Sitting of 22 April 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Sheffield Aerodrome Project
    Mr. Peter Robertsasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will reconsider his decision regarding the proposed aerodrome at Sheffield and allow the immediate commencement of this project, which will greatly benefit the social and economic life of Sheffield.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The proposed aerodrome on the Redmires site was the subject of a local inquiry. As I informed my hon. Friend, I was unable to agree to its proceeding at this time. It is true that there were substantial objections raised, from the point of view of the amenities of a hospital nearby; but I must say frankly that what weighed with me most in reaching this decision was the undesirability, in my view, of diverting national resources at this moment which are so much needed for constructional work in both the armament, housing and export fields.
    Mr. Roberts: May I ask my right hon. Friend two questions arising out of that? First, does that mean that if the supplies position gets better, it will be possible to review this project earlier than three years; and, secondly, can we take it that his mind is not closed to the use of the Redmires site as an aerodrome at a later date?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am prepared to review the matter when the time comes.

    Cornish Coast-line (Amenities)
    Mr. F. H. Haymanasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will require the planning authority for Cornwall in its development plan to preserve from farming and other operations a strip of land at least 50 yards wide from the edge of the cliff where no use is now made of such land, with the object of preserving the unique flora in many places and the amenities and atmosphere of the proposed coast-line path around the county.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I must await the submission of the development plan, when I shall be able to consider, in conjunction with the Nature Conservancy and the National Parks Commission, whether it provides sufficiently for the preservation of the flora, and the safeguarding of the amenities of the coastline.

    Private Street Works
    Mr. James MacCollasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government on what principles he estimates the relative needs of urban as compared with rural local authorities for capital expenditure on the making up of private streets; and how much was allocated last year for the urban authorities of Lancashire.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Only the most urgent private street works can be authorised under present circumstances, and each case is examined on its merits, irrespective of whether the area is urban or rural. About £290,000 worth of private street works were allowed in the urban areas of Lancashire last year.
    Mr. MacColl: Is the Minister satisfied that too much work is not being done in urban areas at the expense of rural areas where the need is very great?
    Mr. Macmillan: I should not like to encourage rivalry. We must try to be fair.

  HOUSING

    S.E. Regional Production Board
    Sir Leslie Plummerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has yet appointed the Chairman of the South Eastern Regional Housing Production Board; what his

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    name and qualifications are; and how many meetings of the Board have been held since 1st November, 1951.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Yes, Sir. Mr. Harold H. Bagnall, until recently a director of Lever Brothers and Unilever, Limited, has kindly consented to serve as Chairman. The first meeting of the Board will be held shortly.
    Sir L. Plummer: May I ask the Minister to reply to the last part of my Question as to the frequency of meetings?
    Mr. Macmillan: The Board has only just been fully constituted, and therefore it is only just about having its first meeting.
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government why Lieut.-Colonel Colin Blanchard, O.B.E., whose acceptance of an invitation to join the South Eastern Regional Housing Board was acknowledged by one of his officials on 19th February, has heard nothing further to date.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Colonel Blanchard should now have received a summons to attend the first meeting of the Board.

    Coventry
    Miss Elaine Burtonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether in view of the additional demands placed upon Coventry for the housing of workers engaged in defence and export work, he will take steps to provide materials and labour for additional accommodation outside the normal housing programme.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am aware of the special difficulties in Coventry and am doing all I can to help the city council to overcome them. Building labour cannot, however, be directed there.
    Miss Burton: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is not Government policy that in an area which is scheduled for work of this nature the Government are prepared to allocate to the local authority houses additional to the normal programme and that if this involves giving the work to a contractor bringing in labour from outside the area, the Government are prepared to help financially in respect of that labour?
    Mr. Macmillan: All those things are done as necessary.

    Requisitioned Properties (Working Party)
    Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Liptonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will make a statement about the composition and purpose of the proposed working party to consider the future of property requisitioned by local authorities.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: The working party comprises representatives of the associations of local authorities, the London County Council and my Ministry. Its terms of reference are to review the arrangements for emergency accommodation which have been continued in England and Wales since the end of the war, and to report on the measures necessary for relieving the central Government from financial responsibility for the housing of families in requisitioned premises at an early date.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance not to put financial or other pressure on local authorities compelling them either to increase rents paid by the occupants of requisitioned property or to hand this requisitioned property back to private landlords, since both would have the most serious consequences?
    Mr. Macmillan: I have arranged for this matter to be inquired into as a result of most friendly discussions with the local authorities and the London County Council, and it would be better to await their report.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Will the Minister give an assurance that the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) will not be a member of that working party?
    Mr. Stephen Swinglerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether his attention has been drawn to the letter from the Town Clerk of Newcastle-under-Lyme to the secretary of his Department indicating that Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council is opposed to the withdrawal of requisitioning powers for housing purposes under present circumstances; what reply he intends to make; and whether he will now reconsider his policy in this respect.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I have received the Town Clerk's letter. It relates to a warning I gave local authorities that wartime arrangements still in force must gradually be brought to an end. The associations of local authorities have all agreed to join the working party set up to advise me on ways and means. I cannot say more until the working party has reported.

    New Flats (Air-Raid Shelters)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government to what extent it is the policy of his Department to encourage local authorities in London and other urban areas to include the provision of air-raid shelters in designing new blocks of flats.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I should like to encourage local authorities in vulnerable areas to provide air-raid shelters in new blocks of flats, so far as is possible without the use of scarce materials which are needed more urgently for other purposes.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: While it is obvious that this proposal will represent a considerable saving in the provision of air-raid shelters, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Home Office are turning down schemes submitted for their approval for new blocks of flats in Lambeth and other vulnerable areas?

    Lettings (Premiums)
    Mr. C. W. Gibsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware that the law against the charging of premiums for lettings of houses and flats is being evaded by the charging of excessive sums for fittings and furniture, examples of which have been sent to him; and whether he will introduce legislation to make this practice illegal.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I have not had many representations on this practice. It is already illegal under Section 3 of the Landlord and Tenant (Rent Control) Act, 1949, and no further legislation is required.
    Mr. Gibson: Especially in view of the fact that this practice is illegal, which is not generally known, will the Minister take steps to make it more widely known and encourage people to give information and institute prosecutions in cases where this sort of thing happens? Is he aware that
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    only this morning I received a case where a flat has a statutory rent of £84 a year, but the owner is asking actually £1,250 for the furniture and fittings, which is obviously a gross over-estimate of the value of these things? Is it not important that some special pressure should be put on to secure prosecutions in such cases?
    Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman has referred to excessive sums, but without the knowledge of a particular case no one can say what is excessive. As to the general practice my answer is correct, but I am grateful to him for ventilating this matter. Perhaps his Question and my answer will assist someone in the purpose he has in mind.
    Mr. G. R. Howard: Is not the real answer to this that people should deal with reputable firms who do not engage in this sort of practice?
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the Minister aware that there is a real grievance to be redressed in this matter? Is he not also aware that large amounts of rent are demanded in advance, which amount to premiums, and will he take steps to stop that? Is he further aware that there are certain agents who are battening on the needs of people requiring flats to exact fees from them but not finding the flats?
    Mr. Macmillan: The real trouble is the shortage of accommodation, and I am looking to the hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends to assist me in this work.
    Mr. E. Shinwell: If those responsible for instituting prosecutions, if allegations are made, fail to act, does the Minister take any action?
    Mr. Macmillan: I have no reason to suppose that they fail to act. As I said in the first sentence of my original answer, I have not had many representations on the practice but it rests with the local authorities. If there are any difficulties, I am sure they will do their duty.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Brick Production
    Mr. Norman Doddsasked the Minister of Works (1) the percentage increase in brick production for the first three months of 1952 compared with the same period in 1951;

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    (2) what success has attended his efforts to expand brick production; and to what extent it met the full needs of re-armament and the housing programme.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. David Eccles): Brick production in the first three months of this year increased by 13 per cent. compared with the same period of 1951 and has met the needs of the building programme.
    Mr. Dodds: Is it not obvious to the Minister that very much more will have to be done if the many assurances given by the party opposite about house building are to be realised in the near future, and is he hopeful that during the next six months there will be an even larger increase than during the first six months?
    Mr. Eccles: I can only say that if production goes up 13 per cent. more than last year we shall get 800 million more bricks this year, which I think will be enough.
    Mr. Hector McNeil: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that much of this increase is due to the provisions which his predecessors made both in relation to the physical expansion of the industry and the provision of labour?
    Mr. Eccles: I do not want to assess responsibility, but I think much of it is due to the confidence in the industry that the bricks will be wanted.

    Official Car Service
    Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieuasked the Minister of Works why it is proposed to increase the expenditure on the provision of official cars.
    Mr. Eccles: The estimated increase for 1952–53 of £9,000 in the provision for the Official Car Services in sub-section D3 of the Class IX, Vote I, is due to the rise in prices of vehicle spares and repairs.
    Mr. Mallalieu: Does the right hon. Gentleman not remember the line shot in this House by the Prime Minister about the economies in this service, and if those were seriously intended, how is it they have not more that contracted the increase in costs, and why has it been necessary to appoint a new subsection leader, which suggests that more drivers are being employed?
    Mr. Eccles: If the hon. Member will wait a few months he will see that economies are going to be made.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would the Minister say what that means? Does it mean there is going to be a substantial reduction in expenditure because there is to be a substantial reduction in the use of official cars, and will he give us some indication of what the Government's intentions are in this matter?
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir, it does mean that. Including the number of drivers now under notice, 68 have been declared redundant.
    Mr. Shinwell: We want a little more elucidation on this. Will the Minister say whether this means that fewer cars will be at the disposal of Ministers, and who are the Ministers who are going to do without cars and will have to walk?
    Mr. Eccles: Since last October, 97 cars have been given up, and Ministers are using cars much less than they did under the previous Government.
    Mr. Shinwell: In view of the substantial reduction, for which naturally we give the Government credit, how does the right hon. Gentleman account for an increase of £9,000 in the expenditure?
    Mr. Eccles: The only reply to that is that the cost of running, petrol and spares is up, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to wait and he will then see how the Estimates work out.
    Mr. Mallalieu: In view of the discrepancies in the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter at the earliest possible moment.

    National Art Collection (Public Offices)
    Mr. Hamilton Kerrasked the Minister of Works whether he will form a national collection of works of art for display in public offices at home and in Government buildings overseas.
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir. In recent years there has been a large increase in the number of buildings overseas where British prestige has to be maintained. My Ministry has made the best of very slender resources, but these are quite insufficient to do justice to British art in such buildings as Embassies, Consulates, High Commissioners' houses and Governors' residences.

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    I have, therefore, decided to form a collection of pictures and decorative objects to be placed in Government buildings here and abroad. I am inviting both gifts and loans in kind, and cash subscriptions for the purchase of works by dead and living artists. The pictures on loan will be carefully looked after and, in the unlikely event of damage, this will be made good.
    This collection has made a good start. I should like especially to mention the loan of pictures made by my noble Friend Lord Wharton, and a loan of 112 pictures and drawings made by Sir Bruce Ingram. I would be grateful for any help which hon. Members can give to make this venture a success.
    Mr. Kerr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this announcement will give great pleasure to many of those who have long felt that our works of art were inadequately shown in our Embassies, and will he convey our gratitude to the generous donors?
    Mr. A. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many galleries large numbers of pictures are stored away in cellars and that the galleries would be only too pleased for them to be used?
    Mr. Eccles: I think there is a general idea that far more pictures are stored away than is actually the case. I have made a very careful survey of the galleries and, within the limits of their obligations to donors and the limits of their statutes, they have lent very generously.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider displaying in this way those works of art which the public are at present prevented from seeing by the Government's stupid decision to close down part of the Tate Gallery?
    Colonel Alan Gomme-Duncan: Will by right hon. Friend assure the House that this collection will not include the type of picture which even experts cannot tell if it is hung upside down or not?
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: When the right hon. Gentleman is considering the state of Government buildings abroad, will he devote a little attention to the state of the British Embassy in Moscow which is in an unbelievably shabby and dilapidated condition?
    Mr. Eccles: Most certainly I will. Sir.
    Mr. George Wigg: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how much this will cost during the present financial year?
    Mr. Eccles: It will not cost the taxpayer anything at all.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER

    House of Commons (Ventilation)
    Mr. W. M. F. Vaneasked the Minister of Works what instructions he has issued to his maintenance staff in the House of Commons about preventing attempts by hon. Members or others to open windows on the floor below the new Chamber.
    Mr. Eccles: Windows in basement and ground floor offices are kept locked. When a Member asks for a window to be opened, the Control Engineer advises him that if the window is opened the air conditioning will not work efficiently but, if the Member still wishes to have the window opened, this is done.
    Mr. Vane: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this complaint would not arise if the air conditioning system did not make the atmosphere almost intolerable? Is it not almost worse than Socialism that a Minister is not allowed to open the window in his own room without first asking permission?
    Mr. Eccles: I will look into the complaints about the quality of the air, but I think it would be worse if we threw the air conditioning system out of gear by opening the windows.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is this another example of Tory red tape?

    Victoria Tower Repairs
    Mr. Cyril Osborneasked the Minister of Works for how long the Victoria Tower has been under repair; how much these repairs have cost to date; when the work is expected to be finished; how much the total cost will be; and what steps he is taking to get the work completed as quickly and as cheaply as possible.
    Mr. Eccles: Repairs to the stonework of the Victoria Tower started in 1937 and have cost about £300,000 to date. The work should be finished by the end

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    of 1954 at a total estimated cost of £600,000. Within the limits imposed by finance and the supply of stone and stone-masons, the work is being carried out with reasonable speed. The work is done by contract on the basis of competitive tenders.
    Mr. Osborne: As the work started in 1937 and is not expected to be completed until 1954, is the Minister satisfied that time is being used economically and that we are getting the best value for the taxpayers' money?
    Mr. Eccles: Undoubtedly we have lost money because of the war, as the scaffolding had to be removed and put up again. We cannot go faster owing to the limit on the number of craftsmen.

    Westminster Hall (Fire Precautions)
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that there is no means of escape from fire in the secretaries' room at the south end of Westminster Hall; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir. Arrangements are being made to provide a means of escape from this room.
    Mr. MacLeod: While I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him if he can say how many other chambers in the Palace of Westminster are in a similar condition?
    Mr. Eccles: I cannot say without notice.

    Secretarial Accommodation
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Works whether he will provide hon. Members, whose secretaries are accommodated in Westminster Hall, with convenient and adequate facilities for the dictation and signature of correspondence.
    Mr. Eccles: All rooms in the Palace of Westminster are in use. When the Chamber of the House was rebuilt 19 rooms were provided on the lower ground floor for hon. Members to deal with their correspondence.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some 60 secretaries are working in Westminster Hall and that
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    there is room for only four hon. Members at a time to deal with letters? Will he made a really determined effort to improve the deplorable conditions under which hon. Members have to work, conditions which would not be tolerated in a Government Department or in industry?
    Mr. Eccles: We are governed by the amount of space available. I have noticed that many hon. Members seem to prefer to do their correspondence in the Lobby and in other places, and I have had no complaint except that from the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is always room for twice as many people in the basement as are ever engaged with the secretaries?

  EMPLOYMENT

    Agriculture (Foreign Workers)
    Mr. Gerald Williamsasked the Minister of Labour (1) if he has considered using Italian labour on farms in this country;
    (2) if he has considered using German labour on farms in this country.
    The Minister of Labour (Sir Walter Monckton): If the need for additional farm labour increases and cannot be met from sources in this country, I shall be glad, in consultation with my right hon. Friends, to discuss with both sides of the industry any proposals that may be made for recruitment of farm workers from abroad.
    Mr. Williams: Will my right hon. and learned Friend see if in the meantime he could use Italian miners who have come over here and have been unable to get suitable employment in the mines?
    Sir W. Monckton: As regards those who have been recruited for the mines, understand that the National Coal Board is still doing all it can to see if it can find them the employment for which they came. If the Italians are unable to find that employment, it does not follow that they would be suitable for or ready to accept work on farms.
    Mr. Dryden Brook: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that there are large numbers of unemployed in the West Riding of Yorkshire and in

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    Lancashire while at the same time foreigners are engaged in the districts where those people are unemployed?
    Sir W. Monckton: That is a different matter, but I will certainly take it into account.

    Unemployment (Textile Industries and Docks)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that on 17th March there was an increase of 39,494 registered unemployed over the figure on 11th February; that 432,974 workers were registered as unemployed on 17th March; and what action Her Majesty's Government are taking to deal with this grave situation.
    Sir W. Monckton: Yes, Sir. The rise in unemployment between February and March was more than accounted for by increased unemployment in the textile industries: outside these industries unemployment fell by 7,000. The recession in the textile industries is world-wide in scope, and recovery from it depends on how quickly there is a general revival of demand for their products. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in the debate on 7th April announced measures which the Government are taking to help the industries in the meantime.
    Mr. Lewis: While I appreciate that, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman has explained, the textile industry makes up a large proportion, is he aware that if he looks at Question No. 27 he will see that there is an increase of 10,000 in the number of dockers unemployed and, therefore, the figure is not entirely made up of textile workers? What does the right hon. and learned Gentleman propose to do about the very grave problem of general unemployment in the country?
    Sir W. Monckton: I had, of course, observed the next Question, which I will answer when it is asked. However, I would draw attention to the fact that I was not seeking to say that in no industry at all had there been in the month any rise in unemployment; I was only pointing out that if we take the total apart from the textile trade there has been a decrease in the total and not a rise. I appreciate that that does not mean a completely level position over all industry.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that on 4th April
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    there were 14,793 registered unemployed dock workers, as compared with 4,841 a year ago; and what action he proposes to take to deal with this grave situation.
    Sir W. Monckton: These figures relate to registered dock workers who were not required for work on a particular day, but are entitled to payments under the Dock Labour Scheme. It is the responsibility of the National Dock Labour Board to adjust the numbers of registered workers to normal requirements, but there is bound to be a substantial surplus from time to time when the volume of work falls below the normal.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware—
    Major Guy Lloyd: On a point of order. May I have your guidance, Mr. Speaker, as to whether the latter part of the Question is in order? It is addressed to the Minister of Labour, but the employment of dock labour is exclusively within the province of the Dock Labour Board and has, therefore, nothing to do with the Minister of Labour?
    Mr. Speaker: The Question was perfectly in order.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware that for the first time in six years there has been an increase of 10,000 in the number of unemployed in the dock industry in one year, and that this is very serious for London and the ports of the country generally? Will he consider doing something to give the dock workers alternative employment when they cannot get suitable work at the docks?
    Sir W. Monckton: The first thing I would point out is that the comparison made between 4,800 on 4th April last year and 14,700 on 4th April this year is simply taking one year at a particular date with another year. If one took the figures for the preceding years, it would be found that in 1950 the number was 10,500 odd; in 1949, 9,500; and in 1948, 12,100. One must not, therefore, draw too much of an inference from a particular comparison.
    Nevertheless, there has been an increase, but I would draw the hon. Member's attention to this: That in their ordinary work, the National Dock Labour Board see to it that these men are paid for the turns they attend and that in addition there is, of course, a

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    minimum wage which they have to get. It so happens that they have to adjust the register. They do so on a six-monthly basis and today is the day on which they begin their review, which means, therefore, that they will be back on a normal basis.
    Mr. R. J. Mellish: Is the Minister aware that unemployment today is rising? It is not a question of its being seasonal, but is a direct consequence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's policy of £600 million import cuts, most of which have not yet been felt in the docks industry. There is going to be some great trouble here. Does it not rather make a farce of the Ports Efficiency Committee, which has been established to see whether it can get a quicker turn-round of shipping, when dockers are being sacked by the thousand?
    Sir W. Monckton: It would be dangerous to draw an inference from these figures about the Ports Efficiency Committee. If the cuts in imports have that effect, at a later stage one will have to do one's best to deal with it.

    Shops and Offices (Factories Acts)
    Mr. Joseph T. Priceasked the Minister of Labour if he will introduce amending legislation to extend the provisions of the Factories Acts to shops, warehouses and offices.
    Sir W. Monckton: No, Sir. Many of the provisions of the Factories Acts would be inapplicable to shops and offices. The needs of such premises in regard to health, welfare and safety requirements are more appropriately dealt with in separate legislation.
    Mr. Price: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that between 2 and 3 million persons are working in the types of premises referred to in the Question and that in all these premises—warehouses, shops and offices—are installed numerous power driven machines—slicers, mincers, crushers, electrical appliances, lifts and lifting tackle of all kinds—and that where accidents occur the Ministry have no record of them because there is no statutory right which permits them to record the accidents?
    Sir W. Monckton: The Question which I was asked dealt with the appropriateness of applying the Factories Acts to these premises. The matter, as the hon. Gentleman is, no doubt, aware was carefully considered by the Gowers Committee, which reported to other Ministries. The Report which they made is being considered by those Ministers, and on an official level, but it is by no means the case that either the Committee or any other body has suggested the mere application of the Factories Acts to those premises.
    Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Would my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that before extending the provisions of the Factories Acts, we ought to bring up the establishment of the factory inspectors so that they can give proper supervision in the areas already covered?

    Armed Forces (Civilians)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Labour how many people are engaged in the production of armaments and in the feeding, clothing and housing of the armed forces.
    Sir W. Monckton: It is not possible to give information in the precise form in which the hon. Member asks for it, but it has been estimated that there are over a million civilians employed by or on behalf of the armed forces.
    Mr. Osborne: Can the Minister give the rough figures for, say, 1938?
    Sir W. Monckton: Not without notice.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it was hoped that by this time he would have had quite a large transference of people into the re-armament industries, and how does he think that those hopes are being realised by the transference we have had to date?
    Sir W. Monckton: I do not think I can answer that query on this Question, but I shall be glad to deal with it if it is on the Paper.

  SCOTLAND

    Art Teachers (Pay)
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the fact that revised salary

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    scales for all teachers in central art institutions in Scotland have not yet been fixed, he will inquire into the ways by which salary scales for such teachers are fixed, with a view to expediting settlements by the adoption of procedures customary in the negotiation of salary scales of other teachers.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. James Stuart): While the salaries paid in central institutions are subject to my approval for the purposes of the Central Institution (Scotland) Grant Regulations, the fixing of these salaries is the responsibility of the governing bodies of the different institutions. The normal practice is for negotiations on salary changes to take place between the governing body and the staff of each central institution. Any change in such procedure would be a matter for agreement between the two sides.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable dissatisfaction amongst the staff of the Edinburgh College of Art about the delay in meeting their claims for increases in salaries?
    Mr. Stuart: The Department have no knowledge of any dissatisfaction at the method of negotiating these claims. I should be very glad to consider any suggestions which may be made.

    Doctors
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many general practitioners in Scotland are now receiving payment from the National Health Service; and what were the corresponding numbers in each year since the inception of the Service.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The number of principals providing general medical services in Scotland under the National Health Service was 2,400 at 1st January, 1952; 2,402 at 1st January, 1951; 2,421 at 1st January, 1950, and 2,341 at 1st January, 1949.
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the sum of money paid in the financial years 1949–50, 1950–51, 1951–52, under the National Health Service to general practitioners in Scotland.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The amount paid to doctors in the financial year 1949–50 for
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    the provision of general and maternity medical services and the supply and dispensing of medicines was £5,146,353; the corresponding figure for 1950–51 was £5,220,544, and for 1951–52, £5,211,915.

    Prescriptions
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the average cost of a National Health Service prescription in each of the five years from 1948 to 1952.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The approximate average cost per prescription in Scotland was 3s. 6d. in the second half of 1948; in 1949 it was 4s. 1d., in 1950 4s. 4½d., and in 1951 4s. 7d. Figures for 1952 are not yet available.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the Minister give any good reason why the implications of these figures should not be given every facility for full discussion under the National Health Bill now before the House?
    Mr. Stuart: That is rather a different point and perhaps is for those in charge of the National Health Bill.

    Deer
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total area of deer forest land in Scotland; the area of land in Scotland grazed by deer and also by cattle and sheep; how many deer forests there are; the estimated deer population of each forest for each year since 1931; and the estimated total deer population today.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The Agricultural Returns of 4th June 1951, show that there are 196 deer forests in Scotland extending to some 3,100,000 acres. Of this total slightly over 1,000,000 acres are returned as being grazed by cattle and sheep. I regret that information as to the estimated population of each forest for each year since 1931 is not available. The total deer population today probably exceeds 100,000, but here again no reliable information is available.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that legislation is pending relating to deer? Can he say how many individuals own these vast territories, and is it not a fact that during their years of ownership they have done very little to solve the problems relating to deer?
    Mr. Stuart: I think the numbers of owners would approximate to 196, that being the number of forests.
    Mr. W. W. Astor: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to make it more profitable and practicable for owners of deer forests to agist cattle during the summer months?
    Mr. Stuart: We want to feed all the cattle we can on the hills.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland his estimate of the extent and value of the damage to crops caused by deer in Scotland during each of the last 20 years; in which districts this damage occurred; and what steps he proposes to take to control the herds which cause this damage and to organise them in national parks for their own protection and the protection of crops.
    Mr. J. Stuart: There is no statutory or other obligation on deer forest owners or agriculturists to report damage by deer, and I have no statistical data which would enable me to give any estimate of the extent and value of such damage or to say in which districts it may have occurred.
    Agricultural executive committees have power in certain circumstances under the Agriculture (Scotland) Act, 1948, to secure the destruction of deer causing or likely to cause damage to agricultural production.
    The hon. and learned Member's suggestion that deer should be confined to national parks raises wide administrative issues which cannot well be dealt with by way of question and answer.
    Mr. Hughes: Is it not clear, in view of the failure of the existing owners of these deer forests to discharge their ordinary duties to the deer, that it is time the deer were protected in national parks?
    Mr. Stuart: I can only say that to contain deer would involve a great deal of fencing of a very high and expensive character.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the annual wastage and loss of life among the deer of Scotland; the causes of this wastage; and how much of it is due to starvation, disease, wounding, sport and poaching, respectively.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the right hon. Gentleman suggest any other way of protecting these deer than that of protecting them in national parks?
    Mr. Stuart: I must say that it is not a question I have considered up to date, but it would be an expensive project.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Would my right hon. Friend consider introducing a closed season for deer when the Bill from the other place reaches this House, or before?
    Mr. Stuart: I am very anxious to do all I can in that respect, but there are difficulties.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: In view of the fact that neither the Secretary of State for Scotland, nor any one else, seems to know anything about what is happening to deer in deer forests except by poachers, what right have they to introduce a Bill in this House, based on no information or evidence whatever, in order to suppress the poacher, who, if anyone has it, has a certain natural right to do something about deer?
    Major D. McCallum: Will my right hon. Friend say how this Government, or any other Government, could keep deer within a national park?
    Mr. A. C. Manuel: In view of his reply regarding damage caused, that there was no statistical record, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many areas there is no feeding of deer in the winter? Could he influence some of his hon. Friends to help the deer over the hard period and thus preserve good arable land?

    Hill Farming Comprehensive Schemes
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of holdings under each of the comprehensive schemes for improvement formally approved under the Hill Farming Act.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I presume that the Question refers to the crofting township schemes in the county of Ross and Cromarty, which were the subject of a Question yesterday. The numbers of holdings in each of the three townships in

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    Ross and Cromarty, for which schemes have been formally approved, are 28, 20 and 10.
    Mr. MacLeod: Could my right hon. Friend say what part the proprietors of these townships, which are being carried out on a comprehensive basis, are playing in these schemes and how many of these holdings belong to the Department of Agriculture?
    Mr. Stuart: If my hon. Friend will put down another Question, I can answer that.

    Right of Way Dispute, Armadale
    Mr. John Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the United Fireclay Products, Ltd., 141, West George Street, Glasgow, have cut off supplies of water to the tenants of Glenlark Cottages, Armadale, West Lothian, in consequence of a dispute over a right of way in which the tenants are not legally involved; and if he will take immediate steps to ensure that the water services are restored pending a settlement of the dispute.
    Mr. J. Stuart: Under new arrangements for supply made yesterday, the service of water to the cottages has now been restored.

  HOUSING, SCOTLAND

    Scandinavian Timber Houses
    Mr. A. S. Moodyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement regarding the scheme for importing Scandinavian timber houses.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The lowest of the quotations which I have received from both foreign and home manufacturers is from the Weir Housing Corporation of Coat-bridge, Scotland. I have, therefore, arranged that this firm will undertake a programme, based on orders from local authorities, for the manufacture and erection of up to 3,000 timber houses in 1952 and 1953. This is the maximum number for which timber can be provided in present circumstances and I have been obliged to scale down the total demands of local authorities accordingly. Nevertheless, these houses should ease the demand for bricks which are scarce.
    I am sending a circular to local authorities tonight giving them details of the
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    scheme and am writing to selected authorities offering them allocations under the programme.
    Mr. Moody: While thanking the Minister for his second and wiser thoughts on this problem, may I ask whether he is aware that in the building industry there is great dissatisfaction at the loose way the quantities were prepared to be sent out for tender and, secondly, at the time limit that was placed on contractors for doing their estimating—15 days, which included Christmas and New Year holidays? Generally, the tenders were more in the nature of guess work than honest tendering, and there is a danger that if these—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must ask hon. Members to keep their supplementary questions short.
    Mr. Moody: Will the right hon. Gentleman pay attention to the drafting of quantities in the future, because the prices being estimated for now are likely to be exceeded when the completed price is fixed?
    Mr. Stuart: I shall certainly pay attention to any suggestion which the hon. Member makes.
    Mr. Patrick Maitland: Does this mean that the scheme for importing timber houses from Scandinavia has been abolished, and secondly, will my right hon. Friend look into the previous complaints made amongst other things by the East Kilbride Development Corporation against bad construction by this firm?
    Mr. Stuart: We certainly do not want bad construction. It is the case that we are not importing timber houses but are manufacturing them at home.
    Mr. Woodburn: While we welcome the Minister's statement that these houses are to be manufactured in Scotland, may I take it that the Government have not closed their minds to importing additional houses if that can be arranged in the proper exchange of trade? If this can be facilitated, is there any objection to importing additional timber houses, which have made a great contribution to overcoming the shortage in Scotland?
    Mr. Stuart: I should be very glad to consider any suggestions which the right hon. Gentleman or any other hon. Member has to make on the subject.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is this the final word that there will be no importation of Scandinavian houses, because a great many contractors are keeping their orders open? Will my right hon. Friend say whether the firm in Coatbridge is the only one that is allowed to tender in future?
    Mr. Stuart: It is not the only firm which is allowed to tender. The point is that they produced the lowest tender, and one can get cheaper production by having the whole of this limited programme in the hands of one firm.

    Building Contracts
    Major W. J. Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what steps he has taken to circularise local authorities as to the desirability of permitting the use of substitute material in house-building contracts whenever necessary, in order to avoid delay in construction provided this is not detrimental to the general standard required;
    (2) whether he will circularise local authorities with a view to urging upon them the desirability of paying promptly for house-building work undertaken on their behalf.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I have sent to the hon. and gallant Member a copy of a circular which I issued to local authorities on 9th April about these matters.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: Arising out of the second of these Questions, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the increased rate of overdraft interest makes the second Question very important to builders and that they should not be left too long without their money?
    Mr. Stuart: I agree, and I think my hon. and gallant Friend will find that advice has been tendered on this subject.
    Mr. McNeil: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care to circulate that part of his reply which deals with substitute house-building materials to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Works who, 15 minutes ago, was bragging to the House of a 13 per cent. increase in brick production and prophesied more bricks and therefore less use of substitute materials?
    Mr. Stuart: I shall be very glad to offer that information to my right hon. Friend.
    Miss Margaret Herbison: Since the right hon. Gentleman has shown, in answer to a previous Question, that he has discovered something which he and his party pretended not to know about before—the shortage of bricks—will he reconsider his decision about importing timber houses from Scandinavia, because there is a very great shortage of houses and a crying need for them?
    Mr. Stuart: I can assure the hon. Lady that we want to get all we can, but financial considerations make it impossible for me to suggest at the moment that there will be more timber houses.
    Mr. McNeil: Surely the right hon. Gentleman had these same considerations in mind when six months ago he and his colleagues were promising the importation of Scandinavian houses?
    Mr. Stuart: We were then asked to consider tenders from manufacturers at home.

  INVALID MOTOR TRICYCLES (PETROL COSTS)
  Mr. Anthony Hurdasked the Minister of Pensions if he has considered representations from the Invalid Tricycle Association asking that the disabled, for whom motor tricycles have been provided, should be given some assistance in meeting the increased cost of petrol; and if he will make a statement on the cost involved.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions (Brigadier J. G. Smyth): My hon. Friend has received no such representations. On the basis of an average annual mileage of about 4,500, the cost per annum of meeting in full the increase in the price of petrol would be about £16,000.
  Mr. Hurd: As the Minister has had no representation direct, will he take into account representations received by individual Members of Parliament? This is a considerable charge, and will he ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal as fairly with the tricycle men as he has dealt with those who have motor cars?
  Brigadier Smyth: The additional cost per mile resulting from the increase in the petrol tax is very low for these tricycles—one-ninth of a penny and one-sixth of a penny. But the question of an allowance to meet the extra cost is one of the matters which my hon. Friend is discussing with the other Ministers concerned.
  Dr. Horace King: Is the Minister aware that there is on both sides of the House considerable support for the claims of these men, because the tricycles are practically their means of livelihood, and will he give very sympathetic consideration to them?
  Brigadier Smyth: That is very well realised and, as I have already said, discussions are at present taking place.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Military College of Science
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Secretary of State for War what progress he is making with regard to his proposals for the development of the Military College of Science as an alternative Army entry to Sandhurst.
    The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. G. R. H. Hutchison): I am sorry that I cannot at present add anything to what my right hon. Friend has already said about this project. It is important that it should be thoroughly examined, and this is being done with all possible speed. My hon. Friend can rest assured that an announcement will be made as soon as decisions have been reached.

    Personal Case
    Mr. F. Beswickasked the Secretary of State for War if he will review the case of 22418428 Driver Coxwell, at present engaged on his two years National Service, who has suffered two serious attacks of meningitis, and whose present condition gives cause for anxiety to his parents; and if, in view of the fact that this Service man is not fit for all duties, he will now sanction his release.
    Mr. Hutchison: My right hon. Friend has reviewed this case. But, since he is advised that this soldier is fit for light duties in the United Kingdom, he cannot agree to his release.
    Mr. Beswick: Is the Under-Secretary aware that it really does seem incredible that the War Office should want to hang on to this young man? On the first occasion of his illness he had a most lucky escape. He was then left untreated, as it was considered he was drunk. He has since had a second serious attack of this disease; he is no use to the Army; his physical condition does not allow him to undertake full duties, and his own doctor says it is imperative he should come out. Why, therefore, cannot the War Office allow him to come out?
    Mr. Hutchison: I quite understand the anxiety of the hon. Member, and of the parents of this man, owing to the grave reputation which this disease used to have. But modern conditions and treatment have greatly alleviated that. This soldier had very careful treatment both on the first and the second occasion—on the second occasion by one of the most eminent neurologists in the country. Then a medical board was held. I am in the great difficulty that if one has these eminent people called in to advise, it would be a mistake to override their opinion.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would the hon. Gentleman say what purpose is served by retaining this man? Would he say what are his present duties and if they are of a non-military or non-regimental character? If they are, could not a civilian undertake them?
    Mr. Hutchison: The driver is at the moment employed in driving on local journeys and is under observation by his unit doctor—[HON. MEMBERS: "Driving?"]—and it is not considered that there is any cause for anxiety. If it would help the hon. Gentleman, I will make an inquiry to see that the observation is really a thorough observation.
    Mr. Beswick: In view of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Shropshire Light Infantry, Korea (Leave)
    Mr. S. S. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for War is he is aware that the men of the 1st Battalion King's Shropshire Light Infantry now in Korea were promised leave after 16 months; that they

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    have served in Hong Kong for 21 months and for 11 months in Korea; and when they will be granted home leave.
    Mr. Hutchison: I know of no such promise and to give one would be contrary to War Office policy. This battalion will, however, in the normal course of events move from the Far East to Northwest Europe this autumn and it is hoped that an opportunity for a period of home leave will then occur.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that these men have been out in Korea and the Far East for two years and nine months without any home leave; and will he take steps to see that these young men, who have been either in the Far East or the Near East for a reasonable period, get home leave?
    Mr. Hutchison: We are anxious that these units should be staged on their way back in Britain so that they can get home leave and, as I have said, we are hoping that will be possible this autumn. But the exigencies of the Service must always make the first claim on movements of this kind, although we are anxious to do what the hon. Member wants.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Has the Minister seen some rather disturbing figures relating to difficulties which have arisen regarding the domestic affairs of many of these soldiers, and will he bear this factor in mind in getting something done about it?
    Mr. Hutchison: Interests such as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has brought to my attention are among the things which make it desirable that some sort of leave should be given.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Would the hon. Gentleman consider how far it is appropriate in the case of National Service men, whose total liability is two years training service, that they should be called upon to spend a period in more than one danger area, as so many of these young men are being called on to do?
    Mr. Hutchison: That is another question of which I should require notice.
    Commander C. E. M. Donaldson: Will the Minister give the same undertaking in relation to every regiment of
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    the British Army serving in Korea regarding their leave and return to this country?
    Mr. Hutchison: The policy I have outlined is the general policy.
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: Is the Minister aware that there are other regiments where men are in the position that their stay in Korea has been extended by six months, and that they have been out there practically three years?
    Mr. Hutchison: I realise the period of service out there has been extended. We have done what we can to make local leave available, although this is something of a makeshift since I realise that it is home leave which they are really anxious to have. But I cannot go further than I have at present.

    Collective Punishment (Civilian Populations)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for War if he will give instructions that the imposition of collective penalties is not to be used by the British Army, as it was scheduled by the United Nations War Crimes Commission in 1943.
    Mr. Hutchison: In the imposition of collective punishment the British Amy follows the customary laws and usages of war, and in particular the so-called Hague Rules. No collective penalty may be inflicted on the population in occupied territory on account of acts of individuals for which it cannot be regarded as collectively responsible, although in certain circumstances action against a locality or a community may be admissible specifically as reprisals. My right hon. Friend sees no reason at the present time to vary the existing policy.
    Mr. Hynd: While that sounds a very complicated legal formula for preventing something which has been universally condemned, would it not be easier for the War Office to draw the attention of the British Army to this decision as mentioned in the Question, and were not people tried and condemned at Nuremberg for doing that very thing?
    Mr. Hutchison: I do not know what specific case the hon. Gentleman has in mind, but I am not aware of any collective penalties being imposed by the British Army at all.
    Mr. E. Fernyhough: Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that the Colonial Secretary has supported General Templer in imposing collective punishment? Is he aware that the punishing of the innocent for the guilty is anathema to millions in this country? Is he further aware that this punishment entailed keeping young children confined for 22 hours out of 24, and will he have a word with the Colonial Secretary to see that this practice is not continued?
    Mr. Hutchison: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman himself could have a word with the Colonial Secretary by putting down a Question to him. This is not my responsibility.

    Z Reservists (Exemptions and Deferments)
    Wing Commander Eric Bullusasked the Secretary of State for War the total number of exemptions and deferments, respectively, in the Z training scheme granted this year, at the latest available date.
    Mr. Hutchison: Twenty-three thousand one hundred and twenty-four Z reservists have been granted exemption from this year's training and the training dates of 2,389 reservists have been changed.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Is my hon. Friend able to say what percentage of the total call-up these figures represent?
    Mr. Hutchison: The total call-up is in the region of 243,000. My hon. and gallant Friend can work it out for himself: it comes to about 10 per cent.

    Battle Areas (Mine Clearance)
    Mr. W. E. Deedesasked the Secretary of State for War what facilities the Royal Engineers provide for sweeping by detectors former defensive zones in this country which, on being ploughed up as marginal land, have been found to contain live British anti-tank mines.
    Mr. Hutchison: The Royal Engineers do not provide facilities, but there are still a few battle area clearance teams which are being made available for this work, including the particular task in which my hon. Friend is interested.
    Mr. Deedes: Is my hon. Friend aware that there was some delay
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    in this case, even in acknowledging the request for the Services to detect the mines, and, if the services cannot be provided promptly, will he give an undertaking that a suitable acknowledgment is made by the commander concerned?
    Mr. Hutchison: Yes, I will certainly do that. It might help my hon. Friend to know that the officer in charge of the team is due to arrive in the Command on Friday.

  COTTON IMPORT COMMITTEE (REPORT)
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
  54. Mr. F. J. ERROLL,—To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will now make an announcement about the Government's intentions with regard to the recommendations contained in the Hopkins Committee Report.
  The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to answer Question No. 54.
  The Report of the Cotton Import Committee, which my noble Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and I set up, has been laid before Parliament, and is now available in the Vote Office.
  The Committee, whose terms of reference were to consider how, in the current foreign exchange position, cotton could best be supplied to the United Kingdom cotton industry, included representatives of the cotton industry, the cotton merchants, the trade unions, the Cotton Board, and the Raw Cotton Commission, under the Chairmanship of the right hon. Sir Richard Hopkins. I am glad to say its Report is unanimous. I am sure that the House would wish me to express our gratitude to the Chairman and members for the work they have done.
  The main feature of the Report is the recommendation that each year spinners will be given an option to buy their cotton on their own account, using merchants as they wish. The Raw Cotton Commission will continue to supply those who choose to buy from it. The Report recommends that the spinner shall make his choice annually of how he wishes to buy all his cotton in each of the main types. So long

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  as the import of particular growths, for example U.S. cotton, has to be restricted for currency reasons, each spinner who chooses to buy these growths on his own account will be entitled to import a share calculated on the same basis as will apply to the Raw Cotton Commission. Entitlements shall be transferable, so that spinners can thereby obtain the cotton best adapted to their particular requirements.
  It is recommended that the Raw Cotton Commission shall provide appropriate futures cover arrangements for those spinners who do their own buying and for the merchants who serve them. The Report also recommends the setting up of a Panel to advise on the administration of the scheme.
  Her Majesty's Government accept the recommendations in the Report. Arrangements are being made to put them into effect as soon as possible, so that they may operate during the forthcoming buying season.
  Mr. Erroll: Is the President aware that these steps to freedom will be greeted with great satisfaction by all concerned, and can he say if any legislation will be necessary to give effect to these proposals?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: No legislation will be required to give effect to these proposals, as action can be taken by administrative steps under the existing law.
  Mr. Anthony Greenwood: I should like to join with the right hon. Gentleman in congratulating the Committee on the speed with which it discharged its task, for this is a most technical and complicated problem, and I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House would like to reserve their judgment on the merits of the proposals until they have had a further opportunity to consider them.
  In the meantime, perhaps I may put three questions to the right hon. Gentleman for clarification of the issues which are involved. The first concerns the extent to which the scheme involves the reopening of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange, and whether the Exchange will be able to deal in futures; secondly, whether any additional dollar expenditure will be involved; and, finally, whether the trade unions will be represented on the panel which is to be set up to advise on the administration of the scheme?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: On the question of futures, the arrangements suggested, which are, as the hon. Gentleman says, somewhat complex, are set out fully in the Report, and provide that the Raw Cotton Commission should provide the futures cover. With regard to dollar expenditure, no additional dollar expenditure will be involved under the proposals in the Report, but those spinners or merchants who opt to buy American types on their own will, of course, get a dollar allocation for the purpose. With regard to the third point, I have not yet discussed in full with my noble Friend the constitution of the advisory panel, but I should certainly think that the trade unions, which have made a most valuable contribution in these discussions, will be represented.
  Sir H. Williams: On a point of order. May I ask whether a copy of this reply has been supplied to the Opposition Front Bench and not afforded to the hon. Gentleman who asked this Question, because it would appear to me that the three questions asked by the hon. Gentleman opposite could not have been prepared in advance unless a copy of the answer had been supplied to him in advance. [Interruption.] I am raising an issue on behalf of the whole of private Members of this House. I do not think the hon. Gentleman opposite could have asked those questions unless he had had the answer supplied to him in advance.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: In reply to my hon. Friend, I extended what I think is the normal courtesy; that is, I supplied a copy of the answer both to my hon. Friend who asked the Question and the hon. Gentleman opposite.
  Sir H. Williams: Further to that point of order. After many years in this House, I have never yet been given an advanced copy of an answer to a Question. [Interruption.] I do wish hon. Members opposite would restrain themselves. I say that I have never been given the answer to a Question before it was asked, and, therefore, I want to know why the hon. Member for Altrincham (Mr. Erroll) and the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) were given the answer before this Question was asked, and without knowing that it would not be reached in the ordinary way?
  Mr. Fernyhough: Is it not obvious to the whole House that this is not the Question of the hon. Member for Altrincham (Mr. Erroll) but that of the President of the Board of Trade, and that all that the hon. Member for Altrincham did was to sign it?
  Mr. Erroll: May I correct the erroneous impression given by the hon. Member? I have been repeatedly putting down Questions of my own composition to the Minister.
  Hon. Members: Withdraw.

