Sitting of 30 November 1950

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION

    1944 Act (Operation)
    Mr. Ralph Morleyasked the Minister of Education when he intends to put into operation Part III of the Education Act, 1944.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): It is my intention that Part III of the Education Act, 1944, should be brought into operation as soon as I can be sure that it can be effectively implemented. This will not be possible until the country's building position and the supply of teachers, particularly of women teachers, have improved to a sufficient extent to enable schools to remedy, within the period of time which would have to be specified under Section 71 (1) of the Act, whatever shortcomings in premises and staffing might be found.
    Mr. Morley: Can my right hon. Friend say what action it is now competent for a local authority to take if His Majesty's Inspector's report on a particular independent school states that it is housed in totally unsuitable premises, and staffed by unqualified teachers?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The local authority can prosecute the parents for not providing education for the children suitable to their age and ability, as laid down in the Act.

    Grammar School Places
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education what steps he intends to take to see that local education authorities whose percentage of grammar school places is low make efforts to increase the percentage.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Grey), on 13th November.
    Mr. Morley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the duty has been laid upon him by the Education Act of 1944 to ensure that there shall be a varied and comprehensive system of education in every local authority area? How can it be varied and comprehensive if there are not sufficient grammar school places?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is also laid upon me to see that there are sufficient places for all children between the ages of five to 15 and the amount of building required to meet the increasing bulge in the age group makes it absolutely impossible to provide secondary schools and primary schools at the same time. As a consequence, 80 per cent. of the school building has to be in primary schools and to make up the difference required to give everyone the type of education required will need a great deal more expenditure in years to come.

    School Building Programme
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education whether places will be available for all the children of school age in 1953.
    Mr. Tomlinson: On present plans, the school building programme will provide in total the number of places required for children of statutory school age in 1953, but I can give no guarantee that there will not be temporary local shortages.
    Commander Maitland: Does not that answer conflict very considerably with the speech the Minister recently made at Bristol, where he expressed great anxiety that throughout the country this target would not be met?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I do not remember making a speech recently in Bristol. I certainly have not given any figures anywhere in contradiction of this answer. What I did say somewhere, whether it was Bristol or not I do not know, was that in order that these figures should be met it was necessary that the local education authorities should get on with the programme.

    School Meals and Milk
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Minister of Education the number in receipt of, and the cost of, free meals, free milk,

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    cheap meals and cheap milk, in schools at the outbreak of the last war, and to the latest convenient date.
    Mr. Tomlinson: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Marlowe: In view of the difficulties which have existed since the war, is it not fortunate that provision was made by legislation for all these matters by a Conservative Government before the war?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I only wish that more provision had been made by any sort of Government. It is the implementation that matters, not the legislation.
    Following is the answer:

    1938–1939

    1949–1950

    No. of pupils in grant aided schools receiving:—

    1. Free midday meals

    111,000

    (a)

    310,000

    (b)

    2. Midday meals on payment

    50,000

    (a)

    2,540,000

    (b)

    3. Free milk

    560,000

    4,700,000

    (b)

    4. Milk on payment

    1,940,000

    Nil

    Cost to public funds in:—

    1. 1938–1939:

    Meals and Milk (1 to 4 above)

    £1·47 million (c)

    2. 1949–1950:

    (i) Meals (1 and 2 above)

    £27 million

    (ii) Milk (3 above)

    £6·6 million

    (a) Refer only to Public Elementary Schools: no record is available for Secondary Schools.

    (b) Represent numbers recorded on a day in October, 1949.

    (c) It is not possible to apportion this expenditure accurately between meals and milk.

    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Education what progress has been made to secure a supply of school milk to the 14 schools in Norfolk that have been without a supply during this term.
    Mr. Tomlinson: A milk supply has been arranged for four of the 14 schools and every effort is still being made to find a supplier for the remaining 10.
    Mr. Dye: Is it not rather strange that in a county which is producing far more milk than ever before, and is sending it to other parts of the country, children in schools there should be without a supply of milk for no other reason than that there is not a supply in the immediate neighbourhood but there is a supply available further away?
    Mr. Tomlinson: These children have had milk previously, and I am given to understand that the supplier has given up delivery and that the difficulty is one of obtaining a supplier at the price which is normally paid. The question of the price paid is a matter for the Ministry of Food.
    Captain Crookshank: Could the Minister say whether the difficulty arises out of the recent changes made in milk distributing margins by the Minister of Food?
    Mr. Tomlinson: No, I do not think so, but it is a question of the amount paid to the supplier for the milk.
    Mr. Dye: Surely this matter could have been settled before now in view of the fact that it has been known about since last July. That is surely time enough to produce a better result than 4 out of 14.
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is strange that this difficulty should have arisen in only 10 schools out of the total number of schools in Norfolk. It seems to me that in this matter there is some reason in addition to that suggested.

    Film Strips
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education how far it is the policy of his Department to encourage local education authorities to lend film strips to independent and private schools.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I think this is a matter which is best left to the discretion of local education authorities. I understand, however, that it is the general practice for schools of all kinds to build up their own libraries of film strips for use in teaching.
    Commander Maitland: Since the parents of children who are at independent or private schools help to pay for education in this country, surely the children at those schools should have the right to the film strips which are available in the hands of the local education authority? Will not the Minister make that clear to those local authorities which refuse?
    Mr. Tomlinson: There is no objection whatever to these strips being used in any kind of school when they are available, but I would point out that it is customary for schools themselves to own and purchase their films.

    School Children (Foot Comfort)
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Education whether there has been a recent survey on foot comfort among school children; and with what result.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The importance of giving attention to the condition of children's feet at the time of medical inspection is increasingly recognised by local education authorities. Several have carried out special surveys in recent years. These have suggested that many foot defects are due to ill-fitting or otherwise unsatisfactory footwear.
    Mr. Murray: Can the Minister say whether it is possible for him to impress upon authorities and parents the great need there is for stronger boots for children?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is a question not of stronger boots but of correctly fitting boots. Education in this matter is needed among parents as well as children.

    Schools, Norfolk (Dental Treatment)
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Education how many school dentists have been at work in Norfolk this term; and what proportion of the pupils are receiving dental attention.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Five, Sir. I understand that nearly half the school population of the area are receiving regular dental inspection and treatment.
    Mr. Dye: What about the other half?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Emergency treatment is available for the greater part of the other half, and where we can do so we are attempting to increase it.
    Mr. Iain MacLeod: Can the Minister say whether there has been any response in Norfolk or elsewhere to the circular sent out three or four months ago from the British Dental Association, urging local groups of dentists to take part in this work on a part-time basis?
    Mr. Tomlinson: There has been some response but I cannot, without notice, state to what extent.

    Examination Statistics
    Mr. Pannellasked the Minister of Education what are the percentages of
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    children that passed from the primary schools to grammar and technical schools, respectively, for the country as a whole, the comparable figures for the City of Leeds, the county of Kent and the division covered by the North-West Kent Divisional Executive.
    Mr. Tomlinson: As the answer contains a table of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:

    Area

    Summer 1950

    Percentage of children from maintained primary schools offered grammar school places

    Percentage of children from maintained primary schools offered places in secondary technical schools

    Leeds County Borough

    15·9

    4·3

    Kent

    15·8

    0·0

    North-West Kent Divisional Executive

    11·0

    0·0

    Notes
    1. In Kent children are transferred to secondary technical schools from secondary modern schools. The numbers thus offered places in secondary technical schools in 1950 give roughly comparable percentages for Kent and the North-West Kent Divisional Executive of 11·6 and 10·4.
    2. I have no exactly comparable figures for England and Wales, but in January, 1950, 20·6 per cent. of 13 year-old children holding free places in grant-aided schools were in grammar schools or grammar streams. The comparable percentage for technical schools and streams was 3·4.

    School Harvest Camps
    Mr. Hollisasked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the forthcoming discontinuation of school harvest camp schemes after 1951, he will consult with the National Farmers' Union to see in what ways pupils can be kept in contact with agricultural life and the educational benefit of those schemes preserved.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I should be happy to be associated with the discussion of this question which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture proposes to hold with the National Farmers' Union.
    Mr. Hollis: The Minister says that he will be happy to be associated with the discussion. Does he mean that he will be associated with it? Does he expect to be happy or not?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Irrespective of the happiness, I shall be glad to be associated with it.
    Mr. Hollis: Will the right hon. Gentleman be associated with it?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes. That was my intention in expressing happiness.

    University Students (Grants)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Education how many university students are now receiving State grants; and what are the maximum and the minimum grants paid to students.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The number of university students receiving State grants is at present 24,266, including some 3,800 intending teachers. The standard figures of maintenance for holders of State awards are set out in Administrative Memorandum 332 of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy. In addition allowances for wives and dependants are available for students under the further education and training scheme and for certain other older students.
    Mr. Awbery: Can my right hon. Friend say how the number of students and the amount paid in grants compare with the pre-war figures?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Not without notice.

    Teachers' Training Colleges
    Mr. Henry Brookeasked the Minister of Education how many more men and women respectively, could be accommodated in existing training colleges for teachers, if suitable applicants were available.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The general colleges are full. The colleges ofering housecraft training could take about 70 more women.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    7. M. JENNINGS,—To ask the Minister of Education if he is aware that the Durham County Council have sent out a circular
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    to all teachers under their authority asking them to produce evidence of membership of a trade union by a fixed date or lose their employment; and what action he proposes to take.
    Dr. Hill: On a point of order. May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker? In view of the importance of the material of the Question No. 7 and the fact that the appearance of this Question, together with another one, on the Order Paper led you to decide not to permit a Private Notice Question on the matter, could the Minister answer Question No. 7?
    Mr. Speaker: Certainly not. The Member who put down the Question was not here to ask it. That is his responsibility. It is not a point of order.

    EMIGRATION TO CANADA
    Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what discussions he has had with the Canadian Government in regard to the fall in emigration from the United Kingdom to Canada in recent years.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Gordon-Walker): None, Sir.
    Mr. Russell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he should initiate some discussions on this matter? I realise that it is primarily a matter for the Canadian Government, but is it not disadvantageous to this country that no action should be taken to speed up emigration?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I agree with the hon. Member that it is really a matter for the Canadian Government to initiate. We should be happy to have talks with them on this subject if they wish to initiate them.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is not one of the great barriers to emigration the financial policy of His Majesty's Government? Until that is altered, which can only be done by this Government, can talks possibly begin?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I take it that the hon. Member is referring to the limitation on the export of capital. That, of course, has had some effect, but I think it has not had a very great effect. I have,

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    naturally, looked very carefully into that point. We should like to relax our controls as soon as possible, but I do not think that this limitation has had a very great effect on the numbers of emigrants to Canada.
    Mr. A. R. W. Low: Has the Minister discussed that aspect of the problem with the Canadians? Surely the Canadian Government might give him a better founded view than the view which he himself has formed.
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I have discussed this matter with the Canadian authorities. I do not think that they disagree with what I have said.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Is not one of the causes of the fall in emigration to Canada, the result of the general policy of the Government, which has resulted in people being so much happier at home than they used to be?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    European Co-operation
    Mr. Shepherdasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement indicating the degree to which there has been reciprocity by the countries of Europe in response to our liberalisation of trade; and whether he is satisfied with the response.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): The Organisation for European Economic Co-operation recently decided that member countries should liberalise at least 60 per cent. of their imports on private account from one another of food, raw materials and manufactured goods counted separately. Returns made to the Organisation to show the action taken in fulfilment of this decision indicate that nearly all the principal trading countries concerned have fully conformed to it. Further liberalisation is expected by 1st February, 1951, and, meanwhile, I see no reason to be dissatisfied.
    Mr. Shepherd: Do not a number of the administrative difficulties which are put up by various countries have the effect of cutting down the benefit to us? Is it not a fact that owing to the influence of the utility scheme many countries are reluctant to do what they ought to do under this arrangement?
    Mr. Wilson: That and the other difficulties referred to by the hon. Member are being discussed with the countries concerned.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Is it not the case that under the scheme at present, industrial felts manufactured in this country cannot gain admission into Germany, whereas German industrial felts can be sold here at a lower price than in Germany? Is that not a form of organised dumping which these rules were framed to prevent?
    Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Member will put down a Question on these matters, I shall be glad to answer it.

    Umbrellas
    Mr. Follickasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the very heavy incidence of Purchase Tax on umbrellas, namely, 70 per cent., he will give consideration to making arrangements to permit the production of a utility umbrella at a reasonable price.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I could not introduce a utility umbrella merely in order to cut down the incidence of Purchase Tax. Any question of altering the rate of tax is, of course, one for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Follick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is almost impossible to buy an umbrella for less than about 35s., because of the very high incidence of Purchase Tax? Shop assistants, typists, cleaners, and other wage earners who may not have umbrellas and are unable to buy them at a reasonable price have their clothing spoiled in bad weather, which will be an encumbrance upon the Board of Trade, and, if they are laid up with colds, a disturbance for business.
    Mr. Wilson: My hon. Friend will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.

    Canadian Footwear (Tax)
    Mr. Errollasked the President of the Board of Trade how he intends to remove the discrimination against imported Canadian Purchase Tax paying rubber footwear caused by the bringing of identical and similar British-made footwear into the tax free utility scheme.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I cannot as yet add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on 9th November.
    Mr. Erroll: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this form of discrimination is affecting our trade with Canada somewhat adversely, and could not he speed up his decision?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir. There is no evidence that this is very gravely affecting our imports of footwear from Canada. In any case, the main item of interest to the Canadian exporters is that of Wellington boots which are not covered by the utility scheme.

    Phosphoric Acid
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is satisfied that there are adequate supplies of phosphoric acid available in view of its importance in the rearmament programme.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have no reason to suppose that the rearmament programme will suffer in any way through shortages of phosphoric acid.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Does not the Minister agree that the principal supplier of this acid says that there is a shortage and that he cannot supply? That being so, will the right hon. Gentleman reduce import duties, as has been done with other commodities, to make certain that adequate supplies are available?
    Mr. Wilson: I am ready to look into the question of supplies to any particular consumer; but I was asked about the rearmament programme, and I am assured that there should be no real difficulties in that connection.

    Census of Distribution
    Mr. Joseph Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will inform the House of the progress being made in the census of distribution; and when he expects the census to be completed.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Preparations for the census of distribution to be taken in 1951 are well advanced, and forms for completion will be issued to traders at the beginning of next year. If the forms are
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    returned promptly I hope that some tabulated results will be available by the end of 1952.
    Mr. Hale: Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will resist any pressure that this census should be abandoned?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I have already made clear the attitude of the Government on that question.

    Waste Paper Collection
    Mr. Profumoasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now received the plan from the Waste Paper Recovery Association which is intended to encourage local authorities to resume or increase waste paper collection; and if he will make a statement thereupon.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I have now received a scheme for a new national waste paper salvage campaign to be run in 1951 by the Waste Paper Recovery Association, who are offering prizes totalling £20,000 for the councils which collect the highest tonnage per head of their population per month. I am arranging for the details of the scheme to be published in the Board of Trade Journal. As I have already announced, the mills have agreed to guarantee a minimum price of £6 10s. a ton for mixed baled waste paper collected by local councils, with higher prices for better, sorted, grades. The mills undertake to accept all the paper offered to them by councils at those prices until the end of 1951, and, furthermore, if the market prices are higher, to pay the market price.
    I should like to emphasise the importance which I attach to an early resumption of collections by as many councils as possible, particularly those in urban and semi-urban areas. In taking this course they will be doing a national service, and will indirectly be aiding most branches of trade and industry in their own areas, which are dependent on paper or board supplies for one purpose or another.
    Mr. Profumo: Now that the Minister has completed this welcome scheme for the salvage of waste paper, and although I appreciate that he has circulated Departments on the subject of avoiding all waste of paper, may I ask cannot he

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    devise a constructive plan whereby the nationalised industries, Government Departments and local authorities could be encouraged, perhaps by the awarding of a prize, to save all the paper they can by using much less in their work?
    Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of what I said on the subject last Friday, when I stressed the need for maximum economy in private industry as well.
    Mr. Logan: Does this mean the scrapping of all Tory posters in Liverpool?

    Newsprint Supplies
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the President of the Board of Trade how much of the 100,000 tons of British-made newsprint allocated to the Commonwealth in 1951 has been earmarked for Malaya.
    Mr. H. Wilson: One thousand, eight hundred tons of British newsprint have been allocated for export to Malaya and Singapore in 1951.
    Mr. Macpherson: In view of the contribution that newspapers in Malaya are making to the solution of the emergency there, and also of the difficulty they are experiencing in getting newsprint at any price, will the Minister consider at least doubling the supply? Further, will he receive a deputation on the subject?
    Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman will realise the difficulty which I have in this connection, the more so when I am under strong pressure to reduce exports of newsprint from this country.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Remembering that Malaya is the only part of the British Empire now at war, and realising the urgent need for active propaganda by Press and other means, will not the Minister look once more at the question of this hopelessly inadequate allocation?
    Mr. Wilson: I am well aware of the need for newsprint in Malaya. We are doing what we can to help them. It might help if the hon. Gentleman would advise his right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) to stop asking for a reduction of exports from this country.
    Mr. N. Macphersonasked the President of the Board of Trade on what
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    grounds he has allotted to the Colonies less than 6 per cent. of the total 1951 allocation to the Commonwealth of newsprint manufactured in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The pattern of our newsprint exports follows, with some modifications, the long-term contracts made by United Kingdom mills, which, in turn, reflect our traditional pattern of trade.
    Mr. Macpherson: Does not the Minister realise that the action taken to cut down imports from dollar countries entirely alters the situation? Does he really think that such a very small proportion is an equitable one, having in mind the comparison of population between the Colonies and the Dominions?
    Mr. Wilson: We shall certainly do anything we can to help the Colonies. I think that many of their difficulties arise from the fact that they are unable to buy newsprint for which dollars have been allocated in the dollar area.
    Mr. Harrison: When considering the allocation of newsprint to the Colonies, will my right hon. Friend also take into account the fact that the newspapers in Malaya are considerably bigger than the newspapers in this country?
    Mr. Marloweasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will convene a conference of representatives from the Dominions and the United States of America to investigate and consider the best means of ensuring an equitable distribution of newsprint so as to ensure a minimum of an eight page daily newspaper in this country.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have had this idea in mind for some time, but should prefer to consider it when the supply position for next year is somewhat clearer.
    Mr. Marlowe: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the mistake he has always made in the past has been in not looking far enough ahead? Is not he aware that his action in causing the cancellation of the Canadian contract drove the newsprint into the American market; and, having got the newspapers into this mess, has he not some responsibility to get them out of it?
    Mr. Wilson: Three, if not four, times this year we have extended our arrange-

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    ment with Canada still further ahead at the request of the Newsprint Supply Company. On each occasion they said that if we would do that it would solve the problem.

    Forest of Dean
    Mr. M. Philips Priceasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of that part of the Coal Board's National Development Plan relating to the Forest of Dean coalfield, envisaging the virtual exhaustion of the coal within the next 15 years and a gradual decline up to then, he will consider further measures to attract other industries to this area, so as to avoid serious unemployment or the uprooting of a part of the industrial population.
    Mr. H. Wilson: It would be premature for me to make any statement on this subject until the proposals contained in the National Coal Board's "Plan for Coal" have been considered by the industry's National Consultative Council and the Consumers' Councils and presented to my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Fuel and Power, for his approval. But as I informed my hon. Friend in reply to his Question on 22nd June, he can rest assured that we are keeping the industrial trends in this area, and other areas likely to be affected, under constant review.

    Utility Clothing (Profit Margins
    Mr. Pannellasked the President of the Board of Trade whether after inquiry by his officers at the premises of a firm in Leeds, referred to him by the hon. Member for Leeds, West, he is satisfied that the margins allowed to the trade for outwear utility garments are such that the consumers' interest is being protected whilst maintaining trade union wages and conditions and fair trading profits in the industry.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Pannell: Can my right hon. Friend say how often his Department revises the utility price margins?
    Mr. Wilson: We are conducting continuous examination into the actual costs of production and margins of profit on practically every item covered by price control under the utility scheme.

    Raw Cotton Imports
    Mrs. Hillasked the President of the Board of Trade what action is being taken to improve the supply of raw cotton to the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Fortasked the President of the Board of Trade why the United Kingdom has received a smaller allocation of the current United States crop of raw cotton than Japan or Germany and a relatively smaller allocation than Italy.
    Mr. Asshetonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of inadequate allocations from the United States of America, he is satisfied that the existing stocks of raw cotton are sufficient both in quantity and quality to maintain cotton textile production at the highest level compatible with existing machinery and labour.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am not satisfied that an adequate share of the United States' cotton crop has so far been made available to us. Representations are now being made to the United States Government in Washington, and I am sure that the House will not expect me to make any further comment now.
    Mr. Assheton: Can the right hon. Gentleman say in what growths the most serious deficiencies exist, and can he say whether the cotton trade is getting clear information of the details so that they can plan accordingly? Is he aware that full employment in the cotton trade depends entirely on an adequate supply of raw materials?
    Mr. Wilson: I am certainly well aware of the last point. The Raw Cotton Commission have given guidance to the Lancashire mills, but since it was only at the end of last week that we had the detailed allocation of the second batch of exports from the United States, it is too early yet to be able to assess its effect.
    Mr. Fort: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that buying by competent private enterprise would get us a larger allocation for the Lancashire industry than we get under this Government to Government allocation?
    Mr. Wilson: Since this particular cotton is sold by private enterprise, and since the whole difficulty relates to the question of the export licences issued by the United States Government, the

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    method of purchasing in this country has absolutely nothing to do with the matter.

    Defence Orders (Raw Materials)
    Mr. W. Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to ensure that factories engaged on vital work in connection with the defence programme are not hampered owing to the lack of adequate raw materials.
    Mr. H. Wilson: While no case has been brought to my notice where defence orders have been hampered by a shortage of raw materials for which the Board of Trade is responsible, I am aware that difficulties are already arising in the supply of certain raw materials. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated during the debate on the Address on 2nd November, we have taken up these difficulties as a matter of urgency with the countries concerned. If shortages develop, special allocation arrangements will be introduced as necessary in order to see that priority users have the first call on available supplies. I hope that a fuller statement will be made shortly.
    Mr. Fletcher: In view of the very great importance of this question, which might hold up the whole rearmament programme, has the Minister consulted the various trade associations, who are only too willing to assist in seeing that raw material flows into the country through the channels that are desirable?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir; I agree that there is no item of greater importance at present in our production situation, and my Department and other Departments are maintaining close contacts with the trade associations, both in regard to supplies and meeting the needs of essential users.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Is the Minister aware of the rapidly increasing anxiety on this subject in the engineering industries of Birmingham and the Midlands? The brass foundries, for example, fear that they may only be able to reach 50 per cent. of their capacity owing to shortage of metal?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I am aware of that, and it was that to which I was referring in my answer.
    Mr. Drayson: While the shortage of materials exists in the textile industry, will the Minister pay particular attention to the export of cotton waste from this country?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I am at the moment going into the question of cotton waste, cotton yarn and rayon materials.

    Hotel Accommodation, London
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps have been taken during the past 12 months to deal with the increasing difficulty of obtaining hotel accommodation in the London area; and what action he proposes to take during the next few months to increase the accommodation available in order to deal with the large influx of visitors who are being encouraged to come to London in 1951 for the Festival of Britain.
    Mr. H. Wilson: As the answer is necessarily long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Dodds: If charges for accommodation become exorbitant during the Festival of Britain can action be taken? If so, will it be taken?
    Mr. Wilson: No consideration has been given to that particular question, because the urgent one is to ensure that sufficient accommodation is made available to meet the needs of those who want to come, I have asked the British Hotels and Restaurants Association to reserve a large proportion of their rooms for overseas visitors, particularly for those who spend dollars.
    Commander Noble: Can the Minister say whether the action he is taking includes restraining his right hon. Friends from requisitioning hotels?
    Mr. Wilson: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look into this, he will find that we have de-requisitioned by far the greatest proportion of those that were requisitioned. Further, we have just come to an arrangement to de-requisition a further four, which the hotels industry is not willing to take over.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Can my right hon. Friend ensure that Members of Parliament necessarily occupying hotels while they are on the business of the House, will not be thrown out?
    Mr. Wilson: I shall require notice of that question.
    Miss Florence Horsbrugh: In stating that the hotel industry is not willing to take on these premises, has the right hon. Gentleman considered that, under the terms of the Catering Wages Act, it is not possible for the industry to render the service it would like to render?
    Following is the answer:
    My colleagues and I have for some time past been giving close attention to the problems created by the shortage of hotel accommodation in London, and to the serious consquences which this situation was likely to have, not only upon the success of the Festival of Britain, but also upon the development of our tourist trade. While we have been principally concerned to ensure satisfactory arrangements for the reception of visitors from overseas, we have also taken account of the large numbers of our own people who will be attracted by the Festival. It has been impracticable to arrive at any accurate estimate of the size of the problem, but work has gone ahead on the basis that as much additional accommodation as possible should be provided.
    The first new hotel to be built in London since the war should be open in good time for the Festival. The bulk of hotel building licensed in London consists, however, of projects of extension, modernisation and reconstruction. Since the beginning of the year, building licences have been granted which will result in an additional 1,300 bedrooms becoming available in time for the opening of the Festival and a further 170 a month or two later.
    The British Hotels and Restaurants Association have at my request urged their London members to reserve a high proportion of their rooms for overseas visitors, with priority for tourists from dollar countries. I hope very much that all London hotels will follow this lead, and I would urge all hotel keepers willingly to accept advance bookings from overseas visitors, whether made directly or through travel agents.
    During this year's tourist season, a highly successful experiment was conducted in the inauguration of the London Hotels Information Service, operated by the British Hotels and Restaurants Association, in conjunction with the British Travel and Holidays Association.
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    The Service does not make bookings, but informs overseas visitors and travel agents acting for them of hotels with vacant rooms. Since it was started last June the Service has arranged some 35,000 nights' accommodation. The Service will continue in an extended form during 1951. Efforts are also being made to ease the pressure on hotel accommodation in central London by encouraging visitors to make greater use of hotels on the outskirts, and in towns within easy reach of London. Moreover, under the Hotel Grants Scheme, which I announced on 6th July, in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling), we are providing a financial incentive to hotels to cater for United States and Canadian visitors during 1951.
    Even although a considerable amount of building work has been authorised and we have done our utmost to see that London hotel accommodation is used to the best advantage, it may not be possible to accommodate everyone in hotels. There is, however, a large and untapped reserve of sleeping accommodation for tourists in private houses. Early this year the British Travel and Holidays Association launched a scheme for inspecting and registering all offers of such accommodation. So far, 3,350 households, providing more than 7,000 beds, have been registered. A special inquiry office will direct overseas visitors who are unable to obtain hotel rooms w this accommodation.
    Special attention has been given to providing moderately priced accommodation for organised parties of young people and schoolchildren, many of whom have been in the habit of staying at the Clapham deep shelter. This shelter, which has a capacity of 4,000, will he reopened for the Festival period under the management of the London County Council, to whom we are greatly indebted for their ready co-operation. The Clapham shelter necessarily provides only simple accommodation and is intended for those who stay not more than a night or two. For those who wish to stay longer, we are arranging a tented camp at Chigwell which will provide inexpensive accommodation for 2,000 visitors. We hope that there will also be a smaller camp with provision for about 1,000 visitors. These camps, which are intended primarily for overseas visitors, will be run by voluntary

    1307
    youth organisations, with equipment provided from Government stocks. Another site is provisionally earmarked for caravans and independent campers with space for about 500 people. Full details of these arrangements will be announced as soon as possible.

    Restrictive Practices
    Mrs. Jean Mannasked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the report of the productivity team of industrial accountants and managers who recently visited the United States of America; and if he will set up an independent commission to investigate the extent of price agreements, quotas and restrictive practices in Britain, as recommended in the report.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have seen this report, but see no advantage in duplicating the work of the existing Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission by setting up another Commission to cover the same ground.
    Mrs. Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is likely to be two years before the Commission issue their recommendations, and does he approve of the British people being cheated for the next two years into believing that there is such as thing as free, competitive private enterprise in Britain?
    Mr. Wilson: It will not be two years before we have the first report from the Monopolies Commission, because one is being published in a few days' time, and another should be available in January. I hope, shortly after that, to make a statement on the arrangements in hand to speed up the work of the Monopolies Commission.

    PASSENGER EXAMINATION (LONDON AIRPORT)
    Mr. John Fosterasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why M. Paul Loyonnet, who came to the United Kingdom on behalf of the French Government to play at a private concert at the French Institute in Edinburgh and London, was cross-examined as to whether he was going to earn money in England at such length, by the immigration officials at Heathrow on Tuesday,
    1308
    7th November, 1950, that he missed his train to Scotland; and whether the officials concerned will be instructed, in similar cases, to telephone the French Embassy for confirmation instead of conducting a long drawn-out examination.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): M. Loyonnet and the other passengers accompanying him could not be dealt with as quickly as is usual at the London Airport because their aircraft was 40 minutes late and arrived at a time when the staff were heavily engaged in dealing with other arrivals; and M. Loyonnet himself was further delayed because after his examination had begun he had to go to the Customs shed to get certain papers from his baggage and so lost his place in the queue. I am satisfied that the immigration officer did not question M. Loyonnet at undue length, and that no time would have been saved by consulting the French Embassy.
    Mr. Foster: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large part of the delay was due to the cross-examination by the immigration official? Was not this a very churlish welcome to somebody who comes over here to give a concert at the request of the French Government?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir; I do not think that the facts as reported to me bear out what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, but I am always sorry when, owing to a chapter of accidents such as has occurred in this case, delay and inconvenience occur to visitors.

  CIVIL DEFENCE

    Recruitment
    Brigadier Prior-Palmerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what arrangements have been made for showing Civil Defence exhibitions for the purpose of encouraging recruitment to the Civil Defence and allied services; and whether hon. Members will have an opportunity of inspecting one.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas): Six Civil Defence touring exhibitions have been prepared for use by local authorities: three of these were recently put on tour and the remainder will be sent out very shortly. I have

    1309
    already written to those hon. Members in whose constituencies they will be shown. It is not practicable to display one of these exhibitions here, but a smaller Civil Defence exhibition will be on view in the Library from 4th–16th December, and I hope that all hon. Members will take the opportunity of seeing it.
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Will the hon. Gentleman, in these exhibitions, incorporate some indication of the way in which the Women's Voluntary Services can play a part in assisting Civil Defence, in accordance with the posters which his Department itself has issued?
    Mr. de Freitas: I will make a note of that.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: Will my hon. Friend ask all local authorities to see that these exhibitions are properly advertised?
    Mr. de Freitas: I will bear that in mind.

    Mobile Column
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now prepared to approve an establishment for a Civil Defence mobile column; and to authorise the recruitment of at least one such column on a full-time paid basis.
    Mr. de Freitas: Arrangements are being made to form an experimental column of part-time volunteers ready to give full-time service in the event of war. Pending the experience to be gained from this it would be premature to recruit a column on a full-time basis.
    Mr. Harvey: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the very great importance of this innovation in Civil Defence and the extreme value of the prototype in constructing Civil Defence in the future, and will he encourage every step being taken to get support for this particular method of activity?
    Mr. de Freitas: Yes, Sir. We regard this mobile column as very important.
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Does the hon. Gentleman realise the importance of earmarking vehicles well in advance to transport these columns?
    Mr. de Freitas: I will see that the point is not overlooked.
    Mr. Watkinson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the event of an atomic attack all the local Civil Defence personnel would probably be out of action, and that these mobile columns may well be the only means of dealing with the situation? Could not some further steps be taken beyond this one experimental column?
    Mr. de Freitas: We recognise the importance of these columns in case of any form of heavy air attack, and that is why we are going ahead with this experimental one to see what lessons can be learned from its organisation.

    Pamphlet
    Mr. Harmar Nichollsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to prevent an organisation named Peace Pledge Union from hindering recruitment for Civil Defence and undermining the morale of those who have already been recruited in Civil Defence by circulating a defeatist pamphlet entitled, "Civil Defence: What You Should Do Now."
    Mr. Ede: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Mr. Russell), on 23rd November.
    Mr. Nicholls: Is the Minister aware that this pamphlet contains subversive statements alleging that deep shelters will only be available for the Government and advising members of the Civil Defence organisation to leave the country or to make sure that they will not support the Government? In view of these statements, could not a special Act be introduced, such as the one which deals with people subverting the Armed Forces?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir. For one thing, I think that the hon. Gentleman is exaggerating the influence of this pamphlet, and I am not anxious to take unnecessary powers to restrict freedom of expression, no matter how foolish.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is this the pamphlet to which the Minister referred as subversive in his statement in the "News Chronicle"? Has the right hon. Gentleman read the pamphlet, and is he prepared to put this alleged subversive pamphlet in the Library, so that Members can judge for themselves?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir, I have not alluded to this pamphlet as subversive, but I have read it and I gather from the Questions I have been asked that a large number of hon. Members have read it, and that it has had no effect on their patriotism.

    FOOTBALL POOLS
    Mr. Nallyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he is aware that, despite falling revenues, football pool winnings in excess of £100,000 have recently been paid and publicised by the organisations concerned; and if, in view of these facts, he will request the Royal Commission now examining this and other forms of betting, to consider issuing an interim report as to the methods of football pool accountancy and declaration of winnings upon which they have already received considerable evidence;
    (2) if he is aware of the public disquiet as to the lack of information as to the accounts of the football pool industry; and if, pending the report of the Royal Commission now sitting, he will consider legislation designed to make full weekly publication of accounts obligatory upon all football organisations.
    Mr. Ede: As the Royal Commission is expected to report fairly early in the New Year, I do not think I would be justified in asking them at this late stage of their proceedings to consider issuing an interim report on this matter. I will, however, bring my hon. Friend's Questions to their notice. The House will be aware that a Private Member's Motion for leave to introduce a Bill to make compulsory the regular publication of accounts and information by persons promoting football pool betting was carried without a Division by the House last Tuesday.
    Mr. Nally: May we assume from what my right hon. Friend has said that it is his intention to give every possible support to the Private Member's Bill relating to this question, which is shortly to come before the House?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir. I have not seen the Bill yet, and I never support any Bill until I have seen it.
    Mr. Marlowe: Does not the fact that a Bill is to be brought in, after being
    1312
    introduced under the Ten Minutes' Rule, show how completely wrong the Lord President was in resisting the demand for the restoration of Private Members' time?

    INJURED PRISONERS (COMPENSATION)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what provision is made for a man who sustains, while serving a prison sentence, an injury which prevents him permanently from following any employment after his discharge.
    Mr. Ede: The National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Acts do not apply to injuries sustained in prison employment, but it is the practice of my Department to make an ex-gratia payment equivalent to the award which would have been made under the Acts if they had been applicable. Cases of non-industrial injury differ so widely in their nature and effects that each case has to be treated on its merits: compensation is sometimes given by way of special remission of sentence, though the possibility of an ex-gratia payment in an appropriate case is not excluded, and the injured prisoner also has his remedies at law. There is no record of a prisoner having sustained during his sentence an injury resulting in total and permanent disablement.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that I have a case of a man who was injured while working in prison, who, after being discharged, developed tuberculosis of the spine as the result of the injury? Is it not possible for this man to be dealt with under the Industrial Injuries Act, since he sustained the injury while following his employment?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir. It is not possible to put a man under the Industrial Injuries Act, because there is no contract of employment between the Prison Commissioners and the prisoner, but if my hon. Friend will see me privately I will be very pleased to discuss with him any case where hardship appears to have been inflicted.

    HACKNEY CARRIAGES
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to receive the report from

    1313
    the working party appointed to look into the law and practices in connection with the use of hackney carriages; and how many meetings to date this committee have held.
    Mr. Ede: I understand that the working party hope to be able to report on all the matters referred to them about next March. Twenty-three meetings have been held so far.

    LICENSING LAWS, WALES
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many resolutions his Department has received during the last 12 months asking that no change be made in the present licensing laws as they affect Sunday closing in Wales.
    Mr. Ede: Sixty-nine, Sir.

  AGRICULTURE

    Livestock (Statistics)
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Minister of Agriculture what were the numbers of cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry when his expansion programme was started in 1947; and what they are now.
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): As the answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Reid: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there has been a very great increase in the number of livestock since that date?
    Mr. Williams: Yes, Sir, there has been a very large increase in each case.
    Mr. Baldwin: In view of the heavy stock losses during the winter of 1946–47, could the right hon. Gentleman include a comparison with 1946 as well as a comparison with 1947, which gives rather an exaggerated view of the increase since that date?
    Mr. Williams: That only applies to sheep. The 1947 figures we have given are for before that disaster.
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    Following is the statement:

    NUMBERS OF CATTLE, SHEEP, PIGS AND POULTRY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AT SEPTEMBER IN THE YEARS 1947 AND 1950 (a)

    September 1947 (000

    September 1950 (provisional) (000)

    Cattle (including calves)

    9,650

    10,501

    Sheep (including lambs (b)

    15,795

    18,518

    Pigs

    1,761

    3,326

    Poultry (c)

    45,511

    62,114

    (a) Numbers returned as on agricultural holdings exceeding one acre in Great Britain and of 1¼ acre or more in Northern Ireland.

    (b) The corresponding figure in September, 1946, before the losses due to blizzards in February and March, 1947, was nearly 19 millions.

    (c) Great Britain only: poultry figures are not collected in Northern Ireland in September. On a United Kingdom basis there was an increase from 70,006,000 in June, 1947, to 95,986,000 in June, 1950. The increase has consisted almost wholly of fowls.

    Tomatoes and Cucumbers (Marketing Board)
    Mr. Goochasked the Minister of Agriculture what workers' representation he proposes to give on the provisional tomato and cucumber marketing board; and if he will indicate the number of seats which will be allotted to the workers on the permanent board.
    Mr. T. Williams: Invitations from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself to serve as members of the Tomato and Cucumber Marketing Board have been accepted by Mrs. E. A. Wills, Mr. Howard Cunningham, and Mr. R. L. Latimer and Mr. W. J. Shingfield. Their function will not be to represent any particular section of the community, but rather to leaven the specialised knowledge of the producer members with experience gained in other capacities.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Would the Minister say which of the four persons nominated represent Scottish interests?
    Mr. Williams: Mr. Howard Cunningham is managing director of Scottish Agricultural Industries and he is also a director of the Commercial Bank of Scotland.
    Mr. Gooch: Would not the Minister give further consideration to the suggestion made to him several times that he should give worker and consumer representation on this Board?
    Mr. Williams: If the hon. Member will take note of the names I have mentioned he will find that Mrs. E. A. Wills, a Member of this House from 1945 to 1950, is a director of the Co-operative Society, and that the last named, W. J. Shingfield, is a retired organiser of a workers' union.

    Farm Workers, Scotland (Wages)
    Mr. Goochasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board has rejected an application by the workers for an increase in the agricultural minimum wage in Scotland; and if he will now make a statement on the effect this will have upon any adjustment of price next February to meet the increased costs of production due to the wage increase in England and Wales.
    Mr. T. Williams: The answer to the first part is "Yes, Sir." To the second part, I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Bilston (Mr. Nally) on 16th November.
    Mr. Gooch: Does not the Minister agree that it would be eminently unfair to include Scotland in any price review seeing that they have no increased costs in the form of increased wages? Is he not of the opinion that the members of the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board should fall into line with their more enlightened colleagues across the Border and give the Scottish farm workers what they are entitled to?
    Mr. Williams: I am sure my hon. Friend would not expect me to answer the last part of his Question.
    Mrs. Mann: If Scottish farmers have no increased wages to meet, can my right hon. Friend explain why Brussels sprouts are 9d. in Glasgow and only 5d. in London?
    Mr. Williams: That is one of the peculiarities of Scotland.

    Fowl Pest, Norfolk
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture what further outbreaks of fowl pest have occurred in Norfolk; and the number of poultry involved.
    Mr. T. Williams: There has been one further outbreak in Norfolk during the
    1316
    past week. There were 228 birds on the premises where the disease occurred, and all were slaughtered.
    Mr. Dye: In view of the incidence of this disease and its disastrous nature should not there be a further inquiry into the best method of preventing its spread, in view of the enormous increase in poultry in the country?
    Mr. Williams: I can assure my hon. Friend that research is going on all the time in order to find a cure for, and also the prevention of, this disease.
    Mr. Dye: Has it not something to do with marketing?
    Mr. Williams: My hon. Friend must know that during the whole of this year and last we have exercised control over the movement of poultry as between area and area, county and county, and as between England and Scotland, too.
    Captain Duncan: Can the Minister say what is the reason for this latest outbreak and whether his right hon. Friend the Minister of Food is the nigger in the woodpile?
    Mr. Williams: I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I did not convey the pest. It is just possible that the owner himself, who is a smallholder and who is also employed on the premises of a poulterer, who makes purchases over a wide area, conveyed the disease from where he works to his own smallholding.
    Major Sir Thomas Dugdale: Have there been any further outbreaks in the country during the past week?
    Mr. Williams: I could not say without notice.

  FORESTRY

    Wales
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture what are the publicity methods of the Forestry Commission in Wales to inform the public of the need of afforestation, and where, and how, this is to be carried out.
    Mr. T. Williams: Publicity on forestry in Wales has consisted of statements to the Press and B.B.C., visits by the Press to forest operations at the invitation of

    1317
    the Forestry Commission, publication of booklets and pamphlets (in both English and Welsh), addresses and talks to official and voluntary organisations concerned with Welsh affairs, and the staging of exhibits at agricultural shows in Wales.
    Mr. Watkins: In view of the widespread protest in Wales about the action of the Ministry of Agriculture with regard to afforestation, would not the Minister agree that it would be better if he asked one of his officers in Wales to deal with public relations only?
    Mr. Williams: So many meetings have been held in various parts of Wales, particularly in connection with forestry, that I do not think the sending of a publicity officer to Wales would have the desired effect.

    Fairwarp
    Colonel Clarkeasked the Minister of Agriculture what plans the Forestry Commission have for starting a forest area at Fairwarp, on the south-east edge of Ashdown Forest.
    Mr. T. Williams: Plans for the acquisition of some 900 acres are well advanced, and further areas are under consideration.

