Sitting of 11 April 1951

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (OVERSEAS SERVICES)
  Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will reconsider his decision to reduce his financial support of the British Broadcasting Corporation's overseas services, in view of the major part which the voice of Britain plays in expounding the foreign policy of Great Britain to foreign countries, especially those under the domination of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
  Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the United States and Soviet decision to increase their foreign broadcasting, he will reconsider the decision to cut down support for British broadcasting overseas.
  Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieuasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the need to present Britain's point of view adequately abroad, he will reconsider the decision to reduce the grant to the British Broadcasting Corporation for overseas services.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Herbert Morrison): It has been decided to recommend that increased provision should be made for the B.B.C.'s overseas services in order to prevent the loss by the Corporation of the channel-hours now in use for broadcasting to Europe. The amount required in addition to the figure of £4,650,000 which I mentioned in the House on 4th April is estimated at about £100,000, and it is proposed in due course to present the necessary Supplementary Estimate to the House.
  Mr. Stewart: Since it is apparent from that answer that the right hon. Gentleman intends to make substantial cuts in this vital national defence service is it not essential that the House should be informed without further delay exactly where, how, and when those cuts are to be effected?
  Mr. Morrison: The House must face the fact that we are to spend more on this service in the present financial year than we did in the last. We had a Budget yesterday in which everybody was agreed that we must be economical in public expenditure. I think the House can take it that, broadly speaking, the cuts will not be material, but it will be the case, however, that in certain parts of the world which we have chosen with very great care—they will not be cut out altogether—the number of hours will be somewhat reduced. Europe we are maintaining, and there will be no cut whatever so far as the Soviet Union and countries in Eastern Europe are concerned.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his original answer will give great satisfaction to all hon. Members of the House because of the receptiveness he has shown to the feeling exhibited on this matter?
  Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged. I always try to live happily with the House of Commons.
  Mr. Wyatt: While thanking my right hon. Friend for responding to representations from this side of the House, will he bear in mind that the only way in which the Chinese people, for example, could be told of his remarks about China the other day, was by the overseas services of the B.B.C., and that those services need strengthening, not merely having their cuts restored?
  Mr. Morrison: I appreciate that such friendly pressure as did come was from this side of the House. [Laughter.] Well, that is my impression. My hon. Friend need not be apprehensive on the point he has raised.
  Mr. Grimond: Does the right hon. Gentleman's statement mean that the wavelengths previously employed on these services will now be fully used, and that there is no danger of our losing time on any of these wavelengths?
  Mr. Morrison: There is a technical difference between wavelengths and channels, about which I hope nobody will cross-examine me. It is inevitable that some hours will be lost, but we are trying to keep the channels open so that as far as possible we lose touch with no part of the world.
  Brigadier Raynerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will say to which countries British Broadcasting Corporation's foreign broadcasts are now to be continued.
  Mr. H. Morrison: The B.B.C. will continue to broadcast to the same foreign countries as at present, although for less time in some cases.
  Brigadier Medlicottasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has yet made any progress in his discussions with the other Powers concerned which will result in more wavelengths being made available for the overseas and foreign broadcasts of the British Broadcasting Corporation.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I regret that the answer given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to a supplementary question on this subject on 21st February should have given the impression that discussions on this matter were taking place with other Powers. This is not so. I have been discussing with my colleagues ways and means of securing an improved B.B.C. service to Germany and am hopeful that it will be possible to make more satisfactory arrangements.

  BRITISH FORCES, SUEZ CANAL ZONE
  Mr. Alportasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the Egyptian Government have fulfilled their commitments under the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty to provide accommodation and public utilities for British Forces stationed in the Canal Zone; and what was the estimated amount owing to the United Kingdom at the end of 1950.
  Mr. H. Morrison: No accommodation or public utilities have been provided at the Egyptian Government's expense for His Majesty's Forces stationed in the Suez Canal zone. As regards the second part of this Question, the nature and extent
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  of the building carried out by His Majesty's Forces in Egypt during and since the Second World War have differed so greatly from that envisaged in the 1936 Treaty that I do not think it would serve any useful purpose to attempt at present to make the financial calculation suggested by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Alport: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is not, in fact, a debt owing to this country by the Egyptian Government over the past 15 years, and was any effort made to get some settlement of this debt during the recent financial negotiations between His Majesty's Government and the Egyptian Government?
  Mr. Morrison: It is a complicated debt, but I can assure the House that in discussions which may take place in the future on the numerous claims outstanding between the two Governments this fact will certainly be kept in mind.
  Mr. Vane: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that barrack and other accommodation will be paid for before it is occupied by the Egyptian Army?
  Mr. Morrison: One cannot be too categorical about that because of the facts of the Great War, when exceptional measures had to be taken.
  Mr. Duncan Sandys: When is the right hon. Gentleman proposing to make a detailed statement about the conversations now going on in regard to the evacuation of the Suez Canal zone?
  Mr. Speaker: There will be a Question about that at the end of Questions by the Leader of the Opposition.

  KOREA
  Captain Soamesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to give an account of conversations that have taken place between His Majesty's Government and other members of the United Nations on the political and military advisability of crossing the 38th Parallel; on what date these conversations commenced; and whether they are likely to be concluded before the 38th Parallel is crossed in strength.
  Mr. Nigel Fisherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if agreement has been reached upon the territorial objectives of the United Nations Forces in Korea and the extent of the United Nations advance beyond the 38th Parallel.
  Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will propose that instructions should be sent by the relevant United Nations Committee to their Supreme Commander in Korea as to the making of political statements; and what protests have been made by His Majesty's Government to the United States Government concerning the repeated pronouncements by General MacArthur which deal with political matters as well as military, in view of the fact that General MacArthur is in command of British troops.
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) if he will initiate discussions with the United States Government and other members of the United Nations with a view to establishing more satisfactory machinery for communication between the United Nations organisation and the Supreme Commander for the United Nations Forces in Tokyo;
  (2) if, in view of the urgent necessity of clarifying the situation in Korea and the intentions of the United Nations, he will endeavour to secure a fresh statement of the aims of the United Nations in the Korean conflict.
  Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in view of the altered military situation, he is now prepared to make a fresh statement clarifying the objectives of the United Nations in Korea.
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will initiate discussions with the United States Government and other members of the United Nations with a view to securing more effective control of the Supreme Commander of the United Nations Forces in Tokyo.
  Mr. Michael Footasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) when a new statement on war aims in Korea may be expected;
  (2) whether the British Government have joined with other powers concerned in the fighting in Korea who have drawn
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  up a draft statement of war aims in Korea.
  Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the official channels through which His Majesty's Government can ensure that their views are taken into account by General MacArthur in the conduct of the campaign in Korea.
  Mr. H. Morrison: In view of the large number of Questions regarding Korea, I will, with permission, make a statement in relation to these Questions at the end of Questions.

  GERMANY

    Industrial Legislation
    Mr. Albuasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what instructions he has given to His Majesty's High Commissioner in Germany on the attitude he should take to the law at present being debated in the Federal Parliament on the participation of workers in the management of industry.
    Mr. H. Morrison: The law has not yet been passed by both Houses of the German Federal Parliament. It received its second reading in the Lower House on 4th April. The law in its present draft form appears to be a domestic German matter which does not call for any intervention by the United Kingdom High Commissioner. In any event it would be premature to give any instructions to the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Germany as to the final attitude he should take towards the law before it has been passed.
    Mr. Albu: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the High Commissioner uses his influence with the representatives of the other Occupying Powers to ensure that there is no frustration of this rather welcome development of democratic feeling among the German people?
    Mr. Morrison: It is a very interesting development and I will certainly keep my hon. Friend's point in mind.
    Mr. John Hynd: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that previously a veto has been exercised against such a law by certain of the other Occupying Powers in the West? Will he bear this in mind when the law is passed?
    Mr. Morrison: I will look it up.

    Lord Russell of Liverpool (Incident)
    Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the incident in which Lord Russell was involved in Western Ger many on 31st March.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what inquiries he has made into the incident at Vlotto in North Rhine-Westphalia on 31st March in which Lord Russell of Liverpool, Deputy Judge Advocate General in Germany, was involved.
    Mr. H. Morrison: I am consulting the Lord Chancellor about this incident and would prefer to make no statement on the subject for the moment.
    Mr. Fisher: While I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's point of view and do not wish in any way to apportion blame in this matter, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to do his best in future to ensure that possible causes of friction between our representatives and the German people are avoided?
    Mr. Morrison: Certainly, as far as I am concerned I think it is most undesirable that there should be needless friction between officers of His Majesty's Government and the German people.

  ATLANTIC DEFENCE (GERMANY AND SPAIN)
  Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will reconsider Government policy regarding the inclusion of Spain and Western Germany in the defence arrangements of the Atlantic Pact countries in the light of the recent decision of the United States Senate on this subject.
  Mr. H. Morrison: His Majesty's Government, together with the other North Atlantic Treaty Governments, have already agreed to the principle of a German contribution to Western defence. The participation of Spain in such arrangements is a matter for consideration by North Atlantic Treaty Governments in common. As regards the policy of His Majesty's Government, I have nothing to add to the reply already given to the hon. Member on 29th January.
  Mr. Fisher: While I do not wish in any way to be political or provocative about the question of Spain, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there should be the closest possible consultation between us and the United States of America so as to ensure the minimum divergence between us on these important matters of policy?
  Mr. Morrison: That depends upon which way the matter of policy is going.
  Captain Ryder: When these matters are discussed, would the right hon. Gentleman make quite sure that our position with regard to Gibraltar is fully understood?
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. I understand that, too.

  FOREIGN MINISTERS' DEPUTIES (MEETING)
  Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of the discussions between the deputies of the Foreign Ministers at the Palais Rose in Paris.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis), on 4th April.

  GENERAL MORGAN (STATEMENTS)
  Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what directives were given to General Sir William Morgan before he left for the United States of America.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 5th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Dr. Jeger).
  Mr. Rankin: While no criticism is offered by me, at any rate, about the way in which this officer executed the directive which was given to him, ought such high officials not to be requested, when they go outside their commission, to speak with greater discretion on subjects such as that with which he dealt?
  Mr. Morrison: I think everybody should be careful when travelling about the world but I ought to say, in fairness to the accuracy of the record, that Sir William Morgan is not a serving officer. He is no longer in that position and, therefore, the situation is not quite as my hon. Friend might have thought it was.

  SYRIA-ISRAEL FRONTIER (INCIDENT)
  Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Government have considered the complaint of Egypt as to the bombing of Syrian Army posts by Israeli aircraft; and, as a signatory to the Tripartite Declaration of May, 1950, relating to security in the Middle East, what was the reply of His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. H. Morrison: On 4th April, seven Israel police were killed in a clash with Syrian elements in the area of El Hamma, which lies south-east of Lake Galilee, and in one of the zones demilitarised under the Israel-Syrian Armistice Agreement. As a retaliatory measure Israel aircraft bombed positions on Syrian territory on 5th April. On receipt of this information His Majesty's Ministers at Tel Aviv and Damascus were instructed to press the Israel and Syrian Governments respectively to cease all offensive operations immediately, and to withdraw their troops, if any, from the demilitarised zone.
  On 6th April, the Under-Secretary of the Egyptian Ministry for Foreign Affairs made an oral communication to His Majesty's Embassy at Cairo to the effect that the Egyptian Government viewed the Israel action with concern and wished to draw the attention of His Majesty's Government, as one of the signatories of the Tripartite Declaration, to the seriousness of the situation. His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Cairo was instructed to inform the Egyptian Government in reply that His Majesty's Government shared their concern and to notify them of the instructions sent to His Majesty's Ministers at Tel Aviv and Damascus.
  Mr. Janner: In view of the cold-blooded murder of these seven policemen and also of the fact that others were taken prisoner, would my right hon. Friend see that the United Nations acts to prevent Syria from taking further action of this
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  description? Will he also ask Egypt, when she interferes in these matters, to interfere on the right side and not on the wrong side?
  Mr. Morrison: If I may say so, in these matters concerning Israel and the Arab States, with whom His Majesty's Government are anxious to live in friendship—all of them—I would beg all hon. Members to try not to be too biased in their statements.
  Mr. Pickthorn: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, will he think it right to query the use of question-begging words like "murder" before all the facts involved in this very tragic and regrettable incident have become plain?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not wish to respond to the hon. Gentleman's desire to get me into trouble with my hon. Friend. I gather this matter is to be the subject of international investigation on the initiative of the parties concerned and I think that at this stage the more we can be impartial the better.
  Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any military activity is going on in the area at the moment?
  Mr. Morrison: I cannot be quite sure, but I think not.

  PERSIA (ANGLO-IRANIAN OIL COMPANY)
  Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House of the reply received from the Persian Government to the British Government's Note of 14th March, concerning the Persian proposals to nationalise the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company's interests in that country.
  Mr. H. Morrison: The Persian Government's reply to our Note to them of 14th March was handed to His Majesty's Ambassador on 8th April, and a copy is being made available in the Library today.
  Mr. M. Philips Price: Is the whole question of the nationalisation of the oil industry in Persia now being considered at a conference between ourselves and the United States?
  Mr. Morrison: We are in discussion with the United States about the general oil problem in the Middle East. No doubt this will be one of the features of the discussion.

  CHINA (DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS)
  Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on how many occasions His Majesty's representative in Peking has been received by the Chinese Government; and what was the effect of the last interview.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Fourteen. The last occasion was on the 8th March when Mr. L. H. Lamb, who has succeeded Sir John Hutchison as His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires, had an initial interview with the Chinese Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs. The question of our relations with China was reviewed in general terms.
  Mr. Blackburn: In view of the barbaric attitude of the present Chinese Government towards its own people, who are being publicly executed in hundreds, will the right hon. Gentleman give a categorical assurance that His Majesty's Government will not undertake any conversations on the subject of Formosa behind the backs of the United States and of the United Nations?
  Mr. Morrison: If I may say so, I think that is a little unrealistic and I had better not give such an undertaking.
  Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Is the Foreign Secretary satisfied that our representative in Peking is obtaining proper access to any British prisoners who may be in Chinese hands?
  Mr. Morrison: That question had better be put down; I would not like to answer it at the moment.
  Mr. Blackburn: Are His Majesty's Government considering appeasement on the subject of Formosa? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Surely we are entitled to an answer.
  Mr. Morrison: With great respect, the hon. Member is not entitled to information on matters about which he has not put Questions on the Order Paper.
  Air Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what was the outcome of the last discussion which took place between the Minister and the British representative?
  Mr. Morrison: No. Sir.
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Air Commodore Harvey: On a point of order. With great respect, I put a question to the Foreign Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS: "He answered."]—I am addressing Mr. Speaker—I put a question to the Foreign Secretary which was quite relevant to the original Question. May I have a reply please?
  Mr. Morrison: It is quite within my discretion whether I reply or not. As a matter of fact I did reply.
  Air Commodore Harvey: What was the reply?

  NAIROBI WEST AIRPORT (FACILITIES)
  Mr. W. J. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of the unsatisfactory arrangements for handling passengers at Nairobi West Airport; and if he contemplates any improvements in the near future.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. James Griffiths): As the result of very considerable expansion of traffic at this airport, which is used by local services only, passenger handling facilities are now inadequate. The question of aerodrome facilities generally for Nairobi is at present under consideration and until a final decision is reached the Kenya Government consider that capital expenditure on improvements at Nairobi West would not be justified.
  Mr. Taylor: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no water-borne sanitation at this aerodrome and that the sanitary arrangements generally are of the most primitive kind? Will he make representations to the Kenya Government to effect an improvement at the earliest date, even if it is only a temporary improvement?
  Mr. Griffiths: Yes; as I have said, the aerodrome facilities generally are under consideration by the Kenya Government.

  JAMAICA (MAIL COLLECTION)
  Sir Ralph Glynasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will cause immediate inquiry to be made as to the present methods of collecting mail in Jamaica for transfer to British Overseas Airways Corporation services to the United Kingdom, in order to improve the dates of collection and delivery and enable the service from Jamaica to the United Kingdom to be as speedy as that in the reverse direction.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: No, Sir. The Acting Governor of Jamaica is satisfied that the system of collecting mails in Jamaica for onward transmission by the B.O.A.C. services is satisfactory. If the hon. Member has in mind any specific case of delay perhaps he will let me have the particulars for investigation.
  Sir R. Glyn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it takes five days longer for a letter to be collected and delivered in the United Kingdom than it takes for a letter to be sent from the United Kingdom and delivered in Jamaica?
  Mr. Griffiths: I was not aware of that, but I will make investigations.

  HONG KONG (BROADCASTING SERVICE)
  Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made in increasing the broadcasting range and facilities in Hong Kong; and if he is satisfied that adequate efforts have been made to overcome the difficulties of transmission in this Colony, in view of its importance as a means of getting our propaganda to the people of China.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: The effective range of the Hong Kong broadcasting service is the area of the Colony itself. I am assured that its transmitting facilities are adequate for the purposes of the local service. Broadcasts from this country to China and other countries of the Far East are relayed, as the hon. Member will be aware, through Malaya, not through Hong Kong.
  Mr. Fletcher: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is most important to have as an auxiliary to the
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  Malayan service—which is not coming into full use for a number of months—the Hong Kong broadcasting station, which could be easily extended at a small cost for use in broadcasting to China? May I apologise to the hon. Member opposite who looks on this as his own preserve, for raising the matter?
  Mr. Griffiths: I could not agree that it could be done at small cost. The new transmitter in Malaya will be in use very shortly and we think it will be adequate.
  Mr. Gammans: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his answer is quite unrealistic and that the station in Singapore to which he refers is a short-wave station? If Southern China is to be affected by our broadcasts that can only be done from Hong Kong by medium wave?
  Mr. Griffiths: No, I do not accept that view.

  NIGERIA

    Cocoa Trees (Disease)
    Mr. W. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now in a position to give any further information on the efforts to combat swollen shoot disease in cocoa trees in Nigeria; and what proportion of the £70,000,000 profit made by the Government in selling this commodity has been spent on counteracting the disease.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate a statement on the first part of the Question in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    With regard to the second part of the Question the proceeds of the marketing of Nigerian cocoa accrue, not to the Government of Nigeria, but to the Nigerian Cocoa Marketing Board, which had accumulated reserves of some £18½ million at the 30th September, 1949. More recent figures are not yet available. A sum of over £1 million has been allocated by the Board to finance schemes for disease control and the rehabilitation of the cocoa areas during the period 1950 to 1955, and before this the Board had spent about £300,000 on similar schemes.
    Mr. Fletcher: In view of the very optimistic statements made by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor about cutting

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    out swollen shoot disease and the lack of performance since then, and also the fact that there is now a month's suspension of cutting out in one of the Colonies, does he realise the great seriousness of this disease, which is endangering the whole future of cocoa production in West Africa and needs firmer action and the better use of the money set aside for it than at present?
    Mr. Griffiths: I am fully aware of the seriousness of the disease. Unfortunately, all investigation and research so far have not discovered any remedy for dealing with it except that of cutting out. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a full report of steps that have been and are being taken.
    Mr. Peter Smithers: Is it not a fact that the future prosperity of the people of Nigeria and the Gold Coast depends on the success of the cutting out programme more than on anything else?
    Mr. Griffiths: It does depend on the success of our efforts in getting rid of this disease.
    Mr. Keeling: Are the cocoa farmers in Nigeria themselves now co-operating wholeheartedly in the policy of cutting out?
    Mr. Griffiths: I think I can say that there is very much less resistance and better understanding of our policy now than hitherto.
    Following is the statement:
    The policy adopted since last May to control the swollen shoot disease of cocoa in Nigeria has been to withdraw the survey teams and cutting out gangs from an area roughly within 30 miles radius of Ibadan where the disease is endemic, and to concentrate on preventing the spread of the disease to areas which are either clear or only lightly infected.
    Field survey parties have been engaged in making an intensive survey of the perimeter of the endemic area, which has, with the exception of a comparatively short line in the south, now been well determined. The work is organised so that every farm is visited every six months, and the ground has now been covered twice under this new system. Elsewhere, the survey continues in the normal manner and no new outbreaks of swollen shoot disease have been discovered. Opposition to the work of both the survey teams and the cutting-out gangs has been reduced to negligible proportions and, consequently, the work is now able to proceed systematically with comparatively little interruption.
    In addition to their routine duties, the survey parties everywhere are constantly
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    demonstrating to farmers improved methods of farm maintenance, means of improving the quality and cleanliness of the cocoa they produce, and methods of controlling black pod disease. In addition to this work, a special team of propagandists has been employed to visit villages reported to be producing poor quality cocoa, and excellent results have been obtained from this organisation.
    The rehabilitation of the swollen shoot area will call for a carefully co-ordinated plan of orderly development based on soil types which will be determined by the Cocoa Soil Survey which is now being organised. This rehabilitation has produced special problems which are new both to the Agricultural Department and to the farmer, and as a first step towards the implementation of any rehabilitation policy, the Department has acquired the use of cut-out farms where replanting experiments are in progress. Elsewhere in the area the economy can only be maintained by the use of alternative crops, and nurseries have been established at suitable centres to supply improved planting material of citrus and oil palms. In addition, a pioneer oil mill has been established in the area.
    In order to maintain a supply of improved cocoa planting material for planting, both in the new areas and for the regeneration of old farms, a special cocoa propagation centre has been established.

    Livestock Commission (Report)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has considered the recommendations made by the Nigerian Livestock Mission; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The report of the Mission is at present under detailed examination by the Nigerian Government, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement on it.
    Mr. Hurd: Will there be consultation with the people of Nigeria, as well as the Government of Nigeria, so as to ensure that the policy decided upon carries popular support?
    Mr. Griffiths: It is under examination by the Nigerian Government and what steps they take and whom they consult is a matter for them. I am certain that they will take all steps which they think are necessary.

    Railway (Labour Relations)
    Mr. Ronald Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the inquiries which were made relating to the preparation of the Pallant Report on the Operating Problems of the Nigerian Railway, Sessional Paper No. 21, 1950, included consultations with the

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    railway trade unions; and whether labour relations on the Nigerian railway have improved since the publication of the report.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Mr. Pallant had discussions with the leaders of the railway trade unions. There has been some improvement in the relationship between the management and unions since the publication of the Report.
    Mr. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that considerable publication is being given in Nigeria to the fact that in the preliminary stages of these investigations there were no consultations with the leaders of the trade unions? Will he give an assurance that there were full inquiries, and that the leaders were fully consulted?
    Mr. Griffiths: My information is that Mr. Pallant had discussions with the representatives of the trade unions, and indeed it would be my desire that there should be the fullest discussions between them.

  SINGAPORE (ARRESTS)
  Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many of the men arrested in Singapore in January last are still detained; and when they are to be brought up for trial.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Fifteen of the 39 persons arrested in January are still detained. The evidence against these is still under examination, and it is not therefore possible to confirm that charges will be preferred.
  Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that the arrest of many of these men, who are held in high public esteem, is causing a great deal of concern, both to Malays in this country, and to the people in Singapore and the Colonies? As wide publicity was given to the allegations against these men at the time of their arrest, will an opportunity be given them to defend themselves in open court?
  Mr. Griffiths: As I have said, the evidence is now being examined. I am very anxious that the examination of this evidence shall be completed as soon as possible and the matter brought to a head.
  Mr. Awbery: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the continued detention of these men in prison is causing a great deal of concern and damaging healthy democratic movements in Malaya?
  Mr. Griffiths: I quite understand the concern, but I am sure my hon. Friend realises that in this area it is of the utmost importance to take measures of this kind.

  GAMBIA (POULTRY SCHEME)
  Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if a decision has now been reached on the future of the Colonial Development Corporation's poultry farming project in the Gambia.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: No, Sir. The Corporation's review of the project is not yet sufficiently advanced for them to be able to inform me of their proposals.
  Mr. Hurd: Can the Minister say when he hopes to make a statement, as there is great public anxiety about this matter?
  Mr. Griffiths: No, I shall make a statement as soon as I receive the proposals from the Corporation.

  TANGANYIKA (WATTLE PLANTATION)
  Mr. Vaneasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many acres of wattle were sown in the Colonial Development Corporation's plantation in the Njombe district of Tanganyika in 1950; and how many he expects to be sown in 1951.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I would invite the hon. Member to refer this inquiry to the Corporation.

  BERMUDA (RACIAL DISCRIMINATION)
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further information he has now received from Bermuda on the question of racial discrimination; and what is the nature of his reply to Mrs. Evelyn MacLaurin who forwarded him details of this discrimination.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I cannot reply to Mrs. MacLaurin until I have the Governor's comments on her letter, of which I am sending him a copy. When a reply is sent I will at the same time communicate with my hon. Friend.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    Government Pensions
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why a circular was issued by his Department to Colonial Governments drawing attention to the discriminatory nature of pension increases made in United Kingdom Government pensions; and whether he will now instruct Colonial Governments to disregard this circular.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I assume that this refers to circular despatches in which Colonial Governments were, some years ago, informed of the pension increase scheme sanctioned by Parliament for home service pensioners and were advised to base their own schemes on similar principles. I am not prepared to advise Colonial Governments to disregard the circulars in question.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Would the Secretary of State at least be prepared to advise them that he has no objection if they are not discrimatory?
    Mr. Griffiths: Some of the governments have adopted schemes which vary from the one which they were advised to regard as a model. Whether they vary them is a matter for them to decide.
    Mr. Thomas Reid: Is it not a fact that after the First World War, when the cost of living rose very greatly, all the Colonies, without exception, freely granted increases of pension to those who had retired without any discrimination as to grades?
    Mr. Griffiths: I cannot, without notice, say what happened at the end of the First World War, but I said that we were advising colonial governments of what we were doing at home.

    Form P.7W
    Mr. John Arbuthnotasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his Department's form P.7W has now been completely withdrawn; and
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    whether he will undertake that no further copies will be issued, considering that it is now six months since his attention was first drawn to the questionable terms of the inquiries made in this document.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Yes. Supplies of a new form have now been printed and are in use.

    Fire Services
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many fire brigades exist in Nigeria; and, in view of serious fires in the Colonies, whether the provision of adequate fire services has received consideration recently in Nigeria and other colonial areas.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I am confident that colonial governments constantly review their need in this matter but it is not one on which they are expected to keep me informed. I am asking the Governor of Nigeria for particulars in respect of that Territory and will write to my hon. Friend when I have the reply.

  STUDENTS' HOSTELS, LEEDS AND MANCHESTER (CLOSING)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of the hardship and disappointment caused to colonial students by the closing of British Council hostels at Leeds and Manchester; and, in view of the need of securing adequate accommodation for these students, what action he proposes to take to see the need is met.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I am aware that the British Council's hostels at Manchester and Leeds are to be closed. I am assured by the British Council that they are able to make alternative arrangements for the small number of colonial students who will thus be displaced.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the closing of these two hostels has caused a considerable amount of disquiet among colonial students in this country? The latest information until recently was that the hostel for girls was about to be closed; that has now been revoked. Could there not be some stability in this matter? Has my right hon. Friend been in contact with the British Council about it?
  Mr. Griffiths: Yes. In these hostels only about 14 out of a total of 33 students have been displaced. I am told by the British Council that they are satisfied that alternative arrangements can be made for these colonial students.
  Mr. J. Hynd: Can my right hon. Friend say why these hostels have been closed? Is it in the interests of economy? If so, is it expected that more hostels, which are so important to these colonial students, will be closed?
  Mr. Griffiths: When I am not satisfied that the British Council can make alternative accommodation available, I will take action, but I am assured that they can provide alternative accommodation.
  Mr. Sorensen: Has my right hon. Friend been in recent contact with the British Council on this matter? If not would he get in touch with them?
  Mr. Griffiths: I have been in contact with the Council since my hon. Friend put down his Question. If he has any further information, I shall be glad to receive it. I am very anxious to see that the arrangements made for these colonial students are the best possible.

  ANTIGUA

    Civil Servants (Cost-of-Living Bonus)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when a cost-of-living bonus will be paid to civil servants in Antigua; and whether he is aware that it is now over two years since the civil servants stated their need of financial relief and well over six months since a commission of inquiry into the cost of living was appointed.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: An increase in the cost-of-living bonus was announced at the end of last month and is to have effect from 1st January, 1950. The Governor informs me that it is hoped to complete the necessary adjustments and to begin payment during the next few weeks.

    Civil Service Salaries (Commission)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies who are the members of the Salaries and Adjustment Committee for the Civil Service of Antigua.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The investigation into the organisation and salaries of the Civil Service in the Leeward Islands is being undertaken by Mr. Hammond, Adviser (Special Duties) to the Comptroller for Development and Welfare in the West Indies. He will, however, receive specialist advice from other members of the Comptroller's staff.
    Mr. Hynd: Is my right hon. Friend certain that his information is complete? Is it not a fact that this Commission consists of two persons, Mr. Hammond and his wife? What reason is there for this peculiar set-up of a Commission consisting of a man and his wife?
    Mr. Griffiths: The Commission appointed consists of just Mr. Hammond himself.
    Mr. Osborne: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the salaries and the relief in the form of a cost-of-living bonus mentioned in the previous Question will be calculated on the same cost-of-living index as is used in this country?
    Mr. Hynd: Has the Secretary of State seen a newspaper from Antigua, the "Workers' Voice," of 31st January, which says:
    "The appointment of Mr. and Mrs. Hammond as Salaries and Organisation Commission has filled most civil servants with a certain degree of bewilderment."?
    Mr. Griffiths: No. Mrs. Hammond is not a member of the Commission. She is doing secretarial duties, but was not appointed a member of the Commission.

    Trades and Labour Union (Representation)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction of the Antigua Trades and Labour Union at the appointment of only one representative of the people on the Executive Council, one representative on the Land and Settlement Board and one on the Electric Light Board; and whether he will increase this representation.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The Union have made representations about the composition of the Executive Council but I see no need for change in advance of the wider constitutional reform which, as I told the House on 12th December last, has been accepted and is now being worked out in

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    detail. Any representations which the Union may make to the Governor or, through him, to me would, of course, be carefully considered subject to the overriding consideration, which they would, I am sure, accept, that the basis of appointment to these Boards must be that of securing the services of the persons best fitted to promote their efficient operation. I would add that two out of the five members of the present Electricity Board are officers of the Union.
    Mr. Hynd: Is my right hon. Friend conscious of the contrast between his New Year message on this subject and conditions on the spot? Does he really regard this representation as satisfactory?
    Mr. Griffiths: I presume that my hon. Friend is referring to the composition of the Executive Council. I have already made a statement about the constitutional reforms, and those changes are now being worked out.

  FIJI (UNITED STATES STUDENTS)
  Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why 66 students of medicine and dentistry have been transferred from Guam to the Central Medical School at Suva, Fiji; what are the nationalities of the students; and what is the total number of places available at the Central Medical School.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: These arrangements were made to overcome difficulties resulting from the transfer of responsibility for Guam from the U.S. Navy Department to the Department of the Interior. The students accepted came from United States Trust Territories in the Pacific. Special arrangements were made to accommodate these students in addition to the normal number of students at the school. In 1949, the latest year for which information is available, there were 44 students and an additional 50 students were expected in 1950.
  Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a strong local belief that dental and medical education for the people there are being cut down to accommodate the United States? Is there any truth in that belief?
  Mr. Griffiths: No, I have had no representations of that kind, and there is certainly no truth in such a belief.

  GRENADA, SITUATION (AGREEMENT)
  Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken or is contemplated in respect of compensation for damage caused to property during the recent disturbances in Grenada.
  Mr. Lennox-Boydasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement about the present situation in Grenada.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I am glad to report that as a result of the negotiations between the Agricultural Employers' Society and the Grenada Mental and Manual Workers' Union, under independent chairmanship, settlement has been reached between the parties concerned and was embodied in a formal agreement signed on 9th April. Similar agreement between employers and the Trade Union Council may be signed this week. The favourable outcome of these negotiations will, I trust, lay the basis for the settlement of any future differences by methods of negotiation and conciliation. The question whether there are grounds for any ex gratia payments for rehabilitation in cases of special hardship is one for the Grenada Government.
  Mr. Braine: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that much of the damage caused was aggravated by the failure of the police to deal with the situation, a fact borne out by the dismissal of the police chief; and is there not a clear moral obligation on the authorities to give speedy and effective compensation?
  Mr. Griffiths: There is no legal responsibility, that is clear. As I have said, the question of whether there should be an ex gratia payment is one for the local government to consider and decide.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As the preservation of law and order is and will remain of the utmost importance, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the police forces in the Island are adequate? Will he look again at the question of the re-formation

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  of the West Indian Regiment to play its part there and elsewhere in the preservation of law and order?
  Mr. Griffiths: I am giving consideration to that and to every other aspect of the problem in consultation with the Governor.
  Mr. Harrison: Will my right hon. Friend use his influence to see that where compensation payments are made, or contemplated, hardship should not arise to those persons receiving payment?
  Mr. Griffiths: I have said that that is a matter for the local Government to decide.
  Mr. P. Smithers: Can the Secretary of State say how many prosecutions have taken place in connection with the disorders?
  Mr. Griffiths: Not without notice.
  Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Will the terms of the agreement when settled be published, and, if so, will the right hon. Gentleman cause a copy to be laid in the Library?
  Mr. Griffiths: Yes, Sir. The agreement has not yet reached me, but I will consider putting a copy in the Library when I have received it.

  FOREIGN OFFICE (NAME)
  Mr. Cocksasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the fact that the central object of British foreign policy is to establish and maintain international peace, he will consider, in this year of the Festival of Britain, taking steps to re-name the Foreign Office the Peace Office and to change the designation of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to that of Secretary of State for Peace.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. The name of the Foreign Office is well established and understood and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister sees no reason to make a change. The Department's present name is not inconsistent with its functions as the Department of peace.
  Mr. Cocks: Bearing in mind that my right hon. Friend, in his capacity as
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  Foreign Secretary has already stated that his Department is the Department of peace, does not he think that such a striking change of nomenclature at the present time might have a heartening effect on the peoples of the Western world, who are now so depressed at the many signs of approaching war?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not think so, Sir. As a matter of fact, I did have the point in mind when I added the last paragraph to the answer to the Question.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to consider relinquishing his own title of "Lord Festival" and taking that of "Lord Peace"?
  Mr. Morrison: I should very much like to enjoy both of them.
  Professor Savory: Would not the inevitable impression conveyed to Soviet Russia by such a change be that we were in favour of peace at any price?
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Could not the right hon. Gentleman at least make this concession to the hon. Member asking the Question: in future, could not the doves of peace be represented by males of the domestic fowl?

  FREEMASONRY
  Mr. F. Longdenasked the Prime Minister whether, in the interests of all sides, he will move for the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the effects of Freemasonry on the political, religious, social and administrative life of the country.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. This is not a matter for which the Government are responsible, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister does not think that an inquiry of this kind would be appropriate.
  Mr. Longden: As I have received a large number of letters on this question might it not be good for freemasons themselves if, apart altogether from their rites and ceremonies, the suspicions and accusations concerning their influence on personal appointments and interference with our constitutional institutions were brought to the light of day?
  Mr. Morrison: I understand the point made by my hon. Friend, but I really think we have enough trouble without starting any more.
  Mr. Nabarro: Would not such an inquiry be an infringement of human liberties?

  HOME SECRETARY (SPEECH)
  Mr. Blackburnasked the Prime Minister whether the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department at South Shields on 8th April on the question of the control of General MacArthur represents the policy of His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I have been asked to reply. I would ask the hon. Member to await the statement I will make after Questions, from which he will see that my right hon. Friend's remarks represent broadly the views of His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Blackburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Home Secretary stated, "We cannot control General MacArthur because we do not pay him"; that that is both offensive and untrue and that it is high time His Majesty's Government, including the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, took responsibility for the foreign policy of this country, and dealt with the United States of America in the way in which the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and President Roosevelt did in the last war?
  Mr. Morrison: I would suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if I am not offended with my right hon. Friend, I do not see why he should be.

  ARMED FORCES

    Colonial Territories (Recruitment)
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Defence if he will arrange for a travelling board to visit colonial territories for the purpose of examining and attesting men desirous of joining the Fighting Services.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Shinwell): I am looking into the hon. and gallant Member's suggestion in conjunction with my Service colleagues.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is the right hon. Gentleman anxious that these men should join our Forces? If so, would he give them every consideration from that point of view?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am attracted by the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member and I am looking into it.
    Commander Noble: Is the Minister aware that if he does not carry out the suggestion would-be recruits who have travelled all the way to this country may not even be recruited?
    Mr. Shinwell: I have not said that I am not going to do it.
    Mr. Paget: Is the Minister aware there are some 10,000 trained personnel in Jamaica most anxious to join, and will he do something about it?
    Mr. Shinwell: I will certainly look into it.

    Senior Officers (Speeches)
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the Minister of Defence which generals and admirals he or the other Service Ministers have reproved for making political speeches in the past three months.
    Mr. Shinwell: None, Sir.
    Mr. Low: If that is the case, why should it be necessary for the right hon. Gentleman to say at a divisional Labour Party meeting, ten days ago, "I am becoming more and more reluctant to speak on public platforms, because it seems to me that all the speaking nowadays is being done by generals and admirals. In fact, I can hardly get a word in edgeways."? Was it not really irresponsible for the right hon. Gentleman to splash about like that?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am quite sure that the hon. Gentleman would not care to deprive me of an occasional splash. As for my reluctance to speak on public platforms, well, we have to give the Conservative Party a chance sometimes.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to a speech made by Sir Richard Gale

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    who is in charge of training in the British Army, in which he is alleged to have said in Washington, "We have not had a chance to shoot any bloody Russians so far, so let us have it"? If his attention has been drawn to that, what does he propose to do about it?
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Sir, my attention has been drawn to the report of a speech alleged to have been made by Sir Richard Gale. There is, I understand, a Question about it on the Order Paper to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, which is to be answered next Tuesday.
    Mr. Bellenger: Will my right hon. Friend deny the allegation that he is becoming more and more reluctant to speak on public platforms?
    Mr. Shinwell: Well, I did make an exception this morning.
    Brigadier Clarke: Does the Minister realise that the country appreciates his reluctance to speak on public platforms?
    Mr. Shinwell: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has some reason to say that.
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Defence what specific instructions he proposes to give covering pronouncements by serving officers on questions of policy.
    Mr. Shinwell: No fresh instructions are contemplated as this matter is covered by the existing King's Regulations for all three Services.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is it not obvious that the regulations are not being obeyed and that these incursions into policy make foreign relations very difficult and also bring within the realm of controversy the Services which ought to be kept out of it?
    Mr. Shinwell: If the regulations have not been obeyed, it does not necessarily follow that there is anything wrong with the regulations.
    Mr. Snow: Can my right hon. Friend tell us what is the position of British admirals who appear not to hold appointments and yet appear on the Active List, some of whom do not appear to hesitate to write rather controversial letters to "The Times"?
    Mr. Shinwell: Obviously, if an officer is retired and is no longer on the active list, we cannot control his speech-making.
    Commander Noble: Would the Minister point out that Admirals of the Fleet are never retired?
    Mr. Shinwell: Although that is so, they are not actually in the service of His Majesty, and I doubt very much if I could control their utterances.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does the Minister realise what a strain is put upon some of these military officers when, for 25 years, the Socialist Party and, for five years, His Majesty's Ministers have been denouncing many aspects of military affairs?
    Mr. Shinwell: I do not know whether they are suffering from any strain, but they look quite healthy to me.

    Atlantic Defence (Commonwealth Countries)
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Defence what organisation exists to enable Commonwealth and Atlantic Pact countries to decide the relative contributions to their mutual defence effort in different areas throughout the world.
    Mr. Shinwell: There is no formal organisation covering the whole field described in the hon. and gallant Member's Question. Naturally, however, these matters are the subject of consultations both among the North Atlantic Treaty countries and within the Commonwealth.
    Commander Noble: Does not the Minister consider it would be better if there were some organisation like this similar to the Combined Chiefs of Staff in the last war, which could decide what effort those countries should be prepared to make in various parts of the world?
    Mr. Shinwell: So far as the North Atlantic Treaty area is concerned, there is, of course, adequate machinery for the purpose in the Standing Group and the Military Committee which consists of Chiefs of Staff. But as regards the wider consideration implied in the Question, it is considered that the time is not ripe for such a development. At the same time, there is nothing to preclude either the United Kingdom Government or any of the other governments concerned with the

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    North Atlantic Treaty organisation from promoting conversations with other countries outside the North Atlantic Treaty area.
    Brigadier Head: Does not the Minister think that, in view of the present situation in the Middle East and the Far East, and of the necessity for protecting Western Europe, the conflict between those two requirements can never be properly resolved unless some such organisation is created?
    Mr. Shinwell: I beg the hon. and gallant Member not to assume that there are no conversations on the subject of Middle East defence between ourselves and other countries; nor must he assume that, although the North Atlantic Treaty organisation appears, for the time being, to be a closed shop, we are precluded from having conversations affecting the Middle East.
    Mr. P. Smithers: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that conversations on these matters are not enough? Will he investigate the possibility of setting up proper standing machinery to make sure that at least the Commonwealth and the United States are able to maintain a common viewpoint and policy?
    Mr. Shinwell: Obviously, these considerations are present in our minds. As the hon. Member will agree, it is desirable to have conversations preceding the promotion of an organisation.

    Chaplains (Car Allowances)
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Defence why, in view of the difficulty of obtaining commissioned chaplains for the Forces and the necessity to appoint local clergymen as officiating chaplains, there is a differentiation in the car mileage allowance of 3½d. per mile for appointed chaplains, and 6d. per mile for permanent commissioned chaplains.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am making inquiries and will communicate with the hon. Member.
    Mr. Crouch: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the rate of 3½d. per mile for officiating chaplains was fixed in 1936, and that the cost of maintaining and running a motor car has increased many times since then?
    Mr. Shinwell: When I saw this Question I made inquiries. It was disquieting that there should be any differentiation as between one kind of chaplain and another. Therefore, I decided to make further inquiries.