SIR STAFFORD CRIPPS (TRIBUTES)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): Since we met here yesterday, we have learned of the death of a statesman of national pre-eminence who has long served with distinction in the House of Commons, and it is in accordance with recent precedents that I should attempt to pay some tribute, necessarily brief and inadequate, to his memory.
Stafford Cripps was a man of force and fire. His intellectual and moral passions were so strong that they not only inspired but not seldom dominated his actions. They were strengthened and also governed by the workings of a powerful, lucid intelligence, and by a deep and lively Christian faith. He strode through life with a remarkable indifference to material satisfactions or worldly advantages. I suppose there are few hon. Members in any part of the House who have not differed violently from him at this time or that, and yet there is none who did not regard him with respect and with admiration, not only for his abilities, but for his character.
His friends—and they were many—among whom I am proud to take my place, were conscious, in addition to his public gifts, of the charm of his personality and of the wit and gaiety with which he enlivened not only the mellow hours but also the hard discharge of laborious business in anxious or perilous times. In all his complicated political career he was the soul of honour, and his courage was proof against every test which the terrible years through which we have passed could bring.
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Having sat with him in the war-time Cabinet, which he joined in 1942 and of which he was always a member, or, as we called it in those days, a "constant attender," I can testify to the immense value of his contributions to our discussions. There was no topic I can remember—and no doubt right hon. Gentlemen opposite have longer experiences of their own—on which he did not throw a clarifying light and to which he did not often bring a convenient and apt solution.
Most of us have in our memories the distinction with which he filled the great office of the Exchequer and how easily he explained and interpreted the problems of finance. We could not always all agree with his policy, but everyone was grateful for its exposition. Though a master of words and dialectic both in the law and in Parliament, he had also a most practical and organising side to his nature. During the First World War he managed a small arms factory and its excellence and efficiency was brought to my notice when I was Minister of Munitions.
It was this that prompted me to offer him the most complex business of the Ministry of Aircraft Production in the Second World War after he ceased to lead this House, and I have very little doubt that his conduct of it was not only most helpful to our interests but highly congenial to his nature. His was a mind that fastened itself as easily upon small as upon great things and to whom detail was no burden but often almost a relief.
One of the most recent precedents for the intervention I am making today was when the House paid its tribute to Oliver Stanley who, like Stafford Cripps, was in our own time a Member for Bristol. Both had qualities which will long be cherished in that famous city where they were so well-known.
It is not for me, in these few words, to attempt to epitomise the place which Stafford Cripps will bear in the history of our life and times, or of his contribution to their politcal philosophy; but that, as a man, he had few his equals in ability or virtue will be generally affirmed by his contemporaries; and that he brought an unfailing flow of courage, honour and faith to bear upon our toils and torments will be attested by all who knew him and most of all by those who knew him best.

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Our hearts go out to the noble woman, his devoted wife, who, through these long months of agony, mocked by false dawns, has been his greatest comfort on earth. To her we express profound sympathy this afternoon, and we trust that she may find some solace in the fact that Stafford's memory shines so brightly among us all.
Mr. C. R. Attlee: I desire, on behalf of my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the House and myself, to try to add something to the very fine and generous tribute which the Prime Minister has paid to the late Sir Stafford Cripps, whose untimely loss we mourn today. He was a man the greatness of whose intellectual and practical abilities was matched by his nobility of character and high idealism.
He came from a remarkable family with a high tradition of public and social service. When he entered this House he had already become a leading figure at the Bar. He united high scientific attainments with a mastery of detail and a power of clear exposition and incisive argument. Many great barristers have failed in this House. Stafford Cripps succeeded at once.
I recall how he had immediately to take part in piloting a difficult Budget and how well he succeeded. In the years that followed he was one of the mainstays of the very small Labour Opposition of those years. Later his enthusiasm, his eagerness and his impatience led him into paths which the majority of us could not follow, but there was never any breach of friendship, and there was never any doubt of his sincerity.
Experience, I think, led him to maturer views without in any way impairing his fervent Socialist faith. The Prime Minister has spoken of his work in the war-time Government, when he led this House and when later he ran a great Department. It was a great pleasure to me when he rejoined our party and took office as President of the Board of Trade. Later he became Chancellor of the Exchequer and most hon. and right hon. Members will remember his lucid speeches when he introduced his Budgets and when he dealt with economic issues. He took a major share in dealing with the very difficult economic and financial problems of the post-war period and in planning the economy of the country.
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His high sense of duty drove him to tax his physical resources to the utmost. He worked intolerably long hours, yet retained his serenity. He took his full share in every kind of work of Government and he faced his problems with the same courage with which he met criticism. He was never afraid of the unpopular course if he held it to be right. I believe he did immense service to this country.
But foreign affairs and economics are so closely linked in these days that he worked also in the international field. Here he and his fellow Westcountryman, Ernest Bevin, two Gloucester men coming from such very different social environments, worked closely and harmoniously together. He was largely responsible for setting up the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation. Despite the strong views which he held so tenaciously he was an admirable colleague, always ready to help others. In particular, he took infinite pains to encourage and bring forward younger colleagues.
He and Lady Cripps were both deeply interested in China and India. His mission to India during the war and his leadership of the Cabinet mission later paved the way for the ultimate settlement of the problem of Indian self-Government. Here his close friendship with leading Indians was a great help.
I think that everyone who was brought in contact with Stafford Cripps realised that he was a man of high principle. He was deeply religious, a devout member of the Church of England, and brought to his work the inspiration of high purpose. He was a keen Socialist; his Christianity and Socialism were the guiding forces of his life. I think few men have been so little regardful of self. And he was no cold intellectual. On the contrary, he was a very warm-hearted, generous and lovable man with great personal charm. His interests were wide and his capabilities in many fields were manifold. He suffered constantly from ill-health and during the last two years of his life when this became serious he met it with unflinching courage, and it was only the positive orders of his doctors that forced him to retire from active life.
I had the privilege of his friendship and worked closely with him for many years. I was bound to him by affection, and I had very many acts of kindness from him. When I saw him for the last

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time, prior to his leaving for Switzerland, he was still full of hope that a complete cure could be effected, with a further opportunity of service. His strong will and his faith had carried him so far. But it was not to be.
The country has lost a great men, and I mourn a dear friend. I know that I am expressing the feelings of us all in sending our deepest sympathy to his family, especially to Lady Cripps who shared so much of his work and cared for him so devotedly in his long illness.
Mr. Clement Davies: I had the high privilege and the true honour of knowing Stafford Cripps before either of us entered this House. We were both members of that unique and generous brotherhood, the Bar of England. There we knew, admired and respected him as a brilliant, persuasive and honourable advocate, as a profound lawyer and as a wise counsellor. We recognised that, had he chosen to remain in his profession, every office on the Bench was open to him. He would have added lustre to the just fame of the Judiciary. He chose otherwise.
He became a great Parliamentarian, an outstanding statesman, an ambassador—an Ambassador to Russia, an Ambassador to India, an ambassador on behalf of peace and better understanding among his fellow men, and, finally, he became a noted and courageous Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was endowed with many talents. He gave of those gifts freely and
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lavishly to the service of his country and, indeed, to the service of humanity.
We mourn today the passing of a fine Christian knight, a dauntless spirit, a devoted public servant, a noble character whose life, whose integrity, and whose work are an example and an inspiration to us all, whose shining faith never faltered in the face of difficulties, however mountainous. To his devoted wife and to his children, in deep sorrow, we tender our sincere sympathy.

BILL PRESENTED
  FAMILY ALLOWANCES AND NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL
  "to provide for increasing rates of allowances under the Family Allowances Act, 1945, and rates or amounts of contributions and benefits under the National Insurance Acts, 1946 to 1951; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Peake; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, Mr. James Stuart, Mr. Crookshank, Sir Walter Monckton and Mr. Turton; read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 86.]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings of the Committee on Housing [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  HOUSING BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.54 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  This Bill follows the general review of the finance of housing which the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in the debate on the Address in November last. The need for this review at this time arose primarily from two increases in the rate of interest on loans to local authorities which have brought the rate from 3 per cent. to 4¼ per cent. At that rate of 4¼ per cent., the local authorities are borrowing long-term money at a rate of interest which can be justified as being broadly in line with normal long-term rates. Nor is this in any way invalidated by the recent rise in the short-term Bank rate to 4 per cent., for there is no reason to suppose that the present rates of the Public Works Loan Board cannot properly be maintained.
  It would be quite inappropriate for me, in introducing this Bill, to launch into a general discussion of monetary policy even if I were equipped to do so, for this is a subject, as Members well know, where controversy may reach a remarkable degree of obscurity and even of bitterness, for these high economic disputes are often carried on today with all the acerbity and pedantry of medieval theologians. Therefore, whatever may be said of the arguments for or against the policy of monetary stringency to meet an inflationary situation, it is clear that this policy is pursued for strong and compelling reasons.
  It is not merely a piece of sadism or masochism by which we are torturing ourselves to no purpose, for if it succeeds it will be justified in every sphere of our national life. Nowhere can it be of more value than in the sphere of housing, for it will result, let us hope, in a reduction, or at least in a halt, in the increasing costs of house-building which have been such a malignant feature of recent housing history. When I am told, therefore—which, incidentally, is not true—that the increased rate of interest will
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  put so many shillings on the rent of the tenant, I would remind the House that if this monetary policy succeeds it will do just the opposite, for it will prevent that general increase in rent which higher costs must in some form or another eventually involve. It may even lead to a reduction of costs and to a corresponding reduction of rents.
  However, apart from this reason, it is obvious that an expanding housing programme can only be based upon a healthy national economy. If we cannot solve the urgent economic problems of the day, if we cannot deal with the question of the balance of payments, then good-bye to the whole housing drive—for even if the local loans on housing were reduced to 1 per cent. or less there would be no foreign exchange with which to buy timber, pulp and all the rest of it which go to make up the essentials of housing. Therefore, if this monetary policy can succeed in helping to avert national bankruptcy it will save not only the whole life of the country but also those social services of which housing today is perhaps the most important.
  While this policy is developing, and until it can prove fruitful, we cannot, I submit, disregard the situation created particularly as a result of a rise of interest rates. This rise of interest rates, as it affects the Public Works Loan Board, leads to one of the by-paths of the great economic forest which I described before, and into which I may perhaps be allowed to stray for a few moments. I know that it has been argued by some very talented Members of the House, including ex-Ministers, that so long as the Budget is balanced, both above and below the line, the local authorities ought not to pay any interest at all on their loans supplied by the central government.
  I think it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), who I do not see in his place today, who was the leading exponent of this view. It is quite true that when he was in the Treasury as a Minister he was never able to sell this idea to the Treasury. I read an account by one of the Parliamentary commentators of a great speech he made on the Budget, in which I read that he was to be known in the future as "the slogger." He never succeeded in slogging the Chancellor of

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  the Exchequer of his own Government on this matter.
  The argument, though possibly tenable in theory, is, therefore, somewhat irrevelant. In any case, like so many very clever arguments, it proves too much, because if it were true then it makes no difference whether the current rate of interest is 10 per cent., 5 per cent., 4 per cent., or any per cent. one likes to take. All this can be disregarded according to that theory and all the loans made by the central Government to the local authorities would be free of interest; but since no Government, not even that adorned by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North, has taken this line, I can see no reason why the local authorities should borrow at less than the appropriate long-term rate of interest.
  If they are to pay interest at all surely they ought to pay the appropriate rate of interest. There is a great deal to be said for and against family life, but if one is to have children, it is perhaps well that they should be legitimate.
  Mr. R. J. Mellish: As the right hon. Gentleman has made some caustic remarks about my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), would he be kind enough to let us know whether he intimated to my right hon. Friend that he was going to give us this knockabout turn?
  Mr. Macmillan: Yes. I intimated that to him just before this debate began, and he told me he would be present; but for some reason he is not.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I am very interested in the argument that it is inappropriate to give a subsidy by way of cost-free loan. I gather that the right hon. Gentleman says that in appropriate cases interest ought to be charged. Could he tell us what is the distinction in policy which he draws? When the Bank rate went up originally the Public Works Loan Board rate was raised, but when it went up a second time it was decided that it was unnecessary to raise the Public Works Loan Board rate.
  Mr. Macmillan: That is just the point I dealt with in the first part of my remarks. I said I thought it should be attuned to the long-term rate of gilt
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  edged, and I saw no reason to suppose—and I think the market today supports me in this view—that this rate of 4¼ per cent. is inappropriate to the long-term rate on the gilt edged market at the present time.
  We have to consider how the immediate burden of the housing costs should be distributed. In this matter of housing finance, there are three parties—the taxpayer, the ratepayer, and the tenants of the council houses; but if no other counterbalancing action were taken the burden of the increased costs would fall on the general body of ratepayers, although each council could, at their discretion, shift the burden by increasing the rents either of the tenants of new council houses or by spreading the necessary increase over the tenants of all council houses.
  I have heard it argued that those who live in subsidised council houses, especially new ones, have an unfair advantage over their neighbours. I have been much criticised in this matter. I have observed that this criticism is often made by armchair critics who are generally quite satisfactorily housed themselves; but in any case, so far as the many millions of our people who live in rent restricted houses are concerned, they surely have no right to point the finger of scorn at the tenants of council-subsidised houses. Until it is possible—as perhaps it may be when the supply of housing accommodation begins to become more nearly balanced with demand—to untangle the immense mess caused by the various rent restriction laws, these millions of people are, in a sense, subsidised at the expense of their private landlords. Therefore it is not for them to raise any objection against the subsidising of new council tenants by this machinery.
  Taking the broad view one has to consider everybody as a whole and I submit that this subsidy is broadly fair. To do the opposite—to impose the whole burden of the results of the increased cost of housing upon the tenants of the new council houses—would be out of proportion to what these new tenants ought to be asked to bear and out of relation to what the broad body of tenants are paying over the whole field. It is to avoid this result that this Bill has been introduced by the Government. Over six years

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  have passed since a housing subsidy Bill was introduced into this House, so I may perhaps be allowed to go into rather more detail than if this kind of Bill had been more frequent.
  I think it is important to recall to hon. Members the precise detail. From time to time periodic reviews have taken place between the Government and local authorities as to the need for revision, upward or downward, and these reviews have subsequently been laid before the House of Commons; but, in fact, there have been no changes in the standard rate. It is true that in 1949 some additional subsidies were introduced for certain special purposes, but the main structure of the plan and the amount of the standard housing subsidy has remained unchanged.
  There have of course, been great variations at the times when these reviews were made, both as to conditions and as to costs. This will become apparent when I explain to the House the principle upon which the subsidy was based then and is being maintained now.
  The purpose of the subsidy is a simple one. It is that houses should be provided for these new tenants at rents they can afford to pay and which may be regarded as reasonable in the prevailing conditions. To achieve this the deficit, after fixing what is a fair rent, has to be provided partly by Exchequer grant and partly out of the local rates, and it has always been, since the beginning of this system, in the proportion of three-quarters from the Exchequer and one-quarter from the local rates.
  This principle has been accepted as equitable ever since the war and I do not propose to alter it. Nor do I think that anyone who values the position of local government and its place in our national life would wish to see this proportion changed; for to do so would be to take away the sense of responsibility, and the actual responsibility and, therefore, the independence of the local authorities.
  A 100 per cent. Exchequer grant, as the House will readily see, would ultimately mean that my Department would have to undertake directly the tasks which are now entrusted to the 1,500 housing authorities up and down the country. At no point in my discussions with the representatives of the local authorities or with any other responsible person, so far as I know, in or out
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  of the House, has it ever been suggested to me that there should be any variation in the division of the burden.
  We come now to the question of how this deficit should be calculated. I venture to recall to Members the accepted procedure. The standard housing subsidy has always been based on the cost of what is called the "standard house" and this is taken as a plain three-bedroom house. My predecessors in office, whether Conservative or Socialist, regarded this as the most practicable arrangement in order to get a fair result—just taking that standard house instead of trying to get a minute allocation between all the different kinds of what I think are called "accommodation units." The local authorities have always accepted this and there has never been any quarrel about it.
  To fix what should be the amount of the subsidy, agreement has to be reached on certain premises. These are broadly three in number. First, there is the average capital cost of the notional house: second, the average cost of maintenance, and, third, what has to be taken as a notional rent.
  The rent has always meant, of course, the net rent, irrespective of rates, I venture to emphasise the word "notional," because for the purpose of the calculation of the subsidies we operate upon this notional basis. It is not a rent which is actually paid, necessarily, by any particular person in any particular house. Indeed, there may not be an individual who pays a notional rent, just as there may not be, in the calculation of the average height and weight of the population, any average man. But these fixed points have to be taken and must first be considered in order to lead to a fair conclusion of what the subsidy ought to be.
  In the year 1946 the capital cost was taken as £1,100, maintenance was taken as £7 8s. and the rent as 10s. There come the years that follow. Of course, in the first happy days, those happy days of 1945 onwards, when the first light of civilisation broke upon mankind, it was confidently expected that full employment, low interest rates and a steadily inflationary situation would soon result in a general fall of prices. It was therefore assumed, and indeed said, that at every stage forward in this pilgrimage to

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  Utopia a reduction of the subsidy would be possible.
  But, alas, the harsh facts of life have reasserted themselves and, in point of fact, every one of the three items in this notional equation have had continually to be moved upwards. At each successive review it had to be agreed with the local authorities that the capital costs had risen. In 1949 it was to £1,350 or more, and in 1951 to £1,500. At the review which has just been held, it was agreed, on the old calculation, that the cost of the notional house should be taken as £1,575. In the same way, the allowance for maintenance has risen from £7 8s. to what has been now agreed for the purpose of this calculation—£12.
  It will be abundantly clear to hon. Members from these figures that the only method by which an avoidance of an increased subsidy could have been justified at those intervening reviews, since the passing of the original Act, would have been that the third item, the notional rent, should also be considered as having risen. For it must hardly be conceivable that my predecessors would have wished that the whole additional cost, if that were not done, should fall upon the rates.
  It is quite clear what was their view because, speaking in the House, the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) seemed to accept a figure in 1949 of between 13s. and 14s. as the notional rent for the purpose of calculation. In 1950 the then Parliamentary Secretary accepted 14s. 3d., which, he said, was 10 per cent. of the average wages. By November, 1950, the same right hon. Gentleman allowed from 14s. to 15s., and in the review of May, 1951—that is, 11 months ago—the only basis upon which a refusal to raise the subsidy could possibly have been justified would have been to accept a notional rent for this purpose of 16s. These periodic rises in the notional rent were justified by my predecessor, and I believe rightly so, as having regard to the general rise in wages and the general rise in the price level. On the same principles, for the purpose of this calculation, we have taken 18s. as the notional rent.
  I thought it well to explain this procedure and this system once more to the House, because it is a long time since we first started it, and I think many hon. Members may have forgotten it, or,
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  indeed, may not even have been aware of these principles. It was clear to me, on first taking office, that a new review would be necessary in the summer of this year in any case, but, of course, owing to the rise in the interest rates, it became necessary to bring forward that review and to make it as soon as possible.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this part of the discussion may I ask him a question? Whenever I have spoken on this matter in the House I have always been able to give the House the relationship between housing costs and general costs. Is the right hon. Gentleman able to tell us today what is that relationship?
  Mr. Macmillan: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by costs?
  Mr. Bevan: The general rise in prices.
  Mr. Macmillan: I have given £1,575 as opposed to £1,500, and I am coming to some reductions which will be made in the calculations. Then there is the notional rent at 18s. and we have taken the maintenance at £12.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman has not followed my point. Probably it is my fault. Always, when there was a criticism of the rise in housing costs, I have been able to show, in the past, that the rise in the cost of houses was less than the rise in the wholesale index. Is the right hon. Gentleman able to tell us today what that relationship is?
  Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir, but I will try to give a precise calculation on the information made available to me. I think it is clear from the figures I have given, and from common knowledge, that these figures are related to the general rise in price levels which has taken place. I am coming to the savings on houses, which is another point, quite different from the method of calculation. I will come to it in a few moments.
  While I accept, as a premise, the £1,575 as the capital cost, calculated on the same principles as in the past, I have made this alteration. We hope that many of these houses will be built more cheaply. Of course, there will be special conditions in which they may be more expensive, but those are provided for in the subsidy arrangement, since we are taking, as we have always

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  done, a cost which includes not merely the building of the house but also the cost of land and the layout and those expensive items, water and sewerage, and the rest.
  I think we must recognise—for we cannot get away from it—that if housing development is to be carried out in the right places, it will become more expensive, because some of the easier sites and some of the more accessible sites have already been exhausted. Moreover, we have to consider the claims of agriculture, we have to consider the claims of amenities, we have to consider how best to preserve the assets of this small island—and surely the whole House is with me in that.
  I will say frankly, therefore, that in many cases, if we are to do that properly, we ought to face building on more difficult and more expensive sites. Even if it means a larger initial expenditure, that will be wisely laid out in the long run. That is on the sites and the choice of them, but I am hopeful that savings in the cost of building the house itself can be made—and indeed they are being made—by general co-operation.
  Mr. J. A. Sparks: How can that be done?
  Mr. Macmillan: I have therefore agreed with the local authority representatives after the fact-finding investigation, that the figure for the old design and old standard house should now be £1,575, but we have agreed, for the purpose of the subsidy, to assume a saving of £50. This is a modest deduction and I believe we can make more savings by more modern methods and by wiser design; but that figure is only for the purpose of the calculation, and we thought it was fair. I think it was agreed that it was fair. Perhaps it has been a little too generous to make a reduction of only £50.
  Like everything else I do, some will say it is too high and some will say it is too low. Some will complain that I am too generous and some that I am too mean, but, in the same way that the average maintenance of £12 may be a little too high in some areas or a little too low in others, the figure has been agreed as reasonable. I must re-emphasise that, in taking the notional rent: that figure is not, nor is it intended
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  to be, a precise rent to be charged to any particular person.
  The local authorities will fix the rents of their houses as they have always been at liberty—and, indeed, under an obligation—to do. They will take into account many factors in this decision, some of them general and some of them purely local. They may choose to average the rent in some cases between their housing estates, old and new; others may be unable or unwilling to do so. Some may prefer to make contributions from the rates over and above that which they are bound by statute to make; others may feel that is not possible. No doubt, flexibility in this, as in many methods, is right; but for the purpose of this calculation this rent is taken.
  Mr. Bevan: I am certain that all hon. Members would like to be quite clear about the calculation that the right hon. Gentleman has made. Do I understand him to say that he fixed his notional capital cost of a three-bedroom house at a certain figure and then assumed a reduction of £50 in that figure and then based his subsidy upon the reduced figure? If so, he is inflicting a capital cost upon the local authorities based on a high housing standard.
  Mr. Macmillan: This, if it is true, is being inflicted with their complete agreement, which is, I am informed, the greatest body of agreement ever reached between a Minister and representatives of the local authorities' associations. My Department could well have maintained that we ought to have deducted £100—perhaps even more; but we have agreed, and they have accepted—as, I think, a generous settlement—a reduction of £50 from what would have been the cost of the notional standard average house calculated on the old system.
  Mr. C. W. Gibson: If we are to assume a reduction of £50 or any other number of pounds in the notional capital cost of every house there must be some change in the house to be built. What changes in the structure of the house are assumed in arriving at this figure? That is very important.
  Mr. Macmillan: The changes are developments of the brilliant ideas and admirable designs set in motion by our predecessors. [Interruption.] I really cannot deal with both parties of the Opposition

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  at once. I am surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite come back for punishment on the housing question. I should have thought that they were tired of it. But we are ready for them.
  Mr. Bevan: A perfectly sensible question has been put, and the House wants enlightenment about it. The right hon. Gentleman should not throw such silly rhetoric in reprisal. What we want to know is this. What particular items in the notional house have been responsible for the reduction of £50 in the capital cost?
  Mr. Macmillan: I have given the answer. [HON MEMBERS: "No."] I have given the answer—the development of the designs, instituted by the former Minister of Local Government and Planning, to give the same amount of circulation space, the same Dudley standards, with less expenditure. I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Welling-borough (Mr. Lindgren) and his colleague for having started these admirable ideas.
  Now I will proceed to summarise the subsidy proposals in the Bill. The Exchequer contribution, the general standard amount, is increased from £16 10s. to £26 14s. Consequential or similar adjustments are proposed in the other subsidies. The subsidies for flats on expensive sites have been recalculated on precisely the same principles as before, crediting a notional rent of 21s. 6d., which is the same proportionate rise in the notional rent as in the last calculation. Then, of course, certain higher subsidies for houses in low rented areas and in heavily burdened areas will continue to be paid, as hon. Gentlemen know, at discretion.
  There are one or two other cases I ought to mention. The higher subsidy which was formerly available on all houses for members of the agricultural population was universal. I am now making it discretionary, because I am not satisfied that in every case this subsidy was wholly passed on, and it really could not be quite justified in the old form. Nevertheless, it will be continued for groups of houses in isolated areas wherever the rural authorities are put to larger expense in meeting these special requirements.
  The subsidy of £15 a year for 40 years is payable for houses for the agricultural
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  population built by persons other than local authorities. The Act of 1946 excluded from this arrangement cottages which are occupied under a contract of service. Clause 2 (1) of the Bill will withdraw this limitation. There is a similar prohibition against the making of reconditioning grants in respect of such houses, and subsection (2) of the same Clause withdraws this prohibition in respect of houses occupied by members of the agricultural population. I know that there are some people who do not like the contract of service system, but that really is another and much wider question. I cannot see why we should wish to deprive people who do live in such cottages from having good ones, new ones, or modern ones.
  The last of the subsidies to be mentioned is the extra subsidy for houses built on expensive sites—that is, sites on land costing £3,000 an acre or more. This was recalculated on a more generous basis assuming a density of 15 to the acre. It is right to say here that this is the only point in the subsidy proposals on which some of the representatives of the local authorities pressed me to go a little farther. Bearing in mind, as, I think, we all ought to, the importance of an admixture of houses with blocks of flats in this form of development—and the need for such an admixture has been generally accepted—the basis of this extra housing subsidy has now been adjusted to take account of these facts.
  Clauses 3 and 4 of the Bill deal with arrangements for the disposal of council houses—disposal covering both sale or lease.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: It seems to me that we are getting on rather quickly. Many of us are still wondering about the right hon. Gentleman's method for computing subsidy, and I think it is necessary for the House to understand all this at this stage before we pass over this matter. We really ought to know the figures if we are to make calculations of our own.
  Mr. Macmillan: I have given the answer to that already. It is raised from £7 8s. to £12, and the new calculation has been agreed between us and the local authorities.
  Clauses 3 and 4 of the Bill deal with the disposal of council houses. I cannot

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  in this matter claim to be introducing any new principle. I am not bringing in any new law, for the local authorities have always had, under the existing law, the power to dispose of their houses with the consent of the Minister, and until 1945 their applications for consent were dealt with in accordance with the statutory provisions.
  If there has been any new principle I think it has been introduced by our predecessors, when they announced as a matter of policy that they would not give consent to any such houses being sold or leased. Well, we disagree with this view. We think that where a tenant desires to purchase a house and the local authority desires to sell or lease it to him the two contracting parties should be allowed to carry out their desires, so long as they are upon appropriate terms and appropriate conditions.
  Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: This provision is not restricted only to council tenants. It is a provision that a house may be sold to anyone.
  Mr. Macmillan: No. I am coming to that. The hon. and learned Gentleman is quite wrong about that. [HON. MEMBERS: "As usual."] All I am doing is to decide to administer the law. Of course, it would not be sufficient merely to revert to the operation of the old law without having regard to the new conditions in the postwar world, which make it necessary to make certain new regulations; for the existing provisions in the Housing Acts must be amended; and that is what these Clauses do, because they require the local authority, if it sells any property, to obtain the best possible market price.
  I do not think it would be right that the local authority should be, as it were, a kind of profiteer in the scarcity value of the house, if it is to be sold at all. I think that would be unfair. Clause 3 will enable the local authority to sell the house with the consent of the Minister which may be given either generally in relation to a scheme or in relation to a particular set of houses.
  This power to sell at a reasonable price, however, on the one side, must be married by an equal provision on the other because it would be unfair to allow speculators to buy these houses at
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  a fair price and then to resell them later on at the scarcity price.
  Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: Would the Minister explain whether under the proposed freedom to sell such houses any limitation is to be laid down as to their purchase by people other than those living in them?
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: Would the Minister—
  Mr. Macmillan: Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to get to the end of what I am saying.
  The Clause provides that in making any such sale—this is to meet the first point—the local authority can limit the price at which the house may be resold, and it may limit the rent at which it may be let on lease during any period not exceeding four years from the date of the original contract. This rent will then, of course, become the standard rent for the purpose of the Rent Restriction Act.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels rose—
  Mr. Macmillan: It would really save a great deal of time if I could finish with this part of the Clause, and then any questions not dealt with I or my colleague will try to answer later.
  As I say, this rent would then become the standard rent. The Clause further provides that the local authority will have the right to buy back the house within the period of four years if the purchaser should wish to sell it.
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: Why four years?
  Mr. Macmillan: That seems a reasonable time in which to prevent the temptation of the profiteer or speculator and yet allow the purchaser to feel that he had some possibility of reselling his house within a reasonable time.
  If this statutory system should commend itself to the House, then a scheme to operate it will be discussed between myself and the representatives of the local authorities. What I have in mind in the regulations and scheme is to give them a wide discretion, to say that they may sell provided the price at which they sell safeguards their corporate financial interest as the local authority, on the one side, and provided it takes efficient measures against profiteering by people on the other side of the contract.

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  Quite apart from the sale or disposal of existing council houses to their tenants, the new provisions provide that the local authorities may build houses for immediate sale outside the subsidy arrangements. I am sure that this is a wise thing to do because in the development of some of these large estates it is really very important—and I think it is generally agreed to be important—to obtain a mixed development. I think this will help to do what we want to do in this way. I quite admit that the Opposition are opposed in principle to house ownership by individual owners and to municipalities playing any part in assisting house ownership.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: At the present time.
  Mr. Macmillan: I hope they will agree that it was right to make this kind of provision, and that, even in their view, when the time comes for what we now propose, it would be right and proper to have this provision to safeguard both sets of interest.
  Mr. Sparks: May I refer the right hon. Gentleman to one point which justifies us in opposing this proposal? He will realise that in built-up areas, where the housing shortage is acute, for the local authority to alienate the great majority of its existing council houses would only intensify its problem, because by doing that they would be unable to effect the transference of families from larger to smaller accommodation and thereby absorb people on their housing lists.
  Mr. Macmillan: I look forward to a great deal of discussion on this Clause at a later stage, and I recognise the hon. Gentleman as an expert in these matters.
  I can, perhaps, deal better with all the details at a later stage, but I want to emphasise that there is a great difference between laying down as a principle that a Minister will never agree to any such sale. I am not saying that I will agree to all of them. All I say is that I withdraw the general prohibition. In such cases where a claim was put forward by a local authority which seemed to me to be unwise it would be my duty—and my attention would be called to it by my officials—to give reasons why I did not think it was a scheme to which I should
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  give my consent. But that is entirely different from a general veto by the Minister on the rights of local authorities.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: If the Minister gave his general consent he would not be asked about the matter at all. While I am on my feet, would the right hon. Gentleman please come back to the question I asked before, and which he did not answer: to whom can these properties be sold? I indicated that the sale would not be limited to the tenants, and I would like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman if that is right. What is his authority for contradicting that statement?
  Mr. Macmillan: We do not propose to evict tenants from these houses and to sell them to somebody else. I think this can all be perfectly well dealt with, and will be dealt with, in the regulations. They will, of course, be sold to the existing tenants unless the hon. and learned Gentleman proposes to evict the tenants in order to sell the houses at a profit. That does not seem to me to be a good plan.
  Mr. Gibson: The Bill does something more than merely remove the veto; it alters the law. It says that the local authorities must get the best price possible. Does the Minister visualise the houses being sold by the local authorities at less than the actual cost to themselves?
  Mr. Macmillan: No, I do not, and that I will deal with in the regulations. I think the words I used were that they should cover and protect the financial interest of the local authority in every respect, but that they should not allow them to be profiteers. In the same way, the purchaser who bought with the advantage of a fair price, with some fixed relation, perhaps, to the rental value, should not be allowed to profiteer in the scarcity market. I think that is as far as I might be asked to go in detail.
  There are one or two things I want to say of a general character. This Bill only deals with part of the mechanism of the housing programme and does not pretend to introduce any new principle or to create any new organisation. Therefore, I shall not deal with the general housing situation, which, no doubt, there will be many other opportunities to debate. What the provisions of the Bill seek to do is to make it possible on the financial side for the municipal housing

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  programme to be continued without undue burden on the tenants or the rates.
  I do not think there is really any disagreement about that. Had we been continuously in office since 1945 we might have organised the housing programme on a different principle. But I think it is wise to take things as one finds them, and to make that rapid progress which I hope to make I much prefer to preserve a substantial continuity in the existing arrangements.
  After all, the need for more houses is apparent to anyone with the slightest knowledge of the condition of the people. But it is not only a social problem; it is not only a human problem. It is an economic problem of the highest importance, for an increase in housing is essential for the re-deployment of our industry, for re-armament, for export and for our whole economic survival. In my Department we are continually being asked for new housing accommodation, for workers for these new factories or installations; they come from the aircraft industry, from the Royal Ordnance factories, and especially to supply more houses for miners. The same issue arises in agriculture, to encourage home food production.
  But, of course, throughout the whole industrial field, apart from these special cases, this is true, for modern industrial production disperses work to a remarkable degree in sub-contracts of all kinds, and there is no sizeable place in the country which may not have to man-up and play its part in re-armament or the export drive. In this age it is of vital importance to be able to switch from the production of one line of goods to another, and it is not always possible to bring the work to the workers.
  Thus, quite apart from any other consideration we need more houses—apart from the home and social considerations which appeal to us all so strongly—as part of our economic industrial effort. We need a margin of free accommodation in many areas of the country and we must not slacken until we can achieve it. This, I should have thought, was common ground between us all.
  What divides the House is sometimes whether more new houses can be secured, in present circumstances, than we have been able to secure in past years. Hon.
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  Gentlemen opposite—and I certainly respect their sincerity—believed that the utmost practicable target, in view of the other pressures upon the economy, was something of the order of 200,000 houses a year. Yet, curiously enough, in the very midst of this economy, alleged to be so over-strained that it could not go beyond that figure, they had little hesitation in introducing a re-armament programme of £4,700 million. That seemed to me a very inconsistent reading of the economic situation. Of course, in face of the re-armament campaign, and, above all, in face of the balance of payments crisis we have a very grave situation to face perhaps more difficult than those of our predecessors.
  I want to make only two final points to meet criticisms which I sometimes read or hear of, not so much in this House perhaps as out of it. First, do not let us suppose a production of 300,000 houses of a year, even if we were able to reach it, would signify that we were making some abnormal effort in the sphere of housing. Why, we regularly reached that production and exceeded it in the years before the war for an appreciably smaller population, and accompanied at that time with unrestricted work on repair, improvement and conversion. Our aims, therefore, are not unduly ambitious, and the sights would have to be raised much further before we could be accused of singling out housing for some special favour or undue emphasis.
  On the other hand I must admit that we cannot ask for some special first-cut of the cake or a unique slice of the available resources, and then just hand it over to housing to do all that we can do. We have to achieve our end by all kinds of different means—by pinching and scraping, if you like; by making deft use of such material as we can find or such substitutes as come to hand, by the speedy use of opportunities between the peaks of over-demand and over-intensity, by working faster, by getting out at any rate of the idea that there is a limited cake to be baked in this world of effort and energy and that if somebody takes a larger slice here somebody else there automatically has a smaller slice for another purpose. That is not true.
  We believe that given the inducements greater productivity can be produced to satisfy more than one need and to play

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  its role over the whole field. So I have tried to get away from the idea of the fixed "ceiling," of the fixed minimum, the clamped-down, narrowing "ceiling" which is so distressing to those who have to work it, and to give people the idea that the more effort they make, the harder they work, the better they go at it, the more they will be asked to do and the more contribution they will be able to provide to this great problem.
  I say, in this respect that, whilst we must, of course, have a broad and general strategy under which we are to work, we must have these experiments towards freedom. At any rate, the housing drive must go forward, and I venture to commend this Bill—the details of which we can discuss further at the appropriate stage—to the House of Commons as of value, and, indeed, as an indispensable contribution to the common purpose that we have in mind.
  4.46 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: This Bill, with something good in Clause 1 and rank Toryism in Clause 2, is a sign of the conflict in the Conservative Party between good and evil, and in the battle of the party opposite the Minister for Housing and Local Government is clearly in the "middle way." No doubt he remembers the last French elections when so many candidates, to avoid being called extremists, called themselves "Centre," and when many of them went further than that and claimed to be "Extreme Centre."
  I found the right hon. Gentleman's speech in one important matter, which I shall deal with first, extremely disappointing. There was no sign that he was ready to apologise to the House for misleading us last month, on 19th February, when, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop), who asked whether
  "the increase in the housing subsidy is guaranteed … to cover the whole increased cost to local housing authorities of the new rate of interest."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th February, 1952; Vol. 496, c. 26.]
  he said "Yes." Now, of course, it does not.
  Let us take a real house, not a notional house. With the result of the Government's dear money policy the cost of
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  providing one council house—just one—has, in many cases, risen by £1,000. It is that sum which is the difference in the loan repayments at 3 per cent. and at 4¼ per cent. of a loan of £1,600, which is the average price of a three-bedroom house being built at this moment in the South.
  I can work it the other way quite easily. If we say that a loan of £16,500 is needed for an estate of 10 houses, the interest at 3 per cent. amounts to just over £19,000, but at 4¼ per cent. it amounts to just over £30,000, which is £11,000 difference, or over £1,000 per house. This extra £1,000 interest per house will be only partially covered by the extra subsidy; that is to say, £612 from the Exchequer and £204 from the rate contribution, leaving nearly £200 to be found either from the rates or from the Housing Revenue Account or the new tenants.
  Let me give an example from the City of Lincoln, which is building about 300 houses a year at a cost of £1,600 each, and had hoped to afford to build at least as many as that every year. The additional cost to the citizens of this Government's policy is heavy. In the first year, on 300 houses, the increased rate subsidy of £1,020, plus the increase to be found by additional rates or additional rents of another £800, is £1,820. The next year, that figure is doubled, if they still build 300 houses; it is £3,640, and so on every year as they build 300 houses.
  So, owing to the Government's deliberate policy, rates and rents must go up, and if this Government is still in power in four years' time, which heaven forbid, in the fourth year, if they continue building these 300 houses a year, the citizens will have to find over £7,000 in addition. In the town halls today and in the country generally tomorrow, the question is asked: Is that how the Conservatives keep down the cost of living?
  Mr. H. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman accuses me of misleading the House of Commons, which I accept from him but would not accept from anybody else. His statement is completely inaccurate and mine was completely accurate. So far as the rate of interest itself is concerned, it is covered by the housing subsidies under this Bill. Of course, there are cases which may arise, and which must arise, which are not related to the

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  rise in the rate of interest. My promise was related precisely to the cost of interest, and let me say that my argument will, I think, prove that the Government's policy will reduce the rise of prices which has gone on during the late Government's period of office from £1,000 to £1,520.
  Mr. de Freitas: The exact point that I am making is that this is a rise in cost as the result of the Government's increase in the rate of interest. I have just quoted the figures.
  Mr. Macmillan: False figures.
  Mr. de Freitas: As the right hon. Gentleman says that I am misleading the House, I ask him to get his Parliamentary Secretary and officials to work it out. Let me give the figures again. At 3 per cent. it is just over £19,000 for 10 houses, and at 4¼ per cent. it is £30,000, a difference of £11,000. It is £1,000 extra for every house, and I quoted the figures for a city which hopes to build 300 houses a year.
  Mr. Peter Roberts rose—
  Mr. de Freitas: The right hon. Gentleman took rather longer than he might have done because of interruptions; there are so many hon. Members on both sides of the House who want to speak that I hope that I may be allowed to make my case.
  Mr. Roberts: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that on a £1,500 house, the price is now to be £2,500 in view of the extra £1,000 he talks about?
  Mr. de Freitas: I tried to put the matter slowly and simply. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is all wrong."] If any hon. Member can prove I am wrong, I shall be delighted to acknowledge it. At present, the case is that as a result of this Government's policy the cost will go up every single year, on the figures I have quoted.
  Lieut.-Colonel Walter Elliot: Would the hon. Gentleman answer the question asked by my hon. Friend?
  Mr. de Freitas: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will repeat his question.
  Mr. Roberts: The question I am asking is this: When the hon. Member says that the price is going up by £1,000 a
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  house, is he suggesting that a house which previously cost £1,500 will now cost £2,500?
  Mr. de Freitas: I am quoting the interest rates; the difference over 60 years on 3 per cent. and 4¼ per cent. Surely I have made my point. It is a difference of over £1,000 per house. I was quoting a £1,600 house and that if the hon. Member works it out, he will find that I am correct. It does not mean that it costs £2,600 at once; it is over the long period of a 60-year loan.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: If the hon. Gentleman took a £1,800 house, he would get even a better figure. He is getting a figure on a basis never accepted previously.
  Mr. de Freitas: I do not want to get unduly parochial, but I shall be delighted to see that in my local paper, because the cost of a house there is £1,600 built by a Conservative council, and they are the people from whom I got these figures.
  Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman says that I misled the House. That is absolutely untrue. I applied exactly the same process of calculation as has always been applied. Of course, some houses cost less and some more. In fixing the subsidy, we always base ourselves on the average and, broadly speaking, any increase of burden which comes along from the increase in the rate of interest is met by the housing subsidy.
  Mr. de Freitas: The right hon. Gentleman accused me of false figures, and I accused him of misleading the House. Shall we leave it at that, and get on with the debate?
  Mr. Ian Horobin rose—
  Mr. de Freitas: There are many hon. Members who want to speak.
  This enormous rate of interest imposed by the Government will have to be paid by rent and rate increases, and there is no way of getting out of that. The Government have no excuse for this at all. I wonder just how much the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues in the Cabinet understood of the repercussions on local government when the Cabinet approved the raising of the rate to 4¼ per cent. Thoughts of local government finance and thoughts of the effect on the pockets of

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  payers of rates and rents do not usually come to the mind of those who have never served on a local authority. I do not believe that any Member of the Cabinet has ever served on a local authority which is a very important point. How different it was with the last Government.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren), who is to reply to the debate for the Opposition, has just got himself re-elected to the Hertfordshire County Council because he finds there is not enough to do in this House with a Government which has so little legislation. I do not think that he would claim that the sweeping county council election victory was in any way due to the financial policy of the Government, nor would I claim that next month's successes in the borough council elections will be due to their financial policy, because the effects will not be felt by the people for a long time. Their policy is a delayed action bomb planted in the cellars of the town halls. When councillors realise what this raising of the rate of interest means, they will see what the result will be.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that he saw no reason to suppose that the present Public Works Loan Board rate would have to be raised. I would like this assurance from him: Can the Government guarantee that should it turn out that that rate has to be raised, we will have an increase in the subsidies? That is a fair question. Since he told us that it is unlikely, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, earlier, "Not at present," I would like to know from the Government when they will guarantee to increase the subsidies if the rate is raised.
  As to the rates of subsidy and the other figures in Clause 1, when we come to the Committee stage we should consider whether, for instance, the £8 in subsection (3) is really enough for maintenance because, as the right hon. Gentleman has said on many occasions, maintenance is very important. We should also consider the desirability of following the practice of Scotland in having increased subsidies for larger houses. Perhaps we have nothing to learn from Scotland in this respect, perhaps we have, but we should certainly consider the matter.
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  We should also consider a special rate of subsidy for houses for old people. Can we not solve the problem of the old couple with a grown-up family who go on living in their own house although they no longer need one with three bedrooms? If we could vary the subsidies and thus encourage the council to build those people a small bungalow with one or two bedrooms, and to buy their house at a proper value, it would help the family with two or three children to move in.
  All over the country there are elderly couples living in houses too large for them to keep up, who no longer want to live in them but have to stay because there is nowhere else to go. At the same time, in Committee, in discussing the rates of contribution we might consider the fact that building costs in the south are higher than in the north. It is worth considering whether the subsidy should be weighted to take account of that.
  When the Minister came to my constituency for an understandable reason during the Election, he said, "We shall redeem the pledge to build 300,000 houses as a minimum." He talked so fluently on housing that I took two bets. The first was that if we lost the Election he would be the Minister in charge of housing. I won that bet. The second was that he could not build 300,000 real houses in one year without cutting into the other building programme. The Conservative Election slogan in many places was, "Turn your hopes into homes." I hope I lose my bet about the 300,000 houses minimum—
  Mr. H. Macmillan: You will.
  Mr. de Freitas: I hope I shall, if the right hon. Gentleman can build them without so lowering the standard as to make a mockery of modern living conditions and without cutting into the building of factories and schools and Defence, and without changing the priority system by which, on the whole, houses go to those in the greatest need.
  Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Does the hon. Gentleman consider the Dudley Committee standard a mockery standard?
  Mr. de Freitas: I would not consider that a mockery standard. If the Minister can get the houses without those changes I have mentioned, he will deserve

