Sitting of 29 March 1950

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  ETON RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL (By Order)
  Read a Second time, and committed.
  AYCLIFFE DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION (DISTRICT HEATING) BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  DUNDEE CORPORATION (ADMINISTRATION AND GENERAL POWERS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Dundee Corporation (Administration and General Powers)," presented by Mr. McNeil; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 7.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Materials
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Postmaster-General what amounts of materials are used in the provision of television services which might otherwise be used for speeding up the provision of telephones.
    The Postmaster General (Mr. Ness Edwards): Many materials are required for the provision of television services; among the principal ones used for extending the B.B.C.'s service to the Midlands were: steel 365 tons; lead 176 tons; and copper 102 tons. These amounts,
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    which are approximate, represent the combined user by the B.B.C. and the Post Office in providing the transmitting station, the radio communicating link and the cables associated with the link. In addition, buildings were provided costing £80,000. It is not possible to say to what use such material might be put if television were not extended.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this actual material could have been used for the provision of telephones if it were not used for the other purpose?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Cable, which is the most expensive item, can always be used for Post Office purposes, even if eventually it is not required for the television purposes.

    Belfast
    Mr. McKibbinasked the Postmaster-General what is the date of the earliest unsatisfied application for a telephone in Belfast.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: 2nd September, 1941. As indicated in my reply to the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Lieut-Colonel Hyde) on 15th March, measures are in hand to relieve the present shortage of telephone plant in Belfast and this and other long-standing applications should be met by the end of the year.
    Mr. McKibbin: Does this apply to business as well as private telephones?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Yes, Sir.

    Government Departments
    Mr. J. Morrisonasked the Postmaster-General what are the numbers of telephones at present installed in Government Departments, in industrial premises, commercial premises, and private residences, as compared with the end of 1945.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Statistics are not available in the precise form required by the hon. Member, but I hope that the following information will meet his requirements: At 31st March, 1946, there were 86,300 telephone exchange lines serving Government Departments and by 31st December, 1949, the number had been reduced to 44,000. In the same period, the number of lines to business premises had increased from 973,000 to 1,379,000, and those to private residences from 1,189,000 to 1,511,000.
    Mr. Morrison:Does not the Minister think that he could usefully reduce still further some of the Government telephones and supply them to businesses and productive enterprise?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: A cut of 50 per cent. in so short a time reflects credit on the Post Office, but we will watch the position as carefully as we can.
    Mr. Peter Roberts: Will the Minister say into which category the National Coal Board comes, a Department or a business?
    Sir H. Williams: Neither.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I would like to see the question put by the hon. Member for Heeley (Mr. P. Roberts) on the Order Paper.

    Portslade
    Mr. Marloweasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a scheme to provide extended telephone facilities at Mile Oak, Portslade, Sussex, which was expected to be completed about last Christmas, has now been postponed; why this has been done; and when it is proposed to resume work on this scheme.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: It has been necessary to withdraw the labour from this residential district for more important work elsewhere in the Brighton telephone area. The work at Mile Oak should be resumed within the next six months.
    Mr. Marlowe: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this scheme has advanced as far as intending subscribers signing contracts? Are these contracts, when entered into by a Government Department, binding on only one side? Are these people to understand that their failure to have a telephone now is entirely due to the bungling of the nation's finances by the Socialists?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: This is a question of making general arrangements for a much larger development of the telephone service in that area. If we had proceeded on the old plan it would have resulted in less speed in dealing with the problem in the Brighton area.

    Specialised Employees (Houses)
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the Postmaster-General what steps he is
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    taking to provide houses for specialised employees, such as telephone maintenance engineers, stationed permanently in villages.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: In the absence of special circumstances it would obviously be improper for me to attempt to secure priority for Post Office staff in the matter of housing. Where, however, an essential service has to be provided in a remote area, such as the Western Islands of Scotland, the Post Office is ready to consider buying or erecting houses for its staff, if accommodation would otherwise be unobtainable.
    Mr. Macpherson: Why does the right hon. Gentleman not consider erecting houses in cases where, if a man is promoted, his successor obviously will go down to the bottom of the list and may never get a house at all until he is promoted or loses his job?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not want to be involved in a tied house controversy.

    North Devon
    Brigadier Petoasked the Postmaster-General (1) whether he is aware that the number of favourable replies to the frequent letters of the hon. and gallant Member for North Devon on the subject of the provision of telephones for his constituents has dropped to practically nil in the last 12 months; and if he will consider taking some action to improve the present unsatisfactory situation in that constituency;
    (2) what is the number of farmers in North Devon who have made application for a telephone but who cannot at present have one; what is the main cause of delay; and what steps he is taking to increase the telephone service in rural areas throughout the country.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am aware of the position. Substantial progress has, however, been made in providing telephone service to North Devon farmers; 169 were given service in the past 12 months, while 146 new applications were received; 268 applications are outstanding. In rural areas generally, over 12,000 farmers' lines have been provided in the past 12 months, and over 2,000 kiosks.
    Brigadier Peto: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of these people have been waiting since 1944 for

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    a telephone to be installed? Does he not think that some more drastic action should be taken than is now being taken? If wooden poles are difficult to obtain will he not introduce a temporary method of connecting farms without using the usual large poles?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the National Farmers' Union in that area has sent us a letter of appreciation on the vigorous steps that are now being taken.
    Mr. Anthony Nutting: Will the right hon. Gentleman review the practice followed by his predecessor at the Post Office, of using precious labour and materials in removing telephones from some houses and putting them in others? Would he please review this policy, which has undoubtedly led to a shortage of telephones in many districts?

    Grimsdyke Exchange
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that subscribers connected to the Grimsdyke exchange are experiencing considerable delays owing to the fact that the exchange is not fully automatic; how soon an automatic system is likely to be established; and what immediate action he will take to improve the situation.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Regular observations indicate that the service given by this exchange in recent months has been quite good, but if the hon. Member will give me particulars of cases of delay, I shall be pleased to investigate them. There are much older manual exchanges than Grimsdyke still in service, and in view of the limited supplies of new equipment available to the Post Office I cannot say when this exchange will be converted to automatic working.

    Wordsworth Exchange
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Postmaster-General what is the average delay in installing telephones against normal application in the district served by the Wordsworth exchange.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Where line plant is available a normal application for telephone service in the Wordsworth exchange area should be met within three to seven weeks, according to the priority of the application.
    Mr. Harvey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are, in fact, cases of up to three years' delay?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that, but that deals with cases where there is no line plant. The hon. Member will be pleased to know that 870 people will be connected to the service by the end of the year, when the new line plant is put in.

    Macclesfield and Congleton
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Postmaster-General how many applicants are waiting for telephones, both business and private, in Macclesfield and Congleton; and how many telephones have been installed in these districts during the last 12 months.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Ninety-nine business and 149 residential applicants are waiting for service in Macclesfield. The corresponding figures for Congleton are 46 and 41; 146 and 58 exchange lines were provided during the last 12 months in Macclesfield and Congleton, respectively.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that applicants for new telephones are continually told that there is not a line available? Will he try to give them further information as to when they can expect a line, and, further, try to improve these conditions in the North-West of England?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that this is a matter which causes considerable worry, and I am giving very close attention to it.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Could my right hon. Friend inform the House how the figures for the last 12 months compare with the number of installations in 1938?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I have already done that.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: And comparable figures for 1892?

  POST OFFICE

    Pension Scheme
    Mr. McAddenasked the Postmaster General whether he is aware that a number of postmen, who enrolled in the

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    Widows' and Children's and the Dependants' Pension Scheme under the Superannuation Act, 1949, were not fully aware of their rights to contract out of the scheme; and whether he will afford further opportunity to contract out to such as so desire.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: All established postmen were supplied with a form of option on which they could contract out of the Widows' and Children's Pension Scheme if they so desired. The form, which was agreed with the Staff side of the National Whitley Council, was accompanied by an explanatory booklet. During the period of option further publicity was arranged, both officially and through the staff associations, in order to ensure, so far as possible, that everyone completed the option in accordance with his wishes. The Superannuation Act, 1949, gives no power to Ministers to afford a further opportunity to staff to contract out after the termination of the six months period provided by the Act. I regret, therefore, that I cannot meet the hon. Member's request.
    Mr. McAdden: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look at this form again? He will find that there were two options which people could choose, and that there was another section which said, "If you do not wish to exercise either of these options, sign here." A lot of men who signed this section were under the impression that they put themselves out the scheme by so doing. The explanatory leaflet was not given to all the men at the time, and there was a great deal of misunderstanding.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am sorry, but I have no power to interfere, although I appreciate that there might have been some misunderstanding. The Act prohibits me from interfering.

    Postmen, Bacup (Retiring Age)
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Postmaster-General what has been the average age at which Bacup postmen have retired during the past 15 years; and how many postmen during that time have served as postmen until the age of 60 years.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Of the 11 postmen at Bacup who have retired during the
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    past 15 years, two were between 30 and 40 and the remainder between 50 and 59.

    Government Departments
    Mr. John Morrisonasked the Postmaster-General what is the latest total annual telephone, telegraph and postal bill for each of the chief Departments of State.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The estimated cost of postal, inland telegraph and inland telephone services to be rendered to each Exchequer Government Department is shown annually in Appendix F to the Post Office Estimates. Bills are not rendered for these services, but credit is taken in bulk in the Post Office Commercial Accounts.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: But how can the Departments bring about economies if they do not know what they are paying for?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: These Estimates are made in conjunction with the Treasury and the Departments concerned.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that civil servants would be more careful in the use of the telephone if the cost of calls was charged to the Department concerned?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: If the hon. Member will wait for the answer to the next Question, he will see that economy has been achieved.

    Facilities, Langham and Peldon
    Mr. Alportasked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the withdrawal of Post Office facilities from Langham and to the proposal to close the Post Office at Peldon; and what action he intends to take to ensure that proper Post Office facilities are available in both these villages.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Owing to the resignation of the sub-postmistress, it was necessary temporarily to close the sub-post office at Langham on 25th February. It is hoped to re-open this sub-post office in new premises within the next two or three weeks. Meantime, a clerk from the Colchester Heal Post Office attends the village between the hours of 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. and 5 p.m. on Fridays for the payment of pensions and allow-

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    ances and the conduct of Post Office business generally. The hon. Member is under a misapprehension with regard to Peldon. The present sub-postmaster is resigning on 31st of this month, but a successor has been appointed to take up duty on 1st April in new premises quite near to the existing premises.
    Mr. Alport: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great hardship involved for rural communities, particularly old age pensioners, as a result of any intermission in postal facilities? Would he bear in mind that one of the reasons why it is so difficult to get sub-postmasters in villages is the totally inadequate rate of remuneration which they receive at present?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: These rates are agreed between the Sub-Postmasters Federation and the Whitley Council. I agree that it is a hardship on old age pensioners, but we have taken special steps to try to relieve that hardship.

    Aircraft (Mail Carrying)
    Mr. John Grimstonasked the Postmaster-General if he will consider abolishing the form which must be signed by captains of aircraft landing in the United Kingdom from abroad which certifies that the aircraft is not carrying any mail.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: A declaration of compliance with the Post Office Act in regard to the handing over of mail is required by Section 27 (2) of the Act of 1908 as amended by the Post Office (Amendment) Act, 1935. I am, however, considering whether the form in use can be simplified and I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as my inquiries are complete.

    Private Correspondence
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Postmaster-General to what extent censorship is imposed on private correspondence in Great Britain.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: There is no postal censorship of private correspondence in Great Britain.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the widespread activities of the Post Office, is the right hon. Gentleman quite sure that there
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    are no Gestapo methods or censorship unofficially, without his knowledge?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I should hate to be the victim of a Gestapo of that sort.

    Identity Cards
    Mr. Martin Lindsayasked the Postmaster-General under what circumstances the production of an identity card is required in connection with matters handled by the Post Office.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Evidence of identity may be required in connection with the opening of a savings bank account, the payment of moneys, and the delivery of a postal packet to a caller at a Post Office.
    Mr. Lindsay: Does the right hon. Gentleman really believe that the wartime system of identity cards should be continued indefinitely? If not, surely it would be better to discontinue their use in connection with Post Office activities?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: In view of the strictures that have been passed on the Post Office in connection with frauds that have occurred, it is up to the Post Office to take advantage of all the facilities open to it to protect both its depositors and the public.
    Mr. Lindsay: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that identity cards can be easily forged, and frequently are?

    Alleged Losses in Post (Inquiry)
    Mr. Dainesasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a London football club has lost money and tickets in the post; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Irvingasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a football club has lost both tickets and money in the post; and what action he proposes to take to investigate this matter.
    Mr. Harry Wallaceasked the Postmaster-General what action he has taken upon the complaints made to him by the directors of the Tottenham Hotspur Football Club that they have lost values due to dishonesty of Post Office servants.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Prior to the recent statements in the Press, no complaints

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    from the directors of the Tottenham Hotspur Football Club regarding losses in the post had reached the Post Office. Immediately the statements in the Press came to my notice, the directors of the club were invited to furnish such details as would enable any losses in the post immediately to be investigated. A meeting with representatives of the football club took place yesterday and information regarding certain alleged losses in the post has now been provided. The club has produced no evidence of posting by registered post tickets which they allege were not delivered. A full investigation is now continuing.
    Mr. Irving: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is growing discontent about the distribution of tickets by football clubs, particularly by the Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, which happens to be in my constituency, and that I receive more complaints than any other Member in the House? Would the Minister hold a further inquiry and, if necessary, call upon the hon. Member for Wood Green to give evidence on this matter?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: In the seven cases in which it was alleged that registered packets had been lost in the post it was proved that the packets had been received on the football club's premises.
    Sir H. Williams: On a point of Order. Is not an hon. Member supposed to be responsible for any statements contained in his Question?
    Mr. Wallace: Can my right hon. Friend say when the investigations will be completed, and whether the directors will be asked to make a statement founded upon the results of the investigations and give it the same publicity as they gave to their charges?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not want to prejudge the results of this inquiry, but I hope that justice will be done by all concerned.

    Engineering Officers Association
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General whether he has now received the consent of the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association to disclose material furnished by them to him with reference to the mem-
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    bership figures of that association; what percentage that membership represents of the total organised workers in the appropriate grade; and how long that figure has been in excess of 40 per cent.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association have agreed to my disclosing that they claim to have in membership over 40 per cent. of the total number of the grade concerned. This claim was first notified to the Post Office on 8th October, 1949.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view of the slight vocal emphasis upon the word "claim" which the right hon. Gentleman used, is he aware that his predecessor said on 2nd November last that he did not dispute those figures?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I believe that my predecessor admitted that a claim had been made, but I am not aware that he admitted that it had been substantiated. In fact, there is a great doubt about that.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he looked at HANSARD he would find there the words:
    "… I am not disputing their figures—"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd November, 1949; Vol. 469, c. 390.]
    Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what processes he goes through to substantiate or otherwise verify this claim?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not think I ought to be pressed to make a further statement about a matter which is to be the subject of a further statement in the House. I would ask hon. Members to leave the matter until I make that statement on the general position.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the Minister aware that this question does not relate to the general issue but to the facts with respect to a certain association? Can he explain why he is so anxious that these figures should not be given to the House?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am not anxious that the figure should not be given to the House. The House should have all the information that is available. I have sought authority to give these figures, authority which I did not have before. As far as I understand the position, while

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    my predecessor did not dispute these figures neither did he confirm them, and I am not in a position to confirm them today.

    Officials (Salaries)
    Mr. Boyd - Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that under rules for starting pay on promotion, temporary promotion and substitution pay issued with Post Office Circular of 21st September, 1949, officers previously in the redundant grade of sorter at the maximum scale for that grade and now employed as postal and telegraph officers receive on this promotion 7s. per week less than under the former rules; what is the reason for this reduction; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The starting pay rules to which the hon. Member refers were introduced on 1st September, 1949, throughout the Civil Service, by agreement with the staff side of the National Whitley Council. It was recognised that there would be a few cases in which the new rules would be less favourable; but it was agreed with the staff side that, in the interests of simplicity, no exceptions to the general rules should be allowed. Under the new rules, the sorters in question, on promotion to postal and telegraph officer, will receive an increase of 12s. per week; and I can see no grounds for making any exceptional arrangement in their favour.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: May I take it from that answer that the right hon. Gentleman accepts the fact that certain of these men do, in fact, get 7s. a week less than they did under the previous arrangements? Is he satisfied that the interests of these men were properly represented on the staff side?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I must stand by the agreements which have been made between the both sides, and I should imagine that in this matter the trade union are quite competent to look after the interests of their members. The other point is that the 7s. difference is a 7s. difference in an increase—they are not getting 7s. less. It is true that they are getting 7s. less than they would have had under the old arrangements.

    Broadcasting Wavelengths
    Brigadier Raynerasked the Postmaster-General when and how the broadcasting wavelengths agreed at Copenhagen may be revised.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The plan agreed at Copenhagen can only be revised by a conference of Governments of the European broadcasting area. Such a conference is due to be arranged within 18 months of the Radio Administrative Conference which is expected to open in 1952. Exceptionally, a European broadcasting conference could be convened earlier provided 10 of the Governments concerned submitted a request to the International Telecommunication Union.
    Brigadier Rayner: Is it not a fact that under the new allocation East to West broadcasts in Germany are stronger and clearer than ever, whereas West to East broadcasts are seriously interfered with? Is it not a fact that the Americans, who were not parties to the agreement, are pirating a lot of our wavelengths, and will the Minister press for an early conference?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am having a preliminary discussion about this matter tomorrow, as a result of which, I hope, steps will be taken to improve the position.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Bombing Range, Idlicote
    Mr. Profumoasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will hold further consultations with the Minister of Agriculture before finally deciding to retain the 395 acres of good agricultural land south of Idlicote in Warwickshire as a permanent practice bombing range.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Arthur Henderson): No, Sir. Full consultations have taken place between my Department and the Ministry of Agriculture with regard to the desirability of retaining these 395 acres. The site, which has been in use as a practice bombing range since 1942, was, in fact, suggested by the county war agricultural executive committee as the area of the least agricultural value in the locality. Only 25 acres out of the 395 constitute the immediate

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    target area and I am arranging for the remaining 370 acres to be fully available for agriculture, including ploughing.
    Mr. Profumo: Is the Secretary of State aware that conditions now are quite different from what they were during the war and that although the Minister says he is arranging for an area to be cultivated, that area cannot be fully cultivated because of the inaccuracy of the bombing, which is, on many occasions, over a mile from the actual bombing range and has already caused the serious maiming of three children? The bombing takes place at the last minute, and the local farmers cannot make plans to till and cultivate this land any further.
    Mr. Henderson: I do not wish to minimise the effect of the injuries of the three children, but that unfortunate accident was caused not by inaccurate bombing, but by a mechanical defect in the bombing apparatus. It might have happened anywhere. It was not due to inaccurate bombing. As the House knows, my Department are placed in very great difficulties over bombing. Wherever we seek to use ground for practice there is always some objection.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: When the right hon. and learned Gentleman says that the accident might have happened anywhere, does he thereby imply that bombs are carried and that bomb dropping equipment switches are being used on all occasions?

    Bombing Practice, Friskney
    Commander Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that considerable damage was caused to property in Skegness, Burgh, and other neighbouring localities by blast from heavy bombs dropped on the bombing range at Friskney, Lincolnshire, during the week ended on Saturday, 18th March; and if he will state what steps he is taking to investigate the causes and to prevent a recurrence.
    Mr. A. Henderson: A full investigation is being made into the matter. In the meantime, all bombing practice on the range has been suspended.
    Commander Maitland: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that the information was given to his Depart
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    ment shortly after the first occurrence, that no action was taken and that considerable damage was done the following week-end? Does he realise that very considerable sums will be asked for from the Treasury to meet the cost of repairs? Why was action not taken very much more quickly?
    Mr. Henderson: As to the question of considerable damage, the investigation is to ascertain the extent of any damage which may have taken place. Compensation will be paid in respect of any damage which can be shown to be attributable to this bombing practice. I can only regret it if there was delay, but, as soon as it was brought to my notice I took action to stop the bombing until the investigation has been completed.

    Meteorological Service
    Mr. Higgsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that since the re-allocation of broadcasting wavelengths his Department has ceased to provide weather broadcasts from their air meteorological stations; and, in view of the fact that this service was of considerable value to farmers and others, what steps he proposes to take to reinstate the service in the near future.
    Mr. A. Henderson: This meteorological broadcast service was introduced and primarily used for civil aviation purposes. I am, however, aware that it was useful to other interests besides civil aviation and discussions are now taking place to determine whether alternative provision can be made for them.

    Towed Targets
    Mr. Ian Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Air how many aircraft and of what type are available to provide towed target practice for anti-aircraft practice camps; how many practising hours they were scheduled to fly during 1949; and how many hours they actually did fly.
    Mr. A. Henderson: Eighty-six aircraft of types including Beaufighters, Spitfires and Vampires are available for towed target practice for anti-aircraft practice camps. These aircraft were authorised to fly a total of 10,000 hours although the flying hours actually demanded for the practice camps in 1949 totalled only

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    7,000 hours. 4,637 hours were flown, cancellation of the balance being largely due to bad weather.

    Cemetery, Heligoland
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Air whether it will be possible to give orders that the bombing of the cemetery on the Island of Heligoland shall cease.
    Mr. A. Henderson: Arrangements have been made for a reconnaissance party to visit Heligoland next week, and to report on the present condition of the cemetery. Meanwhile, I have given instructions that bombing practice on Heligoland should be temporarily suspended until the party has made its visit and reported.
    Professor Savory: Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman read the protest of a fisherman that he has been unable to find his brother's grave owing to bombing by the Royal Air Force? Will it be possible to restore this grave?
    Mr. Henderson: I can only remind the hon. Gentleman that it does not follow that the damage has been caused by practice bombing. During the war the Royal Air Force dropped nearly 6,000 tons of bombs on this very small island, and I am afraid that the present condition of the island is very little more than a mass of rubble.
    Professor Savory: But did not the fisherman say that this bombing was in 1949?
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the consideration given to cemeteries and the assurance that cemeteries are not to be bombed, is my right hon. and learned Friend prepared to give a similar assurance that cities containing human beings will not be bombed?
    Mr. Henderson: I am not prepared to accept any suggestion that the Royal Air Force has deliberately bombed this cemetery, if it still exists in the present condition of Heligoland.

    W.R.A.F. (Titles)
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air if it is proposed to follow the example of the Army and to adopt Royal Air Force titles in the Women's Royal Air Force.
    Mr. A. Henderson: This matter is under consideration.
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: if this matter is under consideration, how is it that the right hon. and learned Gentleman let the Army get a jump ahead of him?
    Mr. Henderson: I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that the Army is not always ahead of the Royal Air Force.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Accident, Wales (Compensation)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether any compensation will be paid to the dependants of those who lost their lives in the recent air accident in which an Avro Tudor airliner crashed in Glamorgan.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Beswick): The payment of compensation is a matter between the operating company and the dependants.
    Mr. Janner: While appreciating that reply, may I ask my hon. Friend if he will say whether he will consider the question of compensation being paid by some kind of insurance in every case where a person travels by air, so that the unhappy difficulties which have arisen in this case may not arise in future, particularly in view of the fact that the incidence of accidents is not so great that it would not pay actuarily?
    Mr. Beswick: That is a different question, and I suggest that my hon. Friend should put it on the Order Paper.

    Landing Fees
    Mr. J. Grimstonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will extend to the De Havilland Dove the facility of making a single annual payment of £5 to cover all landing fees at State owned aerodromes by altering the qualification from an all up weight of 6,000 lb. to an unladen weight of 6,000 lb.
    Mr. Beswick: This concession of a cheap landing fee was made to assist the

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    private flyer of limited resources, and we are unable to extend it beyond the present limit.
    Mr. Grimston: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Dove aircraft is one of the more successful British civil aircraft and that it is precisely for that kind of aircraft that this concession was originally granted?
    Mr. Beswick: No, I do not think it was. It is for the cheaper aircraft and the flyer of more limited resources. The line has to be drawn somewhere and the arguments are that the line should be drawn lower rather than higher.

    Telephony Operators (Licence)
    Mr. J. Grimstonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he has any statement to make on the issue of a simplified and restricted civil radio telephony operators licence.
    Mr. Beswick: Yes, Sir. A simplified and restricted aircraft telephony operator's licence, which will permit the holder to operate pre-tuned equipment, is to be introduced, and the necessary amendment to the Air Navigation Regulations is in preparation.

    Accident, Manchester (Report)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smilesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on what date he proposes to publish the report and the reasons for the accident to the aircraft flying from Belfast to Manchester in August, 1949.
    Mr. Beswick: The report is being printed and will be published as soon as possible.

    Ringway Airport
    Sir W. Smilesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what equipment and methods are used to enable aircraft to approach and land at Ringway Airport in bad weather conditions.
    Mr. Beswick: The radio aids available at Ringway to assist pilots to approach to landing in bad weather are: SBA; MF non-directional beacon; VHF direction finding station; MF direction finding station. Instrument approach proce-
    390
    dures recommended for use with each of these aids are shown on charts published by the Ministry of Civil Aviation and are also promulgated in Ministry of Civil Aviation Information Circular No. 106/1949 and amendments.
    Mr. Keeling: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether at airports "bad weather conditions" are the same as "bad weather," or something different?
    Mr. Beswick: The difference is usually between the weather forecasts and the bad weather experienced.

  CULTURAL CONGRESS (RECOMMENDATIONS)
  Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has studied the recommendations sent to him by the recent Cultural Congress held by the European Movement at Lausanne; and what action he is taking to implement them.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Younger): Yes, Sir. The majority of these recommendations deal with co-operation in the cultural and educational spheres between European countries and I am glad to say that this is already being actively pursued by the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation and the Permanent Commission of the Brussels Treaty Powers.
  Mr. Hynd: Is my hon. Friend giving a lead in the adoption of these recommendations?
  Mr. Younger: Most of the recommendations, which are very numerous, are, I think, already being covered by discussion in the various bodies to which I have referred and we must leave them in their hands at the moment.

  BURMA (BRITISH AID)
  Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken to publicise in Burma the extent of British financial aid to that country since the end of the war.
  Mr. Younger: The figures have from time to time been made available to the Press of Burma through the Information

  391
  Department of His Majesty's Embassy at Rangoon. The attention of His Majesty's Embassy was called to the desirability of keeping these figures before the Burmese public as recently as 17th March, 1950.
  Mr. Erroll: Has the cumulative total been given publicity similar to that given to the interim figures?
  Mr. Younger: I think the hon. Member will find that the total given in a recent answer by my right hon. Friend has been given that same publicity.

  CHINA (RECOGNITION)
  Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what benefits have accrued to date to British interests in the Far East as a result of the recognition of the Communist Government of China.
  Mr. Younger: His Majesty's Government's decision to recognise the Central People's Government was based on the facts of the situation in China which were such as to require recognition according to the standards of international law and practice and not on a calculation of immediate benefits. British interests have continued to encounter difficulties of various kinds since recognition was accorded. These have been in part due to the Nationalist blockade and in part to conditions prevailing in China.
  Mr. Gammans: But has His Majesty's Government balanced these problematical benefits against the undoubted dislike of the action by Australia, New Zealand and Canada, the encouragement given to Malayan bandits and the danger of having Chinese Communist consuls in the consulates in Malaya?
  Mr. Younger: We have tried to balance all these considerations. As the hon. Member knows, there is a division of opinion between different nations about this question of recognition. As regards the encouragement which may have been given in Malaya, it is, of course, true that there has been increased bandit activity and in so far as that might have been affected by events in China it would be much more likely to be due to the success
  392
  of Communist armies in China than to the effect of recognition.
  Mr. Nutting: Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the present position regarding the exchange of diplomatic representatives between China and this country?
  Mr. Younger: Negotiations are still going on, and if the hon. Member wants an immediate up-to-date answer, perhaps he will put down a Question.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the means of communication now open are being used to stop the extortions of penal monthly fines on European businesses still established in China, as that should be the first practical step resulting from the policy of His Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Younger: That is a different question. Our representative is, of course, doing what he can.

  CORFU CHANNEL INCIDENT (COMPENSATION)
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to obtain payment of the damages awarded to this country against Albania by the Hague Court as the result of the mining of two of His Majesty's ships in the Corfu Channel.
  Mr. Younger: I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Pickthorn) on 13th March.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that answer mean that no further action has been taken, and, if so, does it not make a farce of the Hague Court decision?
  Mr. Younger: In my previous answer I said we would be discussing the payment of damages with the Albanian Government at an early date. I think that that date has now become more nearly fixed, and we hope that it will be very early indeed.
  Mr. Marlowe: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that for a long time his answers to these Questions were to the effect that he could do nothing because the Hague Court was considering the

  393
  matter? Is he now saying that he can do nothing because the Hague Court is no longer considering the matter?
  Mr. Younger: No, I did not say that. A very large sum was awarded by the Court, as the hon. and learned Member probably knows. We are concerned with practical means of getting a settlement of this very large sum, which, I think, no one could expect to be paid immediately in one lump sum. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Obviously, there should be discussion.
  Mr. Eden: Will the Minister make a statement to the House about this very important subject before the Easter Adjournment?
  Mr. Younger: I cannot promise to do so before the Easter Adjournment, but as soon as there is any development—it might be before the Easter Adjournment—I will call the attention of my right hon. Friend to that wish.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: By what method do His Majesty's Government propose to open negotiations with the Albanian Government, as there is no representation between them?
  Mr. Younger: I do not think that the channel to be used is a matter of any real difficulty.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The House would like to know the time-table and the machinery to be used.
  Mr. Younger: If an exact time-table and all the details are wanted, perhaps the hon. Member will put down a Question.

  MALAYA (MINISTER'S VISIT)
  Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the disturbed situation in Malaya, he will consider arranging for the Secretary of State for the Colonies, personally, to pay a visit to that area at an early date.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I am hoping that it may be possible for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies to visit Malaya during the course of the summer.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the Prime Minister tell the House when the Secretary of State for the Colonies last visited Malaya? Does he not agree that a visit in the immediate future would be far more beneficial than one some months ahead, in order to encourage the people who are fighting the Communists?
  The Prime Minister: I think the campaign against the bandits is very fully organised. I cannot say the exact time, but I agree that it would be useful for my right hon. Friend to visit Malaya soon.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: In view of the considerable risks involved in such a journey, and in the interests of economy, would the right hon. Gentleman take a single ticket?
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Would the Prime Minister consider whether the Secretary of State for War should go, too?

  ARMED FORCES

    Deserters and Absentees
    Mr. Keenanasked the Minister of Defence if he will give the number of deserters and absentees from the Services at the end of the year 1945, not yet accounted for; and what consideration is being given to further efforts to terminate the desertion and absenteeism.
    Mr. F. Longdenasked the Minister of Defence if, in view of the length of time that has elapsed since the end of the last war and the deprivation of the men involved, he now will reconsider the question of granting an amnesty to the remaining 15,000 deserters.
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Defence how many deserters from the Armed Forces are still at large.
    Mr. Deedesasked the Minister of Defence what is the latest estimate by his Department of the numbers of deserters from the Army, Navy and Air Force, respectively; and how many of these relate to the period since the end of hostilities.
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Defence (1) how many deserters from the Services have been at large since the end of the last war and since March, 1947, respectively;

    395
    (2) whether he will now reconsider the question of an amnesty for deserters.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Defence how many members of His Majesty's Forces on 31st December, 1945, and on 31st December, 1949, respectively, were absent from their units; how many of those, though not proved to be dead, were then and are now unaccounted for; and how many have, and how many have not been traced to civil life, and have been convicted of criminal offences.
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Defence what is the number of deserters from the Second World War; and whether he will favourably consider granting an amnesty to this latter group.
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Minister of Defence the approximate number of deserters from the three Services at present at liberty; and how many of these have been absent for a period exceeding twelve months.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Shinwell): There are nominally 19,477 deserters from the Armed Forces; 1,267 from the Navy, 13,844 from the Army and 4,366 from the R.A.F. Most of these have been absent more than 12 months. About 5,000 of them deserted since the end of 1945. There has been a reduction of about 5,000 in the total number outstanding since the war including a decrease of 2,000 during the currency of the Government's original offer of leniency from January to March, 1947. Since then, however, the figures have declined slowly, recoveries by surrender or arrest having been almost counterbalanced by fresh desertions which continue at the rate of about 200 a month.
    The nominal total of a little under 19,500 is, however, greatly inflated for a number of reasons. For example, over 10,000 of the men came from the Irish Republic and most of these have probably found their way back to their former homes. Many deserted abroad. The total undoubtedly includes a substantial number of multiple desertions. Taking these factors into account there are perhaps not more than 7,000 or 8,000 deserters at large in this country at the present time; the true figure may well be smaller.
    396
    The question of an amnesty for these men has been considered on a number of occasions since the war and my predecessor explained to the House at length the considerations on which this step has hitherto been rejected. I cannot, today, add anything to those statements.
    Mr. Keenan: From the figures which my right hon. Friend has given is it not clear that there must be some thousands who deserted before the end of 1945, and who are still at large? Is my right hon. Friend aware that his predecessor promised lenient treatment if the deserters surrendered, and that the harsh treatment and sentences administered to those who did surrender does not encourage the rest to do so?
    Mr. Shinwell: I cannot agree that in the circumstances the sentences imposed were either harsh or vindictive. In fact, the actual sentences served, in probably all cases-there may be some exceptions—are quite unlike the sentences imposed. Sentences are imposed—it is a matter for the courts-martial; it is not in my hands—but in very few cases are the actual sentences served. I am looking into this matter with a view to informing hon. Members of the actual facts.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Has it not been the custom in the past, at the end of every war, for the Government to grant amnesties in cases like these? Why is it not the policy of His Majesty's present Government to follow suit?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is perfectly true that in 1922 the then Government granted an amnesty which applied to the deserters in the First World War, but there was no National Service problem at that time. The presence of the National Service element in the Forces undoubtedly causes some complications.
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: Is the Minister considering making any further offer of leniency to these men? I understood him to say that the sentences passed were the responsibility of the courts-martial. Is it not a fact that the Army Council reviews all sentences?
    Mr. Shinwell: The courts-martial operate within the policy laid down by the Army Council, the Air Council and I think the Board of Admiralty. I am not quite sure about the latter point, but

    397
    I think I am right about it. On the subject of leniency, I think that what is required is that the facts should be placed before hon. Members so that they should know exactly what is the position. That I am proposing to do.
    Mr. Eden: If I heard the figure aright, the current one is the most disturbing in the sense that there should be desertions on this scale. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information about it, and can he say whether he or any of the Service Departments have any explanation of why it should now be running at so high a level?
    Mr. Shinwell: I only discovered this overall figure myself in the course of inquiries for the purpose of replying to these Questions. I must confess that I am very much disturbed about the rate, but it is true to say that many of these desertions are not desertions in the ordinary sense but rather in the nature of absences without leave—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—which are due to a variety of reasons. Men are absent for a very short while, but the rate is, nevertheless, excessive.
    Mr. Eden: Is the right hon. Gentleman sure he is right on that point? My impression is that absence without leave cannot be tantamount to desertion, except after a certain period. That being so, I think the figures want some explanation.
    Mr. Shinwell: I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman, and I will look into it. When I spoke about absences without leave I meant that they did evolve into actual desertions.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Can the Minister give an assurance that he has not closed his mind entirely to the possibility of bringing to an end at an early date this miserable hangover from the Second World War, and will he bear in mind the precedent that the Government have already decided that even in the case of Nazi war criminals, no further prosecutions are to be undertaken?
    Mr. Shinwell: I must say to my hon. and gallant Friend, and to hon. Members generally, that this matter is very controversial. There are arguments on both sides, but I do not close my mind to some solution. I think that perhaps my hon.
    398
    and gallant Friend had better leave it with me.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. Gentleman set up an inquiry covering all three Services, to ascertain why there are 200 desertions a month?
    Mr. Shinwell: There will be an inquiry, and I will conduct it myself.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the fact that, at least apparently, 7,000 men have been unaccounted for for a period of years is contrary to good order, and would he consider setting up a committee to devise means whereby these men could be accounted for and restored to good citizenship?
    Mr. Shinwell: So far as we are concerned, we are very anxious to impose good order, but apparently there has not been a satisfactory response.
    Mr. Martin Lindsay: Is the Minister aware that a very large number of these long-term deserters have provided themselves with false identity cards, and will he therefore tell his right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General that it is quite ridiculous to attach such importance, as he did earlier today, to these documents?

    Sentences
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Defence (1) how many of those members of His Majesty's Forces now in prison were sentenced for crimes of turpitude; and how many for Forces offences; how many of these offences were proved to have been caused by or related to domestic trouble in the lives of the offenders; and if he will now take steps to review such cases;
    (2) If he will now reconsider and differentiate the cases of members of His Majesty's Forces sentenced for crimes of turpitude from those sentenced for Forces offences, during the war and since by courts martial; and if he will now take steps to provide an amnesty in suitable cases, so that as many as possible of those persons may be restored either to the Forces or to civil employment.
    Mr. Shinwell: I regret that the figures for which my hon. and learned Friend asks could not be made available without undue labour. I can, however, assure

    399
    him that all sentences awarded by courts-martial, whether of imprisonment or detention and whether for Service or other types of offences, are systematically reviewed and frequently reduced or suspended as a matter of normal Service procedure. He can also be assured that any extenuating domestic circumstances are taken into account both by courts-martial and by those whose duty it is subsequently to confirm or review their sentences. In these circumstances, I see no grounds for further action on the lines suggested.
    Mr. Hughes: With regard to the answer to Question No. 56, does my right hon. Friend remember the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Act, 1915, which authorised the suspension of sentences of penal servitude and imprisonment passed on soldiers during the First World War; and would he consider attempting to solve the present problem by some similar means?
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Sir, I am aware of the existence of that Act, but the provisions were purely permissive; in fact, to a very large extent what was contained in that Act is put into practice.

    Enlistments
    Mr. Alportasked the Minister of Defence whether he will take steps to ensure that before a National Service man is enlisted on a Regular engagement his parents or guardians are informed of his intention.
    Mr. Shinwell: No, Sir. Intending recruits, whether National Service men or others, have their responsibilities and conditions of service fully explained to them before being attested or engaged. If they are in any doubt as to undertaking a Regular engagement, they are at liberty to consult their parents or guardians.

    Overseas Quarters
    Major Tufton Beamishasked the Minister of Defence in which overseas theatres it is intended to start building the 2,000 quarters, forecast in the Statement on Defence, 1950, for the year 1950–51, showing temporary and permanent quarters separately.
    Mr. Shinwell: Final approval has not yet been given in all cases, but the num-
    400
    bers at present planned are as follows: Mediterranean and Middle East area, 200 permanent and 470 temporary; Far East, 1,200 permanent and 35 temporary; Other overseas areas, 30 permanent and two temporary.
    Major Beamish: Is the Minister aware that to start building 2,000 quarters in this period is only nibbling at the problem? Will he say how many of these quarters it is planned to finish in the next 12 months?
    Mr. Shinwell: I cannot reply to the latter part of the supplementary question without further notice; if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a Question I will try to furnish a reply. I cannot accept the earlier part of his supplementary question. I cannot agree that this is "nibbling at the problem." It is related to the requirements of these areas.
    Earl Winterton: Would the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these houses are the result of the Armed Forces (Housing Loans) Act which he brought forward, and which was supported by us on this side of the House, with opposition from his hon. Friends; and how many are merely the result of ordinary re-housing.
    Mr. Shinwell: None of the married quarters intended to be built and completed overseas are related to that Act at all.