    United States Aid
    Mr. Lowasked the Minister of Defence what is the value of arms, vehicles and equipment which he expects to receive from the United States of America by way of military aid; how much will be allocated to the Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force, respectively; and if he will give further details of this aid.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am sure that the hon. Member will recognise that security considerations prevent my giving a precise answer to his Question. However, it is hoped that military aid from the United States during the current United States fiscal year in the form of finished items of military equipment will be substantial. Future allocations of this type of assistance will, of course, depend on discussions in the North Atlantic Treaty organisation and on the United States Administration and Congress.
    Mr. Low: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to make this information available in any form to Members of the House or to a Committee of the House, because this matter appears to be most important from the point of view of the control of public money here?
    Mr. Shinwell: There are some security difficulties. The essential thing is to get the material. That is what I am concerned with.
    Mr. Churchill: But is it not also important that we should know at least the general figures, showing the value of the help we are receiving in this respect?
    Mr. Shinwell: It may be that the right hon. Gentleman is right. I am sure, however, that he would not ask for details of the equipment furnished, but rather for the global figure.
    Mr. Churchill: Yes.
    Mr. Shinwell: This is hardly the time to give such a figure. I will consider the appropriate moment for so doing.
    Mr. Churchill: Has it not a relevance to the debates we shall be having in the next few weeks on the country's financial position?
    Mr. Shinwell: I should not have thought so, although it is a very important detail. Nevertheless, I should have hardly thought that it would preclude the right hon. Gentleman from participating in the debate.
    Mr. Harold Davies: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the importance of letting the British public know the ratio of the burden of expenditure on armaments per head of the population compared with that of the United States? Is he aware that this would help the British public to realise the proportion each country is bearing of the burden of international defence?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is an interesting point, but I can assure my hon. Friend that it has no relevance to the Question.
    Mr. Davies: On a point of order. Is not a Member entitled to an answer to a question when, despite the fact that the Minister may not think it is relevant, many members of the public know it to be relevant?
    Mr. Shinwell: But my hon. Friend will agree that I have to furnish the answer.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Kenya (Beef Exports)
    Mr. Yorkasked the Minister of Food (1) how many tons of beef were available for export from Kenya during 1950; how many tons his Department bought; and what is the present quantity on hoof now available for export;
    (2) why beef is being exported from Kenya to the Belgian Congo instead of to the United Kingdom;
    (3) what steps he has taken to discover the amount of beef available for export in Kenya; and what steps were taken in 1949 and 1950 to prepare for the export of beef from Kenya to the United Kingdom.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Maurice Webb): My Department, in consultation with the Colonial Office and Ministry of Agriculture, has investigated the possibility
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    of getting beef from Kenya. But until further progress is made in stamping out rinderpest, which is prevalent there, we could not import carcase beef from Kenya without risk of infection to our own livestock industry. I understand that about 500 tons of meat would have been available in 1950. There might be about 2,000 beasts in 1951. This meat is, however, only a seasonal surplus, and as soon as cold storage is available next year it may all be needed locally. Small quantities of fresh beef—about three tons a week—are being exported by air to the Belgian Congo because this does not require freezing facilities and because the regulations in the Congo about rinderpest permit this.
    Mr. York: In congratulating the Minister on learning a good deal about this subject in the last month, may I ask him what facilities are available in Kenya, with his help or otherwise, for finding means of getting over the difficulty caused by rinderpest? Second, can he say what help he is giving to the Kenya Government in their export preparations?
    Mr. Webb: Those are largely matters for the Colonial Office and the Kenya Government. I can say, however, that we are interested and happy to learn that they are setting up a freezer and cold storage plant, which is expected to be available by May, 1952, and that will help. On the other part of the Question, that is a matter for the Colonial Office.
    Mr. York: Is it not rather extraordinary that, in our present meat situation, the European producers of prime beef in Kenya were unable to sell any of their cattle from June, 1950, to January, 1951, and will not the Minister take some serious action to try to get over the difficulties which he has mentioned?
    Mr. Webb: Yes, Sir. In other parts of the world there was meat which I should like to have, but it would have to be brought in at risk to our own livestock. Obviously, we cannot take rash actions of that sort.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: Does the Minister's reply mean that none of the meat from the Bechuanaland cattle scheme will ever be available to the public here?
    Mr. Webb: That is another question.

    Irish Meat (Buying)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Food how many of his staff are employed in buying meat in Ireland; and what are their names, qualifications and salaries.
    Mr. Webb: My Department does not employ any staff in the Irish Republic to buy livestock or meat. Irish shippers deliver cattle and sheep to certain points in this country for purchase by my Department.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I ask the Minister what members of his staff are responsible for buying this meat? Although I have no particular personal interest, is he aware that the people who have gone to Ireland are the laughingstock of the whole place?
    Mr. Webb: I do not think that any people are particularly allocated for the handling of this meat. It comes through the normal machinery for handling the whole of our meat supplies at our ports.

KOREA (UNITED NATIONS POLICY)
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The House will have heard of the decisions taken by the President of the United States of America in regard to General MacArthur. In view, however, of the widespread interest and anxiety about the objectives and plans of the United Nations in Korea, I consider that it may be useful to deal with the various issues raised in the Questions on the Order Paper.
Let me deal first with the question of aims in Korea. Consultations in which we are taking an active part are proceeding between Governments as to a possible statement of aims in Korea in the light of the general situation. If, as I hope, these consultations are shortly concluded, I shall then be able to give the House further information. All I wish to say now—so that there may be no possible doubt on the matter—is that our aims are unchanged. We stand for resistance to aggression, a free, independent and unified Korea, and no extension of the conflict.
Great interest has been expressed in the machinery for consultation between
1026
the United Nations and their Commander in the field. The position is that the United States Government were invited by the Security Council of the United Nations to make provision for a Unified Command, and to designate a commander for the United Nations forces in Korea. The President of the United States is the Chief Executive of the Unified Command and he designated General MacArthur as Commander in Korea. The Unified Command is responsible for the implementation of United Nations Resolutions in regard to Korea and for issuing directives to the Commander of the United Nations forces.
Apart from constant exchanges of views with Commonwealth and other friendly governments through the diplomatic channels, there is continuous consultation in Washington between representatives of governments contributing forces in Korea. The views of His Majesty's Government are and have been made known to the United States Government whenever the need arises. Sometimes our views prevail, sometimes they do not. That is only natural in discussions of this kind involving a number of nations, and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the way in which the United States Government, on whom the main burden rests, has at all times displayed its readiness to consult and discuss in regard to these difficult problems.
The question of crossing the 38th Parallel cannot be treated apart from other matters concerning Korea. We were ready a few months ago to negotiate a cease-fire, and we are ready now. But it takes two to agree on a cease-fire, and so far the other side have shown no desire to stop hostilities in Korea. Consultations on crossing the Parallel began in February. I do not propose to reveal the nature of the discussions since the question of the extent of the advance of the United Nations forces has military as well as political aspects.
But I would not have the House think that the crossing of the 38th Parallel—despite all the attention it has received—is the main issue in Korea. The real issue is whether the North Koreans and Chinese are willing to negotiate a settlement. If they are, the question of the Parallel will soon cease to have any political importance, and I would hope that the aims to which so many nations,

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including the Soviet Union, have been pledged for so long—a free, unified and independent Korea—could be achieved by negotiation.
Let me now turn to the nature of the directives issued to the Commander of the United Nations forces in Korea since the establishment of the Unified Command. In the interests of the security and safety of the United Nations forces in Korea the House will not expect me to give precise details of these directives. I can, however, give an indication of their general content, and I shall try to summarise the instructions issued over a period of many months.
The Commander of the United Nations forces in Korea was instructed that the political aims of the United Nations called for resistance to aggression in Korea and included the long-standing aim of a free and independent Korea. He was told that these aims did not necessarily require the conquest of North Korea by force, though the disposition of troops and positions in the war of manœuvre in the vicinity of the 38th Parallel should be appropriate to defence against possible impending offensives by the Chinese and North Koreans.
He was told that operations should not be undertaken which extended the conflict beyond Korean territory, and that it was the intention of the United Nations to localise hostilities in Korea, and therefore that it was not their intention to become involved in general hostilities with China. And he was told that the powers of the Commander of the United Nations forces to conduct operations on behalf of the United Nations were limited to Korea, and were to be executed within the framework of declared United Nations policy.
I have given a summary of the instructions issued to the Commander of the United Nations forces in Korea, and I take this opportunity to associate His Majesty's Government fully with them. They represent the policy of our country and of the other countries with forces in Korea.
A number of questions on the Order Paper relate to the way in which General MacArthur has carried out his instructions. In view of the change of command, this episode is now closed, and I do not desire to say more than to draw the atten-
1028
tion of the House to the traditional British interpretation of the relationship between a military commander in the field and the Government to whom he is responsible. On this matter, successive British Governments have always consistently stood for the subordination of the military to the political. It is clear from the statement issued this morning by the President of the United States that, under the American Constitution and practice, the same interpretation is placed on this relationship, as indeed it must in any democratic country where the views of the people, expressed by their freely elected governments, must be paramount.
I should like, if I may, to turn for a moment from the issues raised in the questions on the Order Paper. These issues which relate to Korea are of the highest importance, and I have tried to deal with them at some length in order to remove any doubt and misunderstanding.
The record of General MacArthur is, however, not to be judged solely by some of his recent public utterances. He was a great servant of the Allies during the war in the Pacific, and he has proved himself a brilliant soldier. He has displayed qualities of the highest order in his conduct of the occupation in Japan. These are achievements which will be remembered long after the immediate controversy has been forgotten.
I hope that the House will bear with me if, in view of the announcement this morning in Washington, I do not deal with all the detailed points raised in the questions. This is not the time to look back but to look forward, and I take this opportunity of expressing the confidence of His Majesty's Government in General Ridgway, the new United Nations Commander in Korea, who has already shown such brilliant qualities in the field.
I, like my right hon. Friend my predecessor, am anxious to see whether we can bring about a negotiated settlement and, as I said at the beginning of this statement, consultations have been and still are, proceeding between the Governments. I hope shortly to be able to say something further on where we stand in Korea, and on what should be our policy for the future.
Mr. Churchill: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that there is general agreement on this side

1029
of the House with what he calls the traditional view that the constitutional and civil authorities should control the actions of military commanders? May I also associate us on this side with what he has said about the brilliant services which General MacArthur has rendered throughout the Great War and since in the direction of affairs in Japan, and say that we do not feel that these troubles which have occurred recently in any way diminish the great quality of the services which he has rendered?
Mr. Wyatt: Would my right hon. Friend cause it informally to be conveyed to President Truman that the people of this country deeply appreciate the courage that was needed to take this action and have fully appreciated the reasons for his actions all along?
Mr. Morrison: I will think about that, but there will be a little argument somewhere else and I do not want to get involved in it.
Captain Soames: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as long ago as 12th February the Prime Minister informed the House that consultations were taking place within the United Nations as to the advisability of a military crossing of the 38th Parallel? Can he say whether the conversations have been going on ever since that date and whether any conclusions have been arrived at?
Mr. Morrison: Conversations have been going on but, as I said, it would not really be in the interest of the campaign that I should be too specific on that matter.
Mr. Driberg: As a sequel to this morning's announcement, would my right hon. Friend address himself very seriously to the difficult task of persuading the Chinese that the change in the Supreme Command was made because the policies proclaimed in Tokyo were wrong and were not in accordance with the United Nations aims and not merely because the Supreme Commander was being indiscreet?
Mr. Morrison: I can assure my hon. Friend I shall do my best in the matter. If he will also be so good as to do his best to persuade the Chinese to be forthcoming then I shall be much obliged.
Mr. Blackburn: While agreeing entirely with the general tone of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, may I ask whether he will take account of the fact that the announcement made by President Truman today was made by him as Commander-in-Chief of American Forces and there is no statement that it was made on behalf of the United Nations? May I ask him to give urgent consideration to the Question on the Order Paper in my name asking for the improvement of channels which enable us to see that our influence is felt in relation to the conduct of the campaign in Korea?
Mr. Morrison: I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman could cheer up in all the circumstances of the case. It is perfectly true that the President of the United States acts sometimes in one capacity and sometimes in another. After all, I have been acting in two capacities this afternoon.
Mr. McGovern: May I ask my right hon. Friend if he is aware that there is a general feeling amongst people in the country that one of the reasons for General MacArthur's talking so much was because the politicians seemed to fail to state very clearly not only their objectives but whether or not we could conduct this campaign successfully without carrying out the policy that General MacArthur has enunciated?
Mr. Morrison: I will keep that point in mind.
Mr. Nigel Fisher: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that what is really required in Korea and what has been sadly lacking since the very inception of the war is strong central strategic direction of the war such as we had in the Second World War under my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill).
Mr. Morrison: I should not have thought this was an occasion for the hon. Member to bring in such a partisan consideration.
Mr. McAllister: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the issues raised by the statement made by the President this morning are far larger than those concerning the Commanding Officer? Would he not agree that the question

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really involved is the structure and constitution of the United Nations? Will His Majesty's Government give some attention to that problem to make it a more effective world organisation?
Mr. Morrison: I appreciate that there is the point in what my hon. Friend has said and in what has been hinted at in other questions. This is, of course, a novel departure—what are in fact warlike operations being conducted by 14 nations through the United Nations. As I have said on other occasions, we have to learn as we go and do our best.
Mr. Henry Strauss: Were not the aims of the United Nations in Korea authoritatively set out in a resolution adopted by the Assembly of the United Nations on 7th October last? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the aims there set out have complete legal validity until the Assembly or other organ of the United Nations chooses to alter them?
Mr. Morrison: That is so, but there is no reason why a revised version should not be issued so long as it is consistent with the resolution.
Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the new Commander, Lieut.-General Ridgway, has stated there is no end in sight to the Korean war under present military conditions unless there is a political settlement? Can he tell us if he has any comments to make on that statement and what authority, so far as the United Nations are concerned, lies behind it?
Mr. Gammans: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the consultations to which he referred just now concern only the future of Korea or do they include the whole of the defence of the Far East in view of the fact that Korea is not the only country in Asia in which aggression is being resisted at this moment?
Mr. Morrison: The consultations to which I was referring were with a view to bringing hostilities to an end in Korea if possible, but we are always willing to consult on the wider questions affecting the Far East.
Mr. William Teeling: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, presumably, this arrangement about General
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MacArthur is due to the Korean situation and that Lieut.-General Ridgway has great knowledge of what is going on in Korea? But will he also remember that there may be difficulties going on in Japan of which the new general may have no knowledge whatsoever? Might it not be possible to have a civilian representative there until the peace treaty is signed?
Mr. Morrison: There is some relationship between the two posts.

ANGLO-EGYPTIAN DISCUSSIONS
Mr. Churchill(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make on negotiations between this country and Egypt.
Mr. H. Morrison: My predecessor agreed with the Egyptian Foreign Minister that neither His Majesty's Government nor the Egyptian Government would make any comment on the substance of the matters at present being discussed between the two Governments. In view of this mutual undertaking, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to await the report which I shall be making in due course to the House.
Mr. Churchill: Will this report be made to the House before definite decisions have been taken or after?
Mr. Morrison: We shall handle the matter in such a way that the full and proper rights of the House will be kept open.
Mr. Churchill: I ventured to say the other day that the House has not claimed to interfere with the treaty-making power of the Government. What does the right hon. Gentleman then mean by "full and proper rights"? Would we be safe in assuming that he will endeavour to carry the House with him before he commits himself to a definite decision on so grave a matter?
Mr. Morrison: On this particular matter I am very conscious of the desirability of carrying the House with me, but one must keep in mind that the right hon. Gentleman was good enough on another subject some time ago to support me in taking the view that Governments

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must have the right to reach treaties and agreements so long as it does not prejudice the right of the House to overthrow that treaty or agreement when it is put before it. That principle I shall scrupulously respect, but it is very difficult to conduct negotiations with a foreign Power and at the same time to have a running discussion in Parliament about it. It has not only to be submitted in due course to this Parliament—that is to say if we agree and I cannot be sure that we shall—but it has also to be submitted to another Parliament. The House will realise that if we were to bring the matter before Parliament, before the parties have reached their own conclusions, it would follow that the other parties to the discussion might have to do the same. Therefore, while I shall handle the matter in a way which fully preserves the rights of the House of Commons, I cannot undertake to bring the matter before the House from time to time while the discussions are going on.
Mr. Churchill: Does not this amount to the fact that we are to be told nothing about this matter until a decision is taken definitely one way or the other, which may perhaps involve the immediate or early withdrawal of British troops from the Suez Canal Zone with all the consequences that that entails in the Middle East and beyond? If that is the position, are we not bound on this side of the House to initiate a debate upon the matter and make sure that the House has an opportunity of bringing home to the Government its opinion about the state of affairs in the Levant and in Egypt about which there is a great deal of anxiety at the present time?
Mr. Morrison: With every respect, I do not think that is a course which is obligatory upon the Opposition in any case. In discussions with foreign Powers one must proceed and reach a point of agreement or disagreement; there is no other way to do it, and at the end of the day the Government are responsible to Parliament. Parliament has every right to upset the agreement, and I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that, although it was upon another matter in which he agreed with me as to the course I was taking—it makes a difference in these issues—he most emphatically came to my rescue; somebody on this side of
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the House was trying to hold me up and the right hon. Gentleman stated that we were absolutely right to preserve the treaty-making power of the Government. But I shall fully respect the rights of Parliament in the matter.
Mr. Churchill: Is not the right hon. Gentleman avoiding the point? According to what he said, the rights of Parliament would be fully preserved in that after he has taken decisions and made agreements which Parliament could not alter without a breach of our traditions and customs, and only after, we are allowed an opportunity of debating the matter. Would it not be wiser and better, as the Treaty does not end until 1956, for us to discuss this matter beforehand?
Mr. Morrison: I think that would be a most inconvenient course. The Foreign Secretary or his representative cannot very well discuss important negotiations of this sort at the end of a Parliamentary string, so to speak, and I say that with the very greatest respect to the House. Neither do I want the Egyptians to discuss the matter at the end of a Parliamentary string. I really think that we are taking the proper constitutional course. I do not know whether these discussions will succeed or not. I appreciate their importance and I understand the feelings of the House in matters relating to this kind of thing, but I think it would be constitutionally an innovation and undesirable, if we were to do other than proceed, reach a conclusion with the representatives of His Majesty the King of Egypt, and then report to the House. The House would be doing nothing constitutionally wrong if in its wisdom it decided to upset the agreement. The House is perfectly free. Naturally the Government will have their own point of view which they can put before the House, but they must be the servants of the House in the end.
Mr. Churchill: That is very important. If it is understood that no agreement which is now being made will have validity until the House has had an opportunity of discussing it, which is what I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say, I shall press the matter no further. Is that the position?
Mr. Morrison: I think that is right. We make the agreement and we lay it

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on the Table. Everybody will understand—not only ourselves but the Egyptians—that Parliament has the right to intervene, and until the period in which Parliament has the right to intervene has gone, obviously there is no finality.
Mr. Somerset de Chair: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that when these matters were last discussed in this House his predecessor stated that the matter of a revision of the Treaty rested on the Treaty of 1936, and that the Government proposed to make no change in the terms of the Treaty? What can possibly have happened within the last two or three months to justify any revision of the terms of the Treaty of 1936? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware not only that this Treaty has five and a half years to run, but that provision is made in the Treaty for its continuation at the end of that time, because it is possible for the British Government to take to arbitration the question of whether or not the Egyptian Government are then in a position to maintain the full security of the Suez Canal?
Mr. Morrison: I have not concealed the Treaty. The Treaty is still there and we shall see whether it will be amended or not. For the rest of the hon. Gentleman's somewhat long supplementary, I think that he was trying to draw me into a situation which I have been particularly careful to avoid.
Sir Peter Macdonald: Before any conclusion is reached in this connection, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the views of other parts of the Commonwealth are considered, especially Australia and Far Eastern countries who are greatly affected by any changes in this respect?
Mr. Morrison: The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations will never let me forget the Commonwealth; nor would I wish to.
Mr. Henry Hopkinson: Does not the fact that these negotiations include the Sudan, which is an Anglo-Egyptian Condominium and, therefore, half British territory, put these negotiations in a different category from ordinary diplomatic negotiations? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that no
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alteration will be made in the status of the Sudan without consulting this House, and, may I suggest, without consulting the Sudanese people themselves through their national assembly?
Mr. Morrison: We are on record, and I repeat it, that certainly the people of the Sudan would have to be consulted. For the rest, the issue as regards what might be a factor in these discussions—I do not say what the result would be—is in the same category as the assurance I gave to the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Mitchison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a similar question arose in connection with the Hoare-Laval Agreement some time ago which was concluded between Governments in exactly the manner he contemplates, and was then upset by Parliament, as Parliament could upset the proposed agreement now?
Mr. Morrison: To the best of my recollection my hon. and learned Friend is quite right.
Mr. Churchill: Is it not clear that the Hoare-Laval Agreement was not a treaty? Is it not also clear that the right hon. Gentleman does not mean as a general rule to abrogate the treaty-making rights of the Executive under the Crown? Is it not also clear that he is making an exception in this case by making any provisional agreement which may be reached between him and the Egyptian authorities a matter which will require the approval of the House?
Mr. Morrison: I think the statement I have made was clear and understandable. I would sooner leave it there.
Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: However much the right hon. Gentleman may consider that he can pledge this House in anticipation, will he say under what right he can pledge the Commonwealth and the other countries which are bound by the Treaty to the effects of some diminution of our rights in Egypt?
Mr. Morrison: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been listening wrongly. I did not say anything about committing the Commonwealth. Somebody asked me whether we would keep the Commonwealth informed or whether we were forgetting them, and I gave an assurance that we would certainly not forget the Commonwealth countries.
Mr. Paget: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a new treaty might bring to an end our rights under the 1936 Treaty and, if it were subsequently not approved by this House, that fact would nevertheless not revive our rights under the 1936 Treaty, or might not do so? Would he bear that very carefully in mind?
Mr. Morrison: I shall bear that in mind.
Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this issue has reached its present stage because there is a feeling on all sides of the House that the policy which His Majesty's Government adopt towards this matter is not in entire accordance with the wishes of the House?
Mr. Morrison: We were getting along so nicely and then the hon. Gentleman tries to upset it all. That is really too bad.

CHEESE RATION
Mr. Webb: With permission I should like to make a statement about the cheese ration.
An Order in Council will shortly be made to give effect to the prayer for the annulment of the amending order which had reduced the ration to 2 oz. a week. The House will, however, realise that the matter cannot be left there. Apart from home production, we can secure rationed varieties of cheese from only a limited number of sources: the Southern Dominions, the U.S.A. and Canada. We are already buying all the cheese available from the Southern Dominions and there is at present no means of accelerating arrivals from those countries. Indeed, there is a risk that arrivals may fall behind our estimates as the result of the strike in New Zealand. We have already distributed, in the increased ration that has been operating since January, the supplies we were able to buy in the U.S.A. at the end of last season. We hope to buy further supplies from North America next season; but at this time of year that Continent has no cheese for export.
I have, therefore, to inform the House that, taking the most hopeful view of probable arrivals for some time ahead and of current production at home, the
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supplies available will not serve to sustain a ration greater than 2 oz. To increase the ration to 3 oz. now would within the next month or so make a reduction to 1 oz. inescapable, and I would hope that the House will agree that the maintenance of the 2 oz. level is the wiser course.
I propose therefore to make a new order, in replacement of that which is being annulled by the will of the House, to re-establish the 2 oz. ration. The order will be laid before the House as soon as possible after the annulment of the existing order; and it will be so worded as to come into operation forthwith.
Captain Crookshank: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the House is to be called upon to reverse a decision accepted by the Government the other night, it is important that it should have the fullest possible information? May I, therefore, ask him these two questions? First, will he on this occasion, at any rate, change his practice and give us full information of the actual amount of cheese available in the country now and how much is in sight, so that we can assess the value of his argument by figures? Second, when he states that we are already buying all the cheese available in the Southern Dominions, does he mean all the cheese there or all the cheese available at a price which His Majesty's Government think they ought to pay? There may be a considerable difference between those two sets of figures.
Mr. Webb: In reply to the second part of that question, I can say at once that the answer is "all the cheese that is there." We undertake to take the whole of their exportable surplus and, in fact, do take it. In reply to the first part of the question, I think it would be quite improper publicly to reveal the figures of our stocks. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because it would not help us in present negotiations about prices. I am, however, prepared to give the responsible leaders of the Opposition, in confidence, all the facts about it.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up the position as it exists today? Is it not a fact that under Section 5 of the Statutory Instruments Act it is not possible to bring proceedings under an Order as from the

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time the House passes a Motion requesting the annulment? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore make it clear that any trader, wholesaler or retailer, who from today wishes to honour a 3 oz. ration can do so with impunity?
Mr. Webb: No, Sir. There are differing legal views about it. I have been in very close consultation with lawyers about the position. It is a very difficult position for traders. I am satisfied that the Order stands until it has been annulled and, therefore, I cannot make a statement of that sort to traders. Indeed, I hope that traders will act responsibly and maintain the ration at the present level.
Mr. H. Hynd: Pending the issue of a new order, would my right hon. Friend consider meeting the wishes of the House by bringing the more expensive types of cheese within the ration at controlled prices?
Mr. Webb: That would mean a further use of our food subsidies and I think we are spending as much on subsidising cheese as we can afford at the moment.
Sir Stanley Holmes: Having regard to the fact that the Deputy-Leader of the House accepted the decision of the House the other night, is the Minister of Food calling upon him to resign?
Mr. Webb: We are, in fact, accepting the decision of the House. The order will be annulled, but in view of the stock position it is my duty to inform the House of my responsibilities. That is the position. If we insist on imposing a 3 oz. ration it will not be possible to maintain the ration after about the end of the present month.
Sir Herbert Williams: On the constitutional issue, is it not a fact that when the right hon. Gentleman says he accepts the decision of the House there is no option? It is a constitutional obligation under the Statutory Instruments Act. Moreover, in respect of the last order which was annulled, just before the Recess, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the new order was made before it had been possible to call a Privy Council to annul the old order? Is he not also aware that under the Statutory Instruments Act the moment an annulment Resolution is
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passed, the order remains inoperative, despite the fact that a Privy Council has not been held for the purpose of dealing with the annulment?
Mr. Webb: I do not claim to be an authority on these matters. My job is to deal purely with the question of food. I am quite certain that the decision I have taken is one which the House, in its wisdom, ought to support.
Mr. McKibbin: Is the Minister aware that a short time ago I asked him a question about a firm in Belfast who were refused permission to import cheese from the Republic of Eire because it was being imported in 5 lb. boxes instead of 1 lb. packets and that the result is that all the cheese now goes to Germany?
Mr. Webb: If the hon. Gentleman would like to consult me about that particular problem we will see what can be done about it.
Mr. Harold Davies: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) has demonstrated the penalty of the Opposition's ebullient irresponsibility, since they were egged on by the Council of the Housewives' League to ask for the rescinding of cheese rationing? They assumed during the Prayer that they knew all the facts but they are now asking what are the real facts. They have put the country in a very difficult situation.
Sir John Mellor: Does the Minister agree that the relevant section of the Statutory Instruments Act states that from the date of the successful Prayer the order shall cease to have effect and that no further proceedings shall be taken thereunder? Will he therefore explain how he can possibly be in doubt about the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter)?
Mr. Webb: I want to make this clear. If, in this situation of misunderstanding, anybody has infringed the regulations, on my interpretation of them, no proceedings will be taken; nobody intends to take them. There is, in fact, some difference of interpretation on that point. On the advice I have been given I have taken the view I have expressed to the House.
Mr. Manuel: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Opposition are quite irresponsible in this matter? Will he make an announcement to the country asking responsible people to buy or sell on the 2 oz. ration and so make it certain that the weaker sections of the community do not have to go without cheese during certain periods?
Air Commodore Harvey: The right hon. Gentleman said he had taken all the available cheese from the Southern Dominions, but he did not say he had taken all the available cheese from Canada. Are there immediate supplies available from Canada? What does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do about obtaining cheese from the Empire?
Mr. Webb: This is not the season for obtaining cheese.
Air Commodore Harvey: Why did not the right hon. Gentleman get it during the season?
Mr. Webb: We did obtain it during the season and, while we did so, the cheese ration went up to 3 oz. That supply is now exhausted. There is now no cheese available in the North American Continent. At the moment a cheese-buying mission is about to visit Canada with a view to making arrangements for next season. This is the appropriate time of the year for that. There is no sense in having a mission go to Canada—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—just wait for the facts—to make arrangements for the purchase of cheese until we know approximately, in the light of their knowledge, what supplies are available or are likely to be available. This is the normal time of the year for that mission to proceed. It will proceed. Arrangements will be made and we shall again take all the cheese we can obtain from Canada.
Mr. Snow: When my right hon. Friend says that he will disclose confidential information to a responsible Member of the Opposition, does he realise that hon. Members on this side are anxious that he should make it clear to any such hon. Members opposite that there are importing trade associations whom this confidential information should not reach?
Sir Waldron Smithers: Is not the whole solution of this problem to stop bulk
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buying and to allow the traders, to have the knowledge of the trade, to do the buying? Then we shall get all the cheese we want.
Mrs. Jean Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the lowering of the ration to 2 oz. will force housewives to purchase supplies which are not subsidised and which are not purchased in bulk? Instead of paying 1s. 2d. per lb. for a vital item of food for the table, she will now have to pay from 3s. 4d. to 5s. for non-bulk purchased cheese.
Mr. Duncan Sandys: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department must now be receiving a number of inquiries from retailers, will he say what guidance he is giving as to whether they are entitled or not entitled to sell the increased ration now?
Mr. Webb: I have already made that clear. That guidance was given to the responsible trade organisations yesterday morning.
Mr. Henry Strauss: For the information of hon. Members and the guidance of the Press, would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government think it better that the Opposition should put down Prayers upon which they divide or upon which they do not?
Sir Ian Fraser: May I revert to the exportable surplus? Did the right hon. Gentleman mean to indicate that there is no cheese that can be bought in the Southern Dominions or anywhere else at any price? He said that we were taking the whole of the exportable surplus, but does not any amount of export depend upon the price paid and upon what terms we are prepared to make?
Mr. Webb: That is quite true. We are taking the whole exportable surplus. Recently, under an arrangement with the New Zealand Government, we have undertaken to increase the price. The price now will be 7½ per cent. more than it was, and we shall then continue, at that new price, to take the exportable surplus.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We cannot go on discussing this indefinitely.
Miss Horsbrugh: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of his last supplementary answer, he means that

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he is going to pay more now for the cheese than he was paying last year, and, therefore, get more cheese? If he had been willing to pay that amount would he have got more cheese?
Mr. Webb: If we had been willing to pay more last year we should not have got more cheese. Costs have gone up since, and, in the light of the increased costs to the producer, largely arising out of the Korean war—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is a fact—they are entitled to have more money. Those are the facts. I should be glad to make clear to the House that no demand, came from the New Zealand Government or traders before the Korean war for increased prices. It has come only since increased costs have come—increased costs of feedingstuffs, and increases in other expenses in maintaining production. We have now agreed to pay more money.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTION
  FULL EMPLOYMENT AND PRODUCTION
  Mr. Hayman: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 27th April, I shall call attention to the need for maintaining full employment and production, and move a Resolution.
  SECONDARY EDUCATION (ORGANISATION)
  Mr. Moyle: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 27th April, I shall call attention to the need for the organisation of secondary education, and move a Resolution.
  INDUSTRY (INCENTIVE PAYMENTS)
  Mr. Crouch: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 27th April, I shall call attention to the desirability of encouraging systems of incentive payments in industry, and move a Resolution.
BILL PRESENTED
  FIRE SERVICES BILL
  "to amend sections twenty-six and twenty-seven of the Fire Services Act, 1947," presented by Mr. Ede; supported by Mr. McNeil, Mr. de Freitas and Miss Herbison; read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 89.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 10th April].
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]
  Question again proposed,

  WAYS AND MEANS

    AMENDMENT OF LAW
    That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt (including the sinking funds therefor), Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise), with or without amendment of the law relating to purchase tax of the following descriptions:—

    (a) amendments to exempt from tax, or charge with tax at the first or second rate (instead of a higher rate), goods comprised in Group 4, 11, 12 or 31 and now chargeable at the first rate, or goods comprised in Group 5 or 6 and now chargeable at the first or second rate, or goods comprised in Group 23 and now chargeable at the first, second or third rate, but so as not to prejudice the power of the Treasury to make orders under section twenty-one of the Finance Act, 1948;

    (b) amendments to make provision for the giving to the Treasury of advice and assistance in the exercise of the said power by a body to be constituted for the purpose, and for the powers and duties in that behalf of that body and other subordinate matters.

  BUDGET PROPOSALS AND ECONOMIC SURVEY
  4.18 p.m.
  Mr. Oliver Lyttelton: I think it will be necessary for me to devote a large part of my remarks to the general economic background of the problems which the Budget seeks to solve. The right hon. Gentleman, in his very lucid explanation yesterday, made quite clear how the incidence of the taxes would operate.
  First of all, I should like to express some pleasure that the authors of the Economic Survey this year have decided to abandon the practice of prophesying. The authors have left the prophet's mantle in the cloakroom, and I think that, if they have not already lost the ticket, they are quite determined to lose it sometime. That is to be welcomed. Here and there in their historical retrospect they treated us to a delightful extravaganza in the art of special pleading. By suppressing all the inconvenient things like the fuel crisis—they did not have to go back to the Battle of Waterloo for

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  that—the convertibility crisis, the Daltonian inflation, rising prices, and so forth, they have been able to dish the whole thing up in a sort of illuminated address to the Government—no doubt, all ready for the Dome of Discovery at the Festival of Britain.
  I should like to begin by saying how delighted I am with the financial results for 1950–51. I make no bones about it that they are far better than I ever estimated that they would be in my greatest moments of optimism. If we could ignore the causes which led to so much of the recovery, I think that we should all have solid grounds for satisfaction. Everybody in the House is heartened by the achievements of our exporters. There again, they achieved figures which I do not think any of us expected. I get the added satisfaction from their achievements because exporters are, of course, all free enterprise undertakings, with the exception of coal, and there unfortunately our record was not quite so good.
  Every Member of the Committee, I am sure, feels great satisfaction that at the beginning of 1951 we can stand on our own feet and do not have to rely any more upon external aid. A proper tribute is paid in the Economic Survey to the great help which the United States of America, the Dominions and Canada, in particular, have given us through loans and through Marshall Aid, and I think that we might pause at this moment to express our gratitude for one of the greatest and most unselfish acts of statesmanship—and I am thinking particularly of Marshall Aid—in history.
  Judged by themselves, these achievements are a great tribute to the vitality of our people. I think that the results give solid ground for satisfaction, but, unfortunately, much of the success in restoring our balance of payments, for example, and much of the success even of our exporters has been due to causes which everyone in the House deplores. It is as well to remember that about this time last year the business outlook was uncertain and hesitant. Exporters were wondering whether the demand for their exports would be kept up. Profit margins were being cut and German and Japanese competition was beginning to be felt. Two months later, all this uncertainty was resolved by the outbreak of the Korean War.
  1046
  We would have preferred to work out the problems for ourselves and not have had them worked out for us by such a terrible event. But there it is, and since the Korean War began we have seen the vast American re-armament budget of £25,000 million sterling, and the large contribution which we are rightly to make ourselves. This has led to rising prices of raw materials and manufactures the world over, but it has made it possible for the sterling area to achieve a large overall surplus, and has, temporarily at least, greatly altered for the better many of our balance of payments problems.
  I am trying to deal with the broad issue. I would say that the first thing that strikes one about the Chancellor's Budget is the extraordinarily little elbow room or liberty of manœuvre which he had. In last year's Budget debate my right hon. and hon. Friends and I laid particular stress on the fact that in times of peace—and to most of us it has seemed a most uncertain kind of peace—the Government had committed themselves to spend almost all the money which they could possibly raise. There was nothing in hand for an emergency, and almost everyone except the Government saw that emergency looming ever nearer and nearer.
  In 1950 the emergency came. The outbreak of the Korean War showed even the Government that it was necessary to start to re-arm on a big scale. How is that re-armament to be financed? Yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer spent some time in explaining that there is no form of Government expenditure which could possibly be reduced, and I shall have something to say about that later on. I should like the Committee, first of all, to address itself to that argument in the context of what I am now saying.
  In this context, all that the Chancellor was saying is, "My predecessors had pledged every asset of the estate which I have just inherited, and I find that there are no possible reductions in the commitments which I can make." This argument, which is no doubt an excuse for himself, if a somewhat unjustifiable one, is one more condemnation of six years of Socialist management of our finances. "What can I do?" is the age-long cry of those who find themselves in a position out of which they have difficulty in manœuvring.

  1047
  I said that I did not accept the Chancellor's statement that he could make no economies. He set out the problem very clearly and, I think, very fairly from his point of view. I should be the first to admit that economies in Government expenditure must be discussed under two categories. The first is administrative expenses, which are just the housekeeping expenses of keeping the Government and its servants going. I think—and I am going to put a figure to it—that about £50 million could be knocked off the cost of administration if the Government really tried.
  It is impossible to do more than indicate the general lines upon which such economies should be made. I think that if he is fortunate enough to catch your eye, Major Milner, we shall have a speech from one of my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee who will go into great detail on some of these matters, but I want to say that there are a number of things which I wish the Chancellor would look into.
  There is far too much inspection going on over industry and other things. We find that there are three or four inspectors where one would do. There is far too little economy in the use of Government clerical manpower, and I have with my own eyes frequently seen practices going on which, if they occurred in my own business, would lead to the immediate dismissal of the manager. One cannot raise the Government's stationery bill from £2 million in 1938 to £16 in 1950 without engaging a great many extra people to write on that paper. We have to pay not only for the paper but for all these extra people. Hon. Members opposite can think what they like, but I want to record my opinion that over the whole field of Government administration, which, after all, in this context accounts for about £2,500 million, ignoring defence and debt services, it is possible to lop £50 million off administration expenses.
  The other category has, of course, changed as a result of policy. I was rather horrified by the Chancellor's statement or his acceptance that there could be no way of saving on the £1,500 million which was, by and large, the expenditure on armaments. I have been in the business myself. I was Minister
  1048
  of Production for over three years, and I can tell the Committee that there is no field of Government expenditure where greater waste is possible unless the most rigid control is kept over every item of expenditure. That, of course, will perhaps not produce the total sum—I do not want to be unfair—but it will accelerate our arms production.
  For heaven's sake do not let the Chancellor genuflect to re-armament expenditure under the idea that the Treasury should keep their hands off this field. It is the very one in which they should be intrusive. Never in the past have they stifled the production of weapons, and I do not think there is any chance of them carrying it that far, but it is absolutely necessary for them to scrutinise and criticise and prune armament expenditure as one of the first contributions to the subject.
  We have always said that the administration of the Health Services lent itself to abuse, not, of course, by the great majority of the people who use that service and benefit by it, but by the unpatriotic minority who were beginning to be seen. It is common knowledge that we have advocated making some charge for spectacles and false teeth as a means of economising and preventing abuses. In spite of some of the things that were said at the South Hammersmith by-election and others, the Government have now at long last come round to this unpleasant—and very unpleasant—but, I fear, necessary method of economy.
  On this point I should like to ask why the Minister of Labour still finds himself a Member of His Majesty's Government. I have not the slightest doubt that there is some explanation, which at the present moment escapes me. According to my information, he was reported as saying—I hope he will correct me if I am wrong—that he would never be a Member of a Government which made charges on the National Health Service for a patient. Is his continued membership of the Government due to a definition of this word "patient"? That was suggested last night by the hon. Member for Warrington (Dr. Morgan).
  I think the explanation must be that a man who gets very ill, has all his teeth out and gets a National Service denture is not a patient within the definition of the

  1049
  Minister of Labour. Am I right about that? Or, of course, it might be that a man whose sight is defective, who has to go to the oculist and is supplied with spectacles under the National Health Servise is not a patient within the definition of the Minister of Labour.
  Whether that explanation is right or not—and I offer it to him with my compliments—surely we are entitled in this Committee to have a full account of the struggle which he has had with his conscience, and to learn the reasons why upon this occasion at least his conscience has not won. Whatever the explanation offered, we must now all realise that this rugged monolith of the Labour movement is now standing precariously balanced on the foundation of a verbal quibble.
  Mr. McGovern: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that the Opposition pioneered the way for this charge for spectacles and false teeth, and that they take credit for having forced the Chancellor to do this?
  Mr. Lyttelton: Frankly, I do not think there is any credit in it. I make no bones about it. We think it was a necessary measure, although it is a very regrettable measure. The Government have introduced it and they must take the full responsibility.
  I now turn to the most significant omission from the Chancellor's speech yesterday. His speech lasted two and a quarter hours, or thereabouts—and I promise him that I make no complaint about that, because I listened with deep interest and attention to his very good presentation of the subject—and in that long time he made no mention of what I consider to be the most important aspect of our economic affairs today. He made no mention of the possibilities of increased production.
  It is significant that the Economic Survey puts the possible increase in production in 1951 at about 4 per cent. above the level reached in 1950, and seems to estimate that we can maintain the same rate of production as we were attaining during the last quarter of 1950. I would remind the Committee that a fall of 1 per cent. in our production would reduce our national resources by £80 million.
  1050
  One would have thought that if there was one subject which the Chancellor should not have omitted, it was this very one, because it is by these means, if they are open to us, that we could close the inflationary gap and solve many of the difficulties from which the consumer will suffer by rising prices. It is not too much to say—and it has been said by many people on the Government side as well as on this side of the Committee—that increased production would immeasurably ease the whole problem.
  Why did the Chancellor omit it from his statement? I cannot accept that he omitted it for lack of time. I think there must be some other reason, and I wonder whether this is not it. If he raised the matter of increased production, would he not inevitably have had to say something about the subject of British industry being supplied with the necessary raw materials to admit of this increase? I think that is why he omitted this question.
  Of course, the plain fact is that at the beginning of their administration in 1946 and 1947 the Government were faced with a great shortage of foreign exchange. That was not their fault; it was largely the heritage of the war. But in the mind of Sir Stafford Cripps the shortage of dollars became an obsession. He was perfectly right to have that obsession during 1948 and 1949, but from the beginning of 1950 we should have started to buy raw materials and use our foreign exchange to do it. It is notable that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Sir A. Salter)—whom we are all very glad to see back in this House, and who I hope will be lucky enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye later in this debate—wrote an article in the "Financial Times" last summer, in which he pointed out that the Government should have been running down their surpluses abroad and going shorter of money and longer of commodities.
  Industrialists, and all those engaged in business, are very familiar with this problem. It is perhaps too much of an excursion into the obvious to say to the Committee that if nothing is done about it and one just lets things be, the stocks of a business will always rise at a time of falling demand and will always fall at a time of rising demand. That is quite obvious, and much of our business ingenuity is used in trying to prevent those

  1051
  kinds of things from happening. But this is just what has happened to the Government. In traders' parlance, they are now long of money and short of goods at a time when the skilful trader would be short of money and long of goods. Perhaps that is why the Chancellor omitted from a very long speech perhaps the most important of all means by which we could alleviate the economic difficulties of the day.
  I apologise to the Committee, but I must reinforce my point with figures. According to the White Paper on National Income and Expenditure, the Government's trade stocks fell by £132 million based on 1950 prices. Of course, at replacement costs in 1951 this would probably be well over £150 million, and perhaps over £160 million. I cannot estimate the figure because I have no detailed knowledge of the commodities held in the Government stocks. As the Chancellor told us very candidly yesterday, one of the reasons there appeared to be an economy in Government expenditure was because they had not bought many of the raw materials—I suppose such as meat and metals—for which they had estimated. So, when the Chancellor is talking about economies he is unfortunately in a very bad position, because what he told us yesterday was that he can make no economies where they should be made but that he has made economies where they should not be made.
  I now turn to the subject of devaluation—not a subject which Government spokesmen in these days are particularly anxious to ventilate. If we were to listen to some of the Government spokesmen, we should be led to believe that the rise in prices and the rise in the cost of living—which is perhaps the most serious of all our economic problems today—were due to the Korean war. I think we had some echo of that at Question time this very day. On this subject the Government have not yet succeeded in coordinating either their ideas or their policy or their public statements. I give the Committee an instance. The "Bulletin for Industry," a Treasury publication, in April, 1951, used these words:
  "The first tendency in answering that question is to assume that because raw material
  1052
  shortages started with the Korean crisis and American stockpiling,"
  and so on. That is the Treasury bulletin. The Economic Survey, also I suppose a Treasury publication, states in paragraph 46:
  "Industrial demand for raw materials everywhere was already high and rising in the summer of 1950, and even before re-armament world consumption of a number of commodities was outstripping production."
  Lastly, the Lord President of the Council as he then was, now the Foreign Secretary, in a broadcast on 21st October, 1950, stated:
  "At the beginning of the summer it looked as if there was going to be an easing of prices."
  It is really high time that the Government made up their minds which of these horses to run. The statements have the great advantage, of course, that we can be sure one is right because they are entirely contradictory. It is hardly surprising that when the same Department, and that the Treasury, speaks with two voices about the same subject, the results are so disastrous for the national economy.
  I suppose that a fair analysis of rising prices would divide the subject into three phases. The first phase, caused largely by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), showed that between the General Election of 1945 and his departure in November, 1947, there was a rise in retail prices from 148 to 167—about 13 per cent. I am using the London and Cambridge index figures. Secondly, largely as a result of imprudent financial administration, partly from the convertibility crisis and other pieces of inefficiency, we had to devalue the pound, so that the pound which used to buy four dollars worth of American cotton, after September, 1949, only bought about 2.80 dollars worth. So it was perfectly obvious that when the stocks of cotton were exhausted, the price of cotton goods, sheets, shirts and so on, had to go up, and the second phase in the rise of prices is directly attributable to devaluation. Do not let the Members of the Committee forget that, and let them see that members of the public remember it.
  In short, devaluation by a single act increased the cost of American imports by 44 per cent., and although I do not want to go into the reasons because they are elaborate and obvious, the cost of many

