Sitting of 15 March 1950

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
KING'S SPEECH

  ANSWER TO ADDRESS
  THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Mr. POPPLEWELL) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will now proceed to read the titles of the Private Bills set out for consideration this day.
Sir Herbert Williams: On a point of Order. I do not know whether you are aware, Mr. Speaker, that most hon. Members present did not receive notice of today's Private Business. It was not distributed with the ordinary Papers and unless an hon. Member happened to know there was Private Business, or inquired at the Vote Office, he would be unaware that there was Private Business to be transacted. It is desirable, I submit, for this practice to cease and that we should revert to the pre-war practice.
Mr. Speaker: I should have thought that in the case of all Bills to which objection was taken hon. Members were present yesterday and would know for what day they had been put down.
Sir H. Williams: There are several Bills down today which were not mentioned yesterday.
Mr. Erroll: Further to that point of Order. I used to receive such Private Business information in the last Parliament, but it has been discontinued in this Parliament and I was not invited to renew my subscription to it.
Mr. Speaker: There was some difficulty yesterday. Objection was raised, but nobody knows from where the objection was raised. If hon. Members would stand up one could know and the various agents could find out what the objection is. As far as I know there is no objection whatsoever to this list and I cannot see that it is out of Order.
Sir H. Williams: I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that my point has not been made clear. When they arrive here hon. Members are entitled to know what business is being transacted. If we do not receive such a document with our other Papers we cannot be aware that there is any Private Business to be transacted at all.
Mr. Speaker: In the last Parliament, if any hon. Member was interested in Private Business he could ask at the Vote Office and there he could obtain a copy. It is a waste of printing and everything else to circulate it all round, because very few hon. Members are interested in Private Business. If they are they can ask at the Vote Office. That was the procedure laid down in the last Parliament.
Mr. Arthur Colegate: Further to that point of Order. One is not always aware of what one may be interested in. A Member cannot say beforehand, unless he has seen the Order Paper, what Bill is coming up, and some of these Bills raise very important points of principle. There are very strong feelings on one or two of them here. Surely it would be quite simple to announce these particulars on the Order Paper of the day.
Sir Ralph Glyn: I think it will be within the recollection of the House that before the war it was common practice to circulate a list of Private Bills with the ordinary Papers. I believe that system was abolished during the war for economy reasons, and because of what was done with Private Business. Could we revert to the pre-war practice of circulating these notices of Private Business?
Mr. Speaker: That was the procedure in the last Parliament, which was agreed on all sides. I have no doubt it can be arranged through the usual channels. So far as we are concerned, we are quite agreeable. There was a difficulty before about the shortage of paper, but it was arranged that anybody who wanted

1053
notices of Private Business could, on arrival here, always ask for them at the Vote Office. Hon. Members could always put down on the demand papers that they wanted notices of Private Business. If they did not put it down on the demand paper, but wanted the notices, they could go to the Vote Office and ask for them.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: May we take it then that we can raise this point and discuss it with the usual channels, taking into account, of course, any extra expenditure that this would involve, and that if an agreement can be reached you would be ready to approve of it, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: I am quite agreeable. This procedure was adopted before for the general convenience of hon. Members. I am quite prepared to consider it.
Mr. Driberg: Is it not also a matter for the Select Committee on Publications and Debates (Reports)?
Sir H. Williams: You mentioned, Mr. Speaker, the demand paper; but notices of Private Business are not mentioned in the demand paper.
Mr. Speaker: I cannot be cognisant of everything. I cannot read every paper that comes before the House. However, I am quite prepared to look into this matter to see what can be arranged.

AYCLIFFE DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION (DISTRICT HEATING) BILL
To be read a Second time Tomorrow.
BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION BILL
To he read a Second time Tomorrow.
MID SOUTHERN UTILITY BILL
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners.
OLDHAM EXTENSION BILL
To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next.
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners.
SUNDERLAND EXTENSION BILL
To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next.
ETON RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
ILFORD CORPORATION (DRAINAGE) BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.
PORT OF LONDON BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.
THAMES CONSERVANCY BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MALAYA

    Anti-Bandit Operations
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) if he will make a statement on the progress of the anti-Communist campaign in Malaya;
    (2) how many volunteers have joined up in the anti-bandit month scheme in Malaya; and how many of them were Malay, Chinese and Indian, respectively.
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can give any indication of the results up to date of the anti-bandit month in Malaya; and whether he can make any general statement about the progress towards peace and security in that territory.
    The Minister of State for the Colonies (Mr. John Dugdale): During the last three months there have been over 700 operations by the security forces against terrorists, whose total losses since the start of the emergency are now 1,115 killed, 358 wounded, 644 captured and about 350 surrendered.
    The anti-bandit month (which began on 26th February) has mobilised nearly

    1055
    half a million volunteers of all communities in a concerted and intensified effort in support of the offensive operations against the terrorists. These volunteers are helping with resettlement of squatters, and the closing of bandit communications and sources of supply. This civilian effort, which is warmly supported by the leaders of all the racial communities and by the trade unions, will, of course, not end the emergency but will, I hope, bring the end appreciably nearer. The violent reaction of the terrorists to anti-bandit month was shown by the recent increase in the number of bandit attacks, which have been marked by such tragic incidents as the indiscriminate shooting of civilians in a cinema tent, and the burning down of a village whereby 1,000 people were made homeless. These savage attacks may continue, but the Malayan peoples have shown that they are more united than ever before in their determination to rid their country of the remaining gangs of terrorists. Their courage and endurance are worthy of the highest praise.
    Mr. Gammans: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the second part of my Question No. 9? Is he aware that the number of attacks has gone up considerably since we recognised the Communist Government in China?
    Mr. Dugdale: Taking the second part of the supplementary first, I think there is no connection whatever between the two things—none whatever. With regard to the first part of the supplementary, no break-down into racial groups is available. but all races are, in fact, helping in the anti-bandit campaign.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Why is it only at this late stage that it is decided to send out additional troops in the aircraft? If they are necessary now, were they not necessary a month ago?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. It has been decided, after having seen how far the anti-bandit campaign has gone and what degree of success it has had, and seeing the difficulties, that it would be well to send out this extra brigade. This brigade will in fact enable those troops who have already done such gallant work to have some rest and recuperation, which are necessary for them after this campaign, and would not have been necessary a month or two months ago.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is the right hon Gentleman really satisfied that these additional reinforcements will be all that will be required? We cannot forget that on a previous occasion when we pressed for reinforcements to be sent we were told that they were quite unnecessary, and that then within a month or two they had to be sent. Will the right hon. Gentleman go into it very carefully to see whether these additional reinforcements are the final requirements in Malaya?
    Mr. Dugdale: Yes, Sir. Naturally, it is gone into very carefully. We are satisfied that they are the final requirements.
    Commander Noble: Could the right hon. Gentleman say how many there are now in prison or detention camps in Malaya, and what arrangements are being made for deportation now that so many ports are closed in China?
    Mr. Dugdale: I could not say the exact number without notice, but quite a number have already been deported, and they are being deported gradually as facilities are available; but it is a rather slow job.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the Minister say whether a squadron of Lincoln bombers is to be sent to Malaya? If he objects to the indiscriminate shooting of civilians by terrorists, what steps will be taken to prevent the loss of civilian life by bombing?
    Mr. Dugdale: It is our duty to protect the people of Malaya from bandits. If it is necessary that this protection should take the form of the sending out of Lincoln bombers, then the Lincoln bombers must be sent so that people can be protected.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Are we to understand from what the right hon. Gentleman said that the troops being sent from Hong Kong are to enable the troops already in Malaya to be relieved, and that the troops being relieved are to go to Hong Kong, where, I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree, the situation is. to say the least of it, also very serious?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. I did not say "being relieved" in the sense that the troops are to go somewhere else, but in the sense of being given a rest from the front line.

    Consular Representatives
    Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to ensure that consuls and other diplomatic representatives of the Chinese Communist Government have no contacts with the Communist-controlled rebels in Malaya; and whether he is aware of the widespread misgiving amongst the Chinese community that the presence of Chinese Communist diplomats may lead to a further deterioration of law and order.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: To prevent misapprehensions amongst the Chinese community and to make it clear that interference in the internal affairs of the territories will not be permitted, a full statement on the functions of consular representatives was issued recently by the Malayan Governments, and a copy of this is being sent to the hon. and gallant Member.
    Major Beamish: Does the Minister agree that whatever the pros and cons of the recognition of the Mao Tse-tung regime in China, the presence of its representatives in Malaya at this moment is most unfortunate? May I ask if they have arrived yet, and, if so, will the Minister reconsider the matter?
    Mr. Dugdale: The Central People's Government of China have not yet sought to appoint consuls in British and British-protected territories.

    Planters (Recognition of Services)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a large proportion of rubber planters in Malaya were Japanese prisoners of war during the period of hostilities and that since the reoccupation of Malaya most of them have lived largely in isolation and suffered continued hardship as a result of the operations of bandits; and whether some suitable steps can now be taken to recognise the exceptional services which have been given by this body of men.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: Many rubber planters in Malaya, in common with men and women of other classes, races and professions, have suffered serious hardship and His Majesty's Government have great admiration for the courage which all these people have shown in the face of the
    1058
    terrorist attacks. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that since the beginning of the emergency the High Commissioner, in making his recommendations for recognition of public services in the Federation, has been giving full weight to the claims of this section of the population.

  EAST AFRICA (PROPOSED JOINT COMMITTEE)
  Mr. John Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a motion for the creation of a Joint Consultative Committee of the East African Central Assembly and the Central African Council has been passed in the East African Central Assembly against the expressed objections of all the Indian and African members; whether he has received any appeal against this decision; and what action he proposes to take.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: My right hon. Friend is aware of the motion. In accordance with an assurance given during the debate on the motion the views then expressed by all the members of the East African Central Legislative Assembly have been communicated to him and will receive careful consideration. No other correspondence on the subject has reached him, but I understand that the East Africa High Commission is to ascertain the views of the Central African Council on the proposal in the motion, and it would be premature for the matter to be considered until those views are known.
  Mr. Hynd: Will the Minister of State bear in mind, in considering this situation, that whatever may be the obvious technical advantages of any such consultative steps there are very serious political implications involved? Will he give us an assurance that these will be given the fullest consideration?
  Mr. Dugdale: Yes, Sir, most certainly they will.

  TANGANYIKA (CONSTITUTION)
  Mr. John Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the proposed constitutional changes in Tanganyika; what are the objections of European settlers to these proposals; what are the reactions of the

  1059
  non-European communities; and what progress has been made by the unofficial committee of the Tanganyika Legislative Council set up to study the problem.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies by whom objections have been raised against proposals in Tanganyika for developments towards better constitutional representation for Africans; and the terms of such objections.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: The Governor of Tanganyika communicated certain suggestions confidentially to a committee composed of all the unofficial members of the Legislative Council, and of two officials, and I understand that these suggestions have become publicly known in East Africa. They were designed to secure a more representative method of selecting the unofficial members of the Legislative Council. One feature of them, the suggestion that on both the Provincial and Legislative Councils there should be joint arrangements for selecting the European and Asian members, has, I understand, met with objections from the European community; but as the committee in question has not yet reported I think that it would be premature for me to make a statement on the public reactions. No decisions have yet been taken; in fact, the committee, which, of course, has an entirely free hand in the matter, has decided not to take the Government-sponsored memorandum as a basis for discussion, but to approach the whole question with an open mind.
  Mr. Hynd: Can we expect from the Minister a further statement when the report of this Committee is received?
  Mr. Dugdale: Yes, certainly.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that statements have been made by some Europeans, amounting almost to threats, that they will impede or obstruct these proposals, and can we take it that any such statements or implied threats will be not accepted as a reason for postponing these proposals?
  Mr. Dugdale: We shall not bow to any threats, if they are made.
  Mr. Stanley: Are we to understand that these are not proposals in the sense
  1060
  that they are put forward officially either by the Government of Tanganyika or on his right hon. Friend's authority, and that they are merely a basis for discussion among the people of Tanganyika as to a new constitution?
  Mr. Dugdale: I think the right hon. Gentleman will find, when he reads my statement, that that was made abundantly clear.

  UGANDA

    Sentences
    Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to sentences passed by the Buganda Government Court on eight persons for conspiring to rebel against the Gabaka, ranging from 16 years' hard labour to 10 years' imprisonment, with the option of a fine in only one case; and whether he will take steps to secure some remission of these sentences.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: The reply to the first half of the Question is "Yes, Sir." The second half does not arise as all eight convicted men have announced that they intend to appeal to the High Court and their cases are therefore still sub judice.

    Commission of Inquiry (Recommendations)
    Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken, or are contemplated, to act on the recommendation in the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the disturbances in Uganda during April, 1949, paragraph 483, that a more liberal price be fixed for the produce of the cotton growers.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give an assurance that the prices offered by the Cotton Price Assistance Fund and the Coffee Price Assistance Fund to the African growers will be more liberal in the future, as suggested in the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the disturbances in Uganda.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: I would invite attention to the memorandum issued by the Uganda Government on the Commission's Report, which contains, in paragraphs

    1061
    37–43, a full statement of the Government's policy regarding prices. I am sending each of my hon. Friends a copy of the memorandum and I am having a copy placed in the Library of the House.
    Mr. Brockway: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the prices which the growers get for this cotton is only a fraction of price after it is in, and is a still smaller fraction of the export price? Will he encourage their desire for the co-operative organisation of both prices?
    Mr. Dugdale: Certainly; my right hon. Friend will look into this matter and see what can be done to help them.
    Mr. Rankin: Will my right hon. Friend also bear in mind that since November, 1948, the value of the Cotton Price Assistance Fund alone has more than doubled, and now stands at nearly £7 million? As the day when it may be of use to the growers seems to be getting progressively more remote, and as this is causing discontent will he keep that point in mind?
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken on the recommendation of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the disturbances in Uganda to include an increased number of educated Africans in the Lukiko.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: I would refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 8 of the Government of Uganda's memorandum on this report, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the establishment of a land bank, or a credit and savings bank, is being pushed forward with all speed, in view of the recommendations in the report of the Commission of Inquiry into the disturbances in Uganda.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: Yes, Sir.

  GOLD COAST (SENTENCES)
  Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what charge sentences of imprisonment
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  were recently passed in the Gold Coast on Messrs. Biney and Wood, of the Gold Coast Trade Union Congress and Dr. Kwame NKrumah, Dr. Renner, Attah Mensah and others of the Gold Coast Convention People's Party.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: Except for Mr. Attah Mensah, who was discharged, all the persons referred to were charged with inciting others to an illegal strike contrary to Section 6 of Gold Coast Ordinance No. 12 of 1941.
  Mr. Brockway: Will the Minister bear in mind that these offences were either committed on trade union demands or demands for the extension of political freedom, and will he therefore seek to get some remission of these heavy sentences?
  Mr. Dugdale: I cannot possibly guarantee that there should be a remission of sentences. I will certainly look into the matter, and no doubt my right hon. Friend will look into it further, but without any guarantee whatever that there will be any remission of sentences.

  NIGERIA (DISTURBANCES)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the report of the Commission inquiring into the Enugu disorders in Nigeria is likely to be available; and whether there is an improvement in the situation in that area.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: The report has not yet been presented and I cannot at present give a date for its publication. My right hon. Friend is, however, fully aware of the desirability of publishing it as soon as may be possible. There have been no further disorders in the area.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister aware that a large number of people both in Africa and elsewhere are anxiously awaiting this report? Will he do everything he can to speed this matter up, because it is of great importance?
  Mr. Dugdale: I do not think that it has been unduly long. We will see that it comes as rapidly as possibly and give it full consideration when it does come.

  HONG KONG (AIRCRAFT)
  Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in what circumstances the aircraft that belonged to China National Aircraft Corporation, based at Hong Kong, have been released to the People's Government of China; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. J. Dugdale: As the statement is rather long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: That reply is not very satisfactory, but I will put a supplementary question if I may. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that since this decision was taken the Communists have already taken away stores and equipment by junks and other boats, and also that the anti-aircraft defences have been standing to ever since the decision was made? Will he consider sending out a commission of inquiry to go into this whole matter, rather than leave it in the hands of the local courts in Hong Kong.
  Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir, I have every confidence in the local courts in Hong Kong, and I do not think that it is necessary to send out a commission of inquiry. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says that my first reply was not satisfactory, and if he, or the House, wish me to read out the reply, I will do so, but it is rather long.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: I have a very good idea of what the hon. Gentleman was going to say, and I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
  Following is the statement:
  Some months ago, the Government of Hong Kong permitted the China National Aircraft Corporation to bring to Hong Kong a number of aircraft which had formerly been based at Shanghai. In November last litigation began in the courts of Hong Kong with regard to the aircraft, between persons who may be regarded broadly as supporting the interests of the Central People's Government on the one hand, and persons supporting the interests of the Chinese Nationalists and later of American companies on the other. The object of both-
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  sides was to establish a right to the aircraft and to remove them from Hong Kong.
  On 23rd February last, judgment was delivered by the Chief Justice of Hong Kong but it merely decided that the aircraft, being in the physical control of employees who now accepted orders of the Central People's Government, were in the de facto possession and control of that Government, and, therefore, that it would be a violation of the immunity of a foreign sovereign Government for the court to grant an application which had been made that the aircraft should be delivered to a receiver appointed by the court.
  On the same date, injunctions which had hitherto restrained both sides from removing the aircraft were terminated on an application made by supporters of the Central People's Government without opposition from the supporters of the other side. I have now been informed that an appeal from the judgment given on 23rd February has been lodged, but that no fresh injunctions have yet been applied for. The aircraft are still in Hong Kong.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Courts Martial
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what report has been received from the Naval Court Martial Committee; and when it is proposed to publish it.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. James Callaghan): The Committee appointed under the Chairmanship of Mr. Justice Pilcher presented on 21st February its first report dealing with the court martial aspect of its terms of reference. The report is now under consideration and will be published when His Majesty's Government are ready to announce their decision.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the hon. Gentleman say when that will be?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir, when consideration has been given to it.
    Brigadier Head: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the Senior Service has been holding up the whole question of courts martial for a very long time, and that the matter is now very urgent?
    Mr. Gerald Williams: Does that mean that the Lewis Report will be published almost immediately as well?
    Mr. Callaghan: That is a question which should be addressed to the Secretary of State for War.

    Hospital, Port Edgar
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why the Royal Naval Hospital at Port Edgar is to be closed; and what alternative accommodation is to be provided for service personnel in the Firth of Forth area who require hospital treatment.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware of the concern caused by the proposed closing of the Royal Naval Hospital at Port Edgar; whether he will make a statement as to the position of the patients and staff involved; and what future use is to be made of the hospital.
    The Civil Lord to the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): As explained by my noble Friend in his statement on the Navy Estimates 1950–51 (Cmd. 7897), the R.N. Hospital, Port Edgar, is being closed because satisfactory arrangements can be made to accommodate naval patients at other military or civil hospitals in Scotland. The naval personnel at Port Edgar will be required for naval service elsewhere. We expect to find it possible to transfer the established civil staff to other naval establishments in the area and will endeavour to do the same for as many as possible of the unestablished staff. The future use of the hospital will be decided in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. The possibility that the Hospital may be required for civil hospital purposes is being borne in mind.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: What accommodation will there be for the naval patients to which I have referred in the second part of my Question? Can the hon. Gentleman say to which hospital he will send them?
    Mr. Edwards: This will be carried out in consultation with the regional hospital boards; we are working in close consultation with them.
    Mr. Mathers: Does the closing of this hospital mean that any decision has been taken with regard to the Rosyth naval base as well.
    Mr. Edwards: This decision has nothing to do with the Rosyth naval base.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many Royal Naval hospitals are at present in use; and how many of these are situated in Scotland.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The number of Royal Naval hospitals at present in use is 10, of which six are at home and four overseas. The Royal Naval Hospital at Port Edgar is the only naval hospital in Scotland.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Would it not be desirable to keep one of the hospitals in Scotland and close one of the others?
    Mr. Edwards: I am sorry, but in present circumstances that is not possible. I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that we do not have one in Wales either.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that this decision about the Port Edgar Hospital does, as the right hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Mathers) said, raise the whole question of Rosyth; and is it not obvious that if all the medical facilities are taken away it is highly likely that all the naval personnel who require those facilities will also have to be taken away?
    Mr. Edwards: As I have said, this has no connection at all with the Rosyth Dockyard decision. We have dispensed with the use of Port Edgar Hospital because naval patients can be accommodated in civilian hospitals.

    Sheerness Dockyard
    Squadron-Leader Burdenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to what extent the proposed reductions in civil staff will affect the manning of Sheerness Dockyard.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The only reduction of staff at present planned at Sheerness Dockyard will amount to approximately 130 industrials and 30 non-industrials in the Naval Store Department. The Naval Store supply services

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    at present carried out at Sheerness will, under the re-organised arrangements, be carried out by Chatham Dockyard. As many as possible of the men affected will be offered alternative employment.

    Chatham Barracks
    Squadron-Leader Burdenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what steps are being taken to provide new and additional married quarters for Royal Naval personnel at Chatham Barracks.
    Mr. W. J. Edwards: There are no plans for building married quarters for naval personnel stationed at the Royal Naval Barracks, Chatham, at present. Priority is being given to building at remote establishments and isolated naval air stations, where the need is greater.
    Squadron-Leader Burden: Is the Minister not aware of the need for additional married quarters at Chatham?
    Mr. Edwards: We are well aware of the need for married quarters at all places, but we have made priorities, and up to now the priorities have been the remote naval air stations and fleet establishments. The question of home ports will be considered at a later date.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Sale Area
    Mr. Errollasked the Postmaster-General if the provision of adequate telephone facilities for the Sale area can now be facilitated.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Ness Edwards): Provision of telephone service to new subscribers in the Sale area is dependent on extension of the existing exchange building and installation of additional switching equipment. The work will be put in hand as quickly as our restricted programme of capital investment permits.
    Mr. Erroll: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the improved facilities are likely to be available to these hard-pressed townspeople?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The position of the capital investment programme limits prophecies as to the future. I invite the hon. Gentleman to get the co-operation
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    of the subscribers in that area, which would enable us to connect about 200 more people.
    Sir Stanley Holmes: Could the right hon. Gentleman guarantee improved facilities to every other city, town, village, and hamlet in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Speaker: This Question asks about the Sale area, not other areas.

    Blackpool
    Mr. Lowasked the Postmaster-General how many persons in Blackpool who have applied for telephones in their offices and private houses are still waiting for telephones; and what further delay he anticipates.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: One thousand four hundred and fifty telephones were connected in Blackpool in 1949, this being 30 per cent. more than in the best prewar year. At present there are 1,744 business and 1,031 residential applicants waiting for service. The rate of supply in 1949 slightly exceeded new demand, but in certain areas additional plant is required to meet outstanding applications. As to the future, I regret that I cannot forecast when we shall be able to overtake demand.
    Mr. Low: In making that comparison is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the population of Blackpool has increased substantially since before the war; is he further aware that certain people have been waiting for their telephones for over four years; and ought he not do something to see that the delay is very much shorter than that?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I cannot accept any responsibility for the increase in the population of Blackpool. I am aware that there is very great difficulty in this matter, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am giving it urgent attention.

    Gateshead
    Mr. Moodyasked the Postmaster-General how many applicants in the county borough of Gateshead are awaiting telephones; the date of the earliest of their applications; how many of the applicants applied in that and in each succeeding year; and when he expects to provide additional telephone facilities in the area.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: As the reply contains a series of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    In the county borough of Gateshead, 892 applications for telephone service are outstanding, the earliest dating from 1943. The details are as follow:

    1943

    2

    1944

    5

    1945

    19

    1946

    122

    1947

    214

    1948

    251

    1949

    151

    1950

    39

    Total

    803

    Telephones in course of installation

    89

    Total

    892

    Additional plant will be provided this year to meet the needs of most of the area, and the provision of additional plant for the rest of the area is planned for next year. The work of connecting up the new subscribers will be undertaken as quickly as our staffing resources permit.

    Belfast
    Lieut.-Colonel Hydeasked the Postmaster-General how many telephones there are in business and private premises in Belfast; how many applicants in each of these categories are waiting for them to be installed; and what further delay he anticipates.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: There are 11,000 business and 9,645 residential lines in Belfast; 1,970 business applications and 3,334 residential applications are outstanding. There is a shortage of plant in Belfast; and, while certain remedial measures are in hand, I regret that, in view of our limited resources, some time will elapse before the outstanding applications can be cleared.
    Sir Ronald Ross: Is not the number of waiting applicants in Belfast a good deal more than in many other towns and cities of a similar character.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: No, Sir. The problem is fairly even, especially in the industrial towns.
    Lieut.-Colonel Hydeasked the Postmaster-General what steps he is
    1070
    taking to remedy the difficulty experienced by subscribers throughout Belfast in obtaining the dialling tone on automatic exchanges.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I much regret this difficulty, which is experienced mainly by subscribers in central Belfast. Additional equipment is being provided to remedy the trouble, and conditions should be much easier by mid-April.

  POST OFFICE

    Staff Associations (Recognition)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General (1) whether he is now able to make a statement as to the result of his consideration of the rules he proposes to apply to the recognition of staff associations;
    (2) whether, in view of the fact that the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association has for six months included in its membership more than 40 per cent. of the organised workers in the relevant grades, he proposes to grant recognition to this association.
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the Postmaster-General whether he will now make a further statement about official recognition of the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am reviewing the general question of recognition of staff associations in the Post Office. I propose to make an early statement in the House on this matter, and on the particular case of the Engineering Officers (Telecommunications) Association.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would not wish to press the right hon. Gentleman if that statement is really to be an early one, but is he aware that the organisation mentioned in Question No. 25 has, according to the admission of his predecessor, nearly six months ago, sufficient numbers to entitle it to recognition? Is the right hon. Gentleman therefore aware that to postpone this matter much longer will amount to a very serious injustice?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I want to do what is right and fair; it is a very grave matter for all parties concerned. I give an assurance to the House that I will make a very early statement.
    Mr. Low: On 31st December last, had the Association mentioned in Questions Nos. 25 and 26 sufficient numbers to qualify for recognition under the old rules?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I should not like to be pressed on this matter at this stage. I only want to say that this matter has been hanging about, if I may use the phrase, for more than 10 years, therefore, I ought not to be pressed.

    Folders (Size)
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchisonasked the Postmaster-General whether, in order to avoid unnecessary expense and to economise in the use of paper, he will amend paragraph 6 of the Regulation made under Section 79 of the Representation of the People Act, 1949, so as to permit folders of a maximum length of 9 in. and a maximum depth of 4½ in., to be sent by post.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The greater the size of the folder the greater will be the danger of trapping other items in the post and delaying them. For this reason, maximum limits of 6 in. × 3½ in. have been fixed in the light of experience, and I regret I cannot see my way to extend them.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in the past, and even in the 1945 election, folders of this size were sent out in many districts; and will he reconsider the matter?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Representatives of the three parties met my predecessor on this matter, and after discussing the whole problem they regarded this as the most satisfactory size for posting.

  BROADCASTING (ELECTION RESULTS)
  Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Postmaster-General whether he will arrange, at the end of further General Elections, for the British Broadcasting Corporation to announce all results as received up to the end.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: The broadcasting of General Election results is a matter for the British Broadcasting Corporation, who will no doubt take note of this suggestion.

  WALTHAM AERODROME (GRASSLAND)
  Mr. Osborneasked the Secretary of State for Air why he still refuses to give Mr. G. F. Sleight, Hillside Farm, Brigsley, permission to plough up the 100 acres of grassland near Waltham aerodrome as the Grimsby Corporation have no intention of using the aerodrome; and what steps has he taken to treat this question as a matter of urgency as he undertook to do on 16th November, 1949.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Crawley): I have now been informed by my noble Friend the Minister of Civil Aviation that he has no flying requirement for this airfield. There is, therefore, now no objection to the land being ploughed up as far as the Air Ministry are concerned, but I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture as to the best method of making full agricultural use of the whole airfield site.
  Mr. Osborne: Now that the Minister has agreed that this land is not to be used for civil aviation, cannot he give the farmer permission to plough it up immediately instead of waiting and losing this next spring harvest? We have been waiting 12 months for his decision.
  Mr. Crawley: This decision does not only affect my Ministry now; it affects both the Ministry of Agriculture and the Grimsby Corporation, who have not said, finally, that they have no flying use for the airfield. The Minister of Agriculture is now in consultation with the Corporation to find out whether or not they are going to use the airfield, and we hope that a decision will be taken in time for it to be cultivated this year.
  Mr. Stanley: Cannot the hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that a decision will be taken in time for the ploughing? It seems quite ridiculous that because of arguments between Ministries 100 acres should be wasted for 12 months.
  Mr. Crawley: This is not an argument only between the Ministries. The Grimsby Corporation were the original owners, and the statement in the Question that they have said they do not want the airfield is not true. They have only said that they will give no decision until the

  1073
  land reverts to them. The Minister of Agriculture is now in consultation with them to see whether it shall revert to them or whether it can be used for agriculture.
  Mr. Osborne: As the answer is so unsatisfactory, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

  SOUTHAMPTON MARINE AIRPORT
  Mr. Morleyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation why it has been decided to withdraw Solent flying-boats from service with British Overseas Airways Corporation and close down Southampton Marine Airport.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Beswick): The British Overseas Airways Corporation have informed my noble Friend that they have reluctantly decided to withdraw flying-boats from service as soon as land-planes are available as replacements in view of the substantial economies which will result. My noble Friend has seen no over-riding national interest which would lead. him to request the Corporation to reconsider their decision, one consequence of which will be that their use of the Southampton Marine Base will be discontinued. It is intended to keep the airport on a care and maintenance basis unless some other interim use can be found for it.
  Mr. Morley: Is my hon. Friend aware that many people prefer to travel by flying boat rather than by land planes, and that if they are compelled to travel by land-plane to South Africa they may select the Sabena or K.L.M. airlines as they are more rapid than the "Hermes"? Is my hon. Friend also aware that millions of pounds have been spent at Southampton, Singapore, and Karachi on the construction of flying boat bases? Is all this money to be wasted?
  Mr. Beswick: As far as the last part of the question is concerned, it is true that considerable sums of money have been spent, but this decision has been taken simply because we propose to curtail the losses that have been incurred. As far as the earlier part of the question
  1074
  is concerned, I cannot accept the implications in either part.
  Dr. King: Is the Minister aware that the Solent flight of boats has never yet had a proper chance, because they have never been worked at full strength, and that the feeling of the people in the industry is that landplane interests are prejudicing discussions of this very vital matter?
  Sir Peter Macdonald: Will the Parliamentary Secretary make an investigation into the nationalised air corporation which is responsible for the operation of these flying boats? If he does he will find that there is distinct prejudice against flying boats. We know who they are and we shall see that they are cleared out, because we are going to have flying boats in this country whether the Americans want them or not.
  Mr. Beswick: As to these allegations about prejudice against flying boats, I must make it clear that it was always intended that the use of these flying boats would be a temporary measure. There is nothing about this decision which will prejudice the use of the bigger boats that are coming along.

  IRAQ (OIL PIPE LINE)
  Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary or State for Foreign Affairs whether any undertaking was obtained from the Government of Iraq as to the opening of the Iraq-Haifa oil pipeline before arms were recently supplied to Iraq by Britain.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bevin): No, Sir. Any arms supplied to Iraq by His Majesty's Government are in fulfilment of our obligations under the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty.
  Mr. Wyatt: While appreciating the Foreign Secretary's difficulty in regard to our treaty obligations, may I ask if there is no way of bringing any pressure on Iraq to get this oil pipe line open, and so save us millions of dollars a year?
  Mr. Bevin: That is not in the Question.
  Mr. de Chair: While fully accepting the position the right hon. Gentleman is taking up over the supply of arms for Iraq, in view of our intimate treaty relationship with that country, would it not

  1075
  be possible for him to discuss this question of the reopening of the pipeline, because the mere hostility of the Arab League to Israel cannot for ever close the supply of oil from Kirkuk to Haifa?
  Mr. Bevin: I have discussed this with every Arab country concerned, including Iraq, and feeling is very intense. It would be far better, if hon. Members want an answer on the Haifa pipeline, to put down a Question about it and not seek information in a Question about the supply of arms. I would rather give an answer on that question.
  Mr. Mikardo: Must the British taxpayer go on indefinitely paying for arms for Iraq that are being used to prevent the British getting sterling oil?

  ATOMIC ENERGY (INTERNATIONAL CONTROL)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what official communication he has received from Washington concerning the proposals of Senator McMahon, Chairman of the Atomic Energy Committee of the United States Congress, for the international control of atomic energy and the diversion to constructive purposes of a substantial proportion of the defence budgets of all nations; and if, in view of the importance of these proposals, he will cause a discussion of them to be initiated in the most appropriate way.
  Mr. Bevin: No communication has been received from the United States Government with regard to Senator McMahon's proposals. Since the proposals would involve a financial burden for the United States Government, it would not be desirable for His Majesty's Government to initiate discussion of them.
  Mr. Driberg: While the proposal was, of course, technically unofficial, is it not the case that my right hon. Friend is in constant touch, informally as well as formally, with American spokesmen, and when a serious and important proposal is made by the chairman of the Atomic Committee of Congress, is it not possible for him, even privately, to "grab it with both hands," as he did before on a famous occasion?
  Mr. Blackburn: Is it not a fact that the United Nations have discussed this vital subject of atomic energy control for nearly five years, and as my right hon. Friend has rejected the idea of a high level conference, may I ask him what special steps he now proposes to take to see that the United Nations discuss this matter at an early date?
  Mr. Bevin: I must have notice of questions on vital international problems. I cannot answer them on supplementaries.
  Mr. Driberg: Could I press my right hon. Friend for an answer to my previous question?
  Mr. Bevin: I have talks, of course, with other Governments about this important subject, but if a proposal is made by a Member of this House of Commons involving the expenditure of millions of money, it is not the usual practice to begin discussing such a suggestion with some other Government. It must come from the Government. It would be quite improper for me to take up with the United States, officially or unofficially, Senator McMahon's proposal, which involves a tremendous cost to United States taxpayers.
  Mr. Blackburn: May I respectfully point out, Mr. Speaker, in view of the Foreign Secretary's statement, that two Questions which I had put down to the Prime Minister were, with your permission, passed over simply because this matter was to be dealt with by the Foreign Secretary.
  Commander Noble: In view of the warning which the Foreign Secretary has now had, would he at least give us an assurance that during the next Foreign Affairs Debate he would tell us something more about the Atomic Energy Commission?

  GERMAN EX-PRISONERS OF WAR (PAYMENT)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that German ex-prisoners of war cannot draw pay for work done during their imprisonment unless they return to Germany or have proxies there to draw it on their behalf, and that hardship is thus caused, especially to men married and

  1077
  settled here who have no relatives surviving in Germany; and if he will discuss with the German authorities the possibility of making an arrangement by which these relatively small but long-standing debts can be discharged here in sterling.
  Mr. Bevin: I am aware of this problem, and I shall be glad to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion as soon as the negotiations for a new payments agreement between this country and Germany have been concluded.
  Mr. Driberg: While thanking my right hon. Friend very warmly for the most encouraging reply that I have yet had on this question, which has been raised repeatedly during the last few years, may I ask him if he can give any indication of approximately how long that is likely to be?
  Mr. Bevin: I am neither a prophet nor a son of a prophet, and I hate to give dates that I cannot keep.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    Hong Kong Garrison (Wives)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Defence under what conditions members of the regular Forces can take their wives to Hong Kong; and how many wives have joined their husbands in Hong Kong since the garrison was reinforced last year.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Shinwell): The conditions under which wives may join regular Service men in Hong Kong are the same as those applying elsewhere. The main condition is that either a married quarter or suitable private accommodation must be available for the family. One hundred and fifty-seven wives have joined their husbands since the garrison was reinforced last year; a further 69 sailed early this month; more will, I hope, sail in about two months' time.
    Mr. Gammans: Will the right hon. Gentleman say, in view of the fact that a substantial garrison is likely to remain in Hong Kong for some time, whether some other arrangements can be made for temporary quarters for the wives of regular officers and other ranks of all three Services?
    Mr. Shinwell: We have that matter under consideration. There are, of course, very great difficulties in Hong Kong.
    Mr. Niall Macpherson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the same conditions apply to wives wishing to join husbands who are at present in overseas stations, and who have subsequently been transferred to Hong Kong?
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Sir, they are considered in precisely the same way.

    Air Training Corps
    Sir Ralph Glynasked the Minister of Defence if he can now supply the further information in regard to objects and future position of the cadet forces of the Navy, Army and Air Force, especially in regard to the pay and conditions of cadet officers; and what is the final arrangement for the administration of Royal Air Force cadets in the County Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations, as indicated by his predecessor on 2nd July, 1947.
    Mr. Shinwell: The Cadet Forces provide pre-Service training in military and allied subjects and also in citizenship. Several improvements in the conditions of service of Cadet Force officers have recently been introduced. These officers may now receive pay for up to 28 days per year; they are entitled to marriage allowance under certain conditions; they receive either free rations or ration allowance while attending camps or courses of instruction. As regards the last part of the hon. and gallant Member's Question, the future administration of the Air Training Corps is to be discussed during April at a series of regional conferences at which the Council of Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations will be represented.

    Canal Zone, Egypt
    Sir R. Glynasked the Minister of Defence what arrangements have been made to increase and improve the accommodation of a semi-permanent character for troops and airmen now quartered in the Canal Zone, Egypt.
    Mr. Shinwell: I recently paid a visit to the Canal Zone, during which I examined the accommodation problem closely. The position is admittedly un

    1079
    satisfactory and we are examining ways and means of bringing about an improvement. As the hon. Member will appreciate, however, the matter is not free from difficulty.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Can the Minister say whether the 2,000 houses to be built abroad will include this area in the coming year? Would he say also which has the greater priority, married quarters or accommodation for the troops themselves?
    Mr. Shinwell: We have to look at the picture as a whole, not only in regard to married quarters but quarters for single soldiers.
    Major Beamish: Is the Minister aware that the already difficult political situation has been aggravated by his tactless statement that he intended to press forward with housing of a permanent character? Can he now give an assurance that the Government will press forward with all speed with a temporary housing programme?
    Mr. Shinwell: I do not regard the hon. and gallant Member as a judge of what is tact.

    North Atlantic Treaty
    Mr. Lowasked the Minister of Defence how much it is estimated that assistance to other countries, in accordance with the North Atlantic Treaty, will cost during the next financial year; and where this sum is provided for in the Estimates.
    Mr. Shinwell: We shall continue to make available equipment for many of the North Atlantic Treaty organisation countries, and any necessary financial provision for the manufacture of such equipment by this country is made under the appropriate sub-heads of the Votes concerned. As, however, supplies are normally on a repayment basis no net cost should fall on the United Kingdom in the next financial year.
    Mr. Low: How much is included in the Defence Estimates for next year in respect of the original purchase of equipment which is ultimately destined for other countries?
    Mr. Shinwell: I cannot give a specific reply to that question.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Biscuits
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether he will downpoint sweet and semi-sweet biscuits immediately, and give an assurance that these varieties of biscuits will be de-rationed by June, 1950.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Maurice Webb): I naturally want to take foods off the ration or downpoint them as soon as supplies allow, but obviously I cannot promise when that will be. I am told that sweet and semi-sweet biscuits are being bought readily at the present points values.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware that the consuming public have been continuously denied their everyday requirements? Is he further aware that a ration-card-weary public will, at an early date, show their discontent by turning this Government out?
    Mr. Webb: If the hon. Gentleman will exercise a little patience, he will find that in due course everything will be thoroughly satisfactory.

    Sugar
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether the Government will take steps to encourage and develop supplies of sugar which could be made available for consumption in this country, with special regard to Jamaica, and with a view to taking sugar off the ration at the earliest possible date.
    Mr. Webb: As I told the House on 13th March, I am looking into the whole question of our sugar supplies, including the future production of Commonwealth countries. I should, however, like to point out that we have undertaken to buy all the sugar the Commonwealth, including Jamaica, can send us until 1952.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware there is no world shortage of sugar but a potential surplus? Surely the public ought to have a reasonable allowance of sugar. It is very important.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Food how much extra sugar for domestic jam-making he expects to be able to

    1081
    allow this year; and if he will bear in mind the needs of people with small gardens growing only soft fruit and endeavour to make it possible for them to draw the entire extra allowance early in the season.
    Mr. Webb: I am at present considering how much I can spare and hope to make a statement soon. I shall certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend says, but I doubt if it would be practicable to make all the extra sugar available so early in the season as he suggests.

    Milk Marketing Board
    Mr. Yorkasked the Minister of Food whether he will now hand back to the Milk Marketing Board the powers which were taken from it in 1939.
    Mr. Webb: No, Sir.
    Mr. York: While appreciating that the Minister has not yet had much time to consider the matter, may I ask him to look at the Report of the Select Committee on Estimates which deals with his own Department, and to consider whether the step suggested in the Question would not result in considerable economy?
    Mr. Webb: That Report is one of a number of reports relating to this matter, into which I shall have to look in due course.

    Soya Beans
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Minister of Food what is the average price at which soya beans are bought by his Department; and at what price they are sold to manufacturers in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Webb: Soya beans are sold to manufacturers at £59 per ton, but my Department is a trading concern, and I am not prepared to disclose the prices at which we are buying.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Although I suppose that within the meaning of the words the right hon. Gentleman's Department is a trading concern—though I do not think it would be accepted as such by any successful trading concern—is it not simple to ask the producers what price they get? Is it not
    1082
    a fact that 34s. per cwt. is what the producer gets and does not the Minister consider that the margin between that price and 59s. is a little too much'?
    Mr. Webb: All I can say is that I thought the profit was a very fair one.
    Mr. Stanley: Are we to understand that the Government consider that the difference between 34s. and 59s. is a very fair profit?
    Mr. Webb: I am not necessarily accepting the figure of £34 per ton.
    Hon. Members: What is it?