    Registration and Voting (Procedure)
    Mr. Alportasked the Minister of Defence if he is aware that the complicated nature of the present Services registration and voting procedures had the effect of disfranchising a large number of members of the Forces during the recent General Election; and what steps he proposes to take to simplify these procedures in the immediate future.
    Mr. Shinwell: As I informed the House last week, I am not aware of any general defect in the Services registration or voting procedure, but if the hon. Member has any evidence to the contrary I shall be glad to have it investigated.
    Mr. Alport: Has the right hon. Gentleman read and studied War Office document 2211, which sets out the registration

    401
    and voting procedure, and which is an extremely complicated document? It makes it extremely difficult for any unit commander to understand clearly his responsibility, or any soldier to understand his responsibility in this matter.
    Mr. Shinwell: I think that underrates the intelligence of the average officer. The trouble does not arise from any lack of intelligence on the part of those in authority, but from the fact that the men do not take advantage of the opportunities provided.
    Mr. Keeling: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the notice about voting issued by the Navy for exhibition on ships' notice boards, which contains about 10,000 words? Does he think that any naval officer or rating would ever try to read any notice like that, and is not that a defect?
    Mr. Shinwell: I will inquire about the notice, to see whether it contains those many words.
    Brigadier Head: Is the Minister aware that there is a genuine misunderstanding and failure in this matter, and can he give the House an assurance that he will look into it before the next election?
    Mr. Shinwell: Certainly, Sir. I am looking into it just now.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Vegetables
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Food whether he will give an assurance that, during the peak production periods this year of tomatoes, early carrots and green peas, the home markets will not be destroyed by excessive imports from abroad.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Maurice Webb): The arrangements agreed between my Department and the Agricultural Departments for controlling the imports of tomatoes, early carrots and new peas, were designed to give home growers ample opportunity to market their produce at peak production periods. I am sending to the hon. and gallant Member a copy of the announcement which was issued last month and which gives the details. When he reads it I think he will feel much happier about this matter.
    Colonel Ropner: Can the Minister give an assurance that there is the closest liaison between his Department and the Ministry of Agriculture?
    Mr. Webb: We are certainly trying to improve it.
    Mrs. Middleton: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that housewives are not held to ransom by the prices charged?
    Mr. Webb: I must make it clear that the function and responsibility of the Ministry of Food is primarily to look after the interests of the consumer.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will this include a careful study of the imports across the border from England to Scotland?
    Mr. James Hudson: Will my right hon. Friend send to other hon. Members a copy of the announcement which he has promised to the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite? A number of us are extremely disturbed about it, on account of consumers.
    Mr. Webb: I am willing to arrange for it to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that we will not have a repetition of what happened two years ago, when imported tomatoes were withdrawn, and growers increased the price from 1s. 4d. to 2s. 8d. per lb.?
    Mr. Webb: I will try to avoid a situation of that kind.
    Following is the announcement:
    Import of Fresh Fruits and Vegetables
    The Board of Trade Journal for the 1st October, 1949, gave details of the decision of His Majesty's Government to issue open general licences for the importation into the United Kingdom from a number of countries of a wide range of goods, as part of a general policy for the liberalisation of intra-European trade.
    The list of goods to which this decision applied included a number of fresh fruits and vegetables, and in the issue of the Board of Trade Journal referred to above it was stated that for certain of these items the open general licence would be liable to suspension at certain periods of

    403
    the year during the main season of home production, the exact limits of these periods to be determined later in the light of seasonal availabilities.
    In agreement with the Ministry of Food and the Agricultural Departments, the Board of Trade have accordingly decided to suspend the open general licences for the various fresh fruits and vegetables listed below during the periods set out in the second column. The Ministry of Food will arrange with the Board of Trade that those items for which there is a limited importation (as shown

    —

    Period (inclusive) for suspension of Open General Licence

    Import Quantity

    Tons

    Asparagus

    …

    …

    …

    16th April to 30th June

    …

    …

    300

    Beans (Green)

    …

    …

    1st May to 30th June

    …

    …

    150

    1st July to 30th September

    …

    Nil

    Carrots (new)

    …

    …

    15th June to 31st July

    …

    …

    Nil

    Cauliflower and Broccoli

    …

    16th March to 30th June

    …

    …

    10,000

    1st July to 15th November

    …

    Nil

    Cherries

    …

    …

    …

    1st June to 31st July

    …

    …

    6,000

    Cucumbers

    …

    …

    …

    1st June to 31st July

    …

    …

    4,500

    Currants (black and red)

    …

    16th June to 31st August

    …

    …

    1500

    Gooseberries

    …

    …

    June to 31st July

    …

    …

    1,500

    Lettuce

    …

    …

    …

    16th May to 31st October

    …

    …

    Nil

    Onions (dry bulb)

    …

    …

    16th August to 15th November

    …

    Nil

    (excluding pickling onions for manufacture)

    Peas (Green)

    …

    …

    16th June to 31st July

    …

    …

    Nil

    Plums

    …

    …

    …

    16th July to 15th August

    …

    …

    6,000

    16th August to 30th September

    …

    Nil

    Potatoes (new)

    …

    …

    1st June to 31st July

    …

    …

    Nil

    Radishes

    …

    …

    …

    22nd April to 31st May

    …

    …

    Nil

    Rhubarb

    …

    …

    …

    16th April to 15th September

    …

    500

    (excluding rhubarb for canning)

    Strawberries

    …

    …

    1st June to 31st July

    …

    …

    2,500

    Tomatoes

    …

    …

    …

    1st July to 31st July

    …

    …

    …

    7,200

    1st August to 31st August

    …

    …

    2,300

    1st September to 15th October

    …

    Nil

    Turnips (new)

    …

    …

    1st May to 30th June

    …

    …

    100

    It is not proposed to suspend the present open general licences for the importation of chicory, endive and batavia, green onions, mushrooms, hothouse grapes and hothouse peaches.
    Those concerned are reminded that all imports of fresh fruits and vegetables coming within the terms of this notice are subject to the provisions of the Importation of Plants Orders and the Importation of Raw Cherries Orders made by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland.

    Dried Egg
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that poultry
    in the third column) will be included, for the periods specified, in the block licensing arrangements announced in the Ministry of Food Press notice No. 5596A dated 15th December, 1949, and subsequent Press notices.
    The quantities stated in the third column will be subject to review in the light of supplies available from home production. Further, it may prove necessary in some cases, if home supplies are not enough, to shorten the period of restricted importation during which the open general licence is suspended.
    keepers are perturbed about his Department's decision to import 14,200 tons of dried egg from America; and whether, in future, he will arrange for more adequate supplies of feedingstuffs to be made available in order that through an extension of the poultry industry in this country additional eggs may be produced at home.
    Lieut.-Colonel Corbettasked the Minister of Food what quantities of dried egg have been purchased from the United States of America during the last year; and at what pricé.
    Mr. Webb: As I explained in reply to similar Questions on Monday the recent purchase of dried egg was linked with the

    405
    financing by E.C.A. of part of our Canadian wheat purchases to the value of 175 million dollars. We agreed to buy perishable food from the United States and, therefore, the dollars could not be spent on feedingstuffs. In any case, this dried egg will be very welcome as we cannot get enough from other sources. During the past 12 months 16,950 tons have been bought from the United States at an average price of 31 cents a pound.
    Colonel Ropner: Could not the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that greater quantities of feedingstuffs will be available during the forthcoming year for poultry keepers in this country?
    Mr. Webb: That is a separate question. I could not deal with that matter on a Question directed to dried egg.
    Lieut.-Colonel Corbett: Is the Minister aware that consumers prefer fresh eggs, that farmers dislike the importation of cheap surplus products and that they want feedingstuffs?
    Mr. Webb: Fresh eggs are in abundant supply now. The dried egg goes to the manufacturers, who are very glad to have it.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how the price of 31 cents a pound compares with the price prevailing in America for this dried egg?
    Mr. Webb: Not without notice.

  INTERMEDIARIES (COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. MANNINGHAM-BULLER:
  45. To ask the Prime Minister whether the Committee on Intermediaries, set up in February, 1949, has concluded its deliberations; and whether its report is to be published.
  The Prime Minister: As the hon. and learned Member for Northants, South (Mr. Manningham-Buller), is unavoidably prevented from being in his place this afternoon to ask me Question 45, I should like, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, to read out the answer to that Question now. It is as follows:
  Yes, Sir, the Committee has concluded its deliberations and its Report is being published in the form of a White Paper which is available to hon. Members in the Vote Office. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking Sir Edwin Herbert and the other members of the Committee for their work, and of saying that the Government accept in general the conclusions of the Report and are taking steps to put into effect its recommendations.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
  Considered in Committee, reported without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  FUEL AND POWER
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Whiteley.]
  3.34 p.m.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: We on this side of the House have suggested for today's Debate the Ministry of Fuel and Power with special reference to dirty coal—the many complaints that are being received by hon. Members on all sides about the prevalence of dirty coal—and also the question of supplies of oil to the public. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, it was thought that it would be more convenient if we discussed coal in the early part of the Debate and oil later. Therefore, if you agree, I propose to devote my remarks to coal and leave it to the right hon. Gentleman who will wind up the Debate for us, to deal with oil.
  Before I discuss dirty coal, may I say that one of the problems facing this or subsequent Parliaments will be how we are to deal with the nationalised industries. It has been suggested already, and I think agreed by the Government, that a certain number of days out of their time should be devoted to each of the nationalised industries. But the question arises of how Debates are to take place on those days and what we shall get out of those Debates.
  One of the difficulties which faces the nation as a whole, and this House in particular, is how we are to control these nationalised industries in any detail. Where today does effective control lie? How can criticism be made effective? It seems to me that there is a tendency today for these industries to become responsible to nobody. Eventually we must decide where effective sanction lies and how effective sanction is to be applied. I take the National Coal Board as an illustration. Before the industry was nationalised, and when it was under
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  private enterprise, the managers of the pits were, broadly speaking, responsible. The manager of any pit which consistently sent out dirty coal eventually found himself in trouble with his directors. Probably, he either mended his ways or he got the sack.
  But now what happens under the present set-up? The individual who receives dirty coal complains; but he gets no effective redress. Under private enterprise, whatever drawbacks there may have been, the customer who got dirty coal changed his merchant. Today the customer can change his merchant once a year, but in the majority of cases he finds that he has merely jumped out of the frying pan into the fire—or rather into the grate. Under private enterprise, the merchant who consistently received dirty coal was able to change the source of his supply and buy from another pit. Today he is deprived of that recourse. All he can do is to accept the coal. He has to take what is sent.
  If a consumer writes to his Member of Parliament, the Member usually gets a long and, I am bound to say, a courteous reply from the Ministry, but it gets him no further forward. If we as an Opposition raise the matter in Debate and if our arguments are answered at all, which is not always the case, we are provided with a series of official excuses. We go to a Division, we are defeated by the Government, and necessarily the effect in the industry among the managers and so forth, is for them to say, "The Government have got away with it. It does not matter if we continue to supply dirty coal." That is the position today.
  One of the supplementary difficulties is that of bringing home these cases to the Government. I do not accuse the Coal Board of victimisation, but there is undoubtedly a widespread feeling among merchants that if they complain and allow their names to be put forward either in Debate or in a Member's letter to the Ministry, the Coal Board may take steps to victimise them. I do not say that I have got any evidence of that. I am not saying that I have got the evidence for that, or evidence of actual victimisation by the National Coal Board. I am saying that there is widespread fear, which makes the task of bringing concrete cases before the House extremely difficult.

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  We have had numbers of cases brought to our notice, and, in practically every single one, there is a paragraph which says "We hope you will not quote our names." [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes, plenty. I have a certain reluctance in putting forward cases in this House unless I am in a position to give the full facts and unless I have personally checked them. I do not propose to weary the House with a large number of cases, though I have two which I propose to quote. In these cases, in fact, the writer has definitely stated that we may quote his name. It is perfectly true also to say that he told us, when he gave us that permission, that he would probably get into serious trouble for doing so. These two cases happen to come from the constituency of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northants, South (Mr. Manningham-Buller).
  The first is that of a man whose case has been brought to the notice of the Department; there is a letter from the Parliamentary Secretary in the file, so that it is not a case of which the Department is ignorant. This is a letter from a customer who says:
  "Reading in last night's paper, the 'Northampton Chronicle and Echo,' that Mr. Noel-Baker would like details of the coal shortage, perhaps this would help. At Hackleton and Piddington (Northants), there are residents who had their last coal delivery six weeks ago (two and three cwts.), and have had no coal, slate or stone, etc., to burn for the last fortnight. One local firm had delivered between 1st November, 1949, and 11th February, 1950, 47 tons 19 cwts., against an allocation of 90 tons for that period. Can Mr. Noel-Baker find the missing 42 tons 1 cwt.?"
  A local coal merchant in the same area happens to be in a Co-operative Society, which no doubt will strike a chord of sympathy in the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The manager writes on 21st March:
  "At the time of writing, there is not a vestige of coal at this depot."
  That applies not only in his case, but to two other merchants as well. He goes on:
  "During the summer, supplies were not available for householders to stock up, and consequently the position is serious in the extreme."
  In answer to an earlier letter from the Parliamentary Secretary, who said that people could always get coal in case of
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  illness or emergency, this Co-operative Society manager says:
  "We cannot even supply coal against a priority certificate."
  The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that, if there was a shortage of deep-mined coal, the merchants should be able to make good with opencast, but this Co-operative Society tried, and the reply was that there had been such a demand in Warwickshire for opencast coal that the merchants were completely overwhelmed, with the result that none was to be obtained.
  In case the Minister should think that this is an isolated case in a small rural station in Northamptonshire, when the assistant house coal officer of the House Coal Distribution (Emergency) Scheme at Nottingham was appealed to, he said:
  "We note the tonnage you have received ex Warwickshire, and from the figures you give it would appear that your receipts have been in line with the general level of Warwickshire receipts."
  Clearly, this state of affairs does not apply to one isolated area, but to the country as a whole, and I have no doubt that other hon. Members could quote similar cases.
  The only other case which I want to quote is that of one of my own constituents. Here, I asked the leader of the Borough Council to make personal inquiries into conditions at Southport, and he says:
  "I went into this matter rather closely and it is no exaggeration to say that the Department is kept occupied for about half its time in dealing with complaints about quality."
  He goes on to say:
  "The cases which have been personally investigated of poor quality coal show that 20 per cent. of the supplies as an average are bass or stone."
  These are two cases for which we can definitely vouch, because we have the details, and I should like to know what answer the Minister is going to give. I hope that we shall not be given the old excuse about pre-war failure or the shortage of adequate washeries, because it is not true. [An HON. MEMBER: "Of course, it is."] As hon. Members will see in a moment, it certainly is not, and it certainly does not cover all the cases. If the hon. Gentleman will take the trouble to look up one of his own Government's publications, Command Paper

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  7548, the Statistical Digest, he will find in Table 45 this interesting statement:
  "Before the war, in 1938, the output of cleaned coal amounted to 103 million tons."
  The Department has not published any figures since 1947, and perhaps it would be of value if the right hon. Gentleman would see that his Department brought the figures up-to-date. The latest figure which we have, which is 1947, is only 90 million tons of coal which were clean, so that he will see that, although the percentage of washed coal before the war was slightly smaller than it is now, the actual amount, which is what matters, was really greater in pre-war days than it is now. I therefore hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not put forward that excuse, and that he will not repeat the fatuous excuse given on Monday week that the improved position before the war was due, relatively, to unemployment. There can rarely have been a more fatuous answer given by the Government than that.
  I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not pretend either that the fall was due, or was largely due, to the increased amount of coal which was mechanically mined, because, again, if he will look at his own statistics, he will find that coal was got mechanically before the war. He will discover that 58 or 59 per cent. of the coal was mechanically mined before the war, and that the percentage today is between 75 and 78. The difference between the amount of dirt in coal today and before the war is very much greater than the difference in the percentage of coal mechanically mined before the war and now. I therefore hope that we shall not have that excuse put forward.
  Indeed, if the Minister had thought of making that excuse, it might be well for him to remember what his predecessor but one, the present Minister of Defence, said in the course of the passage of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill. If he will look at HANSARD for 14th May, 1946, when we were discussing an Amendment put forward from this side of the House to improve the position of the consumer in regard to quality, he will find that his right hon. Friend, then Minister of Fuel and Power, said this:
  "The hon. Gentleman, who is not without intelligence and who has had long experience, knows full well that the situation today is quite different from what it was before the
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  war, and in the course of, perhaps twelve months or less, certainly no longer than twelve months, we shall have corrected the position and we shall be able to adopt screening methods.… I hope, after that, they will no longer require to discriminate between the normal coal supplies and the inferior coal supplies which the hon. Gentleman has described."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1946; Vol. 422, c. 1699.]
  That was 1946, when the present Minister of Defence held out the confident hope that the position concerning dirty coal would have been cleaned up inside 12 months. Of course, the fact is that today all grades of coal being sold by the National Coal Board, with the exception of the small minority which are washed—and that applies particularly to the large coal which used to be efficiently handpicked before the war—are badly cleaned.
  There is no question at all about the reason for this, and the National Coal Board themselves know it perfectly well. I do not know whether they have told the right hon. Gentleman; perhaps it is not fair to expect him to know it as he has been in office such a short time. However, they make no bones about admitting it privately to customers who complain. They say that up to now, at all events, they have failed to get the same conscientious care in cleaning the coal and in picking off the dirt as the coal goes over the belt as used to be got before the war.
  Far from improving the position with regard to large coal, I am told that it is being allowed to go from bad to worse. That position is having a bad effect, not only on the domestic consumer in this country, but also on our export trade, about which I shall have a word to say later. Not only does the housewife complain, but the railways complain—the right hon. Gentleman has probably read the evidence given before the Railways Rates Tribunal—and the electricity companies are complaining.
  I was told only last week that, on average, supplies of coal coming by rail and sea to electricity generating stations in London often contain as much as 25 per cent. of stone and dirt compared with a maximum of 14 per cent. before the war. Imagine the waste involved. One truck in every four coming to London for generating stations carries nothing but dirt, and one ship out of every four which we see from the Terrace of this House

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  passing up the Thames contains nothing but dirt. That is a shocking state of affairs, and we should be glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman what effective steps he proposes to take to deal with that matter.
  One member of the Government—I think it was the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, but I am not certain, and I do not wish to do him an injustice—said that, under present conditions, it was up to the merchant to clean the coal. But the merchant never had to do it before the war; he got reasonably clean coal then. Today the merchant is faced with two difficulties. Anyone can look at merchants' yards in many parts of the country today and see the amount of dirt they are picking out from the consignments they receive. But why should this task be inflicted upon the merchants? They have to pay for all that dirt, and cannot recover its value from the National Coal Board.
  I hope that when he replies on that point the right hon. Gentleman is not going to say, "Oh, but there is an established procedure whereby merchants can recover the cost from the National Coal Board in cases where the consignment is unsatisfactory or contains too much dirt." It is perfectly true that a scheme of this kind does exist, but it is not effective, because it only applies to cases where the whole truckload contains an undue proportion of dirt. Think of the position of the merchant who gets one truck of coal delivered to him at a small country station in the winter. Can we seriously contemplate his putting that truck on one side and waiting for three or four days before the representative of the Coal Board can come down to confirm that it is unfit to be sent out to consumers? What is going to happen to all the unfortunate consumers while the merchant is waiting for its replacement? In theory there may be a means of getting compensation from the National Coal Board, but, in fact, except in the very rare cases, it does not work.
  In addition to that, merchants today are compelled to take a proportion of opencast coal to eke out the insufficient supplies of deep-mined coal, and, further, they are forced to take as domestic coal, fuel which before the war would have been classed as industrial. What I would like the right hon. Gentleman to explain
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  is how the unfortunate dealer is to dispose of this low grade coal and at the same time give his customers a fair deal and retain their goodwill. I think the right hon. Gentleman would have difficulty in doing that if he were the unfortunate merchant.
  I should also like him to explain the meaning of the word "allocation," which he and his Parliamentary Secretary are so fond of using. The ordinary consumer thinks that it is a ration to which he is entitled. Not a bit of it; it merely means a maximum which he would be allowed to buy if supplies were available, which, of course, they never are. Neither this summer nor last winter, nor the winter and summer before that, were supplies sufficient to meet the allocations. We only got through these last two winters because they were mild winters. Had either of them been really cold, we should have been faced with a fuel crisis similar to that which overtook the country in 1947.
  Again, I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will not use the stock answer that consumers could have got over the difficulty this winter by stocking up in the summer. Quite apart from the fact that there are a great number of people living in flats, for instance, who cannot stock up in the summer, had everybody bought the amount of coal to which they thought they were entitled, there would not have been sufficient to go round. The only reason why supplies were adequate was because great numbers of people were physically unable to lay in a stock. The fact is, of course, that the output today from the mines, particularly of deep-mined coal, is woefully insufficient to meet all the needs of the country.
  Despite misleading propaganda, after three years of nationalisation the Government of hon. Members opposite, especially those who sit for mining constituencies, have failed to bring home to the industry the real situation which confronts the country, and also the magnitude of the opportunity open to it to make a lasting contribution to our recovery. Miserable targets have been set every year, and unjustified praise has been lavished on the industry by the responsible Ministers. Not only have the Government tried to pull the wool over the eyes of the people of this country concerning the amount of coal produced

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  and their efforts to get adequate supplies to meet our needs, but what is more serious in my view is that they have extended this to their relations with, and it their reports to, O.E.E.C. and E.C.A.
  I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has seen the memorandum submitted to O.E.E.C. for 1950–51–52 on operations under the agreement between ourselves and the United States covering the fourth quarter of 1949, but in case he would like to look at them I will now hand him a couple of copies. Perhaps he would not mind looking at them because I am going to deal with them in detail, and they are almost impossible to follow anyway. The first thing to which I want to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman and of the House is the statement on page 28 that output per man-shift is the best general measure of efficiency. We have heard that story for a very long time but it just does not wash. The effective measure is the output per man-year and not the output per man-shift. If the right hon. Gentleman will turn to the previous page—page 27, paragraph 105—he will find that—
  The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): My copy has only 21 pages.
  Mr. Hudson: Perhaps the Minister will take the copy I gave him, which has the right number of pages. If he will look on page 27 he will see that in the case of all other industries the Memorandum agrees with us by saying that the proper test is output per man-year. It is very odd that when the National Coal Board take the trouble to publish a document called "Coal Figures" it contains every kind of statistics about the industry—wastage of men, exports, percentage of absenteeism and so on—but the one figure the Board do not publish is the output per man-year. Why do they not publish that? It is clearly because that figure would show the hollowness of their pretentions. The output per man-year last year was 281 tons compared with an output pre-war of 304 tons and an output in 1941 of 295 tons. If the right hon. Gentleman had put that figure in it would have put a very different shade on the whole story. The result of not publishing this figure is to conceal the effect of absenteeism upon the total output of the mines.
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  Now I turn to another figure. It this case it is in Command Paper 7890, on page 6. There it makes particular note of the overall increase of 4.7 per cent. per man-shift over 1948. Very peculiarly, when dealing with this the Government do not give the figure of output per man-shift at the face. In order to find that we have to turn to the Economic Survey published yesterday, which shows an increased output per man-shift at the face of 3.4 per cent., which is substantially less than the figure the Government are quoting to the Americans.
  Another interesting figure, which one notices in comparing various industries, is the figure relating to future productivity. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Command Paper 7862 he will see that in paragraph 105 the increase in industrial productivity is expected to exceed 5 to 6 per cent. whereas the increase it) productivity for coal is less than 5 per cent. One has to search these two documents to obtain a comparison before one realises that the increased productivity of coal is very much less than the increased productivity of other industries in the country. This is brought out even more if one looks at the forecast in paragraph 109 of Command Paper 7862. There one will find that an increase of only 5 per cent. in coal production is suggested for the next two years, whereas if one looks at the Economic Survey it will be seen that an increase of productivity of 6 per cent. for one year only is forecast for other industries. So we have, on the Government's own admission, an increase for one year alone for other industries of 6 per cent., whereas for coal there is going to be an increase of only 5 per cent. for two years. That is a pretty fair admission of failure by the Government, and this is concealed by the fact that one has to search through these three separate papers in order to correlate these separate figures.
  The Government state that the output of deep-mined coal in 1949 was 202.7 million tons and that the productive target was reached, but the Sixth Report did not tell the ordinary simple American Congressman and Senator that the target of 202.7 million was the lowest of the published targets for that year. This document did not say that Lord Hyndley himself said, in January, 1949, that the deep-mined target should be between 210 million and 215 million tons—a very

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  different figure from 202.7 million—and it also did not say that in 1947 we told the United States that under the Marshall Plan we anticipated having a production in 1949 of 210 million tons. So far from achieving that target or any decent target, we failed both to achieve the target Lord Hyndley set and the target promised to the Americans under the Marshall Plan. This document did not say a word about that. Nor did it say that under the Marshall Plan, as stated in the Coal Board Report, 1947, Great Britain was committed to produce 210 million tons of deep-mined coal. Neither did it say that the figure of 202.7 million tons included coal of much lower calorific value than pre-war.
  As to the target for 1950, are we going to get the 225 million tons of deep-mined coal promised in the report to O.E.E.C.? It is very noticeable that in the Economic Survey published yesterday the target is given as only 218 million to 223 million tons.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: That is not deep-mined coal, that includes opencast coal.
  Mr. Hudson: If it does, then it makes the position even worse. We are talking about deep-mined coal.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The earlier target was also a target which included opencast.
  Mr. Hudson: If the right hon. Gentleman really wants to get himself bogged down he had better read these three documents together and try and find which figures include opencast and which do not, and which refer to metric tons and which to long tons. That is again evidence of a desire on the part of the Government not to make matters as clear as we think they ought to be.
  It is an interesting speculation to see what could have been produced by the industry. We have had various forecasts and estimates. I remember that Sir Charles Reid estimated that with the then existing number of men it should be possible to reach a target of 230 million tons, and the T.U.C. as well said that 220 million tons would be a fair target.
  I have taken out the figures for the "bull" weeks; I take it that the right hon. Gentleman knows what the "bull" weeks are. They show a very interesting state of affairs. The average weekly production in the "bull" weeks in 1948
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  was just over four million tons. The average throughout the year was only 3.777 million tons. The average weekly production in the "bull" weeks in 1949 was 4.341 million tons as compared with the weekly average for the year of 4.137 million tons. Comparing like with like, including provision for holidays and everything of that kind, if production at the "bull" week rate had been continued throughout the year, last year we should have got an additional 25 million tons of deep-mined coal, and we should in fact have more than achieved the promise we made to the Marshall Aid countries.
  What is most interesting is this. I said that by only giving the output per man-shift figures and not the figures for the output per man-year, the Government have succeeded in obscuring the effect of absenteeism on the year's output. These figures for the "bull" weeks are very suggestive indeed. I will not give the figures for both years—they are approximately the same—in order to avoid giving too many figures. They are these: In 1949 in the week ending 5th November, voluntary absenteeism was 4.8 per cent. These are successive weeks: 5.0, 4.9, 4.7, 4.5, 4.2, and in the week ending 17th December 3.3. That is voluntary absenteeism, showing what can be done. Those figures compare with an average absenteeism figure over the whole year of 12.34.
  Involuntary absenteeism for the same weeks in 1949 were 6.6, 6.6, 6.5, 6.4, 6.2, 5.8, and in the week ending 17th December 5.3. The weeks beginning in December are not normally the weeks in which illness is at its minimum, to say the least; and yet during those "bull" weeks we saw a steady decrease in the rate of absenteeism, not only voluntary absenteeism but, what is more remarkable, involuntary absenteeism. I think we are entitled to conclude from that fact that it is within the capacity of the industry not necessarily to get the extra 25 million tons but to do appreciably better than the 202 million tons. I will leave it at that.
  I have one general observation to make on these two documents. I hope I have shown that they are dishonest. They are certainly calculated to give a dishonest impression of the actual achievements over the year. Not only are they dishonest,

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  but, much worse, they are stupid, because when dealing with the Americans the one thing a person should do is to put his cards on the table and give honest and open facts. I personally have had a great deal to do with negotiations with Americans, and especially with American business men who were temporary civil servants.
  I was at our Embassy in Washington and had to deal with them during the first war. I remember Mr. Vance McCormick, who was Chairman of the National Democratic Committee and was also more or less the corresponding figure to Mr.:Hoffman today. I had to go and see him about a case in which the War Office here were trying to put a "fast one" over the Americans in the matter of wool, and he said to me, "Look here, Hudson. You try and make your people at home understand that if Great Britain is going to deal successfully with the United States there is only one possible way to do it. That is by putting all your cards on the table and being absolutely frank, and not trying to put a fast one over us. If you once try to put fast ones over us, in the long run you will be defeated."
  Nothing could be more stupid than the Government's action in issuing these documents. It does not require any great concentration to check them up and see that they are dishonest or that they present a dishonest picture. It is because of things like that that today Americans on these various bodies, as I am informed, are beginning completely to mistrust the figures which the British Government put forward. It is a shocking state of affairs, and one which I hope will be stopped at once.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): It is not true.
  Mr. Hudson: With regard to exports of coal, I imagine that no one in this House under-estimates the value to this country and indeed to the world of the British export trade in coal—least of all, I hope, the right hon. Gentleman with his long acquaintance with foreign affairs, and equally the Parliamentary Secretary who, in many letters of his, has explained to Members the importance of our exports in order to get the resources with which to pay for necessary
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  imports of food and raw materials into this country. Nevertheless, the story of the post-war years is a pretty sorry one. As far as Europe is concerned, I think it is not unfair to say that the coal-mining industry was the only industry in this country which of itself in the years immediately after the war could make a really notable contribution towards the quick recovery of Europe.
  Think what a difference it would have made during the last five or even two years if this country had had a disposable export surplus of 30 million or even 20 million tons of coal. Every ton of coal would have carried with it a message of good will from Great Britain to the Continent, and would have promoted faith in the future of this country and in our real capacity to help The psychological value of that would have been far greater than the particular effort involved. But the effort was not made by the coal industry, very largely, I believe, because there was no one in the Government or in the industry with the imagination or power to put the true facts over to the workers in the industry.
  It is no use crying over spilt milk now. We have to face the present and the future. Under the Marshall Plan Great Britain was to export in 1949 23 million tons and we exported only 19½ million tons. In 1950 we were to export 33 million tons, and in 1951 we promised to export 41 million tons. Do the Government still think these targets are attainable? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us when he replies. Certainly, judging from the figures on page 23 of the Economic Survey published yesterday, the Government have abandoned all hope and are going to be content with very little more than half the figure which we promised to Marshall Aid.
  Do they anticipate even being able to maintain the figure in the Economic Survey? Do they anticipate being able this year to export 19 million tons? I hope we shall be told by the Minister. Judging by reports that I have seen in the Press, and received from elsewhere, it seems that difficulties are being experienced today in fulfilling contracts that we have already entered into, let alone going out for more to increase the target. Is this so? Perhaps the Minister will tell

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  us. If so, what are the chances of exceeding the figure or getting near to the figure we promised to Marshall Aid?
  It seems from information I have received that the trouble is not only one of output. Now that supplies from other sources are becoming available, old overseas markets of ours are objecting to the steep increase in price which the National Coal Board has forced on them, and, even more important, they are objecting to the deterioration in quality and cleanliness of the supplies that we actually manage to send.
  I am told that the Saar is today producing an exportable surplus, small, it is true, at present but likely to rise. That surplus is certainly proving welcome to former customers of ours because the coal is both cleaner and of better quality and, above all, is cheaper. I am told that the Saar output is being sold for many months ahead. Coal is being sent today from South Africa not only to Pakistan but also to Australia, old markets of ours, and above all to Denmark. The Scandinavian countries are welcoming all these new alternative sources of supplies as providing them with a second string to their bow when they come to negotiate further supplies from us.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Food got into trouble with the Argentine the other day for talking about blackmail, but there is a considerable danger that these foreign consumers of ours will begin to use the same language about the action of the National Coal Board. At the moment, of course, every ton of coal that can be exported can be sold, but that is not a state of affairs which will continue for very long. It will not last for ever or even for very much longer. I am told that if they wanted the Poles could sell coal overseas at prices which would not cover even our British cost of production, let alone any profit, and as their output and means of transport to the seaboard, to the ports, improves, no doubt they will be tempted to do so.
  In their Report for 1948 the National Coal Board talked about the need to cut costs and spoke with pride of the fact that the rising curve of costs was beginning to flatten out. We on these benches say that that is far from being enough.
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  If the export trade is to survive they will have to reduce costs. Let us not only reduce the cost of coal but let us get cleaner coal. Again, the National Coal Board professes privately to customers, who complain, that they have as yet failed to get coal properly cleaned and handpicked. The same situation is true of the export trade as that which I described earlier about domestic coal. Unless the Coal Board succeed in getting cleaner and cheaper coal the foreigner who, unlike the British housewife, has got or will soon have alternative sources of supply, will not continue to buy British and the results to this country, as I am sure hon. Members on all sides of the House appreciate, are bound to be disastrous.
  I hope that in his reply the new Minister will not follow the usual prescription of the speeches we heard in the last Parliament. I hope he will not give a long rehash of pre-war grievances followed by a long account of what excellent work the Labour Party has done for the miners. That sort of speech might have been all right in the past.
  Mr. David Thomas: It is true.
  Mr. Hudson: May be it is true. All I am saying is that we have heard it until we are tired and it does not answer the question. It may have been all right in the first year or the second year, but the House and the country must remember that the National Coal Board have now been in the saddle for three years. In their Annual Report two years ago the Board said that they had
  "already increased wages and made many other improvements for their employees in anticipation of a future increase in productivity."
  They went on to say that the money has been paid but the bulk of the return has yet to come. The right hon. Gentleman will find that on page 121 of their Report.
  In addition, of course, very large sums have already been spent on machinery and other improvements to the pits and the Economic Survey tells us of further substantial sums to be spent under those heads this year. We believe that the returns so far appear to be pretty meagre. Industrialists at home have to put up with coal of inferior calorific value at immensely increased prices, our exports are running at figures well below what we

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  promised the Americans and the housewife is fobbed off with so-called coal in quantity well below pre-war, in quality definitely inferior and at prices multiplied several times.
  Judging by the information in the Economic Survey the returns in 1950 will be but little better and it looks as though the housewife is once again going to find herself at the end of the queue. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why? "] If we have a very small increase of total production amounting to only 5 per cent. over two years, and if we anticipate increased industrial productivity of 6 per cent. in a single year, and if we are to try to get our exports up to anything like the figure which we promised under Marshall Aid, then it is quite clear that there will be much less for the housewife. There will not be enough extra production of coal to take care of the increased demand and, therefore, the poor unfortunate housewife will get it in the neck again. I do not understand why hon. Members opposite seem to dislike the housewife. At any rate, they treat her with contempt. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that officials in Whitehall know how to buy much better than she does and the Noble Lord, speaking on behalf of the Government in another place, said one could not trust housewives to be good statisticians and to know how to spend their money.
  Mr. Robens: They never had any money when the Conservatives were in power.
  Mr. Hudson: There was no complaint about dirty coal in those days. What we expect the Minister to tell us today is what effective steps he proposes to take to see that these returns to which the National Coal Board referred two years ago start to come in. Or is he going to tell us that he will be content in 1950 with production at a rate as set forth in the Economic Survey, well below the rate confidently expected of industries working under private enterprise?
  4.27 p.m.
  The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): The right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) opened his speech by asking rhetorical questions; what are we going to get out of Parliamentary Debates about the
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  nationalised industries; where is the control going to lie; can anything be done by Parliamentary Debate to rectify grievances like that about dirty coal? Dirty coal is a very important subject, and I hope today to say something about it which even the right hon. Gentleman will think constructive. I hope that Parliamentary discussions on the subject may lead to a real result. But before 1946 there were things much worse than dirty coal which were wrong with the coal industry and Parliament had no powers to put them right.
  The right hon. Gentleman accused the Government of giving a dishonest impression about our results. I am not a man to use harsh language, but if I may reply in kind I should say that I thought his speech dishonest from beginning to end. He painted a picture of general failure relieved only by some specific sharp complaints. Of course, in the present situation the right hon. Gentleman wants to forget the past. The Conservative Party always want us to forget the past, especially about coal, but if the right hon. Gentleman wants to judge coal in 1950 he has to remember coal as it was in 1946. Has he really forgotten it? The long decline from 1926; output at 174 million tons; the damning facts and figures of the Reid Report? Over the period from 1927 to 1939 there was an increase in output per man-shift in this country of 11 per cent., in Poland 54 per cent., in the Ruhr 85 per cent., in Holland 118 per cent.; one haulage worker for every 50 tons in the United States, one for every 20 in Holland and one for every five in Britain; thousands of miles of pit railways and haulage systems in utter chaos or in a lamentable condition; most of the collieries uneconomic units; large reserves of good coal sterilised as barriers between private firms; the industry in perpetual financial embarrassment and, in the very temperate words of the Reid Report of 1945:
  "… the men in no mood for willing co-operation with their employers."
  That is the picture which the right hon. Gentleman forgets, and that was why "The Times" said in 1947 that the Government were taking over a "dilapidated estate" which it would take them some time to put right. That was why the President of the Miners' Union said in 1947 that it might be a decade before

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  the industry was prosperous and producing the coal we needed. The immediate outlook, he said, was critical. Of course, things were bad when the Coal Board took over; and, of course, they were getting worse. The right hon. Gentleman will not dispute the authority of Lord McGowan, the chairman of I.C.I.—
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: The old story.
  Mr. Noel Baker: —who, late in 1948, said that if the Conservative Party had been elected at the General Election of 1945, and coal had not been nationalised.
  "I believe,"
  he said,
  "we should have been getting a million tons less per week than we are at present."
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: Quite true.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: A million tons a week; 52 million tons a year. What would have happened to British recovery if he had been right? It is against the background of those facts that the policy of nationalisation, the work of the Coal Board, and the present situation must be judged. I know as well as anyone that we are by no means past the difficulties that we have to face. Nobody in my Ministry would claim that everything that has been done has been right. I will examine all the questions raised by the right hon. Gentleman or by any hon. Member on their merits, but I shall examine them, as he should, with the historical background in mind. That background is particularly important in connection with his first complaint—about dirty coal. I know there is more dirt in the coal today than there was before the war. I know it is a genuine grievance among the women in the homes. I know the irritation and the trouble it causes. But why is dirt in coal a greater problem than it used to be? There are two basic reasons. The first is that for some time before the industry was nationalised the good seams were being exhausted. Thinner—and dirtier—seams were being used. The Coal Board had to go on working those thinner and dirtier seams. They had no option. We had to have the coal. More dirt came out.
  In the second place, the owners—the private owners—had put in machinery for
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  cutting coal but fell behind in providing the machinery for washing and cleaning which was indispensably required. Cutting machines, power loaders, of course send up more dirt, and the picking belt is a very costly way of cleaning; it is extravagant in manpower. Mechanical plant for cleaning and washing is required. But in 1946, while 74 per cent. of the output of coal was being cut mechanically, only 47½ per cent. was being washed mechanically. These facts explain the very great difficulty which the Coal Board had to face.
  People sometimes talk as though there was never any dirty coal before the industry was nationalised. It was never so bad as in 1945 and 1946. People talk—the right hon. Gentleman talked—as though the Coal Board sent on the coal without trying to take out the dirt. Let us consider these figures. In 1938, 234 million tons were extracted from the mines, raised and weighed; 7 million tons of dirt were taken out. In 1949, 220 million tons were taken from the mines, raised and weighed—14 million tons less—but 18.3 million tons of dirt were taken out; instead of 7 million, 18.3 million.
  That is because the Board have made a genuine effort. They have started up plants which were idle. They have extended and repaired others that had broken down. They have improved the lighting of the picking belts. They have brought a lot of new washeries into operation—38 since vesting day—of a much higher capacity, and 61 are on order and under construction now. One of them cleans 800 tons an hour as against the average of 80 tons of the pre-war plants. These new plants will clean 18 million or 19 million tons a year. Other measures taken by the Board with the existing plants have cleaned 8 million more. The Board have made a genuine effort—
  Mr. Peter Roberts: Could the right hon. Gentleman give us the figures of the dirt extracted? It would be interesting to know where he has got the figures from. I mean, at what point were the weights taken?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: It is the stuff that comes up from the mines and is washed and weighed before it goes out.
  Mr. Roberts: From the pit?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes. The Board have made a genuine effort. They have increased the percentage of coal which is washed from 45.8 in 1944 to 51 today. When they reach 70 per cent. of mechanically cleaned, they will have done the job—or very nearly. Either the rest will be cleaned by hand, or some of it can be used without cleaning But, of course, they will need time to get to 70 per cent.
  As I said at Question Time the other day—and I repeat it now—I am not satisfied with the situation as it is today. I have, therefore, taken the matter up with the Coal Board, as I said I would. I have asked them to regard it as urgent and important. The Board have agreed to do everything they can to ensure that the quality of large coal shall be immediately improved. They have given instructions to every division that there shall be a redoubled drive at the pits for cleaner filling, better lighting and better manning of the picking belts, and better supervision of the picking. They have decided to meet representatives of the coal distributive trade, as they did two years ago, in order to discuss with them the classes of coal about which merchants get complaints, and they hope, and I hope, that they will get some effective action from that meeting.
  I am going to take the matter up with the merchants myself. The right hon. Gentleman said that the merchants never did anything about cleaning before nationalisation. Of course, they did. They did a very great deal before the war. They shared the responsibility for getting clean coal to the customers who wanted it, and I hope that some way can be devised—I know the difficulties of the merchants—but I hope some way can be devised by which that healthy principle can be restored.
  I hope that the Coal Board will make the fullest possible use of the colliery consultative committees in this redoubled drive which they are starting. Everybody in the whole industry should give his help in a great, concerted effort to restore the industry's good name, because it is by clean household coal that the industry will inevitably be judged by the public at large.
  The right hon. Gentleman raised another point in connection with household coal—the point of cost.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he has not replied to either of the points I made about dirty coal; first, that the amount of coal cleaned was much greater before the war than it is now, and second,. the confession of the National Coal Board, that they had failed to get the men to do as conscientious a job in the cleaning and picking of coal as they had done before.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: No, Sir. I have explained that the difficulties are now far greater, and that they are, in fact, taking, out a far greater quantity of dirt than was taken out before the war; and I said they are making a start with a new drive to increase the amount of dirt taken out to clean up the coal. The right hon. Gentleman pays no attention whatever, to the arguments I have put to him about the great difficulties with which the Board were faced in 1947.
  The second point which he raised about household coal was that of opencast, know that many of the merchants dislike the opencast which they receive. In fact, the proportion of opencast that they get is only 5 per cent. overall of their total supplies. It varies in quality; some of it is good, some less good; but we take great trouble to ensure that it shall be, delivered clean. In the contract made with those who dig it, we only pay for clean coal. We have special Ministry supervisors to ensure that the dirt is kept out. I am going into that matter again, and I shall be glad to consider any suggestions which any hon. Member of any party cares to put forward.
  Hon. Members who follow in the Debate will, no doubt, ask the question:, Why use any opencast coal for household, use at all? For the same reason, that we cannot give the household user the quantity he wants. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that we had disguised that fact. We have never disguised it. It is on every circular that deals with the matter. We cannot give the householder the quantity he wants; we have to export coal; and we have to, export the kind of coal the foreigner wants. The right hon. Gentleman urged that we should think of that as one of the highest priorities. We have to export coal just as we have to export pottery and motor cars, although people in this country would like to buy them. We could sell more exports now.