    RIVER BOARDS
    Miss Irene Wardasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will detail the river boards established under the 1948 River Boards Act.
    Mr. T. Williams: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 27th July last to my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Slater), which detailed the 17 river boards which have been constituted. During January and February it is hoped to hold first meetings of eight further boards which will take over their functions on 1st April, 1951.
    Miss Ward: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the total number of River Boards it is possible to establish?
    Mr. Williams: I think it may be 31.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Could we have an assurance from the Minister that two of the boards being set up in January or February will be separate boards for the Nene and the Welland rivers?
    Mr. Williams: I could not give the hon. and gallant Member the assurance for which he asks, and he knows perfectly well why.
    Mr. David Renton: Is the Minister aware that the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Bill is meaningless until we know what angling representatives there will be on the river boards? Will Ito therefore see that the information is given to us before the Committee stage is reached?
    Mr. Williams: No, Sir, I take the view that the river boards are fully representative, and that the anglers' associations are very satisfied with the results of the appointments so far.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Pensioners' Tobacco Tokens
    Mr. Profumoasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the case of Mr. H. A. Pendrey, 49, Henley Street, Stratford-on-Avon, who suffered the financial loss of £5 7s. 6d. because of the theft of his wallet, which contained his pensioner's tobacco tokens; and, in view of the serious financial hardship which is caused in cases such as this, whether he is prepared to consider amending the present regulations with regard to tobacco tokens issued to pensioners, so that they can be replaced in such circumstances.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): The hon. Member has written to my right hon. Friend about this case, and I appreciate that the loss of the token may be a serious misfortune to Mr. Pendrey; but I fear that, as has been explained on several previous occasions, token books lost by accident or theft must be regarded in the same light as currency notes and postage stamps, and cannot be replaced.
    Mr. Profumo: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in view of the constantly rising cost of living, these tobacco tokens are really a godsend to pensioners? Cannot he devise a scheme whereby they are linked by number or name to the identity cards of pensioners, so that they can be cancelled if they are lost and new ones issued?
    Mr. Jay: The hon. Member no doubt realises that, at the end of a period, a pensioner can get a new token.
    Mr. Frank McLeavy: Will the hon. Gentleman go into the question of whether it is possible to issue these tokens more frequently than once a year, so that if an old age pensioner lost or burned his coupons, he would not have to wait a considerable time for their renewal?
    Mr. Jay: I will certainly consider that.

    War Damage Claims
    Mr. Vosperasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the economic conditions that are necessary to enable him to implement Section 85 (1) of the War Damage Act. 1945, and to repay the £41 million outstanding.
    Mr. Jay: I can give no undertaking on this subject at the present moment.
    Mr. Vosper: As this is in the nature of a debt to the people of this country, has the hon. Gentleman ever considered the possibility of refunding this money in some form of loan?
    Mr. Jay: I do not think that has been considered, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that some payments are already being made in special cases.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in how many cases the War Damage Commission have refused to treat as notification of war damage notification given other than on the prescribed forms; and in how many cases have war damage claims been rejected on this sole ground.
    Mr. Jay: I regret that the information asked for in the first part of the Question is not available; as regards the second part, the War Damage Commission inform me that no cases have been rejected on the sole ground mentioned.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In that case, will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to ask them to reconsider the case, about which he wrote to me on 22nd November, where, according to him, they did reject it on that ground?
    Mr. Jay: I will certainly look into that case, but I am assured by the War Damage Commission that no case has been rejected solely on that ground.

    Fuel Saving Devices (Tax)
    Captain Ryderasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the need to economise in fuel, he will reduce
    1320
    the Purchase Tax on gas water heaters and other fuel saving devices.
    Mr. Jay: I will bear the hon. and gallant Member's suggestion in mind.
    Captain Ryder: Would it not be better to carry this out now, before the approach of winter weather?
    Mr. Keeling: Has the Minister received any representations on this matter from the Ministry of Fuel and Power, who appealed, I think a few days ago, for better and more economical combustion?
    Mr. Jay: We have frequently discussed the matter with the Ministry of Fuel and Power; indeed, it is in consultation with them that the various rates in force have been adopted.
    Mr. Erroll: Has the Minister considered grading the tax according to the amount and type of fuel consumed, whether solid or otherwise, rather than by the prime cost of the appliance?
    Mr. Jay: The hon. Member will remember that, basically, the present rates were adopted in 1947 mainly to encourage more fuel saving.

    Retirement Pensions
    Mr. Lowasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds the Inland Revenue refuse to grant allowance for wife's earned income relief in the case of a married woman over the age of 60 in receipt of 26s. a week retirement allowance and in respect of previous insurance contributions.
    Mr. Jay: Retirement pensions under the National Insurance Act were made ineligible for wife's earned income relief by Section 27 (2) of the Finance Act, 1946.
    Mr. Low: Does the hon. Gentleman think that is altogether a fair decision, after he has had experience of it?
    Mr. Jay: The hon. Member will remember that the special concession was given to encourage married women to go out to work in appropriate cases. That argument, of course, obviously does not apply in the case of retirement pensions.

    Blocked Sterling Balances
    Mr. Russellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he has taken

    1321
    to inform British residents living in foreign countries that they can draw on their blocked funds for essential expenditure in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Jay: The principle is that exceptions to the blocking of capital are allowed in cases of hardship, that is, where the expenditure is essential and funds cannot be remitted from abroad. No special steps have been taken to publicise this arrangement, but anyone who feels that he is suffering hardship would normally consult his United Kingdom banker or broker who will be familiar with the procedure.
    Mr. Russell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that British residents in Belgium did not know they could use blocked sterling funds for certain purposes until I forwarded an answer the hon. Gentleman gave me a few weeks ago? Does he not think that some method of publicising this should be adopted?
    Mr. Jay: I will consider that, but one would have expected that anyone in that position would have consulted his banker.
    Mr. Russellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what purposes foreign citizens who hold blocked sterling funds in the United Kingdom are allowed to draw on them.
    Mr. Jay: Normally, only for reinvestment in quoted sterling securities not maturing under 10 years from the date of purchase. In exceptional cases sympathetic consideration is given for the release of small amounts on grounds of hardship.
    Mr. Russell: Would the hon. Gentleman consider allowing foreign residents who wish to have their children educated here to draw on those funds? Does he not consider that a good way of earning foreign exchange?
    Mr. Jay: That is one of the arguments taken into account.
    Mr. Drayson: Will the hon. Gentleman consider extending these regulations to include the investment of those funds in private firms, and not necessarily in firms whose securities are quoted, as this would have the effect of increasing production?

    Non-Utility Footwear (Tax)
    Mr. Hugh Fraserasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the increased price of raw materials doubly reflected in proportional increases in Purchase Tax have forced, and are forcing, high quality shoemakers to shut up shop; and whether, with a view to preserving craftsmanship in this trade, he will consider the abolition of a tax which affects less than 1 per cent. of the whole trade's output.
    Mr. Jay: My right hon. Friend has received various representations about the effect of Purchase Tax on sales of high-class non-utility goods, including footwear, and will consider these in the next review of the tax.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is precisely in this class of footwear that we have the biggest chance of securing a market in the United States of America?
    Mr. Jay

    Local Authorities Staffs (Salaries)
    Mrs. Braddockasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the official announcement made on 10th August, 1950, regarding the putting into operation, gradually, of the recommendations of the Chorley Committee, how far the principles laid down in the White Paper, Command No. 7321, are now relaxed.
    Mr. Jay: I would refer my hon. Friend to the remarks of my right hon. Friend on this subject in his speech on 2nd November in the debate on the Address.
    Mrs. Braddock: Is my hon. Friend aware that the recommendation of the Association of Municipal Corporations to pay very high increases in salary to chief officers, and others, in local government, is having a very bad effect upon lower-paid workers who have been refused increases? Can he do anything to see that the local authorities are notified that increases up to £1,000 a year are very bad indeed, and will have a serious effect upon the nation generally?
    Mr. Jay: I am aware of those proposals, but they are really a different subject from the Chorley Committee recommendations.
    Mrs. Braddock: In view of the serious implications of this Question, I give notice that I shall raise the matter, as soon as possible, on the Adjournment.

    INDUSTRIAL CIVIL SERVANTS (LEAVE)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has now considered the application by industrial civil servants for 12 days annual leave with pay; and with what result.
    Mr. Jay: The trade union side of the Joint Co-ordinating Committee for Government Industrial Establishments, have asked to see my right hon. Friend about this matter before a decision is taken. He has, therefore, made arrangements to meet them, very soon, for this purpose.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is my hon. Friend aware that this matter went before the Joint Co-ordinating Committee on 27th July last, and can he explain why there has been this exceptional delay in arriving at a decision?
    Mr. Jay: Mainly because the trade union side were anxious to discuss it personally with the previous Chancellor, and he was away at the time, of course.

    PRISON STAFF, LEEDS (TESTS)
    Mr. Pannellasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applicants there have been during the past two years, stated separately, for the post of established prison officers at His Majesty's Prison at Armley, Leeds how many have been rejected after a probationary period without any reason being given; and whether he is satisfied that the tests applied to these men are suitable, bearing in mind the duties they would be called upon to perform.
    Mr. Ede: I am afraid this answer is rather long. During the year ended 31st October, 1949, 120 applicants for the post of prison officer attended at H.M. Prison, Leeds, for a first interview. Forty-two
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    eventually joined for preliminary training, of whom 11 resigned and seven were discharged as unsuitable to attend the training school at Wakefield. Of the 24 who attended at Wakefield, seven failed to qualify and the remaining 17 have become established officers. During the year ended 31st October, 1950, 321 applicants had a first interview. Forty-two joined for preliminary training, of whom four resigned, 13 have been discharged as unsuitable for the training school and 17 are still undergoing preliminary training. Of the eight who attended at Wakefield, one failed to qualify and seven have become established officers.
    An unsuccessful candidate is given no reason for being discharged other than that he is not thought suitable for the specialised work of a prison officer, and I do not think any useful purpose would be served by altering this practice. I am satisfied that the tests used are suitable and that they are properly applied.
    Mr. Pannell: Does not my right hon. Friend think, on reflection, that this is a most unsatisfactory position? Is he aware that even since I put down this Question I have received further evidence of the dissatisfaction of ex-Service men and women of good non-commissioned officer type who have been rejected after only five minutes' interview?
    Mr. Ede: I am willing to consider any case which my hon. Friend likes to bring to my notice, but I am satisfied that if we are to get men and women of the right calibre for this service we must set a high standard.
    Mr. Pannell: Is my right hon. Friend sure that it is the right standard?
    Mr. Ede: I am quite sure that it is the best that has been invented yet.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Could the Lord President tell us the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 4TH DECEMBER—Completion of the Committee stage of the Festival of Britain (Sunday Opening) Bill.
Committee and remaining stages of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Bill.

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Committee stage of the Administration of Justice (Pensions) Bill.
Motion to refer the Alkali, etc., Works Regulation (Scotland) Bill to Scottish Standing Committee for Second Reading under Standing Order No. 60.
Motion to commit the Local Government (Scotland) Bill to the Scottish Standing Committee under Standing Order No. 60; and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 5TH DECEMBER—Debate on Welsh Affairs on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
WEDNESDAY, 6TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Leasehold Property (Temporary Provisions) Bill.
THURSDAY, 7TH DECEMBER—Remaining stages of the Festival of Britain (Sunday Opening) Bill.
Remaining stages of the Administration of Justice (Pensions) Bill.
Second Reading of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Bill; and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
FRIDAY, 8TH DECEMBER—Consideration of Private Members' Motions.
During the week it is hoped to consider the Motions to approve the Double Taxation Relief Orders relating to Ceylon, Sarawak and Brunei.
Mr. Eden: The inclusion of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Bill is rather unexpected, although it was referred to in the King's Speech. I gather that it is a Bill on which many Scottish Members on both sides of the House will wish to speak, and I do not know how long the other items which precede it will last. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider making this Bill the first Order on that day, or alternatively would he tell us that it will not be taken, say, after six o'clock, because it seems rather wrong to take the Second Reading of one of the few King's Speech items so late on a given day?
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman has raised a perfectly fair point. It is possible that we may have to suspend the Rule on that day, but I agree with what he is driving at. My hope is that the
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first two items will not take long, and if that should be so, I think we should take the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Bill, which has certain elements of urgency about it in relation to something or another that happens in this business in the new year. The other two Orders are urgent. I think the best way to leave it is to see how we get on, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we shall be adaptable if things should not go in such a way as to make this arrangement a good proposition.
Mr. Eden: It seems satisfactory so far as I can follow the convolutions of the right hon. Gentleman. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman another question? Could he tell us the proposed dates of the Christmas Recess?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. If the necessary business can be completed, we hope that it will be possible to adjourn for the Christmas Recess on Friday, 15th December, and meet again on Tuesday, 23rd January next.
Mr. Eden: That is a week earlier. I am not complaining; I am just recording the fact. There are two other Questions I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman. I think he knows that there are two debates which we are most anxious to have before we rise; I think the House as a whole would wish to have them. One is on defence; we feel that we should have that before we adjourn. We should probably ask for that to be in secret, though, of course, that will be a matter for decision by the House. The other debate is on coal which I think ought to be discussed before the House adjourns. We should like to be assured that time can be found for those two debates in one of the weeks before 15th December.
Mr. Morrison: We have had two defence debates this year and there is the foreign affairs debate this week, and they have some relationship. I think the best way to leave this matter would be to discuss it through the usual channels and we shall see what we can do.
Mr. Rhys Davies: Can my right hon. Friend inform those of us who represent English constituencies what form the debate on Welsh affairs will take on Tuesday?
Mr. Morrison: The debate will be on the Adjournment. Is gather that the understanding with Welsh members is that it will be in relation to industrial affairs and employment.
Mr. Emrys Roberts: Could the right hon. Gentleman consider putting down a Motion for Tuesday similar to the Motions put down in previous years, as a debate on the Adjournment unduly restricts the scope of debate?
Mr. Morrison: On the sphere of debate which is intended, and which I hope has been settled after consultation with representative Welsh members, I think that on this occasion the Motion for the Adjournment will be adequate.
Mr. A. Edward Davies: Will an opportunity be provided soon to consider the Colombo plan to which reference was made the other day? May I also ask whether we shall have an opportunity to consider the annual report of the British Broadcasting Corporation for last year, which has been out some time?
Mr. Morrison: On the first point, we are now debating international affairs, and presumably that subject could be mentioned. As to the other point, I doubt whether we can find time to discuss the annual report of the B.B.C. at the moment. It is one of those which come within the category of possible debates of public corporations. As my hon. Friend knows, there will shortly be published, I think, the report of the Beveridge Committee of Inquiry into the B.B.C., and my impression is—I do not know what is going to be in it—that my hon. Friend will find that it may be rather more exciting than the annual report of the B.B.C.
Mr. Peter Roberts: Will the right hon. Gentleman give time to discuss a Motion, standing in my name and in the names of my hon. Friends, on the Steel Corporation, in view of the alarming reports which are circulating about the unpreparedness of this Corporation to take over its responsibilities in 11 weeks' time?
[That this House takes note of the circulars issued by the Ministry of Labour to attract highly paid employees to the new Steel Corporation containing the statements to the effect that there is little definite information available as
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to the character of the organisation to be set up, and that it is understood that this Corporation is to be a kind of controlling office in London, and condemns the Government for nationalising at this particularly critical time the iron and steel industry when, as is clear from the above statements, within eleven weeks of the proposed take-over date no proper plan for the organisation of the industry has been prepared.]
Mr. Morrison: I am afraid I have not seen the Motion.
Captain Crookshank: Not seen it?
Mr. Morrison: I have known the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not to read his Order Paper before now. In any case, I should have thought that we had debated steel threadbare. I cannot see any need to debate it again. It is all going according to plan.
Mrs. Eirene White: Reverting to the Principality of Wales, can we have an assurance from the Lord President that we shall have a day soon after the House re-assembles for a debate on the first Report of the Council of Wales?
Mr. Morrison: I will see what I can do about that, but I do not want to tie myself up too firmly with my hon. Friend.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: Further to the Question asked by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mr. Edward Davies), would the right hon. Gentleman consider giving a day for a debate on overseas development and foreign trade policy, including the Gray Report?
Mr. Morrison: We have not very much time between now and the Recess. All these things can be kept in mind, but I very much doubt whether there will be time available for that.
Mr. Erroll: Reverting to the Motion about the Steel Corporation, as that Corporation is desperately trying to recruit a staff only 11 weeks before it takes over this industry, will the right hon. Gentleman allow time for a debate on this Corporation, which is unfitted to take over its obligations?
Mr. Morrison: I appreciate the feelings of the hon. Gentleman and some others on the other side of the House. Nothing would please them better than to see a state of complete chaos in this matter, but I think they will be disappointed.
Mr. Douglas Marshall: May I ask the Leader of the House whether hon. Members are likely to have the Bill on the White Fish Industry available to them before 23rd January?
Mr. Morrison: I am not sure.
Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Will the Lord President consider giving a short time to a discussion on the amenities of the new Chamber, for a large number of hon. Members in all quarters of the House have some constructive suggestions to make?
Mr. Morrison: I do not know whether that is urgent or not, but if it is, I would suggest that the hon. and gallant Member tries his hand with Mr. Speaker on the day of the Adjournment. What the result will be I do not know.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
[SECOND DAY'S DEBATE]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Whiteley.]
3.41 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: I hope that the level calm of yesterday's debate will be regarded as an example of our composure in times of danger and not as an instance of any failure on our part to realise its gravity. Perhaps the calm in all its aspects represents various characteristics in our national character. Certainly we are in danger, but the danger is not new. It was visible in all its terrible potential from the moment when the armies of democracy dispersed and melted away in the hour of victory while the armies of the Soviet oligarchy were maintained at an enormous strength and were re-equipped to a very high degree and when, on top of this, Russian imperialism, clothed in a new garb, advanced to carry the creed of Communism and the authority of the Kremlin forth in every direction until some solid obstacle was reached.
This danger became apparent to some of us before the war ended and was recognised widely throughout our confidential circles. It began to be realised by much larger numbers of people in Britain and the United States when the first conference of the Council of the United Nations took place at the beginning of 1946. Up till then for the great masses of the people all had been softened and shrouded in the Western democracies by the comradeship of the great struggle, by their relief in hard-won victory and by their admiration of the valour and sacrifices of the Russian armies.
However, I must remind the House that already at the beginning of 1946 the Foreign Secretary felt himself forced to describe, to his face and in public, Mr. Vyshinsky's statements as lies. I am not blaming the Foreign Secretary, but it showed how rapidly, in the course of a year, we had been disillusioned, or the outer world had been disillusioned. Since then, the increasing realisation by the Western democracies of the danger in which they stood and stand has been continuous.

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There were two major differences between the state of the world after the First and after the Second World Wars. The sour aftermath of triumph in arms, however complete, brought with it in both cases many troubles, but here are the two differences. After the First War, when the victors had disarmed the Germans and their allies, no powerful organised army remained upon the scene except the French Army. After this war the armed might of Russia has emerged steadily year by year, almost month by month, as a rock shows more and more above an ebbing tide.
The second difference, which arose out of the realisation of the first, was that the United States, instead of retiring into isolation, instead of demanding full and prompt repayment of debts and disinteresting herself in Europe and even in the League of Nations, of which she had been one of the founders, has come forward step by step as the knowledge of the situation has dawned upon her and has made the great counterpoise upon which the freedom and the future of our civilisation depends. This fundamental change in the policy of the United States constitutes, in my view, the best hope for the salvation of Christian civilisation and democracy from Communist and Russian conquest and control. I hope, therefore, that we shall regard it as our first objective not to separate ourselves in action or in understanding or in sympathy in any degree, however slight, that can be avoided from the United States.
But the favourable policy of the United States after this last war, which has been so helpful to us in so many ways, did not affect the military disparity caused by the maintenance of immense Russian armies year after year and the development of their armoured forces, their air power and their submarines. We did not come to terms with them at the moment of German surrender while we, too, had the weapons in our hands. The Western Allies abandoned the whole of Eastern Germany, including an immense area of which they stood in occupation, to Soviet control, and Russia remained the overwhelming armed power, towering up in Europe and in Asia, avid for the expansion of their creed and their rule.
The war had liberated Russia from her two pre-occupations—Germany and
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Japan. Both these warlike nations have inflicted terrible defeats and injuries upon Russia in this present twentieth century. Now both have ceased to be military factors and the years that have followed our victory have brought enormous increases of power and territory to Soviet Russia. In one form or another they have gained control of half Europe and all China without losing a single Russian soldier. They have every right to be encouraged by the progress they have made, but they show no signs of being in any way satiated or satisfied or even contented with it, and we can perceive no limits at present to their aims.
So much for the past. Let me now, in the very few minutes I shall detain the House, look to the present and the future. I hoped myself—and my view was shared by my colleagues at that time—that a lasting settlement might be reached with Russia before we evacuated our portion of central and eastern Germany, and before the United States' armies were demobilised and dispersed. Later, in 1948. I hoped that we might come to terms with them before they gained the secret of the atomic bomb. Now I hope that we may come to terms with them before they have so large a stockpile of these fearful agencies, in addition to vast superiority in other weapons, as to be able to terrorise the free world, if not, indeed, to destroy it.
Let us look at the time factor. In some aspects it is in our favour; in some it is adverse. The Soviets, under the restraint of the immense United States' superiority in the atomic sphere, and also by the consolation of the rapid and immense gains which they have made and are still making in many directions without incurring any direct risk—under these two opposite forces—have hitherto been under restraint and control.
They have repeatedly been assured that the United States would not fight what is called a "preventive" war. The United States have expressed the general opinion of the civilised world upon that aspect. On this basis the war, if ever it comes—which God forbid—will come at the moment of their choice. It. however, should be noted that the two restraining or consoling arguments which I have mentioned are both diminishing. The Soviet stockpile of atomic bombs is growing. How fast, I have no idea. I do not

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know whether the Government have knowledge. At any rate, we have none. And the Soviets must expect, while this stockpile is growing in their favour behind them, more resistance to their further expansion, and they will not find their progress so easy as it has been in the past.
It is impossible to prophesy what they will do, or when, or how they will do it. One can only judge these matters by estimating what is their interest. The great Duke of Marlborough quoted a saying in his day: "Interest never lies"; and there is no doubt that trying to put oneself in the position of the other party to see how things look to him is one way, and perhaps the best way, of being able to feel and peer dimly into the unknowable future. It is, at any rate, the only guide—and it does not include accident, passion, folly or madness, madness which may arise from some error, some blunder, or from the results of some internal convulsion. All that can be said is that it certainly does not seem to be in the Russian interest to begin a major struggle now.
We are told that it is provocative to organise an Atlantic army, with, as I see it, a European army inside of it and a German contingent, on honourable terms, inside that. We are told that that is provocative. It does not seem likely, however, that anything that we can do in the next two years in Europe will reverse the balance of military power. We may be stronger, but not strong enough in that time to deter, still less to prevail. There is plenty of room for us to get much stronger without altering the situation in Europe decisively.
Therefore, while it is right to build up our forces as fast as we can, nothing in this process, in the period I have mentioned, will deprive Russia of effective superiority in what are called now the conventional arms. All that it will do is to give us increasing unity in Europe and magnify the deterrents against aggression, and, perhaps, give us the means of gradually approaching the situation when relations between world Powers may express themselves in normal terms and not only be measured in the strange and novel methods of the atomic age.
Dangerous as it may be to make such a prediction—I make it in all good faith, and without official knowledge—I would
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venture to express the opinion that a major attack by Russia in Europe is unlikely in the near future, and that it will not be provoked or produced by the modest measures of defence now being so slowly, so tardily and ineffectively developed up to the present by the Atlantic and Western Powers. Even if our preparations developed more rapidly, a long period must elapse before they could offset the Russian superiority, even if the Russian strength itself were not increased meanwhile.
It is upon this that I found my hope that we still have time, that there is still a breathing space for us to pursue the policy of seeking an understanding, and for us to also pursue the essential counterpart and foundation of any such hope, namely, the building up of a more reasonable measure of defensive strength. This may be a vain hope. I may live, perhaps, to be mocked at if proved wrong by events. It is, at any rate, the working hypothesis of my thought in these anxious and agonising times.
Therefore I am in favour of efforts to reach a settlement with Soviet Russia as soon as a suitable opportunity presents itself, and of making those efforts while the immense and measureless superiority of the United States atomic bomb organisation offsets the Soviet predominance in every other military respect and gives us the means to talk together in a friendly and dignified manner and, at least as equals. I think that we are all agreed with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said yesterday about the kind of answer we should make to the Russian proposals for a Four-Power conference. I was very glad to hear the Foreign Secretary fully endorse the suggestion which he made for drawing up an agenda, which should no doubt be done in the first instance by competent officials.
I hope, however, that at the right and best time, especially after matters are stabilised in the Far East. a conference will arise which will not merely be like those of which we have had too many in the past, of two sides arguing against each other in the glare of publicity, but that the decisive conversations will take place in confidence, in privacy and even in secrecy, and will be conducted at the highest levels. It is what I asked for at Edinburgh six months ago.

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I agree that much has happened since then, particularly these great developments in the Far East and also the immense and active leadership now assumed by the United States, with whom we must march, or walk, hand in hand and to whom we must give all the help and good will which our power and experience allow. Much has happened since then but I do not think we should exclude from any of the discussions which may take place, perhaps after the present unhelpful crisis has passed away, the personal touch between those who have the right and the power to speak for the great States involved. That is only what I said at Edinburgh. I fully agree that time and the new circumstances which have come into view must influence, and even perhaps govern, our action.
This brings me to the crisis in Korea and China. We all find much that is disquieting in it, but I do not see that what is happening in the Far East should make the Soviets in a hurry to depart from their present policy of expansion by means of the cold war and of using others to advance their aims. The Foreign Secretary asked yesterday: Is this move of the Chinese into Korea part of a grand strategy for a definite purpose?
"Is there a Russo-Chinese conspiracy on a world-wide scale?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1172.]
They were very proper questions for the right hon. Gentleman to ask, and to ask himself out loud. He said that he did not know the answers. I do not know who does. If it were true, that certainly would not suggest that the Russians contemplated an immediate violent action in Europe. We can only use the facts as they are known to us and endeavour to deduce conclusions from them.
On the contrary, the plan would evidently be to get the United States and the United Nations, so far as they contribute, involved as deeply as possible in China, and thus prevent the reinforcement of Europe and the building up of our defensive strength there to a point where it would be an effectual deterrent. It is one of the most well-known—almost hackneyed—strategical and tactical methods, to draw your opponent's resources to one part of the field and then, at the right moment, to strike in another. Military
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history shows countless examples of this and of variants of it. Surely, however, the United Nations should avoid by every means in their power becoming entangled inextricably in a war with China.
For this reason I had hoped that General MacArthur's advance in Korea—and I paid my tribute to him the other day, and to the extraordinary skill with which the operations had been handled, up to the point which we had then reached—would stop at the neck or wasp waist of the peninsula and would leave the country between the neck and the Yalu River and the Chinese frontier as a kind of No-man's-land which Allied air power would dominate. Under this cover there might have been constructed an ever-stronger fortified line, across the neck, wherever it might be found suitable. Of course, to hold such a line it is essential that the approaches to it should also be commanded, and therefore such a line cannot be exactly along the imaginary lines which are drawn on the maps to indicate the parallels. To take a practical guide, the shortest space. might be chosen and the strongest defence made there, with a hinterland or neutral space before it—or if not neutral, a No-man's-land, a disputed No-man's-land—which would give the necessary facilities to the defence.
Whether this will be possible now depends upon the result of the great battle which is at this moment raging. I suppose we shall know in a few days what the results are. I am sure, however, that the whole House feels that the sooner the Far Eastern diversion—because, vast as it is, it is but a diversion—can be brought into something like a static condition and stabilised, the better it will be for all those hopes which the United Nations have in hand. For it is in Europe that the world cause will be decided. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington said yesterday, it is there that the mortal danger lies. I am sure that we all agree with that. Perhaps we are biased by the fact that we live there or thereabouts. But none the less, one cannot conceive that our natural bias has in any way distorted the actual facts.
There is another reason why we should be very careful not to indulge in criticisms of the United States or their commanders, or do anything which could weaken, even by gusts of opinion, the vital ties that bind our fates together.

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We fight in the name of the United Nations. That gives a great moral sanction to our action, but in Korea and the Far East the burden falls almost entirely on the United States. It is important to get the proportions right. The Minister for Defence read us out yesterday, or circulated, the British casualties before the recent fighting. I fear that they may have been increased since then. The killed were 51, wounded 175 and missing 5.
We have not been told what are the American casualties, but I have heard on good authority that they have lost at least 7,000 or 8,000 men killed and between 20,000 and 30,000 wounded. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but that was before this recent fighting. And therefore I say that we must realise the enormous weight of the burden that rests upon them and of the noble sacrifices they are making in the common cause.
Casualties are no doubt not the only measure of war effort, but they are the supreme and truest measure of the sacrifice and exertion of the brave troops made by any army. Our contribution and that of the other United Nations countries, however precious to us, cannot in any way he compared with that of the United States. Our thoughts are with our own gallant soldiers. We watch their fortunes with the deepest sympathy and confidence that they will do their duty with distinction. But their presence there must be taken as a symbol of our loyalty to the common cause and our main responsibility lies here at home in Europe.
I thought that it was a great pity when at the American suggestion and under American pressure the Combined Chiefs of Staff Committee was allowed to lapse. Contacts have, I fear, been lost which cannot be wholly regained by larger bodies speaking different languages. The Combined Chiefs of Staff Committee was the keystone of our arch of victory. Formally or informally, in one way or another, it should, I am sure, be reconstituted at the earliest moment. It is quite true that when we have so few troops engaged in the existing theatre of war, we cannot expect to exert influence except by reasoned argument. But let us make sure we have full opportunity for that, especially taking place as it would between officers who have been through the great struggle together and who know
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each others' minds and have confidence in each others' characters.
I entirely agree with what my right hon. Friend said yesterday that the strongest British representation possible should be available—I mean Ministerial representation—in Washington and if necessary at Lake Success. It should be there in these present anxious and formative weeks. No one must underrate the latent strength of our country or the contribution we are capable of making directly or indirectly to the common cause of the United Nations.
When your friend and ally is bearing almost the whole weight, it is natural that he will have the control. War is little more than a catalogue of mistakes and misfortunes. It is when misfortune comes, however, that allies must hold more firmly together than ever before. Here in Britain, and I doubt not throughout the British Empire and Commonwealth of Nations, we always follow a very simple rule, which has helped us in maintaining the safety of this country: "The worse things get, the more we stand together."
Let it also be seen that the English-speaking world follows the same plan. Nothing will be more helpful in rousing the nations of Europe to coherent measures of self-defence than the feeling that the unity of the English-speaking world and of the free nations of Western Europe is unbreakable, and that the stresses and perils of our position only weld us more solidly together and call forth whatever exertions are necessary for self-preservation.
This also applies in a smaller sphere to our party affairs at home. Had some of the Amendments, or one of the Amendments, on the Paper been moved, we should, of course, have voted with His Majesty's Government. But even if there is no Division—and I understand that a Division is unlikely—the House of Commons has here today, by its temper and its attitude, an opportunity of making our fundamental unities apparent to the world, and we may be sure that all this process gives the best hope of avoiding a third world war, not by appeasement of opponents from weakness, but by wise measures, fair play from strength and the proof of unconquerable resolve.
4.20 p.m.
Mr. Wyatt: I am sure the House will agree with me that the

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right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), on this day, his 76th birthday, has made one of the greatest speeches of his career. I should like, as one who has often attacked the right hon. Gentleman in the past, to say how much I welcomed everything he has said today. I am sure that we shall see how helpful his speech has been in the near future. I thoroughly agree with him, that at this time of considerable difficulty it is very much our duty to support the Government in what they have done and are trying to do today.
I believe that our Government have been acting over the last four or five months with great wisdom and skill, and that their advice may well have saved the world from a third world war on several occasions during that time. I believe that the more the advice of the British Government is followed during these difficult times, the better it will be for all of us—which was the general tenor of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks. There are, of course, some who felt and said that we should not have gone so far beyond the 38th Parallel. There were some of us who criticised General MacArthur in his capacity as a politician, rather than that of a general; but he has been left in command, and we have gone further over the 38th Parallel than many thought wise. Obviously, we cannot possibly pull out now. It is no good trying to disown our American friends because we may feel that some of them have been mistaken in their actions.
Our aim must be to do all we can to prevent a third world war, and to do that we should try, as the right hon. Gentleman did, to put ourselves in the minds of our potential opponents. I should like to consider what may be behind the Chinese behaviour in Korea at the moment, and what factors there may be that are influencing her attitude. First, I think that the Chinese are acting, in part, on the basis of their traditional xenophobia—their traditional hatred of the foreigner—and also their traditional expansionist attitude towards surrounding countries. It has long been the policy of China to expand into other countries in the South and South-East, even though it has not been followed previously by military conquest.
The second factor is their standard Communist belief that the entire world is
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against them. Thirdly, the new China, having just emerged, finds herself without an avowed friend in the world, except for Russia, and feels that she is obliged to base her policy very largely on Russia. I do not think that this necessarily makes China a satellite of Russia, although clearly her policy is closely interlinked with Russia at the present time.
Why did China go into Korea? The Foreign Secretary attempted some questions on this point yesterday, and I should also like to contribute to them. In the first place, she was partly actuated by fear. We must remember that, for China, America has to a large extent taken the place of Japan. It is America that China has been fighting for many years, and particularly since the end of the war. It is America that provided Chiang Kai-shek with arms. Therefore, they feel that their greatest potential enemy is America. I am not saying that they are correct in that, but I feel that that is a large part of the reason they have gone into Korea. They were afraid that in Korea a military and ideological base of the West, particularly of the Americans, was going to be set up, and they did not want it to be so close to them.
There is another factor in regard to their movement into Korea, and that is their enormous self-confidence. It has long been the habit of the Chinese to be extremely overweening, believing that they can do almost anything any other country may be able to do. This particularly applies to the new Government that has come into power without any help in their fight against Chiang Kai-shek. There is another important factor in regard to the Chinese attitude to the rest of the world, and that is that she does not fear invasion as much as many other countries do.
The Japanese found themselves almost bogged down in China, for many years. Therefore, the Chinese have been through all this before, I do not think they are as scared of being invaded, by America or the West, as many other countries might be in similar circumstances. The United States have not the two million troops available which the Japanese had.
If China and Russia have decided together on a third world war, there is not very much we can do to stop it. All we can do is to see that, when the war

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comes, we so arrange matters as to have world opinion behind us, and that we have as many allies as we can possibly get. But, I believe, as the right hon. Gentleman believes about Russia, that China does not want a third world war, or a major war, with America or the West. I cannot see, from the cogent argument the right hon. Gentleman advanced of self-interest, what possible gain China could have from a major war. The new China has only just come into being, and she has much to consolidate in her own territory. It is rather too early in 12 months to be thinking of expanding herself by conquest. Therefore, there seems to be nothing to be gained from a world war. It should be easy to avoid a war, provided one can get the good will which there must be on both sides.
I would go further than the right hon. Gentleman's statement about not advancing beyond the Korean isthmus, and say that we should now announce that if the Chinese withdraw their troops, we will withdraw to a defensive line in the isthmus beyond which we will not go, and that we will then discuss what should be done in the future about Korea. There should be many possible formula which could be worked out to produce a situation in which a settlement could be effected. There is the well-known buffer zone which has been much talked about, and the possibility of sending out a United Nations Commission to supervise the intervening territory while further arrangements are being made. We must make it clear to China that we have no aggressive intentions towards her, and the important point is that China must be convinced of that.
We should not support the American amendment in the United Nations which names China as an aggressor. The word "aggressor" carries for us far more legal consequences than it does when used by Russia and China against us, when it is merely meaningless verbiage. If we label a country as an aggressor, there are important consequences which must flow from that. At the same time, we should not contemplate leaving Korea, or abandoning, the action the United Nations have undertaken. We should stand firm, but be sensible about it and give China a chance to extricate herself. It must be remembered that the Chinese have carefully avoided committing themselves in any formal sense in regard to the invasion.
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We have to see, in everything we do, that we carry world opinion with us. On this particular issue, the greatest responsibility rests with the United States. They wanted, in the first place, to get United Nations support for their action in Korea, and quite rightly so but I do not think they have been as careful to get world opinion with them in everything they have done since. The United States, in their position of supreme responsibility must learn moderation.
This applies to rather more than Korea. It applies, for instance, to us. I have a telegram in my pocket—I dare say many other Members have a similar telegram—in which I am told that unless a further supply of zinc is immediately made available large numbers of people in my constituency will be thrown out of employment. Why is that? It is because, in the face of a threat of war, the United States have carried on what can only be described as a reckless stockpiling programme.
United States stockpiling for war purposes, unless we are very careful, is going to cripple British industry within six months. If British industry is crippled within six months, where goes our rearmament programme, which, after all, is a great integral part of the United States-British association for world peace? But it is not only happening in zinc supplies of sulphur have been running out because most of it has been cornered by the United States. They have been buying soft wood pulp in Scandinavia, supplies which normally come to this country, and the same is happening in regard to wool. All these raw materials are being bought immoderately without any consideration by the United States of America of her principal ally.
Above all, it must be remembered that the association between Britain and America is a great partnership, and in a great partnership both sides must be heard. Both voices are entitled to be equally heard and I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition when he calls for the setting up again of some sort of a Joint Chiefs of Staff organisation similar to that which we had during the war.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: On the question of stockpiling, while I agree with the effect that it has

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from the point of view of industry in this country, will the hon. Gentleman be very careful to state that it is all countries, and not only the United States, which are rushing to stockpile? The figures for nearly every one of the vital raw materials show perfectly well that it is an ill-ordered rush, not by the United States alone, but by other countries, including Russia, which is causing the trouble.
Mr. Wyatt: I see the hon. Member's point, and I do not wish to infer that the Americans alone are doing it; but we must face the fact that they are the principal country in this affair. As they have the greatest buying power, their responsibility is the greatest, and it is up to them to use these responsibilities with moderation and in consultation with their principal ally. I know that all countries are doing this, but the burden of restraint principally falls upon the United States.
I have nothing more to say, other than to express the hope that the Government will continue to use their great influence in Washington—I believe this influence has been considerable—on the lines suggested by the Foreign Secretary yesterday in a very remarkable speech, which I think we all welcomed, and also by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition today. If we are to be realistic, we must recognise that the Anglo-Saxon countries stand or fall together. One cannot go down without bringing the other down, too. This is the greatest association for peace which the world has ever seen. We must see to it that the association stands, and our influence must ensure that in no way is an immoderate policy allowed to endanger and bring us to a third world war.
4.43 p.m.
Mr. Henry Hopkinson: I have listened to this debate with great attention, and I have been struck by two things—first, the very great and natural anxiety of the House in regard to the present crisis, and secondly, the deep sincerity which seemed to inspire the speeches in all quarters of the House, together with a genuine desire to find a just and peaceful solution. I should like to assure the House that in anything that I intend to say this afternoon. I am inspired by exactly that same desire. At the same time, I believe it is important to try to dispel any illusions or miscon-
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ceptions which may exist in our minds and in the minds of our own people, or, indeed, elsewhere, in regard to any possible eventuality.
It has often been contended that Stalin, unlike Hitler, does not want war. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) just now gave a number of cogent reasons why the Soviet Government should not want war at this time. It was certainly true in the past, and notably in the period immediately after the war, when the terrible losses in manpower and materials caused the Russians to take a breathing space. The question is whether it is, in fact, true today. I doubt whether the answer can be a complete affirmative or a complete negative. My right hon. Friend's argument was that, in spite of the overwhelming conventional military strength of the Soviet Union, her weakness in atomic weapons would make an immediate war unlikely. That may very well he so. It is certainly true that if Russia wanted war, she could have had it many times on terms more favourable to herself than is the case today.
On the other hand, it seems that, in spite of the atomic position, Russia is no longer afraid of a general war. She has already taken one chance when she encouraged the North Koreans to invade South Korea. I imagine that, in her judgment, that was not a very great chance, but it was taking a chance. She took another when she encouraged the Chinese Communists to intervene in Korea also. The risk of open war between China and the United Nations was taken into account presumably by the Chinese and Russian leaders. The possibility of it is still not altogether excluded. In that case Russia, under her treaty with Communist China, would be bound to go to the assistance of her ally if China required her to do so.
China herself, by her action not only in Korea but in Indo-China, has shown that she is prepared to contemplate—I do not say that she wants—a general war. As the Foreign Secretary said yesterday, we can only guess at her intentions. Her general aim seems to be to end all Western influence in Asia and herself to become the dominant power in that Continent. As the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Follick) said yesterday, this eventually may bring her

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into a clash with Russia over Manchuria, but for the moment, I think she must be regarded as the instrument of Moscow.
On the short-term view, the numbers of the Chinese forces operating in Korea, or at present in Manchuria, are certainly of such a size as to suggest that the Chinese Government intend to throw the United Nations Forces into the sea. Here I should like to ask the Prime Minister, when he replies to the debate tonight, to give an assurance that our small contingent, which is fighting so gallantly in Korea, and which, according to Press reports, is to play a very vital part in stopping up the gap, has now got everything it requires in the way of reinforcements, equipment and supplies sufficient in fact to maintain it at full fighting efficiency. It is a question of deep concern to all in this House and in the country, and general anxiety has not been diminished altogether by recent answers to Questions in the House.
I should also like to refer to the gallant part which the Turkish Brigade, which has been thrown into the line in Korea, is now playing. It is not, after all, undramatic that this unit of an army, which has been fully mobilised for over 11 years to defend its own territories, should find itself first in action in a distant land fighting in the cause of the United Nations.
The Communist military offensive in the Far East has been matched by the Communist peace offensive in Europe. The so-called World Peace Congress at Warsaw, the Prague Declaration, the Soviet invitation to the Western Allies to open fresh negotiations with Germany must all be regarded as part of one operation. The presence of a Chinese Communist delegation at Lake Success, which we welcome, completes the picture. However, it is not there to answer charges of Chinese intervention, but to make accusations of aggression against America.
Two immediate questions confront the Western Allies. There is, first, the question whether to embark on these further negotiations with the Soviet Government, and if so, on what conditions; secondly, what attitude they and the United Nations as a whole should adopt towards the Chinese Communist intervention in North Korea. In my view, the problems of East and West must be dealt with as a whole. I believe that it would be utterly unrealistic to engage in conversations with
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Soviet Russia on Germany or European affairs while the United Nations are being openly flouted by the Chinese in Korea, with the possibilities even of a major military disaster.
In these circumstances, I suggest that any agreement to enter into negotiations should be made conditional upon three things. First, the negotiations must be worldwide in scope; and I understood from the Foreign Secretary's speech yesterday that that is the intention of His Majesty's Government. Secondly, in my judgment it must provide for the prior withdrawal of all Chinese Communist forces from North Korea. In return I suggest that the United Nations forces should undertake to remain in their present positions. This is very much the same proposal as the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) has just made in a slightly different form. I suggest, further, that settlement of the question of the vacated territory should be left to the United Nations Korean Commission, to which should be added Russian and Chinese Communist representatives as the interested parties on that frontier.
It might be said that this suggestion, which is also a combination of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) suggested yesterday, does not depend on the Soviet Government alone. I believe, however, that the Russians can properly be expected to use their influence with Mao Tse-tung to ask him to carry out a proposal of this kind. After all, they are the signatories of this extremely close and binding Sino-Soviet treaty. I believe that that influence, if used, would be effective. At the same time, I think that the Chinese Communist Government might reasonably be asked to withhold any further supplies to Viet Nam in Indo-China, and also to hold up operations in Tibet. I think that it would be only reasonable to ask her to do those things.
Mr. Harold Davies: I have followed the hon. Gentleman with interest, but does he really believe that if we are to enter a conference at this vital juncture we can ask for a conference on all the outstanding problems that now confront the world? Would he not agree that it would be better to take a specific area, Korea and the Chinese issue, and try to tidy up that, rather than have a world conference which, I believe, would collapse because of other issues?
Mr. Hopkinson: This seems to me to be a matter of balancing things out. It is a matter of concessions, to some extent, on both sides. My own view is that in a wider conference it would be easier to work these things out, first of all, as I shall try to show, in a four-Power conference, and then to bring in the Chinese at a later stage.
I would propose a third condition, which is that the Soviet Government should be asked to do what they have been in a position to do for years now, and that is to sign the Austrian Peace Treaty at once. They would thus give concrete proof of their good intentions, with all that that involves. The withdrawal of their forces from Roumania and Hungary, with the general détente that would undoubtedly follow in Central Europe, would for the first time be proof of a real intention, showing that they mean business.
I do not suggest that the Chinese Communists should be asked to take part in the negotiations to begin with, but I think that we ought to make it clear to them that these negotiations would include, not only such questions as their recognition by the United States and their admission to the United Nations, but the future of Formosa, the future of Korea, and the future of Tibet—and, indeed, a Japanese Treaty might also be dealt with. Of course, the negotiations would also include the important question of the future of Germany. I, personally, would like to see these same conversations extended to take into account further discussions on the control of atomic energy, on which I do not believe that the Western Powers and the Soviet Union are as far removed as is sometimes thought.
Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas (The Wrekin): Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that a necessary prerequisite to achieving anything in the way of such a basis of agreement with the Chinese Communist Government would be admission of their claim to membership of the United Nations and the Security Council, and disowning any claim of Chiang Kai-shek to Chinese sovereignty or representation?
Mr. Hopkinson: As my right hon. Friend said yesterday, we could not accept the Chinese Communists in the United Nations when they are at present flouting the United Nations by their aggression in
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Korea. As I have suggested, a prior condition would be a settlement in Korea and the Chinese withdrawal from Korea, and we could then go on to these other practical questions.
Mr. Thomas: I agree on that point, but when we reach the stage of bargaining with the Chinese Communist Government, I think that what I have suggested would be essential prerequisites to any form of agreement.
Mr. Hopkinson: I have tried to suggest that it would not only be a question of her admission to the United Nations, but that the question of Formosa, which is the main bone of contention in this connection, would also be discussed.
We must hope that some such conditions will form the subject of the agenda which is to be discussed in Paris next week, and that they will be accepted by the Soviet Government. I do not think it is asking too much of them, if they are really sincere in their desire for peace, to accept conditions in this way. I believe that if they accepted, they would produce an immediate change in the international climate, and that for once—possibly the first time since the war—there would be a chance of opening the way to a genuine peace.
4.57 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Davies): It was thought that it might be convenient if I intervened this afternoon to deal with some of the miscellaneous matters, as it were, which have been raised during the Debate, so that when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister replies he will be able to deal with the larger issues which have been discussed. I, therefore, do not propose to deal with the serious questions of Korea and the Far East, but I shall deal largely with other matters which have been mentioned.
I think that so far during the debate it has been clear that there is little division on the fundamental issues before us, but there is perhaps a difference of opinion between some hon. Members. On the one hand, there are those who think that we are arming today because we consider that war is inevitable, and, on the other hand, there are those who think that rearmament is necessary because by rearming we shall be able to prevent a third world war from coming about.