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  credit, but let me take one point at a time.
  On standards, we have had warnings from my right hon. Friends the Members for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) and Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), and we had a warning in "The Times" in November that the present stringencies do not justify the building of houses by anyone of a quality which the nation will come to regret 20 years hence. That was a clear reference to the jerrybuilt rubbish turned out in the '30's. I am jealous of the reputation of the right hon. Gentleman in 20 years' time when he will be in the House of Lords.
  On the danger of the cuts in schools and factories and defence, the right hon. Gentleman must not mortgage the future just to try to keep one Conservative promise. Let him look at what his colleagues have done, and let him be encouraged by there being safety in numbers in this respect. I beg him to remember the danger of selling council houses and thus tampering with the system of priorities in allotting houses.
  I am told that in Dublin the Irish solve many of the difficulties of allotting houses by putting names in a hat and drawing them out. It is certainly a sporting approach to the problem. Last Tuesday I heard Monolulu describe the Prime Minister as twice as sporting as his horse, but it made me wonder what would have, been the solution to this if the Prime Minister had taken over housing as he has transport. Speaking for myself, I prefer to both those systems of lottery and ladder the system of priorities and fair shares and the queue. That is why we do not like the selling of houses referred to in Clause 3.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale has said that the language of Socialism is the language of priorities. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to talk about applying the law. We are not, of course, against selling council houses as such, but we are certainly against selling them at the present time. That is what we have said. That has been the policy which we have announced on more than one occasion. To sell houses at the present time is straight Conservativism, giving the advantage to the strong man who seizes the ladder—to use the phrase of the Prime
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  Minister—rather than the other one who is waiting his turn in the queue.
  During the Election the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government wrote in "The People" of the injustice which could be inflicted on a soldier wounded in Korea if he were not allowed to buy a council house. I wonder how much comfort it is to that returned soldier to find that the Wallasey Town Council wants him to pay over £3 per week at the old rate—and, of course, they would be considerably higher now as a result of the second rise in the rate—to buy a council house.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Ernest Marples): As I am to reply, would the hon. Gentleman be kind enough to give me the actual quotation?
  Mr. de Freitas: Yes, I will pass it across the Table in a moment.
  I mention this because the right hon. Gentleman sought to put into our mouths the statement that we were against any houses being owned by the tenants. That is nonsense. Today, as a result of six years of Labour rule, it is probable that more people own their houses than ever before, and there are certainly between four million and five million houses occupied by their owners. A substantial number of these come on the market for sale each year to be bought by people who can afford to do so.
  The hon. Gentleman argued that they would only be sold to the tenants, not to anyone on the housing list. The implication is that no one on the housing list is worse off, but that ignores the fact that, as the years pass, there are a fair number of removals from council houses and, after removal or death, in the ordinary way a vacant council house comes back to the council and can be let to somebody on their list who is in need.
  As I understood the Conservative Election manifesto pledge, it was that there would be no reduction in the number of houses and flats built to let. They can keep that pledge and reduce the pool of houses available by selling them off at the other end. The fact is that the present Government policy appears to be designed deliberately to induce local authorities to do so, because they are given every incentive, through the increased loan rate, to build the bare minimum of the cheapest

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  houses and to sell off as many as possible of those already built.
  Therefore, if we cannot alter the policy of the Government to sell council houses at this time, the least we can do is to examine this Clause carefully in Committee. We must see whether we cannot do something to lessen the mischief which will be caused. Perhaps we could extend the period of control to eight years. Perhaps we could make the restrictions obligatory and not permissive. Perhaps the houses, when resold, should be sold only to the local authority and not on the market. Perhaps, if a house is sold by the council, its new owner should be prevented from letting it to someone not approved by the local authority, so that there would be a check on the local authority list.
  As the Minister can well imagine, Clause 2, which is considered on this side of the House to be rank Toryism, will be strongly opposed, especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch), and his Friends from the rural areas. He will be supported by all of us, and we hope that the Minister will think again before increasing the number of tied cottages. Farm workers throughout the country are indignant about it. I have had more than one letter of protest from farm workers, and the latest one I had this morning was from a Lancashire Branch of the Agricultural Workers' Union.
  Their indignation arises from the fact that these proposed subsidies or grants of public money are to be given to private owners to increase what has been a great social injustice in the countryside for many years, namely, the tied cottage. The farm worker must have a good house, and about that we are all agreed. The right hon. Gentleman spoke as though we did not agree with that. But why cannot the farmer grant his worker a tenancy and qualify for a grant of public money in the ordinary way, so that the farm worker can get some protection from the Rent Restrictions Act?
  Judging from interruptions in the speech of the Minister, there are a number of my hon. Friends who wish to speak, and as we have to stop at 10 o'clock I will only detain the House for a few moments longer. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary and those hon.
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  Members who have taunted me about the figures to check them carefully and see if they are absolutely correct. I cannot say that we like this Bill, but it has some good in it. Therefore, we shall not divide the House on it but we shall let it through, hoping to improve it considerably in Committee and, above all, remove Clause 2 entirely.
  5.12 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Jenkins: This being the first time that I have had the pleasure of addressing the House, I would ask for the indulgence which is usually given with such courtesy to a Member who is making his maiden speech, even on a controversial Bill. I may need more of the indulgence of the House than is usually given, because although I shall endeavour to steer clear of party politics and be unprovocative I may have to touch on some controversial issues.
  I did not intend to follow the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) in what he said, but I should like to comment on his remarks that no member of the Cabinet had ever served on a local authority and because of that they know nothing about the problem of housing. I feel that I must correct the hon. Gentleman and support my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
  The hon. Member for Lincoln said the Minister was wrong when he argued that the amount of money he was providing in additional subsidies covered the additional cost consequent upon the increased interest charges for loans from the Public Works Loan Board. I have been a member of a local authority, both county and borough, and I have checked those figures most carefully. Let me assure the hon. Member that he is entirely wrong and the Minister completely right. It may be that the hon. Member for Lincoln, as explained by the Minister, was thinking of some houses in his area where the charge is greater, but overall throughout the whole country the position is as the Minister himself said, and one figure does, in fact, balance the other.
  My one excuse for speaking today is that as long as five years ago I played a minor point in focusing public attention on the question of selling houses to the

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  sitting tenants. I should like first of all to refer to the only objections I have heard about the scheme apart from those uttered on the other side of the House today. One is a letter received by borough councils and housing authorities from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) when he was Minister of Health.
  He was replying to a request in 1947 from local authorities for permission to sell houses. A large number of local authorities in this country had asked the right hon. Gentleman for permission, and the officers of his Department, directed presumably by the right hon. Gentleman, replied in this strain on 9th October, 1947:
  "I am directed by the Minister to refer to your letter and to state that in view of the importance of ensuring that as many houses as possible are available for letting, it is not in accordance with the present Government's policy that local authorities should dispose of their houses except in very special circumstances. The Council's proposals to sell cottages to such of the present tenants as may desire to purchase the houses in which they live is not regarded as exceptional, and the Minister is therefore unable to give the consent required."
  That point has been made this afternoon, but I suggest that the people who, in fact, desire to buy their own houses and are council tenants are not the people who are going to move out of those premises. Therefore, there will not be any vacancies to be filled from the housing list through people buying their own houses. As I said in 1947, that seems a very thin reason for denying the right to people who desire to buy their own houses, and which are at present owned by a council.
  The only other objection I have heard—and I have been involved nearly five years in the consideration of this matter—is that it would create slums. It is argued that if a council permitted tenants to buy their own houses there would be mixed ownership and it would lead to slums. The fact is that nothing is further from the truth. There is mixed ownership in most estates throughout the country, and incidentally it might be that when a man owns his house he will decorate it in such a way that it will put the council tenant next door to shame.
  I want to turn briefly to the question of the advantages of selling these houses to the tenants. The hon. Member for Lincoln said that the party opposite had
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  no objection to selling houses to the tenants except that it was untimely now. To be in possession of one's own house is one of the finest things for any man or family in this country.
  But there is another point. I doubt very much whether some Members of this House know that a council tenant can be given one week's notice to clear out and has no recourse to the courts. That power is rarely exercised but, in fact, a council tenant can be given that short notice, and council tenants know it can be done. The great benefit to the tenant in buying his own house would be that he would be gaining security of tenure.
  Furthermore, throughout the country, in the past five or six years, council rents have advanced from 2s. to 10s. a week. There is the fear in the minds of some of the less well off people in this country that the rents of council houses will be increased again as costs advance, but if tenants are allowed to buy their own houses they know that what they are paying out per week will be for their own house and that will be the end of the story.
  May I point out to the House the advantages of this scheme to the local authorities and to the State? There are 800,000 pre-war houses owned in this country by local authorities, and most of them are the object of subsidies paid by the local authority and by the State. If one of these houses were sold there would, in fact, be an end to Exchequer and local authority grants for that house. If we take the optimum figure as 800,000 houses, that would effect a £10 million saving in subsidies which the Minister could apply, if he were allowed by the Chancellor and the Treasury, to help to meet the additional housing subsidies he is going to give under the present Bill.
  Not only would there be savings in that way, but there would also be a substantial capital profit. From what the Minister has said today, he is not going to allow local authorities to profiteer but he is also not going to allow them to sell houses too cheaply. There is bound to be on the sale of any house a substantial capital profit, some of which could go to the State in repayment of the subsidy payments and some to the local authority.

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  There would be a very great saving in the cost of rent collection, a very important matter these days when local authority wages and salaries are rising. The Minister mentioned that some local authorities use, in addition to the subsidies, money from the housing revenue account to reduce the rents on other houses. Where that is occurring there would be a substantial saving to the rates apart from the housing revenue account. There would also be a saving in overhead charges and a reduction in the supervisory staff for repairs and maintenance.
  There is nothing new in the principle of the Bill. The powers to sell council houses are contained in Clause 79 of the Housing Act, 1936, and in previous Acts of Parliament. There is nothing new in the practice of selling council houses. Before the war Southport, Wolverhampton, Cambridge, Birmingham and many other local authorities were selling houses.
  There is nothing new about the working classes owning their own houses. Of the four million houses built between the wars approximately three million were built by private enterprise, mostly for sale, and the average rateable value of the three million was 10s a week.
  There is nothing new in local authorities advancing money to those wishing to purchase houses from private builders. The Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, 1890, allowed local authorities to loan money up to the value of a £1,200 house. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale, in his Building Materials and Housing Act, 1945, increased the figures to £1,500, and in the Housing Act, 1949, he increased the limit to £5,000. There is thus nothing new in local authorities lending money for housing. There is an interesting aspect of the raising of the limit to £5,000. I doubt very much whether many people in the lower income groups would pay £5,000 for a house.
  I wish to give the House a concrete instance of how this might work. It is an instance from a London borough relating to houses built under the 1919 and 1923 Acts. The houses were very expensive, being twice as dear as such houses were in the 30's. The average cost of the five and six-bedroomed houses was £1,159. The outstanding debt per house
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  is £754, that being the cost to the local authority. The average weekly rent is £1 0s. 5d.
  Should he so desire, it is possible for the Minister merely to say, "You may sell it for £754." That would mean that the rate subsidy paid up to the time it was stopped would be lost to the Exchequer. On the other hand, if the Minister said, "You can sell for £1,200," under the rate of interest of the Public Works Loan Board today it would only be necessary for the tenant to repay over 30 years at the rate of £1 8s. 2d. a week. I have obtained these figures from the Town Hall and had them checked very thoroughly.
  With regard to capital profit, these days there is a great shortage of cash for all purposes, and the Government are trying to retrench and cut down expenditure. If the council were allowed to sell a house for £1,200 there would be a capital profit of £41 on the original cost and a capital profit of £446 on the net cost today. If the council were allowed to sell a five or six-bedroom house for £1,500 there would be on the net cost of the house a profit of £746, which could go either to the State or to the local authority.
  The conclusion one must reach about this is that when council houses are sold to sitting tenants the State makes a profit in some way or another, the local authority cuts its overheads and the tenant becomes an owner-occupier. What is new in the Bill is that my right hon. Friend is prepared to give his sanction to the proposal, whereas the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, when Minister of Health, refused to do so on every occasion.
  Furthermore, now that there is a shortage of houses Section 79 of the Housing Act, 1936, is to be amended so that councils shall not be allowed to profiteer because of scarcity nor be permitted to sell a house under its real value. If the principle is conceded—it has been done by the late Government and by the hon. Member for Lincoln today—that a person may be able to build his own house and it is admitted that it is lawful to purchase a house from a private individual for one's own occupation, surely it is merely a logical extension of those two fundamental freedoms to allow a

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  family renting a council house to purchase the freehold, particularly as that enables the annual expenditure of public money on subsidies to be reduced by anything up to £10 million a year.
  This is a permissive Bill. Many local authorities may not wish to implement it. Incidentally, at present many local authorities are not carrying out the wishes of my right hon. Friend about the granting of building licences to those who wish to erect their own houses now. The Division which I represent is one of the most recalcitrant in London in this respect.
  No doubt the Bill will be described as revolutionary by some and reactionary by others, but the action of my right hon. Friend in bringing the Bill before the House is statesmanlike, there being an overwhelming balance of advantage to the tenant, the local authority and the State, and the Bill should be supported by both sides of the House.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: It falls to me to discharge the very pleasant duty of congratulating the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins) upon his maiden speech. He spoke with very great facility for one making his first speech in this House, and gave evidence of a very great deal of knowledge and experience of local government administration. Being a maiden speech, it suffered under the disability, which was obvious to the hon. Member, that he had to be unprovocative and non-controversial. If the most interesting speech to which we have listened is the hon. Member's estimate of those two qualities, we shall look forward to hearing further contributions from him.
  The Minister introduced the Bill today in a speech, if I may be allowed to say so without appearing to be condescending, of very great lucidity. I think he was quite right in taking advantage of this occasion to explain once more to the House of Commons the principles on which housing subsidies have been granted since 1945. His lucidity was all the more attractive because it enabled us to follow some of his worse shortcomings rather better than if he had been more blurred in his speech. I propose to address myself to those shortcomings.
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  The right hon. Gentleman said that he was following the principles which the Government of 1945–50 had laid down. I want to ask him one or two questions in order to elucidate the situation. The subsidies have been reviewed from year to year, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, and in the course of discussions with the local authorities the notional rent of 10s. for the urban house and 7s. 6d. for the rural house had obviously to be departed from because of a general rise in prices. Nevertheless, it was always my contention, accepted by the local authority associations, that the relationship between the net rent in subsequent years and wages was the same as in 1945 and that, therefore, the burden upon the tenant had not increased.
  The right hon. Gentleman, I gather, has followed the same principles today, but he let fall some words which worried me quite a bit. He said that he had discharged his promise to make good the increase in the rates of interest but not the other increases. That is a very curious statement. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would like to correct it now, because if that statement stands he confesses to a fundamental departure from the original principles upon which the subsidies were based.
  Mr. H. Macmillan indicated dissent.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but Members on all sides will agree that it was a point of substance, because whenever the subsidies were reviewed previously they took into account not only the interest rates to local authorities, but the general overall costs of the house. The reason why the subsidies were not increased before was because the movement in net rent obeyed the general movement in increased earnings. But of course, the time was rapidly approaching when that would no longer be the case and when a further review of housing subsidies would have produced an increase in the subsidy independently of any increase in the interest rates.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: What I tried to say was that we had followed exactly the same principles as in the previous review with regard to all the matters that came into review—the notional cost of building the house, the maintenance cost, and the rent—with the same principles in mind

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  as the right hon. Gentleman quotes. I tried to deal with those things in the ordinary way. Then there was the increase which was due only to a change in monetary factors. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that the broad result is that any other changes have been dealt with in the normal way, and the changes due to monetary changes have been dealt with specially.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman may wish to correct the impression be has given, but if he reads HANSARD he will see that there fell from his lips words which had no other interpretation than that all he considered he was under an obligation to do was to make good by increased subsidy the increased rate of interest, and not the other increase. If he wishes to correct it, I certainly would accept it.
  Mr. Macmillan: I will look up what I said, but I think I know what I said.
  Mr. Bevan: Oh, no.
  Mr. Macmillan: It is a complicated question but I certainly did not intend to depart from what I tried to make clear and from what had, naturally to be prepared. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that, at any rate, that is the result.
  The broad principle goes on as before. We have tried to make this special correction to deal with the special case of the monetary changes. It is quite true that there were monetary changes before. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that they were not sufficient really to cancel out other considerations and, therefore, there has not got to be any change in the subsidies.
  I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that what I have said is correct and that it certainly has been accepted by the broad body of public opinion in the local authorities. At any rate, I am grateful, because considering how violently I have been attacked from the other point of view for being so generous, it is a great help to be accused occasionally of a little meanness.
  Mr. Bevan: I do not quite understand what the right hon. Gentleman means by his last statement. Do I understand him to say, therefore, that in his view, if there
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  had been no increase in interest rates, there was no case for increased subsidies?
  Mr. Macmillan: No.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman has now got himself into a tangle.
  Mr. Macmillan indicated dissent.
  Mr. Bevan: What the right hon. Gentleman has said is this: That he has followed all the principles that were followed before, and he contends that the increased subsidy takes care of the increased cost of money to the local authority, and that is all.
  Mr. Macmillan indicated dissent.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman said that he considers he has discharged his obligation. I come back, therefore, to my question again. If there had been no increase in the cost of money to the local authority, would the right hon. Gentleman now say that he considers there would have been no case for an increased subsidy?
  Mr. Macmillan: A review would have been held in May of this year and we would have agreed whether the subsidy should go up or down.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman is dodging in a most ungainly fashion, because what we on this side are trying to find out—and hon. Members opposite should be equally interested—is whether all the precedents have in fact been followed in this case, because I held the view, as I have just said, that the time was rapidly approaching when an increased subsidy to the local authorities would flow from the increased cost of building independently of any increase in the cost of money.
  What the right hon. Gentleman has done is to deny any increase in the housing subsidy due to increased costs and to make good only the increase in the cost of money. That is what he has done, and what he has tried to do in his speech is to conceal that fact. But he made a very much more serious departure than that, and I hope hon. Members opposite will follow me in this matter because they will hear about it a lot more in the next local government elections.
  What has the right hon. Gentleman said? He has said that, as heretofore, he accepted a notional house—I quite agree

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  with him, that is the most sensible course to follow. One cannot take a particular house; one has to take the average cost of the three-bedroom house for the country as a whole—and that on that he fixed the subsidy. What we always did was to agree with the local authorities what was the average cost of the three-bedroom house throughout the country, and on that figure the subsidy was based.
  In other words, the local authorities had been permitted to build whatever type of house they wished, under the guidance of the Central Housing Committee and the Minister, but the design of the house, the size of the house, was within the local authority's discretion on housing manual standards. The average house, therefore, was an emergent, a consequence of what the local authorities had done themselves by free action and the central Government accepted the responsibility of subsidising the result.
  But the right hon. Gentleman has reversed the process. It is a principle of the utmost danger, undermining the self-government of local authorities by financial sanctions. He said, "I will take the notional house,"—it is very difficult to follow all his figures but I thought he said it would cost £1,575—"then I will reduce that figure by £50 in respect of the house which I think the local authorities ought to build."
  Mr. H. Nicholls: I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman is out of touch with local authorities. There is no question at all of the Minister at the centre forcing local authorities to build smaller and cheaper houses. That is their intention and whilst the notional figure in past years would have been £1,575 I suggest that the real figure would be much more than the £50 which has been mentioned.
  Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member ought not to abuse the courtesy afforded him by my giving way, because all he did was to adduce a perfectly irrelevant argument. I am dealing, not with what the local authorities will do, but with what the Minister has done. What he has done is to base his subsidy figure on a standard of housing to which he thinks local authorities ought to build. He jeered at my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) and said that my right hon. Friend had started these houses. But my right hon. Friend never at any time put
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  the financial compulsion on local authorities to build them. That is what the right hon. Gentleman has done. He has said, "I will base my subsidies on a sub-standard house"—[HON. MEMBERS: "No "]—of course he did.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: Of course, unlike the right hon. Gentleman, I am only in the queue while he is on the ladder, but I do not think he should call these houses "sub-standard houses." I hope that will be remembered as the design of these houses is that of his predecessor. What I repeat is that the reduction of £50 is not only accepted as fair by the local authorities but was regarded as something rather even more than overgenerous.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman really must not try to ride off on that. What he has now done is to base his subsidy on a prospective house and what we always did was to base the subsidy on what had been done. What was done in the past was that we always took what the local authorities had done, the kind of houses they had freely built by their own initiative, based on housing manual standards, and we based the subsidy on that.
  What the right hon. Gentleman has done is to take a special type of house, inferior to other houses, assume that the local authority will build that house and that house alone and get a subsidy for it. In other words, if a local authority now wishes to build a superior house, still in accordance with housing manual standards, it can only do so at its own expense.
  The right hon. Gentleman has the impudence to say that in doing that he has followed precedents. But there were various types of houses before; there were bungalows, there were houses with not two W.C.'s but one, there were houses with much smaller out-houses being built by local authorities at that time. I did not base my housing subsidies on the assumption that the local authorities would build only the most inferior type of house. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, we based our subsidies on the assumption that they would build the three bedroom house, the type that was being built at that time, a superior type.
  What the right hon. Gentleman has done and asked posterity to judge—I am

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  perfectly prepared for my housing record and his to be judged by posterity—is that he has introduced into housing subsidies the most mischievous principle. What he has said is, "I will take the lowest standard house which is tolerated. I will base my housing subsidy on that and if a local authority wants to build better than that they can do so at the expense of the local rates or tenants." He calls himself a housing Minister; he is a slum minister. If some other person follows in his footsteps—that is why we must record our objection to this at once—only inferior houses will receive subsidies and local authorities will be asked to find the difference between that and the superior house. The right hon. Gentleman, in presenting his proposal to the House today, has indicated a revolutionary departure in the financing of local authority housing.
  Brigadier Terence Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman is jealous of us for building houses.
  Mr. Bevan: I venture to say that not for the next five years will the Tory Government, if unhappily they are there, reach anything like the number of houses per year that we reached in 1947–48.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill)indicated dissent.
  Mr. Bevan: The Prime Minister should not shake his head because he knows nothing about the matter. If there is one subject he ought carefully to avoid it is housing. He is still looking for those steel houses, and if he makes the same mess of transport as he did over that it will be a very bad thing for transport.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Housing and Local Government is a very dexterous gentleman. He knows that if the policies he advocates are carried out it will be disastrous for the country, but he has based all his calculations upon the assumption that local authorities will not take his advice. He made a speech in Manchester in which he talked of the number of houses going up and took credit to himself for having reached a most ingenious calculation, and said that, taking the past behaviour of local housing authorities, it is highly improbable that more than one in four private licences would be issued.
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  I gather—hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite may interrupt me here if they wish—that it is a good Conservative principle for 50 per cent. of the local authorities' allocation to be devoted to private licensing. I understand that no local authority would be rebuked if it gave 50 per cent. Therefore, the Conservative Party believes that the right policy for the country would be for all local authorities—
  Mr. H. Macmillan: The right hon. Gentleman allowed, and thought it proper, that one in five should be the right ratio. Presumably he would not have rebuked any authority operating at one in five. In fact, with the very good judgment they showed, owing to the difficult conditions, his one in five worked out at about one in nine, or eight.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it that way. I gather it would be regarded by the Conservative Party as a good local authority if 50 per cent. of its allocation went to private licence—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] We are coming along. Therefore, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite consider that a good local authority would be that authority which the least adopted the Tory principle? [Interruption.] Now we know where we are. We have at last got the guidance for the local authority elections. That is to say, the only way in which the country can protect its housing from the misgovernment of this Government is by electing Socialist majorities at the local elections.
  Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman hopes that local authorities will not be as foolish as he has invited them to be. I was hoping today that he would give us some figures as to the distribution of private licences. I should like to know where they are, because in the last part of his speech he talked about the economic effects of housing, and I quite agree.
  On the last occasion when we discussed this matter I pointed out to the House the seriousness of allowing builders and building materials to be used in those parts of the country economically least desirable, and of denying them to the industrial areas of the west and the north where there ought to have been more houses to rent. I should like to know who has been taking up these licences and where? I can guess—
  Mr. H. Macmillan: Perhaps I ought to apologise, because I was not present at the Question time yesterday when the right hon. Gentleman asked a Question about returns. I think he knew the answer, because he was responsible for the returns, but I ought to inform him that, unfortunately, the system of housing returns which he asked about has operated since his time in the same way; and the full quarterly return cannot be published, in accordance with the rules he laid down, until about the first week in the month of May. But I am happy to say I hope the full returns, with every detail, will be ready by about 5th or 6th May.
  Mr. Bevan: I am not quarrelling about that. And when the right hon. Gentleman says it was started by me, of course it was—because I wanted to educate the party opposite in housing statistics. For the first time in the history of housing in this country we gave monthly reports, setting out all the details month by month. Never had the Conservative Party a better opportunity of being educated about housing, and never did they take so little advantage of it.
  I did not want the general figures from the right hon. Gentleman. I know very well he could have scored a point at once by giving the figures for March, because they are high. They always are, and to those who do not understand they would look very impressive. But local authorities always hurry up with their returns in March so as to get the advantage of the subsidy.
  Mr. Macmillan: So they did last year.
  Mr. Bevan: Of course they did. The figures are always up in March. The right hon. Gentleman should listen. What we believe is that there have been very many more licences going, as I said on the previous occasion, on the fringes of the deep rural areas, which will work to the disadvantage of agricultural housing.
  I submit to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that this is a very serious matter. There is no single question facing this country which is more serious than that of domestic food production. I would challenge them to deny that there have been far more houses built in the last five years in the deep rural areas of Great Britain than in the previous 50 years. That can only be done
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  by denying the right of the urban authorities on the rural fringe to grant too many licences and thereby absorb too much building labour and materials.
  Therefore it would have been interesting to see the distribution of licences at this time, because we are anxious to find out whether the operation of the system will have the consequences we fear. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would vary this principle at once. The one in five ratio, as I said before, was regarded by some local authorities as far too generous.
  Many local authorities granted no licences at all. I think that for a long time the great local authority of Bristol granted no licences. Nor did many of the other blitzed areas, because they considered such was the housing need of local populations that emphasis ought to be placed on houses to rent.
  That is the reason why I deplore this encouragement to local authorities to sell their houses, not because I do not believe a person ought to own the house in which he lives. I believe that is desirable—[Laughter.]—certainly, I said so last time. I see no reason why a man should not own his own home—and I see no reason why he should own someone else's home. Indeed, as has been said today, in the course of five years we encouraged local authorities to lend money, and we operated the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act more effectively than the party opposite.
  The reason why we considered it undesirable that local authorities should sell houses to the tenants was because we did not want local authorities to reduce the pool of rentable accommodation, which is an essential condition in this crisis. It has always been considered by every student of this subject that at a time of economic crisis the mobility of the labour force depends directly upon the availability of rentable accommodation. Nothing immobilises a labour force more than inability to sell a house, or to be compelled to make a forced sale of a house in certain circumstances. So we consider that the housing policy of the Government is not directed to helping to solve the economic problems of the country, but only to satisfying the doctrinaire private enterprise theory of the party opposite.

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  I have one thing more to say. It seems a deplorable thing that we should once more consolidate the tied cottage. The landlords of this country and many of the farmers have had a very good deal at the hands of the State. The housing provisions for re-conditioning are very generous. Most farmers today could recondition their cottages and wipe off the capital cost in about 10 years. Very few other people have that advantage. I was talking to some farmers the other day and they were shocked by this further provision. They asked what was wrong with the existing provisions. They could re-condition a cottage and all they had to do was to create a tenancy.
  Surely there is nothing wrong with freeing agricultural workers. Why does the right hon. Gentleman want to give this additional subsidy and annoy the psychology of the agricultural worker? [Laughter.] The hon. Member laughs, but he has been speaking in this House for agricultural interests all through the bad agricultural years, when his party was in power.
  It seems to me to be an affront to the psychology of the agricultural worker to give the owner of his tied cottage State money with which to re-condition the cottage and still keep it tied, when the worker could have the money, could be freed, and we could make a tenant of him and give him the benefit of the Rent Restriction Acts.
  I consider that the public relations of the right hon. Gentleman are excellent. He speaks very well. He makes his crusading speeches about housing in the country, hoping all the time, that like the bemused audience in the theatre, they will be looking at his mouth and not watching his hands.
  6.1 p.m.
  Mr. Henry Brooke: I welcome the opportunity of following the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), because I want to argue the case which he has devoted himself to denying; namely, the case that the local authorities in this country can be trusted to know their job.
  I would refer only in passing to Clause 3 of the Bill, because, unless one accepts that no confidence at all can be placed in the discretion of the local authorities, it is obvious that this House should pass
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  Clause 3, as it enables the Minister, for the first time, to lay down certain necessary conditions and at the same time free local authorities from an obligation to sell their houses at the highest market price obtainable regardless of conditions, which it is quite clearly not desirable in the public interest that they should be compelled to do at the present time.
  It is on Clause 1 that I want to concentrate my speech, because the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale said a great deal about a proceeding in which he did not take part and I did. I was a member of the local authority deputation which, first of all, consulted among itself, and then met my right hon. Friend the Minister to discuss his subsidy proposals, which in the normal course—as was done by the right hon. Gentleman opposite during his time at the Ministry—were laid before the local authorities in draft form before bringing them to Parliament.
  I myself welcome the new subsidy rates, and I was quite unable to follow, as I think the House was, the arguments of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas), by which he strove to show that very heavy additional burdens would fall on the local authorities as a result of this Bill.
  Mr. de Freitas: I am shocked if a man in the hon. Gentleman's position in a local authority does not realise that heavy burdens will flow, and I am quite certain that, before the debate is over, a Member of the Government will be getting up and admitting that my figures were quite correct.
  Mr. Brooke: The hon. Member and his local authority may know a great deal about this, but I revert to the point that, as the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, the representatives of the Association of Municipal Corporations, the Urban District Councils' Association, the Rural District Councils' Association and the London County Council do not enter into discussions on complicated matters of this kind without first having consulted their own financial advisers about the effect of proposals the Minister is putting forward. The plain truth about this—and I was in these discussions, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite was not—is that both the financial advisers and the members of the local authorities who met the Minister were satisfied that the new

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  subsidy proposal would do what the Minister claimed it would do.
  I feel a sense of freedom regarding the figures which I did not think I should possess, because they were originally given in confidence, and I could not mention them now if the Minister had not already done so, but, if the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the hon. Member for Lincoln will work out the figures, they will find that the loan charges on £1,525—the notional cost of a three-bedroomed house—work out at approximately £70 a year. To that has to be added the sum of £12 for repair and management costs. The Minister said he was accepting a figure of 18s. as being a reasonably fair rent such as would, in fact, be charged by local authorities, which would bring in a revenue of some £46 a year. If we subtract £46 from £82, we obtain £36, which is practically what the total new subsidy amounts to.
  Therefore, I trust that the hon. Member for Lincoln will think again, and will go to his local authority and ask whether, if they disagree, they will thrash the matter out first with the Association of Municipal Corporations before appealing to their Member of Parliament.
  Mr. de Freitas: I do not want to wrangle on this point, but, if the hon. Gentleman will look at my figures, he will find that they are perfectly correct.
  Mr. Pannell: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? I, too, have the figures of the notional house before me, and the difference, vouched for by the financial advisers, is that, if we consider the increased interest rates which have been laid on, and then consider the subsidy settlement, there is a loss to the local authority per house per annum of £1 18s.; that is, on the figures used in the discussions, equivalent to about 9d. per week in rent.
  Mr. Brooke: I think the two hon. Gentlemen opposite are having a quarrel with the financial advisers of the local authorities and not with the Minister, and I very much regret that those hon. Members who know so much about the matter did not take the opportunity of consulting with their local authorities at the time when these proposals were actually being framed. No doubt, between now and the end of the debate, the Parliamentary Secretary will have
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  had an opportunity of working out the figures given by the hon. Member for Lincoln and will deal with them. I am sorry to see that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale has left the House.
  Mr. Walter Monslow: My right hon. Friend has just been called out urgently.
  Mr. Brooke: I entirely appreciate that. Perhaps his hon. Friends will explain to the right hon. Gentleman that I mean no discourtesy in dealing in his absence with the allegations which the right hon. Gentleman made as to the treatment given by the Minister to the local authorities.
  The figure of £1,525 that has been mentioned is not, in any sense, a figure which has been forced upon reluctant local authorities throughout the country. London, I agree, is reluctant to accept it, because it is impossible to build in or around London as cheaply as it is in other parts of the country, especially when we have not only to pay men the London rates, but when the men have to be transported out to sites in the home counties, because sufficient building labour is not available on the spot.
  I feel sure I shall be supported by other hon. Members in testifying that the proposed reduction of £50 on the agreed figure of £1,575 as the reasonable cost of a three-bedroom cottage is not challenged by local authorities throughout the country, and that we have just listened once again to another example of an ex-Minister in the last Government saying that local authorities cannot be trusted to know their job. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is not anyone on this side of the House who, as the right hon. Gentleman alleged, is seeking to interfere with the local authorities.
  We now have the extraordinary spectacle of an ex-Minister of Health, who has been accustomed to deal with local government in the past, saying in this House that the present Minister is undermining the independence of local authorities by financial sanctions, when there is no single local authority in the country which takes that view.
  Mr. G. Lindgren: A large number of local authorities are at this moment taking that view. Since the negotiations took place local authorities are feeling the effect.
  Mr. Brooke: I do not think the hon. Member quite appreciated the context in which I was speaking. I was speaking about this reduction of £50 in cost that can be achieved. That is what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale was challenging.
  Mr. Lindgren: I do not want the hon. Member, who is generally so fair, to get away with it. Every local authority which is building houses today since the increase in interest charges is, as the result of the new subsidy, one shilling and sometimes shillings a week worse off unless it reduces the standard of the house it is building.
  Mr. Brooke: It is possible that we are at cross-purposes, and I take it that the hon. Member does not challenge this statement—that it is possible and reasonable for a local authority, by adopting the proposals which were advocated in a circular sent out when he was at the Ministry, to achieve a saving of £50 or more a year per house. That is the only point at issue here.
  All the argument from the other side of the House today has been that the subsidies should be raised further. Perhaps one of the most spectacular pieces of Press comment was a leading article in "The Times" some weeks ago which suggested that the subsidy should not have been raised at all, or at any rate not so much. Frankly, I do not agree with "The Times." I look forward, as indeed hon. Members on both sides of the House possibly do, to the hope one day of returning to the situation of those years before the war when subsidies were concentrated on special needs that had to be met. If we can reach a time when local authorities can concentrate on slum clearance and the remedying of overcrowding, with the help of subsidies, we shall all rejoice. But that time is not here yet, and London housing authorities, even before the rise in interest rates, have been having a hard struggle to make ends meet, taking into account the former amounts of subsidy, the rents they are able to charge, and the high cost of building.
  I cannot help thinking that the writer of that article in "The Times" was comfortably housed himself and had no close appreciation at first hand of the kind of problems which have to be faced
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  constantly by people like myself who are members of London housing authorities. So far as London is concerned, it is utterly unrealistic to imagine that the subsidies could have been left unchanged, or that some increase of subsidy much less substantial than what the Minister has proposed would have met the case.
  I was glad to find that we have not had arguments today from the benches opposite that the Exchequer subsidy should have been used to make good the full amount of the increased cost. I feel certain that it is a sound rule of local government that in matters such as housing subsidies the local authority should itself bear a proportion of the cost. No self-respecting local authority would press for 100 per cent. assistance in a matter of this kind, because the inevitable result, as we know from past experience, would be that 100 per cent. interference by the Ministry would be claimed as the price exacted for 100 per cent. assistance.
  I should like to make some observation on the relative sizes of the subsidies for flats and houses on expensive land. The subsidy for flats tends to be a generous one. I do not know whether hon. Members have worked it out, but on city land where the site cost is £15,000 an acre the new subsidy will mean that each flat receives a subsidy of approximately £2 a week from public funds—a colossal figure. Nobody could suggest seriously that that sort of subsidy ought to be increased in present circumstances. I am anxious that the whole system of subsidies should be so devised as to maintain a proper balance between houses and flats on expensive land.
  I was brought into contact with this matter vividly a year or so ago because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale, when he was the Minister, appointed me chairman of a subcommittee which did its work and eventually presented an agreed report to the present Minister, who has been good enough to commend it to local authorities. The subject of that inquiry was the social needs and problems of families living in large blocks of flats. The work opened my eyes, and I think the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) who was with me in this inquiry will confirm what I say. It opened our eyes

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  to the fact that outside the London area remarkably little flat-building has been done so far, except in the three cases of Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester. The overwhelming majority of flats built in this country since the war have been built in the London area.
  In that report we presented figures showing that even on land where, for financial reasons, it is essential to achieve a high density, it is yet possible to include quite a fair proportion of two-storeyed cottages or three-storeyed terrace houses among the flats, and at the same time attain the average required density.
  The other point relevant to this Bill which emerged from our study was that in London after the war there seemed to have been not enough effort made by either the London County Council or the Metropolitan borough councils to explore fully the possibilities of this mixed development, and an astonishingly high proportion of all the new dwellings built in the county of London since the war have been flats and not houses.
  I do not think anybody wishes to see London redeveloped with flats alone. The subsidy arrangements as between flats and houses should be so planned as to achieve two objects. One is not to give encouragement to a provincial city to eat up a great deal of valuable agricultural land around its perimeter, if in fact it has sites within its boundaries which it quite reasonably could develop with blocks of flats to a fairly high density. I do not want London to teach anybody else their business, but I hope this comment of an outside observer will not be considered discourteous.
  It seems to me to be good public policy that in large cities a certain amount of flat building should be regarded as a necessity. The continuous consumption of agricultural land in large quantities by small houses built on the perimeter of cities must be deplored unless there is no other way of fulfilling the housing need. It is not for me as a Londoner to judge precisely what will be the effect of these new subsidy rates on building in the provincial cities, but I for one would not deplore it if they did give some encouragement to cities which have not yet thought sufficiently about flats or which, perhaps, have some horror of flats, to consider whether it is not reasonable to
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  overcome that inhibition and build a certain number of flats, for we in London have proved that council flats can be built so as to provide good social and family life. But at the same time, surely nobody would maintain that flats are suitable for all kinds of families.
  What I fear is that these new subsidy rates will further discourage the London local authorities from making experiments with the building of houses.
  Mr. Gibson indicated assent.
  Mr. Brooke: I see the hon. Member for Clapham nods his head. He will be aware that at a meeting of the London County Council only the other day, the Housing Committee reported that with the new subsidy there may be a financial advantage to the council in the provision of flats. Surely that is just the bias which we do not want to create. Would it not be more advisable to create a bias, if at all, in favour of this mixed development of houses with flats, than to make it profitable for the London County Council or for any Metropolitan borough council to build flats universally?
  I quite appreciate that the Minister, as he said, is making the upward steps in the scale of subsidy for houses on expensive land rather more favourable than they used to be, as site costs rise from £3,000 to £10,000 an acre, but unfortunately he has not tackled what I think is at the root of this trouble. It is the fact that in these subsidy arrangements flats built on land at anything over £1,500 an acre begin to qualify for a higher rate of subsidy, whereas houses do not begin to qualify for any higher rate unless the land costs £3,000 an acre or more. Consequently, the houses can never, as it were, catch up with that disadvantage.
  I have analysed these figures as carefully as I can, and, having done so, I submit that the effect of these new subsidy rates will be to make it much more attractive to urban local authorities to build all flats and no houses where the site costs are between £1,500 and, say, £7,000 an acre. And yet that is precisely the land, in the outer boroughs of London, where one could achieve the accepted densities under the development plan whilst still including quite a good proportion of houses. I fear greatly that if this Bill goes through unchanged, the

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  necessary encouragement to the London local authorities to try for mixed development will not be there.
  It is extraordinary that the Ministry should continue to make this mistake. The Labour Government of old made exactly the same mistake, cutting right across the advice given in the Housing Manual, and continued in all other housing publications, that local authorities should seek to carry out experiments in mixing houses and flats on expensive land. I am not attacking one party or the other, or one Government or the other. The same criticism that I am making now was made in another place on 11th April, 1946, and I think that the then Opposition was as dissatisfied with the then Government's handling of this matter as, I am afraid, I still am dissatisfied with the present Government's handling of it.
  The position is that on land at £3,000 an acre, a local authority will get from the Exchequer a subsidy higher by £36 12s. a year if it builds a flat rather than a house, and on land at £7,000 an acre a local authority will get a subsidy higher by £31 14s. a year. That is too great a bribe to local authorities to go in for flats entirely. I trust the local authorities will resist this temptation. I believe that the London County Council, with the help of the hon. Member for Clapham and myself, may be induced to resist it, but I submit that we ought not to be putting that sort of temptation in front of local authorities, and that we should be so designing the subsidy system that, in apportioning flats and houses to expensive sites, a local authority can reach its decision on social and planning grounds alone, without being swayed by financial considerations solely stemming from the subsidy arrangements which ought to be quite extraneous to the decision.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. C. W. Gibson: First of all, may I follow the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. H. Brooke) and say that I think we all agree on the need for mixed development in all our housing schemes, but would add that in London that is a much greater problem than anywhere else in the country, if for only one reason. The average price of land inside the county is over £10,000 an acre; that
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  is what the London County Council themselves have to pay. On that basis it becomes financially, and practically, impossible to build many cottages. What we have to do is to work a few in where-ever we can, and that is what the L.C.C does.
  Incidentally, the effect of this new subsidy is becoming fantastic. On flats built on land worth £10,000 to £12,000 an acre, the subsidy under this Bill will be £81 4s. a flat for 60 years. It will be considerably more than the flat cost to build in the first instance, but unless some such subsidy is paid, then local authorities like the L.C.C. will have to stop building.
  The criticism I want to make about this Bill is this. No one really wants to oppose it, but it ought never to have been necessary, and had we not had this rather silly increase in the rate of interest it would not have been necessary—at least, not to the same extent. It seems to me to be Gilbertian to raise the rate of interest on housing loans to 4¼ per cent. and then to say, "We will give you a subsidy which will cover broadly the cost of the extra interest charges." That is what has been done.
  Incidentally, it does not completely cover the increased cost to the local authorities. I shall be giving some figures on that in a moment. All that it really does is to give a few more pounds to the bankers and to put a bit more money into the contractors' pockets. It does not in the least help the local authorities. In fact, it will cost all the local authorities a good deal more money.
  Mr. H. Nicholls: Did I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that it was only an increase in interest rates which warranted an increased subsidy? The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) has already said that increased building costs have justified an extra subsidy.
  Mr. Gibson: The point I am making is that the effect of this subsidy, which, I agree, the Minister has shared out between the State and the local authorities on the same principles as those adopted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) when he was Minister, has been a very considerable increase in the cost of local housing. Although the Minister was anxious to

