Sitting of 10 May 1950

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL NAVY

    Married Quarters
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will extend the scheme whereby furnished houses or flats may be hired for use as married quarters, to cover all cases where married quarters are not available.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): No, Sir. This scheme, as in the case of the other two Services, has been adopted as a temporary measure to ease the present shortage of married quarters at places where the number of quarters available falls short of the number it is intended to build. Our present policy is to provide married quarters in the United Kingdom only at certain naval air stations and other remote establishments, and the hiring scheme is restricted to these places.
    Commander Noble: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this scheme has been going in the other Services far longer, and that the Navy really is not in line?
    Mr. Edwards: I understand that we are in line so far as the application of the scheme is concerned. I want to emphasise that this is just a stop-gap scheme until the complement of married quarters has been erected in various establishments.
    Captain Ryder: Are we to understand from the reply that there is no shortage of accommodation near naval dockyards?
    Mr. Edwards: I do not think that arises.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: How long does the hon. Gentleman anticipate it will be before the complement of married quarters is achieved?
    Mr. Edwards: I could not say how long, but we are getting on as quickly as possible.

    Dockyard Workers (Redundancy)
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how the redundancy rules in the dockyards have been changed as a result of the new merit awards.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The only change made in the rules governing redundancy amongst Admiralty industrial employees in the United Kingdom, following the introduction of the new merit pay scheme, is that selections for reversion or discharge on redundancy amongst the titular grades in the paint shop of the constructive departments of the dockyards will be based on the relative merit rating of the individual, as opposed to the former arrangement which was based entirely on seniority.
    Brigadier Clarke: Has the "Last in, first out" rule now been abandoned; and, if so, will length of service be given any consideration at all?
    Mr. Edwards: Length of service is given consideration, but a policy of "Last in. first out" has never been laid down.
    Mr. Michael Foot: In view of the concern that has arisen in the case of some of these new merit awards, would the Civil Lord undertake to give the closest attention to any representations made by the trade unions on the matter?
    Mr. Edwards: We always give the closest attention to representations made by the trade unions, and also by other interested bodies. However, I must say that this principle has been accepted by the trade union side of the S.T.J.C.
    Mr. Foot: Is it open to the trade unions to make representations on individual cases if they arise in this matter?
    Mr. Edwards: Yes, under the joint negotiating machinery.
    Commander Noble: Is any temporary arrangement to cover the transition period being considered? It came out at Question time last week that there are cases of hardship under this new scheme.
    Mr. Edwards: There will always be cases of hardship when redundancy occurs. If some of these people had not had to go others would have to go in their place. This is an arrangement reached with the trade unions, and until the trade unions object to it I think we are justified in going on.
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what redundancy is anticipated in Portsmouth Dockyard in the next six months.
    Mr. W. Edwards: No discharges on redundancy from Portsmouth Dockyard are at present foreseen during the next six months, except that some minor adjustments in the numbers employed may become necessary due to fluctuations in work.
    Brigadier Clarke: Will the Minister give consideration to the fact that there is a lot of unemployment in this town? If there is to be redundancy will he go elsewhere to find it?
    Mr. Edwards: That applies to every dockyard district.
    Mr. Snow: Is the Civil Lord aware that the Lord Mayor of Portsmouth, some months ago, appointed a Committee of which the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Sir J. Lucas) was a distinguished member; that that committee made a unanimous recommendation

    Grade

    London Rate (per annum)

    Provincial Rate* (per annum)

    Deputy Director of Naval Construction

    £2,000

    £1,900

    Deputy Director of Dockyards

    £2,000

    £1,900

    Assistant Director of Naval Construction

    £1,600 X 50—£1,800

    £1,500 X 50—£1,700

    Manager, Constructive Department, H. M. Dockyards

    Chief Constructor

    £1,320 X 50—£1,520

    £1,240 X 50—£1,435

    Constructor

    £900 x 30—£1,100 X 35—£1,250

    £860 x 30—£1,040 X 35—£1,177

    Assistant Constructor

    £550 (at age 26) X 25—£800

    £520 (at age 26) X 25—£760

    * Note: The provincial rate applies in most provincial towns including, for example, Bath and e are intermediate between Liverpool, the rates payable Portsmouth. In others, such as Glasgow and the London and Provincial rates shown above.

    to set up an organization to deal with redundancy and that for frivolous reasons it cancelled the whole arrangement?

    Royal Corps of Naval Constructors
    Captain Ryderasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will give the scales of remuneration now payable for the various grades in the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors after the provincial differentiation has been deducted.
    Mr. W. Edwards: As the answer consists mainly of figures I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Captain Ryder: Is it not a fact that under these new scales certain officials are actually drawing less pay than they did before? How were these new scales of pay arrived at? Was there a discussion with the Whitley Council?
    Mr. Edwards: The Question just asks for the scales of remuneration, and they will be given in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I suggest the hon. and gallant Gentleman waits until such time as he sees them.
    Sir Ronald Ross: Will the Civil Lord bear in mind that trying to get ships designed on the cheap is the most dangerous of all false economies?
    Following is the answer:

    Tradesman, Rosyth (Dismissal)
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if the skilled tradesman recently dismissed from Rosyth Dockyard because of his Communist activities has yet been found suitable alternative employment.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Not yet, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that this man has now been out of work for over one month and is a burden on the taxpayers? Is he also aware that he is giving interviews to Tory newspapers, like a Hollywood film star, and will he take steps to get the man immediately back to work?
    Mr. Edwards: I cannot give a guarantee that we can get him immediately back to work, but if we can find work for him of a suitable character we shall be only too glad to do so.
    Brigadier Medlicott: Can the Minister say whether there are any other cases similar to this under his jurisdiction?
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can my hon. Friend say if, under the rules, Communists now are not eligible for employment in the dockyards, and if that applies to the Navy?
    Mr. Edwards: It is not a question of rules. This action is taken in accordance with a statement made to the House by the Prime Minister in the last Parliament.

    Totnes Racecourse
    Brigadier Raynerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty when, and under what conditions, he proposes to hand over the Totnes racecourse to the local authority or other local body.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The Admiralty have been willing to sell the former racecourse at Totnes to the Totnes Borough Council unconditionally, but the final offer for the property recently made by the Council was entirely unacceptable. They have, therefore, been informed that the Admiralty now consider themselves free to dispose of the property elsewhere. This the Admiralty are proceeding to do, but it is still not too late for the Council to make an increased offer, if they so desire.
    Brigadier Rayner: Does the Civil Lord realise that, like all soldiers, I have a very high opinion of the senior Service, and do not like to see him and his Department playing Shylock? Does he realise that in this case a completely ruined racecourse is being offered to the Totnes Council at an absurd price, and will he look into the matter further?
    Mr. Edwards: I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Admiralty are not taking up the position of a Shylock on this occasion. The Admiralty, as Members of the House would wish them to do, are safeguarding the interests of the taxpayer by seeing that a proper price is paid.

    Re-engagement Committee
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Re-engagement Committee has reported.
    The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. James Callaghan): No, Sir, but I hope the report will be ready by the end of June.
    Commander Noble: Will the report be dealt with quickly when it is received because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, men are leaving the Navy every day, after their 12 years' service, when they are urgently required to stay on?
    Mr. Callaghan: The whole of the Board regards this as a matter of great urgency.

  POST OFFICE

    Advisory Council
    Mr. Errollasked the Postmaster-General what representations the Post Office Advisory Committee have made this year about the inefficiency of the postal services.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Ness Edwards): The proceedings of the Post Office Advisory Council are confidential, but the hon. Member may be assured that the postal services, along with other Post Office services, are currently under consideration by the Council.
    Mr. Erroll: Are any improvements under consideration by the Postmaster-General?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: At the last meeting of the Council, on which hon. Members on the other side of the House sit, certain proposals were considered for improving the position.

    Letters (Customs Examination)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Postmaster-General why a letter posted on 1st January, 1950, by Miss M. L. Stirrup, of Disley, addressed to a friend in Tasmania, was opened by the General Post Office for Customs and Excise examination; and why has this lady had five similar previous letters opened during the past two years.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Letters to overseas destinations are liable to be opened at the request of the Customs authorities under he provisions of the Foreign Postal Packets (Customs) Warrant, 1948, Statutory Instrument, 1948, Number 562. If the hon. and gallant Member can let me have any of the envelopes in question, I shall be happy to have inquiry made.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: The right hon. Gentleman has not explained why this lady has had six letters opened in succession. Will he give an undertaking that this practice will cease forthwith? Is he also aware that the only political remark that this lady has ever made was that the Labour Government were a meddlesome lot?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will read the reply, he will see that I have said that in this matter I have no authority. If the Customs authorities request that a package shall be opened Post Office officials must open the package.
    Mr. Keeling: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the destruction, which his answer reveals, of the whole tradition of the inviolability of the mails is too high a price to pay for any benefit it gives the Customs?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: This is an old-established practice, and not a new thing.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: As I have failed to get satisfaction from the right hon. Gentleman, and because of the bad impression this is giving in the British Dominions, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter again on the Adjournment at an early date.

    Sub-Postmasters (Hours)
    Mr. Remnantasked the Postmaster-General whether he will consult the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters as to the practicability of relieving sub-postmasters of attendance for telegrams after 6 p.m. on weekdays.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: This matter has been under consideration for some time, in conjunction with the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters. The proposal gives rise to serious practical problems and further investigation is proceeding.
    Mr. Remnant: While thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask him if he is aware that these hard-working servants of the Crown are on duty for nearly 6C hours a week, and that as many of them do not receive more than two telegrams a week, between 5.30 and 7.0. they are in some need of alleviation of their hours of duty?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: On the other hand, I am always being pressed to provide a regular and available service. I agree that there are difficulties in this matter. and it will be further investigated

    Staff Associations
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General when he complied with the request of the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association to check their membership figures
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I will with permission, answer this Question and Ouestions Nos. 18 and 22 together.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On a point of Order. Mr. Speaker I understand that your recent Ruling was that the consent of the hon. Member is required for this procedure to be followed. You will note that Question No. 17 refers simply to one date. So far as it is up to me, that permission is not given.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I understand that it is the Minister's right to determine which Questions he proposes to answer together.
    Mr. Speaker: The Minister is entitled to answer Questions in any way he likes, but the hon. Member asking the Question is also entitled to refuse his permission, and he can ask for the same answer to be given twice if necessary
    Mr. Ness Edwards: With regard to Question No. 17, I have not checked the membership figures of the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on 14th December his hon. Friend the Assistant-Postmaster General gave an undertaking to this House that these figures would be checked on 31st December last? Can the right hon. Gentleman say why that undertaking has not been carried out?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: In this matter I can only accept responsibility for my own actions; I answered the hon. Gentleman truthfully.
    Mr. Donner: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is underlying the withholding of this information?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: If the hon. Gentleman will wait until I answer the further Questions he will get an answer.
    Captain Crookshank: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what he meant by saying that he could not accept responsibility for answers given by the Assistant Postmaster-General in this House?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I should have thought that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, who has had a great deal of experience of this side of the House, would have appreciated that any Minister would be caught on the wrong foot if permission was refused him to give answers to a certain number of Questions in one form. I do not lay down as a doctrine that a successor has no responsibility for what has taken place in preceding Sessions. All I can say is that the hon. Gentleman has caught me at a great disadvantage in trying to raise a point which I thought was covered in a much more general answer.
    Captain Crookshank: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was not asking a question about his reply or about its content, but for an assurance that he is not accepting a new theory that he is not responsible for what the Assistant Postmaster-General has said in the House on behalf of the Government?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: This is something that took place before I became Postmaster-General, I have no assurance
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    at all that the statement alleged to have been made by my hon. Friend was made in the House. I took the precaution of asking him before I rose, and he has no recollection of making the statement.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th December, column 266 of Written Answers, where he will see the perfectly explicit undertaking I have quoted? In view of the fact that he appears to be unaware of that undertaking having been given, will he now give an undertaking to carry it out?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am sure that the hon. Member would not wish to put me in an unfair position. I will examine the undertaking that has been given. If the undertaking has been given, it will be my duty to carry it out or give an explanation to the House for not doing so.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association has now for at least seven months had a membership sufficient to entitle it to recognition by him under the existing rules governing recognition, he will now grant such recognition.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am wondering if I can have the permission of the hon. Member to answer this Question with Question No. 22.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: My examination of this problem is now reaching an end, and I hope soon to be able to give an answer.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: With particular reference to Question No. 18, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to the still existing rules, this Association has been entitled to recognition for not less than eight months? Whatever the results of the right hon. Gentleman's consideration of the general problem, can he explain why that recognition has been withheld for that prolonged period?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The hon. Member is quite wrong in his suggestion. That has never been the rule.
    Mr. Awbery: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that this is not a break-away

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    union, and will he explain why the Opposition is so interested in these breakaway unions?
    Mr. Henry Strauss: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that my hon. Friend was quite correct, according to this book published by His Majesty's Treasury last year, "Staff Relations in the Civil Service"? Will he make quite certain that when he comes to his decision he follows the principles the Treasury have there laid lown?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am taking into consideration all the factors in this matter. I am sure that there will be some discussion about this later, but I would inform Members that there are 37 unions in this very narrow service, and that it is like moving through a jungle
    Mr. R. V. Grimston: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to make his statement?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I gave rather a precise date earlier, and I am afraid I rather disappointed the House, but I hope to make it next Wednesday.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to give notice that in view of the completely unsatisfactory reply I shall seek without delay to raise this matter on an appropriate occasion.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General whether he can now make his promised statement as to the result of his consideration of the question of recognition of staff associations in the Post Office.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I understand that this Question was answered with Question No. 18.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir.

    Night Letter and Greetings Telegrams
    Mr. R. V. Grimstonasked the Postmaster-General if he has now given consideration to the reintroduction of the night letter telegram service, as it existed before the war, and to the reintroduction of the greetings telegram service, with the modification that delivery should be by first post on the morning following despatch; and with what result.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am considering these and other proposals, and I will make a statement as soon as possible.

    Overseas Telegrams (Privacy)
    Mr. Eric Fletcherasked the Postmaster-General to what extent the contents of cables received by Cable and Wireless Limited for transmission overseas are treated as confidential.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: All telegrams are treated as confidential.
    Mr. Fletcher: May we take it that that applies to cables received by branches of this company overseas?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: It applies completely to all telegrams coming into or despatched from this country.

    Facilities, Oldhall
    Major Guy Lloydasked the Postmaster-General if he has considered the petition presented to him by the Oldhall and District County Ratepayers' Association, representing 3,000 residents in the area, and asking for full postal facilities to be provided in their district in view of the fact that the nearest post office is approximately two miles away; and whether, in view of the repeated representations which have been made on this subject, he will now provide these facilities.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I have received the petition in question. I am looking into the matter and will write to the hon. and gallant Member as soon as possible.

  BROADCASTING

    Supervisory Powers
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Postmaster-General how many times have the powers to refrain from broadcasting any matter been exercised since the licence and agreement between his Department and the British Broadcasting Corporation dated 29th November 1946
    Mr. Ness Edwards: None, Sir.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the increasing Communist tendency of the B.B.C., will the right hon. Gentleman in future have a close watch kept on the broadcasts from a security point of view, and use his powers fairly?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not propose to exercise any political discrimination.
    Mr. Blackburn: While not accepting the statement of the hon. Member opposite, may I ask my right hon. Friend to consider the case of the third programme, in which "Soviet Point of View" causes a great deal of offence.

    B.B.C. (Trade Unions)
    Mr. G. Cooperasked the Postmaster-General if he has anything further to report on the negotiations between the trades unions and the management of the British Broadcasting Corporation with regard to the claim of the unions for full recognition and to act in any negotiations over wages and conditions affecting members of the unions who are employed by the British Broadcasting Corporation.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I have nothing to add to my reply of 3rd May on this subject.
    Mr. Cooper: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British Actors Equity Association have made representations to the B.B.C. with a view to a joint standing committee being set up for the purpose of dealing with difficulties that may arise between its own members and the B.B.C.? Can he say why similar representation cannot be made by the T.U.C. and trade unions with members in the B.B.C., and will he use his powers to make representations at the B.B.C. to see that a joint standing committee is set up to negotiate with all unions?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I should be reluctant to accept the position of adviser to the B.B.C.
    Sir Herbert Williams: As this Question involves detailed administration of the B.B.C. should it not have been properly addressed to the Minister of Labour?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me. A long and rather complicated supplementary question was put, and I should like to remind the House that what I like are short and snappy supplementary questions.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Byron Exchange
    Mr. Bishopasked the Postmaster-General how many would-be subscribers
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    are waiting for telephones on the Byron exchange; what is the average waiting period; and what steps can he take to improve the position.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The number is 2,631. Of these, 519 applied during the past year, 614 and 450 in the two previous years, and 961 before 1947. Exchange equipment and cables will be provided during the next year to enable about 2,000 of the applicants to be given service.

    Eccles and Swinton Area
    Mr. Proctorasked the Postmaster-General what is the number of applications for telephones outstanding in the areas covered by the Eccles and Swinton telephone exchanges.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The number is 405 and 610.

    Tunbridge Wells
    Mr. Gerald Williamsasked the Postmaster-General how many party telephone lines are being used in Tunbridge Wells; and when he expects to be able to replace these with separate lines.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Two hundred and sixteen subscribers are sharing lines in Tunbridge Wells. I cannot say when conditions will permit of a change in the present arrangements.
    Mr. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the intense feeling against party lines? Cannot he tell us what the trouble really is, and why there should be such a shortage of instruments five years after the war? If he would give us more instruments, it would help trade along.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Debate which took place on this subject some time ago.

    Shared Lines
    Mr. Proctorasked the Postmaster-General if he will consider revising the charges for shared telephone lines; and if he" will consider the possibility of more than two subscribers sharing one line.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Present costs of equipment and labour rule out any further reduction in the rental for shared telephone service. The question of providing service for more than two subscribers on one line is being closely examined

    Call Boxes
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for overhauling all public call boxes between now and the 1951 Exhibition, with a view to giving a better impression to visitors to this country of the standards of the post office telephone service; in particular, for the maintenance of public kiosks at a higher level of repair and cleanliness; and if he will introduce no smoking notices in all boxes.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Steps are being taken at the present time to attain a high standard of up-keep and cleaning of public telephone kiosks. I can assure my hon. Friend that everything possible will continue to be done to make them a credit to this country. I do not propose to introduce no smoking notices which would, in my opinion, be ineffective in any case.
    Mr. Cooper: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the standards of a country are judged by foreign visitors more by the public services than, perhaps, by the standards of any particular exhibition, and will he consider doing some of his telephoning from a public kiosk occasionally to check up on the standards maintained?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do that, and our standards are better now than before the war.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the right hon. Gentleman also ensure the introduction of up-to-date coin boxes as soon as possible?

    Overseas Call (Refund Application)
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the Postmaster-General whether he will reconsider his decision not to refund to a Blackpool company the cost of a telephone call from Blackpool to Alexandria, which was made necessary by the negligence of the Post Office servant mislaying an important cable.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: After having examined the case, I have come to the same conclusion as that conveyed to the hon. Member in the letter of my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General.
    Mr. Low: If I remember correctly, the conclusion in that letter was that the right
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    hon. Gentleman was unable to compensate those who suffered loss through the action of a Post Office official. Will he explain why he has paid compensation to the Egyptians? Does he always prefer Egyptians to British people? Is he aware that the Egyptian——
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member says, "Is he aware?" That is more like giving information than asking for it.
    Mr. Low: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to a letter written to me, which I have to take into account, Sir. Why was compensation paid to the senders of the cable, who Were Egyptians? Why does he single out the Egyptians and not the British people, who suffered?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I was asked why I had not given compensation to a British subject who telephoned abroad instead of consulting the local post office

    Rugby Rural District
    Mr. James Johnsonasked the Postmaster-General the number of farmers in the rural district of Rugby who have had telephones installed since 1945; and how many are still on the waiting list.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Fifty-one have been connected since 1st January, 1946, and there are 41 now on the waiting list.
    Mr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is an urgent matter, and will he give it high priority in view of the need for increased food production?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I have many competing demands, and I try to do my best.
    Captain Waterhouse: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are demands for telephones all over the country and that nothing is being done?
    Mr. Speaker: This Question is about Rugby, and not the rest of the country.

    Carlisle
    Mr. Hargreavesasked the Postmaster-General what number of applicants are waiting for telephone facilities in Carlisle.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Six hundred and eighty-two, including 88 for whom the

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    work of provision is nearing completion. The work of installing 960 additional equipments will start next month.
    Mr. Hargreaves: Can my right hon Friend say whether some of these applications will take three years to complete.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: If my hon. Friend looks at my reply, I think he will be pleased with the progress that is being made.

    U.K.—Malaya Service
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Postmaster-General why Malaya is not in telephonic communications with this country: and by what date he hopes this facility will be available.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The reopening of telephone service between the United Kingdom and Malaya has involved the provision of radiotelephone equipment at a relay point in Nairobi and at the terminal station in Singapore. Speech tests between this country and Malaya, through the relay point in Nairobi, are now being made. If these tests prove satisfactory, it is hoped to reopen the service within two or three weeks.

    Storm Damage
    Mr. John Morrisonasked the Postmaster-General the number of telephones estimated to be cut of order following the recent April snow storms; what is the estimated cost of the damage; and what steps he is taking to prevent a recurrence.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: About 1,230 poles were broken or brought down in the recent snow storm, and 37,800 subscribers were cut off. The total cost of the damage is about £200,000. Telephone lines are being increasingly provided in underground cables and this reduces the risk and extent of storm damage.
    Mr. Morrison: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there is a strong case for putting more telephone cables underground and that the same applies to railway telegraphs, about which I cannot now put a Question to him?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: That would not be within the scope of my Department.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Would my right hon. Friend mind answering the last part of the Question on the Order Paper and
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    telling the House what steps he is taking to prevent a recurrence of the recent April snowstorms?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I should have to take legal advice.
    Mr. Vane: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is now the policy of his Department to use the hideous galvanised iron posts which are now appearing, instead of wooden ones as hitherto?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Our policy is to try to put as many cables as possible underground.
    Mr. Vane: I did not ask about that.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    A.T.C. Units (Transport)
    Mr. John Grimstonasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will consider making Royal Air Force transport available to officers commanding Air Training Corps units to enable these units to make journeys to certain named displays, such as the Royal Air Force and the Society of British Aircraft Constructors displays and the Royal Tournament.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Crawley): I regret that it is not possible to entertain this proposal which, apart from the question of finance, would place too great a burden on R.A.F. transport facilities. Arrangements are being made to admit cadets, schools and youth organisations free of charge to the dress rehearsal of the R.A.F. Display at Farnborough. The number anticipated is from 60,000 to 75,000, of whom about 10,000 will be A.T.C. cadets.

    Missing Yacht (Search)
    Mr. Ralph Morleyasked the Secretary of State for Air why the only organised search made for the missing yacht "Kit," with four young Southampton yachtsmen on board, was carried out by aeroplanes chartered by certain newspapers; and why the Royal Air Force did not assist in this organised search.
    Mr. Crawley: The Royal Air Force was informed about the missing yacht in a message from the Southampton police on the morning of 13th April, and instructions were immediately given for R.A.F. aircraft from Calshot to make a

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    search of the area in which it was thought the yacht might be. The search was repeated on the following day.
    Mr. Morley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a representative of the Air Ministry stated to the Press at 11.30 a.m. on the material date that no organised search had been undertaken by the Royal Air Force? May I ask why the headquarters of the R.A.F. in Plymouth were not contacted, since they had suitable planes for the purpose, and whether it is not a fact that the only organised search which was undertaken was by a plane privately chartered by the "Southern Daily Echo" and the London "Evening Standard"?
    Mr. Crawley: I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. The R.A.F. actually did more than it was asked to do. It was only asked by the police to keep a look out for this yacht during any flying it was doing. What happened was that training aircraft pilots kept a look out and that a special Sunderland went and searched on two days running.

    Bombing Exercises, Oxfordshire
    Mr. John Hayasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that practice bombing of the bombing range at Charlton-on-Otmoor, Oxfordshire, on 13th April caused alarm in the nearby village; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Crawley: I regret that during a bombing exercise at the Otmoor range on the night of 13th April, three 25-pound practice bombs were irregularly released and burst in a field near the village of Murcott about two miles from the target area. No damage occurred to either persons or property. A full investigation has been carried out, and it has been established that the faulty release was caused by a fault in the electrical wiring circuit of the aircraft. Action is being taken to prevent a recurrence.
    Mr. Hay: Will the Minister consider whether or not it would be practicable to close the Charlton-on-Otmoor bombing range altogether, as this is not the first time that this sort of thing has happened?
    Mr. Crawley: We could not close this range, which is one of the largest in the
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    country. If we were forced to close inland ranges altogether, it would be impossible for bombing practice to continue. We have taken every conceivable precaution to reduce this type of fault to a minimum.
    Lord John Hope: When the hon. Gentleman says "irregularly released" does he mean dropped by mistake?
    Mr. Crawley: If I said "dropped by mistake "it might have implied that the pilot was at fault, whereas this was due to a mechanical defect.

    Flying Boat Depot Ship
    Mr. J. Grimstonasked the Secretary of State for Air what alternative proposals are being considered for the flying boat depot ship "Adastral"; and what the final cost of conversion is likely to be.
    Mr. Crawley: The alternative proposals considered for this ship were to complete it as a flying boat depot ship or to use it for the carriage of Service personnel and freight. It has been decided on financial grounds to adhere to the decision to place the ship in reserve.
    Mr. Grimston: Are we to understand that the £350,000 that has been spent on the ship is entirely wasted?
    Mr. Crawley: No, not entirely wasted. The sum was not as high as that; it was £315,000. All that expenditure will still stand, as the ship will be able to give assistance very much more quickly if an emergency arises.
    Sir H. Williams: Can the Minister say for what purpose the ship is now wanted, because it is of no use for its original purpose?
    Mr. Crawley: It is wanted as a flying boat depot ship.

    Egyptian Airmen (Training)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for Air what has been the cost of training Egyptian airmen by the Royal Air Force in this country; and who bears the cost.
    Mr. Crawley: The cost of training given to Egyptian airmen by the R.A.F. in this country since 1st January, 1949, amounts to £20,024. The cost is met by the Egyptian Government.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Can my hon. Friend say for how much longer this form of training is to be provided?
    Mr. Speaker: The Question asks only for the cost, and not for the length of time.

    Operations, Malaya
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement on the activities of the Royal Air Force in Malaya during the last month; how many bombing raids were carried out; and how many casualties were inflicted on the bandits.
    Mr. Crawley: During April, the R.A.F. in Malaya carried out 638 bomber sorties and made 33 strikes using cannon and machine guns. No information is available as to casualties suffered by the bandits.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Does not the Minister agree that the use of the term "bandits" is rather reminiscent of a comic opera show, and is not applicable to an enemy organised on this scale?
    Mr. Crawley: That is a matter of opinion.

    Bombing, Heligoland
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will stop altogether the bombing of the island of Heligoland in order to enable the 2,000 Frisian people to return to their native island.
    Mr. Crawley: No, Sir.
    Professor Savory: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the continued bombing of this island is contrary to international law, and has created profound indignation throughout Denmark, Germany and the United States? For Heaven's sake, find some other target.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is it not a fact that this continuous bombing is simply stirring up the debris of previous bombings? Is there any point in it now?
    Mr. Crawley: The answer is that it is very difficult to find anywhere to try out high explosive bombs. Heligoland is most suitable.
    Mr. Yates: Will the continuance of this bombing prevent people from returning to their homes?
    Mr. Crawley: Yes, it will, but two things should be recognised. First, the island is a mass of rubble; second, there was a naval base there which afforded a living to the people, but since it has been abolished only a very small proportion of these people would be able to find a living.
    Professor Savory: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that 2,000 Frisians want to return to their native island, where they can do their fishing and provide accommodation for the numerous visitors who used to visit the island?
    Mr. Martin Lindsay: Will the Minister bear in mind that the efficient training of Bomber Command is of much more importance than the convenience of a few Germans?
    Professor Savory: They are Frisians, not Germans.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Airworthiness Certificates
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what arrangements exist between Britain and the United States for the recognition of certificates of airworthiness of aircraft.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Beswick): By an exchange of Notes in September, 1934, the airworthiness authorities of the two countries agreed to recognise each others certificates of airworthiness for import purposes, subject to the right of the importing country to prescribe additional requirements where they deemed this necessary. Mutual recognition of r certificates for purposes of international flight is accorded under the terms of the Chicago Convention, to which both are parties.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the United States' authorities are making it extremely difficult for British manufacturers to sell t their equipment because of their failure t to give recognition to British certificates of airworthiness? Is he further

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    aware that when American aircraft are taken to pieces in this country many things are found wrong with them?
    Mr. Beswick: I am aware that I have answered the Question on the Order Paper. If there is a particular point which the hon. and gallant Gentleman would like to put to me about the way this Convention is being recognised I would be glad to have it.

    Accident, Ringway (Report)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smilesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation when the Report on the fatal accident at Ringway Aerodrome, Manchester, which took place last summer, will be published.
    Mr. Beswick: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement that I propose to make at the end of Questions.
    Later—
    Mr. Beswick: The Report of the court investigation into the accident to British European Airways Dakota G-AHCY, which occurred near Ringway, Manchester, last August, is to be published forthwith and copies are now available in the Vote Office.
    The main conclusions, from which my noble Friend sees no reason to dissent, are that while it is impossible to establish with certainty the reason for the accident, it was probably due to an error in navigation, incorrect approach procedure and failure to check the position of the aircraft accurately before the descent from a safe height. The court is of the opinion that the accident was not contributed to by any malfunctioning of the Standard Beam Approach installation.
    The court has made a number of recommendations, mainly of a technical character, with which I need not trouble the House. It considered that the staff of the ground services acted correctly and could not have taken any action by which the accident could have been avoided. It has, however, expressed the opinion that a Departmental investigation of the organisation of the Ministry's Northern Divisional Headquarters should be undertaken because, prima facie, it appeared to the court that there existed at the Headquarters an undesirable atmosphere
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    of complacency as well as a high degree of decentralisation without adequate supervision from the top.
    My noble Friend accordingly ordered such an investigation, which has now been carried out. As a result, he is satisfied that there was no complacency or undue decentralisation in the organisation but that before the court inquiry there had been a certain lack of supervision which had already been corrected by the time of the Departmental inquiry. The arrangements now in force should ensure adequate supervision in future. I should like again to express the sympathy of my noble Friend and myself to all those who were bereaved by this accident.
    Sir W. Smiles: Will the Parliamentary Secretary make certain that the reports from the pilots who use Ringway in misty weather are checked, and that any complaints or suggestions made by those pilots are carefully considered?
    Mr. Beswick: Yes, Sir. That was gone into by the Departmental investigation. Apparently one reason was that the complaints had been made verbally and not in writing, but in view of the procedure now laid down I am sure they will be carefully considered.
    Mr. Eden: Is it not rather disturbing that in regard to these two recent accidents—the one at Prestwick and now this one—the Minister has set up a judicial inquiry, that those inquiries have both used the same phrase about complacency on the aerodrome concerned, and that then the Ministry have their own investigation and virtually say they do not agree with what that judicial inquiry has said?
    Mr. Beswick: That is not quite true. I would emphasise that the remarks in the Report—which probably the right hon. Gentleman will eventually read——
    Mr. Eden: I have read the hon. Member's answer, which he was courteous enough to send me in advance.
    Mr. Beswick:—do not refer to the conclusions. We accept the conclusions, which make it quite plain that the accident was not caused by any failure of duty on the part of the ground staff.
    Mr. Eden: May I recall the words which the hon. Gentleman read? They struck me as being exactly the same as

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    the words used in connection with the Prestwick disaster, namely:
    "expressed the opinion that a Departmental investigation of the organisation of the Ministry's Northern Divisional Headquarters should be undertaken because, prima facie, it appeared to the court that there existed at the Headquarters an undesirable atmosphere of complacency."
    All I am asking the Minister is, whether it is not rather disturbing that we should get exactly the same words in each of these two Reports and then the Ministry say they do not accept the judicial inquiry?
    Mr. Beswick: It may in a sense be disturbing; and very careful inquiries were made by my noble Friend. What I wanted to make quite clear is that the alleged complacency did not in any way affect the cause of this accident.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: How can the hon. Gentleman be certain that the complacency did not affect the cause of the accident? Will he say why the pilot nearly always gets the blame, even though there is an element of doubt on the ground? Will he give the House an assurance that there were sufficient aids to enable the pilot to make an attempt to land?
    Mr. Beswick: The hon. and gallant Member is quite wrong. If I speak here with bias, it is on the side of the pilot, as the hon. and gallant Member knows. It is not the fact that the pilot always gets the blame.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: I said "nearly always."
    Mr. Beswick: In fact, precisely the reverse was the case in the Prestwick inquiry.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: For the purposes of accuracy in regard to Prestwick, is it not a fact that the report of the judicial inquiry wholly exonerated the pilot but that the Debate in this House and the statements made by the Minister in another place and by the Attorney-General here, by inference blamed the pilot? That was largely the cause of our dissent from the action taken by the Minister. Is not the only difference that in the first case the pilot was not blamed by the court but was blamed by this House and that in this case the court think that the accident may have been
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    due to an error on the part of the pilot, but that in both cases the Ministry were regarded as showing undue complacency?
    Mr. Beswick: With respect, I think it would be a mistake to go into the Prestwick inquiry again. Everyone, quite rightly, does not like, in these matters, to emphasise the blame on persons, especially when they have lost their lives. If hon. Members will read the Report they will see that the court, having gone into the matter very carefully, say that the blame apparently was that of the pilot.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the hon. Gentleman answer my first question: whether or not the pilot had sufficient aids at Ringway Airport to enable him to attempt a landing?
    Mr. Beswick: The pilot had the S.B.A.——
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Was that sufficient?
    Mr. Beswick: The pilot had the S.B.A., which, as the hon. and gallant Member and I well know, is sufficient to bring down an aircraft in bad weather. He had, in addition, another radio aid with which to establish his position.
    Mr. J. Grimston: Will the Parliamentary Secretary say what progress is being made in installing G.C.A. at all aerodromes in this country at which B.E.A. operate?
    Mr. Beswick: The agreed policy of the Department is to substitute the I.L.S. system for the S.B.A., but we are now waiting for the British equipment. It is hoped that at Manchester the new I.L.S. system will be installed by the beginning of 1951.
    Sir H. Williams: Could the Minister tell us what these initials mean? I do not understand them.

    Air Control System (Renfrew—Norholt)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will state the reasons for the delay in introducing a system of civil airways between Renfrew and Northolt in which positive air control will be exercised.
    Mr. Beswick: There should, in fact, be no delay in getting this section of the system into operation.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is nearly a year since agreement was reached between the Departments concerned about this safety measure, and that we were promised its introduction by December? Does he not agree that there has been some hold up, and will he not speed up the application of the agreement?
    Mr. Beswick: It is a fact that an agreement was reached, but after agreement was reached it was necessary to get the equipment and the land on which to install the equipment, and that has taken up the interim period. We never said that this system would be installed before 18 months from the date mentioned.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my hon. Friend aware that in a letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Air I was promised definitely, as was my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), that this system would be in operation by December, 1949?
    Mr. Beswick: If my hon. Friend wants to ask a question about a letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Air he should put down a Question to the right Department.

    Helicopter Services
    Mr. Jannerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether, after the helicopter service between London and Birmingham used for visitors during the period of the British Industries Fair has been successfully tested, he will consider extending this type of service to link up London with Leicester and other important centres of business in the Midlands and the north.
    Mr. Beswick: The helicopter service between the outskirts of London and Castle Bromwich, which is being operated by a private company under an associate agreement with British European Airways Corporation, is experimental and will be operated over a carefully selected route solely in connection with the British Industries Fair. Although an experimental service will be started by British European Airways Corporation in
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    June between Cardiff and Liverpool, the development of the helicopter is not yet sufficiently advanced for it to be considered as a normal means of providing regular transport services between city centres.
    Mr. Janner: Is my hon. Friend aware that Leicester, which is one of the most attractive cities in the Midlands—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—if not the most attractive—has no effective air service at all and that there is no available aerodrome there? Will he do something with regard to the helicopter service to see that Leicester receives immediate and priority attention?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Would the hon. Gentleman extend this feeder service to Prestwick, so as to enable it to play its part?
    Mr. Eden: Before heeding all these blandishments, will the hon. Gentleman make these services available to Malaya, where they are urgently needed?

  ATOMIC WEAPONS (CONTROL)
  Mr. Blackburnasked the Prime Minister what reply he gave to the proposals of the Secretary General of the United Nations made to him on 28th April, 1950, for a new approach to be made on the subject of the control of atomic bombs and other weapons of mass destruction; and what steps His Majesty's Government is taking to have this discussed by the United Nations or otherwise at the first available opportunity.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I had a short confidential talk with Mr. Trygve Lie when he was in London. Formal proposals of the kind described by my hon. Friend were not before me on this occasion.
  Mr. Blackburn: Can the Prime Minister say whether he abides by the policy which he expressed in his election broadcast, that His Majesty's Government are eager and willing to have the issue of the control of weapons of mass destruction discussed at the United Nations at the earliest possible opportunity?
  The Prime Minister: I should have thought my hon. Friend would have realised that we have been endeavouring

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  to get full agreement on the matter at the United Nations for a long time, and that it is not our fault that the matter has not been determined.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Did the Prime Minister give Mr. Trygve Lie any encouragement?
  Mr. S. Silverman: Does my right hon. Friend's reply to the first supplementary question mean that neither this country nor the United States of America have anything further to say on this matter than has already been said at the discussions in the United Nations?
  The Prime Minister: I mean exactly what I said.
  Mr. Eden: I want to be clear about this. Do I understand that Mr. Trygve Lie did not, in fact, make any proposals to the right hon. Gentleman at all?
  The Prime Minister: No definite proposals at the time. It was a confidential talk. We discussed certain proposals, but there was nothing definite about it.
  Mr. Harold Davies: While we welcome the fact that the Prime Minister is maintaining his promise in keeping this discussion to the fore, may I ask my right hon. Friend if he will consider this problem as a priority, and that a little more commonsense and less casuistry in foreign affairs might help the world?
  Mr. Henry Strauss: Was notice given of these snap supplementaries from the other side of the House?

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Bananas
    Mr. Donnerasked the Minister of Food why bananas are not now available to the public in substantial quantities.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Frederick Willey): The main reasons are that we cannot buy from dollar sources and that production in Jamaica, which formerly sent us about two-thirds of our supplies, has not yet recovered from the deterioration of the plantations caused during the war by plant disease, and hurricane.
    Mr. Donner: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is no shortage of
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    bananas in France, and is not the fundamental reason for the shortage in this country Socialist mismanagement of supplies?
    Mr. Willey: I am not aware of either.
    Mr. Peter Smithers: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the decision of his Department last year to buy disease-free Lacatan bananas is likely to result in substantial shipments soon?
    Mr. Willey: We are governed by the factors already referred to, but we are doing what we can to encourage supplies from Jamaica.

    Milk
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Food if he will now abolish milk registration
    Mr. F. Willey: My right hon Friend cannot yet add to the reply which he gave on 5th April to the hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Snadden).
    Sir I. Fraser: In view of the abundant supply of milk, would it not be an economy to get rid of registration, which is now a mere fiction and quite useless?
    Mr. Willey: This is not a straightforward and easy matter, and I have nothing to add to the reply that my right hon. Friend gave

    Points System
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Food if he can yet make a statement on the points system; or whether he will undertake to give a definite decision on this system before the new ration books come into force on 21st May.
    Mr. F. Willey: I cannot at present add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 1st May, but I assure my hon. Friend that the coming into force of new ration books will not affect the decision.

    Registrations
    Mr. George Jegerasked the Minister of Food whether people wishing to change their registrations with retailers may do so with their new ration books.
    Mr. F. Willey: Yes, Sir, if they will apply to the food office in the usual way.

    Cauliflowers
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the shortage of vegetables, he will remove the limitation on the quantity of cauliflowers which may at present be imported.
    Mr. F. Willey: It is unlikely that the import quota will be fully used. Supplies received so far are well below it, but if it threatens to become restrictive we shall certainly review it.
    Mrs. Castle: Will my hon. Friend undertake to watch the position to see that import restrictions do not prevent British housewives from getting much needed vegetables at a time when home producers cannot meet the supply?
    Mr. Willey: I have already indicated that if this threatens to be restrictive we shall review it.

    Groundnut Scheme, Tanganyika
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Food if, in view of the considerable revision which the Overseas Food Corporation is making in the programme for the Kongwa and Urambo centres of the Groundnut Scheme in Tanganyika, he will make a statement on the effects of this change of policy on the welfare of the European and native staff now employed there.
    Mr. F. Willey: The Overseas Food Corporation has been working on its present programme of limited development in Kongwa and Urambo since January, 1949. The policy has not affected in any way the welfare of the European and native staff employed there.
    Mr. Hurd: Is there not considerable shifting of staff of Europeans, Italians and natives going on at the present time? When will the House be informed of these facts?
    Mr. Willey: Welfare is a responsibility of the management, and that is a matter for the day-to-day management of the Corporation.
    Mr. Hurd: And reserved to this House.
    Captain Crookshank: Could the hon. Gentleman say when the Minister of Food is likely to complete the investigation which he is making into the whole of the
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    groundnuts scheme and when he will report again to the House?
    Mr. Willey: No, Sir.
    Captain Crookshank: No idea?

    Tea Imports
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Food what quantities of tea will be imported from India and Ceylon, respectively, during the current year; and how they compare with the shipments last year.
    Mr. F. Willey: We have reached agreement with the Governments of India and Ceylon about the best way of procurement this year but have yet to conclude contracts with individual producers. I cannot, therefore, say yet how much tea we shall get from them in 1950.
    Mr. Russell: Can the hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to give the amounts? Has this not already been delayed long enough?
    Mr. Willey: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question.
    Sir H. Williams: Was there any shortage of tea before the hon. Gentleman's Department interfered with it?
    Mr. Remnant: Has the price been agreed?
    Mr. Willey: Yes, Sir.

    Catering Establishments (Bacon)
    Mr. Lowasked the Minister of Food why he has refused during the ration period 23rd April to 13th August to issue to residential catering establishments permits enabling them to buy bacon during that period up to the total consumed in their establishments in the same period in 1949 but in such weekly amounts as are required to meet holiday demands.
    Mr. F. Willey: My right hon. Friend is looking into the possibility of giving catering establishments greater freedom to vary their purchases with fluctuations of the holiday season, bearing in mind that bacon has to be supplied to wholesalers and retailers on a regular weekly basis.
    Mr. Low: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very old problem and was brought to his Department's notice much

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    more than a month ago? Is it not about time that his right hon. Friend looked at it?
    Mr. Willey: This may be an old problem, but it is also a difficult one, for we are dealing with perishable commodities and we have to take into account the position of the retailer.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Parliamentary Secretary say whether in future the Labour Party will hold its annual conference outside those months so that its members may enjoy——
    Mr. Speaker: That is another question.
    Mr. Vane: Will the hon. Gentleman allow residential catering establishments which are sufficiently enterprising to keep pigs with their own swill, to retain a larger proportion of the bacon for their visitors instead of handing the whole lot over as at present?
    Mr. Low: In view of the fact that the holiday season is coming very soon, will the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to make his decision very quickly?

  WHISKY (PRICE AND DISTRIBUTION)
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Food what steps he has taken to deal with black markets in whisky in Edinburgh and Glasgow; how many recent prosecutions have been undertaken; and to what extent he is cooperating with the Scotch Whisky Manufacturers' Association in this matter.
  Mr. F. Willey: My Department exercises no statutory control over the price and distribution of whisky except that the Scotch Whisky (Auction Sales) Order prohibits such sales other than under licence. There have been no prosecutions under this Order. The Scotch Whisky Association recommends the observance of certain maximum retail prices for whisky. We maintain close co-operation with the Association on matters of mutual interest.
  Mr. Hughes: Does that answer mean that the Ministry have no control at all over the price of Scotch whisky?

  HUNGARY (TRADE NEGOTIATIONS)
  Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for what reasons he recently broke off trade negotiations with the Hungarian Government; and whether he is satisfied that the breaking off of negotiations achieved the desired effect.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Davies): His Majesty's Government suspended trade negotiations with the Hungarian Government to mark their displeasure at the treatment of Mr. Sanders, and I am satisfied that the lesson was not lost.
  Major Beamish: Is the Under-Secretary aware that this action was a complete departure from stated Government policy, and a very sensible departure indeed; and will he say whether it means that His Majesty's Government will now look into the whole question of our trade with Communist countries and bear in mind that there is an important political content in that trade?
  Mr. Davies: No, Sir. I have answered the Question on the Order Paper, and the question which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has now put is not one which can be answered arising out of that.

  HUNGARIAN CLUB, LONDON
  Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Hungarian Club at 33 Pembridge Square acts as the central organisation controlling Hungarian Communist propaganda in this country; and if he will now close it down as a reprisal for the Hungarian Government's action regarding the British Council, and for security reasons.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: As I do not share the hon. and gallant Member's opinion of the Hungarian Club I can see no justification for action being taken to close it down. As I informed the hon. and gallant Member on 8th May, there has been retaliation for the action taken by the Hungarian Government against the British Council.
  Major Beamish: Is the Under-Secretary aware that he is completely

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  wrong in saying that, and that the Hungarian Institute, which he closed, was a non-existent organisation, which is proved by the fact that not a single employee of that organisation went back to Hungary when the Government insisted on its being closed? Will he look at this again and try not to make the Government look more foolish than it really is?
  Mr. Davies: Since the hon and gallant Gentleman put his Question to me on Monday of this week I made inquiries about the activities that the Hungarian Institute was carrying on, and ascertained that it was carrying on activities which have now ceased.
  Major Beamish: In that case, will the Under-Secretary say why not a single employee of the Institute has gone back, although the Government said that the employees should do so?
  Mr. Davies: Because it happened that there was one Hungarian employee and some British employees.
  Sir H. Williams: Is the hon. Gentleman sure he did not mix it up with the Hungaria Restaurant, in Haymarket?

  GERMANY (NATIONAL SONG)
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what was the nature of the recent protest to Dr. Adenauer about the singing of the third verse of the song "Deutschland uber Alles."
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Federal Chancellor has been informed by the Allied High Commission that they are disturbed by the controversy which has arisen over this matter, and that in their view a national song ought to be a source of inspiration to all the democratic elements in the country irrespective of party.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the third verse of "Deutschland uber Alles" is as innocuous as "Lead, Kindly Light" and less belligerent than "Rule Britannia"? Does he not think that this was rather ridiculous and childish?
  Mr. Davies: No, Sir. Because of the past association of this national song in
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  Germany it was considered that the controversy which it aroused was not to be endorsed.
  Mr. Eden: Whatever we may feel about that song, surely the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that the only alternative is the "Red Flag"?
  Mr. James Hudson: As my hon. Friend is interested in the democratic morality of the German national anthem, will he consider the necessity of excluding from our own National Anthem certain objectionable phrases about politicians and knaves?

  WEST AFRICA

    Nigeria (Cotton Crop)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent the cotton crop in Northern Nigeria has been held up through inadequate transport facilities; and what steps have been taken to improve transport facilities both on road and rail.
    The Minister of State for the Colonies (Mr. John Dugdale): Transport of seed cotton to the ginneries would be improved by better roads and the Nigerian Government have a programme of road construction and improvement in hand in this Region. Rail transport for the ginned cotton lint should now be adequate. There has, however, been some fall in railings recently through severe shortage of water for locomotives at the end of the dry season.
    Mr. Sorensen: Can my right hon. Friend say exactly what proportion of the cotton crop it has not been possible to transport through bad facilities, and when those facilities are likely to be restored?
    Mr. Dugdale: I think it will be very soon indeed. The amount of the cotton bears a very small relation to the total amount of goods transported on the railway. I think it will be transported reasonably soon.

    Marketing Boards
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Africans now serve on the Gold Coast and Nigerian Marketing Boards, and the Sierra Leone Produce Marketing Board;

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    to what extent the legislative councils influence the policy of these boards; and if he will consider making these boards more responsible to West African Governments than to the Colonial Office.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: Each of the four Nigerian Marketing Boards has three African members, the Sierra Leone Produce Marketing Board has four and the two Gold Coast Marketing Boards have respectively five and seven. These boards were constituted by local legislation and Legislative Councils have no direct control over them. They are, however, subject in certain directions to the authority of the Governor or the Governor-in-Council. The boards are not responsible to my Department, so that the last part of the Question does not arise.
    Mr. Sorensen: Do I understand from that reply that no influence is exercised by the Colonial Office on the policy of these boards? If so, is not that contrary to what was stated formerly?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. The working of these boards is the responsibility of the Colonial Government, and the Governor is responsible for them. No interference is exercised by the Colonial Office.
    Mr. Sorensen: Do I understand that the commodities with which these boards are dealing can be sent to any part of the world without any approach?
    Mr. Dugdale: That is another question.

  MALTA (EMIGRATION POLICY)
  Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what plans have been made to ensure a steady emigration of 1,000 a month to deal with unemployment in Malta.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: Under the present constitution responsibility for emigration policy rests with the Maltese Government, which established a separate Department of Emigration in 1947 for this purpose. The Minister in charge of that Department told the Maltese Legislature in February last that 8,000 emigrants had left in 1949–50 and that it was hoped that 12,000 would leave in 1950–51.
  Mr. Rankin: Cannot my right hon. Friend do anything to assist the Maltese
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  Government in achieving emigration at this rate?
  Mr. Dugdale: We have not been approached by the Maltese Government to do so. If they wish to approach us, I have no doubt that we will give the matter consideration.
  Mr. Peter Smithers: Could not arrangements be made for some of these people to be received in parts of the Colonial Empire which are suitable for white settlement?
  Mr. Dugdale: That is another question.

