Sitting of 27 April 1950

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  AYCLIFFE DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION (DISTRICT HEATING) BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 11th May.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Textile Machinery
    Mr. Leslie Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the value of orders placed for the installation of textile machinery qualifying for subsidy up to the most recent available date.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): I regret that the information is not available since firms are not required, under the Cotton Spinning (Re-equipment Subsidy) Scheme, to submit details of orders as they are placed but only when payment of subsidy is claimed.
    Mr. Hale: Surely, my right hon. Friend must have an idea of the extent to which this scheme has been utilised in the industry. Would he say whether he regards the utilisation as satisfactory or unsatisfactory?
    Mr. Wilson: I am certainly not satisfied. Up to 12th April this year, modernisation plans submitted by registered groups, involving a total expenditure of about £11 million had been approved. This, of course, includes new machinery
    Mr. Hale: Can my right hon. Friend say when textile machinery supplied to the home market ceases to be a matter of trade and becomes a matter of supply, because I observe that another of my Questions on this subject has become Question 146 and, knowing the Question as I do, it rather resents its inauspicious position on the Order Paper?
    Mr. Wilson: Anything to do with the operation of this scheme is a matter for the Board of Trade. The Ministry of Supply is the authority for the production of the equipment in question.

    Development Councils
    Mr. Leslie Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to give details of the additional industries in respect of which it is proposed to appoint a development council; and to indicate the dates when such appointment will be made.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Proposals for development councils for the wool, pottery, hosiery and cutlery industries are under consideration, but I cannot say anything further.
    Mr. Hale: While appreciating my right hon. Friend's special difficulties at the moment, would he observe—I hope, not without emotion—the air of patient resignation, mixed with tolerance, with which I listened to that answer?
    Mr. Wilson: I said something about the attitude of the Government to development councils a week ago, when I spoke at some length. My hon. Friend will realise that there is some legal doubt at the moment about the position of development councils. Therefore, it would be difficult for me to say more now.
    Mr. Jennings: Will the right hon. Gentleman make certain, when setting up development councils, that the majority of those in the industry concerned are in favour of such a step?
    Mr. Wilson: I think the hon. Gentleman can do more than I can to help bring the majority of the industry into that frame of mind.
    Mr. John MacLeod: If such a council was set up for the woollen industry, would there be a separate council for Scotland?
    Mr. Wilson: I do not think that there is any question of a separate development council in Scotland for the woollen industry, but the representation of Scotland might be a subject for Debate when the matter comes before this House.

    Nylon Yarn
    Mr. Wyattasked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the high price now charged by British nylon spinners, he will fix maximum prices for nylon yarn.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir. The Central Price Regulation Committee are satisfied that the present prices yield only a modest profit for the spinners.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this monopoly charges 8s. a pound more for nylon yarn than does its counterpart in America and that this makes it increasingly difficult for nylon users in this country to compete in the American market? Further, is he aware that they could reduce the price by 4s. a pound and still leave themselves a handsome margin of profit?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir. I am not so aware. The Central Price Regulation Committee have been into the question of costs very carefully indeed. As production increases it should be possible to have some further reduction in price.

    Newsprint
    Mr. Charles Orr-Ewingasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the present low stocks of newsprint, he is satisfied that supplies will be maintained; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Stocks of newsprint for the newspapers are at present above the level which they consider it reasonable to carry, and I have no reason to anticipate that stocks will fall below the necessary working level.

    American Cars (Import Licences)
    Mr. Reader Harrisasked the President of the Board of Trade what is his reason for refusing to grant import licences to American nationals who wish to buy American cars in America and bring them, or have them sent, to this
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    country; and whether he is prepared to change his attitude to this problem and grant such licences.
    Mr. H. Wilson: While British car manufacturers are devoting such a high proportion of their production to the export drive, it would, in general, be unfair to allow imports of cars from abroad. Facilities are, however, available for American visitors to this country who wish to bring their cars with them. American nationals who change their domicile to this country are also, in certain circumstances, permitted to import their cars.
    If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind and will let me have details. I will look into it.
    Mr. Harris: Is the President aware that if an American national was allowed to buy a car in America and import it into this country, the profit on the deal, in the case, say, of a Packard car goes to the English Packard company in dollars? Therefore, this country is losing dollars, in addition to the loss of Purchase Tax and Import Duty.
    Mr. Wilson: I am quite prepared to look at individual cases, but I do not think it would be possible to lay down a general rule.
    Mr. Harrison: Are we to understand that an American visitor can bring his car into this country and dispose of it under the arrangement which has been referred to?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir. I referred to American visitors bringing their cars here for tourist purposes.

    Potash Deposits, Whitby
    Colonel Clarkeasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made in the last year towards the winning of potash by mining or brine-pumping from strata near Whitby.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I understand that deep boring to prove and determine the extent of those potash deposits has been going ahead in the last 12 months at a rate which is considered satisfactory.
    Colonel Clarke: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether there is any possibility of this very valuable mineral for agriculture being obtained in workable quantities?
    Mr. Wilson: I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman about the value of this discovery, but the firms concerned naturally want to do very much more to find out how extensive is the deposit before they can begin to make plans for working it.

    Factory Estates
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the area of land now being used in development areas and other parts of Great Britain for factory estates which have been developed during the war, and are now being developed, respectively; and what is the estimated area of proposed factory estates not yet commenced.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Approximately 5,000 acres of land in the development areas have been, or are being, developed with Government finance, as industrial estates (as distinct from individual sites and small group sites). Of this area, about 2,000 acres,were developed during the war as Royal Ordnance Factories and subsequently taken over by the Board of Trade for development as industrial estates, and another 1,600 acres have been developed wholly since the war. Further land will be acquired as needs arise, there being at present about 500 acres either acquired or under consideration for development. The further information requested by my hon. Friend is not readily available, but I will write to him as soon as it has been collected.

    Industrial Estate, Kilwinning
    Mr. Manuelasked the President of the Board of Trade what plans he now has for the future development of the industrial estate at Kilwinning.
    Mr. H. Wilson: As I told my hon. Friend in reply to his Question on 16th March, the available land on the Kilwinning Estate is being held in reserve for possible future development.
    Mr. ManuelIs my right hon. Friend aware of the past history of Kilwinning as a depressed area, and of the keen concern of the local authority there that. despite the great amount of money being spent in clearing the area as an industrial site, only one small factory has so far been placed there? Is he also aware
    1108
    that the local authority is most anxious that more labour should be employed through the whole estate being developed?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I have been made well aware of the past history of this area, though I think my hon. Friend will agree that the employment position there at present is much more satisfactory. We are watching the situation, particularly to see how far private development looks like succeeding in solving the problem.
    Mr. Manuel: Thank you very much.

    Shipbuilding, Scotland (Employment)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the President of the Board of Trade what are the plans of the Government to take up the unemployment lag in Scotland caused by the falling-off in orders for shipbuilding.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I understand that the majority of the yards in Scotland have sufficient orders to keep the labour force at present employed on shipbuilding going for the next two years. But, as I explained to the House on 4th April, during the Second Reading Debate on the Distribution of Industry Bill, we are seeking to strengthen our powers for assisting industrial development in the shipyard towns and elsewhere in those parts of the development areas which may be threatened with falling off in employment, particularly on the ship repairing side, in the future.
    Sir T. Moore: Must we not look ahead? Would not an obvious solution be to use the industrial facilities at Prestwick Airport to create a permanent aircraft industry in Scotland, where the lag may be taken up, should it occur?
    Mr. Wilson: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will study what I said on the Second Reading of the Distribution of Industry Bill I think he will be satisfied that we are looking ahead in this matter.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the President aware that there is considerable concern on this subject in Aberdeen, and could he say what plans he has in mind for helping to develop other industries in that city?
    Mr. Wilson: I do not know whether the noble Lady is referring to ship repairing or to other industries, but I would be glad if she would put a Question down.
    Mr. Jennings: Does the President appreciate the very serious problems confronting the North-East Coast ship repairing industry?
    Mr. Speaker: I did not know that the North-East Coast was in Scotland.

    Hand-Made Pottery, Exports
    Mr. Gibsonasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) how much hand-made pottery, and its value in dollars, has been exported to the United States of America since the New York office of British Export Handicraft was opened;
    (2) whether his Department have, through British Export Handicraft, advised British craftsmen in pottery as to the types of hand-made wares which will sell best in United States of America.
    Mr. H. Wilson: British Handcrafts Export are an independent company for which the Board of Trade have no special responsibility. I am, however, informed by them that they are in continuous touch with a number of hand-potters in this country to whom they supply information, received from their agent in New York, as to types of ware likely to sell best in the United States. Since the opening of their office in New York in January of this year, British Handcrafts Export have sent to the United States a test consignment of about 2,000 pieces of hand-thrown pottery, valued at approximately 6,000 dollars at retail prices in the United States.
    Mr. Gibson: Will my right hon. Friend do his utmost to encourage this particular export of British handcrafts?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir; I think we should all desire to encourage the linking of the British handcraft industries of all kinds with the dollar exports drive.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman retain a small quantity of it for the benefit of the Festival of Britain?
    Mr. Wilson: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, there are many plans already in hand for examples of pottery
    1110
    and other commodities, showing what this country can do in design and craftsmanship, to be shown at the Festival of Britain.

    Imports (Empire Countries)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what percentage of United Kingdom Class II imports, namely, raw materials and articles mainly unmanufactured, came from Empire countries in 1931, 1938. 1945 and 1949;
    (2) what percentage of United Kingdom. Class I imports, namely, food, drink and tobacco, came from Empire countries in 1931, 1938, 1945 and 1949.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The percentages of the value of total Class 1 imports into the United Kingdom from the Commonwealth as defined for statistical purpose in the years in question were as follow:' 38 per cent., 49 per cent., 58 per cent., 50 per cent., respectively. Corresponding percentages for Class II imports were: 34, 42, 54, 51.
    The figures for 1931, 1938 and 1945 include the Irish Republic, Burma and Palestine, which are excluded in 1949.
    Mr. Russell: Do not these figures show that the percentage improved steadily from 1931 to 1945, after which it has decreased? How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile his answer with the statement he made in the House last week, when he said that the Conservative Party had talked about developing Imperial trade, whereas this Government had developed it? Does he not consider that the figures show that the reverse is the case?
    Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Gentleman will study the statement I made last week, he will see the justification for that remark. The statement which he made just now represents one of the worst misuses of statistics that I have ever known, because he must surely be well aware of the fact that in 1945 we were cut off from practically all our traditional sources of supply of food and raw materials in Europe, and also in South-East Asia. It was, therefore, perfectly natural that Commonwealth supplies should show an abnormally larger proportion in 1945.

    Industrial Fabrics, Argentina
    Mr. Fortasked the President of the Board of Trade what official representations have been made to the Argentine Government about its discriminating against this country in granting exchange for imports of English produced specialised industrial fabrics.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have not received reports from traders about specialised industrial fabrics on which representations could be based, but I will look into the matter if the hon. Member will let me have detailed information. His Majesty's Government have been exerting constant pressure on the Argentine authorities to secure the issue of import licences for United Kingdom products on a satisfactory and equitable basis. This will continue to be one of our main objectives in the current trade negotiations.
    Mr. Fort: Is not the President aware that the Argentine Government have granted exchange for French, German and even Austrian paper felt makers, and can he assure the House that the granting of exchange for specialised British industrial cloths will not be prejudiced by any negotiations going on now regarding exchange for meat?
    Mr. Wilson: I am well aware of the unsatisfactory position in granting licences for many of our exports to the Argentine, but, as I have said, the purpose of these negotiations is to improve facilities for licences for our manufacturers.

    Softwood
    Mr. Bossomasked the President of the Board of Trade what special efforts are being made to get all the softwood essential to prevent any hold-up to this year's housing programme.
    Mr. H. Wilson: In planning the housing programme, account is taken of the softwood which will be required for this and other essential uses. In addition to our imports from Scandinavia and other normal suppliers, we are attempting to increase the rate of supplies from Russia, while imports are, of course, being made also from North America.
    Mr. Bossom: Could the Minister say whether we are getting as much from Sweden as we did last year?
    Mr. Wilson: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on that, but I can assure him that we are doing everything possible to maintain and improve supplies, and he may care to know that the Timber Controller is next week going to Moscow to negotiate for supplies from Russia.
    Mr. Bossom: The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to have heard what I said. I was not talking about Moscow, but Sweden. Have we not actually cut down the amount of softwood which we are getting from Sweden this year?
    Mr. Wilson: There has been no question of cutting down the amount this year, but the negotiations for buying there are not yet completed.
    Mr. Nabarro: Can the President say whether any progress has been made in the negotiations between his Department and the merchanting firms who, in prewar days, were responsible for softwood imports, in regard to the decontrol of softwood on lines similar to the decontrol of hardwood?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I made a statement last week about the particular conditions, which I am quite sure this House would wish to insist upon before there were such reversion, and I commented that the private traders considered that my suggestions for the removal of these controls were impracticable.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: The right hon. Gentleman said that a high official was going to Moscow, but could he assure the House that everything possible has been done to increase the import of softwoods from Canada rather than going to Moscow?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, within the limit of the dollars available.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: What about exchanging steel?
    Mr. Wilson: The hon. and gallant Gentleman should be aware by this time—because we have dealt with it many times in the past—that a simple barter of steel against timber in Canada would make very little difference indeed to the amount of timber we should get, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman can work out for himself if he looks at the price.
    Colonel Gonune-Duncan: Rubbish

    Utility Hosiery (Prices)
    Mr. Osborneasked the President of the Board of Trade what will be the effect on hosiery utility prices of the increase of nearly 50 per cent. in the price of wool since devaluation.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The effect will vary according to the amount and type of wool in each garment. Increases already made in manufacturers' maximum prices for hosiery since devaluation amount on an average to about 12 per cent.
    Mr. Osborne: Would not the Minister agree that this is yet another addition to the cost of living, and disproves the Chancellor's statement that bread would be the only food to rise in price as a result of devaluation?
    Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Gentleman would once again study what my right hon. and learned Friend said, he would see that there was no disparity between what he said and what has happened.
    Mr. Spence: Will the right hon. Gentleman do something to speed up the revision of prices in this rapidly rising market? Is he aware that the prices given by his Department today are based on the raw material prices obtaining last September?
    Mr. Wilson: As far as hosiery is concerned, I think we are fairly speedy. I am not prepared to agree to increases in prices at too early a stage before the goods arrive in the shops, and I would count on the support of the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members opposite to help to fight the rising cost of living.

    Steel Exports
    Captain Ryderasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give an assurance that we have now stopped all exports of steel, tinplate and engineering equipment to the Soviet Union and her satellites.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir. If the hon. and gallant Member is thinking of security considerations, I can assure him that there is already control over exports which we feel should be stopped on security grounds.
    Captain Ryder: Is it not a fact that we badly need more steel for export to Canada, and that instead of the right hon.
    1114
    Gentleman blaming the steel industry for not doing enough to meet our requirements we would be better off if we stopped supplies to Russia and sent them to Canada?
    Mr. Wilson: As far as I know, very little steel will be going to Russia this year. We hope to be able to supply all the needs of the Canadian market for steel this year, apart from one or two specialities. Any diversion of steel to Canada from other markets would make very little difference.
    Mr. M. Philips Price: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that engineering exports to Russia are concerned with the exploitation of Russia's forests, and therefore assist us in the import of timber to this country?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, it is certainly timber-getting equipment.
    Mr. Marples: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that next year this country will supply Canada with all the steel she requires and asks for?
    Mr. Wilson: I am very hopeful of doing that, but it is very difficult to say how much steel Canada will want to take until there is agreement between the trade and Canadian importers on the question of price. We are certainly looking forward to a big increase in our exports to Canada this year if Canada wants to have it.

  FIRE SERVICES

    Cost
    Mr. Bevinsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the gross cost of fire services to local authorities and His Majesty's Government together, in 1938-39 and 1948-49, respectively.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): The gross cost in 1948-49 of the fire services in England and Wales was approximately £12,000,000, of which approximately £3,200,000 was borne by the Exchequer. Information for the year 1938-39 is not available; there was not then any Government grant in aid of fire brigade expenditure.
    Mr. Bevins: As it is generally admitted that there has been a very large increase in the cost of these services, will

    1115
    the right hon. Gentleman consider a scheme for complete decentralisation to focal authorities?
    Mr. Ede: They are entirely local services now.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right lion. Gentleman aware that the figures for 1948-49 put the sum for a course for students at the National Fire Service College at £40 a week? Will he see that that sort of expenditure is curtailed?
    Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir, I have the problem of the National Fire Service College very much in mind.

    Fires (Statistics)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of fires in England during the last 12 months; the number which resulted in fatal casualties; and the chief causes of such fires.
    Mr. Ede: The latest figures which are readily available are those for the year ended 31st December, 1949. During that period 92,879 fires were attended by the local authorities' fire brigades in England and Wales. The number of fatal casualties at these fires was 457. The probable causes have not yet been fully analysed. The indications are that about 20 per cent. of the total number of fires in buildings were due to sparks etc. from fires in open grates, and about 10 per cent. were due to carelessness in the use of smoking materials.
    Mr. Nicholson: Does the figure of 92,000 include heath and common fires?
    Mr. Ede: They include all fires. The number was somewhat higher during 1949 owing to the hot summer, which gave rise to an additional number of heath fires.

  Police

    Pensions
    Mr. Henry Brookeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the grievance felt by men who joined the Metropolitan Police between 1919 and 1921 under a contract entitling them to full pension after 26 years' service, but are now denied
    1116
    full pension unless they complete 30 years' service; and, having regard to the principle that the Government should act like a good employer, if he will remedy the injustice done to these men in having their pensions rights worsened without their consent.
    Mr. Ede: I have given close personal attention to the representations made from time to time on behalf of the officers who joined the Metropolitan and other police forces between 1st July, 1919, and 28th August, 1921, and who were affected by the new scales of pensions introduced by the Police Pensions Act, 1921, but I have not felt able to propose legislation altering in this respect the provisions of the Statute passed by Parliament in 1921. The Oaksey Committee, who considered similar representations made on behalf of these officers, reached the conclusion that it would not be practicable to reopen the question.
    Mr. Martin Lindsay: Does tile right hon. Gentleman admit that there has been a breach of contract?
    Mr. Ede: I was not responsible for what happened in this House in 1921. My own view is that these men were, in fact, hardly treated, and I have spent a great deal of time, in personal consultation with the Police Federation, in trying to work out a scheme that would be just, and which I could commend to the House. But I was forced to reach the same conclusion as the Oaksey Committee that, at this stage, owing to the number of men who have retired, died, and other things, it is quite impossible to reopen the question.
    Sir H. Williams: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the grievance arose not in 1921, but in 1946, when he was responsible?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir, it did not arise then. By that time successive Governments had, from time to time, had to face this question, and reached the same conclusion as I have reached.

    Retired Men (Re-employment)
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consider recruiting ex-policemen who have retired on account of age or on account of disabilities which do not preclude them from certain duties, on a tem-

    1117
    porary basis, to make up to some extent for the present shortage in the Force.
    Mr. Ede: While the question of rebuilding the first police reserves is at present under consideration, there are few police duties on which it would be appropriate to employ men who have retired from the service on account of age or disabilities. I have, however, recently asked police authorities and chief officers of police to consider the extended use of civilian staff for office and similar work and so to release police for other duties: retired police officers with the necessary qualifications might well be considered for such employment.
    Sir I. Fraser: Does not experience in Resistance movements and irregular forces, and even in the Home Guard, suggest that slightly older men and slightly disabled men may be extremely useful in selected jobs? Does the right hon. Gentleman not know of the prowess of Wiley Post and Bader and even of Lord Nelson?
    Mr. Ede: Those men, I understand, are not available for recruiting. But I have given an indication in the reply I made to the hon. Member that I am anxious that men of experience, who can be properly employed to release younger men for more active service, should be brought in, where they are willing to come.
    Mr. Marlowe: Will the Home Secretary, in supplementing the regular Police Force, resist the suggestion of the Attorney-General to create a Hitler Youth?

  JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
  Mr. Profumoasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how far he attributes the figures of juvenile convictions in each of the years 1945 to 1950 to overcrowded homes.
  Mr. Ede: The causes of juvenile delinquency are many and varied, and more than one factor may be operative in any particular case. Other things being equal, a child from a home that is not overcrowded has doubtless a better chance in life, but it is not, in my view, possible to attribute any precise amount of juvenile delinquency to a single cause such as overcrowding.
  Mr. Profumo: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he looked into the reports of probation officers and of juvenile convictions he would find that a very high proportion of those convictions concerned young people coming from overcrowded homes? In view of that fact, is he prepared to recommend to the Minister of Health that an even higher figure for houses completed should be aimed at?
  Mr. Ede: I think that overcrowding is one of the causes; it is not the only cause, nor do the people to whom the hon. Member referred put it as the principal cause.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Will my right hon. Friend say to what extent the legacy of overcrowding was due to the criminal neglect of the party opposite?
  Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that magistrates, particularly in industrial areas, are very concerned about the number of juvenile crimes which arise through overcrowded houses and through parents being separated owing to overcrowding? In view of that, would he make strong representations to the Minister of Health to raise the house-building target from the very low level at which it is at present?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir, I am not prepared to do that.

  CORONERS' COURTS
  Mr. Marloweasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the urgent need to introduce legislation to amend the law relating to coroners' courts; what steps he has taken consequent upon his undertaking of 5th February, 1948, to look into this question; and whether it is intended to implement any of the recommendations on this subject contained in the report of the Lord Wright Committee made in 1935.
  Mr. Ede: Most of the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Coroners could be implemented only by legislation. Although I have not overlooked the desirability of reviewing the law relating to coroners, I cannot promise to introduce legislation on this difficult and controversial question in the near future.
  Mr. Marlowe: Does the Minister not agree that a large measure of the reform which is required is not controversial at all, and that there is a wide measure of agreement as to what needs to be done? Does he not think that a Parliament such as this provides a good opportunity for legislation of this kind?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir. I have had negotiations with the coroners on this matter and I found no point in discussions with them which was not controversial.
  Earl Winterton: Is the Home Secretary aware that again and again, so far as it is possible to do so under the Rules of the House, attention has been called to the fantastic anomaly of the present law and the extraordinary latitude allowed to these people? Why should he not bring in a Bill which provokes no party controversy, and which we could leave to the discretion of the House to pass? Is he aware that two years ago he promised to give consideration to this most urgent question?
  Mr. Ede: I have been giving consideration to it.
  Mr. Marlowe: Does not the Home Secretary agree that most of the controversy comes from the coroners themselves, and that it is in order to remove from them certain privileges, which they are trying to safeguard, that this House ought to act?
  Mr. Ede: Coroners are also God's creatures.

  STOWAWAYS
  Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many stowaways are known to have landed in Britain since the end of the war; and from what countries they have come.
  Mr. Ede: From 7th August, 1945, to 31st March, 1950, 1,653 alien stowaways and from 1st January, 1946, to 31st March, 1950, 2,141 British stowaways arrived in the United Kingdom. I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT tables showing the nationality of the alien stowaways and the territories from which the British stowaways came.
  Mr. Reid: Are the British stowaways repatriated to the place from which they came?
  Mr. Ede: They are in certain cases.
  Sir T. Moore: Could the Home Secretary say how many British stowaways have left Britain since 1945?
  Mr. Ede: That is not a matter that comes within the scope of my Department.
  Following are the tables:

  ALIEN STOWAWAYS

  7th August, 1945, to 31st March, 1950

  Austrian

  2

  Belgian

  10

  Brazilian

  1

  Chinese

  2

  Cuban

  2

  Czech

  9

  Danish

  9

  Dutch

  56

  Egyptian

  14

  Estonian

  2

  Finnish

  110

  French

  58

  German

  85

  Greek

  35

  Hungarian

  20

  Italian

  10

  Yugoslav

  5

  Latvian

  1

  Mexican

  2

  Norwegian

  20

  Polish

  130

  Portuguese

  265

  Roumanian

  36

  Russian

  3

  Spanish

  291

  Swedish

  21

  Swiss

  4

  Turkish

  3

  U.S.A.

  30

  Other Europeans

  14

  Central American

  20

  Other non-European nationals

  42

  Stateless or nationality doubtful

  341

  Total

  1,653

  STOWAWAYS CLAIMING TO BE BRITISH

  1st January, 1946, to 31st March, 1950

  From:

  Aden and Yemen

  …

  …

  38

  Bahamas

  …

  …

  1

  Barbados

  …

  …

  18

  Bermuda

  …

  …

  2

  British Guiana

  …

  …

  15

  British Somaliland

  …

  …

  64

  East Africa

  …

  …

  10

  Gambia

  …

  …

  153

  Gold Coast

  …

  …

  299

  Jamaica

  …

  …

  374

  Kenya

  …

  …

  10

  Nigeria

  …

  …

  426

  Sierra Leone

  …

  …

  263

  Trinidad

  …

  …

  26

  Other territories

  …

  …

  442

  Total

  2,141

  HACKNEY CARRIAGE LAW (REPORT)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to receive the report of the Working Party on Hackney Carriage Law.
  Mr. Ede: I asked the Working Party at the end of 1949 to give priority to the question of limiting the number of drivers and cabs in the Metropolitan Police district. I understand that they hope to let me have this interim report shortly.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In view of the continued and growing dissatisfaction of owners and drivers of cabs in the London area, will the Home Secretary give an assurance that as soon as this report is forthcoming he will take some action on it?
  Mr. Ede: The Working Party consists of representatives of the owners and drivers to whom the hon. and gallant Member has referred. I shall be only too happy to consider the report if they will get on with the job.

