Sitting of 26 February 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  FAREHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL (by Order)
  Read a Second time, and committed.
  NORTH WALES HYDRO-ELECTRIC POWER BILL (by Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  ROCHESTER CORPORATION BILL (by Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  SCOTTISH MUTUAL ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL
  Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BRITISH ARMY

    Corporals' Messes
    Mr. George Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War which units in London District make arrangements for junior non-commissioned officers to feed apart from private soldiers.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head): All regular units in London District do so.
    Mr. Wigg: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is a recent arrangement or whether it has always been so?
    Mr. Head: This order was issued on 9th January, 1952.
    Mr. Wigg: Will the Minister tell us the reason for this change of policy?
    Mr. Head: There is no major change of policy in this matter. In the Brigade of Guards a corporal is the same as a sergeant, and this merely includes the lance-corporals.
    Mr. Wigg: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why in that case he has not amended Queen's Regulations to provide for the establishment of corporals' messes in the Brigade of Guards?
    Mr. Head: This is not a matter for Queen's Regulations, but a domestic matter in the Brigade of Guards. I see nothing either in the performance of their duties or in the recruiting figures to suggest that there is anything wrong in it.
    Brigadier Christopher Peto: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in nearly every good regiment that habit pertains and that the corporals mess by themselves?
    Mr. Head: That habit even pertains with the Opposition in the House of Commons Dining Room.
    Mr. E. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not the appropriate occasion for discussing the segregation of classes in the Members' Dining Room, and that it ought to be discussed on some other occasion? May I ask the Minister to advance a reason for this change? Was this a request on the part of the junior non-commissioned officers or the private soldiers, or has this been imposed at the dictation of the commanding officer, and who at the War Office is responsible for this decision?
    Mr. Head: As I said before, this is a domestic matter and the reason behind it is that every unit has got to do everything it can to increase the authority of N.C.O.s. Nowadays N.C.O.s are very young, and it makes it a great deal easier for them to maintain authority if they are given a certain status.
    Mr. Wigg: In view of the importance of this matter and of the fact that there is the clearest evidence of an attempt on the part of the Secretary of State for War to introduce class distinction into the Army, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    W.D. Land (Cultivation)
    Mr. W. F. Deedesasked the Secretary of State for War the reasons for the recent changes in policy in respect of land held by, and farmed on behalf of, his Department.
    Mr. Head: My hon. Friend is no doubt referring to the decision to wind up the Army Agricultural Scheme. This scheme was introduced during the last war when large areas of cultivable land were occupied by the Army. This is no longer the case and it is, therefore, thought best that such land as remains should be leased to farmers.
    Mr. Deedes: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this will not lead to any diminution in agricultural production in these areas?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir, I think the reverse will be the effect.

    2nd Battalion, D.L.I.
    Mr. W. M. F. Vaneasked the Secretary of State for War for an assurance that the 2nd Battalion the Durham Light Infantry, which is to be raised this year, will be formed at a station within the County of Durham.
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Vane: Will the right hon. Gentleman see if possible that the corporals at this station are able to mess separately?

    Personal Cases
    Mr. R. J. Mellishasked the Secretary of State for War why 22480142 Signalman N. Willis was, after qualifying as tradesman, operator keyboard, transferred to an infantry unit.
    Mr. Head: This man was doing his initial training as a keyboard operator and was transferred to the infantry because he was found unsuitable to remain in a technical corps.
    Mr. Mellish: In view of the facts I have now received, will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to meet him privately to discuss this matter?
    Mr. Head indicated assent.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughesasked the Secretary of State for War if he is now in a position to reply to the representations made to him about the death at Oswestry
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    of Gunner Douglas Owen, Holyhead, by the hon. Member for Anglesey on 3rd and 28th January; and, in particular, if he has considered the findings of the coroner's inquest and question of compensation to the late Gunner Owen's widowed mother.
    Mr. Head: I have written to the hon. Member about this case.
    Mr. Hughes: I have not yet received the Minister's reply. Although it was conveyed to me by telephone this morning, I am not satisfied with what I have heard.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must ask a question.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the gunner I referred to in my Question collapsed at five minutes past 12 and there was no medical attention available to him until 12.45? Will the Minister inform the House how many medical orderlies are in this camp and why none of them were available to attend this man?
    Mr. Head: This man collapsed while doing physical training and was immediately taken off to the hospital, which was some distance away; but a medical orderly is not an expert in medical attention. However, we have taken note of certain recommendations regarding supervision of physical training exercises, and these will be borne in mind.
    Mr. James Callaghan: Will the Minister remember that it has taken him two months to reply to my hon. Friend, who apparently has still not received the letter? Can the Minister tell the House why this man was left lying dead in the gymnasium whilst the class went on with the training and why medical attention was not made available for so long?
    Mr. Head: The time involved was three-quarters of an hour. By and large, one is fortunate in a unit if it takes only 10 minutes in sending a man to find the doctor and getting him to the necessary place; it may take longer. In this case, I do not think there was any actual fault, in view of the location of the hospital and the gymnasium. It took three-quarters of an hour: a quarter of an hour would have been better, but, short of having a medical superintendent at every P.T. class, one cannot obviate that possibility.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is it not desirable that there should be someone in charge of P.T. who understands first aid and can take appropriate steps, and is it not the case that in this instance medical attention was not sent for, but the commanding officer happened to be going on his rounds and saw this man lying at the side of the gymnasium?
    Mr. Head: I have no information which corroborates the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's statement. As to the former part, the recommendation as to first aid, the supervising of P.T. classes will be borne in mind.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.
    Mrs. Jean Mannasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now completed his investigations into the death of Trooper Burgess; to what extent he accepts liability for this accident; and what action he contemplates.
    Mr. Head: I have seen the proceedings of the court of inquiry into this case but have decided that, before I give the hon. Lady a definite answer, I must refer certain points back to Malaya. A further letter will be sent to her as soon as these points have been clarified.
    Mrs. Mann: If it is the case that Trooper Burgess died on 1st September, and that this matter has been under active consideration since 1st September, would the right hon. Gentleman kindly tell me when he will attend to it?
    Mr. Head: I can assure the hon. Lady that I am attending to it. She will appreciate that this man was killed by an explosion, and I do not want to write to the hon. Lady apportioning blame where it is not due. I am not absolutely satisfied by the court of inquiry as to the reasons of the accident.
    Mrs. Mann: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the cause is said to be a faulty grenade; and if the grenades are faulty, does that not indicate immediate action on behalf of all the other lads in Malaya who might be handling faulty grenades?
    Mr. Head: I can assure the hon. Lady that safety precautions have been taken, but there is an additional question about
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    the procedure on grenade practice which I should prefer to clear up before I write to the hon. Lady.

    Marriage Regulations (Postings)
    Mr. Wedgwood Bennasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the unsatisfactory working of the regulations under which British troops marrying without permission are posted to different theatres, he will consider establishing some sort of tribunals, so that soldiers infringing these regulations may have an opportunity of making statements before any action is taken.
    Mr. Head: No further postings under this rule will take place. A new regulation, which will not involve posting, will shortly be introduced.
    Mr. T. Driberg: Does the right hon. Gentleman's statement today represent a satisfactory solution of the problem which we debated just before Christmas in relation to the case of Guardsman Smith?
    Mr. Head: I think the new regulation, which is now in draft and will very shortly be approved, will solve the problem without involving posting a man away.
    Mr. E. Fernyhough: Does not the Minister realise that this interference by the Army authorities in the right of any man to marry the girl he chooses is causing great affront to decent people in this country, and does he not really believe that one of the fundamental freedoms of any man is the right to marry the girl he chooses without any reference to anybody in authority?
    Mr. Head: I think the Army has a responsibility in this respect—with the very large number of young men in Germany—to see that they do not rashly get married to undesirable girls. On the other hand, I think the new regulation will fulfil that function without the necessity for posting.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Janner.
    Mr. Benn: On a point of order. I did ask the Question but I have not had an opportunity of putting a supplementary question.
    Mr. Speaker: I will give the hon. Gentleman an opportunity.
    Mr. Benn: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it very widely known that these new regulations are coming into effect? Nothing could be worse if men posted to other theatres are given the impression that the reason for their posting is that they married German girls.
    Mr. Head: No man has been posted for this reason during the last two months. Directly the orders are approved they will be circulated to the whole of the Rhine Army.

    Bullet-proof Waistcoats
    Mr. Barnett Jannerasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is yet in a position to make any report about the effectiveness of the light-weight bulletproof nylon waistcoats worn by allied infantrymen in Korea.
    Mr. Head: No, Sir. We are, however, keeping in close touch with the United States Army authorities on the development and trial of this clothing.
    Mr. Janner: Has the Minister any idea when he is likely to be able to give some definite information?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir. I could not give an exact reply.
    Mr. Mellish: Can the right hon. Gentleman arrange that hon. Members of the Government Front Bench have one of these, particularly after the Budget?

    Reservists (Release Arrangements)
    Mr. George Craddockasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that on 21st December last reservists from Korea disembarked at Southampton from the "Empire Fowey" and were instructed to proceed to Newton Abbot for release, and after an all-day journey found on arrival they were not expected and most of the staff had gone on Christmas leave; and what steps he is taking to prevent a recurrence of such unfortunate proceedings.
    Mr. Head: I very much regret that the arrangements for the reception of these men went astray. Three days after this ship reached Southampton a further troopship was due there, from which it was decided to send all the men who disembarked immediately on leave in order that they might spend Christmas at home. Unfortunately, owing to an error in a
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    teleprinter message, the unit at Newton Abbot was led to believe that the men from the "Empire Fowey" would similarly be sent straight to their homes. Arrangements were improvised to meet the unexpected arrival of these men and they were paid and sent off to their homes without delay.
    Mr. Craddock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these soldiers were told at Newton Abbot that they should have been discharged at Southampton and that they spent the night arguing, and the following morning they were given £2 10s. and a railway pass? That was for Christmas leave, and many of these men were family men. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] This is still a question. After Christmas these soldiers had to return—many of them from Yorkshire—to Newton Abbot for their discharge, wasting the time of the men getting a job and wasting public money. May I ask the Minister—
    Mr. C. J. M. Alport: On a point of order, is an hon. Gentleman entitled to ask a very long supplementary of this sort, which is inappropriate as a supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: I did feel that the hon. Member's question was rather lengthy and was giving information rather than asking for it. It would help if hon. Members kept their supplementary questions short.
    Mr. Craddock: Will the right hon. Gentleman have an inquiry into this matter, as broad-based as the Prime Minister's political affiliations, and may I ask—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member cannot monopolise Question time like this.

    Brigade of Guards
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War what authority governs the publication of the Regulations for the Brigade of Guards.
    Mr. Head: These Regulations, which relate to the dress, ceremonial duties, etc. of the Brigade of Guards, are issued on behalf of the Sovereign by the Senior Colonel of the Brigade of Guards. They were first published in 1853 by command of Queen Victoria and are brought up to date from time to time.
    Mr. Wigg: Can we take it that there will be a new publication of these Regulations?
    Mr. Head: There will not be a new publication of these Regulations until major amendments are made justifying a new issue.
    Mr. Michael Stewartasked the Secretary of State for War in what respects the methods of obtaining a regular commission in the Brigade of Guards differ from those prevailing in other regiments and corps.
    Mr. Head: There are no major differences between the Brigade of Guards and other regiments and corps in this matter.
    Mr. Stewart: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is necessary for an officer, in order to get a regular commission in the Brigade of Guards, to have the approval of the commanding officer of one of the regiments in that Brigade?
    Mr. Head: In all regiments of the British Army, before a commission is granted to a regiment the approval of the colonel has to be obtained.
    Mr. Stewart: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying then that there is no distinction whatever in that respect between the Brigade of Guards and other regiments?
    Mr. Head: The distinction is only that in the Brigade of Guards the regimental lieutenant-colonel who is in fact a colonel, is a serving officer, whereas in most other regiments he is a past officer who has retired. The only other difference in the whole matter is that officers for commissioning in the Brigade of Guards go to Caterham and other officers do not. Otherwise the procedure is absolutely identical.

    Troops, Jamaica (Christmas Parcels)
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for War why the 1st Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers, now at Kingston, Jamaica, have not received Christmas parcels which were forwarded to Grenada when they were serving there, but not subsequently sent back to Jamaica.
    Mr. Head: I have called for an immediate report and will write to the hon. Member when I receive it.

    Officers (Expenses)
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Secretary of State for War for an estimate of the annual expenditure on uniform, messing and social life which is a consequence of the grant of commissioned rank; and what steps he is taking to keep such expenditure within reasonable limits.
    Mr. Head: The estimated annual expenditure on uniform maintenance is £50 and this amount ranks for Income Tax rebate. The maximum daily messing charge permitted is 2s. 6d., or some £45 a year. The rate within this limit is determined within each mess and the average is probably about £30 a year.
    Mr. Stewart: Would the right hon. Gentleman say, in particular, whether National Service officers are required to wear No. 1 Dress; and, if so, whether he thinks this is necessary?
    Mr. Head: I should not like to give an answer to that question without notice.
    Mr. Wigg: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us what messing allowance applies to junior N.C.O.s in the Brigade of Guards?
    Mr. John Dugdale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are certain regiments in which it is impossible for a man to accept a commission unless he has a private income, and that he is told so by the commanding officers of those regiments?
    Mr. Head: I should like to take this opportunity of categorically denying that statement. The Brigade of Guards have stated emphatically that there is absolutely nothing to prevent an officer joining the Brigade of Guards who has no private income whatever.

    Recruiting (Annual Report)
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will publish an annual report on Army recruiting similar to that issued annually before the war.
    Mr. Head: The annual report referred to was very long and detailed. The effort and expense of its publication are not justified at the present time: but, if the hon. Member has any particular information in mind, I will consider making it available to the House.
    Mr. Stewart: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in these reports one can obtain very interesting information about the numbers of men applying to get into the Army in the years before the war, which some of the right hon. Gentlemen's hon. Friends were saying they could not find in a debate recently; and that a comparison of those figures with figures for unemployment in the same years is of very great interest?
    Mr. Head: I willingly acknowledge that, and I should like to take this opportunity of saying to the hon. Gentleman that in the debate on that subject I was wrong.

    Overseas Stations (Army Council Visits)
    Mr. F. J. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for War what visits have been paid to overseas stations by members of the Army Council in recent months.
    Mr. Head: In the past year the Chief of the Imperial General Staff visited Berlin and Austria and attended the manoeuvres of the British Army of the Rhine. The Quartermaster-General paid two visits to the Middle East Land Forces and one to Germany. The Adjutant-General visited Germany.
    Mr. Bellenger: In view of the absence of any visit by a member of the Army Council to the Far East Land Forces, could the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is his intention that he personally or some senior member of the Army Council should visit that area, particularly as it now seems from the Prime Minister's edict yesterday that no hon. Members of this House are allowed to visit that area?
    Mr. Head: I have many intentions, all of which are subject to approval from other authorities. I should not like to go further than that.
    Mr. Bellenger: Then may we take it from that answer that the right hon. Gentleman is free himself to visit troops in the Far East if he wants to go, in spite of what the Prime Minister said?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir, but the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in all these matters there are questions such as Parliamentary Sessions, and I have to obtain the approval of my superiors. I
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    can assure him that I have the point very much in mind.
    Mr. Shinwell: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not saying that he is free to go to the Far East, or anywhere else overseas, without consulting the Prime Minister?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir, and that is exactly what I intended to say. I think it is what I did say.
    Mr. F. Beswick: May we also take it that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to ask permission for a delegation of hon. Members of both sides of the House to go to Korea?
    Mr. Head: That is not a matter within my sphere of responsibility.

    Terminal Grants
    Mr. Alportasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in the event of an officer continuing his service after becoming eligible for a terminal grant and dying before this service ends, the grant for which he has become eligible is paid to his estate.
    Mr. Head: No, Sir. A terminal grant is part of the award to an officer on his retirement, and is not an award for which he qualifies after a certain period of service.
    Mr. Alport: Is not the fact that if a man has died it automatically means the termination of his service; and in those circumstances surely his estate should receive the award he has earned as a result of his service in the Army?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir. The object of this payment is to enable an officer who has finished his service to have some capital sum with which to start up a new job, to buy a house, or start a business. The question of his death is another matter, covered by a different form of award.
    Captain Robert Ryder: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that if an officer is killed in these circumstances this terminal grant is needed to help his next of kin?
    Mr. Head: The question of dependants and wives of officers killed is a different subject.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is in

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    the highest degree inequitable that the Government should make a profit out of a man's premature death; and that the question being put to him is that, where a man who might have retired and taken his grant has stayed on, and therefore not taken it, it is quite unfair that he should be deprived of the benefits of what by contract he has in all substance already earned?
    Mr. Head: There are two questions here. The first is to ensure that when an officer leaves the Army he will be able to find a job and start up a career in civilian life, and that is what this grant is aimed at. The second question is that his dependants should be looked after, and that is a different matter, which comes under a different system.

    Courts of Inquiry (Reports)
    Mr. Desmond Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for War the reasons for the general policy of not publishing the reports of courts of inquiry, such as that which investigated the death of Sister Anthony, in view of the widespread demand that the full facts should be published.
    Mr. Head: The reason for this policy is that witnesses should have every protection in giving the fullest possible statement of the facts, and the court itself should have the assurance that its opinions will not be made public and will only reach those whose duty it is to consider the findings.
    Mr. Donnelly: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware, despite the answer he has given, that there is a good deal of public disquiet about this matter, and that it is in the public interest not only that justice should be done but that justice should be seen to be done?
    Mr. Head: This procedure has gone on for a long time, and I am confident that it is wise that proceedings of this nature should not be published. There is, however, nothing to stop a statement giving the general terms of the findings of the court, and that is done in many cases.

    GYPSY SURVEY, KENT
    Mr. Norman Doddsasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress has been made in
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    respect to the gypsy survey in Kent; what form it is taking; and when it is expected to be completed.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The answer to the hon. Member's Question is contained in the statement made by the Kent County Council on 27th January, a copy of which was sent to him on 15th February.
    Mr. Dodds: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that people outside Parliamentary circles who are greatly interested in this problem deeply appreciate the sympathetic and helpful way in which his civil servants and the Kent County Planning Officer are approaching this matter, and will he give them every assistance to work out a blue print in Kent which will serve as a pattern for the rest of the country?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said.
    Mr. Gerald Williams: Will my right hon. Friend say why Kent is singled out for this distinction? Is Kent more gypsy-minded than other counties?
    Mr. Macmillan: Presumably because it is a very progressive county.

  HOUSING

    Approved Schemes
    Mr. Leslie Haleasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government the number of houses representing the total, to the most recent convenient date, of the applications received by him from local authorities for approval in respect of their housing schemes for the year 1952; how many applications have been approved; and how many houses these approved applications involve.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: The published housing returns give full information of the progress of housing which is a continuous operation.
    Mr. Hale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is very grave disquiet about the amount of progress, and will he tell the House quite frankly whether there is any truth in the suggestion now being widely made that plans are being evolved for a new form of building which is about half-way between

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    a moderate-size house and a commodious dog kennel, which is called a cottagette, and will that form the basis of his future housing programme?
    Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is not relevant to the Question asked, and if it were relevant, it is completely untrue.
    Mr. J. A. Sparksasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) if the number of dwellings in local authority housing schemes approved since October, 1951, and comparative figure for the same period in 1950–51;
    (2) the number of dwellings completed by local authorities since October, 1951, and the comparative figure for the same period in 1950–51.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: If the hon. Member has housing allocations in mind, I would refer him to the answer I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) and others on 7th December last.
    Mr. Sparks: I have not housing allocations in mind. What I have in mind is what is stated in the Question. Can I ask the Minister for a reply to my Question, which asks for the number of dwellings in housing schemes approved since October, 1951, and the number of completions which are not up to date?
    Mr. Macmillan: All these matters are dealt with in detail in the housing returns. I do not propose to abandon the practice of my predecessors in connection with this matter.
    Mr. Sparks: Is the Minister aware that that is not correct; that the monthly housing returns do not contain details of approved schemes but only completions; that the last return was issued in January; that the housing appendix, which does contain details of approvals, was issued for 31st December and, therefore, no up to date information is available?
    Mr. Macmillan: I propose to adhere to the practice of my predecessors, and I must ask the hon. Gentleman to have the patience to await the returns when they are published month by month.

    Building Workers
    Mr. Haleasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government to what extent he anticipates the housing programme will be affected by the recent diminution in the number of building workers.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am not aware of any recent decrease in the number of building workers, other than the normal seasonal trend.
    Mr. Hale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the appropriate information about the diminution of building workers is available to me in the published reports?
    Mr. Macmillan: The figure in December, 1950, was 216,000, and in December, 1951, 224,000, and that does not seem to me to be a diminution.

    Crown Property (Evictions)
    Mr. William A. Stewardasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how often, during the last six months, local government authorities have applied for requisitioning powers under Defence Regulation 51 in cases where tenants are threatened with eviction from Crown property.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Once, Sir.
    Mr. Steward: Would the Minister reaffirm that it is his intention to use his powers of requisition, provided the local borough councils make the necessary application for this action to be taken?
    Mr. Macmillan: There was only one occasion when it was necessary, and the application for requisition was not issued because the landlord withdrew the notice to quit.
    Mr. Stewardasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will again draw the attention of local councils by circular to his powers of requisitioning under Defence Regulation 51 in order that tenants on Crown property may have a measure of protection against eviction.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: In view of the comparatively small number of local authorities affected by this problem I do not think that a general circular is appropriate, but I hope to make a statement shortly.
    Mr. Steward: Is the Minister aware that there have been instances in my constituency of dissatisfaction with the action taken by the local borough council?
    Mr. Macmillan: My hon. Friend will appreciate that there will very soon be an opportunity for a general statement in the ordinary course of the business of the House.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not a fact that by Circular 23/52, published on 19th February, the right hon. Gentleman instructed local authorities not to requisition any further properties?
    Mr. Macmillan: That is a different question. This is a matter of Crown lands.

    Price Control
    Mr. F. J. Errollasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will give an early indication of the Government's intentions in regard to the control of house selling price, provided for in Section 43 of the Housing Act, 1949, which expires in 1953; and if he will take action as soon as possible in this matter.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am watching the situation carefully and will take action as soon as it seems expedient to do so.
    Mr. Erroll: While the Minister is watching the situation, will he bear in mind the very genuine hardship which is caused to people who have put up a house at their own expense and have then had to move to another district, by reason of their having to sell their house and use the proceeds to buy a secondhand house at a very much higher price?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir, that is true; but so long as there is a high demand and a comparatively short supply I think that we must keep some protection, and as this does not expire for another 18 months I do not think that I need act immediately.

    Aircraft Industry Workers
    Air Commodore A. V. Harveyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many houses have been constructed, and how many licences have been given, for houses to be built adjacent to factories connected with the aircraft industry since 1st January, 1951.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I regret that the information is not available and could not readily be obtained.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Will my right hon. Friend go further into this matter and bear in mind that if progress is to be made in constructing aircraft in this country, houses have to be provided for the workers?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir. We are, of course, in touch with the Ministry of Supply all the time, but I am afraid I cannot give the precise information required.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Cannot the Minister of Supply give the information, because surely it is important when we have a large re-armament programme on hand?

    Lambeth
    Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Liptonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government why his 1952 provisional housing allocation to Lambeth was only 50.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: At the end of 1951, the Lambeth Borough Council had been given approval to tender for 586 dwellings the construction of which had not begun. I see no object in giving a larger instalment until some progress can be made with these. If there are any special difficulties my regional officer and I will be glad to help in any way we can.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of last year's housing allocations are held up through his inability to help the council to get the steel required, and will he also agree that it is quite ridiculous to give a provisional allocation of 50 when in his own Department there has been lying an application for long-sanction in respect of 103 dwellings, included in the 586 to which he referred, which has not yet been granted?
    Mr. Macmillan: As there are 586 which are to be put up for tender, there is not much object in making an addition.

    Contract Payments
    The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
    Mr. WALKER-SMITH: To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has yet come to any

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    conclusion as to the principles on which Parts VI and VII of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, should be amended;
    Mr. WALKER-SMITH: To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is aware that in many cases local housing authorities are very slow in paying builders for work completed under housing contracts; and whether he will issue a circular with a view to accelerating these payments.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Walker-Smith—Question No. 27.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am about to seek the views of the Association of local authorities on proposals for overcoming this and similar difficulties arising out of present contract procedure.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that in this matter time is not on his side by reason of the fact that owing to the ill-conceived legislation of the previous administration—
    Mr. Donnelly: On a point of order. Do I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the right hon. Gentleman has answered Question No. 28?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am afraid that I answered Question No. 28 in mistake for Question No. 27. No doubt the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question to Question No. 27 will be just as apposite.
    The answer is as follows:
    No, Sir. As hon. Members are aware, a review of the financial provisions of the Act is in progress. Until that is complete I regret that I cannot make any statement.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: On a point of order. May I at this point seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker. Would it be in order for me to take as read the supplementary question to No. 27 which I inadvertently put to No. 28, and for me now to put my supplementary question to No. 28.
    Mr. Speaker: So far as I know, the hon. Member has not yet asked No. 28 but the answer has been given.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Owing to the noise, Mr. Speaker, I was not able to hear your Ruling as to which Question we are now on.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member can take it that he has asked Question No. 28, and if he has a supplementary question to put to the answer which he received to Question No. 27 he can ask it.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: In regard to Question No. 27, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the impediment to housing and other desirable development by reason of the uncertainty in regard to the amendment of the financial provisions of this Act. In regard to Question No. 28, does my right hon. Friend appreciate that these are matters of contract between the local authorities and the builders and, therefore, there can be no reason for delay in this way.
    Mr. Macmillan: I will do my best to see to it.
    Mr. Donnelly: On a point of order. Would it be in order to ask a supplementary question on Question No. 27?
    Mr. Speaker: It would be quite in order to do so if we had not passed on. This is such a tangled affair that we had better pass on.

    Fuel Economy Appliances
    Mr. Gerald Nabarroasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will introduce legislation to enable him to require the installation of only approved domestic fuel economising appliances in all new housing construction and what steps he is taking to substitute, where practicable, in such new housing construction, approved gas space-heating appliances instead of electric space-heating appliances.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 19th February to the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton).
    Mr. Nabarro: Can my right hon. Friend say unequivocally that all new houses being built—100 per cent. of new housing construction, whether for private sale or for local authority letting—now have installed in them only modern appliances in the way of solid fuel-burning grates?
    Mr. Macmillan: We do everything we can by advice and persuasion, but we still

    927
    believe in the freedom of the local authority to accept that advice, and I should prefer to work under that system.
    Mr. Shinwell: While we ought not to impinge on the rights of local authorities in this and other matters, is there not something to be said for Government action as regards the provision of modern fuel appliances in order to economise in fuel?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir. It is being done and it is working very successfully, but I would rather get 97 per cent. without compulsion than 100 per cent. with compulsion.
    Mr. Nabarro: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the answer that he gave on 19th February—I have a copy of it here —makes no reference whatever to the second part of my Question which specifically inquires in regard to the installation of gas space-heating appliances in preference to electric space-heating appliances?
    Mr. Macmillan: If the object of the Question is to suggest that I should advise people to have a gas space-heating appliance instead of an electric space-heating appliance, I do not propose to do that.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the increased supplies of iron and steel for improved domestic stoves and grates are maintained at the level which was agreed last autumn?
    Mr. Macmillan: We are doing everything we can in this matter. I am naturally as anxious as the right hon. Gentleman is, but I am not anxious to apply compulsion if I can obtain the results by persuasion. I feel certain that the supplies can be maintained, and I think we may even add to them.

    Wage Increases (Costs)
    Mr. Walker-Smithasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the anticipated average increase in the cost of a three-bedroomed local authority house arising from the recent wage increases to building trades operatives.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Any effect of wage increases on costs cannot be estimated in isolation, since costs are affected by other
    928
    factors such for example as reductions in man-hours due to increased productivity and improvements in building technique.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any definite steps are in contemplation to offset the necessary increase in costs which will arise from the wage increase?
    Mr. Macmillan: I believe that all the measures which have been taken to increase interest in, and the tempo of housing and building will have that effect, and there are special measures to introduce various economies in construction and design.
    Mr. C. W. Gibson: Is not one of the greatest causes of the increased cost of building the cost of building materials? What is the Minister doing to bring down the price which "The Times" the other day referred to as the greatest rise in building material costs since the end of the war?
    Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends are always complaining about rises in costs and they are always attacking every Measure, monetary and otherwise, which is intended to reduce them.

    No. 115, Ebury Street, S.W/
    Mr. George Jegerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government the total amount of building work now proceeding at No. 115, Ebury Street, S.W.1; what building licences have been granted; and to whom.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Two licences have been issued within the past twelve months in respect of this property: one for £810 on 3rd July to form a self-contained flat on the second floor, the other for £3,099 on 24th October for the repair and general reconditioning of the property. Both were issued by Westminster City Council to Mr. Godfrey Winn.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the Minister aware that each of these licences was issued for work to be done which diminished the number of tenants who could live in that house; that prior to the licences being issued there were a number of flats occupied there; that Mr. Godfrey Winn obtained that licence in order to turn the house into a one-man occupied house rather than a house occupied by several tenants; and

    929
    would not the right hon. Gentleman exercise greater supervision over the issue of licences in order to prevent the diminishing numbers occupying a house?
    Mr. Macmillan: My information does not quite tally with that of the hon. Member's. I understand that part of the licence was for the making of an office. In any case, I do not interfere generally with a local authority in these licensing matters. Even if I wished to do so, one of these licences was issued six months before I took office and the other two days before I took office, so I do not see what I could do.
    Mr. W. Nally: Irrespective of the date upon which these licences were issued, would the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the purpose of the licences, which were fairly extensive, was actually to increase or to decrease the living accommodation of these premises, because even with the Westminster City Council—and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to agree with this—it would be extraordinary if these building licences were granted with the object of actually reducing living accommodation?

    Building Standards
    Mr. Gibsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will, in order to maintain good standards of house building, make compulsory as a minimum standard the general specification laid down by the National Householders' Registration Council referred to in the appendix to circular 73/51 issued by him on 27th November last.
    Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir. I have no evidence that the present arrangements are inadequate.
    Mr. Gibson: Is the Minister aware that unless he lays down a minimum specification for the 50 per cent. of the houses which are to be built under private enterprise he stands a very good risk of getting those jerry built houses such as we had before the war?
    Mr. Macmillan: I thought there was a general agreement that the system of the National Housebuilders Registration Council worked extremely well.
    Mr. Gibson: Is it not a fact that the Council's recommendations are purely voluntary and in no way binding on anybody?
    Mr. Macmillan: In spite of this passion for compulsion which hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to have, if everything is voluntary and operates over the whole field I think it is a very good plan.

    Estate Agents (Registration Fees)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the practice of some estate agents who take considerable sums in registration fees without at the time having accommodation of the type required on their books; and if he will introduce legislation to prohibit estate agents charging registration fees in respect of types of accommodation not at the time on their books.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I have no information about the practice to which the hon. Members refers. The Government cannot undertake to introduce legislation with regard to it.
    Mr. Beswick: Does that mean that the Minister did not read the evidence I submitted to him before his secretary returned it to me?
    Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir, it means we have quite a heavy legislative programme and we cannot introduce a Bill about it.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not a fact that I sent evidence to the right hon. Gentleman of a practice which amounts to absolute racketeering, the knowledge of which is known to many people on both sides of the House, and even if the right hon. Gentleman cannot provide housing accommodation, at least he can stop the exploitation of home-seeking people until such times as he provides houses for them?
    Mr. Macmillan: It is difficult to try and answer courteously in view of the way in which the hon. Gentleman asked his supplementary question, but this matter is very difficult and cannot be dealt with without legislation. There is a very heavy legislative programme, and it will not be possible to obtain an opportunity of dealing with it at any rate in this Session.
    Mr. Vane: Is the Minister aware that the practice complained of is entirely contrary to the code of conduct and practice of all the senior professional associations, and that any hon. Member who wishes to avoid being caught like the hon. Member has only to refrain from giving his business to a bucket shop?

    Loans
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the amount of loan sanctioned for housing development by local authorities since 7th November, 1951; what is the estimated increase in the total amount of interest repayments to be made as a result of the rise in the interest rate from 3 per cent.; and what is the increased cost per average dwelling disregarding all subsidies.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: The amount is £79,198,200. All these loans have, however, not yet been taken up from the Public Works Loan Board, and I am not able, therefore, to give the information asked for in the second and third parts of the Question.
    Mr. Sparks: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance to the House that the increases in interest rates to be borne by local authorities will, in fact, be refunded by him in the shape of increased subsidies; and secondly, would it not be a better administrative economy, instead of one Government Department increasing the rate of interest to local authorities and another one refunding that rate of interest to the local authorities, if the Public Works Loan Board was requested to advance housing loans at the original rate of interest? Would it not save a lot of time and effort?
    Mr. Macmillan: We shall have an opportunity of debating this whole matter in the near future, and perhaps it would be better to wait until the Bill is introduced.

    Unoccupied Dwellings
    Mr. J. Hallasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government the number of vacant houses there are throughout the country; and whether he will take action to prevent houses from standing empty for long periods by drawing the attention of local authorities, by circular, to the powers of requisitioning in order to allocate them to people in need of accommodation.
    Mr. George Chetwyndasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will empower local authorities to take over under-occupied private dwellings in order to rehouse families in urgent need and prevent sale with vacant possession at excessive prices.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I regret that I am unable to give the information asked for. Local authorities already have powers to acquire houses for the discharge of their duties under the Housing Act, and I think that where necessary those powers, and not those of requisitioning, should be used.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the Minister say how he expects local authorities to respond to his appeal to rehouse in bungalows families living in houses which are too large for them, unless the private landlord is willing to take people from the local authority lists instead of waiting to sell the house with vacant possession at extortionate prices?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am asked in this Question to state the powers of local authorities in this matter, and I have stated in reply that the local authorities have power to acquire these houses.
    Mr. Chetwynd: In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Sowerby
    Mr. Douglas Houghtonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is aware that the additional cost of site works, due to difficult site, is £151 11 s. 4d. per house for 64 houses on the Banksfields Estate, Mytholmroyd, and £293 12s. 10d. per house for 20 houses at Dodd Naze Estate, Hebden Bridge, both in the Sowerby Division of Yorkshire; and whether he will consider this unavoidable and additional burden on local housing costs when he comes to review the housing subsidies.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I have been informed by the local authority that costs above the normal to the amount stated have been incurred on site works in connection with these houses. As regards the second party of the Question, the point has been considered in connection with the review of housing subsidies.

    WATER SCHEMES (STEEL ALLOCATIONS)
    Mr. Stephen Swinglerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many licences for the supply of steel, and for how much steel, have been granted to water authorities for the first quarter of 1952; what he estimates will be the respective figures for the second and third quarters of the year; and how these figures compare with those for 1951.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: It is not the practice to disclose allocations for particular purposes.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister aware of the very grave concern of water undertakings because in many cases they have received only sufficient steel for the development of new housing estates and nothing at all for repairs and maintenance? Will he reconsider the question because many water undertakings are faced with a very serious position in regard to the repair of their undertakings?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Can the right hon. Gentleman state the principle on which the applications are being met? Is priority being given to those areas which at present have no piped water supply?
    Mr. Macmillan: I was asked to give allocations in certain instances. That has never been done by this or any other Government when there has been an allocation system. The purpose of an allocation system is to operate without the rigid priorities which led to so much trouble in the early stages of the war and to make the allocations for definite separate purposes and then to divide them up as best possible in the circumstances.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman now abandoning his party's pledges to the rural areas about water supplies?
    Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir; not at all.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is it not a fact that no licences have been issued for this purpose in the first quarter? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very serious
    934
    situation which is now arising in a constituency which he once represented because no licences have been granted to the Tees Valley Water Board?
    Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman's information is incorrect.
    Dr. Barnett Strossasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that many large schemes for the supply of water to power stations, coalmines and other vital industrial undertakings, are held up for relatively small quantities of steel; and if he will take steps to increase the supply of steel to water undertakers.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Yes, Sir. All possible steps will be taken.
    Dr. Stross: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the demand of the water undertakers for steel for the whole of the year is only 50,000 tons, one-third of 1 per cent. of our total supplies? Is it not well known in all parts of the House that these great undertakings are now seriously endangered and delayed?
    Mr. Macmillan: Of course they are most vitally important and I will do everything possible within the allocation system to obtain what is necessary; but one of the reasons for the allocation system was that, although everyone's application was fairly small, the total required amounted to rather more than the total amount of steel available.
    Dr. Stross: Will the right hon. Gentleman mobilise his courage and demand his rightful amount from the Cabinet?
    Mr. Macmillan: We do not do too badly.
    Mr. I. Mikardo: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is wrong in saying that it has never been the practice to disclose how much steel is allocated for a certain purpose? Although it has not been the practice to disclose the amount of an individual licence, have there not been a number of White Papers giving the global allocations?
    Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Member is incorrect and, anyway, that relates to the Question which we have just passed.
    Mr. G. R. Mitchison: On a point of order. I was about to ask a supplementary question about steel and rural water supplies when the question was interrupted, Mr. Speaker, by your calling the next Question. In those circumstances, is it in order to put the supplementary question after the next Question, as has just been done?
    Mr. Speaker: It is frequently my duty to interrupt the asking of a supplementary question by calling the next Question. Mr. Nabarro.

    GRAVEL PITS (LAND RESTORATION)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he is taking to require full and proper restoration of agricultural land used for sand and gravel pit working.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Planning authorities can insist on restoration when giving permission for pits to be worked, but this is as a rule considered reasonable only if suitable filling material is available. General guidance on restoration was included in the Memorandum on the Control of Mineral Working published a year ago, but the special problems of gravel pits are being examined by the Advisory Committee on Sand and Gravel.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the extent of urban depredation of good agricultural land which is at present taking place, aggravated by this problem? Will my right hon. Friend take special powers or at least examine the problem further?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir. It is being examined by the special committee.
    Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: In view of the great success of the restoration of land worked for opencast coal—
    Mr. Nabarro: Nonsense!
    Mr. Noel-Baker:—and the very much greater area devastated by working for gravel and sand, will the right hon. Gentleman really give the subject his attention and get something done?

    NEW GOVERNMENT OFFICES
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in view of the housing shortage, he will take steps to stop large-scale building for Government offices and nationalised industries, particulars of which have been sent to him.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: A general ban on new office building, including offices for Government Departments and the nationalised industries, has been in force since June, 1951.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will my right hon. Friend convey the idea of this Question to the Minister of Works and realise that homes are more important for people than for bureaucrats?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir, that is the object of the ban.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. C. R. Attlee: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make on business?
The Minister of Health (Mr. Harry Crookshank): Yes, Sir. In addition to the business already announced for consideration tomorrow, Wednesday, we shall ask the House to take the following business which was postponed last night; that is to say, the Committee and remaining stages of the Agriculture (Fertilisers) Bill, the adjourned debate on Second Reading of the Exports Guarantees Bill, and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Mr. Attlee: If essential business is to be taken after the announced business, is there to be a suspension of the Rule?
Mr. Crookshank: Yes, Sir. After the buiness which has been announced, if we take the Licensed Premises in New Towns Bill, and the Money Resolution in Committee, that will involve asking the House to suspend the Rule
Mr. Attlee: Is the Budget still on for 11th March?
Mr. Thomas Williams: May I ask the Leader of the House, seeing that there was no serious opposition to the general principle of Second Reading of the

937
Agriculture (Fertilisers) Bill, whether he thinks it is decent to ask the Opposition to sit after 10 o'clock to deal with the Bill tomorrow night?
Mr. Crookshank: We all agreed to take it last night, and it was only out of consideration for the convenience of the House that we did not carry on the debate in the early hours of this morning.
Mr. Williams: Is there any reason, since the Committee stage, Report stage and Third Reading were put down yesterday for 7 p.m., why they could not be put down for 7 p.m. at a later date?
Mr. Crookshank: I have already explained to the right hon. Gentleman that we intended and hoped to get these yesterday, as they were agreed business. Unfortunately, other events intervened over which I had no control. Instead of continuing in the early hours of the morning, we thought that it would be more convenient for everybody concerned to take the business tomorrow. That is all
Mr. George Brown: Is not the Leader of the House aware that this is a Bill covering an expenditure of something above £50 million if all the powers are used, and that there were several pages of Amendments on the Paper? Does he think it is proper that they should be taken after ten o'clock. Is that treating the taxpayer, the agricultural industry or this House with the courtesy they ought to have?
Mr. Crookshank: It is treating everybody quite fairly. Not only is the Bill vitally important to the agricultural industry, but it is vitally important to get the Bill through and on to the Statute Book as soon as possible in this financial year.
Mr. Brown: The Budget has already been put back for one week. Why is it necessary to force this Bill through after 10 p.m. on Wednesday? Why could it not have been discussed during the week which was to have been occupied with Budget discussions?
Mr. Crookshank: The right hon. Gentleman has held office in the Ministry of Agriculture and he realises the urgency of the Bill. I think he has been long enough in the House to realise also that in March a great deal of necessary financial business has to be got through, by
938
statute, before the end of the financial year.
Mr. Geoffrey Bing: In view of the statement by the President of the Board of Trade about the Export Guarantees Bill, which affects the whole trade of this country, will not the Leader of the House follow the precedent set by the late Government of always putting down the Export Guarantee Bill as the first Order of the Day, to give the House a real opportunity of discussing the serious issues which are raised by it?
Mr. Crookshank: We did have a very good opportunity the other day, but the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke towards the end of the debate and did not enable us to get the Bill on that afternoon.
Mr. Bing: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that not one of his hon. Friends, who always make a point of speaking on that Measure, was called on that occasion, from lack of time? Is he not going to give them another opportunity? Does he not realise that by taking the Bill as proposed he will only postpone the inevitable debate to the Committee stage of the Measure? Will he undertake to give us a day for the Committee stage?

ROYAL COMMISSION ON TAXATION (CHAIRMANSHIP)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
VISCOUNT HINCHINGBROOKE: To ask the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about the chairmanship of the Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Is the Prime Minister to make a statement in reply to Question 47, about the Chairmanship of the Royal Commission on Taxation?
The Prime Minister: If there is a particular desire that I should make this statement, and you, Mr. Speaker, give your permission, I shall be very glad to do so. The reply is as follows:
On his appointment as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary Lord Cohen was unable, by reason of his judicial duties, to continue to serve as Chairman of the Commission. The Queen has been

939
pleased to approve the appointment of Lord Waverley as Chairman in succession to Lord Cohen. An opportunity has been taken by Her Majesty's Government to make an amendment in the terms of reference. The revised terms will be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Mr. J. Millard Tucker, Q.C., will act as Vice-Chairman of the Commission.
Following are the revised terms of reference:
To inquire into the present system of taxation of profits and income, including its incidence and effects, with particular reference to the taxation of business profits and the taxation of salaries and wages: to consider whether for the purposes of the national economy the present system is the best way of raising the required revenue from the taxation of profits and income, due regard being paid to the points of view of the taxpayer and of the Exchequer: to consider the present system of personal allowances, reliefs and rates of tax as a means of distributing the tax burden fairly among the individual members of the community: to make recommendations bearing in mind that in the present financial situation it may be necessary to maintain the revenue from profits and income: and, in so far as they make recommendations which would on balance entail a substantial loss of revenue, to indicate an order of priority in which such recommendations should be taken into consideration.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is the Prime Minister aware that his announcement will be greeted with the greatest satisfaction throughout the entire business community?
Mr. Gaitskell: Does the Prime Minister realise how important it is that the Chairman of this Royal Commission should be a man of acknowledged impartiality, of no political bias and accustomed to the exercise of judicial functions? Does he further realise that Sir Stafford Cripps had precisely those considerations in mind when he invited Lord Cohen to be Chairman of the Royal Commission? Does he also realise that Lord Waverley, of whose distinguished career we are all aware, has shown by his political speeches and by his bearing in the 1945–50 House of Commons, that he holds strong political opinions—[An HON. MEMBER: "He is patriotic."]—corresponding broadly to the right wing of the Conservative Party and is therefore quite unsuited to fill this post? The fact that the Prime Minister has recommended to Her Majesty that he should
940
be appointed only shows that the Government are determined to influence the conclusions of this Commission for their own party advantage.
The Prime Minister: The diatribe to which we have just listened is of such a character that it warrants no answer except in debate.
Mr. E. Shinwell: In order to demonstrate that Lord Waverley will have time to undertake this very important task, particularly in view of what the Prime Minister said about Lord Cohen not being able to perform it because of his judicial duties, would the right hon. Gentleman publish a list of the directorships held by Lord Waverley and the number of his public offices?
The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I see no reason to take that step.
Mr. Speaker rose—
Mr. Douglas Jay: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is not this a matter of great public interest and may we not, therefore, have a few minutes in which to ask supplementary questions?
Mr. Speaker: We have not the time to enter into a discussion on a question of such importance.
Mr. Gaitskell: In view of what the Prime Minister has said, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he will make time for a debate on this important subject?
Mr. Crookshank: The answer to that, so far as the Government are concerned, is "No"; but, of course, there are certain opportunities open to the Opposition.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: Is there not another important matter which arises? Is it not correct that Lord Waverley holds a position which, while it is not a Government appointment, is a public appointment carrying a substantial salary? Does he intend to resign his appointment with the Port of London Authority while he is Chairman of this Commission?
The Prime Minister: All these matters were carefully considered.
Mr. Speaker: Every question asked and every answer given merely confirms me in my belief that this is too big a

941
question to argue at the present time. I do say to hon. Members, and I give it as my Ruling, that if the House wishes to debate this matter, it must find another opportunity.
Mr. Jay: On a point of order—
Mr. Speaker: No point of order is involved; we cannot discuss this.

CORONATION STONE
The Prime Minister: I should like, with permission, to make a statement about the Coronation Stone.
For over 650 years the Stone has been in Westminster Abbey and, from its use at successive Coronations, it has a historic significance for all countries in the Commonwealth. With the approval of Her Majesty's Government, the Stone has been restored to its traditional place.
An Hon. Member: Where is that?
Mr. Hector McNeil: Am I right in assuming that, since the Prime Minister is aware of the great importance that various sections of opinion in Scotland attach to this subject, he considered all these varying viewpoints and that, before making this recommendation, he consulted representative opinion in Scotland? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] May I press the Prime Minister for an answer? It is very relevant.
The Prime Minister: I think all proper consultations were made, and, as far as we were able to ascertain, the course we have taken is the right and proper one.
Mr. McNeil: I do not think I am being anything but relevant in asking the Prime Minister when these consultations took place and with whom.
The Prime Minister: I cannot say when every single consultation took place, but the matter has been most carefully and most properly considered.
Mr. McNeil: May I press for just the tiniest civil answer? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us one consultation that took place?
The Prime Minister: I have had several consultations myself with important authorities.
Lieut.-Colonel Walter Elliot: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the statement just made will give widespread pleasure in Scotland, and that whatever differences—[HON. MEMBERS: "You are reading it."]—
Mr. William Hamilton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman permitted to read out what purports to be a supplementary question?
Mr. Speaker: I cannot see from here whether the right hon. and gallant Member is reading or not.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I have been accused of many things but never of not being able to speak impromptu in the House. I am asking whether—[Interruption.] I have been taking notes, because this is a matter of great importance
Mr. Hamilton rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must ask the House to deal with this matter more decorously.
Mr. Hamilton: On a point of order. Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman entitled to use notes when putting a supplementary question.
Mr. Speaker: The answer is yes.
Mr. George Porter: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, if your Ruling is that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is entitled to use notes, then are we entitled to know—[HON. MEMBERS: "Take your hands out of your pockets."] We have all the afternoon in front of us. Mr. Speaker, in view of your Ruling that an hon. Member is entitled to use notes, are we entitled to know how the right hon. and gallant Member can have notes in reference to a matter which he did not know was coming up?
Mr. Speaker: Either the right hon. and gallant Member foresaw this or he was in receipt of advance information.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I have as much right to have intelligent anticipation of what is coming up as—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order. I want to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is in order for the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) to persist in making observations upon a matter which is sub judice.
Mr. Speaker: I have no information that this is sub judice. We are having an enjoyable time over this, but we should remember that we have other business. I must ask the House to give order.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I would ask further whether my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.] I have as much right to know beforehand as the previous Secretary of State for Scotland, who has also put a supplementary question. I say that this is a matter of great importance to Scotland, and I am asking whether my right hon. Friend is aware that, in spite of any previous differences of view as to the proper safe-keeping of this ancient symbol and object, everyone will agree that at the time of a forthcoming Coronation it could have no more fitting and proper place than the place to which the Head of the State has to come to take the Coronation Oath, in particular in view of the long and close connection which the Head of the State and Her Family have with the Kingdom and the nation of Scotland?
Mr. McNeil: In order to correct any possible misapprehension, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether there was any reputable Scottish opinion which did not dispute that the Coronation Stone should be in the Coronation Chair at the time of the Coronation, but which nevertheless thought that there were other fitting places where between times this Stone might reside?
The Prime Minister: I should be rather embarrassed if I had to declare what was and what was not reputable Scottish opinion. A great deal of Scottish opinion was consulted at the time, and I consider that we have acted in accordance with what is the wish of the great majority of the Scottish people.
Colonel Alan Gomme-Duncan rose—
Mr. Richard Adams: On a point of order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the Ruling you gave several minutes ago, that the question of the appointment of a Chairman to the Royal Commission on Taxation was far too big
944
and important to be discussed at present by means of questions, and whether the fact that you are permitting the discussion on the place of the Stone of Scotland is an indication that you consider that unimportant and worthy of discussion now?
Mr. Speaker: I considered that there did not seem to be the same division of opinion as regards the answer which the Prime Minister gave as to the immediate destination of the Stone; and although a lot of time has been spent on this matter, a lot of it has been consumed in noise without any questions being asked.
Colonel Gomme-Duncan: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that among a very considerable body of Her Majesty's most loyal Scottish subjects, there will be profound disappointment at this decision—[HON. MEMBERS: "The united party."]—and that whereas unanimously we wish the Stone to be used for the Coronation, as it should be, we think that it should be kept in the capital—Edinburgh—during the time between Coronations?
The Prime Minister rose—
Mr. Speaker: I now apply the previous Ruling. It seems that there is less unanimity in this matter than I thought, and I now rule that the House must find another opportunity of discussing this matter.
Another Member made and subscribed the Affirmation required by Law.