  HONG KONG (CONSTITUTION)
  Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is proposed to establish a municipal council in Hong Kong; what will be the composition of the council; what qualifications will be required for voters; and whether the ballot will be secret.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: Last June the Hong Kong Legislative Council passed a resolution recommending that its own constitution should be revised and that thereafter the new Legislative Council should consider the question of changes in the constitution of the urban council. I am afraid that I can say no more than that the whole constitutional position in the Colony, which is very complicated, is being studied in consultation with the Governor.
  Mr. Wyatt: Is it not disgraceful that so much time should have elapsed—since last June—in trying to bring some form of democratic government to Hong Kong, when it is particularly important that we should be able to give a practical working example of democracy in Hong Kong to show the Chinese Communists what we mean by democracy?
  Mr. Dugdale: It is just because Hong Kong is allowed to see to its own affairs in this respect that we leave it to them and do not impose upon them some form of government before they are ready to accept it.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Does not the best contribution that we can make to Hong Kong lie in seeing that it is properly defended?
  Mr. Dugdale: Certainly, Sir.

  GAMBIA (POULTRY SCHEME)
  Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further sums in addition to the £810,000 already made public, have been advanced to the Colonial Development Corporation for the purposes of the Gambia poultry project; and if he will give the main heads of the dollar expenditure incurred.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: The answer to the first part of the Question is "None, Sir." As regards the second part, the question of dollar expenditure is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. Hurd: Would it not have saved the time of the House if the right hon. Gentleman had given this information this afternoon?
  Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. Questions that should properly be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be so addressed, and this Question was not so addressed. This Question was addressed to the wrong Minister.
  Mr. Eden: With respect, are we not to ask any Government Department what their dollar expenditure has been under any head, and must Questions always be put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Is that not an entirely new rule?
  Mr. York: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department controls the Colonial Development Corporation?
  Mr. Dugdale: It exercises a general control over it, but dollar expenditure is controlled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. Eden: Cannot the Minister tell us what his own Department's expenditure is? No doubt it has to be sanctioned by the Chancellor, but the right hon. Gentleman is here to answer for his Department.
  Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. In these matters it is the responsibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to answer these Questions. I should be quite ready to answer them, but I do not wish to attempt to take over any of the many and varied responsibilities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: On previous occasions in regard to this particular scheme, for which the Minister has responsibility on behalf of the Overseas Food Corporation, his predecessor has given this information about the amount of dollars spent, particularly on buying eggs in America. Why should he not do it again?
  Mr. Dugdale: I do not know what the Minister of Food has done in that respect, but as regards our responsibility for the Colonial Development Corporation, it is not our responsibility to detail the amounts and to split up the details of dollar expenditure. I can only give the capital sanctions, which in fact I have given.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: While believing, with my right hon. and hon. Friends, that that is a most absurd statement, could the right hon. Gentleman give us the dollar content of any egg that has arrived from this scheme?
  Mr. Dugdale: I am sorry that the Opposition have chosen to spot-light this important development, and that they wish to direct all the venom of their attack upon this—[An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] They have previously tried to do so over the groundnut scheme—[An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Now they have turned it to this. We hope this will be a great success, and the people of England hope so, too.
  Mr. Eden: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—if he will try to forget the word "venom" for a moment—whether it is now the position that no Questions can be asked of any Government Department in respect of dollar expenditure?
  Mr. Dugdale: I cannot speak for the whole of the Government. I say that this is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would not be proper for me to speak for the Government as a whole.
  Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House—I am only asking for guidance—to tell us if it is now the position that we cannot ask any Government Department about its dollar expenditure, but must always ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer? We will do our best to comply; we would just like to know.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): On the face of it I think my right hon. Friend has a perfectly good case, but if the right hon. Gentleman wants a considered reply to that point, he had better put a Question down to the Prime Minister or to myself. Then we will look into it and give him that considered reply to which he is undoubtedly entitled as one who has a position on the Opposition Front Bench.
  Sir H. Williams: On a point of Order. Yesterday on this point. Sir, I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Question Time about the interpretation of an Order which was to be moved later in the day. He said he knew nothing about it. Later in the evening, in Debate, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power said he could not answer the question because it was a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Is it not right that these responsibilities should be clearly defined, and that one Ministry should not be allowed to get away with it by referring to another Ministry?
  Mr. Speaker: As far as I am concerned what a Minister answers is not a point of Order. That is a matter which the House can deal with themselves; it is not for me.
  Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. Is it not a fact, Sir, that your predecessor, Mr. Speaker Lowther, on one occasion ruled that expletives should not be used either in Questions or answers to Questions? May I call your attention to the fact that if such expletives are used in answers to Questions, Question Time takes the place of Debate, which it should not do?
  Mr. Speaker: I agree with the noble Lord. I think he was out of the House just now when I said I hoped that supplementaries would always be short and snappy, because we have too many speeches.
  Earl Winterton: That was not quite my point, Sir. I am sorry to persist in it. I was not questioning your Ruling, I was only calling your attention to the Ruling of Mr. Speaker Lowther, that expletives should not be used in answers to Questions. If it is the new rule that the Government can use any word or phrase they like about the Opposition in answer
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  to a Question, Question Time in future will be somewhat turbulent.
  Mr. Speaker: What was the word?
  Mr. Eden: The word was "Venom." Mr Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: Now I have the point. I always think it is a great pity at Question Time if we fling things across the Floor from one side or the other. Mr. Speaker Lowther in his book, I remember quite well, said that once you chuck the ball on to the Floor of the House it gets kicked back from the other side and then it is hard for the Speaker or Chairman to get the ball back into proper play. Those are sound words and all these provocative things at Question Time do not add to the value of the answers. All I would say is that I hope both sides will avoid it as much as possible.
  Lord John Hope: Further to that point, may we take it that the Minister was definitely off-side on this occasion?
  Mr. Speaker: I was not acting as referee on this occasion.

BRITISH TRAWLER (DETENTION)
Mr. Ernest Davies: With permission, I will make a statement about the detention of the trawler "Etruria" by the Soviet authorities.
A Note has now been received from the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs in reply to the inquiries which, I informed the House on the 5th May, His Majesty's Ambassador had addressed to to the Soviet authorities. The Soviet Note states that the vessel had been engaged on illegal fishing at a distance of one and a half miles from the Soviet coast and claims that the master of the vessel had admitted this to be the case. He was ordered to pay a fine of 300 roubles, which is slightly less than £30 at the present rate of exchange, and his catch was ordered to be confiscated. The Note states that the trawler will be released immediately after payment of the fine.
The same day as the Note was received, that is, yesterday, His Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow was instructed, with the agreement of the owners of the vessel, to

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pay the fine on their behalf, and I have every reason to hope that the trawler will be released at a very early date.
Mr. Osborne: Was the skipper given all the legal aid that he wanted and required before he made the admission which is alleged?
Mr. Davies: I think that the hon. Member will realise from the statement I have made that the Moscow Embassy was acting on our behalf. There is nothing more to add.
Mr. C. S. Taylor: Can the hon. Gentleman say why there has been so much delay? If it was a question of a fine and the confiscation of the catch, why could not the Russian authorities let us know that long ago?
Mr. Davies: I think that this matter has been settled—and we hope that it is finally settled—with commendable promptitude.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NEWFOUNDLAND (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) BILL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]
  Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  NEWFOUNDLAND (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) BILL [Lords]

    Clause 3.—(POWER TO MAKE FURTHER ADAPTATIONS BY ORDER IN COUNCIL.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    3.47 p.m.
    Mr. Driberg: I hope not to detain the Committee for more than a few minutes in any consideration of a Measure which was described by my noble Friend who moved its Second Reading in another place as
    "non-contentious in character and entirely of a technical nature."
    None the less, there are one or two assurances which I should like to ask of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations before the Committee agrees to Clause 3. This is the kind of Clause which is always regarded—I think by hon. Members on both sides—with some caution. I put it no higher than that. I should like, therefore, to secure one or two assurances from my right hon. Friend.
    I need hardly remind one who has always shown such jealous concern for the Parliamentary proprieties as my right hon. Friend has done, of the substantial sections of Erskine May which relate to this kind of Clause. He will remember, I am sure, that in Chapter 29, on page 808, there is the well-known example of the Destructive Imported Animals Act, 1932. As Erskine May says, the inclusion of such a Clause means that:
    "A principle enacted in a Statute can be extended in some roughly similar direction."
    The Chairman (Major Milner): I am sorry that I did not catch the page reference. Would the hon. Member be good enough to give it to me?
    Mr. Driberg: It is page 808 of the 14th Edition of Erskine May, Major Milner. In the case I am quoting, as my right hon. Friend will remember, the

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    Destructive Imported Animals Act, 1932,
    "aimed at the musk rat, was thus applied to the grey squirrel."
    On the next page of Erskine May there is a passage which seems to me much more relevant to the Clause now under consideration, which, if I mistake not—and here I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to reassure me—is what is known as a "Henry VIII Clause". As Erskine May says—quite rightly, if one may say so without disrespect—
    "Objection has been taken to a form of enabling enactment sometimes called the' Henry VIII Clause', whereby a statute permits the appropriate Minister to modify its provisions so far as may appear to him necessary for the purpose of bringing them into operation. The use of this Clause, usually transitory, was specially examined by the Committee on Ministers' Powers; it is extremely convenient for making minor adjustments to fit a new principle into the fabric of existing legislation, general or local, and to meet cases of hardship to local authorities, but the argument of convenience might obviously be pushed too far."
    It may well be necessary in this Bill—and it would be quite out of Order and inappropriate to argue the merits of the original Act when discussing one Clause in a purely consequential Measure—it may be necessary to include such a Clause as that in this Bill purely for the sake of administrative convenience to ourselves and those who come after us; but I feel that we should ask my right hon. Friend if he will give us some assurance that, so far as possible, this so-called "Henry VIII" procedure will not be resorted to unduly in future legislation.
    It may well be said—and I have no doubt my right hon. Friend will tell us when he replies—that subsection (1) of Clause 3 is, as it were, safeguarded and fenced in by subsection (2), which says that,
    "The draft of any Order in Council made under this section shall be laid before Parliament."
    That is quite true, but I would like my right hon. Friend to make it absolutely clear whether that simply means that such an Order can be prayed against in the ordinary way or whether it means that it would have to be approved by an Affirmative Resolution.
    I think those are the only assurances I shall ask my right hon. Friend to give us, but it is, of course, important to
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    remember, when draftsmen are including this kind of delegated legislation in actual legislation, that, although it may be perfectly safe to do so when we have a Government of the present kind in power—liberal, humane, intelligent, sensible, clear-headed, forward-looking and so on—the position might be very different if a Government of a different colour were in power, a Government more wedded to arbitrary and dictatorial ways. That is why I feel that we are entitled on this occasion, to ask my right hon. Friend for the assurances that I have sought.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Gordon-Walker): I am happy to give my hon. Friend all the assurances he asks. I assure him we will not use this Clause to go into operation against grey squirrels, although I wish we could as I deplore the rapid disappearance of the red squirrel. Any orders under this Clause are of a sort which could be prayed against; and I can also assure my hon. Friend that not even a Conservative Government could really abuse the terms of this Clause to take away our liberties.
    Mr. Driberg: Thank you.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Schedule and Preamble agreed to.
    Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

    HIGH COURT AND COUNTY COURT JUDGES [MONEY]
    Resolution reported:
    "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for increasing the number of puisne judges of the High Court and the number of judges of county courts, it is expedient to authorise—

    (a) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act in the sums which under the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925, or the County Courts Act, 1934, are payable out of that Fund; and

    (b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase so attributable in the sums which, under the said Act of 1925 or the said Act of 1934, are payable out of moneys so provided."

    Resolution agreed to.

  HIGH COURT AND COUNTY COURT JUDGES BDLL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  HIGH COURT AND COUNTY COURT JUDGES BDLL [Lords]

    Clause 1.—(INCREASE OF NUMBER OF PUISNE JUDGES OF THE HIGH COURT.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    3.57 p.m.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I had hoped to be able to put a question to the Attorney-General on this Clause. I am glad he has just reached the right point at the right moment, and I commend his example to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, in view of what happened last night On this very important Bill, I wish to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman if, after further consideration, he can now inform us that the intention with regard to the appointment of judges is not limited as in the Explanatory Memorandum. This Clause gives power to create six High Court judges. The views of all sides of the House on Second Reading were unanimous that two would not be enough. I hope that in the interval between the Second Reading and now the right hon. and learned Gentleman has taken the necessary steps to be in a position to announce to us today that in that respect, the Explanatory Memorandum is incorrect.
    There is also a minor point about which I wish to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Will he explain why the number of six has been selected in the case of the High Court, and five in the case of county court judges? Is it not desired to secure some uniformity in the increase?
    The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): We were, as I said in the Second Reading Debate, very much impressed by the consensus of opinion which manifested itself in the House at that time that there should be an appointment in the near, if not in the immediate, future of at least four additional judges and not only of two. I do not think I ought to commit my noble Friend in terms to the time or exact number of judges he will appoint, but I have conveyed to him the very strong view which was expressed by the House and which I ventured myself to share. I think the Committee may feel little doubt that my noble Friend will act upon the views which were expressed by the House.
    The difference in regard to the number of county court and High Court judges is based on the view taken as to the necessary increase in strength. It was thought that five would provide a sufficient increase in the case of the county court bench, but that six would ultimately be required in the case of High Court judges.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 3.—(SHORT TITLE.)
    Amendment made: In page 1, line 23, leave out subsection (2).—[The Attorney-General.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, with an Amendment; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with an Amendment.

  RAILWAY FREIGHT CHARGES (INCREASE)
  4.1 p.m.
  Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: I beg to move,
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Regulations, dated 1st May, 1950, entitled the Railways (Additional Charges) Regulations 1950 (S.I., 1950, No. 701), a copy of which was laid before this House on 2nd May, be annulled."
  I move the first of the five Motions which stand in my name and the names of my hon. Friends, with a sense of deep responsibility by reason of the effect that the decision which the House takes today will have not only on the future of British Railways but on British industry generally. I am anxious and even hopeful that I may get agreement as to the premises from which I start. I hope also that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends will keep open minds as to the conclusions they will draw from the premises.
  No one will deny the adverse effects of the rise in railway charges. The British Transport Commission itself has admitted that this is a very dangerous moment for these increases to come into force, and that the increases will have widespread repercussions on the prices of a very wide range of products. The increases must, of course, be viewed against the background of our industries which are struggling to preserve the national position and restore us to prosperity. We must, therefore, contemplate these increases as another upward push in the inflationary spiral of rising costs, rising cost of living and, after attempts to delay them, increases in wages, with the risk of a continued run of increases of one kind followed by increases of another, until the position of this country in the world is seriously affected.
  I need give only one example, the increase in the case of industrial coal of 1s. 6d. per ton and in the case of domestic coal 2s. 6d. per ton. Indeed, the Consultative Committee has said that the evidence
  "leaves us unable to do more than to offer you"—
  that is the right hon. Gentleman—
  "our opinion that this increase must be reflected in some advance in the cost of living index."
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  That is part of the report of the Consultative Committee. I suggest that the picture, given first by the Transport Commission in their submissions, and then by the Consultative Committee in considering the submissions, is a very different picture from that presented to us by the right hon. Gentleman a few days ago.
  One has to consider it especially in the light of the benefits it is hoped to get from devaluation and the warning of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and many other Ministers as to the great danger of offsetting these advantages of devaluation by a rise in costs and prices in this way. Therefore, my starting point, and I am not putting this purely from a debating point of view—I hope that I take the whole House with me on this point—is that unless the Government are driven to this course not only by weighty but unanswerable and irresistible reasons, it should not be taken. The course is a dangerous one, and the moment is inopportune.
  I wish to consider one other point which the right hon. Gentleman put to us in his preliminary statement. He stressed that the rise up to now was only one of 55 per cent. The Transport Commission themselves pointed out that, having regard to the facilities that were given before the war as compared with the reduced facilities that are given today, the rise in respect of passenger rates was not 55 per cent. but 93 per cent. That was one of the arguments which the Transport Commission themselves advanced for not increasing the passenger rates but increasing the freight charges. If that is applied to the whole scale of the charges, then the increase, as compared with pre-war, instead of being 55 per cent. becomes 67 per cent., and instead of the proposed increase bringing that up to 81 per cent. it brings it up to 94 per cent., which is a very considerable increase.
  The approach with which we quarrel, and I am anxious to put the points with, as much weight and supporting facts as time will allow, is, if I may use the words of the right hon. Gentleman:
  "I am satisfied, therefore, that there is no means of meeting the financial problem now facing the railways by any rapid and substantial increases in efficiency. The economies to be achieved by integration of transport services must obviously be a gradual and long-term matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 27th April. 1950; Vol. 474, c. 1155.]

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  It is that approach with which we join issue. We say that it is completely defeatist on the question of rapid and substantial improvements in economy and efficiency.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): May I interrupt the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I gather that it is understood, and that it is agreeable to the House, to debate the five Motions together?
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Certainly. I am very grateful to you for your intervention, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I think it would meet the convenience of us all in all parts of the House if we had a general Debate on the question of whether this increase should take place or not. We can leave the consequences of that as expressed by way of a Division, until we come to the end of the Debate.
  Mr. Poole: What do the Opposition intend to do?
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: There is a point with which I should like to deal at once, because I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has it in mind. I am trying to put the real strength of our objection to the Minister, and I do not want to miss any point which time will allow to be put. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has in mind the provision of Section 3 of the Transport Act, that it is the duty of the Commission:
  "to levy such… charges, as to secure that the revenue of the Commission is not less than sufficient for making provision for the meeting of charges "properly chargeable to revenue, taking one year with another."
  I submit that that is no answer to the attitude of the Opposition today. For one thing it hardly lies in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman or the Transport Commission to rely on Section 3, because their proposal is to do nothing about the £25 million of losses which have been accumulated in 1948 and 1949.
  As I understand it, and I make no quarrel with this for this Debate, the view of the British Transport Commission is that the problem should be considered from the aspect of what is a manageable loss—if I may use that term—and what is not. That I understand is the approach; and when one compares the
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  phrase I have just quoted from the Transport Act with the phrases in the Coal Act and the others, which I will not trouble the House by repeating, I suggest one ought to look at this problem today in the business sense. One should ask, as a sensible businessman would ask, "Ought one to carry the 1950 deficit for a further period, or ought one not? Is it getting to a stage where we must do something about it, or can we leave it for a further period?"
  That seems to me to be the problem and again I would assure the hon. Gentleman that I am making no party point in that approach. That is the approach which, as I understand it, the Act suggests, and which everyone considering the matter ought to follow. We say that no action should be taken and no increase introduced until we have had a rapid inquiry by a small body of one or two practical experts in railway running into the possibility of economies, of increased efficiency and increased traffics; and especially the proposals adumbrated before the Consultative Committee itself and also suggested in this House. That is our point, and I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite, whether they agree with that point of view or not, will have no doubt as to what is our attitude on the matter as to the period for which we are saying that no action should be taken.
  The right hon. Gentleman might well make the reply that the objections to an ad hoc inquiry were put forward by the Transport Commission, and I wish to examine what were their objections. They said that a general inquiry into the re-organisation of the railways is bound up with the schemes of re-classification of rates and all the other matters which arise when a new system is brought into operation. I want to make it quite clear that I am not suggesting a general inquiry into re-organisation. What I am suggesting is that certain very clear and specific proposals for the reduction of expenses, of which I shall remind the House, ought to have been considered by this expert working committee.
  The second reason advanced by the Transport Commission against such an inquiry as I have suggested is that the integration of road and rail must be the matter which determines very largely the future economies of Transport Commission business and this cannot be gone into

  401
  by an emergency committee. I say, with the greatest respect, that that is a completely hopeless attitude. The charges scheme is expected to take four or five years before it is completed. Integration must take a considerable period after that. I say that to assume that railway expenditure is sacrosanct for the intervening period is a completely hopeless and defeatist attitude of mind.
  The third objection of the Transport Commission to the proposal which I am advancing today was that the body of inquiry which I am suggesting would take a year to report. That entirely sidesteps the idea I am putting forward, which is of a rapid and expert inquiry by a small body. It also postulates an entire absence of urgency, which is one of the most tragic aspects of the method in which this has been handled. The only other objection which I have been able to find that the Transport Commission is making is that they are not doing too badly if they break nearly even when their increases of charges amount only to about 80 per cent. of pre-war, and their costs are only 120 per cent. Apart from the doubt I would venture to express as to whether that is an accurate picture of the matter, it begs the question, which is whether it is necessary that the costs should be 120 per cent.
  The Minister has rather foreshadowed, as have some of his colleagues, that he may answer by saying that he had an inquiry by the permanent members of the Transport Tribunal sitting as a Consultative Committee. But again we say that neither the findings of the Consultative Committee nor the limitations which they imposed upon themselves before they came to their findings really provide something behind which the Minister can hide. I wish to consider these matters as they are put forward by the Consultative Committee. They say:
  "the estimated economies in 1950"—
  that is the economies estimated by the Transport Commission—
  "appear disappointingly small."
  Well, no one will disagree with that; and I shall say what they are and what they are not in one moment when I come to deal with the figures. However the Committee go on:
  "But, in the circumstances"—
  and I draw the attention of the House to these words—
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  "we can only assume that those responsible for the conduct of the Commission's activities are best able to forecast what economies they are likely to achieve, and we have no justification for rejecting the evidence of the Controller of the Commission."
  I say with deep gravity that the responsibilities of Membership of this House prohibits us from making the same easy assumption; and I say equally that we are driven to examine what are the circumstances of which the Commission talk. The first is that the Comptroller said:
  "The most urgent and exhaustive examinations into the efficiency of all forms of transport are going on the whole time at the hands of the Commission."
  All one can say to that is that the results, reflected in losses out of all proportion to the rises in prices, show that this alleged examination by the Commission has been profoundly unsuccessful. Therefore, we cannot let that stand in the way of examination by the House. Secondly, it is said:
  "In the main major economies can be secured by radical changes in working conditions or as a result of fundamental alterations in the technical organisation of transport, and these cannot be obtained until the system has been integrated as conceived by the Transport Act."
  Again, I say that such limitations are the quintessence of pessimism, and we do not accept them. We believe that improvement of working conditions should bring greater productivity with it, as it has done in so many other industries. We say that to wait four or five years for the implementation of a new charging system, and an unspecified period beyond that for a hypothetical integration, is to ignore the red light of our economy today, which is that Marshall Aid ends in 1952.
  The third point they make is that, having made economies of 2 per cent. on £312 million in 1949, then one cannot expect more than 1 per cent. on £312 million in 1950. That to me is the non sequitur in excelsis. Why, because economies of 2 per cent. are made the year before, they cannot repeat that very modest target, I really fail to see.
  These are the limitations which the committee imposed on itself. It came to its conclusions with that hobble attached to its feet. Again I say—and I must repeat it; I say it with such emphasis as I can—that we dare not allow these

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  limitations to be imposed on us and that the Minister must come out from behind that ersatz protection and face the facts themselves. The position is so serious, the situation not only for transport but for other industries is so critical, that I ask the right hon. Gentleman to examine the suggestions put before him and, even if at first sight he does not agree with them, still to consider whether they are not worthy of that short expert inquiry which I suggest before he takes the step of increasing the charges with the effect on industry which the Transport Commission and the committee have been the first to admit.
  Let me take the question of potential economies. I said that the projected economy of the Commission amounted to under 1 per cent. of £312 million. It is an amount of between £2 and £3 million. The only excuse for the paucity of the amount is that it follows economies of £7 million the year before—2 per cent. of £312 million. That is as a beginning. If we had the figures, they would not be impressive. The committee have said that they are disappointing figures. One tries to find of what they consist and how they are split up. That, I suggest, is really more worrying.
  The Transport Commission's explanation of these economies is:
  "We are, as you know, getting control of the pilferage…"
  That is the problem of stealing from the railway system—
  "We are getting that cost down quite a lot. We are getting greater economy in the burning of coal, which will help.…"
  I ask the House to note these words, because I am asking for an inquiry, for exact examination, and these are the words in which the threefold economy is put forward:
  "… and there are also, of course, the questions of the general form of organisation which will always produce a certain degree of economy in staff."
  At a time when these burdens are to be imposed on industry, surely that is the most vague and unsatisfactory account of proposed economies that has ever been given in a serious document. Then, one would like to know the breakdown of the figure of between £2 million and £3 million among these suggested economies. This is how the breakdown is given by the Commission:
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  "Well, shall we say a few hundred thousand for the claims…"
  That is the claims for pilferage—
  "… and rather more on coal consumption, the balance to be raised on staff and generakl purposes."
  That is the position. The Commission say, "We can only suggest between £2 million and £3 million—or 1 per cent.—of economies. We cannot break down that figure between pilferage, coal consumption and a generality." The right hon. Gentleman has to ask for increased charges without any definite information about how the economies are to be made. That is the position and I ask hon. Gentlemen to consider it seriously. It is not a position which the House of Commons ought to accept.
  Therefore, let me say what I suggest requires further inquiry. First, we must have further inquiry into the numbers of the staff. I have made it clear, and I want to make it clear again, that my view of the result of improved conditions, of the improved industrial psychology of shorter hours, holidays with pay and the like, is that it ought to produce greater productivity in the shorter time worked. That is the teaching of every book on industrial psychology that I have read. There ought also to be, for that invigorated force, a deployment which will use it to the best advantage.
  I repeat the broad point which we must face and to which we must know the answer. In 1937, 298 million tons were moved by 650,000 men, and in 1948 276 million tons were moved by 550,000 men. That is the broad question which we must face. The next point is that the Commission said that they would make a reduction of 26,000 men in three months from November, 1948. In fact, it took 12 months. It has been strongly argued—I will not dogmatise on it because it is a matter on which more expert knowledge than mine would be required—that that decrease was nothing more than would come from normal wastage.
  That is the first point, and, obviously, it requires inquiry, and from this point of view. The generally accepted figure of productivity, put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget Statement and on many other occasions, is either 4 or 5 per cent. increase per annum at present. I know there are great

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  arguments concerning the accuracy of the figure, and I am not going into that today. I am merely saying that here is a figure which has been put forward and repeated many times.
  In addition, there are three further points which my hon. and learned Friends and I put forward during the Debate in March. The first was that, to put it quite bluntly, to increase average receipts per loaded passenger train mile means putting more people into fewer trains; in other words, it means reconsidering the holiday programme of last year. As I see it—and I would like to hear in due time whether the right hon. Gentleman disagrees with this—the growth of the deficit in 1949, compared with the deficit in 1948, was a growth of £15 million. From £4.7 million to £20.7 million is a little more than that, but we will take the figure as £15 million.
  That was due to the substantial fall in the profitability of passenger train working, because, in 1948, the average receipts per loaded coaching train mile was 13s. 9d., and in 1949—I have not had the detailed figures—as far as one can judge, it will turn out at less than 12s. 4½d., a decrease of about 10 per cent. As the annual loaded coaching train mileage is well over 200 million, unless my arithmetic is falling down on me, that in itself gives £15 million, or 200 million times Is. 6d.
  There is the fact, and I submit that the Minister cannot say that that is due to factors outside the control of the Commission. It was due to a deliberate policy pursued, I am sure in all good faith, and I am not making any suggestions of that kind, but, nevertheless, disastrous from a financial point of view, because the public did not respond to the extent anticipated. Therefore, we said in March, when I drew attention to these figures, and we say again today, that the policy should now be primarily directed towards the re-establishment of the profitability of the passenger side of the railway business, rather than imposing an additional burden on industry.
  I will listen to any answer from the Minister on that point, but we put it forward in March, and I certainly have not heard any answer yet. If it means pruning, well, it means pruning. It is a choice. When one is hard up, one has to make a choice between what one wants and
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  what one can afford, and this is a choice between decreasing passenger trains or putting this burden on industry which not merely myself but the Commission and the Consultative Committee have both said is a serious matter.
  The second point which we suggested is that the Minister ought to increase the commercial knowledge of the Commission by appointing someone with similar qualifications to take the place of the late Lord Ashfield. Nothing has been done, and no step has been taken to fill that place. I cannot think that the right hon. Gentleman has considered or has been advised that he is safe from the operations of mandamus, but I do consider that a failure to do that, when we are dealing with this critical situation, just shows again the policy which appears in every field—the policy that can be summarised as "For ever amble."
  The third point we put forward was that the railways should be decentralised. The House will bear with me or will sigh with relief when I say that I am not going into that in detail, because hon. Members will remember that I have done it on at least two occasions and I do not want to repeat what they have heard before. I do want to say, however, and I am sure hon. Gentlemen opposite will not make any false point about it, that I am not failing to repeat it today because my belief is shaken in the matter, but only because I wish to spare the endurance of those who have listened to me so often on that same point.
  The final point with regard to economies is this short one, and I am very anxious to hear what hon. Gentlemen opposite have to say about it. The general excuse is increased costs, but, if we compare the increases in losses with the increase in costs, we find that the figure of losses was £5 million for 1948, £21 million for 1949 and £31 million for 1950. There has not been any corresponding increases in prices from 1948 to 1950 to cause such an increase in losses.
  Mr. Poole: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will admit, for the sake of accuracy in the record, that each of the figures he has quoted is an accumulated figure, covering the loss from the previous year; that is to say, the £21 million includes the £4.7 million?
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: With great respect, the hon. Gentleman is completely wrong.
  The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes)The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes) indicated assent——
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the tables in the Report—and the Minister agrees with me—he will find that the estimated loss for 1950 is £31 million. The tables show the estimated losses for each year, such as £20.7 million for 1949. The hon. Gentleman took part in the Debate when we discussed the loss of £4.7 million in 1948. I do not want to score off the hon. Gentleman, who applies great industry to this problem, but he will find, when he goes into the documents, that I am right, and that he has for once, and it is a very rare occasion in this House, fallen into error in the matter.
  I now want to deal very shortly with the other side of the shield. I have dealt with economies, with what I suggest should be done to implement them and also with what we think are matters for inquiry. I now want to consider what are the suggested prospects with regard to receipts and why they are so gloomy, because hon. Gentlemen opposite are always driving home and making the most of three trends at the present time. One is production, which they say has increased by 34 per cent., the second is the number of people in work, and the third is productivity, which I have already mentioned and which they say is increasing at an annual figure of 4 or 5 per cent.
  The puzzle in this matter is this. If all these trends are rising, why is it that less freight should be carried and fewer passengers should travel? That is the problem. If hon. Members at once say, "Of course, the answer is 'C' licences," I do not think that will do. In any case, right hon. and hon. Members opposite have taken fiscal steps, by a duty on petrol and a tax on lorries, to make it more difficult and more expensive to operate "C" licences, and these matters have not been taken into account.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman permit me to try to assist him in this matter, if I may be so
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  immodest? He has conceded that considerable economies were made which resulted in a saving of some £7 million and some 27,000 men, but is it not obvious in those circumstances that we cannot go on chopping off 27,000 men every year? Again, if the trend is, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman says, towards an expanding traffic, the Commission would want a staff at least as great to handle the traffic. If the passenger traffic is contracting, there is another trend, and, if goods are going on to the road, there is yet another trend.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I am always anxious to deal with any point which the hon. Member raises. I accepted the 7 per cent. economy in 1949, but I expressly did not accept the point that because one makes a 2 per cent. economy in one year, one ought to be content with a 1 per cent. economy in the next. I know the hon. Member's interest in these matters, but he has still to explain the overall figures which I gave, namely, that now we have 550,000 people moving 276 million tons, whereas before the war we had 650,000 people moving 298 million tons. I will tell the hon. Gentleman at once that I do not accept that we can say that, because it happens to be 12½ per cent., it takes 12½ per cent. in order to provide for holidays with pay and shorter hours, because I say that those things ought to show themselves in increased efficiency and a better outlook among the men. With regard to the second point on trends, the hon. Gentleman must face the dilemma of why it is, if these trends are correct—and I am only quoting the trends which are always emphasised by the party of the hon. Gentleman himself—that the Transport Commission say we must have fewer passengers and less goods?
  There is an increase in "C" licences, and the Government have taken steps against that. What is going to be the effect of those steps? Again, let us look at the proposals. The suggestion has been made that the decrease has been over-estimated, in passengers, by £2,500,000, in mineral traffic by £1 million, and in classes 7 to 21—general merchandise—by £1 million. These are not very much but, of course, they would change the whole picture, because, if we could get economies amounting to £5 million and an increase amounting to £4,500,000, the picture would change from

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  a £30 million deficit to a £20 million deficit, and the change of trend would begin, because these things ought to improve.
  In addition to that, we had a Debate last week on road haulage, and it certainly did not appear as if the Road Haulage Executive were being backward in acquiring lorries and businesses. In fact, the figures, which I think appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT, show that the number of lorries owned by the Road Haulage Executive has gone up in the past few months from 19,000 to about 40,000, yet nothing is allowed for in increase of receipts from that part of the Commission's activities.
  That is the position, and whatever else hon. Gentlemen may criticise in my speech—and I am sure and expect that they will criticise much—I have, at any rate, dealt with specific suggestions for increased economy and efficiency. I have also dealt with methods by which I believe it would be reasonable, if we had the attitude of looking towards increased traffic and increased receipts, to expect that these things could be obtained.
  The other point about which I think the House requires to hear from the Minister is why it is a flat rate increase, that is to say, why no differential has been applied. We are told that, if we are extremely lucky, we shall get a charges scheme at the end of 1951, but there is very little hope of getting it before 1952. We shall then be are to consider it. That, again, is quite a hopeless approach. We ought to consider now what changes in classification and charging are going to attract traffic to the railways. What we want is a system of rates which will encourage profitable and discourage unprofitable traffics. I believe that things which have a low loading factor should be discouraged by higher rates, and that profitable traffic with a high loading factor should be allowed to remain at the present level.
  The House knows that I sympathise with the road hauliers on the way in which they are being treated at the moment, but I do not want them to be mollycoddled by handicaps being placed on the railways with regard to their rating system. We should go into it at once and try to find a classification. Everyone knows that the 1921 classification is out of date. We have all admitted that.
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  Why not get on to it at once and give them a chance in a way which would bring about competition of a reasonable sort? What one worries about regarding the indefinite nature of the information placed before the Consultative Committee is whether the Commission are really certain which are their remunerative traffics and which are not. That point must be looked at.
  I have spoken for longer than I intended and I am most grateful to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and to the House, for the very patient and courteous hearing accorded to me. But there is one point I wish to urge again. We are all trying, in our different ways, to look objectively at the economic situation of our country and to decide what is the best method of dealing with it. Here we have to consider a most important aspect of it. What we cannot afford to do in this or any other field is to make a leisurely slither into unexampled difficulties. We ought to know exactly why a course has been taken and the facts on which a decision is made.
  I ask the House not to allow these increases to operate until it has taken the reasonable step of instituting a small, rapid, practical inquiry by experts so that we may know that the full facts are before us and that every possibility of economy and increased efficiency has been explored. When we had the report, we would consider it, and what line it pointed out to us, completely free of preconception. But until we have that information, until that is done, I am not prepared to take the responsibility of doing the admitted harm which must result to the industries of our country.
  4.50 p.m.
  Mr. Poole: It is always a very great pleasure to follow the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe), who speaks on these transport topics always with a very good brief and a good deal of authority. My only regret is that we are never able to get him down to detail on these matters. We have had today again a lot of very general terms that I shall deal with in a moment; but we are always left guessing at the end of the Debate about specific proposals that he or his party would be prepared to put into operation.

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  Therefore, if I had to select a text for my remarks today, I should find it in "Love's Labour's Lost":
  "Now step I forth to whip hypocrisy".
  I say that without any disrespect to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. If I did not see some of the faces of those sitting around him and behind him, perhaps I should have not made that my text. He has taken us into a remarkable position today. He said there will be widespread repercussions of this proposal which will have an effect upon a very wide range of products. Before I sit down I shall show the extent of that effect upon a small range of products. He spoke of another upward push in the inflationary spiral. He then said that
  "there is a responsibility upon us as Members of this House which prevents us from accepting the findings of the Tribunal."
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I said which prevents us from making the same easy assumption as the Tribunal had made before it came to its decision.
  Mr. Poole: Not having had the benefit of the legal training of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I, as a layman, fail to see any distinction. If one does not accept the conclusions at which the Tribunal arrives, I should have thought that was dissenting from those conclusions. There may be some difference, but I confess I cannot see it.
  I am surprised that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should dissent from an impartial Tribunal presided over by a distinguished member of his own profession and having amongst its three members a gentleman who, as Secretary of the Road and Rail Conference and Rates Adviser to the railway companies for many years, has spent a lifetime on questions of road and rail haulage. It is a remarkable statement by the right hon. and learned Gentleman to suggest that we here, having read the evidence but not having heard it, and therefore not having been in a position to cross-examine witnesses and extract the information we require, are in a better position to arrive at a decision than those gentlemen were.
  What do I mean when I say that he never came down to specific proposals? Apart from the old proposal on decentralisation, which we have never had in detail from the party opposite but
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  which is now in existence in the railway transport industry, the gist of his suggestions was an improvement of working conditions. He tried to establish some analogy with a man working on a lathe or in some industrial process where, by increasing his efficiency, he was able to give increased output. There is no analogy there. The limiting factor in earnings here is the availability of raw material. How could anyone increase production if there were a shortage of raw material?
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Why not?
  Mr. Poole: The hon. Gentleman may think he is able to make bricks without straw, but the children of Israel found it very difficult under Pharaoh. I do not suppose the hon. Gentleman would be more successful.
  When the traffic is not coming forward to the railway companies, what does the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby mean by improvement in working conditions? Do the party opposite mean an improvement for the men, or do they mean improved technological efficiency? We should like to know. Quite frankly, their suggestion does not mean anything to me. Their suggestion apparently is that now we should have a committee which will go into all the operations of British transport, carry out a survey and, in quick time, produce some magnificent remedy which will improve the present position. That is not borne out by the report of the Tribunal.
  If I may refer the House to the bottom of page 16 in the findings of the Tribunal, they will find that the people who considered the problem said:
  "We have therefore considered whether we should advise that the increase should be postponed for a time."
  That is the proposal, broadly speaking. They go on:
  "We are satisfied it cannot be postponed until the Charges Schemes are brought into force, and, as we see no reasonable hope that conditions may be so changed within, say, a year, that the increase would not then have the effect on industry which is so greatly feared at the present time, and having regard to the detriment of such delay on the finances of the Commission, we do not advise postponement."
  The Tribunal said that this problem is so real and urgent that it brooks no delay

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  whatever. How long does anyone in this House think any committee would take to go into the operations of the British Transport Commission and to present a report which would only have the value of the report we have had as a result of these sittings of nine, 10 or 11 days by very responsible and experienced people?
  I cannot see that we can attach very much importance to that suggestion by the Opposition or that it has really much value. I am sorry to inflict upon the House today a number of quotations, but I have tried to find something which fitted the situation. On reading Charles Kingsley, I could not but feel how apt were his words:
  "The world goes up and the world goes down
  And the sunshine follows the rain
  And yesterday's sneer and yesterday's frown
  Can never come over again."
  Kingsley obviously did not know the Tory Party or their attitude to transport. What we have had in the very nice, suave speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman is the sneer at nationalised transport we have had on every road transport Debate up to now. It is an attempt to smear nationalised industry, a part of the campaign which has been pursued ever since undertakings were placed under public ownership.
  What a change it is to have this Debate in the House today. When I first entered the House it was full of railway directors. They sat on these benches in the years from 1934 to 1938. What was the theme song of every Debate we had on transport? There were some 20, 30 and 40 of them then. There was talk of the disastrous position in which the railways found themselves; there were appeals for a square deal, appeals for justice for the railway operator, and for the Government, in the name of goodness, to do something about it. They did nothing about it except appoint commissions whose findings they never implemented.
  I have here the Report of the Transport Advisory Commission which sat under Sir Arthur Griffith Boscawen and which reported on 4th April, 1939. I would ask the House to pay careful attention to the railways position in 1939. Paragraph 3 says:
  "The financial position of the railways which has for some time past been very unsatisfactory, has recently deteriorated to such
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  an extent as to give rise to acute concern for the future stability of the companies. The loss of merchandise traffic by the railways has been going on for years and the cumulative effect is now serious."
  One would suppose from what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said today that this was something that had happened since nationalisation. Yet a report of a commission established by his own party in 1939, states that over a period of years there has been a steadily deteriorating position. The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows as well as I do, and as well as any honest man in this House knows, that this position was rapidly coming to a climax, and even his Government would have had to do something if Hitler had not involved us in war in 1939.
  In 1939 the railways were asking for—and here I quote from the same Report—
  "… such freedom of action as will, in their opinion, enable them to compete for traffic with road and other transport services on a fair and equitable basis."
  They were asking for that in 1939, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggested that we should now have a committee to find out what is wrong with ILJ railways. The position would be ludicrous if it were not so serious. We must agree that this problem ought to have been tackled very long ago.
  I cannot help feeling that my text was quite right when I referred to the hypocrisy of the present approach to the railways position. It seems to me that the words of Pope were very true:
  "Manners with fortunes, humours turn with climes.
  Tenets with books, and principles with times."
  Principles change with time, and times have changed. The railways have gone into public ownership, and the principles which governed Debates in this House when the railways were in private ownership have also changed. What are the obligations laid upon the Transport Commission? The Transport Commission is compelled to make the undertaking pay, taking one year with another, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, to amortise the capital in the way which is provided in the Act, and also to build up a reserve. The Commission is compelled by Act of Parliament to do those three things. This

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  House, therefore, must give it the tools with Which to do that, or else it is making a mockery of the whole nationalisation proposal.
  The evidence of the Tribunal in paragraph 9 on page 6 reports the position of the railway companies. It says:
  "That the only practicable means of obtaining the additional revenue required is by an equal percentage addition to freight charges and that unless steps are now taken to obtain that revenue the accumulated deficit at the end of 1950 is likely to be between £50 and £60 million."
  It was with that figure in mind that I suggested that the deficit was an accumulated deficit, because it was estimated that there were £4½ million in the first year, £20 million in the second year and an anticipated £30 million in the third year, making an accumulated deficit of between £50 million and £60 million. That is the figure I had in mind which I challenged the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  They go on to say that if there is any delay in conceding this advance in freight charges—and I want to emphasise freight charges, because the right hon. and learned Gentleman devoted a lot of his speech to passenger traffic which does not enter into the scheme of things at all—unless that concession is made now, it will have a most disturbing effect upon the whole operation of the scheme. So we have a Transport Commission on whom is laid the responsibility by Act of Parliament to do these things. I ask the Opposition, how can these things be done otherwise than by increasing the charges?
  It is no use indulging in a lot of verbiage in this House and telling us that it ought to be possible to decentralise and, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, that there are economies to be made somewhere—I do not know where. Is he suggesting that the deficit for this year of £30 million can be found by any economies? If he is, he ought to be honest enough—and his hon. Friends ought to be honest enough—to tell us where these economies can be made. Is he suggesting, for instance, that by a lowering of wages in the industry some of this saving could be made?
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman went on to suggest that we could not afford to go on in a position in which we
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  are not balancing our accounts. He said that we ought to run fewer passenger trains in order to improve the passenger loading, although last week I heard from the opposite benches an urgent request to have a better passenger train service. That, of course, is nothing unusual; it is not unusual to hear dissimilar voices speaking from the opposite benches. Do the Opposition really want the railways to succeed? Do they want the nationalised undertakings to succeed or do they really desire failure so that they can condemn this party for the failure of one of its prime undertakings, the nationalisation of transport? I solemnly warn them that if they are playing about with the idea of the failure of the railways and hoping for some cheap political kudos they are playing about with the future security of this country. I think they ought to realise that.
  The part which the railway system in this country played in the winning of the last war was not inconsiderable, and the heavy capital expenditure which the nationalised transport system must make if the railways are to play their part in any future national emergency, is very considerable. I am mindful of the position of the railway industry, a position of extreme danger, which arose following Dunkirk when we should have been in a completely impossible position to move our troops and arms into Sussex and Kent if there had been an invasion because of the severe limitations of our railway system. Some hon. Members may have heard me make this point before. I want to make it again in order to show how urgent it is that the Commission should have sufficient capital resources to do the things that are necessary.
  The whole of our link between the north and the south of the Thames depends on a little stretch of line, the old West London Railway. One well directed bomb a night on that railway line, could have jeopardised the whole security of the south of England at any time during the war. We did wake up one morning and find that there was no railway system at all from the South Coast to London and that every junction had been put out of commission. That was serious, but if one considers that there was no means of crossing London by rail other than the old West

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  London line, which conveyed enormous quantities of men and materials during the war, and that that line could have been destroyed by one bomb a night, it will be seen that we could have been kept permanently without a rail link to the South other than the link which goes round Reading and Basingstoke. There are many capital works which should now be taken on by the Commission merely from the point of view of national security. Yet the Opposition wish to deny us a 16⅔ per cent. increase in freight charges so that the accounts can be balanced.
  This is an extremely serious matter. How can the railways make a profit and pay the dividends which Parliament has laid down that they shall pay, when, compared with the pre-war position, the increase in their rates has been 55 per cent. while the increase in their costs for materials and labour has been in the region of 120 per cent. The average increase has been 120 per cent. Is there any business undertaking in the country which could show a profit on that basis? Is there any business which could make a profit when it was selling its commodities at 55 per cent. above the pre-war price and was involving itself in labour and raw material costs at a figure of 120 per cent. above the pre-war figure?
  The figures for the increased cost of articles used by the railways have been given in this House before. They are: coal 180 per cent. over pre-war; iron and steel 105 per cent.; non-ferrous metals 136 per cent.; and timber, which is a commodity used more than any other by the railway companies in the maintenance of their permanent way, 291 per cent. I ask hon. Members opposite what remedy they suggest for this, if they are anxious that there should be a remedy.
  In 1949 the railways handled 4 per cent. more traffic than in pre-war years. Dealing with this question of improved efficiency, I should like the right hon. and learned Gentleman to take this into account: in handling 4 per cent. more traffic than in pre-war days, and bearing in mind the reduction in hours and the increased holidays now granted, the railways last year handled more work with fewer man-hours. There was, therefore, a considerable improvement in the efficiency of the undertaking.
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  I want to pass now, as quickly as I can, through a brief statistical survey and I would ask the House to bear with me while I give a few figures. I am dealing with freight traffic all the time because that is the only traffic affected by the regulations. In 1948 the railways received 13s. 2d. for every ton of goods they carried—those were the average receipts. Under the suggested increase which we are debating today, that figure would go up to 15s. 4d. a ton—to be exact, 15s. 4⅓d. I wonder whether this House has any idea of what the taxpayers paid the railways for carrying military traffic during the war? I wonder whether the House has any conception of the figure involved?
  Up to the beginning of the war, as I have shown by the report of the Transport Advisory Committee, the railways were in a serious state and, with the outbreak of war, the nation had to take some action to make them solvent in order that they might play their part in the war. It paid 36s. 2d. a ton for every ton of stores carried. In the case of some traffic. Ministry of Supply traffic, the figure was even higher. That figure is very much more than double the figure which the British Transport Commission will receive when the 16⅔ per cent. increase is granted, and I believe that the figures I have just given show the absolute necessity for this increase. They show, too, the Opposition case in all its hollow nakedness.
  During the war I heard no complaint from hon. Members opposite that we were paying the railway companies too much in paying 36s. 2d. a ton. The taxpayer carried that burden. I never heard it said that that was giving a push up in the inflationery spiral; in fact, I heard no query about it at all. With lower costs of material, with unlimited traffic offered, with no competition to fight, and with less maintenance work to do, it was deemed that 36s. 2d. a ton was the figure necessary to make the railway companies solvent during the war, and that was deemed by a Tory-dominated coalition to be the right figure; yet today, with heavy arrears of maintenance, with obsolete engines and stock, with high costs of plant and materials and with intensified road competition, the Tory Party say that 15s. 4d. a ton is too much for the nationalised undertaking. I invite any