  1053
  sterling imports rose nearly by that amount owing to the competition felt from hard currency areas to whom these sterling imports became cheaper by reason of devaluation. That is the second phase. It is rather a grim fact that most of the prices up to date can be attributed to either the first or the second phase. They have already begun to feel the effects, no doubt, of the Korean war and the American re-armament and strategic stockpiling, and that is the third phase.
  Unfortunately it is true that we have not yet felt anything like the full rise in prices, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been quite frank about it. Some economists think that the rise in prices and the cost of living will reach the staggering increase of 15 per cent. during 1951. I feel that that is quite probably an over-estimate. I prefer to quote the official figures coming from the Economic Survey, which are to be found on page 43. It states:
  "Although the volume of personal consumption in real terms will have to decline, the money value of goods and services available for consumers to buy may, as shown in Table 24, increase by about £600 million between the two years, mainly because of the rise in import prices."
  That means in rather less genteel language that the consumer will have to pay £600 million more for a slightly smaller volume of commodities. I do not agree with this figure either. I think that the truth will probably lie somewhere between the two. This is the kind of price we have to pay for the improvement in our balance of payments.
  Finally, it is necessary to state that all through these three phases there runs the same theme, that Government expenditure has been too high in relation to the national resources, and now that we are faced with a national emergency that fact is being brought home to us by what the Chancellor himself describes as a "harsh and unpopular Budget." Before I turn to the specific taxes and the Chancellor's method of raising revenue to meet our emergency, I feel that I must say a word about the balance of payments.
  As we all know, our balance of payment problem was greatly eased during 1950, partly by the running down of stocks to which I have referred, but in the main due to the spectacular increase in our invisible exports. Our invisible
  1054
  exports rose by about £200 million to £382 million. The largest contributions to this result were from the trading profits of British-owned concerns in the production of such commodities as wool, rubber and tin. These earnings are an unpleasant reminder of how much our economy depends upon the devotion to duty of those who are producing these commodities under very hard conditions in a country like Malaya. The White Paper deals with the increase in invisible exports under the heading of "Athis." Other invisible exports have risen from £209 million to £315 million. It would be interesting to know how much of this is oil—I think that probably a great part is—and how much is due to commerce-banking, insurance and all the other invisible exports of which we know the Government do not approve.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: Nonsense.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I suppose that they shut down the Liverpool Cotton Exchange in order to improve our invisible exports. The result, as I have said, is a favourable balance of payments of £229 million.
  I must now worry the Committee by going into some further technicalities, because there is a very important point which now emerges, and it relates to sterling liabilities. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) bitterly complains of the phrase "sterling balances," and I think we all think he is right. They are debts, and the more straightforward description from our point of view is that they are sterling liabilities.
  During the last year our sterling liabilities to non-sterling countries other than dollar countries decreased by £207 million. The reason for that was that the sterling area were heavy sellers of commodities to European countries, for example, and they obtained payment in sterling for their sales. This sterling was provided either by the European countries running down their sterling balances—and in this connection the term is the correct one—or by borrowing from Great Britain through the European Payments Union. At the time this was happening our sterling liabilities to the sterling area increased by £382 million.
  To summarise what these figures mean, it means that the increase in our gold

  1055
  and dollar reserves and in the favourable balance of the sterling area as a whole has been financed to the extent of £224 million by increasing our indebtedness to the sterling area of £224 million. I must at this point thank the Chancellor for Tables 12, 13, and 14 in the Balance of Payments White Paper, and, for that matter, the Board of Trade for their extra figures on page 35 of their Report. These Tables were added at my request, and although most hon. Members and I are pretty punch-drunk with statistics by now, they have led to an easier comprehension of the tangled pattern and kaleidoscope of these trade figures.
  Finally, although I refer with satisfaction to the results of 1950; the first two or three months of 1951 show a marked deterioration in our balance of trade, and it makes one look with some apprehension to the rest of the year, although I hope it is too gloomy to base precise estimates on the results of only three months.
  With that background I turn more specifically to the Chancellor's estimates of the inflationary gap and his method for closing it. I was frankly surprised to find that he estimated the inflationary gap at only £150 million. He added £19 million this year for old age pensions, making the total amount which he wished to raise about £170 million. I was relieved to find the official estimate as low as that, and I am not going to be too critical of the calculations which he made in reducing the gap to this particular dimension.
  The Chancellor succeeded in the course of his otherwise lucid speech of surrounding this matter of the inflationary gap with a kind of Whitehall nimbus, and I fear the Committee have become lulled into a sort of feeling that this inflationary gap of £150 million was, in fact, bridged and that that meant there would be no further rise in prices. I know the right hon. Gentleman is scrupulously fair in these matters. I think that I could even quote his words, but that is the impression which got round. Of course, it does not mean anything of the sort. The Chancellor said himself that the object of closing the gap was not to add further to the inevitable rise in prices which other causes would bring about.
  1056
  There are, of course, four main sources from which he proposed to draw the necessary revenue and the Petrol Tax is the first. This increase was described by the Chancellor as long overdue, a most curious piece of phraseology for the Chancellor to use about a tax, as if the object of the nation was to see that every tax was as high as possible as soon as possible. I think any sensible man, including unrepentant Tories like myself, hold the view that every tax should be as low as possible for as long as possible—or am I wrong? The defence for this tax is another bit of special pleading. I do not know what it has got to do with the matter, but he said that the price of petrol here was still considerably below what it is on the Continent. I do not think we can attach much weight to that argument. We shall have to examine during the Finance Bill the influence of this tax and its effects on the cost of production, the cost of distribution and the cost of living, but this is not the moment to go into those details.
  The second main source of revenue is an increase in the Profits Tax. The Chancellor pointed to the increased dividends paid lately and gave a percentage by which dividends had been increased since the middle of last year. He did not, of course, give details of the increased capital on which these increases in dividend had been made. It would have been fairer if he had done so. I dare say the figures are difficult to get, but, apart from that, that is what he based some of his support for this Profits Tax upon. There are two very bad features of this Tax. The first is that it inevitably decreases, and I think almost exactly by the same amount, what are known as private savings, which are the amount of the retained profits by companies. The ordinary shareholders—I am extremely surprised that such an expression was got over without any jeers from hon. Members opposite; and I should like to remind the Committee that the average holding as to 99 per cent. of the stockholdings in general stock companies is under £400 a person—have got to be looked after.
  Sir Richard Acland: There is rather a different figure about averages. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the average holding, but what

  1057
  is the size of the holdings within which the average share is held?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I am very glad that the hon. Member is continuing the argument. If he likes to go into this matter, he will find that nine-tenths of the total holdings are in sums under about £500, and when we get to the final one-tenth we get into much larger holdings.
  As I said, the ordinary shareholders have to be looked after like any other section of the population. Many of them are living in retirement or old age on the dividends of their ordinary shares, and if there is to be an increased tax on distributed profits by and large in this phase of our economy, the tax will be paid at the expense of the amount of money retained in the business. We may not applaud that, but it is nevertheless a fact, and it is true particularly of the companies who are distributing only a small proportion of their total earnings. Of course, the effect on companies which are expanding their businesses, where the margin is much smaller, will be quite different. This tax on distributed profits will be a tax on the companies' vitality and their ability to expand, because it will limit their ability to raise capital. That is one bad feature, and the other, of course, is that as a deflationary weapon it is worse than useless, because the amount of the tax will be upset by a decrease in private savings.
  I must say one word about Purchase Tax. We on these benches recognise that there is very little opportunity of manœuvre and we could not expect a great reduction in the Purchase Tax. Today I must recall my satisfaction that the Treasury Bench have taken the advice which we gave in the Finance Bill debates last year. They have eliminated from the Purchase Tax a number of household necessities—not all of them—and I think that that is a reform which was long overdue. We pressed this last year and got no result.
  The next source of revenue is, of course, the raising of the Income Tax. Here, again, it was an omission from the Chancellor's argument that if £75 million is raised by an increase in the Income Tax, it cannot be entirely credited as closing the inflationary gap, because part of it will be offset by a reduction in personal saving. On these Benches we think he was absolutely right in lightening
  1058
  the burden for those with family responsibilities, and that part of his proposals will receive our support.
  I come to further compliments to the Chancellor and congratulate him on the extraordinarily understanding way in which he has been reading Conservative literature. He has done two wise things, and they are wise because they are Conservative ideas. I should like to let the House into a secret. It is perhaps a little sour for me to have to do so, because I should like to tell the Committee that almost exactly the same scheme as he has now put forward about old age pensioners was to be part of the Conservative manifesto at the next General Election. Now, instead of it being in ours, it will be in his. I do not mind, because for a long time we thought that these old age pensions ought to be adjusted, particularly with a view to inducing people to lengthen their working days and retire later in life. On this matter we would have produced some variation in the scheme which I think would have made it even better and more scientific.
  I want to conclude by saying that the outstanding feature of this Budget is that, owing to the management of our affairs during the last six years, the Chancellor found himself with no liberty of manœuvre. He has made a genuine attempt to spread the burdens as widely as he can, but in this vale of tears it still remains true that re-armament is going to be paid for by rising prices. He has made this Budget in the knowledge that wages and salaries are going to lag behind increases in prices. Here, again, is one of those unpleasant truths which no amount of juggling with the figures or of Socialist theory can get rid of. The burdens are going to fall mainly upon those who are least able to bear them. As the population becomes aware that the policy of re-armament is to be financed and paid for by rising prices, while at the same time there are exhortations to keep wages and salaries stable, our people will use far harsher terms about the Chancellor's Budget than even he used about it himself on the radio last night.
  Mr. Collick: That is a poor show, a shockingly poor show.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I should like to offer our warm and most sincere congratulations to the Chancellor

  1059
  of the Exchequer upon his Budget statement of yesterday. I have listened to many a Budget statement. I remember listening, from another place rather than from the Floor of this Chamber, to the famous Budget statement of 1909. Never in my experience has there been such a chorus of congratulation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as the new Chancellor has received during these two days. They are thoroughly deserved, because the Budget speech was a personal triumph. It was well expressed, well put together, well constructed. It was lucid and clear, and very easy for us all to follow.
  It looks to me as if this Budget, if not very well received outside, has been followed by a sense at any rate of relief in many quarters, at the form which it has taken. I do not gather that there has been very strong criticism from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton). There was no mention in the Budget of a capital levy or of any tax upon capital increases, nor were there any harsh Income Tax proposals.
  The Chancellor has entered upon his new career at a very unfortunate moment. The truth is that this country is now upon a war footing, and has been so since last June. We have now to take measures which are truly war measures rather than peace measures. The Chancellor therefore has to face an expenditure this year of no less a sum than £4,197 million, an astronomical figure compared with the figures to which we were accustomed before the war. He has to find it at a time when taxation is already so high that in some directions it has reached not only saturation point but the point of diminishing returns.
  The Chancellor expects to receive in the coming year less revenue from tobacco and from intoxicants of all kinds. He cannot look there for any increase to meet his increased expenditure, so he has to find the money when there is greater inflationary pressure than we have previously experienced. That pressure is likely to increase in the future because of the fewer consumption goods, and because there will be rising incomes both of wages and of salaries.
  There is one comment I feel I ought to make both upon the Economic Survey and on the statement made yesterday by
  1060
  the right hon. Gentleman. With what I might call "the economic preamble" to his speech everybody must agree, but I wish that he and the Economic Survey had laid greater emphasis upon the undoubted fact that fewer consumption goods will be available and that they will go on diminishing in the coming year unless something very extraordinary happens.
  Mr. Gaitskell Mr. Gaitskell indicated assent.
  Mr. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman agrees with that. If the difficulty could be overcome by increased production that would be encouraging, but it is admitted that the amount of increased production that he can get will not meet all that is required. We have had to increase in quantity our exports to get the same volume as we were getting before devaluation. That increase had to come from stock which would otherwise have been home consumption goods.
  In addition to that, there has been a further call for more of those goods to meet rocketing world prices, and to meet stockpiling at home, when prices have already rocketed and when our stocks were running down. As the right hon. Member for Aldershot has pointed out, the time will come when those goods will have to be replaced at much higher prices. That replacement can only be met by again reducing the goods for home consumption. Finally, world needs are growing. There are 1,000 million more mouths to feed every year. The means for satisfying that demand are now to be diverted to the production of armaments and implements of defence.
  So far, very little has been diverted, either as material or as labour, towards the full amount that will be required for armaments. We are only in the planning stage at the moment. When the plans come to full fruition as the years go on—and certainly next year—the pressure will be felt all the greater and the amount left for us will, therefore, be less. Let us take that fact in conjunction with another new fact. A change has come about with the new Chancellor, since Sir Stafford Cripps, whose absence we all regret, has gone. There is no longer a wage freeze. That has rightly disappeared. We owe a deep debt of gratitude to the trade union leaders and the men in industry for showing, at the request of the

  1061
  previous Chancellor of the Exchequer, so much restraint throughout those years. That restraint put a tremendous strain upon them. Prices were rising, but they were asked to keep their wages at a low point.
  It is right that they should now get increased wages to go with increased costs. That is the sound way. I do not like subsidies. I much prefer wages to follow as the costs increase. It does not seem to me right that we should keep down wages and then bribe the men to keep quiet by making it up out of taxation. It is much better to allow men to have a proper wage, so that they can maintain their own standards of living.
  We must not forget the class which cannot increase its income, not only the old age pensioners but other pensioners. The old age pensioners are not the only ones who suffer. There is another great body, whom we do not usually call pensioners, of people who are living upon pensions. Take teachers, for example. One is especially sorry for those who retired before the war, when salaries were much lower. Many of them are still alive and are having to live upon what was enough in those days, but certainly is not enough now. I will quote what was said to me by a very honoured colleague of the right hon. Gentleman. His brother had worked hard and honourably all his life and, thinking that he and his wife would be safe enough, he retired upon pension some time ago. Finding that his pension was now not enough, he had written to his brother saying, "It seems to me that we have both lived too long." That is one of the most strikingly pathetic statements I have ever heard. Something ought to be done to meet the hardships of these people.
  I am glad that the Chancellor has come to the assistance of the old age pensioners. So far as it goes, it is all to the good. I am glad that there was an intelligent anticipation of what might be put forward from this side of the Committee. I would tell the Chancellor that I much prefer our proposal, which is that the pensions should be linked closely with the cost of living so that what was regarded as the correct pension years ago when the cost of living was low, would now be raised and the same standard maintained today. Pensioners should have that as of right and should not have to go to
  1062
  the National Assistance Board to appeal and to explain their position. I believe that that must come about at some time or other.
  It is right that the Chancellor should have budgeted for a surplus. My only doubt is whether he has provided enough. I know it is difficult to determine what should be the precise figure and I realise that had he been tougher, he might have done more harm. Therefore, I cannot really quarrel with the figure which the Chancellor has in mind, and I would merely say that I have some doubt as to whether it is enough. Like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot, I wish that more had been said about production both in the Economic Survey and by the Chancellor. The only answer to inflationary pressure is production, more production and still more production. To increase production, will the right hon. Gentleman ask his colleagues in the Government to do all they can to remove the restrictive practices on both sides of industry which are hindering production?
  We are face to face with tremendous inflationary pressure, and the Chancellor, who is a sound economist, knows that the one way this can be met is by increasing our production. He should do whatever he can to encourage that and to do away with the hampering restrictions on both sides of industry, on the side of the employers, with price rings, and so on, just as much as on the side of the employees. I realise that everything will depend upon the supply of raw materials. It is most unfortunate that this should come at a time when there is a call from all the free countries for the very raw materials of which we are short. This has created the extra shortage. Without wool, zinc, rubber, sulphur, tin, and so on, the whole of our structure falls to the ground and we shall not be able to produce anything like the quantity of export goods which we need to maintain our imports even of food.
  I should have liked to hear more from the Chancellor about the cutting down of expenditure. Very rightly, the Chancellor has challenged us on this, saying that if we can suggest some way of cutting down expenditure it is only right that we should put it forward. He said that we should be as specific as we can. For many years I

  1063
  have not deviated in this matter. One cannot be so precise as to say "Cut that." Only Government Departments can provide the answers to the principles which I should follow. I would ask them what there is that can be postponed at the moment without doing irretrievable harm. Some things cannot be postponed but must be done and done now. However, I am sure that we are trying to do too much at the same moment, and that it puts a burden upon our shoulders which it is almost impossible for us to bear.
  As an illustration, let us take a matter about which I was very anxious and which has now become general throughout the country, the feeding of school children. Many hon. Members will remember the report that I had to make about my own country of Wales. The best and healthiest children there, were those in the Rhondda who were given their midday meal because their parents were unemployed. That is the kind of thing that we must continue. But surely the Government can postpone great Government buildings or suggest that new county council buildings might be postponed for a while until we are in a better position. Cannot the Chancellor say to each Department, "Go through all your proposals and cut out for the time being all those things which can be postponed until we are through the present difficulty"?
  The Chancellor is pursuing much the same attitude as that with private persons and firms, for he is asking them to cut down their expenditure. That is really what is behind the postponement, for the time being at any rate, of the initial allowance of 40 per cent. on machinery and plant and 10 per cent. on buildings. Private persons and firms are thus discouraged from starting new buildings. There is a real danger in this because it may affect the production which we so badly need. Nevertheless the Chancellor is going out of his way to discourage the provision of new machinery, plant and buildings. If he is asking us as individuals to do that, cannot he ask his colleagues in the Government to follow the same rule? It is a good rule to follow, and by means of it a large part of our expenditure could be saved for the time being.
  1064
  This is a Budget of some £4,000 million. I believe that the total number of civil servants and local government employees is about 2,300,000; if that is not correct, it is at any rate a vast figure. Is no waste going on among all these public servants? We experience things ourselves from time to time which can mean nothing else but waste. Is enough being done today to avoid that waste?
  I said at the outset that we are really on a war footing and that we are dealing with difficulties to which we have not been accustomed except in time of war. May I ask the Chancellor whether, in those circumstances, it would not be wise, and for the benefit of the whole country, to establish what we had in time of war, a Select Committee of the House to inquire into national expenditure, which then did great good? The mere fact that it was in existence made people who, otherwise, would have been extravagant, much more careful about what they were doing.
  To turn to the changes suggested by the Chancellor, Profits Tax, as such, is a bad tax because it is a penalty upon good management and careful husbandry. However, the Chancellor is quite justified in proposing it at present for two reasons. One is that profits have gone up enormously during the last two or three years due, to a considerable extent, to the wage freeze agreed upon voluntarily by the workers which enabled large profits to be made by their employers. Therefore, it is only right, when the Chancellor wants money as badly as he needs it today to meet expenditure, that he should turn to that tax. Secondly, it is right that he should put a further tax on distributed profits, to stop inflation. For those two reasons the Chancellor was right. It should only be a temporary tax, however, since it may well be a penalty upon good and proper management.
  For the same reason there is justification for increasing the Purchase Tax. I quite agree with the tax on motor cars, for they will be sold whatever the price may be, even if it is double. The tax will not stop their manufacture, since those who need them must have them. Moreover, Purchase Tax upon electrical appliances was badly needed. I have not understood the double policy pursued with regard to electricity. There has never been enough to go round; we have

  1065
  to face cuts in electricity from time to time, yet every day in the papers we see efforts made to push the sales of electricity. I think the tax which has been put on will ensure that this does not get out of hand. The only tax I have doubt about is the petrol tax. The cost of transport has gone up already so much and this is bound to add to it. There is no other tax which has its effect so quickly upon increasing costs and transport charges. As soon as this is put on it will be reflected in increased costs and, therefore, in increased prices.
  I do not want to enter into further detail now. On the whole, I think the Chancellor has done extraordinarily well in face of his difficulties. He means to be fair, he certainly means to be honest, and he is conscientious. I admired, as I am sure the whole Committee did, his fine peroration. The right hon. Gentleman is imbued with a high sense of duty and his peroration, if I may say so, rang true throughout. We are face to face with tremendous difficulties. Our whole future is in danger and we want our liberty. It is beyond all price. We are all called upon, in order to defend that liberty, to make our sacrifices. I believe that everyone in the country is prepared to make all the sacrifices possible to maintain the proud position which we have inherited and which we all want to see handed on to those who follow.
  Mr. Snow: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider that the Select Committee on National Expenditure, if resuscitated, would operate successfully in conditions of party, as opposed to a Coalition Government?
  Mr. Davies: I do not see why it should not, because it would be composed of hon. Members from all sides of the House. The mere fact that it was in existence would have an effect straight away.
  5.26 p.m.
  Mr. Benson: Before I congratulate the Chancellor, I would like to deal with the point regarding the Select Committee on National Expenditure. It did extremely valuable work during the war and it was for that reason that the Estimates Committee has since taken over its work. The Estimates Committee is doing exactly the same work—
  Mr. C. Davies: No.
  Mr. Benson: It goes right to the spot in investigating the actual activities of Government Departments. Its function is much the same as that of the old Committee on National Expenditure and is quite different from that of the Public Accounts Committee.
  In addition to congratulating the Chancellor on his brilliant speech, I should also like to congratulate him on the extreme ingenuity of his Budget. Faced with an increase in expenditure of £931 million in the coming year, managing to meet that problem with an increase of taxation in the coming year amounting to only £139 million, and managing to do that within the scope and according to the canons of orthodox taxation is a great achievement. Because the achievement has been so great, the criticism we have had so far has been mild.
  There is always something in a Budget that everyone can criticise. Burke's old tag about "to tax and to please" is as true now as it was when he uttered it. But there has been little effective criticism today from the Opposition spokesman and I would hardly call the remarks of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) criticism at all, since I agree with so much of what he said.
  Mr. C. Davies: The hon. Member usually does.
  Mr. Benson: The fact that we have been able to meet this enormous increase in expenditure with a Budget which I would hardly describe as harsh or savage, is a tribute not merely to the Chancellor but to the extraordinary resilience and vitality of this country, and also to the part that six years of Labour policy has played in that.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery mentioned that our standard of living would drop. Inevitably it must. We are to spend considerable sums on armaments, whether we like it or not, and the probability of any increase in production is remote because of the appalling difficulties in regard to raw materials. During the last two years we have had a rate of productivity in this country which has never before been equalled, but that cannot continue if there is a world shortage of all raw materials required for our industry. Rearmament and war have produced that world shortage.

  1067
  The criticism by the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) was really to recount all the difficulties and problems into which this country, along with most other countries, has run in the last five or six years and to dump them on the doorstep of the Labour Government as if the Labour Government were responsible. The mere fact that we have met these difficulties and have come through so well is, I repeat, a credit, and not a debit, of Labour Government policy.
  The right hon. Member made certain suggestions with regard to possible economies. So did the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, but he was very wise not to specify. The right hon. Member for Aldershot, however, did so. He suggested that by cutting down our Civil Service, our investigators and our administrators, we could save £50 million. If we assume that the average salary of a civil servant of the type to be cut is £500 a year, that would mean cutting our Civil Service by 25 per cent. Does anybody seriously propose that we could do that? What we have done for the last year or two has been to make a steady decrease in numbers, and last year there was a reduction of 20,000, but to propose that we could cut the Civil Service by 25 per cent. is too fantastic for words. That, however, is what would have to be done if we were to save £50 million on administration.
  I was rather puzzled when the right hon. Member, in practically his next sentence, suggested that there must inevitably be extravagance in arms production and that, therefore, we needed more inspection. The right hon. Member would cut down on civil servants and inspectors in order to save in one direction, but would increase them to make savings elsewhere. How he can extricate himself from that dilemma, I do not know.
  There is no machine that works with 100 per cent. efficiency, and there never can be. Inevitably, there must be waste and extravagance in a matter of spending £3,000 or £4,000 million a year. We have, however, two very effective and powerful Committees as servants of the House—the Public Accounts Committee and the Estimates Committee, the latter being now really a committee on national expenditure—sitting regularly and con-
  1068
  tinuously. The Public Accounts Committee have at their disposal the whole of the information available as the result of the audit by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who sits with the Public Accounts Committee, and every year the whole of the accounts, or at any rate the major ones, are gone through. From time to time we find an occasional extravagance—we always shall—but we never turn up anything which is sufficiently large to have the remotest influence upon taxation. The idea that we can save by discovering some fantastic extravagances or waste, that we can slash the Civil Service in sufficient numbers to produce any effect upon taxation, may be perfectly all right from a platform, but—
  Sir Arthur Salter: I do not want to contest the hon. Member's argument, but surely, on his own figures, has he not a little over-stated the proportion of the reduction in the Civil Service that would be required to give the saving referred to? The hon. Member gave the figure of £500 as the average income of civil servants. In order to effect the saving, would this mean a reduction of 100,000 in the Civil Service? The number of non-industrial civil servants is, I believe, between 600,000 and 700,000.
  Mr. Benson: The right hon. Member is quite wrong. The number of non-industrial civil servants is something like between 420,000 and 440,000. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Post Office?"] In the 600,000 or 700,000 there are the Post Office—I think I am correct; I looked at the figures yesterday. A saving of £50 million, therefore, would involve, quite definitely, a cut of 25 per cent.
  Mr. David Eccles: If we were to dispense with, say, 20,000 civil servants, we should have less rent to pay and less expenditure on stationery and all other equipment. There would be a saving of more than merely salaries.
  Mr. Benson: We have dispensed with 20,000 civil servants in the last 12 months, There would be subsidiary savings by dispensing with their services, but the broad fact remains that we have to make a cut of something like the kind I have mentioned before we could get the savings suggested by the right hon. Member for Aldershot.

  1069
  I was not quite sure what the right hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir A. Salter) said in reply to an aside from the right hon. Gentleman about the date on which he wrote the letter suggesting that there should be a purchase of raw materials.
  Sir A. Salter: I said "last summer." I do not have the exact date.
  An Hon. Member: August.
  Mr. Benson: The major trouble with regard to a shortage of raw materials is, of course, the Korean war. The right hon. Member for Aldershot himself said that prior to that war, exporters were getting worried about whether they would be able to maintain their markets; there was the possibility of a recession. The time when there is a possibility of a recession is not the time to buy raw materials. The fact that the Government tended to hold off in the early part of the year was good commercial practice. The upsetting of the whole of our calculations by the completely unexpected invasion of North Korea is nothing for which the Government can be blamed, and for the Opposition to attempt to lay that blame upon them for the shortage is merely to rest upon the crudest of hindsight.
  Sir A. Salter: The time when I wrote was, I think, in August; certainly it was in the summer, after the Korean war. Would the hon. Member contest that it would have been a good thing to do what I then strongly urged: namely, to prevent stocks from running down and, on the contrary, to stockpile?
  Mr. Benson: It certainly would have been a good thing, but whether it was physically possible is a matter which I cannot answer. That question must be asked of the appropriate Government Departments.
  A major argument used by the right hon. Member for Aldershot was the disastrous effect of the high level of taxation. He said, I think, that taxes are so high that there is nothing left for emergency. A leading article in "The Times" this morning makes exactly the same point. In referring to the increase of 6d. upon the Income Tax, it says that an essential margin of increase has been relinquished for war purposes. That is a most extraordinary argument and it completely loses sight of realities.
  1070
  If war comes, taxation and finance immediately become of secondary importance. No matter whether your taxation system is good or bad; no matter whether your tax level is high or low, when the war starts it has no influence whatever upon the prosecution of war today. What do matter in the prosecution of war are the realities, and the realities are these, that the Government take possession of war materials, it directs labour, it turns production to the aims it requires and it leaves the balance for civilian consumption. It takes what it wants and leaves the rest.
  There is only one limit in war to what a Government can take and that has nothing to do with finance. The limit is the difference between maximum production and the minimum standard of living that it can impose upon the community. Those are the things that control and fix the amount the Government can take. Finance may be important, not for the prosecution of war, not for the facilitation of obtaining raw materials and armaments, but for the after effects. For example, in the 1914–18 war every conceivable practical and theoretical blunder was made in the financing of that war. Did it hamper the Government in war production? Not a scrap. The only effect was that we ended the war with a National Debt bearing something like 6 per cent. per annum interest.
  In the last war the process of getting arms and equipment was exactly the same as in the first war. The Government took what it required and left the balance to the civilian consumer, but, as a result of the experience in finance of the first war, very few blunders were made and finance was handled very skilfully. We ended the war, not with an interest of 6 per cent. on the National Debt, but with an interest of 2 per cent. That was the influence of finance upon war, not upon prosecution of war, but on the aftermath of the war in the cost of the Debt.
  There is something of the same element in re-armament in peace-time. The reality is that total production is the upper limit and the lower limit of what the Government can get is not a standard of living which it imposes upon the community but a standard of living which the com-

  1071
  munity will accept. The difference between war-time re-armament and peacetime re-armament is that in peace-time the Government, instead of taking, has to persuade, and it can persuade the community in so far as the community is seized of the importance of re-armament. Obviously, they are far less tolerant of heavy taxation in peace-time than in wartime.
  Hon. Members opposite are in the habit of suggesting that our taxation, which runs, say, between 35 per cent. and 40 per cent. of our national income, is a dead burden on the community. It is nothing of the kind. The bulk of that taxation returns to the community in transfer payments. At present something Hike £2,500 million out of the £4,000 million raised returns in the form of transfer payments and redistribution of income and is not a diminution of the income of the consumer. There is one part which is a real diminution of consumption and that is the part spent on goods and services required by the Government themselves. We have the figures for 1950 and an estimate for 1951.
  Take the 1950 figures, which are for the calendar year. We find that in the White Paper on National Income and Expenditure, goods and services required by the Government in 1950 amounted to just under £1,500 million. That was a burden on community consumption. There were indirect advantages, but it was a direct burden. Since we are discussing the question of armaments, we must split up that £1,500 million. Something like £780 million were for armaments. The burden of general administration was £700 million, which was approximately 6 per cent. of our national income.
  It is rather interesting to make a comparison with 1938. In 1938 the demand for goods and services was somewhat over £400 million and the expenditure on armaments was also something over £200 million, leaving £200 million as the burden of general national administration. That was 4 per cent. of our national income. What has happened in the meantime has been that the burden of administration has increased from 4 per cent. of our national income to 6 per cent. of our national income. In other words, there has been an increase of 2 per cent. on the burden on our national income.
  1072
  Hon. Members know that the complexity of government has grown enormously and the cost of that is represented by the increase of 2 per cent. on the national income.
  So far as our ability to fight and to re-arm despite that growth of the real Government burden of 2 per cent., we still have left a community which has a far higher production, a higher standard of living, and a far higher rate of industrial investment. We are far more effective as a fighting organisation now than we were in 1938. There is not a shred of evidence to show that Government financial policy in the last six years has in any way militated against our pulling our weight if we have to.
  I noticed that last night the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said that taxation had clogged and hindered development. As evidence of that, he said that although we had a great increase in production, it was not as great as the increase in production of the United States. That is perfectly true. Our annual growth of production is nothing like that of the United States and probably never will be, but it has been a great deal higher under the Labour Government from 1945 to 1951 than it was under the Tory Government from 1931 to 1939.
  Mr. Kirkwood: There is no comparison.
  Mr. Benson: The bulk of the taxation is returned to the community and redistributed. Taxation is the method by which we have given the community social security. The burdens we are putting on them in this Budget and in future Budgets are burdens which, we hope, will bring them, not merely social security, but international security.
  5.50 p.m.
  Sir Stanley Holmes: For many years now it has been a pleasure to hear the speech the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) makes on these occasions. Apparently the right hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir A. Salter) disagreed with him three times, and I think that on that particular point I can leave the cut and thrust of debate to the hon. Member for Chesterfield and to the right hon. Gentleman who, I hope, will be catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, during the course of the next two or three days.

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  However, there is one point on which I want to speak against what the hon. Member for Chesterfield said. I refer to the Socialist Government's financial policy during the six years from 1945 to 1951. As a matter of fact, I intend to refer only to that policy from 1945 to 1947, because in my view the then Chancellor has added tremendously to the difficulties in which the present Chancellor is today.
  After the exhaustion of the war the country needed a period of rest for recovery and consolidation. It needed a "breather," but that was not granted; and that was due to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, it will be remembered, has had an extraordinary career in the last six years. In 1947 he gave up the Chancellorship as a result of an indiscretion. He was then given a Ministry of a sinecure nature, but although it was a sinecure the salary, which had always previously been £2,000 per year, was raised to £5,000 a year, an extraordinarily bad example of Government economy. He subsequently became the Minister of Local Government and Planning.
  I wish to try to show the Committee the difficulties into which he has put the present Chancellor, and into which he put Sir Stafford Cripps, by the policy which he carried out over those two years. As I say, the source of the country's present financial and economic arrangements was primarily his policy, and I will enumerate the present predicaments that are the legacy of his policy.
  The first is the scale of Government expenditure. The sceond is the load of taxation. The third is the curse of inflation and the acceptance of a "soft" pound. The fourth is the wilting of thrift. The fifth is the continuance of many wartime restrictions and rationing. The sixth, and by no means the least, is the general absence of reserves and elbow room in the national economy with which to face new and unforeseen demands such as the Chancellor now has to face.
  The hon. Member for Chesterfield referred to the 1914–18 war. I would point out to him that the country ended the recent war in a far weaker position than that in which it found itself in 1919.
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Benson: I quite agree, and that makes the way in which we have built it up all the more extraordinary.
  Sir S. Holmes: It is nice to have unanimity on one point at least. The country's external assets had been reduced by nearly £2,000 million between 1939 and 1945; and, with sterling claims exceeding £3,000 million against it in the shape of sterling balances, Britain had become the greatest debtor country in the world. The problem of adapting its economy to the new situation was more difficult than was that task to any of the older belligerents.
  At the end of the First World War—I may now be about to say something with which the hon. Member for Chesterfield will also agree—the authorities accepted as the basis of national recovery the task of re-establishing the security of the currency. Serious errors of judgment were made, and the disaster of a long period of deflation and unemployment followed. Yet it did not follow that the policy of attending to the value of the currency was wrong in principle. What is clear is that the under-estimation of the importance of the currency in 1945 has had untoward consequences.
  I repeat that conditions in 1945 were entirely different to those of 1919. In 1945 the entire world was short of goods, and a market for our exports was assured for years. In addition, our country had been knocked about much more in the Second World War than in the First World War. During the period of the Second World War, we had been unable to build any houses or do repairs or buy all sorts of commodities we wanted. The result was that when the war ended in 1945, work was assured for years and years, whatever Government had got into power. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
  I venture to say that the claim to have given full employment, which was really the only point made by the Prime Minister in his recent broadcast on behalf of his party, is without foundation or substance at all. Therefore, I venture to repeat that the under-estimating of the importance of the currency in 1945 and the following years has had untoward consequences, because at that time there was a latent inflation in the system, and no effective steps were taken to eliminate the redundancy of credit over and above the volume needed to support the level of prices at the end of the war. What happened? This redundancy caused the purchasing power of the pound to deteriorate, contributed powerfully to the

  1075
  devaluation of 1949, and has played its part in the present wave of price increases and labour unrest.
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member mentioned the present wave of labour unrest. Will he please compare the figures in the realm of industrial unrest since 1945 with the 250 million days lost in the 17 years from 1921 to 1938—years of bitter struggle, with industrial lockouts, and so on? These were typical of a Tory régime. We have had industrial peace, comparatively, since then.
  Sir S. Holmes: I said perfectly clearly and candidly that in 1921, as a result of the financial policy adopted after the war which ended in 1918, deflation and unemployment were caused. That unemployment reached its height in 1929, 1930 and 1931, when the Labour Party were in office.
  Mr. Pannell Mr. Pannell rose—
  The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew): Only one hon. Member may stand at a time.
  Sir S. Holmes: As I say, the 1945 Chancellor has to bear a big load of blame. He started the country racing along the wrong financial road in an unsound car with defective brakes, with the result that we find ourselves today in a difficult economic position. He did, however, have a piece of luck. He received from America and Canada loans and gifts of over £1,200 million, with which he could have put right the financial situation and improved conditions immensely for the Chancellor of today. But he utterly failed to do so. I was one of the hundred Members of this House who voted against the American Loan. I did so because I was sure that that loan would be misspent and I was right. That loan and the gifts from Canada were intended to be used for capital expenditure—
  Mr. Jenkins: Oh, no.
  Sir S. Holmes:—to rehabilitate our railways which had done a wonderful job during the war but which were worn to a thread; to rebuild factories, knocked to pieces, and to provide machinery to allow them to start again. Even where
  1076
  factories had not been touched during the war, they contained out-of-date machinery. America had gone ahead tremendously during those six war years, and it was to enable us to get up-to-date machinery so that we could compete in the export markets against other nations of the world that the Americans made us the loan. Instead, the then Chancellor said, "Let everybody have a good time," and he spent most of the money on food, films and tobacco.
  That is not all. In the last six years we have had a number of nationalisation Acts of Parliament and every one has been a failure. The coal mines became State property and today we have less coal and worse coal at a much higher price. In the old days before nationalisation, the railways used to pay a small dividend to their shareholders. Today under British Railways we have slower trains—
  Mr. Manuel: Oh, tosh!
  Sir S. Holmes:—less punctual trains and worse restaurant services; while every passenger has to pay higher fares and every industrialist has to pay higher freights which prevent him from competing in the export markets as he should be able to do. The Chancellor said yesterday that if Members wanted to suggest how expenditure could be saved, would they please do it in a practical way. I propose to try to do that. First, I take the National Health Service. That is costing the taxpayer £400 million a year. I would remind the Committee that when that scheme was brought in, it was said that the scheme would be self-supporting.
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. George Thomas: There was never anything said about that at all.
  Sir S. Holmes: I would remind the Committee that the first subsidy for the National Health Scheme was given towards the end of 1949, after Sir Stafford Cripps had issued his Economic Survey. After he had pleaded for economy, he had reluctantly, and I think disgustedly, to find a Supplementary Estimate of £100 million for the National Health Service. That has since gone up to £400 million

  1077
  a year. I congratulate the Chancellor on having won the first round in a certain battle. I hope he will renew his efforts and go into many other items in the National Health Service where the participants could very well pay. We all know everything about what is happening. We know perfectly well that while all of us want the people who cannot afford to pay for themselves to have everything they need in the way of medical service, there are very many people who are perfectly well able to pay for themselves and do not need the subsidy from the Treasury.
  Last night the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke about education. He said:
  "I must tell the Committee that the only Measures through which we could have achieved substantial savings would be either to raise the school entry age or reduce the school-leaving age. We did in fact discuss these but, I think rightly, turned them down."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 848.]
  I agree it is much more difficult today to do anything about altering the school-leaving age, but I would remind the Committee that in 1944 an agreed Education Act was passed through this House, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) was the Minister of Education. This Act provided for the school-leaving age to be raised by one year but it was not to come into force until the Minister of Education nominated the day. I have always felt that the late Miss Ellen Wilkinson made a mistake in choosing the very first possible day to bring it into operation. I am looking at it from the point of view of a Chancellor—
  Sir R. Acland: Which day would the hon. Member have selected?
  Sir S. Holmes: This has meant that the cost of education has gone up tremendously both on capital and current accounts, an increase in expenditure which the Treasury and the taxpayer might well have been spared in these difficult financial days.
  Money could also be saved on the railways. There is a redundancy in the staff at all grades. When one comes into any of our main-line stations, one finds twice as many porters waiting to take the luggage as there are passengers to offer it. That is a point which might be gone into; also whether these porters pay their proper share of Income Tax on their tips,
  1078
  because we want fair shares for all with regard to the payment of Income Tax.
  There are far too many men at the docks. One finds in several places at the docks that a service has been discontinued, but not a man has been discharged. Obviously, money is wasted in that way. I can give an illustration from a well-known town. At the railway station there was in the railway companies' days a station-master and three inspectors. One inspector looked after passengers, one after freight and the other after personnel. At the same station today the same station-master has 14 inspectors instead of three. In all the railway departments throughout the country there are too many clerks and too many officials. There is no doubt that money could be saved.
  The result of nearly six years of Socialist Government is that today we are the highest taxed and the worst-fed nation in the world. [HON. MEMBERS: "Look behind you."] I notice that the hon. Gentleman opposite who made the most noise and pointed at the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Teevan), does not look too bad himself. But hon. Members opposite should ask the housewives in their constituencies. The only hope for this country is hard work and rigid economy. The Government must not leave the economising to be done entirely by the people.
  There is a lot of discontent because post-war credits are not repaid. The payment was only expected to be deferred until after the war, but six years have passed and only a few elderly people have been repaid. In the old days, up to 1947, a man who owed any Income Tax and did not pay could not be fined. The process of the law could get the money from him, but he could not be fined. The Chancellor put that right in 1947 when a provision was introduced that three per cent. interest should be paid from three months after the time when the demand was made.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: On arrears of tax of over £1,000.
  Sir S. Holmes: I suggest that if the State is able to charge a taxpayer interest on what he owes, the Treasury should pay to the taxpayer interest on money which they owe to him. It would be a slight benefit to those who have post-war credits if they were given three per cent. interest on what was due.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Teevan: I rise to speak, for the first time in this Committee, with a great deal of trepidation and nervousness, and I must ask hon. Members to bear with me patiently.
  The fact is not disputed that we in this country are faced with a rising cost of living which has resulted in a most drastic reduction in the purchasing power of the £. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer freely and frankly admitted that yesterday, and it is further evidenced by the ever-growing demands for wage increases.
  There is one class in the community upon whom the present state of affairs bears most cruelly. The people in that class are the old age pensioners. Yesterday it was learned that the basic rate of pension for men aged 70 and for women aged 65 and over was to be increased from 26s. to 30s. for single persons and from 42s. to 50s. for married couples. I sincerely hope that the Chancellor will give due regard to a Motion tabled by the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke) and myself last night, regretting that no increase has been given to the non-contributory pensioner who at the moment gets the ridiculous sum of 10s. a week.
  I think I am voicing the opinion of the entire Committee, when I say that I welcome wholeheartedly the proposal itself. I welcome wholeheartedly the spirit behind the gesture, but I question whether it will provide an adequate solution of the problems facing the people today. I agree that a larger increase in the basic rate of pension would have been fraught with the gravest financial implications. I should like to make the tentative suggestion that possibly an increase in the rate of national assistance rather than in the basic pension rates might have been an alternative which would have been at once more beneficial to those pensioners who are in need and less burdensome to the community.
  However these increases are to apply, it is admitted by everyone that it was essential that the rates should be increased. The only question which it is necessary to ask is whether or not the increases will prove adequate. If the present inflationary spiral continues—and so far as one can see there is no prospect
  1080
  of anything else—within the next few months the real value of the 30s. pension will have diminished to such an extent that the old age pensioners will find themselves back in the same plight in which they were before the increase.
  I feel that I shall have the whole Committee with me again, when I say that there is only one sure way of making the pound buy more, and that is by a policy of retrenchment designed to cut out waste and extravagance. I applaud the Chancellor's decision, which was a courageous decision, to reduce the cost of the National Health Service, and I also applaud his further assurance that everything possible will be done to secure the utmost economy in Government expenditure. But may I, as a maiden speaker, and without wishing to be accused of being captious or carping, say that one has only to survey the events of recent months to wish that that policy had been carried out earlier? It is apparent to me, and I feel to many hon. Members, that there are many directions in which the need for increased economies must be emphasised.
  First, there is great need for increased efficiency, coupled with decreased expenditure, in certain of those industries which have been nationalised. As was said by the hon. Member for Harwich (Sir S. Holmes), on the staff of British Railways there are many thousands of redundant workers who could be employed in far more profitable and productive trades. Then there are huge numbers employed in the civil administration of this country. I give all due credit to the Government for the pruning that has taken place already in this direction, but surely far more could be done to release manpower from non-productive employment.
  There is no point in talking about economy unless it is practised. One can only hope that, in future, the estimates and plans of the Government will bear more relation to the extremely difficult financial position of this country. I feel sure that hon. Members on all sides of the Committee will agree that we must have no more errors involving millions of pounds, such as that which occurred recently in regard to the Festival Gardens, and that, until a policy of retrenchment and economy is pressed to the end, no one can hope to see the people of this country freed from this millstone of taxa-