  HOUSING

    Building Licences
    Mr. Watkinsonasked the Minister of Health whether he will now grant local authorities the right to issue additional building licences where they are satisfied that the licence is for an owner-occupier and that the site, materials and labour are readily available.
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that approximately 7,000 houses in Portsmouth were completely destroyed in the war, most of which were private houses, he will relax the existing one in nine rule, and allow the building of private houses to proceed in accordance with the requirements of this city.
    Mr. Marplesasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the increase in the housing programme, he proposes to alter the ratio between local authority and private enterprise building.
    Mr. Alportasked the Minister of Health (1) whether he will
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    grant licences to people prepared to build houses for their own occupation without employing other labour and where the material used makes only a very limited demand upon resources of building material, additional to the normal allocation to local authorities;
    (2) whether, in view of the increased number of houses to be built during the year 1950-51, he is prepared to restore the ratio between local authority houses and private enterprise houses to the previous figure of four to one.
    Mr. M. Philips Priceasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider, where a local authority's housing programme is well advanced, relaxing the order that only one house may be built by a private person for every ten built by the councils to let.
    Mr. Blackasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the housing target has been reinstated at 200,000 houses per year, he will now reinstate the quota of houses which may be built privately under licence at one to every four houses built by the local authorities.
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Health if, after consideration of the representations made to him by housing authorities in rural areas, he is now prepared to modify the rule that in no district may more than one house in ten be built by private enterprise.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): I have this matter under consideration and hope to make an announcement soon.
    Mr. Watkinson: When does the Minister hope to be in a position to make an announcement?
    Mr. Bevan: I hope next week.
    Mr. Marples: Will the Minister bear in mind that the Government axe, which fell in September, provided that the cuts should fall entirely on private enterprise building? That being so, is it not fair that the restoration should be made to private enterprise?
    Mr. Bevan: I thought the Opposition was against retrospective legislation.
    Brigadier Clarke: Does the Minister realise that building resources are being

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    wasted upon putting up cold frames, greenhouses and other things because we cannot afford his nine in one housing ratio?
    Mr. Bevan: I understand the hon. and gallant Member is now expressing a rebuff to the way in which private enterprise wastes the nation's resources.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: As these eight Questions are being taken together it is only right that each hon. Member who put a Question down should have the right to ask one supplementary question before those not on the list.
    Mr. Alport: Is the Minister aware that Question No. 89 is not identical with Question No. 37, and raises quite a different point? Question No. 89 is a request to the Minister to consider whether he will allow those who are able and willing to build their own houses, with their own labour, to get the licences which we believe they are entitled to have. Will the Minister not consider these as special cases, regardless of any decision on the apportionment to private enterprise?
    Mr. Bevan: It raises exactly the same point as to whether licences are to be given in greater proportion for the erection of houses under private ownership, and I hope to make a statement next week.
    Mr. M. Philips Price: Where the completion of a local authority programme is well advanced, will not the Minister allow a little more latitude in connection with private housing than has been allowed hitherto?
    Mr. Bevan: The reason why I am not able to make an announcement at once is because I am not only hoping to revise the relationship between local authority housing and private licences. I am also hoping to introduce some refinements which will give greater flexibility to the licensing system, but I must find out whether, administratively, they are generally practicable.
    Mr. Hurd: Will the Minister allow discretion to rural authorities, to whom this problem is one of particular urgency?
    Mr. Bevan: I must also consider that in the rural areas there would be very often a far smaller proportion of persons able to afford to build privately.
    Mr. Gibson: Is it not a fact that private enterprise in many large towns has not taken up the full allocation already given to it?
    Mr. Bevan: That is the case. That is why it is necessary to have flexibility in the matter. It has already been realised that there are some areas where the ratio of one in ten is far too high a proportion for the area to take up.

    Applications
    Mr. Profumoasked the Minister of Health whether his Department has completed the sorting of live applications for houses as the result of the information he received, following his Department's Circular No. 171/48 of 10th November, 1948; and whether he will inform the local authorities of the result.
    Mr. Bevan: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply- given to Questions on this subject on 9th March, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Profumo: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has now been occupying his Department for some 17 months? Is it not true that the whole scheme is abortive, and a very good example of what my hon. Friends on this side of the House refer to as wasteful Government expenditure?
    Mr. Bevan: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by " scheme.' This was an attempt to find out the housing needs by reviewing the housing lists. It was, however, discovered that there was so much duplication of lists made up of varying criteria that no national figures would have any validity.
    Mr. Profumo: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long he thinks it will be before this scheme—I again call it a scheme because, so far, it is only a scheme —will come to fruition and local authorities will be informed of the result?
    Mr. Bevan: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by " scheme." As was explained in the answer, the only way to find out the actual housing needs of the country is a house to house survey, which would involve the use of large sums of public money and personnel.

    Carriageways
    Mr. Profumoasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that although the Housing Manual, 1949, provides for a carriageway 13 feet in width in a cul-de-sac not more than 600 feet in length, county councils are, in some areas, insisting upon such roads being of a minimum width of 15 feet or 16 feet, and that this difference of opinion between the highway authority and his Department is causing delay in the approval by his Department of housing schemes; and whether he will make arrangements for early discussions with the Minister of Transport, with a view to arriving at an agreed standard to which housing authorities can work.
    Mr. Bevan: I am not aware of any serious delays from this cause, but it is obviously desirable to have accepted minimum standards in this matter. My Department and the Ministries of Transport and Town and Country Planning have already held discussions with the Local Authorities' Associations on the standards provisionally recommended in the Housing Manual, and I hope that as a result an agreed schedule of road widths will be produced.

    Rent Tribunals
    Mr. John Hayasked the Minister of Health whether he will introduce legislation to give a right of appeal from the decisions of local rent tribunals to a Central Appellate Tribunal.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hay: Why not?
    Mr. Bevan: Because the Statute prohibits it.
    Mr. Jaaner: Will my right hon. Friend take into consideration, before he considers this point at all, the fact that tenants who apply to rent tribunals are not permitted any costs and that the rent tribunals themselves are not in a position to employ counsel in cases where they are in difficulty?
    Mr. Bevan: That is why I said " No."
    Sir H. Williams: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman's original answer was that the Statute prevents him from introducing further legislation?
    Mr. Bevan: That answer was to a supplementary question. My original
    1126
    answer was that this was very adequately discussed when the matter was before the House. On the whole, I think the experience of these rent tribunals has been very satisfactory. There have been 57,000 applications made to the rent tribunals since they have been established, and only 200 complaints of varying kinds have been received. I think experience has shown that it is far better to leave the tribunals to establish what they consider to be a fair rent in the light of the facts presented to them.
    Mr. Hay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a case which was heard on 29th March the Lord Chief Justice himself recommended that this particular matter should be dealt with?
    Mr. Bevan: This is the House of Commons.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Physiotherapists
    Mr. H. A. Priceasked the Minister of Health what is the present scale of salaries applicable to chartered physiotherapists within the National Health Service.
    Mr. Bevan: I am sending the hon. Member full details.

    Chemists, Salford
    Mr. Hardyasked the Minister of Health whether he has considered a request from the Salford Health Executive Council for permission to establish an all-night chemist service for patients who are attended by their doctor late in the evenings when chemists are closed; and what are his intentions in regard to this matter.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir. I am unable to approve this as a charge on Exchequer funds. The appropriate regulations already provide for the supply of drugs in an emergency.

  MINISTRIES (ECONOMY)
  Sir T. Mooreasked the Prime Minister, in view of the need to effect savings in national expenditure, what consideration he has given to the possibility of reducing the number of

  1127
  Ministries, especially those such as the Ministry of Supply, which were established purely or principally for the purposes of facilitating the war effort.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): All aspects of the machinery of Government, including not only the division of functions between Departments but also the organisation of the Departments themselves, are constantly under review with the general object of securing the maximum of efficiency at minimum cost. While changes in the redistribution of functions between Departments will clearly be necessary from time to time, I am not satisfied that any of the Departments, created when the country was being organised for war and which are still in being, could be abolished without loss of efficiency.
  Sir T. Moore: When will the right hon. Gentleman and the Government awaken to the facts about the gravity of our present economic situation, and, indeed, to the facts of life generally? Do they not realise that they must and could save in a big way by getting rid of redundant Ministries and their Ministers and the hordes of highly paid staffs?
  Mr. Speaker: That question is unreasonably long.
  Sir T. Moore: Could I divide it into two, Sir?

  UNOFFICIAL STRIKES
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. MARPLES.
  46. To ask the Prime Minister whether he will set up a Royal Commission to investigate the question of unofficial stocks.
  Mr. Marples: In putting this Question, Mr. Speaker, may I draw your attention to the fact that the concluding words should be " unofficial strikes "?
  The Prime Minister: I gathered that that correction was necessary. The reply is, " No, Sir."
  Mr. Marples: Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied with the
  1128
  present position? If he is not satisfied. what action, if any, does he propose to take?
  The Prime Minister: The answer means that I do not consider the remedy, suggested by the hon. Member, that a Royal Commission would be appropriate in this case.

  AIR POLLUTION, STOKE-ON-TRENT
  Dr. Barnett Strossasked the Lord President of the Council what are the figures for the carbon content of the atmosphere in Stoke-on-Trent as compared with Nottingham; and what are the figures for skyshine in the two cities.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): No comparative figures are available as, although the city of Stoke-on-Trent sends measurements of smoke and deposited matter, including carbonaceous matter, to D.S.I.R., no equivalent measurements are reported from Nottingham. I understand, however, that the Nottingham Corporation is shortly to commence observations. No measurements of daylight have been reported from either Stoke or Nottingham.
  Dr. Stross: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the number of days on which what we term haze is noted is 40 times as high in a city like Stoke-on-Trent as compared with some other cities of similar size? Has he considered whether the powers that local authorities now have invested in them are sufficient to solve this type of problem, where the atmosphere is grossly polluted?
  Mr. Morrison: I am very sorry to hear of this state of affairs in Stoke. I hope they will improve. There is a possible improvement in the law under consideration, but if my hon. Friend wishes to pursue that matter I think that a Question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
  Mr. Pickthom: May I ask whether the superior clarity and brightness over Nottingham are not attributable to the illumination of a political kind which has recently dawned and is visibly increasing all round the eastern environs of the city

  FORESTRY

    Timber Felling
    Mr. Gerald Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps the Forestry Commission are taking to encourage timber merchants to do the felling, extraction and conversion of standing timber.
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 4th April to the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland.
    Mr. G. Williams: Is the Minister aware that at present the merchants are under-employed, and, on the other hand, the Commission's staffs are finding it very difficult to cope with the planting, and will soon have difficulty with the thinning? Is he further aware that he will be well advised to carry out the advice of the Forestry Commission?
    Mr. T. Williams: I think it will be of some interest to the hon. Member to learn that 2,102 acres were dealt with by private afforestration fellers last year.

    Commission (Appointment)
    Mr. G. Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture when an experienced timber merchant will be appointed to the Forestry Commission.
    Mr. T. Williams: I would again refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 4th April to the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland.

    Private Woodlands
    Mr. M. Philips Priceasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in order to encourage the dedication of private woodlands, he will consider allowing maintenance and planting grants to be made as from the date on which the owner originally stated his readiness to dedicate.
    Mr. T. Williams: No, Sir. The mere expression of readiness to dedicate cannot be held to entitle an owner to grants under the dedication covenant.
    Mr. Philips Price: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that very great delay is often due to clerical causes over which the owner has no control?
    Mr. Williams: I am not too sure about that, but in any case it is doubtful whether we could make a grant merely because the man said he might dedicate at some future date.

  AGRICULTURE

    Aureomycin (Supplies)
    Mr. De la Bereasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will take steps to test the claims made by leading industrial chemists that a small quantity of the new drug aureomycin, when mixed with a ton of animal feed, produces a 50 per cent. speed up in the growth of farm stock, and, so far as is warranted, make supplies available to livestock rearers throughout the country.
    Mr. T. Williams: The hon. Member no doubt has in mind the addition of vitamin B12, in residues of aureomycin and streptomycin, to animal diets deficient in animal protein. Such deficient diets lead to a retarded growth rate in non-ruminant animals, and the addition of the vitamin in this way appears to enable the growth rate to return to that normally obtained from feedingstuffs containing animal protein. This matter is already under investigation, more particularly at the National Institute for Research in Dairying. The results will be made known as soon as they prove of value to the agricultural community.

    Profits
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Minister of Agriculture how the profitability of the agricultural industry is arrived at; what differences there are between the figures for separate counties or groups of counties where conditions are similar; and whether these differences were taken into consideration in the February price review.
    Mr. T. Williams: The main evidence on the profitability of agriculture comes from farm accounts collected and analysed by University Departments of Agricultural Economics, and summarised by the Agricultural Departments. These accounts, which are not classified by

    1131
    counties but by types of farming, are taken into consideration at the February price review.

    Land Service
    Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Agriculture what changes are now contemplated in the responsibility of the Agricultural Land Service for drainage and water supplies.
    Mr. T. Williams: As a matter of Departmental convenience, it was recently decided that work in the counties in connection with grant-aided schemes of field drainage and water supply should come under the general direction of the assistant county agricultural officer (executive). No change is contemplated in the responsibilities of the Agricultural Land Service for giving advice on field drainage and water supplies so far as these affect estate management.
    Mr. Vane: Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that the Land Service has full responsibility for farm water supplies and field drainage, or is it only question of giving advice?
    Mr. Williams: The county agricultural officer now becomes the person responsible for the kind of drainage referred to by the hon. Member and the estate agent member of the county executive committee is no longer responsible for that service.
    Mr. Vane: Does that reply mean that the right hon. Gentleman has divided the responsibility and now has two people for the job instead of one?
    Mr. Williams: No. We have done exactly the opposite; we have contracted it to one person.

    Rabbit Keepers
    Mr. H. L. D'A. Hopkinsonasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in considering the question of the removal of Defence Regulation 62B, he will have regard to the interests of the domestic rabbit-keepers who, through their rabbit clubs, are making a useful contribution to the food supplies of this country.
    Mr. T. Williams: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Is the Minister aware that many thousands of people belonging
    1132
    to these clubs, and mostly living in big towns, developed this business during the war as result of appeals from the Minister of Food and that if this regulation is not replaced they will run a risk of losing not only the results of many years' work but also a hobby which they value very much?
    Mr. Williams: That is why my answer was, " Yes, Sir."

    Oil (Cost)
    Mr. Arbuthnotasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the hardship which the rise in the cost of oil will cause farmers using oil-fired grass driers and what steps he proposes tc mitigate the position.
    Mr. T. Williams: I am advised that the fuel consumed by oil-fired grass driers is not subject to the increase in the Customs and Excise duty on hydrocarbon oils announced in the Budget Statement.
    Mr. Arbuthnot: Does the Minister realise that that reply will give great relief to a large number of farmers throughout the country?
    Mr. Williams: All my replies do.

    Sheep Worrying, Lincolnshire
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware of the damage being done to sheep in North Lincolnshire by stray dogs; and what steps he is taking to help farmers in this matter.
    Mr. T. Williams: I am aware that dogs are responsible for causing damage to sheep in some parts of the country. Discussions on this subject generally have been taking place with the National Farmers' Union. They have not yet been completed, but I must confess that I feel doubtful whether an effective and practicable remedy can be devised.
    Mr. Osborne: Is the Minister aware that because of this there are farmers who are giving up sheep breeding? Something should be done to help them.
    Mr. Williams: It is discouraging to farmers when dogs ravage their sheep and land, and if any practicable solution could be found I should be very happy indeed.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is strong feeling on this subject among farmers in Surrey as well as among those in Lincolnshire?

    Strawberries (Import)
    Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennettasked the Minister of Agriculture what arrangements have been made for the importation of strawberries this coming summer; and how far these arrangements have been made with the agreement of the strawberry growers in the south of Hampshire.
    Mr. T. Williams: I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the Press announcement of 12th February, 1950, about imports of fresh fruits and vegetables, from which he will see that if home supplies are sufficient, it is proposed to suspend from 1st June to 31st July, inclusive, the present open general licence for the importation of strawberries, and to limit imports during this period to a total of 2,500 tons. The arrangements were discussed with the National Farmers' Union but not with growers in particular areas.
    Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett: Is the Minister aware that growers have been in a state of great suspense concerning their fate? Will he indicate the results of this document to the Growers' Federation?
    Mr. Williams: The Growers' Federation have already been made aware of it.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the housewives of this country are tired of high prices and the protection of home growers? Will my right hon. Friend in the future protect housewives and see that they get plentiful supplies of soft fruit at cheap prices?

    Feedingstuffs (Subsidy)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Agriculture how much of the £36,000,000 cut in feedingstuffs subsidy is being paid by the consumer in higher prices; and how much must come from farming profits.
    Mr. T. Williams: There is no close connection between the recently announced increase in farmers' prices on the one hand and consumers' prices on the other. As my right hon. Friend the
    1134
    Minister of Food indicated on 5th April changes in consumers' prices are the outcome of many different factors, including variations in the cost of home-grown and imported food and in the volume of supplies. In answer to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch) on 20th April.
    Mr. Osborne: Would not the Minister admit that, whatever sum has to be paid by the consumer, it falsifies the Chancellor of the Exchequer's claim that only bread would go up in price as the result of devaluation'?
    Mr. Williams: I do not think my right hon. and learned Friend ever made such a statement.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Does not the right hon. Gentleman possess a wireless set?

    Guaranteed Prices
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture if, in order to remove misconceptions recently aroused in the public mind, he will issue a White Paper setting out the factors that determine the prices guaranteed to British farmers.
    Mr. T. Williams: The prices guaranteed to agricultural producers are determined in the light of the conclusions reached from reviews of the economic condition and prospects of the industry which are held in accordance with Section 2 of the Agriculture Act, 1947. All relevant factors are taken into account in the course of these reviews and in the subsequent determination of prices, but the importance attached to different factors may vary from one review to another and I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by the issue of a White Paper.
    Mr. Hurd: As these misconceptions persist and as farmers have nothing to hide —nor, presumably have the Government— would it not be wise to have the facts set out plainly in black and white?
    Mr. Williams: I doubt whether it would be possible to provide the clarity which the hon. Member desires.
    Major Sir Thomas Dugdale: Will the Minister think about this again? We

    1135
    keep having misunderstandings on this point. I would commend the Minister to read the speech which his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made in the House on Monday. It completely confuses the issue on this problem.
    Mr. Williams: There may have been confusion, but I am perfectly certain that it does not rest with the farming community or with those who represent the Government conduct these reviews.
    Sir T. Dugdale: I entirely agree. That is why we want a White Paper giving the facts.

    Coast Erosion
    Mr. G. Cooperasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the estimated average annual acreage lost by coast erosion throughout Great Britain; what is the total area of land at the present moment under reclamation; and what land has been reclaimed since 1945.
    Mr. T. Williams: I understand that no recent estimates of the acreage lost annually by coast erosion are available. About 1,000 acres are at present under reclamation in Scotland and a further 700 acres are being considered for reclamation in England. Although the total acreage reclaimed since 1945 cannot be accurately stated, at least 3,000 acres are known to have been reclaimed in this period in England and 3,500 acres in Scotland.
    Mr. Cooper: If the Minister has no recent figures how can this rather serious problem be watched? In view of the ever-diminishing area of agricultural land, would the right hon. Gentleman say what large-scale schemes exist for the reclamation of land and the prevention of coast erosion?
    Mr. Williams: Coast erosion is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, who has no figures other than those which I have given.
    Mr. Bowen: Could the Minister give us the figures relating to Wales?
    Mr. Williams: I know of no schemes of reclamation of this kind in Wales; otherwise I should have given the figures.

    Electricity Supplies
    Mr. Fortasked the Minister of Agriculture from what section of the Hill Farming Act he derives his powers to pay the guarantee when electricity is installed into certain farms; and how it is decided which farmers shall be helped in this way.
    Mr. T. Williams: Under Section 1 and the First Schedule of the Hill Farming Act, 1946, grant may be paid towards the cost of installing a supply of electricity on a hill farm, provided this work forms part of a comprehensive improvement scheme for the farm. Grant is paid only on the initial capital cost of installation; no grant is paid on guaranteed minimum annual consumption charges. Farms eligible for grant are those which consist wholly or partly of hill farming land as defined in the Act.
    Mr. Fort: Is the Minister aware that in certain parts of East Lancashire the decision as to which farms shall and which shall not receive the benefits of which he has spoken is causing a great deal of unhappiness between neighbouring farmers?
    Mr. Williams: I am not aware of that, but if the hon. Member cares to bring any case to my notice I will gladly look into it.

  HORSES (EXPORT AND SLAUGHTER)
  Mr. Sutcliffeasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is yet in a position to indicate the result of his consultations with the British Transport Commission and the Road Haulage Association on the measures to be taken following the recommendations of the Committee on the Export and Slaughter of Horses, as regards amendments to the Exportation and Transit of Horses Order, 1921, and the Transit of Animals (Amendment) Order, 1931.
  Mr. T. Wiliams: No, Sir. The recommendations of the Committee have been embodied in a draft Order which has been sent to the Railway Executive and the Road Haulage Association for their observations. I am awaiting replies from those bodies.

  MINE RESCUE SQUADS (INCOME TAX)
  Mr. Errollasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how awards for gallantry to volunteer and paid mine rescue squads, respectively, are treated for Income Tax purposes under his regulations.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): I am not aware of any such awards.
  Mr. Erroll: If such awards are made how will they be treated for tax purposes?
  Mr. Jay: That is a hypothetical question.

  JORDAN AND ISRAEL (GOVERNMENT DECISION)
  Mr. De Chair(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of our military commitments to defend the frontiers of the Kingdom of Jordan, whether His Majesty's Government were consulted by our ally, King Abdullah of Jordan, before he annexed the Arab-held parts of Palestine and whether he will make a statement.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Younger): His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have been officially informed by the Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan of the union of the Kingdom of Jordan and of that part of Palestine under Jordan occupation and control. The Jordan Government, in this communication, have stated that an Act providing for this union was unanimously adopted on 24th April by the Jordan Assembly, which is composed of representatives of both these territories, and received the Royal Assent on the same day. His Majesty's Government have decided to accord formal recognition to this union. They take this opportunity of declaring that they regard the provisions of the Anglo-Jordan Treaty of Alliance of 1948 as applicable to all the territory included in the union.
  This action is subject to explanation on two points. The first of these points relates to the frontier between this territory and Israel. This frontier has not yet been finally determined. The existing boundary is the line laid down in the Armistice Agreement signed between
  1138
  Israel and Jordan on 3rd April, 1949, and is subject to any modification which may be agreed upon by the two States under the terms of that Agreement, or of any final settlement which may replace it. Until, therefore, the frontier between Israel and Jordan is determined by a final settlement between them His Majesty's Government regard the territory to which the Anglo-Jordan Treaty is applicable as being bounded by the Armistice Line, or any modification of it which may be agreed upon by the two parties.
  The second point relates to Jerusalem. The part of Palestine which is now united to the Kingdom of Jordan includes a portion of the area defined in the Resolution on the internationalisation of Jerusalem adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 9th December, 1949. His Majesty's Government wish to state that, pending a final determination of the status of this area, they are unable to recognise Jordan sovereignty over any part of it. They do, however, recognise that Jordan exercises de facto authority in the part occupied by her. They consider, therefore, that the Anglo-Jordan Treaty applies to this part, unless or until the United Nations shall have established effective authority there. His Majesty's Government's obligations under the Treaty are, of course, subject always to their overriding obligations under the United Nations Charter.
  His Majesty's Government wish to add that they have no intention of requesting the establishment of military bases in peace time within the area of Palestine now united to the Kingdom of Jordan.
  His Majesty's Government have also decided to accord de jur e recognition to the State of Israel, subject to explanations on two points corresponding to those described above in regard to the case of Jordan. These points are as follows. First, that His Majesty's Government are unable to recognise the sovereignty of Israel over that part of Jerusalem which she occupies, though, pending a final determination of the status of the area, they recognise that Israel exercises de facto authority in it. Secondly, that His Majesty's Government cannot regard the present boundaries between Israel, and Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon as constituting the definitive frontiers of Israel, as these boundaries were laid

  1139
  down in the Armistice Agreements concluded severally between Israel and each of these States, and are subject to any modifications which may be agreed upon under the terms of those Agreements, or of any final settlements which may replace them.
  In announcing these two acts of recognition, His Majesty's Government wish to reaffirm their conviction that the problem of Palestine is capable of solution by peaceful means, given good will and understanding on the part of all the parties concerned. It is their earnest hope that the steps they have now taken will help to create stability in the areas concerned, and will, therefore, make a contribution towards the peace of the Middle East as a whole.
  Mr. Churchill: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that Dr. Weizmann and King Abdullah have both, over the vicissitudes of 20 or 30 years, shown themselves always staunch friends to this country, and will he avail himself to the full of the possibilities of bringing these two eminent men into the closest harmonious contact? Am I right in assuming that that is the general path upon which the Government are embarked and which is expressed in the statement to which we have just listened?
  Mr. Younger: Yes, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman is quite correct, and I am glad to associate myself with the remarks he made about His Majesty King Abdullah and Dr. Weizmann.
  Mr. De Chair: May I thank the hon. Gentleman for his very full and interesting reply, and ask if he would consider offering the services of the Government to call a conference of all the Middle East countries involved in an attempt to try to get a workable settlement of outstanding problems which he has mentioned, such as the future of Jerusalem and the closing of the canal and the pipe line, as no two of these Middle East countries seem to be agreed; and thereby make a positive contribution, as he has suggested, to the solidarity of the area, which is essential to resisting the spread of Communism in the Middle East?
  Mr. Younger: We hope the action we are announcing today will help towards
  1140
  reaching agreement over some of the many problems in the Middle East, but I do not think I can commit myself to the view that a conference at the present moment is necessarily the best way of settling the outstanding difficulties we know to exist.
  Mr. Churchill: In view of the statement which has been made, will the hon. Gentleman and the Government reconsider the decision to give or sell 110 jet aircraft to the Egyptian Government?
  Mr. Younger: I think the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the whole question of the supply of arms in the Middle East is one which is under constant consideration. I do not think I have got anything to add in that connection to the statement I have just made.
  Mr. Churchill: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will bring it to the notice of the Prime Minister, who may possibly have heard the question? It is a very important one. Might he not discuss with the Egyptian Government the stoppage of tankers passing through the Canal, which are deeply needed to get the Haifa refinery into working order?
  Mr. Younger: These are, of course, among the more important of the numerous difficulties to which I have referred, and which are still outstanding, and which are under consideration.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: While congratulating my hon. Friend on the positive and constructive step forward in the announcement he has made, may I ask if he does not consider that the whole question of the supply of arms under our treaties with the surrounding Arab States might be reconsidered, and, indeed, suspended, until, at any rate, such time as they are prepared to negotiate treaties of peace with the State of Israel, to which we have now afforded de jure recognition?
  Mr. Younger: I take note of my hon. Friend's views, but I do not think that any comment from me is called for in connection with the statement.
  Earl Winterton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of us who have had many intimate connections with these parts in the past, welcome his announcement, and are entirely in agreement with the point, which is an entirely non-party

  1141
  one, put by the Leader of the Opposition, and believe that the State of Israel and the State of Jordan are by far the most stable States in the Middle East, and that first things should come first, and that, a treaty between them should be the object of His Majesty's Government as far as His Majesty's Government are able to influence it?
  Major Legge-Bourke: Speaking strictly for myself, may I say to the hon. Gentleman that I consider the de jure recognition of Israel to be the most hideous betrayal of all those men who fought in Palestine in the past?
  Earl Winterton: With regard to my question, does the hon. Gentleman agree that that should be the object of His Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Younger: Of course His Majesty's Government wish to see an agreement between Israel and all the neighbouring States.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I hope that we may finish with this now without sounding any more discordant notes.