BILL PRESENTED
  NEW Towns BILL
  "to increase the amount of the advances which may be made under section twelve of the New Towns Act, 1946," presented by Mr. Harold Macmillan; supported by Mr. J. Stuart, Mr. Marples and Commander T. D. Galbraith; read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 60.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  3.55 p.m.
  Mr. Herbert Morrison: I beg to move,
  That this House takes note of the Foreign Secretary's statement, welcomes his adherence to the policy followed by the previous Administration of His late Majesty with regard to the Korean conflict and the relations between Great Britain and China, but regrets the Prime Minister's failure to give adequate expression to this policy in the course of his recent visit to the United States of America.
  This is a critical Motion, and it is particularly critical of the Prime Minister, but we have no wish to make of foreign affairs a wild party affair. We wish not to imitate the semi-hysteria of the former Opposition about Persia. Moreover, the state of the world is too serious for that. There is a good deal of aggression, some of it military and some of it political. It varies from place to place, and it is a dangerous world in which we live.
  For ourselves, we stand by the fundamental principles of foreign policy for which our late colleague, that great trade union leader, Ernest Bevin, stood. We believe in the United Nations, its Charter and its principles. We believe in the organisation of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. We believe in resistance to aggression, and we say that freedom needs all the friends that it can get.
  But we are genuinely disturbed about what happened in Washington, particularly as to the Far East. It was commented by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that the Prime Minister has spoken with two voices, one in London and one in the United States Congress. Neither voice, I am bound to say with my right hon. Friend, was wholly satisfactory. The Prime Minister's voice in both places was markedly different from that of the Foreign Secretary in the House of Commons on 5th February.
  It is not us alone who have noticed this dual voice, this different method of expression, and some difference of approach. It was, as my right hon. Friend indicated, noted by the "New York Times" in a leader of 31st January, which he quoted in the first day's debate, which in part said:
  "Prime Minister Churchill…like a good salesman with different customers he displayed his wares to their best advantage, first in Washington and then in London."
  946
  I now put to the House another quotation, which raises some serious points upon which we should like the comments of the Prime Minister. It is from an article by Mr. Joseph Newman, the well-known London correspondent of the "New York Herald-Tribune," of 5th February. Mr. Newman writes:
  "Members of Parliament and the British public in general, listening to Prime Minister Winston Churchill's denial that he had made any 'definite or formal commitments' to President Truman for action against Communist China if it breaks a truce in Korea, felt something like Alice when she picked up her looking glass book and read the poem Jabberwocky.'…"
  [An HON. MEMBER: "Read it out."] No, I am not going to. I am conscious of my limitations. [An HON. MEMBER: "The right hon. Gentleman ought to know it."] I tried it in private, but it would not work. There is some comment upon that famous poem, and Mr. Newman resumes:
  "Humpty-Dumpty eventually translated 'Jabberwocky' for Alice without any serious consequences, but about the worst thing that could happen to Mr. Churchill at the present moment would be for some official Humpty-Dumpty to appear on the scene to translate his denial of any 'definite or formal commitments' on China. This official could seriously damage Mr. Churchill's political position at home and destroy Britain's bi-partisan foreign policy. There are several officials in Washington apart from President Truman and Secretary of State Dean Acheson who can translate Mr. Churchill's words and one of Mr. Churchill's dearest hopes today must be that they refrain from playing the rôle of Humpty-Dumpty."
  We should like to know what the comment of the Prime Minister is upon that. It was the case that after the Congress speech there was a fairly universal assumption in the United States Press that the speech of the Prime Minister to Congress represented a major shift in British policy. We should also like to know whether that almost universal assumption of the Press of the United States of America was justified or not, or whether the Congress speech represented no change of policy at all.
  It is not only that apprehensions have been raised in our own country; apprehensions have been raised in the United States as well. The "New York Times" of 21st February reports of the proceedings of the House of Representatives of the United States Congress:
  "The House repudiated its Democratic leadership, its Foreign Affairs Committee and

  947
  the Administration itself. It adopted by a vote of 189 to 143 a resolution 'directing' Secretary of State Dean Acheson to come forward with full information as to whether President Truman had made any secret military commitments to Prime Minister Churchill of Britain in their consultations here in January."
  That is what the House of Representatives of the United States Congress is asking, and we in the House of Commons ask the same question with suitable British adaptations, and we expect to receive an answer.
  The truth is that conflicting cleverness on both sides of the Atlantic is, in our submission, dangerous. It is dangerous to peace and it is dangerous to good Anglo-American relations. It is far better to be clear and frank both with the Congress and with the British House of Commons, and the statement in the House of Commons on 30th January, made by the Prime Minister, was, in our view, woolly and evasive. Indeed, the Prime Minister had little desire to make the statement at all. He wished to hold it over until the debate began.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): Yes.
  Mr. Morrison: We had a right to know in advance what his report on the United States visit was. He has just confirmed that he would have preferred to make his statement at the beginning of the debate; but surely, when a great mission of this importance, headed by the Prime Minister, goes to America, and especially as the Prime Minister came back by sea, which gave him an opportunity to prepare a report, it was right that the House of Commons should have a report at the earliest practicable moment and that there should be reasonable time between that report and the debate in the House. It was a poor report, we believe, and it was not willingly made.
  The truth is that, from the point of view of the decision to undertake the visit at all, this was a somewhat rushed visit. The decision was made very soon after the right hon. Gentleman became Prime Minister, and I wonder whether there was adequate preparation for such a wide field of discussion. Moreover, it has to be remembered that this is Election year in the United States. It adds to the difficulties, with which the
  948
  right hon. Gentleman is familiar, because I well remember that in the War Cabinet there were difficulties on the occasion of the Election year, even during the Presidency of the late President Roosevelt. It is a difficult year in which to go at all, and it is liable to lead to complications in any case, because the parties are in some controversy and are adapting their decisions in readiness for the Presidential fight. Our war-time experience bears out the fact that there are difficulties.
  I am inclined to think that it was a doubtful mission, undertaken by the wrong man at the wrong time. He came back with very small results for our country—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—but with vaguely expressed and possibly grave commitments. He created a legacy of confusion and doubt on both sides of the Atlantic.
  I should like to know from the Prime Minister what was said about Japan and China, particularly regarding the intentions of Japan, now declared to have signed the Peace Treaty with Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and not with Communist China. We have heard the Foreign Secretary on this aspect of the matter, but we should like to have the Prime Minister's version as well, because we are not quite sure who is directing foreign affairs in the Foreign Office—the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister. Moreover, the "New York Times," on 26th January, contained the following report from Tokio, which conflicts with reports in other quarters, and I should like to know the truth of the matter. It declared that the Japanese Prime Minister
  "told the Japanese Parliament today"—
  that was, I think, 25th January—
  "that he had agreed to limited recognition of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek's régime on Formosa as the legitimate Government of China at the request of the United States. The British Government, which has diplomatic relations with the Chinese Communist Government on the mainland, raised no objection, he added."
  That is to say the Prime Minister of Japan added that the British Government had no objection.
  There are reports to the contrary and, indeed, the Foreign Secretary did make the observation that he and the Government had taken the line we had taken and had made it clear to the United States

  949
  that we did not agree with the Japanese decision. Therefore, we should like to hear the Prime Minister's version of the matter.
  The Labour Government discussed the Japanese Peace Treaty and the subsequent procedure with Mr. John Foster Dulles when he was here last year. The House will recall the dilemma of the two Chinese Governments. It was agreed between Mr. Dulles and myself, for, as it then was, His Majesty's Government—and my right hon. Friend the former Minister of State was present at the time—that Japan's future attitude towards China must necessarily be for determination by Japan itself in the exercise of the sovereignty and independent status contemplated by the Treaty. Indeed, I informed the House of Commons on 12th July:
  "A further difficulty has been the question of the Government entitled to commit the Chinese people to a peace treaty with Japan. This is a difficulty which has not been resolved. If a treaty is not to be indefinitely delayed, the only alternative has seemed to us to be that China should not be invited to sign the present treaty. The interests of the Chinese people are, however, safeguarded by the provisions in the draft which is being published today. Once the treaty has been signed and Japan becomes responsible for her own foreign relations, it will be for Japan herself to decide her future relations with China."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th July, 1952; Vol. 490, c. 631.]
  It was and is our wish that Japan should become a really democratic country associated with the peaceful, freedom-loving nations, and Mr. Dulles himself confirmed the agreement that Japan should decide for herself. Speaking at the San Francisco Peace Conference in September, he said that a possible course with regard to China might have been to have two peace treaties, each of which would be signed by one of the two Chinese Governments. He did not think that the Japanese Government would have agreed to this, however, adding that
  "to exert a compulsion in this matter would create resentment in Japan and it would activate and aggravate Allied division in the face of a grave world-wide menace which requires the maximum unity."
  He then said that, by deciding to exclude China from the Peace Conference, the Allies had
  "left China and Japan to make their own peace, on terms, however, which would guarantee the full protection of the rights and interests of China."
  950
  All this clearly meant that Japan should be free to decide the matter when she attained a sovereign and independent status; and that required that sufficient ratifications should be secured, which it is understood they have not, and certainly they had not at the material time.
  I have certainly no wish to use overcritical words about an important official representative of a great and friendly Power with whom I had pleasant relations, but I must tell the House what has since happened in Japan. I quote from the United States Congressional Record of 16th January, 1952, certain proceedings in the Senate relating to a letter of 24th December from the Prime Minister of Japan on the subject, addressed to Mr. Dulles.
  This is from the official record of the United States Senate which indicates what happened in Japan, and I think indicates how it was that the Japanese Prime Minister precipitately as I think—and on the substance of the matter necessarily one must, from our point of view, tend to think wrongly—but at any rate precipitately announced the intention of the Japanese Government as to which Chinese Government they would recognise. This is part of the proceedings. Mr. Sparkman, senator from Alabama, said:
  "I shall not take time to read the letter in full, Mr. President"—
  that is to say, the letter from the Japanese Prime Minister—
  "inasmuch as I shall ask that it be incorporated in the record as a part of my remarks, but I wish to call attention to the fact that in this letter the Prime Minister of Japan gives a positive assurance that his Government, as soon as it is legally possible, will enter into a treaty of peace with Nationalist China. That was a matter of considerable discussion during the time the Senator of New Jersey [Mr. Smith], Mr. Dulles and I were in Japan in December. As a matter of fact, I suppose it is the one item which arose more often than any other. Mr. President, this act on the part of the Prime Minister of Japan is an act of courage on his part, because there are many people in Japan, many in his own Government, who probably feel that this step should not be taken, certainly not unless the United States and Great Britain are able to present a united front in favour of such action. We know that this did not accord with the wishes of Great Britain. It does accord with the wish of the United States Government

  951
  which the Senator from New Jersey [Mr. Smith), Mr. Dulles and I did our best to make known to the Japanese Government and the Japanese people while we were in Japan."
  Then Mr. Senator Smith of New Jersey said:
  "The Senator from Alabama and I are members of the Far Eastern Sub-committee of the Committee on Foreign Relations and at the suggestion and invitation of Mr. Dulles we accompanied him to Japan, because we felt it was most important that our colleagues in the Senate should understand, when the Peace Treaty comes before the Senate for ratification, whether the new Japanese Government is going to recognise one Chinese Government or the other. The letter of the Japanese Prime Minister is an assurance that the new Japanese Government intends to enter into a Peace Treaty with Nationalist China and to reject any possible negotiations for recognition of Communist China.
  It seems to me from this to be clear that, contrary to our agreement that Japan should be free as to which Chinese Government she recognised when she became an independent and sovereign State, United States pressure was brought to bear on the Japanese Government to commit themselves in advance to the recognition of the Chiang Kai-shek administration. Because not only were there two Senators sent from the subcommittee, but Mr. Dulles was there, and Mr. Dulles is in charge of these matters in the State Department. Therefore, I think we ought to have a full statement as to what happened about this between the Prime Minister and, or the Foreign Secretary and the United States Government.
  I have only to add on this matter that since this the "New York Herald Tribune" of 30th January has published an article by the well-known columnists Joseph and Stewart Alsop giving, in my judgment, a most curious version of what happened in the London negotiations. It is a string of inaccuracies. For example, in the course of the article this statement is made:
  "The fact is that before Dulles left for Britain last June, to try to negotiate a Japanese treaty with the British, the Japanese Government had already made up its mind. Premier Yoshida had already signified that Japan would extend at least limited recognition to Chiang Kai-shek in Formosa. This act was perfectly well known to the British Foreign Office, of course including then British Foreign Minister Herbert Morrison."
  I wish to state categorically and clearly that this statement is not true. It is not
  952
  true of the British Foreign Office, and it is not true of myself. I do not wish to blame the two distinguished columnists from whom I have quoted. To my mind it is clear that the writers were mis-in-formed, or perhaps I should say mis-inspired. But this sort of experience and this sort of thing is not good for Anglo-American relations.
  Nobody is more anxious than we are, and I think it is generally true of the country as a whole, that our relations with the United States shall be cordial and good. But if Anglo-American relations are to be happy and healthy, and because we would wish that, we submit that we must speak to each other, we and the Americans, in friendship, on a basis of fraternal equality and with frankness.
  It is a great mistake to assume that the United States people or Government mind frankness, as long as it is combined with friendship and courtesy. When I was in Washington last September, addressing the National Press Club, I deliberately and publicly discussed our own recognition of Communist China, as distinct from the United States refusal to do so and its recognition of the Chiang Kai-shek regime. I discussed it with all its controversial implications. Also, on the matter of East-West trade in Europe, I put the British point of view on that, and it really is a service to both countries that each should put, politely and firmly but clearly, these differences of view.
  But the heavens did not fall, and there was no bitter quarrel about it. Indeed, it was taken in good part, as these things usually are, and I thought, therefore, that it is a mistake not to speak with each other—and it is a two-way traffic, because the same thing happens the other way round—in friendship and as between friends, but clearly, as to our respected views.
  But there is another view about this, and I think that the Prime Minister has another view as to the way in which we should talk, as between ourselves and the United States, at any rate, in public. In this House in a debate on exports to China on 10th May, 1951, he made a statement which contains a remarkable passage which is not good for Anglo-American relations. He said this:
  "Our advice to the Government"—
  that is, to the Labour Government—
  "is to stop rubber entirely now and to reach an agreement with the United States on the

  953
  general question of trade with China in a spirit which will make the United States feel that their cause is our cause, and that we mean at all costs to be good friends and Allies."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th May, 1951; Vol. 487. c. 2168.]
  I submit that, since the words "at all costs" are included, it means that there can be no independent British foreign policy. It means that we have drifted into a very serious state of affairs, and I quote that passage because I think that it did indicate the genuine belief of the right hon. Gentleman.
  Well, it did not matter when he was Leader of the Opposition, but it does matter much more now when he is Prime Minister. If we are to regard ourselves as satellites of the United States, or if we come to be regarded as satellites of the United States, or if we deceive the Americans as to our true convictions, our good relations with the United States will be spoilt, and we shall thereby stir up anti-Americanism here and anti-British feeling there, and we shall be playing the Communist game. Our relationships with the United States must be dignified relationships on both sides.
  I do not want to see us drift into an attitude of subservience which is bound to do harm to our good relationships in due course. Moreover, there was another sign of the mentality of the Prime Minister on these matters when, in his statement in this House on 30th January, he got confused as to who was conducting the negotiations with the Communist forces for the truce—the United States or the United Nations—and it is indicative of his frame of mind.
  We are all in this business of Korea. The Labour Government, I agree, with the support of the Opposition and the country as a whole, went into Korea, and we stay their loyally with our associates in this struggle, but we hope that a truce will soon come. It is perfectly true that the United States has made by far the biggest contribution in Korea, but that does not mean that we are to set ourselves aside or be involved in grave risks of widespread war without proper consultation and consideration.
  I believe that the United States Government is, in general, seeking to limit the war, and our business is to be helpful to the United States Administration in seeking to limit the war, but, as I shall show, there are some United States views in
  954
  favour of open, large-scale war against the Chinese Government which is recognised by the Government of the United Kingdom.
  The Foreign Secretary was wrong in denying this in the House of Commons on 5th February. He really was wrong in disputing that there were real elements of American opinion which were in favour of these policies. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]I will give way, if necessary. Is it denied that the Foreign Secretary said that? In that case, we had better have the quotation.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs denies it; he says it is not true, but this is what the Foreign Secretary said at col. 831 of HANSARD of 5th February:
  "If I am to judge by the criticism, there seems to be an impression in some quarters in this country—and this, I think, is at the heart of the matter—that the United States is not really sincere in its pursuit of the armistice negotiations—
  Mr. S. O. DAVIES (Merthyr Tydfil): A very strong impression."
  and I do not myself hold that view—
  "MR. EDEN: I am glad to deal with it—and even that she"—
  that is, the United States—
  "seeks an extension of the conflict in the Far East. I want to state my experience, that I heard no single word in any responsible quarter, while I was in America, to lend colour to this belief. I sincerely believe that the American Government and people—both of them—are as deeply anxious for peace in the Far East as we are ourselves."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 831–2.]
  In the first place, if hon. Members opposite say—I am going to quote more people in a minute—in advance that the distinguished Americans whom I wish to quote are irresponsible people who do not matter, let them say so, if they think that that sort of thing will improve Anglo-American relations. I do not treat these gentlemen with that contempt at all, and, moreover, when he says, as the Foreign Secretary did, I am sure in all good faith, that the American Government and people were all agreed as to the desirability of promoting peace in the Far East, there is more than one view in the United States about that, as I shall show.
  But, first of all, I wish to quote from the Prime Minister's statement here and his speech to the United States Congress passages which I think were likely to

  955
  encourage the very tendency among some prominent Americans which the British people would wish to discourage, since this kind of thing was not calculated to be helpful to the Government of the United States. Let us consider the evidence of the Administration which was given to the Congressional Committee of Inquiry into the dismissal of General MacArthur.
  The line taken by the American Government at that time was that it was most undesirable to extend the war in the Far East. It was in fact the line which was taken generally by the two Governments—our own Labour Government here and the American Government there. But the Prime Minister, speaking in an election year to Congress, conflicted in spirit with that evidence given to the Congressional Committee. I think that that was an unfortunate intervention.
  The Prime Minister's statement in the House of Commons on 30th January dealt with the question of the truce, and this was the statement he made. He said:
  The whole hypothetical question of what should be done, should a truce be made only to be broken, had been discussed before we left for America between the United Kingdom and the United States and the other Governments who have fighting forces in the field. It was agreed that clearly a very serious situation would arise in such an event as a breach of the truce; and various contingencies had been examined without any definite or formal commitments being entered into."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th January, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 198.]
  There was also the statement before the Congress—on page 5 of the White Paper which has been circulated—that:
  "We welcome your patience in the armistice negotiations and our two countries are agreed that, if the truce we seek is reached only to be broken our response will be prompt, resolute and effective. What I have learned over here convinces me that British and United States policy in the Far East will be marked by increasing harmony."
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Morrison: Let me ask some questions. I think the House is entitled to ask what is that policy to which the Prime Minister referred on which there is harmony between us and the Government of the United States. Moreover, it seems to me to be mischievous, irresponsible and foolish, when a truce is being negotiated under some difficulties, lasting
  956
  much longer than we like, goodness knows—I am not criticising the United Nations team in that respect—but negotiations are proceeding.
  The truce is not yet reached. Is it sensible, while the negotiations are proceeding, before the truce is reached, to try to throw a spanner into the works and say, "Even if a truce is reached we have also to prepare for that truce being dishonoured and broken by the other side?"
  That kind of talk is calculated to make it harder for the truce to be reached, and if the Prime Minister says to the Chinese, which, in effect, he did, "We have grave doubts as to whether you will honour the truce; you may make a truce and then break it," it is a provocative statement in itself and is quite likely to make the Chinese think we have some intention of breaking a truce and that we are preparing our defence in advance. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, certainly.
  Hon. Gentlemen really must get it into their heads that other people have their way of thinking as well as the British people have their way, and when we make statements concerning these delicate and important matters we have to try to think how other people's minds may work as a consequence of what is said. I think that that was a foolish, unwise and provocative statement, and was irresponsible and calculated to encourage people who take a point of view about these things which is different from ours.
  Therefore, we had better know what the policy is; we had better know what these contingencies were about which the Prime Minister was talking, if we can, because these are things which may commit our country. It is all very well to say that they were non-committal, and so on. So was Sir Edward Grey before the First World War; he was non-committal, too. If these things involve extending warlike operations we really ought to know more about them than we do at present. We should like to know what the policy was to which reference was made, what were the commitments before the United States visit and during that visit and what is the general position. And we had better know now what the answers are to these questions.

  957
  The first business of the United Nations representatives on the one hand and of the North Koreans and their Chinese associates on the other is to reach a truce which is as sound and successful as we can and then to negotiate, on the political level, a peace settlement that will bring this particular trouble to an end, and it is not the business of the British Prime Minister, in the middle of these truce negotiations to make statements which are calculated to make it difficult for them to go forward to a successful conclusion.
  We have to take into account some United States views as to open, large-scale war against China, and we have also to take into account in this House and on this side of the Atlantic the Prime Minister's background and his instincts in these matters, which ran through that Congress speech. There was no great and high appeal to the peoples of the world, including those of the Communist police States, and I think there ought to have been. These occasions ought not to be used merely for threats, innuendoes and attacks, they ought to be used also to try to lead the peoples of the world to better courses, including some of the peoples in police States, which can be done but which is difficult, over the heads of their own Governments.
  Let us look at some significant statements made by leading Americans in responsible positions, and notice has to be taken from what they say. My first quotation deals with the past but it has its significance and illustrates the dangers of election year. This is by Mr. Taft, who is a very distinguished member of the Republican Party, one of its leaders if not its most important leader, and a possible Presidential candidate, reported in the "New York Times" on 27th January:
  "Amid repeated applause, Senator Taft contended that the recall of General of the Army Douglas MacArthur as United Nations Commander 'apparently came from the fact that he wanted to win the war in Korea and the Administration did not want to win that war in Korea or to protect Formosa.' The Senator said he believed that MacArthur's policies of bombing and blockading and the use of (Chinese) Nationalist troops would have resulted in the consolidation of Korea and the setting up of a free Korea which might have been defended.' 'It is doubtful, however,' he said, 'whether today General MacArthur's
  958
  policies could be successful, because we no longer have control of the air over the Yalu River.'"
  There is a second quotation from Mr. Taft which appeared in the "New York Herald-Tribune," on 14th February. It reads:
  "Senator Robert A. Taft, Ohio, aspirant for the Republican Presidential nomination, said last night that the 'only chance to stop' an eventual military assault on the United States is a Chinese Nationalist invasion of Communist China.
  He said in a speech: 'The invasion, well organised, might snowball rapidly. Is there any other way to prevent Stalin from seizing all Asia and building up such massive strength that he will attempt finally an assault on the United States?'"
  It is fair to add that, later, Mr. Taft said that his observations were conditional upon a Chinese invasion of Indo-China. Whether or not that be so, we on this side cannot but regard such expressions as provocative and dangerous, and moreover, we ourselves have no faith in Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, either for his governmental administration or for his general record.
  But there is not only Mr. Taft. There is, again, Mr. Dulles, and he was reported in our British Conservative "Daily Telegraph" of 22nd January as follows:
  "Mr. Dulles, architect of the Japanese Peace Treaty, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee today, in asking for its ratification, that the United States must take positive steps to assure the downfall of the present Moscow-dominated Government of China. We cannot expect a change in China to take place automatically. To realise such a change will require something besides a negative and purely defensive policy in Asia on the part of the leaders of the free world, notably the United States. It will require determination to promote freedom and independence in Asia, and action consistent with that determination, as opportunities arise."
  The "Daily Telegraph" adds:
  "Mr. Dulles was not speaking for the State Department, but Mr. Acheson, Secretary of State, left the case for ratification largely to him, after supporting it briefly in general terms."
  There is a second quotation from Reuter of 12th February which reported:
  "The United States should not allow the mainland of China to remain under Chinese Communist control,' Mr. John Foster Dulles said in Washington on Sunday. Interviewed on a radio programme, the chief architect of the Japanese Peace Treaty and adviser to the Secretary of State demanded a foreign policy that would make it 'as tough as possible' for People's China. Mr. Dulles added that the

  959
  pressure of the Seventh United States Fleet between Formosa and the mainland of China is 'not normal.' 'It is not normal for us to dedicate U.S. forces to restrain our friendly allies,' he said, 'I do not think we need to use the Fleet to accomplish that result, or at least I think that is something we should look into,' Mr. Dulles stated. On future relations between China and Japan, Mr. Dulles said: 'I think in the long run you cannot keep an absolute barrier between Japan and the mainland—so we should change the character of the régime on the mainland'"
  I should like to know something in respect of this reference to Formosa and the situation there. It will be recalled that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, when he was Prime Minister, said that the Royal Navy would not participate in that operation, and it was, I understand, an American naval operation. I should like to know from the Prime Minister whether that declaration or undertaking still stands. Was that still clear as between the present Prime Minister and the President?—because he said something about Formosa in Congress, and I want to know whether there is any change or whether, on the other hand, he has run a risk of misleading Congress.
  It is fair to add that Mr. Dulles was careful to say that he was not speaking for the United States Government in that last extract, but it is no good calling him an irresponsible person. He is Ambassador at Large appointed by the President. He is the special adviser on Far Eastern affairs to the State Department, and, moreover, he is a possible Republican Secretary of State if there should be a change in the Administration. It is small wonder that the "Manchester Guardian," commenting on this statement by Mr. Dulles, said:
  "If Mr. Dulles is to be taken at his word, he is asking for an American Crusade against China, Russia, and all the satellite countries. He rules out every idea of limited agreement. Doubtless he would prefer a cold war. But could his type of crusade remain at the cold war level? In Britain those who wish to sow division between us and America have been saying that American policy was exactly what Mr. Dulles describes. Fortunately, the American Administration has different ideas from Mr. Dulles, but his words, unless he can explain that he has been misreported, will rightly cause much anxiety."
  That is an extract from the "Manchester Guardian" of 14th February. It is a serious state of affairs, and what I am wondering is whether the spirit of the
  960
  Prime Minister's observations in the United States rather released some of these declarations by men feeling that it would be acceptable to the British Government.
  The question about China is: ought we to assume that China is a permanent servile satellite of the Soviet Union and of the Cominform, even though China has a Communist Government? That was not the view of Mr. Ernest Bevin. It was not his view, and partly because he took that view the Labour Government recognised the People's Central Government and urged admittance of that Government to the United Nations. I personally agree with him and so do my hon. Friends on these benches.
  Indeed, the Prime Minister himself introduced the question whether China would permanently be of the political character that she is at the moment, because he, in a bright moment in his speech, introduced this degree of wisdom into his Congress speech, even though the rest of it was out of harmony with the passage which I will now quote. He said—and these are wise observations; it is a pity he did not live up to them—
  "The Chinese said of themselves several thousand years ago, 'China is a sea that salts all the waters that flow into it.' There is another Chinese saying about their country which is much more modern. It dates only from the Fourth Century. This is the saying: 'The tail of China is large, and will not be wagged.'"
  The Prime Minister added—and we can almost hear him saying it:
  "I like that one."
  There is wisdom in that. I want to be quite fair and give the Prime Minister the credit to which he is undoubtedly due for that quotation. But if that be true, that China is not necessarily a permanent associate of the Communist system, then why assume otherwise in the rest of the utterances? Why carry on in a spirit as if she was beyond the pale, which seems to me to be foolish indeed? It seems to us that he was acting and talking the other way. We ought not to try to push China the other way. China, it must be remembered, has a vast population—much bigger than the Soviet Union, bigger than the United States—
  Mr. M. Follick: Bigger than both together.
  Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend says, "Bigger than both together," and it may

  961
  well be so. She has a long history and she has her own traditions. She has her own psychology and characteristics, and I have met quite a number of businessmen with long knowledge and experience of China who have told me that they do not believe that China will permanently be an associate of the Cominform.
  We must resist aggression, but our business is not to build up a Chinese wall against us. It is not to do in China what the Prime Minister helped to do in the Soviet Union 30 years ago at the early part of the Soviet Revolution. It is not a sensible thing to do and, moreover, there is a Commonwealth aspect. India, with other countries of the Commonwealth, has a great part to play in the great world of Asia.
  We cannot always agree with each other about policy, India and ourselves. But the Labour Government achieved much, and the Indian Government achieved much, by way of Anglo-Indian co-operation and by way of understanding between ourselves, India, Pakistan and Ceylon. We wish that co-operation to continue, and we should never forget India's part in these matters and the help which she and those other countries can give in the relationships between ourselves and Asia and between themselves and Asia.
  Yet the only references to India and Pakistan by the Prime Minister were indiscreet and inappropriate. He said this old thing which is persistently nagging in his head:
  "After the war, unwisely as I contended, and certainly contrary to American advice, we accepted as normal debts nearly four thousand million pounds sterling of claims by countries we had protected from invasion, or had otherwise aided, instead of making counter-claims which would at least have reduced the bill to reasonable proportions."
  Why does he want to go out of his way to stir this up? He could not even carry the war Government with him on this doctrine. There was no agreement about it, and I say it was needless of him to go into that field and it was quite foolish to say what he did.
  There is another one. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We have put a Motion down and it is my duty to prove the case from the documentary records. Here is the old imperialism coming out again, as it did then. He said, as recorded on page 6:
  "Britain's power to influence the fortunes of the Middle East and guard it from aggression is far less today now that we have laid
  962
  aside our imperial responsibility for India and its armies."
  In the same old-style vein, he said, earlier:
  "In the Middle East enormous changes have also taken place since I was last in power in my own country."
  That is what he said. [HON. MEMBERS: "Abadan."] He continued:
  "When the war ended, the Western Nations were respected and predominant throughout these ancient lands, and there were quite a lot of people who had a good word to say about Great Britain."
  When will hon. Gentlemen opposite realise that they are living in a different world today? When will they realise that this persistent wish of the Prime Minister to get back to when the Western Powers were predominant over backward nations is a wrong conception? It is the imperialist conception. What we want is not to be predominant over these countries but to be friends and partners and co-operators with them. That is a much better conception.
  In both these matters we are apprehensive about the whole approach and background of the Prime Minister and his party. They do not face constructively the great changes in Asia and the Middle East. They do not understand the dangers of the poverty and ignorance in which a large proportion of humanity lives. That is why we said, last October, that peace was safer with us than it would be with the Conservatives. That is what we say—that peace was safer with the last Prime Minister than it is with the present Prime Minister.
  Colonel Alan Gomme-Duncan: Warmongering!
  Mr. Morrison: The hon. and gallant Gentleman will be relieved to know what I said. I will tell the House what I said —and this follows directly from what I have just been saying and from the imperialist attitude represented by the cheers of hon. Gentlemen opposite. This is what I said at the Labour Party Conference—and it will be quite clear that it is untrue to say that this was an accusation of warmongering. What I said was this—and it is on record and it is true:
  "I do not accuse the average Conservative of being a warmonger, of thirsting for the shedding of blood, of wishing to be involved needlessly in a world war."

  963
  This was on the eve of the Election, at the beginning of the Election campaign. I said:
  "I do not say that, and I advise you not to say that, because it would not be fair and it would not be true. But it is their temperament, it is the background of their mental outlook, the old imperialist outlook. It is the semihysteria"—
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] And here it is again—
  "of the bulk of those Tory back benchers that really alarms one as to what a Tory Government would do if a Tory Government were put in. Therefore, if the country wants peace it had better vote for the people who can most surely be relied upon to preserve peace, and, if I may say so, are most competent to frame principles and proposals for the peace and well-being of the world."
  Those people sit upon these benches. I have shown by the evidence which I have put to the House that the Prime Minister has tendencies which are contrary to modern understanding and the cause of peace, and that he is out-of-date. I say that what I said to the Labour Party Conference was then true, that what we said in a similar vein throughout the Election was true—and we say today that what we said at the beginning of the Election and during the Election has been proved to be true by the actions to which I have drawn attention today.
  5.0 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): When I learned the text of the Motion which has been put upon the Order Paper and saw that it took the unusual form of a personal Vote of Censure upon me I am bound to say that I did expect that some more serious attempt to frame and sustain charges would have been made than we have heard from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). I have hardly ever listened—from a skilled Parliamentarian—to such a weak, vague, wandering harangue which at no point touched the realities or which was so largely composed of quotations of all kinds, some of his own, and none selected with a view to proving or sustaining any effective case.
  I shall in due course—I hope I shall not too long detain the House—deal with the attack which is made upon me today, but if I had to confine myself
  964
  to those aspects of it which have been dealt on by the right hon. Gentleman I am bound to say I should find myself very short of material with which to reply.
  I wish, first of all, to draw the attention of the House to the agreement we reached in Washington about the atomic bomb. We reached an agreement about its not being used from the East Anglian base without British consent. This agreement states in a formal and public manner what had already been reached as a verbal understanding between the late Prime Minister and President Truman.
  We felt, however, that it would be an improvement if the position were made public and formal, and I expect that will be the general opinion. A much more important atomic development is now before us. I was not aware until I took office that not only had the Socialist Government made the atomic bomb as a matter of research, but that they had created at the expense of many scores of millions of pounds the important plant necessary for its regular production. This weapon will be tested in the course of the present year by agreement with the Australian Government at some suitable place in that continent.
  This achievement is certainly a real advantage to us and when I informed the Americans in Washington of the position which had been reached quite a new atmosphere was created on this subject. I was interested to read in the newspapers on Monday week the following statement by Senator MacMahon, the author of the MacMahon Act of 1946 which, under extreme penalties, forbade all sharing of secrets with Great Britain or other countries:
  "The achievement of an atomic explosion by Great Britain, when an accomplished fact, will contribute to the keeping of the peace because it will add to the free world's total deterring power.
  This event is likely to raise in still sharper focus the problem of atomic co-operation between ourselves and Great Britain. The British contributed heavily to our own war-time atomic project. But due to a series of unfortunate circumstances the nature of the agreements which made this contribution possible was not disclosed to me and my colleagues on the Senate special atomic energy committee at the time we framed the law in 1946. Now we may consider rethinking the entire situation with all the facts in front of us."

  965
  This is a very important declaration. We must now await the result of the experiment in Australia. While paying all credit to the late Government and their scientists for the action which they have taken I must, as an old Parliamentarian, express my surprise that a full and clear statement was not made of this policy to Parliament, especially in view of the immense sums of money which were voted by this House without their having any clear appreciation of what was being done. There was no reason why Parliament in time of peace should not have been made fully aware, not, of course, of the technical details, but of the large scale new departure in policy adopted on so grave a matter.
  The Conservative opposition would certainly have supported the Government, as we did on so many other of their measures of defence, and their majority would no doubt have been overwhelming. Nevertheless, they preferred to conceal this vast operation and its finances from the scrutiny of the House; not even obtaining a vote on the principle involved, while, at the same time, with Machiavellian art, keeping open the advantage of accusing their opponents of being warmongers.
  Mr. C. R. Attlee: I really cannot let those statements pass. We have carried on precisely the same policy on the advice of our experts and advisers with regard to the publicity of these atomic matters. I was ready at all times to see the right hon. Gentleman, and I always understood that his closest confidant, Lord Cherwell, was fully informed of all these matters. I do not know why he had not told me about it, and as for the Americans not knowing what we were doing, we were telling them every possible thing in order to get their co-operation.
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman will no doubt have various opportunities of making full statements upon all this topic, but it does seem to me that some of the late Government's followers hardly relished their success in this sphere. I notice, indeed, a certain sense of disappointment with the statement that the achievement which has been made could not be wholly attributed to us. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is in the position of one who "did good
  966
  by stealth and blushed to find it fame." Before the whole story passes from life into history he will have to do a good deal of blushing in the explanations which he will have to make to some of his followers.
  This remarkable episode is a good prelude to the argument I shall now deploy in reply to the new move in the Socialist warmongering accusation, of which the right hon. Gentleman's Motion is the latest expression. I am complimented by the fact that the official Opposition's Vote of Censure should concentrate its gravamen on me. It is not the first time I have incurred the wrath of the Socialist Party. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nor of the Tories."] I remember that in March, 1946, a Motion condemning a speech I made at Fulton was put on the Order Paper by just over 100 Socialist Members of Parliament, including seven who subsequently became Ministers. Here is the relevant part of the Motion:
  "That this House considers that proposals for a military alliance between the British Commonwealth and the United States of America for the purpose of combating the spread of Communism, such as were put forward in a speech at Fulton, Missouri, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford, are calculated to do injury to the good relations between Great Britain, the United States and the U.S.S.R., and are inimical to the cause of world peace.…"
  That Motion was never debated. On the contrary, the policy which I outlined at Fulton five years ago has since been effectively adopted both by the United States and by the Socialist Party. Two years later, by the Brussels Pact, and in the following year by the North Atlantic Treaty, the whole substance and purpose of what I said was adopted and enforced by the Socialist Government, and today we all respect the foresight and wise courage of the late Mr. Ernest Bevin in helping to bring those great changes about.
  Now, today, the Opposition have adopted a position of protestation that there should be no war with China. We agree with them about the importance of avoiding such a war, but I seem to have a recollection that there was some trouble about the Chinese going into Korea, which began 15 months ago, and that the Chinese Communists and their North Korean allies killed and wounded more than 100,000 Americans and nearly 3,000 of our own men, and that they lost themselves what has been estimated at over

  967
  1,250,000 killed and wounded. Even half that number would be quite a lot. One reads, too, in the papers every day about fighting that is going on even now with the Chinese.
  Apparently, however, according to the mentality of the Socialist Party, which only five months ago supported all this devastating struggle in Korea, nothing matters unless we call it "war." Apparently the important point is: What is it to be called? As long as it is not called "war" the high condition of moral idealism of the Socialist movement is in no way impaired.
  Hundreds of thousands of men may fall mangled and torn by bomb, bayonet, bullet or grenade; whole areas of Korea may be devastated in the advances and retreats of the opposing armies; 35,000 dead may be picked up in front of a single American division; our own men may have killed many times their number in deadly fighting; but, whatever happens, it must not be called "war." [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] It is not the fact, but it is the name that counts.
  What a strange political philosophy. "No war. Peace in our time"—that is what the Socialists said when they themselves were responsible, in conjunction with other nations, for using deadly modern weapons to share in the slaughter of a million or more Chinese and North Koreans. It is difficult to imagine such a process of self-delusion and mental obliquity.
  But whatever has been going on in Korea in the last 18 months is war, even though they choose to call it a "collective police operation"; and it is a war entered upon by the Socialist Government, and waged by them, side by side with other members of the United Nations. Since we have been in office the truce negotiations, begun eight months ago, have continued, and the slaughter of the Chinese has abated. A comparative calm rests on the blood-soaked front, and the Socialist Party can turn their energies, I have no doubt with a measure of relief, from being war wagers to calling other people warmongers.
  I made it plain a month ago, in my first speech on my return from America, that I was opposed to action that would involve us or our Allies of
  968
  the United Nations in a war in China. I drew the attention of the House to General Omar Bradley's statement which I will now quote exactly—[HON. MEMBERS: "Another quotation."]—for I was not quite accurate before. Verify your quotations is a good maxim. This is the quotation:
  "We would be fighting the wrong nation in the wrong war and in the wrong place."
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew rose—
  The Prime Minister: We did not interrupt the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), who has just sat down, and I really must ask for an opportunity of unfolding my case. I must remind the House that I have never changed my opinion about the danger of our getting involved in China. When the Chinese first came into Korea, after the Russian-instigated attack by the North Koreans, I said in the House—[An HON. MEMBER: "Another quotation."] What did the hon. Gentleman say? Oh, I beg pardon. I thought it might have been an intelligent point. I said on 30th November, 1950:
  "The plan would evidently be to get the United States and the United Nations…involved as deeply as possible in China, and thus prevent the reinforcement of Europe and the building up of our defensive strength there to a point where it would be an effectual deterrent. It is one of the most well-known—almost hackneyed—strategical and tactical methods, to draw your opponent's resources to one part of the field and then, at the right moment, to strike in another. Military history shows countless examples of this and of variants of it. Surely, however, the United Nations should avoid by every means in their power becoming entangled inextricably in a war with China."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1335.]
  I have never departed from those views in any way, either publicly or privately. I also endeavoured when I spoke here a month ago to show the danger which was arising in Europe by the dispersion of so many British, American and French divisions in Asia as a result of acts of aggression which the Soviet Government had promoted without losing a single soldier in Russian uniform.
  This made it clear that I disagree profoundly with the kind of statements, some of which have been read to us this afternoon, which have recently been made in the United States by various

  969
  prominent Americans engaged in the impending Presidential Elections. I am not going to mention names. It is not for us to be drawn into American politics. Her Majesty's Government deal with the United States Government of the day, and with them our relations are very good indeed.
  But let me now give the House some account of what happened about Korea under the late Government, and also since we have become responsible. The reason why I have to use guarded language instead of simple facts is that if military action, like, for instance, bombing, were referred to precisely, it would reveal what had been agreed and might therefore expose British and American airmen to extra danger. There is nothing I should like better than that all the relevant documents on this subject should be published. But that is not possible while fighting is going on or may be resumed on a large scale.
  I will give the House the fullest account I can at this present time. On several occasions in the last year the United States asked the British Government what military action they would agree to if certain things happened. Questions were addressed to the late Government and later to Her Majesty's present advisers. On the first occasion in May of last year, before the truce negotiations began, the right hon. Gentleman the late Foreign Secretary replied to an inquiry that His Majesty's Government had decided that in the event of heavy air attacks from bases in China upon United Nations forces in Korea they would associate themselves with action not confined to Korea.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: On a point of order. Is the right hon. Gentleman quoting directly from Cabinet papers? If he is, then I move that the papers be laid. If, as I understand, the right hon. Gentleman is making references to discussions inside the previous Cabinet, then he is in order in doing so. If he is quoting, then he must lay the papers, and I so move.
  The Prime Minister: I am not quoting at all. I am carefully avoiding making any quotations on that account, but I am undoubtedly entitled in defence of our own position, which has been subjected to this shameful attack, to place the
  970
  House in possession of the facts as far as that can be done.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of order. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that some inquiry was addressed at some time by the American administration to the previous Government. Such an inquiry would presumably have been either in a document itself or, if the inquiry were made to the Cabinet, then in a document circulated to Ministers. Therefore, once the right hon. Gentleman has referred to such an inquiry he has by implication referred to a document. That being so, I ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether the House is not entitled either to have the document laid before it or to have the statement withdrawn?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew): The rule is that if a document is paraphrased, it does not require to be laid. If, on the other hand, it is quoted from, it must be laid unless it is against the public interest so to do.
  Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order. Once a thing is paraphrased, the paraphrase may be a comment, but the right hon. Gentleman did not do that. He referred to a specific question asked by one administration of another. That, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, is not a paraphrase.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I made the position perfectly clear. If a document is paraphrased it does not require to be laid. If it is quoted from, it should be laid unless it is against the public interest so to do.
  Mr. Bevan: If it is against the public interest so to do, it is against the public interest to make reference to it. May I respectfully submit to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that my first recollection of an action of this sort was when the right hon. Gentleman made a quotation from a Cabinet document and was afterwards seriously chastised by the late Earl Lloyd George? It was on the occasion of the Stack assassination in Egypt, and the right hon. Gentleman had to come down to the House of Commons and apologise for quoting without permission from a Cabinet document.
  In my submission all parties in the House in this case are seriously handicapped, because it should be to the interest of every party to see that there is no

  971
  partisan disclosure of Cabinet papers unless the whole truth is made available. I ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to accept my Motion that the papers be laid.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: All I can do is to quote briefly from the Manual the exact words which are probably better than those I gave in my own language. It says:
  "If a Minister of the Crown quotes in the House a despatch or other state paper which has not been presented to the House, he ought to lay it on the table. This rule is analogous to the rule observed in courts of law against quoting documents which are not produced in evidence. It cannot be applied to private documents or to documents which are alleged by the Minister to be of such a nature that their production would be inconsistent with the public interest."
  Mr. Attlee: I certainly understood that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister was giving us the text of a dispatch. I think in that case and on all precedents that the whole of the document must be laid, and I submit that. I should like to know what we are having, whether this is some paraphrase or whether it is the actual dispatch because, after all, in fairness to the Government of the day, it is very easy to paraphrase things and to give them a twist. I should like to have the actual words.
  Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I can only deal with one point of order at a time. I was listening very carefully to what was said. I understood—and I was reinforced by the Prime Minister after the point of order was first raised—that he was paraphrasing and not quoting.
  Hon. Members: No!
  Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order. I respectfully submit that the Prime Minister did not say, and could not say, that he was paraphrasing. What he said, expressly, was that on 15th May, 1950, a certain question—which he quoted to us—was addressed by the American Administration to Mr. Ernest Bevin. By no possible twist of language can that be called a paraphrase.
  On the other point—as to whether it is in the public interest—I submit that the Prime Minister cannot possibly claim that
  972
  it is not in the public interest to disclose it, because he has already disclosed it. Therefore, since this is not a paraphrase and it is not claimed to be in the public interest that it is not right to disclose it, I submit that the conditions of the Standing Order have been fully satisfied and the House is entitled to the papers. I beg leave to second the Motion which the right hon. Gentleman moved.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It seems to me that that point is rather contradictory. If it has been quoted at all, it does not mean that it has all been quoted, and it may not be in the public interest to lay the paper before the House.
  Mr. Bevan: I understand from your quotation that the Manual makes no reference to a paraphrase.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Perhaps I have not read it very fully. If I quote from Erskine May I think the House may be satisfied. "A Minister who summarises" —I apologise to the hon. Member if I have used the wrong word.
  Mr. Bevan: Then, in my submission, that puts my Motion entirely in order, because whether the right hon. Gentleman was summarising, paraphrasing or referring to, it was to a State paper that he was making reference. Indeed, he identified it, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, by a date. In those circumstances, unless the right hon. Gentleman shelters behind the question of public interest—and if he did he ought not to have been so cowardly as to have mentioned it. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That Motion is not admissible in the middle of a speech.
  Hon. Members: Oh!
  The Prime Minister: I do not understand why there should be all this fear on the benches opposite.
  Mr. George Brown: We want it published.
  The Prime Minister: I have already pointed out that the previous Administration committed themselves to action not confined to Korea. I am not making a quotation. I am stating a fact.
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: Produce the document and prove it.
  The Prime Minister: The United States Government did not give an unqualified agreement to the views of the late Administration because they did not think that their views provided sufficiently for cases of extreme military urgency. Subject to this, however, there was agreement, and I am entitled to inform Parliament of the fact. It was agreed between the United States Government and the late Socialist Administration that in certain circumstances and contingencies action would be taken not confined to Korea. Only they wished, quite properly in my opinion, that they should be consulted beforehand—
  Mr. William Ross: Let us see it.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) had a perfectly quiet hearing and I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister might be allowed the same.
  The Prime Minister: I am stating the facts perfectly clearly, as you will see when they are all set forward. They will show how very little ground there is for hon. Gentlemen opposite making their slanderous accusations against us.
  In September last year the Americans proposed that in the event of a breakdown of the armistice talks and the resumption of large-scale fighting in Korea, certain action should be taken of a more limited character. These proposals were accepted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South and they were endorsed by the then Prime Minister. Whereas in May the right of prior consultation had been required by the late Government in the specific instance, before our consent could be assumed, in the more limited proposals of September the Socialist Government did not insist upon this right. In both cases Her Majesty's Government consider that the decision of our predecessors was right and, in my view, in both cases it justifies the words which I used in the United States Congress, namely "prompt, resolute and effective."
  Mr. H. Morrison: I presume that the right hon. Gentleman has got to the end of that part of his speech.
  The Prime Minister: No, I have not. I was coming to the change of Govern-
  974
  ment and what happened after that. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to say something now I shall gladly give way.
  Mr. Morrison: I was waiting until the right hon. Gentleman had got to the end of his observations on the attitude of the late Government. I am not crying about it, because neither my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition nor I, nor any Members of the late Government, have anything to be ashamed of—but I am bound to say that I think it is unusual, doubtful in taste and constitutional propriety, for the Prime Minister to delve into the papers of his predecessors—as to the principle of which there are well known constitutional rules—and then come here, not with a fair statement of what took place, but with a partisan version, adjusted to his own tactical needs and, when he is faced with a demand for papers, to hedge and evade, because of what he had done.
  As far as I am concerned—and I think I speak for my right hon. Friend—I am quite willing for the papers to be fairly laid; but the right hon. Gentleman is building up a precedent this afternoon for future administrations. There were long discussions with the United States about this and there is no analogy between what he is now discussing and what we were discussing earlier on. The whole point of the discussions to which he is now referring was what should be done in the case of our troops being attacked from the air from certain airfields. That is all. Obviously, from certain airfields—and it never went beyond that point—[HON. MEMBERS: "China."] If hon. Gentlemen opposite are quite incapable of listening, or are getting hysterical, I cannot help it.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker rose—
  Mr. Morrison: Certainly that was so—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easing-ton (Mr. Shinwell) will not wave to me to sit down when I stand up. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] I thought the right hon. Gentleman waved to me to sit down when I stood up. If he did not, I beg his pardon, but I understood that he did. In any case, I rose to ask whether the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South was making a second speech.
  Mr. Morrison: I am in the hands of the Chair, but when a practice of this kind is introduced I think I have the right to deal with it. I was about to finish. If I was standing up while you were on your feet, Sir Charles, and if that was the point of your complaint, I apologise. Had I seen you stand up I should certainly have sat down at once. I finish by saying this. The discussions earlier on had very wide demands which were resisted—
  Mr. John MacLeod: The right hon. Gentleman has made one speech.
  Mr. Morrison: Hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to be fair. It was confined later on to the point: "What do you do if you are attacked from airfields over the border?".
  Captain Charles Waterhouse: From China.
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, that is right. In principle, one cannot stand by in that case and do nothing whatever about it, but there was insistence at our end that every effort should be made to see that there was consultation, because people can go a little bit off the rails in believing that something has happened when in fact something has not happened. Therefore, we required prior consultation. But that limited and direct military point about something happening in the field of military activities is a wholly different thing from this other argument in favour of widespread war and invasion.
  Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. I do really submit to you now, Sir, that this position is becoming quite farcical without the papers. Here is a debate going on between the Prime Minister on one side and my right hon. Friend on the other about the effect of certain communications made a long time ago, and about whether it is fair or unfair to make a comparison between those matters and the matters we are now discussing. In that dispute the rest of the House is completely lost. We do not know what the argument is about.
  The whole purpose of the Standing Order to which reference has been made was always to prevent the House from being put in the ridiculous position of having to listen to a debate between two of its Members about matters of which
  976
  the rest of the House remained in ignorance. I say to you, Sir, that it is quite impossible to continue this debate in this way without the House having access to the documents to which both right hon. Gentlemen are referring.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I gave my Ruling perfectly clearly. I am of opinion that it was a summary which was made, and therefore the Prime Minister is quite in order.
  Mr. Silverman: How do you know it is a summary?
  Hon. Members: Shame! Withdraw.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not say I knew. I said in my opinion it was, and I am quite entitled to my opinion.
  Mr. Silverman: With great respect to you, Sir. You said that in your opinion this was a summary; and, indeed, it may well be so. What I am saying is that neither you nor any other Member of the House has any material whatever on which to form that or any other opinion.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Well, I have got my own opinion, and that is all I can go on in giving my Ruling.
  The Prime Minister: I do not know why there should be so much fear on the benches opposite.
  Mr. Crossman: Produce the papers.
  The Prime Minister: It is a mere recital—
  Mr. Silverman: Is the right hon. Gentleman afraid to produce the papers?
  The Prime Minister: It is a mere recital—
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: Is the right hon. Gentleman afraid to produce the papers?
  The Prime Minister: It is a mere recital of certain facts—
  Mr. James Hudson: On a point of order. Is the right hon. Gentleman in order in stating that there is fear on the part of my right hon. Friends when they have stated that they are willing to have published the documents about which the question has been raised? Has the right hon. Gentleman the right, under

  977
  your guidance, to make provocative remarks of that kind ascribing fear when he is not willing himself to have those documents examined?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If I could do anything to stop provocative remarks I certainly would, but they are in order.
  The Prime Minister: We now come in the narrative which I am giving Parliament to the change of Government in this country. The General Election took place and Her Majesty's present advisers became responsible. The question was put to us by the United States: What would happen if a truce were agreed upon and then treacherously broken by the Chinese, greatly to the loss and disadvantage of the United Nations' armies, and if heavy fighting were resumed on a large scale?
  This involves one hypothesis on top of another, and on the whole it does not seem very likely to happen, especially if, as we hope, peace negotiations follow the present truce. Nevertheless, when allies or members of a common body like the United Nations are working together, the one who bears nine-tenths of the burden may well ask the others what they would do in certain circumstances, and Her Majesty's present Government agreed that it would be prudent to make clear that serious consequences would follow the breach of the terms of an agreed truce.
  As I have already said today, and as I pointed out when I spoke a month ago, it is not possible, while military operations are going on, to state either positively or negatively exactly what those consequences might be. But let me make it clear that we conformed, in principle, to the policy of our predecessors. Indeed, in some respects it might be said that we did not commit ourselves even as far as they had done. Nevertheless, the action to which we agreed, like that of the Socialist Government before us, fully justified the description which I gave to Congress of being "prompt, resolute and effective." The dispatch in which our policy was set forth was approved by the Cabinet in December, and various communications were sent to other members of the Commonwealth. All this happened before my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I set out for Washington.
  978
  It is a fact that we did not discuss the matter further at any conferences in Washington with our American colleagues. They did not raise it, and we had received no answer to our reply. It is absolutely true therefore to say, as in the words of the Opposition Motion, that we adhered to the policy followed by the late Administration with regard to the Korean conflict and the relations between Great Britain and China. It is not true to say that I in any way departed from this position. There is no truth in the suggestion that any secret or private arrangements were made or any change of policy agreed upon, formally or informally, actual or implied, by me or my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, on these issues during our visit to the United States.
  Having told the House these facts, some of which evidently surprised them, let me come to the address which I was invited to deliver to the Congress of the United States. I am very glad that the House wished to have this document circulated to them and that it should have been examined with so much attention. I cherish the hope that it will be found, as time passes, not to have been injurious to British and American relations which are, of course, all-important to our survival here at home and to the part we can play in averting a Third World War.
  It is the design and intense desire of the Soviet Union and its satellites and all its associates and fellow-travellers in many lands to drive a wedge between the British and American democracies and everything which tends to consolidate the mighty forces of the English-speaking world, upon which the hopes of United Europe also depend. Anything that secures that unity must be considered a service not only to freedom but to peace.
  I must ask the indulgence of the House —if there is any of it left at the end of this statement, though I hope some of the excitement may wear off as we go along—to let me present the background in my mind to what I said to Congress, for which I have been criticised by the official spokesman of the Opposition, the late Foreign Secretary. It was certainly no easy task, in the present circumstances of bitterness here at home and during election year in the United States, to choose the points on which to dwell.

  979
  In July last, when I was a private person, a delegation of the American Senate, which had been sent round many countries, came to London, and during their visit they asked to see me, and I received them in my home. I was impressed by the fact that this powerful body was greatly disturbed by the anti-American feeling which they thought existed in the House of Commons. So I said to them, "Do not be misled. The anti-American elements in Parliament are only a quarter of the Labour Party, and the Labour Party is only a half of the House. Therefore, you may say that one-eighth at the outside, give vent to anti-American sentiments. The Labour Party as a whole, and the Government of the day, supported by the Conservative Party in this matter, are whole-heartedly friendly to the United States, and recognise and are grateful for the part they are playing in the world and of the help they have given to us."
  This was the message which I tried to give to Congress when I spoke, and in so doing I felt I was speaking—I hoped I was speaking—for the great majority of the present Parliament. Today, however, I must say that the attitude of a fraction of the late House of Commons and apparently of a larger proportion of the present House of Commons and the mood and temper which this Vote of Censure which the right hon. Gentleman has moved personally upon me implies, can be made use of throughout the United States by Isolationist forces and by the anti-British elements which form a powerful minority throughout the great Republic.
  I say to those former Ministers whose records lie behind them and who have put their names to this Motion: "Beware lest in petty manoeuvres about the leadership of the Socialist Party you do not injure causes to which you have pledged your honour and all our fortunes."
  I had no wish or need to proclaim any new policy to Congress because, so far as policy is concerned, in Korea and China, we were only following in accordance with our own convictions the policy entered into and long pursued by our predecessors. But I hoped by my visit to the United States, first to establish an intimacy and an atmosphere of goodwill
  980
  in the high circles that rule in Washington which would make it much easier in the future to deal with problems as they arise. I also felt a keen sympathy with the American people in their losses, and in having so many of their men serving far away from home.
  I hoped also to give the Congress and people of the United States something of a glow and sense of our abiding friendship for them, and of our gratitude to them for all they have done for us, and for the causes which we also are resolved to serve with all our strength. On the whole I cannot feel, in spite of this party challenge, that I have failed in what I sought to do.
  Mrs. Barbara Castle rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Lady must resume her seat.
  Mrs. Castle: On a point of order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Is it a point of order? If not, the hon. Lady must resume her seat.
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Member desires to ask if I have misstated anything or to correct me in any way, I should make an exception in her case because she always conforms to such a high level of courtesy.
  Mrs. Castle: I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman and to ask him in all seriousness if, as he says, he made no new commitment additional to the one made by the late Government he can tell us why it has been widely reported in the United States responsible Press that there has been a change of policy in relation to Korea as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's visit to the United States.
  The Prime Minister: I am afraid that it is very difficult always to follow with complete accuracy all the movements represented in our own Press here at home, and I really cannot undertake to have a similar mastery of the mighty Press of the United States. But what I have stated here is a fact—that I made no new commitment in this field of foreign affairs of any sort or kind.
  However, there are a few points of detail in this meticulous heresy hunt on which I will touch. The right hon. Gentleman the

  981
  Leader of the Opposition complained in his speech the last time we debated this matter that I had used the word "United States" more often than I had used the words "United Nations." Surely, when speaking to the American Congress, whose troops have contributed nine-tenths of the fighting power and whose casualties are 20 times as great as all the other members of the United Nations put together, it would not be unnatural that I should speak of them and of their sacrifices.
  But technically I have a right to speak of the United States as a prime factor because it is their commander who, under the United Nations, is the head of the Unified Command provided by the United States Government over all the forces employed. It only shows the limited and lopsided character of the Socialist trend of thought that they should complain that I did not deny the United States, in their own Assembly, the honour which belongs to them of being the supreme agent and chosen leader of the world instrument against Communist aggression.
  The Leader of the Opposition admitted the other day that he agreed with what I had said to Congress about Formosa. This is what I said:
  "I am very glad that, whatever diplomatic divergencies there may be from time to time about the procedure, you"—
  that is, Congress—
  "do not allow the Chinese anti-communists on Formosa to be invaded and massacred from the mainland."
  It is the only thing that one could say about Formosa which could be agreed on both sides of this House and on both sides of the Congress of the United States, and, indeed, on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. I thought it was rather a good selection—almost a bullseye. The fact that I selected it was, by implication, adverse to other statements which could be made on the subject and was, I believe, so understood and accepted by the great majority of my audience on that occasion.
  I have been accused of speaking with two voices on different sides of the Atlantic. That is not true. I speak with the same voice, I can assure hon. Members—the one to which they are having the opportunity of listening today. Wherever I speak everything that I say on these occasions will no
  982
  doubt be immediately reported or broadcast in the fullest manner on both sides of the Ocean. I am not conscious of the slightest change of thought or conviction on these important issues, and I do not retract a word that I have used on either occasion, here or on the other side, on our foreign outlook and policy.
  Let me then sum up. First, there is no change in our policy towards the United States, towards the United Nations or towards the war in Korea. Secondly, on the circumstances which might justify action not confined to Korea, we have only followed and conformed to the policy for which the late Government were responsible and for which no two men were more personally responsible than the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken to us and who has thought it compatible with his personal candour and public behaviour to move this Motion.
  Thirdly, I believe that on both sides of the Atlantic we are convinced, as I have argued since the beginning of these troubles, that nothing could be more foolish than for the armies of the United States or the United Nations to become engulfed in the vast areas of China, and also that few adventures could be less successful or fruitful than for Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek to plunge on to the mainland.
  Fourthly, if the truce is made only to be broken, a very grave situation will arise in which we must act as good comrades to our American and other United Nation friends and as a loyal member of the United Nations Organisation. In this case, our action, like that contemplated by our predecessors, will be prompt, resolute and effective.
  Finally, the prospects of a truce being reached and respected in Korea will depend to a large extent upon the unity between Great Britain and the United States being proved to be not only unbreakable but growing stronger, and the attempts of all who seek to weaken or divide us being repulsed and condemned as they will be tonight by the House of Commons.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: I should like to start, as I did not intend to do, by making a reference to the most unusual device adopted by the right hon.