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Yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo), said that the division was not so much between East and West as between those who thought that war was inevitable and those who thought that it was not. It does not necessarily mean that those who do not think it is inevitable are opposed to the free world arming itself and becoming strong to resist aggression if it becomes necessary. His Majesty's Government belong to the latter group. Far from thinking that war is inevitable, their policy is based on preventing the present conflicts and international tension from extending into a world conflict.
His Majesty's Government take the view that armaments in themselves cannot possibly prevent war, but that in present circumstances to build up a position of strength is unfortunately unavoidable, At no point have His Majesty's Government departed from a belief in collective security as a means of preventing war and as a way of deterring potential aggressors We have never departed from our belief in collective security but we have, through force of circumstances, been driven to accept the necessity of re-arming at the present time. However, by so doing we do not underestimate the difficulties inherent in embarking upon such a huge rearmament programme as we have been compelled to do. After all, when two opposing groups of Powers are armed to the teeth, the danger is necessarily great.
To those who, like His Majesty's Government, regret the necessity today of spending money on arms which could so much more constructively be spent for social and economic purposes, and to those who spoke yesterday and were a little critical of this expenditure, I say that it was not this Government which started the re-armament race. From 1945, when we came into power, and onwards, we cut down expenditure rapidly. Yesterday when the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe), was attacking us for having cut down expenditure on arms so speedily in those early days, I recall that it was Members of the Opposition who were then demanding that we should de- mobilise quicker and reduce our expenditure in that respect faster.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that
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when suggestions were made after the war for a speed-up in demobilisation, nobody on this side of the House, least of all my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, suggested that the figure arrived at should be anything like as low as it became.
Mr. Davies: The fact remains that we were being pressed to speed up demobilisation at that time. But that now is history, and I do not wish to stir up that old controversy.
Air Commodore Harvey: The hon. Gentleman has done it already.
Mr. Ellis Smith: It is, what Truman says that matters.
Mr. Davies: Because of the lack of co-operation in the United Nations, because of the successful expansion of the U.S.S.R. without going to war, because of the threat of further expansion, and because of her growing strength, we were driven to build up a system of collective security on a regional basis among the nations of the free world, and to back this alliance with force. As long as collective security is not universal, regional grouping is essential. It is essential in order to protect against aggression that section of the world which remains free, and to enable it to preserve its democratic way of life.
I think it can safely be said that the policy we have been following has been a deterrent recently to what one might almost call peaceful aggression—aggression without resort to war. No one can deny, for instance, that the Berlin air lift succeeded in halting the U.S.S.R.'s drive to oust the Western countries from Berlin and, ultimately, from Western Germany. Had this stand not been taken at that time, it is quite possible that, consecutively, Communism would have spread further westward to Germany, Italy and France.
Rearmament became necessary in order-that we should back up our collective security on a regional basis with force, and it is within this context that there have been some discussions concerning the question of German rearmament during, the debate of these last two days. We can all appreciate the reluctant acceptance of German rearmament with all its potential dangers. No one accepts the neces-

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sity for German rearmament without considerable regret and reluctance, but it is believed that the change in circumstances has made it necessary.
One reason is that we do not want to have to liberate the Continent again. We want to be on the Continent as protectors and to ensure, if the worst came to the worst and there was war, that there would be resistance against the enemy on the continent of Europe. After all, if enemy forces succeeded in reaching the Channel Ports again, the position of this country would clearly be untenable and the situation would be very different from what it was in 1940, which was bad enough.
The huge cost of modern defence in both men and materials requires now, in the view of His Majesty's Government, some German rearmament. Fears have been expressed that it will be extremely difficult to prevent the re-emergence of German militarism. The suggested integration of the German units inside the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation—the German units being organised up to a certain level, but without a German general staff—is thought to provide the answer.
This afternoon the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) referred once more to the question of a European Army I would remind him that the Foreign Secretary yesterday did not rule out altogether the possibility of a European Army being fitted into the pattern of Atlantic defence, provided that there was no delay in building up Western defences and no danger of weakening the security of the Atlantic Powers. As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, time may be short, and we cannot take any risk of there being a delay in building up the North Atlantic Treaty forces.
It has been suggested by hon. Friends behind me that, if German units are created, it will be impossible to prevent the emergence of a German national army and a recurrence of German militarism; that as a German military machine is again built up, there may be pressure to regain the Eastern countries, and that this would create a dangerous situation on the Continent. We understand these grave doubts which have been expressed. but, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign
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Secretary stated yesterday, the proposals now under consideration specifically avoid, and, indeed, prohibit, the recreation of the German general staff or, which is equally important, a German Army on the old Wehrnzacht model.
None the less, it can be, and is, argued that it will be impossible to enforce any limitation upon the Germans once the initial steps are taken. An hon. Friend behind me stated yesterday that these steps would be followed by the creation of Panzer divisions and that they would then roll across Europe again, and that the Luftwaffe would be flying again, and I believe that a distinguished German general who participated in the control over Germany after the 1914–18 War was quoted in support of this theory. [HON. MEMBERS: "A British general."] I am sorry—a British general. I suggest that those who adopt this line of thought are not only being unduly pessimistic, but are victims of the theory that history repeats itself.
There is a very great distinction, I think, between what happened in the 1920's and what is happening now. In those days Germany was treated by the Western Allies as the most dangerous potential enemy and as a sort of pariah among nations. If we were to adopt the same system again, I have no doubt that we would produce the same results. This time, however, we are acting in a different spirit. Together with the Allies, we have embarked upon a process of reintegrating Germany into the democratic framework of Western Europe.
This is a gradual process. Five years ago we allowed the Germans to have governments in the Laender, and 16 months ago we encouraged them to set up the Federal Government. Since then we have been engaged in bringing Germany once more into international relations and proposing her for membership of the various international clubs—for example, the Council of Europe, the Food and Agriculture Organisation, and so on.
It was inevitable that on this course of development Germany would one day take part in the duties of defending this western way of life, of which she forms an integral part. The process has been hurried by the rapid growth of the menace from the East, and we are combining appropriate safeguards with the principle

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of German participation. We think that these are genuine safeguards. The final safeguard, however, is that Germany should feel herself a partner in the Western comity of nations and should form the habit of acting within that framework. I suggest, therefore, that those who talk or think of the dangers of German militarism should try to think of Germany as emerging as a new Germany, and one which can be brought into the comity of nations in Europe and can assist Europe in defending its democratic way of life.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: Is the prosecution of German generals to continue? Are we to ask Germans to wear uniform and then to say that we are going to prosecute those who are still awaiting trial?
Mr. Davies: The prosecution of German generals stopped a long time ago. There was a Question in the House concerning this only last week, when I gave the information that this had stopped, as far as the British zone was concerned, two or three years ago—in 1947, I think.
As regards the suggested Four Power meeting, which has received considerable discussion during the debate and has received a very large measure of support, it appears from all that has been said that the House agrees that the constructive approach, outlined yesterday by my right hon. Friend, is the right approach. As for those interesting suggestions which have been put forward, and which were put forward both by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) yesterday and by the Leader of the Opposition today, I do not propose to comment on them in detail now. The points which have been made, however, will be taken into full consideration by my right hon. Friend when instructions are being prepared for our representatives at the Three-Power conversations in Paris.
Now I come to Austria. So far as Austria is concerned, it is quite correct to say that the Treaty, for all practical purposes, is complete; but as far as we are aware, there is no readiness on the part of the Soviet to sign it or to carry out its provisions. That readiness and willingness to carry out these provisions would not only be a great relief to Austria itself, but would contribute greatly towards easing the political situation in Eastern
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Europe. We hope, therefore, that if there is success in bringing about these Four-Power meetings, the question of Austria will finally be resolved.
Hon. Members will share the regret of the Government that this has not yet been possible, but it will have been seen that on 10th and 22nd November, we and the French and United States Governments protested to the Soviet Government against the action of the Soviet authorities during recent Communist-inspired disturbances in Austria. We have noted with admiration the cool and resolute manner in which the Austrian Government and people behaved during those disturbances.
It remains the policy of His Majesty's Government to alleviate, as far as possible in present circumstances, the burden of our occupation of Austria, and to this end we have just decided to build a block of 100 flats for our married troops in Austria, so that further accommodation may be released for the civilian population. Strong representation has been made to us over some months regarding the necessity for releasing requisitioned premises, and I think that the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington was made well aware of this when he was recently in that country.
Building up our position of strength puts us in a far better position to negotiate—and negotiation, as has been pointed out frequently during the debate, is better from strength than from weakness. Even so, much more is required than just building up military strength. The free world must, I think all would agree, not only act responsibly, but must win respect from others and inspire emulation in others, that by our example and through the mutual help which we give to others the democracies may demonstrate that they have more to offer to the peoples of the world than have the totalitarian countries.
The democratic countries can offer economic and political development combined with the maintenance of liberty and freedom. This economic contribution which the democracies are striving to make is, as it were, the counterpart to this military preparedness and is, so to speak, the other side of the medal. Unfortunately, in the present state of international tension the constructive aspects, which depend unfortunately upon

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the existence of destructive elements to enable progress to continue, are somewhat lost sight of.
The hon. Member for Windsor said yesterday that the Colombo Plan must not be considered as a substitute for rearmament. It is equally important that military preparedness and military action are not considered as a substitute for political and economic development. Economic strength through co-operation is as important as, if not more important than, military strength, not only because there cannot be the latter without it, but because it enables communities to enjoy improving standards of life which assist social and political development. That is the best answer to the Communist appeal—the economic and social improvement of communities.
Further, the free world can, and must, satisfy the natural nationalistic aspirations for self-government of the less developed areas of the world. It is necessary, if we are to make our appeal and get the support of those countries which are still undeveloped in comparison with the West, that we should demonstrate that the free world can provide as satisfactory a way of life as that which The Russian-dominated Communist world promotes.
Indo-China has been referred to once or twice in the debate. In Indo-China the struggle for independence has been long and hard, but this week we did witness there, in spite of the difficult military situation which still prevails, an important contribution to the achievement of full independence of the Associated States of Indo-China. This was at the closing of the Pau Conference, and His Majesty's Government welcomed the declaration made by M. Letourneau, the Minister for the Associated States, at the close of the Conference on Monday this week. This, he said, carried the Associated States much further along the road to complete independence, which is the agreed objective, by their independence within the French Union. This policy, which the French National Assembly have approved, according to him, would be continued energetically, boldly and with elasticity and would only be retarded by any difficulties which the States themselves might meet. But the development towards full independence did not end
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with the ending of the Pau Conference. It has been carried on by according national armies and by establishing a measure of representation abroad which will rightly help to achieve full independence in those States.
Another matter which has been raised concerns the Middle East. Considerable debate took place yesterday concerning Egypt, and my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South, was concerned with the wider area of the Middle East. Much that was said from the benches opposite concerning Egypt would be shared by hon. Members on this side of the House, and the Foreign Secretary has made it quite clear how we stand in regard to the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty. There is no question whatsoever that it can be unilaterally abrogated. On that my right hon. Friend has made his position quite clear. It cannot be abrogated by one of the parties. But we do think that, if revision is called for, it can be agreed upon and can be reached, provided that the parties who go into the talks which are about to start do so in the spirit of looking, not at Egypt in isolation, but at the question of the defence of the whole of the Middle East. In that way we think some solution to the present difficulties could be found and that a revision of the Treaty, or its substitution by something else, is still possible.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South, suggested that His Majesty's Government were not doing all they could in the Middle East in an attempt to bring about a settlement between Israel and the Kingdom of Jordan. He suggested that if we were really determined about it, it could be achieved within a fortnight. I would remind my hon. Friend that Jordan is an independent State and that King Abdullah is a constitutional monarch, ruling through his Council of Ministers, and that while King Abdullah has been a most loyal friend of this country and there are obligations for collective defence which he has undertaken under the Treaty, it would be contrary to our interests, as well as to our practice, to endeavour, by cutting his subsidy, to force him into a course of action which he or his Council of Ministers were disinclined to adopt. I cannot understand why it is that, when we are giving assistance to other countries, we are sometimes asked to impose

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conditions upon that assistance, but when it is a question of assistance being given to us and when there is any suspicion that conditions may be attached, there is considerable objection. It seems to me that, although the size of the problem is entirely different, the principle applies in each case.
Another matter which was raised, and which I think can be briefly disposed of, is that of Chinese representation in the United Nations. In reply to the doubts expressed by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington about the desirability and wisdom of still supporting the admission of the representatives of the Chinese People's Government into the various organs of the United Nations, I think I can make our view clear by saying that the State of China is under the Charter of the United Nations, a Member of the United Nations and nothing can change that. China is a Member of the United Nations and what is in dispute is who should represent China at the present time.
In our view, and it is unquestionable, the People's Government of China is the effective Government of China and the Nationalist representatives there today do not represent anything but a small section of the Chinese people. If it were suggested that the representatives of the People's Government should not represent China in the United Nations, as long as that situation prevails it means that hundreds of millions of Chinese are going without true representation in the United Nations. When a country is legally a member of that body we cannot judge by its actions who shall represent it. The question is not who shall represent that country according to the way in which they behave. As long as China is a member under the Charter, she has to be represented by her true representatives on the organs of the United Nations.
Mr. Eden: Is it the view of the Government that now, despite everything, China should be admitted at this moment? I want to know where we are.
Mr. Davies: Certainly. Our view is that the true representatives of China should be sitting in the Council of the United Nations because thereby it might be far easier to speak to, to discuss and negotiate with the true representatives of China
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within the United Nations than to have to bring them there, as we have succeeded in doing, to discuss simply one issue, the issue of Formosa.
Mr. Eden: I want to be clear, as I have not understood what the views of the Government are.
The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): They have not changed.
Mr. Eden: The Minister of Health says, "They have not changed." I thought that while acts of aggression were going on, it was not proposed to press for their admission. It does require a vote and is not automatic. We have to vote and I would find it very difficult to vote for the admission of China while they are behaving in this way.
Mr. Davies: I fully appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's point of view on that issue. The stand I am taking on behalf of His Majesty's Government is that we consider it would be preferable if they were there now, but if the question comes up on the vote, that is a matter which has to be decided on its merits at the time. I am not committing—
Mr. Eden: I do not want to be unfair. I quite understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying about the past, and that if they had been there, it would have been better. What I want to be clear about is that the Government are not pressing at this instant at U.N.O. for a vote to put them in. If so, we are agreed.
Mr. Davies: It does not arise at the moment. There is no question of a vote at U.N.O. at present. If it comes up, obviously a decision will be taken at the time.
I have covered some of the points which have been raised so far during the debate. As I said at the outset, the larger issues can be dealt with in the winding-up speeches tonight. Our approach to all these problems, and our objectives, are those shared by all Members of this House—the prevention of any conflict or international tension at present, and the preservation of peace so that the democratic way of life in the free world can be preserved. This debate has shown that in that respect we are united, and to that extent the debate has certainly served a most useful purpose.
5.21 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam: I do not intend to detain the House for very long, because I know there are so many other Members who wish to speak, and also because I always strive to observe the very wise maxim which we all can see carved over a door in this House:
"He that hath knowledge spareth his words:"
I sometimes think it is a pity that that motto is not more often acted upon by Members of this House.
We have had an interesting debate, which is now in its second and concluding day. It is perfectly clear that all of us in this House, to whatever party we may belong, are deeply conscious of the desperately dangerous situation that now exists, and are all anxious in one way or another to do nothing that makes it worse. I belong to a generation which can remember when Russia was always our great menace, when we were more nervous of a Russian attack upon India than we were of anything else. It was not until the German menace came near and closer to us all that we ceased to have that continual fear of a Russian war. Territorial expansion has been the policy of Russia ever since the days of Ivan the Great. We all know that the present Government in Russia have adopted that intensely nationalistic policy of the Czars, and have acted upon it ever since they have been in power. We always thought that Russia's policy was dictated by the acquisitive Czars, monarchs and despots, but unfortunately the Communist successors of the Czar have proved even more aggressive and ambitious in their foreign policy.
It is clear that our difficulties since the war, and the present lamentable state of affairs, are almost entirely due to the policy of Moscow. I share, with all Members of the House, a deep sympathy for the Foreign Secretary, who is having to cope with that state of affairs. My own view is that he has succeeded as well as any man could in the difficult position in which he has found himself. My only complaint against him is that he has weakened his own chances of success by allowing our own military weakness. I remember the attitude he took up when a member of the Coalition Government
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during the war, when, in the course of some debate it was asserted that the Tory Party were responsible for our state of unpreparedness before 1939. The Foreign Secretary was good enough to state that the Tories were not the only people to blame. He added that one thing about which he had made up his mind was that never again would we be found in a position of unpreparedness if he could help it.
I cannot feel that the position today bears out very effectively the Foreign Secretary's attitude in that respect. Our complaint against the Government, as has been said in this debate, is that we are so intensely weak militarily at a time when we ought to be strong, and that so much money has been spent on our defence organisation with so little effect. That is our grievance against the Government.
We now have to face the fact that at any moment the cold war may develop into a real war, and that we are not ready; and that until we can bring into existence a sufficiently well-equipped and large enough force to defend Western Europe, we are at the mercy of the Russians and any other pepoles who choose to associate themselves with them in a war on the Continent. I do not believe it to be too much of an exaggeration to say that, as things are, the enemy could be on the English Channel within a very short time of the start of his advance. If that is the case, we have every reason to try to re-arm ourselves as quickly as possible, and no one can possibly blame us for so doing. That is the best way to defend this country against possible aggression.
I did not quite gather from what the Under-Secretary of State has just said what is the position of Germany in the defence of Western Europe. We are apt to forget that Germany is now cut in two, and that, if we are to believe what we read in the Press, there is already in existence in the Eastern part of Germany a German Communist army which may march with the Russians should war begin. What is to happen then? Do we anticipate that we shall find the Germans fighting each other? Do we think that the Germans intend to have a civil war on top of everything else? Has any assurance been given by the Western German Government that they will take

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part in a European Army or whatever it may be called?
Our task is somehow or other to bring the Germans into the Western European Union. I have realised that and have advocated it in this House. It is indispensable. We cannot possibly defend Western Europe unless we have Germany on our side against the Russians. Therefore, I say it is the task of the Government to do what they can to influence the attitude of Western Germany in favour of taking part in Western European defence. So far as I know, nothing has been done in that matter. Only the Government can tell us whether there have been any definite negotiations with the Western German Government and what is the present situation.
There is also the question of the French reaction to the rearming of Germany. We see in the Press that the French Government have laid it down that there are to be no German formations in the European Army, and that, if there are to be Germans, they must be broken up in small groups. Will the Germans accept this? If so, well and good. But I do not suppose for a second that they will accept it. Why should they? They are not likely to come to any kind of terms on that question which will belittle them in any degree.
Then, what about the Americans? If the French do not agree to the Germans being in the Atlantic Army, and the Americans insist, again I ask, what will be the position? Time is running out. That is what I wish to point out. We cannot go on shilly-shallying. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and the deputy-leader of the Opposition, my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). Everything depends upon our setting up in Europe a system of defence as quickly as we can in conjunction with the Americans. The best way in which that can be done is for us to get in closer touch with Washington. I should like to see the Prime Minister start tomorrow, if he could get ready in time, and I should like him to take with him my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) or my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington. I should like to see set up once again that direct personal contact between the leading
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statesmen and leaders of the Services of our two countries which brought such successful results in the last war.
A gesture of that kind, the fact that our leading statesmen were going to Washington, would of itself make our opponents throughout the world realise that we were as determined as we were in the last war to stand up to any aggression, and that we would work together in the common interests of the two great nations to which we belong and in the interests of the world at large. We cannot depend upon affairs being run as they are being run now by the United Nations Assembly. It is obvious that a body of that kind cannot successfully control and carry out all the minutiæ of strategy entailed in the conduct of war.
Mr. Harold Davies: Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell me whether he and his party are now saying that the United Nations organisation should not be the basis of our approach to these colossal problems? That is what I have gathered. What would take place if we accepted his proposals?
Sir C. Headlam: I can easily answer that question, and I am glad that the hon. Member asked it. The United Nations organisation serves a great and useful purpose. It should be the basis for the whole of the general policy of the world, but when we come to running a particular campaign or a state of affairs such as exists today in Korea, when there is a direct cleavage of opinion in the Assembly and in the Council itself, how can it act satisfactorily?
Mr. Davies: That makes idiotic our objections to Russia when we say that they ignore the United Nations.
Sir C. Headlam: I do not understand what the hon. Member means. I am merely explaining my point of view. We do not all think alike, and it is as well that everybody should express his opinion. My opinion is that, so long as the United Nations are an association of nations working together for a common cause, all should be well: but when the Assembly is split and aggression has been committed, it is not a suitable body to conduct a campaign. It is clear today that we have the Western nations, the democracies, on one side, and the other nations, the Communist nations, on the other, and the

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cleavage is so great that each must take its own line. Whether the peace of the world can be maintained depends upon the wisdom and good sense of the Governments of the Great Powers concerned.
Unless we are prepared to take the advice of the right hon. Member for Woodford and to get into close touch with the United States, to allow nothing to come between us to break that union, we are heading for a great deal of trouble, and the third world war which people talk about may become a reality.
5.35 p.m.
Mr. Logan: I have waited for almost 20 years before being called by the Chair to speak in a debate of this description. I have taken part in other debates. I have looked round this new Parliament and have seen budding aspirants for notoriety jumping up one after the other in an endeavour to speak, and I thought that I ought to say a few words. I will tell them that there is hope for those who do not catch Mr. Speaker's eye tonight. If they wait for 21 years, they have a chance. I may be asked what right I have to enter into this debate or to criticise in the House of Commons. I have a family of six, most of whom served in the last two wars, and I have 13 grandchildren. The people in my neighbourhood are mostly engaged in the service of the nation. I have lived among them for 70 years, and I think that I have the right to say that I am speaking on their behalf.
This is not an academic discussion. This is something more than a mere controversy between the different "isms" in the House of Commons. This is a realistic debate on a state of affairs which is very dangerous. There are times when it is necessary to call a spade a spade; there are times when silence is golden, and it is necessary not to speak too plainly about the evils which surround us. When I think of the tragedy of the last two wars, of the maimed and crippled and the destitution and the poverty caused in the industrial areas of the country, I view the approaching crisis with grave doubts.
I was very pleased yesterday when I heard the wonderfully tactful manner in which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden)
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approached this subject. The corridors of this House are like a listening gallery, and those who are silent are able to learn many things. I have learned many things, and it would be much better if those who had spoken had learned their lesson also. At times I have wondered what country I was in, and whether we were defending this country or some other nation; and I have had my doubts. I should like to hear more patriotic expressions about the defence of our own land rather than the talk about other lands to which one has only been on a Cook's visit.
I have been up the Danube, in Budapest and in Germany, but I still long for the Merseyside and a breath of the Atlantic rather than for the Continent. There I feel that I am at home where we have a liberty which is denied in other parts of the world. When we talk about liberty in its fullest sense, it is necessary to know what it stands for. There is liberty of conscience here. There is religious liberty here. Jews and Gentiles have the opportunity of free expression and equality in this House. Whether one is the son of a peer or the son of a docker, this House of Commons offers an opportunity second to none of the Parliaments of the world. I am proud to belong to a Parliament such as this.
I feel I have a responsibility to those whom I represent, to my God and to my country, because I am not able to accept the ideology of the Karl Marx philosophy. I want it to be understood in this House that I believe in freedom of speech, and in the right of other people to be able to express their opinions freely and honestly in regard to the things which they believe. Therefore, I stand here today, without apology, to say how I feel in regard to the threatened war.
There may be war; indeed, everything points to war. There were rumblings in 1914 that were a definite indication of what was coming. In preparation, the Fleet went out long before the storm broke, which showed that, in the minds of the counsellors of the nation, there was a clear idea of what was happening. We have talked about Rasputin and the Czar and also about the knout in Russia. We talk about a dynasty disappearing. Why, all round about us in our time, we see dynasties disappearing and a new orientation coming into operation.

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Mussolini disappeared, "Mein Kampf" Hitler passed out, and Alsace-Lorraine is now almost forgotten by the French nation.
When it comes to the question of the unification of the forces of Europe for the protection of mankind, however, we still have French doubts. The fear of a Napoleon is no longer in existence, but the fact remains that there are still doubts in the minds of the French nation, and there will be, until we can get confidence into the nations of Europe. It is no use discussing political matters until we have got co-operation, and I am unable to understand why, when we have these common difficulties which beset all the nations of Europe, there is no unity among them and why they do not pull together. Whether they like it or not, the mighty avalanche of Russia is creeping along, slowly but surely, and it will wipe them out if they do not quickly make up their minds which way they want to go.
We are living in a new generation and a new epoch. History is marking a time the like of which has never been known before. It is no use talking about peace and security today. Why, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, we were in a dream, but we were playing Rip van Winkle, and we are not in a dream today. In nine hours one can be in America, and the position today is that we are moving along at the rate of 600 miles an hour. We have annihilated space and brought Asia closer and closer to the people of this country, but it is no use our text-book man coming along here and making a little distribution of tracts in regard to the enormity of one Minister or another. We think we are facing reality and understanding, but we are not.
Palestine became a nation and India passed away as a mighty Empire. Where are we today? What is the use of talking about friends? We require all the friends we can get, because we cannot beat millions of people, and we have got to have security and confidence. We have also got to have faith, the sort of faith which I can only find in the English-speaking races. Although some discreditable remarks have been passed about America. I am fully convinced that, unless we get the help of America, and unless America is well insured by receiving our help—let us make no mistake about it—both nations will go down and a new
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civilisation will come, just as, many years ago, the Eastern nations of the world were overrun by savage tribes.
We are in a new epoch and at a critical stage, when men will have to begin to think. People read history, and history repeats itself. Napoleons, Hitlers and Mussolinis come and go, but the question for this country is: where are our people going, and what are they going to do? If they have no proper organisation and proper protection, if bombs are again to fall regularly night by night, as they did in the last war, the people of this country will wonder what their representatives have been doing, and, because of that, I want to see proper preparation made in a properly organised fashion. I am convinced that we are in danger, and any man who thinks his home is in danger tries to protect himself. He insures and sees that his home and family are properly protected.
The protection that I want to see is such as will enable my wife and children and all that I possess, along with others who live round about me, to enjoy proper security, backed by complete unity amongst our people. When I look upon those benches and hear this talk about Russia, it sickens me; honestly, it does. It sickens me to hear so much being said about Russia, and hardly any question of the security of our own homes. I say that people who first study and understand properly the history of their own country might then be able to understand something of the problems of other peoples elsewhere.
I wanted to speak my mind and I wanted to be honest with this House. The time may come when we may not want to speak too much, when action will have to be taken, and I want to see, before then, the resuscitation of the unity of the English-speaking peoples to preserve the benefits which they have received from time immemorial. I am delighted today to have found the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in agreement. and, to the Leader of the Opposition, I would use an Irish phrase—"Céad Míle Faílte"—which means "A thousand blessings on your birthday," which is most appropriate for today. I hope that all in this House will realise that the unity of the free world is now our most important problem.
5.50 p.m.
Brigadier Smyth: The hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. Logan) spoke with obvious sincerity and great eloquence, and I think he has stated a great many fundamental truths, with which I am in entire agreement.
When the Foreign Secretary opened the debate yesterday, he told us that, in view of the gravity of the situation and the essentially national character of this debate, he would welcome constructive suggestions regarding the situation which faces us today. I propose, in the short time I am going to address the House, to try to make some constructive suggestions directly related to the problem facing us. We all realise that the situation is a very grave one, and that it has deteriorated considerably since our last debate on foreign affairs. Therefore, I think this is a very appropriate moment to overhaul our machinery generally and to see if anything with regard to our foreign affairs organisation that we are doing at the moment can be improved.
As the Foreign Secretary said, it is difficult to know at the present time whether the fact that we are actually at war with the Communists in two or three parts of the world is an accident or in accordance with the general trend of events, or whether it is the result of a definite plan on the part of Russia, and possibly China, to draw the forces of the Western nations into the Far East so that they may be enabled to strike a vital blow at us in Europe. No one can say which of those alternatives is true, but, whichever it is, I suggest that our course of action should be entirely the same.
We should at all costs re-affirm our determination to prevent another world war from starting. War starts either by intent or by accident. We cannot, perhaps, prevent a war which starts by intent, but let us be sure that we prevent another world war starting by accident. Let us be very certain that we know what we are doing, and that Russia is left in no doubt of what we are doing and what we mean.
If we are going to prevent another world war then we must make it absolutely clear to the whole world what we stand for and what our object is, and then, possibly, the danger that we fear may never happen. I am all for nego-
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tiation at the highest level on an agreed plan. I think we should never give up the possibility of settling these high matters by negotiation at the very highest level, and I suggest that any form of what one might call "cloak and dagger" diplomacy is utterly out of date at the present time. If we are going to prevent a war, we must make our object clear. Above all, as I have said, for Heaven's sake do not let us drift into war, as I believe we are in danger of doing at the present moment.
It is important, I think, that we should not remain on the defensive as we are at present and be continually plugging the next hole that Russia or China creates. Until we can get away from that situation we shall not make any great progress towards the preservation of peace. There is a great need at the present moment for vital and dynamic British leadership. Nobody is going to suffer more from another world war than the British and the nations of Western Europe. We cannot afford to sit back in this situation.
Failure to avert another world war would mean for America that life would become extremely uncomfortable in a very troubled world, but for us in Britain it would mean the road to dusty death and an end to all our hopes of progress and the improvement of our conditions and standard of life generally. Personally, I do not believe that another world war is inevitable, but I feel very convinced that whether another world war comes upon us or not is entirely in our own hands. We can prevent it or we can make it a probability.
I should like now to point to one or two danger spots to world peace and to make some constructive suggestions in regard to them. I will take Korea first of all because, obviously, that is the gravest situation of all facing us at the moment. One or two speakers opposite, I think, have been very ungenerous to our American Allies and to General MacArthur in particular. When things are going badly for them it is the last occasion on which we should be overcritical. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) pointed out in his speech, the Americans have made a very great sacrifice in blood and money in our cause, and had it not been for their prompt action in Korea

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the situation might have been very much worse than it is even today.
However, I say very definitely that it is extremely important that the soldier should be the servant of the politician, and not the other way round. That has always been our policy. It was our policy throughout the last war, and I am quite certain it should continue to be so whether our troops are serving directly under a British commander or under a United Nations commander. The Foreign Secretary told us that General MacArthur was operating within a United Nations plan. I was very glad to hear that because I am quite certain that that is right, but I must say that I should have liked to see that United Nations directive which General MacArthur was given. I wonder whether Russia or China were clear about what we were doing, because I think that in this particular situation it was important that they should both have been clear.
I am not excusing the Chinese for the action they took in Korea or in Tibet, but I should like to say this from my own experience with regard to the feeling of tension that always exists on a land frontier, particularly at a time when a war is in progress on one side of the frontier. I remember very well that I once had the temerity to go and examine a part of the Italian-Yugoslav frontier at a time of considerable tension between those two countries. It was entirely my own funeral—or very nearly was—and although I was welcomed with open arms by the Italians when I arrived and by the Yugoslavs when I went over to them, the trouble was that I had to get back home through Italy, and I was extremely lucky not to end up in an Italian fortress.
But I did realise very strongly, and I have never forgotten, what tension does exist on a land frontier of that sort. I can imagine nothing more trying to any nation than to have a force of some 200,000 men advancing on the frontier, particularly, as in this case, where there are valuable hydro-electric plants on the Yalu River, about which the Chinese feel sensitive. I have a slight fellow-feeling for the Chinese because, in our time of trial at the beginning of the Burma campaign, they came to our assistance and rendered us very valuable help. We should not write them right off as completely
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hostile without making a considerable effort to see if they cannot be the reverse.
General MacArthur said two days ago, when this army of 200,000 Chinese came upon his right flank, "This is the beginning of a new war." I urge that either the Prime Minister, or another very senior Minister from the Government, should go to Washington as early as may be to make certain that our point of view is put across that this must be the beginning of a new peace.
Mr. Baxter: I agree, as I think so many of us agree, that the point my hon. and gallant Friend has raised is absolutely right but, if the Prime Minister went, should he not be accompanied by someone like my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), for instance, with his vast experience? Is not this a time, without forming a Coalition, when we should act together in foreign affairs?
Brigadier Smyth: I would agree entirely with that point, but that is a matter for the Prime Minister to decide. The Americans have General Marshall back as their Secretary of State for Defence, and I think we do feel the lack in America at the moment of another Field-Marshal Sir John Dill. I urge the Prime Minister to try and re-create another Field-Marshal Dill who could represent this country with General Marshall as Field-Marshal Dill did so effectively.
I want to make one point about Malaya. I feel that there is a distinct danger of our allowing the war in Malaya to become a habit, of allowing it just to go drifting along and to become an accepted thing. I have seen that happen on the North-West Frontier of India where it was generally accepted that there always was a war, and the war went on and no one thought of devising any means of stopping it. I am certain that any form of ulcer or festering sore is bad for the body politic, and it is certainly bad for the United Nations. We must make a great effort to settle this war in Malaya and not let it go drifting on. I do not know what General Briggs advised when he came home the other day, but. I hope the Prime Minister can tell us something about Malaya which, as far as I have heard, has not been mentioned

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at all in this debate. It is a country which is important to us, and we ought to know what is happening there.
I want to turn now to India and Pakistan, which were mentioned most effectively yesterday from the other side of the House by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid), who made a most excellent and constructive speech about parts of the world of which, obviously, he had great experience. I feel that this area of South-East Asia, which was an area of strength, is now an area of very great weakness. It is an area of weakness because India and Pakistan have their eyes so rivetted on their quarrel over Kashmir that they simply cannot get away from that particular locality. As we all know, they have appealed to the United Nations in vain. Neither Mr. Nehru nor the Prime Minister of Pakistan is prepared to give way an inch. Here, again, I urge the Prime Minister that His Majesty's Government should try and take a hand, because I believe that we are the only people that could do so.
Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that the Prime Minister of Pakistan has invited the Prime Minister of India to go to meet him to discuss these matters, and that the Prime Minister of India has accepted that invitation? Should we not give all the encouragment possible to the solution of the problem between those two Prime Ministers?
Brigadier Smyth: I am grateful for that interruption, but I am also aware that that has happened three or four times before, and similar notes have been exchanged.
Mr. Fenner Brockway: Notes!
Brigadier Smyth: Well, nothing whatever comes of these exchanges of notes and meetings, and, just as I have said that Malaya has become a habit, I am afraid that, if we do not watch it, the difference of opinion over Kashmir will also become a habit. There is no doubt that if the Foreign Secretary could resolve that quarrel, which is a very lamentable one between parts of the Commonwealth, it would mean an immediate accession of strength to our cause of possibly four divisions.
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I am certain that, had there not been this difference of opinion between India and Pakistan today, the war in Korea would never have started. We should remember that, before the war, there would be always three or four divisions in India, ready to move at short notice to put out a small cinder, which was all the war in Korea appeared to be right at its very beginning. It is very important that we should pay attention to this particular area, because, if we do not, the Russians will; and we can see that it was as a direct result of the weakness in this area that the Communist invasion of Tibet and the trouble in Nepal came about.
On the subject of Egypt and Africa, we welcome the Foreign Secretary's very firm statement of policy. A great deal has been said about that, and I am not going to say any more. But I want to look further south and repeat words I have said several times in this House. When are we going to try and raise one or two colonial divisions, as we did in the war, to help out our British manpower? I am absolutely certain that, if a war came upon us, the first thing we should do would be to raise two East and West African divisions, as we did in the last war. But it is more important to do these things to save a war from ever happening than it is to do them to help us win a war when we have one.
Lastly, I come to Europe, about which so much has already been said. It is still the real powder magazine of this situation. It is regrettable that the Western Powers should be talking still about what they are going to do in Western Europe with, as far as I know, not a single division having started to form. I urge very strongly that the time is not on our side and that we should try and cut out the conferences and discussions and get started with the formation of an Atlantic Pact Defence force in Western Europe. I agree entirely with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington said with regard to a European Army. I do not think we should quibble too much about what form it should take. If the French and Germans want it to be a European Army within an Atlantic Army we should try and meet their wishes and not try to force them into an organisation they do not like. The great thing is to get started with it.