  STRIKE, LONDON DOCKS
  Mr. Eden(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any further statement to make on the strike position in the London Docks.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): There is little material change to report. The number of men not working this morning was 14,393.
  Mr. Martin Lindsay: Is the right hon. Gentleman now prepared to state whether his advice is that it is a legal or an illegal strike?
  Mr. Isaacs: I want to be quite frank with the House, and I ask them to forgive me if I say that it would not be wise for me to answer that question at this moment.
  Mr. Henry Strauss: Will the right hon. Gentleman now answer the question that he was unable to answer on Tuesday? Has the expulsion of the three men from the union ended their employment at the docks?
  Mr. Isaacs: I am sorry that I was not able to give a definite answer the other day. I have made inquiries, and expulsion from the union makes no difference at all to their right of employment. There is nothing in the scheme to prevent their re-employment.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can my right hon. Friend conceivably be right about that? Is he really saying that employment in the docks is possible nowadays for labourers who are not members of the appropriate trade union?
  Mr. Isaacs: The answer I have given is given upon proper inquiries of all parties concerned, and it is quite conceivable that I am right.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Can the Leader of the House tell us the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 1ST MAY—Supply (11th Allotted Day), Committee.
Debate on Anglo-Canadian Trade until about seven o'clock, and afterwards Debate on the problem of road haulage.
TUESDAY, 2ND MAY—Second Reading of the Highways (Provision of Cattle-Grids) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Completion of the Committee stage of the Distribution of Industry Bill; and consideration of Motions to approve the Timber (Charges) (No. 11) Order, and the draft Police Pensions Regulations and similar Regulations for Scotland.
WEDNESDAY, 3RD MAY—Second Reading of the High Court and County Courts Judges Bill [Lords], and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Committee stage of the Coal-Mining (Subsidence) Money Resolution, and consideration of Motion to approve the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Amendment Regulations.
THURSDAY, 4TH MAY—Supply (12th Allotted Day), Committee.
Debate on the Ministry of Education Estimate.
FRIDAY, 5TH MAY—Consideration of Private Members' Motions.
Earl Winterton: Would the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to whether it is possible to have a discussion on a subject which evokes no party controversy, but which is one of great poignancy and urgency, and that is the position of refugees in Europe? It is a question in which several hon. Members on both sides of the House take an interest. Will he at any rate allow the matter to be discussed through the unusual channels of a talk between himself on the one side and the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) and myself on the other?
Mr. Morrison: I am sure that if public notice were given of that meeting everybody would like to be present. I am afraid that I have not got time available. There are, of course, Supply Days coming along between now and Whitsun, and no doubt the noble Lord will consult with his right hon. Friends as to whether anything can be done.
Earl Winterton: It is a non-party matter.
Mr. Morrison: A Supply Day has not necessarily got to be a party row.
Mr. S. Silverman: While appreciating my right hon. Friend's difficulty about time, might I ask him nevertheless to bear in mind that there are still a great many refugees in Europe; that the International Refugee Organisation is about to come to an end, and that its place is to be taken by some other institution which will have no funds of any kind; and that in the light of those facts a discussion in the House of Commons would not be inappropriate?
Mr. Morrison: I understand all that, and I know that there is a problem. On the other hand, it does seem to me to be appropriate business to be dealt with in the way I have suggested. I think everybody in the House will appreciate that of all the countries in the world this country has not been backward in respect of refugees in the past.
Sir Herbert Williams: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of the Minister of Fuel and Power, concerning the Draft Electricity (Commissioners and Others) (Compensation) Regulations, 1950, will be taken?
Mr. Morrison: I am sorry, but I do not know. We will let the hon. Gentleman know.
Miss Bacon: Is my right hon. Friend aware that although since July, 1948, there have been many opportunities to discuss the National Health Service, there has been no such opportunity to discuss the National Insurance Act; and could he give any hope of a date for that in the near future?
Mr. Morrison: No, Sir; but no doubt that also will be taken note of in the appropriate quarters.
Mr. Harold Davies: Will an opportunity be afforded to the House to have a Debate on the Far East before the Whitsun Recess?
Mr. Morrison: That matter is under discussion through the usual channels.

RAILWAY FREIGHT CHARGES (INCREASE)
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): I am now able to announce the decision on the British Transport Commission's application for authority to make certain increases in charges. I referred the matter for advice to the Permanent Members of the Transport Tribunal acting as a consultative committee, and their advice was that I should authorise the Commission to make the additional charges. I attach the greatest importance to advice from such an experienced body, given after a full public inquiry. Nevertheless, in view of the great importance of the matter. I have considered, with my colleagues, not only the Committee's advice but also wider aspects which could not be covered in a public inquiry.
The decision now reached is that I shall make Regulations under Section 82 of the Transport Act authorising the Commission to make the increases recommended by the Committee. The increases will come into operation on Monday, 15th May. I am circulating with the OFFICIAL REPORT a fuller statement of some of the facts which have led to my decision but the position may be outlined as follows.
The amount involved in the freight increases is £27 million, which is one-half

1145
of 1 per cent. of the output of manufactures. Tentative estimates show that the resulting increases in certain basic prices range from about 1 to 21 per cent. The effect on prices of food and clothing will not be significant. After the increase, railway freights over-all will stand about 80 per cent. above the 1938 figure, an increase substantially lower than the increases in other basic prices.
The railways' costs, on the other hand, are about 125 per cent. above pre-war. Staff costs are nearly two-thirds of the total, and wages have doubled. Coal is costing the railways nearly three times pre-war, while the increase in supplies and services ranges from 80 per cent. above pre-war for iron and steel to four-and-a-half times pre-war for timber, sleepers and crossings. The numbers of staff are 620,000 compared with 550,000 in 1938, an increase accounted for by the shorter working week, longer holidays, improved conditions, and the need to make up arrears of maintenance. In spite of some rise in costs during the last few years, over-all expenditure has been kept practically steady.
On the revenue side, while receipts from goods traffic have been steady, passenger receipts, on a comparable basis, have fallen since 1947 by £26 million, a substantial part of this being due to the falling off in Government passenger traffic. The rise in the price of transport services is, therefore, much below the increase in costs compared with pre-war. The improved efficiency which accounts for this achievement can best be seen in the increase in the number of ton-miles moved per engine hour, from 461 in 1938 to 542 in 1948.
I am satisfied, therefore, that there is no means of meeting the financial problem now facing the railways by any rapid and substantial further increases in efficiency. The economies to be achieved by integration of transport services must obviously be a gradual and long-term matter. Any attempt to meet the present situation by a subsidy payment would add to Government expenditure, which everyone is anxious to reduce.
The principle embodied in the Transport Act is that the Commission should pay its way. The expedient of a subsidy could be justified, if at all, only if there were reasonable expectation that the Commission's budget might shortly be
1146
balanced on the basis of existing charges and this, I am satisfied, is not the case. The increased level of charges now agreed upon is substantially below the general rise in prices, and no serious effect upon the cost of living is foreseen.
Mr. Eden: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will realise that a statement of this importance, together with a number of additional statements which will be available in the Vote Office, will have to be studied before the House can usefully comment on them; but I must ask the Leader of the House now, in view of the seriousness of the situation, which I am bound to say I think the statement somewhat belittles, and the seriousness of the consequences of this decision, whether an early opportunity can be given for a Debate on the subject.
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I am not sure. I think that the right hon. Gentleman had better study it. There has been a Debate on Transport recently, and I am not sure that a further Debate is essential. I have no doubt that if the Opposition have views about it, they can raise it through the usual channels, but I cannot give an undertaking.
Mr. Eden: I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman should speak in that tone. The Government have been in possession of this report from the Transport Commission since 16th February. We have repeatedly asked for the Government's views, and we have not received them. At long last, when I asked perfectly courteously for a debate, I should have thought that I was asking for something to which we were fully entitled.
Mr. Morrison: If it is a question of a debate on Supply, certainly that can be arranged with the greatest ease; it is only for the right hon. Gentleman to demand. But if it is a question of the Government providing time, I am not going to give an affirmative answer this afternoon. It can be discussed. After all, there is a Supply day on Monday, and it could be taken then.
Mr. Eden: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that he gave his answer after the Supply Days for next week had been arranged? If he wanted us to

1147
arrange a Supply Day for next week to discuss this matter it would have been courteous to tell us yesterday that the statement was to be made today.
Mr. Morrison: There is no reason for the right hon. Gentleman, who is usually very courteous, to lose his temper. From what he says anyone would think that the Government were seeking facilities for a debate. We are not; it is the Opposition. After all, this is a decision after a hearing by a judicial tribunal, and I am not going to attempt—[Interruption]. Excuse me, but I am not going to attempt to say that after the approval of a recommendation of a judicial tribunal by a Minister, Parliamentary Debate must necessarily follow. It can be discussed through the usual channels. All I can say is that I am giving no undertaking of Government time; but it can be talked about. If the Opposition wish to devote a Supply Day to this, it is within their power to do so.
Mr. Eden: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that on a matter of this kind, which is obviously of the greatest interest to industry and to the life of this country, he cannot give time for a debate except out of the Opposition's time? That is quite unreasonable.
Mr. Morrison: It is not unreasonable; it all depends on one's sense of relativity as to which there is plenty of room for difference of opinion. I do not think that on the statement of my right hon. Friend, when it is studied, there is a case for the Government giving special facilities. I am not adverse to it being discussed through the usual channels, but I cannot give an undertaking. It seems to be one of those matters not unreasonable to be discussed in committee of Supply if the Opposition wish.
Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: In view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the amount of the increase was to be £27 million in a year—if I got the figure correctly—and that the progression of loss of the Transport Commission has been £5 million, £20 million and approximately £30 million, it is therefore obvious that the £27 million will not fill the gap for this year and will do nothing to the back-log; and will he not consider even an informal inquiry, such as Sir Robert Burrows held in regard to the
1148
National Coal Board, to consider whether the statement that he made that there is no rapid and substantial economy to be made is really the last word? I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider on this vital problem whether he ought to conclude that no substantial and rapid economy can be made without further examination, if possible by some impartial source.
Mr. Barnes: I should make it clear that the statement I made does not refer to a permanent situation. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman is aware, what we are dealing with here is a period in between or until the operation of the charges scheme of the British Transport Commission. This application and the Tribunal's consideration were not for the purpose of liquidating the whole of the losses that may occur between now and the end of 1952, but to avoid their becoming so substantial that they would seriously upset the consideration of any proper charges scheme. I do not think that, after the tribunal which was established under the Transport Act and the preliminary arrangements which we made in Committee when considering that Act to use this tribunal for any interim problem that arose, any further inquiry into this matter can affect these figures or these problems. In my view it would just introduce further confusion.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Will not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the charges scheme cannot have any effect for at least five years and possibly longer, and that the tribunal were only inquiring into the limited point of whether there should be this increase to deal with this special situation? Can he not hold out any hope that there will be an inquiry into increased efficiency and economy? I ask him not to close his mind to that because it is of vital importance to everyone.
Mr. Barnes: I can assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that my mind is not closed against any steps that can be taken to increase the efficiency of the undertakings of the British Transport Commission. That is steadily going on. Indeed, investigations have been taking place, and I think that when hon. Members see some of these figures they will appreciate that already substantial steps are being taken in that direction, which will be steadily pursued. I want to

1149
emphasise that these charges, at the moment, are not to liquidate the whole of the losses but to prevent any further accumulation, and I think that they will go a very long way to avoiding that end.
Mr. Churchill: May I ask the Lord President of the Council on the question of debate in connection with this matter whether he will consider the following: We are now informed or given notice, that on 15th May a new tax of £27 million a year will be put upon the public and upon industry by raising the rates of freights on the railways—£27 million a year which is almost half the tax we voted on yesterday. Is there any reason why the House of Commons should not have an opportunity in Government time and on Government responsibility of debating so heavy an additional charge on the life and activity of the nation?
Mr. Morrison: These are commercial concerns.
Mr. Churchill: They were.
Mr. Morrison: That, if I may say so, is ridiculously partisan. They really are commercial concerns. If the railways had not been nationalised, their financial position today would have been much worse than it is. That comment of the right hon. Gentleman is typically partisan, and not exceptionally well-informed. Therefore, there is really no obligation on the Government in the course of this adjustment, that would have had to take place whether the railways were privately or publicly owned—
Mr. Churchill: It is the taxpayer's money.
Mr. Morrison: Excuse me, but it is not the taxpayer's money. The degree of ignorance about this matter is so appalling that I am almost tempted to offer to clear up the ignorance of Members opposite. I have already said that if the Opposition have suggestions to make they can be discussed through the usual channels, but I am not going to commit myself to giving Government time for a Debate. There is Supply time, and there is the further facility—do not let it be thought that we have been mean about facilities—given not only to the Opposition but to the House, and that is the promise I gave of three
1150
days for debating the conduct of the socialised industries, when this matter could be discussed. I think, therefore, that this pressure is quite unreasonable.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the Minister of Transport say whether the Regulations, embodying this decision will have to be laid on the Table, and if so when, and are they subject either to the negative or affirmative procedure?
Mr. Barnes: No, Sir. This does not require any Regulations being brought before the House. The Minister was. empowered under the Transport Act to give effect to any decisions of the Tribunal.
Mr. Churchill: Does this not constitute a very great abrogation of Parliamentary liberties and of the duty of the House of Commons to deal with burdens laid upon the public and money extracted from them? Here is the right hon. Gentleman. imposing a tax of £27 million in a year. [HON. MEMBERS: " It is not a tax." It is in all except the name a tax on the public, and the right hon. Gentleman does not even feel that the Government have the responsibility to give some opportunity for discussing it.
Mr. Morrison: I have already covered this propaganda point. What is of interest is that when private enterprise put up the price of steel, which was a matter of great significance to the whole of British industry, there was no demand on the part of the Opposition for a Debate.
Mr. Churchill: And if the steel shareholders lost their money they had no means of coming to the Government and the House of Commons to recoup themselves.
Mr. Morrison: That is typical bias.
Mr. Churchill: Everything is bias. except what the right hon. Gentleman says.
Mr. Morrison: When the steel people put up their prices that is nothing, but when the railways have to put up their charges, it suddenly becomes a tax.
Mr. Speaker: This almost reminds me of the early days of the last Parliament.
Mr. S. Silverman: Can my right hon. Friend say, in view of what the Leader of the Opposition asked just now, what

1151
opportunity the House of Commons would have had to consider increases in railway rates awarded by a tribunal before the nationalisation of the railways?
Mr. Churchill: Before that question is answered, may I ask what redress railway shareholders would have had if, owing to the misfortunes of the enterprise in which their money was invested, their dividends were reduced?
Mr. Barnes: In answer to my hon. Friend's point, the procedure in the past was that the railways had the right under the 1921 Act which was passed by a Conservative Government to apply to the Railway Rates Tribunal which had the authority to give effect to any increased charges for the purpose of enabling the railway companies to meet their obligations both in regard to expenses and interest to their shareholders. That took effect irrespective of any decision by Parliament. The Transport Tribunal is the old Railway Rates Tribunal; it merely has a different name. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman, the railway shareholders were protected by the decision of the Railway Rates Tribunal, which always took into consideration their interest. Under the Transport Act, they are now guaranteed their interest by the State. As I have pointed out, these increased charges are roughly the same amount as that which the Transport Commission has to pay to the railway shareholders for their interest.
Mr. Churchill: Was this arrangement made by a Conservative Government or by the Socialist Government?
Mr. Erroll: Has the Minister any estimate of the further loss of rail traffic which must inevitably result from these increased charges?
Mr. Barnes: Yes, Sir. We have allowed for that in the figure I gave of £27 million. We do not anticipate that there will be any considerable loss in traffic, but an allowance has been made for any loss in freights in the figure of £27 million.
Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: May I ask whether, with these increased charges, there is a hope of an increase in wages for the low paid workers in the railway service?
Mr. Barnes: That is not a matter for me to decide. The point is that if these losses were allowed to accumulate it would make that problem even more difficult to solve.
Mr. Boothby: Does the Minister, and particularly the Secretary of State for Scotland who is sitting on his left, realise that this announcement will reduce the whole of the North of Scotland to the condition of a distressed area?
Mr. Fernyhough: In view of what has been said today by the Opposition, can my right hon. Friend say why it is that at the General Election the Opposition said in " This is the Road " that they would not de-nationalise the railways?
Mr. Speaker: I do not think the Minister can answer for the Opposition.
Mr. John MacLeod: Does the Minister realise that some concession must be made in the case of the Highlands, as this is virtually a tax on the people who live in that part of Scotland? Does he further realise that it is useless for the Government to talk of any further Highland developments if they are to increase charges in this manner?
Mr. Barnes: I should like to take this opportunity of correcting an answer I gave to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). I find that the regulations are subject to the negative procedure.
Mr. H. Strauss: I have two questions to put to the right hon. Gentleman. In view of the evidence given before the Tribunal by the nationalised industries, has he made any estimate of what will be the increase in the price of coal? My second question to him is this. When he concluded his statement with the observation that no serious increase in the cost of living is foreseen, does he mean that when it takes places the Government will express surprise?
Mr. Barnes: With reference to the increased price of coal, if it is decided to impose this additional charge—which I cannot say—obviously it will vary in different parts of the country. In some parts it will be negligible; in other parts far distant from the coalfields it may be considerable, running into two, three or four shillings. However I am not able to say to what it will actually work out in practice.
Mrs. Middleton: Is it not a fact that all this bother this afternoon might have been avoided if the advice of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) had been taken at the time when he advocatcd the nationalisation of the railways in the early part of the century?
Mr. Churchill: May I assure the right hon. Gentleman that it was from no prejudice on my part—on the contrary, I had a predisposition in that direction—it was from no prejudice that I opposed the nationalisation of railways at about the most unsuitable time that the State could have embarked upon such a step.
Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Now that the Minister has informed us that the Regulations are subject to a negative resolution and can be prayed against, would he kindly inform the House when the Regulation will be laid?
Mr. Barnes: The increases will come into operation on 15th May, and so obviously there ought to be an opportunity before then.
Mr. Churchill: Let us pray.
Sir Herbert Williams: As this matter will now be the subject of a Prayer, which normally is taken at the end of Government Business, and as a large number of Members desire to speak on that Prayer, would the Leader of the House be prepared to make it a daylight Prayer and not a midnight Prayer?
Mr. Morrison: From my own observations I have always found that the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) wishes to speak on almost any Prayer that comes up in the House.
Sir H. Williams: Certainly.
Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: Will the Leader of the House agree from what has been going on, that this is a very difficult subject to deal with on the basis of Quesand answer, and probably will be equally difficult in the case of a Prayer? It does raise a matter which widely affects all walks of life throughout the country, and would he agree that whatever point has been raised so far, the Minister of Transport has always replied that he could not give an answer, because it was under consideration by the Cabinet? Does he not further agree that none of our points
1154
either on Supply days or at any time, has received an answer, and is it not reasonable to suggest that time should be given by the Government for a proper and full discussion on a matter of really great importance?
Mr. Morrison: It is entirely within the hands of the Opposition. [HON. MEMBERS: " No."] Well it is, because they have two opportunities whereby they can have a full day's Debate on it. [HON. MEMBERS: " Next week."] Next week if the Opposition like. There can be a readjustment of Business if it is wanted. It could also be debated the week after. The Opposition have two opportunities, either on a Supply day or on one of the three days for Debates on socialised industries. The Government have been forthcoming and reasonable in these matters, but if the House of Commons is going to enter into every 'individual and detail change that happens in the world of industry, and claim a right to have a day for a Debate, then we shall get into difficulties.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider negligible an advance of 3s. on coal in London and ls. 6d. throughout the country as a whole for an ordinary household consumer, and did he take this very great extra burden on housewives fully into account before he announced these increased charges?
Mr. Barnes: It is not for me to say what increase will be imposed as a result of these increased charges. I am entitled to point out, however, that for over two years the railways have carried the increased charges put on elsewhere, and they did not immediately apply any increase on their own charges. It is difficult to understand why the railways are expected to take up, in the ordinary way, all the normal increased charges that come through from industry, and when they endeavour to adjust their charge to a rising price level everybody considers he is entitled to oppose it.
Mr. Peter Roberts: On a point of Order. I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance, namely, " The proposed increases of rail charges."
Mr. Speaker: That is not the right way to do it. If the hon. Member wants to

1155
move the Adjournment of the House under Rule 9 he must bring the Motion up to the Table, so that I can read it and see if it is in Order or not. I can save the time of the House by saying that it is perfectly obvious that there has got to be a discussion on these Orders, which have to be produced in the House. I have to take into account whether there is a reasonable opportunity of discussing these Orders or not. To tell the honest truth, I do not know 'whether it is a negative Order or an affirmative Order, and if so that will be a very different question for the House.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of Order. Whether it is a negative Prayer or an affirmative Order, it seems to be clear that the Act provides for the House to give or withhold approval to the announcement my right hon. Friend has made. In these circumstances would it be in Order for the House to take any other opportunity of discussing exactly the same matter, since a discussion, which would cover the same matter, would not preclude a Member from putting down a Prayer or the necessity for the Resolution and the Rule against repetition might be a great embarrassment to him?
Mr. Speaker: That is complicated. if there were a matter before the House, I do not see how one could put down a Motion to talk about the same subject because that would rule it out. However, I should like to consider the proposition which the hon. Member has made.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Could we have an assurance that the Regulations will be printed and available to hon. Members in plenty of time before they come into operation on the 15th May?
Mr. Barnes: Yes, Sir, I think one can give that assurance.
Mr. Woodburn: On a point of Order. In view of the fact that Parliament set up machinery under which the railways can recover their outgoings by the decision of this Tribunal, and that a rejection of this Prayer would be tantamount to imposing a charge of £27 million of subsidy for the railways, would it be in order for the Opposition to reject the Prayer, which imposes a subsidy of £27 million?
Mr. Speaker: That is a matter for the Opposition and not a question of order for this House.
Mr. Spence: Can the Minister tell the House whether the rise in rail charges was simply a flat rate percentage increase over all charges, or whether there is a differential to give a lower rate for the longer haul?
Mr. Barnes: The hon. Gentleman will recollect that the organisations that presented their case before the Tribunal pressed in many instances for differential rates, and the Tribunal rejected it. Its recommendation to me was a flat increase of 16i-rds per cent., and that is the statement I have made today.
Following is the statement referred to by the Minister of Transport:
The increased powers of charge sought by the Commission were, in effect:
Railway Charges
A general increase of 16; per cent. in the present charges applicable to freight train traffic and to parcels, other merchandise and livestock by passenger train or other similar service.
Canal Charges
A general increase of 16; per cent. in, present charges.
Dock Charges

(a) Dues on coastwise vessels and cargoes—the present general increase of 25 per cent. over charges in force on 31st August, 1939, to be raised to 50 per cent.:

(b) all other rates, dues and charges—the present general increase of 75 per cent. over charges in force on that date to be raised to 100 per cent.

The Permanent Members of the Transport Tribunal, acting as a Consultative Committee, held a public enquiry, lasting 13 days, at which they considered the representations made by the Commission and no less than 28 representative bodies covering a wide field of trade and industry (including nationalised industries) and shipping.
In their Reports, the Committee summarise the evidence and arguments, give their conclusions upon the various issues, and recommend the making of Regulations authorising the increases proposed subject to a small modification

1157
in regard to dock charges. This modification is that the benefit of the lower rate of increase in respect of coastwise vessels and cargoes should apply to traffic with the Irish Republic.
Over-all railway costs are approximately 125 per cent. over pre-war. They are made up as follows:

…

…

…

Per cent.