  983
  Gentleman in making a summary of a State paper, and I should like to say to hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House that they ought to begin to reflect seriously on the consequences that might follow from that precedent.
  First of all, it does not concern me, obviously, because the date mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman was after my resignation from the Government. Therefore, I can hardly be accused of a private preoccupation by the disclosure. But I should like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that, if it is proper for any Cabinet Minister who has access to all previous State papers to make any reference that he likes to them without being under the obligation to publish them, that will deal a deadly blow not only at the probity of Government but at the principle of collective Cabinet responsibility.
  I want to point out to the House what follows from this, and I want to remind the right hon. Gentleman that, of all people, he ought not to have done it, because I remember him having the biggest hiding of his career at the hands of the late Earl Lloyd George for a previous act of similar mischief.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down!
  Mr. Bevan: If hon. Members will listen—
  Mr. Osborne: It is not worth listening to.
  Mr. Bevan: —they will realise that the argument will be continued for very many months. I have never yet known the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) to make an intelligent intervention.
  Mr. Osborne rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down!
  Mr. Bevan: What is involved in this? In the first place, if the right hon. Gentleman will kindly give me his attention and suppress his innate frivolity, he will realise that all Cabinet meetings are already summarised and not reported verbatim. Therefore, if we who have been members of Cabinets are to be exposed to a summary of a summary, all our past conduct can be completely falsified and made the
  984
  subject of a series of lying innuendoes. If it be accepted—this is of the utmost constitutional importance and I want hon. Members opposite to remember that we have access to Cabinet papers—nothing can stop me going to Cabinet papers—just as nothing can stop right hon. Gentlemen opposite—and nothing can prevent me, if this precedent is to be accepted, from summarising Cabinet papers, State papers or Cabinet minutes. Before we know where we are the British Constitution will be engulfed in a series of fruitless recriminations. It is only the right hon. Gentleman with his eighteenth century psychology who would have indulged in the trick at all. In fact, he would have been a worthy member of Lord North's administration.
  Hon. and right hon. Members opposite may think they have won a temporary advantage by this method, but they must measure and weight its consequences. This is a boomerang, and the wounded will not only be on this side of the House. I warn right hon. Members who are members of the Cabinet that if this is going to be done, there should be a shorthand report of all Cabinets and Ministerial committees; otherwise, they may find themselves in the hands of summaries which have bowdlerized what they say and the advice that they have given; and some future political enemy may further bowdlerize it in a debate in this House. I should have taken the right hon. Gentleman on one side and asked him whether he has not done British constitutional practice a great injury by this piece of irresponsible foolery this afternoon.
  I say this with due humility, that in the course of the last 20 years I have given considerable attention to the study of Parliamentary practice. [An HON. MEMBER: "And other things."] The hon. Gentleman will probably be confined to one thing. In the course of that time it has always seemed to me—and I put this in all respect before the House —that the informality of our discussions, which is the envy of the world, is only rendered possible by having it maintained within a strict formalism of procedure. Once that formalism is broken down and once the tacit assumptions of political relationships are broken, then there is no limit to the damage which can be done to the British Constitution. 'Therefore, I earnestly hope we shall not

  985
  have a repetition of what has been done this afternoon.
  Even now the right hon. Gentleman ought to respond to the invitation of the Front Bench and publish the paper, because to take hold of a State paper, which he says it is not in the public interest to publish, and then to indicate a part of its contents—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman, according to Erskine May and the strict constitutional procedure, has nothing to shelter behind except that it is not in the public interest to disclose a document. If, therefore, be does not publish the document at this moment, but contents himself with giving what may be a lying summary.—[Interruption.] How do we know it is otherwise, because there is nothing in the right hon. Gentleman's career that would guard us against that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] I do not propose to withdraw; I have said nothing which is out of order.
  Mr. Bernard Braine: Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Manuel: To tell the truth?
  Mr. Braine: —to make foul imputations of that kind against my right hon. Friend?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If I hear any hon. or right hon. Gentleman saying anything which is out of order I shall deal with it.
  Mr. Bevan: You, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, quoted Erskine May, where it says:
  "It has also been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the table of the House, if it can be done without injury to the public interests."
  If its publication would injure the public interest, the right hon. Gentleman ought never to have made reference to it at all.
  At the conclusion of his speech the Prime Minister inferred—this shows the extent to which his ego now fills the whole cosmos—that an attack upon him might be construed as an attack upon the United States. That is an astonishing doctrine. We have always known that the right hon. Gentleman believed that any attack upon him is an attack upon Great Britain. We have always known that his ego has expanded to that extent, but surely it is now an unusual doctrine to suggest that for the Opposition to move
  986
  a Vote of Censure upon him is imperilling Anglo-American relations.
  Of course, the right hon. Gentleman might complain, as the Foreign Secretary himself complained, of what might be described as anti-American feeling in this country and as anti-American feeling on this side of the House. I have never had any anti-American feeling. [Laughter.] I can tell hon. Members opposite that I have more friends in America than I have on the other side of the House. Hon. Members opposite must get these facts right. No one is wholly in favour of British policy. Is there complete unanimity in Great Britain about British foreign policy? Of course there is not. Is there complete unanimity in the United States behind American foreign policy? Of course there is not.
  This attempt to make nations into homogeneous units, and so make it impossible to criticise any aspect of the administration of a country without being charged with being against the country as a whole belongs to juvenile polemics. No one is more adept at that than the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman this. He himself, I am quite sure, would admit that there are different currents of opinion inside the United States of America. We therefore are entitled to criticise certain of those currents without being accused of anti-Americanism.
  For example, I am not going to quote from Senator Taft. I am not going to give quotations at all. I am not going to quote from Americans in an electioneering year, because we all know that Americans in their electioneering are even less scrupulous than hon. Gentlemen opposite. It would be distinctly unfair to suggest that Senator Taft actually believes what he is saying any more than the right hon. Gentleman believes all that he is saying. In fact, I am going to ask the right hon. Gentleman one or two questions.
  What we are anxious about here—and our anxiety is shared outside this House and we must all keep it within our consciousness—is that if there is one thing that lies heavily upon the hearts of hundreds of millions of people it is the fear that the statesmen of the world may not be able to prevent a third world war. Therefore, we have to consider these matters in the light of that all-pervading anxiety. That is the reason why we were

  987
  so much upset by what we thought the right hon. Gentleman had said.
  I freely admit that the right hon. Gentleman is the most articulate Englishman that has ever lived. He has a gift of language, both in speech and in writing, and many of his spoken and written contributions are adornments of the English language. If there is anyone who has the gift of making himself clear, it is the right hon. Gentleman. It is a gift not shared by the Foreign Secretary, who is able to shelter a very opaque foreign policy behind ambiguity of language. The right hon. Gentleman is above all men, clear.
  How did it come about that he was so much misunderstood? [An HON. MEMBER: "By you."] Not only by us but by reputable elements in the United States of America? It is no use hon. and right hon. Gentlemen shaking their heads. Not only must they have spoken to large numbers of Americans who take the same view, but they must know that almost every organ of responsible American opinion put a different construction upon the Congress speech than the right hon. Gentleman has given this afternoon.
  Therefore I am bound to ask myself, as I am sure we are all bound to ask ourselves: How did he come to be misunderstood? Did he succumb to the warmth of his reception? Was he seduced by his immediate audience? Were his indiscretions the result of his lack of self-control? If that was the case, we will give him a series of warm receptions on this side of the House, hoping to receive the benefit of a similar number of indiscretions.
  The United States of America believed that, as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's visit, a change had taken place in British foreign policy towards the Far East; and, indeed, what other conclusion could they form? My right hon. Friend the ex-Foreign Secretary has made a quotation, and it stands out here startlingly:
  "What I have learned over here convinces me that British and United States policy in the Far East will be marked by increasing harmony."
  Does that mean that they are moving towards us or we are moving towards them? Being a Welshman, I am interested in the structure of harmony.
  988
  "Increasing harmony" means being of increasing accord. The Foreign Secretary made it quite clear on the last occasion that there were deep differences of opinion between Great Britain and the United States on China policy. Are we moving towards them, or are they moving towards us? From what situation does the harmony arise? I wish the Prime Minister would listen, because he will not hear as much good sense from the Chief Whip as I am giving him.
  The Prime Minister: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I am afraid I did not hear what he said. I am so sorry to have missed it. Would he mind repeating it?
  Mr. Bevan: It was not a good enough joke to repeat. The point that I am putting is this. Here is a quotation from "The Times" of 12th February—and I am not quoting politicians who are trying to get votes—
  "Mr. Dulles, during a broadcast discussion last night, said that the United States must let all the Far East know that it would not stand idly by while any part of the world remained under the rule of either Communist or Fascist dictatorship."
  Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of that? Are our arms to be engaged in a war against Communism as such? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer !"] Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with that statement? During a broadcast, Mr. Dulles has said that the United States must let all the Far East know that it would not stand idly by while any part of the world remained under the rule of either Communist or Fascist dictatorship. I think he put "Fascist" in as a make-weight. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that as a definition of British Foreign policy?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, certainly not.
  Mr. Bevan: In other words, there is no harmony there. Will the right hon. Gentleman now—he has not told us in his speech—indicate where the harmony arises? This is a serious matter. We are discussing here not merely the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman in the United States but, it may be, the end of what is described as bi-partisan foreign policy in this country, and we want to know where we stand. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman does not agree with that. I will go on. I am very glad that we

  989
  are getting together, even if the right hon. Gentleman is not getting together with the American Administration. This report goes on:
  "American intervention"—
  mark the words—
  "in the Korean conflict was a step in this direction"—
  this is still Mr. Dulles speaking—
  "because it showed its determination to prevent the spread of Communism."
  So that, from the mouth of Mr. Foster Dulles, this is not a United Nations operation to contain an act of aggression, but an intervention by the United States over a long distance of time against Communism. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that? Is this not a complete justification of the charge being made that behind the guise and façade of the United Nations the Americans are waging an ideological war with weapons against the Soviet Union?
  We must warn our American friends that not one British soldier, sailor or airman will risk his life behind a policy of that kind. In saying this I am speaking for myself and not for my party as a whole. However I believe that is the view of the overwhelming mass of the rank and file of every party in Great Britain. It would be a great mistake to leave American public opinion under any delusion about that.
  Mr. Foster Dulles goes on:
  "The United States should stir up all possible trouble and inconvenience for the Communist régime in China, and should take the raps off General Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist forces in Formosa in their effort to harass the Chinese Communists."
  I wonder whether Mr. Foster Dulles knows what he is talking about. Does he seriously understand the implications of those words? Why should the Chinese People's Government come to terms in Korea when they are now told explicitly, not merely implicitly, that the United States is actively promoting a resumption of civil war on the mainland of China? It is a terrible responsibility to take.
  In the last debate we had on this matter the Foreign Secretary asked us to put ourselves in American shoes. Let us put ourselves in Chinese shoes for a change. Let us ask ourselves what we would do. Everybody here knows—at least every miner, railwayman and
  990
  agricultural worker knows very well that if he were in China he would be a Communist peasant. He would not be a Chiang Kai-shek, he would be a Communist. Of course he would be. Anyone who had lived under the régime of Chiang Kai-shek would become a Communist. [An HON. MEMBER: "He would be forced to be one."] He would not be forced to be a Communist because everybody knows that when the People's Armies marched they occupied a country where the people received them willingly, while Chiang Kai-shek's forces were retreating in a partly hostile country—I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister sees to laugh at in that—
  The Prime Minister: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I was not laughing at him. My attention was caught by the overcrowding of the Front Bench opposite below the Gangway.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman now suffers from certain physical disabilities and he ought not to reinforce them by inattention. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] We are now in great difficulty. On this side of the House we are afraid that the activities now going on in Korea are being slowly converted into a world-wide attack on Communism, and we believe that, if it is allowed to continue much further, it will mean the end of independence in British foreign policy and it may mean the end of civilisation.
  Therefore I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should say to the American Government in explicit terms that we repudiate the Foster Dulles document. However, the right hon. Gentleman had a sinister passage in his speech today in which he found it difficult to distinguish between what he called types of wars. In fact, he described what is happening in Korea as war. I asked, what was happening in Spain when Italian and German forces were there. Was it war? What did hon. Gentlemen opposite do about it? [HON. MEMBERS: "What did you do about it?"] What the party opposite did about it was to shelter themselves behind a hypocritical policy of non-intervention to help Mussolini and to help Franco and to help Hitler establish a Fascist régime in Spain.
  Mr. Dudley Williams: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is the right hon. Gentleman maintaining that it would be better if there were a Communist regime in Spain today?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
  Mr. Bevan: The Chinese call their troops volunteers like the Italians and the Germans did. In fact, what we have been hoping to do by using the same language is to try to contain the fighting there. So far it has been contained. I believe it has been contained for reasons that I do not think are apparent to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. They, and the American administration in particular, have all along deceived themselves into thinking that this irredentism in the Far East and the Middle East is the result of a Kremlin plot. It is no such thing.
  In so far as the Soviet Union still believes in power politics—and heaven knows it is getting a lot of excuses just now—it is true that the Soviet Union seeks to take local advantage of social disturbances. However it is also true to say that that irredentism is entirely indigenous. No one can suggest otherwise. If, in fact, the Soviet Union is so powerful and is so omniscient as to be able to stir up and manage and direct all these social forces all over the world, we ought to send a postcard to Stalin and give in. [An HON. MEMBER: "You would."] It is because the right hon. Gentlemen and the American administration make the wrong diagnosis ofthe problem that a wrong solution is being applied at the present time.
  Mr. Arthur Colegate: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are we discussing a vote of censure on the American administration or on the Prime Minister?
  Mr. Speaker: On this Motion the discussion can go very wide, but it would be helpful to the House if we could cut down the width of the discussion.
  Mr. Bevan: I ask you respectfully, Mr. Speaker, to look at the Motion. I do not know whether you heard all that the Prime Minister said, but I have said nothing so far which is not strictly relevant to what the right hon. Gentleman said.
  Mr. Speaker: I am well aware that within the terms of the Motion the debate can go very wide, and I said so. At the same time there are limits to width, and and it would be helpful if we concentrated more on the sense of the Motion.
  Mr. Bevan: I submit to your Ruling, Sir, but will you do the House a favour? Will you tomorrow look at the speeches of the Prime Minister and myself and see whether mine is wider than his? The Prime Minister, throughout a considerable portion of his speech, twitted this party on trying to hide their policy behind a difference of description of the war going on in Korea at the present time.
  We are saying, and I repeat this, that what is happening in the Far East and the Middle East is in consequence of all-pervasive poverty. It is the consequence of a revolution that will go on for the rest of this century and will not be contained by the military arms of the United States of America, Great Britain or Western Europe all together. That is why we think that a very great deal of energy, of material wealth, is being thrown away on fighting the wrong sort of war. The war that we want fought is a war against those despairing social conditions that give rise to war.
  As a result of pouring out our treasure on a myth, on an assumption that all this is Russian military aggrandisement, Europe has been ruined. That is why I plead for more vigorous British leadership, because nothing that has happened in the last six months can give us any confidence in American diplomatic leadership at the present time.
  France is being ruined. We are facing a financial crisis. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] We are not? Then the party opposite should not steal the Health Service. We are facing a financial crisis. All Western Europe is facing grave economic difficulties, largely as a consequence of the fact that all the statesmen in America and Great Britain are becoming the victims of a mythology that they are meeting the Machiavellian plots of the Kremlin where, in most instances, they are meeting the natural rebellion of the ordinary human being against intolerable conditions.
  Therefore, I suggest that what the people of Great Britain want to see is not how we can make more effective war

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  against the Chinese. What they want to know is what steps we are taking to make a peace, not how big a gulf we are digging between ourselves and the Soviet Union; and what far reaching plans we are making to pacify the world. It is because they do not believe that the Prime Minister is capable of seeing things in that light that they have no confidence in him in this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "They sent him here."] If he went to the country tomorrow, he would be handsomely beaten. [Interruption.] That is why I suggest that the time has arrived to state the facts clearly to the Americans as we see them. Do not believe that this will cause so much difficulty as is suggested. Americans like to be told the truth, roughly—they state it themselves.
  Do not let us believe that behind the monolithic face of the Soviet Union there are no differences of opinion. That would be a very great mistake. Dictatorship has schisms, as well as democracies; the difference is that they are hidden from the public gaze. There must be inside Russia at present roughly two schools of thought—
  Mr. Stephen McAdden: One in camp and one out.
  Mr. Bevan: I remind the hon. Member that it is no more use abusing the Soviet Union than abusing the United States. If that is the point of view he adopts, he is not fit to occupy a public position.
  This universal indictment of nations ought to be left behind in the adolescence of mankind. Behind this facade in Russia there must be two main contending streams of thought. There are the younger ones, the younger revolutionaries, who have come of age since the Revolution was consummated, who, probably, had illusions of imperial grandeur and might want to have an adventure. They are reinforced in their advice, in their propaganda, by the growing belief that the combinations of the Western World might take on aggressive intentions, because behind this language of Foster Dulles, behind what is being said in the Embassies of Europe, there is a good deal of chatter about bringing the thing to an issue, ending it all, and the Russians know this. Therefore, there must be in Russia advisers who say, "Let us take it on be-
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  fore they get stronger than they are now."
  But, obviously, those advisers have lost, because there is another school in the Soviet Union. That school has always thought that it is not necessary to try to accomplish the world revolution by military methods, that they can always rely upon differences of opinion; and so far, their point of view has been in the ascendancy. We do not want any differences of opinion between us and the United States of America to encourage hopes of a military adventure anywhere, but we do not want such subservience to American opinion that convinces the Russians that there is no hope for them except through another blood bath.
  We want no homogeneous policy on one side, and no homogenous policy on the other side. We want frank exchanges of opinion, hoping that mankind will still have the wisdom to find a better way out of its difficulties than another insane holocaust.
  6.47 p.m.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) has made a speech, some of the points in which require an immediate statement and answer. I agree with him and perhaps he would agree with me, that the test which we should apply to our words, our actions and our Motions in the House is whether they are likely to contribute to world peace or otherwise.
  I wish to put forward one or two points of view about the Motion which is before the House. I am not going to say anything about the personal motives which may have inspired it, because it is in the interests of the House and of the country, and of the world as a whole, that we should so far as possible damp down this sort of controversy. In seeking to put certain points of view before the Opposition today, I find myself very much in the same position as I was, time after time, during the United Nations meetings in Paris, in attempting to prevent matters reaching the extremities of controversy.
  So far as criticism of my right hon. Friend's speech is concerned, there was one matter to which the leader of the Opposition in particular referred in his

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  speech on 5th February. The former Foreign Secretary gave expression to a similar view today, and to some extent it was implicit in what the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale has just said. On 5th February, criticising the speech of the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition said:
  "I cannot but think that in doing so he tended to represent us as an ally, even a comparatively minor ally, in an American war."
  That was the thought which was implicit in the speech to which we have just listened.
  "It is significant that he only mentioned the United Nations once in the whole of that speech, and that was only very much in passing, mainly to emphasise the fact that physical action had been taken on the largest scale by the United States for a moral action by the United Nations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 838.]
  That was the criticism, I thought an important criticism, which is well worth meeting.
  But, of course, the Leader of the Opposition did not in fact read to the House or pay just attention to what my right hon. Friend had said because, after the reference which I have just given, after the statement about Formosa and after welcoming the patience of the negotiators in the armistice negotiations and after the passage referred to by the right hon. Gentleman about increasing harmony, my right hon. Friend spoke of the sympathy in British hearts for the Americans who had given their lives and went on to say:
  "Whatever course events in Korea may take in the near future I am sure that our soldiers and your soldiers have not made their sacrifices in vain. The cause of world law has found strong and invaluable defence and the foundations of the world instrument for preserving peace, justice and freedom among the nations have been deepened and strengthened. They stand now not on paper, but on rock."
  I maintain that it was a totally unfair criticism of the Prime Minister's speech just to mention that passing reference to the United Nations withou quoting the passage, to which I have referred, making it clear that the context of these operations was in regard to the strengthening of the world instrument for preserving peace, justice and freedom. I do not think there is a single person in this House at present who, having heard the
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  speech of the Foreign Secretary on 5th February, and the speech of the Prime Minister today, now believes there are any additional commitments of any sort entered into. There has been the most explicit undertaking given in regard to that by both my right hon. Friends.
  Mr. S. Silverman: The right hon. and learned Gentleman must not run away with that.
  Mr. Lloyd: The next suggestion—and here I come to one of the points made by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale—was that by his speech my right hon. Friend was helping dangerous elements in the United States of America. I do not think there can be a better answer to that—and I apologise for another quotation—than from the leading article in the "Manchester Guardian" of yesterday, which is headed, "Who Helps Taft?"
  "Who is doing most to help them: Mr. Churchill and his Cabinet or Mr. Attlee and some of his party?…the Labour Party itself seems to be doing more in Senator Taft's case than Mr. Churchill has ever done. How does Mr. Attlee suppose that the Opposition motion will be read in the United States? Its finer point—that the House, although approving the Foreign Secretary's statement of policy, regrets the Prime Minister's failure to give expression to that policy—will be lost. (That is in any case a formula to hide differences among Labour Members.)
  It will look to many people in America like a plain statement that Labour will not go along with the United States in any effective action against China if a truce is broken. It is enough to make Senator Taft whoop with joy. It is exactly what he has been saying: that America cannot count on anybody. And the more Americans of all persuasions come to believe Britain cannot be relied on, whatever the Chinese do, the less they will be willing to listen to our views.
  The trouble with the Opposition motion and with Labour's action in forcing it forward again is that it emphasises disunity."
  Mr. Bevan: Is the inference of that that the House of Commons should be in Recess during American election year?
  Mr. Lloyd: The inference to be drawn from that is that in the steps it takes, in the Motions it tables, and in the speeches hon. Members make, the House should be careful to see that it furthers unity between this country and its allies and that it furthers unity and world peace.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I do not quite know the inference we are to draw from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's last

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  sentence. Is he suggesting that the House of Commons should not go into Recess during American election year, but be very careful because we want one side or the other side to win in America? Is that what the right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying?
  Mr. Lloyd: I meant neither of those things, but I will endeavour to unfold my arguments. One of the troubles is that there is some difficulty in unfolding a continuous argument because of the great deal of assistance that is given. I will come back to that point because I wish to do so, but I wish first to deal with the latter part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I think his argument is fairly put in these terms: that re-armament on its present scale is not the right answer to Communism.
  Mr. Bevan indicated assent.
  Mr. Lloyd: The right hon. Gentleman is so good as to nod his head to show that I am not putting it unfairly. I think the attitude of Her Majesty's Government should be made quite clear on this point. We certainly do not agree and do not maintain that it is the only answer, but, in our view it is the first essential answer because, unless the independence and security of the free nations can first be assured, it is foolish to talk of economic aid to under-developed countries. The one is a condition precedent without which the other is impossible.
  This argument is used often—and it is one of the reasons why I sought to intervene at this moment—as though we were not giving any help or making any attempt to give help to under-developed countries in the world. In a supplementary question yesterday there was a reference to one of our contributions as "a paltry contribution." I think I shall have the support of right hon. Gentlemen opposite because I think the record of assistance we have given other countries in the past six years really entitles us to a very great deal of credit.
  One thinks of the assistance given in South and South-East Asia; the releases from sterling balances of something like £400 million from the end of the war to June, 1949; £172 million from June, 1949 to June, 1951; the Colombo Plan, which envisages something like £300 million—these are figures of releases from sterling balances and also of gifts and loans. As
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  far as our colonial territories are concerned there is the £140 million under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act; the loans raised in the United Kingdom in this year alone, 1951, of £23 million; the £110 million of the Colonial Development Corporation's capital and the very large sums financed out of the resources of the colonies themselves.
  In the Middle East there is the help given to Palestinian refugees; specific matters like locust control; and help in Jordan, Libya and Eritrea. Then there are the various international agencies and sums of money devoted to those for this current year amount to nearly £3 million.
  These have all been referred to by right hon. Gentlemen opposite and when it is put forward again and again that our only attempt is to deal with the matter on the basis of re-armament, that is not fair to the sacrifices the British people have made in the last six years in order to give assistance to these under-developed territories. In these matters I say straight away that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are entitled to a great deal of credit.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: In regard to the question put yesterday, would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman admit that the cut made by the Government is an exceedingly heavy one for the first month of the year and at the beginning of their term of office?
  Mr. Lloyd: I do not want to get involved in matters of detail, but the cut is, in fact, 10 per cent.
  Mrs. Mann: No.
  Mr. Lloyd: The previous figure was for 18 months, so the figure is 10 per cent. The grant of £760,000 was for 18 months and the figure of £450,000 is for 12 months only. On a pro rata basis, if the same rate had been maintained it would be £500,000 and it has been reduced to £450,000. I think we all regret the necessity for having to make the reduction.
  Mrs. Castle: Is it not a fact that in the discussions of the United Nations contributors were asked to maintain for the second 12 months' period the same rate as they previously maintained and that we were the only contributors, apart

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  from Australia, who failed to respond to that appeal?
  Mr. Lloyd: One of the reasons which caused us to make a reduction was the fact that of previous contributions only 10 per cent. had been spent by the end of September. In that circumstance, this new figure has not damaged or affected contributions made by other countries. Considering all the other difficulties, and the fact that we have increased our help in certain other respects, and having regard to the overall picture I do not think we have anything about which to be ashamed with regard to this help to underdeveloped territories.
  The main point for consideration by public opinion throughout the world is that we are not seeking to say that rearmament is the only answer to Communism. The last Government, and this Government, the two parties together, are in agreement and are taking very substantial measures, considering our financial circumstances, to give assistance to under-developed countries throughout the whole world, and we shall certainly continue to do everything we can within our means. But unless we are strong enough to defend ourselves all this really would be money wasted.
  After all, when people blame us for this re-armament programme it should be remembered that it is not our fault; that it is not so much a question of a conflict of ideologies, but because the Soviet Union has driven its frontiers further westward. In particular, we remember the fate of Czechoslovakia, and in view of a threat like that to the free countries, one by one, it seems to me impossible for any responsible body of opinion in this country not to support the re-armament of this country, in concert with its Allies, as the first essential defence against the Soviet Union.
  Mr. Manuel: I take it that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is indicating that there is no difference with the opinion expressed by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) against re-armament, but that he is actually in agreement with the view expressed by the right hon. Gentleman for Ebbw Vale, as he is a party to the under-spending of the amount fixed for this year by approximately £100 million? That is agreed?
  Mr. Lloyd: I think that on all these matters of foreign affairs, it is exceedingly important to get the greatest possible measure of unity on both sides of the House. The hon. Member has interpreted the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale and myself as being in agreement on this point. I am not sure that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale would agree, but if we are in agreement I am very glad of it.
  Mr. Bevan: In this controversy, as in others, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is identifying the term "re-armament" with the re-armament programme. They are not necessarily the same things at all. As a matter of fact our contention is that the re-armament programme which is being effected has now left us weaker than if it had been smaller.
  Mr. Lloyd: I was dealing with what I might call the ideological point: that it was suggested that we believe that rearmament, whether the re-armament programme or anything else, is the only answer to Communism. I think it necessary to put on record at the earliest possible moment that that is not our view; but we do believe that it is the first essential in facing Communism. The other matter which again I think arises out of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. George Wigg: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that one of the reasons why my hon. Friends and, indeed, why thousands of people up and down the country believe that the Government bases its opposition to Communism solely in re-armament is because of the record of the Prime Minister in the wars of intervention against the Soviet Union in 1918, 1919 and 1920?
  Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman may believe that, but I do not think that more than an infinitesimal fraction of the people of this country share that view.
  The other matter which, as I say, I think should receive a great deal more publicity than it has received at present is the question of a preventive war. I may be doing the right hon. Gentleman an injustice, but I think I detected in his speech the idea that we in some way favoured, or at all events were supporting people who favoured, the idea of a preventive war against Communism. There has been a great deal of criticism of the

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  speech of the Prime Minister and I think it right we should draw attention to the passage towards the end of the speech where he made it clear that we
  "seek or covet no one's territory. We plan no forestalling war."
  That should be taken in conjunction with what the American Secretary of State said on, I think, 21st February:
  "People of my country and the peoples of the other countries of the Atlantic community do not cherish military strength for its own sake.…We seek to build forces adequate to deter aggression or to meet it. We do not seek to create greater strength than we need for this purpose; we do not desire military forces great enough to launch a preventive war. We desire peace and the aim of all the efforts we have undertaken…is solely to ensure that we shall live in peace."
  When we are hearing a great deal of unfavourable things about what certain American people have said, I think it only fair to give great prominence to that clear statement, which is precisely what the Prime Minister said in his speech to Congress. I submit, taking these arguments one by one, that there are no grounds at all, to use one of the right hon. Gentleman's own phrases, for this miasma of suspicion and misrepresentation about what has been said.
  There is another aspect of this Motion and I would urge this point of view on hon. Members opposite, because I hope it is not too late for them to have second thoughts about this matter. What will be the impression upon the world of this Motion, and the voting against the Government upon it? It will be said that the Opposition have voted against the Government on foreign policy and that this is the end of bi-partisan foreign policy. It is no good hon. Members opposite failing to appreciate that fact.
  I would remind them of the example of the Second Reading of the National Health Bill, in 1948. The Conservative Party made it quite clear on that occasion that they were not voting against the principles of the Bill, but they were voting on a reasoned Amendment which clearly set out our view. Ever since then the Labour Party has maintained that we voted against the principles of the Bill. They have said it again and again, and I expect that they succeeded in convincing a good many people of it.
  It is exactly the same with regard to this Motion, although there is this rather
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  clever form of words seeking not to make it a Vote of Censure on the foreign policy of the Government, but only on the Prime Minister. It will be read, in fact, as showing disunity between the major parties on this matter and disunity between the United States and a large section of our people; and I suggest that that will be a lamentable conclusion.
  The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), the former Foreign Secretary, talked today about playing the Communist game. The people who will delight in what is taking place in this House today, if this Motion is pressed to a Division, will be Mr. Vyshinsky and his colleagues, with whom I have been endeavouring to deal during the past three months. During the whole of the last Session of the United Nations they spent their time attempting to split the United States and the United Kingdom apart, to shake our confidence in one another and to shake the will of the free world to resist. I said that to them at the time and it was perfectly obvious that that was their endeavour.
  I believe the greater majority of hon. Members in the House are in favour of maintaining our freedom. We may differ about the method, but I believe that by far the larger number of hon. Members wish to see this country and other free countries united in their defence of freedom. It is all very well to think of this as an academic or theoretical discussion, but it is not, because we have seen the frontiers of Soviet Communism gradually expanding to the west, and many a time right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite have testified to the degree of that menace and to the necessity for our being strong enough to defend ourselves against it.
  Some hon. Members, in point of fact, have said that in their view the threat of war had come very much nearer in the past three months, but the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) said the other day, in South Africa:
  "I believe that the immediate danger of war has passed"
  I do not agree with either of those statements. I think that, as we gather our strength in this country, so the threat of war will diminish, but to say that the immediate danger is past is to make by far a too optimistic statement of the case.

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  I should have thought that we in this House should be concentrating all our efforts upon increasing the common ground between the parties and the common ground between ourselves and the United States with regard to tackling this danger to the free world. First of all, we should build up together our defensive strength, both military and economic, and we are agreed upon that. We should sustain the rule of law, and again we are agreed on that. We should strengthen the authority of the world instrument to preserve peace, justice and freedom. We should help, to the utmost of our capacity, economically and technically, those people whose standards must be raised, and we must do all that, not in a spirit of patronising superiority, but as partners.
  These are the objectives which are in common between most hon. Members opposite and those on this side of the House. I believe that they are the common objectives between the United States of America, or by far the larger proportion of its citizens, and by far the larger proportion of our citizens, and that the Prime Minister's speech to Congress, to quote again the words of the "Manchester Guardian"
  "…revived the sense of partnership between the two Governments."
  I think it was a substantial contribution towards the attainment of the objectives to which I have just referred.
  I say again, in all seriousness that I think one is perfectly entitled to debate these matters. I think the right hon. Gentleman made a most interesting contribution, developing a point of view which most certainly had to be debated and answered. I do, however, ask hon. Members and those responsible for this Motion to think twice about registering a Division in the House today, from which the world will certainly draw the inference that the general agreement between the two parties in this country on foreign policy has ended. If that, happens, it will certainly endanger the cause of peace, and any censure to come will rest not upon my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister but upon those who support the Motion in the Division Lobby tonight.
  7.14 p.m.
  Mr. Michael O'Neill: I hope that the House will bear with me
  1004
  for a few moments while I enter into this debate and make my maiden speech.
  As an Irishman, I feel that the foreign policy of any Government should be aimed to achieve one objective—world peace. I think everybody agrees on that, but, in order to achieve that objective, we have to recognise one basic principle, and that is the right of free and equal partnership for all the nations of the world. To quote President Truman when he spoke at San Francisco on 4th September, 1951:
  "The peoples of our country want, and are determined to have, a world at peace, where there is justice and freedom for all nations."
  In this respect, I believe that this Government, and, indeed, past British Governments, have a wrong conception of nationalism. According to the policy of this Government, it would seem that nationalism, as applied to some countries, is a very great virtue, but, in other countries, it would seem to be regarded as a very great vice. That is not true of the world today, because we have reached a stage in our civilisation when every country can manage its own affairs, without being a menace to its neighbours or a danger to world peace.
  As an Irishman and an Ulsterman, I took a special interest in the Prime Minister's visit to America. The right hon. Gentleman had a wonderful opportunity, as a professed democrat, to enlist world opinion over there for international peace, but I am afraid that it is just another case of having missed the bus.
  During that visit, the Prime Minister made two statements with regard to Ireland. In one, he is quoted as saying that Britain will never consent to a plebiscite in Ireland, and in the other he says that Britain will never desert Northern Ireland. To the Irish people, these statements constitute a threat, they are wholly inconsistent with democracy and have only succeeded in estranging the whole Irish race, both the Irish people in Ireland, in America and all over the world.
  The Prime Minister should have been well aware of the wishes of the Irish people, because in 1918, which was the last opportunity which the Irish people had of voting as a whole, over 80 per cent. of them voted for a free Ireland, and that position holds good today. I feel that, in this matter, I am merely pushing an open door, because both the

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  Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have made specific statements in this respect. The Prime Minister himself said, in 1948:
  "The will of the people, expressed in conditions of freedom and universal franchise, must prevail. That is our root principle."
  The Leader of the Opposition said, in 1947:
  "We are seeking, not to enforce our views on other people, but to try to see to it that every nation and every country and people are freely able to choose their own form of Government."
  What has occurred to cause these two right hon. Gentlemen to change their views? Why did they insist on maintaining a minority rule in Northern Ireland by force and at a time when the country could be of immense value, not only to this country alone, but to the whole western world? The days of minority rule went out with Lord Salisbury, and we hope they will never return, unless the Prime Minister envisages a dictatorship. We hope not. The will of the people must prevail in every country everywhere, and the sooner this Government realises that fact the better it will be for everybody, for Britain and the whole world.
  I should like, on behalf of my colleague and myself, to state that we do not desire to take any part in the domestic affairs of this country. Neither do we desire to be affiliated with any party here, but, to show our detestation of the policy of the present Government in having failed absolutely to make any approach towards a just solution of the Irish problem, we shall vote against the Government tonight.
  We seek the co-operation of all parties in our effort to achieve Irish unity. That is our sole objective here—to achieve the unity of Ireland—and I say to hon. Members of all parties: the friendship of the Irish people is worth having you can have it for the asking. It only requires one simple operation—take your troops out of the Six Counties and leave Ireland for the Irish.
  7.21 p.m.
  Mr. Fitzroy Maclean: While congratulating the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. O'Neill) on a very spirited maiden speech and saying how glad we are to see him and his colleagues take their seats, I should like to give the hon.
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  Gentleman a word of advice. Speaking as a Scotsman, I really think that he would do much better to try to use the tactics of peaceful penetration which we have used over the centuries with such success.
  Mr. W. Griffiths: What about the Stone?
  Mr. Maclean: I said "peaceful penetration." But perhaps this is a beginning. Having said that, I should like to try to get the debate back to the Motion which, in one way and another, seems to have been rather neglected this evening.
  I think few people would dispute that one of the most important features of British foreign policy since the war has been the measure of agreement which has existed between Government and Opposition on most of the main issues. Whatever the exact wording of the Motion that was finally tabled by the Opposition, the important thing about today's debate is that it marks a break in this limited but nevertheless valuable co-operation between the two great parties in the State, and I should like to spend a few moments examining how that break came about and what its effects are likely to be.
  During the late Government's period of office, many of us on this side of the House showed ourselves at different times highly critical of their conduct of foreign affairs, but what we criticised was not so much the underlying principles of their foreign policy as its timing and the methods by which its exponents sought to carry it out. Once the leaders of the party opposite had got over their lingering, sentimental affection for Russia, once they had belatedly grasped the imminence of the danger threatening this country, once they had realised—again belatedly—the need to re-arm and to strengthen the bonds which united us with our allies—once, in short, they had realised the need for collective security—then they were able to count on our support and to count on it with far greater certainty than on the support of many Members of their own party.
  I think that no one on this side of the House would deny the great services rendered by Ernest Bevin to the cause of world peace—services for which he was bitterly attacked by Members of his own party. Similarly, I do not think that any of my hon. Friends would deny the

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  fundamental wisdom of the re-armament programme initiated by the present Leader of the Opposition—once more to the accompaniment of persistent sniping from behind.
  Again we on these benches gave the right hon. Gentleman our wholehearted support when he took the courageous step of committing this country to war in Korea in defence of the principle of collective security, when later he authorised General MacArthur to cross the 38th Parallel, and finally when he joined the United States in branding the Chinese Government as aggressors. We now know that he went even further. On every one of these occasions, the then Prime Minister and his Government were able to count on the loyal support and co-operation of His Majesty's Opposition.
  That is what happened when a Labour Government was in power and when we were in Opposition. What happens now when the conduct of foreign affairs is in Conservative hands? What line do the Labour Party take now? Sabotage from the very beginning; at the Election the warmonger scare, the then Foreign Secretary, broadcasting to millions all over the world, doing his level best to queer the pitch for his successor; and now a China scare, just as harmful, just as artificial, and created from just the same motives.
  Mr. W. Griffiths: Might I point out that when the late Foreign Secretary made his broadcast speech during the Election he made the point that some of the hon. Member's colleagues had made most extravagant speeches—for example, the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest (Colonel Crosthwait-Eyre), who talked about dropping the atomic bomb on Russia now. He and others made speeches which were extremely dangerous to world peace.
  Mr. Maclean: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands me. I was talking about the passages in the broadcast in which the then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Gentleman who opened this debate, did his level best to queer the pitch for any Conservative successor. If the hon. Gentleman will look at the text of the broadcast he will see what I mean. That was the warmonger scare—perhaps the
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  most successful stunt there has ever been in the history of British politics to get votes.
  Mr. G. A. Pargiter: Has the hon. Gentleman never heard of the Red Letter?
  Mr. Harold Davies: Red meat!
  Mr. Maclean: I would rather have red meat than the Red Flag, which most hon. Members opposite seem to prefer.
  To return to the China scare. To give him his due, the Leader of the Opposition has not gone as far as some of his more enthusiastic back benchers would have liked. It is true that he stopped short of putting down a Motion censuring what is virtually his own foreign policy. But, as is so often true of half measures, he has gone quite far enough to make himself look perfectly ridiculous. And, what is much more important, he has for purely party reasons jeopardised the whole principle of national unity where matters of vital importance are at stake.
  I said "for purely party reasons," but it is not even that. The Motion that is before the House—this hybrid Motion which has been cooked up and tabled—is the direct result of the various stresses and strains that exist inside the Labour Party. It is a sop to the yapping Cerberus who sits for Ebbw Vale. It is intended to appease the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), who admits quite frankly that, wherever anybody else might stand, he himself stands on the side of the Communists.
  If we lived in more peaceful times, if the issues involved were less vital, a shabby political expedient of this kind would, at a pinch, be understandable, even excusable; but we do not live in peaceful times and the issues involved affect the survival not only of this country but of the whole of Western civilisation. And I must say that, in the circumstances, I find it incredible that a patriotic man like the present leader of the Opposition should lend himself to such low-down manoeuvres.
  The situation in the Far East is, after all, clear enough. In Korea, we have a case of flagrant aggression committed by the North Koreans, aided and abetted by the Chinese and the Russians. We have allied soldiers being killed and wounded

  1009
  by the Communists. We have allied prisoners of war being shot by them in cold blood. And yet there is an important section of the Labour Party who seek to condone this aggression and who try to confuse the issue by making out that the Americans are the aggressors and the Chinese are the aggrieved party.
  Even the former Foreign Secretary talks about the danger of provoking the Chinese by imputing to them unworthy motives. It never occurs to him for a moment to think whether the Chinese have not provoked us. Hon. Gentlemen opposite try to ignore the plain, inescapable fact that for over a year the Chinese have been killing our lads in Korea. They raise their hands in horror at the idea of any retaliatory measures against China.
  Mr. T. Driberg: Thanks to MacArthur.
  Mr. Maclean: In fact, they advocate a policy of total appeasement towards the so-called People's Democratic Republic of China, which shows its popular nature and its democratic character by massacring hundreds of thousands of its unfortunate citizens in the best totalitarian style. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said that any railwayman, any agricultural worker, if he were in China would be a Communist. What about all these hundreds of Chinese who are massacred? What about them? Were they all wicked capitalists and Fascists? There were an awful lot of them if they were.
  And it is to pacify this lunatic fringe, to appease these arch-appeasers that the Leader of the Opposition has tabled a Motion of censure on the Prime Minister. Just what has my right hon. Friend done to merit this personal attack? There is his speech to Congress, first of all. By it, by promising "prompt, resolute and effective action" in case of any further Chinese aggression he did two things. First of all, he dashed Russian and Chinese hopes of a breach between Great Britain and America—hopes which had risen very high under the last Administration. Secondly, he gave Stalin and Mao Tse Tung a clear warning of the consequences of any further attempts to extend their Asiatic Empire.
  1010
  Personally, I can think of no greater, no more effective contribution to the cause of world peace. I think all parties in the House are agreed in not wanting to see an extension of the war in the Far East if it can possibly be avoided. I believe all parties are equally anxious to see a cessation of hostilities there. What some hon. Members tend to forget is that whether or not the war in the Far East is continued or extended does not depend exclusively on the Western Powers. It also depends on Stalin and Mao Tse Tung.
  At the present time, the enemy are reinforcing in a big way in Korea. If, as seems very possible, fighting flares up there again, are we simply to abandon everything we have fought for? If the Chinese, as they may well do, invade Indo-China or Burma, if they attack Hong Kong, are we still to do nothing? Are we still to stop our aircraft from operating across the Chinese border? No; quite clearly we should have to strike back and, that being so, it is far better that everybody concerned should know the position in advance. Prevention is far better than cure.
  What we have to do is to deter the Chinese from starting anything in the first place. That we can best do by demonstrating the unshakable strength of our alliance with America and by ensuring that the Chinese understand what will happen to them if they do attack. That is exactly what the Prime Minister has done by his speeches here and in America. As he himself said,
  "We have secured a better chance of reaching an agreement [with the Communists in Korea] by making it plain that the United States and Britain are working together in true comradeship and, that in the event of a treacherous renewal of war, would together take prompt, resolute and effective action."
  It is for doing that, that he is now being subjected to this attack.
  What have hon. and right hon. Members opposite done? They have done something quite different. They have done their best to give an impression of disunity—of British disunity and of Anglo-American disunity—by their silly yammering, they have strengthened the hand of Mr. Taft, about whom they say they are so worried, and of the other isolationists in the United States. And they have encouraged the Chinese to believe

  1011
  that they can continue their career of aggression with impunity. In other words, they have, by their conduct, not diminished but increased the risk of war.
  I say that if there is to be a vote of censure, it should be on hon. Members opposite and on their leaders.
  7.38 p.m.
  Mr. J. Grimond: Before I comment on some of the points made by the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. F. Maclean), with many of which I agree, I want to say a word or two about the speech of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). I agreed in some considerable measure with the latter part of his speech. I think, however, that the implications of many of the views which he put forward are not fully understood, and particularly, perhaps, not entirely understood by his own followers.
  The right hon. Gentleman stressed, for instance, the need to increase the happiness, the welfare and the standards of living of the poorer people throughout the world. I entirely agree, and I was very glad to hear what is being done by the Government, as explained by the Minister of State. But in the long run, the standards of living and the welfare of those people will be increased by allowing them to make more use of the raw materials which their countries provide and by allowing them to make manufactured goods. We should not deceive ourselves. It means that we shall not be able to obtain those raw materials and food to the extent which we should like and that we shall face more competition from those countries with our own industries.
  What I think should be put fairly before the working people as well as the better-off people of this country is this: if we are sincere in our desires to raise the standards of living of millions of people throughout the world, it is not just a question of a few Colombo Plans and a few million pounds handed out for this or that purpose. It is a question of facing the fact that at the moment we are a better-off nation and we must forgo some advantages and face some considerable inconvenience and competition if the standards of these people are to be raised.
  1012
  Secondly, we cannot afford to leave a vacuum in these countries. The concept of Empire is now perhaps rightly suspect, but our obligations are not over when we give self-government to a country. We have an obligation towards them for their education and economic development, and I sometimes wonder if we have not gone too far back from the ideals expressed by Mr. Kipling.
  Is there not a very great need today for the young men of this country to go out to the Far East and to Africa to take service not necessarily with our Government but with the United Nations and the Governments of those countries themselves and to fill that vacuum which must exist if one hands over a country like Burma or the Dutch East Indies to their own people, who have no experience in the conduct of affairs?
  The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale referred to the very serious state of Europe and I agree with, though not in laying the blame largely at the door of the United States. If the Government are to be censured at all in this debate they are very much open to criticism for some of their European decisions. Apart from the military value to the European Army, there would have been a great psychological value if they have pledged a contingent of British troops to serve in Europe for a definite and prolonged time. By so doing we should strengthen the hands of democratic forces in France and the hands of Dr. Adenauer, and would encourage the people throughout Europe who are trying to build up unity and self-respect among European nations.
  Whatever the dangers—and I agree there are great dangers in re-arming Germany and I should not like to see a German General Staff revived—do not let us make the mistake of failing to support moderate elements in Germany when they are in power, and thus run the risk of the rise of immoderate elements later.
  The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale also referred to speeches by Mr. Foster Dulles and the effect that it might have had inside the Soviet Union. They might have some effect there, but to my mind far more serious is the effect of these speeches in the free countries themselves. Communism does not exist only behind the Iron Curtain. It is the alternative throughout the free countries of the world

  1013
  and has a great following in Europe and the Far East. The danger of these speeches is not that they will influence Russian policy, which is determined by other and long-term objectives: it is the effect they may have in weakening confidence within the free world.
  In the early part of the speech of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale I must confess that there seemed to me some whistling to keep up confidence. Now we know that we were committed by the late Government to drastic action within Chinese territory whether the truce was broken or not. The right hon. Gentleman indicated that what the Prime Minister told us might be inaccurate, but we had it confirmed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham. South (Mr. H. Morrison). Whatever papers are laid or not laid before the House, the late Government committed themselves to retaliatory action outside Korea in the event of certain things taking place. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale spoke of Lord North. I should have thought that that was an example of secret diplomacy which might well have been undertaken by Lord North.
  Whether papers are laid on the Table or not is secondary. Whatever anxiety there is about that, it is nothing to the anxiety of the people of this country when they read the statement, not by the Prime Minister, but by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South. I am entirely with him in his dislike of ideological war, but I must confess that ideology in foreign affairs is much more often brought in from the extreme Left than the Right.
  I was rather surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South, in moving this Motion attacking the Conservative Party for being warmongers. In the Conservative Party, as in other parties, there are many shades of opinion. Far be it for me to demand unity in a party. But in recent history many of us think this country was brought to war not by the warmongering of the Conservative Party but by their ostrich-like and pathetic belief in the pacific intention of the dictators.
  As for imperialism, the Conservative Party were the party who gave us the India Bill and gave up the Irish bases. Certainly, these were not examples of im-
  1014
  perialism, and there is certainly something in the continual whipping they have received from Lord Beaverbrook for their very lack of interest in the Commonwealth and in imperialist ideals.
  I regret this Motion because I think it will have the very opposite effect to that desired by the Labour Party. The aims of foreign policy today, as in the time of the late Government—and as they should be—are that we should be strong enough to deter aggression on one hand and that we should be able to build up the welfare of the free nations on the other. But in both these jobs, and not only in the job of defence, we must have whole-hearted co-operation between the Commonwealth and the United States.
  I would impress upon people who attach the greatest importance to building up the standard of life in the Far East that this is impossible without a large influx of American capital. I should like to say to the Americans that they must shake out of themselves their prejudice against Commonwealths like the British Commonwealth. Imperialist they may have been, but they now play a useful part in holding together and building up the welfare of the world as a whole and we desire the United States to co-operate with us throughout our Commonwealth as well as outside it.
  It would be disastrous if anything were to be done which would seriously weaken that co-operation. Furthermore, it would be disastrous if by this Motion we gave the impression that we were going to pull back in any way in the Far East. I am not one of those people who think that there is a very pressing danger of a major war in Europe, but I think there is a danger of a series of Korean attacks throughout the Middle and Far East.
  I should like to spend a little time in commenting upon the much quoted speech of General Bradley. I must say I am surprised at the agreement it provoked. He said that war in China would be a war against the wrong nation at the wrong time, and so on. Undoubtedly, the habit of conducting our diplomacy by public speech is one of the most serious handicaps from which we suffer. Let us think of the effect this speech would have had on us if it had been made by a Russian. We would have said that it implied a Russian intention to prosecute

  1015
  the right war at the right time against the right nation, and we would be much inclined to rejoice if they found themselves pinned down in a place in which, obviously, they did not want to fight.
  Mr. Mayhew: As I shall say if I am lucky enough to be called, this excellent phrase was initiated not by General Bradley but by myself some four months earlier in the United States. Therefore, I feel I can speak on this subject with some authority and I assure the hon. Member that if he had been in the United States at that time, speaking on this subject against General MacArthur, he would have found that the phrase was an extremely powerful one and helped the cause of limiting the war.
  Mr. Grimond: I daresay it had an excellent effect in America, but what I am doubtful about is its effect in Russia. After all, we have no reason to suppose that speeches made in America will be reported only in that country. After all, we should not be having this debate here tonight if they were.
  I hope that the approval shown to this phrase does not mean we are in any way lessening our determination to maintain our interest in the Far East. It seems to me that at any rate one set of opinions behind the sort of remarks made by Mr. Taft and others is the feeling of many Americans that, if Chiang Kai-shek is willing to have a go at the mainland of China, why not try to fight the war with his men instead of American boys?
  I do not believe we should necessarily assume that it shows on the part of Americans a desire to fight a bigger war themselves. I am certain that behind it is partly the desire to get someone else to take part of the responsibility of a war in China, and that, if Chiang Kai-shek is willing to do so, let him try. I believe that that is a very dangerous state of mind, but I do not think we are going to abate that state of mind by showing any signs of pulling back in the Far East.
  Incidentally, I should like some further enlightenment as to what now are the permanent arrangements for discussing political matters between the members of the United Nations concerning the Far East and whether the method by which decisions are reached concerning political
  1016
  and military matters has been altered and improved.
  The second reason why we should not lessen our influence in that area is that it is of immense importance to the Commonwealth. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are very intimately concerned with what happens in the North Pacific. The third reason is that I believe that peace is still indivisible. That, I think, is a Russian phrase. If we are to ask the Americans and other nations to assist us in Europe it is up to us to play our part in areas that seem far away from us today, but which are of the greatest importance to our Commonwealth. To my mind, just because we have a different approach to the Far East from that of the United States, we should be prepared to play, if anything, a rather greater part, and not put too much stress on keeping our powder dry for a hypothetical war in Europe which may never break out.
  Peace and prosperity throughout the Pacific area are very much a British interest, and it must rest in the first place on a feeling of security. I think that we ought to be very careful to define what are our interests, and not only our interests but those of the free world. I think we should make it very clear that we are bound to resist any attack not only on those places for which we are responsible but on Burma, on French Indo-China, and on any of the free countries in that area. But the destruction or even the permanent enfeeblement of China is not a British interest, and is not an interest of the free world; and I am very glad to hear that point of view, as I understand it, re-affirmed by the Government.
  Mr. Kennan's book has pointed out that the tendency of democracies, once they begin to engage in war, is to attach great moral indignation to their fighting. That makes it very difficult for a democracy to take on a war of limited objectives. It makes it, I think, very difficult for a democracy to say that there can be any benefit in not completely crushing its enemy. But I think Mr. Kennan is right in saying that, probably, if we were to have history over again, we would treat Germany more fairly than even we did after the 1914–18 war. I think that certainly, in the instance of Korea, and probably other similar wars carried out in the Far East, they must

  1017
  inevitably be wars with limited objectives, and, therefore, we should if possible keep out of them moral and ideological overtones.
  Though I hold no brief at all for Communist China, I believe that the only hope for the Chinese is in a gradual change within their own country, and I am sure it would be not an advantage but a very heavy disadvantage for the free world if they were faced not only with an attack on that country but with a totally disrupted China, a China completely defeated by atomic warfare or turned into a state of complete internal chaos.
  By all means let us stand up and defend our legitimate interests in the Far East, but let us not become either permanently embroiled in China or seduced into thinking that it is a British interest completely to smash up the existing fabric in the Far East—in China or Japan—until at least we have something, which we have not at the moment, to put in its place.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew: The Government, by drawing a limited commitment by the previous Government—by drawing this red herring—across the trail, have attempted to divert the House from the real problem we have to face, namely, the problem set for Britain and for world peace by the trend in opinion in certain sections of the United States towards spreading the war in China.
  What is said by Mr. Foster Dulles and what is being defended by the Prime Minister tonight is something quite different from the specific, limited commitment in certain eventualities which had been given by the previous Government. This commitment was given subject to consultation and was directly connected with military operations already going on in Korea.
  But the real problem is this trend in United States opinion, and it presents a problem which no reasonable person surely can deny. We cannot just dismiss statements such as those read out and made by Mr. Foster Dulles. Those opinions are not shared by the United States Administration. They, I am sure, would not claim Mr. Foster Dulles as one of their members.
  Captain Christopher Soames rose—
  Mr. Mayhew: I know the argument on that point, and I cannot give way; but it is important opinion.
  If we wish to find an effective attack on the ideas of Mr. Foster Dulles and, I think, of Mr. Taft, we find that they are made, as often as not, by members of the United States Administration.
  Captain Soames: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that Mr. Foster Dulles can no more speak for the American Administration than can the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) for the Socialist Party?
  Mr. Mayhew: No, again, the hon. and gallant Member is mistaken in the opposite direction.
  It is quite impossible to regard Mr. Foster Dulles simply as a private individual, for various reasons. He holds a position of responsibility in the United States of America. Equally, however, it is wrong to consider him a member of the United States Administration, and I think it is unfair to the United States Administration not to point out that the most vigorous and effective critics of the views of Mr. Foster Dulles have often come from within the Administration itself.
  The point tonight is: Have the Government shown any signs at all that they recognise that this problem exists? What measures have they taken or are they proposing to lessen the influence of these people? Do they understand that the Prime Minister, in his visit to the United States, did, in fact, whatever his intention, give aid and comfort to those who hold these views?
  Nothing that the Prime Minister has said—and he laid false trails in his speech —gives us any reassurance on these points. It is the judgment, I think, in many quarters of the House and in public opinion, that we should go all out for an armistice in Korea, and that it would be neither wise nor morally justified to spread the war there; that such action would not shorten the war but prolong it, and, perhaps prolong it almost indefinitely; that it would cost more lives, British, American, Chinese and Korean, and that it would destroy the West's political influence in Asia. It would also be strategically foolish.
  On the subject of the strategy, may I for the record make one point clear. I

  1019
  have here a news cutting dated 12th January, 1951, from the "Louisville Courier," which quotes me as stating, during a speaking tour in U.S.A.:
  "We, the British, are not prepared to play into Russia's hands by committing more of our limited military resources against China; tying up in the wrong places at the wrong time against the wrong country."
  Naturally, I was most satisfied that within four months this phrase which I had used should be picked up by General Bradley. I was even more gratified when the idea penetrated the understanding of even the Prime Minister, and was commended to my hon. Friends and myself most warmly in a recent statement in the House.
  Though it may seem churlish, let me make this point to the Prime Minister. He would do much better explaining the British point of view to the Americans than learning the British point of view from an American source in order to lecture us about it in this House, especially when the lecture originates from ourselves. I would also like to make this point. My speeches there, like those of many Members of the House, were made under the auspices of the British Information Services.
  It seems to me a supreme folly, at a time when it was never more necessary to explain the British point of view in the United States, that among their foolish cuts the Government should include cutting of B.I.S. Every time the Prime Minister goes to America the British Information Services becomes more necessary to explain the muddles and clear up the mess, and I say that, not only in going to America and making ill-advised speeches but in cutting the British Information Services as well he seems to be over doing it altogether. There really is a problem in the growing trend of opinion in certain quarters of the United States towards spreading the war. It is a problem which the Government must understand, face, and remedy; but it is this problem which this Government seems to have difficulty in understanding and no intention of remedying.
  May I now turn to a very different subject? Because the problem which I have just been discussing is the most immediate and urgent one, there is the danger of thinking that the impatience
  1020
  of certain Americans is the only, or the main, threat to world peace or to peace in Asia today. But we have also to face the fact, as responsible people, that China, allied with the Soviet Union, has the aim of driving all Western influence out of Asia.
  I do not think many of us would contest that they want to avoid world war, but from their acts and speeches it cannot be doubted, but that they have the aim of destroying Western influence in Asia, of using nationalism to combat the West, and subsequently, we can hardly doubt, of using Communist forces to oust the nationalist forces in the so-called liberated countries. We have to face this problem because we cannot avoid responsibilities in Asia. In India, in Burma and in Korea, as Members of the United Nations, and as members of the Commonwealth, we cannot avoid facing this fact.
  This is surely the whole difficulty of our problem. If we had only to deal with the problem of the rising impatience of certain sections of United States opinion our foreign policy would be clear and simple, and we need not have any controversy about it. But the difficulty and danger is that in the minds of these Communists, in the minds of the Chinese and the Russians, side by side with fear is ambition. The same doctrines that make them fear the West make them hate the West and wish to destroy the Western régimes. The desire for security in the minds of Chinese and Soviet Communists is almost indistinguishable from the drive to expand, the drive for world power. The way they think, those two things are almost indistinguishable, and that is the problem we have to face.
  We must, therefore, have a twofold approach to solving this problem. We have on the one hand to have policies of conciliation, restraint and patience—really trying to get into the minds of the Communists in China and Russia; trying to look at things from their point of view; trying to estimate what the impact of our actions will be on them; showing them by all possible means that we have no intention of forcing war upon them; showing them by every possible means that ours is a policy of live and let live; and strengthening democracy in countries outside the Communist orbit by measures of economic aid.