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As to the German contribution, I feel very strongly that we cannot keep Germany down for ever. There obviously must come a time when we shall bring Germany back and give her a certain amount of self-respect if we want her to contribute to our cause. I do not think we can do it by force. We can do it only by good will, and I think that so long as we do not allow Germany any general staff, an air force, weapons and munitions supply, we could exercise all the control that we want. If we do not enlist Germany to our aid, I am absolutely certain that we shall be unable to defend Western Europe effectively. The essence of European defence is speed, and I think our slogan might be taken from Macbeth:
"If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly."
I am certain that 20 divisions in Western Europe by the end of 1952 would he worth 30 divisions ready by 1953.
Finally, I believe that another world war is not inevitable, and I believe that there is a great danger of our drifting into war haphazard and of a war coming upon us by accident. I believe there is a greater danger of that happening at the moment than of a war by intent. I would urge upon the Prime Minister to be completely frank with the British people about the gravity of the danger which is facing the country today. If he will do this and do his utmost to bind tighter the ties of Empire, America and Western Europe within the framework of the United Nations—then I think we can face with equanimity and confidence whatever may befall.
6.12 p.m.
Mr. Tomney: I think that all who have spoken in this debate so far have spoken with a full realisation of the gravity of the situation. The contribution by the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Brigadier Smyth) was especially welcome, chiefly because he has a distinguished Army record, and I think it will be agreed that he has done very little sabre rattling. I was a little afraid when he mentioned Macbeth, and when he left that point quickly he did so to my satisfaction.
The issue at stake is perhaps wider than one of foreign policy. If the decisions which have to be taken in the next few weeks are decisions of an irrevocable
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nature, then we are indeed discussing the whole future of humanity, and in this respect we must realise that the future of humanity is at stake. I know that the Chinese action in Korea has aggravated the situation which at one time gave rise to hopes that a settlement would be quickly made. To what extent there is justification in the Chinese fears of the possible violation of her frontier and the hydro-electric installations on the Yalu river, what justification there is in her fears of the United Nations enforcement of measures which might be detrimental to her national life, none of us at this stage can tell. But it has been realised on both sides of the House during the last two days that the position should have been stabilised at the "wasp line" and negotiations entered into and a possible agreement reached.
I do not take the view that the Chinese people as such are Communists, or, for that matter, that the Russian people as such are Communists. I think they have followed the first true lead that has been given to them to drag them out of their abject poverty. I believe that the matriarchal, patriarchal and ancestral systems which are inherent in all Chinese, are so ingrained that eventually they will not lend themselves to a political system of Communism. The decision which the Western democracies must take is a big one, and it is whether the present Chinese Communist policy is one of national sovereignty or a policy of internationalism. If, as I am led to believe, the Chinese are concerned only with building up their economy and their life within their own borders, there are great hopes that peace will be established throughout the whole of the world for decades.
I am convinced that Stalin will not attempt any adventures against the Western democracies unless he is absolutly sure of the might of China's 450 million people behind him. It is to this end that our efforts in the diplomatic field should be furthered. There is, I think, a great deal to be done in deciding whether China can be won permanently to the side of world peace by direct diplomatic negotiations. The Foreign Secretary in his speech asked for suggestions and said that he would give them favourable consideration. I believe that what is desired is a full-scale diplomatic intervention led chiefly by the British Foreign Office, in

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an effort—we must face this—to divide Communist China from Soviet Russia. I think it can be done if the job is tackled in the right way.
As far as I know, there are two conflicting leaders of China. One we know, Mao Tse-tung, is in the foreground, though it is difficult to find people who have had contact with this man or who know him personally. I am informed, however, from two sources that he is a man who is willing to listen to reason. The other personality is a man who keeps in the background and is, perhaps, more in line with Soviet policy than Mao Tse-tung; I refer to the Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party. Stalin cannot afford another Tito on his Eastern flank, and I am sure that whatever efforts we make in the diplomatic field, we should make them with a view to combating Stalin's grand strategy.
I am convinced that the decisions which were taken at Yalta, for instance, had a direct bearing on the position in which we are today. At the Yalta conference Stalin made strenuous efforts to exclude the French representatives. At that time, and later when the war had finished, there was a demand by the then French Government for ships to take French troops to the Far East. However, those ships were not sent, and in consequence, in Indo-China there was created a vacuum which the Communist Party in China are trying to fill at this moment. The foundation of Stalin's policy was laid there. We have to be sure that we are not driven to one side of the world, leaving the other side of the world unprotected.
The resources of the free world in materials and manpower can contain Stalin's strategy at any time provided that he has not unlimited manpower for cannon fodder. He does not possess one quarter of the resources of the free world. We have to marshal these forces and put them in strategic places as quickly as possible, and, on the broad plan of the whole world, we are not yet quite ready for that. Stalin is deficient in one commodity in particular—a commodity which is vital to war operations—and he is particularly vulnerable in this commodity within his own borders. I refer, of course, to oil, and, in spite of what was said by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), pointing to Europe
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and Germany as a possible danger spot, I think we must watch very carefully any adventures in connection with the Middle East oil fields. Such adventures have been tried once and have failed If they are tried again they must fail again.
We must use all the energy and power we have to reach a settlement but, if no settlement is possible, we must be prepared to face the alternative. I suggest that the alternative we have to face first, if we fail, is what kind of a front is to be established in the Far East. In this connection we cannot regard Korea as a front in itself; it must be linked with Indo-China and Malaya, because if we are forced out of those valuable strategic areas, which are important to us for trading purposes, the Western democracies will begin to feel the pinch in their standards of life.
It may be that some American political leaders have had a fuller realisation than we have had of some of these factors, but even now it is not too late to recoup the position if we set about it with energy. Whatever efforts can be made by the Foreign Office, the Diplomatic Corps and, should they fail, the united will of the free peoples, those efforts must be made.
6.23 p.m.
Mr. Drayson: I want to speak tonight about Yugoslavia which, as far as I am aware, has not yet been mentioned in the debate. There was a time during the Foreign Secretary's speech when, referring to the position in the Middle East and Europe, he said there was still a piece to be fitted into the plan, and I thought he was referring to Yugoslavia. In fact, he was about to refer to Egypt. This afternoon the Under-Secretary of State, in dealing with Europe, mentioned regional groupings, and once more I hoped he would have something to say about what part he thought it might be possible for Yugoslavia to play in such a group, were she willing to do so.
Anybody who looks at the map of Europe cannot but be impressed by the important position which Yugoslavia occupies. If we consider a chain from Turkey and the Balkans, and if we look at a map, we must be somewhat discomforted to think there is a link missing in that chain—a link which has not yet been included. I should like to know

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from the Government what is their attitude towards Yugoslavia at present. Do they consider that she can play an important part in the present European set up?
The position in Yugoslavia is something like this. From 1945 to 1948 she was virtually occupied, for her national affairs were dictated by Moscow, but in June, 1948, through the Cominform resolution, Moscow expelled Marshal Tito and his country from the Cominform group. Since then, Yugoslavia has been trying in the economic field to put into operation a five-year plan. This has proved disastrous to the national economy, of course, and, although I do not know whether there is any substantial foundation for this, it seems to me that it can be said that this five-year plan was imposed on Marshal Tito's Government by the economic experts of Moscow and that the Yugoslavs may now suggest that that was done with a view to ruining the country completely, so that it could more easily be taken over at some later stage.
The plan has been published in great detail and anybody who looks at it must realise immediately how impossible it was ever to fulfil it. I believe the sympathy of the House would go to any government official who was to be responsible for producing 20,000 typewriters in a year or to the department whose duty it was to deal with the mass production of cinematograph apparatus. To expect a country like Yugoslavia, with very little industry at any time, to reach those targets after six years of war and occupation was ridiculous. The task was quite impossible of achievement. As a result of all this, the country finds herself in considerable economic difficulties. Yugoslavia is also beset by a drought resulting in an extremely poor harvest.
Looking at the natural resources of Yugoslavia, one realises that she could be one of the richest countries in Europe and, had development been intensified on proper lines since the war, the people of Yugoslavia could be enjoying a standard of living hitherto not experienced in the Balkans. Yugoslavia has always been a great food producer and yet the world has been in a period when food was particularly scarce. The Yugoslays have some of the finest base metal mineral mines and deposits in the whole of
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Europe and, possibly, in the world, and before the war the French, the British and other nationals played a great part in developing those natural resources for the benefit of Yugoslavia. They have considerable areas covered by timber—and this in a time when all the world has been calling for timber in order to rebuild what was damaged by the war. Here again, as we have done in the past, we could have helped them considerably in the development of their timber resources.
Yugoslavia is a vast agricultural country and there was a possibility of her supplying food to the rest of Europe, but the Government have disorganised their agriculture to a very considerable extent by insisting on such a measure of collectivisation. Here I should like to recall the advice given by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) to Marshal Tito at Naples in 1944, as recorded by the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. F. Maclean). This is what the right hon. Gentleman said:
"My friend Marshal Stalin told me that his battle with the peasants had been a more perilous and formidable undertaking than the battle for Stalingrad. I hope that you, Marshal, will think twice before you join such a battle with your sturdy Serbian peasants."
Well, unfortunately, that advice given in 1944 was not taken; but I believe that there are signs that the present action in regard to collectivisation is being modified.
If a government of a country tries to meddle with the traditional methods of agriculture in that country it is bound to lead to difficulties. Certainly there is room in Yugoslavia for adopting modern methods, but these have to be adopted gradually. There is certainly room for mechanisation, and the supply of tractors is an urgent need, but when one looks at some of the vast plains in that part of the world one must realise that there is the grave danger that mechanisation could lead to what I think is known as prairie farming, which leads to serious problems such as soil erosion unless very carefully managed.
I think that one thing. at least, about which we would all agree when considering Yugoslav action from June, 1948, onwards, is that Marshal Tito has shown considerable courage in breaking with the Cominform bloc. The promises made by

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Russia to Yugoslavia after the war as to the amount of aid she was going to give her obviously were not kept, and the Russians exploited the country to a considerable extent. Whatever we may think of individuals in that country at the present moment, one thing we cannot disguise is that they are, above all, patriots, and I always prefer to consider a country by its peoples rather than by members of its government. I think that that sometimes applies to countries nearer at home.
Mr. Harold Davies: That applies to the Russian peoples, too.
Mr. Drayson: I was just coming to that point. Some while ago, after I had visited Yugoslavia, on one or two occasions I allowed my name to be associated with an organisation for promoting friendship between the peoples of Great Britain and the peoples of Yugoslavia, and in doing that I wrote that my desire for friendship with the Yugoslavs was no less than my desire for friendship with the peoples of America, the U.S.S.R. France and Spain. I think the hon. Gentleman will understand what I mean when I say I like to dissociate countries from their governments, because they cannot be considered wholly responsible for them, especially when they have not had the opportunity of free and unfettered elections.
What has been noticeable in the last few months has been the gradual change in the attitude of the rulers of Yugoslavia. One of the first things we have to notice is Marshal Tito's speech attacking bureaucracy and centralisation and praising the Western world. Only two weeks ago the Marshal is reported to have said, when talking about trade relations with other countries:
"As regards our trade relations with the Western countries, they look upon us as an equal partner. The capitalist system in those countries does not bother us in our economic relations with them, and I must say that we often get better conditions from those countries for the purchase of various goods than we did from the eastern countries."
They are putting into operation now, I believe, at the same time the denationalisation of many of the small undertakings which were taken over in 1945.
What is clear also, whatever the personal feelings of Members of this House may be, is that Yugoslavia at the
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present moment cannot stand alone. She has pointed out her economic plight to the Western countries, particularly her difficulties arising out of the food shortage and the drought this last summer. Only the other day it was announced that we in Great Britain were prepared to give her credits to the extent of £3,000,000 for the purpose of buying food. At the same time the United States made available to Yugoslavia the sum of 30 million dollars. I see in today's paper that President Truman yesterday asked Congress to vote a further 38 million dollars for economic aid to Yugoslavia. When I see in the paper today that President Truman is considering this problem and that he put it before Congress yesterday, I ask whether it is not time that our own Government should make some pronouncement as to what their attitude is towards Yugoslavia at the present time.
This money is largely, if not entirely, to be used for the purchase of food. The Yugoslav Government have indicated they would be quite happy to have observers see that this food is properly distributed. The American Ambassador in Belgrade, on the occasion of the arrival of the first consignment of food, said:
"The only condition is that your nation remains free and independent, strong enough to control your destinies and to prevent anybody from imposing conditions upon you."
Again I should like to know whether our Government have any intention of helping Yugoslavia to maintain this independence which she herself is so anxious to maintain.
We are all thinking today very largely of military matters, but it is important, even with the war clouds that appear to be gathering, that we should devote a little time to the future economic development of Yugoslavia. She has indicated that she is anxious to arrive at new formulae whereby her natural resources can be developed with the assistance of the countries of the West. I wonder myself whether they have not left it a little too late, and whether, in fact, the countries of the West are in a position to co-operate substantially in the economic field, when they are themselves faced with a rearmament programme, because financial aid is of little advantage unless it results in the immediate delivery of the goods and machinery which are needed for economic development.

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The sources of financial aid up to now have been the World Bank, the Import Export Bank, and the E.C.A. funds, all of which have contributed over the last few months. I should like to see private concerns taking an interest in developments in Yugoslavia, but is is very difficult for them to do so, and certainly I myself should not like to risk shareholders' money in that part of the world. However, I should like to make this suggestion, that if those organisations that I have referred to are considering making advances for economic development they should say something like this, "For every dollar that we are prepared to give we should like to see private enterprise put in a dollar or a pound alongside."
If we do that, instead of channelling all the aid and financial assistance through one channel—may be the national bank or exchequer of the country—we shall put a number of different industrial concerns in touch with their opposite numbers in the country in question. The more that people talk to each other about their respective problems the more chances there are of definite understandings being reached, not only on commercial matters but on many others as well.
In asking the Government their attitude at the present moment, one cannot help remembering what they did when a seat became available upon the Security Council and had to be filled from Eastern Europe. On that occasion they voted for the inclusion of Czechoslovakia and disregarded the claims of Yugoslavia, although it was after that country had split from the Cominform. That is why I ask the Government what their policy is today.
When we turn to consider the position in the military field, we cannot help realising that Yugoslavia would be in a position, if she so wished, to provide at the present time the Western democracies in Europe with at least 10 divisions of good troops, even though they may lack equipment. I ask the House to consider whether we can completely disregard the possibility of having those men on our side in the near future. This is a time when the Government should be prepared to exert considerable effort to persuade that country to come to a definite decision about its future. I should like to see us, out of our slender resources, going some way to match the contribution that has
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been made to Yugoslavia in the last few weeks by the United States.
I do not want to sit down before I have said a word or two about the situation elsewhere. I should like the House to consider a point in connection with the present situation in Korea. I believe that when General MacArthur said that fighting would be over very soon and that the men would be back for Christmas, that was a real possibility, provided that the Chinese did not enter into the battle. He had no necessary reason at that time for supposing that they would perpetrate that act of aggression. The situation that now confronts the United Nations forces is a totally different one, and one that we are all having to consider at the present moment. It is in Europe, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford said, that the mortal danger lies.
There are countries which have not been mentioned in the debate. I should like the House to consider the position of Norway and Denmark, which would undoubtedly be coveted as submarine bases for the Soviet fleet in the event of another war. I want to finish by endorsing what has been said from both sides of the House, that the future depends upon the co-operation and the mutual understanding between this country and the United States. I hope that nothing will be done to weaken those ties in the future.
6.44 p.m.
Mr. Driberg: Grave events appear to be overtaking the relatively tranquil and conciliatory speeches that have been made in this debate, notably from both the Opposition and the Government Front Benches. I assume that most hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will already have seen, either on the tape or in the evening newspapers, reports of President Truman's Press conference today, in which he is reported to have said that the use of the atom bomb in Korea is under active consideration, and that, in certain circumstances, subject to the approval of the United Nations, General MacArthur would have complete freedom to extend hostilities into Manchuria.
It may be that there is some exaggeration or misinterpretation in the Press headlines of what was said. As a journalist. I can imagine so well how a reporter might have asked President

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Truman: "Are you considering the use of the atom bomb?" and that he may have replied: "Yes, it always has been under consideration"—which, of course, would have quite a different emphasis and would not imply any new policy or change of outlook. None the less, if there has been an exaggeration or misinterpretation, I hope that some explanation to that effect is being put out pretty quickly from the White House, and I hope that the Prime Minister tonight, when he replies, will have something to say about it, because a great deal of harm has already been done and a great deal of alarm caused. I hope that the voice of sanity and moderation, which has been raised, as I say, from both Front Benches in this House, will be heard in America.
I was extremely interested in both the speeches with which this debate opened yesterday. I welcomed particularly the strongly and unequivocally pacific tone of the Foreign Secretary's references to China. I also welcomed the reassurance and clarification—if it was a clarification—by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State this afternoon about the Government's present position: that we do want to see China in the Security Council now. Although I was greatly interested and impressed by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), I rather differed from him when he argued that the conduct of China was a reason for not admitting her to the Security Council at present. After all, as the Foreign Secretary himself said yesterday, the action taken by the Chinese may be only
"to safeguard their own interests in the frontier area." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November. 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1172.]
Secondly, I noticed the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington nodding his head in emphatic assent last evening when my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) was defining the function and purpose of U.N.O. and was saying that it was not
"an instrument to spread democracy"
but
"an attempt of the nations to organise peace."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1280.]
—in fact, to remove the clash of ideologies and interests from the battlefield to the conference table.
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I would suggest with respect that this, idea that if a nation is behaving badly it should not be in the Security Council, is based upon a false analogy with a club. "Why should people be allowed to join the club if they are breaking its rules?" As I see it, U.N.O. is not like a club. A club is an association of like-minded people. U.N.O. is deliberately an association of differently-minded people and nations. It is all the more urgent, therefore, that we should continue to press for the inclusion of China at the present time.
Another speculation by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was this He wondered whether China was suffering from
"some imaginary fear of an attack on Chinese territory."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1172.]
We may know and believe in this House that that fear is imaginary, but I am afraid that it will have been made to seem more real to the Chinese by the statements made at the presidential Press conference today. It is rather difficult for us, and still more difficult for the Americans, who have not had the experience of physical invasion of their country, to understand Chinese suspicions and apprehensions. After all, the Chinese have been knocked about a good deal in the last 20 years.
Only this afternoon, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition sail that it is useful sometimes "to try to put oneself in the position of the other party." It is useful, but it is extremely difficult to do so in the case of China. One can surely, however, understand that such suspicions are aggravated by the action of the Supreme Commander himself—no doubt with the authority of the United Nations—in excluding China, and the Chinese Government which we recognise, from the island of Formosa. Friendly relations are still maintained with the discredited, defeated Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek in that island of Formosa, which, in 1943 explicitly and in 1945 implicitly, we agreed was legitimately Chinese territory. We should not under-estimate the psychological effect of the Formosa situation on China at the present time. That, I think, is shown by the reports of what the Chinese delegates who have just arrived at Lake Success said on their first day there.

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The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington also dealt with what may be called the Titoist approach to China, and I personally am inclined to agree with him that there is a good deal of wishful thinking in that approach. I think, quite frankly, that it is also rather an impertinence that we should suggest such a development to China. China will decide her own development, and—it seems an appropriate word—her own orientation in the light of her own needs and interests. However, one can, I think, say that any further delay in the admission of the new Chinese Government to the Security Council would only tend to have the opposite effect to that which the right hon. Gentleman himself desires to produce. It would tend to drive China even more firmly and closely into alliance and alignment with Moscow. It may well be that there are two views about this matter within the Chinese Government itself; or two different approaches.
I wonder also whether the right hon. Gentleman, when he was discussing this aspect of the problem, had considered the interesting speculation indulged in at Lake Success recently by the Minister of State: the obviously purely speculative theory that it might well be Russia which has egged on China to what seem to us to be excesses and aggressions in Tibet and Korea, precisely because, despite all the propaganda, Russia really does not want China in the Security Council; and that Russia would prefer to insulate China altogether from the Western Powers. It is at least an arguable theory.
It is certainly not possible—I agree with the right hon. Gentleman—to regard any Titoist trend as being immediate practical politics in China. On the other hand, I would like to quote an interesting contrast which was made to me a few months ago, before the Tibet incident, by Mr. Nehru, the Prime Minister of India—a contrast between China and the Eastern European countries within the Soviet sphere of influence. Mr. Nehru pointed out that in almost every way they are completely different from China. They are mostly small: China is very big. They are, geographically, fairly near the Soviet Union: China is pretty far from Moscow. They are mostly Slav: China is most emphatically not Slavonic, but very Chinese. Finally, they have little or no sense of unity with Western
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Europe; whereas China, although it would be going too far to say that there is a real sense of Asiatic unity, at least shares certain common reactions with most of the other Asiatic nations—reactions which are largely based on their common experience of colonialism.
With all this in mind, it would be disastrous if we were to acquiesce in any action which would make more likely an extension of the war from Korea to China. If we start from the basis of "no war with China" we must then agree to negotiate; that is the only alternative. We can surely negotiate more persuasively and with more chance of success if China is within the Security Council, and if, meanwhile, we refrain from unnecessary provocation. There is an appalling danger that the hysteria prevalent in some Senatorial and Congressional quarters in America may have its effect on the American authorities and, therefore, on the United Nations. There is this pressure, for instance, for bombing the supply bases in Manchuria. I hope that the influence of His Majesty's Government will be used against that pressure. Obviously, as indeed President Truman made clear today, anything of that kind would be a high-level political and not a local military decision—one of those decisions in which the Supreme Commander would have what the Foreign Secretary yesterday called "appropriate consultation" with the United Nations.
I was a little surprised by my right hon. Friend's emphatic declaration that there had been such consultation in, one gathered, every case. I wonder whether the consultation has occasionally been retrospective? I wonder, for instance, whether there was any consultation—there could hardly have been—before the Supreme Commander issued his notorious statement on Formosa, which President Truman repudiated even before it was published. Was there any consultation before the ceremonious reinstallation of President Syngman Rhee at Seoul, which led to a good deal of subsequent embarrassment for the United Nations? Was there any consultation, finally, before the issue of General MacArthur's two recent communiqués about Chinese aggression, which were essentially political in tone rather than purely military?
Did His Majesty's Government, after assenting to the crossing of the 38th

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Parallel, agree also to the whole northward sweep—to, as it now seems, this mad rush to the frontier, accompanied as it was by perhaps the most hubristic Famous Last Words in modern history: "Tell the boys when they reach the Yalu River they can all come back; they will eat their Christmas dinners at home"?
Mr. Keeling: The hon. Gentleman said that we should not bomb Chinese supply bases. Would he say that we should not bomb Chinese aerodromes from which bombers were actually bombing our own men?
Mr. Driberg: We should not have gone so far north. That is the answer. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes, but what is to be done now? What is the answer now?] The answer now is the answer which, I was very glad to hear, was given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington yesterday and, indeed, by the Leader of the Opposition today: that is to say, consolidation at what one called the "waist" and the other called the. "neck"; I think that it is usually called the "waist." Whether that now means withdrawal to the "waist," or whether we are back there already, I would not know, not having studied the latest news: but it may be that some withdrawal to that line will be necessary.
Since I have been saying these somewhat critical things, let me say that I agree with many of the tributes that have been paid to the generalship of General MacArthur. The Inchon landing was an audacious amphibious operation, executed most brilliantly. Under his leadership some of the American forces, notably the Marines, have fought with magnificent courage. But politics apart—and he is a political general: in Tokio one feels that enemy No. 1 is not the Communists but the Truman administration—I know that many hon. Members better equipped than I to criticise are questioning the wisdom of the strategy of the last few weeks.
I should like to read a sentence or two from a letter I received about a week ago from a British war correspondent in Korea. He is actually writing from Tokio; war correspondents commute, as it were, every few days or weeks, between Tokio, where G.H.Q. is situated, and Korea. The letter is dated 10th November, and this is what he says:
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"This last phase, since Pyongyang, has been a complete fiasco. As you know, General Almond has X Corps on the east coast, and Walker's VIII Army, with Milburn as I Corps commander, is on the central and west sectors. And"—
if I may be pardoned from quoting the word, Mr. Speaker—
"there's a bloody great gap in between. I gather that co-ordination is a G.H.Q. affair, but when you ask exactly what Almond is continuing to advance for against nothing up the east coast, when what's obviously called for is a consolidation of the gap, you just get a shrug of the shoulders out of the spokesmen here. Private enterprise can he carried too far—especially with elements of four Communist Chinese armies (army corps), already in Korea."
That was written three weeks ago. It was pretty evident, even then, that things were not going at all well with this particular phase of the campaign: it was evident, at least, to some British war correspondents. We have therefore some right to be a bit concerned about the military as well as the political progress of the war.
Surely the co-ordination in this northward sweep, as indicated in that letter, and also the Intelligence which should have been behind it, must have been lamentably defective. Syngman Rhee himself, incidentally, has estimated that there are as many as 40,000 Communist guerrillas still active, or potentially active, south of the 38th Parallel. That is going to be quite a job to take care of. Therefore, the only policy for us to press for—I hope that the Prime Minister, if he can, will give us some indication of his view about this—is for this withdrawal to the "waist": the holding of that strategically more practicable line and, simultaneously, negotiation for peace. There is no other way to convince the Chinese of our sincerity.
I heard with great interest last night the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne, whose view was that we should have stopped at the 38th Parallel. I think that he made a very strong moral and juridical case, but I personally think that it would have been tactically impossible to stop at the 38th Parallel; the "waist" is a commonsense compromise between the 38th Parallel and the actual frontier. We should insist on this. We still have some right to insist, even though we only have small forces there. We should even go

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so far as to say that we are not prepared to allow British troops to be used in any extension of the war outside Korea arising from events on the blame and responsibility for which the Foreign Secretary himself has told the House he is still keeping an open mind.
Since our troops are in this dangerous situation in that appalling climate, fighting their way out of encirclement or to help others already cut off, since constituents of every hon. Member. National Service men of 19 as well as Regulars, are there, we have a right and a responsibility to speak up on their behalf, and to insist that their blood and sweat shall not be wasted through military incompetence or political ineptitude.
Furthermore, since they are supposed to be fighting for the establishment of the rule of law among the nations, we have a right to expect that the Supreme Commander himself shall be amenable, as my right hon. Friend says that he has always been in the past, to the directions of the United Nations, whose servant he is supposed to be, and that he will not, in this most dangerous crisis, initiate any further adventures likely to endanger peace.
We have a right also to say that prisoners and civilian suspects in South Korea shall not be treated in a way contrary to civilised conceptions of justice and humanity. I was glad to hear, on this issue, an assurance from the Foreign Office spokesman last week, that there have been representations to the South Korean Government and that in response assurances have been received. I sincerely hope that the mass shootings and all the rest of the things which have been described quite accurately in some newspapers—and which led, incidentally, to the dismissal of the editor of "Picture Post," because he wanted to publish a true report and photographs of them—have now been stopped.
As I think some hon. Members may be aware, I had the privilege recently of spending some little time in Korea. I brought back with me two abiding impressions, both very simple and, I fear, very trite. The first was of the superb courage and cheerfulness and efficiency of our own forces, the Argylls, the Middlesex, the Far East Flying Boat Wing of the R.A.F., and particularly perhaps the Royal Marine Commando, fighting now
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far inland, an American tribute to whom was quoted a few nights ago by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty. It was in that particular unit that one saw Anglo-American cooperation functioning most satisfactorily, efficiently and harmoniously, at all levels.
My second impression is equally trite, but not so happy—an impression of the misery and poverty of the ordinary people of Korea, and of the terrible impact on them of the process which we call liberation. It is very difficult to communicate with them. Indeed, one great practical administrative difficulty, especially in North Korea now, is due to the fact that very few Americans or British people know the Korean language; this necessarily means, for purposes of administration, that we have to use possibly unsatisfactory Koreans. That is a very difficult dilemma.
It is difficult, as I say, to communicate with them. As one tears along the dusty or muddy roads, in a jeep or a truck, one sees the tragically familiar scene of little groups of peasant refugees by the roadside, staring mutely and uncomprehendingly at the great apparatus of modern war rolling past and over them, shelled or evacuated from their thatched hovels, or still working in the green paddy-fields while a 155 gun blasts away within a few yards of them. The Foreign Secretary's pre-occupation with the economic uplifting of backward peoples is well-known. It is also a well-known and accepted fact, whether one agrees with the policy or not, that one of the strongest appeals that the Communists make to millions of peasants in Asia, is their rapid and vigorous agrarian reforms and re-distribution of land. They have done it in China; they did it in North Korea. It is at least as important as the organisation of free elections that we should give the people of Korea some hope of economic security and social advancement, and assure them that they are not to be delivered back to the great money-lenders, for instance, whose continued domination has been one of the many unpleasant characteristics of the Syngman Rhee régime.
I apologise for taking up so much of the time of the House, but I wanted to get some of these things off my chest. I believe that unless the British people and their Government really take a firm stand

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about this business of spreading the war from Korea to China, even to the extent of risking a row between friends—and we are firm friends and allies of the Americans—all may well be lost, both for ourselves and for the Americans, in the ultimate calamity of mankind
7.10 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Nutting: The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) quoted a speech made last night in this debate by the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) in support of his plea that the present de facto Chinese Government should be a member of the Security Council. In quoting the hon. Member's speech, the hon. Member for Maldon said that he had rightly reminded the House that:
"The United Nations organisation is not, as some people seem almost subconsciously to think, a weapon in the cold war or an instrument to spread democracy. It is nothing of the kind. It is an attempt of the nations to organise peace …"
I notice that the hon. Gentleman stopped there and did not continue to quote from his hon. Friend. I wish he had continued the quotation, because this is what the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne went on to say:
"The test"—
that is to say the test of the membership of the United Nations—
"was that whoever shoots is wrong, whoever advances over a frontier is wrong."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1280.]
I feel that the hon. Member, who is not in his place, would not have said that the Chinese should be members of the Security Council after shooting in Korea and after advancing, as they have done, over the Tibetan frontier.
Mr. Driberg: I do not know if I need speak on behalf of my hon. Friend, but I presume that what he meant when he said that whoever shoots is wrong was that aggressive war is wrong. The quotation that I gave from yesterday's speech by the Foreign Secretary indicates that the actual reasons for the Chinese action are still obscure, and that we have got to keep an open mind on them.
Mr. Nutting: That does not answer the point which I also made and was also covered by the speech of the hon. Mem-
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ber for Nelson and Colne when he said that whoever advances over a frontier is wrong Can the hon. Gentleman deny, even as Mr. Patel has said, that they have advanced brutally and by naked aggression over the Tibetian frontier?
Mr. Henry Usborne: is the hon. Gentleman inferring that any nation which is regarded as an aggressor, should automatically be thrown out of the United Nations?
Mr. Nutting: All that I am saying is that I do not believe that the Chinese, after their conduct both in Tibet and Korea, should be admitted to the Security Council of the United Nations since they are not prepared to obey the obligations of the Charter of the United Nations upon which the Security Council stands. I sincerely hope that the Prime Minister, when he winds up this debate tonight, will tell us exactly where the British Government stand in this matter of China being a member of the Security Council.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) in his speech yesterday, speaking upon this subject of China being in the Security Council said:
"If the Government take that view—and I certainly cannot quarrel with it in view of what has happened—I cannot see how, despite unforgivable and inexcusable conduct in the international sphere, we can at this moment invite China to join us in maintaining peace and order in the world."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1185.]
My right hon. Friend was clearly inviting some Government comment upon his statement. No member of the Government Front Bench got up to intervene, and I should have thought that we might have inferred from that that the Government's view was that China should not be a member.
Mr. Driberg Mr. Driberg rose—
Mr. Nutting: No, I will not give way again.
Mr. Driberg: Did the hon. Gentleman not hear the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs this afternoon?
Mr. Nutting: I am coming to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the hon. Gentleman will bide his time in patience. This afternoon the Under-Secretary said that all along it has been the view of His Majesty's Government that the

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de facto Chinese Government should be a member of the Security Council. He then went on to say something which I thought was a little strange after this most categorical statement. I think I am quoting the sense of his observation correctly when I say that when he was asked whether His Majesty's Government would vote for China being a member of the Security Council, he said that the question of voting did not arise at the present time.
What are we to infer from that statement, which, the hon. Gentleman must agree, seems rather contradictory to his earlier remark? Are we to assume that the Government have no view whatsoever in the matter? Are we to assume that the policy which will be followed by the British Government will be an undignified neutrality, rather like what was done at U.N.O. in regard to sending Ambassadors to Spain? What exactly is the view of His Majesty's Government? I hope we shall get a more satisfactory explanation from the Prime Minister than we have had from the Under-Secretary.
In common with every hon. Member of this House, I am deeply disturbed about the foreign situation. Wherever we look the outlook is bleak and threatening. I hope, therefore, that the House will bear with me if I have one or two critical but constructive remarks to make as to the way in which we are meeting and should meet the dangers in the international sphere. The Foreign Secretary in his speech said little to reassure me that His Majesty's Government are really seized of the urgency of the international crises. In his speech yesterday my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington defined the whole basis of British foreign policy as the maintenance and the extension of the unity and the sense of a common cause between the free nations of Europe, the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States of America.
On another occasion, at the Conservative Conference at Llandudno a few years ago, I remember my right hon. Friend saying that the aim of British foreign policy should be to forge and weld into one the three great unities amongst the freedom-loving nations—the unity between us and the United States, between us and the Commonwealth, and between us and Western Europe. The position of Great Britain at the intersecting point of
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these three circles, these three groupings of freedom-loving nations, must surely impose upon us, and upon us only, the duty to act as the leaders of these three groupings and to forge them into one.
My main criticism of the Foreign Secretary's policy over the last five years is that we have failed in our duty to lead these three great unities amongst the peace-loving nations. We have failed because—and I hope I do not give too much offence when I say this—the Foreign Secretary's superiority complex in face of criticism at home, both from his own party and from ours, is equalled only by his inferiority complex abroad when it comes to handling Anglo-American relations and his isolation complex in his approach to European affairs.
I should like to take our relationship with America first. Nothing is clearer than that in Far Eastern matters, in all too many cases where our policy has not been actively wrong, it has been either non-existent or far too timidly expressed to make any impression upon the United States Government and State Department. For the rest, it seems to me that confusion reigns as to exactly what British policy is. Now for some weeks there have been vague rumours, hints and suggestions in the Press that the British Government were not in favour of advancing beyond what has now, I think, become commonly called in this debate the "waist" of Korea. Then there were further rumours that we were in favour of drawing a line which would leave a margin of territory on the south side of the Manchurian border, and leave the power stations which feed Chinese industry in Manchuria outside United Nations-occupied territory.
Indeed, the Foreign Secretary's speech yesterday confirmed that something of these views still remains in the minds of the Government. If these were our views—and my own personal opinion is that I hope they were—may I ask: Did we express them to the United States Government? If we did express them, did we seek the support of those nations who are members of the United Nations Interim Commission on Korea?
Mr. John Hynd: Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that if such proposals had been made the Government should now say to the United

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States in this very delicate situation "We told you so"?
Mr. Nutting: The hon. Gentleman, having served in the Government, knows perfectly well that there are questions an hon. Member can ask which maybe a Government cannot answer. I leave the decision whether this question should be answered to the Prime Minister, who will I am sure, be able to decide correctly for himself.
Why is there a conspiracy of silence in all these matters? I do not claim that these questions should be answered now, after the event. But what I do claim is that the effect of this utter lack of official information about our attitude and the way in which we have made our attitude known to the United States and in the United Nations has been to make us seem at best ridiculous and ignored, and at worst seriously at variance with our United States Allies. At present it seems to me that we are getting the worst of every world in the Far East. In Malaya we fight alone, and in Korea we are committed without having any real say as to the ultimate extent of the commitment.
With regard to what the hon. Member for Maldon has just said about the presidential Press conference at which the President is alleged to have said, as I read the news tape, that the use of the atomic bomb was a matter for the military men in the field, I sincerely hope that we shall have some explanation from the Prime Minister as to whether the British Government are going to make their view known in these matters. Although I claim no knowledge of what went on at the time, I can hardly believe that the use of the atomic bomb at the end of the Second World War was left to the military men in the field. Knowing, as I do, my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) I can hardly believe that he had not some hand in taking that momentous and vital decision.
All this goes to show, to my way of thinking more vividly than ever, the need for some kind of joint machinery of consultation at a military level between ourselves and the United States of America. I am not going into this matter very deeply because it was dealt with far more effectively than ever I could by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carshalton
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(Brigadier Head). If needs be, let this organisation, this machinery, be nominally connected with the United Nations or with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, but for Heaven's sake do not let us perpetuate this farce of "Let us pretend that the United Nations is running the war in Korea." War cannot be conducted through a committee of the United Nations consisting of Chile, the Philippines, Pakistan, and so on. As the Second World War most clearly showed, a world war of this size can be conducted, and indeed must be conducted, by joint machinery such as the Combined Chiefs-of-Staff organisation, in which we as a power deeply involved not only in the actual military hostilities, but also in the commercial field in the Far East, shall have a say—and I hope an equal say—as to what goes on.
In the past, several of my hon. Friends have suggested that we should have a Pacific Pact on the basis of the Atlantic Pact. Well, I do not see the practicability of this suggestion at this juncture, largely for the reason that the necessary basis of common political purpose does not yet exist amongst the nations who would obviously be involved and be members of such a Pacific Pact—largely, of course, because of the unhappy attitude of neutrality which India has so far deemed it advisable to strike. The only answer, therefore, seems to me to be some kind of joint operational machinery in which we and the Commonwealth countries involved have an equal say with the United States of America.
I want, in conclusion, to deal with our relations with Europe. I am deeply disturbed and distressed at the turn which our relations with France have taken in the last few months. Not merely have we put ourselves in the position where we are opposed to the French on the issue of German rearmament, but by ratting on the French, as we have done, we have embittered and antagonised them. In no other aspect of our foreign policy have we made ourselves appear more ridiculous or—may I say this also, and I measure the words—made ourselves appear more perfidious.
Time and again the Foreign Secretary has stood at the Despatch Box and expressed uncompromising opposition to the idea of rearming Germany—opposition

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far more uncompromising than the French attitude today or the French attitude six months ago. Surely in the light of that, in the light of the Foreign Secretary's speeches, the French were entitled to assume that we would support them against any premature American demand for German rearmament. Then what happened? When the Foreign Secretaries of the three Powers met in the United States in September the Government performed a complete volte face and supported the American view against the French, as the Foreign Secretary admitted in his speech yesterday. Even when the French came forward with a modified plan—maybe in part a little impracticable—we refused to support it because we refused to support the political principles involved, and we referred the matter to the Atlantic Pact deputies.
How could the British Government have failed to see that such action on our part would not only embitter the French but would put the Germans in the strongest possible bargaining position vis-à-vis the Schuman Plan, the revision of the Occupation Statute, the level of steel production, and so on? Indeed, not only would it put them in a bargaining position but, because of the pressure on the Chancellor of Germany from the opposition parties in that country, would drive them into bargaining and into raising their terms, which is precisely what they have done.
Perhaps it is not too improbable that this was a calculated move by the Government to wreck the Schuman Plan by forcing Germany to raise her demands. For the Government have shown beyond all imaginable doubt uncompromising hostility to the political conception of a United Europe. We know they pay lip service to the need for economic and military co-operation in Europe, but may I remind them of the words of Lord Montgomery quoted in this House only the other day in the debate on the Council of Europe:
"The task before the nations of the West is primarily political. Economic fusion and military strength will not be obtained until the political association between the group of nations concerned has first been defined."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th November, 1950: Vol. 480. c. 1432.]
I would add that the political association can only be arrived at with the active
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leadership and participation of Britain. If the Government do not believe that, let them ask any West European. Let them study the speeches of French, Belgian, and even German statesmen today, and let them heed the answer. It really is not good enough for the Government to tell us, as they have done, that any dragging of their feet in the matter of European unity is because of the commitments they feel and the allegiance they must show to the British Commonwealth. The Commonwealth are only too anxious for us to promote European unity, for surely it is to their interest that we should make any arrangements which are possible to avoid a third world war and to save their sons from coming over once again to shed their blood upon the battlefields of Europe.
As for the argument which the Foreign Secretary advanced yesterday, that a European Army would in some way conflict with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, that was effectively dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington. He tried to explain to the Foreign Secretary that the whole purpose of a European Army is not to be in conflict with the North Atlantic Treaty, but to be supplementary to any organisation which may arise under that Treaty Organisation.
I must deal with one further point made by the Foreign Secretary when he said—and I believe thought he was being mangnanimous and generous in saying it—that the Government would not stand in the way of the French in examining the possibilities of a European Army. But that is not the point. What the French want, what they have a right to ask, and what it is surely only common sense we should do, is not merely for us to avoid standing in the way of the French and a European Army but that we should stand behind France and behind Western Europe.
The Under-Secretary himself said this afternoon, "We do not want to have to liberate the Continent again." May I tell him that the policy of the Government, of which he is a member, is going the right way about having to liberate the Continent of Europe again. The rigid nationalism of the 19th century is dying in Western Europe under the pressure of world events, for the simple reason that it has been tried and found wanting in

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the provision of security for nearly every nation from Norway to the Black Sea. In its place is growing an alternative belief in the unity of Europe.
The Government, their eyes inevitably upon so many world fronts, are much too slow to recognise this growth. They are slower still to recognise that an organic and a systematic union of Western Europe can only be achieved under British leadership. Without us Western Europe must in time be dominated by Germany. If and when that happens, all hope of European union as we want it will be destroyed. I do beg the Government to learn and to apply the lesson of two world wars, made possible mainly because we in this country allowed the balance of power to be held by the aggressor. I do beg the Government to reconsider their policy towards the European problem. Time is indeed short, but I believe that it is not too late to hope that Britain will revert once more to her traditional and historic rôle, to forge and lead again a grand alliance of freedom-loving peoples.
7.36 p.m.
Mr. Frank McLeavy: The hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting) has made some rather sweeping and unjustified attacks upon the policy pursued by the Government, especially the policy of the Foreign Secretary. The hon. Member asked the Government to answer the question whether they are prepared to vote at the present time for China to be admitted as a member of the Security Council. Wisely our Labour Government decided, seeing that the People's Government of China was dominating all that vast continent, that they should be admitted to the Security Council in the place of the discredited Government in Formosa.
I believe—and I think my belief is shared by responsible Members on the opposite side of the House, in addition to my hon. Friends—that the policy pursued by the Government and by the Foreign Secretary in supporting and voting for China to be a member of the Security Council was right under the circumstances. I firmly believe that had the majority of the Security Council agreed to China becoming a member of that Council, the present difficult situation in Korea might have been avoided. Surely
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the hon. Gentleman was asking a question which he knew perfectly well the Government could not be in a position to answer; indeed, one which it would not be wise to answer.
Mr. Nutting: All I asked was that the Prime Minister should tell us beyond any doubt, where the Government stood in the matter of China being a member of the Security Council. Since the Under-Secretary has already given us some kind of line, albeit contradictory, in this matter, we have a right to ask that the Prime Minister should clarify it.
Mr. McLeavy: I was trying to point out how inappropriate was the time for the hon. Member to ask the Prime Minister such a question. The Government were right in the first place. They would have to review their decision in the light of subsequent circumstances. I feel that the Prime Minister—or, indeed, any Prime Minister—would be unwilling to make a rash decision upon a matter so vitally important to the well-being of people throughout the world.
Mr. Nutting: I am not asking that the Prime Minister should say what decision he is about to make. I merely asked that he should tell us what decision had been made.
Mr. McLeavy: I do not know whether I ought to pursue this matter with the hon. Member, but I am trying to point out as clearly as I can that this is not the time for the Prime Minister to announce an alteration of policy so far as this matter is concerned.
Mr. Nutting: That is evading the issue.
Mr. McLeavy: It is not a question of evading the issue, but of common sense. The Prime Minister and the Government are carrying a grave responsibility. If they were to adopt the implication behind the hon. Member's proposition, the Leader of the Opposition would immediately trounce them for having, so hastily decided to alter a previous well-conceived decision.
The hon. Member referred also to our relationships with a United Europe. I do not think anyone doubts for a moment that Europe cannot stand alone. We must bring in America and all the English-speaking races in order to build up a defence which will be adequate to

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protect the way of life of freedom-loving peoples. The suggestion that the Foreign Secretary has not carried out his responsibility as far as the Continent of Europe is concerned cannot be borne out by the facts. I remember very well my right hon. Friend taking immediate action On the Marshall speech which resulted in the Marshall Plan. I remember how quickly he called together the European nations to try to devise a plan whereby they could receive Marshall Aid to develop their industries which had been shattered by the war. The Foreign Secretary has done more than any other statesman during the past five years to build up a real spirit of co-operation between the nations of Western Europe—he has done more than anyone else.
Mr. Nigel Davies: What about the Minister of Town and Country Planning?
Mr. McLeavy: The Foreign Secretary has set an example of devoted service to the cause of freedom and peace and of giving to the workers throughout the world their proper share of the fruits of their labours. I remember the lead which was given by my right hon. Friend in connection with India, Burma, Ceylon and other countries. The Leader of the Opposition criticised our decision on India and said that we were "squandering the Empire." But who was right? The Foreign Secretary had vision. More than that, he had the courage, with his colleagues, to put that vision into practical application in the British Commonwealth of Nations. But for that masterly stroke of meeting the legitimate demand of India for self-determination, we should today be in a very difficult position in that part of the East.
I believe that my right hon. Friend's policy has consolidated in India, Ceylon and Burma a spirit of co-operation, respect and understanding for this nation which would never have been achieved in any other circumstances. My right hon. Friend's actions will bear abundant fruit for mankind, because he has shown clearly to the world that this new British conception of freedom is not merely a matter of rhetorical speeches and promises to be broken after the end of the war; this Socialist Government have carried out their pledge to give, as far as they could, self-determination and self-government to
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the whole of our peoples. I am proud also that even in those areas which have not demanded autonomy and the right of self-determination, we are trying to build up a system whereby they may be able to manage their own affairs and play their part more effectively in the policy of the great British Commonwealth of Nations. We owe a debt of gratitude to the Foreign Secretary for his vision and guidance during these difficult years.
Had the Tory Party been returned to power in 1945, the situation would be entirely different. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), on his own admission, would not have given freedom to India. He was not prepared to "squander" the British Empire. Had 1945 seen the misfortune of the election of the Leader of the Opposition with a majority in the House, the position in the Far East would now be completely changed.
In opening today's debate, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the position at the end of the war. One of the tragedies of that time is that after we had had unity of purpose and common sacrifice, to win the war, we were not able to maintain that spirit with Russia and go on to try to build up the shattered parts of the world. If the attitude of Russia was based upon a suspicion of the Western democracies, it was indeed wrong. Never was there a time when it was as easy as it was then to make a settlement of all our differences and to get an understanding between East and West—when we could have worked together, not in spending so much of our resources in building up vast armies, navies and air forces or in an armaments race for the atomic bomb or for anything else, but in using our great financial resources to give to all peoples a better share of the fruits of their labours. Russia could well have played her part in this great endeavour.
The right hon. Member for Woodford today referred to confining the line in Korea to the "waist." What he said may be perfectly true, but it is easy for Members of this House to be wise after the event. It is easy to say in this House, "I told you so" or "I thought so"; but I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman or any other hon. Member would have said very much about this had the position been different.

