Sitting of 25 July 1951

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  JAPAN

    Pre-war Empire
    Major Guy Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs which parts of the pre-war Japanese Empire have been ceded to or are now occupied by countries in the Russian sphere of influence under the Yalta and subsequent agreements with the British Government; and which parts still remain to be allocated among the signatories to the proposed Japanese peace treaties.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Davies): By the Yalta Agreement of 11th February. 1945, South Sakhalin and the Kurile Islands were to go to the Soviet Union. Those territories have, in fact, been occupied by the Russians since 1945, and Article 2 of the draft Treaty provides that Japan renounces her title to them. The draft Treaty does not provide for the allocation of any former Japanese possessions amongst its signatories.

    International Trade
    Mr. Arthur Colegateasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what international conventions or agreements affecting unfair competition in international trade including those dealing with the ownership of copyrights, trade marks, patents and designs to which
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    Japan adhered in 1939, it is now proposed in the draft Peace Treaty that Japan shall now be caused to adhere.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: Once the Japanese Peace Treaty comes into effect, all the multilateral and international agreements to which Japan was a party on 1st September, 1939, provided that they have not in the meantime lapsed for other reasons, will resume their force and effect for Japan. As the list of these agreements is rather lengthy, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Colegate: May I ask the hon. Gentleman to bear in mind the extreme importance of securing the adherence of Japan to the International Agreement for the Prevention of False Indications of the Origin of Goods? Japan refused to sign this agreement until the war, and it is essential that it should be in the Peace Treaty.
    Mr. Davies: Yes, I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to the matter.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the Minister also consult his right hon. Friend with a view to considering the advisability of consulting the President of the Board of Trade in order to get joint consideration of all these matters?
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Is the Minister aware that there are many instances today of pirated designs being made by Japan and sold throughout West Africa?
    Mr. Davies: That hardly arises out of the Question, but I suggest that the hon. Gentleman awaits the speech of my right hon. Friend this afternoon, which will touch on these matters.
    Following is the List:
    Japan: Conventions or Agreements affecting unfair competition in international trade

    1. Convention and Statute on Freedom of Transit signed at Barcelona on 20th April. 1921. TS. No. 27 (1923) Cmd. 1992.

    2. Protocol on Arbitration Clauses in Commercial and other Contracts signed at Geneva on 24th September, 1923. TS. 4 (1925) Cmd. 2312.

    3. Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works signed at Rome on 2nd June, 1928 (which amended the Berne Convention of 1886). TS. 12 (1932) Cmd. 4057.

    4. Convention and Protocol on Stamp Laws in connection with Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes signed at Geneva on 7th June, 1930. TS. No. 14 (1934) Cmd. 4594.

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    5. Convention and Protocol on Stamp Laws in connection with Cheques signed at Geneva on 19th March, 1931. TS. No. 26 (1933) Cmd. 4443.

    6. Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property signed at London on 2nd June, 1934 (which amended the Paris Convention of 1883). TS. No. 55 (1938) Cmd. 5833.

    Draft Peace Treaty
    Brigadier Smythasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for an estimate of when he expects the Japanese Peace Treaty will be finally ratified and signed.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: It is expected that the Treaty will be signed early in September. It will come into force when ratified by a majority of the principal parties, which must include the United States of America. This could occur within a few months from the date of signature.
    Brigadier Smyth: Can the Under-Secretary say whether it is the intention to have any Commonwealth conference on the draft Treaty before the Foreign Secretary has final discussions with the United States?
    Mr. Davies: The position is that the Commonwealth countries interested, as well as other countries concerned, have been invited to send their amendments in to Washington, where our representatives and those of other countries, presumably, who are sufficiently interested will be able to consider them, and the final draft will be agreed between the United States and the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Awbery: In view of the fact that Japan will be allowed to spend money on armaments under the Peace Treaty, will the Minister take steps to increase the compensation of those prisoners who suffered under Japanese hands from the £5 million? Is he aware that that £5 million will mean only £25 per prisoner, whilst the United States are granting their prisoners a dollar for each day they were in captivity? Will he take steps to improve the position?
    Mr. Davies: That is quite another question. It does not arise out of this Question.

  BRITISH AND U.S.A. JOURNALISTS (EXPULSIONS)
  Earl Wintertonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in view
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  of the number of recent cases of the expulsion of British and United States journalists from various countries, he will consult the United States Government with a view to concerting joint action of protest.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: During the present year there have been only two cases of the expulsion of British journalists from a foreign country. These occurred in Persia and applied to Mr. Haig Nicholson of Reuters and Mr. Sefton Delmer of the "Daily Express," against whom expulsion orders were executed on 3rd June, 1951.
  The House will appreciate that owing to the various measures of intimidation and obstruction practised by certain Communist Governments of Eastern Europe, it is now practically impossible for British newspapers and agencies to maintain correspondents in these countries.
  His Majesty's Government have been in consultation with the United States Government in appropriate cases and will continue so to consult as occasions arise.

  BALKAN COUNTRIES (ARMED FORCES)
  Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the latest estimates that he has received of the strength of the armed forces of Bulgaria, Roumania and Hungary, showing navy, army, air force, armed police, frontier guards and labour battalions in receipt of military training separately; how these figures compare with the maximum strengths laid down in the Peace Treaties; when he last drew the attention of the governments of these countries to the growing disparity between the permitted strengths and the actual strengths; and what reply was received to these protests.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Roumanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian Governments have not disclosed the size of their armed forces, and it is not in the public interest to give the detailed estimates we have made. There is no doubt that the three countries have violated the military clauses of the peace treaties, and I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table drawing certain general comparisons between the Treaty limits and our estimates.

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  His Majesty's Government have not drawn the attention of the three Governments to these breaches of the Treaties since their experience in connection with the human rights clauses of the treaties has shown that such action would have produced no useful result.
  Major Beamish: What action is being taken through the United Nations in attempting to control this grave and disquieting situation?
  Mr. Davies: At the present time, so far as I am aware, no action has been taken in regard to this question of the breach of the Treaty's military clauses. As the hon. and gallant Member is aware, action was taken concerning human rights.
  Following is the table:

  COUNTRY

  REGULAR ARMED FORGES

  PARA-MILITARY FORCES (not permitted by the Treaty). Estimated to be at least:

  Peace Treaty limits to:

  Estimated to be at least:

  Hungary

  70,000

  100,000

  150,000

  Roumania

  138,000

  240,000

  Bulgaria

  65,500

  150,000

  SPAIN (NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY)
  Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the major points of difference between His Majesty's Government and the United States Government regarding the establishment of closer association between Spain and the members of the North Atlantic Pact; what reasons His Majesty's Government has most recently advanced to support their views on this matter; and if he will now take urgent steps to seek a common policy with the United States and other members of the North Atlantic Pact.
  Mr. Carmichaelasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the nature of the representation made to His Majesty's Government to include Spain in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation; and what reply His Majesty's Government have made to this representation.
  Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what the policy of His Majesty's Government is in regard to participation of Spain in the defence of Western Europe.
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the nature of the British representations to the United States Government regarding the proposed inclusion of Spain in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
  Mr. Nigel Fisherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement in regard to the Government's policy towards the inclusion of Spain in negotiations for the defence of Western Europe.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: I would refer hon. Members to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State on 23rd July. The policy of His Majesty's Government remains as stated by myself on 20th February.
  It is the view of His Majesty's Government that the strategic advantages of establishing any closer association between Spain and the West are outweighed by the effects which such an association would have on the morale of the other members of the Western community. These views have been made known to the United States Government who, however, take the contrary view. There is no question at present of Spain's admission to the North Atlantic Treaty.
  Mrs. Castle: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the negotiations at present going on between the United States and Spain for bilateral arrangements for the lease of military bases in Spain is contrary to the North Atlantic Treaty—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—contrary to the spirit of the North Atlantic Treaty? While I appreciate the reply which my hon. Friend has already given, will he give an assurance that he will press this very strongly upon the American Government?
  Mr. Davies: As my hon. Friend is aware, and as has been stated here, we have explained our view fully to the United States Government. Their present objective is to conclude a bilateral arrangement to secure facilities in ports and airfields for the defence of the West, but they are not pressing for the inclusion of Spain in the North Atlantic Treaty.
  Mr. Fisher: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that in these dangerous times the strategic considerations should really take precedence over the political considerations? Would it not be more statesmanlike to create a new defensive association than to perpetuate an old ideological feud?
  Mr. Davies: This is not a political question. It is a question as to which is the best way of defending the West at the present time. We have taken our view because of the bad effect on morale of bringing Spain in, and because we do not consider that strategically there would be advantages in bringing Spain in, certainly not until the west itself is fully armed.
  Mr. Michael Foot: Is it not a fact that almost all the other countries in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation take the same view as the British Government on this subject? In the course of the British Government's representations to the United States Government, have we suggested that this matter should be discussed in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and that a majority vote should be taken there instead of United States acting unilaterally in offence against the other Powers with which she is associated in the alliance?
  Mr. Davies: I could not agree that the United States has not the right to enter into discussions with Spain if she so wishes. Clearly, if there was a question of Spain coming into the North Atlantic Treaty it would have to be discussed and agreed to by all the members, but I do not see any justification for bringing it before the Atlantic Council at this stage in the present circumstances.
  Major Beamish: If, as the hon. Gentleman has said, at the moment he sees no strategic advantages in a closer military understanding with Spain, is it not a fact that that view is wholly contrary to the view of the Chiefs of Staff in this country and America?
  Mr. Davies: I cannot express the views of either Chiefs of Staff in the United States or the Chiefs of Staff in this country.
  Major Beamish: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that they can express them and have done so?
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: Will my hon. Friend explain why he thinks that it would have a worse effect on British morale for America to have a treaty with Spain than for Britain to participate in German rearmament?
  Brigadier Head: Does not the Under-Secretary think that if the views expressed by the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) and others were accepted and present precautions in order to prepare anti-submarine facilities in Spain in the event of war were now neglected, it would mean that this country would starve in the event of war breaking out?
  Mr. Davies: I cannot accept that assumption.
  Brigadier Head: It is a fact.
  Mr. Sorensen: Does my hon. Friend accept the suggestion of an hon. Member opposite that the aversion on the part of many of us in this country to the tyrannous régime in Spain is due to an ideological dispute or feud?
  Mr. Gammans: Will the Minister explain, for the enlightenment of our allies, why it is good for morale to help a Communist dictatorship in Yugoslavia and to refuse to have anything to do with a non-Communist dictatorship in Spain?
  Mr. Davies: Because there is a very considerable difference between the Communist Government in Yugoslavia and the Franco Government in Spain. The Communist Government in Yugoslavia under Marshal Tito was an ally of ours during the war, which Franco was not.
  Mr. Speaker: This is becoming a debate. We cannot carry it on any longer.
  Mr. Donnelly: On a point of order. I had down one of the Questions to which my hon. Friend has just replied. I understand that it is a tradition of the House that if one has down a Question which is answered one is entitled to put a supplementary question.
  Mr. Speaker: I did not realise that Question No. 14 was among those answered. I shall allow the hon. Member to ask a supplementary question.
  Mr. Donnelly: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the whole point about General Franco's régime is not that it is just an obnoxious régime, but that it represents the first military conquest of the Rome-Berlin Axis and that it is there

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  solely because of the efforts of Italian troops and German aircraft and munitions before the war?

  POLAND (BRITISH CLAIM)
  Mr. Wakefieldasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply has been received from the Polish Government to the protest made on 24th May by His Majesty's Ambassador regarding the failure of that government to pay the sum of £400,000 due on 31st March.
  Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Polish Government are still in default in the payment of £400,000 due on 31st March, 1951.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Polish Government are still in default on the payment in question. A Polish reply of 13th June to His Majesty's Ambassador's protest of 24th May contained no undertaking about the initial payment of £400,000 due on 31st March, but charged His Majesty's Government with seeking to hold the Polish Government to the strict terms of the Trade and Financial Agreement, while themselves failing to observe their obligations under the Agreement.
  His Majesty's Ambassador was at the same time informed orally that the Polish Government were considering the matter of the quarterly payments of the various percentages laid down under Article 17 (a) of the Agreement. The first of these payments, amounting to £244,329, was due on 30th June and has not yet been received.
  Mr. Wakefield: Will the hon. Gentleman bring this breach of faith by the Polish Government to the notice of those of his hon. Friends who complain so bitterly about the action of His Majesty's Government in requisitioning the two tankers recently built in Britain for the Polish Government?
  Mr. Davies: The two have no connection whatsoever. This is a financial default on the part of the Polish Government.

  KOREA (REHABILITATION)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if His Majesty's Government will now give the assurance
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  that on the cessation of hostilities in Korea he will be willing to assist in the social and economic rehabilitation of Korea at least equivalent in cost to the British expenditure on the Korean campaign during the past six months; and that it will recommend the same policy to the other members of the United Nations.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: His Majesty's Government have agreed to contribute up to £10 million to the United Nations Korean Reconstruction Agency for the relief and rehabilitation of Korea. This sum is approximately the same as the direct expenditure incurred by the United Kingdom in respect of the war in Korea during the first year of operations. I doubt, however, if it is appropriate, or indeed necessarily in the best interests of the Korean people, to base- contributions on the amounts expended in support of the resistance to aggression in Korea. Contributions should rather be related to the dimension of the task in Korea and to the ability of each country to contribute.
  Mr. Sorensen: While I appreciate that reply, may I ask my hon. Friend if he in turn appreciates that such a suggestion as is embodied in the Question might have a tremendous psychological and moral effect in view of the very great devastation of that country?
  Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. We have taken note of the suggestion, but His Majesty's Government are as sympathetic as my hon. Friend about the position of refugees in Korea, and we are trying to do what we consider to be in their best interests.
  Major Lloyd: Will the hon. Gentleman assure the House that any sympathetic consideration to the cost of rehabilitation of Korea will apply only to South Korea?
  Mr. Davies: No, Sir.
  Hon. Members: Why not?

  PACIFIC DEFENCE PACT
  Mr. Henry Hopkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will endeavour to arrange for the Pacific Defence Pact to be concluded between Australia and New Zealand and the United States of

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  America, to be open to accession by the United Kingdom in respect of Hong Kong and Malaya.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: No, Sir. As was stated in the House on 19th and 25th April, this Pact is of limited application. It is hoped that it will prove possible to make further security arrangements covering the general area of South-East Asia, but so far we have not found this to he practicable.
  Mr. Hopkinson: Did not the Foreign Secretary say on 19th April that it would not have been unwelcome to us to participate, and is it not a fact that the Pact has not been finally concluded or the final terms agreed upon? Would he not see whether it is not possible to arrange for British participation?
  Mr. Davies: The text of the Pact has recently been published and it has been initialled, but it is not practicable for this Pact to be extended at the present time; one reason being that the other countries concerned are not ready so to extend it.
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: Does not the hon. Gentleman think it is unfortunate that a pact of this importance should be entered into by two members of the Commonwealth without the adhesion of the Mother Country?
  Mr. Davies: As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, we have full understanding and relationship with the Commonwealth countries as regards deferce in the Pacific.
  Commander Noble: Does the answer of the Minister mean that Hong Kong and Malaya are not covered by this Pact in any way?
  Mr. Davies: As I have said, we have close relationship with the Commonwealth, and Australia is assisting us in the air in Malaya.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that if unilateral pacts of this sort are made it will be extremely difficult later on to make a comprehensive defence arrangement for the whole of the Pacific area, and therefore that every side of the arrangements should have the adhesion of all those who will later participate in the Pacific Pact?
  Mr. Davies: My right hon. Friend has made it quite clear to the House that we
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  favour ultimately an extension of the Pact, or some similar pact including the whole of South-East Asia and the Pacific area, and we hope that some such pact will be possible. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not take the initiative?"] We do not consider it practicable at the present time.
  Mr. Follick: Will the Under-Secretary kindly inform me and the House about the Archipelago of Fiji, which is one of the most important strategic points in all that area, especially with regard to Australia and New Zealand. In the Pacific Pact—
  Hon. Members: Speech.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: It is a maiden speech!
  Mr. Follick: Is the Minister aware of the great number of British Colonies in that area, and will he insist that all these British interests, apart from the Commonwealth position, are protected?
  Mr. Davies: I can certainly give my hon. Friend the assurance that these very important islands will not be overlooked.

  ITALIAN PEACE TREATY (REVISION)
  Mr. Hopkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the absence from the draft Japanese Peace Treaty of any restrictions on Japanese re-armament, he will initiate negotiations with a view to the deletion of the military clauses of the Italian Peace Treaty.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make as to the proposals for revision of the Italian Peace Treaty recently forwarded to him by that Government.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Italian Government have recently drawn the attention of His Majesty's Government and the United States and French governments to their wish for revision of the Italian Peace Treaty. The position is now under urgent consideration. Consultation with other governments is, of course, necessary.
  Mr. Hopkinson: Having regard to the fact that the Italians fought on our side loyally and well for the last two years of the war, and that they are now an ally of

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  ours in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, can we count on the full support of His Majesty's Government for this proposal?
  Mr. Davies: As I said, the matter is under consideration in consultation with the United States and the French governments at the present time. It should not be overlooked, however, that any formal revision of the Treaty would require the agreement of all the signatories, including the U.S.S.R.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view, in particular, of the answer of the hon. Gentleman today to Question No. 5, can he give an assurance that the abolition of the military clauses of the Italian Treaty is regarded by His Majesty's Government as a matter of considerable urgency?
  Mr. Davies: As I said, these matters are being considered in consultation. I cannot say more than that.

  GERMANY (WESTERN DEFENCE)
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action His Majesty's Government is taking regarding the proposal that Western Germany should make a contribution to a European army.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The interim report of the Conference on a European Army, to which it has been proposed that Western Germany should make a contribution, has been received today, and it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to study it together with the High Commissioners' report on the exploratory discussions in Bonn.
  Mr. Donnelly: Can my hon. Friend say whether the four conditions laid down by the Prime Minister at the beginning of the year still remain the policy of His Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. The policy of His Majesty's Government is as was stated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his speech in February.

  RUSSIAN PUBLICATION, "NEWS"
  Major Vernonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the appearance in Moscow of a new publication called "News," published in English and
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  having for its object the closer understanding between the peoples of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Anglo-Saxon world; and whether he will instruct our ambassador to obtain copies and if he will place them in the Library.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Yes, Sir. As regards the second part of the Question, I understand that the new publication will shortly be on sale in this country through ordinary commercial channels; but I have arranged for copies of the first number to be placed in the Library.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Would not the object referred to in the third line of the Question be better served if this paper were published in Russian?
  Mr. Awbery: Will the Minister take steps to publish in this country in the Russian language a paper called "News" which has for its object the same object as the "News" that is published in Moscow, namely, friendship between Russia and this country?
  Sir Herbert Williams: Could I ask whether this paper will be published at the Stationery Office under the condition that nobody may cut the price?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that a well-known commentator, who is an anti-Communist, Mr. A. J. Cummings of the "News Chronicle," has welcomed "News" as showing signs of a new mood in Russia, and should not we welcome it also?
  Mr. Davies: It would be a grave mistake for anybody to jump to conclusions on the first issue of this paper.
  Air Commodore Harvey: How many copies of this publication are being, or have been, printed?
  Mr. Davies: I am not responsible for that.
  Mr. Sorensen: May I ask my hon. Friend whether he will secure some reciprocal arrangement by which newspapers published here can also be sold in Moscow?

  MIDDLE EAST (DEFINITION)
  Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what countries are included in the term, the "Near East," as used in official terminology.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The term "Near East," which was connected with the Ottoman Empire, is outmoded in this country and "Middle East" has now superseded it for official purposes. The countries included in the term "Middle East" are Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Persia, Syria, the Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Trucial Sheikhdoms, Kuweit, Bahrein, Qatar, Muscat, the Aden Protectorate and the Yemen.
  Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett: Can the hon. Gentleman say that there is nothing eastern that is, any nearer than the Middle East now?
  Major Legge-Bourke: May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he will say where Greece comes in now, because Greece always used to be in the Near East.
  Mr. Follick: It is in the Levant.
  Mr. Davies: Greece is considered to be in the Mediterranean orbit.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Could my hon. Friend say whether the Near East has gone west?
  Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the. Levant still has any official existence?
  Mr. Davies: No, Sir.
  Mr. Wakefield: Can the Minister say why he does not include in his definition the Sheikhdoms of Khor al Fakhan and Kalba and others in that vicinity?
  Mr. Davies: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question.

  BRITISH PASSPORTS (WITHDRAWAL)
  Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action has been taken to impound the passports of Dr. E. H. S. Burhop and an unnamed Foreign Office official; and what were the reasons for, and what is the effect of, such action.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The two cases to which the hon. Member refers are quite separate. Dr. Burhop's passport has not been impounded. He was, however, informed on 19th July that the passport had been cancelled, and he was requested to surrender it to the Passport Office. This action was taken because Dr. Burhop
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  had accepted an invitation to go to Moscow and intended to leave on 21st July. It was considered that this journey would not be in the national interest at the present time.
  The Foreign Office official concerned surrendered his passport on 18th July. The Home Office were, however, asked to instruct the immigration authorities to inform the Foreign Office if this official should attempt to leave the country. This action was taken as a precautionary measure in connection with certain inquiries which are taking place.
  The effect of impounding a passport is to deprive the former holder of the normal facilities for travelling to foreign countries.
  Mr. Blackburn: In view of the very serious nature of the statement that has now been made, would the Minister ensure that at the earliest possible moment British subjects are made aware of the precedents for action being taken to impound passports and to take away from a British subject his normal right to go wherever he likes throughout the world? Secondly, as one who knows Dr. Burhop, may I ask whether he will have any opportunity to clear his name against a stigma which has been made on some official file, and will he be given any opportunity to appeal to some court of justice in order that this stigma may be taken from him?
  Mr. Davies: As regards the first part of that question, I think it would be very regrettable if, arising out of a few cases such as this, it was decided to put obstacles in the way of British subjects travelling wherever they wish. As regards the second part of the question, I should like notice of that.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Does my hon. Friend consider that in the long run any useful public purpose is served by detaining in this country persons who may wish for their own reasons to go away and live somewhere else?
  Mr. C. S. Taylor: Is any similar action being taken against the Dean of Canterbury?
  Mr. Paget: Can the Minister tell us whether the Government have any power to prevent somebody going abroad, and whether people are not entitled to go abroad without a passport if they choose?
  Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. A passport is simply a facility, and if a person is not in possession of a passport he will experience considerable difficulty in leaving the country.
  Sir H. Williams: Not in leaving this country, but in arriving at another.
  Mr. Gammans: Why should we not be told the name of this mysterious Foreign Office official?
  Mr. Davies: Because certain inquiries are still being made, and it might prejudice those inquiries if the name were revealed.
  Mr. Follick: Is my hon. Friend aware that only selected individuals are admitted into Russia, and that I have been trying to get into Russia for the last four years but have not been able to get permission from the Russians to do so?
  Mr. Davies: I do not think my hon. Friend's passport has been impounded.
  Mr. Foot: Is it not a fact that there is no evidence of any definite character against Dr. Burhop? Is it not highly desirable that, in default of such safeguards as my hon. Friend the Member for Northfield (Mr. Blackburn) has mentioned, these matters should be conducted in private, if it is conceivably possible, because it is very harsh that a man should be subjected to the kind of processes to which Dr. Burhop has been subjected in the last few days?
  Mr. Blackburn: Is the Minister aware that this particular delegation contained a scientist who has far more knowledge about secret information in relation to atomic energy than has Dr. Burhop? I refer to Dr. Kathleen Lonsdale.
  21. Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs under what authority and in what circumstances requests are made to British subjects to surrender their British passports.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The issue of passports is entirely discretionary. They remain the property of His Majesty's Government and may be withdrawn at any time. A request for the surrender of a passport is only made as an exceptional measure taken for the most substantial reasons, but it is not possible to indicate in detail in what circumstances such a request would be made
  Mr. Fletcher: Is it not intolerable that the Executive should take away a British subject's passport and thereby, without any judicial process, deprive him of his constitutional right to leave the country at will with or without a passport? If the Executive think it necessary to have such powers in the interests of national security, should not they come to Parliament and ask for such powers?
  Mr. Davies: In the first place, if a passport is impounded or cancelled it does not necessarily mean that that person is unable to leave the country. As I have stated, a passport is a facility, and if it is withdrawn it certainly impedes the leaving of the country by that person and his entry into other countries. As regards the legal aspect, it is at present stated on passports that the passport is the property of His Majesty's Government and can be withdrawn.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Cannot the hon. Gentleman imagine circumstances in which the withdrawal of a passport might constitute a grave reflection on a person's character. Is it not right that such reflections should not be cast officially on people's characters without some sort of appeal or legal remedy?
  Mr. Davies: As I have stated, no such action is taken unless it is considered necessary for certain reasons, mainly the question of national security or the public interest. Those are the reasons for which such action is taken.
  Mr. Mitchison: Is not this the position: that a man without a passport may leave this country but may well find some difficulty in getting into the next one?
  Mr. Paget: Is there not all the difference in the world between "in the interests of public security" and "in the public interest"? The public interest is a political matter, which is judged by the Government; security is quite different. Which of these two categories is the right one?
  Mr. Bell: In view of the fact that international travel is not possible now without a passport, will the Foreign Secretary introduce legislation to ensure that British subjects are entitled by law to an international identity document so that in peace-time the Executive will have no control over the departure from, and the return to, this country of British subjects?
  Sir H. Williams: Going back to Magna Carta—it is a long time back—has not a British subject an unqualified right to leave this country and to come back to this country. whether he has a passport or not?
  Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. The position is that a passport is issued by the courtesy of His Majesty's Government to those persons who request it, unless there is some reason why a passport should not be issued. It is not a document which entitles people to travel or which puts any impediment in their way of travelling. What happens is that if a person tries to leave the country without a passport, it is quite probable that the shipping company or air line would refuse to take him. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] They would probably refuse to carry such people because they would be responsible for returning them to this country if they were not allowed entry into the country to which they were going.
  Mr. Fletcher: In view of the fact that the Minister's answer obviously reveals a very unsatisfactory state of affairs, I must give notice that I will endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
  Mr. J. Langford-Holtasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British subjects have had their passports withdrawn; and what is the position of a British subject who leaves the country without a passport on seeking to re-enter the country.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: In the course of years the aggregate number of passports impounded must be considerable, but it is not possible to give even an approximate estimate of the number. The impounding of a passport is, however, an exceptional measure which is only taken for the most substantial reasons.
  In order to establish his right to enter the country, a British subject seeking entry without a passport may be called upon to produce other documentary evidence of identity and of British nationality.
  Mr. Langford-Holt: Will the hon. Gentleman make it quite clear—which he has not done yet—that neither he nor the Government have any legal right whatever to prevent a British subject from either leaving or re-entering this country: that is the only point?
  Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir; but there are certain exceptions. For instance, if a man were wanted for a criminal offence in this country he would not be allowed to leave, but there are only a very few exceptions.
  Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett: Can the hon. Gentleman say under what law or order these passports were impounded?
  Mr. Davies: Under the Aliens Act. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I withdraw-that I cannot answer without notice.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Going back, not quite so far as Magna Carta, to when certain people left the country quite recently, where there not loud protests because the Government had not taken proper steps to prevent them?
  Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. It is not possible to have it both ways. There was a strong demand by hon. Members opposite for the equivalent of exit permits.
  Mr. Mitchison: Are not His Majesty's Government legally entitled to recover their property—the passport—when they choose?

  TRIESTE (MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS)
  Mr. Hopkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the electoral law providing for party alliances adopted in Italy is not to be applied in the forthcoming municipal elections in the Anglo-American zone of Trieste.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Zone Commander decided, after very careful study of the issues involved, that the former Italian Electoral Law of 1946, which, with certain modifications, was successfully applied in the Trieste elections of 1949, should again be applied this year. He considered the former law more suitable in view of the special conditions prevailing in Zone A.
  Mr. Hopkinson: Is it not the practice in the Anglo-American zone of Trieste to apply Italian law wherever that can possibly be done, and may not the failure to apply this law have some very unfortunate result in the elections, notably in the election of a large number of Communists?
  Mr. Davies: The application of Italian law is entirely within the decision of the Zone Commander. It was considered by him that the application of the new Italian law would prejudice certain minorities in the Zone which we considered it our duty to protect.

  BURMA (OIL INDUSTRY)
  Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what date he first received a request from the Government of Burma for a further loan to enable the oil industry to be opened up again; and to what extent he has insisted as a prerequisite to continuing negotiations in this matter that guarantees shall be given by the Government of Burma that no more expropriation or nationalisation of British interests in Burma shall take place.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: In a letter of 28th March, 1951, the Burmese Prime Minister asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for favourable consideration of a Burma Government note of 20th March, requesting a loan of £5 million to finance the share they would like to take up in an enterprise, which it is proposed should be established jointly with the interested oil companies, to exploit the oil industry in Burma.
  The protection of British interests is a constant object of His Majesty's Government's policy, and the hon. Member may rest assured that this will not be lost sight of in the present case. It would, however, scarcely be appropriate in the context of the oil negotiations to seek guarantees of the general nature suggested.
  Mr. Gammans: In view of the great need for capital investment within the British Empire and our scarcity of capital surely it is not unreasonable for this House to insist that before any further money is given to Burma we should get effective guarantees that any British interests in that country will not be expropriated, as they have been in the past?
  Mr. Davies: The policy of His Majesty's Government in that respect is well known. Where nationalisation takes place, we expect reasonable compensation.
  Mr. Paton: Is it not the case that oil may be just as difficult to obtain as capital, and should we not do all we can to encourage Burmese production?

  FESTIVAL OF BRITAIN

    " East Midlands "
    Commander Maitlandasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is aware that a book published for the Festival of Britain Office contains a statement making reflections on the attractions of Lincolnshire coastal resorts; if he is aware that these criticisms are without foundation and have caused indignation; why this statement was allowed to be published; and what action he is taking in this matter.
    Mr. Osborneasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is aware that a book published for the Festival of Britain Office, copy of which has been sent to him, makes an unwarranted attack on the borough of Cleethorpes; and if he will have these objectionable statements erased from any future publication.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Stokes): I am aware that in "East Midlands: A new Guide Book with a Portrait," by W. G. Hoskins, published by Collins for the Festival of Britain Office, there is a reference to Cleethorpes and other seaside towns on the Lincolnshire coast as "a paradise for small children," with the added comment that "Cleethorpes is best avoided by the casual visitor." I do not read these remarks as constituting "an unwarranted attack" on the borough of Cleethorpes, or as making reflections on the attractions of the Lincolnshire coastal resorts, and I do not propose to take any action in the matter.
    Commander Maitland: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these towns are very proud of themselves and of their services to the community? It is really extremely offensive that these statements should be made, and people are extremely indignant and irritated.
    Mr. Stokes: If the hon. and gallant Member carefully reads the paragraph to which he takes exception, he will see that what I have said is quite correct. Mr. Hoskins is a well-known authority employed by local authorities to publish books on their behalf.
    Commander Maitland: Why are these publications not properly vetted by the Minister?
    Mr. Stokes: I do not suppose it will occur again.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: Why does the author of this book consider that this coast is in the East Midlands?
    Mr. Stokes: He got mixed up with the Middle East, I expect.

    " Cutty Sark "
    Mr. Gammansasked the Lord Privy Seal why the "Cutty Sark" has not been towed up the Thames and used as part of the South Bank Exhibition, as was originally intended.
    Mr. Stokes: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the then Lord President of the Council to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner), on 19th February last.
    Mr. Gammans: Is there still no hope a t all of having the "Cutty Sark" towed up the river?
    Mr. Stokes: None whatever, for the reasons stated; we have not rebuilt the bridges yet.

    South Bank Exhibition (Continuance)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Lord Privy Seal what decision has been reached in respect to the proposed continuation of the South Bank Exhibition in 1952.
    Mr. Stokes: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) on 11th July.
    Mr. Dodds: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be regrettable to dismantle this Exhibition which has been created at high cost and has great value in human happiness and in the educational sphere? Would he look into the effect of having a showman included—an enterprising showman on the spot—to get the additional support? If not, will he look into this and other matters before a final decision is made?
    Mr. Stokes: I have had the matter before me and no case has yet been made out financially attractive to me. Until
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    it is, I do not propose to recommend any alternative to closing down on the announced date. As regards the new showman—
    Mr. Dodds: A showman, not a new showman. In view of the necessity of assessing the answer given, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    Festival Gardens (Continuance)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Lord Privy Seal what progress has been made in obtaining the necessary approval to the Festival features at Battersea being retained in 1952.
    Mr. Stokes: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) yesterday.
    Mr. Henry Brooke: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain what he meant yesterday when he said that in his opinion to keep the Exhibition open for one more year would be stupid, but to keep it open for two or five years would be quite all right?
    Mr. Stokes: Certainly. As I think I explained in the course of the debate, to keep it open beyond this year would cost a certain amount in maintenance beyond that estimated at the time it was built, and if that money is to be spent—if Parliament decides to do so—I would not think it worth while for one year, but I would think it worth while for two or five years.

    Takings
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Lord Privy Seal how the takings of the South Bank Festival Exhibition compare with the outgoings to date.
    Mr. Stokes: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Norfolk, Central (Brigadier Medlicott) yesterday.
    Brigadier Clarke: Would the right hon. Gentleman say that the takings have come up to his planned expectations?
    Mr. Stokes: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House, for the

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    benefit of those who have not seen that reply, whether the South Bank Exhibition is making a week-by-week profit or loss?
    Mr. Stokes: Roughly, income was £800,000 for the period and maintenance expenses about £250,000.
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Lord Privy Seal how the takings of the Festival Gardens and Funfair compare with the outgoings to date.
    Mr. Stokes: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) on 17th July. I would, however, add that so far the weekly balance has been very substantially on the right side.

  MINISTRY OF MATERIALS

    Dutch Strawboards
    Sir Edward Boyleasked the Lord Privy Seal the total tonnage of Dutch strawboards imported by this country from 1st January, 1951, to 31st May, inclusive.
    Mr. Stokes: 50,361 tons of strawboard weighing more than 90 lb. to the standard ream were imported into the United Kingdom from The Netherlands during January to May, 1951.

    Waste-Paper Collection
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a further statement on the progress of the collection of waste paper.
    Mr. Stokes: For the five weeks, 28th April-2nd June, 1951, receipts of waste paper by mills were at the annual rate of 1,002,300 tons. Although this was slightly in excess of consumption, some board-making machinery is not yet fully employed and still larger quantities of waste paper are required.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Is the Minister satisfied that all steps are being taken to get maximum collection of this very vital waste product?
    Mr. Stokes: No, I am not satisfied, but I am doing my best.

    Softwoods (Retail Purchase)
    Mr. Oakshottasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will now restore the right
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    to buy retail small quantities of softwoods without a licence, which is at present prohibited under Statutory Instrument, 1949, No. 2093, the Control of Timber. No. 52 Order.
    Mr. Stokes: No, Sir. There are a number of essential requirements which must be met before we can make the relaxation suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Oakshott: Will the Minister make sure that the necessity for the continuance of this restriction is very carefully watched? Is he aware that it does cause a great deal of inconvenience to small merchants and householders and ought to be removed as soon as the supply position warrants it?
    Mr. Stokes: Yes, I have the supply position under very careful consideration, and as soon as possible I hope to make some minor adjustment in the not too distant future.

    Sulphur
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Lord Privy Seal what tonnage of sulphur over and above the United States allocation has been acquired by his Department to the latest available date.
    Mr. Stokes: There have been no imports of sulphur on Government account this year other than from the U.S.A. All other purchases in the first six months of the year were on private account.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Would the right hon. Gentleman say how he reconciles statements of Government spokesmen that there are no conditions attached to the American allocation and that buyers can go anywhere for sulphur with a letter that went from a Department of the Board of Trade in May stating that the Government were not interested in sulphur from Italy because it would probably be offset against the allocation from America?
    Mr. Stokes: I have seen the letter. Offers from Italy were not pursued further at that time when it was clear towards the end of May that any such imports would be taken into account in the international allocation for the third quarter of this year.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the sulphur from Italy has been brought here by air?
    Mr. Stokes: Not without notice.
    Mr. G. R. Howard: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a grave shortage of sulphur, and immediate acute shortage in West Cornwall, and can he do anything to help us there?
    Mr. Stokes: While I am aware of the sulphur situation, the allocations have been as good as we expected for the early months of this year, and every possible step is being taken to increase them at the earliest possible date.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Is the situation then that we cannot get sulphur from anywhere else without it being taken into account in the United States allocation?
    Mr. Stokes: Yes, by and large.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that a Ministerial spokesman of the Government —in the Board of Trade—made a statement which is entirely in conflict with the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman himself today?
    Mr. Stokes: I will have a look at it.

  WEST INDIES REGIMENT
  Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now state what steps he has taken to discuss with the various Governments concerned the re-forming of the West Indies Regiment.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Cook): I am unable at present to add to what I said on the subject during the debate on the West Indies on 11th July.
  Mr. Braine: Since the revival of this Regiment, which served with great distinction in the past, will be generally approved of in the West Indies, and will make a substantial contribution to Commonwealth defence, can the Under-Secretary tell us what are the reasons for the continued delay in getting a decision in this matter?
  Mr. Cook: Because local governments have to be consulted in the matter.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES (BRITISH INVESTMENTS)
  Mr. Stewardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to ensure that British capital invested by the Colonial Development Corporation in British Colonial Territories is safeguarded in the event of self-government being granted to any particular Colony.
  Mr. Cook: When any British colonial territory becomes self-governing, the nature of the steps which it may be desirable or appropriate to take to protect United Kingdom investments, including those of the Colonial Development Corporation, in that territory will depend on the circumstances at that time.
  Mr. Steward: Is the Under-Secretary aware that a certain Mr. Josey has stated on the Malayan radio that in certain eventualities the rubber industry would be nationalised? Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied, in view of the fact that considerable sums are being invested in that Colony, that the necessary safeguards are being taken to protect those investments?
  Mr. Cook: There is another Question on that point on the Order Paper.

  COLONIAL STUDENTS, U.K. (HOSTELS)
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what periodical inspections are made by his Department into the running of the hostels used by colonial students in this country.
  Mr. Cook: Visits are made by officers of my Department and my right hon. Friend is in frequent consultation with the British Council about the running of the hostels for which they are responsible.
  Mr. Cooper: Would my hon. Friend not agree that it is extremely important that these hostels should be run by responsible people in the interests of these students? If I bring to his notice a case where some one who is in control of one of these hostels is alleged to be a Communist, will he have it looked into in view of the information already in his possession to the effect that students have been brought over from West Africa to Eastern Berlin under Communist sponsorship?
  Mr. Cook: If my hon. Friend will send me particulars of the case to which he refers, I am quite prepared to look at it.

  JAMAICA (MONA DAM RESERVOIR)
  Mr. G. Cooperasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he proposes to publish the Davidson Report on the failure of the Mona Dam Reservoir Scheme in Jamaica.
  Mr. Cook: The Report of the Committee has been received by the Government of Jamaica, which has authorised its release for local publication as soon as copies have been laid on the Table in the Jamaican Legislature.
  Mr. Cooper: In view of the fact that this dam was initiated against local advice some eight years ago during the Governorship of Lord Milverton, and as it has turned out to be a complete failure, as it holds no water and has cost the taxpayers some £700,000, would it not be a good thing to look into this matter in the closest detail as it was a colonial scheme sponsored under a Tory Government?.
  Mr. Cook: It is not intended to look at this in the Executive Council until a final report is received from Soil Mechanics, Ltd., who have been carrying out experiments.

  MALAYA

    Call-up Evasion
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken in Malaya to prevent the evasion of military duty by those who are liable to be called up, particularly in the case of those who leave the country; and what action it is proposed to take against those who, having left the country for this purpose, try to return to it, especially if they return after the conscription law has been repealed.
    Mr. Gilbert Longdenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to prevent the evasion of military service in Malaya; and, as persons are known to be leaving Malaya in order deliberately to avoid conscription, what action is contemplated against such persons when they return to
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    their own country after the repeal of conscription.
    Mr. Cook: The call-up is for police and civilian service, not for military service. Steps are being taken against persons who fail to attend medical boards and disobey orders of direction. No visa or permit is required to leave Malaya, but those leaving to avoid call-up are not, in any case, likely to become desirable citizens. No alien leaving Malaya to avoid call-up will be permitted to return.
    Mr. Awbery: Is my hon. Friend aware that many of these young men who are called to the Forces in Malaya are not enjoying full citizenship in Malaya? Will my hon. Friend make a promise of this right to them when they have finished their time?
    Mr. Cook: The figures for new citizenship are quite staggering, and we are handling them as rapidly as we can.
    Mr. Gammans: Will the Under-Secretary say what happens to people who leave the country and who are not aliens? Are they to be allowed to return, having evaded their duty, and if so, are not the Government putting a premium on disloyalty?
    Mr. Cook: We are watching this very carefully indeed.
    Mr. Niall Macpherson: To what extent is it possible to evade service by going from Malaya to Singapore, and to what extent is that being done?
    Mr. Cook: I should require notice of that question.

    Casualties (Widows' Compensation)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in view of the civil disturbance in Malaya and the substantial number of European staff of rubber estates who have lost their lives at the hands of bandits, he will review the present inadequacy of the compensation scheme, under which the widows of some planters who gave long years of service in Malaya have only received an ex-gratia award of £375 in respect of their husbands' deaths.
    Mr. Cook: The Emergency (Civilian Injuries Compensation) Regulations, 1949, under which these ex-gratia awards

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    are made were based on the recommendations of a committee containing representatives of the interests involved, and the High Commissioner does not consider that a review of the present scheme is necessary.
    Mr. Janner: Whatever the High Commissioner feels, does my hon. Friend feel that the cases of hardship which have been brought to his notice justify a greater amount being paid?
    Mr. Cook: No, Sir. We are in constant consultation with the High Commissioner on this issue. It must not be assumed that this is the only method of payment made, because many European civilians are employed as auxiliary police and allowances are made in case of injury.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is it not a fact that most plantations insure their members for a considerably larger sum than that mentioned in the Question?
    Mr. Cook: These are additional provisions made by the planters.

  UGANDA (COTTON GINNING)
  Mr. Beresford Craddockasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has completed his scheme for the reorganisation of the Uganda cotton ginning industry; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Cook: The Uganda Government are preparing proposals for the re-organisation of the industry. These will be published for discussion locally before they are implemented. I am not in a position to make a statement at present.
  Mr. Craddock: Would the Under-Secretary give an assurance that an opportunity for discussion will be given in this House before any scheme is put into operation?
  Mr. Cook: I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member's supplementary question.

  KOREA (MEDAL)
  Mr. Chetwyndasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the grant of general recognition for service in Korea.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Yes, Sir. His Majesty has approved proposals for the institution of a Korea medal. A short White Paper on the subject is available in the Vote Office.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this announcement will be received with pleasure by the troops and will give general satisfaction to the public? Is my right hon. Friend able to give any details of the medal and ribbon?
  The Prime Minister: I think it would be better if my hon. Friend would perhaps look at the White Paper, in which he will find the details and particulars set out, and if necessary he can ask a question subsequently.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Is the Prime Minister aware that we also on this side desire to be associated with the general view of the House that this is a good thing? We only wish that a statement could have been made earlier.
  Mr. Drayson: Will this medal rank before or after the United Nations medal, and will British personnel be able to wear the two medals together?
  The Prime Minister: I must have notice of that question.
  Mr. Braine: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Australian and New Zealand Governments have given substantial tax concessions to their fighting men in Korea as a mark of pride in their achievements? Could not some tangible recognition of this kind be given to our own men?
  The Prime Minister: That seems to me to be an entirely different question, but I do not feel that except for certain medals there has ever been pecuniary advantage attached to an award.

BILL PRESENTED
  PNEUMOCONIOSIS AND BYSSINOSIS BILL
  "to provide for the payment of benefit out of the Industrial Injuries Fund to or in respect of certain persons who are totally disabled or die from pneumoconiosis or byssinosis, not being or having been insured in respect of those diseases respectively under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, 1946, (or entitled to workmen's compensation in respect thereof;" presented by Dr. Summerskill; supported by Mr. Ede, Mr. McNeil, Mr. Noel-Baker, Mr. Marquand and Mr. Bernard Taylor; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 144.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered:
" That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'Clock; and that if the first Resolution proposed shall have been agreed to by the Committee of Supply before half-past Nine o'Clock, the Chairman shall proceed to put forthwith the Questions which he is directed to put at half-past Nine o'Clock by paragraph (6) of Standing Order No. 16 (Business of Supply)." —[The Prime Minister.]
Proceedings on Government Business exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [25TH ALLOTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL AND MINISTRY OF DEFENCE ESTIMATES, 1951–52
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a sum, not exceeding £36,818,493, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sums necessary to defray the charges for the following services connected with Foreign Affairs and Defence in relation thereto for the year ending on the 31st March, 1952, namely:
  Civil Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, 1951–52
  Ministry of Defence Estimate and Supplementary Estimate, 1951–52

  £

  Class II, Vote 1, Foreign Service

  8,434,087

  Class II, Vote 2, Foreign Office Grants and Services (including a Supplementary sum of £10)

  15,634,325

  Class IX, Vote 6, Foreign Office (German Section)

  2,650,081

  Class II, Vote 4, United Nations

  560,000

  Ministry of Defence (including a Supplementary sum of £6,000,000)

  9,540,000

  Total

  £36,818,493

  —[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  3.32 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Herbert Morrison): This is the first debate on foreign affairs which, we have had since I became Foreign Secretary. The House has already had its opportunity to pay respect to my predecessor who died so tragically and so soon after leaving office. He did much to represent the spirit of our country to the world. I should like in this debate-today to set out briefly the aims which the Government of our country should follow in the general interests of world peace and progress.
  As the Committee knows, we are proposing not to consider today the affairs of the Middle East, but perhaps the Committee would like me to make a very short statement about Persia, not that it can

  469
  be much or in detail, as to the present position. The present position in regard to the Persian situation is that we have heard from Mr. Harriman that the Persians have indicated to him a basis on which the Persian Government would apparently be prepared to open discussions with His Majesty's Government on this question.
  The Persian attitude in some respects is not yet clear and further information has been asked for and is still awaited. The Committee will not, therefore, expect me to give any further particulars at this time. In considering this question, His Majesty's Government. of course, have particularly in mind the situation as regards the Company's operations and the extent to which the Persian Government are prepared to put an end to the provocation and interference to which the Company's management and staff are being subjected. These flatters are under consideration.
  In the meantime, I should like once again to express our sympathy, which I am sure the whole Committee will share, with the Company's staff in Persia, and to assure them that in staying at their posts and supporting with such fortitude the indignities and hardships of their present situation, they are making a most valuable contribution towards an acceptable solution of the problem.
  Mr. Somerset de Chair Mr. Somerset de Chair (Paddington, South)rose —
  Mr. Morrison: As I indicated, I think that I had better not go into detail on the situation at the moment when Mr. Harriman is doing his best to put forward a settlement. It would not be wise for examination to take place.
  Mr. de Chair: On a point of order. The right hon. Gentleman has just said that he did not wish this debate to cover the affairs of the Middle East, but that, for the convenience of the Committee, he would make a statement about Persia which he could equally have made as a statement to the House before the debate began, when he would then have been subjected to ordinary question and answer across the Floor of the House. Is it not a little unusual for the right hon. Gentleman to inject into this debate such a statement?
  The Chairman: That is not a matter for me and no point of order arises.
  470
  Perhaps I might inform the Committee that I have a very large number of names of hon. Members who wish to speak in this debate. I hope, therefore, that all will co-operate to make their interventions as short as possible in order to enable as many hon. Members as possible to be called.
  Mr. de Chair: Further to that point. It is precisely because we desire to cooperate by not dragging into the debate the general question of Persia and the Middle East that we wish to dispose of this point at once.
  The Chairman: No point of order arises and certainly the better way would be to allow the right hon. Gentleman to proceed.
  Mr. Morrison: I understand that the House will have an opportunity of debating the wider issues of Middle Eastern policy on Monday next.
  Whatever regions we are discussing, our underlying motives and objectives are the same. We have said before, but it is worth saying again, that our first objective is peace—peace for all the world. We do not mean peace at any price, but a peace which will leave us free to get on with the work of social and economic advance and which will itself be the inspiration for that work. For, in the long run, the important thing in international affairs is to co-operate with other countries in all that has to be done—in resettling refugees and people expelled from their homes, in helping under-developed countries to make the best use of their resources and, in general increasing production so as to do away with hunger and poverty. For hunger, poverty and reaction are the raw materials for excessive nationalism, Communism and war.
  This means that our foreign policy must be directed towards two objectives which go hand in hand—freedom and security, on the one hand, and economic prosperity and social justice on the other. We cannot achieve either of these without the other. Let no one run away from the fact that this involves an appropriate degree of economic planning not only, here but as between nations.
  In pursuing these two objectives, we give full support to the United Nations. Within the United Nations we are working closely with other like-minded countries which. in the main, share our aim.