  1021
  That is one way in which we can deal with this menace. But, equally, there is the second approach—the approach of making it perfectly plain that clear-cut aggression will be resolutely resisted. We cannot have one approach without the other, and the whole task of foreign affairs today is surely to try to balance these factors which often conflict with each other to an awkward degree, but which are both necessary if we are to increase the chances of avoiding war.
  We have not always succeeded in this in the past. We have only to look at Korea itself to see the mistakes made by the Western Powers under both these headings. We made a mistake under the first heading, of the need for patience and imagination, when, after crossing the 38th Parallel, the United Nations Forces, flushed with victory, rushed up to the northern frontier without sufficiently stopping to consider what the impact of this would be on the mentality of the Chinese Communists. A little more restraint there, a little more imagination, and a little more patience might—I only say might—have helped to avoid the disaster of Chinese intervention in North Korea.
  But, equally, in Korea the Western countries were wrong—anyhow, the United States was wrong—under the second heading as well. It did not make clear that it was going to be resolute in resisting aggression against South Korea in the first place. Looking back now to 25th June, 1950, who can doubt but that one of the reasons why the Soviet Union unleashed the North Koreans against South Korea was because they, like many observers in the West, thought that the United States had written off South Korea altogether.
  If we had made clear in advance that such an act of aggression would be resolutely met, as it was met, by united military resistance, that act of aggression might never have taken place at all. Thus Korea shows—and many other examples could be given—the need for a twofold approach in keeping world peace at the present time.
  No one should doubt but that the Labour Party and my hon. and right hon. Friends do stand for both these principles. That is shown in this Motion. It
  1022
  is shown, too, in the six years of Government after the war; six years of Government when this country was, on foreign policy, well-governed, obeying the principles of patience and strength enunciated by Mr. Ernest Bevin. We have got fat more right to speak about the principle of collective security than hon. Members opposite. They had their chance to organise a collective security system before the last war, and they rose to the occasion in the most lamentable way at Munich. Indeed, it was we who led the way to making a reality of collective security since the war, in the North Atlantic Treaty and under the United Nations—things which have helped to stabilise the situation in Europe today.
  We have every right to speak on this subject with authority. We have also shown ourselves ready to bear the cost of defence, provided it is fairly done and not by just soaking the schoolchildren and pensioners, as hon. Members opposite seem to advocate. I think that my hon. Friends will agree with me that it is useful to say this if only for one reason; that we on this side of the House are coming back into power very soon.
  If the impression were given that the Labour movement was not resolute in its intention to resist clear-cut aggression and to defend by all proper means Britain's fair claims and rights in the world, that, we know, would recoil on us on our return to power. I am not thinking only of Communist countries like China and Russia, but of Spain, Egypt and the Argentine to whom these remarks might apply and who might get adventurous ideas and be reluctant to negotiate fairly with us if they got the wrong impression.
  In conclusion, I would urge that the Government must understand that there are two sides to this peace-making, and this Motion calls them to account because on his visit to the United States the Prime Minister failed to make plain that there is a basic difference here between the British and a powerful section of United States opinion which could be disastrous if it were not made plain. Instead of explaining and asserting the British point of view he tried to explain it away, to obscure it and to apologise for it, and this deserves the censure in the Motion before the House tonight.
  8.12 p.m.
  Major Tufton Beamish: The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew, has given us a series of faint echoes of the more extreme speeches that have come from his side of the House. He did not, although he accused my right hon. Friend in a brief moment when he dealt with the Motion which we are discussing of ill-advised remarks in his speech to Congress, quote one single word of that speech as evidence. I would say to him, with all politeness, that he may be able to get away with that kind of act on television but he cannot get away with it here.
  Mr. Mayhew: Is it not a fact that of all the subjects the right hon. Gentleman should choose to discuss in his speech to Congress, his mention of Formosa and of spreading the war in Korea did give a totally false impression?
  Major Beamish: I am glad of the hon. Gentleman's interruption because that is one of the points with which I intend to deal in my speech, which I hope will bring us back to the Motion which we are discussing, and which has been discussed on this side of the House but hardly touched upon on the other side. The speech of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East, was in glaring contrast with the sensible and thoughtful speech made by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] The reason is that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland happens to be a very sensible man.
  I had not originally intended to speak in this debate, but because the Opposition have shown such irresponsibility and have based their arguments on so many fallacies, I am glad, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that I caught your eye. I very much regret the tone of the debate as set by the Leader of the Opposition, and I am sorry he is not in his place because I want to deal with some of his remarks. He tried to blow up a storm in a Chinese teacup. During the 1930's no one can deny that the party opposite took every possible opportunity of making a partisan approach to foreign affairs. I had hoped that the war and six years of Labour Government would have taught them a sense of responsibility. But I was wrong.
  1024
  The Prime Minister today dealt in very characteristic fashion with the unbalanced remarks of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). I want to analyse the attack that was made by the Leader of the Opposition. Let us admit, because there is no denying it, that the speech which my right hon. Friend made to Congress has been grossly misinterpreted in some sections of the United States Press. We can all agree on that. One has only to read the papers to see that is so.
  Mr. Manuel: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has said that the opinions expressed in the American Press have misrepresented the views of the Prime Minister in his speech to Congress. Do I take it that he is making the point that the whole of the responsible Press in America is irresponsible in this particular matter, because it is not only the left wing papers who have been criticising what the right hon. Gentleman said?
  Major Beamish: The Leader of the Opposition quoted "an American writer" as saying that
  "'Prompt, resolute and effective action' was widely interpreted here as willingness to join the United States in such measures as bombing Manchurian airfields.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 838.]
  If those words were misinterpreted in some quarters of the United States Press, they were not by the United States Government. Fancy quoting "an American writer." Who was it—Mr. Walter Winchell? The misinterpretation in the United States Press was deliberately stoked up by the Socialist Party who sought to misinterpret those words themselves, although they knew perfectly well what they meant. They have been guilty of stirring up the very trouble of which they have accused my right hon. Friend of being responsible.
  I do not think that is a very good way in which to help this country. We have been told that my right hon. Friend should be criticised for saying, "We take our stand by your side," during the course of his speech to Congress. Let me remind the party opposite of the words of the Leader of the Opposition on a similar occasion when he went to America on the advice of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. He said:

  1025
  "In fair and foul weather as long as the Stars and Stripes fly in Korea the British flag will fly beside it"
  With those sentiments I heartily agreed at the time. What is the difference between that and what the Prime Minister said in Congress, except maybe that the Leader of the Opposition used rather more emphatic words.
  The Leader of the Opposition wants to know what is the Government's policy to keep the peace in the Far East after the armistice which he agrees, as we all do, should be first settled. When he was in power he never gave this House the faintest indication of any long-term policy in the Far East. My right hon. Friend and the Government have taken the earliest possible opportunity not only of looking towards long-term policy through the machinery of the United Nations but of raising this question when they were in the United States. There is a very distinct contrast here. It is clear to me that throughout this debate there has not been one single constructive suggestion from any hon. Member opposite so far as Far Eastern policy is concerned.
  The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South was purely destructive. In mentioning him, I am reminded of the complete misinterpretation that he has put on something which is going on at present. He sought to argue that the Japanese Government is in process of recognising General Chiang Kai-shek's Government as the legal Government of China. He is wrong in saying that, because only on 22nd February Mr. Yoshida, the Japanese Prime Minister, speaking in the Diet, said that a Japanese delegation in Taepah, Formosa, was negotiating a bilateral treaty which would recognise Nationalist sovereignty only over territory acturally controlled by the Nationalists at the moment. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South, was completely wrong in his remarks.
  We are now told that it was unfortunate that my right hon. Friend mentioned Formosa. The Leader of the Opposition said:
  "The trouble is that there is only one point that was touched on by the Prime Minister in his Congress speech—and I think it unfortunate that he mentioned it—and that was Formosa."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 839–40.]
  What complete rubbish that is! I have never heard such rubbish in my life! I
  1026
  cannot believe that the right hon. Gentleman had read the Prime Minister's speech. Only one sentence in it referred to Formosa, while there were two paragraphs about Korea, a paragraph about South-East Asia, and a paragraph about Japan. Yet we are told that Formosa was the only thing that the Prime Minister mentioned. If that is supposed to be an attack on the policy of my right hon. Friend, it has completely mis-fired.
  It is clear to me from what has been said today and what we knew before that there has been no change in Government policy in the Far East. The only reason I can give for the kind of speeches we have had today from the Opposition is that many hon. Members opposite are beginning to regret the implications of the policy which they themselves laid down.
  I want to say a few words about Formosa and put one or two questions to hon. Members opposite. About 18 months ago the United States President announced that the United States Seventh Fleet would neutralise Formosa, would assure that there would be no attack on Formosa by the Chinese Communists and that troops from Formosa would not move to the mainland. That was described by "The Economist" as a "thoroughly respectable police operation." That was a very fair description, and I agree with it.
  For more than a year the Leader of the Opposition was unable to make up his mind what the British Government's policy was on this matter. As late as 15th August last he said that the Government was not concerned with Formosa. Eventually he made up his mind. The policy of the Chinese Government towards Formosa is not in doubt. If any hon. Member has any doubt, I will read him something from one of last Sunday's newspapers quoting Peking radio, on which General Nieh Jung-chen, Chinese Deputy Chief of Staff, was quoted as saying:
  "We shall liberate our territory of Taiwan."
  That is Formosa. Therefore, the Chinese Government's intentions towards Formosa are perfectly clear. In the same speech, the General made it clear that any liberation of that kind would be done in cooperation with China's allies.
  As I understand it, the main reason for the neutralisation of Formosa is one

  1027
  of simple military security. It is that we dare not allow Formosa to fall into hostile hands while the United Nations is opposing aggression in Korea. Does any hon. Member opposite disagree with that? Apparently not. Secondly, the object is to try to localise the war. Does any hon. Member opposite disagree with that? Apparently not. That is fine.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: A little earlier the hon. and gallant Member was complaining that hon. Members were interrupting him. Now he is taking it for granted that if we do not interrupt him we agree with what he says. It would be better for him to work on the assumption that if there is silence and no reaction to his speech from this side of the House there is complete disagreement with him.
  Major Beamish: All right. It seems to me to be very important that we should find out, what, if anything, there is behind the attack which has been made during the debate, and that is the reason for my questions. My third question is: Is it agreed that the future of Formosa should be settled by the United Nations and not by force of arms? [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed."] Then we can put "Agreed" to that.
  If hon. Members have any doubt about it they should read Article 73 of the United Nations Charter. It seems to me that hon. Members opposite, who may not be in complete agreement with this policy, are rather overlooking the views of the Formosans themselves. Article 73 lays it down clearly that territories detached from enemy States come under the trusteeship section where:
  "…the principle is laid down that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount."
  We can all agree with that. [Laughter.] Have I said something funny?
  Mr. Follick: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is forgetting that the future of Formosa was settled by the Mena House agreement.
  Major Beamish: Mena House? I am not concerned with where it was settled. I am trying to find where there is common ground about this. I was criticising the Leader of the Opposition for attacking my right hon. Friend for mentioning For-
  1028
  mosa at all in his speech to Congress. That has been the main burden of the attack from the Opposition.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: All these questions which are directed to the Opposition are entirely beside the point. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that what troubles me and many hon. Members of this House in relation to the speech made in Congress are the implications which have been drawn from the speech in the United States Press and also not by the irresponsible Press in this country but in a leader, now quite famous, in the "Manchester Guardian," in which the speech was deplored as creating a wrong impression? That is the gravamen of our charge.
  Major Beamish: That is a vote of censure against the Press. I am dealing with the words which my right hon. Friend used in Congress, and I am answering the attack by the Leader of the Opposition. I intend to go on with it. If the hon. and learned Gentleman wishes to criticise the Press for putting a wrong interpretation on words which were quite clear, he can do so, but I want to get on with my speech.
  In these circumstances, we on this side of the House are entitled to ask what all the fuss is about. My right hon. Friend was criticised for saying that prompt, resolute and effective action would be taken in the event of an armistice being signed and the terms of it being broken by the Communists. That was the least that he could say. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why say anything?"] That is what hon. Members opposite cannot understand, and I will go on to explain it.
  Why should hon. Members opposite censure my right hon. Friend for using those words? It is still worse when they try to pretend, when they know it is not true, that a secret plan was made to extend the war. That is a disgraceful and unworthy charge to make. Goodness knows, we have all suffered enough in the war. Not a single hon. Member in the House wants to see the war extended. Those who make that kind of charge are making a most unworthy charge. That kind of charge hurts me as much as any of my hon. Friends, because my own regiment was in Korea—although it is now in Hong Kong—during some of the worst fighting an several of my very best friends who

  1029
  survived the Second World War have now lost their lives. That is the kind of thing I do not like. It is a repetition of the warmongering tactics of the election.
  Hon. Members opposite were taken completely by surprise when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister disclosed to the House—much to the annoyance of the Socialist Party—that it was agreed by the last Government that if certain things happen the fighting could not be confined to Korea. This forced the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South, to turn one of his famous political somersaults, at which he is such an adept.
  Let me now turn to one or two points with which I can deal quite easily from the back benches. Why are we blinding ourselves to possible new developments in the Far East? Supposing, for example, that the Chinese Communists themselves extend the war to the Chinese mainland by bringing to bear heavy air reinforcements against the United Nations troops fighting in Korea.
  The estimated strength of the Russian aircraft available for the Koreans and Chinese fighting in North Korea is at least 1,700, of which 900 are modern jets. It is perfectly true that so far the United Nations have comparative air superiority over Korea, but the enemy have not yet been using the full force of their attack. Supposing Soviet aircraft were used in very large numbers and supposing United Nations troops had to pull back, might that not create a new situation, which would require prompt, resolute, and effective action?
  Supposing again that the Chinese Communists intervene on a large scale with their so-called volunteers against Indo-China, which is so strategically important. I see in today's "Daily Telegraph" —[Interruption.] That is a newspaper which is extremely well informed on the Far East, and I regard their reports as particularly reliable. They report in today's issue:
  "Russian and Chinese equipment played an important part in Viet-Minh Communist operations which forced the French to withdraw from Hoabinh, 35 miles south-west of Hanoi, Indo-China, on Friday night and yesterday."
  They go on to give detailed evidence of the kind of equipment available. I have
  1030
  also a reliable report that something like 250,000 well trained regular troops under the command of General Teng Hua, who was recently a Chinese delegate at the truce talks in Korea, are massed along the Indo-Chinese border.
  Mr. George Thomas: Where does the hon. and gallant Gentleman get all this from?
  Major Beamish: If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence to disprove my facts I shall be glad to hear it.
  Mr. G. Thomas: For all we know the hon. and gallant Gentleman might be making it up.
  Major Beamish: If the hon. Gentleman thinks I am making up these figures he is at liberty to do so, but I ask him to listen to what I am saying and he can check up the figures. It is my believe that something in the nature of 250,000 Chinese troops are massed along the Indo-Chinese border. They are under the command of the general I have mentioned, and the armies are known as the Second and Fourth armies and they have a large reserve.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Who says so?
  Major Beamish: It is quite common knowledge.
  Mr. Silverman: Is it?
  Major Beamish: I am fortified in what I am saying by the attitude of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). [Interruption.] I find it very difficult to speak with you constantly interrupting me.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): The hon. and gallant Member will, I hope, be good enough to address his remarks to me.
  Major Beamish: I was not aware that I was addressing my remarks elsewhere, but it is very difficult to make my speech against a running barrage from a sitting position by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne.
  Mr. Silverman: The hon. Gentleman is not doing himself or the House justice. It is not unreasonable to request, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman stands up in his place and gives a lot of important information of which nobody else has

  1031
  ever heard, where he got it from, what authority he has for it, and if he is not making it up or getting it from his extreme right-wing friends. What is unreasonable in that? Why should he not tell us what is the source of his information so that we can judge of its credibility?
  Major Beamish: If I was disclosing information from a private source, the last person to whom I would give it would be the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. I only ask the House to believe me. Those are the facts and figures about the distribution of these Chinese armies on the Indo-Chinese border, which I believe to be absolutely correct.
  Mr. Silverman: Where did the hon. and gallant Member get it from?
  Mr. Follick: Would it be in order to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman if he himself knows where he got the information from?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of order. I would appeal to both sides of the House to remember that we should allow free expression of opinion from each side.
  Major Beamish: I am very sorry if my remarks are provocative, but I fail to understand why. They are a careful analysis of the military situation in the Far East. I believe the facts that I have given are wholly true and undeniable. I cannot say more than that. If hon. Gentlemen opposite do not want to accept my figures they need not.
  Mr. Silverman: None of us accepts them.
  Major Beamish: But I am going on to make my speech.
  In those circumstances it was obviously very proper that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary should have issued the warning he did when he spoke in New York during his recent visit to the United States. He used these words, and they ought to go on record in HANSARD:
  "It should be understood that intervention by force by the Chinese Communists in South East Asia, even if they were called volunteers, would create a situation no less menacing than that which the United Nations met and faced in Korea. In any such situation the United Nations would be equally solid to resist it."
  It seems clear to me that why my right hon. Friend thought it necessary to give
  1032
  that dire warning was because of the distribution of Chinese troops along the Indo-Chinese border to which I have referred.
  Is there any reason in anything I have said now why my right hon. Friend should be censured by the party opposite? Supposing, for example, a new thrust developed against Burma, a country whose Government is already half paralysed by the Chinese rebels who are disrupting the country, would not that create a new situation, and would not this situation call for prompt, resolute and effective action from ourselves and the other members of the United Nations? It is equally true to say that if the Chinese Communists sent reinforcements to back up the Communist rebels in Malaya in a big way, by land or sea, it would create a new situation which would call for prompt, resolute and effective action.
  The "Observer" last Sunday summed all this up very sensibly, and I would like to read a few lines from it. Speaking about China, this newspaper said:
  "If she breaks a Korean armistice or commits a new aggression in South-East Asia or elsewhere, war with China will be inevitable; and Pekin should be given clear warning of this."
  The newspaper goes on to add:
  "While China should be clearly warned that further aggression on her part means war, she should also be reassured in the clearest terms that, if she stays within her borders, nobody will attack her merely from dislike of her régime."
  I believe that to be a fair and sensible summary of the situation.
  Some hon. Members have suggested that General Mao Tse Tung will become another Tito. I hope he will, but I shall believe it when I see it. After the most careful study I do not see signs of it at present. There is a good deal of evidence that General Mao Tse Tung's régime is coming increasingly under the orders of the Kremlin. I feel that "China for the Chinese" may one day be a rallying cry, but not "China for Chiang Kai-shek." I have never said that, and I do not believe it. It is highly problematical whether Chiang Kai-shek will ever be welcomed back into China at all. All the twisted arguments and Fabian clap trap that we have had in this debate cannot alter the facts which I have given.
  Mr. Thomas Reid: The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows the East

  1033
  very well. The statement made by the Prime Minister today that he was carrying out Labour's policy is against other statements that he has made. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman explain why the Prime Minister said in America that he would welcome it if America and other countries sent troops to Egypt? Was that just a wild statement?
  Major Beamish: I am dealing with the Far Eastern situation. The hon. Gentleman and I have shared platforms in the past and have debated the Middle East. There are very few matters connected with the Middle East on which we do not see eye to eye, but I do not want to be sidetracked to that subject now because the argument would take us too far. This is the first time I have heard the point mentioned in the debate.
  How does the Far Eastern situation appear to sensible people? The situation ought never to have been used by the party opposite as a vehicle for a partisan attack on the Prime Minister. There is no denying the fact that Communist forces in the Far East have a very great military preponderance indeed, in comparison with United Nations forces, and that they have the enormous advantage of working on interior lines. The mobilised armed strength of the Communist forces is in the neighbourhood of 5½ million. On the Soviet Border, the latest estimate I have yet received shows that there are 5,000 Soviet aircraft in that area, 26 infantry and seven airborne divisions, and—
  Mr. G. Thomas: May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to disclose to the House the authority he is claiming for these figures? Otherwise, they mean nothing.
  Major Beamish: If the hon. Gentleman followed as carefully as I do the intelligence reports which are often published by the United Nations, he would have these figures.
  Mr. Silverman: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman saying that they are United Nations figures?
  Major Beamish: Some of these figures have been quoted on many occasions. It does not matter whose figures they are, I am giving actual figures and as far as I know, they are accurate. They were
  1034
  quoted in the "Observer" only a few weeks age.
  I say that some of us cannot help being apprehensive about the military advantages that may have been gained by the Communists during the prolonged truce negotiations which have been conducted with such good faith by ourselves.
  All this seems to me to underline the urgent need for a global strategy to be agreed between all the free countries. It seems also to underline to a considerable extent the failure of the Socialist Party to provide such a strategy. It must be the supreme objective of Allied strategy to win a victory over aggressive international Communism and to avoid a war.
  There are many things that need to be done in working out this strategy. The responsibility for it lies clearly on the shoulders of the Government, but the Opposition has a duty too. The Opposition has a duty to criticise constructively, and not to try to curry favour with an unthinking electorate by refusing to support unpopular measures even though they are vital, and are known to be vital, for British security and for the preservation of peace. I have many friends who sit on the opposite side of the House and I greatly regret that so many of them who belong to the majority of the party opposite—the 75 per cent. or so who are really social democrats—are allowing themselves during the course of this debate to be led by the nose by the Marxists and fellow travellers whom I group together under the heading of the Bevanites.
  I say to the party opposite that the only honest course for them in this debate is to withdraw their Motion of censure on my right hon. Friend and admit the hollow nature of their charges. To press this Motion to a division will be to give positive proof that the Socialist Party is playing politics at a time of national peril. And not only will it give proof of that but it will also give proof that the whole of the Socialist Party is being swept off its feet by the Ebbw Vale tide.
  8.48 p.m.
  Mr. T. Driberg: I shall not waste much time on the somewhat feverish and infantile speech to which we have lust listened. I will merely say to the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Major Beamish) that I am sure he will be as glad as I am to know that there is

  1035
  absolutely no common ground between us on the question of foreign policy—
  Major Beamish: Yes, delighted.
  Mr. Driberg: —whatever may be thought of the general issue of the Division tonight, which I personally warmly welcome, and of the extent to which it may mark or symbolise the end of bipartisanship, as it is called, in our foreign policy.
  There is, however, one point—if I can have the attention of the hon. and gallant Member, because he had the attention of the House for quite a long time—on which I agree with him. I can accept his sincerity and, indeed, honour him for the feelings expressed in the short passage in his speech referring to the casualties in Korea, to the death of men he knew in his old regiment. I ask him, however, in all earnestness, whether he does not conceive it possible that those lives might have been saved, that many thousands of other lives—British, American and Chinese—might have been saved, if it had not been for the insane strategy of General MacArthur when he went right up to the northern end of Korea and, in the view of many of us, provoked and alarmed the Chinese into crossing the frontier. It is, perhaps, unprofitable at this moment to try to sort out the exact responsibilities and provocations on each side, but at least one should not be accused of "condoning aggression," or anything else wrong, if one simply tries to analyse and assess current history as it is being made.
  The Minister of State, in his intervention this afternoon, appealed to us on this side to have regard to what he called the "explicit undertakings" given by the Prime Minister and in other quarters. He seems to feel that because of these explicit undertakings our suspicions and the universal impression, not merely of a few irresponsible newspaper men in America, but of the most reputable Washington diplomatic correspondents, could be set at rest and that, therefore, we should not divide the House tonight. Unfortunately, many of us find it difficult to accept those explicit undertakings at their face value.
  Explicit undertakings have a way of coming unstuck, of coming apart in the hands of the present Government. Per-
  1036
  haps I may quote, in passing and by way of illustration, an example from another part of the world. The Minister of State will remember giving an answer yesterday in the House on the question of the Sudan, in which he said that he had nothing to add to or subtract from a most explicit undertaking and assurance given by the Foreign Secretary on the first day of this debate. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary showed that he realised how explicit it was by adding sotto voce at the end of that passage in his speech, "I do not think this will help me much in my negotiations with Egypt" or words to that effect.
  Mr. C. J. M. Alport: On a point of order—
  Mr. Driberg: I am in the middle of what I described as a passing illustration. There have been long speeches about Ireland, Germany, and other parts of the world. I know the point which the hon. Member wants to make, and I appreciate the motives which prompt him to do so.
  I was drawing the attention of the Minister of State to some very serious statements contained in the broadcast last night by the Egyptian Prime Minister, reported thus by Reuter in today's "The Times":
  "The people were unanimous that evacuation and unity of the Nile Valley be realised, and he assured them that he would not negotiate"—
  that is, in the impending negotiations with us—
  "over the principle of evacuation, but on the means of implementing it and achieving the unity of the Nile Valley."
  That was the Egyptian Prime Minister speaking. If it is true, it means that we are now negotiating, or are about to do so, with Egypt, among other questions, on the question of our recognising Egyptian sovereignty over the Sudan. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] It is no good saying "Nonsense," if words have any meaning at all. That is what was said by the Prime Minister of a country with which we are just entering into negotiations. I do not understand why we should be negotiating about that subject at all. In my view, it ought not to be on the agenda—unless the Foreign Secretary wants to transfer his riots from Cairo to Khartoum.

  1037
  That was just a passing, brief deviation from the main subject of the debate, but I hope very much that whoever replies tonight will be able to say a word of further reassurance, if that be possible, because great concern and alarm are caused when these explicit undertakings are, apparently, broken so soon after they are given.
  On the main subject of the debate, I thought that the Prime Minister was quite exceptionally evasive, no doubt deliberately. He did not understand, or he pretended not to understand, the real point of the charges against him and his speech in Congress. It was not so much what he said as the way that he said it and the impression that he conveyed. The Prime Minister himself, many years ago, laid down a set of rules for young speakers. He said that there were three important principles of public oratory and that they were important in this order: first, who you are; second, the way you say it; and, third, and only third, what you say.
  I think that that applies well to the speech it the Prime Minister in Congress: it was not so much what he said—although some of that was objectionable to us on this side of the House—as the impression he conveyed, an impression immensely reinforced by the unanimity with which, as I say, these Washington correspondents, diplomatic commentators, and so on—no doubt inspired by official hand-outs from inside the State Department and elsewhere—interpreted that speech as illustrating a reorientation of British policy on lines which have caused so much alarm here. It is no good the Prime Minister riding off with a light remark to the effect that he cannot chase up all the comments which have appeared all over America. He knew perfectly well what we meant.
  Furthermore, he was evasive on one particular subject which was dealt with at some length by the hon. and gallant Member who spoke immediately before me, but who has already left his place in the House—the subject of Formosa. What the Prime Minister said to Congress about Formosa may be in itself unexceptionable, although I agree with the criticism by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that it was an unfortunate subject to introduce with so much
  1038
  emphasis. But no one has yet mentioned in this debate the curious phrase used by the Prime Minister in his statement in the House on 30th January:
  "What I have said and repeat is that he"—
  that is Chiang Kai-shek—
  "and those who fought with him against the Communists and have taken refuge upon the island of Formosa should not be invaded and massacred there while the United Nations Forces possess such overwhelming naval superiority."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th January, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 201.]
  This was not the point at which he made that slip of the tongue, which has been referred to already. This was a considered statement, and he said:
  "while the United Nations Forces possess such overwhelming naval superiority."
  Surely the implication of that is that the Prime Minister is now committing us, committing the Royal Navy, committing our troops, possibly, to uses in Formosa to which the previous Government did not commit them. He does not say, "while the United States has such overwhelming naval superiority there," but
  "while the United Nations Forces possess such overwhelming naval superiority,"
  thus implying that, in his view, an intervention in some revival of the Chinese Civil War, on the side of Chiang Kai-shek, would be a legitimate activity for our Forces.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) dealt with the claim that there is "increasing harmony" between the Americans and ourselves. Either that was empty rhetoric or it was extremely sinister—sinister in that it would justify our attacking the Prime Minister today for having apparently surreptitiously re-orientated British policy and re-aligned it with American policy. The Foreign Secretary used another rather similar phrase in his speech. He spoke about "the Atlantic approach." He said:
  "I hope that in the political field this sense of the Atlantic approach to international problems is going to grow."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 5th February, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 823.]
  Goodness knows what that particular bit of woolly rhetoric really means or is meant to mean, unless the Atlantic approach to foreign affairs is an approach in which those who make it are usually out of their depth.

  1039
  Seriously, there is no such thing as an Atlantic approach to international affairs. I know that geography has now been revised, and that Greece and Turkey are on the coast of the North Atlantic. But, what identity of purpose, ideologically or economically, is there between the various Powers on the Atlantic seaboard —ourselves, the Americans, the Portuguese, the various other Powers there? I wish we could clear our minds of some of the cant and hypocrisy which underly these bromides with which the speeches of Ministers are so freely bespattered nowadays.
  The reason why there is not and cannot be complete harmony or unity of approach between ourselves and the Americans is that there is a rather interesting contradiction in the whole American approach to international affairs. The principal motive and emotion in the minds of our American friends is an almost obsessive fear and hatred of Communism. But they have a secondary and by no means inconsiderable motive and emotion in international affairs—an equally obsessive and irrational inherited hatred of what they regard as British imperialism. They have a somewhat old-fashioned idea of British imperialism, which has been cleaned up a good deal in the past six years, thanks to the Labour Government. Quite a few of them still have the sort of idea of it which is held by Mr. Hearst and Colonel McCormick and people like that. These two antipathies are, in a sense, mutually contradictory. The Americans cannot have a show-down with world Communism unless they can be sure that we will "go along," as they say, "at all costs," as the Prime Minister says. Yet all the time they are taking economic action, especially in the Far East and South-East Asia, which is extremely damaging to the British Commonwealth and British trade.
  I say that we should not go along with the Americans at all costs: not at the cost of sacrificing our independence of approach to international affairs; not at the cost of the disruption of the British Commonwealth and British Commonwealth trade—the loss again, it may be, of Hong Kong and Singapore. The would-be liquidators of the British
  1040
  Commonwealth do not sit on these benches. They are the American planners who have built up Japanese export trade on a competitive capitalist basis and have, furthermore, induced the Japanese by pressure to cut themselves off from their natural markets on the Chinese mainland and thus to attack our natural markets in South-East Asia even more intensively.
  This is the fundamental contradiction in the Anglo-American complex, and I cannot see that the Prime Minister has done anything to resolve it by merely blurring the differences and by pretending that they do not exist, as he did in his speech to Congress. On the contrary, that seems to me to be the most dangerous of all attitudes. Several hon. Members on the other side of the House have said how important it is that the Chinese, or the Russians, or anybody else, should understand clearly in advance what we will and will not do. It is equally important that the Americans, as our potential allies, should understand clearly in advance what we will and will not do.
  It is because the Prime Minister deceived them, intentionally or unintentionally, bemused them with his rhetoric, and made them think that we would go along at all costs, and that he would have the British people behind him, that it is necessary for us, by this Division tonight, to record the fact that the Americans cannot have their show-down unless we are in it with them; and that the Prime Minister cannot take us into it with him, and with them, against the wishes of more than half of this nation.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Younger: I rise to support the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in the names of my right hon. Friends and myself.
  This Motion has been criticised on many grounds by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I think that they will at least agree this about the debate to which it has given rise. There was, undoubtedly, for whatever reason, some confusion about the true meaning of the things which the Prime Minister said and did on his visit to the United States, and, as a result of this debate, there will surely be some clarification and some improvement.
  I have only been able to make notes of what the Prime Minister has said,

  1041
  because, in the nature of things, I have not been able to see HANSARD. We have had from him categorical statements in the course of this debate to this effect. He said that he was opposed to action involving us in war in China, and that he had never departed from this, publicly or privately. In winding up the passage of his speech relating to Korea, he said there were no secret or private agreements, actual or implied, on this issue given either by himself or the Foreign Secretary on their visit to Washington, and, when summing up the whole of his speech, he said there has been no change of policy towards the United States, the United Nations or the war in Korea.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that he had only conformed to the policy of the late Government in regard to action to be taken in Korea in certain circumstances. He also said that nothing would be more foolish than for us to become involved in Asia, or for Chiang Kai-shek to enter into adventures on the mainland of Asia.
  I believe that these are useful statements on British Government policy, and I only regret that they were not clearly made some five weeks ago in the United States. They are not, in every respect, however, wholly clear, as I hope to show in the course of my remarks.
  I want, first, to say a brief word or two about the background against which, it seems to me, the Prime Minister made his speech in the United States. It will be known to most hon. and right hon. Members that, for something like 18 months, there has been going on in the United States what they call "the great debate," and a great debate it is, about the fundamentals of United States foreign policy. It deals with issues such as isolationism, the emphasis to be placed on United States interests in the Eastern or Western Hemispheres, relations with the Soviet Union, Communism, and so on.
  Within this debate, there has recently emerged, as one of the major practical issues, the question how far world problems, and, in particular, the problem of the relations between Communism and the free world, can be solved, wholly or mainly, by military means, and the testing ground of this issue at the present time is, inevitably, the Far East.
  I hope no hon. Gentleman in this House will seek to deny that there is in the United States a considerable body of
  1042
  opinion, which we might broadly describe as the military school, which tends to believe that strong military action is the main, if not the only, weapon to be used.
  I am not going to give the House any more quotations, of which we have had very many. We had quotations in the earlier part of the debate, and we have had them again today, from such people as the American Secretary for the Navy, Admiral Fechteler, Mr. John Foster Dulles, and so on. I think there can really be no doubt that there is a school of thought of this kind, and an influential one, in the United States. It is not at all a straight issue between Britain and the United States; it is also an issue among Americans themselves. Indeed, the extent to which some of the best minds in America are at the present time both speaking and writing against the military attitude towards world affairs is, I think, some proof that this issue is a live one in that country.
  How the United States decides this issue is a matter of vital importance to all of us. It is a sobering thought that the political leaders of the United States have the responsibility for guiding their country's decision aright in all the perplexities of an election year. That is a field in which I think we should be wrong to enter, and here I agree fully with the Prime Minister.
  For us, this is not an election issue; it is a matter of national survival and of world peace and I think the Prime Minister had an altogether unique opportunity—and I use the word in the strict sense, for there is no American leader at the present time and no foreign leader who had the opportunity, or could have had the opportunity, of speaking, as the right hon. Gentleman might have spoken, to the American public and to the world, and not merely to the Administration in Washington, the other day.
  He had, therefore, not only the opportunity but the duty to his own people to make full use of that occasion to state the British case. My misgivings about what the right hon. Gentleman's attitude in America might be started before his speech in Congress. They started when I read the official communiqué which followed his conversations with the President of the United States. It seemed to me almost as though Britain had been represented there simply by her Minister

  1043
  of Defence and as though the Prime Minister, with his wider obligations, had in some way been left outside the conference room.
  I dare say many hon. Members have not very clearly in their minds what was in the communiqué. It was not very long—far less than a column in "The Times"—and it was almost wholly military in flavour. It began with one or two general statements about building the strength of the free world which might have been taken to be more than military but which clearly had a military connotation. It went on to refer to the United States' bases in Britain, to the Supreme Command of the Atlantic, to the standardisation of the rifle, to the European Army, to Middle Eastern defence and to Britain's need of steel exclusively for defence.
  Those are very important topics, but one would have expected that something more than a couple of platitudes would have been put into that long list of military subjects to cover the whole field of non-military statesmanship. If that really represents the ratio in the Prime Minister's thinking of military strategy, on the one hand, to diplomacy and statesmanship, on the other, I think it is a very dangerous thing for this country, and I think the Foreign Secretary, who has my sympathy in this matter, had better try to secure for himself at least a small niche in policy-making by applying for the new post of Under-Secretary in the Ministry of Defence.
  That was only, as it were, the hors d'oeuvre of the feast which the right hon. Gentleman was going to give us and it was, of course, the Congress speech which aroused people's fears here and aroused a good deal of confusion on both sides of the Atlantic. In particular, there were those two phrases which have been discussed and have been made the subject of our debate—the first, where he said our response, in certain circumstances which are familiar to the House, would be "prompt, resolute and effective"; and the second his brief phrase about Formosa. The right hon. Gentleman's speech today seemed to bypass any discussion of the effect which those phrases produced. He has now told us what was in his mind, but he seems to think that it was only his political
  1044
  opponents who had any cause to misinterpret those phrases.
  As I said, I shall not add to the surfeit of quotations, but if there is anybody here who thinks it was only the right hon. Gentleman's political opponents or only the Americans who were worried by the meaning of those phrases, I recommend him to look up the leading article in "The Times" in the same issue as that in which the right hon. Gentleman's speech was reported—that is to say, before anybody here could possibly have expressed in public any reaction to the speech—and, at the same time, the leading article in another very responsible paper, on the other side of the Atlantic, the "New York Herald-Tribune" of the same day.
  The editor of "The Times" saw fit to say, in an article, that it would be perilous to deduce from this speech that in the event of there being any new setback there would be automatic involvement in a wider war in China. Anybody who knows the style of "The Times" knows that that would never have appeared had it not been that on a first reading of that speech the editor of "The Times" had felt certain that some such deduction would be drawn. How right he was was proved by the fact that at that very same moment the deduction was being drawn by the "New York Herald-Tribune," in an equally important leader, that we were now agreeing to those attacks on Chinese centres which Britain had so strongly opposed when they were suggested by General MacArthur. That will be found in leading articles on the same day—18th January—in both "The Times" and the "New York Herald-Tribune."
  Since then there has been controversy in many responsible papers, including the "Manchester Guardian" and the "Economist," finally ending with the debate in Congress when the right hon. Gentleman was accused of "double-talk." I do not think I would be exaggerating if I described that situation by saying that the right hon. Gentleman certainly cannot be congratulated on having clarified Anglo-American relations on this subject.
  The Prime Minister went further on that line today, and I want to say a word or two about those two phrases—first of all the one about a response
  "prompt, resolute and effective."

  1045
  We have been told by the right hon. Gentleman that he meant by that no change from the policy of the previous Administration. He described the policy of the previous Administration—and I have got it as nearly as possible verbatim—in these words to which I take no objection: "If heavy attacks were launched from Chinese territory upon our troops in Korea we would be prepared, subject to consultation, to associate ourselves with actions not confined to Korea in order to protect our troops."
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman agrees with that?
  Mr. Younger: I take no objection to that, though I should like to ask, without delving deeply into controversy, where the right hon. Gentleman was quoting from and whether our United States Allies were consulted before he chose to make public here at least the gist, if not actually the text, of what was, at the time, a private communication to us and an equally private reply?
  In commenting upon that description of the policy of the late Labour Government I should like to point out first of all that, as I have said, this was not issued as a political gesture, as a public warning, but as a private exchange of views of what might have to be done tactically in the field to meet a specifically military situation, namely, an attack by air starting from Chinese soil upon our troops.
  I dare say that that policy is unpalatable to many people, but I have always taken the view that no Government could take any other attitude towards their own troops but one of saying that if they were heavily attacked from such airfields the military must be ready to take such action. But that is not at all—not in the least—what the right hon. Gentleman said in his speech. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is exactly."] It is not exactly what he said.
  In the first place, he made clear in his own speech that he made this statement in Congress in pursuance of a decision he had taken to give a public warning. He was not discussing a military plan—what he might have to do in response to certain action on the Communist side. He was deliberately, as a matter of policy, giving a public warning. And what he said by way of warning was
  1046
  "…if the truce we seek is reached only to be broken our response will be prompt, resolute and effective."
  I quote that from the White Paper.
  There is no mention there at all of the condition that this should be done only as a retaliation for military action taken from non-Korean bases. This was not a tactical military measure at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen should not jeer. What this means is that the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to authorise action not limited to Korea.
  The right hon. Gentleman says he associated himself with that policy when he used that phrase. He said it was our policy from which he had not departed, and that policy was related to action not confined to Korea. In his Congress speech, however, he said he was giving a warning that he would take such action, not in the event of attacks being delivered from other territory, but simply if the truce we were seeking was reached only to be broken—a phrase which may relate exclusively to further aggressive action in Korea.
  Moreover, when such a warning is uttered publicly as part of the policy which he has indicated to us, one cannot overlook the possible effect of it upon the obtaining of a truce; and in that connection I should like the right hon. Gentleman who is to follow me to tell us whether it was agreed with the United States that this warning should be issued at the time of the right hon. Gentleman's Congress speech—well in advance of the truce.
  I should have seen very much more sense in it if it had been agreed that some warning would be given, after the truce had been obtained, of what might follow upon a breach of the truce; but to make this warning well in advance, while one is trying to get the truce, and to suggest it is going to assist us in doing so, seems to me very curious reasoning.
  On these points we want a very firm statement tonight, because the right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. If he says he did not make any change of policy, as he described our policy, in words which were his, and not mine, then it follows that he has not, in fact, agreed that any action can be taken outside Korea except in the circumstances in which we envisaged it, and we want to

  1047
  know whether this is correct, because it does not appear so from the remarks he made.
  Then, as to Formosa, he made, I think, a very revealing remark. In describing why he had chosen to make that remark he said that, after all, it was the only thing he could say about Formosa which could be agreed on both sides of the Atlantic. It was not a question of whether it was useful; whether thereby he was expressing the British point of view; but whether it would be acceptable to his American audience.
  I suggest that that was not a good enough reason for coming out with a remark which, rightly or wrongly, has been interpreted, particularly in the United States, as denoting sympathy—a new sympathy—on the part of the British Government for what has previously been quite specifically the policy of the United States towards the Nationalists in Formosa, and not the policy of the British Government. I think that we want to be quite clear, there again, that he has not sought in any way to depart from our policy on that count.
  We must accept from the right hon. Gentleman, I think, subject to those points on which I hope we shall have a reply, that there was no change of formal commitment at all. But was there a change of climate as a result of his speech? I believe that there was. I think that it is clear, from the many statements made by leading Americans since the right hon. Gentleman's visit, that those leading United States spokesmen are not taking more account than they did before of the British point of view. And no wonder. Because he did not trouble to express the British point of view when he spoke to the American public.
  I would submit to the House that, quite as alarming as these particular, ill-chosen phrases, was the Prime Minister's omission to set out what is distinctive in his country's policy. I believe he was perfectly right in the early part of his speech to emphasise the unity of our two countries. There was nothing new in that. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, the late Mr. Ernest Bevin, on many occasions, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), have all done the same thing in communiques and in
  1048
  speeches when they have visited the United States.
  But I should like to say here that I do not for a moment accept the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion to this House on I think, 30th January that a special gesture was needed by him to convince the United States that Britain, in addition to being good comrades in the field, would also be good comrades at the council table. I repudiate absolutely any suggestion that any special gesture of that kind was required by him. We have, in fact, particularly in regard to Korea and the United Nations' action in the Far East, been exceedingly good and loyal comrades to the United States; but of course, we have not said, as part of that arrangement, that we are going to refrain from expressing our own point of view.
  The Prime Minister has been attacked for the phrase he used—which he has never withdrawn—in a previous debate in this House when he said that we mean at all costs to be friends and allies of the United States. He wishes us to take that as merely a manner of speaking. I do not know how often we are to be asked to take his vivid phrases in that sense. In any case, I think he probably will agree that taken literally it is not a self-respecting basis for an alliance.
  I should like to give the House one more quotation, which is the one exception I wish to make to my rule that I would give no more, because I think this is a particularly interesting one. I prefer very much to the formula used by the right hon. Gentleman for an Anglo-American alliance the formula which was used by Thomas Jefferson when he, as an ex-President of the United States, was giving advice to President Monroe on a proposal from the British side for Anglo-American co-operation at a time when the Americans were the lesser partner in the partnership.
  It is therefore closely applicable to us today in the opposite sense. He ended a long passage, which I should like to quote in full but from which I take only two sentences, by saying:
  "With her,"
  That is, with Britain; and for that today we should read the United States—
  "With her, then, we should most sedulously cherish a cordial friendship, and nothing would tend more to knit our affections than to be fighting once more side by side in the same cause."

  1049
  Then comes this sentence:
  "Not that I would purchase even her amity at the price of taking part in her wars."
  I suggest that is a very admirable formula, to which our United States allies cannot possibly object, for the partner who is materially the less powerful in a solid Anglo-American alliance. We have been entirely loyal to our United States partner in every joint venture freely entered into, but the condition is that it should be really a joint venture.
  Since we on this side have been accused of having said nothing constructive, I should like briefly to suggest one or two of the things that the right hon. Gentleman might usefully have said, not to pick a quarrel, not to touch on sore points in Anglo-American relations, but to put in British perspective matters which are of common concern. In his speech the right hon. Gentleman saw fit—and, again, I make no quarrel with this—to mention Japan. He said only one sentence on it, and it was, quite frankly, an empty compliment paid to the United States Occupation Forces. Surely he realises that there is a distinctive British point of view upon the Japanese Peace Treaty and future relations with Japan; that many things were left over in the Treaty for subsequent negotiation, in which we shall have very deepest interest. If he did not know that, many of his hon. Friends who represent Lancashire constituencies could have told him.
  I think, further, that he should have put the military and non-military factors in the Far Eastern situation, particularly in Korea and South-East Asia, in a proper perspective. We all know that it is extremely difficult to reach a truce in Korea. We also know that it is likely to be even more difficult when we get to the stage after the truce and are seeking a political settlement. I have no objection whatever to the issue of a warning that there will be a United Nations response to aggression. Nor am I under any illusion that we shall earn Chinese respect by being soft with them. I do not, moreover, think that when talking of the necessity of not spreading the war we should think we are the only ones who might spread the war. It is possible that war might be spread against our will by action on the other side.
  I think, however, that if these military warnings are to be issued they should
  1050
  be balanced by an indication that we have equally in mind the other obligations placed upon us by the United Nations' Charter to seek a peaceful settlement of disputes. We should not only say what we would do if there is renewed aggression. We should also indicate that, if there is not renewed aggression but an offer of fair dealing, it will be met with fair dealing on our part; and that the Korean war is not for us, as it appears to be for Mr. Dulles, the first step in a continental counterrevolutionary crusade.
  The Prime Minister maintained no such balance in his speech in the United States. Indeed, the one indication which he gave, as I have already indicated, of his attitude towards the Chinese internal situation was this phrase about Formosa which was taken wrongly, as we now hope we can believe, to indicate that Britain, too, was interested in the cause of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, who in the eyes of all Asia represents counter-revolution.
  If the Prime Minister had been aware of his position as a leading spokesman of a Commonwealth which contains very important independent Asian members and many Asian dependencies he could not have made this gratuitous blunder. I think it is at least as important that he should have indicated that he did not take a narrowly military attitude to South-East Asia either. This is largely a colonial area which could be lost in more ways than by Chinese military invasion. I believe that the political and economic factors are likely to be in the long run the determining ones, and that they are factors which get all too little attention in the United States.
  It is to these factors, I believe—the need for accelerating political progress despite the great handicap of having to fight military aggression at the same time—that he should have called attention. He seems to have forgotten that British policy relative to Asia and the Far East so far—and we hope that he is going to continue it—has combined in it at lent as much economic as military measures.
  The economic question is a very important one. At the recent meeting of the Economic Commission for Asia the Soviet Union was angling for an agreement to

  1051
  exchange raw materials for finished industrial goods, and we should recognise that that is in the long run an extremely serious temptation to the whole of this area, more particularly should we find it difficult to supply the varying needs in industrial products. These are simply examples of the general theme which, I believe, the right hon. Gentleman should have made much more plain than he did in his visit to the United States—the theme of firmness and level-headedness during the military phase coupled with a constant effort to look beyond that phase and prepare the way for a political settlement.
  We all know that in the United States they have a habit of looking for quick results. In the industrial field that is a part of their great strength, but in settling great international questions that attitude can only lead to an attempt to cut many Gordian knots by force. While we sympathise with United States impatience due to the impact of their losses in Korea, we cannot afford to accept that as a basis for our joint policy in the Far East, and I am quite confident that the overwhelming body of British opinion, backed by the overwhelming body of opinion in Europe and Asia as a whole, believes this is the view which Britain should always be impressing upon her allies.
  I believe that it is essential to do so if we are to limit the Far Eastern War, and great credit is due to those Americans, including the Administration, who have so far succeeded in limiting the war in the Far East. It was little enough help that was given to them by the Prime Minister in his speech.
  The right hon. Gentleman, in the opening remarks of his speech to Congress, talked of "the bi-partisan habit of mind" which he hoped would be cultivated in Britain as well as in the United States. We would have been more grateful to him if he had gone on to formulate a more balanced account of his own country's policy in the Far East, instead of which he made a speech which was so faulty in its basic thought, so ambiguous and so misleading that he and his Foreign Secretary between them have had to spend a month in explaining it away.
  It is that policy—which he now proclaims that he follows, as it was followed by the Labour Government and as it has
  1052
  been reaffirmed by the Foreign Secretary —that the Prime Minister allowed to go entirely by default in Washington, and such failure of judgment and of will is something that we on this side of the House are not prepared to condone.
  9.35 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Before I come to the actual terms of the Motion which will shortly be put to the vote, perhaps I may be allowed some general reflections. The relations between the people of the United States and ourselves are perhaps of greater importance today than at any time in history. It is vital that we should understand each other, for only by such understanding can our co-operation be healthy and fruitful, and on our co-operation depends the future of the whole free world.
  By a curious chance, I can claim one advantage, as I think it, which I share with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and also with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. We all had American mothers. It also happened that I was privileged for three years in the war, at an Anglo-American headquarters, to serve under a great leader equally respected by the British and the Americans who served under him—General Eisenhower. My experience certainly is that the very fact of the connection between our two countries is in a sense a kind of danger, for the connection of language and origin may sometimes of itself be a danger, because of all forms of quarrel a family quarrel can be the worst.
  I very well remember many occasions when there were great differences between the British and the American points of view during the Mediterranean campaign, differences not of strategy and tactics, for they did not come under my direction, but of politics, and I agree with the former Foreign Secretary that our American colleagues did not resent any divergence of view, however strongly expressed, so long as it was put forward openly and straightforwardly. But he made one proviso, and that proviso is very important. He said that it depended upon those differences or arguments being put forward upon a deep sense of friendship and underlying singleness of purpose. After all, that is the basis of any partnership. That was the secret of the

  1053
  Prime Minister's success in his relations with President Roosevelt and the leading American political and military figures during the war. That was the secret of the success which he repeated on his visit to the United States a few weeks ago.
  The right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) seems to think that the Prime Minister ought to have taken advantage of his visit to America to lecture the American people from his superior knowledge, on all their errors and mistakes. The Americans are very anxious to hear lectures—they sometimes pay very substantial sums to listen to them—but I do not think they would be likely to appreciate their being lectured in the sense or in the terms to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred.
  No; my right hon. Friend did something very different. He made no change of policy regarding the Far East from the policy pursued by the last Government, but he made a great change, and a much needed change, in the mood and in the warmth of our relations. He did much to re-create the old spirit of partnership that we had during the war. He did much to undo the harm done by the follies of hon. Members opposite. We hope to restore the prestige and authority of the British people. Meanwhile, I do not think—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite will not like a lot that is coming.
  We ought not to forget the significance of the radical change in policy and outlook in America since the old days. Any of those who knew America in the old days quite realise the significance of that change. Bred to a long tradition of isolation, with a deep-rooted hatred of war, hatred of foreign entanglements of every kind, the American people have now accepted responsibilities upon a prodigious scale. They hate war, and if large American armies are now in Korea and if 100,000 casualties have been suffered in Korea, do not let us forget that they took on this job in a spirit of idealism and genuine devotion to the cause of collective security.
  We all remember the thrill when we felt, at the start of this terrible campaign, that there was not going to be appeasement, and that there would be an attempt
  1054
  to challenge this aggression. We all feel in these dark and rather gloomy periods that there may be some slight divergencies arising, but let us remember that they are divergencies of method and not of purpose. Our objective is the same. Our objective is peace, and not the peace of surrender but the peace of honourable and successful curtailment of aggression wherever it may come.
  But this is not to say that British policy should be subservient to American policy. On the contrary, Britain and the British Commonwealth and Empire have their own rights and duties. One of the most vital is to re-establish the power and prestige of the British people at home and overseas, and to rebuild their economic strength. This we are determined to do with our partners in the Commonwealth, for on the self-reliance and strength of the Empire as well as upon the revived unity and strength of Europe depends whether we can, with the United States, play our full part in the dangerous years that may lie ahead.
  It is the independent economic and military power, both of the Commonwealth and of Europe, that are vital to the stability of the grand alliance. No one wishes us to be satellites of the Americans, least of all the American people, but it is equally necessary that we should not, out of false pride or petty logic-chopping, try to seek out occasions for dispute where none exists. Throughout his speech to Congress, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister insisted over and over again on the tripartite character of this effort, Britain and the British Empire and Commonwealth, America and Europe. I sincerely believe that it is under Providence that these three great forces are joined together today. I say let no man seek to put them asunder.
  There are bound to be differences of method and circumstances. The Foreign Secretary very frankly referred to certain points on which Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States had not been in agreement. One of those points was in relation to Japan and her relations with Formosa. He preferred one way, and the State Department preferred another. There was no attempt to disguise this either by the Secretary of State or by the Foreign

  1055
  Secretary. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), who moved the Motion, tried to make something of this incident. I could not see what relevance it had to this Motion, for this matter was handled by the Foreign Secretary, who explained all the circumstances to us. The right hon. Gentleman said that there had been differences of opinion, but the Motion says that the Foreign Secretary has carried out a splendid policy, and it was the Foreign Secretary and not the Prime Minister who carried out this particular part of our relations.
  Of course, there are other points of contact. The Prime Minister ventured to observe that the Chinese Communist refugees in Formosa should not be allowed to be massacred by an expedition from the mainland. I noted that the Leader of the Opposition agreed with this proposition, so there is not very much in this. It is also true that, while Her Majesty's Government have recognised the Chinese Communist Government, the Government of the United States have not. I am not quite so sure how far the Chinese Communist Government have recognised us—but we will let that pass.
  It is true that some Americans—it happens in free and democratic countries —criticise their own Government and even try to embarrass them. That is not altogether unknown here, so that is a link between us. It is true that there are some Americans who put forward dangerous, and perhaps we may think foolish, ideas, but surely we must all be impressed by the control and the responsible attitude of those who are actually in charge of the American Administration. There may be argument about what may or may not happen regarding the armistice in Korea, the negotiations for which have been so prolonged, but there is no doubt that both Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States are united in hoping that the armistice may take place as soon as possible and be followed by a general political settlement. There are other differences small in kind and character.
  We must remember that the Americans in this war have had actually more casualties than they suffered in the whole
  1056
  of the First World War, nor should we forget the heavy burden that has fallen on our French Allies in Indo-China. Very few people realise the terrible cost to them in blood and treasure, and how the difficulties have been increased, alas, by the tragic death of their great soldier-statesman, General de Lattre de Tassigny.
  Mr. Harold Davies rose—
  Mr. Macmillan: I cannot give way, because of the time that has been agreed upon. We, too, have a very difficult and baffling task in Malaya. Do not let us forget that if peace is indivisible, so perhaps war may be, and that it will be no encouragement to our boys in Malaya or in Hong Kong to try to make out that there are fundamental differences of policy between the Government of Great Britain and the Government of the United States.
  Even while he was speaking, the former Foreign Secretary, I felt, was not very happy. He was also unhappy when the Prime Minister was speaking and when his right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) was speaking. The former Foreign Secretary used a great variety of quotation but did not make much of a case against the Prime Minister. He told us that he disliked the Prime Minister's instincts, rather like the man who said, "This animal is very vicious. When attacked it defends itself."
  The right hon. Gentleman soon found the force of this remark. When the counter-attack came, he and his friends were simply blown into the sea. Talk about "hoist with your own petard"—I have never seen any boomerang come back the way this Motion has come back upon them. It was a real knock-out. And what made it all the more galling was to watch the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale gloating while they took the count.
  The Prime Minister, as was his right and duty, summarised the narrative about our agreement with the United States regarding certain possible contingencies in Korea. Naturally my right hon. Friend had to trace the beginning of the negotiations in order that the later stages could be told as a coherent story. He was criticised for doing so, but, since the Motion criticises the Prime Minister for failing to give adequate expression to the policy of the previous Government, how

  1057
  could he defend himself, and how could the House and the country judge whether he had departed from or followed it unless we knew what was the policy of the previous Government?
  When this came, the official Labour Party was stunned. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale was very quick to get up and move for the documents and it was rather significant that the Motion was seconded by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). Of course, the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale would dearly like to see these documents published. I think he would like to get the serial rights for the "Tribune," unless, of course, the "Daily Worker" had a prior claim upon them, or perhaps the "Daily Mirror" might publish them under the title "Whose finger was it on the trigger, after all?"
  This has certainly been a strange and hypocritical Motion.
  Mr. Younger rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Younger: The right hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that he would answer my question, but he now appears to be passing away from it without answering it.
  Mr. Macmillan: The right hon. Gentleman took seven minutes of the time he undertook to give me, so I cannot give way. Taking it at its face value, I suppose this Motion is intended to divide the Government—
  Mr. Bevan rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman is afraid. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman said that it was significant that I immediately raised the question of the papers. It is even more significant that he is not prepared to lay them on the Table.
  Mr. Macmillan: We have gone a long way since then. I thought the mind of the right hon. Gentleman worked a bit quicker than that. As I say, I suppose the Motion is intended to divide the Government, for it seeks at the same time to praise the Foreign Secretary and to censure the Prime Minister. Of course, it is based upon their own conception of loyalty and team spirit. They really think they can drive a wedge between the
  1058
  Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, regardless of the affectionate association between our two leaders during some of the darkest and most perilous days in British history. If they believe that, they are very ingenuous. Perhaps the true purpose of the Motion is not to divide the Government, but to unite the Opposition. If that is the object, I am bound to say that as a tactical exercise it has been singularly unsuccessful.
  Mr. Harold Davies: What have you committed us to?
  Mr. Macmillan: With all their differences, the speakers chosen by the party opposite have only one thing in common: that they seem, for some reason or another that I do not understand, to be somewhat allergic to the Prime Minister. The former Foreign Secretary has never disguised his dislike of him, and has made taunts which he has had afterwards to withdraw; but today he is generally credited with the honour, if it be an honour, of being the creator and inspirer of the "warmongering" cry.
  He tried to defend this today by a piece of casuistry which I think he would not have ventured upon if he had known that he was going to be acclaimed and saluted as one of the leaders of the great Government that, with five years of effort and vast expenditure of public funds, was just on the point of producing the British atom bomb. It is a pity that the tests were not ready last October—or, perhaps, they were ready; I do not know. If the explosion had taken place in October, it really might have been some explosion then!
  This is a foolish Motion. It is a bad Motion.
  Mr. Harold Davies: And a foolish speech.
  Mr. Macmillan: The only benefit of it is that we have got on to a little bit of fresh ground in that great contest which is the big sporting event of the year—the battle for the leadership of the Labour Party. We hope that one of these days the thing will be settled, and then we shall have the pleasure of reading in the Sunday papers, as we always do, "How I Won," by the right hon, Member for Ebbw Vale, and "How I Lost," by the right hon. Member for Waltham-stow, West (Mr. Attlee), or, of course, mutatis mutandis, vice versa.

  1059
  This is a Motion which is altogether unworthy of the gravity of the situation. It is one which has certainly recoiled upon its authors. It is sanctimonious in its flattery of the Foreign Secretary, and malicious in its attack upon the Prime Minister. I think that the authors of it are now thoroughly ashamed of it, and I
  ask the House to reject it with the contempt which it deserves.
  Mr. Harold Davies rose—[Interruption.]
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 285: Noes, 318.

  Division No. 32]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Adams, Richard

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Kinley, J.

  Albu, A. H.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Ewart, R.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Awbery, S. S.

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Ayles, W. H.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Finch, H. J.

  Logan, D. G.

  Baird, J.

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E)

  Longden, Fred (Small Heath)

  Balfour, A.

  Follick, M.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Foot, M. M.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Beattie, J.

  Forman, J. C.

  McGovern, J.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon F. J.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  McInnes, J.

  Bence, C. R.

  Freeman, John (Watford)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Benn, Wedgwood

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  McLeavy, F.

  Benson, G.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Beswick, F.

  Gibson, C. W.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Glanville, James

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Blackburn, F.

  Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Blyton, W. R.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Wakefield)

  Manuel, A. C.

  Boardman, H.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Grey, C. F.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Bowden, H. W.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Messer, F.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Brockway, A. F.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Hall, John (Gateshead, W.)

  Monslow, W.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Hannan, W.

  Morley, R.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Hardy, E. A.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Burke, W. A.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Mort, D. L.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Hastings, S.

  Moyle, A.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Carmichael, J.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Murray, J. D.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Healy. Cahir (Fermanagh)

  Nally, W.

  Champion, A. J.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Chapman, W. D.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Clunie, J.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Holman, P.

  O'Neill, M. (Mid-Ulster)

  Coldrick, W.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Orbach, M.

  Collick, P. H.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Oswald, T.

  Cook, T. F.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Padley, W. E.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Cove, W. G.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Crosland, C. A. R

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pannell, Charles

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Daines, P.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Parker, J.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Paton, J.

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Peart, T. F.

  Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Davies, Ernest (Enheld, E.)

  Janner, B.

  Popplewell, E.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D P. T.

  Porter, G.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Price, Philips (Gloucester, W.)

  Deer, G.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Rankin, John

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Reeves, J.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Keenan, W.

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Edelman, M

  Kenyon, C.

  Rhodes, H.

  Edwards, John (Brighouse)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Richards, R.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  West, D. G.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Stross, Dr. Barnett

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Swingler, S. T.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Ross, William

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Wigg, G. E. C.

  Royle, C.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Schofield, S. (Barnsley)

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Thomas, David (Aberdare)

  Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Willey, Octavius (Cleveland)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Short, E. W.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  Timmons, J.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas(Don V'll'y)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Tomney, F.

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Slater, J.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Usborne, H. C.

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Snow, J. W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Watkins, T. E.

  Yates, V. F.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Steele, T.

  Weitzman, D.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Holmes.

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Colegate, W. A.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Harden, J. R. E.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. (Blackburn, W.)

  Crouch, R. F.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Crowder, John E. (Finchley)

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Bucks, Wycombe)

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Hay, John

  Baker, P. A. D.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Heald, Sir Lionel

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Heath, Edward

  Banks, Col. C.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Barber, A. P. L.

  De la Bère, R.

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Deedes, W. F.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Baxter, A. B.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Donaldson, Comdr. C. E. McA.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Donner, P. W.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  Mollis, M. C.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Drewe, C.

  Holt, A. F.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Dugdale, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Hope, Lord John

  Birch, Nigel

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Hopkinson, Henry

  Bishop, F. P.

  Duthie, W.S.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Black, C. W.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M.

  Horobin, I. M.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Bossom, A. C.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Bowen, E. R.

  Fell, A.

  Howard, Greville (St. Ives)

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Fisher, Nigel

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Braine, B. R.

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J.

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Fletcher, Walter (Bury)

  Hurd, A R.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Fort, R.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark. (E'b'rgh W.)

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Foster, John

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  Jenkins, R. C. D. (Dulwich)

  Bullard, D. G.