Staff

…

…

…

62

Fuel and Power

…

…

…

13

Supplies and Services

…

…

…

21

Depreciation

…

…

…

4

Total

…

…

…

100

A large part of the costs is therefore staff. Weekly earnings have approximately doubled since 1938, as is shown from the following information given in paragraph 100 of the Commission's Report for 1948. This information relates to all railways; the increase on British Railways has been rather greater than that on the railways of London Transport.

Weekly Earnings

1938

1948

s.

d.

s.

d.

Clerical, Supervisory, etc.

93

10

155

3

Conciliation Staff

68

7

135

0

Shop and Artisan Staff

71

11

146

6

The cost to the railways of coal per ton in 1948 was 175 per cent. above prewar and there have been further increases in 1949.
The Commission's Report for 1948 also gives the following increases in the price of supplies and services:

…

Increase over pre-war Per cent.

Tyres.(per car mile)

…

155

Timber, general

…

225

Timber, sleepers and crossings

…

344

Paints and colours

…

254

Oil, lubricating

…

215

Metals, non-ferrous

…

148

Iron and steel

…

80

In spite of increase in costs over the last year or two and an improvement in passenger facilities, total expenses have kept practically steady. The figures are:

£ million

1948

…

…

…

…

311

1949 (estimate)

…

…

…

…

312

1950 (estimate)

…

…

…

…

314

Numbers of staff are about 620,000 compared with 550,000 in 1938. In justification there are four reasons:

(a) The 44-hour week.

(b) Increased holidays.

(c) Improved conditions.

(d) Arrears of maintenance, etc.,

which have to be caught up.
Changes in total passenger and freight receipts are as follows:

1 million pound

1947 (actual, adjusted to reflect present level of charges)

349

1948 (actual)

336

1949 (estimate)

324

1950 (estimate)

319

Receipts from freight train traffic are fairly steady (£183—£182—£178—£180 million) and so are receipts from goods carried by passenger train (£29 million each year). Receipts from passengers, however, show a sharp fall of £26 million in all (£133—£123—£114—£107 million).
Both fares and freights were increased in 1947, when the position was still obscured by abnormal Government (including Forces) traffic. It has been suggested that the fall in receipts since 1947 has been due to the increases then made. In fact, however, much of it appears to have been due to a falling off in Government traffic, the figures for which are:

£ million

1947 (broad estimate reflecting present level of charges)

54 (including passenger 23)

1948 (actual)

40 (including passenger 14)

1949 (estimate)

34 (including passenger 10)

1950 (estimate)

33 (including passenger 9)

The keeping of the rise in the price of transport services so much below the increase in costs, compared with pre-war, could not have been achieved except by improved efficiency.
The main statistics are:

—

Average Train

Average Wagon

Empty Wagon

Ton Miles Moved Per Engine Hour

Tons

Tons

Per cent.

1938

125

5·55

33

461

1947

159

6·42

27

516

1948

156

6·48

27

542

The principal changes in the economics of transport since 1938 are summarised in paragraph 118 of the 1948 Report of the Commission and, as far as they affect railways, are as follows:—

(a) Weekly earnings per man are about double and prices of supplies and services are more than double.

(b) Hours of work are less.

(c) There are greatly improved ratios between train mileages and hours on the one hand and ton miles or passenger miles carried on the other.

(This is expressed in the very important statistics given above of the ton miles moved per engine hour.)

(d) These improved ratios are due on the freight side to the improvement in wagon capacity and loading, to the decrease in empty wagons hauled, to the longer hauls, to the bigger trains and decreased shunting, partially offset by a slight decrease of the rate of movement.

(e)On the passenger side the improved ratios are due to a reduction in unremunerative services and to a much heavier loading of trains, offset in part by a slightly reduced rate of movement on certain services.

The process of integration of transport gives rise to many novel and difficult problems. It involves the procedure, laid down in the Act, of preparing Charges Schemes which must be approved by the Tribunal. It can only be done gradually and it must be a long-term process. It is not practicable at this stage to estimate the order of magnitude of the economies to which it will eventually lead.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [TENTH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1950-51
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  " That a further sum not exceeding £50, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services relating to the Fishing Industry in England and Wales and Scotland, for the year ending on 31st March. 1951, namely:

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1950-51

  £

  Class VI, Vote 8, Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries

  10

  Class VI, Vote 22, Fisheries, Scotland

  10

  Class VI, Vote 23, Herring Industry

  10

  Class IX, Vote 3, Ministry of Food

  10

  Class VI, Vote 1, Board of Trade

  10

  £50"

  —[Mr. Douglas Jay.)

  FISHING INDUSTRY
  4.21 p.m.
  Mr. Boothby: After the political tension and stresses of yesterday, and the last threequarters of an hour, the Committee will, I hope, turn with a measure of relief to the consideration of a problem which, although desperately urgent, demands at least a measure of objective thought and action. We do not intend to divide the Committee this evening; and I certainly do not intend, so far as I can possibly avoid it, to make a partisan speech. I am very proud to have been asked to open this Debate on the fishing industry, one of the most important we have ever had upon the subject. I also feel very keenly my responsibility, for the industry is undeniably facing a very great crisis in its history.
  Let me start my speech with an assertion. It is that, although not of comparable size, the fishing industry of this country ranks with agriculture and coal mining as a basic industry of national importance. There is no doubt about that. It is the source of an invaluable supply of food, especially in times of emergency: and it is, in addition, and

  1161
  historically, one of the foundations of British sea power. Mr. Trevelyan in his " Social History of England " tells us that the two chief nurseries of English seamen were the colliers plying between the Northern ports and London, and the fishermen of Cornwall and Devon. He says:
  " No less important was the growth in Tudor times of the herring fleets of the East Coast. Camden noted the size of Yarmouth, the out-port of Norwich, now outstripping its rival Lynn, ' for it seems incredible what a great and throng fair is here at Michaelmas, and what quantities of herring and other fish are vended '."
  The Tudors laid the foundations of the sea power upon which the British Empire was subsequently built, and under the Tudors the fishermen were favourites of government. In Elizabeth's reign laws were passed ordering the observance of " fish days "—at one time twice a week—avowedly designed to maintain our seafaring population and to revive the coast towns, and they were very strictly enforced.
  " In this and every other way "—
  writes Trevelyan—
  " Secretary Cecil strove to maintain the seafaring population and shipping of the country. He exempted seamen from military service on land; and he enforced navigation laws against foreign ships."
  Ever since that time the Royal Navy and the Mercantile Marine have recruited their men very largely from the fishermen, because the sea is in their blood.
  I do not need at this stage to stress the great part played by the fishermen in the First World War. The service they rendered was immortalised by Rudyard Kipling in what I shall always think is one of the greatest poems he ever wrote, " The Minesweepers," which I once quoted to the House and will not quote again. In the last war they were even more indispensable. I remember asking questions in the 30's as to whether the Admiralty would make a grant for the upkeep of trawlers and drifters, and the reply of the Admiralty was that such vessels would not be needed in the event of another war, and that they were sorry that no money could be made available. Those vessels were never more needed than they were between 1939 and 1945; and today, when small craft have come finally into their own, they are needed more than ever. I say that the fishing
  1162
  fleets and those who man them are essential to the security of this country at sea.
  The Committee knows well enough that this industry is divided into three main sections: the trawling industry, conducted by trawlers operating in the main from Hull, Grimsby, Fleetwood and Aberdeen; the herring industry, conducted by drifters; and the inshore fishing, conducted by smaller craft from innumerable harbours all round our coasts, using seine nets and long lines. I include in the inshore fishing the specialities such as lobsters, crabs and pilchards.
  I propose to deal with these various sections of the industry separately, and as briefly as I can; but before doing so I want shortly to refer to the difficulties that confront the fishing industry as a whole, because they have a number of difficulties in common. First of all, it is fundamentally a competitive industry, and the crisis which now faces it is fundamentally a crisis of costs. These have risen by anything from three to five times since 1939.
  I will give the Committee four examples only, although I could give many more. Before the war it cost between £20 and £25 a day to run a trawler; today it costs between £60 and £80. Before the war bunker coal for fishing vessels cost 32s. a ton in the North of Scotland; today it costs £5 2s. Before the war a drift net cost £3 12s.; today it costs £15 10s. The cost of fuel oil was raised by 381 per cent. by devaluation alone, equivalent to an increase of £4,000 per annum in the fuel bill of an average 150-foot trawler. The cost of new building is, frankly, prohibitive at the present time. On top of everything else, the Minister of Transport comes to the House this afternoon and announces a savage increase in freight charges. I shall have more to say about that in a moment; but I want now to come to the second point affecting the industry as a whole.
  At a moment when the public demand for fish is diminishing, the industry is faced in the home market with hot competition from other foodstuffs, the price of which is kept down artificially by subsidies amounting to over £400 million a year. I want to drive that home to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. There is no subsidy on fish for the consumer; but meat is subsidised, bacon is subsidised, eggs are subsidised, and all

  1163
  are in steadily increasing supply. That is what the fishing industry is up against. It is not the only thing it is up against, but it is a formidable fact too often lost sight of.
  There is a third point. The weight of foreign caught fish now coming into this country is three times the 1938 figure. It has risen from 1.6 million cwt. to 3.6 million cwt. Imports of cod alone have risen from 220,000 cwt. before the war to no less than 1,300,000 cwt. per annum. I want to ask the Government, is this really necessary? According to the Minister of Food, between September, 1949, and March of this year, 22,000 tons of white fish were sold to fish meal works and 16,700 tons of herring were reduced to oil and meal. Under these conditions it does not seem as if these tremendous foreign imports were desperately necessary for this country.
  In these circumstances it is something of a tragedy that the fishing industry should speak with so many discordant voices, and that there should be so little effective co-operation, not only between the English and Scottish fishing interests but also between the different sections of the trade in both countries. They have fought each other for too long, with disastrous results. It is high time they got together. It is also unfortunate—and I say so with a fine array of Ministers before me—that there is so little coordination between the various responsible Government Departments. Far too often in the last 10 years the Ministries of Food and Agriculture, the Scottish Office, the Treasury and the Board of Trade have simultaneously pursued conflicting policies. There has not been any effective co-ordination with regard to policy for the fishing industry between any of the too numerous Government Departments concerned with it.
  Now let me say a word about decontrol. On 15th April last the price of white fish was decontrolled. That meant, and let the Committee be seized of this fact, that subsidies equivalent to about £6 million were withdrawn from the industry. It has been suggested that we on this side of the Committee believe in oampetition, and that we wanted prices decontrolled. I say quite frankly that I am not opposed in principle to the decontrol of white fish prices, although I deplore the method.
  1164
  The wild exaggerations in the first two or three days, of the Press and particularly of the B.B.C., which were left uncorrected, did infinite damage to the fishing industry. It gave the housewives of the country what we call in Scotland a " scunner " against fish for which there was no justification; and it will take time to repair this damage. Had it not been for the reckless attitude adopted both by the Press and the B.B.C., without any sufficient authoritative correction, prices would have settled down much more quickly. I think now that ultimately they will settle down.
  Nevertheless there is here an issue of principle which I personally do not intend to shirk. While I am a believer in healthy. internal competition, I have never believed in cut-throat international competition. I am, and have been ever since I entered public life, an unrepentant believer in protection and in discrimination. And so is the party—by and large —with which I am associated. [An HON_ MEMBER: " By and large! "] Well, 99 per cent. I sat in this House during the decade between 1925 and 1935 and saw what free, multilateral trade and cutthroat international competition did to the fishing industry. And not only to the fishing industry but to the coal mining industry, to the steel industry and to agriculture. We do not want any of that again at any price.
  I think that the home producer should have the first preference in the home market; and that he should be protected at all times from assault by the products of sweated or subsidised foreign industries. I have always taken that view and I always shall; indeed, it is why I am in the Tory Party. Further, I believe that at certain times and under certain conditions subventions to home industries may be necessary. Indeed, this principle has been accepted by all parties in the House so far as agriculture is concerned. I opened my speech by saying that the fishing industry was from the national point of view of at least as great importance as agriculture. Therefore I do not rule out direct subventions to the fishing industry.
  The rise in costs which has taken place is part of the general economic problem confronting this country, and is bound to be affected by the general economic policy we pursue. As such it is outwith the scope

  1165
  of this Debate, but this much I must say: if it continues, and if other foodstuffs continue to be subsidised on the present lavish scale year after year, some form of direct financial assistance to the fishing industry will become absolutely essential if it is to survive. Otherwise it cannot stand up against the pressure. Such assistance is already given in various forms on the Continent, notably in Holland. I do not want to introduce an unduly controversial note, but when I think of the amount of money spent—I will not say squandered—on the groundnuts scheme by the Government, and the trivial proportion of that sum which would have been necessary to put the fishing industry upon a sound basis for the next ten years, it makes my blood boil. [HON. MEMBERS: " Hear, hear."] I am sorry—I have now recovered my temper.
  In any event the abolition of the flat rate transport charge for fish, topped up by the increased transport charge announced today, will have to be followed, as the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland knows jolly well,.by a comprehensive scheme for the reduction of freight charges for all merchandise on long hauls if the North of Scotland is to survive. Otherwise we are out. I am not surprised that the Minister of Transport delayed this announcement until after the Dunbarton by-election. It would just have made the difference, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. The right hon. Gentleman also knows that, if nothing is done about transport charges on long hauls, the North of Scotland will be put right out of business, not only the fishing business but of all business; and reduced, as I said in a supplementary question to the Minister just now, permanently to the status of a depressed area.
  Let me give one example to the right hon. Gentleman, the case of the canning factory of Crosse and Blackwell in my own constituency at Peterhead. These increased freight charges will just about obliterate their profit. The figures have been supplied to the right hon. Gentleman. And if they have to sustain them, I fear that that factory may be closed down, which would bring ruin to the town of Peterhead and a rapid rise in the rate of unemployment. Then we should be back just where we were in 1929 and 1930, or worse.
  1166
  If the Minister of Transport and the Government are just going to announce these increases in freight charges and leave it at that, it is an action of wanton sabotage; and I can think of nothing better calculated to win us another election quickly especially in Scotland. It is one of the wildest political actions I have ever known; and, if the Secretary of State for Scotland wants to save his skin, he had better get cracking about it. He cannot let it go as it is now, otherwise he will go down to history as " the man who ruined Scotland "; and he surely does not want to do that—at least I do not think that he does.
  I said that I would deal with the different sections of the fishing industry one by one. I do not want to delay the Committee for any undue length, but I must deploy the case. First I will say a few words about the trawling industry. The importation of foreign fish, and particularly of boxed fish, is a continuing menace. These imports should be regulated, as should also the method by which they are sold. The Committee may not know that all British fish landed has to be sold by Dutch auction at the port of landing. But foreign fish are in most cases consigned direct to inland markets and sold on a commission basis; so that very frequently the fishmonger or merchant finds on his slab in the morning a good supply of foreign fish, for which he pays on a commission basis; and he does not, or may not, want more fish. Therefore, our fish are cut out, so that under these conditions the foreigner benefits.
  The first thing to be done is to insist that foreign landed fish should be sold by Dutch auction at the port of landing on the same basis as our own fish—I think that that is absolutely vital. I had a telegram last Monday from one of the leaders of the English trawling industry. It said:
  " Foreign fish landing today 3,685 boxes Norway 4,704 Denmark markets glutted."
  Just before I came into the House today I had another telegram from the same source:
  " Danish fish due tomorrow 5,704 boxes, Norwegian 976."
  And so it goes on. At a time of crisis, when prices are breaking, I think it is iniquitous.
  The second point I want to raise in connection with the trawling industry is

  1167
  the over-fishing of the North Sea. It must be stopped. The International Convention did not accept a general reduction of the fishing fleets to a percentage of the tonnage operating in 1938, which it should have done; but it did agree to an increased minimum size of mesh and to size limits for white fish. But that is not in operation. Why is it not in operation? Mainly because Iceland has not yet ratified the Convention. Why do we not start turning the " heat " on Iceland? [Laughter.]
  I come to my third point in connection with the trawling industry: the insane policy of the Ministry of Food. I am very sorry that the Minister of Food is not here. I told him that his was the only Department I was going to attack; and, I think, no other Minister minds very much when the Ministry of Food is attacked. The insane policy of the Ministry of Food in building up large reserves of frozen white fish should be discontinued right away. Heaven knows how much trash they have imported from Iceland and elsewhere during the last two years, or how much they have spent in subsidising the freezing of this rubbish at Hull and Grimsby; but it is a continuing drag on the market, and the bulk of it is not yet sold.
  Yet the Treasury—and I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries knew about this?—last year issued £1,250,000 worth of Iceland Sterling Stock to assist Iceland to modernise her fishing fleet. The Government of Iceland undertook to pay the interest out of the proceeds of the catches of the 10 modern trawlers which they were building with our money, landed in this country in competition with our own fishermen. Imagine it! I cannot believe that the Scottish Office or the Ministry of Agriculture really knew what was going on.
  And what was the excuse which was given by the Treasury? On 28th July last the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, replying to a Question in the House, said:
  " If the Iceland fishing fleet becomes more efficient it should be able to sell its produce here at lower prices and, therefore, the livelihood of our own people will be assisted."— [OFFICIAL REPORT. 28th July, 1949; Vol. 467, c. 2658.]
  Did you ever? Just imagine that! It is shameful.
  1168
  My fourth and final point with regard to the trawling industry is this—
  Commander Pursey: Would the hon. Member allow me to intervene before he leaves this Icelandic trawler loan business? We have listened to him on this side with great interest, as we always do, but I am sure he would not like to mislead the Committee on this point. He said that the Treasury had given their approval. There has been some controversy about this point before, particularly during the General Election, and it should be made quite clear that the British Government had no hand at all in this loan. It was an entirely private loan. The hon. Member should refer to " The Times " announcement by Hambro's Bank. This information is public knowledge. I do not want to attempt to make a speech at this point, but the hon. Member must get the facts right. This was a loan floated by the Icelandic Government in the free market of the City of London by Hambro's Bank, and in the announcement the Government said that they took no responsibility for it. The Icelandic Government said that the responsibility was entirely theirs. I think, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman should clear up the point that the Treasury had no hand in the matter at all except to give approval, which is automatically given—[Interruption.] Approval is automatically given to such loans floated by private enterprise in the free market of the City of London.
  Mr. Boothby: I can answer the hon. and gallant Member in a sentence. No public issue can be made without the consent of the Treasury and the Bank of England through the Capital Issues Committee. The idea that this consent is automatically given is absolute nonsense, because I can quote to the hon. and gallant Member a thousand instances where the issue of a public loan has been turned down by the Capital Issues Committee.
  Commander Pursey rose—
  Mr. James Stuart: They have all to be approved by the Capital Issues Committee.
  Commander Pursey: At this stage it would be fair to say that I have registered

  1169
  the shot. If I am fortunate enough to be called by the Chairman, I will develop the matter and clear up the point.
  Mr. Boothby: All I will say is that the Treasury " O.K.'d " this issue, and spoke with approval of it through their representative in the House.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: The hon. Member put it up.
  Mr. Boothby: Rubbish! I did not put it up to them.
  The fourth point I want to make with regard to the trawling industry is that in our opinion a white fish marketing board should be set up. This would permit the statutory control of imports, and provide a greatly improved marketing organisation. I should like to quote what the Duncan Report of 1938 said in this connection:
  " The conclusion is irresistible that, if the Statutory Regulations under the 1933 Act were supported by a firm foundation of coordinated organisation at each stage, marketing could be greatly improved, the public given better quality and value, and the producer at the same time reasonably remunerated."
  It might well be advisable to set up in connection with this marketing scheme a compensation fund charge, under the direction of the board, on the same lines as Mr. Lloyd George's scheme for the brewery trade. That was a good scheme. It buys up obsolete public houses; and, I think, it would be a very good idea to have a fund which would buy up small obsolete trawlers, without total loss to the owners, because they would be well out of the way. What happens now in many cases is that some small fellow who is inclined to take a gamble with a few hundreds pounds buys these craft, which should not be at sea at all, and sends them out in the hope of making at least one or two catches; and they do no good to the industry as a whole.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Will the hon. Member allow me?
  Mr. Boothby: No, I am not going to be interrupted. I have a very good and important speech to make. I shall not be very much longer, but if hon. Members keep bobbing up and down I shall be kept longer.
  Mr. MacMillan: I wish to ask, in view of its import in another place, how
  1170
  piscatorial peers would have to be created if the hon. Member's suggestion were adopted?
  Mr. Boothby: In view of that interruption, it will be seen how right I was not to sit down.
  Mr. Edward Evans (Lowestoft): May I ask the attitude of the Tory Party towards the setting up of a White Fish Commission? I am interested in the hon. Member's speech and I should like to hear him elaborate that a little and to tell us what is in his mind in respect of the control of the white fish industry analogous to the Herring Industry Board, because that matter could be developed later in the Debate.
  Mr. Boothby: We passed the Bill which set up the Sea Fish Commission, which was abolished when the war came. The reason we opposed the Sea Fish Bill last year was because it prevented the establishment of a marketing board. That was why we were against it in Committee, and we got it withdrawn. We had great success; and now we want the Commission, and a Board, established again. On this side of the Committee we want a White Fish Board; but up to date the Socialist Party, who are so often behind the times, have been reluctant. " Dragging their feet," I think is the contemporary phrase.
  I now turn to the herring fishing industry, about which I have greater personal knowledge. The position in the herring industry is very grave. The scheme of loans and grants has completely broken down; and the men who have had them, particularly the ex-Service men, are seriously in debt. That is all that the scheme has done for them —to get them hopelessly into debt. The younger ones are leaving the industry. When the last war started, costs were a quarter of what they are now in the herring industry; but the Ministry of Food offered the fishermen 98s. a cran. Last week they were offered 61s. by the Herring Board for top-quality herring. I say without hesitation that this is too little. It is uneconomic, with costs at their existing level. I know that the Committee are always willing to listen to people who are actually doing the job; and I will therefore give quotations from two of our leading fishermen, Tom Buchan of Peterhead and Joe Duthie of

  1171
  Fraserburgh. Mr. Buchan says, in a letter to me:
  " The outlook for the coming season is very bleak. I have made enquiry at the various salesmen's offices and I am informed that no ship has a full crew to date. True, there are three or four drifters at present prosecuting the fishing, but they are manned by makeshift crews who normally return to their own boats when the season opens.
  You must admit that it is very galling for us to receive a top offer of 61s. per cran for first grade herring whilst the farming and filming industries are receiving additional subsidies.
  At a meeting of fishermen held on Saturday it was decided that no ships would put to sea until the crews are guaranteed a living wage. This must be, as the men are at present in the position of obtaining remunerative work ashore, and obviously will not return to sea until offered a comparative wage. Before the war when jobs were unobtainable ashore the men had no option but to go to sea, but this no longer holds good, and it is doubtful if there are sufficient men to crew half the ships. When we think of the praise that the fishermen were accorded for their part in the two world wars, I am more than surprised at the treatment they are now receiving."
  Mr. Duthie says:
  " It is my considered opinion that we are now in the worst position the herring industry has ever been in our time, and if you cannot get the Government to enable the Herring Board to pay us at least 70s. as a fiat rate for all herrings landed, then we are sunk."
  I think they are absolutely right. The prices now offered to the fishermen will not give a living wage to the deck-hands during the forthcoming season. Anything below 70s. is an outrage, with existing costs. As far as any influence I have got can be of use, I should advise the drifter men and herring fishermen of the North of Scotland to tie up their boats and go on the dole, or seek other employment, rather than go to sea for the prices they are now offered.
  For this side of the industry I have one simple sovereign remedy; it is much more power, and a little more money, for the Herring Industry Board. That is my recipe for the herring industry; and let the Ministry of Food, at all costs, keep out. They have made a terrible mess of it during the last few years. Responsibility for the marketing of herring should be transferred, definitely and finally, from the Ministry to the Board. The White Fish and Herring Industries Act, 1948, gave the Government the right to confer upon the Board adequate powers to do their job properly. Unfortunately there
  1172
  was a saving clause, Section 8, to which I objected at the time, giving Ministers the right to direct the Board on what they called " matters of national interest." It has been grossly abused by the Ministry of Food.
  I accuse the Ministry of Food of four things. I accuse them of deliberately discouraging the erection of quick-freezing plant on a commercial scale. I further accuse them of deliberately preventing the Herring Industry Board from improving the quality of kippers. The Herring Industry Board submitted a scheme to the Ministry of Food for laying down certain standards of quality of herring for kippering, with the advice of the trade; but it was turned down by the Ministry of Food, who foisted on the public the most filthy kippers, which have damaged the industry for many years to come. I accuse the Ministry of deliberately discouraging the production of oil from herring by reducing the price from £114 to £93 per ton in April last year, although there is a world shortage of edible and hardening oil. Finally, I accuse them of importing, or allowing to be imported, coarse Norwegian herring every year between January and April, which have nauseated the public, and greatly prejudiced the home demand.
  If we had had the necessary quick-freezing plant, our own men pursuing our own winter fishing on the West Coast could have supplied all our requirements for the home market with herring of the finest quality. We have only been playing with quick-freezing in the herring industry; yet it is far the most promising of all the developments which have taken place in that industry since the war. Those are serious charges which I have made against the Ministry; but I could substantiate every one of them in detail, if I had the time.
  I now turn to the question of the export trade. The Committee know that the movements of herring are strange, and in some degree inexplicable. They came to us from the Baltic in the 16th century, a mine of wealth of which the Tudors took full advantage. Since then they have been swimming, at more or less regular intervals, round our coasts. They come in dense shoals off the north-east coast of Scotland between May and July; they then disappear, and reappear in October off Smith's Knoll for five

  1173
  or six weeks; and then they go away. During these periods there are the summer and autumn fishings, heavy fishings, in which drifters from up and down the coast land herring in great quantities from grounds which are seldom more than 40 miles off-shore. The voyage lasts a single night, the drift nets being shot at dusk and hauled at dawn. When there is criticism in the public Press sometimes about herring being dumped, it is because people do not realise how seasonal is this trade, and what a fantastic industry it is in many ways. It necessarily depends a great deal on exports. Before the 1914-18 war Russia alone took over £1 million worth of cured herring from us; but today the continental markets are beginning to close. The sellers' market is going, the buyers' market has begun, and that is serious.
  I wish to put forward one or two suggestions in regard to the export trade—

  ROYAL ASSENT
  5.0 p.m.
  Whereupon, The YEOMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD being come with a Message, The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
  Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
  Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
  The House went; and, having returned—
  Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

  1. Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Act, 1950.