    Bananas
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been called to the grievance of banana growers in Sierra Leone that, whilst his Department is paying for bananas from that territory £27 per ton, less £5 against any claims for bad or poor quality, such bananas are to be sold in Great Britain at an average price of £170 per ton; and whether, in view of the fact that the present price paid to Sierra Leone growers is insufficient to allow for expansion of their plantations, he intends to revise the arrangements in the near future.
    Mr. Webb: We are buying these bananas under a contract with the Sierra Leone Government, and I consider the price quite fair for the first year of a new trade. Because of the nature of the fruit, the costs of shipping, storing, ripening and distributing bananas are undoubtedly high. The retail price, in this country, in fact, works out at £103 a ton, but my Department's selling price is little more than half that figure.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Would the Minister point out this very considerable profit to some of his colleagues behind him, who are always talking about the profits made by middlemen?
    Mr. Mikardo: Would my right hon. Friend also bear in mind that hon. Gentlemen opposite are equally annoyed when his Department makes a profit and when it makes a loss?
    Mr. Speaker: I thought both hon. Gentlemen wanted to ask a question to obtain information.

    Chocolate
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food what quantities of chocolate have been imported from Czechoslovakia in the last six months.
    Mr. Webb: Five hundred and forty-three tons of chocolate were imported by private traders from Czechoslovakia in the six months ended on 31st January.
    Mr. TintonWhen the Minister reviews the sugar position will he review also his policy of allowing sugar to be exported to the Continent, when it could be used in chocolate manufacture in this country? Will he allow more sugar to be used by home manufacturers for the manufacture of sweets and chocolate?
    Mr. Webb: If that is the fact, I should be very glad to look into it.

    Processed Cheese
    Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Food what is the technical definition of the term "processed cheese" used by his Department.
    Mr. Webb: The definition in the Cheese (Control and Maximum Prices) Order is this:
    "Cheese which, after manufacture, has been heated, and to which an emulsifying agent has been added."
    But my expert Food Standards Committee is trying to get a more precise definition, and is considering the representations of home manufacturers and overseas interests.
    Mr. Vane: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain what an "emulsifying agent" is?
    Mr. Webb: Frankly, I cannot. I was as puzzled about it as is the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: Would such cheese be properly described as an acquired taste?

    Agricultural Workers' Ration
    Mr. Rodgersasked the Minister of Food if he will ensure that agricultural workers engaged in producing food on the land, and who have to have their midday meal away from home, should have extra meat rations so that their food is not inferior to those workers in the towns who have access to industrial canteens.
    Mr. Webb: Farm workers already receive a special cheese ration of six times the ordinary ration to compensate them for the lack of catering facilities in rural areas. I regret, that for the reason I gave to the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) on 13th March, I am unable to give them extra meat as well.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the snippet of cheese which is given to the farm worker is in no way equal to what the worker in the town gets in his canteen, and that there is great dissatisfaction among agricultural workers in this matter?
    Mr. Webb: I know that a great many complaints have been made about it, but it is a very complicated problem. It is no good extending the range of extra rations without proper consideration. I am prepared to be advised by the Trade Union Advisory Committee.

    Bulk Purchasing
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food (1) whether he will revise the policy of grain purchasing, so as to enable the British corn trade to regain its prewar position in the international grain trade;
    (2) whether he will now transfer the buying, warehousing and distribution of raw cocoa from his Department to the trade.
    Mr. Webb: I am considering these and relevant matters in the light of the recommendations of the Select Committee on Estimates. I will make a statement in due course.
    Mr. Turton: How soon will that statement be made? Will it be made this month or later?
    Mr. Webb: It is difficult to say. Fairly soon, I should think.

  TERRITORIAL ARMY (TECHNICAL TRAINING)
  Sir R. Glynasked the Secretary of State for War if he can now explain what are the arrangements that will permit a cadet being attached to a Territorial technical unit in order that after qualification

  1085
  in simple infantry training he may obtain some proficiency and thus qualify on being called up to serve in that particular technical arm of the Service.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Strachey): After qualifying in basic infantry individual training, a cadet may aim for Certificate "T" which is a certificate of proficiency in some branch of technical training. By a system of affiliation between Territorial Army units and cadet units it is possible for the members of a cadet unit to be given such facilities as are available for technical training by a technical unit of the Territorial Army in the same locality. The possession of certificate "T" entitles a cadet, when called up, to choose to serve in a particular technical arm of the Service, provided vacancies are available.

  VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS (COSTS)
  Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Education if he will appoint a committee of inquiry to investigate the financial difficulties in which the managers of the voluntary schools are placed and make recommendations thereon.
  The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): No, Sir. As I explained to
  1086
  the hon. Member for Harwich (Sir S. Holmes) in my answer on 9th March, I have already taken steps to reduce the cost of school building, and conversations on other aspects of the matter are proceeding with representatives of the denominations.
  Mr. Erroll: Will the Minister take steps to secure full publicity for the concessions which he has given already?
  Mr. Tomlinson: I will see what can be done in that direction when we come to a conclusion.

PERSONAL STATEMENT
Mr. Walter Fletcher: Mr. Speaker, would like your help because, in the HANSARD of yesterday, I appear as having voted in both Lobbies. Although I have as good a chance as most hon. Members of overflowing in this way, in fact I only voted in the "No" Lobby and I should like your permission for this to be altered accordingly, for the sake of accuracy.
Mr. Speaker: I can assure the hon. Member that his protest will be noted. If it reassures him at all, his name appears correctly in Votes and Proceedings. HANSARD, of course, is not an official publication; it is unofficial, and, therefore, does not record officially the vote of the hon. Member.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [2ND ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS AND ESTIMATE FOR THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE. 1950–51 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £855,595,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the following Civil and Revenue Departments and for the Ministry of Defence for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1951, namely:—

  CIVIL ESTIMATES
  CLASS I

  £

  1.

  House of Lords

  30,000

  2.

  House of Commons

  275,000

  3.

  Registration of Electors

  300,000

  4.

  Treasury and Subordinate Departments

  1,100,000

  5.

  Privy Council Office

  10,500

  6.

  Privy Seal Office

  3,000

  7.

  Charity Commission

  23,500

  8.

  Civil Service Commission

  168,000

  9.

  Exchequer and Audit Department

  116,000

  10.

  Government Actuary

  12,000

  11.

  Government Chemist

  64,500

  12.

  Government Hospitality

  35,000

  13.

  The Mint

  10

  14.

  National Debt Office

  10

  15.

  National Savings Committee

  290,000

  16.

  Overlapping Income Tax Payments

  17,000

  17.

  Public Record Office

  26,500

  18.

  Public Works Loan Commission

  10

  19.

  Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

  12,000

  20.

  Royal Commissions, & c.

  39,800

  21.

  Secret Service

  1,000,000

  22.

  Tithe Redemption Commission

  10

  23.

  Silver

  1,000,000

  24.

  American Aid Counterpart Funds

  2,000,000

  25.

  Miscellaneous Expenses

  60,000

  Scotland:—

  26.

  Scottish Home Department

  340,000

  27.

  Scottish Record Office

  7,5000

  CLASS II

  1.

  Foreign Service

  4,200,000

  2.

  Foreign Office Grants and Services

  5,500,000

  3.

  British Council

  850,000

  4.

  United Nations

  1,700,000

  5.

  International Refugee Organisation

  2,500,000

  6.

  Commonwealth Relations Office

  550,000

  TRANSPORT
  3.33 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thorneyeroft: I believe that the House will welcome the opportunity on this Vote on Account to have a general discussion upon the grave problems at present confronting the transport industry. I understand that no three-line whip has been issued on tonight's proceedings, but though our discussions will not terminate in the Division Lobby, I believe that the topics we are discussing are fraught with consequences just as grave to our future economy as any of the other matters which have so far been raised this week. The debate can, I understand, range over a fairly wide field, but it may be convenient if, in opening it, I indicate the range of topics with which I propose to deal.
  To start with, I want to say something about the mounting losses which the Transport Commission are incurring at the present moment. I want to say something about their causes and about the way in which we ought to approach that problem. I want then to pass to the principles of a common charges policy, which has just been published by the Transport Commission. I want to say something about the proposal to raise another £3½ million from the travelling public in London under the London charges scheme, and to finish by a few remarks on the attitude of the Government and the Transport Commission towards those engaged either in the passenger or road haulage side still under private ownership. I have indicated to the Minister of Transport the kind of subjects I propose to raise in order that he may furnish himself with the necessary and appropriate ammunition for a counter-attack.
  If I may start with the losses which the Transport Commission are incurring. I
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  am a subscriber to and an assiduous reader of the "Tribune." In last week's issue, published on 10th March, I read an interesting article by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) entitled "The People who Didn't Vote Labour." In the course of that article the hon. Gentleman said:
  "Clearly the election hit us at an unlucky moment"—
  we knew something had hit hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite—
  "when the fruits of existing nationalisation were not yet obvious."
  As far as the transport industry is concerned, I thought that was a masterpiece of under-statement. If there are any fruits of the nationalisation of our transport industry, they are fruits of increasing bitterness. May I remind hon. Gentlemen of the figures? In 1948, the Transport Commission lost £4¾million, and that was on a system of accounting which, to say the least of it, was not the most unfavourable towards the Transport Commission. In 1949, the estimated loss is £20 million. In 1950, the estimated loss is no less than £30 million. The nationalised transport industry at this moment is running at a loss of half a million pounds of public money a week. It is a sobering thought that, as we sit here and discuss these matters, the public funds are running out at a rate which I calculate to be £50 a minute.
  May I turn to the type of problem that this is? First, this is not just a problem of a nationalised industry which has lost in its first year £5 million or £10 million, which is being faced with certain increases in costs of labour, of raw materials, like coal, and matters of that kind. That is a problem which could perhaps appropriately be dealt with by some modest increase in the charges to bring the matter into line with other industries. There is no increase in wages, no increase in the cost of materials, which could possibly account for this savage upward spiral of increasing losses which are going from £5 million in one year to £20 million in the next and to £30 million in the year that follows.
  If we are to find an explanation for a cumulative and mounting loss of that character, it is not in the level of material costs or wages. I do not think any hon. Member opposite would suggest that the railway wages were the cause of this

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  mounting loss at the present time. So it is not there that we must look for the cause, but to the policy pursued by the Transport Commission.
  May I say a word about the policy of the Transport Commission on the passenger side? On 21st April, 1949, the Railway Executive and the Transport Commission published their policy for passenger rail transport. They announced that they were going to put up the passenger train mileage by 300,000 miles a week; that they were going to run 183 more trains every weekday and 349 more trains every Saturday, cross-country expresses, non-stop runs, and buffet cars, and, I think, they even put on that "Ye Olde Worlde Tudor Pub" on wheels to culminate the whole thing—a bold and imaginative policy.
  What happened? Between June and September the increase in train mileage was no less than 1,200,000 for every four-weekly period. Despite that increased mileage, in not one single four-weekly period did the gross receipts come up even to the 1948 level. In other words, there was a vastly increased expenditure of materials, of wages, of everything, to provide this service, and it was not matched by any increase in receipts. Let me take, not my statement upon it, but the statement of Sir Eustace Missenden, who, after all, as head of the Railway Executive, ought to know. At the end of this experiment, he said:
  "During the Summer months just past, we have provided a fine train service, all things considered, and it is somewhat disappointing to all of us that for one reason or another we have not conveyed as many passengers as we had hoped."
  It is no good providing an enormous train service if it is empty and for one reason or another—I shall come to those reasons presently—the travelling public just do not choose to travel in those trains.
  I am not quoting a lot of figures, but this is a matter on which one or two must be referred to. The average receipts per passenger train mile were 13s. 9d. in 1948; in 1949, they were down to less than 12s. 3d., a decrease of more than 10 per cent. I assure the Minister and the House that I quote these things not in any spirit of carping criticism. Our duty in this Committee today is to try to find out what is wrong and then there may be some opportunity of trying to put it right.
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  I ask the Minister to consider these facts which I have put before him. I gave him notice of these broad matters before the Debate and either already or during the course of our discussions today consideration can be given to them. I ask him; is it not a fact that these events on the passenger rail side are the prime cause of the present increasing losses on the railways? If there is some other cause, let it be put forward, but if this is the right cause then, at any rate, Members of the Committee can all be talking about the same thing and we can all be directing our minds to what is the real problem which we are up against.
  I should like to put forward one or two considerations which, I think, should be borne in mind in trying to arrive at a solution. It is my firm belief that British Railways, on the passenger side, have priced themselves out of the market. I do not believe that people can afford to pay the fares which are at present asked for on our railway system. A lot has been said about a rise of only 55 per cent. but it seemed to me, when the case for an increase in rates on the goods side was being argued, that the general views expressed on the part of the Commission itself was that passenger fares were up about 98 per cent. on pre-war. But whatever the figure is, it is too high for people to pay. The only way we will ever get more people to travel on the railways is on a basis and under a policy in which the fares are brought down instead of being put up.
  The second consideration I put to the right hon. Gentleman is this. Does he think that the extended running on the passenger side last summer was justified? Did it, in fact, pay a dividend? I think it is impossible, on the figures I have quoted, to argue that it did. Does he, and do the railways, intend to repeat the same experiment next summer? If they do, it looks to me as though we shall be paying a very heavy loss on that.
  My third consideration is this. I do not believe that a solution to the problem is to be found in London; it can only he found in the railway regions. I do not believe that the Transport Commission or the Railway Executive know what sections of their line or what services they provide are running at a profit and what at a loss. Certainly, it is impossible to find out from the railway

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  accounts. The only way in which the railways can be made profitable is to de-centralise responsibility for their administration, to place the responsibility for running the railway lines fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the chief regional officers. They ought to be sent for now, to be asked to show and to say what are their proposals for making their railway regions profitable, and they ought to be given the maximum freedom for putting that policy into full effect.
  The last consideration that I want to put on this particular side of the matter is this, and I say it in no spirit of criticism of existing members either of the Railway Executive or of the Transport Commission. Is there not room for some new blood on the Transport Commission? Why is Lord Ashfield's vacancy not being filled? The right hon. Gentleman is under a duty to fill that vacancy; he has to have four full-time members of the Transport Commission. Where is—if I may so express it—the man with real commercial knowledge on the Transport Commission—who is he? I am not casting reflections upon Sir Cyril Hurcomb, whom we all know as a magnificent civil servant, or Mr. Benstead, a most outstanding member of the trade union movement, or Lord Rusholme. But where is the man of real commercial upbringing, background and knowledge? When it comes to making the difference between a profit and a loss, the man for whom we ought to look is the man with real commercial training. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to exercise his duty and to appoint someone to the vacancy created by the lamented death of the late Lord Ashfield.
  I know the difficulties with which the Minister is faced. He is faced with the proposal, with which I shall deal presently, of increasing the freight rates by 16⅔ per cent. I beg him to think carefully before he assents to any proposal of that character. I beg him to examine carefully the kind of points I have tried to put before him this afternoon, to see whether we cannot get increased efficiency on the railway side and cut out some of these losses. I assure him that if he decided to take that course, if he decided to make a real effort to take the necessary steps to improve the railway administration, and tried to make
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  the savings that way instead of taking the very dangerous step of putting up the freight rates, he would have the wholehearted backing and co-operation of hon. Members on this side of the Committee. Even though some of the measures he had to take were unpopular, he would still have that support.
  In turning to the remedies which have been put forward by the Transport Commission and by the Government, I come to matter which may be a little more controversial. I think that the remedies which they have proposed are mistaken in their objectives and likely to be very mischievous in their effects. The first point from which one ought to start is the proposals for integration. Hon. Members who were in the House during the last Session, and certainly every hon. Member who participated in the General Election of 1945, will recollect the bold claims which were made by the Socialist Party about the benefits of what they called "an integrated and co-ordinated system of inland transport." The Golden Age almost was to be ushered in as soon as this integration had taken place. The principal weapon of integration was to be a charges scheme, which was to be common to both road and rail. In due course the Transport Act was passed, and in that Act a period of two years was laid down within which to produce the charges scheme. No charges scheme was forthcoming at all, and eventually the right hon. Gentleman extended the period for a further two years. Now, at long last, we have not a charges scheme, but a document which is called the "Draft Outline of Principles Proposed to be Embodied in a Charges Scheme for Merchandise Traffic."
  Before coming to its intrinsic merits or demerits, the first thing I say is that this document, and the principles embodied in it, are no help whatever in the problems about which I have been talking so far. Mr. Wilson, the Financial Controller of the Transport Commission, giving evidence before the Transport Tribunal the other day, was asked when they would get benefits from this integration, and he put it at approximately 10 years from the time the Commission was first set up. Ten years is rather a long time. The right hon. Gentleman and his party are always boasting about the way in which they fulfil their election pledges,

  1097
  but this is to be paid on a very much post-dated cheque. In 1945 there was no mention that the public would have to wait 10 years for the benefits of this integrated and co-ordinated system of inland transport. Looking at it from the best point of view, we cannot look for benefits for five years to come, so we are very doubtful whether any benefit could come from the pursuit of a policy such as this.
  May I remind hon. Members of the way in which charges have been fixed so far? Up to now, in theory at any rate, the charges for goods traffic on the railways have been fixed under a railway classification drawn up under the Railways Act, 1921. On the roads side the charges have been fixed by what it costs to carry the goods, plus a margin of profit for the road haulier concerned. That is all to be altered. Under the Government's proposals in this document, they say:
  "There now arises the question of what is needed to co-ordinate the charging arrangements of the three services … The best practical foundation for achieving these ends is to provide a classification … which, as far as possible, shall be common to all three services. The charges of the respective forms of transport may, however, differ, but should be so framed as to encourage traffic towards the service which can convey it most conveniently and economically."
  I think "framed" is the operative word. Who is to judge which traffic can carry goods most economically and effectively? Not long ago private traders had the right to choose which form of traffic could carry their goods most effectively and economically. Who is to decide now—Sir Cyril Hurcomb, the Transport Tribunal, or the Minister? We ought to be told, and we ought to be told what kind of principles they have in mind. As far as I am concerned, I have no idea whatever of the kind of factors any of those bodies would bring into consideration in making a decision of that character, which is of overwhelming importance to every trader concerned.
  They go on with all sorts of proposals. They are going to divide up the whole country into map squares on the Ordnance Survey and charges are to be based on how many squares one crosses. It reminds me of "Alice Through the Looking Glass." The whole thing will look like a gigantic chess board with the country divided into squares and with Sir Cyril Hurcomb as the Red Queen in the
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  middle. I suggest that whether or not some of the proposals here may be of advantage in a new system of railway rating, they cut across everything that we on this side have ever stood for in transport policy. Our policy is that each and every form of transport should be encouraged to give the best and cheapest service of which it is capable. The whole object of the scheme outlined here is to prevent that from happening. The whole object is to see that in every circumstance the road rates are brought up to the rail rates.
  I want hon. Members to understand very plainly that there is a proposal for putting up the railway rates 16⅔ per cent. If this scheme were put into effect, this scheme of co-ordination, the first step necessary would be to put up the road rates by 16⅔ per cent. as well. Otherwise it would cut across any form of co-ordination between road and rail. In fact, it would be necessary to put them up by more than 16⅔ per cent. to stop traffic going from road to rail, as at present.
  This document dealing with the principles of an integrated transport scheme is a typical product of a railway theoretician and has nothing whatever to do with the realities of transport on either road or rail. What does determine charges in any transport system? They were not decided by the 1921 classification based upon what the traffic could bear, but by the harsh impact of road competition. What is going to determine charges in the future is not some theory about loading capacity, but the fact that the nationalised railway system is making losses. What has happened is not the submission of some well drawn up charges scheme, but a decision to put up the rates all round by 16⅔ per cent.
  That brings me to the expedients the Government and the Transport Commission have been driven to in trying to get out of this very serious position in transport policy. I will summarise the expedients. The first is to force up the rates and to try to pay the losses quickly that way; the second thing they will try to do is to force up road rates to keep level with the rail rates, and the third thing is to smash the outside competition which, in circumstances of that kind, will very quickly take away a large part of their business. In the remainder of my

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  remarks I propose to say just how they propose to carry out these expedients.
  That brings me to the question of the 16⅔ per cent. The first expedient is to force up the rate, the easy way any monopolist will always choose to buy himself out of difficulty—a flat-rate all-round increase of 16⅔ per cent. Let us consider the history of the application. I remember that on 28th November the right hon. Gentleman came to the House of Commons and said that the Transport Commission had asked him to look into the application for an increase in rates as a matter of the utmost urgency. In an answer given yesterday, he informed the House that the report of the Transport Tribunal was received by the Government before the election. It was received on 6th February. Why has it not been published? I cannot overestimate—I think it would be difficult to do so—either the gravity of the decision which has to be made or the dangers of delay in making it.
  Just consider the position of men in this country engaged in the export trade. They have got to plan. I do not know whether hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite recognise the fact that private enterprises in this country have to plan a long way ahead. When they are trying to break into the American market, it is no use saying to a buyer from that country "I am sorry, but we cannot tell you what our prices will be. You see, we are waiting for the Minister of Transport to say whether the transport charges are to go up by 16⅔ per cent." The buyer would put his order book in his pocket. A firm would never get an order on those terms. It is of the utmost importance that we should be told whether these rates are to go up by 16⅔ per cent. or not.
  I emphasise, too, the gravity of the decision. To grant this application would give a sharp twist to the vicious upward spiral of increasing costs in this country. It would mean that steel would be affected to an amount of between 8s. and 10s. per ton. It would mean that people in London would have to pay another 4s. a ton for their coal. It would mean a direct tax on the agricultural industry of something like £2 million. It would place almost intolerable difficulties upon those people in the far-off parts
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  of this country, such as those in the north of Scotland or the far west, in whose businesses transport costs are absolutely fundamental. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will hesitate for a long time before he takes such an easy short-term method of evading his difficulties.
  I mention London, which brings me to the special tax which is to be placed by the Transport Commission upon the travelling public in London. Another scheme has been produced. An application has been made for a London Area Passenger Charges Scheme, the effect of which is to raise another £3,500,000 out of the travelling public in London, a pretty large amount. The whole scheme is drawn up under the pretence of being something to iron out anomalies. It is amazing what one can do under the cloak of ironing out anomalies. The Commission say it is:
  "to secure, as far as possible, equality of fares for different journeys of similar length. …"
  Then it is stated, in paragraph' 11 of their memorandum:
  "The scheme is designed to secure a large measure of assimilation of Railway Executive and London Transport Executive charges by applying to both, as far as practicable, a new standard scale based generally on a rate of 1.25d. per mile."
  Is that what they are doing? If they are doing that, why are they applying to put up to 3d. the 2½sd. bus fare, which is based on exactly 1¼ per mile? That is a new anomaly. Could anyone in the Committee really justify the creation of that new anomaly? Everyone who knows about these things knows that the 2½ bus fare is a gold mine in the London Passenger Transport world. This is a deliberate attempt to raise another £3,500,000 out of the passengers in London to help in some small way towards paying the losses which the nationalised railways are at present incurring.
  I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to deny that. Could anybody seriously imagine that at this moment in our economic history, with Minister after Minister going to the microphone and talking about the importance of keeping down costs and profits, anyone would say "We must increase the revenue of the London Transport Executive by

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  another £3,500,000 "? It was openly admitted before the Transport Tribunal before the election that this was a method of getting more money out of one side to pay the loss which would be incurred on the other.
  Nor is this the end of the damage that is being caused. I have always said plainly that what the Government are trying to do is to put up the bus fares in order to try to pay the loss on the railways. I have always said so. It was always indignantly denied. is it denied now? Does anyone on the benches opposite deny it? Is it not the open and accepted policy of the Socialist Party to put up the bus fares to pay the losses on the railways? Of course, no one denies it. It was admitted by counsel for the Transport Commission before the Tribunal. He said:
  "I am told that we are putting up road charges where we can, and that we will continue to do so."
  There could not be a more frank or more open admission of what the Government's real intentions were.
  Of course, the right hon. Gentleman wants to extend this system to the rest of the country. I remember that before the election he said in the House of Commons:
  "I am satisfied that when the road haulage process is complete,"—
  that is, when he had smashed competition in the road haulage business—I shall mention that matter in a moment—it is a polite way of putting it
  "and when the rest of the country follows the same plan, through the area schemes that we applied in London in 1933, we shall get that balance between the receipts and expenditure of road and rail transport which will enable the Commission on the whole to pay its way."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1949; Vol. 470, c. 1358.]
  The local authorities on the North-East Coast are not quite as dumb as that. I think every one of them intend to fight that scheme tooth and nail. They have seen what has been done in London and they do not want it to be done to them. I warn the hard-headed folk in the Eastern Counties, where the London Passenger Executive are travelling round in two buses, known as Cardwell's circus to popularise a scheme, to look a little closer at the scheme being offered to them. They do not want money to be
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  taken from them to pay for the losses on the railway side.
  There are no lengths to which the right hon. Gentleman and the Transport Commission are not prepared to go at present in order to close down competition. There is not a section of the public which is not being made to suffer from the pursuit of this policy. Let me give a quotation from the "Oxford Times" of 10th March. It says:
  "The attempt of the Ministry of Transport to force members of the public to patronise the nationalised railways against their will has received further illustration at Culham and Abingdon. Personnel from the Royal Naval Air Station at Culham and the R.A.F. Station at Abingdon have in the past, when going on week-end leave, to London or beyond, travelled by coach to Victoria at a fare of 8s. 6d. return. As most of the men stationed at Culham live in the Chatham area, it has been particularly convenient for them to go direct to Victoria, and has given them longer time at their homes than would have been possible had they had to travel to London by rail and cross from Paddington to Victoria. The coach firm who provided this very useful service has now been ordered to stop it—on pain of having its allocation of petrol reduced."
  The Service Ministers ought to do something to stop this kind of thing going on. Service men are not paid very much, and why they cannot have the benefit of going in coaches on their leave if they want to, I do not know. On one side is the whole pressure of the Transport Commission and the Ministry of Transport; let the Service ministries try to do something on the other.
  That case might come before the Traffic Commissioners, but the Minister is most anxious to avoid having to go before the Commission. One method he has followed is this: a few days before polling day in the General Election the Transport Commission bought the Red and White bus group for £4,500,000—£60,000 in cash and the rest in Transport Stock. It was a voluntary agreement; the concern were willing to sell. They were going to take the money out of this country and put it into their African interests. They take the view that it is less speculative to run transport in Africa than buses under a Socialist administration in South Wales. Why did the Minister buy the Red and White bus group? For what purpose? There is no scheme, not even an outline scheme for the area. I will tell the House, in case the Minister does not know—in

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  order to buy out the opposition before he made an application for the scheme. That is a grossly improper way of spending public money.
  Mr. Poole: Is there any difference between this proposal of the Transport Commission and the standard practice of privately-owned railway companies in buying a controlling interest in road transport undertakings?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The railway companies generally bought them for some purpose; and they also used their own money. This is being paid for by public money, for no admitted purpose whatsoever.
  Mr. Mitchison rose—
  Mr. Thorneycroft: No, I am not giving way to the hon. and learned Member; we all know him.
  On the road haulage side, I have always said that it was the deliberate intention of the Government, of the Socialist Party, and the Transport Commission, to smash the free hauliers of this country, and I repeat that charge today. Indeed, it follows as night follows the day from the policy which they pursue. They are going to put up rail rates by 16⅔ per cent. They will have to put up road rates as well in order to have that co-ordination between road and rail which they always say that we have to have. What would happen if they did not smash the free haulage side? The free haulage side would undercut them all over the place. So what do they propose to do?
  Every hon. Member who has been in his constituency knows what they are doing at the present moment. I visited a haulage firm in my division the other day and I saw seven lorries idle. Sitting round the fire were seven men who had been idle for three weeks because they had no petrol. They were reading a speech by the President of the Board of Trade saying that hard work was the one way to get out of all our difficulties. I commiserated with the haulage contractor concerned, and he said, "That is not the worst." He said that on 1st April, or whenever is the appointed day—28th February—they were limiting his steel lorry to 25 miles. They had refused the original permit. He said, "That lorry used to run steel from the great valleys of South Wales up to Scotland." What
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  does the right hon. Gentleman think that that man can do hawking steel round the suburbs of Abergavenny?
  I can produce case after case of this kind. I quote the case of another man in another part of the country who started his business in 1927 and whose son went into one of the Services. He postponed forming a partnership with his son until the boy came back. Because he did that, under a trick in the Act, he is not entitled to have an original permit at all. He managed to get supplementary permits. He writes:
  "These were received on 11th February, 1950, and expired on 28th February, 1950. After that date we were allowed to take one ton per annum outside the 25-mile radius. Since then we applied for two months extension of this permit, which has been granted. However, the fact remains that we either have to go over to the Road Haulage Executive completely or in part or operate 10 vehicles on 25-mile radius which is impossible."
  Is that the right way to treat the ex-Service men of this country? Why penalise men like that? Cannot the great transport monopoly get on without trying to smash every decent man who is endeavouring to earn his living in that way in the country?
  I apologise for having detained the Committee longer than I intended, but I believe that these matters are important. The right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen opposite know my views plainly enough. I am against this Socialised system of transport. I condemn great State monopolies. But I do know this; I know that the right hon. Gentleman is faced today with a decision of no small importance. He has to make up his mind whether he is going to put up these transport rates or not: and I imagine, on a matter of that kind, it would be a Cabinet decision. He is faced with the same kind of problem as faces every right hon. Gentleman on that bench.
  He can sit there and just watch things drift on, with the rates going up steadily. He can try to bolster up the thing by putting up charges here or fares there, and getting a bit more off the passengers somewhere else. He can bolster it up by smashing competition and by eliminating bus companies or eliminating road hauliers. Or he can use the powers that Parliament has given him under the Transport Act, which are wide powers of

  1105
  direction. He can put new blood into the Commission. He can appoint in the place of Lord Ashfield someone who has real commercial knowledge, and there are two or three more part-time men who could come in. He could make a reformation in the policy pursued by the Commission along the lines I indicated earlier in my speech. I hope he will take the latter course. It is the course which both courage and the national interest alike demand.
  4.15 p.m.
  The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): I welcome very much indeed this opportunity for the affairs of the British Transport Commission, and transport generally, to be reviewed by the House at the present moment; especially if we can conduct this Debate in the spirit in which the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) opened his speech, although I am afraid he did not continue in that spirit throughout the whole of his remarks. He stated that possibly we should not end tonight in the Division Lobbies. If we can discuss the affairs of the transport services of this country, which I have always recognised represent, and must of necessity be, an on cost on British production, I think it will be to the common good.
  The first thing with which I wish to deal is the appeal to the emotions by the misrepresentations of the hon. Member for Monmouth when he was referring to the problem of the treatment of ex-Service men. To introduce that matter into these affairs does no service to anyone. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Let me put this point to hon. Members. My mind goes back to the circumstances that prevailed after the 1914–18 war. I remember the circumstances in London very clearly, because I was closely associated with all the steps leading to the forming of the London Passenger Transport Board. At that time hundreds of ex-Service men had put the whole of their gratuities into the purchase of buses on the hire purchase system; and as a result of the conditions created on the London streets the whole of the capital invested then by private enterprise in the London General Omnibus Company was imperilled.
  On that occasion the Conservative Government was not concerned in the least with the rights of the ex-Service men. What it was concerned about was the
  1106
  interest on the capital invested in the London General Omnibus Company. At the request and direction and through the influence of the London General Omnibus Company, the Conservative Government in 1933 passed the London Passenger Transport Act. The passing of that Act wiped out all these ex-Service men and created the only complete monopoly of transport that we have in this country today, and have had so far anywhere else. Then it was not a question at all of considering the rights of private enterprise. What concerned the Government of that day was simply the protection of the interest on the capital invested in the London General Omnibus Company.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: As I was a member of that organisation, I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that every single person, ex-Service man and otherwise, was fully compensated for his expenditure and was given an opportunity of joining the London General Omnibus Company.
  Mr. Barnes: Under the Transport Act any road haulage undertaking which is taken over is compensated. In the case of the Red and White Omnibus Company which operates in the constituency of the hon. Member for Monmouth, compensation was paid. I do not know whether he is alleging that the £4,500,000 is too much compensation, but I think that is the answer. The same principle applies here in our legislation. When by Act of Parliament the property of an individual is compulsorily taken over in order to serve the interests of the wider community, the principle of compensation still prevails.
  Sir R. Glyn: Will the right hon. Gentleman forgive me for interrupting him again? Surely there is a difference between starving a man to death, which is the policy which has been followed in the case of these freight transport ex-Service men, and buying them out and giving them compensation?
  Mr. Barnes: I do not accept that there is any policy of starving to death in this matter. I am amazed that any hon. Member who followed the process of passing the Transport Act could make a statement of that kind. The compensation provisions were adequately and fully debated, in Committee, in the House and

  1107
  in another place. Therefore, there is no justification for that statement.
  Perhaps I may now address my remarks to the larger problem involved. I do not in any way attempt to evade the fact that the major problem of finance involved here arises on the railway side of the Transport Commission's undertakings. How could it be otherwise? In the early stages of this transfer the first undertakings to be absorbed into the administration of the British Transport Commission were the four main line railway companies, the canals and the London Passenger Transport Board. When one considers the financial circumstances which immediately arise from that state of affairs, I do not consider that it is fair in a Debate of this kind to ignore the history of what had happened prior to that decision of Parliament. It is my duty briefly to recall to hon. Members those circumstances.
  In the first place, no one—and certainly not the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn), who has been a director of one of the railway companies in this country—will deny that this problem of road and rail competition has not arisen from the advent of the British Transport Commission. That problem has been growing steadily and has become graver in its repercussions on the affairs of the country throughout the whole of the first part of this century. As a House of Commons, we cannot avoid responsibility for the fact that up to the beginning of this century the railways practically had a monopoly of traffic in this country. But with the coming of the road vehicle that began to change.
  I recall that just before the outbreak of the Second World War—in 1939, I think, speaking from memory—the Transport Advisory Council drew attention to the grave position of the railways and stated that their financial stability was becoming jeopardised. That was when they were considering the claims of the railways under their "square deal" proposals. Parliament was facing that situation before the war broke out. The problem, however, was obscured for the whole of the duration of the war.
  I feel it is right to say that the nation used the railways of this country to the fullest possible extent for the purpose of
  1108
  prosecuting the war. Not only did the receipts of the railways during the war period enable the Government of the day to pay the agreed rent of £43,500,000 to the railways but, as I have stated before, over the whole period there was a surplus over and above that sum amounting to something like £190 million. I submit that since the Government of the day, which was predominantly Conservative, was aware that before the war those conditions, which were certain to be more severe after the war, were bringing about financial instability to the railways, it would have been a sensible policy to have made from that surplus some provision to cushion the effect on the railways of the post-war conditions which they were bound to face. But that was not done.
  The problem was further aggravated in this sense: I do not know whether the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) objects to this, but I think it is vital for the full consideration of this problem, in view of the conditions which the British Transport Commission and those responsible for the administration of the railways have to face. I would also emphasise that one has to consider the livelihood of over 600,000 persons employed on the railways in this country. The position was aggravated by the wear and tear upon the railways during the war, and that is represented in arrears of maintenance and in costs which no other branch of industry in this country has had to face.
  I think it is essential to get a proper appreciation of the financial background of the British Transport Commission at the moment. It is necessary to remember that all through the war the price level of every other commodity in this country was steadily rising. Prices always rise during a war, and they were steadily rising against the railway managements of this country. An enormous amount of traffic was being channelled through the railways during the war—military, passenger and other traffic. Incidentally, passengers were being carried under impossible conditions, although I will refer to that later when I am dealing with the improved services of the railways. It does not alter the position that the increased revenue obscured the fact that the railways were able to carry on despite the steady rise in the level of costs against them. That obscuring of the situation went on until 1945–46.

  1109
  But immediately this enormous artificial and abnormal traffic, which had been channelled through the railways during the war, came to an end at the conclusion of the war, the weight of these increased prices which had been rising throughout the whole commodity market fell with increased severity upon railway receipts. The net effect which has had to be faced by the British Transport Commission is that its overall average level of expenses has increased by 120 per cent. over what it was in 1939. During the war and until 1946 when I, as the responsible Minister, had to face the position, the only increase in railway freights and fares that had been made amounted to 16⅔ per cent.
  I put it to any hon. Member, and especially to those with any business experience: Tell me any form of business management, either private or public, that could pay its way with its expenses increased by 120 per cent. and with an increase in its charges of only 16⅔ per cent. That was the position at that period. There have been two subsequent increases in freights and passenger fares, first of 25 per cent. in freights and 33⅓ per cent. in fares in 1946, and then later on of 55 per cent. in both. Even with increased charges of 55 per cent., the average overall level of costs which the railway management have to meet is 120 per cent. above what it was in 1939. I would remind hon. Members that that increased cost has occurred over the whole field of private enterprise.
  When we are considering the procedure for adjusting the situation, we find that there is no other industry in this country, private or public, no matter whether we take the National Coal Board, the Electricity Board, the Iron and Steel Federation or any other business concern in this country, which, when its expenses are increased like that, does not automatically increase its charges. That is the procedure throughout the community. The railway administration, and now, of course, the British Transport Commission—because Parliament has transferred that procedure to the Commission—is the only business administration in this country which, when it wishes to adjust its charges to its expenses, has to go through a special procedure.
  I want the Committee to consider what that procedure is. From 1940 until the most recent application by the British
  1110
  Transport Commission to the Transport Tribunal, it was the responsibility of the Government and the Minister, while the railways were controlled, to decide whether there should be any increases in charges, and, so far as that phase of the problem was concerned, they went up by 55 per cent. Then, Parliament passed the Transport Act. When we were passing the Bill through the House, the hon. Gentleman, who was a member of the Standing Committee and is no doubt very familiar with our discussions on that occasion, will remember that it was anticipated that, when the British Transport Commission took over, the Minister would be no longer responsible for the day-to-day management and conduct of affairs of the Commission.
  Before the Commission could function, we passed through the period of acquiring all these undertakings, and they had to he safeguarded against any situation which might arise and might involve them in adjustment of their charges rates. Under Section 82 of the Transport Act, there was a special provision that, if such a situation did arise, then application should be made to the Minister, but that, in this case, although the Minister has the executive power of making the decision, it was provided that the Minister should first consult the members of the Transport Tribunal, and should take into consideration their advice. As a matter of fact, this situation did arise, as the Committee is aware, and, before we adjourned for the Christmas Recess, I reported that I had received such an application.
  In the intervening period, the Transport Tribunal has been considering this application for an increase of 16⅔t. in freight charges, and all the main trading and industrial bodies of this country have had an opportunity of putting their case to the Tribunal, which represents a procedure in which the traders' organisations are concerned. This makes utterly absurd, in my view, the kind of statement which we have had in the opening speech to the effect that the British Transport Commission is a monopoly which enforces its will here, there and everywhere else without any consideration for those who have to bear its charges. As a matter of fact, all these large trading bodies have represented their case to the Tribunal.
  In regard to the dates, the Tribunal reported on railway charges on 6th

  1111
  February, they reported on canal and dock charges on 16th February, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will bear this in mind, especially in view of the comments he made about the injurious effects of any increases of this kind and the appeal which he made to me that it should be avoided at all costs. Would he suggest that the Government should automatically accept the decision of the Transport Tribunal in this transitional period without considering the impact of such charges on the industries of this country, and, if that is his view, what becomes of his accusation, or rather the inference which I detected running through his remarks, that this has been withheld?
  In view of the urgency of the matter, the hon. Member must decide on which point he wants to press any criticisms on me. If his main plea is that, in his view, such a charge at the present moment would be injurious to the economic affairs of this country, he cannot complain if the Government of the day takes into consideration and reviews the arguments that have been put forward by the trading concerns who represented their views to the British Transport Commission.
  When we take into consideration the fact that the final decision and report to me was made only on 16th February, and that hon. Members and everybody else in the country were then engaged in the final stages of a General Election, surely he does not say that there has been any undue delay in considering this matter? At the first opportunity which I had, I announced in this House my intention to publish the Report and recommendations of the Transport Tribunal, and I am able to state here and now, and hon. Members will be able to confirm it when they get the published report, which will be out very quickly now, that the Transport Tribunal, after considering all the arguments levelled against these increased charges by the different trading bodies, see no alternative but to ask the Minister to authorise those charges.
  It is that recommendation which the Government are considering at the moment, and, for the very reason which the hon. Gentleman so strongly pressed this afternoon—that, before any decision
  1112
  is made, because responsibility does rest upon the Government and the Minister, they are considering the repercussions of such an increase before any final decision is made.
  Mr. P. Thorneyeroft: In order to get it absolutely clear and beyond doubt, am I right in understanding the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Tribunal has made a recommendation that the increased charges should be made? Do I also understand that, up to this moment, the Government have not decided whether to accept that advice or reject it?
  Mr. Barnes: I think I have made that matter perfectly plain.
  Whilst we are on this matter, it occurs to me that it might be desirable, in order to avoid confusion in the future, if I refer to the comments of the hon. Gentleman opposite on the London Charges Scheme and on the procedure of the charges schemes generally. It might be of assistance if I were to state the procedure which will prevail in future. In the very nature of things, this is the only occasion on which the transitional provisions of Section 82 of the Transport Act are likely to come into operation. Side by side, or, rather, just subsequently to this last application, the British Transport Commission were in the position of submitting their first charges scheme under the Transport Act which deals with the whole of their services in the London area.
  On this question of the charges scheme, I recollect the debate which we had on the first annual accounts of the British Transport Commission. The right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite on that occasion, as he has done on other occasions, emphasised the importance of the British Transport Commission reaching the point when these charges schemes should be submitted. That is the general intention, and it is my view as well. It is impossible to carry through the process of integration to any substantial extent and to secure the economies that we believe can be secured by the Transport Act until charges schemes are in operation.
  The British Transport Commission has arrived at the stage when it is able to put the first charges scheme into operation, and that scheme applies to London. I do not think there is any

  1113
  justification for minimising the importance of the London charges scheme. After all, something like one-fifth of the total population of these islands live within the London area as defined by the London Passenger Transport Board, and that area represents a very important section of their operations.
  I would remind hon. Members that in the competition in the past between road and rail a great multitude of variations and anomalies have developed in our transport system, particularly on the railways. I do not think it has ever been contested by hon. Members opposite, even though they have disagreed with the principle, that if we are going to have a public system of transport, it is desirable that in such a system these anomalies should be removed, and that there should be an equitable principle as between one citizen and another and one trader and another in the conveying of their goods or services on the public transport system. The whole purpose of the charges scheme is to iron out and to remove those anomalies, and I do not wish to evade the issue that, by that process, the British Transport Commission ought to be able to pay its way.
  I wish to explain the difference between the London charges scheme and the pamphlet with which the hon. Member opposite played so much in his comments. That pamphlet, as he knows, was an initial preparation by the British Transport Commission outlining the principles upon which the merchandise charges schemes would be based, and as something on which to form a basis of discussion with traders and other bodies so that the Commission could get their reactions side by side with the building up of these schemes. I would point out to the Committee that the main line railways operate a considerable number of suburban services in the London area. London transport is responsible for the road services and for the Tube and Underground services. But over the London transport system, particularly if we compare that system with the suburban lines of the railways, all kinds of anomalies exist. The purpose of this London charges scheme is to remove those anomalies and to introduce a principle of equity between all the various grades of traffic.
  1114
  It is not for me, nor, if I may say so, for the hon. Member opposite, to discuss the merits or the demerits of the London charges scheme here today. I would remind the Committee that this procedure was laid down in the Transport Act and that under this charges scheme the executive and final decision does not rest with either the Minister or the Government. It rests with the Transport Tribunal. Here, again, all bodies—the local authorities, trade unions, traders' organisations, and, indeed, everyone—will have an opportunity of placing their views before the Transport Tribunal.
  When the hon. Member opposite says that this or that fare has been agreed to, that is not the situation at the present moment. It is only the proposal of the British Transport Commission, which must be investigated by the Transport Tribunal. Such charges are subject to the criticisms and the views of the various bodies representing the London population, and it is only when the Transport Tribunal eventually decides the issue that those charges will come into being. Therefore, it will not be the British Transport Commission that will determine the charges, and neither will it be the Minister or the Government; it will be. as I have said, the Transport Tribunal.
  I suggest that there is no other industry in this country whose proposals, whose affairs, whose expenses, and whose administration are subject to the same kind of severe public examination as that which will prevail with regard to the British transport system. Therefore, far from any hon. Member of this Committee being justified in pointing a finger of scorn and ridicule at that procedure, it would be a better thing for this country if private organisations had to submit in a similar way to that type of investigation.
  I want to remind the Committee of one or two things in connection with the railways that ought to be borne in mind, because I recognise that this is mainly a criticism of the railways. In 1949, for instance, not a single passenger carried on the railways in this country was killed in a train accident. The railways carried 992,782,000 passengers in that year, and yet not one was killed. There were other accidents, of course, but what other service in this community can boast of a record of that kind?