  Gage, C. H.

  Jennings, R.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  Kaberry, D.

  Carson, Hon. E.

  Glyn, Sir Ralph

  Keeling, Sir Edward

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Godber, J. B.

  Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

  Channon, H.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col A

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Gower, H. R.

  Lancaster. Col. C. G.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

  Graham, Sir Fegus

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.

  Gridley, Sir Arnold

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Cole, Norman

  Grimond, J.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  1062

  1063

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Lindsay, Martin

  Odey, G. W.

  Stevens, G. P.

  Linstead, H. N.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Antrim, N.)

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W D.

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Storey, S.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Osborne, G.

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Partridge, E.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S.W.)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Summers, G. S.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Pete, Brig. C. H. M.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Teeling, W.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Thomas. P. J. M. (Conway)

  McCallum, Major D.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Thompson. Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Thorneycroft, R. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Raikes, H. V.

  Tilney, John

  Maclay, Hon. John

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Touche, G. C.

  Maclean, Fitzroy

  Redmayne, M.

  Turner, H. F. L.

  MacLeod, Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Turton, R. H.

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Roberts, Maj. Peter (Heeley)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)

  Robertson, Sir David

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Wade, D. W.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Markham, Major S. F.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Marples, A. E.

  Russell, R. S.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Marshall, Sidney (Sutton)

  Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Maude, Angus

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Walkinson, H. A.

  Maudling, R.

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)

  Wellwood, W.

  Medlicott, Brig. F

  Scott, R. Donald

  White, Baker (Canterbury)

  Mellor, Sir John

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Shepherd, William

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Simon, J. E. S.(Middlesbrough, W.)

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Wills, G.

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Snadden, W. McN.

  York, C.

  Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

  Speir, R. M.

  Brigadier Mackeson and Mr. Butcher.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Mr. Michael Stewart: I wish to raise a point of order concerning the conduct of the hon. and gallant Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Brigadier Mackeson), who acts as one of the Government Whips. I am raising this point because I think it would be difficult for my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) to raise it himself—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend has been the victim of an act of schoolboyish vulgarity. It was obvious to a number of my hon. Friends—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I must hear this.
  Mr. Stewart: It was obvious to a number of my hon. Friends that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, not content with the quite natural jubilation which we should not grudge him when he declared the result of the Division, proceeded to add to that by what one might call, I suppose,
  1064
  a technical assault on my right hon. Friend. [Interruption.] With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I am on my feet because you have called me to address you on a point of order. May I inform hon. Members opposite that I propose to remain on my feet until I have said what I have to say? I want to submit to you, Sir, that the gravity of this matter is not the act itself, which is trivial, but the attitude which it represented of, as I say, vulgarity, disrespect to the House and ignorance of the normal politenesses which are required of a Government Whip.
  Hon Members: What did he do?
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: Did not hon. Members see?
  Mr. Manuel: Keep your eyes open.
  Mr. Stewart: If I may say so, for two years in this House I fulfilled the duties

  1065
  of junior Government Whip. It will be within the experience of all who have filled that office that they often had to contain themselves in patience and to sit in silence listening to the very great provocations of their political opponents. [Interruption.] I would explain to the Patronage Secretary—and the Patronage Secretary, having interrupted me, might at least have the good manners to listen to the comments I am about to make; I see that at the moment it is the Prime Minister who is prompting the Patronage Secretary, instead of the other way round.
  Mr. Speaker: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to come to the gist of this matter. I am still completely in ignorance about what happened. I understand that some sort of technical assault was made on the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). He does not look any the worse to me. I should be glad to hear this matter speedily disposed of.
  Mr. Stewart: I submit to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, and I will put the matter very briefly. I thought what happened was in the view of yourself and most hon. Members. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman who is supposed to support the dignity of the Government Front Bench did was to strike my right hon. Friend lightly across the forehead with his hand. I quite agree that my right hon. Friend appears none the worse for it, but I submit very seriously to you that conduct of this kind does not conform with the dignity of the House and that it is particularly offensive when it comes from somebody who is supposed to keep himself aloof from the heat of controversy, but who has shown on previous occasions that his arrogance of manner and behaviour disqualify him from the office which he holds.
  Mr. Speaker: I will now ask the hon. and gallant Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Brigadier Mackeson) to tell me what he knows about it.
  Brigadier H. R. Mackeson (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) made a joking remark to me. If I was in any way discourteous to him, I ask his pardon and the pardon of the House. I offer him my unqualified apology and assure him that what I did was meant in the best possible taste. I stand rebuked by the hon. Member for
  1066
  Fulham, East (Mr. M. Stewart) and his colleagues, including, of course, the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), who sets us such an excellent example in these matters.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, East (Mr. M. Stewart). It was good of him to take up the matter, because there was an assault—a cuff on the head which, I admit, was less dangerous than the last attempted assault on me—throwing a penny—which might have caused great injury. But I accept entirely the spirit of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Brigadier Mackeson) has said. He has expressed his regret; I accept his apology and, as far as I am concerned, the incident is closed.
  Mr. Speaker: I think it would be the desire of the House that the matter should end there.

  MILK PRICES
  10.20 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Milk (Control and Maximum Prices) (Great Britain) (Amendment No. 3) Order, 1951 (S.I., 1951, No. 2065), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, 1951, be annulled.
  I think it would be for the convenience of the House and would very much expedite our consideration of these matters if we could have a general debate on this Prayer and the two succeeding Prayers on the Order Paper. The second and third are:
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Milk (Control and Maximum Prices) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment No. 2) Order, 1951 (S.I., 1951, No. 2066), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, 1951, be annulled.
  and,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Chocolate, Sugar Confectionery and Cocoa Products (Amendment No. 2) Order, 1951 (S.I., 1951, No. 2067), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, 1951, be annulled.
  Mr. Speaker: I think that might be a convenient course, if it suits the Parliamentary Secretary.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): I have no objections.
  Mr. Speaker: We shall, of course, have to put each Prayer at the end of the debate, but one discussion will cover the lot.
  Mr. Willey: I am much obliged. Perhaps I can mention briefly what these Statutory Instruments do. The first Order, No. 2065, is an amending Order increasing as from 1st December last the maximum prices of milk by 4d. a gallon. The second Order, No. 2066, is also an amending Order which increases from 1st December, 1951, the maximum retail prices of milk to the same amount in Northern Ireland.
  The point in which I am interested in the third Order—Order No. 2067 of 1951—is that it extends the scale of maximum prices of classified sugar confectionery, previously limited to 5s. a pound, to 5s. 10s. a pound.
  If I may deal with the last Order first, I think it is objectionable because this does not seem to me to be a time when we should allow manufacturers to increase the maximum prices. If the manufacturers—and no doubt they have proved their case—could not, in fact, produce these lines at cheaper prices, I think the Minister ought to have obliged them to concentrate upon the production of the cheaper lines.
  I think that is especially reasonable in view of the fact that the Minister himself has progressively reduced, and is no doubt going on reducing, the sweet ration. I know quite well from experience what arguments can be raised about this. It can be argued that on a reduced turnover the unit profit margin must be increased. But we have to realise that in manufacture and all trading concerns we have to take the ups and downs. It would have been far better if the Minister had resisted this application to increase the maximum prices of these lines.
  But I regard as far more serious the first two Orders, which increase the prices of milk. I am concerned primarily with the retail prices of milk. Any consideration of the question of a price in-
  1068
  crease of this character must depend upon the policy of the Minister and the Government about food subsidies, and I am in this difficulty—I quite frankly anticipate what the Parliamentary Secretary may be going to say—that the House can no longer place any reliance whatever on anything the Parliamentary Secretary may say. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]
  I will give an illustration. The House will remember that we discussed the question of the Christmas bonuses, and the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary said they were driven to the course they took because of the stock position. What did the Minister say in this House only last week when I challenged him on the heavy stocks that his Ministry is carrying? These are his words:
  "I tried to explain that these vast stocks were mostly acquired up to November last year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st February, 1952; Vol. 496, c. 521.]
  I invited the right hon. Gentleman to apologise to the House—
  Mr. C. S. Taylor: On a point of order. May I ask you Sir, what the Christmas bonuses and the vast stocks that have been accumulated have to do with milk or chocolate or sugar confectionery or cocoa products?
  Mr. Willey: The point I am prepared to argue is this. We are discussing a price increase consequent upon the decision of the Government to keep within the subsidy ceiling. If that is so, then surely we cannot be precluded from considering the stock position, because the realisation of stocks affects the subsidy position.
  Mr. Taylor: I suggest that there are no stocks of fresh milk that are kept. I suggest that to the hon. Member, who is now making his case just as badly as he did when he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food.
  Mr. Willey: The subsidy position of the Ministry of Food is affected by the amount of its sales. If it sells more, for instance, of a subsidised food, then it has to face an increased amount which must be provided within the subsidy ceiling, if the policy is to have a subsidy ceiling. However, I shall not deal with this any further except to touch upon this further point regarding stocks. The Minister last week, also referring to the

  1069
  stock position of subsidised foods, referred to tea. He said that tea stocks were not—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew): I think the hon. Gentleman is going beyond the Order now. There is nothing about tea in this, is there?
  Mr. David Jones: May I call your attention to the fact, Sir, that these Orders are signed by the Minister of Food? Surely it is proper for my hon. Friend to argue that, because of the statement made about stocks, this signature on the Order can no longer have the credence of this House?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No. The signature is not actually part of the Order.
  Mr. Richard Adams: Surely, in discussing whether or not this House should accept this Order we are up against the fact that it proposes an increase of 4d. in the price per gallon of milk. In considering whether this is justified or not we must have regard to the total amount available to the Ministry of Food for subsidies. Therefore, it is surely open to hon. Members to argue that the price of milk should not be increased, but that that of some other commodity affected by the subsidy should be.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think the hon. Gentleman dealt with the larger point. He is now going on to things like tea. We could deal with such subjects for a very long time.
  Mr. Willey: I have no wish to prolong the debate unduly, but I would return to this point about stocks. It is relevant in two senses. One is that the stocks held by the Ministry are worth a certain cash value. Whether that cash value is realised, and so made available, is a matter which does affect the financial position of the Ministry of Food. It also affects, directly, the subsidy position, and although I cannot anticipate what the Parliamentary Secretary is going to say, I am content to leave the matter in this way.
  I will not, in view of your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, pursue this subject any further. But, as I mentioned tea, I would just say that if we have lower stocks of tea now compared with 12 months ago, we ought to be told where the tea has
  1070
  gone, because the Trade and Navigation Returns show that we have received considerably more tea than over the previous 12 months.
  Mr. C. S. Taylor: I really must ask you, Sir, if it is possible for us to discuss the whole question of food subsidies on these three narrowly drawn Orders? I ask that because the hon. Member opposite says, in discussing the question of the increase in the price of milk, or chocolate, that it will be legitimate to discuss the subsidy on tea and other food products, and the stocks which the Ministry may, or may not, hold. Would you please say if we can discuss the whole question of the food subsidies?
  Mr. Leslie Hale: On a point of order. Since the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) has admitted that he did not know which Order referred to what, and that he had not read the Orders, may I explain that they provide for £6 million reduction in the food subsidies? Therefore, I respectfully suggest that the subject is obviously open for discussion.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No, the whole of the food subsidies cannot be discussed. The first Order, which we are now discussing, deals only with milk, and the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) said he was about to finish the point he was making.
  Mr. Willey: I intended to indicate that I was ready and willing to leave the point about stocks, as you say, Sir, but I wanted to deal with the subsidy issue because this price increase becomes necessary as a result of the Ministry having fixed the subsidy ceiling at £410 million. Is it the case that the Ministry has out-run that and the increase is, therefore, necessary? Will the Parliamentary Secretary confirm that?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are limited to the increase in the price of milk.
  Mr. Geoffrey Bing: I think the whole House has been a little dismayed by the behaviour of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) in not appreciating which Order was being discussed. It was agreed when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair that the three Orders might be taken together, and my hon. Friend the Member for

  1071
  Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) was dealing with the third that is the one which deals with chocolate.
  The whole point of what is the right price for these commodities must depend on how many of these commodities there are in stock and can be brought out at the old price, or what profit the Ministry can make beyond this and, thus, for that reason, we are making our inquiry into the stock position. If we cannot discuss the stock position, there is no basis for knowing upon what it is that the charge is based. If there are no stocks, for example, one would expect a far higher charge than if there were stocks in existence.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We cannot go beyond what is in the three Orders.
  Mr. Adams: It seems to me that the House is called upon to discuss the increase in the price of milk. It is quite impossible for us to make up our minds on that issue unless we also make reference to the other subsidies which the Government have to bear in mind because of the ceiling imposed over the whole range of commodities. It is impossible to see whether the price of milk should be raised without discussing what effect that policy will have on the other items covered by the subsidies.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There may be some logic in that, but it is not according to the Rules of the House.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: On a point of order. I had deferred raising this point of order until one of the hon. Members from Northern Ireland was here. I have been very worried since I have been in the Chamber this evening, because one Order relates entirely to Northern Ireland and it has always been the custom, certainly in the last Government, when an Order relating to Northern Ireland has been debated in the House for one of the Ministers from the Home Office to be present to deal with it. That is most important.
  I see that one has just arrived. He has not heard what has been said. I also understand that he is the Minister for Welsh Affairs. There are two Ministers in the Home Office who are concerned with Northern Ireland, and it is an insult to that great and loyal part of Northern
  1072
  Ireland that it should here be fobbed off with a reply on behalf of the Government by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food. This is a serious point. We are not being treated with the dignity that this matter deserves. I hope to catch your eye later, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and make much of that point, because it is relevant.
  Mr. C. S. Taylor: On a point of order. As an attack has been made upon me by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale), and the hon and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing), accusing me of not having read the Orders, and as I see none of the Orders in the hands of the hon. Member for Oldham, West—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not see what that has to do with the debate.
  Mr. Taylor: Surely it is rather a personal affront for an hon. Member to accuse another hon. Member, who is prepared to enter into a debate on these Orders, of not having read them when I have done so and have them in my hand and am willing to discuss them with any hon. Member.
  Air Commodore A. V. Harvey: On a point of order. The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) referred to Northern Ireland. Where are the Northern Ireland Members of his party, apart from the unofficial ones? Not one is here.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There is a Minister here to reply. We had better get on with the debate.
  Mr. J. Beattie: On a point of order. Is it in order for an hon. and gallant Member to misrepresent the attendance of another hon. Member?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point with which I can deal.
  Hon. Members: Withdraw!
  Air Commodore Harvey: I willingly withdraw. To be honest, although I am a fairly regular attender in the House, I did not recognise the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Beattie).
  Mr. Willey: The Minister of Food need not have raised these prices. In an explanation which he has given publicly he

  1073
  said that he has been obliged to raise them because of the decision to keep within the food subsidies ceiling of £410 million. In explaining to the House how it comes about that at present the subsidies are running at over £410 million, he has given us some very confusing figures. The statement attached to the Supplementary Estimates is open to some serious points of criticism.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are not now dealing with Supplementary Estimates.
  Mr. Willey: I return to the explanation which has been given by the Minister of the present price increase. He said that it is necessary to increase the price of milk to enable the Ministry to remain within the £410 million which the Government has agreed should be the subsidy ceiling. It can be said that the hon. Gentleman, and his right hon. Friend, if they are in difficulties always quote precedent. They say that they are doing what the last Government did. The hon. Gentleman is not doing that.
  The last Government, when it thought it proper, exceeded the ceiling which had been set. It is true that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Labour Government dealt with prices, or possible price increases, in the summer during the economic debate he suggested that if there were further pressure upon the food subsidy ceiling there would probably have to be price increases. But the circumstances then were very different.
  My right hon. Friend the then Chancellor of the Exchequer said there would have to be re-introduction of price controls, and we at the Ministry of Food took steps for the re-introduction of fish price control. If that control had been proceeded with, prices would be much less than they are now.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has been a Minister and knows that he is going beyond these Orders.
  Mr. Willey: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who after all, is responsible and answerable for the decision about the subsidy ceiling suggested that in the situation obtaining in the summer there ought to be further price control, the present—
  Sir John Mellor: If the hon. Gentleman states that the Chancellor is responsible for the ceiling surely
  1074
  it is not possible to discuss such matters on these Orders, which have been signed by the Minister of Food.
  Mr. Willey: For the edification of the hon. Baronet, the position is that the Government, through the Chancellor, imposes the subsidy ceiling for the Ministry of Food to operate and to decide where there are to be price increases.
  Sir J. Mellor: Then it is the responsibility of the Minister in these Orders which have to be discussed, and not the overriding decision of the Chancellor.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is true, and I have said so, though perhaps not in such plain language, to the hon. Gentleman, several times already.
  Mr. Willey: If the Government would raise the ceiling these price increases would not be necessary. If we carry these Prayers tonight the Government could raise the ceiling tomorrow.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is a hypothetical question which we are not considering. We are only considering the Orders.
  Mr. Willey: It must be in order to discuss the effects of the annulment of these Orders.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Certainly, but that is not what is being done.
  Mr. Willey: Then let me discuss the effects of annulment.
  Mr. William Ross: On a point of order. Does that decision mean that we cannot mention subsidies; and that the Parliamentary Secretary will not be able to mention subsidies when he tries to justify these Orders?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The point on all these Orders is that hon. Members can only discuss what is in them.
  Mr. Ross: But you have actually given a Ruling regarding the actual mentioning of subsidies, Sir. The Parliamentary Secretary has to try to justify these Orders. Will he be allowed to mention subsidies?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It depends on what he says.
  Mr. Willey: I want now, Sir Charles, to deal with the point to which you asked me to address myself—the effect of the

  1075
  annulment of this Order—and also to point out by way of illustration that there is no comparison between the position obtaining today and that obtaining in the summer when the Chancellor in the last Government dealt with the question of such price increases. If this Order is annulled the Treasury will have to allow a raising of the food subsidy ceiling.
  The question therefore arises whether there is money available at the Treasury to allow a raising of the food subsidy ceiling. I understand that there is, but there was not in the summer, because in the summer the Treasury were proceeding on the assumption that we should be able fully to complete that part of the re-armament programme which had been planned for this financial year. We have now received the information that it is no longer possible to do that. The money has been raised on the assumption that it would be possible, so that if this Prayer be successful, and if the Order be annulled, we need not be unduly concerned, because the Treasury have the money to avoid any unpleasant consequences.
  I want to deal with another reason why the hon. Gentleman should not persist with this Order. As I pointed out the other night, I realise that he is, with his right hon. Friend, a National Liberal: he is not a Conservative. I have tried to find out what are the policies of the National Liberals on such matters as we are discussing tonight—price controls—and the only statement of policy on what we are discussing tonight that I can discover is that the National Liberals
  "believe that it is essential to freedom that money should be allowed to fructify in the pockets of the people."
  Well, I do not know what that means. I do not even know whether I am in order—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I can guide the hon. Gentleman on the last point. I think he is going back long before the date of the Order in what he is now quoting.
  Mr. Willey: No, Sir. This is a recent statement by the National Liberal Party. If the hon. Gentleman pays any regard to what he said to the electorate he ought to feel that now is the appropriate moment to withdraw this Order. But this, after all, is not a National Liberal Administration: it is a Conservative
  1076
  Adminstration. I therefore looked at the Conservative Party programme to see whether they had any mandate for increasing the price of milk, and I find that they have no such mandate.
  I want to keep this part of my speech as short as possible, so I will quote from only one of the pamphlets issued during the General Election. It was headed:
  "It's Up To You."
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If we are to go back to the General Election I think we shall be here a long, long time.
  Mr. Willey: I indicated that I do not want to dwell for long on this point, but I think it is in order to say that the action being proposed, the present price increase, is contrary to the undertakings and pledges that the party opposite gave to the people at the recent General Election. The Conservative Party, in asking the electorate to vote Conservative, said the people were
  "hard up through high prices and fed up with small food rations."
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Willey: Hon. Gentlemen opposite agree that that was their Election policy. It was certainly agreed by all those who observed the election to be the major factor which gave the party opposite their present slender majority.
  If the hon. Gentleman has any political integrity, then I think he should accept what financial consequences there may be, but withdraw this price increase. It is within the power of the present Government to avoid this price increase. When this is avoidable, to come to the House now, after pledges so recently given, is a political disgrace, reflecting upon the party opposite. Another reason why this avoidable price increase should be avoided today is that we are living in a dangerously inflationary situation.
  The Minister of Food, referred the other day to price increases generally and made comparison with the position obtaining before. But this is the true comparison. We know now that the January figure for the cost-of-living index showed an increase of two points. In the first three months of the Tory Administration, the cost-of-living has gone up three points. Let us compare it with the previous three months of the Labour

  1077
  Government. Then the cost-of-living went up one point—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think the hon. Gentleman should not try my patience too severely. He knows perfectly well how far he can go on these Orders.
  Mr. Willey: I must persist in this argument. I am at present being allowed to argue, rightly or wrongly, that the present price increase is avoidable. If it is avoidable, surely, it is relevant to argue that we are in an inflationary position when the avoidable ought to be avoidable.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If we are to discuss all the implications of inflation on these Orders we shall go far beyond the Rules of Order.
  Mr. Willey: I will say no more on this and pass on to my next point.
  If we compare with the immediately preceding three months or the corresponding three months last year, the rate of increase of the cost-of-living index at present it is three times what it was under a Labour Government. That is a very serious inflationary position, in which the Government, if it be within its power, ought to avoid all price increases. Supposing the hon. Gentleman says that, in spite of all these arguments and, in spite of the weight of the case against him, he must have, nevertheless, a price increase to provide this sum to set-off against the subsidy ceiling, why should it be milk of all foodstuffs?
  The hon. Gentleman, if he runs true to form, again will quote precedent and say we increased the price of milk. That is the very reason, of course, why he should not increase the price of milk. It has already borne an increase. When we increased the price of milk on a previous occasion in the summer, and the party opposite did not pray against it, we carefully considered what effect it might have upon the consumption. We came to the conclusion that it would not affect consumption adversely to any marked degree. We were right.
  Although production of milk, as the present Minister of Food now says, was less than the previous year owing to the weather, the consumption of fresh milk in 1951 was greater than the previous year. If we take the two months before the imposition of this price increase, the con-
  1078
  sumption of fresh milk, which is the milk affected by this Order, was greater than for the corresponding period of the previous year. If we look at the position now, though it is early to dogmatise about it, the situation obtaining after the imposition of the present price increase shows that there has been a very serious fall in the consumption of fresh milk.
  If we compare December, 1951, which is the first month after the imposition of the price increase we are now discussing, with December, 1950, we find that there was a fall of two million gallons of milk, which, I believe, is a very serious matter for the country. I believe it indicates that we were right. I will give another illustration which will assist the House in coming to a judgment on this question. We faced then, and will face for a considerable time, difficulties in the autumn of the year in matching up milk production with consumption. We face a difficulty this year.
  The suggestion was made in certain quarters that we ought to increase the price of milk, so that it would be easier to match production with consumption.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: For the last 10 minutes the hon. Gentleman has been using generalities about suggestions made in certain quarters. Will he tell us what those quarters were?
  Mr. Willey: As I have repeatedly told the hon. Gentleman, I have a habit of making my speech in my own way.
  I am telling the House that the suggestion came from certain responsible quarters—[HON. MEMBERS: "What quarters?"] If the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will conduct some research, they will find out from which quarters they came. The argument was seriously made that we could avoid this recurrent difficulty of matching consumption with production by increasing the price. It was for that very reason that we were not prepared to consider that suggestion.
  Milk is not a food which ought to bear that increased price because it has already borne an increase in the summer. The fears which we had about a further increase in price seem to be borne out already, although it is too early to say definitely that this is so. If we look to milk as a food, we find that, for the financial year, milk is bearing today a

  1079
  much less subsidy than was anticipated when the original estimates were laid before the House. In other words, we cannot say that it is because of the increased cost of milk that it ought to bear an increased price. The facts are just to the contrary.
  If we take the unit subsidy margin, we estimated, at the beginning of this financial year, that milk would bear a unit margin of 3d. per quart. The last figure I have seen for 1951–52 shows that milk is bearing a unit subsidy of 2¼d., and this price increase has been operating only a short time. Therefore, it is quite clear that the unit subsidy margin on milk today is less than 2d. In other words, the Government, by this price increase, have heavily cut into the subsidy enjoyed by milk.
  It cannot be said that this price increase is consequent upon the special Farm Price Review. I will tell the House what the National Farmers' Union have to say about this:
  "That 4d. on milk; it goes to the Exchequer. To correct any misunderstanding about the recent increase in the price of milk the N.F.U. wish to emphasise that the 4d. per gallon increase in the retail price goes, not to the farmer nor the retailer, but to the Exchequer. This 4d. increase has no direct connection with the award made at the recent special Price Review, when the price paid to the farmer for milk was increased by only.68d. per gallon to off-set higher production costs resulting from the recent agricultural wage award."
  This price increase operated before the special price award was made. They also anticipated what I regretfully anticipate.
  "Should, however, consumption of milk fall because of the higher retail price, the retailers' income would be less than before."
  I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will not quarrel with the statement by the N.F.U. about the increase in the price of milk. If the Minister of Food had wanted to save money at the expense of the milk subsidy he could have had a look at the subsidy now enjoyed by some of the trade users. I know from experience the administrative difficulties involved, but I think that if he was determined to reduce the subsidy on milk it would have been more profitable for him to spend his time looking at this particular problem regarding the milk subsidy, rather than penalising the housewife and children which is what he is doing by this price increase.
  If one is obliged to consider price increases consequent upon the decision to
  1080
  remain within the subsidy ceiling we have to look at all the foodstuffs. We have to look at the position from various points of view. One of the most important that 1 and my right hon. Friend considered was the nutritional angle. If a price increase is obligatory we have to pay attention to all the consequences nutritionally and see whether they are avoidable.
  I am quite sure that as the old "Radio Doctor" the hon. Gentleman would pay regard to the nutritional consequences of the decision which he might feel obliged to take regarding price increases. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has a particular love for animal proteins because he has already told the House so. He has stressed the importance of animal proteins and gave a picture of the men at the benches not pursuing their work as energetically as they might for want of animal proteins. He said we might get a smaller daily output of work if we could not increase the amount of animal proteins in our food.
  The foods that one would surely safeguard and the foods to which one would look if one wanted more animal proteins are meat, bacon, fish, rabbits, butter, cheese, eggs and, of course, milk. What has the hon. Gentleman done to help the worker to get more animal proteins? He has cut the meat ration. The meat ration is lower than it has ever been. He has cut the butter ration—
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): Is the hon. Member saying that the meat ration is lower than it was last year?
  Mr. Willey: Yes, the meat ration is lower than it was a year ago. Those are the two ration cuts, and looking at the problem of what price increases were to be selected the hon. Gentleman knew that he had cut the meat ration, although the Minister has told us that we have larger stocks than last year. He cut the meat ration and, by keeping a temporary cut permanent, he has cut the butter ration.
  He has also looked to the other animal protein foods. The Minister told the House on Monday that he has increased the price of bacon and of cheese. The price of fish has increased because he did not re-impose controls. Fish and meat paste has increased in price, rabbits have increased in price, and now he has

  1081
  increased the price of milk. There is hardly an animal protein food that has not been either reduced in the amount of the ration or increased in price.
  It seems that the hon. Gentleman has specially sorted out the animal protein foods when he has been considering either ration cuts or price increases. The animal protein food we are now discussing is most important of all. The explanation can only be that the co-ordinating peer, for some reason or other, is determined to frustrate and humble the hon. Gentleman. Of all the attacks that both of them have made upon the housewife this is the most objectionable.
  Milk is entirely home produced. We are all proud that we have increased milk production by almost half as much again as it was before the war; and I am proud of what the farmers have done. I am also proud of the advantage that has been taken to give a subsidy on milk to serve a social purpose.
  What do we find? While milk production has increased by half as much again compared with before the war, the consumption of fresh milk by the working class has been doubled and by the poorest classes of all has been nearly trebled. As for the milk policy of the previous Government, we are proud that by price control and subsidy we have enabled those in greatest need to enjoy the increased production that has been achieved.
  But I was rather worried when I was at the Ministry of Food that some evidence was already appearing that people with large families were not enjoying as much milk as they ought to have, in spite of the welfare schemes. I see the hon. Gentleman nods; he is equally aware of this factor. Therefore, I should have thought the last thing he would have done would have been to increase the price of milk in considering the whole range of subsidised foodstuff's.
  I can only think that by this step the hon. Gentleman is taking a deliberate step calculated to discourage the increased consumption of fresh milk to make it easier to match consumption and production. I would rather he faced the difficulties. He is setting the clock back and marking the beginning of a radical change in subsidy policy.
  The Order clearly reveals the different objectives of the two political parties. It
  1082
  is admitted that we on this side believe that the subsidy should be used primarily, nowadays, for social ends; the party opposite have never agreed with this and they believe that it should serve as some economic device. Viscount Waverley said a few days ago that this scheme of food subsidies was not conceived as a social service, it was in essence an economic device to keep the level of wages and prices stable.
  Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. It was ruled by your predecessor in the Chair, Mr. Speaker, that it was grossly out of Order to discuss food subsidies generally. That reference that is being made to a speech in another place is a specific reference to food subsidies generally. Is that out of order?
  Mr. Adams: Further to that point of order. Your predecessor ruled, Sir, that such questions were hypothetical and would have to be dealt with as they arose.
  Mr. Speaker: I was about to rise to my feet because I thought the hon. Gentleman was straying outside the confines of what was permissible under a Statutory Order. These Orders only permit an increase of prices, and there is a new definition of chocolate. A discussion on the whole question of food subsidies cannot be erected on such a slender basis.
  Mr. Willey: I apologise if I have gone beyond the limits of what is permissible. I will conclude by saying that a choice has to be taken of which foods should bear the increase. Taking the choice the hon. Gentleman has done has revealed the political difference between the two sides of the House. These Orders do mark a difference in outlook towards food price increases, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pay regard to what has been said and think again.
  11.12 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: I beg to second the Motion.
  As the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) seemed to think I said something to misrepresent the intervention he made I will give a specific answer to his question. If he will refer to the three Orders he will find that the two Orders which increase the price of milk are the Milk Orders and the Order dealing with confectionery is the Confectionery Order. I hope that makes the matter plain to him.

  1083
  The Order relating to confectionery increases the price by 10d. per lb., and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, if and when he replies—no doubt in accordance with the new tradition of the House he will postpone his reply to the latest possible moment—to tell us what are the costs that have caused the increase, how this conforms with the anti-inflationary policy of the Cabinet, how it conforms with the detailed criticisms on prices we were subjected to week after week in the last Parliament, and how it conforms with the policy put to the electors at the last election.
  There was some dubiety last night on the question of declaration of interest, so may I say that I have no interest myself in the price of milk. I am 49 years, and for the last 48 years I have not been a large-scale consumer. But my interest in milk was aroused some 27 years ago when I was a member of a county council in a dairy farming county and a member of the agricultural education committee. We initiated a policy of supplying milk to school children if they could afford to pay for it. We supplied one-third of a pint a day to children at a small price.
  We did not do that because we thought children needed it, but because we could not in those days sell the milk. But we were faced with the difficulty that the Leicestershire cows were not fully apprised of the details of what may be called the Orpington theory of supply and demand. There were in the county many families that greatly needed milk, but in the terms of economics there was no effective demand because many families could not afford to pay, and the cows not having been apprised of this, and being probably indignant at the advice of the Farmers' Union that half the milk should be poured down the drain, went on producing and we had some difficulty in disposing of the milk.
  But the substance of this point, which we wish to convey to Her Majesty if this Prayer is successful, is that we happened to have a very active medical officer who took the weights and sizes of the children who got approximately a third of a pint a day, and those who did not get any; and the result of that remarkable test was so startling that I have never forgotten it but regard it as one
  1084
  of the most graphic political illustrations I have ever known.
  The Parliamentary Secretary, who often gave us advice when we knew him as the "Radio Doctor," has often spoken of the beneficial results of taking this commodity; I have not followed the advice in detail, but have well understood that he would not argue with me if I suggested that, in these days of strain, a substantial increase in the price of this commodity becomes a matter of great moment.
  There has been some discussion, and you, Sir, have the advantage of advice from your predecessor upon the subject of the ambit of this debate. But may I inform you that the Parliamentary Secretary was good enough to give the House a Written answer to a Question on this subject recently and what he said was the result of this Order is that £2 million will go to the producers and distributors of milk, and £6 million to the Treasury?
  In those circumstances, I submit that it is well within the Rules of debate that we should venture to suggest that one of the matters which Her Majesty may have to consider if our Prayer is successful is where that money is going and whether it ought to go to that precise destination. In the Parliamentary Secretary's answer there was reference to an increase last May—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—well, I may have got the wrong month, but I think the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that about that time there was a price increase and I would ask him now if he wishes to intervene and tell us—because we were not given the information previously—how much went to the retailer, or the wholesaler, how much to the farmer, and how much to the Treasury. I am suggesting that not a penny piece went to the Treasury. Will the hon. Gentleman answer?
  Mr. F. Willey: He does not know.
  Mr. Hale: It was always the policy of the last Government for the price to be kept down on the principle that milk should be a subsidised item. But the result of the operation of this Order is a tax of 3¼d. to help to pay for re-armament, or whatever one cares to suggest, and that is the most shocking thing that I think I have heard in this House for some time—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Well, perhaps that is putting it a little

  1085
  too high, but it is one of many shocking things. Of course, the Parliamentary Secretary may say that it is not a tax because it reduces the subsidy, but either it is a reduction of subsidy or a tax on subsidised milk.
  Surely he will tell us what were the reasons that prompted the Government to take this action because I understand that the National Farmers' Union does not agree that the price increase was necessitated. We have had some unusual things happen in the House during this debate. We on this side, during the tenure of office of Her Majesty's present Government, have not used the weapon of Prayers against Statutory Rules and Orders at all, although in the last House there was a deliberate campaign of organised obstruction on the part of the party opposite by the use of this procedure.
  Sir J. Mellor: On a point of order. Is this in any way relevant to any of the three Orders?
  Mr. Speaker: It is getting rather wide.
  Mr. Hale: I appreciate what you say, Mr. Speaker. I will put my point as I had intended to put it. We regard it as important because this is the first Prayer that we have tabled since 25th October. We have deliberately abstained from the policy which was adopted in the last Parliament of using Prayers as a political weapon instead of as a means of resolving social injustices and legislative anomalies.
  We ask the Parliamentary Secretary to be frank about this. Even in his Written answers there seems a certain coyness about this matter, an unassuming modesty which we have not come to associate with him when we have heard him addressing a wider audience throughout the land.
  How did it come about? Who decided it? Was it decided by the Minister of Food? Was it decided by the noble Lord the Minister for the Co-ordination of Food and Agriculture, or by the Cabinet? Or did it come from above? Or was it a suggestion by the Treasury, who said that they were hard up? We are entitled to know. I would willingly give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to answer. We are entitled to an answer now. [HON. MEMBERS: "He cannot answer."]
  1086
  I have referred to the fact that this is the first time that we have prayed against a Statutory Rule and Order in this Parliament. If I were expressing my own opinion, I should not hesitate to say that in these days of encircling gloom, when the bruised and battered shoulders of the British people are having new and unprecedented burdens put upon them, when the anxious observer looking with foreboding at the political sky sees only the darkening clouds which presage the gathering storm, when this once the great palladium of our liberties is fast becoming the necropolis of the people's aspirations, I should not hesitate to suggest that we might well be doing our duty by sitting here de die in diem grappling with the problems that confront the nation and with the increasing burdens that confront humanity; and I should be willing to take my humble share of that task. But my right hon. Friends above the Gangway have not yet taken that serious decision, and I bow to their judgment.
  I have this to say to the Parliamentary Secretary. Of all the things that were done in the bad old days, the cut in the milk ration was on the whole the one which redounded least to the credit of the Tory Government of that day. Of all the things that were done, that always seemed the most incredible and the most mean. What they have done today is not to cut supplies but to increase prices, to put a taxation on an essential commodity, one essential to the health of the community.
  I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to face that matter and to say fully and completely to the House why and how and under whose instructions it was done. I have heard no reason given and I have heard no explanation of the Order, and, in default of any explanation, the nation will be entitled to assume that it is a deliberate campaign against the health and the prosperity of the people.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Taylor.
  11.24 p.m.
  Mr. C. S. Taylor rose—
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: On a point of order. Are we to have no announcement at all from the Government Front Bench? So far in the debate we have had no word of what the Orders mean and what their effect will be.
  Mr. Speaker: There could not be any such announcement, because the Motion has only just been moved and seconded. It is for the Parliamentary Secretary to say when he judges it to be appropriate to reply to the debate.
  Mr. Taylor: Times have changed. There was a time when I—
  Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: On a point of order. Are we to understand that the debate on this Prayer is to proceed to its close before we have a whisper from the Front Bench of the Government of any reason for the Order and the consequent increase of prices?
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think the hon. Member should assume that, but it is for the Parliamentary Secretary to say when he wishes to intervene.
  Mr. Thomas: But are we not entitled to an indication of the intention of the Front Bench of whether we can expect any such explanation for these price increases?
  Mr. Speaker: I think the answer is that the intentions of the Government are displayed in the Order, and as to the reply, that will be made in due course, no doubt.
  Mr. Taylor: I was saying that times had changed. I well remember making speeches from the same seat as the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale), who has just spoken, when the hon. Member who moved the Prayer would be answering for the Government in regard to the Orders for which he was responsible. I have to disclose that I have an interest in the milk industry, and I am proud of it. It is an interest in a company. It pays a lot of tax. I do not want to talk only about milk, but upon the chocolate Order, and I have no interest in chocolate.
  The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey), was, I would say, guilty of three incredible effronteries. He had to defend hundreds of price increasing Orders—
  Mr. F. Willey: I think the hon. Gentleman will realise, if he looks back, that on the only occasion on which the then Opposition prayed against a price Order to which I replied the Order was concerned with sacks.
  Mr. Speaker: On these Statutory Orders the debate is strictly limited and I do not see the relevance of this history. The question is whether the maximum permitted price of milk is to go up 4d. a gallon.
  Mr. Taylor: I will try to keep within the Rules of Order, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to answer some of the arguments which the hon. Gentleman put forward before you resumed your seat in the Chair.
  The hon. Member has accused H.M. Government of making certain price increases which are unnecessary. I would say that comes ill from the Parliamentary Secretary of a Government which produced so many Orders that it was impossible for us to keep pace with them. We could not compete with the number of Orders which increased the price of various commodities from time to time. But one would expect increases in the prices of commodities to result with an incompetent Government.
  The present Government has been in office only a short time, and the number of Orders increasing prices, of which the three under discussion are examples, have been kept to a minimum, and are the direct result of previous bad administration. The second complaint made by the hon. Member for Sunderland, North, was about the small rations that have been given to the community by the present Government.
  Mr. Speaker: There is nothing in this Order about rations. It is purely a question of the price.
  Mr. Taylor: With the greatest respect, Sir, all these points were made, with the leniency of your predecessor in the Chair —[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—not a bit. There was no reflection meant in that remark; none whatever. With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, the question of prices and of the smallness of the ration was raised in the speech of the hon. Member for Sunderland, North. A great part of his speech he devoted, not to the present price increase, but to the smallness of the ration of, not only milk and chocolate, but of other commodities such as tea and fish; and even armaments were mentioned.
  Mr. Speaker: I was not here, but I understand that hon. Members who tried to introduce extraneous topics such as fish

  1089
  and tea were checked by the Chair. Certainly, it is the duty of the Chair now to check any further references to them. The debate must be confined strictly to the Order.
  Mr. Taylor: I will leave that point. I content myself with asking: How can we expect greater rations with the empty larder that was left by the last Government?
  Mr. George Wigg: On a point of order. Is it not a great effrontery when you, Mr. Speaker, have just given that Ruling, for the hon. Gentleman in his very next breath to refer to the smallness of the larder left by the previous Government?
  Mr. Speaker: I did not hear that as I was talking to another hon. Member but I now ask the hon. Gentleman to confine himself to the Order.
  Mr. Taylor: I had left that point, anyhow. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw.") Not a bit of it. I have nothing to withdraw.
  Mr. Jack Jones: The hon. Gentleman has just said that the present Government found the larder empty. Is he now asserting that on the morning following the Election of a new Government—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This interruption is also out of order.
  Mr. Taylor: The third effrontery of which I think the hon. Member for Sunderland, North, was guilty was in making a speech of interminable length at such an hour of the evening. Those are the three criticisms I have of the hon. Gentleman's remarks.
  If I may say so, I enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Oldham, West. I took in good part the comments he made about by knowledge of the Orders. As a matter of fact, I had read them; I was fully aware of what was in them. The mover of the Motion began by asking if he might take the three Orders at the same time, and said "I am now going on to deal with the first Order." I therefore merely asked which one of the three he would deal with first. I was fully aware of the contents of the three Orders, as I always am when I take part in debates on the annulment of Orders of this kind.
  1090
  I shall end by giving one little bit of advice to hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: We do not want it.
  Mr. Taylor: Well, I shall give it anyway, and in the best possible good faith. If they want advice on how to run these Prayers they should consult some of my hon. Friends and myself; if they will we shall do our best to give them every help and assistance in the future.
  11.35 p.m.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: I wonder whether, after I have made a short point, I may ask the Parliamentary Secretary to intervene at this stage? It would be desirable as my hon. Friends would like to have an explanation of their various points. I want to emphasise that I find it difficult to identify the Parliamentary Secretary with these Orders, particularly the milk order. I know the position of a Parliamentary Secretary: it is responsibility without power. I feel that the hon. Gentleman, in his particular capacity, should have brought certain pressure to bear upon his right hon. and gallant Friend, who has not the professional knowledge which the Parliamentary Secretary possesses.
  I also feel he might even have approached the Co-ordinating Minister, who certainly has not a small part of the knowledge which the Parliamentary Secretary possesses in these things. He must consider these Orders very carefully. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey), said tonight, he is increasing the price of an essential food, a food which nutritional experts describe as a perfect food. I would recall, and I think probably there is no need to remind the hon. gentleman of this, that a great friend of his, Sir Wilson Jameson, two or three years ago, when he was Chief Medical Officer of the Ministry of Health, said that the decreased infantile mortality must be related to the enlightened food policy of the Government of that time.
  The Labour Government did stress the importance of the consumption of milk and now, apparently, as my hon. Friend, the Member for Sunderland, North, whose memory, perhaps, is more fresh than mine, reminded the Parliamentary Secretary, since the last increase in milk prices the consumption of milk has

  1091
  dropped. He must know that is a most serious thing. We on this side of the House with the support of the hon. Members opposite, who are interested in social reform, were delighted to find that the consumption of milk, particularly in the poorest sections of the population, had increased. The Parliamentary Secretary does agree, I am sure, that must be related to the low infantile mortality rate. I am not making a debating point. I am making a statement which, I believe, will eventually prove to be absolutely valuable.
  If, tonight, the Parliamentary Secretary lends himself to this price increase in milk, it will inevitably mean that the consumption of milk will drop even further. It will be lower again among those people who are in the greatest need, the poorest section of the community. I have not to remind hon. Members that the poorest section of the community is that section where there is a large number of dependent children, who are the milk drinkers of the nation.
  This hits the milk drinkers of the nation, not my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). He has confessed tonight that he had forgotten the taste of milk. There is not one person in this House, probably, whose health would deteriorate because he is deprived of milk during the next month or so. He already has a balanced diet. But the Parliamentary Secretary will have it on his conscience if he allows —[Interruption]. The hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams), who interrupts, has forgotten what milk tastes like.
  Sir Herbert Williams: I drink milk every night.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: I can only say that the hon. Gentleman has reformed since he sat on the Opposition benches below the Gangway and I was the answer to his Prayers. Right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen opposite kept me up, night after night, answering Prayers, and generally Prayers of a frivolous nature.
  I say tonight that, in praying against these Orders, we are adopting a very responsible attitude, and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to think again. These figures are not disputed, and I remind hon. Members opposite that this Government have increased the price of 39
  1092
  foods since they have been in office. Tonight, they are doing this, I believe, without careful thought.
  I think I am right in saying to the Parliamentary Secretary that this is, in fact, what may be regarded as a bookkeeping transaction, which the Ministry of Food have to do because the Treasury expect them to do it. The pressure comes from the Treasury. I ask the Parliamentay Secretary to tell us why he has chosen milk. Why has he chosen what he has probably himself described in speeches as the perfect food, because the constituent elements of milk represent a balanced diet for a child? This must inevitably be reflected in our public health statistics.
  I ask him to take away this Order and think again. I ask him to bring the pressure which he has to bear upon his right hon. Friend and upon the Coordinating Minister, because this is a retrograde step which we are now discussing. It is not just a question of an increase in the price of milk, but of the effect which that will have on the most helpless, most dependent people in our population.
  11.43 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): As I have no doubt whatever that the right hon. Lady put her point in complete sincerity, and on the basis of a belief in milk which I share, I gladly follow her suggestion of intervening now in order to state the position as I see it.
  If it were true that this latest increase in the price of milk had effected an appreciable reduction in the consumption of milk, then there would be—and I say it without reservation—great substance in what the right hon. Lady said, but, as I shall show a little later, there is, in fact, this month, a substantial increase in the consumption of milk, and that has happened despite the price increase which is the subject of these Orders.
  Dr. Summerskill: Compared with last February?
  Dr. Hill: I will compare the figures in detail.
  I want, briefly, to set aside the chocolate couverture point, because I think that what interests hon. Members much more is the subject of milk. Let it be

  1093
  said, on the subject of chocolate couverture, that it is, in part, as the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey), who moved this Motion, will realise, a re-definition arising out of a judgment, and, in part, a small increase in price.
  Perhaps it will suffice to say that what is involved here is 0·5 per cent. of the production of the chocolate and sugar confectionery industry, and an amplification of a scale to meet a mere handful of 25 products out of a total of more than 20,000 products covered by the Order.
  Mr. Adams: Would the hon. Gentleman explain what S.14 and 5.130 are?
  Dr. Hill: I had hoped to save the time of the House by not proceeding with that explanation, as no hon. Member had raised the question, but I shall be glad to explain. Hon. Members will see in the Order in 2 (b) the product groups S.130, S.14, 5.140, and so on. In S.130 there are some 19 different kinds of sugar confectionery of the marzipan kind. In S.14, that is the 5/4 limit group, there is one item, a form of nougat; I think that is the expression. In S.140 there is as yet nothing. In S.15—[Laughter]—If the House desires I will go into the detailed explanation of this position.
  It is that there has recently been a permitted increase in the price of sugar confectionery of 2d. It is an inevitable repercussion with an increase of 2d. in a scale which formerly had a maximum of 5s. that there should be a group, in this case S.130, with a maximum of 5/2 in order to permit the increase in that group. That involves the majority of the items here, some 19 items.
  There is at the other end S.150, a different problem, perhaps the hon. Member will remember it. It is a chewing gum problem where the size of the machines makes it impossible by adaption of the size to meet the requirements of the new scale. It is necessary, for mechanical reasons, to devise this bracket at the 5/10 level.
  For the rest, the interim brackets are there in part because there is one item which is appropriate to S.14, and in part to leave elbow room for what might subsequently happen, the reappearance in due course when materials are available of some of the more high Quality and
  1094
  more expensive items in this field which existed before the war.
  I now pass to the subject of the Orders raising the price of milk. Strange though it may seem, in view of some of the fabric outlined by the hon. Member for Sunderland, North—and some of that fabric I accept as accurate—this increase is a direct consequence of two factors. One is an increase in the cost, and the other is, as the hon. Member put it, the subsidy ceiling of £410 million. I am referring, of course, to the increased costs over the food field generally and the calculation, which as the hon. Member knows is made month by month in the Ministry, as to how the Ministry stands in relation to its £410 million subsidy position.
  Mr. Hale: How does it stand?
  Dr. Hill: If the hon. Member will allow me, at his powerful behest I will explain the position.
  Each month that calculation is made and my right hon. Friend has from time to time within the limit of that ceiling to make such adjustments in the prices that he thinks appropriate, which is a point to which I am coming in a moment, to keep within the subsidy ceiling. On 30th September, 1951, the position was that the subsidies were running at an estimated level of £430 million, or £20 million above the ceiling. That position could have been dealt with by the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend, but he failed to deal with it and it was one of the inheritances of Her Majesty's Government. The position on 31st October was roughly the same—£432 million. While the policy of a subsidy ceiling of £410 million laid down by the late Government remains, then it becomes necessary, whether we like it or not, to keep within the framework of that policy by finding the money.
  I agree that in the absence of a raised level of subsidies the only course is to increase charges.
  Mr. F. Willey: I apologise for interrupting and for having spoken so long tonight. Surely the hon. Gentleman is saying what I said: that the past Government at that time was open-minded and was keeping the matter under review?
  Dr. Hill: If the hon. Member says that we are in agreement so far then I am happy to accept it, whatever suspicions it might arouse in one's mind. The fact

  1095
  remains that the ceiling of £410 million was laid down—it obtained for the last two years—and we discovered on coming into office that subsidy expenditure was running at £20 million over that level. There being £20 million to be found to remain within the subsidy ceiling, I agree it is a matter of argument where the added cost should be imposed. There is ample room for difference of opinion. It was decided to impose such increased charges on milk as would yield £6 million of that £20 million.
  It is necessary to get the background complete to look at the subsidy position of milk. The amount of subsidy has grown. In 1942–43 the total milk subsidy was £28 million; in 1945–46 it was £44 million; in 1950–51 it was £105 million. Approximately 30 per cent. of that was in the welfare field and the remaining £75 million was not within the welfare field. Out of £410 million, in 1950–51 £105 million was on milk.
  Had the experience of last year revealed that the increased charge had lowered the consumption of milk below available supplies, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it would be a powerful argument against a further increase in price. Having made one increase in the price it would seem—it is certainly arguable—that milk would not appropriately fall for a further increase.
  Mr. Willey: I gather that the hon. Gentleman is reversing the policy of the late Government. I explained that a matter of which we were proud was that the increased production had gone to those in greatest need. The hon. Gentleman says that when he took over a sum of £20 million had to be obtained on the food subsidies. He has told us the steps that his right hon. and gallant Friend and he took to get £6 million. How was the other £14 million obtained?
  Mr. Speaker: That does not arise on this Order.
  Dr. Hill: Most hon. Members know perfectly well of the other increases we made. I am dealing with this one.
  Let me come to the question of consumption, and the point raised by the right hon. Lady. I appreciate the point she made about taking comparable months. This is a tricky piece of com-
  1096
  parison unless you do. Let us go back to the first effect of the cut. There was a small reduction in consumption in December last year of 0.8 per cent. Last month that fall had practically disappeared, and the position as we calculate for February is that consumption has risen by 2.7 per cent.
  Mr. Willey: The figures given in the Annual Digest for December are these: milk consumption for December, 1950, 111.6 million gallons; for December, 1951, 109.7 million gallons. These figures cannot possibly be reconciled with the statement that the difference is 0.8 per cent.
  Dr. Hill: Let me give the exact figures for the December months. In 1950 they were 130.86 million gallons, and in December, 1951, 129.80 million gallons, a fall in total consumption of approximately 1.06 million gallons. I have given the figures for December and January, and my answer to the right hon. Lady is not that the increase would not have been more if there had been no change in price—I am not speculating—but that consumption has risen in spite of the increase in price.
  Dr. Summerskill: Am I not right in saying that the drop in December was the first time there had been a drop in consumption for many years, and is that not a warning signal that the Parliamentary Secretary should observe?
  Dr. Hill: The fact is that the drop which one might have expected to have been appreciable was trivial and indeed, began to disappear in January. We have now an increase in February which more than outweighs the drop in December and January.
  Let there be no qualification about what I say in praise of milk. The right hon. Lady has spoken of it, and let us combine to inform the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale), that it is the strongest drink, bar none, and that its nutritional value is outstanding. But that is no reason why the level of subsidy on milk outside the welfare field should stay at £75 million a year, and it is no argument as to the appropriate amount of money which should go in subsidy for that which is not included in the welfare field.
  Mr. Hale: The Parliamentary Secretary did promise to say what the subsidy was now running at, and he did say that the cost of the 4d. worked out at £8 million—£2 million to the producers, and £6 million to the Treasury. But I find it difficult to reconcile that figure with the cost of subsidy.
  Dr. Hill: The subsidy position is that on 31st October last it was estimated that £101 million was going in both fields of milk—the welfare and the general.
  Mr. Hale: Can we have the total subsidy?
  Dr. Hill: If I am in order in giving details of all the subsidy items which come under the various food headings to make up the whole of the picture, I shall be pleased to do it, but I fear that you, Mr. Speaker, would not permit that.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman can only speak about the subsidy so far as it affects milk.
  Mr. Hale: The Parliamentary Secretary has spoken at some length on this, and told us that we were running over the notional ceiling of subsidy and that, therefore, the Ministry had to do what it proposes.
  Mr. Speaker: I would point out that this would be outside the scope of this Order because the ceiling is understood to include all the food subsidies.
  Mr. Hale: Yes, Mr. Speaker, but the Parliamentary Secretary has wasted a quarter of an hour in saying that the Order was necessary because we had gone over the notional ceiling; that the Government are committed to the ceiling, and that because of the law of the Medes and the Persians the increase had to be made.
  Dr. Hill: I cannot go over the whole of the picture. Before the latest increase in price, the subsidy figure, as I have said, was £101 million, of which the welfare schemes cost £32 million. Following the price increase on 1st December, the subsidy stood at £95 million, of which the welfare scheme cost £33 million; so that the subsidy for welfare purposes—and which I support with the right hon. Lady and every other hon. Member—has been higher, although there has been less subsidy in the general field.
  Finally, I want to pose this question. Is there anything that is wrong about this
  1098
  principle, first, of keeping within the subsidy ceiling and, second, of making price increases in order to keep within that ceiling? If there is, the hon. Member for Sunderland, North, should know, for during his tenure of office, for precisely the same reasons and considerations, there were nine such increases in the months April to July, 1951, and the cost in the financial year was no less than £112 million. There is, therefore, a somewhat hollow note to his protestations.
  No one likes this increase in the price of milk. I should be very unhappy about it if it had resulted in a reduction in the consumption of milk. It has not so resulted. The Government have followed the right policy in keeping within the £410 million ceiling and in taking the necessary steps to find the £20 million, which the late Government could have found by increasing prices of food in September last had they not been more interested in another approaching event. Her Majesty's Government have thus been left with the task of finding the £20 million which was on the debit side of the account when the late Government left office.
  12.7 a.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: One of the three Orders that we are discussing refers to the price of milk in Northern Ireland. From an intervention of mine earlier, it was reasonable to assume that I was going to raise the matter of Northern Ireland. In those circumstances, I am very surprised that the Parliamentary Secretary did not give any attention to the position of Northern Ireland. It happens that there are on this side of the House, in my party no hon. Members from Northern Ireland—
  Dr. Hill: I hope that the hon. Member will forgive me. I intended no discourtesy to him. He referred to the desirability of there being here a Minister from the Home Office to answer for Northern Ireland. One of the Joint Under-Secretaries for the Home Department is here.
  Mr. de Freitas: I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary will intervene very soon and answer my points. As Under-Secretary at the Home Office, it was my duty to come here on more than one occasion and reply, on just such a matter as this, to points peculiar to Northern Ireland.