  2. Army and Air Force (Annual) Act, 1950.

  3.Dundee Corporation (Administration and General Powers) Order Confirmation Act, 1950.

  SUPPLY
  Again considered in Committee.
  [Colonel Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Question again proposed,
  " That a further sum not exceeding £50, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services relating to the Fishing Industry in England and Wales and Scotland, for the year ending on 31st March, 1951."

  FISHING INDUSTRY
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. Boothby: When we were interrupted, I had reached the penultimate point in one of the most interesting phases of my speech. I was making some suggestions with regard to the export trade in herring. The suggestions I wish to make are first that herring cured in brine should be incorporated in as many trade agreements as possible. I am glad to see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is in his place, because this really affects his Department. I want also to say that a definite sum should be specified. It is no use in these trade agreements putting herring among the miscellaneous goods at the finish which may or may not be bought. That is of little value. In future the Board of Trade ought to see that herring as such are definitely specified in the agreements we make, and which it is necessary to make between ourselves and countries east of the Iron Curtain.
  I suggest further that they should be British-caught herring, unless these are unobtainable. I am informed by the chairman of the Associated Herring Merchants that 9,000 barrels, to the value of £60,000, which were exported to Poland under the Anglo-Polish Agreement were in fact Dutch-caught, cured in Holland, brought over to Yarmouth, and re-exported as British herring from Yarmouth. I am assured that that is true; and I think it is a point which the President of the Board of Trade ought to look into very carefully.
  The Board of Trade should also make some effort to come to an agreement about markets and prices with the Dutch, who are our main competitors. At the present moment we are indulging in that

  1175
  ruthless international competition which I deprecated earlier on in my speech. In the long run I do not think that it will do either ourselves or the Dutch any good. We could come to quite a good agreement with them about markets and prices. There are large enough markets for both of us to give a remunerative price to our fishermen, and so I think that an approach should be made to the Dutch Government in this connection. I hope also that the Board of Trade will make some representations to the French Government, because they are definitely discriminating against our cured herring, both in metropolitan France and in their colonial territories. After all, we do take their sardines, and quite a lot of wine as well. I think they really ought to take some of our herring in exchange.
  To the Treasury I would suggest that the capital cost of fishing vessels remaining after charging the initial allowance should be allowed to be written off against profits for Income Tax purposes over a period of five years by equal instalments; and that the duty levied on imported boxboards and barrel staves should be refunded when the herring are exported. The Dutch do this; and when they are reexported surely the duty upon the import of these boxboards and barrel staves should he refunded. That would be a help, and would certainly not be a great financial strain on the Treasury. It would certainly help our export trade
  The question of the inshore fishing I propose to leave to others to deal with. The inshore fishermen are better placed than are the trawlers or the herring drifters, because they catch quality fish in the main; and I am sure that, after this furore, which has been so greatly and unnecessarily aggravated by the Press and the B.B.C. is over, they will get better prices for good quality fish as a result of de-control. Like the drifters, the boats of the inshore fishermen are generally fishermen-owned. Their immediate trouble is the high cost of gear, and the high cost of transport. Not only is the cost of nets and rope steadily mounting—it goes on, it does not stop—but the quality is often very bad. The quality of the nets is bad; and the sisal rope, which is much more expensive than manilla rope, is nothing like so good for fishing.
  1176
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade knows of this problem, and has been very sympathetic about it. I think he is examining it at the present time; and I would like to pay tribute to the interest he has shown in the whole matter of the quality and price of gear, especially for the fishermen-owned boats round our coasts. It may require some rather drastic action to put this right, and to see that the fishermen get the best-quality nets and rope obtainable at reasonable prices. After all, what can these fishermen do? They can only go to the local ships chandler at the local harbour. They have nothing like the power of the great trawling companies when it comes to purchasing gear. So it may require very direct intervention on the part of a Government Department, or some form of centralised purchase and sale—I would not run away from that—to ensure that they get the best-quality stuff that can be bought at the best possible prices.
  I feel that the little man is at a disadvantage, because he has to go to the local chandler and buy what he can get. He has no financial support behind him, no real capital. The Board of Trade ought to make a real, thorough-going investigation into the question of the quality and price of gear, and not be scared of any action which they may subsequently find it necessary to take. I gather from the hon. Gentleman that he is doing it, indeed I know he is doing it, and I pay my tribute to the sympathy he has already shown. I hope he will pursue his activities in this connection.
  I apologise to the Committee for the longest speech I have ever made in this House; but it was a grand chance and I had to deploy the case. I have at least tried to be constructive. There have been one or two moments when I felt very angry with the Government, but who can help feeling angry with this Government from time to time? I have tried to curb my anger to the maximum extent possible. I had hoped that after the war things would be all right with the fishing industry; and it is a grief for me to see it once again struggling for survival, because that is what is happening today. I say that we cannot allow the fishing industry in this country to collapse on the grounds of security

  1177
  alone. It must be saved by energetic and, if necessary, drastic action agreed upon by all political parties, while there is still time to do it.
  5.18 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. McNeil): I wish to say on behalf of my right hon. Friend and myself that we are very grateful to the Opposition for providing an opportunity to discuss this subject, which is of great interest and complexity. I should be much less than generous if I did not thank the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) for his stimulating speech. I am very crateful for some of the constructive suggestions he has made and would say at once that they will be most carefully considered.
  I cannot, however, refrain from indicating that there are certain contradictions in his arguments and in his attitude. When I was in another office I was frequently chastised, delicately and skilfully, by the hon. Gentleman because I was not as good a European as he assumed that he was. When the hon. Gentleman and other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen went to Strasbourg this pitiful Government were held up as villains and people who were afraid of a united Europe, in which we were to take the leadership. The hon. Gentleman comes here today to display his capacity for leadership in unifying Europe. What does he say? He says, " Turn the heat on Iceland."
  Mr. Boothby: Hear, hear.
  Mr. McNeil: That is a good start.
  Mr. Boothby: Well, it is.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: What about the Fishery Convention?
  Mr. McNeil: I will deal with the Fishery Convention, but I should like to look at the broad substance of the hon. Gentleman's argument. I should like to know how he squares up the quite understandable attitude he adopts today with the pose he adopts at Strasbourg where he struts and speaks and generalises. It is not only, " Turn the heat on Iceland." It is not only the Convention. We have also got to shut out foreign landings altogether.
  Mr. Boothby: The right hon. Gentleman has challenged me. I only say this:
  1178
  The essence of European co-operation is co-operation. The reason why I want to turn the heat on Iceland is that they will not co-operate. If they had been willing to co-operate, they would have signed the North Sea Convention. They will not do it. I am prepared to stand up to any European Power that will not co-operate.
  Mr. McNeil: So the hon. Gentleman has no objection to any imports other than those from Iceland.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: There is the Fishery Convention.
  Mr. McNeil: I have now got the hon. Gentleman correctly. He has no objection to the import of fish—
  Mr. Boothby: I have the strongest objection to the import of Norwegian herring.
  Mr. McNeil: No Icelandic cod; no Norwegian herring?
  Mr. Boothby: That is right.
  Mr. McNeil: I thought, too, that I heard the hon. Gentleman make some objection to boxed fish. Perhaps 1 was wrong about it. Has he no objection at all to boxed fish coming in?
  Mr. Boothby: My objection about boxed fish was that it should be sold under the same conditions as the fish landed by our own trawlers.
  Mr. McNeil: This is much better. So the hon. Gentleman has no objection to boxed fish if it is sold in the same competitive fashion as British boxed fish at our East Coast markets?
  Mr. Boothby: I do not know why I should be under this cross-examination. If the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to read my speech, he would see that what I said was that I thought the whole of the imports of fish to this country should be properly regulated and controlled, and I stand by that.
  Mr. McNeil: That is a much better statement. It is one which, I think, might be defended at Strasbourg.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Oh!
  Mr. McNeil: I must say to the right hon. Gentleman that his hon. Friend offered at least two exclusions to that statement. One is the Icelandic cod—
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Not a bit. Many people interrupted my hon. Friend at great length. I had something to do with the North Sea Convention. I signed the North Sea Convention—the only one that worked—for a mesh required to prevent the over-fishing of the North Sea. I say that that was a good and necessary thing to do, and the right hon. Gentleman's former Department, the Foreign Office, is grossly in default for not having secured a similar Convention in the years after the war.
  Mr. BoothbyWhat is the Secretary of State going to do about it?
  Mr. McNeil: Perhaps I shall be better able to do something if I understand the position of the hon. Gentleman. Let me agree willingly about the Convention, but the Convention had nothing to do with the catching of cod, and the essence of the hon. Gentleman's argument is that that cod should be kept out. Of course, I do not want to try to pretend that it is not a problem. We have international obligations, including our membership of O.E.E.C. Iceland is a member of O.E.E.C., and Iceland is inside the sterling area. Therefore, as the hon. Gentleman very well knows, Iceland could not have been kept out of the London money market.
  If we are now to turn round and say that effective members of the sterling area, people with whom we co-operate in O.E.E.C., are not to have such facilities as our markets can afford, for agreed objectives, it will be very difficult to redefine our attitude inside the sterling area. Again and again, the hon. Gentleman has shown us just how keenly he appreciates that point. However, I confess that foreign landings are important and that they have a relationship to our existing situation; but they will not, alone, explain it.
  The foreign landings are substantial, but my recollection is—and I have the exact figures—that last year they were just one-half of the foreign landings for the previous year. The reduction was due to a reduction in price, and there can be no doubt that a much more important factor in depressing the price and leading up to the present situation is the fact that the improvement in our own distant-water trawler fleets has meant that there has been a glut of this coarse type of fish upon the market.
  1180
  There were some other points raised by the hon. Gentleman in the more pro. vocative parts of his speech which should not be allowed to go by default. Incidentally, I think that he was strangely wrong in putting the subsidy at £6 million per annum. I think it was between £2,500,000 and £3 million per annum. But that is not the only subsidy—the only subvention—available to the industry at present. I am not necessarily arguing that enough is available, but reference should have been made to the other types of subvention which are available to the industry. Truthfully, I am puzzled when I hear this spirited defence of competition and private enterprise and then, when the hon. Gentleman's argument unravels itself, it appears that it is to be competition against selected elements. Then it appears, further, that it is to be competition providing that public moneys are " sub-vented," in some undisclosed fashion, to the industry.
  It is not a very gallant and unqualified defence of the General Election programme which the Opposition offer, although I should want to admit, in honesty, whether it embarrasses the hon. Gentleman or not, that from time to time he has displayed surprising deviations from the Opposition Front Bench. It is a curious kind of private enterprise and one in which I hope the hon. Gentleman will educate his own colleagues from time to time.
  I thought, too, that it was scarcely justifiable to launch this ferocious attack upon the Ministry of Food. While it embellished the hon. Gentleman's argument and gave him an opportunity for some righteous indignation, it was a little wide of the mark to say that the Ministry of Food, in four instances, has deliberately impeded steps being taken that would have been to the benefit of the herring industry. I think that he was wide of the mark. I had previously looked at two of the points which the hon. Gentleman made.
  First, the proposal for the quick-freezing plant. Why was not the hon. Gentleman honest with the Committee? Why did the Ministry of Food find themselves unable to agree to this scheme? My recollection is that they could not agree to it because the project was uneconomic at the existing prices of herring, until it was

  1181
  proposed that the quick-frozen herring should be sold at a higher price. But all the experts we were able to consult—and there are some in this Committee, and I see one of them right opposite me now—told us it was impracticable, because, once the herring reached the shop, one could not tell whether it was quick frozen or freshly caught.
  Sir David Robertson: I think the right hon. Gentleman is wrong, and that my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) is correct. The actual facts are that the fishing industry was only too anxious to get the freezing plants and to buy herring from the fishermen, but was unwilling to buy them at a price which would penalise the fishermen because it was a lower price. The industry was only too willing to pay an economic price for fresh herring, but, if they froze them and stored them and then brought them out for sale in the winter, when we had no British-caught herring at all, the late Minister of Food would have compelled us to sell them, wholesale and retail, at the same price that we would have got for them in the summer time, before any expense had been incurred on them at all. In that way, they would completely hamstring the industry in regard to quick freezing.
  Mr. McNeil: I do not deny that there was an objection, but I have tried to explain the objection. The hon. Gentleman has displayed that it was a fairly complex matter, and not just a simple slogan position, as suggested by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire.
  The one other point which the hon. Gentleman made and with which I am not unfamiliar was his assertion that they had deliberately refused to impose a good kippering standard upon this country. This is a subject in which I like every other Scots Member, have for long been interested, and I cheerfully acknowledge the expertness of the hon. Gentleman on this subject. My recollection of this proposition was that it was suggested that the kippering of herring should not be permitted in April and May, because it is true that herring are in very poor condition at that time. The viewpoint of the Minister of Food was a quite understandable one, and one which I would expect exponents of free enterprise to support. The Ministry said that if the public
  1182
  wanted herring in that condition and at that time, and were willing to pay the price, why should the Ministry refuse to let them have them? It is quite a tenable argument.
  Mr. Boothby: The right hon. Gentleman is completely mistaken about that. I said that the Herring Industry Board asked permission to lay down certain standards for kippers which they regarded as essential in the industry, as I do myself. They were refused permission to do that by the Ministry of Food, and I say that that was a monstrous action by the Ministry and that the right hon. Gentleman cannot deny it.
  Mr. McNeil: Let me put it another way. The hon. Gentleman now insists upon the right of a statutory board to deny the public access to certain types of fish at certain times of the year.
  Mr. Boothby: Yes, because it is filthy fish.
  Mr. McNeil: That, at any rate, is a new proposition for the hon. Gentleman. The Committee will agree that it is a quite defensible attitude to say that we have an obligation to the consumer, and that, if they want herring to be available at that time, they should have them. The hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) reminds me that we do not deny trout to the British public if they want to pay for them, but the hon. Member for East Aberdeen, in his defence of his true Europeanism, does not want Norwegian kippers at this time either, so the public are to be denied British herring, and, in pursuance of good Europeanism, Norwegian kippers also. It is a very difficult attitude.
  Captain Duncan: The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned trout. If he will read the Trout Fishing (Scotland) Act, 1933, he will find that there is a close season.
  Mr. McNeil: Of course, there is a close season, but, with great respect, I would say that anybody can buy smoked trout and imported trout during the close season. At least, I think so, but we will perhaps look it up. I am certain that I have been guilty of minor trout offences here and there, though I had no idea that I had been indulging in another one when I have eaten smoked trout in the close season.

  1183
  I do not in the least want to suggest to the Committee that I disagree with the seriousness with which the hon. Gentleman pursued his case. I have already said that the Committee is indebted to him and to the Opposition for the general case which they have made. The hon. Gentle- man has said that this industry is of national importance, and I think that is a fitting description. In terms of food-getting, it is of great substance and proportions. Last year, it landed for us about one million tons of fish which we needed as a nation, and, of course, in Scotland, it has proportionately an even greater place in our economy.
  In the last few weeks, my right hon. Friend and myself, together with the Minister of Food, have taken part in meeting certain delegations, and in the course of these discussions the complexities of the industry were well displayed. I think I should also say that the inability of the industry to agree upon many points was also displayed. It might be easier for the Committee to follow pretty broadly the lines offered in the opening of the Debate if we follow the broad divisions of the industry—white fish and herring, and the subdivisions of the white fish section.
  Last year, the total landings from British fishings of white fish were 896,000 tons. It seems a pretty good figure, but it is only fair to the Committee to admit that, in 1949, a sizable number of large and modern trawlers came into operation, while even in the inshore fishing round our own Scottish coasts there was an addition of a few modern and economically-engined craft. The increases to which I have drawn attention, I should also admit for the benefit of Scottish hon. Members, was confined to the English side of the Border. The Scottish landings, at 158,000 tons, fell by about 10,000 tons compared with the previous year. This was not a voluntary contraction, but it was in some ways a reflection of the natural forces to which the hon. Gentleman drew our attention.
  Hon. Members know that the near and middle waters side of the industry has been in difficulty for some time, and that, in consequence, the Government, in December, 1948, agreed to put this subsidy at 10d. per stone on fish caught in the near and middle waters. Perhaps I
  1184
  should say here that I do not think it is appropriate to compare the position of farm prices with the position of fish prices. I can quite understand that it is difficult for the fisherman to understand why he should not have comparable treatment. But the truth is that the farming subventions, as, again, the hon. Gentleman knows very well, are offered for two purposes. They are offered to attract the farmer along a route of expansion which will eventually save us dollars, and they must be offered because the farmer is denied access to an open market. He has maximum prices imposed upon him.
  That is not the situation in the fishing industry just now, but, at the time in 1948 when this subsidy of 10d. per stone was offered for fish caught in the near and middle waters, it was, of course, part of the whole scheme. At that time, the distant side of the industry was comparatively more prosperous, but during the latter part of 1949, owing, I think, to a drop in home prices, even this side of the industry began to show some loss, so that today we can say that the position is an anxious one. The whole industry is in comparative distress of a varying kind. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was right in displaying some of the causes of these difficulties. But the causes are pretty various, and I confess that in these deputations with the experts, from whom I have sought to get counsel on this subject, there is great disagreement as to the precise causes and the area affected.
  During the war, it was plain to all that there was a shortage of food in general. Although there was a comparative shortage of fish foods, the demand was so high that prices were quite satisfactory, except, perhaps, to the consumer, and so we had to agree on both sides to the necessity for control at that time. Since the end of the war, the situation has been gradually changing. More vessels have come back into the industry, and under the planning of the Government—planning for which, apparently, the hon. Member has some kind of affection—the other types of food have become more plentiful. Therefore, for that and many other reasons the drop in the demand for fish has continued.
  Then there are other factors to which the hon. Gentleman drew our attention—the increases in the cost of fuel and gear.

  1185
  We have quite properly been concerned about the increased price of fuel and gear. Sometimes, the Opposition are very violent in their demands for free enterprise. I think that is a kind of general position, and that when it comes to a particular application they change their attitude a little. They have done that, I think, with discretion and propriety on this question of gear. The Government have done what they reasonably can in the matter. In the case of ropes, the prices are controlled, although I agree with the point made by the hon. Member that, apparently, for purposes of the fishing industry, there is no rope as good as manilla rope. As far as possible we have controlled these prices.
  On other items, such as nets—of which there is a great diversity of types—it is not possible to apply a rigid control. However, I think the Committee would want to know that the manufacturers have agreed not to raise the prices of nets without the prior agreement of the Central Price Regulation Committee. That committee has watched this subject diligently I am sure, but in some cases, where, for example, the price of the imported raw materials has continued to rise, it has been impossible to do otherwise than to permit the manufacturers to increase prices for net throughout limited ranges.
  Captain Duncan: In that connection, may I ask whether the recent increase of 3d. per lb. in the price of cotton will not mean an increase in the cost of the nets?
  Mr. McNeil: I am afraid I could not give an answer offhand, but I will look at the point and perhaps give an answer.
  These increases are a considerable factor in contributing to the present position and to the difficulties of the fishermen. Concurrently with that, a new situation has developed. The supply position of fish seemed ample, and the demand from the consumer comparatively lax. At that time—again, I think, without dissent from hon. Members on either side—the Government, in consequence, decided that we should end this scheme of control on 15th April. Naturally, the decision was not lightly taken. We tried to foresee the consequences, and, indeed, foresaw some of them. On reflection, I think it has to be admitted that we could not escape taking that decision. The
  1186
  objective of price control was, quite-plainly, to protect the consumer.
  By last winter, it was plain that such fish as cod and haddock—which make up, more than half our entire catch—were selling well below the maximum prices. The remainder of the catch, such as haddock, sole and plaice, which, I believe, were often fetching maximum or near-maximum prices, did not seem to be of sufficient quantity to justify the retention of the scheme for the whole industry. The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire made a rather vigorous attack upon part of the situation arising from decontrol. He referred to the B.B.C. and to the newspapers. I think he also criticised the Government for taking no action at all. That is not true. Both my right hon. Friend and myself went into the business as fast as we could, although I agree that the effect created was most unfortunate.
  I would say to the defenders of private enterprise on the benches opposite that the fault did not lie wholly with the newspapers and the B.B.C. At one port where we made observation, 200 new merchantmen came in on the first morning of decontrol. It was their scramble which was partially responsible for pushing up the prices. I am not at all distressed by the assurance that many of them burned their fingers very badly. But, at any rate, there was an equally violent reaction. Prices came down very low indeed. Housewives were staying. away from the fish shops and the merchants were holding off. It was a most regrettable consequence to commercial mismanagement, for it was essentially commercial mismanagement. As so often happens in comparable situations, it was the producer who bore, and is still bearing, the consequences of that situation.
  There were other consequences to this decision to end control, a decision from which, I repeat, I do not think we can escape. It brought to an end the power of the Government to pay the subsidy of 10d. a stone for fish caught in near and middle waters. It also brought to an end their ability to operate a flat transport scheme. The flat rate had its justification as long as there was a marked scarcity of fish and there was a maximum price, because in those circumstances, with a flat rate, merchants naturally would have sold their fish at the nearest market. The people away from the coast would have

  1187
  been denied a fair share of a very important and nutritious food at that time.
  The withdrawal of the flat freight scheme has put some areas at a disadvantage, notably the North and North-East of Scotland. However, I feel bound to say to some of the producers, and, no doubt, to some hon. Members of the Committee, that the net effect may not prove as serious as has been prophesied. Merchants, directly, and producers, indirectly, will both benefit from the cessation of the levy upon industry from which the freight scheme was financed. The decontrol of fish prices was started and, indeed, pressed for by the majority of the white fish producers. Perhaps I might be permitted to say that hon. Members opposite were not in the least '" blate " in supporting that argument and demand at that time. [An HON. MEMBER: " Blate? " Blate " is a very good Scots word. When we say someone was " not blate " we mean he was not diffident, backward or lacking in confidence. When a girl says her lover was " not,blate " she means the opposite.
  Mr. Osborne: That is typical of the Scots.
  Mr. McNeil: No, we are a humble race.
  The point I am making is that there was a demand from the industry for the ending of that control. Scottish producers did not associate themselves with that demand. It is another example of that most unfortunate phenomenon in the industry to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeenshire drew our attention—the apparently inability of this industry to agree on essentials. I should say, however, that they are agreed about the importation of foreign fish.
  I think the Committee would also have to admit that it is not possible to divide the industry into two and to say that in one part of the country we should have a flat rate transport scheme and a subsidy and, in another part of the country, no system of control at all. That was quite impracticable. We had to try and measure and give accord to the majority opinion. In passing, I should remind the Committee of the anxiety of the Government to rehabilitate the industry, and, particularly, of the help which was given to the inshore portion of the industry.
  Mr. Boothby: Can the right hon Gentleman give us no hope that he is considering the general question of transport charges affecting merchandise from the North of Scotland on long distance hauls? This announcement will cause consternation in Scotland. Can he hold out no hope that he is giving consideration to the question? I am not talking only of fish.
  Mr. McNeil: I do not pretend to meet the hon. Gentleman's wish, but perhaps, in a few moments, I will say something about the position in Aberdeen and the North East.
  I was referring to the anxiety of the Government and the help the Government have given to the inshore industry. Grants and loans were made available by the Inshore Fishing Industry Act, 1943, and the amounts were increased by the White Fishing and Herring Industries Act of 1948. If the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire now thinks that was a bad scheme, it was not thought at that time to be a bad scheme. It was eagerly seized upon by the small men inside the industry in an effort to re-establish themselves. In Scotland, for example, substantially as a result of this scheme, large seine net boats increased from 341 in 1938 to 641 in 1949.
  At the same time the operation of larger and more valuable diesel engined boats made provision of better harbour shelter essential. In Scotland, since 1945, some £360,000 have been contributed for this purpose. Further advances of just a little more than that have been already promised for the same purpose.
  Mr. Boothby: Chucked away.
  Mr. McNeil: The hon. Gentleman says " chicken-feed."
  Mr. Boothby: I said " chucked away."
  Mr. McNeil: I do not think that is so. If he is saying that that is not enough, if he is saying that it might have been applied otherwise, I am ready to listen. But it was not " chucked away." It was received eagerly by the men, and I offer it as evidence of the anxiety and determination of the Government to help these people as best they can.
  Since about 1948 the condition of the fishing industry in Aberdeen has caused special concern. I do not pretend that it