  1115
  On the roads, 4,773 persons lost their lives. In civil aviation, 27 persons lost their lives. But on the railways, which carried nearly 1,000 million passengers, not one passenger lost his life in a train accident. Is not that something which this Committee ought to bear in mind, and is it not a valuable means of transport which we should not lightly set aside?
  I now come to the problem of integration. We cannot integrate services nor can we secure the economies that will eventually arise from such integration until, first of all, we get the resources. The first problem of the British Transport Commission was to unify the four main line railway companies, and I venture to suggest that whatever test we apply to those four amalgamated companies, we shall find that considerable economies have emerged from their amalgamation. It is very regrettable that these economies have not been disclosed and been made apparent to the community owing to the fact that as they have accrued they have been absorbed by the process of rising expenditure. But there is not the slightest doubt that, had it not been for unification, the financial plight of the railways would have been worse.
  The next point I wish to emphasise—and I want hon. Members opposite, in particular, to keep this in mind—is that if we take the £4,750,000 that was lost in 1948, the £20 million deficiency of 1949, and the estimated deficiency of £30 million in 1950, we see that the proposed increase of 16⅔ per cent. is largely for the purpose of paying the interest to the stockholders of the railways. I say that it is a legitimate charge, but hon. Members should bear in mind that these sums do not represent the normal running expenses of the railways, or even wages, but are largely necessary to meet the interest payments on the compensation stock. The alternative is that the taxpayer should meet these charges, because they are guaranteed under the Transport Act.
  It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to get up and talk bravely about the need for avoiding placing these additional burdens on industry today; but does not industry cover, in all its ramifications, the interest charge on capital? Will he deny that industry generally always carries this interest charge on
  1116
  capital? Is he taking the position today that public transport should not carry these charges, but that the taxpayer should carry them?
  That discloses the real purpose behind Conservative policy. They recognise—as is the case with railways in practically every country in the world—that the railways of this country, faced with the growing road competition of today, are not a paying proposition. I doubt whether any railway system of any magnitude in the world has been able to pay its way with a growing system of road transport by its side. The purpose behind Conservative criticism is that the State, that is to say, the taxpayers, should be landed with the privilege of meeting the deficiencies of the railways in competition with any form of transport on the roads—and the public maintain the roads.
  We hold to a different policy. It is quite absurd for the hon. Member to say that all competition is crushed out. Of the commercial lorries on the roads under "A" and "B" licences, the British Transport Commission, when the scheme is completed, are taking over the whole of long-distance road transport on the goods side. Their fleet will comprise only about one-third of the total "A" and "B" licences. What becomes, then, of the accusation that we are starving out and limiting competition on the roads of this country? There are 700,000 commercial vehicles with "C" licences.
  Mr. Popplewell: Far too many.
  Mr. Barnes: I know that here I differ from some of my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee. My contention is that it is an entirely different thing from taking over a public service vehicle. You cannot enter into details of a private business and determine at any particular time whether a particular journey is beneficial or not.
  What I am dealing with is the major charge levelled against me and against the Government that we are crushing out any form of competition on the road. I say that that charge does not bear a moment's examination. Over 700,000 vehicles under "C" licence are carrying the traffic of private business concerns while the British Transport Commission have only about one-third of the total fleet other than the 700,000 vehicles under "C" licence operated in this country. What the

  1117
  Transport Act has rightly done is to take over long-distance road goods vehicles, with payment of proper compensation, for the purpose of integrating the road and the rail system of this country. In 18 months the vehicles, the plants and so on of over 2,000 road haulage undertakings have been absorbed by the Road Haulage Executive. The British Road Services can be seen operating about the country today. No one can quote a similar performance with regard to the taking over of so many businesses and knitting them into a co-ordinated national enterprise such as the Commission have done in the past 18 months.
  The Committee must bear in mind that, whilst that process of taking over was in operation, the process of integration could not be carried out in its most thorough sense. Now we are reaching that stage, because the process will be completed by April of this year. Under the Act, these 2,000-odd firms have been absorbed. Their lorries and machinery have been knitted into a national organisation. We are now reaching the stage when the results of integration are becoming apparent. I want to put a direct question to hon. Members opposite, and especially to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe), who will speak later. It is this: if the Conservative Party are returned to power, do they propose to hand this organisation back to private enterprise? We are entitled to have an answer. It is a matter of very great moment to the interest of this country. Here we have carried out a process whereby we have now a nationalised organisation to handle goods on long-distance road journeys. We are getting economies in the handling of this traffic. If I understand the policy of hon. Members opposite, they propose to hand this organisation back to some form of private enterprise. Do they propose to hand it back to the old owners who have gone out of business, or are we to have a series of private monopoly groups again in this country?
  If we review the work of the British Transport Commission we shall find that it has thoroughly justified itself up to the present moment. If this Committee will only give it time to develop in its full sense, I am confident that, for the first time in the history of transport in this country, Great Britain will show that it
  1118
  can solve the problem of road and rail in the interests of industry and of passengers.
  4.57 p.m.
  Sir David Robertson: The Minister devoted a large part of his speech to the charges policy of British Railways. It is apparent that the Government have not yet established any proper policy for fixing passenger fares and freight charges. It seems to me that the old system that grew up when there were 200 or more railway companies in Great Britain is still being carried on today. I should have thought that the policy of the planners, who decided to take over our railways, would have been to decide these things in advance. As my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) said in his very brilliant speech, it is entirely unsatisfactory that we might have to wait 10 years before a policy is established.
  When the Government acquired British railways, from Land's End to John O'Groats, they were faced with an expenditure of not less than 75 per cent. before they began to move any loaded vehicles at all. I wonder if they took that fact into account. I have always resented the crude system of charging by so much a mile. Look at the interest charge, the rents, the rates, maintenance, wages and depreciation and all the staffing of every station on the line, every signal box, every locomotive works and shed right throughout the whole system. I suggest that those amount to not less than 75 per cent. of the total expenditure, yet we still retain the principle of charging fares at so much a mile. By doing that we are favouring the short-distance user and penalising the long-distance user. In fact, we are putting the latter out of business.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth said, if this policy is pursued we will price the transport organisations out of business altogether. It costs over £10 return for a Londoner to go third-class to Wick. It costs £3 6s. 0d. to go to Paris, £3 7s. 3d. to go to Brussels and £7 16s. 3d. to go to Nice—those are single fares. With a third-class sleeper, which is essential on a journey of 24 hours to Wick, the single fare would be £7 5s. 0d.

  1119
  There must be something radically wrong with a charges system which permits fares of this kind. I believe fervently in a prosperous and successful railway system, because I feel that Great Britain cannot possibly prosper unless we have such a system. When the Government acquired the railways they acquired the finest network in the world, built at a capital cost many times less than it would cost today. The present lines could not be built at the cost at which they were acquired. The Transport Commission acquired skilled and willing staffs of high and low degree. They acquired some of the finest artisans in the country. I am sure that none of us will ever forget the devoted work which railway employees did during the war in keeping the trains running under intensive bombing by night and day. The British Transport Commission had a rich inheritance when they took over these railways.
  I am surprised that this basic charges policy has not yet been fixed. Out of the extraordinarily crude system which favoured the near-distance user and penalised the long-distance user, a situation developed which made transport so cheap and attractive that very many tickets were sold. That illogical system worked well so far as the railways were concerned, although it hurt the industrialist and the farmer in the remote places. I wonder whether that is not the real solution of this difficulty. Instead of going to the tribunal which fixes rates with this monopolistic 16⅔ per cent. increase, would it not be better to tackle this matter in a commercial way, because I think it is a commercial problem? There is this vast expense of charges which have to be met annually before a train begins to be moved. Is not the remedy to be found in moving more trains, better filled trains, and running trains much more frequently? Is not this a salesman's job? Is it not for the Transport Commission to go out and sell transportation to the people?
  The Minister was wrong in suggesting to the Committee that no railway companies anywhere in the world were making money. In the United States they are paying—
  Mr. Harrison: They are not.
  Sir D. Robertson: They were. If am wrong I apologise, but my belief was that they were putting up a fine show in competition with other forms of transportation.
  Mr. Follick: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that shares in the New York—New Haven—Hartford Company, which were nine dollars in 1936, are not worth half a dollar today?
  Sir D. Robertson: The hon. Member well knows that to quote me the stock value of an old and small railway is no indication of the point I am trying to make. I have not been to the United States since the war, but right up to the war the majority of the railways were profitable. In addition, they gave fine service with much cleaner coaches than we have, much better food and they had a flat rate. They had none of this offensive first and third-class system which, I think, is obsolete. There should be supplementary charges for greater comfort. The Minister has something to copy with great advantage in the parlour cars and the pullman cars and other facilities. The man who wants additional space and comfort pays for it in America.
  Mr. Champion: Will the hon. Gentleman accept these figures? The United States Interstate Commerce Commission tells us that in 1948 the deficit attributed to passenger train services was 560 million dollars; in 1947 the railroads lost 126 million dollars on their express services, 8 million on smalls and another 32 million on less than car load traffic. In order to get over that deficit increases have been made in the overall rate level, making it 60 per cent. higher than in 1946.
  Sir D. Robertson: I am obliged to the hon. Member for giving those figures to the Committee. When I get a chance to study them tomorrow I will do so. From what he has said it appears that my observation that the United States railways are paying is wrong, and I apologise. I am still firmly convinced that this policy which, I imagine, the Transport Commission is following, of trying to dovetail or integrate arrangements with competitors is not really a wholesome policy. I would much prefer to see the railways coming out boldly and accepting the challenge of competition. I should like to see them

  1121
  meet that competition by running more trains and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth said, decentralising. In every area there should be salesmen to persuade people to use trains instead of other forms of transport when visiting football matches and the like. There is a tremendous field. Why should not transportation be sold like any other commodity? Why has it to hinge on to an artificial price arrived at by a monopolistic arrangement?
  The sellers' market is disappearing fast. It will not be a tribunal which will fix the railway charges which can be paid. It will be the industries. The question will arise of whether or not they can afford to pay the charges. I can imagine that if freights are fixed too high there will he a serious decline. I ask the Minister to consider that at this time, when it is apparent that the sellers' market is passing not only at home but overseas—there is consumer and sales resistance everywhere—it is most unwise to contemplate further automatic increases, such as this of 16⅔ per cent.
  I should much prefer to see him put into the regional staffs able and energetic young men, and women too, to canvass business for the railways. That is the only way in which we can ever recover the tremendous expense which must be incurred before movement occurs. The only way in which we can get that expense back is by increased traffic and fully laden goods trains. We should make the railways an attractive proposition. Since I came to this House today I have received a telegram from the Provost of Thurso. It reads as follows:
  "Members of Thurso fishing industry view with great concern the decision to end flat rate, Increased transport charges will prove crippling blow to North of Scotland ports. Solicit your energetic support to have flat rate retained."
  I know that probably it is not within the power of the Minister to grant that the flat rate should be retained, but some consideration must be given to these fishermen in the north-east of Scotland and other places. The withdrawal of the Ministry of Food flat rate means that they will have to pay three times as much in transportation costs as they paid during the operation of the scheme. I know that the fishing interests on the Humber, who are so much more favour-
  1122
  ably placed, are objecting. I also know that the North-Eastern Railway, the North-Western Railway and the Highland Railway showed great enterprise in the past. The great ports of Grimsby and Hull were built by railway companies, as was Fleetwood, which was built by the London and North-Western Railway Company. Of course, they gave very favourable rates to those ports. The 'Government are carrying on with those favourable rates, and denying similar rates to fishermen in the north and in Cornwall and other remote ports. After the building of Grimsby docks it was natural that the old Manchester-Sheffield Railway Company should want to attract all the traffic they could, to and fro, and they succeeded by giving a very favourable rate.
  If I may have the Minister's attention I wish to tell him that this is a very important point, because fish food production is second in importance only to agricultural production. That apart, there is nothing more important in Britain. The greatest problem any Government will have to face is how we can feed 50 million people in these islands. It will not do, after having seen such a message as this telegram from the Provost of Thurso—who, by the way, is one of my political opponents, though I am very glad to serve the industry irrespective of that fact—for it to be cast aside and for us to say, "It is just too bad that these fellows will have to pay 1s. 6d. a stone freightage on fish from Thurso and Wick to the consuming markets while the man in Grimsby pays 6d." That is the approximate position.
  I do not want to damage the men in Grimsby, of course, but I want the Government to face this situation, because the fishing industry at Thurso has been almost entirely built up by ex-Service men from the Navy, Army and Air Force since the war, and that is typical of all those little ports round the coast. The Government have told us what they will do for the Highlands, but we have not seen anything done, apart from talking. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the last Secretary of State for Scotland went to Edinburgh in the summer and made speeches about what they would do, and here is something of great importance to which I draw their attention.

  1123
  I am wholly convinced that if the Government follow a policy of abundance, going out to compete in the freight market for freights and in the passenger market for passengers, they will find both. Why do not the Government turn Thomas Cook and Son loose to sell the Highlands of Scotland to the thousands of people in this country who have never seen them? It is the loveliest area in Europe—there is nothing comparable to it. Sutherland is the most beautiful county of all. Why divert all the energies of the Thos. Cook business, owned by the Transport Commission, to selling holidays at Nice and elsewhere in Europe? Why not sell our own country to our own people? Is it not time we did that? Does not the Minister realise what a wondrous change it would be for the overworked housewife of Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and London if she could get to that glorious countryside and scenery, to the sandy beaches where the foot of man scarcely walks from one year's end to another? There is first-class accommodation in the hotels, boarding houses and private lodgings at cheap rates, which will give food and service equal to anything that can be obtained on the Continent.
  A great field of endeavour exists there, and I draw the Minister's attention to it. The Highland area represents more than one-half of Scotland. Before railways it carried a third of the people but now less than a twentieth. It is the only area in Great Britain which can make a massive contribution to the production of beef, mutton, lamb, pigs, poultry, butter and eggs. I recall that 50,000 head of cattle used to be walked down every year to Falkirk Tryst and then taken on to Newcastle and Scotch Corner to be handed over to the English drovers. We have to use that country again.
  The neglect of the past is finished—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and it was not the neglect of the Tory Party, either; I knew that would be suggested. It was the disgraceful neglect of the Liberal Party, with unrestricted free trade, so long backed up by hon Members opposite. That neglect is ended; we have to raise cattle there. Here is a great field of endeavour for the British Transport Commission. We are doing
  1124
  our duty as an Opposition in pointing out the weaknesses of the present position. We wish the Commission success because without a successful and efficient transport industry there is no hope of industrial and agricultural prosperity in Britain.
  5.13 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine: I agree with much that has been said by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) about the Highlands of Scotland, but I think he tended to disparage the achievements of the British transport industry and, in particular, of British Railways. I feel that the Committee cannot fail to have been immensely impressed by the safety record of the British railway system last year, to which my right hon. Friend drew attention. It is a record which must compare extremely favourably with that of any other railway system in the world. There are other matters on the credit side which have been carried forward with great effect. There is the steadily improving level of punctuality in the running of trains. That is seen by all of us who travel by rail, and is corroborated by the figures in the Report of the Transport Commission. It represents a very real improvement upon the old order. In another field there are the very substantial achievements in terms of economy and transport efficiency in the turn round of freight loads and in the economic use of freight wagons. On all these matters—safety, punctuality, the economic use of freight wagons—I submit to the Committee that the achievements of British transport have many features which ought to make us extremely proud?
  I rise to speak in this Debate because, considering the question of the efficiency of the British transport industry and of the British railways in particular, I am especially concerned with the contentment and welfare of the workers in the industry as a factor of supreme importance in achieving economic efficiency. The Edge Hill division is a division with a great and famous railway connection, and I do not wish to conceal the impression which I have formed during my years of contact with the railwaymen in my division—an impression that certain anxieties and certain worries beset them. They had the highest hopes of nationalisation. Some of those hopes have been

  1125
  fulfilled, but others have not been fulfilled, and I hope it will be regarded by my right hon. Friend as perfectly fair and proper that I should draw his attention to some of these factors and ask him if he will be good enough to deal with them.
  There is, of course, no doubt that the background of the British railway workers' attitude to nationalisation and to the running of the industry is very much shadowed and affected by the fact that nationalisation has come into operation at a time when very substantial, and as many of us believe, very justifiable, wage claims are having to be restrained. If we are thinking in terms of the economic efficiency of the British transport system and of the British railways as a whole, it is a factor of some importance that over half the British railwaymen are at present working at a basic rate of something less than £5 per week. It is discouraging to British railwaymen, as they consider how nationalisation is proceeding and how their industry is developing, that that should be the wage situation and that wage claims should have to be restrained. I find that there is a readiness among the higher grades of railway workers to see an adjustment of the differential between the lower paid grades and the higher paid grades, but the general standard of wages in the lower grades of the railway workers is, in the view of many of us, a matter which will need urgent attention as soon as the Government can see their way to deal with it.
  On the other hand, the railwaymen are, of course, quite aware of advantages which have come their way since nationalisation. Matters like the abolition of rural rates of pay have been appreciated. In my own experience I have come across instances where the new rates have been appreciated. They are operating in the case of men who are downgraded in consequence of failing eyesight, and who are now, for that misfortune, under the new provisions, treated more generously than they were before.
  Speaking as the Member for a railway division—what may, perhaps, be described, at any rate in large part, as a railway division—I take this opportunity of impressing upon my right hon. Friend what, no doubt, he is already very well
  1126
  aware of, that there is a widespread feeling among our railway workers that the railways are not "our railways" at all—that the sense of ownership, and of participation in an industry of their own, which they hoped to feel, is one which, in large measure, they are not yet feeling. The whole system of joint consultation is at a very uneasy and experimental level.
  Hopes are entertained of the new sectional councils, the new regional boundaries, and the new promotion and redundancy schemes which are now being worked out or are ready to be put in operation. But the problem of stimulating morale, the sense of participation in their own industry, among railwaymen is not a problem which can be solved on paper it is not a problem which can be dealt with by preparing new schemes and new systems. It depends upon the outlook and the behaviour of the men in the key positions. It is that fact which makes it so extraordinarily difficult for an hon. Member of this House to make constructive proposals. He has got a human problem, and, as I say, it is not easily solved on paper by schemes put down in black and white.
  What are the men finding? So far as I can ascertain by my constant contacts with them—contacts all the closer in the last few weeks, when we were fighting the General Election—I have found that the practical men employed in the industry are in far too many cases given no opportunity of a voice in the management at local levels. They are constantly complaining about it. They thought that when nationalisation came along their opportunities of making contributions of a useful kind at local levels would be enhanced, and they have found nothing of the kind.
  There is also a sense of widespread dissatisfaction about promotion. Do not let it be thought for a moment that any of them are desirous of going back to the old dispensation. My right hon. Friend and hon. Friends on this side recognise that nothing could be further from the truth than that. It is a case of their having received rather less than they had hoped for. In the matter of promotion what seems to happen in a great many instances is this: the local officer makes his choice, and promotion from one grade to another in a particular instance takes place. Then there is a complaint that a

  1127
  better man has been passed over, and the men make a complaint, through the usual channels, to the managers about the promotion of one man who is less good than another man, one who is widely regarded as better.
  The men tell me they know perfectly well the managers' answer even before it it uttered. It is always the same. It is a stereotyped formula, "The most suitable choice was made." It comes as a formula, and exactly the same formula is then repeated at the higher level when the union head office representative puts the point to the chief regional officer's representative, "The most suitable choice was made." By that time, time is beginning to work its healing effect, and an atmosphere of stagnation and disillusionment and disappointment is apt to take the matter into control; and there is a good deal of feeling about that.
  The same considerations apply to the vast numbers of matters affecting the men's welfare, matters such as the schedules of special trains, dining car schedules, lodging turns, conditions of the signalmen's work, to mention only a few. I would mention this also while my right hon. Friend is being good enough to be here to hear what I have to say, that in the treatment of wage claims I have myself seen the most extraordinary tactless handling of the matter. My right hon. Friend will remember the occasion quite recently when the Railway Executive was prepared to make certain concessions, certain improvements, to the lower paid wage grades beneath a certain datum line. The very lowest paid grades under the proposed concessions were to receive quite reasonable advances which the men could consider seriously, but the people immediately beneath the datum line, of course, were going to receive, if the rule of thumb and the exact mathematical proportions were applied, a quite derisory—and they thought a quite insulting—advance.
  I happened to be present at a district branch meeting at which these proposals came down from on high, and the men who were present were investigating the effect of the proposals upon themselves. In the case of the grade which happened, at this district branch meeting, to be the most widely represented, the proposed changes offered to that grade an increase
  1128
  of 6d. a week. It was treated as an insulting and derisory offer, but it was the consequence, of course, of applying the rule of thumb, the mathematical formula and the mathematical calculation, to a matter upon which people are very touchy, namely, their own income, their status and their wages. This trouble could have been avoided by a more tactful, less inhuman handling of the matter.
  I have had, in the course of the last two years and more, a great many opportunities of talking with railwaymen at Edge Hill in all grades and in all branches of the industry, and they are aware, whichever way they turn, of this tendency to receive an inhuman, rule of thumb reaction to their problems and difficulties. They felt when nationalisation was first introduced that they would receive a more sympathetic and understanding reaction from authority, and the extent of the improvement which has occurred has, in fact, disappointed them.
  One is left with the question—if it is a difficulty of personnel, of the men who are to be selected, and of how men should behave—of what constructive suggestion can be made from these benches about what can best be done. I am convinced that the only thing we on this side can do on this particular matter is to keep on impressing upon the Minister and, through him, the Commission and the Executive, the vast importance of this factor of skilled man-management and a reasonable, sympathetic approach to these problems.
  It seems to me that there are two principles, in the main, which ought to be borne in mind. In the first stages of nationalisation there was a great deal of emphasis upon the necessity of continuity of management. The State was taking over the main line companies, and it was desirable, in a great number of cases, that men of experience and knowledge of the old companies should continue in the new system. I should like to think that as the nationalised industry is getting into its stride, so to speak, it may be possible to widen the field of selection and have less regard to that degree of continuity and administration and more regard possibly to sheer merit.
  The second factor which, I believe, can be of fundamental importance, and

  1129
  which can easily be misrepresented by hon. Members opposite, although I am not suggesting that they wish to do so, is that we must have in these key positions men who are heart and soul enthusiasts for the running of a publicly-owned enterprise and a publicly-owned industry. I am not proposing to mention names, but at all levels one comes across instances of persons holding appointments in the industry who have on record statements made by themselves which are critical of the whole conception of nationalised transport and State-owned industries. These men, with the best will in the world, are disadvantaged from having that prejudice, right or wrong, against a national publicly-owned industry.
  These are the two principles which I wish to put forward: less emphasis at this stage upon continuity among personnel and more emphasis on having in the key appointments men who are heart and soul enthusiasts for making a publicly-owned transport system a success. If that outlook prevails among the men in the key positions, then I believe that there will be such a response among the workers in the industry that it will have a great effect upon increasing the economic efficiency of the industry, and the doubters will doubt no more; and that those people in the country who are watching the development of the socialised industries with the greatest attention, and who are perhaps now inclined, vast numbers of them, to say, "Go slow," will be prepared to say, "Go ahead."
  5.33 p.m.
  Mr. McAdden: I am very greatful for this opportunity of addressing hon. Members for the first time, and I do so with more confidence than I might normally have, after witnessing the courtesy and consideration which hon. Members are always prepared to accord to those making their maiden effort.
  I listened with a great deal of attention to the hon. Member for Edge Hill (Mr. Irvine) and with a great deal of what he said in the early part of his speech I found myself in a considerable measure of agreement. I do not know whether that is due to the fact that my early political life was spent in the hon.
  1130
  Gentleman's constituency. Perhaps the mild air of Edge Hill and its surrounding districts has something to do with the fact that we find so much in common. I was interested to find one small measure on which I could disagree with him, and it is on this that I should like to base such few remarks as I have to address to the Committee.
  The hon. Member stressed the fact that it was supremely important to see that the conditions of the workers on the railways are improved to the greatest possible degree. I believe that is an extremely important thing, but I am one of those old-fashioned people who also believe that the job of a transport undertaking, whether road or rail, is to convey passengers and goods as efficiently and economically as possible from place to place. That is really its job. The provision of employment for a large number of people is incidental to the job it performs. One should get these things in their right order, and if one does that, one may find a more reasonable and practical solution to the difficulties that confront the British Transport Commission. This we will not do by pursuing the line that our principal and supreme objective is to see that the conditions of those employed in the industry are perfect, without having regard to the service that is provided. If we fail to provide the service, they will not have a job at all. I point that out at the outset, in order that it should not be thought that I bring to this discussion a parish-pump outlook.
  It is necessary for me to refer to my own constituency, not merely because I am proud of the constituency that I represent, but because it happens to be particularly applicable to the subject before the Committee. It so happens that we are one of those areas coming within the category of the London scheme, and that scheme, we are told, has been brought forward to be considered, as a basis of discussion before the Tribunal, as the method the British Transport Commission should seek to pursue, subject to due consideration of such objections as may he raised. It is important to Members from every other part of the country that this scheme should be considered in all its aspects, because I do not think that I misrepresent the Minister when I say that, in his view, the London scheme is a good one and may serve as a model for other

  1131
  schemes in the country. Members, although far removed from Southend, may do well to remember that in time, the arguments that apply in this particular case may apply elsewhere and apply to them.
  So far as my own division is concerned, we find that we are in a position in which the British Transport Commission are anxious to remove certain anomalies. In point of fact, they are creating more anomalies than exist at the moment. it so happens that my division is served by two railway stations, one at Fenchurch Street and the other at Liverpool Street. One station is classified by the Transport Commission as being outside the area and the other, 200 yards away, is classified as being inside the London area. The fares on one are to be maintained at the present rate, and the fares upon the other are to be increased. Surely that is a perpetuation of anomalies and not removal of them.
  So far as this question is concerned, it is not the object of the Committee, as the hon. Member for Edge Hill rightly pointed out, to try to solve these problems so that they look nice on paper. It is true that he was talking about a different problem, but the same argument applies. It is not the purpose of this Committee to try to plan a transport scheme on the basis that one can work out the transport needs of the community according to the number of miles that separate one place from another, without having due regard to the individual characteristics of different districts.
  I hope that I may have the support of the Minister on this matter, because he knows, as I do, that a very large number of his constituents come to my constituency from time to time. Incidentally, if this scheme is approved they will have to pay a jolly sight more in order to get there. I hope that I shall have his support on this matter because it is imperative for us to recognise that since the old Fenchurch Street-Tilbury-Southend railway line, some 36 miles long, was built, it has become a profitable line on the basis of a cheap season ticket. On the basis of the cheap season ticket—one of the lowest tariff rates in the country—we are at present conveying 20,000 people to work in London every day.
  1132
  These people have been persuaded to come from London and adjourning parts and to live some distance away from their work because of the attraction of a cheap season ticket. Some of them have purchased houses in Southend, and I hope that the fact of having done so in that particular district will not be held against them. Those who listened to the Debate on housing last night know quite as well as I do that it is impossible for them, merely because the Transport Commission wish to increase the fares, to say that they will leave Southend and live in London, near to their work. They cannot do it. They have been attracted to the district because of the inducement of a cheap season ticket, and if the Transport Commission put up these prices, as they seek to do, these people will be disadvantaged, because immediately their incomes will be considerably reduced, as a result of the suggested alterations in the tariff.
  These questions ought to be ventilated, and I think it is important that hon. Members should realise that what is happening in Southend now, may happen in, say, the Liverpool divisions when Southport is affected in due course; it may apply throughout the country. It is, therefore, important for us to remember that due consideration should be given by those who understand local conditions before suggestions of this nature are put before tribunals; and we should have the opportunity of more careful consideration of individual differences which are to be found from place to place.
  I have stated that the journey on the Southend-Tilbury-Fenchurch Street line is being treated as wholly within the London area, and that the Southend-Liverpool Street line is treated as outside the London area. We all remember the troubles associated with the Polish corridor, and I am sure we do not want a perpetuation of that trouble in a "Southend corridor." Southend is being treated as part of an area comprising London and its dormitory zones, but only so far as the Fenchurch Street line is concerned. Southend as a seaside resort, with an industry depending upon passenger transport, is totally ignored. As a matter of fact, Southend is the only seaside resort included in the scheme.
  The cost of such a scheme to the community income of Southend will be

  1133
  between £250,000 and £500,000 out of the £3½ million which the Transport Commission hope to receive. It is hoped that the income will be increased by some £3½ million, and they hope to get up to one-seventh of the increase out of the people who live in Southend and the surrounding constituencies. To my mind, that is not fair. That seems to me to place an undue hardship upon us; and it seems unjust that, at a time when we are already suffering from a high cost of living, these further demands should be made upon the purses of the people who have to travel from Southend to London, with a resultant reduction in their ability to spend their money in Southend and with the evil effects it will spread throughout the whole community.
  Last night in the House we heard something of the evils of price fixing; we were told that anybody who tries to maintain prices at a higher level than is necessary for the needs of the community is something of a traitor to the nation; that such a person ought to be wiped out of existence. But that is precisely what is happening here. I am sure the Minister knows as well as I do that what is happening in regard to the suggested increase in fares on the Southend line is not occasioned because the line is not running at a profit. It is. It has one of the lowest tariff rates in the country, and it has one of the highest profit rates in the country.
  That gives some force to the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) that one of the troubles with our railway industry is that the fares are too high, and that if they were brought down, more people might travel, so that we should make money instead of losing it. The Southend section of the line lends force to that argument, because there we find that although the tariff rate is very low the profit is very high. I hope that these factors will be borne in mind by the Minister.
  I, too, wish to quote from the book referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth, although held up to some scorn by the Minister. On page eight of the "Draft Outline of Principles Proposed to be Embodied in a Charges Scheme for Merchandise Traffic" we find that, in dealing with goods, this is the object of the scheme:
  1134
  "It is the object of the scheme, therefore, to avoid as far as practicable the complexities and inconsistencies which arise when departures are made from a soundly designed plan. It is realised that exceptional cases may arise where the development of a substantial flow of traffic is contingent upon the level of transport costs, and in such instances, the need and practicability of a departure from the plan in the form of a special rate or charge will be taken into consideration."
  If they are prepared to take account of special considerations in their calculations with regard to freight, then I think they should take account of special considerations in their calculations with regard to human beings, who have to travel from one place to another. One of the major troubles running throughout the labour problems of the British Transport Commission—and this is a point upon which the hon. Member for Edge Hill and myself find ourselves in entire agreement—is that these things cannot be solved on paper, no matter how pretty the plans look, without having some regard to individual characteristics and conditions.
  I should now like to refer to transport facilities by road as they affect the Eastern Region, of which my own constituency is a part. It is true that ours is one of the "guinea-pig" areas. The North-Eastern Region was the first, and we are second on the list. I think it is fair to say that we are second on the list because the Transport Commission, through their purchase of Tilling's, have already secured a large measure of control over some forms of transport within the area. What is preventing them from having a nicely integrated scheme—how they love the sound of that phrase "integrated scheme"—is the fact that a number of municipalities have excellent transport undertakings, which they have been running for years, in most cases at a profit and to the relief of the rates. Today it is suggested that they should be taken over and run by the British Transport Commission.
  To my mind, the same argument applies here. I am satisfied that the people who know best how to run the buses in Colchester are the people who live and work in and control the affairs of Colchester; I am sure they know how to do it much better than anybody else. If I may be permitted to refer to Southend again, I am certain that the Southend Corporation knows much better how to provide a municipal bus service,

  1135
  and run it effectively, than does the British Transport Commission. I am strongly opposed to this suggestion to place these things on a large regional basis, and to remove from the people on the spot, who know how to run these things, responsibility and the opportunity to operate the services satisfactorily. Every single one of the municipalities in the Eastern Region has strongly opposed this suggestion, and I hope that they will have the support of the Minister, so far as it lies within his power to give it.
  Now I should like to say a word or two about the suggested increase in freight charges. I know it is easy for people to say: "Well, 16⅔ per cent. is not very much." There is a point which I do not think has been mentioned in the debate so far, and that is that the 16⅔ per cent. is only half of what the increase will be. I do not know whether it has been brought to the attention of the Minister, but the actual suggestion is that the increase shall be 33⅓ per cent., not 16⅔ per cent. Let me try to clarify that. It is proposed to increase the charge 16⅔ per cent., but surely it has not escaped attention that a great variety of the articles which are conveyed by a transport service are, in these days of penal taxation, subject to Purchase Tax, in one form or another, so that, with Purchase Tax levied upon the free delivery price of the goods, if the cost of the carriage is put up by 16⅔ the cost of the Purchase Tax is also put up by 16⅔. Therefore, they will be paying twice, once through the Transport Commission and once through Purchase Tax.
  The increase can be very considerable, and hon. Members who have just returned from their constituencies—and I congratulate all of them upon that return—should also remember that the cost of living is a very live and important issue on which the British Transport Commission can have a very serious effect. From the time when we get up in the morning, this question of the cost of living is with us. We are wakened by an alarm clock on which we had to pay tax and we then switch on the light and on the bulb we had to pay tax. When we wash ourselves we use soap on which there is tax, and there is also tax to be paid on the toothbrush and on the toothpaste which we use when we clean our teeth. The knives and forks
  1136
  which we use at breakfast are subject to tax. And so it goes on all through the day.
  These increases in freight charges are going to be seriously reflected in the cost of living. I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will reflect upon the fact that the activities of the British Transport Commission are going to affect most seriously both them and their constituencies. It may be true that the suggested operation of the London charges scheme may not seem as real and as present a danger to hon. Members in some parts of the country as it seems to me, but if it is to be regarded as a model, sooner or later hon. Members in all parts of the Committee will have the matter brought to their attention by their constituents. It is better to look at it now while there is a chance of doing something about it, rather than to let the whole thing go on growing and growing until it becomes so cumbersome that we shall have lost control over the activities of the body which is under discussion this afternoon.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Percy Morris: It is inevitable that the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) should join issue with those of us who sit on this side of the House and who believe in nationalisation, but he has done so in such a delightful manner and with such felicitous phrasing and has revealed such a sense of humour that I hope he will not think it presumptuous on my part if I offer him the congratulations of the Committee on his maiden effort, and express the hope that in future whenever he differs from us he will continue to do so in such an excellent spirit. The history of railway facilities to and from Southend goes back a long way, and I am quite certain that we could spend a very interesting hour examining why certain things happened in years gone by; but that is outside our province today, though perhaps I may have an opportunity of talking to the hon. Member about it on some other occasion.
  I must confess that I thought the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) spoke with more heat than light this afternoon. He complained very bitterly of the railways' deficits, and then found fault with my right hon. Friend for submitting specific proposals to over-

  1137
  come those deficits. The purpose of Section 76 of the Transport Act is to enable the Commission to provide an adequate, economic, and properly integrated system of inland transport and to conduct their business on a self-supporting basis. The hon. Member must appreciate that the whole tenor of his speech was a criticism not of the Commission but of its predecessors.
  The hon. Gentleman asked for an infusion of fresh blood into the Commission. I do not quarrel with that, but I am surprised that he was so critical of the men who are now in authority, because the Minister of Transport accepted, in the first instance, the men who were nominated and given the authority by those who formerly owned British Railways. For instance, the chairman of the Railway Executive was formerly the general manager of the Southern Railway, and the gentleman who is virtually in charge of the division for the revision of freight rates was vice-president of the L.M.S. and is one of its best statisticians, a man, in fact, whose ability none will deny. The chairman of the Transport Commission has nearly 40 years' experience of the work of the railways, and in the ordinary way it would have been thought that such a man would have made a ready appeal to hon. Members opposite. If the Minister of Transport is able to infuse a little fresh blood, we shall be very glad to give him some names, because up to now the charge of finding jobs for the boys has not been made out and must be entirely repudiated.
  The history of the railways demonstrates that our present plight is not anything new. I have spent the best part of 40 years in the railway service, and I have never known them in other than financial difficulty. It was in 1938 that the Transport Advisory Committee, a non-political body, advised the Government of the day that, unless something was done to give the railways a square deal, railway finances and business would end in utter chaos.
  I reminded the House on a previous occasion that the general managers and directors of the former railway companies appealed to the staffs to tour the country asking for a square deal for the British railway system. They suggested that we ought to try to address rotary clubs,
  1138
  chambers of commerce and public bodies, demonstrating to them that the conditions in which the railways were working were totally unfair as compared with road transport. We complained that the advice offered to the railway managers by the railway unions 20 years ago to take an interest in road transport had been rejected, but we gave them our cooperation and we said we would help to get a square deal. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the war intervened.
  The railway managers suddenly became alive to the threat of road transport, and they started buying up road transport concerns. The hon. Member for Monmouth complained that my right hon. Friend was doing that, but he was merely following the precedent set by the former railway companies, who bought up where they could and paid rather high prices with one simple object in mind—to deprive themselves of competition. The right hon. Gentleman, who has the task of integrating and co-ordinating transport, cannot be blamed if he follows that precedent.
  I wish the hon. Member for Monmouth had pointed to a vital difference between the railways and road transport. The railways are common carriers and must accept everything. Road transport are able to pick and choose, and, in effect, that means that the railways have to take the heavy stuff and road transport can have the cream and the most profitable side. That obviously is a very unfair system altogether.
  During the election I did not see in any newspaper or hear in the speech of any hon. Member opposite that if the Tories were returned to power they proposed to de-nationalise the railways. They accept the policy, and I suggest to them very seriously now that it is a responsibility upon their shoulders as well as upon ours to make nationalisation a success. In order to do it, they must give us the necessary authority to make legitimate charges, both in respect of passenger and freight traffic. I have heard it suggested several times this afternoon that the fares are too high, and that consequently people will not travel by train. The inference is that the fares should be halved; but surely it is appreciated that if the fares were halved and we carried double the number of passengers, that would add nothing at all to our revenue.