  471
  Take the work of the North Atlantic Treaty. The Treaty, while in form similar to traditional mutual security arrangements, is conceived in a new spirit. It is an association which provides not only for military defence but for voluntary consultation and joint decisions by the countries party to it in important matters of their common interest, including possible fruitful co-operation in economic affairs.
  The work which is being done, not only at the periodic meetings of the Council, but by the Deputies, in the Production Board and in the Financial and Economic Board and in the various military bodies of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation—all this work is bringing together officials and officers of the participating countries day by day in a way which is unique. It is creating a habit of considering national problems from an international angle. This habit has distinct value in helping to create a common point of view in the Atlantic partnership.
  We must face the fact that what brought the North Atlantic Treaty into being is the need to strengthen the defences of the West. We can succeed in our aim of deterring aggression only if we show that the free nations are united in a common resolve to make their defence effective if the need to do so is thrust upon them. That is the background to our re-armament programme, undertaken jointly with our fellow members of N.A.T.O.
  Our first task is to do all we can to strengthen the integrated force for the defence of Western Europe under General Eisenhower. His new headquarters outside Paris are the focus of the determination of the N.A.T.O. powers to defend their freedom if called upon to do so. The peoples of the United Nations already have good cause to be grateful to General Eisenhower for what he did in the last war. I am sure that he can count on the loyal support of the North Atlantic Treaty Powers in increasing production and in building up the efficiency of the forces under his command.
  The first task of the North Atlantic Treaty Powers must be to ensure the security of Western Europe. The security of Western Europe cannot be safeguarded on the mainland of Western Europe alone. The inclusion in the North Atlantic Treaty of the United
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  States and Canada, as well as of Norway, Denmark and Iceland, is proof enough of that. The Mediterranean is also the southern flank of Europe's defence, and. as I have already informed the House. we have come to the conclusion that it is reasonable that Greece and Turkey should join the Treaty, and that this is the best practical means of linking their security, as we must all do, with the existing members of N.A.T.O.
  I have said enough to show that, within the United Nations, the North Atlantic Treaty is the instrument, above all, to which we in the United Kingdom look for furthering our aim in the area which it covers. Because of the broad scope of the Treaty, it is to some extent a framework within which many projects in Europe can be developed.
  The Government have already explained their sympathetic attitude to the Schuman Plan and similar projects for closer economic association between the various European countries. The Government will also continue to play their full part in the Council of Europe at Strasbourg. Plans for the pooling of economic resources show a determination to find new ways of tackling economic problems whose solution has so long eluded individual governments.
  This country, with its ties with the Commonwealth and its economic undertakings all over the world, cannot, of course, give commitments in advance to European organisations of this type. We do, however, wish them every success, and for that reason hope to be able to co-operate with them wherever circumstances permit, so that we ourselves may contribute to their success.
  It is, indeed, inevitable that, when Governments find themselves engaged in a number of these common undertakings, they will in practice find that, over a wide field of policy, they are working towards common solutions of their problems, perhaps not only in the economic field. Much progress has, indeed, already been made in Europe under the aegis of the Organisation for European Economic Cooperation. The experience of O.E.E.C. and much of its machinery is, indeed, now of great value to the North Atlantic Treaty. A similar project, but in the defence field, is the French plan for a European army, in which Germany would

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  take part as an equal member. We consider that the idea of a European army merits very careful consideration and examination, provided it can be made adequately to meet the requirements of North Atlantic Treaty defence.
  I know that this question of German re-armament arouses strong feelings for many reasons, but I ask the House to look at it, not only from the point of view of military requirements, though these are of great importance, but also from the general point of view of the sort of Europe which we want to see in the future. It is common ground that Germany must, in due course, take her place as an equal member of the community of free and democratic nations. It is reasonable, and indeed necessary, that a Germany which is in free association with other democratic countries should have the means to defend herself.
  Clearly, it is in the general interest that the arrangements made for the defence of Germany and for the defence of Western Europe generally should be joint arrangements freely entered into and agreed by all the parties concerned. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in the House on 12th February:
  " We have accepted the need for a contribution from Germany, but the time, method and conditions will require a great deal of working out."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1951; Vol. 484, c. 67.]
  That is exactly what we are doing now, and the Committee will have been aware of the recent conversations at Bonn and of the conversations with regard to a European army at Paris.
  Among the problems of Europe, the position of Spain has recently attracted attention. The policy of His Majesty's Government towards Spain has not changed since last February, when my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs put before the House the reasons why His Majesty's Government are opposed to any association of Spain with the system of Western defence. His Majesty's Government still do not believe that the inclusion of Spain in Western defence would strengthen the community of freedom-loving nations.
  The discussions which the United States Government are now conducting with the Spanish Government are, I understand. directed towards the acquisition of certain facilities for the use of ports and airfields. and do not envisage the entry of Spain
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  into the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. There has been the most frank and friendly exchange of views on this question between ourselves and the Government of the United States. We have expressed to them our conviction that the strategic advantages which might accrue from associating Spain with Western defence would be outweighed by the political damage which such an association might inflict on the Western community of nations. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."]
  In all these matters, we must bear in mind the purposes of our policy, which are constant, and must not be diverted from one thing to another by the day's news or the wonder of the week. As Mr. Dean Acheson expressed it last year, our object has been to build up positions of strength in the West, and we have been doing this steadily in Europe, without excitement or panic, but also without complacency. I think we can say that this policy has been thoroughly successful in the main and that there is no need whatever why we should abandon it. We have shown a firm front wherever there have been threats, but we have never been provocative and we have never given any nation cause to think that our preparations are other than defensive.
  At this moment, after the latest Communist aggression in Korea has been brought to a halt by common action, there are some people who think that we should relax our efforts and change our course of policy. With respect, I do not agree. We have lived long enough with the. "peace campaign"—so-called peace campaign—to know what kind of peace its advocates have in mind and to be very cautious about the various more or less attractive shapes which the campaign assumes from time to time. At the present moment we are told there is a new desire for peace and understanding on the Eastern side of the fence. I sincerely hope that that may be the case. If it is so, we can rejoice, for nothing we are doing or shall do will stand in its way. But we shall not let down our guard or relax our vigilance in any way until we can see the proofs. Here, again, I find myself in full sympathy with what Mr. Acheson said at Detroit yesterday.
  The price of preparing an adequate defence is heavy for all the European Powers. It has meant postponing some

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  of our hopes of economic recovery. Nor were our hopes of economic progress confined to Europe. In Asia, too, we believe that stable and democratic political conditions must be established if peace is to flourish. To make those conditions possible, a real effort is called for to raise the living standards of peoples in that part of the world. In too many places they are still appallingly low. We are therefore co-operating wholeheartedly in the Colombo Plan and will do our best to see that this plan is brought to a successful conclusion.
  The 1st of July was the opening day of the six-year period for which the Commonwealth countries and Colonial and Protected Territories drew up the development programmes covered by the Report published last autumn. Work on these programmes has already started, in some cases ahead of schedule. I should like here to emphasise the point that these programmes are "home-produced"—the Colombo Plan does not conceal some new form of economic imperialism. Instead, it seeks to help the under-developed countries to accomplish the progress they themselves consider most essential to their well-being.
  The Technical Co-operation Scheme is flourishing, and in the seven months odd in which it has been in full operation it has already provided considerable technical assistance to the countries taking part in it. Since the Colombo Plan Report was issued in November last, we have had the pleasure of welcoming the United States Government to membership of the Consultative Committee. Just as the United States contribution to the economic recovery of European countries was immensely important, so we look forward to co-operation in the same aims in Asia.
  The Associate States of Indo-China have decided to join the plan, and we hope that the other non-Commonwealth countries of South-East Asia will do the same, so that the Colombo Plan can be extended to include not only all the countries of this area, but also the more industrially developed countries which are interested in promoting peace, prosperity and stability in the region.
  In the territories for which His Majesty's Government are responsible, development plans were in existance and
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  were being implemented before the inception of the Colombo Plan, and these have been embodied in their "Colombo programme." So far as external financial assistance may be required to carry through their plans, His Majesty's Government have already given an assurance that they will stand behind them. In the Federation of Malaya the execution of this programme is going ahead as fast as preoccupation with the terrorist campaign permits. In all the territories ample finance is available for the immediate future, and any slowing up of progress is more likely to be due to other causes, for example, the shortage of labour and possibly of certain materials.
  The prospects of peace and stability in the Far East have been much set back by the fighting in Korea, but now we have hopes that that fighting may be coming to an end. Armistice talks in Korea have been going on since 10th July. The scope is military and the objectives limited: to bring the fighting to an end so that the future of Korea can be discussed in a peaceful atmosphere. As regards the present talks, it will be better to refrain from commenting for the time being. Nobody knows how long the talks will continue, but some progress has been made towards an agreed agenda.
  This might be a useful moment to take stock of the situation. Just over a year ago North Korea invaded South Korea, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at once announced our decision to play our part in the system of collective security devised by the United Nations to resist aggression and to keep the peace. The Security Council resolution of 25th June, 1950, calling for the immediate cessation of hostilities was ignored by the North Koreans.
  In another resolution on 27th June the Council recommended Member States to furnish such assistance to the Republic of Korea as might be necessary to repel the armed attack. This was the first positive attempt the world had seen of putting collective security into force under an integrated organisation designed to keep the peace. How many times in the past has the opportunity for such action to resist aggression been missed, and with what deplorable effects! The United Nations acted swiftly in pursuit of its obligations. His Majesty's Government, along with other Governments of the

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  Commonwealth, contributed considerable land, sea and air fighting forces to the campaign. These forces have given a magnificent account of themselves, and we are proud of them.
  It would be as well to pause and think what would have happened if the United Nations had not taken action in Korea. The North Koreans, with their vastly superior equipment and mechanised forces, would have overrun the whole of Korea in a short space of time, and aggression would thus have had its reward. A decision by force would thus have been obtained. This would have been entirely contrary to the spirit and purposes of the United Nations whose very basis lies in the peaceful settlement of international disputes. Successful action by the North Koreans might well have led to other aggression elsewhere, and world peace generally would have been greatly endangered.
  If the present armistice negotiations in Korea are successful—and we all hope and pray that they will be—then the United Nations will have achieved something very worth while. The loss of life among the United Nations forces will not have been in vain. For there can be no denying that their sacrifices have done much to prevent a third world war, to uphold the rule of law, and to teach would-be aggressors that to resort to force is dangerous as well as wrong.
  We could not have contributed effectively to this great United Nations effort to enforce collective security and at the same time maintained our world-wide commitments if we had not provided ourselves with the physical means of doing so. Suppose we had remained disarmed to the extent that we disarmed after World War II; suppose we had not foreseen the danger of aggression and taken steps with our allies to meet that danger accordingly. In that case not only would events in the last year have taken a different course, but the outlook today would have been dark and ominous indeed.
  Mr. Litvinov remarked in 1934 that peace was indivisible. I wish his sentiments had been shared since the end of the war by his compatriots. While they and their friends have been talking so much about peace, their actions have unhappily belied their words and Korea is the outstanding example of this. Korea
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  is a significant landmark to a world in search of peace and security. I hope its lesson will never be forgotten.
  Another important contribution to the stability of the Far East will be the conclusion of a Treaty of Peace with Japan, and I think it is right that I should devote some little attention to this important development in world affairs. The draft Japanese Peace Treaty, published as a White Paper on 12th July, including the minor textual amendments set out in the subsequent White Paper published yesterday, has now been circulated to States which declared war on Japan. The draft Treaty is the result of consultation between His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, Commonwealth Governments and the Government of the United States of America, which have been in progress ever since the summer of 1947.
  The recent talks which took place with Mr. Dulles in London enabled the United Kingdom and United States Governments to agree upon the text which has now been published with only a few agreed reservations. But there has been no question of any attempt to determine the final terms of a Japanese Treaty without taking into account the views of the other principal Powers concerned, and we have now reached the point of formal consultation with those and other Powers at war with Japan upon the latest draft. There is one notable exception to which reference will be made later.
  It should be emphasised once more that, as far as the United Kingdom is concerned, this formal consultation is the logical outcome of the continuous and close consultation with other members of the Commonwealth who have been kept informed of the progress of the talks with Mr. Dulles. It will also be recalled that the Governments of Australia and New Zealand discussed the Peace Treaty with Mr. Dulles during his tour in the Far East in the early part of this year.
  Before turning to the Treaty itself, some clarification is necessary on the question of Chinese participation in the signature of a multilateral Treaty, since China was certainly one of the principal Powers in the war against Japan. As is well known, the difficulty here lies in the fact that the principal Powers are not agreed as to the Government which could properly represent China in the signature

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  of a multilateral Peace Treaty with Japan. Indeed, the 14 Powers who are regarded as those principally concerned in the war with Japan are almost equally divided between those who recognise the Central People's Government of China—and that number includes the United Kingdom—and those who recognise the Nationalist Government of Chiang Kai-shek.
  It seemed to us unlikely that general agreement would be reached in the near future, so that, if this stumbling block were not removed, the conclusion of a Treaty with Japan would have to be indefinitely delayed. Now agreement is general, even amongst those Powers which are opposed to our point of view as to how a Treaty should be prepared, namely, the U.S.S.R. and China, that an early Peace Treaty is essential.
  In 1949 the Government of the Soviet Union suggested that an early peace with Japan was of great importance and it was supported in this statement by the newly-constituted Central People's Government of China. It therefore seemed that the only course to adopt would be to set aside this question of China's participation and, while safeguarding Chinese rights and interests, not to invite any Chinese to participate in the signature of the multilateral treaty now contemplated. This is a course much to be regretted but, after exhaustive consideration of the subject, there seemed to be no other way.
  This conclusion does not imply in any way that His Majesty's Government have ignored or wish to ignore China's major interest in the peace settlement with Japan, and it does not mean we do not still recognise the Peking Government as the Government of China. The text of the Treaty provides that Japan will, for a period of three years after the present Treaty comes into force, be prepared to make a substantially similar Treaty of Peace with any State at war with her which signed the United Nations' Declaration of 1st January, 1942, but which does not sign the present draft Peace Treaty. China's rights and interests are thus safeguarded, as she was one of the States which signed the United Nations' Declaration referred to. In addition, the Treaty gives China, although not a signatory, the benefit of certain articles. It can fairly be said, therefore, that we have not been
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  unmindful of China's position or of her rights and interests in the matter.
  To turn now to the Treaty in general, it represents the sum total of agreement reached so far as a result of the consultations which have taken place. We have for some time past been in agreement with the United States that, after a lapse of six years since the end of the war with Japan, a Peace Treaty with that country should be of a liberal, non-punitive and non-restrictive nature—nonpunitive, because Japan has already been made to suffer greatly as a result of her defeat in the war, and also because there is no desire on our part to perpetuate in any vengeful spirit the measures which were necessary at the time for the occupation and de-militarisation of that country; non-restrictive, because there has been general agreement that Japan, with its present population of 83 million, mounting at the rate of one million a year, must be enabled to possess an economy which will ensure a reasonable standard of living to her people. To adopt any other course would not only be to perpetrate an injustice but also to create conditions which could only sow the seeds of further trouble in the future.
  Our decision in favour of a liberal Peace Treaty was a deliberate one. Many hon. Members will remember the trail of troubles left by the Treaty of Versailles. Certainly the Labour Party, in the course of its history, has not been backward in condemning much associated with the Treaty of Versailles, and we must remember those things at this time. We might have adopted a Versailles policy over the Japanese Peace Treaty, but after careful thought we felt that the contrary policy of a liberal treaty would give us the best chance of seeing Japan develop along liberal Parliamentary lines and play her part in the free world.
  One of the matters which has exercised participants in the treaty-making has been the question of security. Here there are two aspects to consider. On the one hand, there are some who believe that, given the chance, Japan will again become an aggressor nation and threaten the free world. On the other, there is the hard fact that if Japan is left entirely defenceless she will become an easy victim to aggression by others.

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  It will be observed that in the present draft Treaty there are no actual restrictions upon Japanese re-armament. Such restrictions have been written into treaties in the past, and with the passage of time they have not been observed. Experience shows that such restrictions in a treaty not only do not ensure the desired result, but tend to provide a focus for the worst evils of nationalism, In point of fact, Japan, having been deprived by her loss of territory of important sources of raw materials, will not be able in the foreseeable future to re-arm to the extent of becoming a potential aggressor.
  This question however, is closely bound up with that of the defence of Japan itself. Today Japan has no armaments of any description and no armed forces apart from the police. She is, therefore, in no position to resist aggression should such aggression be contemplated. It will be observed that in the present draft Treaty Japan accepts the obligations set forth in Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations. At the same time, the Allied Powers recognise that Japan possesses the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence referred to in Article 51 of the Charter.
  As at present contemplated, the security of Japan will be ensured by the voluntary conclusion by Japan of a defence pact with the United States of America, whereby balanced forces will be maintained for the defence of Japanese territory. It will, no doubt, be argued by those who are opposed to the security of Japan from aggression that such a pact represents an attempt by the United States to build up Japan in order that she may commit aggression against China or Russia, or both. We are satisfied that no such intention exists and that all that is contemplated is that the necessary forces will be stationed in and around Japan by arrangement between Japan and the United States which will ensure that Japan herself cannot become a victim of aggression.
  One of the main security factors from the point of view of the United Kingdom has been the effect which the contemplated defence agreement between Japan and the United States and the consequent partial re-armament of Japan might be expected to have upon the defence of other members of the Commonwealth, particularly that of Australia and of New
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  Zealand. This question is one of the major problems connected with the Japanese Peace Treaty to which most careful thought has been given for a long time.
  It has now been found possible to achieve a significant contribution to the security of Australia and of New Zealand in the Pacific area by the negotiation of a Tripartite Defence Agreement between these two members of the Commonwealth and the United States. His Majesty's Government, as is well known, have been in close consultation with the Governments of Australia and New Zealand throughout the negotiation of this Defence Agreement.
  In the territorial provisions of the Treaty it has been considered appropriate to do no more than to arrange that Japan should renounce all right, title and claim to the various territories which, by general agreement with the Allies, she should give up. The independence of Korea is recognised by Japan.
  In the matter of economic provisions we have considered it proper in one particular, namely, the Congo Basin Treaties, to re-define Japan's position. Japan was a signatory to the Conventions concluded at St. Germain-en-Laye in 1919 in connection with the trade of the territories within the Congo Basin. She will be required to renounce such rights as she possesses as a signatory Power to these Conventions.
  With regard to the other economic provisions of the Treaty, we have been guided by the same considerations as those which determined our attitude on security. On the one hand, we attach importance to the early resumption of full sovereignty by Japan; on the other, we place little reliance on the effectiveness of punitive restrictions in a peace treaty. Thus the Treaty provides that Japan will be prepared to negotiate suitable treaties of trade, commerce and navigation with those of the Allied Powers who wish to do so.
  Pending the conclusion of such treaties, Japan is required for a period of four years to give to each of the Allied Powers, and to each of their dependent territories, Most-Favoured-Nation treatment with respect to Customs duties, restrictions and other regulations in connection with the import and export of goods, and

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  national treatment with respect to shipping, imported goods and business activities, including taxation and property rights, if Japan is in fact accorded such treatment in return.
  This, of course, imposes no obligation upon the United Kingdom or upon any other Allied Power to treat Japan in any particular way, but means that the United Kingdom or any Colonial Territory would forfeit its rights to national or Most-Favoured-Nation treatment in any particular field if it failed to give Japan the treatment in question. This complicated matter has already been the subject of a statement by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on 12th July in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. McKay).
  I fully realise the anxieties of Lancashire and the fears held there of a revival of Japanese competition. Lancashire and other places, too, remember the troubles of pre-war years, and I remember them also. I do, however, assure hon. Members that for practical purposes on this point also it is useless—indeed, I think, it is impossible—to write into the Treaty effective restrictions. In the long run the future prosperity of Lancashire, like the rest of Britain, will depend upon the sustained pursuit of the right economic policies at home and on international cooperation in economic affairs.
  There has been considerable discussion, especially among holders of Japanese sterling bonds, about the possibility of Japan resuming payments on her external debt. The draft Treaty emphasises that pre-war obligations have not been affected by the war, and it includes a Japanese affirmation of liability for the pre-war external debt, as well as undertakings about early negotiations between debtors and creditors for the resumption of service of the debts.
  The general financial provisions of the Treaty have been much influenced by our agreement that it should be of a nonrestrictive nature in order to enable Japan to maintain a reasonable standard of living for her people. Poverty is bad enough; externally imposed poverty is worse. During the six years of the occupation, Japan has been a financial liability and her essential imports of food and raw materials have cost the United
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  States Government over 2,000 million dollars in that time. The draft Treaty, therefore, while recognising the principle that Japan should in equity be required to make due reparations for the damage and suffering which she caused by embarking upon an aggressive war, also recognises that unfortunately adequate reparation cannot be made. It does, however, provide for certain measures of compensation which it is within Japan's capacity to pay.
  In the first place, Japan will, if required, render to any of the Allied Powers whose territory was over-run assistance in repairing the damage done by the Japanese occupation. The draft Treaty provides for the resumption by Allied nationals of their property and property rights in Japan. It also gives each of the Allies the right to seize all Japanese assets within its territory, subject to certain exceptions. Our proposals for the use of Japanese assets in the United Kingdom for the benefit of those who suffered as prisoners of war or civilian internees are set out in the answer given today to my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd).
  Moreover, the draft Treaty included some recognition of Japan's desire to make recompense for the suffering endured by prisoners of war in her hands. As an indication of this desire, Japan will agree to the transfer, subject to certain exceptions, of her assets in former neutral or ex-enemy countries to the International Red Cross. The total value of these assets is about £5 million, and the intention is that the International Red Cross should liquidate them and distribute the proceeds as it deems appropriate for the benefit of former prisoners of war and their families. Clearly, funds will not permit the payment of a large lump sum to all ex-prisoners, but it is hoped that, whatever is the basis of distribution adopted, some measure of relief will be afforded to British ex-prisoners of war of His Majesty's Forces, including those raised in the Colonies and Protectorates.
  I am grateful to the House for bearing with this lengthy exposition of the draft Peace Treaty, which I am hoping to sign at San Francisco on behalf of the United Kingdom on 8th September. I felt that the House should be given the fullest possible information before the summer Recess.

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  I have spoken long enough, but even so I have dealt only with some of the issues confronting us in the world. There is a whole complex of pressing problems in and about the Middle East to be discussed on Monday. More and more the problems of international affairs—political, economic and social—affect our daily lives in our own country.
  The general body of our citizens are pretty well agreed on the sort of world we want to see and on the sacrifices we are prepared to make to achieve it, and I think we are also in agreement on the broad issues with our fellow members of the Commonwealth, our neighbours in Western Europe and our friends in the United States. Agreement is not always reached easily, but we are all free to speak our minds, and we do so; for our friends in the Commonwealth, the United States and elsewhere share most of our ideals.
  We believe that those ideals are sound and we hope that in course of time they will be accepted by all nations. All of this means that we must make our contribution and we must make our appropriate sacrifices if the common advantage of the world is to be achieved, and that others must do the same. It is a tragic fact, a very tragic fact, that there are Governments which seem to be animated by other purposes. If they are to follow a course which will benefit all mankind, a real change of front is needed. We are always looking for that change of front.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Change of heart.
  Mr. Morrison: We are always looking for that change of heart, that change of spirit, and if we see clear signs that it has taken place, we shall be ready to grasp with both hands the opportunity for new and world-wide progress.
  4.25 p.m.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman paid a tribute to his predecessor, for whose spirit I should again like to express our own admiration on the occasion of this debate. On the question of Persia, I accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement as being an interim statement. Subject to there being no need for any further statement this week or for any Question from this side, I think we had better leave
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  the matter to be discussed as arranged on Monday.
  We welcome the debut of the right hon. Gentleman as Foreign Secretary. I do not think any Foreign Secretary can be said to have been baptised until he has been through the lengthy ordeal of what is called, in Foreign Office parlance, atour d'horizon.The right hon. Gentleman has got through his tour de force,and I think he has got through as well as any of his predecessors. We have certainly missed from his statement some of the more lively and controversial language he has used outside the House, for example to the miners. We have also missed from his statement some of the more proud and almost bragging language which he used when he was dubbed "Lord Festival," but we have, I think, discerned those qualities of statesmanship of which the country is in such need at the present time.
  I would myself say that his speech could best be described in the expression I saw on the back of a bus as I came to the House this afternoon—an expression advertising a certain well-known tyre. It said, "Buy our famous Zig-Zag safety tread." That seems to me to express the zig-zag safety-tread path which the right hon. Gentleman has hitherto followed in the foreign policy of this country. I can only hope that the tyre which we are discussing this afternoon will not skid unduly, that it will occasionally be able to accelerate a little more than it has done, and that it will eventually get us somewhere; and with those few words I will come to the substance of the right hon. Gentleman's reference to the objectives governing British policy.
  We have no reason to differ from the statement of objectives, in general, of British foreign policy at this or any other time. These objectives are for us summed up in the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. We stress, perhaps even more than the right hon. Gentleman did in his speech. our devotion to the British Commonwealth of Nations and our belief that in the mobilising of the strength, both economic and strategic, of the British Commonwealth lies the safety of these islands.
  We are not in any way second to him in our desire for close working with the United States of America. In fact, I shall illustrate shortly that perhaps we shall

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  desire to work even more closely with that great country. We stand frankly for British interests and are not ashamed of it, and we believe, as the right hon. Gentleman does, that the economic argument is vital in the conduct of our foreign policy today.
  In view of your appeal about the number of Members wishing to speak, Major Milner, I shall not have time to go into great detail about the Colombo Plan, but I should like to ask whether, in studying the Colombo Plan and bringing it into force, we are working with the alleged machinery and the alleged help which is to come from the President's Point Four, about which we have heard very little lately.
  Despite the fact that we agree on these main principles of British foreign policy, there seem to us to be several major defects in the conduct of foreign policy by His Majesty's Government at the present time. First of all, as I shall show in various instances that I shall cover, there does not seem to have been sufficient evidence of a sense of urgency in handling the major problems of the hour. Secondly, we have an uneasy and, alas, an apparently justified impression that the voice of Great Britain is not being heard at the present time with sufficient strength or with enough emphasis. No doubt we shall hear more of that in the debate on Monday.
  But thirdly, there seems in the midst of all the preparations for improved defence arrangements and for building up positions of strength, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, an inadequate will or insufficient machinery to give the political directives which are necessary to represent the united determination of all our Governments and nations involved, and it is in these directions that we would beseech the right hon. Gentleman to proceed, and to give some evidence of firmness and unity of purpose, not only within this country but among the major nations involved.
  In the early part of my speech, before coming to consider the Japanese Treaty, I had better allude to this question of Spain. Before I examine the merits of the American move in Spain, I should say that, by the fact that it is unilateral, it has to that extent taken away from the strength of unity of purpose which we
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  would wish to be made to prevail among the Allied nations. It has for that reason excited a good deal of adverse comment. But when we come to examine it calmly and dispassionately I think we must recognise—and I should like to take a line different from the right hon. Gentleman on this matter—that this move is intimately connected, in the United States' view, with the needs of Western strategy.
  The United States' interest in this matter has always been well known and recognised. General Marshal and General Eisenhower and many other American leaders have, in the past, expressed definite views on the strategic importance of the Iberian Peninsula. Even at the time of the signature of the Atlantic Pact, the Spanish gap was recognised. It was clear then that Spain should not be included in the Atlantic Pact. I should like at once to illustrate why it is important that it should be examined calmly by saying that, so far as my information goes, there has been no request by Spain to be included in that Pact at the present time. Indeed, I would go further and say that the inclusion of Spain in the North Atlantic Pact, or, indeed, within the United Europe Organisation, is not before us at the present time, and I have no desire to pursue it.
  In this context I should like to say that I thought that the Foreign Secretary's compliment to the speech of the Under-Secretary of State on Spain at a late hour of night some months ago was most undesirable. We recognise the loyalty of the Foreign Secretary to his own Under-Secretary, and that we accept; but I should like to say that I thought that the speech was a most unfortunate one for the sake of international relations, whether in the case of Spain or any other country, and I further think that any attempt to base our foreign policies on a purely ideological basis is not in the best interests of this country or of any other.
  Leaving that aside, we have no right to cavil at the United States if she pursues a strategic plan which, in her view, is designed to reinforce the West, and in this connection I should like to remind the Committee that Mr. Acheson has, in a recent statement, on 30th July, made clear that there is no intention to alter the provisions of men or materials established under the North Atlantic Treaty for the

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  defence of Europe. I should take a sinister view of this move if I thought that the United States were by it dragging men and materials away from the vital scene or in any way resigning from their proud intention to help us in that area. But Mr. Dean Acheson has spoken of this essential matter in the following words. He says that this new move does not alter the firm intention of the United States
  " to see to it, that if Western Europe is attacked, it will be defended and not liberated."
  In fact, it may well be that the new arrangements, looked at from the angle of the United States, may well fortify and buttress the United States' determination.
  I should like to say to the whole Committee that if this new move in any way assists the prevention of the economic collapse of Spain—and I am purposely avoiding all political arguments today—and if the economic collapse of Spain could be avoided, it would be very much to our interests in our general struggle against Communism at the present time. Further, appeal to the Committee and say that it is not for us, however strongly we may feel on Spanish issues—and I have probably been as much in controversy over Spain in this Committee or in the House as any living man, and I have learned my lesson—it is not for us to prevent action calculated to help the Spanish people, who are still suffering from the loss of over one million men in their civil war.
  Now I come to consideration of the right hon. Gentleman's observations on the Japanese Treaty. In the case of Japan we have felt in the Opposition during the time of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor and for some time past that this has been the arc in the bow of world policy, which appears to have been omitted from the precise attention of British foreign policy. To take one instance, the Commonwealth, we understand, has now got a token contingent, an occupation force, in Japan. The United Kingdom, perhaps for understandable reasons, is not represented in that contingent. But what is essential is that we should now be properly represented in Japan, and that we should resume our historic close association with the Japanese people. In this connection we are glad to hear that that great expert
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  on Far Eastern affairs, Sir Esler Dening, is going to Japan to represent his country.
  Before Japanese policy became subordinated to the control of military and naval cliques, and before cruelty and conquest became its dominant theme—and I hope that those days will pass, as the right hon. Gentleman himself expressed the hope—we remember the days of Anglo-Japanese collaboration following upon Lord Lansdowne's Treaty of 1906. Lord Lansdowne's role has now been assumed by a statesman of no less eminence and ability, namely, Mr. John Foster Dulles, and we would desire from this side of the Committee to support the right hon. Gentleman in his tribute to his work and influence. We should now examine in broad outline Mr. Dulles' magnanimous settlement that he has negotiated with all concerned.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to the importance of bringing the Commonwealth countries, particularly Australia and New Zealand, into the picture. They must have misgivings about unrestricted Japanese re-armament in the East just as we have feelings about unrestricted German re-armament in the West, and undoubtedly these feelings are felt most by those who suffered most in the war in the Far East or in the West. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Pact which has been recently signed between the United States of America, Australia and New Zealand. This appears to have machinery the same as we have in the North Atlantic Treaty. There is to be a Council of Ministers.
  But the right hon. Gentleman has gone no further today in explaining how the United Kingdom was left out of this arrangement, and why, in fact, steps have not been taken to enlarge the Far Eastern Pact arrangement in much the same way as the Western arrangement—the one for the East, and the North Atlantic Treaty for the West. In the reply which is to be given to the debate, perhaps this matter can be carried farther than the right hon. Gentleman's statement on 19th April of this year, when he said, in a rather pathetic way, I thought:
  " It would not have been unwelcome to us if we had been included in the proposed pact…But the discussions did not so work out…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 2007.]

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  That does not seem to me to indicate that the right hon. Gentleman or Government policy are inspired with the requisite sense that it is vital to have joint arrangements in this area.
  In the case of the Western Pact we were able from the Opposition side to indicate that for at least three years before the North Atlantic Treaty Pact was contracted, we had recommended this course of action. I can refer to a speech which I had the honour to make as long as two years ago asking why further progress had not been made with the Pacific Pact. I said that we should bring together
  " the nations in the Far East in much the same way as we have brought them together in the West."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th May, 1949; Vol. 464, c. 1340.]
  Yet His Majesty's Government, through the Minister of State, only a year ago gave a totally negative answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Brigadier Smyth). That was on 19th July, 1950. Now we are rewarded by a statement made in another place by Lord Alexander, exactly a year after the statement of the Minister of State, that a Pacific Pact might be a big step in the direction of even more far-reaching arrangements in the Pacific.
  We trust, therefore, that His Majesty's Government will take a real lead in carrying a little further this matter of a pact of Far Eastern nations involved in the problems of today, and will consult with the older Dominions and be quite certain that British interests are thoroughly involved in this matter. We should certainly involve ourselves as far as possible with United States policy in the Far East.
  This is particularly important in view of the military portions of the Japanese Treaty. In view of the liberty given to Japan to re-arm, we are naturally vitally interested in the safeguards provided by the Treaty. We presume that the United States will arrange for the stationing of forces in Japan after the withdrawal of the occupation forces, and this is provided for in a 90-day delay period after the coming into force of the Treaty.
  I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what proposals His Majesty's Government will make at San Francisco for the disposal of the forfeited territories other than Korea and the Ruyukyus
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  and adjacent islands which the draft proposes shall be under United States trusteeship. We welcome the idea that the Ruyukyus, which stretch between Japan and Formosa, shall be occupied, but we should like to know what is to be the future of Southern Sakhalin, which has a vital strategic position in the area north of Japan. Further, I should like to ask, in view of the provisions in the Treaty for Japanese re-armament, whether the Japanese constitution is to be revised to enable her to have the sovereignty to make an independent defence force?
  Now I come to the right hon. Gentleman's observations about the economic problems arising from the Japanese Treaty. We are glad that Japan has initiated labour legislation, has been readmitted to the international Labour Office, and that trade unions have been established. However, I want to ask a specific question to which I hope we shall receive an answer: will Japan sign the Convention on Copyright Designs and Trade Marks, because the signature of such a Convention will make a difference to her in the fairly free opportunities for production which, despite all the observations of the right hon. Gentleman, the Treaty allows.
  If one studies the tables and statistics in the trade returns it will be seen that Japan is creeping back, like Western Germany, into world trade. The percentage is rising. Further, from the accounts we get, it is clear that the Japanese rayon industry will have reached a level of £500 million per annum by the end of 1951, which is close to the pre-war peak production.
  We must also remember that Japan is cut off from her easy markets in Korea and China which were always supposed to be the markets which would support the Japanese trade. It is also extremely doubtful whether the countries in South-East Asia, and some of those operating the Colombo Plan, will be suitable for Japanese products. There is no doubt, therefore, that the Government are right in saying, through the mouth of the President of the Board of Trade, that for the present we must retain our freedom to protect our economy, if necessary, against abnormal and injurious competition. Therefore, we support the proposal not to extend most-favoured-nation treatment to Japan at present.

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  We also approved what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the Convention of St. Germain-en-Laye, 1919, and the general provision about the Congo Basin Treaties. I should like the Committee to remember, particularly the Lancashire Members and those representing other industrial districts which will undoubtedly suffer in the future—and they had better get their minds ready for it—that the denial of most-favoured-nation treatment to Japan will not prevent Japanese competition in many of our overseas markets after a period.
  The freedom which His Majesty's Government say they are determined to retain for the present has been impaired by the non-discrimination announced by the President of the Board of Trade and accepted in recent years at the expense of preferential arrangements. Therefore, there is no doubt that this matter should be carefully canvassed, and I hope that hon. Members who represent industrial, commercial and textile interests will go thoroughly into this problem before we let it leave the Committee this afternoon.
  We were glad to see the paragraph about compensation in the Treaty, and every tribute should be paid to hon. and gallant Members on this side of the Committee who have done so much to bring this matter before public attention, especially the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood. The fact that there is a reference to compensation for prisoners of war must be laid to the credit of the House of Commons and its debates, and we should thank the Government for making this inclusion.
  However, when we come to the question of compensation under Article 16, the right hon. Gentleman has announced today that the total figure will be about £5 million. We understand that has to be spread over 200,000 members of the Allied Forces. I say quite categorically that we regard the total amount as entirely inadequate except as a gesture. I understand—I should like this to be corroborated—that the Americans have paid their ex-prisoners a dollar for every day in captivity. Suffering can be regarded as international and human, and we trust that the Government will be able to give reconsideration to the amount suggested under Article 16.
  Further, the fact that the principle of compensation is included in the treaty is
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  a useful precedent for future treaties. I hope this will be made known outside and that the Chinese, who have many of our prisoners in their hands, will recognise that in future the principle of compensation should be included in treaties of peace.
  Further, I should like to ask a purely business question: whether His Majesty's Government have any further proposals to make about compensation for chattels, for fair compensation for British nationals who remained in China in 1941 in accordance with the expressed wishes of His Majesty's Government, and who suffered loss or injury from Japanese forces? Foreign Secretary said that the draft is subject to possible modifications, and so I should like to appeal to his sense of fairness and to the softness of his heart.
  I understand that the Japanese Treaty will be signed in September. By then we may have good news about the success of the cease-fire negotiations in Korea. It is our ardent and oft-expressed wish that an honourably negotiated peace should be concluded in the Far East. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will accept, once and for all, that we, too, do not wish to see any more blood-letting. Clearly there is no doubt that there are no grounds for easy optimism in the Far Eastern situation or in the Eastern situation as a whole. Apart from the active fighting in Korea, order has not yet been reestablished in Malaya. nor victory won in Indo-China.
  While I am referring to the East, I should like to make a reference to the tension which exists at the present moment between India and Pakistan, which is immobilising two of the best armies in the East for no great international purpose. I am not going to be so foolish as to make any recommendations on this very difficult matter, but it is one which must be in the minds of His Majesty's Government, and upon which a solution is urgently and ardently desired.
  In the case of the Korea talks, the opening was sponsored by Mr. Malik. It is to be noted that his speech was timed almost immediately after the collapse of the Four Power talks in which the Under-Secretary took part with great pertinacity —and this time I hope not to be so offensive to him and to pay him a compliment. at least for his patience—in Paris. I

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  think that we should remember the earlier days of which the right hon. Gentleman rightly spoke, particularly when the United Nations acted with determination and Mr. Malik walked out of the room, and we have to envisage any peace move from that quarter with a great degree of scepticism which has been increased by our knowledge of the discussions in Paris.
  I should like to take this opportunity, in referring to the important international scene, to say that if there be any basis for a re-opening of talks, either in the Far East or the West—and there were some hopes mentioned by Mr. Malik himself—it would be the desire of His Majesty's Opposition that that opportunity should be taken by His Majesty's Government. While actively supporting His Majesty's Government in any attempt, whether in Korea or elswhere, to achieve an honourable peace, I should like emphatically to disagree with the words of the Minister of Defence which he used in Manchester on 2nd July, namely:
  " At the slightest sign, we should be only too willing to curtail our activities and return to the arts of peace."
  We now need much more than signs. We need practical evidence of the peaceful intention of others, and until we have made a greater effort than hitherto, we shall not have won the right to relax. This applies particularly to Western Europe, which I am coming to in my concluding remarks.
  I think that the best introduction to this theatre is perhaps what I have just said, that until we have partial re-armament and are strong—and the Foreign Secretary used strong words on that subject this afternoon—we shall not have the right to relax. Mr. Acheson in a speech at Detroit, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, gave us some figures of Soviet strength. Mr. Molotov has just made a speech which may be regarded as alarming or otherwise, according to our taste, in Poland. The Under-Secretary of State for War made a speech in Birmingham on 15th July last. He told us that the Soviet strength had risen as high as 215 divisions, that is over four million men. There are 22 divisions in the Russian zone of Germany, including 5,000 tanks—mobile forces.
  I would ask the Committee to notice this increase over the official figures—
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  and these are official figures I have given of a year ago, when it was suggested by the Minister of Defence on 26th July—exactly a year ago—that there were 175 Soviet divisions and 2,800,000 men. Now we are told it is 4 million and over 200 divisions. That makes one recall a statement by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), in his question to the Government of four-and-a-half years ago, when he asked:
  " Is it or is it not true that there are today more than 200 Soviet divisions on a war footing …? "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd October, 1946; Vol. 427, c. 1689–90.]
  These figures must be to any thinking person, considering the international situation, at least a spur to further effort on our part.
  That is why we ask the Government, in all seriousness, why this vital question of German re-armament has been so consistently delayed. We understood that agreement had been reached with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in the Brussels Conference of December, 1950, that there should be a German contribution. If hon. Gentlemen opposite say that they are not involved in this, I would remind them of the statement made by Mr. Bevin in the House of Commons on 29th November last year, which, I think, represents a moderate and common-sense view on this very great problem of German re-armament. He said:
  " If, unhappily, aggression were to take place in Europe, we are satisfied that its defence would have to take place as far East as possible, and that means that Western Germany must he involved; and if Western Germany is to be defended, it seems to us only fair and reasonable that the people of Western Germany should help in their own defence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1172.]
  The Foreign Secretary has been using language today pointing out how defenceless Japan is. He has told us of the magnanimity of the Japanese Peace Treaty and how the Japanese must now help to defend themselves. The same process should surely apply in the case of Germany. I do not under-estimate; I am not deaf or blind to the evidence of what has been described as Neo-Nazi influence which is growing up in Germany, particularly that of Remer and his movement, whose picture we see in one of our periodical newspapers and whose speeches we can read second-hand.

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  I am aware of the lead given by the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who have shown their sympathy with the French desire to include German units within the European army and so avoid the worst dangers of revived German nationalism. I feel certain that that is the way to proceed. I know the objections felt both on this side of the Committee and by hon. Members opposite to German re-armament, and it is clear that to make progress simply for progress' sake would be undesirable; but progress in this matter must be made pari passu at the same moment as progress in our own re-armament and progress in the political sphere in Germany.
  I should be greatly obliged if in the Government reply we could hear if some contractual treaty is to take the place of the statute, and if that difference will make the issue more factual. We must try to marry the Pleven Plan and the Petersburgh Plan and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation machinery, as the point has now been reached when Germany must share the burden of our defence, provided that her contribution can be regulated under General Eisenhower's European command.
  In view of the many other speeches, I will conclude my remarks by summing up like this: We need, in our view on this side of the Committee, unity in policy both among the free and allied nations and in the House of Commons. From the form that the right hon. Gentleman has shown, there is no reason why this unity should exclude criticism or lively interchanges. I think that we are likely to have that. Indeed, we might well be healthier if our foreign affairs debates, when they are on controversial subjects, got back to the same sort of temper and atmosphere as in the days of Fox, Wilberforce, Sheridan and other great leaders of our country in the past.
  The truth is, whether we have peace or not, the cause we are all fighting for, which is to regain our freedom, is greater than the extent of any differences which can be shown on the Floor of the House. The cause is not so much peace, especially peace at any price, but life itself. We could not live freely and happily under the circumstances of a Communistic dictatorship, and we should therefore take the advantage of this solemn debate today,
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  which on the whole must be an advantage of a joint character, to dedicate ourselves. afresh to the common cause of the free democracies.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. Mayhew: The Foreign Secretary spoke at some length about the lessons that we can gain from the war in Korea for our future policies towards Russia and China. I should like to make one or two further comments on this subject, and to begin with the light which the Korean war throws on the capacity of these Communist countries to, misunderstand and misinterpret the intentions of the Western Powers. This may seem an academic subject, but I believe it is overlooked too much; it has a great bearing on our present and future policies.
  If we take first of all the original act of aggression—the unleashing of the North Korean forces against the South by the Soviet Union—surely, it is hard to believe that if the Russians had known at that time that the United Nations would intervene with such strength and determination they would have done what they did. It is much more likely that they misjudged the intentions of the United States and the United Nations, as, indeed, did many competent observers in the West who believed that the Americans had "written off" South Korea.
  When my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary congratulated the United Nations for the part they have played since that time in Korea, I think we should remember how much better it would have been if the intentions of the United Nations and the Americans had been plainly known in advance, so that, at least, we should have had a chance of altogether avoiding war in Korea. Both sides can learn from that incident, Russia more than ourselves; but, we, too, can learn, because there are other parts of the world now where the intentions and commitments of the Western Powers are probably not clear to the Chinese and Communist leaders. I am thinking of Yugoslavia, Indo-China, Formosa, Persia and a number of other countries where uncertainty may exist.
  Of course, it is not always possible or wise to be too specific about these things, or to go beyond the obligation we all have as members of the United Nations, but there is a strong case on balance for

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  the Western Powers clarifying their commitments on a joint basis. I should like to see the deputies of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in London considering this, and seeing if they cannot come to a clearer collective definition of our position.
  It is not only clearness on our commitments that matters but the fact that we have the military power to honour them. This is, I suppose, a maiden speech, and I do not mean to be unduly controversial. I look forward on some other occasion to discussing the follies of the pamphlet "One Way Only." All of us hope passionately that there will be a cease fire in Korea and that a chain of events will take place which will enable the Western Powers to disarm with safety. But surely Korea is an absolute proof, if anyone needs it, that any realistic peace policy today absolutely demands as an essential element a substantial armed force at the service of the United Nations.
  Even before aggression took place one heard talk about the Russians abhorring hot war methods and that the real danger was of cold war aggression. It was pointed out that we were in the happy position of having no choice to make between guns and butter. We could overlook the guns and fight Communism with the butter. Surely that is now shown to be a dangerous delusion. And surely one powerful cause of Chinese readiness to talk peace now—she obviously wishes a cease fire whether we succeed in getting one or not—is the clear knowledge that the United Nations are not only strong but are becoming stronger day by day by great strides. If we weaken now and lose our resolution and cut our proposed arms expenditure, I believe it would be to prolong the suffering and agony in Korea and increase the risks of a new world war and new local wars at different places. That, I believe, is the first lesson, in addition to those the Foreign Secretary mentioned, which can be learned from Korea. There must be no future misunderstandings, no doubt over the precise nature of our commitments or about our readiness to honour them, nor about having the military strength to carry them through.
  The lesson of Korea should also spur us on towards closer and more effective unity of the Western World. Mention
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  has been made of the progress made under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Much, of course, has been done, but how much remains to be done. It is absolutely wrong that the branches of the Organisation should be scattered over the free world, the standing group in Washington, the Deputies of the Foreign Ministers in London and the headquarters of General Eisenhower in Paris. It is wrong that there should be no method to finance jointly the defence efforts of the free countries. It is wrong that the Netherlands should have a naval programme which does not conform to the real needs of the joint defence plan. It is wrong that the French should not be constructing the airfields we need, and which they undertook to construct under our joint effort. And if there is any defence of the adoption of the.280 rifle, I have not heard it yet. These are things which should be done in our march towards a greater unity of the West.
  Korea also shows us that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is not the only basis for unity and collective security. It has shown that we must not despair of the United Nations, despite its shortcomings, as a basis for collective security. It is clear that it has a whole number of faults. It is slow, cumbrous, and with very uncertain political control over military operations. Moreover, as the Americans themselves would agree, too, there is so much power and influence in the hands of the United States at Lake Success as to constitute an unhealthy, unbalancing factor. But, with all these faults, United Nations has done great things. It is worth noting that, in spite of all the bitterness and the fighting in Korea, the Organisation has not broken up. Russia is still a member, China is wanting to join, and it seems to be clear that besides dreary debates and platitudinous resolutions which cover up so much of the work of the United Nations, there is something real and vital there, something on which to build a force for peace. There is an unsuspected combining force in the United Nations, which has more political value than is always appreciated. I hope very much that the Government will build on what is good in the United Nations—will remember, for instance, that if we get a cease fire in Korea then it will be a constructive move, as part of fair negotiations, to have Communist China back on the Security

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  Council. Let the Government not be cynical or defeatist about the United Nations.
  All these reflections were suggested by the misunderstanding which clearly took place in connection with the original act of aggression in Korea. But it was not only in connection with the original act of aggression, that the Communist leaders misunderstood the intention of the Western Powers. China's intervention was partly motivated by misunderstandings—by a false but genuinely—held belief that the United Nations under American leadership was planning aggression against her, that the United Nations were not only concerned to liberate Korea but sooner or later they would also go over the frontier. I am not saying that the Chinese might not also have welcomed what then appeared to be an opportunity of throwing our forces out of Korea. It is not inconsistent for Marxists to combine aggressiveness in themselves with a genuine apprehension of aggressiveness from the other party. I do say that fear was part of the motive of Chinese intervention.
  It does not exonerate them from blame for what they did. If the Chinese, like the Russians, insist upon isolating themselves from the rest of the world, filling themselves up with half-baked Marxist ideas about the intentions of the West and paying too much attention to unrepresentative opinions in the Western World, on the extreme Left as well as on the extreme Right, we cannot exonerate them from blame for the disasters which come from their ignorance. There is plenty of evidence that that fear was there. It reinforces the belief that Communists have a greater capacity for misunderstanding the intentions of the Western Powers than we sometimes give them credit for.
  It is all too easy to assume that these people are cool and objective observers of the world scene, that they are entirely cynical about their propaganda, when they talk about the aggressive intentions of America and Britain against the Soviet Union. On balance, I feel certain that the opposite is nearer the truth and that the Communist leaders. with all their ability and intelligence—within their limitations—have a profoundly subjective and ill-informed view of the West and of the intentions and motives of the
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  Western Powers. I feel that their propaganda is rather a true reflection of their twisted minds.
  I am not saying that this means that all their attitudes and acts conform with Marxist principles. The fact that we in Britain are a Christian country does not mean that all the acts and attitudes of our people and of our Government conform with Christian principles, but we are not cynical about our Christian beliefs. They colour our attitudes to a great extent. When the Russians talk, as Mr. Molotov did on Saturday last, of the aggressive intentions of the Western Powers, it is dangerous and wrong to write that off as sheer cynicism and not as including a degree of genuine apprehension.
  There is thus a real danger, in the state of tension and mistrust that exists in the world today, that we may make some perfectly legitimate move, in Germany, for instance, which will have a profoundly sinister connotation for the Russians and the Communist leaders, and will lead them into the kind of aggressive action that we saw in the Chinese intervention in Korea, under the mistaken impression that war is being forced upon them. It is dangerous, I admit, to talk as I am doing. Once we admit an element of fear in the motivation of the Communist leaders, people will automatically jump to the assumption that it is the strong policies of the West which are causing tensions in the world. Of course, the reverse of it is true. These policies are dictated by the Russian policy of expansion and non-co-operation. The idea that our policies have an aggressive intention is purely a figment of their own suspiciousness.
  If these views sound academic today, I believe that they will sound very much less academic in the years that lie ahead. We should consider this factor very carefully. As soon as we begin to catch up with the military strength of the Communist world, and then to surpass it, as we shall in due course, I believe that this factor will become of much greater importance. The danger of Russian misunderstanding of our weakness then becomes less, but the danger of misunderstanding our great strength becomes a great deal more serious.
  What should the Government do, bearing in mind these factors? The first

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  thing is to acknowledge that this problem exists, and to accept it as one of the factors that must be taken into consideration in framing our policies, in connection for instance with German re-armament, with plans in relation to subversive operations in Europe, in relation to Formosa, and to other moves that are bound to come eventually in relation to liberating parts of Eastern Europe. We should bear in mind that there may be some acts of policy which would strengthen the Western case from the military point of view, but only at a disproportionate cost in increasing the tension in the world, and inflaming the illogical fears and suspicions of the Communist leaders.
  This is, I repeat, a dangerous line to take, especially at a time when our prior job is to increase the strength and unity of the West. I recognise that many sincere lovers of peace may resist this argument altogether, particularly in the United States of America. The very qualities which have enabled the United States to be such a tower of strength in world affairs since the war—self-confidence, dynamism, uninhibited directness of approach to the world's problems—make it very hard for them to accept policies of patience and restraint. I think that they themselves would be the first to agree with this.
  It would be quite natural if there were to be disagreements between the United States and her Allies on subjects of this kind. In those circumstances, most British people would, I feel, expect the Government to stick to their policy of close alliance with the United States but to put the arguments for restraint and moderation in the most vigorous possible way. This job of persuasion cannot be done by blackmail; it can only be done by people who have a genuine desire for friendship and co-operation with the United States.
  Besides framing the right policies, the Government have the duty to make known to the Chinese and Russian leaders that those policies are designed for peace and involve no aggressive intentions against them. I am bound to say, looking back upon it, that I think the Government are too shy of talking to the Russian leaders in conference. Some of the old reasons against holding high-level talks are no longer valid. Today we have
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  sufficient unity in the West to make it possible and sufficient strength to be able to talk on a reasonable basis with the Russians. Let us not always leave it to the Russians to take the initiative in these matters. Let us use every possible channel—radio, personal contact, public statements and so on—to insist upon the peaceful nature of our huge re-armament programme.
  There are other factors. The question of mutual aid is infinitely worth while for its own sake, but as a contribution to peace it works far more slowly and less directly than is sometimes appreciated. The two basic principles are first the strength and unity of the Western World to build up the United Nations in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and to press on with our arms programme.
  The second principle is considerable patience and imagination in our diplomacy and an infinite capacity for putting ourselves into the other man's shoes, whatever the provocation, and looking at the problem through his eyes—not necessarily to concede what he wants to see, but so as to make it perfectly certain that the impact on him of our policy is the impact that we want and not something totally different.
  If we pay regard to these principles we shall have the best chance for the future of avoiding catastrophe.
  5.20 p.m.
  Mr. Duncan Sandys: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) in his discussion of the various problems he has raised with regard to the Far Eastern situation. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) said, the Foreign Secretary carried out a complete tour d'horizon,a review of the world, and, again, although I am keenly interested in many of the topics which he raised, particularly the problems of the re-armament of Germany and the Japanese Treaty, in view of the great number of hon. Members who wish to speak I propose to confine myself to one subject only, and that is the problem of Spain.
  In his speech, the Foreign Secretary said that His Majesty's Government did not consider that the association of Spain in the Western system of defence would contribute towards strengthening the free democratic peoples. I wish to examine