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  make plain that he did not say that we were to get from the State all the increased cost of housing, the impression which was given was that the State would bear the whole of the increased cost.
  I should like to quote from HANSARD a Question put by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop) on 19th February of this year. He said then:
  "Are we to understand that the increase in the housing subsidy is guaranteed to be sufficient to cover the whole increased cost to local housing authorities of the new rate of interest?"
  That seems to me to be quite clear and plain. The answer was, "Yes, Sir." That question was followed by one from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), who asked a similar question, in answer to which the Minister said:
  "I have answered perfectly straightforwardly the question put to me. The answer is Yes, Sir.'"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th February, 1952 Vol. 496, c. 26.]
  That did not mislead me. I did not believe even then that we were to get all the increased interest charges out of the Treasury; but it certainly misled a good many people in the country and if there is misunderstanding in the minds of local government representatives the Minister has himself to blame for it.
  The fact is that it does mean a very considerable increase in the cost. For instance, the London County Council—a very wealthy organisation—will itself have to bear an increased rate charge per year of over £46,000 on an output of about 9,000 houses which, because they are in the London area will inevitably cost more to build than in any other part of the country, partly because of the increased price of land to which I have referred and partly because the building trade workers in the London area receive a higher rate of pay; but mainly—or very largely, as was stated in one of the Reports presented by the Monopolies Commission—because the price of building materials was artificially forced up in the London region.
  On several occasions "The Times" has called attention to the enormous increase in the price of building materials. One of the most amazing things, to me, is to hear the Minister of Works apparently boasting that he proposes to lift all control
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  from building materials and prices. If he does we shall have an enormous increase in the price of all building materials used in our houses and that, coming on top of the increase in the interest rate—for which it seems to me there was no justification at all except the theories of the London bankers—makes it hardly surprising to find "The Times" on 3rd March, saying, with regard to the decision to increase the interest rates:
  "The decision seems unwarranted by the facts of the situation, incompatible with a policy of reasonable disinflation, contrary to Conservative principles"—
  I am not worried about that—
  "and, it must be said, to common sense."
  I must say that the whole thing seems to me to be a shocking example of a lack of common sense on the part of a political party which, historically, never has shown very much common sense. I should like to point out something else. There is a journal which represents and reports the feelings of the builders of this country—the "National Builder"—and in its April issue it says:
  "The raising of the Bank rate to 4 per cent., making the cost of borrowing money even higher than before, and the increase in the cost of petrol will obviously make building work more expensive,"—
  the Minister was talking about reducing building costs—
  "but it may be that the drastic cutting of food subsidies will prove to be the biggest single reason for higher tender prices later in the year."
  So the spokesman of the building industry is warning us that later in the year tender prices are to be still higher. That seems to me to be an obvious development which could have been foreseen by any Government which took the trouble really to think out what it was doing on this question of raising the interest rate and raising the rates of subsidy.
  It is getting so ridiculous that as far as the London County Council itself is concerned there is a rate charge of £200,000 a year for housing alone and the subsidy per house is nearly double the weekly rent received. I am not against the subsidies. I think we must have them if we are to keep rents down to the level that the ordinary workman can pay; but a policy of releasing the contractors, the building merchants and the bankers—will have the result of pushing up prices

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  so high that one has to have another subsidy; which produces a situation where we not only have dearer building but rents probably going up still higher—only means that, in the end, we shall have a repetition of the sad experiences which many of us went through in the years between the wars, when the market was allowed to go mad, prices went sky-high, the building of houses became impossible, with utter bankruptcy to the local authorities in London, and the Tory Government stopped all building.
  That happened two or three times and I think we are heading for a collapse of that description again unless we can get back to the policies which were being pursued before this Government took office, of keeping a tight control on building materials, on building prices, their use and distribution, and getting the interest rates on housing loans back to the figures at which they stood before the General Election. Anything short of that is an encouragement to even higher prices for our building, higher rents and, as has been said,, to rent resistance, which will result in it being impossible to let some of the houses or flats for which a higher rent is already being charged.
  I am told that even the paragons about which the Tory Party talk so much—the people who want to buy their own homes—are already refusing and handing back licences. Again, in the "National Builder" for this month, we find this in an editorial:
  "In recent months there have been reported several cases of prospective house purchasers returning licences because of mounting house-building costs. The raising of the rate of interest will be the last straw for many more would-be purchasers who will now remain in, or seek, rented accommodation."
  I should have thought that that was an obvious development of the kind of policy which the Tory Party are following just now. Although, in view of the financial position of the local authorities, we cannot resist the first Clause of this Bill. I suggest that we must try to do something to improve it, if possible; but the fact will have to be driven home—and I think the local elections have shown that it has been driven home successfully—that if one lets the market rip, as so many Conservative Members of this House have advocated, then inevitably we will have enormous increases in the price
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  of building materials and the cost of building construction.
  That is what happened in Australia when they did the same sort of thing and that is what has always been the position in America. If that policy is followed we will price ourselves out of the markets, house-building and slum clearance will stop, and people will be in a worse position than ever before. If the Tory Party want to gain votes I suggest that they should adopt the Labour policy of controls on building materials and prices, and the strict regulation of building under a well thought out system of priorities, something similar to that operating before the Election.
  We are returning to utter chaos and anarchy in the building industry, of not only dearer prices but unemployment, and a lot of bankruptcy among the smaller builders. While we ought not to resist the Second Reading of the Bill I think it will have to be very considerably improved. I think that the Clause relating to the giving of subsidies to tied houses is one of the worst I have seen in legislation in this House. It amounts to giving a double subsidy to the farmer and it puts the farm worker in the position of being almost an abject slave to the farmer. This Clause will have to be resisted, and I hope my hon. Friends will resist it.
  Clause 3, which removes the inducement to sell only at the best possible price, will also have to be resisted. It is quite clear from what the Minister said, in a reply to an interruption I made when he was speaking, that he himself does not know at what figure the Government intend to allow local authorities to sell. Surely, even on Conservative principles, local authorities should not be allowed to sell houses to private owners at a loss to themselves. If that is the Government's policy, let them say so and we shall get a few more votes during the elections in the next few weeks.
  Finally, I believe that the county council electors have shown quite clearly what is flowing through the minds of the people of this country about the Government's line of policy on housing as well as on other matters. I believe that the Tory Party will get a shock when the borough elections are held in a week or

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  two, in spite of their attempt to try to work up some excitement about fares.
  What will bring most support to this side of the House and to our friends in the country is the great efforts made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) in building up a housing organisation which has produced more houses at rents which people can afford to pay than have ever been produced in any comparable period in the history of this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]Yes, and I hope that will be remembered. Indeed, I am sure it will be remembered by the people of this country when the time comes to turn this Government out.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: I will leave the statistics with which the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) concluded his speech to be laughed out of court of their own accord. I observed that in what he had to say about subsidies he was riding rapidly in two opposite directions. First, he said we ought not to be raising subsidies to compensate for the increase in the rates of the Public Works Loan Board. Then he urged the Government to keep down the rates charged by the Public Works Loan Board, which, of course, means a subsidy of a different kind.
  Mr. Gibson: I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not mean to misrepresent what I said, although I know he is an expert at doing so. What I was saying was that to force through an increase in the interest rates and then to cover it by an increase in subsidies is "Alice in Wonderland" economics.
  Mr. Powell: But the hon. Member is presumably aware that the rate at which the Government were able to borrow money, when the Public Works Loan Board's rate was still 3 per cent., was considerably above that. There was, therefore, an element of subsidy being given. The hon. Gentleman is merely suggesting that the subsidy should be given in one form and not in another.
  Mr. James MacColl: Would the hon. Member explain exactly what amount of the money advanced by the Public Works Loan Board is borrowed, and for what period it is borrowed?
  Mr. Powell: The rates are roughly comparable with long-term interest rates.
  Mr. MacColl: That is not an answer to the question.
  Mr. Powell: It is a question of a loan of 60 years—that is, long-term interest rates.
  Mr. MacColl: May I explain what I mean?
  Mr. Powell: I shall be coming to this point at a later stage of my remarks and I should like to deal with it in context.
  The hon. Member for Clapham also objected to the fact that local authorities would no longer be obliged to obtain the best possible price—that is, the vacant possession market price—for any house they sell. But the late Government themselves declined to pay the vacant possession market price for property which they bought. It is well know that in the Town and Country Planning Act the element of vacant possession value was eliminated from the purchase price which the Government were prepared to pay.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: I do not think that the hon. Member is being quite fair. Under the section in the Town and Country Planning Act which lays down the rate of the public purchase price, a notional figure is interposed assuming that the sitting tenant is there until 1954. As time goes by we get nearer and nearer to the open market price, which assumes that there is no sitting tenant.
  Mr. Powell: Of course, but the fact is that property is bought at a price which is lower than its vacant possession market value, whereas the hon. Member for Clapham was saying that that was the price which local authorities ought to be forced to obtain for any property they sell.
  Mr. Gibson: I am sorry to interrupt again, but I did not say that at all. At present, the law permits the local authority to get the highest possible price. What I was objecting to was the suggestion that that should be deleted from the law and that local authorities should sell at a loss to themselves. That is what I tried to get the Minister to explain when he was speaking. If the hon. Member is in favour of local authorities selling houses at a loss, then let him say so and let us know where we are.
  Mr. Powell: What I am saying is that it would be unreasonable for the existing legal obligation to obtain the best possible price to be retained for the sale of council houses by local authorities.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels rose—
  Mr. Powell: I cannot be expected to give way constantly.
  There has been a good deal of confusion about the practical effect of the increase in subsidies, and this confusion has been in two opposite directions. In introducing the Bill, my right hon. Friend mentioned three variables which entered into housing calculations—the cost of building a house, the cost of maintenance and the rent obtained from the tenant. I should like to add two other variables to the equation—the rate of interest which is paid and the subsidy which is obtained from taxes and rates. Thus, in this matter we are operating, altogether, with five variables.
  For many years, two of those variables—the interest rate and the subsidy—have been fixed and, therefore, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the increases in the cost of construction and of maintenance have been taken up by the remaining variable, which is the rent—except, of course, insofar as local authorities have been able to cushion part of the impact upon the tenant by paying an extra subsidy out of the rates. The effect, and the precisely calculated effect, of this increase in the subsidy is to offset a new change in the variables—namely, an increase in the rate of interest. It does not deal one way or the other with any of the other changes.
  In the remarks of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) a very important disclosure was made. The right hon. Gentleman—and I am sorry to have to refer to his remarks in his absence, but he is an important witness in this matter—said that until recently—he did not specify the exact point of time—the increase in rents necessary to offset the increase in costs had only been proportionate to the general increase in earnings, but that of late that situation had been changing. The increase in costs had been getting out of step with the general increase in earnings, so that it would have been necessary, had that gone on, to make an alteration in the subsidy, in the fifth variable, to offset the effect of the continued rise in costs.
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  As I understood him, the right hon. Gentleman criticised my right hon. Friend for having dealt in this Bill merely with the effect of the increase in interest rates and for not having also increased the subsidies to offset recent rises in the cost of building. Well, if it is the case that, as the late Administration's period went on, building prices rose out of line with the rise in the general level of wages, then that is one of the most serious condemnations of their housing policy that can be imagined. It is a condemnation in practice. So far from my right hon. Friend being ill-advised in not increasing subsidies to offset the rise in costs of building, he is going in the right direction in saying that those costs must, on the contrary, be brought down.
  Indeed, the logical result of my right hon. Friend's policy necessarily is that costs will fall. If, with the same building labour force, if, with the same basic resources, we produce a greater number of houses, then it stands to reason—as a bald economic fact—that the general level of costs will cease to rise and will begin to fall.
  So, quite apart from the important effect of his following out the policy of his predecessor and thus obtaining initially a prospective reduction in regard to house plans of £50 on the average council house—quite apart from that, the effect of my right hon. Friend's general policy is bound to be a stabilisation of building costs followed by an ultimate reduction. We should be going entirely in the wrong direction if we attempted to chase rising costs with rising subsidies.
  Quite the opposite case was made in the leading article in "The Times" to which reference has several times been made. That article referred to the subsidies and said:
  "This makes it the more astonishing that the Government's first move should be to raise council housing subsidies, not only by the small amount needed to offset the higher interest charges on local authority loans, but by nearly two-thirds."
  There is a very simple fallacy in this direction. The idea in the mind of the writer—and I think that this difficulty has been quite generally felt—is that whereas the rate of interest has only risen from 3 per cent. to 4¼ per cent., subsidies have been raised by practically two-thirds. Of course, this is a fallacy. The subsidy covers the margin; it covers the last

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  portion of the cost of the house which is not covered from other sources. Therefore, the proportionate increase in the subsidy is far greater than the proportionate increase in total cost which it is designed to meet.
  Let me give a very simplified illustration. If something costs £1,000 and there is a £100 subsidy payable on it, a 10 per cent. increase in the cost will require a 100 per cent. increase in the subsidy to offset that rise in cost. Hence the fallacy into which the writer of the article, and, I believe, many other people have fallen, of believing that this increase in subsidy has been far greater than is necessary to offset the increase in the Public Works Loan Board rate.
  The increase was, of course, decided upon before the further increase in the Bank rate announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 11th March. In some quarters it has been asked why the subsidies are not to be further adjusted in respect of that further increase in the Bank rate. In fact, the long-term borrowing rate has remained practically unchanged as a result of the policy initiated in the Budget. The change in Old Consols rates between 10th March and the present date has only been about ½ per cent. My right hon. Friend is, therefore, logically justified in keeping the subsidy at the level which was planned before the Budget.
  These subsidy provisions of the Bill are, in a sense, as the House recognises, consequential—consequential upon the increases in the Public Works Loan Board rates. The other portions of the Bill are machinery. There are machinery Clauses for making practicable the sale of council houses; and there is the redressal of that extraordinary act of prejudice in the 1946 and 1949 Acts which denied the benefit of housing subsidy or reconditioning subsidy to those who occupy tied houses.
  This piece of vindictiveness was all the more difficult to understand since hon. Gentlemen opposite do, in their more sober moments, recognise the necessity for this institution of the service house. In the minority reservations of the Ridley Committee Report on the Rent Restrictions Act the right hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Key) and his friend, Mr. Buchanan, agreed that the institution of the tied cottage outside the agricultural
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  sphere was useful and should continue. Even within the agricultural sphere they agreed it was necessary in certain types of farming—for certain types of agricultural employment. So that the principle that tied cottages are necessary has been recognised by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Mr. E. G. Gooch: Not all of them.
  Mr. Powell: It has been recognised by the late Government, because the late Government were repeatedly urged by their party conferences to abolish the tied house, and they as repeatedly ignored that request—or mandate: I am not sure which it technically is. Therefore, the effect of legislation hitherto has been that persons living in conditions which hon. Gentlemen opposite recognise to be an unavoidable part of our system have been denied the advantage of reconditioning or of new housing. That is an injustice which this Bill redresses.
  I want to make one or two observations in support of the criticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. H. Brooke) of the effect which the new subsidies has upon the building of flats and mixed development. My right hon. Friend, in introducing the Bill, said that the new scales for flats and mixed development were on precisely the same basis as in former Acts. My criticism attaches to that basis itself. In 1946 it was pointed out, notably by Lord Balfour of Burleigh in another place, that the scale of subsidy put a premium upon the building of flats and particularly of large flats—tall flats. Even the 1949 Act, although it modified the premium upon very high flats, did nothing to alter the general preference which those scales give to flatted development.
  In London, over the past six years, the general shape of housing finance has been that the losses on cottage development have been partly paid for by the profits—the gains in subsidy—on flat development. Until recently these were tending, at any rate, to offset one another. There has been a steady loss on nearly all cottage development, and usually there has been a substantial gain on development in the form of flats. Consequently, for financial reasons, there has been a premium upon maintaining a big percentage of flat development in the programme.

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  That effect still continues, and may, perhaps, be intensified by the present scales. I will give one example. It is of a five-storey development in central London. The proposal for it was recently before the London County Council. It involves a cost of over £700 per room, which, even at present levels, is a very high cost. Before these subsidies were proposed, on the old level of subsidies, there would have been a deficit of £29 a year per dwelling. The effect of these subsidies is not merely to wipe out this deficit, but to convert it into a profit of £10 a year.
  That example is by no means an isolated one. It is an illustration of the way in which these scales put a premium on flat development on expensive land. I hope my right hon. Friend will call for evidence of the practical working of those scales and will not hesitate to modify them before the Bill receives the Royal Assent if he finds that the result is to over-encourage flat development.
  Finally, we must recognise, although it would have been a mistaken policy not to offset by these subsidies the effect of the increase in the Public Works Loan Board rate, that, nevertheless, an immense and increasing sum of public money is being paid out to keep down the rents of council houses. In the long run that is only justified if these houses are going to people who financially need them or who cannot otherwise be re-housed in the course of slum clearance or de-congestion. Only my right hon. Friend's housing policy as a whole can justify the position of this Bill within it.
  Towards that lightening of the local authority lists which must prelude an intensive attack upon slum clearance and congestion associated with financial need, through the agency of the subsidies, my right hon. Friend's policy has already made an important contribution. It is my experience, as it must be that of every hon. Member who takes a personal interest in the practical working out of these things in his own constituency, to be approached by persons on the local authority housing lists—persons often quite near the top of the list with perhaps only three or six months to wait—who say that it is not a question of rent, that they are prepared to pay an economic rent, and, indeed, are able and
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  anxious to pay a deposit to buy their own house. They say that they have been forced to put themselves down for a council house because that was the only prospect they saw of re-housing at all.
  My right hon. Friend's policy of increasing the total number of houses built, and within that total of increasing the proportion of houses which persons can buy or can rent at an economic rent, contributes directly to enabling local authorities to use the subsidies for the basic purpose for which they were originally intended and for which they should alone serve. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale had the impertinence to describe my right hon. Friend as a "slum Minister." I suggest that that title fits more appropriately the Minister of Health under whom for the first time for decades in this country no slum clearance whatever was carried out or attempted, and, indeed, under whose Ministry the slums multiplied faster than they had done since the First World War.
  I will end with words from the speech made by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale when introducing the Housing Act, 1946, which this Bill amends:
  "I am convinced that as the year develops the housing situation will show that the Government have the whole thing well in hand, and the people of Great Britain will realise that they have in office at the present time people who are really concerned about housing and not merely about making political capital about it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1946; Vol. 420, c. 460.]
  7.4 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Gooch: I propose to deal only with Clause 2 of the Bill, to which I offer the strongest objection on two grounds. First of all, I do not think that public money should be handed over to private landlords to spend on cottage property which has fallen into disrepair due to their own neglect. From 1926 to 1945, the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts were in force under which local authorities were empowered to make grants to private owners to help recondition such cottages.
  In 1948, the Labour Government allowed these Acts to lapse, and I rejoiced at their decision. I and the National Union of Agricultural Workers, with which I am associated, have always been opposed to the principle of these Acts, and we have submitted both

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  written and oral evidence to the Hob-house Committee which emphasised this inflexible opposition to grants of public money to private persons for the reconditioning of cottage property. We contended that there should be no grant made for reconditioning, but that local authorities should be prepared to advance money up to a certain fixed sum on loan, but that no loans should be made in respect of tied cottages. If employers wanted cottages from which they could eject their workers when no alternative accommodation was available, then they should build and maintain them at their own expense.
  Other objections to the grants for reconditioning were expressed, and it was questioned whether on Socialist principles grants from public funds should be made for the improvement of property, especially when, as in the case of many rural cottages, it had been bought at a very low figure because of its condition. It was also pointed out that the majority of rural workers' cottages were built over 100 years ago—many of them well over 100 years ago—and that the technical difficulties of bringing the older type of country cottage up to modern standards were very great. Many of the cottages are structurally below modern standards of decent living and have reached the stage of decay when they are beyond adequate repair and reconstruction.
  The opinion was also expressed—and it was a useful opinion I think—that in some cases reconditioning was being used to push aside the building of new houses as of comparatively little importance. May I again add that if reconditioning is not to be mere patching up, it cannot consist merely of minor repairs or alterations, but must involve the use of skilled labour suitable to the building of new dwellings?
  I want to face up to a suggestion which has been made in certain quarters. In reply to the argument that there are some cottages of great structural value and architectural beauty which ought to be saved and modernised, I say that the young farm worker and his wife will invariably prefer a cottage of modern lay-out to the reconditioning of something half ruined though picturesque.
  The fundamental question about the reconditioning of a building is not whether it is beautiful, but whether, when
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  reconditioned, it is fit to live in. Any reconditioning of cottages in the countryside which it is desired to preserve for all time should, I think, be undertaken, not by the individual, but by the local authority. It is obvious that this is a matter which should not be left to private individuals, and, in any event, I do not think that public money should be used to patch up old cottages, however picturesque, which are already pretty near the end of their useful life.
  I want to say a word with regard to something that was said by the Hobhouse Committee in its Report. That Report stated that the consensus of opinion of the bodies which gave evidence before it was in favour of reconditioning grants being resumed. It was not surprising that it should say that because the Central Landowners' Association, the National Farmers' Union and the Federation of Women's Institutes favoured the scheme The National Union of Agricultural Workers and the Sanitary Inspectors' Association—perhaps the only two bodies giving evidence before the Committee whose members did not stand to profit by reconditioning—were not in favour of grants from public funds being made for this purpose.
  I should now like to deal with a point made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). which concerns my second objection. My strongest objection is to the giving of public money in the case of cottages held on a service occupation. The hon. Gentleman said that we on this side think there should be service cottages associated with agriculture. I have been in the limelight in agricultural circles for the last 30 years, and I ought to know something about it, and I challenge him to produce any evidence that I have ever expressed an opinion in favour of the continuation of tied cottages. I have denounced tied cottages for years, and I shall continue to denounce them until there is in office a Government which will end the scheme for all time.
  The Hill Farming Act, 1946, began again the assisted reconditioning by private owners of rural cottages, but made one variation—and an important variation it was, too: that no grant should be payable in respect of cottages held on a service occupation. If the owner of a service cottage wished to obtain a grant

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  to make improvements he had to be prepared to grant what is known as a restricted tenancy, which prevents the tenant from being ejected without an order from the court but does not make it necessary to prove that alternative accommodation should be available.
  The Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1947, provided that a private owner could obtain a subsidy towards the cost of erecting a new house to be occupied by himself or a tenant. This meant that a farmer could obtain a subsidy towards the cost of erecting a new house to be occupied by one of his workers, again on the condition that the house was let to the worker on the basis of a tenancy, such a tenancy to be of a restricted character, the landlord having to apply to the court for possession of that cottage without proving existence of alternative accommodation.
  The same principles were embodied in the Housing Act, 1949, under which assistance for reconditioning was not limited, as it had been formerly, to improvement in the houses of agricultural workers. All farm cottages erected and improved under the Act were brought within the ambit of the Rent Restrictions Acts. The cottages held on what I described as a "restricted tenancy" do not give the occupants of those cottages the security of the alternative accommodation section. The Conservatives fought hard in 1946 and 1949, during the passage of these Housing Acts, to secure subsidies and improvement grants for owners of service cottages. In the 1950 Election the Conservative campaign reached its peak when the party election manifesto, "This Is The Road," included a pledge to restore reconditioning grants to all tied cottages.
  This Bill revives grants for the reconditioning of rural workers houses, including farm cottages where no tenancy exists, and from which a worker—and this is a point which is not generally known—can be summarily ejected on the ending of his contract of service. In other words, the moment a man's contract of service on a farm ends, he is a trespasser in his cottage and can be turned out by the owner of the cottage without resorting to the courts, not even having a policeman
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  there to see fair play. That happens today in rural England, and it is because it happens in rural England today that I shall oppose this for all I am worth.
  Mr. C. E. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. Gentleman says it happens today in rural England. For the purpose of clarification, could he tell the House upon how many occasions that has happened in his own constituency, for the sake of argument, during the last year, or the year before, or both years together?
  Mr. Gooch: The hon. Gentleman, who happens to be a constituent of mine but not a supporter, knows very well that I could, and I will produce the evidence for which he is asking. I have not got it here, naturally, but he can take it from me, as he knows very well, that evictions have taken place not so many miles from where he lives. I will refer to one in a moment. If he desires any figures of the number of people ejected or summarily evicted from their tied cottages, I will try to supply the answer to this question.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. Gentleman always says he will try to supply us with the answer. It would support his case a good deal more strongly if, before coming to the House and delivering his speech, he took the trouble to find out exactly how many cases of the kind he describes have really occurred.
  Mr. Gooch: I will not only supply the hon. Gentleman with the number of evictions that have taken place, but I will supply him with the details. I hope that he will then be satisfied that such a thing as I have described does take place, and can continue to take place.
  Mr. George Jeger: Is my hon. Friend aware that I have in my hand a letter which I received this morning from one of my constituents in the village of Fairburn, near Leeds, West Riding, in which, asking me to oppose this Clause, he says:
  "Would you please object to that grant that is being proposed. We have in our branch"—
  that is the branch of the Agricultural Workers' Union—
  "three members, all good farm men, with eviction orders weighing on them. They have been given notice to quit. One has 30 years' service, another 15 years' service, and another 4 years. Notice to quit because of a difference of opinion between them and their boss, the farmer."
  Mr. Julian Snow: Is my hon. Friend also aware that I have three cases in my post at the present time?
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: I, too, have a letter from the Gloucester Branch, in which the branch is complaining that agricultural workers can be evicted in this way.
  Mr. Percy Wells: Is my hon. Friend aware that I have cases—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that in fairness to the hon. Member who has the Floor he ought to be allowed to proceed.
  Mr. Gooch: Whilst I am very glad to have that evidence, I should like to be able to get on with my own speech.
  Hon. Members opposite propose that public funds should be used to repair or recondition houses whose occupation shall be in the absolute control of the employer. This Bill also proposes to enable subsidies to be paid for new houses occupied by farm workers on a contract of service, namely, houses where no tenancy, not even a restricted one, exists. In their fight for the return of the facilities which the Housing (Rural Workers) Act provided, the Tories and the farmers, whose arguments will not hold water, claim that a farmer who availed himself of a grant under the recent Housing Acts lost control of the house so that a worker could take other employment and still remain in the house as long as he liked. That is absolutely untrue.
  It is also contended—and the present Minister of Agriculture used this argument last year when the Livestock Rearing Act was considered in Committee—that unless farmers are allowed to have cottages which are held by workers on a service occupation they will refuse to repair or recondition their cottages without the aid of public money, and that therefore the Labour Government condemned farm workers to bad housing conditions. I want to face up to this, because it is what so many Conservatives say. That was saying, in effect, that we who oppose the reconditioning of tied cottages want to deprive the farm workers and their families of decent housing conditions. We do not want to do anything of the kind. We want to prevent further injustice being done to them. What the present Minister was saying, in effect, was that unless farmers are allowed to retain
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  the right of summary eviction they will do nothing to keep their cottages in order.
  There are plenty of other arguments that can be advanced against reconditioning grants, but the main argument against the proposal contained in this Bill is that it gives a new lease of life to the worst type of tied cottage. I am not surprised at this retrograde move on the part of the Tory Government. Members opposite approve of tied cottages. I have here their Agricultural Charter, which was issued some little time ago, and I have refreshed my memory by seeing what they say about tied cottages. They are quite honest about it. Members opposite approve of tied cottages, and in this charter, in 1948, they said that they would reintroduce grants and loans for the reconditioning of farm workers houses at the earliest possible moment.
  The Government are faced with many urgent problems, yet they regard this as the appropriate moment to introduce a controversial matter of this kind. This Bill, if it still contains Clause 2 and becomes an Act of Parliament, will yet more firmly rivet the shackles of the tied cottage upon hundreds of farm workers, and thus continue to deny to them freedom in their own homes.
  The Agricultural Charter says that the tied cottage system must be retained. It refers to tied cottages in the police force, the nationalised industries teaching and the Church. In not one of these does summary eviction operate.
  The Prime Minister is quoted as being a tied cottage tenant. That is all in this book. I think that a 1s. is charged for it but it is not worth a 1s. because there is so much nonsense in it. The Prime Minister is quoted in the Agricultural Charter as a tied cottage tenant, but may I say that the Prime Minister as a rule gets five years' notice to quit. I do not know whether this one will, but as a rule he does. In any case, the Prime Minister in this country has another house to go to. Many farm workers do not get one month's notice to quit, and hon. Members opposite know that to be true.
  The Agricultural Charter charges the Socialists with wilfully magnifying and distorting this problem for party purposes, and it adds, "We will always seek

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  to prevent cases of hardship." What would the Tories have done in a case that took place not many miles from his residence, which I had to deal with, in which a man, wife and three children, one a few months old, were turned out of their house and spent a cold night in a church porch? The only way to deal with the tied cottage is to abolish the system, but this Bill merely adds to the problem.
  I am not surprised that the National Farmers' Union should give a welcome to this Bill and use the argument that farm workers are entitled to proper housing accommodation, but they support the principle that the owner is entitled to dip into the public purse to provide the accommodation. I say, let the local authorities provide the accommodation to which the farm workers are entitled.
  May I call attention to a statement made by one who is rather prominent in farming circles? This is what one farmer publicly stated about the Government's proposal.
  "Although I am a farmer for profit"—
  wrote A. G. Street in "The Farmers Weekly"—
  "and a member of the N.F.U., I must place it on record here that I am wholeheartedly on the side of the National Union of Agricultural Workers in its contention that no public money should be granted for the erection, repair, or reconstruction of tied cottages. In my view a certain number of tied cottages are essential to the efficient farming of the countryside; but these should be erected and maintained to a proper standard by the agricultural industry … any public money available for the erection or repair of rural cottages should be used expressly for free cottages."
  One of the greatest objections to the proposal is that the tenant of a reconditioned service cottage will himself be making a contribution through taxation towards the cost of reconditioning a cottage from which he and his family can be summarily convicted. I think this is scandalous. The Bill removes the limited protection given to some farm workers in housing legislation passed by the previous Government. At present, a house built with the aid of a subsidy must be let to a worker on a restricted tenancy, that is a tenancy which does not give the occupant the full protection of the Rent Acts, such as the proof that alternative accommodation is available before possession can be
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  obtained, but which does necessitate application to a court for an order for possession.
  If this Bill passes into law, it will restore the right of employers summarily to eject a worker from a house built with the assistance of public money, not only without it being shown that accommodation is available, but without an order from a court. Members opposite may consider that justice, and helpful to the speeding up of the vital food production campaign. I regard it as a glaring injustice to a large body of honest workers, and for that reason I shall do my best in Committee to see that Clause 2 is expunged from the Bill.
  7.26 p.m.
  Brigadier F. Medlicott: I am glad to have the opportunity of following immediately after the speech of the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch). I am tempted by what he has said to throw aside all my notes and to confine myself to dealing with the extraordinary series of statements and mis-statements which he has addressed to the House.
  The hon. Gentleman made reference in particular to farmers desiring tied cottages so that they may be able to eject their workers from them. I can think of nothing further from the truth. The practical reason why landlords and farmers desire tied cottages is not to be able to eject the workers but to enable the workers to be on the spot and to perform their duties in the most convenient and efficient manner possible.
  The hon. Gentleman also stated that some of the provisions for the granting of Exchequer assistance only served to provide profits for the landlords and the farmers, and I think he even mentioned the Women's Institutes, although what profit Women's Institutes can get out of Exchequer grants of this kind I am unable to imagine. He said that the only person who did not profit from the reconditioning of a rural house was the worker. Surely he is the only person who does profit from it, because there is no financial profit to the owner of the house. The money which is made available by the Exchequer is added to by other money provided by the owner, and the person who receives the benefit is the farm worker who lives in the house, which is better than it was before the grant was made.

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  I would also like to take up the point, which he dismissed so airily, of comparison between agricultural service cottages and the several hundred thousand service cottages owned by the nationalised industries. There is no difference in principle at all, because the tenancy or occupation in both cases comes to an end with the service. The hon. Gentleman made a great deal of play about summary ejection, and we all have sympathy with those cases, which are, in fact, quite rare, where people are turned out in the manner that he has described.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: Is the hon. and gallant Member really telling the House that when a farm worker's employment comes to an end he is allowed to go on living in that service house?
  Brigadier Medlicott: That is the exact opposite of what I said. I said that in both cases the occupation comes to an end with the service. I could not put it more clearly.
  As far as individual examples are concerned—and I should deplore it very much if there were many examples of the kind to which the hon. Gentleman referred—I have had the privilege of representing an adjacent constituency to his for 13½ years and I have never, during that time, had one case brought to my notice in which my assistance has been sought in a matter of this kind. I believe that is due to the fact that the farmers in Norfolk have a sense of responsibility and try to do their best for their workers.
  Mr. Barnett Janner: The hon. and gallant Member is conversant with the legal position. Is it not a fact that what my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch), has said is correct, and that it is within the hon. and gallant Member's knowledge or he has overlooked the fact that in many instances people have been turned out of their homes, whether in his constituency or in any other constituency?
  Brigadier Medlicott: I am not for one moment denying that there have been cases where service tenants have been turned out. I was only stating that the instances are, happily, far fewer than have been suggested. None of us regards the system of service occupation as perfect, but it was accepted completely by the Labour Government during their six years of unqualified rule. They had it
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  in their power, at a time when they were able to pass some of the most complicated legislation that ever encumbered the Statute Book, to deal by a single Clause Bill—almost by a stroke of the pen—with the tied cottage and do away with it. I have some sympathy for the hon. Member for Norfolk, North, who has fought a very lone battle in this campaign, and had little assistance from the Government which he otherwise supported.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: Why subsidise it?
  Brigadier Medlicott: The Labour Government accepted the principle of the tied cottage, and yet in 1945, when they came into power, they deliberately allowed Exchequer grants under the Housing of Rural Workers Acts to lapse and they put nothing in their place. That is a glaring example of the way in which party dogma was allowed to obscure the practical aspect of the situation. In consequence, for many years agricultural workers have been deprived of the advantages which pre-war legislation, passed by Conservative Governments provided for their benefit.
  In common with other hon. Members, I received this morning letters from branches of the Agricultural Workers' Union, and I think the most amusing thing was the surprise shown by the hon. Member for Norfolk, North, when he heard of this surge of public opinion about Clause 2 (2). At the risk of hurting his feelings I must say that we cannot always accept him as spokesman for the entire agricultural industry. I know he will not mind—but perhaps he will mind—me saying that we must be factual about this. I understand from a statement he made recently that there are some 200,000 members of the Agricultural Workers' Union. On the other hand, there are 800,000 agricultural workers in this country, so that on those figures it looks as if the Union does not speak for more than one-quarter of them; or if we leave out the casual workers and take only the number of permanent workers, who are 600,000, the Union does not speak at most for more than one-third of the workers in the industry.
  Large numbers of agricultural workers are in favour of the principle of the tied cottage, because it gives them a home at a nominal rent and in no circumstances

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  does the rent exceed 6s. a week. The house is usually near to their place of work instead of at some distance from it, which would place them at great inconvenience in travelling to their work, as well as involving loss of valuable time.
  I do not think I have been honoured before by any official communication from branches of the Agricultural Workers' Union on matters of public expenditure. I certainly never heard from them when the Labour Government spent nearly £40,000,000 on groundnuts in Africa, or when that Government was spending public money upon the extravagances of the Festival of Britain. I only hear from them when the present Government proposes to spend money on making their homes more habitable and more pleasant. Surely there could be no greater evidence that some of this indignation is very near to being synthetic and manufactured.
  The hon. Member for Norfolk, North, and a number of other hon. Members on the other side of the House expressed indignation at public money being spent in this way. They seek to establish that there is an objection in principle to the spending of public money upon private property. In my opinion, it is about time that the owner of private property had a little in return.
  I have taken some trouble to find the figures which show what was the total amount of public money spent under the Housing of Rural Workers Act in the years 1926–1945. Starting at the modest figure of £8,000 in the first year, it rose steadily, which shows the good work that was being done, to a total in 1945 of £181,000, this is a very modest figure of public money placed in private hands when it is compared with the fact that last year private individuals, through Death Duties, contributed £188 million to the public Exchequer. Surely if it is justified on grounds of high finance to take away such a colossal figure from private individuals, it is reasonable and justifiable that a modest amount such as is proposed in this Bill should be returned to them, especially when it is for such a good purpose as this.
  In conclusion, I welcome this Bill. It is not only a valuable contribution towards the implementation of the Government's housing plans, but, in particular, as a representative of a rural
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  constituency I welcome the Clause 2, because I believe it will do something which many agricultural workers themselves will welcome, and that is to provide improved amenities and additional accommodation for them, for their wives and for their families.
  7.38 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: I want to take up one point which was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Norfolk, Central (Brigadier Medlicott). It ill becomes one of the party opposite to sneer at the Festival of Britain. We heard much of it before the Festival took place, but on the morning of the opening ceremony the great majority of Members opposite were present, resplendent in grey toppers and frock coats, and almost claiming full responsibility for the Festival. There is a very curious difference between the fact that we had so much sniping before the Festival and then so much get-together afterwards, with the claim that hon. Members opposite were really responsible, that it was a non-party matter, and all that sort of thing.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: Some of us never went there at all.
  Mr. Pannell: I take that from the hon. Gentleman, because he is not a very sociable person anyway.
  I wish to take up a remark made by the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. H. Brooke). I gave him notice that I was going to raise it, but I understand that this is the celebration of his wedding day, and it is much better that he should be elsewhere rather than listening to me. I want to take up the question of the calculation made about the subsidy, and if the Minister will follow me he can indicate whether I am in error or not.
  As I understand it, the Minister estimates the cost of building a dwelling of 950 square feet at £1,525. The annuity payable on a loan of that size for 60 years at 4¼ per cent. to the Public Works Loans Board would be £70 9s. 3d. The average amount spent on repairs according to the returns submitted to the Minister, and at a figure which I understand he accepts, is £12 making a total of £82 9s. 3d. The average rent charged by local authorities is £46 17s. 3d. Therefore, the difference is £35 12s. Three-quarters of £35 12s. is £26 14s., the Exchequer subsidy, and a quarter of

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  £35 12s., £8 18s., is the rate, fund subsidy.
  It will be appreciated that the figures of £12 for repairs per house per annum and £46 17s. 3d. for rent are average figures for the country. Bearing in mind that the responsibility for repairs of local authority houses varies considerably—I shall say something about the variation later—£12 per house is a completely phoney figure in this argument. The Minister claims that if more than £12 is spent on repairs the local authority is at liberty to increase the rent. Hence the annual rent of £46 17s. 3d. or 18s. a week, is the average rent actually charged, excluding rates.
  In introducing average repairs expenditure and average rents, the Minister has departed from what we understood was his pledge. He will remember that at Question time I accepted his good faith, and I will now put it no higher than that his understanding of what he said was not my understanding of the pledge he gave. We understood him to say that the new housing subsidy would offset the increase in the interest rates of the Public Works Loan Board chargeable to local authorities.
  These are the figures. The annuity payable half yearly to meet a loan of £1,525 over 60 years at 3 per cent. Per annum—the old rate—was £54 19s. 3d., and the annuity at 4½ per cent. is £70 9s. 3d., an increase of £15 10s. owing to the increase in the interest rate. Hon. Members should note that last figure. Over the whole period of the loan on a house at £1,525, the repayment at the old rate of interest would have been £3,928, and at the new rate it is £4,228, a difference of £930 because the interest rates have risen. That squares reasonably well with the figures given by my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) in connection with the £1,600 house. I notice that my hon. Friend got many interruptions; I shall be interested to see if anyone challenges my figures.
  The new Exchequer subsidy provided in the Bill is £26 14s., an increase of £10 4s. on the old Exchequer subsidy. The new rate subsidy is £8 18s., an increase of £3 8s. on the old rate subsidy. Therefore, the housing subsidies are increased by £13 12s.
  If we take these figures together, we find that the loss to the local authority
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  per house per annum, equating the recent interest charges increase with what we have given in subsidies, is £1 18s. per house, or 9d. increase in rent a week. Those are the figures that matter, and no one will deny them. I know the basis of the negotiations, and I have had the figures tested. I am not arguing from the point of view of whether the Minister did or did not carry out his promise. I am only arguing on the basis that the figures mean an increase of 9d. a week per council house under the new arrangement.
  Mr. H. Nicholls: The hon. Member is pre-supposing that the local authorities will attempt to build the same sort of house. If they take the lead given to them and build cheaper houses, they will save money.
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member betrays the fact that he knows nothing about the negotiations. I am quoting the Minister's own figures.
  With regard to subsidies, I congratulate the Minister on one thing; he has been able to convert his Parliamentary Secretary. On a previous occasion his Parliamentary Secretary "went to town" on subsidies. I find a curious echo of what he said in the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West.
  What the Parliamentary Secretary said on 14th July, 1948, was:
  "Now for the subsidy. So far as this is concerned, sooner or later, this Government, or the next, will have to face up to a serious problem because at present four out of every five houses are being subsidised by the State. Quite wealthy people are receiving a subsidy paid for by people without the same means. Surely, financial need should secure financial assistance and physical need should secure financial possession. There is no reason why Lord Nuffield should be able to get a council flat and that poor people like myself should have to contribute towards it. There is no reason why a Cabinet Minister with a salary of £5,000 should receive a subsidy and why I, with £1,000, should contribute to his rent"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1948; Vol. 453, c. 1241.]
  I do not know whether that is the limit of the hon. Gentleman's income, but I let that pass. At any rate, there it is.
  I understood it was common to both sides of the Chamber that we believed that council houses should now be let according to need and not according to income. I do not think there is any

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  argument about that, but it is obvious that the hon. Gentleman who is now the Parliamentary Secretary was arguing in another way. We have also had arguments from the Government benches tonight suggesting that people who can afford to buy should be given an opportunity of doing so.
  The Bill provides for an increase in the amount from rents for repairs—I want to address myself to the subject of repair problems—from £4 per house per annum to £8. This means either that rents will rise by £4 a year, or that additional deficits on the housing revenue account will accrue which will have to be made good by the rates fund, provided that the amount included in the rents for repairs is at the moment less than £8 per annum.
  I consulted some national statistics on repairs. I now quote from the Housing Statistics, 1949–50, of the Institute of Municipal Treasurers. The latest figures were published last Saturday, but they are likely to be based on estimates, and the figures which I have here are probably more realistic. The average contributions to the repairs fund of local authorities vary from £1 18s. per year, at the lowest, to £24 per year at the highest.
  Sir William Darling: Name the boroughs.
  Mr. Pannell: I shall come to that. I will deal also with the Minister's constituency and that of his Parliamentary Secretary. The £1 18s. a year contribution is at Cardiff, where a resolution was passed—one can imagine the complexion of the council—in favour of ceasing all housing repairs altogether. The highest contribution is at Wimbledon. I propose to take the intermediate instances in the course of my argument.
  Everybody knows that the matter of the repairs fund—I am speaking of the administrative effects of the Bill—has bedevilled housing finance for a large number of years, and it is as well that we spend a little time on this subject. The Minister has allowed an estimated figure of £12, taking the country as a whole. Housing repairs are terribly difficult to estimate. I want to quote from a document issued by the Leeds City Council to show what their experience is. The figures for the average cost of
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  repairs per tenancy went up from £4 12s. 5d. in 1946–47 to £15 18s. 1d. in 1949–50. The estimated figure which, I believe, they had in the normal estimates, on which their budget was based, was a figure of £5.
  Take, for instance, the constituency of the Minister. The Bromley Council allow a figure of £17 per tenancy for repairs. I know Bromley very well. I live in North-West Kent, and Bromley is a very good authority indeed. They allow £17. Next door, in Beckenham—the constituency of the Patronage Secretary—the figure is £10. If it was sought to score a debating point, one could reasonably ask whether Bromley were paying too much—the Minister, I think, will agree that the two places are comparable—or whether Beckenham were paying too little for repairs. I do not know. One would need to be on the spot to find out.
  It is rather curious that the figure for Beckenham this year has fallen to £8—I managed to get some rather more up-to-date figures before I came to the House today. The figure which is allowed in Wallasey—the constituency of the Parliamentary Secretary—is £6. Actually, in the year for which they estimated £6, they expended £8. In Wimbledon, as I have said, the figure is £24, and with regard to Cardiff, in spite of their resolution to spend only £1 18s. a year on housing repairs, they spent in the past year £7 14s.
  Why does this sort of thing happen? I come back again to the figure for Leeds, because I am trying to prove that an average figure of £12 a year is no good for the basis of the argument, and that was the figure which was used in the negotiations. In the current year, the City of Leeds spent £264,877 on repairs to 26,647 tenancies, which represents an expenditure of about £10 a tenancy. The normal contribution, on their estimates of £5, should have been about £132,000. This average figure of £12 simply plays off one authority against another.
  We have heard today from the Minister of the wide dissimilarity in local government, and I believe that I should carry the Minister with me, and certainly the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling), when I refer to the Minister's statement that the glory of local government is that they please themselves.
  Sir W. Darling: Why differentiate?
  Mr. Pannell: Yes—why is there this wide differentiation?
  Sir W. Darling: Competence and income.
  Mr. Pannell: It is not quite that. Would the hon. Member say that a Conservative council which decided to do no repairs whatever was a competent council and should let their buildings rot?
  Sir W. Darling: They were well built.
  Mr. Pannell: Take the practice of many authorities in the matter of repairs. Some authorities do no repairs at all. Some do all the repairs, inside and out and of every kind. Some provide materials, leaving the tenants to provide the labour, and some provide the labour if the tenant provides the materials. Some, of course, repair and redecorate at regular intervals, and some, like those represented in the main by hon. Members opposite, repair at very irregular intervals indeed.
  That is the story about housing repairs, and yet we know—it is reasonable to bring it into the argument—that with regard to the pre-war houses, the reason for the increased rents up and down the country has not been based on capital costs, because the money was raised many years ago. The increased rents have arisen for most council properties from the mounting costs of repairs. Consequently, when people speak rather glibly about pooling all the housing accounts and giving a flat rent to the lot, they should bear in mind that if they consider that against the high rate of interest or the high cost which they now have to find, they have to consider it against the mounting repair costs of the older houses.
  I have looked very closely into the question of housing pools, and I should take most local authority representatives with me when I say that one could establish quite a good case for treating them as two separate types of problem.
  Sir W. Darling: And sell some of them.
  Mr. Pannell: I shall come to the question of selling, because I do not think the hon. Member has thought about that problem any more than he has done about the repairs.
  I know the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South. I listened to him in a
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  remarkable debate in 1938 at the Institute of Municipal Treasurers, when he debated the rising curve of public expenditure. But, of course, he likes those emotionally toned question-begging phrases. Consequently, he referred to the burden of the rate as if rates were something he should not have to bear, but that—
  Sir W. Darling: I would point out to the hon. Member that I did not suggest the title of that interesting debate, in which I was such a distinguished protagonist. It was suggested by the Institute of Municipal Treasurers. If the hon. Member would remember, I carried the honours of the debate against my protagonist.
  Mr. Pannell: Most people referred to the wit with which the hon. Member carried it, but generally speaking it was felt that the wit rather outshone the material. I believe that the word "masked" is the word which my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) always uses.
  I want now to come to the sale of council houses. It does not seem to me that we have yet faced up to the basic difficulty of dispensing with property which has for a long period been subsidised by the rates. One can see the muddleheadedness that creeps in. I do not want to refer disparagingly to a maiden speech, although it was a very controversial one, but the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins), who made his maiden speech earlier today, seemed to assume that local authorities should sell those houses at the outstanding balance on the books.
  Mr. E. Partridge: Oh, no.
  Mr. Pannell: I do not know whether the hon. Member was present—
  Mr. Partridge: Yes, the whole time.
  Mr. Pannell: It is quite possible that the hon. Member did not hear, any more than the hon. Member for Dulwich knew what he was talking about. Quite apart from the fact that I listened—one need hardly say this—I have no prejudice against owning a home of one's own. It so happens that I live in a ward of a local authority which has just had a resounding victory in the Kent County