  1189
  was the peculiar anxiety and concern of the Government. It was felt all round this Committee. As a result, it was decided that at the official level an examination of the situation there should be made as speedily as possible. As I informed the House two days ago, we had a report from the Inter-Departmental Committee. At this stage I should say that I met a delegation from the Aberdeen industry last Saturday. I told them pretty broadly what came from the report. They were very courteous, patient, and persuasive, but I would not pretend to the Committee that they were otherwise than very disappointed with the conclusions of the Inter-Departmental Committee.
  I looked at the evidence and the conclusions, and I am persuaded that the inquiry was conducted with sympathy, even with prejudiced sympathy, towards Aberdeen. It was admitted by all sections of that Committee that Aberdeen suffered by the difference in its freight rate for fishing. For reasons which I offered to the House last Tuesday, the Government did not feel justified in making special provision, at any rate at this stage.
  As in most economic situations, the advantage does not lie either all the one way or the other. Aberdeen pays higher fuel rates, for example, but Aberdeen, for the most part of the fishing season, sustains an advantage in lying nearer to the fishing grounds than the ports further south. Any direct comparison between the effect of these higher fuel costs and shorter steaming could not be made, because Aberdeen trawler owners have not been in the habit of keeping precise statistics about the relationship between the cost of fuel and the value of fish caught. The right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieutenant-Colonel Elliot) is smiling, but I am not sure whether he is doing so because of the habits of the Aberdeen people or for some other reason.
  I have referred to the disadvantage which Aberdeen admittedly sustains with the withdrawal of the flat freight rate. The Aberdeen trawler fears that this advantage in the more southern ports will bring down the price of fish and that, therefore, he, in turn, will suffer by comparison and by competition. But I must tell the Committee that the extent to which Aberdeen is in competition with
  1190
  the English ports is most difficult to assess. I have consulted alleged expert after expert; I have consulted different representatives, and it is exceedingly difficult to obtain agreement on a figure or conclusions on this aspect of the problem. It can be argued, for example, that for the better varieties of fish, usually in better condition, there is no effective competition because there is a demand in the South for all that type and quality which Aberdeen can supply.
  It was also said most emphatically to me that there was no effective competition as regards the fish marketed in Scotland from Aberdeen, though I want to admit that the Aberdeen representatives argued emphatically and not unpersuasively that exactly the opposite was the case. They argued that a substantial proportion of the fish landed by Aberdeen boats is marketed in England, and that there is, therefore, a day-to-day competition. Moreover, they argued that since producers in the English ports incur, in certain respects to which I have already alluded, lower expenses, Aberdeen is not only placed at a disadvantage but is entitled to compensation.
  However, I repeat that the Government were unable to agree that their claim had been established or this conflict of views reconciled. Further, and quite plainly, the transport charges and the cost of fuel are only two aspects of the economy in Aberdeen. There are many other factors involved, and in other industries there must be comparable variations in transport and in fuel costs. The Government felt, therefore—and I do not see how we could have been expected to come, at this stage, to any other conclusion because of the conflict of evidence—that the position of the fishing industry in Aberdeen must be considered in the wider context of the industry as a whole and must be considered as part of the comprehensive examination which is now being undertaken by the Government.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the " comprehensive examination " of the conditions in the industry. He said that last Tuesday, and I think he has also said it before. Does that mean that the Government are preparing a new longterm policy, or that there will be a statement of policy today? What does the right hon. Gentleman mean?
  Mr. McNeil: I am not sure that I would be able to say anything which would satisfy the hon. Gentleman, but in a few minutes I will refer to the point.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: May I ask my right hon. Friend a question? The other day he told me that he was asking the fishery section of the Scottish Council to make further inquiries into the case of Aberdeen. Can he say what will be the scope of that inquiry?
  Mr. McNeil: I am glad to say that the industry in Aberdeen gave their concurrence to a proposal that the Scottish Development Council should set up a working party to look at certain features of the lay-out of the organisation of the industry in Aberdeen. In fairness to the representatives of the industry, I should say that they did not think very much good could come of this examination. They argued that the features which were discernible in Aberdeen were equally discernible in other ports. But they were very courteous, and after speedy consideration they agreed to take part in that inquiry which the working party of the Scottish Council has agreed to undertake.
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire used some rather violent language about herring prices. The Committee are familiar with the situation. I think nearly every hon. Member has had telegrams. I have already spoken too long, but I would say, partly in my defence, that I have tried to meet a fair number of interruptions. I do not want to leave this subject however, without saying that I hope the hon. Gentleman, who has great influence, particularly in this sector of the industry, will reconsider his eloquent and violent language. It is not reasonable for the hon. Gentleman to seek to persuade these men to tie up their boats unless their demands are met by the Herring Industry Board. It is not the end of the story to say that the Herring Industry Board are not offering a price which will afford a living wage to the men.
  If the Board and the industry have a successful season, as we all hope they will, then the profits which the Board own will be distributed. It is a very good example of co-operation. I dare say that it has had greater success than any other device which has been applied to the industry. At any rate, I can only hope that the fishermen, like the hon. Member for
  1192
  East Aberdeenshire, will reconsider their decision, bearing in mind that under the Board's proposals the Board would pay over to the fishermen everything which is. earned by the sale of their catches. They cannot offer more without the certainty almost of incurring substantial losses, which they would not be able to finance.
  There is one other thing I ought to say about this side of the industry. I should like to commend the Board, as so many hon. Members have done, for their efforts. They are diligently seeking additional markets. They have gone to, extraordinary lengths to try and get these markets and to produce herring in a fashion which will make them saleable in those markets. Hong Kong, the Far East, East and West Africa are examples of the areas in which we contemplate having sizeable projects.
  The hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart) asked me about the general intentions of the Government. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will say something about this when he winds up the Debate. I want to repeat that we are grateful to the Committee for the suggestions which have been offered and that we shall be grateful for any other practicable and equitable suggestions which may be offered in our reexamination of the position in the whole industry. I say to the Committee, on behalf of the Government, that we shall not shut our minds to any suggestion which is offered to us, provided it is equitable and practicable.
  Mr. Boothby: Is the right hon. Gentleman telling the Committee that he thinks that, with costs at the present level, a price of 61s. for top quality herring is. sufficient to cover the cost of production? If so, I do not think it is.
  Mr. McNeil: I think that is a question which should be settled between the people who must operate upon the basis of an agreed price—the Herring Industry Board and the fishermen. My point was that I did not think the hon. Member was doing justice to his reputation, and to these very intricate negotiations, by committing himself violently to such a negative policy.
  6.11 p.m.
  Mr. Wood: In the few weeks which I have already spent in this House, I have realised that the debt which

  1193
  is owed by maiden speakers to the House for the very kind and generous hearing they are given is sometimes paid only with difficulty. It has been very difficult to be uncontroversial in some of the Debates which we have had recently, and that is the reason I feel very great pleasure indeed in being allowed to speak this afternoon in this consideration of the fishing industry, which I believe hon. Members in all parts of the Committee recognise as absolutely essential to the future greatness of our country.
  I hope I may be forgiven if I do not follow my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State in the interesting things they have told us about the doings in the extreme north of these islands. I want to bring things a little nearer home—in fact, about half-way home—and to settle down on the east coast of Yorkshire, and I am very much reassured by the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law) intends to participate in this Debate and that the Minister of Agriculture will wind up for the Government. If Scotland has had the first word, Yorkshire will have the last, and I therefore ask the Committee to forgive me if in what I say I travel from the north a little towards London. Perhaps I can reassure the Secretary of State by saying that I shall, at least, try to speak English. If he has any difficulty in understanding me, I hope he will let me know.
  I wish to say a word about the difficulties of the inshore fishermen who frequently seem to be a little forgotten, because it is about that branch of the industry that my knowledge is greatest—or perhaps I could say, with greater honesty and greater modesty, that my ignorance is least. The first problem which is facing these men is one which has been touched upon already by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire—the problem of continually rising costs. My hon. Friend gave examples which I think should suffice to show that costs have been rising very steadily since the beginning of the war. The particular articles upon which the cost has risen for the inshore men include hemp and cotton line—both three or four times higher in price than before the war; and bait—mussels and whelks—the price of which is very much higher. The rise
  1194
  in costs is not the whole story. My hon. Friend has already spoken of the inferior quality of sisal compared with that of manilla. I also stress the inferior quality of present-day hooks compared with the hooks before the war. They last about one-third of the time, so that their effective cost has risen not by three to four times but by something between nine and twelve times. If this continues, the inshore fishermen will very shortly be out of business.
  The second difficulty about which I should like some assurance from the Minister, when he winds up the Debate, concerns the great anxiety which has been felt by these men during the last few days that they will have to bear a little, if not all, of the increased duty on fuel oil. I believe they are misinformed, but I should very much value an assurance from the Minister that they will, in fact, be able to avoid this increase in their costs.
  The third difficulty is that of over-fishing. It has already been discussed in this Debate, but it is a particular difficulty for those fishermen who are trying to find their living in the near waters. Until a short time ago I had never seen anything very attractive about a minefield. but I am now convinced that the minefields which were laid during the last war were a very welcome haven for fish and that they have contributed largely to the re-stocking and re-population of the North Sea. I am not suggesting that minefields should be laid again, but I do suggest that the Government should do everything in their power to implement the international agreement to stop the over-fishing of the North Sea.
  I believe fishing needs a long-term plan. In the few weeks which I have spent in this House I have been disturbed to see a look of merriment come over the faces of hon. Members on the Government benches when any interest in planning is evinced by the Opposition. I think all of us on these benches are entirely in favour of plans, as long as those plans are realistic and as long as the planners do not try to plan unplannable details. Those are the two necessities for a plan.
  What we are asking is that fishing should be given the same kind of stability

  1195
  as that which has been given to agriculture. I am quite aware of all the difficulties which stand in the way. After all, a system of guaranteed prices and markets for agriculture is still young and, compared with the yield of the sea, the yield of the land is a glorious certainty. There will, therefore, be plenty of difficulties if we are to give to the fishing industry the same kind of stability as that which has been given to agriculture. As I see it, to get security and confidence in this fishing industry we must have either stability of costs or stability of prices, or both.
  I do not believe that any of us wants to return to price control. It gave a certain security, but it was open to powerful and weighty objections which it is administratively impossible to overcome. What I should like to do is to ask the help of the Ministry at least to hold costs firm and, if possible, to assist in reducing them, because if costs continue to rise there will be only one result—fishermen all over the country will be driven from business. The question we are considering is, therefore, whether the fishing industry shall continue. I do not think it is enough to look at this question through a pair of economic spectacles. If one reads history, however superficially, one realises the tremendous contribution which the fishing industry has made, not only to the greatness of this country but also to the much wider objective of breaking down the barriers which divide men in one country from men in another. It is my conviction that the fishing industry has the same kind of contribution to make in the future and, therefore, that it deserves every help that either this Government or any future Government can possibly give it.
  6.20 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Evans: It is my pleasurable duty to say, on behalf of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, how, much we have enjoyed the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood). His ease, his clarity, his gentle humour—without that facetiousness, which is fatal in this Chamber, I imagine—and his deep interest in the subject he had so easily at his command, have given us the hope and expectation that he will enrich our Debates, with great profit
  1196
  to us. He follows, of course, a very distinguished former Member of the House of Commons, one who has risen to very high eminence in the State, and whom once I had, in a very humble capacity as a school master, to go before —and " go before " is, I should think, the right term, because to me he was such an awe-inspiring person that I retain a very vivid recollection of him and of the occasion. However, I would again say to the hon. Gentleman that we enjoyed his maiden speech, and look forward to hearing from him again.
  We are grateful to the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) for having opened this Debate in his usual exuberant style. We enjoyed it very much, but I am sure his enjoyment was much greater than ours—not that ours was not considerable. I find myself in a very great difficulty, because there are so many points on which I am in agreement with him, and which he has already elaborated, that it would be invidious for me to follow them in the detail with which I had intended to speak of them. However, it is very necessary that this subject should be debated at the moment.
  Fish has been news. During the past weeks it has obtained a great deal of attention, as has been said, in the Press —and a lot of this notoriety we could very well have done without. Unfortunately, the blame can be laid, to a very large measure, on the industry itself. I am not saying that the Press, in its desire to get exciting news, did not make a great feature of it, but we must remember that the Press reported what happened on the markets.
  I have been on the periphery of this industry for some 22 years, first as a resident of Great Yarmouth—and I was very disappointed that the hon. Member, in his very interesting historical survey, although he mentioned Great Yarmouth, did not mention the equally interesting port of Lowestoft.
  Mr. Boothby: The hon. Gentleman must blame Professor Trevelyan for that.
  Mr. Evans: I have tried at various times to penetrate to the centre of this industry; and I must confess that the more contacts I make, the more I get into touch with the various elements that comprise this very diverse, uncohered industry, the more difficult I find it to get what I may

  1197
  be called the considered view of the industry as a whole. It is one of the least integrated of industries, and one most difficult to act for. I would agree with the hon. Member and with the Secretary of State for Scotland that it is up to the industry itself to create the machinery by which its interests—the interests of its various component elements—may be more closely assimilated.
  During recent years, since the war, there has been a high degree of prosperity in the industry in regard to both herring fishing and the white fish. Catches following the war, after a long period of rest, have been high; owners have derived good profits; and the men's position—and I am particularly glad of that—in regard to wages, status and influence in the industry, has risen; and also there has been a considerable diminution in unemployment. Today, we are back in the difficult times. What I believe the Tory Party call " the good old days " have come back. We are back in the position we were in after the First World War, and it is our duty—it is the duty of the industry and of the Government —to do what we can, without a great deal of recrimination, to bring the industry out of its present difficult position.
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire in his more didactic moments, pointed his finger at the Government Front Bench. I should like to point my finger at him, and ask what he meant by certain of his suggestions. I will come to him in a moment, if I do not drive him from the Chamber before I have finished—which I promise will not be very long from now.
  I happened to be in my constituency on the day control was lifted, and I was considerably disturbed at the way prices rocketed. I am pleased to say that the more responsible men in the industry were equally disturbed, because they could see the result that that would have on the prosperity of the industry, at least in the immediate period following this amazing lack of foresight on the part of the industry, which ought to have been able to foresee and guard against such a catastrophic state of affairs. It augurs ill indeed for free enterprise and decontrol if that vision, which ought to have been there, is so remarkably absent in the industry's attitude to consumer reaction.
  1198
  I noticed, in the speech of the hon. Gentleman, that in his special pleading for the industry he did not once show any regard for the consumers' interests. I know that those of us who represent fishing ports here are primarily concerned with the producers, but I would remind hon. Members that we have also an obligation to the consumers. We must not forget them. The consequences, of course, were alarming. What is the basic trouble? I would say that the fundamental disability afflicting the fishing industry is a lack of consumer demand, and that unless we can stimulate that, the industry is in for a very long period of thin years. There is no question about that. Consumer demand has fallen off. It falls off for two reasons. One is lack of quality and the other is high prices. These two causes operate today—inferior quality and too high prices. There has been a big decline in the consumption of herring in the home market, and the home market is the one that takes the prime quality of herring.
  I am told—I had the information only yesterday—that the decline in the kipper section of the herring industry is 50 per cent. in two years. That is a very serious state of affairs, and the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire is right when he says it is due to the fact that we have not paid sufficient attention to the quality that we are allowing for the kippering section of the industry. It has been suggested—and I am sorry that, here, I shall have to cross swords with the hon. Member for Bridlington—that the ring net fishing at Whitby in August and September ought to be barred; that the herring are " mazy " and are allowed to go for kippering to the detriment of the trade. No industry can can survive on a bad quality commodity, and if that is allowed we shall be doing a great disservice to the herring industry.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire did not give the whole story when he spoke about prices. The over-all price is not so thoroughly accepted by the industry as one is led to suppose sometimes. I had rather a shock in my constituency not very long ago when I told them that I had supported the hon. Gentleman—as I very often do, in spite of the fact that he sometimes visits my constituency in other interests, although with no success—on this question of the over-all price for

  1199
  herring, because I was immediately assailed—if that is not too strong a word —by interests there who said that at any rate certain sections of the trade did not want an over-all price because they relied on quality—quality being one of the features of all the fish, both herring and white fish, landed at the port of Lowestoft.
  On the question of the over-all price, strange to say, both sections of the industry, the Scottish and the English fishermen, have come together and agreed to approach the Herring Industry Board. It has been stated that the price offered was 60s. a cran. That is only part of the truth. The truth is that there will be.area pools with bonuses—I am sorry they are to be differential bonuses—paid in respect of the trading position at the end.of the summer season. I assume they are taking as their model the very successful experiment that has been praised from these benches—the Lerwick experiment.
  The trade, no doubt quite justifiably, are putting up a higher bid, and are asking for 75s. a cran as against the 60s. offered by the Herring Industry Board. The Minister has already told us that the Herring Industry Board cannot pay this out unless they get a Government guarantee, and I am with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire in suggesting to the Government that as the fishing industry is so important to us, and as it performs such a useful function, being analogous to the agricultural industry, the Government should sympathetically,consider guaranteeing the Herring Industry Board in order that they can pay this price.
  A little had been said about overseas' markets. I do not want to indulge in too much special pleading, but I would ask the Minister to consider one aspect -of the herring export industry, and that is the rough packed ungutted herring which has a market in Belgium and France. Unless those carrying on this trade can get allocations they will be deprived of those markets, into which the Dutch are already penetrating and which they will, no doubt, capture, unless 'something is done. It is quite a profitable market for a restricted part of the industry, but one in which my constituency is somewhat interested.
  1200
  The position in regard to white fish has deteriorated, and is now desperate since decontrol. I sometimes wonder who really wanted decontrol. We have had representations in this House, in the fisheries committee of our own party, and from the big interests, pleading for decontrol; but I have been at pains to interview practical boat-owners, fishermen, and it is surprising to find the number of men who had no enthusiasm for decontrol, and who, now that it is there, are more anxious than they were when control was on. The industry asked for it; they pleaded for it, and now they have got it. But I am quite sure that they did not envisage, as the Minister has said, the situation in which, at one port alone, 200 new merchants have come on to the scene, and in which, at various ports throughout the country, there are already 600 scrambling for a living. Inevitably, the result is that the older members must protect themselves, and already the merchants' associations are, I understand, protecting themselves by withholding the facilities of credit. Inevitably, we shall get another ring if this situation continues.
  A great deal has been said about over-fishing. Quite frankly, I agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire when he says, " Put the heat on Iceland." I do not want to be misunderstood. I say that any country which exports fish to Britain, but which has not signed the Over-Fishing Convention ought to have their landings barred. I would not say that about any other commodity they send to us, but if ever there was a case for applying sanctions it is in the protection of our own industry, which those countries are flouting by not signing the convention. I spoke on this subject on an Adjournment Debate in 1947, and in spite of the efforts of the Government to get agreement—I am not complaining, because it is very difficult to impose sanctions—I believe that only three or four countries have signed the convention. No doubt the Minister will tell us about this later.
  Mr. Joynson-Hicks: When the hon. Gentleman refers to " signing " the convention, does he not mean ratify the convention?
  Mr. Evans: Yes. I thank the hon, Gentleman. I did mean ratification.

  1201
  On the question of foreign landings, I warn the Government that last year Icelandic landings were down compared with 1948, due, no doubt, to the fact that the German market was then fairly wide open. But now, with the rehabilitation of the German fishing fleet, that market will be closed to a great deal of the Icelandic trade, and they will try to get their fish landed here.
  I return to the consumer interest and the policy of the Ministry of Food, which, as has been stated, has not been in harmony with that of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. The primary duty of the Minister of Food is to feed the people, but the time has now come when he can afford to take a much stronger line with foreign landings than he has done so far, and I hope, particularly in view of what I have said about sanctions, that he will do so.
  I was on the telephone today to my constituency, before this Debate, and I was told that boxed Dutch plaice of prime quality is available in Lowestoft today at 6s. a stone. I am wondering what the housewife will have to pay for it. Even if she pays 100 per cent. on that, I am quite sure that she will not get it for ls. a pound. This disparity between the price which the producer gets—in this case it is the Dutchman, but it applies equally to our own people—and what the housewife pays is one into which it would profit the Government to make a very close examination indeed.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire has gone from the Chamber, because I interrupted him to ask whether he would define his attitude to a white fish commission. It will be remembered that he spoke about a white fish marketing board. I took this point up with him and I wish that he had replied to me then. Is it the policy of the Opposition and of the hon. Member particularly to set up a white fish commission, which appears to be analogous to the Herring Industry Board?
  I do not want to misrepresent what the hon. Member said, but I think he said, " If you advocate that policy, I am willing to go with you all the way." That is a very brave statement to make, because I am convinced that unless we can get an overall authority for the industry, not only for marketing but for production, allocation and, particularly. distribution, we
  1202
  shall not get very much further in rehabilitating this great and important industry.
  I must not keep the Committee longer, but I would urge the Government to consider very strongly the setting up of a board or a commission—call it what we will—of independent people, who are not to be swayed other than in an advisory way by the trade itself, to regulate this industry. We all know the advantages that have accrued to the herring industry through the direction and assistance of the Herring Board, and I hope that we shall get something on the same lines for the white fish industry.
  Finally, if we are to protect the position of the working fisherman who has now attained a status comparable with that of the industrial worker, if we are to maintain it and provide full employment; if we are to maintain his holidays with pay, not heard of in the industry before, and decent wages, we must do our best to see that this vital industry is rehabilitated and strengthened to play its very important part in the economic life of the country.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. Duthie: Members of the Government in recent weeks have been receiving first-hand and indisputable information directly from the producers in the fishing industry concerning the catastrophic state in which the industry finds itself now. It is particularly necessary in a Debate of this kind, where factual information is so absolutely vital, for each one who is sufficiently fortunate to catch your eye, Major Milner, to state the position as he sees it in relation to that part of the industry which he represents in this House.
  On three occasions since this Parliament met, I have called the Government's. attention to the parlous position of the fishing industry—in the Debate on the Gracious Speech and when I was fortunate to speak in two Adjournment Debates. In the last Adjournment Debate, which was sponsored by the hon. Member for Fife, East (Mr. Stewart), I was amazed that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, in reply to that Debate, when we were discussing the Scottish fishing industry and its plight, apparently based his argument and the findings of the Government upon representations made by the British Trawlers-Federation.

  1203
  The British Trawlers Federation does not represent Scotland in any way. It is true to say, I think, that none of the trawler owners in Scotland are members of that body. It appeared to us in that Debate that the influence which apparently held sway at the Scottish Office had been created south of the Border. The apprehension that we expressed on those three occasions concerning what would ensue when the controls were removed has unfortunately been only too amply borne out.
  As you probably know, Major Milner, I represent in this House the inshore fishing industry and the herring industry. Those are the two industries into which I was born and brought up, and I have been associated with them all my life. I should like to deal with the inshore white fishing industry first. That industry, as we know on the Moray Firth coast, has not been paying its way for a long time. It has been progressively declining, and while the deckhands—and this is a very important consideration— who are the non-partner members of the crew but are there on a profit-sharing basis have been getting a good wage weekly, the fisherman-owner of the vessel have been getting steadily into debt.
  I can see no hope under the present arrangement, with the additional load which the industry in the north of Scotland has to carry, of economic rehabilitation or, indeed, of economic survival of this industry. I will not go over the points that contribute to that state of affairs—the cost of gear, vessels, repairs and operational costs, and all that sort of thing. These points have been fully explained to the Minister of Food, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Board of Trade by deputations which have met them in the course of the last few days.
  A deputation from the North representing the inshore fishing industry saw the Minister of Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland as recently as 3rd April. The case which they put forward in common with other deputations was uncontrovertible, and it is hoped that some good will come of this Debate on that account. By reason of the geographical position in the North, the removal of price controls, the subsidy and the flate rate put an end to any hope of successful operation, bearing in mind that
  1204
  we are working now on the inshore fishing grounds of the north of Scotland which have been very seriously depleted by over-fishing. That cannot be laid at the door of our own fishermen. The foreign trawler is responsible for the grave condition in which we find our inshore fishing grounds.
  The new vessels which have been acquired very largely by ex-Service men have been the most hard hit bcause they have been acquired new at the top market price since the war. A grant and loan came to their assistance to secure them in the first instance, but the heavy overheads which they have to carry have been such that several of them—and, indeed, 27 of them are known to the Secretary of State for Scotland himself—have not been able to pay their insurance premiums for the last 12 months, not through lack of the will to do so, not through lack of seamanship and not through the wrong type of skipper in the wheel house. These chaps are first-class fishermen, but the over-fishing and competitive conditions which they have to meet have rendered their economic position such as I have described.
  Our industry is threatened with extinction. I say that in all seriousness. It is not only the livelihood of our fishermen and their families which is at stake, but the livelihood of all the fish workers, the ship chandlers, carpenters, engineers, riveters and shopkeepers. The economy of the whole of the Moray Firth coast is at stake, because it depends entirely on the fishing industry. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) said—and it is something that must be emphasised on every possible occasion—the fish our fishermen produce is competing all along the line with foods that are heavily subsidised. It is quite impossible to expect or ask the housewife to pay a price which is commensurate with the cost to the producer.
  The price we obtain is affected all the time, if not actually determined, by the fish imported from foreign sources. We know that foreign fish is not of such good quality, but it goes direct to the distributing centres without having to come to the quayside markets and stand comparison with our own catches. This foreign fish arrives in boxes at the distributing centres, and if the fish wholesaler or retailer buys some of that fish at what is a