  1081
  tion, which is crippling and ruinous in the extreme to every section of the community.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Hubbard: I feel extremely fortunate in having caught your eye, Sir Charles, at this moment, because it gives me the privilege of paying tribute to the speech of the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Teevan). Making one's maiden speech is an ordeal which we are all glad to survive, and the hon. Member approached his task today with the modesty which this House deserves, yet with confidence that was evidence of his own ability, and with a fairness which was appreciated on all sides of the House. I feel sure that I can speak for hon. Members in all parts of the House when I say that we shall welcome him to our debates, and, in fact, look forward to hearing his future contributions.
  May I say that, although I have been in this House for a mere seven years, I have never at any time known such a lack of criticism of a Budget from hon. Members opposite. I think that is the finest tribute which any Government could have—the fact that so little indeed has been said regarding the Budget introduced yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. Indeed, when I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), who opened today for the Opposition, claiming credit, in so far as the old age pensioners are concerned, that his party proposed this concession, I thought that that was the last word indicating the bankruptcy of the Conservative Party. The right hon. Gentleman had the cheek to put forward the claim that this proposal was to be included in his party's programme for the next election.
  I should like to refer now to something said by the hon. Member for Harwich (Sir S. Holmes), who mentioned the fact that today we were having less production. He spoke of worse coal and less coal. If that is to be typical of the approach of his party to what is the real basis of the economy of this country, then it is further evidence of bankruptcy on the part of hon. Members opposite. At this time of day, I thought everyone had fully realised that, while we have lost manpower in the mining industry, we have had increased produc-
  1082
  tion and, although that may seem a long way from the affairs of the Budget, the real wealth of any nation is still, as was stated by Adam Smith—and I cannot get past him—its power to produce. Everything associated with the Budget and the future of the country is tied up with our capacity to go on increasing our production.
  I think it is rather sad, however, at this time of the day, in regard to a set of men like the miners, who have done so much to increase the productivity of this country and the capacity for increased productivity in industries other than their own, that we should be told that all we have got is worse coal and less coal. That does not help us in any way. If the hon. Gentleman had shown the same spirit of fairness which has been shown elsewhere, he would have taken the opportunity to pay tribute to the people on whose efforts the future economy of this country is dependent.
  I never pose as an expert on financial matters, but maybe that is the reason I am so anxious to enter this debate today. I have been a victim of the financiers before, and perhaps it is because I am so anxious to avoid being their victim again in future that I wished to say a few words in this debate. When I heard the right hon. Gentleman opposite claim that part of their programme for the next Election was to improve the conditions of the old age pensioners, I could not help remembering that in 1938 I was one of those who came down here pleading with the Tory Government at that time to increase the pension of 10s. a week. I shall remember for all time what I was told, along with my fellow delegates who came to London representing the Scottish local authorities. It was that even to give an increase of 5s. in the economic crisis at that time would have brought this country to ruin and bankruptcy.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were in power, did not increase the pension in 1940; what they did do was to issue supplementary pensions, and it comes very ill from them today to claim that an increase in the pension was part of their programme for the next Election. As the honorary president of the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association, I know how little the old age pensioners of Scotland would depend upon any promises

  1083
  made by hon. Members opposite. Indeed, they have had their lessons in the past.
  Brigadier Clarke: What about the 10s. 0d. non-contributory pensions now?
  Mr. Hubbard: There is no such thing now. Any person in need of a pension receives a pension of 26s. a week, with supplementation above that if the pension is the only income. There is no single person today who is forced by this Government to live on 10s. a week. There is no single pensioner in the country today who has to live on even 26s. a week, nor any married couple who are asked to live on 42s. a week.
  Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: The White Paper issued yesterday shows that the cost of living has gone up in relation to the purchasing power of the pound by more than two to one, and, therefore. 26s. today are worth less than 13s. were worth before.
  Mr. Hubbard: If I were to go into the whole question of the increased cost of living, I should remind the House that a great deal of the ever-increasing cost of living is the result of increased prices charged by countries controlled by other than Socialist Governments. But to continue my argument, there is no person in this country today who has to live on 26s. a week and no couple who have to live on 42s. a week.
  Mr. Remnant: If he wishes, I will send the hon. Member a case tomorrow of a widow who is not entitled to a contributory pension but who is now under consideration for a 10s. 0d. non-contributory pension.
  Mr. Hubbard: I do not follow the point the hon. Member is making. I hope he will allow me to make my own case. I have been associated with the Old Age Pensioners' Association for many years, and I know the disappointment old age pensioners experienced from the Tory Government in the early 1940's. When the Widows and Old Age Pensions Bill was introduced in 1939, they were told they would receive an increase of 9s. 6d. in the pension and they found it was all tied up with the means test.
  Brigadier Clarke: Now it is a needs test.
  Mr. Hubbard: The hon. and gallant Member, who is always an entertainment
  1084
  to the House when he makes his own speech, might be courteous enough to stand up if he wishes to put a point to me. If anyone wants to interrupt but is not gentleman enough to stand up, then I refuse to give way. I will give way to any hon. Member who stands up.
  Brigadier Clarke: The hon. Member admits now that there is a needs test instead of a means test?
  Mr. Hubbard: I say that most old age pensioners will be grateful indeed to the Chancellor for the increase in old age pensions. I regret very much that the sum could not be more because, as hon. Members opposite have said, this increase has come after an increase in the cost of living. We have no assurance at all that there will not be other increases in the cost of living. As far as the old age pensioners are concerned, it will be a case of too little money chasing too dear goods. The old age pensioners are grateful for this improvement as something they could not have had from any other Government. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it ought to be possible to lay regulations from the National Assistance Board to become operative at once to add the increase now rather than wait until after the passing of the Finance Bill.
  There is a large number of old age pensioners still left outside. There are the cases of men between 65 and 70 and women between 60 and 65. Those people do not retire because they want a pension. They retire because they are no longer able to work. We ought to recognise that fact. Many of these people are compulsorily retired. If they could continue in industry there is already an inducement for them to do so. I am glad to say a better inducement has been provided by my right hon. Friend in his Budget. If they could continue to work they would do so, but many of these men are compelled to retire at 65 because they are physically incapable of carrying on any longer. All they have to face is another five years at a lower rate of pension, and that is not in keeping with the spirit shown in the Budget. That is also true as far as women are concerned.
  A large number of men retire because they are physically incapable of continuing work. Many retire because they are in unsuitable employment. If they were

  1085
  in other employment, they might go on for a few years. Many retire because it is the rule of their professional association or trade union. If we are to make a success of the effort to induce men and women to remain longer in industry, we must have co-operation from associations and trade unions to remove the rule that compels people to retire at an early age. Some policemen retire at a very early age. It is not compulsory in all cases but in many trade unions retirement at a certain age is compulsory.
  Many men who are incapable of working a full working week when they are 65 are capable of working part of the time. The increase in their earning capacity now from 20s. to 40s. a week without any interference with their pension is something which will be appreciated by these pensioners and which ought to be appreciated by everyone in the country. Old age pensioners today get too small a slice of the cake because the cake itself is too small. I agree with the Chancellor that if we are to have an ever-increasing number of pensioners retiring from production, we are going to have an ever larger number eating from a cake that will be getting smaller and smaller. Therefore, we must try to get these people to keep on working in industry for as long as possible.
  Today a man of 65 who is incapable of working a full week can work half of the hours ordinarily worked, and two elderly men can replace one man who is capable of doing a full week's work. There is a tremendous advantage in this, but I should like to stress to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that if that advantage is to be enjoyed by old people, we shall need the fullest co-operation of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. It should not be left to the haphazard chance of an old person finding work for himself. The Minister of Labour should find out where there is light work available. An old miner could look after pumps or engines, for instance. The Minister ought to prepare a list of that type of work that might be done by two elderly people sharing what would be a full week's work for a younger man.
  Future Budgets in this country will be determined by our ability to go on increasing productivity. Great tribute ought to be paid to the Government because
  1086
  we find ourselves free from Marshall Aid. No one expected that we should be free by this time. In all fairness the Government are entitled to some tribute, because the abilities of the present Chancellor and his predecessor have made that possible.
  There are many things about the Budget that we regret. I do not think there has ever been a time when there has been a good Budget. People always like to sink their teeth into it and argue about it. Lucky are those who can stick their own teeth into it. Much more fortunate are those who can sink their free teeth into it than those who now have to pay half the cost of their teeth. Every man and woman in this country feels quite capable of taking care of the Budget. They think they know far better than the Chancellor of the Exchequer what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. But if we are to look forward to better Budgets, something important must be faced, something for which everyone in this Committee must hope—
  Mr. Redmayne: A new Government.
  Mr. Hubbard: Something indeed more important than that.
  Brigadier Clarke: There is nothing more important.
  Mr. Hubbard: If we can avoid the dangers of war, that is much more important than anything. Whatever may be the colour of the Government that follows this one, so long as we are living in time of war or rumour of war we shall never have good Budgets. So long as we have to spend money on defence or rearmament we shall never have favourable Budgets. Therefore, the two things for which we must hope are, first, that the international situation will improve, and second, that full advantage will be taken of our capacity to produce. There are some signs that outside prices—wool, for instance—are falling rapidly. Whether the prospect of an election in Australia has anything to do with that, I do not know.
  Mr. Osborne: The price of wool is going back again. The slump has stopped already.
  Mr. William Ross: Do not be so cheerful about it.
  Mr. Hubbard: At any rate, we know that in a few weeks' time, if there is a change of Government in Australia, there will be a chance that the price will go down. There will be the possibility of imposing some control over it.
  Although many of us find in this Budget things that we do not like, and though we shall never live long enough to see the Budget of which we all approve completely, I should like to congratulate the Chancellor and to say, as one who represents old age pensioners, that we appreciate what has been done. All we hope is that it will be followed up in order that we may get the fullest possible advantage from those benefits which the Chancellor has made possible.
  6.42 p.m.
  Mr. E. Martin Smith: There are many points on which I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Mr. Hubbard). If I may most humbly offer him a piece of advice, may I ask him to do his best to keep politics away from the subject of old age pensioners? There are many on this side of the Committee who are just as sincere as he is in their wish to see the lot of old age pensioners improved.
  I should like to start in a friendly frame of mind by congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what I consider was a very lucid and clear statement. There was much in it with which we on this side of the Committee do not agree, but we are not afraid of giving credit where credit is due, and we give him credit for introducing many things with which we entirely agree and for which, indeed, we have been pressing for many months past.
  I congratulate him, for instance, on being able to persuade the Minister of National Insurance that it is possible to give this extra small help to the old age pensioners. I myself have been trying hard since I have been a Member of Parliament during the past year to yet some relief for them, and I am glad that some relief has now been given. I suggest that we should go further and deal with the Purchase Tax on wireless sets, for instance. To many old age pensioners a wireless set is the only joy they have left. Many of them will not now be able to afford a wireless set.
  Mr. Hubbard: They could not before.
  Mr. Martin Smith: I have tried to get the Postmaster-General to allow them to have free wireless licences—a small point but one of which perhaps the Chancellor will take note, and one which I know would be very much appreciated by every Member of this Committee. The Chancellor has brought in other changes with regard to spectacles and dentures which we realise are necessary, although if, unfortunately, he has not brought about the resignation of the Minister of Labour he will not have got the congratulations of the entire country.
  But surely there are further economies possible in the welfare State without in any way affecting the service which that welfare State gives. I can think of many myself—small ones, perhaps, but nevertheless economies which might have very definite effects. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Arthur Greenwood) said some time ago that pounds, shillings and pence were meaningless symbols, and after six years of Socialism he is nearer to being right than many of us thought he would be. Pounds, shillings and pence are becoming meaningless symbols because of the rise in the cost of living, and money is eventually becoming almost worthless. Nor do I believe that the Chancellor's present intentions will stop this inflation.
  Mr. Daines: The hon. Gentleman has made the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Arthur Greenwood) once said that pounds, shillings and pence were meaningless symbols and that he is beginning to think that is right. If the hon. Member has any symbols to spare, I am quite open to receive them.
  Mr. Martin Smith: I was addressing myself to the rise in the cost of living. I was surprised that the Chancellor did not refer to the necessity for increasing productivity. I was surprised that he did not say anything about the difficulty of getting raw materials, because it is vitally important to increase our productivity. The Economic Survey mentions a figure of 4 per cent. I think industry is quite capable of attaining more than a 4 per cent. increase.
  I believe that hon. Members opposite are becoming almost blinded by their self-congratulation on what they term their full-employment policy. I know that we

  1089
  have very little unemployment, and I am glad of that, but I do not believe everyone in this country is as fully employed today as he might well be. Given the chance, many people would change their jobs and become more productively employed. I am certain that there are many workers in nationalised industries who are redundant.
  We have got full employment, but people are not fully employed, and I am certain that, given the chance, private industry in this country could increase productivity by considerably more than 4 per cent. It has been made extremely difficult, however, by the Chancellor's increase in Income Tax and by his abolition of the depreciation allowance for machinery. This rise in Income Tax will discourage not only voluntary saving but the harder work and overtime which many people would like to do. Any of us who have anything at all to do with labour know that the one thing which is stopping many people working overtime is the present rate of taxation which does not make it worth their while. If taxation could have been reduced, I am certain that more work would have been done, and happily done; and, in fact, the Revenue would eventually have gained.
  The abolition of the depreciation allowance is a sheer menace. I appreciate that the Chancellor's intention was to encourage goods to go for export. What, in fact, he has done has been to hit trade in the worst possible way. The one thing he should do is to encourage the purchase of new machinery so that manufacturers keep their plant up to date. I have today received a Treasury paper called "Report to Women" which states that before the war productivity in British industry was improving every year and that since the war it improved even faster. It goes on to say:
  "Important among the causes of this increased productivity is new machinery."
  By preventing manufacturers from getting new machinery, the Chancellor is hindering productivity. He should realise that the depreciation allowance is merely something which offsets increased costs of replacements. I believe that the loss of this allowance will hinder the entire production of this country. I ask the Chancellor to reconsider this point before it is too late.
  Savings also are going to be discouraged by the increase in Income Tax.
  1090
  Personally, I do not mind so much about Profits Tax. It will hit certain people very hard indeed, but I would not mind the Profits Tax provided the Chancellor produced the corollary to that, which would be a decrease in the tax on undistributed profits. If he would agree to that, industry would be encouraged to plough back more money into their business. If they could not afford to buy new machinery or could not obtain new machinery, they would invest the money in savings, so that the Chancellor would get it back in that way. Merely to increase Profits Tax and not at the same time to decrease the tax on undistributed profits will not help at all; it is, in fact, inflationary.
  The Chancellor may be worried about wasteful capital expenditure, and in fact he said:
  "The recent rise in interest rates may also exercise some check on investment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 842.]
  Why does he not consider a rise in interest rates? It would not be very popular with many hon. Members, I know, but I believe such a rise is on the way. It would stop wasteful capital expenditure and I believe would do a great deal of good. The cheap money policy of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer is at best a joke; that policy has gone, and I believe that although it might make it more expensive for a Chancellor who had to consider future funding operations, he would gain tremendously from a rise in the interest rates. I believe such a rise is likely to come.
  Mr. Jenkins: I am not quite clear why the hon. Gentleman proposes a rise in interest rates in order to restrict capital expenditure and objects to the abolition of the initial allowances, which has exactly the same intention.
  Mr. Martin Smith: I do not believe it has. If we abolish the initial allowances, we hinder industry in their attempt to obtain new machinery. If we have the cheap money rates, we have today, we are encouraging some local authorities to borrow money at cheap rates—and they might not be so careful about economy as they would be if the rates were slightly higher. I believe the two things are quite different; they have very little to do with each other.

  1091
  After six years of Socialism, when every avenue has been explored for possibilities of taxation, it is difficult for the Chancellor to find any way whereby he can obtain extra revenue. I believe that taxation today is so high that the law of diminishing returns is beginning to operate. In my maiden speech last year, I warned the Chancellor about that and mentioned the case of beer.
  Mr. Houghton: There has been no sign of it since.
  Mr. Martin Smith: I said that the tax on beer was so high that less beer would be drunk and revenue would be decreased, which is precisely what has happened. I believe that what is true of beer is true in many other instances. The railways have put up fares to so high a level that many people have ceased to use them. They still have to run the trains but they do so at a bigger loss than would be the case if they reduced fares and encouraged people to travel by rail.
  I hope that some of the present proposals will help to close the inflationary gap, but I think it is extremely doubtful whether they will do so. The rise in the price of raw materials has so far reached only the wholesaler and has not yet reached the retailer. Perhaps it will take anything up to 18 months before it does. When that rise in retail prices is felt as a result of the rise in the prices of raw materials, I believe there will be demands for higher wages—and quite rightly. It will be very difficult to refuse those demands in many cases, and if we get them there will be further inflation.
  One of the gravest dangers today is that the present rate of taxation is so high that it is virtually inflationary in itself. A reduction in direct taxation would encourage production and would bring into the Treasury a larger revenue. I believe that is the only way in which we can stop inflation. It is no good trying to stem the flood by increasing taxation; that will never stop inflation. The only way to stop it is by a reduction in direct taxation.
  In my opinion there are many ways whereby we could bring about greater productivity in the country by decreasing some of the swollen staffs in these nationalised industries. There are many forms of economy about which we on this side of the Committee know. There is
  1092
  scarcely any Member of the Committee who does not know of cases, in Government Departments or elsewhere, where three men are doing work which could be done by two. We meet such cases day after day.
  Yesterday the Chancellor asked whether we could give him specific cases where we knew economies could be made. I will not weary the Committee by giving them now, but I will send to him many cases of which I know where economies could be made and which in the end would amount to a considerable sum. The Chancellor himself has all the facts and figures, and I ask him to look again to see whether he can find some way of saving in Government Departments and in the welfare State. I am convinced that he can make economies without in any way harming the welfare State or hindering Government business.
  Mr. Houghton: Is the hon. Gentleman equally anxious to dispense with the services of many directors in private industry who do no work at all?
  Mr. Martin Smith: I think that is far beside the point. In private industry, which is run by shareholders, if the shareholders dislike a director they can always say so. Unfortunately, we on this side of the Committee are not allowed to object to those directors whom we consider are doing nothing in the nationalised industries. If the Chancellor cannot derive some means of cutting out waste and if he insists on high taxation—as he is insisting—then in my view he has no hope whatsoever of stemming inflation. The only way in which it can be stemmed is by a reduction in taxation.
  6.57 p.m.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: When it was first suggested that the Budget and the Economic Survey should be considered together I felt very uneasy, and as a result of our experience I am convinced that it has proved a mistake. In my view there should be two separate debates, one dealing with the Budget alone and the other dealing with the Economic Survey. In the main I want to confine myself tonight to dealing with the Economic Survey because, quite apart from the question of die allocation of our finances, we should not have an opportunity of allocating them at all if the economic stability of the country were not as good as it is today.

  1093
  Before I proceed I want to make one or two observations on the Budget itself. I believe—and I think this will be proved to be the case in the country—that the Chancellor's statement on retirement pensions is out of harmony with the policy of the Trades Union Congress and with Co-operative and Labour Party policies. The Chancellor said:
  "It would be premature to alter the age in the national scheme on this occasion."
  May I emphasise those words—and I hope this will be re-echoed in the ears of all students of our social services:
  "… to alter the age in the national scheme on this occasion."
  For many years we have advocated pensions at 60. We were realists, and during the consideration of the Beveridge Report we compromised. When we put forward our evidence, we compromised and agreed on 65. I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer where this present move will stop. The Chancellor then said that the Government must ask employers and workers to
  "… give the most serious consideration to the possibility of postponing retirements."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 849.]
  All students of our economic affairs will be bound to agree to a very great extent with that statement, but in my view—and this is in keeping with our policy—it should be a matter for the person concerned to decide and there should be no penal effects as a result of that decision.
  The Trade Union Congress principles are the principles set forth in a Cooperative publication, and they say that National Insurance should be insurance and not a lottery. They state that, as all pay the same contributions, all should receive the same benefits. They state—and these are only the main principles upon which our policy was based and national legislation was introduced—that minimum benefits should be fixed at a scale below which no one should be expected to exist. Therefore, if it is right to fix a certain scale at 70, that should also apply to those at 65. In my view it will be found by administration—and it is only the future that will prove this—that by this method the greatest in need may get no increase at all. Therefore, I appeal to the whole Committee, and particularly to hon. Members on this side, to use their influence, between now and the time when the legislation is introduced, to induce a reconsideration of this proposal.
  1094
  I sat here sadly today when I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "Almost all his proposals for dealing with the old age pensioners will be put into the Conservative manifesto for the next General Election." I was sorry then to hear a number of relatively young Members laugh at that proposal. People in the country will not be laughing at proposals of that kind. They will be filled with indignation, especially when they know that the proposals are being made by those who always have been opposed to them.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Will the hon. Gentleman, whose words always carry sincerity, explain what he means when he says that my hon. and right hon. Friends are against the old people?
  Mr. Smith: Well, this will start a long controversy; but it is quite a reasonable question to ask and wants a reasonable answer. The right hon. Gentleman knows that before the war—I am not going further back into history than that—we battled for years asking for an increase in the 10s. I remember the late Neville Chamberlain, at the Treasury Box, time after time, making all kinds of excuses—explanations, if the right hon. Gentleman likes—why the 10s. could not be increased. That did not go on for a few months: it went on for years and years. I visualise men like Tom Pitt, Will Banfield, and Joe Tinker—many hon. Members like that: I wish we were producing some more now—battling away as they did for years and years, in Parliament and in the country, for an increase in the 10s. They did not receive a penny increase until as a result of pressure—I admit this now—from both sides the supplementary pension was introduced—I am speaking from memory—in 1940.
  Mr. Butler: The hon. Gentleman will not deny the initiative taken by Neville Chamberlain and Sir Kingley Wood in this matter of old age pensions? I think that we are now getting a clearer picture.
  Mr. Smith: No. I said pressure from both sides. Of course, since then we have had people like the right hon. Gentleman the new Member for Ormskirk (Sir A. Salter), who, I understand, is to speak from the Opposition Front Bench, and, if I remember rightly, Sir John Anderson.

  1095
  We cannot forget what he said, also speaking from that Box.
  However, I said that I would confine myself to the Economic Survey. In my view, Britain's chief assets are, first, our enormous industrial capacity; second, the skill of our industrial people in particular, which they recognise is not due to themselves but to generations of accumulated and inherited experience and knowledge; third, our coal. Those are the three greatest assets of Britain. We obtain a living for 50 million of our people by approximately only 12,250,000 men and women working to convert imported materials into manufactured goods and machines and then exporting them again—with the aid of the miners, in particular, who produce the fuel which is Britain's greatest material asset.
  There are employed in the basic industries only 4,250,000 and 8,000,000 in the manufacturing industries—a total of 12,250,000, working to find a livelihood for the rest of the people—over 40 million. There is a total in civil employment of 21,500,000. I want to emphasise—and we have arrived at the stage when this ought to be emphasised—that there are far too few people in this country engaged in the important basic industries and manufacturing industries. They urgently require reinforcements. If those who prepared this Survey had experience in industry they would have approached our problems in the way I am now approaching them.
  Let me make a few observations upon the Survey itself. Paragraph 1 records a great achievement of hard work and sacrifices, and is a tribute to our fellow countrymen, and particularly to the 12,250,000 engaged in the basic and manufacturing industries. It is the result of five years of regulation of our economy, and, to that extent, marks a big step forward compared with what would have been the position had the Conservatives been in power. This proves what could have been done had we planned our economy as we thought it should have been planned. Paragraph 2 states:
  "… by the end of 1950 it could fairly be claimed that the immediate task of post-war recovery was completed, with the notable exception of coal, and, to a lesser extent, of generating capacity. …"
  For five years I have disagreed with the country's coal and power policy. I believe
  1096
  that those two industries should have been given greater priority than they have been given in the past five years.
  Then we come to paragraph 3, following which we may say that we should all be grateful that so many millions voted Labour in 1945 and 1950. As a result of the policy of regulating our economy we have not only achieved all that but, according to the economic reviews of other countries, the wages and standard of living in Britain are relatively higher than they are in any other country in the world. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh,"] I am not saying it. If we take the Review of the United Nations we find that it states that relative—
  Mr. Nigel Birch: Relative to what?
  Mr. Smith: Relative to our pre-war position according to this Review, the average real wages in the world have dropped by 50 per cent. since 1945.
  Mr. Osborne: Has the hon. Gentleman seen Lloyds Bank Review, which, on page 63, shows that the cost of living in the United Kingdom and the United States, compared from 1938 to 1950, show that the dollar has fallen by only 43 per cent., whereas the pound has fallen by 47 per cent.? It also shows that the relative incomes before and after the war were about 157 per cent. in the United States, whereas ours is about 98 per cent.
  Mr. Smith: That may be so. I have not had an opportunity of reading that Lloyds Bank Review. I have put it on one side, ready to read, and I will certainly check up on that.
  According to my information, while the average real wages in the world have dropped 50 per cent. since 1945, in our country they have dropped only 15 per cent. whereas in the United States they have dropped 25 per cent. In October, 1920, the cost of food was 191 per cent. over July, 1914. How were the engineers treated—those who, apart from the men who served in the Armed Forces who must come first, made greatest contribution to winning the two wars? While the cost of living went up 191 per cent. engineers' wages were increased by only £1 19s. 6d., plus 12 per cent. on earnings.
  From 1914 to 1923 wages never caught up with the real cost of living, and here we see the fundamental difference in this

  1097
  country—and this is why people in the industrial areas will go on voting Labour, irrespective of disappointments in certain respects—between government by ordinary methods and government by regulation. Huge reductions took place in wages between 1923 and 1933: in agriculture, 40 per cent.; compositors, 21 per cent.; locomotive drivers, 22 per cent. How were the real wealth producers treated, those to whom I belong, the so-called unsheltered trades? Coal miners received wage reductions of 46.5 per cent between 1923 and 1933. Compare that with the enormous increase in their wages, conditions and status since 1945. The wages of engineers—those men who have proved themselves as patriotic as any section of the community—were reduced 38.5 per cent.; steel workers, 42 per cent.; cotton operatives, 38 per cent. No wonder that in these large industrial centres people cannot forget those dark, drab days between the two wars.
  Paragraph 8 of the Economic Survey says:
  "we must try to meet most of the cost of re-armament by sacrificing for the lime being …"
  "For the time being"! For many years it has been "for the time being." I have heard those words sung to many different tunes: "Fight a war to end war"; "Save democracy"; "Save the pound"; "Fight to stave off Russian Imperialism." Now some people are talking about re-arming.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Which people?
  Mr. Smith: Those who are responsible for pressing the re-armament, and those who have menaced our country on two occasions.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The Government.
  Mr. Smith: They alike, and all those who agree with them, too.
  Paragraph 9 of the Economic Survey says:
  "The shortage of raw materials is, indeed, much the most serious of all the difficulties with which the United Kingdom is likely to be faced."
  I agree. But what action has been taken about that? Paragraph 11 says:
  "defence expenditure has now to be raised at a rapidly increasing rate."
  1098
  What for? To support men like "Emperor" MacArthur?
  Mr. Osborne: That is out of date now.
  Mr. Smith: The world has to thank this country for having a Government which has used its influence to bring that change about.
  I supported the two world wars, unlike some other people. I have never been a party, and never will be, to asking others to do what I am not prepared to do myself. Having said that, let me add that there will be no national unity in our country in support of any war that could and should be avoided. Paragraph 21 says:
  "Alternatively, if the existing labour force could provide the extra production …."
  It is always the "labour force," meaning industrial workers. That is why I emphasised at the beginning of my speech that it is always those people who must increase production. It is not the professional people, not the local authority people, but those engaged mainly in mining, engineering, cotton, pottery and their allied services in transport.
  Mr. Osborne: And agriculture and fisheries.
  Mr. Smith: We know that agriculture plays its part.
  Paragraph 25 states:
  "Physical shortages and the needs of arms production will inevitably lead to a reduction in exports of coal. …"
  Then, paragraph 47 states:
  "The scarcity of sulphur is, without doubt, the most threatening of all. Sulphur and sulphuric acid are consumed either directly or indirectly in almost every industry in the United Kingdom."
  I ask the question, to which I think we are entitled to a reply from the Government spokesmen: Is it a fact that the shortage of sulphur has been foreseen for three years? If so, why have no substitutes been introduced? Why have we been left so dependent on sulphur from the United States? If anyone doubts that this was foreseen, let them turn to the White Paper, which can be obtained in the Library. Unfortunately, there are published far too many reports upon which no action is taken. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The Opposition say "Hear, hear," but this applied more before the war than it does at present. The First Report of the Committee on

  1099
  Industrial Productivity, published in April, 1949, states:
  "Although raw sulphur does not account for a very large sum in our import programme … it is a very critical import … our supplies of natural sulphur are at present drawn exclusively from the U.S.A. This is not only expensive in dollars, but it renders us unduly dependent on a single source of supply."
  After the First World War, I was in the Army of Occupation in Germany, and although I have always been critical of Prussian militarism and all that kind of thing, and was hypercritical about the menace of Nazi ideas on all that was best in life long before many hon. Members had made up their minds where they stood, I must say that as soon as Germany saw that she was in a serious economic position after the First World War, she turned to substitutes and alternative methods of production. They introduced synthetic things of all kinds and that, to a certain extent, assisted them to get over their difficulties. Why have we not done the same in this country? I am confident that there are certain well-organised, powerful vested interests which have prevented this country from going over to substitutes because it would not be in their interests to do so, although it would be in the national interest.
  Political forces opposite who had power in the past are not entitled to be critical now, except within narrow limits. Why did not they implement the many reports which were published before the war? The first one which comes to my mind is the Sankey Report. The second are the two reports published on the Severn Barrage. So that I should be well-informed on this subject, I spent a day, some years ago, with one of the greatest authorities in the world, discussing with him the question of obtaining electricity supplies through hydro-electrification. I went through the drawings, and I was introduced to the engineers, the statisticians, the designers and others and I am confident that this country could have implemented the 1933 and 1943 reports published by the engineers who made that inquiry.
  Had these reports been implemented, we would have now an output of at least 2,000 million kilowatt hours per annum; a saving of almost one million tons of coal per annum, which would have been available for export, and a saving in the
  1100
  transport of coal. Can the Chancellor give us an answer to the inquiry which he undertook to make two years ago on the practicability of the Severn Barrage scheme, and say if it is proposed to implement that report?
  My final point deals with paragraph 100, which is concerned particularly with the recovery of German and Japanese industrial production. I have read of and seen the menace of Japan for 30 years—the sinking of our ships and the way they treated our men. After years of menace to our people's standards, we now read that the Americans, in particular, are proposing to put Japan on her feet again. I believe—without going into the details which I have here—that America's proposals are outrageous and should be repudiated by this country immediately. They are a challenge and a menace to the standards of the industrial people throughout the world.
  By putting Japan on her feet again America will have to aid Japan and subsidise Japanese industries with supplies of cotton, oil, iron ore and coking coal for some time. The people in our industrial areas will say, "What a game this is." The people of Britain feel very uneasy about the re-armament of Germany and the economic re-armament of Japan. I say, speaking from a point of view of the ordinary people, that it simply does not make sense. The proposed United States-Japanese peace treaty is an insult to world democracy. The chairman of the Japanese Social Democratic Party has already said this:

  "1. Re-armament violates the disarmament clauses of the Constitution and endangers world peace.

  2. It might lead to the use of force against the workers and to Fascist developments in Japan.

  3. Many of the thirteen members of the Far Eastern Commission are opposed to it.

  4. The Japanese people are overwhelmingly against it, and if it were imposed upon them by their Government would not be willing soldiers."

  The textile, pottery and other industries are feeling very concerned about the proposed United States colonisation of Japan under the cloak of a so-called peace treaty. The Government should insist on safeguards or refuse to be a party to these proposals. Japan was and is a terrible menace to our standards, which were built up as a result of years of sacrifice in the trade union movement.

  1101
  Now we are seeing it again. It is staring at us on the horizon.
  Japan has low standards of living, long hours, and low wages. They copy our designs and ideas. We do not object to fair competition, but Japanese competition is most unfair. The hours of labour in Japan should be fixed, before we agree to anything like this, at 45 hours a week. Wages should be increased considerably and conditions improved. There should be an international fair wages and conditions clause. One can understand the people in North Staffordshire and Lincolnshire in particular being concerned about this.
  The United States imported before the war pottery from France worth £370,000; Germany, £549,000; Britain, £1,850,000; Japan, £3,120,000. Again, we can see this kind of thing developing. I quote from the United States publication entitled "Foreign Commerce Weekly." This is a publication of the Department of Commerce of 3rd October, 1949.
  Mr. Osborne: On many occasions the hon. Gentleman has protested to his own Front Bench about long speeches by Front Bench Members preventing back benchers from speaking. I was rather hoping that he himself would set a good example.
  Mr. Smith: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the columns in the OFFICIAL REPORT he will find that I have been preparing myself for this speech. I have not spoken for some time. I want to do justice to those whom I represent and I do not care about anyone else's opinion.
  According to this publication, in 1949 industrial production in Japan was 77.8 per cent. of the 1932–36 period. If we include output of utilities it was 94.2 per cent. Taking the same period, the production of metals in 1949 was 84.4 per cent.; ceramics, 79.6 per cent. Large development of hydro-electric power sources is now taking place in Japan. Three new power plants are now being constructed in Japan and 30 others are being prepared. I want to conclude by pointing out that the Japanese Prime Minister said:
  "The cost of re-armament would upset out programme of economic rehabilitation."
  What a joke it would be if it were not so tragic. All the human sacrifices, the
  1102
  torture of our men and the sinking of our ships creates frustration and disillusionment in the minds of our people. The Labour Movement should say in no uncertain way, that never again shall we be a party to encouraging a return to the standards we had to contend with in the past, standards that we were supposed to have fought to stave off during the last war. International standards ought to be laid down to ensure that these conditions will never again be a menace to us or to other countries.
  7.30 p.m.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I have been groping for something with which to deal in the speech of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith), but I have found it exceedingly difficult. He did, however, disclose himself as an arch protectionist, and in that he is being a loyal doctrinal member of the Labour Party, because the policy of the Labour Party, when carried to its conclusion, must lead to extreme protectionism and autarchy. He is in the main stream of opinion to that extent. But I wonder whether there is any salvation for this country these days in this high protection, or whether our fortunes and prosperity do not depend entirely on international trade; upon seeing that we give as much opportunity for countries abroad to thrive and prosper and trade with us as we give to our own people. I can think that only poverty and misery for this country lies ahead if we go much further along the lines of extreme exclusion that we have seen developing steadily over the last 10 years.
  I am glad that the Financial Secretary has returned, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself as I speak the words, which is a great honour for the Committee, and is perhaps in recognition of the fact that although these debates are beginning in a desultory way, they will develop in the weeks and months ahead in such a way that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleague will be required to sit on the Government Front Bench almost continuously to deal with Opposition speeches and votes. I was wondering, during the course of the last few speeches, why we had the pleasure of the company of the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland for so long, until I thought that perhaps her presence was a token of the imminent return of the Stone of Scone to Westminster. However, she

  1103
  has given place to the right hon. Gentleman and the debate can proceed.
  Members have been almost unanimous in their congratulations and approving comments on the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a finely constructed speech, and one which deeply interested the Committee. But, in all the approving comments that have been made, there has been a disposition to think that he is capable of working a miracle and that his Budget is of the character of a miracle, instead of which, as I see it, nothing has been said or done that can really cloud or overcome the immense gravity of the financial events which surround us. The right hon. Gentleman showed himself to be a good Chancellor presiding over a bad situation. I would rather we had a bad Chancellor presiding over a good situation.
  All these highly knitted arguments, explanations and expositions really amount to very little, or to nothing at all. It was all quite interesting, and it brought the subjects together, to have the Chancellor chasing an elusive figure all the way through his speech, allowing it to increase at one moment and to decrease at another, until, in the end, he proved to his satisfaction and to those who still care for the doctrines of Lord Keynes that the inflationary gap had been closed and all was well. The Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to think that he is Neptune quelling the ebb and flow of great waters with a trident. I picture myself and other taxpayers, on the other hand, as bathers on the Sydney beaches watching a shark coming in with the incoming tide.
  This modern notion that the Budget is somehow an instrument of salvation in present circumstances is, to my mind, pure "hooey." It can have practically no effect upon the essentials of our external or internal financial position. Something very much more drastic is required than mere balancing of the Budget or producing intellectual arguments to overcome the inflationary gap if we are to find succour and help. With these levels of taxation, it seems ridiculous to think that if a Budget is created with a surplus of £100 million we are therefore initiating a process of deflation, whereas if there is a deficit of £100 million we are initiating the process of inflation.
  1104
  I am much more of the thinking of the economist Colin Clarke, who said that above certain levels of taxation all Budgets, balanced or unbalanced, are inflationary, or at any rate that could be reasonably deduced from his thesis. There comes a time when in particular political and social circumstances, connected, perhaps, with the fear of external aggression, or the absence of fear, when people are simply not prepared to have their way of life, whether they are people of large means or small, curtailed by governmental activity and taxation.
  All that is being done by drawing out of the pockets of the people these vast sums and then expending them is to add to the aggregate of private spending, which is naturally recognised and insisted upon. It is this additive effect that produces inflation. If the Government were to raise another £300 million or £400 million, and allow expenditure to stay at what it is today, it would have no effect on rising inflation. That is my belief, which is supported by many eminent economists at the present time.
  There seem to be only four avenues of relief for these rising prices, the increasing cost of living and incipient runaway inflation. The first is expenditure. We can divide that into home expenditure and overseas expenditure. Of home expenditure, I believe that the situation is so grave as to warrant a cut by a small percentage in all the supply services. My right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) thought that perhaps we could find £50 million in savings in administration. I have not worked out what percentage that is, but a 5 per cent. cut in the supply services would yield £180 million and I should have thought a cut like that would be worth while. Of course, in some fields such as education and the social services such a cut would not be applied, but in other fields, and I believe that this is true of the general food subsidies, we might let it run to a cut of 8, 9 or even 10 per cent. While on the subject of food subsidies many of my hon. Friends have said that in these days it is quite wrong for the middle income and upper income classes to be receiving these subsidies. They ought to be cut back and consequent provision made for those in slender circumstances. I am perfectly certain we would get a moderate cut in food subsidies along those lines.