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  objectively and dispassionately the issue which has been raised by the negotiations between the United States Government and the Spanish Government. I hope that other hon. Members who discuss the same topic will endeavour to do the same, because I feel that it is only in that spirit and in that atmosphere that we can hope to arrive at any kind of balanced conclusion. Unfortunately, charges and counter-charges are at the present moment being hurled backwards and forwards across the Atlantic. This controversy and storm over Spain can do no good to anybody except those who stand to benefit by dissension between the free peoples of the world.
  We are told officially that these negotiations are still no more than exploratory talks, but nonetheless it is quite clear that accord has been reached in principle between the United States Government and the Spanish Government on the broad lines of an agreement. The proposed agreement is that Spain will give the United States naval and air bases and that in return the United States will give Spain economic aid and assistance in strengthening her defences.
  It seems also from the statements that have been made that talks have been going on for quite a number of months between the State Department, the Foreign Office and the Quai d'Orsay on this question. In spite of these long negotiations, Mr. Acheson had the other day to admit that deadlock has been reached. The American Government was thus faced with the issue as to whether they should abandon their project for a pact with Spain or whether they should go ahead alone, despite the objections of the Governments of two of their principal allies, a very unpleasant choice to have to make. I am sure that all of us believe sincerely that the United States Government is as conscious as any of us of the supreme importance of maintaining unity among the members of the North Atlantic alliance, and that it was only with extreme reluctance and purely on military grounds—certainly not on political grounds—that the United States Government came to the decision to go ahead alone.
  The United States Chiefs of Staff make more public speeches than ours do, and so we have some idea of what is in their minds and what advice they have been
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  giving to their Government. From the public statements made by American military leaders, it is clear that for a long time they have been advising their Government that it was of the greatest strategic importance to obtain naval and air bases in Spain and in the Spanish islands in the Atlantic and in the Mediterranean.
  I do not think that there can be two opinions about the strategic importance of obtaining the use of those bases. There is no doubt that these facilities would be of immense value in the event of war to meet the attack upon allied shipping which must be expected from our knowledge of the large ocean-going submarine fleet which the Soviet Union has built up. Equally, from the standpoint of land operations it is clear that the possession of these facilities in Spain might in certain circumstances be of very great significance.
  Supposing, for example, that the Western Front were forced in and that the Red Army were able to over-run Germany and France, there is no doubt that to retain the Iberian Peninsula would be of capital importance. If in such an eventuality we could at least retain this large bridgehead in Europe from which a counter-offensive might at some future date be made, it might alter the whole course of the conflict.
  If, on the other hand, the Allied armies were forced to evacuate the whole European mainland they would be faced with the proposition, about which we know so much ourselves, of having to fight their way back with all the perils, delays and complications involved in launching an amphibious operation against a strongly held enemy coast.
  I trust that these bases will never need to be used for a war at all, and that if there should be a war it will never come to the point of having to fall back on to one bridgehead in the corner of Europe. Nevertheless I am sure that any wise strategist would insist upon this measure of re-insurance, for that is what it is. It has not, I am sure, crossed our minds that the negotiations between America and Spain mean that the Americans have not the intention of putting up with us an all-out defence of the Western Front in Germany. If there were any possible doubts on that score, they must surely have been removed by the explicit declaration made by Mr. Acheson from

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  which my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden quoted a little earlier.
  Also, we have had a very clear and precise undertaking from the United States Administration that any arrangement which they make with Spain will not in any way interfere with the priority to be accorded to the delivery of arms and equipment to their N.A.T.O. Allies in Europe. Now that we see the enormous expansion of American industry, there is no doubt that even if Spain has to take her place behind the other European countries in the queue, it need not be so very long before she would be able to get substantial supplies from American production of, at any rate, a large range of weapons and equipment.
  The main objection which has been made is not on military grounds—I do not believe there is any great controversy about the military arguments—but on political grounds. It is said that since the Western alliance is based upon democracy and exists for the defence of our free institutions, it would be contrary to the principles and the spirit of that alliance for a country which is not democratic to be associated with it. That is an understandable first reaction, but it is very hard to see how His Majesty's Government and the French Government can officially put forward those objections, having regard to the fact that only a few weeks ago they made the announcement of their decision to make substantial loans to the Yugoslav Government for precisely the same purpose; that is to say, in order to strengthen Yugoslavia's economy, and to assist her in her re-armament.
  There are, of course, profound differences between the systems of government in Yugoslavia and in Spain, and it would be quite individious and extremely difficult to make a comparison of the two regimes. I certainly do not propose to attempt it this afternoon. One thing, however, that is perfectly clear—and I think that both Governments would be among the first to recognise it themselves —is that neither of the two systems in any way resembles anything which could be described as a democracy in the ordinary sense of the word.
  We have supported this loan to Yugoslavia. I personally have for many months urged assistance for Yugoslavia. But if there are no political objections to
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  lending money and giving support for the rehabilitation and defence of Yugoslavia, I cannot see how objections on political grounds can be raised against similar action by the United States in the case of Spain. It may well be that Yugoslavia will prove to be a precious island of resistance in the Balkans.
  In certain circumstances Spain may prove to be an equally vital bastion of defence in the West. There is one difference worth mentioning between the loans, to Yugoslavia and the American aid to Spain, and that is that, in the case of Yugoslavia we asked for and obtained nothing in return, whereas in the case of Spain there are valuable military facilities which are being received as a counterpart.
  In some of the discussions that have taken place there has been a good deal of confusion of thought and of expression. One thing that has been referred to again and again is the text of the Treaty of the North Atlantic alliance, in which it is stated that the North Atlantic alliance exists for the defence of freedom and democracy. There is, in my opinion—which I think will be shared in all parts of the House—no question of admitting either Yugoslavia or Spain to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, still less to. the Council of Europe, for the simple reason that both of those institutions are based upon democracy and upon the maintenance of institutions which guarantee to the citizens of Member States basic human rights. It would, therefore, be quite inappropriate to think of admitting either country to N.A.T.O. or to the Council of Europe.
  But that is not what the American Government is proposing. It is true that initially they did envisage that Spain should be brought into the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. There is no doubt that that is what they at first envisaged. But that idea has been dropped, partly because of the justifiable objections of their European Allies, and partly—and I think one should mention this, too—because of the reluctance of the Spanish Government to accept the obligation to send troops abroad, which would be involved in membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. That has been dropped, and what we now have in its place is a proposal for a bilateral pact between the United States Government and the Spanish Government. In my

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  opinion this change removes any legal or constitutional objections which there may have been to this arrangement.
  Nor are there, I submit, any objections from the point of view of efficient organisation to a Member State of N.A.T.O. having at the same time a bilateral defence pact with another European country outside the N.A.T.O. For instance, Great Britain and France have bilateral pacts with Turkey. Turkey is a European country and she is not yet a Member of N.A.T.O.; but that has raised no legal or constitutional difficulties. I therefore submit that, from the legal and organisational standpoint, there are no objections to this pact.
  In passing, I should like to take this opportunity to express my satisfaction at the statement made by the Foreign Secretary the other day, in which he assured the support of His Majesty's Government for the admission of Turkey to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
  Having examined the military, organisational and legal aspects of this problem, I now come to what is undoubtedly the main, and perhaps only really valid, objection to the proposed pact, and that is its political repercussions in Continental Europe. I am not thinking of its repercussions in this country. I think that we can take it. I am thinking of the political repercussions of this pact in Continental Europe. Let us be frank about this. There is no doubt whatsoever that this pact between the United States and Spain will be used by Soviet propagandists as a Heaven-sent piece of ammunition in their general political campaign, and it may create increased difficulties for the democratic parties in countries such as France and Italy, where they are holding their own with difficulty against the Communist challenge.
  I am trying completely to be fair in my statement of the problem. I think that that is undoubtedly a very serious objection. But are we to accept that as conclusive? It would lead us into very great difficulty. Are we to refrain from taking the measures for defence which we consider necessary out of the fear that our action may be misrepresented? If we were to do that we would certainly be handing on a plate a bloodless victory to our opponents. The essence of
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  democracy is to trust the intelligence and judgment of the people, and to have confidence that if the problems are fully discussed truth will prevail.
  If we are afraid to tell the facts to the people, and afraid to take the action which those facts demand, then we are getting ourselves on to the slippery slope of half truths and half measures. That is the surest way to undermine the very foundations of the democracy we seek to defend. I submit to the Committee that this issue must be decided on its merits. To allow policy to be dictated by fear of Communist propaganda would be to accept a major defeat in the cold war.
  Another objection which has been made, and which is understandable, is that this American aid will act as a kind of powerful blood infusion into the Spanish system; and that it will strengthen the Franco régime and prolong its life. It would be foolish to deny that after the years of ostracism the prestige which will come from having concluded a pact with the United States will undoubtedly raise the stock in Spain of General Franco. There is no doubt also that the discontent of the Spanish people will diminish to the extent that this American aid is reflected in improved economic conditions. On the other hand, the knowledge that the rising standard of living was due to assistance from the great American democracy and that the continuance of that aid was dependent upon the continuance of American goodwill, together with increased contacts with the outside world, all this would inevitably have a growing influence upon the outlook of the Spanish people and Government.
  The policy of putting Spain into quarantine, which has been very fully tried out, has proved a complete failure. It has had exactly the opposite effect to what was intended. It has had the effect of rallying great numbers of Spaniards, who were by no means sympathetic to the régime, to General Franco, for the simple reason that they resented what they regarded as interference from outside in their domestic affairs.
  Judging from this past experience, it seems to me that the establishment of more normal relations between the outside world and Spain and the infiltration of democratic ideas which would be

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  bound to result, are much more likely to bring about changes in the system of Government in Spain, such as so many of us desire, than would the renewal of a policy of enforced isolation.
  Finally, in judging this issue, it is well to remember that, whether we like it or not, the United States Government have made up their minds to go through with this pact, which will usher in a new phase in the relations between America and Spain. The choice before us and the other Western European nations is whether we should sulk in our tents or whether, despite certain misgivings, we should try our best to make this new American initiative succeed. It is not an easy choice. However, in coming to our decision we have, at any rate, the reassuring thought that no new policy towards Spain could be less successful than the one hitherto pursued
  5.44 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Tomorrow morning the millions of newspaper readers will read with interest of the warm support which the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) has given to the American proposal for some measure of agreement with General Franco. The right hon. Member was mistaken, however, in brushing aside the repercussions in this country. He clearly appreciates the repercussions in Western Europe, but he does not appreciate them here.
  I tell the right hon. Member that such a proposal would be completely unacceptable to millions of people in this country, who would doubt the worthiness of an aim whose successful accomplishment called for the obtaining of so undesirable an ally. I think that certainly all hon. Members on this side agreed with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary when he said that, however strategically advantageous such an agreement might be, it would from the psychological point of view be most undesirable. That is the viewpoint of many people.
  I regarded the speech which we heard from my right hon. Friend this afternoon as perhaps the most acceptable speech on foreign affairs that we have heard from the Government Front Bench since 1945, in spite of the reservations I have about parts of it. I am, however, unhappy about the position of the draft Japanese Peace
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  Treaty. I want to emphasise that in speaking on this question today I am doing so at the request of a number of Members on this side of the Committee who represent textile constituencies in Lancashire and Cheshire. But they are not, of course, to be taken as being necessarily committed as individuals to the point of view which I am expressing.
  We regard this matter as important, not only because we have the welfare of Lancashire at heart, but because we believe that upon the prosperity of Lancashire depends the economic stability of the country and the effectiveness of the rôle which it can play in world affairs. We appreciate the difficulties with which my right hon. Friend and the drafters of the Treaty have had to contend. My right hon. Friend himself mentioned a number of those difficulties. We appreciate, too. that the Treaty represents. at any rate some progress in the direction of curbing Japanese competition. I think it is good that Japan's rights under the Congo Basin Treaties and the Convention of St. Germain should be restricted in the way that is being done in the draft Treaty. On the other hand, I think it will probably turn out to be more a gesture than an effective piece of action. We appreciate also that certain efforts have been made in Japan to raise the standard of living and to make Japan a less dangerous competitor than in the past.
  Nevertheless, in spite of that, we still regard the Treaty with the gravest disquiet. The President of the Board of Trade, in a statement to the House on 12th July, appeared to consider that the two safeguards in the Treaty were, first, the expanding world economy, and second, the fact that Japan had undertaken to observe fair practices in her commercial activities. But I wonder just where we are to find this expanding world economy, to which the President of the Board of Trade referred only a fortnight ago? If we were to ask exporters and merchants in Lancashire whether they believed that there was at the moment an expanding world economy, we should get a very dusty answer.
  It is, of course, completely irrefutable that the final solution of this problem of Japanese competition depends upon an expanding world economy, but at present we have not got that expanding world economy. On 17th July, for example, the

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  City Editor of the "News Chronicle" told us that:
  " The state of trade is not satisfactory "
  and that that remark applied particularly to the textile trades. Three days later, the "Manchester Guardian" told us that
  " Traders are not as confident as they were, say, six months ago, that the total supply of goods available for export can in fact be disposed of satisfactorily abroad."
  In these circumstances, the effects of cheap Japanese competition are already becoming felt and could become serious. A week ago, the "Textile Mercury," a reputable cotton trade newspaper, told us that merchants were beginning to find it extremely difficult to sell their goods in Pakistan and Indonesia, which, of course, are important sources of economic outlet for Japan. I do not think there is at the moment sufficient evidence of this expanding world economy to justify us in giving Japan the opportunity to expand her markets in the way that she will be able to do as soon as the Treaty is signed.
  Let us look at this expanding world economy from the point of view of Japan herself. I was glad that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) touched on this point. Japan's criminal behaviour in the last 20 years has meant that many of the markets of the world have been closed to her goods. She cannot sell her goods as easily as she could to China, Russia or Korea.
  There is now an added difficulty. Under the terms of the Treaty, it is to be left to a subsequent Japanese Government to decide whether she will recognise the Nationalist Government of Chiang Kaishek, or the Government of the Chinese People's Republic. Suppose that under pressure from the United States Japan is virtually forced into recognising the Nationalist Government of Chiang Kaishek. That would mean that the outlets available to Japan would be further restricted and once again she would be driven to expanding her markets and penetrating into markets which we would like to keep for goods produced in this country.
  That threat is already apparent. It is very difficult to get exact figures of the progress so far made towards the complete rehabilitation of the Japanese cotton and textile industry, but it seems fairly certain from all the sources available that,
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  taking the cotton industry and the rayon and other artificial fibre industries in Japan as a whole, production is running at about one-third to a half of what it was before the war and is growing rapidly.
  I hope that before Japan is allowed to expand as completely as she will be able when sovereignty is conceded to her, we shall renew discussions with the United States and make sure that America will use her influence to prevent the expansion of the Japanese textile industry at the expense of the interests of this country. I say that because there is a suspicion among many people in this country, particularly in Lancashire, that America is anxious to build up the Japanese textile industry because that would help to give Japan a viable economy without competing with America and at the same time —and this is important—provide an outlet for American raw cotton which at some stage in the future may be extremely useful to the United States.
  I am afraid that at this time Lancashire is remembering what happened in February of this year when America increased her exports of raw cotton to Japan and at the same time reduced her exports of raw cotton to France and the United Kingdom. It seems, if one looks at the figures of American raw cotton sales over the past four months, that there has been a steady expansion of sales to the Far East and at the same time a reduction in the sales of raw cotton to France and the United Kingdom.
  What is going to happen during the next few months it is impossible to forecast at present. We shall not really know for about a month, until we discover what is to be America's production for the next four months and what allocations she will be able to make; but in the meantime, I hope we shall press the United States for an assurance that Lancashire is not to be starved for the benefit of the Japanese textile industry.
  I now come to the second plank in the argument of the President of the Board of Trade, that Japan will observe fair practices in the future. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden rightly referred to Japan's readmission to the I.L.O., to the legislation she has introduced for regulating working conditions and the establishment of a trade union movement in Japan. I believe it may be

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  that the establishment of a trade union movement will prove to be the most important consideration in this respect. because it is only the organised workers in Japan who can withstand the pressure from the industrialists to reduce living and working standards once the occupation forces are removed.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade, speaking in Manchester last week was, I thought. a little naïve when he said:
  " It was hoped that Japan would realise that it would be to her own advantage not to indulge in unfair competition."
  That is taken from the "Manchester Guardian" of 20th July. But I cannot see why Japan and Japanese industrialists should consider that it is not to Japan's advantage to take part in activities of that kind. I wish to refer the Committee to two sources of information on that score. In "The Times", on 2nd July, we find this report from the Tokyo correspondent, under the heading, "Labour standards in Japan":
  " Japanese industrialists have been heard to state recently that since the British Government has concurred fully in America's ideas of a peace settlement, there is no longer any need to tolerate nonsense about wages, working hours and so on.
  For the first time since the surrender a private organisation—the Tokyo Chamber of Commerce—has urged that daily working hours be increased from eight to 10, that restrictions on overtime and holiday work be 'eased,' that conditions of employment for children and female workers be revised,' and that annual leave with pay be shortened.
  Management groups, however, now go farther and demand that the law relating to labour standards be rescinded. This law not only protected Japanese workers but also ensured that the British Commonwealth and other countries would not again be confronted by competition made possible by the employment of something closely approaching slave labour."
  Lest hon. Members should think that was a flash in the pan, a similar story was filed by Mr. Richard Hughes of the "Sunday Times" on 3rd June this year in which he stressed the campaign in Japan to destroy Occupation labour standards, to increase the working hours of Japanese workers, to abolish overtime, and to restore the big family combine monopolies.
  I hope my right hon. Friend will make it clear, especially when he replies tonight, that the Government will press for more
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  positive safeguards in the Treaty and will raise at the International Labour Organisation any attempt to evade the obligations Japan is supposed to be assuming. The President of the Board of Trade referred to "appropriate action" to safeguard British industry. It may be that he was referring to the withholding of the Most-Favoured-Nation treatment in Japan, but is there no other method for protecting workers in the textile industries, in the potteries and other industries in this country?
  Many of us question whether the time has arrived for the restoration of sovereignty to Japan. We are wondering from the evidence that has come to us whether Japan is yet sufficiently reformed to take her part as a sovereign nation in world affairs. I wish to refer to another article in the "Sunday Times" by Mr. Richard Hughes in which he referred to Mr. Ichiro Hatoyama, the leader of the Liberal Party, who is almost certain to be Prime Minister when the Japanese Treaty is signed. He visited Europe in 1938 and had cordial discussions with Hitler and Mussolini and went back to Japan preaching the virtues of the Nazis and Fascists and the coming desirable defeat of the effete British. In one article—and I think this is most apposite to this discussion—he said on his return to Japan:
  " Japan should closely follow the Nazi method of handling labour problems. The noble Fuehrer's totalitarian principles are closely woven into the labour control laws, which prevent class strife."
  That was written by the leader of a great party in Japan, a party with influence, which may well have power in that country to which we are preparing to hand over the powers of a sovereign State.
  I understand there is a Japanese proverb which says:
  " Why remember the earthquake when the ground has fallen asleep and the nightingale sings again? "
  In this connection I suggest that the earthquake took place in Lancashire in the days when Japanese competition, based on slave labour, brought the textile industry to the verge of bankruptcy, and the nightingale singing today is the Japanese nightingale which, if I may change the metaphor must be laughing up his sleeve at the shortsighted folly of the United States in putting forward these proposals.

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  I suggest to my right hon. Friends that it is their duty, when they go to the San Francisco Peace Conference, to express there the doubts that I have expressed this afternoon, and to ensure that every possible safeguard is made available so that Lancashire prosperity and world stability may not be imperilled.
  6.0 p.m.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I cannot follow the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood), throughout the whole of his speech, but I agree with a great deal of what he has said, and I fully realise, as I am sure do many other hon. Members on this side of the Committee who also have Lancashire interests, the great dangers inherent in the draft Peace Treaty as at present worded. I hope that the House will do everything it can to see, as has already been said by the Foreign Secretary, that the Treaty is not in its final form and that desirable alterations are made so that our industries will be properly and adequately protected.
  I wish now to make a few observations on the Russian situation as I see it, and on some of the reasons which have led to the present situation, as well as to say something which may perhaps assist us to understand a little more clearly what is happening, what has been happening and what is likely to happen in the future.
  It is essential that we should remember that this policy of expansionism by Russia is nothing new. It has been going on for 200 years. The only real difference since the Bolshevik Revolution is that the sights have been raised to the extent that, in addition to the extension of frontiers, the final collapse of the whole democratic world and the substitution of Communism has been added to the old Czarist policy.
  It is also interesting to remember that during the course of these 200 years, wherever there has been resistance to this expansion, the expansion has ceased. It is nothing new, it has been happening recently and it has happened over the last 200 years. That is the lesson which we must realise, and it is the lesson of Russian history which we must remember in all our plans and thoughts.
  It was a very great thing and a very great service that Mr. Acheson did to the world yesterday when he stressed that
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  the ending of the war in Korea was not by any means the end of our troubles. In fact it may quite likely be a beginning of new troubles. After all, the ending of the Berlin blockade, the ending of the conflict in Greece, did not mean the end of our problems so far as Russia is concerned.
  Therefore, I most sincerely say that we must be very careful and watch as to which pawn will be moved next, because it is the pawns which are being moved now, and the main pieces are remaining stationary on the board. In that relation, I wish to say a few words about Germany. It is my belief that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the newly re-armed Eastern German State may be used as the next pawn and that a "liberation" of Western Germany may be contemplated.
  Let us face the fact that the Germans passionately desire the unification of Germany, but the Western Germans desire that unification not by the conquest by Eastern Germany but by properly conducted democratic elections, and everything that His Majesty's Government can do in that direction to bring it about should be done. We all deplore the break-down of the Four-Power talks in Paris, but let us pray and hope that that is not necessarily the end. Anyone who realises what has been going on there must be very grateful that when Moses came down from the mountain with the Tables of the Law, he did not have to put those proposals for approval to a conference such as that which took place recently in Paris.
  As one of those who had the honour to help to resist German aggression in the past, I am the very last person to want to see the re-armament of Germany unless I passionately believe it to be right. There was a time when I thought that the only good German was a dead German. I have rather modified my views since then. I think it is wrong, in view of the possible danger to Western Germany, to ask only American and British soldiers to assist in the defence of people whom they have so recently themselves been fighting, and that it is only reasonable to suggest that the Germans should be asked to help to defend themselves.
  In relation to this subject, I would deprecate seeing the resurgence of the

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  German General Staff or of anything in the nature of a large air force. Nor do I see the slightest necessity for coastal cruisers or motor boats. But I see the most vital necessity for ground troops as an integrated part of a European army under General Eisenhower's command. To those who have fears about German re-armament, I ask whether the French proposal for a European army is not the very safeguard which we are seeking in order to ensure that a German army shall never again become a menace to peace. That is surely the answer to anyone who has fears of that nature.
  I would refer, in this matter of pawns and their moves, to the recent blaring of the Moscow radio against Yugoslavia, suggesting that Yugoslavia now has designs on Albania. Is that not very reminiscent of the Hitler technique, and slightly reminiscent also of our Foreign Secretary when dealing with supplementary questions? A perfectly constructive Question often produces a provocative answer from the Foreign Secretary, and the Member who has asked the question is accused of introducing party politics. That is precisely what is happening at the moment in the case of Yugoslavia.
  I say most earnestly to the Government that it is vital that we should make it crystal clear to Russia what would be our reaction and the reaction of the United Nations should Yugoslavia be attacked. We made the mistake with Hitler. There was no more surprised man than Hitler when we took action on his march into Poland, because we had allowed him to do so much without raising a finger or making clear what would happen if he did march on Poland. We must not make that mistake again in the case of Yugoslavia.
  On the subject of radio, I deprecate the Foreign Secretary's words about the foreign propaganda broadcasts, and that the money for them should have been withdrawn or reduced. I believe that none of the money that is to be spent on defence could be spent more valuably than in improving not only the quality but the quantity of our broadcasts to satellite countries.
  I have spoken to people who speak Bulgarian and Czechoslovakian, and they are horrified at what is being sent out to
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  those countries by the B.B.C., a very great deal of it with a Communist bias. I have been told by people who speak those languages that that is happening, and I urge the Under-Secretary to get hold of some of those scripts and look at them, and see if there is any truth or not in what I am saying. I am not vouching for it, I am only saying that it is what I have heard, and it is extremely disturbing.
  I turn to the subject of Spain. I disagree entirely with what the hon. Member for Rossendale said on this matter. I do not believe that there is anybody in this country who really minds very much one way or the other whether we are friends with Spain or not. I am referring to the ordinary man in the street. I say this from my own experience. I have never yet seen a private soldier who was fighting the Germans who hated a German. It was impossible to stop the private soldiers giving cups of tea to captured Germans, and making friends with them. It is not in the nature of the ordinary man in the street to go on hating people. That would be entirely contrary to the whole of our history.
  I consider that the aspect of probable political repercussions in this country is grossly exaggerated even if it exists at all. I realise that there would be serious repercussions in other countries, but, as one of my hon. Friends said, if we are to hesitate to take action because we are afraid of what Communist propaganda may do as a result, that will be the beginning of the end of democracy.
  I wish to stress one or two points other than the political aspect. Is it not within the bounds of possibility that a country with a vast airborne force might, if that country moved into Western Europe, drop five or six divisions into Spain? I ask hon. Members opposite to think of the effect of Russian air bases in Spain on our Mediterranean communications. If they cannot imagine that, I ask them to get into touch with some of our sailors and merchant men who took convoys to Malta after Germany occupied Italy. There is a very real danger, apart from the danger of the submarine menace to our food supplies.
  I urge hon. Gentlemen opposite to set aside this sort of dogmatic ideology and bitterness over the past and to face the stark realities of the situation. I consider

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  that it is insane to set aside the assistance which could be given by what is patently an anti-Communist country. People who are blinded by this hatred seem to forget the gratitude of thousands and thousands of soldiers who owe their existence to the fact that, when their enormous armada was assembling for the invasion of North Africa under the very guns and eyes of Algeciras, where they stayed for many days, not a single word was breathed to the Nazis about it. The invasion was a complete surprise.
  That is one reason, at least, why we should be grateful to the Spaniards, and it should be borne in mind especially by those who consider that Spain is a Fascist or Nazi country. I ask hon. Members to think not of the repercussions of introducing Spain, but of the repercussions of not introducing Spain. I agree with one of my hon. Friends who said that there should be no question of her joining the North Atlantic Pact.
  That brings me to the question of the inclusion of Turkey which I am sure we all welcome. I do not know enough about the subject to be able to say categorically one way or the other whether it would not have been better to have had a Mediterranean pact. Are not Turkey and Greece a little far afield for the North Atlantic Pact? I believe that a Mediterranean pact might have provided a better solution to the problem. Probably that is a subject more suitable for the debate next Monday.
  No one could fail to have been impressed by the speech made by General Eisenhower over the wireless recently to many millions of American listeners. Perhaps there are some who do not realise what he said. He paid a most magnificent tribute to what Great Britain has done since the war. That was the burden of his speech. It would be a most excellent thing if someone were to go to the B.B.C. microphone and tell the people not only of this country but of the world what the Americans have done for the world, and all the assistance which they have given to help to raise the standard of living of the peoples in the depressed countries, to say nothing of what they have done to assist His Majesty's Government in the past few years.
  We have in this country and in the House of Commons a minority voice—a
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  strident vocal minority which is heard more often, both inside and outside the House, than the majority. I am afraid that the Americans, because of the frequency with that voice is heard, are apt to think that it is the voice of the majority of the people. Let the Americans realise that it is the voice of a very small and insignificant minority, and that the great body of the people of this Empire and this country are eternally grateful to the Americans for what they have done.
  We have given our support to the broad principles of the foreign policy of His Majesty's Government. Our criticisms are levelled only at the detailed implementation of that policy. We regret the break-down in the Four-Power talks. We hope that the Russians are beginning to realise the analogy of the lamp-post and the motor car which is that no lamp-post has ever yet hit a motor car except in self-defence. The tragedy is that the international roadways are not at the moment very adequately lit.
  It was said of the respected predecessor of the present Foreign Secretary, during his illness, that it was a very serious matter that there should be no Foreign Secretary at the Foreign Office. I am not at all sure that it is not still today a very serious matter that we have no Foreign Secretary at the Foreign Office. The country and the Empire are getting a little bit tired of seeing Britain being kicked around. The main body of hon. Members in this Committee would like to see a man come to the Despatch Box and talk once more with a voice of Britain and of the Empire. There is one thing which the right hon. Gentleman should realise and it is that, owing to our reputation in the past for our diplomacy, we carry a very great weight in the world far in excess of our actual strength.
  The words of the British Foreign Secretary, if they are strong words, can always bring encouragement and hope to those nations of the world who are most in need of encouragement and hope. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman would once—just once out of the whole of the six years during which I have seen him—come to that Despatch Box and make a statesmanlike speech and not a party political speech—a speech which is not looking towards the next election but towards the next generation.
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. Edelman: The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) has made a blustering and insulting attack on the Foreign Secretary. I think that it was quite unworthy of him. The fact that today we have peace in the world is in a great measure due to the cautious but none the less firm approach of our Foreign Secretary to the dangers which threaten us. I am sure that if the policies advocated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, in association with many other hon. Gentlemen opposite, were to be followed, then indeed we should have the war which I am sure everyone in this Committee does not wish to have.
  It is no accident that the hon. and gallant Member speaks so enthusiatically in favour of General Franco. He may have forgotten what happened in the years before the war. He may have forgotten that General Franco acted in close conjunction with Hitler in preparing for the Second World War. He may have forgotten that Guernica was a rehearsal and a try-out for Coventry.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not trying to misrepresent what I said, but if he looks in the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow he will see that I never mentioned General Franco.
  Mr. Edelman: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman can divorce General Franco from Spain, then he is certainly more effective than his hon. and right hon. Friends or the Government of the country. The fact of the matter is that General Franco and the policy which he represents are integrally woven in with the present system in Spain. If the superficial logic of material expediency and strategy were to be followed, I am certain that there would be a great deal to be said for associating Spain with our system of defence, but there is more to be said about it than that.
  The fact is that the moral effect of joining Spain with our defence system would be to undermine the morale, not only of the Continent, but at home as well. It may well be that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, when he goes back to Worthing, may find that no one holds that view, but I can assure him that, if he goes into any industrial city in the country and talks to the workers, he will find that they have not forgotten what
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  General Franco did to the trade unions and the working classes in Spain, and he will realise that their feelings about Spain and the Fascist system are not merely that there has been at long last a repentance, but that their feelings represent a fundamental hostility to the organisation and policy of Fascism, of which system Spain is the only surviving representative in the world today.
  I speak in this matter, not from any doctrinal point of view, but because, in the case of Germany, I believe that it is absolutely right that Germany should join, in one form or another, in the defence of the West. I believe that that is desirable for a variety of reasons. I do not think that Germany should, without having any responsibility at all, be defended by the other countries of Western Europe and make no contribution, either in resources or in men, to the great and common task which faces us all today.
  For that reason alone, I say that it would be desirable to make Germany perform some sort of service to the collective defence of the West, and it is precisely for that reason that, when the proposal for a European army was raised at the Council of Europe a year ago, I voted in favour of it. I support the creation of a European army today precisely because I am opposed to the re-creation of a national German army with a national general staff, and it seems to me that the only alternative to the creation of a national German army today is to create a European army, in which German forces will be integrated and towards which Germany will have to make a contribution of material and of men, while at the same time safeguarding that a resurrected German national army shall never again become a menace to her neighbours and to Europe as a whole.
  I want to turn from that point to the question of the balance of power in Europe, and, indeed, in the world as a whole. If we are seeking in our defensive system in the West to put our forces in equilibrium with those of Russia and her satellites, it is of the utmost importance that we should recognise how strong Russia really is. Indeed, the great debate which is today going on inside the Labour Party derives very largely from the estimates which we make of the strength of Russia today.

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  I have very carefully read the pamphlet "One Way Only" with particular reference to its proposals for deterring the Russians, and, in reading it, I observed that there seems to be no difference of view, certainly no difference of principle, inside the Labour Party as to whether something should be done to balance the power of Russia and to defend the West against potential Russian aggression. The only difference that exists in the party seems to me to be about the actual estimates of how strong Russia actually is, and, therefore, the debate, such as it is, which is going on, revolves around the assessment, and the capacity for assessment by those who are concerned in the matter, of what Russian resources really are.
  I read with great interest the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo), in Monday's debate, and I am delighted to see him here today, because I gave him notice that I was raising this point, and, indeed, he may wish to correct me if I say anything factual with which he disagrees. On Monday, he said:
  " The countries embraced within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation have three times as much coal between them as the whole of Eastern Europe and the other Russian satellites… and six times as much steel."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd July, 1951; Vol. 490, c. 1741.]
  Those words "six times as much steel" are crucial, because, in saying that, my hon. Friend was echoing what was stated in the pamphlet One Way Only," and repeating, in a little different form, what was said by his right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), who said something to the effect that 215 million tons of steel does not go to war with 140 million tons. I have examined these figures which have been put forward by the hon. Gentleman and his friends—
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I thought they were our friends.
  Mr. Edelman: The hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friends—[An HON. MEMBER: "All pals together."] The total production of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries is 125 million long tons of crude steel, but the total production of the Soviet Union and her satellites is 34 million long tons; in other words, the actual disproportion
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  between the production of the Soviet Union and her satellites and of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is as four to one, and not as six to one.
  It may be that that is merely an arithmetical difference, but, on the other hand, if the disagreement which we are having as to the relative resources and what we must put into the scale in order to contain Russia depends on arithmetic, then, surely, we ought to get it right. Therefore, I trust that my hon. Friend and those who hold the same views on the statistics of production will bear that in mind in considering what effort we have to put forward in order to measure our strength against the potential strength of Russia.
  Mr. Donnelly: Would not my hon. Friend agree that equally valid to this argument is the fact that there have been so many varied estimates of Russian strength so far as military divisions are concerned? We have had them from various Government spokesmen, including the Under-Secretary for War at one time, we have heard them from a dozen hon. Members; and we have heard from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition at various times still different estimates of the number of Russian divisions, so that it is clearly valid to take that into consideration in discussing this matter.
  Mr. Edelman: The hon. Gentleman charges the War Office with over-production of Russian divisions, and equally he has to face a charge of under-production of Russian steel. In fact, he is now trying to assess what we have to put into the effort of containing the Russians, and it seems to me that we ought to get these figures right.
  The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyatt): As there has been doubt cast on the latest estimate which I gave of the number of Russian divisions, it might perhaps be convenient if I cleared up this misunderstanding. The estimate that was given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence was 175 Russian divisions, and that referred to infantry and armoured divisions only. My estimate referred to a total of 215 divisions, which included an additional 40 artillery and anti-aircraft divisions, so that there is no discrepancy at all.
  Mr. Edelman: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I think the Committee will note that those who put forward these figures in the debate the day before yesterday have not seen fit to challenge the figures that are now put forward.
  As to the arguments of my hon. Friend, we have come to the conclusion that, if we take as a fundamental factor the industrial potential which is to be taken into account, there can be no doubt that we are greatly over-estimating the strength of the potential enemy, and, in my submission, my hon. Friend greatly underestimated the potential strength of the potential enemy.
  Mr. Mikardo: I did not wish to interrupt my hon. Friend, but I should be very happy after this debate to tell him where his figures are wrong. I can do that without any difficulty at all. One has to take into account not merely one year's output of steel, but the amount of capacity. All I want to say is that I would ask the Committee to believe that, as my hon. Friend started by saying that four times as much is in balance, I would say that six times as much is in balance and four times as much is out of balance.
  Mr. Edelman: In answer to the last part of my hon. Friend's intervention, four times as large is certainly not in balance, but, on the other hand, if we take into account the fact that Russia could almost with a shrug of her shoulders in the case of war encroach upon the steel production of Western Europe, which adds up to a total of 47 million tons, then, indeed, the fact that the North Atlantic Treaty production is only four times greater than that of Russia—not six times greater—is a most important factor in estimating the amount of resources that we should put into our defence effort. While I am grateful for his offer to put me right at the end of the debate, I am sure the Committee would have preferred it if he had taken the opportunity of putting the Committee right in the actual course of the debate.
  In considering the strength of Russia we must be quite sure that we do not either over-estimate or indeed underestimate, because the last person of some notoriety to make a major miscalculation about Russia's strength was, in fact Goering. He under-estimated it by very
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  much, and later on when the war was won it was Goering who said that Russia had been responsible for the most colossal bluff in the whole history of warfare. He said that not because the facts were not available, but because he refused to believe the facts as they were represented.
  In considering the validity of the Russian statistics, I believe that one would do well always to take at their face value the actual statistics of physical resources which the Russians put forward, because it happens to be part of the Russian psychological make-up that although they exaggerate certain things and deny others, so far as production is concerned that is the one thing of which they are proud both in public and in private. Therefore we ought to treat their statements very seriously.
  May I be permitted to mention a few comparative statistics of Russian strength today and Germany's strength as it was in 1939. If we take the case of steel alone, in 1939 Germany was producing 23,700,000 tons while Russia today is producing at the rate of approximately 27 million tons. In the case of oil, even with Rumanian production included, Germany was producing at the rate of only 7 million tons of oil in 1939, whereas Russia today despite all the difficulties which she is having in the Caucasus is producing at the rate of 43 million tons per annum.
  In the case of aluminium, Germany's production in 1939 was 195,100 tons whereas Russia's production today is at the rate of 200,000 tons. I could give a further range of figures, but I do not wish to do so. The fact is that we must recognise that Russia's potential resources today and her capacity to make war are considerably more than is shown in the estimate of those who have contributed to "One Way Only" and of those who have advocated those views in the House.
  Therefore, if the difference on this side of the Committee is not a difference of principle as to whether one should stand up to Russia, but merely a difference of estimate as to what extent one should put resources into the task of standing up to Russia, I wish to declare here and now that I reject the figures put forward by those of my hon. Friends who are associated with "One Way Only" and am prepared to accept the estimate on which the Government have based their programme and which they believe to be

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  necessary in order to deal with the situation as it is today.
  It is not enough just to stand up to the Russians. I believe that at a certain point we must, even if we will never accept—as, indeed, we never will—the ideology which Russia seems to propagate, we must have a modus vivendi which will stabilise our relations with the great Eastern bloc and still permit the movement of trade and mutual benefits to begin again, because the great disaster from which Europe suffers today is that it has been cut in two and that the natural organic flow of industrial products from the West to the East has been stopped.
  I hope that having reached the stage of the containing of the Soviet Union, we will proceed to elaborate the constructive policies which I am sure my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has at heart in order that Europe may once again recover its unity and live in peace.
  6.35 p.m.
  Brigadier Smyth: I propose to confine my remarks entirely to the Japanese Peace Treaty and particularly to the provision made in that Treaty regarding Far Eastern prisoners of war, which is a cause I have very much at heart, although I was not myself a prisoner of war, and, therefore, shall not be a beneficiary of any of the generosity that is to be bestowed upon the ex-prisoners by the Treaty. This Treaty will be, and I know is, considered in this country and throughout the Commonwealth as a soft treaty so far as Japan is concerned. I know that we should not be vindictive and pursue a vendetta and that we should let bygones be bygones. I quite appreciate the difficulties of the Foreign Secretary in that respect.
  Nevertheless, it is difficult to forget that only a comparatively short time ago Japan was a very formidable competitor in trade with this country. It is also a little hard to forget the extreme degree of treachery with which the Japanese launched their campaign upon us in the Far East at a time when we were stretched to the limit in our war against Germany. I remember, too, the brutality with which the Japanese conducted their war in the early days of the 1942 campaign when their star was in the ascendant, and the
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  callous brutality with which they treated our Far Eastern prisoners of war.
  I realise the difficulties which the Foreign Secretary has had in his discussions with Mr. Foster Dulles, and I also realise how important it is that in this matter we should work in the very closest co-operation with our American Allies. But I also suggest that between friends one often gains more respect by stating one's point of view very firmly, even though it may be contrary to that held by the other side. I hope that the Foreign Secretary has not closed his mind to the provisions of the draft Treaty, and that he is really going to regard it as a draft which can and will be amended in accordance with the wishes of this House and in accordance with the recommendations and wishes put forward by the nations of the Commonwealth.
  If I have one criticism to make of the approach to the drawing up of the Treaty, it is that we did not first get together with the Commonwealth and discuss the matter among ourselves and put forward a combined Commonwealth appreciation at the time when we had these conversations with Mr. Foster Dulles. What we did was to discuss the matter primarily between ourselves and America and then to submit the matter to the Commonwealth for their views.
  I want to confine my remarks now entirely to Article 16 of the draft Peace Treaty which deals with the Far Eastern prisoners of war. In the debate on the Motion I moved in the House on 10th May, we asked the Government to include a clause in the Treaty to give compensation to our Far Eastern prisoners of war for the sufferings and brutalities that they experienced whilst in Japanese hands. As hon. Members will remember, that was essentially an all-party Motion. It was signed by 297 hon. Members, including no fewer than 90 hon. Members from the Government side of the House. I think that was rather remarkable and showed that the House does not regard this as a party matter but is looking at it as one of essentially British concern for people who suffered much in the service of this country during the war.
  Despite the rather discouraging response which the Motion had from the Minister of State, the House accepted it in no uncertain terms without a Division, and I think we must express our appreciation

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  and gratitude to the Foreign Secretary for having taken note of the opinion of the House and for having included this matter in the draft Peace Treaty. In my concluding remarks when I spoke on 10th May, I said:
  " I believe that by giving whole-hearted assent to this Motion we shall not merely put in a clause on behalf of Far Eastern prisoners into the Peace Treaty—although I hope we shall do that—but we shall be showing the whole world that we are absolutely determined to outlaw war and those who wage aggressive war. We shall show that if, however, war does come upon us despite our efforts, there are certain codes of humanity and human decency, particularly with regard to women and children and helpless captives of war, which we, the British people, insist shall be observed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th May, 1951; Vol. 487, c. 2237.]
  The Far Eastern prisoners of war feel that by getting that clause into the Treaty they have maintained and established this principle with regard to a certain code of conduct.
  I feel very uneasy about our Korean prisoners of war and I wish we could have had an opportunity of establishing our opinion on this whole matter at a rather earlier date. I want to make it quite clear that my Motion did not include civilians who had lost property in the Far East and were putting in for compensation. I made that clear subsequently in a supplementary question to the Foreign Secretary, when I said that I did not think they could possibly be included in this claim because obviously the case of people who have suffered losses in the Far East—and some of them have lost everything they had in the world—is a matter for individual treatment. I hope that matter will receive attention, but obviously it could not be included in the claim of the Far Eastern prisoners of war.
  I should like to say that, to my certain experience, in the early operations with the Japanese in 1942 there were many cases where we particularly asked civilians to remain at their posts. Therefore, I think it is very hard that in cases where, having complied with that request, they lost everything they had in the world they should not be going to receive early compensation.
  I want to come down to one or two important details in this draft Article 16 which I want to put especially to the Foreign Secretary. First of all, I want
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  to deal with the money that is to be made available for the Far Eastern prisoners. The Foreign Secretary has said it would amount in all to about £5 million. I understand that over 200,000 ex-prisoners are to be compensated, which would work out on a per capita basis at only £25 per man. I think the Committee will agree that that is a very paltry sum indeed.
  The American Government have already paid their Far Eastern prisoners on a much more generous scale of a dollar per day per man for every day of captivity; and they paid that on a flat rate because they very rightly judged there was no other fair method on which such a claim could be paid. They paid that amount mainly from certain frozen Japanese assets which they had in their possession before these Treaty discussions started.
  I am sure that Mr. Foster Dulles would agree that in this matter it should be a case of fair shares for all and that all the nationals who have suffered in the same way at the hands of the Japanese should be paid on the same scale. On 10th May I expressed my admiration for what economists could do with figures. I said then that if there were a will in this matter there would be a way, and I asked for £9,500,000 for our 38,000 British prisoners of war and the dependants of the 10,000 who died in captivity. That was reckoned on a basis of 3s. per man per day. On that occasion the Minister of State who, as I said, received the Motion in a very discouraging way, said he must warn the House that there was practically no chance of getting anything out of the Japanese at all.
  All I would say is that in quite a short time his figure of nought has risen to a total of £5 million and my admiration for economists has increased. Therefore, I can, with complete confidence, reiterate the claim I made on 10th May that our British Far Eastern prisoners should receive £9,500,000. And I am quite certain that in three years' time we shall be wishing we had asked for a considerably bigger sum because I am absolutely sure that the Japanese are already recovering very rapidly and that their recovery will continue at a very rapid rate.
  Surely, this bill for brutalities rendered should take precedence over all other

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  claims on the Japanese. I only heard this morning from Australia that the Australian Far Eastern prisoners of war are just as dissatisfied with the amount of money that is being made available as our British Far Eastern prisoners are, and they are pressing their own Government most strongly for a sum of £4 million reckoned on the same scale as our Far Eastern prisoners are calculating theirs.
  The second and last point I want to put to the Minister is with regard to the method and scale of distribution of such money as we may get from the Japanese. The Far Eastern prisoners of war look with the very greatest approval on the International Red Cross as the body selected in the Treaty to collect and distribute the money. We think there could be no more suitable and reputable body for the purpose. It is stated absolutely clearly in Article 16 of the draft Treaty that this money is being made available by the Japanese,
  "… to indemnify those members of the armed forces of the Allied Powers who suffered undue hardships while prisoners of war of Japan.…"
  That is the purpose for which we ask the money, and, quite rightly, it is being given definitely for that purpose. I have said all along, and our Far Eastern ex-prisoners agree unanimously, that they have absolutely no wish to compete with other ex-Service men in the matter of disability pensions, welfare schemes, hospital treatment and all those things for which adequate machinery exists in this country already. This sum of money is being claimed from the Japanese for certain brutalities which our men suffered while they were prisoners of war.
  I ask the Foreign Secretary if he will request the International Red Cross to distribute such money as they get and we hope it will be considerably more than that which is already envisaged—quickly to the various national branches and that it will be distributed on a per capita basis. I say with complete authority that the Far Eastern British prisoners of war are absolutely agreed, and they were agreed months ago, that even if they got only 6d. per man they would rather get it on an equal-shares-for-all basis than that there should be set up cumbersome committees which would sit for years so that a lot of those who are supposed to benefit from
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  the scheme would probably be dead long before anybody got any money.
  They are absolutely agreed on that point, and, as the money is being given for the Far Eastern prisoners, surely in this case the customer should be adjudged to be right and the money should be distributed in the way in which those ex-prisoners wish. It is quite impossible to measure degrees of suffering experienced by various prisoners 10 years ago in prisoner-of-war camps. If any organisation attempts to set up committees to do that I am certain that it will end with a great deal of dissatisfaction for all concerned.
  I should like to take this opportunity of thanking all those Members on both sides of the Committee who gave their support to this very worthy cause. As hon. Members know, we had a lot of rather formidable opposition, and we are not out of the wood yet. But it is not only the 297 Members who signed the Motion whom I should like to thank, but the more senior Members on both sides of the Committee who, by reason of their position, were not allowed to sign the Motion but nevertheless gave their warm support.
  I am sure I should be interpreting the views of the Committee if I said that we are grateful to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for having taken note of the wishes of the House and having included this matter in the Peace Treaty; but we say quite definitely to him that the sum envisaged simply will not do. We are certain that it can and must be increased. I am sure that the Americans who have been paid on a much more generous scale will see the justice of that claim and so also will the Japanese.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: The hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Brigadier Smyth) concluded his speech by thanking hon. Members for the assistance they have given in bringing this matter before the Committee. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that from every side we desire to thank him also for the part he has played and for the assiduous way in which he has brought this matter before the attention of the Committee and of the Government. I want to thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman personally for his speech tonight. I can assure him that we are at

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  one with him in desiring that the fullest possible compensation should be paid to those people who suffered so much not only physically but mentally in the most cruel circumstances.
  I shall come a little later on to the other part of the draft Treaty with Japan. I should like to turn my attention for a moment to the wider issue, namely, how do we really stand today? Is our position stronger, is it growing stronger from day to day, and is the free world more united as we proceed, so that we are reaching that position we desire to reach where we can definitely say that all we have done and are trying to do is to ensure peace and to avoid the horrors of a third war? I am not sure even now quite where we stand with many matters. I do not know quite where the political direction ought to be.
  We have got a unified command, and the very able man who is at the head of that command, and who has earned the respect of all countries, has put forward his own ideas with regard to the forces under his command. How far are the nations and Governments agreed on the policy which he has put forward? For some considerable time some of us, not only in this country but elsewhere, have urged that our policies—our defence policy, our political policy and our economic policy—are integrated and that we cannot really separate one from the other. I should like to have known more about what is being done along those lines politically and economically, as well as our position defensively, in conjunction with all the other free nations which have joined together to defend freedom and to maintain a permanent and just peace throughout the world.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) referred to Spain. I have no doubt that we should do our very utmost to increase our material and our moral strength. I have not the slightest doubt that we should add considerably to our material strength if we had the assistance of Spanish men, whether in the Army or in the Air Force. It may be very desirable that we should have bases in Spain. But having put those on the assets side, can anyone be sure that we should not lose more on the other side? The hon. and
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  gallant Gentleman said that we can be friendly with the Spanish people. Of course we can. He said that we are friendly with the German people and that there was friendliness between the armies even in the middle of the war. Of course, there was. But surely that is not the point.
  The real point is: what is our object? Have we got a common object? As has been pointed out by an hon. Member opposite, the Government of Spain, under a dictator, in our time of stress and difficulty, did not desire that our method of government should succeed and did not believe in democracy but was anxious that our enemy, Hitler, should succeed. Can we be convinced now that there has been such a change of heart that their object is the same as ours—that of maintaining the peace of the world, of ensuring that democracy shall be the true form of Government and that we shall have justice throughout the world?
  How are we to be convinced about these matters? Might I suggest one way —one that would have very great influence with me? How far are these countries prepared to join in signing the Charter of Human Rights and putting it into active effect in all their countries? If they would do that, then so far as I am concerned they would be travelling a very long way towards the same objective as that which, I am quite sure, the people of this country have in mind.
  Perhaps I may say a few words, too, about Germany. I would say the same about Germany as about Spain. Once again, on the question of whether one should arm Western Germany, there is much to be said for the argument that they should be defending the liberties which we have won for them, much to be said that they who have caused so much misery and suffering throughout the world in two wars should now be defending those liberties. If there had been no Kaiser there would have been no Hitler; and if there had been neither, what a different world we should be in today.
  Lord John Hope: There would have been somebody else.
  Mr. Davies: There might have been somebody else, but there are those two, at any rate. What a different world it