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  Council elections. Some 95 per cent. of the people are home owners, and they now know where their true interests lie.
  I started to buy a house of my own. There is a greater tradition of home ownership in the south than there is, perhaps, in the north. We ought to ask ourselves one or two of the questions that will spring from the matter of the sale of council houses. We have to make up our minds whether it is merely the outstanding amount on the books or what other figure for which we are going to sell them. I am assuming for instance that the Government will go through with this, and I know full well that the Minister must endorse any schemes that are put up to him.
  We must ask ourselves whether these houses are to be sold freehold or leasehold. That is a fair question, and I suggest that, if sold at all, estate property that is acquired from public funds, and particularly property which has been subsidised, should revert eventually to public ownership. If any sales are contemplated, the properties should be disposed of by leasehold for a period of years. Miscellaneous properties, however—I refer to requisitioned properties which their owners have subsequently been willing to sell—that have been acquired by local authorities, might for administrative convenience and tidiness be sold—I say that straightaway.
  I am trying to argue about municipal estates. Some pre-war houses built under the 1919 scheme will be debt free, apart from site costs, in less than 30 years, the 1933 houses in 35 years and the 1934 houses in 37 years. At the end of those periods these houses should be good for another 30 or 40 years.
  The post-war houses will be saddled with loan charges for a period of about 60 years. It seems to me that the Minister, when considering any scheme, should make it a period not exceeding 50 years leasehold, possibly with a ground rent. I am using the figure of £1,525, with a ground rent not exceeding £7 10s. per annum. I shall not go through all the statistics with regard to that, but it seems appropriate.
  Another question we might ask is at what value should these houses be sold. Many hon. Members opposite have served on local authorities and, as such,
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  are public trustees, and in this sense we are public trustees tonight. We should think of the administrative effects of the Bill, as well as its main principles. Should we sell at sitting tenant valuation? I take it that the Bill says "no," because it removes the obligation for getting the highest price in a limited area. Should we sell at vacant possession value, or refer to the relation of cost, or a figure which bears some relationship to all three?
  In inducing people to buy council houses, the offer to sell must be made attractive for reasons which are not made here, and the applicant, if he is a council tenant, will expect something more than he is enjoying at the moment. All council rents are subsidised. What does the council tenant expect to get out of this? From the viewpoint of security no one is in a more fortunate position. Nothing could be more secure than being in a council house.
  Mr. Partridge: Subject to a week's notice.
  Mr. Pannell: Again we have that ridiculous assertion made. It is necessary to take tenants through the county courts, but do councils get rid of them at a week's notice? Of course they never do, because of the effect of public opinion and of political parties. It is a lot of nonsense to suggest that the tenants are in the same position as the tenants of rack renting landlords. A form of public responsibility goes with the local authority landlordship and, when all is said and done, members of the council are trustees for the ratepayers. Why should we have this foolish remark made about a week's notice?
  In the main, council tenants are in subsidised houses at present and, whatever the right hon. Gentleman says about the position of rent control and the fact that many people are in a private tenancy, are these living at too cheap a rate in his view? [Interruption.] I will take interruption from hon. Members who have listened a long time to the debate. As I understood the Minister, when dealing with the matter of subsidies, he said that people should remember that in addition to council tenants receiving subsidies, there is a great mass of people who are tenants of private owners who are not giving an adequate remuneration to the private landlord. I think I have fairly interpreted what he said.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: That is not what the hon. Member said before.
  Mr. Pannell: My memory is more recent of what I just said than that of the right hon. Gentleman. Unless the council tenant is offered a house cheaper than he is getting it now, what attraction is there to buy it at all?
  Sir Jocelyn Lucas: He can keep a pet dog or a canary in a private house, but not in a council house.
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member speaks as a professional dog breeder; I read the article in "Picture Post" about the hon. Member keeping hundreds of Sealyhams running round his residence. The public authority should insist if it has to sell, upon leasehold. We have to ask ourselves which houses should be offered for sale, if any, whether whole estates have to be offered, part estates, on a piecemeal basis, terrace houses, or flats. When we talk about mixed estates, I would inform hon. Members that I can remember the Law Land Estate at Walthamstow. It was a private estate all owned by one person who had the greatest difficulty in stopping enthusiastic tenants painting the outside of their residences either black and white or like a Scotsman's kilt. It should be borne in mind that if one or two here and there are offered for sale administrative costs go up.
  To whom should they be sold? To tenants only, to sitting tenants, as houses become empty and available? Who should decide it—
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: A Labour councillor.
  Mr. Pannell: My hon. and learned Friend says, "A Labour councillor," all councils are being won by Labour now. Any scheme should satisfy other conditions, such as whether the owner should dispose of the property and the council buy it back again at about 5 per cent. per annum, plus improvements at valuation, and that the purchaser should keep it in a state of repair comparable to that at which it has been kept. I do not know what would be done in Cardiff, where they spend nothing on repairs at all.
  Sir W. Darling: £1 18s.
  Mr. Pannell: Even the hon. Member would not find that would go very far. It has to be borne in mind that, whatever the obligations of the best private
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  landlord, local authorities have special obligations and a statutory duty to let at reasonable rents. It is often said that the local authority has certain advantages compared with the private landlord, but they have to take on obligations of hardship, sometimes of anti-social tenants and the rehousing of people because of children. This is a health service as well as a social service. No such duty lies on the private landlord—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I think that is true; the private landlord takes in whom he wishes, but the local authority has to consider all sorts of social obligations which do not lie on the private landlord.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: There are duties in life other than legal duties.
  Mr. Pannell: I was speaking, for the purposes of argument, of a legal duty. The moral duty also lies on a local authority. Hon. Members on both sides of this House, the type of people who go into public life giving their time voluntarily, are of course people moved by moral impulses.
  We should also bear in mind when we consider this matter of selling houses to people at the top of the list that there are hundreds and thousands of dwellings in places like Leeds, back-to-back dwellings built in the old days by the predecessors of hon. Gentlemen opposite—[HON. MEMBERS: "And the Liberals."]—certainly not our predecessors. The people occupying those houses are being taxed and rated today to provide accommodation very much superior to that which they can hope to enjoy themselves for many years.
  I would remind the House of what my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines), said not so long ago. I hope that sooner or later we will consider housing not only in the concept of municipal housing, but in the general concept of all the housing of all the people. I know of the arguments about houses going into ruin because they are not properly repaired, and all that sort of thing. But I am not in favour of rent increases to owners of slum property. Whatever case there may have been for the idea of compensation at a certain rate for the nationalised industries, there is not the same argument for the same rate of compensation to be paid in such cases as that.

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  I am in favour of the extension of municipal control of all letted properties to provide housing repairs even to the extent of taking them over. We should not forget that we are dealing not only with a great human service and a great health service, but also with something that is second only to the unity of the family itself, the largest and most important single element, with all that is best in the life of the country, the unit older than the State and which stands apart from the State—the preservation of the decent dignity of British family life.
  Mr. Partridge: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, he accused me of saying something foolish because I was taking up what my hon. Friend said in his maiden speech. He was talking about rising rents and a week's notice in the same context. Would the hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell me what happens to a council tenant if he gets his rent arbitrarily raised by as much as 10s., as my hon. Friend mentions, and cannot or will not pay it—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): Order. Squadron Leader Cooper.
  8.12 p.m.
  Squadron Leader A. E. Cooper: We always enjoy the speeches of the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell). I do not know whether he reached the same standard he set for himself in his speech on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill but, nevertheless, we did enjoy his fireside chat, punctuated as it was by innumerable interruptions. I mean him no discourtesy and I shall try to deal with a number of points which he made later.
  It is rather curious, but this Bill has not been subject to any intensive lobbying on the part of local authority organisations and, in consequence, I think the fears with regard to deficits which hon. Members opposite think will arise are somewhat ill-founded. I hope to deal with some of those points later, but on the question of pooled rents which the hon. Member for Leeds, West, raised, if I took his meaning correctly, he is not in favour of local authorities pooling the rents over the whole of their council estates.
  Mr. Pannell: I would look at it on its merits for each local authority.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: I would incline to that view myself, but I think it wrong to pool rents over a wide number of houses built at differing times. We must, however, criticise the hon. Member for Leeds, West, on his attempt to prove that the figure of the Minister for repairs is wrong. It is difficult to fix a proper figure, because estimates vary all over the country, and even substantially within a particular borough. But I would say from my experience that as a sound and practical figure the one put into the present Bill will stand up to quite close analysis.
  This debate has shown that the Labour Party are in considerable difficulty on the question of housing. During six years they failed to solve the problem, particularly during the first five years when they had an overwhelming Parliamentary majority and could have done anything they chose. Now they are jealous that my right hon. Friend is showing considerable zeal in tackling this very serious social problem. Hon. Members opposite continually jibed at us about our target of 300,000 houses, and because we did not achieve it in the first three or four months we were pilloried all round the countryside as having broken our Election promise. It is flattering that the Labour Party should imagine that we could fulfil that objective in the first three or four months of office.
  My right hon. Friend has shown, however, that we mean business. Already the figures he has quoted this week in the country show that completions are increasing at a very satisfactory rate—and that during the worst building period of the year, namely, the winter months. In any event, why should hon. Gentleman opposite suppose we would find it difficult to reach a target of 300,000 simply because they themselves were not able to go above 200,000. Sir Richard Coppock, the General Secretary of the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives, writing in the "Socialist Outlook" in June, 1950, said:
  "I am sure the industry can build at least 350,000 houses a year in addition to all other building required."
  So I think the task we have set ourselves is well within the capacity of the building industry at the present time.
  Now the charge is that in consequence of the increase of money rates rents will

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  go up. But they have not. The subsidies now proposed by my right hon. Friend have taken care of that and hon. Gentlemen opposite, including the former Parliamentary Secretary, should bear in mind that in 1948 interest rates were increased from 2½ per cent. to 3 per cent. and no extra subsidy was given—
  Mr. Lindgren: The hon. and gallant Gentleman will surely agree that the subsidy was agreed assuming a rate of 3⅛ per cent.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon. Member is quite wrong, as he often is on these points. The subsidies were fixed some time before. They were fixed, I believe, in 1945 and building costs had already gone up and the point of my statement is—and the hon. Gentleman can wriggle how he pleases—that council rents, in consequence of the increase of the Public Works Loan Board rate from 2½ per cent. to 3 per cent., went up all over the country.
  Mr. Lindgren: I will deal with that in my reply.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon Member should not worry about that, and neither should the Labour Party. I will quote the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), who said this in the House when he was Minister of Health:
  "Of course, people quarrel about rents. Whenever rents go up 1s. or 2s. there is a row. That is human nature. Everyone wants the product he is selling to go up in price, and the product he is buying to fall in price. No hardship is suffered at all by virtue of the fact that the local authorities have decided to raise rents. As these people are living in subsidised houses, it is reasonable that they should pay a slight increase in rent rather than the other people should pay an increase in rates in order to keep those rents down."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July, 1949; Vol. 466, c. 1822.]
  That is a very different story from that told to us today by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale, and it is a very different story to that now being sent out from this House today as part of the propaganda of the Labour Party. Maybe, it is because we are getting close to the local government elections.
  Mr. Lindgren: You are getting worried.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: On the contrary, we are not getting worried at all.
  Mr. Lindgren: You are being beaten.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The increase in the ego of hon. Gentlemen opposite may not be so great in a few weeks' time.
  Mr. Lindgren: It may be higher.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: I come now to the important part of the Bill and this question of house ownership. I am quite unrepentant on this subject. I believe that house ownership is one of the pillars of our social structure in this country. I believe that it creates a proper situation of strength and stability, which can only be for the enduring peace and prosperity of our nation as a whole.
  Mr. Lindgren: And the unemployed?
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon. Gentleman is not given to very intelligent remarks on the subject of housing. I would point out to him that, whether people are unemployed or not—and there were three million unemployed when his party was in power in 1929–31—people still had to pay their rents.
  The real trouble which we have got into at present is due to the rigid figure imposed upon local authorities in the past six years for house building in relation to private licences. I am sure that the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) will agree. Perhaps it is not quite so easy in the London County Council areas as it is in other areas, and I do not profess to know what are the housing conditions of the L.C.C. area.
  In many areas, however, it is the fact that a considerable number of people who are housed in subsidised council houses today enjoy quite substantial incomes, and could properly—and, indeed, would like to—own their own homes. What we have to do is to encourage these people by all the means in our power to buy their houses if they can. Apart from the real value of that process to themselves as individuals, there is also the very considerable value to the national economy, and we must also bear in mind that the more houses we build that are subsidised, either by national taxation or by local rates, the more the general burden on the nation is increased, and that a situation can arise in which it may be quite impossible for the nation to support these very large subsidies.

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  It is within the knowledge of this House that one village or township in Scotland, Whitburn, I think it is called, had to refuse its allocations last year because the subsidy burden was too much for it to bear. It is a fact that, if we could sell some of our Council houses to existing tenants—their housing needs would be already established, because if they were in occupation of a house, obviously, they must have established a housing need in order to be there—we should be able to build more houses without increasing the subsidy level and performing a very considerable social good.
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is making out the case that there are any amount of people whose income is such that they do not need to live in subsidised houses. Why sell them a house which is under the subsidy, then?
  Squadron Leader Cooper: I cannot believe that it is the intention of the Minister that, in selling these houses, any moneys paid over to public funds will be, shall we say, lost in that way. I think that a fair market price is the price which will have to be fixed in selling these houses, and that would be my understanding of the proper way to do it.
  There is only one point in the Bill to which I want to refer, and on which I hope the Minister will give an answer at a later stage. It concerns the period of four years for disqualification before sale. The period of four years is mentioned in Section 43 of the Housing Act, 1949, but the Building Materials and Housing Act, 1945, first contained this provision, which was originally fixed for a period of four years, and was subsequently extended by the Housing Act, 1949, to a period of eight years.
  Under that Section of the Act, it was possible to take a house under private licence and have a period of only one year in which one was disqualified from selling, but here we have a positive disqualification for four years. I am advised that, administratively, the difference between these two provisions would be untidy, and that there is a case for bringing the period of disqualification into line with that in the earlier Act.
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  I commend this Bill to the House. I think it is a further step forward in the housing policy of the Government, who have shown enterprise, zeal and initiative in faithfully fulfilling this vital Conservative pledge. Socialists may not like it, but we shall succeed in our task, and posterity will revere the present Minister as the man who cut out "red" tape and got on with the job of building houses for the people.
  8.27 p.m.
  Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: I have listened to practically the whole of this debate, and certainly with interest to the speech of the Minister in introducing this Bill. I would like to say to him that I think he has been extremely lucky. Whether it is because of the adroit way in which he introduced the Bill, and, in that process, glossed over what, in my opinion, is one of its most important provisions—Clause 3, relating to the sale of houses—I do not know, but one thing has been made very evident, and that is that the Minister himself was very careful not to say too much about Clause 3, while the little that he did say was not in all respects correct. All his followers on the opposite benches have also taken great care not to make any real reference to that particular Clause.
  I am desirous of dealing only with that part of the Bill, and, so far as that provision is concerned, my submission is that this is a very bad piece of legislation indeed. I believe that it has been forced upon the Government by reason of their extravagant promises at the General Election. It is very much like transport and iron and steel, in regard to which the Government are now being obliged to redeem their pledges, which are of ill-service to the country, and which the Tory political paymasters and their supporters are now demanding should be carried out.
  Clause 3 of the Bill clearly stems from the silly and false slogan of "setting the builders free." Last November the Minister announced the 50–50 rule in which private licences for the building of private enterprise houses were to be in the same ratio as for the number of council houses built, the option being left entirely to the local authorities as to what extent they carried out that rule.

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  That rule, in itself, was a most unjust and regressive provision, yet—and I would like the Minister to observe this—it is perfectly clear that it did not satisfy private enterprise builders. Since then local authorities have found out that public opinion is absolutely against the 50–50 rule. It is perfectly clear—and I am sure that the Minister, who is a very astute Parliamentarian and a very acute observer of what goes on around him, is aware of it—that the aim of the Government is to get rid of all building controls and to hand the community over completely and without protection to vested interests.
  It is my view, and I think it is a view which the public will register more and more as they appreciate what this Bill means, that this Bill is the halfway house to that goal. The method is perfectly simple although it is calculated. It is: get the houses out of council ownership first and then it becomes a simple step to setting the builders free completely as the Tories promised the builders they would do. The Tory Party will pay very dearly for this policy and for disregarding the nation's housing interests. Indeed, they have already received the country's verdict in the recent county council elections and when the local elections come along they will find to their loss that that view will be emphatically re-affirmed.
  This Bill is absolutely irrelevant to the most urgent need in housing. People today are chiefly preoccupied with the provision of houses for the waiting list. Yet this Bill defeats that very object. In fact, the Bill is an aggravation of the 50–50 rule announced by the Minister in November. It is, and it will so work out in Tory-dominated councils, a device to get as far as possible a 100 per cent. sale of council houses. Where there is a Labour majority, of course, the situation will be safe in the future, as it has been in the past. But where there is a Tory majority not only will the 50–50 rule be enforced but Clause 3, which is concerned with the disposal of council houses, will also be fully applied.
  I have had experience of the 50–50 rule in my own constituency in Gloucester. For the time being I have been able to rouse public opinion and in that way I have prevented the application of that rule, but I am perfectly satisfied that if, after the coming municipal elections, there is still a Tory majority on the
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  Gloucester City Council this 50–50 rule will be enforced. I say that for this reason. As soon as the provision of the new rule of 50–50 was announced the Gloucester Tory housing chairman at once declared publicly that the rule would be fully in operation this year.
  With reference to that part of the Minister's letter issued in November last year which dealt with the sale by councils of their houses, the leading Tory alderman on the Gloucester City Council said publicly that he was in favour of the sale of all council houses. So it is perfectly clear what the result is going to be under Clause 3 of this Bill where there is a Tory majority council.
  It is said that sitting tenants will get these houses. No doubt a few sitting tenants will be able to buy some of these houses, but most sitting tenants cannot afford to do so. It is nonsense to say that this is a provision which will enable occupying tenants to acquire their houses. We have to go further and give them the means of doing so. The result will be that Tory-dominated councils who insist on selling their properties will sell to the highest bidder.
  I want to take the Minister up on this, because he really was not fair about it. When he was talking about the sale of these houses I suggested to him that it was not only tenants who would be able to buy these houses, but that these houses could be sold by councils if they so desired to anyone apart from tenants. The Minister denied that, but when I attempted to draw him later he was not forthcoming about it. The fact is that the sale of these houses would not be limited to sitting tenants at all. The power is conferred on and vested in the councils to sell to whomsoever they desire. But even if, in the first stages of these sales by Tory councils, some degree of conscience were to apply, it would not be long before the normal process of getting the highest price reasserted itself.
  In any case, the Minister has placed himself in a very difficult position, because he has made the term during which any conditions of price and rent can apply merely one of four years. Four years is nothing in the lifetime of the housing situation of this country. It means that at the end of that period those houses will be left completely free to be dealt with in any way that the owners desire,

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  whether it be in rent, or price or any condition whatsoever. The only exception is in relation to maintenance and use, and that does not go to the gravamen of the matter, namely, the practical acquisition by tenants of their houses.
  Another matter which the Minister mentioned and about which he was wrong, if he will forgive me saying so, related to the repeal of Section 79 (3) of the 1936 Act. He said, "Why should I leave that provision about best price and best rent?" I quite agree with him there; I agree with its removal. But what he failed to tell the House was that its removal makes no difference whatever, except that it takes away the statutory obligation now resting upon the council. The council, notwithstanding that repeal, can still insist upon the best price or the best rent.
  Therefore, the removal of the prohibition as to price or rent really achieves nothing. What protection is that against a Tory-dominated council? It leaves councils virtually dictators of price and rent, just as they are left to act on their own sweet will over the 50–50 allocation of houses. With all respect to the Minister, that is simply legislating confusion and caprice.
  The Bill clearly removes the safeguards of the 1936 Act. It is no use the Minister saying that this position has always been the same, because that is not correct. I venture the view that the Minister will now give his general consent and councils will be left free to deal with the houses as if they were ordinary investors in property.
  We have heard something about the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts. In these Acts there is a very important provision, which is that anyone who buys a house must reside or intend to reside in the house; but there is no such protective provision in this Bill. The startling and indefensible fact is that under the Bill, after four years in any case and at once if the council does not impose the conditions of price or rent, the house is freed of all obligations except, maybe, use or maintenance—and even then there is a question whether or not it is imposed by the Minister or the local authority.
  I should like to ask the Minister whom the sale of council houses is to benefit. It will certainly not solve the housing
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  problem. One of the things it will do in relation to the housing problem is seriously to reduce the number of houses for letting. If that is the fact—and I think it undeniably is so—it is perfectly clear that the sale of council houses will not act to the benefit of the housing problem. I do not know whether the Minister realises it, but the present yearly pool of council houses exceeds the number that local authorities can build, and the sale by the local authorities is at once going to diminish and will ultimately end that particular pool.
  That means that the poor people who are applicants upon long and stretching waiting lists will then have to wait until Domesday before they have any prospect of getting a house. What is the bright idea behind the Government's policy? Is it to enable the local authorities to make money? Is it to make it easier to get a house? Or is it to get rid of the housing subsidy? I should like the Minister, or whoever is to reply to this debate, to tell us something about that.
  Is it not really the Minister's desire to get rid of the housing subsidy? Is this the Tory end of the wedge, which we have seen already in the case of food subsidies? Is it to relieve the local authorities of the cost of maintenance and repairs? I do ask the Minister, just for a slight interlude, to repent and be frank about what are the Government's real intentions.
  One of the last speakers from the benches opposite spoke about tenants buying their own houses and about house ownership. The average applicant on the housing waiting lists is unable to shoulder the heavy burden of buying a house. First of all, he has to accept these disabilities. He gets no subsidy at all. As soon as he touches the house all question of subsidy ends and, indeed, if any instalments of subsidy have been paid the probability is that he will be made to pay for them in the purchase price. He has a high interest to pay on his mortgage because of the operations of the Government in increasing the rate of interest, and he has to deal with a building society to whom he will probably be making payments for 20 years or more.
  If it is argued that the council can lend him the money, then where is the need or the sense of the sale at all? If the

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  council are to advance the money there can be no sense in this idea of a sale. In addition, the tenant has to find a deposit for the purchase.
  Mr. Raymond Gower rose—
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: I will give way in a moment.
  The purchaser has legal costs to pay, he has to face heavy rates and heavy taxes—and it has been estimated publicly, and not denied by the Government, that it would cost the tenant, who is usually a working man or salary earner, between 65s. and 75s. a week for years and years in order to enable him to purchase the house. House ownership is in itself all right. I do not complain about it for a moment. Nor is private building objectionable. I do not complain about that, either. But I do complain about them both, on the basis that the primary need for houses is first provided. That is the very principle which the Bill negates.
  I do not want to detain the House, as I know there are others who want to speak. In conclusion, in my submission the Bill is a grave and anti-social step to take at this time. It is hopelessly and heedlessly premature and it should be rejected, as I hope it will.
  Mr. Gower: The hon. and learned Gentleman said that there is no difference if the council lend the money. Would he not agree that the mere acquisition of a house, the ownership of a house, gives the occupier a greater interest in it and, other things being equal, is calculated to produce a superior type of citizen?
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: I do not agree at all. That is begging the whole question. What I was saying is that the vast majority of tenants cannot afford to buy their house. In any case, the transaction of the loan is merely a matter of bookkeeping. If the council are to advance the money I cannot see the sense of the sale or why it should take place at all, because it will throw upon the purchasing tenant a burden which I do not think he can possibly sustain—something like 75s. a week.
  8.49 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Allan: I wish to intervene very briefly on the question of subsidies being weighted in favour of building flats—a fact which has
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  been deplored by one or two hon. Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell).
  I regard the building of flats as essential to the solution of our housing problem, particularly in London and more particularly in my constituency. The difficulty which we face in Paddington is that of rehousing perhaps only temporarily, but certainly for a period, large numbers of people so that the houses in which they are now living can be re-built or the area re-developed in any way decided.
  We in Paddington have whole streets of houses which were condemned before the war but in which people are still living because there is no alternative accommodation for them; and, of course, during all this time the property is deteriorating more and more. There is no Member for any London division who has not had experience of the pathetic and appalling conditions which obtain in such areas.
  I realise that it was hoped that the new towns might accommodate those unfortunate people and give the local authorities an opportunity of re-planning and re-building the areas needing it, but it seems to me that two things are working to prevent that. The first is that the estimated annual influx of population into greater London is about 50,000 people, which is about the number envisaged in the new towns themselves. This means that, even if the new towns were to be completed quickly, there would be no easing of the pressure on Central London. Over and above that there is the reluctance of people to leave London to go into the new towns. That has been remarked upon by a number of Members. So this influx into London, which is not being syphoned off into the new towns, is going on at the same time as the property in Central London is deteriorating quite rapidly.
  The answer must be to have flats in the centre of London—flats, a block of which may, perhaps, house a whole street of people; and then that street area could be redeveloped. The answer certainly cannot be the type of development which ruins towns and squanders land, because, as my right hon. Friend mentioned, the shortage of land is now becoming acute, and if the conflicting demands made on it by industry, by agriculture, and by housing continue at the present rate, we

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  shall be faced with what has been described as "land bankruptcy" in five years. So the answer must be to build in Central London on a large scale. By that I mean, tall buildings; and that, of course, involves the use of expensive sites and means high rents.
  My right hon. Friend, in opening this debate, said that nowadays the notional rent was 18s. I know quite well that the notional rent is merely used for purposes of calculation, but again I give an instance from my own constituency, of how in Paddington there are people who are being offered new accommodation and having to pay anything between 40s. and 50s. Without that subsidy those rents would be very much higher. Already people in great housing need cannot afford these rents. So it seems, if we are going to solve our problem—and I am talking locally—our problem in Paddington, we have to have that subsidy to enable us to rehouse our people there, so that the condemned areas can be replanned and rebuilt. So far from deploring the fact that this puts a premium on the building of flats, I would welcome this Measure for that reason; and also I should be very glad to see the Minister doing anything else which would encourage the building of flats in areas such as Paddington.
  One of the ways I would suggest is by encouraging building over land already used for some other purpose. Goods-yards, of course, immediately come to mind. In Paddington we have a goods-yard of 16½ acres which could very easily be built over without spoiling its existing use. There are many difficulties, I know; but they can be overcome. In fact, one of the most obvious is already being overcome by the use of diesel shunting engines. That process, with high buildings, seems to be the essential answer, because modern engineering techniques and modern repetitive methods in the building industry make it possible to construct quite high buildings in London at relatively low cost. Again, there are many difficulties, some of which are of no importance, but others of which can be overcome if there is a sense of urgency and imagination, but I think that at last we have a Minister who has a sense of urgency and imagination commensurate with the problem he has to tackle.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. J. A. Sparks: The hon. Member for Paddington, South (Mr. R. Allan), has made a very interesting and important point on the housing problem of London and the Greater London area, but the solution he proposes would accentuate rather than relieve that problem, because all those who are experienced in this respect would view with grave concern his suggested development of massive blocks of flats in Central London. In fact, the reverse is the policy we must pursue if we are ever to reduce the housing problem of London, together with its traffic congestion, and many other problems besides.
  Up till now the hon. Member has been the only one to mention the new towns, about which I want to say a word or two, because this Bill has a very important connection with their housing development. The hon. Gentleman complained that, although the new towns were supposed to provide a great outlet for the decentralisation of people from London, they were not proving as successful as was originally anticipated. The point is that the new towns on the circumference of Greater London are in the very earliest stages of their development. They are now beginning to develop an equilibrium and a momentum in the construction of, particularly, houses and factories to draw from the central region of London those living in congested conditions. The Minister ought to be quite sure that this Bill will help the new towns to develop their housing construction in order to relieve the problem of congestion in London.
  There again, I do not think the Minister is going far enough. The development corporations of the new towns are faced with a much more difficult problem than the local authorities in housing development, because they do not get the benefit of the local rate subsidy for housing. The Minister merely contributes to them the Exchequer contribution, on the same basis as he contributed to an ordinary local authority. As a consequence, the rise in the rate of interest charged by the Public Works Loan Board to development corporations for loans for housing purposes, is, to some extent, causing a very serious rise in the rents which the development corporations are having to charge.

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  I wish to mention one or two figures to illustrate this very serious trend, because if it continues unabated, if something is not done to ease the problem, the new towns will not provide that great measure of relief which we expected from them in the decentralisation of the population of London. The Minister said that the subsidies under this Bill were based upon a notional cost of an average three-bedroom type house, and he gave the notional figure of £1,525. That may be the average notional cost of the standard house, but in the new towns and, in particular, in the greatest geographical area of southern England, the average capital cost of a three-bedroom house is not £1,525 but £2,050.
  As a consequence, the subsidies which are now advanced under this Bill to local authorities and also extended to development corporations to make good the increased cost of housing loans, fall far short of doing that, because the rise in the interest charges on a house costing an average of £2,050 is far greater than the rise in the interest charges on a loan for the national type house of £1,525; so it follows that so far as the new town development corporations are concerned, after allowance is made for the subsidies contained in the Bill, the rent of an average type house in the new towns will rise from 33s. 7d. per week to 37s. 8d. per week, an increase of 4s. 1d. a week.
  If we compare that increased rent with the rent of the same type of house, three years earlier, when building costs were lower and when the average cost of this type of house was £1,650 and the average rent paid was 22s. 3d. a week, we have this position. In the new towns where the rent of an average three-bedroom type house in 1949, after due allowance for the subsidy received from the Exchequer and taking into consideration the rate of interest on loans advanced three years ago, the rent was then 22s. 3d. a week net, it is now on the basis of the subsidies plus the increased loan charges, 37s. 8d. a week, a rise of 15s. 5d. a week in three years. Therefore, I feel that the Minister should go further than he has done in this Bill to give to the development corporations a greater measure of financial support than he has done.
  I cannot understand why this Bill should have been brought forward at all.
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  There was a much simpler way of dealing with this problem. The Minister says that the object of the Bill is to make good to local authorities the increased cost of housing loans. Instead of evolving a Bill and putting Government Departments and local authorities to endless trouble in working out the new subsidy scales and readjusting costs, a simple directive could have been sent out by the Government to the Public Works Loan Board that, in future, they should advance housing loans to local authorities and development corporations on the previous rate of interest. This would have solved many problems, and there would have been no need for a Bill of this description. But the Government have seen fit to go the longest way round, and, in addition, they have fallen far short of the real solution of this problem.
  I should like to make one or two points in connection with the proposed permission to local authorities to sell existing houses. If the Minister is not very careful he will make the housing problem in London and built-up areas far more difficult of solution than it is. I tried by way of an interjection to put my point to the Minister on this matter, but he failed to appreciate the substance of the point I was putting. Let me put it in this way. I will take my own constituency, which is typical of most of the London and Greater London constituencies. We are a built-up area without any land for the erection of more houses or flats. We have a mixture of flats and housing development, and when a man and his wife and three or four children are put into a house there comes a time when the family grows up and leaves the home. We frequently find then that a three-bedroomed dwelling is occupied by two adults.
  It is quite wrong, in a congested area, whether they be council or privately owned dwellings, that there should be a lot of unused accommodation. The local authority, when it owns houses, has the power to transfer that adult or those two adults from a three-bedroom house to a one-bedroom or a two-bedroom flat, thereby leaving the three-bedroom house vacant for a family on the housing list. Thus there is a certain amount of flexibility in transferring families from overcrowded conditions to larger accommodation.
  If local authorities are to be permitted to alienate their houses and offer them

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  for sale, they lose control and are restricted in transferring families on their housing list to larger accommodation when that which they occupy is too small. I believe that the principle of the sale of council houses in a built-up area is a bad principle and will accentuate the housing problem.
  Again, why should the Government seek to prevent local authorities, if they accept the idea of local authorities selling council houses, selling them at the market value and permit the person who buys them in four years' time to sell them at the market value and to profiteer as a result? Anyone who understands the housing problem in London will not deny that if a council house is sold today the tenant, in four years' time, will be able to sell that house free and unfettered from any control by the local authority at a substantial sum above the figure that it was sold to him by the local authority.
  Mr. Powell: No.
  Mr. Sparks: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that property values in London and Greater London will depreciate to that extent then he is making a very great mistake.
  Mr. Powell: They are.
  Mr. Sparks: The tendency will be for housing of this type to appreciate very considerably in value. When the Minister talked about the raising of the Bank rate creating conditions which will permit houses to be built at a lower cost he was far from the truth. The rapid rise in the cost of living, in turn leading to a rise in wage costs throughout the industry, will send up the cost of house building very greatly in the next few years.
  I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider, in the Committee stage, very seriously, Amendments designed to improve the Bill and make it of greater value to the town development corporations and to local authorities in developing their housing schemes to the benefit of people still on their waiting lists.
  9.11 p.m.
  Mr. G. Lindgren: Everyone will agree that the debate has been extraordinarily useful. The Minister, to whom I shall refer on a number of occasions in my speech, has apologised for his absence. Everyone will agree that he has been on the Front Bench
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  most of the afternoon, and he has now gone for some food. He knows briefly what I shall say, and it is no disrespect either to the House or to myself that he is not here.
  The three points which we have been discussing have been the subsidy, agricultural houses—tied houses—and the sale of existing council houses. Why are local authorities in housing at all? No hon. Member opposite has admitted that local authorities came into housing because private enterprise failed. At the end of the 1914–18 war it was impossible for private enterprise—the financier and the speculative builder—to provide houses at rents which ordinary workers could afford to pay. When there is no longer a profit in a service or activity Tory Governments hand them over to local authorities to undertake. In fact, the two functions of local government are to provide services in which private enterprise cannot make a profit and to guard the consumer of the service against fraud where private enterprise does provide a service.
  There was a spate of legislation after the 1914–18 war. The Act of 1919 was followed by Acts in 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926, the Greenwood Act of 1930, the 1933 Act, the 1935 Slum Clearance Act and the 1936 Act which consolidated the general housing Acts and gave power to pool housing accounts. In all those Acts there were varying subsidies and varying rates of interest, and from the local authority point of view housing became a nightmare to the administrator and the elected representative.
  We are genuinely afraid that the present Tory Government is returning to the ideas of Tory Governments of the past. They do not like local authority housing, and they do not like good standard local authority housing. We had high building costs following the 1914–18 war. We also had high rates of interest. The rate of interest on the first houses built by my own local authority after the 1914–18 war was 6 per cent., and the cost of each house was £1,500. How did successive Tory Governments bring down the cost of housing and the cost of subsidies? They cut housing standards.
  Mr. Archer Baldwin indicated dissent.
  Mr. Lindgren: I see the hon. Member shaking his head, but the standards of the houses under the 1922 and 1923 Acts were much lower than those under the 1919 Act. The Government cut the standard of construction and the standard of fittings. Under the 1923 Act the Tory Government made my local authority cut 12 inches off the top of the wall between the second and third bedrooms in order to bring down costs. If, therefore, there was a lodger, one could look over the top to see how he was getting on. That was the type of cutting down of standards which Tory Governments insisted upon, and we are afraid that that sort of thing is coming back.
  Although hon. Members opposite deny it, and although the Minister tried to palm off the fact that he was looking for that £50 on the basis of the general relaxation that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) made in regard to the variations within the Dudley standards under the Ministry's general plans, the fact is that the Minister—I do not blame the Ministry—is tending to encourage local authorities to cut out valuable fittings—cupboards and that sort of thing—and the standards will go down unless there is some resistance from local authorities.
  Do not forget that under a Tory Government council housing became a music hall joke. One thing of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) can be proud is that he took housing away from the music hall joke of the Tory Party and raised it to the very fine standards of creditable housing for the workers that we have had since the war. No longer do we hear jokes from the music hall about council houses. [Interruption.] I dare not repeat some of the jokes, or I should be called to order by Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. H. Nicholls: Shortage of housing is not funny.
  Mr. Lindgren: I am glad that the hon. Member has butted in. Prior to 1939, there was not a single local authority that was not under-housed. I know what I am talking about, because I have led deputations of local authorities to the Ministry pleading to be able to build houses prior to 1939. The Ministry, then under Tory Ministers of Health, refused to allow us to build council houses unless we had double the number of waiting applicants
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  on the lists for the number of houses we wanted to build. And so, of course, we got the waiting lists and the under-housing which existed in 1939. One in five of the country's houses were destroyed or damaged during the war, and we have had the whole of the losses of building in the war period to make up. The hon. Member for Peterborough ought to be sure of himself before he butts in.
  Now, we have the general question of the Public Works Loan Board and the increase in the rates of interest to 4 ¼ per cent. It was very encouraging to hear the Minister say, but he was very guarded in what he did say, that the latest increase in the Bank rate did not necessarily mean that there would also be a further rise in the Public Works Loan Board rate.
  But local authorities are worried. The Public Works Loan Board rates have always followed the Bank rate. Will the Minister guarantee that Public Works Loan Board rates will not rise as a consequence of the recent increase? Will the Parliamentary Secretary give a guarantee also when he replies that, if the Board's rates do increase, we shall have another Housing Bill to give the general subsidy increase again to relieve local authorities of the increase in costs?
  Why the Minister would not give the figures of how the assessments—the old assessment of subsidy and the new—are arrived at, I do not know. So far as I know, there is nothing secret about it, and I have the figures. The hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper), who would not give way when he was speaking, did not know the facts. Prior to the reassessment, the subsidy was based on the fact that the notional house was accepted as £1,100 and the rate of interest as 3⅛ per cent. The loan charges, therefore, on that basis were £40 12s. plus a repairs allowance of £7 8s. That gave an annual charge of £48 a year. Against that was set the hypothetical rent of 10s. a week—£26 a year—which left a balance of £22 chargeable to the rates. That £22 which was chargeable to the rates on the notional house was made up by £16 10s. from the Exchequer and £5 10s. by the local authority from rate fund charge.
  The new assessment is, as the right hon. Gentleman said, £1,525, and at 4¼ per cent. the annual loan charges become £70 8s. Look at what hon. Members

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  have done through their monetary policy. The notional council house means £30 a year in the bankers' pockets. [Interruption.] An hon. Member opposite sneers, but it is a fact; £40 under the 3⅛ per cent. interest and £70 8s. under the Tory Government at 4¼ per cent. interest. It is true that the £12 repair allowance has been agreed, and so we get £82 8s. as the outgoings of the notional house. There is assumed rent at £46 16s., leaving a rate balance which would be a charge on the rates of £35 12s., and that £35 12s. on the hypothetical house is made up of £26 14s. from the Treasury and £8 18s. from the local rates. That is on the notional house, and I agree that we could not deal with this matter otherwise than by a notional house.
  For 20 years prior to entering this House I was a member of the Welwyn Garden City authority and for many years chairman of its housing committee. I am indebted to them for these figures of houses under actual construction. The Minister said that this would not mean an increase in the rents for the average council house. I give two figures of houses being built under contract by his Ministry, terrace houses and semidetached houses. The annual charges if the rate of interest had been at 3⅛, would be £52 3s. 8d., and the site and development charges £10 16s. 8d., making a general total of £63 4s. Deducting the subsidy of £22, the charge would be £41 0s. 4d. per annum, making a rent of 15s. 9d. per week.
  Under the 4¼ per cent. rate of interest, the annual loan charges become £66 18s. 1d., the site and development charges go up to £12 8s. 6d., because the 4¼ per cent. is not only on house building but on every local government activity, making a total annual outgoing charge of £79 6s. 7d. The increased value of the subsidy is £35 12s., bringing the net annual charge down to £43 14s. 7d., making the weekly rent 16s. 10d. Even taking into account the increased national and local subsidy, these rent charges mean that houses under construction have had their rents increased by 1s. 1d. per week over and above what the tenant has to bear as his share of the £3 18s. rate subsidy.
  In addition, every activity of the local authority will be covered in this increased
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  interest charge; street lighting, parks, open spaces—in every activity the interest rate will be going up. This rate of 4¼ per cent. means higher rates, which in turn means higher rents. In fact, the rents of normal council houses, including rates, are going up into the range of 35s. and 40s. a week, which is above the ability of the ordinary worker to pay, even in a period of full employment.
  Under a Tory Government we cannot be sure of full employment. People are really worried now about taking on a council house. So long as there was security under a Labour Government and full employment with good wages they were prepared to pay—[Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite may smile, but if they go to Welwyn Garden City, where in fact before the advent of a Tory Government every worker was assured of a full week's pay every week, they will find that now people are fearful of getting the sack, which means that these council houses are not so attractive to them.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) referred to the question of new towns, about which I also wished to speak, but I shall not have the time because I want to give the Parliamentary Secretary an opportunity to make a full reply. I will, however, deal with the question of the tied cottage. We shall oppose this Bill on Clause 2, because we are against perpetuating the vicious system of the agricultural tied cottage.
  The tied cottage, as such, is associated with a large number of industries. Policemen, firemen, railway workers, workers in the old colliery companies and now under the National Coal Board live in tied cottages. Mr. Speaker lives in a "tied cottage," and the Prime Minister lives in a "tied cottage." It is a question of the general treatment which one receives when living in a tied cottage and the ability to find alternative accommodation if one has to get out. I know of no industry which has been more vicious in its application of the tied cottage system than the agricultural industry. [Interruption.]
  Brigadier Medlicott: Would the hon. Member explain why the Labour Government perpetuated this very system for six years when, with a stroke of the pen, they could have ended it?
  Mr. Lindgren: They could not have ended it with a stroke of the pen. Hon

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  Members said the system does not work viciously, but in my own constituency and in cases within my own knowledge I have known of a dozen cases of agricultural workers who were put on the streets. [Interruption.] I could give actual cases, and will quote names if hon. Members wish. For instance a man with a sick wife and six children put on to the street—
  Brigadier Clarke: Give us names.
  Mr. Lindgren: I will give hon. Members a case—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, dozens of cases."] Hon. Members can have them, but equally I have been associated with other industries. I was a staff clerk on the railway—
  Mr. Baldwin: Will the hon. Member quote a dozen cases to one hon. Member on this side of the House before the Third Reading of this Bill so that we can deal with them?
  Mr. Lindgren: With pleasure, and also the problems of the local authorities who had to handle them. I will go further, and give the hon. Gentleman cases of houses bought by farmers who applied for a certificate and turned out people who had been living in the cottages for 40 years—
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Lindgren: I cannot give way, in fairness to the Parliamentary Secretary. I was associated with the railway industry as a staff clerk, but I never knew the old railway company turn out people like it—
  Brigadier Clarke: The hon. Member never knew anything.
  Mr. Lindgren: The hon. and gallant Member may know something about the Army, but what he knows about housing and local government—
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: The hon. Member used the expression, "There is no more vicious industry," and then there was a noise. Would he repeat what it was he said afterwards? It would be interesting to have it on the record.
  Mr. Lindgren: No industry has more viciously used the tied cottage system than the agricultural industry. It is the only industry I know, and I can quote cases where, in fact, men, women
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  and children have been put into the street within recent times.
  It is true that we did not deal with it altogether, but what, in fact, hon. Gentlemen opposite are now doing is applying public money to it. There may be something to be said for a farmer who has built a house with his own money for somebody whom he employs to do something for him, but there is no justification whatever to use the taxpayers' money in order to perpetuate a system so that private individuals may use it ruthlessly in regard to persons employed in their industry.
  If I may now pass from the tied cottage—[Interruption.] I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not like it. We now come to the sale of council houses, and I want to say that we are not opposed at all to the individual ownership of houses, provided that the person concerned is in a good job, has a good wage and has security. He should have every encouragement to own his own house, but, for a person who is in an insecure job, living on a low standard and low wage, house ownership is not for him.
  Unfortunately, the general majority of workers are not in that fortunate position. [An HON. MEMBER: "Under Socialism."] We are not under Socialism now. We are under a Tory Government, and, under the Tory Government, there is a general lessening of security. The hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Miss Ward) laughs, but will she go to Lancashire and Yorkshire and ask the people there if they think they are more secure today than they were before the General Election? Or will she go among the workers in her own constituency around Tyneside and ask them whether they feel more secure now than they did when a Labour Government was in power?
  No, so far as the individual is concerned, if he is in a good position, with a satisfactory income and security, house ownership is a virtue, but, if he is in an insecure position with a low wage and living standard, then house ownership, with the repayments of the mortgage and all the rest, can be a millstone round his neck to make his home life almost unbearable.
  Why this sudden enthusiasm of hon. Gentlemen opposite for the selling of

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  council houses? The power has always been there. Under the 1923 Act, local authorities could build houses and sell them, and some of them did so. Under the 1936 Act, they could do it. Let me tell the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister that I was a member of local authority deputations asking permission to build council houses to sell under the 1936 Act, and successive Tory Governments and Ministers of Health refused. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] In 1937, in 1938 and in 1939, when the last application was made. The powers are there under the 1936 Act, and they were there under the 1923 Act.
  I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not like this, but the fact is that the power was there, and that successive Tory Ministers would not allow that power to be used. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I will tell hon. Gentlemen why. It was because it interfered with general estate developers and speculative builders, and they did not like local authorities coming into competition with speculative builders and estate developers. That is the reason. Hon. Gentlemen may smile, but I can tell the House that the real trouble is that hon. Gentlemen opposite, or most of them, have never been in local government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I know there are some exceptions.
  Sir Geoffrey Hutchinson: Many local authorities were allowed to sell their houses under the Act of 1936.
  Mr. Lindgren: Many local authorities were, it is true, and there were many more under the 1923 Act than there were under the 1936 Act. But where one had a developing area, such as the Welwyn Garden City, for example, the Tory Government of those days would not allow the local authority to compete with the speculative estate developer or the speculative builder. Our complaint is that this Bill interferes with general estate management of local authorities.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell), put a large number of questions which I should have liked to repeat to the Parliamentary Secretary. He was not in his place to hear them, but perhaps they have been passed on to him and we shall have a reply to them. Council houses built in normal estates for letting are not suitable for disposal. Let us take, for example, council houses in
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  a terrace row of six. One tenant wants to buy. What is the position of the council in the matter of the repair and maintenance of the rest? Under what conditions are they to sell—leasehold of freehold—to protect the other tenants in these blocks or terrace houses?
  Have we not some responsibility with regard to the future of the people who are likely to buy? Some Government—either this Government or the next Labour Government—will reach a position in which the housing supply more nearly meets the need. When that occurs housing prices will fall, and the quickest to fall will be the council house in a terrace row which some person has been foolish enough to buy. Normally a person who wants to buy a house does not want to buy one under those conditions. He might buy a terrace house today, owing to the general scarcity, but when there are more houses available he will not do so.
  Our complaint against even the existing houses which are being sold under private ownership is that where an existing privately owned house becomes vacant it is put up for sale; and that means one house less in the general rent pool. I will close in fairness to the Parliamentary Secretary who, because I have been led astray by hon. Members opposite, has already been deprived of some of his time. We shall allow a Second Reading of the Bill. Hon. Members opposite need not smile. If they want a Division we can give it to them.
  Hon. Members: Divide.
  Mr. Speaker: Time is getting very short.
  Mr. Lindgren: But we intend to endeavour in Committee to amend Clauses 2 and 3, which we consider to be the unfair parts of this Bill.
  9.39 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Ernest Marples): The closing remarks of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) assumed that Clause 1 of the Bill is fair. He said that the Opposition would try to amend Clauses 2 and 3 upstairs. Clause 1, which deals with subsidies, apparently is fair. If that is so, there is no point in my replying to the various arguments on subsidies put forward by hon. Members opposite.