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Then the right hon. Gentleman, no doubt after full reflection, said that war was nothing but a catalogue of mistakes. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as anyone else that when war starts mistakes are inevitable, mistakes which cost serious loss of life and suffering among the people. That is why we all hope and pray that the present state of affairs will not develop into a world war. Naturally, the House and the country are gravely concerned about the dangerous international situation which has arisen from what can only be described as a Soviet grand-scale plan to gain the balance of power by methods of waging war by proxy. They care little about the suffering of the people.
While they pretend to be anxious for world peace, while they talk of world peace and organise their conferences, their armies of fifth columnists march on, giving the peace of death to those who oppose their domination. We must face that. It is a danger not of Russia fighting a war openly, but of Russia fighting a war through the satellite countries. We must do our best to try to meet that situation. I believe that the problem, serious though it may be, is one which can be solved by a spirit of good will and fellowship among all concerned. There never was a time when it was more essential that the English-speaking world should be united in action and purpose. I sincerely believe that if the English-speaking people of the world are united in thought and action we can save the world from the danger which besets it—the danger of self-destruction.
7.54 p.m.
Mr. Edgar Granville: I hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) will forgive me if I do not follow closely the arguments expressed in his interesting speech, with a good deal of which I fully agreed.
The Foreign Secretary yesterday appealed for restraint and moderation in the speeches to be made in this debate. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman can complain at the tone or the temper of the speeches which we have heard so far. The Foreign Secretary's speech itself was a model of restraint and moderation. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman is doing his best in the tre-
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mendous difficulties presented by a global East-to-West war threat. Let us be frank about this. The day for pin-pricking speeches has passed, and it is the duty of every hon. Member to support the Foreign Secretary and the Government in this difficult and serious international situation.
The Leader of the Opposition and the deputy-leader both appealed for a measure of unity not only among our Allies but in this country. Events are moving very quickly. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) used to say, decisions are probably being taken by the inexorable march of events. I should like to put some questions to which I hope that the Prime Minister will be able to reply. I ask these questions on behalf of my hon. Friends who sit on the Liberal bench. The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) in a speech which, whether we agreed with him or not, we all enjoyed listening to, referred to the statement which has appeared upon the tape machines and in the papers late this evening and which has aroused a great deal of anxiety in all parts of the House. As a result of that statement, the speech which I meant to make upon foreign affairs will not be delivered.
Instead, I want to put some questions to the Prime Minister. I realise that this American version is only a report upon the tape machine and that certain words are used in the statement made by President Truman at his Press Conference in Washington today defining the responsibility of the United Nations. The report which I got from the text was that the President is reputed to have said, in reply to a question from one of the Pressmen present, that the used of the atomic bomb in Korea is under active consideration. Then, I think, there followed some words with regard to the United Nations and their responsibilities—and they may, of course, be a qualifying phrase. The report continues by saying that the choice of weapons was a matter for the military commander in the field. This is a serious statement.
If the Prime Minister cannot allay our feelings tonight, I suggest that a statement should be made by His Majesty's Government in this House tomorrow, if possible. I should like to know whether this is the first that the Government have heard of
(Tommorrow)
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the matter. Was this statement made to the Press the first intimation that the Foreign Office, the Foreign Secretary and the Government had that the use of the atomic bomb in Korea is under active consideration? It may be that the qualifying words about the responsibilities of the United Nations are of the utmost importance. But let us have them in this House. Let us be told the full facts. This is important.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) suggested that a Minister of senior rank should be at Lake Success. I am one of those who was fully prepared to pair to enable a senior Minister to go there. It would be a good example of national unity if that could be done.
I should like to ask the Government whether it is their intention—and I think they ought to be able to inform the House—that a senior Minister should be present and take part in these discussions on the atomic bomb. I have no criticisms to offer of the very able Minister of State, who I believe is doing a first-class job there, but I think this matter has aroused a great deal of anxiety, and the sooner the Government can make a statement the better. I hope they will be able to tell us, either today or tomorrow. I feel that the Prime Minister should go there, either with the Foreign Secretary or even alone, in order to see that the views of the British Government are known in these councils which are making this very grim and serious decision on which our whole future may depend.
8.1 p.m.
Mr. John Hynd: I am glad that I have the opportunity of following the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), because I have been listening for some time to a debate which began in a mood of very great seriousness, and the tone of which was set by the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), but which, in the growing seriousness of the situation, according to what we read on the tape, seems to have lost itself in a considerable amount of irrelevancy. I find that in the last few hours we have diverged to the party line in regard to European Union and other matters of that kind.
Quite frankly, I think the most realistic speech in the last several hours has been
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the one which we have Just heard, because it is useless, at this stage and in the circumstances as they are, for us to be discussing what might very well have been useful considerations—the rearmament of Germany, European Union and matters of that kind—in view of what has been happening in the last 48 hours, which makes it incumbent upon this House to declare in very clear fashion precisely where we stand in this critical situation.
I want to pay my tribute to the tone of the speech of the Foreign Secretary in this debate. Incidentally, at no time since the end of the war have we heard a speech on foreign affairs to which all hon. Members in my party and all parties in the country could have given such unanimous support. I think that was also borne out by the tone of the speech of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington, and I do not remember ever having listened to a more unanimous debate in the House of Commons on any subject of first-class importance that I can recall. It is extremely significant that many of those things which I would have said normally in a foreign affairs debate, apart from the present grave situation, have already, within the last 24 hours, become commonplaces in the debate, are now commonly accepted in all parts of the House, and will no doubt make a certain impression upon the Government.
What we are faced with at the moment is the fact of first-class aggression by Communist China, and what we have to ask ourselves is why the Chinese have committed that aggression. I have been an enthusiastic supporter of the policy of His Majesty's Government in trying to get Communist China recognised by the Security Council, but I find myself inevitably in some agreement with those who ask whether it is possible to press that claim at this juncture, until the situation has been cleared up. Nevertheless, I think it is necessary to consider why China has taken this terrible step.
Is it the fact, as has been suggested by quite a number of hon. Members, that China is nothing more than a tool of Russia, and that China is voluntarily and consciously working for the Russian grand strategy? Or is it that China has been driven to seek what support she can for ending a situation from which she has suffered for many years, and finds that

1407
the only support she can get is that of Soviet Russia? Other countries have taken that attitude in the past and have changed their minds later. If China is in the position that she can find no support from any quarter except Russia, then it is difficult to blame Communist China for turning to Russia for some support at present, whatever may be her future purpose. The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington—and this is one of the few points on which I found myself slightly in disagreement with him—suggested that China's action can be taken as evidence that there is no prospect of China producing another Tito. I hope he may be proved wrong by the event.
I am quite sure that China is wise enough to realise that she has a very clear choice before her. Having achieved her revolution, having received the support of some members of the United Nations for the establishment of her place in the council of the Nations, having been thus successful after a long struggle to achieve that position, and being faced with a tremendous job of reconstruction; and having before her the opportunity, if she is wise, to begin that reconstruction with a new U.N.R.R.A., which helped not only Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary but Byelo-Russia and the Ukraine is it really possible that China is prepared, not only to prejudice all these possibilities, but to plunge herself and the whole world into a new total world war, in which neither victor nor vanquished will be able to reconstruct anything like a civilised standard of life in a generation? I do not think that China has that purpose in view. I believe that she has a short-term purpose in view, and that it is possible for us, with the right approach, to get an understanding with China in regard to the position in Korea.
Then we come to the question of our own side. I do not want to enter into any recriminations. I pay full attention to what has been said by the Foreign Secretary and the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition, about the vital need for the unity of the Western Powers in this situation. But I think it is also necessary that we should speak frankly to our Allies, because one of the great advantages which we claim for our democratic alliances is that we can speak frankly to each other.
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Therefore, without criticising or levelling any charges at all, I should like to put on record that very many of us in this House are beginning to wonder who is conducting United States policy at the present time. Whatever may have been said by one or two hon. Members in the debate, there is one thing we can be proud of in this situation, and that is that the record of the British Government has been impeccable. Our attitude to the liberation of territories in Asia, in regard to the recognition of Communist China, and in regard to various other matters has been impeccable.
Proposals have been made in the Security Council to bring the current situation to an end, and it is important that the Government should tell the country and the world that we were ready to play our part. While our record has been impeccable, there is grave uneasiness pervading the country at the present time. That uneasiness arises from the doubt whether, in fact, our position is being put forcibly and persistently enough in Washington, not because of any inadequacy, but because it is quite clear that, if statements are to come off the tape and over the wires from Washington as to what the President of the United States says about the purpose of the Security Council or the purpose of the United Nations Forces in Korea, it is just not enough to have the Minister of State or any of his colleagues only being able to consult an Under-Secretary and only keep touch with a senior Minister by telegrams sent over here.
I want to suggest to the Prime Minister tonight that in order to create that confidence which is so necessary in this country, a confidence which will rally our people and which will be expressed in the decisions that may be taken at Washington, however grave they may be, we must be satisfied that in every decision taken at the top level, our own top level representative is there to participate in those decisions. That, I suggest, would give more confidence to the House of Commons, to the party I represent, and to all sections throughout the country.
Therefore, I join with the hon. Member for Eye tonight in appealing to the Prime Minister on this great occasion not to go to Moscow—we want no Munichs or Berchtesgadens—but to go immediately to Washington where our

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own decisions are being taken, in order that the people of this country can be satisfied that our affairs are being conducted by people in whom we have the completest confidence.
8.12 p.m.
Mr. Norman Bower: I was very interested in what the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) said on the subject of China and her motives for launching this attack, and I found myself in almost complete agreement with what he said about the possibility of arriving at a settlement with China provided the situation is well and wisely handled. I shall have a word or two more to say about that in a moment, but, first of all, I want to say one or two things which I think perhaps many hon. Members may regard as being somewhat platitudinous but which I feel are not as fully or widely appreciated in some quarters as they might be.
It seems to me that one of the most important things we have to do if we are to avoid war is not only to convince Russia by means of rapid and effective rearmament that if she did attack in the West she would have no hope at all of a quick and easy victory, but also to convince her that our rearmament—and by that, of course, I mean the rearmament of our Allies as well—is being undertaken purely for defensive purposes and not in any way with the object of launching any aggressive attack against her.
I know there are many people who scout the idea that fear of the West plays any part at all in determining Russia's present behaviour and policy, but I do not share that view. I think it quite likely that the men in the Kremlin are obsessed with the theory, which I understands from Marx, that capitalism—that is the name they give to the political and economic system practised in the West, irrespective of the degree of Socialism that may prevail in individual countries—is doomed to collapse, and that prior to its collapse it will, in order to prolong its own lease of life, launch an attack on Russia as the citadel of Communism, the system which they believe is destined to replace it.
I think we have to show them that they are utterly wrong on both those points, and that, first of all, capitalism—and hon. Members will appreciate that I use the word in Stalin's sense and not
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in their—so far from being doomed to collapse, is in fact becoming stronger and more virile every day, and that, inasmuch as it depends for its strength and virility on the maintenance of peace, it has no intention whatever of lauching any attack on Russia. If we can convince them of those two things, and in addition, of course, that the peoples of the democratic countries are both able and willing in time of peace to bear whatever burdens are necessary to enable them to defend their freedom and independence, then there will be good grounds for thinking that there will be no war in the foreseeable future.
It seems to me that there is a good deal of evidence to indicate that at the present moment Russia's policy and tactics are once again in the melting pot, and there may be in the near future an opportunity of giving them a new and more beneficial direction. Therefore, I believe, with most other hon. Members. that not only should the Government do all in their power by putting forward, in conjunction with our Allies, alternative proposals to enable the holding of the meeting of Foreign Ministers which Russia has suggested, but that they ought to do something more than that. I believe that the time has come when the Prime Minister ought to take the initiative in promoting a meeting—and here I do not agree with the hon. Member for Attercliffe—between President Truman. Mr. Stalin and himself.
Like my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I am also a great believer in the personal touch, and although I have never met Mr. Stalin—and I am quite prepared to believe that he is much more difficult to get on with than most of the people I normally come up against—yet I still feel that such a meeting, even if the agenda were not carefully prepared and even if no concrete results emerged immediately, might have a very beneficial effect in improving the atmosphere and in helping to convince Stalin on the points I have mentioned.
Our policy must be based on the twin pillars of conciliation and strength. Mere strength and rearmament without a readiness to conciliate and to negotiate to see that justice is done will certainly lead to war. Equally, a policy of conciliation and compromise without the strength to support and back it up will degenerate

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into mere appeasement, and that equally certainly will lead to war. Our policy must be compounded of both in equal measure.
Nor, I submit, must we allow our ideological prejudices against Communism to mislead us into thinking that Communism and aggression are necessarily the same thing. The way to fight aggression, as we all know, is by military force, as we have been trying to do in Korea but the way to fight Communism is by proving to people that we have something infinitely better to offer, both as regards the way of life and the standard of living, than anything Communism can possibly offer. Because we can do that, I believe we have very little indeed to fear from Communism in this country.
It seems to me that there are two lots of dangerous people abroad in the Western world at the present time, both of whom are well meaning, but both of whom, if they were to get their way, would lead us into serious trouble. The first lot of dangerous people to whom I refer—and they are only a very small minority and mainly, I think, confined to this country and other countries on the Continent of Europe—are those pacifists and like-minded people who are under the impression that it is possible to secure peace by conciliation alone, without rearmament. The second lot of dangerous people—and in my view they are the more dangerous because they are a much larger number and more powerful, and are mainly confined, I think, to the United States, although there are some also to be found in Europe—are those who seem intent on taking advantage of the ill-repute into which the word "appeasement" has fallen in order to call any act of conciliation, however just and reasonable it may be, by the name of appeasement.
As I understand it, if one does something which is wrong or unjust in order to buy off trouble, that is appeasement, but to do something which is right and just in order to relieve international tension and improve the situation is not appeasement but conciliation. It seems to me that the people who are intent on taking advantage of the ill-repute into which this word "appeasement" has fallen have shown their hand from the
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beginning by refusing, among other things, to face the facts and by opposing the admission of Communist China to the Security Council, which, in my view, is long overdue.
I am very sorry indeed to have to disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) about this, but I think that if it were done today it would lead to an immediate lessening of international tension. It is quite wrong, and truly farcical that the representative of Chiang Kaishek's administration, which no longer has any vestige of power or authority over any part of the mainland of China, should be able to continue to sit and vote in the Security Council, and to take over the Presidency, as he is going to do tomorrow, and, if necessary, even to exercise the power of veto. Therefore, I urge the Government to continue to press unremittingly for the entry of the Peking Government into the United Nations.
I share the opinion of many other hon. Members, although for a different reason, perhaps, that the statement made on that subject by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs this afternoon was unclear and unsatisfactory. It was quite impossible to gather from that statement what the policy of the Government is on this matter. I hope that when the Prime Minister speaks tonight he will make the Government's policy with regard to the admission of China completely and abundantly clear.
I know it is emotionally very distasteful to many hon. Members to advocate any kind of concession to a Communist Government, just as it was emotionally distasteful to many people to contemplate any concession to Franco Spain, but we have to be realists in all these matters. After all, China has a greater interest in the future status of Korea than any other country, and I am convinced that there will be small chance of settling this problem permanently and satisfactorily until China has been brought into the Security Council, where it will be possible to discuss the matter properly.
It is absolutely useless to call upon a Government which we refuse to admit to our counsels to send a representative to reply to some charge, very much as one would summon a man to come to the police court and defend himself. That sort of thing will get one nowhere, as I

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think has been proved to the hilt in the case of what is happening in Korea. If the Peking Government were admitted to the United Nations, they would be very much less prone to indulge in these adventures in Korea, Tibet and Indo-China. It might be found that there is a great difference between what a nation does when it is excluded from the United Nations and when it is included. Of course, if, after being admitted, it continued to override the authority of the United Nations, we should at least know where we were, and it might then be proper to consider the reconstitution of the United Nations on the basis of admitting only those nations which proved that they would cooperate in carrying out United Nations principles.
Mr. Niall Macpherson: Would my hon. Friend be in favour of admitting China without the necessity of the Chinese saying that they were prepared to accept the United Nations Charter itself?
Mr. Bower: As I understand it, any country which wants to be admitted to the United Nations must accept the Charter, and I understand the Peking Government has expressed a desire to be admitted. Therefore, presumably they would accept the Charter. Certainly no nation that would not accept the Charter could be a member.
Finally, I think it extremely likely that Russia, despite her protestations, does not want the Peking Government to be admitted at all, but is far more interested in being able to exploit the exclusion of that Government and keep alive that sense of grievance against the Western Powers because of that exclusion. It is extremely foolish, on the part of the Western Powers, to continue to give her the opportunity to do that. Therefore, I feel that if the Government will persevere in what I believe to be their praiseworthy efforts hitherto to solve the Chinese problem, and at the same time adopt a slightly less orthodox and more imaginative policy in their approach to Russia, this country may yet be instrumental in leading the world towards a secure and stable peace.
8.25 p.m.
Mr. Julius Silverman: The speeches that we have heard so far, with very few exceptions,
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have been speeches toned in moderation, in general, without any trace of the bellicose, and showing a realisation of the serious danger which menaces us at the present moment. The speech we have just heard from the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Bower) is no exception.
The events which, it seems, are taking place on the other side of the Atlantic would seem to render almost out-of-date most of the notes which have been prepared for speeches today. The tide is moving rapidly, and events are overtaking our thoughts. I do not know what truth there is in Press reports which reach us from the other side of the Atlantic. Whether they are true or untrue, the fact that they are being circulated at the present time underlines the gravity of the situation and the need for moderation and statesmanship.
I do not know what President Truman has in mind about the atom bomb, but I would say this, not so much to President Truman or to Mr. Dean Acheson, but rather to the back-seat drivers in America who talk so much. I do not think that the civilised world would readily forgive the use of the atom bomb on the open cities of China, which are not in any sense a military objective. Such action would simply amount and lead to a competition in barbarism. I do not know of anything which would more greatly strain or imperil the friendship or understanding between our two great nations than would an action of that sort. Having said that; I hope that these Press reports are untrue.
None the less it is necessary to be frank with some of the people in America at the present time, and, again, I am speaking in the main of the back-seat drivers. I can understand, perhaps, that they are a little anxious that we should proceed more rapidly upon the road which leads to a complete clash, that we should be less compromising, and that we should be less moderate. But I want these people to bear in mind that, if there is a major war, this country, and not America, will bear the brunt of it. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was quite right when he said that, if the Americans have 500 atom bombs and the Russians have 50, then it will be the crowded and teeming industrial areas of this country that will get the 50.

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To illustrate what I mean I will tell them a story. An employer sent his servant to collect a debt from a tough gentleman. When the servant went to get the debt the man told him, "Go away. If you come back again I will black both your eyes and break every bone in your body." The servant went back to his employer and told him what the man had said to him. His employer said, "You go back and tell him that he cannot intimidate me." I hope our American friends will appreciate the point.
A lot has been said about China, and I want to make a few observations on that subject. We are not dealing with seats on the Security Council as a reward for good conduct. We really cannot adopt this attitude of sugar candy in one hand and a stick in the other towards great nations representing large numbers of people. The plaint fact is that the United Nations was created to reflect the real repositories of power, and the United Nations is incomplete and lacks authority while a quarter of the world's population is outside it.
It is impossible to make any decision whatsoever about the Far East without drawing China into our councils. The last few days have illustrated that beyond any doubt. It is not so much a question of giving China a reward for what she has done or punishing her for what she has done; the fact is that it is necessary for the very purpose of the United Nations that she should be in our councils. Indeed, I think, as many others think, that if that had happened some time ago the unfortunate events which are at present taking place might well have been avoided.
I am glad that the Foreign Secretary has told us that a new approach is to be made to the Soviet Union. All nations have a vested interest in peace. Atom bombs would destroy alike the commissar and the banker. I cannot see any reason to assume that these efforts should be unfruitful. It has been pointed out that any such approach should not be made upon the basis simply of concessions on one side. There will have to be concessions on both sides. As has already been said, there is the danger that the government which made those concessions might be accused of appeasement. But there can be no agreement on the basis of a one-sided surrender. I, like the right hon.
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Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), hope that the negotiations will not be used simply as a method of propaganda for both sides, with the statesmen of both nations appealing to their own people and making their speeches for the consumption of their own people.
I also hope that the whole question of armaments will be considered in these negotiations. There can be no lasting agreement if this great race in armaments is allowed to proceed. I hope that something can be agreed upon which will satisfy our security and at the same time prevent the further encroachment of the immense burden of armaments upon the lives of the ordinary people in this country. These are some of the things which I think must feature in any agreement.
At this late stage I do not propose to take the time of the House any longer. I believe that the present situation is one of great menace. I believe it is also an occasion of great opportunity. For one moment the nations of the world have seen the precipice. I think they now realise the horrible danger of proceeding as we have been proceeding and we may well be now in a position to reach an agreement which will consolidate and safeguard the peace of the world.
8.35 p.m.
Mr. Niall Macpherson: This has been a grim debate because of the menace which hangs over us all, but it has also been an encouraging debate in another respect because, throughout the House, it has shown the closing of the ranks in a way which I have not known in a foreign affairs debate for a very long time. That is of tremendous importance and I hope it will be noted in the appropriate quarters abroad.
That does not mean, of course, that we have not seen some differences of opinion. We have had within the last few minutes a very courageous speech by the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Bower) with which all hon. Members on this side did not agree. Personally, I agree that it is necessary for countries to accept the Charter before they can he admitted to the United Nations, but the acceptance of the Charter is not just a question of writing a signature. It is a question of deeds—of showing by your actions that you mean to comply with the terms of

1417
the Charter. That is something which we have not yet seen from China.
Mr. Paton: Is it not a fact that the United States opposed the entry of China, contrary to all promptings of common sense and of law, for nearly a year before China made any breach of the Charter?
Mr. Macpherson: That may well be so, but the fact is that at the moment the Chinese People's Government are showing that they are not in line with the Charter and, whatever may be the reason, until they are it seems extremely difficult for U.N.O. to admit them.
One of the great difficulties facing this House, and one with which I hope the Prime Minister will deal tonight, is this: supposing we withdraw our troops to what is now called the "waist" of Korea. With whom are we to negotiate? General Wu, the representative of the Chinese People's Government, who has gone to the United Nations, has disclaimed responsibility for the Chinese troops in North Korea. It is the usual technique of war by proxy. He says the troops are all volunteers fighting under the North Korean command. I hope the Prime Minister will deal with that problem, it is a very real one.
The difficulty in dealing with China at present is her utter remoteness. We know from our own diplomatic experience that it is not just a question of whether she is recognised or not. I hope, too, that the Prime Minister will clarify a remark which was made by the Foreign Secretary yesterday:
"As I said earlier, if the Chinese are in the mood to co-operate, then I am hopeful that an extension of these hostilities can he avoided."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November. 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1172.]
Will the Prime Minister say exactly what his right hon. Friend meant by that? It can be given several and some very stringent interpretations.
One of the things upon which the House has been agreed is that there should be representation of His Majesty's Government at the highest level in Washington at the present time. I hope that is one of the things with which the Prime Minister will agree and that he will also agree to the re-creation as early as possible of the Chiefs of Staff Committee. That is of supreme importance in the near future.
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I think the Foreign Secretary was quite right to stress his willingness to negotiate to remove causes of war conditions. I think he was no less right to stress our willingness to re-arm. Unless we build up our strength I do not think it will succeed. The hon. Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo), whom I am sorry not to see in his place, said yesterday that the main division in the world was between those who believed that war was inevitable and those who did not. The trouble is to know who believes that war is inevitable and those who do not. We do know that Lenist and Stalinist teaching is that war is inevitable. Do they really believe this or not? If they do believe it, are they prepared to recoil from that belief on the basis of some kind of negotiation? Because if they do believe it and are not prepared to recoil from it, there really is very little possibility of negotiations succeeding in any permanent sense.
I agree with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) that if the world is divided into two blocs of nations, as he said, each suspicious and fearful of the other, and each building up armaments, war then is inevitable. It may be that war is inevitable. There is a point at which war becomes inevitable. Up to then the wills of free men can operate. I do not believe that at the moment we have reached that point. I believe that there is a turning back.
The Under-Secretary of State has spoken of the acceptance of the "necessity" for German rearmament. One of the few things on which we have been agreed with Russia is on the demilitarisation of Germany. Russia's own actions in despoiling Germany of a vast slice of territory in the East have made it all the more important both to Poland and herself that Germany should not be remilitarised. We ought not to forget that we solemnly committed ourselves to the demilitarisation of Germany. Of course, we do not consider that Russia has carried out her part of the bargain, but in creating the Bereitschaften has Russia in fact rearmed Eastern Germany? I am told that the amount of armament is not heavy—that is, the amount of armaments possessed by the Bereitschaften in Eastern Germany—and that it is quite insufficient to enable her to make war in the modern sense.
I want to ask what are our intentions? What are those of France and the United

1419
States in regard to Western Germany? Will the German units that we intend to include in our European Army be more heavily armed than the Bereitschaften or not? If they are, who is to supply them in the reasonably near future with the tanks and other heavy armaments that would be required? France cannot supply her own troops. Can we, when we are so very short? Are the United States to supply their late enemies in preference to their late Allies?
I suggest that the worst service that could be rendered, in trying to establish a sense of community of interest between Germany and the other nations of the West, would be to hold out to Germany the prospect of contributing to an integrated European Force, and then not to allow her to contribute on equal terms or to have the same kind of arms as her comrades in arms. That would be greatly resented in Germany. For example, all the other countries have conscription. Ought Germany to have it also? If we are to ask Germany to supply a volunteer force, such as we had before the last war, are we going to starve it of heavy arms and at the same time prevent the Germans from providing arms for themselves? I do not think that we can pursue that policy with any kind of success.
Surely the right policy for us to pursue—even if it is only a question of propaganda which is such an important element in these days—is to say to the Russians, "You have provided in Eastern Germany Bereitschaften. We shall do the same on the same scale in Western Germany and in the same proportion to population." If we do that, we can come to any examination such as has been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington with clean hands. If we do not, we shall be putting into the hands of the Russians a real point of attack. I do not believe that from that time onwards it will be possible to negotiate with the Russians. That, to my mind, is the point of no return.
If we are to establish Bereitschaften in the West as is in the East, naturally we have to say to the Germans, "If you are attacked, whether from Eastern Germany or from anywhere else, we shall come to your assistance and we will include
1420
your Bereitschaften under our supreme command." It is wrong in my view—I put this to the Prime Minister in the hope that he will deal with the point—to take action which is not necessary in itself and which will be in conflict even with what Russia has done in Eastern Germany, until we have explored every other possibility.
8.47 p.m.
Mr. N. H. Lever: I shall only follow the line of argument of the non. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson) thus far, that if I understood him correctly he is opposed to the ideas which are now popular for rearming the German people. I am not sure whether he was for or against it, but I rather fancy that he came down against it to the point of no return. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary once described the decision to rearm Germany as "a frightful one." I am one of those who still regard it as a frightful decision which should not in any circumstances he supported by Members of this House, and I regret to see signs that the Government are yielding on the point from the very strong stand they have taken in the past.
Statements have been made about dividing the world into two ideological camps, and as a division between those who regard war as inevitable and those who do not. The division I would make is between those who advocate policies which make war inevitable and those who advocate policies which will admit of efforts at association and accommodation among the great Powers of the world. There may be a few lunatics on both sides of this House, but apart from those I believe that nobody subjectively desires that war should arise out of the difficulties with which the world is faced. Unfortunately, many people who wish well in that respect advocate policies which would lead to war.
I think that German rearmament, on which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary took such a firm stand for a number of years, is one of those key points view with the deepest distrust either the sincerity or the clear-sightedness of those who tell me that they favour a negotiated peace with the Eastern European Powers, and who demand, at the

1421
same time, that before negotiations are commenced we should take powder kegs to the areas where the sparks are likely to fly most quickly.
We are told that at all costs we must preserve our unity with the U.S.A. Unless we are prepared to go blindfold into another adventure in the Far East, we have to know what unity is behind what policy. Is it unity behind the policy expressed by the Foreign Secretary yesterday, or unity behind the policies which have been pursued, contrary to our desires, by the United States in dealing with the Far East question? I have promised to be very brief in this debate, so I will narrow my attention to this small point.
The Foreign Secretary has given tangible evidence to this House that he is pursuing a course calculated to prevent the extension of the war in the Far East. He has done his best to bring the Chinese People's Government into the United Nations. I hope that he will continue with those efforts. As has been pointed out, the United Nations exist to reconcile conflicting interests without war. Those who wish to exclude the Chinese People's Government, representing some 400 million people and a huge area in the Far East, must have somewhere in their mind the absence of desire to settle the problems confronting that area without war.
America is deeply divided upon the subject. The American Government, it is known, has been continuously afflicted and lately very successfully afflicted by a lobby known as the China lobby in the U.S.A. The China lobby consists of what, I think, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition would call a formidable conspiracy of vested interests who seek to replace the Chinese People's Government by the Chiang Kai-shek Government. Their original machinations were largely stopped by General Marshall, who reported his contempt of the Chiang Kai-shek Government to his own Government, as the result of which they abandoned support of it.
The China lobby so far has been strong enough to prevent a constructive policy being adopted by the United States towards the Chinese People's Government. The sad fact really is that the China lobby influence none other than the Supreme Commander of the United Nations Forces,
1422
General MacArthur. These are people whose aim in the world is to replace the People's Government of China by the Chiang Kai-shek regime. It is quite apparent that this can only be done by war in which Chiang Kai-shek is backed by American force. It is obviously their purpose to bring the American Government into an armed clash with the Chinese People's Government. I am bound to say that it causes me considerable alarm when I attempt to assess the enormous resources possessed by the China lobby. It causes considerable alarm when I see the policy advocated by His Majesty's Government in relation to Korea and China being ignored or overruled by the Supreme Commander himself.
I want to refer to one question which is current in what is known as informed quarters in London. There are hon. Members on both sides of the House who are sceptical of the suggestion that the Chinese Government have acted because they honestly fear for the safety of their country. The British Government wisely realised that the Chinese Government must have such apprehensions, and instructed the British representative in Peking to put to the Chinese Government as proof of our peaceful intentions a suggestion that there should be a neutral buffer zone in Korea between the Manchurian border and the United Nations Forces.
I want to ask the Prime Minister whether it is true that, within 48 hours of that suggestion having been put up to the Chinese Government, and while it was being considered by them, General MacArthur publicly announced that no such negotiations could be entertained and commenced his "Home for Christmas" offensive. If it is true, it is plain that it is yet another triumph for the China lobby in sabotaging the constructive policy being pursued by His Majesty's Government.
I should like to make reference to the declaration by President Truman which has appeared in the papers. I am not going to speculate with those professionals skilled in understanding these Press conferences of the American President. I am bound to say that the sum total effect on me of the interview reported on the tape of the President with his journalists in relation to the atomic bomb, was one

1423
of great shock at the levity with which he appears to treat what would be the most accursed act which yet—
Mr. Blackburn: On a point of order. Is it not a fact that the President of the United States, according to the Rules of the House, should not be attacked? [Interruption.] I am asking for your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I submit that I am entitled to silence in putting my point of order. I ask whether it is not an attack or reflection on the President of a friendly State for an hon. Member to say that his behaviour shocked him, and that he was shocked by the President's levity at his Press conference?
Mr. S. Silverman Mr. S. Silverman rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): Perhaps I might be allowed to answer one point of order at a time. I do not think it is an attack to say that one is shocked by something that someone has said.
Mr. Blackburn: I was referring to the use of the word "levity."
Mr. Lever: I am sure that I carry all right-thinking Members with me, and that I shall be serving the interests of Anglo-American friendship in the long run, if I make it clear, and if the House by its reaction makes it clear, or the Prime Minister in reply to the debate makes it plain, that it is utterly repugnant to the British public at the present time that any Government should seriously contemplate unloosing this abominable weapon on the sorely pressed, hard tried, and pitifully fed people of China.
I cannot conclude without commenting on and endorsing the speech made by the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Bower). It was the most realistic speech I have heard in the debate. He showed a spirit of realism, and a willingness to see negotiations which can relieve the world from the threat of immediate war. I have every confidence that the Prime Minister will reinforce that and will say that the Government remain determined to pursue a peaceful policy in relation to China, and to prevent an extension of the war, a policy which they have already shown.
If there is any tragedy about the Foreign Secretary, it is that he has so
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often been right—more often than not—but that his obstinacy has seemed to be reserved for the occasions when he has been wrong, and his weakness has been in yielding on too many important questions when he has been right. I refer to the questions of the rearmament of Germany and international control of the heavy industries in the Ruhr, questions upon which the Foreign Secretary has taken a stand from which, unfortunately, he has retracted under American pressure.
All that His Majesty's Government have done on the Chinese question has the backing of all the peace-loving people of this country. We hope the Foreign Secretary and the Government will stand firm this time no matter what pressure is exerted.
9.1 p.m.
Mr. R. A. Butler: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Cheetham (Mr. N. H. Lever) need have no anxiety about the nervous state in which he anticipated I should be. My "nervosity," or whatever word one likes to use, was confined simply to the question of whether another hon. Member would be able to intervene before the hour at which I thought it wise to rise to bring our debate to an end so far as this side of the House is concerned. I do not think we have lost anything by his having made his speech, despite the points of order raised.
The conduct of foreign affairs and of the relationship of our Government and country with other governments becomes involved with the question of national survival. We have had many debates on foreign affairs, in almost all of which I have had the honour to take part. We have today had an amiable and interesting debate, described in Foreign Office language as a tour d'horizon, and it has confined itself to matters which are non-controversial, resulting in the minimum of interest being taken in the subject. Tonight I do not think there is any doubt that the whole House and the country are deeply concerned and anxious about the situation which faces us. Most urgent and alarming issues come before us today, and only recently some fresh issues, to which I wish to refer later, have shown not only the deep anxiety of hon. Members, but also a very widespread and almost universal sense of responsibility

1425
for the fears and troubles which we are facing.
My business at this late hour is to sum up the point of view, which has already been put with far greater clarity than I could put it by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and by several other Members of this House, who have put their case with clarity and fairness. The trend of our national policy for some time past has been rightly moving towards closer and closer association and co-operation with the United States of America—about which I shall have something to say later—and with the British Commonwealth.
The first conclusion I wish to draw from this debate, through listening to the speeches made by the Foreign Secretary and by others in the House, is that the voice of Britain must be heard henceforth with far greater authority in the councils of the free democracies of the world, and in particular in the councils of the United States. We must urge that need with as much strength as we can command. I believe there is universal approval in this House and country for closer working with the United States, to whom we should be bound with hoops of steel.
I have tumbled, perhaps by chance, into a phrase of that wise old man Polonius, who with Dr. Johnson and a few others have become the wise and almost permanent counsellors of the human race in trouble. I am obliged to continue with Polonius, though it was accidentally that I quoted this wise and distinguished old man, but he said on one occasion:
"Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel; hut, being in, Bear't that th' opposed may beware of thee."
That seems to me to sum up admirably the attitude which this House should adopt towards the possibility of war with China at the present time. I should like to say quite firmly that we on this side of the House are determined, if possible, so to exert our influence, in the limited way we can exert it in debate and speeches of this sort, in order to avoid becoming embroiled in a war with China at the present time.
I was very much impressed by a statement made in the United States by Dr.
1426
Jessup, whom we all admire, reported in "The Times" of 28th November last. He used these words, which I quote in full because they so well represent the point of view upon which I feel strongly:
"It is easy to get into a war … it is always difficult to keep the peace… It is perfectly clear that nothing would give more satisfaction to those directing the strategy of Communist imperialism than to see the United States entangled in a full-scale war on the mainland of Asia."
He goes on to say:
"There are thoughtless people in this country"
that is in America—
"who would have us fall into this trap.… The effort to maintain peace is always the first study of those in charge of the foreign policy of the United States."
I do not think the feelings I have could be expressed better, and as far as I was able to understand the attitude of the Foreign Secretary, he agrees with those sentiments and would follow that policy. Thus we are in agreement, His Majesty's Government, His Majesty's Opposition and the opinion of the section represented by Dr. Jessup in the United States of America, that that should be our general approach to the problems of today.
If that be the case, I now want to come immediately to some circumstances which have arisen this evening, and which have caused many of us great concern and anxiety. I refer to the reports, at not very great length in the evening papers, and at rather greater length on what we call "the tape," of a Press conference and statement issued by the President of the United States of America. The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg), who spoke earlier in the debate, referred to these matters shortly, and I think fairly. I certainly do not wish in any way to exaggerate the importance of these statements. I understand that they were made at a Press conference, and those of us who have any experience of these matters, especially perhaps one right hon. Gentleman opposite, know what difficulty there is in circumstances when one may feel that one has not been properly represented.
But leaving that on one side, the first anxiety which arises in one's mind—and I think generally in the minds of hon. Members, as I have been able to ascertain them in the corridors and other places in this House this evening—is a statement

1427
that was made by the President in answer to a question, that the use of the atom bomb would be subject to the discretion of the commander in the field. If that be the case, I want to express, at any rate on my own behalf, and I believe on behalf of a great many other hon. Members, my very great disquiet at such a suggestion. The hon. Member for Cheetham stated as well as I can, the horror that many of us would feel at the use of this weapon in circumstances which were not such that our own moral conscience was satisfied that there was no alternative. I cannot put it more fairly than that.
I must not exaggerate this matter. I notice in the only information that we have had on this subject in this House this evening, and I have noticed in the short extracts I have been able to cull from the evening newspapers, that a note has been added that the use of the atom bomb must depend upon the decision of the President of the United States of America. That I believe to be the exact case.
I am also informed—and I ask the Prime Minister for confirmation, because he must have been as interested, if not shocked, by some of these statements as we have been—I ask the Prime Minister whether it is true that a statement has since been issued from the White House at Washington indicating the exact legal position under which the atom bomb can be sanctioned. I believe such a statement has been issued—I have only picked it up from hearsay—and if so, it may satisfy us that no great development of policy has taken place in this connection. If so, I think the House deserves to be reassured on this point, and I hope the Prime Minister will turn his attention to what I am saying.
A further statement made in this release which we have had so rapidly this evening in this country is that the President has stated that the Commander-in-Chief may use bombers in Manchuria on the Manchurian bases. In this case, in the reports that have come to my attention, there is the reservation that the use of such aircraft would be subject to the approval of the United Nations. That is, I think, an accurate account of what we have received as ordinary people in this country.
1428
All I can say about that is that the use of aircraft in Manchuria may indeed be necessary if we examine realistically the serious strategic position which has undoubtedly arisen in North Korea at the present time. For example, even if we were to hold the "waist" or "neck," or whatever thin part of the body we call that section of Korea, it might be the fact that the Chinese would not "let up." If they did not "let up" on our troops, it might be necessary to take action to safeguard the safety of our lines and the lives of our own troops of the United Nations. So we must not make any decisions tonight which would prejudice any future developments.
I can only say that this question of extending the war into Manchuria by the use of aircraft, subject to the approval of the United Nations, raises the whole question of whether this war with China can in any foreseeable future be brought to an end. Therefore, it is a matter of first-class political and strategic importance. I say this to the Prime Minister and to the Government: of one thing I am certain, and it is that the British people as a whole wish to be sure, before their fate is decided in this respect, that they are helping to decide their own fate. This leads me to say that there is a very heavy responsibility upon His Majesty's Government, and the Prime Minister this evening in closing this debate, to reassure our people that things are not running away from them in a direction which the British public does not want.
The hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) asked earlier in the debate yesterday, in an intervention, how we knew that the British Government had not been consulted, or had exercised their influence and had been turned down? The hon. Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo), introduced into his speech what Walter Savage Landor might have described as an imaginary conversation between himself and the President of the United States of America in which the President is alleged to have said:
"We agree with you; we should like to do that; but we are not sure how far we can carry our Republicans with us'."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 1265.]
Both those hon. Members have raised questions of substance. They have raised the question of the extent of consultations existing between His Majesty's

1429
Government and the United States Administration at the present time. I cannot answer the points raised by the hon. Member for Davenport or by the hon. Member for Reading, South. I have no personal information of the consultations which have taken place, nor would it be proper if I had had, but I cannot believe—and I say this in favour of the Government—that the Foreign Secretary and the Government have not exerted to the full the influence which they ought to exert in the present difficult circumstances. We look to the Prime Minister for a reassurance on that point.
It is quite clear, I think, that our association with the United States of America must be knitted very much closer than it is at the present time. Very rarely in my career have I been delighted, and, indeed, satisfied, to quote from an article in "Tribune," particularly when it comes from one of the recent pamphlets in the first of which I was featured in a rather unfavourable light. The second "Tribune" pamphlet, entitled "Full Speed Ahead—A Socialist Foreign Policy," starts by giving the reasons why the Labour Government should associate with the United States and why this course is "right and unavoidable." I am not quite sure about the word "unavoidable," because I like that course myself. But that course, it says, is "unavoidable."
"At the same time"—
this article continues—
"we believe that a good case can he made for the view that Britain has tended to underplay her hand in this association."
However much the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister may feel that they have played their hand, we feel, and I think there is a feeling in the country, that that hand has not been played strongly enough up to date.
This leads me to a proposal which was made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington, that contact should be made in Washington or at Lake Success, New York, at a far higher level than it has been made hitherto. If the Prime Minister were to respond to this request by my right hon. Friends, if he were to consider that a senior Member of the Government, no less, perhaps, than himself, were to go to Washington or to New York at this
1430
time, he would, I am convinced carry with him the good will and good wishes of a great section of this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I believe that if the Prime Minister, or the Foreign Secretary, or some senior Member of the Government were to charge himself with such a mission, he would help to restore confidence in the minds of the people of this country that, as I said earlier, they were helping to decide their own fate and their own future destiny. I feel convinced that this is a matter which requires personal handling at the highest level.
I have one or two points to add to what I have said about the situation in Korea, but I hope that the Prime Minister will answer some of the major anxieties which have been caused by this release of news this evening, which I have attempted to put in perspective without exaggerating, and which may well prove to be not so alarming as we thought at first sight.
I want to add simply on the position in Korea that we should be very much relieved if we had from the Prime Minister an assurance that our troops who are fighting there have their needs met at the present time. Our hearts are with them in their present struggle. They have been, as we have seen in the newspapers, sent "into the gap," and we all know what that may mean. We know what it may mean in casualties, and we know how many hearts in England—and, indeed, in Scotland—are thinking of them tonight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Let us have an assurance from the Government that our men are being supported with the clothing, materials and supplies that they need.
I do not wish to raise any controversy on this subject, but let us be assured also that it is possible, under circumstances of difficulty which we have noticed in civil aviation at present, for proper air transportation of mail, supplies, Red Cross supplies and so forth, from this country. If the Prime Minister can give us this assurance, he will comfort many people tonight.
Now I want to pass to questions relating to policy at the United Nations. I have raised questions of policy as they affect strategy and the direct relationship between Governments which still remains, so to speak, the direct drive or belt on which policy is conducted. I now want to refer to policy at the United Nations,

1431
because it is from the United Nations that the moral authority for this campaign emanates. I must say that I agree with the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) that the statement of the Under-Secretary brought no clarity at all into the position about the recognition of China or her association with us on the Security Council or in the United Nations. I believe the legal position to be above doubt, namely, that, as a permanent member, once the Government of China are recognised, they can take part in the discussions in the United Nations.
The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross)The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross) indicated assent.
Mr. Butler: The Attorney-General nods his head and gives me that confidence which he can always impart to those who seek his legal advice. If that be the position, there is not very much argument about this matter; but I think that we should preserve a moral position vis-à-vis China at present. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington quoted some words of the Under-Secretary, who said, on 20th November:
"I think that the action taken by the Chinese is inexcusable and unforgivable."—OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th November, 1950; Vol. 481, c. 165.]
When the hon. Member for Maldon asks us to avoid unnecessary provocation, I should like to ask our troops fighting in North Korea whether they have not had provocation enough from the troops of Red China. That does not mean that I want to exaggerate what the hon. Member said, because by provocation I believe that he meant the extension of the bombing into Manchuria and something rather over the present odds. If I can accept his words at that, there is more sense in them.
I should like to make it clear that we do not hasten to welcome China at present unless she can prove that her policy of aggression is not a permanent one. In particular, we should like to ask the Tibetans and the Dalai Lama, and those who are at present packing up their belongings to flee before the Chinese incursion, whether they regard themselves as having been unduly provoked. We must remember, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington
1432
said, quoting Mr. Patel, that China at present is drunk with power. Those who are drunk with power are not easily appeased.
I want also to avoid going to the other extreme and following up the language of Mr. Warren Austin at the United Nations and arraigning China as an aggressor before the United Nations. I think, putting it plainly, that it would be disastrous to use the machinery of the United Nations for the purpose of extending rather than curtailing the war. I hope that the influence of His Majesty's Government has been exercised in this connection to use the machinery of the United Nations to curtail the conflict and to bring it nearer to an end rather than, by sticking to legal formula, to extend it and make it more permanent.
There is a great deal of other material which I could use, but I want to leave an opportunity to the Prime Minister to reply to the points, which I think are of great importance to the country and which I made in the earlier part of my remarks. I shall confine myself to one or two further observations before I conclude. We feel that, besides defining our objectives in Korea, allaying anxieties about our objectives in extending or curtailing the war, besides making clear what our policy is at the United Nations, the Government must indicate that they have practical plans for handling the inter-governmental problems of the free democracies on a global or world plane.
We have previously mentioned the need for avoiding the overlapping of machinery. It was as early as November, 1945, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington pressed for some European integration of the nations. It was not until March, 1948, that the Brussels Pact was signed. The Fulton speech which presaged the whole Atlantic arrangements was made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford in March, 1946. It was not until April, 1949, that the Atlantic Pact was signed. At other times, I and other speakers have pressed for specific pacts or arrangements whereby the problems in the Far East could be brought more into the picture. We have welcomed the progress made, but we have been astonished at the slowness of the operation, and we now want to be assured that the strategic, the economic and the political policies of the free

1433
democracies, particularly the United States and the United Kingdom, are run on a world basis.
At the present moment, I am convinced that there is overlapping of the Atlantic Pact machinery and the Brussels Pact machinery, and I am certain that, when we want to move a unit from one part of the world, say, Canada, to the Far East or elsewhere, there is not the necessary machinery on the eastern side of the circuit to carry it through without overlapping and delay. It is, in fact, essential to make this machinery on a world basis. At present, we appear to be playing chess on our side and preparing to feel our way, while the great tactician at the Kremlin seems to have the central control of events. We have got somehow to put our machinery on such a basis that we can get decisions speedily and satisfactorily. In this connection, I was very glad to note the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head), who always contributes to our debates in a most enlightened manner, and I also trust that the recommendations made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford on the subject of the Chiefs of Staff Committee will be followed up by the Government.
I had intended to refer to the need for bringing the whole of South-East Asia into this plan, and to make some observations about the Middle East, but time does not allow. I only beg that this race between independence and the growth of nationalism, on the one hand, and the free way of life and Communist exploitation of poverty in the nations of South-East Asia, on the other, will be won, thanks to this great new Commonwealth plan and in other ways, by those of us who favour the doctrine of independence and dealing with poverty in such a way as we can apply our economic resources to mitigating its worst effects. If we win that race in a vital part of the world, it must lead to a greater understanding of where we are tending in this great world situation.
Political statesmanship, or what is called diplomacy in its higher ranges, is lagging behind constructive economic thought. At the same time, the military art, however successful it may have been practised in recent operations, cannot be successful unless the framework in which it is to operate is decided by statesmen. We have to ask ourselves whether states-
1434
men can influence events or whether we are mere corks on the surface of the turbulent tidal waters. I refuse to think that, with the tradition of statesmanship of this country, shared by all sides and descended from our own traditions in the past, we cannot succeed in finding a way out. If we are to have negotiations, as suggested by my right hon. Friends, they must be from strength, but we must never compromise with our liberties or with the liberties of the free world. We must remember the words of the Inquisitor in Dostoievsky's "The Brothers Karamazov," in which he said:
"No science will give men bread as long as they remain free.… Men will become convinced, too, that they can never be free, for they are weak, vicious, worthless, and rebellious.… We shall triumph, and then we shall plan the universal happiness of man. We shall persuade them that they will only become free when they renounce their freedom to us and submit to us. We shall set them to work, but in their leisure hours we shall make their life like a child's game."
We cannot live in circumstances like that, but we can save the world and ourselves if we keep our unity and increase our strength. Let this warning spur us forward in the gigantic constructive efforts which we must make together.
9.30 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I am sure that the whole House was delighted with the speech of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler). I did not find anything really with which to disagree in the main propositions he put before us, and, indeed, it has been the note of this two-days' debate that there has been remarkable agreement on the broad lines of the policy we desire to see pursued and the ends we hope to achieve. I would apologise to the House for not having been in attendance as much as I could have wished during the debate, but events are passing very rapidly—the pressure is rather heavy—and I have to attend to them.
I thought that the debate, though on a serious subject, was calm. Although it recognised that we live in serious times there was no hysteria, and I thought that it was generally on a high level both as regards back benches and Front Benches. Might I say a word of particular welcome for the birthday speech of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill)?