  1205
  reasonable price to him, he buys that much less fish landed by our own seamen at our own ports in our own vessels. That is a point which must be prominently borne in mind.
  The remedies I suggest to meet this situation are these. First, I suggest the strictest control of foreign importations of boxed fish direct to the distributing centres. I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans) that all fish should pass through the quayside markets. The importations of foreign fish must be so regulated that at no time is there any danger of our own supplies having to be sold for fisheal and the like. Our own fish should shave the pride of place in our markets, which the foreigners would be only too happy to participate in by supplying any deficiency on a day-to-day basis. Secondly, there should be complete control of the landings of fish by foreign vessels. It may interest the Committee to know that in North Shields last year more fish was landed by Danish and Norwegian vessels than was brought in by our own boats.
  Thirdly, we want a white fish marketing board with greater powers than the Herring Industry Board. We want that board to have control over all landings and importations, as well as over the channeling and marketing of fish. That is absolutely necessary. Fourthly, we want the fullest implementation of this international agreement. I have seen haddock disappear during my lifetime from the Moray Firth as a result of the depredations by foreign trawlers. We want to see international policing in all waters, so that any foreign vessel coming into our waters can be examined and ordered to port for any infringements of the agreement.
  Fifthly, we want more fat for the fish friers. There is a vast latent market here waiting to absorb great quantities of fish. In addition, we want an additional fish course to be served in restaurant meals, which will also absorb a considerable amount of fish at a reasonable price. Lastly, we want immediate financial assistance. In my view, a subsidy of Is. 3d. per stone should be paid on all fish landed in British ports from inshore or near-water vessels. That is very necessary until this business sorts itself out and we can get some proper perspective
  1206
  in regard to gear costs and on-costs for the industry. If the industry is to continue in its present form, it must have financial assistance. That is the position in the North, and it applies to a greater or lesser extent around the coast.
  I now wish to turn to trawling. Near-water trawlers are being laid up in Aberdeen. A large number have already been laid up there, and vessels that are perfectly sea-worthy are being offered at scrap prices. The owners of these are suffering from over fishing, and they want assistance just as much as the inshore fishermen. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire pointed out, the operation costs in 1938 for a near-water and inshore trawler were some £20 a day, whereas today the costs are between £65 and £80 with an average daily catch value of £50. No industry can continue on these lines, and therefore this is a matter which must be taken in hand in the most constructive way at Government level.
  I sincerely trust that something will transpire as a result of the recent deputation, on which the chairman of the Aberdeen Fishery Trawlers Association, Mr. Harrow, was informed that a working party would be instituted to go into the matter at Aberdeen. I should like to be assured that this inquiry will not be confined to Aberdeen, but that it will also take into consideration the equally deserving ports along the Moray Firth, ranging from Wick right round to Peterhead, including Buckie, Macduff, Lossiemouth, Whitehill and Fraserburgh. These ports are in a worse plight than Aberdeen.
  I should now like to deal with herring fishing and the new prices for 1950. These prices are disquieting. Our herring fishermen in the Moray Firth area have had two disastrous years. Last year the Herring Board fixed the top price at 89s. a cran, which has now been cut to 61s.
  Mr. Edward Evans: The top price was 89s., whereas this is an overall price. The price is graded according to the quality of the herring.
  Mr. Duthie: The price is graduated down, and so is it in this particular instance. The sum of 61s. is the top price, and it comes down to 35s. a cran. The former price was 89s. which came down to 35s., and now it is 61s. to 35s. I have the document here. It is true that an

  1207
  average would be struck and a bonus would be paid in respect of the profit earned on the deal, but if the top price was 89s. last year and the year before, and the Herring Board bring it down to 61s.—the price they can afford to pay—the fishermen are presented with this situation: how can they have confidence in the future? In consequence—and I am stating this as a dire fact and I do not hold that fishermen should not go to sea for those prices—fishermen are not encouraged to go to sea today. They can see no prospect of a living wage for themselves and their families from herring fishing, and there is no prospect, things being as they are, for them to acquire new gear. So they are not encouraged.
  Ten days ago I spoke to one of our most successful herring skippers at Buckie Harbour. He has one of the most up-to-date drifters in the harbour, but he cannot get a crew. They prefer to take casual labour work ashore, because, for the nonce, they are assured of a regular wage. That is a serious position, and one which I am sure the Herring Board are viewing with the very greatest concern, because in my view the Board are a most excellent instrument, an instrument which would make for greater efficiency if they could get greater powers, particularly in the handling of the home market for fresh herring.
  I do not want to touch on some of the points that were made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire concerning new markets and the like. He dealt with that matter very fully, but I should like to ask the Government this question—it has come to this for the inshore fishing industry in the north of Scotland and also for the herring industry —do the Government desire the Scottish fishing industry to survive, or want a remnant of the Scottish fleet to leave their home areas and become based upon English ports or on ports in Eire? There are signs of that-migration having already started. This is a matter of the very greatest seriousness.
  In conclusion, I want to say that I hope this Debate will be a prelude to some really forceful and constructive action being taken, otherwise our northern coasts will become a locality of deserted towns and villages, which visitors in the future will look upon with awe, as they will
  1208
  know that once those villages cradled the finest seamen in the world.
  The Chairman: May I make an appeal to hon. Members to make their speeches as short as possible. There are far more Members who desire to speak than the Chair can possibly call upon but it would help if hon. Members would make their speeches as short as possible.
  7.4 p.m.
  Squadron-Leader Kinghorn: I shall keep my eye on the clock, and I hope to follow the rule which you, Major Milner, have laid down for us and speak for a short time. I must say that I have wondered this afternoon why fishing, of all subjects, should be debated so quickly after the election, and I rather thought, bearing in mind how level the score was yesterday in a match between the two sides, that someone on the Opposition said, " To debate fishing is a good electioneering trick. Let us have a Debate on it and throw out everything that is bad in the industry, blaming it on the Labour Government."
  If one of those gentlemen from Iceland happened to be sitting in one of the Galleries, listening to this Debate, he would have got the impression that the hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the Committee who want all these regulations, controls, red-tape and financial assistance from the Government, represented the Labour Party, because we have heard continual appeals from hon. Members opposite for the rescue of this dying industry by Government help. We have been told, just a few days after controls have been taken off, that this industry is facing bankruptcy.
  The greatest blow that has been struck at the industry since controls came off, in my opinion, was the revolt of the housewife. She refused to buy fish because it was too dear, and, thereby compelled the industry to take new steps in the matter of price. The industry, now that it has been decontrolled, has to provide fish that will compete with the other foods that can be bought in the shops, because if it does not, the housewife will refuse to pay the price demanded for the fish. That state of affairs has to be faced by the industry in the next few years whether there is a new type of Government sitting on these benches or the type represented by the Members at present on this side of the Committee
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby)who is not in the Chamber now, told us something about regulations and Government help. He also told us about his own approach in this House to the matter of fishing for 25 years. I wondered, as he was speaking—I was not in the House during all those years of which he was speaking—what was his attitude in the years before the war, when a Tory Home Secretary raided the Arcos offices in 1926, as a result of which the herring industry in the English ports and in the Scottish ports was almost ruined. During the last few years, under a Labour Government, the industry has been building up its prosperity, and the Government have gone out of their way to help it rise from the ruins in which we found it in 1945 when the war was over.
  What has emerged from this Debate is that hon. Members opposite want the Government to come into this industry, put it on its feet, and keep it there. I agree. We have travelled far from the days when we considered that industries which provide the necessities of life can be left on their own, and that we can afford to allow them to lapse into the condition in which coal mining was before the Labour Government nationalised it. Fish is an elemental, economic product, just as coal is, and we should look upon it with the same kind of favour as we look upon coal mining. It is an essential industry, which should be kept on its feet, if necessary, by Government control, and all the little sections in it should not be allowed to fight against each other with one or two " smart Alecks " coming along for the plunder to the detriment of most of the fellows who do the work in the industry.
  It has been found in the ports that decontrol does not pay, and the danger is that the standard of living of the fishermen will fall much below that of the ordinary civilian. The industry must be put on a sound basis, and the Government have got to give a hand to get some sort of control or board. Where I disagree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire is that he wants a marketing board to look after some people who were always able to look after themselves. They are the type who wait for the fish to come in, and then they collect their wealth. My consideration is for
  1210
  the fellow in the blue jersey—and I gave a warning during the election that decontrol might have a serious effect on him. It has come, because, since 15th April, he has got the dirty end of the stick, and unless we do something quickly he will again go through those years of depression which he went through in the years before the war, when the industry had not the control which we now agree that it should have had. We must look after him. We must safeguard these people, who are our first line of defence when war breaks out, and see that we keep them afloat in peace time in their drifters and trawlers and whatever else they sail in for inshore fishing.
  Besides that, the Government must keep an eye on the whole thread of activity in the industry and see that the housewife does not need to revolt as she has done in the last few weeks, that the commodity flows through, that a decent standard of living is given to the people in the industry, and that people in the industry who are unnecessary to the fisherman on the one hand or the housewife on the other are eliminated. If we are to get a really streamlined industry we want something much more than a marketing board. We have the Herring Industry Board. We have long advocated that more power should be given to the Board, so that it can work more efficiently than it has done since the war. In the case of white fish, the whole thing needs looking at from top to bottom. We need a commission to cover the whole of the industry, not just a marketing board to ensure that some fellows make a fat living out of a commodity while they play no part in the dangerous business of getting it. We want everybody, from the fisherman to the consumer, to be safeguarded.
  I hope that the Government will give some indication that they realise the seriousness of the position and will give us a promise that in their lifetime, however short it may be, we may expect a white fish commission to act alongside the Herring Industry Board, with wider powers than it now possesses, so that this elemental basic industry, which ought to have been organised a long time ago, will give a decent standard of living to the people in the constituencies represented here. That can only be done by means

  1211
  of Government regulations and a certain amount of " red tape." But if it is the only way to keep the industry going then it is a national necessity.
  There is also the question of foreign landings. I was rather amazed at the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire. He goes trotting off to Strasbourg and talks about an economy for Western Europe. He says that he has asked for that from that corner seat for years, and he wants to ask the Dutch, the French, the Poles and the Danes to come into it. Yet he comes here on a constituency matter and talks about " turning the heat on the Icelanders." The Icelanders are only trying to make an honest living. Here is a market with a thick population and they come into it.
  I hope that before the Debate finishes, the Minister will give us the figures to enable us to put the question of foreign landings in its proper perspective. Have they been as harmful as some people make out? I doubt it. On the other hand, if they have to be controlled I am all for it because we must put our own people first, but it does not ring true when we get one of the Strasbourg protagonists turning the heat on the Icelanders and then turning it on the Dutch. This is all part of the European problem, and we are all in it. We have to work out some way of seeing that the working people of Holland, Belgium, Poland and France and our constituents in England and Scotland get their share of the riches from the common fishing grounds and ensuring that we do not harm those fishing grounds in the process.
  There is also the question of building trawlers for the Icelanders. During the Debate I have been wondering if there is a trawler maker on the benches opposite. I wonder if there is a Member of the Tory Party who has actually got a contract for building one or more of the 10 trawlers for the Icelanders. What is his view about it? Is he annoyed because the money was raised in London and the trawlers are being built in this country? Is there an hon. Member on either side of the Committee who is annoyed because a number of people in his own constituency are making trawlers for the Icelanders? In some of our constituencies there are the best people in the world at building trawlers, and it is
  1212
  the sensible thing to see that we get such orders. Admittedly, after they have been made and are on the fishing grounds they will be competing with some of our trawlers which are not so modern, and we must then have some agreement and some Government regulation, but it ill-befits hon. Members opposite to attack the building of these trawlers, because they will give work to people 'in small shipyards like some of those in Yarmouth.
  At the moment the gear which the fishermen have to buy is too dear, like many other products in this country. It would be grand if the President of the Board of Trade could say that he has found a way of reducing the price of gear to what it was in 1939, but that is out of the question. When I was with some people representing the silk industry the other day I tried to find out if we could get some nylon nets to replace those of sisal and manilla, which are difficult to get. I was told that that was possible but that they would cost three times as much as the other nets. Perhaps we can pass on to the industry the task of trying to reduce the price of nylon nets to one-third of what they are now. The industry should get its technicians on the job, for even if it took six months or a year it would be worth while. That might be done in this country. I do not know, because I am not an expert on nylon, but I hope this suggestion will be brought to the notice of the industry.
  We are now accepting the fact that fishermen, like agricultural workers and coal miners, are the producers of basic elements for the continuance of life in this country. I should like the Government to start off from that basis and give us a commission which would enable us to unify the industry and the workers. themselves. I should like to see them all becoming members of the Agricultural Workers' Union, whose members provide the other foods for our people. It would be a grand thing. I know that there are difficulties. It is easy to reach the farm worker in his village, because he is never far from the land where he works. But the only time I see the fellows in the blue jerseys is at election time, or at occasional village meetings, when they happen to be home from a voyage and one meets them almost by accident.
  It is very difficult to get all these people together, but the Agricultural Workers'

  1213
  Union is already represented in villages in Norfolk, and probably it could bring them all together and put their representations before hon. Members and the Government better than they have been put before. Other hon. Members may suggest other unions, but however it is done I should like to see the unity of those workers achieved. Then we could hold out hope to the industry, not of avoiding all the periodic difficulties, because there are bound to be gluts when plenty of fish enter the nets and the opposite if there are not enough fish when the trawlers go out, but of ironing out the difficulties, with the different sides working together instead of against each other. so that one fellow can do the other chap out of something. The Government are in a position to give a lead tonight if they can say that some kind of board or commission is on the way.
  7.17 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: On rising to address the Committee for the first time, I claim, as is customary, the indulgence of hon. Members in bearing with me and my shortcomings and in extending the courtesy which is usual upon these rather difficult occasions.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie), I was extremely pleased with an answer which I was given yesterday regarding the Meals in Establishments Order. I hope that something will come of this in the near future. I feel that if the supply of fish has been de-controlled, there is a case for the consumption to be de-controlled also.
  We have heard speakers from the North and East, and I should like to shift for the time being to one or two of the problems in the far West. I will first deal with some of the difficulties of the canning industry in West Cornwall. In 1948 the Cornish Sea Fishers Committee met and were addressed by a representative of, I believe, the Ministry of Food, who encouraged them to undertake the production of canned pilchards as soon as possible because he said something to the effect that there would be no possibility of canned fish imports from the dollar areas for at least five years. After initial difficulties, some seven firms started, I believe, and they now have an output of 200,000 cases a year.
  As may be well imagined, they were extremely alarmed, when in 1949 large
  1214
  quantities of Japanese, Clifornian and South African canned pilchards were imported. The position today is that these firms have about 12,000 cases of canned pilchards unsold. At the same time I believe the Ministry say that 30,000 cases of Japanese pilchards are on their way to this country, bought with dollars. I understand that the Ministry have told our canners that their prices are too high. It may be that they are a bit higher, but I submit that the wages we-pay to the people employed in canning these fish are very different from those. paid to the Japanese. If we cannot produce enough—and of this I am not sure—why should not our share be taken before the Japanese?
  I believe that certain constituents of mine asked the Ministry if they would take some of this surplus and the reply was that the Ministry of Food were not traders. Yesterday I was handed a tin of pilchards from which I took the label I hold in my hand. On it is a picture of a pilchard and underneath is stated that it was packed in Japan, and next to it is a notice " Imported by the Ministry of Food, London." That is hardly consistent with not being traders. In my division there are mothers and relations of men who have lost their lives at sea, whose feelings I am sure hon. Members can well imagine when they go into shops in West Cornwall and see on the shelves such tins packed in Japan and imported by the Ministry of Food. [An HON. MEMBER: " Shame!"] They have made vigorous protests to me on this subject.
  What is the effect on the fishermen? The British Canners' Association have guaranteed the fishermen 3s. a stone for pilchards provided we are not flooded with foreign imports. If these canners have to close down, I am informed that approximately 750 fish workers will be thrown out of work and that it will have a serious effect on some 450 fishermen. Lastly on this canning question, in the event of war there would be no Japanese pilchards, even if people agree with their importation now. Possibly then we should be turning to the canners in this. country. If so, surely they must be kept going and given a reasonable security for the future should there be another war —which, pray God, will not happen—so that they would be ready.
  A great deal has been said about the; cost of gear. If no manilla twine has

  1215
  been bought because the excuse is made that dollars are not available, surely dollars can be better used for buying manilla twine than for importing Japanese pilchards? I was interested to hear the hon. and gallant Member for Yarmouth (Squadron-Leader Kinghorn) suggesting research into the use of nylon. Even though this is three times the price today, I see no reason why research should not be carried out in an attempt to bring down the price.
  Hon. Members will agree that there is considerable concern as to the future of this industry owing to the lack of recruitment. My hon. Friend the Member for Banff told us about the difficulties of getting crews, and this is a matter which causes many of us great concern. May I make some suggestions to the Government to try to overcome this difficulty? First, there should be really effective and interesting propaganda in schools to bring to the notice of adventurous children what a grand and wonderful service they can give their country—and I mean service—in going into the fishing industry. This might also be the subject of special lectures in such schools as the Outward Bound Trust. In addition, the West Country has put up a scheme to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries which has been approved by the Council of Further Education for the south-western area. I believe that this training scheme has not gone through yet because the Minister of Education has not been able to give the necessary training grants. I hope that something may be done in this matter.
  Would it be possible to have a kind of fishermen's reserve of the Royal Navy? Its object would be to enrol young men of call-up age, or before. They would be exempt from National Service, on condition that they did not go into the reserve to dodge National Service. They would sign on for a period of, say, 10 years, they would be given naval training in off-season periods, and in this way we would have in the event of war a ready, well-trained and excellent body of men ready to go immediately into the patrol and mine-sweeping service, as they have done in two world wars. Those of us who have served in the Royal Navy know what wonderful service fishermen have given.
  1216
  Before leaving that point, may I ask whether the Government have made any special provision in the Festival of Britain to show what the fishermen do and what are their difficulties? Have they their right place in this Exhibition? The fishermen of this country provide not only a wonderful service in time of war but are the lifeblood of this country in peace, and any of us who know the duties carried out by coxswains and crews in the lifeboat services know what a vital part they play, quite apart from fishing. Enough has been said about their part in war to make it unnecessary for me to say anything further.
  In conclusion, I am sure that many hon. Members in going the rounds of their constituency socials have listened to the local celebrity, after the master of ceremonies has said, " Mr. So-and-so will now render ' The Fishermen of England.' " The last time I heard it, I was struck by these words:
  " And when at night you safely lie
  In blankets snug and warm.
  The fishermen of England
  Are riding out the storm."
  Let us hope that all of us on all sides of the Committee will do our utmost to see that these men really do ride out the storm.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: It is my pleasure today to congratulate the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Howard) on delivering his maiden speech. I understand that he has already served the public well as mayor of the City of Westminster and that he also served his country in the recent war. Now, he is an hon. Member of the House of Commons and has delivered a speech which we all enjoyed. I hope that we shall hear from him many times in the future. I venture, therefore, to offer him a welcome to the House.
  Turning from that pleasant aspect to the topic which we have been discussing all afternoon, I think that it is evident to everybody in the Committee that Aberdeen stands in a special place in the fishing industry. It is obvious, from what fell from the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby), that that is so. He quoted Trevelyan, the English historian, in praise of English fisherman, but I am sure we all felt that it was a pity that he, a Scot, could not find it

  1217
  in his heart to quote from a Scottish historian in praise of Scots fishermen, who are as noble, as courageous, and of as great service to this great nation and to their own great nation as the English are to theirs.
  There is no doubt that Aberdeen has great advantages and suffers from great disadvantages in the fishing industry. The advantages are that here is an old-established industry which has served the nation well. It has a highly skilled fishing community which is an asset to the nation in peace and war, and whose interests should be preserved. Today, the energies of my right hon. Friends, particularly the Secretary of State for Scotland, will, I am sure, be directed towards protecting that industry, which is now so gravely threatened.
  Among other advantages of the Aberdeen fishing industry is that it is nearer to the deepsea fishing grounds and, therefore, better able to land prime, fresh fish than, possibly, are other fishing ports. The first-class fish can be put on sale in the London markets in a fresh condition if good transport is available. That, in fact, is the rub with regard to the present aspect of this industry. These are, obviously, very great assets for Aberdeen and, indeed, for the whole country, but they are diminished by the disadvantages affecting transport from which she suffers.
  The disadvantage is that Aberdeen is farther away from the great consuming areas of the south. It therefore has a higher ratio of expense for the carriage of coal and other fuel and of gear to Aberdeen from the south. It also has to incur a greater cost for the carriage of fish to the south. These disadvantages were, to a large extent, diminished by the incidence of the flat rate for the carriage of fish so long as that was maintained. That flat rate, let it be realised, was an advantage, not only to Aberdeen, but to the large consuming centres of the south, who were able to get their fish in prime condition and at a moderate cost.
  But the abolition of the flat rate has damaged not only the fishermen in Aberdeen, not only the ship-owners and the fish market porters, but everybody there connected with the industry. It has also damaged the consumers in the south of these Islands, who may be deprived of regular supplies of good, succulent, fresh fish unless something is done to remedy
  1218
  the adverse conditions caused by the abolition of the flat rate.
  To show what these adverse conditions are I should like to quote briefly from a letter which I have received from a very experienced wholesale white fish and herring merchant in Aberdeen, Mr. Clark. Here is what he says about control:
  " Control had a stabilising effect. The housewife knew the price she had to pay for the various varieties; she also knew she was safeguarded by the Ministry of Food. Now she does not know where she is, except that she is at the mercy of the retailer, who can exploit the prices for all varieties and who can withhold the benefit of the cheaper fish. This condition will be most noticeable when landings are in short supply. Prices will rise, and middle and working classes will not be able to buy."
  The result of the abolition of control has been to create chaos in the industry, in the markets, in the shops, and in the homes.
  I should like to quote from another letter, from the Aberdeen Fish Curers' and Merchants' Association, Ltd., who protest against the manner in which the abolition of the flat rate was publicised and the damage which that did to the fishing industry. Here is what they said as recently as 24th April:
  " When fish prices at the coast are ' on the floor' it means that the demand from inland markets and probably in the fishmongers' shops has been more than met. It is thought that if at times like these the Press and the B.B.C. would make a special feature of the fact that fish is cheap it would encourage the housewife to buy more than she usually does.
  Upon decontrol on 14th April, 1950, the Press and the B.B.C. carried on a campaign of informing the public of the fact that fish prices had reached unprecedented heights and the Press advised housewives in a few cases to keep away from the fishmongers, which they did. They failed, however, to inform the public in time that prices had again dropped to unprecedented levels. If they had done so it is the considered opinion of those in the trade that the disaster of the last few days would have been averted. It should be noted that the Press statement by the Secretary of State for Scotland was a very praiseworthy effort to turn the tide.
  Press and B.B.C. statements are often misleading, and it is thought that far more benefit would accrue to all if prior consultation with trade bodies took place before statements are made."
  That indicates the importance of taking into consultation the appropriate trade bodies.

  1219
  To remedy the threatened disaster caused by the abolition of the flat rate, it was at first suggested that the flat rate should be restored. Now, however, an alternative has been suggested, that there should be a subsidy or other assistance to meet the high cost, on the one hand, of the carriage of coal and other fuel to northern fishing centres and, on the other hand, to assist the transport of fish to the south. This request has, I understand, been further diminished to its very minimum by a suggestion that there should be a subsidy of 3d. a stone on fish landed in Aberdeen. That subsidy is arrived at in this way.
  The average rail rate from Aberdeen to Billingsgate is 158s. a ton. The average rate from Hull, Grimsby and Fleetwood is 115s. a ton. The difference is 43s. a ton, or 3d. a stone, which is less than id. per pound. That, I submit to the Committee and to my right hon. Friend the Minister, is a reasonable, practicable and inexpensive way of meeting this difficulty. That subsidy would cost, on the basis of the 1949 landings of fish, no more than £170,000 per annum. I submit that it would be an act of statesmanship to grant a subsidy of this kind. Edmund Burke said:
  " Statesmanship is a disposition to preserve coupled with an ability to improve."
  If ever there was an industry which deserved to be preserved and improved, it is this industry and there is the means of doing it.
  The troubles of this industry are further complicated by the problem of landings of foreign fish, which have been referred to already and about which I will not elaborate beyond giving figures which have not been mentioned. The figures of foreign landings in 1938 compared with 1949 are 1,635,382 cwt. and 3,676,322 cwt. The British catches during the same two years were 20,913,254 cwt. and 20,032,691 cwt., so the foreign landings have more than doubled while British catches are reduced.
  A great many other problems remain to be discussed, but because of the pressure of time, I will not deal with them. The Secretary of State for Scotland, in reply to a Question I asked the other day, showed how appreciative he is of the problems which threaten this industry.
  1220
  He said that the Scottish Council (Development and Industry), at his request, would appoint a working party to consider improvements in the industry. That is welcome news. I am sure the Committee will feel glad that my right hon. Friend has so keen an appreciation of the problems of the industry, and is taking such active steps to see that they are dealt with adequately.
  7.42 p.m.
  Mr. Grimond: I am sure that after the last week or two the Government can be under no misapprehension about the very grave concern felt all round our coasts in all branches of the fishing industry. From the records of share fishermen which I have examined it seems that in many boats the men are not now earning what in most industries would be regarded as a decent minimum wage. In my own constituency, to add insult to injury, we not only have our troubles from fish, but are now suffering from a surfeit of whales. I am not sure whether whales are in order in this Debate, but I ask the Secretary of State if in one capacity or other he can get rid of them as soon as possible.
  Commander Pursey: Put salt on their tails.
  Mr. GrimondOn the question of controls the ground has been fully covered. I think the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) made a good point when he said that most of us are in favour of planning, but it has to be good planning. It does not seem so clear at the moment that there is good planning in the fishing industry. It does not seem good planning for inshore fishermen to take up large loans, which they have to repay over 20 years, when, with very little or no notice, the flat rate is removed and this swingeing increase on petrol and rail charges is added. That will not only add to the cost of the transport of fish but the price of everything which the fisherman has to buy. I would ask the Secretary of State if he can persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a concession to fishermen on petrol and, also, again to consider some such scheme as has been propounded for Aberdeen, which would allow a reduction of freight charges. I am glad to hear that his Committee are still considering what steps to take to reduce the high costs of gear.