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  The hon. Member for Wellingborough became rather heated in his historical reminiscences of the Tory Party in the 1920's and about the tenant peeping over the wall to see what the lodger was doing—something that might be desirable in some circumstances and not in others. I do not propose to follow the hon. Member in those reminiscences.
  Before I reply to some of the points raised by hon. Members opposite in the short time at my disposal—and I presume they will not think me discourteous if I cannot reply to them all, because I have less than 20 minutes to do it in—I should like to add my congratulations to the tribute paid by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) to my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins) on his maiden speech. It was a lucid speech, displaying great knowledge of local government, and the reason is that my hon. Friend has spent the best part of a quarter of a century in local government.
  My hon. Friend is well informed, and he tackled a very difficult proposition in speaking on a controversial Bill of this nature. As he himself said, he realised that he had to be non-controversial, and he succeeded in doing reasonably well, especially considering the speech of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren). We all hope to hear him again on his favourite topic, which is obviously local government.
  There are three important Clauses in this Bill, one relating to subsidies, another to, the sale of council houses, and the third of tied cottages. But there is one serious omission which hon. Members opposite made. I cannot remember a contribution from any hon. Member opposite, and certainly not from the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale or the hon. Members for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) and Wellingborough, about the costs of house building The high costs of house building, more than anything else, are responsible for the subsidies which the State is now paying out. In 1945 and 1946, when I first came to this House, I well remember the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale and the right hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Key) dilating at considerable length on the costs
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  of house building and how they would reduce them.
  In fact, the cost of a notional three-bedroom house has increased from £1,100 in 1946 to £1,575 now. That is an increase of £475 during the period when the right hon. Gentleman and his party were in office, and the failure to mention that fact is a serious omission in a debate of this character.
  Mr. Bevan: I asked the Minister, when he was speaking, whether it was possible to give a comparison of the costs of house building. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has now armed himself with that information?
  Mr. Marples: I only have time to shoot off a few of the facts with which I have armed myself. The right hon. Gentleman has already intervened a great deal, as well as making a long speech.
  I should now like to deal with the question of the sale of council houses. The hon. Member for Lincoln who opened for the Opposition referred to this part of the Bill as "rank Toryism."
  Mr. de Freitas: I was referring to Clause 2.
  Mr. Marples: The hon. Gentleman was talking on both Clauses 2 and 3. My hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) effectively disposed of this point by pointing out that this showed that the Opposition do not trust the local authorities. They seek to make this Government say to local authorities, "You shall not sell your houses whether you like to or not, whether it is convenient or not, or whether it is right or not." We on these benches take an altogether different view. Secondly, the Opposition want us to say to the local authorities, "You shall not let private enterprise build more than one-fifth of all the houses in your area whether it is convenient or not and whether it is right or not."
  We say that we would rather trust the local authorities, and that they can sell houses if they want to in suitable cases, subject to certain safeguards. We also say that local authorities may sell half the number of houses by private enterprise if they consider local conditions justify this. This is permissive; it is not mandatory. We are not forcing local authorities to sell.

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  If they do not want to sell their houses, there is no compulsion on them to do so. The law has not been altered. It has been legal to sell council houses for many years, but the terms on which they can be sold under the law have been made ridiculous, unsuitable and obsolete by events, because if a council were to sell a house today under existing legislation they would have to exploit the sitting tenant by charging him a scarcity value on the house. We do not think that is desirable. That is why this Clause is brought in—to make sure that a fair price is paid.
  In principle, we believe in house ownership. We believe that council houses should be sold to sitting tenants if the sitting tenants wish to buy and the council wishes to sell. We believe that these councils, if they so desire, should erect and sell houses to the people who are in need of them. We think that there should be freedom of choice. If a man wants to own a house, let him own it; if he wants to rent a house, let him rent it. We do not think that politicians should dictate to a citizen which course he should adopt.
  Assuming that we agree to differ with the Opposition on the policy, let us try, at any rate, to implement that policy by rules which are not only fair but which are seen to be fair. My right hon. Friend has introduced certain rules. The first is that the local authority must ask the Minister. The second is that the price shall be fixed so that the local authority does not exploit the tenant and the tenant, in turn, does not get a cheap house and make a quick speculative profit out of it. The Opposition assume that the selling of council houses means, in a lot of cases, that the wrong people will be put into them. I refer here to the hon. Member for Lincoln who quoted from an article which I wrote in the "People" during the General Election. He quoted an extract out of its context, as I shall leave the House to judge when I read the passage in full.
  There are two points to decide on the question of tenants. The first is, who shall occupy the house and the second, who shall own it or rent it? We say that it should be occupied by those who are in greatest need. We then go on to say that if a person needs a house he shall
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  be free to choose whether he owns it or whether he rents it. The hon. Member for Lincoln said that he was rather frightened, because I wrote in "The People," when talking about a soldier who had been wounded in Korea, that he should have the chance to buy a house. The hon. Member quoted about half a sentence. I will read from the beginning.
  "In a free country a man should be free to choose whether he rents or owns. No politician should dictate to him either way.
  "Surely a more important question is 'Who occupies the house?' Suppose a single man wishes to rent and an older soldier wounded in Korea wishes to buy. Justice demands that the soldier gets the house first. Freedom demands that he pleases himself whether he buys or rents."
  Mr. de Freitas: The sole point I was making—and the very strong point—is that the hon. Gentleman's town council was giving the man a chance to buy, but the price was such—over £3 a week—that the poor man who had returned from Korea would not be able to buy it.
  Mr. Marples: The hon. Gentleman has still got it wrong. I said "if the soldier returning from Korea wishes to buy." The occupancy is given to the person who deserves it physically, and then he is left free to buy or to rent it. If he wants to buy it he can buy it; if not, he can rent it.
  Mr. de Freitas: He cannot buy it.
  Mr. Marples: If he cannot buy it, then he can rent it. The Opposition assume that the sale of a council house automatically reduces the pool for letting. A lot of council houses will be sold to the existing tenants and it is to be assumed that the existing tenants have established proper claims and have prior rights because they need the houses. What happens afterwards? In the first four years in which he can dispose of it, he has to give the local authority the right of pre-emption, in which case the local authority can buy it back again. At the end of four years he can dispose of it elsewhere.
  Do hon. Members opposite really mean to say—because four years' time is 10 years after the end of the second World War—that after six years of their own Government and, I hope, four years of ours—[HON. MEMBERS: "What a hope."] we shall be in such a poor position that a man should not be free to sell his house if he so wishes?
  Mr. Sparks rose—
  Mr. Marples: I hope the hon. Gentleman will not think me discourteous if I do not give way, but there are a number of points with which I have to deal. The next point is that the only houses which will be taken from the pool of letting are those in which the man dies after the four years—and that is in a very small minority of cases, very small indeed; and so the concern of hon. Members opposite is entirely unfounded.
  Mr. Sparks: The hon. Gentleman has got it quite wrong.
  Mr. Marples: One of the reasons why I and my right hon. Friend think that these council houses should be sold is some people are occupying council houses when they can well afford to buy them. The hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell) referred to a speech I made in 1948.
  Mr. Pannell: In 1946.
  Mr. Marples: Well, in 1946. I still maintain the view that a large number of people are living in council houses and are receiving the subsidy when, in fact, they could well afford to pay the full rent, and I can give the hon. Gentleman a case which I quoted in this House, I think, in 1947. It was of an official of one of the gas boards in the north-west of England who was receiving a salary of. I think, between £2,500 and £3,000 a year—and I am quoting from memory—and who was occupying a council house and receiving a subsidy from the Exchequer and a subsidy from the local ratepayers.
  That man got occupation of the house when he was in different circumstances. I therefore said that if his needs were such that he required the house, then he should still have occupation of it. What I cannot stomach is a man earning £3,000 a year and receiving a subsidy from the taxpayers and ratepayers. I must say that the publicity which was given in that case was rather salutary—and I say this in fairness to the member of the gas board—because when he bought his own house he voluntarily gave to the council the subsidy which he had received in the past.
  I should like to pay tribute to him and to say something to any other public man earning that salary and receiving a subsidy—and there is one in Scotland
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  as will be seen from this quotation from the "News of the World" of 24th February, 1952. In a leading article they pointed out that the Glasgow City Treasurer declared that many of the tenants had
  "personal or family incomes running well into four figures; one is a Government official with an annual income of £3,000 and a further £500 for expenses; and six are M.P.s."
  All I can say is that any man in public service who is getting over four figures a year should search his heart and his conscience to see whether he should follow the example set by the official of the North-West Gas Board and return to the local authority the subsidy which he has received.
  Mr. William Ross rose—
  Mr. Speaker: If the Minister does not give way the hon. Gentleman cannot remain on his feet.
  Mr. Ross: On a point of order. [HON. MEMBERS: "You do not like to listen to it."] The Parliamentary Secretary has made some suggestion about Scottish Members of Parliament. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, the inference was there, in what he read. Should he not give way so that we may get some enlightenment of the position?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
  Mr. Marples: I will now come quickly to the question of costs, and I do so because it is fundamental to our discussion of housing. What is to happen to future costs of house building? In 1946, the then right hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, now the right hon. Member for Poplar, said this:
  "Our third problem—if we are wise and sufficiently determined—will, though a big one now, be but temporary. It is that of the high cost of building these new and better homes. High cost must not prevent us from building now, but costs must not be allowed to remain so high as to frustrate the fulfilment of our task: the building of better homes at reasonable rents for the poorest of our people. Costs must come down; high subsidies must not be an incentive to maintaining high costs, and, since we are determined that high costs shall be temporary, high subsidies must be temporary, too."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1946: Vol. 420, c. 342.]
  Then we had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale, who made a great display of what he did when he was at the Ministry of Health. He said:

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  "If I had surrendered, three months ago, to the importunities of the other side of the House, and had mentioned programmes and targets, I would have been caught now … The result of the building contractors not knowing is that at the moment effective control is being achieved over building costs, and by the same scientific organisation of material supplies we shall progressively reduce the costs of building."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th November. 1945; Vol. 416, c. 1000.]
  How did the right hon. Gentleman reduce costs of building? Because that is why we are here discussing subsidies today—the right hon. Gentleman's failure to reduce the cost of house building. He reduced it this way. His notional cost of a house was £1,100, for a three-bedroom house based on 950 ft.—the average house councils were building on Dudley standards; and now it is £1,575, an increase of £475, or 43 per cent., in building costs. And the right hon. Gentleman was to bring them down by scientific organisation.
  I was going to give the House a few thoughts of my right hon. Friend on building costs, but I have only about three minutes left, and I want to say this, that to bring down costs—which is crucial—we have to do two things; first, give private enterprise more chance of building houses; because it has always been the pacemaker in reducing the cost of houses. If hon. Gentlemen opposite disagree with that, let me tell them that, since my right hon. Friend took certain steps to free the industry, private enterprise builders are now selling houses at from £50 to £150 below the figure inserted in the licence by the local authority. The other way to bring costs down is to create effective conditions so that private enterprise can really get down to the job.
  My right hon. Friend, who has been given great help by the Minister of Works, has created, with him, in the building industry a very favourable psychological climate for the building of houses. They have full order books and are maintaining a steadily expanding programme—not the erratic, violent programme given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale. One of the most erratic things we in this House of Commons ever saw was the housing campaign in 1947, when everybody stopped building houses to put roofs on houses only half completed.
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  My right hon. Friend has taken many steps. We do not on this side of the House want to be judged by slick debating points. We are quite satisfied—and my right hon. Friend is satisfied—to be judged by events as they unfold themselves, and by the number of houses built. My right hon. Friend wants this Measure to enable him to press forward and see that the number of houses we build is greatly increased. I am glad indeed that the Opposition are not going to divide on a Bill which has such worthy motives and intentions.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Committed to a Standing Committee.

  HOUSING [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  [Colonel Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to increase the amounts of the annual exchequer, rate fund and county council contributions under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1946, it is expedient to authorise any increase in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament or into the Exchequer under any enactment, being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session—

  (a) raising the general standard amount of the annual exchequer contributions under the said Act of 1946 in respect of houses completed after the twenty-eighth day of February, nineteen hundred and fifty-two, to twenty-six pounds fourteen shillings;

  (b) raising the special standard amount of the said contributions to thirty-five pounds fourteen shillings;

  (c) raising the standard amount of the said contributions in the case of dwellings to which section four of the said Act of 1946 applies (other than flats described in the proviso to subsection (1) of that section) to a sum rising from fifty-two pounds sixteen shillings where the cost per acre of the site as developed does not exceed four thousand pounds up to sixty pounds eighteen shillings where that cost does not exceed twelve thousand pounds, and then increasing by one pound nineteen shillings for each additional two thousand pounds or part of two thousand pounds in that cost;

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  (d) raising the standard amount of the said contributions in the case of flats described in the said proviso to a sum ascertained in accordance with the last foregoing paragraph plus ten pounds ten shillings;

  (e) raising to two pounds five shillings the proportional addition to the standard amount of the said contributions authorised by section thirty-eight of the Housing Act, 1949, in the case of houses to which that section applies;

  (f) amending the law relating to contributions under section three of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1938, or improvement grants under section twenty of the Housing Act, 1949;

  and any increase attributable to any provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under Part I of the Local Government Act, 1948.—[Mr. H. Macmillan.]
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: I do not intend to detain the Committee very long, but the Money Resolution, as drawn, raises a point of vital principle to which some reference should be made. There is no reason whatsoever why Her Majesty's Government should insert in this Resolution the whole of the detailed figures of the various grants which have been agreed to, reluctantly in most cases, by the local councils.
  There is one reason, and one reason only, and it is well that we should make it clear: it is to make it impossible for any Member of the Opposition to move an Amendment to make any increase in the grant. The Minister knew perfectly well that the bone of contention about this Bill would not be about the Bill as drawn, but about the adequacy of the grant of money to be made to local authorities in view of the increased costs of building, for which this afternoon he has had to admit he has made no allowance.
  In this House of Commons we are now in a state when, one by one, our fundamental liberties are going. [Laughter.] It is a sad state of affairs when that sort of remark should be greeted with fatuous cackle by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Let me recall the attention of the Committee to the details of this Resolution. Instead of being a general Resolution, as 99 out of 100 Money Resolutions are, giving the formal financial consent to such expenditure as shall be detailed by and contained in the Bill, it enumerates in six separate paragraphs every single
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  figure which has been agreed to by the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
  If I may take one as a sample, I will take paragraph (b), which is the one which has been mostly under discussion, raising the special standard amount of the said contributions to £35 14s. There is no reason for putting in that figure of £35 14s. A Money Resolution which authorises the contribution made by the Bill would be wholly sufficient.
  In the course of the debate on the Bill my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said that this will be a matter which will function very largely in local council elections in the next fortnight, and I rise merely to make the point that the Minister has deliberately taken this course of limiting the Money Resolution so that in no circumstances can the House of Commons raise the grant to the local authorities to an adequate amount. That is a point which will be made in local elections in the next fortnight to very good purpose.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: And this determines the standard.
  Mr. Hale: Yes, and it is right for the country to know that the Opposition have been deliberately prevented from making any improvement in the financial standard laid down by the Bill.
  I have no desire to embarrass the Government. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman, if he takes the advice of his legal advisers, will find that in drawing the Money Resolution in these terms he may have made Clause 3 of the Bill inoperative, because it certainly involves expenditure out of local funds when it repeals that section of the Housing Act which makes it obligatory upon local authorities, if they do sell houses, to sell them at market value. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) makes so many interjections which appear to have no relevance, but if he wishes to intervene I will gladly give way.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: The hon. Gentleman is waxing synthetically indignant about this Money Resolution. Why do not he and his followers show the country how odious they think it is by going into the Division Lobby tonight and voting against it?
  Mr. Hale: I have no objection to doing so. I propose to table an Amendment on the Report stage to try to put some of these things right. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the point he now raises was one which I left five minutes ago. I am now dealing with Clause 3 of the Bill itself and the effect of the Money Resolution on it.
  I am sorry I have been interrupted, because it means that I must to a certain extent recapitulate my argument. The Bill purports to authorise local councils now to sell houses at less than their market value which inevitably involves a grant from the Exchequer. The Money Resolution is so detailed that it gives no authority for any expenditure incurred under the appropriate section of the Housing Act, 1936.
  I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should consider that between now and the Report stage of the Money Resolution, and if he comes to that conclusion, I suggest he should table his Amendments early, so that we shall have the protection of these Amendments on the Order Paper when we come to consider the Committee stage of the Bill. With that sincere attempt to help the Government, I am prepared to close my brief remarks.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: I do not wish to show any discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman, and therefore I think I ought to reply to the points he has made. I should like to start by thanking him for his assistance. I have a long recollection of his acute mind and intimate knowledge of our procedure and if, as I think is quite possible, I should find his advice is useful, I shall certainly not hesitate to take it. I shall look for his assistance in doing so.
  With regard to Money Resolutions in general, as the hon. Gentleman knows, this has been a very long subject of discussion. I have heard it raised here on different sides for over 25 years. On the other hand, I think he will agree with me that since this Bill is almost entirely concerned with grants from the Exchequer, it is drawn in a way that applies the broad principles that we have always adopted in this House with regard to it being within the power of the Government to make proposals which add to the charge. I think that it is within the spirit of that very old rule of the House of Commons.
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  Since he says—and I was deeply moved by what he said—one by one our fundamental principles are going, I thought perhaps the wise thing was to follow precedent, and this Financial Resolution follows almost exactly the pattern of that which accompanied the Labour Government Bill which became the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1946, so that if our liberties went, they went five years ago.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

  AGRICULTURAL FERTILISERS
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the Draft Fertilisers (United Kingdom) Scheme, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.—[Sir T. Dugdale.]
  10.9 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: I do not want to detain the House for more than a few minutes, but I feel that before the House approves this Scheme it is my duty to draw its attention to certain observations made by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments with regard to the form of this draft Scheme because, in certain respects, its form is unprecedented and introduces a novel and rather surprising element into the jurisprudence of Statutory Instruments.
  The House will recollect that this draft scheme, which requires the affirmative approval of the House, is made under the Agricultural Fertilisers Act, 1952, to which the House devoted a considerable degree of attention in view of the widespread interest and importance which that Act attracted. It will be remembered that the Act envisaged that the scheme to be laid before our Parliament would enable the Minister to make certain payments to certain people.
  Quite shortly, the object of this particular Scheme is indicated in paragraph 3, which provides that where any fertiliser specified in the Schedule was purchased for use for adding to agriculture land to improve the fertility of the soil by an occupier of the land or by an association acquiring fertilisers in bulk, then the Minister could make a certain specified contribution to the purchaser to be calculated in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule.

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  Speaking on behalf, I believe, of all my hon. Friends, we welcome the speed with which, since the passage of the Act, the Minister has laid this scheme before the House. We have no criticism to make of the substance of the payments which are proposed, but there is an entirely novel paragraph at the end of the draft Scheme which attracted the attention of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments. It reads as follows:
  It shall be a condition of the making of any payment under this scheme that there shall be repaid to the Minister any sum which, if a payment under this scheme were a debt accrued due to the person receiving it, it would by reason of any mistake of fact be recoverable by the Minister from that person.
  The gravamen of the observations of the Select Committee, if I may summarise them, concerns a principle of the law of England which has been in existence for a great many centuries. I am glad to see that we have the presence of the Attorney-General to help us on this subject. It is also a principle of the law of Scotland, and I have no doubt that the Attorney-General will also be able to help on that subject if necessary because this draft scheme applies to Scotland as well as England and is of no less interest to the Scottish agricultural community than it is to the English agricultural community.
  As I was saying, it has been a principle of the law of England for a great many centuries that any sum paid under a mistake of fact is recoverable by the person who paid it from the person to whom it has been paid. That being so, the Select Committee thought that prima facie it was very undesirable to throw any doubt upon such a well-established proposition of law by seeming to make it necessary in the Statutory Instrument to have an express provision to that effect. So the Select Committee, in pursuance of the duties entrusted to them by this House, asked the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries to submit a memorandum explaining why paragraph 7 had been inserted, and the memorandum of the Ministry is now before the House as an appendix to the 5th Report of the Select Committee dated the 7th April, 1952.
  I invite the attention of the House first of all to the observations made by the Minister of Agriculture before I offer any comments upon them. The memorandum from the Ministry of Agriculture
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  points out, quite correctly, that the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments were not clear, first, as to the exact purpose of paragraph 7 of the draft Scheme; second, whether there was any need for it; and, third, whether there was any precedent for it.
  The memorandum then goes on to explain, quite correctly, that the payments which are to be made by the Minister under the Scheme are voluntary payments. I do not know whether that information will be received by the House with any surprise, but it is, of course, a legal expression that they are voluntary payments as distinct from debts due to the applicant for which he can sue the Minister. If in any appropriate case the Minister did not make a payment which he is authorised to make under the Scheme, there would be suitable remedies open to the person entitled which would enable him to collect the money from the Minister which Parliament has authorised the Minister to pay. Anyhow, as a matter of form the payments are no doubt voluntary payments.
  The memorandum goes on to say, quite correctly:
  "A payment made under a mistake of fact in pursuance of a legal liability to make payment may be recovered."
  As I have said, that is a basic proposition of the common law of England. The memorandum goes on:
  "In certain circumstances, a voluntary payment made under a mistake of fact, may likewise be recovered."
  As far as I know, there is no distinction between the two cases.
  Then comes the surprising part of the memorandum:
  "It is submitted however, that in spite of recent decisions by the Courts, the circumstances under which voluntary payments made under a mistake of fact can be recovered are not yet clearly determined, and it is, therefore, advisable on legal grounds in statutory schemes for the payment of subsidies to make clear to the recipient the conditions under which the Minister may claim to be repaid, namely the same conditions as would apply to recovery of a debt paid by mistake."
  It is most important that people who receive payments under the Scheme should know whether they are entitled to keep them or not. I hope we can expect from the present Minister of Agriculture the safe efficiency that we enjoyed under his predecessor, for we should then not

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  expect many mistakes to be made. If mistakes are made, they will not be due to any fault of the recipients but will presumably be the result of some mistake made in the Ministry, and I am not at all sure that as a matter of equity or common sense it would be right for any member of the public to suffer from any Departmental mistakes made by the Ministry of Agriculture.
  The concluding paragraph is important, because it really admits that there is no precedent for a provision of this kind in a Statutory Instrument. Paragraph (3) of the memorandum says:
  "Although it is not unusual for statutory schemes for payments to contain provisions for the recovery of money paid contrary to the provisions of the scheme … there is no precedent for this paragraph, except in so far as its wording resembles that of Section 15 (3) of the Hill Farming Act, 1946. It is submitted that the condition contained in the paragraph making clear the respective rights of Minister and recipient, where a mistake is made, is both fair and reasonable."
  I want to conclude with this general observation, with which, I hope, the Attorney-General will agree. Where the law of England has been clear on a certain subject for a very long time, it is desirable that nothing should be introduced into any Statutory Instrument which should cast doubt upon it. If there is any doubt about the general law of the land as to the circumstances in which money paid under a mistake of fact, whether it be a voluntary payment or not, is recoverable, that is a subject in which the general law of the land ought to be clarified. In so far as there is any doubt about it—I do not think that there is—it is not right for doubts to be increased by the insertion of a paragraph such as this in a Statutory Instrument which ex hypothesi is not necessary and which, by its inclusion, suggests that it is necessary and thereby throws some doubt on the general proposition of law.
  It is for that reason that I have thought it necessary to draw the attention of the House to the matter. While I in no way wish to detract from the merits of this Statutory Instrument, the matters to which the Select Committee have drawn attention reveal, it seems to us, a principle to which Parliamentary draftsmen ought to have regard in the general framing of subordinate legislation.
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  Under paragraph 3 of the Scheme, it appears that applications will have to be made by an association which is regularly in the way of business of acquiring subsidies. I wish to get the point clear, because questions have been put to me about it. I take it, for instance, that a grazing constable or a leading man in a crofting district will not be able now to apply for the subsidy, but that it must be applied for by an association which regularly deals with these matters.
  The Under-Secretary has gone a long way to meet the point of crofters and smallholders, and I do not wish to take up any more time, but it would be an advantage, as these questions will arise, if the hon. Gentleman would confirm that mine is the correct interpretation and that the wider interpretations put upon paragraph 3, or upon the equivalent subsection of the Bill, are now to some extent narrowed down by the Scheme.
  10.22 p.m.
  Mr. J. Grimond: We should not pass from this Scheme without some remark being made upon a point on which I said some words when the Act under which the Scheme was laid was before the House. That was, the necessity for allowing the subsidy to be available to small farmers and crofters who would only have occasion to use comparatively small amounts of fertiliser.
  It appears that the Minister has taken that point very fully into consideration and that the Act will make it possible for crofters and smallholders to make use of the subsidy and, we hope, to improve their land by the application of fertilisers. I only hope that the Department in Scotland and the Ministry of England will make it widely known to these people that they are now in a position to gain advantage from the Act and will encourage them to do so.
  The only other point to which I want to refer is one that arises under paragraph 3 (b), to which matter, again, I referred in the debates on the Bill. This paragraph is to the effect that the subsidy will be available to
  "an association which acquires fertilisers in bulk for redistribution to its members."
  I think that the Joint Under-Secretaries of State would agree that in the debates on the Bill, there was, perhaps, at one time some doubt as to exactly who

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  could apply for the subsidy. At one time it was suggested that any man could apply for it on behalf of his neighbours: that is to say, one smallholder or crofter could apply and could then share out the subsidy to those in his township. It now seems, under the terms of this Order, that only an association which regularly deals in fertilisers can apply for the subsidy. I do not want to labour the point, but I should like to be certain as questions are sure to arise.
  10.25 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I propose to follow what my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Eric Fletcher) said. This seems to be a quite serious matter. The 1952 Act authorises the payment of contributions in accordance with the scheme. Here we have the Scheme and in Section 4 of the Act a scheme may restrict the amounts of contributions in any manner and make the payment of contributions subject to any conditions.
  There are then given a number of instances for cases which are really nothing to do with the point my hon. Friends have been putting. What, in fact, has happened is that the Scheme has appeared with paragraph 7 at the end of it. I go back to paragraph 7 which makes it
  "a condition of the making of any payment under this Scheme that there shall be repaid to the Minister any sum which, if a payment under this Scheme were a debt accrued due to the person receiving it, would by reason of any mistake of fact be recoverable by the Minister from that person."
  That is supposed to be and intended to be a condition for the making of what must be a second payment and, in effect, it uses the making of the second payment to enable the Minister to make a recovery in respect of what I will call the first or earlier payment. One of two things happens, either the payment under the first Scheme is recoverable anyhow, in which case I can only call this condition an exceedingly misleading and unnecessary condition, or it is not recoverable, in which case the Minister is using the making of the second payment and this paragraph in the Scheme as a means of recovering a debt which otherwise he could not recover.
  There remains the further alternative, and it is rather significant that that is the alternative upon which the Ministry rely. I hope that the Attorney-General
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  is not objecting to my finding three alternatives—I agree that it is illogical—but, if I may continue to be illogical, it is that there is some doubt about the matter. The point which strikes me as of some real importance is that if there is some doubt about the matter surely it ought not to be resolved by a paragraph in a Scheme; it ought to be resolved in the courts in the usual and proper way in the circumstances of each case, or on the circumstances of some test case. The way to resolve doubts or clarify the law is not that of putting a paragraph in an administrative Scheme.
  Either it adds nothing to the Minister's rights, in which case it is quite unnecessary, or it adds something to the Minister's rights, in which case it seems beyond the language and intention of the original statute and somewhat unconstitutional or, in the third alternative—which is the one the Ministry apparently prefer—it clarifies the position. I take the strongest objection to an administrative Scheme being used to clarify a point of law. It is not the right way to do it, and it is an evasion by the Executive of the powers of the judiciary, which, even in such a small matter as this, ought not to be supported.
  I say quite seriously to the Minister that I think this Scheme ought not to proceed with this paragraph 7. I cannot see that it does any good; I can see that it is a dangerous precedent, if a precedent on quite a small point. Lastly, as a matter of common sense, if one is trying to find out the rights of the subject under an administrative order, if a farmer is getting some fertiliser subsidy, does one write or go to the Stationery Office and read carefully through the Scheme to find out what the rights of the subject are? One does not do anything of the sort. One either tries to find out from the official concerned, or consults legal authority in the district.
  Surely, if nothing more can be said for those who thought of this method of instructing the subject, one can only conclude that it is a silly method and an inefficient one. On all of those grounds, though I agree the point is quite small, and though it does seem a tiny matter about which to keep the House, I think that this is a matter we should take seriously, and discourage this innovation—for it appears to be a complete innovation—and be grateful to the Select Committee for having fished some of the

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  remarkable characteristics of this Scheme out of the Scheme itself and out of the responsible Minister.
  10.31 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: I find myself in a little difficulty because when the matter was debated there was a fairly clear understanding given to the right hon. Gentleman, who was then present, with the Parliamentary Secretary, that when the Scheme was introduced, we should not go over the debate again. I did not know then that the Statutory Instruments Committee would find so many things in the Scheme on which to comment, but I prefer to keep to the undertaking fully, and not follow the points raised by my hon. Friends.
  I was a little surprised, some days ago, when the debate was suddenly adjourned, whether by the oversight of the Patronage Secretary or the exhaustion of the Leader of the House I do not know, because they had had an assurance and none of us had any malicious intentions at all.
  I only want to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the full way in which he implemented that undertaking which he gave in the debate. I think it was ungenerous of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) to lavish praise on the Government for amendments all of which resulted from Amendments put down by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House. It really is a little hard, after we had debated the matter for a variety of mornings, because of the incompetence of the Leader of the House, that any of those encomiums should be passed at all. I am, therefore, proposing a vote of thanks to myself—
  Mr. Grimond: I should like to second that vote of thanks. I do not remember that, but let me be the first to second it.
  Mr. Hale: I am much obliged. The debate carried on after ten o'clock for a number of nights, and I have paid tribute before to the very able way in which the right hon. Gentleman conducted the debate, which certainly facilitated and shortened our discussions, and I commend that example to some of his right hon. Friends who have not yet learned the secret.
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  There were three main points that were very amply implemented. There is the whole widening of the definition of the persons entitled to benefit; there is the reduction of the figure of 10 cwt. to 4 cwt.; and there is the definition of land which was produced on the Report stage. For all these things we are extremely grateful. I think it is a great improvement and subject to what has been said tonight I have pleasure in welcoming these amendments.
  10.35 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): I thank the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) for recognising the implementation of the undertakings given. The reason why the last debate was adjourned was because we were waiting for the report of the Statutory Instruments Committee, which, in fact, was only published the day before the House went into Recess. It is true that the Scheme could have come on that night, but the course of events was not altogether predictable.
  Mr. Hale: Although I accept that the Scheme was put down for that day, why put it down when it was known that the report was not available?
  Mr. Nugent: I think it is a fair comment to say that the course of events for that day was not altogether predictable, and I was not entirely clear what attitude hon. Gentlemen opposite wished to take in the debate. It seemed better to take it tonight when we could have a more convenient occasion for discussing it.
  With regard to the technical point raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney (Mr. Grimond), associations are only as defined in the Scheme. Informal associations cannot qualify. We feel that in reducing the minimum quantity to 4 cwt. we have really brought it within the reach of every bona fide smallholder.
  I congratulate the hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) and his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) on the vigilance of the Statutory Instruments Committee in bringing the matter before the House. The hon. and learned Gentleman asked what would be the reaction of the farmers to this kind of Scheme. The answer is that the farmer knows roughly

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  what the subsidy is worth now. It is worth 30 per cent. of the phosphatic content of the fertiliser, and I think he would accept, if he made a mistake in his application that he would probably be required to repay that portion of the subsidy due to that mistake. I think any ordinary and reasonable person would accept that.
  That is all this Scheme sets out to do. The offending paragraph—paragraph 7—only tries to qualify the position. There is some doubt in the minds of our lawyers whether a voluntary payment is always recoverable as, in fact, a debt due would be. There was one point on which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, East, was not correct, and that was if there is a mistake by the Minister—a mistake of law—in the administration of his Scheme that is not recoverable. The farmer who has benefited from the mistake can retain the benefit. This applies where there has been a mistake of fact in the application for a subsidy.
  With regard to the precedents, I think the case set out in the Department's reply to the Statutory Instruments Committee does give as complete an answer as we can. There is some doubt in the minds of our legal experts whether a voluntary payment is always recoverable and it is to remove that doubt that we have done that.
  Mr. Mitchison: If I understand the hon. Gentleman rightly, and I hope he will correct me if I am wrong, the position is that there is some doubt whether some of these payments would be recoverable at law. Accordingly, the intention of this paragraph 7 is to make recoverable payments about which it is at least doubtful whether they would be recoverable otherwise. Therefore, if I am right, this Scheme is being used to extract from the subject payments which might not otherwise be recoverable from him, and that without any specific authority to that effect in the Act.
  Mr. Nugent: No, it does not go quite so far as that. There are cases—and the case of Lamer v. the L.C.C. was a particular one—which exactly support what I was going to describe as the philosophy, but which at any rate is the reasoning, in this paragraph. Nevertheless, although there is case law to support this, it was felt there was a sufficient element of doubt to make it desirable that there
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  should be something to clarify it in this Scheme.
  The hon. Member for Islington, East, will recollect that in the last paragraph of the reply to the Statutory Instruments Committee we referred to the fact that there was some similarity in the Hill Farming Act, 1946. Although the wording is not exactly the same, I think it is right to say there is to some extent the same device there. This arrangement replaces the provision in the 1947 Scheme relating to lime, which required an audit. It was felt that that was such a clumsy and inconvenient method of dealing with the possibility of recovery in the event of overpayment due to a mistake of fact by the applicant that it was better to put it in the way now proposed, so as to provide a simple process of recovery which it was felt would be understandable to all. I trust that with that explanation of our honest intention, and I hope the clarification of the Scheme, the House will consent to this Motion.
  10.43 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: No one has greater admiration for the Joint Parliamentary Secretary than I have. We served as colleagues together on a great local government authority, and as one of the senior members I watched his steady rise in the counsels of that authority with great admiration and a feeling that it was well merited. But I do not think that even he would claim that on a difficult point of law, as it appears to the laymen, raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) and amplified by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), we could accept him as an unchallengeable authority.
  In fact, the hon. Gentleman relied on the doubts that were felt by his legal experts, by whom I understood him to mean the legal advisers inside the Ministry. But, after all, we have a greater legal expert than even the very skilled lawyers who advise the hon. Gentleman's Ministry on the way to assist the agricultural community. We have the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General. In view of the important question of general principle—as I as a layman understand it—that if one does something in this way in connection with what has been regarded

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  hitherto as a quite unchallengeable principle in law, one may cast doubt on all the statutes where this might have been included but was not, it would be to the interest of the House, and in the interest of a clear understanding of the exact position, if the Attorney-General gave us the benefit of his views on the matter.
  Also, on the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering that there is nothing in the law on which this Scheme hangs which justifies the introduction of this particular paragraph, I would point out that an Instrument of this kind cannot go beyond the provisions of the Measure which authorises its making.
  We are all indebted to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for attending throughout this discussion; and I say to him that this point has been raised as one of general law, and not as a pernickety criticism of this Scheme. It was made by the Statutory Instruments Committee of the House, which is a body charged with the duty of drawing the attention of the House to any unsual features which may appear in any of these Statutory Instruments and, for the reasons put forward, I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will feel that, without being prompted by the Parliamentary Secretary—who, in any case, is not even a solicitor and is not, therefore, entitled to brief the right hon. and learned Gentleman—will give us an elucidation of the facts as he sees them. I hope that he will do that as a Law Officer of the Crown, charged with the duty of advising the House on issues involved in a discussion of this kind.
  10.46 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Lionel Heald): I am grateful for the kind words of the right hon. Gentleman, and I am particularly honoured to be the third representative of the county of Surrey to speak in succession on a matter of this kind; and to speak in a non-party spirit, as we often do on matters of public interest in the county of Surrey. The county sets a very good example …
  Mr. Hale: What about Lancashire?
  The Attorney-General: Well, I was born and brought up in Lancashire, so that is all right.
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  First of all, I am asked, is this Scheme within the powers of the Act at all? I would remind the House of the words of Section 4, which are that:
  "A scheme under this Act may restrict the amounts of contributions in any manner and make the payment of contributions subject to any conditions, and may, in particular,"
  and then there follows (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e).
  When an enactment of this kind has been made, it is intended that it shall fulfil this purpose; first, to give a general power to do anything which comes within the terms of the wording, and then, to remove any doubt, to make particular reference to certain matters. This Section clearly gives this, I suggest to the House, within the words:
  "may restrict the amount of contributions in any manner and make the payment of contributions subject to any conditions."
  The condition here is that there should be repayment if there had been payment in mistake. In the other parts, we are dealing with specific matters which, at first sight, might not be thought to come within it. But, in this case, we are dealing with something which, I think, does come within it. The first point is that the Scheme comes generally within the Section.
  Secondly, I am asked why it is found necessary to say this at all. With the greatest respect to the hon. and learned Gentleman who has raised the point, I do not think there ought to be any doubt about it at all. In the case of Lander v. the London County Council in 1949, after a considerable amount of discussion, I agree, it was decided in the case of a voluntary payment that there was this right of recovery. That was decided in that case, and that is the law now, but, unfortunately, it is not realised by a large number of people. I do not believe that we are doing anything unconstitutional in pointing out to the readers of this document that this is the case.
  There may be some people, though I do not suppose that the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) is one of them, who might be embarrassed or who might be rather worse off in their legal profession because there is less doubt about the law. Some people might think it rather a good thing. There might be something in the Roman saying, "Ut sit finis litium." It certainly leaves no

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  doubt in the mind of the reader. We have often been told—the unfortunate man reads this awful document—but how is he to know? The wretched man will know if he reads paragraph 7 that if he receives money he ought not to have got, he has to pay it back again. We do not think that is a bad thing. That may not be an ultra legal point, but it seems to be one of common sense, and it seems to me sometimes not to be a bad thing if common sense and law go together.
  Mr. Mitchison: I quite appreciate the force of what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has so wittily said, but what I quite fail to understand is why in these circumstances this very curious paragraph goes into the Scheme. It proposes to put on a new condition and the right hon. and learned Gentleman has pointed out, quite rightly, what I had already read out of the Act, that there is power to put conditions of that kind into the Scheme. Surely it is the wrong way to do it. If you wish to say to a farmer, in plain English, "If you have received any money in mistake, you have to pay it back" the right thing is not to put it in a footnote to the Scheme. What the right hon. and learned Gentleman told us is pretty clear already. Why put it in the Scheme as a condition, and above all, when the Minister is called upon to account for this unprecedented innovation, why do it in a memorandum and say, "We have done it to clarify the situation?" It does not clarify it; it makes it far more obscure, if it is a mere statement of the law.
  The Attorney-General: It may make it more obscure to a lawyer, but it makes it clearer to members of the general public.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Draft Fertilisers (United Kingdom) Scheme, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.