  1139
  Last May the Minister of Transport addressed a conference of 600 delegates representing the clerical, administrative, supervisory, professional and technical staffs of British railways. He appealed to them to exercise all the powers that they could to make transport a great public asset and a profitable concern. They accepted his invitation, but what they cannot understand is that if the masters in the iron and steel world, in the timber world, in cement or any such commodity find it necessary to put up their charges to meet increased costs, there is no public outcry at all. As soon as somebody suggests that, in order to meet the heavy additional costs which the railway industry has to bear, we should increase the charges, great public indignation is expressed by hon. Members on the other side of the Committee.
  May I remind hon. Members that the charges which the industry has to bear are very considerable. They include an increase of something like 80 per cent. in respect of steel, 174 per cent. for coal and more than 600 per cent. for certain kinds of oil, canvas and timber, which are all things for which the railways are very great customers. They have all gone up to tremendous price levels, while the charges made by the railways have not approached those levels to any extent. It is manifestly unfair, if the railway industry is to be efficient and to give public service, that we should decline to give it the necessary sinews of industrial warfare. The proposals that the Minister makes are reasonable and are the minimum proposals to ease the position in the London area.
  The railway section of the transport industry has to earn £24 million per annum to pay the interest on the stock. I make no complaint about that. The bargain must be kept and the payment made, but if we are not allowed to earn the money to do so in a legitimate way then the £24 million per annum must be borne by the general exchequer and not be a burden on the railway industry. If we are expected to wash our own faces and keep them clean, we ought to be given the material necessary to do so. I would further remind the Committee that railway men of all grades are at the tail end of the queue in respect of wages and salaries. They have exercised a restraint which makes me feel very proud
  1140
  of them. We have found it very difficult to prevail upon them to continue that restraint. As my hon. Friend the Member for Edge Hill (Mr. Irvine) pointed out, thousands of these men are earning less than £5 per week. Even the Railway Executive had to concede that there is cause for complaint in regard to basic wages and salaries. Their only opposition to an increase was that overtime, Sunday duty and night duty were added to the men's pay and helped the pay packet a little. Railwaymen are not in isolation. They believe that they should have more leisure and be able to cultivate the arts. They think that overtime, Sunday duty and night duty are penalties that should be avoided wherever possible.
  Unless the railway industry is given a reasonable opportunity to impose charges that can be justified on a mathematical basis, and even on a business basis, there must be a subsidy from some other source. I warn the Government very seriously that unless they give heed to that aspect of the matter, we cannot hold out any hope of continued industrial peace on British Railways. At the same time, there is a desire in the hearts and minds of railwaymen to play their part in the economic recovery of Great Britain. They are anxious, as hitherto, to maintain industrial peace. They are prepared to take the rough with the smooth and they ask for an opportunity to make a coordinated, integrated transport system a great success. When we find that the key positions are held by men who were formerly held in high esteem by hon. Members opposite we will not complain, provided that as time goes on and new opportunities present themselves, the men and women in the industry who can demonstrate by their work and by their character that they can make a contribution shall be given more frequent opportunities to reach the top of the ladder.
  The opportunity is with the Government, and the opportunity ought to be seized to give the transport industry the facilities to which it is entitled. Let the men feel that there is a prospect of their work being properly paid for, and then they will render to the people of Great Britain the same efficient service as they have given for the last 50 or 60 years.
  6.5 p.m.
  Sir Ronald Ross: I shall not attempt to follow the line taken

  1141
  by the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. P. Morris) on the question of wages, except to say that I think it is apparent to all of us that if we start subsidising wages in one industry, there may be other industries which will consider that they should have equally favourable treatment. As regards the railways on the whole, the hon. Member adopted rather a pathetic line. The pathos was even greater in the speech made by the Minister, who relied upon bringing tears to our eyes about his difficult situation, in order to get out of some the criticisms which have been made about the service. I cannot think he really has very much to complain of. He got all the railway services, which are incomparable, for nothing. If he had had to build them, the cost would have been many times greater than was paid to the railway companies when the undertakings were nationalised.
  Again, under the present system, British Railways have every advantage, including some advantages which the railway companies did not possess. Let me give an instance. When property belonging to a Government Department, like the Army, the Navy, the Air Force or the Ministry of Supply, was lost, as it sometimes is, the railway companies had to pay, but now that loss comes on the Vote of the Department concerned. That creates a different position, and represents an indirect subsidy which the railway companies did not have. However, I wish to consider several points affecting one of the farthest distant parts of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, which I have tried to bring to the attention of the Minister before.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: The hon. Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Ross) referred to remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West, about subsidising a certain class of worker, which the hon. Member did not think would be a very good thing. If an industry is not to be permitted to earn a revenue because of the direct charge it must be upon the economy of the country, does that not rather mean that the railway service is subsidising the other industries of the country?
  Sir R. Ross: I think the hon. Member is misled and that when he thinks the
  1142
  matter over calmly he will form a different opinion. I have great hopes today of getting an answer from the Minister. The last time I spoke, for a very short time, the debate was much too short. There was a speech from the Parliamentary Secretary which was a masterful anticipation of the election campaign. The speech was very good from the electioneering point of view, but it did not contain one word in answer to the points which I had put. I have been trying to extract an answer by correspondence, without success at the present time. The Parliamentary Secretary has run away to sea. He is not here now.
  Northern Ireland is probably more dependent upon transport than any other part of the United Kingdom. Our raw materials are obtained from Great Britain and our finished articles go back there. We send enormous quantities of food over. In some cases, steel, for instance, the material goes to build ships in Belfast and is affected only one way, because the ships carry themselves away. My constituency's main industry is shirt manufacture. We get cotton cloth from Lancashire, with which county we have a very close connection. We send back the finished articles to the British market, as a rule. Every rise in freight rates on British Railways and the cross-channel steamers very seriously and adversely affects us. I look with the gravest apprehension at the question of putting freight rates up still higher.
  It is not that we are having a frightfully good service. The service is deteriorating. I have in my hand a letter from the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce, one passage from which reads as follows:
  "Several complaints have been received that shirts have been badly damaged and, in some cases, totally destroyed. These shirts are sent forward in special containers and they have been allowed to remain in the open and water has soaked in, with fatal results. Delays are very frequent, both in the arrival of cloth and in the delivery of shirts."
  One of my constituents has said that the time it took to come from Londonderry to England was comparable with the time it took to come from West Africa to London. He had worked out the times and had found a slight advantage in the case of West Africa. That really is not good enough, and the service should be much better than it is at present.

  1143
  The reason it is not better is that it is not given any kind of appropriate priority. The British Railways seem to be obsessed with the idea of traffic to the Continent. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson), who said that instead of trying to increase traffic to the Highlands, and to Northern Ireland, which is also a delightful place, the emphasis is laid on traffic to and from the Continent, where people spend British currency outside the sterling area.
  We see that particularly as regards the shipping services. Never once since the railway shipping services have been under the management of the Transport Commission have we been given any assistance by ships which normally run to the Continent. Constantly, however, ships are taken off Northern Ireland routes and put on to the Continental routes. We have had much the most crowded routes and probably the most paying ones. Sailing tickets were never necessary on any other routes; they were never heard of for France, Belgium or Holland. They were put on to limit the number of people travelling to Northern Ireland, and at the same time ships were taken away and put on the Continental routes. One of the Heysham ships, the "Duke of York," has been taken away permanently and has been running between Harwich and Holland, thus depriving us of our Sunday night service. If I or any of my colleagues go back on Saturday and wish to be in this House on Monday, we must fly, and there is no flying terminus within 60 miles of where I want to be.
  Again, the ships on the service have not been properly reconditioned. The beautiful, nickel-plated splendour of the ships running to the Continent is not reflected in those running to Northern Ireland which have done honourable war work. Many have shellholes in them as a result of gallant service on the coasts of France and elsewhere. Some were lost, but the others have never been properly reconditioned and one can still see the crash panels in the door through which people were supposed to scramble when the ship was submerged. They ought to be properly reconditioned and made to look attractive, instead of this work being directed entirely to ships running to the Continent.
  1144
  The only ship that has been built for the Northern Ireland run has been to replace the motor carrier the "Princess Victoria," sunk when she was working for the Admiralty as a minelayer. Yet one sees on other services new ships built by the Transport Commission, notably the new ships running from Holyhead to Kingstown. I do not grudge them that, but it is extraordinary that the Transport Commission have paid so much attention to the needs of the citizens of Eire that the best ship on the Larne and Stranraer route, the "Princess Maud," an oil-fired vessel, was taken off her proper work and stationed at Holyhead in case some of those people had not quite enough transport. The result is that those who have to sleep on board the "Princess Margaret," which is coal-fired, hear thunderous avalanches of coal all night and get no sleep, just because a good ship was taken away and a much older ship was left.
  The service was far better looked after when it was under independent railway management. If the Minister will listen to me—everyone always says that, but I would like his attention at this moment—I will compare the pre-war situation with the situation under the British Transport Commission on the services running to Northern Ireland from London. In pre-war days the Heysham service left at ten minutes past six; now it leaves at a quarter to five. The service to Stranraer used to leave at twenty minutes to eight, now it leaves at six-thirty. I have already said, as regards the Heysham service, that the Sunday service has been abolished because the ship has been "pinched" by the Minister and is being used at Harwich.
  As regards the Stranraer service, the system is beautifully arranged. One starts much earlier than before, arrives at Stranraer and then has to wait about three hours before the ship sails. I cannot imagine why, with all the wisdom of railway management, they cannot arrange a train which arrives in reasonable time, say with not more than an hour to wait before the ship sails. As it is, probably having got up at five o'clock in the morning, one arrives at the port and just sits on the ship. It is a thoroughly uncoordinated system, and the local services from Newcastle-on-Tyne and elsewhere are equally bad.

  1145
  Then I come to the Liverpool services. Here British Railways appear to have made a dead set against private enterprise, because the Liverpool boats are not under British Railways. They have so arranged their train service that it is the worst imaginable from the point of view of those travelling by these boats. In the old days one left Euston at five minutes past six; now one has to leave Euston at a quarter to four. There is another train, but it is so carefully arranged that it just misses the boat. That seems to me to be a most deliberate and determined plot to try to give the worst service possible to the competing line of ships. If, before the war, a train could leave Euston at five minutes past six, I cannot see why that should not happen now. There are plenty of people who wish to travel that way, and it is lengthening the journey unnecessarily. The same applies to a great extent to the Stranraer journey.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland said, all the emphasis is being laid on travel to the Continent, travel out of the British Isles, and we are apparently under the ban that anything is good enough for Northern Ireland. Ours is probably the best paying section of the services, and the right hon. Gentleman should know that there is grave dissatisfaction at the way these services are being managed and run. They are more expensive and far worse than they were before the war; there are unaccountable delays and an increased proportion of damage to goods. In no direction can I see anything except deterioration.
  My own view is that if the ships were handed over to the Ulster transport authority, we should get a very much better service. It is our lifeblood and vital to us. The Transport Commission seem to take a very light view of the whole thing and to transfer the ships to Continental services without due regard for the needs of their fellow citizens in other parts of the United Kingdom. I hope that the Minister will be able to answer some of these things, and I hope still more that attention will be given to trying to improve these services
  6.21 p.m.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: I would not wish to follow the
  1146
  hon. Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Ross) into the various aspects of the Northern Ireland services, but, with his indulgence and that of the Committee, I would continue the point about subsidising the railways in the event of their not getting sufficient in terms of profit to pay for wages, and the Government's having to come to the assistance of the men in the industry.
  I take the view that the request now before the Minister and the Government that the rates should be moderately increased by 16⅔ per cent. upon their present reasonable basis, must be accepted if we are to say at the outset that, at least, the Government will not consider relieving the Transport Commission of some of its obligations in terms of compensation, or that its hands are not to be tied in the way which is proposed by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  The argument which is put forward is simply that if we were to raise transport charges the effect would be to increase the cost of goods for export and of all commodities, both raw materials and those which we manufacture, and that this would be a very bad thing. Certainly, there is some justification for that argument. As the Minister has made clear, however, the railway companies and the various units of our transport industry have, like other business houses, to consume a quantity of raw materials and semi-manufactured articles, for which they have to pay the market price and, above all, in the case of coal, the greatly enhanced price. If their rates are to be tied down to a figure of some 50 or 60 per cent. above pre-war, the railways will not have a chance to operate on a proper economic basis. Under these conditions the effect would be that, far from our subsidising wages, the railways and the railwaymen would be subsidising the trade of the country.
  It may well be that that viewpoint could be justified, that it might be a good thing to stabilise the railway rates at their present level or even to reduce them. Some people, in fact, hold the view that in some forms of economic organisation we should not bother about charges in terms of profit and loss as far as freight rates are concerned, but that it is vital to the interests and the commercial life of the country that we should have a first-class transport system cheaply and

  1147
  almost irrespective of cost. It will be agreed on all sides, however, that without a first-class, most efficient transport service we should be losing something in terms of the trade of the country.
  When the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) gets up and flagellates himself, as he did today, and says that all our troubles are newly-born and part and parcel of what has happened since 1947; he is very naïve if he thinks he can mislead the Committee and the country. I do not think, however, that he is as naive as that; he is very well informed upon these matters. As my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. P. Morris), has today so clearly shown, many of the problems now confronting us are not new at all, but have pursued us for a generation. As practical railwaymen, who have worked in the administrative and operating sides of railways, many of us on these benches have known throughout the last 25 years that the railway companies have had a problem to balance their budgets and to make their industry pay. It has been a contracting industry, and if we overlook these things we shall not be facing the facts.
  The coming of the internal combustion engine completely revolutionised the railway industry, and this process still continues. Whatever else is done, our railways will have to be radically re-organised and modernised, and much of the dead wood—not in terms of overhead administration, as some people may think, but in terms of outworn equipment—will have to be removed. It should be one of the most urgent tasks of the Transport Commission, projecting their minds as far as they can over the next 20 or 50 years, to decide what is to be the function of the railways, and then, having decided that, to build up the ancillary and surrounding industries. With the coming of the internal combustion engine the railway companies can, quite obviously, no longer serve the community as they were called upon to do in the 19th century.
  The system of charges, as has already been said, is a most complex and difficult matter and I, as a practical railwayman, do not complain of the time which the settlement of this question is taking. I am however, impatient and anxious to see the new system introduced for the
  1148
  various sides of the industry. After all, after the 1921 Act it was some seven or eight years before we were able to straighten out the rates and charges.
  Mr. Harrison: It was 10 years.
  Mr. Davies: My hon. Friend reminds me that it was 10 years; my estimate was a modest one. I well remember that in 1928 we were still wrestling with that problem. Far more difficult, however, is the present situation, where we are dealing with water, road and rail transport and seeking to establish what shall be the reasonable place and function of each of these services.
  Hon. Members on all sides will agree that if we are to hold our place in the world as a great exporting nation, we want nothing less than the best transport system. In my view, that will call for great capital expenditure, which I do not think can be related to an annual balance sheet. Vast sums of money will have to be spent on electrification. I am glad to see something of the experiments now taking place in the Western Region which will reduce the running costs of locomotives and lessen the consumption of coal. The closing down of some of the branch lines is bound to follow. There will be a centralisation and radial distribution of traffic, which can be done very much better with the use of the internal combustion engine than by the old-fashioned methods of operation.
  The railwaymen are today very disgruntled. They are, nevertheless, appreciative of much of what has been done in giving them an opportunity for increased consultation. They have been promised that an educational system will be devised which will enable men from the humblest ranks to rise to the highest executive positions, and they are promised that on the great matters of reorganising the industry they will be consulted. All this process, however, is not yet fully appreciated at the lowest level, but it is our hope that a proper appreciation of all these improvements will percolate down to all levels.
  But a start has been made and we are appreciative. In matters of welfare, and so on, certain practical proposals have been made, but let none of us be under any illusion about this. We inherited, as the Minister of Town and Country Planning, a former Chancellor of the

  1149
  Exchequer, said, "a poor bag of physical assests" when we took over the railways—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—Oh, yes. Unlike some hon. Members opposite, I have worked for a generation in many stations and I know some of the conditions under which my colleagues had to work. They were a disgrace to any commercial undertaking and to a Christian country. Because they were exempted from Home Office inspection, there were dark holes and festering hovels. Many of them continue and one could not expect that the Commission could radically alter these things in a short time. A great deal of money has to be spent on there improvement and on the staff. Railwaymen have done a good job of work and in some places machinery was metaphorically, if not literally, tied up with pieces of string, but they carried the traffic and we are proud of their efforts. But their patience is running out rapidly.
  With my colleague the hon. Member for Swansea, West, I have had something to do with persuading railwaymen to hold back demands. We contended that in the present condition of the country we could not keep on increasing wages. We succeeded in that contention, but I must confess that today the men are very dissatisfied, especially those referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Edge Hill (Mr. Irvine) who referred to basic wages of less than £5 per week. Can any hon. Member in any part of the Committee say that a man can be expected to keep his family in decency on such a wage, taking into account all the great social benefits we have had under the Labour Government, especially when they see men in new industries getting twice, and perhaps three times, that sum of money? They are not likely to be content. Therefore, I must ask the Minister to recognise that if we are not to have a system of charges which will enable us to earn a revenue and to pay a decent wage to the man in the industry, he must look out for trouble on that front. The men must have economic justice and their claims ought to have been attended to, in some instances, before now.
  Some of us believed that integration of the transport services of this country was the only means of getting a first-class system of transport. There was no future for the railways apart from it. If ever the Tories are returned to power and de-
  1150
  cide that the railways shall not be de-nationalised but that the profitable road transport shall be denationalised, I warn them they will have to enact extensive legislative control over the road side of the industry to give justice and parity to the railways.
  As the hon. Member for Monmouth rightly pointed out, the industry has grown up over a century and the railways have had to build their charges system upon a classification described as what the traffic would bear. It was superseded by flat rates and other things afterwards, but it is completely outmoded and if road transport were denationalised in equity something would have to be done, if we agree that railways are to continue as a transport service. How vitally necessary they are, not only in times of peace, but in war, has been proved and they have to be given an opportunity to earn revenue and to continue. The road system could not be set free to skim off the cream of the traffic while the railways were left without assistance.
  What is the Minister doing to speed up the acquisition of the road side of the industry? We have heard of the difficulties in the North East area and elsewhere and some of my colleagues and I are impatient that greater progress has not been made. The Minister has told us of great progress on the freight side in acquiring road vehicles, but very little progress has been made on the passenger side and, unless we get reasonably complete integration, we cannot see that the problems of charges and proper functioning of the several aspects of the industry can ever be solved. I hope that if the legislation framed in 1947 is inadequate for the job with which the Commission is confronted amending legislation will be put on the Statute Book, so that we can get on with the job and do good work.
  6.36 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: I must crave the indulgence of the Committee on this, the first occasion on which I have had the honour of addressing it. I suppose that all new Members must feel on coming here rather like the new boy at a boarding school: rather wondering what the position will be and very apprehensive as to whether their own views about themselves will be shared by the older boys, particularly in the upper VIth. Of course, as Parliamentary democracy

  1151
  means government by discussion and government by discussion implies that there must be considerable differences of opinion, it seems a very good thing that there is a tradition in the House that a new Member making his maiden speech should seek not to be too controversial lest he should outwear the patience of those listening to him, for whose indulgence he is asking.
  I should hardly have ventured to speak in this Debate at all, because it is rather difficult for a Conservative to speak non-controversially about the affairs of a nationalised industry, but I believe I am the only Member on this side of the Committee who has actually been a railway employee and who has had experience as a railway employee since nationalisation. For 19 years I was an assistant solicitor in the legal department of the Great Western Railway and for one year with British Railways. The legal department comes into contact with all grades and I have experience of all parts of the line from London to Chester and Chester to Penzance and have dealt with all departments and all grades from the chief regional officer down to the fifth grade clerks and carriage cleaners. So I have had some opportunities of seeing how the railway service works from below.
  As I am trying to be non-controversial, I take it that there is no dispute in this Committee that we all want a good and efficient transport service. That means that to be efficient it must be a transport service that pays, because that seems to be implied in efficiency. The railways were built by man and by man they must be run. Railway losses are not an act of God, nor are they an inevitable accident. If there are losses—and there are losses at present—I take it that our problem here is to try to think of ways and means of avoiding those losses and to make practical suggestions as to how they can be overcome and what is best to be done to get out of that situation.
  I do not intend to deal with many of the proposals which could be made, as some of them are beyond the scope of this Debate, since they involve changes in legislation. Some hon. Members have alluded to a number of them which we cannot develop here. They referred to our policy at the General Election. Of course,
  1152
  we did not propose to de-nationalise the railways, but we had other proposals which would have involved alterations in legislation. Nor can we pursue the line of argument dealing with the "square deal" before the war, because that also involved getting rid of many obsolete Acts which are still hanging round the neck of the railways like the Albatross round the neck of the Ancient Mariner, ancient provisions imposed by Parliament in its wisdom in the days when the railways were a monopoly, but which are no longer valid.
  I refer, for instance, to Section 68 of the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, relating to railway fencing, which has been a source of trouble to railway managers and a profitable source of income to railway solicitors for the last 100 years. All these are outside the scope of this Debate. Then there are such questions as the very complicated matter of railway rates and charges which has been dealt with and will be dealt with by other hon. Members.
  I wish to concentrate on one point which is very often overlooked, and which seems to me to have an important bearing on this matter. It seems to be forgotten that in this island of ours, when institutions have been in existence for a long time they tend to develop into organisms rather than organisations. In other words they develop a spirit of their own, become a corporate unit, develop a language of their own and a spirit of their own apart from their own individual members.
  The railways of this country were constructed 100 years ago. Certainly the railway which I had the honour to serve had been in existence during the whole 100 years under the same name. It developed a language of its own, as anyone who has worked at Paddington even for a short time will know. For example. the not very attractive space between the hotel and the end of the platform is known as "The Lawn." I suppose because grass once grew there. Many of the trains are known to the staff by special names which do not appear in time tables. It is still, or was quite recently, common to describe one train as the "Zulu," a name which referred to a railway engine long since defunct. Another was described as "The Owl." I never discovered why, but I think because an

  1153
  owl was discovered in the tender on one occasion. The most famous of all G.W.R. trains, the "Cornish Riviera" is never referred to by that name but always as "The Limited." When expressions and a language of its own, grow up in any organisation like that, it ceases to be an organisation and becomes an organism, it has a corporate unity, a spirit of its own, a tradition with which it is unfortunate to interfere.
  One of the main criticisms which I make of the railway service under nationalisation is that there were too many changes for change's sake. I may say that I resigned from the service one year after nationalisation. My reason was that as a prospective Conservative candidate I saw no reason to alter my previous opinion that nationalisation was not in the best interests of the staff or the travelling public, and I thought that it was not proper for someone expressing those views in public also to be a junior officer in the railway service. I resigned for that reason. Whether that was right or wrong is a matter for controversy which I will not pursue. As I say, after nationalisation, all sorts of things were done which seemed to me to be quite unnecessary. Even the colours were altered for no particular reason, and very curious colours were substituted. I believe that the official designation of one set of colours put on the rolling stock was "plum and spilled milk," which sounded like a dirty tablecloth, and very soon began to look like a dirty tablecloth, too, and ultimately I am glad to say was discontinued.
  All these unnecessary changes had a disturbing effect on the staff. They rather spoiled the corporate unity, and it must be remembered, so far as the Great Western was concerned, that it was a family railway. A large proportion of the staff are the sons and grandsons of Great Western men who have been brought up with the railway. They did not like changes which seemed to them unnecessary, and which spoiled the spirit of the railway which had continued for so long. The crowning folly of all was that promotion ceased to be by region. I know from my own experience that many men in the railway service have often remained in it in the past, although drawing lower salaries than they could have earned elsewhere, solely for sentimental reasons. To start altering all the names, giving new
  1154
  names to old jobs, new colours, and so on, destroyed prestige, and the value of that connection was gone.
  In the past the War Office has often been criticised for too much red tape, but even then they never contemplated abolishing the Grenadier Guards because they ceased to be armed with grenades. Yet that sort of thing was constantly going on in the nationalised railway service. There seemed to be no appreciation of the value of tradition and too much attention was being given to paper work and altering things for the sake of altering them. I have always defined Conservatism as a balanced attitude of mind which seeks to apply the lessons of past experience to the problems of the present. I do not expect hon. Members opposite to accept that definition; I do not even expect my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee to accept it; but I suggest that as a business maxim it is of some value—that one should apply to the problems of today the experience of the past. Surely the experience of organisations everywhere is that there is great value in tradition, and we in this Committee should realise that more than anyone else. One of my criticisms of the alterations in the nationalised railway service is that that factor has been entirely disregarded.
  In conclusion, I urge that we pay far more attention to tradition in the railway service, that we should not make any further changes merely for the sake of making changes, and that we should seek to close the gap—I am not referring to the dollar gap but to the equally dangerous gap which unfortunately exists between the British Transport Commission and the Railway Executive and the even greater gap which exists between the Railway Executive and the regions. I think that the efficiency of the lines would be greatly improved if a great deal more authority were given to the man on the spot.
  In the railway service there is at all grades great responsibility resting on the man on the spot, and that must always be so. That extends down to grades which are not high in the service—the signalman in his lonely box on a branch line, a ganger walking his length. In many other grades too there are people who are taking great responsibility and on whose skill and ingenuity the con-

  1155
  tinuance of the railway depends. Even the goods porter, whom I have seen in some of those conditions to which the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mr. Edward Davies) has referred—conditions which I agree are not good, in dark and places—has great responsibility, for he can cause quite a lot of damage by carelessness when handling goods unless he appreciates the value of his work and has a pride in his job. He, too, has to act with responsibility, a responsibility which will be fostered by getting back to the unit system and by giving a pride in the job to the local unit. Finally, I suggest that a real attempt be made to carry into effect the words which appear in the first annual report of the British Transport Commission, to give the maximum devolution of authority in the regions to the regional and divisional officers in regard to executive action.
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. Monslow: i am sure I express the sentiments of hon. Members in conveying to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) our heartiest congratulations on an excellent maiden speech. I would also express the hope that we shall have further contributions from him on the many complex problems with which this House deals from time to time.
  Having passed from the realms of the non-controversial, I must enter the realms of the controversial. I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) when he suggested that the Transport Commission might be superseded by a body of business men. As an ex-railwayman my reply would be that we have had that business experience in the past, and it left British transport in a sorry plight. It is true that the problem of transport enters into every aspect of industry and of private life, and I am astonished that the Opposition should try to demonstrate that they are always the custodians of the public purse. I recall very vividly the years 1919, 1920 and 1921, when the Government of that time subsidised the British Railways. In 1919 and 1920 they subsidised the British railways to the extent of £42 million, and in 1920 and 1921 to the extent of £51 million. Apparently they claim that to subsidise private enterprise now which, it
  1156
  is true, is running at a loss, must be considered as a crime, but that to subsidise private enterprise then, in the manner which I have indicated, was a virtue.
  The hon. Member for Monmouth suggested that the problem of transport should be considered as separate entities, that is to say, that rail, road and canal transport should be treated as separate entities. I would suggest that the hon. Member is completely divorced from the realities of the situation if that is his contention. I am not unmindful of the fact that the attitude of the Opposition today in discussing this problem of transport as a nationalised undertaking, is indicative of the spirit which they demonstrated in the last Parliament when they put forward such virulent opposition to all forms of nationalisation. In my opinion, and in that of other hon. Members on this side of the House, we have reached the stage when the future of all forms of nationalised transport should be examined with a view to a greater devolution of authority. There must be integration, giving a complete implementation of a policy which seeks co-ordination of rail, road and canal transport. It has been suggested by Conservative and Liberal Members, not only here but during the election, that the road transport section of the industry should be taken out, to leave the rail section to function on its own. That, in my view, could only end in disaster.
  In following such a suggestion no thought is given to what is to happen to the railways, which are the main artery of our economic life. Also, no attention is given to what is to happen to railwaymen in particular. If railways were dealt with as a separate entity there is only one way out of the dilemma in which we should find ourselves. That is by making an attack upon those engaged in the industry by a reduction of wage rates. I wish to say, quite frankly, that certain railway wages are at the moment below subsistence level. Railwaymen have decided, whatever may be the views of the Opposition, that no longer will they be exploited, whether by private enterprise or under nationalisation, by having their wage standards further reduced. Since the advent of nationalisation we have been able to protect the wage standards of the railway servants.

  1157
  The hon. Member for Monmouth referred to increased freight and rail charges. I would remind him that if there is an increase it is entirely due to the fact that we have approximately 100 per cent. wage increase to the conciliation and shop staffs. I would also remind him that coal has gone up by approximately 175 per cent.
  Brigadier Thorp: Under nationalisation?
  Mr. Monslow: Yes, we can deal with the nationalization—
  Brigadier Thorp: Of coal?
  Mr. Monslow: As the hon. and gallant Member has made that interjection may I say that I remember, in 1947, the nationalised coal industry having a deficit of £23 million. But we hear very little from hon. Gentlemen opposite now that we are making a profit of £10 million, as was made last year.
  Brigadier Thorp: By increasing the price of coal.
  Mr. Monslow: I will deal with that. After the advent of nationalisation we ought at least to recognise that we gave £63 million to the miners of this country to improve the economic situation so far neglected by the Opposition in past years. Having done that in the transition stage we then made a profit of £10 million. So, also, in the case of the electricity industry; and in the transport industry. We shall make a profit when we integrate road, rail and canal transport.
  I wish to deal with the price levels in respect of what railways have to carry, because the average increase in charges has been only approximately 55 per cent. When we examine this problem dispassionately, divorced from our political philosophies, we have to recognise that these charges must be met. General timber charges have increased by 225 per cent.; railway timber, sleepers and crossings, charges by 344 per cent.; and paint and colours, 254 per cent. Oil and lubricating costs, rather an important matter to railway locomotion, have gone up by 215 per cent.
  Mr. Collick: That is private enterprise.
  Mr. Monslow: Then there are metals, non-ferrous, 148 per cent.; and iron and steel 80 per cent. Hon. Members opposite are inclined to make destructive criticism without making any concrete proposals for dealing with this problem. Whatever may be their views on this problem, the railwaymen have made up their minds. I warn the Opposition now that the railwaymen will not accept a situation in which the road section of the industry is treated differently from the railways, thus impoverishing or pauperising those left in the railways. Those days have gone. The days of exploitation will cease, and we shall see to it, as railway workers, that in this industry we maintain our wage standards and, indeed, improve them, even through the medium of nationalisation.
  7.1 p.m.
  Mr. David Renton: The hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Monslow) appears to assume that integration will solve the railways' financial problem and the great long-term problem which we all understand—or, at any rate, we know exists—of competition between road and rail. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman is quite wrong in thinking that integration will solve the problem. All that integration will do, so far as the railways are concerned, will be to pass on the problem in part to the roads. The only solution, if there be a satisfactory solution—and I am prepared to concede that it is doubtful—if the British Transport Commission and the Government between them can do anything about it, is to do two things which at the moment are not being attempted. One is to stop inflation and bring down costs. The other is to make radical reorganisation of the railways which, quite apart from integration, we always understood was one of the objects of transport nationalisation. But what has happened? The Government are finding that their own policy, which has led to inflation, is preventing their nationalisation policy from succeeding, The Government are hoist on their own petard. Socialism is preventing Socialism from being a success,
  Mr. Monslow: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that what was embodied in,the Tory manifesto, upon which they fought the election, would have led to a situation of greater inflation?
  Mr. Renton: I do not know, Major Milner, whether I should be in Order in dealing at length with that somewhat irrelevant interruption; but perhaps you will permit me to say that we are convinced that some sense can be put into our economy, the cost of living brought down and the value of people's money restored, if the Government will cut out the cost of Socialism. I do not wish to follow the hon. Gentleman in, if I may say so, his somewhat academic thoughts. I would prefer to proceed to the question which I invite the Committee to examine.
  Now that we have had the British Transport Commission set up for over two years, I think we should consider the relationship between Parliament and the Minister, the Minister and the Commission, and Parliament and the Commission. In other words, we should make sure that the people—good, honest folk who voted Labour largely out of a misguided sense of loyalty to their kind, but without having the slightest conception that they were being led by the nose into nationalisation—are not being duped into believing that nationalisation means Parliamentary democracy.
  Let me refer to the Report of the British Transport Commission. The first Annual Report, a most interesting document. was brought out in August, 1949, and related to the year 1948. It was not even brought out soon enough for hon. Members to take with them on their summer holidays for light reading. We should observe that the only time that the House or any Committee of the House has so far discussed the accounts or a report of the nationalised transport industry was in the debate which we held in November, 1949, upon the workings of the Commission in 1948. We have had Adjournment Debates; I remember my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) trying to raise the question of area passenger transport schemes. He did not get very far before he was out of order.
  Have we not to face the fact that, valuable though these general debates such as we are having today may be, and essential though they are, something further is needed if we are to have effective Parliamentary control? Besides interesting and valuable discussions like this, we need something of the committee
  1160
  type—some occasion on which hon. Members on both sides, preferably possessing some accountancy knowledge, which I do not claim to have, should settle down and examine the report not too long after the period to which it refers. Hon. Members on such a committee should have power to call for further evidence and should have a duty to report to the House. Unless something like that is done, our Parliamentary supervision of this great industry must be only of the vaguest and most indeterminate kind. I ask hon. Members to consider seriously whether there is real responsibility to Parliament at this moment for what the British Transport Commission does.
  I welcome the return of the Minister to the Chamber. As we all know, he is a very willing old horse, if he will forgive me for putting it like that, but at the same time some of us think that he is going to find it very difficult to serve the House adequately without injuring his health, unless he has the assistance of a Parliamentary Secretary in the strenuous times which lie ahead. We shall not be able to spare him if it comes to praying late at night.
  Mr. Barnes: The Parliamentary Secretary is in another place.
  Mr. Renton: I know he is in another place. It is very nice for another place, but surely it is unfortunate that such a great and important industry as the transport industry should not be represented by two Ministers in the House of Commons, especially now that the industry is being nationalised. Also, there should be sufficient democratic control over it, although, as the Minister will appreciate if he is good enough to read my speech, there is not now such control.
  The Minister has put forward two views as to the relationship between the British Transport Commission and Parliament, and I suggest those two views are inconsistent. On the one hand, he says that he is responsible to Parliament for the nationalised transport industry; and yet, on the other hand, he says that he must leave the British Transport Commission to go its own sweet way and free from political interference. If there was one phrase which was repeated more than any other phrase in the last Parliament—and it was one of the most dreary phrases to which we had to listen—it was "This

  1161
  is a matter for the British Transport Commission."
  I find it rather illuminating, as well as alarming, to hear the Minister describe the way in which responsibility emerges in relation to this increase of freight charges for the railways. Responsibility for that is being tossed about like a shuttlecock. The Commission first of all put up a scheme, then the Tribunal considers it and then it goes to the Ministry of Transport, where eventually the Minister himself considers it. He knows that, in this particular case, the Tribunal came to its decision as long ago as 16th February. We are now at 15th March, and still no decision has been given.
  Frankly, I find it surprising that there should be a delay of a month in such an important matter as that. I should like to think, but I cannot believe it, that the Minister was doing the House the courtesy of waiting until after this debate before making up his mind. The right hon. Gentleman indicates that even that is not the case. Surely, if the responsibility for formulating policy and achieving a final decision is thrown about and divided in that manner, Parliamentary democratic control becomes non-existent?
  I feel that one of the lessons which we have to draw from the experience of the transport world, particularly in the last six months, is that the Minister has shown no leadership. He somehow thinks it is his duty not to show it, and he accepts no responsibility, except sometimes in a very roundabout way. It really is time that we sorted out our ideas on the matter and got the Government to change their ideas.
  Let us see where this peculiar and circuitous arrangement, which many of us envisaged when the Act was passed would emerge, has placed the British Transport Commission. I say that the Commission are in a position of lofty isolation. They are isolated from Parliament, as we know. They are isolated from the Minister, because the Minister considers that it is his duty to let them paddle their own canoe, even if they are shipping water to the tune of £500,000 a week and getting in everybody else's way. They are isolated from responsibility to shareholders in a way in which the former railway companies were not. They are free to pursue their Socialistic theories of integration, provided they can
  1162
  find their way through the very intricate wording of the Transport Act, which it appears from the first Report which they have published has caused them a good deal of trouble.
  They are floundering about in the obscurities of the Act, but the worst feature of the isolation of their present position is that they are isolated from the obligation to pursue national policy. Their terms of reference are to carry out the instructions contained in the Act, provided they can understand them. This isolation from national policy, of course, is having very serious results, as is evidenced by the application to increase freight charges. Quite obviously, that is going to be inflationary in its result. It is bound to have a very serious effect upon the cost of living, upon the value of the people's money, upon wages policy and upon our export trade.
  I suggest to the Minister that he should bear in mind these important factors about railway economics. May I remind him—and I can tell him where to get the evidence for it—that in most countries at most times railway freights have remained a stable factor in the economy? When the value of money has gone up or down, railway freights have not gone up or down in proportion. If they have changed, they have changed only slightly, and by their remaining a stable factor in the economy they have prevented inflationary tendencies from becoming more inflationary than they would have done if rail freights had gone up, and in the same way have prevented deflationary tendencies from becoming more exaggerated.
  By sanctioning this increase of 16⅔ per cent., coupled with his intention to increase the London passenger fares and with a possible increase in road passenger fares after the confirmation of area schemes, the Minister, unless he stops the Transport Commission doing it, will be departing from that very wise economic principle that freight charges should remain a stable factor ill the economy. If the Minister wants the evidence for this, he can get it, if he does not know it already—and possibly he does—from the very full evidence, at the recent hearing before the Tribunal, of the Transport Commission's application for increased rates of charges. Reference is made not only to the tendency in this country

  1163
  between the wars but also to experience in other countries as well.
  If he really wishes for advice—and I do not know whether he does or not—as to how he should exercise his judgment and what decision he should make in relation to the application for increased freight charges, I would say that to raise the charges would be inflationary, and that he should, therefore, avoid it if possible, and that he should get over the difficulty by persuading his colleagues in the Government to bring down taxation and restore the value of money. Secondly, those economies which the Transport Commission have hinted at in their first Report, as being their intention to make, should be carried out. The railways should be reorganised and modernised in the sense of adapting them to modern conditions of competition. So many railway branch lines were built when no one imagined that there would ever be a road haulage system; and yet they are still kept going today, though quite unnecessarily.
  The Minister may quite rightly ask what he is to do in the meantime while the railways are losing a lot of money. The answer is simple. The British Transport Commission have taken over large liquid resources, including, incidentally, the £190 million of the so-called surplus revenue earned by the railways during the war. It has been taken over by the Commission, but I believe not yet spent. Bearing in mind that the tendency seems to be that, at the rate of £500,000 per week, the Minister only has until 1952 before the losses tot up to £100 million, I would say that he should tell the Commission that they must rely upon their liquid resources until matters can be put into better order, which must be done by 1952. That would be the wisest decision for him to take at this time.
  In conclusion, I want to say a word or two about the area passenger transport schemes. The Commission have said perfectly frankly that they want to remove the disparity of fares between road and rail, and it is not disputed that that does not mean bringing down the rail fares; it means putting up the bus fares. Here I feel I must say a word on behalf of my constituents. Living in 80 villages and hamlets and five small towns scattered over a wide area, they are depen-
  1164
  dent upon their cheap buses for much of the amenities of life. My constituents do not want integration, co-ordination and the removal of disparity of fares. They want their bus services to remain cheap and they want them to be as frequent and ubiquitous as possible. I am candidly warning them that with an extension of Socialism, their bus fares will not remain cheap.
  I should like to point out that employees of the bus companies, in my constituency at any rate, from the evidence which I possess, do not seem to be a bit impressed with this idea of nationalising their buses. I have had letters from bus drivers asking me to do everything I can to oppose the nationalisation of their buses, and I have not had a single letter from a bus driver asking me to support it. I ask the Minister, therefore, in this matter as well, to show some leadership, to take some responsibility and to stop a calamity.
  7.22 p.m.
  Mr. Poole: I do not propose to detain the Committee very long After these Debates on nationalised undertakings I am always left with a very dissatisfied feeling, but it is not actuated by the same causes as those which are bound to irritate the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton). He complained that we were not debating the 1948 accounts of the Transport Commission until August, 1949.
  Mr. Renton: November, 1949.
  Mr. Poole: That was very much better than was the case in the past, because before nationalisation, we were never able to debate in this House the accounts of any of the rail companies. We on this side of the Committee would give a lot to be in the position today to debate such matters as the accounts of the Imperial Chemical Industry and other bodies such as that. Perhaps that time will come, but it has not yet arrived. Having said that, I do not want hon. Members to think that I approach the present situation in our nationalised industries with any sense of satisfaction whatsoever. Indeed, I will be perfectly frank; I have tried to keep out of the Chamber because of the temptation to speak which I should feel if I entered it. I did not want to speak in this Debate because some of the things I shall have to say will be critical

  1165
  I must confess that I enjoyed listening to the speech of the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft). I heard that speech in the last Session of Parliament, or very much the same thing; he delivers it with a good deal of enthusiasm and infuses some enthusiasm into right hon. and hon. Gentlemen around him. Much as I enjoyed it, however, I could not help feeling that he missed a wonderful opportunity in the Debate. As I listened to him I wished that I was sitting on his side of the Committee, with the opportunity of showing the Minister where the British Transport Commission was going wrong. Of course, we had the Conservative Party speech; I could imagine him making it in that delightful town of Monmouth. I thought we were suffering today from an overhang of the General Election. There was some criticism for, I think, 40 minutes, without a single constructive idea, without a single suggestion as to how the unfortunate position, as he characterised it, could be overcome. All through we have had not a single suggestion from his party as to what they would do with the nationalised transport industry—except, of course, one.
  Dr. Morgan: There never has been.
  Mr. Poole: To-morrow's OFFICIAL REPORT will show whether I am speaking the truth or not. We have had from his party, in every one of their documents, and it is my business to read their documents on transport, only this: that they will continue the nationalisation of the railways and will hand back road transport to the private road transport operator. That, I understand, is Conservative policy in relation to transport. In other words, the railway industry, which for the last 25 years has been in considerable difficulty and has been making losses, that section of the industry which is not paying its way, shall be carried on the back of the taxpayers, while the other section of the industry, which is making a profit, shall remain in the hands of the profiteers. That is exactly the suggestion of the Tory Party, and we have had nothing beyond that from them.
  I approach the transport question from one angle only. The question we ought to ask ourselves is, what interests and what considerations ought to prevail? I believe
  1166
  there is only one answer and it is that the over-riding national interests should govern the measure of direction of our transport industry. I go so far as to say that I do not believe there is any case to be made out for the nationalisation of transport unless, in the process, we produce a co-ordinated and integrated transport system, and I say this to the Minister, "You have not done it yet, you cannot do it on the way you are travelling and you never will do it unless you alter your path."
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Give it up as a bad job.
  Mr. Poole: Give the noble Lord up as a bad job? I agree with Sir Henry Drummond—
  "Betwixt the stirrup and the ground
  He mercy ask'd, he mercy found."
  There is always a chance of eleventh-hour salvation and I exhort the noble Lord not to give up, because some day he too may have a sane approach to this problem. Unless we can have such an approach there is no purpose in nationalisation. The Minister knows in his heart as well as I do, that we can never have a co-ordinated and integrated transport system and at the same time have 700,000 vehicles running about this country under "C" licences, carrying what they will, where they will, when they will and under any terms and conditions they will. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I can assure hon. Members opposite that I shall quite frankly state my position in this matter, although it may be unpopular and although they may feel they can use it against me. The over-riding national interest cannot be considered while we allow the number of "C" licences to grow, as they have grown, from about 380,000 before nationalisation to about 700,000 today. It is uneconomical, and we shall be led into considerable difficulty all the time.
  I turn to my last point. I have made it before, and I have made it in an interjection, and I rose tonight to make it in a speech simply to show that I am not ashamed to be on record as of this opinion. I believe that the integration of transport is not possible unless the power of direction of traffic is in the hands of the Transport Commission. It is useless and, I think, morally wrong to adopt the methods of direction of traffic which the