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  would have been in suffering and in losses, not only of material but of the finest men of our time—losses from which it will take us generations to recover. It is right that the Germans should be used, perhaps, but, again, what will be the effect? We know of the opposition in France—and is that to be wondered at in view of the fact that France has suffered so much within the memory of people born before 1870—three invasions, three humiliations? We cannot expect them to get over that quickly, but in the plan for a new integrated army, which is a plan put forward even by the great Commander-in-Chief, I can see a great virtue. In fact, I look even beyond its present conception. Some time, when peace has really been established and when we can talk on equal terms with Russia and any other country which has a dictatorship, it may be the nucleus of the police force which will maintain law and order throughout the world.
  I turn now to Japan and to the draft Peace Treaty. I must comment on the fact that it was nearly six years after the conclusion of the war with Germany and Japan before we began even to suggest that we should formally declare that we were no longer at war with either, and nearly six years before we put forward a draft treaty for discussion. I wonder what future generations will say about that. This generation, which has suffered so much from wars—the first of four years and the next of six years—took another six years before it could say even that the state of war was over and that it could begin to discuss peace.
  I think this draft Treaty is on a sound basis. It is wonderfully fair. It looks to me as if Mr. John Foster Dulles, who undoubtedly has been mainly responsible for drafting it and compiling it, has kept firmly in mind that the mistakes which were made at Versailles should not be repeated.
  Mr. Harold Davies: He has repeated some of them.
  Mr. Davies: It may be; I hope not, and if he has they could be left out. There is no point in inflicting humiliation upon people for any length of time.
  Mr. Harold Davies: I agree, and the same applies to Mao Tse-tung.
  Mr. Davies: It can lead only to further disaster. Recriminations are bound to arise and, what is more, there is always a difficulty in imposing terms which are almost impossible. But, on the whole, one can say that it is an effort to be fair. If I may use the very sound words of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, it emphasises that these people should work their passage back into a normal condition. I approve of the Preamble which states, at the head of this draft Peace Treaty, that it is to
  "… enable Japan to carry out its intention to apply for membership in the United Nations Organisation and in all circumstances to conform to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations; to strive to realise the objectives of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."
  Let her work her way back along those lines.
  Having said that, I should like to come to one matter which I understand meets with the approval of both sides of the House. That does not surprise me. It begins in Article 8:
  " Japan will recognise the full force of all treaties now or hereafter concluded by the Allied powers.…."
  That is Clause (a) of Article 8, and then follows Clause (b):
  " Japan renounces all such rights and interests as she may derive from being a signatory Power of the Conventions of St. Germain-en-Laye of 10th September, 1919, and the Straits Agreements of Montreux of 20th July, 1936, and from Article 16 of the Treaty of Lausanne of 24th July, 1923."
  Why do that? Why limit her in that way? When we have this recognition that she has to work her way back, why do do that? There are other phrases dealing with much the same kind of thing. How is that going to help when we say, "You shall not now have the same conditions as we were prepared to give you when we signed this agreement at St. Germain-en-Laye"?
  What was that? It was that the trade of all nations should enjoy complete freedom in that area known as the Congo Basin. It was that free trade principles should be applied to the signatory Powers and to such independent States as might approve of such actions. What object can be served by saying, "You shall no longer come on the same footing as Britain or France or Belgium in trading with the Congo Basin today"? Who will suffer? Britain? Here, goods

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  are already in such short supply that we cannot possibly supply the Africans of the Congo Basin. France or Belgium? They are in much the same position. The people who will suffer will be those who could be supplied by somebody—the people of the Congo Basin. Why punish them?
  This is in an effort to do what? To stop competition coming from Japan. What else can it mean? The hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) very rightly called attention to the conditions in Japan today and warned us about what was happening. They are rapidly approaching a state of slavery, with extension of hours, lowering of wages and so on. But the right way to deal with that is not to stop them from trading. They are already being allowed to enter the International Labour Organisation. Why not use that? Why not use the Charter of Human Rights, and say, "You shall treat your people decently and properly"? But how can we possibly help them if we are going to stop them from trading?
  Mr. Ellis Smith: We agree; but in the meantime we want to live.
  Mr. Davies: Let me just refer to what the President of the Board of Trade said, very rightly, in a written answer which he issued on exactly the same day as this draft Treaty was issued. He said:
  " we recognise that Japan's economic circumstances are very similar to those of the United Kingdom, she must export to live. Japan must succeed in paying her way without United States support which has sustained her economy during the occupation. This will be a difficult task, with her rapidly increasing population and lack of raw materials, and we therefore attach special importance to the intention expressed by Japan in the Preamble to the draft Treaty of conforming in public and private trading and commerce to internationally accepted fair practices."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th July, 1951; Vol. 490, c. 50.]
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that even at this juncture, while that very splendid phrase is being put into the Treaty, there is some unfair competition from Japan in the way of pirated designs, which we have heard spoken about today? I think a little more practice and rather fewer pious wishes would help.
  An Hon. Member: On both sides.
  Mr. Davies: The way to deal with that is to deal with the evils, and surely not by forbidding her to export altogether.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: I did not say that.
  Mr. Davies: What is to happen? Look at the population today. There were 50 million in 1909; 64 million in 1930; 84 million today; and they have got to export to live.
  Mr. Harold Davies: I just want to test the honesty of the allegation of what is called unfairness. How many countries, Australia and others included, are prepared to take into their vast open spaces some millions of these people who are struggling for a standard of life?
  Mr. Davies: I do not know. That I could not possibly answer. If we have 84 millions of people within those islands, which cannot feed them, what are we going to do but allow those people to export? The answer to the other points that have been made about their bad faith, their conditions of labour amounting almost to slavery, their trickery, is to ask them to put a stop to those things, and to ask them to conform to the ordinary right practices.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: How?
  Mr. Davies: We shall not do it—obviously we shall not do it—by saying to them, "You shall not export freely." With starvation staring them in the face, they will have to resort to all kinds of other tricks in order to live. That is only natural and human.
  It is right that we should remember the cruelties that the war imposed upon all people that came under the thraldom of the Japanese war machine, but, at the same time, we must realise that we cannot all the time punish a nation. If we want these people to take their part with the others of us in maintaining a free world and a peaceful world, then we have got to enable them to live and to work decently and properly, and we shall never obtain anything but hatred leading to war if we stop them from trading to earn, in the only way they can earn, their daily bread.
  7.14 p.m.
  Mr. Baird: I should like first to say how much I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Brigadier Smyth) in his plea for the ex-Japanese prisoners of war. I agree wholeheartedly with him, and with the great work he has done in this job to which he has applied himself, and I hope that the Government will pay attention to his point of view in this matter, which is also the point of view of a large number of Members of this Committee
  With regard to the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), the Leader of the Liberal Party, I should say that I agree with most of it, but I thought it was rather woolly with regard to the Japanese Peace Treaty. There has been a lot of talk—not by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but by others—about how the Japanese Government today are a Liberal Government. The fact of the matter is that in these three countries, of which we have been talking, Japan, Spain and Germany, we see the ex-Fascists climbing back into power, and the Japanese Government are more than tainted with Fascism. That is the position, which we cannot ignore.
  Mr. C. Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? I am very grateful to him. These are not the only people who find it convenient to use the term "Liberal" when their principles are directly opposed to Liberal principles.
  Mr. Baird: I quite agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but the fact of the matter is that the old gangs are climbing back into power. I quite agree that there is the problem of the rising population of Japan, but I believe that the way to tackle it—and the only way—is by putting forward a world plan of mutual aid as suggested in the pamphlet, "One Way Only." We should see America and the other great countries coming together and planning these underdeveloped areas for their mutual benefit instead of in a higgledy-piggledy way as at present.
  I must confess that I am not an expert in foreign affairs. This is the first speech in the six years I have been a Member of Parliament in which I have ventured to put my point of view on foreign affairs. It may be, however, that the experts who
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  are dealing with the details sometimes do not see the wood for the trees. All I hope is that what I have to say will bring a little breath of fresh air into the debate.
  There are certain facts apparent to all of us, and the first, I think—and I think that everyone will admit this—is that we cannot deter Russia simply by fair words. I do not think that there is anyone in this Committee who is against the rearmament programme.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Oh?
  Mr. Baird: May be there are one or two, including my hon. Friend, but I think that any great differences between us are not on the necessity for re-armament but about the scale of re-armament. I think we must make that quite clear. Some of us think that the scale of re-armament is too great. Second, I do not think there is anyone in the Committee—and I do not think that even my hon. Friend the Member for Ayrshire, South (Mr. Emrys Hughes), will disagree with me in this—who would not agree that we all acknowledge the great debt we owe to the United States of America for what they have done for world relationships since the end of the war, and specially by the provision of Marshall Aid, which showed great vision.
  But third—and I think a large number of us recognise this and that we all ought to recognise it—while we may condemn Russia, Russia has not been responsible entirely for the deadlock in the international relationships. We all have a number of mistakes to be chalked up on the slate against us.
  One of the greatest dangers to peace, apart from Russian expansion in the world today, is the irresponsibility of certain groups. I have in mind at the moment the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer). I mean certain groups in this country and in America. When discussing international affairs, they show irresponsibility and, indeed, hysteria, which, if not checked, can, I believe, throw us completely off our balance and off our judgment; and if that happens I believe we shall, instead of being on the offensive in the world of ideas, be on the defensive; and if we lose the war of ideas, that will be a much greater defeat than any defeat on the battlefield.

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  Another point I feel rather strongly about is this, that the greater becomes our military strength—I am talking of the Atlantic Powers—the more it is necessary for us to recognise that there is a danger that our policy may come to be dictated by the needs of the military. There is a danger of the military dictating policies, instead of the politicians. It is these two factors, the irresponsibility of certain sections of the community and the growing strength of the military in political affairs that, I believe, are forcing us, against our better judgment, to accept a policy today which, in the long run, will do us great damage.
  We must recognise—we in this country and in this Committee that we are today sacrificing what we know to be our vital interests for the sake of Anglo-American unity.
  Mr. Henry Hopkinson: Would the hon. Gentleman give examples?
  Mr. Baird: I was just about to do so. There is, for instance, the American idea of the Japanese Peace Treaty. My hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) has told us of the effects that the Treaty will have on Lancashire if carried out according to the American plan.
  Then there is the failure of our American friends to recognise the Chinese Government, and the military backing which has been given to Chiang Kai-shek. We all know that in a few months time the question of who is to control Manchuria will come up in discussions between the Russians and the Chinese, and at a time when we have an opportunity of splitting these two forces we are in danger, by the shortsighted policy of the American Government, of forcing them together in a common desire to defend themselves.
  The military treaty between Spain and the United States, and the attempt by certain hon. Members opposite to obtain her admission into the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and also the rearmament of Western Germany, will encourage the resurgence of Fascism in Western Europe.
  I ask those who advocate that Spain should be brought into the comity of nations once again to remember that only the other week a responsible Spanish
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  statesman again demanded that Gibraltar should belong to Spain. If Spain is rearmed and demands the possession of Gibraltar, will we then agree to send in Mr. Harriman or some other American statesman to negotiate between ourselves and the Spaniards about who should control Gibraltar?
  What is happening in the world today? The Pentagon, thinking only in terms of military needs, makes certain demands on the Administration; Press hysteria backs up those demands, and pressure is brought to bear on the American Administration, which ultimately gives in. Pressure is then brought to bear on our Government; we protest and stand firm. Then one of our statesmen goes out to America and returns accepting what he has been protesting against. That is what is happening today. I believe that the decisions taken recently about re-arming Japan as a base against China, to have air bases in Spain, and more German divisions, are all military decisions which the politicians have been forced to accept against their better judgment.
  I say that the generals must be restrained. Up to now, in Russia Stalin has known how to control the generals, and when there has been a change in line in Russia the generals have very often changed with it. There is danger in this country, and in the Atlantic Pact countries, that although we may change our control, and although MacArthurs may go, MacArthurism carries on. The danger of a foreign policy which is, to such a great extent, dictated by the military is that, as a result of accepting military policy, we shall be forced to carry out a policy of unconditional surrender. That is a military policy, and is the danger as I see it.
  I wish to refer especially to the rearming of Western Germany. This seems to me to be perhaps the greatest folly of all. In March, 1950, the late Foreign Secretary said:
  " If we want to bring France and Germany together, talking about arming Germany in any form is, I am satisfied, going to set the clock back for a considerable time. I talk with my French colleagues about the great problems with which we have to deal. Like the last speaker, I pay tribute to French statesmanship in the tremendous task which they have undertaken in trying to solve the various problems which now face us. But I am not going to take a step which is going to set the clock back—which would make

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  things very bitter and very difficult to solve." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th March, 1950; Vol. 473, c. 325.]
  That was a statement made on behalf of His Majesty's Government some 15 months ago. Shortly afterwards we accepted German re-armament in principle.
  Those of us who have been in touch with German circles recently know that in Germany today the general mass of the population have a completely cynical outlook towards politics. I believe that Germany could, if not restrained, become once again a breeding ground for Fascism, and the first danger of German re-armament is that there will again be an instrument for the growth of Fascism.
  In Eastern Europe today we still have many friends, and if we want to lose these friends, if we want to consolidate the States of Eastern Europe behind Russia, the best way to do it is to re-arm Western Germany. And, most important of all, once Western Germany is re-armed the last bridge between the East and the West is destroyed. Once Germany is rearmed it will be very difficult for us at any future date to achieve a peaceful solution of the world's problems.
  Various hon. Members have suggested that the solution is the one put forward by some French statesmen. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman), said that we would appreciate the re-emergence of a German General Staff. I think what he meant was that he was in favour of the Pleven Plan. What is the position? We all know quite well that the French put forward this proposal because they knew that the Germans could not accept it. Those of us who have studied this matter know quite well that the Germans will not accept the Pleven Plan. What is the good of talking about a plan which we know will never be carried into effect?
  Mr. Edelman: It is completely inaccurate to suggest that the French have put forward this plan in the belief that the Germans will not accept it. On the contrary, there is considerable support for the plan among Germans who do not want to see a German national army but who are prepared to work for a united Europe.
  Mr. Baird: We must both wait and see what happens. Certainly from what I have been told by the Germans and
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  French I have spoken to, I have formed the opinion that Germany will not accept the Pleven Plan, but will go all out for a German General Staff.
  Mr. de Chair: Actually, they signed it this morning.
  Mr. Baird: There is one other point we must all face. I believe that we in this country have done right in standing up to America. It is only right to recognise that the best way for two great nations to be friendly is not for one of them always to accept what the other one says. We have done a great service, for both ourselves and our friends across the Atlantic, by criticising them from time to time. On many occasions we have restrained them when they might have gone wrong; and I suppose that on other occasions they have restrained us. But once Spain, Germany and Japan are re-armed, then these allies of America will be much more subservient to America than we are, and we may find that our influence with America will diminish in proportion to the increase of the re-arming of the former Fascist Powers. I appeal to right hon. Gentlemen opposite, in our own national interest, to remember that there is a danger of the resurgence of these countries and of the influence they will have on the United States.
  The only sanction we in this country have just now with regard to restraining America in Europe is our air bases. Once there are also air bases in Spain our influence in that respect will have disappeared.
  Finally, I should like to say a word or two about the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North, who said that the recent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo), was incorrect. Our preponderance of steel was 1 in 4, not 1 in 6, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South. He suggested that the aluminium and oil which Russia now had was as great, if not greater, than Germany had at the beginning of the war. He said that we must not argue that the Russians are weakening. It may be that the hon. Member for Reading, South, overestimated the strength of the Western Powers, or it may be that the hon. Member for Coventry, North, under-estimated; I do not know, but with the

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  present balance of power, why is it that in Persia, for instance, the Russians have not interfered to any great extent? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Why is it in Korea the initiative for peace came from Russia? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
  I am talking about the present time. The initiative came from Russia for the present peace negotiations.
  Mr. Hopkinson: I think that the hon. Member should be fair to Mr. Acheson. The initative for that peace came on the 1st June in Mr. Acheson's speech. It was not followed up by Mr. Malik until 25 days later.
  Mr. Baird: Let me develop my argument. The hon. Member for Coventry, North, argued the balance between Russia and the Western Powers was 4 to 1. Surely if Russia is showing signs that she wants to negotiate now, she is not going to carry on an aggressive war next year when we are strong. The time has now come when we are getting very near to a balance of strength in Europe. When we reach that balance of strength—and Russia by her action has shown that she does not feel strong enough for an aggressive war—are we to continue to re-arm until we have a predominance of strength?
  I believe that would be a wrong course. Once there is a predominance of strength on one side it is very difficult to retain peace. I believe that once we get that balance of strength, the time has come to reopen negotiations and to get round the table with Soviet Russia. I believe that the time has now come when we have struck a balance of power. If people want war, by all means go on building up our strength until we have such an overwhelming strength that we can dictate to other people.
  Major Tufton Beamish: We have not nearly that strength.
  Mr. Baird: I think as a Socialist, and I 'say that at the first opportunity we must seek reconciliation with the other powers of the world and build up a peaceful solution. I deplore the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing, when he expressed the wish that we had a Foreign Secretary who would lay down the law to these other nations. That is not the way to peace. The way ahead
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  lies along the road suggested in "One Way Only."
  7.35 p.m.
  Lord John Hope: May I at once remind the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mr. Baird) of three things? First, the Russian goal is still what Professor Laski defined as the "organisation of catastrophe"; secondly, Russia still looks upon war as inevitable; thirdly, Russia still intends that the maintenance of peaceful relations with the enemies of Communism is only tactical while her great plan of disruption proceeds.
  I do not myself believe either that war is inevitable or that the Communist plan need succeed. But the issue depends only on the strength and purpose of the free world. In that connection, I was encouraged, as I believe almost everyone in this House was, by the realism shown by Mr. Acheson in the speech which he made yesterday at Detroit, and which has already been quoted at some length. I should like to quote very shortly a further passage in that speech in which Mr. Acheson said:
  " Whether or not there is peace in Korea, whether our adversaries are cooing like doves or growling like bears, our job remains the same. The threat we face remains the same. The tactics of the Kremlin are flexible, and may change from season to season. But so long as its power is of threatening proportions, and so long as it does not show a willingness to work for a stable and peaceful world, the danger remains."
  Has that willingness been shown? Anyone who has followed, as I have, the daily stream of broadcast propaganda on the Russia and satellite radio in connection with the Korean truce moves knows that that propaganda has certainly not taken the form of expressing the hope that this may be the dawn of peace, when different systems and men of different opinion can work together. Not a bit of it. The Korean truce moves have been explained solely in terms of a conquered American nation seeking mercy at the hands of the conqueror. There is no sign so far of a change of heart or of a new vision.
  I shall not detain the Committee with details of the strength of the various Communist armies which are opposed to the free world. They, too, have been quoted fully already in the debate. I would just remind certain hon. Members oppo-

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  site of something else from Mr. Acheson's speech:
  " We do not have to match the Soviet armies man for man or gun for gun, since our mission is to deter not to attack. But we have a long way to go before we reach a safe deterrent level."
  In the face of the facts much—and I say this advisably because I think I am right in saying it—although not all of the Left wing in this country, led by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), have intensified their campaign to antagonise the U.S.A. in every conceivable way and to hamstring and undermine our own people's contribution to the keeping of the peace.
  Mr. Harold Davies: Rubbish.
  Lord John Hope: Indeed, if it were not so sad it would be amusing to watch the tug-of-war in Anglo-American relations going on with the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale and Colonel McCormick of Chicago on the one side and every sensible citizen of the free world on the other. Why do these men pursue this course? I will give the answer to that in a moment. It is a psychological dilemma from which they are definitely suffering, in which I think the explanation lies.
  I want for one moment to examine what it is they are doing. They are accusing the United States of consistent mistakes, of consistently blundering diplomacy and of being—I use the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale—" unreliable allies." Let us look at a few facts. Wise, statesmanlike action in Greece was taken and strong encouragement for Turkey has been given. Is that blundering diplomacy?
  What about the part America played in the Berlin airlift? It prevented Berlin from being over-run by the Russians. The Marshall Plan revived Europe and gave her new hope and economic stability. The Atlantic Pact showed that the United States of America were in the business of world peace, and did not mean to get out of it. In Korea, the United Nations action was led promptly by the United States, and history will say that that was the first active expression of what was so often talked about but was never practised, collective security.
  Are those the actions of an unreliable ally? No, Sir. The real trouble with the right hon. Gentleman and his friends
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  is that on the biggest issues the United States have been right. That is their crime. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about China?"] In China the United States showed they were not fooled by Communist aggression, and because they were right we have been spared the terrible consequence of the Russian Armies occupying from Tromsoe to Gibraltar. We have not yet lost the trust of the United States, but this country must make up its mind where are and who are its real friends. Personally, I think it has made it up, and it is in an optimistic frame of mind that I offer a constructive suggestion as to how things can be improved. In this I speak for several of my hon. Friends as well as for myself. While I admire the spirit behind the efforts made to federate this country with the United States, I believe it to be misguided and impracticable of attainment at this moment.
  Mr. Harold Davies: Whose proposal is it? Is it the United States?
  Lord John Hope: There are those in both countries who have repeatedly urged it. Such a political move at the moment is unrealistic with its deep and inevitable constitutional changes and unpredictable results at a time of crisis. [Interruption.] I will listen to the speech of the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) in silence when he addresses the Committee, if he will do the same for me. We should stick to the practical possibilities and reinforce our strength rather than increase our weakness.
  I proceed from two propositions: the first proposition I put before the Committee is that without the power of the United States the free world has no hope whatever of survival. Secondly, without Anglo-American agreement on foreign policy that power will be largely wasted. What I should like to see as our aim is, quite simply, a common Anglo-American foreign policy. To attain that there should be meetings at regular intervals between the Foreign Secretary of this country and the Secretary of State of the United States accompanied by the Defence Ministers of each country. Also, the combined Chiefs of Staff Committee should be reconstituted.
  The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation remains intact, and the idea that I have put to the Foreign Secretary does

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  not cut across any present plans or activities. On the contrary, it breathes breath into the body to make it live. Initial Anglo-American accord on foreign policy will be welcomed by the Commonwealth, by Europe and by all our friends elsewhere, who must recognise that this unity of purpose is absolutely basic to their own interests. There would arise such a combination of power and experience in the cause of peace as could face a challenge anywhere by anyone.
  I should like to see the Government and the Labour Party, as they are in power and are responsible, taking the initiative, but I do not think they can and I do not think they will. Here is the dilemma to which I referred at the outset of my speech. The trouble may well be—I know it does not apply to every hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite—that emotionally many members of the Left wing in this country are still very close to the event which has inspired so much of their faith and progress, the Russian Revolution of 1917. Only with the greatest reluctance do they recognise that what they once thought marked the emancipation of mankind, in fact set a pattern for its spiritual and physical bondage. There is the real dilemma of the party opposite.
  Have they awakened from their dream? Perhaps they have, but there is a definite hangover at present which belies the efforts of some of them to do a good morning's work. It is perhaps time they went back to bed and let others take charge, who are fitter for the job. Time is short, and we cannot let things drift any longer. There is much to do. If we mean to do it, it can be done.
  7.49 p.m.
  Mr. Joseph Hale: My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mr. Baird) apologised to the Committee for having intervened in a foreign affairs debate after being only six years in the House. Almost in the same breath he said that he was not an expert on the subject. That is something for which I feel he has no need to apologise, because I know of no expert yet who has accurately forecast the trend of events in foreign affairs, and the mass of experts are but self-styled experts who draw their prestige from their own opinions of themselves.
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  It is not my wish to travel over the whole field of international affairs but to confine myself to one aspect which affects in a very deep way the people whom I have the honour to represent in the House. My constituency, like several others, is a part of Lancashire, and one need only mention Japan in Lancashire to see well up in the people a deep feeling of animosity towards the Japanese.
  There are, perhaps, two reasons for this, and they are sufficiently recent to remain fresh in the minds of Lancashire people. When Singapore fell during the war, many of Lancashire's proudest sons fell into Japanese hands. We waited long years before we learned of the terrible deaths that many of them suffered at the hands of the Japanese, who had no respect whatever for international law or obligations and even lacked what we consider to be the essentials of humanity. When the people of Lancashire look at the draft Treaty and find in Chapter III, Article 5, that Japan is to be allowed to re-arm without any specific restriction on her re-armament, is it to be wondered that they dread that what happened before may very well happen again?
  Of course, in this Lancastrians are no different from most other Englishmen. We are poor haters, and we dislike carrying hatred and bitterness over the years. But I sometimes wonder whether our American friends realise how deep these feelings really are. I remember laughing with many other people, in the days at the close of the war, at the idea of a certain Errol Flynn having won the war in the Far East. At this moment, however, I am not so sure that he did not do so, because the content of the Treaty caters largely for the American view of Japan of the future, a view which I consider to be purely artificial.
  The ties that at present bind Japan to America are artificial. The Japanese are an Asiatic people and, whether we like it or not, the real future of Japan is bound up with Asia and not with America. Lancashire, of course, remembers those unhappy days before the war when men stood in groups at street corners and could only afford to buy cheap Japanese shirts, while in their own hands was the skill to produce shirts that excelled the Japanese in quality.
  It is not a good thing constantly to be looking back. I know that the majority

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  of people in this country wish for a happy future for the Japanese, but if this Treaty teaches us one lesson above all others, it is that there are many things in international relationships for which treaties cannot cater. Many people in Lancashire imagined that when a Peace Treaty with Japan became a reality, there would in some vague way be in the Treaty a restriction upon the Japanese economic system. I do not mind confessing that I, too, felt that we should be able to do something to curb what we believed was grossly unfair competition. Since the publication of the draft of the Treaty, I, like most other hon. Members, have done a lot of deep thinking on this point. To be honest, I have not found how we could have included in the Treaty clauses that would have ensured the desired result.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) gave to the Committee a picture of the way in which many Japanese industrialists are thinking. They see in the re-establishment of their sovereignty a chance once again to depress the standards of living and working conditions of their people. I am bound again to admit that I do not think there is anything we could have included in the Treaty that would have stopped the Japanese industrialists from taking advantage of a labour system not half so well organised as our own.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: The hon. Member used the expression "a labour system not half so well organised as our own." Is not that rather a deceptive phrase? Is not the real point that the optimum, raising it to its highest point, cost of living of a Japanese must inevitably be much lower than ours?
  Mr. Hale: I am glad that the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. W. Fletcher) has reminded me of that, because it brings home the impossibility of defining what are unfair trading conditions.
  Mr. Fletcher: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Hale: If the Japanese worker were to be put into conditions of luxury tomorrow, he would still produce goods far cheaper than we produce them in Lancashire. We must realise that.
  But, of course, a lot of Lancashire business men—and the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe will, of course, be
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  very familiar with this—have in recent months been agitating about the Congo Basin Treaties. I rather think that when we are considering those Treaties, we forget the purposes for which they were made. They were not made to provide a market in that area for Lancashire or for anyone else. They were made in the interests of the inhabitants of that region, and today, when we talk of colonial development and of raising the standards of life of backward people, we put ourselves in the position that we cannot say to the people of the Congo Basin or of South-East Asia, "You wear either an expensive Lancashire shirt or no shirt at all." What we have to aim at in our foreign affairs is the healing of what might be for the East, at any rate, one of the most tragic wars they have ever known.
  Japan is cut off from the Chinese mainland. China is a natural market for Japanese goods. The other natural outlets for her products—India and Pakistan —are not going to be the outlets in the future that they were in the past, for these Powers themselves are industrialising rather fast. What the Treaty actually does is to warn the people of Lancashire what is coming. It is no use dressing up the situation. We have in the Treaty a warning that before long we shall have to face the full brunt of Japanese competition.
  I would ask my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, were he present, that when he goes to San Francisco he should impress upon our American friends that we would like to be quite clear about their intentions for Japan in the future. What drives them at this moment to this Treaty with the Japanese? Is it because they are sick and tired of maintaining the Japanese economy and want once again to see Japan a viable State? Is that the over-riding condition, or does America really want Japan to take what, after all, I suppose, is her legitimate place in the comity of nations?
  My hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale said that the people of Lancashire remember February of this year, when the allocation of cotton that went to Japan far exceeded that which came to Europe. It would be unfortunate if the people of Lancashire were allowed to gain the impression that, in addition to the industrial potential of Japan, a cheap producing country, they are to be

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  faced also with discrimination in the field of raw materials, which would, of course, make the whole position intolerable.
  I believe that an honest attempt has been made to arrive at a liberal Treaty. We all know that in the past treaties of another kind never produced the result which we hoped they would. We sincerely hope that the present Treaty will justify its being a liberal one. It still remains to be seen whether our friends, the Americans, who have so much say in the matter of raw materials today, will see that Lancashire people really get a square deal.
  That is all we ask. We realise that we cannot indefinitely keep Japan out of the international market. What we do urge is that the Foreign Secretary, in his negotiations with the Americans, should make quite sure that we are given the chance to compete, because we realise that long after Japan has finished producing cheap cotton yarn Lancashire will still be in a position to give to the world yarn of a quality Japan will find it hard to compete against in that respect.
  Much of the work that is being done and has been done towards the raising of the standard of life of colonial people and people in South-East Asia will be lost unless we are prepared to allow Japan to export to those markets. The only economy we can protect against being flooded with cheap goods by Japan is our own. We are not in a position to do it overseas. All we Lancashire Members should make it quite clear in our constituencies that, much though politicians may do in helping Lancashire in the international field in the future, there remains for the industrialists and the workers of Lancashire the task of seeing that productivity in that county is raised higher and higher in the coming years.
  8.2 p.m.
  Commander Noble: The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. J. Hale) said he was very sorry that the Foreign Secretary was not here to hear his remarks. I should be quite satisfied if one of the three representatives of the Foreign Office were here. It should be possible in this debate for one of them to be on the Government Front Bench all the time.
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  I have the greatest sympathy with what the hon. Member for Rochdale said about Lancashire. Echoing the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), I hope that the Government will go into this question most carefully and be very cautious in order to see that Lancashire, in the words of the hon. Member, gets a square deal.
  I wish to turn to another aspect of the Treaty namely compensation for civilians in the Far East. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Brigadier Smyth) went very carefully into the question of compensation for prisoners of war. I should like for a few moments to deal with the case of the civilians. I was very surprised to hear the Foreign Secretary say in his speech that the figures of the compensation amounts were given today in answer to a Question by the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd). When I looked at the Order Paper I found that it was a Written Question for written answer, and I wondered whether that was not one of those little games played by Government Departments which mean that they do not want unpleasant figures to be put before the House.
  Mr. John Hynd: Might I tell the hon. and gallant Member that I had four or five Questions on the Order Paper, so it was inevitable that some of them must be non-Oral ones.
  Commander Noble: As I said, I wondered, but I am glad to hear what the hon. Gentleman has said. It was only through the courtesy of the hon. Member for Attercliffe that I was able to obtain those figures. It is a great pity that the Government did not let us have them either in the Debate or beforehand, as they would have answered many of the questions put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood. It appears from the written answer that the immediate sum involved will be under £1 million, and also that there will be no per capita payment to prisoners of war, that the money will be paid to the charities that administer that side of the Services. It was a great pity that we did not know that in this debate.
  Turning to the civilians, under the Treaty as at present drafted there will be many British nationals who will get no compensation whatever for their loss of

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  property in the Far East. They seem to fall between two stools. People who lost their property in this country through bombing received compensation through the private chattels scheme. People in Malaya are getting compensation through the local scheme there. People in Burma, the Philippines and China are at present to get nothing whatever in compensation, either for internment or the treatment they received, or for the property they lost.
  I have had a lot of correspondence with the Foreign Office on this subject. I should like to quote one paragraph of a letter of 10th May, 1950, from the Minister of State on the subject of internment. He wrote:
  " As a matter of international law and in the absence of any specific provision in any armistice or treaty of peace, the fact that a British subject has been interned by a foreign State in consequence of the entry into war against His Majesty of that foreign State, of itself gives no right of claim, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, against the foreign State concerned. His Majesty's Government are unable to assume any liability in respect of claims by civilian British subjects in respect of internment, of itself, since a belligerent has the unquestionable right to intern aliens of enemy nationality."
  I quite agree with that, but they have the right to be treated decently when interned and to he compensated for any loss of property they may have incurred.
  It is all very well for the Government to say now that Japanese assets are not large enough to pay any compensation, but have they really done enough in other fields to try to obtain more compensation? I take the example of the Philippines and quote the case of a constituent of mine who was with her family in Shanghai. They were passing through Manila on the day of Pearl Harbour. They never intended to go to the Philippines, but as that was the day of Pearl Harbour they could not go any further. They lost everything they had and spent the rest of the war there in internment. They are to get nothing.
  They applied to the United States to be covered by the Philippines Rehabilitation Act, 1946. They were told that as they had not lived for five years before the war in the Philippines they would not get any. I took the matter up with the Foreign Office and was told on 19th July last year, in a letter from the Under-Secretary:
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  " On the 15th June, His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington was instructed to continue to press for national treatment for British nationals under the Philippines Rehabilitation Act, 1946, but he has not so far been able to report any success."
  I do not know what is the position in regard to that matter now, or whether the Government are still continuing to press.
  It seems to me that it should have been possible for British nationals to have been covered by the American Act because the numbers of British nationals caught in the Philippines must have been very small in comparison with those of the United States and of the Philippines involved. Surely it would have been possible to have reached some arrangement with the United States, perhaps on a reciprocal basis. If that could have been done in the case of the Philippines Act should not there have been other courses of action open to the Government to obtain compensation other than through Japanese assets?
  In the past, when people raised this question, the Government said, "Wait for the Japanese Peace Treaty." We have waited for it, and these people are not getting compensation under it. I hope that the Government will not let the matter rest there, and that they will pursue the other avenues such as I have suggested in regard to the Philippines. I hope that when the Foreign Secretary goes to San Francisco to discuss and perhaps amend this Treaty, he will bear these points very much in mind and see if something better cannot be done for these people who at the moment are to get nothing.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Yates: I hope the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) will understand if I do not follow his argument. The subject he raised is certainly most important and has been fully discussed, but I promised to speak for only a few minutes and there are one or two issues to which I wish to refer.
  One would imagine, from speeches made by hon. Members opposite in the main, that the only questions they have in their minds and the only thoughts they have are re-armament, air bases, or defence. As far as I could understand in this debate this afternoon, there has been no real constructive thought given to what might be the prospect of bringing about a more peaceful solution to the

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  problems which confront us. [Interruption.] I shall do my best, although I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) will not agree with me.
  An hon. Member for one of the Scottish divisions, speaking earlier, suggested that the United States of America were right on the big issues. I think that if America had been with us in regard to the recognition of the Peoples' Republic of China, we certainly might have avoided the bloodshed which has taken place since. I cannot accept that it is right for this Government to submit itself entirely to the mind of America.
  I noticed that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) said specifically—and I thought we were going to get something constructive—that what we wanted was an honourably negotiated peace with no blood-letting. I think it important that we should make up our minds exactly what are the conditions under which we would agree on what is regarded as an honourable peace. I do not think we are likely to get it in the atmosphere of fear that has been created so far and which seems to hamper the prospects of an agreement. It seems to me that in the last few foreign affairs debates the more we have concentrated on re-armament the greater has been the fear and the more the international situation has worsened. It is called arriving at peace through strength, but it seems that the more we go in that direction the more perilous the situation becomes.
  I understand, of course, that Russia has great fear of the number of bases which are being established in the world. They refer to the United States of America having access to Greenland, Iceland and bases in Britain and in Japan. In reading a United States publication, "News and World Report," which is a well-known Washington journal, I saw that on 25th May this year there were two references to which I would draw the attention of the Committee. The writer said:
  " Atomic bombs available to the bomber forces of the U.S. now number at least 1,000. There are 10 or more bombs for each major industrial centre of Russia. Professional opinion is that at least 7 out of 10 of these bombs could be delivered on their targets… On the seas, even more than in the air, the power of this country dominates. Seventeen aircraft carriers, 700 fighting ships are in service. Great fleets of naval vessels remain in
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  mothballs ready to be taken out as needed. Aircraft carriers in service are capable of carrying bombers, themselves capable of carrying atomic bombs, close to the industrial heart of Russia. Atomic energy, before long, will be powering the first of a fleet of American submarines of ultra-modern type."
  Of course, if that appeared in the new Moscow publication, "News," as something done against this country, we would be very frightened and nervous about it. I think we must understand that this kind of preparation must create fear in the minds of people in Russia.
  To add to that there are the bases to be obtained in Spain. I observed when the Foreign Secretary was speaking this afternoon and said that one had to consider whether or not the strategic advantages outweighed the political advantages, and he assumed they did and that the political advantages were certainly less. Nevertheless, hon. Members opposite said "Nonsense." They ought to have read the leading article in the Sunday "Observer," certainly not a Socialist paper, but what one should call an independent paper, which was that this American move in Spain
  " Inflicts a damaging blow on our prestige and dignity. It weakens the Atlantic Treaty. It introduces a factor of intrigue and jealousy into Western Europe and opens the way for Europe's Fascist in every country to compete with Europe's democrats for American favours."
  The article concludes:
  " It is perhaps not too far-fetched to foresee the possibility that Fascism will gain new vigour in Europe from an agreement which seems at present to require no political or ideological concessions from General Franco but leaves him openly triumphant."
  I congratulate the Foreign Secretary on the stand he has made on this and I hope he will continue to do so. We read in the "Manchester Guardian" a Press statement by President Truman in which he says:
  " Our total security programme costs have now reached an annual rate of more than 35,000 million dollars."
  (Which is £12,500 million.) The article states:
  " Within the next twelve months aircraft deliveries are to be tripled and the tank automotive programme increased to four times the present rate of deliveries.… It now appears as we review our strategic situation in the light of world events, that these goals may need to be raised whether or not we have an armistice in Korea."
  I wish to ask the Foreign Secretary whether or not he can seize on some other

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  ropes that may appear on the horizon. Those to which I have referred are perilous. If this path is going to lead to peace, I have never known anything more frightening in its prospect. It is not a policy of peace through strength but a policy of peril through stupidity.
  There are other signs on the horizon. For instance, we had Mr. Malik's speech from which the present discussions are proceeding in Korea. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has himself given an interview to "Pravda," I understand. We are moving forward. It would not be a bad idea if he were to go a little further and have a talk in Moscow with some of the representatives there. The suggestion was made that high level talks surely ought not to be over. I believe that if the Foreign Secretary will seize some opportunities, for instance, to get Mr. Malik to explain what he meant—[Interruption.] yes, apart from what he referred in regard to Korea—what he meant by a desire to reduce arms, and I ask whether or not we cannot seize all these opportunities, with the latest opportunity we find in this paper "News" introduced by Moscow. The "Manchester Guardian" spoke of that paper in this way:
  " Mr. Tarle's article is important not because of what he says… but because of the way he says it. Recrimination is reduced to the apparently irreducible minimum. The argument is reasoned, the language is not discourteous."
  I should have thought that we ought to welcome this; but if we do not welcome any suggestion that it is possible to have an agreement, then are we to put ourselves in the position of saying that nothing proposed by Russia can be accepted? Let hon. Members opposite say what is the constructive point of their policy. There is no constructive policy submitted by them. They submit a policy of building up arms which, in the end, must lead inevitably to war.
  Mr. Arthur Colegate: Nonsense.
  Mr. Yates: I should like to know of any case in history where an armaments race has not led to war.
  Mr. M. Philips Price: Would the hon. Gentleman admit that the fact that we were not armed sufficiently at the beginning of the Second World War and Germany was armed, helped to bring about that war?
  Mr. Yates: I do not think so. I think that it was the policy pursued between the wars which brought about the Second World War. We can go back to the Versailles Treaty and find that the seeds of the next war were there. It is not a question of the building up of armaments. When once we resort to armaments, as Earl Grey said, inevitably it leads to war. I have made my position clear in this House. I opposed conscription and rearmament. I want some kind of constructive policy which will have a psychological effect and which will drive out the fear which will lead to an inevitable clash of arms.
  I think that the speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was constructive. I do not agree with all its implications. I hope that he will resist the warlike tendencies of some hon. Members opposite.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Nonsense.
  Mr. Yates: If ever a Foreign Secretary was justified in the speech he made at the weekend, my right hon. Friend was. I would not take a lesson from the Leader of the Opposition when he refers to my right hon. Friends as leeches which, I think, are blood-sucking worms. If that is the language of a peaceful statesman who asks for the responsibility of the office of Prime Minister, then heaven help this country if we are to be governed with that kind of spirit. I ask for a constructive policy. I hope that my right hon. Friend will seize a new initiative. Let us have some high power talks. Let us make some real contribution which will destroy the fear which otherwise will lead inevitably to war.
  8.24 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Colegate: I do not intend, especially at this time of night, to enter into speculative propositions as to what Spain, Russia or other people will do. I want to deal with one serious practical point. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be good enough to consider it. I share to some extent the apprehensions of various hon. Members about Japanese competition. I think that the matter should be cleared up rather more specifically than has been done so far.
  The Preamble of the draft Peace Treaty with Japan puts forward as one of the purposes of the Treaty that it will enable Japan

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  "… in public and private trade and commerce to conform to internationally accepted fair practices."
  Those are words; but fortunately for us those words during the last 50 or 60 years have been interpreted by a series of conventions and agreements, to some of which Japan was a party. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in an answer which I received this morning, confirmed the fact that the Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property signed in London on 2nd June, 1934, will come back into operation, so far as Japan is concerned, when this Treaty is signed.
  That Convention deals with what is known as industrial property—with models, industrial designs, trade marks, trade names, patents, and so on. On the whole, Japan kept that Convention rather better than some people appeared to think. On the patent side, Japan's practice was not too bad. Unfortunately, a more serious agreement—the International Agreement relating to false indications of origin which was also signed in its revised form in London in 1934, was not signed by Japan.
  That has proved one of the worst difficulties with regard to Japanese competition. To show how she behaved, I will give one or two examples. She created a small village called "Macclesfield," and silk manufactured near there was stamped "Made in Macclesfield." She went further. She founded another village called "U.S.A." Electric lamps were exported from that Japanese village stamped "Made in U.S.A." That is the sort of thing which we must stop. We have an instrument at hand which the Industrial Property Department of the Board of Trade knows very well, in the International Agreement regarding false indications of origin.
  I strongly urge the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to see that this draft Peace Treaty with Japan not only includes the adherence of Japan to the Convention about industrial property generally but also adherence to the agreement which deals with false indications of origin. There is a difficulty. Let me be honest with the Committee. I am sorry to say that while that agreement about false indications of origin is signed by 23 civilised powers, the United States of America have refused to sign it. This is an opportunity. It has always been the
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  object of those interested in the protection of industrial property that we should get the United States to sign that agreement.
  In the International Chambers of Commerce and in other ways in recent years the United States have made great steps forward in co-operating with other nations.
  Mr. Follick: Does the hon. Gentleman know that in the U.S.A. there is a city by the name of Toledo which manufactures steel, while the finest steel in Spain was manufactured in Toledo?
  Mr. Colegate: Yes. I thank the hon. Member for confirming what I have been saying. We want to stamp out these practices. I urge the Foreign Secretary to see that that international agreement is brought into the other agreements which are mentioned and Articles 15 and 12, and, in that connection—I cannot give my reasons at length, because time is so short—I beg the Foreign Secretary to see whether he can make it quite clear that Article 15 is the operative article. The Industrial Property Department of the Board of Trade knows all about this point.
  In conclusion, let me say that some people may ask what is the good of getting Japan into the International Labour Office and into the International Convention and other international agreements. My answer is that, if we get a signature there, we shall have a basis upon which to work in order to bring up the standard, not only of labour, but of international commercial honesty in Japan, and I think that we shall get the support of the United States in trying to bring that about.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: The hon. Member is an optimist.
  Mr. Colegate: I am an optimist, and I have reasons for my optimism. I have been concerned with this subject since 1925, and I have seen a great growth of international morality in relation to patents and design. If we can bring Japan back into the family of civilised nations, we shall do something, though not everything, I agree, to allay the apprehensions in those many industries in this country which had the mortification of seeing their high quality goods imitated by cheap Japanese production and stamped "Made in Macclesfield" or

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  " Made in Great Britain." I hope that the Secretary of State will be good enough to consider this point with the Industrial Property Department of the Board of Trade in order to see whether, in that respect, the draft Treaty with Japan may not be improved.
  8.31 p.m.
  Mr. Assheton: Except for the problems of the Middle East, this debate has ranged over a very wide field—Germany, Spain, Russia and the Japanese Treaty.
  So far as Spain is concerned, I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) made our position quite clear. We must not allow emotion to restrain common sense, and moral indignation is not a constructive policy. No question of the inclusion of Spain in the North Atlantic Pact arises, and we have no right to object if the United States pursues a strategic plan to reinforce the West, which might save us great loss in time of war. I think the leading article in today's issue of "The Times" ended on the right note. It said:
  " Allies who are wise in their counsel command more attention than those who are merely stubborn in their opposition."
  On the question of the Japanese Peace Treaty, before I come to deal with what I consider the major point, there are one or two minor points which I would like to clear up. We have had two interesting speeches from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Brigadier Smyth) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) on the subject of compensation for prisoners of war and others, but it was a little difficult to understand from the debate exactly what reply had been given to a question, which apparently was a written question, this afternoon on the subject of compensation.
  If it is possible for the right hon. Gentleman who will wind up the debate to give the Committee a clearer indication than we have had so far, I think it would be useful. On the basis of what I gathered from the exchanges that took place, it did not seem to me as if the arrangements were likely to prove at all satisfactory.
  There is one other minor point I want to raise on the Japanese Treaty, and it is to ask the right hon. Gentleman—I do not know whether he can give me an answer
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  now—whether there is any provision in this Treaty—if so, I have not seen it—on the question of Japanese loot taken to Japan from the South-East Asian territories, and much of which has since disappeared. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any information about it which can be made available to those from whom property was stolen.
  Now, to come to the major question, on which all Lancashire hon. Members must be specially concerned, it is not to be wondered at that there is a good deal of anxiety in Lancashire about this Japanese Treaty. Let us just remember for a moment the background to the view which we in Lancashire see.
  The history of the Lancashire cotton trade is a very long one. It is a history of great success and of great distress. First of all came the great inventions and the escape from the slavery of hand spinning. These were the inventions of Hargreaves, who was a carpenter in Blackburn, of Crompton and Arkwright and Cartwright, and these great developments came nearly 150 years ago. Lancashire had good fortune at that time. Not only did she have great inventors, but the coal was at hand, the iron was nearby, she had good sea ports, the necessary water power, and soft water so dear to bleachers, dyers and printers. Above all, she was first in the field, and for 140 years she made tremendous progress.
  In 1913, the Lancashire cotton trade was the greatest and most successful in the whole world. In that year Lancashire wove 8,000 million yards of cloth. Of those 8,000 million yards she exported 7,000 million yards—one-eighth to clothe the people of this country and seven-eighths exported to the rest of the world. Capital had been assembled, mills were built and machines put in. The workers were industrious, quick-witted and quick-fingered, and there was also a great merchanting system full of adventurous, alert and energetic men who had personal contacts in every part of the world and a name for fair dealing. That great system, alas, has been largely destroyed by the destruction of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange.
  In 1913, 3,000 million out of those 7,000 million yards went to India, and in that year Lancashire's exports were 18 times those of Japan. Who in 1913 would have thought that the Lancashire cotton

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  trade stood on the edge of a precipice? Let people who are too satisfied now think of that. Then came the Great War, and in the 20 years that followed it we experienced what Godfrey Armitage called the "most terrible retreat in the history of industry." With it came untold suffering gallantly borne and only fully understood by those who lived in Lancashire and suffered.
  To what was that due? To what had the success been due? It had been due to two things; first, to the free entry of Lancashire cotton into the markets of the world, and, secondly, to the cheapest production in the whole world. That was the basis of Lancashire's success, but in the years of disaster both those advantages were lost. India which had helped us so well in the war was promised a tariff. Indian tariffs were put up and by the time the 1939 war broke out that 3,000 million yards which we used to send to India had fallen to 70 million. Practically all the exports to India had gone.
  At the same time, after the 1914–18 war, Japan had come into the cotton trade paying one-fifth of the wages paid in Lancashire, thus beating Lancashire in prices. There was deep bitterness in the hearts of Lancashire folk. The operatives saw the spindles and the mills becoming idle, and one employer after another went bankrupt. Eight hundred cotton mills were closed in those years, 21 million spindles were broken up, and 360,000 looms were abandoned. It was an unparalleled disaster, and by 1935 the exports of Japan exceeded ours by 30 per cent., whereas before the war our exports had been 18 times those of Japan.
  To Lancashire operatives the Japanese were blacklegs paying low wages, working long hours and employing child labour. Lancashire said that it was not fair, and can one wonder that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee today have reminded us of that?
  Bitter memories have been stirred, and the thought of renewed competition from those whom we have just defeated in war at a great price in suffering, blood and treasure is a very serious matter to every one in Lancashire. But Lancashire people are wise, I think, as well as generous, and they do not wish to impose humiliating conditions upon a conquered race. Nor
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  do they wish to drive them to seek succour elsewhere. Therefore, there is much to be said for a magnanimous settlement, but I cannot be expected to go to Blackburn and say, "Long live Japan."
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I do not think Lancashire people, who are as generous as any in the world, would mind of this Peace Treaty were based on magnanimity, but to anyone who has been following the Press in countries where they have been allowed to discuss this Peace Treaty—unlike us here—it is obvious that everything has been subordinated to the military needs of America, including the trade of Britain.
  Mr. Assheton: The hon. Member has expressed his view, but he has not had time to make a very full intervention and I cannot accept that view. I say that although Lancashire is wise and does not wish to impose humiliating conditions, none the less the people of Lancashire are made very anxious by this Treaty. Before the Foreign Secretary and his colleagues go to San Francisco, they must make absolutely certain that every possible step is taken to safeguard our position. It is our duty here, and especially the duty of Lancashire members, to see that these matters are closely examined and that every reasonable safeguard is devised. There is no representative of the Board of Trade on the Government Front Bench at the moment, but I hope that the Ministers concerned will take note of what has been said.
  As my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden said earlier today, the great dilemma is how Japan is to feed her millions without inflicting ruinous competition on others. Taking the long view, the question we have to ask ourselves is, "What can cure poverty in the East?" There are three possibilities. In the country, improvement of agriculture and in the towns, machines. Is it not possible also that perhaps one day the East will adopt the same attitude to family planning which has been adopted in the West? May they not think that better than the inevitable alternative, which is the destruction of millions of human beings by famine, pestilence and war.
  But all that is a long way off, and we are faced today with an immediate problem. We are faced with a position in which, as we have been told today, the

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  wages in Japan are at present lower than ours here. Woman labour in Japan is not receiving half what it is paid in Lancashire, and the men perhaps receive two-thirds. That at once raises the argument of unfair competition. But do not let us forget that we are not in the old days now. In those days, when we talked about unfair competition we in this country were paying higher wages than were paid anywhere in the world; but now we are not. Our standard of life is lower than it is in the United States or Canada, and we might expose ourselves to a like treatment from others if we are not very careful. Therefore, we must think twice about using that argument.
  I see the Government is wisely reserving the right to deny most favoured treatment to Japan, and the President of the Board of Trade has stated that for the present we must retain our freedom to protect our economy if necessary against abnormal and injurious competition. I am glad to know this. I note also that Japan has renounced her rights under the old Congo Basin Treaties, re-enacted substantially as they were after the war in 1919. So she will not any longer enjoy as a right the advantages of the open door for cheap textile goods in the markets of Equatorial Africa. But, as we have been reminded today, those Treaties were not made for the benefit of Lancashire. They were made for the benefit of Africa, and that is a point which we ought not to overlook.
  What of Japanese competition in our overseas markets? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden said, the principle of non-discrimination has whittled away preferential arrangements, and in any case we must not forget that a great many of Lancashire's exports go to countries where no preference arrangements can possibly help us.
  We have been anxious in Lancashire about American policy with regard to the allocation of cotton. When the United States introduced allocations Japan received remarkably favourable allocations. She got 98½ per cent. of her imports in the previous year, and we got 45 per cent. I believe that one of the reasons given for the high rate of allocation to Japan was that she was to supply goods for the Korean war. Actual demand was less than was expected, and further supplies were, therefore, available for export trade, and although in May, 1950, it was estimated by the Japanese
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  that their exports of cotton cloths would increase by 10 per cent., in actual fact over the year the increase was 46 per cent.
  Japanese prices have now once again become highly competitive, and it seems that America is likely to support arrangements which can enable Japan to pay her way. With assured supplies of cotton from the United States, with increasing spindlage and with an increasing power supply, the Japanese cotton industry is getting into a strong position. There is always the possibility, too, which we must not overlook, that American policy might force Japan, or at any rate might require Japan, to cut off trade with China altogether and thus increase the need for Japan to compete in some of our other markets. Of course, Korea and China were the principal markets of Japan before the war.
  We in Lancashire must, therefore, impress upon any Government, whatever party is in power, the need for the utmost vigilance on our behalf. American capital and Japanese labour may be very formidable in combination. The dangers to our trade in the old days were of one kind. Today there are dangers of another kind, but they may also be very great, and it is clear, therefore, that in this field we must, above everything, rely upon Anglo-American co-operation. It is vital to us in every aspect of our foreign policy, and no more vital in any part of it than it is in this. Let us pray that there will be sufficient co-operation between our two great countries and Japan to steer Japanese commerce into channels which will do as little harm as possible to our trade in this country.
  It is good news, as we have been told today, that Japan has been re-admitted to the I.L.O. The report which the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) read to us was a revealing one, and those who read it in "The Times" have had much to think about. It makes one wonder whether the President of the Board of Trade is not perhaps a little naïve and a little overoptimistic. Before the war the Japanese under-cut our goods by cheapness due to low wages, long hours and child labour, and we want to know whether she will do it again. She says she will not, but we have to see that she keeps her word.