  1105
  We see a very much graver situation in overseas expenditure. There is a heavy drain at present upon the lives and energies of our people due to the amount of goods, services and money which is flung overseas and which ought to be curtailed drastically; indeed, some of it halted altogether. There was a very interesting article in the "Observer" some time ago, which showed that we drained away from this country the total receipts that we had from Marshall Aid. That is harking back a long time now, and I think the Government are to be greatly blamed for allowing it to be thought throughout the world that the British people were deriving some direct benefit from Marshall Aid, instead of which the life and the comforts of the people of this country have been damaged, and the money canalised out of this country and sent overseas, that is if I understand that article aright. It has never been contradicted, but has been supported by some hon. Members opposite. What has happened to that money goodness only knows.
  There are loans and gifts which the Government have steadily granted to foreign countries and to all parts of the Colonial Empire. My hon. Friends on this side of the Committee set great store by the Colonial Development and Welfare Act and the gifts and grants that are made under it. I earnestly hope that we shall see in the coming months how essential it is to keep back in this country a certain proportion of the goods and services which we need, but which, through our immediate generosity, we wish to send overseas or to some country in the Colonial Empire. There are the fantastic wastes of money on groundnuts, poultry schemes and other undertakings of a like nature. There is also the burden of the sterling debt, released because of the present over-liberal attitude. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) has demanded time and time again we should make a comprehensive settlement, including compensation for war services, thus ending the thing and cancelling the debt.
  Sir R. Acland: Repudiating the debt.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Not repudiating the debt but making a settlement, instead of which the Government, in their profligacy and over-humani-
  1106
  tarianism on behalf of people abroad, are chucking the money away, as a result of which the British people are taking it in the teeth with rising prices and inflation.
  Sir R. Acland: What does the noble Lord say if the other people to whom we owe these debts, contracted when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), was Prime Minister, refuse to do what the hon. Gentleman has said?
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I do not know what we would do, but, in the first instance, we should make an approach and see how far we can get. The Government have done nothing of the kind.
  Mr. Ross: Nonsense.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Then there are things like the Foreign Office Estimate, which has risen from £2 million to £25 million, and is now the subject of investigation by the Estimates Committee. I cannot go into details, but that shows the wastefulness and complacency which exists. There are all these elaborate contributions to the United Nations organisation—not to the organisation itself but to schemes and projects which are prepared and developed by them, and the money for which is spent by a committee over which we have no control. Once the Foreign Office gets the money which is voted by this House it never sees it again. All that kind of thing must be brought to an end, because it constitutes a tremendous drain out of this country of our goods and services, and thus of our standard of living.
  The second avenue to relief in our present predicament is one which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. E. Martin Smith), namely, increased production. I believe that that can only come about if we take the right course, and by doing so we should get more than a 4 per cent. increase in productivity. I doubt very much whether, in this coming year, with things as they are, we shall get to the level of the productivity which we had last year. I do not wish to take time dwelling upon these things tonight, but it is a simple argument. Unless people are given incentives there cannot be increased production. Why should people work harder and longer unless they can see an opportunity of saving and enjoying a better life, keeping money aside for, say, a house at the

  1107
  end of their days? How can those things be except by lower taxation? The Government do not seem to think in those terms at all. Although the Chancellor would not balance his Budget, in the hearts of the people he would engender a new hope and a new joy of life and increased productivity would come about.
  The third avenue to relief which I want to commend has also been mentioned by my hon. Friend, and that is rising interest rates. There is today, in all the Government's administrative affairs, a new recognition of the value of the price mechanism. They are dispensing with many physical controls and allowing financial control to take over. It may not be popular with the Labour Party, but that is what the Government are doing and it is something for which we have begged for a long time. Why not go a step further and apply the price mechanism to capital investment and allow the interest rates to rise, thus canalising new industrial activities into projects which are worth while?
  Nobody knows better than the men engaged in industry how to do it, and certainly they know much better than the Government administrators of Whitehall, who cannot know all the facts. There is a tremendously increasing case today, from the point of view of holding back inflation and reducing purchasing power, for increasing the interest rates.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: Could the noble Lord tell us some-thing about the prosperity of the country when taxation was so low and interest rates were so high following the last war?
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: We could go to the other extreme and have interest rates at 6, 7 and 8 per cent., which would produce a slump, but at the present moment the boot is on the other leg. We have the dangers of inflation and we are governed by the Keynesian doctrine of Government stimulation. No one has given recognition to the reverse tactics, to what Keynes himself would, I am convinced, have suggested if he were alive today.
  The other effect of raising interest rates would be that it would do a thing which has not happened for some time and which is obviously of immense value in
  1108
  our predicament. We have dispensed with Marshall Aid, which, in my view, we never had in this country, because it was canalised out. That may delight the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland), because he has great concepts of development overseas, and to him it does not matter very much whether in this process the people of this country reduce their standard of living. Let us replace Marshall Aid by rising interest rates, and invite Canadian and American, and perhaps Swiss, Swedish and South African capital into this country and, with it, enormous quantities of goods and services.
  I am concluding, but I want to mention briefly the fourth avenue to release. My right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot said that we were long of money and short of goods. The fact that we are long of money is shown by our having $3,850,000,000 worth of gold and dollars now, or a sum approximating to it, which means that we have a cushion enabling us to make a change. I hope that the Government will give attention in the months to come to a revaluation of sterling. We have to make our exports earn more and our imports cost less. In these days, when the pound sterling note is doing rather better on the foreign markets, in some cases rather better than par, we should try to push the valuation up to 3 dollars or to 3.20 dollars. That is an operation which the Government cannot afford to say anything about—they said nothing about the reverse process—but I hope they will consider it in the coming months.
  From these benches we shall offer forthright and ruthless opposition to the Budget and the Finance Bill. The Government, since they have been in power, have spent about £20,000 million of the people's money—
  Mr. Jennings: Wasted.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke:—and have wasted a great deal of it. We think that in present circumstances they ought not to be allowed another penny of it. I hope very much that, just as we have voted consistently on extra-budgetary increases, such as price increases and railway freight charges, on Prayers and on Supply Days, so we shall do exactly the same thing in this Budget and vote against all the increases that the Govern-

  1109
  ment have proposed. Not to do that would be derogating from the duties of an Opposition.
  7.53 p.m.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: I am sure that we are all grateful to the noble Lord for his warning. It will give us an opportunity to go into special training. I should have thought that in the last six years the Government had done a magnificent job of work. When I look back to 1945, when we were practically bankrupt, and after giving full praise to our Atlantic friends and cousins for the assistance we have had, I still think that we are further along the road to economic independence and financial self-respect than anyone had the right to expect at this stage.
  I do not want to spend a lot of time on eulogies, but I would add my congratulations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on national, party and personal grounds. It is a Budget that will give very great satisfaction throughout the country and certainly it has had a tonic effect on my party. Indeed I do not remember the Parliamentary Labour Party being so perky, united and harmonious for a long while.
  I want to ask a question of the Chancellor and to get a little explanation. The Committee knows that in the last 12 months I have taken an active interest in the very important subject of agricultural economics. It would be a good thing if my colleagues felt less antipathy to getting a little farm manure on their shoes. This is a very important subject, but on these benches we are a little prone to steer clear of subjects that we think we do not know enough about. We do not have to take a dose of strychnine to prove that strychnine is lethal in its effect. Nobody has inhibitions about discussing the Armed Forces although he has not been in the Armed Forces, so I hope very much that many of my colleagues will turn to this subject in an endeavour to learn more about it. I will say without equivocation that if, by some mischance, there were a transference of political power following the next General Election, I should be the busiest recruiting sergeant since Moody and Sankey.
  I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for some explanation of what appears to be a contradiction and a discrepancy between this year's White Paper
  1110
  on Government expenditure and last year's. Last year, on page 9, the income from farming was given as £258 million for 1948 and £283 million for 1949. In this year's White Paper, those profits are given as £261 for 1948 and £304 for 1949. The last item shows a difference of £21 million. If we could have an explanation of the discrepancy, I should be grateful. Although I fight hard on this subject, I always try to be fair.
  Enormous sums have been poured into this industry. The consequence is that, in the first place, we have a land inflation that is in many ways reminiscent of the Lancashire cotton boom of the 1920s. I know of a farm which was recently sold for £18,000 which in 1934 was sold for £1,750. It is becoming practically impossible for farmers to buy farms for their sons. It is getting very difficult to rent a farm even, because the money that can now be obtained from sales presents a big inducement to the owners to sell out. Dinner jacket farmers from the City and the suburbs are descending on the countryside like a crowd of locusts. I do not think that is a good thing for agriculture. It is very important that we should look into the reasons and I must record my belief that the reason is to be found in the policy that the Government are adopting towards the industry.
  In particular, I find it very difficult to understand the further increases in prices conceded as a result of the last farm price review. Most of all, I am worried by the ever-growing cataract of milk. I said at Manchester a year ago that guaranteed markets for unlimited quantities at prices which enabled the inert and inefficient to make a profit were concealing a good deal of inefficiency and inertia in the industry. That caused a hullabaloo. The N.F.U. president recently announced that within the next five years we shall have 375 million gallons of milk more, with no increase in the number of cows. There must be a good deal of inefficiency at the moment to permit a 20 per cent. increase in production without any increase in the number of producing units. I am glad that the dairy side of the industry is making itself more efficient.
  I am interested to know what we are to do with all that milk. Someone might get the odd idea that I should drink some. The N.F.U. president had the answer to that. He said that we should

  1111
  have unlimited quantities of pre-war quality ice cream and substantial quantities of delicious milk chocolate. Hundreds of millions of pounds in farm subsidies year after year, £800 million of new capital poured into the agricultural industry in 10 years and at the end of it all, plenty of ice cream.
  Mr. Baldwin: Will the hon. Member tell the House of a single article for which the farmer gets a guaranteed price for which he could not get more on the open market?
  Mr. Evans: The answer must be that without the £300 million subsidy—
  Mr. Baldwin: Answer the question.
  Mr. Evans:—in part paid direct and in part paid by the consumer, nobody could afford to buy the products of British agriculture. That is the position into which we have put ourselves. First, we inject large sums into the industry to stimulate production and then we find that the cost of the article is so high that we have to give the housewife money to enable her to buy it.
  I want to talk about the extra 375 million gallons of milk. That is a lot of milk. No one belonging to the N.F.U. or the industry ever says anything about butter. Where I come from they are very fond of butter and they have been short of it for a long while. The 375 million gallons of milk would produce 74,000 tons of butter. The total import of butter is about 124,000 tons, but nobody in the industry ever says anything about the prospects of providing more English butter. I was curious about this, and I found the reason we cannot have more butter. It takes roughly 2½ gallons of milk to make a pound of butter and we are now paying the British farmer 5d. more for a gallon of milk than we are paying our overseas suppliers for a pound of butter. What do the farmers say to that?
  Mr. Baldwin: I will tell the Committee what the farmers say to that. They say the Government should free the industry and let it do what it likes and get what it likes. We do not want subsidies and guaranteed prices.
  Mr. Kenyon: My hon. Friend should remember that more things have
  1112
  to be taken into account in making butter. For instance, the skimmed milk is turned to other uses, and that must be borne in mind in considering prices.
  Mr. Evans: I am sure there are very important considerations about which we should all like to hear. My complaint is that the N.F.U. and the industry never mention butter and we who live in industrial areas would like to see a little more butter. We are given the new figure of milk production and yet nothing is said about more butter. That is significant. The industry should address itself to this problem. There can be no doubt that Denmark, which sends us a pound of butter for less than we pay our farmers for a gallon of milk, has no advantage of soil, climate or wages, and it is very difficult for the workers in the industrial areas to understand why there is such a discrepancy in costs.
  Mr. Snadden: The hon. Member says that Denmark has no advantage, but does he realise that only 5 per cent. of the agricultural labour in Denmark is employed labour, whereas in this country 50 per cent. is employed labour? The conditions are entirely different. They are family farms in Denmark.
  Mr. Evans: But the families do not work for nothing. The relative wages were printed in "The Times" for all to see not long ago. The farmers and their wives do not work for nothing. Is it suggested that they work for nothing?
  Mr. Hugh Eraser: Another point that the hon. Member should remember is that Denmark has to import feedingstuffs from abroad, and, as Denmark has a large animal population to consume the skimmed milk which becomes available, conditions relating to costs are, therefore, different.
  Mr. Evans: I hope it will be noted that the Tory agricultural chorus is taking up a little of my time. There is a reason why the Danes and other Continental peoples generally are so much more efficient and can therefore bring a sharper competitive force to bear in agricultural primary products. They look after their grass. There is no doubt that most British grassland is woefully, if not disgracefully, neglected. Any fair practical farmer will say that the output could be doubled in a very short space of time,

  1113
  and if that output were then processed and stored we should not need to find such large sums of foreign currency for feedingstuffs.
  Mr. Jennings: Will the hon. Gentleman produce some evidence for such a statement? It is absolute nonsense.
  Mr. Evans: I am sorely tempted to answer.
  I would say that another important effect of the uneconomic price that is being paid for milk, which is costing more than £100 million a year subsidy—is that in areas in which the main activity was traditionally grain—I am thinking particularly of wheat—there is a very big changeover from wheat to milk. In 1947, we embarked on this agricultural policy of injecting very large sums of public money into the industry with a view of insulating ourselves against the need for dollars. It would seem that instead of utilising our best grain lands for growing, we are allowing them to turn over to milk. That, being a cash crop at a very high price, is not unnaturally attractive.
  I suggest to the House that we should watch this trend very carefully, because public money is involved. Let me give one simple illustration. Norfolk produced in 1938 roughly 21 million gallons of milk, and in 1949 35 million gallons, an increase of 61 per cent. But in the case of wheat, for which we have to pay with dollars if we do not produce it in this country, output has dropped in the same county from 141,000 tons in 1938 to 111,000 tons, a decrease of 30,000, or 22 per cent. in the period in which milk production has increased by 61 per cent.
  Mr. Baldwin: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee that the English farmer is compelled to sell 75 per cent. of his wheat to the Ministry of Food at £4 per ton less than is paid for foreign wheat landed in this country? He has to sell wheat at £28 to £29 per ton but has to pay £32 per ton for feed for his pigs.
  Mr. Evans: I do not accept that farmers farming scientifically and energetically on good land are having anything but a very good time. They are buying washing machines, milking machines, tractors, cars and lorries more easily than they used to buy manure barrows. We have now got to the stage where more money means not more production but less.
  Mr. Baldwin: Then leave the industry alone.
  Mr. Evans: By the paying of prices for commodities which enable the least efficient and energetic to make profits, we make certain excessive profits for the energetic farmer farming scientifically on good land. That is a very bad consequence indeed. In the first place, such a farmer finds himself ranged as a profiteer, which he does not like very much, and for that reason he is driving with the brake on. Also, he is brought into the higher Surtax brackets too early, and for that reason, too, he is likely to ride with the brake on. These fancy prices are based on the capacity of poor farmers, agricultural drones, Luddites, and misfits to make profits. Let us be quite clear that this system is probably retarding production, not helping it.
  I want to see in this industry money harder to get and easier to keep. I believe that before there is any health in this industry, there will have to be a few healthy bankruptcies.
  Mr. Snadden: The hon. Member has quoted from the Command Paper, and has mentioned certain figures. Does he realise that the income from farming shown in the Government Command Paper published the day before yesterday is only 2.7 per cent. of the national income? Considering that 40 per cent. of the food we eat is produced by the industry, surely it is entitled to an even bigger slice of the national cake?
  Mr. Evans: We are quite willing to proceed on the basis of the rate for the job. My grievance is that we are paying the rate but we are not getting the job done efficiently. I would say that a 500 per cent. increase in income for a 40 per cent. increase in production is unduly generous. But I must not try the patience of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."] I should like to go on.
  Mr. Jennings: The hon. Member cannot teach the farmers their business.
  Mr. Evans: I have yet to hear the hon. Member for Hallam (Mr. Jennings) say anything intelligent. I should like to say a word about the February price review. I do not think that the present system of reviewing prices is satisfactory. Year after year it seems to me to be a one-horse race with the farmers

  1115
  winning in a canter. I believe it is high time that the method of determining these prices was altered. I cast no aspersions on the impeccable nature of anyone's motives, but I believe that the industry itself and the Ministry of Agriculture really believe that all-out British farm production, no matter what the cost, is the prerequisite to British prosperity. I do not accept that, but it is quite easy to see that people who think that their prosperity is synonymous with national prosperity will have no compunction about fixing prices which they think will serve the interests of their industry and indeed the nation well.
  I am not very happy about the part played by the Treasury in the price review on this occasion. I am willing to concede that we have a new Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I think that once more the Treasury have allowed themselves to be pushed about instead of standing firm. I do not think there was any need for a price increase on this occasion. It would be a very good thing if we had a Royal Commission to examine this industry from top to bottom.
  Mr. Baldwin: Hear, hear. Have a go.
  Mr. Evans: Such a Commission could then decide whether we are using our resources to the best advantage, whether it is intelligent to try to grow wheat half way up Ben Nevis. It could decide all these things, and it could also decide on a method of price-fixing which would be fair to the industry and to the nation alike.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Maudling: The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) always speaks with great sincerity on the question of farm prices, but I am sure he will forgive me if I do not follow him. I cannot make even a pretence of understanding farm accounts, and I do not want to be involved in this argument. I think it would be fairest all round if the Financial Secretary would arrange for the hon. Member's speech to be circulated in the rural districts, accompanied by comments from hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, in order that the argument could be then discussed as widely as possible.
  I listened, as did other hon. Members, with great interest to the extremely lucid
  1116
  and coherent speech which the Chancellor made yesterday. One point of interest to me was the increase in the disregard of pensioners' earnings. I myself put a Motion on the Order Paper several weeks ago suggesting that this should be done. It gathered to itself some 50 Conservative signatures, but it did not gather any signatures from hon. Members on the other side of the Committee; even though an expert committee under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), I think, recommended precisely the same thing some weeks later.
  Mr. Houghton: We consider that there are better ways of making representations.
  Mr. Maudling: Anyway, I am glad we both agree that the result achieved is a good one.
  This Budget has been received with a remarkable amount of approval from hon. Members on both sides. I have seen it described in the Tory Press as a Tory Budget and in the Socialist Press as a Socialist Budget; which is rather contrary to the normal proceedings whereby people generally call a Socialist Budget a Tory one and vice versa. This degree of unanimity is really surprising, but I do not think it will last indefinitely when people begin to understand the real implications of the disinflationary policy which the Chancellor is pursuing. As I understand it, the object of his Budget is to equate purchasing power with the goods available to be purchased; in other words, to prevent the addition of credit inflation on the top of the already existing cost inflation.
  I am sure everyone would agree that that is a proper objective for the Budget this year; but I think it is worth pausing to recall once again that the major causes of the cost inflation which has already taken place, and which is the most serious part of the burden the country has to bear, include the effects of devaluation and the effects of delayed purchasing of raw materials by the Government. I think it probably fair to argue, as Government supporters have argued, that after devaluation in the early part of 1950, they used the bargaining power of the British market to restrain price rises in our imports that might otherwise have taken place. I think that is undoubtedly true.

  1117
  But the change from a policy of holding off the market to a policy of going into the market was far too much delayed.
  The machinery of bulk purchase, concentrating decisions in one man, is bound to make mistakes of this kind, and we on this side of the Committee have often argued that when these mistakes are made in the bulk buying system they are as a result, very big mistakes indeed. There is no question whatever that in the case of Argentine meat the Government have been caught in the position of a bear speculator on a rising market, which is one thing that a wise trader will never allow to happen. So I do not think there can be any doubt that the buying policy in the latter part of 1950 has contributed to the present cost inflation that forms the major part of the whole inflationary situation in the country.
  I would refer to what was said by the hon. Member who raised the matter of re-valuation. I should have thought that any question of re-valuation to a new fixed parity in the present situation was impossible. I have never yet seen a really cogent argument made against the system, adopted by the Government of Canada with considerable success, of allowing the £ to move freely in dealings between authorised dealers backed by a solid exchange equalisation account. I think there is a general feeling that the £ is under-valued, and that a much better way of curing the under-valuation of the £—which contributes to high import costs—is by allowing the £ to move freely in authorised dealings amongst people with permission to acquire foreign exchange. I should like to hear more about that point from the Chancellor.
  Before coming to his Budget proposals, the Chancellor dealt with non-Budget factors that contributed to inflation. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) said this afternoon, the Chancellor made relatively little reference to the possibility of increasing production. I do not think it is generally realised in the country that the 4 per cent. increase in production which we expect this year in fact represents no increase at all in the level of production attained by the end of the calendar year 1950. That is a measure of the stringency of the raw material position to which we have been brought. It is a very solemn thought that, after the increase in productivity year by year over the last three years, we are
  1118
  now to be tied back to the level of production at the end of 1950.
  The point I wish to make about production and which cannot be stressed too often, is that if our raw material shortages can in any reasonable time be cured or alleviated, the next problem will be the supply of labour, the shortage of labour and man-hours, particularly in the engineering industry. We hear a great deal about the shortage of machine tools, which is supposed to be a limiting factor on our production, but in the vast majority of cases our machine tools are still worked on a one-shift basis. With more hours worked in the engineering industry, either by bringing in more people, or by engaging in longer working hours, or by a combination of the two, we could get far more output from our existing machine tool capacity; and, with the world shortage of machine tools, I consider it highly important that we should concentrate on this possibility.
  The next point is the question of wages. The Chancellor referred again to the need to continue the restraint in wage increases. I should like to be sure that the relatively optimistic way in which he expressed himself will be justified in the event. To my mind, the most serious danger of further increasing the inflationary pressure in the country arises from a further increase in the rate of wages. It is on the wages front that the greatest danger will arise. I cannot help feeling that in some ways this present Budget will not contribute in any way to arresting and restraining wage increases. It may act in the other direction.
  The Chancellor said very little about credit policy, although it has been mentioned by two hon. Members on this side of the Committee. As I understand it, his view is that credit policy can be left to a combination of cutting out initial allowances plus selective restraint exercised by the banks. He referred to the recent increase in the rate of interest, which he did nothing to bring about himself, though he referred to it with a certain amount of approval.
  I do not believe that in practice it is possible for the banking system, with the best will in the world, to distinguish in every circumstance between advances which are inflationary and advances which are not inflationary. The system just cannot work with that nicety. I

  1119
  think that there is a considerable argument for backing up the existing system of credit control with a certain increase in the rate of interest. No doubt we shall hear arguments against that. There are counter-arguments on the other side. The effect on rents of an increase in interest rates is immediate. Undoubtedly, action would have to be taken to prevent increases in rent as a result of increases in the rate of interest. I think that that could be done by a review of the housing subsidy system, which is a system by no means perfectly designed to meet its purposes.
  The other argument is that, in present circumstances, with the rate of overdrafts at 4 per cent., charges can be set off against other income for tax purposes and therefore the net cost of the overdraft is relatively small—2 per cent. or less. One would have to increase the rate of interest very steeply in order to provide for a really considerable effect after taking tax into account. That, it is said, would mean a very large cost to the Treasury—a very large additional expenditure on the service of the National Debt. For my own part, I do not think that that objection is entirely valid. I believe that a very small increase indeed in short-term money rates might produce a remarkable psychological effect. I calculate that the cost to the Treasury of an increase of one-quarter per cent. in the short-term money rate would be about £15 million gross, or more like £5 million net when proper deductions for taxes have been made. That small relative cost would have a considerable disinflationary effect.
  While on this subject, I have another definite suggestion, and that is that something more should be done to control hire-purchase credit. The Americans have introduced a regulation W, I think it is called, which prescribes definite limits which are laid upon hire-purchase transactions. At present the policy of the Government is to try to restrain hire purchase, once again through the banking system. Once again, I do not believe that the banks, with the best will in the world, can possibly operate that system really effectively. There are too many ways of getting round the controls exercised by the banks in the matter of hire purchase. In present conditions
  1120
  when we are trying to cut down consumption of, for example, television sets and motor cars—production that conflicts with the re-armament programme—to allow large hire-purchase facilities to continue to exist is to run contrary to our whole policy.
  My final non-budgetary point is on the question of prices. This is a most important point indeed. Quite clearly, the Chancellor's intention is to cover the major part of the inflationary gap by allowing prices to rise. The major problem he has to face is that incomes are going to rise by £600 million, or thereabouts, whereas the real amount of goods available on which the income can be spent is going to fall. The major part of that gap is going to be closed by allowing prices to rise. That is the lesson which comes out of the Economic Survey and out of the Budget speech. It is not a lesson which has yet been properly appreciated by the country as a whole. It is most important that it should be appreciated.
  I have never fully understood why it is that a lot of economists consider that it is a good thing that prices should go up in order to cure inflation. I always thought that rising prices were a symptom of inflation rather than a cure; but I can see that a rise in import prices will exercise a disinflationary effect, just as much as a Budget surplus would, because that rise will withdraw money from consumption in this country. In effect, rising import prices are the foreigners' surplus. We are having to meet two disinflationary surpluses this year: one that goes for redemption of the debt to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the other that goes to the foreigner who sells us goods. The rise in import prices is the overseas merchant's and producer's surplus. That is, in fact, the major part of the Chancellor's plan to deal with his inflationary problem.
  Turning to the Budget proposals themselves, I have followed as best I could the very complicated calculations through which the Chancellor went in order to arrive at his figure of £150 million—a figure which had been reached beforehand by a number of newspapers by somewhat less complicated methods. I would not presume to quarrel with the figure which he has taken, which, so far as I can follow it, seems to be reasonable, but I am not at all happy about the

  1121
  methods which he has chosen to raise this money, for several reasons.
  In the first place, I think far too much emphasis has been laid on direct rather than indirect taxation. Surely, it is one of the axioms of taxation policy that, when we are trying to restrain inflation, we should place the tax burden as much as possible on the point at which money is spent rather than the point at which it is earned. I would rather see an increase in the duty on spirits than an increase in Income Tax, since the disincentive effect of the latter will be quite considerable. The increase in the rates of Income Tax will have a disincentive effect particularly on people in the £8 or £9 a week level of income, and I think the Chancellor might have taken this opportunity of increasing the number of steps in the Income Tax scale from three to four or five, a suggestion which has been urged on him on a number of occasions.
  Then there is the Profits Tax. It is, technically speaking, a bad tax, and it is particularly unfair to certain industries. I would call the attention of the Financial Secretary to its effect on the shipping industry, which I think may be particularly severe. I hope he will look at the effects of the Profits Tax on shipping. On account of the financial structure of the industry and the methods of financing shipbuilding for British shipowners, it may have very serious effects. Moreover, the Profits Tax was designed to reduce capital investment, but surely there can be no question of trying to cut down capital investment in British shipbuilding, because there is no conflict between defence and the civilian side in shipbuilding, since merchant shipping is as much a part of our defence as the Royal Navy.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jay): The hon. Gentleman is making a very fair speech, but may I ask him if he is discussing the initial allowances or the Profits Tax?
  Mr. Maudling: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I was referring to the initial allowance. The initial allowance also affects the problem of the balancing charge which falls on a shipping company when losses occur through accidents, which is another very serious matter. A criticism of the Profits Tax, to turn to that now, is the serious effect on com-
  1122
  panies with a very high gearing—those with a large amount of preference capital as compared with a small amount of ordinary capital—and I hope that in future there may be some attempt to deal with that question.
  My third criticism of the method of collecting revenue is that it will lead to a good deal of dis-saving. Both the Profits Tax and Income Tax will lead to a great deal of withdrawal of savings, which is a bad thing. I do not think that anything like enough attention has been paid to the problem of increasing personal savings, and I should like to make two suggestions.
  First, in regard to National Defence Bonds, instead of increasing the interest on these, why does not the Chancellor increase the premium on redemption several years ahead? This is far more attractive, in inflationary conditions, than an increase in the interest. There is another small but useful suggestion. The premiums paid for deferred annuities are not allowed for life insurance relief, but it is perfectly possible for the Treasury to put a maximum 25 per cent. cash option on a deferred annuity and to allow the premiums paid towards such annuities to rank for life assurance relief. If that were done, it would lead to a very considerable increase in personal savings by precisely those people—the middle classes, professional people and the self-employed—who are finding saving so very difficult today.
  I think the reason the party opposite are so strongly in favour of the Budget is that its proposals are obviously designed to soak the capitalist, or to place the burden on the middle and upper ranges of income. I think that is undoubtedly the reason the Budget proposals on the whole have met with their approval. There is a good argument in theory for saying that is the right step at the moment, because undoubtedly the rise in prices of imports, which is the major disinflationary weapon of the Chancellor, will fall most severely on the lower incomes. Lord Keynes has pointed out that it is the poorer people who live by consuming imports. It is those people in the lower ranges of income who will feel most severely the rise in prices.
  I hope the purpose is to meet a short-term problem and not a long-term prob-

  1123
  lem, I am sure many hon. Gentlemen opposite like to see a policy of slow equalisation of incomes by maintaining an absolute upper level of all net incomes and then steadily raising prices until equality is reached. I do not think this country will continue to prosper in a society where, comparatively speaking, all net incomes are equalised. So, while this policy underlying the Budget may be acceptable in an emergency, as a long-term policy it would be disastrous.
  But I am not sure that it will be effective—that it will exert this disinflationary influence—because it will lead to substantial dis-saving. The Chancellor has not the room to manœuvre. There is not the taxable capacity left, as has so often been said from this side of the House. In fact, he has to do the major part of the job by a rise in prices. When we say that the alternative to taxation should be reduction in Government expenditure we say that that reduction is essential not merely to avoid extra taxation but to avoid a rise in prices. Unless there are reductions in expenditure, which alone now can exert an effective disinflationary influence, further rises in prices are essential. Thus the choice for the public is between economy and a rise in prices. If that choice were to be put fairly, squarely and clearly to the public, they would decide in favour of economies rather than a further rise in prices.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. William Reid: My first duty is to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer not only upon his Budget Statement but upon the Budget itself. No Chancellor of the Exchequer within living memory has ever had such a difficult task in framing his Budget.
  The main point I wish to make is not a criticism of the Budget itself, but an expression of regret that at least one other avenue of taxation has not been explored. I refer to capital appreciation and the buying and selling of businesses. I believe that the regulations give the Chancellor power to do that but that they have not been applied as vigorously as they should have been applied. There are certain people who have made large sums of money by such transactions, upon which no Income Tax falls to be paid.
  1124
  I should like to draw the attention of the Chancellor to a case which has cropped up in my own Parliamentary division of Camlachie and which is typical of many others. An old-established tailoring business has a factory in Camlachie and another in Dundee. It employs 700 workers in each of these factories. It also owns a chain of retail shops throughout Scotland. A few months ago this concern was bought by a well-known city magnate.
  A few weeks later the business was re-sold to another multiple firm at a profit, I am credibly informed, of £300,000. As this £300,000 was appreciation of capital, no Income Tax falls to be deducted. In other words, this man could bank that £300,000 on current account and withdraw £200 a week for 30 years without any tax having to be paid. During that period the workers in these factories earning, say, on an average £7 a week, would have tax deducted week after week under P.A.Y.E. while the man who walked off with a profit of £300,000 gets off tax free.
  Who ordained that one man who simply buys and sells a business should make more money by that one transaction than any of the workers employed in these factories would earn in a whole lifetime of toil? Who made that law and how long will it be tolerated? I know that there are many difficulties in the way of finding a solution, but the resources of civilisation are not yet exhausted. In the United States of America they have found a solution to that problem, and I would earnestly appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look into this matter and see if a remedy can be found. If he does, I am sure he will receive the wholehearted support of all sections of the Committee. I will be only too pleased to submit to my right hon. Friend all the facts in connection with this case to which I have referred and which is typical of many others.
  Another important matter to which I would like to refer is this. Does the Chancellor think that the import tax on foreign manufactured goods is either sufficient or is being applied properly? I hold in my hand a lady's beautiful silk handkerchief. It is covered with advertisements for the Festival of Britain. It is being used to boost British industry. Surrounding this handkerchief is a bold

  1125
  inscription, "Scotland for Ever." There are also pictures of the Palace of Holy-rood House, Edinburgh Castle, Iona Cathedral, Stirling Castle, Forth Bridge, Melrose Abbey Abbottsford and Burns' cottage.
  Immediately this silk handkerchief was given to me, as a patriotic Scot I felt inclined to purchase 50 of them to send to my Scottish friends in America. But stay. On the reverse side of that handkerchief I came across a little silk tab which said, "Made in Italy—cost 1s. each." Come to Bonnie Scotland via Italy! I am informed that the cheapest a silk handkerchief of this kind can be produced in this country is 3s. 11d. It is perfectly obvious that to be retailed at a profit at 1s. per handkerchief, it must be produced under sweated conditions. I shall have much pleasure in presenting this handkerchief to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor so that he may look into this matter.
  Finally, I would again congratulate my right hon. Friend on an excellent Budget and I can assure him that any criticism I have made has been made only in a desire to be helpful and constructive.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. David Eccles: One of the things which takes the asperity out of Parliamentary life is that so many of us have ties outside politics with hon. Gentlemen in other parties. It gives me great personal pleasure to congratulate the Chancellor on opening his first Budget. I should like to think that the clarity and courage of his speech are due in part to the school where he and I spent five years together under the best of headmasters.
  Mr. Rankin: The old school tie.
  Mr. Eccles: The old school tie is a very strong bond—and a good thing, too. We have had today an excellent maiden speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Teevan). It was short, straightforward and entirely fair—virtues which the House of Commons always appreciates. I am sorry to say that the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) is becoming more and more extravagant. He was more useful to us when he was rather more on the middle of the line. Now he talks about milk as being over-produced and I feel he will lose his following in the country.
  1126
  After all, the quantity of milk which is turned into butter has nothing to do with the price of milk. The Ministry of Food give the order about how much milk shall be turned into butter and if the hon. Member has a complaint against anyone it is against his own Front Bench.
  I do not know whether he ever goes outside a built-up area, but had he done so in the last three months I think his sympathy for the farmers might have been aroused. I cannot imagine starting a season in more depressing and difficult conditions than those of this year and I do not believe either side of this Committee endorses the attack which the hon. Member for Wednesbury made upon the agricultural industry.
  When Sir Stafford Cripps left the Treasury—and we are all sorry for the cause—his departure coincided with a momentous, a fearsome change in the British economy. My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Sir S. Holmes) truly remarked that we emerged from the war very poor and then for five years the insecure foundations of our standard of living were concealed under a policy of price stabilisation compounded of such various ingredients as subsidies, rent control, unrepresentative index numbers, the American and Canadian credits and Marshall Aid, exhortations to produce more and wage and dividend limitations. The whole paraphernalia was designed to underpin a range of arbitrary prices for the necessities of life by which alone the pretence was kept up that the cost of living hardly rose under a Socialist Administration.
  The Government got away with their hotchpotch of sedatives and sermons because production was increasing just fast enough to meet the Bill for their swollen expenditure and to leave a small annual increase in the goods available for consumption. Of course, if my right hon. Friends had been in charge of the nation's business the increase in consumption would have been markedly greater, and there would have been more of the things which people really want, such as meat and houses, but, as it was, the Socialist contraption—I cannot dignify it by the name of machine—just ticked over fast enough to prevent the public from losing confidence in the value of their money.
  But now the picture has altogether changed. The price stabilisation policy

  1127
  is in ruins. We can no more shore it up with fresh subsidies and fresh deceptions than we could put a tarpaulin over Coventry Cathedral and pretend it had not been bombed. As the Chancellor admits, we are in the middle of a spiral in the cost of living. Wages and prices are hopelessly adrift, and no one can tell when and at what altitude they will come to rest. Indeed, by the far most important question to ask about this Budget is whether the twist in the spiral which we are now experiencing is to be succeeded by another and another until the very basis of our society is eaten away by inflation.
  This situation is new. That is, it is new for Britain, though it has happened often on the Continent. Throughout the length and breadth of the United Kingdom everyone now expects prices to rise, and no end is in sight. This doubt—which is new—about the value of our money sets up new reactions to Government policy, and today the stock measures, such as more taxes and more exhortations designed to bring about deflation, will not have the effect they had even in Sir Stafford Cripps's time. What could be done when the value of money was taken for granted cannot be done now. Indeed, the strong probability is that tax increases of any kind will now stimulate fresh spending and more demands for increases in incomes unrelated to increases in output. Thus in these changed circumstances—and they are quite new—what was designed for deflation may turn out to be exactly the opposite—a powerful instrument of inflation.
  If I could be sorry for any Socialist Minister I should be for the new Chancellor. He took over his office just as the wounds inflicted upon our economy by his predecessors began to fester. The patient's temperature is now rising. Old remedies will not work. Marshall Aid, which brought millions of pounds worth of goods to this market to mop up our surplus purchasing power, has gone. Korea has immensely aggravated the trouble. So the new Chancellor has to do something unheard of in British history: he has to plan in peace-time for a fall in the standard of life of all sections of the people. We have seen in the last few years how the public will swallow atrociously bad government provided consumption is rising ever so slowly.
  1128
  But now, to have to put up with bad government and a planned fall in the standard of living—that is more than even the patient British will bear. A tremendous storm is brewing over the cost of living; all the artificial devices and all the protective wrappings so dear to the Socialists will be found useless in this tempest. Many of the old landmarks will be swept away, but one day we shall return, by hard work and British common sense, to that stability which comes from living within our income.
  In the meantime, the Chancellor has made proposals which seem to me wrongly conceived. His object has been to find resources for the defence programme. That is a terrific problem. We have not, like America, a reserve of industrial capacity; nor, like Italy, Belgium and Germany, a reserve of visible unemployed. It looks as though we have very little room for manoeuvre. That is the conclusion to the array of Government statistics, and the Chancellor endorsed that view. He counts on some increase in production, though he said very little about it; he counts on a once-for-all run down in the overseas balance; and then he plans to close the remaining inflationary gap through rising prices and increased taxation. I do not think he can do it. If the temper of the people is as I have described—angry because the Government do not know their own mind; angry with the rising prices—an increase in taxation may well re-create the inflationary gap, either by stimulating faster spending—most likely—or by slowing down production and savings.
  Therefore, while I concede that once this Committee has passed the Estimates we must find the money, I am opposed to the basic philosophy of this Budget, which is to increase the total of taxation in an attempt to check the rising cost of living. This is the old argument about the connection between the level of taxation and prices, referred to today by the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson), to whom we always listen with attention in these Budget debates.
  Ever since the war my hon. and right hon. Friends—and we miss Mr. Oliver Stanley, who was so firm and forceful on this very point—have maintained that the size of the Budget was too big and was in itself an inflationary force. Look

  1129
  at it as we will, our contention has been proved by events. The taxes on commodities and the taxes on wages have left the individual with less to spend in a period in which prices were rising slowly, and that has provoked him—perhaps I ought to say, more accurately, provoked his wife—to ask for a rise in pay and thus given the inflationary spiral another twist. There have been other taxes which have added to the pressure on the cost of living because they have slowed down production and savings.
  Then the enormous rate of spending by the Socialist Government has been thought to require, as a kind of lubricant, a policy of too abundant and too cheap money which, though it has been somewhat modified, to the credit of the present Chancellor, has continued to diminish the deflationary effect of the Budget surpluses. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) observed, the pressure on the cost of living of the average family began long before Korea. It was that pressure that made the Government call for the wage freeze. The claims put in by such groups as railwaymen, teachers, civil servants and postmen had nothing whatever to do with Korea. For a long time before war broke out they had been finding it hard to make both ends meet.
  Take, also, devaluation which occurred in 1949. That was a confession by the Government that under Socialism British costs and prices were driving our goods out of foreign markets. It is quite true that the aftermath of devaluation was helped by a revival in American business; but this lucky break for the Minister, because that is what it was—certainly did not stop the rise in sterling prices. Indeed, unless hon. Gentlemen opposite really believed that the dollar prices for raw materials would fall by the amount of our devaluation, then they must have known that to chop one-third off our currency would be followed by a large rise in our own cost of living.
  In fact, now, in April, 1951, we still have not reached the point where the devaluation consequences have been fully worked out. Korea has hardly begun to have its effect upon the cost of living. But there is one thing about devaluation which is perhaps not often realised—it put a time-limit on the wage freeze. It was an inevitable result that sooner or
  1130
  later wages would become unstuck, whether there had been a war in Korea or not. Korea has increased the pace but not altered the direction in which our price level was being hustled, pushed and driven by Socialism.
  Both devaluation and the wage freeze were acts of Government policy for which the Socialist party must accept full responsibility. They were forced to these measures because they had failed to restrain too much money chasing too few goods, and the biggest contribution to that failure was their own financial policy. In past debates, the party opposite and the hon. Member for Chesterfield in particular—he did it again today—have defended the gross size of the Budget on the grounds that the taxes were returned to the taxpayers in the form of social services. That is true, of course, but only of two-fifths of the Budget. It leaves out of account the millions wasted on schemes which never did a half-penny worth of good to any wage-earning family. How much did any of us get out of groundnuts and Gambia eggs? If we add the loss on those two schemes together, they come, I think to £37 million, which is almost twice the total given to the old age pensioners in this Budget.
  Mr. Benson: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. It is at least three-fifths that is returned to the taxpayers, and with regard to the loss on groundnuts, it was, it is true, £30 million, but that was spread over five years.
  Mr. Eccles: I do not want to argue that with the hon. Member, but the social services are to cost, I think, £1,600,000 out of a Budget of some £4,100,000.
  Mr. Benson: Transfer payments.
  Mr. Eccles: I said social services, not transfer payments. To go back to the spending on the social services, even if every penny had been wisely spent, the sheer magnitude of the post-war Budgets would have been inflationary because the transfer of such a huge proportion of the national income from individuals to the State causes acute resentment and sets up pressures on the price level which are irresistible.
  I suppose that we shall be told by the Financial Secretary—I remember the occasion when he used this point—that the citizen ought to be glad to have his money spent for him by the gentlemen in White-

  1131
  hall. We shall be told that it is scandalous if he makes a fuss about it and tries to shift the load by getting for himself a rise in pay, and, therefore, that the Budget should be framed to cater for men and women as they ought to be and not as they are. That is the kind of Socialist argument that seems to us to be divorced from reality and to ignore the lesson of history, which is clear enough, that Governments which disregard the ingrained habits and strong wishes of the people come to grief.
  If my submission is right about the size of post-war Budgets, it follows that it is highly dangerous to look for the resources for defence by increasing taxation. The same would be true about the measures adequate to halt the rise in prices once the increased costs of imports have worked their way through to the shops. I will try to illustrate this point by looking first at the main proposals in the Budget, and then giving a few modest suggestions for a different policy.
  Many Members have talked about the inflationary gap. My own view is that it is not as small as £150 million, at which the Chancellor put it. This is a very complicated argument, and I shall do my best to put it as simply as I can. The Committee will have noticed that last year Sir Stafford Cripps said that he must have a surplus on the conventional basis of £443 million. It turned out to be £720 million, but even that did not stop prices rising. This year, as I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said, the water is much rougher, and yet the Chancellor says that he needs a surplus of only £39 million on the conventional basis, which is £400 million less than last year. We can allow the right hon. Gentleman £200 million for the once-for-all run-down in the overseas balance. That still leaves him asking for a surplus of over £200 million less than last year and saying that it will close the inflationary gap.
  As the Chancellor very fairly admitted, we cannot make an accurate calculation of this gap but have to use our judgment. I think that his judgment is wrong, and I will give one example why. Surely one of the most vital assumptions in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was that personal savings this year will be as big as last year. Does any Member
  1132
  really believe that to be so? I am referring to personal savings and not to company savings. When we take into account not only the difficulties of putting by new money, but the certainty that in a period of rising prices and taxes people will draw on their capital more than they did last year, how can the Chancellor of the Exchequer estimate personal savings to remain where they were last year?
  There are several other very weak points in his calculations, one of which has been referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot: to say that the £73 million it is estimated the increase in Income Tax will yield will do the job of closing the £73 million of the inflationary gap is sheer nonsense. A large proportion will be found from people saving less or it will come out of company reserves. In the same way, the increase in the Profits Tax will not cut the demand for goods by the amount calculated. A very sizeable proportion of the tax will come out of company reserves.
  I believe that industry now realises, that with the vastly increasing replacement costs, that it will be desperately short of capital, and so every extra tax upon profits today stimulates industrialists to pass on the tax to the consumer in higher prices. They feel they must do it to protect the capital in their businesses, and, therefore, taxes of this kind, like the Profits Tax, whatever one may think about them in theory, will, in practice, raise the cost of living. They will have the very opposite effect to that which hon. Members on both sides of the Committee desire to see achieved.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) made a very good point about initial allowances. The small tramp steamer owners, who have lately placed orders for new ships, counting on the high freight rates they have been earning, will be in a difficult position, and if it is possible the Government should make an exception in favour of the shipping industry.
  I want to turn to the Chancellor's sins of omission, because I think that the things which he has left undone might well be the elements of a sound policy in the very difficult circumstances of today. If the Committee will allow me I will briefly refer to three points—credit policy, restrictive practices, and economies

  1133
  in Government expenditure. The Chancellor spoke about using the fiscal and monetary policy. I think monetary policy came into the Economic Survey for the first time this year, for which we are grateful, but he did not convince me yesterday that he would use the monetary weapon really seriously. Of course, in dealing with the inflationary gap credit policy is a substitute for taxation. It is much wiser to limit the amount of money going into circulation than to let it get there and then take it back again in taxes
  A firmer credit policy in the present conditions of super-boom would, I believe, actually increase employment, in the sense that it would make it more desirable to keep down costs by finding a full week's work for everybody It would make employers more careful about their reserves, less willing to embark on marginal projects, and more willing to turn over to defence production. My noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Barnet discussed the interest rate, and I hope they will not take it amiss if I differ slightly on this very technical subject. It is often said that a rise of a half or 1 per cent. in the long-term interest rate is the thing to go for, because it would weed out the less desirable capital projects. I think that is too narrow a view of credit policy. The key factor is to put a limit on the quantity of credit available and not simply to screen borrowers on some qualitative principle.
  Today, anybody who possesses a planner's certificate gets his money. The cash is always there provided that the borrower has the backing at first or second hand of a Government Department. The joint stock banks find the cash for the increases in their advances by letting their bills run off or calling in money from the market. In former days this action put a squeeze on the money market, but not now. Today, the discount houses go to the Bank of England, which automatically replenishes their cash by buying from them the Bills they could not sell to the commercial banks. The Chancellor will appreciate what I mean when I say that the ghosts of Tooke and Fullerton reign supreme in the Bank's parlour today. In this way, the authorities are still passive about the volume
  1134
  of money. They give the market what it wants, and such qualitative control over credit as there is is not enough. The time has come for the joint stock banks and the discount market to feel a doubt whether the cash will actually be forthcoming.
  The right hon. Member for Montgomery very rightly stressed the need to abolish restrictive practices. There cannot ever have been a time when it was more desirable that the Government should make a frontal attack upon a defensive mechanism which is now out of date. The right hon. Gentleman asked why they did not do it. I will attempt to give the answer. The reason is that Ministers have tied their own hands. From the Prime Minister downwards they tell industry that when the Conservatives are back in office mass unemployment will return. Of course, if they go about saying that every man's job will be in danger when the party which obviously has the majority of the country wins the next election, they cannot expect full co-operation in getting rid of restrictive practices. Political jibes at profits and management—the Chancellor is an exception—have won votes in the short run. We fully agree that that is so, but they will not win them in the long run because both sides of industry are learning, partly from the Anglo-American productivity teams that good management, high productivity and a good rate of profit are the basis of good conditions and high wages in individual firms.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: The hon. Gentleman is making out a very good case. I am familiar with most of the trade unions and I know of no restrictive practices worth talking about that still apply in the workshops. Can the hon. Gentleman give us examples?
  Mr. Eccles: I could give the hon. Gentleman examples from the building trade and the printing trade, but I have promised to sit down within a certain time. I hope to have another opportunity. I now come to the economies in Government expenditure about which the Chancellor threw out a challenge last night. He spoke on this point about honesty, frankness and morality, and expressed the wish that we should all observe those virtues in dealing with the cuts in Government expenditure. I would like to tell the right hon. Gentleman that those