  1167
  Commission are proposing now to adopt. What they are seeking to do is to channel traffic into certain forms of transport by the charges barrier. If they want traffic from A to B to pass by road and not by rail, then apparently the rail charges must be made prohibitive so that the traffic finds its way to the road. If they want it to pass by rail rather than road, however, then the road facilities are to be made entirely uneconomic for the user so that traffic may find its way by rail. I think that is a state far worse than the one I posed for the consideration of the Committee. I believe the Transport Commission ought to have an overriding power of direction of traffic in the national interest.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What is the national interest?
  Mr. Poole: I do not expect the noble Lord to know what is the national interest. I shall never look to the benches opposite for a definition. I thought every ordinary citizen knew what was the overriding national interest. It is that interest which is not the purely selfish interest of the individual. Perhaps that is too much to expect a Member of the noble Lord's party to appreciate. I interrupted the hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth on this very point. It is not in the national interest to have non-urgent traffic moving by road and creating highway problems and vast capital expenditure on extending highways.
  I know that unscrupulous politicians turn to me, or, rather, turn and say when I am not there, "Of course, what you are saying is that if Mr. Jones or Mrs. Jones want to go to Blackpool they must go by train, although they want to go by coach." But I am talking solely about the movement of goods and stores in this country. As far as persons are concerned a case might be made for the price factor in the situation but with inanimate objects the only consideration should be the availability of transport of the particular kind required, the peculiar circumstances at the initiating and receiving end of the journey and whether the premises are connected with sidings. But if we are to consider the over-riding national interest we cannot leave it to any one person to determine.
  1168
  Let us get away from selfish interest. If we are to nationalise let us do it intelligently. We are not doing it intelligently now.
  Something has been said in the Committee about the responsible personnel of the Commission. It is quite wrong to take advantage of our position in this House to suggest that certain people, who have no means of replying in this House, are not competent to do their job. I have criticisms which I should like to make but I will not make them in this House. It is not fair to those who have no opportunity of replying. In any case, as an hon. Member said earlier in this Debate, most of the people recruited to manage the Transport Commission were drawn from the executive offices of the main line railways and similar undertakings in transport, "Jobs for the boys" does not apply here. If it does "the boys" were not drawn from this side of the House, or from supporters of the political party to which I belong. Unfortunately, we have far too many people in all our nationalised undertakings who have been drawn from the political party which does not believe in nationalisation. Far too many of them are not concerned to see nationalisation succeed. I am not making any attack on any person.
  I am at a loss to understand, and our trade union movement is at a loss to understand, how it is that Minister after Minister, when somebody is required for the Board of a nationalised undertaking, seeks for them among men who believe least in nationalisation. We have been doing that for so long and we still wonder why nationalisation does not succeed. It will not succeed until we have in control people who really believe in nationalisation. As long as the Minister sits, as he is doing now, in a halfway house between nationalisation and private enterprise, not quite able to make up his mind where he is going to travel, there is no hope for the transport industry. I urge him to take his courage in his hands, and to let us have direction of traffic, not by charges but by an intelligent approach to the needs of traffic. In that way we shall get a co-ordinated and integrated transport system. Integration cannot be accomplished without these, and without integration nationalisation has no meaning.
  7.36 p.m.
  Mr. Reader Harris: I am grateful for the opportunity of making my maiden speech in this Debate on transport. Probably many hon. Members have long forgotten when they made their maiden speeches. If so, I hope they will not forget to give me the indulgence I so badly need tonight.
  I am very proud indeed to have been elected to this House by the constituents of Heston and Isleworth. It is a borough which is very deeply concerned with the problems that face the British Transport Commission. Heston and Isleworth is a borough which is not known to a large number of Londoners, partly because a great part of it is better known to the public as Hounslow and partly because up to 1945, for Parliamentary purposes, is was attached to Twickenham. The late Member for the borough in the last Parliament began the good work of trying to put it on the map. I hope to try to continue that good work.
  Heston and Isleworth are two ancient parishes. They have had an interest in transport ever since the days when passenger and freight transport were seriously interrupted by Dick Turpin on Hounslow Heath. Today the people of Heston and Isleworth are still concerned about transport because a very large part of the borough is residential and large numbers of its inhabitants travel to other parts of London for their daily work. There is also a large number of factories in the borough, particularly on the Great West Road, which rely on transport to bring in their raw materials and to get their manufactured goods away. My constituents are very much hoping that the Minister will not become a 20th century Dick Turpin who removes from their pockets inordinate amounts of money for the privilege of travelling to and from the borough. They are deeply concerned over the prospects of integration and the proposed increase in transport charges in London.
  In accordance with the custom of the House, I must disclose to the Committee that I am the secretary of the National Tyre Distributors' Association, and I have had some close contact with certain parts of the Road Haulage Executive. In speaking of road haulage tonight, I am not here to be controversial or to make things difficult for the Executive. I want
  1170
  to try to be constructive. I assure the Committee that I am as anxious as they are to see that the Executive is a successful and profitable undertaking under the British Transport Commission. The livelihood of everybody in this country depends upon it. It is not to our advantage to make matters more difficult for the Road Haulage Executive or to prevent it from working efficiently.
  I am frightened when I listen to this proposed scheme of integration which has been referred to by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. I am frightened that the proposed scheme will militate against the efficiency of the Road Haulage Executive. I hope that the British Transport Commission will not proceed on the assumption that road transport—whether of goods or passengers, whether private or State owned—must be restricted or made less attractive if the Commission are to provide an adequate and properly integrated system of public transport, as they are required to do by the Act.
  Such an assumption would disregard the basic principles which must be carried out if a national transport system is to operate for the long-term benefit of the country as a whole. These principles have been enumerated many times in many places, and more recently by the International Chamber of Commerce in a report prepared at the request of United Nations. One of these principles is that a user should enjoy unrestricted freedom of choice among means of transport, including the running of his own vehicles. Another is—and here I quote from the report—that:
  "nothing should be done which would hinder the development of any particular form of transport or disguise the advantages it could offer"—
  or—
  "which would discourage its use in order to provide artificial support or any alternative form of transport."
  It is clear, whether we like it or not, that a scheme of integration in a very short time would hit the small man.
  I should like to say a few words about the passenger-carrying side of the business Surely, eventually, integration would mean an increase in the fares charged by long-distance coaches. That must happen eventually. If it did, it would be bound to hit the small man

  1171
  who relies upon coaches to get him to the place where he wants to go on holiday. Very often the cheapness of the fare to the place where he wants to go is a determining factor in deciding whether or not he can take a holiday: it certainly is a prime factor in deciding where he can take a holiday. I think it was G. K. Chesterton who said, "When you go on holiday always go as far away from home as possible, because it does you more good to have a complete change." But if prices are increased for seats, either in trains or coaches, many small men will either be unable to go away at all or will have to restrict their travel.
  I am a firm believer in the principles enunciated this afternoon by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), who said that if we want to get people to fill up the seats on the trains we should make the trains attractive to them and sell the tickets at attractive prices. In my constituency there is a large factory which sells cosmetics, soaps, lipsticks, face powders and other articles of that kind. On the face of it, there may appear to be no connection whatever between lipstick and seats in railway trains; but there is one connection, and it is that to persuade people to take seats on trains we must attract them there just in the same way as this firm has to try to persuade people to buy the lipsticks, soaps or face powders. I was interested to discover a short time ago that, in order to sell its commodities, this firm maintains a large organisation which does nothing but assess the potential demand of the consumer. It has a staff of investigators who visit some 2,000 housewives regularly every month to whom a small fee is paid for disclosing how they spend every penny of their income. These investigators discover how much money is left in the pocket of the housewife after she has paid for all the necessities of life. They assess how much is left over, and they price the articles which they manufacture accordingly.
  If they find that the amount of money left over has decreased considerably, then they alter their production schedule. They reduce the size of the commodities they sell and cut down the frilly packaging to make them cheaper so that the
  1172
  housewives can buy them. If we put up the prices of railway or coach tickets we shall find that people cannot afford to buy them, and the losses will simply accumulate. On the same principle, I ask the Minister to consider this matter and to ensure that railway tickets are sold at prices which people can afford to pay because, unless they are sold at those prices, the whole scheme of integration must become sheer nonsense.
  On the question of the Road Haulage Executive, in which I am particularly interested, I think that they have carried out a very difficult task with, by and large, good sense and with a standard of efficiency which is as good as that of any other nationalised undertaking. There is no doubt that they have had a most difficult job. The progress to date is as satisfactory as it could be, but it must be remembered that the effects of nationalising the road haulage industry have not yet been felt. They have begun to be felt, but not fully, because when an undertaking is taken over from private enterprise it continues as it was running before for the first few months. It is only after a few months that the Executive begin to take over control.
  We have heard the statistics from the Minister. Approximately 3,000 undertakings have been taken over. Some have been compulsorily acquired and some have been acquired voluntarily. The total number of vehicles concerned is about 40,000. As control tightens on the undertakings, it is fair to ask whether efficiency is increasing and whether confidence is increasing in the minds of the people who use these lorries.
  The Minister has been good enough to give details about the number of "C" licence holders. He said that 675,000 vehicles are working under "C" licences, but it is only fair to point out that in 1938, 365,000 vehicles operated under "C" licences; that by 1946 the figure was still only 383,000; but that between 1946 and November, 1949, the number leaped from 383,000 to 675,000. It is reasonable to ask whether that great increase has come about because there is any lack of confidence on the part of the traders of the country in the nationalised undertakings. If they had great faith in the Road Haulage Executive, surely they would have been content to use the Executive's vehicles.

  1173
  My experience of industrialists is that if they have sunk their money in the production of a certain commodity, they want to use all their available capital on production. They do not want to spend money in buying a lot of vehicles which take up space, require extra staff and cause worry. If they can have their goods carried expeditiously at a cheap rate, they will far sooner use somebody else's lorries, no matter to whom they belong. Despite what has been said by hon. Members opposite, industrialists, who are always out to make profits wherever they can, are not concerned whether the vehicles they use are owned by His Majesty's Government or by some private haulier. All they want is the cheapest, the quickest and the best service they can get.
  It is an inescapable fact that it is not very difficult or complicated for a haulage concern—whether it be run by the State or a private person—to carry somebody else's goods. It is not complicated or difficult if the haulier has been in the business all his life. No doubt, it would be most difficult for hon. Members of this House. I would find it difficult, because I have not been in the business all my life, but to someone with experience who owns 10, 20, 50 or 100 lorries it is not very difficult to arrange matters so that the lorries travel with full loads for most of the time. It is not very difficult to make a profit. All it requires is individual attention, some prompt decisions and quick action, all of which one can provide if one has had the experience. There is no reason why the Road Haulage Executive should not be just as good as private hauliers in those respects. But it is pertinent to ask whether there is the machinery and the organisation for giving just those very things that go to make a successful road haulage undertaking.
  I should like to quote some facts and figures about the Road Haulage Executive. The 3,000 undertakings which were taken over from the private hauliers are now organised in 2,500 depots. I have no quarrel with that. To reduce 3,000 undertakings to 2,500 is a reasonable thing to do, but the question I ask is what power has the manager in charge at each of those depots? I suspect that he has very little power, because those 2,500 depots are organised into 300 groups. It is then pertinent to ask what power has
  1174
  the man in charge of one of the groups; he cannot have very much because those groups are organised into 31 districts. I do not know what power the men in the 31 districts have because, above them, are eight divisions, and above them are the Road Haulage Executive's headquarters.
  There are five levels without taking into account the British Transport Commission, who give decisions on matters of policy relating to road haulage very much, of course, at a high level. There are six layers of authority altogether, and there are five layers above every lorry. I wonder whether that is the best sort of set-up for giving just those three ingredients which I say are necessary for the running of an undertaking.
  It is a fact that, at any rate in the Road Haulage Executive headquarters and the divisions, there is the accountancy department, the engineers' department. the staff and welfare departments, the surveyor's department, the traffic officer's department, the public relations department, and maybe several other departments as well. They are duplicated at divisions, possibly triplicated at districts, and, for all I know, quintuplicated right down at the depots. It is also interesting to look at one or two figures in regard to the staffing of the Road Haulage Executive. I am not saying that the staff is either too great or too small, but I suggest there are some figures which the Minister might usefully look at, because I can assure him that I want to see the Road Haulage Executive making a profit and running efficiently. Our export trade depends on that.
  The facts are that in the Road Haulage Executive there are 68,500 persons. Of that figure, 45,500 are engaged on the operating side. Again, I have no quarrel with that figure; I merely point out that it includes 2,800 supervisors and traffic clerks—about 1,400 of each. There are, in addition to the operating staff, the maintenance staff which total 8,500, including about 500 supervisors, giving a total figure which strikes me as being very reasonable for the driving, loading and maintaining of 40,000 vehicles. But I wonder a bit when I look at the administrative staff which, according to the transport statistics for the four-week period ended 29th January this year, total 10,649. That means one administrator for every

  1175
  five operators and maintenance men. I suppose those 10,500 odd are distributed over the various layers.
  That may or may not be the right figure, but it seems rather a large one to me and the Minister may feel inclined to look into it. If he does not feel inclined to look into that figure, I should be grateful if he would look at the bottom of the table, where, under the word "Miscellaneous," there appears the figure of 3,441. I do not know what that represents. Perhaps it is justified, but it seems a very large number for people who cannot be classified as porters, clerks, maintenance men, stable men, administrators or anything else. That figure of 3,441 is exceptionally large when one sees on the previous page that British Railways have only a miscellaneous staff of 10,500 out of a total staff of 623,000. There seem to be approximately 10 times as many miscellaneous staff on the Road Haulage Executive as on British Railways. However, I leave those figures to the Minister to do with them what he likes.
  I do not feel that attempts at becoming self-contained, which I think is the eventual object of the Road Haulage Executive, will always save money. The motor trade in this country is very large and widespread, and very experienced. It has a great range of facilities which are always available in almost every town and village in the country. On page 131 of the last full Report of the British Transport Commission it says that, in the initial stages, instructions were given to the companies taken over to continue to order from the same suppliers as in the past unless there was some particular reason for changing which, of course, had then to be reported to the Road Haulage Executive headquarters. The report makes it clear that eventually there will have to be lists of approved suppliers in some things so that bulk prices can he negotiated by the headquarters. I do not quarrel with that as a principle, but I suggest that full use should he made of the facilities which can be offered by private enterprise in different parts of the country.
  I particularly draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that this tendency to become self-contained and to use only the Road Haulage Executive facilities does mean that, in some cases, lorries have to go several miles out of their way in
  1176
  order to get petrol instead of using, perhaps, a petrol pump already on the route. It is a fact that on the London-Glasgow run there are only six British Transport Commission filling stations, and that is not many for a long run. It means that if a lorry is coming into London and gets to about Dunstable and wants to fill up, it has to go eight miles out of its way to Luton in order to get the petrol, and eight miles back to get on to the main road again. If it is only doing six or eight miles to the gallon, it seems absurd to use two gallons in order to fill up. The same sort of thing applies in other ways.
  There is one further point I want to stress very strongly, and it is that if the Road Haulage Executive is to work efficiently and is to give the best services which the traders need, it is absolutely essential that its staff at the lower levels should be contented. There is much evidence at the moment that the drivers, upon whom so much depends, are not as contented as they were. I do not want to be controversial, but I hope that hon. Members opposite will not mind my saying that before nationalisation there were some good private employers.
  I particularly direct the attention of the Minister to a recent letter in one of the transport magazines. It was written by a driver who said that under the private firm for which he worked before it was taken over by the State he had a guaranteed week of 61 hours, he received £1 a fortnight for clear signatures on receipt notes, he had £10 per annum no-accident bonus, and three weeks' full pay while sick in any one year. This opportunity of earning extra money through working long hours is something which the men now miss because, under the present regime, this particular driver says that he has a 44-hour week, no bonuses of any sort, and receives no sick pay.
  I am sorry about that, because I live about 30 miles out of London and am continually travelling by car on a main arterial road. I can testify to the fact that the long-distance lorry drivers of this country are among the most considerate and courteous and safe drivers on the roads. They are a magnificent set of men, and private enterprise has given them the incentives to be proficient and courteous. I hope that the Road Haulage Executive will maintain that tradition, because we shall all suffer if this grand body

  1177
  of men becomes discontented. It is also a fact that, in the old days, when a driver had delivered his load he had the opportunity—he was encouraged—to look around to try to get another load to bring back in the lorry. Now he has to report to the local depot, and wait about many hours, from which he may return with an unremunerative load, or else without one at all.
  I should like to say one word about the question of compensation, and put in a word for those hauliers who have not yet received compensation for the undertakings which they have lost. It would be interesting if the Minister could tell us how many of the undertakings have been acquired compulsorily and how many voluntarily, and how much money has been spent on the compulsory acquisitions. I believe it is a fact that in no case of compulsory acquisition has there been a final settlement. This is causing undoubted hardship. In conclusion, let me assure the House that I am only too anxious to see this great industry become efficient, and give the country the service it so badly needs.
  8.1 p.m.
  Mr. Harrison: I am not quite sure that I understood what exactly the hon. Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. R. Harris) meant when he referred to Dick Turpin during his speech, but I am sure that I listened with pleasure and interest to what he said, and I feel that I voice the opinion of the rest of the Committee when I say that I hope we shall have the pleasure of listening to the hon. Gentleman on many occasions in the future. I mean that very sincerely indeed.
  If the hon. Member will excuse me I wish, in the short time at my disposal. to jump at once into the really controversial parts of our Debate. In an evening paper tonight there appears this headline:
  "£50 a Minute Loss by British Transport."
  This is stated to be directly due to the policy of the Transport Commission. These observations are extracted from the speech of the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft). I want the Minister, if he will, in his winding-up speech to take the opportunity to come down hard on that absolutely untrue statement of the position that exists in
  1178
  British transport today. "£50 a minute." It is suggested that that £50 a minute loss is directly due to the policy of the Transport Commission. I think that headline is a travesty of the position and of the truth, because anybody who understands anything at all about the Transport Commission's work and British transport in general knows that that loss is not due in any way to the policy of the Commission, and that had it not been for the policy of the Commission it would have been considerably more than it is at the present time. I trust the Minister will deal effectively with that particular outcome of the day's proceedings
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I do not quite follow the hon. Gentleman. Can I take it that he agrees that there is a loss of £50 a minute? Can I take it that that is agreed and common ground between us? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The hon. Gentleman is making his own speech. I take it that the hon. Gentleman agrees that there is a loss of £50 a minute, but that he objects to a statement that appears in a newspaper about something else I said?
  Mr. Harrison: My objection is to the statement in the newspaper reporting the hon. Member's speech, in which he said that that loss is directly due to the policy of the Transport Commission. I categorically deny that statement, and I am quite sure that the hon. Member himself. with his experience of the Transport Commission, will also deny it.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I made a speech lasting 40 minutes on the matter.
  Mr. Harrison: The hon. Gentleman also talked about charges. He suggested that the increased freight rates suggested in the recent inquiry, if imposed on railway freights, would have a devastating effect on the farming industry. That was the statement he made. I should like to point out that the average cost of farming products at present is 250 per cent. above pre-war, and that with the addition of 16⅔ per cent. increase in freight rates, the increase in rail freight charges will he about 74 per cent, I am suggesting that, in that comparison, rail freight charges stand as fairly equitable in view of the general rise in prices.
  Another point I should like to mention in connection with the speech of the hon. Member is that of people being unable to

  1179
  afford rail travel. We had the illuminating report from the Minister that 92 million passengers travelled on British Railways last year. Yet we had the previous statement of the hon. Member to the effect that people could not afford to travel by rail. I think it would be in the interests of everybody concerned if the Minister dealt with some of the statements made in the hon. Gentleman's speech, and supplied authoritative figures in each case to disprove some of the assertions in it, and some of the inferences that most certainly will he made from them.
  What I should particularly like to bring to the attention of my right hon. Friend is the question of railway employment. I want to repeat what has been said by other hon. Members on this side of the Committee, that it cannot be expected that we can continue to employ in the railway industry for an indeterminate time the mass of workers who are drawing £5 and less per week. I suggest to the Minister that he should use his influence whenever and wherever possible to try to persuade the Transport Commission to view considerately the question of doing something about the lower paid grades in the railway service. I think that is a very important matter to be considered if we are to do what we must in future—make the railway service a really efficient, cheap one in the interests of the people generally.
  I was reminded during the Debate today of a view that has been widely talked about by a good many people in the transport industry and also in other influential circles, and that is that the railways of the country have had their day, and that the policy of the future must be one of restricting capital investment in that industry. I want the Minister, if he will, to consider that policy very carefully, and the implications of it, because if we cannot have a reasonable amount of capital equipment put into the railway industry generally, it cannot be expected that the railways, with their outmoded equipment, can possibly preserve, still less develop, a cheap and efficient service. It will "do" the railway service for ever if we cannot have a reasonable re-investment of capital, so that new machinery, new engines, new sheds, etc., can be provided in order that the industry may be run efficiently.
  1180
  In nearly every part of the country we are listening to complaints of inefficiency in the new haulage undertakings. I would like the Minister to deal with the question of efficiency or otherwise in the road haulage undertakings recently set up, because it is generally known that most of the complaints arise not from the actual facts of the working of the industry but from prejudices in certain circles which are designed to make it more difficult for the Road Haulage Executive to establish itself.
  It is only about a month since the majority of the road haulage undertakings were taken over by the Road Haulage Executive, and I think that it would be of value to everyone if the Minister explained exactly the position of the Road Haulage Executive at present because of this widespread, and, I feel, generally unsupported criticism of what they have been able to do.
  I suggest that on every occasion possible we should be given an opportunity in the House to discuss nationalised undertakings. We are again indebted to the Opposition for this opportunity of discussing such an undertaking. I impress upon the Minister the necessity of the Government granting more time to the discussion of nationalised undertakings and that he should not leave it on every occasion, as it seems to be left at present, to the generosity of the Opposition to provide time for these Debates. I think it ought to be a Government responsibility to provide more time for Debates like the one we have had today, because I am sure it would be in the interest not only of the Government but of the people and the industry if we had more time for such discussions.
  8.12 p.m.
  Brigadier Thorp: I am in agreement with the hon. Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Harrison) on many points. He has of course, laid a great burden on the Minister of Transport by asking him to answer so many questions when he winds up this debate, which I think only goes to prove what was said by one of my hon. Friends, that we should have in the House a Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport. The Minister has a heavy responsibility, and, if he has to answer all these very important questions, it wall be a great trial to him.

  1181
  I understood the Minister to say that there were certain profits made by the nationalised transport of this country, but that they were absorbed in some way which he did not specify, probably in covering some losses.
  Mr. Barnes: By rising expenses.
  Brigadier Thorp: I think that it is unsatisfactory that we should be told that there are profits and that they have been absorbed, but that no statement should be made as to how exactly they have been absorbed. We ought to know something about that. It has been said that some of the losses are the result of the rise in the cost of everything.
  When I intervened during the speech of an hon. Member on the other side and mentioned nationalised coal, he went on to say that increases in the cost of coal had been spent on the miners' wages, but he avoided the point that the costs have gone up by, I believe, 100 per cent. Some of that increase is due to the cost of nationalised coal. It was stated, I believe, to the Tribunal that the cost of coal will go up by 4s. a ton if the freight charges are put up by 16⅔ per cent., and that the cost of steel may go up by 9s. a ton. We are in the position that if the Minister carries on with increases in freight charges, he will have to come here and say that costs have gone up again and that the freight charges must go up again. We shall then get into that spiral which we all want to avoid.
  I think that many hon. Members opposite have missed the whole point of this Debate. The whole point of the Debate has been to try to see how we can reduce costs and the big losses that are being incurred at the present time by this nationalised industry. I believe that they can be cut by a real overhaul of the way in which the trains, rolling stock, personnel and everything in the industry are being run.
  I should like the Minister—he may have done it—to travel as much as I do on the railways, but not to do so in a compartment labelled "Reserved," "Do not disturb," "This side up, with care," or anything like that. If he will travel as an ordinary member of the public, he will hear complaints from the men on the trains about how they think money is being wasted in this nationalised service. He will hear many complaints that they are disappointed with how things
  1182
  are being run and feel that they are not getting a fair opportunity of putting forward their case and stating how they think losses could be reduced. He will also hear it said that the staffs are too big, that there is not enough delegation of responsibility and that trivial matters have to be taken almost to the highest level before they can be decided. I believe that by going into this sort of thing he can get down to the question of how to reduce the losses of this nationalised service.
  I emphasise once again, though I believe it was denied by the last speaker, the effect that increased freight charges will have in the rural areas. There is no doubt that the cost of producing food will go up. We must not forget that carriage has to be paid on such things necessary to the production of food as seed, fertilisers and machinery, which have to be taken to the farms; and when the food is produced it has to be taken to market and into the factories. Therefore, the cost of production of food is bound to go up.
  The increase in freight charges will also increase the cost of fish in this country. It will have a very serious effect on the fishermen all round the coasts of this island. I hope that in the very near future we shall have a Debate on that subject, because the fishing industry is in a very difficult position. I am having continual complaints from inshore fishermen about the difficulty of selling the fish which they catch. This increased freight charge will have a serious effect, because it must not be forgotten that the flat rate for the transport of fish is to be done away with in April. If that is done away with—and many of them agree that it should be—and if at the same time freight charges are raised, they will have a difficult time.
  Lastly, I wish to refer to the effect of taking over certain transport companies in the north-east. We in the north-east were the original "guinea-pigs," but the people of the north-east are not just "guinea-pigs" willing to feed on carrots and vegetables, and wait for the doctor's needle to he pushed into them as the patients. They feel that they have a service to perform to the people in the rural areas. They have been performing an excellent service, as far as they could, in providing 'bus services to the various villages and small mining districts in my

  1183
  contituency. They are now in a quandary because they do not know exactly what is to happen to them. Many of them have asked me whether they should buy new buses and enlarge their business, or whether they are to be taken over immediately. All this delay is not only maddening for them, but is doing a great disservice to the rural communities.
  I therefore ask the Minister to examine the whole question, and particularly those points I have put to him, especially about how to reduce the losses in the nationalised transport industry. I ask him, in spite of the very tiring day he must have had, to give us the fullest answers to these questions.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Proctor: This has been a very interesting Debate on the nationalised transport industry, and I wish to start my speech by saying that I consider that nationalisation of that industry has been a success. In the last Parliament we took the responsibility of nationalising the industry, and I believe it was the only course open to us. Had we failed to nationalise the industry, we should today be faced with a breakdown, because the rail section of our transport system would have broken down had it been handed back to private enterprise. In a sense, we are today deploring that the railway system is not patronised as much as we should like it to be. Nevertheless, there is at the service of British industry at present a very efficient railway system which I think compares favourably with any in the world. Unless we had nationalised that system, we should not today have had that efficient organisation at our service, and as a consequence British industrial life would have been gravely prejudiced.
  During the Committee stage of the Transport Bill I said that if the railway system were handed back to private enterprise, it would face bankruptcy. The truth of that is demonstrated when we consider that on the great London and North Eastern Railways system most of the engines, rolling stock and equipment had an average age of 34 years. The nation can easily visualise what tremendous difficulties we should be facing now had that problem, insoluble to privite enterprise, been handed back to private enterprise.
  1184
  I consider that the financial position of the railways was the sole responsibility of the House and of the parties who formed the Government in the inter-war years. The railway system was regarded as a monopoly; it was subject to restrictions and controls; rates were fixed by law, and the railway companies had very little power of initiative. They were at a great disadvantage in being excluded from road transport, which prevented them from developing that side of the transport system. They were regarded as a private monopoly long after they ceased to be a monopoly, and the Tory Party, which was in control of our industrial destinies at that time, bears responsibility for having two systems of transport, almost entirely separate from each other, growing up side by side. Had there been integration on a proper basis, we should have had a much better transport system than we have at present, but the railways were prevented from engaging in road transport in its early development, with disastrous consequences to our transport system.
  I should like whoever winds up the Debate for the Opposition to tell us exactly what is their transport policy. As far as I was able to understand it as explained by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), it is a free-for-all, letting anyone go on the road and engage in transport. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that by having a free competitive system we shall no longer have dealings in bus services, such as the Red and White Service, which has just changed hands at a price of millions of pounds, and other transactions of that sort, I can tell him he is wrong. In a free-for-all the small man will be squeezed out, while the big private monopolies would tend to dominate the scene. Perhaps the party opposite will also tell us what would have been their policy in the last Parliament had they been responsible for dealing with the railway system. We nationalised the railways, and said that it was the only policy. The Opposition opposed nationalisation of the railways. I should like to know what policy they would have pursued had they been in power.
  What policy will the Tory Party pursue if they have power in the future? I understand they are prepared to continue with a nationalised railway system, but

  1185
  that they propose to separate the road transport system from the rail transport system, running road transport as a private unit. In that case, the publicly-controlled unit, the railways, is bound to lose money, and will have to be subsidised if it is to be kept in being. It is either that, or else the traffic which must go by rail—that is, the heavy traffic, coal and steel—will have to pay such excessive rates in order to keep the railway system going that it will be such a crippling burden upon British industry as almost to destroy us. I want them to face this problem absolutely.
  In the first place, what do they intend to do with road transport? The railway companies in pre-war days owned a considerable amount of road transport. Do they intend to hand back all the road transport or only a proportion of it, and if so, how are they going to separate it? It is far easier for us to go ahead with our scheme of nationalisation in order to bring these two forms of transport into an integrated system, under which I am certain they could be made a profitable business.
  I should like to say a word about the "C" vehicles. This is a very difficult problem. I am all in favour of the person who has a small business being allowed to use "C" transport as he likes, but the problem of very large industries operating large fleets of transport should be given further consideration. I suggest that no firm, however large and however prosperous, could possibly organise all its own transport. If it is going to exist, it must have access to the public transport for certain of its goods. It cannot itself run the lot. It can only cream off a certain part, and run that profitably for itself. The industrialists of the nation should look at this problem of "C" transport, and consider whether these large fleets of vehicles could be properly integrated in the new system of transport which we are bringing into being.
  With regard to the difficult problem that confronts us now—the question of the increase in railway rates—we should proceed with all speed towards the completion of nationalisation and the proper integration of our road and rail system, which we then could make a paying concern within a short space of time. While making a plea for speed in the development of nationalisation I suggest to the Government the advisability in the inter-
  1186
  val of a policy of not increasing the railway rates and of meeting the deficit by means of a subsidy. I know that it is a suggestion that calls for very careful thought, and though I do not pretend to have at my disposal all the advice which the Government of the day have, I think that if we proceeded with all speed with the nationalisation and proper integration of transport, covering the intervening period by temporarily granting this subsidy, we should be serving the nation in the best way that we possibly can.
  A problem that concerns all of us is that of finding a wage level that would be satisfactory for the whole of the transport industry. In view of the fact that we have brought into existence this unnatural separation of the road and rail sections the responsibility rests on the nation and on the House to see that decent conditions operate in this great basic industry, upon which so much in the life of the nation depends. We were entirely right to nationalise. I can see no alternative for an efficient and cheap system of transport in this country.
  We should as quickly as possible go forward with the scheme of integration, and I look forward to a solution of the transport problem, especially the passenger section, so that it will be possible to take a ticket on a bus and return by rail. Such a state of affairs would prevail if we had complete interavailability of tickets. It seems absolutely wrong to me to find a queue nearly half a mile long waiting for buses and the train running out of a nearby station empty because the train fare is double that of the bus fare. We should have interavailability of tickets and co-ordination of services. I am quite convinced that the basic plan that has been recommended, when put into operation, will give a greatly improved service. I trust that the Government will proceed with all speed with this great idea, which I am sure can be brought to fruition in a short space of time. Transport should be cheap and efficient.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: It would be tempting 1,3 accept the challenge of the hon. Member who has just spoken, and to follow him in expounding Conservative or, since it is now my privilege to speak from this bench, Liberal-Unionist policy. In view

  1187
  of the lateness of the hour, I will confine myself to recommending to him the policy explained in "This is the Road." Apart from that, there are three specific points which I shall make as briefly as I can.
  The first point is in regard to the free road hauliers. In the North of Scotland, and in the Aberdeen area in particular, hardly any contract licences have been issued. The Road Haulage Executive in Aberdeen are not even making available forms of application for job permits. The reason they give is that no job permits will be granted where British Transport Commission's vehicles are available. Moreover, in cases where permits for jobs have been granted, restrictions have been imposed which, instead of giving a general licence, have restricted the classes of commodities or goods which may be carried. That has made it particularly difficult to secure economical running, because if the transactions are to be worth while, the vehicles must have return loads.
  The Minister will remember the Debates that we had in the House and in Committee when the Bill was going through, and when the case of the coastal towns was discussed. He will remember that we discussed the geographical difficulties arising from the fact that the 25-mile radius was restricted because of the sea. There are other difficulties in the case of places like Aberdeen, which have not towns of comparable size within the 25-mile radius. I ask him to look at the special problems of towns like this, to see whether it is possible for him to give special instructions to the Transport Commissioners to look sympathetically at the case of the private hauliers in such areas. It seems wrong, and not in accordance with what he himself has said, that there should be an arbitrary refusal even to consider applications which are authorised by the Act and the regulations. It seems to be a most dictatorial interpretation of authority.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Whenever somebody intends to permit road haulage with a "B" licence, we have about 20 or 30 existing licensees objecting right away and insisting upon control.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: That may or may not be true. I should be quite prepared to argue it, but it does not affect
  1188
  the point I make that there has been refusal to give job permits, or even to make forms of application available. I ask the Minister to look into the matter.
  The second point is the problem of freight charges, and the proposed increases which have been thoroughly discussed in the Committee today. I would remind the Committee that for each of the 21 classes of commodities which are carried, there are four basic rates. The first is the rate per ton-mile for distances up to 20 miles. The second one for distances thereafter up to 50 miles, The third up to 100 miles. The fourth for distances over 100 miles. It appears, therefore, that for under 100 miles the rate per ton-mile decreases with the distance, whilst for journeys over 100 miles there is a fixed rate per ton-mile. If the 16⅔ per cent. increase is to be applied, the costs of freight for journeys of 400 or 500 miles from the North of Scotland to the great consuming centres in the South will be almost impossibly high, and too high to make effective competition with the southern industries possible.
  Let me give two examples of what I mean. In 1937 the cost of transporting fish from Aberdeen to London was 5s. 7d. a hundredweight. Compare that with the cost in 1937 of carrying one hundredweight of fish from Grimsby to London, which was 2s. 4d. With the proposed increases of one-sixth, those rates will be 10s. 7d. from Aberdeen as compared with 4s. 2d. from Grimsby. May I give one more example—
  Mr. Poole: Would the hon. Member—
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: The hon. Member has spoken already and there are many wanting to get in.
  Mr. Poole: It is in the hon. Member's own interest.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: That may be, but it is not in the interests of my hon. Friends who are anxious to speak. I am trying to be as quick as I can.
  The present rate for conveyance of granite from Aberdeen to Birmingham is 105s. 9d. per ton and the new rate per ton, if these increases are granted, will be 123s. 4d. For exactly the same type of product, from Shap to Birmingham the comparable rates will be 58s. 11d. as compared with 105s. 9d.

  1189
  and 68s. 9d. as compared with 123s. 4d. The proposal I have to make is that the principle of decreasing rates ought to be extended and made to apply not only, as at present, to rates for distances under 100 miles, but also to rates for distances over 100 miles.
  Finally, on the question of the abolition of the flat rate, I agree entirely with what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) and by the hon. and gallant Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Brigadier Thorp) and others who have spoken about the most serious consequences of the proposed abolition of the flat rate upon the carriage of fish upon the livelihood of the inshore fishermen in distant places like the coasts of Scotland and Cornwall.
  I could enlarge upon the difficulties these gallant men are having by reason of high costs of gear and other things. I will content myself only with reading a telegram which has come to me this evening from the county clerk of the County of Banff which, as hon. Members know, is one of the counties principally concerned with the inshore fishing industry—concerned just as is the County of Aberdeen, my own County of Kincardine, the County of Angus, and so on down the Scottish coast:
  "At meeting Banff County Council held today extreme apprehension expressed as to future of fishing industry in view of withdrawal on 15th April of existing flat rate on carriage of fish. In the opinion of County Council and leaders of the fishing industry this step coming on top of other increases in costs must be ruinous to north of Scotland fishing industry. It is in the view of the County Council indefensible and illogical for the Government to advocate setting up new industries in north of Scotland at same time by withdrawal of flat rate to place Scottish landed fish beyond economic reach of south market thus ruining a major industry. Should the nation throw this great industry to the wolves it may pay dearly for it in a national emergency. Meantime the County Council urgently request that action be taken immediately at least to postpone abandonment of flat rate until full representations on the subject can be made.—County Clerk."
  These representations from a great county council express exactly the view of all the local authorities in the whole of the north-east of Scotland and of all who represent the inshore and deep-sea fishing industries.
  8.46 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: The Debate has shown, if nothing else, that everyone is very much aware of the importance to the country of the railway industry. We have had speech after speech about its effect on various industries, and directly upon the cost of their products, as a result of the threatened increase of freight charges, and every hon. Member who has spoken has deplored what might arise. I have listened very carefully, hoping and waiting for suggestions to be put forward by hon. Members opposite about an alternative solution.
  It seems to be generally realised that the financial position of the railways is precarious, but no one has proved, or even attempted to prove, that that position is due to nationalisation. Suggestions were made by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Brigadier Thorp) about how savings could he made, but I am still waiting for actual details. The hon. and gallant Member said he had talked to people in the trade, who had made suggestions to him, but he did not tell us what were their proposals for saving the £20 or £30 million, which it must be remembered, is really what is at stake. He left us in complete ignorance.
  It has not been proved that nationalisation is the cause of the existing financial situation of the railways, or what action could be taken immediately to remedy the position. Only by the means of interruptions of hon. Members on this side has it been suggested by the Opposition today that they do not intend to hand back the railways to their former private owners. The question which we have to ask is whether the railways, had they been left in private ownership, would or would not be asking today for an increase of freight charges.
  I well remember the years just before the war, when the railway companies were placarding all their own and other hoardings about something which was called "A square deal for the railways." That was a campaign leading up to a demand for increased passenger and freight rates. I remember those days also because at the time I was travelling daily by train from Glasgow, when we were joined at a place—which you, Sir Charles, will remember very well—named Barassie, by men employed there in the locomotive works. I

  1191
  remember week after week at the same time as a demand was being made for a square deal for the railways, there was always another man being paid off as redundant.
  I suggest that it is about time the Opposition faced up to the practical problem of the future of our railways. It is not good enough to work it off by sloganising about the evils of nationalisation. This is an acute problem. The railways are as dependent as any other industry on raw materials and the cost of labour and it is not fair to say that whereas every other object should be allowed to rise in price railway charges alone must remain stationary. I remember that in the last Debate we had on the subject, in the last Parliament, it was pointed out that steel had not risen so much in price as nationalised coal, but that very week it did rise in price because one of the subsidies on steel, which we hear far too little about, had been removed.
  I wonder why the Government are so squeamish about the question of subsidies for the railways. We should face up to this. If raising the cost of freight affects so many of our industries directly we should face the same question in regard to steel where, in the last five years, direct and indirect subsidies amounting to £56,500,000 have been given, not because we want to do anything other than keep down the price of steel. We should face squarely, in this transition stage in a key industry like the railways the question of subsidising present losses until we get the integration and profits of the road passenger section and the road haulage section balancing the inevitable losses of the railways. That is by far the best solution.
  From the point of view that we cannot do without the railways it is not good enough for the Opposition to say that they will give back the road passenger section to former private owners. That is burking the question altogether. Why is it so wrong to nationalise Scottish Motor Traction, but seemingly a virtue for Scottish Motor Traction to have taken over every little firm in Scotland? I want to test the sincerity of the Opposition in their contention that the service should go back to original owners. If, when they are handing back the road passenger services in Scotland, will they
  1192
  give Kilmarnock Corporation its service back and Perth its service back and Ayr, and all the others? They were sold to Scottish Motor Traction by Tory town councils. Are the small bus firms squeezed out by Scottish Motor Traction to go back to original owners? Inevitably, we must maintain our railways from a defensive point of view and, I suggest, from the point of view of the development of our industries.
  It is as true today as it was when the Leader of the Opposition spoke in Dundee, in 1918, that if we want to develop the trade of this country properly the railways must be nationalised. The problem has been made much more difficult because we have waited more than 30 years to do it. We must, as one of my hon. Friends has said, get capital flowing into the railways to bring them up to date. Meanwhile, I suggest that until that integration has been achieved, with the benefits from the road passenger and road haulage side balancing the inevitable losses on the railways, we should face up to the question of subsidies.
  I wish to mention only one more point, which is fairly parochial. There have been benefits to the railwaymen in the change over and one of the greatest has been that there has been proper consultation before this vexed question of redundancy has been dealt with. Railwaymen appreciate that very much, but I wish the Minister to find out whether or not it is true that there are certain people who have been given a little power under the change over who have, in certain departments, been acting as the manager of one workshop in Kilmarnock has done. He has said, "I shall clear out a third of the staff" and has adopted a dictatorial attitude without having had discussions with the unions and the people concerned. That causes a certain amount of grievance among the men. I would like that kind of thing to be cleared up. I think that on the whole the action the Government have taken and the way they have faced up to the whole problem of transport is the right one. I want them to face up to the question of subsidy as well.
  8.57 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I should not have intervened at this late hour had not a situation of great urgency

