But the principle remains. They may come at an inconvenient time, and I want to know what the legal position of the householder is. Let me come to the list. Twenty represent the Minister of Civil Aviation and investigate air accidents. I think we can eliminate those. Obviously they go to the scenes of accidents and do not really come into this question at all. Then, 859 are war damage assessors. I imagine that their work should be nearly over by now and, in any case, they presumably come by appointment. There are 2,788, employed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose duties are the examination of property for estate duty, rating valuation, development charges and claims on the development fund. I imagine that they come to a house or premises after some correspondence, and they are expected. There are 115 who are also employed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but act for the Collector of Customs and

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  Excise, to stop avoidance of revenue duty. Twenty represent the Minister of Health and they are for the protection of mental patients, including those detained without authority. Obviously these officers of the Board of Control are necessary and are doing useful work. Lastly, there are 85 children inspectors employed by the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland to visit boarded-out children. I think your Lordships will agree that those children inspectors have not only a right hut a duty to make unexpected visits, and I do not think anyone can possibly object. If a woman boards children, it is understood that they can be visited at any time, and I think that is perfectly just and proper.
  Now I come to the general principle which I venture to raise. The gas and electricity men wear a uniform and they have written authority, but the telephone men do not wear a uniform at all. The unfortunate American lady who was nearly killed in Brown's Hotel recently admitted a man who said he had come to see to the telephone. He assaulted her and nearly killed her. Recently, a relative of mine was alone in her small house—her maid was out—when a man came to the door. She went to the door, but fortunately kept on the chain—a very desirable thing to fit on the door in the curious times in which we live. She saw a young man in a dirty mackintosh, who said he had come to repair the telephone. Knowing that her telephone was in perfectly good order, she slammed the door in his face. She then went to the window and told the young man there was nothing wrong with her telephone and asked who he was. He replied, "I am very sorry. I have looked again at my instructions and I find this is the wrong house. I ought to have gone to No. 40. This is No. 30, I suppose." That kind of thing is most irregular and improper. There was a woman alone in the house. This man comes along to her door, without any evidence of who he is or what he is. Is she to be blamed for refusing admittance? He might have gone into the house, knocked her about and robbed the place. And people would have said: "What a fool you were to let such a man in!" No doubt in this case he was a perfectly respectable mechanic sent by the Post Office.
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  Parliament has always been very jealous of the rights of householders. Earlier in this Session, I raised the question of the apparent increase in crimes of cruelty to children, and in the course of that debate a noble Lord suggested that the inspectors of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children should be given the right of access to private houses. Peer after Peer objected to this, including the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor. When we have all these officials with a right under contract, as the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, says, or under Statute, to enter people's houses, and with crimes of violence still prevalent, I think the situation requires further investigation and ventilation.
  What I suggest is this. I presume these functionaries who come to houses to de, various duties must have written authority: but to produce a written document to a woman alone in a house and who may be nervous, is not fair to her. Why cannot they carry some sort of badge which can be easily seen? It might be said, of course, that a criminal can forge or steal a badge, but that would be an offence. I am thinking of the sheriffs in America. I have never seen one, but I have seen them on the cinematograph screen and, apparently, they wear a badge on their breasts which they expose at the right time and immediately everyone knows who they are. Why should not an official wear a badge like that, which can he produced if he has to visit a house, in order to make himself known and properly identifiable?
  In any case, I think we ought to know from the highest authority, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, if he is in a position to tell us, what is the legal position of a householder who, for reasons which satisfy him or her, refuses to admit such an official at an inconvenient hour. I have given instructions to my own servants that they are always to keep the door on a chain and to admit nobody until they are certain of his bona fides. I have had fitted to all the doors of my houses chains which allow the door to be opened a few inches, but no further, and I think that that should be done by everyone.