  1135
  virtues have to begin on his Bench, and that he himself has transgressed against them because he has presented to the public a false choice, a choice which is thoroughly deceitful.
  He said to the public last night: "You have the choice of maintaining intact the social services together with the existing level of taxation." That was one choice. The other was to cut both the social services and taxation, with the implication that the cut in taxation would relieve the rich and the cut in social services would fall upon the poor. We need not bother about the implication because that was pure party politics. We could cut, if we wished to, the social services, and give the whole of the savings to the poorest families in the land.
  We could abolish the £400 million food subsidies and put all that money to pensions and family allowances. That is a matter of policy. The innuendo in the Chancellor's speech was not very worthy, but that is not the important point. The important point is that there is no choice between maintaining the social services as they are and cutting them. The only choice is whether we cut them through rising prices or whether we cut them deliberately. The Chancellor's presentation of the choice does not live up to the virtues which he expressed in his peroration yesterday.
  What is the fair thing to do if we are to give the public the facts upon which to choose between the two evils? It is a choice of evils—either rising prices or cutting civilian expenditure. Both hurt. We cannot pay for the last war and get ready to prevent another without being hurt. The question: How are we to be hurt less? The only fair thing to do—and the only people to do it are those with responsibility of office, because it would not be taken as a serious proposition from anyone without responsiblity of office—would be to say to the people. "Here is what would happen if we cut 10 per cent. off expenditure other than the Consolidated Fund. This is what it would mean in changes in policy in social services and also in reliefs to those affected by the cut in expenditure." And the statement should be accompanied by some calculation of its effect upon prices.
  1136
  Until that is done, there is no fair choice before the public. The public are led to believe that it is possible to go on with the social services as they are. That is not possible. The welfare State is being eaten away by rising prices, and I very much fear that one of the effects of the general financial and economic policy which we are now discussing is that the benefits of the Welfare State will be cut by more, and considerably more, through a loss in the value of money than would be the case if more courage could be brought to the paring of the Budget. Hon. Gentlemen must remember that even today the real value of a savings certificate is declining three or four times as fast as the interest is accruing. That is a very serious thing and it must be stopped. We must get back to stable money as soon as we can.
  The policy that I should advocate in place of increased taxation, which I believe to be inflationary, is a combination of a stricter credit policy with large Government economies, accompanied, of course, by reliefs to those who need them most. Of all times in our budgetary history, is it not absurd today still to be paying out money through the social services to those who do not need it? It is ridiculous that we should waste money in that way. Let us combine credit policy with economies and make every conceivable effort to raise production, and particularly by an attack on restrictive practices.
  There is also something to be done in the British Commonwealth and Empire. If one reads the Economic Survey it becomes very clear that we are rapidly becoming larger and larger debtors of the sterling area. That is all right provided that we and our main creditors, the leading members of the family, are really running the business together, but I do not see enough signs of that. I believe that sterling can still be, and is, the greatest currency in the free world apart from the dollar—it may be better than the dollar before we know where we are—but only provided that the raw material resources of the British Empire are properly co-ordinated with the manufacturing industries here. If we turn to our people and say, "You need not lose this great slice off your standard of living, but for the time being we must have a sterner monetary policy and some Government

  1137
  economies and we will go all out to mobilise the resources of the Empire and bring them in," would there not be a general response?
  What I dislike about the Budget is that it appears to have no faith that the people will respond if they should be given a choice of a tough expansionist policy instead of this policy which is really one of restriction wherever the Chancellor dares to clamp down. I wish the Government would bring in such a policy, because the sooner the better. But what chance is there of that? We are divided in a way in which such a policy cannot be put through the House of Commons. That is only one more reason why my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the House are right to press for an election. The situation is so grave, the chances of the whole price level getting out of hand are so great, that we ought to go to the people with a courageous policy, and say "Will you take it, or not?"
  9.31 p.m.
  Mr. Crosland: The hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) has made, both in this House and the country as a whole, a considerable and distinguished reputation on two counts: first for making annual prophecies of gloom of a pessimism unsurpassed anywhere, and, secondly, for being consistently wrong in the prophecies he makes. I seriously suggest to him that, having been so steadily wrong year after year in saying that unless we have higher rates of interest, unless we have more disinflation and more Government economy, the welfare State and full employment are in jeopardy, he should review the whole of his economic and financial philosophy and decide whether it is not there and not in Government policy that the major error lies.
  The hon. Gentleman certainly made clear that a fundamental difference in economic policy exists between the two sides of the House, because the general tenor of his speech was that during the last few years, despite our gradually being able to take off rationing, despite the fact that price control has gradually been safely lifted, despite more competitive conditions of trading, we are still in a state of inflation. This can only mean that in his view the general level of demand, despite the fact that total de-
  1138
  mand and total supply are more or less balanced, ought to be cut down below the level at which full employment would be possible. I take that very seriously. I do not wish to make any false accusations against the hon. Gentleman or any other Member opposite, but it fits in with the eulogies which he and others who sit on the Benches opposite have uttered about the Belgian economy, which has been in a state of under-employment since the end of the war.
  Many compliments have been paid to the Chancellor, and I wish to add my own offering. On both sides of the Committee it is agreed that his speech was ingenious and well delivered and that he put before us an extremely impressive Budget. The point I wish to single out—it was singled out by the Leader of the Opposition last night—is its honesty and political courage. Even if the Tories were to come back in the next 10 years or so, it would still remain to the credit of the Labour Government that their Budgets have been marked by a very high degree of honesty and courage. The opportunity was always present to introduce concessions which would have been popular, at the expense of the disinflationary policy, but successive Chancellors have refused to do that. It stands to our credit and is in extremely pleasing contrast to the talk of 300,000 houses a year and reducing the cost of living which we hear from hon. Members opposite.
  I also think that the view which the Chancellor takes of the temper of the British people is much more attractive than that of the hon. Member for Chippenham. If he thinks that the British people are angry with the British Government because their standard of living is likely to be cut in consequence of rearmament, I would say that I think that the British people are very much better than he thinks.
  Everyone agrees that the Budget this year had two purposes, that the Chancellor had two tasks. The first was to achieve a total surplus which will enable us to finance re-armament without undergoing a recurrence of inflationary pressure, and the second was to distribute the burden of re-armament between the different sections of the population as fairly as possible.
  Everyone who has spoken or written on the Budget since the Chancellor's

  1139
  speech yesterday—except the hon. Member for Chippenham—has agreed that the first task has been adequately carried out. There was a great deal of speculation, as there always is, before the Budget as to the likely size of the inflationary gap; and it is rather striking that the figure which the Chancellor gave of £150 million was the figure which was also quoted in the estimates beforehand made by "The Times," the "Economist" and the "Financial Times." Apart from the hon. Member for Chippenham, there has been very striking agreement about the size of the gap which the Chancellor had to cover.
  In order to cover it, he has been compelled to collect from the public a sum of £150 million extra in taxation. It is particularly sad for him that in his first Budget he should have to collect this extra taxation when he might have expected, with any luck at all, that the first Budget be presented would also have been the first post-war Budget of an easier kind. There is no doubt that but for the war in Korea, this would have been a Budget of concession and relaxation. The Economic Survey made it clear that our post-war recovery had been successfully accomplished by the middle of last year. We had achieved a surplus in our foreign balance and a dollar surplus even before the Korean war broke out, and had largely restored the capital wealth lost during the Second World War. It was clear that, those things having been accomplished, we could have looked forward to a long period in which rising productivity every year could have given an improving standard of life to the people, instead of having to go into either higher exports or capital investment. However, the Chancellor was not in that lucky position, and therefore had this task of extracting another £150 million in taxation.
  Many people, including a number of hon. Members on the opposite side of the Committee, have been pleasantly surprised that the figure of the inflationary gap was not a great deal higher than in fact it was. I certainly thought that £150 million was by no means too generous a figure. I thought the Chancellor was very wise not to show the gap lower than that. Even though he put it at £150 million, people have been relieved and surprised
  1140
  that it was not higher. Although the hon. Member for Chippenham will not agree, I will say that the reason the gap is not higher is due to the basic strength and underlying health of the British economy at the moment.
  If we consider the extent to which our capital strength has been restored since the end of the war; the rising productivity going on every year—twice that of the inter-war period—despite all the talk about the effect of taxation on incentives, the will to work and all the rest of it, and the flabbiness of the economy; if we consider, on top of that, the fact that in 1950, for the first time for 20 years, we had a large surplus on foreign account, and also consider the dollar surplus as well, it is clear that by the end of last year the economy had reached a stage when it was able to bear this additional burden of re-armament without any very serious or very savage cut in the standard of life. Because of this underlying strength, the burden is only to be at the sum of £150 million.
  Apart from the hon. Member for Chippenham, I think that almost everybody who commented on the Budget agreed that the Chancellor was right to keep approximately at that figure. The hon. Member for Chippenham pointed out that, in addition to this inflationary gap, there was the further burden imposed on the people as a whole by the fact of rising prices. Nobody in his senses—certainly not the Chancellor—denies that prices are rising and are likely to go on rising still further. The only dispute is on the cause of the rising prices. Apparently both the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), and the hon. Member for Chippenham still think that the main reason for the rise in prices has something to do with Government expenditure at home. That is a theory which is really quite fantastic and which finds no sort of support whatever in the facts.
  If this theory was true, it is inexplicable that over the last few months, in the last year and, indeed, since the end of the war, prices have risen at least as fast in the United States of America with low taxation and low Government expenditure. Prices have risen much faster in some European countries, with far less taxation and Government expenditure than they have in this country.
  Mr. Eccles: That argument is such nonsense that it must be contradicted. What matters is whether prices and wages have both risen. In the United States the amount of dollars which the ordinary wage earner gets has increased by considerably more than the prices. He is much better off. He can buy more. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion is not true.
  Mr. Crosland: The hon. Member must distinguish, as I know he does, between what is happening to real wages and what is happening to prices. We could certainly have a separate argument about the behaviour of real wages since 1945. I think that it will be found that the increase in real wages in the United States does not far exceed the increase in real wages in this country. In any case, the point made by the hon. Member for Chippenham was that there was a direct relationship between the price level and the level of Government expenditure and taxation. As soon as one looks at the experience of other countries, it is clear that there is no direct relationship at all between the level of Government expenditure and the level of prices.
  Mr. Eccles: The hon. Member is an economist. I should have thought he would have paid attention to Professor Colin Clark who examined this situation in almost every democracy and came to the opposite conclusion to that reached by the hon. Gentleman—namely, that when a proportion of the national income greater than some figure which I forget, but a good deal lower than ours, is taken, then in every case that has been followed by a rise in prices.
  Mr. Crosland: I am perfectly familiar with the article by Professor Colin Clark. I am afraid that I shall irritate my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), who is a friend of Professor Colin Clark, but I am bound to say that his evidence was particularly slender and, for what it is worth, his conclusion is not generally accepted among economists. One can only settle this point by examining what is happening in the various countries of the world, and deciding whether the price level is rising faster in the countries with high expenditure or in the countries with low expenditure. Anybody who looks round post-war Europe, or the post-war world as a whole, will conclude that the rise in
  1142
  the price level of any country is dependent on quite different factors.
  Nobody disputes in his heart of hearts that the rise in the price level is clearly due to world inflation which is affecting every single country in the world in precisely the same way as it is affecting this country. The idea that the Government can be blamed because the prices of wool and rubber are rising as they are rising now, is surely not one that can be seriously suggested. The theory of the hon. Member for Chippenham that high prices and rising prices can be cured by disinflation, or deflation, will surely not stand up to an examination of what has happened in Italy since the end of the war.
  In Italy there was a very strong inflation of prices with a very high degree of unemployment. In view of the experience of Italy. I should not have thought that anybody would have said that rising prices could be cured even by deflation below the level of full employment, let alone by a little more disinflation.
  Mr. Eccles: The hon. Gentleman puts into my mouth words I never used. I never spoke of deflation below the level of full employment. That is the kind of thing which hon. Gentlemen go about saying in the country. I did not say tonight that deflation would produce unemployment. That is absolutely untrue.
  Mr. Crosland: The hon. Member tries to get out of this a great deal too easily. He has consistently argued over the last few years that rising prices in this country were due, in fact, to inflation in the sense that demand was greater than the supply and he said that even when rationing was ending and price controls were coming off. What on earth that means, if it does not mean that full employment causes rising prices, I fail entirely to see. Most people on either side of the Committee who have commented on the Budget have agreed that the Chancellor has carried through the first of his tasks, which was that of achieving a surplus in order to prevent inflation.
  His second task, it will probably be agreed on both sides of the Committee, but certainly on this side, was to make sure that the extra burden of taxation was shared between different groups and sections of the community as fairly and

  1143
  equitably as possible. The first point to notice here, and it is one which is concealed by some of the phrases used in this debate, is the fact that there has been no cut at all in the level of the social services or in the structure of the welfare State.
  A great number of people feared that re-armament at the present level could not be carried through at all without a serious cut in the social services. In fact, that has turned out to be too gloomy a view, and we are managing to do it without a cut in the social services, and even with a small increase in them, because the Estimates and the Chancellor's proposals for the coming year show that expenditure on education is up by £8 million, expenditure on old age pensions is increased by £19 million, and the total expenditure on the Health Service, after balancing the higher expenditure on hospitals against the new charges for dentures and spectacles, is up by £7 million, making a total increased expenditure on the social services of £35 million in the coming year, as compared with last year.
  I do not think that anybody can deny that it is a very remarkable achievement to be able to find the money for an enormous programme of armaments without any cuts in the level of the social services, and I certainly do not believe that many people in this country would think that that would have been possible under a Tory Government. Despite this fact that the social services have been kept up to their previous levels, there is still the necessity of imposing another £150 million in new taxation. Here, again, the essential principle upon which a Labour Chancellor would act would be that this extra burden should not be shared out equally between rich and poor, but proportionately, according to whether people are rich or poor, and I believe that that is the policy which the Chancellor has followed.
  If we consider his decisions one by one, we find that they add up to a genuine attempt to share the burden equitably over the country. His first decision was to increase the Profits Tax, which will involve a cut in shareholders' income in the coming year amounting to £35 million—£5 million in higher taxation, and £30 million in respect of money which the Chancellor estimates will now be put into
  1144
  company reserves instead of being distributed in dividends. The background to this is the increase in dividends which has recently been taking place to the extent of from 10 to 14 per cent. over last year. We on this side of the Committee take the view that it is intolerable that, at this particular moment, dividends should increase faster than any other form of money income in this country.
  When the Chancellor referred to this fact in his speech yesterday, one hon. Member opposite interrupted and said, "What about wages?" It is, of course, perfectly true that wages have in many cases already risen, and probably will go on rising during the coming months. It is extremely difficult to see what follows from that fact. Of course, there is no sign that wages are likely to rise as fast as dividends have risen recently. Even if there were, so what? On this side of the Committee we take the view that there is not the slightest reason why dividends should always be allowed to rise as fast as or faster than wages. Certainly the shareholder has not as high a claim as the wage earner to any increase in the national income.
  I agree entirely with the Chancellor, as I think will most of my hon. Friends, that if one is going to run a mixed economy, profits are important—if they are a genuine reward for genuine enterprise and efficiency. That is very different from saying, what we on this side certainly do not say, that at a time of re-armament shareholders' incomes should be allowed to increase as fast as they have been increasing in the first quarter of this year. Therefore, I am extremely glad the Chancellor has imposed this extra tax. I do not agree at all with the argument of the hon. Member for Chippenham and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot that all this increase in the taxation of dividends is likely to come from company savings.
  The first tax I have mentioned is a tax which, in fact, falls entirely on shareholders' incomes. The second is the increase in Income Tax. Taking into account the larger children's and widows' allowances, by far the greater part of this £73 million which is to be collected this year in Income Tax will come from the middle and upper ranks. It will not come from the wage earning classes as a whole, certainly not the very poor section of the wage earning class. It is perfectly clear

  1145
  from the figures, on a rough estimate, that three-quarters of that £73 million will come from incomes of over £600 or £700 a year.
  Depreciation allowances only concern one year from now, and they are only a cut in corporate savings and not in personal incomes. As to the extra Purchase Tax on motor cars and, at any rate, television sets, it is very likely that that tax will be paid largely by people who are at least comfortably off.
  Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Go and have a look at the housing estates.
  Mr. Crosland: At any rate, people who are buying new motor cars today are not exactly the lower paid workers. If one could make a rough calculation and say the whole of the Profits Tax and three-quarters of the Income Tax, the whole of the motor car tax and a half or even a quarter of the extra Purchase Tax on radio sets, television sets and electrical appliances fall on the better-off groups of the country as a whole, one reaches a figure of £105 million or so increased taxation, which will fall on people with fairly comfortable incomes.
  Against that, the increases of taxation which will fall on those people whose incomes are small will be the whole of the Entertainments Duty. It will fall on people who go to the cinema and who are assumed to be the less well paid groups. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Just for the sake of argument, let us assume that the whole of the Entertainments Duty falls on them, and half the tax on radio sets and electrical appliances. Then let us subtract from that the quite substantial concessions in respect of Purchase Tax on household articles. One then gets a figure of extra taxation paid for by the lower-income groups of the community of £8 million to £10 million. Other additional taxes, such as the Petrol Duty or the remaining quarter of the higher Income Tax, can be considered neutral, in the sense either of being paid more or less equally by all classes, or of falling on groups neither very highly nor very badly paid. On that rough basis of calculation, one gets £105 million of new taxation imposed on the better-off groups, as against only £8 million to £10 million imposed on the poorer groups,
  1146
  with a certain sum which can be considered as neutral from this point of view.
  I say seriously that this represents an extremely fair and equitable distribution of the burden of re-armament. I do not say that these calculations are accurate down to the last million pounds, obviously. [Interruption.] At any rate. I can say at least I am more modest in claiming any infallibility for my judgment than is the hon. Member for Chippenham. In view of these figures, how the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot was able to claim that the bulk of the burden was being placed on the shoulders of those least able to bear it is, to say the least, extremely hard to see. Virtually none of the new taxes is falling on the worst paid. They are falling almost entirely on people better off and able to pay them. The only concession made—on old age pensions—goes clearly to the section of the population which needs it most.
  For these reasons we on this side of the Committee—and I think this is the general view—have no hesitation at all in supporting the Budget. I think hon. Members on both sides agree that the Budget is a serious, constructive and honest attempt to bridge the gap and to make sure that sufficient purchasing power is withdrawn to prevent inflation arising from re-armament. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot made no complaint that too small an inflationary gap had been fixed and too small a Budget surplus had been achieved. I think there is fairly wide agreement on that.
  In addition, we on this side of the Committee support the Budget strongly for this second reason: this distribution of taxation has placed the burden fairly on the people who are able to bear the bulk of the burden. We on this side of the House believe that fair shares is a much more important principle in times of scarcity and economic difficulty than it is in times of plenty and economic ease.
  Ordered, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Mr. Sparks.]
  Resolutions to be reported Tomorrow; Committee also report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  HOUSING (HUTMENTS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Sparks.]
  9.58 p.m.
  Mr. Deedes: I would like to turn from theory to reality. My object tonight is to call attention to a particular aspect, I think a rather disquieting aspect, of our housing problem—that is, the camps of Service huts, mainly Nissen huts, still being used as dwelling houses in many parts of the country. I want to say a few words about the general problem of these camps, but my principal concern is about a camp at Hothfield, near Ashford, where some 200 of these huts are now occupied by 700 people. I have reason to think that the problem is regarded not unsympathetically by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Local Government and Planning and by the Minister and I am most anxious to avoid over-stating or over-dramatising the case to a point of controversy. My object is to see these camps progressively eliminated as quickly as possible, and I hope that that is also the object of the Parliamentary Secretary.
  The history of these camps is simply stated. They are relics of the camps created mainly during the years 1940 and 1941 through the immense and rapid expansion of Home Forces in this country. In passing, I would say that I have lived in a number of them and even had a hand in the erection of one or two so I know that they were built very rapidly as a military urgency and were not sited or constructed as suitable residences for very long.
  It being Ten o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed. "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Sparks.]
  Mr. Deedes: It was only to be expected that local authorities, with their pressing housing needs immediately after the war, should turn to these camps. I think I am right in saying that it was with the full authority of the Ministry of Health, then responsible, that many of these camps were converted into dwelling-houses under the terms of Circular No. 20—I think the only circular issued—of 1946. The
  1148
  original object, I suppose, was that they should still be transit camps, that they should be camps for people on the local authorities' housing waiting lists who would, in a certain time, be given a proper house. I think it is well to bear in mind that in the first place these houses were occupied by people who were in desperation. They were not occupied by these people from choice.
  Five years have elapsed since the plan was passed and many of the huts are now at least 10 years old. I was informed the other day by the Minister of Local Government and Planning, in answer to a Question, that there are still 37,000 huts in occupation; that is, all huts—Service huts and Nissen huts. I do not know what the rate of elimination has been. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary may be able to say a few words about that, but what principally concerns me is whether the rate of elimination is keeping pace with the deterioration. On that I think there are some grounds for disquiet.
  I want to refer more specifically to this camp at Hothfield, which I think is typical of many, but which I have had the opportunity to inspect fairly thoroughly. However good the tenants may be—and much depends upon the tenants—these huts and their surroundings do not improve with the passage of time. One of their main defects is that they suffer inevitably from the dividing lines between the local, the regional and the central authorities on one particularly important point—and that is, to spend enough money to keep them habitable but not to spend too much and not to do too much to divert supplies and labour from the main housing drive, in the first place, nor to make the huts a permanent feature. Paradoxically, therefore, the better the maintenance of these huts, the more it tends to perpetuate the problem of their existence.
  In that kind of administrative twilight these people are now living. I want to give the example of this camp, although I think it is typical of many. On the one hand, in this camp there are no established roads and there is no street lighting of any kind. It was judged that the outlay on street lighting was not justified by the length of time the camp had to exist. On the other hand, the roofing of the huts, which had rusted, has been carried out at some expense—I think £30 a hut—and

  1149
  secondary walls have been built, also at some expense, with a view to eliminating damp. Tenants pay 10s. a week for three rooms or 12s. a week for four rooms.
  None of this patchwork—and it is patchwork—can remove the real defects and discomforts which are inseparable from such flimsy dwellings. The sewerage as I saw it is admittedly adequate. The rainwater drainage is nil and, as a result, every hut is surrounded by the water which lands on and flows off the roof. This is drawn up through the extremely thin foundations of the hut by the warmth inside, causing condensation and damp of a most serious character—probably the worst feature of these huts and the worst feature of such huts generally. As a result bedding, clothing, perambulators, childrens' clothing and so on are soaking wet, particularly at this time of the year. Further, these huts suffer from appalling draughts, with which anyone who occupied them during the war will be familiar.
  Remarkable efforts have been made by the tenants here—and, I have no doubt, elsewhere—aided by an admirable tenants association to do their best with the materials at their disposal. The worst conditions here are not due to individuals—as sometimes happens elsewhere—but to circumstances outside the control of anyone living in the camp. I have no idea what the life of one of these huts is supposed to be. They have stood now for 10 years, and I should think it possible that another five years would be an optimistic estimate of their future existence. It is clear that in this particular scheme, therefore, we have to envisage clearance at a rate of something like 50 huts a year, or one a week. I may say that the rate of elimination at the moment is nothing like on that scale, and, therefore, one is disquieted about whether deterioration is outpacing elimination.
  Replacement of the huts with houses is a job for the local authorities, and I am not addressing the hon. Gentleman on that particular point, but at this stage, as I see it, at the half-way mark of this scheme, initiated in 1946, I think he ought to consider, and that his right hon. Friend ought to consider, the possibility of fresh directions, fresh guidance, to the local authorities as to the long-term objectives to be kept in mind in relation to these schemes. I would ask him to consider
  1150
  that, because I think at this moment a note of urgency would not come amiss. In a letter which the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to write to me on the subject, he said:
  "You may rest assured, moreover, that he needs of these districts"—
  that is, districts with huts—
  "will be taken into account in considering the allocations of houses which are made from time to time to local authorities."
  I think that if the hon. Gentleman could repeat something on the lines of that assurance it might act as a spur, an incentive, to the local authorities concerned.
  I have been addressing the hon. Gentleman particularly in his capacity under the first part of his Ministry's title, Local Government; and now I would address him on the subject of the second part of the title, namely, Planning. Ashford, only a mile from Hothfield, is one of the towns scheduled for local development—considerable development—which, we hope, will eventually nearly double the population of the town. Everybody, I think, welcomes that, and the advent of light industries, and so on, and the consequent prosperity. But one is entitled to add a word of warning, I think, with particular application to these hutted camps; no doubt, it is applicable elsewhere, too.
  This investment ought not to be allowed to outstrip the progress made with housing, and I think that a town which has still on its outskirts 200 Nissen huts with 700 inhabitants, including 260 children, cannot afford socially very rapid industrial development until the huts have been eliminated. I think the two, housing and industrial development, should proceed pari passu as far as possible; and I hope that the Ministry will watch this particularly in Ashford, though no doubt the warning applies elsewhere as well.
  In conclusion, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will indicate that the Ministry is alive to the considerable social problems involved—and there are social problems involved when people have lived for as long as some of these people have lived in huts of this kind. I hope that he will recognise the fact that we are dealing here with what, in fact, is a wasting asset—an asset which cannot, with the best will in the world, be maintained more than another few years, and that we are also dealing with a community which, I suggest, is the worst housed community

  1151
  anywhere in the country—none, I think, is in worse conditions than these—and so deserving, I think, of the most strenuous efforts which, between us, we can bring to bear upon this problem.
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Williams: I should like to add a few words to what my hon. Friend has said, because from an experience I had only last week I believe the feeling against these Nissen huts to be very great. I was looking at some condemned houses in my constituency, which, I hasten to say, were not council houses, and their condition was worse than anything I had seen in the East End of London where I was for a considerable time before the war. In one house there was more cardboard in the windows than panes of glass; there were holes two or three inches deep and the ceiling was sagging by a couple of feet. When I took a local councillor along to look at these houses, the good lady who was the tenant, for whom we promised to do what we could, immediately said: "Oh, please sir, don't put us in a Nissen hut." That shows that a lot of people have a great horror of Nissen huts.
  Those who live in Nissen huts are having, to say the least of it, a very tiresome time. No doubt it is better to have a roof over one's head than to have nothing, but many of these huts are a disgrace to the country. My hon. Friend referred to the drips of water from the roof. That is caused because many of the huts have corrugated iron roofs, and we know how there is condensation from corrugated iron. These drips of water very often fall on to the bed of the owner, and even on to the cot of his child. Living in those conditions must do great harm to family life.
  Many of the huts have concrete floors, and if a tenant lays linoleum on a concrete floor it very soon perishes, which means not only that the tenant has lost the money he has spent on the linoleum, but also that the place immediately looks very ramshackle. Washing is extremely difficult in some that I have seen myself, because many have no interior washing facilities. People have to go out to a communal wash place, and in weather such as we are now experiencing tempers can well become frayed after walking
  1152
  through the rain to perform ablutions properly. As my hon. Friend pointed out, the roadways are very bad, and in the winter some of these people have to walk not on a proper track but on little pathways made of cinders only.
  It may be that living in these huts is better than living with in-laws or sharing a cooker with a couple of other families, but morale must be breaking down in some of these Nissen huts. A man cannot go and do a real job of work if he leaves his home knowing that his wife and children are in these bad conditions. When at night he returns to these conditions he cannot be in the best of tempers, as he should be. I feel that, not only is the family being broken up but men and women who live in these huts are probably not doing a real day's work because their morale is so low.
  Originally, £250 was allowed to be spent on a hut. That work has long since worn out, and many of these huts are now in a very bad state of repair. In fact, they are just like condemned property, and councils are unwilling to spend money on improving them because they know that these huts, like condemned property, are not meant to last for a long time. In any case, I think I am right in saying that £50 is the amount that can now be spent on a hut, and that does not go very far in keeping these huts up to the mark. Nissen huts are to be found only in the worst areas. In those areas the people have to be re-housed. That often means that they have to be re-housed at the expense of other people waiting for houses. The appeal which I make is that something should be done for these people.
  In my own area, the local council has been successful in clearing away many of these huts, and there are now only a few left in the area. They were originally occupied by squatters who came from outside the area of the council, which made it very difficult for the council to deal with them. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary if he can grant special permits to allow councils which have this Nissen hut problem to build more houses to meet the needs of these people.
  I know that the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of this problem, and that he is sympathetic, and I hope that he will do something to meet the case which

  1153
  has been put to him so forcibly by my hon. Friend.
  10.16 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Local Government and Planning (Mr. Lindgren): I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes), not only for raising this matter in the very pleasant way in which he has done, but for extending to me the courtesy, which is not always extended on these Adjournment debates, of letting me know the general line of his approach to this matter. That, of course, enables one to be more competent in dealing with the points raised.
  These camps fall into two groups. As the war came to an end, a number of redundant camps were given up by the Service Departments. Hostels were also given up by the Minister of Agriculture and other Departments. These camps and hostels were offered to local authorities to meet the demand for housing. That was done in January, 1946. It was left to the local authorities to decide whether these hutted camps were worth conversion and adaptation for housing, and whether the needs of their areas were such as to require this accommodation.
  Limits were set on the conversion costs of these temporary buildings, and I think that everyone will agree that it was right that it should be so. Huts were divided into two categories for the purpose of setting these limits—those that had a life of 10 years and those that had a life of five years. The huts vary greatly in type. Some are built of brick, some of concrete blocks, some of asbestos sheeting, some are wooden, and there are also these Nissen huts. The Nissen huts form only a very small proportion.
  I readily agree that they are the least satisfactory because corrugated iron rusts and deteriorates. The huts often require re-roofing and there is a tendency for condensation which is aggravated where there is not good ventilation. Apart from the huts which were offered to and accepted by the local authorities because of their siting and suitability, there followed in August, 1946, and the following months the vacation of camps by the Service Departments; and as the various Departments walked out, in walked the squatters, who have been referred to tonight by the hon. Member for Tonbridge (Mr. G. Williams). Hundreds and
  1154
  perhaps thousands of families walked into Army camps as the Service Departments vacated them.
  We were immediately faced with the problem of having people going into this accommodation which had not been prepared for them and which the local authorities had deemed to be unsuitable on grounds of siting, from a public health point of view and for other reasons. However, these people walked into these camps and, recognising their reasons, we had to do something about it. The then Ministry of Health approached the local authorities and asked them whether they would take over these camps and be responsible for public health, conversions and administration in addition to the other accommodation they had already taken over for their housing purposes.
  The local authorities responded magnificently, and their officers, in particular, have done a wonderful job. The Government have accepted all along the full cost of the conversions, maintenance and administration of these camps. The local authorities bear the cost of the services they provide, and they, of course, receive rates for them. I am not suggesting that the rates they receive on these properties meet their costs. They are low-rated, but the same applies to quite a number of their properties; in fact, it applies to most working-class properties in any town.
  I wish to refer to something which the hon. Member raised in a letter, although he did not refer to it in his speech. Under the heading "Emergency Housing Costs," the figure of £15 million is quoted in the Department's Vote as the cost of these services. The hon. Member says that this appears to be a very high figure. But this figure is a gross charge. It covers requisitioned buildings as well as these camps for the whole of England, and it does not take into account appropriations in aid—in other words, the rents received from the tenants. The cost to the taxpayer of these camps has been £1,197,000 for 1949, £936,000 for 1950 and £804,000 for 1951. There are in England and Wales 37,000 families concerned, and therefore £800,000 cannot be said by any means to be excessive.
  To put it at its best, this accommodation is sub-standard, and it is pretty grim for these people to have to live under such conditions. It is a grim thought

  1155
  that people prefer even these low standard Nissen huts to the accommodation they have left, or have to live in them because they have no other accommodation. These camps will have to continue in existence for some considerable time—until we can get new houses built for these families. The object will be first of all to eliminate the worst of the huts as the people can be rehoused.
  Mr. Deedes: It is rather important to establish how long these huts are to continue in use. Has the Ministry any idea of the time, because surely it affects any long-term aims of local authorities for their elimination?
  Mr. Lindgren: One cannot give an estimate because the problem varies so much in various parts of the country.
  The hon. Member for Ashford referred to housing allocations and whether such allocations would enable local authorities to make additional housing accommodation. As mere allocations they are not the slightest use at all. What really matters is, what houses can be built in the area by the local authority. My right hon. Friend has said in this House, and I repeat it here, that our policy is to encourage those local authorities who will show actual performance in building. If they build, we will give them further allocations. Our policy is to give to those who show good endeavour, and to take away from those who are not showing good endeavour.
  Local authorities who get their present schemes well under way will be favourably considered for further allocations. The hon. Member for Ashford represents two rural districts who were behind in their allocations last year. One was over 100 down and the other well over 50 houses. It is not much good saying to an authority down by 50 houses on last year, "You can have another 200
  1156
  houses" if it only proposes to build 50. That is only raising false hopes in the district among people who are looking for houses. If performance is good, we will see about further allocations.
  We come now to the other point, the effect of the letting of houses in each area on the elimination of these camps. We do not want the Ministry to start interfering with the letting of local houses. Local government means local government, and the people in the locality, knowing the circumstances of the people and their needs, are qualified to do the letting.
  These camps are a very great difficulty for local authorities. People who want a house will go to all sorts of lengths in order to jump the queue, and if it should ever get about that the people in these camps were getting preference over other people on housing lists, things would be very difficult for the local authorities. Local authorities must, in the light of their local needs and the circumstances of the families, let the houses in their areas, considering as well people from the camps where the need is great. We could not encourage—it would be wrong to do so—local authorities to give undue preference to people who sometimes create a problem for themselves by getting into these conditions.
  The only satisfactory way of dealing with the problem is by the provision of additional housing, so that these camps can be closed and the huts taken out of service through the building of new houses. I can say quite definitely—
  The Question having been proposed at Ten o'Clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Half-past Ten o'Clock.

FOOD SUPPLIES
  Fish
  Fish
  Slaughterhouses
  Slaughterhouses
  Copra
  Copra
  Bread (Prices)
  Bread (Prices)
  MALAYA AND SINGAPORE (RUBBER EXPORTS)
  MALAYA AND SINGAPORE (RUBBER EXPORTS)
WEST INDIES
  Sugar and Cigars
  Sugar and Cigars
  Civil Service (Salaries)
  Civil Service (Salaries)
  Antigua (Christian Valley)
  Antigua (Christian Valley)
  Barbadoes (Local Government)
  Barbadoes (Local Government)
AFRICAN COLONIES
  Kenya and Uganda (Local Officials)
  Kenya and Uganda (Local Officials)
  Kenya and Sierra Leone (Doctors)
  Kenya and Sierra Leone (Doctors)
  Cameroons Development Corporation
  Cameroons Development Corporation
ROYAL NAVY
  Operations, Korea (Filming)
  Operations, Korea (Filming)
  Electrical Installations
  Electrical Installations
  Fishing Grounds (Charts)
  Fishing Grounds (Charts)
  Radio Navigation (Charts)
  Radio Navigation (Charts)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Broadcast Programmes (Relaying)
  Broadcast Programmes (Relaying)
  Facilities, Sizewell
  Facilities, Sizewell
  Installations and Applications
  Installations and Applications
  Coin Boxes (Conversion Cost)
  Coin Boxes (Conversion Cost)
POST OFFICE
  Collections and Deliveries
  Collections and Deliveries
  Overseas Parcel Rates
  Overseas Parcel Rates
  Departmental Services (Staff)
  Departmental Services (Staff)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Greenham Common Airfield
  Greenham Common Airfield
  Radar and Reporting Stations
  Radar and Reporting Stations
  Class G Reserve
  Class G Reserve
  Airmen's Records
  Airmen's Records
  Radio-Controlled Bombs
  Radio-Controlled Bombs
  Changi Aerodrome, Singapore
  Changi Aerodrome, Singapore
BRITISH ARMY
  Class Z Reserve
  Class Z Reserve
  Territorial Centre, Wembley
  Territorial Centre, Wembley
  Bailey Bridge Equipment
  Bailey Bridge Equipment
  CORONATION STONE
  CORONATION STONE
  GERMANY (BALANCE OF PAYMENTS)
  GERMANY (BALANCE OF PAYMENTS)
  KOREA (UNITED NATIONS POLICY)
  KOREA (UNITED NATIONS POLICY)
  PIG AND POULTRY FEEDINGSTUFFS
  PIG AND POULTRY FEEDINGSTUFFS
  PULP AND PAPER COMMITTEE
  PULP AND PAPER COMMITTEE
  BRITISH RAILWAYS (ECONOMIES)
  BRITISH RAILWAYS (ECONOMIES)
CIVIL AVIATION
  London—Manchester Service
  London—Manchester Service
  Statistics
  Statistics
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Lord Trefgarne—Took the Oath.
LORD HUNGARTON
Archibald Crawford, Esquire, having been created Baron Hungarton, of Hungarton in the County of Leicester—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

THE COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION
2.45 p.m.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I ask leave of the House to make a personal statement. The occasion arises out of certain untrue assertions which have been made and widely reported in the Press, including the Colonial Press, reflecting upon my conduct of certain affairs during the time when I was Chairman of the Colonial Development Corporation. The statements to which I desire to invite your Lordships' attention relate to the first undertaking launched by the Corporation early in 1948 in Gambia. Some of your Lordships no doubt remember that the undertaking was one for the clearance of 10.000 acres of bush in that Colony, in order to produce feeding stuffs for poultry. The total amount of expenditure involved was £850.000. The Corporation has recently decided to write off about half the capital involved and, I understand, to curtail the scheme.
The statements to which I desire to invite your Lordships' attention, and which have brought me here to-day, are that in pursuance of this scheme I, as Chairman of the Corporation, acted in an arbitrary and high-handed manner; overrode technical advice from within the Corporation; improperly made appointments without the approval of the Board; that I authorised unduly favourable announcements regarding the progress of the undertaking; and, lastly, that I withheld from the Board adverse reports about the scheme which might, if communicated to the Board, have brought into play remedial
230
measures for its troubles. My Lords, political motives or no political motives, these are serious charges. Were they true, they would indicate a standard of conduct below that which would be expected from the Chairman of such a body, and certainly below that which your Lordships would expect from a member of this House occupying such a position. As I was abroad when those statements were made, I am taking the first opportunity after my return to deny them here.
Before doing so, I wish to make a few general observations about the undertaking. First, let me make it clear that I acknowledge the chief responsibility for its establishment. It was the first of a number of projects I proposed to the Board in the ordinary course of my duty as Chairman. This project made the greater call upon my own attention because, being the first operative undertaking of the Corporation, it naturally became the focal point for the discussion of questions of procedure with the Treasury and Government Departments. The fact that I myself had to take direct charge of these extrinsic aspects of the scheme has led to the fantastic suggestion that I had undertaken its commercial management at headquarters. The project was in fact shaped by a mission consisting of an American, Mr. Phillips, and an accountant in the employ of the Corporation, who together spent several weeks in the Colony. His Excellency the Governor, the Chief Agricultural Officer in the Colony and others were consulted, and the Gambia Government gave their strong support to the scheme. It was unanimously approved by the Board of the Corporation, including at every stage the late Sir Frank Stockdale, the senior full-time executive of the Corporation—I think universally acknowledged to be one of the world's greatest authorities on tropical agriculture. The project was launched with a capital of £500,000 in the spring of 1948.
It will not surprise those of your Lordships who are acquainted with such matters to hear that the undertaking, though not one of the largest of the Corporation's undertakings, was one of the most formidable; and it encountered, during the two and a half years of its life, a succession of four setbacks. The first three, namely, a shortage of timber production, infertility of hatching eggs, and a serious outbreak of fowl typhoid last July

231
and August, were successfully overcome. The final reverse was the partial failure of the harvest last November and December; and I believe that this was the proximate cause of the Board's decision to curtail the Scheme.
I now make the considered statement that not one of the setbacks which occurred in my time was regarded by the Manager, by the headquarters officials concerned, by me, or by the Board, as destructive of the basis of the scheme. All was reported in writing by the officials direct to the Board. All the officials, including the Project Manager, the present Deputy Chairman and myself, and the Controller of Operations—the senior official of the Corporation—visited the undertaking during its course. My Lords, in looking back on these proceedings I own frankly that the judgment of the Board and the officials might have been affected by my own confidence, even optimism, about this undertaking. For that fault I have no defence. All the material information, however, was fully reported to the Board. Because Corporation documents alone can establish that fact conclusively, I am obliged to quote from them to the House.
One of the means by which the Board was informed was a quarterly report on every undertaking which gave a record of progress or setback. These reports were prepared by the Controller of Operations in consultation with the senior technical manager—the divisional manager— concerned. I do not propose to trouble your Lordships with the difficulties which arose during 1949, except, perhaps, to quote briefly from the last report of that year. The progress during that quarter was reported thus by the Controller in the quarterly report of December 1, 1949:
"The construction stage is now drawing to an end. This undertaking has been given a good start and there exists a sound basis for successful future operations."
It is when we come to the crucial documents and reports of March to October last year that I must earnestly beg for a measure of patience as I read to your Lordships. For brevity I will, without comment, read short material extracts from the relevant reports. In the report of March 2, 1950, it is stated:
"In the period under review "—
232
that is, the quarterly period:
"a total of 118,175 eggs were laid, averaging 18 per bird per month …. The bulk of eggs were incubated, the remainder consumed locally …. Initial hatches gave fairly satisfactory results of approximately 50 per cent. of total eggs set but there was a progressive reduction in November and December …. Results began to improve from mid-January onwards and hatches of over 60 per cent. are once more being obtained."
In the summary the following statement was made:
"The shortfall in the target production of eggs for sale in 1950 may be of the order of 40 per cent.… Secondly, insufficient feeding stuffs have been produced to maintain the flock till next harvest."
The report of June 1, 1950, said:
"Except for the setback to hatching in November/December last, the poultry side of the undertaking continues to thrive. What is not so satisfactory is farming operations. Profitability depends on our growing enough food at a low price, and failure to reach the target of 10,000 acres mechanically sown by June, 1950, is a disappointment."
On June 15, 1950, there was a special report requesting board authority for a loan mainly for the purchase of feeding stuffs. It said:
"Provided the 1950 harvest reaches the manager's expectations, the revenue from January, 1951, will be more than sufficient to meet further expenditure. A permanent increase in the capital of the undertaking is not recommended. It is considered that the loan could be repaid by the end of 1952 partly from profits and partly by the sale of equipment not required when full development has been reached."
In July, 1950—that is last year—the divisional manager at my request paid a special visit to the undertaking. In the discussions which followed his return it was reported to me that adverse weather conditions had caused heavy mortality in the flock. It was provisionally decided that the management should be strengthened and that thereupon consideration should be given to some alterations in the physical layout of the flocks. It was thought that new management would make the changes more effective.
Now I am coming to perhaps the most crucial report of September 7 last. That report is noteworthy because it embodied the results of the Divisional Manager's visit as well as later information. In this paper the Board were specifically informed of the mortality of 29,000 out of a total of 127,000 chicks hatched, of the total egg sales and of timber production. As in all former reports, up-to-date figures were given of acreages tree-felled, acreages