  1193
  arisen only yesterday, affecting Scotland. It has already been adequately dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley). I should however like to support him on one further point and I hope that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) will, accordingly, forgive me if I do not follow him into all his arguments. The domestic subject on which I wish to say a word is the abolition of the flat transport rate for fish. Yesterday, at Question time, the Secretary of State for Scotland revealed that at long last he had come to the firm decision that as from 15th April, when price control on fish is lifted, the flat transport rate is also to go.
  I asked the Secretary of State, in a supplementary question, whether he had urged the Minister of Transport to consider a charges scheme for merchandise. The Secretary of State gave this reply:
  "There is a Departmental inquiry going on, although I would not be too optimistic about the outcome."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1950; Vol. 472, c. 895.]
  I should like to ask the Minister when he will be able to tell us the result of this Departmental inqury? It is not a new inquiry; this matter has been under consideration for a long time, I should say at least a year. Countless deputations from the Scottish fishing industry have come to London and have also visited the Secretary of State, and they have brought into their consultations not only the Secretary of State for Scotland but the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Food.
  As my colleagues on these benches have already pointed out, this is a matter which is causing grave concern to the whole fishing industry in the North-East of Scotland. We quite realise that the Minister of Food feels himself to be in a difficult position, because he is in a cleft stick between the South ports and the North ports. But the North ports are confronted not only with a possible rise in freight charges throughout the country of l6⅔ per cent. but also with the abolition of this flat transport rate, which will have a most serious effect on the possibility of an expansion of the fishing industry and also on the possibility of maintaining a high level of employment.
  I should like to ask the Minister, or whoever is to reply, to state definitely the
  1194
  result of these Departmental inquiries, and also whether it is proposed to have some interim charges scheme before 15th April, when the price control is lifted and the flat rate is abolished. I assure the Committee that Scotland and all those ports North of the Border feel strongly about this subject, and are anxious to have a lead from the Government.
  9.0 p.m.
  Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: Once again it is my pleasure to express on behalf of the Committee the delight with which they have listened to the first contributions from new Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) not only gave the Committee good proof of the reason why that constituency sent him here, but impressed on all of us why and how we in turn should go to his constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) was listened to with the attention which hon. Members always pay to those who contribute a special knowledge; while my hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. R. Harris) gave us an analytical study of a problem which he took for his own and which I think all of us will remember for a long time.
  We in turn have contributed something to those hon. Members, because today they have seen this Committee in that lull after the storm of a succession of three-line Whips which is not the least attractive aspect of our communal life. Also, by intervening in this debate they have, if you, Sir Charles, will allow me to use a somewhat colloquial term, joined the "transport gang" in the House. The "transport gang," if I may repeat that term, have two characteristics. The first is that none of them ever pull their punches against each other. The second is that we ever strive to put the best construction on the views of everyone who speaks in our debates, believing that they are endeavouring sincerely to contribute what they can to the common measure and knowing that they are never speaking from lower or less estimable motives.
  I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that of the many hundreds of debates on transport matters which he and I have shared, this Debate does stand out as one in which a contribution has

  1195
  been sought to be made by everyone who has taken part. It is important that we should try to have debates where that attitude prevails. I am only a little sorry that the right hon. Gentleman had not the time to discuss the charges scheme which has been put forward in what I call the "brown pamphlet." I put the point to him—and it has no party significance at all—that when the Commission are endeavouring to consider such a problem, it is important that we in the House should discuss it and leave our mark upon it at an early stage. It ought not to get hardened in the hands of anybody outside before we can try to put our imprint upon it. I should therefore like very shortly to put one or two of the matters which have given me difficulty.
  I believe that the placing of the main emphasis on loading capability and not on value is a sound reform that is long overdue. I am very worried about the time factor. I said in the last debate on this subject in the last Parliament that it was unlikely that the scheme would be ready before 1952. I gather that the chairman of the Transport Tribunal has said that even that suggestion was optimistic. Therefore, hon. Gentlemen must face up to the fact that if they are relying on integration—an integration which will have as its basis a general charges scheme of this sort in its final form—then they are relying on something which cannot come into effect for, say, seven to 10 years. If the five years is optimistic as to the final form, then we must allow another period for integration to take effect.
  I put it to the hon. Member for Perry Barr (Mr. Poole), and others who have considered this matter very seriously today, that this is not of any avail for the short-term problem which is co-terminous with our problem of closing the dollar gap by improving our trade conditions. We must face that fact and consider what we should do. I hasten to assure the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) that I will try to deal with his point, though he will understand that, in the course of half an hour, it must be an outline answer that I give him. I ask hon. Gentlemen, who have put the point with such feeling and obvious consideration, to approach the question from the aspect that integration is not the immediate answer to their problem.
  1196
  Therefore, we have the two aspects which we must consider. On the one side, we have to try to reduce costs or prevent costs from rising; on the other side, we have to deal with the problem of this sector of employees who are drawing wages of under £5 a week. We must look to the question of improvement in efficiency, and I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider my suggestions even if the next time they get the opportunity they pull them to pieces. In any case, I want to put my suggestions before the Committee.
  I should like to say a little more about the scheme in the "brown pamphlet." Contrary to the hon. Member for Perry Barr, I view with some dismay and doubt the putting of a differential on traffic which the consumer thinks should be sent by a different form of transport from that chosen by the British Transport Commission. I feel that that will be assumed to be endangering freedom of choice and will have an adverse effect both on practical commercial results and on morale.
  Mr. Poole: That is exactly my point. I oppose differential rating and the direction of traffic by differential rating as between different forms of transport.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I am sorry. The hon. Gentleman will realise that one has to take some sustenance, and I had not the pleasure of hearing the whole of his speech. I accept that, and am very glad to find that he and I are on common ground.
  Now let me come to the question of the railway operating policy. The Minister has put forward as the explanation—and it has been supported by hon. Gentlemen opposite—the rising costs of materials. I find it difficult to accept rising costs in the period 1948 to date as an explanation of an increase of losses by six times—from £5 million to £30 million—and I think we should want a lot of convincing on that point. Again, let us face the future. We must do that.
  I think hon. Gentlemen will remember that I made, I am sorry to say, 179 speeches against the principle of nationalisation. I do not think they would want me to repeat any of them tonight, but what we do want to consider is how we are going to deal with the position in which we are at the moment when the losses have risen from

  1197
  £5 million to £20 million and to £30 million. If it goes on in anything like the same way, we shall reach the figure of £100 million by 1952. The 16⅔ per cent. rise will relieve the position only for this year, but it will not completely close that gap, and it will not make up the backlog, and, of course, will do nothing towards building up a reserve. That is apart from the points, which again we must face, however we explain them, that it is going to mean sacrifices in traffic and increasing costs in basic industries such as coal, iron and steel.
  I do not want to go in any detail into the interest charge argument, because we have had it very often already, but I remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that when one makes a purchase and uses capital in order to make that purchase, one does expect to have an interest charge in respect of that capital. This is not a question of an existing business, but of an acquisition which must be made in that way. I hope hon. Members will allow me to develop this point because I am not, for one moment, making a point against the railwaymen. They will see that is so when I finish my argument, and I think they will agree that it is a point worthy of consideration.
  What impressed me were the figures which Mr. Basil Smallpiece gave a short time ago as to the output per man. He said that in freight services it was 2½ per cent. higher in 1948 than in 1938, but that in passenger services it was roughly the same. With regard to the staff employed, the same gentleman's figure per 100 engine hours in regard to freight showed that it had gone up from 232 to 265, and his figure in regard to passengers that between 1938 and 1948 it had risen from 363 to 474. I ask hon. Gentlemen, especially those who are greatly experienced with regard to the railway unions, whether they do not agree with me that longer holidays and shorter working hours ought not inevitably to result in figures like these.
  Mr. John Hynd rose—
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish the point. I believe that if we do deploy our force allowing for the fact that they have had longer holidays, and allowing
  1198
  for the fact that they are working for shorter hours—that if we deploy them well, and place them in the right jobs, then we ought not to have this enormous increase which Mr. Smallpiece has pointed out.
  Mr. Hynd: I do not know how many hon. Gentlemen know who Mr. Small-piece is, but certainly the figures quoted convey very little to me, because so many multifarious things can play a part in the development of the figures. To quote them out of the blue conveys nothing at all. There is the pressure of traffic, the availability of equipment—all kinds of things. They are entirely false figures that have been given.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyle: I am sorry the hon. Gentleman does not know who Mr. Smallpiece is, but Mr. Smallpiece was an official of the Transport Commission, and he gave these figures, not in any party way, but in a careful study of the railway position. I was quoting them, I think hon. Gentlemen will realise, not to make any party point, but to make the point that we get an expert employee of the British Transport Commission saying that these are the results of his studies. I think that if the hon. Gentleman reads HANSARD he will not find it quite so difficult as he did at first sight. He will find that these figures need some explanation in working, and that is the point I was making.
  There is another one. I hope it is one that will not tax the perception of the hon. Gentleman too highly. It is that the drop of receipts per passenger train mile from 13s. 9d. in 1948 to 12s. 4½d. in 1949 is a serious drop. It is a drop of 10 per cent., and therefore one has to consider profitability very seriously, because, again, this is a figure which is not a selected statistic for a point, but one which we all have to face if we are considering this position.
  I 'believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) did make the serious and important suggestion that in filling the vacancy left by the late Lord Ashfield, whom we all not only admired but loved as a personality, the Minister should try to get someone with commercial experience who will deal with that point. [Interruption.] I hope hon. Gentlemen will allow me to proceed now, because I must sit down by 9.30.

  1199
  I always like, as I think they know, to give way if I can, but I do not want to trespass on the right hon. Gentleman's time.
  I come to the argument of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). We fought the last election saying quite clearly—it will be found in all our literature—that we did not think that the problem in the railways was a change back of ownership but was one of de-centralisation. Perhaps I may point out to him that it is a similar problem to a previous one, which was one of the main subjects of consideration in the case of coal, and of the Burrows Committee that inquired into the working of the Coal Board. If the hon. Gentleman will cast his memory back or read HANSARD for 1st December, he will find that I devoted quite a considerable time to this aspect of the problem in the speech that I made on the Report of the Transport Commission. I believe that the fact of the Railway Executive being constituted on a functional basis, and the fact that we have functional members of the Executive looking over the heads of the chief regional officers to the functional officers inside the regions is a bad and inefficient method of organisation. I believe that unless we give some responsibility to the chief regional officers, we shall never get the restoration of efficiency which is needed.
  I think that everyone will agree that the hon. Member for Edge Hill (Mr. Irvine) made a most temperate and balanced speech about the difficulties inside the industry. I am not seeking to twist his frankness into an advantage for us on this side of the Committee. I am restricting the point to what he said about the wages situation, joint consultation and promotion, which he said must be taken into consideration today with the article published in the N.U.R. magazine last November, with regard to the frustration that the author found. This is an aspect which, after all, is not confined to the railway service. The Trades Union Congress statement with regard to coal shows the same approach, and I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite what is the matter with a fair and frank consideration of decentralisation on the lines that I have suggested.
  I believe that if we gave this great power and responsibility to the chief
  1200
  regional officers and made our central body one of representatives from the regions with an independent chairman, kept it a policy-making body, and allowed the regional officers to operate as commercial undertakings, each responsible for carrying out that policy and showing its own financial results, we should get a great deal of improvement in every way.
  I should like to put this point to the right hon. Gentleman and to hon. Members opposite who have made so much about the suggestion of the separation of haulage. I understand that road haulage represents at the moment some 5 per cent. of the assets of the Commission. It seems to me to be very difficult to base on that either the argument that the roads could carry the railways or that the separation of the roads would have a fatal effect on the railways.
  There are two points which I want to make in a moment, but first I wanted to answer the points put by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and other hon. Members. I believe that the status quo with regard to the passenger service was better both from the point of view of efficiency and integration. From the point of view of efficiency, if we take the service provided in the provinces and the fares at which that service was provided, then I fail to find any matter of complaint that has been urged seriously during the last 20 years. Taken from the point of view of integration, the fact that the railway companies owned, not the whole of the associated bus companies, but 41 or 43 per cent.—
  Mr. David Jones: Forty-nine per cent.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Well, something under 50 per cent.; it varied with different companies. The position was that there were boards on which there were railwaymen, and also joint standing committees between the railway companies, the bus companies and local authorities—and this was especially the way in Lancashire and Yorkshire—which gave a practical integration of services. That is one point.
  The second point is this. I take my stand unhesitatingly—and I am really unimpressed by everything I have heard today in this respect, although I have paid great attention to it—convinced in the

  1201
  belief that in the vast majority of cases the corporation services should be run by the corporations, who are local people, who understand local conditions, know the routes, the stops and the fares and—and hon. Members opposite must concede this—the members of the council are always there to be shot at; people go round to their houses and make the councillors' lives a misery if they do not get a good service. Hon. Members on both sides know that. I believe that that is the way to run it.
  With regard to goods transport, let me put my difficulty to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. By the application of what is known to members of my profession as the rule in Enston's case—the rule on which road and rail transport worked before the war—a new entrant, and to a slightly lesser extent anyone who wanted to run a new vehicle, had to show two things: first that he had the customers available; and secondly, that the existing methods of transport were neither suitable nor adequate to deal with the customers' needs. Not to agree that coming within these two propositions justifies the existence of road transport is to condemn the producers of our country to an inferior form of transport. I cannot believe that that is a good method to use for getting on with production at the present time.
  That is the general position. I am not strait-laced about it. I do not want—and I think the Minister knows me too well to think that I ever would—to take away "C" and "D" licensed vehicles from the railways; I do not want to prevent the railways from having proper complementary services. I do not think anyone who has had anything to do with transport would ever suggest that for a moment. But I do say—and I believe it now as intensely as I did three years ago when speaking on the Transport Bill, and after all the experience we have had—that to get sound local application of goods road transport there must be a small unit, and that is the only thing that will give it.
  I have tried to give a general outline in reply to some questions. No doubt we shall have other opportunities of dealing with the points. In the few minutes remaining to me I wish to say a little about the London scheme. There again, we
  1202
  ought to get our approach right. At an embryo stage we do not want to pick out details and concentrate on them. On the other hand, again, we in the House must have the right of examination; and if we are to do our duty to our constituents we dare not let go the right of considering at an early stage the general trends and policies which underlie proposals of this sort.
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that there were anomalies and historical variations in London. That is no justification for Londoners paying £3½ million towards the Commission's revenue, if their fares are going to be so much dearer than the fares of provincial buses, which are governed by the Traffic Commissioners. That is a general point which we must face. We have not only to do justice between the people of London and the people in the provinces, but we have to consider what we think is a proper method of dealing with the situation. Are we to take it that this proposal for London is to be a precursor of the rest of the country going the same way? If so, we must consider it, because that is a matter which we, as custodians of the comfort of our constituents, cannot avoid considering.
  Finally, I hope the Minister will not rush on with the passenger scheme. However little attention he may pay to words of mine, let him think again of words so graphically used by his colleague, the Lord President of the Council, who paid us a brief visit and has left us again, to our sorrow, that he always viewed with regret the loss of something from a local authority to a nationalised industry. If the right hon. Gentleman remembers that, not only will he add to his popularity along the North-East Coast and in the Eastern Counties, but he will have done a service to the users of passenger transport throughout the country.
  I have tried to give a general survey of the position in reply to the debate. Let us now on one point face the situation without blinkers—how are we to prevent further rises in costs and how are we to try to improve the position of the people in the industry? I submit that our proposal for the railways of de-centralisation and change from the strait-waistcoat of the present arrangements is the only way, and I commend it to the Committee.
  9.33 p.m.
  Mr. Barnes: If I have the permission of the Committee, I should like to reply to many of the important issues that we have discussed. Before I do so, I want to reflect on a matter which was of interest to many of us when the Act to nationalise transport was passing through the House. At that time there was considerable concern in the minds of hon. Members as to whether they would have adequate opportunity to discuss the problems of transport. When I recall the Debate we had on the first annual accounts of the British Transport Commission and also our Debate today, with the wide opportunities it has presented to hon. Members to express their views, I do not think anybody can in future argue that there is not a reasonable opportunity in Parliament under the new dispensation. I have always taken the view that it was not necessary for the House to consider the day-to-day transport problems going down into detail, but I have never evaded the issue that transport policy as such ought to receive our consideration from time to time.
  No one can complain of the range of the Debate or the way that arguments have been presented. From my point of view I consider this has been a very timely Debate. It has come at a period when another phase of transport policy is about to be unfolded. The views expressed here will receive the thoughtful consideration and examination of all those concerned. It is not possible for me to reply in detail to a great number of the issues that have been raised. They fall into categories, and I undertake that each comment and proposal will be examined and, as far as possible, given due consideration. I would join with the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) in congratulating hon. Members who have made their first contributions to our deliberations. They expressed themselves with remarkable ease and fluency. They may not yet be familiar with the atmosphere of this place, but that fact did not interfere with the logical way in which they presented their views.
  The first matter with which I should like to deal is the problem of staffs and costs of British Railways. It is interesting to look back at the experience after
  1204
  each of the two wars, and I should like to give certain figures. We must bear in mind that they represent two different principles of management. It was not until 1932, after the First World War, that we saw any reduction in the staffs of the railway companies, whereas, after the recent war, there has been a very widespread and general change in the conditions of labour in the country. When there is a general movement affecting the working conditions of wage earners it is not possible, under any form of management, to isolate an industry like the railway industry, which employs more than 600,000 persons—not all wage-earners, it is true.
  The introduction of the 44-hour week, the granting of holidays with pay, and the fact that, in 1948, the British Transport Commission spent approximately £20 million in endeavouring to overtake arrears of maintenance that had occurred during the war are three factors that must be taken into account. This industry cannot spend £20 millions in that direction without a very considerable increase in the labour force. While it is never possible to get accurate figures, nevertheless, I consider it is a conservative estimate to say that those three factors alone would possibly account for a labour figure of at least 50,000 persons. Despite that, between December, 1948, and December, 1949, the British Transport Commission have effected a reduction of over 24,000 members of the railway staffs. Taking the three figures together, I do not consider that any right hon. or hon. Member or, indeed, any trading body outside, can accuse the British Transport Commission and their executives A neglecting their responsibility to effect economies.
  It is not possible in a Debate of this description to detail all the economies secured, but I am satisfied that if one applies every reasonable test which determines administrative efficiency, it will be found that as a result of unifying the four railway administrations the efficiency test has shown good results in almost every direction. I do not say that those economies have been sufficient to affect the major issue we are discussing today, but it is certainly a notable feature of this Debate that while hon. Member after hon. Member has expressed dismay, regret and opposition to any increased charges, not

  1205
  a single hon. Member from the other side has indicated how this deficiency is to be met—
  Mr. Renton: That is not true.
  Mr. Barnes: The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) mentioned two points which I will dispose of at once, as he has interrupted. I had intended to deal with them later. The hon. Member referred to the fact that there were sums at the disposal of the British Transport Commission which could be used in this direction. I assume that he was referring to the £190 million which I have mentioned, but that has never been at the disposal of the Transport Commission or of the railway companies. The only amount available to the Commission was an agreed sum for the purpose of meeting deferred maintenance and, in 1948, £20 million of that was spent in overtaking such arrears.
  The hon. Member made the further point that it was inevitable that road passenger and road haulage costs would go up and that railway fares would never be reduced. That, again, is not correct. I shall not comment on the London Charges Scheme because that is a proposal which must come before the Transport Tribunal, and it must be argued by the bodies who voice public and trade opinion. As I indicated earlier, it is certainly not for the Minister, at this stage, to offer any general comments on its merits or demerits. Nevertheless, one has only to glance at that proposal to be able to dispose at once of the argument of the hon. Member that it does not represent any decrease in railway charges. Under that scheme the fares operating on the suburban lines of the main line railways will enjoy a reduction if that scheme should go through. At present no one can say whether it will or will not go through in its present form. It may be considerably modified by the decision of the Transport Tribunal.
  When hon. Members allege that this represents an increase of £3½ million on the fares of London passengers, again I say that it is too early to state that as a fact; it will depend eventually on the decision of the Transport Tribunal.
  Mr. Renton: is it not a fact that the Executive have published a statement to the effect that the result of the applica-
  1206
  tion they are making will be an increase in the net revenue?
  Mr. Barnes: Certainly. I have admitted that that is in the proposals. No one can say that that will be the result when the scheme is approved, because it is a matter for the Transport Tribunal yet to determine.
  I think it will be of interest to the Committee if I compare what happened after the First World War, when the railways—
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Before the right hon. Gentleman turns again to what happened after the 1914–1918 war, would he direct his answer to two points which were made by my hon. Friends and myself during the Debate? The first was a request for a detailed analysis of the policy of the Transport Commission in passenger railway services. The second question asked what the Minister was doing to fulfil his duty to fill the vacancy created by the death of Lord Ashfield.
  Mr. Barnes: Hon. Gentlemen opposite have enjoyed the advantage of putting their case in their own way, and their comments here tonight have been a defence of the whole system under which transport was formerly operating.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Face the future.
  Mr. Barnes: Our policy represents a change, and I want to show that the experience of the railways since the Second World War, the effects of which were much graver and deeper, is not different from what happened under the administration of the old railway companies. While I always listen to the views which are expressed by hon. Members, no one can influence me to say things differently from the way in which I want to put my own argument or case.
  I know that hon. Members opposite do not like these facts to be published, but it is desirable that they should be published; that is why I intend to give them here tonight. In 1917, passenger fares increased by 50 per cent. During the late war, however, as I indicated earlier, passenger fares were maintained at the level of an increase of 16⅔ per cent. until the end of the war. In January, 1920, freight rates were increased by 50 per cent. By August, 1920—all this took place before the railways were decon-

  1207
  trolled, and was under a predominantly Conservative Administration; passenger fares increased to 75 per cent. over what they were in 1914.
  In the matters we are discussing today, the proposed increase—the hon. Member for Monmouth does not like to take his gruel, but I am not disposed to exempt him tonight. In 1920—I hope the hon. Member will note these points—under a Conservative Administration, passenger fares increased to 75 per cent. over what they were in 1914. I would remind the hon. Member that in the present proposals the Transport Commission expressly state that it is not their desire to increase passenger fares any further. In September, 1920, freight rates were increased, again under a Conservative Administration, to 112 per cent. over 1914. I suggest that the situation in those days, under private enterprise and Conservative Administrations, compares very badly with the situation today.
  During the period which then followed, under Conservative Governments—I was in the House all through that period—the subject came up time after time. It was evaded and it drifted on from year to year and from Parliament to Parliament. I think I am entitled to make the further point that before this Government came into power, when representatives of the four main line railway companies were negotiating with the war-time Government, and were anticipating that at some time after the last war they would come to a period of decontrol, the representatives made it quite plain that before decontrol took place they would expect their charging powers to be put on a satisfactory basis. I suggest that if a Conservative Government had been in power after the last war they would either have had to agree to that situation, or they would have faced the position we are facing today.
  The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby said that if we go on on this basis—and the full charges scheme cannot come into operation until 1952, when they must begin to work their way out—the Transport Commission, if nothing is done in the matter, will be facing a cumulative deficiency in the neighbourhood of £100 million. We have not heard one practical busi-
  1208
  ness like suggestion from the other side as to how a problem of that kind will be met.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Surely my suggestions on decentralisation are worthy of consideration?
  Mr. Barnes: I do not consider that the suggestion of decentralisation touches the financial problem involved here in the slightest degree. How would decentralising the railways into six or eight regions—they are in six regions today—bridge a deficiency of £100 million, merely by the creation of local boards with local chairmen for the purposes of making decisions on the spot? Making decisions on the spot will not provide the railways with physical assets, the modernised physical assets, which are essential in this matter. I have not hesitated to state, and I repeat tonight, that I think hon. Members are taking too gloomy a view of the future of our railways.
  To give a recent example, on the Eastern Area suburban line to Shenfield electrification has recently been completed and, as a result, passenger receipts have increased by more than 40 per cent. in a short time. Much of the traffic which previously went by road services has been attracted back to the railways. The problem which lies before the Transport Commission, when restrictions of capital investment and other economic difficulties are out of the way, is to modernise the railway system. I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the suggestion that the mere decentralisation and breaking down of machinery and having local boards will in no way touch a deficiency of this kind.
  I emphasise that there are only three ways in which we can deal with the problem. We can secure severe economies—which is not possible, because if we cut to that extent we would vitally injure our railway system. The only other two ways in which we could stop the accumulation of the deficiency is by increased charges or by subsidies. Many of my hon. Friends have openly advocated a subsidy. I have not heard any hon. Member opposite advocate a subsidy, but at the last General Election they were holding out hope to the people that they would reduce taxation by £100 million, £200 million, or £300 million, as the case may be. Will they state here tonight whether they can carry out, or ever hope

  1209
  to carry out, a policy of this kind if they are to add to the present subsidies a subsidy on the railways? If that is not the case how is this deficiency to be met or its growth into a sum of £100 million stopped, unless it is met by an increase in charges?
  I come to the point which the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby has always and rightly stressed in our Debates on transport matters. He has emphasised that a policy of integration between road and rail that will give the largest measure of economy can never be carried through in the fullest sense until the charges schemes are first established. I suggest that if we allow this accumulation of £100 million deficit to develop by 1952 it will make nonsense of any charges schemes that may be introduced at that period. To allow this sum to accumulate and then endeavour to liquidate it in the charges schemes would produce an impossible situation. I know of no form of business organisation of any kind, whether in the field of public or private enterprise, that can exist if it refuses to face up to the problems which confront it from day to day. Hon. Members opposite cannot relieve themselves of this responsibility.
  I am satisfied, and I think there is evidence to support the view, that if the whole of our public transport services are integrated—the railway, goods and road passenger services—a service of that kind will in time eliminate the enormous waste there is in all forms of transport. Whether one considers "C" licences, rail transport, goods transport or road passenger services, it will be found that a great number of empty miles are run, which represent a good deal of wastage. The more ownership is duplicated and split up into small sections the more that element of waste is increased.
  If that is not the case why did the right hon. and learned Gentleman deal with the principle embodied in the Road Traffic Act, again a Measure passed by a Conservative Government after examination of this problem? Why was it laid down even in the field of private enterprise that in respect of road haulage and public passenger services an applicant had to prove that there were not sufficient transport services already in being before he could enter those services. That prin-
  1210
  ciple had to be introduced, and it has always been supported by the Road Haulage Association. They were against new entrants coming into that industry because it would represent an increase in waste. I welcome this Debate tonight because I think that the more this House discusses this problem the more the public will understand the inherent difficulties and the more they will gather behind this party for a permanent solution.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved:
  "That a sum, not exceeding £855,595,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account for or towards defraying the charges for the following Civil and Revenue Departments and for the Ministry of Defence for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1951."
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow:
  Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  DOLLAR ALLOWANCES (RELATIVES' VISITS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Pearson.]
  10.0 p.m.
  Mr. Janner: I wish to bring to the notice of this House a matter of some importance to a section of the people of this country, not a very large section, but, nevertheless, one which ought not to be neglected. I rise in order that this problem may be dealt with, and I hope that it will be met in a reasonable and proper spirit.
  An association has been formed in this country of the parents of United States and Canadian brides; young women who were British subjects and who married American and Canadian soldiers during the war or subsequently. There are about 3,500 members of this association, and they have come together to try to assist each other to solve certain difficulties which confront them. In my own constituency there are something like 200 members of the branch of this association for Leicester and Leicestershire.
  I wish to explain the problems which have arisen as a result of the war, and it faces most of these brides who married Americans and Canadians. As the House is aware, in the normal course of events parents whose children marry and

  1211
  go to live abroad are able to visit them within the limits of their financial capacity. There are now very few countries where they cannot take with them a basic sum of £50. Indeed, recently that sum has been allowed for the Argentine, which certainly cannot be considered a soft currency country. The trouble facing the parents of Canadian and United States brides is that they are under the disability of disembarking from the ship without a penny piece in their pocket, apart from the £5 which is allowed. Even that £5 they are expected to bring back to this country, or use it to cover expenses on their return journey or after they land in England.
  The result is that these parents are not only completely dependent for their maintenance on their sons-in-law and other relatives of the husbands of their children during their stay in the United States or Canada, but, in addition, even have to pay for meals on trains, and have to obtain the money from relatives of the husband with which to get these meals. I believe that in some cases there are some concessions in this respect. But they cannot even have any pocket money while they are visiting their children and, of course, the result is that a very interesting human problem arises.
  It may be considered a very small matter in the light of the tremendous amount of money spent in other directions, but to the people concerned it is an extremely important matter. They find themselves in a difficulty which ought to be met in some way, so that they are not entirely dependent in the manner which I have outlined. What I would like is that these parents, when they go abroad specifically for the purpose of visiting their children, should receive an allocation in dollars to the extent of £50, or something approaching £50. I would also ask the Minister, or one of his colleagues, to see what can be done about the question of meal tickets for the journey after landing so that these can be provided in this country for use on railways and buses in the United States and Canada. If parents could be afforded this facility it would be some help to them. The Government might well enter into negotiations with the railway companies concerned
  1212
  to bring about this facility in addition to allowing the £50 in dollars.
  The House may ask why this problem is now arising. It is true, that British girls often married Americans and Canadians in the past and went to live abroad. The explanation is simple. Before the war the only people who travelled to America and Canada with their daughters were those wealthy enough to be able to afford that luxury. Opportunities for young men and women from these countries to meet before the war were limited to a considerable extent to visits by people of ample means. During the war many thousands of American and Canadian troops came here. There were more opportunities for marriages to take place between people of slender means. Consequently this problem affects a fair cross-section of our community.
  It will be conceded that it is only natural that parents, and particularly mothers, want to see their daughters, their grandchildren and their daughter's homes. It is a natural outcome of the strong family life which exists here and which we all want to foster. To get out to the United States or Canada many of the parents of these brides stint themselves. They save up enough money to pay their fares. The lowest return fare to the United States is about £112. That is considerably beyond the means of many parents. It is necessary to pay a similar fare to visit Canada. Fares, of course, have increased since devaluation. I should like to ask if it is possible for a concession to be made to this group of persons, because there is not really a question of a loss of dollars. They could travel in British ships and the fares would be paid in sterling. We ought to make an effort to reduce the fares to an amount similar to that which prevailed before devaluation.
  I wish to refer again to the fact that, only a few days ago, it was announced that from 1st May a basic allowance of £50 per annum could be spent in South American countries. Surely, if this is the case and it is allowed merely for the pleasure of travelling to anybody who desires to visit those countries, it should be possible for parents who have a natural desire to see their children and grandchildren in the United States and in Canada to be given a special concession

  1213
  and to be allowed to take something like a similar amount of dollar currency with them.
  There appears to be a misunderstanding, which I hope the Financial Secretary to the Treasury may be able to clear up, about railway fares from the ship to the ultimate destination. Many parents have to travel for long distances after they arrive in New York. Some have to travel right across to the other side of the country and others to the Middle West. I was under the impression that those railway fares could be paid in this country in sterling, but I gather that some difficulty has arisen. I am told by the branch of this association in my constituency that difficulties have been encountered in some cases and that the relatives abroad have been asked to deposit sums of money to cover those fares. I would like my hon. Friend to state, tonight if he can, or to assure the House later, that there is no cause for anxiety in that regard, and that the position is different from what I have been told.
  I do not know whether the House fully appreciates what it means to a girl from this country living in a foreign land to have her parents visit her there, even though the people of that land speak, more or less, the same language as she does, but where the conditions are entirely different. Any of us who has visited Canada, or the United States particularly, knows the different type of life which presents itself to a person coming from this country, and how hard it is to accustom oneself to that life. It does not matter how kind are the new relatives and friends whom she meets in the new surroundings, there is not the slightest doubt that the presence at an early date after the marriage of one of the parents is something which brings considerable pleasure and comfort to the girl from this country.
  It is true that many of these brides went to Canada or the United States of their own volition, but there are occasions of sickness, not necessarily such serious sickness as would entitle a person to he regarded as being confronted with such exceptional difficulties for which the Treasury might allow dollars, but ordinary forms of sickness, such as that experienced at the time of childbirth, when a young woman longs for the presence of her own parents—particularly
  1214
  her mother—who have saved and sacrificed so much to bring her up. I think an indignity is placed upon the parents if when they go across to visit their children they have, as it were, to go cap in hand to their husbands for every small item they need. After all, when parents visit the States or Canada they really serve as ambassadors of good will. They play no small part in helping to foster an understanding between the nations, which is very necessary for the peace and happiness of the world.
  If my hon. Friend would accede to my request for the meal tickets to be supplied and for the £50 to be granted, I am quite sure that the concession would be regarded as something of considerable value by the British young women on the American Continent. We know, of course, of the generosity of the American and Canadian peoples—not only during the war when they opened their doors to our evacuee women and children—and also how extremely kind to the parents who visit them are the sons-in-law and other relatives. I do not think we should impose on their generosity to any extent over and above that which is absolutely essential in providing board and lodging for those who visit them.
  I wish to make one or two suggestions as to how this matter could be dealt with. Might it not be possible, in addition to what I have already asked, for a fund to be raised by friends in the United States on which visitors under this particular head might draw? Before leaving England, the visitors could deposit in sterling in a counterpart fund—it has been done in other regards—the amount to be paid out in the United States. I am talking now of something in addition to that for which I have already asked. Supposing that 1,000 persons a year went out to Canada or the United States, they would not normally stay for more than about three months. It would not involve such a very large amount if such an allowance were given for those 1,000 people.
  There could be a counterpart fund however to be used for cultural purposes. That is to say, visitors could come here from North America by way of exchange of students, for example, or to give lectures, and so on, who would normally not come to this country. Surely some

  1215
  method can be found whereby this position can be met.
  There are other advantages which would accrue to us. First, we should have an exchange of visitors. I am quite satisfied that if these parents went out to the States in larger numbers we should not only get one American visitor in return for each of them but we should encourage the tourist movement amongst the relatives and friends of these American husbands. If this gesture were made it might mean that a fair number of people would come to this country, relatives of the sons-in-law who otherwise would go elsewhere for holidays. I am quite convinced that we should have a very ample return for any allowances we made.
  Then there is some little saving in dollars if a parent goes out there. Remember, we are not dealing with very large sums. I see no reason why we should not refer to the fact that if a person goes away from Britain for three months to the U.S.A. there is some amount of saving of hard currency in respect of the food and so on that that person would have consumed had he remained in this country. Looking at the position from any point of view, it is not a very large sum which is asked for.
  This is a very human problem. This is a Government—and let us not overlook the fact—who deal kindly with human problems and always have done, and who understand the position of people who have not an abundance of means. The Government have been generous in seeing that everybody in this country obtains what is really necessary for life. This is a human problem suitable to be dealt with by such a humane Government. It is a problem which it is necessary to solve to ensure the happiness and welfare of our young married women who have gone out to other countries so far away, and I hope that it will be regarded with sympathy.
  10.17 p.m.
  Mr. Mellish: I should like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) for raising this matter, and I think he has served a very good purpose in bringing this human problem before the House.
  1216
  In my constituency I have a branch of this association, and I would say to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who is to reply, that if he were to come to one of the meetings of this branch he would be overwhelmed, as I have been, by the earnestness and sincerity of these parents. These people are saving up week by week shillings and pence to go abroad to see their children who are now in America, and to see their grandchildren, too; for at the moment they have only photographs of those very beautiful grandchildren, and they are eating their hearts out to go over to see them. Many of them reach the £100 for the fare, and then find that they are yet dependent upon the charity of the sons-in-law.
  I do not think this problem is as easy as it may appear on the surface, and I recognise the difficulties of my hon. Friend who is to reply. If the concession were confined to members of the association only, I think we could perhaps overcome the difficulties; although then, no doubt, there would be demands for the concessions to be extended to others Even so, I think we ought to look at the matter this way. We must remember that many of these children are coming here to see their parents, and that they are spending dollars here. This is a two-way traffic. In the long run I think we should gain more than this proposal would cost. It would be a wonderful gesture if the Government could give a lead in this direction to the American Government and ask them to enter into a reciprocal arrangement, as my hon. Friend has suggested.
  We must not gloss over the matter, and fail to attempt something just because of this particular difficulty or that. This is too important. I think that those girls who have married and gone abroad have become ambassadors on behalf of this country, and that they have proved to the American people that we British people are not such bad people after all. They have proved that there is a great deal of decency and kindness in our people here. I have seen hundreds of letters addressed to the Association from Americans all over the U.S.A. saying how glad they are to know these girls, how much they have heard from them about our country, and how they admire the fight which our people are putting up today to maintain economic

  1217
  stability. Unfortunately, the Press only talks about the odd girl who gets into trouble over there, and they forget the hundreds of British girls who are happily married to Americans.
  We say that parents who want to go over there to see these girls ought to be helped in some way. I recognise that it is not easy for my hon. Friend to deal with this problem, but I hope that he will give these people some comfort by trying to do what he can to help them. They are now in the position that when they have saved £100 they are dependent on the charity of their sons-in-law or other friends, and if we can relieve them of that burden, I think that we shall have done good work.
  10.22 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): I assure my hon. Friends that I am extremely sympathetic to the claims of these people. It is, as they have said, a human problem, and I am very conscious of that because I have experience of a particular case in my own constituency of a lady who wished to visit her twin grandchildren in Canada and who got into difficulties because of the dollar problem. I am, therefore, very much aware of how this problem affects the individual.
  I think that we would all agree that we should not wish a restriction of this kind to be permanent, or for it to be continued longer than we can possibly help. The Government would certainly seek to relax it as soon as the dollar situation enables them to do so. I think it is clear, however, that any relaxation cannot apply only to the parents of girls who married American and Canadian soldiers here during the war, and who are normally described as G.I. brides. I think that for the sake of fairness it would have to apply to all visits by United Kingdom residents to close relatives in the dollar countries, and, according to our calculations, any relaxation of that kind, involving the sort of dollar allowance of which my hon. Friend spoke, would in fact cost an appreciable sum in dollars. It is for that reason alone that we hesitate to go further in this matter at the present time.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the concession of a travel allowance to certain South American countries, but that, of
  1218
  course, does not apply to any country whose currency is in the same category of hardness as the North American dollar at the present time. I would make clear that we have, of course, gone some way already to try to meet the difficulty of these people. It is a fact that any such person can at the moment travel to North America providing that the expenses in North America are borne by the relatives in that country. We know that does not entirely meet the difficulty, but it is possible to make a visit on those terms. Secondly, we allow the visitor to purchase here in sterling a railway ticket or aeroplane ticket which takes him or her right through to the destination and not merely to the port of entry into the United States or Canada. My hon. Friend asked whether there was any difficulty about that. So far I know, the general principle is that the ticket can be paid for in sterling to take the traveller right through to the destination. If my hon. Friend knows of cases where that is not being allowed, I should like to see the evidence, to see what I can do.
  Over and above all, we of course grant an allowance in the case of compassionate claims or hardship, and one of those claims is for the parent or grandparent over 60 years of age. As my hon. Friend knows, we have fairly recently reduced the limit from 65 to 60 in order to provide some alleviation. In addition, after devaluation we raised the allowance to £35 so as to ensure that no further hardship resulted from devaluation. There is also provision that the parent of the girl living in North America or Canada can pay in sterling the expenses, including the fare, for a return visit from North America to this country, which in itself, since it includes the fare in the dollar area, involves a certain loss of dollars to Britain.
  My hon. Friend suggested, as I understood him, that an allowance of £50 per individual should be permitted in these cases for the dollar countries, similar to the allowance which we grant in certain European and other soft currency countries. Our difficulty in doing that is simply the cost in dollars which it would involve. According to our estimate, the cost would be quite considerable. If we extended it, as we should have to, to the case of any visit to close relatives, we estimate—it is very hard to estimate; it

  1219
  is a matter of opinion—that it would cost some millions of pounds worth of dollars.
  Mr. Janner: I am very reluctant to interrupt, but in the case of a parent or close relative who does not come within this category it is rather different, because as a rule they are wealthy people to whom the question of payment in the States or in Canada does not really matter. There is no real reason why those people should be granted the concession. Secondly, I should like to have a reply on the question of meals. My hon. Friend says that the fare is allowed right to the destination, but sometimes people have to travel by bus or train right across America, and they have to have money sent to them from their children, or their in-laws, in order to be able to meet the cost of their food. I should be very obliged if my hon. Friend would answer that.
  Mr. Jay: As I was saying, we calculate that if we made the concession in the way we should have to make it in order to be fair, it would cost a quite considerable sum of dollars. As for the cost of meals,
  1220
  there is a provision by which persons who are being visited in the North American continent can send the necessary dollars for the purpose to meet the visitor on arrival in North America.
  Mr. Janner: That is just what they object to.
  Mr. Jay: I know my hon. Friend does not think that is good enough, and that he wants a further concession in dollars. In looking at all these claims to do with dollars, we must remember that only as recently as last autumn this country was in a very serious dollar situation; at that time we were scarcely able to see how we were going to pay for our vital food supplies in the months ahead. The situation has, I am happy to say, very much improved since then, but it would be imprudent, after only a few months' improvement, and with all the uncertainties in the present situation, to go so far as to make further relaxations at the present time.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes past Ten o'Clock.

  WELFARE COMMITTEES (STATIONERY)
  WELFARE COMMITTEES (STATIONERY)
  COAL INDUSTRY (DOMESTIC SUPPLIES)
  COAL INDUSTRY (DOMESTIC SUPPLIES)
  TUBERCULOSIS PATIENT'S (SANATORIA)
  TUBERCULOSIS PATIENT'S (SANATORIA)
  RIVER POLLUTION
  RIVER POLLUTION
HOUSING
  Labour and Materials
  Labour and Materials
  Rent Restriction
  Rent Restriction
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Earl of Abingdon—Took the Oath.

THE ADDRESS: MESSAGE FROM THE KING
2.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have the honour to present a Message front The King, signed with his own hand. It is as follows:
"I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament."

NEWFOUNDLAND (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
LORD HOLDEN: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for repeals and amendments of enactments consequential on Newfoundland becoming part of Canada, and to move that the said Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. —(Lord Holden.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

DOVER HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
GLOUCESTER EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD BILL [H.L.]
TYNE IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
WISBECH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a and committed: the Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

GATESHEAD AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.