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  I would like to reassure the right hon. Gentleman about the long-term prospect. If things develop as they are, he need not be alarmed about our long-term markets. I would, in answer to him, say again that I am going to take up the question of the quantity of household coal which merchants receive for their clients. I am not at all satisfied, and I am not certain that I can get more. We cannot cut the exports in any significant way. Last year, exports earned for us £50 million, most of it in valuable foreign exchange, and £7½ million in dollars and hard currency, apart from freights and insurance on the cargoes. Of course, as the right hon. Gentleman said, we are under an obligation to export. I ask the House to remember one other thing: the total home demand for coal has increased by 17 million tons since 1938, for industrial purposes, power stations and the rest. If there had not been that great increase in industrial demand, we should have been able to give the householders what they want. But I am going to see if something can be done about that.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: The right hon. Gentleman said that he would inquire into the amount of coal available to householders. Will he be so good as to look also into the question of the distribution of what is available? I have received complaints that people in East Fife are not getting anything like a fair allocation compared with others.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I have already looked into a good many complaints of that kind, and I shall be glad to look into the hon. Gentleman's complaint.
  I now turn to what the right hon. Gentleman said about absenteeism and manpower. It is true that the numbers of workers overall are somewhat down. Many men who came into the industry and who were really quite unsuited to the mines have been dismissed and have gone to other work. When the ring fence was removed, some miners left; but some ex-miners are coming back. The overall numbers are somewhat down, but it is not the overall shortage that is the major problem.
  The major problem is the shortage of skilled manpower in some areas and the surplus in others. There is a shortage in the new rich coalfield of Fife; a surplus in the old, exhausted, or nearly exhausted,
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  coalfield of Lanark. There may be a surplus of manpower—splendid skilled miners, the finest in the world—in parts of Durham, Northumberland and elsewhere. The problem is to encourage these skilled miners to move to where the nation needs them most. Transfer is a very complex social operation; it involves difficulties of every kind. Housing is one of them, but there are many other human difficulties as well. One large-scale transfer has in fact been carried through. Five thousand miners and their families have moved from Lanark to the newer coalfields of Scotland. More transfers may be required, and if they could be made today we should get more coal.
  I must add that the whole manpower problem is in fact being changed by the new machines. In the last two years, experiments have been made with the Gloster getter, the Sampson stripper and the so-called "plough," and the experiments promise very well. The potential saving of manpower that these new machines may give is very great.
  As the underground haulage system is improved—and it is being improved—as screening and washing plant is improved, so we shall get more coal with fewer men; but there is the problem, with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt at length, of absenteeism. I am going to be very frank. I begin by saying that there is a great deal of unfair talk against the miners. People forget that in some coalfields before the war mining was a semi-casual employment, and they forget that in almost all the coalfields miners had long periods of under-employment, a few shifts a week, or total unemployment for years on end. It is very hard for men who have suffered in that way to settle down to a regular, every-day, all-round-the-year attendance.
  I do not admit of any comparison between the rate of total absenteeism before the war and the total rate today. Before the war, miners who were sick or slightly injured often went back to work before they were well enough to do so, because they had to have the money. Today, with better wages and adequate Health Insurance, they do not do that. And I do not admit of any comparison between miners and workers in other industries.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: I never said anything about it.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: But people do, and I want to speak about absenteeism in general.
  Mr. Hudson: I said nothing about prewar absenteeism. The comparison I made was involuntary and voluntary absenteeism in "bull" week with the average for the year. I know the difficulty of a comparison with pre-war and I deliberately did not mention it.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Other hon. Members have done so in earlier Debates, and it is very frequently done outside this House. In dealing with absenteeism, I think it right to answer that point. I do not admit of any comparison between the rate before the war and the rate now. I do not admit of any comparison between the miners and workers in other trades. We do not know the degree of absenteeism in other trades. In the last Parliament, there was perhaps a good deal of absenteeism even among hon. Members.
  Having said that, I do not disguise that the present rate of absenteeism is disappointing. There are many reasons, good and bad, why a particular man does not go to work on a particular day; but the fact remains that more absenteeism means less output. If we had more output we could satisfy, or nearly satisfy, the householder consumer, and we should make absolutely sure of our long-term foreign markets, which, if they were lost, might be very difficult to get back again. I hope that the miners will remember that regular attendance now, however great the change in their habits, may help to safeguard full employment in the future for themselves and their comrades in other trades. I hope that they will remember the central, crucial fact of which their own leaders have often spoken, that if absenteeism could be reduced by one per cent., it would mean two million tons more coal a year.
  I believe that more and more miners, with the better conditions they now enjoy will form the habit of regular attendance at their work. But the key to that will lie, in my firm conviction, in the longterm improvement in labour relations. There is still a good deal to do in improving labour relations in the coal industry. The work of generations cannot be undone in the twinkling of an eye; but by
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  their new wage agreements, their colliery consultative committees, their pithead baths, canteens, health services, training schemes, educational work and their "ladder" plan, the Board have made a start.
  The real test of labour relations is the number of man-days lost in trade disputes. The right hon. Gentleman has not raised the matter today. He did so in the last Debate, and he did not like it at all when my hon. Friend compared the last three years after the Second World War with the three years after the First World War: 1919–21, 97 million man-days lost; 1946–48, 1.7 million man-days lost. The right hon. Gentleman said that was not fair; that it was going back too far, and so on. Let me give him, if I may, a comparison which I think is fair, and which I believe he will agree is fair. The average number of days lost per year for 20 years under private enterprise between the wars was over 13 million; the average number of days lost for three years of nationalisation, with all the strains and stresses of a new system, has been 710,000. If the right hon. Gentleman still has any doubts about labour relations, or about the feeling of the miners towards the new set-up, perhaps he will consider the results of the General Election in the mining areas.
  Now I turn to output per man-shift, output per man-year, and costs—what the right hon. Gentleman might perhaps call the business results of nationalisation. He does not like us to talk about output per man-shift; he prefers output per man-year. Well, in fact, output per man-shift has always been regarded as the test of business efficiency in the mines, of good management and of the real effort which industry is making. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members will find it all over the Reid Report. There they will never find a single mention of output per man-year I shall deal with both—
  Colonel Clarke: If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the First Report of the Committee on Industrial Productivity, on page nine, under "Definition of Productivity," he will find this:
  "In the present circumstances it is desirable not only to accelerate improvements in output per man-hour, but also to secure that they are fully reflected in an increase in output per man-year. We have used the term 'productivity' in this latter sense."
  Mr. Noel-Baker: That does not at all invalidate what I say. I shall talk about both, but if I may, I will start with output per man-shift. As I have said already, the Reid Report showed that over a period 12 years before the war we had increased only 11 per cent., while others had done much more. The figures for recent years are as follows: 1945, 1.00 tons; 1949, 1.15 tons; 1950, the first 10 weeks, 1.20 tons—a steady unbroken curve of increase amounting to 20 per cent. In 1938 the corresponding figure was 1.14 tons. So that already, as compared with pre-war days we have an improvement of nearly 6 per cent., and, as I said, the curve continues to go up. "But," says the right hon. Gentleman, "you really must look at output per man-year." He said that we were trying to hide the figures. Well, he will find them if he looks at the Statistical Digest, in Table 3; it is all there, in output per man-years.
  Of course, when one is short of coal, output per man-year is extremely important. I do not deny it. But consider the figures of output per man-year in recent times, remembering the background with which I started. In 1938—that is the representative year we always take—output per man-year was 290 tons; 1945, 246 tons; 1947, 263 tons; 1948, 273 tons; and in 1949, 283 tons—nearly 40 tons increase since 1945; over 16 per cent. in four years, in spite of the immense difficulties with which the Board were faced; 10 tons a year increase for each of the last two years. I venture no firm prediction, but I shall be very much surprised if the man-year tonnage for 1950 does not beat that for 1938; and 1950 will be only the fourth year of nationalisation; and the process of nationalised recovery started from a very low point, as I have shown.
  Sir Herbert Williams: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be able to speak later, and my hon. Friend will reply to him.
  The right hon. Gentleman spoke about costs. It is true, of course, that costs have gone up since vesting date. The figures are very familiar: 8s. 6½d. of which by far the greater part was for better wages for the miners. The right
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  hon. Gentleman will not have forgotten the figure my hon. Friend gave him in the last Debate—namely, that between 1938 and 1946 costs have gone up, not by 8s. 6½d. but by 19s. 9d Let me consider this business from another angle. The Board of Trade publishes the index figures of wholesale prices for various commodities and industries. Between 1938 and 1946 the index for the wholesale price of coal rose by 98 per cent. That was more than any of the other main commodity groups, except cotton alone. Since 1946, under nationalisation the wholesale price index for coal has risen by only 25 per cent., which compares favourably with the average increase of all groups of 37 per cent.
  I think I have dealt with most of the specific points which the right hon. Gentleman made. His main contention, of course, the thing that he really wants the House and the country to believe, is that nationalisation has been a failure; that the mines today are doing less well than they used to do under private enterprise, or than they would have done if private enterprise had been left in charge. Unless his speech meant that, it meant nothing.
  We have always believed that nationalisation had certain inherent advantages—advantages which would help us to carry out the recommendations of the Reid Report and remove the grave defects which it revealed. We believed that with nationalisation we should get a new degree, and in due course a new kind, of co-operation from the men; we believed that for the first time in many years the industry would have adequate finance, adequate capital resources; we believed that the "parcelisation" of the industry would be ended if it were organised in economic units; we believed that the knowledge and experience of the best engineers and scientists could be spread over a much wider territory; that the field for experiment would be widened, that research would be extended, that new knowledge would be pooled, and that the standardisation of plant and equipment would increase its efficiency and reduce its costs.
  Well, all those advantages are proving in practice to be real. But all of them, without exception, must take time to show their full results. Who seriously

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  believes that under any system the industry could properly have recovered in three years from the condition in which it was in 1946? Yet in three years—
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: We were told it would take 12 months.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: It was much better in 12 months. As I was saying, in three years we have got real results. My predecessor in my present office made an admirable survey of the position in November last. I sum it up as follows. There is a new spirit among the men—much to do, but a genuine change of feeling has taken place. Mining has become one of the best-paid instead of one of the worst-paid employments in the country. Earnings now bear some relation to the toil and risk involved. Output has gone up from 174 million tons, in 1945, to 202 million tons, in 1949—a steady 3 per cent. increase per annum since vesting date, higher I believe than could be shown in the industry before. The export targets have been attained. The miners have helped to close our trading gap. Mistakes have been made—of course they have—and where defects or rigidities have appeared some, at least, have been corrected. The organisation has been changed already, and it will be changed again if experience shows that it is needed.
  I shall listen gladly to any Member of any party who makes proposals about how things can be improved. This is the greatest experiment in the industrial history of our land. For two centuries British power and British progress have been built on coal. Britain's greatness, Britain's reconstruction and Britain's leadership for peace and freedom today depend on coal. For far too long Britain's miners have been harshly treated by the nation whom they serve. Today, they have a brighter future. We are resolved that with their help this venture shall succeed.
  5.2 p.m.
  Mr. Raikes: I am glad to follow the right hon. Gentleman who has made his first speech in his new office. We shall be in agreement on this if not on much else, and that is in offering our best wishes, to the right hon. Gentleman in the task he has taken on. One
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  thing is certain, and that is that vigour is needed if the coal industry is to recover and get back to the production and export figures of pre-war years. Having said that, I am now going to advance into the realms of controversy. I shall confine myself almost entirely to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, instead of making the sort of set speech to which we have become all too familiar in this House.
  I detected a note of complacency in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. He looked back to the past—and I shall say a word or two about the past—and told us that we are really doing awfully well although a good deal remains to be done. I want to check up with the right hon. Gentleman on whether we are doing as well as he has indicated, and to take up certain suggestions that may be made later in the Debate. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is new to his post. To descend from Commonwealth Relations to the Ministry of Fuel and Power means taking on something completely different. There is not much in common between Seretse Khama and the Coal industry except that both are black. Apart from that, of course, Seretse is the more inflammable material from what I have seen recently of modern coal.
  The right hon. Gentleman emphasised the point that he made during Questions last Monday week, that the Coal Board inherited a terrible problem. He referred to the terrible state of the industry, to a lack of washing facilities and to good seams being exhausted. I do not know whether it occurred to Members opposite, but it certainly occurred to us, that if conditions were so deplorable before the Coal Board took over, how was it that the Government were so optimistic three years ago when they laid down their Marshall Aid Programme for coal for the next three years.
  When my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) referred to the Marshall Aid Programme, the Minister showed that he was somewhat new to his job by saying incorrectly that the figures given by my right hon. Friend applied both to opencast and deep-mined coal. This is what the Government imagined they could do when they took over the coal industry, with this terrible picture of the past in their minds. For 1948, they estimated, under the

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  Marshall Aid programme, 200 million tons of deep-mined coal and 11 million tons of opencast coal. They were not so much down that year, because, as Members will recollect, the figures were 196,500,000 tons of deep-mined coal and 11.7 million tons of opencast coal. Since then, however, the gap has widened every year.
  The estimate for 1949 was 210 million tons of deep-mined coal, and the performance was 202.6 million tons. For 1950 it was 220 million tons of deep-mined coal, and the National Coal Board expect to reach only between 205 million tons and 210 million tons. Finally, for 1951 it was 230 million tons of deep-mined coal. At the present rate of advance, we shall be lucky to get somewhere near 208 million tons by 1951. Why are we falling so far short of what the Government expected when they took over? It is no good talking about the mines being worked out and about the old days. They knew what the position was, and they made their forecast; but since then they have fallen back and back.
  The Minister seemed very anxious to talk about the production in 1945 and 1946. It is the case that in every other Statistical Digest issued by the Government production is compared with 10 years ago rather than with three or four yeas ago. They do not like comparing production in 1948 or 1949 with production in 1938 or 1939 when private enterprise was actively working without outside control. It is much better to take the figures at the end of the war when many men had left the pits for the Army, when the Government had had financial control for four or five years and everyone was tired—they make lovely figures.
  Let us go back for a moment to those terrible days to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. He indicated that we managed to meet our coal commitments only because of mass employment. What was the position? Let us take 1939. In 1939 we produced 231 million tons of more or less clean deep-mined coal. If I recollect correctly, in 1939 we actually provided as much deep-mined coal for industry and for the domestic consumer as the right hon. Gentleman has allocated for 1949. In fact, it was half a million tons more. During that period there was the full blast of foreign
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  competition, which the right hon. Gentleman has not yet met, but in those days we were exporting no 19 million tons of coal abroad as now but over 40 million tons.
  If things were deplorable in 1939—and there were many things which large numbers on both sides of the House did not approve—today 10 years later from the point of view of the consumer, industrial or domestic, and also of export, the position is not deplorable; it is disgraceful. We are producing 202½ million tons of coal and that is far less in reality since much of it is unburnable slate.
  Mr. Robens: There are 9 per cent. fewer men in the industry than in 1939.
  Mr. Raikes: I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary has interrupted me. He says that there are somewhere about 9 per cent. fewer men in the industry today than in 1939, but it must be remembered there is 16 per cent. more machinery than in 1939. We have heard a lot about the Reid Report today, and Sir Charles Reid has told us that the increased amount of machinery plus the present number of men in the pits ought to give us 230 million tons of deep mined coal in the year.
  Mr. Robens: When the necessary technical developments in the pits have been carried out, but these will take time.
  Mr. Raikes: As the Parliamentary Secretary knows quite well, Sir Charles Reid is a far greater mining engineer than either the Parliamentary Secretary or myself. He made that statement on the assumption that under the conditions of 1948 it should be possible, if the Coal Board were working efficiently, to reach that target. That is what Sir Charles has said, and, though the Parliamentary Secretary may possibly know better what he means, I prefer to rely on the spoken word.
  The quality of coal has deteriorated a great deal during the last 10 years. Reasons for it have been given this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman. He has referred to the question of the lack of washing facilities. I understand that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Fylde, South (Colonel Lancaster) will be speaking in this Debate later on. He is a greater expert on coal-washing facilities than the right hon. Gentleman or

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  myself, but I should like to ask one question in regard to the wet and dry cleaning plants, which perhaps may be answered later in the Debate—what are the number of wet and dry cleaning plants at present in the coal industry under the Coal Board? The figure in 1947 was 548 pits had wet and dry cleaning plants, but no figures have been given since then.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I believe that the figure is 685, including 38 which the Coal Board have constructed since vesting date.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: Is there any reason why we should have been deprived of these figures and should have to extract them like teeth from a jaw? Why should they not be published? The last figure published was for 1947, and we are now in 1950.
  Mr. Raikes: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman as his answer assists us to realise one thing, which was a little obscure. We have heard a great deal about the lack of washing and cleaning facilities provided under private ownership when nationalisation took over. However, it is interesting to know that we have now more pits fitted with wet and dry cleaning plants than there were in 1938, which is an additional reason for being a little puzzled why the coal is as dirty as, in fact, it is.
  There has been talk about over mechanisation. There is some point, of course, in mechanisation making it more difficult to separate the coal as it is cut, but as my right hon. Friend pointed out in his admirable speech, in 1938 there were somewhere about 136 million tons of coal cut by mechanical means in the pits. It was an admirable speech by my right hon. Friend, and it is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to call it dishonest. If the right hon. Gentleman is as adequate in his Department, as my right hon. Friend was honest in his speech he will make a great success of his job—greater than I expect.
  As I have already said, in 1938 about 136 million tons of coal were cut in the pits by mechanical means. Today the figure is about 147 million tons. That ratio of 147 to 136 in no way accounts for what, in fact, has happened in regard to coal. I like to be specific, and I jotted down some figures that were given to me two or three days ago by an official of
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  the Liverpool Corporation Public Baths Department in regard to the use and quality of coal used now for the baths as compared with pre-war. I would commend these figures to the House because I did not know at first what they were. I was startled by them. I received them from the manager of the public baths in Liverpool, and he is no politician and there are no politics in it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Why should not an official in a public Department give information which may be of value to the House whatever his political complexion may be, and may that always continue.
  The figures are worth presenting. Prewar the calorific value of the coal which was used in the public baths of Liverpool was roughly 12,500 to 13,000 British thermal units per lb. I am not going into the price, because I do not want to make a point which may appear to be political. All I want to do is deal with this point—at the present time the calorific value is 10,000 British thermal units per lb.—a very big decline. It means of every 100 tons being used at the present time, about 25 to 30 tons are either an unburnable substance which is deposited into the boilers or else merely ash. It really means that if the Liverpool Baths were getting coal of pre-war quality, instead of the 212 tons a week which they are using now they would only require 162 tons. That would be a saving not only to the Coal Board but at present prices of somewhere about £150 to the ratepayers.
  I am only quoting that example because it is so easy to talk vaguely over differences in regard to the industrial use of coal, but here are precise figures of the difference between now and pre-war. If that state of affairs prevails in other parts of the country, it makes absolute nonsense of the figure of 202½ million tons of deep-mined coal produced by the Coal Board because that total must include that sort of unburnable slate.
  I urge the right hon. Gentleman not to be complacent. We have not only to increase production but to raise the quality of coal. If we do not do that, we shall endanger—we have already endangered—the export markets that we held before the war. I doubt whether we shall get them back at all, certainly not unless we produce more coal and get our coal clean

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  to the degree and to the extent that it was clean in the so-called bad days of 10 years ago. On this side of the House we are anxious to concentrate upon matters which are of vital importance. We know that this industry has been nationalised and we want to make it work. After all, the great industries of the country are more dependent upon coal which is the raw material of industry, than upon anything else. If we drift along as we have been drifting during the past two years, with bad coal and short coal, and high prices, our failure is going to cripple every heavy industry in the land.
  5.21 p.m.
  Mr. P. Bartley: In this, my first, speech in this House, may I claim the indulgence of hon. Members and also thank Members for the courtesy and kindness which they have shown to me, and which have been a great encouragement, during the four weeks that I have been a Member of this House? I choose to speak on this subject of dirty coal because, like most other hon. Members, I am concerned with sustaining the success of nationalisation in the coal mining industry. I appreciate very much indeed the success which has been achieved in the industry and I realise that sustained successes will depend very much upon the extent to which the industry can supply coal, not only at a just price, but also of a quality required by the customers.
  I also speak as one of those Members, at least on this side of the House, who have not only had experience in the digging and getting of the coal about which we complain from time to time but also held an official position at the divisional level in recent years, both during the war, when the industry was controlled by the Ministry of Fuel and Power and in the last three years, under nationalisation of the industry when more successful control and management have been the result.
  The question of dirty coal—I do not intend to be provocative, as I appreciate the indulgence extended to me by right hon. and hon. Members—is not a new one. It has worried the mining community, particularly in connection with free and concessionary coal, for many years. As a miners' trade union official and as a workman receiving that coal I have regularly complained, like many others in the mining community during
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  those years, about the quality of the coal which was being supplied to myself and to my fellow workmen. We have been concerned about the inferior quality of coal for a number of years. In addition to the inconvenience we suffered in the burning of such coal, we had to suffer the fines and other deductions from wages inflicted upon the men who were held to be responsible for filling such bad quality of coal. Therefore, this is no new question. It did not begin with nationalisation or with the Labour Government. It has concerned us all for a number of years.
  The question has naturally been given much more prominence in recent years. We are equally, if not more, concerned about tackling the problem of dirty coal than are many right hon. and hon. Members on the opposite side of the House. Our livelihood, our very lives and the lives of members of our families, have been invested in the industry for many years. We are very much concerned and very anxious that this problem should be tackled by the responsible persons as effectively and as quickly as possible.
  In recent years there has been reduced manpower. Let us not underestimate the effect of the reduction of manpower. My right hon. Friend has compared output now with output in 1938. As he says, we have lost not 50,000 men but nearly 80,000 men since that time. Even by the use of machinery we cannot make up for that loss of manpower and output. Reduced manpower has meant reduced output, and that has lead to a much lower degree of selectivity in the quality and grade of coal which can be chosen. In recent years, and before nationalisation, there has been a big demand for coal, coupled with a reduced supply, and, therefore, inferior qualities have had to be provided and put upon the market to meet the demand.
  The National Coal Board and the Government, being particularly concerned with the success of nationalisation, are anxious to find a solution to the problem of dirty coal. If the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) had read more fully the report of the National Coal Board for 1947 I think he would not have stated that the Board talked of less conscientious care being taken by people in the industry in connection with the cleaning of coal. That report

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  enumerated quite a number of causes for the inferior quality of coal, and it is not fair to allege that the Board are content to say that less conscientious care has been taken in the cleaning of coal. The Board enumerated the causes at that time and gave figures showing the reasons. They went on to show the efforts that had been made to deal with this very aggravating question of dirty coal.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Southport was inclined to treat rather lightly the fact that the industry is working thinner seams than 20 years ago, but hon. Gentlemen may be interested to know that over the last 20 years—which is not a long period in the life of an industry—the proportion of the total output produced from seams five feet or over was reduced from 27 per cent. to 20 per cent. Those of us who have been in the mining industry and have had experience of different pits can see that that tendency will continue in modern coal mining. Probably, deterioration as a result of thinner seams—such seams are naturally generally dirtier—can be counteracted by scientific research, alteration of the design of machinery for cutting and loading underground and general changes in mining methods, but all these methods are matters of long-term policy and cannot be put into operation in a matter of three, four or five years. It will take much longer to instal machinery and change methods in order to reap the results of scientific research and eventually achieve a better quality and cleaner type of coal.
  It is claimed that if there is difficulty in cleaning coal underground, it ought to be cleaned on the surface. That may be done by degrees, for cleaning plant cannot be installed immediately. My right hon. Friend has indicated the extent to which the National Coal Board has been increasing the number of cleaning plants at the collieries. There are still many collieries experiencing difficulty in cleaning coal due to the increased amount of dirt in the coal. The report of the National Coal Board for its first year showed that the Board had to re-open cleaning plants which were idle at some collieries. Others which were working below full capacity were brought into full capacity by being linked with neighbour-
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  ing collieries from which coal was brought for cleaning to this centralised cleaning plant.
  My right hon. Friend mentioned, in a general way, the rate at which the installation of mechanical cleaning plant has lagged behind the installation of mechanical cutters and power loaders underground. Let us again take a period of 20 years. For the 20 years almost immediately before nationalisation machinery increased in advance of mechanical cleaners. The quantity of mechanically cut coal increased from 31 per cent. to 74 per cent. and mechanically conveyed coal from 17 per cent. to 73 per cent., whereas the rate of the increased installation of mechanical cleaning plant was only from 30 per cent. to 47 per cent. It was, therefore, substantially behind, and everyone agrees that mechanically cut and filled coal is naturally dirtier and more difficult to deal with than hand-hewn and handfilled coal. Also, in recent years prominence has been given to the problem because of the increase in the selling price of coal. It is natural to expect better quality coal if a higher price is paid.
  One does not wish to under-estimate the urgent necessity of dealing with this problem, not only for the sake of the home market but also for the sake of foreign markets which are becoming more and more important to the sustained success of the industry. The National Coal Board, the Government and many hon. Members on this side of the House are concerned about the matter. Much has been done during the three years of nationalisation to bring idle plant into operation and all plant into full capacity. Surveys have been taken of coal cleaning plant. Standard designs for cleaning plant have been considered, but that does not overcome the problem because some pits have difficulties peculiar to themselves which standardisation would not solve.
  The efforts made during the last three years to deal with this problem have met with some success. Much useful information can be obtained from the report which is now issued not only to the Government but also to the public by the nationalised industry year by year. That report shows that as a result of an increased number of mechanical cleaning

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  plants the proportion of larger coal has been increased from 62 to 66 per cent. At the other end of the scale the proportion of uncleaned or untreated "smalls" has been reduced from 16½ per cent. to 14½ per cent. of the total output.
  The problem cannot be tackled as a short-term matter; it requires long-term policy. It can be tackled. If we follow some of the suggestions of the Opposition there will not only be greatly increased cost to the industry because of our having to deal with an inadequate number of mechanical cleaning plants to deal with the increased amount of dirty coal, but there will also be a considerable loss of output which the country and the world cannot afford at present. There must be a long-term policy. I emphasise that we are as much concerned with this question as any right hon. or hon. Member opposite. As one of the public I have been buying coal for the last seven or eight years. At times I have had to complain, but I am satisfied that taking this as part of the situation which has developed in recent years in the industry, the public would much prefer to have this one thing to complain about than the many complaints and grievances of pre-nationalisation days.
  As I have said, I do not wish to be provocative in this speech, but I cannot help thinking that the subject under discussion is not the purpose of the Debate. In this case the purpose has been more to discredit the nationalisation of the industry than to deal with this problem. Having had some little experience of the industry, not only as a workman, but from a higher level, I am certain that no matter from what aspect we judge the industry—whether from the point of view of output, of profits, of the standard of wages, the conditions of employment, the increased welfare facilities, the increased training facilities, the increased standards of safety compared with pre-war days—we are bound to conclude that this industry under nationalisation is showing success compared with the days of bankruptcy—financial, human, moral, and soon.
  One thing I am sure my hon. Friends on this side of the House appreciate, the standard of human dignity now enjoyed in the industry compared with pre-nationalisation days. There is a standard of respect and human relations are much better now
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  than ever before. As one who represents a mining constituency in the midst of other mining constituencies, I suggest that the attitude of the electorate during the weeks of the election campaign, when most of us increased our majorities, was because of the dignity now enjoyed by the people in the industry, including the officials, compared with pre-war years. There is freedom and an appreciation of the higher standards of security and dignity now enjoyed, and people know that it is the result of nationalisation.
  There is no lack of care and conscientiousness in the industry among the miners and the trade unions, as has been suggested. In respect of the problem of dirty coal in Durham County and other parts of the Northern Division, during the time I was holding an official position for that Division we had weekend meetings of workmen and managements and area trade unions, at which this question was discussed. They were, and are, concerned with trying to find means of improving the quality of the coal because they realise that our standard of living now depends on the success of the nationalised mining industry. We should bear that in mind and pay some tribute to the earnest endeavours that the industry is making to deal with the problem in our pits.
  I hope the House will not make use of this Debate to indicate despair as to the success of the nationalised coal mining industry. As I have said, seeing it from within, and knowing the reactions and the relationships which exist now compared with pre-nationalisation and pre-war years, this industry is becoming a success and this question, along with many others, is being dealt with earnestly and conscientiously by the responsible people in the industry.
  5.46 p.m.
  Colonel Lancaster: It is my pleasure to congratulate the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Bartley). He succeeds a right hon. Member who for many years had the affection and esteem of hon. Members of all sides of this House, and I can say quite fairly that the hon. Member himself made a reasoned and sensible speech. He did something which always attracts the attention of the House—he spoke with experience on a complicated subject and showed that over a number of years he

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  had paid great attention to the details of this great industry. As my right hon. Friend rightly said, these Debates tend to become more remote as the years go on. Hon. Members who may have played some part in management now have little or no practical contact with the industry, and hon. Members on the Labour benches who in their various capacities were connected with this industry, of necessity now in great measure speak second-hand.
  I am sorry that the Minister is not in his place. I can only say that we listened this afternoon to a speech, not unnaturally prepared for him by his Department, and that he launched forth on a series of generalities which really do not bear looking into closely. We do not condemn him at this early stage on that score, but in the course of a short speech I shall make an attempt to point out, if not to the Minister, to his Parliamentary Secretary, where the right hon. Gentleman fell in error in regard to clean coal. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary when he winds up to resist, if he can, telling me that I know nothing about this subject. I was for a great many years a member of the Coal Utilisation Council and I assure him that I do know something about it.
  The matter of clean or unclean coal has caused, not only in this House but up and down the country, a great deal of confusion. All sorts of reasons have been given why coal is dirty, and most people are getting rather confused about both the cause and the remedy. As an example of that, I saw an article in the "Evening News" on 14th March which I commend to the Parliamentary Secretary. I read it and rang up the newspaper on the following morning and asked, "Where on earth did your correspondent get his facts and figures?" I was told, "Oh, he went down to Kent and was accompanied by a member of the National Coal Board." I assure the Parliamentary Secretary that, when he comes to read that article, he will find practically every fact incorrect and, as a result, every conclusion incorrect as well. And we have listened today to a good many facts which were not correct and to a good many conclusions which were not correct either.
  What is the reason for clean or dirty coal? It is due to two factors and to
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  two factors only: how it is got at the face and the manner of its preparation on the surface. Nothing else matters. It is no good bringing in statistics about underground transport and the rest. They have nothing to do with it. It is a question of how the coal is won at the face and how it is prepared on the surface. There are today three underlying causes for dirty coal. One, as we have heard, is that householders have to take a certain proportion of opencast coal. Secondly, because of our export needs and for other purposes, householders are taking a certain amount of coal which before the war was not classed as household coal. Thirdly, they are taking a proportion of what is, and always was, considered to be household coal, but unfortunately that coal is no longer clean.
  Two reasons have been advanced today why coal is dirtier now than formerly. The first of these reasons is that we are working thinner and dirtier seams. But we have been doing that, not merely for 20 years, but for 40 years, and I do not believe that the progress of working dirtier and thinner seams has been any sharper in the last three years than during the course of that 40 years.
  The next misconception is that mechanisation as such means dirty coal. What is meant by mechanisation, presumably, is the means by which the coal is extracted from the face either by a coal cutter or by a pneumatic pick. These machines do not in themselves make dirt. All that their use means is that more coal with such slate and dirt as is inevitable is confined to a smaller space, and therefore it is more necessary to take greater care that that dirt is not brought to the surface. If more dirt is now being brought to the surface it is because less care is being taken at this point. After all, there has not been such a very considerable rise in the degree of mechanisation with coal cutters and pneumatic picks—it is only about 10 per cent.; yet the proportion of dirt has gone up very sharply.
  For the purposes of what I am about to say, I shall divide coal into two categories: household coal, by which I mean coal which is burnt in the ordinary fire grate and in the kitchen; and industrial coal, with which I shall include household coal burnt in a boiler or stokehole.

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  A good deal of misconception about household coal has been brought into our past Debates by the present Minister of Defence and the late Minister of Fuel and Power, who always became confused between washeries and screening plants, picking belts and the rest. On this occasion we might just as well try to get the matter clear.
  Over and above cobble size, household coal does not normally go through a washer or cleaning plant; it is dealt with on the picking belt. If it is dirty, that is not due, as the new Minister of Fuel and Power has said, to the dilapidated condition of the screening plant and picking belts. What does the screening plant do? It merely divides the coal into different sizes, whilst the picking belt merely takes it along from one point to another. If the plant is to operate efficiently, it must be kept in a reasonable condition of maintenance. If dirty coal finds its way into the railway wagon, the fault is due to bad picking and nothing else. Human error comes in at both points: at the stage of getting it, and then at the point of picking it.
  Admittedly, the great mass of industrial coal has of necessity to be dealt with by a cleaning plant, either a dry cleaning plant or a washery. It is quite absurd to suggest that there was no installation of washeries on a large scale before, and even during, the recent war. Indeed, the Minister of Defence, in answer to a Question, once said that no washery plants had been installed during the war—of course they were. I installed two myself. Yesterday I telephoned two of the biggest makers of washery plants, from whom I obtained the number of these plants which had been installed over a number of years. Proportionately, of course, a few less were installed during the war, but the principle has been continued all the time.
  These manufacturers to whom I have spoken resent very strongly the suggestion that before the war, or indeed up to the date of nationalisation, those washery plants were inefficient. They were not. On the whole, they were doing their job very effectively. Indeed, before the war all industrial coal was sold, as my hon. Friend the Member for Garston (Mr. Raikes) has said, on a calorific value; and if the necessary level of cleanliness
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  was not maintained, of course there was trouble. In those days the most meticulous washing had to be carried out, and today it should be exactly the same. Industrial coal has to go through washeries. If they are good washeries, and are taken care of, then the coal will be a good product. If, however, too much dirt comes up with the coal and the washeries are overburdened with a degree of slate, the coal inevitably is of a less good quality.
  It has been suggested today that the washeries are necessarily the best way of dealing economically with large coal. That is not necessarily so, although very often their use serves a very good purpose. There is, moreover, greater breakage involved with their use, and the two aspects have to be balanced one against the other. It may be of interest to the Parliamentary Secretary to know that two of the newest surface schemes which are shortly coming into operation will include a number of rotary picking belts in preference to washeries to deal with large-sized coal. It is wrong to assume, therefore, that the future lies in passing all large coal through washeries—it does not.
  As I have already said, there are a greater number of washeries in operation today than before the war and on the whole they are, no doubt, slightly better. But what has been the result? There has been a drop in calorific value all the time, and a drop in thermal efficiency for every industrial user. Can that be regarded as efficiency, and is it the result of meticulous care at the surface? Of course not. It would be far better if the Government and the National Coal Board faced up to the fact that things are wrong. It is no good saying that everything was wrong in the past but that everything is right today. Lots of things were not right in the past, but on the whole coal was produced very cleanly. It had to be, for we were living in a highly competitive world; but today coal is being produced in an extremely dirty fashion, and we are likely to get nowhere by going back to the turgid stories of what happened 20 or 40 years ago.
  Let us face up to the reason why coal today is dirty. It is dirty for the two reasons which I have given: not enough care is taken at the point of extraction, and not enough care is being taken on

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  the picking belts or at the washeries These are the sole reasons for the present-day dirty coal.
  Mr. Snow: I have been following very closely the argument of the hon. and gallant Member. Is it his view that before the war there was a certain amount of cleaning and screening at the distribution point—for instance, at railway depots—which does not now take place?
  Colonel Lancaster: I am not familiar with that. It may have occurred in certain circumstances, although it was not a normal procedure. Before the war, of course, we could never ask a merchant to do our screening for us—he simply would not have done it. I think it is fair to say that what was done before the war in the way of screening had to be done before the coal was tipped into the wagon. It would be far better at this stage to face up to the fact that coal is much dirtier today. Until this fault is remedied, it will be a blot on the record of the N.C.B. In saying that, I am in no way attacking nationalisation. There is a clear recognition that something is wrong and that it wants putting right.
  I do not believe that any reasonable person can feel satisfied at the progress of this nationalised industry. We are not getting the tonnages which we might reasonably have expected, and there is not one responsible production officer in the National Coal Board who would say otherwise. My opinion, as I have expressed it on previous occasions, is that the administration and organisation of the industry are wrong. During the recent General Election the late Minister of Fuel and Power described remarks of this nature as the views of an embittered doctrinaire. I will leave judgment on that point to the industry. Whether they are the views of an embittered doctrinaire or not, we must get better results than we are achieving at present. Dirty coal is symptomatic of bad mining practice, and bad mining practice is symptomatic of bad organisation and bad administration. Until these deficiencies are put right and overhauled, we shall continue to get complaints from the householder, the industrial user, the export market, and from wherever our
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  coal is sold, and they will play their inevitable and insidious part in undermining the economic recovery of the nation.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Donald W. Wade: I crave the indulgence of the House for two reasons, in the first place because I have not addressed hon. Members on a previous occasion, and secondly, because I cannot pretend to have the technical knowledge which other hon. Members have shown during this Debate. I have listened to a number of speeches by new Members and I have been impressed by the courtesy and generosity that have been shown. I must ask for that same indulgence today.
  I have only one reason for speaking on this subject, and it is that I am a consumer. One advantage, not the only advantage, of becoming a Member of this honourable House is that the number of occasions on which I carry the coals, clean the grates and light the fires is reduced to one day a week; but I have performed that domestic duty sufficiently often to be able to distinguish between decent coal and dirty, poor quality coal and I know of many who are exasperated by the quality of the coal which is supplied, particularly having regard to the price they have to pay for it. The quality and cost of coal affect the domestic consumer and every branch of industry one way or another. It is, therefore, a matter which concerns us all.
  I do not propose to discuss the past. I have a great deal of sympathy with those who have spoken about the past in the mining industry. It is perfectly true—let us admit it—that the miners in days gone by had a very harsh time. If there had been more concern on the part of owners for the welfare of the miner and more joint consultation and if there had been profit-sharing in days gone by, there might never have been a demand for nationalisation. There were some experiments in co-partnership away back in the last century. I know of one in the middle of the last century in Yorkshire. Unfortunately, however, owners regarded profit-sharing as an alternative to trade unionism and the result was that the belief grew up—I think it most unfortunate—that co-partnership and profit sharing was a threat to the trade union movement. That was one reason why it failed. But, had

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  development been on those lines, the whole situation in the coal industry might have been altered. It might also have been altered if, in 1924, the Liberal proposals, not only for nationalising the royalities, but for introducing and developing co-partnership in the coal industry, had been carried out. I believe a great deal of bitterness and strife would have been avoided. But the opportunity was missed and the industry was eventually nationalised.
  I have never believed, and those on the Liberal benches never believed, that the mere transfer of ownership would bring that new spirit into the industry which was hoped for by Socialists nor, of itself, would it provide the increased production of coal that is required. But the problem today is not whether nationalisation was good or bad, but where we go from now and whether the present set-up is satisfactory.
  In a maiden speech, I am not expected to be more controversial than I can help, and therefore I will put one or two questions. The first one about which Liberals have been very concerned and have spoken on other occasions—not only on the nationalisation of coal—is whether there is a sufficient degree of responsibility to Parliament. Is there not a tendency for democratically-elected bodies to pass over their powers to the Executive and thence to boards, to whom the powers are delegated, whilst gradually losing democratic control? It is not necessary for me to quote from the Statute, but the point I wish to make is illustrated in the remarks of the Minister of State for Economic Affairs, who was then the Minister of Fuel and Power. He said, in the Debate on the Annual Report of the National Coal Board, on 10th November, 1949:
  "In the case of public boards, Parliament has conferred on them by statute, powers and duties for the discharge of which the Minister is not responsible."
  He quotes other examples and goes on to say:
  "I think we would all agree that power and responsibility must march together. If the Minister has the power, then he is answerable. If he has not got the power, he cannot reasonably be called to account."
  He mentions the point of view
  "that Parliament should impose upon itself a self-denying ordinance limiting its power and that of the Minister to intervene because this will give the best results for the nation."
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  The purpose of my question is to ask whether it does bring the best results to the nation. It is true that we can raise points and put forward criticisms. On this the Minister said:
  "I have no doubt that all the constructive criticism and suggestions made by hon. Members will in any case be carefully noted and taken into account by the Board, even if we on our side are not able to reply to everything that is said."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1949; Vol. 469, c. 1415–18.]
  I am pointing out that that is not adequate, and that we are concerned with the set-up and the gradual loss of democratic control over nationalised bodies. It would not matter so much if the concern were not a powerful over-centralised monopoly, if there were a greater degree of decentralisation, or if—and I do not rule this out as a possibility for the future—there were groups of mines run almost as autonomous bodies with a degree of competition between them, with the right of choice on the part of the consumer to choose between the products of one group and another and between one type of coal or another. If that existed, the loss of democratic control would perhaps not matter quite so much. The danger lies in having this great centralised monopoly without adequate democratic control.
  Another question is whether we have gone as far as we might in decentralising. I believe we have not. In the Second Reading Debate on the Coal Industry (Nationalisation) Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) said:
  "The one guarantee of success will be effective and immediate decentralisation of functions by the National Coal Board.… I hope there will be a series of units with a high degree of economy able to make prompt decision … let there be as great a facility as possible for the exercise of initiative by the regional units."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th January, 1946; Vol. 418, c. 897–9.]
  I ask whether that has been done? I fear it has not, and we have not had the decentralisation we hoped for. My next question is this: Can we honestly say we have the efficiency that is required in a great concern such as this? I will not express my own views. Reference has been made to Sir Charles Reid. I will quote, not from the Report, but from an address he gave last summer to the Liberal Summer School:
  "The initiative of the Divisional Boards is constantly stultified by the necessity to consult

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  London about matters on which they should make their own decisions. It is little short of a tragedy that the best mining engineers in the country, now occupying the position of Divisional Production Directors, should be spending their time in the hopeless task of trying to guide the mining technique of collieries producing in total 30 or 40 million tons of coal per year and attempting to examine the monthly costs of 150 collieries, with no authority to give an order and no personal responsibility for either output or costs.… Why should the shareholders of a great national business be content with a lower standard of management than free enterprise finds necessary?"
  I agree that some profit has been shown, but that is not evidence of efficiency, particularly having regard to the peculiar and probably temporary circumstances of our sale of coal overseas.
  Fourthly, I ask whether we can honestly say that there has not been wasteful expenditure in administration. My hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth was asking me today why it was that what he called "inferior English coal" was sent to consumers in Wales who are close to the great mines of Wales? Why was there that wastage in transport? I am not in a position to answer. Perhaps hon. Members representing English constituencies will kindly explain why what my hon. Friend calls "inferior English coal" is sent to Wales.
  Again, I put it in the form of a question: Are we satisfied that there is not wasteful expenditure on administration? There are so many cases that are quoted. Perhaps I might tell one story which I do not put forward in any way as evidence. I ought to tell it in Yorkshire dialect, being Yorkshire born and bred, but unfortunately my mother, for whom I have a very deep regard and affection, is a South Country woman and, therefore, spoiled my ability to talk with a Yorkshire accent. My story concerns a miner who, unlike the majority of miners, whom we recognise were in favour of nationalisation, was always opposed to it. His pals used to chivvy him by pointing out the colliery manager's car and saying, "Sithee, lad, see that car? That is bought out o' the profits and it comes out o' thy wages." The years passed, and recently there were six new cars in the colliery yard. This miner was waiting for his pals to arrive and pointing out to them, "Sithee, lad, there are six on 'em
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  there and they come out o' t' profits and out o' thy wages." There is some point in that, although, as I say, I do not put it forward as evidence.
  Fifthly, are we satisfied, are hon. Gentlemen satisfied, that joint consultation at the colliery level, at the pithead, is as good as it might be? I ask that because I have spoken to many miners—I do not pretend to be a miner or to have expert knowledge on the subject—and they tell me that the machinery is there but it does not work satisfactorily, except—I am told—in Durham. They say that matters which could and should be decided on the spot are referred to the divisional board and so on and so on, and that the joint consultation on the spot which we should like has not been attained. We Liberals are deeply concerned about this. We want to introduce into private industry various forms of co-partnership and we wish to see something similar in the nationalised industries. I do not wish to use flowery language but we feel the need for a new democratic charter for the miners. We do not feel satisfied that there is real joint consultation at the pit level.
  I come to my final question. I realise the tremendous work which is done by the trade unions, but I find the question raised whether the trade unions are becoming too closely bound up with what is called "the new boss," alas that it should be called so. I quote one example which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) mentioned to me yesterday as having occurred in his constituency. A miner died and the question arose whether it was the result of an accident in the mine. His own doctor certified that it was. When the matter came before the divisional board, their medical board, after looking into the man's history, decided that it was not. That decision might have been right or wrong, but the communication to the family of the man who died came from the trade union member of the divisional board, not in his capacity as a trade unionist, but as a member of the divisional board. It is not surprising that the man's family felt that the situation had changed and that the trade unions were now too closely tied up with what they refer to as "the new boss." I ask this question because I feel that this sort