1435
There were really three main themes running through the discussion. First of all, there was the obvious longing of everybody for the preservation of peace. I cannot believe that even anybody from behind the Iron Curtain could have failed to detect that note. We all desire to see the war in Korea brought to an end as speedily as possible with the assertion of the authority of the United Nations against aggression, and I should like to join in the tribute that has been paid to the troops of America, the British Commonwealth and others who are fighting this difficult battle. May I at this point assure the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden that all British troops in Korea are fully clothed and equipped for fighting in cold weather conditions. Adequate reinforcements are in Korea, and they have all the weapons and equipment which they need to enable the troops to carry out their tasks.
We want to bring the war in Korea to an end, but we want to get a settlement of the Korean problem, and that means that we also want to get a settlement of our relations and the relations of the rest of the world with China, because, after all, what we want to see is a real settlement in this part of the world. It is no good thinking that we can get something temporary which will relieve the unfortunate Koreans of the fear that what has happened to them once may happen again. Chinese and Koreans have got to live side by side, and therefore we want to get a settlement, not only of this immediate Korean problem, but also of the problem of China. I shall have a word to say a little later on some aspects of that.
I should like to say here that the second big problem which has emerged in this discussion, which was opened by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, was the question of how we can get on terms with Russia. It is our desire, reiterated over and over again, that we, in concert with our Allies, should be able to come to a settlement with Russia. There has been emphasis, over and over again, on all the difficulties, and we know them, but, as my right hon. Friend said, we would not reject any possibility of discussion, provided there is not going to be merely futile discussion We must deal with the realities of the situation and, as my right hon. Friend explained, we
1436
are now working out with our friends an agenda for such a meeting.
I think that the third point that emerged in the debate was that we all realise that an essential element for getting such discussion should be that we should have adequate strength in order that we might deal on reasonably level terms; and that is why we have been pressing so hard for the building up of Atlantic defence. I was glad to see the statement by the President of the United States with regard to a Supreme Commander. It has taken a long time, but do not let it be thought that it is always the fault of this Government. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden contrasted the position of the democracies with that of a monolithic state like Russia. There always is that advantage on the side of autocracy, because we have to work by agreement, and it has taken a long time, far longer than we wished, to try and get agreement. On such a matter as the Atlantic Pact there has to be work for months and months before we can achieve anything of that kind and it eventually emerges into daylight.
It is a feature in all our debates, almost inevitably, that speakers in this House, or sometimes in another place, make very valuable suggestions that are widely welcomed, but it is not infrequent for those suggestions to be the very policies which my right hon. Friend has been advocating with our friends and Allies. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) knows, how often does one enter into discussions with one's friends—and the matter is naturally confidential at that stage when discussions go on—and then the idea which is being thrashed out comes to light in a speech. No doubt, the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington has sometimes said, "I wish I could have said something about that long ago and perhaps then they would not think that it had come from somebody else."
Mr. Eden: It does not matter where it comes from so long as it happens.
The Prime Minister: Exactly. Take, for instance, the very valuable suggestion the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington made with regard to the position in Korea, and the conception of holding a line somewhere and getting a kind of breathing space there so that we could

1437
have a discussion. We ourselves have put forward that kind of view, the idea of a demilitarised zone, of a halt so that one could get discussion. But should the Chinese prove ready—I hope they will—to act by peaceful means rather than by force, I think a suggestion of that kind is just one of the things that might form part of the negotiations, and I welcome suggestions of that kind.
I think we are all conscious today of the very great burden that the United States of America is bearing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] They are bearing the heaviest share in fighting for the principles and ideals of the United Nations, and I think we ought to have the very greatest sympathy with the American families who are bereaved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is a very heavy loss. We have had losses ourselves which we deplore, but the American losses are very heavy. I am quite sure that the preservation of the free and democratic life of the peoples of the world depends on the closest cooperation between the Commonwealth and the United States of America. Let us not allow anyone to drive a wedge between us. There is a great responsibility on the British Commonwealth and the United States of America, acting of course with a great number of other States. We welcome the efforts of the others who are supporting U.N.O., but we all know that there is a big responsibility inevitably on the United States of America and Great Britain.
I do not think it is true to say that we do not use to the full the weight of influence which we can command. That again is, of course, a matter in which in the ordinary course of diplomacy one does not get up in the House of Commons and say, "Another State did this or that because they were influenced by what we said." One cannot obviously give any evidence of that. But I would say that there is close and constant daily consultation with our friends on all these matters. The right hon. Member for Woodford mentioned in particular the question of closer coordination of military planning between ourselves and the United States authorities. In particular he suggested that the Combined Chiefs of Staff should be reestablished That is a point well worth thinking of, but I should not like any-
1438
one to think that because the Combined Chiefs of Staff was formally abolished there was a cessation of all consultation and co-ordination. That has not been the case.
As the House knows, Lord Tedder, who enjoys the full confidence of His Majesty's Government and is one of our most experienced strategists, is resident in Washington. There are standing arrangements for the exchange of views with the United States Government and, indeed, with other friendly governments, but particularly closely with the United States Government on all levels; and the views of His Majesty's Government are always made known to the United States Government in regard to general strategy in Korea and, indeed, elsewhere.
That system of consultation can be and is supplemented as need arises by personal visits at all levels between our respective military and Service advisers. That system is flexible. Where adjustments are needed they will be made, but in all those matters we have to consider existing arrangements under the North Atlantic Treaty and the position of our partners in the Commonwealth. But the system does work because we have common purposes and common ideals. The right hon. Member for Saffron Waldon talked about overlapping, I think, as between the Atlantic Treaty and the Brussels Treaty. I agree there has been something of that kind, because the Brussels Treaty preceded the Atlantic Treaty and we are in the process of trying to smooth out those difficulties.
There is another matter to which I should like to refer—a comment by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington about progress in rearmament. It was suggested that it was going slowly. We authorised expenditure of £200 million as a first instalment. Considerably more than half that total sum has been converted into firm orders and the placing of the rest is well in hand. In addition, we have given authority for placing such further orders as are necessary to maintain and create adequate productive capacity to ensure the fulfilment of the planned programme over the next three years.
A further £250 million worth of orders has already been authorised. This covers the whole of the aircraft for delivery in the first two years of the programme and

1439
of such aircraft for delivery in the third year as it is necessary to order now to ensure the creation of new production lines. There have been advanced orders for machinery and, in the Admiralty programme, for new anti-submarine and mine-sweeping vessels; and action has been taken to ensure that our existing capacity of production for tanks shall be used to the full, and there is a special inquiry into the creation of new capacity. A meeting has been held with representatives of industry to give them preliminary indication of the scope of the programme, and that is being followed by the supply of further information. That matter is marching.
The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden referred to a statement which appeared on the tape as having been made by President Truman. He is reported to have said at his Press conference today that the use of the atomic bomb in Korea was under active consideration, although he hoped its use would not be necessary. He is further reported to have said that the choice of weapons was a matter for the military commander in the field. I understand from His Majesty's Ambassador in Washington that a correction has since been issued. I think it is now on the tape. It makes it clear that under the MacMahon Act the decision to use the bomb can only be taken by the United States executive after political consideration. There would therefore seem to be no question of a decision of this kind being taken solely by the military authorities. In any case, His Majesty's Government consider that a decision of such grave import could not be taken on behalf of the United Nations without the fullest prior consultation with those member States who are at present participating in international police action in Korea.
During these last few days events have moved very rapidly in Korea. The whole position has changed; indeed, it has been changing from hour to hour and the intervention of large Chinese forces has raised new problems. The Government have been giving very close consideration to all those issues raised. I should like to say than on all those matters our relationship with our American friends is very close and very cordial. The ambassadors, of
1440
course, on either side are very valuable links. The Foreign Secretary and the American Secretary of State have had meetings in the spring and meetings in October, and they have established very close and intimate relations. In the same way the Minister of Defence has recently visited the United States and talked with General Marshall.
We do believe that it is essential in these matters that the written word should always be reinforced as far as possible with personal contacts, and it has been present to our minds that a renewal of personal contact between the President of the United States of America and myself might at this stage be useful. I have, therefore, proposed to President Truman that I should visit him in order that we might, in an intimate way, take a wide survey of the problems which face us today. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I believe that such an interchange of views might be of advantage to both countries and to the cause of peace. We have not yet received any reply to these proposals, but I am hoping to get agreement, and if it is agreed I shall lose no time in going over to the United States of America. I last saw President Truman in 1945. I am quite sure that visits of this kind are useful, that we can understand each other's minds.
I believe it will be of enormous help to me to have had this debate in the House of Commons, because I think this House in the last two days has so very, very fully reflected the views, the hopes, the anxieties, and the resolution of the people of this country. I am sure that the people of this country are resolved on peace. They are also resolved in support of the United Nations and the prevention of aggression. They are resolved to do their utmost to see that war does not spread, and they are resolved, I believe, that no one should put asunder the brotherhood of the nations. They are seeking for peace, and trying to establish it, not only in the political and the military fields, but, as the right hon. Gentleman said so well, in the economic field, in order that we can deal with the causes of war as well as the actual dangers of war which we have to face.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

POTTERY (JAPANESE COMPETITION)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Royle.]
9.55 p.m.
Mr. A. Edward Davies: I desire to draw the attention of the House to a matter which, coming after the important affairs we have recently been discussing, may seem very domestic and of much less interest and importance. Nevertheless, I think that, when our story has been told, our action in bringing it to the House tonight will be fully justified.
Last Thursday, at Question Time, I raised with the President of the Board of Trade a subject which concerned the effect of Japanese pottery competition as it was revealing itself in the dollar markets in which British pottery exporters have to compete. I had hoped that we might have had a little more time tonight to consider not only this special commodity, pottery, in which we are interested, but the whole of the commercial developments as they affect a number of industries in this country, in relation to Japan.
I hope that I shall be excused, and that my colleagues who are supporting me will be excused also, if what we are saying tonight seems like special pleading. The question to which we directed attention last Thursday related to certain trade practices which have been brought to our knowledge by individual manufacturers of pottery in this country, and by the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation. It concerns the production of articles of close resemblance to British manufactures and which could be said to be copies of designs, patterns and colour schemes that are almost entirely the work of British people, at great cost in terms of research and experiment.
These products from Japan are being offered in the dollar markets, particularly in the United States of America, at anything from one-third to one-eighth, and even less, of the prices at which British products are being sold in the United States. It will be known that our exports of pottery go to the United States, Canada, the West Indies and the Bermudas, and that they have brought in a useful contribution in dollars to this country.
1442
We appreciate that the extent of the competition may not have developed fully, but we would remind the hon. Gentleman who represents the Board of Trade tonight that this is not a new matter. The attention of his Department has been called to this subject over a period of time, and some 18 months ago it was a matter of correspondence with the President of the Board of Trade. I have it reliably from the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation that the facts are well known in his Department, and especially to the regional control.
When the problem was put before the right hon. Gentleman, he asked for details so that he could pursue his inquiries, as we hoped he would, in Tokio with the organisation known as S.C.A.J.P. I do not know, and perhaps my hon. Friend will tell us, whether he has received any direct evidence from the manufacturers. I am informed that the British have been in communication direct with the General Headquarters in Tokio. A letter was sent some time ago to General MacArthur—
It being Ten o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Royle.]
Mr. Davies: In this letter, General MacArthur's attention was drawn to the deliberate copying of British patterns and decorations and to the fact that the average price of the Japanese products was about one-third of their British equivalents which, in their opinion, did not seem to be reasonable competition. A reply to this communication has been received from General Headquarters in Tokio, which, I understand, amounts briefly to a request for specific instances and samples. Then, it is promised that General Headquarters will take up the matter with the Japanese Ministry of Industry and Commerce. My information from this reliable body, the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation, is that samples of Japanese-decorated china and British ware from which they have been copied have been sent to Tokio, and certain correspondence has ensued, which I think ranges round the problem of what is a fair price, and so on.
May I make it quite clear that, while we are concerned that a fair price should

1443
be obtained for our products, and we do not think that the Japanese are competing fairly on that basis alone, we are primarily concerned with this practice of copying our own models which are the result of research and hard work in this country. I produced last Thursday some evidence of what is happening. I produced one or two models to show that people have been employed in this country to copy types of English lines, that great work has been done in placing these products upon the market, and that they have been made available in the dollar areas for sale and have been sold to a large extent. What happened was that in a few months' time we found that products almost exactly the same in pattern and line were appearing at much reduced cost. It is with that aspect that we are mainly concerned this evening.
I want to ask what can be done by the Board of Trade to help us. What can be done, for example, in terms of copyright? Is there some advice to be given to the manufacturers that they should try to get their products copyrighted in America, and would that afford any protection? Can any action be taken with the United States Government to safeguard these commodities which are produced, as we think, under reasonable conditions in this country, as against the comparatively unfair conditions in Japan? Has any investigations been conducted in America to ascertain how this kind of practice is arising? It is said that American merchants have sent some of the English products to Japan and have got similar wares back at a very much reduced cost. I give that information for what it is worth; I have no evidence to confirm it, but that is what is reported to me.
I have a statement given to me by the director of a firm in North Staffordshire that in his view there are Japanese commercial representatives in America who pick up these products and send them to Tokio. In a few months we get almost the exact models coming back. I do not want to weary the House, but I have in my hand an English model which was the result of great research and hard work by a clever young woman well known in the pottery industry, and this model was put on the market. Some of these models represent a town clerk, a parish beadle, a
1444
lord mayor's coachman, and "mine host" at the inn.
Dr. Barnett Stross: And the Speaker of the House of Commons?
Mr. Davies: We have not got one yet of the Speaker of the House of Commons.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Nor of the Leader of the Opposition?
Mr. Davies: These products are all types peculiar to this country. This work has been copied, but the product is an inferior article, although that is noticeable only to the discerning eye.
We want to know what the Board of Trade are doing in the matter, or whether they can do anything about this deliberate copying. I will not say much about fair conditions, because I hope that some of my hon. Friends will have an opportunity to enlarge upon that subject. Having produced the evidence in a tangible form, I hope that the Board of Trade will give us some information on what can be done. Are they satisfied that proper steps are being taken in Japan to safeguard our interests? We do not ask for a privileged position. We recognise that the Japanese have to live, but we are asking that ordinary commercial practice should be observed.
10.7 p.m.
Dr. Barnett Stross: I am sure the House has listened with interest to what my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent. North (Mr. Edward Davies) has said. I shall limit my remarks very narrowly indeed—to the question of the effect upon our designers and artists of this exact imitation of the products of their imgination and work. It would not be unreasonable to use a stronger term and say that it is shameless forgery. The reason why these particular samples are chosen for duplication and distribution in the United States is because they are popular. They portray aspects of our earlier life, and they are products of very careful and exact research as to shape, custom, colour and general design.
It seems doubly objectionable that Japanese manufacturers should be able, without let or hindrance, to imitate them and send them into our markets. I

1445
should like to put on record that I feel that this kind of imitation is theft of our designer's ingenuity, training and weeks and months of patient research. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to give us a real assurance that he will pursue every possible endeavour to put an end to this exploitation of the work of our designers and of our industry by Japanese manufacturers.
We all want to see the standard of the Japanese workers steadily rising, but we do not consider that this is a suitable method to achieve that end; nor are they likely to get our good will if this is the method they pursue. Japan has traditions of the past, and we do not believe that their artists and designers are so bankrupt of ideas that they must pilfer from our people. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree with me that our people have every moral and legal right to protection, and I beg him to say so when he replies.
10.10 p.m.
Mr. Shepherd: I am sure the House will appreciate the motives which have inspired the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mr. Edward Davies), and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), to protest at the pilfering of designs which is going on by Japanese pottery manufacturers, causing anxiety to those in the potteries in this country. I have very great admiration for the skill of the designers and workers in the potteries, because from most dismal and appalling physical conditions they turn out articles of great beauty. It is always a mystery to me that from such terribly forbidding places as potteries articles of such exquisite design are produced.
However, I urge the House to have some regard to the realities of the situation. The stealing of other people's ideas is a very widespread practice, and is by no means restricted to the Japanese. Some people in this country even imitate the oratory of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, and it would be perfectly untrue to say that we here do not take advantage of the ideas which emanate from outside. In fact, I believe the Board of Trade facilitate the importing of specimen samples without duty and Purchase Tax in order that manufacturers in this country may
1446
have an opportunity of seeing what other people are producing. Therefore, I do not think we ought to be too narrow in our views on this matter, although I agree that if I created a design for pottery I should be terribly annoyed if anyone imitated it.
What can be done to stop them? I think very little. An international convention might be arranged, but it would be terribly easy, if there were not real physical and legal difficulties in the way, to get round them. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North, has produced an article of complicated design, but if the Board of Trade, by dint of great energy, persuaded the Japanese and the Americans to agree to some international convention, it would not prevent the Japanese manufacturer from copying the designs by taking steps which would be outside the scope of any such convention. Obviously, it could be done very easily indeed. Therefore, while I want to prevent the Japanese from copying our ideas, a practical scheme to stop it presents almost insuperable difficulty. In fact, even within our own country, it has become a problem. There are plenty of people who will not patent a process because they feel that by patenting and publishing the process they are giving an open invitation to someone to find a way round. Many people prefer not to patent a process rather than open the way for others to imitate it.
There is one subject on which I hope the Secretary for Overseas Trade will comment when he replies. It always puzzles me why the Japanese prices are so very silly. I have seen cotton cloth, the price of which is less than half the British price. If I were in business selling against a competitor, I should like to beat him, but I would not sell at a price which was as low as half his price. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North, has told us that the Japanese are selling pottery at one-third of the British prices. I should like the Secretary for Overseas Trade to enlighten us on why this thing happens, because it is a very remarkable thing that a nation exporting here should be selling at one-third of the price at which these articles are sold in the United Kingdom. I do not think the Japanese would have any difficulty in beating our prices and we could not blame them for that, but why they put forward these silly prices is beyond me.

1447
I have said enough to show that while we want to stop these people stealing our designs if we can, the practical difficulties are very great. I hope the Secretary for Overseas Trade will do all he can to try to keep the Japanese from quoting these ridiculous prices for their products. We do not want to stop them making a living, and we certainly want to see their conditions of employment raised, but we do not want to have the Japanese selling at the kind of prices that they are selling at in Great Britain today.
10.16 p.m.
Mr. Ellis Smith: I wish to associate myself with all that has been said tonight. It is very important that we should have as full a reply as possible, and I shall therefore be brief. Before the war we raised this matter time after time. I admit that it is not an easy matter to deal with, and it applies to more than one industry. This grievance applies also in the textile and silk industries, which are the other two principal industries affected.
The annoying part of the particular example cited tonight is that beautiful pottery of this kind cannot be produced without a large amount of work being put in before the production stage. First, a large amount of research work takes place, then the artists, with whom my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mr. Edward Davies) has close and friendly associations, have to produce sketches, which are submitted to the overseers, and when they are accepted models have to be made. A tremendous amount of work has to be put in before the final product appears, and it is most unfair for copies of this kind of work to be made in this way.
There is another aspect about which we are very concerned. In this country we have what is known as a fair wages clause, under which firms cannot employ people below a certain wage. Before the war it was found that in Japan, in particular, and in other parts of Europe, people were employed under coolie conditions. We have great sympathy with them in their difficulties, but at the same time, we in this country have certain standards which are accepted by organised employers and organised work-people; we are contributing to the main-
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tenance of social services and our standard of living, and if these are to be undermined by this kind of imitation it is time we had an international fair wages clause.
While I do not expect that to be dealt with this evening, I wish to place it on record so that the Secretary for Overseas Trade and his Department might also give consideration to the need for the United States and our country to consider whether we should not agree between ourselves that a fair wages standard, or fair conditions standard, should be operated in our two countries. Products from other countries which are apt to undermine our standards should be prohibited. In addition, we ought also to consider raising this at the International Labour Conference so that all the members of that conference can devote their attention to this menace to the reasonable standards which have been built up in countries like our own.
10.19 p.m.
The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. Bottomley): I join in the general tribute paid to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mr. Edward Davies), for raising the subject matter of this debate. As has been said, it has been debated many times, and Questions have been asked in the House. I assure him, as I have done before, that the Government are fully alive to the threat of this unfair Japanese competition, and share the anxiety of the industry.
We have to face the fact that for the moment we are rather fortunate in that the volume of the Japanese export trade is about half what it was pre-war. At the same time, Japanese industry is not yet at its maximum because it is far from having recovered from the devastation caused by the war. We have this consolation, however, that from this present limited production and, of course from any increase, Japan has to cater for a larger population than before the war. Also, on the assets side the trade unions are much stronger. On the other hand, Japan has lost two of her greatest markets in China and Manchuria, and therefore her competition is concentrated on fewer markets.
Japanese pottery is not being produced at the rate it was before the war. The industry is only working at about 70 per

1449
cent. capacity, its machinery is mostly out of date and has only partly been renewed, and it would be extremely difficult for the industry to make great improvements because of its own financial and economic difficulties. This year the percentage of production is about 46 per cent. of what it was in 1937. We must realise that Japan, like us, is aiming at a balanced economy and that the United States taxpayer is paying about 300 million dollars a year to keep the Japanese economy viable. So the U.S.A. has quite rightly, a great say in the development of Japan. We have, of course, a strong case to make in the field of strategy. Where an industry is being developed which may be a threat to our own security we can justly make representations.
I do not share the pessimism of the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd). I think something can be done. In connection with copying, I agree with the word "fraudulent" which has been used. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North, referred to specific cases. I know of one or two and perhaps I may cite one which is being investigated at the moment. Someone in the United States sent a sample of one of our exports to Japan and asked a manufacturer there to copy it. If such a case is brought to our notice, we can take prompt action, particularly if the design is registered in the United States.
Once we have taken that action, and it is reported, the Ministry of International Trade and Industry in Japan will put on an export control. So I stress the fact that we should have all the available information supplied to us as soon as possible. If, for some reason, it can be shown that a United States firm is involved in this unfair competition, then we can take it up with the United States Federal Trade Commission. Let me add that our Commercial Minister in Washington is always ready to give assistance to industry as and when it is required.
Also in Japan there is a law dealing with unfair competition under which the Japanese authorities give protection against fraudulent trade marks and copying by their manufacturers. Under that law, if a person is proved guilty, he can either be sent to prison for three years or be fined 200,000 yen. Let me say that the administration of General MacArthur give us all the help they can. So I think
1450
that in regard to copying of design and the fraudulent use of foreign trade marks, we have some remedies at hand which can be used. I hope this will allay the anxiety on behalf of artists, expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross).
My hon. Friend the Member lor Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith), spoke about labour conditions, which really are the basis of the unfair competition. The low labour costs are something which we cannot meet, but, as I said earlier, the genuine trade union movement is growing, and labour standards have been raised by, for instance, restrictions upon child labour by the administration in Japan. Furthermore, an Act of Parliament was passed in 1947 which dealt specifically with labour standards. The average increase in wages in the potteries from 1947 to June of this year, I am told, is about 700 per cent. All I can say is that as far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, it is our policy to support the Supreme Commander to raise Japanese living standards and to encourage the healthy growth of the trade union movement.
I come now to the recent trade arrangement which has been signed between the authorities in Japan and the United Kingdom Government. Under the arrangement for this year, we shall buy grey cloth for processing and re-export, raw silk, timber and food, but no pottery. The United Kingdom cannot, of course, solve this problem single-handed. It is possible that other countries who are affected will seek protection against this unfair competition, and we shall certainly join in whatever representations are made.
The point was made that the Japanese will be anxious to avoid a situation similar to that which prevailed before the war, when special action was taken by Governments to meet unfair competition from Japan. I am confident that should it be necessary, that action will be taken again, and this in itself will deter the Japanese from being too extreme in embarking on methods of competition which can be said to be unfair.
The hon. Member for Cheadle did not raise specifically the question of copying, but I mention this because of his special interest, and that of my hon. Friends, in textiles. I have just heard from our repre-

1451
sentative in Tokio that the Japanese have made definite progress in preventing the intentional or unintentional copying of foreign designs. They have a catalogue of 8,265 different designs and all members of the trade, I am told, must make it a general rule to demand a letter of guaran-
1452
tee from a buyer when taking an order for a printed design.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes past Ten o'Clock.

EDUCATION
  School Dental Service
  School Dental Service
  Teachers, Durham (N.U.T. Membership)
  Teachers, Durham (N.U.T. Membership)
  Burnham Committee (Recommendations)
  Burnham Committee (Recommendations)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Newsprint
  Newsprint
  Nylon Stockings (Newton Abbot)
  Nylon Stockings (Newton Abbot)
  Pottery Factories, North Staffordshire
  Pottery Factories, North Staffordshire
  Knitwear (Small Retailers)
  Knitwear (Small Retailers)
  SWINE FEVER
  SWINE FEVER
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Single-Plot Owners (Development Charge)
  Single-Plot Owners (Development Charge)
  Central Land Board (Forms)
  Central Land Board (Forms)
  Price Control Order (Availability)
  Price Control Order (Availability)
METROPOLITAN POLICE
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
  Complaint
  Complaint
HOUSING
  Waiting Lists
  Waiting Lists
  Liverpool
  Liverpool
  Electrical Heating
  Electrical Heating
  Allocation, Smallburgh
  Allocation, Smallburgh
  Dorran Houses
  Dorran Houses
  Building Licences (War-Damaged Areas)
  Building Licences (War-Damaged Areas)
  Condemned Houses, Wales
  Condemned Houses, Wales
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Orthoptic Treatment, Hull
  Orthoptic Treatment, Hull
  Nurses (Recruitment)
  Nurses (Recruitment)
  Consultant Anaesthetist (Sessions of Work)
  Consultant Anaesthetist (Sessions of Work)
  Hearing Aids
  Hearing Aids
  Hospitals (Patients' Travelling Expenses)
  Hospitals (Patients' Travelling Expenses)
  Hospital Registrars
  Hospital Registrars
  Whitchurch and Ely Hospital Committee
  Whitchurch and Ely Hospital Committee
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Aged Persons (Hot Meals)
  Aged Persons (Hot Meals)
  Water Undertakings (Tap Specification)
  Water Undertakings (Tap Specification)
  Poliomyelitis, Wales
  Poliomyelitis, Wales
  RATES AND EXPENDITURE, EBBW VALE
  RATES AND EXPENDITURE, EBBW VALE
  IRON AND STEEL CORPORATION (STAFF)
  IRON AND STEEL CORPORATION (STAFF)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (MINISTRY'S STAFF)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (MINISTRY'S STAFF)
  BROADCASTS (RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE)
  BROADCASTS (RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE)
  SWEET MANUFACTURERS (SUGAR)
  SWEET MANUFACTURERS (SUGAR)
  BRITISH ARMY (RECRUITS, WYCOMBE)
  BRITISH ARMY (RECRUITS, WYCOMBE)
  BRITISH CONSULATES, CHINA
  BRITISH CONSULATES, CHINA
  ROADS (CYCLE TRACKS)
  ROADS (CYCLE TRACKS)
  CAMEROONS DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION
  CAMEROONS DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION
  MALAYA (MEDICAL OFFICERS)
  MALAYA (MEDICAL OFFICERS)
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  CHRISTMAS RECESS
  4.4 p.m.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have an announcement to make regarding the date and duration of the Christmas Recess. If we have concluded our Business, as we hope to be able to do by that date, we shall move the adjournment of your Lordships' House for Public Business on Thursday afternoon, December 14, or the following day about noon, and we shall reassemble on Tuesday, January 23. But I must not be understood as giving any firm promise that we shall be able to adhere to the dates I have mentioned, which must, of course, depend upon the requirements of Public Business.

TITHE ACT, 1936 (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide, in lieu of the obligation imposed by the Tithe Act, 1936, to register all annuities charged thereby, for registration in selected districts, to amend and repeal certain provisions of that Act, and to make further provision with respect to certain matters connected therewith. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la,—(Lord Pakenham.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

SOLICITORS BILL
4.6 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I think I am on a comparatively easy wicket this afternoon in introducing this little Bill. In some senses perhaps it could be described as a second innings upon that
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wicket because, save for a minor alteration as to the date, this is precisely the same. Bill which was introduced as a Private Member's Bill by Lord Schuster during the last Session. I then blessed the Bill, and said that although I thought it was a very good Bill I could not promise that it would get through, because I did not know what line was to be taken about Private Members' Bills. In fact, the line taken was not favourable, either to this Bill in particular or to Private Members' Bills in general. Therefore, I am now introducing the same Bill into your Lordships' House, on behalf of the Government.
The Bill has passed through the other place, just as it passed this House on the last occasion when it was a Private Member's Bill, with complete unanimity and with the blessings of everybody. All I need do is to remind your Lordships of what Lord Schuster said on a previous occasion. He called attention to the fact that the object of the Bill was to put the Law Society in funds so as to enable them to carry out the functions imposed upon them by Statute for the benefit of solicitors as a whole, not merely those who happen to be members of the Law Society. There are some 2,000 or so solicitors in practice at the present time who are not members of the Law Society, but the Law Society perform on their behalf many functions under various Acts of Parliament which have made the Law Society, in effect, the nursemaid of solicitors as a whole. These functions cover the whole period of a solicitor's practising life. They are concerned with his education, his articles, his examination and his entrance upon the Roll of Solicitors after he has satisfied the examiners. They are concerned with his practising certificate and his accounts, with his discipline if he is alleged to have offended against the solicitors' code, and with the compensation of any clients who may have suffered loss through the defalcations of a solicitor or his employees.
All these tasks cost money, and all that the Law Society receive from solicitors as a whole is one pound annually from each practising solicitor and certain fees in respect of examination; and entrance upon the Solicitors' Roll. For their disciplinary functions they are also in receipt of a small grant from the Exchequer—a grant

655
which will cease to exist if the provisions of this Bill are brought into law. These receipts by no means cover the cost of performing the various functions, with the result that the balance has had to come from those solicitors who elect to become members of the Law Society and pay a subscription to the Society, and not from the whole body of the solicitors' profession. It is, therefore, the purpose of this Bill to enable the Law Society to collect from each practising solicitor an annual sum not exceeding five pounds, out of which the Law Society will be able to meet all their statutory obligations, without recourse to their own funds or the small grant to which I have just referred. The exact amount up to five pounds which the Law Society shall charge is to be fixed by the Master of the Rolls with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice and myself. As solicitors are naturally cautious people, it is also provided that should there be at any future time—I cannot envisage it at present—any difference of view between the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor of the day, then the Master of the Rolls need obtain the concurrence of only one.
My Lords, that is the Bill. Anyone who has had any acquaintance at all with the law knows how much every Department of the Government owes to the Law Society. They possess a repository of experience and knowledge which they are always ready to place at the disposal of any Government Department, and I am quite satisfied that your Lordships would be well advised to grant this Society the powers for which they are asking and to which I venture to suggest they are entitled. I beg to move.
Moved. That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
4.12 p.m.
LORD SCHUSTER: My Lords, as the noble Viscount on the Woolsack has stated, some months ago I had the honour of introducing a Bill which was, to all intents and purposes, textually the same as this Bill. It is not necessary for me now to repeat the arguments which I then used and which, indeed, the Lord Chancellor has himself used from the Woolsack, putting them very much better than I could. My only purpose in rising
656
is to thank the Lord Chancellor on behalf of the Law Society for moving the Bill this afternoon, and to wish the Bill a happy passage through this House.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

DANGEROUS DRUGS (AMENDMENT) BILL
4.13 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a Second time. The real purpose of the Bill is to prepare the way for the consolidation of the various Acts dealing with this subject. However, it has been found impossible to get a simple consolidation out of the Acts as they exist, because, since the enactment of the first Act, the Northern Ireland Parliament has been established, and subsequent to the establishment of that Parliament the Acts which have been enacted at Westminster have been divided as to reserved and transferred legislation. It had been the hope that in the process of adapting the legislation in Northern Ireland simplicity should be the order of the day; but unfortunately affairs have unavoidably become inextricably mixed and it has been found necessary to approach the Northern Ireland Government for the purpose of getting their agreement to the repeal of the Northern Ireland legislation and to the application to Northern Ireland of those parts of the United Kingdom Acts which hitherto have not been in force in Northern Ireland. As we now have the consent of the Northern Ireland Government, consolidation can now proceed.
I do not need to argue the case for the Bill, but there are one or two brief remarks that ought to be made about the respective clauses. Clause 1 carries out the repeal which I have just mentioned, and applies to Northern Ireland those parts of the United Kingdom Acts and reserved legislation which have not applied to Northern Ireland hitherto. Clause 2 deals merely with the position which has arisen as a consequence of the demise of the League of Nations and the establishment of the United Nations. Clause 3 deals with an omission or a piece of forgetfulness on the part of the draftsman when the Act of 1933 went through. This attempts to

657
bring into new legislation the phraseology that was used in the 1933 Act in the place of the term "open shop"—that is to say, by the substitution of the term "premises which are duly registered." Clause 4 is proposed as a drafting device to reserve the rights! of the Parliament of Northern Ireland to legislate in relation to the control of dangerous drugs which have been within its competence since the passing of the Government of Ireland Act of 1920. That safeguard has been found necessary as this Bill, when it becomes an Act, is going to have a very short life. Indeed, under Clause 5 there is provision that when the Bill becomes an Act it shall come into operation immediately before but on the same day as the subsequent Consolidation Bill, and shall then cease to be. So the life of this Act will be a mere moment of time. The Schedule makes merely the necessary modifications in the Dangerous Drugs Acts, 1920 and 1923, for the application of these Acts to Northern Ireland. 1 beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PENICILLIN (MERCHANT SHIPS) BILL [H.L.]
4.15 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, I should like to make a short statement arising out of a question which was put to me during the course of the Second Reading. It has reference to streptomycin and its introduction aboard ship. The only substance other than penicillin at present covered by the Penicillin Act is streptomycin, which was brought under the Act by regulation. It would be possible under the Bill for instructions as to its use to be incorporated in the ships captains' Medical Guide and for streptomycin to be carried on ships without a doctor. At the present time the Health Departments and the Ministry of Transport are not medically advised that streptomycin should be carried in this way, and it is not, therefore, the present intention that it should be. Should any other substance
658
in future be brought by regulation within the ambit of the Penicillin Act, 1947, instructions for the use of such a substance could be included in the Guide if medical advice indicated that such a course was desirable, and the substance could be carried on ships without a doctor. I beg to move that the House do resolve itself into Committee.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[THE EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Bill reported without Amendment.
House resumed.