  U.S.S.R. AND CHINA (U.K. TRADE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Brigadier Mackeson.]
  10.54 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: It is my duty tonight to raise a matter that has received a great deal of publicity over the past fortnight, and which is causing a good deal of bewilderment and intense interest in the county, one of whose representatives I have the honour to be. This is the account we have had of large so-called trade agreements being signed in Moscow for the sale of textiles both to the U.S.S.R. and China. The textile industry is, of course, suffering at the moment and when it sees these large sums mentioned and the language of contract being used, the thirsty mouths look upward.
  My first point is that it would be a very wicked thing, when the textile industry is in the state it is, for anybody to raise hopes of orders for an industry which is thirsting for orders when there is no serious intention of them being fulfilled. I beg my hon. Friend who is to reply to give as much up to date information as Her Majesty's Government may have as to how seriously these reports are to be taken.
  That the motives on the part of the other contracting parties may not be the ordinary commercial motives is, I think, quite clear from the fact that they have not used the ordinary trade channels for the purchase of British textiles, channels which have been wide open for some time and practically unused. On the other hand, I do not think we should dismiss lightly that fact or that we should write off orders or contracts merely because the agency through which they have come is unusual. My hon. Friend made a speech on Friday in which he stated that those who went to the Moscow Conference were amateurs disporting themselves. With great respect I suggest that sometimes amateurs can get further than professionals. There is no harm in seeing if we cannot do so this time.
  It may well be that the motives of the Russians and the Chinese are purely those of publicity and propaganda. If we can sell textiles to satisfy those motives and can get something worth

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  having in exchange that does not worry us. Surely we are strong enough and firm enough in our own cause to risk a little propaganda from the other side of the Iron Curtain if we can get orders for textiles and get the wheels of trade turning again in this vital commodity.
  Apart from the motives of publicity and propaganda it may well be that this is another of those cases in totalitarian societies where either the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing—an example in Government agencies not unknown even in this country—or that the right hand is trying to trump the left hand and that some agency behind the Iron Curtain is trying to steal a march on another Government agency. The workings of these things are bewildering and obscure but do not let us, on account of that obscurity, take up the position that this is a lot of nonsense and can be ignored.
  Sometimes, to take the Russians for example—in the past they have conducted trade contracts, which have been very beneficial to both sides, in a blaze of publicity. Sometimes they have gone to the opposite extreme and have shunned all publicity at any cost. In the 1930's, I am told, quite a considerable trade in textiles was done with Soviet Russia through the unexpected agency of a vicar residing in Hull, and it would be difficult to think of a less likely agency than that example. The unexpected in the case of dealing with the Russians, or the Chinese for that matter, is often the most successful. I therefore ask that the matter should not be written off on that account.
  There is another and perhaps more sinister motive and, here again, we must weigh it carefully. It has been said in the "Economist" that in the case of prospective sales to China, at any rate, the object of the Chinese is to cut out our trade channels in Hong Kong, with the intention of ruining Hong Kong. There, of course, we have an experienced and skilled organisation which knows the Chinese market in textiles very well. The "Economist" suggests that this is an attempt by the present Government of China to squeeze out Hong Kong, and from that concludes that we should reject offers on that account.
  Is that right? If these offers from Chinese buyers of textiles come direct,
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  or from agencies other than those of Hong Kong, is it right to refuse them simply because we do not like to see our traders in Hong Kong suffering? I do not understand the logic of that argument. It means, presumably, that not only must Hong Kong suffer, but Lancashire also. I do not see how it benefits Lancashire if Hong Kong is to be ruined, or how the ruin of Lancashire will benefit Hong Kong. Although this serious argument deserves serious consideration, I suggest that, on balance, it would not be right to compel the channelling of these orders through Hong Kong.
  I want to be brief, so as to give my hon. Friend adequate time to reply, because I am sure that he would wish, if he can, to allay public anxieties, and public hopes, as both are growing in the textiles areas, which are having a bad time now. I have no doubt that there will be a temptation to try to do something for the textile areas at the expense of the strategic ban which has been rightly placed upon the export of strategic materials to countries behind the Iron Curtain. I am sure that it would be wrong to whittle away that ban merely on account of the present plight of the textile manufacturers of this country. Either that ban is strategically right, or it is strategically wrong. The plight of the textile industry of this country cannot logically have any effect on that decision.
  I have no doubt that the export of strategic, or of so-called strategic, materials has been examined by the Government as a whole and by all the Departments, and that it would be wrong for the Service Departments to be pressed to modify their opinions upon what is, or is not, strategically valuable merely on account of the plight of the textile areas. If this were put to the workers and managements in the textile industry I am sure that they would not want to sell the strategic peace even for trade orders; because one could get a lot of orders for the industry of this country if one were prepared to give with textiles in exchange or—to use perhaps a controversial case—a lot of jet engines.
  I do beg the Government not to weaken on that point, but to view the strategic question of the export of minerals and manufactured metal goods objectively and, although I say this perhaps against the immediate interest of

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  my constituents, not to take into account the plight of the textile trade. If these matters were put to them I am sure they would agree that these considerations must be divorced. I am sorry that this matter has to be raised at this late hour, because there is great public interest in it. If it could have been raised earlier I believe there would have been a larger attendance and greater opportunity for hon. Members to express their views. I beg my hon. Friend not to write off what has been done because they were done by amateurs.
  Many surprising things happen in Moscow and they are not always to our disadvantage. I therefore beg the Secretary for Overseas Trade to treat this subject seriously and give us as far as possible such information as he can, because Lancashire is crying out for information on the subject—and not only Lancashire.
  11.6 p.m.
  The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. Henry Hopkinson): I am sure that the House will be grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) for providing us with an opportunity of discussing this matter this evening. I can assure him that I certainly have no desire to treat it as nonsense. I used the expression "amateurs" in my speech the other day because I was comparing those attending the Conference on that occasion with the highly experienced British businessmen in China who, at this moment, are being forced out through lack of trade and other difficulties put in their way.
  I certainly do not intend to treat this as nonsense, but I think it would be equally wrong to let those engaged in the textile industry believe that these proposals will provide a solution to all their present difficulties. In view of conditions in Lancashire and Yorkshire the export of British textiles is of paramount importance and we must neglect no opportunity of fostering this trade.
  In these circumstances, sensational reports of offers emanating from the Moscow Economic Conference have, naturally, aroused the greatest interest. It was a meeting of private persons—economists, industrialists and trade unionists and others and—on the side of the Iron Curtain countries—of officials. I do not propose to go into the motives
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  of those present. Some of them were there undoubtedly for ideological reasons and others with a genuine desire to get business. Others, equally, were certainly there from a desire to improve international relations. Her Majesty's Government were not invited to take part and it is significant that Soviet visas were refused for all non-Communist newspaper representatives who wished to report the proceedings.
  On 4th February my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) stated that it was clear that the true purpose of the Conference was to organise popular pressure in non-Communist countries against the present restrictions on the export of strategic materials to Russia, and against the defence programme of the Western Powers.
  In addition to seeking to influence Western exporters to press for the removal of our strategic export controls, the Russians undoubtedly wished to appear as the champions of increased East-West trade. It was, I may say, the theme of almost every speech made by the delegates of the Soviet Union and the Eastern European countries at the meeting of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe which I attended at Geneva in March. When, at that meeting, I made an appeal to the Eastern European countries to buy more of our textiles and consumer goods, I received no encouragement at all.
  Nevertheless, the Soviet delegate, at any rate, must have known, or should have known, that in September, 1951, the Board of Trade had officially handed to the Soviet Trade Delegation in London a long list of textiles and other consumer goods which the United Kingdom was anxious to sell to Russia. It was not until the Moscow Economic Conference that any indication was given that the Russians would be willing to consider buying our textiles.
  Let me say at once that Her Majesty's Government are perfectly ready to take advantage of any genuine arrangements for exporting more of our textiles, no matter how unorthodox the method of negotiation may have been. We still have no full report of the conference, nor have we received any proposals from the Governments of the U.S.S.R., the other Eastern European countries, or China as a result of it. The Board of Trade has

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  received reports from certain individual members of the British delegation, but there is still a good deal of doubt exactly what exchanges of goods are contemplated.
  Before dealing with the arrangements as they are known to us, I must say one thing to bring the offers coming from Moscow into perspective. The maximum value of the orders for textiles is, according to our calculations, about £12 million. That would be very useful, but it must be remembered that the total United Kingdom exports of textiles in 1951 were worth £578 million. Furthermore, there seems to be very little doubt that a large proportion of any Soviet bloc purchases would be what I might call textile raw materials, such as wool tops, staple fibre, and yarns, which they already buy to a certain extent from us.
  In this connection, I might mention that the value of our textile exports to the Soviet bloc in 1951 was about £3,500,000, of which all but £46,000 represented wool tops and raw materials. The actual increase, therefore, would be very much smaller than would appear to be the case, and the only significant development which we can foresee so far may be Russian purchases of piece goods and clothing. I understand that they were interested only in woollens.
  According to the rather scrappy information at present available to us, the following agreements were signed by the members of the United Kingdom delegation. As far as I know, no contracts at all have been signed. First, there was a deal with the Soviet Union to buy textiles to the value of between £2–3 million, in return for non-essential Russian products. We have had a number of inquiries about this Russian offer since the various reports came in, and we have advised exporters to get in touch with the Soviet Trade Delegation in this country, making it clear to them that both before and since the conference we have strongly recommended the desirability of selling textiles to the Soviet Union.
  Second, there are agreements of which we have information only from the Press, relating to deals with Bulgaria, Roumania, and Eastern Germany. In each case we should apparently export textiles, and we should take in return various imports from these countries. Lastly, there was
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  an agreement on trade with China. This we know rather more about, because the chairman of a group of British delegates, who actually signed an agreement with the manager of the China National Import-Export Corporation, deposited the signed English and Chinese original texts with the Board of Trade on his return to England.
  Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Mr. Perry?
  Mr. Hopkinson: No, this was not Mr. Perry; it was Mr. Lorimer. He made it quite clear to the Chinese that he had signed solely as a private individual, and on his return he submitted it to us so that we might decide how best to implement it. The details of the agreement are as follows: The United Kingdom and China will sell to one another goods to the value of £10 million on or before 31st December, 1952. The United Kingdom sales to China would consist to the extent of 35 per cent. of textiles, 30 per cent. of chemicals, and 35 per cent. of metals. The Chinese sales to the United Kingdom would consist of coal, bristles, and hog casings amounting to 25 per cent., eggs in various forms, amounting to 20 per cent., and certain agreed Chinese produce, which was not defined, amounting to 55 per cent.
  According to reports from a variety of sources only the textiles would be British products. The chemicals and possibly the metals would, according to unconfirmed reports that we have received, be supplied from Eastern Germany for sterling payment. There is some doubt whether the coal, which would be supplied by the Chinese, would be bunker or coking coal. The Chinese also, apparently, among the agreed Chinese products, undertook to supply soya beans and tung oil. There is nothing in this agreement further to indicate whether the trade contemplated would be additional to the present trade, or whether it would form part of the regular pattern of trade.
  I should perhaps here inform the House, to put the matter in proper perspective, that the total value of textiles exported to China in 1951 was under £400,000, consisting almost entirely of wool tops. It is difficult to assess the the total Anglo-Chinese trade, because of the re-exports from Hong Kong, which cannot be calculated, but, in 1951, we

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  think that it balanced at roughly about £20 million each way.
  As in the case of Soviet Russia and the Eastern European satellites, we welcome any prospect of increased business in textiles in any of the forms mentioned in the agreement. None of them is regarded by us as of strategic importance, but, as regards the chemicals and metals, we must reserve judgment, because many kinds of chemicals and practically all metals are not available on both strategic and supply grounds. Even if the exports were to take place from Eastern Germany, we could certainly not approve any agreement which involved shipment of prohibited goods.
  The House will wish to know what action the Board of Trade is taking on these agreements. When the reports first appeared in the Press of contracts signed in Moscow, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade wrote personally to the Head of the Soviet Trade Delegation offering the assistance of the Board of Trade in the whole matter. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary also telegraphed to our Chargé d'Affaires in Pekin instructing him to inform the Central People's Government that Her Majesty's Government had noted the decision reported from Moscow to increase substantially China's trade with the United Kingdom, and, in his telegram, he expressed the hope, that they would receive an early intimation of the nature of the Chinese proposals and of the channels through which it was intended to pursue the suggestions outlined in Moscow. At the same time, the Chargé d'Affaires was instructed to point out that there were numerous established British merchants in Shanghai and Hong Kong who were well qualified to carry out such arrangements with the Chinese People's Government or its representatives.
  This brings me to the crux of the whole matter. Although the Government will very gladly take advantage of any openings for extending the export of our textiles to the Soviet Union, to Eastern Europe or to China which may arise as a result of the Moscow Conference, it must
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  be borne in mind that there was no need for these international deals to await the Moscow Conference before they could be arranged. They could at any time have been negotiated through the Soviet Trade Delegation in London, through the Embassies of the Eastern European Powers over here, through our Chargé d'Affaires in Pekin, as the case may be, or through the normal commercial channels.
  Even when it is asserted that satisfactory results have only been achieved in Moscow because businessmen were able to meet businessmen in Moscow, as I have seen it asserted, we must ask ourselves these questions: Who has prevented meetings of businessmen in such matters as these? Who, at the present time, is seeking to strangle the activities of British traders in China? Every day the difficulties of British merchants in Shanghai and elsewhere in China have been becoming greater. The Chinese Government's object now seems to be to squeeze our businessmen right out of China.
  In regard to Hong Kong, I am not in a position to comment on that particular point, but all the signs point in that direction. Only yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary referred to the Note which he has been obliged to address to the Chinese People's Government about the detention incommunicado of British subjects and other foreigners, which method is used as one of the means of bringing pressure to bear upon them to discourage their trading activities.
  Having regard to the size and volume of these agreements, to the difficulties involved, and, above all, to the needs of Lancashire and Yorkshire, we gladly welcome, of course, the prospect of increased trade. We shall do everything we can to further it and we hope it will materialise, but it is a matter for speculation whether, in view of the considerations to which I have referred, there will be any practical results.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Town and Country Planning
  Town and Country Planning
  New Town Corporations (Members' Remuneration)
  New Town Corporations (Members' Remuneration)
  Motor Car Allowances
  Motor Car Allowances
  Outdoor Advertising
  Outdoor Advertising
  BUILDING LICENCES
  BUILDING LICENCES
  AGRICULTURE (FOREIGN WORKERS)
  AGRICULTURE (FOREIGN WORKERS)
  HOME GUARD (PENSIONERS' RIGHTS)
  HOME GUARD (PENSIONERS' RIGHTS)
BRITISH ARMY
  Z Reserve Call-up
  Z Reserve Call-up
  Army and Air Force (Annual) Act
  Army and Air Force (Annual) Act
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Macclesfield Textile Design (Infringement)
  Macclesfield Textile Design (Infringement)
  Hotel Project, London
  Hotel Project, London
  Moscow Trade Conference
  Moscow Trade Conference
  Textiles (Government Contracts)
  Textiles (Government Contracts)
  Jute Control (Trading Profit)
  Jute Control (Trading Profit)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Hydrocarbon Oils (Duty)
  Hydrocarbon Oils (Duty)
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Defence Regulation 78
  Defence Regulation 78
  Wholesale and Capital Equipment Prices
  Wholesale and Capital Equipment Prices
  Annuities (Taxation)
  Annuities (Taxation)
  Farthings
  Farthings
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
  CIVIL SERVICE (WORKING CONDITIONS)
  CIVIL SERVICE (WORKING CONDITIONS)
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (BORROWER'S TICKET CHARGES)
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (BORROWER'S TICKET CHARGES)
  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE, SCOTLAND (PRESCRIPTIONS)
  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE, SCOTLAND (PRESCRIPTIONS)
  POLICE (WASTAGE AND RECRUITMENT)
  POLICE (WASTAGE AND RECRUITMENT)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

RAILWAY FARES
2.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have a statement to make on railway fares.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF TRANSPORT, FUEL AND POWER (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, I should like to make a statement about railway fares similar to that made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place yesterday. The need for fare increases has arisen from advances in working costs incurred mainly during the administration of the previous Government. The increases were authorised by the Transport Tribunal as prescribed in the Transport Act, 1947, after they had received from the British Transport Commission a draft Passenger Charges scheme and held a public inquiry. The scheme, with modifications, was confirmed by the Tribunal on February 27, and, by order of the Tribunal, came into force in London four days later on March 2. Until the scheme came into operation, it was not possible to measure the full effects of the use which the British Transport Commission had made of its discretionary powers under the scheme.
My honourable friend the Minister of Transport did, however, on March 11, refer to the Central Transport Consultative Committee alterations in London of fare stages and fares in relation to them. The Committee have submitted their report; they accept the need for these increases and make no complaint of the manner in which the Transport Commission has exercised its discretionary powers. But, for reasons which will appear from what I have to say later, the Government are themselves considering
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whether any action should be taken in respect of the disproportionate increases in sub-standard fares in London.
Outside London the scheme does not come into force until May 1. The Government were, therefore, able to inform themselves more precisely of the effect of these proposed increases, and as a result they decided that some further delay must be imposed in order that these proposals could be more fully considered in relation to the general scheme of transport reform which they have in hand. They were particularly concerned at certain exceptionally severe changes in the cost of workmen's tickets and season tickets; and they also considered that some of the proposed changes in concession fares ought not to be imposed upon the public without Parliamentary discussion.
For instance, an increase of 40 per cent. was to be made in the following cases of concession fares: anglers, commercial travellers, Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, Mercantile Marine going on leave, children at training schools and ships, shipwrecked mariners, entertainers and music hall artistes, agricultural workers (return fare), visitors to children at approved schools, and poor children on holiday sponsored by voluntary bodies. These examples are not of major financial consequence, but they raise issues which in our opinion should not he settled without the attention of the Government of the day and of Parliament, to which the Government is responsible.
As a result of our consideration of all these matters, the Minister of Transport felt it his duty on April 15 to give a direction to the British Transport Commission, as a result of which the increases which the Commission proposed to make under the scheme have been suspended, though certain reductions required by the scheme will come into force on May 1. The Minister proposes to seek the views of the Consultative Committee on the question of railway fares outside London, and naturally before reaching a full and final decision he must await their report.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, in view of the statement made by the Prime Minister in another place that a White Paper upon the Government's transport policy will be published at an

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early date, I should like to ask the noble Viscount the Deputy Leader of the House whether he can give the House an assurance that a debate upon this matter will be arranged as soon as possible, through the usual channels.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, I will gladly give that undertaking. Perhaps we might arrange, through the usual channels, how long the Opposition would like to study the White Paper before we hold a debate.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for what he has said.

POSTAL ORDERS
2.45 p.m.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the total issue of Postal Orders in their main denominations for the year 1951.]
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, the total issue of postal orders for the year 1951 was about 500,000,000. As the information required about the main denominations is lengthy, I will, with the noble Lord's permission, circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply.
Following are the figures referred to:

17,000,000 at 6d.

36,000,000 at 1s.

25,000,000 at 1s. 6d.

64,000,000 at 2s.

50,000,000 at 2s. 6d.

45,000,000 at 3s.

18,000,000 at 3s. 6d.

27,000,000 at 4s.

13,000,000 at 4s. 6d.

44,000,000 at 5s.

19,000,000 at 6s.

10,000,000 at 8s.

19,000,000 at 10s.

47,000,000 at 20s.

PRINCESS FLYING BOATS
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to state their intentions as to the future of the Princess flying boats.]
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, the first Princess flying boat is nearing completion and will undergo flight trials with Proteus II engines. Completion of the two other flying boats on order has been postponed, as it is advisable to wait for the more powerful Proteus III engine and, meanwhile, to reduce current expenditure and release capacity for other work.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Viscount for his reply, may I ask him, in view of the statement in the Civil Appropriation Accounts, what Her Majesty's Government intend to do with the first Princess flying boat when she is completed?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, she will engage in experimental flying, of which I understand a great deal will be required.

BRABAZON AIRCRAFT
2.48 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to state their intentions as to the future of the Brabazon I and of the second Brabazon prototype.]
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, the first Brabazon aircraft, which has piston engines, was built for experimental use. The aircraft is now in the course of its development flying and it is intended that that work should proceed. As regards the second Brabazon aircraft, it was earlier intended that it should be fitted in the first instance with Bristol Proteus II propeller-turbine engines. However, it has become evident that great economy would be achieved by waiting for the production of the more powerful Proteus III engines which are not yet available.

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It has, therefore, been decided to postpone for the time being the work of completing the second Brabazon.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, with regard to the first Brabazon, as this machine is completed and her trials must now be concluded, may I ask the Government whether they will put her on the London—Paris route this summer, as she would be a great attraction to travellers?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I should not like to give an answer to that question offhand. In order to prepare the Brabazon for civil transport, a great deal of work and expenditure would have to be incurred. Whether that would be a practical proposition—by which I mean an economic proposition—would be a matter for consideration between the B.E.A., who presumably would charter her, and the Ministry of Supply. If the cost were out of proportion to the revenue which would be received, while it might ultimately he attractive to travellers it might not be equally attractive to the British taxpayer.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, it might be as attractive as to keep her doing nothing. In any case, I understand that B.E.A. are anxious to use her and that she is in fact almost ready for use, apart from the seating. If the seating were put in to the standards which would be required, she could be used very soon. I would ask the Government to make up their minds one way or the other, because the aircraft would be a great attraction and a great revenue-earner on this route.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am perfectly certain that the Government will make up their minds as soon as they have a definite proposition put to them. I answer only as I am informed, and I did ask about this matter. It is by no means certain that B.E.A., looking at it as a commercial proposition, would wish to make the necessary overtures to the Ministry of Supply. I understand that putting in the seating is not just like putting a garden chair or two on the lawn on a fine day. It would he a pretty extensive and expensive operation.

MINERS' WELFARE BILL
2.51 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 1 [Cessation of royalties levy and dissolution of Commission]:
THL EARL OF SELKIRK: This is no more than a grammatical Amendment and it relates to a date given in the Bill. The Bill says that the welfare levy shall cease on March 31. As March 31 has passed we desire to alter the Bill accordingly. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, leave out ("cease") and insert ("be deemed to have ceased").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
VISCOUNT HALL: In the absence of my noble friend, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, I have been asked to state that we shall offer no objection to these Amendments. We regard them as agreed. There is, however, one of them on which I should like to ask the noble Earl a question presently.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment to alter the date for dissolving the Commission from June 16 to July 1 is necessary because there is a good deal of accounting to be settled up, and July 1 is about as soon as the matter can be put straight. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 1, leave out ("sixteenth day of June") and insert ("first day of July").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Amendment of 9 & 10 Geo. 6. c. 59, s. 41]:
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This is a similar Amendment to the one I have already moved. It alters the appointed day. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 35, leave out ("sixteenth day of June") and insert ("first day of July").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved, after Clause 13, to insert the following new clause:
Superannuation
". In section thirty-seven of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946 (which provides for the making of regulations with respect to pensions, gratuities and other like benefits) the reference to the Board in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) shall be construed as including a reference to the Social Welfare Organisation."
The noble Earl said: In moving this new clause which was envisaged in my Second Reading speech, I should explain that the purpose is to enable the employees of the Organisation to be brought into the same pension scheme as the employees of the National Coal Board. It is done by extending the scope of Section 37 of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, and thus enabling regulations to be made which will cover the employees of the Organisation. At the present time the numbers at headquarters are not expected to be more than about twenty. It is obvious that an obligation for pension rights continues in respect of former employees of the Miners' Welfare Commission, and this is thought to be the most convenient way in which to deal with the Organisation's staff.
VISCOUNT HALL: I offer no objection to this Amendment, but there is a question I should like to put to the noble Earl, and that is in relation to the number of Workmen's Institutes which have in some way been brought into close touch with the Commission and, of course, will be affected by this Bill. I must declare an interest, because for over fifty years I have been a member of one of these Institutes which was established long before the Miners' Welfare Commission came into existence. Many of these Institutes have done excellent work and will go on doing so. My own was established in the early 1880's by the grandfather of the present Lord Aberdare, who did an enormous amount of work for young people. I can claim to have benefited greatly myself from the quality
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of the books put into the library of that Institute. I want to satisfy myself and others that there will be no interference in relation to these Institutes which were established long before the Miners' Welfare Fund was established, and, of course, have continued their independent existence with the exception of the acceptance of model rules under which they are entitled to certain of the benefits of the Miners' Welfare Fund.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am glad the noble Viscount has raised that point. I did touch on it slightly in my Second Reading speech. The position is that the Organisation takes over certain property of the Miners' Welfare Commission but it does not touch in any way what was known as the social welfare trusts and agreements which already exist. They will remain fully decentralised under precisely the same trustees as exist at the present time. The only way in which their position will be changed will be that instead of being assisted by the Miners' Welfare Commission they will be assisted by the Organisation. So far as control and management are concerned, they will remain entirely as before. Accordingly this new clause affects only employees of the Organisation itself. I think, therefore, that the work of which the noble Viscount and other noble Lords have spoken with such warmth and feeling will continue. We all know it has been of great value.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 14 to 16 agreed to.
Clause 17 [Short title, commencement, extent and repeals]:
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The first Amendment to Clause 17 is purely formal. The words in the first paragraph are no longer necessary. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 23, leave out from ("1952") to end of line 24.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment is also formal. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 27, leave out ("shall be") and insert ("are hereby").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment, too, is formal. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 30, leave out ("on") and insert ("as from").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clause, as amended, agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL
3.0 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY):
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I understand that it is possible to speak on this Motion. As, by general consent, we did not speak on this topic on Second Reading but devoted the day then to the discussion of other matters, perhaps I might use this, which is the only general occasion in the debate, to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill one or two questions, the answers to which may well much facilitate our proceedings this afternoon. As I remember, this Bill is a very old Bill. No one has looked at it, from the point of view of amendment, for many years. All past Governments alike have been in default in not putting it into proper shape. Now the attempt is being made, and I am sure that everybody applauds it. It was quite apparent during the debates in another place that there was inadequate time for the Bill to be properly considered by the Houses of Parliament.
This is a Bill with a date—it must pass before April 30—and in view of that difficulty it was decided in another place to set up a Select Committee, which I think was the common-sense way to deal with this matter. At the same time, the fact that they made that decision does not in the least absolve this House
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from its legislative duty to examine the details of the Bill and its effect upon the citizens of this country who may go into the Army under the Act. Therefore, from the earliest time when this Bill was introduced into the House, I have endeavoured to get from the Government an answer to this simple question: Is this House to be joined with the Committee in the examination of this Bill, so that the details can be considered quietly and with all the expert knowledge that we need, or have we to discuss it in Committee, as we shall do shortly, and do the best we can there? If the Government are able to say that the Bill will be considered, either by a Committee of our own House or by a Joint Select Committee, we shall be able to discharge our duty in that way, and I need explain only in a word or two what my Amendments mean. If, on the other hand, we do not have a Select Committee, then I do not know quite what to do. I can point out some of the very serious issues which I consider are raised by this Bill and I shall be absolved of any dereliction of my duty as a member of this House in that matter.
A statement from the noble Lord in charge of the Bill that we are to join with the Committee of another place, or that we are to have our own Committee, would be quite satisfactory and, I believe, would be much the best way of proceeding. If, on the other hand, the noble Lord says "No," then I shall ask the Lord Chairman to call on my Amendments and I shall explain briefly what they mean. If the noble Lord will allow me, let me make this plain—I know something about this because I have served on Select Committees in another place. A Select Committee in another place is very much a matter with which we have nothing to do. Noble Lords are entitled to attend a Select Committee in another place only as "strangers." If any member of the Committee asks the Chairman of the Committee to exclude "strangers," then noble Lords are bundled out into the corridor, together with other strangers from the public, and are excluded from the proceedings of the Committee. It is a very good way of conducting business from the point of view of another place, but from our point of view, unless some joint effort is made, I do not think we are doing the task which we have been set. Therefore, the only I reason why I raise this general question

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(I understand that I am in order) is to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill whether he can give us some information about the opportunity which members of this House will have to deal with the complicated details of this antiquated Bill.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, I think the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, has put the position very clearly and fairly. I wish I could immediately give him the assurance for which he asks about a Joint Select Committee. He put the argument for such a Committee with great clarity and force. I find myself in complete agreement with the way in which he has advanced it. But I should be lacking in candour if I said that at this moment there was complete agreement between the two main Parties in the State (I am not talking about this House) upon a Joint Select Committee. I do not know whether it would be improper for me to suggest that the noble Viscount should use his persuasive powers on some of his colleagues in another place, because I quite agree that, if one House sets up a Select Committee on this very important Bill, the other House—in this case, the House of Lords—cannot be bound by the Report of that Committee.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: It might have its own Committee.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: There are disadvantages in having separate Committees, as anybody will see; but, of course, if the other House set up their Select Committee, we should not be inhibited thereby from setting up our own. I have hopes that what I call reason will prevail and that it will be possible to have a Joint Select Committee, but I should be misleading the noble Viscount if I invited him not to move his Amendments to-day in the certainty that such a Committee would come about, although, of course, I hope it will. Therefore I must leave it to the noble Viscount's discretion to decide whether he will move his Amendments. I can assure him that my colleagues and I will, to the best of our ability, answer the points he makes. There are matters which ought to be considered by a Joint Select Committee, who ought to go into the Bill in detail, as we all agree; but, again I must not
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mislead the noble Viscount into withdrawing his Amendments without giving him a corresponding guarantee, which I cannot at this moment give.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords. I should like to say that I am in full agreement with the arguments used by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, as they apply to a Joint Select Committee. I confess that I feel that the appointment of two separate Committees would have all the disadvantages which my noble friend has pointed out. I hope that the argument in favour of a Joint Select Committee of both Houses will in the end prevail.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords I have no right to speak again. I was merely speaking on the Question the Chair.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 1 [Short Title]:
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Perhaps this is the right point for me to raise a question I had in mind. Is it correct to describe this as an "Annual Bill" when it is to last for fifteen months?
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: Noble Lords will notice that, purely and logically, the noble Viscount is possibly right, that it should, for this year, be called whatever is the Latin name for "fifteen months"—which at the moment I do not know. I think I am in order in speaking on it. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor points out, I am sure very justly, that an Annual Bill is a Bill which comes in once a year and not necessarily once every twelve months within the calendar year—so perhaps that absolves me from my difficulty. On Clause 2 we shall be discussing an Amendment on that point, and, further, I have an Amendment down amending the title of the Bill, if the noble Viscount would like to discuss the point on those two Amendments.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: No, I have not the least desire to debate the point. I am rather afraid of a debate on this

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point. It is not an Annual Bill. Mr. Asquith once said in rebutting an argument: "What I cannot face is the incurable sloppiness of the argument." I think that is a very fair description of this Bill, which was described in the title, first of all, as an annual Bill, although its duration was to be fifteen months. Then the noble Lord himself introduced an Amendment to line 36 which would have given no discipline at all to any of the Services between March and July. Then, during the Easter holidays, he discovered what he had done and put down a second Amendment. I have no comment to make on that. I have no doubt that at some time some draftsman somewhere, will put it in order. I just put that forward as some justification for watchfulness on the part of Opposition members of the House.
On Question, Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Army Act and Air Force Act to be in force for specified times
2.—(1) The Army Act and the Air Fore Act shall be and remain in force during the periods hereinafter mentioned, and no longer, unless otherwise provided by Parliament, that is to say:—
(a) within Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, from the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and fifty-two, to the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and fifty-three, both inclusive; and
3.11 p.m.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved, in subsection (1) (a) to leave out "thirtieth day of April" and insert "thirty-first day of July." The noble Lord said: I beg to move this Amendment, which in some measure we have already discussed. It has been said that the fact that Vote A must be agreed to by March 31, and that the present Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill must be passed by April 30 means that not long enough time is allowed for discussion. Therefore, with the object in view of extending the possible time for discussion, it is proposed to substitute for the "thirtieth day of April" the "thirty-first day of July." I hope that I shall have the concurrence of noble Lords opposite in this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 37, leave out ("thirtieth day of April") and insert ("thirty-first day of July").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
LORD OGMORE: There has been some slight confusion because two separate Amendments were put on the Order Paper, and now we have only one. As I understand it, the object is to make the period alike under Clause 2 (1) (a) and Clause 2 (1) (b). If I am right in that assumption, I have no objection at all to the Amendment now moved.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I should like to ask a question in regard to subsection (3). It may be common form and I have not had an opportunity of checking it, but what is the meaning of the words
"A person subject to military law … shall not be exempted … by reason only that the number of the forces for the time being… is either greater or less than the numbers hereinbefore mentioned."?
Those numbers are mentioned in the preamble.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I think we ought first to dispose of the Amendment before the Committee. Then perhaps the noble Viscount would raise his point when I put the Question, that the clause stand part of the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 2, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Now is the correct time to ask this question. It may be common form (I do nit know, and there are much greater experts in this House than I), but it appeared to me that the control exercised by the public over the Armed Forces took two forms. First, there is Vote A and Vote 1 which are controlled by another place and which, of course, are the outcome of civil war. Then there is the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, which I suppose derives from the Bill of Rights, and which, I understand, imposes discipline for one year upon a number of men who have been voted an amount of money by another place. Then, on reading the Bill, I observe that, even though the Army is greater than the number for which provision has been made, the discipline is to be the same. I do not understand what the words mean. It seems to be a provision inserted by legal experts to be on

259
the safe side. No doubt the noble Lord can explain. It may well he that it is in accord with precedent.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: This is well in accord with precedent, and I have no doubt that the noble Viscount is right in saying that it was put in by legal experts to be on the safe side. The number of men who are kept under arms is stated precisely as 550,000. If, as sometimes happens, the number recruited actually exceeds that figure before the Supplementary Estimate is brought in under Vote A, we shall still want the Forces to be disciplined. It seems to me that this is a reasonable provision, and I do not think noble Lords opposite who have served in the Service Ministries will have any recollection that it has been abused.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Amendment of definition of "active service"]:
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: This, of course, is the most difficult of all the clauses in this Bill. I have put down an Amendment to Clause 6 dealing with punishment for offences on active service. I am not really qualified to explain it; it requires great legal skill. But I think this House should take it carefully into consideration. In the first place, we now have many more people in the Army. Practically the whole of the nation passes through the Army. I was surprised when I was told by a Member of another place that at public meetings taking place now, the keenest interest is being displayed in regard to the conditions and the possible punishments which may fall upon these boys who are being drawn in as National Service recruits. Therefore it behoves us to be extremely careful that we revise this Bill in a way suitable to modern conditions.
Here, of course, I am speaking purely as a layman. The most important difference in punishment is that between the man who is on "active service," as we always understood it—meaning "in the face of the enemy," and the man who is serving before the war emergency, or whatever the right legal term is, has occurred. All this has become extremely obscure in Clause 3. On reading that
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clause in conjunction with Section 189 of the Army Act, I think most noble Lords would join with me in begging the Lord Chancellor to give us a clear exposition of the whole position. Suppose a man on active service is drunk, or asleep as a sentry, that is a very serious offence, and is actually punishable by death. But if a man is asleep when he happens to be on duty somewhere else, it is a slight offence. Equally, if a man is drunk in those circumstances it is comparatively a slight offence. Therefore it is of tremendous importance that we should be careful in putting forward a definition of what is and what is not "active service." After all, the Bill is brought here for examination, and each of us has a duty to examine it to the best of his ability. I understand that under Section 189 of the Army Act there is a definition of "active service," and then three sorts of active service are given. It deals with a person who:
"forms part of a force which is engaged in operations against the enemy."
That is quite simple. It then goes on, as we used to say in the war
"or is engaged in military operations in a country wholly or partly occupied by the enemy."
That is comprehensible. Then, we have the third part:
"or is in military occupation of a foreign country."
That, also, is quite simple. But now this Bill amends that definition. It leaves in the part referring to a man being part of a force engaged in operations against the enemy; it leaves in the part regarding military occupation of a foreign country; but it takes out the central clause, and puts in these words:
"With a force … which is engaged in a foreign country in operations for the protection of life or property …"
That is the definition of "active service," and we must have a clear exposition of it.
Take the critical case of Egypt. The Treaty of Egypt explicitly declared that the troops in the Canal Zone did not in any way constitute an occcupation force. Then circumstances became more difficult; we were subjected to violence and we replied with violence. I understand—I do not know—that in some way we have passed from the condition of not being in military occupation into a condition of being on active service. I suppose the troops engaged, for example, in the

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recent operations at Ismailia were to be treated as troops on active service, because they were with a force which engaged in a foreign country in operations for the protection of life and property. I must present myself to the Lord Chancellor with some humility. I am not asking for information merely for the benefit of noble Lords on this side; I am asking for information which concerns young people of this country. If a man is stationed at Suez and is put as a sentry on the gangway of a ship that goes into the Suez at Port Said, he is part of the Egyptian forces. If he is at Tel-el-Kebir or Ismailia he is part of the Egyptian forces. He may at Tel-el-Kebir have had to deal with people trying to burn stores, or at Ismailia he may have met with the volunteer police when trying to attack. In these circumstances, is he or is he not on active service?
According to the Treaty of 1936, which reaffirmed the Condominium Agreement of 1899, certainly British troops in the Sudan were on the same footing as British troops in Egypt. Is a man in Khartoum to-day on active service? He is in a force part of which undoubtedly is engaged in protecting stores in the Egyptian desert from terrorist attack. I am not putting this point in order to make difficulties, but because many young men are being sent to these places, and what their parents want to know is whether or not their boys are being sent on active service, because the conditions of control and discipline are much harsher in such circumstances. That is the sort of question that arises. If the Lord Chancellor can give us an authoritative statement of the position, I shall be grateful. I should like to know whether this is a definition which stands as a definition. Suppose a man is brought up at a court-martial for being drunk on active service. He can put in a defence that he was not drunk, or he can put in a defence that he was not on active service. How is the court-martial to decide? Must it just read the statement referred to and say he was with a force "engaged in a foreign country in operations for the protection of life and property," or can it refer to something like the provisions of the second part of Section 189 of the Army Act, which lays it down that a commanding officer may put in orders that active service conditions prevail?
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I am told—and here again I am in great difficulty, but it is an important point and I think a Committee ought to consider it—that before this amendment was made, unless a commanding officer had declared that active service did exist there was no active service, except, of course, in the other condition—that is, that fighting was actually going on. The commanding officer could declare this state of affairs to exist under subsections (2), (3) and (4) of Section 189 of the Army Act. I am told that the Amendment has been made so that active service shall become a question of fact as defined in the Statute; therefore the commanding officer will not be concerned in the matter at all. In that case, one is bound to ask how long active service lasts. There was this instance at Ismailia. At one time the state of affairs in Ismailia constituted active service conditions, but now things are much quieter. But does a man out there remain on active service? Is a man going with a convoy to Alexandria to-day on active service, or is there some defined limit? These are questions which are very obscure. If the Lord Chancellor can give us some exposition, I think it would be very useful. If we cannot have a Committee to go into these matters—and, as I have said, I think they are essentially matters which we ought to have a Committee to examine—we must do the best we can here. Now, if the Lord Chancellor could give a simple exposition, bearing in mind that this is not asked for to satisfy critics on this side but in order that parents of young men who are being sent out into the Forces may know exactly the disciplinary conditions under which they are to serve, I am sure his statement will have great value.
3.26 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: On the Second Reading I raised a question with regard to this clause, and I am asking merely for elucidation from Her Majesty's Government—perhaps the noble and learned Lord Chancellor will reply—with regard to the third case in which active service applies. I would have raised no comment upon it had it not been for the statement of the Minister in another place which, I think, has thrown confusion upon this very clear section. As I see it, there are three cases in which active service applies. It applies when a person

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or a force is engaged in operations against an enemy—in Korea, for instance. In the second place, it applies if a person or a force is engaged in a foreign country in operations for the protection of life or property. That means, I take it, that if we had gone into Persia, that would have been a case where this section would have applied. The third instance covers any military occupation of a foreign country. That seems to me to be perfectly clear, and I hope that the Lord Chancellor will confirm that my reading is correct.
As I mentioned on Second Reading in dealing with this particular point, the Secretary of State for War in another place said (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons; Vol. 498, Col. 1611):
"I undertook to give—I could not do it last time because of the closure"—
So it was not a statement made on the spur of the moment; it was a considered statement, and this comes under all the rules of debate as being quotable—even in another place, where their rules are somewhat stricter than ours. The Secretary of State went on:
"… the areas as they stand at present, that is to say under normal conditions—not under military occupation—are Cyprus, Gibraltar, Malta, Hong Kong, Aden, Jamaica and Bermuda."
Most of those, of course, are British Colonies, so one would assume that to be the case. The Secretary of State continued:
"Under military occupation therefore—under active service—are Austria, Germany, Malaya, Korea, Trieste and the Canal Zone."
On Second Reading, I emphasised this point once more. I objected to Malaya and the Canal Zone being included with Austria, Germany, Korea and Trieste. Malaya, so far as Singapore is concerned, is a Crown Colony, and has been since it was founded by Stamford Raffles in 1819. For different periods, in some cases over a hundred years, but in no case since 1911, has any part of the peninsula of Malaya been other than under the protection of Her Majesty's Government or its predecessors. I think it is entirely wrong to regard our position there as military occupation.
The Secretary of State was attempting to define "military occupation of a foreign country." Incidentally, that is the only
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case in which the term "military occupation" is used. I have turned up Chapter 14 of the Manual of Military Law, and in Section VIII I found this, under the heading, "Occupation of Enemy Territory":
"The military occupation of enemy territory initiates a special relationship between the occupant and the population involving on each side certain rights and duties."
Later on this passage occurs:
"According to these Rules 'Territory is considered occupied when actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territories where such authority has been established and is in a position to assert itself'."
Section 346 says:
"It has been proposed as a test of occupation that two conditions should be satisfied: firstly, that the legitimate Government should, by the act of the invader, be rendered incapable of publicly exercising its authority; secondly, that the invader should be in a position to substitute his own authority for that of the legitimate Government."
I think your Lordships would agree that my concern that neither Malaya nor the Canal Zone should be regarded as having been invaded by Her Majesty's Forces in accordance with the definition of the Manual of Military Law is sound. I am sure that any statement of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will be much welcomed and appreciated.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): The noble Viscount has asked me to make an exposition of the law on this subject. I think that is rather a difficult task, but I will try, so far as I can, to answer some of the questions he has put to me. So far as the earlier part of his speech is concerned, I venture to think that he has been answered completely by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. Under Section 189 of the Army Act as it now stands "active service" is thus defined:
"In this Act, if not inconsistent with the context, the expression 'on active service' as applied to a person subject to military law means whenever he is attached to or forms part of a force which is engaged in operations against the enemy"—
I will come back in a moment to that expression, "the enemy" because it is important—
"or is engaged in military operations in a country or place wholly or partly occupied by an enemy, or is in military occupation of any foreign country."

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Of course, there must always be marginal cases where there is difficulty. Definition can never be so complete as to cover every conceivable case, unless it is made so complex and tortuous that eventually you defeat your own ends. I venture to think that the definition I have read is reasonably clear. The Amendment proposed by the new Bill is that
"'active service,' in relation to a person subject to military law, means service in or with a force which is engaged in operations against an enemy. …"
I said that I would come back to the words "an enemy," and it is convenient to do so now. In the Act as it stands, the expression "enemy" is defined thus:
"The expression 'enemy' includes"—
that means in addition to those persons whom one would normally regard as enemies—
"all armed mutineers, armed rebels, armed rioters and pirates."
Therefore, there is a wide scope for the first of these categories of persons engaged in operations against an enemy.
I must remind your Lordships that this Bill also amends the definition of "enemy" by adding to the definition in paragraph 20 of Section 190 of the Army Act and paragraph 20 of Section 190 of the Air Force Act the words:
"all persons engaged in armed operations against any of Her Majesty's Forces."
I think that puts it beyond doubt that, while in such a case as Malaya there is no question of military occupation, within the scope of that definition the forces engaged in Malaya are engaged against an enemy. These are the three categories, and I venture to think that no difficulty can really arise. I fully share the view of the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, that people should be in no doubt whether they are on active service or not, but I doubt whether it has occurred to anybody to wonder whether he is on active service or not. It must be as clear as a pikestaff to any soldier as soon as he joins his unit, and if there is any doubt about it, I am quite sure that he is told by the sergeant-major or by the appropriate non-commissioned officer.
Subsection (1) of Section 189, which I read, does not stand alone. I think the noble Viscount also referred to subsection (2). Indeed, it has been necessary also (the necessity is obvious) to include
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among persons who are under military law those who are or may be brought within the category by subsection (2). If I am not wearying the Committee, I should like to read subsection (2), and your Lordships will see how necessary it is. It is proposed to be preserved by the new Bill. The relevant words are as follows:
"Where the governor of a colony in which any of His Majesty's forces are serving, or it the forces are serving in a Dominion or out of His Majesty's dominions, the general officer or brigadier commanding such forces, declares at any time or times that, by reason of the imminence of active service or of the recent existence of active service, it is necessary for the public service that the Forces in the colony or under his command, as the case may be, should be temporarily subject to this Act, as if they were on active service, …"
As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, that is a subsection which has been used quite recently in different areas.
The noble Lord referred to Egypt. I wonder whether he will allow me to say this. I venture to think that at this moment, when most delicate negotiations are going on in regard to Egypt, it would be wiser not to say too much about the subject of why our Forces are in Egypt. At least we know that they have been engaged in active service. Anybody who has seen, as I have seen, the evidence of the incidents in various parts of Egypt, including the Canal Zone, in which warlike operations have taken place, will have no doubt that our forces have been on active service against an enemy, however we choose to define "enemy." May we leave it at that at the moment? There is no doubt that our troops there are on active service and subject to military law as on active service, and it would be a great pity if in this House any doubt were cast on their position in that regard. I should be very willing to help in any way on any aspect of this question. I repeat that we are endeavouring to make this as clear as we possibly can for the benefit of all concerned, but no doubt there will be certain cases which are borderline cases. If such a case arises, I have no doubt it will be soon cleared up. I am not sure whether I have answered all that the noble Lord said about military occupation. We are in military occupation of Trieste and of Germany, and we may be in military occupation of parts of Korea, although I am not sure about that. But if this is regarded as a practical matter,

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for the application of plain commonsense to each case, I do not think there will be any real doubt as to whether a soldier is on active service or not.
LORD OGMORE: I should be the last to wish to raise the case of Egypt or of Malaya. It was not we who raised it, but the Secretary of State for War. All I wanted to do was to make sure that the Bill means what it says. I think that what the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, has said is perfectly clear, and I should have no doubt about it were it not for the red herring drawn across the trail by the Secretary of State for War in another place. I quite understand that the noble and learned Lord does not wish to cast his Commons colleague overboard. I will leave it at that and assume that the matter is now clear.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I beg to move that the House be resumed for a few minutes, in order that I may make a Statement similar to that being made in another place.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Viscount Swinton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.