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  Before the war, we were forced, much against the grain, to limit in British Colonies the invasion of Japanese goods, by means of tariffs, quotas, licences and other devices. Since the war some thought in Lancashire has turned to the possibility of controlling world markets by agreement, and I believe that this is the principal solution proposed by the Japanese themselves. What will come of this proposal I do not know, but it is certainly one which should be carefully studied.
  I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is proposed to begin negotiations at once for a commercial treaty with Japan, as indicated in Article 12A of the draft Treaty. I want him also to tell us, if he can, about the arrangements for avoiding the pirating of trademarks and copyrights to which my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Colegate) referred. It is quite clear that if we are to look forward to some sort of order and stability in the cotton trade in the future, a great deal of hard work must be done and there must be patient negotiation both with America and Japan. Lancashire herself must see that she is capable of competing successfully both in quality—of which I have no doubt—and in price.
  I suppose there are few people who would deny that there is no more important duty laid upon the Government of this country than to maintain the most friendly possible relations with the United States. Friction with the United States or with our other friends in the world is the one thing we must avoid and, if I may say so, our position in the world would be greatly strengthened if our divisions at home were less marked.
  Before I sit down, I want to say a few words about Russia. I dealt with Spain at the beginning of my speech, and there is nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden said on the subject of German re-armament. In the course of the debate there have been many speeches about Russia. There were some disputes as to how many divisions the Russians have. One of my hon. Friends asked me how many divisions there were in the Labour Party, and I told him I did not know.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Middle-class unity.
  Mr. Assheton: Whether there are many or few, there are certainly a great many divisions in the Russian army, but the question upon which we in this country cannot make up our minds is—what is the Russian policy based upon? Is it based upon ideology and what Lord Salisbury called a fanatical enthusiasm for what she believes to be a new religion? Is it, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) suggested, based on blatant imperialism, or is it based on suspicion of the Western world? Or is it an amalgam of all three?
  In any case, we must show that in the West we are strong not only potentially, as some hon. Members below the Gangway have suggested, but also actually, in armed force. If the enemy is at your door it is not enough to have a great potential; you need to have actual force ready and available at the time. If we are nearer peace today it is because the West is stronger than it was.
  If, on the other hand, Russian policy is based on suspicion, then every effort must be made to remove that suspicion and to bring about a clearer understanding of our true position, a clearer understanding of our utterly peaceful and unaggressive intentions and the utterly peaceful and unaggressive intentions of the whole Western world. We wish the Foreign Secretary the best of luck in his efforts in that direction. But in any case the process will, I fear, be very slow. The tension may be prolonged, and our efforts can only be sustained and war can only be averted by building up the strength of our own people and that of other peoples in the world who love freedom and who hate tyranny.
  Communism is a hateful and a cruel and a false creed. To my mind, its impact upon the world has been more like the impact of Islam than anything else in history. Communism breeds on suffering and poverty, and it is sustained by demagogues, many of whom little understand its true implications. Let those who seek to stir up class strife hesitate before they do so, especially in these days.
  Love of freedom, I would remind the Committee, and hatred of tyranny, are not found in any one section of society. Who were the great leaders in the war for freedom, in the war against tyranny? Roosevelt, Churchill, Bevin. Did they all

  573
  come from one section of the people? We in England and in the English speaking nations have for many years—for centuries—striven for freedom, and we shall continue to strive for it. We are more likely to keep it if we have less suspicion of one another's motives and more readiness to believe that each and all of us—with but a handful, I hope, of exceptions —believe in freedom and will do our best to see that it is preserved in the world.
  8.57 p.m.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Younger): There has really, I think, been very little difference on principle expressed in this debate. So far as we have disagreed it has been almost wholly on matters of methods —with one exception, perhaps; that of the situation regarding Spain, about which I shall say something a little later. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), who opened the debate for the Opposition, listed three defects in the Government's policy in recent years. He said that there had not been enough sense of urgency; that Great Britain's voice had not been heard strongly enough; and he complained of a lack of political direction, and said, if I remember rightly, that he would give examples; but I waited for the examples in vain.
  I think really the truth is, when one hears these criticisms made, that one is bound to reflect that since the war we have unfortunately, and, I think, not through our fault, very largely been in the position of reacting to policies varying from non-co-operation to open hostility on the part of Powers with whom at the end of the war we had hoped to cooperate fully; and it may be true that we have been somewhat slow in recognising that, instead of being co-operative, they were non co-operative and were even prepared to be hostile. I doubt very much whether that is a criticism, even if it is a fact. It might have been very much more unwise to have done other than wait with the utmost patience for co-operation until it was clear that we had to take measures on our own account.
  I think that this has not been a debate which I should seek to wind up on a very high note. I think that there are a number of things about which hon. Members have expressed anxiety and about which they have asked for information, and I
  574
  should like to try, as far as I may, to satisfy their requests.
  I should like to spend some time to begin with upon the Japanese Peace Treaty. That, of course, offers an example of our having had to take a situation as we found it—a situation we would certainly have wished to have been otherwise, and one which compelled us to accept certain things in the Treaty which my right hon. Friend recognises to be only second best.
  I refer particularly, of course, to the impossibility of including China as a party to this multilateral Treaty. Second to that there is the doubt—to put it at its very lowest—whether the Soviet Union, another Power inevitably with a great influence in the Far East, would be prepared to participate. That is unfortunate, but the evolution of our relations with Japan cannot stand still; our relations with her must develop, and all Powers, including even the two I have mentioned, have for some time past been pressing, as we have been, for an early treaty.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) at one stage of his speech asked whether Japan had reached the point where she was ready to recover her sovereignty. That, of course, is a matter for argument. In the nature of things, we probably cannot fully know the answer until she has regained her sovereignty, but I should just say this to my hon. Friend.
  We have reached the conclusion—and I think all the Powers concerned share our view—that whatever measure of success the Allied occupation may have had in these six years, there is nothing to be gained from continuing it. If Japan has not evolved satisfactorily in the way we would wish, then another few months or another few years of Allied occupation will certainly not make her evolve any further in that direction. Indeed, so much is that the case, that the good work might be undone by resentment against the Allied occupation, which is inevitable; occupation is bitter to any people, and the reaction against it may well become stronger and give food for a new nationalism.
  We all agree, I think, that many of these problems, which have made it difficult to have a wholly satisfactory Treaty, have arisen out of the Korean war and the actual fighting in the Far East. That

  575
  is what has made a more comprehensive settlement of the whole Japanese and Far Eastern problem impossible. But that is no reason for refusing to settle what can be settled. We think it is time to end the war with Japan, and time for Japan to assume full responsibility for her future. My right hon. Friend referred to this as a liberal treaty, and although the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) complained of the misuse of the word "liberal," I am sure he would not deny us the right to use it in this instance.
  One hon. Member appeared to think that this was an American dictated Treaty. I can assure him that that is far from being the case. There has, in fact, been only one point—that of Chinese representation, to which I have already referred —on which we and our American friends held diametrically opposed views. We both realised when we went into the discussions for getting this draft Treaty that it would probably prove impossible to reach agreement on that point. But concessions were made on both sides; there was no dictatorial attitude on the part of Mr. John Foster Dulles and the Americans here, and we think that the compromise which has been reached, although only a second best, reflects credit on the attitude of both sides, who held such opposite opinions. On all other matters of principle, I think it is fair to say that the Americans and ourselves have been basically in agreement.
  There have, of course, been differences of emphasis, but we have agreed with them that, if Japan is to recover her sovereignty, then there is nothing to be gained from inflicting a lot of pinpricks. Theoretically, I suppose, one might hold a defeated enemy down indefinitely, but neither the American nor the British people conduct their affairs in a manner which would make that possible or thinkable. Once that is admitted, it is surely right to have a liberal policy with the minimum of pinpricks, the minimum of things which will cause future resentment.
  Moreover, it has to be remembered that this Treaty, unlike many treaties in the past, comes after a long interval after the end of the war. Six years have passed, and this Treaty will not come at an early stage of the occupation, but will mark the end of it. Therefore, we have to think particu-
  576
  larly how restrictive clauses in the Treaty would in any event be enforced. We think that there is very much more chance of getting implementation of undertakings which may subsequently be entered into, and much less chance of a nationalist reaction, if security and economic arrangements are put, as far as possible, on a voluntary basis, and entered into by Japan when her sovereignty is regained, rather than that any attempt should be made to impose it in the Treaty.
  Very few questions have been asked about the security side of the Treaty. I think almost the only one was that asked by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, who asked about the future of South Sakhalin. The Treaty does not attempt to dispose finally of the territories which are being taken from Japan. Under the Yalta Agreement, it was agreed that South Sakhalin should go to the Soviet Union, and in fact forces of the Soviet Union have occupied this territory ever since.
  In the Treaty, Japan renounces her right, but nothing is actually said about the destination and final settlement of this area, or indeed of a number of other areas. It would, of course, have been desirable if this Treaty could have been for a full Far Eastern settlement and if all these things had been explicitly stated. That is not the case, and South Sakhalin, with the other territories, is left in the status quo, and will no doubt be settled when the whole of the Far Eastern problem is eventually cleared up.
  Mr. Duncan Sandys: Can the right hon. Gentleman say where will reside the sovereignty of these territories which Japan has renounced, but which are not allocated to anybody else?
  Mr. Younger: I should not like to enter into the question of international law on that situation. It is somewhat anomalous. The fact is that the situation will be neither better nor worse than it has been in the last year or two. We do not know what the final settlement will be, and that is one of the things that has been left open, as it has been in the case of Formosa. I would not like to say what the juridical situation is, but this is left as it was before the draft Peace Treaty was produced.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Is it not a fact that both from strategic considerations and from the point of view of the fishing rights, Sakhalin Island is very important?
  Mr. Younger: I think it is, and I do not think there is much doubt under whose jurisdiction it is to remain. At Yalta it was agreed that the sovereignty should be transferred to the Soviet Union but to tie these things up would require a full settlement, which we cannot at the moment reach.
  On the economic side, I agree that it is likely that Japanese competition, which was such a difficult problem for us and especially for Lancashire and other areas as well will again become a real thing. We know that Japan's position is that she must export if she is to live at all, and I can assure hon. Members on all sides of the Committee that the Government and especially the Foreign Office and the Board of Trade are fully aware of the anxieties that are felt in trade and industry in Britain. I do not quarrel with the list of the dangers and anxieties expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton). He expressed the views of Lancashire on this subject in a very earnest manner, and was extremely reasonable in his appreciation of what could be done and what could not be done —I am afraid it is largely what could not be done—to ensure complete safeguards.
  The trouble is to say how such a problem could be effectively met in the Peace Treaty. On the one hand, we have the fact that Japan relies on her exports. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary gave the figures of the money that was poured into that country by the Americans since 1945 to keep her going at all. Then we have the diverse interests of members of the Commonwealth, Asian countries and our Colonial Territories, many of whom are desperately anxious to have the maximum possible quantity of Japanese goods, because they have a low living standard. Though we have been consulting with all the members of the Commonwealth, we have been playing a leading part—in a sense, acting in the consultations as a trustee for all those people. Therefore, we cannot contemplate a restriction under the Treaty which would prevent would-be consumers from getting the goods they want, particularly when many
  578
  of them, in fact, are at the present time not obtainable from British industry.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: In the annual reports of the Trades Union Congress year after year there have been constructive proposals for dealing with this problem. Surely the time has come when something internationally should be done about a fair wages clause and fair conditions.
  Mr. Younger: I was coming to that aspect of the problem, which, of course, is a very real one. Before I do so, I should like to mention one further difficulty which again is difficult of enforcement. There are those who contemplate that there should have been incorporated in the Peace Treaty some hard and fast upper limit of production in some particular Japanese industries. Hon. Members will realise that that is a thing which it is very difficult to envisage being enforced for a long period of time. If it is not enforced, it is no good inserting that into the peace settlement.
  What safeguards have we got? I think that we must agree that anything we do is bound to involve some risk. We cannot be wholly saved from Japanese competition. In particular, we cannot be saved if we revert to the old situation in which primary producers all over the world are suffering from slumps and consequent low purchasing power. There should be room for Japanese exports as well as for our own. This is a complicated problem and to pursue it would take one into the whole realm of economic trade and commercial policy of all the nations of the world.
  As regards unfair practices, particularly that of copying, I was asked whether that was covered in this Treaty. The declaration which the Japanese Government will make, which is attached to the Treaty, does cover the two international conventions which, I understand, deal with this matter. The first is the International Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property and the other is the Berne Copyright Convention. She will become subject to the obligations of these conventions, and that declaration appears attached to the Treaty.
  There is also the point, which has been referred to by the President of the Board of Trade, that we are keeping our hands free on the question of the Most-Favoured-Nation Clause. That has been misunderstood in some quarters as indicating that we propose now not to

  579
  give the Most-Favoured-Nation treatment. We do in fact give the Most-Favoured-Nation treatment, and there are many reasons why we should wish to continue to do so, but as there is this long past history of unfair practices, we feel that we must keep our hands free in that respect.
  Mr. Colegate: The most important one at the moment is adherence to the agreement with regard to indications of origin. There is no reason why that should not be incorporated, and will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government propose to put that point in this draft Treaty?
  Mr. Younger: This is a very technical matter. I was under the impression that it was covered by the conventions.
  Mr. Colegate: No.
  Mr. Younger: Certainly Japan undertakes to do what is required of her under obligations under the old Treaties and to accede to certain new conventions. If that is an international convention, it may be taken that she will be required, if she was not already before the war a party to it, to become a party to such a convention. Furthermore, many of these things have been deliberately left to commercial treaties and not put in the Peace Treaty. For the reasons I have given, we think that there is a better chance of implementation if an obligation is freely accepted by Japan than if it is imposed.
  On the point raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) of conditions of labour and the level of wages in Japan, that is, of course, a very important reality which industry has to face. I think that it is to a large extent a job for the Japanese trade unions, for their colleagues in the international trade union world who can help them and give them support, and for the representatives of the Japanese and others in the I.L.O., but I think we should be deluding ourselves if we thought that the tremendous gap between the standard of living and the wage level in Asia and the wage levels in highly industrialised Western countries can be rapidly bridged.
  That point is also relevant to what I was saying about the large consumer markets which have a standard of living much nearer to the Japanese than to ourselves. Nevertheless. I think that this is
  580
  one of the things to which we must give very great attention in the coming months and years, both through the trade unions and through international organisations. We must also try to ensure the fullest United States and United Kingdom co-operation in this matter. It was suggested that there are already signs that the gains made by the trade unions in Japan are in danger. What truth there may be in that, I do not know, but of course, at the end of a period of occupation, we face the danger that there may be a reaction from quite a number of things which the Allied Occupation has sought to enforce, and I very much doubt whether any clause in a Peace Treaty could protect us fully from that.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: Reverting to the question of the Copyright Convention and so forth, I do not think it was covered because the declaration deals only with those multilateral international instruments to which Japan was a party on 1st September. I should have thought it would have been much better that the two conventions, to which our industrialists attach a very great deal of importance, should be included specifically in paragraph 2 of the declaration, to which Japan declares that she will adhere. I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would look into this.
  Mr. Younger: Certainly. I asked about it earlier, and my understanding was that it was covered. If for any reason we Lind that that is not so, I certainly undertake to look into it.
  The final matter which I want to mention very briefly—I have very little time left—is the question of reparations. When we had a debate earlier in particular relation to the possibility of obtaining anything for former prisoners of war, it was emphasised on all sides that the matter about which the prisoners of war themselves were most anxious was to get the principle established that there was an obligation on Japan to pay reparation for the wrong done.
  At that time we were not altogether optimistic. Final negotiations had not been completed, and we were not overoptimistic about getting even the principle accepted. There have been very considerable difficulties, but we have got the principle accepted, and I hope that to that extent those who are interested

  581
  will be satisfied. Of course, it was only because of the very exceptional compassionate merits of the case that it was possible to get that agreement.
  When we come to the question of trying very greatly to increase the sum of money available for the purpose, frankly we are up against very great difficulties. As is the case in any payment which Japan may at this stage of things be compelled to make, in the long run that is liable to fall upon the people who are at present and are likely for some time to come to have to continue, contributing to the viability of Japan and it is a very difficult thing to ask that anything more than the assets in neutral countries which are made available, and assets in our own country, should be made available for this purpose.
  I was asked about the question of distribution. So far as the distribution through the International Red Cross of neutral assets is concerned, the details of that are still to come. I can give no information on that. It has still to be worked out, and I should be very glad of any advice and consultations that we can have.
  On the question of the assets in our own country, which amount to about £1¼ million but which immediately will amount probably only to something rather less than £1 million, because it is difficult to liquidate them all, I apologise to the House that this written answer to a Question was made today. Owing to lack of imagination on my part, it had not occurred to me that the House would not yet have seen the answer. It is rather long because it involves the question of the use of organisations, and perhaps I may read out part of one paragraph which, I think, gives the gist of it:
  " We therefore propose that the money which may be obtained from the liquidation of Japanese assets in the United Kingdom should be put at the disposal of selected benevolent organisations closely linked with the Services, or concerned with the interests of civilian internees. This would he on the understanding that the money shall he used primarily for the benefit of prisoners-of-war and civilian internees of the last war and of their dependants, who must be resident in the United Kingdom at the time of payment; that it is to meet need and hardship (on a broad interpretation of those terms), and preferably not to be in the form of a continuing grant."
  I hope that hon. Members will be content with that extract, because I have
  582
  very little time to deal with the other subjects, and the reply will be in full in HANSARD tomorrow.
  Brigadier Smyth: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken note of the fact that the former Far Eastern prisoners of war themselves want the payment to be made on a basis of fair shares for all? Even if they are to get only 6d. a man, they would rather share it out. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not think that he knows better than they do as to how the sum should be distributed.
  Mr. Younger: I did note that point in speech of the hon. and gallant Member and I am hoping I may have an opportunity to meet representatives of that body before long, when we may discuss the matter.
  Mr. Snow: Is what my right hon. Friend has just read out contrary to Article 16, which refers specifically to ex-prisoners of war and the Armed Forces, as he is now dealing with civilian internees?
  Mr. Younger: I do not think it is contrary to the Article, but I will have to examine the text and cannot answer that on my feet at the moment.
  Sir Harold Roper Sir Harold Roper (Cornwall, North) rose—
  Mr. Younger: I am sorry I cannot deal with this matter any further, as I have only five or six minutes in which to finish and there are a large number of subjects. In conclusion about the Japanese Treaty, I think, and I hope the House will think, that it is a heartening achievement of Anglo-American co-operation in a very difficult area of the world and I should like to pay tribute to the statesmanship of Mr. John Foster Dulles, to whom the success of these negotiations is very largely due.
  I turn back to Europe for a few moments. First, I should like to deal with one point with which I was asked specially to deal, the question of the size of the Russian armed forces and the apparent conflict between certain figures. The figure of 175 divisions is a figure which includes infantry and armoured divisions. The figure of 215 divisions included a further 40 divisions called artillery and anti-aircraft divisions. I think the difficulty is that the organisation of the Russian army is very different

  583
  in this respect from ours and many of these artillery units would not in our armies be described as divisions at all. It is not an overall increase from 175 to 215, but the larger figure includes an additional category of troops. In the overall figures the figure of 2,800,000 referred to army personnel, whereas the figure of 4 million included the total forces.
  I do not think I need elaborate upon that, but I wish to say something about the general question of the defence of Europe. The first thing on which I think we all agree is that we must have an overall policy which builds up both the moral and material strength of the Atlantic Treaty Powers. We need, on the one hand, increased material forces, and secondly, a defence plan which offers a reasonable assurance to all the parties concerned that they will be defended and not find their territories used for a sort of rearguard action at the beginning. Thirdly, we must have a cause worth fighting for
  On the first point, I hope there is no disagreement anywhere that we must co-operate most fully with General Eisenhower in his most onerous task and give him every support we can by example and exhortation and by providing men, materials and equipment. On the second point, of having a plan which offers a reasonable assurance to all the parties that they will be really defended, that, of course, brings up the question of the contribution from Germany. I would say here that it is not only most Western Germans, but all Western Germans who feel they have a right to be defended or to defend themselves. There are also some of our other Allies in the West who feel in an exposed position, particularly Denmark and also Holland and Belgium and, to a lesser degree, all our Allies on the Continent. I think it is really beyond dispute that, taking a long view of the future, Germany cannot always be defended by others. She must make a contribution herself. As the Committee know, the policy outlined by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in February still stands.
  I was asked in particular about the discussions with a view to putting the occupation of Germany on a contractual
  584
  basis. That has been going on ever since the Brussels meeting of Foreign Ministers at the turn of the year. There have been very complicated discussions in Germany and the matter will be coming up for review fairly soon by Governments. The European army talks have concluded, I think, today, and we hope to examine them very shortly. I can assure the Committee that we will take a sympathetic view of the proposals. I cannot say what they are. I have not yet had time to see them. They only came in this morning. There are further the Bonn discussions, which have been referred to, upon which I need not elaborate.
  My final point relates to the third heading, the question of a cause to fight for. That means morale. It means, on the one hand, that Western Europe must have a reasonably sound economy and a reasonable measure of social justice to make people think that they have something worth fighting for. It also involves the proposition that not every anti-Communist is from a morale point of view a sound ally.
  That brings up the question of Spain. I know this subject engenders heat. The first thing I wish to say is that I am in entire agreement with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden. There is not at the moment, and I hope there will not be, any question of discussing the entry of Spain into the North Atlantic Treaty. It has not been suggested and we are not considering it.
  I think that the United States was entitled to make an agreement if that is what she thinks is right. We are not contesting that right. We are only contesting the appropriateness and the wisdom of it. I think it is wrong to point too clear a contrast between the military, political and moral aspects in these matters. We have to ask the broad question, would the association of Spain in Western defence strengthen us or not? That is the point to which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, in a speech some time ago which received some criticism, was addressing himself, and I think addressing himself very fairly.
  I wish to quote to hon. and gallant Members who have stressed so much the military and strategic aspects, Napoleon, who said in a very famous phrase that

  585
  in war moral considerations make up three-quarters; the balance of material forces accounts only for the remaining quarter. It is interesting to note that he said that in correspondence on affairs in Spain. Strategy which leaves that aspect out of account is the strategy of defeat. It is wrongly imagined that it is only Communists in Europe or in this country who would lose heart to a considerable extent if they were to find themselves associated with Spain. [An HON. MEMBER: "Rubbish."] It is not rubbish. It is deeply and widely felt among the working class of the whole of Europe.
  We know that there are divisions in Europe. Why add to them in this way? This is a matter which should be taken much more seriously from the morale point of view than it has been by some hon. Members. I cannot really accept the comparison between Yugoslavia and General Franco's Spain. I believe the analogy to be quite false ideologically and strategically. In any case I ask myself what can the memory be of those hon. Members who seek to liken Tito's partisans to the Blue Division.
  9.29 p.m.
  Mr. Assheton: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for allowing me one minute to say something to the Committee. The outstanding Votes will be taken at half-past nine. In the old days, hon. Members will remember, there were a great many Divisions on this occasion. As we have done in the last two or three years we do not propose to divide against any of these Votes because they are all so mixed up. We cannot vote against some things we dislike without voting against some things that we support, so we shall not vote at all. I think that the Committee understands our position.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  The Chairman then proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House this day, forthwith to put severally the Questions, That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the several Classes of the Civil Estimates, including Revised and Supplementary Estimates, and the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Revenue Departments Estimates, and in the Navy, the Army, and the Air
  586
  Estimates, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1951–52

    CLASS I
    That a sum, not exceeding £12,465,329, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. House of Lords

    65,541

    2. House of Commons

    612,217

    3. Registration of Electors

    275,000

    4. Treasury and Subordinate Departments

    2,304,425

    5. Privy Council Office

    20,658

    6. Privy Seal Office (including a Supplementary sum of £14,500)

    20,115

    7. Charity Commission

    51,692

    8. Civil Service Commission

    324,465

    9. Exchequer and Audit Department

    244,465

    10. Government Actuary

    19,050

    11. Government Chemist

    142,292

    12. Government Hospitality

    60,000

    13. The Mint

    90

    14. National Debt Office

    90

    15. National Savings Committee

    597,349

    16. Overlapping Income Tax Payments

    13,000

    17. Public Record Office

    56,025

    18. Public Works Loan Commission

    90

    19. Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

    9,100

    20. Royal Commissions, etc.

    90,810

    21. Secret Service

    2,600,000

    22. Tithe Redemption Commission

    90

    23. Silver

    2,835,000

    24. American Aid Counterpart Funds

    700,000

    25. Friendly Societies' Deficiency

    3,221

    26. Miscellaneous Expenses

    87,872

    26A. Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund

    246,758

    Scotland:

    27. Scottish Home Department

    1,068,700

    28. Scottish Record Office

    17,214

    £12,465,329

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS II
    That a sum, not exceeding £40,916,805, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services

    587
    included in Class II of the Civil Estimates, viz.

    £

    3. British Council

    1,242,000

    5. International Refugee Organisation

    300

    6. Commonwealth Relations Office

    1,076,473

    7. Commonwealth Services (including a Supplementary sum of £10)

    965,295

    8. Oversea Settlement

    23,300

    9. Colonial Office

    609,845

    10. Colonial and Middle Eastern Services

    18,923,587

    11. Development and Welfare (Colonies, &c.)

    12,950,000

    12. Development and Welfare (South African High Commission Territories)

    308,900

    13. Imperial War Graves Commission

    965,951

    14. Overseas Food Corporation

    3,851,154

    £40,916,805

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS III
    That a sum, not exceeding £47,367,603, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Home Office

    2,005,202

    2. Home Office (Civil Defence Services)

    7,719,570

    3. Police, England and Wales

    18,556,445

    4. Prisons, England and Wales

    4,193,098

    5. Child Care, England and Wales

    5,857,900

    6. Fire Services England and Wales

    2,657,900

    7. Supreme Court of Judicature, &c.

    679,164

    8. County Courts

    200,029

    9. Land Registry

    90

    10. Public Trustee

    90

    11. Law Charges

    305,603

    12. Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    29,170

    Scotland:—

    13. Scottish Home Department (Civil Defence Services)

    744,221

    14. Police

    2,774,266

    15. Prisons

    414,637

    16. Approved Schools

    167,100

    17. Fire Services

    343,088

    18. Scottish Land Court

    10,358

    19. Law Charges and Courts of Law

    105,587

    20. Department of the Registers of Scotland

    90

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS IV
    That a sum, not exceeding £182,396,940, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Ministry of Education

    134,223,858

    2. British Museum

    198,536

    3. British Museum (Natural History)

    163,838

    4. Imperial War Museum

    19,821

    5. London Museum

    11,480

    6. National Gallery

    48,479

    7. National Maritime Museum

    19,058

    8. National Portrait Gallery

    12,643

    9. Wallace Collection

    17,817

    10. Grants for Science and the Arts (including a Supplementary sum of £2,370)

    2,603,207

    11. Universities and Colleges, &c, Great Britain

    12,472,525

    12. Broadcasting (including a Supplementary sum of £100,000)

    12,125,000

    13. Festival of Britain, 1951 (including a Supplementary sum of £945,000)

    1,901,281

    Scotland:—

    14. Public Education

    18,545,957

    15. National Galleries

    22,309

    16. National Library

    11,131

    £182,396,940

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS V
    That a sum, not exceeding £544,473,505, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Ministry of Local Government and Planning

    4,576,615

    2. Housing, England and Wales

    40,568,500

    3. Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, England and Wales

    33,690,000

    4. Ministry of Health

    2,004,000

    5. National Health Service, England and Wales (Revised sum)

    235,140.000

    6. Registrar General's Office

    967,097

    £

    7. Ministry of Labour and National Service

    13,704,000

    8, Grants in respect of Employment Schemes

    450,000

    9. Ministry of National Insurance (Revised sum)

    104,368,000

    10. National Assistance Board

    64,735,000

    11. Friendly Societies Registry

    42,170

    12. Central Land Board

    2,269,500

    Scotland:—

    13. Department of Health

    1,142,000

    14. National Health Service (Revised sum)

    29,693,000

    15. Housing

    7,217,000

    16. Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues

    3,785,000

    17. Registrar General's Office

    121,623

    £544,473,505

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS VI
    That a sum, not exceeding £95,586,182, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Board of Trade (Revised sum)

    4,029,185

    2. Services in Development Areas

    4,836,030

    3. Financial Assistance in Development Areas

    405,010

    4. Export Credits

    90

    5. Export Credits (Special Guarantees)

    450,000

    6. Ministry of Fuel and Power

    4,900,000

    7. Office of Commissioners of Crown Lands

    47,917

    8. Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries

    13,659,431

    9. Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (Food Production Services)

    14,350,410

    10. White Fish Authority

    416,025

    11. Surveys of Great Britain, &c.

    1,662,010

    12. Forestry Commission

    4,484,000

    13. Development Fund

    982,000

    14. Ministry of Transport

    1,656,500

    15. Roads, &c

    20,788,000

    16. Mercantile Marine Services

    324,100

    17. Ministry of Civil Aviation

    12,075,500

    18. Department of Scientific and Industrial Research

    3,541,000

    19. State Management Districts

    965,440

    Scotland:—

    20. Department of Agriculture

    2,512,974

    21. Department of Agriculture (Food Production Services)

    2,577,160

    22. Fisheries

    432,501

    23. Herring Industry

    465,300

    24. State Management Districts

    25,599

    £95,586,182

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS VII
    That a sum, not exceeding £44,365,857, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Ministry of Works

    4,705,025

    2. Houses of Parliament Buildings

    343,000

    3. Public Buildings, Great Britain (including a Supplementary sum of £300,000)

    20,763,000

    4. Public Buildings Overseas

    1,258,000

    5. Royal Palaces

    281,000

    6. Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

    419,000

    7. Miscellaneous Works Services

    200,000

    8. Rates on Government Property

    6,366,820

    9. Stationery and Printing

    8,353,012

    10. Central Office of Information

    1,491,000

    11. Peterhead Harbour

    36,000

    Ireland:—

    12. Works and Buildings in Ireland

    150,000

    £44,365,857

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS VIII
    That a sum, not exceeding £57,371,836, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VIII of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Merchant Seamen's War Pensions

    141,800

    2. Ministry of Pensions

    51,950,536

    3. Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, etc.

    665,000

    4. Superannuation and Retired Allowances

    4,614,500

    £57,371,836

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLASS IX
    That a sum, not exceeding £442,540,220, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IX of the Civil Estimates, viz.:

    £

    1. Ministry of Supply (Revised sum)

    79,748,000

    2. Ministry of Supply (Trading Services and Assistance to Industry) (Revised sum)

    -1,987,490

    £

    3. Ministry of Food

    254,797,680

    4. Ministry of Transport (Shipping and War Terminal Services)

    3,485,000

    5. Ministry of Fuel and Power (War Services)

    70,000

    7. Administration of certain African Territories (including a Supplementary sum of £150,000)

    1,836,500

    8. Advances to Allies, etc.

    3,000,000

    9. War Damage Commission

    939,000

    10. Burma War Damage Payments

    87,000

    11. Board of Trade (Strategic Reserves) (Revised sum)

    -13,500,000

    12. Ministry of Supply (Strategic Reserves) (Revised sum)

    -4,500,000

    13. Ministry of Food (Strategic Reserves)

    42,592,000

    14. Ministry of Materials

    796,000

    15. Ministry of Materials (Trading Services and Assistance to Industry)

    10,176,530

    16. Ministry of Materials (Strategic Reserves)

    65,000,000

    £442,540,220

    Question put, and agreed to.

  ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1951–52
  That a sum, not exceeding £145,454,470, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, viz.:

  £

  1. Customs and Excise

  …

  6,574,200

  2. Inland Revenue

  …

  17,449,270

  3. Post Office

  …

  121,431,000

  £145,454,470

  Question put, and agreed to.

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1951–52
  That a sum, not exceeding £161,353,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, viz.:

  £

  3. Medical Establishments and Services

  1,863,000

  5. Educational Services

  800,000

  7. Royal Naval Reserves

  1,730,000

  8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.:

  Section I.—Personnel

  28,640,000

  Section II.—Matériel

  46,900,000

  Section III.—ContractWork

  51,180,000

  Question put, and agreed to.

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1951–52
  That a sum, not exceeding £248,850,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Army Services, viz.:

  £

  3. War Office

  2,620,000

  4. Civilians

  45,610,000

  5. Movements

  22,770,000

  6. Supplies, &c.

  42,040,000

  7. Stores

  134,340,000

  9. Miscellaneous Effective Services

  1,470,000

  £248,850,000

  Question put, and agreed to.

  AIR ESTIMATES, 1951–52
  That a sum, not exceeding £73,690,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Services, viz.:

  £

  3. Air Ministry

  …

  3,210,000

  4. Civilians at Outstations

  …

  22,390,000

  5. Movements

  …

  8,650,000

  6. Supplies

  …

  39,440,000

  £73,690,000

  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]
  Resolved:
  That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on 31st day of March, 1952, the sum of £2,133,650,240 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom. —[Mr. Jay.]
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  CHAIRMAN OF KITCHEN COMMITTEE (PRESS CORRESPONDENT'S LETTER)
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [24th July],
  " That Mr. William Barkley do attend this House this day."
  9.36 p.m.
  Mr. Speaker: I have a communication to read to the House, which I think I ought to put before the House. It reads as follows:
  " To the Right Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons.
  SIR,
  I deeply regret that what I wrote in the "Daily Express" of July 9th, which was intended jocularly, should have offended against the privileges of the House of Commons, and have given offence to Mr. Coldrick, whose honour as Chairman of a Select Committee of the House of Commons it was never my intention to impugn.
  After my 27 years' experience of the working of the House of Commons and its system of Select Committees, it could not enter my mind for a moment that a Chairman of such a Committee would ever seek to further his personal interests. By the decision of the House, my words are held to have carried this implication, which was never intended, and, in these circumstances, I ask leave to appear at the Bar of the House to offer my apology to you, Mr. Speaker, to the House of Commons and to Mr. Coldrick, and to offer an explanation.
  Your Obedient Servant,
  WILLIAM BARKLEY."
  9.37 p.m.
  Captain Crookshank: This morning the House sat until a quarter to four, but as the daily HANSARD does not continue beyond about 10 o'clock, it is only those hon. Members who were actually present in the Chamber at the time who are aware of the full details of what occurred, though, of course, the result is known to them in the Votes and Proceedings issued this morning. From that, hon. Members will realise that the House last night came to a unanimous decision that the letter in the "Daily Express" by Mr. William Barkley constitutes a gross libel on the Chairman of a Select Committee and a contempt of this House. Later on, further discussion of the matter and on what should be done was adjourned.
  From the letter which you have just read out, Mr. Speaker, it would seem that Mr. Barkley is fully seized of the feelings of the House arising out of the
  594
  troubles which centred originally on the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, and, having been seized of the opinion of the House, from what you have read out, he has sent to you, and I take it through you to us, his humble apologies for what he has written. He has made it clear, as I heard you read, Mr. Speaker—as clearly, I think, as could be put into words—that he never meant to impugn the honour of the hon. Gentleman and that he was quite certain from his long experience among us that it would never enter the head of any Chairman of any Select Committee, or indeed of any hon. Member to seek to further his own interest within the sphere of authority delegated to that Member by this House.
  It seems to me, having heard this letter, that it is a full and ample apology in every way, and that, therefore the position tonight is that we have as a House—I agree there were not many Members here, but it was a representative assembly—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It was not a full House, I agree; there was not a quarter of the number here now.
  Mr. Manuel: We were here.
  Captain Crookshank: I know the hon. Gentleman was here, and he probably remembers that I was here, but we are not blowing our own trumpets. I am merely saying that it was not a very full House and that the matter was discussed pretty adequately by those of us present. We came to the decision, which cannot be impugned by anybody, that this matter was a libel on the Chairman and was a contempt of the House. As a result of that Mr. Barkley has, in my view, handsomely apologised for the error into which he had fallen.
  I suggest with all humility to the House that it would now be consonant with our dignity, having received this full apology and having expressed our own opinion and taken our own decision with regard to the original matter, if we accepted the apology and let the matter drop.
  9.42 p.m.
  Mr. Coldrick: May I as the person who was most maligned in this most unfortunate affair say that I and my Committee will be glad to accept an apology which has been

  595
  tendered to the House? I want to make it abundantly clear that so far as the Committee was concerned, we brought this special Report to the Members because we were conscious that it would be a serious thing for this House and the Members of it if we allowed people who enjoy our facilities to proceed to impute ill motives to Members who are discharging duties laid upon them by the House. Consequently we had no vindictiveness towards any individual. We wanted to vindicate the action we had taken collectively as members of the Committee.
  I am particularly glad to think that in tendering this apology Mr. Barkley has at least indicated that he does not derive that sadistic pleasure from injuring innocent people which most of us had been led to assume. On the last occasion, I think, when someone ventured to charge members of the Kitchen Committee with the same kind of charge as Mr. Barkley has uttered, he was sent to the Tower. I am very pleased to think that on this occasion you, Mr. Speaker, have at least been relieved of the painful duty of sending Mr. Barkley to the Tower, because I do not think that even the Members on this side of the House would derive any pleasure in thinking that he was shivering in the Tower while we were tucked up in bed.
  However, I want to make it clear in closing, that there may be an impression that in consequence of an incident of this character the relationship between ourselves and the members of the Press Gallery is somewhat estranged. I want to say most emphatically on behalf of the whole Committee that our relationship with the Press Gallery Committee that has worked with the Kitchen Committee has been most happy and friendly. I am positive that they regret this incident as much as Members of this House. Therefore, I thank the Members of this House for the action which they have taken. I think it was an action that became our own dignity, and on behalf of myself particularly, and also on behalf of the members of my Committee, I am prepared to accept the apology.
  9.45 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): In the early hours of this morning the House, after full deliberation, decided without a dissentient
  596
  voice that the letter which was the subject of the Kitchen Committee's complaint was a gross libel and a contempt of the House, and that stands on the record of the House for all time as a condemnation of the letter and as a vindication by his fellow members of the integrity of the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee.
  That is a very severe punishment on the journalist who was guilty of writing the letter and we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Coldrick), the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, that he is prepared to accept the apology. He hinted at the kind of difficulty that might occur if we pursued this matter further, especially after the apology has been tendered.
  I do not know whether ever again anyone will be committed by the House to the Tower. I should think it is probably very doubtful, and it is very difficult to see what other punishment could be inflicted after the punishment that was inflicted last night and which has been and will be advertised to the world. I suggest that the apology is adequate and that the House would now best consult its own dignity by not proceeding further with the matter. Therefore, we propose to fix no day for resuming the adjourned debate.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: No day has been fixed for the adjournment of this debate and therefore it cannot be discussed any more. It is a matter between the Leader of the House and hon. Members if no day has been fixed. The matter passes on and the Orders of the Day must be carried on. I distinctly heard the Leader of the House say there was no day for further debate and therefore this debate for the time being cannot be carried on. That is quite definitely my Ruling.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of order. The House has listened to a number of speeches in which certain advice has been tendered to the House and certain opinions expressed. Are we to understand there is no opportunity now in which any hon. Member could express his dissent?
  Mr. Speaker: Certainly, the hon. Member could put down a Motion on the Order Paper, but no day has been given for the continuation of this debate and therefore tonight it cannot be continued.
  Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order. If there was nothing before the House and no date has been fixed, may I ask what we have been discussing so far and to what point speeches made so far have been addressed?
  Mr. Speaker: Any hon. Member can always challenge the Speaker in his conduct, but I have to conduct the affairs of the House as I think best.
  Mr. Boothby Mr. Boothby (Aberdeenshire, East) rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I am talking. I made a communication to the House which I thought might be of interest to hon. Members and allowed just a few remarks with regard to it, but now there is no day for subsequent debate and therefore it can only be resumed by a Motion on the Order Paper which any hon. Member can move.
  Mr. Bowles: Mr. Barkley offered to come to the Bar of the House; is he coming or not?
  Mr. Speaker: That was in the letter, but I understood the apology was accepted. [HON. MEMBERS: "No. By whom?"] The hon. Member concerned accepted it.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order, order. I quite understand that the apology was in the letter, but the Home Secretary said that he proposed to fix no day for resuming the adjourned debate.
  Mr. Bowles: With great respect, Mr. Barkley offered to come to the House of Commons Bar to apologise to the House, and not to the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Coldrick). I suggest that he has not done so.
  Mr. Speaker: Apparently the hon. Member who is aggrieved did not think it was necessary. [Interruption.] In any case, that matter can be debated on a Motion put down on the Order Paper. No day has been signified for the continuation of this debate and, therefore, I rule that it cannot take place.
  Mr. Boothby: On a point of order. This House was, in fact, debating a Motion, and I want to ask a perfectly simple question: What has caused you to bring that debate to a conclusion, Mr. Speaker?
  Mr. Speaker: Nothing has caused me to bring that debate to a conclusion. The Home Secretary has. He said that he would fix no day for resuming the debate.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The House is really getting somewhat hysterical. As Speaker, may I ask Members to control themselves? I was not here last night, but I understand we had an exhibition. The Home Secretary is responsible for the business of the House, and he has said that no day will be named for the discussion of this business. This business, therefore, can only be discussed on a Motion which can be put down by some hon. Member.
  9.52 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: In view of the fact that the debate last night was adjourned on the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Messer) and myself, may I with great respect put this to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the Leader of the House? May I remind you, and mention for the benefit of those hon. Members who were not present last night, that the Motion which we were discussing last night was proposed by the Home Secretary and was that Mr. William Barkley shall attend the Bar of the House. May I remind you, with great respect, Mr. Speaker, that the Home Secretary sought at about three o'clock this morning to withdraw that Motion, and that leave to withdraw the Motion was refused? Whereupon, as a result of an intervention which I made to the House, the suggestion was then made by the Home Secretary that it would be much better for the debate to be adjourned and to be continued at some other time.
  The point of order I am raising is this. I want to put it to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the Home Secretary that, in view of the proceedings which took place last night, and which will be duly recorded in HANSARD, I think all hon. Members who were present in the House last night would agree that, in view of the conditions in which the debate was adjourned last night, the Home Secretary, as Leader of the House, is in honour bound to find time for a resumption of this debate in the very near future.
  Mr. Speaker: That may be, but I am bound by the words of the Home Secretary that no day will be fixed for resuming

  599
  the debate. The matter between the hon. Member and the Home Secretary must rest there. It is nothing to do with me.
  Mr. Bellenger: Further to that point or order. I think, without prejudice to a debate which may possibly ensue later, that it would be as well if you could give the House a little guidance on the procedure which has hitherto been followed tonight. You made a statement and then the Home Secretary made a further statement, or made a speech on your statement. You therefore allowed the debate to ensue. Why must it be cut short after the Home Secretary?
  Mr. Speaker: The fact of the matter is that the Home Secretary is Leader of the House and announces the business which is before the House. I am not responsible for that. He made some comments on the letter which I have read out and announced that he would give no day for discussion of this Motion. I am, therefore, bound by that and I am powerless in this matter.
  Mr. William Ross: Am I not right in stating, Mr. Speaker, that before you made your statement and read out the letter from Mr. Barkley, the Clerk of the House actually said, "Kitchen Committee Report, resumed debate"?
  Mr. Speaker: Yes, but there again somebody has to say "Now." That was never said. Nobody said "Now." I thought it was my duty to read out this letter which seems an apology. It has nothing to do with me whether the House accepts it or no, but various statements were made, and the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee accepted it. The Home Secretary accepted it and said, "No day for further debate as far as this Motion is concerned." As far as I am concerned, that ends the matter.
  Mr. S. Silverman: With very great respect, the matter was ended yesterday or early this morning on the basis that the debate was adjourned and would be resumed. It was resumed when the learned Clerk said so at the beginning of this discussion. There has since been a statement by you, a speech on behalf of the Opposition, a speech on behalf of the Kitchen Committee and the hon. Member most personally concerned, and a speech by the Leader of the House. I submit to
  600
  you, Sir, with all respect, that those speeches were either all completely out of order or all in the resumed debate which has not so far been terminated by the House.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Silverman: I have not yet concluded. I suggest to you further, with great respect, Mr. Speaker, that it is quite wrong to say that because some hon. Member is satisfied or because the Leader of the House is satisfied or because the Leader of the Opposition is satisfied, therefore the House is satisfied. Any offence which was committed here, if there was an offence—as the House has unanimously decided—was not an offence against my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Coldrick) or the right hon. Gentleman opposite or the Leader of the House, but an offence against the House of Commons; and the question whether the apology should be accepted or in what form it should be accepted is a matter for the House to discuss.
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me. The Home Secretary said "No day." I am bound by that.
  Mr. Boothby: Further to that point of order. Can we debate the question whether we agree with the Home Secretary or not?
  Mr. Speaker: One can put a Motion on the Order Paper. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is all one can do at the moment.
  Mr. Bowles: I am very sorry to persist, Mr. Speaker, but the basis on which the House to some extent accepted the apology of Mr. Barkley was his offer to come to the Bar of the House and apologise. I have seen no sign of him appearing. Is he coming, or is ten o'clock to pass without him coming to the Bar? What is to happen? Surely he should come.
  Mr. Ede: I desire to be of help to the House. When the learned Clerk read the Order, nobody said "Now." [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is the duty of the Government to arrange the business of the House, and if a member of the Government says "Now" the matter called then becomes ripe for discussion. The statement that I made was equivalent to one of the Whips saying "No day."

  CIVIL DEFENCE REGULATIONS
  Draft Civil Defence (Shelter) (Planning) Regulations, 1951, [copy presented 10th July], approved.—[Mr. de Freitas.]
  Draft Civil Defence (Shelters) (Planning) (Scotland) Regulations, 1951, [copy presented 12th July], approved.—[Miss Herbison.]

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REDISTRIBUTION OF SEATS)
  Draft House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) (Cardiff, Barry and Monmouth) Order, 1951, [copy presented 17th July], approved.—[Mr. de Freitas.]

  RATIONED FOODS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Sparks.]
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. Cooper-Key: I am very glad indeed to have the opportunity of bringing to the attention of the House some facts regarding the existing stocks of rationed foods. This is a matter of very considerable public importance. First I shall seek to indicate that supplies of some foods are greatly in excess of the ration. Second I intend to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food to increase the ration, anyhow during the holiday period, or to give reasons why such increases should be withheld. Finally I want to warn the Government against repeating those suspicious concessions which took place shortly before polling day in some elections before the last General Election and also in respect of the General Election itself. I think that this is specially timely in view of the latest inspired rumour of an October election.
  The first of these rationed foods I shall deal with is sweets. Up to 16th July the sweet ration had been running at some 6 oz. per head per week. On this, ration stocks have been increasing in the shops and elsewhere, and at the present time the coupon redemption of the shop keepers is about 90 per cent. The story is this. The manufacturers went some weeks ago to the Minister and told him that there were ample stocks and ade-
  602
  quate production available for a 7 oz. ration, even without any extra sugar allocation. Moreover, they said that it would be possible to increase even the 7 oz. ration to an 8 oz. ration, and within a month to abolish sweet rationing completely, as supplies would be likely to exceed demand.
  I say that, confronted with these reassuring figures, the Ministry should have been delighted to increase the ration at once and to pass on the benefit to the consuming public. But instead of increasing the ration to 7 or 8 oz., what did the Minister do? He increased it by a miserable ½oz. a week.
  The Minister's excuse for not increasing the ration to 7 oz., as he was advised to do by the manufacturing trade, is an interesting one and should be recorded. He said that housewives would be annoyed at an increase of the sweet ration whilst there was no increase of the domestic sugar ration; and he furthermore believed that housewives would think that sugar was being directed to the sweet manufacturers which otherwise should be going to them.
  If the Minister really believe that, his duty was quite clear. He should have told the public the truth, which is that no extra sugar ration is going to sweet manufacturers. Meantime, the Minister has left the confectionery trade with the impression that he is more concerned with his public relations than with the public need, and I hope that in reply to this debate the Parliamentary Secretary will give the House the reason for not increasing this ration up to the available supplies. Perhaps he will also say when he expects that this commodity will be taken completely off the ration.
  The next item with which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will deal is the sugar ration itself. I do not believe that the case for an immediate and substantial increase in the sugar ration is quite as strong as it is for an increase in the sweet ration. The truth of the matter, regarding both sugar and meat, is that there is plenty of sugar and plenty of meat in the world if we pay for it. For sugar we must pay in American currency, and if we have to buy a million tons of coal, as it looks as if we shall have to, then I am afraid that the housewife will have to go without any appreciable increase

  603
  in the sugar ration. Nevertheless, the sugar stocks in bonded warehouses at 31st May of this year stood at 1½ million cwt. higher than in the corresponding period last year, which amounts to about a 15 per cent. increase.
  I pass now to the tea ration. In the first six months of this year, imports of tea were 79 million 1b. higher than for the same period last year, the figures being 233 million 1b. against 154 million 1b. The Ministry of Food estimates that every ½oz. in the tea ration requires 100 million 1b. per year, or 50 million 1b. for a half year. But the increased exports are already sufficient to provide a ½ oz. increase in the ration until the end of the year, with 29 million 1b. to spare for reserves. The Minister recently stated that he would increase the ration when supplies justified it. Surely it is justified by those figures.
  I wish the Minister, and also other hon. and right hon. Members opposite, would understand that the tea ration is a very vital matter. In my constituency, as well as in many others, it is important that old people and others should get adequate supplies of tea, and the present ration imposes a considerable hardship upon them. If it is possible to increase the ration, then I believe we should do so without any delay.
  Next is the question of margarine. There is some mystery about this, which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to explain. Public demand for margarine is well below supply, and the manufacturers have asked for de-rationing. The stocks are there. Why is this commodity still on the ration?
  Next is a question I brought up some time ago, and that is the meat ration. I wish I could point to an excessive supply in this, but that is not so. I am afraid that stocks of meat today are barely sufficient for four weeks' ration demands. I have said before that the meat ration is a national scandal and, moreover, there will be no adequate supplies for the housewives of this country until the present absurdities in the system are done away with.
  There is a great deal in what has been suggested on several occasions to the Minister, namely, to let buyers be sent over to Ireland to buy meat in the open
  604
  market, bring it to the shops here and sell it at the price which it will fetch. If that were done, I think that in a very short time there would be no shortage of meat, and it would be possible to do away entirely with meat rationing. Perhaps the Minister will reply to that point.
  I have asked the Parliamentary Secretary a number of questions about tea, sweets, margarine and the sugar ration, and I hope that he will tell us whether he can increase these rations and, if not, why not. Finally, I hope that he can give an assurance that the rationing of these and other foods will not be used, as it was before the last election, to make concessions to a long suffering public with the object of attracting votes which otherwise might be withheld.
  10.12 p.m.
  Mr. John Arbuthnot: We are extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Cooper-Key) for initiating this debate. We are all vitally concerned with the shortage of the various commodities to which he has referred.
  I should like to make special reference to the situation in the tea industry. My hon. Friend has drawn our attention to the fact that the amount of tea imported in the first six months of this year was 79 million 1b. more than it was in the same period of last year. I think it important that we should recognise that in making a comparison with last year we are not exactly comparing like with like. There was a very considerable shortage in the import of tea into this country last year because of the strikes on the railways of India and in the port of Calcutta, so that the quantity of tea available in this country was very much reduced compared with what it normally would have been.
  Imports of tea into this country after the first six months of last year were increased in order to make up for the lack of exported tea from India in the first six months. Imports for the first six months of this year, on the other hand, have been more normal, so the reason for the relative increase this year as compared with last year has been chiefly due to the artificially low quantity last year owing to the strikes on the railways and in the docks of Calcutta.