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  of thing is harmful to the efforts to create that new relationship which we desire in the coal mining industry.
  I believe these to be some of the causes of the failure of the industry to be as efficient and highly productive as it should be. That is the point—is it satisfactory, are we satisfied? I feel quite honestly and sincerely that it is not satisfactory and that the complaints about dirty coal are just one aspect of a larger problem.
  Before I conclude, may I be permitted to make a comment on the question of voting? I do not know whether it will arise on this occasion, and if it does not, I hope I shall be forgiven for mentioning it, but it may arise on future occasions. I make this comment very humbly and respectfully because I realise that I am a new Member, and it is, perhaps, not quite fitting for me to talk on matters of high policy. It seems to me that occasions will arise—whether or not tonight I do not know, but at all events from time to time and, perhaps, often—when this little band of Liberal Members will have to consider how to vote. There are all kinds of possible considerations and reasons which might guide us one way or another. After all, we differ from both the other parties—it is not an easy situation—and we cannot alter our views, I certainly do not intend to alter mine, because it is inconvenient.
  There are all kinds of tactical reasons why we might vote one way or another, but I am absolutely convinced—and my hon. Friends agree—that there must only be one test on every occasion, that is the merits or demerits of the particular issue on which we are asked to vote. Nearly every issue in life is a moral issue. It is not always a choice between black and white but is generally one between grey and grey or between grey and not so grey. On all these occasions I believe that we shall have to decide solely on the particular issue, having regard to our views and our pledges, as to what is the right way to vote, whatever the consequences.
  The conclusion we have reached on this occasion is that if there is a vote on this issue of fuel and power—I do not know whether there will be one—we must vote against the Government. Whatever the result may be, one thing at all events is true: the coal industry is one of the great basic industries affecting not only the welfare and comfort of all consumers but of
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  industry as a whole and our whole economic future.
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. T. J. Brooks: This is the first time on which I have had the honour of congratulating a new Member on his maiden speech. I am sure the whole House will agree that the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) made a forthright speech. I am sure that he will get an answer to all his questions as time goes on. We shall all agree in according him all the praise we can for the excellent speech he has made, and I am sure that we shall hear many contributions from him in future.
  We have heard a great deal this afternoon about dirty coal and about output. On the question of output, I have not heard any hon. Member opposite mention anything about the new pits which should have been sunk during the last, say, 20 years. How can we continue increasing the output if we have only the old pits to work from? We must remember that as the pits are extended, the cost increases. It is a remarkable thing to me that these strong points are made about the question of dirty coal. I happen to be an old collier and I know something about it. We must give a little time for the washeries to be erected at the pit top, and then we shall not be asking for a host of people to be appointed to pick the dirt out. Some hon. Members do not seem to realise that it is dark down in the pits, and that the miners have to work with lamps. It is very difficult to take out the smaller coal when there is as much shot-firing as there is today.
  But I do not want to go into that side of the question. I wish to deal with the conservation of coal. The hon. Member for Huddersfield, West, said something about the miners' charter, and the position of the miners before the war was expressed very well by the Minister. It really needs no explanation from anybody. There is the question of wages. I worked at the coal face for 25 years and I know something of that. The miners now have a charter and we should feel very proud about it.
  A good deal has been said about incentives. If we want men to come back to the pits, we must give them some incentive, and that is being done. They now have the five-day working week and

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  an increase in wages and overtime rates; a scheme for supplementary compensation payments and statutory holiday payments. I can remember when a number of our people were forced to bring up their families on the Poor Law. I could quote tragic stories of people who were brought up on the Poor Law. I can recall the case of one man who lost both his legs and for whom we were unable to provide artificial ones; but we bought him a motor car. His children were brought up on the Poor Law.
  There are now compensation payments; improved welfare facilities including the maintenance of pit head bath, and improved medical services. No one would wish to deny those things to these men who work at such a hazardous occupation and whose working day is fraught with danger every moment. There are also improved training facilities at the present time, and that is one of the marvellous incentives given to our young people. A great deal is being done in regard to education. Two hundred students are needed every year to qualify for the position of engineers and surveyors and for managerial posts. Every year we want about 2,000 craftsmen. I think that the N.C.B. and the Miners' Federation are to be congratulated on providing the future technicians and craftsmen from the industry itself. This is real progress from the men themselves and not from university students.
  Up-to-date machinery also is being provided and they are actually sinking new pits. A number of the old pits are not suitable for the installation of machinery because of the inadequacy of the haulage roads to convey the output from the coal face. The sinking of new pits, the training of new entrants, the provision of new medical and welfare services are all efforts in the right direction.
  The economic position of the country depends largely on coal, and there is still room for improvement in the wages and conditions of the clerical staff. A great deal of overtime is imposed on them and more consideration must be given to these workmen if we are to win recruits for this section of the industry. After the experience of three-and-a-quarter years, I think we can say that the nationalisa-
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  tion of the mines was right. We are becoming more efficient, nobody can deny that; and I am sure that this educational ladder plan will present many opportunities for our young miners who are seeking a future career. But how much are we doing to conserve our coal? Coal does not grow like cabbages. I wish to talk about the ancillary side and the need for conserving coal, which is our richest asset. It provides power for our industries, railways and factories. It generates our electricity. It can be transformed into a thousand by-products, from dyes to plastics. It is the lifeblood that courses through the veins of all our industrial life.
  How long shall we continue to waste this valuable product? It is a national disgrace that we have allowed this precious mineral to be wasted for so many years. It has been won from the earth with great skill on the part of both management and men; and at a great loss of life and limb, which means a serious wastage of manpower. Past Governments and coal owners and their managements have been very remiss in allowing this wastage to go on by using coal as a ready-made fuel, rather than as a raw material. It may be information to many hon. Members that 80 per cent. to 85 per cent. of our total output of coal is burnt in its raw state. It is very clear that coal owners and the powers that be have wasted the nation's wealth. If arrangements were made to process most of our coal, much of this enormous waste could be stopped There would also be a great saving in the health and prosperity of the nation.
  It is estimated that 3¼ million tons of smoke is emitted annually from the railways and from industry, but 35 million tons of coal used for domestic purposes provides the main source of this smoke menace. I understand from local government officials that this is the worse menace with which we are faced. Think of the damage to crops and the loss of yield; the increase of rickets and respiratory diseases; the loss of daylight and ultra-violet light, and the loss of visibility; the deterioration of buildings and materials. None of this can be denied. There is the extra amount of cleansing and laundry work, and the extra labour needed in the home. Who can gauge the illness and disease which may follow from the pollution of the air, or whether

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  we shall be compelled to build and staff hospitals to deal with the effects of a cause which we could and must remedy? We are really submerged in our own filth.
  I took this cutting from the "Manchester Guardian" at the end of 1948:
  "Once again Manchester and many other industrial towns have been enfolded in a stifling shroud of smoke-laden vapour. Once again the evidence of our persistent folly is brought home to us—literally deposited on our doorsteps and forced down our throats. For it is not the vapour itself but the dirt suspended in it that makes fog such a dangerous and costly feature of our urban winters, and it is by our own deliberate act or wilful neglect that the dirt is present in the atmosphere. As we pay the price for such visitations in premature deaths from lung diseases, in corroded buildings, stunted vegetation, laundry bills … we may reflect that there would be no fuel shortage now if we had taken the trouble to turn all this tarry soot into useful heat. We may also reflect that power stations, whose waste steam could profitably take the place of thousands of smoke-producing grates are even now being designed and built.…"
  Local Government could do a great deal towards ending the evils of air pollution. Waste steam and heat from our industries could be harnessed and supplied to many of the new housing estates and blocks of flats as central heating and hot water, day and night. I remember in Committee upstairs considering a General Powers Bill for the London County Council to take the waste heat and hot water from the Battersea power station which was to be harnessed and piped under the Thames into a hot-water tower in order to supply one of the biggest housing schemes in London. It is all very well to talk about the housewife. If we do work of that kind for her, we help her to avoid this muck and drudgery with which she has to deal today. That scheme also extended to the Dolphin Square flats which are nearby. A great economy can be achieved by this kind of work.
  Many of our industries could supply waste heat which could be harnessed and used by the housewife who, instead, burns coal in the open grate. For years the sanitary inspectors and medical officers of local authorities and the smoke abatement officials have been agitating for this reform in the interests of the health of the people. Over every town one can see a pall of smoke which people have to breathe, to the great detriment of their health. We cannot really estimate the consequences of air pollution.
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  Many derivatives of coal can be used in industry. Half a dozen different industries want plastics for engineering, aeroplanes, motor cars, refrigerators, radio sets and shop fittings. Synthetic rubber is another commodity made from the derivatives of coal. Many of these derivatives could be used in the home in such a way as to eliminate the drudgery and work of our womenfolk, particularly in the industrial areas. We can also get benzoic, road tar, pitch, creosote, disinfectants, paints, varnishes, dyes, perfumes, drugs and explosives from the same source. I understand that chemists have made from coal tar more than 1,000 substances which they can sell over the counter and which have an unlimited number of uses. Why should we continue to waste this valuable material? We could still supply the necessary motive power to industry in the shape of gas and electricity.
  I put these points forward for consideration. Now that we have a new ownership, can we be told what improvements are being made? How many coke ovens and plants have been taken over? How many are still in private hands? Are we contemplating building new plants? Is there any programme today? We need a great deal more coke for our iron and steel works, which are crying out for it. If we process our coal, the cake will be available and we shall eliminate a great deal of waste.
  The great oil companies are making rapid strides in their research stations and they are building new refineries and so on. We must give these people every encouragement. Also, we must have early legislation in regard to colliery subsidence. In my constituency, there are two urban districts where it is most difficult to find land for building purposes because of colliery subsidence. We have to build on concrete rafters. I hope that we shall have early legislation to deal with this problem. We ought to have a new Mines Act for the safety of our men. The Act of 1911 is obsolete. I hope that new regulations will be brought forward before very long to ensure a higher standard of safety for our men.
  We welcome the new Minister, and we give him all the encouragement and help that we can in this great industry. I am sure that he will respond. We wish him every success.
  6.37 p.m.
  Mr. Nabarro (Kidderminister): I approach my task this evening with some trepidation and I trust that hon. Members of this House will accord to me the same kindly courtesy and indulgence which they have shown to former maiden speakers. Perhaps I have one regret that my maiden speech should be made on this occasion. It is that it gives me little opportunity to reply in the controversial fashion in which I should like to reply to the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Fuel and Power. I find myself profoundly in disagreement with him upon a large number of issues. But this evening I intend to confine my comments largely to the one or two points on which I was in general agreement with him. So far, a great deal of attention has been paid to the question of dirty and unsatisfactory household coal, but very little attention has been shown to the inadequacy of the supply of domestic solid fuel and the fact that so many householders in all parts of the country are manifestly unable to obtain the stringent rations which should be available.
  The household coal ration, in what is styled by the Ministry of Fuel and Power as the north of England, is 50 cwts. per annum, and in what is styled the south of England it is 34 cwts. per annum. When I have inquired upon previous occasions where the dividing line is between the North of England and the South, I have been told that it is an arbitrary line drawn from the Severn to the Wash, and that very little consideration is given to the special claims of any householder who may be two miles on the right side or two miles on the wrong side of that arbitrary line.
  It is important at present to draw attention to the widespread dissatisfaction with the allocation of fuel against the household ration. I asked a Parliamentary Question on the 20th of this month drawing attention to the position in the area covered by my constituency. That happened to coincide with half a dozen other Questions from Members from various parts of the country, notifying similar difficulties. Evidently the consensus of opinion is that only about 70 per cent. of the allocation due to householders has, in fact, been reaching them during the last few months.
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  In all conscience, the amount of that household allocation is small enough. I believe that, so far, insufficient attention has been focused upon the comparison between what the household consumer is given in this year of grace 1950 and what he had in 1938. The statistics are illuminating, though nobody has referred to them today. They ought to be brought out. In 1938, the total consumption of household solid fuel was 45,800,000 tons, of which 1,600,000 tons comprised anthracite and 44,200,000 tons comprised ordinary solid fuel—ordinary coal.
  In 1949, which is the last full year, the amount of household fuel allotted against householders' allocations was only 30,800,000, comprising 28,600,000 tons of ordinary coal and 2,200,000 tons of anthracite. The comparison is between 45,800,000 in 1938 and 30,800,000 in 1949, a direct reduction of 15,000,000 tons. That represents, approximately, a cut of 33 per cent. and takes no account of the increase in population during the intervening years. But what is equally important, statistically, and to which I would draw the attention of the Minister in particular, is the comparison between the sum total of household coal allocated and the total national production. In 1938, there were 45,800,000 tons of household coal used out of a total national production of 227 million tons. That represented 19¾ per cent. of the total coal mined and going for household purposes.
  Today, there are 30,800,000 tons used for household purposes in relation to a total national production of 214,500,000 tons of coal, and that represents only 14½ per cent. In 1938 the percentage was 19½, and today it is only 14¾, and that represents perhaps a more marked illustration than the 33 per cent. reduction in the quantity allocated to household users. I believe that the domestic consumer today is entitled to something more than the parlous pittance which he has been receiving in the last few winter months.
  I would also like to make reference to what might be regarded as a thorny issue with hon. Members opposite who represent mining constituencies, and that is concessionary coal for miners. I would say, at the outset, that I strongly support the free issue of coal to miners. I believe

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  in concessionary or preferential treatment in the supply of the products of any industry to the workers engaged in it. But hon. Gentlemen opposite are keen supporters of the policy of "fair shares," and I believe that the Minister would do well to compare the allocation of household fuel at present derived on a concessionary basis by miners with the allocation of household fuel derived by heavy workers engaged in other industries. I refer particularly to the heavy chemical worker, the heavy steel worker and to the agricultural worker. In 1938, 4,600,000 tons of household coal was given as concessionary coal to 782,000 miners. In 1949, 4,900,000 tons of concessionary coal, an increase of 300,000 tons, were given to 719,500 miners. In other words, in spite of a reduction of some 60,000 in the effective mining strength of the country, the allocation on the concessionary basis of 300,000 tons more household coal was given to those engaged in the industry.
  I believe that we ought to take 1938, statistically, as a base and give it 100 units. If we do so the increase in the concessionary coal for miners is one of 17 per cent., and that means that they are now receiving 117 units compared with 100 in 1938, whereas the ordinary domestic consumer, which includes the heavy steel and chemical workers, receives only 67 units. I believe that the comparison between the 67 units for the ordinary domestic consumer and the 117 units for the miner is proportionately too great for any hon. Members of this House who claim to support a policy of "fair shares."
  May I now pass to what I believe is a widespread and vexed problem confronting the National Coal Board today? In 1947, when they commenced their duties upon a national scale, it was necessary for them to keep in operation quite a large number of small pits in remote areas. They were found from the north of Scotland to Penzance, some of them employing two dozen men and some about 100, but all of them operating on a very small basis. Of course, the National Coal Board organisation found them very difficult to administer. Therefore, the National Coal Board, rightly, began its policy of granting licences for private operation. Unfortunately, many of these pits, although they requested licences on a long-term basis for five,
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  eight or 10 years, have been given licences only on a year-to-year basis. They asked for long-term licences in order that they should have some security of tenure to justify the considerable capital equipment which was involved in their development. I refer particularly to a pit in my own constituency, Bayton, about which I questioned the Minister on the 20th of this month. The right hon. Gentleman replied by giving his reason for the closure:
  "I always regret inconvenience to householders, and still more what might be hardship to miners, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that no pit is closed unless there are overwhelming reasons in favour of doing so."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th March, 1950; Vol. 472, c. 1532.]
  In pursuit of my inquiries, in connection with the closing of this pit I have been at pains to discuss the matter with members of the National Union of Mineworkers, local officials of the National Coal Board, consumers in the area and colliers, and this is what has transpired. I particularly ask the Minister to check these facts for himself.
  In 1947, a licence was given to the Bayton Colliery Company for one year only. The Bayton Colliery Company said that they wanted a licence for 10 years because of the considerable capital expenditure that would be needed at the pit if they were to keep it in operation, and they pointed out that a one-year licence would not enable them to keep the pit going. After a few months' operation they again applied for a 10-year licence, and when the one-year licence expired, they were given another, again only for a period of one year. They again pressed for a 10-year licence, which was refused by the Coal Board, so that, at the end of the second year's operation, they were reluctantly obliged to tell the Coal Board that unless they could have long-term security it would not be a practical proposition to keep the pit in operation. The National Coal Board therefore took over on 1st January, 1949.
  While that pit was being worked under licence a royalty of 5s. per ton was paid to the Board, and I suggest that the Board could have no grouse on that score because the royalty was a very generous one. It was precisely 20 times the royalty paid in the days of the private owners and before the Coal Board came into operation, for they got only

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  3d. per ton. This royalty of 5s. was paid on the coal mined, and the output of the pit, although not large—I am not pleading bigness for this case—supplied many remote villages without any railway connections in the western part of Worcestershire. In spite of these circumstances, the Coal Board decided to take it over and they operated the pit for a period of nine months, when, having lost 11s. per ton on the coal mined, at the end of 1949 they arbitrarily decided to close the pit.
  I believe that there are thousands of similar cases up and down the country. We are all interested in seeing that there is the maximum production of high quality coal, which was the type of coal produced by the Bayton pit. What conceivable reason can there be for refusing to allow small pits in remote areas to continue to operate under licence, so long as they pay a good royalty to the National Coal Board and are producing a reasonable yield to swell the common pool?
  Now I wish to say a word on the question of opencast coal mining, particularly as I am delighted to see in his place the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Agriculture. It seems to me to be a contentious issue between the Ministries of Fuel and Power and Agriculture as to what can be considered to be good agricultural land for growing food, and what can be considered as fair meat for the Minister of Fuel and Power upon which to engage his opencast coal mining operations. In fact, the conflict of policy between these two Departments is, I believe, much the same as that which has existed, and still exists, between the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Agriculture.
  I believe that the poorest of poor coal today is that derived from the opencast areas. I have been at great pains to examine the facts of the operations myself, in South Shropshire, and I am certain that the areas devastated by opencast coal mining will be irrecoverable for food production purposes for the remainder of my natural life at any rate, or for any other purpose. The replacement of the topsoil has been carried out in such a slipshod manner that that land has been ruined for all foreseeable time ahead.
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  We may have been obliged, during the last two or three years, to resort to opencast coal mining, and I concede to the right hon. Gentleman that there was something in his argument about the comparison between rates of absenteeism in 1938 and rates of absenteeism in 1949. But, while making that concession to him, I feel it proper to point out that 6.4 per cent.—the total rate of voluntary and involuntary absenteeism in 1938—cannot, by the causes that he has attributed to this problem, be converted into a rate of absenteeism of 12.34 per cent. in 1949. I want to stress this particular point in relation to opencast coal mining because I believe it is of special importance.
  The output of opencast coal in 1945—that is, the last full year—was in the region of 12 million tons. The loss was £14 million. The amount of that loss, therefore, is equal to £1 2s. 6d. per ton of opencast coal. If that rate of overall absenteeism applicable to coal mining were reduced to even the 1938 level—and that is possible—the 6 per cent. saving in absenteeism, applicable to the coal production of 202,500,000 tons of deep-mined coal in the full year 1949, would itself yield 12.12 million tons of coal, which is within.22 of one million tons of coal, equal to the entire opencast coal mining output of last year. That is not a happy coincidence.
  I believe that Ministerial policy should be directed more vigorously to the reduction of absenteeism in coal mining than to the extension of opencast mining activities, and I regret to see it stated on page 23 of the Economic Survey for 1950 that opencast production, which amounted to 12 million tons, approximately, in 1949, is to be increased, in 1950, to 13 million tons. That addition of 8 per cent., approximately, in opencast mining activities will, I am sure, be conducted at the expense, very largely, of food production in sound agricultural areas.
  My appeal to the Minister, therefore, is fourfold. First, to give the household consumer a square deal in his coal supplies; second, to retain in operation, under licence from the National Coal Board, the maximum number of small collieries, notably the Bayton pit, provided they are prepared to pay reasonable royalties and show a yield of good coal to the common pool; third, to stop opencast coal mining activities, especially on

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  agricultural land; fourth, and what I believe is possibly the most important of all, to take active and vigorous steps to prevent the mountainous losses now taking place owing to the distribution of millions of tons of unburnable muck which is facetiously referred to as coal.
  6.55 p.m.
  Mr. Hubbard: I consider myself extremely fortunate, Mr. Speaker, in having caught your eye at this moment. I am indeed privileged in paying tribute to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who has just delivered his maiden speech. The whole House will agree that we have seldom heard a maiden speech delivered with such confidence, and I am sure that we look forward to hearing him again on a future occasion when we can, perhaps, join with him in the battle of debate. I envy him because, even after six years in this House, I never stand up to deliver my contributions with the confidence which he has shown.
  I will now revert to the opening speech in this Debate. It was the first time that I had heard the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) deal with coal. No doubt he has dealt with it on many occasions before. I always listen with great interest when he is dealing with matters of agriculture. He strikes me as being very well informed on that subject, but now that he has left the subject of beef not without bone, to deal with coal not without stone, I do not think he is so well-informed, and I was not so much impressed.
  It seems to me that the whole tenor of the speeches of right hon. and hon. Members opposite today has been to blame all our difficulties on the miner. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, the right hon. Member for Southport and other hon. Members opposite have conceded that the National Coal Board have given as an explanation for dirty coal the miserable failure of those who pick coal from the tables. That has been stated more than once today. Indeed, it has been inferred that if any further blame is to be apportioned, apart from that saddled on the miners and also those who work above ground, it is that all the troubles now lie with the nationalisation of the coal industry.
  I wish to begin, as did the right hon. Gentleman, by asking a question. Are
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  right hon. and hon. Members opposite prepared to say now, in the light of their experience and the speeches they have made, that had they been returned to power, they would have denationalised the coal mines? Would they have reverted to the system which operated before 1947? May we have an answer to that? No, of course they would not. Under no circumstances must we mention anything that happened prior to the war. Of course, there is dirty coal, and everyone must deplore it, but I do not think that any contribution has been made today by hon. Members opposite which will give any encouragement in getting over this question.
  We must get to the root cause of it. As one who has had practical experience underground, I hope to make an objective approach to the question, and to strike a note of realism. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that we had undercut coal, and still had to be won That is quite true, but it was simply undercut coal, and had still to be won from the coalface by the miners. There has been a big change in mining since that time, because the modern machine not only undercuts the coal, but rips it from the coal face. There is less manhandling of coal today, and the machine removes much of the uncongenial work previously done by miners.
  The machine is quite unable to recognise the difference between coal and stone—that is the trouble. If someone were to invent a machine that would win the coal from the coalface, put it into a conveyor and, at the same time, sort the coal from the stone, much of our problem would be solved. More stone is reaching the surface today than before the war for that reason. Whereas there has been a tremendous increase in the Modernisation of underground machinery, the pithead has not kept pace with it. We are still dealing with antiquated machinery there. In spite of that, more stone is being removed from coal at the pithead than was being removed before the war. No one can deny that.
  There seems to have been some confusion among hon. and right hon. Members as to what "inleek" is. When the coal reaches the surface it is weighed, then it is screen-washed and otherwise processed and weighed again before it

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  leaves the colliery. All foreign material having been removed, the final weight is less than the first and the difference between those two weights is known as the "inleek." At the last colliery at which I worked we had to provide 27 cwt. to the ton to allow for the "inleek."
  If our problems are to be solved, our administrators must pay some attention to those who work at the coalface. I understand the operational side of it. It is quite wrong always to blame the troubles on those who are responsible for mining the coal. We must get rid of dirty coal as quickly as we can. I remind the House that in 1933 it was quite easy to get a team of workers to remove the stone from the coal as it proceeded along the conveyors to the wagon. Pay was 6s. 2d. a shift. That included 1s. a day subsidy, so that the real wage was 5s. 2d.
  There is a shortage of coal today. There is always a shortage of a commodity that is being used. That is what is happening with coal today, because, unlike pre-war days, industry is working full time. The moment industry slackens off and we use less coal industrially, there will be an abundance available for household and other uses. I hope that day is long distant, but we should not lose sight of that fact.
  It is not easy to measure the individual productivity of a miner. It is not the same as measuring the productive capacity of an engineer or a bricklayer. Seams vary so much in height and in type of coal, and there are so many reasons for differences in productivity that it is impossible to say that a miner should be able to do something in Fife, because he is able to do it in Wales. People who discuss coal should go underground to see some of the difficulties. We who have worked underground understand those difficulties better than those who have merely read about the administration of coal mines.
  There are complaints that coal is too dear today. It is true that it is very much dearer than it used to be. I hope we are never going to revert to cheap coal at the expense of miners' wages. There was a method of increasing productivity in the mines under private owners. I remember very well there was a method of fixing ton rates when a new seam was opened. We got the ton rate we asked for, but before long, as soon as we began
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  reaching a reasonable wage, the ton rate was cut down. The miner always tried his level best to increase productivity. That method did not pay big dividends because it was responsible for a high rate of accidents and death in coalmining, and in the final analysis it was responsible for wastage of labour in the coal mines.
  However much one speaks academic language about coal production figures, there will always be a shortage of coal as long as more men are not attracted to the mines. Something must also be done to increase or modernise underground transport. The coal is getting further away from the shaft in most pits. Something must be done to speed up methods of conveying that coal from the face to the pithead. Those methods are inadequate at present. Insufficient attention was given to the roads when they were first made because the aim was to keep down the cost of mining the coal. This has created endless difficulties today, and I ask the Minister to have some regard for the modernisation of methods of conveyance from the coal face.
  While incentives for the miners who work at the coalface are very necessary, some consideration ought to be given to incentives for those who work for day wages. The speed at which they are able to convey coal from face to bottom and return for refilling is finally reflected in the productivity of that day. The time has arrived when consideration ought to be given to methods of paying bonuses to workers other than those employed on the face. We ought to encourage a co-operative system of payment to all those employed round the coal mines so as to increase the rate of productivity.
  I make this appeal. Do not let us attack the miners. Do not let us attack those whose job it is to remove the stone from the coal. When running up against difficulties, do not let us be critical of those who alone are capable of removing those difficulties.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: Surely no one of us has accused—certainly I do not accuse—the miners. I was accusing the National Coal Board. I was quoting what the National Coal Board have said, and saying that our opinion is that the National Coal Board have not succeeded in their task of influencing the men and putting their case over to them.
  Mr. Hubbard: Perhaps when we have had the opportunity of reading HANSARD, we may be able to confirm that the right hon. Gentleman stated he had been in touch with members of the Coal Board who frankly admitted that those whose task it was to remove stone and dirt from coal had failed in so doing. It was an allegation of failure on the part of those whose job it was to clean out the stone and dirt.
  Mr. Hudson: It was not an allegation made by me. It was a quotation of an allegation made by the Coal Board—[Laughter]—yes, and I took the trouble to say that members of the Coal Board admitted privately to customers who complained, that that was the reason for the dirtiness of the coal. I myself have not made the allegation; the allegation was made by the Coal Board.
  Mr. Hubbard: The right hon. Gentleman was quoting from some letters which he had in front of him, and he was submitting that we would get rid of dirty coal if those whose job it was to remove the dirt or stone, carried out their task. I was interested in a speech which was made a few moments ago. It would appear that everything has gone wrong with the working of the coal mines—
  Mr. Hudson: No, with the Coal Board.
  Mr. Hubbard: The only people who are away from the industry today and who were previously in it, are the mine owners and the shareholders. We still have the same managers as we had before. In fact, if there are any shortcomings in the industry, we should remember that we have added to the number of "clean faces" rather than decreased them, and the people such as agents, etc., who were running the industry are still there. Surely, they are now drawing their money under false pretences and are not doing their jobs properly. If any hon. Member cares to submit evidence of that sort to my right hon. Friend, I am sure he will see that the man in question is removed and that a more suitable person is put in his place.
  The job confronting this Government and everybody, is to do all we can to encourage willing co-operation with the coalminers in this country. We must not forget that 19 out of 20 industries in this country depend on coal. There is no
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  increased productivity without it; there are no increased exports without it. By 1952 we must be able to stand on our own feet. We can only bring in raw materials in accordance with the amount of goods we are able to export, including coal, and now is the time for the extension of this willing co-operation with those engaged in and around the coal mines. I notice in the Press today that there is some worry about the overproduction of coal. We should pay strict heed to those who represent the industry in this country. They are seeking a conference with all countries interested in the production of coal. Those people should be encouraged to meet and discuss the problem. Never let us enter into that cut-throat competition which made coal so cheap in days gone by and which was responsible for so much unemployment.
  Finally, I should like to pay a tribute to the present-day leaders of the miners' union. We differ politically from many of them. I know that in Scotland many of them are members of the Communist Party. But they were not elected as Communists; they were elected because of their great knowledge of the industry; and in spite of the difficulties in which they may find themselves from the political point of view, we should remember that they have done a good job of work. Sir William Lawther, the President of the Mineworkers' Union, is a worthy successor of those who went before him. If this Debate is to have any useful result, there must be more willing co-operation; everyone's back must be to the wheel, and we must not be too critical of people who are doing a job which many of us who used to do it can no longer do and which many of the present-day critics were at no time capable of doing.
  7.14 p.m.
  Mr. Leather: I rise to speak in this Debate for two reasons; first, because I represent a coalfield on behalf of which no voice has been heard in this House for a long time. Indeed, we consider ourselves the Cinderella of the National Coal Board. My second reason is that I should like to take a leaf from the speech of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Mr. Hubbard), and put two points to the Minister with a view to securing the better co-operation of the miners.

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  The one theme which has so often run through speeches from these benches is decentralisation. In North Somerset we are a very small coalfield and we are completely over-shadowed by the massive coalfield across the Bristol Channel, which is administered from Cardiff. We are a classic example of how over-centralisation loses co-operation and causes bad morale; indeed, it is causing a very real grievance in our coalfield. I know very well that Cardiff and South Wales are much bigger and more important than we are, but the fact is that we can do virtually nothing in our coalfield without reference to Cardiff.
  Really bad feeling among the men is experienced over the question of promotion. I have gone into this question very carefully in my constituency, and it is fair to say that because of the greater power in Cardiff, nine times out of 10 when there is a promotion going, instead of a local man getting it, a "new boy" arrives from Cardiff. I do not want to be misunderstood. I have many friends in Cardiff, and I am not trying to start a race war between Somerset and South Wales, but inevitably when outsiders come in to take plum jobs and the men on the spot are not promoted it causes hard feelings. It puts the outsiders in a difficult position. It makes their position embarrassing, and it causes widespread grumbling and discontent throughout the coalfield. I ask the Minister to give that problem his attention.
  As a small coalfield we have very little power. As I say, we are the Cinderella of the Coal Board. Discontent is inevitable among our miners until this problem is solved. This is particularly the case in regard to what we call the comp." men—men who are on compensation because they have been disabled. We have a large number of "comp." men who have been injured in the past and who have been taken off because they are unfit to work at the coal face. Yet many of them are capable of doing surface jobs. They feel hurt when other people are given surface jobs, and they themselves are not given the opportunity. Many of those men feel that they are the lost souls of the industry. The industry has no place for them, although they have given their health to it.
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  I now come to a most important point. I implore the Minister to give his personal attention to the necessity for reviewing the Coal Board's attitude towards an annual examination for silicosis. I do not pretend to be a miner, although I have been down nearly all the pits in my own division, but I am certain that every Member on the other side of the House would agree that this problem of dust is becoming, and for good reason, an absolute mania with many men. It is a constant cause of worry. The moment a man feels the slightest shortness of breath, it may be from drinking too much beer or from eating indigestible sausages, the first thing he thinks of is dust and he rushes to the doctor. In the last four or five years particularly, the doctors have made great strides in dealing with this disease. The silicosis board which has been set up has done a wonderful job in making more foolproof the diagnosis of this disease.
  As the Minister knows, we still have not, unfortunately, reached a position of discussing treatment. At the moment the problem is one of diagnosis. The doctors have made great strides, but at present the miners are not getting the benefit of that increased knowledge because the vast majority of cases never reach the doctors until it is far too late, until the disease has gone too far and the men, instead of going to the surface and carrying on fairly normal, healthy, active lives, are completely disabled or their health is so badly damaged that they cannot earn a reasonable living. I am sure that the Medical Research Council can give the Minister all the facts and details about this matter.
  I do not know why the Coal Board have not made what I and the miners believe is a vital reform. Can the Minister tell us? It may be said that it is because of the shortage of doctors and we all know that the country is short of doctors, but I cannot believe that the Minister or the officials of the Coal Board can simply sit down and say, "Dear, dear; we are short of doctors so we can do nothing about it." During the war the Services had thousands of laymen, medical sergeants and even corporals, trained to read an X-ray, and that is what we want now. It is only in the difficult, problem cases where the expert doctors have to be called in. A

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  layman could be trained very quickly and mobile X-ray units could be set up which. I believe, could cover the field annually, or even every other year if it is too much to suggest that the examination should be done annually. We should get a quick diagnosis and we should not have the position which obtains at the moment, in which men do not find out about the disease until it is far too late.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: I am obliged to the hon. Member for permitting me to intervene. I should like to ask him whether he has taken advice on this interesting subject? He suggests that it would be possible to have laymen making a diagnosis of pneumoconiosis, silicosis or silicotuberculosis. I want to tell him—and I speak with some experience as a medical man—that in my view it is not even reasonable to ask the average practitioner to read these photographs and to give opinions with any degree of certainty or fairness. I believe that the hon. Member will get the same advice from any specialist source from which he cares to seek information.
  Mr. Leather: I can tell the hon. Member that I have taken expert advice from two very senior doctors who are specialists. They also warned me, frankly, that many people would be horrified by this suggestion, but I am quite prepared to face that. As the hon. Member knows it is a question of studying the X-ray; if it is normal it simply goes back into the files. It is only the case which is abnormal which has to be referred to the specialist. I do not believe that it is impossible to train people to read X-rays, and I would point out to the Minister that it was done with great success and on many occasions in all the Armed Forces during the war. I believe that with proper training it can be done.
  Hon. Members opposite may differ from me on this point, but at any rate if that cannot be done can the Minister offer a better alternative? I put my suggestion forward only as second best, but surely it is far better to have a second best and to make some attempt to solve the problem than merely to sit down and say, "We are sorry but we cannot do it." I do not believe that that is the correct attitude.
  Last, I wish to put forward one further specific point, and it is one which hon.
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  Members opposite cannot say has anything to do with the shortage of doctors. It is the real hardship which is being caused at the present time to "comp" men—silicosis and pneumoconiosis cases—who left the industry before the Industrial Insurance Act came into force. I believe I am correct in saying, and no doubt I shall be corrected if I am wrong, that as the law stands at the moment men can claim compensation under that Act only if they claim within five years of having left the industry. Because this disease is progressive, and, on many occasions, takes such a long time to progress, I submit to the Minister that that is a harsh and unreasonable provision.
  I have in my hand a letter from a constituent, which I received this morning and which I shall be very glad to show to the Minister if he would like to see it. It is typical of many other similar cases. It concerns a man who left the industry 18 years ago and whose diagnosis at that time was bronchial catarrh. That was the name by which medical science knew it at that time. It was only a few months ago, after the man had been gradually getting worse, that he was diagnosed by an expert as suffering from silicosis, yet because he left the industry more than five years ago he is not entitled to any compensation at all and can get no assistance.
  There are many other cases, some of men who left the industry from six to seven years ago either through partial disablement or perhaps through a completely different cause, such as a broken leg or an accident like that, and who, because of this five-year provision, can get no compensation whatever although they have now been diagnosed as silicosis cases. I ask the Minister to look into this personally and to see if some provision cannot be made so as to give these men the compensation which, in my opinion, they so richly deserve.
  That is a detailed point, however, and I should like the Minister to give the subject generally his attention. I acknowledge, as hon. Members opposite suggest, that it is difficult, but I believe it is a vital reform and I think it would be far more important for the National Coal Board to spend money on such a scheme than to spend it on beauty contests, canteens, boxing shows and all the rest of it,

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  even though they are all very pleasant in themselves. Such a scheme would be a great step forward to help morale and to assist in the appeal for more co-operation from the miners, and it would cut down the tragic number of additional "comp" men who are being added to the list every year.
  7.27 p.m.
  Mr. James Johnson: Like all new Members I rise on this first occasion in a mood of sober apprehension and I crave the indulgence of the House for my maiden speech. I want to begin by thanking all older hon. Members for their kindness during this past month. I only hope that I shall be as courteous if I am here after the next election, in 1955.
  I have gathered that in a maiden speech one can be parochial and even personal, so may I begin by mentioning that I have the honour to represent the constituency of Rugby in which we have a famous school whose alumni adorn the benches on both sides of the House? We have also given the country, I think, a worthy game, a perversion of which has even conquered North America. Perhaps I may also mention the British Thomson Houston works, where the workers are showing very fine output figures in their production of radar equipment. Further, they lowered the rate of production of independent Members of Parliament at the last election.
  I have a simple tale to tell and I enter this Debate with temerity. I am the son of a miner. The coalmining industry today is in better heart and fettle than has ever been the case and this could never have taken place but for nationalisation. When I was a schoolboy in the 20's the only careers, if I may call them that, which were open to the sons of miners were those of teaching and professional football and those who wished to leave the North-East coalfields, just as in South Wales and many other coalfields, had to choose either of those professions.
  I should like to say this about the climate today, after hearing the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) speak earlier about victimisation. Of course, we knew victimisation in the old days before the war but today, believe me, there is a much sweeter
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  atmosphere altogether and the joint consultative committees are functioning very happily indeed. Where they do not function in a non-controversial manner it is perhaps because we have a number of the old guard still in positions as managers and in other offices who were, perhaps, born about the time of the Boer War, who framed their mental habits then and who have not changed them very much since. For those gentlemen, the term "industrial democracy" is not included in their vocabulary. If we are to make nationalisation function in the fullest sense, we shall need many more people in the industry who believe in socialisation—I mention that word particularly as opposed to nationalisation—people who wish to make public ownership work in the coalfields.
  Let me mention just a few statistics. I have been looking at the Monthly Digest, and the figure that particularly pleased me was that of the number of juveniles entering the industry. Before the war almost every mother would have her son take almost any job other than that of going down the pit. Now I should like to remind hon. Members of these figures. In 1948, 10,990 juveniles under the age of 18 entered the pits. In 1949 something like 14,186 went down the mines. In the first month of 1950 something like 2,100 went down the pits. Let us say that that is 10 per cent. It means that, with good fortune, we can expect about 20,000 young men with guts, to make mining their career this year, and to go down below to work. That is a most heartening sign, because believe me, between the wars people were leaving the pits in tens of thousands. Let me go back—without going too far back, as hon. Members do not like to go too far back—to 1913. Then, we had something like 1,250,000 men in the pits. Today, we have 700,000. Half a million men have left the mines in the last three decades. If we can get our youngsters to go back, and to go back because their mothers think it is a good thing to go back, we shall alter the course of our economic history.
  For the first time in our economic history the miner is being paid a living wage. Other Members have talked about the dignity and the status of the miner. In the old days he was, perhaps, termed a "hand"—and that "hand," you know,

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  Mr. Speaker, meant merely a living tool. We have gone a long way beyond those days; today, the miner has a changed status; he has a human dignity. Believe me, in the mining industry we look upon ourselves now, if I may say so, as Stakhanovites. Without coal mining there is no basis for the future economic life of this country. We shall never attain the standard of living that we all desire for our wives and families unless our national economic life is healthy. We cannot have a healthy national economic life unless coal mining, which is the basis of the pyramid of our economic structure, is in a sound condition and is in healthy heart. These figures, of course, mean something to me, who was born the son of a miner, and who left the coalfields, but who goes back there to see his friends.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) talked about opencast workings. There are opencast workings quite near me. I have been over them. The opencast pits have made it possible for us to export something like 16 million tons of coal, without which we could not have had quite so many dollars as we have at the moment. Even more important than that is this: I went over those opencast workings with a member of the national executive of the Farmers' Union, and he was as delighted as I was at the way in which the engineer, who was more than a mere technician, who believed in more than just nuts and bolts, had put the land back into first-class heart. He had put back the top soil, he had sown seed, and he had bullocks fattening on the land, in less than two years. If that can be done in Warwickshire, it can be done elsewhere. I would advise the hon. Member for Kidderminster to look at it in that way—that opencast workings are essential for our national economic health, and that given such competent—more than competent, idealistic—engineers, who will look beyond their immediate jobs, we can expect the land to be rehabilitated for agriculture.
  I listened carefully to the talk about dirty coal. We always had dirty coal, even in those days when we picked, by hand, the slate off the belts by means of serf labour for a few shillings a week—in the old days, in the '20s and '30s. Connected with the question of dirty coal is the question which occurs in all walks
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  of economic life—labour. Without being too controversial I should be much happier about our labour position in the pits if the sons of the classes of hon. Members opposite went down the mines in the same way as the sons of the miners are expected to go down them, and have gone down them, for the last 50 or more years. This is a question of national economy. It is a national question. As, in war-time, we all made sacrifices, so in peace-time, in the same way, we should all pull our weight.
  We are installing expensive machinery for cleaning the coal. Let me quote from the report of the Industrial Coal Consumers' Council about the preparation of coal. It says:
  "In this connection, the Board have reported to us that in 1948 23 coal cleaning plants with a capacity of about 5,250,000 tons per annum were brought into operation. In addition, four flotation plants with a total cleaning capacity of 112,000 tons a year were installed to deal with some of the smaller sizes that cannot be effectively dealt with by ordinary cleaning plants. These new plants contributed to the reduction in the proportion to total output of uncleaned smalls from 16.23 per cent. in 1947 to 14.6 in 1948. Some 2,000,000 more tons of dirt were removed from coal in 1948 than in 1947."
  So we are getting on with these improvements—and it is an improvement; and I would say, if I may, to hon. Members opposite that they should have patience and tolerance in this business of getting machinery installed in our pits to get our coal cleaner.
  I should like to emphasise once more that the economic life of our country depends upon the health of our coal mining. I look forward, under nationalisation, to a much greater output. I look forward to many more of our sons entering the pits. I look forward, in the '50s, to an overall annual production of something like 240 or 250 million tons of coal. If the country can get that, plus exports of 40 million or 50 million tons, I shall have no fears when Marshall Aid is finished.
  7.39 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: It is my pleasant duty to congratulate the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) on his maiden speech. I thought it was a most clear and sincere speech. In it he said that, in the past, sometimes the young men of the mining districts had left the mining industry. Well, I would say

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  that in the case of the hon. Member the loss of the pits has been the gain of the Socialist Party at Rugby. I am sure we shall look forward to hearing from him again the clear reasoning we have heard from him tonight in his maiden speech.
  I should like also to congratulate the Minister on his new appointment. I think we can look forward now to having courteous replies, for he has always been renowned for his courtesy; and I am certain that at the end of the Debate we shall have from him, or from the Parliamentary Secretary, replies to the questions we have been putting—in contrast. I am afraid, to our experience when we have put questions on other subjects, particularly housing, and the Ministerial spokesmen have not answered our questions at all.
  If I may sum up my opinion of this Debate so far as it has gone, it seems to me that the Minister, in ending his speech, pointed out the advantages which he has seen from nationalisation in the last three years and we on this side have put some of the disadvantages. I hope that I shall carry the House with me when I say that from the results of the recent election, and some of the statements hon. Members opposite have made, I think that it is clear that at the moment, at any rate, the mining districts seem to approve of nationalisation. I cannot say what will happen in the future. Therefore, I think that the arguments which hon. Members opposite have addressed to that point are at the moment accepted by the majority of the people in the country.
  I would, however, point out to the Minister that that is only half his task. He may be able to satisfy the production side of the industry, but he has also to satisfy the consumer side. The whole point of the Debate this afternoon is that, whereas possibly one side may be satisfied, it is now the duty of the Minister to show that he intends to satisfy the consumer side. We have had in this Debate evidence that in the domestic market all is not well. We had in a very cogent maiden speech from below the Gangway, the argument that the falling off on the domestic side had, to some extent, been compensated by the increased use of electricity and gas. I think that is a point which the Minister should bear in mind. We have heard from the industrial side that in certain cases the in-
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  dustrial users are not getting the same B.T.U. value as in the past. One has only to look at the Report of the Transport Commission, page 61, in which there is complaint of the unsuitable qualities of coal—and I am sure that they put it as mildly as they can—to confirm that.
  I think there is evidence before the Minister that all is not well on the consumer side at the moment. He has put forward arguments with regard to the cleaning apparatus in the industry and has gone back to the past records. I do not know whether he listened to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde, South (Colonel Lancaster)—and if he was not in the House, I hope that he will read it in HANSARD—who showed him that his answers were, at any rate, not 100 per cent. the answers to this problem. They may account for some of the causes, but there are other causes. It is the other causes that I want to put to the Minister, because he very courteously said that he would listen carefully to any constructive suggestions put to him from whatever side of the House they might come.
  There are two contributory causes to this question of unclean coal. The first is possibly the fault of quite a number of us on both sides of the House in that during the last three years we have overemphasised the need for production figures. In all these Debates, and even in the Debate this afternoon, it has all been a question of tons and targets of output. Of course, that is important, but it seems to me that this publicity produces in the minds of those responsible for production the idea that the main thing must be the target, irrespective of what coal is put through and what stuff comes into it, so long as the stuff coming out of the pit can be weighed. We hear much about flags on the top of pitheads, and so on, but the whole basis of publicity at the moment, in judging whether the Coal Board are doing well or badly, seems to be centred on production.
  I agree that that is important, but I think that over-emphasis of that point is leading to this other evil that we are now finding, that in increasing production it does not matter whether moisture, ash or dirt are included so long as production increases. It has been said by hon. Members from mining constituencies that we are attacking the miner in this matter.