TRANSPORT COMMISSION'S POLICY
2.37 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM rose to call attention to the policy of the Transport Commission; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should like in the first place to take this opportunity of congratulating the noble Lord who is to reply for His Majesty's Government on his elevation to the Parliamentary Secretaryship of the Ministry of Transport. I am sure that all your Lordships will now look forward to hearing authoritative statements and information front his Department.
I think it is true to say that the policies of nationalised industries, and particularly of the transport industry, must have a great effect on production costs in industry generally. As your Lordships know, the Transport Commission have recently placed before the Transport Tribunal an application for an increase in their freight rates amounting to some 16 per cent., and I understand that the findings of the Tribunal are already in the hands of the Minister. Yet another application has been made, to raise canal freight rates and dock charges; and in some cases the request is for an increase of as much as 100 per cent. above the rates charged in 1939. I need hardly point out to your Lordships that if these increases are sanctioned by the Minister, they will have a grave effect, not only on the export trade but also on the home market, and will undoubtedly further increase the cost of living. I understand that the price of coal will go up by four shillings a ton and steel will go up by about nine shillings a ton. I suggest that these applications to the Transport Tribunal by the Commission have been put forward without any real constructive programme which might in the future lead to a condition in which the increases would become unnecessary.
I should like to remind His Majesty's Government that an increase in rail charges was made not very long ago—in fact, in the year 1947–when it was estimated that the increases then made would he sufficient to provide revenue for the railways to carry on after nationalisation and be in a more or less solvent state. As we know, the contrary has occurred, and the railways are in fact losing money at the rate of something

243
like £500,000 a week, and have a probable accumulated deficit of some £50,000,000 for 1949, rising perhaps to so much as £100,000,000 by 1952. These are certainly very startling and grave figures, and no wonder the Transport Commission wish to raise their charges. I suggest, however, that the proposed increases are not the real answer to the problem and something very much more will have to be done. In the old days, of course, it was the railway shareholders who absorbed the losses in bad times, but now all these shareholders have been swept away and it is the unfortunate taxpayers who have to bear this great burden, which is certainly increasing. I am convinced that the transport system as a whole cannot be expected to work efficiently and pay its way until a real effort is made and railway costs are brought down.
What happens, for example, when railway rates are increased? There is at once an increase in the disparity between railway rates and road charges. This disparity is hound to have the effect of stimulating a diversion of traffic from the railways to the roads, and thus there is a further loss of revenue to the railways. If we are to have a properly balanced transport system, the provision of which is an obligation laid upon the Transport Commission by the Transport Act, I suggest that the railways must become a more efficient and up-to-date method of transport than they are at present. A properly co-ordinated system would be one in which each form of transport was able to render those services for which it was economically and technically best suited. I might put it in another way by saying that each form of transport should cover its full economic costs.
I suggest that the public must be permitted to make full use of the great efficiency and service of road transport, and that road transport should certainly not have to support those parts of the railway service which are in fact obsolete. What are the obsolete parts of the railways system? They are mainly, but not entirely, the many uneconomic branch lines all over the country which in many cases could well be closed down. His Majesty's Government may reply that this work of closing down branch lines is progressing. But is it really progressing fast enough? Perhaps the noble
244
Lord who is to reply can give your Lordships to-day some indication of the plans the British Transport Commission have in mind.
We should also like to hear what steps are being taken, for instance, to introduce more mechanical methods of loading and handling, so that a reduction in manpower can be effected. I think I am correct in saying that some 63 per cent. of the costs of running the railways are in wages and salaries. Therefore, in the finances of the railways, the question of man-power is very important. I understand that a reduction of perhaps 10 per cent., or even as much as 15 per cent., could well be carried out without any real loss of efficiency, and it could be spread over a period of, say, two or three years. In these days of full employment it should not be difficult to absorb the men in other employment without causing hardship, and this would assist to build up our productive labour force, a step which is so necessary at the present time. I have little doubt that if those reductions were commenced forthwith we should soon see an improvement in the finances of the railways.
I believe it is unfortunately true that in 1938 550,000 men dealt with 298,000,000 tons, whereas in 1948 650,000 men dealt with only 276,000,000 tons. There has, of course, been a considerable rise in wages on the railways during the last few years. I suggest that it is essential that these rises should be set off by the saving of labour in the ways in which I have mentioned—namely, by closing down uneconomical branch lines and introducing more mechanical methods of loading and handling. I cannot help feeling that a great many other economies could be made in other directions. I suggest that this might be done in the case of standardisation of signalling equipment, and in spare parts for the various mechanical units associated with a railway. I believe that in the one item of steam gauges there are something like sixty-four different fittings. No doubt the Railway Executive have all these matters in mind, but are they getting down to the problem and making real progress in these necessary and important economies?
I hope that His Majesty's Government will initiate a real drive to secure major economies in administration. But we

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must have these economies now, or in a short time, and not in the far distant future. It is true that the Transport Commission have recently outlined the principles to be embodied in a new charges scheme for merchandise, and that scheme is now being examined by trade and industry generally. No doubt this new charges scheme will in time go a long way to level out the rates between road and rail, but it will be a long time, perhaps a period of seven or eight years, before the levelling-out process can become fully effective. What the country wants, and must have, is real economies now. What ever may be said of this new charges scheme, it is bound to have the effect in the end of raising charges on road freight, which in turn will have a detrimental effect on industry generally.
No doubt His Majesty's Government hoped and expected that under nationalisation great economies would be made, and that the Commission would be able to pay their way. There is no indication yet, however, of how the Commission propose to do this, except by a new charges scheme and by pooling the receipts from road and rail services. A few months ago the Minister of Transport, when addressing the Railway Clerks' Association in Bournemouth, said that the real solution of the railway difficulties was in pooling receipts on road and rail services, and that when that had been done British internal transport would be able to pay its way. Does the Minister of Transport really believe that when the finances of road and rail services have been pooled everything in the railways garden will be lovely? The reports and accounts for the year 1948 certainly indicates otherwise. They show that only 3 per cent. of the total receipts represent road haulage activities.
It is true that the take-over of road haulage units under nationalisation has not yet been completed, but I understand that even for the year 1949 the road haulage proportion of receipts is only about 5 per cent. It is clear, I think, that it will be impossible for the nationalised road services to cover to any large extent the losses on the railways. Surely it cannot be that, because the buses of London Transport cover the deficit on the Underground railways, His Majesty's Government think the road services can in time cover the losses on
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main line railways. That simply will not work it cannot be done. Even if road service rates were increased so that exceptionally high profits were earned, it is obvious that they could not make up for the deficit on the railways. I think that is a plan fact. The only real answer to the problem is, of course, higher efficiency on the railways themselves by cutting out all the dead wood and reducing management and running costs. If certain railway branch lines are a strategic necessity to the country, I suggest that they should be kept up by means of a direct subsidy, or perhaps kept in a state of repair on a care-and-maintenance basis. It might also be possible to close down a large number of little-used intermediate stations on the lines that may be kept in being.
It would seem that the Transport Commission, like a number of other nationalised hoards, are expecting to be guaranteed what is really a cost-plus basis for their administration and running. I suggest that if any increases in costs are always automatically passed on to the public, there can be no incentive at all to make any major economies. During the presentation of the Transport Commission's case before the Transport Tribunal recently, one of the witnesses for the Commission blandly stated that small economies might be expected in the near future, and in fact were being carried out now, but that it would be ten years before any major economies would materialise. I have little doubt that if economies on the railways were vigorously put in hand, a great deal would be clone to stein these very great losses which we are now seeing from year to year. Indeed, the Minister of Transport himself said only recently that with such a large undertaking as the railways a very small change could make all the difference between profit and loss.
I understand that in America there is an inter-State Commerce Commission, who investigate the operational efficiency of a railway when any demand is made for an increase in rates and before such increase is granted. It might be worth while considering the setting up of a somewhat similar commission here to make operational audits, not only of the railways but of a good many other nationalised industries. I would suggest that neither the Transport Tribunal nor

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the Public Accounts Committee is a suitable body to carry out that work. I should like to put this question to His Majesty's Government: Why is the deficit on the railways growing from year to year instead of being reduced? Surely it cannot be suggested that the cost of labour and materials has risen to such an extent since 1947 that a deficit then of some £4,000,000 has now increased in 1949 to about £21,000,000–and may be £30,000,000 in 1950. I believe that they have to look a good deal closer at the actual operation policy of the railways to which I would like to draw your Lordships' attention for a few moments.
It seems that a wrong policy was pursued in relation to passenger mileage during the year 1949. For example, from January to March, 1949, the receipts per passenger train mile showed a drop of 1s. 9d. on the figure for 1948. In round figures that is from about 12s. down to 10s. 3d. Surely that is a warning that the number of passenger trains should not be increased. Yet in April, 1949, the Railway Executive announced an increase of services amounting to no less than 1,200,000 train miles in each four-weekly period between June and September, which is a far greater increase than for the holiday season of the previous year. The result was that the gross receipts did not cover the extra expenses, and in fact were actually below the 1948 level. There we have the answer. It would have been far better to reduce the fares and not increase the trains. It is all very nice to have more trains and more through services all over the country, but the public are so heavily taxed that there is not enough money nowadays to go round to pay for all these wonderful services, and the passenger fares are undoubtedly too high. I wish in no way to belittle the excellent technical men on the Railway Executive, but I suggest that what is badly needed, not only on the Railway Executive but also on the Transport Commission itself, is someone who really understands commercial practice and can determine what parts of the railway can be made to pay and what parts are redundant.
I would like to draw your Lordships' attention for a few moments to the road haulage side of the transport industry. I understand that the Road Haulage
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Executive expect to control something like 30,000 to 40,000 road vehicles when the take-over has been completed. On the other hand, I see that the Railway Executive already control about 12,000 road vehicles which they use for their collection and delivery services. But in the Report of the Transport Commission for 1948, it is stated that not only is there a substantial loss in their operation but that "it is a normal feature of their operation." Surely, if the Railway Executive are unable to make their road services pay, it might be of advantage to hand that side of the business over to the Road Executive to see whether they cannot make it pay. I suggest it would be far better, however, if it were handed back to private enterprise. The real truth, of course, is that this vast and top-heavy transport structure is becoming clogged with centralised control and management. According to some Government statistics recently issued, it appears that the staff of the Road Haulage Executive—perhaps I had better say the British Road Services —has been increased by 2,600 men over and above those people taken over when the various road haulage undertakings were taken over. And so it goes on—more men to control more men, and so on ad infinitum. That is where the losses occur. From time to time we see rather longing eyes directed towards a possible limitation of the "C" licence holders.
I would like to take this opportunity of drawing your Lordships' attention to the recent Report of the International Chamber of Commerce which they made on this subject, which has a considerable bearing on it and which is being sent to the United Nations Organisation. The Report lays down that
"transport for own account should be unrestricted,"
and goes on to say that all the users should enjoy unrestricted freedom of choice among the means of transport. There is no doubt that if publicly-owned transport can offer trade and industry an economic alternative, combined with efficiency and service, they need not be worried about the "C" licence holders. Trade and industry use their own vehicles for only two reasons—one is efficiency and the other is economy—and they ought not to be restricted in any way in their choice of transport.
There is one other point with which I would like to deal, and that is the Transport Commission's proposal to increase the charges at the ex-railway and canal ports. It is true that the proposed charges compare favourably with the principal non-Commission ports, but it is none the less of vital importance in our present financial position that the charges should not be raised unduly. I would say that the proposed increases appear to bear very hardly and unfairly on the coasting traffic; they amount to 20 per cent, of current charges, whereas the other class of traffic has to bear an increase of only 14 per cent. I think it is true to say that all other ports outside the Commission have always applied their increases in respect of coasting vessels equally with other vessels, leaving, the pre-war differentials the same. During the hearing of the application before the Transport Tribunal recently, the Commission were asked whether anything had happened between 1947 and now to justify the changing of the differential fixed in 1947. The reply on behalf of the Commission was that the difference in the financial position of the Commission was a sufficient reason—a rather curious reply, but perhaps just another little squeeze. I would suggest that before this differential is changed, or in fact before any increases in charges are approved, the Minister himself should be satisfied as to whether a smaller increase coupled with greater efficiency and the greater exercise of further economies might not be sufficient to meet the requirements of the Commission. From the point of view of trade and industry it is most regrettable that an increased burden should be incurred at the present critical time in our country's economic situation.
In connection with coastal shipping, I should like to point out that it has always been the practice in the past to include traffic between Great Britain and the whole of Ireland—including Eire—as coming within the coasting basis for the levying of dock charges. I understand that the Transport Commission are not averse from accepting this arrangement and I hope the Minister of Transport will recommend that the coastal shipping differentials in dock charges shall be continued for the whole of Ireland.
In conclusion, I hope the Minister of Transport will give a direction to the
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Transport Commission that a complete plan of major economies on the railways should he prepared forthwith and put into operation at the earliest possible moment. I have no doubt that a policy of decentralisation would go a long way to making any reforms and economies effective. We on this side of the House believe that nothing effective will be done while the members of the Railway Executive are charged with the responsibilities of management and operation on a functional basis and are not in contact with local requirements and conditions; and we suggest that the Transport Commission should be reconstituted as a policy-making body, and management and operation be vested on a commercial basis in a regional board for each of the six railway regions. Then, I think, we shall see some return to efficiency. Above all, I suggest that we have yet to discover a method of protecting the public at large from inefficient management of nationalised industries. Questions in Parliament fail to elucidate the information required, and there is no doubt that the nationalised boards are in many ways becoming a law unto themselves. I hope that His Majesty's Government are giving this matter their fullest consideration, so that Parliament may obtain effective control of these vast undertakings. I beg to move for Papers.
3.3 p.m.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, I propose to speak for only a very short time this afternoon. I should like, first, to follow my noble friend in his first remark and to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on his new position. I wish to talk primarily about freight and to say how timely I think has been the introduction of this Motion by my noble friend particularly because, as he has pointed out, the country—or at any rate industry—now has before it the draft outline of principles which it is proposed should be embodied in a charges scheme for merchandise traffic. At the same time, of course, we have this demand for increased freight rates on the railways. As many of your Lordships foresaw when we were discussing the Transport Bill in 1947, the apparent results of nationalisation so far, at any rate to those who are outside the industries, appear to be far from giving us what the Bill lays down we should have—namely:

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"an efficient, adequate, economical and properly integrated system of public inland transport."
That is what the Bill lays down. But, as my noble friend has pointed out, it may be many years before we get this. One would like to see some tendency in that direction by now, but in all too many cases the tendency is in the opposite direction.
With regard to the proposal to increase by 16⅔ per cent. the railway freight rates, my noble friend gave an instance or two of the effect of this, mentioning it as adding 4s. a ton to the price of coal and 9s. a ton to steel. I understand that one can take the average price of steel as being, at a round figure, £21 a ton. To-day the amount of that £21 represented by transport charges can be taken as 54s. to 55s. That increase of 9s. will put up this charge to 63s. or 64s. This means that no less than 15 per cent. of the cost of steel—if we have this new increase added—will be represented by transport charges. That is a very high percentage.
I do not think that that example by itself gives the full effect of high transport charges in general. If one considers the aggregate of all the transport charges included, shall we say in some finished manufactured product (that is to say, the transport charges that would be included in the carriage of the raw materials going into the product, or such a thing as coal or paint used in its manufacture, the transport charges included in the movement of components taken from firms who specialise in particular components, or from a sub-contractor to the main manufacturer) then, if we take the transport charge included in the delivery of the product, and the railway charges and dock charges and so on, we see that these things add up to a very considerable amount.
In the light of these facts one realises how serious such an increase would be. An increase of 16⅔ per cent. is serious from two points of view. It is serious, first, from the point of view, as my noble friend has said, of our ability to be competitive overseas and secondly, because of the hardship which it must inevitably inflict on a number of firms who have standstill orders on the prices of their products at home. Clearly, the
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losses that we hear of to-day and those which we have been warned about in regard to the future, are something that must be dealt with. If they cannot be 'balanced by economies arising from integration or co-ordination of the various means of transport, then of course, so long as the British Transport Commission exists, they have to be dealt with by increased rates, as has been suggested, or they must be subsidised, either by the taxpayer or in some other way.
Prior to this debate I was re-reading the speeches in the debate which took place in your Lordships' House in May, 1947, when the Second Reading of the Transport Bill was in progress. I was particularly interested to note in the concluding remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, this statement:
"I beg that … if a subsidy is necessary, it shall … not be found by artificial restrictions placed upon other methods of transport."
I hope I have not misquoted the noble Lord and taken his remarks from their context. I am quoting them because I entirely agree with what the noble Lord said then. To my mind, to place artificial restrictions on what may be more modern, more efficient and cheaper forms of transport in order to bolster up a form of transport where a measure of retrenchment may he necessary would be to take a step in the direction of rigidity and away from progress, a step which in the long run would be bound, in relation to younger countries, where their transport system is not so developed as ours, to lead to a position of disadvantage as regards the industry of the United Kingdom. As I say, I have quoted the noble Lord because I agree with what he has said. I sincerely hope that he still agrees with what he said then, and that he will not fail to force that point of view in his new position.
The question I am going to ask the Minister—and I hope he will give some time to it in his reply—is, what exactly are the Commission's own views of their ability in a reasonable time, by integration and co-ordination, to effect such economies as may make the proposed increased costs unnecessary without weighting artificially the charges of other forms of transport? I hope the noble Lord will say something about that because one's general attitude to the present day losses must inevitably be influenced by the view of the Commission as to their future

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ability to avoid losses. I should like to quote one or two examples which I think are pertinent to this argument. We are told—and perhaps the noble Lord will say whether it is mere rumour or whether it is, in fact, true—that there are upwards of 60,000 operatives on the railways today who could be regarded as redundant. I do not know whether that is true or not, and I hope the noble Lord will give an authoritative statement on it. If it is true, then there is, as my noble friend pointed out, an avenue for the saving of labour.
We hear all too many complaints from traders of one kind and another of delays in the movement of their goods and of damage to their goods. Delays cost not only the customer but also the Commission a great deal, because their capital is tied up needlessly. I heard a case the other day of goods that are regularly sent from Manchester to London. By road they can go whenever required and they reach their destination within about forty-eight hours, whereas by rail they take as often as not anything up to three or four weeks—and I am afraid as often as not they arrive damaged. There was another case—and this is approaching the problem from rather a different angle—of goods going from Manchester to Liverpool. Under private road transport they could be delivered, as a rule, within about twenty-four hours; but the same trader to-day has often to wait six days before his goods are actually collected, let alone delivered at the other end. I admit that these may be just isolated instances and one does not want to pay too much attention to individual cases; but one hears too many of them to think that there is not something in them. I have no wonder whatever that traders prefer to send their goods in their own "C" licence vehicles, in which they can be carried as and when they like at a reasonable cost and—what is even more important, particularly today—without the need for expensive forms of packing. That is a particularly important factor to-day, when softwood is at such a premium and is expensive and difficult to get. Of course, packing wages are high.
Here again I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, because I am going to quote from the same speech that he made in May, 1947. He said:
"I know the growth of 'C' licence transport and I know why it grows enormously—
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because of the relative inefficiency of all alternative forms of transport offered to industry."
That is what he said in 1947. Again, I entirely agree with him. I do not know whether that was true then—it may have been, to some extent—but I am quite sure it is true to-day. Although about two-thirds of the increase in "C" licences has been in the smaller vehicles of thirty cwt. or so, there has also been a substantial increase in the number of heavier vehicles, which is a point pertinent to this particular argument. We hear rumours from time to time that there may be an attack curtailing the "C" licence position in order to encourage more goods transport on to the nationalised railway and road systems. I hope the Minister will say something about that and relieve the anxiety that traders have on this point, because if anything is to be done about cutting down the present increase in the "C" licences, there is only one way in which it can be done, and that is by offering and maintaining such an improved public service that traders would, of their own choice, make the change to the nationalised systems. To do it in any other way would be to take a most unfortunate step. It would be bound to put up costs at a time when, as my noble friend has said, we are being encouraged to try to bring them down.
I come, therefore, to my final point, which I put as a question to the Minister. Taking the long view, what does the Minister regard as the future pattern of our transport system? Does he visualise a system reduced substantially to no more than a relatively—I use the word "relatively" advisedly—small number of long-distance strategic railway arteries, off which all further distribution would be by road, or what does he picture? I am not necessarily suggesting that arrangement. One can in theory see many advantages—a possible reduction in overheads. I think one can also see another important advantage: a reduction in the great problem of road-rail competition, because by this arrangement the railway would have the best chance of competing on terms favourable to itself, and elsewhere one would find like competing with like—road transport with road transport. I think that would get over the problem of road-rail competition with which we are always faced. Of course, if it were overdone there might be

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disadvantages; but now that we have a single transport system I do think industry is entitled to know the lines along which those responsible for long-term planning are thinking and working to-day. I hope that the Minister will not try to evade the question by saying that it is too early to make any statement, because to my mind that is just what it is not. To the extent that we could be given some assurance that we were in fact working towards something that has the makings of a go-ahead and sound overall system, I personally would be prepared to overlook certain temporary deficiences. I would not overlook bad service nor would I overlook cases of real inefficiency like the two cases I have mentioned, but I would be prepared to overlook a certain measure of financial loss requiring temporary forms of subsidy. Therefore I hope that when the noble Lord replies he will give us an indication of the future —how the Commission see it working out over a considerable number of years ahead.
3.20 p.m.
VISCOUNT LONG: My Lords, I should like to join in thanking my noble friend Lord Teynham for putting this Motion on the Order Paper, and also to add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who in his new office will be responding on the Government's behalf. I have given a certain amount of notice to the noble Lord that I should be raising these few points this afternoon. As I understand it—and I speak as one who has been nationalised—in the road transport industry 3,000 firms have already been nationalised, and of that total 2,989 own fewer than twelve vehicles. As I understand it, there are only eleven firms who own more than fifteen vehicles. So what some of us said while the Bill was going through your Lordships' House seems to be true—namely, that this is a poor man's industry which has been seized, like the famous Naboth's vineyard.
Coming to my first point, if my figure is correct, how many of these firms have been fully compensated? I myself went through an extraordinary experience on the day of our board meeting. A most charming gentleman from the Road Haulage Executive walked in and said: "I am afraid I have come here to take
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you over." I said: "That is splendid. No doubt the secretary has my resignation all written out." He said that he had, and I told the Road Haulage Executive man: "I will not waste your time any longer; I will sign it at once." He said: "No, it is not so easy as that. You have got to vote me into the chair first, and then I will receive your resignation." That was my form of compensation; I was not only executed, my Lords; I was my own executioner! Little compensation have we had.
That leads me now to the question of senior men over sixty years of age who have given great service to the road transport industry and who were in positions of executive office. The Act said that they would be considered for a pension or for some form of compensation. It is a curious fact that when I went to various places in the country during the Election I found more than one operator who had met with a similar experience as myself, and who was now trying to fight the Ministry in order to obtain some compensation. It is difficult to judge this question of road haulage because we have no idea what is the working capital of the Executive. All we know is that up to date £25,000,000 has been paid in respect of undertakings who went in voluntarily under the Act. We do not know what else has been spent. Therefore, how can we gauge the liabilities in which this industry may be involved? I would like to ask the noble Lord, first: How many operators of those drawn in have been paid full compensation, and, secondly, how many have been paid only part-compensation? With 2,989 companies, each having their own firm of chartered accountants, it seems to me that it will he a long time before they come to any agreement. I recognise that the noble Lord may find it rather difficult to answer that question.
That brings me to my next point—namely, the question of the token payment. It is true that a part-payment has been paid to some of these companies, yet these companies were all owned by small men whose savings had been put into their business. They owed money to their banks, because they bought their vehicles on hire purchase and were gradually paying off the purchase price. The banks have taken the whole of the part-compensation that these people received, so they are no better off in that

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way. Finally, on this question of compensation, can the noble Lord tell us how much has been paid out in respect of both voluntary and compulsory acquisitions? We can then get on to some figures which will enable us to see what the future holds in store—whether or not these companies are going to pay. I want to give the experience of two companies of which I know, each of which was earning £10,000 a year under free enterprise, and is now under nationalisation making a loss of between £3,000 and £6,000 per month. Those are not isolated instances; they are going on all over the country.
Now I come to the next point—namely, the appointed day for the twenty-five mile radius, which I understand was on February 1 this year. In June, 1949, Sir Cyril Hurcomb said—I am quoting his own words:
"It is our intention that the latitude to issue original permits to continue operation shall be exercised in a manner and in a spirit which will acknowledge the importance of just treatment of the individual haulier and the interests of the trade, as well as the convenience of administration which should be a secondary consideratior."
I have been talking to some operators since February 1; and the position is exactly the reverse. I would like to give some figures on that question and perhaps the noble Lord may be able to give us some information. Out of 13,810 valid applications, 2,160 have already been refused, and of the 8,600 granted many have had their conditions whittled down in a way which makes the licence almost useless. I had personal experience of that in Bristol and Cardiff last week from more than one operator. We are already in the middle of March, and 3,050 cases remain to he decided. That does not reflect very kindly on the authorities, and on the powers referred to by the public relations officer who said, in a letter to The Times yesterday, that the Executive were always asking their regional officers to help wherever they could.
Then we come to the question of managers. I do not want to enter into a great controversy over this question, but I do know that there are many managers today who are only too willing to get back into free enterprise, where they are allowed to keep the wheels revolving for the traders whom they have served for so many years, and whose interests they
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know. Dealing with drivers, I asked the noble Lord in a letter that I wrote to him: Is it a fact that tinder nationalisation long-distance drivers are earning less than they did under free enterprise? Finally, I come to the customers. A good deal has already been said by my noble friends from the point of view of trading, and I know that in the West of England great anxiety is felt by customers and traders as a whole as to whether they are going to get the trade and the service that they received under free enterprise.
Lastly, what has happened about the rate structure? For many years road and rail were endeavouring to come to an agreement, and had the conferences gone on there is not a shadow of doubt that they would have come 10 that agreement. So far as I am aware, a year and a half after the Act has been passed, this matter is still under discussion, and there is still no rate structure produced either by the Road Haulage Executive or the Railways Executive.
I would add just one thing, in conclusion. What is to be the future for the 57,000 operators who to-day are not nationalised? Are they to be gradually forced down by Government control, through nationalisation, to accept a price now, when they have few assets left, or are they, in the future, to be taken over at a breaking-up price because they have not had a square deal from the Transport Commission. Speaking on behalf of the men with whom I have worked for a great number of years, may I say that I hope the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, when he replies will be able to tell us something of what is now in the minds of the Government in order that these men—those whose businesses have been nationalised but who have not yet been paid compensation, and those still left out of the net—may have some ground for hope. In the one case one trusts that they will receive their money in the near future, and not in three years' time, and in the case of those whose businesses have not yet been nationalised, one trusts that they will have a square deal from the various licensing authorities in this country.
3.30 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, to begin with, I should like to add my small meed

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of congratulation to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who is discharging duties of his new office for the first time in your Lordships' House to-day. But I am sure that my words count as nothing in view of the tremendous demonstration of confidence which the noble Lord has received from his own colleagues. Can a junior Minister ever before have had to support the burden of such a debate as this without having a single helping word from anyone on his own side? Of course, the noble Lord's colleagues have all been going round the country, as I have been; they have spoken to "old-timers" of rail and road and they know in their hearts that nationalisation of transport has been a ghastly failure.
I should like to make a few points of detail before developing my main theme. I notice that the cost of settling claims for losses of goods and damaged goods, as stated in this 1948 Report which we are now considering, was still £3,800,000 or 1½ per cent. of the merchandise receipts. That is a very high ratio. I hope that the results for 1949 will prove to be somewhat better. My next point—and I would beg the noble Lord not to think it frivolous, for it is, not—is that it would delight the hearts of tens of thousands of persons if the higher officials of the Hotels Executive could be made to "live off the land," so to speak, in the Southern Railway buffets for a week. The survivors, I am sure, would see to it that the catering at termini of the Southern Railway was brought up to the standard of that of other railway termini in London.
We sometimes debate the subject of travel in this House, and we are all fully aware that the travel industry is one of our greatest dollar earners and that it also earns us a great quantity of other foreign exchange. The tools of the trade, so to speak, are, in the first instance, hotels. Hotels are very specialised buildings, put up at vast expense for the special purpose of housing visitors. Does it seem sanity that one of our larger hotels in London should at this moment be occupied as offices by the Railway, Road and Hotel Executives? The Marylebone Hotel, I submit, should be given up immediately. If the Executives cannot live in the quarters from which the railways were once run, I commend to their
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attention that enormous Government office which has gone up in the West End of London. Let the British Council remain in their existing hide-outs, and let us put the transport authorities in those new offices near Davis Street.
The Report which we are now considering is for 1948, so it is rather out of date, but from the "green book of fairy tales" (The Monthly Digest of Statistics) it is clear that the railways are going down badly. The merchandise ton-miles are stationary, and the merchandise receipts are down—that means more work for less money. Coach miles are up, passenger receipts are down—again, more work for less money. It may well be that we are right in having an inquest. What is the ideal we want? The ideal is, presumably, a completely dual system with complete consumer choice between road and rail and free competition between the two. We have the existing railway system, which is a complex system with a huge staff for maintaining its assets but with a low cost of movement. On the road, we have a fine road haulage system with lower fixed costs and a higher movement charge. The result is that if the consumer pays a pound to send a ton somewhere, if it goes by rail he is paying, in very rough figures, sixteen shillings to lessen the losses of the railways and four shillings to add to the losses of the road; while if it goes by road the position is reversed. So if the freight goes by the rail it takes sixteen shillings off the taxpayers' loss; if it goes by road it adds sixteen shillings to the taxpayers' loss.
It stands to reason that if convenience was equal, the community would always gain if goods went by rail. The trouble is that convenience is not equal. I am not speaking about convenience in the financial sense, but physical convenience, and the problem we have to face is, can we afford the complete dual facilities? I submit that we cannot. Not only can we not afford the present cost of them, but we are now threatened with an increase in cost, and that we certainly cannot afford. The problem is how to cut these facilities without destroying the element of consumer choice and also that of competition. What we have to do is to reduce the number of people engaged in transport facilities in this country. There are too many at this moment. We

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can use the direct method of regimentation. His Majesty's Government may prefer that. I think the right methods to use are indirect, methods. Hew are we going to do this? First of all, traffic, I think, can be classed into three different kinds. The first kind is that which clearly can be dealt with best on the road: the second is the kind that can best be dealt with on the rail; and the third is a sort which comes in a "no man's land" between the two, that is, traffic of a mixed character. I maintain that what we should do is to examine the rail position so as to cut out as much as possible of the facilities which we are now offering for traffic which really could much better go by the road. To do that there is the possibility of closing a few branches, but not very many. On the other hand, it is possible to close down a large number of stations except for the purpose of signalling points and picking-up points for passengers to be carried in rail cars to the nearest junctions with their tickets sold and collected on the rail cars. That would provide very substantial economies.
Then, of course, the railways are paying far too much for the type of coal which they are receiving. If the railways were enabled to get the coal which they wanted they could save several million pounds a year. With regard to works, my impression is that there is a considerable degree of extravagance at the present moment. Wherever I go I see small works being carried on which are not strictly necessary to carry on the railways. The matter is referred to in the Report. The Transport Commission appear to think that in due course it will be necessary to rebuild the stations. I submit that it is a great fallacy to suppose that the modernisation and rebuilding of stations will collect any more passengers. The things which bring passengers are cheap fares and fast trains.
To-day there are 650,000 men employed on the railways, whereas before the war there were 550,000. The difference is accounted for by the Commission by reason of holidays, shorter hours and deferred maintenance. Deferred maintenance will not be with us much longer. Surely we are not going to be content with using the same number of people to do the same work as they did before the war. In America immense strides have been made in mechanisation of permanent way maintenance, improved painting methods and
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so on. It would be grossly wrong to assume that we need as many men as we had before the war to run the railways. I submit that the railways should be given the target of reducing their staff within five years to the number that ran them before the war, and even then I should not be content with that during the following five years. If we did that, we should be able to pay the men who remained a better rate of pay.
A new rates structure is required, of course. Not that we want more total money taken out of the pockets of the public; that is precisely what we do not want; but we do not mind if it is taken from somebody not paying it at the moment instead of from those who are. In other words, the railways, who have always had a raw deal in their rates structure, should be enabled to modernise and rationalise it. In the aggregate our aim should be a transport system as good as the one we have to-day with a little less consumer choice but competitive over wider ranges at a total cost not exceeding the total cost of road and rail to-day. Having rationalised the rail, the resulting lower rail charges will keep off the road traffic not really economical to send by road. What are the objections to this policy? First of all, there will be strategic objections. If there are, let us face up to them and pay a subsidy for keeping open uneconomic lines. It has always been done in India; why should we not do it here? Secondly, there is redundancy. No political Party has promised that every man should keep exactly the same job for ever. In any case, the railways recruit vast numbers every year and this question can largely be dealt with by the policy of suspending recruitment. I think the objection we are most likely to have is that it is just plainly impossible. I believe that is the answer the noble Lord opposite is going to give to my noble friend Lord Rochdale. I do not believe in impossibilities. It has been proved time and again that we can do the sort of things that the Railway Executive will say are impossible. This is rationalisation, and this is what I maintain we want.
What are the alternatives? The only alternative I can see is what is known as co-ordination, which means putting up the fares on the roads. To a railway man co-ordination means the elimination of road competition. I do not consort with

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road men so I do not know what it means to them, but possibly it means something of the same sort. If there is a tussle between road and rail, as dog does not eat dog the net result will be that they will split the traffic so as to make a comfortable living for all. Charges will go up and all will have money for their pet little schemes. The sky is the limit to the amount of money which can be spent, and plausibly spent, on transport. Nationalisation has removed the spur to efficiency and the curb on expenditure, and we must have both the spur and the check. Internal competition is the thing to spur efficiency and refusal to grant increase of fares is the curb to expenditure. For the time being, provided their house is really being put in order, I think we should be perfectly justified in providing a diminishing subsidy. This is undoubtedly the hard road, but I think it is the only road which in the end can bring good out of nationalisation. If we do not start them quickly on the hard road, the transport industry will be run for the benefit of the transport industry and not for the benefit of the consumers.
3.47 p.m.
LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, I have great pleasure in re-echoing what has been said several times now in congratulating, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on his new post. I hope that now that we have at the Ministry of Transport somebody who knows something about roads, something may be done about them. I have taken the liberty of giving the noble Lord notice of three points which I want to raise this afternoon. I am sure we shall have adequate replies to all of them, but I am not sure that I shall be satisfied with the replies when I hear them. The first question I want to ask is: What is the attitude of the British Transport Commission to what, from the point of view of the railways, I might almost call poaching, and what, from the point of view of the coach owners, is coach competition for traffic? There was a recent case of a coach owner who applied for permission to run a coach between Melton Mowbray and Great Yarmouth. There is a railway between Melton Mowbray and Great Yarmouth, the old Midland and Great Northern Railway, and in the days before the First World War there used to be quite a good service. When I was
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living at Melton Mowbray, just after the First World War, it was hardly running a service at all, and it took most of the day to get from one place to the other. What it is doing to-day I do not know. In opposing the application for a coach licence, the lawyer who was representing the Commission thought that the point had been reached
"when the court must say to the public, ' The trains are there; you must use them, as there are enough coaches on the road'."
If there are enough coaches available to be put on the road and it is the objection of the Road Transport Commission that has prevented their being there, that statement takes on rather a different view, at least in the eyes of the general public.
The Commission have been approached about their attitude towards that statement and their reply is so ingenious and cleverly worded that it has been taken in several different ways. I should like to know exactly what the reply means. The final paragraph of the reply, which has been published in the Press, said:
"The Commission desire to dissociate themselves from the suggestion that their policy is to oblige the public to use the rail services without regard for alternative facilities, whether or not the latter are operated by the Commission. The various transport services for which the Commission are responsible are subject to competition, and in any event the freedom of the public and traders to use those forms of transport best suited to their needs is safeguarded under the Act. Freedom of choice, however, is not to be confused with wasteful duplication of parallel services, and it has always been the function of the Licensing Authorities, who are not connected with the Commission, to consider that aspect of coach operators' applications. On such occasions it is usual and, indeed, essential to the national interest, to draw the attention of the Licensing Authority to the availability of rail services which could take the same traffic, including the special through excursion facilities which are offered during the holiday season."
After reading that, I cannot make up my mind what the attitude of the Commission is going to be.
The second point about which I want to speak is the question of the issue of new "B" transport licences, and the increase of fleets of existing transport licensees. The "B" licence, as your Lordships know, is a sort of hybrid—it is partly a "C" and partly an "A" licence. A man is granted a "B" licence when he wants mainly to carry his own goods but for the sake of economy wants to be able to carry other people's as well.

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The "B" licensee is that wise man who is trying to get the best of all worlds. There are some 30,000 "B" licensees. What will the attitude of the Commission be when these people apply for new licences, or the renewal of their existing licences? The "C" licensee, as your Lordships know, carries his own goods only, and he does it because it is the most economical and efficient method. By carrying other peoples' goods, and possibly taking a return load where he otherwise would not have one, and by filling up with a load when he has vacant space, an operator would naturally decrease his costs and increase his efficiency. If the Transport Commission are to oppose that type of licence, I take the view that they will oppose the most economical form of transport there is. Admittedly they cannot hope to compete with that kind of operator, because in normal circumstances their lorries will not be available at the short notice which is often given; and they will not be able to comply with the essential requirement of the "C" portion of that licence.
My third point is the "sticky" question of the supply of new vehicles. As some of your Lordships know, owing to the financial state of this country an edict has gone forth that the supply of commercial vehicles during the present year is to be cut by over 25 per cent. compared with the number supplied last year. The British Road Authority are obviously the biggest user of road transport in this country. When it comes to their going to the manufacturer, he will naturally feel: "I have got to look after these fellows. They will probably own all the haulage in the near future, and if I do not look after them now they will give the orders to somebody else in future." There may be a tendency on the part of the manufacturer to give undue priority to the Transport Commission. I would like to know whether there is any step that can be taken, or is being taken, to see that when the country greengrocer applies for his 30 cwt. van, or the farmer applies for his 3-ton or bigger lorry, they take their proper place in the queue and are not pushed out of it by the big national organisation. I feel that is an important point, because all over the country to-day the small man's vehicles are geting into a worse state, owing to the fact that they cannot be replaced, and also, in a certain number of cases—
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though not a material number—owing to the state of the roads in the districts where they have to operate. I should like to know whether any steps are taken to safeguard the small private individual. May I, in conclusion, apologise in advance, in case I have to run away before the noble Lord replies, but unfortunately the debate took me rather by surprise, and I had already made an engagement.
3.55 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I am sure we are all obliged to my noble friend Lord Teynham for having put down this Motion, because this matter is of the utmost importance. I would like to congratulate the new Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport on his appointment. I wish to make one point about the railways. I do so because for many generations up to nationalisation my family were connected with the great British railways—my great-grandfather was the first Chairman of the old London and North-Western Railway. Like many other noble Lords, I am gravely concerned at the great deterioration of the British Railways in the last two years, and also about their financial position. It is absolutely vital that these main lines should carry on in an efficient state, for they still carry the all-important heavy minerals for this country.
I do not want to cast any undue reflection on the present administration, but in my view the Railway Executive is too big and top-heavy. I agree entirely with what my noble friends Lord Teynham and Lord Hawke have said, and I feel that the only way to secure proper control of the situation is to break down this enormous structure. Undoubtedly something will have to be done in that respect, and I shall be pleased to hear from the noble Lord opposite what are the Transport Commission's plans. Either we shall be faced with a definite subsidy on the railways for many years, or they will deteriorate so far as maintenance is concerned. I do not think any country can allow that. Even when we have this co-ordination I do not think the road transport system will be able efficiently to carry the losses of the rail transport system, because costs have risen enormously on road transport, as well as on the railways. Therefore, if road transport is to be kept in an efficient state, and if new

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lorries are to he bought and proper maintenance given, there will be very little money left with which to subsidise the railways. In all earnestness I ask the Minister what the Transport Commission propose to do about this matter.
3.59 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I would like to say a few words this afternoon about the policy of the British Transport Commission in relation to passenger road transport. I find myself in some difficulty in this regard, because if one judges the Transport Commission by what they have done, I think we can offer them our congratulations. In the words of Gilbert, they
"have done nothing in particular, and done it very well."
At the moment, they have left a very efficient and well-run industry alone. But there are signs that this admirable policy, which suits both the fare-paying public and many local authorities in the country who are quite efficiently running their own transport systems, is not going to continue. One of the most ominous signs of what is about to happen is with regard to the fares in the London Passenger Transport area. I would venture to remind your Lordships that in this area the bus fares are already higher than anywhere else in the British Isles. Where you usually pay 1d. outside the London area, in the London area you pay 1½d., and where in other parts of England you pay 2d., in the London area you pay 4d. In addition Ito that there are no return fares in the London area. But are we going to stop at that? Oh, dear, no! In October next the 2½d. fare is going up to 3d., and in twenty-two out of the twenty-five stages fares for longer distances are being raised. For instance, the 1s. 3d. fare will go up to 1 s. 6d., and the 2s. 1d. fare will go up to 2s. 6d.
When we talk about the London Passenger Transport area, we are apt to think of popping on a bus from here to Victoria or to Waterloo, but many of us who live in the Home Counties know that the tentacles of London Passenger Transport reach out a very long way. This will greatly affect the farmer's wife going into her local town, because she will have to pay a much higher fare than she does at present. The only excuse
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given by the Transport Commission for the increase is that it is to "iron out anomalies," whatever that may mean. To my mind it can mean nothing else but giving support to the tubes and British Railways. Instead of using the expression "iron out anomalies," I should say that the right phrase is that it is "raking in the halfpennies." I think it is absolutely certain that there can be no reason for these proposed increases, except to offset the deficit at present arising on the railways. If a private company wants to raise its fares it has to go to those much maligned people, the Traffic Commissioners, and it has to show that its undertaking is running at a loss before it has any hope of getting an agreement to raise fares. I venture to remind your Lordships that in this House we made several attempts to make amendments to the Act so that the British Transport Commission should also be subject to the Traffic Commissioners and have to justify the raising of fares. But in spite of those amendments being strongly pressed, they were resisted by the Government.
We come back again and again to the crucial point: Should fares in one form of transport be artificially raised to subsidise another form of transport which is running at a loss? It is interesting to note, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, briefly mentioned, that this problem is not one which is being faced only in this country. It is regarded as of such great importance that it is a problem in which the United Nations have taken a considerable interest. In fact, U.N.O. recently called for a report to be prepared by the International Chamber of Commerce and it is shortly to be submitted at Lake Success. This report gives the basic principles which a detailed scheme for the co-ordination of inland transport should follow if the scheme is to be run in the long run for the benefit of the country as a whole. Here are a few of the main conclusions of this report.
"That the user should enjoy unrestricted freedom of choice among the means of transport."
It does not look as if the British Transport Commission is subscribing to that maxim, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, has already said, their solicitor at Nottingham—I admit there has been some explanation since—says "the trains are there and you must use them."