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  hon. Member opposite to controvert those figures and to show where is the sanity in their case.
  I hesitate to inflict still another quotation on the House but at this point I am brought to it, and it is from Sir Charles Sedley's song to Celia:
  "Not, Celia, that I juster am
  Or better than the rest,
  For I would change each hour like them
  Were not my heart at rest."
  Of course, the hearts of the Opposition are at rest. Spurned by their old love, the railways, the fierceness of their passion is now for their new love, the roads, and I believe the fierceness of their passion for road transport has destroyed their reason. The swain went on:
  "Why then should I seek further store,
  And still make love anew,
  When change itself can give no more
  'Tis easy to be true."
  So, tonight, the Opposition are praying for the safe keeping of their new love, the road transport undertakings, and for the complete and utter destruction of their old paramour, the railways. They loved the railways in 1938 when they owned them and when their friends were directors, but now they are praying that the railways might speedily die, in order that their new love might be all the more glamorous.
  I turn to a further analysis of railway receipts, this time on a ton-mile basis, and I think these figures are of extreme importance. Because of the need to save time I will confine myself to merchandise traffic—that is, traffic in classes 7 to 21. The average receipts per ton-mile in 1936 were 1.995 pence per ton-mile. In 1938 they had risen to 2.022 pence and in 1948 the figure was 2.94 pence. The increase in 1948, over 1938, was an increase of 49 per cent.
  These figures mean that m 1948 a ton of merchandise, at 2.94 pence per ton-mile, was carried for 100 miles for 294 pence. The 16⅔ per cent. increase means an increase of 49d. a ton per 100 miles. I am taking 100 miles as an easy figure and as a fairly average distance for a haul. It means an increase of.022 pence per pound over every 100 miles the pound of commodities is carried. That is l/50th of a penny per pound on the costs. That is the extent of "the upward push in the inflationary spiral" about which
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  we heard from the right hon. and learned Gentleman. That is the extent of the sacrifice and of the burden we are asking the nation to bear in order to make the railways solvent.
  In conclusion, if I may reduce it to bread and butter terms, I will talk of a few commodities which I wrote down at random and I will show the impact these increases will have on transit between, say, London and Birmingham. I choose London because a good deal of traffic originates here and, at the other end, I choose Birmingham because I represent part of Birmingham in this House. I will select potatoes, sugar, butter and bacon, which are things in every day use by ordinary people. At the current rates for conveyance of this traffic between London and Birmingham, or vice versa, the charge for potatoes is 28s. 7d. a ton, for sugar 40s. 8d. a ton, for butter 59s. 8d. a ton and for bacon 51s. l0d. a ton, including collection and delivery. If they do nothing else, these figures show up how ridiculous is the present classification of railway traffic, for nobody can tell me why it should cost 59s. 8d. to carry a ton of butter and only 51s. l0d. to carry a ton of bacon. Those are anomalies which we hope will be corrected in the new charges schemes, but at any rate, that is the present position.
  The 16⅔ per cent. increase will mean that the transport costs for potatoes will be increased by 4s. 9d. a ton or by 1/40th of a penny a pound; for sugar the increase will be 6s. 9d. a ton or 1/28th of a penny a pound; for butter, 9s. lid. a ton or 1/18th of a penny a pound; and for bacon 8s. 8d. a ton or 1/21st of a penny a pound—all for conveyance between London and Birmingham. There, in all its naked horror, is the ghastliness of the proposals that are being resisted by the Opposition today. I ask the Opposition whether they now dare to divide the House on this issue.
  Mr. Nigel Davies: Yes.
  Mr. Poole: I ask because the issue here is the issue between solvency and national security or a fiftieth of a penny, and I wonder whether, for the sake of that, they are prepared to place the security of the nation in jeopardy If they do not know where their duty lies, the country will be able to tell them at the election

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  I conclude with a quotation from Archbishop Laud of Canterbury who said:
  "Some hypocrites and small-mortified men who have held down their heads, were like the little images they place in the very bowing of the vaults of a church, who look as though they hold up the church; but they are merely puppets."
  The Opposition seek to look as though they are upholders of the country. To me they are but puppets.
  5.21 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Notwithstanding the very moderate speech with which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) opened this Debate it seems to me that the hon. Member for Perry Barr (Mr. Poole) has completely misunderstood the points which we are endeavouring to make. We are certainly not pursuing any vendetta against the nationalised industries; nor are we attempting to seek to prevent the railways from paying. Were we doing so I for one would have nothing to do with this Debate, because, as hon. Members know, I claim to be a railway man myself. I know also that some hon. Members do not like that claim, because I was never in an operating department, but it is a fact that I was a railway servant for 20 years, and that during the war I was classified, not as a solicitor, but as a railway executive.
  If, therefore, we were pursuing any such course as the hon. Member suggests, I, in supporting it, should not only be doing something to the detriment of the country but I should be letting down my friends and former colleagues in the railway service. On the contrary, the reason why we are praying against these Regulations and Orders is that we believe that they are the wrong approach to the problem which faces the country in the matter of rail transport. We think that, far from improving the position, they may very well make it worse.
  In considering the Motion or, indeed, any railway matter, I would urge hon. Members to make up their minds as to what they believe to be the future of rail traction. It seems to me that too many Members—on both sides of the House, but more particularly on the other side of the House—are taking much too despondent a view. Many of them take a point of view which can be described
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  only in the words which the law students' textbooks use in another connection, that of "settled hopeless expectation of impending death." They seem to regard the railways as obsolete. They seem to assume that in no circumstances could they ever be made to pay again, and that somebody has to be found to pay the charges. If they really believe that, it is a waste of time for them to support these Regulations and Orders or, indeed, any future railway legislation. They had better make up their minds to close the railways now and sack the staff now, if they really believe that to be true. I should like to make a most vigorous protest against any such point of view, which I think is quite unreasonable, and contrary to the facts.
  There are two points about rail traction which we should consider in discussing whether these Regulations and Orders are necessary. The first is this: if we have a given weight of material and place it in a wheeled vehicle and wish to transport it from point A to point B we can do so with much less effort if we place it in a vehicle on rails than if we place it in one on the roads, and with vastly less effort than if we have to hoist it into the air and hurtle it through space. The second point to remember is that time is not always of the essence of the contract. Nowadays, we are all inclined to be speed-minded and to think in terms of jet propulsion, but, as a matter of fact, speed is of no value unless it is used for some purpose. I can best illustrate that point with a story—the story of an American who was showing an Englishman a new bridge in New York and explaining to him that that bridge would mean that the traffic would save 10 minutes; whereupon the Englishman asked, "And what will you do with the 10 minutes?"
  Mr. Follick: No, it was a Japanese who asked that.
  Mr. Wilson: The point that should be remembered is that regularity of deliveries is much more important than speed to many people and businesses. That is particularly so in the case of many small businesses. What the small retailer wants is to be able to telephone his wholesaler, ask him for deliveries within 24 hours, and know that he will get those deliveries at a particular place

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  at a particular time, and that he need not bother any more about it. For that class of traffic the railways are still and always will be useful.
  There are two principal disadvantages about the railways which have also to be considered—and overcome. The first is that traffic on a railway moves only between fixed points, and that the destination point is fixed by the structure of the lines; and the second is that in the past goods traffic has tended to be handled a number of times in the course of transit, which has been a disadvantage. These two disadvantages, it seems to me, have very much more to do with the falling off of traffic than the question of cost or the question of speed. I interrupted the hon. Member for Perry Barr when he was discussing the question of production and the railways. What I was thinking of was these two questions, which I have mentioned, and the attitude of the staff and the improvement of their conditions, which can make a very great difference in the amount of traffic which is put on the railways. If the conditions are bad, then there tend to be more breakages; and that tends to decrease the amount of traffic consigned to the railways. If conditions are good, and the men are keen, they tend to attract more traffic to the railways, that otherwise would go to road transport.
  I refer now to the increased charges that are proposed in these Regulations and Orders. I do not know if it is fully appreciated to what an extent they will affect distant parts of this country. The hon. Member for Perry Barr has mentioned the charges in relation to Birmingham, but there are many places much farther from London than Birmingham. I represent a Cornish constituency. Although in Cornwall we are still very proud of saying that Cornwall is not England, and talking about "across the water," meaning, by that, across the Tamar and not the English Channel; though we speak of "up country" as meaning anywhere outside of Cornwall——
  Mr. Ellis Smith: That is out of date.
  Mr. Wilson:—it remains the fact that Cornwall and the South-West are totally dependent on the rest of these islands, and are connected with them only by
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  long-distance transport. The Cornish farmer is much farther from his markets than, say, the farmer in Essex or Kent; and the same is true of the Cornish fishermen, who are much farther from the markets than are the fishermen in many other parts of the country. The same, of course, is also true of the china clay industry. It is entirely an export industry so far as Cornwall is concerned. A very great proportion of its output is shifted from Cornwall, and what is not sent abroad is sent by road or rail to distant parts of England—to London, to Stoke-on-Trent, and to the Midlands industrial area.
  Increased rail charges will have a very serious effect upon all these industries, to say nothing of the tourist industry. After all, it is possible for holiday makers from neighbouring big towns to reach Brighton and Blackpool by bicycle, but nobody is going to attempt that in going to Cornwall. Before we agree to any increased rail charges we shall have very seriously to consider how much these charges will affect the general public, and particularly how hard they will hit those members of the public who live in distant parts of the country.
  Before we agree to these charges we must also be satisfied that the British Transport Commission are acting with vigour and imagination, making the best use of the natural advantages of rail transport, and doing their best to minimise the disadvantages. Is everything being done to improve the position with regard to locomotion? I am glad to see that experiments with the Brown-Boveri gas turbine engine are going on, and that it is actually being put into use at the present time. But what has become of the light diesel cars that we used to see before the war, which seemed to be serving a very useful purpose for both passenger and parcel traffic?
  Mr. Monslow: Would the hon. Gentleman kindly inform the House how many diesel cars there were on the railways in this country before the war?
  Mr. Wilson: There were not a great number, but there were some in service on the Great Western Railway.
  Mr. Monslow: Not more than two.
  Mr. Wilson: There were more than two. To my knowledge there were at least three. I believe there were more than that, because there was one going from Birmingham to South Wales, there was another in the Newbury-Reading area, and there was also one which carried parcel traffic in that area.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Let us say three.
  Mr. Wilson: I think that there were more than that. The point is: Was that experiment in some other light form of transport as an alternative to the old cumbersome rail motor a success? If not, what were the objections to it? If it was a success, is anything being done to develop it and have any alternative means been tried for dealing with traffic over side lines? Are we satisfied that the very last word has been said on the question of steam? The "King," and the "Castle" classes of engine are still running on our railways after 20 years or more. They were very good engines, and obviously must have been because they are still running effectively. But are we satisfied that nothing more can be done in the direction of developing the steam engine?
  Contrary to popular belief, the steam engine was developed and improved very largely in Cornwall. Its development was very largely the work of Cornish mining engineers, and the reason why they took such a interest in it was because they were faced with very serious problems owing to the high cost of fuel far from the coalfields. It seems to me that that same problem of the high cost of fuel must be now arising, and I should like to know whether it has been considered whether there are any future improvements comparable with those achieved in the past which will give the steam engine a future.
  Mr. Crossman: While appreciating all these suggestions for improvements, might I ask the hon. Gentleman, as a railway expert, to tell us whether, in the period before these freight charge increases can be brought into force, they are, in his view, unavoidable?
  Mr. Wilson: It has already been suggested from this side of the House that there could be an inquiry into whether economies have been made. I was really answering the hon. Member for Perry Bar, who seemed to me to take such a
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  despondent view and to assume that nothing could be done to make the railways pay except to increase the charges. I suggest that there are quite a lot of things that could be done apart from economies; that there are other developments which could take place and could make the railways pay.
  Mr. Thomas Reid: The hon. Gentleman has given us a great many hints of an engineering and specialist character. He is no doubt aware that before the war there were proposals for the unification of transport. Is he or is he not in favour of the unification of transport?
  Mr. Wilson: That does not seem to me to arise in this Debate.
  I mentioned just now the regular delivery of goods. I was told by a railway official—I do not know with what proof—that the number of train-runners employed on the railway service has decreased. The train-runner is not a very spectacular or prominent official, but he does fulfil a very useful function, and if that is their idea of economy it seems to me rather an odd one. It is rather like a factory which is in difficulties dismissing the time-keeper in order to——
  Mr. Monslow: Would the hon. Gentleman inform the House whether there has been a reduction or an increase in the railway staff sincs nationalisation, to justify his point?
  Mr. Wilson: There has been a reduction in railway staff in certain grades, but the point I am making is that this seems rather an odd reduction to make. To obtain an increase in rail traffic one of the things to do, as an alternative to increasing the freight charges, should be to do everything to encourage those forms of traffic which are most likely to go by rail. One of those is traffic which is having a regular delivery, so that anything which can make for the smooth running of trains, for their punctuality, and for the smooth handling of traffic on platforms is an improvement which should be encouraged.
  In an earlier Debate in the House mention was made of the rather bad conditions under which railwaymen sometimes have to work. We know that is quite true. Some improvements have token place, but conditions are still very bad in many

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  places. I should like to know what is being done to improve the goods stations. Some of them are, to my own knowledge, in a rather bad state. If hon. Members want to see a rather peculiar goods station I recommend them to go to Smithfield goods station, which is not so very far from this House. It is underground; a dark and dusty dungeon which reminds one rather of the film producer's idea of the sewers of Vienna in the film "The Third Man." We cannot expect the British Transport Commission to undertake the rebuilding of the underground portions of London, but at least they can do something to improve conditions in some of these old-fashioned stations which still exist.
  Mr. Monslow: They were like that before the war.
  Mr. Wilson: I am not shirking that point, although, of course, improvements have been made over the course of time. But two wrongs do not make a right, and if we want now to increase the traffic we must do something about those conditions.
  Before we agree to these rail charges we must be satisfied that the whole matter has been tackled with dynamic energy and imagination, and that the railway losses are not being accepted with fatalistic resignation as inevitable acts of God about which nothing can be done except to stick up the charges. No doubt we shall be met with the challenge: "Why was not that done before? Why was there stagnation before the war?" That is no real answer. Even if there was stagnation before the war—and I am quite prepared to challenge that that was the case—it is no answer to the present problem merely to say so, because two wrongs do not make a right. We must assure ourselves that the matter is now being dealt with properly.
  Hon. Members opposite will at least agree with me in this, that in the beginning our railways got on top in face of very great opposition because of the force of character and the perseverance of a number of railway pioneers—men like Robert Stephenson and I. K. Brunei. There are still men of great character and perseverance on the railways, but one suspects that they are being bound round with red tape, and that they have just about as much mobility as an Egyptian
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  mummy. Before we agree to these charges I think that greater freedom should be given to these men who, I feel sure, if they were given freedom, would make totally unnecessary such an imposition as we are asked to accept.
  Mr. T. Reid: Is the hon. Gentleman in favour of road traffic taking the cream of the transport?
  5.40 p.m.
  Mr. Percy Morris: Before commenting upon the observations of the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) who opened the Debate, may I ask the Minister, when he is replying, to advise the House whether the contentions made in the leading article of the "Manchester Guardian" today have any foundation? I read the suggestion that the British Transport Commission interfere in the day-to-day management of its various executives. That is quite contrary to my experience and information. The House well knows that on matters of general principle and broad policy, the Transport Commission have that responsibility, but so far as the various executives are concerned, they exercise to the full the responsibility of directing the affairs of the particular section over which they preside.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that there was room for decentralisation. Surely that exists. There are six regions over which there is a regional officer. Each officer has the right to exercise initiative, enterprise, and to develop his service as he thinks best within the general circumferance of the B.T.C. These officers meet the officers of the Railway Executive once a fortnight, when they discuss matters of mutual importance and interest to all concerned. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just come into the Chamber, perhaps I may be permitted to repeat the point which I have just made that there is a great measure of decentralisation. As I have said, there are six regions presided over by a regional officer, and once a fortnight these regional officers meet the members of the Railway Executive and discuss matters of mutual interest and importance.
  The regional officers themselves have every authority to exercise initiative and

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  enterprise in developing their services. In fact these various regions are also divided into divisions, and there is a further measure or decentralisation there. From my own experience, there is more decentralisation today than ever before in the history of the railways. Let me give one example. The operating member of the Railway Executive Committee communicates direct with the operating superintendent in the region on purely operating matters and bas not to be involved with the chief regional officer, and in that way serious detriment to the working is avoided.
  The suggestion with which we are confronted today is by no means a new one. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may recall that in the pre-war days dividends on ordinary L.M.S. stock were non-existent. Credit was so low that they could not raise fresh capital. In fact, at one point in 1940, shares having a nominal value of £100 were sold for £9. The position was equally bad on the L.N.E.R. and to a lesser degree on the other two groups. What happened? They came to the State in order to be rescued, and the Rail Finance Corporation Act, 1935, raised no less than £26,190,000 at 2½ per cent. and lent that sum at that rate of interest to the four main groups in proportionate amounts. The G.W.R. got over £5 million, the L.M.S.R. over £8 million, the G.N.R. over £5 million and the Southern Railway over £5 million.
  I hope that it will not be regarded as disrespectful if I say that the railway companies in those years were the mendicants of the Treasury. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has, I think, under-estimated the difficulties and oversimplified the solution. He suggests that we should have a small committee of experts. Who is responsible for this work now? I mentioned in a previous Debate that the gentleman responsible for the charges scheme is none other than Sir William Valentine Wood, for many years regarded by the L.M.S.R. Company as the greatest railway statistician in the country. Whenever the railway unions had any contentious arguments, the reply was that Sir William's authority in the country on this matter could never be denied. He is the gentleman who is acting in the capacity of principal officer to the Commission now Is it suggested
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  that because he is working for the Ministry of Transport and the Government, he is less loyal and less efficient than formerly?
  After the 1914–18 war, rates were raised approximately 100 per cent. within a very short time. The same thing would have happened after the last war if the railways had gone back to private ownership. In fact, there was an understanding between the railway companies and the Government that the railways would not revert to private ownership until a reasonable time had been allowed to elapse, so that they could consider the rates and charges which were in existence, the purpose being to offer the railway companies an opportunity to secure a proper measure of rates and charges so that their revenue could be maintained. Now that the railways have come into public ownership, there seems to be a hullabaloo because we are making a reasonable effort in order to get the revenue necessary to balance our accounts.
  The difficulty that we are dealing with is not confined to the British Railways; in fact, it is something which is happening the world over. I think that it was the Deputy-Chairman of Canadian Railways who said, towards the end of last year, that the railway system all over the world had to be given a reasonable opportunity to set up a proper measure of charges in order to meet the increased costs they have to contend with and to get the proper revenue for their work.
  Nationalisation is inevitable. There is no reversion of the process, as I think hon. Members opposite will agree, but the troubles we are trying to solve are of very long-standing. I have in my hand a quotation from a speech delivered by the late Lord Stamp in 1937. He said:
  "We must now renew our efforts to secure the highly necessary co-ordination of road and rail functions in the public interest."
  Sir Alfred Read, presiding at the annual meeting of Coast Lines, Limited, made a similar observation. Perhaps it will be of greater interest to the House if I quote from the speech delivered by Mr. William Whitelaw, then Chairman of the L.N.E.R. Company, who said:
  "My reasons for wishing to see State ownership are as simple as would be the actual transaction. Perhaps the chief advantage would be the elimination of wasteful

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  competition. Some of this has disappeared, but we still see the running of unnecessary trains, the maintenance of unnecessary works and shunting sheds and depots in the same towns, and the competition between road and rail systems, which is often detrimental to both interests."
  So 13 years ago, Mr. William Whitelaw was forecasting the problems we are trying to solve today. May I point out that substantial economies have been effected and are being effected? One was referred to in the reduction of the number of staff. Then there is the reduction of the number of types of locomotives from approximately 200 to 12. There has been a new type of rail chair to give smoother and more efficient running. These policies will take many years to mature before we can derive the fullest possible advantage. There are schemes of integration that are being developed and carried out. Within two or three years we shall have very substantial advantages from the measures that have been taken.
  The leading article in the "Manchester Guardian" made one other suggestion, namely, that the Transport Commission had suggested that no substantial economies could be effected. I venture to say that no Member can quote a single member of the Transport Commission who has made such a statement. What they have said is that the type of economy which will bring permanent advantage to the country and to the industry will take a considerable period to mature. It is because of that that they are asking, in the meantime, that they should be given this helping hand as far as rates are concerned.
  But there is another aspect to which I should refer. Many people hold the view that the Government paid far too much for the railways when they bought them, and the railwaymen resent the fact that they have to work hard to raise the revenue of £24 million per annum for the railway stockholders alone. In the prewar years, the ordinary shareholders had nothing at all. The guaranteed preference and debenture shareholders made no sacrifices, and the only people who made the sacrifices were the ordinary shareholders and the employees who submitted to a 5 per cent. reduction in their salaries. But now, in the postwar years, we are having to find this £24 million per annum for the shareholders.
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  What we think would be a fair solution—and no one is suggesting depriving stockholders of the reasonable compensation to which thy are entitled and to which we have been parties to all along—is that the Government should make a fresh estimate of what the railways were actually worth when they took them over and charge the railway industry with that amount of revenue to earn. If that happened, the picture would be a very different one. As has been pointed out, 56 commodities that the Railway Executive use cost more than two and a half times the pre-war amount. If those from whom we buy were content with the same increases in their goods as we charge for transport, the situation would be a very much healthier one as far as the Railway Executive is concerned.
  I ask the House to oppose this Motion and to recognise that no other form of transport can perform the primary functions of the railway industry, which is essential in times of peace as in times of war. I ask Members to adopt a realistic approach to the industry, recognising that the work being done and the contribution being made by the experts concerned, in many cases selected by Members opposite, is proving worth while. Given a chance, we shall balance our accounts and transport will be unified and co-ordinated. It will become one of the greatest assets of the country and one of the leading industries in the world.
  5.54 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Davies: I must first refer to the last part of the speech of the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. P. Morris), who suggested that the Government made a bad bargain when they nationalised the railways by undertaking to pay the present amount of compensation. Surely the Government were not obliged to do so. It was they who chose the moment to take over the industry. Is he really suggesting that when any industry has been nationalised, some approximation at least of the market value of the shares should not be paid? If that were not the case, it would be pure confiscation.
  I also understood him to suggest that the Government and the Minister should go back on their bargain and reduce the amount paid to the railway stockholders. If that sort of thing is going to happen, I can think of nothing more damaging to

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  British credit in the world. Nothing could be more damaging than for the Government to make a bargain and then not to keep it and not to pay the interest promised. I should like to know who will lend the Government money in the future if that sort of suggestion is accepted.
  We have heard a lot from Members opposite about the past history of the railways, going back even as far as the 1914–18 war. Surely the main thing is that we must review this problem in the light of our economic position today, particularly in the light of what has been referred to, and can only be referred to, as the inflationary spiral, which still continues in this country at a time when it has ceased in practically all the rest of the world. Surely these rail freight increases will give more of a spurt to that inflationary spiral than any other increase in prices. Increased freight charges affect practically every commodity our industries produce. They not only give a direct but an indirect twist to the inflationary spiral, because it means an increase in the price of the coal the railways have to buy, and therefore the cost of maintaining the railways will become even higher.
  I would also mention one other factor, namely, the effect these increased charges will have on agriculture in general and horticulture in particular. The horticultural industry depends very much on coal and at the moment it is suffering from the bad quality and high price of coal. Now it is to pay an even higher price for its coal. The question which I would put to the Minister and which so far has not been answered, is why freight is to bear the whole cost of these increased charges. Is it because the industrialists can pay? Is it because industry can afford to take the load, or is it that a case can be made out, on the showing of today's costs, that the present proportion of charges as between freight and passenger traffic is illogical?
  Surely that is the gist of the problem, and the case which should be made out if freights are to bear the whole of this cost. It may be, particularly at a time when General Elections take place so frequently, that an increase in passenger fares would be much more unpopular. It is true that it would have a far quicker impact upon the general public. But surely, putting the whole of the increase
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  on freight, will have a far more direct and quicker impact on industry in general and on our exports, in particular.
  What is to be the policy over the next year or two in regard to the railways? Much has been said about measures of integration and economy over a longer period, but it seems inevitable that in the present state of our economy the costs of the railways, like everything else, will continue to rise. These new charges are designed only to go some way towards meeting the present gap, but that gap, unless we make far larger economies, is likely to become bigger, bearing in mind the demand for increased wages which was made long ago at a time when the general price levels in this country were lower than those of today.
  Where will all this end? Is it not likely that there will be further increases in costs, and, therefore, further demands? Is it not likely that the Minister, if he is still in office, will come to us in a matter of months and ask for further money to defray the costs of the railways? Are we then to put it on to passenger fares, or again on to freights and thereby give still more impetus to the inflationary situation? Can further economies be promised that really will ensure that rail costs will be reduced and not increased?
  In my experience with ordinary types of consumer goods, road transport costs are actually lower than those of the railways, even at present and in spite of the new and penal taxation on road transport. The new rail charges will increase that disparity considerably and will cause a reduction in the amount of freight carried on the railways. It will encourage people to send their goods by road and not by rail. If we are to pursue a policy of allowing rail charges to rise freely and then, by taxation or other means, force road charges to follow them, we shall place on the whole of industry, and particularly on the export industry, a ruinous burden such as other countries simply do not have to bear. This will be occurring at the very worst time of all.
  This is the time when importers in other countries are demanding that prices should be lower on the goods they receive from Great Britain and not higher, especially when they are getting lower quotations from exporters in other countries. I would mention in that

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  respect, particularly Germany. We cannot afford at this moment to do anything which will increase the all-round costs and prices in our economy if our level of exports is to be maintained and increased, particularly to dollar areas.
  Hon. Members might say, as they have said, "What can we do about it? We have to meet expenses, and that's that." In the situation in which we find ourselves we have to appeal to more drastic measures. We shall have to cut down. The general manager of a firm could not go to the board of directors and say, "I might be able to do something in five or ten years' time." He would have to do something at once, or the business would be put into the hands of the receivers.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Would he not adjust his prices in accordance with his day-today trade?
  Mr. N. Davies: No, he would not. Transport charges are not at a level where industry can bear them, and they will have a throttling effect upon industry. Suppose the railways were allowed to compete freely with every form of transport. Suppose there were no form of Government control, and that road and rail transport could—I do not suggest that they should—do what they liked and compete freely one with another. The railways would not fade away, but they would go back, and they would have to be put into the hands of the receivers. They would be reconstituted upon a reduced, more efficient and more Streamlined basis. That is what would happen. I, therefore, suggest that we have reached a stage at which the railways are virtually bankrupt and when rail costs are too high for our industries to stand them. We have to look at the problem in the light of that fact and take radical action.
  Mr. Crossman: In view of the important statement which the hon. Member has just made, does he not think that £24 million was a somewhat excessive compensation for what he now declares to be a bankrupt industry?
  Mr. Davies: I did not declare that it was bankrupt two years ago. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We heard a lot of praise from the hon. Member for Perry Bar (Mr. Poole) of the performance of
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  the railways during the war, before they were nationalised. The present situation has been brought about during the past two years.
  It is said that the railways cannot cut down their costs, but it has been admitted, and everybody knows, that the railways are employing more men than before the war to do the same jobs. How does that fact tally with the figures of increased productivity that we have heard, and with the statistics that are dished out from day to day to show how productivity has increased in this country? The situation has to be faced that the railways need more men, and not fewer, than they did before the war, and the plain fact is that we are not in a position to afford them. Surely it is now necessary for the railways to study whatever measures may be necessary to follow private industry in seeking increased efficiency. I have said that drastic measures will be necessary. If nothing else can meet the case, we shall have to face the possibility of cutting out some of the minor, non-paying subsidiary lines on which the trains never pay their way, even if that may cause some inconvenience.
  I believe that if road transport were allowed to compete in this respect, it would soon meet the need and fill the gap in those cases. We should get away from the idea that we can go on indefinitely, in transport or in anything else, propping up the weak at the expense of the strong and making the efficient pay for the inefficient. Our economy is permeated with that idea. In this and in other matters we really are too protection-minded. Industry as a whole, and not only road and rail transport, is—I do not mind saying—permeated by a network of trade associations and of restrictive practices in labour which serve exactly the same purpose of fixing prices and thereby of assuring the existence of the inefficient and giving a much easier existence to the efficient. In the case of transport we should start on the opposite tack. We should make a practice of encouraging the strong and vigorous—and not of helping the weak to survive at the expense of the strong, as is happening in the case of road and railways—in their efforts to adapt themselves to the changing circumstances with which they are faced.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Monslow: I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Epping (Mr. N. Davies), and I should like to comment upon one or two of the observations he made. He talked about our economic position. I would indicate to him my firm conviction that had it not been for Governmental action in the last Parliament in taking over the mines and the railways, it would have been a sorry day for our national economy, and that we should have seen more tragic happenings than those which we are discussing at present.
  The hon. Member dealt with the problem of freightage between road and rail. This is clearly a situation which we should remedy by a more expeditious integration of all forms of transport—road, rail and canal. We do not agree that there should be disparity in respect of freight rates. The importance of railways in our country cannot be overestimated, and it cannot be denied that if the railways had reverted to private enterprise at the end of the war we should have been in a more sorry plight. Today we would not have been asking for 16⅔ per cent. increase, but for 33⅓ per cent. to meet the situation.
  The Opposition prate about being kindly disposed and very compassionate towards the lower-paid workers in this industry, but we have to realise that if the industry were denied the right to these increased charges there could be no improvements in the wages standards of those workers. So the attitude of the Opposition is just sheer cant, humbug and hypocrisy.
  In my view the basis of compensation paid to the stockholders of the companies formerly owning the railways was far too high. The Opposition, I understand, feel that we ought to have given higher compensation. That has been made plain, and I would inform the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie), who nods his head, that in a quarter of a century we shall have paid back the total capital assets of the railways and also the interest and dividends, all at the expense of the railway workers.
  Mr. Michael Astor: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that compensation means, in fact, not just hand-out remuneration, but money to compensate
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  exactly? If the hon. Member regards compensation as a pay off, he loses all sense of argument on the question of compensation. It should not be a political issue at all.
  Mr. Monslow: I regard this compensation as a burden on the industry. Since the nationalisation Measure passed through this House, for the first time the deferred stockholders have been paid interest on their capital, which they never had under private enterprise. We live in an age of change, and the railway workers are no longer going to put up with charity. They are demanding justice. Hon. Gentlemen opposite know little or nothing of railway working conditions, whereas many of us on this side of the House have experience of them. I myself worked on the footplate and was called out at all hours of the night. Though I had a nervous wife and a sick child, I had to go away not knowing when I would be returning, or to what. For that we received a miserable pittance, and those were the conditions under private enterprise.
  Today, under nationalisation, there have been improved conditions for the British railway workers, which is a complete change from what we experienced in the days when the Tories dominated the Government and supported private enterprise. It is said that these increased charges will increase the cost of living. If I have one complaint to make against the Government, it is that they do not take some positive action to restrain certain industries which are at the moment making fabulous profits, but which at the first opportunity are disposed to pass additional charges on to consumers, even though the economic position does not warrant the transfer of those charges. Due regard should be paid to that aspect of the problem.
  The Transport Commission in my view are taking the only step possible in the present circumstances. They are doing what is fair, right and just, and it must not be thought by the Opposition that the nationalised industries should not be permitted to increase charges whereas private enterprise can increase theirs. These charges must come into force, because there must be some improvement in the economic status of those engaged in the industry. I make this prediction—if these new charges are not

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  conceded, it means a scaling down of those things which are vitally necessary to allow of improvements and expansion after two periods of devastating war.
  I understand that the Opposition are going to divide the House on this matter. We shall know by their action that they are interested not so much in the economic rehabilitation of this country as in a political manoeuvre in the hope of gaining public support. If these charges are not accepted, we shall see train services and facilities worse instead of better. These charges are right, just and equitable, and if the Opposition expect the railway workers to accept what they have accepted in the past, that will not be the case, and the full power of the railway trade unions will be used in support of the workers in British Railways.
  6.18 p.m.
  Major McCallum: We have just listened to a good electioneering speech. A great deal was said about the railway workers and their conditions of work. I should like to tell the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Monslow) that I am informed by railway workers in my constituency that they were far better off under private enterprise control than they are today. I should like to cite an example. It is a custom in one railway town in my constituency to order two or three wagons now and again to clear away ashes and clinkers. In the old days the foreman rang up Stirling and after two or three days the wagons were sent and the stufl was cleared. What happens today? The foreman rings up Stirling, Stirling rings up Edinburgh, Edinburgh rings up London and London rings up Derby. Fourteen days later the trucks come through. That is State control of the railways.
  I have no complaints to make about he railway personnel. For the 10 years that I have been in this House I have been carried twice a week between the north of Scotland and London, with regularity, speed and every courtesy. I remember leaving this House during the blitz years and going to Euston Station where bombs were falling and yet the engine drivers and other railway workers did not dream of leaving the footplate. They showed tremendous courage. No one in the House has any fault to find
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  with the railway workers, and I really think that the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness was going outside the subject of the Debate in what he said. As regards the Transport Commission, nobody could receive more courteous treatment in their correspondence than I have received from Sir Cyril Hurcomb and his staff. On every occasion a full explanation is given courteously and expeditiously.
  The increased charges will fall heavily upon those people on the lower levels of income in the north, north-west and the north-east of Scotland—particularly in the north-west. Not only will they have to pay the increased charge for what is sent by rail, whether it be feedingstuffs for their animals, foodstuffs or building materials, but these things arrive at the ports on the west coast of Scotland and from next Monday increased charges on the steamer freights will have to be paid. Those areas of the country will, therefore, be doubly hit by the rise.
  The Minister might have found a better way to help the railways than by raising the charges. Would it not have been better, particularly for the far-away areas, to lower the charges in order to encourage an increased amount of traffic? It is always the custom of hon. Gentlemen opposite to look upon the remote agricultural dwellers as not worth considering. It is true that they may not all have used their votes as hon. Gentlemen opposite desired and perhaps for that reason hon. Gentlemen opposite feel that they are not worth considering, but the Opposition certainly think they are worth considering. In fact, they are the most important community in the country.
  Mr. Boothby: And the best.
  Major McCallum: They are also those to whom we always turn in time of trouble. Would it not be possible to give favourable rates to people living in the remoter areas in order to encourage them to increase their freights? I had an opportunity of putting to the Chairman of the Transport Commission the proposal that he should grant favourable treatment in order to encourage the development of industry in the Highlands in cases where a certain regularity of freights could be promised. That is a method by which the Railway Executive could obtain increased revenue.
  Mr. Harrison: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give way to me? I feel very kindly disposed towards him because I happen to be one of the drivers he was so pleasantly describing just now. An important point in his argument relates to the remote areas which, from the point of view of administration and running, are the most expensive areas in the whole system. We depend very considerably on the suburban traffics to subsidise the scanty traffics of the very remote parts of Scotland and some parts of England. I wish he would address himself to that problem for a moment.
  Major McCallum: The hon. Gentleman has made my point for me. The complaint today is of a scanty traffic from the remoter areas, and what I am suggesting is that if the Railway Executive will lower their charges they will have better traffic so that those areas will be less of a burden on the more populous areas. That has proved to be the case in trade, and I do not see why it should not be the case on the railways.
  Another industry which will be very severely hit by the increased charges, as well as by other things which have taken place within the last few weeks, is the fishing industry. Particularly in Scotland it will be severely hit. There is a certain regularity of fish trains from Aberdeen and fish wagons from Mallaig and Oban. With the certainty of that regular traffic, is it not possible to grant a favourable freight charge which would tend to increase the traffic?
  One of my hon. Friends has suggested that one of the ways to help the railways would be to close the uneconomic branch lines and thereby save expense on them. That would be a retrograde movement. There is no doubt that the most regular and satisfactory form of transport over a period is railway transport and to cut down the traffic by heavy freight charges and by the cutting out of branch lines which would take some of that traffic is a retrograde step. It may be suggested that that sort of traffic can be carried by road transport in the future, but it should be remembered that since the infliction of the 9d. a gallon increase, the price of petrol in the islands of Scotland is 3s. 6½d. and not 3s. as it is in London. That makes a tremendous difference to the likelihood of this traffic being carried by
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  road. I trust that the Minister will consider giving favourable rates to certain freights in the remoter areas, for I am sure that that will lead to an amelioration of the difficulties which are experienced by the railways.
  6.28 p.m.
  Mr. Crossman: I would say to the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) that, even if the railways into his constituency were crammed every day with tourists and those out of it were crammed with fish, I doubt whether the problems of the Transport Commission would be completely solved. I cannot feel that we can solve them by the local constituency interest of getting reduced freight charges for one's own people. That is not what we are really talking about here.
  I agreed with one thing that the hon. and gallant Gentleman said. He may be surprised. A great many railway workers tend to feel that they were better off in the '30's. The reason is a very important one. They were in a sheltered industry. They watched large-scale unemployment around them. They had low wages, but at least they had a job. Today, with full employment, other workers have caught them up and gained the security and the shelter, because the shelter is over everybody, and now their low wages seem very meagre compared with those who have passed them by. The sense of frustration on the part of the railway worker is a tribute to full employment, which has taken away the privilege of security with low wages which he enjoyed in the '30's.
  I now come to the central issue. I cannot help feeling that the Conservative attack today has so far been something of a sham. No one on the other side of the House, not even the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe), has seriously made a case as to how we could avoid these increases of charges without a subsidy, and no one opposite has mentioned a subsidy at all. We heard from the right hon. and learned Gentleman a long and interesting speech which I can sum up in a single sentence; the increase of the charges is unnecessary because the losses could all be avoided by economies—economies which can be carried out so quickly that all we have to do is to get the businessmen, report quickly, carry out economies, and the railways will be solvent and

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  everything will be in order. That was the case which was presented by the right hon. and learned Gentleman much more persuasively than I have been able to recapitulate it. I found it a somewhat evasive case, but I must relate it to the Tory Party. Nationalised transport is one of the few industries on which the party opposite has dared to commit itself and has stated what it would do or would not have done.
  What is one of the main burdens of the railways today? It has been mentioned by speakers on this side of the House. Up to the time when we nationalised the railways they were receiving large sums of money from the Government—I think the figure was £43 million. After nationalisation, they have to pay out as a first charge £24 million in compensation. The policy of the party opposite was to increase the compensation, and if you increase compensation you increase the need for higher freight charges. Therefore, the first thing we notice is that the party opposite, if it had had its way, would have nationalised the railways and paid even more compensation.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who is sometimes frank—and embarrassing to the other side—remarked the other day that we nationalised at the wrong time; by which he meant that, if we had waited two years, at least two of the main railways would have been in the hands of the receiver and we would have got them cheaper. So now we observe the Leader of the Opposition saying, "If I had been a Socialist, I would have waited until they were bankrupt, I would have ruined the widows, I would have seen to it that I got the railways for nothing," while the rest of the party says, "You should have paid millions more in compensation to the railways than £24 million." So the first part of their programme is to pay even more for the railways than the considerable over-payment we made.
  Their second proposal to help the railways is that we should de-nationalise road transport, that we should take the one profitable part of transport, hand it back to private enterprise, and so increase still further the difficulties of the railways. The right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned the problem of "C" licences and said that we should not put too much
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  stress on the competition of road transport. I agree. I say that on analysing the "C" licences, one finds that a large number of them are fight carriers which have no appreciable effect on rail transport.
  Yet I must add, speaking for a constituency more concerned with road than with rail transport, that I am well aware that large fleets of heavy lorries have been built up or acquired from private enterprise by motor car firms in Coventry for carrying goods in order to reduce the traffic available to nationalised transport. I do not say they were wrong to do it. All I am saying is that it was a great mistake of the Government to give way over the "C" licences and that those licences were part of the Tory policy.
  Therefore, here we have the three factors: first, more compensation to be paid; secondly, the de-nationalisation of road transport as soon as possible in order to take away the one profitable thing by which, to some extent, we can compensate for railway losses; and thirdly, to do everything possible to enable road transport to compete on unequal terms with the railways.
  I want to be perfectly frank as the representative of a motor car town. It is of no interest to the motor car worker to see the railways bankrupt and ruined. We are concerned with a sensible integration. If I may say so to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the weakness of his extremely skilful speech was that it dealt so exclusively with the problem of railways and carefully left out of account the main problem of integration. He simply said we could not wait for all that because we had to get economies immediately. I will come to the economies later. Still we have to agree that, in the long run, some of the speeches of his back benchers when he was out, particularly that from an hon. Gentleman who said we ought to allow the strong to defeat the weak and allow the road to smash rail, do not represent the view of any responsible person.
  What is to be done with road and rail? I will be perfectly open. Since the war we have done more to the disadvantage of the railways than was done even in the '30's. We have permitted a vast number of new vehicles to come on the roads, and to do that is certainly not helping the railways. Our petrol costs, though

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  they have been raised 9d. this time, are still very low compared with those of any other European country when we see the comparative costs of road and rail. After all, petrol is an artificially priced article and the tax comprises most of the price. In fact, the price of petrol is always what the Government decide that road transport shall pay for the great advantage it receives over and against rail, for not having a permanent way to keep up which it bought at a vastly inflated cost. Any reasonable person knows that the cost of petrol has to be fixed in relation to the railway problem.
  Sir Peter Bennett Sir Peter Bennett (Birmingham, Edgbaston) indicated dissent.
  Mr. Crossman: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but every Government has done it in the past.
  Sir P. Bennett: It was not done that way or for that purpose.
  Mr. Crossman: If the hon. Gentleman will look up the speech of the Leader of the Opposition when, as Chancellor, he introduced the Petrol Duty, he will find it explicitly stated by the right hon. Gentleman that one of the considerations in the price of petrol has to be a fair balance between road and rail. Since the petrol price is a fictitious price anyway, unless you are prepared to do that, there will be no tax at all on petrol, and then you can really allow the road to cream off everything it likes from the rail. Nobody says we should do that.
  All I would say to the party opposite, therefore, is that it is not much good coming to the House and complaining of increases in freight charges when the whole of their policy was designed to ensure that the only profitable part of transport should be taken away from the Transport Commission, handed back to private enterprise, and the railways put into the most extreme difficulty. I must admit that I think this was inevitable. Once we took over the railways, directors were no longer over on that side of the House. Only the directors of the bus companies are there now, and they are the people who are fighting for the road, and, of course, the interest in rail disappears directly the directorates cease to be on the other side of the House. It is simple. Every industry we nationalise loses its loyal political lawyers on the
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  other side of the House from that moment. It is a somewhat one-sided relationship, after all.
  Now I want to turn to constructive suggestions.
  Hon. Members: Hurrah.
  Mr. Messer: Hon. Members opposite do not like them.
  Mr. Crossman: If hon. Gentlemen would be fair and would listen to the Debate, I would say that a certain amount of criticism of the policy of the party opposite is allowed to both sides, and it is relevant to observe what is the Tory policy about transport, in order to evaluate the hypocrisy or sincerity of this Prayer.
  Now let me turn to the possible alternatives to these increased freight charges. There seem to me to be three alternative possibilities. The first is that we could achieve in the immediate future such overwhelming economies that we need not increase the charges. That was the belief of the right hon. and learned Gentleman—that this business committee could achieve such great economies that we should not have to increase the freight charges; and his one main proposal was that the railways should make sacrifices on the passenger side.
  If that is not defeatism, what is? No serious person would suggest that we should give up the whole of our passenger side and say, "On that side we will make the most drastice increase to the inconvenience of the public as a way of earning a living for the railways." Surely hon. Members-opposite cannot agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the solution is drastically to cut railway services and to drive people once and for all from the railway on to the bus? [An HON. MEMBER:" Why not?"] Because that if that is done, no railway can conceivably make money. If half the revenue is taken——
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Will the hon. Member allow me to intervene for I am sure that he is trying to answer the point? The point which I made was that there was an additional loss, which one could evaluate exactly, of £15 million through putting on the extra trains, and that there was no response. I suggested, therefore, that these trains should be cut. Does the hon. Member agree with me on that?
  Mr. Crossman: Yes, and for the reason that I do not think this problem can be solved in terms of 12 months. The right hon. and learned Member suggests that if there is no immediate response, one's response is to make a cut. No business man has ever developed his business by saying, "I have put out my line of goods. There is a few months' failure of the public to receive it, therefore I will give up trying."
  Passenger transport must be won back to some extent from the buses. One of our troubles, and one of the Minister's weaknesses, is that he has allowed his Transport Commission to be extremely dilatory in taking over the buses, which has made it impossible for him, therefore, to integrate road and rail transport on the passenger side. I was hoping to hear that suggestion put forward from the other side of the House. I hope to hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman encouraging the Minister to hurry up with the nationalisation of passenger transport, to make sure that he does not over-compensate, to make quite sure that not too much money is paid, and to see that it is done really quickly so that integration can take place. But not a word have we heard from the opposite side of any desire for an integrated transport system.
  Mr. Arthur Colegate: Increased charges.
  Mr. Crossman: One of our difficulties on this side is that we have to educate the backward Members little by little. Whether it is America, where private railways have millions of losses, or Switzerland, which happens to be a capitalist country with a nationalised railway system, I challenge the hon. Member to name many countries where railways can be run at a very great profit in the modern world. Yet every country needs railways. It is a simple fact that if the railways cannot be run in the normal way as a profitable business, then the relationship between road and rail cannot be fixed on simple, free enterprise competition, and a Government has to step in and to have a policy to relate the two sides. If hon. Gentlemen opposite were to be in the position of a Government, they would have to reach a formula for working the two together. I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who I know accepts that point, that on the whole he has not made out a case,
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  and that short-term drastic economies, which might possibly balance a budget over months, would utterly ruin the long-term scheme of integration.
  Now I come to the second possibility. It would, of course, be possible so to penalise road transport that traffic is driven back to the railways. Petrol could be raised to 6s. or 7s. a gallon; or other steps of that kind could be taken. I do not think, however, that anybody in the House suggests that that would be a good thing. Although I believe that on the whole the increase in the Petrol Duty was justifiable to keep the balance fair as between road and rail, we shall certainly not settle the problem by raising the price continually to the stage where nobody can afford to travel by road. We are not going to do that.
  What, then, are we left with? The problem cannot be settled by economies, or by destroying road transport. The only way in which rail freight and passenger charges can be kept down and a fair wage provided for the railwaymen is by a subsidy. I shall be told, I know, that it is terrible to say such a thing, but I reply to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in this way. Some £300 million a year is, very properly, going to encourage British farmers to be enterprising. They were not told, "Put your house in order first, effect your economies, then we will help you afterwards." They were told, "We want you to work, so we are giving you a basis on which you will not go bankrupt and on which you will have the chance to pull your industry together." We did not say to civil aviation, "You must make a profit first." Nor did we say that to the steel industry; we gave them a subsidy for a short time. Then we gave a subsidy to the clockmakers—we are trying to stimulate a British clock industry, if hon. Members opposite want to know.
  Mr. Boothby: Which industry?
  Mr. Crossman: Clocks. I think that the sum which has been put into the industry is £10 million.
  All I ask myself is this. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite really are concerned with transport and want cheap transport and fair wages for the men, all this will not be achieved without active Government assistance to the industry.