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stumped and under crop. It was also reported that 1,161 acres had had to be replanted because of pest attack and other causes. But I wish to emphasise that even after this report, though we were all conscious of the difficulties, no doubt arose in our minds of our intention and ability to carry this undertaking through to success. To bear this out I will read from the Controller's summary of the report of last September:
"The Divisional Manager was favouably impressed by the drive shown by the project manager in launching the scheme. … He reported favourably on the types of soil and in his opinion the land should produce satisfactory crops with efficient farm management. … This project has had the great benefit of energetic drive and direction. It is difficult to underrate the great physical achievement that Mr. Phillips has gained for the Corporation. In all except the full target for agriculture the major portion of the tough pioneering stage of development is over. But the experience of two years would indicate that we have yet some distance to go before our methods and technique can be deemed fully adequate for all tropical hazards."
At the Board meeting on October 26, five days before I left the Corporation, it was the view of the Controller of Operations and the Divisional Manager, shared by me and reported to the Board, that the undertaking would now make better progress under new management and that with certain proposed modifications in the undertaking the original production aimed at could still, though perhaps with a little delay, be achieved. These proposals were recommended by the Divisional Manager in person to the Board, and accepted by them.
At this Board meeting, for the first and only time during my Chairmanship, two members of the Board recorded their dissent from the decisions taken. Since that date four members of the Board, including myself, have left the Corporation, and the views of the minority appear now to have been accepted. There remains one charge made in another place concerning the appointment of the American manager that I think can be conclusively dismissed by a recital of the facts. I myself visited the island of Eleuthera in January, 1948, and found Mr. Phillips successfully managing a large poultry farm of between 75,000 and 100,000 birds. He had resigned owing to some disagreement with his employer. On my return he cabled me saying he was free and could he come across for an interview.
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In consultations with the late Sir Frank Stockdale, we discussed at length with Mr. Phillips the possibilities of such a scheme in Gambia. On March 18, 1948, the Board authorised me to settle terms of employment with Mr. Phillips and to send him to Gambia with an accountant to investigate the proposal. There was never any question of my making appointments in the Corporation, other than to my personal staff, without the authority of the Board and the wise procedure of interview by an appointments committee, always provided, of course, that there is enough experience on the committee for the judgment of men.
If all this wearisome evidence has successfully engaged your Lordships' attention, you may feel that the charges which have been made are unjustified. There is something else I feel bound to say, and I will say it, I hope, in words of the utmost moderation. It will be for me a matter of enduring regret that my successor, the noble Lord, Lord Reith, heard these charges in my absence abroad and allowed them to go unanswered. He had only to press the bell and say: "What is the truth about this? "
There is something else I feel I should like to say in order to place this matter in its proper setting. It is a matter of my personal opinion which, frankly, at this difficult moment I cannot expect to carry conviction to your Lordships. I am of opinion that the problem of growing 5,000 or 6,000 tons of feeding stuffs for poultry or pigs on the 10,000 acres is not so insuperable. The native African obtains, year in, year out, average yields of ground-nuts of 1,200 lb. to the acre in Gambia, and a smaller but adequate yield of 600 lb. to the acre of sorghum and coarse grains. Two harvests on the Corporation farm partially failed, but the second deficiency was the result of conditions which plagued all agriculture in the Colony and which made the quality of the ground-nut yield from Gambia the worst in living memory. Incidentally, the British taxpayer, whose name is invoked in relation to this scheme and who so often gets the worst end of the stick, has for years received a large subsidy by the purchase below world price of 60,000 tons of ground-nuts from Gambia, and the resale to that Colony of British goods at full value. I will not labour that point.
If the Board have now decided not to persevere with this undertaking, I have

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one final plea to make. It is that the Gambia decision should not be allowed to destroy your Lordships' confidence in the great bulk of the Corporation's work. This undertaking, inspired by the dire need of the Colony, was one of the most hazardous of the Corporation's fifty undertakings. Of the remainder of public money involved, about £10,000,000 is in absolutely secure investment, such as an electricity undertaking, a building society, a large long-term forestry undertaking and other enterprises where the commercial risk is negligible. Most of the agricultural and other undertakings are planned in progressive stages which can, if necessary, be modified without loss to meet a changing ratio between costs and commodity prices. The proportion of the capital of £30,000,000 which is committed to unduly speculative operations apart from Gambia is less than 2 per cent, and is spread over four or five smaller undertakings.
It is my respectful advice and request to noble Lords to judge the Corporation's work by a study of its undertakings rather than by the sweeping criticisms which are heard to-day. Such an analysis would yield facts and figures which, in my judgment, would go far to renew your Lordships' confidence in a policy supported at its initiation by all Parties and which, unless the flag is hauled down or smeared with untrue criticism, will do much for the Empire. I am afraid I have made a heavy call on the patience of the House. I thank your Lordships for your tolerant attention.
3.7 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would not seek to comment at this stage upon the statement which has been made by the noble Lord. It clearly deserves our careful study. In so far as it relates not to his personal honour but to the judgment of the Corporation, it might properly form the subject of a later debate in this House. I would ask the Leader of the House whether he would give us an assurance that, in accordance with the usual practice, the documents from which the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has quoted, will be laid on the Table of the House.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords. I have asked my noble friend
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about these reports. I understand that they were quarterly reports of the Board. The noble Lord assures me that he will provide us with all the documents in his possession. I shall be glad to lay them either on the Table of the House or anywhere else that is convenient to your Lordships.
Viscount SWINTON: My Lords, certain quotations were made by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, in the course of his speech. He also referred to meetings of the Board and to discussions which took place there, and to certain reservations made by members of the Board which I believe he said they asked to have recorded. I am not sure whether the noble Lord read from these records, but since the noble Lord stated at considerable length the substance of the procedure at these Board meetings, I am sure the Leader of the House will agree that it would be appropriate, when the reports to which reference has been made are tabled, that the House should see also the minutes of the Board meetings.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I will inquire into that point. I am afraid that I am not very well acquainted with the procedure in these matters, but I have impressed upon the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and will do so again, the necessity for providing the House with every possible record that he can produce.
LORD TREFGARNE: May I say that I am not familiar with the proceedings of this House, and therefore I assumed that the documents in question would be made the subject of an Order by this House?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: With great respect, I should have thought not. The ordinary rule applying to Ministers is that if anybody quotes from a document, that document is laid. It does not require an Order of the House. That is done automatically.
LORD STRABOLGI: That is in the case of a Minister. My noble friend is not a Minister.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am well aware that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, is not a Minister of the Crown. The Leader of the House has said that, in view of the rather exceptional character of the statement which has been made to

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us to-day, he considers that it would be entirely proper that all the relevant documents should be put at our disposal. I am perfectly content to accept that course. I share the view of the Leader of the House. I suggest that no formal Order is required, but that the reports will be laid as a matter of course.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, may I intervene for one moment? It seems to me that it may be a little difficult for some of these documents to be brought forward. I think in this case we must trust entirely to the Leader of the House.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, it is only by accident that I happen to be here this afternoon to hear the statement which the noble Lord has made. I am not unmindful of the agreement as to speaking by members of these Boards on subjects concerning the Boards. I do not wish to run counter to that agreement, but may I just say one thing which in fairness I think I ought to say, because otherwise silence might be taken as implying consent? It is no business of mine to defend the present Chairman of the Corporation, but the assumption which lies behind the complaint which has been made by the noble Lord against him is that everything that the noble Lord said is a correct representation of the facts. I can speak only as a part-time member of the Board concerned, and all I say at this stage is that I cannot endorse the accuracy of some of the statements which the noble Lord has made—I say that with the greatest regret. I feel that it is not reasonable to expect the present Chairman to go round making public statements in contradiction of Press reports, which perhaps would not be endorsed by the Board concerned.
LORD TREFGARNE: Everybody knows that the noble Lord feels strongly about all this, but I feel entitled to protest against his saying that he dissents from some of my statements, without indicating to the House which they are.
LORD MILVERTON: If I may say so, I thought that the whole discussion was rather an improper one to take place in this manner, and I curtailed my comments as much as I could. I do not pro-pose to be tempted into making any further statement.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.15 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I desire, with the permission of the House, to say that at 3.45 p.m. our proceedings this afternoon will be interrupted in order to enable my noble friend Lord Henderson to read a copy of a Statement to be made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at the conclusion of Questions. May I also say that it has been agreed through the usual channels that the Second Reading of the Supplies and Services (Defence Purposes) Bill, now on the Order Paper for tomorrow, April 12, shall be taken instead on April 17, and that the Second Reading of the Sea Fish Industry Bill, which is down on the Order Paper for the latter date, shall be postponed until Thursday, April 19.
THE EARL OF PERTH: Can the noble Lord inform us on what subject the Statement is to be made?
LORD SHEPHERD: I think it has regard to certain events that have occurred. I cannot give the details.
THE EARL OF PERTH: I do not ask for details, but just the general subject.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: It relates to matters arising in Korea, to General MacArthur's Command being given up, and matters related thereto.
LORD STRABOLGI: Before we initiate something of that sort, I should like here and now to inquire whether it is intended that this important Statement which my noble friend is to make shall be debated this afternoon. I very much hope that it will not be. It is a matter which should be carefully considered first. In view of recent experience in your Lordships' House, I think that if we are to have discussions initiated by the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Earl who speaks for the Liberal Party, we ought to know in advance, and try to keep at any rate to some Rules of Order on these matters.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I really do not know what the noble Lord's complaint is. I have not asked for this Statement, nor has the noble Earl, Lord Perth; we heard of it only this afternoon. It is the Government who are making the

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Statement, and on their own initiative. Therefore I do not think that the idea that we have asked for a Statement in order to initiate a debate without any previous warning to other noble Lords, has any substance whatever. Further, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that I entirely agree with him in saying that it would be most unsuitable for us to start on a debate without proper consideration of the Statement. At the same time, I hope that it will be possible for a debate to be initiated at an early date.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: Perhaps I, being the one responsible for the intrusion, may say a word. I understand that it is the wish of noble Lords that when an important Statement is made in another place this House shall be furnished by the appropriate Minister, at approximately the same time, with a copy of the Statement. It was only in fulfilment of that general understanding which is due to the House that this arrangement was made. I entirely agree with the noble Marquess and my noble friend behind me that it would be a great pity to spoil our other proceedings by debates on these Statements, and I sincerely hope that there will be no attempt at a debate to-day, because we shall be awaiting a Statement from my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty on the debate which is now before us. This arrangement is due entirely to the fact that I know the House like to have these Statements.
THE EARL OF PERTH: I hope the Leader of the House will remember that it has been the custom, when an important. Statement is made, that the Leaders of the Opposition and of the Liberal Party are permitted to make a very short comment, if it is thought necessary. I hope that procedure will be followed.

PROBLEM OF STOWAWAYS
3.20 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware that stowaways are arriving in this country at a rate of 600 per annum; whether any estimate has been made of the total stow-
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away population now in this country; whether the Government are taking any steps to stop or prevent the arrival of stowaways in this country and to return them to their country of origin.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VIS-COUNT JOWITT): My Lords, the average number of stowaways arriving at United Kingdom ports each year since 1945 is actually higher than the noble Earl has mentioned. It is about 750, of whom about 400 have claimed to be British. Alien stowaways are normally refused admission, and stowaways who claim to be British are admitted only if they can substantiate their claims. Of 708 stowaways who arrived at United Kingdom ports in 1950, 305 British subjects and 17 aliens were allowed to remain. No estimate can be made of the number of stowaways now in the United Kingdom. The Departments concerned have taken up with the shipping companies and with Colonial Governments the question of reducing the number of stowaways arriving at United Kingdom ports, and a number of measures, such as closer supervision at ports of embarkation, have been put into effect.
EARL HOWE: I thank the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor for the answer which he has given. It has been stated that the number of British subjects who have been stowaways and who are now in this country is something like 16,000, and that the traffic is to some extent organised. It is also said that there is a certain amount of evidence to show that it is organised. I hope that His Majesty's Government will be able to watch the position carefully.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As I have said, it would be only a guess if I were to attempt to say how many stowaways there are in this country; no statistics are available. I agree with the noble Earl that the subject is one which needs watching.
LORD STRABOLGI: Does not all this show how very attractive this country is under the present Government? Everyone seems to be trying to get here.
3.22 p.m.

FALKIRK BURGH EXTENSION &C. ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

NAVAL ESTIMATES
3.23 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM rose to call attention to the Memorandum on the Naval Estimates recently presented, and to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the proposals therein contained are adequate for the defence of the country; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Motion has not been set down for the purpose of harassing or castigating His Majesty's Government in their efforts to rebuild the Fleet, but, on the contrary, in an attempt to extract from them a little more information as to what is being accomplished, and the extent of their plans for the future. It is true, I think, that in the presentation of the Naval Estimates for this year His Majesty's Government have endeavoured to provide far more information than usual. I suggest, however, that they have still not gone quite far enough, and that there remains a good deal more which might be disclosed without giving away any harmful secrets. We on this side of the House have frequently pressed His Majesty's Government for more information, because we feel that it is essential that the public should be kept as well informed of the rearmament programme as possible. I have little doubt that full information would go a long way towards heartening the country as a whole, and I believe that the people will be far more ready to find the necessary money if they know that something really effective is to be done and know how their money is going to be spent. I hope that to-day we shall hear from the noble Viscount, the First Lord of the Admiralty, a full account of the activities of his Department.
In another place, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty indicated that the major problem with which the Navy has to contend at the present time is the tremendous increase in the speed of attack—which means, of course, that we must have instruments to detect the attacker at the greatest possible distance. I understand that extensive research is being carried out in these matters, and that one or two prototype instruments have been produced to meet this great increase in speed of attack. I am sure we are all delighted to know that the Navy is well ahead in the design of such equipment, but I think there is a great
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danger that the completion of ships may be delayed until the scientists have perfected their equipment to their satisfaction. That danger has been repeatedly stressed in your Lordships' House, but none the less it still appears to be somewhat prevalent. I feel sure that the Admiralty are bearing this point in mind, but we are a little concerned that the three cruisers which, as your Lordships are aware, have been on the stocks for many years, are still to be delayed until new fire control instruments and guided missile weapons have been perfected. Surely it is now necessary to complete at least two of these ships at the earliest possible moment, rather than that delay should occur to all of them. Why not delay the completion of, shall we say, only the third cruiser until she can be fitted with the very latest equipment now under design and until experiments have been made? Perhaps the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty can give the House some indication as to when these ships are to be taken in hand again and completed. I understand that H.M.S. "Cumberland," has already been fitted out as an experimental ship for guided missiles, rocket propulsion and so on, and perhaps the noble Viscount, the First Lord of the Admiralty, can give your Lordships some information about this ship.
His Majesty's Government, I gather, are proposing to accelerate for the Navy a plan which, as many of your Lordships are aware, has been in existence for some time. I understand that the immediate effect of this acceleration will be to bring forward a further sixty ships from the Reserve Fleet, and to put them into the Active Fleet, and the conversion of some forty-five destroyers into antisubmarine frigates. The increase in the number of specialised ships for anti-submarine warfare is, of course, of the utmost importance, but by converting destroyers we are not thereby increasing the total number of anti-submarine vessels available. When we turn to new construction, we find that twenty-four frigates are to be laid down. That is a welcome improvement on last year's Estimates, but I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty when it is proposed that these ships shall be completed. I think it was intimated in another place that these vessels might only be laid down during the next three years, and that no completion date has

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been fixed. If this is true, I consider that the position is most unsatisfactory. I suggest that considerable acceleration of this building programme is vitally necessary to bring our anti-submarine forces up to strength, and I hope that this acceleration is not being prevented by the usual bottleneck in engine production, which, as your Lordships are aware, occurred not only during the last war but also in the 1914–18 war, when we found it necessary to expand our light forces. We on this side of the House have frequently warned His Majesty's Government to make provision for engines suit-able for escort ships, and I hope that His Majesty's Government will be able to relieve our anxiety on this point.
Now I should like to turn for a few minutes to the question of naval personnel. As your Lordships are no doubt aware, those men on seven- and twelve-year engagements are being retained for service in the Fleet for some eighteen months, and there is no doubt that many of them are suffering considerable hardship. In my view a good deal of this hardship could have been avoided if His Majesty's Government had long ago taken steps to work out a proper manning policy. The fact is that the Navy is short of senior and experienced ratings, and has been so for some considerable time; and that is the real reason for the extension of the service of the seven-and twelve-year men. I am by no means convinced that the necessity for these retentions was due entirely to the war in Korea. During previous debates we on this side of the House have repeatedly warned His Majesty's Government that a difficult manning position would arise in the Fleet unless steps were taken to arrest the drain on experienced ratings from the Service. In fact, it was not until September of last year that a gratuity for men leaving after ten years was extended to include a bounty of £100 to men who re-engaged. I suggest that this might well have been carried out long ago, and we should not then have lost a very large percentage of ratings, who were in fact the backbone of the Fleet. I hope the First Lord is giving his full consideration to a properly thought out manning policy, so that we shall not again find ourselves in the difficulties in which we are at present and have been for a considerable period.
No doubt your Lordships have seen an announcement in the Press recently with regard to the change to be made in the uniform of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers and Royal Naval Reserve officers. I must say that it all seems rather complicated and unnecessary. I should like to ask the First Lord who is going to pay for this change, because gold stripes in these days are not by any means inexpensive. I understand that the idea behind this change is to remove the distinction in uniform between Reserve and Regular officers, but on the other hand certain distinctions are still to be made in certain categories—by leaving the letter "R" inside the curl and so on— and that the old type of buttons of the R.N.V.R. officers are to be reintroduced. At the present time, surely any unnecessary expense should be avoided. In any case, as distinctions are still to be retained, what is the reason for making any change at all? If a change is desirable—though I am assured that on this point there is a considerable difference of opinion among R.N.V.R. officers themselves—I should have thought it would be far better to remove all distinctions in uniform between Reserve and Regular officers, as is done in the American Navy, rather than make the proposed changes. I hope the traditions of the R.N.V.R. will not be changed in other respects. I seem to remember that frequently one of the distinguishing marks of the R.N.V.R. officers was their flowing and handsome beards. I sincerely trust that they will be in no way prevented from continuing this tradition, in spite of certain directions recently issued from the George Cross Island.
I hope that the First Lord will give consideration to the present conditions in which a Merchant Navy officer may fly the Blue Ensign. I believe I am right in saying that an officer holding the rank of Captain, R.N.R., who has on board his ship no fewer than four active service R.N.R. ratings, is entitled to fly the Blue Ensign. May I suggest to the First Lord that a Captain, R.N.R., in command of a Merchant Navy ship should be entitled to fly the Blue Ensign apart from any regulation as to the numbers of R.N.R. seamen on board his ship. I think that at one time the necessary qualification amounted to sixteen R.N.R. ratings, and this number has been gradually reduced to four. The number of qualified R.N.R.

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seamen now available, however, is small and is likely to be reduced, because, in the event of war, in present conditions they would receive considerably more pay by remaining merchant seamen than by becoming R.N.R. seamen. Until this question of pay is settled on an equitable basis, there will be a continuance of this shortage of R.N.R. seamen. I suggest that the shortage of R.N.R. seamen is a very serious matter, and I hope that the First Lord will look into this matter as soon as possible, and, at the same time, will consider giving a Captain, R.N.R., the right to fly the Blue Ensign irrespective of the number of qualified R.N.R. seamen in his ship.
I should like to be assured, as I am sure would all your Lordships, that stock-piling of equipment for the rearmament of our Merchant Navy is being carried out. I refer, of course, to anti-submarine equipment and degaussing equipment, to protect them from magnetic mines, and also to the provision of guns of sufficient calibre to defend them against submarine attack on the surface. I hope the First Lord will be able to give your Lordships some information on this point. May I now refer for a few minutes to the pay and conditions in the Naval Ordnance Inspection Department? As your Lordships are aware, this matter has been frequently referred to in your Lordships' House, and I do not propose to go into the question in any detail to-day. I understand that there was a recent deputation to the noble Viscount, the First Lord, on this matter, and I hope that since the date of this deputation he has given favourable consideration to the views that were then put before him.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, may I say that increases have been granted since the deputation was received?
LORD TEYNHAM: I am delighted to hear that. The officers serving in that branch felt they were having a raw deal, and I am delighted to know these increases have been made. I shall have great pleasure in looking into them. I understand also that little has been done in connection with the Royal Corps of Naval Instructors. I feel that they require better treatment than they are receiving at the present time.
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To turn for a few minutes to what one might call the application and definition of sea power, I think that in some quarters there is a certain amount of confusion as to its application in modern warfare. May I say at once that in spite of scientific developments, the task of the Navy has not really changed at all? That task is, of course, the control of sea communications. This cannot be carried out by the Navy alone. I would say that the correct definition of sea power is really nowadays sea-air power, and should always be considered in that light; and of course the Navy itself, with naval aviation, contributes in no small measure to this dual power. Naval aviation is now accepted as an integral part of our naval activity, and naval aircraft are in a similar category to guns, torpedoes, boats or any other manifestation of naval life. But this is nothing like sufficient to establish a sea-air power supremacy.
I would say that the establishment of sea-air power depends not only on naval shipboard aircraft, or even upon the co-operation of Coastal Command, but it may well depend on heavy attacks delivered by Bomber Command upon enemy submarine bases and upon enemy warships in harbour. The Navy certainly appreciated the great contribution to sea power which was made in the last war by the R.A.F., and the work which they carried out, such as extensive minelaying activities and the bombing of submarine bases. I have little doubt that the Navy is assured of the same full co-operation in the future. But we are much concerned about the position of Coastal Command, which is of vital importance in anti-submarine warfare. Can the noble Viscount the First Lord give us some information about Coastal Command, as to whether plans have been prepared to increase the number of aircraft and pilots for this important service? This information has been asked for repeatedly from His Majesty's Government, not only in Defence debates but in previous years when Naval Estimates have been presented, but little or no information has been forthcoming so far. I hope we shall also be told that a section of the R.A.F. are receiving specialised training in mine-laying so that we shall be ready to go into action at a moment's notice. There is no doubt that the secret of success in anti-submarine warfare is the complete linking together of all the methods of

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attack and defence—in the air, on the water and under the water. We are not satisfied yet that this link is complete and ready to operate as a whole. I hope the First Lord will be able to assure your Lordships on this important matter.
I do not propose to-day to enlarge on the question of the North Atlantic Supreme Command, in view of the Government's promised White Paper, but I should like to ask the noble Viscount when it is proposed to publish that White Paper. On the other hand, I feel that I must say that the proposed appointment is another manifestation that the Navy to-day is to some extent losing its influence in the world, as we have known it in the past. The Navy undoubtedly has had a strong cohesive effect on the British Empire. We must not forget that we are far more than an overcrowded island with only the Western Approaches to defend. We are the centre of a great, powerful and united British Commonwealth, which stretches around the world. It is this powerful group of nations which we must defend, and we must plan accordingly. If we fail to realise the significance of our sea power, we may well lose our position at the centre of this great group of nations, and perhaps sow the seeds of disintegration. I cannot help feeling that the proposed Supreme Command in the North Atlantic, coupled with other matters, indicates a policy which will have the effect of reducing the influence of our command at sea and transferring our efforts so that we become more and more a Continental Power. I have little doubt that we are face to face with an issue of policy of the greatest magnitude and, what is more, we appear to have drifted into decisions without the country realising what is happening. I feel that we should quickly review every aspect of our sea power to-day. I beg to move for Papers.

THE UNITED NATIONS AND KOREA
3.40 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for allowing me to intervene for a few moments to repeat a Statement which is at present being given in another
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place by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. The Statement is rather long, but I feel that your Lordships would like to have the text in full. It reads as follows:
"The House will have heard of the decisions taken by the President of the United States of America in regard to General MacArthur. In view, however, of the widespread interest and anxiety about the objectives and plans of the United Nations in Korea, I consider that it may be useful to deal with the various issues raised in the Questions on the Order Paper. Let me deal first with the question of aims in Korea. Consultations in which we are taking an active part are proceeding between Governments as to a possible statement of aims in Korea in the light of the general situation. If, as I hope, these consultations are shortly concluded, I shall then be able to give the House further information. All I wish to say now—so that there may be no possible doubt on the matter—is that our aims are unchanged. We stand for resistance to aggression, a free, independent and unified Korea, and no extension of the conflict.
"Great interest has been expressed in the machinery for consultation between the United Nations and their Commander in the field. The position is that the United States Government were invited by the Security Council of the United Nations to make pro-vision for a unified Command, and to designate a Commander for the United Nations forces in Korea. The President of the United States is the Chief Executive of the Unified Command, and he designated General MacArthur as Commander in Korea. The Unified Command is responsible for the implementation of United Nations Resolutions in regard to Korea and for issuing directives to the Commander of the United Nations forces.
"Apart from constant exchanges of views with Commonwealth and other friendly Governments through the diplomatic channels, there is continuous consultation in Washington between representatives of Governments contributing forces in Korea. The views of His Majesty's Government are and have been made known to the United States Government when-ever the need arises. Sometimes our

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views prevail, sometimes they do not. That is only natural in discussions of this kind involving a number of nations, and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the way in which the United States Government, on whom the main burden rests, has at all times displayed its readiness to consult and discuss in regard to these difficult problems.
"The question of crossing the 38th Parallel cannot be treated apart from other matters concerning Korea. We were ready a few months ago to negotiate a cease-fire, and we are ready now. But it takes two to agree on a cease-fire, and so far the other side have shown no desire to stop hostilities in Korea. Consultations on crossing the Parallel began in February. I do not propose to reveal the nature of the discussions since the question of the extent of the advance of the United Nations forces has military as well as political aspects. But I would not have the House think that the crossing of the 38th Parallel (despite all the attention it has received) is the main issue in Korea. The real issue is whether the North Koreans and Chinese are willing to negotiate a settlement. If they are, the question of the Parallel will soon cease to have any political importance, and I would hope that the aims to which so many nations, including the Soviet Union, have been pledged for so long—a free, unified and independent Korea—could be achieved by negotiation.
"Let me now turn to the nature of the directives issued to the Commander of the United Nations forces in Korea since the establishment of the Unified Command. In the interests of the security and safety of the United Nations forces in Korea the House will not expect me to give precise details of these directives. I can, however, give an indication of their general con-tent. And I shall try to summarise the instructions issued over a period of many months. The Commander of the United Nations forces in Korea was instructed that the political aims of the United Nations called for resistance to aggression in Korea and included the longstanding aim of a free and independent Korea. He was told that these aims did not necessarily require the conquest of North Korea by force,
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though the disposition of troops and positions in the war of manoeuvre in the vicinity of the 38th Parallel should be appropriate to defence against possible impending offensives by the Chinese and North Koreans. He was told that operations should not be undertaken which extended the conflict beyond Korean territory, and that it was the intention of the United Nations to localise hostilities in Korea, and therefore that it was not their intention to become involved in general hostilities with China. And he was told that the powers of the Commander of the United Nations forces to conduct operations on behalf of the United Nations were limited to Korea, and were to be executed within the framework of declared United Nations policy.
"I have given a summary of the instructions issued to the Commander of the United Nations forces in Korea, and I take this opportunity to associate His Majesty's Government fully with them. They represent the policy of our country and of the other countries with forces in Korea. A number of questions on the Order Paper relate to the way in which General MacArthur has carried out his instructions. In view of the change of command, this episode is now closed, and I do not desire to say more than to draw the attention of the House to the traditional British interpretation of the relationship between a military com-mander in the field and the Government to whom he is responsible. On this matter successive British Governments have always consistently stood for the subordination of the military to the political. It is clear from the statement issued this morning by the President of the United States that under the American Constitution and practice the same interpretation is placed on this relationship, as indeed it must in any democratic country where the views of the people, expressed by their freely elected Governments, must be paramount.
"I should like, if I may, to turn for a moment from the issues raised in the Questions on the Order Paper. These issues which relate to Korea are of the highest importance, and I have tried to deal with them at some length in

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order to remove any doubt and misunderstanding. The record of General MacArthur is, however, not to be judged solely by some of his recent public utterances. He was a great servant of the Allies during the war in the Pacific, and he has proved himself a brilliant soldier. He has displayed qualities of the highest order in his conduct of the occupation in Japan. These are achievements which will be remembered long after the immediate controversy has been forgotten.
"I hope that the House will bear with me if, in view of the announcement this morning in Washington, I do not deal with all the detailed points raised in the Questions. This is not the time to look back but to look forward, and I take this opportunity of expressing the confidence of His Majesty's Government in General Ridgway, the new United Nations Commander in Korea, who has already shown such brilliant qualities in the field.
"I, like my right honourable friend my predecessor, am anxious to see whether we can bring about a negotiated settlement and, as I said at the beginning of this Statement, consultations have been and still are proceeding between the Governments. I hope shortly to be able to say something further on where we stand in Korea, and on what should be our policy for the future."
That is the full Statement, my Lords, and I am grateful for the opportunity of being able to repeat it to your Lordships.
3.50 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, for the full Statement which he has made on behalf of the Foreign Secretary, giving the aims of His Majesty's Government and the other Allied Governments in the Korean war. I believe that this should prove very valuable in clarifying the position. I am sure that noble Lords in all parts of the House will wish to study and consider what he has said. I hope that an early opportunity may afford itself for debating recent developments in the Far East, though I do not wish to ask the Government for a day immediately.
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With regard to General MacArthur, the news of whose retirement we have heard to-day, I will say only this. It is not for me, nor is it, I think, for any of us, to go into the controversies in which the General has been involved during recent months. I do not think any good at all can come from that. I should like, however, with Lord Henderson, to pay a most sincere tribute to him for the debt that we all owe him for his many out-standing services in the World War. He was a brave and resolute man, and a great military commander. He has never flinched or failed, however dark the situation may have been, and with others I think that the free world will be eternally his debtor. I would also agree with the noble Lord that we are extremely fortunate in having as his successor General Ridgway, who has made already so glowing a reputation as a fighting soldier in the Korean war. I am sure that we shall all wish him every success in his arduous and vitally important task.
3.52 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I too, should like to express gratitude for the full Statement which has been made. Clearly it requires careful study, and it is more than likely that your Lordships' House will wish to debate it later in full. I should also like to associate myself with the tribute paid in the Statement, and also by the noble Marquess, the Leader of the Opposition, to the brilliant strategic qualities of General MacArthur. As has been said, we owe him a deep debt of gratitude. Meanwhile, may I make one observation? I sincerely hope that His Majesty's Government will do their utmost to establish some form of contact with the Chinese Government, because the war is going on and men and women are losing their lives every day. I can-not believe that it is not the wish of the Chinese Government, as it is certainly the wish of the vast majority of the United Nations, to bring this conflict to an honourable conclusion—honourable on all sides. I feel sure that that is the aim of His Majesty's Government. I feel equally certain that they will agree with me that no question of prestige should be allowed to stand in the way of a settlement.

NAVAL ESTIMATES
3.54 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I followed with great interest the speech of the noble Lord in introducing the Motion which is before the House, and there are two points in it upon which I should like to make short comment. The first is with regard to the changes in uniform affecting the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve. Of course, I cannot say anything about the questions of expense, or venture an opinion as to how the R.N.R. and the R.N.V.R. feel about these changes. I can only say for myself that I should like to see every distinction swept away in these uniforms. I hope that this decision not to distinguish the uniforms, except in regard to the letter "R," may be a step in the direction of removing all distinctions of any sort. Remembering the services rendered by the officers and men of those two Reserves, I am sure that the Royal Navy would feel that it did itself nothing but an honour in wearing a common uniform with them.
My other comment arises from the point which the noble Lord made about stockpiling with regard to the defensive equipment of merchant ships. I take great interest in that matter because, as it happens, in the course of two wars I served a short term of duty in fitting out merchant ships with defensive armaments. At the present time I have the honour to be the President of an Association which looks after the interests of the officers of the Mercantile Marine. Of course, in that position a great deal of information upon such subjects comes my way. I am happy to inform your Lordships that it is the considered opinion of that Association that the Admiralty are fully meeting requirements in that respect, and that the officers of the Merchant Navy are satisfied with what is being done in order to ensure that, should war break out again, their ships will immediately go to sea properly defensively equipped.
Now I turn to the terms of the Motion itself. The Motion asks His Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the proposals contained in the Memorandum on the Naval Estimates are adequate for the defence of the country. The
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noble Lord will not mind my saying that I think the wording is a little naive, because—whatever we may think about their preparations—we cannot expect the Government to admit any deficiency in those preparations. It is only within the past six months or so that there has been what I may call a certain noticeable movement up on the Catskill Mountains, and there are now evident signs that the Government fully appreciate the dangers with which we are faced. It must be remembered that since 1945 our Defence Ministers—there have been three—have had something like £4,000,000,000 to spend, and some people seem to think that we have very little indeed to show for it. They say that, like the Dutch, these Defence Ministers have been giving too little and are asking too much from the Treasury.
The run-down in our Naval strength has been really alarming. I should say that if, by any terrible tragedy, we were forced into war this year, we would go into it less favourably placed even than we were in 1939. The next war, if it comes, is not going to be one of those wars "to end war," of which we have had two examples, only to be seriously disappointed. It is going to be a war to decide whether civilisation is or is not going to be rubbed off the face of the earth. On that account I think we must try to be particularly ready. We hear a great deal about the number of ships in reserve or laid up in these cocoons— "mothballs" as our American friends call them. All that lay-up of ships is clever and excellent, but do not let us take too much comfort from it. In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, referred to the question of personnel. Ships have to be manned, and officers and men must be trained. The manning position to-day is not too good. The noble Lord said (and I fully agree with him) that we have not enough of those staid men who have always been the backbone of the Navy. We want the best men, and we want long-service men. Instead of men who could join for twelve years, we have men who join for seven years and serve five years in Reserve. Of these men far too many do not reengage and qualify for pension.
As for training, seamen, to be efficient, must go to sea -and too few of them do so at present for long enough periods.

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There are too many ships in reserve, and too many officers and men in shore and harbour jobs. Senior officers have few chances of command at sea to-day, and become frustrated through looking at the mud up the creeks where their ships are lying. Successful strategy depends on ships' exercising and manœuvring at sea, practising going in and out of difficult harbours and anchorages at night and in all weathers. There is too little naval activity at sea at present. Surely, events in Korea ought to have stimulated the Government in this respect. We are proud of what the Fleet has done in Korean waters, but it seems to me that we had great difficulty in "scratching together" these forces to send to Korea. Suppose that another crisis had happened somewhere else, contemporaneously with events in Korea. It seems that we are too weak to begin with, and then suffer great losses while we are building up. It is an expensive system, and one which involves terrible shipping losses. It also involves holding up operations. It is, too, a system which causes great privation to civilians, and the war itself is lengthened —so seriously increasing its cost.
As regards the role of the Navy and the Air Force, the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb have not made navies obsolete. I quoted to your Lordships in a previous debate lessons which the Americans have learnt from certain combined operations they carried out. I pointed out that the first of those lessons was that the Navy still had a role of primary importance to play in any future hostilities. How quickly the truth of that lesson has been proved in Korea! Strong naval forces will be required in another world war. There may be other Koreas—Persia, Formosa, Burma, Turkey, Greece, the Adriatic, the Baltic, the Arctic. How do we know, with Russia in her present mood, that soon, in one of these places, we may not find ourselves confronted with another Korea? It is only types of ships and consequently strategy and tactics which change. The necessity to exercise sea power remains— because, although it is true that sea power will not win a war, it is sea power which enables wars to be won and which forms the essential link with the countries of the Commonwealth.
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What are these commitments? It may be as well to recapitulate them in discussing Naval Estimates. First, there is the need to increase task forces so that they are able to deal with enemy concentrations or threats in any part of the world. We must be able to deal with raiders. Enormous concentrations of air and sea forces, let us remember, were necessary to deal with the "Bismarck." Minesweeping will be a tremendous task in the future. Air forces do not remove these responsibilities from our naval forces. I have left to the last our first and great commitment. That commitment is not to be reckoned in terms of enemy surface warships, but in the terms of the number of our own and Allied merchant ships which we have to protect. That is the first and greatest commitment of the Navy in time of war. It is to protect shipping over hundreds of thousands of miles of sea routes. To the problem of how to fulfil that commitment and responsibility there is only one answer—to get these merchant ships into convoy. Convoy depends upon having a sufficient number of adequately-trained surface and air escorts; and it is to that question that I wish particularly to address myself.
To agree that these Naval Estimates represent an adequate preparation for defence would be to agree that one is satisfied about the number and the efficiency of the escort craft at the disposal of the Navy at the present moment. I certainly cannot say that I, for one, am so satisfied. I think that in the Statement on the Navy Estimates the figure of sixty-one destroyers and frigates in active commission was quoted. But the question I ask about these destroyers and escort forces generally is this: Are they organised, distributed and trained as convoy escorts, or are they organised and trained for Fleet duties? I do not wish to be taken in the strict letter in what I am going to say, but what has happened in the past when war broke out has been that officers in command at sea, and officers directing affairs at the Admiralty, have wanted to get the ships to sea to meet the enemy's surface ships. Everyone has been burning and itching to get at them, with the result that the fleets and squadrons have gone off to make contact with the enemy ships, while the protection of merchant shipping, which I regard as the greatest commitment of all, has been left to be

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carried out by ships from the reserves manned in rather a scratch fashion.
Anti-submarine escorts, however, re-quire a very high degree of experience. They require experience, skill and co-operation which can be produced only by constant and systematic exercise with our own submarines. That, I feel, is the great task of our commanders-in-chief. For lack of that experience we had the heavy sinkings between 1939 and 1942, when hastily mobilised escorts had to under-take the job of convoy work without proper experience or training. And once they had been put on to that job it was never possible to take them off it for long enough to give them the training which was needed. They had to learn their job by the not very satisfactory process of being, as it were, trained while still learning how to swim; our mercantile marine had very heavy losses on account of this haphazard method. We shall need a minimum of 200 fully-commissioned escort ships, trained and organised solely for shipping protection. It is all very well for the Statement on the Estimates to stress scientific research and so on, but improved listening devices and higher speeds are no substitute for training and numbers of escort craft. For those 200, we shall want something in the nature of 30,000 officers and men, but a great number of them can be obtained by cutting out inessential and relatively unimportant services. I sincerely trust that we may hear something from the First Lord this afternoon to indicate that the escort craft which will have this task to perform in the future will be organised and trained in the manner which I have endeavoured to describe, in order that, should war break out, they can be put on to their escort duties from the very first hour.
The submarine is indeed a menace which is growing every year. Submarines already do short bursts of twenty knots. They can navigate indefinitely at periscope depth, thanks to the Schnorkel, which, I may mention, it is very difficult for radar to detect. Radar is an uncertain defence against the Schnorkel submarine. At the start of the last war, in 1939, Germany had fifty-four submarines, and she used very few aircraft indeed in attacks upon our merchant shipping; but in that year she sank 361 ships and about 1,250,000 gross tons of shipping. I will
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not commit myself to a figure, but we have had several figures quoted to us about the number of submarines in the possession of the Russians. If Germany, with fifty-four submarines, could inflict those losses upon us, what are we to expect from the very much larger number of submarines that we hear of as being at the disposal of the Russians, even allowing for a slightly lower efficiency amongst the Russian officers and men than we found amongst the Germans? That emphasises What is my strong point of view: that unless our anti-submarine forces are as numerous and trained in the manner I have described, once again we may find ourselves suffering the most crippling shipping losses.
I should like to say a few words about what are, to my mind, some rather new ideas, which were put forward in another place by the Minister who was introducing the Naval Estimates. He emphasised the fact that our Navy and the navies of the Atlantic Pact countries were being welded into what he called a "standardised pattern." There was to be interchange of officers, ability to switch equipment and weapons, and a common code of signals, and the new anti-submarine frigates were going to be put to common use and in a common pool. But what did, I confess, disturb me was the new doctrine which he enunciated, that no longer can the British Isles be defended by the Navy alone, that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is a recognition of this changed strategy, and that the Organisation strengthens us very substantially at sea. Alliances are necessary and effective instruments for combating a particular crisis, but I think it is permissible to have some doubts about them as a permanent state of affairs. After all, since 1914, the Italians have fought both with us and against us, and now we are friendly with them once again. The Japanese have fought both with us and against us, and now we hear of a peace treaty with Japan which may provide for a considerable degree of rearmament. Alliances tend to be transient affairs, and we should be careful before we commit ourselves lock, stock and barrel to hand-ling our own armed forces on the basis of a belief that an existing set-up in international relations will endure for all time. To my mind, it means that we are relying upon an Organisation—Heaven knows, I

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hope it may not be so!—which might let us down if one or two countries failed entirely to come up to their obligations.
"Standardisation" sounds a very fine word; it is a blessed word like "Mesopotamia." It corresponds to "egalitarianism" in politics. But I cannot help feeling that, so far as the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is concerned, standardisation may be at a level lower than our best. After all, our Navy is unique. It stands unparalleled in its efficiency as a sea force. This standardisation may tend to be at a lower level than our best has been proved to be so often. In regard to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, I hope that no one will doubt how deeply I feel about the maintenance of good Anglo-American relations, and how fully I realise the great debt that we have been under in two wars to that great country. But I do deprecate the habit which seems to be growing up of always turning to the United States for help. It is becoming almost a habit that, in any crisis or jam, or OH any question, automatically we turn to the United States and expect them to help. We may not be able to rival the navy of the United States in size, and I say that the run-down of our Navy has been too great. Had that not been so, we could have occupied a position of much greater status and prestige in the deliberations of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation than perhaps we have. I want to see this country remain a volunteer unit of that Organisation, and not a standardised link, remembering, as I have said, that no international relationships are for all time, and that a lasting community of interest in inter-national affairs is a very rare thing indeed.
I have spoken about the run-down in the Navy. The Estimates provide for thirteen carriers to protect shipping against submarine and aircraft. It does not seem to me a large number. Then there are to be twenty-six cruisers: I should have thought that a very inadequate number of cruisers. We had forty-one at the beginning of the last war, and we found those too few. There are to be 113 destroyers, 165 escort frigates and 66 submarines. The First Lord says that these figures are satisfactory. How deeply I trust that the First Lord
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is right, and that, if war does come upon us, those numbers will be found to be satisfactory! Meanwhile, the United States is launching the largest building programme since her expansion after the events of Pearl Harbour. It is a pro-gramme running into 2,000,000,000 dollars, a perfectly gigantic programme of new construction and of modernisation of older ships.
As the noble Lord in moving his Motion said something about the air, I will not traverse the ground which he covered so completely and effectively, except to say that it would be interesting to hear what is going to be done about fitting merchant ships with helicopters, because I think some of your Lordships will have noticed the trials carried out in February with helicopters from Fort Duquesne. They were very interesting and were carried out in heavy seas and high winds. It would be interesting to hear what is thought of the possibility of fitting some of our merchant ships to use helicopters. There is a serious shortage of pilots and observers, a matter to which I think the First Lord referred on one occasion. The truth is that the Fleet Air Arm was cold-shouldered at a very critical moment, and even after that the policy pursued in regard to the Fleet Air Arm was unimaginative. Look at the carriers which the Fleet Air Arm had at their disposal in the last war. We had to turn to America to get suitable aircraft for our Fleet Air Arm.
My Lords, there are no other points which I wish to mention, except this. As the noble Lord said, a White Paper will be issued about the command in the North Atlantic, and that will be the proper moment at which to debate that question. I trust it will be debated from the point of view of whether it is the most effective system of command for the objective that we have in mind in the North Atlantic. I hope that now we shall regard as a settled matter the fact that an American Admiral has been appointed to that command, and that aspect of the question need not be reopened again. I do not know whether it is too early to-day to ask for news about the Mediterranean command. I appreciate it may be too soon, and per-haps it would be fair to have all these commands announced at one and the same time. I noticed with great surprise that the French were not invited to the conference at Malta. I am bound