COTTON IMPORT COMMITTEE'S REPORT
3.44 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I should like to make a Statement in regard to the Report of the Cotton Import Committee which has just been made in another place.
The Report of the Cotton Import Committee which my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade and I set up has been laid before Parliament and is now available in the Printed Paper Office. The Committee, whose terms of reference were to consider how in the current foreign exchange position cotton could best be supplied to the United Kingdom cotton industry, included representatives of the cotton industry, the cotton merchants, the trade unions, the Cotton Board, and the Raw Cotton Commission, under the Chairmanship of the Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Hopkins. I am glad to say its Report is unanimous. I am sure that the House would wish me to express our gratitude to the Chairman
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and members for the work they have done.
The main feature of the Report is the recommendation that each year spinners will be given an option to buy their cotton on their own account, using merchants as they wish. The Raw Cotton Commission will continue to supply those who choose to buy from it. The Report recommends that the spinner shall make his choice annually of how he wishes to buy all his cotton in each of the main types. So long as the import of particular growths, for example, United States' cotton, has to be restricted for currency reasons, each spinner who chooses to buy these growths on his own account will be entitled to import a share calculated on the same basis as will apply to the Raw Cotton Commission. Entitlements shall be transferable so that spinners can thereby obtain the cotton best adapted to their particular requirements. It is recommended that the Raw Cotton Commission shall provide appropriate futures cover arrangements for those spinners who do their own buying, and for the merchants who serve them. The Report also recommends the setting up of a Panel to advise on the administration of the scheme.
Her Majesty's Government accept the recommendations in the Report. Arrangements are being made to put them into effect as soon as possible, so that they may operate during the forthcoming buying season.
3.47 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Jowitt, who is to-day absent on legal business, I should like to thank the noble Viscount for the Statement he has just made to the House. I do not wish to comment in detail upon the Statement, but there are two points that I feel I should raise. The first is that we are glad to know that the Report is unanimous. That, of course, will influence any views we may hold upon this matter. We have sufficient faith in the common sense of the Lancashire cotton workers to realise that they would not consent if they felt that consent would be wrong. The second point has reference to the last paragraph of the Statement, where it says:
"Arrangements are being made to put them"—

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that is, the recommendations—
"into effect as soon as possible, so that they may operate during the forthcoming buying season."
I wonder whether the noble Viscount could explain to us what the steps are. Will the recommendations of the Report be put into operation by Order in Council, or by Special Order; or can they be put into operation without reference to Parliament at all? I do not wish to say anything beyond that at present, but, as the noble Viscount will realise, if later on we feel we should like to discuss this matter, we shall be glad if a date can be arranged.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord. I should like to echo what he has said as to how highly satisfactory it is that this Report is unanimous. I think it is a remarkable achievement, Every single section of the cotton industry was represented—spinners, weavers, doublers, converters, manufacturers, the unions concerned in the different sections of the trade, the Liverpool Cotton Association, the Manchester Cotton Association, the Cotton Commission, and the Cotton Board—and they produced a Report containing a number of extremely practical recommendations which is absolutely unanimous on every point. I also agree with the noble Lord that we could not have had a more practical set of men to look after their own individual and collective interests. I am sure that we all wish the scheme success. With regard to the power to put it into force, I am advised that that power exists already under the Act. I understand that it can be done by mere administrative action by the President of the Board of Trade and myself. Therefore there is no question of making an Order in Council, which has to be laid. It was because the President of the Board of Trade and I could proceed by executive action that I felt it desirable, not only to lay the Report, but to make this full Statement to the House.
All that is really required is the setting up of a small committee to work the recommendations. That committee is being set up, and it will have an official chairman. To be effective, it needs to be a small but thoroughly representative committee. The advisory committee, and
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the body to administer the plan, will be set up. I must do it at once, because the buying season for all the main types of cotton opens in June, and the whole scheme must be in operation so that merchants who want to opt out can do so. We have the Report well in hand, and have kept in touch with all those connected with it and with the interests in Lancashire. There ought not to be any delay, and I believe we shall get it working all right. I should like to add that I have the assurance of the Chairman of the Cotton Commission—who, with his practical knowledge, made a great contribution on the Committee—that the fullest help will be given by the Cotton Commission in the way recommended in the Report.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I presume that if we do want to discuss the matter further there will be no objection.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Most certainly not. If the noble Lord cares to put down a Motion, or a Question, I shall be delighted to give him any information. I have given all the information I can give at the moment, and, in any event, the noble Lord would probably like some little time to study the Report. If there are any points that occur to him then which he would like to be cleared up, I shall be delighted to deal with them in any way he desires.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am a little puzzled. The noble Viscount says that he can proceed by administrative action. The Cotton (Centralised Buying) Act, 1947, set up the Commission as a monopoly. Can the noble Viscount give us an assurance that administrative action is quite lawful, when it appears to be contrary to the Cotton (Centralised Buying) Act, 1947?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: As a matter of fact, it is not. I have not the Act with me, and I am not going to pronounce legal judgment. However, I am told by my legal advisers that this is quite right. If the noble Lord looks at the Act he will see that even his own Government had the foresight to insert provisions that this should not be an unrestricted monopoly, but that a wise measure of competition, licence and so on, should be introduced. The noble Lord will see that not only does it include arrangements by which

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people can buy outside the Commission—that ceases to make it an exclusive monopoly—but also envisages the possibility of finding cover. I believe that is in Section 10 of the Act, and if the noble Lord looks at that section he will find that all this has been provided for. I believe I am quite right in saying that.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL
3.50 p.m.
House again in Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Before the House resumed the Question before the Committee was that Clause 3 stand part.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I should be less than grateful if I did not thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his remarks, although he left a great many obscurities in my mind. I should like to ask the Lord Chancellor this. Section 189 of the Army Act lays upon the General Officer Commanding the necessity to proclaim in General Orders the state of active service. Does that apply to subsection (3) or does subsection (3) make an independent definition of "active service"?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should not care to give an authoritative opinion upon so short a scrutiny. It appears to be a continuation of the period, and no more. Under subsection (2) the General Officer Commanding may make a declaration or publication in General Orders, and by subsection (3) he can continue it for a further period. That is how the matter appears to me, but it is a very serious question and I should like to look at it more closely.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: He cannot continue something which does not exist. My point was: What brings the state of active service into existence? Is it a declaration in General Orders, or some definition in subsection (3) of the new Act? That was my point.
On Question, Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Amendment of definition of "enemy"]:
On Question, Whether Clause 4 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD OGMORE: The query I had on Clause 4 has already been answered by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, in his reply on Clause 3. I think we can describe it colloquially as being necessitated by the queer times in which we live—a cold war; neither a hot war nor peace—and I think it is a very wise precaution.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I have had the advantage of consulting a legal adviser on this point, by whose views I am not necessarily bound. What is the reason for altering the definition of the word "pirates"? The amendment refers to
"… all persons engaged in armed operations against any of Her Majesty's Forces."
I may be quite wrong, but would these words affect soldiers called out on the reading of the Riot Act? Would they be engaged with "persons engaged in armed operations"? The words may apply to something like the Malayan rebels.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It certainly would apply to the Malayan rebels. The words are clear:
"… and all persons engaged in armed operations against any of Her Majesty's Forces "
wherever they may be. Again, there is no doubt room for saying that there may be borderline cases. It is impossible to be absolutely precise and to cover every case, but I think a common-sense application of the law would cover it. I doubt whether there would be any real difficulty in determining whether persons were "engaged in armed operations." I cannot make the matter more clear.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: One bows with real sincerity to great authority, but the question in my mind is this—as I say, it is a lay question. The Riot Act is read and the troops are brought out. One of the rioters has a revolver. In quelling that riot, are the troops on active service and liable to the disciplinary punishments which prevail when people are on active service?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is so difficult to cover every case. I doubt whether one man with a revolver would be a person "engaged in armed operations." On the other hand, the present Act, as I think I read, does include armed mutineers, armed rebels, armed rioters and pirates.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Then it seems unnecessary to add further words.
On Question, Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Substitution of references to the Queen]:
On Question, Whether Clause 6 shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I should like to ask the Lord Chancellor this question, because one requires a literary expert and someone with a knowledge of statutory law. I see these interesting words:
"… alterations of pronouns as are, in consequence of the substitutions effected by the foregoing provisions of this section, required by the rules of grammar."
To what Statute do we turn for a definition of the rules of grammar? It is a lighter part, but our Acts of Parliament might as well be literature, so far as possible.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will leave that one to the Secretary of State!
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I do not know whether I shall enlighten the noble Viscount a great deal on this matter. I cannot help, except to say that it is also a matter of common sense in our ordinary scholastic training.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: With respect, I think the common-sense argument is wearing a bit thin. After all, the Lord Chancellor is head of the law. Could he tell us whether there are any Statutes which he has read which include these words? It is rather a matter of research. It may be just a little jewel of its kind.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sorry, I cannot.
On Question, Clause 6 agreed to.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE had given notice of an Amendment, after Clause 6 to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of Section 4 of Army Act and Air Force Act
". In section four of the Army Act and of the Air Force Act (which specifies offences in relation to the enemy punishable by death) the words 'on active service and in war' shall be inserted between the words 'who' and 'commits'."
The noble Viscount said: I need not pursue this Amendment, which was put down to soften the penalties because of
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the new definition of "active service." Inasmuch as the question of active service has been fully dealt with by the Lord Chancellor, I will not move the Amendment
3.58 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE moved, after Clause 6 to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of Section 9 of Army Act and Air Force Act
". In subsection (1) of section nine of the Army Act and of the Air Force Act the words and it shall be re defence that such lawful command was contrary to or inconsistent with international law' shall be inserted after the words 'or otherwise'."
The noble Viscount said: This is one of the issues to which the Committee might well devote a good deal of attention. Here again, I am a layman trying to expound a view which interests the public and which very much affects the position of all people serving in the Forces. For the purpose of saving the time of the Committee, we might take this Amendment and my Amendment No. 7 together. I should like to know from the Lord Chancellor whether he can give us a clarification on this point. Suppose that a soldier serving in a war does some act, under the orders of his superior officer, which is in fact a breach either of an international convention or one of the usages of war. Supposing that he becomes a prisoner and is brought before a War Crimes Court by the enemy, what is his position under this Bill? Can he say in his defence, "I did this because I was ordered to do so by my superior officer," or could he say to his officer, on receiving the order, "I will not do that because it is in breach of international law"?
This is a point which has troubled a great many people. I do not at all share the view of the critics of the Nuremberg Trials, but there are many people, including many noble Lords in this House, who have constantly criticised the trials of officers and others by the War Crimes Commissions, on the ground that these officers were carrying out their military duty. On the other hand, it has been said that, whatever the military rules may be, the international rules are merely trying to build up a body of international morality. That is the reason why we have a court for trying war criminals. The matter is clearly stated in the Army

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Act, and that is why I put down this Amendment. I hope that the Lord Chancellor will take a wide view of this matter. I should be very grateful if he would clarify the point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 6, insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Stansgate.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This again is a very large question which the noble Viscount has raised. It is, as he said, a question which has been raised on more than one occasion, and fairly lately, in this House. In particular, it was raised in July, 1950. On that occasion my predecessor, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Jowitt (as he then was), dealt at very considerable length with this subject. He concluded his speech with these words, which I venture to cite (OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 168, Cols. 453–4):
"I apologise if I have wearied your Lordships by these citations, but I think it is absolutely necessary to get this question clear. I assert that it is a principle both of British law and of international law that to have acted on superior orders is no defence for some act that is obviously improper and would shock the conscience of a decent man. If I am asked whether I would take any part in seeking to amend that law, I should certainly say 'No.' I believe that if you alter that principle you will be striking a blow at the observance of the rule of law in this country. I believe that you would be doing a very serious thing to the soldier and the officer in time of war. Therefore, I find myself regretfully compelled to state my complete and fundamental disagreement with the proposition which the noble and gallant Earl has introduced."
I cannot improve upon those words. They exactly express my opinion and the opinion of Her Majesty's Government. I think that the Amendment which the noble Viscount has proposed is completely otiose, and I must resist it.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: I wish to say a word on this Amendment, and to support it with all the strength I can. Unless some words such as these are inserted, you will not allay the discontent which is now felt in the Services about this matter. I am not concerned about pundits sitting in Whitehall, or about the Law Officers. I am concerned about the rank and file of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force who are now serving. You must give them some protection of this sort. Some of these men are taken prisoner. They may plead that
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they are obeying orders in carrying out certain acts. But you deliver them into the hands of their enemy. They have only to be brought before three enemy officers—say three North Korean officers—and before that court they are bound by strict laws and conventions and can be sentenced to death. There is no defence of reprisal, such as you have in most other cases, because you yourselves have set the example. It is true that the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt—whom I am glad to see back in his place, because I wish to speak out on this matter—used the words which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has quoted. But the cases cited were not active service cases.
We have just been hearing a lot about active service, and when a man is on active service is now to be properly defined. On the last occasion when this matter was debated in your Lordships' House, the case was put forward of a sailor shooting a man in a boat. It is possible for a man to be arraigned before a court because he formed one of a battery of artillery which was firing on a town. He could not possibly have known what would be the result of his orders. Yet he could be murdered for his part, and we have no power to protect him. I hold that it is absolutely unjust to say that what he did was obviously contrary to the law of nations, for it cannot be obvious to the officer or the man who is carrying out the orders.
It is no answer to say that no British officer would give such orders. I have lived my life with British officers, and nobody could have a higher respect for them than I have. But there are always black sheep, and it is quite possible for any British officer to forget himself for a moment and give such orders. A distinguished member of your Lordships' House told me only the other day of a case in his own knowledge. It happened when he was in South Africa. A group of Boers were holding up their hands in surrender and British cavalrymen were ordered to charge and cut them down—which they did. This attitude that we are "not as other men are" carries us nowhere.
Every officer and every man ought to be protected by some such words as the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, suggests. Let us be realistic about this: if we are going to say that everyone is equal, then

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we must admit that everyone else's courts martial are equal to ours. We ought by every means to protect, so far as we can, our sons and grandsons, and all the fine young men who are taking their part in the defence of their country and who have to go to war. Let us give them all the protection we can. Lord Wright has said that these laws were the result of conventions and councils and conferences and the rest—and what did we get? We had twenty years of these conferences and pacts between the wars, from 1919 to 1939, and then we had six years of the bloodiest war that has ever happened. The chapter in the Manual of Military Law on the Laws and Usages of War purports to lay down for the benefit of the Services their responsibilities in the event of war. But that chapter is now being re-written by the very men who in the first place produced this extraordinary order which capsized the usages of war which had been laid down in 1914. America, Great Britain and the Dominions, Turkey, Germany, France, Belgium and Holland all had in their Manuals clauses which agreed with our views. Then some private lawyer told us—at the moment when it suited those who were going to try prisoners—that we were wrong, and that obedience to orders was no excuse or protection.
A clause of this sort is a handicap to officers. Many young officers will not like to give an order to their men, however necessary it may be, because they will be afraid that their men may suffer. After all, every officer is prepared to take full responsibility for the order he gives. He is anxious that neither his men nor his junior officers should suffer. Therefore, I do beg that my somewhat rambling remarks may be taken as a support of this Amendment. I know that these views are held by a great number of officers who have, not been consulted about the amendment. When that amendment was made to the Article which gives some protection to our officers and men, I know that military and naval officers in two Ministries were not consulted at all—when I say "military," I include the Air Ministry with the War Office. They were not consulted. I can only sit down and say: let us not be too strict about the law: let us think first of our young men, and then of the law.
LORD SALTOUN: Whenever this question of the duty of a British officer to exercise his private judgment on orders he has received comes up for discussion in your Lordships' House, I cannot help reflecting that, in the only case in which I heard of a British officer exercising that private judgment, he was tried by court-martial and broken.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: The point which has been raised by the noble and gallant Earl is well known to this House. We have discussed it many times. It is highly controversial and there are many strong arguments both for and against the view which he has expressed. There-fore, there are two questions before us on this Amendment: the first is whether or not the Amendment is right; and the second (which I believe is the one to which we should address ourselves this afternoon) is whether or not this is the right time to deal wilt the matter. I feel most strongly that this is not the right time to deal with the matter. The noble and gallant Earl says that there is discontent in the Services over the present state of affairs. I must accept what he says in regard to the Royal Navy, but I am bound to say that I have never heard of any strong discontent felt by the Army. I do not believe the Army thinks that this is an urgent matter. If that is so, if we are to have a Select Committee, surely a point of the magnitude of this point should be dealt with by the Select Committee. If we are lucky enough to be represented on that Committee, we shall be able to take a hand. If we are not so lucky, we shall be at liberty to deal with the new Army Bill when it comes up on Committee stage, which will be the right moment to deal with a point of this sort. I hope that the matter may be left to the Select Committee and that it will be discussed there at the length which it deserves.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Apparently, the noble Viscount is in possession of some information which is not in possession of the House. Has he learnt that we are to be represented on the Select Committee?
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: The noble Viscount must have misheard me. What I said is this: if we are lucky enough to be represented on the Select Committee, we can discuss it. If we are not

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lucky enough to be represented on the Select Committee, the Bill will come up and we can discuss it in the ordinary way in this House. I can assure the noble Viscount that I am not in possession of information which other noble Lords have not got.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: "If we are not lucky enough" is not sufficiently dignified. I would prefer something different. I did not know that the noble and gallant Earl was going to speak on this. I know from the Order Paper that time and time again he has raised this matter, for Questions have been on the Order Paper. Why should it not be discussed now? We have the whole afternoon. There is plenty of time in this House. It is an argument which one can either accept or reject, but to say that this is not the right moment to discuss this point, I cannot understand. The noble Viscount says we can discuss it "when the Bill comes up." When is that going to be? The Bill will come back reshaped on the advice of the Select Committee of another place. Personally, if I had a choice, I would rather have a Select Committee of another place than a Select Committee only of this House, but since we do not have a voice on their Select Committee, I do not think the noble Viscount's argument that this is not the moment ought to bear great weight. If we can express what we feel, then we shall have an opportunity of coming to a decision.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that the noble and gallant Earl who has once more raised this question will not think me guilty of any discourtesy if I do not go back over the old ground. It is less than two years ago that the whole subject was amply discussed in this House. Many of us know and sympathise with the views expressed by the noble and gallant Earl, but I do not think I should be justified in going over the old ground again. Therefore, I must ask—
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: May I interrupt the noble and learned Lord for one minute? At the present time, this chapter is being rewritten, and so presumably it is being considered. If it is being considered, why not have set up a proper tribunal and produce a proper chapter, bringing it up to date, without all the obsolete information that
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is now in it? The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, dismisses me with a wave of the hand about discussion on this important point, but only two nights ago I was told by a General in one of our high Commands that it was scandalous.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sure that every point of view which the noble and gallant Earl has put forward will be considered by the Committee, whether it be a Joint Select Committee or a Select Committee of one House only. So far as this House is concerned, I venture to think that at a quite recent date we considered the matter so fully that I should not be justified in pressing my own views any more.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: We are getting on. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, thinks it is a matter for the future; the Lord Chancellor thinks it has been decided in the past. Why not look at it in the present? As regards the Select Committee, there is no evidence whatever that they will take the least notice of what is said here. A Select Committee of another place is not bound to take the least notice of, or to attach any weight to, any word which is spoken in this House.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
4.18 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE moved, after Clause 6, to insert the following new clause—
Amendment of s. 189 of Army Act and Air Force Act
". In the event of the Secretary of State granting any consent or receiving any report in accordance with the provisions of section one hundred and eighty-nine of the Army Act or section one hundred and eighty-nine of the Air Force Act, the Secretary of State shall notify Parliament at the first opportunity of such consent or report."
The noble Viscount said: The noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, was good enough to give us an explanation of what was and what was not active service. He expounded the amended clause in the Bill in conjunction with Section 189 of the Army Act. He also explained that Section 189 of the Army Act required the General Officer Commanding to declare in orders the fact that it was or was not a condition of active service at the time. All that this Amendment does is to ask that the Secretary of State to whom that declaration in orders

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has to be made should communicate it to the Houses of Parliament. It is a purely formal Amendment. I have no doubt there will be no objection to its being accepted.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 6 insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Stansgate.)
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I hate to disappoint the noble Viscount—I know he is of an optimistic nature and that he takes disappointment not perhaps as quietly as some—but I do not feel able to accept his Amendment. I see the force of it, but I must say that, at any rate, predecessors of mine in this office, and predecessors of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War have found that the present clause works sufficiently well and, I think, to the satisfaction of Parliament. I can think that there could be a situation in which it might be better to leave it as it is. I myself am content to rest on the examples of my predecessors in office. I am not, as I have said, disposed to accept the noble Viscount's Amendment.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I cannot think that that answer is satisfactory, for this reason: we are amending the Army Act by means of this Bill, and if there is any occasion to make an amendment, this is the occasion. It may be that my Amendment is complicated and obscures the position. I believe that the Lord Chancellor and my noble friend Lord Ogmore think differently. But what on earth can be the disadvantages of letting the declaration be made known formally to this House? I cannot understand the objection. However, I shall not press the Amendment. I desire the proceedings to continue. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Regulations
8.—(1) For section ninety-three of the Army Act (which empowers fie Army Council to make regulations for the purpose of enlistment and generally for carrying Part II of that Act into effect) there shall be substituted the following section:—
"93.—(1) The Army Council may make such regulations as appear to them to be necessary or expedient for the purposes of, or in connection with, the enlistment of recruits for the regular forces and generally for carrying this Part of this Act into effect, and in particular, but without prejudice to
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the generality of the foregoing words, for designating the persons who are authorised to enlist recruits for the regular forces, for prescribing the form of attestation paper to be used for the purpose of the attestation of recruits and for prescribing anything which by this Part of this Act is required or authorised to be prescribed.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE moved, in subsection (1) to add to subsection (1) of the proposed new Section 93:
"and all such regulations made under this section shall be laid before each House of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, and if within forty days after they have been so laid either House presents an Address to Her Majesty praying that such rules may be annulled, Her Majesty may thereupon by Order in Council annul the same, and the rule so annulled shall henceforth become void without prejudice to anything done thereunder in the meantime."
The noble Viscount said: This is another Amendment of the same kind, desiring merely that the regulations that are made under Clause 8 shall be laid before Parliament and subject to annulment by a Prayer. I do not think there can be any objection to that. It improves Parliamentary control over this matter. Now everybody is in the, Forces at some lime or another in his life, and I think it is reasonable that the two Houses of Parliament should have the power to examine regulations made by the Service Ministries and, if necessary, pray that they be annulled. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 24, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Stansgate.)
EARL FORTESCUE: This Amendment is directed to imposing a duty to lay regulations under Section 93 of the Army Act, subject to a Negative Resolution by both Houses. At first sight this may seem attractive as bringing these regulations within direct Parliamentary control, but the following considerations should be borne in mind First, it would be anomalous to take this group of regulations and single them out for such procedure. If all regulations under this Act and the Air Force Act were so treated, there might be an argument for so doing, but it should be remembered that a great many of these regulations go into matters of very great detail, such as the issue of part warn greatcoats to troops, Regulation 127, the Recruiting Regulations.
Secondly, the problem of delegated legislation was considered very fully and

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the solution embodied in the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, and the regulations made thereby. This was largely an agreed measure to meet a post-war problem, and although noble Lords are not, of course, bound by that Act or inhibited from making Amendments of importance, it is worth while noting that under that Act a great many of the Instruments produced or to be produced under the Army and Air Force Acts were excluded from falling within the ambit of the Act itself. Thus, advisedly, a very large number, in fact the majority, of Instruments created under the Army and Air Force Act, are not Statutory Instruments but are simply rules which fall to be publicised under the normal means chosen by the Army and Air Councils. For example, Recruiting Regulations made under the Army Act, Section 93, are issued in a small red booklet. No doubt members of the Committee who have been in the Army will know the A.C.I. system backwards; Queen's Regulations are published fairly often, and, if I remember rightly, we had great difficulty in keeping them up to date. These have the force of law, but practice has shown that this is not a case where Parliamentary time should be taken up with such small details. Therefore I hope that the noble Viscount will not press his Amendment.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving us the benefit of his powerful brief, but I cannot say that it has convinced me very much. The fact that I have got a little red book does not in the least solace me for losing my rights as a Member of Parliament. The fact is that there are many small matters arising under Statutory Rules and Orders which are brought to members of this House—questions concerning the price of cabbages, or shoelaces, and so on. Why we, who are interested in the Services, should not look at these regulations and apply our minds to them, I do not know. If they are good, they are good. If we think it is right to criticise them, then we should be able to pray against them. But there is one point which the noble Earl has overlooked. We shall send this Bill hack to another place and we shall lose all control. They are going to prepare a new Bill. The whole thing is under review.
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If only we can have the regulations brought to us, we shall at least have an opportunity of examining them critically. My case is complete. But the man in the office has plenty to do. He has probably got an "In" tray, and he thinks that this Amendment is objectionable. Therefore I do not want to press it.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I had not wished to intervene at this stage, but I find myself largely in sympathy with what the noble Viscount has said. I am not a lover of delegated legislation as such. I did what little I could (although I confess it was a little) when I was in opposition, to point out the dangers of a great deal of the legislation which was passed by the Labour Government. We thought that they made an excessive use of it. Therefore I hope that when this matter is considered, as it ought to be, we shall have the assistance of the long experience of the noble Viscount in helping us to put Parliament where, in many cases, it ought to be. However, I do not think that this is the right place to begin.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 12 agreed to.
4.28 p.m.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved, after Clause 12 to insert the following new clause:
Removal from Army Act of references to volunteers, &c.
". For the purpose of—

(a) removing from the Army Act references (whether express or implied) to the volunteers; and

(b) removing from that Act references (whether express or implied) to the militia and securing uniformity of language as respects references to the army reserve;

the sections of that Act specified in the first column of the Second Schedule to this Act shall have effect subject to the amendments respectively specified in relation thereto in the second column of that Schedule."
The noble Lord said: This is a formal Amendment to tidy up an omission on the part of another place. The Second Schedule was inserted, but the clause which governed it was not, and the Bill as it appears in this House is incomplete. I hope that I shall again have the agreement of the Committee in inserting this clause. It is purely a drafting and tidying up clause in order to complete the Bill.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12, insert the said new clause.—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
LORD OGMORE: I appreciate the need for this clause. Without it, the Schedule was, so to speak, hanging on a branch without a tree—or, like the Cheshire Cat, smiling without a body. But as it is a new clause, and as, presumably, no one has ever discussed it before, I should like to say a word or two about it. First, I am not sure whether it has been a good thing to remove the words "auxiliary forces" Under this Bill the term "auxiliary forces" is removed altogether, and it is proposed to substitute the words "Territorial Army." I should have thought that the Government would have more latitude if the words "auxiliary forces" were retained, a new definition being given. Already in peace time we have a Home Guard—at least, I thought they were going to start on Monday. At all events, we have some nucleus of the Home Guard. The Staff and some people of the rank of lieutenant-colonel have been appointed, because I know of more than one such individual. Equally, there may be other types of force which cannot at the moment be foreseen. In recent years we have had new creations, such as mine watchers, and all sorts of other people. Therefore, it seems to me that it will limit the power of the Government very much if they strike out the words "auxiliary forces" and put in the words "Territorial Army" It will restrict them in regard to forces of other types which in time to come may come into being.
I am sorry to say that the volunteer element in the Territorial Army, which is dealt with by this clause, is declining in strength. In the Secretary of State's Memorandum on the Estimates, he has admitted a decline in the strength of the volunteer element of the Territorial Army. During the Second Reading debate, I made certain suggestions. I am glad to note that I have since been reinforced with regard to suggestions I made about colour in the Territorial Army. It may well he found in time—I hope it will not, but it may be—that the present scheme of trying to combine a volunteer element with a compulsory element in one force will not work out, and the Government will have to provide
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two forces: one a purely voluntary force, such as we had in the old days, and one a force of National Service men who have done their duty and who come in to do three or four years in a part-time service. That, I think, is possible. It is not by any means proved that this method of combining the two types of services in one Territorial Army is going to be a success. We hope that it will, but the Government's own Paper shows that the voluntary element is steadily decreasing, and expresses concern about it. I put this forward only as an example of the need for elasticity in the definition of "auxiliary forces" and as illustrating the mistake the Government have made in eliminating the definition from Section 190 (12) of the Act. I hope that nothing I have said will be taken as suggesting that I do not wish the Territorial Army every possible success. I most certainly do. No one could be a greater believer in it or a greater well-wisher towards it than I. All I say is that we have to look at the possibilities, remote though they may be, and there are possibilities—at any rate. I think so—of the Government making a mistake in not providing for a situation which may perhaps arise in the future.
4.33 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: The noble Viscount. Lord Stansgate, has sent some pretty brisk and healthy hares scuttling around these Benches, but the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has just sent a much bigger one. I hope his suggestions will not be very gravely attended to. I bow to none—certainly not to Lord Ogmore—in my admiration for the volunteer spirit of the Territorial Army, in which both he and I served for many years as volunteers. He and I both deplore the fact that there is evidence that the voluntary spirit has been slowly dying away, but I think it would be deplorable if we were to incorporate in any Act concerning the Armed Forces a suggestion that the new arrangement is an experiment which we think possibly may not work and that, therefore, we have thought it necessary to have some alternative arrangement up our sleeve in case it does not. I think it will work, though I agree with the noble Lord that there is some difficulty about amalgamating the old volunteer with the new conscript Service man. But, as I say, I think it would be

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disastrous to leave some loophole in the Act which might suggest to the men corning into the Force that we have not sufficient confidence that it will weld itself into a coherent Force and so we need to have some provision whereby we can return to the old system and have a dual force—one part volunteer, and one part conscript. That would be a most deplorable situation.
LORD OGMORE: I once heard the late Miss Ellen Wilkinson say in another place that the most dangerous thing one could ever do in Parliament was to give an example. I think that that is true. Of course, I hope that the Territorial Army will be a success: indeed, I think it will. Naturally we should not have anything in the Bill which suggests that it will not be a success. I was putting forward only an example—I gave other examples, such as mine watchers and the Home Guard—to show that the Government may need more latitude than is provided by this restriction to the words "Territorial Army" and that it was a pity to strike out the words "auxiliary forces." That was my argument. I am sorry that Lord Mancroft, whose legal acumen and sparkling wit we all appreciate, rode off on my hare and turned it into an electric hare.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I do not know whether it should be a source of shame in this House to take an interest in legislative forms, but I spent an anxious holiday studying the Second Schedule. That poor Schedule stood out, for it has hitherto had nothing to support it in the Bill. It was like the Skylon or the Government's own reputation; it had no substantial basis whatever.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: With my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, I will certainly study carefully what the noble Lord has said. I do not want to start another argument as to whether the Home Guard are within the ambit of this clause. I understand that they are armed forces who are not members of the Army. but I am not going into legal definitions now. I will certainly look at this clause again, but at the moment I rather doubt whether the noble Lord really has a point of substance here. However, I should prefer to
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have the opportunity of considering the matter and, if necessary, of dealing with it at the next stage of the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE moved, after Clause 12, to insert the following new clause:
Punishment of officers
". An officer who commits any offence for which a soldier is liable to suffer imprisonment shall also be liable to suffer imprisonment, and the words if an officer, to be cashiered or to suffer such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned, and if a soldier,' shall he omitted from all sections in the Army Act, in which they occur"
The noble Viscount said: This, of course, should not be an Amendment to a Bill at all. It raises an issue of immense social significance. On the other hand, this is an Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill which is dealing with the discipline of the Services, and we contend—I certainly contend—that in a national Army in which all people join, whether as officer, recruit, or whatever it may be, it is out of date to have one type of discipline and of penalty for officers and one type of discipline and of penalty for other ranks—a much harsher type of discipline and penalty, it may be, for the men. Therefore, we have put down, boldly and thoughtfully, a form of words which would put both officer and man on the same basis. That is to say, if an officer commits an offence for which a soldier would be imprisoned, then he also would be liable to imprisonment. That is a deep and fundamental issue which ought to be thoroughly discussed. I do not think it is possible to discuss it now, but I commend it to the Government as representing the spirit and judgment of many of my friends on this side. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12, insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Stansgate.)
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: As the noble Viscount has said, this is perhaps not the occasion upon which to have an extended discussion on a matter which is obviously of fundamental importance. Therefore I do not intend to take it much further than he has done. I think I ought to start by expressing my disagreement with the thesis which the noble Viscount has advanced.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: That is to say, you are against the Amendment.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: Yes, I am against the Amendment. I think it only fair to say that, although no doubt there are members of the noble Viscount's Party who agree about this matter, the Lewis Committee went into this question and reported upon it, in, I think, Paragraph 175 of the Report I think it would be convenient for your Lordships if I now quoted that paragraph. It reads:
"We wish to make it clear beyond doubt that nothing in modern Service developments leads us to think that a lower standard of conduct should be now accepted for officers than was accepted in the past. A moment's consideration of the officer's place as a leader in battle will dispose of any such idea. For this reason, if for no other, we have rejected a suggestion, made in evidence given before us, that punishments for officers and other ranks should be similar."
That recommendation, I think, was accepted by the late Government. I find myself in agreement with the late Government and with the Lewis Committee. If the noble Viscount presses the Amendment, I am afraid I shall he unable to accept it.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I do not intend, of course, to press the Amendment to a Division, but I should like it to be recorded that I supported it.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
4.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE moved, after Clause 12, to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of s. 177 of Army Act
". Section one hundred and seventy-seven of the Army Act shall be amended by the addition of the following proviso:
'Provided always that any law of any Colony which provides that a person to whom this section applies hall be flogged or attached to a fixed object as a punishment for any offence under military law shall be void and of no effect.'"
The noble Viscount said: Here again, we have come to a question which is a fundamental one. This is a matter which makes me feel more and more that this House might usefully have devoted a week to the Committee stage of this Bill. I think I went too far in some words that. I used on the occasion when this Bill came before the House. I said that if I were in command of a company, I
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could order a white man to accept certain punishment and I could order a coloured man to accept flogging, or field punishment No. 1. That would not be so in one unit, but if I commanded a group of forces, and one of them were a coloured force from a British possession, the discipline of the British force would be covered by this rule—that is to say, field punishment No. 1 could not be inflicted—while under Section 177 of the Army Act, the Colonial non-European force serving overseas would be subject to the law of the Colony, and in many of these Colonies the law includes flogging, and also, I daresay, attachment to a fixed object.
The representatives of the late Government declared before the Trusteeship Council that we were doing our best in the Trustee Territories to get rid of corporal punishment, and I remember that my noble friend Lord Ogmore and I said the same thing when we raised the question of whipping in Hong Kong. I had hoped that the noble Earl, Lord Munster, representing the Colonial Office, would be here to-day to tell us what is the practice in relation to these Colonial troops. It seems to me that when we are trying to unify various forces in the European Defence Community and in other united bodies, it is most undesirable to have two types of discipline. Suppose that Pakistan or Ceylon decided to assist us in the field, as Australia and New Zealand have frequently done. If these Pakistani or Cingalese troops observed Colonial troops suffering corporal punishment when white troops did not, that in itself would be very bad for discipline. Moreover, I think it is wrong. I am strongly opposed to corporal punishment and I think an Amendment of this kind, which would make it impossible to impose corporal punishment, at any rate so long as Colonial troops were serving with others, is right. I therefore recommend it confidently to the favourable consideration of the Government: and noble Lords present.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12, insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Stansgate.)
LORD MANCROFT: Without in any way attaching myself to the arguments concerning corporal punishment, I should like the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, to clear up this point when he comes to

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reply. Is it correct Parliamentary procedure, or advisable, or even tactful, in a Bill such as this to state that any law of any Colony on a particular subject shall by this Bill be rendered "void and of no effect"? That seems to be a curious Parliamentary method which is not likely to endear us to Legislatures of the Colonies. It appears a little unusual.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I suppose I should leave it to the Lord Chancellor to answer that, but may I give my amateur opinion first? The fact that a Colony is a Colony means that its Legislature is subordinate to this Parliament, and it seems perfectly proper that we should legislate here and overrule, when necessary, the validity of their acts.
LORD OGMORE: Without going into the merits of the case, I take the greatest exception to the doctrine proposed by my noble friend Lord Stansgate. I consider that the less we in this Parliament interfere directly with Colonial legislation the better. This question came up very often when I was Minister. I found that those most anxious to give the Colonies self-government were often those most desirous of restricting their powers of legislation. I think nothing could be worse than for us here to lay down in a Bill, in advance, orders upon a Colonial Legislature. I hope that your Lordships will reject this Amendment.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I feel rather superfluous in coming to the Box. In the short time at my disposal I have made inquiries, but so far I have not been able to establish that any Colony has a code which includes this punishment. I do not say there are not any.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Hong Kong?
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: That may be so, but I cannot argue about it. I should not like it established that this is a general practice among the Colonies, and I can say that if there is such a case it is extremely exceptional. I think that what the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and my noble friend Lord Mancroft have just said is perfectly right, that it would be extremely bad if we inserted in a Bill of
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this kind the clause suggested by the noble Viscount. If it had to be considered, it ought to be considered as a Colonial matter, and not as an Army and Air Force matter. I think it is extremely improbable that circumstances would in fact arise where Colonial forces in active operations with forces of our own would be subject to different punishment in the field. I do not think we ought to accept the Amendment, for reasons advanced by both sides of the House, and I must ask the House to reject it.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I will ask permission to cry "Content" when the Amendment is put. I am sure that the noble Lords opposite are thoroughly enjoying the internecine conflict on this side. I understand the noble Lord giving moral support, liaison support, to my nigger-flogging colleague. I must say that my noble friend Lord Ogmore is rather alone, or at any rate in a small minority, in our Party in seeking to give everyone the right to flog his own nigger. That is exactly what he said—I am putting it in the vernacular. After all, a man suffering this punishment does not think of fine turns of phrase. Generally speaking, so far as our Party is concerned, I think this Amendment represents our view. Whether it is right to put it in the Army and Air Force (Annual) Act, I do not know, but I should have thought that matters of discipline for our forces were certainly a matter for this Bill, and therefore I continue my support for my own Amendment.
LORD OGMORE: I do not want to engage at any length in fisticuffs with my noble friend. I think the House would wish me to repudiate the idea that I or my Party, or anyone in Parliament, is not against corporal punishment. What I say is that, apart from the merits of the proposal, I regard it as quite wrong that Parliament here should lay down an order of this kind. This should be dealt with by the Colonial Legislatures. I am sure that is the proper democratic practice, and not the other.
On Question. Amendment negatived.
Clauses 13 to 18 agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule [Amendments of the Army Act for purpose of removal of references to volunteers, &c.]:
4.50 p.m.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: This is a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, lire 35, at end insert ("In subsection (5) for the words the auxiliary forces' there shall be substituted the words 'the territorial army'").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
LORD OGMORE: This reinforces the point I made previously, and I will not make it again. I would just ask the noble Lord to look at it, and perhaps he will give us his view on Third Reading.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.
On the Title:
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: The next Amendment is to meet a point to which the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, quite rightly drew our attention. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("daring twelve months") and insert ("until the end of the month of July, nineteen hundred and fifty-three").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.
On Question, Whether the Preamble shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I have raised a question of some difficulty once or twice during our debates, and the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Air has been good enough to give me a Written Answer. The point is this. An officer's name is put on the Retired List. What power exists in the Service Ministries to remove his name from the Retired List? For example, could his political opinions be used as a reason for removing it from the Retired List? The noble Lord the Secretary of State for Air was kind enough to reply to me citing the Regulation, in paragraph 3,549 of the Queen's Regulations to the Air Force, saying:
"This Regulation provides as follows: 'An Officer shall he liable to be removed from the Retired List for misconduct.'"
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That is a perfectly plain statement. But it is a serious thing for a man's name to be removed from the Retired List. I should like the noble Lord, or perhaps the Lord Chancellor, to tell me who defines "misconduct," and whether, if anyone is charged with misconduct, he has an opportunity to be heard, or to produce evidence. Or is it just that the Secretary of State has the right to take action autonomously, without hearing the person who is likely to suffer? If it is not convenient now, I will raise the question later. This is a question of real substance, because if you get the idea of political purges in the Services, and of people not being liked because of their general outlook, it is a serious matter. People in the Services ate accustomed to disregard political prejudices. I feel it is important that either now or at some time—perhaps some future time would he better—there should be a definition of the word "misconduct" under this Regulation which permits the Secretary of State to remove a man's name from the Retired List.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount has asked me a rather general question. I think: one must assume, whether it is the Air Council or the Army Council, who are armed with similar powers, who embark upon the question of whether an officer is to be removed from the Retired List for misconduct, that they will act in accordance with the ordinary principles of British and, I may say, natural justice, and will not do so without giving the person to be removed an opportunity of stating his case. I imagine that this is a general question, and I can answer it only in a quite general way. As to misconduct, it is obvious, again, that it is quite impossible to give a complete definition which will cover every case of misconduct. One must have regard to the subject matter, and to the person whose actions are being considered. For instance, something might be misconduct in a man holding Her Majesty's Commission which would not be misconduct in another man.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Would political opinion be misconduct?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I must be a little careful here, because I cannot help thinking that the noble Viscount has in his mind a particular case

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which might be a justiciable issue. It would be improper for me to express an opinion in this House on a matter which may have to be dealt with in the courts of law and, ultimately, in this House. I would rather not express an opinion which could be related in any way to a third person. However, I call well conceive that generally, although clearly it is not misconduct to hold a political opinion, it may well be misconduct if a man holding such political opinions expresses them in such a way and in such a place as to cause, I may say, something like sedition among Her Majesty's Forces.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: But under Section 35 of the Army Act a person using treasonable words can be brought to court-martial. And, of course, regulations can be made. I am speaking about an uncontrollable action of the Secretary of State himself.
THE LORD CHANCELLORI do not quite understand what the noble Viscount means by "an uncontrollable action of the Secretary of State himself". I am dealing for the moment with the question of what might amount to misconduct. The noble Viscount asked me whether the holding of political opinions could be misconduct, and I was saying that the holding of political opinions could not be misconduct, but that those opinions might be expressed in such a way, and in such a place, as to amount to misconduct. I would rather not say more because, as I have said, this appears to be a matter that may possibly go further.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I had not fully realised what the dangers were the other day when I asked the noble and learned Lord the question, and I shall not pursue the matter now. At the same time, I consider that Parliament should take into serious consideration anything that looks like penalising a retired officer because he holds this or that opinion—I
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do not care what opinion it may be—so long as he performs his duty in the ordinary way and does not do anything wrong. If he does wrong, then he can be brought to book by the Regulations, or he can be brought to trial by court-martial. But do not let us have this Eight of Spades type of thing, because I consider it is a dangerous thing to introduce into the Constitution.
On Question, Preamble agreed to.
House resumed.

HYDRO-ELECTRIC DEVELOPMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL
4.59 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
KINGSTON UPON HULL CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the Opposition to the Bill was withdrawn; the Orders made on 21st February last and the 1st instant discharged, and Bill committed.
BLACKPOOL CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

WINCHESTER CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at five o'clock.