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  To nationalise an industry, to remove from it the presents which it was previously receiving from the Government, to burden it with compensation far more than the railways were worth and then to say, "Pay your way," but to be surprised that the charges go up, is the outlook of a very simple person indeed.
  I suggest to the Minister a constructive alternative to a constant increase of charges. Why do the Government not take responsibility for the permanent way? I am really concerned to find a basis on which road and rail can fairly compete. If something is done to remove from the railways the incubus of history, which, of course, the roads never had, then at least they can be said to be roughly on a par; and until the two are put roughly on a par, it is no good the Minister saying that because a Bill has been passed, he can sit back and do nothing about it. The right hon. and learned Gentleman very properly said that this House is responsible. That is why I did not like the suggestion of a committee—we are the committee who should be considering transport, and we consider it through the Minister. Surely, hon. Members opposite should address their suggestions to the Minister.
  What policy should we have to see that in transport we have decent wages and cheap facilities, just as we have cheap food and decent wages and profits in the agricultural industry? That is the problem. Until the Minister faces it, he will not be able to undertake economies. He could go to the industry with an offer of assistance on condition that it carried out a drastic economy in staff, a drastic cutting of subsidiary lines and a sensible use of bus transport—for buses often operate where railways are running. All those economies could be pressed upon the industry by a Minister who said, "I will help you if you hurry up and put your house in order." That would be a sensible and constructive way of dealing with transport, and until we have the courage to do that, I warn the House that we shall have increasing charges and substandard wages for the workers in the industry.
  6.47 p.m.
  Mr. Aubrey Jones: I should like to follow the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Cross-man), in looking at the subject from a
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  general rather than from a local point of view. I should, however, like to tell him that I have no personal preference for, or interest in, either road or rail. My only concern is to ensure for the country the most efficient and economical forms of transport.
  Before I pass to any general considerations I should like to say a few words on a more limited matter. A number of speakers this afternoon, particularly on this side of the House, have spoken of the effect of the increased charges on particular areas and industries. I ought perhaps to say something about the effect of the increased charges upon steel. It is within the knowledge of the House that the prices of steel have not been increased, but it would be wrong to regard the increase in charges as having no effect upon costs. Rising output and rising productivity were such that an opportunity was developing for a reduction in the prices of steel. The result of the increase in freight charges has been the closing and denying of this opportunity. That, I think, is the correct appreciation of the position.
  I should like to pass now to more general considerations. The case for an increase in railway freight charges rests upon one central argument—namely, that charges have increased by only 55 per cent. since 1939 whereas the costs of supplies and services used by the railways have increased by 120 per cent. I will not deny that there is a certain force in that argument. I suggest, however, that the force is exaggerted and the argument is, in fact, being made to carry more than it ought to carry, that this disparity is not enough to explain the losses the railways are incurring and that, in resorting to that argument—in restorting to it so freely and unblushingly—the Minister is setting a very dangerous precedent.
  If we look at the history of railway rates we find that they always remain relatively much more stable than the prices of other goods. For instance, in the depression of 1929–1931, when the Board of Trade wholesale prices index fell by 30 per cent., railway charges remain unchanged. That was not an accident; it arose out of the nature of things, because fixed capital charges and fixed operating costs play a relatively much more important part in railway

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  finance than in the finances of any other industry. If, then, the railways do not suffer from the disadvantages of a depression to the same extent as other industries suffer, it seems to me that they ought now at least to be temperate in asserting an equal claim to the advantages of a boom.
  That is the statistical argument; but more important is the argument of principle. Last autumn we in this country underwent a reduction in the value of our currency, and I am glad to say that devaluation has had a very beneficial effect on the country's economy. But, as we all know, it has caused, and will continue to cause, increases in the costs of imported raw materials. If every industry and every firm were to turn round and say, "My costs have gone up by x per cent.; therefore, I must raise my prices by x per cent.," the whole beneficial effect of devaluation would be cancelled and our competitive position would become precisely that of last summer. In other words, if we are to make devaluation a permanent and not just a temporary good it is the duty of every industry to try to offset increased costs by economies. If voluntary dividend limitation and voluntary wage limitation are important—which I think they are—voluntary price limitation is equally important.
  The question is: Can economies be effected? That is the crux of the whole matter. I wish to elaborate a point which has so far been made by only one speaker in the Debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Nigel Davies). I suggest that the real cause of the losses being incurred by the railways is a redundancy or an excess of capacity, that the extent and gravity of that excess are not appreciated and that the result of the increases we are debating today will be to aggravate, rather than to ameliorate, the trouble.
  I am a layman in these matters, and railway affairs are a statistician's paradise. I do not want to disport myself on such an arid playground, but I cannot help being struck by certain very salient figures. In 1913 the mileage of track in this country amounted to 50,604. In 1948 the mileage of track was 52,235. The track remained practically stationary—there was a slight but almost negligible
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  increase. Passenger journeys, however, declined. In 1913 they were 1,332 million, and in 1948 they were 996 million.
  Mr. Poole: Will the hon. Member tell us how much of those 52,000 miles of track in 1913 have been sterilised and gone out of commission?
  Mr. Jones: I confess that I cannot give that information. I have taken the figures from the railway statistics and, if I am putting a wrong interpretation on them, I am open to correction. I am a layman in this matter, but what I am suggesting is that the track mileage has remained stationary, the number of passengers has decreased and the freight has decreased. In 1913, 364 million tons were carried, and in 1948 there was a total of 276 million tons. A railway statistician may say, "You are a crude layman, using these gross tonnage figures; what you ought to consider is the length of haul, the distance over which this tonnage is carried." Of course, the length of haul has increased. It was 52½ miles in 1922 and, in 1948, it had gone up to 70 miles.
  I suggest that these figures lend themselves to the following interpretation, and I do not think the interpretation is far fetched. By 1913 we had built up a railway network of main line and branch lines appropriate to that time but. since then, that network has been in excess of our needs. The network has remained intact, but the use made of it has declined. The decline has affected different sectors in different ways. The explanation of the increase in length of haul, I suggest, is that through traffic is relatively greater, but branch lines are being used far less. That is the real burden of costs on the railways. The branch lines are still there and have to be maintained. They are a very heavy contribution to the total burden of costs.
  We have heard this afternoon a great deal about economies in manpower. I suggest that part of the difficulty in making an economy in manpower is the continued existence of this excess capacity. Further, I wish to make this point, that if we now increase charges traffic will again decrease, possibly to an extent greater than the £10 million for which the Commission have budgeted. If that effect takes place, the margin of

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  excess capacity, or of redundancy, is enlarged. In other words, the evil is aggravated and not solved, or eradicated.
  Ours is not the only country suffering from this problem. It does not only hold in England and Wales and Scotland. On 6th January there appeared in the City columns of "The Times" a summary of the report for, I believe, 1948, of the Ulster Transport Authority. That report diagnosed the losses being incurred by that authority as I have diagnosed the losses of the British Transport Commission; they were due to precisely this cause, to an excess of capacity. So the authority applied to the Ulster Ministry of Commerce for permission to close uneconomic lines. The authority complained that the Ministry's permission for closing those lines was a long time coming and the continuing delay was aggravating the losses which were being incurred.
  I have no wish to be partisan on this subject, and I recognise that if an industry is faced with the problem of redundant or excess capacity it is facing a difficult dilemma. But painful as it is, and many other industries with experiences of the 'thirties will confirm me in this, such an industry will never prosper again until the elimination of the redundancy is effected. I grant that some of these uneconomic lines may be necessary for military reasons. It is possible, I do not know, that the greater part of them may be necessary for those reasons. The point is that that question has not been examined. It was never mentioned in the report of the Transport Commission or before the Consultative Committee. It has not recived adequate attention on the Floor of the House today. I suggest that it is wrong to concede an increase of this kind without going into a question of such importance and magnitude. Not only has there been no discussion of this matter, but it seems to me that the gravity of the whole matter has not been appreciated.
  The position to which we have come is that a leak has appeared in the financial dam of the railway companies. The Minister has hurried to plug this leak, but in doing so in this way, by raising charges, he seems to disregard the fact that the cause of the leak continues and that the flood threatens to accumulate.
  Mr. Poole: It has been going on for 20 years.
  Mr. Jones: Of course it has. I am not trying to criticise the railways because they are nationalised. I am looking at the problem of the railways irrespective of whether their ownership is in public or private hands.
  I will summarise the two reason why I feel that I should oppose this increase in charges. The first is that the increase has been accorded as a result of an examination carried out on much too narrow a basis. We have heard a great deal from the other side of the House this afternoon about integration, but the word is meaningless. All that it means is common ownership, but in the framework of that common ownership a proper balance has still to be determined between road and rail. It is not determined. We do not know what it is. That is one objection. My second objection has been touched upon by the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). It is that in giving this financial aid by way of an increase of charges to the railways—the hon. Member referred to financial aid by way of subsidy—we are not asking, in exchange, that the railways should address themselves to the difficult but supremely important problem of adapting themselves to radically changed times and conditions. That is the trouble.
  I regretted that the hon. Member for Perry Barr (Mr. Poole) referred to "sneers" about nationalisation. I am not in the least sneering about it; it is an accomplished fact so far as the railways are concerned, and one which I am not, nor so far as I am aware is anyone else on this side of the House, proposing to reverse. What matters today is the policy which is being carried out or prosecuted under nationalisation. That policy, as it is exemplified in this increase, threatens to burden the country in the long run with a costlier and less efficient form of transport than it need or could have-That is the real cause for concern.
  I would say to hon. Members opposite, who have the cause of nationalisation so much at heart, that if nationalisation is to vindicate itself then it has to show itself an instrument and agent of progress—I would go even so far as to say a trenchant

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  instrument of progress. But they themselves are threatening to bring their own achievement into considerable disrepute if they use nationalisation merely to protect an old and established industry from, shall I say, the buffets and the blows of what we all know to be, most unhappily, a very rude existence.
  7.5 p.m.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: I am sure that the House listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones), if only for the tolerant spirit in which he approached the problem; but I thought that he rather underrated our appreciation of the word "integration" or the process of integration, if he accepts its meaning as being defined in the words he used. The problem of road, rail and water transport is that there are grave anomalies because of the historical developments affecting these several units of industry. Apart from "skimming off the cream" and all those other aspects of the matter we feel that there is a proper function for each of these several units to perform, and that under a proper charges scheme and the scientific development of the industry, about which a great deal is already known by men who have spent their lifetime in the industry, integration does mean something really tangible.
  The hon. Member referred to redundancy and excess. I would not quarrel with him on that matter. As I have said previously, there is, in my view, speaking as a railwayman of some experience, some dead wood which has to be cut out of the railway system today. But I do not think that even that is the answer to the immediate problem before us. If there were any kind of cutting out in the hon. Member's own area, he would soon hear clamant demands from people who were to be affected. It would not be an easy matter and it would need careful examination. We should, however, be less than fair to the Commission if we thought for one moment that this process of examination was not going on week by week and month by month, and that something of that sort was not part of their policy.
  The hon. Member also referred to the fact that steel prices were not to advance. He said that it might seem strange in the circumstances, especially after what was said in evidence before the Consultative
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  Committee to the effect that it would mean an increase, and that we might be surprised at the industry's decision. We were indeed surprised because the steel industry has surely not only just discovered that production is going up, stepped up by modern methods, and that there was some prospect of reducing prices. The impression which some of us gained from reading the evidence of the steel industry before the Consultative Committee was that this increase would have to be passed on to the consumer and that it would be just too bad for the economy of the country, because steel enters so much into many of the commodities we use.
  Mr. Aubrey Jones: In so far as there is no reduction in price which would otherwise have occurred, this charge is being passed on, and there is thus a real cost to the country.
  Mr. Davies: My point is that no indication of that intention was given before the tribunal.
  Mr. Jones: Circumstances have changed. Production has gone up. The whole import programme this year as compared with last year has changed.
  Mr. Davies: It is a very rapid change, and it would have been better to have referred to the prospects when evidence was given before the Consultative Committee. All the industrialists who appeared before the Consultative Committee made out that this increase would have a very adverse effect on trade and industry. We heard from the farmers, the National Coal Board, chambers of trade throughout the country and from the steel people, who were most critical of the proposed increase. It would be amazing if private industry was subjected to this close scrutiny to which the affairs of the Transport Commission are being subjected today. Some of us would be glad to have that opportunity.
  Judging from the remarks which have been made today including those of the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) one would imagine that this matter of putting the railways on a proper basis was a new problem. In order to get the matter into proper perspective, I was reading some of the history of the railways. They were discussed in this House when we had the

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  Railways Bill of 1921 introduced by Sir Eric Geddes, who at that time was the Minister of Transport. He said on that occasion that before the 1914 war the value of railway shares was declining and the difficulty of raising capital was increasing. The position of the railways from the point of view of their organisation and their finance was the subject of grave consideration right down to the year before the war. He went on to say that we must have a healthy railway system in the country, and he asked who was to put it in a healthy position. He continued by saying that it had been said by many committees before that time that there was a point of view which would not be satisfied and that there were problems in the 1920 Railway Bill.
  We know that a compromise was ultimately reached. Mr. David Lloyd George headed the Coalition Government formed in 1919. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was then Secretary of State for the Colonies, and was reported in that Debate by Mr. Clynes to have said that an undertaking had been given that the Government coming in, would nationalise the railways. The Leader of the Opposition was said to have subscribed to that view, but, as we have been reminded since, he has changed his position; and he did so upon evidence adduced by several committees.
  For example, there was Mr. Wilson Fox who in 1913 showed that right from the very beginning of railways, through the course of the last century, this process of integration had gone on. It was in the nature of things that some branch lines and some of the over-lapping lines should have to be scrapped. Indeed, that was the process which went on until before the First World War. Reporting as chairman of a committee, Mr. Wilson Fox said that some took the view that only a single entity—in other words nationalisation—or one big system, was the real answer to the problem; and from that it would be difficult to dissent. As I have said, that was the view taken later by very distinguished statesmen in this country. But a compromise was reached under the 1920 Act where the 120 large railway companies were grouped under four main heads, with one or two subsidiaries.
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  We have had complaints today about the charges increases, but as the Minister has previously pointed out, if we compare the experience of the railways in this country after the First World War, and the charges increases which had to be imposed, we shall see that we are far below what they had to do in those days. I believe it was Sir Eric Geddes who said in that Debate that railway charges at that time were 112 per cent. over the prewar figure; and we know that they were faced with this problem of putting the railways on a better basis. What they decided to do, so far as I understand the position, was to take one of the best prewar years—in fact, the year 1913—and use it as a basis of standard revenue, and then make some kind of concession for capital improvement and so on. They hoped that by this reorganisation the railways would be put on a sound economic basis.
  In fact, they promised a period of prosperity and, if the revenue was exceeded, that 80 per cent. should go to the traders and 20 per cent. should be retained by the railway companies. They never reached that happy condition of things, and right through the inter-war years we know of the chequered career of the railways. Surely it is not a party matter. It is very simple to understand that, as a result of the condition in which they were, where, in the interests of the trade of this country and the community generally, very excessive restrictions had to be imposed, their position should be completely different under the impact of new competitors such as we have known in the century.
  We do not want something for the railways in order to bolster them up. We do not want any position of privilege in that sense, and I am opposed to the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) for a subsidy. I do not think a subsidy for an industry is a good thing at any time, whether it be for agriculture or fishing or whatever industry it may be, including the railway industry. It is a very dangerous thing to hand out State money to prop up an industry, so to speak. It does not encourage enterprise or organisation or economy.
  Mr. William Ross: In justice to my hon. Friend, I think he did suggest. not the actual handing over

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  of money, but the taking over of some commitments of the railways—for instance, the permanent way.
  Mr. Davies: Yes, he did make that qualification. But I also remember he said that unless something of this kind was done, we should have continuing commitments for increases, and he thought that was the way out. I rather suspect the proposal of a subsidy. I think that the railways, if they are given a chance to earn revenue on a proper competitive basis, will very soon find their level and do a good job of work. I think they are efficient. We have heard the right hon. and learned Gentleman acknowledge the considerable staff economies which have been made. Very great efforts have been made to improve conditions. Great savings have been made. In terms of the loading of wagons, in ton-miles and engine-miles, the record is very good. We cannot overlook the fact that railwaymen have been given a 44-hour week; they have had improved wages and all the rest of it. These things cannot be done without an increase in staff.
  When the right hon. and learned Gentleman talks about increased productivity, for example, surely he is overlooking the fact that a railway is a very different concern from some firms, such as engineering firms or pottery firms, where goods are produced by the dozen or the hundred. A railway signalman may have only five or a dozen trains passing over his section of the line every hour. He cannot do any more work in that time. The fact is that certain things on a railway have to be done whether the traffic is light or heavy. No matter how hard a man may work, it does not make any difference.
  I wish to ask the Opposition whether they agree that the railways should have a fair deal in the sense that they should be able to pay their way, provided they are satisfied that there is reasonable efficiency? Supposing a commission sat and reported that there was efficient and good management, would they still argue that the freights should not be raised? Because if that is their argument, and the case having been made, we should expect them to say that the increased charge should be passed on to the community. Otherwise, we must subsidise the railways. We cannot expect them to pay their way, and
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  to pay their staff if they are doing the job efficiently, and also to subsidise the rest of the country. If we did not give them a subsidy or a loan, they would have to pass on the burden and the trade of the country would have to bear it.
  I share the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Perry Bar (Mr. C. Poole). There is a great deal of exaggeration about the effect upon the prices of commodities of this increase of 16⅔ per cent. All things considered, this is a reasonable proposition, and I hope that the Minister will not entertain the idea of giving a subsidy to the railways, with a completely new conception that it does not matter what the railways cost to run, because they are so vital to the economy of the country that their charges must be kept low, and that we do not mind what losses they make. That seems to be the road to Bedlam, the road to nowhere.
  I would rather encourage them to work for their money. I want to give them a reasonable chance. I want anomalies of road transport to be removed. I hope that the Minister presses on with the business of what we call "integration." That is a hackneyed word. I hope that he presses on with the acquisition of these other undertakings, both on the road passenger side and on the goods side. I know that the process in the latter department is almost completed. When he has done that and he knows the size of the unit, can we not have some results in the way of a scheme of charges? Surely, we must not wait four or five years, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman hinted, before we get the scheme of charges. Surely, from the lead given in the "brown book," some interim scheme of charges, which would meet present-day needs, could be introduced. It could be adjusted in the course of time. We ought not to have to wait for five years. I hope that there will be no Division tonight, because the proposal of an increase of l6⅔ per cent. is very modest. I think that the Opposition would be unwise to divide.
  7.22 p.m.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: I find myself tonight, not for the first time, in a position of a little difficulty. For 30 years I have tried to serve the railways, and I lost my position when they were nationalised. But if one is in the railway business, no matter in what capacity, it

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  gets hold of one. A person attaches himself to it and its interests to the exclusion of almost everything else. I am the only hon. Member present of all those who were on the Standing Committee on the 1921 Act. I was concerned throughout the negotiations at that time. Later, we asked for what we called a "square deal." We had the support of the railway unions, and everybody else who was interested, in our efforts to try to get some sense out of the traffic problems of this country.
  We realised then that we had to do something if we were to maintain the railways on a paying basis. That something was to come to an understanding with the road services as soon as the petrol engine came in direct competition with the steam engine. Having tried to urge that, year in and year out, how can I find myself tonight in opposition to the railways? Therefore, I feel that I cannot vote in support of these Prayers tonight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It will not make any difference. I shall be the only one on my side.
  I want to say with all the sincerity that I can, that it is absolutely essential for this House to face the issue involved in the problem of British transport. It will not be solved by this 16⅔ per cent. This 16⅔ per cent. is merely a stop-gap which is necessary if we are to stop the rot and to build a new rates structure. The Conservative Party in the days before the war supported us when I was with the late Lord Ashfield and the late Mr. Pick and we asked that London Transport should have the support of this House so that we could remove the congestion in the streets and drive more tubes. It was obvious that the tubes could not do without the buses. The buses paid for the tubes. If we did not have the money from the buses we could not have underground transport and we could not move in London. There would be such congestion in the streets that it would be impossible for people to get to their work.
  The Conservative Party of those days faced that issue and backed up London Transport. I ask the Conservative Party today to spread their minds, to look a little wider than the London problem, and to apply themselves to the problem which faces the whole of England. It is the same problem. I wish to apologise to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) for not having been
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  in my place when he spoke. I was in the chair at an Estimates Committee meeting. Nothing else would have kept me away.
  One of the most extraordinary things to those who have been in railway administration for a good many years is the complex system which has grown up on the question of exceptional rates. I heard somebody pleading just now for a special rate for something—I forget what it was. There are any number of exceptional rates. Each one must be considered on its merits, and it is this House which has always stopped the railways from making progress in this direction. That is what I always used to think when we came here and pleaded for more power to get things done. With this exceptional rates structure, how many hon. Members realise that, in one ordinary week, no less than 65 per cent. in value of all the traffic on the railways came from exceptional rates and only 35 per cent. from standard rates? That is an extremely upside-down situation.
  What is the use of talking about a standard rate if it is in the minority all the time? We must appreciate that this flat rate is not very scientific, but is built up on all these exceptional rates. If one makes a graph, the line shoots up and down. Eighty per cent. of the heavy tonnage is carried at exceptional rates. I hope that the Minister will impress on the Transport Commission and the Railway Executives—not that I think that they need much pressure—that if we are to have a clean bill for British transport, which is vital to industry and without which we could not go on for one week, we must build up a new rates structure on a new basis.
  I do not know how many hon. Members realise that the whole of our rates basis is on tonnage and not bulk. When I was interested in the Wagon Lit Company, which was under British control, I found that what we lost most on were Paris hats and frocks. They took up an enormous amount of room, but weighed about as much as a few feathers. We had to carry them and they took up all the room which could have been used for heavier goods. That sort of nonsense must be stopped.
  This is a stop-gap arrangement, and I am sure that the Minister will carry on with the reorganisation. That will not be a short process. It can only be done

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  when this House realises that unless we work together with road transport in some way similar to what we have been asking for in the last 15 years the railways will never pay. We should not waste any time in talking about scrapping the railways. We shall never make our railways pay unless they are worked in with some form of road transport.
  What is the picture we have before us today? On the one hand, we have 55 per cent. and on the other 120 per cent., and we are trying to fill that gap with this increase of 16⅔ per cent. Of course, we cannot do it. Therefore, it is absolutely vital that we should do what the right hon. Gentleman has suggested. There should be a real attempt by all sections, and I hope all parties, to face this problem in a permanent way, because it is really a very serious problem.
  I was on the Board of the L.M.S. Railway, and, before that, I was on the board of the Caledonian Railway, and I therefore know something of traffic conditions in the North of Scotland. There are three lines there which are entirely uneconomic, but which are vitally important from the strategic point of view. In the 1914–18 war, we had to double the Highland Line and add another section to the West Highland line, and the amount of tonnage which the Admiralty passed over those two lines, to the Grand Fleet far away to the North was a great contribution to the Scottish engineers who built that line, never expecting it to have to stand that traffic. I suggest that somebody should go into the question of how far it is fair to describe these lines as part of an economic railway system when their real importance is that they are essential for defence. That point should be taken into consideration in connection with the strategic position of the country.
  Another hon. Member rightly suggested that we should shut down the branch lines, and I quite agree, although some of them must be kept open for a certain amount of mineral traffic under the "one engine under steam" system. I hope we shall be able to reduce costs in that way. On some of these branch lines, under the old regulations, trains had to stop at these stations, though nobody ever used them, and why that was allowed to continue under those old rules and regulations I could never understand. I remember that
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  in the old days we tried to put on a number of diesels—and I hope that more will be introduced now—but we must understand that we cannot get a decent engine to run on steel rails when it has been built to run on rubber tyres on a road. That is really quite impossible.
  A matter of importance that the House ought to consider is the question: How are we going to help our trade and industry and, at the same time, recognise that our railways are one of our greatest industries, which are capable of being of great help and assistance to all other industries?
  The last point I would like to make is one to which I attach some importance. What has this House said about the position of the railways now that they are nationalised? As I understand it, when we passed the Act, the problem was how to help the railways to make up the discrepancy between the present level of charges and the general price level. Who wants the difference to be made up by increasing the contribution to the pool from higher rates for road haulage of goods and road passenger fares? There has been some talk of offering a subsidy to the railways. That would be absolutely fatal, because it would reduce efficiency and remove, from top to bottom of the railway system, that essential urge and drive to make the business stand on its own feet. Let us therefore not think of the subsidy. Nor should we also forget the hidden subsidy—and it amounts to a hidden subsidy if we do not carry out the terms of the Act, which I think are quite clear, for it says:
  "The Commission must in any case so organise its undertaking as to form a self contained commercial corporation, responsible for paying its own way, and delegating the day to day administration of its various services to efficient and experienced managers."
  I hope the House will forgive me saying that, happily, most of the experienced managers who are now on the Railway Executive were appointed by the old railway boards, and some of us can take some pleasure because it appears that our good works are, to that extent, living after us. At that time, railway directors were supposed to be a very low type of humanity, from the way they were treated and talked about. Indeed, I rather feel today that I ought not to be here, and that all railway directors ought now to be dead. I think I am the last

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  survivor still here of the British railway boards.
  It is a fact that the present figure of the increase in charges is small, being only 16⅔ per cent., but that I believe that Sir Cyril Hurcomb and the members of the Commission are asking Parliament for only a temporary measure. I believe it will take six or seven years to get a new rate structure out, because when we passed the earlier Act it took from 1923 until 1928 before the rate structure was altered. We may do it much quicker if we sweep away all the exceptional rates and build up a new rate structure, based on bulk and tonnage and the contribution which can be made in the bulking of traffic to central points and distributing direct to customers' own doors by means of the roads.
  There is so much to do that it is a mistake to waste time over a small thing when the great objective of this House ought to be to see that our transport system under modern conditions is brought thoroughly up to date. We should remember that in Canada, where some hon. Members may have been over the Canadian Pacific and Canadian National systems, they have exactly the same problem, although their average haul is about 20 times greater than it is in this country. Our average haul is between 35 and 50 miles, whereas in Canada it is infinitely more than that, although they have the same problem of competition between road and rail.
  Mr. Boothby: On this question of the rate structure, is the hon. Baronet prepared to make concessions on long hauls in this country?
  Sir R. Glyn: I think the problem has to be considered in relation to two things—the nature of the traffic and the length of the haul, as well as, perhaps, the competitive power of the coastal services. A great deal of the fish traffic on the L.M.S. from Aberdeen to the South was affected by considerations of coast-wise shipping. There is also this business of not giving any undue preference, which is quite right, because we could not give it to one trader and deny it to others.
  In regard to fish and perishables, a great deal more can be done with refrigerated wagons, but infinitely more can be done by the complete revision of the marketing system, both in London and
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  elsewhere. It is so often the case that the railways deliver goods fresh to the towns, where they go stale in antiquated markets. I beg the Minister to consider these things and also to read the reports on the markets at Covent Garden, Billingsgate and Smithfield. There is an enormous amount to be done there, and I feel that this is perhaps one of the last occasions when one can make a contribution from one's own experience on the railways.
  Mr. Harrison: It would be interesting to some of us, at any rate, if the hon. Gentleman could say a few words about the amalgamations that took place on the railways between the two wars and the time that it took before any economies ensued.
  Sir R. Glyn: I have already taken far more time than I intended to do so I will only say this: during those years there was a similar problem, but, small as it was, it was due to the traditions, customs and feelings of different sections, which still continue.
  But the point is that we cannot build up with rapidity a rate structure unless we can underpin and build on a solid foundation. We were able to do that in 1921 because the competition on the road was not what it is today. What is absolutely essential is to stop the rot and to get on with the new wage structure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rate structure."] I meant, of course, to say rate structure. However, as far as the wage structure is concerned, I hope that will always remain in the hands of the very competent conciliation boards. We shall not get out of our difficulties by refusing to face facts. We must face the fact that the railways of this country will never pay by themselves no matter what Government is in office. An efficient railway system is not only vital in war, but highly essential in peace.
  7.41 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: If I may say so with respect, there was a breadth of outlook and a balance of judgment about the last speech which were strangely absent from other speeches which we have heard today from hon. Members above the Gangway. May I also say, without presumption, that my hon. Friends and I have arrived, broadly, at the same conclusion as the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn).

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  We should not under-estimate the seriousness of these increased freight charges on industry, on commerce, or on agriculture, particularly as they affect the rural life of the more remote parts of this country, such as Wales and Scotland. There is no doubt that these increases will be an additional burden on industry, though I wish all sections of industry would take the advice offered by an hon. Member above the Gangway who said that industry should not always automatically pass on to the consumer any increased costs, but that its first duty should rather be to find out whether it can economise in its own organisation before passing on higher costs. I am mindful of the fact that these increased charges will affect, in particular, the agricultural community because the last price review did not take into account the increased freight charges.
  This is not a new problem. The great period of success of the railways in this country was based on three things—the almost total absence of competition, cheap labour, and cheap coal. Those conditions can never return. On purely balance-sheet or mathematical considerations, the railways have made out a case for increased charges; it is based on the increasing cost of labour and materials, the fact that timber is up by 225 per cent., and coal by 125 per cent., and so forth, whereas freight charges are up only by 55 per cent. They point to the substantial increase of staff made necessary by the 44-hour week and by the arrears of maintenance. I think they are also entitled to point to the substantial claim for increased wages which is facing the railways. In my opinion, the wages of the lower grades of railway workers ought to be increased fairly soon. Those wages are far too low.
  The railways are in a bad way. They are cluttered up with masses of redundant and obsolete rolling stock, and their stations are often mere relics of a former age, sited close together because that was the range of a horse in the days when the railways were built. It has been a problem of successive Governments since 1921, and I have never heard it suggested that it is a problem of national ownership. Indeed, I think we might be in less difficulty today if the main line companies
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  had shown real foresight and imagination since 1921. One of the greatest problems today is to re-equip the railways, and, of course, the restriction on capital investment has a direct bearing on that problem.
  I often wonder how we could have used our surplus resources of manpower—the two million or more unemployed in the inter-war years—on a national plan of development, with the railways taking a prominent place. Had we used those resources properly, we might now be enjoying a wholly electrified railway system. The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) called for an inquiry into railway efficiency with a view, no doubt, to achieving immediate, overwhelming economies which would make this increase in charges unnecessary. But, in the years between the wars, we had all manner of inquiries—Royal Commissions, departmental committees, and road and rail conferences—most of them at the request of the railway companies, and in no instance was it ever suggested that the railways themselves should suffer an inquiry into their own efficiency. The emphasis was all the time on the greater restriction of road traffic.
  The real question to be faced is whether the railways have been and are being operated in a manner which produces the greatest degree of efficiency and, therefore, of economy, and whether there is a readily recognisable test for that measure of efficiency and economy. A great number of statistics have been quoted in this Debate. The most satisfactory test that I know is that of the annual number of net ton-miles moved for each engine hour expended. In 1938, that figure was 461 net ton-miles per engine hour. Mr. Frederick Smith, in a memorandum which he prepared before the war, calculated that an efficient railway system should be able to build up a figure of 15,000 net ton-miles per engine hour as a modest average for efficiency.
  The figure of net ton-miles per engine hour in the United States was far higher than ours. Mr. Smith's suggestion was that the railways should be used only for movements of full loads at high speeds, between centres fed and kept by road transport; that the feeder services of slow, half-loaded trains should be cut out, thereby eliminating much of the shunting

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  and doing away with many of the existing junctions and marshalling yards. He estimated that by this plan we should build up fairly quickly an average of 15,000 net ton-miles per engine hour. That plan would reduce the risk of loss and damage and simplify the whole of the complicated railway administration.
  It has been estimated that developments of that character would save annually about six million tons of coal and a very great amount of manpower. It has to be borne in mind that if manpower on the railways could be reduced by 10 per cent., one would effect an annual saving of about £20 million and make increased wages possible for the lower grades. The old main line companies failed to carry out a plan of that character. Mr. David Blee, who was chief goods manager of the Great Western Railway and who is now a member of the Railway Executive, stated that in January, 1947, the Great Western was just beginning to adopt such a plan, but apparently no other railway company was doing it.
  The British Transport Commission are beginning to improve the figures. In 1947, the net ton-miles per engine hour had been raised from 461 in 1938 to 516. In 1948, the figure had been increased yet further to 542, which I believe is the best figure yet attained in railway history. That figure is still very much below what can be achieved, but the first report of the British Transport Commission clearly states that a plan of that description is now being followed, though not much prominence is given to the statement. It is clear that the British Transport Commission, though cautiously, are taking first steps. The results are not spectacular but they are not negligible. It is clear they are reducing their staff. They have reduced it by 27,000 already. It must be remembered that, though it is essential to do this, it is a very delicate and human problem.
  On balance, therefore, I think this increase must be allowed to the railways, but only as a makeshift or an interim measure to avoid their deficit mounting up to unmanageable proportions. A charges scheme is on the way and I hope that charges scheme will not be merely the pricing of a system of operations which is already obsolete. I hope the Minister will tell the House that there is being prepared a really radical scheme
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  for the reform of railway operations as a whole. I hope he will say that though that cannot be implemented now, the plan of operations is being prepared. That is the only way to thorough economy. It will be possible to cost that plan, price each part of it and then offer a comprehensive system of rates and charges.
  If the Minister can assure us that that approach has been adopted by the Transport Commission, we are ready to support this increase. As the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon has said, we must cut away the rot and enable the British Transport Commission to build up on proper foundations. I do not think they can build on those firm foundations unless they are enabled to prevent the current deficit from mounting to unmanageable proportions.
  7.54 p.m.
  Mr. Proctor: The problem before us today is one of the most important that confronts the British people. It is right and proper that we should be discussing it in the House of Commons.
  One of the best things the Labour Government had done has been to pass the Act nationalising transport. That has given us this opportunity of discussing this very matter this evening. I was going to preface my remarks by deploring the fact that the late Lord Ashfield could not have been here to advise the Tory Party on how to deal with this problem. Instead of that, I can say how very pleased I was to listen to the speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn). I hope all Members of the Opposition who heard it will take especial heed of what he said, and will note not only the contents of the speech but the spirit in which it was delivered. I see the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) in his place; I hope that the speech of the hon. Baronet will have some material effect upon the speech he will deliver later in the evening.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Grossman) referred to what he described as the sheltered position of railway workers in pre-war days. I should like it to be clearly understood by the House that railwaymen were not in a sheltered position between the two wars. They endured vast redundancy and dismissals. Men were removed from

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  their homes and down-graded, and they suffered very considerable privations as a result of what happened between the two wars. The idea of "last in, first out" was introduced in the railway world at that time after a struggle. I remember that goods guards who had been in the service for 20 or 30 years received a week's notice to leave that industry without the opportunity of having another job in it. It was only the power of the N.U.R. and other trade unions that rectified that position and gave us the advantage we subsequently enjoyed of dismissals in accordance with seniority.
  We have given the British Transport Commission a very great task, and a very important one from the point of view of the British people. We should turn towards them not with opposition but with support. We should view very carefully what they have done, assess it and consider whether it is not due for praise and not for criticism. We have given them the job of unifying the great transport system of this country. It covers road, rail, canal and, to a certain extent, seaborne traffic where that has been handed over to it as a result of ownership by the old railway companies. They have taken over a couple of thousand businesses in this country, and have absorbed 40,000 vehicles. Both on the rail and road sides there is a considerable achievement, of which the Transport Commission, this House and the British people can be very proud indeed.
  There has been a considerable economy in staff on the railways. I think it amounts to practically 27,000 in the last two years. Allowing for the increase in traffic, that is a considerable economy indeed. I am not one of those who wish to see a savage redundancy brought about in the railway system and men dismissed in order to find a solution of our difficulties. We should approach this problem from the human point of view. We should recognise that in proposing to dismiss men from their jobs we would not be doing something to the ultimate advantage of the community. We should find a way of keeping people in their jobs at the present time.
  The problem facing the Transport Commission is one of very great difficulty mainly as a result of what happened in the years before the Commission took over. When one considers the immense
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  contribution British railwaymen and the British railways made towards the effort of this country during the war years, that the Exchequer benefited to the extent of £190 million from the war efforts of British railwaymen, I say that this problem should be dealt with in a way that is not rough and harsh. We should recognise that the nation owes to the railways and the railwaymen a duty to see they have fair play in these difficult times.
  I am not suggesting that we should gleefully accept this increase of 16⅔ per cent. No one in the House is anxious to increase charges, but I say that in comparison with the increases that have taken place in respect of other commodities, the increase in the railway charges is fairly modest. I suggest to all who are concerned with this increase that it may be possible to absorb a large amount of the increase by using profits and not pass it on to the general public in the form of extra charges. It was with pleasure that I noticed in the "Manchester Guardian" of 6th May a report to the effect that steel prices would not be raised for the present. That is a happy state of affairs from the point of view of increased rates in that industry.
  It is right and proper that we should be discussing increased charges here tonight. There would, however, be a galaxy of Prayers in the House if every increase in charges in private industry were made the subject of a Prayer. In those iron and steel commodities which British Railways themselves buy, excluding steel rails, there is an increase of 100 per cent. There is an increase of over 115 per cent. in steel rails. Rope, which the railways use quite a lot, has increased by 376 per cent.; timber, 225 per cent.; timber for sleepers, 344 per cent.; rubber, 123 per cent.; and canvas over 240 per cent. If we had the opportunity to subject to the careful scrutiny of the House all the extra charges that private industry has already put into operation, it would be a very good thing for the nation.
  The Tory Party have already suggested one or two ways out of the present situation. Their first suggestion was an increase in charges on difficult traffic. That was cancelled out by a suggestion from another Member who said that the charges on the difficult traffic should be decreased. The next suggestion was that there should be a small, expert inquiry.

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  which would reach a decision quickly. But we have not been told what is to happen in the meantime. Is the present situation to continue? If the present situation continues without any increased charges and the Transport Commission say that they cannot meet the charges that are imposed upon them in respect of the railway shareholders, what then? Must the Exchequer meet the charge, and will that be equivalent to a subsidy? The Opposition have not thought this matter out.
  I am always looking for unity in this matter of nationalised industries, and I should like to see these industries placed above party politics. I should certainly like to see the Tory Party take a more patriotic view of these great industries which we now have in our possession. I suggest that the Minister might consider an inquiry by a number of experts if he could get the Opposition to agree to abide by the decision of the experts. It would be interesting to see the hon Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) sitting as one of the experts on the committee. I should like such an expert committee to consider the problem of the "C" licences, and give their candid opinion as to what will be the effect on the nation of large masses of traffic being creamed off and worked by "C" licence holders and taken outside the purview of the transport industry, which I regard as its proper purview.
  Another thing I should like the expert committee to consider is the procedure that is to be adopted under the Transport Act in connection with the integration of road passenger transport. Perhaps they would suggest a more speedy and efficient procedure. If the Opposition would indicate that they would be prepared to accept the verdict of a small expert committee appointed by the Government, I would appeal to the Minister to appoint such a committee to get on with the job. As a nation we cannot continue in a position in which our railway men, especially the lower paid, are left to suffer because of the difficulties that have arisen as the result of past neglect. Many people say that we paid too much for the railways and that the compensation was too great.
  The present position of the railways was directly brought about by the action of past Governments in refusing to allow
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  the railways to develop as transport concerns and preventing them from integrating road and rail transport when there was an opportunity to do so. The Great Western Railway was one of the pioneers of road passenger transport. In the constituency of the hon. Member for Monmouth, as far back as 1902 the Great Western Railway was pioneering a bus service between Abergavenny and Brecon. But they were not allowed by law to carry traffic on the roads unless it went, first of all, to the railhead, then did a journey by rail and was then delivered by road. Had that prohibition not been applied to the railway companies in prewar days, an integrated system of transport would have grown up under private enterprise. What we have to do now is to get an integrated system of transport working as rapidly and as efficiently as possible.
  Judging the achievement of the Commission on every basis, such as ton-miles, the efficiency of engine working and everything else, one must admit that it is a remarkable achievement, but it is most important for an industrial nation to have a cheap and efficient system of transport and I would not reject the idea of a subsidy in order to bring that about. It is so valuable to have the free movement of traffic and people in an industrial community like ours that I would take every measure to make that possible. I am certain that the Labour Government have built on firm foundations, and I hope that we shall continue on these lines. I appeal to the Opposition to take a patriotic and a national view of this problem and to give the necessary support to the Government in order to make sure that the integration which is absolutely necessary shall be put into effect at an early date.
  8.10 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I found myself in complete agreement with the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor) when he said it was essential that there should be an efficient transport service in this country. He coupled that remark, however, with an appeal to my hon. Friends on these benches to approach the whole subject with a national outlook and in a patriotic manner. I submit to him and to the House that it is just because we wish to secure the most efficient transport service

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  possible that we are discussing tonight whether or not we should support the increase of 16⅔ per cent. in these charges.
  Do let us, first of all, consider the procedure under which we are discussing this question tonight. We are discussing it on a Prayer. We have to vote either for or against—there is no question of a reasoned Amendment; and we have not been satisfied by anything we have heard in this Debate, or by anything we have read in the Report of the Transport Tribunal, that the Government have considered every possible measure of proper economy, nor all constructive measures towards making a more efficient transport service, before asking for an increase in the freight rates of 16⅔ per cent.
  There are many other hon. Members who would like to speak in this Debate, so I will not go into detail all over again about the various recommendations which have been advanced from this side of the House. They have, however, fallen roughly into two categories. First of all—and this is, perhaps, a negative recommendation—we consider that the Transport Commission and the Railway Executive have not shown proper regard for the further economies which they could make. Secondly, on the positive side, we do not think they have revealed sufficient constructive proposals as to how they are to try to attract traffic back to the railways, particularly as far as that applies to passenger traffic.
  The hon. Member for Eccles said that he wished all private industry could be subjected to the same inquiry as that which takes place in the case of the nationalised industries. But I would point out to him that in private industry it is the shareholders who have to take the risk, whereas our responsibility in this House is for the taxpayers' money, and there are very few occasions upon which we can discuss the nationalised industries. That is why it is so important that we should consider tonight whether the Government are using the taxpayers' money to the best effect.
  I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Eccles that it is a great thing that the steel industry has been able to say that it will absorb the increased rates. It has said, however, that these rates will be absorbed because of increased output and because of increased demand. It is the
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  smaller industries, which are not in such a favourable position, which will find it very difficult indeed not to pass the prices on to the consumer, if they are not to run completely at a loss or to go bankrupt altogether.
  One has to consider not only the point of view of industry itself, however, but also the important subject of how we are to keep a balance between the productive efforts of this country, on the one hand, and making our railways pay, on the other hand. The Steel Federation said it was trying to keep these prices down because it realised that this was a grave and critical moment in the industrial life of this country, when we were literally fighting for our lives in the markets of the world. It is for that reason, the Federation said, that any extra, severe burden would cancel out any advantage which would go to the Railway Executive in this matter. As my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) said in his sincere speech, this is a stopgap measure and it is because of that that we ask the Government to consider this matter again. After all, on top of the considerations I have mentioned, I think we must consider not only the producer but also the consumer.
  Mr. Jack Jones: The Steel Federation have said that they have been able to absorb this extra charge of £6 million for freightage. Would the noble Lady agree that that is because of the fact that there was £6 million available which could have been claimed by the steel workers for increased wages and which, in fact, they did not claim?
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I think it is generally agreed that the steel industry is at the moment one of the most efficient in the country, and it is said that the reason the industry has been able to absorb the extra freight charges is because there is an increased demand for steel and because also, under very efficient conditions, there is an increase in output. I submit, and I hope to give the House particulars in a few moments, that there are certain industries which, because of disadvantages which are not their own fault in any way, cannot possibly continue to bear this increase without passing it on to the consumer.
  I was about to say, before I was interrupted, that we have also to consider the

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  point of view of the consumer in this country. In August, 1949, the cost-of-living index stood at 111. It has now been estimated by the London and Cambridge Economic Services that by the spring of 1950—and I suppose it is now the spring, although we do not think much of it as a result of this weather—that the cost-of-living index will have risen to 118. This is, therefore, just one more example of the inflationary trend which is the greatest challenge to the survival of this Government today. The cost of living is, in fact, the haunting anxiety of every home today.
  I should like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon, who has unfortunately left the Chamber, for the very valuable support he gave to those areas which are far from the main markets, and I shall not surprise the House, therefore, when I mention Scotland. I want to give a few examples of our problems and also a few suggestions on what could be done about them. We are, of course, very hard hit, because in nearly every case our main markets are in the South and we depend on long-distance hauls. The differential rates between South and North become worse the further we get away from the centre, and in this connection I think I speak for all of my hon. Friends who come from outlying districts of the United Kingdom.
  I will give just a few examples of our main industries. Take, for instance, the fishing industry. It has been calculated that the increase in freight charges—and this affects Aberdeen and the north-east of Scotland—will cost them £200,000 more a year. This is at a time when there is a falling consumer demand and when it is well known that industry as a whole is falling on very difficult economic times.
  We have the granite industry. It has been estimated that the 16⅔ per cent. will mean an increase of 15s. a ton on granite—again at a time when that industry is suffering from many economic difficulties, as was well shown the other day when the industry submitted a tender for the Manchester Ship Canal. Of course, their tender was much higher than, for instance, that from Scandinavia, to which the bulk of the contract was given. If we are to try to keep our industries in a competitive market at all, we have to keep a balance between
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  increased freight charges and what it is possible for the industries of this country to bear.
  I give one example from food distribution. If we take the transport of flour from Leith to Aberdeen, at 17s. 3d. a ton, the increased freight charge will amount to £2,000 a year. That will not be passed to the consumer but will be met by the Minister of Food. Here, then, is an example of a concealed subsidy because, although the Minister will be meeting the increase through the food subsidies, he will not pass it on in an open way to the consumer.
  Take, too, the question of coal. I find this a very remarkable affair. The railways have recently been pressing Aberdeen coal merchants to send far more of their coal by rail. Most of our coal is sea-borne, but recently the Government allocation has meant that coal received by consumers in Aberdeen included a larger quantity of Scotch coal, by comparison with English coal. It might be supposed that we should be very pleased to receive more coal from our own country, but I regret to say that this particular coal is inferior compared with that from the north of England. What we object to very much indeed is the fact that we are forced to take this coal by rail instead of by sea. When it was seaborne we had every facility for handling it. When it comes by rail it has to be manhandled. This means that inferior Scottish coal is going to cost the consumer more, because of the increased charges, than the better quality English coal.
  Sir Wavell Wakefield: Socialism in practice.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I think that those are enough examples of the kind of effect that these increased rates will have on some of our major industries in the North. Scotland, as has already been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon, has a very special problem. It has always been recognised that the railways of the North were uneconomical to run; and it has also been recognised that that expenditure and those losses in the North could be offset by the advantages in the economic areas—the advantages gained by the popular runs in the South. Of course, that was following the normal commercial practice of offsetting unremunerative parts of trade by the remunerative.