EUROPEAN PAYMENTS UNION (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL
4.17 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of the European Payments Union (Financial Provisions) Bill. I am aware that the House has important Business to follow, and your Lordships will therefore not wish me to detain you for any great length of time. But this is a very intricate matter and if it is to be discussed at all in a manner worthy of your Lordships' House I am afraid that I must go into it in a little detail, and try to elucidate its principles in a way that will be intelligible to all, whether they have made a special study of this matter or not. The European Payments Union is an organ of the O.E.E.C, established for settling payments between member countries arising out of their transactions with one another. One of the aims of O.E.E.C, which was set out in its Convention, was that the member countries should co-operate to develop the maximum possible inter-change of goods and services—an aim which surely all of us will support.
As the House is well aware, trade within Europe, and between Europe and the sterling area since the war, has hitherto been almost entirely in bilateral channels, due mainly to the fact that there were only bilateral Payments Agreements. Early this year, however, O.E.E.C. decided upon

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a multilateral Payments Union, and agreed that as soon as a satisfactory Union was established the percentage of trade liberalised should be increased; that is to say that the percentage of trade free from quantitative restrictions should be increased from 50 to 60 per cent. The agreement for the establishment of a European Payments Union on the basis of these principles was signed in Paris in September, and although it was to come into force only after ratification by all the signatories, it was agreed to apply it on a provisional basis, to operate it in practice, from the beginning of July. I would mention that so far only the Swiss have deposited instruments of ratification, but our country will do so after the passing of this Bill. The present Bill gives the statutory authority for the provisions required to carry out the Agreement by specifying the accounts which are to be used for the various types of transaction.
Before I come to the main features of the Union, which I will take fairly rapidly, I think the House will wish me to say a few words about multilateralism and bilateralism. May I give hypothetical examples (they can also be practical, as I think will be obvious to your Lordships) to illustrate the difference in the operation of these two systems? Under the bilateral system a noble Lord—shall we say the noble Lord, Lord Rennell?—can buy from me only to the extent that I am ready to buy from him. Supposing, for example, he is ready to buy from me the Labour Party pamphlet, Labour and the New Society, but suppose I am not ready to buy from him the Conservative pamphlet (because I know it so well already), This is the Road. Under bilateralism we are at a deadlock, and no trade takes place. If, however, we introduce the multilateral system and bring in, shall we say, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel (who is unfortunately not with us today), we may find that the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel—who I know is never too old to learn—has been ready to buy the Conservative pamphlet in question, so that Lord Rennell possesses that amount of credit with him. We are assuming, of course, that all the documents concerned are of equal monetary value, whatever their other values may or may not be. Under multilaterism then, Lord Rennell will be able to use his
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credit with Lord Samuel to buy my document. He therefore buys mine, Lord Samuel buys his, and I am able to use my credit with Lord Samuel to buy Lord Samuel's document—which is called, I believe, No Easy Way. That is multilateralism working perfectly. Trade is maximised, everybody sells his product, and all finish "all square"—and very much enlightened in the bargain.
But, of course, there is a risk in multilateralism. It is possible, for example, that I may not want to use my credit with the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, to buy the Liberal Party document. Looking at another quarter of the House, I may wish to buy a religious pamphlet published by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York—his fine speech of yesterday, for example. In that case Lord Samuel's reserves would be weakened and, assuming that the most reverend Primate is not ready to indoctrinate himself with any more Liberalism, Lord Samuel's reserves would be weakened; and if the process continued, in the extreme case they would disappear. In short, in certain circumstances which are similar to those which have prevailed in some countries since the war, multilateralism may well jeopardise the reserves of individual countries, although ideally it is the one method to maximise total trade and increase the wealth of the world.
The provisions of the Agreement afford a restoration of multilateralism in European trade. I ought to make it plain, because some noble Lords may not be aware of this fact, that in talking of Europe in this context I include not only trade in Europe but trade between Europe and the rest of the sterling area. I now take the scheme itself. The features of the scheme may be considered broadly under three heads. First, there are the essential features of the payments scheme; secondly, the particular or incidental features of the payments scheme; and thirdly, the provisions for liberalising trade, for removing quantitative restrictions.
The essential features of the payments scheme are extremely complicated and technical. May I interpret them broadly in simple language? First of all, the Agreement provides an arrangement whereby every country settles its individual debts to other countries through a

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central agency or clearinghouse. That, of course, in itself provides multilateralism. Secondly, there is the manner of payment—again I will not go into details. Under this plan, when a country gets into debt with the Union, that is, collectively with all the other countries constituting the Union, it settles the debt partly in gold and partly in credit. Similarly, when a country finds itself in credit with the Union, it is paid partly in gold and partly in credit. Thirdly, still sticking to the basic principles of the Payments Union, there is the allotment of quotas. The quota of each country is the field within which it settles, partly in gold and partly in credit, and the various quotas are allotted to the various countries on the basis of their 1949 trade, which seems a reasonable arrangement. Some noble Lord may ask: what happens when a country's quota is exhausted? The answer is that then the Union have to consider specially what should be done as and when that arises.
I should like to try one more analogy which seems to me to help to explain what I have just said, though I promise not to detain the House very long over these intricate matters. Some of your Lordships may have stayed at a house party where cards are played, and I ask your Lordships to imagine a house party where nobody is required to settle at the end of a rubber of bridge but where, at the end of a visit, everybody pays his debts or receives payment, not from his various opponents but from the kindly host. That gives the basic idea of the Payments Union. Secondly, let us imagine—which is not always the case in my limited and obsolete experience of house parties—that the house party is intended to last for an indefinite period, and that at the end of every month all the guests are expected to settle their accounts. As they cannot be expected to be paid their winnings entirely in cash, to a considerable extent their accounts are made to run on with the host, whether they win or lose. Imagine, thirdly, that all those concerned are given quotas, but that those who play on the heaviest scale—who like to play bridge for penny points, rather than for 3d. a hundred—are given a larger quota, so that if they lose a few pounds they do not have to settle at once and altogether in cash, and, equally, if they win a few pounds from others they do not have to be paid altogether in cash. I am sure
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my analogy fits the facts, and I offer it to the House as an intelligible illustration of the arrangements.
I now come to one of the main incidental features of the scheme, that which deals with the existing balances position. The clearing system of the European Payments Union applies to transactions entered into between member countries after July 1, 1950. It does not automatically deal with debts and balances built up previously and which were outstanding at that date. The main problem here was the sterling balances held by other European countries, amounting to some £200,000,000. The balance held by Portugal was £80,000,000; by Italy, £60,000,000; by France, £28,000,000; and by Sweden, £22,000,000. What has been arranged is this: As regards sterling balances when a country is in deficit with the Union, we have given an undertaking that we will allow any sterling held by a member country to be used freely to pay its bill to the Union. And if any noble Lord asks how we are able to do that so confidently, I reply that we are able to do this because E.C.A. gave us a guarantee against any loss of gold on this account. As regards sterling balances where a country is all square or in credit, and where one might feel that their need is not so great, we have been negotiating with the countries concerned for the orderly repayment of some part at least of their balances. Finally, under this head I should mention the countries who owe money to us. We have been negotiating the terms of repayment. The biggest sum here was a Danish debt of £24,500,000, which is to be funded, and there are also smaller sums owing to us from Holland (£8,000,000), Switzerland (£4,750,000) and Norway (£2,750,000).
The third heading of the features of the scheme which I mentioned was the provision for liberalising trade. In the first place, it is laid down that European countries should no longer discriminate in their import policies between other countries who are members of he Union. At the same time the percentage of each country's imports on private account which has to be set free from quantitative restrictions has been raised to 60 per cent., and is to go up still further next February to 75 per cent. I should mention that our own percentage of liberalisation is already 85 per cent.

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Before I sit down I wish to say a few words about the effects of the Union on the position of our own country. So far, the Union have carried out two operations—they have passed through two periods. The first covered the three months. July to September, and showed a United Kingdom net surplus for the period of £28,500,000. The second operation was for the month of October, in which the United Kingdom had a net surplus of £75,000,000. Of course, this very large surplus reflects a great many different factors, some of which may prove to be only temporary, and most of which will be already known to your Lordships. I would mention seasonal movements, the rising prices of sterling area commodities, the marked change in the international attitude towards sterling and a great deal of buying of sterling (of which noble Lords who are experts in these matters will no doubt be aware) by foreign traders to cover commitments maturing later on. Our surplus with the Union is calculated on the basis of changes in Central Bank balances, and it therefore reflects all the various factors which influence the demand for sterling abroad by foreign commercial banks and traders. It would accordingly be wrong to assume that we shall go on having surpluses at the same rate as for October.
I should further mention that our cumulative net surplus for the four months from July to October has been £103,000,000, and this has been brought to account in the following way. The first £53,000,000 out of the £103,000,000 surplus—that is the £75,000,000 plus £28,000,000-was used to discharge what is called our "initial debit balance "with the Union. This initial debit balance is very similar to the old "drawing rights," and it means that we had to write off that amount of our surplus with the Union against the receipt of a corresponding amount of so-called "conditional aid" from America. That may sound hard, until your Lordships realise that we obtain in conditional aid what we offer to other countries in this way. The arrangement in question was worked out with certain countries, such as the United Kingdom, which were expected to be in surplus with the Union, and the object was to allow certain countries in the opposite position, such as Greece and Austria, which would be in deficit with the Union, to write off part or all of their
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deficits. The balance of £50,000,000 of our surplus stands as an undisputable credit in our favour in the books of the Union. I said at the beginning of my speech that these matters are very intricate. I hope that I have met the feeling of the House in trying to deal with the principles of the Union rather than the details of the Bill. If I can provide other information which the House desires, I shall endeavour to do so to the best of my ability. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Pakenham.)
4.34 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, I am sure I shall be expressing the views of all your Lordships in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, on the extremely lucid explanation he has given of the working of the European Payments Union. It is admittedly a very difficult subject and I hope that the analogies the noble Lord has used (to which I may refer again) will be taken up widely and publicised outside your Lordships' House, so as to give the general public a much clearer idea than a great many people have now about what the Union is and how it works. The first thing I should like to say about the Union, and especially in comment on what the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, said, is that I venture to think that this is perhaps the most important and constructive piece of international financial and economic machinery we have seen since the end of the war. To my mind, it is far and away the most important of all the arrangements that have been made—and, of course, it could not have arisen without the immense good will of all the Governments that have co-operated in the arrangement, and particularly without the help which the United States Government have given through the various Marshall Aid schemes and arrangements, of which the European Payments Union Agreement is the final outcome up to date. Indeed, in my view, and I believe in the view of everybody else, the European Payments Union could not have been made workable without the solid contribution of the United States Government, particularly in one direction to which I shall refer later.
I should like at this point to express my satisfaction at the domiciling of the

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clearing arrangements in the Bank of International Settlements, with which I was associated when it first started—indeed, I was one of the four people who opened the books of the Bank. After many years of its existence, during which it has been violently criticised and generally abused as being a useless encumbrance, it is now contributing in a way that no other institution could have contributed to the working of these multi-lateral arrangements. It is now fulfilling the purposes for which it was conceived, and has at long last come into its own. I hope that this is only one of many projects with which the Bank will be associated.
There are one or two points that arise out of the European Payments Union and out of this Bill to which I should like to refer and of which I have given the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, notice. They are rather complicated points, but they are points on which I believe a certain amount of information is sought by those who try to follow these inter-national proceedings. The noble Lord referred in the first place to the initial balances which were allotted to various countries; and I am particularly glad that in mentioning the debit balance with which this country started he made it clear that it was a debit balance, because it was really in respect of the conditional aid which we were to receive or had received from the United States, and therefore was not just a burden placed on this country rather arbitrarily, as many people have thought.
As a homely analogy, one might take the example of a racecourse. You have in these debit and credit balances, as it were, a handicap placed on all the horses that have been started in the European Payments Union Stakes. It would appear at first sight that the United Kingdom horse had had a great deal of weight attributed to it, and much more than our domestic, financial and economic conditions last year warranted. In that house party, of which the noble Lord spoke, we started with a debit balance on the genial host's book before we commenced playing bridge at all. We started, as a matter of fact, with what is known in this arrangement as a debit balance of 150.000.000 units—a unit is a unit of account. I believe equivalent to the United States dollar. But that, presumably, was fixed by the genial host on his
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book as our starting handicap, not because we played bridge so well or so much better than anybody else, or, indeed, because we played for higher stakes than other people, but because on two previous occasions we had won from somebody he knew well a sum equivalent to the handicap which he attributed to us in his book.
But the facts of the matter are that, though we started With a debit balance (I propose to stick to units for the moment, because that is the form in which the debits are recorded and we can translate them into money later on) of 150,000.000 units—or dollars, if you like to think of it that way—by the end of September that debit balance had been reduced to 80,000,000 units. Our good play had enabled us to earn 70,000,000 units in the first accounting period. By the end of the second accounting period, that is to say, the end of October, we had turned our debit balance on our host's bridge ledger from minus 150,000,000 to plus 141,000,000 units—that is, in fact, the credit of some £50,000,000 to which the noble Lord referred. That, in itself, is obviously from our point of view a very satisfactory development from the first month's operation of this multilateral period, but it does bring up one or two rather complicated points.
The noble Lord spoke about how these balances were settled—namely, partly in gold, and partly in credits. Under the rules of the Fund, people with credits and people with debits do not either receive or pay until their level, fixed in respect of each individual country, exceeds a certain amount. After that, as the noble Lord said, they receive payment either in gold or in credit, according to certain proportions. Though we have worked off a debit balance and achieved this substantial credit, we have not yet passed the level at which we receive cash, but nevertheless we have a credit share—that is, we have a claim on the Fund of some £50,000,000. Taking, as an analogy, the Fund as a sort of bank, we have a claim on that bank some day to pay us £50,000,000; and when our balance exceeds a certain level we shall be asked by the bank (or be able to call upon the bank to allow us) to take some of it away in gold, dolars or any other currency. In the meanwhile, however,

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we have a claim, and so long as the Fund is solvent that is a good claim. The solvency of the Fund—though the Fund is terminable in two years—is in effect a guarantee under the Marshall Aid arrangements. Therefore, our claim is a good claim and represents a definite asset.
My first inquiry is whether that credit balance which we have there is taken into the general reserve position in foreign exchange in this country, in respect of which returns are published and made quarterly by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am quite clear that when our credit balance exceeds a certain amount, and a proportion of that excess is paid over in gold, that gold will automatically come into the reserve and figure as a tangible asset in the reserve. I am not, however, clear that the credit of the present amount, which has not yet exceeded the margin at which we draw cash, figures in our reserve position. If it does not, I should if possible like to have from the noble Lord an explanation of why it does not, because it seems to me that it is as valid a claim on a solvent body like E.P.U. as a claim on, say, the Federal Reserve system in New York for a credit in dollars which may be lying there—a credit with the Bank of England. If it does appear in the returns, then, of course, it is in the reserve position, the figures of which have already been published. If it does not appear, then the reserve position at any given period when the returns are issued ought, in fact, to be increased, at any rate mentally, by the amount of our credit.
Going back to that reserve position and the developments of the last few months, we know that our reserve position has improved very considerably, and the trend of events in the E.P.U. system entirely bear that out. Moreover, they bear out more of the improvement than is shown by the figures, because though we have a credit of only some £50,000,000 in the Fund at the moment, as the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, said, we have in fact gained an amount from minus 150,000.000 to plus 141,000,000. In other words, the trend of improvement is far greater than appears from the credit which stands in our name there.
LORD PAKENHAM: I have no desire to interrupt the noble Lord, who is in-
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teresting us all greatly, but may I suggest deferentially that he says "units" whenever he mentions those figures, because those taking down his words might think he means pounds?
LORD RENNELL: I quite agree. I am talking in units. In other words, we have an increase from minus 150,000,000 units to plus 141,000,000 units in the period. Lest anybody should think that that ought to be interpreted by a greater liberality in our foreign exchange policy, I would hasten to say that I entirely accept that some of these movements and some of this improvement in recent months may be ephemereal; as the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has said, it may not last.
Now there have been certain developments which tend to show that strengthening confidence in sterling produced rather a larger flood of payments to this country than would normally be the case. Perhaps it has restored only the position that people wish to hold balances here, which is right and appropriate to a community of this sort and to a country with this economic strength. But it is also true that no deduction can be drawn from that increase in these months to justify our regarding it as a continuing increase on that scale. I do not suppose that we shall really know what is taking place until well after the end of this year, when we shall see the total reserve position, either with or without this credit in E.P.U. But I should like to have that point cleared up when the noble Lord replies to this debate: whether this credit is shown or not.
My second point deals with the Bill, and is rather a technical one. The first clause authorises the Exchange Equalisation Account to carry out transactions under the E.P.U. arrangements—in other words, it authorises the Exchange Equalisation Fund to receive from the Union or to pay to the Union, according to whether we are in credit or in debit. Going back to what I said before, if there is a credit, as there is now, which has not yet achieved the size to justify a payment in gold, there is nevertheless a credit which presumably will be passed to the credit of the Exchange Equalisation Fund, and as such a claim it should figure in the reserve. Your Lordships will note that the Bill specifically authorises the Exchange Equalisation Fund to operate in this connection. It does so authorise

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the Exchange Equalisation Fund to operate presumably because the Exchange Equalisalion Fund was not authorised to operate previously, and required legislation to do so.
That brings me to my last point, a very complicated one I am afraid. In the second clause of the Bill authority is taken to make advances out of the Civil Contingencies: Fund to the Intra-European Payments Account, which is the account into which conditional aid is received under the Marshall Aid arrangements. The object of this provision is to enable payments to be made to the E.P.U. before the receipt of conditional aid, though to the amount of that aid. There may be delays in one form or another under the conditional aid arrangements which will mean that we do not receive the money until a certain time, but we have to pay E.P.U. ahead of that time. For that purpose, the Bill provides that the Civil Contingencies Fund may make payments to the Intra-European Payments Account in order to enable payments to E.P.U. to be made. When this Bill was discussed in another place the point was made that it did not appear to be appropriate to use the Civil Contingencies Fund for this purpose. The very name suggests that the Fund was set up and created in order to provide for certain civil contingencies. I think it can hardly be said, at least without a considerable stretch of imagination, that payments of the nature I have described could properly be described as civil contingencies in this country.
I am therefore driven to inquire why it was considered necessary to authorise these advances to be made from the Civil Contingencies Fund when it seems to me that it would have been much easier and more appropriate to authorise the Exchange Equalisation Fund, which already does this type of business, to make the advances pending the receipt of the conditional aid under the Marshall Aid arrangements. This would have obviated using a Fund which was never designed for this purpose and the need for a special provision in this Bill to do it. As it is, a special provision has had to be made to enable the Exchange Equalisation Fund to do certain things, and I submit that it would have been easier to authorise the Exchange Equalisation Fund to do this other thing—namely, to make advances pending the receipt of conditional aid.
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The conclusion that I have reached from reading the debates in another place, and from examining the position, is that the opposition in another place to the use of the Civil Contingencies Fund appears to have been justified, and I should like to know what arguments can be advanced to show why that was necessary, instead of using the simpler course. Those are the only technical points—and I am afraid they are rather technical points—which I wish to raise on this Bill. It is not with any view to criticising the Bill or the arrangement, which of course has the wholehearted support of all my friends on this side of the House, and which has, indeed, I think, received more acclamation and support from informed opinion in this country than any other arrangement of the same sort that has been made since the end of the war. We must hope that all members of the house party, when they play bridge in the course of the next few years, play their cards with sufficient prudence and modesty not to run into serious overdrafts with their genial host, because that is the only thing which might break down the machine and might make the genial host a little less enthusiastic about continuing a multilateral clearing of this nature when the period of two years comes to an end.
4.55 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I should like to express my own thanks, and also, I know, these of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the noble Lord, to his noble friends, and to the House generally for the cordial reception that this Bill has received. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Rennell has put down a Motion about the whole form of Government accounts, and I do not know whether that will enable him to develop some of these themes still further.
LORD RENNELL: It depends on the noble Lord's answer to-day.
LORD PAKENHAM: AS the noble Lord has put down that Motion I feel sure nothing I say to-day will deter him from exploring some of those rather abstruse avenues. I will therefore ask him to forgive me if I speak briefly to-day on these points. The first question he put to me was about the credits with E.P.U., and the question of whether those credits would figure in our reserves. He

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is, of course, right in saying that the gold figures would, but in the view of our experts the credits that the noble Lord had in mind are akin to other types of short or long-term investments overseas, and the analysis of these transactions, together with the operations on the other side of the account, resulting in changes in our external liabilities, will be set out in summary form in the next Economic Survey and in the half-yearly Balance of Payments White Paper. We shall continue to publish figures of the United Kingdom position at each monthly E.P.U. Statement.
The noble Lord may be under a misapprehension in regard to these credit claims on E.P.U. being equivalent to gold. That is not so. I hope the E.P.U. will not be wound up, but if it were wound up our credit claims would be paid off, partly perhaps in dollars but mostly in claims on the individual members, who are to a great extent non-dollar countries, so that one cannot treat credit claims on non-dollar countries as if they were in fact equivalent to gold or dollars. I am glad to think that the noble Lord criticises us for underestimating our own achievements. If he is finding any fault with our accounting it is that we are not really puffing out our chests sufficiently. It is the right sort of criticism, and the type that will always be welcome.
Lord Rennell raised a still more technical point when he asked why the Exchange Equalisation Account could not be used for certain purposes, instead of the Civil Contingencies Fund. Here I doubt whether I shall convince him across the Table, but I must put on record the considered reply of the Government. I should make it plain that the idea the noble Lord had in mind, that of using the Exchange Equalisation Account, was considered—and I believe considered thoroughly—but the other procedure was found to be necessary, and indeed was regarded as the only proper procedure. The functions of the Exchange Equalisation Account are defined in the Finance Acts of 1932 and 1946 as being the investment of its funds in securities or in the purchase of gold for purposes laid down in those Acts. Therefore, under those Acts we cannot simply use the Exchange Equalisation Account to make advances to what is
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another sterling account. It is not regarded as a Contingency Fund, and it was therefore necessary to bring in the Civil Contingencies Fund, which of course is. This follows the exact precedent of the American Aid and European Payments Act, 1949. I do not expect to convert the noble Lord with those few words, but I am always ready to meet him with my advisers, if he wishes. I can assure him that this matter was looked into, and the procedure adopted was found to be not only convenient but, in the circumstances, the proper one. I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

THE HOTEL AND TOURIST INDUSTRIES
5.0 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE rose to call attention to the effect of the present working of the Catering Wages Act on the hotel and tourist industries of Great Britain: and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: The subject of this Motion which I move to-day is a non-Party one, because I think we are all united in the desire to see our tourist and hotel industry run efficiently, both for those who work in it and for those who consume its benefits. I have tried to list for the commencement of my remarks the points on which we enjoy common ground, and they are really self-evident. I think the first point of agreement is the importance of the industry, both at home and as regards our overseas trade. Some £70,000,000 of foreign exchange is earned annually from overseas visitors, and there is wealth untold and immeasurable in the way of relaxation and regained health for our own people who enjoy holidays. Secondly, I think we are all on common ground in wanting a sound industry, with fair conditions for all engaged therein, employees, management and owners.
Thirdly, I think, we must all admit that it was a very unregulated industry in pre-war years, with conditions varying from good to those upon which we look with regret to-day. Fourthly, I believe—and I hope the Minister who replies will agree with me here—that the 1943 Act

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was a sincere attempt to improve conditions, an attempt supported by all Parties and brought in by the Coalition Government. Having said that I think we must admit that for various reasons the 1943 Act is not working out satisfactorily, either within the industry or for the consumers of the industry—that is to say, the people who are on holiday. Finally, I think it is common ground that if this industry is to meet its duties as regards the community it must be given a fair chance of running smoothly, and the present position must be somewhat modified. Those are my starting points on which I hope and think I have the House with me.
It is necessary briefly to recount to your Lordships; the background of this industry since 1943. The 1943 Act set up a Catering Commission, of which Sir Hartley Shaweross, the present Attorney-General, was the first Chairman. That Catering Commission recommended that the industry should have five wages boards: one, to lay down conditions and wages for staff in industrial canteens; a second for public-houses; a third for cafés; a fourth for licensed hotels; and the fifth for unlicensed hotels. In respect of canteens, cafes and public-houses, there are regular hours, there are fixed closing-times, and they can be run much more on industrial lines than can licensed or unlicensed hotels. Therefore, I am not concerned with those three boards, but only with the wages boards for licensed hotels and unlicensed hotels.
The wages board of the licensed hotels consists of sixteen people nominated by various interests on the employers' side—hotels, brewers, the retail trade and the Railway Executive. There are sixteen representatives of the trade unions, and there are three independent members. Here I think we come to the first trouble in the working of the 1943 Act. The trade union representatives started off with years of experience of trade union negotiation, and they started off with full knowledge of industrial arbitration; but they also started off with no knowledge at all of the hotel industry. On the other hand, the hotel industry representatives started off with no knowledge of trade union organisation, and no knowledge of industrial arbitration; and, I regret to say, they were not in agreement amongst
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themselves on many aspects of the hotel industry.
The proposals as regards the wages board for licensed hotels were first issued at the end of 1947, and at once they were widely criticised throughout the industry. I must here admit—the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, can make the point, if he so wishes, in his speech—that the regulations which came into operation in March, 1948, were assented to by the hotel representatives. I give the noble Viscount that point. But the reason was that very inexperience about 'which I have spoken—inexperience in trade union organisation, lack of being able to foresee how those regulations would work out in practice, and, probably, the hope that things would not be as bad as the critics anticipated. In fact, directly what is called Licensed Regulation No. 3 commenced to operate, the general misgivings of the industry were translated into a real experience of the impossibility of running a domestic industry on what I may call factory lines. This licensed industry has about 150,000 staff. There are about 9,000 employers, and the average number of employees in each establishment is seventeen. So your Lordships will see the smallness of the units, and the individual attention which the employer gives to his own small place. To prove my statement, may I say that in less than twelve months the wages board themselves admitted the impracticability and the unsuitability of their work as contained in Licensed Regulation No. 3? It was amended by a document called Licensed Regulation No. 7, which certainly improved the situation but, I submit to your Lordships, failed to remedy the fundamental errors of the original order.
May I cite to your Lordships what those faults are? It is not the higher wage scales for the worst and lower-paid grades. That is not the fault. It is an impossible task for all but the biggest of the hotels to administer these regulations which the Minister approved under the Act. The staff are divided into a hundred grades, and there are nine pay variations in each grade. There are twenty-six typed pages of the regulation. How can the manager who is running a small establishment with two or three employees, and working himself in it, cope with this sort of thing? A factory

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organisation with an executive management department can do so, but not the small man. It has proved to be absolutely impossible for the small people to comply with the regulations. Let me here say at once that on all hands I have heard of nothing but sympathetic treatment towards the small hotel keepers who are failing to comply with the regulations, by the inspectors and by the Minister's officials. There is absolutely no complaint that they have not done their best to avoid trouble, but this difficulty is inevitable when it is sought to run this domestic industry on factory lines.
The second fault lies with the overtime and spread-over provisions—I am well aware of the technicalities involved here, for I have burned the midnight oil studying the subject. The effect of these provisions is that, unless an hotel is one of substantial size, it must either cut its service to the visitors or run uneconomically, in the hope that better times may come, or it must try to impose on visitors a crippling high tariff charge which they would not accept and which the hotel would be regretful of putting forward. Let me give just one example of how this spread-over and overtime works. Let us assume a potential guest in a country hotel which has no night porter, and that that guest wants to come in at 11.15 at night—not very late. The day porter lives on the premises. He gets up and opens the door to that one guest. That day porter has to be paid an hour's wage, plus overtime rate, plus what is called a spread-over increase on all the hours he has worked in the previous forty-eight hours. The result is that the total cost to the hotel-keeper of opening the door to that one guest would be 16s. That seems to me a rather expensive tariff for opening a door to one guest.
I could multiply those instances to your Lordships many times over. I do not think there is any dispute in any quarter of this House amongst noble Lords who have studied the subject that these anomalies which I have cited do exist in many directions. The result is that the service has to be cut for the travellers, owing to the heavy wage charges which have to be put into operation when more than forty-eight hours are worked by the staff in the week, even though much of that forty-eight hours has not been spent in actual work but in standing by. The
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result is no luncheon waiters, no early morning tea, no late meals for travellers arriving by air or by motor-car.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): There is, of course, at the present time, under the present regulations, a spread-over of twelve hours for which no overtime is paid.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: That is quite right. I do not want to elaborate the point. There is a spread-over, but it is after the forty-eight hours worked that the heavy charges come in.
The third fault is that since Licensed Regulation No. 7 was made unemployment over the whole industry has been increasing, largely, I think, because the seasonal hotels cannot retain their staffs. I have here the official figures given to the Catering Commission. In January, 1947, the figure of unemployment in this industry stood at 17,404; in January, 1948, it was 21,471; and in January, 1949, it was 32,502. That shows that the effect of these new provisions and L.R.7 is that unemployment has risen. I can assure the noble Lord that I need not take just one month; I could give all the months, and the proportionate increase is exactly the same. The fourth fault is that many of the staff do not like these regulations. They work to set hours, which means that they go off duty just at what I should call the "gratuity time." Cases have been cited, I think in the last debate in this House or perhaps it was in another place, where men have had to go off duty in accordance with the provisions of the regulations, have gone across the road to another hotel and taken exactly the same sort of work for several hours, and then returned to their original place of work. These regulations have upset the balance between what I call the kitchen and the front staff, due to the Commission's direction to the Wages Board that tipping should be ignored.
I must for a moment or two develop this question of tipping, because it is very important in the industry. I am no defender of tipping, but it is part of our system of social life in this country. It is a reward for personal services rendered, and, whether we like it or not, it is with us. I am sure no noble Lord on any side of the House has any wish to see a man dependent for his living on the

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servile collection of money. We do not want that. Nevertheless, pre-war wages did take; some account of tipping, as I believe they will have to do in the future. There is the extreme case, of course, of a man who before the war paid a large hotel for his pitch and then earned a four-figure income. I think it would be illogical to deny the effect of tipping on that man's livelihood. I notice also that the Inland Revenue are not very keen on ignoring the question of tipping. I understand that taxi-drivers and porters are assessed on what the Inland Revenue consider are their average earnings. I hope the Minister is not going to get up and say that he or the Government reject any idea of acknowledging tipping as part of the system, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer depends to some extent upon the successful collection of tax from tips. It would be a little illogical if that point of view were taken. I know that the trade unions object very strongly to the practice of tipping; but on this matter I wonder whether the trade unions really represent the men in the industry. I am told that there are 15,000 trade unionists out of 150,000 people employed in this industry, and they are mostly men in large hotels in the cities. Therefore I do not think that the trade union objection should be taken at too great a strength.
I have given, I hope not at too great length, the main faults which have arisen from the regulations and L.R.7 in regard to licensed establishments. In summarising the position I must touch for a moment upon the unlicensed establishments, which number about 90,000 in this country. Here, again, is a rather sorry tale. The Wages Order proposals for unlicensed establishments were provisionally put forward in February, 1949. They were broadly similar to those for the licensed houses. They made an industrial concern out of any four-bedroomed boarding house. It was quite impossible to work them. It was obvious to everyone that the confusion which already existed in regard to licensed establishments was going to lead to both confusion and muddle in unlicensed establishments. Therefore the regulations were withdrawn and amended regulations were issued in August, 1949. The regulations of August, 1949, were still hopelessly unrealistic, and up to this moment there is no unlicensed establishment regulation in force. The trade union representatives
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bitterly oppose a different state of affairs for the unlicensed as compared with the licensed establishments. They believe in blessed uniformity. But, whatever the fate of the unlicensed establishments in the future, I hope that regulations will not be introduced before the Festival of Britain to complicate even more than it is at present the position of houses and hotels in this country.
The Government realised that the regulations were not working, for the reasons which I have given and no doubt for other reasons of which they have knowledge. The regulations were not working as the planners had expected and as the experts had hoped. So Sir John Forster was appointed Chairman of the Catering Commission, and the Minister decided in August last year that the Commission should undertake as an urgent task the investigation of the Regulations, and should report. I must question whether that was really the best body to conduct this investigation. The Commission start off certainly with great knowledge. There are members who have been on the Commission before. But are not the Commission to some extent reviewing their own work and having to criticise some of their own achievements in the past? Is it not too balanced a body to look at the matter really dispassionately? A balanced body produced rather a timid result. In any case, whether it was or was not the best body, this Wages Commission have recommended certain changes. I regret to say that in my view those changes do not go far enough. The Wages Commission have suggested one Board for Britain for all licensed and unlicensed establishments—that is, one Board for England, Scotland and Wales, with wages sub-committees to cover various aspects. Secondly, they recommend some relief for overtime. Thirdly, they recommend different wages and conditions for different types of establishment. They reconmend that the establishments should be classified into large London hotels, large provincial hotels, and small establishments. Finally, they do not recommend a separate board for Scotland. I think that is not an unfair summary of the Sir John Forster recommendations.
I would suggest something a little different. First, I think there should be a new approach by new personnel on the wages boards. When Sir John Forster's recommendations are accepted, if they are, and wages committees are set up, let them

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consist of completely new people. Let them be people without the history of these unfortunate regulations behind them. Secondly, I would suggest a differential grading. Sir John Forster's suggestion is, I think, right; but I believe that the Catering Commission have to be bold in themselves laying down what their differential standard is to be. I regret to say that the hotel industry is not at all united. There are conflicting interests and varying points of view. Of course there is bound to be grousing, and there is bound to be complaint wherever the dividing line falls between a large and a small establishment. But I think that the Catering Commission have the duty to be bold in laying down the differential standards for large London, large provincial, and small establishments. I believe they must do it with a formula bringing into account beds and bar turn-over. One must take into account bar takings in the case of a licensed establishment. It is not for me here to work out that formula, but I am sure that those two factors must be taken into account.
Next I should like to see the Catering Commission free all small establishments from the mass of complications with which they are now hampered—twenty-six typed pages of regulations, 100 different staff grades and nine pay variations within each grade—and draw up a simple and flexible code for such establishments. Then I should like to see the Commission accept the view that tipping should be taken into account. Sir John Forster has recommended that the question of tipping should be re-examined by another national committee. Perhaps that national committee will recommend that another national committee should investigate its findings. I believe it is the Catering Commission's responsibility. Again, they should be bold and take the view that tipping must be taken into account. By all means let them remit to a committee the details as to how it should be taken into account, but do not give the committee responsibility for taking the major decision as to whether tipping should or should not be taken into account. That is the responsibility of the Commission. They must take the decision on that matter.
Now as to the question of a Scottish Board. I am afraid that I disagree pro-foundly with Sir John Forster and his
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Commission that no Scottish Wages Board is required. The noble Lord, Lord Morrison, replying to the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, in the debate a few weeks ago said that Scotland does not want a Wages Board. Certain hotels in Scotland and certain organisations in Britain which have interests both in England and Scotland have come out against the proposal for a Scottish Board, whether with the complete authority of their members or not I do not know. But it is not only the hotel industry of which we have to think. We must have regard to the consumers and the Scottish tourists' organisations. Those organisations have come out strongly in favour of the proposal. I suggest that Scottish opinion must be respected and cannot be ignored. These people want a Scottish Wages Board. There is another point of view from which I think it would be desirable to have a Scottish Wages Board. There are more seasonal hotels in Scotland than in England and Wales. The Scottish hotel industry is essentially a tourist one for the summer season—among the great attractions of the country being, of course, fishing and sightseeing.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): The noble Lord is referring now to areas outside the large towns?
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Yes. If there were a Scottish Wages Board they would set up a standard for seasonal hotels in Scotland. And there is much greater experience of seasonal problems in Scotland than in other parts of Great Britain. The recommendations of such a Wages Board could be used as a yard-stick for seasonal hotels in other parts of Britain, in England and Wales. I know that noble Lords who come from Wales will perhaps say: "Why should Wales follow Scotland?" The point is that, in my view, Scotland has a greater wealth of experience in the matter of seasonal hotels and a greater problem to solve. If the problem can be solved for Scotland, it can very largely be solved on the same lines for England and Wales as well. Finally, I would suggest that each of these wages boards should have a travelling sub-committee, the members of which would be constantly going round the type of hotels with which the wages board is concerned. It would be their

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duty to stay at these hotels, to talk to the managers, to talk to the personnel, to talk to the visitors and to get into touch with all phases of hotel life generally. They would thus acquire a wealth of practical experience, and with that behind them they would not be likely to bring out such regulations as we have had brought out in the past.
Now as to the Minister's position. In the debate to which I have just referred, Lord Morrison said that it would be necessary to have an amending Act for Scotland, setting up a Wages Board. As I understand it, the procedure under the Act is for the boards to lay draft regulations with the Minister. Then the Minister has the responsibility either of accepting them and putting them into operation or of rejecting them. I would urge the Government to ask the Minister not to approve any regulations unless tipping is allowed for in them. And if the Commission will not accept a regulation that tipping should be taken into account, the Minister should review his position to see whether amending legislation should not be introduced. The same applies to Scotland: if the Commission will not accede to the view that a Scottish Wages Board is necessary, I ask that the Minister should introduce amending legislation in order to bring into existence that Scottish Wages Board I trust that I have not taken up too much of your Lordships' time, but I thought it necessary to cover the ground fairly adequately. Our one wish is to improve the wellbeing of this industry, both within and without. It is with that feeling in my heart that I beg to move for Papers.
5.26 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye with regard to the effect of the Catering Wages Act, first on the hotel business and through the hotel industry upon the tourist business, which is of such importance, as we all realise. Lord Balfour's concluding words were that he had covered the ground. If I may say so, I certainly think that he has. In the few remarks that I propose to make I am afraid that I may be obliged to traverse some of the ground which he has already covered, in order to make a few points on the subject. Though the Act was passed seven years ago, in
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1943, it is only in the last three years that we have been able to judge of its effect, because, as my noble friend has said, the order for licensed hotels was put into operation only three years ago. But the three years have given the industry, and the public, plenty of opportunity to judge of the effects of the Act.
It is perhaps of interest to recall its origin. It was due to the inspiration of Mr. Bevin, when he was Minister of Labour in the war-time Government, that the Act had birth. It was promoted and passed through Parliament under Mr. Churchill's war-time Government. Perhaps it is also of interest to recall its objects. The Act's sponsors stated that the objects were, first, to attain satisfactory wages and conditions of service for catering staff, and, secondly—and this was of great interest, because it was the first time that it had been stated authoritatively in this country—to develop the industry to meet the requirements of the public and. in particular, the requirements of tourists from overseas. These were laudable and, indeed, important objects. The second involved, for the first time in the history of this country, official recognition that the hotel and tourist industry had an important part to play in the national economy, and should be encouraged accordingly.
Those who have been associated—as I have now for exactly thirty years—with the organisation which represents hotels nationally, the Hotels and Restaurants Association, have, in season and out of season, stressed the national importance of the industry. We have pressed for its official recognition, recognition which has for many years been given by the Governments of a great many other countries to their own industry. But we were voices crying in the wilderness. Indeed, it took the circumstances of the last war, followed by the shortage of dollars after it, to bring public opinion, as well as Government authorities, to a realisation of the importance of the industry to the nation. When the Catering Wages Act was introduced, those of us concerned with the interests of hotels had some doubts whether the method proposed by the Act was so easily going to attain the twofold aims of its sponsors. We can now judge the effect from experience.

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As your Lordships will remember, the Act deals almost entirely with the functions of wages boards to be set up after investigation had been carried out by the Catering Wages Commission as to the existence and adequacy of any wage-fixing machinery that was in operation. As a result of those investigations by the Commission, wages boards were finally set up. Two of them are concerned with hotels, one with licensed and the other with unlicensed establishments. These boards were manned by representatives of the employers and employed, and by independent members. As my noble friend has said, the employers' side was constituted entirely of people engaged full-time in the industry, while the workers' side naturally consisted mainly of trade union officials who, though no doubt perfectly competent in other ways, happened to have little or no experience of the hotel industry. The workers' side proceeded, in the manner which my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye has described, to ask for regulations of a nature which might be applicable to factories but which in our judgment were entirely unsuitable for what has since been officially described by the Catering Wages Commission as "a domestic industry without parallel." Although the employers' side did all they could to press their point, the industry was loaded with factory regulations, and it is no exaggeration for me to say, speaking with some knowledge, that the regulations had a profoundly disturbing effect on the whole of the industry.
The entire existing wage system was put completely out of gear by the disregard of tipping. We may or may not approve of tipping, but tipping is there; and I suggest that so long as human nature is what it is tipping will continue, whether we like it or not. It was the custom of the industry to allow for the incidence of tipping in fixing wage rates, to preserve a fair balance between the various grades of staff. The nature of the hotel business brings some categories of staff constantly to the notice of visitors, whilst others it does not. This was always allowed for in the industry. But the wages board ignored it, and decided on substantial increases to tip-earning staff. The new procedure also introduced the forty-eight hour week and payments for overtime, for hours of duty spread over more than
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twelve hours and for work on bank holidays. My noble friend has said that hotel staff were listed in no fewer than 100 grades, and I endorse what he said. It is staggering for a small establishment to deal with these documents, with their definitions of duties and rates of pay, the whole involving complicated calculations with fractions down to one sixty-fourth of a penny to arrive at the wages due. The order applied to all licensed establishments of whatever size completely regardless of the nature of the hotel business. No difference was made between an hotel with four bedrooms and one of 1,000 bed-rooms.
The hotels reacted in different ways, and I suggest this is an important point for consideration. Some were able to maintain their standards of service, and raised their terms to the public to cover the extra cost: the public had to pay more. Others found it impracticable to increase their terms, and curtailed their services to the public by reducing the staff on duty and by shortening periods when meals were available. Seasonal hotels opened later and closed earlier in the year. The result, of course, was that the public suffered. A third group tried to maintain their services by having the duties of the staff taken over by proprietors or managers and their families—a very common arrangement—and by working long hours. Therefore, whatever the reactions of the hotels of different categories, whether the wage increases were justified or not—and I am not going into that point—the general effect of the Order was against the interests of the public and obviously added to the difficulties of the employers. Certain staff undoubtedly received financial benefit, but on the other hand I would point out that to some extent their jobs became less secure. Protest by the industry led to amendments to the Order in 1949, but these, while they removed some of the more glaring anomalies, altered little the fundamental problems caused by increased cost, complicated record-keeping and the making of calculations. In the meantime, the proposed regulations for unlicensed hotels were published. Here again, the employers' side upon the board, warned by experience, pressed for simpler regulations for what were often quite small businesses. They met with little success, and the new proposals are just as complicated and unsuitable for their pur-

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pose. I believe that over 1,000 representations have been lodged with the wages board which are in process of consideration. So that the unlicensed hotels, numbering about 80,000, are not yet saddled with regulations.
So serious were the repercussions of the licensed regulations on the capacity of the hotel industry to serve the public that on several occasions the matter was brought forward by Members in another place, until eventually the Minister of Labour agreed to set up an Inquiry. This was held by the Catering Wages Commission last spring. Immediately the organisation I represent, the British Hotels and Restaurants Association, put forward the following points: they stressed that it is a domestic industry which is concerned, and one which is valuable to the fortunes of this country; that most of the hotels in the country are small establishments which, unlike factories, operate from sixteen to twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, during which time services may be required; that many of these establishments are inns legally obliged to be ready to receive travellers at all hours of the day; and, finally, that such an industry ought not to be crippled by regulations which make a number of the hotels uneconomic to run.
My noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye has asked for a new approach. I would support him very strongly in that. We suggest simplification of regulations, revision of overtime and other payments, so that they do not directly lead to reductions in service to the public—and this, I am informed can well be done—and the recognition of tipping in the making of wage regulations. The Report of the Catering Wages Commission supports most of the views put forward by the Hotels Association, but stops short of saying that wage regulations applicable to the hotel industry should be specially designed for it, which surely should be the case. It also omits to recommend that tipping be taken into account. The claim put forward by the Hotels Association is a simple one. It is merely that the reasonable requirements of the public should have the first consideration. That brings us right back to one of the two main objects which the sponsors publicly declared when the Catering Wages Act was introduced seven years ago. We are told that the hotels will have to be ready in a short time to receive a great influx
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of visitors. The year 1950 is drawing to a close, and the Festival of 1951 is close at hand. One of its main objects, if not the main one, is to attract tourists from overseas. Therefore, at this late hour I do beg the Government to help and not hamper the hotel industry in its efforts in the public interest to provide the fullest possible accommodation for tourists. I hope that the noble Viscount who is to reply will be able to give us some assurance on these points.
5.41 p.m.
EARL MANVERS: My Lords, I should like cordially to support much of what has been so eloquently said by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, and by the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough. The Catering Wages Act, 1943, passed in the stress of war time (Heaven knows why!) by the then National Government, has been put into force about five years later by their less cautious successors. It has had an effect little short of disastrous on the smaller hotels and inns of the country such as are run by my concern, the People's Refreshment House Association. This result cannot but have the gravest repercussions next year on the success of the Festival of Britain to which some of us are looking forward. Instead of allowing innkeepers to make their own arrangements, suitable to their own circumstances, with their own servants or with trade unions representing their servants, a series of regulations have been made which, though they may work well enough in one establishment, are wholly unsuitable for another. Factory-type regulations have been imposed on a purely domestic business. The Wages Boards have been packed with outside trade union members having no knowledge of the hotel trade. Sufficient attention has not been given to the point that public holidays are just the time when the public need services from hotel workers. Variations in weather produce further complications, with different demands from customers. I am told that in Australia and New Zealand bars close at six o'clock and that dinner is off by 7.30. It looks as if we may shortly follow suit. The tipping system, though not ideal, can be relied on to do rough justice. It must be left to the innkeepers to settle matters between man and man. In my view, the Government would be well advised to let the Catering Wages Act fall into innocuous desuetude.
5.44 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have ventured to address your Lordships, and perhaps therefore I may crave your indulgence if I preface my remarks with a personal note. Unlike many noble Lords, I do not enjoy the advantage of having served an apprenticeship in another place. Therefore, what I have to say will probably exhibit all the rawness of a newly-entered apprentice. Such experience as I have had has been limited to the debating chamber of a municipal authority where, as many of your Lordships will perhaps know, there is no official reporter, and where, therefore, the feeling that one has to be logical in argument is not so strongly felt as it may be in your Lordships' House, where every word that one utters is taken down, and, I am informed, occasionally used in evidence against one. Nor can I claim any specialised knowledge of the subject that we are debating this evening. The interest I have is based on my being a Governor of the Scottish Hotel School, a school fostered and initially financed by the Scottish Educational Department and run under the auspices of the Glasgow and West of Scotland Commercial College—a central institution, as it is technically called.
It may interest your Lordships to know that the composition of that Board of Governors is, as to one half, representatives of the Hoteliers' Association, and, as to the other half, representatives of the Board of Governors of the Commercial College, In practice that arrangement, strange though it may seem, appears to work very well. What your Lordships may consider to be of some little significance is the fact that to-day the demand by students for entrance into that College is greater than the accommodation available for the students. I should be inclined to say that there is a definite connection between the existence of the Catering Wages Act and the increase in demand by students to enter this particular industry.
My knowledge of the problems involved is based on an experience as an ex-con-vener of a municipal transport committee—of which I am still a member—and as an ex-member of a committee on wages and conditions of service. In that experience some of these rather peculiar terms, such as "split shifts," "spread-overs" and so on, have
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become quite familiar to me. Indeed, it has been part of my experience as a negotiator—representing, by the way, the employers' side of the negotiations—to have to deal with the demands of trade unions in which all these peculiar considerations are involved. I hope your Lordships will agree, therefore, that my knowledge is to some extent extensive as distinct from intensive.
My own feeling about this debate is that it is rather unreal to link up the operation of the Catering Wages Act with the advantages to be derived from tourism. Indeed, I believe we should be more logical if we regarded this as an inquiry into the operation of the wages boards. As the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, clearly indicated, we are all surely in favour of improving the tourist industry; we are all desirous to ensure the best possible service to the general public; and we all wish to encourage friends from abroad to visit us in our own country—and, if I may say so, not merely because of the dollars they will spend with us, but also because it is one way of cementing friendship with the peoples of other countries, which we would all welcome. I admit, of course, that any dollars which come our way are an acceptable by-product of what I consider even more important, and that is the cultivation of international friendship. But the real purpose of the Act was—and I would state this, not in opposition to what the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, said—and I quote from the Forster Report:
"to make provision for regulating remuneration and conditions of employment of catering and other workers"
and also to see to the
"health and welfare and the general improvement and development of the industries in which they are employed."
In the whole of the catering industry there are, as I am informed, over half a million people concerned. It is true that the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, mentioned the figure of 150,000, but I assume that that number referred to those in the licensed premises.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Yes, the licensed premises.
LORD GREENHILL: We have, as I say, to consider this body of half a million workers, who, because of the uncertainty