  I think the general situation should be clarified, if it is at all possible to do so. I agree that I might have been more

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  specific in my question, but I have tried to cover the whole field, and I hope that out of it some good will come.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, as I told the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, who has asked this Question, I tried to get in touch with him in order that the Question might be put in what I think would have been a more helpful form. I venture to repeat the Question which the Government are asked.
  "What is the legal position of a householder who, for reasons which the householder considers proper, refuses to admit an inspector or other official demanding entry and when the inspector or official does not produce a search warrant."
  I think that must refer to an inspector or other official who has a statutory right, but does not have a search warrant. Obviously, a person who has no right can be refused admittance with whatever degree of violence is necessary. We are dealing with a person who has a statutory right, but not a search warrant.
  Upon that footing, I answer the question in this way. Where the power to enter a private house (I pause again to say that I understand the noble Lord to be referring to a private house, and not to a factory, or anything of that kind) exclusively used as such is conferred upon an official by Statute, the Statute also provides for penalties for obstructing the official whilst exercising those powers in the execution of his duties. From inquiries that I have made I have been unable to ascertain that any prosecutions of this nature have been undertaken in recent years. But if proceedings had to be taken against a householder it would be for the court to decide, having regard to the terms of the relevant Statute and the facts of the particular case, whether an offence had been committed.
  I have answered that in the only way I can answer such a general question, in quite general terms but I have been at a good deal of pains to investigate the matter further, because I know that it is of wide interest, not only to the noble Lord who has raised the Question to-day hut to many other persons as well. If it is the wish of the House, I will read something which looks rather like an essay on the subject. It is difficult to give a compendious answer, because the terms of the Statutes vary so widely. I refer to the list given in answer to Lord
  426
  Llewellin's Question on July 23 showing the numbers of persons entitled to enter private houses without specific search warrants. Many persons having the power of entry and inspection are not "snoopers" in the popular sense. For example, inspectors under Section 35 of the War Damage Act, 1943, where it is clearly to the householder's advantage to have his premises inspected, are not "snoopers." Similarly, the only case in which an inspector of the Ministry of Civil Aviation would enter private premises under the Civil Aviation Act, 1949, to investigate an air accident, would he if an aeroplane had crashed in private property. In that case, the householder would obviously want officials of the Ministry to investigate and remove the aircraft as soon as possible.
  In other cases the power to enter and inspect is obviously necessary: for example, officials of the Board of Control for the protection of lunatics under the Lunacy Act, 1890, or inspectors of the Home Office or the Scottish Home Department making visits to boarded-out children under Section 54 of the Children Act, 1948. In the remaining cases—that is to say, the cases of officers of Inland Revenue or collectors of Customs and Excise—the visit of officials might be unwelcome, though as a general rule no objection whatever is made to the entry of, for example, officials of the Inland Revenue to value property for estate duty. Since the purposes for which the officials under the different Statutes may be authorised to enter are so varied, the method in which the power may be exercised also necessarily varies. Thus, in some cases an inspector is required by Statute to produce, if so required, his authority—for example, Section 35 (1) of the War Damage Act, 1943, and Section 54 (6) of the Children Act, 1948—whereas an officer of the Inland Revenue entering property for the purpose of valuation for estate duty under Section 7 (8) of the Finance Act, 1894, is not so required to produce his authority. Nevertheless, in practice, I understand that he does so if asked for it.
  Where a power of entry is conferred by Statute there is also statutory provision for penalties in the case of obstructing the officer in the execution of his duties. For example, Section 204 of the Customs Act, 1876 (we are going back

  427
  a long way, my Lords) gives very wide powers to officers to search houses for uncustomed or prohibited goods under writs of assistance issued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as under search warrants issued by justices; and Section 12 (5) of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1881, provides that it shall be an offence to obstruct any officer of customs in the execution of his duty, the penalty for which is a fine not exceeding £100.