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"That transport for own account should be unrestricted."
Of course, that means what we call in this country "C" licence transport. Although it is perfectly true that at the moment "C" licences are unrestricted, there have been many veiled threats recently about the rising number of "C" licences and so forth.
"That healthy but not wasteful competition should be encouraged among different forms of transport."
I do not think that the British Transport Commission are very much in favour of that one. Their maxim seems to be to take over the lot.
"That nothing should be done to hinder the development of any particular form of transport in order to provide artificial support for any other form of transport."
Well, they are going precisely against that maxim in this recent raising of the London Transport bus fares. The last maxim which I shall quote is:
"If in the interests of defence or national welfare it is necessary to maintain certain forms of transport at the minimum level, the losses on those operations should not throw additional charges on transport users as such, but they should be nationally borne."
Those are tome of the suggestions which are being put before the United Nations, and I submit that the Transport Commissioners should give them very serious consideration, because I feel that their present policy runs counter to practically everyone of them.
4.8 p.m.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, I join with noble Lords who have already spoken in thanking ray noble friend Lord Teynham for initiating this very important debate. It will give your Lordships the first opportunity of hearing the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, address his very practical mind to these vital problems surrounding the rail transport system. With other noble Lords who have spoken I congratulate him on achieving this new office.
Those of us who have had something to do with or followed the problems which arose in 1921, when the railway grouping system was brought about, will realise the magnitude of the problems which face the Transport Commission to-day—that of rationalising the entire railway system of the country. What this plan is, and the number of decades it will take to implement, the noble Lord will no doubt tell us. Answers to many
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questions which have been asked by noble Lords who have participated in this debate will no doubt also be given. One might also ask —I expect it will come out in the noble Lord's reply—when, for example, will bogie railway wagons of 40-tons capacity, and more, be available for coal and mineral traffic? Great economies would naturally result therefrom, but obviously such wagons cannot be brought into use until adequate loading and unloading facilities are available. The whole question of transport, whether it be rail transport or road transport, or any other method, is of an importance which cannot be over-stressed.
Perhaps some of your Lordships will remember a report that was issued on this question of transport in the last year of President Hoover's Administration in the United States. Quoting from memory, I believe I am accurate in saying that it was discovered in the United States that 73 per cent. of the cost of the average article purchased represents movement—either movement of the coal from the face into the truck, or movement by road, rail, water, or air. That Committee was set up about sixteen years ago. This figure of 73 per cent. shows the tremendous importance of increasing the efficiency of the rail and other transport systems as rapidly as possible.
Some of your Lordships may have had the opportunity of reading a report which has just been issued by the Minister of Supply—the Lemon Report—The Standardisation of Engineering Products. In Appendix II there are some pointed references to the railway system, and matters that have been brought out in the debate to-day are touched upon. If there is not a complete plan already available for the rationalisation of the entire system, would it not be a useful thing to invite that Committee to sit again and expand its recommendations? The chairman, Sir Ernest Lemon, is technically and practically a man with vast experience in design and of the railways of this and other countries. For many years he was Vice-President for Operations and Commerce of the L.M.S. I would also ask the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, whether he will give some thought to the æsthetic side of these matters, as for example the new colour scheme. This scheme of cream tops with red bottoms is extremely unlovely and completely unpractical. Could the noble Lord not excite the interest of

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the College of Heralds and get them to work on an insignia for rolling stock? The Commission could then obliterate those unnecessary words "British Railways" and/or the uncomfortable lion who seems to be neither rampant nor couchant. Something should be done. At any rate, if the noble Lord will expand and act on the æsthetic as well as the engineering and practical side, we shall all be grateful to him.
4.13 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I think we shall all agree that this debate has been a useful one. I should like to join in the succession created by my noble friends and to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on his elevation to his present office. I should like also to say how sure we feel that he will give expert and sympathetic attention to all the points raised—and there have been a good many—this afternoon. My noble friend Lord Swinton, who I am sorry to say is unwell to-day, was to have spoken at this stage of the debate. I know we shall all hope that he will soon be restored to health and be able to take his place on this Bench again. Your Lordships may have noticed that the team of speakers from these Benches following my noble friend, Lord Teynham, have been, by and large, the same team that helped to deal with the Transport Act during its passage as a Bill through Parliament in 1947. Therefore they have all been watching this building up of nationalised transport and have been looking, I do not doubt, to see whether the fears that were expressed at the time were or were not justified.
I am not going to follow a number of my noble friends in the detailed points which they have put up. Lord Long. Lord Sandhurst and Lord Sempill have all made points of detail with which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will deal in his own time. This debate has centred round the railways more than any other form of transport, I think, because the underlying fear and apprehension felt on these Benches is the apprehension that other and more profitable forms of transport will be drawn into the orbit of nationalisation in order to subsidise the railways consequent on their having made a loss. They feel, moreover, that this business of paying for the losses on our transport will have
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adverse effects on industry as a whole—and just at a time when those adverse effects cannot be afforded. That, I think, is the over-all picture, so far as the railways go.
Lord Gifford issued a warning to us just now—and I was glad to hear him quote some proceedings of U.N.O. which, I am sure, lend a great deal of point to this debate. In I947, quite apart from the political considerations of the nationalisation of transport, the economic advantage was claimed that by integration (that was the word used) we should achieve a cheaper and more efficient form of transport in the national interest. The word "integration" at that time was very popular, because in many people's minds it denoted something which we all knew had been a great success and which had largely contributed to the winning of the war—namely, the dovetailing and interleaving of British and American Staffs under General Eisenhower's command. Whether that word turns out to have the same significance in the case of transport, I am not so certain. The scheme represented by the word "integration" was an economic scheme and, as my noble friend Lord Hawke said, it was intended to tackle the operating problems of these different types of transport in such a way that we should improve their efficiency and cut out redundant methods—without undue extravagance on the one side and without undue interference with the consumer's freedom on the other; it was to achieve the greater economy, efficiency and speed regarded as suitable to the general economic development which was expected by His Majesty's Government when they took office in 1945. So far, we cannot be at all certain that this has happened. The taking over of these two forms of transport—road haulage and passenger transport—is still in process, and therefore I do not propose to-day to try to pick too many holes in what is being done. At the same time I am bound to say that if we do not hear something satisfactory this day next year I may have something to say.
On the other hand, the railways have been nationalised long enough, I think, for my noble friends to make some perfectly fair comment. Rates have had to be increased, but railway speeds have not. The timing of trains, both passenger

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and goods, has not improved. There is still redundancy in the matter of staff, and all sorts of things like the closing of redundant lines, or using them solely for goods purposes or keeping them on a care-and-maintenance basis for strategic reasons. Here I will make the interjection that, if any form of transport is to be given up for strategic reasons, the cost of that should fall on the Service Votes and should not be mixed up with the operation of transport which, whether it is nationalised or not nationalised, ought to be a commercial undertaking. I say that in passing.
But to come back to the railways, my noble friends are perfectly justified in saying that, whether or not these advantages from integration are going to come, they have not come yet. As the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, said, painting the trains red and cream or devising a new lion (who, I can tell Lord Sempill, is statant), or even improving station gardens or train food—all those things are froth on the surface, and none of them affects the big problems of the railways. What is plain is that the railways are now incurring a very heavy loss indeed, whatever the cause may be. The loss is being incurred, and there will no doubt be a great temptation to those in charge to try to meet it by raising railway rates and by pulling in the profits on passenger transport and on road haulage to try to subsidise the losses on the railways—all done in the sacred names of harmonisation, integration or mutualisation, or what you like. If that happens, it will affect more than just this problem of transport that we are considering this afternoon—because, as the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, has indicated, 73 per cent. of everything we do is transport. Transport and the cost of transport affect every industry in this country, and affect all of us. Therefore, if higher rates are to be the order of the day, and if there is to be no escape from higher railway rates by using lower road haulage rates, then sooner or later the cost of production is bound to go up.
That, in its turn, unless I am greatly mistaken, is bound to lead to a demand for higher wages. And at the same time as all this happens the incentive which competition always produces, and which monopoly always stifles, will be taken away, as the noble Lords, Lord Hawke
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and Lord Rochdale, have so rightly pointed out. Therefore, instead of combating the infiltration by our handling of our transport system, we run the risk at this time of encouraging it. It is from that point of view that we must look at this whole problem, because now that some systems of transport are nationalised, and others are going to be nationalised, the Government are the trustees, just as they are the trustees of the value of the pound.
What are we going to do? We all spend a good deal of time pointing out the difficulties and the "jam" in which we are, but it would be a mistake if any impression were gained from this debate that we had no positive remedy. For my own part, I think that the quickest results in tackling this problem can probably be obtained by studying the set-up. If we go back to the debates in 1947, we shall all remember that my noble friends threw a great deal of doubt on the setup under which transport was to be run: the Ministry of Transport lying at the back, but with a card of re-entry into every hand if they wanted it; then the Transport Commission, then the Railway Executive or the Road Haulage Executive, or what you will, until you get down at fourth remove to the railway region or the organisation of the passenger road car company, or its counterpart of road haulage in the docks. I talk about railways for a moment now, but the same applies to other forms of transport. It is in the railway region that we see the focal point for operating.
As I ventured to say just now, integration is largely a question of operating efficiency. That has been found in time past, and certainly since the Act of 1921. It was in the railway region that you could combine a fairly broad view of policy with detailed control by specialists, and one of the things which the Transport Act has done is to break away from that and bring the specialists one level higher up to the Railway Executive, if not indeed to the Transport Commission. I believe that that change in organisation has more to do with the frustrations and the failures which have been expressed by my noble friends behind me than anything else that one might mention. We have a mixture, and a very undesirable Mixture, between executive action, which is the business of the specialists, and policy-making which, by and large, is the busi-

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ness of people with broader views. So the specialists have been brought up on to the Railway Executive and, at the same time, the part-time directors, who were a feature of our railways particularly but also of other concerns which are affected by this debate, have been replaced by advisory councils.
I am absolutely certain that that is a change for the worse. There have been a good many hard words said about part-time directors, but part-time directors brought an outside view to these problems, just as properly chosen members of the advisory councils will bring an outside view. But whereas advisory councils have no real status beyond a mention in the Act, and can be put aside at any time, a director has powers and duties under the Companies Act which he is bound to discharge. I believe that there again the change, small though it may look on paper, is one which is having a fundamental effect for the worse. I make those suggestions because I think they are right, and because I am certain that they tie up with a number of the difficulties which my noble friend has mentioned. In particular, I feel that this set-up has had a great deal to do with the delays which were mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Long, in dealing with the rate structure. That seems to me to be the gist of the arguments which have been put forward from these Benches.
We are now engaged in moving over transport from what has been described as the "private enterprise sector" to the "nationalised sector." I use those words, so to speak, in inverted commas, because they are words which have been invented of late years, I think partly by public relations experts in order to try to "condition" the public—again I use the word in inverted commas—into accepting this process of nationalisation as something which is inevitable in its gradualness and something which ought to be accepted as a matter of course, whereas, as we think, it is a thing to be scrutinised unrelentingly and opposed more often than not. However, this is going on, and as it goes on, if we are right in the views that we have expressed, so we shall go not only from the private enterprise sector into the nationalised sector, but from the profit-making sector into the loss-making sector. Industries which up to now have paid their way and not merely have been no
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charge to taxpayers but have paid dividends to a number of taxpayers as shareholders, will move into the red sector; they will become liabilities, not only because sooner or later they will have to be subsidised from taxes, but because they are making a most unwelcome and disagreeable contribution to the inflation which, I am sorry to say, seems still to be going on.
My Lords, these are not like battles of long ago—things that have been settled; spilt milk which must not be cried over. A great many of them are matters which are still in transition, and although this afternoon we have tried to base our arguments on what we think is the crux of the matter—namely, operating efficiency —there comes a point where the political aspect cannot be left entirely out of mind. The political aspect, as I see it, is this: that although it is perfectly true that the Transport Act is on the Statute Book, it would he over-simplifying the matter for us to say that, because that is so, therefore we must go through with it to the bitter end, whether or not it makes sense in 1950. Seeing that there is still time to prevent some of our industries moving from the profit sector into the loss sector, let us look at the matter realistically and with an open mind, and let us apply ourselves to what I think is the real task—namely, to see to it that our transport system assists in the creation of wealth instead of joins in the procession to bankruptcy.
4.32 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH): My Lords, may I first of all respectfully acknowledge the very charming personal references which all noble Lords who have addressed the House this afternoon have made? They have certainly not forgotten to put their horseshoes in their bouquets. They must have a very high opinion of any small ability I possess, because they have plied me with very many questions; but I intend to do my best to answer them. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, for putting this Motion down on the Order Paper. We welcome this debate. I will go so far as to say that we look upon it as a great compliment that transport should be chosen by noble Lords opposite as the subject for the first Motion to be placed on the

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Order Paper in this Parliament. We welcome it because it affords an opportunity. not only to report considerable progress, but to allay some of the fears and apprehensions which have been expressed by noble Lords this afternoon.
I am not going to weary your Lordships by going over the ground covered by the First Annual Report of the British Transport Commission. I expect most noble Lords have studied it with care. To those who have not yet had the time, I would commend it to their especial study, because I think most noble Lords will agree that it is one of the most impressive Parliamentary Papers of recent years. Neither do I think it would be proper this afternoon, in my attempt to give your Lordships as much information as I can, to anticipate the publication of the Second Annual Report of the British Transport Commission, or any debate which might follow its publication, either in your Lordships' House or in another place.
LORD HAWKE: Could the noble Lord give us some idea when it will be published?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The only guide I have is the date when the last Report was published. I think I am right in saying that the Report of 1948 was published in July, 1949; so I can only conclude that the Report for 1949 may be published some time in July, 1950. But I can say that 1949 has been a year of considerable progress, in spite of some very grave difficulties, not the least of which is the restriction upon capital investment. I want to deal with that subject first of all, because I do not think it is appreciated in the country how our railways have suffered from the restriction on capital investment. Expenditure on new works and improvements on the railways and London Transport, excluding buses and expenditure on running repairs and maintenance of permanent ways, was only £65,000,000 in 1948 and only £70,000,000 in 1949; and the provision for 1950 is approximately only 10 per cent. more. This allows for very little new building work. It is required to meet increased cost on essential maintenance and renewals, and to provide additional wagons for the transport of coal. That absorbs practically the whole amount, and there is no doubt that this
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restriction has hampered the railways very considerably.
I am going to give your Lordships just a few figures to illustrate the seriousness of this matter. The figure of 400 new locomotives represents the bare minimum necessary to keep the stock in sound condition. The present stock of locomotives is 19,875, and experience shows that an annual replacement of a little over 2 per cent. is required. The average replacement life of locomotives has had to be extended from 33½ years to 40 years, and the position now is worse than it was before the war. Your Lordships will know that the use of old and out-of-date locomotives increases the working expenditure and the cost of repairs. Turning to coaches, I may say that the recent passenger carriage stock of over 40,00C vehicles includes more than 8,000 carriages over 35 years old, and, since September, 1948, £320,000 has had to be spent on heavy repairs to 700 carriages 40 to 50 years old in order to give them a further three to six years of service life. The present stock is quite inadequate to meet the demands on it, and the capacity is still below that of 1939. I feel sure your Lordships will be the first to appreciate that these are very powerful contributory factors in discouraging passenger traffic and preventing the development of business. The restriction on capital investment precludes any extensive replacement.
The wagon position, to which the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, referred, is even more serious, owing largely to the poor state of the ex-privately owned wagon fleet, which amounted to 500,000 wagons. It was so bad that the scrapping rate has substantially exceeded the rate of new building. Even now, this stock includes about 100,000 wagons which are not economically repairable; and despite every effort to obtain new wagons and to build wagons of higher capacity, there is a risk of shortage by the autumn, and urgent research is taking place on means of improving turn-round time and speeding-up repair arrangements. Operating stock of wagons has fallen from 1,218,136 on January 1, 1948 to 1,109,802 at the present time, in spite of the continued uneconomic repair of old wagons, many of which have to go into the workshops as often as four times a year. I have given your Lordships those figures as an illustration of the handicap

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which the British Railways system is suffering, under the restriction on capital investment. I make no complaint about that restriction, but I think your Lordships should have those figures.
Now I would like to touch upon some of the points which have been raised in the debate, notably those brought up by the noble Viscount, Lord Long. Before doing so I would like to thank him for the courtesy which he has shown me—his usual courtesy, I may say—in giving me prior notice of the matters with which he was going to deal. He will, of course, appreciate that I acknowledge his kindness with special gratitude on this occasion. I would deal first with the issues of British Transport Stock. The total of British Transport Stock in issue on December 31, 1949, was approximately £1,159,000,000. The increase over the figures at the end of 1948 is accounted for by the purchase of the Tilling minority interests (£6,000,000) and the Scottish Motor Traction (£11,500,000), and the acquisition of road haulage undertakings (£9,500,000). The bus companies of which the Commission now have complete control operate 13,307 vehicles. The companies still retain their separate identities; they are not merged in the Commission and their services and fares are still subject to the road services licence procedure of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. That is a matter to which I shall return later. The number of vehicles operated by companies in which the Commission have a substantial minority interest is approximately 10,000. Perhaps here I should give the noble Viscount, Lord Long, this information. The number of bus undertakings that have been acquired by voluntary negotiation—as the noble Viscount knows, all bus undertakings have to be acquired by voluntary acquisition; there is no compulsory acquisition—is eleven. The principal ones are Tillings, Scottish Motor Traction, Midland Counties, and the Red and White group. In every case, payments have been made in accordance with the terms agreed. Perhaps, now, I may also answer another point which the noble Viscount raised—that about curtailment of services taken over. The British Transport Commission have no knowledge of any curtailment in any case.
VISCOUNT LONG: If I give the noble Lord an example will he have it looked into?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I shall be only too delighted to do so.
Further purchases of road passenger businesses are planned where suitable terms can be negotiated. With regard to road haulage, the number of undertakings acquired is 2,038–there are a few notices of acquisition out at the present time, but the acquisition has not in fact taken place. The fleet of vehicles at present numbers 34,339. The noble Viscount asked me a further question about the total number of road haulage businesses that have been taken over since nationalisation became operative. I have just given him the answer to that. It is estimated that when compulsory acquisition is complete, more than 40,000 vehicles will have been taken over. It will be seen that in respect of road haulage, the acquisition process is now virtually complete and all notices of transfer have been served except in only a few cases which may go to arbitration.
The noble Viscount asked me what was the number of operators who have been fully and completely paid up. This is a highly technical question. I could give noble Lords quite a long dissertation upon it, and I must say that I cannot marry my figures with those of the noble Viscount. There was a Treasury instruction that British Transport Stock should be issued only once every six months. The Commission realised that that was causing hardship and the noble Viscount has drawn attention to it. Briefly, quite a number of operators have been paid. I do not know how many cases there are where partial payment has been made, but there are about 1,069 cases of provisional ascertainment. The noble Viscount will realise that we cannot move until the acquired firms' accountants give us the necessary figures. The noble Viscount may rest assured that there is no hardship due to delay, because there is not a long delay in payment. Payment is made from the time of the acquisition and interest is paid in full over the interim period up to the date when acquisition actually takes place. As I have said, this is a very complex matter, and perhaps it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if I discussed the details with the noble Viscount on some other occasion. I have

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given your Lordships the broad outline and I do not wish to trespass too much on the time and patience of the House.
I now come nearer to the heart of this debate. This is connected with the word "integration," which was used by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and concerns the area schemes. Part IV of the Transport Act did not directly nationalise road passenger transport but provided in Section 63 (1) that the Commission could at any time prepare and submit to the Minister a scheme for him to approve for the co-ordination of the passenger transport services serving the area. Towards the end of 1948, the Commission took preliminary steps towards the preparation of an area scheme for the Northern Area of England comprising the counties of Northumberland, Durham and parts of the North Riding. Subsequently, in August, 1949, they made public an outline of their proposals and obtained the views of those interests which they were required by the Act to consult. At the end of January this year they submitted to the Minister the scheme prepared by them in the light of the consultations which they had had, and this scheme is now being studied. The time for making objections to my right honourable friend has not yet arrived, and as he will be in a quasi-judicial position I do not think I will make any comment upon the schemes at the present moment. The subsequent procedure is that if my right honourable friend approves a scheme submitted by the Commission, after consideration by them of any observation which he may put to them on the scheme as first submitted, it will be published in the form of a draft order. Objections will then be invited. If objections are made and not withdrawn, a public inquiry will be held. If objections are sustained after the inquiry, the order will have to be subject to special Parliamentary procedure.
The Commission have already had informal discussions with local authorities in the Eastern area about the merits of devising a scheme for that area. The Commission have pointed out that they have control of the four largest passenger transport undertakings in the area, and that perhaps that offers an opportunity for integration in an area scheme. But at the present time it is simply for the
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Commission to decide whether they go on with it. The point I would impress on your Lordships is that although under the Transport Act the Commission have the responsibility of promoting "a properly integrated system of public inland transport," the task of preparing schemes is a very complicated one. For example, the preparation of the Northern Area scheme has entailed the close scrutiny of one hundred Acts of Parliament in order to take account of the statutory rights of autnorities.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, quoted what I said with that strict accuracy which I have, always associated with him. I am not yet a sufficiently old politician to have arrived at the stage when I have to eat the words which I uttered years ago. I do not budge one jot from what I said then. When the noble Lord asks me what is the pattern of transport, I would reply that I am not a crystal-gazer. I do not know. Schemes must be formulated, and the noble Lord, with his wide experience, will know the likelihood of objections which will have to be considered. But integration will have to take place. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, in his valuable contribution to this debate, came very near to the heart of the problem. Some noble Lords talked about integration and economy and then went on to belabour freedom of choice. We cannot have 100 per cent. of both, and what is the best combination has yet to be found out.
I should like to say something about a question which I know is very close to the hearts of noble Lords in this House in connection with any nationalised industry—that is, decentralisation. For road haulage, the country is divided into eight divisions, containing 3l districts. In the division the aim of the Executive is to achieve the maximum devolution of responsibility for day-to-day operations and to leave the group manager, who is in charge of 150 vehicles, the direct contact with the customer whom it is his personal responsibility to satisfy. The group is again broken down to units of an average of 18 vehicles, as opposed to an average of two and half under the old "A" and "B" licence scheme. The lowest unit in the road haulage organisation is 18, and I think that is sufficient decentralisation to satisfy even the most critical. I think the Road.

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Haulage Executive are to be congratulated upon an excellent job done in a very short space of time.
The noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, asked me two questions. I would ask him to allow me to deal privately with his question on "B" licences and the extension of freights, upon which the noble Viscount also touched. I will go into all the details with the noble Lord, but I think it would be wearisome for me to do so this afternoon. The noble Lord's second question was whether the Commission had any priority for new vehicles. The answer is, none whatsoever. They buy them from the manufacturers, in some cases through the distributive trade, in exactly the same way as any other customer. They have no priority and they seek none.
I should like to touch on one subject that has not been mentioned this afternoon, but which I think is worth mentioning because it has considerable public interest. It is the amalgamation of the police forces of the various railways, and what is being done to deal with the terrible problem of pilferage on the railways. Amalgamation has been going on steadily and has reached an advanced stage. The pilferage problem has received the urgent attention of the Railway Executive and the progress made in this is best illustrated by a few figures. In the three months ending September 30, 1948, £928,489 was paid against claims for losses; in the equivalent period in 1949, £607,626 was paid—a reduction of 35 per cent. By the end of September, 1949, 1,029 security schemes were in operation for the protection of "vulnerable traffics," which is a polite term for black market goods. In this limited field payments for the period I mention were £87,286, the lowest figure yet recorded, and 58 per cent. below the 1948 figure. I think this is a remarkable achievement. For the twelve months ended December 31, 1949, the total payments for goods lost, stolen or pilfered were £1,728,986, against payments in 1948 amounting to £2,778,367–a reduction of more than £1,000,000. I think that reflects the greatest credit upon the reorganisation of the railway police forces and the security measures which they have taken.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, made a great point of the decentralisation of
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the railways. The organisation is being streamlined right down, so far as possible. Branch lines are being closed down, but the saving up to the present has not been great. Integration has gone on over the whole railway system. The noble Lord asks for integration and economy and describes the present railway system as being top heavy, but the only alternative he put forward was to suggest that the top should be multiplied six times. The noble Lord wanted six regional boards for the raiways. Frankly, I cannot imagine a more top-heavy structure than that.
LORD TEYNHAM: The Government are in fact doing that with the coal industry, which has Area Boards with autonomy.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Let me shoulder the responsibility for the transport industry and not have to answer for any other. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, made some comparison between the number of employees in road transport to-day and the number before nationalisation, and said that there had been a great increase. I should appreciate it if the noble Lord could tell me later his authority for that, because there are no figures of an authoritative character of the number employed in road transport before the war and no comparable figures to-day.
Perhaps your Lordships would like me to mention the position of the transport users' consultative committees. The Central Committee has been set up and the Scottish Committee, the Welsh Committee and the London Committee are all in being. As your Lordships know, the Minister may give directions to the Commission upon matters submitted to him by these consultative committees. The first annual report of the Central Committee has been submitted to my right honourable friend; it is now being printed, and will be laid before Parliament and be on sale to the public. The Coastal Shipping Advisory Committee is in active operation.
I now come to the burden of this debate, which I think is what is worrying most noble Lords—namely, the matter of charges. I would first of all refresh your Lordships' memories. Section 3 (4) of the Act requires that all business of the Commission shall form one undertaking,

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and charges the Commission with the duty of making their revenue cover expenditure properly chargeable to revenue, taking one year with another. Section 76 of the Act requires the Commission to submit to the Transport Tribunal draft schemes for determining charges in respect of their principal services. The ComtiVssion represented to the Minister in 1949 that the period of two years was insufficient, and the Minister, under his powers, extended the period to August, 1951, at the same time informing them that he felt strongly that the preparation of all the draft charges schemes should be pressed forward with the minimum delay. Since February, 1948, a charges committee, under Sir William Wood, has been hard at work, and has been in consultation with those affected by such schemes in order that the largest measure of agreement may be arrived at upon the principles involved before any case is submitted to the Tribunal. In December, 1949, the Commission published the draft outline of the principles which they proposed to embody in the charges scheme for merchandise traffic, and discussions are taking place with trading organisations and interests prior to the submission of the draft scheme to the Tribunal.
I would commend this booklet to the attention of noble Lords. These are the proposed principles upon which the charges schemes of the Commission will be based. The Commission have submitted to the Transport Tribunal a draft London area scheme as a first step in the discharge of their duty under Section 76 of the Act. They have applied for an Order confirming the scheme, specifying October 1, 1950, as the date from which it shall come into force. I am not going to weary your Lordships with the details—they have been published, and they will eventually appear before the Commission—but I think I should say in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, that the integration of London Transport is a special problem. When one thinks of the millions that have to be moved in London at peak hours one realises that it is one of the biggest transport problems of the world, and the principle always has been to integrate the charges between the buses and the tubes. No one form of transport, either bus or Underground, could attempt to carry the
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whole of the traffic that has to be moved in London between the hours of half-past four and half-past six at night.
It will probably be for your Lordships' convenience if I state quite clearly what is the position of the Transport Tribunal and the position of the Minister and the Commission vis-à-vis that Tribunal. Charges schemes must be submitted to the Tribunal by the Commission. The schemes do not require the approval of the Minister or of Parliament. The decision of the Tribunal is final, and it is arrived at after public inquiry. The only right that the Minster has is to be heard at the proceedings. This is the procedure which is to be followed when the draft London area scheme is considered by the Tribunal: the Tribunal will decide, and when they have decided, that is the end.
Section 82 of the Transport Act authorises my right honourable friend to increase charges pending the submission of charges schemes to the Tribunal, provided that before making any regulations he shall consult with and consider the advice of the permanent members of the Transport Tribunal acting as a consultative committee. Section 82 of the Transport Act was designed to meet just such an emergency as has arisen, and it is under that Section that the Commission applied to my right honourable friend in November, 1949, to make regulations authorising an increase in certain of their charges. The proceedings before the Tribunal, as noble Lords know, lasted thirteen days. Twenty-eight bodies, representative of all interests affected, were heard, and their cases were argued by learned counsel, including such eminent personalities of the Bar as Sir Walter Monckton, K.C., and Mr. Lionel Heald, K.C. Verbatim reports of the proceedings were printed and published, and the committee have submitted two Reports to the Minister. The first, dated February 6, deals with the application in respect of railway charges, and the second, dated February 16, deals with that relating to dock and canal charges. The two reports will be published by the Minister in the immediate future. The recommendation of the Tribunal, acting in its capacity as a consultative committee, is that the application of the Commission should be granted. My

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right honourable friend is now considering the reports and the recommendations in the light of their implications.
I have already stated to your Lordships the requirements of the Act, which charges the Commission with the duty of making their revenue cover expenditure properly chargeable to revenue, taking one year with another. The Commission were reluctant to avail themselves of the conditions of Section 82 of the Act, but were forced to do so when the net revenue deficiency showed signs of growing. The Commission's deficit for the year 1948 was £4,700,000, and the deficit estimated for 1949 is about £20,700,000, making a total deficit for the two years of £25,500,000. The Commission estimated that with their charges remaining as they are, even taking into consideration the economies in expenditure which can be made, and the revenue anticipated, the deficiency at the end of 1950 will be £30,000,000. Therefore, the accumulated deficit at the end of 1950 is likely to be between£50,000,000 and £60,000,000. The representatives of the Commission who supported the case before the Tribunal were subjected to examination and cross-examination by counsel and others for four days, the chief criticism being that the estimated economies were insufficient and that the future revenue had been underestimated.
Before making any comment on the question of economies, I think I can properly make two valid points. The first is this: the nationalised transport industry is the only nationalised industry that has its prices fixed by an independent Tribunal. Unlike coal, gas or electricity, it has to make its case in public, and is subjected to close and, one might almost say, fierce examination by all interested parties. The decision rests with the Tribunal when charges schemes are submitted, and with the Minister, on the advice of the Tribunal, in cases like the present application. I make no complaints about the procedure. Parliament in its wisdom decided that that should be the way. I think we have a right to assume that in thirteen days of fierce argument everything worth saying and every criticism worth levelling has been made and levelled, and yet the Tribunal decided that the Commission had made its case.
The railway charges which produce the bulk of the Commission's gross revenue
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are now in general only 55 per cent. above the pre-war charges, and the proposed increase would bring them to just over 80 per cent., whereas on weighted average their labour and material costs are about 120 per cent. above pre-war. This, and this alone, is the primary reason for the present unbalanced state of their net revenue. Every main commodity which the Railway Executive have to purchase is higher than pre-war by anything from 105 per cent., at one end of the scale, to 633 per cent., at the other. I will give a few examples: Coal, 180 per cont.; iron and steel, 105 per cent.; non-ferrous metals, 136 per cent.: timber in general, 291 per cent., and timber for sleepers and crossings, 344 per cent. Noble Lords have argued from that side of the House, and I have argued from this side of the House, that the yardstick of efficiency is cost and price. I am not disposed to argue that it is not. But if railway freight rates are measured by that yardstick they are one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest, commodity in this country to-day. The iron and steel industry, which is held up by noble Lords opposite, and by a lot of people in this country, as the acme of efficiency of private industry, are charging the railways 105 per cent. more for their steel than they did before the war, and yet the railway freight rates have been increased only 55 per cent. The anticipated extra revenue which the railways will get by this proposed increase is £26,300,000. The increase over pre-war years that the British Transport Commission have to pay for coal is £23,500,000.
Those are the facts, and they are stubborn facts when you come to consider the position. I do not intend for one moment to gloss over the very serious repercussions which this increase—if my right honourable friend in his wisdom agrees to it—will have upon this country's economy, but there are two points which I think have to be considered. The first is: How long can the Commission be denied the right of fulfilling their statutory obligations, and for how long and by how much can we allow this deficit to grow? The second question we have to ask ourselves is: If the Commission are right in their forecast that an integrated charges scheme—which is a colossal task doing away with literally millions of exceptional rates—cannot be formulated until 1952, what will be the effect upon such a charges scheme of a deficit which might

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have amounted by that date to £100,000,000? Those are very stern questions, and they require equally stern answers. It is no good burking the issue. I do not propose to make any comment upon the suggestions of the noble Lords, Lord Hawke, and Lord Rochdale, as to whether it would not be better to subsidise. I think that requires a lot of very careful thought, and I and my right honourable friend will study the observations of the two noble Lords with the greatest interest.
LORD HAWKE: I should not like to go down on record as having advocated the subsidy without the qualification which I gave, which was: provided that there seemed genuine prospect that the railways really were rationalising.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Quite so. As I have said, the main criticism, both before the Tribunal and in your Lordships' House this afternoon, has been that the budget of economy is too low while the revenue forecast is not high enough. This may well be true, but I think the Commission are prudent. In my lifetime I have made many expenditure budgets and forecast many revenues. In the event, it has never failed that the expenditure has exceeded the budget and the revenue has never reached the forecast.
One of the main criticisms upon economy was levelled at staff reduction, which again was dealt with this afternoon. It was pointed out—noble Lords have underlined this—that, compared with 1938, railway staff had increased from 572,000 to 649,000. It should not be forgotten that reduction in standard hours of work and the increase in annual leave, negotiated with the unions, has meant an overall increase of staff estimated by the Commission to be about 12½ per cent., or between 70,000 and 77,000. In an industrial factory, when you work a five day week you can shut your factory up for two days. When you work the equivalent on the railways of this country you cannot shut the country's transport system down for two days. I think that has to be taken into consideration. It should not be forgotten that a considerable number of staff are still engaged in overtaking war-time arrears of maintenance work, and there is no comparable employment before the war to
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measure against this work. But I can give your Lordships this information: that after a detailed investigation into the minimum needs of the railways, a redundancy programme was put in hand in the latter part of 1948, which to date has resulted in the withdrawal of some 29,000 men and women from the railway services.
While on the question of charges, may I turn to the point which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has made: How is it going to affect the docks? I think the point to bear in mind when considering the repercussions on dock traffic is that the general level of charges in United Kingdom docks other than those of the Commission was in most cases in excess of the charges now in force at Commission docks, and the increases now proposed will bring the charges at the Commission docks more into relation to those in force at other docks but still materially less than those on coastwise traffic in force at these docks. In considering the relationship between the proposed increase at the Commission docks and other docks, it is well to bear in mind that before the war charges in operation at the independent docks were fully economic, while those in force at the docks which are now operated by the Commission were not economic. In other words, they were subsidised out of the general railway revenue.
LORD TEYNHAM: Except Southampton docks.
LORD LUCAS OF OHILWORTH: That may be. Southampton is an exceptional town in many ways and it may be so in this respect. While I admit that the Commission have to look upon the whole of their activities as one business they feel that docks should make a greaten contribution to the general revenue. The, main complaint of the coasting trade to the proposed increase is not so much on the increased cost to the coasting trade as upon the fact that the proposals bring an increase of 20 per cent. on coastwise charges, whereas upon other vessels and cargoes the proposed increase is only 14.3 per cent. This relationship was the subject of advice from the Charges Consultative Committee in their report of November 15, 1946. They advise this differential, and the relationship between the two is being maintained. It is not

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being altered. The noble Lord asked whether voyages to Eire ports should not in future be treated as coastwise shipping. I can inform him that that is one of the main recommendations of the Tribunal, and it will receive, together with other recommendations, the consideration of my right honourable friend. With reference to the charges of 16⅔ per cent. on canals, it is not proposed to apply the increase universally, since in the view of the Commission this would not be practicable.
As I have already pointed out, road passenger fares are regulated by the licensing authorities, of which there are eleven covering the whole country. All road passenger vehicles controlled by the Commission are run under the identity of individual firms, who have to make their own case to the authorities for increases. From that direction we cannot see any possible increase in revenue. The criticism was offered that passenger rail fares should be subjected to increase, but the Commission hold the view that a further increase in such fares would not only fail to produce more revenue, but would probably result in less. I agree with the noble Lord's suggestion that what we want is increased revenue from the inducement of special fares for special journeys on special occasions.
Several noble Lords have mentioned one question, and I have sensed what is in their minds—namely, that there is going to be a curtailment in the future of what Lord Teynham called freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is generally provided for in the Act, and the same principle is embodied in effect in the draft principles for a freight charges scheme which has been published and which I have already mentioned. But freedom of choice, as the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, rightly said—and it was underlined by Lord Hawke—is not to be confused with wasteful duplication of parallel services. Integration means economy of operation, and perhaps if we realise that, we shall realise what integration really means. The whole purpose of Parliament in passing the Transport Act was to integrate the transport system of this country. I should like to give your Lordships three figures on this subject of freedom of choice. Independent hauliers operating "A" and "B" licences to-day operate 129,460 vehicles.
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The British Transport Commission operate 47,776 vehicles. "C" licence operators operate 672,301 vehicles—these are the figures for December, 31, 1949. "C" licences at the end of December, 1945, were 306,443. Not only is there freedom of choice, but that freedom is being exercised.
My final point is one which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, also made his last point, and that is in regard to Parliamentary control. It is clearly desirable that a public undertaking providing essential services and operating on the scale of the Commission should be subject to the oversight of Parliament. But it was clearly never the intention of Parliament to interfere in the day-to-day management of the national transport system. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, said my right honourable friend has all the cards. But they are marked cards, and Parliament marked them—and very effectively. The Minister can interfere only in matters which are clearly laid down in the Act as coming within his sphere. I am not going to say that in between total indifference and Parliamentary interference we have found yet the true mean. I do not think we have. I am not certain that the way to find it is the way proposed by Lord Teynham. I have some knowledge of this matter, and if the noble Lord has the opportunity he should try to think of the answer to this question: How would it be proposed to integrate the road and rail services of the United States of America? I should very much like to know what the answer is to that question.
I believe we have to solve the question whether there is sufficient public control over the general course of the Commission's affairs, as distinct from "accountability," under the various procedures laid down in the Act. This is a subject which is continually exercising the mind of my right honourable friend. I think the critics seem to lose sight of the amount of publicity which is given to the activities of the Commission. If the Annual Reports of the future take the form of the First Annual Report—and I see no reason why they should not—they will provide a mine of information. The Commission also publish every four weeks a statistical bulletin which sets out an analysis of receipts for every class of traffic and service, full details of staff employed and rolling stock engaged, together with a variety of operating statistics

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which, expertly studied, measure the trend of various efficiencies. Few industries give so much information about their activities. It is organised on the best industrial lines. A running internal audit has been instituted, according to the best commercial practice, and finally there is the Transport Tribunal, a unique instrument. No other industry has to suffer it. The nationalised transport industry has to bend to its will.
I am grateful to noble Lords for according me such courtesy and showing such patience. I have tried to give your Lordships the facts. I have tried not to offer your Lordships an apologia for anything that has happened. I trust that the noble Lords will not read anything I have said as showing a spirit of complacency. We are far from being 100 per cent. efficient. I think we are getting along the road. Perhaps the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, who has threatened to have another attack in twelve months' time—
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: Another inquest!
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH:—will be able to give us some more advice. I thank noble Lords very much for their constructive contributions. I apologise if I have not answered in detail every question I have been asked, but I will personally do so afterwards if desired. I hope that in the next debate we have on this subject I shall be able to report as much progress as I think I have been able to on this occasion
5.32 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, in the first place I should like to join with the noble Lord in saying that the Report of the Transport Commission for 1948 has been excellently produced and is very informative indeed. It is true that the railways have suffered some restriction of capital investment, but even that restriction does not entirely account for the enormous losses which they have suffered during the last two years. I pointed out earlier in the debate this wrong passenger train policy which was adopted—
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If I may intervene for a moment, I think what I said was that the main reason for a deficit was a 120 per cent. increase in the cost of the materials which they purchase.
LORD TEYNHAM: I will not quarrel with the noble Lord over the question of the main reason, but it certainly was a reason. I should next like to refer to the bus undertakings. The noble Lord said that eleven bus undertakings had been acquired. No area schemes have been put into operation, and one may assume that these buses are being bought out merely to stifle competition. The Road Executive need not go to the Transport Tribunal in order to put up their fares. The noble Lord also spoke about decentralisation. He mentioned decentralisation in road haulage, which I think is quite good: it has been brought down to a unit of eighteen vehicles. But he did not say very much about decentralisation of the railways. The point I am trying to make is that the Railway Executive is composed of a number of efficient functional men, and for that reason there is not proper decentralisation.
Then the noble Lord asked me where I obtained the figures about the increase in the road services organisation—I think I mentioned a figure of 2,600. My figures were taken from the monthly transport statistics, a copy of which the noble Lord himself held up to me a few minutes ago. As regards dock charges, I am not clear on this point of the differential. Apparently the differential was fixed in 1947 at 20 per cent. The other traffics are to pay 14 per cent. while the coastal traffic will continue to pay 20 per cent. Would the noble Lord for a moment make that clear to me?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am afraid that I cannot make it any clearer than I have done, unless I go into all the figures, I will give the noble Lord a copy of all the figures, how they work out and how they affect the position.
LORD TEYNHAM: I was very disappointed that the noble Lord put forward on behalf of the Transport Commission no plan for railway economies. It makes one think a little that the Transport Commission really have no plan at all. I hope that the noble Lord will suggest to his Minister—and perhaps the Minister might see fit to give the Transport Commission a direction, as he can do under the Act—that they should at once prepare a full scheme of economy which will show major savings. I hope something

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will be be done in that direction. In the hope that this will be done, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

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