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  I put it quite clearly that I do not do that. The hon. Member for Fylde, South, showed that it was not the way that we get coal from the seams but the way that it is prepared that matters. When one remembers that the miner is paid to a large extent for the amount of coal which he sends out, it is not unlikely that if he can increase his output by putting in something that possibly he might have left down in the "gob," he may be inclined to do so.
  I am not in any way challenging the miner on that point. I am challenging the attitude of the manager of the pit or of the area or even of the division, because it is this production mania that is getting into the minds of these people which is responsible. It is not a question of whether the miner shall cut in the dirt band or below it. He is told to do that by the manager. I have evidence from one or two pits—and I believe that it is happening fairly generally—that the coal cutter is told to go below the band of dirt because that will increase the output.
  I have found instructions that when the men are called up at the end of the shift, they are told to go to the job and fill up with dirt or with anything that they can to make up tons. In how many cases is the practice of wetting the coal on the conveyor belts been introduced into pits? It is a good practice because it keeps down the dust. It means, however, that a great deal of water is being taken down the pit and put on the coal which comes up and is weighed. I believe that there are allowances for the amount of water produced in that way, but I understand that some of these allowances are not quite satisfactory and do not quite compensate. I wish to put to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the Minister that there are many ways in which the manager who is keen and is pressed by the production side to increase his output figures can do so without producing legitimate coal. Therefore, I say that I would much rather see the Minister instruct the Coal Board to pay more attention to the service which the Board render to the consumer than to the attainment of targets, when it is done by unorthodox methods.
  This leads me to a conclusion which I hope is a constructive one and which is part of my first point, that there seems to be a lack of control by the sales side of
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  the organisation, not only in the division but also in the area. In the old days, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) said, if a consumer had bad coal in his grate he would go to the coal merchant and say "Where does this come from?" He would be told that it came from X, Y or Z colliery. The consumer would say "I do not want any more of that; I will have some coal from other collieries." The sales manager watching out for that, if he found the sales dropping off, would go to the managing director or to the board and say, "We must change our sales policy."
  At the present time, when a consumer makes a complaint to the coal merchant, it is doubtful whether the coal merchant knows where the coal comes from, and there is no possibility of his complaint going back to the sales manager who is really responsible for sending out the coal. I know that the Minister will say that there is a consumers' council. Does he think that some of the people living in the back streets of my Division are going to the consumers' councils because they have bad coal in their grates? They are not going to do so. They must rely on the sales organisation of the National Coal Board. That organisation has not the live contact with the consumers which used to exist in the old days, and that is having a bad effect on the sales managing organisation.
  My second point is that when the Coal Board production staffs were originally selected, the main points of control were given to what I would call the mining engineers—the actual people who produce the coal. The area managers and even the colliery managers were all production men. We have evidence, which I will give to the Minister if he wishes, that when one of these production men, whose job is to get coal, sees his sales representative come in, he says, "Get out of my office; I do not want to see you for another week. I am not bothered about your side." If that is true—and, as I say, I have evidence that it is true, and is happening generally—we then see some of the reasons why there is not a proper service to the consumer. In other words, we come back to the overweighting of the production side of the National Coal Board organisation.

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  As I see it, the final responsibility lies directly with the divisional chairmen. They are responsible for seeing that there is proper co-ordination between the production side and the sales side. I believe that in a large number of cases the chairmen, many of whom have come from different walks of life, are faced with a very strong production side but a very weak sales side, and they are not doing their duty properly. In the old days the colliery companies used, in their boardroom, to keep a proper control between the production side and the sales side. Today, it is the production man who says that he will get certain coal because it is easy to get, or because the seam is near the pithead. In the old days the salesman would say: "You cannot go into that seam because the coal has bad coking qualities," or "it is bad household coal."
  If the Minister is asking for constructive suggestions in trying to suit the consumer—because that is his task—I would say that one of the main difficulties is that—and I put it no higher—in the National Coal Board the scales are heavily weighted on the side of production. I suggest that the divisional chairmen are not pulling their weight properly in supporting the sales side. If the Minister were to give instructions along the lines I suggest, and if the chairmen were given power to see that the production people were told to follow a policy compatible with the sales policy, then a great deal of these troubles would disappear.
  I sum up the three remedies which I put to the Minister, as follows. First, in publicity—and there is a large publicity department in the Coal Board—we should now begin a drive, not so much for the attaining of target outputs as for producing good coal which satisfies the consumer. I should like to see posters of happy housewives poking good red fires, rather than merely the flying of blue flags at the pitheads because so many tons of coal, water and dirt have been raised up the pitshaft.
  Secondly, I should like to see a great deal more freedom of choice to the consumer so that, if a particular pit is persistently sending out bad coal, then because the consumer will tend not to order coal from that pit it will be brought
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  directly home to the manager of the pit that he is losing his sales because he is not giving proper service. I believe that it is the job of the consumer to say whether he is satisfied by saying whether he will have coal from one pit or another pit within an area. I allow that it would be uneconomical for a consumer living in Yorkshire to say that he must have coal from Durham; but there are many pits in Yorkshire from which he should have the right to choose if he wishes to do so.
  Thirdly, I say that the Minister should instruct the organisation of the Coal Board, and particularly the chairmen of the divisional boards, that they should give much more support to their sales organisation when they find that the production organisation is trying to do something merely because it is easy to get the coal, although it may be detrimental to the good name of the Coal Board.
  I end on this note. We on this side have been asked to state our position towards nationalisation. We have stated it clearly enough. At this time we think it is the duty of this party to make this nationalised industry as efficient as possible. Although on the mining and production side, the Minister may have brought satisfaction to those in the industry, he has a long way to go on the consumer side. Until he does satisfy the consumer, he cannot say that nationalisation is a success; and, in point of fact, it must remain a failure.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Slater: As a new Member I, as many others have done, claim the indulgence of the House on the occasion of my maiden speech. Before the General Election I was working at the coal face. I have been in the mines for over 30 years, not only dealing with many forms of production, but also trying to look after the interests of our people in the industry, both when the industry was under private enterprise and since the change over to nationalisation. Because of the advent of nationalisation there is now a new temper coming into the industry. Today, the individuality of our people is greatly recognised; the opinion of the miner is considered, by means of consultation, in the running of the industry; be is able to air his views on production. In the old days, if a miner endeavoured to air

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  his views on the subject of increased production, or on the running of the industry, he was immediately told by those in charge that he was there to produce the raw commodity, not to think. That was the temper of the industry under private enterprise. Today, the views of the miner are respected, and even acted upon; and that is how it ought to be.
  I was carried away when I heard the Minister's eloquent address on this subject; it gave one the impression that he had more or less lived with the subject from nationalisation. I have listened to the many questions that have been put to the Minister. The problem of dirty coal is no new problem to those in the industry. We have had it for a generation. This question has not only been considered by managements, agents, and consumers; we have been faced with it ever since coal mining was introduced in this country. As one engaged in the industry, I have encountered this question of dirt or foreign matter being brought to the surface and sold to the consumer with the coal, and I say, most sincerely, that the Minister ought not to be entirely saddled with the responsibility for answering questions on production, or on dirty coal. Nor do I think it ought to be left entirely to the National Coal Board. Much of this difficulty is attributable to the operations under private enterprise of bygone days, and to those who were responsible for running the industry then.
  Let me give the reason why I say that about private enterprise. One cannot live in an industry for over 30 years and know nothing about it. Under private enterprise, many of the best classes of coal seams, ranging up to 4 ft. 6 in. of clean coal, were extracted at the expense of other seams which ought to have been developed first. I have in mind a seam of coal in my county where the management have endeavoured to make advancements at five different points. The position is that hundreds of thousands of tons of coal will never be brought to the surface because of bad management under private enterprise. It means that those responsible for running the industry today cannot make the progress that is necessary.
  I am not claiming that there is no justification for the complaints about dirty coal, but that it is a problem which
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  has always been with us. It is no use Members opposite speaking about washery plants. I wish I could take hon. Members to my part of the country, where they would see coal being transported not only by rail but even by road to the washery plant for the extraction of debris. Until we are able to get the necessary plant, we shall not be able to remedy the situation.
  Much has been said about young people coming into the industry. Young people used to work on the screens and beds extracting the stone and dirt from the coal. Today, they are not coming into the industry because of the experience of their parents under private enterprise. Those who make these complaints about dirty coal should go to the pits and see the conditions under which our people are working. If they did that, I am sure they would not make these criticisms about the miners. I spent 18 years as a hand hewer and then went on the conveyor. We found that where people are working on single units of 100 yards or even on double units, they have little control over the coal content once the cycle of operation has been completed.
  I say that the blame cannot be laid on the miner at the coal face for lack of observation. When we remember that our people are having to work in seams ranging from 20 inches to two to three feet in depth, it will be realised that the conditions are not very good for the miner. We know that many changes have been made in the industry. We are very grateful for these changes, but there is still much to be done. The men in the industry have faced up to their responsibilities, and they will continue to do so so long as they are taken into the confidence of those responsible for the running of the industry. During the war, when the appeal went out for increased production, the miners gave of their best. Many of them would have liked to have gone into the Armed Forces, but they were inside the ring fence and could not get out. The same position applies today. The miners are trying to give of their best on behalf of the country.
  8.6 p.m.
  Mr. Erroll: It is my happy task to congratulate the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Slater) on his maiden speech. It can be said truthfully that we have all been impressed by what

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  he has told us in such a frank and engaging style. I hope that we shall have the benefit of his remarks on many occasions in the future, and that he will not confine himself exclusively to the subject of mining.
  We rarely have an opportunity to debate both coal and oil on the same day, both of which are watched over by the same Minister. In coal we have the old fuel, and in oil the new. There is a lot we can learn from the development of the new fuel that might be applied to the further development of the old. I am not one of those who suggests that oil can hope to replace coal as the staple fuel of this country, but we have to look ahead and envisage a much closer partnership between the two. When we survey the position, we can take some comfort from the fact that although there has been a reduction in coal exports since before the war, the sterling oil industry has expanded so much and is today making a valuable contribution to our balance of payments problem. What we have lost in coal we have more than gained in oil.
  I hope that the Minister, when he has time to study the affairs of the oil industry, will consider its working methods and see whether he cannot apply them with benefit to the nationalised coal industry. We are going to see, as the oil industry of this country develops, a balance which must be drawn sooner or later between coal and fuel oil. We shall see an increasing quantity of fuel oil becoming available. It will be the price and calorific value of fuel oil that will ultimately set the ceiling for the price of coal. Coal will always be used much more in this country than oil, but there will soon be an opportunity afforded to the consumer to change over to fuel oil if he wishes, and this will ultimately decide the maximum price the Coal Board will be able to charge for coal of given calorific values.
  I know that at present we have to import a good deal of fuel oil, but that position is changing. In the course of the next year or two we may expect to see large quantities of fuel oil, as a residue from the new British oil refineries, which must be disposed of inside this country. Therefore, sterling fuel oil will be available to those who
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  wish to use it. It will be the presence of that marginal amount of fuel oil that will exercise an important influence on the prices of coal in the future.
  I am sure we are all glad to see the immense development in British oil refineries since the war. I am also glad to observe that, according to the Economic Survey for 1950, the Government are prepared to approve a further important stage in the expansion of the British oil refinery programme. It is worth while remembering that this oil refinery programme is entirely handled by private enterprise. We have heard some very hard things said during the earlier part of today's Debate about the alleged failures of private enterprise before the war. Here is a world in which private enterprise is being very successful to all—to employees, to consumers and to shareholders. It is an expanding virile industry, which is well served by the best motives which we, on this side of the House, believe are represented in the phrase "private enterprise."
  There is, however, one important matter which needs to be watched properly and that is a sphere for the Government to interest themselves in—the importance of ensuring that the refineries being constructed have a sufficient element of flexibility to be able to meet with the changing demands in the years to come. I know that these things very often can only be achieved by construction on the largest possible scale, and that involves the important element of capital expenditure. Flexibility is essential if we are not to fall behind in the race to produce refined petroleum products.
  There is one particular sphere, that of defence, in which this matter is singularly important. In the aircraft industry we are witnessing a revolutionary change in the methods of propulsion. There is the move away from the use of the piston engines employing high quality aviation spirit to the use of jet engines, which employ paraffin or an oil derivative of a similar quality. It is not easy suddenly to produce a large amount of paraffin from an existing refinery, and I should like to get an assurance from the Minister that, in fact, we are going to be able to get all the requirements of jet fuel which can be procured from the British refineries when they are completed.

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  We know, too, that there is an exaggerated demand for paraffin by the farming community, for whom there is a very real advantage in using paraffin as opposed to petrol in their agricultural tractors and machines. I hope that the Minister will approach the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to removing an anomaly in that direction on a certain occasion about to take place very shortly. If the tax on petrol for agricultural tractors could be removed, it would eliminate the inducement which at present exists for farmers to use paraffin as fuel for tractors, instead of petrol. Paraffin is in short supply at present, and it is going to be a very great difficulty for the Minister of Fuel and Power when he has to produce ever larger quantities of paraffin fuel not only for jet aircraft for military purposes, but for the jet aircraft which shortly we are going to see in use for civilian flying.
  There is one setback in the development of the oil refinery programme, and that is the cessation of American Aid for further refinery construction. I hope the Minister will tell us a little more what that means because, according to the newspaper reports, it would appear that the cessation of further Marshall Aid for this purpose is linked to that unfortunate episode at the beginning of this year, when the correspondence between the former Secretary of State for the Colonies and Kenya was revealed. We seem to have lost a good deal of ground in our otherwise harmonious relations between the American oil interests and the British oil interests through that unfortunate indiscretion on his part. I understand that negotiations are still proceeding, and it may not be possible for the Minister to say as much as he would like. However, I hope he will take the House into his confidence as much as possible, because it would be most unfortunate if our relations with the American oil interests were to deteriorate as a result of that unfortunate indiscretion.
  From what the Minister said in answer to Parliamentary Questions and from what his predecessor said in the last Parliament, it is the use of dollars for oil which restricts fuller and freer consumption in this country. It is very proper for us to consider just how one can reduce the dollar element in such oil. It would seem that the most immediate practical way of reducing that element would be
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  to take into our use the great Haifa refinery which at present is lying immobilised because it is receiving no crude oil from Iraq. The loss of Haifa represents, I believe, something of the order of four million tons of petroleum products a year. On previous occasions we have been told that His Majesty's Government are doing everything possible to induce the Arab States to permit the resumption of a flow of crude oil to this refinery, but the Government have not so far resorted to the most effective way of all—to make these countries concerned realise how dependent they are upon us for their present supplies of refined products.
  Before the war Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, to a certain extent Saudi Arabia, and perhaps even Irak itself were obtaining their refined products from Haifa. As Haifa is at present closed down, the refined products must come from other countries in the sterling area, or must be paid for in dollars supplied in some cases from the sterling area dollar pool. I suggest in the case of Egypt that she should now be invited to pay in dollars for all her refined petroleum products and not be allowed to get them by the simple process of running down her sterling balances. If it could be brought home to these countries what it means at the present time to prevent a refinery from operating, we should soon succeed in inducing those countries to permit the refinery to start up again.
  There is another refinery which should have been operating, and that is the not inconsiderable refinery at Syriam, in Burma, which used to supply not only the needs of Burma but also large areas of India and other adjacent countries. It is a tragedy that that refinery should be closed, and that refined oil products, presumably from the sterling area, should have to go into Burma instead of there being oil exports from that country.
  If we could have Haifa, we could reduce very considerably the dollar element in petroleum products. I would still like to have from the Minister a clear statement as to what the dollar element in petrol really is at the present time. I accept in general terms the soundness of his argument, but we are very rarely given any accurate figures of what that element represents in terms of gallons of fuel in this country. It would also be interesting to learn what the extra dollar

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  cost would be of doubling the domestic petrol ration. Let us know what is the cost of a particular concession and not just be given some over-all, omnibus figures which, though valuable in themselves, still leave us very much in the dark as to the cost of extra concessions or the saving of additional refinery capacity.
  I mentioned rationing briefly, but I want, in my concluding remarks, to turn to it, as I believe it to be a matter of great importance in Britain today. I was sorry that the Minister said that he could not remove diesel fuel oil from rationing, for the very flimsy reason that it would not be fair to the users of petrol vehicles. That seems to be a most extraordinary argument—the sort of argument that his predecessor used during the fuel crisis, that it was not fair to have an electric light on in Fort William if you could not have an electric light on in London, despite the fact that the light in Fort William was provided by hydro-electric power. If there is enough diesel oil, why should not the diesel lorries have it and why should it not be taken off the ration as soon as possible? Would it lead to an increased use of diesel vehicles? That is hardly likely.
  There is little evidence to show that there is a shortage of red petrol for commercial vehicles. One never hears any complaint about commercial vehicles not being able to get what petrol they require. If they should run short, they send a note round to the Ministry of Fuel's regional office and they get some more. Maybe that is right, but my point is that there is no shortage of petrol for commercial vehicles. I think it is a sound policy, but if it is true, why continue with the rationing of diesel fuel? Coupled with that is the query: why is it necessary to continue the rationing of red petrol at all?
  There is one considerable administrative difficulty. It is that if there were no control over red petrol, even more red petrol would find its way into the tanks of private vehicles than does so at present. Members of Parliament on all sides feel that the red petrol rationing scheme has been a success and that the black market has been stamped out, but I am sure that if a further Vick Committee were to investigate the present position they would find it very nearly as unsatisfactory
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  as the old. There may not be the same gallonage of illicit transactions, but all these transactions are far more lucrative now because the risk is so much higher.
  I ventured to mention this subject in a Debate in the House on 8th November last, when I drew particular attention to the temptation which was put in the way of employees of petrol distributing companies. By just failing to put the red dye into a particular consignment of petrol, they could automatically increase its value three or four times and thus be able to obtain the extra money from one of the distributors. I was sorry that hon. Members opposite disliked my remarks so much. I put them forward in all good faith and with some knowledge of the facts. I was also sorry particularly that the junior Minister should have said what he did. I will quote him. He said:
  "The hon. Member has made some very dangerous allegations against the honesty of a body of very hardworking men. He was quite unjustified."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1949; Vol. 469, c. 1159.]
  Only six weeks later the Ministry of Fuel and Power were running a full-scale prosecution in the Number 1 Criminal Court in Birmingham in which a number of petroleum distributing employees were convicted. The Minister must have known perfectly well on 8th November that investigations were in hand by his Department, because the prosecution referred to investigations which had been going on for months. He did me less than justice when he regarded my remarks as unjustified and when he asked me to present evidence. The evidence was there, and it was in his own Department.
  Mr. Robens: What I objected to at the time, and what I still object to, was that the honesty of thousands of decent working men should be impugned merely because one or two were blacklegs and backsliders. If the hon. Gentleman will read the Debate to which he has now referred, he will see that he went farther and said:
  "It is disturbing the trade unions and workers' organisations concerned that dishonesty should be spreading as a result.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1949, Vol. 469; c. 1156.]
  We have no evidence of that at all. I ask him to produce evidence now.
  Mr. Erroll: It was undoubtedly spreading at the time I made my remarks. I

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  was referring, in particular, to the temptations to which all of these men were being subjected. Of course, I agree that the majority are honest and are likely to remain so. My point is that they are being unnecessarily subjected to a temptation which is a severe strain on them all. That is a very real disadvantage in the present system of rationing by colouring petrol for commercial use.
  One can argue the pros and cons of red and white indefinitely, for the very good reason that the Minister has never revealed the figures which we regard as vital to a proper assessment of the case. How does a rationing scheme fall out of use? One can remember quite well how it happened in the case of bread and clothes. Supplies became sufficiently abundant for it to be unnecessary to use coupons in order to obtain supplies. Perhaps the Minister will tell us to what extent the red coupons are not fully taken up and to what extent coupons for white petrol are not fully used? If there is evidence that a large number of red petrol coupons are not being used, the supply which those coupons represent could quite properly be applied to increasing the ration for the private motorist. In that way we might well find that the private motorist was able to get all that he required even with the present scale of imports.
  We might also find that it would be worth trying—by importing a little more petrol for a short period—to find out just what the maximum post-war demand for private motorists' petrol is likely to be. Then we could ascertain the additional dollar cost. We might well find that the extra cost was sufficiently small to justify our dismantling the whole apparatus of rationing. Maybe it is not possible, but I suggest to hon. Members that it would be well worth trying. We might thereby succeed in eliminating the rationing system which, even though it may possibly be necessary, remains extremely irksome.
  Finally, I ask the Minister to take a look at other countries in this matter and he will see that they have been able to remove rationing and not necessarily to increase consumption. He should take a chance on derationing by realising the great progress that is being made with the British refinery programme so that very soon we shall have all the sterling petrol we require.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. N. H. Lever: The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) invites the Minister to take a look at the Continent of Europe to see how Governments there have abolished rationing. When any commodity in public use suddenly reaches an excessive price, it is very common that there should be a widespread outcry about the high price at which that commodity is being sold, and the damage to the economy of the country is readily pointed out by many people. But, unfortunately, when there is a case, which I submit is the fact today so far as petrol is concerned, of a commodity in widespread use which is being sold at too low a price, it is difficult and somewhat unpopular to maintain an argument that it is causing damage to the public interest to continue the sale of that commodity at that excessively low price.
  The abolition of petrol rationing on the Continent has depended, of course, upon a sharply increased price compared with, that at which petrol fuel sells in this country. I do not wish to weary the House with details, but the price varies to upwards of double the price of petrol in this country. I know that the last time I raised this matter in the House with the Minister, he raised his hands in horror and talked about rationing petrol by the purse. His horror and indignation did more credit to his warm heart than to the thought he had given to the matter.
  It is high time that the petrol rationing system was wound up, certainly so far as it applies to private motor cars. Before anyone on this side of the House, at least, waxes indignant because that must necessarily involve petrol ceasing to be sold at the present low price which obtains in this country, compared with other countries, before anyone raises his hands in horror equal to that of the Minister, I would remind the House that tobacco is rationed by the purse at present. So is almost every industrial commodity in this country and so are the greater part of our foodstuffs. Anyone who wants to treat the rationing of petrol as something to be compared with the rationing of butter, who really thinks that petrol, at any rate for the private motorist, deserves an elaborate and costly rationing system to preserve an artificially low price at

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  present; anyone who thinks that private petrol should be treated on a par with butter and wheat for example, to preserve its price, is, economically speaking, living in a strange world.
  I wish to ask the House if it is satisfied that petrol should continue to be sold at the present low price when, if the price were sharply increased, to about double, possibly less, the effect would be to bring the consumption of petrol by private cars roughly into line with demand, set up a free market and produce a substantial sum in profit to the Ministry of Fuel and Power? It would be a welcome thing to find this large accession to public funds and, at the same time, achieve a permanent public economy, as a result of winding up the rationing system. It is argued that the present system sees fair play, but that argument will not stand up to any examination.
  There are about 2 million separate applications made at present in respect of motor cars, and the Ministry of Fuel and Power, this year, about five years after the end of the war, still maintains the solemn and expensive pretence that it is sitting on judgment upon 2 million separate claims and assessing their relative social merit and importance. That is complete poppycock. It might have a paper validity, but it has no relation to real life. In truth and in fact, it is not possible, in peace-time, to assess the relative social merits of 2 million separate claims from motorists. There would be far less injustice if the much despised rationing by the purse were brought into operation for motor fuel for private motor cars than there is under the present system.
  The present system attempts to make neat categories which, dropped through the proper slot, produce authority for the appropriate number of gallons at this artificially low price. If one is a commercial traveller one has the same maximum as another commercial traveller—as if two commercial travellers have the same real need, as if anything but the most rough and unfair assessment of needs results. Far from it being a matter of justice that the demand for petrol should be kept at its present low price and this strange system of rationing maintained five years after the war, one asks why, in a country where we acknowledge that rationing by
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  the purse must be used to bring the supply and demand of tobacco, for example, into line, and where it is used in the case of almost all foodstuffs except the most essential rationed ones, should it not apply to motorists who want their petrol for private motoring? We are certainly rationed by the purse if we wish to buy a motor car today. No one would suggest that motor vehicles are allocated in order of social priority. Why should not the people who out-bid everyone else to get a motor car, be allowed to bid among themselves to buy petrol, with considerable advantage to the Exchequer?
  Although this may not be a popular idea at first sight I urge that it be given a little consideration. It works tolerably well on the Continent of Europe. If we feel any sense of outrage that a rich man should be able to motor a longer distance and in a more comfortable car as a result, we might at least take into consideration that we accept a system of life where rich men have many advantages over their fellows. They can do many things besides motor greater distances—[An HON. MEMBER: "We are trying to change that."] The hon. Gentleman says that we are trying to change that. I have been in this House for the last five years, and I have found that far from changing the system of rationing by the purse, we have actually added to it so far as tobacco is concerned. We have raised the price of tobacco to an unprecedented level while keeping petrol, used by the wealthier section of the community, down to an uneconomic price by the maintenance, five years after the war, of a fairly large and expensive rationing system.
  If any hardship were imposed on the small motorist who could not afford too much petrol at the higher market price that would result, the Minister could make an adjustment by removing the tax on horse power, or the annual tax on the car and so give the small motorist an equivalent, so to speak, of a number of gallons at the old price. It should not be difficult to work out a device of that kind, as this increase in price is not intended as a tax to raise revenue so much as a tax to bring into being a free market for petrol, and to end the illogical rationing of petrol. It should not be difficult by means of that kind for the Minister

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  to pay back to the community the money which he raises by a petrol tax.
  Dr. Morgan: My hon. Friend is advancing a most extraordinary argument. I hope he realises that some people who have to use petrol, such as doctors, for example, will have their costs immediately doubled. He then goes on to ask for certain discrimination to be indulged in between one person and another. I wish that he would think this over again, because it is an extraordinary doctrine to be coming from these benches.
  Mr. Lever: I am sorry if my hon. Friend finds the doctrine repugnant to him. The last time I raised the matter the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor), who is not among the most poverty-stricken hon. Members, said indignantly, "Call that Socialism?"—because the people he supports were the beneficiaries of this system. I am not advocating that we should make a distinction between different members of the community. But if we wish to enable the little man to go on motoring and having a certain amount of cheaper petrol, the need to pay an annual licence fee should be taken away. If doctors had to pay a little more for petrol it would not hurt them. In any case, it would not be difficult, under the National Health Scheme, to make a slight adjustment to allow for their increased expense. It should not be difficult, and it is silly to keep a complete rationing system in force because of that.
  When is the rationing system to end? Hon. Members must surely be asking when it is to end. There was some justification for it in war-time, but there is no justification for a rationing system for petrol as a permanent or semipermanent feature of our national life. I have raised this matter on previous occasions. I have mentioned it on more than one occasion outside the House as well as inside. The last time I raised it here, I was forced to the conclusion that if it is really the case that the motoring public want this maintained for their protection—against the rich outbidding the poor for the petrol—then the motoring public were like the women in one of Meredith's novels—their conception of freedom was to learn to love their chains. If the motorists really love the chains of ration-
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  ing, as it now operates, merely because it saves a shilling or two a gallon, it is up to the Minister to see that in the public interest the price of motor fuel for private motor cars is increased.
  In any case, a good deal of the supposition that motoring in private cars is a basic essential, is unnecessary, too. The truth of the matter is that most private car motoring is a great convenience. Those who have the convenience should be prepared to pay a little more to enjoy the convenience. In some cases it is a pleasure. Those who are unfortunate enough to smoke heavily, ungrudgingly and uncomplainingly continue to pay a tremendous toll to the National Exchequer of something like £600 million a year.-Those who have the good fortune to have the convenience of a motor car should not be afraid—the Minister should not worry unduly if some are—to contribute some £30 million, £40 million or £50 million to the National Exchequer in order to save the bother and waste of time of petrol rationing as it now exists.
  I should like to discuss one other brief point. I submit, also, that red petrol is sold too cheaply. The price of petrol for lorries and motor coaches is far too cheap from the point of view of the public interest. If it continues at its present low level, the railways will have to face the continuous and chronic difficulty of unfair and uneconomic competition from the road. It is high time that we wound up the petrol rationing system completely as it applies to motor cars, and that we considered increasing the price of petrol for all motor vehicles which use our roads.
  8.43 p.m.
  Sir Ian Fraser: My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) and the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. N. H. Lever) have both, from different points of view, put forward the argument that petrol rationing is unnecessary. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale thought that if refineries and other arrangements had been provided in good time there could have been more petrol, and the hon. Gentleman opposite said that he would like to see rationing abolished because of its great complications. He said that

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  the law of supply and demand should be allowed to operate. I welcome this view, as expressed from both sides of the House. I hope that it will grow until the majority of hon. Members realise that there are a good many fields in our domestic expenditure in which the good old law of supply and demand would be more equitable and more efficient and would make a very real contribution towards our freedom.
  I wish to make two extremely brief pleas to the Minister, but before I do that I should like to say that he and his predecessor should receive credit for the actions of their officials, in so far as I have been able to observe them, in dealing with the personal cases which are put before them. Certainly, the office in Manchester, to which I send my recommendations from time to time, deals with the cases with fairness and good judgment. I think that ought to go on record in a world in which there is so much criticism of our civil servants. I have made a dozen speeches and asked 20 Questions in recent years about petrol supplies for motorists in rural districts, and I make no excuse for returning to the point. In our great towns, and even in the moderate sized towns, there is public transport which is available at a reasonable price and to a considerable degree to case the travelling problem for the ordinary person. In the rural districts, that is not the case. If one cannot afford a motorcar, one relies upon buses and motor coaches; if one can afford a motorcar, one relies either upon the standard ration or upon that standard ration plus any modest increase that may be granted by application to the Ministry.
  The longer distances in the countryside and the fact that public transport is not available in the form of regular bus, train or tram services provide a strong case for very special consideration for the people who live in the rural areas. There are villages in my constituency which are five or even 10 miles away from the market town, the shopping town or the town where business is to be done. Sometimes, they are three or four miles away from the nearest petrol station, and the person who has a small car is greatly handicapped by comparison with the person who lives in a moderate sized or large town.
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  There are, no doubt, administrative difficulties in varying the standard ration, but I would urge the Minister to consider it. I do not suppose he could do it this summer, because his printing has to be thought of well in advance, but he could do it a few months hence. I would urge consideration of the principle involved—whether there should be differentiation between town and country. On that point, there is already differentiation in a number of fields. The telephone, electric light and other forms of amenity and supply are provided at prices much less economic in the case of the rural inhabitants than in the case of the town dweller. Even in the field of taxation there is a precedent, for the tax upon cinema seats in rural areas, where the population is less than 2,000, is less than in the big towns. Thus there are precedents for the principle being admitted, and nobody can deny that there is a case in equity for giving persons in remote parts of the country a little more petrol for the same vehicle than is supplied to those in a town. Very often, a person in the country uses a quarter or perhaps half a gallon to go and get the petrol, and, therefore, is so much worse off when he has got it.
  The Minister will no doubt reply, as did the junior Minister previously, by telling me that he tries to make up for this in the supplementary allowances. I have no doubt he does, but there are a good many cases where supplementary allowances are not granted or are not appropriate, and there is the further point that the supplementary allowance attracts double taxation in the licence to be paid. Therefore, I do urge that, while there is time to work this out for the next few months, the Minister, instead of giving a spontaneous, negative reply today, will at least say that he will consider the matter and see whether justice can be done in the rural areas.
  One other point. On Monday of last week I asked the Minister a Question, to which he replied by saying that the ordinary standard ration for the months of May, June and July would be doubled, as was the case last year. In a supplementary question I asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would consider extending the concession to the month of September, because of its great importance to the seaside and holiday towns. The

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  Minister replied that the double ration can be used for the whole of the summer season, but that he would consider the matter as September approached. I think I have fairly quoted his answer. I beg him to give very serious consideration to this question of extending the period from three to four months.
  The special case I wish to make out for extending it to September will only take me a short time to make. The whole economy of our seaside or holiday towns depends upon having the longest possible season. It affects not only the employment of the workers in those towns, which is very vital and important to them and to the economy of the town, but it also affects the earnings of hotels, boarding houses and restaurants, and all the other enterprises which, in a holiday resort, depend for their earnings on extending the season. If the season can be extended by 10 or 20 per cent., it makes an enormous difference to the economy of those towns. Not only that, but it make the holidays of the people who go there much more agreeable because they can spread them over a longer time. They do not all have to crowd into the same cinemas, on the same pier, into the same charabancs or into the same dance halls. By spreading their holidays over four months instead of three it gives greater convenience to hundreds of thousands of people. Therefore, on economic grounds, as well as on human grounds, there is a very strong case for extending the holiday season if it is at all possible.
  One way of doing this is by giving this double ration of petrol in September. I ask the Minister not to wait until August before considering this matter, but to do it now. Rather than turn down my request I would prefer him not to give me a reply tonight. What I would like him to say is that he recognises that a case can be made out for this additional ration, and that he will give consideration to the matter and see if he cannot squeeze out that little extra petrol which would have the effect of lengthening the season for seaside and holiday resorts. Those are the only two pleas I wish to make to him tonight. I will not repeat the arguments made by some hon. Members as to whether rationing is desirable or even necessary. I assume that the Government intend to continue it, but I do beg
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  the right hon. Gentleman to consider these two concessions to the rural community and to those who want to enjoy their holiday.
  8.53 p.m.
  Mr. Pryde: I should like at the outset to compliment the Minister upon what I regard as one of the finest speeches to which I have listened since I came to Westminster in 1945. I hope and trust that he will just as firmly reaffirm his attitude in regard to petrol rationing as he did with regard to coal, because I have never listened to a more extraordinary contribution than that which we have just heard from these benches in regard to the abolition of petrol rationing.
  However, it is to coal that I wish to turn my attention for a few minutes, and to three speeches in particular. In the voice of the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde, South (Colonel Lancaster) and in the voice of the hon. Member for Heeley (Mr. P. Roberts) I recognise the voice of old King Cole. While the hon. Member for Heeley disclaimed any idea of attacking the miner, at the same time he proceeded to tell us that the miner watered the coal on the conveyor and the machineman undercut the seam in the pavement in order that there might be more weight when it reached the surface. That was deliberately charging the miner with dishonesty.
  Let me explain to the House the various reasons why the machineman below ground should undercut the coal below the seam. He may, for instance, have a very thin seam and desire to undercut for height purposes. Again, he may be instructed to undercut the seam in the clay because by that means the management would be able to get a larger type of round coal. On the other hand, he may be required to undercut coal below because of the action of weight on the coal, that is, for roof control. For those reasons, then, the machineman may be required to undercut the coal.
  The right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) insistently charged the National Coal Board with failing to reproduce the pre-war figures in regard to output per man-shift. The right hon. Member, who led for the Opposition, very deliberately told the House that we were not getting the results from the

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  coalmining industry. He gave us some figures.
  I am going to give figures and I am going to go back a long way. I have here a record of the mining industry since 1210. I am going to take the collieries which are operating under the Charter of 1210 in Scotland, and I am going to prove conclusively that the charges that the men are not putting their backs into it are all nonsense. Since 1946 the men at Lingerwood have increased their annual output by over 30,000 tons without the aid of Mecco-Moore machinery. The light in their houses is so poor that the men have told me they have to get up on to a chair on the table to get near the gas at night in order to read the evening paper. I ask the Coal Board to accede to the men's request for electric light in then houses in that famous mining village of Newton Grange. It will only cost £30,000, and since they have increased their output by over 30,000 tons a year, surely it is a reasonable request to make.
  The right hon. Member for Southport quoted figures with regard to output per man-year. I have figures for the year 1920 when the men had not gone from the mines. There were then more men employed in the mines in this country than ever before or since. There were 1,248,224, and the output per man-year was 184 tons, the lowest on record. The House will see that it does not follow automatically that if there is a great number employed in mines, there will be a very large output. In 1922 the coal owners encouraged the men to increase output by cutting the ton rate. In those days there were over 3,000 mines in this country. The National Coal Board took over only 1,500 mines. The coalface has travelled a great distance since those days. Today there are four times the number of men employed in underground transport, compared with 1922. We are asked why coal is dear. That is why it is dear. We in Scotland have always employed machinery. I have here photographs of machines which were in operation as far back as 40 years ago. I have photographs of some of the houses in which the miners were housed then.
  While there were 1,250,000 men in the mines in those days, the National Coal Board have only 700,000 men. This is
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  why men were never attracted to the pits and why they were driven away. I have here a photograph of some of the houses in Midlothian. I want the National Coal Board, the Minister and this House to take note of those houses. I should like the Minister to come with me to Loanhead, where, ironically enough, the west end of the town is the slum area, and to Smeaton, where the refuse dump is 200 feet above the colliery houses. It is heartbreaking for a miner's wife to try to keep house. That is why we do not get men into the mines.
  Before the election, the Tory Party spent thousands of pounds in Midlothian and Peebles on propaganda, on jamborees, gymkhanas, shooting galleries and coconut shies. One of these was held at Dalhousie Castle. Had they lifted their heads they would have been able to see Butterfield, where there are no sanitary conveniences of any description, and the people have to intrude on the woods of the Earls of Dalhousie in order to perform the ordinary obligations of nature. The woods are being cut down now. No wonder we cannot get the men to go in the mines.
  The Minister should do what I suggested years ago in this House. He should see that inducements are offered to the young people. It is all right for the married man, in the pit. The larger the family the better. As long as he gets a house to live in, he can rely upon earning, a good weekly wage before he is subject to Income Tax. But what about the young man and the widower? They have no incentive to work on Saturdays or Sundays. They know perfectly well that they will be subject to the attentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I ask the Minister to see that representations are made to the Chancellor to allow a little laxity in the application of Income Tax, so that the young people shall have some encouragement to go to the pits, so that they can put something into war savings and provide for the day when they themselves will be householders. By this means we shall keep our young people in the pits.
  I now turn to the subject of dirty coal. The obvious intention of hon. Members opposite has been to charge the miner with responsibility for dirty coal. It is true that private enterprise operated the easiest, nearest and best seams first.