  605
  I think it is very important that the hon. Gentleman should make sure that the tea ration in this country is maintained at a level figure and that there are stocks in hand to enable this to be done. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that for any government to release, immediately prior to an election, an amount of tea representing a larger ration than can be maintained, will produce disastrous results afterwards to the party concerned.
  10.15 p.m.
  Mr. Dye: The hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Cooper-Key) mentioned the possibility of buying meat in Ireland for sale and consumption in this country outside the ration. He said if that were done we could very soon abolish the ration. I doubt whether he has studied the number of cattle that are available in Ireland. Certainly, if we had the whole of them, including what the Irish eat themselves and what is exported elsewhere, it would not make an appreciable difference to the size of the ration in this country.
  I should like to put a point to the Parliamentary Secretary about the cattle which we slaughter in this country. There are leaving Norfolk every week some 6,000 or 7,000 pigs which are slaughtered in the Midlands. Unfortunately, everything goes with the pigs and the people who have reared them get none of the pies which are made from them, no pig's "frys" as we used to call it, and none of the offal. While there is still such a shortage of rationed meat, could not the farm workers in Norfolk who work long hours at the harvest—
  Mr. Nabarro: And in Worcestershire.
  Mr. Dye: —have some chance of pig offal from the animals which they helped to produce instead of the whole of it going to people in the Midlands. Would not that be wiser and better distribution? Those who feed the pigs and rear and produce them for the nation should have a fair share of the pork, sausages, pies and all the rest of it which come from those pigs and is not distributed in the ration. It is made available in the area where the pigs are slaughtered, which is well over 100 miles from where they are produced.
  10.17 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Frederick Willey): The hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Cooper-Key) raised a number of subjects, and I will try to touch upon them all. Before I do so, I ought to point out that he advanced a false premise. He cannot say at the same time that we ought to increase rations and then go on to say that if we do he will regard that as politically suspect. What we are trying to do is to increase rations when supplies allow regardless of the political situation.
  Mr. Cooper-Key: I am saying that the supplies are now available.
  Mr. Willey: I thought the hon. Gentleman was talking about an October election. There is not much time between now and October.
  We are only going to deal with rations on the basis of supplies. The position of our supplies of sweets is quite simple, and the hon. Member misquoted the manufacturers. I am sure it is doing them no good to bring on to the Floor of the House matters which are amicably discussed between the trade associations and the Ministry. As to the sweet ration, the manufacturers suggested an increase to 7 ounces. They did not suggest derationing. We decided, in the light of the available supplies, that it would be better to increase the ration to 6½ ounces, and that is what we have done.
  At this time of the year the demand is low. There are many alternatives to sweets, and it is on that basis that the ration has been increased. As the hon. Gentleman very rightly pointed out, and I am glad he did so, this is based upon a seasonal falling off of demand, and is not based upon any increased allocation of sugar to the manufacturers. In fact, the manufacturers are still tied to an allocation based on a 4 ounce ration, and they have done extremely well in getting sweetened fats and other alternatives to sugar. We will see—it is far too early to say yet—what is the offtake on a 6½ ounce ration. In the light of that, we will determine what should be done in the next ration period.
  Regarding sugar, I was glad to hear the hon. Member say, which is the fact. that there is no very real case to justify an increased ration on the supplies available to this country. He gave some

  607
  figures but, of course, he will bear in mind that we have an increased ration this year compared with last year. I have dealt in a previous Adjournment debate with the question of sugar, and I refer the hon. Member to that debate. The circumstances have not changed. It is misleading to talk about there being plenty of sugar in the world. I re-emphasise what I emphasised in the previous debate: that in three months the price of Cuban sugar rose from 40s. per cwt. f.o.b. to 56s. a cwt. f.o.b., which illustrates that there is heavy pressure on the sugar supplies.
  Regarding tea, of course, if it were possible we would increase the ration. We have always increased the ration of tea when supplies have allowed, but there is no immediate prospect of any increase in the tea ration. It is far too early to be certain about this. This is the time of year when arrivals of tea are at their lowest. It is a time of the year when we look to see how this year's crop in Northern India is coming along. Northern India is our major supplier and is the largest tea producing area upon which we depend, and it is too early yet to say what supplies of tea we will be fortunate enough to obtain this year.
  The overall position about tea is, quite simply, this. We are obtaining from India, Pakistan, Ceylon and East Africa, substantially more tea than we were obtaining from those countries before the war. But, on the other hand, we are obtaining less tea from Indonesia, China, Formosa and Japan. No one has suggested how we should get increased supplies, particularly from Indonesia. As regards tea consumption, compared with pre-war, when we were on a 2 ½oz. ration we were above the pre-war figure. On a 2 oz. ration, we are below it. We will endeavour to get up to a 2½ oz. ration whenever we can, but it is too early yet to say what are the prospects this year.
  When these suggestions are made, I presume that they are made with a full realisation of their implications. Tea could be derationed only if the price were set free. As in all these commodities, we can look for comparisons to countries where the supplies are on a free market. Tea is not a very good example, because we are the predominant tea-drinking country. If we look to a com-
  608
  parable European country, we find that whereas our price of tea is 3s. 8d. per 1b., it is 12s. per 1b. in Switzerland. But that is not the sort of decontrol that we are prepared to work towards. We are determined to do what we can, and quite deliberately to ensure that where the demand is in excess of supply we ensure fair shares.
  Mr. Arbuthnot: Will the hon. Gentleman say what the stocks are?
  Mr. Willey: The hon. Member is rather naive, because he should know that for obvious, prudent, commercial reasons the one thing I am not prepared to do is to disclose our stocks.
  Mention has been made of margarine. The position regarding oils and fats is, again, that the consumption in this country is far above what it was before the war. I emphasise that because it puts an additional strain upon the country, in that we have to take out of the world's supplies a much larger quantity of oils and fats than before the war. Particularly over the past few months, in view of the deterioration of the international situation, there have been real difficulties in obtaining the oils and fats we require. But we have been able to maintain current rations. The position about offtake is that the offtake of margarine and cooking fats—
  Mr. Nabarro: What is an "offtake "? Does the hon. Gentleman mean consumption?
  Mr. Willey: Yes, the consumption levels are much higher. I am surprised the hon. Member is so out of touch with business terminology.
  The consumption levels this year are substantially higher than they were last year. If we take margarine last month, the offtake was 96 per cent. compared with 89 per cent. last year. In the case of cooking fats, it was 98 per cent. compared with 89 per cent. last year. Again I have to assume that the hon. Member knows these things and is logically arguing his case, in spite of the fact that the present margarine ration is practically entirely taken up by the housewife, his argument is that it should be set free, but it can only be set free in such circumstances by allowing prices to run free. Again we say, "No; while there is this demand from all housewives in the coun-

  609
  try it is up to us to see that no one obtains larger supplies to the prejudice of others."
  Margarine in this country is 1s. 2d. a lb. and in France 3s. 1½d. Lard in this country is 1s. 4d. per lb. and in France 3s. 11½d. It is only in terms of such prices that we could have the de-rationing which the hon. Member demands. This is really the political difference between us, whether it is proper to allow these supplies, upon which there is a heavy demand, to go to the housewife with the largest purse, or to hold the prices, which means that we must enforce rationing in order to ensure fair supplies. In regard to meat, the hon. Member again avoided—
  Mr. Cooper-Key: I understand that the Treasury are the people who object because the more these commodities are consumed the more the Treasury have to find in subsidy.
  Mr. Willey: No, that is quite a false argument because, as the House is aware, although there is a ceiling on food subsidies of £410 million, where it has been necessary my right hon. Friend has not failed to come to the House and announce a consequential price increase. What we have done continuously and consistently is to obtain all the supplies available.
  I would say this about meat, as the hon. Member mentioned Ireland, that I need only repeat what my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye) said. Indeed, if we doubled meat and livestock imports from Ireland—and as the House will be aware we have substantially increased these imports since 1948—if we doubled the present higher level of imports from Eire and Northern Ireland, it would amount to no more than a halfpenny on the ration.
  610
  I can only assume that the hon. Member is arguing that meat could be derationed if we had a halfpennyworth more available. He is arguing that with a halfpenny more on the supplies of meat we should set meat free and the price would have to determine who could afford to buy the meat. We say, "Not at all."
  In 1949–50 we took up more than 90 per cent. of the available meat in the world markets. That is why the hon. Member turned to Ireland and suggested that we can get meat from Ireland and deration. He must face up to the political implications of what he is saying. The world supply of meat is short and the proper way to safeguard the domestic consumer of this country is to ration and at the same time to control prices so that the ration is a real one that all can afford to buy.
  Mr. Cooper-Key: Will the hon. Gentleman not agree that world supplies of meat today are higher than ever they have been since 1938–39?
  Mr. Willey: No, that is not so. In the case of our two main suppliers, Argentina and Australia, the domestic demand is higher than it was before the war, with the result that their exportable surplus is much less than pre-war. The hon. Gentleman has suggested no alternative markets except Ireland. I can only assume that he has done that because he knows the difficulty of increasing over a short term the supply of meat from Australia and Argentina.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

  PERSIAN OIL (MEMBERS' REPORTS)
  PERSIAN OIL (MEMBERS' REPORTS)
  FAR EAST EX-PRISONERS-OF-WAR (JAPANESE COMPENSATION)
  FAR EAST EX-PRISONERS-OF-WAR (JAPANESE COMPENSATION)
  RAW COTTON COMMISSION (PROFITS)
  RAW COTTON COMMISSION (PROFITS)
  MATERIALS (PRICES)
  MATERIALS (PRICES)
  FESTIVAL CONCERT HALL (FRONTAGE)
  FESTIVAL CONCERT HALL (FRONTAGE)
ARMED FORCES
  Aeroplanes (Syrian Order)
  Aeroplanes (Syrian Order)
  Foreign Nationals (Enlistment)
  Foreign Nationals (Enlistment)
  Pensions
  Pensions
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Eggs
  Eggs
  Emergency Feeding Arrangements
  Emergency Feeding Arrangements
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Dried Fruit Imports
  Dried Fruit Imports
  Sugar (Sales to Persia)
  Sugar (Sales to Persia)
  Meat
  Meat
WEST AFRICA
  Development Boards, Nigeria
  Development Boards, Nigeria
  Broadcasts, Accra
  Broadcasts, Accra
COLONIAL EMPIRE
  Nyasaland (Festival of Britain Delegation)
  Nyasaland (Festival of Britain Delegation)
  Family Planning
  Family Planning
  Oil Supplies
  Oil Supplies
MALAYA AND SINGAPORE
  Situation
  Situation
  Police Lieutenants
  Police Lieutenants
ANTIGUA
  Legislative and Executive Councils
  Legislative and Executive Councils
  Strikes and Lock-outs
  Strikes and Lock-outs
  Sugar Estates (Union Officials)
  Sugar Estates (Union Officials)
  BARBADOS (ESTATES)
  BARBADOS (ESTATES)
  COLONIAL STUDENTS, U.K. (HOSTELS)
  COLONIAL STUDENTS, U.K. (HOSTELS)
  UGANDA (COTTON FUND)
  UGANDA (COTTON FUND)
  MAURITIUS (CIVIL SERVANTS' ALLOWANCES)
  MAURITIUS (CIVIL SERVANTS' ALLOWANCES)
ROYAL NAVY
  Ordnance Inspection Department
  Ordnance Inspection Department
  Sick Pay
  Sick Pay
  H.M.S. "Veryan Bay" (Leave)
  H.M.S. "Veryan Bay" (Leave)
  Merchant Ships (Escorts)
  Merchant Ships (Escorts)
POST OFFICE
  Identity Cards (Inspection)
  Identity Cards (Inspection)
  Private Box Renters, London
  Private Box Renters, London
  Stamp Books
  Stamp Books
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Faults
  Faults
  Weather Forecasts
  Weather Forecasts
  Edinburgh
  Edinburgh
  Shared Lines
  Shared Lines
BROADCASTING
  V.H.F. Communications
  V.H.F. Communications
  R.A.F. (LOW FLYING, SCARBOROUGH)
  R.A.F. (LOW FLYING, SCARBOROUGH)
  CIVIL AVIATION (HERMES AND ARGONAUT AIRCRAFT)
  CIVIL AVIATION (HERMES AND ARGONAUT AIRCRAFT)
  BAMANGWATO RESERVE (TSHEKEDI KHAMA)
  BAMANGWATO RESERVE (TSHEKEDI KHAMA)
  R.N. ASSOCIATION, BATTERSEA (BUILDING LICENCE)
  R.N. ASSOCIATION, BATTERSEA (BUILDING LICENCE)
  CLASS Z RESERVISTS, EAST WRETHAM CAMP (TANKS)
  CLASS Z RESERVISTS, EAST WRETHAM CAMP (TANKS)
SCOTLAND
  Roads, North and South Uist
  Roads, North and South Uist
  Roads, Lewis
  Roads, Lewis
  Road Works, Barra
  Road Works, Barra
  Hearing Aids
  Hearing Aids
  Housing Association (Investigations)
  Housing Association (Investigations)
  Pet Animals Bill
  Pet Animals Bill
  Cruden Houses
  Cruden Houses
  Housing Repairs
  Housing Repairs
  Catto Committee (Report)
  Catto Committee (Report)
  Old People's Homes
  Old People's Homes

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

SUNDAY MOTOR RACING IN ABERDEENSHIRE
2.35 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, Lord Aberdeen, I beg to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware of motor race meetings having taken place at Crimond (Aberdeenshire) Airfield on Sundays, May 20 and June 17, and that another race meeting is being planned for Sunday, August 19; whether they are aware that this has caused great indignation locally through the disturbance of public worship by the influx of between 20,000 and 30,000 people to witness the racing; will His Majesty's Government say by whom this use of the aerodrome was authorised; what charges have been made for its use and who receives the money; and is it their opinion that localities which have sacrificed valuable agricultural land for use as aerodromes in war time should be victimised in this manner in consequence when war is over.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): My Lords, permission to use this airfield for three or four one-day rallies between May and September this year was granted to the Aberdeen and District Motor Club by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, who are responsible for the management of the land. The permission was conditional on the agreement of the agricultural tenant being obtained by the club, and no charge was made by the Department. At the time when permission was granted, the Department were not aware that Sunday
1210
meetings were contemplated or that the rallies would attract such a large attendance. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has received representations from the Presbytery of Deer, and from the Aberdeen County Council, against the holding of these meetings on Sundays, and he is informing the club that any further meetings should be held on weekdays.

FUTURE OF THE TELECINEMA
2.37 p.m.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether it is the present intention to demolish the Telecinema, now operating under the British Film Institute, when the South Bank Exhibition closes; and whether they will not rather allow the cinema to continue under the present authority as a national institution.]
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this question is under examination, and I am glad to be able to assure the noble Lord that no decision to demolish the Telecinema will be taken pending a full and sympathetic study of the possibility to which he refers.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his answer, would the noble Lord agree that, since the South Bank is being developed as a place of entertainment and culture, such a cinema should take its rightful place alongside the National Theatre and the Concert Hall?
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I agree that that is so, and that is why I deliberately used the word "sympathetic" in my reply. The noble Lord will understand that certain negotiations are necessary, because the land on which the cinema stands is the property of the London County Council. I assure him that there is no intention of demolishing the cinema.

STEEL FOR POWER STATIONS
2.39 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, in view of the vital need of industry for electric power, both for the rearmament programme and export drive, what steps they are taking to ensure a sufficient allocation of steel for the water-tube boilermakers to enable them to carry out the programme of production for electric power stations in the United Kingdom ordered by the British Electricity Authority and approved by His Majesty's Government.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH): My Lords, as announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on June 28, His Majesty's Government have decided to reintroduce controls over the whole field of steel supplies. Allocation schemes are being worked out at present, and they are planned to come into operation not later than January next. In the meantime, as the noble Lord is doubtless aware, His Majesty's Government are giving a symbol to facilitate preferential treatment of supply for limited quantities of steel urgently required to sustain production for essential home uses, such as the generation of electricity. Full details of the operation of this interim arrangement were given in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the statement to which I have already referred. It can be found in the OFFICIAL REPORT, No. 129, column 1587. The water-tube boiler makers may apply therefore for this symbol in case of supply difficulty.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his sympathetic reply about the symbol interim scheme, but may I say this? I understand that the first priority is for defence orders: then there is preferential treatment for such people as boiler makers. I am credibly informed that, even under second priority, they are having tremendous difficulty in getting sufficient steel. They
1212
urgently need much larger supplies for this year than they are now receiving, otherwise their programme will not be executed. This matter is of vital importance, and I hope that the noble Lord will look into it again.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the real difficulty does not arise for present production. The symbol priority was introduced to remove bottlenecks for supply of essential components at the end of the production line. For example, if a generating station that was ready to go into commission was held up for some essential component the symbol machine would be used to overcome the difficulty. It does not purport in any way to take care of large-scale supplies at the first stage of production. My information is that at the present time there is no fear of difficulty of supply hampering production, although difficulties may arise in the future. At the present time, while this interim scheme is in operation it will take care of urgent necessities.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, by leave of the House, may I refer to the noble Lord's supplementary reply? I understand that this industry do not hold large stocks of steel and order well in advance of needs. Therefore, they will be in a real difficulty, unless they receive more supplies than at the moment. I do not wish to detain your Lordships further, but I hope the noble Lord will bring this matter to the notice of the Department concerned.

SUNDAY MOTOR RACING IN ABERDEENSHIRE
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, may I have the privilege of asking a supplementary question to the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, which was answered in my absence?
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I am doubtful whether it is in accordance with the Rules of the House for me to repeat an answer that I have already given in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. But if I may be allowed to summarise my reply, it was to the effect that my right honourable friend the Secretary of

1213
State for Scotland had carefully considered the question and has come to the decision that, in view of the opposition of the Aberdeen County Council, he should not allow the race meeting arranged to take place on Sunday, August 19.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords——
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!

THE BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION
2.43 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON LORD WOOLTON rose to call attention to the Report of the Broadcasting Committee, 1949 (Cmd. 8116), and to subsequent publications relating thereto; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the broadcasting of news and views is so obviously a matter of great national interest that I thought your Lordships would desire at some time to give a day to its discussion. I was certain, also, that your Lordships would desire an opportunity to thank the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and the members of his Committee for the Report they have presented to Parliament, and for their most exhaustive and, I should have thought, exhausting, labours. The reason why I venture to intervene is that it chanced that I was a Chairman of the inter-Party Cabinet Committee that dealt with this problem in the days of the Coalition Government. Therefore, I thought your Lordships would perhaps forgive me if I raised the matter to-day. We have, indeed, a great deal of information to guide us. I do not know whether your Lordships have read it all. I started out with a great ideal on this subject, and a determination that I would read not only the whole of the Report, but all the information that was sent to me by various people who have been good enough to favour me with their opinions. But as more and more of it poured in, I am bound to say that I had to give up an unequal struggle. I therefore propose not to deal with any of the interests that have suggested that I should raise particular points, which some thought were not adequately covered by the debate in another place. I shall confine myself, on the whole, to the main headings on the subject, and particularly to those aspects of
1214
it on which Parliament can properly express a view.
I believe the first thing that we have to do is to make up our minds on whether we think the B.B.C. during all these years have served us well. The best is the enemy of the good, and, of course, we should always strive for those things that are more excellent. At the same time, we should be most careful not to discard the good until we are quite sure that we have something that is better, if not the best. To-day I hope your Lordships' House will tell the Governors and the staff of the B.B.C. that we review their work with grateful admiration. To fortify ourselves in this praise, I ask those of your Lordships who were in Britain during the war, and particularly those who were here in the early days of the war, when dispersal of many of our services was so necessary, to think of those days. I ask those of your Lordships who were, for one reason or another, able to judge the opinion of other nations of the work of the B.B.C., and who know what happened in occupied countries, to remember those things. I feel that the recollection of them must affect our judgment on the importance of securing that the essentially British national character of our broadcasting system should be retained. Those recollections, if your Lordships will be good enough to think of them for a moment, will, I believe, both mark and enliven your sense of gratitude and praise for the B.B.C.
During the war the B.B.C. spoke for Britain. But I am inclined to think there is little doubt that the German broadcasting system spoke for Germany. I wonder whether, if Hitler had not had the broadcasting system at his command, he would have been able to capture so completely as he did the soul of Germany. We must face up to the danger of the Government of the day having handed to them exclusively, by Parliament, so powerful an instrument. Of course, it all depends upon the spirit of the nation, which the Government must reflect. The German nation perhaps liked the reflection that it obtained from its broadcasting system. The difference between the German system and ours was that we created a broadcasting company with a major degree of independence in its operation of programmes in this country, whereas Hitler captured the machine. It is interesting to note—and I think most

1215
creditable—that during the war, with all the stringencies of war, the B.B.C. retained a great deal of its independence. Those members of your Lordships' House who were Ministers at the time will know that we frequently had words on the subject of what we were allowed to do and how much we were allowed to use the broadcasting service. That independence, while it was quite frequently inconvenient, was, I am sure, perfectly right. It is a peculiarly British compromise between logic and practice. Here we have a Government deciding the extent of the licence for broadcasting; we have the Government collecting the revenue; we have the Government appointing the Governors; and, having done all that, we have the Government telling them to be independent. That position cannot be defended on the basis either of reason or of logic. The best parallel is to be found in the entirely illogical composition of your Lordships' House. The answer in both cases, of course, is the quite unassailable one, that it may not be very logical but it seems to work very well.
I have raised this issue because of the obvious danger that lies in the future if we had an unwise Government able to capture the B.B.C. That could be done. It might be done by the use of political patronage, by which the Government would secure the political support of the majority of the Governors; but, more important, and I think infinitely more dangerous, the Government might use their influence through the Chairman of the Governors to secure appointment to key positions on the staff of people who would give a Party slant to the general programmes of the B.B.C. I am glad to see my noble friend the Chairman of the B.B.C. in his place, and I assure him—though I believe it is unnecessary—that in making these remarks on the subject of the Chairman of the B.B.C. I am talking of a hypothetical Chairman, and certainly not casting any reflections on his conduct of his office. The danger is one of degree, and one that varies over a wide area. Nothing more tangible might happen than that a Chairman of deep political conviction might tend to favour those people of like mind, so that the political orthodoxy of the Corporation might take its tone from the Chairman.
There, I believe, is a real danger. The Chairman might, either from an excess of political impartiality, or because of his personal sympathies, allow Communist influence to get a hold in the place. Believe me, once that happened we should have a deliberately destructive force at work, giving a slant to programmes in such a subtle manner that it might be difficult for those in control of the administration of the B.B.C. to be both wise and patently just in dealing with the staff involved. I raise this issue, because I personally am convinced that we are in some danger of hiding our heads in the sand regarding the danger of Communist infiltration into our public and our educational services—and there is no educational service in which it could be so dangerous as that of the Broadcasting Corporation.
The Report of the Beveridge Committee brought to light the ill-defined position of the Governors. I understand from their White Paper the Government propose to deal with this matter by Charter. May I therefore make three observations? I have come to the conclusion that it would be better if the Chairman of the B.B.C. were chosen from one of the very large number of men in our national life—men or women; I have no feeling as to their sex—who have achieved distinction on other than political grounds. I think it might be well if, instead of the Chairman's being chosen by the Government—that is to say, by the Prime Minister of the day—he were chosen by a small Committee consisting of the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the Archbishop of Canterbury, acting as an impartial chairman. By that means we might at any rate secure that the temptation to make a political nominee would be reduced.
The second reason why I raise this matter is because of the Government's suggestion that there should be broadcasting councils, drawn from public authorities, for the provincial areas. I hope that, whatever else we do to-day, we shall kill this idea stone dead. It is the most pernicious idea which has come out in all the discussions we have had. I believe that if we agree to it the whole area of the B.B.C. will be subject to political bias. Let us make it plain to the country to-day that we are determined to preserve, and even to strengthen, the

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safeguards which will confine Party political propaganda on the air to the clearly defined appointed channels of Party political broadcasts. If these councils, as indicated in the White Paper, are to have almost absolute control over the policy and the programmes, I think we shall get into a state of chaos. I cannot imagine why they have been suggested. The B.B.C. would, I presume, be able to have nation-wide broadcasts only by permission of these local councils. But what about the staff? They would have dual and may be conflicting loyalties. Your Lordships know what would happen in the end. We should have more committees, hindering operations, delaying actions and incurring travelling expenses.
The third reason which I adduce arises From Recommendation 8 in the Beveridge Report. The last thing in the world that I wish to do is to misinterpret or do any injustice to that Recommendation, but I have not understood it. In Paragraph 556 there is a suggestion, at least, that a Governor might take a special responsibility in some section in which he has particular interest. Now that would obviously be very proper, for Governors ought to be interested and ought to lake special responsibility if they have special knowledge. But, surely, action must not be expressed as a result of the direct decision or instruction of any Governor—it must to through the Director General. In an organisation like this, if Governors began o interfere with the detailed operations—and especially with the contents of a programme—I do not know where we should et. It would be as if a business panel of company directors, men who are not whole-time directors but who are there represent shareholders' interests, went Into the works and gave instructions to he foremen. It would be disastrous. I do not know why anybody suggested it.
The Governors of the B.B.C. hold partime appointments. Their duty lies, and must lie, in the range of public policy. They must not be allowed—and I quote
"to enter into execution and practice."
The B.B.C. is a vast organisation of 13,000 more people, and unless the Director General and the staff who are appointed serve are recognised as the only vehicle or transmitting opinions to the staff, not only will the position of the Director general become intolerable but the staff way frequently find themselves gravely
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embarrassed. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, will be good enough, as a result of the vast amount of labour which he undertook to enlighten us as to his opinion on that subject.
Now I come to the question: How long is this new Charter going to last? At once I agree with the importance that the operations of such a Corporation must demand. The Corporation should have stability, and the Governors and the staff must be able to look ahead. I very much doubt whether the major premises for stability really exist in this matter. The technology of electro-physics is in a state of constant change, and it may be that well within the period of fifteen years most revolutionary scientific changes will take place. In those circumstances, I wonder whether it would not be much wiser if we provided for the Charter to last for much less than the fifteen years. To suggest seven years is just an obvious compromise, Lord Beveridge's Committee, in a very reasonable endeavour to deal with this particular problem, suggested that there should be what, in insurance language, is called a quinquennial review. I wonder whether such a review would serve any useful purpose. Of course, it could not alter the Charter, and it therefore seems to me that it would be a sort of cautionary committee, which might well bring a great deal of hesitation into decisions. I have come to the conclusion, therefore, that the best thing we can do here is to take the mean course and let the Charter last for no longer than seven years.
Now I should like to deal with the Government's financial proposals, which I understand are causing a great deal of disturbance and alarm in B.B.C. circles. The proposal is that the Government should take 15 per cent. of the revenue of the B.B.C. for their immediate use. I am told that that means a figure of something like £1,750,000. Here, Lord Beveridge and the Government disagree, and I have no hesitation at all in supporting the noble Lord's views. Your Lordships will realise that when the Government say that the B.B.C. can retain 85 per cent. of the licence fees, that does not mean that the B.B.C. have 85 per cent. of the licence money at their disposal. I do not know whether your Lordships know it, but the Post Office take 7½ per cent. as a collecting fee. I do not know whether they make a profit

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on that. If they do not, I should very much like to "get in on it." If the Post Office cannot collect those licence fees for less than 7½ per cent. they had better review the efficiency of their organisation. However, it is after they have collected that 7½ per cent., I understand, that the 85 per cent. begins to operate. That is not the end of the story. The Corporation have a receipts and expenditure account. I am not quite clear how this works. I know that they pay income tax on any profit they make, but I am not clear what is "profit" in these circumstances. The only thing I am clear about is that it means that in 1947 they paid £4,500,000 by way of taxation.
I will not say anything more about this matter. I should very much like to, but I understand that the question whether the B.B.C. should pay income tax is before the courts, and it would therefore be improper for me to go any further—though, as I say, I am vastly tempted to do so. But I do not think the Government are right in taking the 15 per cent. I am sure they are wrong to take the 15 per cent. and then tell the B.B.C. that, if this tax prevents their putting money aside for their future need they will be able to borrow it. That is the sort of "cock-eyed" finance that is causing so much of our present troubles. The B.B.C. must continue to put aside out of their income very considerable amounts of money for the future financing of their activities; and they ought to go to the country to borrow for only quite exceptional and major developments. If the Government want to put a tax of 15 per cent. on broadcasting, there is a case for that; but, let them do it in the Budget. I do not like this "taxation round the corner," because that is what it comes to if people have to pay £1 for a licence and then find that, without any Budget proposal, a portion of this money is being taken for taxation.
I come now to what I personally have found the most difficult issue to face in this debate—the question of monopoly. On this particular subject I do not think the Beveridge Report is as helpful as it is on so many others. It is enlightening—but I do not know where the light leads to. I read the Report for guidance because I have found great difficulty in coming to a conclusion on the subject. I went to the Beveridge Report, hoping that
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there I should find something that would balance my wavering mind. But what they have done is to tell us all the dangers that arise from the monopoly; and then, for some obscure reason, which they have not given, they have come to the conclusion that they are not in favour of monopoly in this form but that they are in favour of monopoly in, I understand, some other form. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge will enlighten us in that matter, because I may have done him an injustice.
I admit at once that on this question of monopoly I have both prejudice and fear. I do not like monopolies of any sort whether Government or private. I share that point of view at least with noble Lords opposite. I dislike the effect which monopolies have on the people in charge of them. When I say that, I hope that the Governors—one of whom I see is sitting here—will not feel that I am saying I do not like their minds. But it is a dangerous thing to have so much power The question is whether there is room both for the B.B.C., with its assure, revenue, and for some form of free enterprise. I recognise at once that the B.B.C. is a Conservative-created monopoly—had better give noble Lords opposite that point, in case they raise it. I agree that it has served a most useful purpose. I think it was essential to have this monopoly when the Conservative Party creates it. But that does not seem to be an argument for maintaining it when the industry is no longer an infant industry and, indeed, has grown to strength and maturity. I can find only one strong argument that commends itself to my mind in favour continuing the B.B.C. in its present form and that is that it seems to be working very well at present. On that complace tone, perhaps it would be convenient stop thinking about it.
But I do not think we can do that; do not think we can say that this is "The Only Way." We are here threatened with the continuance of this monopoly f fifteen years; and that with an industry which has developed so rapidly that the is not a noble Lord in this Chamber w could foretell what sort of services may be available from it in three or four years time, let alone in fifteen years. Monopoly stifles enterprise, not only in the think that it monopolises but also in the invention and production of the instrument that it uses. But what about fifteen years

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hence—and an unknown Board of Governors? Surely there is something to be said for the idea that, if there were other users of broadcasting in this country, they might provide considerable and additional encouragement to the development of new scientific methods and processes—and that in itself is a matter of vital importance to the defence services of the nation.
I ask your Lordships: What is the answer to this question? What is the objection to competition? We are told that if we have competition the bad will drive out the good, and that broadcasting in this country would be much worse if it were left in some part to people who are motivated by a desire to sell goods by broadcasting. I wonder whether that is true. I wonder what is the evidence for that argument. It is based on the idea, apparently, that we needs must love the worst if we are free. I do not think that reflects our general character. There are two types of B.B.C. programmes which I find very much below the standard of sponsored American programmes. Strangely, one is the programme designed to amuse us, to make us laugh. The other is the religious programme. I think the B.B.C. are very wise in giving people free tickets to go as audiences in the amusement parts of their programmes, because it gives listeners an idea of when they ought to laugh. Otherwise, I, for one, frequently find myself puzzled to find out what there is to laugh at. And then it occurs to me that if these people were televised they might perhaps look funnier than they sound—as they so easily could. I am quite certain that sponsored programmes would give us a livelier variety.
I hope your Lordships will forgive me, for I think this is a digression, but I cannot help saying this. I am most concerned about the religious programmes. When I was in America a year ago, I had more to do with broadcasting in the course of three weeks than I normally have in a year in this country. Of all the programmes that I heard or took part in, the one that impressed me most was three-quarters of an hour of a religious service, paid for by the Roman Catholic Church. It was full of vitality and conviction. It was a first-class broadcasting performance. I must say, it held me. Protestant as I am, I listened to it with most profound admiration. I generally listen to the programme in his country "Lift up your
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Hearts." at ten minutes to eight every morning. The religious organisations of this country get it free, day in and day out, and whilst, of course, there are brilliant exceptions, on the whole even the weather forecast that follows seems lively in comparison—maybe because they have an expert broadcaster giving the dismal news about the weather. I cannot help but think that what is given freely is valued lightly. I hope your Lordships will forgive me for having brought up this matter. I do not think it really arises out of the Report, but I am deeply convinced that the religious organisations of this country—and I hate to think of this country ceasing to be a Christian country—are missing a very great opportunity. I hope that the Spiritual Lords here will not think that I have gone beyond my temporal province in mentioning it.
Let me turn to the question of monopoly. There is another and a human factor which I am sure we must take into account. I do not like the idea of there being only one employer in any occupation. If any man falls foul of the B.B.C. and loses his job, or feels that he has to give up his job on that account, he is finished for broadcasting in this country. It is true that he can probably go abroad and do very well there. Then again, look at the matter from the point of view of the Directors of the B.B.C. They are very human and considerate gentlemen. They know quite well that, if they dismiss anybody from the B.B.C. because he is not very good, that man has no chance of getting a job in his own chosen profession anywhere else. I think that is a factor of which we must take notice.
Let me now give your Lordships the conclusions at which I have arrived, as a result of the considerable amount of thought that I have given to this problem—and not only since the Beveridge Report came out. Let me say that I am speaking personally, for I do not regard this as a Party matter. I do not want to involve anybody else in my opinions, and I have taken the opportunity of not consulting my Leader in this House about what I am going to say. He told me that I could say what I liked. I have come to the conclusion that the B.B.C. should be retained in full possession of their present powers, except that they should not have, for any long period, the exclusive right of broadcasting in this

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country. Under the powers which the Postmaster-General now possesses, I think that, within a reasonable distance of time from now, some station should be either leased or created that would permit of sponsored programmes; but from this station, or from any other station except the B.B.C., I would prohibit Party political broadcasts or broadcasts overseas. I want the B.B.C. to continue to be "the Voice of Britain" overseas.
As regards Party political broadcasts, I do not want any sponsored politics on the air. In this matter, I should declare an interest, because I do not want to see either of the two wealthy Political Parties in this country, the Communists and the Socialists, having an advantage over the Party to which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, belongs, or to the Party with which I am associated. Further, I believe that there is much to be said for a wider choice in broadcasting stations. I believe that we should encourage the development of local pride and civic sense in our provincial cities. Edinburgh, Cardiff, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and Belfast are all places that have interests and talents different from those that we find here in the Metropolis. We should be wise to cultivate these national and regional interests, and I wonder whether we could not do this and, at the same time, get away from the broadcasting monopoly that some of us fear.
I am given to understand, though I speak without expert knowledge, that the installation of very-high-frequency stations can be carried out for comparatively small sums, and that there is room for considerable development of broadcasting stations by this means. I see no reason why such stations should not be installed and supported by local interests. What have we to fear from such freedom arising from the development of a new technique? I believe that by this compromise we could obtain the best of all worlds. The B.B.C. would have nothing to lose; they would remain as the national organisation; they would broadcast to the country; they would broadcast overseas; they would be, and would be recognised by other nations as, "the Voice of Britain"; their revenue would be secure. All the time they would be stimulated to tech-
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nical advance by the fresh enterprise of the smaller and independent bodies, who would have to be very much alive to retain their place in face of the wealth and the power of this great national organisation. Thirdly, I suggest that, through very-high-frequency broadcasting on a local basis, we should overcome the problems that are worrying us about developing local feeling in the various areas of the country. I will not strain your Lordships' patience any longer. I have done my best to give your Lordships the views at which I have arrived in the face of many difficulties, difficulties that have been enhanced by my personal admiration for the work of the British Broadcasting Corporation, their staff and their Governors. I have not trespassed on your time to deal with the problems of television, and the relation between films and television, because I believe that other noble Lords, more competent than I am, will deal with those subjects.
3.20 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, in their White Paper on this subject, in which they have invited an expression of public opinion, the Government themselves have put forward their own views, though only in a tentative fashion. I think this procedure is to be warmly welcomed, and we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for having given to the House the opportunity that it would desire, in order to offer a reply to the Government's invitation. For my own part, I speak not only as a faithful listener to the B.B.C., as most of your Lordships no doubt are, but also as having been for some years a member of the General Advisory Council of the B.B.C.—as also are several of your Lordships. In consequence of this membership, of course, I have been heavily documented on all these subjects for several years past, and have had the advantage of hearing many of them debated in the discussions of that Council. The noble Earl, Lord Halifax, who is Chairman of the Council, will speak later, and will do so with the authority that belongs to that office. The Government's conclusions are, as I say, tentative. They are not at this stage like the character in one of Goldsmith's plays, who said:
"When I am determined, I never mind listening to reason, because then it can do no harm."

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No doubt we shall reach that stage a little later on.
To the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and to his colleagues, we, and the public in general, must all be exceedingly grateful for the eminent service that they have rendered. This inquiry has been more thorough, more comprehensive and more helpful in the solution of the various problems that arise than any previous one has been. On the whole, it is a vindication of the British Broadcasting Corporation. So is the Government's White Paper, which endorses categorically the conclusions of the Beveridge Committee. For my own part, viewing the matter as a whole, I feel convinced that that is the right view for us to adopt. We often say, of our institutions or systems, that this or that is the best in the world. The phrase comes trippingly from the tongue, and when we mean to say that this or that is very good, we may be saying that it is the envy and admiration of the world, without, however, having made any very careful investigation as to the precise facts in other countries. But there are certain institutions in which, almost by common consent, the British do show an example to other countries. The most important of course is the Justiciary. There is the Civil Service; there are our police forces; one might add perhaps the London Underground transport system. And I believe that to the list we can add the B.B.C. It is an institution which we can show proudly to the other countries which are in competition with, or in emulation of, us; and that fact is surely a justification of the principles, and also of the choice of persons who have been responsible during all these years for this great organisation. Among the persons to whom very high praise is due are, perhaps, principally, the first Director-General, Lord Reith, and the present Director-General Sir William Haley.
The main principles which I would suggest to your Lordships are three in number: first that the B.B.C. should be wholly independent of the Government of the day; second, that it should be a publicly owned monopoly; and thirdly, that it should not include programmes sponsored by advertisers. On the first point it is unnecessary to say anything, for it is universally recognised that the B.B.C. does possess complete independence, that all through the years, in war and in peace, it has had its own
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duty to perform, and recognises its own responsibilities. And the fact that that independence has been so invariably and scrupulously observed is greatly to the credit, not only of the Corporation itself but also of successive Governments, of all Parties.
The second point is that of monopoly. We on these Benches are, and have been historically, denouncers of monopoly as against competition. Indeed, it has become a term of abuse, and in fact it always has been, from right back in the 17th and 18th centuries. But a monopoly of this character is quite different from any other, except perhaps the Post Office, which is also a complete monopoly, in the hands of the State, and which, on the whole, serves its purposes well. Here again, this general principle has been reaffirmed. As a result of their long inquiry, after hearing much evidence against the principle, and after considering many alternatives, the Beveridge Committee came definitely to the conclusion, I think with one dissentient, that the monopoly should be maintained, although they did say that in various manners it should be safeguarded, and perhaps in some respects qualified, in the ways specified in the course of their Report.
Somewhat to my surprise, Lord Woolton to-day took a different view. Very few of the leaders in public life have asked for the mitigation of the monopoly by the inclusion of other organisations or an organisation for advertisers' programmes. This, of course, is the system which prevails in Australia, where there is both a State service, maintained through the usual channels for obtaining revenue, and also a commercial service, which is maintained by payments from advertisers. For my own part, I do not at all agree with Lord Woolton; indeed, I entirely dissent from him. I would rather see the present system maintained as it is. There is, in fact, a considerable measure of competition within the B.B.C.; or, if your Lordships do not like the word "competition," perhaps I may say "emulation." There are the three different programmes which compete with one another for reputation and favour. There are the seven regions which have control over a very large part of their own Home Service programmes, and there are

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several Overseas programmes always being transmitted. The producers of all these various programmes are in competition with one another. The heads of the B.B.C. are always on the lookout for good producers, and the producers themselves are always on the lookout for fresh talent, whether as speakers or as performers, who will enable them to show that their programmes are as good as, or better than, anyone else's.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has said that he does not like the principle of having only the one employer: that a man who does not make good, and is not a success in the opinion of the B.B.C., now has no opportunity to obtain another position in the same branch of life. Why should he have? He may, indeed, go to another producer within the B.B.C. for one of the other programmes and get employment. But if they all reject him as being inefficient, why should we expect that any commercial programme would employ him? On the contrary, they would be the very last to do so. Therefore that argument, it appears to me, is not one that carries weight. As to the programmes themselves necessarily they must obey public demand. The B.B.C. is not a body catering for any one class of the community, or for people of any one standard of education; it has to take into account the whole 50,000,000 of population. If one listens in by chance and hears someone crooning, and cloying us with "blue," "new," "true," "for you," and so on, one perhaps thinks that it is worse than jazz; but if, again, we turn to jazz and hear that, we may say: "Well, after all, this is even worse than crooning." And if we turn to the deadly uniformity of what is so strangely called "variety," we can only say: "Well, for those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they like." But they have to be catered for.
We must recognise that the tastes of the nation must govern, to a very large degree, the character of the programmes. It is the duty of the B.B.C.—a duty which they recognise, however reluctantly, is imposed upon them, and which they perform with great care and pity—to see that they choose their programmes to suit their public according to a balance of tastes. The reason why so many of us are bitterly opposed to the principle of commercial broad-
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casting is that the moment that is introduced it alters the balance of tastes that are catered for. The competition is of people paying fantastically high fees to the best performers or speakers or musicians, whichever they may be, in order that their own commodity may receive advertisement, on what is stupidly called "the air," but what ought to be called "the ether," as against their rivals. There is an odious but common expression that "time is money." It would be much more true to say that "time is life." It is the listener's leisure time which is being used, and why should he, in the time he wishes to give to listening, be catered for by people whose main object is to advertise the virtues of their soap or pills, or whatever it may be. Listeners' time is sold in the market to the people who can pay the most money, and who will determine the character of the programmes which will make it worth while for them to pay that money.
Indeed, the matter touches even deeper issues than those. Our modern 20th century civilisation, by the common consent of intelligent people, is already far too much commercialised by the buying and selling of things that we use and consume. These are aspects of human life which receive undue prominence in the modern age. Advertisements have been intrusive everywhere for the last fifty years. Some of us who have been concerned in this matter have been struggling to preserve the countryside against the degradation of advertising. The first Act to that end, I had the honour to assist in passing over forty years ago. That measure has been gradually extended, in face of great opposition. Powerful vested interests have had to be overcome, but at the present time we have some measure of protection for our treasures of historic and architectural interest and natural beauty. Now we have this new influence entering every home and affecting the intellectual and mental environment of every family. Why should we, for the sake of picking up a million or two here and there, degrade the standards of our broadcasting system by diluting it with a continuous stream of commercial advertising? I am told by those who know the working of the Australian system that in the commercial broadcasting service there, even during the playing of a Beethoven symphony, the brief intervals

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between movements are used for advertising pills and soap, and other items of that kind. Once you let in this principle, it is almost impossible to stop it because the financial advantage is so enormous; sponsored broadcasts must, sooner or later, dominate a large part of the programmes and leave to the B.B.C. the less remunerative ones.
Our cathedrals and abbeys and churches are in urgent need of large funds for their preservation, and appeals are about to be made on a considerable scale. What could be easier, or more remunerative, than to surround each of these buildings with hoardings for commercial advertisements? The more beautiful the cathedral, the larger the number of visitors it would attract and, therefore, the more valuable the advertising medium. We have spent vast sums on the restoration and the improvement of this very building in which we are meeting. That has to be a charge upon the taxpayer. Why not line Westminster Hall with effective advertisements of gin and stout, patent medicines and cigarettes? It would quickly pay for the whole of this expenditure. No one would suggest any of these things, of course, any more than he would advocate selling parts of Kensington Gardens or St. James's Park for housing sites, which, equally, would he an exceedingly remunerative proposition. Why, then, should we sell the listening time of the nation to various wealthy commercial undertakings? The question, in fact, comes to this: What kind of civilisation do we wish to live in? What sort of mental atmosphere do we wish to have around us? For my own part, I oppose commercial broadcasting in any form, including the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and two of his colleagues, who wish to give some hours to commercial broadcasting. I am afraid that the noble Lord and his colleagues must have suffered from some momentary aberration in making that proposal. I am very much surprised that Lord Beveridge should have supported such an idea. I hope that the Government will adhere to the principle that has been adopted hitherto, and will offer no compromise on these matters.
There is in the Beveridge Report one other proposal of far less fundamental importance—it is merely a matter of machinery—about which I have a great
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deal of doubt. That is that public influence should be directed into and within the British Broadcasting Corporation itself, by means of what is termed a public representation service. The proposal is that there should be a head of a department of equal rank to other heads of departments, whose business it should be to have a staff which should keep in the closest touch with the public, advise as to programmes, criticise programmes, and endeavour to act within the organisation of the B.B.C. itself as an agent of the public. I doubt whether that would be administratively feasible. I should imagine that it would be likely to cause great friction in all the various departments. It would be almost like the Soviet system of appointing a political commissar for every Army and division and brigade and battalion, or like having a censor by your elbow all the time for your programmes. No doubt that is not what was intended by the Committee in making this proposal, but it seems inevitable that it should so work out, because these advisers of the public representation service would really be doing what ought to be the plain everyday duty of the officers who are preparing the programmes, guided by the results of listener research and also by the opinions and decisions of the Board of Governors themselves.
I have only one other point—a very minor matter. I shall not occupy your Lordships' time about finance because I understand that several of your Lordships are about to speak who will probably deal with that topic. The point to which I wish to refer is the question of devolution, particularly to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. On this matter there has been a great deal of division of opinion. The present plans of the B.B.C., those of the Beveridge Committee, the White Paper of the Government and, to Tome extent, the views of the General Advisory Council all vary more or less, and a decision will be arrived at according to the amount of stress we lay upon one or other of the factors that are involved.
It seems to me of great and permanent importance that the distinctive characteristics of the different nationalities making up the British people should be maintained; that the traditions and culture and language of Wales and the traditions and

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culture of Scotland should be recognised as exceedingly valuable elements in enriching our national life, and that this new influence should not be allowed to be merely a unifying and levelling process which, in the course of a generation or two, would lead to the disappearance of all these distinctive characteristics. There is strong feeling in Scotland and in Wales about this matter, and it is well-founded.
What the precise form should be for the modification of present practice I am not quite sure. It may be a good thing, as it is now proposed, to appoint three additional Governors who shall be specially representative of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That may, or may not, be a good thing. It might be a wise plan to try it and see whether it gives rise to any difficulty or serves some useful purpose. It could at any time be easily changed as the result of experience. I do not agree with the proposal in the White Paper that there should be local councils which should be composed partly of representatives of county councils and borough councils. Although in general I am strongly in favour of our democratic system of local government, this is not properly a local government function, and I am by no means sure that these councils would be the right people to appoint persons to perform these particular duties. It might involve local elections in counties and towns turning on questions of the B.B.C., upon which there certainly would be violent controversy. I tremble to think of what might happen in Belfast and in Northern Ireland. The Press might take this matter up, and anyone who wished to make himself prominent before the public would need only to bring forward some trivial topic to cause the most strenuous and undesirable controversy. There has been a good deal of opposition in another place to this proposal, and I suggest that the Government should reconsider this matter.
I have one other point, about the period of the Charter. I think all members of the General Advisory Committee are convinced that a review of all these questions should not be too frequent. It causes a great upheaval within the B.B.C., which is hampered for long periods, and developments have to be postponed while the inquiries are proceeding. On the other hand, I doubt whether the country would
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approve an indefinite Charter for the B.B.C., as suggested by the Beveridge Committee, with interim inquiries perhaps every five years. It appears to me that the Government's proposal of fifteen years is one that would be acceptable, together with interim inquiries whenever necessary. I think we should not be too rigid or definite about that. We should leave it to the needs of the time to say whether the B.B.C. have fallen short in their duties or whether any new technical development, such as in high frequency or television, seems to necessitate important modifications. As to when interim inquiries should be held within the fifteen years, that could be left to public opinion as expressed in Parliament, and be acted on by the Government of the day.
My final point is one that can arouse no dissent or controversy. It is to join in expressing the deep appreciation which the whole House must feel to the Chairman and members of the Beveridge Committee. My noble friend Lord Beveridge has spent the major part of his time for a long period in the devoted service he has given to this inquiry. Twenty-five years ago he was a most valued colleague of mine on the Royal Commission on the Coal Industry. Having made Reports in the course of his life on coal, on national insurance, on full employment, on voluntary organisations and on the B.B.C.—all of them major social documents—I do not know what is left for him to report upon in the future unless it be the British Commonwealth or the British Constitution.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, may I, by leave of the House, apologise for the fact that in my anxiety to sit down, an anxiety doubtless shared by your Lordships, I forgot to move to call attention to the Report of the Broadcasting Committee, 1949, and to subsequent publications relating thereto, and to move for Papers? I now beg to move for Papers.
3.46 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I do not know whether we ought to have heard anything during the time the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, was speaking, because we had no Motion before the House, but I think that technicality can be waived in the informality of our customary procedure. I am