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  However, the question now is one of very high policy indeed. What exactly is the Government's position and attitude of mind regarding the farflung areas of these Islands? I suggest that they really have got to approach this matter from the angle of strategic necessity. I would suggest to the Minister that perhaps he could do a bit of lobbying in the Cabinet. Perhaps he could get on his side the Minister of Defence——
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: That would not help him.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: That would not help him, perhaps; but it might give him moral support——
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Immoral support.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: He could feel that he had, at any rate, got a Cabinet colleague behind him in this matter. If he concedes that we must keep those distant parts of the country open for strategic reasons, surely he must also concede that that is necessary to give reasonable rates that industry can bear.
  It has been said that we are to expect a new charges scheme for all the merchandise in this country. Under Section 76 of the Transport Act it was expected to take place within two years. Now we shall be very lucky, it seems, if we get it within 10 years of the Commission's life. However, I understand that there is also under consideration at this particular moment the question of the rate structure, and I would therefore urge the Minister to consider whether he could not on long hauls have a gradual percentage increase tapering with the mileage. This would, of course, mean exceptional rates, which must be based on loading capability, and have general regard, of course, to costs.
  In the north of Scotland we have a very urgent situation indeed. I say this with very great seriousness, because industry there, owing to geographical disadvantages, cannot possibly carry this enormous burden, coupled as it is with other difficulties, including, in particular, the general economic policy of the Government, which has ended in the devaluation of the £ sterling. Therefore, if the Minister is not to have every man's hand over the Border against him, he should really give urgent consideration to an
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  interim measure which would put industry in Scotland on equal terms with its competitors nearer the markets in the south.
  8.24 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: The noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), started by telling us that she would support the Prayer because the Transport Commission were not making any economies and not doing enough to build up their ability to balance their books; and then the whole trend of her speech was a special plea for dear old Scotland. The acceptance of that plea would not help the Commission to balance their books.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: As I have been directly challenged may I say that there was an economic reason for pleading for Scotland. If we have reasonable rates on the railways, we shall obviously attract more traffic to the railways, whereas if we put the rates up, we shall drive it away.
  Mr. Ross: I am not condemning the noble Lady for putting forward a special plea for Scotland, but I am trying to show how that would make the Commission's position worse. Surely it is not good enough to leave it like that. The noble Lady should have suggested to us how she or her party would have set about the matter. I regret that she did not do so.
  I wonder what would have happened, and what kind of speeches we should have had from the Opposition, today and in the Debate recently—indeed, at any time since we first heard of this suggested increase—if the Minister of Transport had come along and told us we were going to set up an independent committee to see just exactly what kind of economies could be made. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) would have come down to that Box and pounded it with all his gravity and profundity and talked in exactly the same terms as he did today—but with more justice if that had been the action of the Government.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman talked about "leisurely slithering into difficulties." That is exactly what the Opposition want us to do. They are so completely tied up by their past that they

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  can offer us nothing but the suggestion of the appointment of a committee of one or two supermen. We have one Member in the House who probably knows more about transport than the rest of us, who told us that he was satisfied with the present managers in British transport. He may have been a Conservative, but he was taking a natural and objective outlook. If he has confidence in those men who have been working in transport for 20 years, surely we can have confidence in them too. They know how to effect economies.
  I do not think it is good enough for the right hon. and learned Gentleman, or anyone of his status, to come along and, without suggesting any background for it, or any target it should aim at, set up a committee and say to it: "You are the Committee. Do not even worry about the fact that you are hoping some day to integrate road and rail as the best policy. Let us forget that; let us have some slashing and dramatic economies." Our railway system would indeed be in a tragic position if that happened. The magnitude of the economies which would be needed to meet this increase in charges amounting to £27 million, would be so great that it would be a tragedy to our railway system. To suggest that as an alternative policy to the inevitable one of rising charges, is a failure to face the facts as we know them. It cannot be offered as a reasonable alternative.
  The Opposition surely realise that this is no new problem, nor it is a British problem. We had all that in this country before the war. I will not go into that now, but it is the case today all over the world. Let us look at Canada. Only two days after we debated this subject in this House "The Times" carried a report of the year's results and working of the Canadian railways, in which it was said that there was a loss of 42 million dollars in 1949 compared with a loss of 33 million dollars in 1938. It is all very well saying they are nationalised. That would not be a bad argument if the right hon. and learned Gentleman were prepared to say, on behalf of the Opposition, "We are going to denationalise." After all, they have not the doubtful benefits of a Labour Government in Canada or all these vague and nebulous schemes of centralisation and functionalism. Yet there is that loss.
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  On the same day, and on the same page, "The Times" printed a report of the workings of the South African railways. They lost £8.7 million in 1949 and they raised the rates for freight and passenger traffic, with the exception of important foods, by 10 per cent. The reasons given for the position in Canada and in South Africa were exactly the same as those put forward by the British Transport Commission to the Consultative Committee the other day.
  Let us go to a non-nationalised company. On 26th April this year there appeared in "The Times" an interesting report of the United Railways of the Havana and Regla Warehouses, Ltd., and from it we discover that this private enterprise company, which runs the railways of Cuba, lost £800,000 last year. I am not interested in that, because I know the special difficulties and with many of them I sympathise, but I want to draw attention to a statement made by Mr. R. G. Mills, the president, which, I think, deserves the attention of this House and the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft). It shows how the people there look on this question of the railways. The president was talking about the difficulties of the company and hoping they would be fixed up, and went on to say:
  "These laws and methods were conceived many years ago before the development of gasoline and of the present system of modern roads and more rapid means of transport, both land and air. These new happenings have represented for the railway, not only in Cuba but in all other countries, a competition which has required a reconsideration of the economic possibilities of operation of the railways, and in many cases, because of the impossibility of that operation being borne by a small proportion of the community represented by the shareholders, the State has taken charge of such operation on the assumption that it constitutes a public service, the maintenance Of which must be borne by all the community, that is to say, the taxpayers."
  This company wants the railways to be nationalised and they are arguing the logic of railway nationalisation. In talking about the losses of that company, the manager cites exactly the same thing as is cited here—the cost of materials and labour—and there is not one hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House who can deny the fact that railway freights have gone up by 55 per cent. and that the cost of all other materials for the running and maintenance of the

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  railways have gone up by 120 per cent. There is no commercial firm in this country that would have stood for that without taking action by raising the prices of their commodities. It is only because our railways are tied hand and foot by regulations of this House that they have to go to the Consultative Committee and again to this House before they have the right to raise their freight charges.
  What happens? Just a week ago, hon. Gentlemen opposite were standing in their places and screaming about the inevitability of the rise in the cost of road traffic. There was no suggestion then of setting up committees to see if operators could absorb the increased cost. Immediately, a statement came from the road transport people suggesting that they should increase their charges by 10 per cent. I have not heard a complaint from the Opposition about that immediate reaction or a suggestion that a committee should be set up to see if the industry could absorb the cost. Surely if the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby suggests that by economies British railways can absorb an increase of 120 per cent., he should be the first to advise the people on behalf of whom his party has been speaking with such a unanimous voice recently—the Road Haulage Association—that they should have re-examined their position before seeking a 10 per cent. increase based upon a 33⅓ per cent. increase of only one of the materials that form part of their cost.
  I am disappointed with the efforts made by the Opposition in this matter. After hearing the speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) the Opposition should have decided not to continue to press the Prayer. It was the only objective speech on this subject that we have heard from the Opposition today. The whole motive of the Conservative Party today has been one of party expediency rather than of logic.
  I wonder what the railwaymen feel about this question? They are asking why they should be made to carry the burden of all the other private enterprise industries. The prices of those industries go up while the freight charges on which the wages of the railwaymen
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  depend—they hope for an increase as well—remain unaltered because a change would affect the cost of living. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about a concession for the fishing industry?"] I am not going to oppose that idea.
  There is one real alternative, and it is not right that it should be scoffed at on the ground that it will lead to inefficiency. The alternative is a subsidy. I base it, first, on the fact that this method was resorted to between 1919 and 1922 when subsidies to the tune of nearly £91 million were given to the railways. I base it, secondly, on the fact that £190 million was earned by the railways during the war and used by the Government. I claim that part of that money should have been retained to meet the post-war problems of the railways. Economies are being made today. The figure was £7 million last year. It is not right to say that it is only £2 million this year. The £7 million will not be spent again and it really represents £9 million this year. That is still going on.
  If the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South represented Kilmarnock, she would know how many men have been declared redundant in the railway workshops in Scotland. It is all very well to talk in vague terms about "slashing economies," but if we translate them into terms of men being thrown out of work, and reduced maintenance and development by the railways, we see that we are not only destroying the livelihood of these men but are also destroying the prospects of maintaining and modernising railway equipment. I would like the Government to examine once again the possibility of a transitional subsidy until we work on to the integration of the transport system.
  I heard an hon. Member talking about the closing of redundant lines and tracks. It is not so easy to do that when, in a year or two, we may require them for national defence purposes. If those tracks about which he talked as being redundant from 1913 to 1938 had been closed, what would have happened to this country during the war? There is a national defence element in railway maintenance, and for that additional reason I suggest that the Minister should pay some attention to the question of subsidies.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I was not surprised that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) found it more congenial during most of his speech to discuss His Majesty's Opposition rather than the subject matter of these Regulations. That choice showed proper discrimination but as I understood his argument, it was this, that whereas in his view His Majesty's Opposition proposed to do nothing he supported these Regulations because they involved doing something. As I understood the hon. Gentleman's reasoning, it was that something must be done—this is something; therefore, let us do it. If I may so describe it, this was the logical basis of his speech, that something must be done about the railways and that, as he could not think of anything else, the best thing to do was to raise the price to the consumer.
  Mr. Ross: But surely the hon. Gentleman will realise that I disagreed with what the Government were doing and suggested something entirely different?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The disagreement of the hon. Gentleman with what the Government are doing will be perhaps more conclusively demonstrated when he decides into which Division Lobby he goes, and in view of that interjection the House and the hon. Member's constituency will follow the way in which the hon. Member decides to vote with a perhaps rather unusual interest.
  Another wholly fallacious argument in his speech was that freights have gone up only 55 per cent., the average rise in prices since the war is greater than that, and therefore freights should rise. That is a most dangerous argument, because the hon. Member will at once appreciate that if every price below the average is raised to the average level, the average itself will rise and then there will be a further series of demands for further increases. Of all the arguments which have been adduced in favour of this rise in prices, the argument that other prices in totally different circumstances have risen to a greater degree is, with respect to the hon. Member, the most fallacious of the lot.
  Another curious observation was his reference to what he calls the £190 million which he said had been given by the Government to the railways during the
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  war—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—during a period in which, to use his own felicitous phrase, we did not enjoy the doubtful benefits of Labour rule. That reference, as I understand it, was to the sum of money paid by the Government to the railways under the war-time agreement for the operation of the whole railway system——
  Mr. Ross Mr. Ross rose——
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If the hon Gentleman will allow me to finish a sentence, I will happily give way to him. It is conceivable that, if that agreement had not been entered into, the vast volume of traffic which took place during the war would have enabled the railway companies to earn considerably larger sums of money. I think that view is generally conceded.
  Mr. Ross Mr. Ross rose——
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member must not be too excited. Therefore, it is a little ungenerous of him to refer to the £190 million given to the railways during the war.
  Mr. Ross: I see that the hon. Gentleman has completely misunderstood what I said. I did not refer to the guaranteed rent of £43 million and if the hon. Gentleman had been listening—probably he did not follow me due to my inability properly to put the point—he would know that when the Government had control of the railways over and above that guaranteed £43 million, the profit which they retained for themselves and for the use of the Treasury was £190 million.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I see that the hon. Member is in agreement with me——
  Mr. Ross Mr. Ross indicated dissent.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:—a fact which, for the first time, raises doubts of the Tightness of my own convictions. The truth of the matter, now that it appears that both the hon. Member and I are in agreement, is that no present was made to the railways during the war, that on the contrary financial sacrifices were imposed on them, and that therefore they were denied the opportunity which they would otherwise have had to earn considerably larger sums. I do not think that is seriously disputed by anyone who has seriously studied the problem. Therefore,

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  the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and I are in agreement that no charity was done to the railways during the war; that, on the contrary, they were denied opportunities of earning what they could have earned. To suggest that the money was paid as a matter of charity——
  Mr. John Hynd Mr. John Hynd (Sheffield, Attercliffe) rose——
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am in the middle of a sentence. The fact remains that there was no question of the railways having been so generously treated that money was given to them which could not have been used for certain other purposes. That, I understand, was the argument of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock, and it was completely unsound.
  Mr. Hynd: The hon. Member has just said that the railway companies made financial sacrifices during the war and that they could have earned very much more but for Government restraint. The hon. Member knows very well, surely, that the amounts paid to the railways during the war for their operations were greater than the railways had earned at any time in many years before the war, and that the only means by which they could have earned more would have been to put up their rates and to hold the country to ransom in the midst of a war.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is true that the sums paid under the agreement were in excess of a good many pre-war years; so, of course, was the traffic. Had the traffic which was carried during the war been paid for at the rate which was paid before the war, the earnings would have been considerably in excess of £43 million. The hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) knows that perfectly well. He has failed also to appreciate another matter. The increased traffic on which the railways were not allowed to earn as much as that traffic would have earned under normal conditions involved, of course, increased wear and tear and increased depreciation. Therefore, the railways did, as a matter of historical fact, lose something which they could have obtained during the war.
  Mr. Poole Mr. Poole rose——
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member has intervened, I think, in almost every speech from this side of the House
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  and I cannot give way to him. We can now get to the point that the railways did not make a good thing out of the war, which was the innuendo behind the speech from below the Gangway.
  There is one other matter to which I would refer, and I am sorry that the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) is not now in his place. I listened, as did all hon. Members, very carefully to what he said and I was struck by what seemed to me to be the wrong interpretation which he put upon the attitude of those of his friends who disagree with him on this matter. He said, "I cannot find myself in opposition to the railways." Nobody finds himself in opposition to the railways. Certain hon. Members find themselves in opposition to the decision of the Minister. Some of them take the view that the national interest at this time of all times, is not served by the Minister's acceptance of the proposal put forward by the railways to the Transport Tribunal; but to suggest that because one differs from the hon. Baronet on that point one is therefore opposed to the railways is, it seems to me, very unfair to those hon. Members who have to decide—and it is, after all, for this House to decide—whether or not this increase should go through.
  On that point, I was struck by what was said by the hon. Member for Perry Barr (Mr. Poole) to the effect that the experts, the accountants and the Tribunal had recommended this increase and that, therefore, it was wrong for hon. Members to oppose it.
  Mr. Harrison: Would the hon. Member agree that what the hon. Baronet meant, when he said that he was not opposed to the railways, was that he was not opposed to the proposed increase in fares? I listened very carefully to every word of the hon. Baronet, and the interpretation which the hon. Member has applied to his speech is quite unfair.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Baronet will no doubt be able to decide when he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT whether the most chivalrous effort of the hon. Member to assist him has resulted in an accurate reproduction of his argument. To my mind, the statement of the hon. Baronet was, as his statements always are, perfectly clear, whereas, since the hon. Member for Nottingham, East

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  (Mr. Harrison) has applied his own gloss it lacks the clarity of the original.
  Mr. Harrison: The hon. Member will see in HANSARD tomorrow.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member is good enough to say that I shall see tomorrow. I shall read with very great interest the gallant efforts of the Official Reporters to report the hon. Member's intervention.
  I was saying, when the hon. Member intervened, that this House cannot hide itself behind the experts and behind the Tribunal. The experts are concerned with the limited issue of the amounts which were necessary in their view to make easier the position of the railways. But this House is concerned not merely with the railways—although, of course, it is concerned with them. It is concerned with the impact of the whole of this affair on the national economy as a whole. I hope that when the Minister replies he will be able to do something to allay the disquiet as to that aspect of the matter. I have reason to believe that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what the impact of these increases is upon the national economy. When he spoke on the British Transport Commission Bill on 30th March, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "The Government are giving full consideration to the views that have been expressed both in this House and by the representatives of traders, and are measuring the reactions or repercussions of any increased charges of that character."
  If the Government have been studying that, it seems right that they should give to this House, before it comes to its decision, the result of those inquiries. It would seem essential that those inquiries should include a perfectly clear statement of what should be the increase in the cost of the major British exports as a result of this change and, equally, that they should include the result of the Government's researches into what will be the effect on the cost of living. I hope that the investigation into the impact on the cost of living will be a little more profound than that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer before his historic broadcast on 18th September last.
  The principle which the Minister has so far put forward is one which I challenge. The principle, apparently, is that if a nationalised monopoly as at present organised and run cannot make
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  itself pay at its present level of charges, that is an argument in favour of its using its monopoly powers to raise those charges to the consumer. The right hon. Gentleman stated that quite frankly, as reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Debate to which I have made reference. He said:
  "In the whole of my business experience"—
  and the House knows he is associated with a very large trading organisation—
  "I do not know of any section of industry or of any undertaking where, as in this case, owing to the history of the industry and the conditions that Parliament has imposed on it, the management have to take into consideration increased prices of commodities without being accorded equal facilities to adjust their own prices."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1950; Vol. 473, c. 685–6.]
  That seems a clear statement that where an organisation finds prices raised against it, that is a conclusive argument for raising its own prices.
  Be that a good or a toad doctrine, it is not the doctrine which the Government have put forward. It is the exact converse of the appeals made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to private industry and the exact converse of the policy applied by the price control mechanisms of the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Agriculture. Are we to understand that that is now reversed and that where, as a result of these changes the costs of industry rise, in every case where prices are controlled by the Government proportionate increases will be allowed by the (President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Supply, the Minister of Agriculture and the rest? If that is so, it is a change in Government policy of such profound significance that we should be told it, not by implication, but expressly. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether or not he still adheres to that doctrine of which he was apparently an exponent when the British Transport Commission Bill was before the House. If that doctrine is applied, it is the end of the Government's policy of price restraint and equally of the Government's policy of the wage freeze, and we are straight on the road to uncontrolled inflation.
  The only other matter to which I wish to refer is the fact that we have so far had from the Government absolutely no indication of whether they are prepared to do anything in the immediate future, or are prepared to secure that the Trans-

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  port Commission do something in the immediate future, to prevent this House this time next year being presented with a precisely similar request. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) has already pointed out that this proposed increase will not even meet the anticipated deficit for the current year, and when allowance is made, as it must be, for the loss of traffic to the roads caused by the increase of prices on the railways, it is Obvious that if we proceed as we are now invited to proceed, Debates of this sort—and it is for you, Mr. Speaker, a gloomy thought—will be an annual occurrence. That will be so because unless something far more fundamental is done, and done quickly, the deficit will mount, and if the Government's only expedient is increased charges further increases will have to be sought again next year.
  Before coming to a decision the House is surely entitled to be told whether the Government intend to do something, not in the six or seven years to which reference has been made as being necessary to produce an integrated rates system, but in the next year or two. We should surely be told that. I hope, and here I may not carry all my hon. Friends with me, that it will not be regarded as impossible to consider the closing down of unprofitable railway lines. We all know that there are lines in this country which do not pay their way. Although people in the localities through which they run might regret their closing, I am inclined to think they would regret even more having to pay increased fares both on the railways to keep them going, and on the buses, imposed with a view to keeping them off the buses, which is apparently the aim of the right hon. Gentleman.
  I hope that we shall have some information on this problem of strategic lines to which easy reference has been made by some hon. Members. The War Office is always accused of out-of-date strategic ideas, but it has no monopoly in that respect. When we hear Members saying that we have to keep railway lines in certain parts of the country going to supply the Grand Fleet at Scapa, it is necessary to recall that there is not now any Grand Fleet. When that strategic doctrine was in force, in the 1914–18 war, there were 30 battleships, four or five squadrons of cruisers and a hundred destroyers at Scapa
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  Flow. No one believes that we are likely to have a Fleet of that size in any period we can contemplate. If financial sacrifice is to be imposed on the community in deference to strategic ideas it is necessary that we should have an assurance that those ideas have recently been put to the Chiefs of Staff and have received their assent. Otherwise there is a danger that we shall go on imposing burdens of the community in deference to strategic ideas which were valid in their day but which have now lost their validity
  It one reads the statement published in the OFFICIAL REPORT as an annexe to the right hon. Gentleman's statement on 27th April, it will be seen that there is placed first of all in it, as one of the reasons for the problem which has arisen, the 44-hour week. I fully appreciate the fact that that 44-hour week is regarded, and rightly so, as an achievement by those who have succeeded in negotiating it. But it does fall seriously to be contemplated whether railwaymen or anyone else are, in the circumstances of the country, entitled to take pride in a reduction of hours. It is a fact that this very proposal which we are discussing will raise the cost of living to everybody in the country, railwaymen included.
  I wonder whether, it the railwaymen had it put squarely to them that that was one of the factors upon which apparently, hon. Members opposite, the Transport Commission and the right hon. Gentleman found the necessity for increased railway charges, they would regard the 44-hour week itself as sacred? I have a great deal of sympathy with what has been said from the benches opposite about the rate of pay of the more poorly-paid railway workers. I am speaking for myself only when I say I think those rates of pay should have a claim to far greater attention than the 44-hour week. I think a reduction in hours definitely comes behind the raising of wages to a reasonable level. When we have the fact, which is now clearly stated, that it is these reductions in the working week which have contributed to the situation. I think it is up to the right hon. Gentleman and the Railway Executive to consider whether that reduced working week should be sustained.
  What is important to recall is that the Government, whether they like it or not. are, by these Regulations, doing precisely what in their Economic Survey they say

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  should not be done. If hon. Members will look at the conclusions of the Government in this year's Economic Survey, they will see very clearly set out, and reiterated, the fact that if costs in this country rise, the temporary benefits to be obtained from devaluation will be lost. We know now that the cost of coal, the basic raw material of all, and other raw materials of British industry, are to be raised by these regulations. In the face of that warning given in the Economic Survey as to the consequences, no hon. Member can face that rise with any light heart. The responsibility lies upon this House as to whether a development which the Government have stated would be disastrous to this nation shall be put into effect by the Government Whips driving their Members into the Division Lobby.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. Champion: Usually, I like to listen to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). He always comes out of his corner fighting. I think he should enter the ring with the kind of announcement on his back that we see on the backs of prize fighters—that he is "Bouncing Boyd, the Kingston Kid." I must concede it to him that he is a fighter, but I think he really ought to address himself to the transport problems facing the nation at this time. Rather than using a few glib phrases, he should give due consideration to the splendid speech made by the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn).
  The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames cannot dismiss what was said by the hon. Member for Abingdon by lifting out of its context the simple phrase which his hon. Friend used, that he "could not find himself in opposition to the railways." The making of a pure debating point on that seems to me to be unworthy of the hon. Member. The hon. Member for Abingdon has a deep knowledge of the whole of the transport problems of the country. For a long time he sat upon the directors' side of the table in the railway industry. I used to sit in opposition to him on the other side of the table as a signalman, and a member of a great trade union. Perhaps I might add that if all the directors in the old days had reached the standard of the hon. Member for Abingdon in his knowledge of the undertaking and his sympathetic
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  approach to railway and transport matters, I doubt whether nationalisation would have been such a necessity as it became.
  The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames did not advance a single constructive point about this situation in which we now find ourselves. To prepare myself for this Debate, I looked up some of the past speeches made in the House on transport. I paid particular attention to the speeches of the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames. In one of them he made what I should imagine he regarded as three constructive points. First, he said that we should cut staff, which always seems to be a nice, easy sort of point to make in Debates of this kind. But he did not go on to show where reductions in staff can be made without either affecting efficiency or doing what he suggests today—increasing the hours of labour of the men employed in the industry. In that connection, I ask him whether it is fair that the railwaymen should bear the brunt of the increase in hours, while the rest of industry goes free.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As the hon. Gentleman has been good enough to refer to me, I will give him my view. In the present state of British industry, any reduction of hours which does not at least maintain output is not justifiable in any section of industry.
  Mr. Champion: If the hon. Gentleman spreads his argument over the whole of industry, I have no fault to find, provided that the change is generally accepted and recognised by the trade unions as being the right thing to do in the circumstances. I strongly object to the inference in many speeches by hon. Gentlemen opposite that the full weight of this burden must fall upon transport workers. That has run through their speeches during the whole of this Debate.
  In his criticisms, it seemed to me that the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames failed completely to realise that there had been a severe cut in staff. It has been reduced by 27,000 in a year, and economies are continuing. It is the object of the Transport Commission to ensure that we do not waste labour in any way, but the hon. Gentleman must realise that there has also been an increase in holidays. There also falls upon the staff the duty of making up many of the arrears

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  of maintenance caused by the war. Those are the facts which we must consider. Indeed, they are important items from the transport and the national point of view
  The next serious point that he seemed to make in his last speech was that we ought to engender old loyalties and enthusiasms. He said that he had a friend who looked at the railway system of today and compared it with very many years ago and said that those loyalties and enthusiasms had completely disappeared All I can suggest is that his friend must have looked at the old railway situation through the rose-coloured spectacles with which old age looks back upon comparative youth.
  I have spent most of my life in the railway industry. I can remember some evidences of loyalty, and so on. I can remember, too, very much hatred and bitterness arising from the conditions under which railway men worked. It is quite wrong to say that there always existed the loyalty and enthusiasm of which he talked. Present conditions will make for the creation of greater loyalty and real enthusiasm; but I do not expect that joint consultation, which is gradually coming into operation, will remove immediately all the old difficulties. It is not a sort of abracadabra with which we can immediately solve the problems of staff relationship.
  The other point the hon. Member made in his last speech was that we must look out for new sources of revenue and hold old sources Those were the three constructive suggestions that he made in our last Debate. I ask anyone who knows anything at all about transport whether it is likely that these three suggestions will solve the problems which face the railways today. Of course they will not. Will they wipe out the £30 million which is the deficit which must be taken into consideration? Of course they will not
  Having said that, I think that I ought to say that I agree with much that has been said on both sides of the House to the effect that this rise in the cost of transport, reflecting as it must a rise in the cost of production, is a serious matter I do not close my eyes to that. I should very much like to have a situation created in which a rise of this sort would not be necessary. But, again, I must make it clear that the burden of rises in costs of production, or of the prevention of rises
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  in costs of production, must not fall wholly upon the transport workers. It would be quite wrong if we attempted to do anything of that sort. Most of the speeches from hon. Members opposite seem to me rather to expect transport to subsidise production, and to suggest that we ought to keep down the cost of transport so that production can go on without costs rising. I say that if we are to subsidise anything, we should subsidise directly the industry that is in need of a subsidy, rather than by doing it through the indirect method of subsidy via transport.
  A question which we have to decide is whether the railways are essential to our national life at this time. If they are, it is quite clear that they must have sufficient income to enable them to pay their way, to be efficient and to provide a reasonable standard of living for the people engaged in the industry. That is not the case at present. The railwaymen today are not in receipt of a reasonable standard of living, and. in this connection, we have to compare their pay with the amounts that are being paid in outside industry.
  It is right that we should pay tribute to the railwaymen for the restraint which they have displayed both during and since the war. They have imposed on themselves a remarkable restraint which they have displayed both would have been quite possible for the railwaymen, using their tremendous power, to have forced more out of our economy than they are, in fact, receiving. Even under present conditions, the restraint which they are exercising is, perhaps, greater than it ought to be in the circumstances, but it arises from the fact that they do not want to push up transport costs unnecessarily or to too high a point. There must, eventually, be an end to that, and the railwaymen will have to force their claims upon the transport industry and expect to find them being met.
  If, as some hon. Members opposite seem to suggest, our railways are obsolete, we really ought to set about the job of ensuring that they are being replaced by some other and efficient form of transport. Personally, I do not believe that that is the case; indeed, I am positive that it is not. That is my reply to those who have suggested it, and I am

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  looking particularly at the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) who suggested it, or hinted at it, throughout the whole of his speech in our last Debate. If we are to do this, we must at least recognise the expenditure which will be involved in the task—the amount of money to be spent on new roads, money paid in policing, signalling and the maintenance of roads, the cost of fuel in dollars and the exhaustion of our own oil supplies. If we did drive all our traffic on to the roads, we should be pushing 1,000 million passengers on to the roads each year, about two-thirds of the national transport and almost all the heavy goods traffic associated with our primary industries. All this would be forced on to the roads, and it is stupid for any hon. Member to suggest that it would be a possibility in today's conditions.
  We have to recognise the very simple fact that our industrial regime and much of Britain's prosperity was based on a transport system rate structure which carried valuable commodities at high rates, and low-grade commodities at very low rates. The low-grade commodities are, in the main, those essential to our basic industries—a simple fact and an important one, because the very fact that it is the valuable commodities that are highly rated enabled road transport to make the profits which it did in the past, and, indeed, to expand. Were it not for that rating system, it would have been impossible for road transport to have expanded as it did during the inter-war years, and since 1945.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) said that this problem was not only a British problem, and, of course, he was right. Just about 12 months ago today I found myself standing on a railway station in the U.S.A.—the station of Providence—and I read there something which took me back to the "Square Deal" days of the British railways. It read thus:
  "Uncle Sam's Railways. To keep them up to the nation's needs, the railways should be permitted to earn not less than 6 per cent. (Signed) Association of American Rail Roads."
  We see from that, that the same kind of problem is showing itself in America as showed itself in this country, and that the American railways are trying to get
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  over it in the same way as did the British railways in the "Square Deal" and "Fair Play for the Railways" days. Apparently, they are having the same sort of success as those in this country had under private enterprise before the war. I notice that no one in America seems to be talking about setting up a committee to examine the efficiency of the railways, apparently because it is thought that as they are still being run by the capitalists they must be quite efficient, and that therefore there is no necessity for setting up such a committee.
  I wish to close by touching on a few points made by Opposition speakers during the Transport Debate on 15th March last, and I will refer straight away to the suggestion made by the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe). On that occasion he ended his speech with these words:
  "I submit that our proposal for the railways of de-centralisation and change from the strait-waistcoat of the present arrangements is the only way."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th March, 1950; Vol. 472, c. 1202.]
  In that, he was supported by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorney-croft). It seems to me that that is one of the easiest suggestions to make. If something is centralised, then suggest as the remedy decentralising it; if it is decentralised, suggest that the remedy is to centralise it. It is a sort of "Heads I win; tails you lose" argument. That is an easy suggestion for the Opposition to make.
  What are the facts? They are that when the railways were decentralised, we had 121 separate systems in the country. That situation was found to be uneconomic, so what did the party opposite do? They set about the job of reducing those 121 railways to four separate groups. I think that the hon. Member for Abingdon would be forced to admit that arising from that merging of the 121 systems into four groups, tremendous economies were made. Therefore, we see quite clearly that this call for decentralisation—I do not quite know what they do suggest—for the increasing of the number of regions from six to eight, or something of that sort, will not solve the problem which is a problem common to transport the world over.
  The last points I want to make refer to the speech of the noble Lord

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  the Member for Dorset, South in the Debate on 30th March. He gave us a few constructive criticisms. The first was that we should cut out the third man on the engine. My only reply to that is that before he makes that sort of statement, the noble Lord ought to ascertain the facts and go to some pains to get them. There really is no third man on the engine.
  He went on to say that the railways ought to improve their services. If he will look at his speech he will see that in the previous paragraph he said:
  "It is very pleasant to travel by rail today. There is a considerable amount of service, some of it extremely redundant."
  Having said that he went on to say that we ought to improve the services. The final suggestion he made was that we ought to cut out the inspectors who
  "walk up and down the corridors to look at the tickets.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1950; Vol. 473, c. 677.]
  I should imagine that is based upon the observation of someone who has merely looked at this from inside a first-class carriage.
  Mr. Poole: Somebody who did not have a ticket, I should think. [Laughter.]
  Mr. Champion: I hope that in the laughter HANSARD has not missed that one. What my hon. Friend said was that the noble Lord had looked at this from the point of view of someone who had not a ticket. The noble Lord ought to realise what would happen if the essential ticket checks were taken off.
  The criticisms made by the Opposition do not take away the fact that there is a great railway problem. I believe that, in the circumstances, the Minister was right in presenting to the House these Regulations and Orders and that the railways should have a chance of earning a greater revenue. But the Transport Commission and the Railway Executive must really face the fact that theirs must be a continuing job of seeking greater efficiency.
  9.24 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: It may be for the convenience of the House if, at this stage in our proceedings, I rise to summarise the arguments and, I think, the very formidable case which
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  can be made against these proposals to increase the railway rates by 16⅔ per cent. I should like to begin on as non-controversial a note as possible, namely, by saying that I feel the Leader of the House was wise in agreeing to give virtually a full day to the discussion of this subject. At one moment, when the right hon. Gentleman first announced it in the House, it looked as though the whole discussion was going to be packed into a couple of hours' discussion of a Prayer late at night. If I do not agree with everything that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion), has just said, I agree that the subject that we are discussing is too important to be dealt with in that way. It deserves the full discussion it has received in the House of Commons this afternoon.
  May I, since I am winding up for the Opposition, reply to one or two of the points that have been made in the Debate? Incidentally, I would rather refer to the Debate we have had today than to the Debate that we had last week. 'Hit hon. Member for Perry Barr (Mr. Poole) asked us whether we want the nationalised railways to succeed. I do not believe there is an hon. Member in any quarter of the House who does not want the nationalised railways to succeed. So far as I know, nobody has proposed to de-nationalise them. Certainly, as far as this country is concerned, we cannot go on as a great trading and industrial nation unless we have a prosperous railway industry.
  The hon. Member went on to say that the passenger side did not enter into this question at all. I thought that was a most astonishing suggestion. It seems to me that the passenger side of this industry, which after all contributes one-third of the gross revenue, cannot be just dismissed in a sentence of that kind, and I certainly intend to refer to it in the course of my remarks. He then proceeded to produce some extraordinary figures, and suggested that during the war the railways were specially favoured because freights were carried at 36s. 2d. a ton and that now the rate is 15s. 4d. Those figures are entirely misleading. Whatever the rate was during the war, it was increased by 24 per cent. in October, 1947, and in any event the payment during the war was based upon a revenue basis of £43 million a year, on which the

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  Government and the Treasury made a profit—I am not complaining of it—of approximately £100 million.
  The hon. Members for Swansea, West (Mr. P. Morris) and Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Monslow) returned to an argument which is often adduced by hon. Members opposite, namely, that they paid too much for the railways. Well, they chose the figure. It is really a little late in the day to come here and say, "If we had only thought of it earlier we would have paid much less." How much less? It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen to say, "We would have cut down on this compensation." They would have out a lot of people in the process. Not all the railway shareholders are wealthy. The disestablished Church of Wales had its income cut by £22,000 as a result of that compensation. How much further would hon. Members opposite have cut the poor parsons? I think they ought to tell us before they come along and make these complaints?
  That sort of thing may be all right on a platform in the country, but it is a little too much to say that the railways are not succeeding because of the enormous sums which are being paid to the ex-railway shareholders. These sums are not being paid to the ex-railway shareholders. They are being paid to people who hold British Railway Stock and who probably never held a railway share under the private companies in their lives. Is it suggested that the Government should stop paying interest on that stock or should scale it down? Some of the suggestions which hon. Members opposite make about the way we should deal with Government securities are a little frightening. I am a little tired of this argument that the only way to make a nationalised industry pay is on the basis that all the assets are given to you to start with. That is not the way private business is carried on. Hon. Members who advocate nationalisation ought to have a little more faith in the system which they support.
  We then heard the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). May I say how much we enjoyed seeing him intervene in a transport Debate? I do not think we have heard him in one before. He was referred to the other day as a "flying saucer." It may be that this stirred his interest in matters of trans-
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  portation. Be that as it may, he made a quite interesting contribution. I am afraid he has taken some of his information upon transport from the Socialist "Hints to Speakers" during the last election. May I make a few corrections to his speech? I wish he would get away from the idea that the railways were subsidised during the war. It is a very bad point to make and there is such an easy answer to it, as I have already shown. So far from paying a subsidy, they contributed to the Exchequer to the tune of £100 million. The argument was unworthy even of the hon. Member for Coventry, East.
  The hon. Gentleman then went on to make the point which was raised during the election by the Lord President of the Council: he twitted us with wanting to take away the road side of the industry, the one profitable thing they had. That is a most extraordinary admission—this idea that they will have to hold on to some profitable industry in order to pay the losses on the railways. That is not the case which was put forward for the Transport Act in 1947. Hon. Gentlemen opposite did not warn the country then that the real reason they wanted this road haulage was that without its profits they could not possibly sustain the losses which would be incurred.
  The hon. Member also complained about the number of "C" licences which, he said, were taken out in order to reduce the traffic available to the nationalised transport. That is a most peculiar argument. The idea that people take out "C" licences in order to deny traffic, is really a most astonishing view of the practice in industry. The fact is that they take out "C" licences because it happens to be a good deal cheaper to do so, even with an empty back load, than to try to run traffic about in the right hon. Gentleman's monopoly.
  His next point—and this, I must say, must have been a little embarrassing—was that any reasonable person would see that the reason the Chancellor put up the Petrol Duty was to get what he called a balance between road and rail. That may be a very good argument, but it is hardly one which would appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer or to the Financial Secretary of the Treasury, who have denied that the increase in the Purchase Tax on commercial vehicles and

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  the increase in the Petrol Duty have anything whatever to do with road and rail policy.
  The final point which the hon. Gentleman made was that he wanted a subsidy. In his argument, I thought he was dangerously near to going over into an attack upon the farming industry, which would hardly appeal to the Government Front Bench, and I saw some rather worried faces on the Government Front Bench He treated all consumer subsidies as direct subsidies to agriculture and fell into many other mistakes of that character. At any rate, he did one thing—he wholeheartedly opposed the proposal being put forward by the Government. Some of my hon. Friends said they doubted whether the hon. Gentleman's sincerity was such that he would vote against the proposal he had so dramatically attacked, but I hope to disillusion them and I feel confident we shall find him in the Lobby with us tonight.
  The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mr. Edward Davies) said he thought a great deal of exaggeration had taken place about the effect of increasing the rates by 16⅔ per cent. I do not think the effect has been exaggerated. After all, another half crown a ton on domestic coal is not exactly a minor fact, especially for many poor people who already find it pretty hard to buy the coal. There is another £2 million on gas. Will the gas industry pass it direct to the consumer? I am sure the right hon. Gentleman ought to be able to answer that. There are another £1¾ million on electricity. How will that be carried? I am sure these are things we ought to be told. We know the farming industry has to carry £2 million and, so far as that deals with commodities coming into the farms, the farmers will have to carry it themselves. We know that the steel industry have suffered an increased cost of 10s. a ton and that, vastly to their credit, they are carrying it themselves. But I hope it will not be only private enterprise, like the farmers and the steel makers, who will carry the increases in rail charges and that it will be only the nationalised industries who hand them on to the consumer. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to name one nationalised in-
  504
  dustry which is going to absorb these increased charges.
  The hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) made a frank attack in a fairly good-natured spirit, on those of us who are opposing this increase. Let me repeat one thing that has been said by one of my hon. Friends already, because I think the hon. Baronet was not in the Chamber at the time. The hon. Baronet said in his speech that he could not bring himself to be against the railways. But nobody is against the railways. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Member for Abingdon was not speaking with his usual fairness when he assumed that those of us who take the view that the 16⅔ per cent. increase is extremely damaging to the railway industry itself, quite apart from the industry of the country generally, are against the railways for that reason.
  He raised one other point. There may be arguments for or against it, but I beg him not to adopt the argument that because we integrated transport in London, and put up the bus fares in order to drive the people into the tubes and to get them off the streets, because, as he said, they were too crowded, we should necessarily extend that system—I use his own words—to the rest of the country. That is stretching imagination too far.
  I shall not deal—I cannot, I am afraid, in the time—with all the points that have been made in the Debate, but I hope I have made some attempt to deal with some of the more important arguments used in the Debate, and I may deal with one or two of them in more detail in a moment. Let me take, first, the problem which the right hon. Gentleman is up against. It is a big problem—bigger than the hon. Member for Perry Barr really imagined—and it is that there will be an accumulated deficit by the end of 1950, unless something is done, of between £50 million and £60 million.
  Now, I want to start with just a few questions about the right hon. Gentleman's proposals. The first question that I want to ask about is this. As I understand the proposal, it is to put up the freight rates by 16⅔ per cent., which will bring in £36.2 million in this year, but it allows for diversion of traffic a sum of £9.9 million. These calculations are set out in the Report of the Transport Tribunal in Appendix D.B.1, and they are

  505
  calculated on the basis of road costs as they were on 6th February. Something very drastic has happened to road costs since 6th February. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to raise £36.2 million on the railways, but a tax of £83 million has been imposed on the roads. He cannot very well ignore that. I do not believe that the hon. Member for Coventry, East, thought he could ignore that. Nobody could ignore it. So I ask the right hon. Gentleman to have a look at that analysis of the result and tell us whether, in view of that very changed situation, he really thinks that the same amount of traffic will be diverted as before.
  The second thing I want to ask is this. Suppose that these rates are put up, am I right in thinking that they will wipe out none of the arrears, and that, indeed, in the current year they will not even cover the full cost? Am I also right in thinking—and it is right that this question should be asked—that the basic assumption in the calculation and in the Report of the Tribunal is that there is no further increase in wages? No allowance whatever is made for that, and I think it would be wrong if anybody were to think from anything said in this House that in some way the railway men were to benefit from the proposals put forward at the present time.
  The third and last question I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman about these proposals is this. Has he consulted the Consultative Committee? After all, that is what the Committee was set up for. It seems to me that if ever there was a case when a consumers' body, established by this House of Commons for the purpose of dealing with such matters, ought to be consulted, this is it. I have their report here. I am afraid it is rather a slender document, but here it is, for what it is worth. I see that in paragraph 20 it says:
  "The Federation of British Industries have referred the above application"—
  that is the application for an increase of railway freights—
  "to the Committee with a request that they should give consideration to the Commission's proposals. They further suggest that before the Minister authorises any increases in charges, he should seek the Committee's views."
  Did he do that? I am sure he will give an answer and will tell the House what
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  the Committee's views were and what reasons they advanced.
  If I might leave that, I should like to turn to what I think are three main issues in this Debate. First, is the right hon. Gentleman right in the reasons which he gives for the situation which has now arisen? Has he got the basic causes in his mind? Secondly, is it possible to help this situation by some economies or by some lessening of expenditure on the railways rather than by putting up prices? Thirdly, is the 16¾ flat rate increase in all freight charges a sensible way of trying to tackle the problem? About those three points I want to say a little.
  May I take, first, the right hon. Gentleman's own case? I want to put the matter fairly and, I hope, broadly. What he says is that whereas general costs throughout the rest of the country have gone up very considerably as compared with before the war, railway costs have not gone up anything like as much. The general level increase is 120 per cent., and only 55 per cent. for the railways. The Transport Commission put forward the same case before the Tribunal. They said the railway charges are now generally increased 55 per cent., whereas the costs of labour and materials are up about 120 per cent., and that that was the primary reason for the present unbalanced state of their revenue.
  We are not asking whether it is more expensive to run a railway today than it was before the war. Everybody knows that it is. What I am concerned with is not the change in prices between 1938 and 1948, but the change in prices between 1947 and 1950. In October, 1947—I do not want to quote HANSARD but I have it here if it is required and I think I can quite fairly state the matter—an increase in passenger fares of 16¼ per cent. and in railway rates of 24 per cent. were granted specifically to deal with this particular problem. They took into account the increase in the wages granted by the Inquiry. They also took into account the 44-hour week, about which we have heard so much today. They were specifically stated to be allowed in order to deal with the increase in prices which had taken place during the war years.
  It seems to me, therefore—and I hope I carry the House with me m this matter

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  —that the real thing to look at is to see what has happened between 1947 and 1950 to explain why the right hon. Gentleman's budgeting went wrong—not just a bit wrong, but very wrong. What happened in those three years to make a difference of £4.5 million in the first, £21 million in the second and £30 million in the third year? I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman's case is, but does he really say that the Government have so mismanaged our affairs that prices have risen at such a pace during those three short years that outside conditions imposed upon the railways have forced up costs and losses in that sort of ever-increasing spiral? That is the sort of case he has to make in order to justify what he is doing at this stage.
  May I remind the right hon. Gentleman of what has really happened in these three years? Let us take wages first of all. I do not want to quote a lot of figures to the House, but if we divide railway expenditure up, it is, roughly, wages 60 per cent.; stores, fuel and power 35 per cent.; and depreciation 5 per cent. The bulk of the problem is wages. What has happened to wages during those three years? The right hon. Gentleman budgeted for an expenditure of £233 million and that is the increase he paid in 1948. in 1949 he had to pay £2 million more, making £235 million, but there have been certain reductions in the staff amounting to 27,000, and the best estimate I can get—the right hon. Gentleman can correct me if I am wrong—is that in 1950 he certainly will not have to pay any more than in 1948 and probably a little less, so we will put it at £230 million. It is true that there have been increases in the cost of materials. The National Coal Board's costs are going up with everything else, and the coal is not very good. That averages about 12 per cent., and it is only on 35 per cent. of the expenditure.
  It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has made out no case whatsoever for a 16⅔ per cent. increase. On the vast majority of his expenditure he is no worse off than he was in 1947 and on a small section of it the difference is nothing like 16⅔ per cent. Even supposing there has been an increase in costs—it has not been 16⅔ per cent.; I can convince the House of that—is he entitled to pass it all on to the consumer? Why should he
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  do that? Is that the criterion we ought to apply to other industries? I have here a little quotation which I found the other day. It is interesting and apposite. It is:
  "Surely the function of management in industry is not just passing on increased costs to purchasers. There is something more in the skill and the art of management than that. If not, then 14-year-old schoolboys armed with ready-reckoners could be managers."
  That was not from a speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton). It was from a speech by Lord Lucas of Chilworth, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport. Lord Lucas was making a characteristically savage attack on the system of private enterprise in which he himself has managed to earn a modest fortune. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if that is really the way that private industry is to be lectured by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, the Opposition are entitled to use the same argument in suggesting that the modest increases in prices since 1947 should be absorbed in increased efficiency in the transport industry.
  I do not pretend that transport economics are a simple thing or that I understand them completely. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hope hon. Members who are cheering know about them. There is one basic principle about all transport economics, and it is that the health, efficiency and prosperity of the transport industry depend upon what is going on in other industries outside. Transport is a servant and not a master. If there is a slump, transport cannot prosper; if there is a boom, transport equally will have a share in it.
  What has been happening during the past few years? I do not ask the House of Commons to accept as true everything that the President of the Board of Trade says about the increased tempo of our production. I do not wish to strain the credulity of hon. Members too far, but let us accept it as half-true. One would be led to the conclusion that there has been some increase in productivity during that period. The "Economic Survey" says how well we did in 1949. It puts the increase in production at 6½ per cent. and says we shall do better in 1950. Why is it that transport has not shared in all this? Manufacturers do not make goods

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  and sit down and look at them in the factories; they get them out of the factories, send them to the ports and export them. All that should bring great benefit to the transport industry. I am bound to say that if this is the best the transport industry can do in a boom with rising productivity, God help us in a slump.
  I hope I have said enough—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I have not quite finished yet. I had hoped at any rate to convince hon. Members that this talk of comparisons between 1938 and 1948 figures of costs is quite irrelevant to the case which the right hon. Gentleman has been putting forward and the demand for an increase of 16⅔ per cent. It is designed to darken counsel rather than to illuminate the truth. The case which the right hon. Gentleman has to make, having received from this House and from the Transport Commission everything he asked for in October, 1947, is how has the position outside the industry worsened in that period so as to have necessitated this increasing spiral of losses?
  I turn now to the second part of my case, the question of the economies. We on this side of the House do not accept for one moment that it is necessary for the British Transport Commission to go on losing public money at the rate they are losing it at the present time. We do not accept the view that every time their expenditure goes up we have to match it by an increase in charges. Nor have we been backward in putting forward in Debate after Debate arguments in support of our contention. I remember in the last Debate my right hon. and learned Friend and myself put forward a detailed argument about what had been going on in the passenger side of the industry. I will not read what I said because it is rather a bore when hon. Members read what they have said, but I will repeat the gist of it.
  The gist of it was that the amount of train mileage had gone up while the amount of gross revenue had gone down, that the average receipts had fallen over 10 per cent. in the period, and I suggested that the main case which the right hon. Gentleman had to face was the passenger side of the industry. He did not even trouble to reply to the point. He did not refer to it at all. He launched out into some disquisition on railway history between 1918 and 1921. It was
  510
  very interesting; a fascinating study; I am interested in all these matters. But he might have given us the courtesy of a reply; and even if he did not reply, he ought not to have the effrontery to say that we do not make suggestions at all from this side of the House.
  So, as I did not get a reply from the right hon. Gentleman I wrote to Sir Cyril Hurcomb and I did get a reply. I always hesitate to write to Sir Cyril Hurcomb because he quotes the number of letters he gets as an instance of the interest the public are taking in the transport industry. I asked Sir Cyril Hurcomb whether he could give me some information on the amount of money which they had lost on the passenger side. It was obvious that they had lost a good bit. I asked him if he could help me, and he replied:
  "The answer to your third question, if I understand it correctly, is that railway experts have never found it possible to apportion, with any useful degree of accuracy, the expenditure involved on the passenger, as distinct from the freight, side of railway working, and it has always been held that the margins of error in the numerous statistical assumptions that have to be made are so great as to invalidate any attempt at apportionment."
  This letter is from a man who is responsible for working out a scientific costing system.
  Mr. Harrison Mr. Harrison rose——
  Mr. Thorneycroft: If Sir Cyril Hurcomb and his advisers cannot work out the difference in cost between carrying passengers and freight, how on earth can they distinguish between oranges and coal?
  Mr. Harrison: Will the hon. Member allow me?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: No. I want to repeat this, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give us the courtesy of a reply. The number of trains is being increased again this year and the fares are still at the same high level. We have a growing population which cannot get on to the buses because they are overcrowded and cannot afford to go on the trains. What is happening now is that people are hitch-hiking.
  What is the policy of the right hon. Gentleman? I cannot understand the trading practices of this great monopoly. Let me take a simple illustration and, because it is topical, refer to cauliflowers

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  Supposing a greengrocer is trying to sell his cauliflowers at 2s. a time and housewives boycott his shop because they say that the price is too high; what is the advice that the Government give? It is, not to increase the number of cauliflowers and to hold prices at the same level, but to bring the price down. There seems to be some sense in that advice. Why do not the Government apply the same principle to transport, and recognise that there are vast numbers of people who cannot afford to travel up and down the country? There may be a case for increasing the number of trains or for cutting them down, but there is no case for increasing them and keeping the price at the level which the public have plainly shown they cannot afford.
  I believe that my right hon. and learned Friend and I were right in the case which we put forward in the Debate the other night, and I am fortified by what the right hon. Gentleman said when he was announcing the increased freight charges. What has happened is that the income from the passenger side has fallen from £133 million in 1947 to £107 million in 1949, a decrease of no less than £26 million. That is getting much nearer the heart of the matter and the real problem. The problem which faces the right hon. Gentleman is not so much the increase in outside costs, which in his case are very largely merely imaginary. The real problem is the decline in traffic which the railways are now carrying.
  I should like to pass to the two main defects, as I see them, and to the policy which the right hon. Gentleman and the Transport Commission are pursuing. I shall not enlarge upon them, because they have been referred to before, but the first thing which the right hon. Gentleman ought to do is certainly to de-centralise the railways far more than is done at present. The second thing that he ought to do is to bring more commercial knowledge in at the top and to inculcate a more commercial attitude from top to bottom of the system.
  Today it is necessary to sell transport. It is necessary to persuade people to let the railways carry their goods or to travel themselves as passengers. What instructions, for instance, are given these days to a Stationmaster? Is he encouraged to leave his station and to go out and look
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  for traffic? Of course, the alternative is to sit down and to strangle the roads, but that is a miserable course. If the right hon. Gentleman would get on and appoint someone with real commercial knowledge to the Commission, which he is in duty bound to do by the Act which was passed by this House, we might get a much more commercial attitude in the whole affair.
  I am not at all satisfied that the men employed in the industry are happy in the existing circumstances. I ask any railway worker what hope have the railway workers of increased wages under the system which now appertains, with an accumulated deficit which will amount to some £50 or £60 million at the end of 1950, and with increasing freight rates which will only discourage a lot of traffic instead of encouraging traffic on to the railways? No provision is made for any increases, even for the lowest-paid workers, in the proposals which are put forward by the right hon. Gentleman. I believe that the men employed in the industry are dissatisfied. Quite a lot of them write and say so. I have a letter from one of them in Leeds Central, who says:
  "I have taken particulars these late years since nationalisation how things have just drifted from bad to worse and you dare not do a decent job of work or you are dubbed an enemy of your class. What a state! Most of them in our depot malinger during the week and then clamour to work on Sundays double-time, of course, and they are allowed and the traffic is only thrown about as it cannot be delivered. It just mucks the place up and they laugh at the foolishness of it all. It is true there are so many supervisors, inspectors, canvassers, collectors, etc., it is a real sickness to see it, even market inspectors and so forth.… Do what you can to have this state of affairs made known."
  That is a letter—[An HON. MEMBER: "Who wrote it?"]—Yes, the hon. Member would like to know, would he not? I will tell the hon. Member this, since he asks: the man who wrote that letter did not want his name disclosed because he thought he would be injured in his job. I will now quote the name of the man who does not mind his name being given. Driver Marsden is his name and he drives a train from Bradford to Wakefield. He has been on the railways for 44 years and is a member of the Ardsley Trades Council. I have no idea what his politics are. He is about to retire and does not speak in very Parliamentary language, but