  1099
  I was saying that there happens to be on this side of the House no hon. Member from Northern Ireland belonging to my party. Therefore, since it was my duty for so long to keep an eye on agriculture in Northern Ireland, I consider it my duty to make these points and get an explanation from the Government.
  One Order is entirely related to' the increase in the price of milk in Northern Ireland. A very elementary knowledge of agriculture in Northern Ireland leads one to realise that conditions there are completely different from those in Great Britain. Northern Ireland has always been an exporter of milk. The conditions are in no way similar to those in this country.
  I wish to know what proportion of the increased consumption to which reference has been made was in Northern Ireland. Production conditions there are very different from those in this country. Even if it is admitted that it is right in Great Britain to raise the price of milk, it will be interesting to see if it can be justified in Northern Ireland from the point of view of the consumer and also of the producer.
  I should like the Joint Under-Secretary to say how this has affected milk producers in Northern Ireland, especially those who farm under the curious type of tenancy there—the conacre tenancy. There is a different right of tenancy in Northern Ireland, as the Joint Under-Secretary will find when he goes over there. It is important that he should keep up to date with matters of agriculture in Northern Ireland and such things as the potato Orders and so on. My first intervention on an Order was on a potato Order relating to Northern Ireland. I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary, when replying, will relate his remarks to the justification for the increase in Northern Ireland and will say why it should be necessary in a country which always has such a vast surplus of milk.
  12.10 a.m.
  Mr. E. Fernyhough: In the last Parliament there sat on these benches an hon. Gentleman who, whenever a reply was given by a Government spokesman, always commented, "Completely unsatisfactory." That description applies
  1100
  to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary tonight. His reply is unsatisfactory because it betrays every pledge which the party opposite gave to the electors during the General Election. Members of that party promised specifically to bring down the cost of living, and this Order increases the price of the most essential food. It hits the staple food of the most unfortunate and the poorest.
  This increased price will bear most heavily on old age pensioners, on those who are sick, and on the increasing number of unemployed which is a result of the policy of the present Government. If one might paraphrase the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, I think it would be true to say, "Never in human history have so few done so much damage to so many in so short a time." The Parliamentary Secretary lacks the courage and determination of the Service Ministers. He ought to have told the Treasury that his Department was not prepared to impose this hardship upon the people: that he wanted the money so that the price of milk could be kept within the reach of the majority of the families of this country. The Services do that and get from the Treasury all they want, whether the Service is the Army, the Navy, or the Air Force.
  The Parliamentary Secretary, because of his professional experience, ought to know that one of the best defences that the people of this country can have is an adequate diet, and that in laying this Order he is doing something which will lessen the amount of milk which will be available to the poorest. Thereby he is undoing much of the good work he-has tried to do in advising people how to live and what to eat. I hope that he is going to reconsider this and that he made a slip when he talked about the subsidies running at £200 million above the ceiling figure. Some of us fear that it may not have been a slip and that on 11th March it may prove to be a reality.
  Air Commodore A. V. Harvey: Will the hon. Member explain what his party would have done if they had not gone to the country last autumn and had still been faced with the £20 million excess over the subsidy ceiling?
  Mr. Fernyhough: I hope they would have taken it out of the money which

  1101
  was not going to be spent on the rearmament programmes. But they did not get the chance, because they were not here. However, I hope they would have done this. Then the Minister could have said: "The expenditure on armaments was grossly over-estimated, and I do not think it will be a bad thing that £20 million of the £200 million that we are not going to spend on rearmament should be spent in order to keep the price of milk and other foods within the reach of the majority of our people."
  Air Commodore Harvey: Hon. Gentlemen opposite had an election instead.
  Mr. Fernyhough: We certainly had an election; and I think we shall be having another election very shortly, the result of which will be very different from the result of the last election.
  Captain Christopher Soames: You will have to improve on tonight's result.
  Mr. Fernyhough: If there is anything I feel sorry for tonight it is for the immediate relations in this House of the Prime Minister.
  No man in the medical profession built up a greater name for himself than the Parliamentary Secretary. I know that my own wife used to listen to the pearls of wisdom that fell from his lips every Friday morning. I myself once had some measure of faith in him.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Shame!
  Mr. Fernyhough: That was before he became a politician, and when he stuck strictly to his professional matters. I am sure that in his heart he must know that if there is one thing we can ill-afford to have increased at the present time it is the price of this food. I therefore hope he will be big enough to take our advice tonight and go back to the Treasury and fight for his Department as gamely as some of the other Ministers fight for theirs.
  12.17 a.m.
  Mr. John Wheatley: There is one aspect of the Order dealing with chocolate, sugar confectionery and cocoa products which has
  1102
  not been dealt with, and on which I think we should have some explanation. In that Order there is a new definition of the term "Chocolate couverture," and it would have been desirable had the House been informed as to the reason why the definition in the previous Order has been changed. I understand that the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department will reply. The point to which I am addressing myself might more appropriately have been dealt with by one of the Law Officers, but unfortunately I do not see any of the Law Officers of the Crown here.
  If the purpose of the change in the definition is to make more certain that a competent and proper prosecution can take place under the Order, then I want to make a number of observations. Firstly, what was the difficulty under the original Order which this new definition seeks to overcome? Secondly, is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that even with this new definition it will be possible to overcome the legal difficulty? Under the Order, if a person is guilty of contravention he is liable to criminal prosecution, and in order to get a successful criminal prosecution it is essential to have a proper and competent definition in the Order, otherwise it may be impossible for the court to enforce it.
  Dr. Hill: May I seek to help the right hon. and learned Gentleman? I did not deal with this in great detail because, quite frankly, the hon. Gentleman moving the Prayer did not seek to deal with it in much detail. There was a conviction by the Recorder of Leeds which went to appeal, and the Lord Chief Justice made certain comments about the definition of "Chocolate couverture" then appearing in the Order. I do not know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman wishes me to go into that. An effort has been made to meet the views as expressed by the Lord Chief Justice, by simplifying and shortening of the wording of the Order. Heaven forbid that I should seek to pretend to be able to pronounce on the future of this one in that possible field. I thought the right hon. and learned Gentleman would wish to know.
  Mr. Wheatley: I am obliged for the Parliamentary Secretary's explanation but, as he is probably aware, these Orders apply to Scotland as well as to England. The dictum of the Lord Chief Justice is

  1103
  not binding on the Scottish Courts. We have rather a different procedure in Scotland in our criminal prosecutions. I would like to know if the test as to whether this would stand up to scrutiny in the Scottish courts has been considered. We go in more for relevancy in Scotland than in England.
  In order to formulate a proper charge, it is essential to have sufficient notice given to the person, who is accused, of the standards to which he has to subscribe, otherwise sufficient, fair notice has not been given and the courts, in such circumstances, have held complaints to be irrelevant. If one looks at the definition in this Order, one sees it might be difficult for a person charged under it to know exactly to what standards he has to subscribe. It is not sufficient in the courts merely to echo the words of the statute or of the Order, if that criterion, to which I have referred, is not satisfied.
  Accordingly, is the Government satisfied that both in the Scottish and English courts, the mere echoing of the words of the Order would be held to give sufficient notice to the accused person of the standards to which he is expected to subscribe? I am not making this as a debating point because I am anxious, if we are passing what is after all penal legislation, that we should do it in a way the courts can enforce. Otherwise, there is no purpose in passing that legislation.
  Dr. Hill: I go timidly into this complicated question. We have been advised on both the Scottish and English legal aspects of it.
  Mr. Wheatley: In that case, we must await the test of time, if and when a case is raised in court. May I ask one question, and ascertain from the hon. Gentleman whether those who advise him have given him an answer to this? If we read the definition of the Order, one will see that the "Chocolate couverture" means
  "any chocolate product that would be regarded in the chocolate industry as properly sold under the trade descriptions of chocolate couverture, bakers' covering compounds…"
  If a person were charged with a contravention of the Order in the respect that he had sold the commodities which did not conform to that definition, and he, by way of defence, laid evidence from two witnesses, or maybe one witness is
  1104
  sufficient in England, who are in the trade, that the commodities, which the accused person had sold, was a commodity which had been properly sold under the trade description schedule, would that be a complete defence? There is no criterion save that it should be a commodity that was properly sold under that trade description. If witnesses say it was properly sold under that description because they themselves sold a similar commodity under that description, albeit that the prosecution may have laid abundant evidence to prove it was not, is that to be a full and satisfactory defence to obviate the possibility of getting a conviction?
  Accordingly, I think the hon. Gentleman might look at the matter very carefully from that point of view. I am not saying it necessarily means taking the Order away at this stage. If we are going to pass legislation with penal consequences, we should be sure that legislation will be effective in our courts. If, on further reconsideration, the hon. Gentleman is of the opinion that definition might provide loopholes, which would prevent the Order being effective, it would be in the interests not only of the Government but of criminal courts that a better, more comprehensive, and more water-tight definition was provided.
  12.25 a.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): I should like to give an answer to the points which have been raised by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas), who asked about Northern Ireland. The position in Northern Ireland is that the Northern Ireland producers receive the full benefit of the agricultural guarantee, and their milk, therefore, costs the same as in Great Britain. In fact, the subsidy per capita and also per gallon is higher in Northern Ireland than in Great Britain, because of the difference in the economies of the two countries.
  The hon. Member also asked for certain figures, and I shall try to give them as best I can. He asked for the change in production in Northern Ireland during this month, as compared with the corresponding month of last year. That figure is an increase of 8.9 per cent. The change in consumption, in which I think he was particularly interested, is an increase of 6 per cent., but I must warn

  1105
  him and the House that these figures are not exactly what they look, because this is Leap Year and we are comparing February with February when it has not been possible in the time to make the necessary adjustments in the answer to the hon. Member.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. P. G. T. Buchan-Hepburn)rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Mr. Richard Adams: On a point of order. May I submit, Mr. Speaker, that we have now been discussing these three very important Orders for about two hours, and we on this side of the House did agree to a general discussion on the three Orders to expedite the business of the House. May I say that we would not have given that undertaking if we had thought for a moment that the discussion on three important Orders was going to be curtailed to two hours? I should like to submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that, if you are accepting the Closure Motion on the first Order, we should be permitted to continue the discussion on the remaining two?
  Mr. Speaker: In reply to that point of order, I made it perfectly clear that we should have a joint discussion on the three Orders, and that I should put each Order separately thereafter, without separate divisions. The Question is—
  Mr. Adams: Further to that point of order. I think it is within the recollection of the House that it has never been known for three important Orders to be taken together by common agreement and for the discussion on those three Orders to last just two hours. I submit to you that it is interfering with the rights of hon. Members on this side to restrict the discussion in this way, and I must repeat that I ask you for permission to speak on the second Order when the Question is put.
  Mr. Speaker: I am afraid I cannot allow that.
  Mr. George Thomas: Further to that point of order. May I put to you, Mr. Speaker, the fact that hon. Members, in seeking to discuss these three Orders, have borne in mind that the main part of the discussion so far has been centred on the question of milk. There has been very little or no discussion on the chocolate Order, in which an increase in price of 10d. per lb. is laid down. May I put it to you that back benchers on the Opposition side are being denied their rights if the Question is put now?
  Mr. Speaker: I am afraid those are not points of Order. They are all arguments to influence me on whether I should accept the Closure or not. The point really is that, of these Orders, two are very similar in substance, and it was agreed that we should take them all together and that I should put the Questions separately.
  Question put accordingly, and negatived.
  Question,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Milk (Control and Maximum Prices) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment No. 2) Order, 1951 (S.I., 1951, No. 2066), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, 1951, be annulled.—[Mr. Willey]—put, and negatived.
  Question,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Chocolate, Sugar Confectionery and Cocoa Products (Amendment No. 2) Order, 1951 (S.I., 1951, No. 2067), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, 1951, be annulled.—[Mr. Willey]— put, and negatived.

  TROOPS, KOREA (AMENITIES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Major Conant.]
  12.30 a.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Hyde: Earlier tonight, or rather last night, before we were involved in a discussion on the delicacies of chocolate and milk, we heard a good deal about Korea. I wish to raise one particular aspect of the operations there, namely, the amenities available to our troops in that theatre, using the term "amenities" in its widest sense.
  I am drawing attention to this subject, because I was able to visit the United Nations front in Korea during the Christmas Recess. Only two other hon. Members of this House have visited Korea since hostilities began, the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Aitken). In some ways it is a pity that more hon. Members have not been able to make that journey.
  So far as my own visit was concerned, I would express my thanks both to the American and our own military authorities for the facilities they put at my disposal, particularly the Commander-in-Chief of the Commonwealth Forces, General Bridgford, who lent me his plane to visit the front, and the Divisional Commander, General Cassels, for letting me see everything I wanted to see and answering all the questions I wanted to ask; and for allowing me to have the experience which is rather unusual for an ex-intelligence officer of going into action in a tank against the enemy.
  My experience was that the morale of the troops was extremely high. They were in good heart, they were well fed and, after some regrettable delays, I think well clothed. But they have some grouses. They are discontented about pay and allowances. The nature of the United Nations Command throws into relief the disparity in the rates of pay. Our troops are almost the worst paid troops with the possible exception of the Turks and the South Koreans. Even the Greeks and the French are paid more than our men.
  All ranks, and particularly officers, resent having to pay Income Tax on their pay. The Commonwealth Forces, the Australians and the New Zealanders do
  1108
  not pay tax, and the Canadians pay tax only on the first 30 dollars of their pay. There is also some discontent about there being no local overseas allowance. Troops who have been peace-time soldiering in Hong Kong had this allowance, but when they went to Korea they found it was withdrawn. The excuse has been that there is nothing on which to spend their allowance in Korea. There are no clubs, cafes, golf clubs or cinemas. But the troops from Hong Kong who have gone to Korea have, in many cases, had to leave their wives in Hong Kong and have to maintain them while they are in Korea.
  It is a good thing that gratuities have become payable and that these men are receiving them, but it is important they should know when they became payable. I understand they become payable when the men are posted away, but only the other day I had a letter from a National Service man's mother to the effect that her son, demobilized six months ago, had not received the gratuity he was entitled to. I ask the Minister to assure the House that he will do everything he can to ensure the gratuities are promptly paid.
  There was also some complaint at the N.A.A.F.I. prices. Articles like shaving brushes and tooth-brushes, and soap and cleaning equipment bear higher prices in N.A.A.F.I. stores in Korea than in other theatres, notably Germany. I would ask the Minister to keep a strict watch on these prices and to bring them into line with those charged in other theatres.
  I wore the clothing issued when I was in the front line and thought it extremely good and adequate, but I did see some men who wore last year's clothing, with battledress and woollen jerseys. I ask the Minister to assure the House that all ranks have now been issued with the new type winter clothing. There was also a complaint about equipment, particularly stoves, or space heaters as they are called, and I would ask the Minister to see whether all these needs have been met. I know of at least one firm in this country with a supply of heaters that could meet any deficiencies there may be.
  Then there is the lack of entertainment. Korea is a very bleak place and there are few recreational facilities. There is a very great need for live entertainment, and there was great disappointment when

  1109
  it ceased last November. The excuse given in official quarters was that it was too cold for entertainers to go out there, yet that did not deter the Americans from sending a plane load of stars to entertain their forces at Christmas time.
  Mr. Carroll Levis, a well known entertainer, offered to take a party of six out, and there is no doubt it would have been appreciated by the troops, but the offer was turned down. I understand some concert parties are due to go out in March, but entertainment is wanted now, particularly entertainment provided by someone like Mr. Carroll Levis or even Miss Gracie Fields. There is also need for mobile film units. It may be that more of these are now available, but five weeks ago the men told me that there was only one such unit in the whole Commonwealth Division. I would appreciate it if the Minister would say whether these cinema projectors are now reaching the command in greater numbers.
  Another point is mail. I understand the men have still to pay postage in some cases on their letters home. Cannot this charge be remitted? Another point is that on gifts of more than 10s. their relations are liable to Customs and Purchase Tax. This applies even to gifts purchased in the N.A.A.F.I. For example, if Japanese silk goods, such as a kimono costing about £2 10s., are sent, it does seem unfair that the recipient should have to pay Customs Duty and Purchase Tax on it.
  There are good supplies of newspapers, but I did meet with the complaint that these were largely confined to national dailies and weeklies and magazines. There is a feeling that there should be some local newspapers, because the men like to have the local news and gossip from their home towns. At present these papers have to be sent by relatives at a cost perhaps of 2s. per paper by air mail, and I wonder whether this charge could not be remitted or supplies of local papers sent out.
  In conclusion, I should like to quote from a letter I received the other day from an ex-trooper in the 8th Hussars which summarises how many of the men feel on this question of amenities. He says:
  "In August, 1950, I was recalled to the Colours, and I served that last terrible winter
  1110
  in Korea. Our clothing was of the poorest to meet the climate—we had only battle dress and a so-called windproof. I would like to state that, although I served from 1939 to 1946 with Tank Regiments in Africa and Italy, I have never undergone the hardships imposed upon us by the Korean climate, by the complete lack of entertainment of any description, and by the absence of reasonable leave. I would like to thank you for visiting the troops, as one of our main grouses was that no one in authority ever visited us. Had they done so, they would have seen how the Government had neglected their troops in one of the hardest wars of all times."
  Whatever the faults may have been in the past the Secretary of State now has a great opportunity of putting them right. I would ask him most seriously and earnestly to take that opportunity, and in doing so to earn the lasting gratitude of our troops in that theatre who are fighting with other United Nations forces in the cause of freedom.
  12.43 a.m.
  Mr. W. T. Aitken: I too had the privilege of visiting Korea, not quite so recently as the hon. Member, but I did much the same trip. I visited the troops beyond the Imjun River, and saw something of the conditions and difficulties under which they were fighting. Everything I heard, from Army headquarters, corps headquarters, divisional headquarters, right down to the front line, was that our troops probably have the lowest standard of welfare and pay of any of the European troops in Korea. Even the Turks, who were the lowest paid soldiers on this side of the iron curtain—and among the bravest—are now on the American standard of pay, which is four times that of the British soldier.
  On the other hand, it was a proud and splendid thing to hear some of the comments, which applied from the Army commander down to the humblest G.I., about the record of our troops in Korea. Everywhere you heard expressed this high regard in which our troops are held for their fighting skill, courage and discipline.
  I want to take up the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Lieut.-Colonel Hyde) about newspapers. During the last war the importance was recognised of getting newspapers out to the troops oversea. The W.V.S. organised a very efficient method of collecting national and local newspapers. I think the emphasis in this case should be placed on the local newspaper, and if

  1111
  these efficient ladies were asked to go into high gear again I think they would do it. I am sure that if transport facilities could be arranged—and they should be—it would be possible to arrange matters so that every soldier in Korea would regularly get his local paper. In that grim and desolate country —and anybody like ourselves who is privileged to go there—will realise that news from home means a very great deal to our soldiers in Korea.
  12.45 a.m.
  Mr. T. Driberg: In the minute or two left to me I would echo what was said by the hon. and gallant Member who raised this subject, and I would congratulate him for having done so. I would echo what he says about local overseas allowance.
  As some hon. Members will know, a number of us raised this question repeatedly throughout the last Parliament without getting any satisfaction at all; but, looking at it in retrospect, I do not think that it was the fault of the War Office, or any intentional meanness on their part. They sent repeated signals to the Commander on the spot asking if a case could be made out for overseas allowance, and perhaps he did not realise that this repetition was a hint. But he replied that he could not make the case, and I think that as a small consolation, or substitute for that, the late Government decided in August or September on the special gratuity scheme; and that, although not very much, is better than nothing.
  Now there is a new Government, and there has been a change of Commander out there, and I can only express the hope that the Under-Secretary will look sympathetically at this question.
  12.46 a.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. J. R. H. Hutchison): Almost all the points in this discussion this evening have been the subject of recent Parliamentary Question and answer or the subject of Adjournment debates. But, I am glad that the matter has been raised afresh in order that our troops who are fighting so gallantly in Korea may know that their problems and troubles are constantly in the minds of hon. Members here. The fact that the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Lieut.-Colonel Hyde) was able to
  1112
  visit them in their distant fields will, I am sure, be greatly appreciated.
  Let me say, first, that the morale and health of the troops out there is good; and when one gets these two factors there is probably not much that is radically wrong. Of the many questions touched upon by the several hon. Members who have spoken, I think that the most acute is that of pay, and if I set forth the factors which play upon this complicated situation, I would ask hon. Members what, in the circumstances, they would have done. The first factor, to the exclusion of all others, and which is the most pressing of political matters today, is the need for national economy.
  The second is that the British Army has always accepted that we should pay a soldier the same wherever he is asked to perform a task, and whatever that task may be. That is a principle which should not be lightly abandoned because the moment one tries to make an increase of pay for, say, fighting, or suffering some special hardship, one embarks upon a sea of endless trouble.
  How can one assess the degree of discomfort in, say, Korea, as compared with Malaya, or the Canal Zone? Again, how can one assess the degree of discomfort in different parts of the same theatre of operations? The complications are deep and widespread. Let us also remember that, however unfavourably—I agree that from many aspects they are unfavourable —our rates of pay compare with those of other countries, they at least compare not unfavourably with civilian rates at home.
  We must also realise that we, almost alone among the nations who have sent contingents to Korea, have also got important garrisons elsewhere. The United States, our Dominions, Turkey and Greece have virtually only one fighting zone to consider, whereas we have the Canal Zone and Malaya and the other commitments of a far-flung Empire.
  Let us remember, too, so far as the United States and Canada are concerned, that the pay of their troops has to bear some relationship to the cost of living in their countries. They are high cost of living countries, and their troops very often have to send home from their pay something to help to maintain their families. Our troops are not the lowest paid, although we come fairly low down

  1113
  the scale. Turkish, Indian and other troops are lower. But the Turks draw ahead from us, as so many Continental nations do, in the pay of their officers.
  Income Tax has been mentioned. Only some of the countries exempt pay from tax. Income Tax in one form or another is levied, as with us, by the United States, Canada, Greece and Turkey.
  I admit that there is a gap. My first reaction, like that of my hon. and gallant Friend, was one of resentment, but, bearing in mind all these facets to the problem, I still return to the question that I should like hon. Members to ask themselves: What would they have done in these circumstances? Hon. Members may retort by asking what we have done.
  The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) mentioned the Korean gratuity. In an attempt to narrow the gap—I do not pretend that it comes anywhere near closing it—the Government instituted a Korean gratuity and extra terminal leave, and since the terminal leave is paid leave, it is another form of reward. The gratuity for a private is on the basis of £10 for service in the Korean theatre up to three months plus £1 per month for each month thereafter. A private may earn something in the region of £25 and a 2nd Lieutenant something like £45. Nor must we lose sight of the provision for marriage allowance, which many of the other nations fail to provide.
  If we were to double the Korean gratuity, it would cost the Services, on the basis of the numbers involved in that theatre in the past year, an extra £432,000 a year. But I will undertake to see that those who are entitled to gratuities are not held up waiting for them to be paid. These problems of comparative pay always occur when troops of different nations are fighting alongside one another in the same theatre. They arose in the First and Second World Wars, and I am afraid that they will never be eliminated until there is a United Nations Army paid out of a common budget.
  Now a word about the local overseas allowance. What has been said is broadly true. It is an allowance instituted to compensate our troops for serving in areas where the cost of living is higher than it is at home. Whether the question was put to the G.O.C.-in-C. out
  1114
  there in the form suggested by the hon. Member or not, it is clearly open to him at any time to make out a case for it in Korea, but he has not made out such a case, and it is hard to see how it can be made out at the present time.
  In Hong Kong the position is otherwise, and the local overseas allowance is paid there. We have been asked why, when a husband is posted away from Hong Kong to Korea, the allowance is withdrawn from his family in Hong Kong. The answer is buried in the problem of trying to provide for a united family in the Services abroad. When the husband goes to Korea the family for the moment can no longer be considered to be united. Consequently that family is offered a homeward passage free, and incidentally if that passage is accepted it eases the acute housing situation in Hong Kong. If that passage is refused, the local overseas allowance is withdrawn altogether. They well know the purpose of the local overseas allowance and what will happen if the passage is refused.
  Now a word on N.A.A.F.I. prices. The prices of some articles are higher, and some lower, than of comparable articles in B.A.O.R., and at home, but overall they compare not unfavourably in spite of the high cost of transporting the goods to that theatre. In this connection N.A.A.F.I. are making arrangements for a better supply of films for cameras, and for the developing of films.
  On clothing, it is generally admitted that the clothing furnished to all troops is as good as the best. Although the situation came in for a good deal of unfair criticism, the earlier forecasts which my right hon. Friend gave to the House have been exceeded. As to space heaters, although there was some initial delay owing to production difficulties in the United States of America, our full requirement of 3,900 of these heaters has now been met. Mention has been made of a concern in this country which might be able to supply them, and we would be glad to have the name of that firm.
  I come now to the question of entertainment. It was at the express request of the Command out there that no entertainment parties were sent in the period between November and February, owing, no doubt, to the weather. However, the hon. and gallant Member, with that well-known sense of humour possessed by all

  1115
  his countrymen, may perhaps have helped in part to remove that deficiency. From March onwards increased provision is being made, and eight parties from the United Kingdom and Australia are to visit the theatre at monthly intervals. Mobile cinema shows have been arranged, and each major unit now has two 16 millimetre projectors for films supplied by the Army Cinema Corps and the United States Army.
  Lastly a word about mail and newspapers. Regarding homeward mail, lightweight letters by air are carried free for the Forces without limit. Ordinary airmail letters cost 2½d. for one ounce. Civilians pay 2s. 6d. for the same weight. I will take up with N.A.A.F.I. the question of whether N.A.A.F.I. goods, such as silk articles, can be exempted from Purchase Tax and Customs Duty.
  The question of supplying local and provincial newspapers was raised in August, and when we asked Korea Command for its views the reply was that there was no great demand for weekly provincial papers but a constant demand
  1116
  for more national Sunday papers. These with others, are sent out on the basis of one paper for every five men. They are flown out and issued free.
  I hope that all this, unrolled rather rapidly, will serve to show that the needs and wants of the troops in Korea are very present in our thoughts. They on their part have shown that our youth has not lost either its vigour or courage. We want to do all we can in return for the fine job that they are doing, but I ask them, and hon. Members, to remember the financial limitations by which we are so hard pressed just now.
  Mr. Driberg: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask whether the extra leave facilities in Japan, which mean that troops can spend more money there, will provide an excuse, as it were, for a local overseas allowance? Will the hon. Gentleman look into that?
  Mr. Hutchison: All I can say in reply is that we will consider it.
  Adjourned accordingly at One o'Clock a.m.

  PENNINE WAY (INQUIRY)
  PENNINE WAY (INQUIRY)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Water Undertakings (Steel)
  Water Undertakings (Steel)
  Flooding, Poole
  Flooding, Poole
HOUSING
  Prefabricated Houses (Wiring)
  Prefabricated Houses (Wiring)
  Southampton
  Southampton
  Tied Cottages
  Tied Cottages
  Empty Flats, North London
  Empty Flats, North London
  Subsidy
  Subsidy
  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES
  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES
CIVIL SERVICE
  Pay
  Pay
  Overtime and Agency Work (Cost)
  Overtime and Agency Work (Cost)
  Temporary Ex-Service Men
  Temporary Ex-Service Men
  Temporary Staff (Dismissals)
  Temporary Staff (Dismissals)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  European Payments
  European Payments
  Crown Film Unit (Closing)
  Crown Film Unit (Closing)
  Dental Services
  Dental Services
  Profits (Tax Investigations)
  Profits (Tax Investigations)
  Pensions Review
  Pensions Review
  Married Persons (Tax Allowance)
  Married Persons (Tax Allowance)
  Japanese Sterling
  Japanese Sterling
  U.K.-Eire Discussions
  U.K.-Eire Discussions
  National Savings
  National Savings
  Post-war Credits
  Post-war Credits
  Utility Scheme (Report)
  Utility Scheme (Report)
  Town and Country Planning Act (Claims)
  Town and Country Planning Act (Claims)
  New Coins
  New Coins
  Fur Exports (Illegal Transactions)
  Fur Exports (Illegal Transactions)
  "HOME AFFAIRS SURVEY"
  "HOME AFFAIRS SURVEY"
  WELSH AND SCOTTISH FILM LIBRARIES
  WELSH AND SCOTTISH FILM LIBRARIES
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Goods of Chinese Origin (Imports)
  Goods of Chinese Origin (Imports)
  Consumers' Research Council
  Consumers' Research Council
  U.K.-Eire Discussions
  U.K.-Eire Discussions
  Motor Cycles (Hire Purchase)
  Motor Cycles (Hire Purchase)
  Export Markets (Foreign Competition)
  Export Markets (Foreign Competition)
  Industrial Research, Scotland
  Industrial Research, Scotland
  Carpet Imports
  Carpet Imports
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  South Bank Exhibition (Cost)
  South Bank Exhibition (Cost)
  Government Offices (Heating)
  Government Offices (Heating)
  Building Licences
  Building Licences
  Coal Board (Brickworks)
  Coal Board (Brickworks)
  Dome of Discovery
  Dome of Discovery
  Building Materials (Production)
  Building Materials (Production)
  Requisitioned Premises
  Requisitioned Premises
  Mining Subsidence, N. Staffordshire
  Mining Subsidence, N. Staffordshire
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER
  Clock Tower (Repairs)
  Clock Tower (Repairs)
  Maintenance Work (Cost)
  Maintenance Work (Cost)
  Westminster Hall (Roof Repairs)
  Westminster Hall (Roof Repairs)
  Night Baking (Report)
  Night Baking (Report)
EMPLOYMENT
  Building Workers (Unemployment)
  Building Workers (Unemployment)
  Newcastle-upon-Tyne
  Newcastle-upon-Tyne
  Bristol
  Bristol
  West Ham
  West Ham
  Firemen's Union (Claims)
  Firemen's Union (Claims)
  Sunderland
  Sunderland
  Ordnance Factory Workers
  Ordnance Factory Workers
  Cotton Workers, Bolton
  Cotton Workers, Bolton
  Albert Road Exchange, Southampton
  Albert Road Exchange, Southampton
  British Transport Police
  British Transport Police
SCOTLAND
  Limitation Act, 1939
  Limitation Act, 1939
  Civil Service Redundancies (Disabled Persons)
  Civil Service Redundancies (Disabled Persons)
  University Grants
  University Grants
  Sheep Losses, Shetland (Aid)
  Sheep Losses, Shetland (Aid)
  Hospital Accounts
  Hospital Accounts
  Town Development Bill
  Town Development Bill
  Regional Hospital Boards (Expenditure)
  Regional Hospital Boards (Expenditure)
  Unemployment (Raw Material Cuts)
  Unemployment (Raw Material Cuts)
HOUSING, SCOTLAND
  Subsidy
  Subsidy
  Myton Houses, New Cumnock
  Myton Houses, New Cumnock
MINISTRY OF PENSIONS
  Disseminated Sclerosis
  Disseminated Sclerosis
  1914–18 War Widows
  1914–18 War Widows
  Disability Pensions
  Disability Pensions
  War Pensions
  War Pensions
  AUSTRALIA (U.K. EMIGRANTS)
  AUSTRALIA (U.K. EMIGRANTS)
  COMMONWEALTH ECONOMIC AFFAIRS (DISCUSSIONS)
  COMMONWEALTH ECONOMIC AFFAIRS (DISCUSSIONS)
  ANGLO-ARGENTINE MEAT NEGOTIATIONS
  ANGLO-ARGENTINE MEAT NEGOTIATIONS
  APSLEY HOUSE (PUBLIC ADMISSION)
  APSLEY HOUSE (PUBLIC ADMISSION)
  INFANT SCHOOLS (ADMISSIONS)
  INFANT SCHOOLS (ADMISSIONS)
  B.B.C. EUROPEAN SERVICE (ECONOMIES)
  B.B.C. EUROPEAN SERVICE (ECONOMIES)
  TELEPHONE SERVICE
  TELEPHONE SERVICE
  ALUMINIUM (AGREEMENT WITH U.S.)
  ALUMINIUM (AGREEMENT WITH U.S.)
  NATIONAL ASSISTANCE BOARD (CAR)
  NATIONAL ASSISTANCE BOARD (CAR)
  VETERINARY SURGEONS (REPORT)
  VETERINARY SURGEONS (REPORT)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Electric Shock Treatment
  Electric Shock Treatment
  Poliomyelitis
  Poliomyelitis
  HOSPITALS (PATIENTS' FOOD)
  HOSPITALS (PATIENTS' FOOD)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The Duke of Bedford—Affirmed.

NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AND DERBY SHIRE TRACTION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
PRESTON CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
TOTTENHAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
WINCHESTER CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

SCOTTISH AFFAIRS
2.38 p.m.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when the names of the Royal Commissioners to inquire into Scottish Affairs will be announced; and whether the terms of reference will include the question of creating a Scottish Parliament.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, as soon as the Report of Lord Catto's Committee on Scottish finance
200
and trade statistics has been received and considered, the Government will consider the terms of reference and composition of a Royal Commission.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, may I ask when the Catto Committee's Report is expected?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I think it should be about April. That is the nearest date I can give the noble Lord.

RELEASE OF STERLING TO EGYPT
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why £5,000,000 was recently released to the Egyptian Government in circumstances which so little warrant such a gesture.]
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government agreed to the transfer of £5,000,000 from blocked Egyptian accounts to free Egyptian accounts since they were under an obligation to release this sum and were reluctant to take action which would have widened the scope of the present dispute.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his answer. I gather that this payment was of an exceptional character, and I hope that no further payments are contemplated.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, this was a payment of an exceptional character; there was a very special obligation to make it.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, arising out of that answer, may I ask the noble Viscount whether British tankers will now be allowed to go through the Suez Canal without interference?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, that question hardly arises out of the question of why we paid £5,000,000 to the Egyptian Government. If the noble and gallant Earl has a Question, I should be grateful if he would put it down on the Order Paper.

MESSING DIPLOMATS
2.40 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any further information has been received on the position of Messrs. Maclean and Burgess, and whether measures have been devised or are under contemplation to safeguard the Foreign Service from such contaminations.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have received no further positive evidence about the position of Messrs. Maclean and Burgess since these two men disembarked at St. Malo on May 26 last. Telegrams ostensibly sent by them from Paris and Rome respectively were received by Mr. Maclean's mother and wife and by Mr. Burgess' mother on June 7. Inquiries failed, however, to confirm that they had themselves despatched these messages.
Investigations are still continuing, but by the use of the word "contaminations" the noble Lord appears to be prejudging the issue. If the purpose of the second part of his Question is to inquire as to the application of the procedure for barring Communists and Fascists from positions where they may have access to information vital to the security of the State, I can assure him that that procedure applies equally to the Foreign Service as to other Departments. Further, as the noble Lord is no doubt aware, it has recently been announce I that special inquiries will be made about persons holding key posts in the Government employ. This procedure also will apply to the holders of key posts in the Foreign Service.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess for his reply. I would ask him whether he is aware—probably he is—that the system of screening in the past has not been reliable, and whether he will consider measures to improve or tighten the system in future.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, as I indicated in the last part of my answer to the original Question, a
202
new system is about to be introduced, and I hope that that system will prove as efficient as both we and the noble Lord desire.

THE HOUSING SITUATION
2.45 p.m.
THE LORD SILKIN THE LORD SILKIN rose to call attention to the housing of the people; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This is the fourth time that the Motion has appeared on the Paper, and it is hard to believe, even now, that it is going to be taken. The first postponement was to enable the noble Lord, the Lord President of the Council, to acquire a well-deserved insignia of learning from a northern university, and I was very pleased indeed to facilitate that honour. We then had the unhappy death of our clear friend Lord Addison, and the lamented death of his late Majesty King George VI. I hope the House will not think me impertinent if I say a word or two about the well-known interest of his late Majesty in the subject of housing. I was for a time exceedingly well placed to judge of that interest. It was my duty and my very great privilege on a number of occasions to escort his late Majesty and the Queen Mother over a number of housing estates, and I know the tremendous concern that his late Majesty felt over the subject of the housing of the people. I know, too, the great pleasure it gave him to get amongst the people, to visit their homes informally and to see the progress that was; being made towards improving housing conditions. The present Queen is, of course, by hereditary and other reasons, equally interested in this vital subject.
Housing is the most vital and urgent of our social services. That is a sentiment which I know will meet with the approval of every one of your Lordships. There is a great housing shortage, due not to one factor but to a variety of considerations. The population and the number of separate families in this country are increasing; houses are becoming obsolete: with full employment more families want homes of their own and are no longer content to go on sharing a house, especially one which was never intended to be occupied by more than one family; and there

203
is a greater need for rural housing for agricultural workers. More houses are required for mobility of labour. At the present time a great many of our economic difficulties are due to the fact that it is not possible to provide homes for labour where they are needed. This shortage has resulted in acute hardship, suffering and anxiety, as well as economic loss to the community as a whole. It was therefore very good politics to play on this need, to make reckless charges against the late Government, and to make flamboyant promises to the electorate, both before and during the Election. Now the time has come for the Government to redeem those promises, and we shall watch the position with interest and anxiety.
Already Her Majesty's Government are in a more chastened mood. Mr. Macmillan stated in another place on November 13 (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons; Vol. 493, col. 850) by which time he had barely been able to acquaint himself with the problem, that the Government would not reach their target in 1952. He said they had
"more ambitious plans for 1953 and succeeding years."
He went on:
"How far we shall succeed depends upon many things not in our control."
That was a very reasonable statement, and I have no complaint to make about it. If the right honourable gentleman or his friends had made a statement of that kind before the Election it would have been perfectly proper. In view of the statements which have been made about the late Government's neglect to deal with the problem, I think it right to begin by putting on record the housing achievements of the late Government and the legacy that has been left to the present Government. In Great Britain, between 1945 and the date when the late Government ceased to hold office, nearly 1,500,000 houses were provided, giving accommodation for about 5,000,000 people. In other words, one person in ten now residing in this country has been housed by the late Labour Government. Site development had begun, when the present Government took office, for the provision by local authorities of a further 1,200,000 houses.
The late Government had taken a good many steps to increase efficiency and output. They had set up the Building
204
Industry Working Party, and a Building Industry Team visited the United States under the auspices of the Anglo-American Council on Productivity. Both these Committees reported in 1950, and both the Reports were discussed during that year between the Ministry of Works and the National Consultative Council of the Building and Civil Engineering Industries. By the end of 1950, action had been taken on most of the recommendations, both by the Government and by the organisations concerned. That action resulted in simplification of procedure, mechanisation and a fresh agreement on incentives to building workers. Moreover—and this will interest the noble Lord, the Lord President of the Council—a good deal of research had taken place into new methods of construction, and two exhibitions were held shortly before the Election: one at Leeds, which was visited by 50,000 people, and another at Warwick, where mechanised plant and equipment and the use of electricity on the site were demonstrated. Further work had taken place in evolving a more economical type of house, yet retaining roughly the same area of living space. This was proposed to the housing authorities in April, 1951, by the late Minister of Local Government and Planning, and the present Minister has adopted these plans in his own circular of November 27, 1951, to local authorities.
All these things together indicate that a great deal had been done towards the solution of the housing problem, and that great achievements had taken place at the time when the present Government took office. I do not ask noble Lords to accept this testimonial from me alone. In April, 1950, the New York Herald-Tribune said that the British have perhaps the most successful housing record of all countries in Europe. Another journal in this country, the Economist, said in their issue of January 7, 1950, that, judged by the paramount test of numbers of dwellings completed, Mr. Bevan's housing policy had succeeded—and, I would add, judged by the quality of the house as well. It is obvious from what I have said that when the present Government took office the housing cupboard, at any rate, was by no means bare. The Government have inherited a going and very flourishing concern. Almost every house which will be com-

205
pleted in 1952 will have been begun under Labour administration, and almost every house which will be completed in 1953 and 1954 will be on a site where preparatory work had started under Labour administration. That is very different from the circumstances in which the Labour Government had to begin their operations in 1945. Then they had to start absolutely from scratch.
LORD LLEWELLIN: If I may interrupt the noble Lord, is that quite right? There were a large number of sites already laid.
LORD SILKIN: There were very few sites. When the Labour Government took office the war was still in progress and, indeed, they had to make application to the Services for the release of key men—architects, surveyors and so on. They had to build up their organisation. There was also a shortage of raw materials. Indeed, they had to start at less than scratch, because we were still operating under war conditions.
The Government have certainly set about their task with energy. The present Minister has sent out to the local authorities no fewer than nine circulars and two memoranda. He has also produced a Town Development Bill. I make no complaint about that. I think it is right that the local authorities should know the Minister's mind, as indicated by the circulars which he is sending out. But I hope that he will bear in mind that there is a limit to the digestive capacity of local authorities, and it would be a pity to give them mental indigestion. At any rate, if the output of houses is going to be as good as the output of circulars, we shall be doing very well indeed.
The Government are proposing to attack the housing problem under four main heads—a reduction in the total size of houses; an increase in the ratio of houses to be erected under licence by private builders; the sale of houses owned by local authorities, and the use of alternative materials and improved methods of construction.. I wish to say a word or two about each of those. First, I realise that the reduction in the size of houses is in accordance with the advice given by the Ministers predecessor in the circular of April, 1951, and, therefore, in a sense I suppose that I am estopped from making any criticism of it. In so far as
206
it produces the same result and provides rooms of the same size, I suppose that in present circumstances it could be justified. But I am bound to say that I personally regret what amounts to a lowering of standards. I was very proud of the Bevan house. One has to remember that these houses have to stand for eighty, ninety or one hundred years. We hope—I certainly believe—that standards are continuing to rise. These were houses of which one could be proud, which looked ahead and which provided that improvement in conditions which we all anticipate and hope for in housing. But I make no serious criticism of what the Minister has attempted to do. I realise that it is an attempt to bring down the cost of housing, to reduce the amount of labour involved and to permit of the existing material being spread over a larger number of houses. So long as this is not a permanent condition but related to our present difficulties, I feel that it is legitimate.
I would ask the noble Lord whether he can assure me that this lower standard of housing—and it is a lower standard—is such that, if and when times get better, these same houses can be improved. For instance, the second w.c. is omitted: will it he possible at some future date to add a second w.c., and to add other facilities which exist in the present type of house but which are going to be omitted? I think that that would indeed be a wise precaution. I have in mind the case of a number of local authority fiats which are being built up to six and seven storeys without lifts, and the well is such that it will not be possible at any time to install a lift. With a little foresight, that well could have been made of sufficient size to permit the installation of a lift at some time when it became practicable, when people began to demand lifts and to refuse to climb six or seven flights of stairs. It is upon matters of that kind that. I hope the noble Lord will be able to give some assurance. In the meantime, I must accept, with regret, what I hope is only a temporary reduction in standard.
What I have said applies to local authority houses, but I should like some explanation about the houses that are to be built by private enterprise. I see that a maximum is established in terms of cost, but there is no minimum except the structural requirements laid down by

207
the National House-builders' Registration Council. These, however, are structural requirements and not amenity requirements. The requirements of the Registration Council do not cover such things as the size of rooms, the lavatories and the ordinary necessities of a house. While I recognise that no builder trying to sell his houses would put up dwellings that would be quite unsaleable, nevertheless I should like some assurance that somebody is going to examine these standards to see that houses erected are not below the standards we have learnt to expect in our new housing, merely in order to be offered for sale at an attractive price. I say quite frankly that I recognise that we have to give the private builder rather more freedom than perhaps we should the local authorities. Nevertheless, I feel that there ought to be some minimum standards below which private builders should not be allowed to go.
In this connection, I should also like to make the point that houses alone are not sufficient. They must be homes; and by "homes" I mean they must be in an environment which people to-day are entitled to expect. They must be healthy and convenient places in which to live. Therefore, in addition to homes, especially on new estates, there will be a need for shops, open spaces, schools and all the rest of it. I should like the noble Lord to explain what will be the effect of the restrictions that have been announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the provision of these other things. If one takes literally the Chancellor's statement of January 29, there will be no shops, no offices, no new schools and so on. I should like to be assured that in the case of new housing estates, certainly, there will not merely be houses but the amenities that naturally go with them.
I come now to the second question, the increase in the ratio given to private builders. How is the Minister going to satisfy himself that his Party's promise, made in the Election manifesto—which, I may say, they will not be allowed to forget—will be carried out; that is, the promise that the number of houses built for letting will not be reduced? I put a Question down on this matter some months ago, and it was answered fully by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd. From his
208
reply, I understand that the position is this: that if 200,000 houses are built and if, on an average, only one licence in four is given to private builders, instead of the permitted maximum of one in two, then by process of arithmetic (I have not troubled to work out the actual figures: I take it the noble Lord's arithmetic is right) the number of houses for letting will not be less than it was.
LORD LLOYD: I should like to interrupt for a moment on that point. I did say on that occasion that this was not a case of exact mathematics. What I said was based on previous experience, and that was, in the opinion of those who have had considerable experience, the probability.
LORD SILKIN: I quite follow that, but, of course, the promise was an exact one, that there would be not fewer houses for letting than there are to-day. I understand that the licensing rests entirely with the housing authorities and that it is not intended to interfere with their decisions. But the fulfilment of the Election pledge is based on two hypotheses: one, that there will be at least 200,000 houses built, and the other that the estimate or guess (whichever you like to call it) that on an average one licence in four will go to private builders will in fact materialise. What if either goes wrong? The noble Lord has explained that this matter is not entirely in his hands. The licensing is in the hands of the local authorities. What is the Minister doing in case it goes wrong? What is he doing to ensure that it does not go wrong? I imagine that he is keeping his fingers crossed and hoping for the best, but is he doing anything else; and, if it does not work out right, what is he going to do then? I should be glad if the noble Lord could answer that point.
My main criticism of the increase in the ratio of houses for sale is that by this means there will be what is popularly known as "queue jumping." The ability to buy a house, or perhaps just to put down a deposit, will enable a person on the housing list to get a higher priority than others. After all, the provision of houses in existing conditions should be based on need. I am not one of those who allege that the only need is in one section of the community. The need for housing exists universally, and

209
I know many cases where there is hardship among people who might be described as middle-class or even higher. It is just as great, just as serious, as it is among people of the lower incomes. None the less, I feel that it should not be the power of the purse that decides whether one individual or another gets a house. I have no doctrinal objection to home ownership; I want to make that abundantly clear. After all, the Labour Government accepted the principle of licensing, and it is merely a question of the numbers.
Nevertheless, with this increased ratio there is the great danger that people who are high up in the housing list, and who have the greatest need, will lose their claim. These fists have been prepared by local authorities, usually with very great care and based on points: an assessment is made of so many points for ex-Service men so many points for the size of family, health conditions, conditions in which they are living and so on. All these factors come into the points system, and, as I say, the persons who are high up on the list are the persons who have the greatest need. If this new factor of giving more private licences is introduced there will be the danger that people whose need is less will be able, under licence from the local authority with all the facilities that that involves, to buy a house to which they are not entitled. If so, it means that they will be given an advantage. I do not know what justification there is for this change. It cannot be a financial one, surely. However, perhaps the noble Lord who is to reply will enlarge on that.
I notice that the building industry regard this increase in the ratio of houses to be licensed for private building as a step in the right direction. I am not surprised that they are not completely enthusiastic. The building industry had been led to expect that they were going to be set free, free to build as many houses as they liked and under any conditions that they pleased. I have been fortifying myself by reading a certain amount of pre-Election literature, and if I were a builder I should be very disappointed that I had not been set free. What is the position to-day of a builder? He still has to obtain a licence to build; he still has to find a specific purchaser or a tenant before he obtains his licence; he has to get planning consent, by-law
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approval; he has to satisfy the requirements of the National House-builders Registration Council, and during the course of construction his work will be subject to periodic inspection. He has to comply with the regulations over the use of timber and steel, and at the end of his work there is a limitation on the price at which he may sell the house or the rent he may charge. That is hardly setting the builder free. But I imagine that among friends all is forgiven, and temporarily forgotten, and I expect that we shall not hear very much more about "setting the builders free" until the next Election.
I should like the noble Lord to explain how the sale of local authority houses is going to help the, housing problem, how it will add one single house to our numbers. I can see how it is likely to reduce the number of available houses. After all, every local authority house constitutes part of the pool. In the days before the war when I was chairman of a housing committee, we used to estimate that, on an average, a house became vacant every live years. To-day the local authority with which I was concerned have some 200,000 houses, and if similar conditions to those I have mentioned applied to-day, this authority would have 40,000 houses a year to let, merely from the pool. But I understand that houses are now occupied on an average for a longer period than five years. Putting it at ten years, that still gives them a pool of 20,000 houses a year for letting, which is substantially mom than the number that they can build. These houses are a very important factor in dealing with the housing problem—whether the total be 20,000 houses or even only 15,000. At all events, it is a larger number than can be built. If they were going to sell all their houses (which I sincerely hope they will not be permitted to do) none of these would be available for letting; in so far as a local authority is permitted to sell houses, surely that must reduce the pool of houses available for letting.
I should therefore like the noble Lord to explain what is the purpose of permitting the sale of local authority houses. Is it financial? Is it to enable the local authorities to make money? It can hardly be that, because I imagine that in a great many cases the local authority will be asked to lend the money for the

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purchase and therefore they will simply be taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another. Can the noble Lord who is to reply tell us whether any applications have actually been made by local authorities for permission to sell? Has there been any real demand from the local authorities for these powers? I understand that the power to sell has been on the Statute Book for some years; there is nothing new in that. Why have the Government suddenly brought it out into the open? Who is "putting on the heat" for this? It is not the local authorities; they could have done it at any time. Most of them do not want to sell their houses. Why then do the Government raise this proposal? Have there been any applications to sell; how many; has the Minister made any decision; and can the noble Lord tell us whether any protests have reached the Government? What are to be the Government's criteria as to whether they permit the sale of houses or not? What is to be the test?
On the last question, the use of alternative materials and improved methods of construction, I have explained to your Lordship that a great many of the recommendations of the two Committee set up have actually been put into operation. Is there anything more that the Government have in mind? I think we are almost at only the beginning of prefabrication. Have they in mind carrying out any further research or experiment in prefabrication and mechanisation, and are they going to give facilities to industries, particularly to builders, who want to mechanise their plant? I should like to suggest to the noble Lord one possibility of relieving the shortage.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD WOOLTON): Would the noble Lord mind developing the point? The noble Lord asked what facilities were going to be given; I am not quite sure what he had in mind.
LORD SILKIN: Well, what I have in mind is this. I referred to the two exhibitions that were held just before the Election, and I think a similar one was held in 1945, where wonderful plant and equipment was shown which would reduce the amount of labour and simplify output in housing. But this equipment
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has to be produced and made available. It is no good showing these things if builders cannot get them; and they can get them only if the Government encourage their production. My question is: Are the Government going to encourage the production of this equipment and plant of special type, and expedite its availability to builders?
I want to make one suggestion—namely, the use of timber houses. I would say at once that these are not suitable in congested areas, but up and down the country there is a considerable number of them. Of course, on the Continent, in the United States and in other places there are very large numbers. Shortly after the First World War a number of local authorities, the London County Council in particular, experimented with various types of houses, and they built a number of timber houses. These have now been standing for some thirty years and it has been possible to judge whether or not they are satisfactory. I understand that they are satisfactory in every possible way. The maintenance charges are no higher than for the normal house. They have certain advantages, one being that they are not too hot in summer and not too cold in winter. The tenants like them very much, and I should imagine that such houses would be fairly easy to build. Indeed, in the last few years we in this country have developed an industry for the building of timber houses. The capacity exists, but we have been exporting them. I think that that is all to the good. But would it not be possible, in suitable areas and in suitable places, and with proper safeguards against fire risk, to encourage the production of a larger number of timber houses? I can assure the noble Lord that they would be well received by tenants. They would be cheaper than the normal house. They could be quickly mass produced, and there is no need to go to Sweden or Finland in order to import them; we can make them ourselves.
Before I sit down I should like to ask a few general questions. Will licences be given readily for the conversion of large houses into flats, maisonettes or small separate houses? At present these licences are being given. I should like to know whether this policy

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will be continued or perhaps even extended. A large house, which very often is a white elephant, can be turned to advantage and, if properly converted, can make a great contribution to the solution of the housing problem. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to assure the House that these conversions will be allowed to continue. What is the Minister doing to ensure that houses are being built in the right places, not only in conformity with town planning principles but also where they are most needed—I mean from the point of view of existing economic and strategic needs? There are the special requirements of agricultural workers, mine workers, of labour required for brickworks and, of course, of labour for rearmament. It is no use talking of transferring a half a million workers from peace-time industry to rearmament unless you can provide accommodation for them. Special priority will be necessary in many cases, particularly for rural housing. I need not emphasise the vital need for increased food production, but we shall not get is unless we can provide more accommodation for the rural worker. This will need a high degree of priority. If, however, local authorities are being encouraged to build as fast as they can, without limit, as I understand is the case, how will the Minister ensure that he gets this priority for houses where they are most needed? Will not the limiting factor always be labour and materials? Then, I should like to ask what the Government are doing to increase the supply of bricks, cement, timber and fittings, which are bound to be in short supply. Unless there is an even flow of these things, I can assure the noble Lord that housing will be badly held up. We must ensure an adequate supply of all these materials, and that will need a great deal of preparatory work.
Next I should like to ask, what is the Government policy on development of new towns? I was glad to see that the Minister had spoken in rather enthusiastic terms about existing developments in the new towns. There are now fourteen new towns, in which, naturally, I have a paternal interest because they were all started during my term of office. But can the noble Lord say whether or not there are any more in contemplation? Every new town is started for a specific purpose—for dispersal, in order to pro-
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vide for a particular type of industrial worker, or for some special reason or other. There is still a need for more new towns in certain parts of the country. Does the Minister contemplate the setting up of more new towns where a good case can be made out? My last question is: What is to be the policy about slum clearance and areas of comprehensive redevelopment necessitated by bad or obsolete lay-out? Unhappily, as the noble Lord knows, we still have large numbers of slums and very large areas in the big cities which are in great need of redevelopment. Upon some of these work has actually been started. Will the local authorities be encouraged to go on with their slum clearance and comprehensive redevelopment schemes?
That concludes the questions that I want to put to the noble Lord. I realise that I have given him material for a very long speech. But I did give him some notice of what I was going to ask him, and no doubt he will have had a very busy time finding the answers. I have perforce had to leave unsaid a good deal that I think ought to be said in a debate of this kind, but I see that there is a very long list of speakers, and I am sure that any defects on my part will be made good. The Government will be faced with ever-increasing difficulties. The competition of rearmament is going to be very great and acute. But the Government have pledged themselves to give the highest priority to horsing, after rearmament. If they honour that pledge and proceed with the erection of homes with energy, determination and enthusiasm, in an imaginative way and not by depressing standards or spoiling the amenities of our towns and the countryside, they will earn a debt of gratitude from the nation—and for one, will not hesitate to acknowledge it. But if they fail, it will be the cruellest deception that has ever been perpetrated on those who are in need of homes and who have relied on their promises. And the nation will never forget. I beg to move for Papers.
3.30 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I do not intend to follow the noble Lord who has moved this Motion by making a survey of the complete field of housing, but I want to put in a particular plea for one section of the community about which I have spoken to your Lordships on pre-

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vious occasions. I trust that you will bear with me if I once again put forward my plea on their behalf. The people I refer to are those who are growing old; people who are really in need of care and attention because of age and infirmity. I want to be very careful not to base my remarks on sentiment, but I think I have one or two points I can put before your Lordships which, you may find, afford convincing support to my argument that by making provision of proper housing for people in this category we shall be meeting a very great need and contributing largely to the solution of the housing problem.
The first point I should like to make is this. The experiment was tried in one London borough—I think it was Hornsey—about four years ago of providing a small group of special houses for persons of the sort I have mentioned. The local council built a series of about fifteen small houses for old people in the borough. Those houses were constructed on substantial lines and were extremely up-to-date and comfortable. By building them the council were able to arrange for the transfer from other homes of old people whose families had grown up and gone out into the world. These old people, in the circumstances, found smaller dwellings much more convenient for their purposes, and their transference meant that fifteen other and larger houses were made available for young couples and couples with families. That experiment was reported to the Minister—I think in comparatively recent times, possibly in the life of the present Government. I should like to know whether the idea has been followed up; whether there is any proposal for developments arising out of that kind of experiment.
It is necessary, I believe, to be careful not to put up houses for old people in too large colonies. It is not advisable to have great sections of the older members of the community living together in one area. Nevertheless, it is a fact that in the Scandinavian countries large colonies have been built. I do not know if any of your Lordships has recently been to Copenhagen, but if you have you may have noticed that there is there a very large section devoted to flats and apartments for old people. There must be several thousands of these folks living together. The dwellings certainly look
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pleasant, and they are obviously popular, for there is a long waiting list of would-be occupants. Nevertheless, I think that the general feeling in this country would be opposed to that system. Certainly, that is my feeling. I consider that what is needed is to get these old people, so to speak, split up, so that they can give help and comfort to their children and to young members of the community generally. It is, for example, a great advantage to a young married couple with, perhaps, two or three children, to have the wife's mother living close at hand so that she can take care of the children from time to time when, it may be, their parents want to go out to the pictures or to take some other form of recreation. If parents have not someone like that to come in and give them a hand, it means that the wife is going to be tied to the children and the husband is bound to go out by himself, and, doing so, he may get into all sorts of difficulties and troubles which may lead to a breaking up of the marriage. Therefore I think that when it can be arranged to have grandmothers living near their children and grandchildren, this will tend to prevent the breaking up of a good many marriages.
Another reason for making special provision of housing for these old people is that almost every day one reads in the Press reports of the rising cost of the National Health Service and of the great difficulty that is experienced in finding accommodation in hospitals for old people when they become sick. Now it is difficult to prove what I am going to say, but I think I can give your Lordships some evidence in support of it. If people are properly housed there will be a big reduction in the incidence of the chronic rather degenerating and crippling, diseases which sometimes occur in old age. One has seen this borne out by what has happened in two places where there are large colonies for old people—me near Mill Hill and the other near Weybridge. During the past fifty years from 5,000 to 6,000 people have been in occupation of cottages at these places. They are nice cottages but it is true that in one instance a number of the old people are a trifle isolated. I understand that over the past fifty years there have been at these places practically no cases of these chronic, crippling illnesses which attack old people, causing them to need hospital treatment and often to occupy

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beds for a considerable period, thereby making hospitals reluctant to admit them. I admit that that is rather a negative sort of proof of my contention, but I think more investigation on the same lines would show that what I have said is true and that we can cut down the incidence of these diseases in this way. We have succeeded in greatly reducing the incidence of infectious diseases during the past century by means of better and cleaner housing conditions, and I feel sure that we could cut down the incidence of these chronic complaints of old people by taking measures on similar lines.
One of the real tragedies of the present time, in my view, is the separation of housing from health. It was, I believe, wrong to separate local government housing from the other work of the Ministry of Health. Housing, properly directed, pan be of immense value from the point of view of both curative and preventive methods of treating illness. Furthermore, housing involves big medical and health problems. It is very difficult to prove that by having good housing you cut down long illnesses, but what I can prove quite clearly is that if you have bad housing you will greatly encourage such illnesses. A part of London in which I work and which I know well is St. Pancras, and in some districts of that borough housing conditions are distinctly bad. This, I think, is largely because so many of the houses were built in Victorian times to house families. They are often four-storey structures, and although when they were built they were very suitable for their purpose, conditions have so changed that now each floor and, maybe, each room has often become a home for a separate person or a separate family.
Because old people, as a general rule, have not much money, they tend to be pushed by economic pressure to the top floor. Rooms on the top floor are usually cheaper than those on the lower floors. Poor old people living in the top storeys are often without w.c. facilities, as these places are in a great many cases situated on the ground floor. There are even instances where to obtain water it is necessary to descend to ground level, as there are no taps in the upper parts of some of these dwellings. It is very easy to see how mental decay and self-neglect sets in when people, through infirmity, are unable to get down to the ground floors
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of these places. This leads to a very great amount of really serious illness which, again, requires patients to be kept for a long time in hospital. And when they come out after being treated or cured, the difficulty of re-housing them is enormous. I know that good and friendly local authorities do their best for these old people, but the accommodation just is not there, and they are confronted with the choice of keeping people in hospital after they are perfectly well or of sending them back to their lop floors, knowing full well that in six months time they will be back in hospital again. I support the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his plea for some encouragement for the programmes of slum clearance, as they are of as much importance to the people I am talking about as to their younger contemporaries. To come back to whit I said a moment ago, the important thing is to realise what a great amount of sickness and expense the country is caused by the present housing shortage. Everything that can be done should be done to build as many houses as possible and make them available to young as well as old people. I am not saying this in any critical way, because I am sure the Government have every intention of carrying out this work.
3.42 p.m.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF YORK: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for bringing this matter before the House. He has a specialised knowledge of the subject and speaks with all the authority of great experience. I found myself in complete agreement with a number of his remarks at the beginning, most certainly so when he described this as a most vital and urgent problem. I do not think there will be any difference of opinion there. We all feel that, after the problem of defence, this is the most vital of all social problems confronting the country to-day. For, notwithstanding all that has been done, there are three undeniable facts. The first is that overcrowding in our towns is almost as serious as it ever has been. There are very long waiting lists, and in many towns these waiting lists are longer than they were the year before last. The second undeniable fact is that a large number of houses, running into tens of thousands, which were long ago