  The position of a householder, therefore, who obstructs an officer in the execution of his duty to enter will vary according to the terms of the Statute which provides the penalty. For example, under the Children Act, 1948, he may render himself liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £5, in the case of a first offence, or £20 in the case of a second or any subsequent offence. Whether or not the offence has been committed will, of course, be a matter for the court to decide, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the case and the terms of the relevant Statute. Pausing there for one moment, I would say that if there were a lonely woman in a house who was afraid and barred the door, and for that reason the inspector was not admitted, I cannot but suppose that the court would take a very lenient view of the obstruction.
  I conclude with this, because I think it is perhaps the most important point. Although most of these officials will not be unwelcome, an Englishman's home is still his castle, and Her Majesty's Government consider it desirable that powers of entry into private premises should be confined to the smallest possible number of persons. Already a reduction of some 2,000 has been made, and my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has under urgent consideration, in consultation with other Departments concerned, further reductions in the number of persons possessing these powers.
  I should like to add one word of a personal nature. In the debate upon the Motion introduced by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, I referred in my speech to the fact that he had voted in favour of the Heating Appliances (Safeguards) Bill, and said that it contained power for an inspector to inspect appliances in private
  428
  houses. I was wrong about that. I should have said "private premises"—that is to say, premises in which those appliances were exposed for sale. That Act gives no right to enter a private house exclusively used as such. That is perhaps a small error, but I made it, and I apologise to the noble Viscount.
  I hope that I have not wearied the House. I have gone to some pains to find out what I could about this matter in order to answer the Question put down by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. I would add only this in regard to the gas inspector and the electric light man. Her Majesty's Government can assume no responsibility for them; they are not the servants of Her Majesty's Government. As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, pointed out, if they come, they come under a contractual arrangement by which the gas is installed—or I imagine that they do. If they have not that right, they have no right at all. Again, I was not prepared to deal with the gas man or the electric light man, and it may be that I am not word-perfect about that.
  5.9 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I am sure that the House will be grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his most valuable statement. As this was one of the points raised in the course of the debate to which the noble and learned Lord has just referred, I should like to ask him one question. He has given a number of categories of inspectors, but he has not mentioned inspectors under the food rationing Acts. Are there any such inspectors? If there are, are they required to show their authority when entering premises; and what form of authority would they have to show?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think I can answer that point. I was dealing (and I hope that I made it quite clear) with entry into private houses. There is no provision under any of the Acts relating to food or food rationing which now enables an inspector to enter a private house.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Can they not enter a shop, for example, to see whether there are unrationed articles kept there?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the House wishes me to do so, I will explore on another day the vastly larger subject

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  of premises which are not private houses. The issue has mainly been directed to entry upon houses used exclusively as dwellinghouses. If we are going into the larger area of shops, factories and other premises, then I must deal with that independently. I have been dealing solely with houses used as dwellinghouses, and in regard to that there is no right of entry for any food inspector. I speak "without the book," but I think that during the war there may have been regulations which enabled an inspector to visit houses to see whether there had been hoarding, or something of that kind.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I was not here at the beginning of the noble and learned Lord's speech, and I apologise. Did I understand him to say that, so far as gas and electric light is concerned, there is no statutory right for inspectors to go into a private house? I understood him to say it was merely a matter of contract. I was a little surprised to hear that. I have recollections of being bombarded on the question when we introduced the Gas and Electricity Bills.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I must speak subject to correction. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, in answering Lord Llewellin on July 23—only the other day—gave a list of inspectors who are entitled to enter private houses without specific search warrants. Certainly there was no suggestion that a gas inspector or an electric light man was amongst the number. But I will have the matter looked into.
  5.12 p.m.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, as this Question of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, arises out of one that I asked, may I say just two or three words? I was delighted to hear the Lord Chancellor say that Her Majesty's Government are looking into this matter and are determined that the smallest possible number of persons shall have this statutory right of access to private dwelling-houses without a search warrant. I believe that we shall all agree that people like children's officers should have a right to enter a house where a child is boarded out, because when a household takes in a boarded-out child they ought to be told and should consent to the fact that an inspector can conic in at any time to see how the child is
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  going on. To my mind, there arises an obligation on them to the boarding-out authority to be inspected, if they undertake the care and housing of a boarded-out child.