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  Evidence of that is to be found today in the minefield of Midlothian. In the Loanhead area, the North Greens seam which had coal of the finest calorific quality is not nowadays in operation, because the best of it was taken away and it would require years of development to get to its far reaches. Then at Whitehill Colliery, Rosewell, today coal is being recovered which was stored in the "gob" or waste, 50 years ago by my own family. It will be seen that it would require a great effort on the part of the National Coal Board both in money and labour in order to get to the new seams. But we are getting to them; output is improving. In Midlothian we are demonstrating that output is improving, and I think hon. Members will agree that the people who are making this effort towards national recovery are the people who should be encouraged. In the Midlothian coalfield we have young men of our own training in the most successful collieries.
  I have heard some criticism of certain officials in the National Coal Board. Up to the rank of manager I will not stand for any criticism, because I believe that right up to the rank of manager our people are flinging their weight into the task. If there is anyone who does not possess that animated drive in connection with the Coal Board's recovery programme, I suggest he will be found among the men who were officials under private enterprise. Today, our most successful collieries are managed by young men drawn from the ranks of the miners themselves. Long may they continue.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: It is my pleasant duty to congratulate several hon. Members who have made maiden speeches and I should like, in particular, to refer to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), whose constituency is not very far from my own. His skill may be judged from the fact that he made an exceedingly effective general speech while contriving, at the same time, to ventilate an important grievance in his constituency. If I may, as one who served for many years as a Minister in the Department, I should also like to congratulate the Minister on his new appointment. I know enough about it to realise that he
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  has by no means an easy job, although it is one which also presents some most interesting opportunities. At any rate, we feel that he comes to his new appointment with a fresh mind, and on that assumption it is not my purpose tonight, for it would indeed be unfair, to launch an attack upon him.
  My main objective is rather to try to convince him and hon. Members opposite that there is a good deal to be said for the view on petroleum policy which is held by those of us on this side of the House. "The Times" newspaper, which is not always unfriendly to the Government, commenting on a speech by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor last month, said:
  "In spite of Mr. Gaitskell's statement that he has explained the oil position fully, it is still one of the most obscure of present economic topics."
  I believe that this is correct and that it is very important that we should put it right, first of all because of the great importance of the petroleum position to our general economic situation and, secondly, because motorists in this country have at least a right to the facts. With the indulgence of the House, I propose to make a contribution towards attempting that by setting out some of the main features of the petroleum position. I hope the Government, with all their resources, will take up the task and will give the House certain important figures and, of course, correct my figures and estimates if they find it necessary to do so.
  My first point is that the whole petroleum situation must be considered as one. Even if we wish to examine a special product such as kerosene or petrol, we must start by looking at the petroleum position as a whole because, first of all, everything comes from the crude oil and in the operation of the refineries we may switch our processes into a larger or smaller proportion of the particular product according to the way we operate. In the end it must all be transported by tanker so that there is great flexibility in the type of product which can be transported.
  We are dealing with an industry which has multiplied its production twenty times over during the present century, which is organised on a world-wide basis and which is dominated by the United States of America. Before the war world production

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  was 270 million tons. It increased by nearly 100 million tons during the war, and it has increased another 100 million tons since. That is a 70 per cent. increase since before the war. Now, the United States produce and consume well over half of this oil—nearly two-thirds. That is, America consumes more petroleum than the whole of the rest of the world put together; but as far as international trade is concerned, in which petroleum is now the most important commodity both by volume and by value, the United States have rather more than a half of the trade and British controlled companies have just under a half.
  It is very remarkable that we have such a large share of the international trade in oil, considering that the amount of petroleum found in the British Empire is practically negligible—about one per cent. of the world's resources; and it is a great tribute to the energy and initiative of the Englishmen who searched the world for oil and found it in a big way. We owe them a very great deal, because these oil concessions are now tremendous strategic and commercial assets.
  I should like to quote to the House the words of a man from whom I learned most about these matters. I had the very good fortune, in the early part of the war, to have Lord Cadman as honorary oil adviser. Older hon. Members will probably recollect that he was the leading figure in the Petroleum Executive which was called into being to meet the petroleum crisis in the First World War. The organisation he set up was the basis of the planning of military oil supplies by the Committee of Imperial Defence between the wars, and was, in fact, the basis of the war-time organisation in the last war. He was Chairman of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, and, if I may so put it, the elder statesman of the oil industry. One morning late in 1940, in the dark days of the war, he came to my room and placed a memorandum on my desk, and he said these words, "Here is one of the great keys of British recovery after the war. As a nation we shall be poor, and this memorandum shows that the British oil concessions will be the greatest single overseas asset remaining to Britain after the war."
  The memorandum explained in detail the remarkable new discoveries of petro-
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  leum reserves that were made in the Middle East just before the war, and, for that reason, were very little known except to experts. They were so large that they shifted the whole balance of the world's oil reserves, and it was quite clear that the Middle East was the coming area. Now it happens that, broadly speaking, the concessions in those rich oil-bearing lands are in the possession as to 50 per cent. of British companies and as to 50 per cent. of American companies—which I, personally, consider to be rather fortunate strategically. During the war production by British companies in this area very greatly increased, and it has continued to increase since. As a result of these increases the world-wide production of British-controlled oil companies has already reached a formidable figure. The estimate this year, I think the Parliamentary Secretary will agree, is about 80 million tons.
  I would ask the House to consider what this means from a financial point of view. If we take the figure of £7 a ton—which, I believe, is a fair one, though I should be glad to have the hon. Gentleman's opinion—the value of this oil is between £500 million and £600 million a year. Probably £100 million worth of it comes here which we should otherwise have to buy for dollars if it did not, and the remaining £400 million or £500 million worth is exported to other countries, some of them in the sterling area and some of them outside it.
  In any case it is a tremendous figure, but its importance is only fully appreciated when it is realised that this oil ranks as an invisible export in the foreign exchange account of this country. In other words, it is, financially speaking, as if this £400 to £500 million worth of oil were being exported from this country. It brings in great quantities of valuable foreign exchange, including a large sum in dollars. Of course, there are large foreign exchange debits which have to be put against this great credit; payments for labour and local services in the oilfields and royalties. This foreign exchange contains a hard core of dollar expenses. This is principally for specialised oilfield and refinery equipment and for certain gold clauses in the royalty agreements.
  I would remind hon. Members that similar debits, although arising in a

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  different way, have to be put against the gross value of nearly all British exports. I refer, of course, to the cost of necessary imported raw materials, many of which cost dollars. If I may take an extreme example, which may amuse the House, the British coal industry, owing to the importation of American coal cutters and big mechanical diggers for opencast mining concerns, provides a dollar element in the price of British coal at the present time, and this, in principle, is exactly similar to that which arises from the production of British controlled oil, although the dollar component there is considerably larger.
  I think that we can all agree about the enormous importance of these so-called invisible oil exports which, in value, are much larger than the exports of any single British industry exporting from this country, and which, already, are equal to between one-fourth and one-third of the value of all British visible exports.
  What of the future? It is, clearly, very important to expand British oil production as quickly as possible and to the largest practicable extent. I would here emphasise that we have plenty of reserves in the background and, therefore, almost unlimited supplies of crude oil can be made available if necessary. For example, Persia is at present producing at the rate of about 30 million tons and could easily do 50 million tons a year. I think that hon. Members opposite will agree that that is a very moderate figure. Kuwait is also at present producing 20 million tons annually and could easily do 50 million tons, of which our British share is 50 per cent. In general, it is absolutely clear that from the point of view of oil reserves and the availability of crude oil we could certainly double the present British petroleum output, which would bring it up to the figure of about 160 million tons. I am not suggesting that this is immediately practicable. I am only emphasising it to show what are the potentialities for the future.
  What it does show is the very great importance of the refinery programme. I am glad that the Government have decided on a huge refinery programme. I know, of course, that there is the question of whether all these refineries should be at home or not. I am not going to discuss that tonight, but there are argu-
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  ments on both sides, and I can understand the reason which has led the Government to put them here. But I must say that we are disappointed with the rate of progress of the refinery programme, considering its great importance to this country and the availability of this great national raw material; and particularly we are disappointed with the progress of the Fawley refinery. This refinery has a capacity of five million tons, or will have, of which two million tons are petrol. Can the Parliamentary Secretary give us the date when the Government were first approached with regard to the increase and expansion of the Fawley refinery, and what is the date when it is now expected to be completed and in operation? It will be, when it occurs, a great easement of our supply position, and will save a very great many dollars.
  Again, there is the question of Haifa. Here, of course, we have an existing refinery in perfect order, which we enlarged during the war, and which is worth at least £30 million as a going capital concern. It has a capacity of four million tons of petroleum, of which about 800,000 are petrol. What a wonderful improvement in our supplies and dollar saving the working of this refinery would make. We are losing petroleum worth four million dollars every month it is idle. I am not now going into the details of the foreign relations discussed last night, but I must say that the Foreign Secretary did not seem to show any great appreciation of the tremendous importance of this refinery to our oil position. I believe that it is the Minister's duty continually to press upon the Foreign Secretary the very great importance to our whole petroleum position of the reopening of this magnificent refinery. I think the House will be interested to note that it is capable of producing, on the petrol side alone, more than double the amount of petrol that is at present needed for the ordinary standard ration.
  May I also ask the Parliamentary Secretary how much petroleum is at present going to the Argentine, and what the Government propose to do with that supply of petroleum and of petrol if there is a breakdown in the agreement?
  I have dealt with the production side, and I now turn to consumption. Consumption in the sterling area at present is running at about 43 million tons. Of

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  this, the United Kingdom consumes 19 million tons. In both cases—the Parliamentary Secretary will correct me if he disagrees—at present about a quarter of this is dollar oil, and three-quarters is sterling oil. I am talking about the current year. Almost all this is for essential industrial fuel, which is on the same basis as raw materials: bunkers for ships, fuel and diesel oil for industry, kerosene for tractors, petrol for public transport and for the use of cars classified as essential under the rationing scheme. Many of these uses are increasing, and we therefore have to face the fact that our petroleum consumption is continually rising.
  For example, the consumption in tractors was multiplied five times by us during the war, and it is still increasing. All this uses about 18½ million tons out of the total 19 million tons consumed in the country. There remains an amount of 370,000 tons for the standard ration, plus 100,000 tons for the summer bonus, making 470,000 tons in all. As I calculate it, that is less than 10 per cent. of the United Kingdom petrol consumption, and 2.5 per cent. of British controlled production of petrol.
  I ask the Government on what principle they have decided this particular figure of 470,000 tons for this purpose. I suggest it is not enough to plead a general need for dollar saving. They ought to justify the actual allocation, in view of its importance to the public, and in relation to the immense figures of petroleum production and consumption. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) asked what was the dollar cost of doubling the standard ration, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give an answer.
  Mr. Robens: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman now: 12 million dollars.
  Mr. Lloyd: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I will tell him why. He says it is 12 million dollars. My calculation is that it would be 8¾ million dollars if it were done by using American petrol, and only one million dollars if it were done by the use of Persian crude which was refined in a British refinery in this country. It is open to the hon. Member to argue that it may be somewhere between the two figures I have given, but the House will appreciate that
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  this 12 million dollars came very glibly to his lips without any reference whatever to the sources of the oil.
  I will continue by saying, and I ask the hon. Member's attention on this, that I estimate that to abolish rationing completely in this country an extra 1½ million tons of petrol would probably be needed, and that to do the same thing in the rest of the Empire another one million tons would perhaps be required, making 2½ million tons in all. These figures may be too high, but I think we are entitled to have the Government's opinion on them. We are entitled to ask them for their own estimates. This whole subject requires to be brought out into the light of day. We are also entitled to ask them what has been the experience in Australia since the abolition of rationing. Before Members make up their minds on these matters, may I ask them to consider one extremely important new factor in the petroleum position? In recent months, the shortage of petroleum which has existed since the war has disappeared, and large surpluses have come into existence. There is a surplus in the United States, and also a surplus of British controlled oil.
  The British surplus this year is estimated at just under 4 million tons, including 750,000 tons of petrol. Faced with this surplus, the Government have told American oil companies that this British oil must be substituted for American oil in the markets of the sterling area. Their reason, with which we must have sympathy, is that the American oil will cost us some 70 million dollars and the British oil will cost us only 10 to 15 million dollars—a saving of 50 to 60 million dollars. I do not propose tonight to criticise the methods by which the Government have entered upon these negotiations. I will only note that it has caused great trouble. The American Secretary of State issued a very sharp statement criticising His Majesty's Government, and the United States Government have announced that E.C.A. will not approve any further British refinery projects for Marshall Aid finance until this dispute is settled.
  I think the House will agree that this is a serious situation. It is all the worse because actually there is a further surplus of British controlled crude oil which has not been pressed in the negotiations on this question, and the American companies are worried at the prospects of

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  losing their markets and exacerbating their own surplus. In fact, while the British motorist is on a starvation diet, there is being waged across the Atlantic a kind of trade battle of rival petroleum surpluses.
  In these circumstances, I will make a suggestion to the Government, and ask them to consider it. It is derived from my six years' experience of working very closely with both the British and American oil companies, and, of course, with the United States Government. During that time I had many opportunities of observing the great ability and resource of these companies in meeting new, difficult situations and of co-operating together under the supervision of the two Governments. I suggest that instead of dealing unilaterally with the American industry, His Majesty's Government should suggest to the United States that the leaders of both the American and British industries should be asked to come together, in proper association with Government representatives, to see whether they can work out, jointly, a solution of the considerable difficulties that face everyone concerned.
  It must be remembered that these petroleum problems are very large and highly specialised. It was for this reason that during the war, when petroleum accounted for over half the total tonnage of supplies shipped for the maintenance of the Allied Armies, the oil supply organisation was largely segregated from the ordinary machinery of supply. This was because it undoubtedly worked better that way, although, of course, it was co-ordinated in the general plans. I believe that the same causes would produce similar results in peace, and that the course that I have suggested would be likely to produce constructive remedies for many difficulties, not least those of the suffering British motorist.
  I would conclude by giving an answer to the question raised earlier by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade), in a maiden speech. He said that he and his colleagues, if given an opportunity, would vote against the Government's coal policy. I would inform him and the House that for reasons given by my right hon. and hon. Friends today, we are quite unsatisfied and unconvinced by the Minister's speech and, therefore, propose to divide the House.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): It is my lot to reply to this Debate, and I propose to divide my speech into two parts, one dealing with oil and one with coal. If I spend a little more time on oil than I do on coal, I hope the House will forgive me, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd) has raised some very important issues. Judging from his reaction when he received an answer he did not expect, it is also clear that he is confused about the dollar element in oil. I will try my best to simplify this rather difficult problem.
  First, I join with him in the congratulations which he has extended to those who have made their maiden speeches today. I hope I may be forgiven if I refer particularly to my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Sedge-field (Mr. Slater), who have intimate knowledge of the coalface, which enabled them to bring good, reasoned arguments in support of their case. I am grateful to them, and I must at the same time express appreciation to my two hon. Friends, the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. J. Brooks) and my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkaldy (Mr. Hubbard), who have had long experience in this House and who in their great contributions dealt with many of the issues raised in this Debate by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Before I come to the main issue. I should like to deal with a point raised by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll). He was concerned about fuel for jet-propelled aeroplanes and land-based vehicles. The position is that the requirements are well-known, and he can rest assured that His Majesty's Government and the oil companies are taking steps to make certain that our jet-propelled fighters and civilian aircraft will not be grounded for lack of this very special oil.
  We have to be clear in our minds about this dollar element in oil. That is the keynote, as I understand it, and we shall be arriving at a wrong conclusion if we follow the suggestion of the right hon. Member for King's Norton when he played around with the cost of doubling the petrol ration by suggesting that if it

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  were got from one source it would cost so many dollars, but if it were bought from another it would cost a little more, and so on. It is perfectly clear that the oil that is used in the sterling area and sold by the American companies is dollar oil. The oil sold by the British companies, which is sold in the sterling area, has a dollar element, too. Indeed, it is a substantial element, because for all this oil dollars have got to be spent one way or another either in its production or its breaking down in the refineries.
  It arises in a number of ways, particularly when there are British companies producing oil as in Venezuela, where the currency is closely linked to the dollar, and local expenditure is, in effect, a dollar outgoing. That is the conclusion which the right hon. Gentleman did not appreciate. There are all the costs of the local labour, and so on. Then we have the cases where dollars have to be provided to the country in which the oil is produced, in respect of royalties and against the acquisition of local currency. It is part of the bargain. While we pay them in sterling for their royalties, they require part of that sterling to be made convertible into dollars. There it is. Then you have the dollar costs—
  Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Is that true of all concessions? Is it, for example, true of Kuwait?
  Mr. Robens: I am giving a number of cases in which there is a dollar element in order to show the way in which it enters into sterling oil transactions. There is also the case of the dollar costs of specialised equipment. While a great deal of the equipment is made in the United Kingdom, and there has been in the past two or three years a substantial increase in the amount, it has not been possible to supply here within the time limits all the equipment that has been necessary for the oil expansion programme. We are still having to buy from the United States drilling rigs, drilling tools and things of that kind. The acquisition of them is again a dollar element in sterling oil.
  Then we have substantial dollar payments in connection with specialised equipment for catalytic cracking plant. In addition, all the time there is the dollar cost of materials for maintaining Ameri-
  520
  can equipment and for replacement, and so on, of equipment that was purchased in earlier years. So hon. Members will see that it does not matter whether the sterling oil is produced in a country less dependent upon dollars, or more dependent, like Venezuela. Wherever British oil is produced, there is a dollar element. It will vary—this is the answer to the point made by the right hon. Gentleman—from concession to concession, but the average dollar content of sterling oil is about 30 per cent.
  I hope I have made that point clear. Let us now have a look at what we are trying to do in relation to the dollar deficit generally. Do hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite disagree with the policy of His Majesty's Government in endeavouring to close the dollar gap by the time Marshall Aid finishes? They agree with that. How far have we got on that road? In 1947, the gold and dollar deficit of the sterling area was 4,131 million dollars. By 1948, it was reduced to 1,710 million dollars. In 1949 it had been further reduced to 1,531 million dollars. Although that is a substantial reduction, the figure still remains very formidable. It is very important that we should get rid of that dollar gap by the time Marshall Aid finishes. How are we to get rid of it?
  There are two ways, and I do not think the House will disagree with them. First, we must export, or increase our exports, as much as we possibly can to dollar markets. Secondly, we must restrict our imports from dollar countries. Those are the two lines of attack upon the dollar gap. The position is not new. We have been switching purchases from dollar countries to sterling countries for some time. If I were to give one illustration, it would be the percentage of imports into this country of food and feeding stuffs from dollar sources. They fell from 34 per cent. in 1947 to 19 per cent. in 1949, and the value dropped from £243 million to £169 million. The principle has been to switch from dollar payments for commodities to sterling countries or to markets where the dollar content is less than the full dollar content of the American market. That has been pursued as a policy, and up to now has been approved by all sides of the House.
  That brings me to the problem which has been raised this evening by the right

  521
  hon. Gentleman of the substitution of sterling for dollar oil. Here I hope that I shall make clear the wrong premise upon which he based his argument in relation to the doubling of the standard ration. We are now agreed, I think, that wherever we have sterling-produced oil there is a fairly large dollar content. American oil has a whole dollar content. It is perfectly clear, therefore, that if we have a surplus of sterling oil, there are two things we can do. We can take the advice of the right hon. Gentleman who wants to set the suffering motorists free and use all that extra production in increased consumption in this country, or—
  Mr. Lloyd: I never said that.
  Mr. Robens: If the right hon. Gentleman did not say that, I will apologise, but if he did not say so, nevertheless it has been said. I have not the slightest doubt it was the right hon. Gentleman who advised the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) to make those stupid, silly statements which he made during the election. It is perfectly clear that the right hon. Gentleman is the "nigger in the wood pile" in connection with the irresponsible statements about setting the motorists free made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford in an endeavour to sway all the motorists, to the side of the Tories. They failed because a good many motorists are good patriots as well as motorists.
  If I may return to this question of substitution—[Interruption]—common sense is not the particular prerogative of the right hon. Gentleman; it is not as common as he seems to assume it is.
  I return to the question of the substitution of sterling oil for dollar oil, and I repeat that this surplus of petrol and oil produced from sterling sources, and which has a smaller dollar element, can be used either to allow motorists generally to have unlimited supplies and use it up or to substitute that sterling oil, with the lowest dollar element, for the 100 per cent. dollar element of American oil. What would hon. Gentlemen do? Are they suggesting that that should not be done. Are they suggesting that in the case of one of the commodities, which as the right hon. Gentleman clearly said is one of our most important from the point of
  522
  view of size and influence in the world, we should throw away the chance of reducing the dollar gap by an amount of 5 or 10 per cent. of the dollar outgoings on oil involving a sum of between 30 and 60 million dollars?
  Are we going to throw away that chance of narrowing the gap for the sake of consuming that extra petrol in the United Kingdom? I suggest that it would not be a sensible policy to do so. I doubt very much whether one could ever really seriously consider it. It is a non-starter so far as we are concerned. That does not mean to say that we shall not look at the general oil situation and from time to time make all easements we can in the light of the economic circumstances of the country. We never have failed to do that.
  The very fact that the summer ration has been doubled is surely a question of putting the position of the motorist and holidays—the desire for people to use their cars for their summer holidays, and so on—against what it would cost in dollars. It is perfectly reasonable to say that motorists should make a contribution. People who see films make another contribution and the lowering of the purchase price of softwood, and things of that kind, makes another contribution. We are not saying that the motorist must bear the whole cost of covering the dollar gap; but we are saying that he must make a contribution, because the contribution which can be made by petrol is a substantial one. The right hon. Gentleman has made a proposal which is not entirely new and which is that the matter should come out of the hands of the negotiators and be placed in the hands of the companies to look at.
  Mr. Lloyd: In association with the Government.
  Mr. Robens: I agree; in association with the Government. I can assure the House that there is no motive behind this substitution policy other than that which I have outlined. There is no sinister motive at all or any attempt to push the American oil companies out of the markets which they have shared, except that the economic position of the United Kingdom must be put first. We have, however, suggested a plan to help the American oil companies. Everyone is well aware of how the oil companies

  523
  throughout the world work together to help one another. They have all sorts of inter-arrangements one with another and we do not want to interfere with that; but under this plan they would be permitted to import into the sterling area more of their own oil than they would under substitution or to sell to third countries against sterling payment by reference to increases in the amount of their sterling expenditure. The details will have to be worked out but we have made the offer to the oil companies, and explained to them our general ideas.
  I do not think it is generally realised that the dollar cost of oil in the sterling area as a whole for 1950 is estimated to be 625 million dollars; to the American companies 350 million dollars for 13 million tons sold in the sterling area; to the British companies, 275 million dollars for 80 million tons sold, which is worldwide trade. Those at least are the figures which it would have cost if we had not embarked on this policy of substitution and it represents a substantial saving in one particular commodity. I believe that when the motoring public really grasps this—and I agree that this dollar element is complex and intricate—they will say that it is right that we should use this surplus oil for substitution rather than for increasing the allocation or freeing petrol altogether for the private motorist.
  Rationing therefore will have to continue, and I regret very much the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. N. H. Lever) who felt we should free petrol from rationing altogether and let the price element take its place. There may be something in the fact that petrol is probably cheap in comparison with other commodities, but it is really wrong to think that we can just, willy-nilly, take off rationing tomorrow and let the price maximum adjust that. It would be clearly unfair—
  Mr. N. H. Leverrose—
  Mr. Robens: No, I have only a few minutes. I have not said a word about coal yet, and this is the second occasion on which my hon. Friend has raised this matter and he has had a full reply before.
  Mr. Lever: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order to comment on
  524
  the speech of an hon. Member by reference to him personally, without allowing him the right of intervention at all?
  Mr. Speaker: The Minister is entitled to make his own speech in his own way.
  Mr. Robens: As I say, the hon. Gentleman has raised this matter in the House before and I replied to him on that occasion. I do not want to go into the matter in too great detail, except to say I am sorry he raised it once again. It is impossible to abolish petrol rationing and to allow consumption to rise, because of the question of substitution.
  The point was raised about the abolition of rationing in other countries. That is perfectly true, but the circumstances are not the same. The amount of petrol we use for private motoring in this country is as much as that used in 17 other European countries put together. A 10 per cent. rise in our consumption would be an enormous figure. A 10 per cent. rise in the consumption of any other European country would be nothing like so much, and it would not have the same dollar effect. In any case, in this matter of the dollar gap, with which most of these countries are concerned, it is up to those countries as sovereign countries to decide what methods to adopt to reduce the dollar gap. They realise the importance of economy in relation to petrol. However, that is not a matter in which His Majesty's Government could possibly interfere.
  The case has been made from this side of the House that the abolition of rationing in other countries has also sent the price sky high, to something like double our own price. It does not seem to me that we can argue as to whether a Sovereign State should or should not do this or that in its own economy. In the United Kingdom at present we use five million tons of petrol a year. That is a very substantial amount. Any increase in that, in relation to percentages, is a very different fact compared with other countries who do not use as much petrol as we do in bulk.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: What about Australia?
  Mr. Robens: The right hon. Member for King's Norton spoke about refinery delays; that was an interesting view

  525
  coming from him. It is only while there has been a Labour Government in power that we have ever built any refineries in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] There has not really been undue delay. In a small country like this, when embarking on a very big refinery programme, one simply cannot dump refineries in any old place. There are many considerations to bear in mind. There have to be places with deep water anchorages, and it is important to look at these matters closely.
  This point was mentioned by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). When we dig up part of somebody's constituency for open-cast coal, he complains that agricultural land is being ruined, although it is restored; but presumably, according to his hon. Friends, we can go in and take 500 or 800 acres of agricultural land and dump a refinery there without any question at all. That seems to me a nonsensical way of looking at the matter. We must consider agricultural interests. We must bear in mind strategical considerations, and it takes time to decide exactly where a refinery should be placed. There is also the question of the availability of labour for the construction of the refinery and its operation. If it is to be built away from a populated area, there is the question of housing and services, schools and things of that character. These are big installations, and a good deal of thought and consideration must be given to them.
  That we have done, and we are going ahead with a big refinery programme. It is much bigger than anything the Tories thought about for this country. As far as Fawley is concerned, the work started on the site in June, 1949. It was originally planned for completion in December, 1952. It is 12 months ahead of schedule and will be finished in December, 1951. That will have an output of 5,500,000 tons. Stanlow was started in April, 1948, and it will be finished in 1951. Shell Haven was started in 1948, and it will be finished in 1951. Llandarcy was started in 1948 and will be completed in the autumn of 1953. Grangemouth was started in January, 1949, and will be completed in mid-1953. There will be a total of refinery capacity of 14.7 million tons in these refineries which I have just enumerated.
  526
  I do not propose to say much about Haifa, except that—[Laughter.] I do not know that that is very funny; I see nothing funny about it. The countries concerned are both sovereign countries, and they have the right to please themselves in these matters. His Majesty's Government would like Haifa re-opened, and representations have been made from time to time, as the Foreign Secretary has said in this House. Beyond that, there is nothing more to say about Haifa. [Interruption.] Indeed, there is not. We regret very much that it is not re-opened, and we hope that, as the months go by and things reach a more placid state, we shall get Haifa re-opened, but certainly we can do not more than request the Governments concerned to agree to the re-opening of Haifa by allowing the oil to come through the pipeline or by tanker through the Suez Canal.
  I apologise to the House for spending so much time on oil, but it really is important that the facts should be given. There is little time left to deal with a good many of the matters in relation to coal which were raised in the Debate. I listened to this Debate with great attention, as I have done to all the other Debates, and I listened once more to the same old story from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) got very confused about the E.C.A. figures for 1947. May I tell him briefly that they were merely the estimates of the importing countries, which grossly over-estimated their requirements, as I should be able to prove to him if I had more time. Therefore, there is no question at all of having to export more in those years. It is not necessary, but it may be of interest to the right hon. Gentleman to know that the Americans, who were due to import 14 million tons this year into Europe, will only import one million tons, so completely and grossly exaggerated were the original estimates.
  Great play has been made on the subject of dirty coal, and my right hon. Friend did not deny that dirty coal did exist. At no time have we denied it, nor have the Coal Board denied it, but the fact is that the Coal Board have taken every step that they can, with the physical limitations of material and labour and

  527
  everything else, to improve this position. It may be that we have got dirt in the coal, but there is one other thing, and that is that we have washed the blood off the coal which, during the time when hon Gentlemen opposite and their friends were running the coal industry, was the usual feature in regard to this industry. What has been done in the building up of welfare and safety has been truly re-
  markable, and I take great satisfaction myself from the fact that the fatalities last year were only 460 compared with 925 in 1941. That is real progress, for which the National Coal Board ought to have some credit.
  Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
  The House divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 257.

  Division No.6.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m

  Aitken, W. T.

  Drewe, C.

  Johnson, H. S. (Kemptown)

  Amery, J. (Preston, N.)

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Amory, D. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Arbuthnot, J. S.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn W.)

  Eccles, D. M.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Baker, P.

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Baldock, J. M.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Fisher, N. T. L.

  Lagge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Banks, Col. C.

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Baxter, A. B.

  Fort, R.

  Lindsay, Martin

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Foster, J. G.

  Linstead, H. N.

  Bell, R. M. (S. Buckinghamshire)

  Fraser, Hon. H. C. P. (Stone)

  Llewellyn, D.

  Bennett, Sir P. (Edgbaston)

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Bennett, R. F. B. (Gosport)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Bennett, W. G. (Woodside)

  Gage, C. H.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Bevins, J. R. (Liverpool, Toxteth)

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col J. C.

  Birch, Nigel

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Longden, G. J. M. (Herts, S. W.)

  Bishop, F. P.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Black, C. W.

  Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh)

  Lucas, Major Sir J. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Boothby, R.

  George, Lady M. Lloyd

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Bowen, R.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Bower, N.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  McCallum, Maj. D.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Grimston, Hon. J. (St. Albans)

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Braine, B.

  Grimston, R. V. (Westbury)

  Macdonald, A. J. F. (Roxburgh)

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

  Harden, J. R. E.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  McKibbin, A.

  Brooke, H. (Hampstead)

  Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Browne, J. N. (Govan)

  Harris, R. R. (Heston)

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Harvey, Air-Codre, A. V. (Macclesfield)

  Maclean, F. H. R.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Harvey, I. (Harrow, E.)

  MacLeod, I. (Enfield, W.)

  Bullus, Wing-Commander E. E.

  Hay, John

  MacLeod, J. (Ross and Cromarty)

  Butcher, H. W.

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Carr, L. R. (Mitcham)

  Heald, L. F.

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Carson, Hon. E.

  Heath, Colonel E. G. R.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Channon, H.

  Henderson, John (Catheart)

  Manningham-Butler, R. E.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Clarke, Col. R. S. (East Grimstead)

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Marples, A. E.

  Clarke, Brig. T. H. (Portsmouth, W.)

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Colegate, A.

  Hill, Dr. C. (Luton)

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Maude, A. E. U. (Ealing, S.)

  Cooper, A. E. (Ilford, S.)

  Hirst, G. A. N.

  Maudling, R.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Medlicott, Brigadier F.

  Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Hollis, M. C.

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Craddock, G. B. (Spelthorne)

  Hormes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  Cross, Rt. Hon. Sir R.

  Hopkinson, H.

  Morris, R. Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  Crosthwaith-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss P.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Crouch, R. F.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Crowder, F. P. (Ruislip. N'thwood)

  Howard, G. R. (St. Ives)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Crowder, Capt. John F. E. (F'chley)

  Howard, S. G. (Cambridgeshire)

  Nabarro, G.

  Cundiff, F. W.

  Hudson, Sir A. U. M. (Lewisham, N.)

  Nicholls, H.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Nicholson, G.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Davies, Nigel (Epping)

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  de Chair, S.

  Hurd, A. R.

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  De la Bère, R.

  Hutchinson, G. (Ilford, N.)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Deedes, W. F.

  Hutchinson, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Hyde, H. M.

  Odey, G. W.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Hylton-Forester, H. B.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord M.

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Jennings, R.

  Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

  Touche, G. C.

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Smith, E. M. (Grantham)

  Turton, R. H.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Pickthorn, K.

  Smithers, Sir W. (Orpington)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Vosper, D. F.

  Prescott, Stanley

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Wade, D. M.

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Wakefield, E. B. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Wakefield, Sir W. W. (St. Marylebone)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Spens, Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O. (Bristol, W.)

  Ward, Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. R. (N. Fylde)

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Redmayne, M.

  Stevens, G. P.

  Waterhouse, Capt. C.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Watkinson, H.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Storey, S.

  Webbe, Sir H. (London)

  Roberts, P. G. (Heeley)

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  White, J. Baker (Canterbury)

  Robertson, Sir D. (Caithness)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Robinson, J. Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Studholme, H. G.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Summers, G. S.

  Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, E.)

  Rodgers, J. (Sevenoaks)

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Wills, G.

  Roper, Sir H.

  Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

  Wilson, G. (Truro)

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Teeling, William

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Russell, R. S.

  Thompson, K. P. (Waltson)

  York, C.

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Thompson, R. H. M. (Croydon, W.)

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Patriok)

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

  Savory, Prof, D. L.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Scott, Donald

  Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

  Brigadier Mackeson and

  Shepherd, W. S. (Cheadle)

  Tilney, J. D.

  Major Wheatley.

  NOES

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Darling, G. (Hillsboro')

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Tipton)

  Adams, Richard

  Davies, Edward (Stoke, N.)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Hobson, C. R.

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Holman, P.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Deer, G.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Ayles, W. H.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hoy, J.

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Diamond, J.

  Hubbard, T.

  Baird, J.

  Donnelly, D.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, N.)

  Balfour, A.

  Donovan, T. N.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Bartley, P.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. J. (W. Bromwich)

  Hughes, R. M. (Islington, N.)

  Benson, G.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Beswick, F.

  Edelman, M.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Janner, B.

  Boardman, H.

  Ewart, R.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Booth, A.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jeger, G. (Goole)

  Bowden, H. W.

  Finch, H. J.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Follick, M.

  Jenkins, R. H.

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Foot, M. M.

  Johnson, J. (Rugby)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Forman, J. C.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley),

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

  Brooks, T. J. (Normanton)

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Jones, W. E. (Conway)

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Keenan, W.

  Burke, W. A.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Kenyon, C.

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Gilzean, A.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Callaghan, James

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  King, H. M.

  Carmichael, James

  Gooch, E. G.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Kinley, J.

  Champion, A. J.

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Rossendale)

  Lee, F. (Newton)

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Lee, Miss. J. (Cannock)

  Clunie, J.

  Grey, C. F.

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Cocks, F. S.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Lever, N. H. (Cheetham)

  Coldrick, W.

  Griffiths, W. D. (Exchange)

  Lewis, A. W. J. (West Ham, N.)

  Collick, P.

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Lewis, J. (Bolton, W.)

  Collindridge, F.

  Hale, J. (Rochdale)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Cook, T. F.

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Logan, D. G.

  Cooper, J. (Deptford)

  Hall, J. (Gateshead, W.)

  McAllister, G.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Peckham)

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hannan, W.

  McGovern, J.

  Crawley, A.

  Hardy, E. A.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Reading, N.)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Harrison, J.

  McLeavy, F.

  Daines, P.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Hayman, F. H.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  530

  531

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Timmons, J.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Pursey, Comdr. H.

  Tomney, F.

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Rankin, J.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Rees, Mrs. D.

  Viant, S. P.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Reeves, J.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Weitzman, D.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Reid, W. (Camlachie)

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Messer, F.

  Robens, A.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  West D. G.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

  Monslow, W.

  Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)

  White, Mrs. E. (E. Flint)

  Moody, A. S.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Royle, C.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Morley, R.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Wigg, George

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

  Moyle, A.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Wilkes, L.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Murray, J. D.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Nally, W.

  Slater, J.

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Neal, H.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  O'Brien, T.

  Snow, J. W.

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Winterbottom, I. (NOttingham, C.)

  Orbach, M.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Winterbottom, R. E. (Brightside)

  Padley, W. E.

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Paget, R. T.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Paling, Rt. Hn. Wilfred (Dearne V'lly)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Woods, Rev. G. S.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Pannell, T. C.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Yates, V. F.

  Parker, J.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Pearson, A.

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Peart, T. F.

  Thomas, I. R. (Rhondda, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Porter, G.

  Thomas, T. George (Cardiff)

  Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Sparks.