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condemned as unfit for human habitation, are still occupied. Slums cannot be swept away until some accommodation is found for the people who are now living in them. They would prefer to live under a roof in a slum, rather than have no roof to live under. The third fact, which I feel is not always recognised, is that new slums are being created by the deterioration of existing property, partly through neglect and neglect of repairs.
I also found myself in agreement with the noble Lord when he spoke in high terms of the way in which the late Government carried through a very great housing programme. I have always supported that programme, and I feel that the main lines of the policy adopted by the late Government were right. That statement, however, does not necessarily mean that I am critical of new experiments and new methods, which apparently the present Government intend to attempt. A policy which may be right for one period may need considerable modification later. Therefore, I am very willing to see the private speculator and builder having greater opportunities, within limits, than he had in the past. He claims that he will be able to build more quickly than the public authorities. Let him have a try—I am not so alarmed about the modifications in the standard as the noble Lord. His criticisms were obviously gentle because indications of the Government's modifications were suggested under the previous Government. I wonder whether this step really means anything like a lowering of the standard of building. My housing experts, to whom I often have to turn for advice, have urged me to distinguish between the standard of building and the standard of accommodation. They are strongly opposed to any kind of reduction in the standard of building. If we reduce the standard of the strength of walls and of the materials used, we are preparing slums for the future. On the other hand, I believe that there can be some change in the standard of accommodation, and that a number of minor changes can be made—dropping things which would be desirable but which, under the present emergency, cannot be afforded. I think it is right that experiments should be made in that direction to see whether houses cannot be built at
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a lower cost. If they can be built at a lower cost, more houses will be put up.
I hope very much that this matter may not be dealt with from a Party point of view. On the main principles there is agreement between the Parties. The noble Lord referred to a number of manifestoes and speeches made during the Election. Whether to my good fortune or to my misfortune, I was out of the country at the time and did not have the pleasure of reading these various manifestoes and I can express no opinion on them; but when I have discussed this matter with members of different Parties I find that substantially they agree. There are differences in detail, but they are at one in a determination to see that a large number of houses are built as quickly as possible. The target of 300,000 houses seems to me to be a somewhat ambitious one. I think there will be practical difficulties in realising it. But there is nothing like having a striking target. If we had a target of 300,000, we might build 250,000, which would be more than a target of 200,000.
I do not propose to say anything about the actual building of houses. I want to urge two points, which I think ought to be kept in mind. First, I hope the Government will see that existing accommodation is used to the widest extent and is not in any kind of way dissipated. For instance, I have been struck by the way in which a large number of dwelling-houses in different parts of the country are now taken over as offices of various local authorities, instead of being converted into flats, whether for old people or others. I know one town where only eight years ago there was a row of quite attractive houses, each occupied by a separate family; and in one or two cases there might have been two families in the one house. Now all these houses are offices connected with one of the local authorities. The demand of local authorities for new offices and new accommodation is becoming a dangerous mania. If a vicarage is now vacated, as it often is between the departure of a vicar and the arrival of a new one, there are local authorities who at once put in an order for compulsory purchase. I know a case of this kind in the North Riding. If they were successful, the work of the Church in that place would be hopelessly crippled, perhaps for years;

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there would be a search for accommodation elsewhere, while a vicarage which had been used for 200 or 300 years for the purposes connected with the Church would be turned, not into a number of houses out into a number of rather comfortable offices for a growing bureaucracy. If one ascertained the total number of houses which were once used for habitation but which are now used as offices, the sum total throughout the country would be very large indeed.
But I want to emphasise what the noble Lord who has just spoken dwelt upon—namely, that a good deal of space in houses is now not fully used. People are over housed in some cases, although in many more cases they are under housed. I am thinking, as the noble Lord was, of those houses which once were occupied by a family; where the children have grown up and gone out into the world, and the parents remain alone in a large house. I am told that the cycle of a family house is forty years, but that during that time it is used to the full extent for only fifteen years. This means that there are a number of houses, especially, I think, in the country, now occupied by two old people, although at one time they were occupied by a large family. The old people will not move away for two quite good reasons. The first is that if they move away from a house which is controlled they will have to pay higher rent elsewhere. The other reason is even stronger, and it is one in which I sympathise with them more warmly—namely, that they are afraid they will be moved right away from the village which has been their home for a number of years and find themselves among strangers. Therefore, it is of great importance that a much larger number of houses to accommodate two people should Le built for these old people. In that way the larger houses will be set free for those who have growing families. I hope that that matter will be kept carefully in Mind. The List document I saw on this matter showed that recently a considerable number of houses have been built for aged couples. That is a policy which, as the old increase in number, should be steadily pursued.
The other point I want to make is about the deterioration of good property into slums, which is taking place day by day. It is no doubt due to a number of causes, but one of them is the Rent Restrictions
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Acts—I am now touching on a very controversial matter, and I doubt whether any Government, even if they had a large majority, would cote to deal with this particular problem in a comprehensive way. I recognise fully that these Rent Restrictions Acts are necessary, and I would not for a moment propose their complete abolition. But they are acting unfairly in certain ways, and there are a large number of cases where the rent is nothing like sufficient to meet the necessary repairs. Of course the rent of houses is completely out of any kind of relation with the income of those who occupy the houses. Some of your Lordships may have seen a book called Poverty and the Welfare State recently written by Mr. Seebohm Rowntree. It relates again to investigations at York. He says that in York, of the working-class families he investigated, he found nine poorer families whose rent was 25s. a week, but 1,044 families at the highest rate of working-class income where the rent was only 10s. a week. There has been no readjustment between rent and wages for a long time.
The point I want to make, however, is not so much the general but the specific point, that in a large number of cases the rent received is not sufficient to meet the necessary repairs. Mr. Rowntree refers a case of a man he says he knows well. The house which that man owns is let at 4s. a week, and after necessary repairs the net receipts for the whole year at the end of 1950 were 1s. 8d. When that is the case, repairs, which may be substantial, cannot be carried out, and one finds a large number of houses gradually deteriorating into slums. That is one of the matters in connection with the Rent Restrictions Acts which ought to receive most careful consideration. Not long ago some interesting figures were published by the Royal Institute of Chartered Accountants which showed that the maintenance cost index for 1951 was 275, as against 100 for 1939. If that is the case, then the cost of repairs has gone up out of all proportion to the rents received.
I should like to ask one question of the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government. I have not given notice of the question, and shall not be at all surprised if he tells me that he must have further notice of it. As the noble Lord already has a large number of questions to answer, I feel that I ought to apologise

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for asking this. However, I should be grateful if he could give us any information about the progress made in connection with the new towns. Fifteen new towns are to be built, and they are to have a population of 440,000 people. I understand that at the end of last year only 3,000 houses in those towns had been completed, and that there were only 10,000 people in actual occupation. I do not know whether or not that is so, but I should be grateful if the noble Lord could give us any information on that point. Unless these new towns become strong and flourishing within a comparatively short time, the congestion and the spread of old towns will continue at an appalling rate. I believe that this housing question is one which we must solve, for unless the people of the country have good houses we shall not have a people who are contented and happy.
3.58 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I will endeavour to answer the most reverend Primate as I unfold the case I have to put to your Lordships to-day. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has been most tolerant, not only in his speech, but in the length of time he has agreed to wait before addressing your Lordships on his Motion. I personally am grateful to him for the consideration he showed in postponing the debate, as he did on one occasion, for my convenience. I am also grateful to him in that before he let loose that rather long string of questions to me he was considerate enough to give me notice—thereby disturbing my week-end's peace in trying to find the answers to them. The noble Lord speaks not only with the knowledge of a person who has occupied high office in the Department concerned with the problems with which we are dealing to-day, but also as a man who hat had a large practical experience of these problems both in local administration and in industry. I am sure that we are all grateful to him for having given us this opportunity of expressing our views to-day on a problem which, if one looks back over the Parliamentary history of the last fifty years, has occupied a dominant place in the attention of every Government in peace time. I personally have no doubt that it is the most important of all the social problems which confront this country to-day. I have no doubt that, from the national point of view, it ranks only
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second—I am afraid it is second—in importance to the financial problems which engaged your Lordships' attention a week ago. It is true that different political Parties have different views as to how this problem could be solved; but there is no difference in any Party as to its urgency and importance.
As was his duty, the noble Lord told us of the accomplishments of his own Party when they are in office. Only to a minor degree do I dissent from any of his assumptions, but I am sure he will agree that it is profitless for us to pursue disagreements on this subject. The business of the present Government is to build on what they found when they took office, and I was delighted to hear the broad-minded statement which the noble Lord made just before he sat down, when he said that if we could do better, then he, at any rate—and I am sure all noble Lords opposite—would be glad for the sake of the country.
I have been interested in this problem for a very long time. It goes back to the days of my youth when I was doing social work. With the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, I had a great deal to do with this problem when we were both engaged in the Coalition Government on the problems of reconstruction and endeavouring to get some sort of blue-print for what might happen when the war was over. The noble and learned Earl will remember that at that time we were considerably concerned to find out what was the possible productivity and capacity of the building trade. In each of the five years from 1934 to 1938, the figures of house construction in Great Britain varied from a minimum of 338,000 in 1934, to 367,000 in 1938. Even in 1939, when the country was considerably engaged in the process of rearmament, the figure was 306,000. The interesting thing about these figures is that, during these six years, the number of houses built in England and Wales by local authorities varied from a "low" of 43,000 in 1935 to a "high" of 88,000 in 1938, whereas the number of houses built by private enterprise in this period ranged from 252,000 to 275,000. I should say that in Scotland the position was reversed; roughly speaking, twice as many houses were built before the war by local authorities as by private enterprise. I give your Lordships these figures because they form some justification for

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an estimate that some of us made and which will remain with us until, in the pride of accomplishment, people forget it.
Before the war, Governments were concerned with a very different problem of housing from the one with which we are concerned. For the most part—and I am glad that it should have been raised again to-day—they were concerned with the problems of slum clearance and overcrowding. Only 33,500 unfit houses have been pulled down during the course of the last six years since the war. I was asked whether we shall continue slum clearance. I am sure that the most reverend Primate has given us the answer to this question. We must build houses before we destroy houses in which people are living, however much we regret that anybody should be living in such conditions. Of course, the deterioration of houses has been going on all these years, and in addition we lost 218,000 houses during the war.
I do not find it very easy to arrive at any sort of calculation as to the number of houses we shall require in order to provide a home for every family. However, I do know this—and I think it is important that we should say it in your Lordships' House to-day—that the problem is so great in its magnitude and is so important in its consequences that it calls for a united effort, not only from all political Parties, which I believe we shall have on this issue, but from all the people who are either directly or indirectly engaged in the occupation of house building. The building trades of all ranks have it within their power to hasten the day when every family in this country can have a home of its own. Every man in the trade is engaged on work of supreme national importance. To help in this work is to help the nation to health and to happiness. The demand is so great that no firm and no operative in the building industry need have any fear about there not being plenty to occupy his capacity and his time for years to come. No one need be looking round the corner wondering whether there is unemployment there. He might, indeed, look round the corner, when he will find thousands of people waiting for the homes which only the building trade can provide for them.
Governments may give encouragement or they may retard. What Governments
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cannot do is build houses: the glory of accomplishedment must belong to the building trade. The responsibility of the Government is a joint one. It is partly a national responsibility and partly a local one, but in this matter it is clear and defined. I can assure the House that the whole Cabinet are determined, within the limits of our capacity and second only to the call for defence, to do everything to encourage local authorities and those engaged in the industry in their efforts to meet the housing needs of the country. Obviously, the first task is to complete the 225,000 houses which are now under construction and the 86,000 houses for which licences have been given and which are awaiting a start. To get the best results—and here, of course, is where perhaps we have departed a little from the ways of the previous Government, and I hope we are right—it is quite clear to us that we must try to use all the forces that are at our disposal. The greatest need is for houses to let and we prescribe that local authorities must devote at least one-half of their programme to the building of council houses for letting. Your Lordships have so much personal experience of this problem that you know that there are widely varying conditions in different areas in the country. It is only after this 50 per cent. has been provided, that local authorities may use their discretion according to local circumstances as to the extent to which they will issue private licences. The other thing that we have said, and we say it with emphasis, is that virtually the only limit to a local authority's programme is the local capacity for building houses.
I realise that there are some people who doubt the policy of making it easier for people who want to buy their own homes to do so. I wonder whether there is not a little danger of being doctrinaire about this. Personally, I rather like living in my own house, and I think a great many other people feel just as I do about it. I remember that early in my youth I spent some time living in one of the cotton towns in East Lancashire. It was a matter of very great pride to those cotton operatives that they owned their own houses; and beautifully they kept them, in spite of the fact that the climate was not good. They washed them outside and they washed them inside. It was a

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matter of housewifely pride, and the husbands, too, were proud of them. They saved their money in order to own their own houses. I think that is a good thing. It will be a good thing if we encourage a lot of people in this country, if they have the means to do it, to own their own houses. I believe that, without causing any hardship to other people—this is the issue between us—it can be encouraged.
But there is another sort of house that we should like to see more widely licensed—and I am sure that those of your Lordships who live in the country will realise that this is a problem that is very wide in its application—that is, the house that is built by the small builder. There must be many small builders who could build two, three or half a dozen houses as a "hospital job" (as I believe they call it in the trade, although I do not know why), worked in with other tasks of essential repair and maintenance of existing properties. If they can do it, why not let them do it, and by that means increase the number of houses available in the rural districts?
I am glad to see that some local authorities are issuing what they call block licences for building a suitable number of houses, on condition that the occupants of the completed houses are approved by the local authority. I believe that that building on a large scale is the way in which we shall not only get more houses more quickly but also bring down the cost of houses. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, was concerned as to whether, in the process of this housing drive, we were likely to reduce the standards of building in this country. He was meticulously careful in asking the question about the standards of building. Your Lordships will remember that the noble Lord was a little hesitant in his speech about building, but not at all hesitant in his speech about amenities. I think that is the distinction. The answer about building is "No." We do not want to reduce the standard of building. Local authorities may reduce the standard of amenities, but I share with the noble Lord opposite the hope that, in the process of so doing, they will have the foresight to provide for the addition of amenities in better times. We have come to the conclusion that economy in reducing the size of corridors and unoccupied space is quite justifiable in these days.
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It will reduce the cost of the houses; it will reduce the demand on materials, and I think it will be a good thing from both points of view.
The noble Lord reminded your Lordships that the standards must be up to those laid down by the National House-builders Registration Council, and he wondered whether there was some danger of people building houses that were so small that (if I may use the vernacular) it would not be possible to "swing a cat round" in them. I do not think there is much danger of that, because at the present time the demand for the reasonable house is much too big for any private builder to be tempted to fall into that error. But I should be glad to see an increasingly large number of dwellings built for elderly people who perhaps have not the means to look after larger houses and certainly do not want the physical labour of doing so. I do not know whether I should say this but, speaking to the noble Lord as one grandfather to another, I am sure that he was right when he said it was important that grandparents should not be too far removed from their grandchildren, in order that they might on occasion act as "sitters-in" while the younger people went out and enjoyed themselves.
I revert to Lord Silkin's question as to whether the fact that building licences are to be given for the building of houses for owner-occupiers will involve a reduction in the number of houses that will be available for letting—I think that was the most serious question which the noble Lord put to me. My noble friend Lord Lloyd gave the Minister's answer to that question a short time ago. I have consulted my right honourable friend about this matter. He is confident that at least as many houses will be built for letting as before and that, whilst much freedom is given to local authorities, the proportion of council houses built to those undertaken for owner-occupiers will probably be in the region of one in four, in England and Wales, and one in five in Scotland. The noble Lord asked me this quite impossible question: what would the Minister do if the number of houses built for letting was not maintained. I dare not go so far back into history as to say: "Wait and see," but I will say that we are, in Parliamentary language, thoroughly seized of the problem, and that it will be our business to

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deal with it in the very early stages if we see that there is any danger of it happening.
Then there was the question of what is going to happen if people "jump the queue" and, because they have more money, are able to get a house earlier than those who have less money. Do not let us get confused about this issue. The noble Lord said that housing authorities had points schemes, schemes that indicated the relative needs for a house. A man can have need of a house, in spite of the fact that he has enough money to buy one; the two points are not mutually exclusive. I have here a cutting from a newspaper which says that a Government official earning £3,000 a year, will £500 expenses—I think that is rather good—is living in a Glasgow council house. I see no reason why the gentleman, had he been so inclined and if he had the need (as obviously he had, otherwise I am sure the Glasgow Corporation would not have let him have the house), should not have bought it and relieved the Glasgow Corporation and the country of the financial obligations that were involved.
Then I was asked, had there been any protests made? That was a question to which the noble Lord knew the answer. There nave been protests made about councils selling houses. There was a certain amount of demonstration in Glasgow a short time ago, but I am given to understand—and here I speak not of what I know but of what I am told—that the replies given by, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland went some way, at any rate, to satisfy local feeling in the matter, and the Glasgow Corporation proposals were supported.
LORD GREENHILL: I hope to be given the opportunity of being able to contradict that later.
LORD WOOLTON: You observe I chose my language with great care; said that I was so told. The noble Lord asked me why a local authority should sell a house. He asked me whether there was any real demand for this power to sell. Why is the noble Lord bothering about this, because if there is no real demand then the situation will not arise? Some people have said that they thought there was a great demand. I personally
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express no opinion about it, but I will say (and I am sure it will give the noble Lord much satisfaction to know it) that there does not appear to have been any very great demand made to the Minister for his permission in this matter. But if there is no demand nobody will be damaged.
LORD SILKIN: I was afraid that the Government might be putting ideas into local authorities' heads.
LORD WOOLTON: But the ideas were already there and, as the noble Lord pointed out, this was not a new idea. The noble Lord asked me about questions of town planning—I am sorry to occupy so much of your Lordships' time on questions put to me. The noble Lord probably knows more about town and country planning than anybody else in this House, and I gather on great authority that the noble Lord understood the Act that he was administering. The noble and learned Earl and I spent a very large amount of time trying to understand it before it came into existence.
EARL JOWITT: And succeeded, in part.
LORD WOOLTON: He asked me whether in fact the present occupant of the office dealing with town and country planning would see that the principles of town planning were adhered to and whether they would satisfy the strategic and economic needs of the people. I can assure him, that my right honourable friend is very much alive to the problems and concerned with them. I do not think the noble Lord need worry unduly about our use of the phrase "setting the builders free." We never said that we would set them completely free, and we had every intention of continuing to license as long as it was necessary to license. We certainly always had the intention of seeing that builders obeyed the by-laws. I am sure he thinks we are right in saying that we propose to continue to exercise a maximum size to which builders can build. I am sure the building trade will welcome his solicitations on their behalf.
May I revert to the question of the strategic and economic needs to which he referred? So far as we are concerned, they come under three headings. In the first place, we are extremely anxious to

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encourage the building of houses in rural areas and to encourage in particular the building of houses near people's work in rural areas. It is one of the most important things we have to do. Indeed, we must do everything we can to encourage farmers to produce more food. I believe we shall help them a great deal if we can get houses for the farm workers to live in. The other issue is that of miners, and there the Minister has made a special allocation in order that houses shall be built near to their work, because the need of coal is, indeed, probably the greatest need of the country. We are also endeavouring to make arrangements for increasing the provision of houses for people engaged on rearmament work and in the export trade.
Now I come to the question of new towns. Some time ago my noble friend Lord Gage asked me whether, living as I do within about fifteen miles of it, I would co and see the new town at Crawley in Sussex. So I went, and I was most impressed by the work that had been done under the previous Government in the building of that town. There are eight new towns under way around London. Here are the figures: 2,763 houses had been completed by January 31, and 4,351 were under construction. I do not think those figures would give a great deal of comfort to the most reverend Primate, but I chanced to get them out. I am told that progress is being made with the towns of Aycliffe and Peterlee. So far as the extension of this idea of new towns is concerned, the Government, generally speaking, would, before they embark on a very extensive enterprise of this nature, like to wait and see a little more clearly what measure of success will come from it. I was asked whether there was any proposals for further new towns, and the reply is that there are. The Manchester Corporation is proposing a new town at Congleton, and the Lancashire Development Plan is proposing a new town, I believe, at Skelmerdale.
My Lords, I have occupied your attention for a long time, much longer than I personally like doing. I hope I have answered most of the questions. In regard to substitutes we shall have to use all our ingenuity if we are to complete our quota. The noble Lord asked me
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a question which has intrigued me a great deal—namely, on the use of timber houses. I know timber houses and how good they are. Of course, we can use timber houses only if we can get the timber from this country, because the balance of payments makes it extremely difficult for us in these days to get timber from other places. My Lords, as the debate proceeds other noble Lords will raise questions. Let me assure your Lordships that Her Majesty's Government will give the closest attention to any such questions. There has been some doubt whether we were wise in saying that we should endeavour to build 300,000 houses. To-day I have given your Lordships the evidence on which we based our opinion: it was the capacity of the industry. But never mind whether we were wise or not. The truth is, that we have embarked on a bold adventure. We have been chided perhaps for putting the target too high. I agree it may be that circumstances that we cannot control may prevent us from reaching it. But let us face this fact: the target is not high enough to meet the needs of the people of this country, and we, as a Government, dare do no less than aim at the highest that is within the possible bounds of accomplishment; and we shall strive, without ceasing, to that end.
4.32 p.m.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: My Lords, in asking for the indulgence of the House I hope I may be forgiven for pointing out that it is not the easiest of tasks for one who has been a referee for a good many years to return to the ranks of the players. However, I am greatly relieved by the assurances of my noble friends that, whilst there may be hard hitting, rough play is not favoured in your Lordships' House. But, lest I be tempted, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, will forgive me if, on this occasion, I do not follow him, though on one or two of his remarks I should very much like to do so. We are all greatly concerned about the problem of housing. As the most reverend Primate said, it is the most vital and urgent domestic problem before us to-day. I think my noble friend Lord Silkin was right in pointing out that the late Government had made a very good start; but the waiting lists are still increasing.

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As a former housing committee chairman and a Member of Parliament for one of the Divisions of Leeds, I know that city and its housing problems perhaps better than any other. Notwithstanding every effort, year by year the housing lists in that city increase in number, and there are now nearer 30,000 than 20,000 applicants. Moreover, at least 16,000 houses were condemned long before the war as unfit for human habitation, but they look as though they may continue to be occupied for very many years to come. Therefore the proposals of this or any ether Government to relieve or solve this problem deserve full and fair consideration.
We are all aware that the present proposals differ from those of the late Government in two main respects: first, in the permissive use of up to 50 per cent. of the allocations which are made to local authorities for private building, and, secondly, the decision to encourage the sale of council houses. I am a believer, as I imagine most of your Lordships are, in house-ownership and in the activities of building societies and other bodies which help to that end, and I would welcome a greater measure of private building and house sale, subject to one principal condition—namely, that the letting of houses to the most needy cases and to those who cannot afford to buy a house is not thereby unduly prejudiced. Here, my Lords, I think the Government's proposals fail. Surely, it is clear, beyond peradventure, that if, out of any given number of completed houses, the proportion of houses sold to those who can afford to buy is increased, then the number of houses available for letting must necessarily be reduced. Similarly, if council houses are sold, surely it is clear that the pool of houses available for letting must be reduced, and in that way those who must rent a house will be put further back in the queue. In point of fact, in both cases the purchaser obtains an advantage over the prospective tenant, who is often, and indeed usually, because he presumably has less means, in greater need.
My Lords, the only justification for these changes would be the production of more houses. Apart from the possible reduction of standards of accommodation and, one gathers, some cessation of other forms of building, I have yet to hear from any Government speaker any substantial proposal which would result in the pro-
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duction of more houses. Surely this is the really crucial point without which the Government proposals get us nowhere. Indeed, as the noble Lord has said, the promise, or target, or aim, or hope, of 300,000 houses within a year, has already receded into the dim and distant future.
LORD WOOLTON: I did not say that.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: As the noble Lord has said, he and no doubt many others would be glad if it could be forgotten altogether. It is no reflection on the last Government that they were unable to do more than in fact they did do. As my noble friend Lord Silkin has said, they succeeded to an inheritance of bombed premises and an industry which hardly existed at the end of the war; to a position where the majority of workers were in the forces, and there was a great shortage of materials, and other difficulties. Now conditions are different. Much of the really urgent work has been done. The building trade is better organised, materials are much more plentiful, sites are prepared and much construction is on the way.
The great difficulty is obviously that of labour. In Leers, in pre-war days, there were some 2,500 tradesmen. There are probably the same number now, but only 1,000 are engaged on corporation work. Why is that? I am advised that the reasons are several in number. There is much alternative employment under better conditions. A number of large firms now have their own building staffs. Some tradesmen are or have been, employed on repairs or maintenance or similar work, or on factories where cost is not the first essential and higher wages can be paid. Then in a large city there is always a call for workers to go outside the city, to smaller towns and so on, to carry out factory or other work on a more remunerative basis; and if a contractor can obtain non-competitive work, either outside or inside the city, he naturally prefers to take on work of that type.
Therefore it seems to me that the great necessity is to endeavour to bring workers back to the cities and to municipal work. Here, I am going to venture to make a suggestion and to give what I hope may be good though, perhaps, unpalatable advice to the Government. The only way to increase the labour force is to offer greater incentives. That may be a matter

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for regret, but I believe it to be a fact. I am afraid that local authorities must be allowed to pay higher prices than have been the case. At present, tenders are submitted to regional officers, who work on a ceiling of average prices and occasionally turn down tenders. These officers should, I suggest, be given a wider discretion, especially in large cities where the need and the difficulties are greatest. Incidentally, I should like to ask how the proposed regional body is to differ from the arrangement which is now carried out. At present, as I understand it, regional officers of the Housing, Works and Labour Department consult together. If there is to be a new body—as I gather there is—I shall be glad to know how that will differ from the old arrangement, and also whether local authorities will be represented upon it. If not, I think they ought to be.
Adverting to the question of prices, here, again, I understand, there is little or no liaison between the different Government contract-authorising Departments. The Ministry of Education, for example, allows much higher prices per square foot for the building of schools—which one would imagine to be simple work—than does the Ministry of Housing for houses; and the Home Office authorises higher prices, too. Houses, however, are clearly the first necessity, and I therefore suggest that consideration should be given to giving better contracts, thereby encouraging more contractors to compete and to pay better wages. That step, combined with the stoppage of other classes of building, would gradually bring contractors and tradesmen back into the industry and we should get more houses.
Finally, and speaking for myself only, I venture to suggest that the possibility and practicability of prefabricated temporary houses or bungalows be again considered. We are barely holding our own in the big cities, but if numbers of temporary houses were built, thousands would have a home of their own who have otherwise no hope for years to come. In the future, when we hope the building of permanent houses will have begun to overtake demand, the numbers occupying temporary houses can be reduced and transfers made, until the full complement of permanent houses has been built. With regard to what has been said by my noble friend concerning timber
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houses, though I think there are other forms of construction for temporary houses which will probably be more practical in this country than building with timber, the construction of temporary houses would, in any event, employ labour not normally employed on the production of houses; and they can be erected easily and quickly. This course may be expensive, but the need is great, and I know, from personal experience, that hundreds, indeed, probably thousands, of couples would prefer a temporary bungalow with reasonable amenities to continuing to live in overcrowded or slum conditions or, as in so many cases, with relatives. The proposal would have one great advantage. Houses could be built on sites which are too small for any estate of permanent houses, or are, perhaps, not fully developed, or are partly occupied by premises which, in due course, will come down. These sites frequently have drains, water, roads and other services near at hand, and this would avoid the necessity of having to provide those services at enormous expense, as is so frequently the case with new estates at a considerable distance on the outskirts of cities. I commend that suggestion to the Government.
My Lords, I should have wished to say a word or two on the subject which was raised by the most reverend Primate, that of the maintenance and repair of existing privately-owned property, but I think that, on this occasion, I will content myself by urging the Government to give close attention to the position in that regard and to provide the means of doing the work necessary. On the general question of providing houses for those who so badly need them, I will conclude by wishing the Government, and, indeed, all concerned in the work, God speed.
4.46 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, my first happy task this afternoon is to congratulate the noble Lord who has just made his maiden speech in this House, and I am sure that I speak for every noble Lord present when I extend a welcome to him. Although his having sat as a "referee," as he termed it, may have made it more difficult for him to make a speech, it certainly did not in any way incapacitate the noble Lord. Perhaps it made it easier for him to make the

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ideal maiden speech, which is one without too much controversial matter in it. At any rate, I am sure that we all welcome the noble Lord, after his great services in another place, to our deliberations here.
We are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for initiating this debate to-day. I am glad that it had to be postponed from the date for which it was originally put down, otherwise I should not have been here to take part. One thing winch struck me about the noble Lord's speech was that he referred with complete composure and, I thought, with a little complacency to what the previous Government had done in the matter of houses. He accused the Conservative Party—and I suppose a certain number of us here were included in the category—of making reckless promises at the last General Election when we promised a target of 300,000 houses. It may be that none of us expected that target to increase from 195,000 to 300,000 in one year, but that, of course, is the target which (despite what the noble Lord who has just sat down has said) we hope, and still believe, we can accomplish within a measurable space of time. But if conditions when the Labour Government took over in 1945 were as bad as Lord Silkin made them out to be, what frightfully reckless promises we had at that Election!We were promised millions of houses within a short space of time. I do not believe that the promise to try to get 300,000 houses is an excessive one. After all, before the war, from 1934 to 1938, the number built each year never fell below 344,000, and in 1938 about 367,000 permanent houses were completed.
It is clear that, with the present rearmament programme to which we are all committed, this is not the easiest time to raise the housing target. But I hope and believe that we can achieve our figure. The first requisite, of course, is the land. It is true that there are a fairly large number of sites available. I believe—as I pointed out when I interrupted the noble Lord in his speech—that there were quite a number of sites available for housing in 1945. In my view, if we are going to have any considerable amount of private building, as contrasted with local government building, we shall find that the provisions of the
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Town and Country Planning Act will get in the way of acquiring the sites needed. Before long we shall have to try to secure from the Government some pronouncement on what, if anything, they propose to do in regard to the Town and Country Planning Act. If the Act is allowed to remain as it is, it will not be long before there has to be some Treasury scheme for the compensation to be paid. The assessments are coining in and are being agreed now by the district valuers, and it o ill not be long before it can be easily ascertained whether the £300,000,000 will be too much—which I doubt—or not nearly enough. Whatever a Communist Government might do about taking away a man's rights without payment, however near to that the Labour Government might have gone without the risk of attaching to themselves the label of Communist, I do not know; but I know that it would be fatal if a Conservative Government did not pay in full what its own officers had assessed as the proper compensation. I think this matter should be looked into pretty soon.
I have said that the question of sites would be more difficult for private builders because, of course, the local authorities have power to requisition land. The Central Land Board can requisition on behalf of private builders, but that is a far more roundabout way and we might find ourselves held up for want of land on which to build. The second thing required is adequate supplies of building materials. I believe that there is considerable delay in supplies of roofing slates. It takes about eighteen months to deliver after the order is given. I cannot think why that should be so. Perhaps the slate mines are undermanned, but there is still plenty of slate in Wales, and there are plenty of roofing tiles. Plasterboard takes rather long to deliver, but I am told that there is plenty of plywood, which in many cases can be a substitute. Although there is a shortage of facing bricks, there are plenty of common bricks, and if we reverted to the old practice of rough casting, we could use common bricks and meet the difficulty of the shortage of facing bricks.
Cement is sometimes difficult, and if we look round the countryside we can see the reason. The length of cement roads and kerbs which seems to be required for a modern school amazes me.

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It is quite unnecessary for education to have to walk the last part of the way down a cement road: one does not walk down a cement highway to get to the school. I believe that local education authorities are being frightfully extravagant in this kind of thing and are depriving the building trade of cement needed to build homes for people. I hope a lot of that extravagance will be eliminated. I like to see good new schools, but a school costing £200,000 for 500 pupils can have some things cut out without in any way depriving the children of good classrooms and a good school. I am thinking of the kind of school which has classrooms built only on one side of the passage. When it is a bungalow school there can easily be lights in the top of the passage, and classrooms on both sides. That would save a large length of walling. In some modern schools we have not only a gymnasium, but an assembly hall and large dining rooms as well. The assembly hall is not often used and it would do no harm if it were used at other times as a gymnasium. That would cut out one large part of expensive construction and would give us extra labour to build more homes. If we look round, we shall find many ways in which we can economise.
I am told that the soft woods position is good. Soft woods were slightly easier to get last year, and we imported the biggest supply since the war, 1,650,000 standards. In regard to substitutes, I am glad to see that my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government has brought in Sir Percy Mills to help him. I know what good work Sir Percy Mills did in the days of the war, and I am certain that he will get down to the practical task of seeing where substitutes can be used, and advising the Minister accordingly. Next comes the actual allotting of contracts to build. I believe that the Minister is right in allotting contracts for a number of houses to be built outside the purview of the local authorities. We can probably rely on the local authorities' keeping up the same rate as last year, which was 190,000 houses, and I believe that the rest have to be obtained by other means. I was delighted to hear my noble friend Lord Woolton say that he thought the small builders could build three or four houses
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a year. No doubt they could do that without needing extra men, because they could work them in on house building between jobs of repairs. When we look in local builders' yards, it is extraordinary to see the amount of material lying in them; if they could build houses, they could use some of that material and that would avoid their having to make demands on materials in short supply.
I hope that we shall go a little further than my noble friend Lord Woolton suggested and allow any builder to erect four houses a year conforming to local government building by-laws without having to procure a licence. We must rid the licensing authority of some of the burdens put upon them, and this would be a step in that direction. I would also relieve the licensing authority of the need to license repairs for houses. We must keep the existing houses in the best repair that we can. With the present cost of repairs, no sensible owner would wish to be extravagant and will want only to keep the house in habitable repair. This would also relieve the licensing authority of a further burden, and would enable them to deal more promptly with licences for new building and for the expansion or conversion of existing buildings. If we can relieve the licensing authority of these duties, we shall get other things through far more quickly.
I should also like to see some of the big building contractors put on large-scale constructions, particularly in some of the new towns. We talk of new towns as though they are something new in our midst, invented since the war. But, of course, they are not. I represented the constituency of Uxbridge, and anybody who has visited that district will know of the building that took place at Hayes and Harlington and Ruislip—a whole new town, that of South Ruislip, suddenly grew up. That was all done by some of the large building contractors: they knew they had a job to do, not of building ten or twenty houses but hundreds; they took down their cranes, their road-making machinery, and so on, and got on with the job. The whole thing was planned so that the bricklayers went from house to house, and were followed by the carpenters, the slaters, and so on. If we are to get these 100,000 extra houses something like that will have to be done. For my part, in these difficult times I should like to see more houses built in

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terraces. I do not know why everybody is so much against the terrace and in favour of the semi-detached house. In Sloane Square, and many other similar places, the houses are built in terraces—they are not called terraces, but nevertheless they are terraces—and being built in such a fashion they economise by saving a large number of walls. If they are well constructed, I see no objection to building houses in terraces. Probably some noble Lords opposite have seen the T.U.C. memorial houses in Tolpuddle, in Dorset. That is a very fine memorial: the houses are built in a terrace, and they do not look out of place, even in a delightful Dorset landscape. So let us economise in the outer walls—
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY): And in land.
LORD LLEWELLIN: And in land, as I am reminded—by building some of these houses in terraces—although if the noble Lord means, by economising in land, not having so much garden, I must say that in the country I am all in favour of a man having a sufficiency of garden to grow his own vegetables.
I believe that by concentrating the greater part of house building in the hands of local authorities the late Government were instrumental in causing fewer houses to be built—I say that for this reason: local authorities are less adaptable, and if the materials were not forthcoming it was not easy to make a change. The plans had been approved regionally, and perhaps centrally, and to get an alteration for the use of tiles instead of slates involved so much correspondence with the regional office, or headquarters in London, that they preferred to wait until something came. That sort of thing does not go on where the private builder builds the houses. Another point which was greatly to the disadvantage of local authorities was this. Since almost nobody could get a house except through local councils the number of names on the housing lists included everybody who wanted a house; whereas before the war, when people could get houses outside the local authorities, their waiting lists were not half as big. By concentrating them all, it looked as if the late Government had done even worse than they had in regard to the housing situation—if
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noble Lords understand what I mean by that.
Finally, I should like to say a few words on the question of man-power. I believe that the noble Lord was right when he said that we have approximately the same number of people in the building trade now as we lad before the war. I have already said that I hope a great many more will be employed on building homes. I believe—some noble Lords will have heard me say this sort of thing before—that we can get more work out of the men by giving them more incentive. The incentive I continue to press for is not to pay them more, but to arrange that they shall not be taxed on their overtime earnings. I know that this raises difficult problem It will be said that by putting more money, untaxed, in the hands of the workmen, there will be still more money chasing fewer goods. However, my suggestion to overcome that problem is this: let them have their overtime, tax-free, if they put the money they earn in overtime into the cost of buying a house. Many people would work much harder if they thought they were working overtime in order to get a home of their own. I have not the slightest doubt that every pundit in the Treasury will "go up in the air" at a suggestion of that sort, but if we are to get more houses built, we must try new methods.
There is one other point that I wish to make on the man-power question. There are ways in which the building trade unions can help. At the present moment, when a new refinery or power station is being built, in quite a number of cases—either because the pipes are not laid out correctly, or because it is easier to build a straight wall and then cut holes in it for the pipes to go through—there is a great deal of cutting out of brickwork to be done. I am told that when a big power station was being built, 25 per cent. of the bricklayer's time was occupied in cutting out holes in the bricks, rather than in laying them. There are machines which can do this work, and I asked an experienced building contractor about it. I said, "Are they easy to work?" and he said, "Even you could work one after about half-an-hour." It is just a machine which will bore a hole in bricks in the same way as you have a hole bored in your tooth.

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All that is necessary is to hold the machine steady, and yet the unions insist that it should be a bricklayer's job. It need not be a bricklayer's job. I know that talks are going on between both sides of the industry. As the noble Lord, Lord Woolton said, there is plenty of work for bricklayers to do, and it is the real work of laying bricks. That will go on for years, and they will not work themselves out of a job by allowing other people to take on these new tools. But they could then do the invaluable job of laying more bricks to build more homes for the people.
I am obliged to your Lordships for listening to me for so long. Of course I wish the Government well. I believe that they have started to tackle this problem in the right way. It will still need a great deal of drive and energy to complete it, but I am quite certain that the drive and energy will be forthcoming. I am one of those who believe that in one or two years, at any rate before the end of the lifetime of this Parliament, we shall have produced the 300,000 houses aimed at.
5.14 p.m.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, this debate appears to be a long-distance marathon race, so far as the number of speakers and the length of speeches are concerned. I will therefore try to be as speedy as possible. In a debate on the subject of housing, any attempt to cover the whole ground is likely only to lead to redundancy and a waste of public time, and therefore I will concentrate on a very few points. In the best sense this is a non-Party debate, and I am sure that all concerned will persist, whatever Government are in power, to carry out their building policies, even although they may not agree with all that the Government propose. It appears to me that, so long as the maximum number of houses are constructed at reasonable speed and at a reasonable cost, it is a matter of secondary importance whether the method employed is local authority building or building by private enterprise.
As your Lordships know, local authorities employ the contracting builders who make their financial arrangements and organise their business in one way. The private house builder, as distinct from the contracting builder, makes his financial
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arrangements and organises his business in a somewhat different way. In my view, it is a pity that the contracting builder or the private house builder should be asked or required at any time to do a job other than the particular job for which he is specially qualified. The only criticism which I have to make about the Government's policy is that they are taking up a somewhat modified attitude towards private enterprise. I always thought that when we had a Conservative Government back in power it would be the next best thing to a Liberal Government. I am not quite sure when the Liberal Party are coming back into power—I have not consulted the oracle on the subject recently—but I had hoped that the Conservative Party would be very much more in favour of private enterprise than they are showing themselves to be. A considerable number of people in the building trade are rather pained, to put it mildly, at the somewhat disappointing attitude of the present Government towards private enterprise.
I have said something about the difference between the contracting builder and the private house builder, and that leads me to make the suggestion that the general position would be greatly simplified if local authorities were allowed to build only for people who were unable to purchase their own houses—that is to say, if they were restricted to building for the purpose of letting. The private house builder—and this is a heresy with which your Lordships will not agree—should be allowed to build houses either for sale or letting, according to the desire of the builder. Where no subsidy is given, private enterprise should be granted licences without any control of price, or selection of purchasers or tenants. On the other hand, if a subsidy is given, say up to £150, then it is quite fair that the local authority should control the selling price.
Furthermore, private enterprise should not be penalised as it is at the present time. One has to be very careful when dealing with the subject of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, especially in the presence of the noble Lord the mover of this Motion, who is the architect, or at any rate the sponsor, of that Statute. I think that I am right in saying that, broadly speaking, local authorities are exempt wholly—certainly

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they are partly—from the payment of development charge. The matter is dealt with in the rather complicated provisions of Sections 82 and 83 of the Town and Country Planning Act. I will not go into them in detail, but they provide in substance that although the local authority is not called upon to pay a development charge, it may have to make a payment to the Central Land Board in lieu of that charge. The Statute then goes on to say that the Central Land Board may repay to the local authority the money which the local authority has in the first instance paid to the Central Land Board. How that conundrum works out in practice I do not profess to know. One thing I do know, and that is that the private house builder has to pay 100 per cent. development charge on any development which he undertakes within the meaning of that word in the Town and Country Planning Act,. 1947. I submit to the Government that they should look into the question of the imposition of development charges upon private house builders, because these charges are factors which militate against private house builders reducing the cost of building undertaken by them.
I will now say a few words about the control of building materials. I think the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, was the only one of your Lordships to refer to any of these materials in any detail. There are a great number of people in this country, some of whom are very ignorant, who say that controls ought to be abolished but fail to give any reason for their assertion. I am going to be rather more careful and ask the Government whether they consider that the control of building materials is necessary at all, or at any rate to the extent to which it exists at the present time. Let us examine these materials briefly in detail. So far as bricks are concerned, there are plenty of brickworks in this country to provide all the bricks required if enough coal is forthcoming. So far as cement is concerned, there is more cement than is necessary for our own use and, in fact, a considerable amount of cement is exported. As for timber, this has been partly freed from control, so far as hardwoods are concerned. All softwoods, which are the woods mostly used in housing, should be freed completely and handed back to the timber merchants, who will, as in pre-war years, get us all the timber
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we want at the lowest prices. I wonder how that statement will register in the minds of the Government, or indeed of anybody else.
One does not wish to be unfair but it is noticeable that softwoods for housing were approximately £10 to £18 per standard in 1939; now, under timber control, they are from £125 to £150 per standard. It does not appear that the control of softwoods has contributed at all towards any diminution in price, remembering all the time, of course, that prices have automatically risen in the last twelve years. As for lime, plasters, tiles and slates, these are produced by our own country and all that is needed is that the Government should provide coal, transport and labour for their production. I submit that no control here is needed. As for steel, very little is needed in housing; it is only necessary for rods in concrete—when I say "housing," I mean the construction of dwelling-houses; I am not referring, of course, to the construction of colossal Government offices.
Finally, may I dwell upon one miscellaneous but not. I hope, unimportant point? When the selling price of a house to-day is controlled by the local authority, the builder is often placed in a difficult position. In days gone by, if I employed a builder to build a house, I had to pay the builder instalments as the building proceeded. Now, where the selling price is controlled the builder is often kept out of his money until the house is sold—that is to say, he may in practice be kept out of his money for any period between six and eighteen months. Again—although I am quite sure that many of your Lordships will not agree with me on this point—the margin between the actual cost to the builder of building a house and the permitted selling price is often small. When it is remembered that in many cases the builder has to pay interest on money which he has been obliged to borrow for the purpose of building, this already small margin may be even further reduced. I have no ulterior motive whatsoever in making the suggestion, but I do say to the Government that the builder is entitled to more consideration in the matter of fixing the permitted selling price. These are only a few observations. They should not be strictly related to each other. They are meant to be, not criticisms of the Government's policy but

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merely suggestions which I hope will be considered.
5.26 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, in rising on this first occasion to address your Lordships, I wish to claim the usual forbearance which is given to new speakers and to ask your forgiveness and excuse if I make mistakes into which a newcomer may easily fall. It is not, however, the first time that I have had an opportunity of speaking in this Chamber. When it was occupied by the Members of another place, I usually spoke more or less from this particular Bench. Therefore in a way I am glad to be back again in this Chamber. But I do find a difference, and noble Lords who have recently been in another place will no doubt agree with me that the quiet atmosphere of this House, the seriousness of the debate—because we have had a very fine debate this afternoon and some excellent speeches—and the general tone are totally different from that which we often found in the other place.
In a maiden speech, I do not want in any shape or form to be at all critical of or antagonistic to anything which has been said. Some points were made by the noble Lord who has just sat down with which possibly some of your Lordships may not agree. We could certainly call to task on one or two points the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, who spoke a few moments ago. But it is not my province at this point to touch upon those matters. The most reverend Primate referred to the fact that during the Election he had the advantage of being abroad. That advantage was not mine and, contrary to the general experience of noble Lords in this House at the present time, I was an elector. As an elector, I received all sorts of literature and I noticed all sorts of promises which were made by the Conservative Party. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, came into my own constituency and addressed a meeting in the village in which I used to live and in which I was well known. I was glad to hear what the noble Lord said this afternoon as to the intention and, indeed, the determination of the Government to tackle this problem; but on that occasion, so far as I can see from the reports of his speech, he was not very concerned about the question of housing. His main concern was to
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tell the Liberals of Norfolk that Norfolk was represented generally by a lot of wicked Socialists and it was high time that the Liberal Party joined with the Conservative Party. Be that as it may, many promises were made during the Election, and I think we, who were the electors—it is not my wish to tell your Lordships how I voted or whether I was persuaded by those promises—have the right, not at the present time but in the months or even in the years to come, to know whether or not those particular promises and suggestions have been carried out.
I want to give the Government a fair field. I think they are entitled to it, and if they can do as they hope to do, particularly in regard to housing, then the country as a whole will agree with me that a very fine job of work has been done. Noble Lords on this side of the House are prepared to give credit where credit is due; but I consider it is within our province to condemn if failure takes place. Both sides of this House are well aware, as has been said once or twice this afternoon, that the greatest domestic problem we have at the present time lies in the homes of the people. Like other noble Lords who have preceded me in joining this House, I come from a county constituency, and I am well aware of the tragedies, the anxieties and the distresses occasioned by the housing conditions of the people in some of the rural areas and in some of the small towns. My post-bag in the last six or seven years has been full of requests for assistance to obtain a house in some form or another. I have been told of the homes which have been wrecked. I have been told of the terrible conditions, the crowded conditions, the inability to rear families, the distress of living with "in-laws," which many hundreds of thousands of the people of Britain have had to undergo; and if we, in our generation, can solve this particular question, then I think history will say—I make no pun at all—that the people were wise in their generation.
I have noticed during the course of the afternoon that something which I thought had receded into more or less oblivion has cropped up again, and that is the housing target. My noble friend Lord Milner suggested that it had receded, and the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, in an aside, more or less told us that

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he had not said it. I want your Lordships to look at that target. It is well known that the Labour Government in the last six years built well over 1,000,000 houses, more or less at the rate of 200,000 a year—not quite that, on an average, but very nearly. The target of 300,000 is an increase of 50 per cent. That means an increase of 50 per cent. in regard to materials: of 50 per cent. in regard, I expect, to imported timber and such like; of 50 per cent. in regard to labour (unless this week we can develop some means of quickening things up); of 50 per cent. in regard to transport, and of 50 per cent. in regard to land areas, and so on. I hold the view that, whatever we may think will be the outcome of the next two or three years, under present conditions, or any conditions similar to those we have at the present time, that target cannot be reached. For the sake of clearness, let me break down those figures a little. If you divide 300,000 houses a year by twelve, you get 25,000 per month; roughly, 1,000 houses to be erected in Britain per working day each month; 125 houses per hour of an eight-hour day, or thereabouts, and two houses every minute. To do that presents a colossal problem and I do not believe it can possibly be solved, either by the present Government or any Government which may come into power in the immediate future.
We have heard of the building of houses prior to the war, but there is nothing comparable in Britain at the present time to the housing estates and the houses which were built under the Labour Government. I know that the private builders, if they can obtain the finance and materials, can build the small bungalows and small houses which we see as the creations in pre-war years of the private builders. But what we have to aim at for our people is not only the provision of the walls and roof of a house, but the creation of a home, with all the amenities, all the services, which we can provide. I was astounded to hear the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, suggest that the amenities could wait. What are those amenities? When we build our houses in country districts, can we wait for electricity; can we go back to the oil lamp stage? Can we wait for water? Can we wait for those little amenities inside the house which are so important for the housewife? Of course we cannot. When
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we create a home, we have to provide the amenities which the people want.
I desire, in passing, to talk particularly about the rural areas. Many noble Lords have expressed the desire this afternoon that private enterprise should build homes; but I say, I think without fear of contradiction, that the only people who can provide homes for the countryside are the local authorities. Where do you find among the working classes in the villages of Britain the people who can afford to buy or to build their own houses, in these times of high prices? I have a very considerable experience of rural housing in country districts and I say that we must provide houses to rent. It is important from the point of view of our farming industry because our men will not remain on the land unless they can have the choice of a house. It may be, or it may not be, that the problem of the tied house has been debated many times and oft in this House, but I say that the greatest incentive to keep our men on the land is to provide them with a reasonably-rented council house in the village. The days of the tied cottage are gone, and if we have to increase our production, as indeed we must, then we must in very truth supply the needs of the countryside so far as houses are concerned, and in my view the only people to do that are the local authorities. Figures have been given of the numbers of licences which are being issued, but I think it would be a tremendous mistake, at any rate so far as the rural areas are concerned, if a check were not kept on the local authorities in regard to the percentage of council louses to privately-built houses. I was astounded the other day to hear that one rural authority (I think it was in Norfolk) had said that their next allocation would provide for 50 per cent. private houses and 50 per cent. council house. The demand for privately-built houses will gradually diminish if this sort of thing goes on, because there is not the demand among agricultural workers in rural Britain to own their own houses. They want houses to rent. Therefore I hope that the Government will see to it that the local authorities are kept well up to scratch in regard to the erection of rural houses.
There is another point which has not been touched upon this afternoon but which I think we need to bear in mind.

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During recent weeks we have heard requests that the Government would take steps to build on bombed and other sites. I hope that restrictions will be imposed upon anyone who desires to build houses in towns or elsewhere on sites which could be kept as permanent open spaces. There are many of these small areas in our cities and towns. We do not want to perpetuate the old system of slums, alleyways and backyards, which may easily develop if we go in for the erection of houses on inadequate sites in our cities and towns. I would far rather see these spaces kept open and be of benefit to the community in the densely-populated areas.
My final point refers to the purchase of houses. How are we to encourage the purchase of houses by young married couples with children? I am speaking now not of council houses but of privately-built houses. There should be some sort of control over the price of these houses. One has only to look in the papers at lists of houses for sale to be astounded at the prices which young people are being asked to pay for small semi-detached and other houses. I am sure that, although the prices of such houses are now being reduced (or so I understand), they are still much too high; and it is impossible for young people, in these days of high costs of living, to pay the prices which private owners are asking. I know the matter is a difficult one; I know that it is a problem the solution of which requires a good deal of consideration; but I am certain that the prices of these small houses are far in excess of the present-day value. If something could be done with regard to this matter I am sure it would be of benefit to all our people.
Perhaps I may be allowed to support what was said by my noble friend Lord Silkin in his concluding words. We want a solution of the housing problem in this country; and we on these Benches will give the greatest support to the Government if they succeed in the task before them. On the other hand, if they fail I am sure they will have to face heavy condemnation.
5.46 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I am sure the whole House would wish me to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wise, on the excellent speech which he has just made and also on accommodating himself
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so quickly to the atmosphere of this Chamber. The noble Lord has had considerable experience in the subject which we are discussing and I am sure that his views on these matters will always be treated with great respect in your Lordships' House.
I desire to speak on the question of housing targets but I shall do so from the comparatively limited point of view of the local authority: I do not intend to go into the global question. The housing lists which have been mentioned are not, perhaps, a very accurate indication of housing needs, but they are the only indication we have. If one compares the housing lists with the number of houses that have been constructed the results are rather disquieting. In many parts of the country the housing lists appear to be growing faster than the number of houses which are being built. Perhaps I may be allowed to give one or two figures from my own county of East Sussex. In the borough of Hove in two years there have been built about 300 houses. In the same period the waiting list has increased by about 50. Since 1947, the Uckfield Rural District Council have built about 730 houses but the waiting list has now 80 more names on it than when they started. All over Sussex a similar tendency exists: we have built over 6,000 houses but the waiting list is now over 8,500 and has gone up in the last two years. These figures are disquieting, because they show that we are not even keeping up with the housing problem, much less solving it. And this is despite the amount of agricultural land that is being used up: I believe that the equivalent of one good-sized farm is disappearing from our countryside every year. That might not be so bad if an end to the process were in sight, but unfortunately it is not. Already suggestions are being made that in order to safeguard our more fertile land we should use Ashdown Forest—a piece of country in which your Lordships were very interested a few months ago—or part of it, for housing purposes.
It is difficult, without an elaborate survey, to discover the reasons for this never-ending demand. I have no doubt that part of it is due to natural causes—increase of population and in the numbers of marriages, and so forth, which even the most rabid of planners may

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hesitate to try to control. It is also quite clearly due to migration from outside. We calculate that since the war in East Sussex we have had about 27,000 migrants from outside, apart altogether from the new town of Crawley. These migrants include very different classes of people. To begin with, they include no less a person than the noble Lord the Lord President of the Council, who has already spoken in this debate. People like the noble Lord are political and social assets, and they are also rateable assets. Then there are the increasing number of ex-Labour Ministers who, whatever they may do in the week, seem to find relaxation in our rather Conservative part of the world. They, too, are social and rateable assets, although perhaps they are a little more controversial.
There is no problem about people who come and purchase houses, and live there, but there are all kinds of other migrants who are giving rise to very serious difficulties. For example, there are the caravanners. I read somewhere that there are no fewer than 300,000 people in this country whose sole place of residence is a caravan. I do not know whether that is true, but certainly we seem to have our fair proportion of them in Sussex. We are continually getting new applications for caravan sites, and it is very difficult to know what to do about them. Despite the magnificence of some of these caravans, in some cases they are sub-standard dwellings; and though indirectly they pay a form of rates, they are not an asset but a debit to the rates. Moreover, unless special precautions are taken, the inhabitants of these caravans acquire a residence qualification for the area and thus in time, if they wish to exercise it, they have a claim for a new council house. It is very difficult to know what to do about these people. It is inhuman to attempt to send them away when we know that they have nowhere else to go, but at the same time it means our having to submit to developments which we do not want. We are trying to differentiate between our own indigenous caravanners and those from outside, but we do not know whether we shall succeed.
Undoubtedly, one thing is driving the people to seek new homes—the decay and obsolescence of their present homes. After the speeches that have been made to-day, I do not know whether anybody
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can contend that this obsolescence is not proceeding at a most alarming rate. I noticed that in their report for last year the Association of Sanitary Inspectors, who have great experience in this matter, state quite specifically that the rate of deterioration of existing houses in large towns is going on much faster than the rate at which new houses are being built. They also draw attention to the virtual breakdown of the pre-war system of compulsory closure of houses that are unfit for human habitation. In fact, my Lords, there seems to be a pressure of events under which houses tend to get worse and worse, but can never be demolished or replaced. It was the declared policy of the late Government to concentrate almost entirely on the building of new houses. In fact, one had a feeling in debates on housing that the answer to every question was really the same—namely, that that was the Government policy, and that the remainder was simply a question of mathematical calculation as to how materials, labour and capital should be divided between different authorities. It is true that they introduced the 1949 Act to give improvement grants, but it appears that the conditions and strings attached to that Act were such that it has not been of much practical value. Your Lordships will remember that the late Government excluded from its operation tied agricultural cottages. In passing, I should like to say, quite sincerely, that as an owner of agricultural property I feel that while I was given every encouragement by the late Government to improve accommodation for my cows, I received none to improve accommodation for my agricultural tenants. That is rather an unexpected result, but I think many owners of agricultural land would agree that that is so.
Reference has already been made to-day to the Rent Restrictions Acts. Your Lordships will remember that the late Government agreed that the Rent Restrictions Acts should be amended, but they were unable to tackle that matter. In the opinion of all the experts, those Acts are largely responsible for the decay and obsolescence which is going on. I do not pose in any way as a housing expert, and I have no doubt that there are many good reasons for these decisions. But when I see this migration of people seeking new homes for old, I can-

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not help wondering whether this legislative neglect of old, existing houses is altogether wise. I have seen some of the new towns and settlements, and I think they are extremely impressive; but, as your Lordships know very well, they involve a great deal more than the mere building of the houses. Certainly, they involve new roads, sewers and water installations, and probably schools and clinics—indeed, the whole apparatus of the Welfare State. All that is very expensive in capital outlay.
Then there is the further point that the people who get these new houses enjoy a considerable subsidy of at least £22 a year to enable them to have good housing conditions. It is, in fact, a form of social service. But people who are living in old houses cannot get a similar subsidy to improve their housing conditions. I know that already complaints are being made in my part of the world that at any rate some people are having to contribute, through the rates, to the housing of people who are considerably better off than they themselves. It may be due to some sense of injustice, but I have noticed that some rather ingenious ways are being tried out to get over this particular difficulty. The other day I heard of two cases which I must confess surprised me a good deal. The first was a case of a man who was summoned for being in arrears under a maintenance order. An inquiry into his means disclosed the fact that he was receiving from public assistance £6 a week, £3 of which was to enable him to keep a second family in a hired caravan. In the other case a man, without any apparent means, somehow managed to get the lease of a large house, the rent of which was £90 a year. He then also succeeded in pursuading the Public Assistance Board to pay for the whole of the rent, plus the rates, though certain conditions were imposed.
I believe that anomalies like this will increase if, over a long period of years, this distinction is drawn in the matter of rent subsidies between old and new houses. I therefore hope that the present Government will look very carefully into the 1949 Act, and see whether they cannot make it easier to work. I hope they will extend it to the tied agricultural cottage. I hope they will encourage in
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every way the conversion of existing buildings to suit modern needs, especially the modern needs of old people. I agree entirely with what has been said as to suitable accommodation being found for these old people. In the rural areas, particularly, if provision could be made for retired agricultural workers it would have a great effect. I believe that opportunities exist. As one small example, I notice that in one of their reports the National Corporation for the Care of Old People state that many of the existing almshouses could be made good and could attain quite a high standard at much less cost than the building of new houses. I hope, too, that the Government will face up to this chronic question of the Rent Restrictions Acts.
I should like to make a final point about agencies for building and converting, and to commend to your Lordships that form of agency known as the housing association. A housing association is simply a group of people formed for the purpose of building or converting houses. By agreeing to conform to certain statutory conditions they get certain facilities. Now a housing association is a form of private enterprise and, as such, should commend itself to the Conservative Party. It works for profit but at rates laid down by the Treasury; therefore, I think it should commend itself to the Labour Party. Many of these associations have long and honourable traditions which should commend them to all of us. During the last few years these associations have not been able to take on a great deal of new work because nearly all the work there was had to be done by local authorities. But now that Her Majesty's Government—with great wisdom, as I think—have given much wider discretion to local authorities, there is no reason why they should not undertake considerably more work.
I am not asking Her Majesty's Government for any new legislation or, indeed, any new finance. All I am asking is that they should give the housing associations a certain degree of moral encouragement. That ought not to be very difficult as it raises no problems with the Treasury. I feel that if the Government would do what they could to help the housing associations, it would be very much appreciated. It is possible for the Minister and his officials to make a lot of difference to voluntary bodies in a small way.