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to say that I think it was a mistake not to invite them there. The important question about the Mediterranean command is whether it is going to be independent of General Eisenhower, as is the Atlantic command, because at any rate no one can deny our predominant interest in the Mediterranean. No one can deny our predominant interest in Gibraltar, Malta and Suez—our gateway to the East—and I trust that that fact will be borne in mind and recognised when the question of the command in the Mediterranean comes to be decided. I trust I have not detained your Lordships at too great length, but in conclusion may I say that I think the most important matter we have to consider in connection with the Navy at the present moment is the question of providing and training personnel for the escort ships? That is the first and foremost duty of the Admiralty to-day.
4.24 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sure the House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, for bringing forward this Motion. I believe that my noble friend the First Lord will share my satisfaction in the very moderate and, if I may say so, balanced statement that he made. I should also like to commiserate with him in that some unexpected events took place before he opened this debate, and also interrupted the proceedings during the debate. But Parliament is a strange place: these sort of things happen, and we must be prepared for the unexpected. I should also like to congratulate the noble Lord upon his brief but effective homily on the real meaning of sea power, and perhaps I may be so bold as to expand his words in the few remarks which I address to your Lordships.
First, however, may I ask my noble friend the First Lord two questions which he and I have been discussing, and upon which he might find it convenient to make a statement. Can my noble friend say anything as to the progress of the new entry into Dartmouth? Perhaps he may be able to say how many entrants are being taken in, and how many applications for entry have been received. When I entered as a cadet, 600 applicants were passed for medical examination, and only sixty were finally taken, so competition was rather stiff. The com-parable figures for to-day would be
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interesting. Another matter of perennial interest is the question: what progress is being made with promotion from the lower deck, and how many instances of promotion of this kind are there during a year in the various branches? I believe that good progress is being made there, and my noble friend might like to make a statement about that matter. I have one more comment on Lord Teynham's observations. I should like to support him in regard to altering the regulations concerning the flying of the Blue Ensign when the commanding officer of the ship is an R.N.R. officer. There is a great deal to be said for that change, and we should give all the encouragement we can to the Royal Naval Reserve.
I entirely agree with what Lord Teynham said about the unchanging fundamental foundations of sea power. They do not alter. But the danger that I see to-day (I am going to be perfectly frank with my noble friend) is of too much emphasis, and therefore too much money, effort and man-power, being expended on a Continental army and too little on the Fleet. I think we shall make a great mistake if we allow the Fleet and its component air arm to be starved for the sake of maintaining a great Continental army which may never be needed. My noble friend will remember the protests of the German generals to the Kaiser, in the years before 1914, about the rapid building up of the German fleet, as they said, at the expense of the army. They pointed out that the only result would be to provoke the British, and eventually the Americans, and that, after all, Germany depended for her strength on her army and not on sea power. In saying that they were completely right. If the Kaiser had not had this infatuation to call himself the Admiral of the Atlantic, there would have been no need for the First World War at all. I can see exactly the same situation arising with regard to ourselves, but in reverse. I can see us building a great army, and in consequence being forced—I do not say to starve, but to keep the Navy down to limits which are really insufficient for our world-wide and multitudinous commitments.
I hope that I carry Lord Teynham with me in saying that I think it would be a mistake to build a Fleet that is designed only for meeting a threat from one

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potential enemy. Apparently at present the potential enemy is Russia, which does not disturb me because, as the noble Lord who has just preceded me has said, in our lifetime we have seen a number of changes in regard to potential enemies. A Fleet designed for this one purpose will consist of small types of aircraft carrier, anti-submarine craft of various kinds, escort vessels and minesweepers. That would be an unbalanced fleet, unsuitable for our world-wide commitments. After all, it takes a long time to build up a modern navy, to train its officers and men and to maintain its efficiency. It is a long process upon which one cannot improvise. In my lifetime I have seen many changes in our potential enemies and allies. When I joined the Navy as a cadet our potential enemy was France, and her ally was Russia. Then came the Russo-Japanese war, and the destruction of the Russian fleet. Then we had the rise of the Germany navy, to which I have referred, and we concluded an entente, first with France and then with Russia, and we forgot all about the sup-posed Russian threat to the North-West frontier of India. Then we regarded the Germans as our potential enemy, and we were in alliance with Japan. After the First World War the alliance with Japan was abrogated, largely at the behest of America, and the Japanese began to expand their naval power and to embark on aggression. Yet beforehand they had been our allies. The argument that I am trying to adduce is that, while alliances can quickly change into enmities, and enmities into alliances, it takes a long time to build up an efficient Navy. Therefore, I suggest that we have to design our Fleet and build it accordingly; that is to say we must use a necessarily limited amount of money to the best advantage to build a Fleet which will perform the tasks which it has to meet. A purely anti-submarine force would be insufficient in view of our world-wide commitments.
The point I have been leading up to is that I must renew to my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty my doubts about our numbers of cruisers. I still feel dubiety about our cruiser building programme. I trust that we shall not remain satisfied with the very small number of cruisers now on the Navy
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List, and I hope it is to be increased. We need a cruiser force because the cruiser can maintain herself on a foreign station for a long time, and she can make long voyages without a mother ship. A frigate or a destroyer cannot do these things so well, despite the growth in size —and cost—of destroyers to-day. The cruiser is the only vessel which can be used to represent British interests in the various parts of the world where there may be trouble, and where we may have commitments to meet. The battleship, I suppose, is too costly to-day (I think that is generally recognised), and too vulnerable to air attack. I do not think that many navies can afford to build a large fleet of battleships. The cruiser has now become a vessel of considerable size. The later American cruisers are of somewhere about 16,000 tons, which was the size of a battleship when I first went to sea. Furthermore, the modern cruiser costs a good deal more than the battleship did at the time when I first went to sea. Aircraft carriers are necessary, but they are extremely costly. I think they supply that striking force that we used to look for from the battleship. I hope that your Lordships will forgive me for making this addition to the homily which has been so ably delivered by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham. I am really only expanding his arguments, which I think were well-nigh unassailable.
With regard to the actual needs of special vessels for meeting submarines, I have been greatly interested to see reports from America of the tremendous increase in speed of the American submarines of the future that are now being designed. No less a person than the Chairman of the House of Representatives Armed Forces Committee—who is presumably a responsible individual—has told us that in about a year's time the Americans will have at sea an atomic-powered sub-marine. I take all this with great reserve, but the newspaper report which I saw declared that this new American submarine will be capable of submerged speeds up to what the newspaper described as "sixty miles an hour." Think of that!—a submerged speed of sixty miles an hour, which works out at more than fifty-two knots. I have never heard of any ship that could attain a speed of fifty knots, either on the surface, under the water or anywhere else—except, of course, in the air. I therefore treat these

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reports with considerable reserve. Still, as I have indicated, the statements were said to have been made by such an important personage as this American Chairman of the House of Representatives Armed Forces Committee. But even ignoring that report, there is no doubt that the speed of future submarines will increase very greatly if atomic power can be used. I presume that we also are experimenting along those lines, though for obvious reasons I will not ask my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty for any details in this connection. Clearly, with this greatly increased speed the submarine must become an even greater menace to the shipping of the world than heretofore, and very fast ships will be required to combat it.
A powerful air force with the necessary carrier vessels is undoubtedly required also. The air arm must be adequate and efficient. With regard to the present air arm, from the information which reaches me, and from information given to us generally, I gather that great advances have been made by the Royal Navy, and that to-day the Fleet Air Arm is very powerful and highly efficient. I congratulate my noble friend on that fact. Furthermore, on the published figures the number of aircraft carriers which we possess, or are building, seems to me to be satisfactory. There is no doubt that the air side of the Royal Navy is by no means neglected. That is all very satisfactory, and I consider that the Board of Admiralty, and particularly my noble friend, are entitled to support and praise. I regret that we are not yet able, apparently, to make a Return of Fleets. That most useful publication was initiated by the late Sir Charles Dilke, who, many years ago, I believe, was a contemporary of a noble Lord who is sitting at this moment on the Liberal Benches. The "Dilke Return," as we used to call it, was a very valuable publication indeed. We give a great deal of information about our own Fleet now in the Navy Estimates and in the Navy List, and I do not see why the Return of Fleets should not be published with such information as we have. I understand that certain Powers are opposed to it, but nevertheless I think that a similar Return, with the information which we have about the fleets of the world, would be very valuable for Members of Parliament in both Houses.
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Lastly, I should like to support what has been said—and I am sure this is very much in the mind of my noble friend the first Lord of the Admiralty— about the great need for as much sea time as is practicable for the Fleet and its personnel. You cannot make sailors on shore. I am sure that at long last that fact is realised. The more time that is spent at sea, the more efficient will be the Fleet. I know the difficulties about oil fuel and its cost, and all that sort of thing. Nevertheless, I stress that nothing can take the place of sea training. I am sure that my noble friend will support that. All the accounts I get of of the Royal Navy of to-day go to show that it is not only highly efficient but that our men are contented—at any rate they have no burning grievances, which is something unique in the history of the Royal Navy. I believe that the officers are of the highest standard to-day, and that they will worthily carry on the traditions of that great Service.
4.38 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, there is no need for me to stress again the vital importance of anti-submarine de-fence and the provision of suitable vessels, training and equipment. As I read the Explanatory Statement of the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty, the scheme is that the need for anti-submarine defence should in the main be met by the conversion of fleet destroyers. I am glad that Lord Teynham drew attention to the fact that every time we convert a fleet destroyer into an anti-submarine vessel we lose a fleet destroyer, which in itself is an anti-sub-marine vessel. It may look very good that we have made or have in hand so many conversions into anti-submarine frigates, but it is sometimes forgotten that that does not mean a net addition to the Fleet. On the whole, I think the programme of conversion is satisfactory, but in my view the programme of new construction leaves a great deal to be desired. It does not seem to me to be taken seriously enough. In the first place, two destroyers were launched in 1949—one in March and one in August. Neither has yet joined the Fleet. This means that two years have elapsed. That is too long from the launching of a destroyer to completion. They are both in good yards, and I suspect that the reason of their non-completion is that those in charge

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have not been pressed for a finishing date and have therefore allowed other work to have preference. I hope that the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty will give us some assurance as to the date when those two ships will be completed.
It is not very satisfactory that last year not a single anti-submarine frigate was launched and not a single frigate or destroyer was accepted into service. The only ship accepted into service was a survey ship—total number of guns, none. There are two prototype frigates which have just been started—I suspect only just. Certainly they will not be in service until 1953, and if they are really prototypes it means we shall not start building others until we have seen how they get on. I do not consider that in any way satisfactory. It is true that there are two other frigates in the programme of new construction: are these the same as the prototypes, or are they what might be called production models? I hope the noble Viscount will tell us. Further down the Explanatory Statement we find that as many frigates are being ordered as machinery can be provided for. It has already been said in this debate that machinery is the bottleneck. It used to be the bottleneck and it is going to be more of a bottleneck. I have mentioned to your Lordships before that nowadays equipment is much more complex and there are fewer firms who can undertake the manufacture of modern, high-powered, lightweight turbines. They can-not be turned out as the reciprocating engine used to be turned out.
It seems to me that the statement that the number of frigates is limited by the machinery which can be provided demonstrates a grave lack of flexibility in the arrangement which now exists for ordering new ships and their equipment. I know what the trouble is. In one year the Treasury allow only so much money to be expended on orders for new machinery for ships that will not be ordered until next year's Estimates or the Estimates for the year after. The trouble probably is that insufficient notice is taken of those who know about production problems, the technical officers in the Admiralty and the Navy, and too much notice is taken of Treasury officials and of the administrative and secretarial
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staff in the Admiralty. I do not believe that people who know nothing about technology understand how long it takes to produce a piece of complicated modern machinery, and I wish the noble Viscount would give technologists a little more administrative authority and not make them so hidebound by the secretarial staff. The other day I heard of a paper on a technical subject which had no fewer than sixty minutes on it from the secretarial branch before it ever reached a technical officer.
I should like to ask the noble Viscount what has happened to the hulls of the "Battle" Class destroyers we had at the end of the war and which were never completed. I know that some of them have been used for destruction tests, but there are some left. Are we not going to use them by putting engines in them? They are good hulls, well designed and well built. I hope we are not going to waste them. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has mentioned the cruisers on which work has been suspended. I see there are also three light fleet cruisers on which work has been suspended. I hope the noble Viscount will tell us what is going to happen to them and what has happened to them now. One of them was being built at a yard of which I have some knowledge, and it certainly is not there now. I hope they will not be left too long before they are completed.
In the paragraph headed "Works Programme," a great deal is said about improved married quarters, living conditions and working conditions, but there is not a word about providing protected workshops and stores. We all know that that is a big job, but it should be remembered that during the war the underground workshops in Malta did a fine job when the dockyard was completely out of action. Ships could go in and get urgent jobs carried out in a short time because there was machinery underground which could not be damaged by bombs. In any future war attacks on dockyards are bound to be severe. If the dockyards are completely smashed up and no machine tools are left to carry out the necessary repairs, our anti-submarine ships will soon come to a stop and the flow of supplies to this country will cease. It is no good planning for a limited war or for only one aspect of war. I heard of a plan during the war for making provision for safe

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storage in some dockyards, and I hope the noble Viscount will be able to give us some assurance about that matter.
We have heard something about the importance of training facilities. There is nothing in the Explanatory Statement about the training facilities and the equipment that are being provided. The scientists are developing very complex and probably highly efficient weapons of defence and attack, but all that work and ingenuity will be completely wasted if the men do not know how to use them. During the last war equipment was often not used as well as it might have been because training facilities were not available, largely because the money was not pro-vided in peace time. I hope that that sort of economy is not being made now. That particularly applies to the provision of anti-submarine equipment and training. I hope the provision of training facilities is going on alongside development of the weapons themselves.
I was very interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, asking about the success of the Dartmouth entry, and I hope the noble Viscount will tell us something about that matter. From present and past naval officers I have heard a good deal of criticism of the new entry at sixteen. There is one point, which may or may not be true but which is widely believed, that at any entry the orders are that 50 per cent. is to come from Government-controlled schools. Is that true or not? If it is true, it seems to me that officers are being selected on the basis that it is a fine career and everybody ought to have an opportunity of going into it, and not on the basis of providing the best officer.
Lastly I come to a subject which I have raised before in your Lordships' House—namely, the question of the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors, which has already been touched upon. Before this rearmament programme started, the Corps was seriously undermanned. Plans for arming Merchant Navy ships in time of war and for doing fundamental research by members of the Corps could not go forward. Now, with the new rearmament programme, the situation is disastrous and becoming more and more disastrous every year as the programme develops. The Eastham Committee recommended a figure of 300 as the number of the Corps. The Admiralty have not
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accepted that Report, but have never produced any other figure. The number of men in the Corps last autumn was 175. Last year there were three dockyard entrants; no university entrants; three retirements, because the officers could no longer stand the conditions; and five retirements due to age—a net wastage of five. It takes a minimum of five years to train a Naval Constructor, so that we cannot solve the problem of the lack of numbers by bringing people in from merchant ship work. Building a warship is quite different from building a merchant ship. Constructors must have experience of warship design and construction before they are much use for naval designing. There is a serious danger of overworking the present staff, and we had one or two examples in the last war of what happens when that occurs. I understand that officers are already being withdrawn from sea appointments because there is insufficient staff in the design department. That was a point on which the commanders-in-chief in the last war were all agreed: that there should be more seagoing experience for the constructor officers.
It was in 1946 that the Eastham Committee first reported, and a year ago some rather niggardly pay increases were granted. Over a year ago we were promised that the new arrangements of pay for constructors under training would be announced soon; and again last December we were promised that there would be an announcement almost at once. As has already been stated in another place, constructors under training at Greenwich receive 16s. 6d. a day, and they wear lieutenants' uniform; but sub-lieutenants, R.N., receive 17s. 6d. a day, and lieutenants 21s. 6d. a day, with 8s. 6d. marriage allowance, if they are married. Many of the constructors of twenty-four and twenty-five years of age are not too young to get married in these enlightened days. The constructors have to live on 16s. 6d. a day, when their brother officers at Greenwich, with whom they are supposed to make friends, are getting 17s. 6d. and 21s. 6d. a day. Words fail me to describe the injustice and incredible stupidity of that from the point of view of the Navy. It would not be so bad if a definite announcement were made, instead of this continued delay, month after month and year after year.
I believe that it has been suggested that they shall be given an increase in

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pay, but that they will have to pay for their accommodation. Words fail me to describe the crass stupidity of all the delay that has gone on over the Royal Corps: it is unjust to the men, and unfair to the Navy and the country. In all fairness to the First Lord, I do not think it is his fault. I believe the blame can be put fairly and squarely on the Treasury—people who do not know how long it takes to train a constructor. They believe that if we are short in wartime we can bring them in from outside. But that is not so. I hope that the First Lord will take the strongest possible line he can to persuade the people at the Treasury to appreciate that something must be done now, this month, about these men. It is not only for the men at Greenwich themselves that I am speaking, but because those men have the greatest influence on new men coming into the Corps, from the universities or elsewhere. How can we expect to get recruits when the men already in the Corps are dissatisfied and thinking of coming out? We shall not get them, as experience has shown. We shall not get recruits until we make those conditions, and all the conditions, suitable for the high training and great responsibilities which the members of the Corps have.
The amount required to place the constructor lieutenants on the same basis as naval officers is of the order of £2,500 or £3,000 a year. Is that really more than we can afford in Naval Estimates involving tens of millions of pounds? I know what the answer is. It is that if that were done it would mean putting the whole scientific Civil Service on the same basis; and the Treasury are scared stiff that if they put up the pay of these new constructors, men who are vital to the naval service, they will have to put up the pay of hundreds of men in the scientific Civil Service. If they have courage, they will not have to do that. The men of the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors have far more responsibility, both administrative and technical. There is no possibility of their moving about from one department to another when promotion is bad. They cannot go to an academic job in a university or a technical college, as men in the scientific Civil Service have been doing. Very few jobs are open to them, and promotion is not nearly so easy or so good as in the scientific Civil Service.
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It is time that this situation was cleared up: it has gone on far too long. If a constructor is lost by retirement through dissatisfaction, it takes five years to get back to the position obtaining before he retired. In a few years' time the situation will be desperate. It is already so desperate that the other day, when the Admiralty advertised all over the country for naval architects from private yards, they got only eight, in spite of all they could do. I hope the noble Viscount will take that to heart, and will see what he can do with his friends at the Treasury. I know that he has done all he can, but for the sake of the Service in the future he must try again. I am sorry to have laboured that point, but I do not think its importance can be overstated.
I hope that in the future we shall see a little more flexibility in the ordering of ships. Let us have more responsibility given to the people who really know what they are about. Let them not be overridden all the time by secretaries, principal secretaries and undersecretaries saying that they cannot do this or that. The Government have been saying that we want to raise the standard of technologists. Let them start by raising their status in the Admiralty service and per-haps other people will follow suit.
4.57 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I desire to join with those of your Lordships who have expressed gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, for initiating this debate. It has now become a practice year by year to follow the Estimates debate in another place with one in your Lordships' House. I do not complain about that; I feel that it is as well that we should have a debate on naval questions in this House from time to time. The value of that principle has been displayed by the number of questions which have been put to me this afternoon. The terms of the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, this afternoon are to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the proposals contained in the Explanatory Memorandum of the Navy Estimates are adequate for the defence of the country. I can go further and assure the noble Lord that His Majesty's Government are satisfied that the Estimates, with any Supplementary Estimates that may be required during the course of the financial year,

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will make the necessary provision for man-power, money, ships and equipment.
It is not easy to follow without a certain amount of repetition a debate which has so recently taken place in another place dealing with this same subject. I am fortunate, however in having in another place two competent colleagues, in the persons of the Parliamentary Secretary and the Civil Lord, who in the course of the debate on the Navy Estimates explained in broad outline Naval policy and the reason for the increased expenditure as compared with the last financial year—namely, an increase of about 40 per cent. They also explained the technical needs of the Royal Navy in man-power and equipment. The Parliamentary Secretary dealt fully, too, with the work of the Fleet during last year, and called particular attention to those units which since July last have been called upon to fight with the United Nations forces in the Korean war. Your Lordships will agree that I should say a few words of appreciation of the way in which the Services have conducted themselves during those operations. They had to fight in very bad conditions, particularly during the winter, yet the standard maintained has been very high, and the number of casualties has, fortunately, been very low. His Majesty's ships, together with those of the Commonwealth, have worked in close and ever increasing co-operation with the United States Navy and the fighting men of all the United Nations. The morale of our forces has been excellent. Acts of gallantry have been numerous, and great tributes have been paid to the outstanding service given.
In Malaya, too, the Royal Navy has played a full part, for throughout the year frigates and motor launches have maintained constant patrols over the coast to prevent arms and reinforcements reaching the bandits by sea, while since July last the 3rd Royal Naval Commando Brigade has been engaged in anti-bandit operations, a duty which is hazardous and unspectacular but of great and supreme importance. Apart from these activities, the work of the Royal Navy during the year has been concentrated on training and exercises. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, raised that point. I will endeavour to deal with sea-time later in my speech, but I should like to assure the noble Lord that a good deal of attention
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is being paid to exercises of all kinds. Exercises have been conducted with representative ships from North Atlantic Treaty countries, and from the Commonwealth. Indeed, no fewer than twenty of these exercises were carried out during last year. There have been many operational exchanges of ships between ourselves and other Commonwealth countries, while units of the Royal Canadian and Royal Australian Navies, and of the Royal Dutch Navy, have visited Londonderry for anti-submarine exercises and, later, exercises with the Fleet. It can be said that, whatever criticism there is as to the adequacy of our own Fleet, among the Commonwealth countries as a whole we now possess a substantial number of naval ships and forces of all kinds which are a great addition to our potential naval strength.
I should like to deal briefly with the question of naval rearmament, because it has been much criticised here to-day. It is true that it consists to a considerable degree of the acceleration of a carefully thought out plan. It may have taken too long to think out that plan, but it is intended for the development of a well-balanced Navy, capable of carrying out the tasks assigned to it, both in peace and in war. The cost of this accelerated programme for production and research during this financial year is about double the amount spent last year. The full programme, together with current construction when completed, will add no fewer than 232 new ships to our existing naval strength. These will include the powerful Fleet carriers such as the "Eagle," which is now taking her trials, the "Ark Royal" and carriers of the "Hermes" class, and eight destroyers of the "Daring" class. The noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, referred to the delay from the time of launching to the time of delivery of these ships to the Fleet. I can assure him that six of these eight new destroyers will take their trials before the end of this year, and we are hoping that the other two will do so early next year. This programme also provides for twenty-four frigates. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, was anxious to know when these frigates will be completed. There is the accelerated plan which was announced in the latter part of last year, but that does not mean that all the ships will be constructed during that period.

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We are hoping to accelerate and complete the work within the next three financial years.
LORD TEYNHAM: Can the noble Lord indicate when one, two or perhaps three of the ships will be completed?
VISCOUNT HALL: We are hoping that some of the frigates will be completed next year. Indeed, seventeen of them are already ordered. It must be remembered that there has been a considerable amount of scientific research carried out in order to meet the menace of the submarine, with which I shall deal later. We are putting into these ships, as we are putting into those which are being modernised and reconverted, all the scientific knowledge which has been obtained as a result of information received during and since the last war. Here again, I think we are meeting the point which was made by the noble Lord, Lord Winster. The number of ships being brought into service with the Fleet from the Reserve will be sixty. They will be added to the ships which are operational and under training at the present time. We are hoping from time to time to bring other ships from the Reserve as trained man-power becomes available.
The noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, referred to the training of men. I can assure him that we are getting a very intelligent recruit, one who is able to absorb the training which is provided for him to use all this new scientific equipment which is being provided in the ships now under construction and in those being modernised and reconverted at the present time. The figure of refits of the Reserve Fleet has already been given. There are no fewer than 450 refits of the Reserve Fleet, some of which have come round for the second time within the last two and a half years. In addition to refitting, we are storing many more Reserve Fleet ships, and we are building up stocks which will greatly assist naval preparedness. We have a very large programme of complete modernisation and conversions. We are modernising fleet carriers, cruisers, twenty-five fleet destroyers and about eighty frigates.
I wish to assure the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, that the question of the con-version of the forty-five fleet destroyers
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into anti-submarine frigates is a decision which was taken after great consideration; and it will be a great advantage to have these destroyers-cum-frigates doing the work which they will be called upon to do. There again, the equipment which was used during the War became obsolete at the end of the War; and instead of putting obsolete or even some of the more modern equipment into the destroyer as a destroyer, we wanted to put into the destroyer all the known equipment to meet the menace of the submarine. There is another aspect which is of great importance. We can convert three of these destroyers for the cost of one frigate. In addition to that, we can convert them far more quickly than we can construct a frigate. So for every reason I think it can be said that these frigates or destroyer-cum-frigates will be some of the most useful of the anti-submarine ships which we shall have.
Questions have been raised about the completion of the "Tiger" class cruisers. I know that this question has arisen year after year, and I want to tell noble Lords that we are not yet ready to proceed with the completion of these cruisers. Further research work is required with their fire control and gunnery, and we are satisfied that it is better for the three of them to wait, rather than that two of them should be fitted with some equipment which is not as good as that with which we hope, in the course of the next two or three years, to equip these ships, to make them the most powerful cruisers of their kind in the world. The noble Lord also raised the question of H.M.S. "Cumberland." Her work is an entirely new departure, for she has been fitted out as a floating laboratory for sea-going trials of equipment. It has been discovered that operational ships cannot be made available for such trials for sufficiently long periods, and the use of H.M.S. "Cumberland" would prevent the otherwise inevitable delays in bringing to fruition much valuable work. This year's trials will include ship's stabilisers which, if successful, will effect considerable saving in equipment, power, and weight by reducing the rolling and yawing motion. Two gunnery systems, together with their associated radar equipment, will also be investigated. When these have been completed, further gunnery systems are waiting for tests, and later H.M.S. "Cumberland" may be used for trials of guided missiles.

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The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, referred to the fact that the number of cruisers we have is very small, and that we should increase the numbers. We must, whatever is said, build and prepare to meet the menace with which we are con-fronted at present—and as the noble Lord, Lord Winster, rightly said, the menace, so far as Russia is concerned, is not that of surface ships: it is the submarine; and without consideration of the strength of the forces which are allied with us at present, we cannot but add our quota to the Allies' pool to deal with this menace. The strongest arm of the Soviet Navy is not surface ships, not battleships or carriers, but submarines. I am not suggesting that they are not building cruisers —they are doing so: but not at the same speed as they are building submarines, which are, after all, the greatest threat to us in the event of total war. To prevent any underestimation or exaggeration of this threat, it should be generally known that I would not disagree with the figure of the total submarine strength of the Soviet fleet as being about 360— which figure is frequently quoted. Compared with the total submarine strength of the German Navy at the beginning of the last war that is a large figure, but it should be remembered that these sub-marines are dispersed over a wide area. Some are in the White Sea, some in the Baltic, some in the Black Sea; and, of course, some are in the Far East. I should say that a large proportion of them would be on the Western rather than on the Far Eastern side.
The Soviet submarine potential is made up of several types, varying from the large "K" class, an extremely powerful submarine, capable of operating over great distances, and able to remain and patrol for considerable periods—the number of these submarines is not very large—to the medium submarine called the SHCH, which is also an effective and dangerous class of about 600 tons, and the smaller coastal type submarine of about 200 tons. The number also includes some ex-German battery-propelled types. These ex-German sub-marines are a type with which we know the Russians have been experimenting. We have them; the Americans have them. They are a type which will spurt at a speed, not of twenty knots—I repeat what I said some two years ago, that we do not know of a submarine which has
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as great a submerged speed as twenty knots or over—but, for a period at any rate, of about sixteen and a half to seventeen knots.
There was another aspect of naval war-fare which was not mentioned during the course of the debate, and your Lordships will, I am sure, excuse me if I deal with it. I refer to the menace of the mine. The Soviet navy is powerfully equipped for mining both by sea and by air; and it is expected that in a future war we shall be faced with an even greater sea-mining threat than that which arose in the last war, for we have ample evidence that there will be a large-scale mining campaign. In addition, the Soviet Government is in possession of all types of mines known to the Western Powers at the end of the last war. Virtually all Russian surface ships are fitted for mine-laying. They also have well-developed mines suitable for laying from the torpedo tubes of all submarines; and, in addition, bomber aircraft can be used for this purpose. It is against the background of these threats that naval research has been conducted, and is now being applied to ships and to aircraft.
At the risk of taking up some time, I should like to deal with some of the scientific research which is going on at the present time. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary in another place outlined much of the research and development problems arising from speed of attack both in the air and under water. I must add to his remarks that, in addition to meeting this particular problem, we have to ensure that the size and weight of our weapons are held within reasonable limits if they are to be fitted in ships of suitable size, ships which must themselves be propelled at greater speeds and with a longer range than previously. Much of our research effort is, therefore, devoted to making substantial reductions in the size of such articles as electronic components and to obtaining greatly improved performance from a given weight in the use of new materials and techniques. The need to save seconds and to conserve man-power has led to a far greater degree of automatic control in our equipment, but this has been done only where the price paid in size and complexity has not been too high. In this connection a fundamental consideration in the design of all equipment is not only

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its performance but also its ease of manufacture, operation and maintenance.
The design of our ships is continually being improved, partly as the result of the knowledge acquired from a long series of experiments on old ships. In the field of marine propulsion it has long been known that we cannot be content with anti-submarine escorts of moderate speed, but must give them a good margin of speed over any submarine with which they may be called upon to deal. This entails in the larger ships steam turbine machinery working at far higher temperatures and pressures than any hitherto used in the Royal Navy. In smaller ships, where diesel machinery is more appropriate, effort is directed towards obtaining a large horse-power from a small lightweight engine. The gas turbine offers this in certain classes of ships, and more than one model is being developed at the present time. The first fruits of other post-war research on marine propulsion have already enabled us to pass from the development to the production phase of a first-class small engine which takes up a very small space and which can produce a great speed. This knowledge is now being applied and used, and ships will soon be fitted with this type of engine. This knowledge can in future benefit the Mercantile Marine as well as the Royal Navy. We are also still studying systems using oxygen-bearing fuels and nuclear energy for submarines. These studies offer promise and all are the subject of further research.
I will not proceed to deal with the question of radar. It was fully dealt with. But I want to assure your Lordships that our scientists, engineers and naval officers are not controlled by the Secretaries or Under-Secretaries. They are men of an independent mind, with a good knowledge, and are sufficiently assertive to get their own way. I must say that not only the Royal Navy but also those navies which are allied with us are benefiting from our research, as we are benefiting from the research of other North Atlantic Treaty Powers. Indeed, our scientists, engineers and naval officers are constantly exchanging knowledge through reciprocal visits, and a Mission is maintained in Washington to facilitate this. As a result of these efforts, we are seeking a fusion of our production which will enable both countries to achieve much quicker results.
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I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, referred to naval aviation. Good progress is being made in this branch of the naval service, and it is intended that the front line strength shall be substantially increased by this new accelerated programme. It has been equipped with the most modern machines designed and built specially for naval air. Some are at present being delivered, whilst several new types will come into operation during the next two years. They will consist of fighters, day and night, interception planes, anti-submarine strikes, reconnaissance, search and rescue. We are also proceeding with the use of the helicopter for anti-submarine work, search and rescue. The experiment to which he referred was, of course, a success.
LORD WINSTER: A great success.
VISCOUNT HALL: The difficulty is that unless there is a little more space than at present exists on the decks of some merchant ships, it is rather difficult to use even a helicopter. But the noble Lord can be assured that we are ordering helicopters with a view to carrying out further research and are using them for the purposes for which we know they are so well suited. The present trend of naval aircraft development is to produce still faster and heavier planes to provide for increased range, heavier offensive loads and higher performances generally. A governing factor in such development is, however, the ability of carriers to operate aircraft, and for this reason fleet carriers are being modernised to enable them to operate the latest types of aircraft. They are becoming still heavier and heavier. When we think of the lightweight aircraft which were used at the beginning of the last war and compare them with the huge aircraft which are being used now, it is really frightening, and one questions how far we are going in the building of these huge, heavy planes. The result is the need for the modernisation of aircraft carriers, which were constructed originally for the use of much lighter and slower planes.
We are still carrying out experiments with the flexible form of deck landing. The deck would consist of pneumatic cells, joined together to form a carpet to absorb the shock of landing. That will

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enable aircraft without undercarriages to be operated from carriers. Trials afloat have shown that undercarriage-less jets can be landed on deck in fair weather with little difficulty. As the next step, it is planned to progress this development ashore in association with the Ministry of Supply. This will be done by using equipment similar to that needed in a carrier. These developments hold out good possibilities which, if fully successful, will be a great boon.
The noble Lords, Lord Winster and Lord Teynham, referred to the utilisation of man-power. It is true that we have a large amount of man-power, but we also have commitments. The naval air arm requires almost one-third of naval personnel. A large proportion of naval air arm work is done at air stations. Taking into consideration the naval air arm, Marines, W.R.N.S. and others, who make up Vote A of 143,000, no less than something like 45 per cent. of the total are having sea service at the present time. By the end of the year, and as a result of this accelerated programme, we are hoping that Vote A will be increased to 152,000, which will enable us to bring the ships to which I have referred from reserve into service with the Fleet, and provide the sea time which I entirely agree is so necessary. A sailor is a sailor, and his work is mainly at sea, and we want our sailors to get as much sea time as possible.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, referred to what might be regarded as time-expired men—men who have reached the end of their seven or twelve years' service and have been retained for another eighteen months. That applies not only to the Royal Navy but also to the other two Services. The decision was taken because this extension of time was essential to assist in bringing the Far Eastern Fleet up to its war strength, to meet the demands made as a result of the Korean conflict, and, at the same time, to man the ships which are coming into commission. I have already pointed out that we are hoping that the "Eagle" will commission in the course of a very short time. As regards the "Darings," four may be commissioned before the end of this year and the other four during the course of next year. This extension of service was essential, and, on the whole, whilst there has been criticism from some ships' companies, I think the situation has been
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accepted by most of them. In dealing with personnel, I can say that, on the whole, recruitment is satisfactory, but we do want additional recruits for air crews. The one shortage which concerns the Board of Admiralty at the present time is the limited number who are offering themselves as air crew. Whilst there has been some slight improvement, there is still an urgent need. We also want recruits for short-service periods, with a possibility of being taken into the permanent Service during the period of eight years if they are suitable. If they are unsuitable, there is a substantial gratuity paid to them at the end of their period.
We also require a number of volunteers from National Service men to train as pilots and observers. We would welcome a number of applications for this work. There is still a shortage of higher and experienced ratings, and this continues to concern us. I thought the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, was a little critical in this regard. He must realise that one of the great difficulties in the matter of the scarcity of experienced ratings was the lack of recruitment during the war period. Indeed, there was no regular recruitment apart from boy recruits, and the long-service senior ratings who are required at the present time are men who joined the Navy in the early 'thirties, have done their twelve years and have also had a very hard war. It has been very difficult to keep them. It is true that there was some delay in agreeing to the payment of the bounty, but that has now been paid and we are hoping that we shall get still more than has been promised. But without these people we just cannot carry on as we should like.
To back up our Regular Forces we have a steadily increasing body of Reserves which number more than 50,000 of all types. But our Reserves are now benefiting by a growing number of National Service men. Since January, 1949, 10,000 of these men have either passed through the Navy and gone on to the Reserve, or are still serving. There will be greater additions during this year.
LORD STRABOLGI: Does that include Marines as well?
VISCOUNT HALL: Yes, it does. I should like to say a word about the R.N.V.R. air branch, which has been maintained at almost full air crew

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strength during the last year and has accomplished a total of 7,000 flying hours during that period. The standard achieved during the annual periods of continuous training compares favourably with that of the first-line squadrons. We intend to form a fifth R.N.V.R. air squadron at Ford, in Southern England. This will meet the many applications for R.N.V.R. air crews in that area.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, asked about officer recruitment. I assure them that officer recruitment generally is quite satisfactory. The first two 16-age entries have now passed out of the Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, and have gone to the training cruiser. Reports indicate that these cadets will maintain the high standard of the naval officer entry under the earlier system. The standard of entry is good—about 200 for each entry —and the intake into the Navy at each entry is about thirty. We expect much larger numbers at the next entry. The noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, asked whether it was true that there was a stipulation that 50 per cent. of the new entry should come from State schools. There is no stipulation of that kind. Boys from any school, whether it is a secondary, grammar or public school, can apply, and, of course, there is keen competition for the places which are available. I think it can be said that, on the whole, the standard of naval officer under the sixteen entry is as good as it was under the thirteen-and-a-half entry. The special entry is maintaining its standard.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, asked about the promotion of officers from the lower deck. During last year no fewer than thirty-eight C.W. candidates were promoted to acting sub-lieutenant, and altogether, including promotions to branch rank, 23 per cent. of the total number of promotions last year came from the lower deck, which I think is a very good record. I have been asked about the change in the uniforms of the R.N.V.R. and the R.N.R. The arguments for the change were well put by Lord Winster—namely, that there should be no distinction between officers in the R.N.V.R. and R.N.R. and officers in the Regular Navy. That is what we are aiming at, and at last we have done something towards it by doing away with the wavy stripe. But it must
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be remembered that there are many Reserve officers who were very proud of their wavy stripe. In deciding whether or not to proceed with the change we had to consider carefully the sentimental attachment of so many officers to that stripe. After approaching official organisations representative of the various classes of Reserve officers, we discovered that in the main they were in favour of the change. Indeed, so far I have not had any representation, with the exception of that made by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, in respect of this change.
LORD TEYNHAM: Perhaps the noble Viscount will allow me to intervene for a moment. My suggestion was that if it is desirable to make any change at all, the change should be to sweep away all distinction between the various types of officers. That was my main point.
VISCOUNT HALL: That is the difference between myself and the noble Lord: he has always been a young man in a hurry, but we think we ought to go by stages. I feel that stage one, more distinctive than anything else, was the question of the stripe, and that matter is now being dealt with. Questions have also been raised in relation to the flying of the Blue Ensign by British merchant officers who served in the Reserve. As Lord Teynham rightly stated, we have reduced the numbers of Reserve personnel serving in a ship from sixteen to four. If the captain has been an officer in one of the Reserve branches he can fly the Blue Ensign. I will certainly take note of what the noble Lord said about leaving it to the officer himself, if there is just one Reserve officer—namely, the commanding officer—in the ship, and whether that can be done. It is cutting it rather fine, I think, to do it in that way, but I will certainly look at this point to see whether something can be done.
Before I conclude, I must make some reference to the Merchant Navy, upon which this nation so much depends during war and peace, and without which the nation could not hope to survive. The Admiralty, in their preparedness programme, are making provision (this matter was referred to by Lord Winster) for the protection of merchant ships during war, for we have been storing materials for degaussing for a long time, and large orders have been placed

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recently, as part of the accelerated defence programme. I am hoping that this work will be proceeded with as soon as possible, with the full consent and co-operation of the ship owners. Sufficient stocks of dual-purpose weapons for arming the entire Merchant Navy in an emergency have already been accumulated, and are suitably distributed throughout the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, together with large quantities of auxiliary equipment. Ship strengthening for guns was included in the construction of all ships in the Service at the end of the war, and with but a few exceptions almost all ships which have been built since the beginning of 1947 have been so constructed. We are hoping to deal with the few which have not had this operation carried out.
A system of improved sub-division of ships proposed by the Board has recently been incorporated in a very satisfactory proportion of newly constructed ships. The question of extending the bulkheads and improving the sub-division of ships already in the Service is also under consideration at the Admiralty. We have reconstituted the Merchant Navy defence courses, similar to those which were held before and during the last war. These courses have commenced in London, Liverpool. Glasgow and Newcastle-on-Tyne. Their object is to familiarise Merchant Navy personnel with the measures which would be taken by the Royal Navy for the protection of the Mercantile Marine in time of war, and the part which they will be expected to play in an emergency. They also include gunnery instruction, of which sufficient is taught to enable naval officers to become armament officers on defensively equipped merchant ships and men to become members of their gun crews. Officers of the Royal Navy are attached for short periods in merchant ships, to enable them to achieve a better understanding of the problems of the Merchant Navy officers and of the capabilities of their ships. These arrangements will, I have no doubt, preserve and foster the good relationship which has always existed between these two Services, particularly in war time. In connection with the matter of merchant shipping it is interesting to note the flood of orders which has flowed into shipbuilding yards during the last year or so, and which are still accumulating. In
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1949, the total number of orders placed in shipbuilding yards in this country were for less than 400,000 tons. In 1950—last year—the figure was 1,570,000 tons. From January 1 to March 30 this year—three months—the total number of orders placed amounted to 1,466,000 tons. It might be asked what is the position with regard to the placing of orders for naval ships. We have already discussed this matter with warship builders, and berths are already being kept in some of the larger yards for the purpose of dealing with any naval orders which are forthcoming.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, asked me questions with regard to the improved conditions of service and pay in the Naval Ordnance Inspector's Department. I interrupted Lord Teynham, and reminded him that after the deputation had waited upon me some increase of pay was made. I should not like him to think that the naval ordnance inspectors were satisfied with the increases which they received—it would be misleading to say that. Nevertheless, some increase was made. Then there was a question as to the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors, and I can understand the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, feeling so strongly about this matter. I have always maintained that the Corps is one of the most important branches of the Admiralty Service. It cannot be said that nothing has been done to improve conditions. In fact, much has been done, particularly in relation to the Director and some of the Deputy Directors. To-day I have been informed that an increase has been given to the constructors. It is not large—an increase of £50 a year on the minimum and of £125 a year on the maximum salaries. The noble Viscount may regard it as a little cynical for me to say that we are still dealing with the question of students. I promise him that I will press for the settlement of this matter as soon as possible. I appreciate their difficulties, but we have our difficulties as well. It is one of those things with which, un-fortunately, we have not been able to get to grips, but I hope that we shall do so in the very near future.
LORD TEYNHAM: Does the noble Viscount intend to make clear that this increase to the Royal Corps of Naval

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Constructors has been made since the deputation, of which I was a member, saw the noble Viscount?
VISCOUNT HALL: With regard to the increases to the Director and Deputy Directors I think that these have been made since the noble Lord saw me, but I should not like to be sure about that. So far as the constructors are concerned, the news came through to-day.
I am afraid that I have kept your Lordships and tried your patience. I entirely agree with what noble Lords have said: that, with all the scientific and mechanical changes which are taking place in the Royal Navy, its role remains the same—that is, to keep the sea roads open, to prevent any interruption in sea traffic, and to deny the seas to the ships of the enemy. This can be done only by maintaining an adequate well-balanced Navy, including all types of the best-equipped ships, to protect our Commonwealth and world-wide commitments, and to make our proper contribution to the Atlantic Treaty Organisation. This powerful group of twelve nations, every one making its full contribution to the Defence services—sea, air and land—set up, not for the purpose of aggression but to ensure world peace, should, in the event of peace being broken, be sufficiently strong to overcome the enemy, whoever that enemy may be. That is still the purpose of the Royal Navy, and it is for that purpose that we require the money which is contained in the Estimates.
5.52 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will agree that we have had an interesting debate this afternoon, and have covered a large field. We are indebted to the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty for giving us so much information. We all join with the noble Viscount in our appreciation of the great work done by the Royal Navy in Korea and Malaya. I was a little disappointed in his statement with reference to the construction of new frigates and the dates of their completion. I hope that their construction will be accelerated as much as possible. I was somewhat surprised to hear that the three cruisers in question are not yet to be proceeded with, and are to await further
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experiments. I suggest that the three cruisers should be completed and three more laid down. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, said that we had only twenty-six cruisers, which is a quite inadequate number for the work they have to carry out. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, made reference, and rightly so, to the menace of minelaying by Russia, and said that a great deal of scientific research was being done by this country. But what he failed to tell us was about the minesweepers that are to be constructed to deal with this potential heavy attack by mines. I know that a number of these ships are to be laid down, but we know very little about the completion dates. Are all the materials for building these ships available? Can the noble Viscount assure us that we shall have a large number of minesweepers, say 50 per cent., laid down in the next twelve months? These are the important points we ought to know. Again, I was somewhat disappointed that the noble Viscount said nothing about Coastal Command. We have pressed on numerous occasions the question of Coastal Command, and I feel that I must reserve the right to put down at some future date a Motion to call special attention to Coastal Command. I do not want to press these points this afternoon, how-ever, and I beg leave of the House to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  FESTIVAL STAMPS AND COINS
  FESTIVAL STAMPS AND COINS