  Price, M. Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Adjourned accordingly at Fourteen Minutes past Ten o'Clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Viscount Craigavon— Took the Oath.
DERBY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

COMMUNISTS IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE
2.35 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART LORD VANSITTART rose to call attention to the extent of Communist infiltration into the public service and other important branches of public life in this country; and to move to resolve that continuous and resolute precautions are necessary for public security. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have now had the honour to be a member of your Lordships' House for nine years, and I think I may fairly say that I have not unduly inflicted my opinions upon you. I have spoken only when conscience impelled or when I knew something of my subject. To-day is a case in point. I have some disagreeable things to say, but they will be said in no partisan spirit. We are all in this. The day before yesterday the Manchester Guardian wrote:
"On Wednesday Lord Vansittart will resume his battle against the Communists."
No, it is not that at all; it is not my battle; it is the battle of every man and woman of good sense and good will in the country. This is a case where the national interest is involved. Therefore, I am distributing no tenderness and asking for none. I beg that we shall not be deceived by superficial appearances. We have certainly come a long and healthy way since those days of 1945 when some Socialist Members of Parliament, successful candidates, were thanking the Communists for their support. Happily now, in 1950, the Communists have been thrown out of another place, and some of their fellow-travellers as well. In that Election the British public declared itself
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overwhelmingly against Communism and is therefore entitled to protection against it. But I do not think it is getting enough.
Before I proceed to demonstrate that fact, there are two things that I simply must say. The Fuchs affair has resulted in the United States in a recrudescence of that rather irritating "holier than thou" attitude. In mild retaliation, I venture to say that the Motion before your Lordships' House this afternoon has nothing in common with the shy-making ballyhoo of Senator McCarthy—the very way not to handle matters of this kind. What I shall set before you this afternoon is fully documented, fair and factual. I hope, therefore, just to level things up a little that this afternoon the British Upper Chamber will set an example to the American Upper Chamber. The other thing I wish to say is this. Although I shall be fair and factual, I shall be vigorous, but not a whit more vigorous than was the Lord President of the Council in his speech last Friday. I thought that was an admirable speech, if I may say so, in which the Lord President said any number of things I should have wished to say myself; but when I saw that the Lord President had said that the Communists should be democratically cleaned out of the unions, I could not help thinking that what is sauce for the unions is going to be sauce for a good many other people before I sit down today. I am very grateful indeed to the Lord President for making that speech, because I think he has made it hard for the Government not to accept my Motion this afternoon; and of course I shall do all I can to make it harder still.
My first concern is with the public service, but I have a great deal of ground to clear before I get there. In some comfortable quarters, seeing the complete Communist defeat in the Election, I might be thought even alarmist for bringing this Motion before the House, for we are all naturally elated that the Communists have forfeited their deposits. But wait a minute: what was the total sum involved? It was £13,950–a mere bagatelle to Moscow, which is spending more than that on the Daily Worker and other forms of sedition which are financed by the abuse of diplomatic privilege. Moreover, even before the date of the Election was fixed, it was fairly common talk that Messrs. Gallagher and

609
Piratin would lose their seats, though I congratulate the Government none the less on the result. I should say that every household and every house sparrow knew that the Communists would forfeit their deposits.
Why, then, was the sorry exhibition staged? Mrs. Pollitt let the cat out of a fairly wide open bag on February 24, the day after the Election. For some unknown reason the B.B.C. gave the Pollitt family a double innings on the air. Mrs. Pollitt said, in substance, that they were not in the least dismayed by this result because the Parliamentary Elections and Parliamentary institutions were not at all their cup of tea; they work through the streets, the unions and the factories. Of course, that is perfectly true, but the Communists know very well that democracies seek for nothing better than an excuse to go to sleep if they can. And here is a whole tankful of soothing syrup, cheap to Moscow at £13,950. Therefore, I hope that while we all rejoice at the Communist defeat, we shall not lounge too far into the trap. We must not swallow every Soviet bait.
Take, for example, this matter of the maintenance of our missions behind the Iron Curtain. There are only two arguments in favour of maintaining them, both quite respectable. One is that the Foreign Office say they want a window on the world. I have already retorted that the panes are frosted. The other is that we must stay because Stalin wants us to go. Well, yes, but have we not learnt by now that dictators always want several contradictory things at the same time? For example, Hitler wanted diplomatic triumphs, but he also wanted war —he wanted it both ways. Stalin wants us to go, but he also wants to destroy our prestige, to destroy it utterly, and nothing suits him better for that purpose than to maintain our missions there as a sort of Aunt Sally. That is one argument and here is another. Stalin is doing what all tyrannies not only do but are inevitably driven to do—they all seek to reconcile their subjects to their sufferings, particularly to the huge burden of aggressive armaments, by preaching to them that they are surrounded by a hostile and conspiratorial world wishing to spring upon them at the first possible opportunity. The Germans played that card ad nauseam before both world wars. Their principal card was the cry of en-
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circlement. Similarly, Stalin keeps on staging these fake conspiratorial dramas because it suits him to point to the West and the Western missions as the villians of the piece. We play his game to that extent by maintaining our missions there. That is the second counter-argument.
I come to a third counter argument, and it is this. In the Cominform headquarters at Bucharest there is a Bureau of Supervision presided over by Signor Reale and a Monsieur Boysson. Signor Reale is an Italian Communist who at one time was Ambassador to Warsaw; and Monsieur Boysson is a "big noise" in the Communist Movement and is, on the whole, just as bad a man as Herr Baldur von Schirach, who is now in gaol. The Bureau directs the activities of diplomatists and agents in the non-Communist countries—including, of course, here. I think that very objectionable. It is done, as I have already informed the House on a previous occasion, through the intermediary of the satellite missions here. That also I think entirely objectionable. But it goes further than that. The Bureau also directs the activities of native-born Communists, and that I think quite intolerable. Here we have a hostile and alien Power ordering about people in this country—and it is still our country—again by abuse of diplomatic privilege. Nothing of the kind has ever prevailed here before, and I sometimes wonder how much longer it is to go on.
In passing, may I say that there is one thing that may not only interest but amuse your Lordships. That Bureau also spends some of its time in drawing up black-lists of the people who are to be "bumped offs" when the opportunity offers—that is, principally, in the event of war. Your Lordships will no doubt take that no more seriously than I do. At the same time, it is perhaps right to mention in passing that I have personally known people who have been threatened with being put on that list unless they desisted from their anti-Communist activities; and, furthermore —again I mention this without any particular emphasis—I have also known people, when I have been collecting anti-Communist information, who have shown distinct signs of being afraid to talk. Intimidation in this country is in its infancy, but it would be unwise to
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overlook entirely the fact that the beginnings are there.
These communised States are perfectly logical: they behave to us as if they were enemy States—and that is exactly what they are. We on our part must realise that we are at war—the greatest war in history. There is no abiding accommodation between democracy and any totalitarian form. I do think it is most necessary that all British Socialists should take warning from the bitter lesson of their Continental brethren. These men were bemused and betrayed by illusionists who thought accommodation was possible. So Socialism was murdered. This country is full of illusionists, and so is the Commonwealth. For example, I noticed a short while ago that it was reported in the Press that Mr. Chifley had said that Communism was only another philosophy. Such ignorance in high places is truly dangerous. The plain fact is that the cold war is being waged without quarter by the Communists, and is hardly being fought at all by us. It never will be properly fought so long as we are handicapped by this damaging farce of technically correct relations. So long as we believe in that nonsense we shall always be fighting with one hand tied behind our back. Therefore, we shall not win the cold war, and he who does not win, loses—and how! We are naturally perturbed by the Fuchs case, but it would be the height of unwisdom to see in that only a slip on the part of M.I.5. What is fundamentally wrong, and what needs to be corrected, is the whole national attitude and frame of mind: the frame of mind of laissez faire and "slop along" in the nation at large, which often seems to be frighteningly reminiscent of public opinion in the Hitler days.
I shall begin my illustrations with the B.B.C., which ought to be, but is not, the most potent weapon in the cold war. A short while ago the B.B.C. refused to cleanse itself of Communists, and consequently Communists have remained. There is no mystery about it: the B.B.C. admit their presence, and I naturally know some of the offenders. On the other hand—I want to be strictly fair throughout everything I say to-day—we must be careful not to exaggerate this. The percentage is small but, as the Lord
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President has also observed, the Communists always manage to arrogate to themselves a degree of influence out of all proportion to their real numbers. So the Communist taint peeps forth from time to time, and particularly, as one might expect, in the Russian section. That section is in rather a poor way—again I do not exaggerate—both as regards personnel and performance. I do not for a minute say that all its output is bad; but some of it is unhelpful, and some of it is harmful. Moreover, it is not technically well equipped for its job. Some of its members do not speak Russian at all, others have learnt through books, and others speak with faults of grammar and accent. Again that is not a universal application. I have a number of affidavits from highly-placed professors of the Russian language deploring these low standards. Why are they tolerated? I think for the same reason as has permitted the continuance of a series which has in the main been definitely harmful, called "Soviet Views." As one would expect, "Soviet Views" are inevitably hostile to this country—indeed, they contain large chunks of Pravda. So that virtually, on occasion, we are carrying out Soviet propaganda.
Another shortcoming that I lay to the charge of the B.B.C. is that they have failed to make adequate use of the large number of most distinguished exiles that we now have in this country. That is a subject on which I may have more to say on another occasion. I consider, and many people with me, that the fundamental attitude of the B.B.C. is feeble. Could anything have been more mistaken than to give the Communists broadcasting time during the Election? You may think that all very well from the domestic point of view, but nobody in the B.B.C. seems to have paused to reflect what an extraordinarily discouraging effect that would have on people in Eastern and Central Europe. They naturally think we are not serious in this fight. But we are fighting for our lives, though the B.B.C. do not seem to realise it. This country is full of exiles who have lost their political lives precisely because they allowed the Communists to broadcast too much. What, then, are they to think of us if we give a free run to the Party of terror and persecution? They think we are crazy. In a word—and I do not want to dilate on this subject too much—what

613
is fundamentally wrong there is that the B.B.C. share the delusion expressed by Mr. Chifley, that Communism is just another philosophy. Either they must change that notion or we must change the management. We cannot afford that luxury nowadays.
I pass to another infected field—that of education. I raised that matter here on December 7 last year, when I quoted the claim of Communist teacher Mr. C. G. T. Giles—a fellow Etonian, I regret to say —who affirmed that there were 2,000 active Communist teachers. When I did so, the noble Lord, Lord Crook—who I am sorry to see is not in his place to-day —queried my figure. Of course, I should not wish to split hairs with anyone. That is a round figure—it may be rather less and it may be rather more. In any case, the important point to retain is that it is an exceedingly moderate figure which represents 1 per cent. of the teaching profession. I am the first to congratulate the 99 per cent. that went not astray, and to testify that the vast bulk of the teaching profession in a is country is entirely sane and sound. At the same time, your Lordships would be unwise to assume that that overall figure of 1 per cent. invariably holds good. For instance, it may not have escaped the notice of your Lordships that the percentage of teachers among the Communist candidates at the Election was very largely in excess of 1 per cent. In any case, there are areas where that figure is not only exceeded, but markedly exceeded. I think you would find that to be the case, for instance, in Birmingham University, where there is certainly a Communist clique which seems able to indulge in rather a curious performance to which I shall allude later.
Now when I asked that question about Communist teachers, I received an evasive and non-committal answer. I am not in the least criticising the noble Lord who gave it; I rather commiserate with him on the text provided by his scribes. That answer said, in effect, that it did not matter if teachers were Communists, provided they were Communists out of school. I really do not know whether anybody but an idiot would expect Communist teachers to get up in class and scrawl across the blackboard "I am a Communist," or that anybody but a tom-fool would suppose there were not a dozen different ways of inculcating Communism
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otherwise than by preaching and teaching Stalinism in class.
We are facing years of increasing grimness, and none can tell whether they will culminate in a Soviet war of aggression. I can only say that in my considered judgment the odds are on such a development rather than against it. In all my life I have never seen any nation preparing for war quite so overtly as the Soviet Union, And I would add that I have in the past proved a fairly accurate prophet about these matters. Therefore, it seems to me that democracies are bound to take some elementary precautions. I ask for no persecution. There are nine and sixty ways not only of constructing tribal lays but of enabling Communists to earn a livelihood, but I do not think that teaching and broadcasting should be among them. That is too great a risk, seeing the times in which we live. I venture to say explicitly that if we do not insist upon Communists and fellow travellers being cleared out of the B.B.C., we shall not be acting on the mandate of the British public, which has been clearly expressed.
I come to another field in which there is some infection, and that is the Church. I should like to make it plain from the start that I am not in any way criticising the Church. What I am trying to get at is the apathy of public opinion in relation to offences when they are committed: that is my constant theme throughout. I always proceed by concrete examples, and therefore I will begin in that way. I have protested several times in the past, but in vain—it has aroused no interest at all—against the activities of a body that called itself the Council of Clergy and Ministers for Common Ownership. Formerly known as the C.C.M.C.O., they have now changed their initials to the S.S.C.M., but I do not pay much attention to this Communist or semi-Communist gyration. The leading personalities in that organisation have been the Dean of Canterbury and the Bishop of Bradford. There are, of course, a considerable number of other members, and for years they have been writing a series of pamphlets called Magnificat. The first was by a particularly murderous priest called Canon Gilbert Cope, in which he openly

615
advocated the killing off of his political opponents and the distribution of the loot among the boys who did the job. That pamphlet received a glowing preface from the Bishop of Bradford. Anybody who knows anything about this man Cope must have known that he was a potential killer, and yet somebody in Birmingham University has been able to secure him a job under the auspices of the university. That seems to me remarkable, because to profess oneself a Christian in one breath and in the next to advocate the liquidation of people who disagree with you on a point of economics is the most revolting hypocrisy and nothing else.
The second pamphlet in that series was contributed by the Bishop himself. In it he says that "Communism in Russia is delivering the message of Christ." I do not know whether that message is supposed to be delivered to the 15,000,000-odd souls who are undergoing forced labour. Not much attention was paid to them. There are other phrases of the same kind in the pamphlet, which has a distinct Communist implication. Some go a great deal further. No. 3, for example, and, for that matter, No. 17, were both written by a priest called Mr. Stanley Evans. No. 17, by the way, is called Christians and Communists, and I need hardly say (and this is characteristic) that there is much more about Communism in it than about Christianity. Now this Mr. Evans is the man who scuttled out to Budapest at the time of the trial of Cardinal Mindszenty, and then scuttled back to tell us all that it was a jolly good show; that the Cardinal had jolly well got what he deserved, and that all the Hungarian Communists were jolly good fellows. That was greeted by the British public with relative silence. In fact—I may have been unlucky—mine was the only voice I heard raised in fury. This man Evans is so far—I can find no other word—prostituted to Stalin that he went out to Russia and said that there was more religion in Russia than in his own country. Again silence.
Mr. Evans has an equally tainted colleague called the Reverend Mr. Chambers. And when the fifteen Bulgarian pastors were being destroyed the Reverend Mr. Chambers scuttled out to Sofia, and then scuttled back again to say that that also was a jolly good show, that
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the pastors had got what they deserved and that all Bulgarian gangsters were jolly good fellows. Again, there was dead silence, I noticed no reaction in the Press or from the public at all—in fact, I knew nobody but myself who was really furious. Before I leave this Magnificat series I would monition one more, No. 9, by a gentleman called the Reverend Mr. Worlledge, in which he said that Marx and Lenin are the instruments of God. Well, my Lords, it is news to me that such instruments are usually picked from among people who deny and assail God. I should have thought that that was most unusual; and in any case I do not much care to see God degraded to the position of an antiquated and ferocious economist. But again there was dead silence from the public.
I will quote an even more extravagant case. On February 12 there was a Communist rally at Harringay, addressed by Mr. Harry Pollitt. He said:
"You must learn to hate, hate, hate, and if you don't hate you know nothing of Communism."
He was followed by the Dean of Canterbury who said, "This is the Gospel of Jesus
Christ." But I thought that if there was one thing on which we were pretty well united, it was this: that we have regarded Christianity as something in the nature of what Whittier called
"The silence of eternity interpreted by Love."
But along comes the Dean and says it is hullabaloo interpreted by hate. It is hard on us Protestants to be saddled for keeps with that evil charlatan and his acolytes. In the Catholic Church, I believe—and perhaps, if I am wrong, some Catholic noble Lord will contradict me—that such people would be excommunicated. But we are handicapped by old rules and also, I think, by the public apathy, the weakness of the public stance, to which I have already alluded. It is that weakness which leads many Churchmen and Socialists still to look upon the Communist as only some slightly erring brother, and which leads Liberals and Conservatives also to say in my astonished presence that some particularly bad fellow-traveller is "not a bad chap really at bottom, you know." These are luxuries we cannot afford.
But I am drawing my illustrations from clerical circles and I will return to them.

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My next instance is concerned with an episode on March 9, when the Reverend Leslie Weatherhead said publicly that we ought to send their Royal Highnesses, Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh, to Moscow, to convey to Stalin our sincere good will. And that passed in the Press without a murmur! It was a most impertinent and ignoble suggestion. Stalin has broken forty treaties aid has killed off thirty million people in peace time. One would have thought it a little more fitting for Mr. Weatherhead to wish to express good will to the victims and their surviving relatives. But they, again, passed almost unobserved. That is the tendency—to look the other way. In that, we are—some sections of us at any rate—rather like the Swiss who only the other day refused General de Lattre de Tassigny permission to go into Switzerland because he was going to assail Communism there.
This is a struggle in which there is no neutrality: there is only courage or cowardice. We sing "Fight the good fight with all thy might"—one of the finest relit ions songs ever written—but I do not think we do. We fight at half strength, with a sort of shandy-gaff faith in our own case. In any case, this half-heartedness leads to some remarkable laxities in other directions. I will begin with one of the less important examples. Who was it who sent the venomous, treacherous Mr. Johnson to Moscow to look after our futile paper, British Ally? And who followed him up with the callow Mr. Dalgleish, bursting with uninvested calf love? And who was it sent to Prague the shapeless Miss Rides—one of the most unprepossessing exports that I have ever seen? And, alas! not unrequited. And who was it who sent the amorous and convertible Mr. Bidwell to Warsaw? How he bit his own country, like all the others This was not a case of Samson and Delilah; it was a case of Delilah and Little Tich. But who picked Little Tich? Somebody must have been responsible. It is perfectly human to make mistakes. One in a way is all very well, but to go on making them like this seems unpardonable. It is gross carelessness which we cannot afford.
While on this topic, perhaps I may be allowed to make a constructive suggestion. I think we should be well advised now to save the taxpayers money by cutting out that paper British Ally. It
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does no good. The Russians are already cutting its circulation for us, and in any case it goes only to chosen recipients and they probably, to save their skins, stuff it straight into the wastepaper basket. So I. say to the Government: Cut it out, and in return crack down on Tass and the Soviet Monitor; and you will certainly save on the swings a hundredfold what you have not lost on the roundabouts. And do not stop there. There are other iron curtain agencies here which spend their time in sending out the most venomous misinformation about this country. We should make it clear that we will not tolerate this. Alternatively if you feel that you mast go on with this futile British Ally for heaven's sake send out men skilled and seasoned in cold warfare, and not pink pups who have not even had distemper.
It is still too easy to get into this country. I have the greatest sympathy with our authorities on this score. If they are too easy-going they get into trouble with people like me, for example; and if too stern, they run into tragedies like that ii which an unhappy Yugoslav recently cast himself from an aeroplane rather than return home. It is a terrible dilemma. But I must none the less maintain that charge to some extent; and as I always proceed from concrete things I will give your Lordships one case of less importance. There was in this country a Hungarian called Mr Zoltan Roman. He was a prominent member of the Hungarian Communist Party. I should have thought on the whole that he was a rather doubtful quantity. He held a prominent position in the Hungarian textile department, and then he was made Minister to Pakistan. Instead of proceeding via Alexandria he elected to go via London, a distinct loop. He then opted to stay here. He stayed wits another Hungarian called Mr. Imre Molnar, who was also a prominent member of the Hungarian Communist Party. They obtained permission not only to stay but to work. Mr. Roman, anyhow, was recently travelling, I think, for the Compensation Trading Company of 140, Park Lane, which was founded by Messrs. Robert Benson and Lonsdale. They said apparently that they had been allowed to stay because they had been vouched far by people in the Board of Trade. That may be all right, but what I would like to know is who vouched and on what

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authority?—because I have a very good and legitimate reason for asking.
There are in this country a number of Hungarians who are passionately anti-Communist and pro-British to their fingertips. I cannot find one of them who was consulted in this matter, and those that I have consulted have told me that, if they had been consulted, they would not have recommended that course. I think we are wrong to neglect elementary precautions of that kind. The planting of agents under the guise of apostasy is the oldest and simplest trick in the world. The Russians make a practice of it. In fact, they have schools for teaching ostensible apostates. I know the addresses of many of them. One was at the former Hotel Imperial in Carlsbad. They send ostensible apostates wholesale into Western Germany and they push them in also elsewhere. I am the last person in the world to wish to refuse asylum to any genuine refugee from any form of totalitarianism, but I think we have reached a point when we must be cautious about those who, having made a good thing out of Communism, ostensibly change their minds. Even then I would be prepared to make exceptions in absolutely sound cases, but in borderline cases the British public must have the benefit of the doubt. Then our answer must be: "I am sorry. You have made your bed and you must lie on it, even if it should turn out to be the bed of Procrustes." While I am on this matter, I make one further suggestion. Your Lordships will have observed that in Italy very great Communist penetration has occurred by the simple device of allocating all trade with the iron curtain countries to Communist firms in Italy. That cannot happen here but, at the same time, the personnel of the trading associations, and even of commercial houses, engaged in that sort of business ought to be the subject of constant vigilance. If the Government draw those coverts from time to time I do not think they will draw a blank.
While it is still too easy to get into this country, it is also sometimes too easy to get out. I wonder how it came about, for example, that a bunch of British-born Communists—I have their names but they are of no interest to your Lordships' House—were allowed out to the Gold Coast where they raised considerable trouble. For that matter, I also
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have wondered in the past why the "Yellow" Press of West Africa was allowed to go on with those incitements to violence for so long until an explosion occurred. I do not wish to deal with that matter now. In all this, there is no sign of that stern spirit by which cold wars are won. In all the fields that I have traversed so far, there is no breeze stirring. There are only sluggish streams, and the sun goes down on nobody's wrath.
Next, I pass to naturalisation. In my official days this was the province of a section of the Home Office. I presume that that is still the case. I always said that that was too narrow a basis, and I urged an inter-Departmental Committee, with the Home Office, of course, in the chair, but attended also, at the minimum, by members of the Foreign Office, the Board of Trade and the fighting Services. That was not accepted. Of course, the Home Office do consult other Departments, but that desultory consultation is no real substitute for the permanent work of a Committee such as I have suggested. I have no complaint whatever to make of the Home Office. On the contrary, I found them good colleagues. I consulted them sometimes; sometimes they consulted me. Most of the time I was in the same position as anybody else; I used to wake up and see that so-and-so and so-and-so had been naturalised. Sometimes I knew nothing about them. Sometimes I did. I can remember at least one instance where I learned only six months afterwards that a man had been naturalised, and if I had known sooner I should on no account have approved it. Another reform I have urged in the past was brought up before your Lordships only last week—I refer to the suggestion that those who sponsor aliens should be prepared to have their names made public. I have sponsored quite a few myself without any qualms, and I am always prepared to answer in public for what I have advocated in private. I hat would have a certain effect in deterring any levity in recommendation. That does occur sometimes, believe me. There is sometimes a little too much of the atmosphere of "Oh, Schmidt or Apfelbaum or What-have-you is a very good fellow. I will get up behind him." No harm is intended. He is a perfectly

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good chap so far as they know, but it happens that people are sometimes sponsored by those who have no adequate knowledge of the roots which go back into Europe and which require considerable study. So you occasionally find your Stanleys and your Fuchses slip through the net. I think those accidents could be prevented.
Mention of the Fuchs case brings me naturally to M.I.5. Normally I should not have mentioned that Department in public. In my time I would have thought it anathema to do so, but the Fuchs case has been followed by such a spate of ill-informed criticism that from considerable experience I feel conscientiously obliged to offer a few words of sober and discreet rectification. Above all, I take this occasion of deploring very deeply the bandying about in public of the names of high officials connected with that Department. That, believe me, is absolutely dead against the public interest. That has occurred so much in this case. Only last week I heard one of the most prominent names made the subject of an exceedingly poor pun in "Much Binding in the Marsh." So low have we come ! Having said that, I venture to suggest, with very great respect, that I think the Prime Minister was mistaken in saying that we could not avoid accidents of this kind without some force equivalent to the Gestapo. That statement might leave a certain misapprehension in the public mind which I would like to rectify to-day. To start with, no comparisons with the Gestapo or any other secret police are possible. As we all know, M.I.5 has no executive power; it can only report to the Ministers concerned, and if they deem action appropriate it will be taken by the Special Branch of Scotland Yard.
We have never had a secret police in this country, and I hope we never shall. I venture to say that we have the ideal system for a free country. But these accidents can be prevented, though not by police methods; other qualities are required, and I should not be indiscreet enough to discuss in public what they are. One thing I can say without indiscretion is obvious—that a requisite is sufficient personnel and, therefore, sufficient funds. Here I am on familiar ground. Throughout the long years that preceded the war, I was the intimate personal friend of the heads of our Security Services. We had no secrets from each other, and we shared
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our apprehension at the oncoming war. When that war came it is only fair, particularly in the light of much of what has been said lately, to remind your Lordships that M.I.5 was equal to the occasion; the Axis agents were "taped," and picked up quickly.
Equally, it is only fair to this House, to this country, and indeed to M.I.5 itself, to repeat what I have already once said in this House—namely, that in the event of another war, M.I.5, through no fault of its own, would not be equal to the occasion. For every Axis agent that there was in those days there are now a hundred Communist agents. This country has been infested by hostile missions, masquerading as diplomacy, and by all the agents that radiate from them; it has been plagued by bogus friendship societies which exist mainly for spreading sedition; and it has been infiltrated by a whole host of fellow-travellers and double crossers, who present the greatest problem of all. In other words, our security services are confronted with an impossible task, and if war came, I think it more than possible that not only would they be overrun, they would be swamped.
I am quite used to having my advice disregarded—I take that all in good part but I have it on my conscience to say to-day, that if we continue to drift along as at present we may be courting disaster. If we were really wise, we should reduce all our missions behind the iron curtain, beginning with Moscow, to the level of consulates, and insist upon a similar reduction here. In that way, we should greatly diminish the area of espionage and sedition, and all the rest of it. I do not suppose such a step will be readily contemplated, but it would be in the national interest if we did it. Even that would not be enough in the case of the worst offenders. Take Hungary, for example, which has not only treated this Government with the utmost insolence but has treated British subjects with brutality that defies description. Let us make an example of them. I say, break off both commercial and diplomatic relations and let them whistle for the Western trade that they need so badly. I would apply much the same criticism to Czechoslovakia. At the very next "crack" out of the box, the next piece of insolence from them, I would apply the same medicine. But that is a digression.
I said just now that M.I.5 sufficed in 1939; but it only just sufficed because within my experience it has been the Cinderella of the services. It has been under-staffed. I wonder how often in my time I asked for just a little more help in this vital branch of national defence. There was a time, indeed, when recruiting was difficult—though I am not going into details about that. Again, I am not speaking from gossip or hearsay, but of my own knowledge of circumstances and events, when I say that I have known good men go in and come out because they did not think the prospect good enough. Perhaps I may leave it at this, my Lords: that we want the best security; we may want it badly, even desperately; and to get the best we must make security a career worthy of the best. I am happy to say that there have been considerable improvements since my time, but I doubt still whether they are enough. To my mind, the numbers are not adequate, and to that extent the Prime Minister is right. Simple sums will show that. For example, to watch a man for twenty-four hours a day requires three men working in shifts of eight hours.
Look at the matter in another way. There is disquieting information about the state of the public services. There is no reason on earth why all that information should not also be in the possession of our own authorities. Some of it may be, but undoubtedly some of it is not; and that is simply because there
is neither time, men nor money to investigate the whole of that vast field. I myself have been more favourably placed, and I say this is no spirit of blame whatever—rather would I help our own authorities to similar possibilities. But before I leave this subject, I must again say that, if the Government want the best—and believe me, my Lords, they are going to need it—they cannot have it if this unpatriotic publicity continues. On the very day the Fuchs case broke, all sorts of "know-alls" rushed into print with criticism and nostrums. I do not wish to be personal where so many offended, but I noticed in one Sunday paper an article which said that M.I.5 had been a laughing stock, and then went on to recommend something which was beside the point. That, I regret to say, was by one of the supporters of their Lordships of the Left. We cannot have that sort of
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thing if we want a good service, because men in such a service neither can nor should defend themselves. We want silence over this sort of thing in the future, and I hope what has happened in the last few weeks will never be repeated.
Other branches of our military intelligence have perhaps been rather more legitimately open to criticism—and here I can be a little more indiscreet, because a great deal of publicity has been given to an instance by the Belgrade radio, which put out a story about four British Communists who had been in our Intelligence Corps in Cairo and had gone to Yugoslavia on various missions. According to Belgrade, their names were Major Peter Wright, Major James Klugman, Mrs. Betty Wallace and a Mr. Kenneth Syers. Major Peter Wright appears to have been a military attaché in Belgrade until the end of 1947–please note the date. I have not bothered to inquire much about the activities of Mrs. Betty Wallace, but I can tell your Lordships definitely that she is a member of the Communist Party headquarters here, and this headquarters rather indiscreetly let it out last month that she was "on a job in France," as they put it—presumably connected with strikes. The last that I heard of Major Klugman was that he was an enthusiastic electioneering agent for Mrs. Pollitt. He has an editorial job on a Communist "rag" called World News and Views. That is a pretty bunch to have in our missions abroad!
I come now to the daisy of the bunch, Kenneth Syers. Mr. Syers, in the early stages of the war, was Secretary of the Oxford Regional Committee for the Education of His Majesty's Forces. Curiously enough, I heard some complaints that they were getting only Communist stuff and Communist lecturers. I was not surprised; I thought that other people might have shared that view. From there he went to Cairo, and from Cairo he went to Yugoslavia. Now he is a pamphlet writer for the Bureau of Current Affairs at No. 117, Piccadilly. As late as April, 1949–again, please note the date—this Mr. Syers wrote a pamphlet, which was published by the Bureau, on Eastern Europe. I went through the stuff—I wade through an awful lot of muck every week—and this really was an extraordinary compound of ignorance and mendacity.
As I told your Lordships, I never speak without my book. Let me give you an example of what has been served up. On page 9 of the pamphlet you will find Syers explaining what an excellent thing it was for Eastern Europe to have been skinned alive by the Soviets for reparations. That was an excellent thing for them, he said, because it facilitated the restoration of their economy. That is nice stuff to give the troops, is it not? We must remember that all this output is taken as standard material for army education. I find it hard to be tender about this sort of thing. Someone is distinctly to blame. Perhaps the kindest thing I can say is that this country is largely peopled by lotus-eaters who would invite Guy Fawkes to the Carlton Grill: "Not half a bad fellow, my dear chap, and of course he would be much more at home underground."
I cannot leave this topic without quoting one most typical instance of what I call our "national slop-along." The offices of the Festival of Britain have been
used for the dissemination of a pamphlet by a gentleman who calls himself Jiri Hronek. As your Lordships are aware, I have rather specialised in Communist aliases, and I need hardly tell you that his name is not Hronek but Langstein. He is a Viennese-born Jew who came to this country to escape Hitler, and who has rewarded our hospitality with most violent and vehement Anglophobia. He is one of our worst enemies. I can find no word to say in extenuation of Mr. Lang-stein. It seems to me a little odd that the offices of the Festival of Britain should be used for the popularisation of the works of this gentleman. I know that it is an accident, I do not for a moment believe that there is anything sinister in it—I call it just darned silly. I say that this is a typical small instance of the point which I have been trying to make during my speech so far, that what this country needs is a good shake-up. And if it cannot take that, it must take the consequences—and they will be bitter.
At last, I come to the public service. I have not time to deal with such matters as Communist penetration into the dockers' unions or the British Legion. I want to get on to my own stamping ground, the public service, in which I have spent the greater part of my life and to which I am still profoundly attached. I have retained as many contacts as
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possible. I am still President of the Civil Service Society of Authors and, I hope not inappropriately, President of the Civil Service Boxing Association. I take the greatest interest in all the activities of my colleagues, for such I still consider them to be. Above all, I have a deep and warm sympathy for that great body of loyal public servants who for long have been fighting against Communist infiltration, as I believe, without adequate support and encouragement. I hope that to-day this House will give them the praise which they deserve, because they have deserved well of the nation.
I am perturbed at what is going on in the public service. I have avoided using the word "alarm" at this stage because I must tell your Lordships, with my usual frankness, that there ate only 2 per cent. of Communists in the public service. But we always come back to the point that they have much more than their share of influence. Infiltration has been going on for some time. It has two purposes The first is probably well known, and it is obvious; it is the collection of information, which is then passed on to Communist headquarters whence, if deemed worth while, it is sent to their alien masters. The second purpose has escaped the attention of both the public and the Press, and even, possibly, of His Majesty's Government. It is to ensure the smooth running of the Civil Service in the event of a coup or, to use Communist jargon, "the transfer of power." Your Lordships may all think that that is exceedingly optimistic. So do I. But we must understand the working of the Communist mind if we are to tackle this question at all. Our own Press is often filled with speculations as to what would happen if the Russians made a drive to the coast on the Continent, and this country were then subjected to bombardment, the dropping of parachutists and so on with the result that chaos was created. It does not seem to them quite so mad to prepare for a possible transfer of power just on the off chance. Members of the first category I mentioned just now seek to get into key Departments like Defence and Supply. Their main purpose, as I have said, is espionage, and when an agent is a member of a civil service trade union under Communist control there is clearly an open channel to any Soviet authority. The second category

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keep under cover. Their instructions are to learn as much as possible about the working of the Department, to inspire confidence and so to be ready if opportunity knocks. Put more crudely, their job is to find as many "mugs" as possible (to use Mr. Morrison's word) who will say: "Cryptos are not half bad fellows."
Before 1941, Communism in the public service was kept out of sight. Hardly any members of the service were allowed to take out Party cards, but cells were formed and cell leaders were appointed in liaison with organisers who co-operated with them and kept contact with Communist Party headquarters. There were usually six to eight members in each cell; at least one in each Department. False names were used—I suppose it added a little to the excitement—and members were educated in accordance with a syllabus issued from Communist Party headquarters. Briefly, Communism in the public service followed the pattern of Communist secret societies, whose members observe and report on each other. After 1941 some more active members were allowed to come out into the open, but the majority still stayed under cover and, of course, after the outbreak of the cold war there was a natural trend back to the ban on open membership. But members were enjoined to seek promotion, to "muscle in" on good positions in secretariat, welfare, training and general establishment, and to keep open the door for others. Moreover, there was formed a body of so-called watchers, ostensibly unconnected with the Communist Party but reporting indirectly and regularly. And so infiltration increased.
I am going to give the House a concrete example in the Department of Inland Revenue. This is all the more remarkable because the Inland Revenue Staff Federation has had excellent representatives, Mr. Douglas Houghton and Mr. Callaghan, both Members of Parliament—but accidents can happen in the best regulated families. I have full particulars of sixteen Communists and 100 per cent. fellow travellers who have got themselves into good jobs in the Department of Inland Revenue. Again I am not talking from gossip or hearsay. In some cases I have actually seen the Communist Party membership cards, and to avoid
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argument or any nonsense of that kind, I have taken the suave precaution of retaining photostatic copies. In other cases I have full evidence of 100 per cent. collaboration. What they really have done is to form a chain between the junior and the senior appointments, and they begin to nourish hope of being able to exercise some influence on departmental policy. You may say that that is optimism; very possibly it is, although I am not entirely sure in this case; or again you may say that sixteen in a large Department is a small number. Yes, I agree again; but we always come back to that cliché about influence and numbers. I am not starting any hare or scare; I am just telling you of the things I know. The point I am trying to drive home to the House and the country is that the infiltration is not only reaching, but has actually reached, a point where it no longer can be treated with inattention.
Other Departments are also affected, though to be frank with the House, I find the figures and names in my possession are on a smaller, and sometimes on a very considerably smaller, scale. Nevertheless, the taint is there. There is a touch in the Admiralty, more in the War Office, and other Departments affected are Food, Education, and Health. I venture to suggest that the Government, of their own initiative and responsibility, should undertake an investigation into the state of affairs in these various Departments, an investigation which I will do nothing to prejudice. But if our authorities should ever find themselves short of material or unable to conduct the investigation to their satisfaction, I am equipped to furnish certain indications which would enable the inquiry to be conducted efficaciously. Meanwhile, the House will have noticed that I have scrupulously forborne reading out a string of names, partly because some of you might not have thought that fair at this stage and still more because it would not have been fair to the public, for that is the last way in which any inquiry should be prefaced. Nothing could be more harmful. So much for details.
I come now to the general picture, which is slightly more alarming. Before I go any further I should like to say that nothing of what I have said or am about to say has any applicability at all to the Ministry of Labour Staff Association,

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whose Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Crook, is a member of this House. Here is a happy exception, on which I should like to congratulate the noble Lord. The same remarks apply to the Post Office unions, which have generally conducted their affairs with virility and common sense and awareness of the danger of Communist infiltration. If all associations were in such good shape I might have been able to speak less seriously to-day. I take some pride in paying these compliments, partly because they are deserved and partly because I want the House to feel that I am trying hard to be entirely fair throughout.
Now for the darker side. The staff side of the National Whitley Council comprises 550,000 civil servants in fifteen organisations. In three of these organisations the Communist technique of infiltration into full-time negotiating posts has been highly successful, and it is in these posts that information is most easily obtained.
I will say a word briefly about each. In the Civil Service Union the direction is fairly solidly on Communist Party lines. In the Institution of Professional Civil Servants the Secretary-General is a man called Mayne, who is widely and firmly reputed in the public service to be the real leader of the Communist group. I can only say that in this union the position is quite unsatisfactory. The same remark applies to the Civil Service Clerical Association, the largest of the Associations, with 150,000 members. Its General Secretary is probably known to your Lordships. He is Mr. L. C. White, who is actually on the editorial hoard of the Daily Worker. Nothing could be more unsatisfactory than that. Mr. White has behind him seven full-time officers who are entirely on the Party line. These men do the negotiations with other Ministries, including the Defence Ministries. It is not only the associations who cater for the lower grades which are affected; even the association representing the administrative class has a touch of it. The whole field of Civil Service trade unions as regards headquarters officers at negotiating-level has twenty-one Communists or virtually 100 per cent. fellow travellers.
Only forty-five Communists have been affected by the so-called "purge." I hope your Lordships will never use that
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misnomer. It is nothing of the sort; it is an extremely mild measure which one might call a small security transfer. It way well intended when it started, but In my judgment and in the judgment of many others it is no longer adequate to the situation. If I may offer a word of friendly advice to the Government, I would say that they should drop it in its present form and instead we should take certain selected Departments for screening throughout—and the operative word is "throughout"—and all Communists or suspected Communists should be relegated to non-screened Departments. In every borderline case the British public must have the benefit of the doubt, because all Communists and fellow travellers are really enemy agents. The non screened Departments should set up active security units until their turn has come for screening. That is a rock bottom minimum. I hope our authorities will display some diligence in investigating a matter which is not only potentially but actually dangerous.
My own feelings are 100 per cent. with the main body of loyalists throughout who have already proclaimed their faith They have said and written that
"Communists have no place in the British Civil Service and we say to them 'Get out!'"
I am in sympathy with that. After all, as I have already said, there are many other ways in which Communists can earn a livelihood. But in the acuity of a cold war, which may at any moment burst into a hot one, it does seem folly to maintain enemy agents in our inner fortress. A few weeks ago General Billotte, who speaks with authority on these matters, warned us that we have only two years in which we can count on security. I think in some ways even that is optimistic, because no wise man would guarantee any fixed period at all. I certainly should not.
In 1933 I calculated that peace could not be guaranteed after the beginning of 1938–that is, five years. For 1933 to 1938 read 1945 to 1950–five years again. We have had them. We are very much in the same position as in 1938. We have before us a short period in which we can make ourselves sufficiently formidable to be a deterrent. But progress is slow, and the danger great and imminent. But there is one thing that, we can do quickly, and that is to

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recover the sense of self-preservation—I wonder how often before in my life I have used that phrase. That instinct will surely tell us that the first thing to do is to set our own house in order against the day of evil. I hope I have said enough to show that action is imperative.
I wish to make one other constructive suggestion. The Western Allies should get together and form a Joint Department of Psychological Warfare as an integral part of Western defence. It should be put under the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and none but the best candidates should apply. I am asking for nothing impossible. I expect no miracles, no legions of angels conjured from the clouds. I ask simply that we should do our plain and inescapable duty to the British people. I beg to move.
Moved, That attention be called to the extent of Communist infiltration into the public service and other important branches of public life in this country; and to resolve that continuous and resolute precautions are necessary for public security.—(Lord Vansittart.)
3.53 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, I feel that in making the small contribution that I wish to make to this debate it would be presumption on my part to attempt to add in any respect to the brilliantly comprehensive survey of this menace to our national life which has just been made by the noble Lord who moved the Motion. The point I wish to make is something in the way of postscript to what he has said, and I make it in the same spirit which animated the noble Lord's speech—namely, that there are throughout the Empire repercussions of what is happening in England; and in order to take an effective grasp of this problem in what is known as the dependent Empire, it is vital that, first of all, it should be grasped in England itself. These repercussions take various forms, but there are two ways in which one can look at the problem. One finds that in many respects the inspiration for Communist movements in the Colonies really springs from London—that London is the centre for a great deal of this trouble. Even in cases where the trouble is local, one finds again and again that the local Government are hampered in their efforts to deal with the menace by what is some-
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times called weakness and indecision in London but what is probably an inadequate appreciation of the real seriousness of this question—a tendency to regard Communism, as Lord Vansittart has said, as just another form of philosophy.
The noble Lord has given us a full-length picture of this problem, and it is, indeed, a grim picture. In dealing with the question, I should like to quote some instances from abroad. May I say, in a general way, that in my view, there is no room in the world for Communism and freedom: one or other must eventually win. I suggest that no Government will be able adequately to deal with this question until they see that as clearly as so many of us who have been brought into personal contact with the administrative problems which it evokes think we see it. The steady infiltration of Communist doctrine becomes perfectly easy when once the habit of individual freedom has been undermined. That is why I deplore the tendency in England to-day for personal freedom not to take the priority which once it did.
Let me give one or two instances from places as wide apart as Malaya and West Africa. In Malaya much has been said about misrepresentation by the Pekin radio of the objects and achievements of the Communist bandits in Malaya, and also of its reproduction in the local Press. As your Lordships are doubtless aware, the Emergency Regulations allow the local Government to deal with such manifestations in the local Press, or with local exhibitions of opinion of that kind. But what of the British Press? It seems sometimes to be overlooked that some sections of the British Press have made a point of undermining law and order and of publishing, apparently without check, the most venomous misrepresentations of the actions of British troops and British civil officers abroad.
May I give your Lordships one instance of this by quoting from the Straits Times, the leading paper in Malaya, of January 20, 1950? They referred to an article in the Daily Worker dated January 4, 1950. This article was a most venomous description of action being taken in Malaya, and it dealt with what the writer was pleased to call the "National Liberation Army." In the view of the staff of the Daily Worker, the National Liberation Army is the name which is appropriately

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given to Communist guerrillas, that collection of murderers and thugs who are at present endeavouring to disturb law and order in Malaya. Before I quote from this article, may I add that there was in this particular publication of the Daily Worker a photograph which showed some British troops carrying a dead bandit back to base after he had been killed. Underneath that photograph was printed "Troops carrying away the body of a Malayan democrat." We all know—no doubt the staff of the Daily Worker know it too—that the man in question was probably neither a Malayan nor a democrat. He was an alien, a murderer and a thug. That is what is happening from day to day in that paper—this misrepresentation of our actions. The Straits Times, in its comment, states as follows:
"The Daily Worker is the newspaper of the Communist Party of Great Britain.… The Malayan public is entitled to ask why the British Government permits such stuff to be published in London when any journalist who did so in Malaya would be clapped into prison at once. In publishing the comments quoted above, the Daily Worker takes sides against the British administration in Malaya and against the British Forces in Malaya. Any Colonial Government is quick enough to take action against any Colonial newspaper which imperils law and order … yet the British Government permits a London newspaper to publish the disloyal and subversive comments quoted above, if the British Government defends its policy on the ground that it is safe to allow revolutionary violence to be defended by a newspaper in London, whereas it is not safe to do so in Colonial countries, the British Government is wrong, for there is unmistakable internal evidence in the columns of the Daily Worker that that newspaper has readers in Malaya. … We must confess to being completely unable to understand why the British Government is allowing the Daily Worker to abuse the freedom of the Press to the extent of supporting terrorism in a country of the British Commonwealth."
I think we must all echo the sentiments of the leading paper of Malaya. It is very difficult to explain to the people of Malaya why these things are allowed
to be published in London. They know only too well the emergency which they are facing in that country. They know what apparently is not realised in London —that it is not a mere local matter; a matter for the civil authorities there. They realise that they are possibly the spearhead of the Communist attack upon the British Empire.
In the last eighteen months I have several times suggested in this House that while undue attention is being paid in
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this country to other parts of the world such as, shall we say, Africa, it is not impossible that we are losing the whole fight in South-East Asia. The sooner it is realised how improper it is to allow a newspaper in London to publish strong statements supporting our enemies in that part of the world, the better it will be for our reputation and, indeed, for our future. Of course, the Daily Worker is, not the only paper. There is a paper called the Malayan Monitor, published by Mr. H. B. Sim, which has been banned in Malaya but is allowed to be freely printed here.
May I now turn to West Africa, where Communist propaganda is being steadily spread and where Communists are being infiltrated into almost every department of the public service? Most people know that the Zik Press in Nigeria features regular articles by George Padmore, a London Communist, and even the phraseology of that group of papers betrays strong Communist inspiration. I do not propose to name in detail all the branches of the public service which are involved in the infiltration of European Communists They range over most departments, and one of the most alarming features of it is that the educational authorities are not immune. The leading firms and even the Services are also not immune. The noble Lord who moved this Motion referred to the B.B.C. I think that some inquiries into the staff and activities of the British Council are well merited. It is notorious that many European employees of the British Council in West Africa are at least fellow-travellers, if not members of the Communist Party, and actively propogate Communist doctrines. Then there is the Bata Shoe Company, which is allowed to operate there and which has on its staff several members of the Czechoslovak Communist Party. In a philanthropic way they organise educational trips to Czechoslovakia for some of their workers, and it is natural that those young Africans, when they come back, are deeply steeped in Communist doctrines. There are increasing numbers of Socialist bookshops in Nigeria. They are being opened all over the place and they purvey Communist literature ii a country which is full of book-hungry young people Anti-white and anti-imperialist literature from South Africa can be purchased openly in any town in Southern Nigeria May I mention, incidentally, that the