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  I hope the House will forgive me if I read what he says:
  "Why am I glad of it? It is because of this bloody Government"——
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of Order. In view of the reference to the word "venom" at Question Time, I wish to ask for guidance. is the word "bloody" in order?
  Mr. Speaker: The word "bloody," used in regard to another hon. Member, is certainly out of Order, but this is a quotation, I think.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The letter goes on:
  "They've ruined everything they've touched and now they're ruining the railways. There's more bosses on the railways than there are employees and railwaymen can't call their lives their own. Write it down"—
  this will please the right hon. Gentleman—
  "put it in the paper. Say that I said it. They can't do me any harm. Soon there'll be no passengers at all and soon there won't be any trains. They can't get people to ride on the railways because the fares are too high. And the reason the fares are too high is because we have to pay all these bosses who are drawing thousands a year and doing nowt. The money isn't going out in wages, it's going in officialdom. It isn't the railways that are wrong, it's the freight and the fares. We can't do without the railways. I tell you if there were motor wagons on every main road and every by-road in Britain they couldn't keep this country victualled.… We have engines that can pull a thousand tons and get away with it. How many motor vehicles would it take to pull 60 or 100 trucks? Only the railways can keep this country running. The railways are essential. They will never be done away with, but by heck we'll have to run 'em different from the way they're doing now."
  Driver Marsden expresses much more succinctly than I could the reason why we shall be voting against these Regulations tonight. What I say to the right hon. Gentleman is this. I believe Driver Marsden expressed two things which are absolutely true. One is that there is too much of a top-heavy organisation sitting on top of the railways at present and the second thing is his faith in the railway system as a whole. I support him; I believe the railway system has a great future in this country but it will only have it if the right hon. Gentleman and the Transport Commission will stop trying to strangle road haulage and instead concentrate upon attracting to the railways the traffics profitable to them. If
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  they do not know what is profitable, if Sir Cyril Hurcomb says that the economists find it difficult to assimilate the statistics, and so on, let them go and ask Driver Marsden—he might help. Of one thing I am quite sure; the one way not to do it is by putting a flat rate increase of 16⅔ per cent. upon all the rates of this country.
  Look at what the Transport Commission themselves have said. Anyone who has studied railway freights agrees that what we need is a more scientific rating structure. They produced a booklet on it. Sir William Wood has been head of a Committee which has been sitting for two years looking at this matter, and at the end they have come forward and said that the rates must be related to the cost of stowage potential, etc. How does all this enter into a flat rate increase of 16⅔ per cent.? It does not enter into the matter at all, it cuts right across it.
  Then the right hon. Gentleman comes along and says "We have to do it because the Transport Tribunal have looked at all this and they have come to that conclusion." But they did not come to any such conclusion really. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman would study the report of the Tribunal. What was said in it was that the evidence was wholly inadequate for them to decide between the two sides of the argument put before them. It was beyond the power of the Tribunal in a 10 days' hearing of that kind, and no doubt it may not have fallen within their terms of reference, to find out why these economies could not be made. They said they felt more or less bound to accept the view put forward by the Transport Commission.
  But we in this House cannot accept that. We cannot be asked to agree to a flat rate increase of 16⅔ per cent. upon evidence which the Tribunal themselves say is wholly inadequate for a proper determination of the matter. I have never heard a more surprising suggestion put before the House of Commons. We say that this crisis need never have arisen, and that now it has arisen the wrong remedies are being applied. We challenge the right hon. Gentleman, although I do not think he dare do it, to submit the costs of administration of the British Transport Commission to the searchlight of a public inquiry.
  10.9 p.m.
  The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): The hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) always endeavours to add to our entertainment at the end of a Debate of this kind. I have seldom listened to a closing speech in this Chamber that has had so little relation to the subject we have been discussing. I wonder what the opinion of the House would have been if Members could have heard the speech of the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) as the closing speech for the Opposition in this Debate? He made the most knowledgeable contribution which has been made in our discussion tonight.
  Unfortunately, the closing Opposition speech was not that speech, which embodied a lifetime of experience of the railway industry in this country, a speech which did not represent the point of view which those of us on this side of the House represent but represented an experience gained from the directors' table and from political experience in this House in the party which now sits on the other side of the Chamber. I suggest, that while we may be entertained by a speech of the character delivered by the hon. Member for Monmouth, it does not reflect the attitude of responsibility which this House ought to adopt in dealing with a problem of this kind. This is an industry vital to this country both in peace and in war. It is an industry which absorbs over £1,000 million of capital and involves the livelihood of 600,000 persons.
  With the exception of the speech of the hon. Member for Monmouth the Debate this evening is the best of the Debates we have had on transport matters. Three proposals have come before the House for consideration. There are the proposals of the Government that we should accept the recommendations of the permanent members of the Tribunal acting as a Consultative Committee, in which provision was made by Parliament to deal with a situation of this kind. That decision was arrived at after 28 representative bodies of the traders of this country had argued their case for 13 days in a much more effective and practical manner than was revealed by the type of speech to which we have just listened. The tribunal was composed of people with a life-long experience of judging the
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  kind of claims and the cases put forward. After listening to the case and the criticisms of business men representing major industries the tribunal came to the conclusion that this was the best way to deal with the present situation.
  They were not discussing the problem of how permanently to determine our railway policy. A good deal of the criticism in this Debate has entirely overlooked the situation which this House has to determine. The fact remains that for seven years a war-time Parliament assumed executive control, through their Minister, over the railways. Parliament must accept full responsibility for the executive control of the railways during that period. It was not the directors who controlled the railways during the war. The four general managers were a management executive, acting under the direct authority of the Minister of the time. The circumstances during that period were justifiably and understandably a problem of the House, and I accept my share of that responsibility.
  Nevertheless no attempt was made during that period to adjust the charges or the affairs of the railway industry with the rise in prices which always occurs during war. Parliament and the Government neglected to do the job which is the normal task of management and of executive authority. The actual traffic which sustained the economy of the railways during and immediately after the war was not a normal traffic. It was a war-time traffic—artificial and abnormal.
  I shall show by figures, a little later, that it is the final stage of that process which has produced the present situation. The hon. Member for Monmouth said that the increases made in 1947 should have covered all contingencies. As a matter of fact, the 44-hour week and the increased wages were in process of negotiation at that time. Later, I hope to submit information and material, facts and figures, not of my own creation but the real facts of the situation which, I think, will justify——
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I should not like to have made a false point. As a matter of fact, the right hon. Gentleman specifically said that his application for increased rates at that time took account of the

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  very considerations he has just mentioned. He said:
  "I also stated that the estimated costs of implementing the recommendations of the Court of Inquiry into wages and hours of railwaymen, which have since been accepted, will be £22 million in 1947 and £37 million in 1948."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 5th August, 1947; Vol. 441, c. 1297.]
  Therefore, the fact is that not only did he know, but he knew the specific figures.
  Mr. Barnes: I had the estimate at that time, but all the consequential increases as a result of that decision could not then be accurately estimated. I do not wish in any way to evade that issue. I think I can prove conclusively that certain consequences flowed from that, which will explain the situation.
  Let me deal with the three issues which have emerged tonight. There is the proposal which we are submitting in these Orders and Regulations; there is the subsidy advocated by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) and supported by one or two other hon. Members on this side of the House; and there is the inquiry by an ad hoc committee as suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe). The right hon. and learned Gentleman's case was that before we imposed these additional charges we should appoint an ad hoc committee of business men.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Practical men experienced in running railways.
  Mr. Barnes: Practical men experienced in running railways. But where are we to get such people? Have we not got them now on the Railway Executive? If the right hon. and learned Gentleman says that we have not, I refer him to the statement by the hon. Member for Abingdon. He admitted, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman cannot deny it, that each of the members of the Railway Executive has had wide and general experience of the main line railway companies which operated in the past. They held high executive positions. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman propose that we should appoint another body of experts to examine the activities of an existing body of experts?
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to me. I ask for two people who have had railway experience. I do not want to bandy names across the Floor of the House, for reasons which he will appreciate; but I could easily give him two names. He must have a dozen names.
  Mr. Barnes: In what way could these two people, whoever they may be, alter the facts of the situation? That is the point we must consider. All that represents is a policy of delay. That is what hon. Members opposite desire—a policy of delay to place the railways in an increasing difficulty, so that they can use that and point to it as the failure of nationalisation. Is that a good position to adopt, in a business issue of this kind, where receipts cannot possibly cover expenses, because the expenses are on a price level of 125 per cent. over pre-war and one's own price level is based on receipts of 55 per cent. over pre-war? I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that all he proposes is to bring in people from industries whose price levels are above those of the railways to examine the problem of the railways. That is what this question comes down to.
  I take it that these people are not out of work, but are in business. They cannot be engaged in the railway business unless they are already officers of the railway system, and I therefore assume that they must be engaged in private business and with some experience of railway administration in the past. If they are engaged in private business now, let the right hon. and learned Gentleman quote me any industry whose prices are not higher than those of our railway industry. What case can be made out for bringing persons from industries whose charges are higher than those on the railways to show them how to get their costs below the economic level?
  In this instance, of course, what we are now doing is due to the fact that, for seven years, Parliament or the Government, which controlled the railways, did not adjust their price levels to the existing levels. This is the final stage in that process, and it was provided for in the Transport Act. It was recognised in the Act, when it was passed through Parliament, that before the new charges scheme could come into operation circumstances

  519
  might arise which would necessitate the adjustment of the existing charges and Parliament, in the Act, made the provision necessary for this situation.
  Hon. Members have stated repeatedly this evening that the increase of 16⅔ per cent., and the revenue of £26 million which it is estimated to yield, will not wipe out the deficiency and the cumulative deficiency on British Transport account. It has never been suggested that it would. It had always been made plain, from the time when I first announced the request of the British Transport Commission for the use of this machinery for that purpose, that all it is designed to do is to prevent the loss accumulating, because, if losses accumulated to too high a figure, they would destroy the efficiency of the charges scheme.
  It is not for the purpose of liquidating the whole of the existing loss of the Commission; it is for the purpose of safeguarding the situation, which was apparent in the speeches delivered both by the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon and the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts). Their major concern was that when the charges scheme did come along it would, in fact, remove very substantially, if not completely, the anomalies that existed in our railway rates schemes in the past. We have always made it plain that the 16⅔ per cent. is designed to secure sufficient revenue to prevent the cumulative loss destroying the whole efficiency of that scheme. I want to emphasise that this only applies to the freight side of the industry, and does not represent any increase in passenger fares.
  Now I come to the question of a subsidy. The problem of the permanent way and a subsidy was thoroughly considered before the final decision was made to propose, by these Regulations, an increase of 16⅔ per cent., and I have never hesitated, in all the discussions which I have had on this subject when it has been before Parliament, to express my own opposition to a subsidy for the railways. After all, a subsidy does not remove the charge from the industry; it merely removes it from the users of the service to the taxpayers. I took the view that the hardness of the Budgetary position is just as much a difficulty in our economic situation as is a charge of this description, imposed direct on freights. I suggest—and I have noticed in HANSARD—
  520
  that not one Member opposite, however much he has criticised this proposal, has advocated a subsidy in place of increased charges. The whole of the Opposition's case has been one of hopeless delay by an inquiry. None of them is prepared to face the issue of either a subsidy or increased charges.
  There is a further reason why I am opposed to a subsidy for the purpose of meeting this difficulty. The charges scheme is designed, eventually, to put both road and rail transport in this country on an entirely different footing—and a permanent footing—from what it has been on in the past. I am satisfied that once a subsidy is given to a service of this kind, all sorts of difficulties that ought to be met by economies and by efficient management would probably be sacrificed to the idea of a subsidy. Not only that: this Debate, and the consideration of the incidence of an increased charge, bring to bear on the problem of economies and efficiency public opinion, Parliamentary opinion, and Press opinion.
  With regard to nationalised services, I think we get a better result by facing up to a problem of this kind in the way we have tonight. Despite our differences of opinion, I am confident that, in that way, we ultimately get a sounder economic system in the country. By the fierceness of our Debates and by bringing the searchlight of public criticism to bear on the administration of any public service we get, as I say, a sounder economic system than by attempting to bury the problem in the form of a subsidy. In this case, the subsidy would take the form of the Treasury meeting the interest charges on the compensation given to old railway shareholders. I am satisfied that every time railway workers attempted to improve their conditions in order to keep them in line with the general movement of improved conditions in the country, they would find that the effect of a subsidy, its cost on the Budget, and the fact that it represented the payment of interest on the capital item of compensation, would have a very injurious effect on our railways.
  I now come to the problem of efficiency. Apart from the fact that an inquiry would represent delay, no evidence has been submitted to the Consultative Committee, certainly not in this

  521
  Debate today, to prove the inefficiency of the Transport Commission or of the Railway Executive. Members opposite have no right, in my view, to demand an inquiry into the administration of a public body of men unless they can produce some evidence to show that such an inquiry is desirable. I took the precaution to circulate in HANSARD a series of figures representing the normal test that any person could apply to any administration so that members of the public, or anyone else, could decide for themselves whether there was efficiency or inefficiency.
  Today, not a single Member opposite has attempted to bulid up a case on any of those figures, or has made any reference to a single figure or fact contained in that information in an endeavour to prove any of them incorrect. Why have they not done that? The figures were all set out in detail. If hon. Members opposite could have upset those figures, they would then have begun to build up a case for an inquiry They have entirely ignored all the facts which the tribunal and I and my advisers have considered, and the tests we have applied as to whether an alternative is necessary.
  Let me give the House a few of these figures. Like the hon. Member for Monmouth I do not enjoy, or appreciate, quoting many figures to the House, nor do I like talking at undue length. Nevertheless, I feel it is essential tonight that I should mention certain figures. I have referred to the fact that costs have been steadily rising against the railway administration. No one denies that.
  What is the best test we can apply to any business or any management if they are facing rising costs? It is: Are they exercising within their general administration the utmost economy against an adverse factor of that kind? The test of the overall position is the overall expenses. Despite improvements, the total expenses of British Railways have remained relatively steady—£311 million in 1948, £312 million in 1949 and the estimated figure for this year of £314 million. In three years the total expenses of railway administration have gone up only 1 per cent. as against the general rise in prices of all goods bought outside. That is the position which hon. Members opposite have to upset if they wish to level an accusation of inefficiency
  522
  against a public concern and ask for another inquiry. They have been unable to do so.
  Let me take another aspect to prove, as I contend, that we are liquidating the final responsibility of Parliament towards the railway industry. The total passenger and freight receipts in 1947, when the Transport Commission took over, was £349 million on the basis of present charges. These have progressively declined until, in 1950, they are estimated at £319 million—a loss of £30 million. That is the crux of the whole situation. It has been the decline in the revenue of the railway undertaking that has produced these losses. If hon. Members have come in late, and have not had the advantage of hearing the whole argument, they cannot complain now if I attempt to answer some of the criticism that has been levelled. From 1947 to 1950 Government traffic declined by £21 million from £54 million to £33 million. That £21 million represents the final stages of the abnormal war traffic channelled through the railways and obscuring their position. This decline in Government traffic represents £14 million of passenger traffic and £7 million of freight. In the case of freight receipts in that period, they have kept remarkably steady.
  That shows it has not been a decline in commercial traffic, or freight traffic, which has caused the difficulties on the railways. As a matter of fact, it has only declined from £183, million to £180 million, a net loss of £3 million, whereas the Government freight traffic declined by £7 million. Passenger receipts in that period fell altogether by £26 million. Of that, £14 million represented a decline in the Government-sponsored passenger traffic, and £12 million of it was represented by a decline in civilian traffic.
  I suggest that when one faces a situation of that kind no one can prove that, so far, there has been any considerable loss of volume of traffic to the railways either through inefficiency or through any other process which they may have adopted. But I want to emphasise this other point to show the difficulties which the railway management have had to face. In this period during which, owing to investment control and restriction, the railways have not been able to modernise their service, have not been able to build

  523
  the coaches they require, so as to be able to go out and compete for traffic. Then, in 1947, we had the fuel crisis, as a result of which, by direction, we had to cut services by 10 per cent. While all these difficulties were facing railway managements, and other sides of my Department, the records show that road transport services, i.e., scheduled public services, in that period expanded by 7,300,000 miles a week. I want to emphasise these points.
  Hon. Members often accuse us of trying to build up a monopoly. They talk about our "throttling "and handicapping the roads. The figures I am giving show that in this period, when the railways were suffering from severe handicaps which largely sprang from national requirements and from political circumstances and Parliamentary control, the road passenger services expanded by 7,300,000 miles a week. I have excluded the London Transport services from these figures.
  Now I want to turn to the impact of this 16⅔ per cent. increase on industrial costs and on the cost of living. I want to say——
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this point, will he give an answer tonight to the questions about the increased passenger services which have meant a loss, as I calculate it, of £15 million, and why these increased passenger services are continued? Surely that is evidence of, at any rate, extremely unsuccessful running.
  Mr. Barnes: I am always surprised that the right hon. and learned Gentleman even raises that point. He ought to know that, even today, the railways have been unable, because of the general circumstances to which I have referred, to restore services equal to those of pre-war days. That being the case, what is the use of criticising the railways and complaining that there is no enterprise? One hon. Gentleman says that station masters ought to "sell" the railways, and then his right hon. and learned Friend gets up and says, "Why cannot you explain why they are endeavouring to cater for more trade by putting on more services?" I have already pointed out that when we had the fuel crisis in 1947, due to the weather—[Interruption.] Right hon. and
  524
  hon. Members opposite cannot even have the decency to recognise that on that occasion it was the railways which practically saved the industry of the country because it was necessary to keep private industry going—[Interruption.] I know that this is a diversion, but I am not prepared to evade the type of jeer which there was when I made that comment.
  I was the Minister at the time when we met these quite exceptional circumstances, and I can tell the House that industries throughout the country were living from day to day, wondering whether we could keep the snow-stopped roads and railways of this country in use. Only by mobilising all the railways and drawing to the full on the patriotism of railwaymen were we able to keep industry going in this country. So low does political prejudice bring some hon. Members that they cannot even acknowledge the decency of a decision of that character.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I was asking about what was done in the summer of 1949 and why the same loss-making system was carried on in 1950; but the right hon. Gentleman goes back to the winter and early spring of 1947. That has nothing to do with what I asked.
  Mr. Barnes: I repeat that these additional services are a restoration of services, but right hon. and hon. Members opposite are apparently moving to the position where they want the railways to be kept to a static mileage and in no circumstances to extending. We are not prepared to accept that position. Whatever the motive may be—and I can imagine quite a number of motives—I welcome the decision of the steel industry to carry this charge of £6 million on their industry. It is very interesting, when one observes the kind of criticism that was raised during the holding of the inquiry, to hear that they will now carry this charge without passing it on.
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: When the right hon. Gentleman talks about "motives." what is he suggesting?
  Mr. Barnes: Well, perhaps it is big-heartedness that has influenced their decision. Whatever the motive, or whatever one calls it, I welcome that decision because I have often emphasised that for two years, and even for more, the railways have had to carry increased steel

  525
  prices, with coal costing more and timber at higher prices, and when the time comes for the railways to move into something like equity, it is only right that an industry should carry some of these charges.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Does this apply to coal and gas?
  Mr. Barnes: I cannot say which industries can or cannot do this, but I am entitled to say that this £6 million represents practically a quarter of the total charge; and I appeal to industry generally to endeavour to follow that example, because I think it is about time that the railways, which have always served industry well, had an equally fair crack of the whip from industry itself.
  I want to deal now with the total income that the Commission expect to get from this 16⅔ increase in freights and the increase in their dock charges, from 25 to 50 per cent. on coastwise shipping and the increase from 75 to 100 per cent. in the other dues and charges. The total income expected from these increases is £27,300,000 of which the railways are expected to yield £26,300,000. The hon. Member emphasised that since these figures were estimated, an additional charge or expense had been put on to road transport.
  I frankly admit that I cannot deal with a situation of that kind. Certainly that was not calculated when these figures were submitted to the Tribunal, and the hon. Member knows that. The hon. Member is perfectly aware that when this was discussed before the Tribunal it was before the Budget, and no one could have forseen an additional charge of this description. How far that will affect the £10 million representing the allowance for diversion of traffic, I cannot estimate. I doubt whether anyone could give an exact figure of that description. If I might express a personal view, I sincerely hope there will not be a diversion of traffic to the extent of £10 million, and that it represents an over-estimate.
  Taking the gross figure of £36.2 million, let us now relate it to the gross output of the value of manufactured goods as stated in the Economic Survey for 1950. From this estimate the gross output of manufactured goods in this country would represent a figure of £6,210 million. On that
  526
  basis, spread over that figure, these additional charges represent rather under 0.6 per cent. If that is taken in relation to the gross output of manufactured goods in this country, it does not represent a serious additional charge on the gross charge to British industry, although I should be the first to admit that whilst general charges of that kind can be dealt with, it does not answer specific instances.
  When we come to other factors that situation can change. If it is applied to the total output of the agricultural industry of this country, the £2 million additional cost which agriculture is expected to pay is 0.4 per cent. of their total output. Again, I suggest that on that total overall figure it should not represent any substantial addition to the cost of agricultural commodities in this country.
  I turn now to the points that have been raised dealing with the economical use of manpower due to the advantages of the unification of the four main line railway companies and the future development of British transport policy. Figures have been quoted here tonight, which I wish to confirm, corroborating that in the last two years the British Transport Commission have reduced their staffs by over 30,000 individuals. The figure in the pre-war year of 1938 was 550,000 employed by the railways. Whether it was allowed for in the increased charges or not, does not affect this point. Since then, there has been the 44-hour week. There have been longer holidays granted and the British Transport Commission estimate that that and the other factors would represent a 12½ per cent. increase in the labour force that was employed in 1938. If these figures of 12½ per cent. are accepted—and this, in my view, is another efficiency test—then the figure of 620,000, which now represents the staff of British Railways, is beginning to get very near the figure of 550,000 in 1938.
  While I mention that, I do not accept it as conclusive evidence, and I can assure hon. Members in all parts of the House that the British Transport Commission, in conjunction with the unions, will press on steadily and continuously with a view to securing the utmost efficiency in the use of manpower in the industry. Before I leave the labour point, I think it is desirable to emphasise also that, in 1948,

  527
  a sum of £20 million was expended on overtaking the arrears in maintenance which had accumulated and been neglected during the war, and, in 1949, a further £15 million was expended on this policy of overtaking arrears.
  Whatever hon. Members may feel in looking at adverse factors, it is desirable to bear this in mind on the other side of the account. One cannot spend £20 million in overtaking arrears in a year and £15 million in another year without that being reflected in labour costs. The deferred maintenance fund which the British Transport Commission took over in 1947—the accumulated maintenance fund during the war—which then represented £150 million, is now reduced to £115 million. That again, as I say, is an explanatory factor with regard to the labour force.
  The best efficiency test probably in connection with the railways has been mentioned already by some hon. Members, but I want to refer to it again tonight. In 1938, the figure was 461 ton miles per engine-hour; in 1947, the year before the British Transport Commission took over, it worked out at 516 ton miles per engine-hour; and in 1948 it was 542 ton miles per engine-hour. The hon. Member for Merioneth—[Interruption.]. I want to remind hon. Members that the right hon. and learned Gentleman who opened this Debate took nearly an hour; the hon. Member for Monmouth, who wound up this Debate for the Opposition, also took nearly an hour, and he had very little information to give the House whilst he was talking. If hon. Members do not like my speech, they should leave the Chamber.
  The hon. Member for Merioneth quoted certain information apparently from an article by Mr. Smith. I have not read that article, but I have obtained certain information in connection with it, and I am informed that Mr. Smith apparently was, first of all, comparing the American short ton of 2,000 lb. against the United Kingdom ton of 2,240 lb. That would make a big difference. He ignores that fact—and I want hon. Members to keep this in mind, because I was staggered when he used the figure of 15,000 ton miles—that the average length of haul in the United States
  528
  is 424 miles compared with 72 miles in the United Kingdom. That emphasises the difficulty of comparing fares and railway operation and figures in a country like the United States, with its immense distances, with railway operations in this country, where the distances are relatively short.
  I think that the figures I am now going to give represent further striking evidence—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—the more facts submitted, apparently, the less hon. Members opposite like it. What I am proving beyond any dispute is that the policy of the Opposition, of just pushing aside all these difficulties by inquiries and delays, is not justified, because I have the information here which enables the House to come to a decision.
  The average train load in 1938—under private management, I want to emphasise—was 125 tons. In 1948, it was 156 tons. The average wagon load under private enterprise was 5.55 tons. Under the Transport Commission it was improved to 6.48 tons. The waste of wagons under private enterprise can be judged from the fact that in 1933 there was 33 per cent. empty running. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] Under the Transport Commission we have got that down to 27 per cent. Might I give a few final figures, because I want them recorded in HANSARD even if I cannot record them in the minds of hon. Members opposite? I want them recorded so that other people can appreciate them. Further economies have resulted in the closing of 40 marshalling yards, which represents a saving of 250,000 engine-hours a year.
  I suggest that it would be quite useless and unnecessary to bring in any of the railway experts in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the Member for West Derby is interested, or to promote an inquiry in this direction. Parliament is tonight faced with three alternatives. It can approve these charges, which will hold the position until the charges scheme comes into operation so that, for the first time in the first half of this century, we shall be able to get a scheme which will solve the problem of road and rail transport.
  The second alternative is whether Parliament would prefer a subsidy, with all the difficulties that that represents. The

  529
  final point we have to decide is whether we are to run away from the difficulty, as the Opposition advocate, and push it off by some useless, indefinite inquiry. I have absolute confidence in recommending to the House that they approve the Government's proposals as the best, soundest and most efficient and most businesslike way of tackling this problem.
  Question put.
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Regulations, dated 1st May, 1950, entitled the Railways (Additional Charges) Regulations, 1950 (S.I., 1950, No. 701), a copy of which was laid before this House on 2nd May, be annulled."
  The House divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 306.

  Division No 12.]

  AYES

  [ 5 p.m

  Aitken, W. T.

  Drewe, C.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Amery, J. (Preston, N.)

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Amory, D. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Arbuthnot, J. S.

  Eccles, D. M.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Lindsay, Martin

  Baker, P.

  Fisher, N. T. L.

  Linstead, H. N.

  Baldock, J M.

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Llewellyn, D.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Fort, R.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Banks, Col. C.

  Foster, J. G.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Baxter, A. B.

  Fraser, Hon. H. C. P. (Stone)

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Bell, R. M. (S. Buckinghamshire)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

  Longden, G J. M. (Herts, S. W.)

  Bennett, Sir P. (Edgbaston)

  Gage, C. H.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Bennett, R. F. B. (Gosport)

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

  Lucas, Major Sir J. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Bennett, W. G. (Woodside)

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Bevins, J. R. (Liverpool, Toxteth)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H

  Birch, Nigel

  Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O

  Bishop, F. P.

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Black, C. W.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

  McCallum, Maj. D

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Gridley, Sir A.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon M. S

  Boothby, R.

  Grimston, Hon. J. (St. Albans)

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Bossom, A. C.

  Grimston, R. V. (Westbury)

  McKibbin, A.

  Bower, N.

  Harden, J. R. E.

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

  Maclean, F. H. R.

  Braine, B.

  Harris, R. R. (Heston)

  MacLeod, I. (Enfield, W.)

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

  Harvey, Air-Codre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

  MacLeod, J. (Ross and Cromarty)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

  Harvey, I. (Harrow, E.)

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Brooke, H. (Hampstead)

  Hay, John

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Browne, J. N. (Govan)

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

  Marlowe, A. A H.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Heald, L. F.

  Marples, A. E.

  Bullus, Wing-Commander E. E.

  Heath, Colonel E. G. R

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Burden, Squadron-Leader F. A

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Butcher, H. W.

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Maude, A. E. U. (Ealing, S)

  Carr, L. R. (Mitcham)

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Maude, J. C. (Exeter)

  Carson, Hon. E.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Maudling, R.

  Channon, H.

  Hill, Dr. C. (Luton)

  Medlicott, Brigadier F

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Clarke, Col. R. S. (East Grinstead)

  Hirst, G. A. N.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Clarke, Brig. T. H. (Port-mouth, W.)

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  Clyde, J. L.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Colegate, A.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W S. (Cirencester)

  Cooper, A. E. (Ilford, S.)

  Hope, Lord J

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hopkinson, H.

  Nabarro, G.

  Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss p

  Nicholls, H.

  Craddock, G. B. (Spelthorne)

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Nicholson, G.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Howard, G. R. (St. Ives)

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F C.

  Howard, S. G. (Cambridgeshire)

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Cross, Rt. Hon. Sir R.

  Hudson, Sir A. U. M. (Lewisham, N.)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Crouch, R. F.

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N J.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Crowder, F. P. (Ruislip, N'thwood)

  Hurd, A. R.

  Odey, G. W.

  Crowder, Capt. John F. E. (F'chley)

  Hutchinson, G (Ilford, N.)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

  Cundiff, F. W.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Com, Clark (E'b'rgh, W)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Hyde, H. M.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S

  Darling, Sir W. Y. (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jeffreys, General Sir G

  Orr-Ewing, Charles I. (Hendon, N.)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Jennings, R.

  Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare)

  Davies, Nigel (Epping)

  Johnson, H. S. (Kemptown)

  Osborne, C.

  de Chair, S.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  De la Bére, R,

  Deedes, W. F.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon L. W

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Kaberry, D.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Keeling, E. H

  Pickthorn, K.

  Donner, P. W.

  Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord M

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W H

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lambert, Hon. G

  Prescott, Stanley

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Turton, R H.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

  Snadden, W. McN

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Profumo, J. D.

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K

  Rayner, Brig. R

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Redmayne, M.

  Spens, Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Wakefield, E B (Derbyshire, W.)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon R (N. Fylde)

  Wakefield, Sir W. W (St Marylebone)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Stevens, G. P.

  Walker-Smith, D O

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Ward, Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Roberts, P. G. (Heeley)

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E)

  Ward, Miss I (Tynemouth)

  Robertson, Sir D (Caithness)

  Storey, S

  Waterhouse, Capt. C

  Robinson, J. Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Watkinson, H.

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon J. (Moray)

  Watt, Sir G. S Harvie

  Rodgers, J. (Sevenoaks)

  Studholme, H. G

  Webbe, Sir H (London)

  Roper, Sir H.

  Summers, G. S.

  White, J. Baker (Canterbury,

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Sutclifle, H

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Russell, R. S.

  Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N)

  Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, E.)

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Teeling, William

  Wills, G.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Thomas, J. P L (Hereford)

  Wilson, G. (Truro)

  Savory, Prof. D. L.

  Thompson, K. P (Walton)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Scott, Donald

  Thompson, R. H. M. (Croydon, W.)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Cheadle)

  Thorneyoroft, G. E P. (Monmouth)

  York, C.

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Smith, E. M. (Grantham,)

  Thorp, Brigadier R A F

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Tilney, J D.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Smithers, Sir W. (Orpington)

  Touche, G. C

  Major Conant and Major Wheatley.

  NOES

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  Adams, Richard

  Crosland, C. A. R

  Griffiths, W D (Exchange)

  Albu, A. H.

  Crossman, R. H. S

  Gunter, R. J.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Daines, P.

  Hale, J (Rochdale)

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Darling, G. (Hillsboro')

  Hall, J. (Gateshead, W)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Davies, Edward (Stoke, N.)

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Ayles, W. H.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Hamilton, W. W

  Bacon, Mist A

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hannan, W

  Baird, J.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Hardman, D R

  Balfour, A.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Hardy, E. A

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Hargreaves, A

  Bartley, P.

  Deer, G.

  Harrison, J

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Delargy, H. J

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Benson, G.

  Diamond, J.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Beswick, F.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Tipton)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Donnelly, D

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Bing, G H. C

  Donovan, T. N

  Hewitson, Capt. M

  Blackburn, A. R

  Driberg, T. E. N

  Hobson, C. R.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. J (W Bromwich)

  Holman, P.

  Blyton, W R

  Dye, S.

  Holmes, H E (Hem worth)

  Boardman, H

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J C

  Houghton, Douglas

  Booth, A.

  Edelman, M.

  Hoy, J.

  Bottomley, A. G

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  Hubbard, T.

  Bowden, H. W.

  Edwards, L. J. (Brighouse)

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, N.)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Hughes, Emrys (S Ayr)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Hughes, R. M. (Islington, N.)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Brooks, T. J. (Normanton)

  Ewart, R

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D

  Fernyhough, E.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Field, Capt. W J

  Irving, W J (Wood Green)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Finch, H. J.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G A

  Burke, W. A.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Janner, B.

  Burton, Miss E.

  Follick, M

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney. S)

  Foot, M. M.

  Jeger, G. (Goole)

  Callaghan, James

  Forman, J. C

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Carmichael, James

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Jenkins, R. H.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Johnson, J. (Rugby)

  Champion, A. J.

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H T N

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

  Clunie, J.

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Cocks, F. S.

  George, Lady M. Lloyd

  Jones, William Elwyn (Conway)

  Coldrick, W.

  Gibson, C W

  Keenan, W.

  Collick, P.

  Gilzean, A

  Kenyon, C.

  Collindridge, F

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Cook, T. F.

  Gooch, E. G.

  King, H. M.

  Cooper, G. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Kinghorn, Sqn -Ldr E

  Cooper, J. (Deptford)

  Greenwood, A W. J. (Rossendale)

  Kinley, J.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Peckham)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Lang, Rev. G.

  Cove, W. G.

  Grenfell, D. R

  Lee, F. (Newton)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Grey, C. F.

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Crawley, A.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  532

  533

  Lever, N. H. (Cheetham)

  Paling, Rt. Hn. Wilfred (Dearne V'lly)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith

  Lewis, A. W. J. (West Ham, N)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Lewis, J. (Bolton, W.)

  Pannell, T. C.

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

  Parker, J.

  Thomas, T. George (Cardiff)

  Logan, D. G.

  Paton, J.

  Thomas, I. O, (Wrekin)

  Longden, F. (Small Heath)

  Pearson, A

  Thomas, I. R. (Rhondda, W.)

  McAllister, G.

  Peart, T. F.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Poole, Cecil

  Thurtle, Ernest

  McGhee, H. G.

  Popplewell, E

  Timmons, J.

  McGovern, J.

  Porter, G.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

  McInnes, J.

  Price, M Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Tomney, F.

  Mack, J. D.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Usborne, Henry

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Reading, N.)

  Pursey, Comdr. H.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  McLeavy, F.

  Rankin, J.

  Viant, S. P.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Rees, Mrs. D.

  Wade, D. W.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Reeves, J.

  Wallace, H. W

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Watkins, T. E

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Reid, W. (Camlachie)

  Weitzman, D.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Rhodes, H.

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Richards, R.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Robens, A.

  West, D. G.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Roberte, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  White, Mrs. E. (E. Flint)

  Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N E)

  Mellish, R J.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N)

  Wigg, George

  Messer, F.

  Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N)

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C A. B

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Wilkes, L.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Royle, C.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Moeran, E. W.

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Monslow, W.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Moody, A. S.

  Shurmer, P. L E.

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Morley, R.

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Simmons, C. J.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Huyton)

  Mort, D. L.

  Slater, J.

  Winterbottom, I. (Nottingham, C.)

  Moyle, A

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Winterbottom, R. E. (Brightside)

  Mulley, F. W.

  Snow, J. W.

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Murray, J. D

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Nally, W.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir F.

  Woods, Rev. G. S.

  Neal, H.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Steele, T.

  Yates, V. F.

  O'Brien, T.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Orbach, M.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Mr. Whiteley and

  Padley, W. E.

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Mr. R. J. Taylor.

  Paget, R. T.

  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: On a point of Order. While your Deputy was in the Chair, Mr. Speaker, it was agreed that there would be a general discussion on all the points raised by the five Prayers. We have had that general discussion and voted on one of the Prayers, and I do not desire to detain the House by pressing the other Prayers to a Division.
  Mr. Speaker: I take it that the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not intend to move any of the remaining Motions?
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe indicated assent.

  OPENCAST COAL MINING
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Popplewell.]
  11.15 p.m.
  Mr. Nabarro: In the Adjournment Debate tonight I should like
  534
  to draw attention to a matter which is rapidly engaging the attention of the agricultural community in all parts of the country. In view of the magnitude of the problem and the brief time at my disposal I intend to confine my remarks to the threat of opencast coal mining on good agricultural land in a particular area of Western Worcestershire, believing that the principles that I enunciate, which are widely supported by hon. Gentlemen on all sides of the House, will be applicable to similar problems which arise in other parts of the country.
  The particular area of Worcestershire is that part which lies to the west of the River Severn and to the north of Malvern, and comprising the Martley and Tenbury Wells Rural Districts and that part of the Kidderminster Rural District west of the River Severn, popularly referred to, upon plans of the area, as the Abberley Hills, the Teme Valley, and the Wyre Forest. I emphasise that at this stage

  535
  there is only a threat of opencast mining in this district, and the threat of trial borings being carried out by the Ministry of Fuel and Power, but that has caused widespread consternation and alarm to the agricultural and residential communities.
  Although the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Fuel and Power, replying to a Parliamentary Question on 8th May, 1950, said that ten sites were to be prospected for opencast mining, I propose tonight to refer to only six which are the principal sites involved. They are the "Crundle" and "The Elms" sites in the parish of Abberley in the Martley rural district area; the "Gybhouse," "Green-way" and "Gorsthill" sites in the parish of Rock in the Kidderminster rural district area; and the "Trial" site in the parishes of Pensax and Abberley respectively in the rural districts of Tenbury Wells and Martley.
  I am not sure whether it is appreciated adequately by the director of opencast mining of the Ministry of Fuel and Power that innumerable attempts have been made over the last 100 to 150 years to mine coal in this area. These attempts have consisted of sinking small pit-shafts, but there has not been deep mining in the sense in which it is understood by hon. Members who represent constituencies in the principal coalfield areas. The pits were tiny in comparison, and employed 12, 20 or 40 men. I believe the largest number employed in any single pit was about 80, and strange to relate, that pit, Bayton, which was the only one known in this district ever to have produced a good, high-quality household coal, was recently shut down by the National Coal Board.
  In this area there are peculiar geological features, all of which militate against opencast mining. I can confidently state that these features have not yet been adequately investigated by the Ministry of Fuel and Power. Firstly, the whole of this area is straddled by a series of major and minor geological faults which cause the coal deposits to be greatly split up and lie in small intersecting seams and deposits, over a wide area.
  The beds associated with these coal deposits are set in a series of "clunches," which is stiff, grey, unlaminated clay that, upon exposure to the atmosphere, as
  536
  would be caused by opencast mining activities, rapidly weathers down to a sticky, boggy viscous mass which would be the worst possible ground upon which to try to operate opencast mining or civil engineering machinery. In addition, the over-burden throughout this area consists of old red sandstone, which is one of the worst types of rock for opencast coal working. The coal seams are thin and narrow. In many cases the seams are only six to 18 inches thick, and the width is no more than a few feet. All seams are badly broken up, and they share the peculiar feature, throughout the area, of interpolation with carbonaceous batt or dirt, which would mean, in the process of opencast coal mining activities that very small quantities of burnable coal would be extracted.
  It has been the experience of all mining engineers in this district, and this is one of the reasons mining has never succeeded in Worcestershire, that the coal is low grade and sulphurous, and is of particularly poor calorific value. In view of the widespread complaints on the subject of dirty coal, I would suggest that this is a major consideration for the Ministry, which is at present contemplating prospecting in this area. Over the whole district there have been nearly 100 attempts to mine coal from shallow pits during the last century. The geological and topographical features of the area, and the escarpment of hills which channels an undue amount of water into any workings, have caused previous deep-mining ventures to fail and would make opencast mining projects particularly hazardous.
  While considering the mineral aspects of this problem I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the location of his existing disposal plants in this area. By this, I mean the facilities for screening and washing the coal extracted. Twenty miles away approximately, at a place called Highley, in South Shropshire, there is one disposal plant. I have made inquiries, and am told that it is loaded to capacity and could take no further tonnage. Elsewhere, the nearest disposal plant is in Staffordshire, in the Borough of West Bromwich, where it serves the Jubilee and Hamstead pits. That is more than 40 miles away. If opencast mining commences in this area, it would need a costly disposal plant. I am informed that the capital value of

  537
  such equipment would run to, possibly, £30,000.
  From the mineral aspects I should like to turn to the agricultural problems involved in this proposal for opencast mining. It is an area of intensive cultivation, and one of exceptional fertility. I imagine that all hon. Members will agree with me when I say that the Vale of Evesham is probably the most fertile agricultural area in the United Kingdom. This area is an extension of the Vale of Evesham, and is really contiguous to it, only separated by the city of Worcester. From replies to questions which I have addressed to the Minister of Agriculture, especially on 20th April and 4th May, it is evident that agricultural production in this area is proceeding at a very high rate. Successful farming is essentially a long-term process, and the mere threat of opencast mining in this area must have a sad psychological effect upon farmers planning for forward food production. Although the Minister of Agriculture has not yet refused to grant a clearance certificate through the local Lands Commission, I hope that as a result of this Debate, and various other efforts which are being made, he will give the matter most careful consideration and weigh the food production likely to be lost against the hazardous value of any coal production that might be derived.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power is, I know, diametrically opposed to my views upon the value of soil restoration following opencast mining activities. All the evidence of the last 12 months suggests that soil restoration is, at the present time, only in its infancy. I am reminded that it is only four weeks ago that I read what the County Agricultural Adviser for Derbyshire had to say. He stated that, with the best methods of soil restoration which had yet been applied in his area, it is exceedingly doubtful if good crops could be grown in the near future, or for some considerable time.
  I would ask hon. Members' indulgence, to quote from the Sixth Report of the Select Committee on Estimates 1948–49 which, after all, is only 12 months old, and to call attention especially to page xiv, paragraph 35. It states:
  "There was a wide diversity of evidence about the effect of open-cast working on the land, both in regard to the danger of subsi-
  538
  dence and the possible loss of fertility. The National Farmers' Union suggested that the loss of fertility was permanent, but sufficient information on this point was lacking."
  Again, in the conclusions and summary of recommendations in this Report of the Select Committee, paragraph 39 (c) on page xv, it is stated:
  "Some loss of agricultural production and discouragement to farmers is entailed at a time when increased food production is of paramount importance, and there may be permanent loss of fertility of the soil."
  Finally, paragraph 40 (7) and (8), on page xvi, states:
  "Investigation into the loss of fertility of restored land should be pressed on, and the necessary research should be undertaken without delay. In view of the unexplained deterioration of fertility after the first year, the Ministry should consider whether an alternative administrative method can be found to deal with long-term restoration, such as allowing County Agricultural Executive Committees to hold the land and to sub-let it at an appropriate rent to the occupier until restoration is satisfactorily completed."
  All of that is borne out in practice.
  There are special problems involved with regard to water supplies in the Abberley Area. On the advice of the Emeritus Professor of Geology at the University of Birmingham, there have been carried out extensive tests to get water in the Abberley district, where the water supply is precarious. The Stationery Office has published a booklet compiled by the Geological Survey, "Wells and Springs in Worcestershire," and there is no doubt that the water supply in the Abberley Hills district, which is the centre of this area, is today quite inadequate for the existing farming and residential requirements.
  A scheme was recently submitted to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health for a piped water supply involving a capital expenditure of £300,000, but it was rejected for various reasons, and I say without hesitation and on sound advice, then even the boring of holes to prospect for opencast mining in the area is likely to cause the drying up of many wells and springs which are the sole sources upon which the farming community and the residential population have to draw at the present time.
  The fourth point I have to make is probably the most important, and I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning for his

  539
  presence at this Debate tonight. It is the Ministry of Town and Country Planning who should be the arbiter in a problem with conflicting interests of this sort. The area of the Abberley Hills, the Teme Valley and the Wyre Forest is referred to in the Abercrombie Report, styled "The West Midlands Plan, 1945," as an area of very great scenic beauty, and is categorised by Sir Patrick Abercrombie as "category A," a special beauty "preserve" in which no extractive industry, no heavy industry, no light industry, no building development and not even a sign post may be erected because of the special scenic amenities of the district. I understand the Ministry of Town and Country Planning uphold the recommendations of that report.
  I believe that this area should be safeguarded because of its special scenic beauty and landscape value, and also because it is particularly heavily wooded. Not only are well timbered districts of great value for agricultural purposes, but it raises the issue that, in the event of opencast mining being carried, it would be manifestly impossible to restore any part of such a well timbered area. This district is vertually a playground and is an area for holidays and recreation, used by hundreds of thousands of industrial workers from Birmingham, the Black Country, South Staffordshire, Kidderminster and other industrial towns in that area. They regard this district as one primarily of scenic value, and one which has always been preserved for their particular interests. I believe that, on those grounds alone, it should be protected from the devastation which would inevitably be caused by opencast coal mining operations.
  Finally, may I sumarise the points? The mineral prospects are extremely hazardous; the agricultural production is, at the present time, exceedingly high; the water supply is precarious; the scenic amenities are such that defilement of them could not possibly find any replacement or restoration in the years immediately ahead; and I say without fear of contradiction that in view of the unanimous resistance to these proposals an impartial public inquiry should be held at Worcester immediately, to determine whether these opencast coal mining proposals should be proceeded with, or not. The Martley rural district, the Tembury Wells rural district,
  540
  the Kidderminster rural district, the Stourport urban district and the Worcestershire county councils, all the local branches of the National Farmers' Union, the National Union of Agricultural Workers and many local associations and bodies are united in their determination to defeat the proposals for opencast coal mining.
  11.34 p.m.
  Mr. George Ward: Just over a year ago I was pleading in this House with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power to protect the amenities of Worcester City by resisting a suggestion to build a gas works alongside a new housing estate. Tonight for a few minutes I want to support my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) in pleading with the same Parliamentary Secretary to protect the amenities of the surrounding countryside, which is unrivalled in its productivity and beauty. This problem concerns Worcester City very deeply; not only because the destinies of the city are very much bound up with the surrounding countryside but also because the area which is threatened by opencast coalmining is a most ideal spot for week-end recreation and relaxation for the people of Worcester City and they are very proud of it.
  On the previous occasion to which I have just referred, I drew the attention of the House to the apparent lack of interest on the part of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning in a problem which was essentially one of national planning. Tonight we have another problem, again essentially a matter of national planning. Here we have a problem of striking a balance between two conflicting interests—agriculture, on the one hand, and coal production, if you call the stuff they dig out of the ground in opencast working coal, on the other hand.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: Slates.
  Mr. Ward: This seems to me to be the ideal example of the sort of problem which should be tackled by the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. The facts of the case have been put before the House very ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster, but it was precisely to deal with this sort of problem

  541
  that the Ministry of Town and Country Planning was originally established. It was set up, surely, to be the guardian of the amenities of countryside and town alike. It was set up to avoid the tragic mistakes which were made when the only considerations or at least the greatest considerations were technical and financial.
  Therefore, it is very disturbing that once again the Ministry of Town and Country Planning appear to be taking very little or no interest in this matter, and so far have taken no action; and I am delighted to see the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning in his place. His Minister, who is new to the job, is not one who has a reputation of being unable to make his voice heard. I do hope that that voice will go booming through the corridors of the Ministry of Fuel and Power, demanding that nothing further be done until the whole matter has been thoroughly considered by his Department, that he will support my hon. Friend's demand for a public inquiry, and that all local interests will be taken into consideration in a fair and democratic way.
  11.37 p.m.
  Mr. Mitchison: I want to ask one question of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. I do not propose at this hour of the night to express any opinion about how far full restoration is possible, but so far as restoration to agricultural use is possible, is it proposed to restore this land in that fashion?
  Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Is it not significant that we have not got a representative of the Ministry of Agriculture here tonight? We have representatives of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning and the Ministry of Fuel and Power, but none from the Ministry of Agriculture.
  11.39 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): Perhaps I may answer first the question of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). Assuming that this opencast working commences and goes on, the restoration would be completed in the manner that my hon, Friend indicates.
  One appreciates the considered speech of the hon. Member for Kidder-
  542
  minister (Mr. Nabarro). I agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Ward) that the hon. Member for Kidderminster put the case well and fairly. If it is of any comfort to him, I have as much opencast coal working in my constituency as anybody. There is always this kind of complaint, and frankly I do not complain about that, because opencast coal mining certainly is not welcomed by anybody or any of the interests to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
  At the same time, whilst he indicated that he was not dealing with opencast coal mining as a whole—and I myself will keep to the points he raised—I ought to put one point. Unless we do get this coal, which we are getting and which is programmed, then it would have a very serious effect indeed upon the country's ability to export the quantities of coal which are being exported at the present time.
  Mr. Bracken: Absolute rubbish‡
  Mr. Robens: I regret that hon. Members opposite do not agree, and that time is not available to pursue the matter, because I am sure that I could convince them, as reasonably-minded men, of the accuracy of my statement. The hon. Member for Kidderminster originally made out a case that there was no coal where we proposed to search. If that is so, he surely should have no objection to our that he is correct, no opencast coal mining will take place and there will be none of the problems which he has raised: there would be no reason for him to pursue the matter.
  In a local sense he has given the House the benefit of his experience and knowledge obtained from local information and mining plans at which he has looked. We obtain our information in the matter principally from the Geological Survey, and in this instance Dr. Mitchell, of the Staffordshire Geological Survey, who has great experience of the area, has indicated that we should find coal, and, indeed, that a main seam of up to 3 feet 6 inches should be found above the hard mine. It is true that there are many faults but that does not necessarily mean it is difficult to get coal by opencast work. Indeed, faults can be helpful in opencast working, just as they can be the reverse in deep mining. The arguments about faults

  543
  do not, therefore, apply in quite the same way as they do when one is talking about deep mining. There are also hard seams which he can expect with a thickness of 10 inches to 2 feet, and I do not think that the clunch will create any real practical difficulty.
  We had many Debates on the matter of opencast coal mining in the last Parliament. Most of the sites were, apparently, beauty spots. At least I never heard of one which was not a beauty spot. and where we were not desecrating the best agricultural land in the country. I think, sometimes, that if ever there were required some really good judges of agricultural land, our Directorate of Opencast Coal should be appointed because, apparently, they find only the best and none of the other kind.
  Despite the fact that we have been told, in terms, that there is no coal and that it is a waste of time looking for it, we have secured millions of tons of coal from areas in which hon. Members and others have told us we should not get coal at all. It seems to me that there can be no real argument at this stage about our looking for coal where the Geological Survey says it might be found. Assuming that we find coal, we shall not immediately start getting that coal.
  544
  Hon. Members have talked about a public inquiry. What happens? We have to consult innumerable people and get clearances before we commence operations. We have to consult the local authority, and, no doubt, they would put precisely the same case as hon. Gentlemen. We have to consult the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, the Land Commissioner of the Ministry of Agriculture, the Divisional Road Engineer of the Ministry of Transport, the Area Telephone Manager of the Post Office, the Regional Officer of the Ministry of Health, and the Chief Inspector of Ancient Monuments of the Ministry of Works. Additionally, we also have discussions with bodies like the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, the Commons, Open Spaces and Footpaths Preservation Society, and local societies if they show any interest in the proposed work.
  Mr. De la Bère: Then why not abandon the ship?
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at a Quarter to Twelve o'Clock.