  It is the vast mass of Inland Revenue inspectors to whom I take a good deal of objection, especially those who come for rating purposes. There used to be a very easy way for officials to get the information they wanted—it has been practised for years by the Inland Revenue Commissioners. If a person has not made a satisfactory income tax return, they put his assessment at about double what they think it ought to be, and then the onus falls upon the person assessed to produce the right figures which he should have produced in the fast place. In the old days, when rating was not done by the Inland Revenue officials but was done by the local government valuers, they had not this statutory right of access to the houses. But, of course, anybody who was going to appeal would say: "Certainly, come and look at the house. We want to get all the facts agreed between us." As a matter of principle, I believe that in the vast majority of cases these officials ought not to have a statutory right to demand access to a private dwellinghouse. Of course, they should have the right of asking whether they can come, and the sensible householder will let them come in on these rating and other matters, because that is the way we have always worked the law in this country. That is the difference between us and some foreign countries—that people here comply with authority and try to co-operate with the law. The less the law relies on powers of compulsion, the more it will encourage the co-operation of the private individual up and down this country. That is why I am delighted to hear that the Government are looking into this matter.
  I forget what happened in the case of the Gas and Electricity Acts. Originally, before the industries were nationalised, I believe that when you had the gas laid on your contract allowed access to the gas inspector. I believe that it was part of the contract between the citizen and the gas authority. Whether that was altered by the Gas Act I do not know, but at any rate if it was I think it was to the disadvantage. After all, the householder voluntarily asked for gas to be laid on; he wanted the apparatus kept

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  in good order. I am one of those people who do not believe in relying on compulsory powers when the ordinary give-and-take between the citizen and the authorities running the services he desires ought to bring about all that is wanted. I doubt whether these officials have a statutory right of entry—unless the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, thought my Question referred only to Government officials. The gas and electricity people are not supposed to be Government officials, but it is an odd thing that they are not, as the State owns both those great industries. It may well be that that is the reason why they were not included, and I suggest to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that that may be the reason. Let me conclude by saying once again that I am delighted that the Government are looking into this matter, and I am certain that we shall see something further done.
  5.19 p.m.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I detain your Lordships for a few moments on this matter, because I was somewhat disturbed by the tone of the remarks at the recent Sitting of the House when the subject first arose. I am grateful to-day, not only to the noble Lord who introduced the subject, but to the noble and learned Lord who sits upon the Woolsack, because both of them have discussed this matter as it ought to be discussed—without references to "snooping" and all the other words which may be used respecting people who are engaged in somewhat difficult work. I rather resent the use of the word "snooping" in this respect. I take the view, as does the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, that it is entirely the wrong word, because these men and women—and women are engaged in this work at times—are carrying out duties which arise out of the decisions of Parliament, and they are entitled to our fullest support in carrying out those duties in the best and most efficient way.
  I hope, therefore, that it may be possible to indicate, when debates on the functions of inspectors take place,
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  and we are critical of the exact work on which they may be engaged, that we have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and women who are carrying out this work, on behalf of the nation and not necessarily on their own behalf. I conclude by saying that the number of inspectors appointed by the Government and by local authorities is comparatively small. There must be many more persons calling on houses day by day and week by week who are in the employ of neither the Government nor a local authority, and this should be remembered.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: But everybody welcomes the milkman.
  LORD SHEPHERD: I am not referring to the milkman or to any one kind of caller in particular, but to the mass. I hope, therefore, it may be possible to say in this House to men and women representing government or local authority, "You are entitled to, and you may rely on, our utmost respect and support."

  SCOTTISH AMICABLE LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY'S BILL
  Reported, without amendment.
  GLAMORGAN COUNTY COUNCIL BILL
  The Queen's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  NORTH WALES HYDRO ELECTRIC POWER BILL
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  House adjourned at twenty-two minutes past five o'clock.