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importation of 9 mm. and 16 mm. films is completely and absolutely unchecked and uncensored? It is difficult to expect that this medium of introducing Communist propaganda into the very homes of Africans themselves has been overlooked.
Let us come back to London again. There exists what is known as the W.A.S.U.—the West African Students' Union. I am well aware of the high patronage that that Union enjoys, but I am also well aware that it is a common medium for the contact of Communists with West Africans when they come to this country, and I think that an inquiry into the situation would be well merited. It is no pleasure to me, nor to anyone else, to have to mention these things. I could take you round the Empire and show you how lax have become the guardians of our way of life. The pass is being sold down every alley-way of the Empire, and these things are perfectly well known to all those in authority—they know a great deal more than I am able to indicate. But, in the sacred name of "Liberty," its bitterest enemies are being allowed to undermine the principles of liberty itself amongst all the adolescent nations of our Empire. I am convinced that in this matter of militant Communism it is true to say, as the mover of the motion said, that "He who is not with me is against me." There is no middle position.
At home, with the illogical hypocrisy of our times, we take great care over the films. We label certain films "For adults only," but what do we do abroad? Apart from films, we allow almost complete latitude to the Communists to poison the minds and corrupt the souls of the adolescent millions of our Empire. It is not as if we were dealing with the ordinary educated Englishman. These are people to whom the printed word means so much more than it should mean. That is typical of the attitude of the adolescent. It seems to me—I know I shall be attacked as a Liberal for saying this—that the Press ought to be controlled. Consider this, my Lords: I am not allowed to drive a motor vehicle without a licence and without certain restrictions on my freedom; I have to show a certain amount of skill and restraint, because I might inflict bodily harm upon my fellow-citizens. But I can
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run a newspaper; I can run it to the public damage; I can ruin the souls of hundreds and thousands of people, without a licence and without any check upon my activities, in the sacred name of what is called the liberty of the Press. I suggest that the time has come when not only in this country but in our Colonies it should be recognised that there are limits to what the Press may do in the way of supporting the enemies of law and order.
As President of the Association of British Malaya, I get a good deal of correspondence about these matters and I have a very good bird's-eye view of the astonishment with which people out there regard the authorities in this country. They are quite unable to understand why more drastic action is not taken in these matters. I had only recently a communication on this subject. It says:
"The propaganda put out by the Communists is convincing to local people and effective…Their story goes something like this. 'Communism is triumphant in China with 400,000,000 people. Naturally Indo-China and Siam will soon also be taken over. Then what can the British Government do in this country? They will be swept out…The British are terrified and already admit they will soon withdraw from this country. They have even recognised Communist China in an attempt to appease them. Anyone who supports the British will shortly be without their support in return. All people who will then be marked as British running dogs will be killed.'"
If you live in the atmosphere of Malaya instead of in the safe atmosphere of England you realise how very cogent that argument is. These people go on to say:
"It is clear that we must give up the idea that this is a local affair—a matter for the civil power. It cannot be run on any less drastic lines than any other war. The object should be victory complete and absolute, and the means employed determined and drastic. There is no propaganda so effective as the vigorous use of overwhelming power. Then, when victory is gained, is the time to be magnanimous and meticulous, not now."
I suggest that that is a very fair summary, from people on the spot, of the proper attitude towards these things; and I implore the Government to look upon this as a war and to fight it as a war. It means that you cannot any longer tolerate the enemies within your gates.
4.15 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ELY: My Lords, I crave your indulgence. The noble Lord who proposed this Resolution

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referred to what he described as some Communist infiltration into the Church of England—although as a matter of fact one of the clergymen to whom he referred is not a member of that Church. I am sure that the most reverend Primate would have wished to be here; had he been here he would have been in a position to make a fuller reply than I can. But he has an engagement in Canterbury to-day, and it was only through the courtesy of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor that I knew that the noble Lord intended to refer to the Church of England. The noble Lord was good enough to speak to me for a few minutes before the debate. As I say, therefore, I am not going to make anything like a full reply to what the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has said. But there are two points that I would make. The first is that, as I expect many of your Lordships know, a report published in 1948 on the proceedings of the Lambeth Conference, dealt fully in one section with the question of Communism. Leaving aside the fact that there is an aspect of communism which can properly be called religious communism—that life which is perhaps most obviously exemplified in the religious communities—I assume that the word "Communism" was used by the noble Lord, as I am sure it was understood by your Lordships as by most people, as connoting the philosophy of what is normally called Marxism and other kindred materialistic philosophies.
If your Lordships have read the report of the Lambeth Conference I think you will agree that the authorities of the Church of England—or, I would rather say, of the Anglican Communion, for the Lambeth Conference was representative of over three hundred bishops from all parts of the world—made it clear that the Anglican Communion, as has been said again and again, believe insistently and definitely, that what is called Communism in the Marxist sense is fundamentally and directly opposed to the Christian religion. I regret that I have not studied in every way the implication of this philosophy, but in so far as I have studied it, and in so far as I have heard the statement of speakers on that side, I find it completely impossible to understand how anybody professing the Christian religion can for one moment support a philosophy which entirely and
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completely denies the spiritual meaning of the universe and in ether ways ignores what we understand, even in the sphere of what is called natural philosophy, in the ordinary sense by morals. I cannot see how that is consistent with The profession of the Christian I hope your Lordships will take from me this assurance that officially the Church of England has made, and still consistently does make, a definite stand on that matter.
However, I must turn to another aspect. Your Lordships will be aware that within the discipline of the Church of England no priest can be brought under discipline (he can, indeed, be brought under admonition but not under discipline) unless he breaks the law, whether ecclesiastical or civil. So far as I am aware, these clergymen to whom the noble Lord has referred have not been guilty of any breach of any civil or ecclesiastical law. In the Church of England we cannot interfere with private opinion. Because we happen to know that a priest is a Communist, even if we do not quite understand how that is possible, we cannot take up the stand that he must be deposed from his position. Indeed, it would be difficult to do this from the public point of view, so long as, for instance, a Communist is allowed to be a Member of Parliament. I would venture to remind your Lordships that a few months ago, when a Church Assembly Measure came before your Lordships' House and before another place, some hesitation was expressed because there was a phrase in that Measure which seemed to give the bishops power to deal with a priest for his political opinions. It was not until those who made this complaint were assured that the phrase concerned did not have that effect that the opposition to the passing of that Measure died away.
I do not wish to delay your Lordships, but the noble Lord referred to certain individuals. He referred to the Council of Clergy and Ministers for Common Ownership, of which he said the Bishop of Bradford is President or Chairman. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of-Bradford is a member of your Lordships' House. I do not think it is my place to say anything on his behalf, especially as I must admit that, although I receive a great number of publications of all sorts and sizes clay after day, as I am sure do your Lordships, I

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have never yet received any pamphlets from this particular Council. Of one or two of the clergymen who have been Mentioned I have learned only to-day. So far as I am able to ascertain, two of them at any rate do not hold any position in the Church. One of them is licensed. It is true that another has a benefice, but on my present information I cannot see that any action could be taken by the Bishop of his diocese.
There is only one comment that I should like to add. Reference has been made to the Dean of Canterbury or, as I should in this connection prefer to call him, Dr. Hewlett Johnson, because I think it is important to emphasise that his various activities—and speaking for myself I am completely incapable of understanding his mentality—are of a purely personal nature. Unfortunately, he holds an office, and not once but several times both the present most reverend Primate and his two predecessors have been successively embarrassed by Dr. Hewlett Johnson's public statements and his various activities. Just a year ago, on March 14, 1949, the most reverend Primate issued a public statement. May I be allowed to read it to your Lordships? Some of you have seen it, but perhaps I may remind your Lordships of what he said, because I think the statement summarises the attitude that His Grace and the diocesan bishops take up towards these matters, and expresses the position we are in. The statement was as follows:
"In December, 1947, I found it necessary to issue a statement dissociating myself from the politicial opinions and activities of the Dean of Canterbury. None the less, it has recently been supposed by many people in Canada and the United States of America, during the Dean's visit to those countries, that he speaks for the Archbishop of Canterbury or with his approval. I therefore repeat that the supposition is entirely incorrect. In his public utterances upon current affairs the Dean speaks, and indeed claims to speak, only for himself, and not at all for me or for the Chapter of Canterbury Cathedral or for the Church of England. It is a matter of great regret that the Dean should advocate views which are so insensitive to the true facts of the situation. Since it is frequently asked why the Dean is not removed from his office because of his opinions, I must say first that for removal from office the law requires trial and conviction in some civil or ecclesiastical court and that the Dean has not rendered himself liable to a charge in either court. Secondly, in this country we greatly value the
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right to freedom of speech and the law is slow to curtail it, even when it proves inconvenient, irksome or hurtful. Its suppression is one of the grave charges against those totalitarian and police states which enjoy the Dean's confidence."
In conclusion, I will add only that with what the noble Lord has said in proposing this Motion about apathy and a general dullness I have every sympathy. Many of us in this connection—and also, if I may say so, in another connection, with which I am more familiar—feel that it is our duty to try to rouse people from that apathy and make them appreciate the seriousness of the present moment.
4.28 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, it is my pleasant duty to congratulate the right reverend Prelate on an interesting and apposite maiden speech. We in this House, where from time to time we pass or approve legislation dealing with the Church of England, appreciate that the disciplinary powers of the bishops in the Church of England are extremely limited. Indeed, I think it is probably a great deal harder to remove a clergyman in the Established Church than it is to remove even an established civil servant!
That, however, was not quite the gravamen of the charge that my noble friend Lord Vansittart brought. Nor, if I may say so, is it completely dealt with by expressing a moral or ethical opinion on Marxian materialist philosophy. That is the gospel and the common form of Communism to-day, but, after all, the danger of Communism to-day is not just this sterile Marxian economic philosophy. It lies in the active hostility of the leading Communist country and its satellites to this country in steps that in any other century, or indeed in any other decade, would have been tantamount to war. That is the danger—that and the way in which Russia and her satellite States carry out their materialist philosophy. If they confined that philosophy to an unethical process and an extremely unsuccessful process of nationalisation, we should not be so much concerned with it. But what they do is a great deal more serious and a great deal more un-Christian than that. What they do is to murder millions of people and put many more into forced labour camps. Nobody can pretend that there could be anything, not only more unethical but more un-Christian than that. That is why I think we who are lay members of the Church of England feel

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anxiety when we read speeches made by the Dean of Canterbury, Dr. Hewlett Johnson—let us call him Dr. Johnson, although again that is rather an insult to another epoch—passed almost without comment.
My noble friend Lord Vansittart referred to a number of other priests of the Established Church, and some apparently not of the Established Church. I am bound to say that I have never heard of any of them, nor have I read any of their utterances; but I have not as complete an anthology as he has had prepared for him. Dr. Johnson, however, stands on a wholly different footing. He receives a wide publicity—in my view, a great deal more than he deserves. I do not say that he has any influence n this country, but, unfortunately, he has an extremely wide public outside it. I must honestly say that I considered the statement made by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and quoted by the right reverend Prelate, rather a moderate rebuke. And, if I may say so with great respect, I think it would be helpful to what is after all the common cause of us all, if not too much was made of some of these small fry who receive money from articles which we put in the wastepaper basket. But when from time to time these other more prominent, more vociferous and more widely reported people praise the damnable things which the Russian Government are doing to-day, then I think we in the Church of England should be happier if a more definite measure of disapprobation—it cannot be discipline—were accorded to the people who give forth such utterances.
My Lords, I shall intervene for only a few moments in this debate, which has been one of great interest and for which the House owes a very real debt of gratitude to my noble friend Lord Vansittart. There is not a great deal one can add after his exhaustive speech, but we on these Benches have felt that it would not he right for this important debate to pass without sonic very definitive expression of opinion coming from this Front Bench. It is not an easy debate in which to take part, and the more one knows about security and the security services, the less inclined one is to talk about them. I hope to say nothing to-day which could possibly embarrass either the Government or the security services in their most
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important work; and I would certainly not dream of asking for a disclosure of methods, or of any information, which might be considered to be against the public interest. A security service cannot be secure unless it is secret, and a secret service must be secret if it is to be secure.
If I may say so, having had the pleasure of working pretty closely with Mr. Hoover and with all the American authorities during some of the war years, I have a good deal of sympathy with the disinclination which he has expressed to produce his informations or files to any Committee, however responsible or distinguished. I would never be a party to asking that either House of Parliament should be given information of that kind, because one has to be exceedingly careful not to do damage to the whole system, not to discourage the supply of information which it is essential to have or, still more important, not to give information to the people who are only too anxious to get it and who can make deductions from even the most inaccurate disclosure. At the same time, Parliament has the duty to ensure, so far as it can, that all necessary steps in security are being taken. Therefore I think that perhaps there are a few things in that regard which I can usefully say to-day.
I would like to join with my noble friend Lord Vansittart in the tribute which he has paid to M.I.5, although I too am sorry that these signal names have passed into the common currency which they now occupy. But I am sure of this: that, used properly and given adequate staff and opportunity, that department and other departments associated with it will continue to give good service, such as they gave before and during both wars. But, my Lords, not only is it a question of adequate personnel; there must be the most complete co-ordination and team work. Security has to be informed by intelligence; indeed, only if there is the most complete co-ordination of intelligence and security can you really appreciate what you ate up against; and it is only by that that you can have a comprehensive policy and a comprehensive plan.
There some argument—I am not going to argue it to-day—in favour of having one single service in these matters. There is also a good deal to he said on the other side. I do rot want to argue

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that at all. What I want to be sure of is that we are making the existing system work to the best possible advantage. And that means the complete pooling of information; it means that the departments and sections, or whatever they are in the organisations, which are all in one way or another concerned in this wide field of intelligence and security, must not work in watertight compartments. If I may so put it, they must try not to be so secretive in the interests of their own security that they keep their secrets from one another. That is a danger to be guarded against, and when the Government answer, I should like to be assured to-day that they are satisfied—the responsibility is theirs; it cannot be anybody else's—that there is a really effective coordinating policy which ensures that the system works to the best advantage.
My Lords, to-day we are in a new and very dangerous situation. In the cold war which is now going on every effort is made to obtain information of the highest value, and information to-day, as we know, may be worth almost anything. We must, therefore, have security measures at least as thorough as any we had in the war. In some ways, our position to-day is infinitely more difficult than it was in the war. I know a great deal about what happened then. German attempts at espionage and sabotage were adequately dealt with. We started with a good deal of information, and our information was increased cumulatively, from a number of sources. Indeed, I think it is not too much to say that we were able almost to put our hands on every enemy agent, to scotch every enemy attempt, whether at espionage or sabotage, and that extremely little information of any value—if any at all—found its way to the Germans in the course of the last war. That was so because of these co-ordinated services all working admirably together. It was also due in some measure to the fact that the Germans, if they were methodical, were also one-track-minded, and it often happened that once one got to know the technique one found that the sealed pattern would continue to be followed, after the seals had been broken.
That is not the position to-day. Communism raises wholly new dangers. The machine is much more insidious in its operation, much more pervading, and
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there is added the extraordinary situation in which men of very great ability, for apparently no material reward but through some strange perverted sense, act in the belief that in serving the Communist cause and betraying their own country and its deepest interests, they are doing what I suppose is for them the equivalent of God's service. That is a terrible danger which we have never had to encounter before. It is also true that more and more we find that the most important Communist agents, the most dangerous Communists, are people who are not outwardly members of the Communist Party. On the contrary, they are people who carefully refrain from having an obvious connection with the Party, though no doubt their link is of the closest.
There is nothing new in that, of course. As a matter of fact, I do not think I say anything that is not tolerably well-known now when I say that when Russia was attacked and came, not so voluntarily, into the war, the Communist technique changed, and people who were Communists were told: "Do not become avowed Communists. Be the keenest workers in the factories, be Stakhanovites" (or whatever it is). "Get into positions of importance in the factory organisation, because then you will be able to stimulate the war effort for the moment, and when it is over and the victory won you will be in a position to turn against your own country." The result of following such instructions would be that the people concerned would be able to play a most effective part in disrupting what we had all hoped was going to be a united peace. There is nothing in the least new about it; that is the Communist technique which has been in operation for nearly ten years and which, as I am sure the noble Lord well knows, is going on all the time. What is the conclusion I draw? It is this. I do not ask how it is to be done, but I am sure that I speak here in the name of all decent citizens, when I say that they will not only expect but will insist upon any and every measure which can secure us against this danger.
It is a common maxim that the safety of the State is the supreme law. That is indeed true. Without that, none of our liberties is safe. You may speak of liberty of the Press, or liberty of the subject. I believe it was President

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Lincoln who during the American Civil War, when some of his friends complained to him that measures which he was taking were subversive of some liberties, replied to them: "Gentlemen, if you are too careful of these small liberties, you may easily lose the only liberty that matters." There are no powers which we would not give to the Government to-day in this connection. There are no effective steps in which they would not have the wholehearted practical support of the great mass of the people of this country. I hope that the Government to-day will be able to give us a firm and definite assurance that the safety of the State is to them the supreme law, and that they will unhesitatingly take steps to put it into practice in any way which may serve our common purpose. My Lords, I have the greatest pleasure in supporting this Motion.
4.49 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, as a very commonplace back-Bencher, who has listened I think to most of the speeches which have been made by the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, in this House, I feel that it would be candid and perhaps helpful to him if I tell him straight away just where I may be misunderstanding him and where, if I understand him correctly, I have not been convinced by what he has said. The noble Lord has detailed a large number of open, or at least very inadequately covered. Communist activities, and I gather that it is his desire that action should be taken now against those activities. My doubts arise from my fear of driving Communism underground. At the present moment it is the policy of the Communist Party—it is not for me to guess why the Party should pursue that policy—to do a good deal of boasting. The boast was made by the Communists themselves of their 2,000 school teachers. I am informed that there is good reason to believe that that figure represents a very considerable over-statement. But the curious and significant thing is that Communists are boasting of their power. If they are covering their activities to any degree at all, they are covering them most inadequately and, it seems to me, very carelessly.
I am seriously alarmed about what the Communists could do if they abandoned these comparatively open methods and
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took to secret penetration of the public services and of our public life. Let us remember that the Communist creed is singularly well adapted to secret penetration. Communism is a system based upon materialism. It is claimed by the Communist, and I believe the claim is admitted by others who are not Communists, that Communism is the most logical of all the materialist systems of thought. As a consequence of Communist theory, we have to face the fact that there is such a thing as Communist morality, Let us be clear what Communist morality is. It has been suggested in this debate that Communists are bad men. They are nothing of the kind. They are fanatically good men according to their own lights. Communist morality proposes a simple test for every action: Does that action contribute to world revolution or does it not? I should aid that there is a corollary to which most Communists attach great importance—namely, that only Moscow is competent to say what contributes to world revolution. That, of course, is where they consider Marshal Tito goes wrong. But on this point, the main point of Communist morality, I have every reason to believe that Tito is perfectly orthodox. No one who is a Communist can disregard this fundamental postulate: that actions must be judged by the test of whether they contribute to world revolution or not. Any other conception of morality is called "bourgeois morality" and is held by Communists to be false.
There is one disquieting consequence that we may draw from this survey of Communist morality, and that is that it is impossible (if I may glance at another century's problems) to devise any form of test act, any form of declaration, any form of oath that will exclude Communists from the public service. It cannot be done. Well-instructed, well-trained Communists with a perfectly clear conscience deceive over a long period even well-experienced investigators into their activities. I am not speaking without some evidence. In Czechoslovakia, and I think in other Eastern countries also, for some years the Communists have been sending their well-instructed young men as candidates to Roman Catholic seminaries in which our priests are trained. I understand that some of these Communist attempts to

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permeate the Roman Catholic clergy have been detected and the offenders expelled. When we read in the Press of the activities of a handful (and I am glad to say it is only a handful) of clergy in Czechoslovakia who have accepted the Government's church legislation, we begin to wonder whether in fact the Communist penetration of that stronghold has not been more successful than we suppose, Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, pointed out, it is the case that the clergy in question have been excommunicated.
The important point we must bear in mind in discussing Communist permeation is that the security service is designed primarily to deal, and did deal during the war most successfully, with enemy agents who are foreigners and with British people who are so weak and so wicked as to be willing to betray their country. The members of our security service have a different problem, indeed, in dealing with a considerable proportion of British men and women who fanatically believe in and conscientiously live up to the full creed of Communism. I have every confidence in the ability of the security service to do their proper work, but I do not know if their proper work is to fight faith, and that is what we are fighting. I wish that we were fighting the faith of Communism with more conviction. Last week the House discussed the prevalence of violent crime in this country and several noble Lords traced the origin of the outburst of violence to materialism in our homes and in our schools. There are many different types of children. I can conceive that one type of child brought up in the materialist atmosphere, the self-regarding child, the dull child, will come out of his schooldays a violent criminal. And I can conceive that another type of child, more intellectual, more altruistic, will seek, as young people ought to do, to find the logical basis for what he has learned to believe and he may become a Communist. I believe that accounts for the fact that in our universities Communism is recruiting from the intelligent type of student. Many young men and women who care for things of the mind are adopting this creed which seems to us so incredibly opposed to any of the values which we automatically accept.
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I should like to conclude by quoting the words which fell last week from the noble Lord, Lord Ammon. He said:
"…the acts of violence and the outbreaks of hooliganism which we deplore to-day are surely the outward signs of an inward sickness of the social order."
I would have your Lordships read for "acts of violence and the outbreaks of hooliganism," the words, "dangerous increase of Communism amongst students in this country." The noble Lord went on to say:
"We need to examine our conduct and our sense of values. We are content now to measure everything by the purely material, and we are paying for it in this way. Just as our own pound has been devalued, so has our moral and social conduct been devalued. That is bound to have its outward effect in the deplorable happenings of the present time."
I believe every word of that to be true of the subject we are discussing this afternoon. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, who will doubtless call the attention of the Secretary of State for Home Affairs to our deliberations this afternoon, not to forget also to call the attention of his colleague, the Minister of Education, to what has been said.
5.2 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, the form of the Motion on the Order Paper, to which I have to address my remarks, is in two parts. The first is:
"To call attention to the extent of Communist infiltration into the public service and other important branches of public life in this country;"
and the second is:
"And to move to resolve that continuous and resolute precautions are necessary for public security."
If I put the Motion in that form it would be rather meaningless, because the Motion would be simply:
"That continuous and resolute precautions are necessary for public security."
I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, would be agreeable to having the wording of the Motion altered to the form which I will now read, to which I have no objection at all:
"Moved to resolve that, in view of the extent of Communist infiltration into the public service and other important branches of public life in this country, continuous and resolute precautions are necessary for public security."
LORD VANSITTART: I fully accept that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I felt sure that would meet the wishes of the noble Lord. I shall in due course proceed to put the Motion to your Lordships in its new form, and I shall speak to it as though it had that form at the present moment. In that form it is plainly right that I should accept the Motion, and I have no hesitation in doing so. At the same time, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said, this is by no means an easy debate for anybody speaking on behalf of the Government. First of all, I must be careful what I say; and, secondly, I feel we have to avoid the traditional dangers of Scylla and Charybdis. I do not want to convey to your Lordships that this is not a serious matter, or that there is any justification for complacency, because I do not think there is. On the other hand, I do not want to convey to the public at large, and to our friends overseas in particular, the idea that we are riddled with Communism, and that a secret given to us will not be kept secret. Therefore, I want to try to consider the problem without going to either of those two extremes, and to tell your Lordships the point of view from which I feel we must tackle it.
In the first place, I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, in saying that this is really a question of either courage or cowardice. The noble Lord will remember that "discretion is the better part of valour," and in saying that, whatever steps we take we must not lose sight of discretion. I feel certain the noble Lord will agree with me. In trying to deal with the evil—for evil it is, in my view, and in the view of the Government—we must not fall into the error of adopting those very methods which we condemn in totalitarian countries. The noble Lord, Lord Milverton, speaking from the Liberal Benches, indicated, if I understood him rightly, that he advocated the adoption of some system of Press censorship. It seems to me that that would be a very high price to pay, and I confess that, speaking for myself, I should be entirely opposed to it. I do not believe it is on those lines that we can deal with this menace. I have always thought—and I expect most of your Lordships have—that the use of that particular corner of Hyde Park as a place
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where orators may speak is a splendid invention. I have no doubt if you listened to the speakers that you would hear all sorts of hot air blown off, and stupid things said. But I think it is probably better that the hot air should be blown off rather than bottled up. If we can possibly avoid it, let us never try to deal with this evil by adopting illiberal methods, which are entirely opposed to our tradition. In spite of that, I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, asked us to do so.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Nor did my noble friend Lord Milverton, so far as this country is concerned. As I understood it, his argument was that there is a war proceeding in Malaya, aid when there are warlike operations the Government have to he careful what kind of propaganda they allow in the country.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That, of course, is obviously true. It may well be that a different situation prevails in Malaya. However, the quotations which the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, gave were from the Daily Worker, published in London. I feel that even the Daily Worker published in London should be allowed to publish what it wants to publish, always provided that it does not break the law. If it incites to violence, or to murder, or anything of that sort, it can be dealt with. If it does not, I confess that should be very sorry to see it treated otherwise until it was demonstrated to me beyond all argument that such action was necessary. The situation might get so serious—it might get almost to a state of war, as in Malaya—that we should have to take drastic steps.
I feel the same way about Dr. Hewlett Johnson. As a humble member of the Church of England, I confess that I find his work and his speeches very unpalatable. At the same time, though I dislike and disapprove of them, I am glad he has the right to voice his view, because I think it is important that we should not prevent free expression of opinion. I do not believe that by preventing free expression of opinion we eradicate the menace which we want to eradicate. It is probably better that these things should be said, provided always that they are within the ambit of the law. You cannot cast out Satan by means of Beelzebub. I feel that we had better stick, so far as we can, to our traditional methods, however

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difficult it may be. Your Lordships remember those lines from Meredith's Modern Love. He says this:
"O, Raphael, when men the fiend do fight They conquer not upon such easy terms Half serpent in the struggle grow these worms."
Whatever else we do in fighting this menace, for menace it is, let us be careful not to grow half serpent in our struggles.
The British are a very unaccountable and peculiar people. You can get all sorts of things done by them if you get them to do it themselves. You can get very little done if you try to compel them to do it. I will give your Lordships an illustration of what I mean. The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, touched lightly upon the trade union situation and the extent of infiltration in the trade unions. He very rightly said: "Do not let us be too cock-a-hoop because we have got rid of the Communists from the House of Commons. They may easily go somewhere else where they may do much more harm than in another place." On the other hand, if we had tried to take measures to purge the trade unions from outside I do not doubt that we should have aroused immense resistance and that we should have brought about a tremendous accretion to the forces of Communism, because that is not the British way of doing things. In this country if people get the impression that somebody is not having a fair deal that man has all their sympathy. It used to be notorious at the Bar that if a Judge summed up a case too strongly in favour of one side, so that the jury thought the other side was not having a fair crack of the whip, they would almost certainly decide in favour of the man against whom the Judge summed up. Therefore, we must be careful to let these things be done from within.
I am not going to trouble your Lordships with facts and figures. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, will have seen them, because they are published. I am bound to say, however, that the activity of many of the trade unions in taking steps to rid themselves of Communist influence has been very marked, very commendable and very praiseworthy. Something was said about driving. Communism underground, and I think there is a good deal of force in that. Communists in this respect are like
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that harmless animal the rabbit, which spends half its life underground and half browsing on the verdant pasture outside. I suppose it is true to say that the more you stop him getting to the pasture the more activities he pursues underground, and so perhaps it is better that he should be seen.
What about the numbers? Do not let us have an exaggerated idea of these. The numbers of the Communist Party in this country have remained fairly constant for a good many years past. They are approximately 40,000, and there is no reason to think that they are increasing. Of course, it is a fact that the edge is not
clearly defined. I am by no means saying that there are not fellow-travellers,
as we call them, in addition to that 40,000; and indeed it may be that some of the most dangerous people are fellow-travellers. But there is no sign that Communism as a whole is increasing its hold on the people of this country.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: There were 97,000 people who voted for the Communists during the General Election. The figure of 40,000 was believed to be the number of the Party, but 97,000 actually voted.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have no doubt that the noble Viscount's figurs are right, but that is about three per thousand of the electors. That shows that, hanging on to the 40,000, there are undoubtedly some fellow-travellers, and some dupes who honestly think that things would be better for them if we had a Communist Government.
The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, mentioned the question of the broadcast. The decision taken was no doubt a difficult one to make, but it was in fact arrived at by common consent of all Parties. All the Parties agreed that the matter should be decided in the way that it was, and so it would not be fair to blame the B.B.C. for it; and still less to suggest that it was due to some underground influence. It was thought right that it should be done and I am bound to say that, having listened to the particular broadcast, it seemed to me a wise decision because I cannot conceive anybody on the strength of that broadcast voting for the Communists—in fact I can conceive a good many people not casting

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their votes for them who might otherwise have done so.
I cannot go into details, but I can assure your Lordships that the services we have—which I am not going to mention —are taking all possible steps to counter subversive organisations and that we shall not permit any idea of false economy to allow those services to run down, or to prevent our recruiting the right sort of people for them. Having examined these services we have come to the conclusion that they are working very well. Of course, operating in a free country, they do so under the restraint of the law: they are not, as they are in a totalitarian country, above the law. We have not a vast network like the Gestapo, yet we have this great asset—we have public opinion on our side, and that is the greatest help that a police force or any security service can have. We invite that help, and we ask for the co-operation of public opinion. The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, did not ask for any formal inquiry—and if he had I should have refused it—but if he will convey to me, or, if he likes, convey direct to those to whom I would pass the matter on, the information which he has; or if any other noble Lord or any other person (for all members of His Majesty's lieges are in the same position) does the same, all that information will he carefully examined and screened, and the appropriate action, whatever it may be, will be taken.
It is right that I should say that I believe our services are very efficient. They have certainly proved themselves efficient in the two wars. In the last warª and this illustrates how misleading it is to judge merely by the number of prosecutions brought—we dealt with a hundred persons, but we brought prosecutions in only fourteen cases. There are, of course, many other less spectacular ways of proceeding. We refuse to allow people to land in this country; we deport undesirable foreigners; we can deprive people, if they have become naturalised, of their British nationality; we can say that any diplomat is persona non grata; with regard to British subjects, particularly those employed in Government offices, we can of course say that they shall not be employed in any position where they have any sort of access to any secret information. We have a right
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to demand that. It is not that we want to interfere with political opinion, but we may claim that no one should allow his political opinions to influence the work he does in a public capacity: if he does, then he is unfit for public office. We do not seek to proscribe opinions, but we do lay down rules for public offices. The principle we adopt is to ensure that no civil servant, industrial or non-industrial, who is known to be a member of the Communist or Fascist Parties, or to be associated with them in such a way as to raise legitimate doubts about his or her reliability, is employed in connection with work the nature of which is vital to the security of the State. We have found before now that these men do regard some other loyalty—for reasons which are not apparent to me—as superior to the loyalty which they owe to their country.
Each Minister is responsible for classifying the work of his Department as "Secret" or "Non-secret." I cannot tell your Lordships about the methods employed to detect Communists—and this applies equally to Fascists—but the procedure is that individuals are from time to time notified to the Minister concerned as being suspected Communists or Fascists, and the Minister then looks into the matter and sees whether there is a prima facie case. If he thinks there is a prima facie case he gives the individual all the information he can, consistent with security requirements; and then the suspect is suspended From duty and sent on special leave with pay. If he admits the charge, then we try to find him suitable employment on non-secret work, either in that Department or in some other, and if no such employment can be found he is dismissed. If he denies the charge he has a right to go before three Advisers who decide whether or not the charge is substantiated. They report to the Minister, who may receive or reject their findings—that, of course, is entirely his responsibility.
In order that your Lordships may have some sort of idea of the number of cases concerned, perhaps I may be allowed to say that the number involved is in all seventy-four. I am lot sure for what period this is: I think it is the last two and a half years. The figure of seventy-four includes both Communists and Fascists. So far as lie B.B.C. is

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concerned, of course the responsibility for appointing and removing their servants is entirely within the discretion of the Corporation. I am quite confident that if the Corporation thought the political views of any of their servants were responsible for swaying his judgment or influencing his impartiality they would not hesitate to get rid of him.
The noble Lord suggested that we should drastically reduce the strength of our diplomatic missions in countries within the Soviet orbit and impose corresponding reductions here on missions from those countries. That raises, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, a very important and very large question which is perhaps hardly germane to the subject matter of this debate. He gave the reasons for and against. I think one of the reasons for maintaining our present missions is that the presence of these missions is a tangible proof of our readiness to discuss any matters on which there may be a prospect of reaching an agreement. Unlike the Communists, we do not believe that the world is for ever necessarily to be divided into two irreconcilable camps. Moreover, our political and commercial interests as a world Power demand representation in all independent States. Our missions in the Soviet orbit still play a useful part in transacting normal official business, which continues despite the present political estrangement.
There is only one other matter to which I should like to refer and that is the matter of Dr. Fuchs. And in these words I do not so much address the noble Lord as I do those others, either in this country or outside, who may hear my words. The noble Lord made one mistake in his speech, on which I desire to take him to task. He referred to the case of Dr. Fuchs as though it were a slip-up on the part of the security services.
LORD VANSITTART: I beg the noble and learned Viscount's pardon, but I said exactly the contrary. I said it would be a very great mistake to look at the affair of Dr. Fuchs as if it were a simple slip on the part of the security services. I said that what was needed was a fundamental change in the attitude of this country. I made the distinction very clearly.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I must have misheard the noble Lord. I was afraid he thought that in this particular matter there had been some error of judgment, and it is because that has been suggested that I want to deal with the matter. I think, as a matter of fact, that the handling of this case reflects the greatest credit on our security services. What were the facts? In the early autumn of last year we received from the American security authorities (with whom, I am happy to say, our authorities maintain the closest relationship) a report which suggested that there had been a leakage of information connected with the work of a British scientific mission in the United States. It did not point to any one individual; it did no more than provide an opening for inquiry. Within six months of receiving this information our security service had not only discovered Dr. Fuchs as the source of the leakage but had completely uncovered his long career of espionage, and had brought him successfully to conviction at the Old Bailey.
It may be asked why Fuchs was not detected earlier. Look at the facts, my Lords. Fuchs had recruited himself. There was no time when his masters were tempting or testing him; there was no period when he was undergoing training in conspiratorial technique during which our security services might have had an opportunity of detecting him. When he first offered himself to the Russians he had all the accomplishments of an experienced spy; and for two years of his career he was in the United States, beyond the reach of our counter-espionage services. And he has admitted that for another whole year, 1946, he had made no contact at all with his Russian masters or their intermediaries. Knowing as I do the elaborate technique which this brilliant man employed, I think it fair to say that his detection, certainly in a democratically-governed country, was an exceedingly difficult task; and to bring the crime home to him was a really brilliant achievement.
Why, it may be asked, was he asked to undertake this highly secret work? May I deal with two assertions which have been made, the first in the Press and the second at the Old Bailey by counsel for the defence? It has been said in the Press that at the time of the revelations

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of Soviet espionage in Canada in 1946, the Canadian authorities passed to our security services a copy of a diary containing the name of Dr. Fuchs from which it might have been deduced that Dr. Fuchs was a spy or was associating with spies. There is no truth whatsoever in that statement. Our security services received T10 such information at any time from either the Canadian or American authorities.
The second assertion was made by counsel for the defence, and was promptly denied by the Attorney-General. Mr. Curtis Bennett said of Dr. Fuchs:
"He was a known Communist who never deceived or pretended he was anything else."
As the Attorney-General at once pointed out, Dr. Fuchs, from the time he entered this country in 1933, was never a Communist in the accepted sense of the word —that is to say, he was never a member of the British Communist Party; he did not associate with members of the British Communist Party, nor in any other way did he even appear to have any connection with it. There was nothing in his political record after he entered the United Kingdom which would have justified his employers or the security services or his own friends in describing him as a Communist. What was known about him in the slimmer of 1941, when his services
were first sought by the Ministry of Aircraft Production, was this. They had been aware of his case since August, 1934, for, as they knew, it was in that month that the Gestapo had objected to the issue to Dr. Fuchs of a new German passport on the ground that he had been an active anti-Nazi and a Communist in 1932 to 1933. I need hardly tell your Lordships that that allegation was
commonly made by the Gestapo, because from their point of view there was no distinction between being an anti-Nazi and a Communist. In dozens of cases where that accusation had been made we found it to be wholly inaccurate. We knew that in his private views he had always been to the Left—he had been a member of the Social Democratic Party in Germany—but he had taken no active part in political activities nor come to the unfavourable notice of the police throughout the whole of his eight years here. He spent these years, between the ages of 22 and 30, first at Bristol and later at Edinburgh University.
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It was in response to the highest possible recommendation from Edinburgh University that after six months he was released from internment under the 1940 General Order covering enemy aliens. The work for which he was required in August, 1941, was work of the greatest importance to the war effort against Germany. It was decided that no other person was available with such suitable qualifications. In accordance with the normal practice, the security service presented to the responsible employing Department the adverse information then available and set against it the lack of confirmatory evidence obtained cloning his residence in this country. The employing Department decided that Fuchs should be employed. Thereafter his case was kept under periodic and careful review, but in spite of that nothing was discovered which caused him to be regarded throughout his eight years" service as anything other than an exceptionally trustworthy officer.
I have mentioned these facts, not because I misunderstood the noble Lord, nor in answer to him, but because I thought it right that it should he plainly understood, both here and abroad, that so far from our security services having anything whatever to apologise for in this case—and I myself haw gone into everything—I am quite satisfied that they have every reason to be proud of the work they did and the way in which they did it. There is no reason
whatever to fear that secrets which are entrusted to our officers are the least likely to be broken. A case of that sort might occur anywhere, whatever system is employed, if the man concerned is clever and wicked enough.
For the rest, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, for that digression —he will understand perfectly well why I have made it. His object in bringing this Motion, as I understand it, was to make people aware of the danger that confronts them to-day—not to alarm them but to wake them out of any complacent slumber which they might be in. I think re is justified in some of the things he has said and I have no doubt that he has wakened many people out of slumber, complacence; or otherwise. I hope he will be satisfied with me when I say that I think it is right that there should be no complacency about this matter, and when I invite him and any

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of your Lordships to place at the disposal of the authorities any information which comes to them in the course of their daily life. That information will be most carefully looked at and scanned to see whether we should take further steps than we are taking to-day. That is all I have to say—no complacency; and, on the other hand, no panic, no hysteria. I am not saying that the noble Lord has it for a moment, but, for goodness' sake, do not let anybody think that this country is riddled with Communism. I strongly suspect that of all the countries in the world thus affected, this country is happily more free from Communism than any other.
5.38 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I shall be very brief. I have rather a guilty conscience in that, in the first instance, I addressed your Lordships' House for rather longer than I had intended. There are only one or two points I wish to take up. I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, raised the point about the British Council, because I feel that their activities need supervision and vigilance just as much as those of the B.B.C. with which I am also not satisfied. In regard to what the right reverend Prelate said about the sense in which we use the word "Communism," I am not interested in what Communism might have been but in what it is. When I use the word "Communism," I simply mean "abominable cruelty." I was very glad to hear him say, as I understood, that he considered that conduct entirely incompatible with Christianity. I valued that contribution very much indeed. I am most grateful also for the support of the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton.
As for what the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, said about driving Communism underground (and I think he was followed in that regard by the Lord Chancellor), I would beg him not to attach too much importance to that argument, because it is largely fallacious. Communists are always underground just as much as it suits them, and what most democratic countries are doing now is achieving the miracle of allowing them to be both underground and above ground as it suits them. "Let them have the best of both worlds and us the worst." I shall not be afraid of their going a little
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more underground if we have an efficient Intelligence Service, as I am sure we shall have. I hope that that fallacious argument will not have deflected any noble Lord from considering effective measures.
The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack said a few words about the Dean of Canterbury, and in that I do not find myself in entire agreement with him. He said: "Let him have free speech." To that I have no objection at all. I do not in the least mind the Dean on the soapbox; but I object to him in the pulpit. I only wish to Heaven that in our Church we had some means of ridding ourselves of these, I will not say "troublesome priests," but rather disgraceful priests. Perhaps some such power will be taken to do so. But even if we get rid of the Dean as a priest, I do not for a moment suppose that that would check his inexhaustible "gab" at the Hyde Park Corner or somewhere like that—nor do I want to stop that.
I agree fully with what the noble and learned Viscount said about the trade unions. The effort that they have made is exceedingly creditable. I think it would be unwise on his part, however, to argue too much on the basis of figures. Figures are extremely fallacious. He mentioned 40,000 fully paid up members in the Communist Party. I suppose nobody imagines for a minute that the Daily Worker is run by 40,000 "bobs or half-crowns, or anything like that; it requires much more than that. I am afraid that Communist instructions are largely, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said, to remain underground. Those instructions still remain very largely in regard to members in the public service. So do not argue from figures; you will go wrong if you do. Let me give an example in another sphere. If there were an Election tomorrow in France on anything like a sensible electoral basis, the Communists would probably lose a hundred seats, and yet they would still be immensely powerful in the country. It is a slightly misleading argument, and I wanted to issue a warning against it.
For the rest, the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack seemed to attach a little more confidence to the good judgment of the management of the B.B.C. than I do. He said that if there were any Communist influences there he

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was sure that the B.B.C. would clear them out. I am afraid I do not think so. I have little further comment to make, except that do want an investigation into the present state of the public service. Naturally I shall be ready, as I have said, to help in that inquiry. I hope that this debate will serve to implant in the minds of both the B.B.C. and the British Council saner and healthier views. I do not wish to detain your Lordships any longer, having already trespassed for so long on your patience. Therefore I venture now to withdraw my Motion and to move it in its amended form.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Moved, That in view of the extent of Communist infiltration into the public service and other important branches of public life in this country, continuous and resolute precautions are necessary for public security.—(Lord Vansittart.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911, and read 1a.
WEAR NAVIGATION AND SUNDERLAND DOCK BILL [H.L.]
King's consent signified, and Bill reported, with Amendments.

LEYTON CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the Order made on the 14th instant discharged, and Bill committed.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes before six o'clock.