  ROYAL CORPS OF NAVAL CONSTRUCTORS
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TELEPHONE SERVICE
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  Trade Unions (Recognition)
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  Reception, Suffolk (Complaints)
CIVIL AVIATION
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  Prestwick Airport (Feeder Services)
  B.E.A. (Petrol Cost)
  B.E.A. (Petrol Cost)
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  Corporations (Fares and Freight Rates)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  "Edifas" (Use)
  "Edifas" (Use)
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  Enugu Coalfield, Nigeria (Report)
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  Rice industry, Sierra Leone
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  Malaria, West Africa
MALAYA
  Elections (Liaison Committee's Views)
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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  AIR ACCIDENT AT RINGWAY
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg to ask the following Question of which I have given private Notice: Whether His Majesty's Government have any statement to make upon the publication of the report of the court investigation on the accident to the British European Airways Dakota aircraft G-AHCY, at Ringway on August 19 last.
  THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me this opportunity of making a statement. The report is to be published forthwith, and copies are now available to your Lordships in the Printed Paper Office. The main conclusions, from which I see no reason to dissent, are that while it is impossible to establish with certainty the reason for the accident, it was probably due to an error in navigation, incorrect approach procedure and failure to check the position of the aircraft accurately before the descent from a safe height. The court is of the opinion that the accident was not contributed to by any malfunctioning of the standard beam approach installation.
  The court has made a number of recommendations, mainly of a technical character, with which I need not trouble the House. It considered that the staff of the ground services acted correctly and could not have taken any action by which the accident could have been avoided. It has, however, expressed the opinion that a departmental investigation of the organisation of the Ministry's Northern Divisional Headquarters should be undertaken, because prima facie it appeared to the court that there existed at the headquarters an undesirable atmosphere of complacency as well as a high degree of decentralisation without adequate supervision from the top. I accordingly
  226
  ordered such an investigation, which has now been carried out. As a result, I am satisfied that there was no complacency or undue decentralisation in the organisation but that, before the court inquiry, there had been a certain lack of supervision which had already been corrected by the time of the departmental inquiry. The arrangements now in force should ensure adequate supervision in future.
  I cannot end without repeating my deep sympathy with all those bereaved by this sad accident.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, arising out of the Minister's statement, may I associate myself and noble Lords on this side of the House with the noble Lord and the Government in the expression of sympathy for those who have been bereaved or injured in this tragic accident? Arising from the statement, may I ask the Minister two questions? The first is this. In respect of the court's view that prima facie there were some faults in his Department, is he satisfied that such faults, if existing, could not have had any possible bearing on the accident? The second question is: If, when we have all had time to study this report, we feel that some further information is required, will the Minister be prepared to make a further statement?
  LORD PAKENHAM: The answer to both questions is most certainly in the affirmative.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Does that apply to the first question: that any weaknesses, if they existed, could have had no possible bearing on the accident?
  LORD PAKENHAM: I agree entirely with the court in saying that they could have had no bearing on the accident.

SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL
Read 2a, and committed.
YTNE IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

AUSTRALIAN DERATIONING OF PETROL
2.40 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether the British Government informed the Australian Government that the result of the derationing of petrol in Australia would cost 8,000,000 dollars per annum; whether they are aware that it has been stated that five cargoes of petrol from sterling areas have been refused on the ground that it was not required; and whether a revised estimate of the effect of the abolition of petrol rationing in Australia can be given.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (LORD HOLDEN): My Lords, your Lordships will recognise that decisions on petrol rationing in Australia are entirely a matter for the Australian Government. Nevertheless, as is the custom, the Australian Government discussed this question with the United Kingdom Government before deciding to abandon petrol rationing. In the course of this discussion it was estimated in the United Kingdom, on the basis of the Australian Government's estimate of the likely increase in consumption, that the cost of freeing petrol consumption in Australia would be of the order of 8,000,000 dollars in a full year. Later Australian estimates suggested a smaller increase in consumption. Replying to the last half of the noble Earl's question, I would say that according to the information available to the Government, the five cargoes of petrol to which the noble Earl refers were offered not from sterling areas but from Italian sources.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his answer, may I ask whether he can give any figure to show the actual position with regard to petrol consumption as a result of de-rationing? Has consumption gone up or not?
LORD HOLDEN: My Lords, as the noble Earl is aware, rationing was abolished in Australia as recently as February 8, and therefore at this moment it
228
would be only guesswork to give him an answer to that question.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's statement that the petrol was offered from Italian sources, would he tell us whether or not balances on Italian and British accounts are settled ultimately in dollars?
LORD HOLDEN: My Lords, I regret to inform the noble Lord that at the moment I cannot answer that question, but I will communicate with him later if he wishes to know.

CURRENCY ALLOWANCES FOR TANGIER
2.42 p.m.
EARL MANVERS: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the lack of ceremony with which members of the House of Lords, unconnected with the diamond industry but desirous of visiting the International Zone of Tangier, are treated by the Bank of England; whether requests for currency allotments are sent back marked with a rubber stamp "application not allowed," bearing somebody's initials but without either explanation or apology; why there should be a marked reluctance on the part of British banks to endorse letters of credit or travellers' cheques as payable in Tangier to bona-fide travellers passing through this Zone, with considerable embarrassment to such travellers; and how long the nationalised Bank of England is to be allowed thus to ride rough-shod over the people.]
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, applications submitted to the Bank of England for exchange control purposes in the form of a letter are normally answered by a letter. In the case of applications made on a form, the ruling is normally given on the form itself. In the case of a refusal, the form would be marked "This application is not allowed." This is in accordance with the Bank's practice which has been in operation for a number of years. Your Lordships will appreciate that the Bank deal with many thousands of applications, sometimes at

229
short notice, and it would, therefore, be out of the question for them to write letters of explanation each time an application is refused. If reasons or explanations are subsequently asked for, they are supplied.
Your Lordships will be aware that Tangier is not on the list of countries for which a basic allotment of exchange for pleasure travel is available. The reason for this is that we do not want to increase Tangier's receipts of sterling, as this would tend to depress the value of sterling in relation to dollars and other currencies in the free market. Accordingly, exchange for travel purposes would be granted only for bona-fide business or for some other special reason. British banks would not, of course, endorse letters of credit or travellers' cheques as payable in Tangier unless they had Exchange Control permission to do so in respect of the underlying application.
EARL MANVERS: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, I should like to ask whether the action of the Bank does not offer some incentive to dishonesty.
LORD PAKENHAM: No. We should deplore dishonesty in this connection, as in all other connections.

RENT RESTRICTIONS
2.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the fact that local authorities, in spite of subsidies from the rates and the Exchequer, have been compelled, and are still being compelled, to make substantial increases in their rents, they will, as a temporary measure, allow other property owners to make appropriate increases in order that it may be possible for them to keep their properties in a habitable state.]
LORD KERSHAW: My Lord, the matter raised by the noble Viscount has been engaging the attention of the Government for some time and will be dealt with in the comprehensive survey of the Rent Restrictions Acts which will be undertaken as soon as time permits. I may
230
add, however, that there is no prospect of early legislation being possible.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's reply, I should like to ask whether His Majesty's Government have in mind any interim measure which would prevent property from becoming uninhabitable because the owner was unable to repair it on an economic basis.
LORD KERSHAW: My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord any specific answer, except to say that representations have been made on many occasions to deal with that particular matter, and it will be dealt with in the comprehensive survey.
LORD HAWKE: The noble Lord said "As soon as time permits." May I ask, whose time?
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, it has come to my knowledge that many quite poor people have put all their savings into house property and are now compelled out of very inadequate means to keep those properties in repair. May I ask whether, in such circumstances, the Assistance Board will be allowed to come to their help in order to keep those properties in repair?
LORD KERSHAW: My Lords, the suggestion of the noble Lord is, of course, too novel for a reply at this moment, but it will be within the noble Lord's knowledge that, where houses were restricted before September, 1939, in some cases there has been an allowance of up to 40 per cent., and in some cases 48 per cent., for the purpose of repairs.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, would the noble Lord be prepared to represent to the Secretary of State for Scotland that Scotland should have better treatment than England in this connection?
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, would the noble Lord be prepared to consider cases that I may be able to submit to him from my voluminous correspondence on this subject?
LORD KERSHAW: My Lords, without giving any promise at this stage I shall be glad if the noble Lord will send to me any particular case which he has in mind.
LORD SALTOUN: I thank the noble Lord very much.

POLICE PENSIONS REGULATIONS, 1950
2.48 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think I am right in saying that these regulations are non-controversial, and I need do no more than move formally that they be approved. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last be approved.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I take it that the Scottish regulations will be moved separately and that these are regulations to make the necessary provision for men coming from the Ulster Constabulary and from the Overseas Forces.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on the first point raised by the noble Lord, the arrangements proposed are reciprocal. Members of the Police Forces in Northern Ireland can, under the new regulations, come to Great Britain and join the Forces here, and vice versa. Years of service in either country will count in the assessment of pensions. On the other point the regulations provide for police officers who are being returned from Germany and who have received higher pay. They are to receive special consideration, both as to payment of a lump sum and, where earned, a higher superannuation rate.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POLICE PENSIONS (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS, 1950
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Special Order also be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last be approved.—(Lord Morrison.)
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I notice that the form is slightly different in this case, and I should like to ask whether there is in fact any difference between the two countries, and also whether the Order has been generally agreed to by the Police Council in Scotland.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, these regulations are substantially the same as those for England and Wales, except that the latter contain provisions which amend certain English regulations which have no counterpart in the Scottish regulations. In reply to the second question put by the noble Lord, I should like to add that, as required by Section I of the Police Pensions Act, 1948, the Scottish Police Council have been consulted about these regulations and have given their approval.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NAVY ESTIMATES
2.51 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM rose to call attention to the Memorandum on Naval Estimates recently presented, and to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the proposals therein contained are adequate for the defence of the country; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in the first place I should like to make it clear that we appreciate very much the greater detail and the increase in the information which has been given to us in the Statement on the Navy Estimates this year compared with last year. We still feel, however, that the information falls short in certain important and, I would say, vital particulars. On the question of the adequacy of the Estimates as a whole, I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is satisfied that no slowing down in the modernisation and reconditioning of the Fleet will occur owing to these somewhat limited funds which are to be put at the disposal of the Admiralty in this financial year. It is, of course, of first and vital importance that this modernisation should be completed in the shortest possible time. We must not find that when a crisis occurs, as it may well occur in the near future, only half the work has been completed. It will then be too late to vote additional money and expect the Fleet to put to sea with modern equipment in a few weeks.
When I speak of modernisation of the Fleet, I am not including the battleships; it is the modernisation of our cruisers, our aircraft carriers and our destroyers, and all that goes with our anti-submarine forces, which is so urgently required. I am certainly not advocating that the

233
Navy should benefit at the expense of the other two Services. On the contrary, I should say that we must guard against an unbalance of our Forces which might be brought about by misguided public opinion. It is perhaps natural that the public are much more mindful of the bombing which they suffered during the last war than of the submarines which threatened their existence just as much. Therefore, there may be a tendency to turn towards the air for their salvation. The Parliamentary Secretary of the Admiralty in another place, said:
"Clearly, the Navy is not getting enough money."
Though to be fair, I should perhaps add his further words that:
"No Service Department ever does get enough money."
None the less, it is of vital importance that the Navy is always, at any time and in any emergency, able to carry out its time-honoured rôle, which I think remains unchanged, in spite of the menace from the air, and in spite of the production of new weapons. I need hardly remind your Lordships that this rôle is to keep open our lines of communication, to ensure the free movement of our convoys and to destroy the enemy whenever he appears, either above or below the surface.
I do not deny that air power is of tremendous assistance in the narrow seas, but it can never do all that is required for the protection of our convoys in the oceans of the world. The day when troops, stores and raw materials—the sinews of war—may be carried by air is still far distant and may, of course, never materialise. Therefore, ships grouped in numbers of small convoys will still require protection from submarines and fast surface raiders. I would say that such protection can be maintained night and day, in fair weather and foul, only by fast escort vessels supported by sea-borne aircraft, although, as in the last war, shore-based aircraft can be of immense assistance, when conditions are suitable. We all know that certain criticisms have been levelled from time to time at the use of aircraft carriers, but the fact remains that it was effectively demonstrated in the last war that the aircraft carriers could remain in a given area in all weathers, when shore-based aircraft would be quite unable to do so. So far
234
as I know, nothing has altered that position to-day. I have mentioned a large number of small convoys because I have little doubt that the advent of the atomic bomb will mean that we must disperse our ships more than we have done in the past. This in turn must mean a great increase in the number of escort vessels which we shall require.
During the recent debate on the Navy Estimates in another place, a new and perhaps more ingenious method of lulling the nation to sleep with regard to our anti-submarine escort vessels was tried out by His Majesty's Government. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty pointed out that there are three types of submarines to guard against to-day. First, there is the conventional type as used in the early days of the last war. Secondly, there is the fast battery-driven type, which of course is merely the conventional type of submarine boosted in speed for a limited period, perhaps while making an attack or a getaway. Thirdly, there is the submarine capable of sustaining high speeds under water. The Parliamentary Secretary indicated that our existing escort vessels were quite capable of dealing with the major number of submarines in existence to-day. Assuming this estimate to be true, there is unfortunately no guarantee that the minority of high-speed submarines will be in one area and the majority of slow submarines in another. Surely, our escort vessels must be capable of dealing efficiently with the most modern submarines at any time and in any area. Can the First Lord indicate whether our existing escort vessels are capable of dealing with the boosted, battery-driven type of submarine, and whether there is any reason to suppose that Russia would have any difficulty in converting her submarines to the boosted type? I have little doubt that our existing escort vessels are certainly not capable of dealing with the conventional type of submarine which has been boosted for high speed. It may well be that Russia has already converted a large proportion of her conventional type of submarines to the boosted type. That is the great danger that we face in the very near future.
Then, of course, there are the submarines which are capable of sustained high speeds under water. The Parliamentary Secretary in another place has indicated that only a certain number of

235
these submarines are at sea. As they are only of the experimental type, I do not want to spend much time on them to-day. I understand, however, that it may be only a short time before there will be one or two very effective models afloat. We have heard only recently that the United States Navy is engaged on building an atomic-driven submarine. I fully appreciate that the Admiralty policy is to meet this menace of the boosted type of submarine by building new frigates and converting existing escort vessels. We were told last year that this was the policy. The question is: Have the two conversions promised in last year's Estimates been completed, and have satisfactory trials taken place? Then there are the two new escort vessels which, according to the Estimates, are to be laid down this year. I hope we shall hear from the First Lord that propelling machinery has been provided and also the armaments and radar fittings which are so necessary; otherwise I cannot help feeling that these ships will be little more than ships on paper, and for a long time.
I think many of your Lordships are very disturbed at the lack of provision for high-speed escort vessels. It is true that we cannot spend unlimited money on such vessels, but it may well be that we are trying to produce a Rolls Royce type of escort vessel rather than Ford car vessels. I suggest that what we require is a large number of easily built high-speed escort vessels embodying the main essentials in anti-submarine work and protection from aircraft, and with all other fittings and gear reduced to a bare minimum so that building costs are kept as low as possible. There is another point. It appears that during the last twelve months we have transferred to India three destroyers. Surely this is a further unnecessary depletion of our few fast vessels which can be used for escort purposes and which are capable of dealing with the modern boosted submarine, especially when there is no guarantee that in the event of hostilities these vessels will be available in Europe.
I am afraid I cannot say that I am filled with optimism after reading the publication on the Navy Estimates for this year. One has only to look at the building programme to find that the building of our three new cruisers has been suspended for the second time.
236
Your Lordships will remember it was suspended at the time of last year's Navy Estimates. We are now reduced to a total of fourteen cruisers on active service. Many of those are old, and those which are in reserve are very old and out of date, too. I believe it to be true that the Russians now have almost the same number of cruisers afloat that we have. Can the First Lord give any indication as to when further work will take place on these three cruisers? I think they are known as "Defence," "Tiger" and "Blake." The "Defence" was launched in 1944 and the "Tiger" and "Blake" in 1945. Surely it is high time that these vessels were completed.
I have already suggested that in the case of escort vessels it might be wise to concentrate on the production of a large number of simple-type vessels, and the same argument might well apply in the future to the provision of naval aircraft for anti-submarine work. I believe it is true that owing to its weight the new all-purpose G.17 naval aircraft can land on the flight decks of only the largest aircraft carriers, the fleet carriers, which are, of course, large, vulnerable and expensive ships. I do not deny that a number of fleet carriers are certainly necessary; but might it not be wise to concentrate more on the production of a large number of simple type naval aircraft, with the minimum fittings, for antisubmarine work, which can land on the decks of not only fleet and light fleet carriers but also, possibly, of escort carriers? In fact, where are the escort carriers which I suggest are so vitally necessary for the protection of our convoys, and which will be required to sail with them again, as in the past? According to the Estimates there appears to be only one such vessel, and she is to be loaned to the Festival of Britain for two years. I suggest that it is of the first importance that protection for the numerous convoy groups which will be required in the event of another war should include not only high-speed escort vessels, but also escort carriers, with, of course, their complement of aircraft ready to search for and strike at a submarine at a moment's notice.
There also appears to be no mention in the Navy Estimates of the provision of light coastal forces, which did such magnificent work in the narrow seas during the last war. I hope the First

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Lord will be able to give an assurance to-day that such a provision is not being neglected, and that modern small vessels will be laid down from time to time whenever possible. I notice the Estimates mention that one motor torpedo boat has been accepted into the naval service during the last twelve months, but there appear to be no other vessels coming forward. Surely we should not neglect to build up a large number of these very important small craft? I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to our minesweeping fleet, which is of such importance for keeping our harbours open and the approach channels clear of mines. According to the statement in the Estimates, we are now transferring or have transferred six fleet sweepers to Belgium and another one to Iran. While appreciating that Belgium is one of the Benelux countries and a staunch ally of ours, I should like to inquire whether it is considered that we have sufficient minesweepers for our own use to keep our channels open. I would suggest that the numbers indicated in the statement indicate otherwise. In fact, in the last war it was found that ten sweepers were required to keep even one channel open for a limited period.
Now I should like to turn to a more cheerful note, and say that we appreciate the economies that have taken place in the Admiralty by the reduction in staff. Of course, even now, as the First Lord will know, the staff is two and a half times greater than it was before the war; but I hope this figure will be progressively reduced, so that the officers concerned can get to sea and not remain behind propping up office stools. I am sure we are all pleased to learn that a committee has been set up to study the question of re-engagements. I hope that this committee will make an early report and that they are, in fact, considering the short-term engagements which were so successful in the American Navy. It is evident that economies are to be made by the closing down of the Rosyth Depôt and the Bermuda Dockyard. I can well understand that the Bermuda Dockyard is a very expensive commitment which may well be closed down for large repair work, but it seems a pity that reduced facilities could not be maintained there for repairs to escort vessels and even to destroyers. Those facilities might be
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of the greatest value in the event of another emergency, because we may not always be able to rely on American yards to refit our escort vessels in that theatre of operations. As regards Rosyth, I should like to ask the First Lord how it is proposed that the naval forces in Scotland will be mobilised in the event of war. It might be quite impossible to send these men South when the ports in the South may be under heavy aerial bombardment.
Now, for a few moments, I come to the question of man-power. I hope the First Lord will be able to tell us to-day more about the proposal to reduce the Navy's intake of National Service men from last year's figure of about 10,000 to 2,000. From the actual efficiency point of view, no doubt we should like to retain the 2,000, but I think the real question is, where are the R.N.V.R men to come from unless we have a fairly large intake of National Service men? I hope that we shall hear something also about naval aviation, especially with regard to the reported shortage of pilots, and what steps are being taken to reduce that shortage. There is one other point, perhaps more appropriate to a debate on foreign affairs than on Navy Estimates, but which I should like to mention—namely, the reported establishment of a Russian submarine base on an island near the Albanian coast, at the entrance to the Adriatic. I believe this question was raised in another form during a similar debate on Navy Estimates last year, or in the Defence debate, but no satisfactory or full reply was given. I hope that it may be possible for His Majesty's Government either to deny or to confirm this report.
I realise that I have put a number of searching questions to His Majesty's Government, but I hope that on this occasion it will be possible for me to receive adequate replies, especially as regards the provision of high-speed escort vessels, and ships for minesweeping purposes. May I digress for a moment? In the old days it was possible to make use of fishing trawlers for minesweeping purposes, but this would be very difficult to-day. We now require well-built ships, equipped in a highly scientific way for minesweeping. We on this side of the House fully realise the need for economy, but surely it will be false economy if we

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do not provide for the minimum requirements in escort vessels and minesweepers to protect our vast merchant fleet on the high seas. We feel that this provision has not yet been made.
In conclusion, I should like to put forward a word of warning. There is little doubt that the main occupation of His Majesty's Government at the present time is the economic condition of the country. No doubt that is a very laudable and necessary occupation. But I suggest that we must not blind ourselves with these preoccupations to the fact that the real and paramount danger is that possibly in three years time, when Russia may be at the peak of her production and supply, we shall have war, unless in the meantime we create a defence which will be so strong that the enemy cannot be reasonably sure of success. I maintain that we have not yet realised that degree of strength and preparation in our Naval Forces which will keep us free from the appalling calamity of war. I beg to move for Papers.
3.12 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGIhad given notice of his intention to call attention to modern developments in submarines and methods of defence; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has just given us a very interesting speech, but it has been one of almost unrelieved gloom. The only time he seemed to cheer up was when he congratulated my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty on economies in the Admiralty. I suppose that, like all serving officers, Lord Teynham has an ancient feud against the gentlemen in the "stone frigates," and I can understand his joy at the fact that some of them have been sent off to sea again. I was glad that he dealt in a part of his speech with the submarine question. I have on the Order Paper a Motion following his, which deals with that question, but with your Lordships' leave I do not propose to move it. If I may, however, I will address my remarks largely to that subject.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, says that the principal anxiety of His Majesty's Government relates to the economic situation. I should have thought that it was the Parliamentary situation with which
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they were chiefly pre-occupied. Their principal pre-occupation, I should have imagined, would be to see whether somehow or other they could stave off a general Election, at any rate until some time towards the end of this year. However, that has nothing to do with the Navy Estimates or the strength of the Fleet. With some of the forebodings and misgivings expressed by Lord Teynham, I must say that I feel a certain sympathy. It is always the case that after a great war the Services are bound to suffer. I am afraid that has been particularly the case with regard to the Navy. It happened after the Napoleonic Wars, after the First World War, and now we see the same thing occurring again. I think that we in your Lordships' House can all do a service to the country by emphasising the old principles of sea power and their tremendous importance to this country, hoping that when times are better the Fleet will be strengthened and kept in an up-to-date condition. I know that that is the view of His Majesty's Government and certainly of my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Before I come to the very important question of submarine defence may I make two general observations? First, I am glad to see that a naval squadron is to visit ports in Yugoslavia. Visits of this sort always do good. Naval men have ever been our best ambassadors abroad; we have cemented friendships with many countries by timely visits from the Fleet. I hope that the Navy will find occasion and opportunity to visit as many other ports abroad as possible, particularly in the Iron Curtain countries. I should like to see them going to the ports of Poland and, if they can get into the Black Sea, to Roumanian ports. They can do no harm and they will probably do a great deal of good in promoting better understanding with other countries in these difficult times.
The other general observation which I wish to make is upon a matter which has already been touched upon by Lord Teynham—the tremendous changes in naval technique which he and I have seen in our short lives. They have been simply amazing, particularly in the last few years. But, as he has said, they do not, in any way, alter the main principles of naval strategy. In the course of history we have seen great changes in sea

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methods. There has been the transition from the galley to the sailing ship, and from the sailing ship to vessels propelled by steam and the internal combustion engine. Presently, no doubt, we shall have atomic weapons and all that they mean. But none of these things has affected the main principles—which are these. An island Power like ourselves must be able to keep open the sea routes and to deny them to the enemy. On that our whole power and security rest. All these technical changes do not in the least alter that fundamental fact.
As to the great immediate developments that appear to lie ahead, so far as I can gather from a study of technical journals, and from reading the rather fuller information which we get from the United States (I notice that Congress is treated to rather more information than Parliament gets from my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, but perhaps that is unavoidable in the United States), it seems that, apart from the continued improvement and enlargement of aviation, which of course is tremendously important, two great developments of the future appear to be guided missiles and the more modern types of submarine, which have been referred to by Lord Teynham, and were also dealt with at considerable length during the interesting debates in another place. I understand that my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty is prepared to enlarge somewhat on the necessarily brief statement which was made in the other House by his Parliamentary Secretary on this vitally important question of defence against submarines.
With regard to the guided missiles, it seems to me, from the evidence which can be collected, that there is a distinct possibility that these will replace cannon altogether. If that development is coming along—and as experiments proceed, that seems to be indicated—there is a very strong case for the Admiralty not to lay down a great many new ships at the present time; and there is a very good answer to Lord Teynham. I suggest that we should do well to hold our hands in the matter of new construction until we see how these new weapons are to be developed and how far our experimental research services have advanced in building them up. I notice that the United States Navy—this was announced to
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Congress—is to spend no less than 40,000,000 dollars on converting one heavy cruiser into a guided-missile ship. That is a tremendous sum, and the decision to spend it in this way shows the great intricacy of this problem and the complicated armaments that are apparently to be put into this vessel. I understand that we exchange information with the United States Naval Staff, and I think it would be true economy to wait and see what happens to this guided-missile vessel before we embark on a big programme of building large ships at the enormous prices which with their present-day equipment they now cost.
With regard to the submarine situation, the information given to Congress by the United States Navy Chiefs is again interesting. It is announced that the United States Navy is to build an atomic power-propelled submarine which will cost 40,000,000 dollars. They are also to build a 250-ton submarine, quite a small vessel, which is to cost no less than 3,000,000 dollars. The cost of construction of these modern ships gives us every reason for holding our hand, if we can, until we are quite certain of the designs we need. The United States Navy is also to build a 2,200-ton submarine with secret power plant. Whether this is atomic energy, some form of jet propulsion, or some new fuel such as high-test peroxide, I do not know, but the vessel will cost 37,000,000 dollars. The U.S. Navy is also converting a number of existing submarines to the Schnorkel type which the Germans developed towards the end of the Second World War.
Before I leave the United States, I would make one other comment. It is sad to have to make comparisons with a war-time Ally, Russia, but the situation is as it is, and we have to deal with it. Admiral Sherman, the Chief of Naval Operations, has informed Congress that the Russians are known to have more than 270 submarines in their flotillas. That is a tremendous number. At the beginning of the Second World War, the Nazis had fifty-seven. It is true that they were modern-type submarines, because Germany began to build submarines against all the treaty restrictions only a few years before the Second World War; and they did a large amount of damage. These are the Russian figures, on the authority of the Chief of Naval

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Operations of the United States Navy. These are all items of information that I have marshalled to illustrate the progress of developments at sea; and I have given their sources.
Now, what of our own Navy? On Pages 7 and 8 of the Statement which my noble friend issued with the Estimates, it is stated that we are studying the effect of attack by submarines of high underwater speed, submerged endurance and capacity for deep diving. On page 8 it is stated that:
"The greater underwater threat of the future demands increased ranges of underwater protection, new ahead-thrown weapons, homing torpedoes and fast submarines capable of meeting an enemy on terms at least of equality."
The Statement goes on to talk about the great deal of research work in progress. The impression I have formed from studying the Estimates and the accompanying Statement, and the debate in another place is that while we are very active in research and experiment, and are spending a great deal of money and energy—quite rightly—on these Services, the actual construction programme is rather modest. And I gather that was the complaint of the noble Lord who opened the debate. On page 6 of the Statement, for example, reference is made to two escort vessels of new design. We are converting altogether five destroyers into makeshift frigates—I say "makeshift" because obviously they must be a compromise. The need for fast escort vessels is so great that we have had to convert destroyers. In the debate on the Navy Estimates in another place, the Parliamentary Secretary said that the first new anti-submarine frigate is already under way. The first! These are very small numbers and they seem to indicate a very modest programme. It is also said that the Admiralty are considering a simple design of anti-submarine frigate. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, noticed that statement, but he called for a simpler design of frigate, and as apparently the Admiralty think with him perhaps he will cheer up a little on that account.
I should like to ask my noble friend the only question to which I should like a definite answer. I asked the same question in the last debate that we had on Defence. Have we ready for immediate
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action, for split-second action, an anti-submarine striking force, both air-borne and sea-borne? In the present state of affairs, that is obviously an inescapable necessity. We must have a force ready, prepared to go into action without any delay at all. The same applies to the minesweeping force. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and all noble Lords will agree with me that the minesweeping force must be equally ready to go into action at once in case of trouble. Let me look at the figures of our active fleet—thirty-four destroyers and twenty-seven frigates. These are modest numbers, and I presume a good many of these ships are on foreign stations.
May I make some modest suggestions about dealing with the submarine menace, and I include in that the submarine mine menace, because the laying, of mines by submarines was a serious threat in both world wars and will be again? In the early days of the submarines, when I was a very young officer, those who went into that Service were proud of themselves; and they were fine fellows. They called themselves "the Trade." They used to boast, some of them, that one day all war vessels would be submarines, or at any rate submersibles. Their prophecy has not quite come true, but the fighting of submarines by submarines did come true in both wars. Particularly in the First World War our submarines made many "kills" by lying submerged in ambush, so to speak, on the exit routes or homing routes of German submarines and torpedoing them. In the First World War, in 1916 to be exact, I put forward suggestions, not entirely my own for they were the result of team work, for a special submarine to be used as a submarine killer and having a number of small torpedo tubes with which it could fire a cluster of small, fast, short-range torpedoes. We may now talk of homing torpedoes as that is no longer a secret. I believe that the perfection of homing torpedoes will make the construction of the anti-submarine, or perhaps I should say counter-submarine submarines, which I suggest more attractive. The use of a 21-inch torpedo in the First World War by ambushing submarines was a waste when a 14-inch torpedo would have done perfectly well. I think that that suggestion should be reviewed and the results turned up and examined.

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In addition to homing torpedoes, which add to the efficacy of such a vessel in attacking other submarines, we have continual advances in radar and we are getting over some of the difficulties in detecting under-water bodies from bodies themselves submerged. If this improvement in radar continues, and the scientists make progress at the rate they are doing, it should be possible for a submerged vessel—in other words one of our own submarines—to detect an enemy submarine at a considerable distance. If we can do that and, as I say, have a large number of small fast torpedoes to fire at them, I believe that we shall have a useful weapon against enemy submarines. If we can combine all this with a close working together with our aircraft—and that means continuous and intensive training—then we shall have something. I again throw out the germ of this idea, after thirty-four years, to my noble friend and his professional advisers.
Generally speaking, however, I do not see any great need for alarm. We still have the great asset of our geographical position—and as we are bound to talk of fighting a Baltic Power (I again regret that we have to do so) then our geographical position is even more favourable than it would be in a contest with a North Sea Power. I see that my noble friend the First Sea Lord, Lord Fraser, has gone on record in the Press as saying that he does not believe that any nation possesses a submarine capable of twenty-five knots submerged—that was the figure used to raise the hairs of the Faithful Commoners the other day. But if the noble Lord, Lord Fraser, says that, it is good enough evidence for me. From what I know of advances in submarines since they became a feasible proposition in about the year 1910, it will need tremendous technical achievements and a great deal of time to produce a large vessel capable of proceeding at twenty-five knots submerged. I am not particularly alarmed about that supposed threat. However, I think we shall all agree that, whereas it has always been said—and it is true to-day—that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance, it is also true that our liberty has always been bound up with our sea power, and that the price of Admiralty is also eternal vigilance.
3.33 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I feel that all your Lordships will be grateful
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to the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, for bringing forward this Motion, which he has done in a speech of remarkable brevity but one in which, none the less, he managed to touch upon every vital question which is uppermost in naval circles to-day. I thought the noble Lord was a little more perturbed about the transfer of some destroyers to India than about the placing of an escort carrier at the disposal of the Festival of Britain, which perhaps indicates that he has some hopes of the Festival of Britain, but not much hope of India. Some of us might be inclined to put it the other way round. I noticed, too, that the noble Lord at one moment apologised for having to touch upon a point perhaps more in the sphere of foreign affairs than of naval matters. I feel that that is inevitable in a debate upon any defence subject. All defence subjects are now so interlocked with foreign policy and, for that matter, interlocked with each other, that it is almost impossible to discuss the Navy Estimates without bringing in questions affecting other Services as well.
I have noticed with regret that the Navy Estimates never seem to arouse the interest in public opinion which they ought to arouse. It is perhaps for that reason that we always begin a war with the most disastrous shipping losses, which hamper every overseas operation which follows and consequently prolong the war to a far greater length than it need be. Fundamentally, war is the affair of statesmen, who must decide their policies before the heads of the Armed Forces can begin to consider their strategy. These things have to be thought out in peace time—and I am afraid some of us occasionally fail to notice any signs of much thinking being done. As a matter of fact, the lack of statesmen who think out these questions in peace time can prove just as dangerous as the lack of essential weapons when war comes. The hallmark of a statesman in these matters is that he thinks in terms of realities and does not procrastinate. I would like to remind some of them of the saying of the old Greek poet:
"The procrastinating man is ever struggling with ruin."
Unfortunately, it is the country which has to struggle with the ruin which the procrastinator all too often produces.

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To-day we are faced with the fact that the cold war is growing more and not less threatening. The deadlock between East and West remains, and we must take care lest the Welfare State mentality dulls the ears to world affairs. We must face up to realities in these matters. I noticed that the other day the Minister of Fuel and Power, talking of these things, said that the one hope lies in the development of the United Nations Organisation. Which of your Lordships would be prepared to endorse that statement? I feel that statements of that nature only encourage the unscrupulous to steal a march upon the scrupulous Government. I would commend to Mr. Noel-Baker the words used by the late Lord Balfour. Speaking of such organisations, committees, conferences and so on, he said:
"These demonstrations just put up a painted screen, painted to delude people of good will all over the world into thinking that something is really being done, while behind the paper screen the forces of militarism are sharpening their knives."
In this connection let it be remembered that the war of the future will give us less chance than ever to build up security after the war has started, as we have done in the past. We have in recent years been passing through a period in which the political direction of the Ministry of Defence and of the defence ministries has encountered severe criticisms. I am not competent to decide whether or not those criticisms are well merited, but that they exist is certainly known to us all. It has been said that we have not been getting value for the money we have been spending on defence. Indeed, I heard one cynical remark to the effect that we have been "Spending on defence more than we can afford, but not enough for security." I remember in our last debate on defence matters I heard one speaker say that the defence arrangements of the Atlantic Pact or Western Defence were all harness and no horse. I found myself wondering if we had a cart to put before the "no horse." I know that the Air League of Great Britain has said that the
"present provisions for national defence, instead of reflecting bold decisions, represent an unsatisfactory compromise which fails entirely to take account of the conditions of the war of the future."
War has become a very scientific business, yielding huge dividends to re-
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sourcefulness—that resourcefulness which is the child of education allied to scientific skill—and I hope that those who are directing our preparations at the present moment have that type of mind. But the essential point that we have to bear in mind in these debates upon defence matters seems to me to be that the cold war is here to stay, and it is likely to get worse. Therefore, defence should be a major, if not the major, consideration. At the present moment the West has no defence except the American atomic bombs, and it is a dangerous illusion to put our trust into talks and committees, and so forth, which have no "teeth" and which lack modern weapons.
In this respect, what are our naval requirements to-day? They have been touched upon by previous speakers. I speak, of course, not solely from the national point of view because we have to approach these questions now from the point of view of Western Defence. Our naval requirements seem to me to be naval forces capable of assuming the mastery of the seas, of supporting overseas operations and also of providing—an important matter—adequate naval transports in order to move men and materials quickly where the overseas operations require. If those are the requirements, it seems to me that the prime naval tasks depend upon our antisubmarine measures. We must remember that practically up to the very end of the last war, when it was clear that we were on top and saw victory approaching rapidly, nevertheless successful submarine attacks were being made upon our shipping. The anti-submarine aircraft must be ready at full strength from the word "Go"; the Fleet Air Arm, in my humble opinion, should be expanded for its anti-submarine tasks, and the anti-submarine flotillas must be built up and bases provided. I do not know what our Allies are doing in this respect. Quite conceivably, it would not be judicious to inquire too fully into that matter, but I did notice the other day that the Dutch are replanning and expanding their Den Helder base, and are clearly preparing to make their contribution to the naval requirements of Western Defence. But it is the fact that neither sea nor land operations can be developed with full efficiency until a favourable air situation is created. That is why, in my opinion, this question of bases deserves equal attention with that

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of the provision of aircraft and of the anti-submarine flotillas.
With your Lordships' permission, I should like to call attention to some information which I have received concerning a great amphibious exercise which was carried out in March by the Americans—an exercise called "Portrex." I venture to call attention to it because I think that the lessons which the Americans have drawn from that great exercise do throw into relief the naval requirements which we have been discussing to-day. This exercise extended for over a fortnight and personnel numbering 80,000 were engaged. The exercise bore some resemblance to the Salerno and Normandy landings, but was brought up to date in the light of new weapons. Certainly one of the impressions gained was that those new weapons will make such landings as those at Salerno and Normandy quite impossible in any future war unless, for instance, anti-submarine protection is enormously improved. Unless that is done, it is felt that we are not likely to see another such amphibious operation.
The exercise was planned to represent an overseas assault upon a distant shore, so the Navy had the leading rôle to play in the early and middle phases of the exercise. The assaulting force enjoyed heavy superiority, and effected its approach successfully. It landed a small airborne force and then sent landing parties in, supporting them by ship bombardment, and reinforcements were sent in until the beachhead was secured. The interesting point is that the conclusion drawn was that although that was done, and even with the balance heavily in favour of the assaulting force, the umpires ruled severe losses at sea. Nevertheless, in spite of those heavy losses at sea, the lesson was judged to be that while it will be different from 1945, and while it will require great modifications from 1945, yet the Navy's rôle will continue to be of major character. if only because of the seaborne requirements entailed by the movement of large reinforcements and supplies.
I am told that the following were the main lessons which were learnt from this exercise: that the vulnerability of an assaulting force had increased; that offensive weapons have completely outstripped the defensive weapons of surface vessels; that the submarines inflicted
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what are described as staggering losses while themselves evading detection and destruction. In this particular sphere the defence has been a completely out-stripped. It was said also that the newest aeroplanes can pierce the defence screen often enough to inflict insupportable losses; that the guided missile constitutes a powerful weapon against other objectives than aircraft—namely, against surface vessels; that the defence against the submarine, the newest aircraft and the guided missile, still falls most uncomfortably short of what is necessary. I will not deal with other lessons which were learnt, important though I believe them to be, because they do not directly affect naval issues and I do not want to detain your Lordships too long. But another lesson was this: that the airborne forces first landed are doomed unless they are rapidly and continuously given the means to drive the enemy away. This problem becomes more acute, and it is said that these reinforcements must come from Navy carriers. Another interesting point is that it was said that the exercise showed a great improvement in unification of operations, and that all tactical air units, Navy or Air Force, were commanded by one man. This was considered to be a most satisfactory feature of the exercise.
Therefore, summing up, if these lessons have been correctly interpreted by those who had to judge, the conclusions would appear to be these: that such grand-scale combined operations as represented by these exercises demand a more complete command of the sea than the modern submarines—the Schnorkel submarine in particular—will allow, while the atomic bomb automatically rules out large concentrations; that the opening phases of overseas operations must be far more an affair of the air than heretofore (it follows that the handicaps mentioned must be overcome before such operations can be undertaken): that the tactics, as well as the equipment and techniques of air assaults, must be modified—an airborne invasion must be self-supporting, and the initial air drop must be quickly supported by airborne reinforcements; and that, amphibious landings such as the last war saw seemingly being ruled out, the burden of invasion will fall on paratroopers and on airborne forces. Under existing conditions, such forces are very vulnerable and must be reinforced quickly, and that

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can be done only from Navy carriers. It follows, therefore, that the Navy still has a vital part to play in protecting and delivering the vast supplies and reinforcements which are necessary. This is an immense responsibility, and defence against the submarine is essential in order to discharge it.
I trust I have not wearied your Lordships by relating at some length the lessons drawn by acute and skilled observers from this most interesting exercise. Perhaps the information has been a propos, because I feel it adds great weight and support to many of the points brought out by the two previous speakers.
3.52 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I wish to deal in the main with only one small matter this afternoon. But I should like first to say that I found the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Winster, most interesting; certainly, it interested me very much to hear the results of that large United States naval exercise in the Pacific. I think there will not be any dissent in this House from the words of the noble Lord to the effect that the Navy still has a vital part to play in our defence. It has always been so, and always will, so long as arms are necessary in this world at all. There is only one point upon which perhaps I disagree with the noble Lord. He suggested that the Navy was never ready, and that we always lost some ships at the beginning of a war. I think I am right in saying that in the last two wars in which we have been engaged, the Navy has been far more ready than either of the other two Services. I certainly speak with some knowledge when I say that that was the case in the last war; and it enabled us to build up our security here after the war had started.
I agree with the noble Lord that circumstances are changing now, and that a far greater responsibility rests upon the Royal Air Force and their counter-bombing measures than ever existed before. I should, therefore, like to see the Royal Air Force have in the future only two functions—that of Fighter Command and that of Bomber Command. In my view the time has come for the situation to be reviewed as to whether the Fleet Air Arm ought not to take over the anti-submarine patrol and attack operations
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which were carried out in the last war by Coastal Command. These matters should not be settled for all time. There was considerable doubt in the minds of those who had to decide just before the last war whether that function, as well as the duties carried out by ship-borne aircraft, should not go to the Royal Navy. At any rate, that would enable one commander to be in control. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, pointed out the advantage there was in having one Commander in the American operation, and equally it may be well to have one man, say in the Western Approaches to be the commander not only of destroyers and other anti-submarine vessels but equally of the anti-submarine forces that fly in the air. I agree that there is no doubt that the time will shortly come when that matter will have to be reviewed.
But I did not rise, as I say, to take part in the general debate. I desire rather to speak for one small but important body of men—the Department of the Civil Engineer-in-Chief. I raised this question on May 11 of last year and the noble Viscount, as one would expect, gave me a courteous reply. He promised to carry out the suggestion I made, that he should see the Civil Engineer-in-Chief to ascertain whether anything could be done to relieve the difficulties which had arisen in connection with the salary scale. I wish to say now only that the first time that this matter—which affects a highly skilled body of professional men who are good servants of the Admiralty and of the State—was raised as long ago as 1938. I saw the men (I was Civil Lord at the time) and started the necessary negotiations with the Treasury. Before these negotiations could be concluded, I was transferred to another Department; and shortly after that the war came, and the whole matter was put aside to be dealt with after the War.
I want now to bring the matter up to date. In October, 1946, the Treasury issued new salary scales for these men. There are only twenty-four of them, and the scale was to take effect retrospectively from January 1, 1946. It is true that the scales were not agreed by the Institution of Professional Civil Servants, but they were much better than those on which this body of men had been working. I would remind your Lordships that these scales have not been altered for forty years. Forty years ago these men were

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responsible for about £1,000,000 worth of civil construction, work. They are now responsible for about £10,000,000 worth a year. In the war they were responsible for about £36,000,000 worth. When one realises the value of the pound now as compared with its value in, say, 1910, one realises what that postponement means. These scales were put forward by the Treasury in 1946. They were put forward by the Government and at the same time as they were promulgated there were new salary scales for the administrative and scientific grades of the Civil Service. There was no delay in putting into effect the new scales for the scientific classes and the administrative grades, but to this day the civil engineers have never had these salaries which were promulgated in 1946. It is true that some of the men who have retired have been given part-payment of sums due to them retrospective to January 1, 1946, but nothing has been done for the people who continue to serve. That is my information. If the noble Viscount can tell me something different, I shall be obliged.
When last year we had a plea rightly put forward by the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Cunningham, on behalf of the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors, possibly as a result of his focusing attention on them they received their new salary scales. They had put in their claim only in 1945, but the civil engineers had made theirs in 1938. The Royal Corps of Naval Constructors, I believe, have had their increases since last year, and they were back-dated to January 1, 1946. I am not saying that they should not have had them. I think they should, because they are a valuable body of men upon whom the safety of the Fleet and the accommodation of the men who serve in His Majesty's ships so largely depend. But the time has now come when something ought to be done for this body of men for whom I speak. My only claim to speak for them is that they served me loyally while I was their immediate chief for the two years when I had the honour to be Civil Lord of the Admiralty. They ought to have their money paid up now on these new scales dated back to January, 1946, as has been done in the case of the scientific classes, the administrative grades and, since we spoke about it last year, the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, may I interrupt for a moment? I do not want there to be any disagreement between the noble Lord opposite and myself. If he made inquiries, I think he would find that the majority of the persons of whom he speaks or in the Department which he mentions have had increases of salary which date back to the date which he has given. In the case of some senior grades there are still a few questions outstanding, but certain sums have been paid to them on account, retrospectively to January 1, 1946. I should not like the noble Lord to be under any misapprehension in relation to this matter, because what was promised last year was done. In the majority of cases increases have been given and the retrospective payments made.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am obliged to the noble Viscount, if that has been done. I will be frank in saying where I obtained my information. It was from the Institution of Professional Civil Servants. If I have misunderstood what they told me, or have misconstrued what they said to me, then I apologise to the noble Viscount. I was under the impression that, except for bonuses that had been given, and except for some payments made to people who have retired, those who are serving in the department have not had this increase of salary dating back to January, 1946, which, I think the noble Viscount will agree with me, they should have had, just as the scientific workers, the administrative grades and the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors have had theirs. If the engineers have had it, that answers the point I wish to make to-day. If they have not had it, I very much hope that the noble Viscount will see that they get it. If they have already had it, I thank him for having gone into the matter after my raising it last year. If they have not got it, I thank him in advance for what I know he will do now.
4.5 p.m.
LORD MOUNTEVANShad given notice of a Motion to call attention to the improved systems of recruitment and training of officers in the Royal Navy. The noble Lord said: My Lords, regarding the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper, I should like to remind

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the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty that in his statement of January 28, 1948, concerning the alteration of the Dartmouth entry system, he emphasised two points: (a) that the quality of officers entered by the new system must be maintained at the previous high level; and (b) that the revised conditions of entry should serve to open a naval officer's career to all boys of the right quality, whatever their school or financial circumstances. As a naval officer I am as anxious as anyone else that that fine quality should be maintained, but at the same time I should like to be assured that the new system of entry has succeeded in employing a wider field than before.
Perhaps the new scheme has not been operating long enough to infer reliably whether the new style cadets are proving as good as their predecessors. I should also like to ask the First Lord whether the revised conditions of entry and financial regulations have in fact resulted in Dartmouth being opened to above-average boys from any type of school. As an ex-juvenile delinquent for whom there was no hope I was brought up in a school for troublesome boys, and I failed to qualify for a Dartmouth cadetship. However, I managed to secure one a couple of years later in competition with boys from the "Worcester" and the "Conway." I was, in fact, the forerunner of the upper yard scheme, as a further means of broadening the officer entry. I mention it in order to find out whether we are getting a good type of officer from the lower deck. Perhaps the First Lord would kindly answer this question, and also inform your Lordships' House what percentage of all officers, say in the last five years, are ex-upper yard men. In addition to what I have said, may I ask the First Lord whether he considers sixteen an ideal age at which to enter Dartmouth? Not long ago, I took part in a discussion with the headmaster of Sherborne who said, amongst other things, that sixteen was no age at which to enter the Navy from any public school because any public schoolmaster, in fact most schoolmasters, would not accept a boy who had the intention of leaving school at the age of sixteen to go to Dartmouth. It appears that seventeen, or from seventeen and a half to
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eighteen and a half, would be a better age at which to join Dartmouth.
There is another point I should like to bring up—I seem to be plying the First Lord with questions. As regards the electrical officers, can the First Lord state that we have enough officers with electrical education in days when the Navy is so full of electrical gadgets? Perhaps the First Lord will also inform the House what opportunities to obtain commissions are offered to promising material amongst National Service men. Further, will the First Lord tell the House whether he is satisfied that there is an adequate flow of junior officers into all branches of the Naval Service? My final question concerning the training of junior officers is perhaps an important one. Are the Admiralty adapting the training of junior officers to fit them for modern conditions? If so, what recent changes have been made in the training of sub-lieutenants and midshipmen? Some of your Lordships may have read recently in Hansard a naval debate, a good deal of which was concerned with this new sixteen-year-old entry into the Royal Naval College of Dartmouth. One statement made by the honourable and gallant Member for Chelsea was that out of 242 boys who sat for the examination to Dartmouth 219 failed to pass, or to reach the necessary educational standard. Perhaps the noble Viscount the First Lord will remark on this very serious account.
4.12 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I wish to speak very briefly this afternoon about the Air Arm of the Royal Navy in which I spent part of my naval career. I should like to deal with two main subjects—first, the shortage of air personnel, in particular of pilots; and, secondly, the strategic value of the aircraft carrier under present-day conditions. On the personnel side, I think it is true to say that at the moment the Navy is desperately short of pilots. Why is this? In the first place, I think it is because at the present time the young people of this country have rather lost the spirit of adventure, and they are not coming forward as they were a few years ago to join this very interesting and attractive side of the Service. I suppose it is a natural aftermath of war, the combination of the Welfare State and early marriage, and things of that kind. Those