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In view of the amount which local authorities now have" on their plate," and having regard to the great experience which these associations have had, particularly in dealing with various Departments—notably those concerned with the care of the old and the care of various other classes of people—I believe that the associations can do a great deal to help the Government. They have in their methods a flexibility which is not possible to local authorities, and I think that they could very well do a great deal of the work which local authorities have been doing.
6.5 p.m.
VISCOUNT PORTMAN: My Lords, I rise towards the end of this great debate in your Lordships' House, and I hope that I shall detain you for only a short time. I should like, in the first place, to speak about references which have been made in earlier speeches to the standard of building, the standard of accommodation and the standard of amenities. I can only say how glad I was to hear from all sides how deep is the concern felt about the standard of building, which is, of course, one of the basic factors of all building schemes. As regards the standard of accommodation and the standard of amenities, I think there is still a great deal to be learned, especially in view of what happened under the late Government. As to the matters of rents and the size of houses which people really want, I have myself had experience in one or two housing schemes—especially rural ones—and I know that when it became time for the inhabitants to take over those houses, they were far from satisfied. They were dissatisfied with the number of things that had to be maintained. They considered that there were too many electric points, and there were more bathrooms than they really cared about. So I feel that there is still a certain amount to be learned in regard to the planning of building schemes by local authorities. In view of the larger part which the private builder is going to be allowed to take in the provision of houses, a great deal more elasticity will probably be afforded in regard to such matters as size and type of houses and amount of accommodation. In other words, there will be considerable progress towards meeting the full requirements of the people.
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I am not going to say any more on that topic at the moment, but I want to come now to the picture of the housing situation of the country as a whole. I suggest that we might, for a few moments, look at that from the point of view of units of accommodation rather than entirely from the point of view of new houses. It seems to me that in any new housing programme there is still a large amount to be done with reference to repairs and conversions. This is a subject which has already been dealt with to-day, and I, myself, through my organisation and my office, have been requested to prepare for one of Her Majesty's Ministers specifications in regard to prices of materials and of labour for several schemes involving quite a large number of conversions. We have to consider very carefully this matter of the labour supply. Certainly more labour is taken in the construction of houses, whatever their size, than is required by conversions; and if the Government are going to start off with, shall we say, a first year's possible target of 200,000 houses, I think they might well consider how many more people still they would be able to accommodate if they turned part of their energies—and it can be done—to alleviating the present restrictions on conversions of all types. I do not want to go into technical details and figures, but let us assume that 190,000 houses are to be built accommodating an average of four people each—which would mean housing over 700,000 people altogether. I can assure your Lordships that if conversion schemes were properly handled nearly twice that number could be accommodated in the: first year, and in very considerable comfort too, with reduced prices of material and reduced usage of labour which might well be employed elsewhere.
With reference to repairs, I desire to make a point concerning the present licensing system. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, suggested that repair licences should be wiped out altogether, but I do not think that is feasible. But if we said that repairs up to £500 would be allowed, we should be going a long way towards dealing with the disastrous decay of houses. With regard to both conversions and repairs I must refer to the Town and Country Planning Act. I request the Government to give earnest consideration

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to this matter. I am not going into the matter in detail, because I know that the time of the Government is fully occupied on priority matters such as rearmament, but I should like to suggest that it would be of great value to approach a recognised corporate and technical body, such as the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, which could help the Government by producing a factual, detailed scheme of reconstruction, not from the financial side, but from the legal and technical side, which would enable them to alleviate the effect of that Act in no far distant time, so that we could bring this accommodation problem "up to scratch."
In regard to repairs, I wish to refer to the Rent Restrictions Acts which were passed in 1937 and 1949. Both Acts were of use, but were hamstrung. Here, again, it is a question of technical advice to a heavily-worked Government. I feel that if, from the conversion point of view, the effects of the Town and Country Planning Act could be alleviated, and if, from the repairs point of view, the effects of the Rent Restrictions Acts could be? technically alleviated, in a very short space of time we should see what looks like a far distant object coming towards us at a greater speed than we ever even hoped for.
6.13 p.m.
LORD KENSWOOD: My Lords, at this late hour I feel I should follow the excellent example set by the last speaker, Viscount Portman, and cut my remarks to a minimum. I can do so easily since most of what I wished to say has already been said by previous speakers. But there are one or two points about which I am not entirely satisfied. I should like to say at once that I agree with previous speakers that in certain circumstances it is most desirable for people to own their own houses. May I follow that up by saying that the encouragement now given to people to own their own houses is entirely misplaced? I think the time is most inopportune for that. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has not been able to reassure me that there will not be what has been called "jumping the queue." I cannot see how local authorities can be compelled to put people who are not able to buy houses but who wish to rent them on the same
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basis as those who come forward and say they are prepared to buy a house. It has already been said that this would save the taxpayers' money. It has also been said, possibly not in this House but elsewhere, that encouraging people to buy houses by instalments would be a contribution toward anti-inflation. These two things are certainly admirable. We wish to bring down the expense to the taxpayer and to bring about anti-inflationary measures. But before we do this, we should ask at what cost we are going to embark on these ventures.
I believe that to encourage people to buy houses at the present moment is not a good thing. Let me tell your Lordships what I have in mind. A man may be able to save a couple of hundred pounds by thrift or otherwise. He may be earning enough for him to calculate that he will be able to pay the instalments to buy his house. But does he know what the future is holding for him? He is not necessarily a good business man, and in his effort to get out of the agony of overcrowding or living under bad conditions he may be willing to embark on an enterprise which is going to land him in disaster in the very near future. The head of the family might fall ill, or his industry might move to another part of the country, or he might fall out of work and be unable to pay the instalments. He may not be able to calculate exactly what the upkeep of the house is going to be. So that, in addition to his being worried, his wife and children may have to go short of food or of the comforts which make life really worth living. That is the danger which looms very large in my mind. I think that to encourage people to buy their houses at the present moment is bad, because we are faced with a big migration of labour. We are all aware that at the present moment some industries are less important than others, and we are trying to take workers from the less important to the more important industries, which are often in different localities. Probably it is easy for people who are buying houses by instalments to get rid of their houses; but would it be easy for them to get other houses in a new district?
I should like to comment on two other matters. It has been stated this afternoon that housing should be subservient to

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finance and rearmament. I agree that finance and rearmament loom very large, but I want housing, to some extent at least, to be brought into organic relationship with those two priorities. By cutting down housing or by not giving as free play to housing as we may, are we not making a bad mistake? I allude to the health and the hospital services. Everybody who is connected with them knows the amount of physical and mental illness and moral dislocation which occurs through insanitary houses and over-crowding. I need only draw your Lordships' attention to the terrible toll that tuberculosis takes of the people of this country. I ask, is it not cheaper and more economical—leaving out all consideration of human happiness, which is, of course, very important—to spend money on the prevention of disease, mental, physical and moral, rather than to pay more for medical service, hospitals and juvenile courts? I maintain that the financial considerations have not been fully calculated by Her Majesty's Government.
Now take the question of rearmament. That, again, is connected with the health of the people. I believe that a great deal of absenteeism is due to ill-health. If we can bring about conditions under which the workers of this country are better housed, then I feel we shall cure an appreciable amount of absenteeism. I would go further and say, without fear of contradiction, that a man who is healthy in mind and body and is not worried by overcrowding and the horrible condition;; attendant upon it, will be a happy and efficient worker. That is most important at the present time. Also, with regard to rearmament, it seems wrong to give all our attention to the production of arms and munitions and not to think of the people who have to go through the awful stresses of war, should war come. I feel that part of our rearmament drive should be earnestly concentrated on rehousing, because through better housing we shall get a healthier population and people who are more capable of bearing the arms that are being made and standing up against the horrors of war, should it come. It is the morale and health of the people that will count, should war come. I believe this scheme for encouraging people to buy more houses at an inappropriate moment is wrong, particularly as the
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people who have the means to buy new houses are usually also the people with the knowledge and ability to mitigate the worst horrors of these conditions.
6.24 p.m.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I wish to emphasise what my noble friend Lord Kenswood, and practically every other speaker, has said—namely, that housing has got to be our first priority. I would put the production of houses even in front of the production of atom bombs. I also agrees with Lord Kens-wood when he say;; that if you house people decently that is the best way of keeping up their morale. In this respect, I was pleased when I read the speech of the Prime Minister, Mr. Winston Churchill, to Congress, in which he paid a well-merited tribute to this nation for what we had done between July, 1945, and the end of December, 1951. He mentioned how we had spent our money in what he called "unrequited exports," and went on to say:
"This, added to the cost of turning over our industry from war to peace, and rebuilding homes shattered by bombardment, was more than we could manage without an undue strain upon our life energies, from which we shall require both time and self-discipline to recover."
Sometimes I think it is as well to remember the mandate which was given by the people to the late Government, based upon the experience of the Coalition Government. Speaking from memory, I believe the Coalition Government decided that it was necessary to build 750,000 houses in five years. I well remember the day when Mr. Churchill, as war Prime Minister, told us that Lord Portal (whose absence I shall continue to regret, as I considered him one of our most able Ministers) had a scheme to build 500,000 prefabricated bungalows, as they were called, at a cost of £650 each. I remember, also, that the present Leader of the Opposition in your Lordships' House, the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, was deputed by Mr. Churchill—and later, I believe, by Lord Woolton—to go into the whole problem of housing. I went one afternoon with the noble Earl to Northolt (it was about the third time in my life that I had been in an official car and got something for nothing, which always appeals to a Yorkshireman) to see some prefabricated houses—not bungalows—which could be built in three

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months, given decent weather. I remember the noble Earl, Lord Jowitt, saying: "Why should we spend £650"—this was later increased to £1,500— "in building these prefabricated bungalows which by law can last for only ten years" (I think that is the time they were intended to last) "when we can borrow the money to build on a forty-years' basis, instead of a ten-years' basis?" All the local authorities with which I am in touch in the North of England agree with that. I am glad to say that they ceased building prefabricated houses when the total was 246,000 and went on to build traditional and untraditional houses. I mention untraditional houses, because the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has been talking as if none had been built. I know of one firm in Leeds who have built 20,000 untraditional houses which will last for a good many years. I am glad that many of these houses are being built in the countryside, as well as in the industrial districts.
Altogether, including prefabricated houses and permanent houses, the late Government built 1,500,000 dwellings. But this is the problem that Her Majesty's Government will have to face if they are in office in 1955—which I very much doubt. When the Labour Government were in office it was the first time since Walpole that a Prime Minister had been in office for six years and never lost a by-election, and I am ready to take a wager with the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, who seems sceptical about this, that they will not go three years without losing a by-election—
LORD LLOYD: What are the odds?
LORD CALVERLEY: I will give you twenty-five to one.
LORD LLOYD: Taken.
LORD CALVERLEY: Either in cigars or nuts. Again you are making me digress, and I am sorry. I am not here in a white sheet to apologise for the late Labour Administration. I think we should have an illuminated address, on vellum, suitably inscribed and presented to the former Minister of Health, Mr. Aneurin Bevan—though I am certain he would not thank me for suggesting it—thanking him for the drive he put into building houses and for succeeding in implementing twice over what the
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Coalition Government said should be built. That is "something to write home about." I went down to my old constituency of Hull on one occasion when Mr. Churchill was there and on another occasion when the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, was there. Both of them were deeply moved when they learnt that 88,000 houses had been damaged or destroyed. I was very proud of the fact that in a few weeks 30,000 houses were restored, to some degree, making them fit for human habitation. Hull has a very honourable reputation regarding the number of houses it has built since 1945 in comparison with its population. Nearly 7,000 houses have been built there. I am sorry to see it, but I notice that Hull, which is typical of the bombed areas, built 2,500 of these blots on the landscape, these prefabricated bungalows. I warn Her Majesty's Government that many of them are already turning into slums. The most reverend Primate referred to slums, but I am afraid that we have not been able to tackle them a great deal. That is a problem which faces any Government, and that Government, whatever its colour, is entitled to the support of the nation in endeavouring to solve one of the greatest problems of our time.
I do not want to talk too much about the past. I wish the noble Lord, Lord Brand, were here to speak about cheap money. I remember the City of Sheffield having to borrow money at 6 per cent, in order to build houses during the First World War. No wonder it was a ghastly failure. To-day, the Government have a flying start compared with the Labour Government in July, 1945. Then we were literally like the Children of Israel. We had the straw, I agree, but the brick kilns had only a skeleton staff to keep them going, and they had to be started up again. In addition, we had to get timber in the most difficult circumstances. The noble Lord and the Government have no excuses. They have plenty of soft timber, and there is plenty of cement to build these untraditional houses. They are good to live in, and I should not mind living in one myself.
No political Party can afford to be complacent. I think I heard Lord Woolton say that the Government had pondered over the problem of 300,000 houses. I am sorry that he is not here, because I seem to remember that the target of

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300,000 houses was inspired by the bracing air of Blackpool. I think a poltergeist had got into the Winter Gardens, and a mischievous sprite had inspired a man—-I hope he came from the North, because he did a good turn—to get up and say, "We want 300,000 houses," and the whole of that vast audience of Conservative delegates took up the cry. The lady in the Chair did not know what to do. The honourable Member for Melton also did not know what to do. He was the Chairman, but he handed over to the Vice-Chairman. Lord Woolton saved the situation, and I pay my weed of praise to him. I can see him now, in my mind, walking to the edge of the platform as the whole of that mighty mass of delegates were in rebellion. It looked almost as if it were a Labour Party Conference. Lord Wootton said, "This is magnificent!", and saved the situation. Soon after, he plastered the hoardings throughout Great Britain with huge posters saying, "There are going to be 300,000 houses." No wonder the billposters look upon him as the billposters' friend. All the while, the man who refused to allow anybody to write the programme of the Conservative Party and who had rebuked both Mr. Butler and Mr. David Eccles for trying; their hands at it, was in seclusion in the Jockey Club at Newmarket. But he had to accept the facts when he came to Blackpool on the Saturday, and that is the reason why we have the slogan from the Party opposite, "We are going to build 300,000 by a mass meeting production"—because it seems to me that that is what it amounts to. I think we are entitled to get a little bit of our own back on occasions in a nice. Christian sort of way.
The new Minister, the right honourable Mr. Macmillan, has to implement the figure, or try to implement it, and if he tries very hard he will find that many people of good will are ready to support him. I have followed Mr. Macmillan ever since he entered Parliament in 1924. I remember him when he was a member of the Y M.C.A. group. The hard-faced people in another place did not like him because they did not know whether to call him a member of the Young. Men's Christian Association or a member of the Young Men's Conservative Association. I have had a great admiration for him ever since. I hope that he will be able to produce houses and not merely rabbit
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hutches. I also agree, with him that we should have more elasticity, which I believe he mentioned in a speech last week. If a small builder with a small plot of land can build a block of four houses, let him do so. There should also be more flexibility, without too many restrictions, so that people can get on with the job of building what I hope will be decent houses. In talking about satellite towns Mr. Macmillan said yesterday that if they could not move along they would have to hop along. If we have to call the Minister "Hop along Harold," it will not be in terms of disrespect. We shall be hoping that he will be able to implement the pledge and provide what this country must have—houses—and we can assure the Minister that he is banking on a very large credit of good will if he will provide them.
6.40 p.m.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, at this late hour I do not feel able to try to emulate Lord Calverley's flights of rhetoric, but I very much like the conclusion of his speech. I am bound to say that the constructive suggestions coming from the Benches opposite this afternoon have been remarkably few. I had hoped that we should hear some suggestions of how the present Minister's plans could be improved, how more houses than his figure could be built; but we have heard nothing. We have been told that we cannot build 300,000 houses. There seems to me, at any rate, to be no wish from the Benches opposite that more than 300,000 houses should be built, and I think that is lamentable. I believe that the Minister's use of all possible agencies for building houses must be an improvement on the late Government's policy of using nothing but local authorities. Local authorities—I meet them every day of the week—are admirable people, but they have many other things to do besides building. They have a whole mass of statutory duties that absorb a large part of their daily work. They cannot go "all out" on housing because they have their other Acts of Parliament and other duties to carry out. Therefore, to restrict the building of houses merely to the local authorities means to say that you are fighting with one hand tied behind your back.
I am quite certain that if the Government use the housing associations and the building societies—and there are

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4,000,000 members of the building societies; I repeat, 4,000,000—a very large number of additional houses can be built. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, who rather advocated that people should not save and try to buy a house of their own.
LORD KENSWOOD: All I said was that at this present moment it is inopportune for them to do so.
LORD HYLTON: I am obliged to the noble Lord. I would not agree on that point, however, for this reason: that all Parties in the State advocate saving, and what better object can there possibly be? I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said this afternoon that he advocated one man owning one house. Why should the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, say that it is a bad time to save? All the political Parties advocate saving.
LORD KENSWOOD: I am so sorry to have to interrupt again. I think the noble Lord has misunderstood what I said. I gave the reasons why I feel that at the present moment there is a great danger in encouraging people or making it possible for people to buy their own houses. My main reason was that in order to get out of their present misery, the awful misery about which we are all agreed—for instance, overcrowding and living in insanitary houses—people will often be prepared to embark unwisely on house-buying by instalments, thus making themselves less efficient and causing the country as a whole to suffer.
LORD HYLTON: Of course, if you never risk anything you never gain anything. If you never do anything because you may make a loss, surely that is a pessimistic attitude. I do not wish to labour the point. I think there is a good deal to be thought about in it.
I want briefly now to refer to the question of the building which has taken place in the past by Government Departments. It is this building which has detracted from the total amount of labour and materials available for housing—there is no doubt about that. There is only one pool of labour and materials, and the more that is taken out for extra building, for Government building, the less will remain for houses. To the minds of many of us, the use of labour and materials for other pur-
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poses has been extravagant. I want to cite only one case—that is, the Home Office. The Home Office have had designs, and very good they are, for new police stations and new magistrates courthouses. They cost over £100,000 apiece. Quite recently, in my own county the Home Office—I will not say insisted, because a Government Department cannot insist, but certainly they suggested, that if this court and police station were not built in my own county, it would be built in another county. That was only a suggestion, but it has to be taken for what it is worth. The result, however, is that this building is now going up and, in consequence, there is that much the less labour for building houses. Your Lordships will agree with me that at the present time that is all wrong. We cannot afford, when we want houses so badly, to waste—or perhaps I should say expend—our materials and our labour on that sort of refinement.
The Ministry of Education, in their building regulations, also have a very high standard. We all agree that high standards are good, but their high standards are based on the development of schools in urban areas. They insisted that these standards be carried out exactly the same for schools built in the country as for schools built in the most congested part of the most congested city in the Midlands, or in any other part of the country. That again is wrong. Surrounded, as those country schools are, with fresh air, there is nothing like the same need for corridors and passages and things of that sort. I hope that the Minister of Housing will in this case confer with his colleagues in other Departments which control building—that is to say, principally, the Ministry of Works—to see whether they cannot agree during this period to hold their hands and so make more labour and materials available for building houses.
My noble friend Lord Gage, who I see has left the House, referred to immigration into the county of Sussex. It is the immigration problem in parts of the country that leads to the increase on the waiting lists at the present time. My own county has built 10,000 houses since the war, which I think is the greatest number in the South-West of England, according to population, except for the county of Gloucester. We now find that, through immigration and for other reasons, we

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shall probably have to build 20,000 more houses. So we have gone only one-third of the way in the last six years—and that does not take into account sub-standard houses that will have to be replaced when building conditions become easier. And those houses will have to be considered, in addition to the 10,000 new houses already built. So many noble Lords have already referred to the question of houses tumbling down for need of repair that I do not wish to press that point. It is evident to anybody who lives in the country that many houses are now being lost because at the existing standard of rent they are unable to bear the burden of repair.
I should like finally to refer to the point that, for the provision of housing by private enterprise, many new building sites will be required, building sites not bought by the local authority but to be acquired either by a builder or by the individual with a licence. The effect of the development charge is a very great deterrent. I am glad to see in his place the noble Lord who initiated this Motion, because he knows as well as I do the effect of the development charge in deterring land coming into the market: it is very grave. And now that dead-ripe and semi-ripe land is becoming exhausted, owing to building having taken place on it, there remains only the land which will be subject to the full development charge.
I have looked up the figures in the last three Annual Reports of the Central Land Board, and I find that the average development charge on what is called a dwellinghouse has varied in those three years between £150 and £120 per house. That obviously is a very heavy tax, and it makes the price the individual has to pay for the individual site a very heavy one, because he has to pay the existing use value for the land and then the development charge. Even if he pays £5, £10 or £15 for the existing use value of the land you then have to add the development charge, and what you find is that for quite a small plot he is paying £150, £160 or even £170. If you reduce that to pounds per acre you will find he is paying an astronomical figure for one acre of land. Of course he will not buy an acre; he will buy only a quarter. The late Minister, I see, takes the point that, instead of land becoming
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cheaper, which we were given to understand would he the result of the 1947 Act, it has become much more expensive.
I cite one case because I think it is apposite. A quarter of an acre in the countryside was sold for £50 for a housing site. The development charge imposed by the Central Land Board for one house was £150, making a total of £200 for one quarter of an acre. If three other houses were built, the price of that land would have been £800 an acre, which in the country is a fantastic charge. Any noble Lords who have to deal with these matters know that £800 an acre for land in the country on which to build a house is a usurious charge. In the old days, £200, or perhaps £150, was a reasonable amount to pay for an acre of building land in the country. The figure has now risen to perhaps as much as £800. I do hope that very shortly the Government will be able to produce an improvement in the system of assessing the development charge, even if they use unable to abolish it completely. I have occupied, I am afraid, too much of your Lordships' time, but we all wish the Minister well and I am quite convinced that if all the possible agencies work together it will not be impossible to reach the Minister's target for housing.
6.55 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I am very reluctant indeed, after so many speakers have tried your Lordships' patience, to take up more of your Lordships' time, but because one particular aspect of to-day's debate has not yet been touched upon I thought that perhaps you would care to hear what is the position in Scotland and in Glasgow particularly, of whose Town Council I happen to be still a member. Therefore, trying to confine my remarks as much as I can, I had better say that, first, I shall try to give an indication of the problem in Glasgow and partly in Scotland; secondly I shall try to say a word or two about the demonstration of protest to which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, referred, and finally I shall try and say a word about subsidies which are, I think, at the moment matters under discussion between the finance officers of Scotland and the Scottish Home Department.
Without indulging in any emotional rhetoric, I will bluntly state this: that as late as 1950, 50 per cent. of Glasgow's houses were of one or two apartments,

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many of them without individual sanitary conveniences; that as late as 1944 the standard of accommodation in Scotland was lower than that in England; and that when the Royal Commission, which reported in 1917, tried to discover the number of houses needed for Scotland they reported that on the basis of three persons per room, the number of houses needed in Scotland would be 121,500, but that if the English standard of two persons per room were adopted the number required would be 236,000. It seems to me unfair that that lower standard should have been adopted and accepted officially in England. In 1925 more than 50 per cent. of the houses built in that year were houses of two apartments, and the senior deputy officer of health for Glasgow tells me that those low housing standards compelled the utilisation of the living room as the bathroom. Until 1944, the occupancy standard for new houses still necessitated that practice. On that basis, since infants were not included at all and children under ten were reckoned as half an adult, it was possible in an extreme case to house some eleven human beings in a two-roomed house. This practice, of course, has now ceased. The living-room is now excluded and the standard is two persons per bedroom per house.
Further, in Glasgow alone there are to-day 40,000 families without a house of their own, and that position must of necessity grow worse because the rate of increase in families is greater than the rate of increase in the population. Although some 75,000 houses have been built in Glasgow since 1919, there are still on the waiting list over 100,000 applicants, some of whose names have appeared on that list for more than twenty years. That, I think, is very much worse even than in Leeds, to which my noble friend Lord Milner referred and upon whose maiden speech I should very much like to offer my congratulations. There are 400 properties officially designated as dangerous in which people are still living. These are exclusive of the dwellings which are described as unfit for human habitation, and they have no bearing on the initial number of houses which are overcrowded. It is not surprising, therefore, that the tenements in Glasgow collapse—as happened very recently, when one tenement containing eighteen families collapsed and some
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seventy-four human beings were rendered completely homeless. That tenement collapse was not due to the gales which we later suffered; it was just one of the collapses of which we have had so many in Glasgow. Considering such conditions, is it surprising that the incidence of tuberculosis is the highest in the country, taking the average over the last five years? The infant mortality rate in Glasgow is the highest in the country.
But, disturbing and depressing as are these facts, I confess that they do not move me as much as did a recent personal experience of my own. At the pressing request of an occupant of a tenement in a ward of which I happen to be a representative, my two fellow representatives and I went to visit that tenement. I will not describe it in detail. The walls were not in plumb; the windows which were closed could not be opened and other windows could not be shut. It was a terribly dilapidated tenement. But it was a very great shock to me to see affixed on each door and the landing of the tenements metal discs containing figures. In one case—I have the figures here—the figure was 1,300, and underneath "3 adults." I had heard of ticketed houses, but I thought that they were a relic of the dim past. It seemed incredible that in this mid-twentieth century there should still be living in these places people whose houses were ticketed in that way. Thirteen hundred cubic feet of air is supposed to be the allocation for three adults. When one has seen inside these so-called dwellings, as I have, one wonders how anyone could live in them and remain healthy.
Why are these conditions tolerated? Why have they been tolerated? I can only answer that, so far as Scotsmen are concerned, they have, for far too many generations, been reared in the mental atmosphere of the but and ben—that is, the two-roomed house in which one of the rooms serves for living, dining, washing and other purposes and the other is kept for ceremonial occasions, and, in the country, for housing the occupant's cows and sheep and other agricultural possessions. We have gone beyond that, and the outlook to-day is changed. But if I think of Glasgow alone and ask what the solution is, I am almost bound to say that the problem is insoluble. The problem is insoluble for this reason.

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Recently, when the Corporation were considering submitting their planning scheme to the Department of Health in Scotland, our city architect explained that assuming, first, that the population remained stationary, secondly, that the acreage of the city would not alter, and, thirdly, that the density of building remained the same, the number of additional houses necessary to rehouse Glasgow would be in the region of 200,000; but that, taking the land available and the land already purchased, there was room for at most only 45,000 houses. How it is possible to fit in another 500,000 population into that space, I do not know. Local action cannot de it, and the question is whether the Government can do anything to relieve that situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, referred to the demonstration of protest. I have already explained what happened on a certain Thursday recently in connection with a letter which the head of the Department of Health sent to the Corporation. I should like now to refer to what prompted that demonstration. I think it is important to consider what the possible effect of the action taken by the Secretary of State in prompting the sale of these houses might be. I am not concerned at the moment with the question of whether letting houses or selling houses is the better way. I am concerned purely with this one scheme of 622 houses, which were originally intended to be built for letting—that is the important point: the houses were intended originally to be built for letting. After some were completed, the Housing Committee of Glasgow decided that they would sell. Immediately, there was a spontaneous outburst on the part of the people of Glasgow. When the matter was raised in another place, a Member interjected to ask whether the demonstration was organised or not, and if so who organised it. I think it is better to answer quite definitely that of course it was organised but the significance of the demonstration lies not in the fact that it was organised but in the fact that this was a spontaneous reaction by two or three bodies—first, the local Labour Party, secondly, the trade union workers, and, thirdly, that embarrassing group of camp followers who always try to make capital out of a public grievance. But it was a spontaneous reaction; and some
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3,000 people on that damp Thursday afternoon marched round George Square in Glasgow protesting against the decision of the majority party in the Glasgow Corporation to sell these houses.
The Secretary of State has had this matter before him. I suggest that he has not been well advised in agreeing to the sale of those houses, and that his attempt to modify the conditions originally laid down by the Corporation, however well meaning, did not at all meet the situation. The Labour Party members of the Corporation feel that a trust has been betrayed, and there is no question that the workers on that scheme feel that they have been betrayed. However unreasonable it may be on the part of the general public, they feel that, in spite of the fact that there are 100,000 applications for houses and that there is no chance of these 622 houses satisfying the demand, they have been deprived of an opportunity of getting a house.
My Lords, the undertaking to buy these houses is one which ought to give considerable anxiety to those who contemplate doing so. In my view, although these houses are good value, as prices go to-day, one expects that they are at their peak figure, and that I hose who buy them will, in the best of circumstances, have to commit themselves for a period of thirty years to a considerable annual or semiannual outlay, to an initial sum which a great many people might pay at great inconvenience to themselves, and, to the thousand-and-one cots of maintenance involved. And one wonders whether, as the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, indicated, a great mans thousand honest people may not, in their desperation, undertake obligations covering this long period which they will never be able to fulfil. Therefore, I think it would have been very much wiser, on the one hand, to allay a feeling of considerable indignation and, on the other, to avoid the possibility of causing ultimate hardship to people who are anxious to obtain houses, if the Secretary of State had said that in this particular instance he would prefer not to allow the houses to be sold, but that if at any other time it was desired to build houses for sale—there is no reason why that should not be done—the council should go ahead and build them. But do not give the people of Glasgow the feeling that they have been deprived by the sale of these houses.

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Finally, my Lords, I should like to say a word about subsidies. As the noble Earl, Lord Home, will know, there have been discussions on this question, and I have wondered why, in the Press, there seems to be so widespread a feeling that the arrangements made have satisfied the situation. Personally, I do not think they have. Consider the purpose of the review of subsidies. Since local authorities have found the burden upon them too great, and since it is an accepted principle that the Government will share a proportion of that burden, one would have expected the Government, now reviewing the subsidies—indeed, having pushed forward the period of review—to relieve local authorities of this additional burden. What, in fact, has happened? It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place indicated that the additional charge of interest would be taken into consideration when reviewing the question of subsidies. That has been done, but he has done nothing more. Instead of relieving the authorities, he has simply, as it were, said that the amount of additional interest that will fall to be paid is so many pounds, and that the subsidy will be adjusted in order to meet that extra so many pounds; and there the bargain is finished. I regard that as unsatisfactory.
What, in fact, was supposed to be the position is this. It was understood that the Government would share the burden in the proportion of 3⅓ to 1. Before the war I think it was 2½ to 1; I do not know. Now I understand that the Government say "We can have only a 3 to 1 ratio"—that is, the Government will share three parts of the additional burden, leaving the local authority one part. However, when they come down to negotiate the actual figures, we find that the Government officials insist on a certain figure as the cost of the house, a figure which the finance officers equally insist is an impossible one—first, because it takes the tender price, and secondly, because it takes the tender price at a time when it was obviously below the price ruling to-day. One example is that during the period of negotiation the extra wages that had to be paid to workers were, I think, 1½d. per hour, in the case of two sets of workers, or perhaps it was 3d. on two occasions to the same set of
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Workers—I am not quite sure. That has been ignored. The Government have deducted for what they call low-cost houses, an amount which is in excess of what the finance officers say should be the charge. They have ignored the fact that local authorities must provide such things as fireplaces, washing boilers, and necessities of that kind. The Government officials say that they cannot be allowed in these low-cost houses. They have said that, owing to the increased supply of timber, a certain number of houses can now be built more cheaply by the use of timber, so saving steel. In calculating the saving to be made, they have taken £30 when it should have been £15.
Generally, the outcome is this: that whereas the extra amount of interest on a house would be £19 6s. 9d., the increase in subsidy compared with the increase in interest is only £19 5s., so that the local authorities are worse off to the extent of 1s. 9d. per house per annum after the so-called adjustment of the subsidy. When you remember that over the last five years in Scotland deficits have been incurred amounting to £5,500,000, in addition to the annual burdens which the local authorities would bear, your Lordships will agree, I hope, that the subsidies have not recouped local authorities for their losses. I should very much like to see the Government improve the figure if they can, because at present it works out at only 1.1 to 1, instead of the 3⅓ to 1 or, as the Government now say, the 3–1 ratio that they had before. My Lords, that is all I wish to say at this late hour.
7.19 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, gave me no notice that he was going to raise this question to-day, so he will forgive me if I make only the briefest reference to his speech. However, I feel that I must say something—
LORD GREENHILL: It was purely an oversight on my part, if I may say so.
THE EARL OF HOME: Thank you. The noble Lord began his speech by referring us to the condition of houses in Scotland, in the city of Glasgow in particular, as compared with those in England. Of course, as long as he and I can remember, housing conditions have been worse in Scotland than in

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England, and Glasgow has always been a very bad spot. I would recall to him that before the war we had got to the stage when we were making successful inroads into the slums in Glasgow. We were doing a lot of slum clearance, but, of course, in the war years that was brought to an end. Between 1945 and June of last year, 15,723 permanent houses were built in Glasgow by the Corporation. That is far short of the need, but all the figures which the noble Lord has given this afternoon seem to me to reinforce the need to better the performance of the Socialist Government in the last six years, and to reinforce the need to stick to and, if conceivably possible, achieve the target of 300,000 houses which has figured in our discussions. The noble Lord has surely taken, and I think that his Party have taken, a defeatist attitude this afternoon. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that we have heard from them very few constructive suggestions as to how we might build more houses. The noble Lord has said, with regard to Glasgow, that he considers the problem there to be insoluble. Her Majesty's Government will not and do not admit that. He complains that it is hardly possible to build more houses in Glasgow, but let me remind him that there is the new town of East Kilbride which should absorb a good many Glasgow citizens. Shortage of land is no obstacle to new building.
The only other question with which I want to deal is the question of the Glasgow Corporation selling 600 houses on what is known as the Merrilee Estate. That proposal, of course, as the noble Lord will admit, is perfectly within the powers and the rights of the Corporation, but certain objections were made by reasonable people, and the Secretary of State took the greatest care to consider those objections. The fear has been expressed in this debate that some people might "jump the queue" as the result of the arrangement which has been made. As the noble Lord himself put it, some people might be deprived of houses who would have a reasonable expectation of getting them. In order that your Lordships may judge whether or not the conditions are fair, let me tell you what the Secretary of State laid down to the Glasgow Corporation in respect of the
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selling of these houses. The first condition is that sales should be made to existing tenants. For every house that is sold to an existing tenant a vacancy is created for people or the Corporation's waiting list. The second condition is that the houses should be sold only to people on the Corporation's waiting list who would normally get a house within the next year. Further it was laid down that they should be sold only to people in bad health who, again, would normally be given houses by the Corporation. Those are the limitations linden which these houses may be sold. Surely they are eminently reasonable conditions to lay down, and they have been accepted by the Corporation. Of course, it is impossible to restrain people whose agitation is designed for political, ends, but I suggest most strongly that these conditions laid down by the Secretary of State, and accepted by the Corporation, are reasonable in these particular cases, and will mean that no one who might expect to get a house will be unjustly deprived of one.
The last point which the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, raised was one about subsidies. I cannot say a word about that, and I am not very sure that the noble Lord ought to have done. So far as I know, this muter is still under consideration and confidential. I think that the less anyone says on the subject to-day the better. I conclude this short intervention by saying that I hope the noble Lord will forgive me if I have not been able to take more trouble about my reply, but, as I have said, I did not know that he intended to raise this particular matter of housing in Glasgow.
LORD GREENHILL: I hope there is no suggestion that there has been any breach of confidence on my part. I was given documents without any sort of intimation that they were confidential, otherwise I should not have referred to their contents.
THE EARL OF HOME: I would not for a moment suggest that the noble Lord has said anything that should not have been said, but these matters have been under discussion until a very recent date and I should not like to add or say anything, in case I divulged any matter which should not be divulged.
7.26 p.m.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, I should like to join with other noble Lords who have participated in this debate in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on initiating so interesting a matter for discussion in your Lordships' House. I wish to submit a few observations on the production engineering aspect of house construction. It is essential that this specialised branch of engineering be understood. Once its considerable potential is measured, then the application of its techniques will bring great advantage, with the result that more houses will be built for the same man-power and at less cost. As your Lordships will remember, the Industrial Revolution which transformed so many of our industries left the building industry almost unchanged. This state of affairs in Britain is not unique; it is to be found in other countries, too. The first sign of a welcome change in the building world comes from the United States of America. It was made evident in a very interesting paper delivered at the Building Research Congress, held in London last September, by Mr. Christenson of the Federal Housing Administration of the United States of America. He stated that science and engineering knowledge were to be brought in in the most complete fashion and applied in practice. In other words—there is to be a production engineering approach for the United States housing programme. It is really not to our credit that we are becoming so accustomed to the United States making many of these important technological advances. We can, I am sure, and I suggest that we should, do more.
It is well that we should remember that the building and civil engineering industry employs some 1,500,000 people, with a further 400,000 in the building materials and components industries. This is some 8 per cent. or 9 per cent. of the working population, and is more than there are in agriculture and about equal to those in the engineering, shipbuilding and electrical groups of industries. The capital invested is large, since buildings and construction work generally account for some 60 per cent. of the total gross fixed investments. This compares with 50 per cent. in the United States of America. The figure for Sweden is about the same as that for
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Great Britain—about 60 per cent. What is happening with these vast resources in action? The Girdwood Committee estimated in 1950 that the man-hours needed to build a given type of house in 1949 were 26 per cent. above the 1938–39 level. This was an improvement on 1947, but it represented a 20 per cent. drop in productivity compared to pre-war days.
In industry, as your Lordships know, productivity has risen appreciably since 1938. The cost of a house, expressed as a fraction of the national income, is nearly one-fifth more than it was in 1938. There is a close relationship between productivity and the use of machinery. The average American used three and a half times more electrical power than his British counterpart—one of the reasons for higher American productivity. As your Lordships are aware, we increased the available horse-power for agriculture three times in eight years. We must have an increase of the same rate, but much more rapidly, in the building industry.
I have said enough to show the tremendous importance—no, the vital need—of our building industry applying, and without delay, all that is to be learned from science and engineering; in other words, production engineering technique. It is not sense, in these days of mechanisation, when two small semidetached houses have to be built, that much of the material is moved more than once and some 1,200 tons of material are moved on the site by hand. Nothing is so expensive as "cheap unskilled labour." The small building firms—and there are more of these than there are bricklayers—will have to be helped, like the small farmers who now can hire equipment as they require it. In this matter of the more efficient use of man-hours and materials in building, a remarkable work has been done on research and development by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. The Permanent Secretary of that Department, Sir Ben Lockspeiser, a man of outstanding ability, with the courage of conviction born of wide experience, delivered the closing address, entitled "Research and the Building Industry," at the Building Research Congress in September, to which I have already

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referred. I suggest that this paper should be considered a directive to the industry, and I beg to suggest to the noble Lord who will reply for Her Majesty's Government that this paper be given close consideration and a wide circulation. It richly merits it.
7.34 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, at the end of a long debate I am sure your Lordships will wish me to keep you for only a short time. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Silk in, for initiating this important debate, because it is nearly two years since we had a debate on housing in this House and because, as many noble Lords have said before me, this problem is, after the defence of the country, the most important, and we have to tackle it. Listening to many of the speeches from the other side, I thought, like the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, that they struck a defeatist attitude. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, is not in his place, and I do not like to play Party politics, but I should like to quote a significant paragraph front Command Paper 6794, the Second Interim Report on New Towns, issued in April, 1946. The Committee which made this Report was under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Reith. On page 12 the Report says:
"The Government's housing programme contemplates the building of 4,000,000 houses by local authorities and private enterprise in a period of from ten to twelve years from the end of the war. This involves expanding the building industry to a personnel of about 1,250,000 by the fourth year and the civil engineering industry in proportion. Under this programme building is expected to work up to a peak production of between 400,000 and 500,000 houses a year six years to eight years from the middle of 1949, in addition to repair and other building work in that period."
Presumably, the late Government accepted that Report, because there it is on record. I thought noble Lords opposite adopted an extremely defeatist attitude this afternoon in condemning us for putting forward a programme of 300,000 houses a year.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, is the noble Lord suggesting that because a Government causes a Report to be printed they thereby accept it? Because that is a very interesting doctrine.
LORD WOLVERTON: The first words I quoted were:
"The Government's housing programme contemplates…"
I imagine that if they "contemplated" such a programme, then that was the Government's idea. I leave it at that. I do not wish to pursue the subject, but I thought I should like to answer that attitude.
The only point I want to make is on building costs, which have gone up very much in the last few years. I welcome the statement by my right honourable friend the Minister of Local Government and Housing, in a speech at Nottingham, that local authorities could give block licences to builders to build in blocks. I should like to give the facts about two experimental houses which were built last summer at Ipswich. The final cost of these houses, which were put up as an experiment by the Eastern Building Federation, was £1,106 per house, or 26s. 11d. per cubic foot. They are three-bedroom houses of 820 cubic feet. On top of that has to be added the road charges, development charge, cost of the land, architect's fees, legal fees and so on. I should think it is not unfair to add for these another £435, making the total cost in the neighbourhood of £1,541. Thus, to buy one of these houses over a period of twenty years, borrowing 90 per cent. from a building society and allowing £10 for repairs and £15 for local rates, would cost £2 9s. per week. Although that is a large sum compared with pre-war prices, it is within the limits of a large number of people. I do not say it is within the limits of the lowest paid, but I hope that these prices will be brought down so that the lowest income group can afford to buy their own houses. If that can be done with two houses, and if the Government are going to allow within the pet milted limit a certain amount of block huddling by private builders, I submit that we shall be able to bring the prices down, as was done so successfully between the two wars, when houses were being sold at £450.
In conclusion, I should like to say a word about London. Glasgow has been mentioned to-day, but I think that London has nearly as big a problem. It is estimated that on the housing lists of the L.C.C. and the twenty-eight Metropolitan Boroughs, there are 320,000

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names. Some 61,672 houses and flats have been built since the end of the war. I do not say that that is not a big contribution, but we must make a much bigger one in the next few years. Therefore, I welcome the Minister's new statement. I believe it gives a breath of fresh air which is most welcome to people interested in housing, and I wish him the best of luck. I thing it will be possible to do something a good deal better than has been done in the past, particularly if we are more careful with other types of building, as we must be, because we have spent something like £30,000,000 in the last five years in Government building alone. I believe the Minister said in another place that that would provide houses for 100,000 people, or 25,000 families. With those few words, I should like to wish the Government success in their new policy.
7.41 p.m.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, at this exceptionally late hour I do not think your Lordships would wish me to do other than try and deal, as briefly and expeditiously as possible, with what has been a very long debate. I feel, however, that it has been a valuable one. So far as the Government are concerned, we recognise that this is a great national problem and a very difficult one. All the help, advice and constructive criticism we can get we shall certainly welcome. Before I go further, I should like to say a word of appreciation of the two maiden speeches made this afternoon by the noble Lords, Lord Wise and Lord Milner of Leeds. I hope that we shall hear them often again.
A number of points have been put forward, and a number of criticisms have been made of the Government, which is only natural. Before I deal with our differences, I should like to say a few words on something on which we can all be satisfied—namely, that our object of procuring a great many more houses is unanimous. There were some doubts as to the practicability of what we want to do, and some criticism of the methods which we propose to adopt. But we are agreed on the one point, that we must have more houses. As I said, some doubts were expressed as to the practicability of what we propose to do. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested that we had made some rather flamboyant promises at the Election; and I think
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that suggestion was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Wise. I do not think I need say more about that matter than has been said by my noble friend Lord Llewellin. I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who was a housing expert, and I believe a great expert on non-traditional houses, would know enough to appreciate that those who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones. I will not weary your Lordships to-night by repeating a little dossier of promises made in 1945—I will leave that alone.
Let me say that we believe this target to be possible; we believe that it is essential, and we are going to do our utmost to achieve it. It is true that we shall not build 300,000 houses this year. I know of no production drive in the world that ever produced results in the very first year. While we recognise the formidable nature of our task, we believe that if we approach it in a spirit of determination and in a spirit of enthusiasm, and if—which is equally important—we can transmit that determination and enthusiasm to the people whose help is so essential to us, we can succeed. I felt, as I listened to the debate, that some noble Lords opposite thought we had made radical changes in our approach to housing. Nothing is further from the fact. The basic skeleton organisation of the whole housing drive still depends on the co-operation between the central Government, on the one hand, and the local authorities and the building industry, on the other. That is absolutely unchanged. The task of the Government is to provide the over-all plan, the finance, the land, and an adequate and even flow of labour and materials. But, as has been said, we cannot build the houses. The houses have got to be built by the local authorities, with the local builders, because they are the only people who know what is needed locally; and equally, when the houses are allotted, it is clear that the local authorities must be the people to allot them. Who in Whitehall can say who should have a claim on a certain house? Only the local authority can do that.
I should like to pay a tribute to the local authorities for what they have done. It has not been an easy or a pleasant job for them to deal with the urgent and tragic human needs with which they have had to deal for the last six years.

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Although they may not have succeeded in every instance, I believe that on the whole they have responded magnificently to the heavy burden that has been imposed upon them. In my view, they deserve not only our confidence for what they have done, but also all the encouragement and help we can give them. We felt that the best way to show our confidence in them was to give them a greater measure of freedom to run their own affairs. That is why we have allowed them to decide, within certain limits, how they should use the allocations that have been given to them. We think that change is going to have three advantages. We believe that it will attract back the small house builder who is capable of building a few houses a year—reference has already been made to that aspect by several noble Lords this afternoon. We also feel that it will introduce a competitive element of both design and price, which I am sure is essential. In the long run, the competitive house will be the cheaper house. The noble Lord, Lord Wise, regretted that the prices of houses were so high: this is one way, we believe, of trying to get them down. As has been said, we also intend to give builders a chance to build block terraces, which in its turn should do something to reduce prices. It means that the local authority will be set against the private builder in competition, and we hope that this will produce cheaper prices. We believe that it will also satisfy a genuine desire for people to own their own homes.
The criticisms that have been made about "jumping the queue," and about standards, have been effectively answered by my noble friend Lord Woolton, and I do not think there is a great deal more that I need say on that subject. The noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, said that it was bad to encourage house ownership at the present moment, but I rather felt that all his arguments would apply to encouraging house ownership at any time. He said that a man had to be prudent; that he had to consider what he was "letting himself in for." That does not apply more to-day than at any other time. In particular, I really cannot accept that as a valid argument against the principle of house ownership. On the other hand—one is always between two fires—the noble Lord, Lord Meston, who I am sorry to see is not here now, said that we were not doing nearly enough, and that we ought to let the
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private builder build as much as he wanted without any restriction of any kind. I always feel that when one is criticised, on the one hand, for doing too much and, on the other, for doing too little, one is pretty nearly right. Certainly that is the position we are in to-day.
The noble Lord, Lord Milner, suggested that local authorities ought to be encouraged to give greater incentives to contractors building council houses. I was not quite clear what he meant by that, but I would say this. I do not think that greater incentives are any good unless there is greater production. In the past there has been no possibility of greater production because there was a fixed target. But to-day I believe that we can have greater incentives, and I should like to say another word about this in a moment. Of course incentives and production must always go together. Let me, first of all, say a word about incentives to local authorities themselves. As I have said, there are two things we want to give them. The first is more freedom, because we believe that they are responsible bodies; secondly, we want to give them greater encouragement. Unless they can be given some, incentive, I do not see that they have a great deal of encouragement to build more houses. They have had a fixed target in the past, and have been allowed to build only a fixed number of houses a year. In many cases that must have acted as a disincentive. Perhaps the local authority was rather reluctant to use up its year's allocation too soon and lose its contractors because they had no more work. The contractors felt that it was no good expanding their organisation if there was no prospect of further contracts and thereby working themselves out of a job. We hope that in the future there will be no such limitation. The programme in future will be an expanding programme, and we hope that that will give incentive to the local authorities.
May I next say a word or two on the question of maintenance of existing houses, about which a number of noble Lords spoke, I thought with considerable effect, this afternoon? Of course, the Government realise that, whilst we should make every effort to speed up the building of new houses, we have to repair and maintain the existing dwellings which are soundly constructed and which, given

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the opportunity, would have another useful term of life of, perhaps, thirty years or more. The noble Viscount, Lord Portman, said something on that matter, as did the noble Viscount, Lord Gage. There has been a complaint that the allocation of materials and labour for this purpose is inadequate. In the present difficult situation it is very hard for us to allocate a great deal more labour and materials to maintenance work. Rearmament has to be considered and, at the same time, there is the housing drive. All I can say on the point of maintenance of existing houses is this. The Government are very sympathetic to the problem, and we can promise that there will be not less resources available in the future than in the past and, furthermore, that regional officers will be prepared to consider any schemes which are put up to them, particularly schemes for conversion where additional allocation might be justified because greater living accommodation would thereby be provided. I cannot go further than that at the present moment, but I hope that that may go some way to satisfying the noble Lords, if not with regard to the practical steps, at any rate with regard to the general attitude of Her Majesty's Government.
Various noble Lords were concerned about the provision of land—clearly that is a vital consideration, because without land no houses are possible—and particularly about the implications of the Town and Country Planning Act in stopping building land coming forward for development because of the incidence of development charge. The first thing I would say is that of course the development charge does not apply to local authorities, nor does it apply to those who have either dead-ripe or near-ripe land. In any case, at the present moment there is a considerable amount of dead-ripe and near-ripe land still available for building.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I think he will find that development charge is assessed on local authorities.
LORD LLOYD: I could enter into discussion on this particular point with the noble Lord, but the Town and Country Planning Act is an extremely complicated affair, and I think your Lordships might well be here until half past eight if I
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embarked on an argument of that point at the moment. May I say that there is a considerable amount of ripe and near-ripe land which is still available for building and, therefore, we are not concerned immediately with the problem of a shortage of land? We recognise that such a shortage might arise because of the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act, and the Government are considering whether parts of the Act relating to compensation, to depreciation of land values and to development charges should be modified or altered. It is a very complicated subject and there is no easy solution. Even if the Government were to decide to introduce amending legislation, I do not think there is any prospect whatsoever of its being introduced in this Session.
I now come to the question of materials. Various noble Lords expressed concern on this point, and asked us what we were doing to boost the supply of materials. Of course the position has always been difficult. It was difficult in 1945, and it has been difficult ever since. Except for steel, in some respects it is easier to-day than it has been for some time, but that does not mean to say that the situation is as yet satisfactory. All I can say is that Her Majesty's Government are doing everything in their power to increase the production of materials. For example, we are now building houses (they were started by the late Government) in the brickfields, in order to try to increase the production of bricks. We are doing everything to encourage production of materials, and not only the production of materials but the flow of materials to the building sites, which is absolutely essential if greater production is to take place. The noble Lord, Lord Milner, asked me how these new production boards differed from the previous arrangements. These new production boards will supplement the existing machinery, and they will bring into existence a body in which all the main interests are represented and which can give its whole attention to the problem of solving the flow of production—breaking down bottlenecks and getting the materials more quickly from the site of production to the job. Local authorities will not be represented on the boards, for the simple reason that it is desired, in order that the boards shall be fully

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efficient, to keep them as small as is reasonably possible.
Let me turn now to the question of economy. Of course, whilst we will do everything we can to increase production, in our present situation it is no good deluding ourselves into thinking that we can achieve our aim unless some economy is made, especially with the demands of rearmament and with the need for keeping up our export trade. I was very interested in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, and thee suggestions that he made. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Minister will read with interest what he said, and I dare say that he may take some further action about it. I also noted the remark s of my noble friend Lord Llewellin about economy in the building of such items as schools. Personally, I agree with him that economy is needed in every kind of field, and that is a course which the Government are endeavouring to pursue. So far as new houses are concerned, of course, the building of smaller houses is one of the greatest methods of achieving that. Equally, the Government are interested in developing any successful non-traditional types of building. There are various difficulties over the timber houses which the noble Lord was discussing and with which my noble friend Lord Woolton has already dealt. But we are interested in developing nontraditional houses wherever this is possible.
Finally, there is the question of labour. As has already been said this afternoon, the labour force is approximately the same as it was before the war, but it is distributed somewhat differently. A greater amount of labour was engaged on new housing before the war than is the case to-day when, owing to the ravages of war and to the long period of lack of maintenance, a considerably greater labour force is occupied on repairs and maintenance. I do not think that it will be possible immediately to switch a large amount of labour from the maintenance and repair side to new housing. I am sure that those noble Lords who spoke about the maintenance and repair problem will agree that, until we overcome that problem, we cannot switch too much labour away from it. Therefore, any additional labour that will be available must come from build-
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ing other than new housing. As your Lordships know, certain schemes and certain economies are being made in that field to enable greater production for housing to take place.
I am conscious that I have dealt but rather sketchily with the many speeches that have been made this afternoon, but I felt that at this hour your Lordships would wish me to be brief. May I add only this? We, as a Party believe—and I think noble Lords opposite will agree with this—that the family is the basis of the nation, and that a free nation is a community of families. We believe that part of our greatness as a nation has been due to the importance which we have always attached to family life. Certainly not the least of the qualities, if I may say so, which earned for his late Majesty the respect and the sympathy of his people was his own genuine love of family life. And yet a family without a home is like a fish without water. It is our sincere intention to do everything possible to provide homes for the homeless. We shall use all the ingenuity and resources that we can muster for this purpose, and certainly, if enthusiasm and determination still count for anything, we may hope to succeed in our task. If we all succeed, we can feel satisfied that we have made some contribution to the happiness, the stability and the greatness of this country.
8.4 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, this has been a very long debate, but I hope that you will feel that even staying up to this late hour has been well worth while. We have had a number of memorable speeches. I should like to congratulate the two noble Lords who made their maiden speeches, Lord Milner and Lord Wise. They both spoke in the high tradition of this House about subjects with which they are familiar. I am sure we shall he delighted to hear them again. If he will not think me impertinent, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, on his masterly summing-up. It is exceedingly difficult to try to put together so many loose ends over such a long debate. I think he has done very well.
That does not mean for a moment that either he or the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, have completely satisfied me, or

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have replied to all the points that were put, but I did not expect it, and it would have been too much to hope for, because a great many points have been put which obviously they could not possibly have replied to on the spur of the moment or even after the short notice which they had. All I would ask is—and I hope that this is not unreasonable—that they will give careful consideration to the things that have been said in the debate from all sides of the House. There have been a great many useful contributions. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, will read the speeches from this side of the House and refresh his memory, because I think he will find that a good many positive contributions were made from this side which, if accepted, would be of great value in the housing campaign.
I never said that it is impossible to build 300,000 houses in a year. I should like that to be put on record. I have never said so. On the contrary, I said that it is possible. Of course it is possible to build 1,000,000 houses a year. All you need do is to use all your labour and materials for the purpose of building houses. It is all a matter of priority. I do not suggest for a moment that this Government will not do it. What I have said was that they did not put forward a target but a promise, and I thought that the promise was rather rash. I doubt very much whether, assuming that there is a three-year life for this Government, which is about what most people give them, they will reach those 300,000 houses in the third year; but it is quite possible, and I, for one, certainly hope that they will.
There are two things I want to say. One is that perhaps I can in a very few words resolve the conflict between two noble Lords. As usual, they are both right. The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, is quite right: there is no development charge in respect of land which the local authorities held at the time of the passing of the Act, but there is a development charge on land which they subsequently acquired. But, since they can acquire it at existing use value, in theory at any rate, and I am sure in practice in their case, they are paying no more for land than they would have paid if the Town
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and Country Planning Act had not come into operation at all. The aggregate of the existing use value and the development charge value represents what they would have had to pay before the Act. They are no worse off. So the difficulty that the local authorities have about obtaining land is non-existent. The Act is not a deterrent to them, whatever one may say in the case of private persons. But this is not the time or the place to discuss that matter. I would gladly join issue with the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, or anybody else on this question of deterrent. The noble Lord must not interpret my silence as agreement with what he said.
There is one other point I should like to make. I should like to support the most reverend Primate in what he said about repairs to rent-controlled houses. This is a problem, and it is no good saying it is such a difficult problem that no political Party will face it. If my Party had been in office now they would have had to face it. We cannot just accept the position that hundreds of thousands of houses are to be allowed to decay while we are building new ones because the landlords do not get sufficient return in their rents to allow them to carry out these repairs. That is a position which has to be faced. I hope that this Government will have the courage to face it. I am not going to make any positive proposal to-night as to how it should be faced, except to say that in my view if you relate any increase of rent directly to the payment out in respect of repairs, no reasonable person can object. However, I feel this is a matter the Government will have to face in the near future, and I hope that when they do they will face it courageously and not be worried too much about the political consequences.
LORD LLOYD: And we shall have your support?
LORD SILKIN: In a reasonable proposal, certainly. I shall decide what is reasonable. I think we have all been here long enough, and I have great pleasure in withdrawing my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I have pleasure in informing your Lordships that owing to the lateness of the hour Lord Ogmore has postponed his Question until to-morrow.
INCOME TAX BILL [H.L.]
Retuned from the Commons, agreed to.
GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act. 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE BILL
Message from the Commons, That they have appointed a Committee to consist of five Members to be joined with the Committee of this House to consider the said Bill and to request this House to appoint an equal number of Lords to be joined with the Members of their House: Ordered, that the Message be taken into consideration on Thursday next.
House adjourned at fourteen minutes past eight o'clock.