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sure your Lordships will agree that we have just listened to two notable contributions to the symposium on the future of broadcasting which we shall hear in the course of the afternoon. I think the word "symposium" is right, because this is not a political debate in the ordinary sense. In discussing this vastly important subject, from whichever side of the House we speak, we speak with a common purpose, We all want to work out by a process of pooling our honest convictions the best system of broadcasting for this country.
Before the Licence and Charter expire at the end of this year, the Government will have to decide what alterations, if any, should be made in the present structure of the It would be folly for any Government to make up their minds about such a momentous issue without seeking the best possible advice. We have already asked the Broadcasting Committee for advice based on a long and thorough inquiry, and we are now asking for the advice of both Houses of Parliament. We have published a White Paper with our provisional views about the recommendations of the Beveridge Committee. I should like to emphasise that the views of the White Paper are only provisional, or tentative, if I may use a word applied, extremely appropriately, by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. Our minds are not only open, but anxious for the considered opinion of all who are qualified to judge. There are many so qualified in your Lordships House including two members of the Beveridge Committee—the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and the noble Earl, Lord Elgin, both of whom we shall have the pleasure of hearing—and, of course, the father of broadcasting, Lord Reith. But some of our highest experts have passed a self-denying ordinance which I think I ought to mention at this stage. In deference to the views expressed by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House and by other noble Lords, about the undesirability of Peers who are on public boards taking part in debates which concern their duties as members of such bodies, the Chairman and the other members of the Board of Governors of the B.B.C. who sit in this House—I see one on each side—have decided to refrain from speaking this afternoon. Of course, we all realise that the B.B.C. is not subject to the same degree of Parliamentary
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or ministerial control as other public boards.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I think the noble Earl would like to reconsider a word he has used. He spoke of the "undesirability" of noble Lords speaking. That was not the wording of the agreed statement of advice given to the House, which made it perfectly plain that it was for every noble Lord who happened to be a member of a board to judge for himself whether or not he should speak.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am sorry if I did not use the exact word, but I am sure that the meaning I intended to convey was the same as that of the noble Viscount opposite. I think the advice tendered was that members of such Boards should not speak, but that the decision was left to them.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: No, it was not.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am sorry if I do not satisfy the noble Viscount on that point, but I think that was certainly what the noble Lords who desire me to make this statement intended.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I apologise for interrupting again, but this is an important point. The statement of advice given by the Leader of the House, with which the leaders of other Parties concurred, was most carefully prepared and, with great respect, it was not what the noble Earl has said. I do not say more than that. I leave it on the statement made at the time and in the subsequent debate. I felt that I had to intervene as one of the parties to the negotiations.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: It is quite true that the members of this House who are members of the Board of Governors have decided on this occasion that they do not wish to intervene in the debate.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I gladly leave it at that. I feel sure that the noble Viscount opposite, and the whole House, will agree that it was appropriate for me to say why the Governors of the B.B.C. who are here are not taking part in the debate.
I am sure your Lordships would wish me on behalf of the House—it has already been done for the Government in another place—to pay a sincere tribute to the

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work of the Broadcasting Committee, under the able guidance of its Chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and to associate myself with what the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has just said. The members of this Committee have given much of their time during more than a year to the preparation of an extremely valuable Report. I remember, when I was concerned with broadcasting policy, that if a change was contemplated we always consulted the Ullswater Committee's Report. I am sure that for many years to come people who want advice in future will, in the same way, turn to the Report of the Beveridge Committee, who have done their work with unprecedented thoroughness.
The Beveridge Report has paid some well-deserved compliments to the B.B.C. I think that, whatever we find to criticise here and there, we also are proud of the B.B.C. as a typically British institution. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, spoke of our grateful admiration for the work of the B.B.C. I am sure that sentiment is shared by everyone this afternoon. We also share with the Beveridge Committee their admiration for the efficiency, the political and all-round impartiality, the high standard of taste, and the public spirit with which they have discharged their responsibilities. And the whole staff of the B.B.C., its Director-General and its Board of Governors, deserve credit for this achievement. May I give one illustration of the last characteristic I have mentioned—public spirit—because perhaps it is not so familiar as the other characteristics to some noble Lords who have not been so closely associated with the B.B.C.? During the coal crises in the winter of 1947 I was told by the Cabinet to urge the B.B.C. to save fuel by cutting down its broadcasting hours. I prepared with some trepidation for what I felt might lead to my first collision with the Board of Governors. But before even the initial approach had been made, I received from Sir William Haley a note to the effect that the Corporation would like to curtail their broadcasting hours so as to release fuel for more urgent uses during the national emergency. I think this is typical of the way the B.B.C. put the interests of the country first.
Perhaps the greatest compliment of all is the Beveridge Committee's recommendation that the B.B.C. should carry on sub-
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stantially unchanged—I say "substantially"; the noble Lord opposite will no doubt substantiate his difference of interpretation of the Report he has produced.
LORD BEVERIDGE: If the noble Earl will allow me to say so, the word substantially" does not occur anywhere in the Report.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I confess that the word "substantially" is my own. Nevertheless, I am prepared to stick to it, and to say why I use it. The Government agree with the recommendation that broadcasting should continue as a monopoly of the B.B.C., and this proposal, it seems to me, is consistent with a substantial retention of the present form of broadcasting in this country. This decision is not inconsistent with keeping an open mind about the licensing later on of local broadcasting stations, independent of the B.B.C. I should like to point out to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, who, rightly, made a good deal of this point, that we have not closed our minds to the possibility of local broadcasting when the time is ripe. But I think there are three good reasons for not allowing a plurality of broadcasting authorities. The first is that broadcasting would cease to serve a social purpose if it began to compete for listeners. The lowest common denominator of public taste would not be a high one. Minorities would have almost nothing to listen to, and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, would be reduced to nothing but the uniformity of variety all day long. I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Reith, who once said that broadcasting programmes should be chosen not to meet but to antedate the popular vote.
The second reason is technical. We have too few medium wavelengths in this country to provide a large and varied assortment of broadcast programmes, such as they have, for instance, owing to their greater technical facilities, in the United States of America. Those who contend that competitive broadcasting would mean more variety do not perhaps realise that we lack at present this essential element of technical equipment. Every wavelength allotted to us must be used to the best advantage of the public, and we cannot afford the waste of duplication, either of coverage or of programme content. This difficulty may be overcome in time by the use of higher

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frequencies, but we have not yet reached this stage of technical development. The third reason for maintaining the present position of a monopoly under a public corporation is that none of the B.B.C.'s critics can suggest a better alternative. The Beveridge Committee have shown convincingly that public opinion is in favour of the present system, both because it works satisfactorily, and because nobody can suggest any other system that would work better—even the Minority Report of the Beveridge Committee did not suggest doing away with the B.B.C., although I think it suggested introducing other broadcasting authorities.
Of course, we are all aware of the dangers of monopoly—what the Beveridge Committee describe as "uncontrolled bureaucracy"—and these dangers must certainly be guarded against, whether the monopoly is a private combine or cartel, or a public corporation. What we have to do is to provide safeguards which will prevent the usual faults of monopoly from arising. I do not feel that these faults have arisen as yet in the B.B.C., and I must say that I was a little puzzled, if he will forgive me for saying so, by what the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, said on this subject. He started off by expressing gratitude to the B.B.C. for their work, and then went on to say that monopoly kills enterprise. I am sure he recognises that the B.B.C. is an enterprising body.
LORD WOOLTON: If I may intervene, it might be a slow death. I do not say that it has started yet. I said only that it was a possibility.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am more optimistic than the noble Lord, and I am hopeful that the slow death will not ensue. In my view, what we want, in the case of the B.B.C., is to ensure constant public supervision and ultimate public control; and we must also arrange for the greatest possible devolution of authority from the centre. To meet the first of these requirements more fully, we are proposing that the Charter should be renewed for fifteen years only, and not indefinitely, with a right of revocation as the Beveridge Committee have suggested. This will give Parliament an opportunity of thinking again about the future of the B.B.C., in the light of the extremely important technical developments which are
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likely to take place in the intervening years. Although, of course, this is longer than any previous renewal of the Charter, I believe that it would be a serious disadvantage to renew it for a shorter period.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, suggested a period of seven years, and I should like to give my reasons for thinking that there are great objections to as short a period as that or, indeed, to any shorter period than the full fifteen years. I believe that we are sometimes apt to forget—because we do not see the inside workings of these matters—that a revision of the Charter, accompanied by a detailed inquiry, occupies the minds of the senior officials of the B.B.C. for something like three years in advance of the Final Report. Of course, this is followed by a further period of adjustment to the provisions in the new Charter. Now I am sure that we do not want to distract these senior officials—these key men—from the important developments in television and sound broadcasting which ought to take place in the next ten years. It is therefore essential that nothing should be done which would prevent them from concentrating on this important objective. This, of course, is not in the least inconsistent with a less far-reaching inquiry in to the way the Corporation are carrying out their responsibilities. We think that such an inquiry might be instituted whenever the Government of the day consider that it would be useful. Here again, we differ from the recommendations of the Beveridge Committee, who thought that an inquiry of this kind at an interval of five years would be sufficient. We think it better, on the whole, not to be tied down to a future date of five years hence, because no one can foresee when circumstances will arise—if they do arise—which will call for a limited inquiry.
Probably the best means of diffusing authority in the B.B.C. is to give more autonomy to the regions. I think there is general agreement that more devolution from the centre is desirable, both for its own sake and because it will give a better chance of self-expression to those parts of the United Kingdom with a distinctive culture and tradition of their own. But it is certainly easier to know what we want to do (about this I think there is general agreement) than to decide

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what is the best way of doing it. The Beveridge Committee suggested that broadcasting commissions should be set up for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, with chairmen who will also sit on the Board of Governors of the B.B.C. The Government agree in principle with this proposal, and also that these authorities in the national regions should have control of their own home programmes, subject, of course, to any obligations which may be binding on the B.B.C.
The controversial matter to which I now come relates to the composition and method of choosing the members of these national regional bodies. In the Government's view the majority of their members should represent and understand local opinion, and the best way to make sure that they will be genuinely representative is to recruit them from elected bodies, such as the county councils and the larger urban authorities. We are proposing that members of these national regional councils should be appointed by the Government, on the nomination of the authorities. It has been argued against this method of recruitment that broadcasting will become political, and that local councillors may lack the broad outlook required for work in connection with broadcasting. I cannot help wondering whether the risk has not been somewhat exaggerated. Like many other members of your Lordships' House I have served for a number of years on a local authority. In my case it was the London County Council. I must confess that I was astonished, when I was first elected, to find how completely Party politics disappeared when both sides met as members of the Council's committees. We all thought of ourselves as administrators, and not as politicians. When there were differences of opinion, they were based on the merits of housing, education or other schemes in connection with the Council's work, and not on differences of Party programmes. I should be surprised if many of your Lordships have not had a similar experience.
Then, of course, many members of the present and past Boards of Governors of the B.B.C. have themselves been active in politics, and have held strong political views. No one would suggest that they would allow their attitude to politics to influence their work for the Corporation.
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For my part, I have found many people of broad outlook and vision in local politics. With the example and the tradition of the B.B.C. to guide them, I see no reason why they should not be expected to avoid political bias. Of course there are noble Lords who would prefer a different constitution for these national regional broadcasting councils. Both noble Lords who have spoken have objected to the proposed composition of these councils. We shall, of course, examine with the utmost care any alternative proposals which may be made, but I must stress that we should like to have alternatives. I am sorry that neither of the noble Lords gave any indication in his speech of what he would like us to do.
Now let me say a word or two on the subject of finance, which has been mentioned by both speakers this afternoon. There has been some criticism of the proposal in the White Paper that the B.B.C. should receive not more than 85 per cent. of its net licence revenue for the next three years. But it seems to us not unreasonable that the Corporation should be asked to share in the heavy sacrifices which firms and individuals are now making for the sake of national defence. We do not regard 15 per cent. of licence revenue as an unreasonable contribution to the country's requirements. It should be remembered that the B.B.C. has never had a right to the whole of the licence revenue. It has, indeed, received 100 per cent. for less than two years, and the amount has sometimes been well below 85 per cent. That it is now receiving more than is actually required to meet current expenditure and a limited capital programme is shown by the fact that it has built up a reserve of £4,500,000—a very large saving. If, in the future, the Corporation should need more money for capital expenditure, we propose to give it the power to borrow up to £10,000,000.
The last thing that any of us wants is to stop or slow down new development, but the capital investment programme, which has to take account of defence requirements, is not likely to allow rapid development in the immediate future. The estimates put before the Beveridge Committee by the B.B.C. indicate that current expenditure for the next three years will be covered by 85 per cent. of the licence revenue. I should like to make it quite

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clear that this proposal we are making is only for the next three years. At the end of that time, the position can be reconsidered, in the light of our national finances. If things are easier, and if the requirements of the B.B.C. are greater, then no doubt we shall be able to make some adjustment. What we are proposing now will, in our view, help the nation at a time of financial stringency, while meeting the legitimate financial requirements of the Corporation.
Before I sit down your Lordships will expect me to say something about higher frequency broadcasting and television. We agree with the Beveridge Committee that very-high-frequency broadcasting is extremely desirable, and should be introduced as soon as circumstances permit. It is the only way we can expect to overcome our present shortage of wavelengths and to provide better reception for the programmes of the B.B.C. We also agree with the Committee that this problem should be referred for consideration by the Television Advisory Committee, which has done such useful work in the past on the subject of television. We shall look to this Committee for technical advice about the best method for short-distance broadcasting. We shall also wish them to consider the implications of such a system in terms of money and materials. There would, of course, have to be an adequate supply of radio sets for listeners to pick up these broadcasts, and a large number of new transmitting stations. The physical problem is a very large one indeed.
In regard to television, we agree with the Beveridge Committee that there should be more administrative devolution within the B.B.C., rather than a separation between sound and visual broadcasts. The theoretical advantages of separate services are more than outweighed by the technical disadvantages. The whole plan of gradually expanding the coverage of television, which the B.B.C. have undertaken bravely and boldly, and which we wish all success, would be delayed by such a dichotomy. But it is encouraging to know that the B.B.C. are giving to the Director of Television authority to give television the status and independence it should have in the work of broadcasting. My Lords, I have covered only a few of the points which noble Lords will wish to raise in the debate. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor will
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wind up, and I know that he will do his best to cover the whole of the ground.
4.11 p.m.
LORD KENSWOOD: My Lords, if I intervene in this discussion with a feeling of anxiety, it is not merely because I am a newcomer to your Lordships' House. I am not altogether happy about the recommendations either of the Report or of the White Paper which are now before your Lordships, and in consequence I have a feeling that I shall come up against the redoubtable wisdom and experience of the Chairman of the Committee of Inquiry. My fears are somewhat mitigated by the statement which your Lordships have just heard from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, to the effect that the White Paper should not be considered as a programme which is to be implemented by the Government, but rather as a basis of discussion.
Already this afternoon certain misconceptions have been expressed, and perhaps expression will be given later to more. These, I think, should not arise if more complete knowledge existed of the workings of the Corporation. A distinguished member of the Committee of Inquiry in another place the other day went so far as to speak of the "Londonisation" of the B.B.C. In the White Paper, as in the Report, we have frequent references to the desirability of further decentralisation and therefore of the collection and utilisation of the local cultures of this Kingdom. These expressions baffle me somewhat. As an ex-Governor, my experience is that it is the continuous desire and preoccupation, not only of the Governors but of the Director-General and of the executive as a whole, to trace out any local aspects which are worth preserving and worth making known to the rest of the country.
Now, my Lords, it may be the best method of approach if I attempt to throw some light on the workings of the B.B.C. At the head, as your Lordships will be aware, is the Board of Governors. The present Board consists of a Chairman, who is a Northerner—and by no stretch of the imagination can he be accused of having strong leanings towards the South in preference to the North. We have a Vice-Chairman and two other Governors who are Scots. The other three Governors derive, one from Wales, one from the West Country, and one from East Anglia. I can see no trace there of any Londoner

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or any desire to favour London or the south over the rest of the country. But, it may be said, what about the people who have the executive power? Well, my Lords, the Director-General comes from the Channel Islands. Of the other five directors, not one comes from London; and, what is more important, the Director of the Home Service is not a Londoner—and it is around the Home Services that the controversy seems to rage. Then, as to the controllers, the Chief Controller of News is a New Zealander, and the Controller of Finance is, of course, a Scotsman.
Now, if we leave London and go to the regions we find that not one controller in any region is a Londoner. What is more, particularly in Scotland and in Wales (I leave out Northern Ireland because I can find no demand anywhere in Northern Ireland to be treated differently from the present) the bulk of the personnel belong to those two nations. I should be very surprised if a single member of the Welsh Region is anything but a Welshman. Then perhaps it may be said that regional programmes are directed from London. But it is not generally realised that there is a basic Home Service, which is compiled of programmes drawn from every part of this country, as well as a few programmes from abroad and from the Dominions and Colonies. Whereas London and the Home Counties must take this programme, the regions—Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the others—need not take any of the particular programmes which constitute the Home Service output, with the sole exception of broadcasts made by His Majesty the King, agreed Party political broadcasts, or broadcasts by His Majesty's Ministers, speaking not as individuals or private persons but only when referring to matters of national importance—for example, the reason why particular articles should be rationed, or why recruiting has to be done in certain spheres. Finally, national news broadcasts must be taken by every part of the country. Decentralisation goes further. Every region has five minutes during the day during which it can bring in news relating to its own region. The only part of the country which does not get this privilege is London. I hope I have said enough to prove to your Lordships that the idea
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of concentration on London, or "Londonisation," is a chimera.
In 1946 there were issued a White Paper and a Charter which was based on the White Paper and under which the B.B.C. is working to-day. In that White Paper and Charter it was suggested that the regions might be reinforced in their work by local advisory councils. These councils were set up in 1947 by the then newly-appointed Board of Governors and they have been functioning perfectly well. They are not perfect—we all admit that. We all know there can be improvements, and the Governors, and, I am sure, the executive as well, are anxious to make those regional councils more effective than they are. The Beveridge Committee Report and the White Paper recognise the value of the regional councils. They say in almost as many words that these councils are adequate for England although they may not be adequate for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Where the difference comes I do not know. I am almost beginning to think that I, as an Englishman, and particularly as a Londoner, belong to the depressed classes of this country. It is said, and doubtless believed, that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have aspects of culture which are much more valuable than those found in the rest of England. But when I look at what can be offered by the North, by Lancashire, Yorkshire, Durham, Northumberland, Westmorland, Cumberland and Derbyshire, when I look at the varied and rich culture in those areas, I am convinced that neither Scotland nor Wales can offer anything that is richer and more varied. Therefore, if separate councils, set up on different lines from those which are good enough for England, are necessary, then they should be necessary also for England.
But I think it is a mistake to appoint national broadcasting councils as suggested in the White Paper, not for the reasons that were given by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, but for entirely different reasons. When the Governors of the B.B.C. set up and continually reviewed the regional advisory councils, they took great trouble to see that every section of the community in those regions was represented on the councils. I know that local politicians are extraordinarily admirable, self-sacrificing and just-minded men and women, but from their very nature they are not suited to give advice to the B.B.C.

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The bulk of the output of the B.B.C. is based on art—and here I speak as an artist. I view with distaste and alarm the suggestion that the local councils should be made up of local politicians. It is not because I fear them as men and women. I know that many of them have artistic feelings, but is it not significant that one rarely finds a practising artist in the ranks of local politicians? The two aspects of life are very different. I know it is a crude generalisation when I say that in local politics you are more concerned with the bricks and mortar and the bread and butter of life—that is to say, the fundamentals that make existence possible—whereas, in the artistic and spiritual spheres, you are concerned with those aspects which make life worth living, which make life a joy. They are two different things. If you concentrate on one aspect you are trying to raise the material level of the nation; but if you concentrate on that, you are liable to forget the other, the intangible capacities of life.
I am quite sure that the men and women who would be chosen for the regional councils, as envisaged in the White Paper, would be honourable people. I know they would be impartial. But they would be suspect, at least in their function of appointing the personnel in their regions. They would be suspect and come under continual criticism as seeking to provide what is commonly known as "jobs for the boys"; in other words, they would be accused of bringing back the "spoils" system into British politics. I am fairly sure that that will not happen, but I am quite definite in my belief that the accusation will be made. I think that the prestige of the B.B.C. ought not to be put to that risk. I am speaking not only of the risks during peace time. In a time of crisis the people of this country and the peoples of other countries must look to the B.B.C. as being the mouthpiece of utterances which can be taken for granted and which are not suspect.
I have already taken up a great deal of your Lordships' time, and there are many other subjects on which I should like to touch. I will deal with them as briefly as I can. With regard to the paragraph of the White Paper concerned with the appointment of Governors, I would point out that it takes some time for a Governor to find his feet. One very dis-
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tinguished member of the Board of Governors put it as long as three years. I think that that is greatly exaggerated, but the fact remains that it does take some time for a Governor to become 100 per cent. effective as a Governor. Therefore I hope that the Government will reconsider their suggestion that the life of a Governor at the B.B.C. should be four years only. I think it should remain at five years. My personal view is that there should be no renewal of position as a Governor, because there should be a continuous, guaranteed inflow of new blood. But if the Government insist on a possibility of renewal—and I agree that it is sometimes difficult to find a suitable Governor at a particular time—then the renewal period should be for not more than three years. If my arguments are correct that the regional advisory councils should remain as they are, but considerably strengthened—and they can be strengthened by experience—then the reason for raising the number of Governors to nine falls to the ground. I think seven Governors is probably the right number. I should like to see five if it could be guaranteed that they would always be there.
May I say just a few words with regard to finance? It is suggested, and it has been eloquently suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that it is right that the B.B.C. should receive only 85 per cent. of the net revenue. Is it generally realised that the B.B.C. have already been very heavily taxed? Apart from income tax, which I think they should not pay and which amounts to £1,400,000, there is the extra tax which the sound listeners have to pay for keeping television alive. That amounts to £1,750,000 a year. The holders of sound licences have, I suggest, no interest at all in television, and yet they have to pay this sum because the Government and the nation feel that television should be kept going until such time as it can be properly developed. There are further taxes. The B.B.C. have to broadcast Ministerial statements and Government advertising, such as requests for recruitment, and so on. The Government have to pay the Press for publishing such advertisements, but the B.B.C. make no charge for them. The B.B.C. are fully alive to the fact that it is a public service. Another public duty is broadcasting to schools, which, from a financial standpoint, is almost a complete loss. In view

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of those facts alone, I think the B.B.C. should receive 100 per cent. of the net licence revenue.
The Government may ask, what would the Corporation do with this money? They may say that it has accumulated £4,500,000 since the end of the war. That accumulation or reserve of money is not a saving in the true sense; it is the result of a self-denial ordinance on the part of the Corporation. There is practically no end to the money which the B.B.C. could spend on broadcasting. The Governors are subjected to continual pressure to increase the hours of broadcasting and to provide more extravagant and costly broadcast programmes. They could easily have spent that money, but the Governors thought they ought to accumulate it. One finds from the Report that, as soon as labour and material are available, the programme of capital outlay amounts to £32,000,000, in order to give this country the sort of broadcasting system that we ought to have. Therefore the Governors have set aside this £4,500,000 accumulated since the end of the war, so that the moment the present stringencies are relieved the Corporation may go ahead with this work. It seems to me a little unfair to say that the B.B.C. has had a surplus and that therefore it could rightly be taxed. That is not true. It has had no surplus. It is just a reserve commitment for the future.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has pointed out that the B.B.C. will be permitted to borrow £10,000,000 for the future. But that sum will not cover the outlay I have mentioned; and when it comes to be borrowed I am sure that ill-informed or perhaps malicious people will say, "Here is another proof that a nationalised industry cannot work except at a loss." That, is something which ought to be avoided. Of course, there is no reason why the B.B.C. should not be taxed. There is such a thing as entertainment tax. But the B.B.C. is the poor man's entertainment. It is a very cheap form of entertainment, which costs about two cigarettes a week. For that reason, I think it should not have this tax imposed upon it. There are many more points that I should have liked to touch upon, but I have kept your Lordships too long already, and I thank you for the courteous attention which has been paid me.
4.34 p.m.
THE EARL OF HALIFAX: My Lords, your Lordships will have been exceedingly happy to have the opportunity of hearing the noble Lord who has just addressed the House, particularly on a subject about which, by virtue of his lengthy service as a Governor of the Corporation, no one in this House has a better right to speak. We are fortunate that, inasmuch as he has ceased to be a Governor, he no longer falls under that self-denying ordinance which was the subject of some exchange across the Table a moment or two ago. We shall hope that he may often be heard in these debates and contribute to their wisdom.
I intervene for only a few moments, to deal quite shortly with two or three points that have already been mentioned, but on which I should like to place your Lordships in possession of the view taken by the General Advisory Council of the B.B.C., of which I have the honour to be Chairman. I do not know whether those of your Lordships who are not concerned with it are fully aware what the General Advisory Council is. It is a very remarkable "mixed grill" of people, representing every geographical region of this Island, almost every conceivable interest, point of view, background, outlook and so on. I mention that only by way of preface, because with that background your Lordships will perhaps appreciate how remarkable it was (so it seemed to me) that all these people should have reached substantial unanimity on matters that certainly are not, as my noble friend Lord Woolton, and the noble Earl who spoke for the Government, said, in any sense Party questions, although they are none the less controversial questions, in the sense that people differ sharply in their judgment of them.
May I permit myself one sentence before dealing with those points? In all that has been said this afternoon, from the admirable speech of the noble Lord who moved this Motion to those who followed him, I think—at least, I hope—that one thing was implicit. In all our minds, I think, when we remember how easily mistakes might be made by the B.B.C., and how wide is the range over which mistakes might be made at any moment, and how quick inevitably would be the detection of any mistake, must be the reflection that the tributes paid by the noble Chairman of the Committee

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(who will speak in a moment), and by all others who have spoken to your Lordships, are the more readily seen to be exceptionally well deserved, not only for successive ranks of Governors but certainly not least for the Director General Sir William Haley, and those who work with him.
The General Advisory Council passed, with substantial unanimity, three resolutions, and, except when I am quoting those resolutions I am in no sense speaking for the Council (I have no authority to do so), but only for myself. The first of the three resolutions with which I wish to deal was that welcoming the recommendation of the Committee as regards monopoly and independence, and so on. About that, I do not think it is necessary for me to add anything to what has already been said. On that matter I agree entirely, if I may say so, with what fell from the noble Lord who spoke last, and with what fell from the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. The second resolution dealt with the regional point, and said this:
"That, while fully recognising the importance of reflecting in the broadcasting service the individual contribution of local and national cultures, it disagrees with the proposals of the Committee for the creation of broadcasting Commissions for Scotland. Wales and Northern Ireland on the ground that such proposals:
(a) are unnecessary"—
I omit the irrelevant words—
"(b) would be likely to prove detrimental to the standard and quality of the broadcasting service."
My Lords, I will not spend time discussing further the argument about broadcasting councils to be drawn from county councils and other urban authorities. Like President Coolidge and the preacher on sin, I "against it." I hope that what has been said by the noble Lord who spoke last, and others, will have induced the noble Earl in spite of what he said, to advise his colleagues to reconsider that one. The real problem there, however, is this: if you do not have people elected, and you do anything to encourage the regional idea, then, clearly, you must have them selected. Personally, if I had to do anything by way of developing the regional idea. I would prefer to see five or six just and wise men selected in the regions to do the job. In the second part of the problem, obviously, the choice lies between executive and advisory. I believe that it is on every
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ground essential to have no confusion as to whether these people are to be executive or advisory. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, made that point very clearly. I have no doubt that, unless you come down clearly with a decision that they are to be advisory, you are going to run the gravest risk of having some kind of hydra-headed authority, whereas you ought to insist on and recognise the importance of having a single authority and one set of standards right through the service.
The next point I should like to make relates to the term of review. I am not very much shocked at the idea of a fifteen-year term. I rather agree with the noble Earl who spoke for the Government, that a long uninterrupted run is a good thing, and Parliament has the right to overhaul and intervene if it wants to. That is my personal view. The General Advisory Council, however, on balance of argument, came with substantial unanimity to favour a period of ten years; and it may be that ten years would not be a bad compromise. I do not at all like my noble friend's proposal for a period of seven years. With all respect to him, I think that that is too short. If fifteen years is regarded as too long, I hope that we may come down in favour of the ten-year suggestion.
Lastly, I associate myself with those who hope that the Government will reconsider the financial point. Here I speak personally, as I am not sure whether the Advisory Council passed a resolution on this or whether they did not. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, spoke about a reserve fund, and the noble Lord who spoke last has, of course, dealt fully with that point. I imagine that there would not have been any reserve fund if the B.B.C. had been allowed to spend as they wanted in these last two years. If the noble Earl should feel disposed to answer that by saying: "Why is it necessary for them to build up a fund if they are not going to spend for another three years?" my answer would be: "Because they will want all the money they can get when they are able to spend; they are desirous of Implementing all sorts of schemes which the public has asked for." And what is this £1,750,000 which the Government propose to retain? It is a mere drop in the ocean, compared with the Government's often profligate expenditure. The Government will not suffer

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very much by allowing the B.B.C. to have it, but if they are not allowed to have it the B.B.C. will feel the loss very severely. I hope that the noble Earl will feel able to give some reconsideration to this point, and will not deny to the B.B.C. the material sinews to enable them to keep themselves—as we all feel they ought to be to-day—in the forefront of national broadcasting systems. I do not think it is worth not allowing them to have this money, and if the noble Earl insists on doing so, I think he will run the risk of spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar. That is all I have to say. On the first three points I have ventured to give you the views of the General Advisory Council, and I hope that on the last point I have mentioned the Government may be prepared to have second thoughts.
4.45 p.m.
LORD BEVERIDGE: My Lords, in rising to address your Lordships for the first time in this Chamber, I am reminded inevitably of another occasion, now nearly seven years ago, when also I rose for the first time in this Chamber, but to address a very different assembly. I was then a denizen of another place, and with my fellow denizens who had invaded this Chamber I was engaged in discussing a Government White Paper on Social Insurance, in relation to a Report on Social Insurance written by myself—a large and rather noisy baby, as I then described it, which, two years before, I had left upon the Government's doorstep. With a delicacy suitable to a maiden speech, I admitted paternity of that baby. I agreed that the proposals of the Government White Paper upon Social Insurance were substantially those contained in the Beveridge Report of 1942. To-day I find myself once more in this same Chamber, discussing a Government White Paper, this time a White Paper in relation to a Report on Broadcasting, made by a Committee of which I was chairman. That Report may also be considered a rather large, if not noisy baby. There, alas! the similarity between the two occasions ends. I am not able to admit that the proposals of the Government White Paper are my baby at all though they are dressed up in some ways to look like it.
I want to say this at the outset, because the Government, no doubt, take a rather different view. They say in their White
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Paper—and the expressed view of their spokesman in another place was also to this effect—that substantially they have adopted the recommendation of our Report. I do not think they have. There are vital differences of spirit, substance and effect between the White Paper and the Report. Let me begin with the beginning of the White Paper. In Paragraph 4, having quoted the Committee's praise of the B.B.C. for impartiality and high standards, the White Paper goes on, in Paragraph 5, to attribute to the majority of the Committee the view that the best interests of British broadcasting require the continuance of the British Broadcasting Corporation on substantially the same basis as it has existed in the past. As I have already said in an earlier interjection, there are no words of that sort anywhere in the Report. We do not say that we think the B.B.C. should go on substantially as in the past. Indeed, we say the contrary, as definitely and vigorously as we can—and we say it several times. We say that the Charter of the future must be different from that of the past. We recite all the dangers of monopoly, beginning with Londonisation, going on to secretiveness and self-satisfaction and ending up with the danger of a sense of mission becoming a sense of divine right—and your Lordships know that it does do that sometimes, even in the B.B.C. But after most laborious discussion, we came to the conclusion that, in the special circumstances of British broadcasting, there was not now any immediate practical alternative to continuing a public service monopoly for broadcasting.
May I here answer Lord Woolton by saying that I rather think we gave fairly definite and clear reasons for coming to that conclusion? I would refer him to Paragraphs 171 to 176. Having laboriously discussed this question of monopoly with the advocates of competition, Mr. Geoffrey Crowther and others, we came to the conclusion that
"The practical issue reduces itself to the choice between chartering three or four Broadcasting Corporations on terms requiring them to co-operate and accept Government vetoes and directions on certain points, and chartering a single broadcasting Corporation subject to the same vetoes"—
and then in our Report come the operative words, which differentiate it from the White Paper—

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"and requiring it to make steady progress towards greater decentralisation, devolution, and diversity."
We then decided that we must choose the second of these alternatives. I need not repeat our reasons; they are all in the Report, and have been given to the House by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. That meant that we did not want the B.B.C. in its present form, but in a somewhat different form. The Report proposed four important changes, which in the White Paper are watered down or rejected.
Before dealing with these changes, however, I should like to get out of the way an entirely different problem, that of commercial broadcasting. The Government White Paper has, I think, most innocently, misrepresented the views of the Committee on the basis on which a monopoly should be continued; and it goes on to what I feel is a slight misrepresentation of the Committee, when it says that the Committee were against commercial broadcasting. The fact is that seven members of the Committee were against any advertising on the air at all; one was for sponsored broadcasting; and three, including myself and both women members of the Committee, were in favour of allowing advertising to be used under strictly limited conditions and at strictly limited times. We thought that the ether should be used just as particular columns in the newspapers are used for advertising. I am not going to discuss the merits of that proposal. All I want to say is that a minority of four against a majority of seven is fairly substantial, and might have been mentioned in the White Paper. With reference to what was said by my noble friend Lord Samuel, I must say that all his grisly pictures of what would happen if we plastered the walls with advertisements of gin, in order to pay expenses, have no relevance to what was proposed by the three members of the Committee. I would ask my noble friend to look at their views on the matter as set out in Paragraph 376. I will not waste the time of the House by reading that now, because it is a minor point. All of us on the Committee wanted a public service of broadcasting, whether a complete monopoly or not, engaged only in public service and not dependent on money from advertisements.
I now come to the four essential points of difference between the White Paper and
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my Report. These are the measures designed to secure
"steady progress towards greater decentralisation, devolution, and diversity"
and, let me add, towards self-criticism within the B.B.C. All these measures are watered down or rejected in the White Paper. They concern the salaried commissions for national regions; the public representation service; the strengthening of the position of the Government, as distinct from the staff; and the quinquennial review of the work of the Corporation. I need not say much about the first of these points. I hope we can take it that the proposal in the White Paper for regional councils of twenty-five, having a majority of representatives nominated by the local authorities, is practically dead. That idea has found hardly any friends anywhere. I object to it, as others have done, on the ground that we ought not to allow persons elected to control the programmes, any more than we should allow members of another place to control the programmes, or allow the Government to control the programmes beyond the limited powers given to them by the Charter.
I have another and different objection, which is that these councils of twenty-five representatives would not be effective for the purpose the Committee had in view. I think that was well brought out in another place during a discussion between Mr. Gordon-Walker and Lady Megan Lloyd George. Speaking on behalf of the Government, Mr. Gordon-Walker said that the only function of these councils was to control; they had nothing to do with initiating. In our Report we say that we want a small body who would really apply their minds to these problems, who would initiate and make suggestions, and keep the regional controller in touch with the opinion of his region—to do far more than the large councils would do. I believe that is necessary. It is true that the regional controller has now all but absolute autonomy over the contents of his programmes; but that is not enough. The regional controller depends for his money and staff upon the central control in London. Only one-fourth of the Home Service in the Northern Regions is regional in character, while seven-eighths of everything that goes over the air is uniform, in spite of the diversity of culture in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and other parts of the

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country. We shall get effective decentralisation only by breaking up the corporation into subordinate, fully controlled commissions or doing something of that kind. While I hope that the Government's own proposal is dead, I trust that they will not go back, taking what I think was bad advice given by one of the speakers in the other place, and leave things as they are. The noble Earl opposite asked for suggestions. I would remind him that there are all the suggestions in our Report.
I should like to express my admiration for the maiden speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, but I should like to make one point in answer to him. First, I do not feel that representation according to the national regions of the officers meets our point. I myself was born in India, but I do not suggest thereby that, if I were on an advisory council, India would consider herself represented. I will ask the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, to study the reasons which led to our proposal in paragraphs 522 to 527. May I go on, and say that we did not leave England to go on stewing in its present juice. If the noble Lord will look at paragraph 536, he will see improvements that we propose for England, as distinct from these national regions. That is all I can say on that first point.
LORD CALVERLEY: I am sorry to interrupt, but will the noble Lord please move nearer to a microphone?
LORD BEVERIDGE: I should like to thank the noble Lord. This is my first speech in this Chamber since it was renovated, and I am glad the noble Lord has given me the opportunity of making myself heard.
I now come to the second point: that the Report proposed a public representation service. We regarded that as an essential means of filling a lack, which we state pretty bluntly, in the existing structure of the B.B.C. We wanted to give the Governors
"what they now lack—namely, the means of performing adequately the duty of keeping executive officials in touch with outside opinion, both expert and lay."
My noble friend Lord Samuel said that it was wrong to have special officials as channels of criticism, because it ought
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to be the duty of every official who had produced a programme to listen and pay attention. Would that not be a good reason for saying that no Members of another place should be allowed to ask questions about how a civil servant had acted; that, since it ought to be the duty of a civil servant adequately to consider criticism, no further steps were needed to make him do that? We do not believe that about civil servants, however. Why should we believe it about the staff of the B.B.C.? If you look at the case put up in our Report for a public representation service, you will see that we considered all alternatives to having this new service in the B.B.C. We point out that to a busy official engaged upon the next programme, criticism about a past programme is apt to come as an irritating fly to be brushed away as quickly and as smoothly as can be done. Let me recall our central problem. Our central problem was to control a bureaucracy without controlling it by Parliament. That means, in effect, that it must have within itself its own organs of criticism and control. If that causes friction, then that is a necessary friction to prevent settling down into mere officialdom.
I do not want to dwell at length upon actual criticisms made of the B.B.C., but I am bound to mention one or two points. I am considerably surprised by the importance attached in the White Paper to the assurances received from the Governors that they fully agree that effective representation of public opinion is vital to the good working of the Corporation. But my Committee have said—and we said it with deliberation, and after full inquiry—that the Governors of the past have not yet established, and the Director-General has not yet established, the means necessary for keeping contact with serious criticism. They have not, in fact, sufficient channels for public criticism to become effective. On that, I must refer to Paragraph 221 in our Report, which says:
"What is most wanted is to make clear that when interest"—
from outside—
"takes the form of careful considered criticism, that criticism will always have its fair reward of consideration in the Corporation hierarchy. It should become less and less possible for such words and phrases to be used about the B.B.C. as were used in talking to us by responsible outsiders, not in rancour but as recognition of the obvious—

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words like 'pontifical' or 'Olympian', phrases like 'a closed shop' or 'they do not welcome suggestions'."
Before I submitted that draft to my Committee, I gave them the names of people who had made those remarks. I shall be happy to send them, in confidence, to the Governors of the B.B.C. and to the Government, if they have not already got them. If you set up a bureaucracy you must have some method of bringing criticism to bear upon it. You should not have detailed Parliamentary criticism of broadcasting. That is why we of the Committee, after full consideration, proposed this organ of internal criticism, and I hope that we shall get it.
I should now like to come to the third point which, in some respects, is the most important. The Report proposed to strengthen the position of the Governors, so as to make them effective watchdogs of democracy. We proposed to increase their number. We proposed to reduce traditional inhibitions on their actions. We proposed to make their reappointment free. We proposed to increase their salary so as to get more call upon their services. On all points except the first the White Paper either rejects or waters down what we proposed. May I, at this point, endeavour to answer a question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton? He asked what we meant by the Recommendation about the powers of the Minister. What we mean is that the Governors, collectively, should have the unrestricted powers of the Minister over the whole of his Department; and they can exercise that power collectively, as they desire. If they choose to ask one or more of their members to look into any particular thing, then they should be free to do so.
LORD WOOLTON: Obviously, Governors should have the power to ask people to make inquiries. The issue I raised was whether they should have power to give instructions to staff.
LORD BEVERIDGE: I do not think we proposed that they should ever give instructions to staff, unless, indeed, the instruction was necessary to get their inquiries carried out. That will be settled by the resolutions of the Governors. I may say that we felt that Governors ought not to be like the crowd in Wordsworth's poem:
"That moveth altogether, if it move at all."
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They should be able to specialise. May I refer to one further point in the White Paper, where it disagrees with a proposition of the Report about Overseas services? We propose that the Overseas services should have a quite different function from that of broadcasting at home. A special committee of the Governors has been formed so that they could be examined on behalf of the Governors, without using up all the time of all the Governors. I do not know whether that was a good proposition or not. I can say only that it has been turned down in the White Paper for two reasons, both of which appear to be bad. The first reason, which was given by the spokesman of the Government in another place, was that none of the departments concerned with Overseas broadcasting wanted this. We of the Committee were not concerned with what the officials of particular departments wanted or not. We were concerned with how we could make overseas broadcasting a real projection of Britain, and how we could ensure that criticism and comment upon those broadcasts would reach the Governors. The second reason given was that this was not practicable. But why should the Governors be unable to appoint sub-committees for special purposes? To me it means nothing at all. Perhaps when the noble and learned Viscount answers he will be able to enlighten me.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): Can the noble Lord give me a reference to the White Paper? I cannot recognise a word of what he has said. May I also say that I did not understand the noble Lord's answer to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton's question at all? Does he or does he not say that the Board of Governors should be able to give instructions to staffs?
LORD BEVERIDGE: The Board of Governors should be able to give instructions as to what shall be done by the staff—certainly.
LORD WOOLTON: May we pursue this matter, because it is very important? To whom shall they give instructions? Obviously, the Board of Governors must be in a position to give instructions to someone, otherwise they are not governing. Will they give them through the Director General—that is to say, will they be functioning in a corporate capacity,

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and give their instructions through the Director General? Or will they be able to go round "fiddling" among the staff giving instructions? That was the issue I raised.
LORD BEVERIDGE: I am saying that, whether there is one Director General or more than one, they will give instructions through the Director General or Directors General to the appropriate departments. This is a problem with which every Government Department is concerned, and is a question which arises in every Government Department. Those are my answers.
May I come now to the last point? The Report proposed, as one of its essential features a quinquennial review, and proposed at the same time that there was no need for a time limit in the Charter at all. Once granted, the Charter can be revoked at any time.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should like to know whether I am to receive a reference from the noble Lord. He said that in the White Paper we had made certain proposals with regard to Overseas services. I shall be most grateful if he will give me a reference.
LORD BEVERIDGE: I will look for it, and give it to the noble and learned Viscount later, if he will allow me, in order not to take up the time of the House. I come now to this quinquennial review. What we had in mind was that probably, on the present basis, the continuance of a single Corporation could be regarded as certain, until there was a complete change either of scientific conditions or anything else. Therefore, there was no real reason or sense in imposing any fixed time limit to the Charter. More important, we thought that if there were no fixed time limit, it would increase the significance of the quinquennial review, to which we attach considerable importance. It is not a fundamental inquiry, such as that which my Committee have just conducted, and would not mean that the Corporation would have to go through anything like the kind of work it has gone through for us. It is an investigation of what it has done on specific points; it should be required to state, for instance, just what it has done, or why it has not done anything, on each of the fifty-nine Recommendations made for it in our Report. Not all of the Recommendations
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are for action, and upon many of them the Corporation may not take any action at all. But I feel that the Houses of Parliament, in considering the B.B.C.—as they will be doing in an Annual Report from time to time—ought to have the benefit of an independent report as to what the Corporation has done in that respect, as in other respects.
I am a little afraid of the argument which was used, I think, by the noble Earl, Lord Halifax, and which was raised in another place by the spokesman of the Government: that one must be very careful not to disturb the B.B.C. about their work. It might equally be said that one must be very careful not to disturb civil servants about their work. Yet Parliament insists upon disturbing them by asking questions. We propose to reduce that disturbance to the minimum, but we also propose that the B.B.C. should feel that they are working under independent watch. We thought the automatic quinquennial review a reasonable way of ensuring that. The alternative of the White Paper leaves it for the Government to move for action. One never knows whether the Government will do that or not. Let me repeat that the normal quinquennial review would not go into the issue of monopoly. But it would show how monopoly was working, by an independent expert review of how the Corporation was working. Of course, in the light of that, there might be material for reopening the question of monopoly if it were found that the Corporation were continuing to do things which they ought not to do.
These four points of practical difference between the Report and the White Paper all illustrate a fundamental difference of outlook. My Committee were profoundly impressed by the dangers and disadvantages of monopoly in so vital a service as broadcasting. The Government, to judge by their White Paper, are not conscious of any dangers at all. There is nothing in the White Paper to show that the Government have even read those parts of the Report, though I have no doubt that some of their officials have. Apart from the major discrepancies which I have mentioned between the Report and the White Paper, this difference of outlook appears again and again in the treatment of special problems such as veryhigh-frequency broadcasting. On this

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matter, the noble Earl on the Government Front Bench to-day was much more forthcoming. I welcome his statement that the Government are alive to the possibility of very-high-frequency broadcasting, Leading to independent local stations.
There are other points that I could raise, but I have already spoken too long. Perhaps your Lordships will permit me to say one or two final things to which I feel reference must be made. I have said already that whatever may be the merits of the White Paper proposals, they cannot be put forward as proposals based on our Report. I ask the Government, with all the earnestness I can, to reconsider their White Paper and think over the whole matter again—and to think rather differently from the White Paper. When I consider how the great power of broadcasting is used in other countries—how in some countries it is frittered away for unimportant commercial purposes, and how in other countries it is used to dragoon men's minds, to preach hatred, and to support irremovable dictators—I personally (and I am sure I speak for my Committee) thank heaven that we in this country have a public service broadcasting system to give a voice to freedom and to humanity. For that great gain we owe, as we all know, more to one man—the noble Lord, Lord Reith—than any of us can ever express. But (there is always a but") as T. H. Huxley pointed out:
"The devoted leaders of revolution in one generation can and do become tyrants in the next generation."
All institutions, like all men, are subject to decay as they begin to feel secure. We of the Broadcasting Committee did not take lightly the continuance of a monopoly of broadcasting in this country. We accepted continuance of monopoly because we felt that by taking the necessary steps we could establish effective safeguards against the dangers of monopoly. I beg the Government to consider doing more, not less, than we propose in this matter of safeguards against the evils of monopoly. I make the same appeal to those who are in charge of the B.B.C.
5.26 p.m.
LORD RADCLIFFE: My Lords, in taking the first opportunity which I have had of addressing your Lordships, I think myself fortunate that the subject upon
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which I am enabled to address you is that of the B.B.C., because for the last twelve years I have, in one capacity or another, found myself in close touch with that Corporation. Therefore it is with a sense of piety that I seek to say something about the questions raised by the White Paper: not because my association with the B.B.C. has led to any feeling of reverence—indeed, far from itx2014;but because it has led me to entertain for that body a feeling of genuine admiration and affection. I will be as brief as I can, because your Lordships, may well think that you have by now heard nearly all that can be said about the B.B.C. and broadcasting in this country. I will not begin with any needless compliments to the work done by the Beveridge Committee; but I will just say that the Report is by far the most comprehensive and most complete treatment of the subject: of the B.B.C. that has been made during, the comparatively short years of its existence. The Sykes Committee Report in 1923, the Crawford Committee Report in 1925, the Ullswater Committee Report in 1939, and now the Beveridge Report, all indicate that the B.B.C.'s roots have been taken up and investigated with increasing thoroughness fairly often during its brief history.
The Beveridge Report, if I may say so again, contains many admirable and wise things about the problem of broadcasting. If I am less enthusiastic about some of the proposals that it makes for change than I am about the wise and perceptive things that it says, that is because I have become a little tainted through association with bureaucracy itself. I think that, for good reasons or for bad, the system of broadcasting that has been established in this country has worked extraordinarily well; and I would rather, at this stage, see it allowed to advance on the same lines, without any material alterations, than see alterations made which theory might recommend but which I feel would produce substantial divergencies in practice.
I should like to say one thing on the subject which I feel is of great importance, and it concerns these proposed national councils—"commissions" as recommended by the Report; "councils" as termed in the White Paper. It is my hope that the Government will reconsider from the beginning not merely their

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own addition to the Committee's proposals—that is, that the majority of these councils for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should be drawn from local authorities (a suggestion of which I will say only that I would deprecate it) and that they should be unpaid in the great work that they would be called upon to do, but also the wisdom of having these councils at all, with the powers proposed for them and responsible themselves for the contents and policy of their Home programmes. In my view, this proposal cuts right across the advantages that we have hitherto enjoyed from a unified system of broadcasting.
I made an effort to see what were the memoranda which had been placed before the Committee or published in their Appendix which led to this suggestion. Of course, when a Committee of this kind sits, it is a natural thing, if I may say so, that it should have proposals brought in from those who are nationally conscious that they should be set free from the suggested paralysing influence of the urban and debased culture of London, and that they should be allowed to prosecute their own broadcasting way in the true national spirit. Two papers were sent in from Scotland, three from Wales and none from Northern Ireland, which has this un-coveted benefit of a national, responsible council given to it—somewhat, I imagine, to its own consternation. However, there were proposals from Scotland and from Wales and, of course, as one would expect, they ran on various lines of criticism. One said that it was an indignity that the people in Scotland or in Wales should not have their own independent national corporation. Another was a series of really rather trivial comments about somebody (it is amazing how long the memory of broadcasting critics is) who in 1936 did not pronounce a Scottish word rightly, or somebody who at some time forgot a proper date on the Welsh Service—trivial things of that sort.
Then came, of course, the substantial and worthy criticisms raising the question whether the regional services as promoted by the B.B.C. (for they all have their regional services) were really an adequate reflection of the resources of local talent, and genuinely responded sensitively to the background of the national and local culture which they were serving. That, of
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course, as everyone appreciates, is a perfectly genuine criticism to raise, and something well worth investigating. But, when one comes to look into it, the extent to which it is possible to make a regional programme fully responsive to all the treasures that may lie hidden in the region depends upon the resources that one commands for the purpose and those resources depend untimately, as always, upon transmitters, upon personnel and upon all the various and expensive forms of equipment which, if available to an unlimited extent for the service of each region, would no doubt lead to a more thoroughly satisfactory service being provided for the people listening in that region. But can it be done with the overall resources available for the service of the whole country?
That can be met, as I suggest, by one of two measures, neither of which is proposed by the Beveridge Committee or by the Government White Paper. You may respond to the national pressure and say: "Very well; take your own independent broadcasting corporation. Do then as well as you can and attract as many listeners as you can on your own responsibility." But then, with what money and with what resources would they do it? Are you to give them all the revenue from the broadcasting licences in their area? If you do, you are most unfair, because you are giving them revenue from licences which really are, and will be, paid for, for listening not merely to the home programme that they will produce but to the country-wide Light Programme, by far the most popular of all, and the Third Programme so far as it is available to the listening facilities in their area.
But even if you gave them all the revenue they could get from their local licences, would they be provided with the great service of talent and treasure that they envisage? I doubt it. On the only figures which the Beveridge Committee have been able to extract, Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland are all deficiency areas, from the point of view of broadcasting. That means that, even today, more money is spent upon the services which are given them than is received from licences which are obtained from them. Those figures are subject to the many quite justified criticisms which the Committee make because of the allocation

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of central services, and they are by no means satisfactory or final. But there is no reason to suppose that even to-day those areas, if they were given the revenue from all the licences that they have within them, would be self-supporting with the kind of service that they want to run.
That is one side of the question. The other side is this. You may say: "Well, the B.B.C., after all, have regional services." The idea that they are subject to Londonisation is destroyed by the Beveridge Committee, who find that the regions have almost complete programme autonomy for their regional programmes. The real question is what one can do to develop the contact with the regional controller—who, after all, wants to make a success of his region—by drawing upon his regional advisory council (which exists although it is a fairly new institution) and by seeing whether he ought to have a larger allocation of the total fund and the total resources available for the service of his particular region than he has under existing allocations to-day. It may be he is in an area where reception is particularly difficult owing to the mountainous configuration that is found in Wales or in Scotland, where, of course, the population is widely distributed and not easy to cover. Maybe they ought to have a larger share of the total licence revenue, even if they are drawing upon English listeners for the purpose. That is a question of policy that has to be considered and decided upon and, if necessary, the funds must be allocated under some formula. You have to make up your mind whether under the existing system the listener in Scotland or Ireland is being unfairly starved or not.
The proposals we have before us are these: to institute these independent bodies, who are to be responsible for creating their own local home programme and choosing their own staff. There is all the difficulty of setting up and maintaining the standards of broadcasting that we have in the B.B.C. itself, and which, indeed, are hard to maintain the nearer one gets to the point of pressure. Instead of letting those people follow out the idea of having their own resources and money the capital development which may be needed to increase the service in their area, the B.B.C., by these proposals, are left in control of the
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finance; they are left in the position of saying: "You cannot have more for Scotland," or "You cannot have more for Ireland than you are having to-day, because it would not be fair if you did." They are left in the position of holding up development by saying: "You cannot have a new transmitter or a new studio here." The total result is that instead of, if I may quote the amiable prose of the Beveridge Committee, substituting what is called a "federal harmony for centralised control," you are providing the finest method that I can envisage for creating permanent quarrels between the B.B.C., who control the purse strings and the power to hold up capital development, and these local bodies, conscious of the functions they have been appointed to fulfil, who will continually maintain that they ought to have more and more money and who, if they do not get it, will say they are not being allowed to carry out the purpose for which they were appointed. I have mentioned those difficulties as shortly as I can. It is difficult in a subject as complex as this to say anything shortly, but that is my fundamental criticism of the basis of the idea of two national councils, and before they adopt the idea, I beg the Government to see whether the development of the existing B.B.C. system, if necessary with improved facilities, setting a formula, is not the better method.
I have only two more points I wish to place before your Lordships, and they can be briefly stated. One might say a word on behalf of the Committee's proposals with regard to the Governors which, as the noble Lord who has just spoken pointed out, have been rather watered down by the White Paper. It is plain that the Committee were struck, as one is when one comes to investigate the position and structure of the B.B.C., by the immense power that necessarily resides in the permanent official. That cannot be avoided in any organisation devoted to the production either of writing or of speech. There is an idea that large questions of policy are always arising which can be settled in advance by the board, but that is a mistake. Nearly every question that has to be decided is a question ad hoc, which has been decided for you by the man down below, on the spot, long before you have time to think out its policy implication.