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things may be all right; but the spirit of adventure made us great in the past, and we will have to get back to it again. The second reason is that the conditions which are offered to young men to take up a flying career in the Royal Navy are not sufficiently attractive. Take, first, the example of the ex-Dartmouth cadets. We are getting only half the number of volunteers in flying that we should. I think it is essential that flying pay should be increased.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, raised the question of Dartmouth. I am sure he is absolutely right in what he says. I think the present scheme is neither fish nor fowl, and that the age should either be raised or lowered. I should like to refer to another point he raised—namely, that public schools are unwilling to take a boy who is going to leave them at sixteen. Moreover, the boy himself, although starting off by being very keen to go into the Navy, begins to feel his feet after about two years at his public school: he has perhaps gained his house colours, and so forth, and is becoming interested in all matters connected with the school. His enthusiasm for going into the Navy will have waned, and the last thing he will want to do is to leave his public school at that age. As Lord Mountevans has said, we are not now getting the pick of the nation's manhood into Dartmouth as we were before.
Now may I turn for a moment to the short-service air officers. The position there is even worse. We are getting only about one-third the number we require. There, again, the conditions offered are simply not sufficiently attractive. Again I would emphasise a rise in flying pay. I do not think it is enough at present, nor do I think the retirement gratuity enough. The leaflet laying down the conditions for entry as a short-service officer rather vaguely states that there are certain opportunities for taking permanent commissions. In fact, I believe that at the present time those opportunities are extremely good, and I think that in publicising the scheme we might hold out the much more rosy prospects of a permanent commission which do exist today. I also think that some, though not all, of these permanent commissions should be given earlier in the eight-year period of service. Some of them should
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be given as early as three years, so that a really keen young man who was confident of his ability would say, "I am prepared to take a chance and go into this scheme, because feel I have a real chance of getting a permanent commission." Thereby we should get a better type of young man into this short service scheme. Of course, some of the permanent commissions should be given later, because some men take longer to develop, but I think a proportion of them should be given much earlier, say three years after entry. There, again, at present the material we are getting is poor. I believe that out of some 150 applicants for short-service commissions, only about 10 per cent. finally come through; the others fail on educational and medical standards, and so forth.
Although the shortage of pilots is the chief trouble, another factor is that, while we have good maintenance ratings, not enough of them are re-engaging. We are losing our skilled maintenance ratings. That is dealt with in the White Paper, but it is a point which must be borne in mind. Then what about our flying reserves? Are they getting enough encouragement and enough flying? What about that rather Cinderella body, the R.N.V.R. Supplementary Special Reserve? Are they getting any flying or encouragement at all? When last this matter was raised in your Lordships' House it was understood that they were not getting as much encouragement as the R.A.F. Supplementary Special Reserve. There is one final point in regard to personnel. Is the field of recruitment from the Commonwealth and the Colonial Empire being fully exploited? I feel that more could be done there to get the right type of young man into the Navy.
My Lords, I pass to my second point—namely, the strategic value of the aircraft carrier. The question is asked: will there be any part for the aircraft carrier to play in a future war? I say definitely "Yes." I admit that it is unlikely to be used in a Fleet action, but I believe it will play a major part in operations against submarines. I was very much interested in what Lord Winster had to say about that, and I entirely agree with him. I agree also with what was said by Lord Llewellin on the subject of unified command. In the anti-submarine war it may be neces-

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sary, eventually, that all aircraft to be used in that war should be, operationally and otherwise, under the command of the Royal Navy.
I think it is generally agreed that in the open oceans, at any distance over 600 miles from the shore base, the aircraft carrier provides a much more economic way of protecting convoys. We must remember that the air base which is required for the operation of the modern jet fighter is much more expensive and difficult to construct than used to be the case. For example, longer and heavier runways are required. It is no longer possible to establish easily an air base in the desert or to hack one out of the jungle. It entails a major feat of civil engineering to construct a base which will be suitable for modern aircraft. It would, I am convinced, be quite impossible, either in the economic or the practical sense, to build enough air bases to enable us in the case of any future war to be ready for eventualities in all parts of the world. Even for protecting Mediterranean convoys it would be necessary to have five major air bases in the Mediterranean area. Moreover, bases will have to be closer together than in the past, because the jet fighter aircraft has a range of only a little over 200 miles.
Everyone agrees that war, if it comes—and, of course, we all hope that it will never come again—will come very suddenly indeed. There will be little, if any, time for preparation, as there was in the last war. So I maintain that the strategic mobility of the aircraft carrier is of the highest importance, not only for getting an air striking force to different parts of the world where we have no bases, but also—as was shown in the last war on many occasions—to meet calls of the R.A.F. for assistance. On a number of occasions in the last war, the Royal Air Force had to appeal to the Navy to transport their squadrons to scenes of action. It happened in the case of Malta and in the case of Takoradi. In recent times, we have had to help the R.A.F. to get squadrons to Hong Kong. I am convinced that the aircraft carrier will have a major rôle to fill in any future war, and will be vital to our defence. I would close again emphasising its strategic value as a mobile air base. That being so, I put forward a most urgent plea for all
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possible support, both financially and as regards increased personnel, for the Air Arm of the Royal Navy.
4.25 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in a debate of this nature, especially in view of the fact that it has been conducted at such a high level with regard to strategic matters. I have, however, to put forward a point of view which is fairly widely held in Scotland, and I am sorry that the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty is not in his place at the moment. I think it would help a great deal if the noble Viscount would make a statement upon this matter. It has for a considerable time been common knowledge among ordinary people that as soon as a war starts the Fleet goes up to Scotland. That has happened in the last two wars. As soon as a war ends, establishments in Scotland are either almost immediately closed down or at least are considerably reduced. I am fully aware, as, indeed, everyone must be, of the measures of economy which necessarily follow a war, and I know what difficulties Service Departments have in dealing with this question. It is also obvious that no Service Department can be governed by what might be called sociological considerations. If the noble Viscount the First Lord could say something of the reasons which make it necessary to close down the Scottish establishments—and I assure him that this is causing a great deal of heart burning in many districts—it would have a good effect and would lead to a better understanding of naval policy. We appreciate very much the visits which we in Scotland receive from time to time from the Navy. We should welcome more such visits. I am very glad to note that the former First Lord, Lord Cunningham, is having an escort when he visits Edinburgh this month. It is a matter for great satisfaction that that should be the case.
Now, venturing into rather deeper waters, may I say how astonished I was to note, from the emphasis in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Winster, on the need for unity of command, that there was deduced the need to divide control of land-based aircraft? I hope that the idea of divided control of the Air Force is no longer being entertained. After all, one cannot have two wars, one being conducted on the sea and another being con-

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ducted on the land. If unity of command means anything whatsoever it means control over both spheres. It is common knowledge, I think, that during the last war it was not infrequent for aircraft to be transferred from Bomber Command to Coastal Command for use over open sea and used in many cases with great effect. Finally, on D-Day, air power was united in full support of our land and sea Forces with one objective, and its effect was overwhelming. I would further emphasise the inefficiency which would arise by not having a common source of supply and equipment and not having a common training scheme, as would result from dividing our Air Force into two. Unless further and stronger arguments are advanced, I personally should be very much against Coastal Command being removed from its present position.
4.28 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I find myself largely in agreement with what the noble Earl who has just spoken has said in regard to Coastal Command. For many years before the last war, I was very much concerned in the barren controversy which, as we all remember, took place between the Admiralty and the Air Ministry about the Royal Air Force and as to who should control certain aspects of it. In those clays, I always subscribed to the Admiralty view as it then was—or at any rate, it was the view of a great number of sailors—that the Admiralty ought to be in control of everything which used the sea, whether it flew over it or not. Since that time we have had a war, and from it I am sure that we have all learned much. The Air Ministry and the Admiralty must certainly have learned a lot. From what little I know, and from all that I have read, there is no doubt that the fight which Coastal Command put up against the submarine menace in the Atlantic was magnificent. I do not say it was perfect, for I do not know enough about it, though I imagine it probably was. One of the questions which I want to put to the First Lord of the Admiralty in this debate is: How long would it take to regroup Coastal Command, whether it was run by the Navy or by the R.A.F.?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH): As I was in the middle of the controversy in 1940 and
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1941 I should like to say that the great success of Coastal Command, which we all admired so much, dated, in the Atlantic at any rate, from the time the Admiralty were given operational control of Coastal Command and we secured reinforcements to the Command of which previously we had been starved.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Was their success not primarily due to new aircraft?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I have just said it was because of the reinforcements of which we had previously been starved.
EARL HOWE: Maybe it was. I have nothing but admiration for the glorious work of Coastal Command during the last war. I should like to pass from that aspect. With regard to the Navy to-day I must confess that, notwithstanding Lord Strabolgi's warning about gloom, I have a considerable feeling of disquiet about the state of naval affairs. What the country really wants to know is: Is our Navy sufficient and efficient? There is no Party issue about this question. It is something we all want to know: what sort of Navy have we? The only answer we can get are these notes on naval activities and Admiralty policy, but I cannot get anything out of them. The Navy is surrounded by a secret curtain which it seems almost impossible to penetrate.
He would be a bold man who would be prepared to underwrite the peace of the world for the next five years. Therefore it is important to know what sort of Navy we have. If we do not tell the country, we cannot expect the country to give us adequate support when we want it. We had in Pearl Harbour an example of what might happen in another war. Are we sure in another war that we shall have a period of even strained relations? Is it not almost possible that the attack may open to-morrow morning? It certainly could if the aggressor were sufficiently unscrupulous; and what would happen if that did come off? There would be about 2,000 merchant ships on the trade routes of the world which would be the immediate target for a submarine force, and hostile submarines might be expected to be ready in position. They would come out, escaping observation for the most part by their Schnorkel devices, and would be in position, as were the Germans when they sank the "Athenia "

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in the last war. Probably there would be a supplementary air attack on a terrific scale by an air force with about 40,000 machines behind them.
Could we re-create Coastal Command? Have we an organisation that would provide for escort vessels to be ready to go out to the trade routes and carry out the Navy's traditional job of defending our shipping? Have we the personnel to man the ships? Have we the ships? And, finally, have we the aircraft? The situation I have envisaged is not an impossible one. Naturally, I do not expect to be told secrets that we should not know, but could we not be given an assurance on how far we should be able to grapple with a sudden attack of that sort? Presumably, the Navy would want to deploy anti-submarine craft, escort vessels and minesweepers. How many have we? We have some figures in this remarkable document—remarkable because, in spite of the warning of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, about gloom, it opens with the sinking of the "Aurora" which was handed over to the Chinese Navy and became the "Chunking" and goes on to tell about the defeat of the "Consort" in the Yangtze and the withdrawal forced upon the "London" and the "Black Swan." I should have thought the less said about defeat in a document of this sort the better.
What force have we immediately available to go to sea to defend the trade routes? So far as I can see, we have sixty-one destroyers and frigates. We have also thirty-three on a reduced basis, training and experimental, which perhaps should be added, to make a total of ninety-four. And we have in reserve 184 ships. That gives us a modest total, indeed, to deal with an attack of a submarine force which, according to what we have been told in the House this afternoon, may consist of as many as 270. They would not all come out at the same time, but no doubt the attack would be formidable. It seems to me that the Admiralty should try to reassure us, but I do not know whether they can. I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty how many destroyers, escort vessels and minesweepers were found to be necessary to grapple with the submarine attacks on our ships in 1943. Can he also tell us how many aircraft Coastal Command were using in 1943? The answers to
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these questions, if they can be answered, would give us an idea of how the forces available to-day compare with what we found to be necessary in 1943.
There are many more questions one could ask, to which the First Lord could not give us answers, on grounds of security. How many airfields were required for the work of Coastal Command and how many for the work of the Navy? In this Statement it is stated that we are closing down eight airfields used in the late war for the work of the Navy, or reducing them to a care-and-maintenance basis, or disposing of them in some other way. To get an accurate picture of the whole situation, I think it is essential that the First Lord should tell us a little more than he has been able to tell us up to now.
LORD STRABOLGI: The noble Earl is not proposing, is he, that we should keep up a war strength in all these materials in peace time?
EARL HOWE: If the noble Lord had been present when I started my speech I think he would have understood better the point I am trying to make. There is considerable secrecy with regard to what sort of Navy we have. In order to find out how far it is adequate for the purpose for which we want a Navy, I am putting a few questions to the First Lord, although on grounds of security it may be undesirable that he should answer them to-day. But these questions, if answered, would give us an idea of the extent to which the Navy will be able to meet any possible attack. It has been stated that battleships have been reduced to moth-ball status in order to man smaller ships. Can the noble Viscount tell us how many smaller ships have been brought into commission as a result of that particular step?
With regard to the ships that we may have available in the event of attack, five new frigates are being built from five old destroyers and one new anti-submarine ship is under construction. I suppose that that anti-submarine ship is experimental: that it will be another two or three years before the construction is completed, and possibly a further two or three years on top of that before her trials are completed. But who will underwrite peace for the next five years? It is in the next five years that we may want that ship. I would ask the noble Viscount whether he can tell us about this new anti-

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submarine ship: whether she is a ship that is likely to be constructed quickly, and is capable of being built more or less on mass production lines. We are also told that when trouble comes the Navy may have homing torpedoes. Do these homing torpedoes exist at present, or are they just another experiment which has to be completed, and which must obviously take a long time? I do not expect the noble Viscount to answer that. Probably it will not become a question of practical politics.
Something has been said this afternoon about the transfer of ships to other nations. One would have thought that we should hang on to the destroyers and frigates that we have, rather than dispose of them. But if your Lordships turn to page 6 of the First Lord's Statement you will see that we have disposed of twenty-one destroyers and thirty frigates to foreign Governments. We remember the start of the last war, and how short we were of destroyers, a matter frequently pointed out in Parliament at the time. We also remember that we had to make special arrangements with America, and thanks to American aid we got the valuable assistance of fifty destroyers. If war broke out in the next five years is it not likely that the fifty-one ships that have been disposed of to foreign Governments would be invaluable? I cannot understand the policy which disposes of them at present. Furthermore, it seems to me to be an extraordinary thing that that policy should be put into operation without, so far as I am aware, Parliament being consulted at all. It may still be the policy of the Admiralty to dispose of destroyers and frigates, and our resources are getting less every day. We have no control over the Admiralty if they wish suddenly to dispose of, say, another half dozen destroyers and half a dozen frigates. Yet those ships might be vital if war broke out.
My next point is in relation to gas turbines, which is a matter I have raised before in your Lordships' House. I do not know whether it is a practical proposition, but it seems to me that with the modern development of the higher speed submarine we want a ship that can cruise at economical speeds, with a great radius of action, and yet have at its command great power so as to be able to achieve very high seagoing speed when required. The Navy have had an experimental gas
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turbine ship for some considerable time. Can the noble Viscount tell us anything about the trials? Have they been successful? Is it expected that gas turbines can be applied to anti-submarine craft of this character? Then, if the trouble comes, what about the minesweeping position? That has already been referred to by previous speakers. We might easily have the same situation as we had the last time, with the enemy scattering mines ail over the estuaries and entries to our ports and harbours. We all know of the desperate efforts made by the Admiralty to deal, first of all, with the magnetic mine, and then with the acoustic mina when it came along. But have we yet found the answer to the hydrostatic mine? We had not found the answer to it at the end of the war, and I can only, hope that we have since. Then, with regard to degaussing to protect our ships from the magnetic mine, are we prepared to bring some organisation into being in order to deal with that point? Nothing has been said about that. All these are matters which may have to be dealt with at very short notice.
I now pass from the lesser craft to the aircraft carriers, about which a good deal has been said this afternoon. An aircraft carrier without her aircraft is like a ship without her guns. Have the aircraft carriers which we possess available for them, either ashore or afloat, their full complement of aircraft? With regard to pilots, I imagine from what has fallen from noble Lords who have already spoken in this debate, and particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, that the pilot position is net all that it might he. But if we have not the pilots or the machines our aircraft carriers will be useless, and one of the most important, parts of the Navy may be out of action when it is required. Can the noble Viscount reassure us on this point? Much could be said about the manning situation, re-engagement, and SO on. We appreciate all the difficulties, but it seems an. extraordinary thing that we have to give a man a bonus when he retires from the Navy at twelve years, and yet when a man re-engages he does not receive one. It seems to me that under present conditions it is the man who re-engages who wants the bonus—and a good big one too. I suppose there is some answer to that. I hope the First Lord will be able to give

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us a better reply than was given in the other place.
I should like to pass on to the question of closing the Bermuda base. I suppose it is inevitable that we have to close down that dockyard or, at any rate, to reduce its status. However, I submit that if the last war taught us anything, it taught us the extreme importance of just such a base as that at Bermuda. Surely something can be done. Would it not be policy, with Mr. Dean Acheson in this country, to discuss the question of Bermuda with him, if it has not already been discussed? If it has been discussed perhaps the noble Viscount will tell us, but, if not, surely it might be worth while discussing with Mr. Dean Acheson what the future status of Bermuda is to be before any executive action is taken in that direction.
Finally, one of the economies the Admiralty are now undertaking is to close down the Chatham Division of the Royal Marines. The Royal Marines have had the honour of supplying the band which has played at several of the banquets attended by the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander, during the last few years, and I believe it was also the band which led the victory march in Berlin. Does this closing down mean that that band is to be lost to the Royal Marines? Then it is proposed to reduce the Royal Marines by 2,000 men. The Royal Marines have to provide detachments for all His Majesty's ships. They have to provide a Commando Brigade, and incidentally that Commando Brigade has to go to every point where trouble exists—Palestine, Akabar, Hong Kong, and now Malaya. That seems to form a very considerable percentage of our active Army. With the remaining 10,000 men, shall we be able to provide a worth-while commando force, the detachments for all our ships and also personnel for manning our small landing craft, if the arrangement which I understand existed in the last war is still continued?
I am afraid that I have asked a lot of questions and taken up a lot of time, but I hope that I shall be forgiven because I am so extraordinarily anxious, and I do hope that the First Lord will give us all the information he can. It is an expensive business having a Navy, and it is an expensive business having a Navy
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strong enough to win a war. But I submit that the most expensive business of all is to have a Navy strong enough to lose a war.
4.52 p.m.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I am proposing to detain your Lordships for only a few minutes. I shall give the First Lord a brief interval in which to try at least to get a list of the tremendous string of questions with which he has just been bombarded, but I do not think I shall add anything to that list. I am not proposing to embark on any of the major questions which have been raised to-day, because they have all been exploited so fully. On that I would only say that for more than fifty years I have been either engaged in the preparation for a war or helping in the centre of a war, and all that time I have heard terrible reasons advanced for saying that the Navy was finished and that the country was pretty well finished, too. From the day of the introduction of the torpedo, one after another there have been these new inventions. Well, somehow or another, the counter has always been found. At the beginning of the last war it looked as though the enemy air forces would make life impossible for the Navy and for the country, but radar came to the rescue and we again survived. We have still very fine scientists engaged over the whole field of defence research, including especially the Navy. I expect that the Admiralty have a certain amount "up their sleeves." If I were in the First Lord's place, I think I should forget some of those questions or find it not in the public interest to give the answers I do not think he can answer in some cases.
I have been speaking of what I do not intend to talk about further—namely, the larger questions. I really rose only to say a few words on a question which the noble Earl has raised concerning the Royal Marines. They are a modest but an essential part of the Navy. The noble Earl mentioned the question of Chatham, which is one into which I have looked a little. From many points of view it is certainly regrettable that Chatham barracks should have to be closed. I believe everybody would agree with that —I think the First Lord himself will agree. At the naval ports there have always been the Marine Divisions, as they used to be called. It was a very handy

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arrangement for manning the ships. If we wanted to send away a party of Marines, as we did in 1926 to Shanghai and on another occasion to the West Indies, it could be done very conveniently by putting a few detachments, one at a time, on board a few ships, and thereby attracting little attention. Apart from that, however, there were very close associations between the Marines and the people of the ports. There grew around the barracks little colonies which were admirable recruiting places, and Marines went on in the same family from one generation to another. That has been a factor of especial importance in a long-service Corps. Chatham recently recognised that, before this announcement was made, by giving the Royal Marines the freedom of the town. That just illustrates the point.
It is very regrettable, but undoubtedly the barracks were in a bad position. There are new barracks—I think down in the Deal-Walmer direction—which will take the place of those at Chatham. Chatham was not a particularly good place for the modern training of Marines, which require the proximity of a coast line. It is a little too far up the river, and the place has grown so much that it is necessary to go too far outside Chatham for the best training facilities. For that reason, I do not think that the Admiralty could do otherwise than close down those barracks, although I understand that they have kept an association with the town by retaining some of the administrative formations—I think it is the pay divisions.
It is rather on the function of the modern training of commandos that I wanted to speak. I think the First Lord will be able to answer that the commando system has been kept virtually intact. It might be imagined, after what my noble friend Lord Winster said in. his very thoughtful speech, that the commando system was less important because amphibious warfare had slipped into the background. I quite agree with him that it will not be possible to land huge forces on a coast until the command of the sea has been secured. But it never was possible to do it otherwise, and we shall probably and that science will find its way to meet those great difficulties, and that in time we shall obtain sufficient command of the sea in a war to be
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able to land forces on the coast. But it is not only great forces which have had value in amphibious warfare. In the works of every writer, from Marryat to Forester, you will and recounted the operations of small forces of great importance—small forces which are not going to draw upon themselves the atomic bomb. Yet those forces were of great importance in the old wars, the Nelson wars at the beginning of the nineteenth century and the end of the eighteenth century. It was so in the case of Spain, especially the Peninsular War. And the noble Earl has mentioned some modern instances.
It is two years since I spoke on this question in your Lordships' House. About mid-way in that space of time I was in Egypt. During that time I called on the Commander-in-Chief in the Middle East. He and all the, officers I met were discussing the extraordinary performance of the Royal Marine Commandos at one of those inter-Service displays which take place. It sounds simple enough: it was marching in the desert. Yes—but marching in loose sand; and to do something that is a slow march in those conditions calls for the most perfect training and discipline. To do that marching in the desert as well as they would do it on Horse Guards Parade is most certainly a sign of discipline. That, my Lords, is the standard at which the Royal Marines aim. They want to emulate the standard of discipline of the Guards; they want the handiness of the sailor; and they emulate the élan of tae Royal Air Force.
I should like to give your Lordships another example. Two clays later I was asked by the Marine Commandos to visit them. I did so, and was met halfway by a great force of motor-cyclists. We proceeded at hurricane speed to a spot on the Little Bitter Lake, when suddenly we stopped short, and there, in front of me, I saw a magnificent guard of Royal Marines. With their blue uniforms, aid their accoutrements shining, and their white helmets, they were a most magnificent sight there in the desert. At that moment, with perfect timing, the Commandant of all the Commandos at Malta descended in an aeroplane and was beside me at the saluting point where I had to take the salute; and then these men did the march past in the sand of the desert.

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Then suddenly I saw the other side. These people had just come from the occupation of Akaba, which the noble Earl mentioned. That, they told me, had been done partly by air and partly by sea. They gave a display with their guns with the greatest smartness—the sort of smartness one expects of the winners at the Royal Tournament. They were getting their guns into aeroplanes. It was a great contrast, this sudden change into battle-dress and this tremendous new élan in getting the guns into their aeroplanes ready to fly off. Incidentally, by arrangement, they were spending, their spare time in assisting the Egyptian police in preventing thefts of arms from the British depôts, which at that time—this was about a year ago—were very serious. Very shortly afterwards, they went off to Hong Kong, and now I see that they are going to Malaya. I think they had previously been to Palestine.
There, my Lords, is a modern exposition of the immense value of a Service —and remember, it is a long-term Service —with a very high efficiency. I think it is a fine thing for the nation that we should have a Corps that sets itself those high standards, even though it is rather small. The Marines have not finished their work. If there is another war they will certainly be there again. And if some day we have succeeded in imposing peace upon the world by force—when I say "we" I mean the forces of common sense and order—and come to the conclusion that for our safety we have got to impose it upon the planets, I am sure that at the invasion of Venus—no, perhaps I had better not say that, for Venus would he rather dangerous for Marines—at the invasion of Mars, the Marines will be there.
5.7 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, the debate which was initiated so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has kept up the tradition of the last three debates on naval affairs. That is explained by the fact that, with the exception of myself, every person who has taken part in the debate has served in the Royal Navy or in the Royal Marines. All are experts, and very forcible and clear in expressing, their views in your Lordships' House.
As the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has said, I have had a spate of questions fired
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at me. I do not know how long I should keep your Lordships sitting if I were to attempt to answer all the questions. I will do what I can, but it is my intention to deal with the two or three main questions, which I think have been put by every noble Lord who has spoken to-day. The first point, which was put by Lord Teynham, was about the question of money. He asked whether I am satisfied that with the money which Parliament has voted the Royal Navy can be kept both efficient and sufficient. The position is this. The amount of money which has been voted by Parliament for the Royal Navy for the current year is no less than £193,000,000 which is £3,750,000 in excess of the corresponding sum voted by Parliament last year. This sum is about a quarter of the total global sum of £780,000,000 voted for the Defence Services as a whole, with £60,000,000 for the Ministry of Supply. In all the circumstances we cannot complain about the Admiralty allocation. I think it can be said that the keynote of Admiralty policy this year is the intention to devote more money to re-equipment and to reduce the total manpower of the Royal Navy in order to enable this to be done. I do not think that any noble Lords who have spoken in this debate will disagree with that policy.
Reference has been made to the reduction in man-power. It is true that manpower will fall from about 140,000 at the beginning of the year to 127,500 or thereabouts at the end of the financial year. I want here to make it clear, however, that this reduction in man-power is to be achieved by administrative economies ashore, and not at the expense of the sea-going Fleet. The major portion of the reductions will fall upon the National Service men. Indeed, it can be said that something like 75 per cent. of the reductions will fall upon National Service men who would be going out in any case. As your Lordships know, we are not replacing them with the numbers that we did formerly. Many of the economies we are making are referred to in my Explanatory Note. Some have already been put into effect, and others are now being carried out. The money which is being saved on personnel, together with the increase in the total Estimates provision, has enabled us to augment the provision for production and research by £10,000,000 above the sum provided for the corresponding services last year. Some

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of the economies which we have made have been referred to in the course of this debate.
It was pleasing to hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, who has a love for the Marines, in view of the fact that he spent part of his most distinguished service to the State in the Royal Marines. Indeed, I should have been disappointed if during this debate he had not intervened as he has, and paid that great tribute which he has paid to his old Corps. In relation to the removal of certain of the Royal Marines from Chatham, the closing down of the dockyard in Bermuda and the taking away of the Flag Officer in Scotland, may I say that these economies were not entered into lightly. Considerable discussions took place in relation to them and they came about only as a result of the fact that conditions are completely changed. For instance, take Bermuda. It was almost impossible to keep sufficient men in Bermuda to deal with all the intricacies of a warship at the present tune. It is a small and most uneconomic depôt to work. Something like two-thirds of the costs in Bermuda were overheads. We thought that the time had now come when the dockyard should be closed, fully realising its economic effect upon the economy of Bermuda. I must say that when we met the delegation from Bermuda, they fully realised what the situation was and accepted the position, though with very great regret. The change will not interfere with the stationing of the North Atlantic Fleet. They will still base at Bermuda, and the Commander-in-Chief will reside there.
Similar remarks apply in relation to the removal of the Flag Officer in Scotland, a point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. The amount of work which was being done in Scotland at the present time did not warrant the maintenance of a Commander-in-Chief, with all his staff. The result is that what we have done, in effect, is to revert to the pre-war position, and the Admiral Superintendent, who is in charge of the Royal Dockyard, will continue the work of the Commander-in-Chief. That in itself will save a fair amount of money. I assure the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and indeed the people who are keenly interested in Rosyth, that this action is quite independent and separate from the question of the maintenance of the Royal Dockyard itself. There is no intention that there should
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be any reductions or any thought of interfering with the maintenance of the Rosyth Dockyard.
In relation to the Royal Marines, there has been a break in the connection between the Royal Marines and Chatham which had existed for something like 150 years. I am a bit of a sentimentalist, and if I lived in Chatham, if I had any connection whatsoever with Chatham, I should certainly feel the break. As the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has rightly said, the rôle of the Marines has changed. It was impossible to provide near Chatham the training which is necessary to the Marines at the present time. There were facilities near Portsmouth and Devonport. The result was that in all the circumstances it was absolutely necessary to bring about that change. The same thing can be said in relation to many other economies which we shall have to impose.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, will the First Lord forgive me for interrupting him for a moment? After the reductions have been carried out in Bermuda, will Bermuda be capable of becoming fully operational again or not?
VISCOUNT HALL: The question is whether or not it will be required. We will keep that matter well in hand, but it is impossible to go on losing something like £800,000 a year on maintenance of a dockyard of that kind. As I have already pointed out, the representatives from Bermuda were fully conscious of the difficulty in that respect.
The theme which has gone right through this debate is really the role of the Royal Navy in the changed circumstances. In the course of the debate, one of the noble Lords referred to the disappearance of surface ships. It can be said that the disappearance of any potential enemy with a large surface fleet means that the threat is no longer in the battleship or other large surface ships, but in the submarine, the air and the mine. It is general knowledge that there are now being developed by large naval Powers faster submarines which can remain submerged for much longer periods than ever before. I have no doubt that your Lordships are acquainted with the results of two experiments which have recently taken place. One was the submerging of an American submarine, the other the submerging of a British

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submarine. From a report which appeared a few weeks ago, an American submarine travelled 5,000 miles submerged for twenty-one days. Then there was our own experiment of a submarine which submerged for almost double the time, nearly six weeks, and travelled something like 3,000 miles.
The development of submarines capable, when submerged, of both high speed and long endurance has engaged our close attention from more than one point of view; indeed, it can be said that priority has been given to research and development in this particular problem. Let me say that, whatever the criticism may be of the Admiralty and the work which the Admiralty is doing, I know of no naval Power to which the Admiralty will allow us to take second place in relation to research, not only into fast submarines, but also into the antisubmarine methods which should be adopted. We are pursuing the development of the fast electrically-driven submarine. Several of our submarines are being converted to this fast electric drive. May I explain to your Lordships what that really means? In this case there is supplementary machinery to the usual diesel engines of a submarine. There are electric batteries which are charged and which, as the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, rightly said, will give a boost to the submarine for, say, nine, twelve or possibly fourteen knots; but it cannot give the boost for more than three-quarters of an hour.
LORD TEYNHAM: May I interrupt the noble Viscount for a moment? Am I wrong in suggesting that the boosted speed is something more than fourteen knots, and is more like seventeen knots?
VISCOUNT HALL: I was going to come to the question of speed. I think the noble Lord is quite accurate: it is about seventeen knots. But the boost cannot complete the seventeen knots; it is only for a distance of about twelve to fourteen knots within the period, and then the batteries have to be recharged. This type is not the only electrically driven submarine of which we have had actual experience in operation. We have also had experience of the hydrogen-peroxide-propelled machine. Let me say again that I am satisfied that there is no naval Power in the world which has greater knowledge
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of this form of propulsion than we have. Much has been said about alternative propulsive systems. They have been talked about at length during the course of the last two or three weeks. But if I were to reply to all the questions which have been put to me to-day, I should disclose all the information that the Russians would like to have. I am not going, to say anything more than that your Lordships will not expect me to deal with the alternative propulsive methods. I will only say that costly development, even if of vital importance, can be undertaken only if there has been sufficient background, research and study to give a reasonable degree of assurance of both technical success and tactical and strategic value.
I wish that we could do everything that noble Lords desire us to do, but I am afraid that to-day there is a complete under-estimation of the strength of the Royal Navy. I will repeat what the Parliamentary Secretary said in another place —namely, that we have escort vessels of sufficient speed to deal with all the known submarines of the present time. I will repeat what I said a year ago—namely, that I know of no naval Power in the world which has a submarine which can attain a submerged speed of twenty knots.
LORD TEYNHAM: May I interrupt the noble Viscount attain for one moment? Does the noble Viscount mean to say that our existing escort vessels are capable of dealing with the boosted type of submarine which can attain a speed of seventeen knots?
VISCOUNT HALL: The majority of our escort vessels are capable of dealing even with that. But I should like to remind the noble Lord that the number of fast electrically propelled submarines is very small. If you take a proportion among some of the larger naval Powers, then, indeed, it is very, very small.
LORD TEYNHAM: But they are increasing fairly rapidly.
VISCOUNT HALL: They are increasing, but I doubt very much whether they will increase a great deal more, in view of the research which is going on into other propulsive methods.
LORD TEYNHAM: Then the position would be far worse.
VISCOUNT HALL: By that time we hope that we shall get the necessary escort vessels of sufficient speed to deal with the kind of submarine which the noble Lord has in mind, and indeed, to deal with vessels with the kind of propulsion which the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, who made such a powerful plea in connection with this matter, has in mind.
Now let me explain to your Lordships what we are doing. A new prototype anti-submarine frigate, embodying the latest weapons and the results of all the lessons learned during and since the war, is being ordered this year. It will have sufficient speed to deal with future fast submarines. A serviceable anti-submarine frigate which can be turned out on the lines suggested by the noble Lord, quickly, comparatively cheaply and in large numbers, at the same time meeting the minimum requirements of future antisubmarine war, is in active development. Two fleet destroyers are in hand for conversion to anti-submarine frigates, and another three conversions will follow. I would not under-estimate the value of those converted destroyers. They have speed and, with the adaptations which can be carried out on them, they make most serviceable anti-submarine vessels. In all this work, as in other new construction and conversions which we are undertaking or will be putting in hand, the programme of ship target trials, of which your Lordships are aware, has played a most useful part. The target ships were bombed from the air, shelled from the surface and subjected to the shock of under-water explosion, all at a comparatively trivial cost. It can be said that nearly all the ships were saved from sinking, and the result has been that our scientists and others have been able to secure very valuable data indeed on which to base the construction of new vessels and the conversion of others.
The highest Priority is being given to the development of anti-submarine weapons for use by ships and aircraft; the dropping of depth charges over the stern has been superseded by the weapon which throws the depth charge ahead and around, and represents a considerable step forward. As was mentioned in another place, and as has been mentioned in the course of your Lordships' debate to-day, we have in the experimental stage a number of new types of homing
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torpedoes which may be launched from the surface, from aircraft or from underwater. They will seek out an enemy submarine, set their course and "home" on the submarine. I think it can be said that there has been almost a revolution in regard to this kind of destructive weapon.
Reference has also been made to antisubmarine aircraft. I am afraid that I cannot share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, on this point. We cannot get those cheap aircraft of which he has been talking to-day. We have to get aircraft which will do the job, and such aircraft are very expensive. They are produced as the result, not of months, but of years of study in design and construction methods. It is not possible just to turn a wheel, as it were, and make them appear. A new anti-submarine aircraft, the G.R. 17, is now being developed for carrier operation. This machine, which has powers of detection and destruction, has already been deck landed successfully. Perhaps I may digress for a moment to say that although no carriers have yet been re-armed with jet aircraft, a flight of Vampire fighters were embarked in His Majesty's Ship "Implacable" during the last autumn exercise, and Vampire aircraft will be embarked again with the Home Fleet during the course of this summer.
These matters are constantly under consideration and, indeed, they are the subject of active practice. Frequent practices and exercises are taking place in the main Fleets, and the combined Naval and R.A.F. School at Londonderry is studying weapons and tactics. New attack weapons are being developed and asdic and radar are being greatly improved. I was glad this afternoon to hear so many noble Lords refer to the danger from mines. In our previous debates, very little reference has been made to this weapon. We believe that it constitutes the second most serious threat in war at the present time. These mines can be laid by aircraft, by surface vessels or by submarines, and they are most effective in shallow waters. The serious effect of mines on our shipping at certain periods of the last war will be remembered by all. There is no limit to the ingenuity which can be brought to hear in varying the magnetism within the mines, and so making them difficult to sweep. To counter this threat, we are commissioning a special experimental minesweeping flotilla

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this year to investigate sweeping methods for mines which do not respond to orthodox methods of sweeping. In the next few years we intend to construct a number of minesweepers of new design, the first of which are being included in this year's programme. More minesweepers in home waters will be commissioned, so that as many men as possible can be trained in this vital form of nava warfare and so that tactics and technical innovations may be studied and tried out.
The air threat is likely to be more serious in coastal waters than on the ocean routes, for attack from the air is limited in scope by the distance from an enemy's airfields. We are, therefore, developing new forms of anti-aircraft control for most of our ships, and we are including a prototype anti-aircraft frigate in our new construction programme this year. We also plan to build a type of escort which is new to our Navy, and which will be fitted with means necessary to control our own fighter aircraft in the defence of our shipping against enemy bombers and other forms of attack from the air. Although it is likely to be less serious than hitherto, we cannot entirely rule out the surface threat. We are therefore retaining, as well as cruisers, a number of fleet destroyers, and as is known we are building eight new ones of the most modern and up-to-date design—the "Darings." Two of these destroyers have already been launched, and work on all of them is progressing, so it should not be long before they are all complete.
Your Lordships will recognise that our naval commitments in any future emergency will be many, and that we cannot concentrate all our resources on one particular aspect. Raving, decided what part of our Navy Estimates should be voted to the manning and maintenance of ships, it is then necessary to ensure that the units of the Fleet which put to sea in war are in the proper proportion to the varying gravity of the main threats which I have outlined. We are therefore including in our combined Active and Reserve Fleets at present thirteen aircraft carriers, whose main function will be the protection of shipping against air and submarine attack. I was rather surprised to hear the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, describe the cruisers as being old and out of date. May I say that 90 per cent. of those
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twenty-six cruisers are under ten years of age?
LORD TEYNHAM: Are they all complete with modern fire and radar equipment?
VISCOUNT HALL: That is what we are endeavouring to ensure. That is why we are carrying out periodically work of modernisation and reconstruction. This can be done, and we are adapting these cruisers so that when they are modernised we shall have the most powerful cruisers of their kind—indeed, the most modern cruisers in the world.
We have heard a lot to-day about the Navy not being ready to deal with the menaces which will confront us. I agree that the main menace is that of the submarine. But the fact is that, if you take all the naval Powers in the world, with the exception of the United States of America, and combine their cruiser strength, you will find that it does not come up to our cruiser strength. There is one consideration which noble Lords who have taken part in this debate seem to have forgotten. Even Lord Winster in the course of his very powerful speech did not mention it—in fact the only reference to it was by a noble Lord who said that the only defence of the West was by the atomic bomb. I should not like to say what are the defences of the United States of America, or indeed of the British Commonwealth—because we must not think only in terms of the British Fleet. There are the fleets of other countries in the Commonwealth to be taken into account. I have no doubt that in the future, as in the past, in the event of an emergency these will again be placed at the disposal of His Majesty's Government to do their share of the work.
Having regard to the Atlantic Pact and Western Union, if we combine the naval forces of the United States of America with the naval forces which we and other Commonwealth countries have we shall find that this combined strength is absolutely overwhelming. I am not suggesting for a moment that we ought not to rely on our own right arm. I doubt very much whether some of the noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon realise what has been done. We have twenty-six cruisers and 113 destroyers, some of which will be converted into anti-submarine frigates and the remainder

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will be used in the same way as cruisers. We have 165 frigates for escort duties and sixty-six submarines. Do not let us underestimate the value of the Reserve Fleet.
EARL HOWE: Is the noble Lord able to say to what extent it is immediately available?
VISCOUNT HALL: It is evident that the noble Earl does not know the practice of the Admiralty, which has already been described. The Reserve Fleet is refitted before it is placed in reserve. A number of ships are being dehumidified, if I may use such an ugly word. I have no doubt that in a wry short time after what might be regarded as "D" Day the major portion could be called into action.
EARL HOWE: A month?
VISCOUNT HALL: The noble Earl also referred to the three "Tiger" class cruisers. He mentioned this last year and I thought I gave him then a conclusive answer. I am afraid I can only repeat what I said last year, that we are most anxious that these vessels should be completed with the most modern equipment, particularly with regard to armament. Work on new armament is being pressed forward as rapidly as possible. Research in design, which necessarily precedes the introduction of new weapons, is nearing completion. However, I do not expect that the equipment actually to be fitted into the ships will be sufficiently advanced to justify restarting on constructional work for some little time. These ships will embody everything that is known and required for the most modern cruisers in the world.
As I have already pointed out, we are relying, as we always have done, on the assistance of the Commonwealth Navies, particularly for the security of the ocean routes adjacent to them. We are also co-ordinating our naval plans with the North Atlantic Treaty nations, from whom we expect much assistance in the event of an emergency. These plans, particularly for minesweeping and the protection of shipping, are well advanced. They are based on ships and aircraft in existence or building. We have been assisting them in the way of equipment and ships to the extent that is in our power, and the transfer to the Belgians of six minesweepers, to which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, made reference,
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was effected in accordance with that policy. I am surprised that any exception has been taken to the transfer of ships to Western European countries and to the Commonwealth. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to some ships which had been transferred.
EARL HOWE: To foreign countries, not to Commonwealth countries.
VISCOUNT HALL: To foreign countries which include Western Union countries.
EARL HOWE: And China.
VISCOUNT HALL: This ship was transferred in payment of a debt which we owed the late Government of China. What happened to the ship afterwards was not the responsibility of the Admiralty.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, referred to a report of the establishment of a Russian base on an Albanian island, a matter previously mentioned in this House by the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood. The strategic usefulness of sites on the Albanian coast is apparent, and I agree that the existence of an operational naval base in this vicinity would be of great importance and concern. I can say, however, that there is no reason to believe that Russian submarines are at present based there. Such port constructional activity as there is in Albania appears to be devoted largely to exploiting Albanian mineral resources and to handling a small and diminishing proportion of freight from satellite countries.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, also asked about a committee we set up some little while ago to investigate the problem of naval re-engagements that is now causing us considerable concern. The committee have been asked to make a thorough investigation into every aspect of this problem, and their terms of reference have been drawn sufficiently wide for this to be done. We are expecting a report by the end of next month, and I assure your Lordships that action to provide incentives to encourage a greater number of men to reengage for pension is not being delayed pending submission of the Re-engagements Committee's report.
In the course of his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Winster, referred to the exercise which was carried out by the United States Forces. I have no doubt he saw

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a report which appeared in the Press. The exercise did not take place in the Philippines but in the Caribbean.
LORD WINSTER: Off Porto Rico, I now understand.
VISCOUNT HALL: It was an exercise of the magnitude which the noble Lord claimed for it. In addition to 80,000 personnel, there were a large number of ships and a much larger number of aircraft engaged. We had observers there who followed the exercise with great interest. We have not yet had a complete report because the exercise took place in March, but I can promise the noble Lord that every aspect of that exercise will be studied. As he knows, there is the closest possible liaison between ourselves and the United States Navy, and he may be sure that the Board of Admiralty together with the naval authorities of the other allied countries will take cognisance of whatever lessons are to be learned from this exercise. The noble Lord also said he wished that there were some realism imported into our defence work. I ask him whether he knows of any Government during the post-war period which have given so much consideration to, spent so much money on and had greater problems to handle in Defence than the present Government. In fairness to the Service Departments, it must be said they have taken an entirely realistic view of the problems with which they are beset.
LORD WINSTER: Perhaps I may interrupt the noble Viscount. I will look at my words to-morrow, but my recollection is that I was not saying anything about those concerned with our defence matters not doing their work in a spirit of realism; I was referring to people putting their trust in organisations instead of, in the words which the noble Viscount himself used, in "our own strong right arm." To the best of my recollection, that was my reference to any spirit of unreality in discussing these matters.
VISCOUNT HALL: I have no doubt that one can check the words of the noble Lord. I feel that I ought to detain the House for a few minutes longer in order to deal with some of the other questions. Reference has been made. particularly by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to the question of Naval Reserves.
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The Navy have immediately available nearly 70,000 officers and men in the organised reserves, and this number is expected to rise by about 10 per cent. in the next twelve months, principally as a result of increases in the R.N.R., R.N.V.R., and R.M.F.V.R. and the entry of men into the R.N. Special Reserve. The strength of the Naval Reserves at the present time is much greater than it was in 1938 or, indeed, in 1939.
I was particularly interested in the speech made by my noble friend Lord Mountevans, who asked a number of questions, as did the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, in relation to the important subject of the recruitment and training of officers. The first reference made by the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, was to Dartmouth, and he asked some questions about equipment and training there. As I promised your Lordships over two years ago, we have done our utmost to ensure that the same high quality of cadets is maintained under the new age-sixteen entry scheme; and I think we have succeeded. The boys we are getting are a good type and a good cross-section of the community. Notwithstanding what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, half the boys are coming from the public schools. Most of the others are coming from State schools, and a few from Naval training establishments. No boy is prevented from entering Dartmouth by his parents' lack of means, since the only charge is for clothing, and incidentals, varying from nothing to £30 a term, depending on the means of the parents. It is, of course, too early to make any final judgment on these new cadets, as the first of them do not leave the college until July, and the real test will come, as with all other cadets, when they have finished their training and joined the Fleet as lieutenants. But preliminary reports from the College are good, for the new cadets have been well up to the standard, both educationally and in officer-like qualities. I am confident that Dartmouth will continue to produce as fine a naval officer in the future as it has done in the past.
As is known to your Lordships, Dartmouth is not the only way to commissioned rank. There is also the Special Entry at eighteen where we can, if necessary, make up any deficiencies from the

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age-sixteen entry. Then we have, as the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, rightly said, a valuable Upper Yardman scheme for promotion from the lower deck. This is working very well indeed, and the Upper Yardman College is soon to be moved to Dartmouth to occupy accommodation which has become vacant as a result of the reduction in the number of cadets at the College following the raising of the entry age. This move will serve the double purpose of making a valuable saving by closing down H.M.S. "Hawke" and also of establishing the Upper Yardmen in the unrivalled atmosphere of Dartmouth. Your Lordships will be interested to know that promotions from the lower deck now provide up to 25 per cent. of all officers in the executive and supply branches and Marines. and up to 15 per cent. in the engineering and electrical branches. First-rate officer material is being obtained, and every effort is made to see that possible candidates are not overlooked.
Altogether, the entry of officers into the various branches of the Navy is satisfactory, both in quality and quantity, except, as has been pointed out by a number of noble Lords this afternoon, in relation to pilots and observers. The Board of Admiralty regard this as one of our most serious problems. We have only partially met the requirements by the recent granting of 220 permanent commissions to extended-service officers, and we are considering further changes and improvements in the conditions of service of air crews. We are already taking steps to improve the prospects of civil resettlement for short-service officers, both in civil aviation and other professions, and we are also doing everything possible to bring home to all ranks of the Navy the vital importance of naval aviation. The lack of short-service pilots and observers means that in a few years our Reserve position, at present covered by demobilised war-time officers, may become serious. To remedy this we have recently announced a scheme for training National Service men as pilots and observers. We need forty men per quarter, and I hope that many of the young men unable to do their National Service in other branches of the Royal Navy as the result of the reduction of our National Service intake to 2.000 will not forget that here is
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an excellent chance of doing their service in naval aviation.
The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, raised a specific point in the course of his speech on which I intervened to inform him of what I thought had been done to deal with certain sections of the persons on whose behalf he made his plea. I will check up, as no doubt will the noble Lord, with those persons who know conditions such as he described, and perhaps he and I can further discuss the matter and iron out any difficulties which still exist. I am afraid that I have taken up rather a lot of your Lordships' time, but I thought it was necessary to deal fully with the questions which have been raised. There is not time to answer some of the questions, but I promise noble Lords who have submitted their points of view that I will carefully study them, and if it is possible to take advantage of their knowledge and of the information which they have given, then I and my colleagues in the Board of Admiralty will certainly do so. In conclusion, I would say that the spirit and morale of the Royal Navy is as sound and as high as ever it was. I feel sure that, notwithstanding certain gloomy outlooks expressed by some noble Lords to-day, in their hearts, after hearing my statement, they will say: "After all, the Navy stands where it was."
6.0 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I will detain the House for only a few moments. I was interested to hear the First Lord say that in his opinion the Navy had not done badly with the allocation of money it had received. I think that is probably true, but he has not really answered my question whether financial considerations are having any effect on the slowing down of the modernisation of the Fleet. But perhaps he intended to suggest that that modernisation was proceeding.
VISCOUNT HALL: I did intimate that we were spending £10,000,000 more on development and research—about £2,000,000 on research and the remainder on development.
LORD TEYNHAM: I am very glad to hear the noble Viscount's explanation. I should like to make just one point with reference to the naval aircraft G.R.17. Of course, I am aware that it is a very efficient and up-to-date craft which embodies all the necessary instruments

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for combating submarines, but there is still this point: that we cannot have a fleet carrier with every convoy and, therefore, we must have aircraft which can land on the small aircraft carriers and escort carriers. I am very glad to hear that more minesweepers are to be laid down as soon as possible, because I am sure that they are a vital necessity. I am still a little disappointed at the lack of provision of high-speed escort vessels, and I am still not convinced that our present escort vessels are capable of dealing with the high-speed boosted submarine.
The noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, raised the question of the training of the young officer. I think it was the First Lord who indicated some time ago in your Lordships' House that the new Dartmouth scheme was, in fact, a trial scheme, and I fully realise that it has not had time to prove its worth, but perhaps there is sufficient information to show that the continuance of the scheme should be seriously considered. Each year it is more difficult to rectify if a
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change is to be made. I maintain that under the old Dartmouth scheme, with the entries of thirteen and thirteen and a half, coupled of course with the seventeen and a half Special Entry of the upper yardsmen from the lower deck, the Navy obtained the best cross-section of boys from all walks of life. I do not think that is quite so true to-day as it was. I hope the First Lord will watch this scheme very carefully indeed, because the whole future of our officers will depend upon the College's taking a really first-class section of boys representing every walk of life. I do not propose to keep the House any longer on the many points with which I should still like to deal, and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

RUNCORN-WIDNES BRIDGE BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at three minutes past six o'clock.