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inherent in the nature of their occupation, were never closely organised and who, in consequence, suffered the disadvantage of having to make individual arrangements with their particular employers. I submit that all that has now happened is that workers are no longer exposed to the haggling of the market: they are no longer dependent upon haphazard earnings fluctuating according to the whim or mood of those who patronise these establishments. They are now assured of a minimum standard of wages; of conditions of service mutually agreed and not imposed upon employees, and of gradings mutually recognised as appropriate to the industry. May I say here, in view of the references which have been made by noble Lords to the large number of grades which appear both in the Report and in the regulations, that this large number is. I am informed, less than the number submitted by the Hoteliers' Association, and that in any event these gradings can be so arranged—in the case of the smaller establishments who obviously cannot possibly employ all of them—as to meet the requirements of the particular hotel and thereby simplify what appears to be on the surface a rather complicated arrangement. In other words, the industry is now somewhat belatedly operating under conditions universally recognised in industry as being in keeping with present-day industrial requirements.
One noble Lord remarked that he did not know why this Act was introduced in 1943. In fact, it was the outcome of twenty-five years of agitation. I understand that as long ago as 1929 or there-abouts Miss Margaret Bondfield was instrumental in another place in getting an Inquiry established—and there was one even before that. What is the extent of the employers' dissatisfaction with the operations of these wages boards? As has already been indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, of the five categories of catering establishments only two. the unlicensed residential and the licensed residential, have found difficulties. Of these two, the unlicensed have been given up as hopeless, because, as the Forster Report tells us, it is recommended that the existing board should be abolished. In view of what has been said about the unlicensed establishments, noble Lords might wish to know what the Report has
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to say about the unlicensed residential people. In paragraph 168, on page 40, the Committee say:
"It seems to us somewhat extraordinary in the circumstances that between the time when the U.R. (3) Proposals were published and the latest date for representations upon them, any member of the Wages Board who had moved for their publication—much less the leader of the employers' side—should have engaged in active propaganda against their acceptance. Upon the subject of his intervention, the leader of the employers' side of the Unlicensed Board was not, we feel, entirely frank. To characterise at public meetings as 'calculated to end your solvency and sanity promptly and permanently,' Proposals which he had himself moved should be published, is not likely to inspire the hope that the Board will ever reach any satisfactory conclusion."
Therefore, we may wipe out the position of the unlicensed from our consideration at the moment.
We are then left with the licensed residential people alone. Even here, while recognising the difficulty of satisfactory classification, advances towards satisfactory arrangements have been made, for, as the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, pointed out, this Report now divides the licensed establishments into "Large London," "Large Provincial" and "Small" establishments. If I sensed Lord Balfour's argument aright, he believes that the whole of the difficulty lies with the smaller establishments only—those who have neither the staffs not the experience to deal with these matters. There may be room for some kind of modification. The noble Lord has suggested that the modification might take the form of determining these classifications according to the number of bedrooms. He added also the question of turnover. I myself think that, so far as bedrooms are concerned, that might be a satisfactory basis upon which to make the classification. I do not quite understand why the factor of bar drawings should come into the classification at all. But there, again, under the recommendations of the Forster Report there is opportunity to enter into these questions with a view to hammering out the difficulties and, possibly, a recommendation.
May I say one more or less final word? I am aware that the Forster Committee considered representations from several organisations in Scotland. I am also aware that their Report has come down against the idea of a separate Wages Board for Scotland. I am further aware that the trade unions are, on the whole,

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against the setting up of a separate Wages Board for Scotland. But I wonder whether I dare suggest that we might perhaps give another look at this question of a separate Wages Board for Scotland, for these two reasons. The first is that in the present state of Scottish sentiment I think that if we gave them the feeling that we recognised that they had problems peculiarly their own it might dispel the criticism that Scotland was regarded as a mere appendage of England. The second is—and I base this belief on my experience as a member of the Counties of Cities Association—that frequently in the consideration of questions dealing with the setting up of boards for Scotland as distinct from England, there is a conflict of views. Some people take the view that a Board should be set up because workers in England always get higher wages than those in Scotland, and Therefore Scotland would benefit; and, on the other hand, there is a feeling that, with the best will in the world, Scotland never gets the best representation. It is extremely difficult to come down to a balanced view of the whole problem. Therefore, I simply put it out as a suggestion that might be taken into consideration.
Of this I am fairly certain: that if only we can be convinced that good will exists between the employers, on the one hand, and the workers, on the other, given time to settle down to what is the universal practice in trade union organisation (after all, the three or four years that this Act has been in operation is not a long time), the employers will become accustomed to the method of negotiation and will find that the Wages Boards work quite well. In that way, employers, workers and the general public will all benefit.
6.2 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords. I am particularly fortunate on only the second occasion on which I have addressed your Lordships in finding it my task to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, on behalf of your Lordships, on his maiden speech. I too am serving my apprenticeship here. It worries me a little that the noble Lord who has arrived after me is much more obviously nearer the end of his apprenticeship than
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I am. I expect we shall hear him speak on many occasions in the future, and I for one shall be listening to him with very great interest.
I want to mention only one point to-night, and to put forward one suggestion, and I will try not to repeat what has already been said. It seems to me that one of the main difficulties we face is that all the regulations and orders made under the Catering Wages Act seek to treat the whole country as one unit: the regulations are the same for the whole country. We all know that every area has different problems from those of the next area (I am not thinking of Scot-land at the moment), and there are even differences between one hotel and the next. I am advised, and I believe, that if conditions of employment were fixed on a regional and not on a national basis many of our difficulties would disappear. To show your Lordships what I mean, I should like to draw your attention to the peculiar circumstances and difficulties of a group of towns, the whole of whose population is to some extent affected by the working of this Act—I refer to the northern seaside hotel resorts, towns such as Scarborough and Filey. I mention those two only because I know them best, but what I am going to say applies equally to the other Yorkshire resorts, and to most of those in Lancashire. Their problems are largely distinct from those of the south coast resorts. In the south, towns such as Brighton, Bournemouth and Torquay, have a series of seasons spread over twelve months. In the north we have a four-months' season, and the height of that season lasts ten weeks; it is during that period that everyone concerned has to earn his or her living to last over the twelve months.
Again, in the north our visitors come largely from the industrial areas, such as the West Riding, and those people, not unnaturally, like their holiday resorts to be holiday resorts, and nothing else. That fact makes it difficult to try and start any secondary industry on any large scale. Moreover, anyone who wants to start a factory would clearly rather do so in the industrial area, than be tucked away by the seaside. In the south, at any rate in Essex, Kent and Sussex, I am told that the large additional hotel staffs that are required in July, August, and most of September, come to a large extent from the London area, and go back to the

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London area at the end of that crowded season. This, obviously, makes labour questions easier there than with us in the north, because in the north our inland hotels have their main season at the same time as the seaside hotels. The result is that in cur northern seaside towns, the whole population is to a large extent dependent on a successful summer season, whether a man works in an hotel, in a shop, as the groundsman of a golf course, or even as a fisherman.
What have these towns to provide? They have to provide accommodation, food, service, and entertainment of the standard that the visitor requires (and that standard is going up every year) and at the right price. Of course, the basis of a successful summer season in these places is in having adequate, efficient hotels and boarding-houses. We have heard mention to-day of luxury hotels. We do not go in for them very much at these seaside resorts in the north. We go in for large hotels but not the sort of hotel which can apparently charge what it likes, and have double and treble staffs. We like value for money, and in Yorkshire that means a lot of value and not too much money. We all know—and there is no argument about this—that the effect of this Act has been greatly to raise the cost of running an hotel. With the general rise in prices, this increase has to be passed on to the visitor. What is an hotel proprietor to do? He can increase his charges, but increased charges mean decreased profits if people will not pay those increased charges, and I think it is fair to say that the time has now come when hotel proprietors can no longer afford to put up their prices. The alternative, of course, is to decrease the standard of food or service. My Lords, that is a very dangerous thing to do in the seaside town. People come to these hotels year after year, and recommend them to their friends. They expect a certain standard of comfort, and if suddenly they do not get that standard of comfort, they get annoyed and tell their friends, and it may well be that that hotel is half empty the next year.
I do not want to go into all the details of why it is so difficult to run hotels; other noble Lords have dealt with this problem, and no doubt will do so. But there are one or two other matters that I should like to mention. In so far as I can find out from discussing the matter
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with the hotel proprietors, they have no objection to the theory of a minimum wage, or, indeed, to the amount of the minimum wage as at present fixed. They have no objection to the theory or principle of overtime, but they find quite insupportable the amount and incidence of the overtime payments, the reasons for which those payments have to be made, and the period for which they have to be made. Particularly in these short-season towns, hotel-keepers find that if the overtime payment requirements are honestly carried out they are losing money.
Then we come to the compulsory rest-day, (I do not think it has yet been mentioned today), the most unpopular feature in a town which has a season for only a few weeks. It is unpopular with everyone. Proprietors have found that it is completely impossible to get temporary staff to take the place of people who are having their rest day. As a result the service goes down, as it is bound to do. The staff also dislike this compulsory rest day. It is a strange thing, but if you ask any single one of them, he will tell you that it is always on his rest day, when he is away, that the most generous visitors leave the hotel, so that he misses the tips. But, from the point of view of the staff, there is one much more serious matter. It has been the practice in times past, at any rate in my part of the world, for most of the hotels to keep on the majority of their staffs throughout the winter, although they have no real work for them. It was done largely by private arrangement; it suited both sides. The proprietor liked it because he was able to keep together his first-class staff, ready for the next season. The staff liked it because it enabled them to carry on during the winter, without dipping into the savings they had made as the result of their summer season. The position now, however, is that no hotel can afford to do that, and private arrangements with the staff are, I understand, illegal. The consequence is that most of these people are dismissed after only a short season.
What are they to do? It has been suggested that they should find temporary work elsewhere, because there is none in these towns in the winter. But many of these people have families and houses in the town, and it cannot seriously be suggested that they should leave their families and homes for seven or eight

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months of the year. The alternative is to take permanent employment elsewhere. It is not very easy to do that, with the present housing shortage, but carried to its logical conclusion that practice would mean that in the following year only about one-half of the hotels in the place could open, so that there would be no accommodation for the industrial workers on holiday. It all sounds very complicated, but I am advised that if there were a great variation in conditions of employment, according to areas (I am not talking about minimum wages but about conditions of employment and rest days—perhaps instead of rest days taking additional holidays at the end of the season, and so on) satisfactory arrangements could be made which would please all sides of the industry.
6.14 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I too deem it a great honour to follow the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, after his excellent maiden speech to-day. He described himself as an apprentice. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to this debate if he had described himself as a commis—and a very promising commis at that. Other speakers have mentioned the Festival of Britain and the effect of the Catering Wages Act in that connection. I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I also mention the Festival of Britain, because I have just returned from America, where I have been doing my best to induce American visitors to come to this country next year.
I spent nearly four weeks over there visiting about ten cities, and I called on some sixty American travel agents in those cities. I found that the American travel agent "knew his stuff" very well indeed. One of the first questions that he asked me was: "What are you going to do about your hotels?" I do not propose to enter into a comparison between American hotels and British hotels. Of course, they have the great advantage on the technical side, in that they have hundreds of rooms with bathrooms. They are what one might describe as wonderful machines. But I think that we here have one big advantage over the American hotel—and I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, will agree with me: that our personal service is very much better. I suggest that the provisions of this Catering Wages Act and the Forster
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Report are injuring that service which has made it possible for us to compete with the American hotels.
As the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough said, it is very often a question either of curtailing services or of increasing prices. With the present rate of exchange, our prices ought to compare very favourably with those of the American hotels, and though their food prices are very much higher than ours, when one looks into it their room prices are not so much higher as one would expect. An American travel agent was telling me that he thought that in some cases our prices were too high. So that even the American, who is supposed to be able to afford the highest prices, is beginning to say "Your hotel prices are high." I will not go into details of the way in which service is being reduced, because that has been dealt with by previous speakers. I would, however, tell the noble Earl, Lord Manvers, that he is slightly inaccurate about Australia. In an Australian country town, you can get nothing to eat after 6.30 p.m., except eggs and bacon at the Greek cafe—or the "Dago shop," as it is called. I hope we shall not come to that.
I should like to turn for a moment to some of the suggestions in the Report of Sir John Forster on the operation of the Catering Wages Act. One thing that was said was that on the Catering Wages Board the interests of the large hotels have overshadowed those of the small hotels. I do not think that is true, because, although two or three years ago the representation was uneven, it has now greatly improved, and I think on the employers' side the hotel industry is very fairly represented. But I do think it is the case that on the workers' side all sections of the industry are not represented, because practically the only hotels where trade union men are employed are the larger hotels, and particularly those in the large towns. Thus the staffs of the smaller country hotels are not really represented at all. I know it is a sort of fetish of the noble Lords opposite that nobody can represent an industry unless he belongs to a trade union. I do not think that is true. It would be quite possible to find individuals from these small country hotels who would put the case for the employees' side very well indeed. After all, the Navy, does it in the port canteen committees.

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They pick competent individuals to represent the lower deck point of view on a committee, as the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, knows perfectly well. I maintain that it is not absolutely essential for a man to belong to a trade union in order to represent the employees' point of view.
Another recommendation is that a simplification of wage regulations and relaxation of stringent conditions is required for the small hotel. I entirely agree with that view, but I think it is required for all types of hotel. After all, if a large industrial concern employing some hundreds of men employs a fully qualified joiner, and a small industry employing a few men employs a fully qualified joiner, you would not expect to ask the bigger concern to pay a higher wage. As Lord Balfour has said, there are difficulties in regard to spreadover and so forth but these occur throughout the industry. I cannot altogether agree with one statement by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour. I think it would be very difficult to classify hotels in any sort of groups. They vary infinitely. They have different clientele, different room prices, and different standards, and I think it would be quite impracticable to divide them arbitrarily into various categories. I know that the trade unions say that the large hotels are perfectly all right because they can operate a shift system. That may be all right if you can persuade the general public to eat and sleep in shifts, but that I am afraid you will never be able to do. So far as I know, the only occasion in recent times upon which that was ever done was in the "Queen Mary" and in the "Queen Elizabeth," when they crossed the Atlantic carrying a whole brigade of American troops. They had to sleep eight hours each, three to a bunk and meals were being served continuously.
My Lords, I think there is one way in which we could greatly simplify this wages system. As many speakers have said, there are some 130 different grades of employees. It seems to me that the hotel employee would be perfectly well safeguarded if a basic wage for each group were prescribed by the Act. I am sure that the catering establishment or hotel which wants a man of higher skill is prepared, as has always been the case, to pay more for him. In fact it cannot obtain skilled staff without doing so. I think it would greatly simplify this Act
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and in no way whatsoever injure the employee, if only the basic wages were set out.
Finally, I come to a question which has been mentioned by practically every noble Lord who has spoken this afternoon. To me it appears the most important matter of all—I refer to the question of tipping. As I have said before in this House, I have been frequently tipped, starting from the day at Claridge's when I, a naval cadet, was mistaken for a page. It has gone on through life, and on a train during the recent war I was tipped as a Pullman attendant, when in fact I was a Naval lieutenant-commander. There is nothing degrading about tipping, and I expect other noble Lords have been tipped. After all, tipping comes in exactly the same category as an incentive bonus in any other industry, and the trade unions strongly support incentive bonuses. What has been the result of practically ignoring tipping in this Catering Wages Act? In my view, the whole wage structure in the hotel industry has been completely upset.
By the nature of things there is always bound to be a certain amount of jealousy and bad blood between the staff behind the scenes and what I might call the tippable staff in the front. That has been very much accentuated by this Act. I suggest that an employer who puts a man in the position—as in the case of a link-man—of earning a wage running into four figures a year, has done his job, without having to pay him a large wage as well. Of course, everybody in the hotel knows perfectly well what that man was earning before and what he is earning now. They strongly resent the fact that he is earning a much higher wage, in addition to his tips. I believe it is true to say that as a result of this Act 95 per cent, of the increases in wages went to staff already in receipt of tips, and the remaining five per cent, went to what one might call the "back room boys" Obviously, that situation is creating very great dissatisfaction. A solution of the tipping problem simply must be found, and I think the way to do it is 10 pass it back to the wages boards and tell them to get on with it and find a solution. I think the people with a real knowledge of the industry could find a solution, if only they were left to do so. To talk about a further national Inquiry is quite absurd.

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My Lords, to sum up: first, I do not think it is possible to classify hotels into various groups. Secondly, I believe that it is absolutely essential that the wages system should be simplified, and I think it could be done by prescribing basic rates only. Lastly, and above all, it is absolutely essential that the problem of tipping should be faced and dealt with as soon as possible.
6.26 p.m.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, your Lordships will agree that the subject we have discussed has been an interesting one, and I think you will feel indebted to my noble friend, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, for bringing it up to-day. A number of important points have been raised during the debate. I would refer very briefly to only one or two of them before offering my few remarks. The noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, stressed the domestic character of the industry. That theme has run through a number of speeches. Not since I was a boy have I had the good fortune of the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, of being tipped; but I agree with his contention that it is an incentive which will always remain with us, whatever legislation we pass, and the backroom boys who do not share should be remembered in any formal adjustment. Lord Manvers was inclined to more root and branch methods, but I think he would agree with other speakers that what is at fault is really the tightness of the regulations, and that we seek more flexibility.
Lord Greenhill, in a most interesting and informed maiden speech, which we all enjoyed, gave us a number of things to think about. I am very glad that he agreed with what I was going to say in regard to a separate Scottish Wages Board. But that was only a part of his speech. He saw what was good in the Act and wished to preserve it. So do we. But we suggest that certain alterations are necessary to make it work satisfactorily. May I say, in regard to one point in the noble Lord's speech, that I am told that the information about the 100 grades of staff was submitted by the wages board and not by the Hotel and Restaurants Association? That is my information, but it is open to examination. I am told that the list came from that source. With other members of your Lordships' House, I hope that we shall
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often hear the noble Lord again and that his apprenticeship (if indeed it is to be considered as such), will be a short one, because he is an old hand at speaking.
LORD GREENHILL: If I may be forgiven for interrupting, may I say that the information I was given was that the original list of grades came from the Hoteliers' Association, and that the list actually adopted is a shorter one?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: I have made inquiries of the Association, and I am afraid that the noble Lord has been unwittingly misinformed.
LORD GREENHILL: In that case, I am willing to be corrected.
Lord CLYDESMUIR: A maiden speech is always one about which we have no controversy, and I certainly do not wish to enter into one with regard to this point.
Passing down the list of those who spoke, may I say that I was interested in what Lord Derwent said about a rest day? That is a matter which enters much into the consideration of hotel-keepers especially in the north of Scotland and in remote places generally; I will refer to it later. The remit which the Minister of Labour gave to the Commission of Inquiry was a searching one, and I feel that the Report demonstrated beyond all doubt that there is not sufficient flexibility in the working of the Act, whether as a matter of normal practice or at holiday times. If this debate emphasises that, it will serve a good purpose. It is clearly a fact of which His Majesty's Government were well aware; they obviously had it in mind when they called for the inquiry, but I trust that this debate will underline it. The Act was the work of a Coalition Government during the war, and we are all in agreement as to its purpose, but many of us feel that its too rigid working has done, and is in danger of doing, a considerable amount of harm to the hotel industry. It is not so much the hotel proprietor who complains as the visitor, for he is suffering.
I think that the general standard of service afforded to visitors, more particularly in rural and remote areas, has definitely worsened during the past two or three years, due to circumstances out-side the control of those engaged in the industry. I do not put that all down to

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the working of the Act, for other factors, such as rising costs and transport difficulties, have had their effect. So far as these troubles are capable of remedy, and in particular so far as they lie within the working of the Act, it is our duty to see them remedied and to ensure that good service is restored. I agree with Lord Gifford that we can be proud of our standard of service in this country. He spoke of it in comparison with standards in certain other countries, and, in general, I think we can be proud of the good standard which we have maintained in the past. We want to keep it up, but I am sorry to say that I think it has declined owing to the difficulties of the last few years. The importance of the industry has been underlined, but I shall underline it again by repeating what Lord Balfour of Inchrye said to the effect that as much as £70,000,000 in foreign exchange is within the earning power of the tourist industry. I believe that that is greater to-day than the amount which is within the capacity of either the coal or the shipbuilding industry as earners of foreign currency. Therefore it is a very important consideration indeed.
My Lords, this is St. Andrew's Day, and it would be unnatural if I did not say a few words about Scotland. I am glad that the question of a Scottish Wages Board has been dealt with in the debate, and that there is a measure of agreement upon this matter on both sides. Practically the whole of Scotland, with the exception of a few industrial towns, is a holiday centre, and it attracts tourists from far and wide. It has special characteristics of its own. Your Lordships will remember that the Forster Commission recommended a single Board for the United Kingdom, with committees for large London establishments, large provincial establishments, and small establishments, wherever situated; in fact, a structure on vertical lines. It seems to me that the case for a separate Board for Scotland is a very strong one, because the proportion of small remote establishments to the whole is far greater there than in the rest of the Kingdom. In this connection, I would draw attention to the evidence submitted by the Scottish Tourist Board, of which Mr. Tom Johnston—who, of course, is well known to all Scotsmen—is Chairman, and Professor Knox is a leading member. The Commission, your
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Lordships will recollect, paid high tribute to the work of this Tourist Board. The Board's evidence, which is set out in a pamphlet, which may be in the hands of some of your Lordships, gives striking instances of the effect of the too rigid working of the Act in the rural districts of Scotland. That matter was gone into very fully by the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, and the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, in the debate on October 17. so I do not propose to enlarge upon it to-day.
I would, however, draw your Lordships' attention to the Schedule at the end of the pamphlet, which shows that in the islands and remote coastal districts of Scotland there are over 300 hotels depending on water transport, on ships—where the last arrivals and first departures of steamers inevitably necessitate a minimum hotel working day of over twelve hours, the permitted period of the spread-over. Sometimes the time has to be extended to as much as twenty-one hours, and the average over the 300 hotels is about fifteen hours The arrivals and departures may be late at night or early in the morning, and there may be long hours during the day when things are very quiet. It is a big problem for the hotel keepers in remote areas. Their trade is highly seasonal, and there is no considerable reservoir of labour upon which the hotel keepers in those areas can draw. Many of the remote hotels are inns, and. as such, they are under statutory obligation to keep open all the year round. I suggest that their circumstances ought to be taken into account.
Another factor which makes the North of Scotland different from other parts of Britain is the very long period of daylight in summer. That, of course, has an effect on the habits of visitors. If there were a Wages Board for Scotland, it would be composed of people who understood the special conditions which affect that wide area. It is true that the Commission propose to strengthen Scottish representation on the United Kingdom Board, but we are modest people and we can hardly ask for an absolute majority on a United Kingdom Board. Therefore, we would remain in the minority, although we might receive sympathetic consideration for Scottish cases. I claim that there is sufficient difference between the two countries to make it desirable to have a separate

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board for Scotland. The noble Viscount who is going to reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government may say that that is not possible without an amending Act, because the Government can carry out only recommendations from the Commission. If an amending Act should be necessary, let us face it. In some of our debates we have had discussions on legislation which has been recently enacted, and we have been told that it should be left for some time to prove itself. But this Act has had a run of three years, and if the Government is convinced that amendment of any point is necessary I hope that Parliamentary time will be given for the necessary legislation. A good purpose has been served by the Inquiry, but its recommendations do not, in my opinion, go far enough. It may be necessary for the Government to amend the original Act. If that should be necessary, I hope that they will take early steps to do so.
6.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, this debate has been a very friendly one, although it has dealt with an important matter. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, has largely given the history of the legislation and its purpose. He has also dealt fully with the importance of the industry. This was brought out, too, in the delightful and charming speech of my noble friend Lord Greenhill. May I join in the congratulations which have been extended to him? He certainly did not speak as an apprentice, but as a veteran. The points upon which he touched were clearly dealt with by him, and I can almost say that he seemed to be winding up the debate, with the exception of one matter, with which I will deal a little later. The noble Lord brought out the importance of the debate from an angle different from that emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. He stressed its importance to the employees in the industry, of whom there are between 500,000 and 750,000 registered as depending on this industry for a livelihood.
I shall not refer to conditions existing before the Act, but I think it will be admitted that they were far from satisfactory. That could be attributed largely to the fact that the catering industry, for all
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its importance, did very little to organise itself and bring itself into line with the other industries of the country. I fully appreciate the difficulties it had to meet in doing so, but there was no attempt, even by the larger concerns, to treat the industry as of national importance. The noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, said that at last the Government had recognised this industry as a national industry. The truth is that the Government recognised that it was a national industry long before those who lead it on the employers' side recognised the fact. That was one of the problems with which the industry was confronted. The conditions which existed before the Catering Wages Act could not be justified, and it was essential that an improvement in the working conditions should be brought about, both in the interests of the workers and in the interests of the good employers, who were penalised by the undercutting practised by bad employers. It was this undercutting which was responsible, in the first place, for the introduction of wages boards into our industrial system. I will not describe the catering industry as a "sweated" industry, but it is strange that it had to be treated almost as such to bring some semblance of organisation into it.
When the Catering Wages Act was introduced into another place, the then Minister of Labour said that the Act would do no more than set up machinery for the overhaul of the industry. The operation of this machinery lay in the hands of the industry itself. My right honourable friend said:
"I rely mainly on the creative clauses of this Bill—the clauses which create the Commission, which create the Wages Board and which create the opportunity for the Commission to investigate and report on all the problems concerning this industry. It is the creative side of the Bill which I have striven to achieve more than anything else. I want to make it effective and workable, and I hope that the Bill will be just the digging out of the first foundation upon which a good edifice may be built."
It was fully realised that there would be much difficulty in getting the right kind of machinery, but it can be said that had the machinery which was established under the Act been properly tried out by both partners in the industry in all cases, then the improvement expected at its inception would have been more completely realised than it is at present.

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The noble Lord who opened the debate dealt with the machinery which covered the Catering Wages Commission, which, after all, is acting as the steering committee for the five catering wages boards. The fact that there are five separate boards is an indication of the complex problems arising from the conditions in the industry. Those problems are brought out in the functions of the separate boards, of which the first three cover canteens, public-houses and clubs, and cafes. I agree with what the noble Lord said, that possibly it was easier to carry through a scheme for canteens, although that was not too easy, in view of the varying industrial conditions which existed and had to be met. Because of licensing hours, a wages scheme for public-houses was easier, but again there was great difficulty in regard to cafes. It should be remembered that these three boards cover nearly 130,000 establishments throughout the country, establishments which employ the majority of the workpeople in the industry. Not a single word of complaint or criticism of the work of these three boards has been mentioned in this debate.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I agree with the noble Viscount that there has been no criticism of these boards; I do not think there is any need—but they are not covered by my Motion.
Viscount HALL: They are not included in the Motion, but at the same time it is as well to put the position in a proper perspective. The noble Earl, Lord Manvers, as my noble friend Lord Derwent rightly said, wanted to destroy the Act root and branch, and to go back to the "good old days." As the noble Earl is probably about my own age, that would mean going back to what the industry was like some forty years ago. We can never go back to conditions of that kind, and I think that is generally recognised.
Let me now come to a board which has given great difficulty—namely, the wages board covering unlicensed hotels and boarding houses. My noble friend Lord Greenhill has dealt with these establishments, and I am not going to deal with them in great detail. Unlicensed hotels and boarding houses number between 60,000 and 80,000, and form one of the largest sections of the industry. They have little or no organisation for
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their protection, or for the protection of their workpeople. Had I been a member of a board which had received the strictures which the Catering Wages Commission made in respect of the board for unlicensed hotels and boarding houses, I should feel very sorry for myself. Those strictures are summed up in six words, "Four wasted years with nothing done." I can quite understand why the Commission was anxious to have one board instead of two.
A different story can be told in relation to the board dealing with licensed hotels and restaurants, around which the debate has mainly centred today. As the noble Lord rightly said, this board deals with a relatively small number of establishments, but they form a vitally important section of the industry. It is against this board that much of the criticism has been directed, but it can be said that this board has done well in a difficult situation, for there was no previous experience of voluntary wage agreements to draw upon in the industry, and it was therefore necessary for the board to start from scratch. The flexibility of the wages boards can be understood by the changes which have been made by this board. Their first order was made in January, 1948, and in reply to criticism the order was amended some eighteen months later. This went a long way to remedy the worst anomalies of the first order, but it did not entirely remove all he causes for complaint, and in December of last year, as has already been stated, the Minister of Labour directed the Commission to review the position in the licensed hotel industry.
I should like to say that I attribute much of the success of the work of this board to the chairman of the board, who is a member of your Lordships' House, Lord Terrington. In all the difficult discussions carried on by this board during the period from February, 1946, to the end of 1949, the independent members were called in on only nine occasions. Despite the noble Lord's reference to experienced trade union leaders dealing with innocent business men who had no experience of meeting these clever men, there was this large amount of agreement. Whatever can be said about Regulation 7, that was an agreed finding of the Licensed Establishments Wages Board. On the nine occasions when the independent members were called in to give a

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vote, seven decisions were given in favour of the employers and against the workers' representatives, and two were given in favour of the workers' representatives and against the employers. To my mind, it was the trade union representatives, if anyone, who had a grouse—but I am sure they did not grouse. This scheme was accepted, and it is this agreed scheme about which there has been so much criticism. The Commission in their Report paid tribute to the work done by this board by saying:
"Indeed, the attitude of some of the wit-nesses on both sides of the Licence Board inspired us with confidence in the future working of the machinery."
They took the view that some initial difficulties and misunderstandings were being ironed out, and that defects due to early inexperience in the operation of wage regulation machinery were being remedied. Let me repeat that the power which the wages board have in the initial inquiries into working conditions is such that they can take into consideration the varying and complex conditions, and reduce the varying grades and build up a negotiating machine of which the industry is in such need.
I do not want to join in the controversy which has arisen with regard to the varying grades. A statement made by my noble friend Lord Greenhill was questioned. If the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, will look at paragraph 120 of the Report, he will find that my noble friend was not so far out in the statement which he made. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour, suggested in his speech that it might be better if on the workers' side some of the trade union officials were replaced by persons actually employed in the industry. This argument was put to and considered by the Catering Wages Commission during the course of their recent inquiry. I agree that at first sight this argument seems attractive. I fully agree that both sides of the wages board should include a proportion of persons actually engaged in the industry. But officials, both of trade unions and of employers' organisations, have their place too. Indeed, it is on the officials that the main responsibility for making the board function must rest. Wage negotiating is a skilled job which is best done by persons who have had long experience. Those who are sitting on
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the workers' side of these boards are selected from trade unions who have trade union membership employed in the industry—and there are many members of the various trade unions now employed in the industry. Unorganised workers and employers can speak only for themselves. Officials of trade unions and employers' organisations can represent the interests of all their members through-out the whole country.
It was further suggested by the noble Lord who opened the debate that the Catering Commission were not an appropriate body to undertake an inquiry into the effect on the hotel industry of the operation of the Wages Act. I would point out, however, that the very reason why the Act created the Commission was to provide a permanent independent board, aloof from the wage negotiations of the wages boards, which could keep a continuous oversight over the development and well-being of this industry, including the operation of the wages board machinery. The members of the Commission, while completely independent of the board and catering trades, have a wide experience in industrial relations, and in the course of time have acquired an intimate knowledge of the catering industry.
I should like here to say that the Com-mission were very well served in having Sir John Forster as their Chairman, a man of outstanding experience and ability in handling arbitrations and inquiries of this kind. The Commission have the complete confidence of the industry, and their views carry greater authority than would those of a specially appointed ad hoc Commission of Inquiry. It should be pointed out that the Commission were assisted by a number of assessors, drawn from both sides of the industry, including a Scottish representative. In addition, no fewer than forty organisations, representing every section of the industry—a list is contained at the end of the Report—besides many independent members, workpeople and employers were consulted. I think it can be truly said that the Commission were in every way an independent Commission, and could not be improved upon.
Nearly every noble Lord who has taken part in the debate has raised the question of the practice of tipping in the industry. It is true, as noble Lords have said, that tipping does take place. Tipping, after

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all, is a legacy which has been handed down in the industry over a very long period. I was rather interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, said in relation to a minimum wage. He was quite prepared to establish a minimum wage, entirely apart from the question of tipping. He said that he would regard tipping as an incentive—as something in addition to the agreed wage to encourage a particular industry to do more work.
LORD GIFFORD: I spoke about those two things separately. I sought to do away with these 130 different grades. I thought that the interest of the employee would be served if, in each group or section of the industry, a minimum wage were prescribed, taking into account the fact that tipping took place.
VISCOUNT HALL: Then it would not be very much of an incentive if workers' wages were reduced because of the tips they received. I am not so sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be very pleased if this were brought about, because the more wages a man received the happier the Chancellor would be, because of the extra revenue from taxation.
This question of tipping has given the Commission and the wages board cause for much thought. Early in 1947 the Minister directed the Commission to inquire into the problems affecting the remuneration of catering workers resulting from the practice of giving tips. The Commission at that time sought information separately from the chairmen of the employers' representatives and the workers' representatives of the five wages boards, who readily co-operated, giving full information on the many aspects of this question which had been exhaustively examined by the board. The Commission were assisted by receiving not only their representative views, but also their personal views. The result was that the Commission were unanimously of the opinion that tips should be disregarded by the wages board in assessing statutory minimum rates of wages. The information given was that it would be to the benefit of both employees and the public that tipping should cease to be relied upon as an essential part of a worker's living wage, since the amounts received by way of tips fluctuated as widely as possible between one grade of employee and another, between one establishment and
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another, and between one period and another; and that it was a practical impossibility to make a general assessment of the cash value of tips. The Report indicates that much consideration was again given to this question by the Commission, for no less than twenty-three paragraphs of the Report deal with it.
I am of the opinion that the suggestion in their summary that a national joint committee should be established to examine, as a matter of urgency, the whole question of tipping, is the only way in which to deal with this matter. After all, it must be remembered that tipping is not confined to the catering trade alone. There are many other trades where tips are possible, although not to the same extent as they are in the catering trade. But if you are to penalise one industry, then, of course, you will have-to deal with this matter so that it will cover the other industries as well. It would be very unfair to penalise one industry unless there could be some general agreement in relation to this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, suggested, with other noble Lords, that the Commission should give a directive to any such committee that the practice of tipping must be accepted, and must be taken into account in any recommendations which they might make on this question. As was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, the Minister has no power under the present legislation to give a directive to the Boards. That could be done only by an amendment of the Act, and. of course, it is left now for the Minister, the Commission and the boards to consider that recommendation.
The question of a separate Wages Board for Scotland has again been raised. Your Lordships will remember that this matter was fully debated in your Lordships' House on October 17, and there is little or nothing that I can add to what was so well said then by my noble friend Lord Morrison, other than to remind your Lordships that this matter has been under consideration on no fewer than three occasions: first, when considering the original split-up of the industry as between different wages boards; secondly, following the Knox Report and, finally, on this Report. The main recommendations of the Forster Report are that two of the existing wages boards (those for

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licensed and unlicensed establishments) should be replaced by a single board, assisted by committees representing the various classes of establishment—a proposal which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, supported—and that a national joint committee of the industry should be appointed to consider the vexed question of tipping. These suggestions are now being considered by the Minister. Within the last few days, he has received the last of the observations of both sides of the industry who have been examining them.
I now come to the immediate steps to be taken to deal with the anomalies in the existing wages order, to which noble Lords have referred this afternoon. I have no wish to minimise these difficulties, because difficulties there are. Indeed, those of us who have occasion to stay in small hotels, not only in Scotland or in Wales but in England as well—particularly in the rural areas and in the more remote parts—know all about these difficulties. The Forster Report has drawn attention to all these difficulties, and has made constructive recommendations for overcoming them. These recommendations cover such problems as split duties spread-over, overtime, night duty, time off and holidays, and I think they might take into consideration the suggestion which was made by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, in dealing with rest days and adding them as holidays at the end of the season. I thought that that was a suggestion that might well be considered.
We have heard this afternoon of all these difficulties, and as soon as my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour received the Report in August he appreciated that it was most important that early decisions should be reached on the recommendations. Therefore, he referred the whole of them to the Wages Board on the very day that the Report was published. The recommendations obviously take a little time to consider, but it will now be possible for the Board, if it sees fit, to submit to the Minister revised suggestions which can be operative in the new Wages Regulation Order which we hope will be introduced before the beginning of the 1951 season. So probably many of the suggestions—and indeed much of the criticism—which have been made here to-day are now being considered by the Wages Board and I
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have no doubt that they will submit their recommendations in relation to this matter. I wish here to emphasise that the Minister himself has no power to initiate or amend a Wages Regulation Order and that he can act only on proposals submitted to him by a catering wages board. The Minister has done all that could possibly be expected of him in helping the industry to solve its problems without interfering with the independence of the wages boards. The solution now lies with the industry, and there is nothing in the machinery under the Act to prevent this matter being speedily dealt with.
My Lords, what we want is a contented and efficient industry. We all wish that that should be brought about. We think that if this machinery is made to work, as time goes on the industry will be able to deal with its affairs on a voluntary basis of collective bargaining, such as function so successfully, not only in the other great industries in this country, but also in the hotel industry in other countries—for example in Switzerland. We are told that there is almost a complete organisation of both sides of the industry managing their own affairs and, indeed, conducting the industry, which is a credit to all who are associated with it.
I do not think I can conclude better than by quoting the words of the Commission:
We desire to stress the fact that experience in Switzerland and other continental countries has shown clearly that from the point of view of the public, and of the employers and workers in the hotel industry, a completely satisfactory structure of wages and conditions can best be built up gradually on the basis of voluntary collective agreements. Such agreements can more easily take account of the varying conditions of the industry and thus ensure greater flexibility. It is to be hoped that better understanding on the Wages Board will eventually lead to complete organisation of both sides of the industry. Mean-while we regard the present statutory machinery as essential until such time as it can be re-placed by collective bargaining based on mutual good will and understanding.
This country ought not to take second place to any country in the world in the building up of its negotiating and conciliation machinery. Indeed, in that respect we have led the world in our main industries. I have no doubt at all that there is sufficient ability in the industry we have been discussing to-day to ensure that if they give the Wages Board a fair

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chance, taking into consideration all the difficulties which have arisen in the course of a short time, we shall be able to say that here we have an industry which is making a great contribution to our national well-being and which will give to those on both sides the reward which they deserve.
7.16 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I should like to thank and I am sure other noble Lords would also like to thank the Minister for his reply, and express my gratitude to noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Particularly should I like to add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, on his maiden speech. He said that he spoke with the rawness of a new apprentice. If your Lordships will allow me to say so. he showed the skill of an old hand and subtlety in presenting the most favourable aspect of his points; and on Scotland, showing the direction of his own mind without embarrassment to his own mind, he showed the subtleness of a skilled debater.
I want to say only two things to the noble Lord. I thought he was a little unfair to the Unlicensed Board in his strictures in quoting the Commission's words "Four wasted years and nothing done." Perhaps that Board found their task was even more difficult and in some ways more impracticable than the task which faced the Licensed Board; and perhaps by no action they avoided the admitted errors which caused delay to Licensed Regulation 3, the substitution of Licensed Regulation 7 for Licensed Regulation 3, and the necessity for the Forster Commission to get over the difficulties which have been caused by Licensed Regulation 7. Lord Greenhill quoted the words at pages 40 and 41 when the Chairman said of the Unlicensed Board:
"Upon the subject of his intervention, the leader of the employers' side of the Unlicensed Board was not, we feel, entirely frank. To characterise at public meetings as 'calculated to end your solvency and sanity promptly and permanently,' proposals which he had himself moved should be published, is not likely to inspire the hope that the Board will ever reach any satisfactory conclusion."
It reminds me of Bagehot, who said that the habit of common and continuous speech was a symptom of mental deficiency. I want to say one word on
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tipping. The noble Lord came forward and said, in a sort of pained and surprised voice: "Tipping does take place," rather as if he had just discovered the facts of life.
VISCOUNT HALL: I told you it was a legacy.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Of course it takes place, and I hope that those responsible will face up to the realities of the situation. The noble Viscount said that it was impossible to put a cash value on tips. The. trouble is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does, so perhaps those responsible might have a look at how the Chancellor does what the noble Viscount says is impossible. Finally, of the Scottish Board he said: "This has been under consideration three times." I am still full of hope when I think of the things that have been under consideration three, four or five times in this Government and have finally been altered. I remember the pay code for the Services, and the debates in this House in which we pressed for an increase. The Government said that everything was all right, but on the fourth or fifth occasion they altered their minds. So perhaps in relation to Scotland, having had the matter considered three times, the Government will soon be changing their minds and coming to the right decision. With those final remarks, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

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