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The position of any board in these matters is one of holding a rather sad postmortem when a serious mistake has been made, and of attempting in advance, so far as possible, to lay down in the most broad and general prose what they believe to be the policy and instructions that their subordinates should follow.
But, having said that, I entirely agree with the view of the Committee that the true democratic control of this peculiar, though successful, organisation lies in giving to the Governors, I would say as a body, as much control on policy as possible. If you are going to do that, may I just say these two things? The man comes in there first as a new Governor. I will not venture to estimate the number of months or years it takes him to find his feet in this enormous organisation, but in my view it cannot be in his first or second year—to put it mildly. If he has to retire at the end of the fourth year, with only an exceptional chance of reappointment in exceptional cases, it means wasting the time and energy that he has put into the service. I would beg that he should be naturally reappointable, unless there is anything to be said against him, or any reason to bring in new blood which is felt to be necessary. Otherwise, you are throwing away the advantages you have gained by the man learning his job and finding his feet. The amount of work he will have had to do in those years, in order to familiarise himself with the services and the problems of the B.B.C. and to keep his eye on his work, is such that, if you pay him £1,000 a year, you are not really paying hint too much; and if you go back again to £600 you are not paying him fairly for what you are asking him to do. May I support the Committee in this respect: that their recommendation for £1,000 and free reappointment should be reconsidered favourably by the Government?
My Lords, there is one last thine—namely, the question of the term of the new Charter. The Committee recommended an indefinite term, subject to what I would call quinquennial assassination by review. If I may, I would put in a word on behalf of the solution that the Government have chosen. Have a Charter for fifteen years if you please; but do not attempt to reconsider either the whole
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or a part of the structure until that fifteen years is running out. After all, the point of granting a Charter is that it contains the conditions which are to be observed, and those concerned should be given the length of time the Charter is to run. That franchise is what they need to keep them free from interference, whether it is from the Executive, or from Parliament, or from anybody else. If they do not palpably observe the conditions of the Charter, then, when you find that out, have an inquiry on as high a level as you like, and see whether it is right that they are not observing the conditions of the Charter and are in danger of having it forfeited. That is one thing. If, on the other hand, something of real importance turns up during the currency of the Charter—something which is not affected by the conditions but which goes far towards revolutionising the position in which the B.B.C., or possibly the listener, stands—of course the Government of the day, and Parliament, must step in and appoint their committee to consider the matter. But, apart from those two situations, I suggest that we should allow the Corporation to enjoy the benefit of the assurance and of the freedom to move and progress within a fixed term. Let nothing, hang over them, such as taking their pulse and their temperature, which will upset the whole organisation for years at a time.
LORD BEVERIDGE: My Lords, perhaps the House will allow me to intervene to correct a mistake which I made. There is no reference in the White Paper to the Overseas Committee, and therefore there is no need for the noble and learned Viscount to deal with that point in my speech, though of course he is at liberty to do so in so far as it is dealt with in Paragraph 539 of the Beveridge Report. There is nothing in the White Paper.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I thank the noble Lord very much. When I asked the noble Lord where it was in the White Paper I was fully aware that it was not there.
5.48 p.m.
LORD BRAND: My Lords, I think you will wish me on your behalf to congratulate my noble and learned friend Lord Radcliffe on his brilliant and comprehensive speech. He has been a colleague and friend of mine for many

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years, and it would be impertinent for me to attempt to describe to your Lordships what you know very well—how great an ornament and addition he will be to this House. He may not often wish to speak, but when he does I am sure we shall listen to him with the extreme pleasure with which we have listened to-day. In fact, I may say that, when he made his speech, I nearly decided to tear up my notes and to say nothing to your Lordships, because I agree so thoroughly with everything he has said. I will, however, venture to make a few brief remarks—for two reasons. First of all, I have been for some years a member of the General Advisory Council of the B.B.C., and secondly. I have also had an opportunity, which perhaps not many of your Lordships have had, to listen for a good many years to the sponsored programmes on the American radio. I should like to say something arising out of that experience. First, however, I would say a word on the question of monopoly. We all agree that a monopoly may be a very bad thing, and is a dangerous thing; but we have already heard all the arguments against it, and therefore I shall rest content with the small mercy, or perhaps the great mercy, which we have at present—namely, notwithstanding its being a monopoly, an extremely efficient and admirable system of broadcasting under the present management of the B.B.C. I think we can wait to consider what are the dangers of monopoly, if and when we find that things are going wrong—as they are not doing at present.
I should now like to come to the question of commercial broadcasting, to which my noble friend Lord Woolton has referred, and with regard to which he made a certain suggestion. I must say that, having listened for six years or so to the American radio, I am not in favour of any commercial broadcasting in this country. I believe that, if you introduce commercial broadcasting at any point, it is likely to spread; and I am afraid (I am not sure that here I do not differ from Lord Woolton) that Gresham's Law works, so far as broadcasting is concerned. If you have sponsored broadcasting, the advertiser wants one thing only: to get the biggest possible audience. We all know that you do not get the biggest possible audience by, shall I say, the most, educated and cultured kinds of broadcasting. You get it by coming down
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to a fairly low level. In fact, the bad money drives out the good, and your broadcasting will descend to a lower level. It is true that you must have amusement as well as instruction.
Perhaps critics of broadcasting are divided into two groups. One group consists of those who wish to give the public amusement and the other of those who wish to give it instruction. You cannot do either solely. You should give as much instruction as you can. Indeed, in the end, I believe, the real aim of broadcasting is gradually—it takes a tremendously long time—to raise the general level of knowledge in the country. Of course, I know that the American radio companies produce a great deal of good broadcasting. It is impossible to have the application of American skill, ingenuity and enterprise without a great many good things being done. But commercial sponsoring itself is really, I think, a poisonous influence on broadcasting. I remember how, during the war, when we were going through a very bad time and when the United States was not then one of the belligerents, one sometimes found oneself listening, perhaps, to some tragic war news—and there was plenty of it, in the first year or two of t he war—and then, suddenly there would be an intervention of a commercial nature. Even a good broadcaster like Mr. Raymond Gram Swing might say: "I shall stop now to give my sponsor a chance of saying what he wants to say"; and so, in the middle of a tragic story, you would get some very luxuriant advertising for Kreml Hair Cream, or for some pills or something of that sort. That kind of thing certainly did not help much to give the population a proper sense of proportion, as to what was important and what was not.
I do not know whether any of your Lordships ever saw a cartoon which appeared, I think, in The New Yorker. It showed a father leading his small boy out of church. The father had taken his son to church for the first time, and as they came out, he said to the little boy: "How did you like the service?" The little boy replied: "I liked the 'Commercial' very much." By the "Commercial" the little boy meant the sermon, and his idea was that the parson was "selling" the church to the congregation. That type of broadcasting does spread a general feeling that nearly everything is for sale or is somehow connected with

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commercial sales talk. I agree indeed with the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, that the commercial side of life should not take too great a share of public attention.
A day or two ago I noticed in the New York Herald-Tribune something which, to my mind, shows how much the B.B.C. gain by not having sponsored programmes. It was an article from Bonn, in Germany, by an American writer who compared the "Voice of America" with the B.B.C. The article contained this passage:
"That the 'Voice' is basically American propaganda seems to be quite clear in the minds of German listeners, with whom the B.B.C. still holds the great advantage of being synonymous with truth in news' … The British, moreover, have the advantage of a tone and style of broadcasting which is more attuned to the European ear than the 'huckster atmosphere' of Voice of America 'Democracy sales', which may or may not be the feature of the programs but nevertheless have in the past set the tone for listeners."
That is where the B.B.C. gain tremendously in having nothing to do with commercial broadcasting. It is not connected with the selling of everything whereas it is extremely difficult for our American friends to get away from the idea that what is being done through the radio is to sell something to the audience. Therefore, I should be rather sorry to see Lord Woolton's idea——
LORD WOOLTON: Will the noble Lord forgive me for interrupting, but he has completely misinterpreted me? I have been listening with the greatest interest to what he has been saying, but I would point out that I did not suggest that the B.B.C. should go in for this huckstering.
LORD BRAND: I thought you did. If you did not, I apologise.
I have just one or two things to add to what the noble Earl, Lord Halifax, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Radcliffe, said about what the Beveridge Committee's Report said with regard to regional organisation. I think advisory functions, executive functions and supervisory functions were mixed together by the Committee; so that if their proposals were carried out we should have a great deal of muddle in the functions of the B.B.C. At present, we have a system of control, from top to bottom, which is perfectly logical and workable. It is a system under which
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no man serves two masters. The Director-General is responsible for the whole of the executive side, and the Governors have a general control. The Beveridge Committee said they were proposing a federal solution. I do not think that is the case. In all federal constitutions, a clear distinction is drawn between the function of the federal bodies and the more local or State bodies. But in the Beveridge plan for regional organisation, which deals, of course, mainly with the Home programme, the regional controller would actually serve two masters. He would be under the Corporation for all matters except a part of the Home programme and as regards that part of the Home programme he would be entirely under the new national council. In that respect he would be definitely controlled by them. Surely that must lead to some confusion in control.
If one puts what, in a case like this, must be the decisive question—and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, will agree with me—"Who can sack him?" what is the answer? Suppose the national council consider the regional controller very good from a regional point of view, but the B.B.C. consider him bad for themselves, can the B.B.C. sack him? I do not know whose servant he is. More important than that, we shall have two kinds of Governors: we shall have six engaged, as they are now, in general supervision of the Corporation, and we shall have three Governors, equal to them in their powers of general supervision, who will also carry out actual executive functions in the way of working out and settling the Home programme, so that they will have axes to grind which the other Governors have not. That seems to me a bad defect in organisation. I join with the noble Lord, Lord Radcliffe, in hoping that the Government will not accept this alternative. I will say nothing about the third alternative of the Government, because enough has been said about that, and I concur with what has been said.
My own view is that in general we cannot improve on the present system. I think that the advisory councils in the regions should be encouraged to be more active, to meet more often and, particularly in Scotland and in Wales, to feel that they can initiate suggestions and give advice, as the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, suggested. Generally, I must

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say that I do not think a great deal of advisory councils, because as soon as a body is merely advisory it cannot do very much. Yet I suggest that these councils could be given more scope. I do not agree with the recommendations in the Beveridge Report about the public representation service. I think the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, seems too suspicious of everything connected with the B.B.C. The public representation service would be like having a detective agency watching all the time to see whether the right thing was being done. I do not think that is the way to get the best service.
As regards finance, it seems to me that a matter of principle is involved in the Government's proposal. I should have thought that all taxation should be through the recognised channel of the Budget. I do not know whether this particular impost is equivalent to Ship Money, but it is a peculiar method of taxation for the Government, without any Parliamentary authorisation, to extract part of what has been paid by licensees. There is a statement in the Report that the B.B.C. should spend £32,000,000 on capital projects in the next ten years. I believe it would be better that they should be allowed to reserve as much as they can of that sum out of revenue rather than have to rely on borrowing. As soon as people in the Corporation who want to spend money know that the B.B.C. can borrow £10,000,000, they will be after the B.B.C. authorities to see whether they cannot induce them to spend more on this and that. It is much better that the B.B.C. should be able to put money by out of their revenue, and build up a fund with which they can carry out at least part of this enormous programme.
6.6 p.m.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE: My Lords, I am sure you will all wish to agree with me in paying tribute to the fine speeches which we have had from two noble Lords who have just joined your Lordships' House. The noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, spoke with great feeling and understanding, and from the noble Lord, Lord Radcliffe, from the Cross Benches, we had an example of unhurried eloquence admirably put forward. I feel a little diffident about my own position to-day. I was a member
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of the Committee serving under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, who were charged with the responsibility of reviewing the whole situation. I have recorded my views in the Report, and therefore it would seem in a way to be wasting your Lordships' time to refer to those views in any great detail; but I was the one member of the Committee who signed the main Report without any reservation and without any addition. I even refused to succumb to the blandishments of the Chairman and my two lady colleagues to sign the addendum asking for a special time to be given for advertising.
I should not like this moment to pass without my paying a real tribute to the B.B.C., first, for the magnificent service they have built up for reliable information and for entertainment and education. I should also like to pay a tribute to them for what they have resisted, particularly in regard to advertising. We were asked by some of those who gave evidence why we should object to advertisement on the broadcasting service. We had advertising in the tubes and in our newspapers, and why not on the B.B.C.? There is just this difference: that I can assert my own will in looking or not looking at an advertisement in a newspaper or on a hoarding, but if I turn off the programme because of an advertisement I may miss something very important or entertaining which comes immediately afterwards. Having had an opportunity of listening to home broadcasting in America, I say emphatically that once we began with advertisements, we would not be able to stop it.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolton told us of a very impressive service to which he was privileged to listen on the other side of the Atlantic. I have no doubt that Sir William Haley could give us, through the medium of the B.B.C., just as impressive a service in this country as that the noble Lord listened to in America. But that is not the purpose of these short services in the morning, "Lift up your Hearts." They are meant just to give us something to think about; and if they end in a quiet moment, so much the better, rather than that we should try to fill up the interval between that and the weather forecast. Also, in my estimation, little improvement can be made at that time upon a careful reading of verses

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from the Bible. I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, was perhaps a little unkind in making that comparison to the detriment of the B.B.C.
But there are real dangers in monopoly and in "Londonisation." They lead to the position which has already been referred to this afternoon, of the B.B.C. becoming an oracle. The noble Lord who sits below me referred to this question, and made special reference to the news service. It is that service which, to my mind, exactly illustrates "Londonisation." It was, surely, an argument rather against" Londonisation" than for it when the noble Lord said that all regions were provided with five or ten minutes for their regional news, except London. London does not require it, because it has the whole of the national news service given through London spectacles. This looking at things always from the London point of view, to my mind, requires investigation and a new attitude. Why should we always begin our weather forecasts in London? Why not begin in the North, and work Southwards. Why should we think from the London point of view, and concentrate our news efforts within a radius of the home counties?
I should like to give your Lordships two illustrations of items of news in Scotland which were either left out completely from the national broadcast, or were referred to only incidentally. One was very recent. It was a wonderful parade of Scots Guards at Holyrood—something which we probably shall not see again in our lifetime—when the King himself was to have presented new Colours to the two battalions. That ceremony took place at Holyrood in the morning. There was one sentence about it in the news bulletin at six o'clock. With a message from the King himself, delivered to the country through the mouth of the Duke of Gloucester; with the presence of the two battalions of the Scots Guards; with the presentation of the new Colours and their dedication—surely, that was worthy of a proper reference in the national bulletin. Another similar omission of reference was in the case of the Royal Highland Show at Dundee in 1949. That Show was a record. The attendance at the Show on one particular day beat anything that the Royal Agricultural Society of England has ever put up, which shows the response there
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was in Scotland. Not a single word was given in the national bulletin about that Show, although Her Majesty the Queen came personally from London to attend it. I give those merely as examples of the kind of thing that shows that we ought to have a different system, and break through the London spectacles through which the news is always given.
Now let me pass to the question, referred to by several speakers, of how we can improve and bring fresh light into the broadcasting service through our suggestion of greater devolution. There are three proposals before us. One is that of the B.B.C., in which they say that the greatest possible devolution is given to the regional controller; that he has complete independence in regard to his programme, except for certain matters; and that he has at his hand the advisory committee. Then we have the Government's proposal in the White Paper that we should have an extra Governor on the B.B.C. responsible for the national regions, who shall be given the help of a national council in the particular country to which he belongs. That has been so much criticised that I do not think I need deal further with it, except to say this. Speaking from the point of view of one who has given a good deal of his life to local government, I feel that those who are elected to local government have "plenty on their plate" without further duties such as are suggested in the Government White Paper. We have suggested that, in addition to the extra Governor, to which the Government agree, the Governor who represents Scotland or Wales should be chairman of a small selected council; and that that selected council should have the power to initiate and propose.
Here I should like to refer to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Radcliffe, who criticised this council, by saying that I think he criticised it from not quite understanding the whole procedure, or that he forgot that there was a second part to this council—namely, that the Governor himself, as chairman of the council, was a member of the Board of Governors in London: he is the link which brings the two together. Therefore, I think that, although there may be difficulties in the working of the procedure, with good will on both sides there should be the possibility of making it work. I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that, of the three alternatives before us, the one which

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we propose in the Committee's Report is the one which I recommend. That particular procedure not only gives a greater opportunity to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if they wish to initiate programmes on their own, but it gives greater opportunity to the producers and artists, who will have the encouragement of alternative employment either with the national region or with the London programme.
I have before me some figures of recent research with regard to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Radcliffe as to whether or not the regions could substantiate and really wish to have their own programmes. In the Report we analyse the figures given in paragraph 228, Table 5, of listeners under the Home Service, the Light Programme and the Third Programme. In that analysis Scotland in 1948 worked out at 44 per cent. for the Home Service, 55 per cent. for the Light Programme and 1 per cent. for the Third Programme. But the figures given to me from Listener Research in June of this year arc 52 per cent. for the Home Service, 47 per cent. for the Light Programme and still 1 per cent. for the Third Programme, showing that Scotland, from the listeners' point of view, has gone up in its appreciation of its Home Service to over 50 per cent. That compares with England as a whole for 1948 at 36 per cent. for the Home Service, and 63 per cent. for the Light Programme, and in 1949 at 33 per cent. for the Home Service and 66 per cent. for the Light Programme. I think that is encouraging from the point of view of Scotland taking a personal interest in its own programme. For these reasons, I hope that the Government will give careful reconsideration to this question of devolution and the form it should take, and I sincerely hope that they will finally abandon the suggestion of councils recruited from local authorities.
6.23 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships are very grateful to the nettle Lord who was a member of the Beveridge Committee for his lucid and thoughtful speech upon these problems which he was considering for so long. I hope he will forgive my not following him, as I wish primarily to draw your Lordships' attention to some paragraphs in the Beveridge Report which escaped comment this afternoon, but
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which, in my view, are of profound importance. They are the paragraphs relating to the whole problem of what one might call discussion broadcasting—controversial, educational and all broadcasting of that kind. During the debate in another place this very important topic, in my view at any rate, was almost equally neglected. So far as I remember, there were only two speeches which touched upon it, and again they were speeches by members of the Beveridge Committee.
Before I refer to that aspect, I should like to say a word or two about the extraordinarily interesting, and, to a degree, provocative, speech of the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, the Chairman of this Committee. This is another of the great State documents which the country has come to expect from a Committee presided over by the noble Lord. Years ago, I had the advantage of serving under him, and I became accustomed to his astonishing capacity for comprehensive and searching surveys into social problems of all kinds. But, if he will allow me to say so, he rather tends, will his Reports, to adopt the attitude of a father to his favourite child. He fails to see that there can possibly be any blemishes on them, and rather expects the Government to adopt them 100 per cent. I should have thought that it was a very fair inference, from the whole tenor of the Beveridge Report in respect of this matter, to say that the Government were accepting it in substance. It is true that they go on to indicate a number of points of some importance in which they do not do so, but, broadly speaking, it is a very fair inference to say that the Government have substantially accepted the Beveridge Report.
I thought the noble Lord was a little too carping, if one can fairly use that word, in accusing the Government of being favourable to monopolies. As I read it, there is nothing in the White Paper which in any way says that the Government favour monopoly. The Beveridge Committee thought that there was nothing better than the monopoly which has in fact been established; and that, broadly speaking, is the Government's point of view, as I see it. The Beveridge Committee made certain suggestions as to how the monopoly might

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be tempered. The Government have made other suggestions, such as this proposal about the local authorities having control. They may not be good suggestions, and I am not sure that I like them any better than I like the suggestion of the noble Lord's own Committee on this particular problem—which is a very difficult one—but surely the fact that the Government did make these proposals for, so to speak, abating the monopoly, shows that they are just as much concerned as were the noble Lord and his Committee.
Perhaps I ought to confess an interest here, as I have more than once broadcast from Broadcasting House, and received a fee, as no doubt, others of your Lordships have done. My own experience does not in any way lead me to agree with the noble Lord's suggestion that the organisation is pontifical, that suggestions are not welcomed, or with the other points that he made. I have always found the B.B.C. ready to discuss any sort of suggestion which anybody in any sort of responsible position came along and put before them. So far as my own small experience of Broadcasting House goes, I have never found any of the officials with whom I have had to deal in any way pontifical or overbearing, or in any way fulfilling the adjective which the noble Lord used.
LORD BEVERIDGE: I did not use those words myself. I quoted them as remarks made to us by responsible outsiders. They are contained in the Report.
LORD CHORLEY: I appreciate that the noble Lord was quoting remarks made by other people. All I can say is that my own experience has not been to that effect, and I have among my colleagues and friends a large number of people who work a great deal for the B.B.C. I must say quite frankly that I have never heard these sort of expressions used, at any rate for a very long time. I think it may have been to some extent true during the years before the war, but recently I have heard no criticisms of that kind at all. I must say that the noble Lord seemed to answer himself, in a very fine peroration to his speech, when he pointed out the weaknesses of broadcasting in almost every other part of the world, and thanked Heaven that our system was so good. That seemed to me to show that our system is on the right
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lines, and that these differences between him and the White Paper which were called "fundamental" were, perhaps, not quite so fundamental after all.
I should like now to say something about controversial discussion, because it seems to me of the greatest importance. One of the aptest definitions of democracy which I have ever heard is that:
"Democracy is government by discussion."
I think the country relies enormously upon the B.B.C. to give leadership in discussion. It is possible to reach right conclusions on problems of politics, sociology, religion and the other fundamental problems with which a thoughtful citizen is faced, only on the basis of discussion: of hearing the facts put by people who have investigated the matter, and of hearing them discussed by people whose minds are trained in the business of discussion. I think it is a rather significant thing that the "Listener Research" which your Lordships will find referred to in Table 6, on page 58 of the Beveridge Report, seems to show definitely that the more educated the type of listener, the more interested he is in the discussion type of broadcast. In column C, for example, which refers to university-educated people, discussion moves right up to the fourth place, whereas, in column A—that is people who have had only elementary education—it is down to tenth place—and, even so, it is reasonably high in the long list. That seems to indicate the importance which people of education attach to the discussions which occur on the B.B.C. I am not saying that the B.B.C. has fallen down over this business at all, but I do think—and this is the view expressed in the Beveridge Report—that there is not enough of it and that it has been rather patchy.
There was a time when the noble Lord, Lord Reith, was apprehensive about allowing political discussion—I am not talking about Party political discussions but about discussions on fundamental problems. I think he was rather afraid that political discussions would be in the nature of gunpowder, and would give rise to so much criticism in Parliament and elsewhere that it was not safe to allow them. But there has been a good deal more of these discussions recently, and I think they are very much appreciated by

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the ordinary voter and the ordinary man in the street, in deciding how he is to vote, or perhaps, indeed, how he is to frame his philosophy of life. But there is still a great deal more which could be done by the B.B.C., for they have been rather timid in these matters. They have occasionally experimented; and then, for reasons which are not clear, since these experiments have been favourably received, they have tended to draw back. A year or two ago there were some very interesting controversial religious broadcasts which were well received and which were of the greatest value in enabling people to clear their minds on these fundamental problems. During recent months, they seem to have been dropped. The Beveridge Committee apparently received, very sympathetically, a good deal of evidence on this sort of point, and they give it quite clearly as their opinion that the B.B.C. ought to do more on these lines.
I pass to the question of religious broadcasts. The noble Lord who opened this discussion in a most interesting speech and a most valuable survey of the whole position, was rather apologetic in referring to it. I do not think there was any need for him to apologise, because this is one of the most important problems discussed in the Beveridge Report. I was not clear whether he wanted to have sponsored programmes, in order that the religious communities might pay for their time. I should have thought that that was a distinctly dangerous proposal. But perhaps that was not in the noble Lord's mind. Personally, I should prefer to see the broadcasting of religious services omitted from the B.B.C.'s programmes altogether. It seems to me that that is not the sort of thing on which the B.B.C. ought to be engaged. But I appreciate that that is a view which is not widely held, and that in fact the B.B.C. are committed to the broadcasting of religious services.
That being so, it seems to me that the Beveridge Committee make a very important point when they say that, at the present time, broadcasting of these services is restricted to some of the larger religious bodies. They point out that the Unitarians, a body of the greatest influence, who have had in their ranks some of the most eminent citizens of recent years, are not included. They do not point out, what is equally important, that Moslems and Buddhists, and
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members of other religious denominations which are not Christian but which include in their ranks more subjects of the British Crown than there are among the Christian denominations in our country, are also not included. I am not suggesting that they should have as much time as the other denominations, but I suggest that they are entitled to some sort of consideration. I suggest also that other Churches, which are not religious in the ordinary sense, such as the Ethical Church, should be included. They are religious in the most fundamental meaning of the term, and they are representative of a body of people who are, in that sense, just as religious as those who belong to the orthodox Churches. Yet they have no recognition at all by the B.B.C.
There was an intimation, a year or so ago, that the Ethical Church were to be given one or two periods in which their own service—which is a very beautiful one—would be broadcast. That idea, however, does not seem to have been taken any further. The Beveridge Committee are rather against the Ethical Church being given any time at all, just because they are not a Christian denomination. That seems to me to be altogether wrong. The Ethical Church represents a large number of people in this country, who are very sincere and who make just as valuable a contribution to the life of the community as is made by members of the other Churches. I suggest that they have their rights just as the members of other Churches have, and those rights ought to be accorded them. Are these matters such as can be left to the discretion of the Governors? I doubt it. I am suggesting that these people have not had a fair deal in the past, and I should like to see written into the new Charter some sentences establishing in general terms the rights of these minority communities to have their own particular religious service broadcast occasionally, just as do other denominations. I should also like to see written into the new Charter a term that there should be much greater emphasis upon controversial broadcasts, whether it be questions of politics or of religion, or any other of the fundamental issues which affect the lives of the citizens in the community.
6.40 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sure that, whatever else we

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may feel about this debate, we must all be grateful, in the first place, to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for having initiated it. As the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, made quite plain in his speech some time ago, the Government have deliberately invited this debate before making up their minds precisely what lines they will take. They have promised to consider all the observations made both in this House and in another place before making up their minds. Everybody will agree that that was a wise and proper course to take. I can assure your Lordships that all the speeches which have been made—and they have been unusually informative speeches—will be most carefully considered. This debate has been remarkable for the maiden speeches which we have heard to-day from the noble Lords, Lord Kenswood and Lord Radcliffe, both of whom, by reason of their experience, are very well qualified to talk to us on this subject. I should like to express to both of them our thanks for the trouble they have taken and our sincere hope that on many future occasions we shall hear them making equally well informed speeches.
I do not propose to follow the noble Lord who has just spoken in his interesting observations. I cannot think that it would be appropriate to provide in the Charter that the Ethical Church or the Buddhists should be given a share of time. I think that is precisely the sort of thing which should be left to the discretion of the Governors of the B.B.C., who should have complete and wide powers in that respect. Now I come to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. May I say to him one word about the incidental reference that he made to the 7½per cent. which he said the Post Office exacted for their services in collecting licence fees. As a matter of fact, the 7½per cent. is a purely arbitrary figure. It is relevant in that it is a figure which is taken from the total licence fees before you calculate on which either the 100 per cent. or the 85 per cent. should be based. In fact, there are considerable services involved by the Post Office. It is not merely as though the cost was the cost of issuing wireless licences. There are also the cost of what are known as the "combs" to detect evasion, and the increasing cost of investigating complaints of interference, alike with sound and television, caused
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by faulty apparatus. All this requires a considerable technical staff. I am not going to trouble your Lordships with the details. It is sufficient to say that this notional fund of 7½ per cent. does not pay the cost to the Post Office. The Post Office make no profit at all on it: in fact there is a deficit. The services which they render are more than is covered by this figure and involve a higher sum than is represented by 7½per cent. So I do not think there is any grievance in that respect.
On one other matter I want to speak with great definiteness, so far as I am concerned—and I think I speak for the whole Government. It is on this question of sponsoring. I am against it, root and branch, and so are the Government. We are against it in any form. We are against the Beveridge Committee's limited and qualified sponsoring, which is the thin end of the wedge, and which we regard as just as dangerous as any other form of sponsoring. I do not pretend that I, at any rate, have an open mind on this matter. I have made up my mind and I am definitely against the sponsored programme. I believe that it would damage the whole tone of broadcasting. You may call it, if you like, a sentimental objection, an æsthetic objection or, possibly, a spiritual objection; but I am thankful that there is no sponsoring in this country and I devoutly hope that we never shall have it. I think the whole standard of our broadcasting largely depends on our keeping it out. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Brand, in this case used a certain expression. Sitting on this Woolsack, I find it very difficult to hear what some noble Lords say. First of all, I have to sit or stand with my ears covered with this wig; secondly, I have no facilities for plugging in. I asked to-day if I might have them, but I was told that it is quite impossible, so that I cannot always hear very clearly what is said. I believe the noble Lord used the word "poisonous."
LORD WOOLTON: He did.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the noble Lord, Lord Brand, used the word "poisonous" I am quite content. It is not often that I hear the noble Lord, Lord Brand, using language of that kind, but I should like humbly to identify myself with his outlook on this matter. I did not have the good fortune to hear the noble Earl, Lord Elgin, but I am

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told that he, though not using such dramatic language, made it equally plain that he was opposed to this thing root and branch. That is a matter upon which we have made up our minds.
Then comes the question of the 85 per cent. as opposed to the 100 per cent. I am bound to tell your Lordships that, whenever the Chancellor of the Exchequer produces some proposals to raise a little money and they come before your Lordships' House, I cannot recall one single occasion upon which your Lordships have not been against the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It cannot be a pleasant job to be Chancellor of the Exchequer and, at the present time, he has to look about for money from every possible quarter from which he can find it. It is only within the last eighteen months, I think, that the B.B.C. have had the full 100 per cent., and the difference between the 85 per cent. and the 100 per cent. represents quite a substantial amount. I would remind your Lordships once more of the old proverb:
"Take care of the pence …"
If the amount involved is of the order of :1,500,000 or £1,750,000, that may be regarded as at least one penny, in the application of my proverb. Really, the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be careful about it. Equally, it is only for three years, and I do not think it is going to be a very great disaster, because although one can see, obviously, that there are vast schemes which must be undertaken in connection with broadcasting, I venture to say it is impossible that they can be undertaken to any considerable extent within the next three years, owing to the limitations inevitably imposed by our rearmament programme. There simply will not be either the materials or the men to make it possible to embark on schemes of that sort on a very large scale.
So much for those matters. I will say a word presently about the councils but I have noticed with interest that, as in another place, not a single proposal has been made with regard to them which has any point at all. I cannot recall anybody who addressed us in that respect. Having said that, I am going to deal with the various points raised hut, in so far as I have not dealt with them, they are all open to consideration. We shall have to face this problem anew in the light of
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what has been said, and, if I have mentioned particular matters, it is only to show that in regard to those matters our minds are, relatively speaking, closed. On all other matters to which I have not yet referred we have open minds and shall look at them.
Here I think it is right that we should pay tribute to the B.B.C. They have now inherited a great tradition, and are most worthily maintaining it. I believe the constitution of the B.B.C., for which I think the Crawford Committee was responsible, has been demonstrated to be a sound and living constitution. I have no doubt that it can be improved in some respects, but in its fundamentals I think that constitution is right and that it should be maintained. I should like to pay my tribute to the B.B.C.—and by that I include past and present Governors and the staff of the B.B.C. We ought to pay our tribute to the way in which they have carried on this immensely important task, and I believe in all quarters of the House we should say, "Well done. You have done really well and deserve well from your country." As I have said, they have inherited a great tradition, and Lord Reith was certainly one of those who helped to build it up. On broad lines, I think we should give to the Governors of the B.B.C. the largest possible measure of control and allow the least possible interference by the Government or anybody else. That is a principle which I am sure would receive acceptance throughout your Lordships' House.
Having said that, I now come to my noble friend, Lord Beveridge. In regard to his speech I frankly say that I do have some criticism and I shall proceed to make it. The White Paper was a very small document of a page or two compared with the massive Report which Lord Beveridge has put before us, and he really must not mind if, in the White Paper, we do not thoroughly canvass all the subjects. Had we done so we should have written a White Paper almost as long as his Report. Here let me say that had we written a White Paper as long as this Report, we could not have done it so well as did Lord Beveridge and his colleagues. They have certainly acquitted themselves with energy and gone to great trouble, and we are exceedingly indebted to them for the labour they have given to this matter. The noble Lord

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criticises this sentence in the White Paper:
"The Government agree with the majority of the Committee that the best interests of British broadcasting require the continuance of the Corporation on substantially the present basis."
He says that he regards that as an innocent misrepresentation. He attributes to it nothing more than that. But, having read the White Paper and knowing pretty well what is and what is not in it, and having read, I will not say the whole but certainly all the summaries of the Beveridge Report, and knowing fairly well what is in that, I maintain that that statement is absolutely and literally true. In this matter I join issue with the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and I will stop for a moment to consider with your Lordships the points which he asserted as indicating that the Government representation in the White Paper was an innocent misrepresentation. What he and his fellow Commissioners say in effect at page 48 of the Report is. "We accept the principle of monopoly, subject, of course, to the various qualifications which are included in the Report."
Let us come to the precise illustrations which he gave to indicate the way in which we "watered down" his Report, and let us see with some little care what substance there is in them, because we may be quite certain that Lord Beveridge has selected his best illustrations. Let us see how good these best illustrations are. I remember there were four of them. The first was in connection with the public representation service. We dealt with this matter in paragraph 13 of the White Paper, and it should be compared with paragraph 221 of the Beveridge Report, which is on page 55. Paragraph 221 says:
"The second improvement would lie in inviting and encouraging outside criticism by persons entitled to criticise."
Then it goes on lower down:
"It should become less and less possible for such words and phrases to be used about the B.B.C. as were used in talking to us by responsible outsiders … words like 'pontifical' or 'Olympian'; phrases like 'a closed shop'."
My Lords, if Lord Beveridge really imagines that you can possibly stop criticism in this country, or that you can stop people saying all sorts of things by way of criticism, he really is living in a
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fool's paradise. It is one of our prerogatives that we may criticise and say things like "Olympian." If I can go through my life and the only criticism I attract is such a harmless phrase as "Olympian," I shall indeed be a lucky man. Even if I never make any mistake at all, I shall not avoid criticism, and it would be very bad for me if I did avoid it.
What do we see in this respect in paragraph 43 of the White Paper? There it says:
"The Government propose to make it a duty of the Corporation in the new Charter to take such steps as may appear to them necessary to bring the work of the Corporation under constant and effective review from without the Corporation. They will leave it to the Governors to decide whether this is carried out by setting up a Public Representation Service or by other means. The Governors have assured the Government that they fully agree that the effective representation of public opinion is vital to the good working of the Corporation."
We have not turned down this idea of the public representation service. All we have said is that this is typically a matter for the Governors to decide. We have expressed our approval of the principle of outside criticism, and surely should not be blamed because we say that that is a matter for the Governors. So much for that illustration.
The second illustration dealt with the standing committee for overseas services. So hard up was my noble friend to try to find something in the White Paper which differed from his Report, that he had to go outside the White Paper and draw on some observation made by Mr. Gordon-Walker in his speech in another place. I ask your Lordships to allow me to quote a passage or two from that speech, because, as I knew all the time, that is obviously what the noble Lord was referring to. We are dealing here with the overseas services and the functions of the overseas services. These, of course, are financed by the Government because they are not for ordinary purposes at all. They are obviously something quite different, but the B.B.C. is allowed considerable latitude in putting up what they want. This is the passage from Mr. Gordon-Walker's speech to which the noble Lord has referred.
"The Government are content with the present arrangement for the overseas programmes—that the three overseas departments

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should determine the countries to which broadcasts shall he sent and that the B.B.C. should be independent in preparing the programmes and broadcasts; they should, however, continue to seek information from these departments about the countries to which broadcasts are directed and also about the policy of His Majesty's Government towards those countries. This system works very well indeed and we are content with it.
"Therefore, we do not endorse two of the proposals of the Beveridge Committee on these matters. Recommendation 42 says there should he a standing committee of the Corporation for the Overseas Service. This, of course, is an internal matter for the B.B.C., but none of the three Government Departments wants this change made. …"
Surely that is right. We do not, for a moment, turn down the idea that there should be a standing committee of the B.B.C. All we say is that that, plainly, is a matter for the B.B.C. to decide, and is not to be forced upon them by the Government. It is a matter which they must decide in the ordinary way of carrying on their business. I want your Lordships to realise that the complaint of the noble Lord is simply that, instead of imposing on the B.B.C. the duty to have a standing committee, we hive left it to them. We say: "It is an internal matter; you can have it if you like." That is one of the illustrations which the noble Lord gave. It was borrowed not from the White Paper, but from the speech of Mr. Gordon-Walker.
Let me take next the matter of the quinquennial review, which has been mentioned to-day. That is dealt with in the Beveridge Committee's Report, on page 179. They call it a quinquennial review, and suggest that it should take place. What we have done is this. In Paragraph 11 of our White Paper it is stated that:
"The Government accept the principle of periodical reviews which would be primarily concerned with the way in which the Corporation was discharging its responsibilities but, as the Committee recommend, could also if desired be used for the examination of specific questions of broadcasting policy on which advice was wanted. The Committee propose that reviews should take place every five years, but the Government feel that it would not be right to tie future Governments, either as to the frequency or the precise terms of reference of these reviews; these maters should, they think, be left open for decision in the circumstances of the day."
We accept the principle of the five-years review, but say that we are not going to tie future Governments precisely to our term of years; it may be less; it may be more. That is one of the matters in
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respect of which the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, says: "You are misrepresenting me and my committee when you say that you have substantially accepted the views of the majority. When you say that you are innocently misrepresenting us."
LORD BEVERIDGE: I hope the noble and learned Viscount will allow me to point out that the question of innocent misrepresentation relates to the point as to whether or not we, in our Report, are saying that the B.B.C. should continue on substantially the same basis as in the past. The noble and learned Viscount, if I may say so, is dealing with a different point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No; I am dealing with precisely the same point. The noble Lord who makes these allegations must understand it. He said that in stating, as the White Paper does, that we agree with the majority of the Committee that the B.B.C. should go on substantially as at present the Government have made an innocent misrepresentation. And the noble Lord says: "I will give you four illustrations which show that I am right in saying there has been innocent misrepresentation." One of the noble Lord's illustrations, with which I am now dealing, is this matter of the quinqennial review. What we have done is this. Whereas the Report recommended a quinqennial review, we have said that we accept tie principle of periodical reviews, but are not prepared to tie ourselves to precisely five years. Circumstances may arise, we say, in which it would be advisable to have a shorter period. On the other hand, circumstances may arise in which it should be a longer period. That is the subject matter of this complaint. I can deal, with allegations of this sort only by dealing with various specific illustrations which have been given of our so-called "innocent misrepresentation."
The noble Lord's fourth illustration dealt with the powers of the Governors. First, the Beveridge Committee recommended that the number of the Governors should be increased. That we have agreed to. Secondly, the Beveridge Committee recommended—I think I am right in saying this—that the Governors should be appointed for a period of four years, the appointments to be renewable, instead of, as under the present system,

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appointment for five years not renewable. The only qualification we have put in is this. Experience has led me to believe that it is useful to make it plain that no man can look upon renewal of his appointment as a matter of course; nor can any man legitimately have any sense of grievance if his appointment is not renewed. We all know, from our experience of boards and other bodies of that sort, the difficulty that arises if you constantly renew and then at last a time comes when you do not renew. The man concerned has a grievance, and he says, "Why was my appointment not renewed, when those of all the others were renewed?" In view of these considerations, the White Paper merely stresses, but does not over-stress, that no one should assume he is entitled to renewal as of right, for he is not. Subject to that, we have accepted that provision of appointment for four years, renewable.
The other point—on which I quite agree we differ from the Committee—is remuneration. Apart from the powers of the Governors, which is a specific question, it seems to me that we have substantially given what is required. Under our proposal the regional controller is to be appointed by the B.B.C. The regional controller to-day is appointed by the B.B.C. There is nothing in the Beveridge Report to say that the regional controller should not be appointed by the B.B.C. I apprehend—though the Committee do not refer to it—that they desire that the present system should go on. We desire that, too.
A further point is that the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, said we had not given him his decentralisation or devolution or diversity. I think that the only way we can give diversity is to leave it to the Governors of the B.B.C. to do what they can in that respect. I humbly agree with what the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said about the drab dullness and uniformity of some of the programmes which are supposed to be variety. But I do not think we shall do any good by talking about that. After all, it is probable that we are regarded simply as just a lot of old fogeys who do not like these things very much. I do not like either crooning or jazz, and I believe that I am not unique in that. There are others who do not like the things I like to listen to. How-
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ever, if the Government had not considered a measure a devolution, we should not be in all the trouble we are to-day. It is just because we want to bring about devolution that we are so friendless in your Lordships' House on this point. The whole trouble has been brought about by our keen desire to give independence to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There seems to be no doubt that they want it. They say they want it; whether for good reasons or bad I do not know. We are a democracy. We believe in the democratic system. What is wrong in our proposal? Who has a better one? I have waited to hear a better proposal, but no one has put forward a concrete suggestion. It is so easy to criticise, but not one noble Lord has put up a better proposal, on the assumption that we are going to have a larger measure of devolution.
We have heard a great deal about the frightful dangers of monopoly, about this hydra-headed monster, this tyrant. Are noble Lords really going to let the B.B.C. appoint these people? We have heard so much about the Governmental juggernaut which rides over everybody. Are noble Lords going to let the Government do it? The Government appoint the Directors of the B.B.C. Are they also going to appoint directors and controllers over all these other bodies? What is to become of all the safeguards against the evils of bureaucracy and the terrible dangers that arise from monopoly? If noble Lords really believe what they say about these dangers—and I do not dispute that there are dangers from monopoly—then see how our proposal was designed. Here we have a method of bringing the democratic principle to bear, by appointing people who are elected by the citizens of that part of the world in which these councils are to work. We do not suggest that the regional councils should be appointed exclusively from local authorities, but we suggest that a substantial element of people elected to local authorities should be included, because that is the democratic way. Of course, a body of selected people may be more efficient, but it is not so democratic as the way we propose.
It was our eagerness to carry out the principle of the Beveridge Report that has led us to make this proposal. This matter is certainly one which we will look

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at again, and will reconsider, in the light of the criticisms that have been made, and in regard to the fact for it is a fact—that neither to-day, in this House, nor in another place have we had any substantial number of voices supporting us in this matter. Our proposal is the only practical one that has been made, and it may be, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Radcliffe, said, that, failing some other more practical proposal, the best thing to do is to abandon the idea of greater devolution. Do not let us be criticised by the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, for not trying to carry out the principle of devolution, because it is in trying to carry out that very principle that we have got into trouble.
LORD BEVERIDGE: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble and learned Viscount can enlighten me. He said that we have not given any alternative to the Government's proposal. I was under the impression that the proposal made in the Report was an alternative.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I meant to say that we had not had any proposal put forward in the debate to-day, or in the debate in another place. I agree that there is the proposal of the Committee that there should be a small commission, which is worthy of our most careful consideration. But because we thought there are disadvantages in this plan, we put forward our proposal for a larger council with an elected basis. The Beveridge Committee suggestion was that the commission should be an appointed body, but it is supposed to be a safeguard against the dangers of bureaucracy and monopoly; and to give either the Government or the B.B.C., who are the potential wrongdoers and monopolists, the right to appoint these people does not seem to us to meet the criticism which the Beveridge Report has indicated. Therefore, we want to bring in some independent element, and in our search for the independent element we hit on this method of having part of these councils nominated by the local councils concerned. That suggestion has not been acceptable, and no other plan has been suggested which enables us to bring in this democratic element.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I was one of those who took strong exception to this proposal with regard to selection by local authorities. May I venture to suggest to the noble and learned Viscount
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that he is really joining together two lines of criticism which do not necessarily belong together? One is the complaint that the national sentiments of Scotland and Wales are not sufficiently considered in appointing the local organisations for these countries. The other is that a monopoly might become undemocratic and tyrannous. These two arguments need not necessarily be combined, and the noble and learned Viscount answers the first by invoking the second. For my own part, I think the present organisation is at fault from the point of view of satisfying national sentiment, and I think the criticism could be met by a system of selecting a council with much larger powers of advice and suggestion, removing from the Government plan only the elected element, which does not seem to me to apply. The noble and learned Viscount said that this was proposed for Scotland and Wales because they did not have local Parliaments. But where we have a Parliament for the whole country, it is also suggested that we should appoint advisory councils of this sort. It always has been left to the and I think might still be left to the B.B.C.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is great force in what the noble Viscount has said. Surely we have done right to assume that the representatives of local councils in Wales and Scotland would fairly represent the Welsh and Scottish points of view. I can imagine that it would be an unpleasant task to appoint five people to the commission. Who are they going to be? Everything will depend on finding the right five people, and I can imagine a good deal of lobbying and burning of hearts about who the five should be. I am glad that I have not that particular task, and if I were the Minister concerned I should look to see whether there was not some other method by which to make these appointments. I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, that the suggestion he has made merits our consideration. I conclude as I began, by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, and all your Lordships who have taken part in the debate. I assure you that we will carefully consider these matters. I am sorry if I had to "get across" Lord Beveridge, but if he accuses us of innocent misrepresentation, he must riot mind if I venture to suggest that the error lies with him, rather than with us.
7.20 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I think that all noble Lords who have listened to the speech of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will have recognised that if in the future, by any chance, we have to accuse him or any of his friends of misrepresentation, the one thing we must avoid is accusing them of innocence at the same time. I raised this issue because, as I said at the beginning, I thought it was a matter of considerable importance. We have had a debate which I feel has been of a very high quality, and I hope that it has been of some use. The Lord Chancellor says that the Government have an open mind on most of these matters, and that they will take into proper consideration the various suggestions made—except on two issues. The first is the issue of monopoly, on which, as one would expect, they are following their faith and are firm about it. Let me make it quite clear that I did not raise this as a Party issue. I expressly stated that I had not done so, and I was delighted to find that my noble friend Lord Halifax disagreed with my views, thereby demonstrating my point that this was not raised in any Party sense. I did not ask (I must repeat this)for the destruction of the B.B.C. Indeed, we have paid so many compliments to the B.B.C. to-day, quite deservedly, that I think they will be almost impossible to live with for the next month or two. But the very-high-frequency, and the ultra-high-frequency, wavelengths are new developments in broadcasting. As they come, I ask the Government to consider whether, with this new organ, we might not be well advised to encourage at any rate local broadcasting. Since I am rather a progressive sort of person, and belong to a progressive Party, I hope that the Government of the day will not be less progressive in considering that matter.
I do not propose at this late hour to occupy your Lordships' time by going into details of the various speeches that have been made, but I am sure my noble friend Lord Brand will permit me to make one observation. I was not suggesting sponsored programmes as a desirable end in themselves. I merely want to see some other instrument available besides the
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B.B.C. I thought that I had made that clear. If in order to get this local broadcasting to which I refer, it were necessary to have sponsoring, I should not raise any objection. We have heard two brilliant maiden speeches, and if the debate served no other purpose than that it would have been worth while. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Chorley for the observations he made in respect of my remarks about religious broadcasting. I belong to a minority—at least, technically—in that I am a Unitarian. So far as I have been able to discover, in conversation with members of the Church of England, a large number of them are also—but that is by the way. However, the B.B.C. do not recognise Unitarians. I hope that the noble Lord will give due consideration to that, and see whether it is not possible to ensure that religious broadcasts are on a wider basis. But that was not my complaint. I was complaining about the extraordinarily poor quality of the broadcasts. I hope that noble Lords will now listen to "Lift Up Your Hearts" in the morning, and see whether they are elevated as a result. I thank noble Lords who have taken part in the debate for the consideration which they have given to this matter, and I now beg leave of the House to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

KOREAN MEDAL
7.26 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I have permission to make two brief announcements? The first has reference to the Korean Medal. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has indicated in another place to-day that His Majesty has approved proposals for the institution of such a medal. Noble Lords may like to know that a White Paper on the subject can now be obtained from the Printed Paper Office.
The second announcement refers to the meeting of the House to-morrow. I ought, perhaps, to remind noble Lords that we are meeting at 2.30 p.m. to-morrow, and not at four o'clock.

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