  1221
  The forthcoming herring season is of vital importance to the whole fishing industry. If the inshore fishermen have a bad season, and do not have a reasonable return after the last bad season and the difficult winter, they will be hit very hard. Concern must be felt about the prices we hear they are to get for herring. I urge on the Secretary of State to continue his efforts to find markets for herring. I believe it will be increasingly difficult to find a market on anything like a large scale for salt herring, but, if the right hon. Gentleman, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) suggested, can persuade some European countries to take some of the salt herring so much the better.
  I think the industry has to depend on good quality kippers—and I emphasise good quality—and on fresh and sharp frozen herring. The question of quick freezing has been raised. In Shetland, we are lucky to have a quick freezing plant and there is no question that it is an enormous asset to the industry in the Shetland Islands. We want an extension of quick-freezing plants and also of refrigeration ships. I am told we do not possess any small ships of this kind. I suggest that there may also be a further outlet for herring not in the form of fish manure, but for edible oil.
  There has been a suggestion that the Herring Board may be encouraging the closing of small ports. I hope that if that is so the Secretary of State will do his best to discourage that practice. So far from closing small ports I would like an investigation into the possible opening of such ports as Stronsay and Stromness. On the grounds near.Stronsay a very high quality herring is obtained. We have to remember that the herring industry is not only concerned with giving us valuable food, but, as has been emphasised, with breeding most valuable men. Without them we would have found ourselves in a very serious state in the two world wars. I ask the Secretary of State to take the human element into consideration, and, if possible, to keep the small communities alive.
  On the question of over-fishing I feel that possibly we have been disingenuous. It is a very slippery question, and it is not entirely true to say that the fault is over-fishing by foreign trawlers. It all depends on the fisherman. If one is
  1222
  using a seine net one wants the trawler kept out and if one is using a line one wants the trawler and the seine-netter kept out. If one is a British trawler one wants the foreign trawler kept off. But we shall very quickly overfish our inshore waters unless some steps are taken. I do not think we will ever have great quantities of line fishing again. We could not again get the women in their hundreds to bait the lines as they used to do.
  We must research into the situation to see whether we are destroying the spawn and to see where the inshore fish come from; do they breed out in the sea, or on grounds near the shore? How much damage does seine netting do? We want an international agreement. We may find that we need to have a sort of close season. I suggest, even, that at weekends it would be of value if Scottish fishermen would keep off the sea. Trawling is a difficult subject—I speak for an area interested in seine netting and inshore fishing. We do not like to see the trawler, but, on the whole, they keep out pretty well. Some poach, but. generally, they keep out.
  We would like to see the three-mile limit drawn round the heads of the land to keep them out of the voes and the lochs in order to allow people to fish in them with seine-net and line. I would like to see new fishery cruisers, not the old big vessels which can do only eight knots, and which everyone can see coming days before they arrive, but some small, fast fishing vessels which could enforce the law. Finally, some additional protection might be given to the crofter line fisherman, where he still exists. Seine net boats might be kept out of those small areas where the crofter still adds to his livelihood by line fishing close in shore.
  7.51 p.m.
  Mr. W. Hudson: I have taken the opportunity of addressing the Committee on this important matter because the fishing industry plays such an important part in the lives of those whom I am privileged to represent in this House. I am speaking in this Chamber for the first time, and for that reason I ask for, and I am sure I shall be shown, the courtesy and the indulgence which is the tradition and the habit of right hon. and hon. Members on such an occasion.

  1223
  The livelihood and well being of many who live in Kingston-upon-Hull, and not a few in North Hull, depend upon the prosperity of the fishing industry. I refer, of course, to the distant water fishing industry and not to inshore fishing, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) has spoken so effectively today.
  Hull may quite properly claim to be the largest fishing port in the world. The number of trawlers in the Hull fleet roughly equals, and in fact slightly exceeds, the total of such vessels—distant water vessels—plying from the rest of the ports in the country put together, not excluding our distinguished rival, Grimsby. To repair the serious depredations of the war, Hull owners have built a fleet of modern vessels equipped with every possible device for speedy and economical fishing, and with first-class accommodation for their crews. In 1949 the total landings of sea fish in Hull were nearly 4 million kits or 5 million cwts. These facts show that the livelihood of owners and crews alike, many thousands of them, depends on the demand for fish as an item of food.
  It is not generally realised that, apart from the minimum basic wage varying from £5 15s. to £7 5s. per week, the earnings of principal ratings include a poundage upon the gross value of the catch. Until recently this has formed a large part, in fact the major part, of their remuneration. Skippers and mates are remunerated entirely by a share in the proceeds. As has already been clearly stated, the demand has dropped to such an extent that the earnings of crews have been seriously reduced, while owners have been faced with serious losses.
  My main purpose in speaking tonight is to draw attention to one important reason for this lack of demand and to suggest a means whereby demand may be stimulated. Demand depends upon two main factors. One of these is household consumption, and, as has been shown, fish is now competing with foods which are heavily subsidised, and therefore is at a disadvantage.
  The second point to which I wish to draw attention is that the demand depends mainly on the needs of the fish friers who provide that very humble but very popular dish of fish and chips. I make
  1224
  no apology for dwelling on that topic in this Chamber tonight because I would point out that only last night a most distinguished woman, a lady of high rank, left her West End hotel to enjoy a dish of fish and chips in Paddington.
  Merchants estimate that 85 per cent. of the Hull catch, certainly of cod, goes to the friers, whose costs of production have greatly increased. For reasons that are well known, the cost of gas and electricity is higher than ever before, and the principal raw material, frying oil, is costing from four to six times as much as in 1939. I do not wish to weary the House with figures, but I must give two or three examples of that. Best pure groundnut oil could be bought by the friers prior to the war at from 24s. to 26s. per cwt., and cotton seed oil for 21s. a cwt., while today the friers are having to pay for palm kernel oil, a much inferior product, 126s. 6d. per cwt. The take-up of the allocations is below 100 per cent., which is an indication of lack of demand.
  I do not wish to appear controversial on this occasion but I wish to ask why it is that this oil, which is purchased and sold by the Ministry of Food, is so very dear? At the peak period of the war the highest price that had to be paid for it was 64s. 6d. per cwt. Now it is nearly twice that price. It has been suggested that the Ministry of Food are making a considerable profit out of these deals in oil and other fats; only last night the figure of £9 million for 1949 was suggested to me. There may be some quite proper explanation of this point. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply to the Debate will be able to throw some light on the matter and possibly suggest some means of reducing these costs and so stimulating demand. In taking this line of approach, I am not so much advocating the cause of the fish frier, although that is of great importance. I believe that the revival and development of the fish frier's trade is the best and quickest means of increasing demand to the benefit of all who are engaged in this hazardous occupation.
  I realise that a maiden speech must be brief, and I intend mine to be so. I have purposely refrained from mentioning such topics as the part played by the fishing fleets during the war or the unregulated landings of foreign-caught fish, to which my hon. Friend the Member for

  1225
  East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) has referred. But there is one point in that connection which I do not think has been mentioned and upon which I feel I must touch. It is that Western Germany recently prohibited imports of fish, as her own trawlers could provide the whole of her needs. That market is now closed to the Icelandic trawlers, and that is one reason why the Icelandic fishing vessels are concentrating upon our market. It seems to me a strange and disturbing fact that Germany, with a relatively short coastline, has taken this course, while we, a maritime nation, have no regulation of landings. I respectfully invite the attention of the Committee to that point.
  7.59 p.m.
  Mr. Donnelly: I am really the last person in this Committee to whom it should fall to congratulate the hon. Member for Hull, North (Mr. W. Hudson) because I came to this House myself only a few weeks ago. I know exactly how the hon. Member must have felt, and I very much admired the great confidence with which he spoke. I wish that I had had the same measure of confidence when I was going through that same ordeal.
  I am glad to have been called if only so that I can remind the Committee that there is a fishing industry in Wales as well as in other parts of the British Isles, and bring the discussion of this question back to the West Country again. My concern is with the white fishing industry, which has quite different problems from those of hon. Gentlemen north of the Border, who are concerned with the herring industry.
  I wish at the very beginning to clear up one great misconception which seems to exist in the minds of many hon. Members and in the country regarding the state of our fishing industry at the end of the war. Many people felt that the fishing industry did very well towards the end of the war, and for a period following the war, and that it is quite reasonable to expect they might work off some of their fat now and go through a lean period. It is perfectly true that some trawler owners did do very well, not because of the high prices being paid for fish, but because they were able to have a very large turnover at a time when very few trawlers were fishing the grounds; and when the fishing grounds were well stocked. The high
  1226
  profits they made were due to the high turnover rather than to the high price of fish.
  It is as I say perfectly true that in 1945 there was a limited number of trawlers fishing and they were able to bring home very large catches. In 1946, however, we begin to see a different picture; and in 1947, when the weather was extremely bad at the beginning of the year, the fishing industry went through a difficult period. There was a revival in 1948, but a recession set in again in 1949, and we are in a position today where everyone in this Committee is agreed that the fishing industry is facing a very difficult situation indeed.
  Why has the fishing industry reached serious and critical condition? The first and basic reason is that, while the price of fish has gone up at the port by something like two and a half times compared with the price paid before the war, the cost of the trawlers and of keeping them at sea—as was stated by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby)—has gone up by between three and five times. The hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) said that it was our duty to state how each one of us found the position in our particular area, and we find it has gone up at least five times so far as the cost of keeping trawlers at sea is concerned. It is that great increase in the costs of the industry compared with the increase in the price of the fish landed, which is the first great problem facing the fishing industry.
  Another great problem is that of the marketing of fish. We find a situation today in which the fishing industry, so far as its catching side is concerned, is in the hands of one Government Department, but from the moment the catch comes on shore it is under the control of another Government Department. I ask for the maximum co-operation between the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Ministry of Food in this respect. There is a feeling, which I personally do not share and which I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will repudiate, that the Ministry of Food have done very well by the people on the shore, but the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries have not been able to help the men at sea so much. I hope that matter will be cleared up, and that the Government will be able to say that they have

  1227
  been able to help the fishermen to an equal extent. With very great diffidence, and at the risk of being told that I am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, I make one or two suggestions, as I think it is important in a discussion of this kind that we should pool our suggestions so that the maximum number of constructive proposals may emerge. My hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans) suggested a white fish commission. Perhaps I might support what he said and suggest the same kind of thing, whether it is a white fish commission, or an industry board. I hope the Government will go into the suggestion and, if they do decide to act upon it, that sufficient power and teeth will be provided so that the job may be done adequately and successfully. This is no time for half-measures so far as the fishing industry is concerned.
  There is a great opportunity in the fishing industry so far as research is concerned, and such a body might be able to help in this matter. Or if not, perhaps the question of research in the fishing industry might be dealt with by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research; and work in the way of chartering new vessels and other technical research might be undertaken, including the seeking of new fishing grounds and so on. I would suggest that some action might be taken with regard to the financing of the industry on similar lines to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, because that is a great problem. I do not see any reason why the fishing industry should be any less trustworthy than farmers or, for that matter, film producers.
  There is also the question of foreign landings. I do not share the alarm and fears expressed by hon. Members opposite regarding the importation of foreign fish. Perhaps that is because I am at heart a Free Trader. All we ask is to be able to compete on fair terms with the fish which comes in from abroad; that it should have exactly the same marketing process as the fish landed at our own ports, and that the Ministry of Food do not import fish from abroad and make a loss on it, whilst we are bringing fish into our own ports and standing the loss in the industry itself. A good deal of thought must be given
  1228
  to the fact that much of the fish imported from abroad is caught by people not enjoying conditions as good as those in our own industry. Attention should be given to what might be called " black fish " being imported into this country.
  I join with hon. Members who suggest the removal of restrictions on the sale of fish courses in restaurants and canteens. Even though this is only a small matter, and can affect the sale of fish in this country only to a small extent, it is important, and anything which encourages the marketing of fish is something which should be pressed forward as speedily as possible.
  The Government ought to give a lead in educating the public to appreciate the great value of fish as a food. It needs more than just an " eat more fish " campaign. The public should be educated in the right way of cooking fish and making it attractive. They should be asked to realise that fish is every bit as valuable a commodity as many of the other things publicised by Government advertising in the national Press. In that respect it might also help and be a valuable guide to housewives if publicity were given to the price paid for fish landed at the ports in terms which the housewife can follow—say in pence per pound. Such terms as " kits " and " stones " and so on, means little to the housewife. But if the price were expressed in pence per pound, she would be able to see and appreciate the difference between the price paid to the trawlermen and the price paid over the counter in fishmongers' shops.
  With regard to marketing policy, it seems to me that the ultimate long-term solution to the problems facing the fishing industry cannot be resolved until fish is treated as a non-perishable foodstuff. Quick-freezing, as has already been pointed out by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), is of great assistance to the fishing industry. I hope the Government will be able to press forward with the provision of quick-freezing plants in our ports. The problem facing the fishing industry today seems to me to be very similar to the problem which faced the retail meat trade in the last century. Once we began to have imported meat in this country, we got used to the idea of frozen meat; and the butcher, instead of relying upon the

  1229
  slaughterhouse for meat and having to market it very quickly, was able to ring up and order the meat when he wanted it. We shall never arrive at a solution of the problem of the fishing industry until we are able to regard fish as a nonperishable in the same way as we regard meat today.
  I should like to join in the appeal made by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire when he urged the industry to speak with one voice. I hope the Government will give them a lead and assistance, because it is the dissensions and hesitations in the fishing industry which are apparently responsible for many problems facing it today. This is an ideal example of the failure of the system advocated by the party opposite and to which the whole country would return if they were returned to power.
  While labour conditions in the industry are satisfactory on the whole, some thought might he given by the two sides of the industry to some provision which would give more security and less surtax to skippers and mates. It is a great tragedy to see these men, who have made big money, sitting on the walls in fishing ports, down and out and facing difficult days.
  Inshore fishing has been dealt with in considerable detail already by hon. Members. Inshore fishermen will never be able to compete on prices with deep-sea fishers; but they have something which the trawler owners and the trawling industry have not. They are able to bring their fish very much more quickly ashore and to market it in much better condition. There will always be a demand for the high-quality fish that the inshore fishermen can bring in. In this respect, too, quick-freezing is of considerable value. Anyone who has sampled quick-frozen fish will agree that it is a considerable delicacy. I understand that a number of West End firms, like Fortnum and Masons, sell very large quantities of it. It is something which could be extended very widely, with considerable benefit to the industry as a whole.
  I end with one request to the right hon. Gentleman and, with great diffidence, utter a warning to this Committee and to the country as a whole. As many hon. Members have said in this Debate, there has been a wide campaign by a
  1230
  number of national newspapers urging the housewife not to pay more for fish in the shops. The B.B.C. have led a campaign of that nature as well. The " Daily Mirror," which possesses the largest circulation of any newspaper in the country and is probably read by more housewives than any other paper, has played a leading part in the campaign.
  Mr. Boothby: The " Daily Mirror ' does not possess the largest circulation. The paper with the largest circulation is the " News of the World."
  Mr. Donnelly: I have read with great interest and entertainment the paper to which the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire is such a distinguished contributor and have no desire to detract from it. The largest circulation of any daily newspaper in the country would be a more accurate description of the circulation of the " Daily Mirror." I saw on Friday, 21st April—and it is typical of a great number of pronouncements in this paper—an injunction in an editorial headed " The Woman is the Boss." There is a sentence which is very damaging indeed. It says:
  " The controlled prices have proved enough to earn the industry's living, and it would be more than fishy if they were not enough now."
  I should like the Minister, in replying to the Debate, to confirm or deny whether it is a fact that considerable subsidies were paid to the near-water fishing industry, because the controlled price was not enough to keep the industry going? Is it not true that the Government paid that subsidy rather than pass on the higher price of fish to the shops? Is not that a proof that the controlled price was not adequate? Is it not misleading to the housewife and damaging to the fishing industry if the housewife is urged to keep down the price below the economic level? The ultimate effect of such a campaign would be profoundly detrimental to one of the great basic and traditional industries of these islands.
  The catching of fish is not a pleasant, easy or safe occupation. We had a salutary reminder of that in a Question I asked in the House yesterday, referring to the loss, with all hands, of a trawler from the port of Milford Haven. It is a hazardous, dangerous and dirty industry, and of supreme importance and value to

  1231
  the people of these islands in time of war. I hope the Government will not neglect the fishermen in time of peace.
  8.15 p.m.
  Captain Orr: I ask the usual courtesy and indulgence of this Committe, this being the first time I have the honour of addressing it. I will do my best to stick to the rules and not indulge in anything too fractious or contentious. If I possibly can, I will try to prevent my blood from boiling, like that of my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby). As a possible inducement to hon. Members to treat me with kindness, I offer them an invitation to come to visit Northern Ireland.
  It would not be a bad idea if hon. Members could say that, before they died or went into political oblivion, they had seen the leading and most loyal part of the United Kingdom. If any hon. Member cared to come with me I would take him round the Mountains of Mourne. It is possible that some hon. Members might have heard of the Mountains of Mourne. I know that the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) has heard of them. He fought that constituency before I did. He was not successful. I nearly lost my deposit, having only a 16,000 majority, which is not considered a very large majority in Ulster now.
  I would take such an hon. Member along the coast between the Mountains of Mourne and the sea. There he would find a number of fishing villages. All the way along the County Down coast there are villages where live a sturdy, independent race of people who have made their living from the sea as their fathers did before them. He would find that they have a very particular and urgent problem at the present time. Sometimes, if one examines a particular case, it throws light upon the difficulties of a whole industry.
  We have a certain skipper-owned boat. One man owns a single boat and he has a crew of, say, six. He reckons, over a season, to make approximately £200 a week. That is not an under-estimate of the gross takings while controlled prices were in force. It is interesting to discover what happens to that £200. He has small expenses amounting to some £40. They are: fuel oil, £15; lubricating oil, £3 10s.; groceries, £6; National
  1232
  Insurance stamps, £3 4s. 7d.; harbour dues, £1 13s. 4d.; insurance of boat, £6; wireless hire and maintenance, £1 15s., and ice for approximately £3. I am not a good mathematician, but I think that comes to £43 2s. 11d. If we take a round figure of £40, he is left with £160 out of his £200. He has now got to divide that £160 into two. He has got to give £80 to his crew to divide between seven of them, which means that they get £11 8s. 6d. apiece. Of his £80 left, as it happens in Northern Ireland, the owner has got to send three-fifths to the Ministry og Commerce for Northern Ireland to pay off a loan which he had to help him build the boat in 1940.
  He is left with two-fifths of £80, and I make that come to £32. Out of that sum he has got to buy rope and net and also keep his boat repaired. I am sure my hon. Friends the Members for East Aberdeenshire and Banff (Mr. Duthie) will bear me out when I say that rope for one of these boats—measuring 60 to 65 feet over all—costs about £20 per week. In 1945 it cost only about £10; £20 from £32 leave £12, out of which the man has got to pay for repairs and net. A seine net in 1945, if made up locally, cost about £32. It now costs approximately £66, and, as will be known by hon. Members who are familiar with inshore fishing, a seine net can last five or six months or only five or six hours.
  No man can carry on in those conditions, and this is a very serious problem. I imagine that the same thing applies along the coast of Scotland, but it certainly is a very serious problem in Northern Ireland. If the Government are really interested in preserving this small inshore fishing industry, some method of fixing a ceiling to these prices must be found, because they cannot be allowed to go on rising; if they do, these men will be driven off the sea altogether.
  The other end of the business should also be examined, and we in Northern Ireland are particularly interested, because 80 per cent. of the catch of one typical skipper in County Down comes to London. I am told that a merchant pays 5s. for a six-stone box in freight. Something should be worked out—I cannot suggest anything constructive—to equalise the freight charges. One cannot argue that proposition purely for fish alone; the principle of equalising freight charges

  1233
  cannot be wrong because if one puts a letter in an envelope and posts it, it costs 21d, whether it is sent to Piccadilly Circus or Belfast. The principle cannot be wrong. It is one of the advantages, of which there are very few, of having a nationalised service that something of that sort can be done. With the British railways under public control, we might get some advantage out of them if they could arrange for the freight costs not only of fish but of all sorts of other commodities to be evened out in order to assist Scotland and Northern Ireland.
  I do not wish to detain the Committee too long. I would only say that it does not appear to me to be unreasonable to argue that a white fish marketing board should be set up. I think that such a board could help to control the imports of foreign fish, and I agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire that some control over the import of foreign fish is necessary. Such a board would have the confidence of the industry and could negotiate with the Government.
  It is surely not too contentious to ask whether the Government's policy is one of cheap fish from anywhere at any price, or whether the Government are genuinely interested in preserving this industry. If they are so interested, we are entitled to inquire what the Government are going to do about the cost of gear, the special freight problems of distant areas such as Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the restrictions of landings of foreign fish. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will be able to make some proposal in this regard. The situation is genuinely very serious. If these fine independent island folk are not to be driven off the seas which their ancestors have fished for generations, something must be done, and something must be done soon.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. J. J. Robertson: It is always a great pleasure to have the honour of congratulating a maiden speaker. On this occasion it is an even greater pleasure because the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) managed to include in his maiden speech an invitation to those of us who are weary of the work in this House to breathe some of the invigorating air of Northern Ireland and go to the foothills of the mountains of Mourne.
  1234
  The hon. Member displayed a considerable knowledge of the fishing industry. and he also managed to convey to us the attractions of the constituency which he represents. I trust that we shall be able to hear from him on future occasions. as I am sure we shall all benefit from listening to such speeches.
  I am aware that there are many Members still very anxious to take part in this very important Debate. It is an extremely important Debate, and I am gratified to know that so many hon. Members are so keen to speak. It would be a sad thought if any of us on these benches were to think for a moment that the fishing industry was to suffer from neglect and be cast aside in the way that it was cast aside during the years between the wars.
  Mr. Boothby indicated assent.
  Mr. Robertson: I am glad to note that the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) nods his approval to that assertion. I presume that he will not contradict me when I say that of all the industries in this country, perhaps the fishing industry has been the most neglected during the 20 years between the wars. Hon. Members opposite are really a little belated in now making proposals which, if they had been carried out in the years between the wars, would have put the fishing industry in an absolutely strong and prosperous position. It is not too late, however, for hon. Members opposite to be converted to the idea of the introduction of some plan for the fishing industry.
  I have thought that the general tone of the Debate has, perhaps, carried over post-election speeches or introduced pre-election speeches, because during the whole of the 20 years between the wars the party opposite did very little for the fishing industry. I speak against the background of rather sad memories of the conditions in the fishing industry in the years immediately after the First World War. I was born in a fishing community and spent my early days in the industry, and long before I had reached manhood I was earning my living on the old-type fishing boats. I, therefore, claim that I have a very considerable knowledge of the plight through which the industry passed in the years following the 1914-18 war. I learned about fishing the hard

  1235
  way. Like many of my contemporaries I came out of that war hoping to find a very good living in the industry, but we were very sadly disillusioned because the industry was soon in a perilous state.
  I remember little coastal towns of Scotland, now perhaps hardly noticeable on the map, where there was a thriving industry—villages of independent and God-fearing people who were earning a very hard, honest living from the seas and who were very happy. The plight of the fishing industry—and it was a very important industry in those days, as it is now—was the direct result of the neglect of the party opposite in the years when so much could have been done for the fishermen. I am very anxious that this Government, or any other Government of the future, shall not fall into the same errors as the Governments in the years between the wars.
  In view of the fact that many other hon. Members wish to speak in the Debate, I shall be brief, but I must say that it would be a pity if we merely regarded this industry as something which is of service only during peace time for the production of food, and not as something which is also related to the very important question of the defence of the nation in war. After all, the fishing industry has played a magnificient part in the defence of this country during the last two wars. In the last war there were just over 8,000 fishermen engaged in the Fighting Services, and, in addition to that, about 2,000 were engaged in the Merchant Service. I think that was no mean contribution, in skill and sea knowledge, to the country's sea power at a time when we were in desperate need of that power. If we desert the industry we may again run into the danger of losing this reservoir of skilled sea manpower.
  Many of our fishermen were deprived of the opportunity of earning a good living in the fishing industry and they went to the big cities to find some less arduous and more secure employment. Indeed, many families left Scotland, in particular, and went to the Dominions, where they settled down and became thriving fishing communities. I believe that during those years between the wars we forgot that we lived on an island and
  1236
  we dispensed with the sea skill and resourcefulness of those men who have twice during our time so valiantly defended our shores against the threat of the enemy.
  I think it would have been at least some salve to the conscience of the party opposite could they have claimed in this Debate that under successive Conservative Governments between the wars the fishing industry had received half the assistance during that period which has been rendered by the Labour Government since 1945. But the roofless houses, the derelict fishing yards, and the neglected coastal villages and towns are the grim answer on the position of the fishing industry between the wars.
  I should like during the few minutes left to me to say, further, that despite the past struggles of the industry for existence during those lean years of the 'thirties the fishing industry is still one of the most important and largest industries in Scotland. From the waters around the shores of Scotland fishermen produce about a third of the total landings in the United Kingdom. What this means in terms of the economy of our country can be shown in figures. Its value is equal to £2 5s. 7d. per head of the population of Scotland, as compared with 14s. 5d. per head of the population in England and Wales. It will be seen, therefore, that the fishing industry in Scotland is a vitally important and tremendously big factor in the whole economy of Scotland. In most cases, the fishing industry of Scotland is carried on by small boats, very often as family concerns. Over 60 per cent. of the herring catch landed in the United Kingdom since the war was landed in Scottish ports. In the period between January and September of 1948 about 250,000 tons of fish, which realised just over £10 million, was landed in Scotland.
  This, I think, has been made possible very largely because of the assistance which the Government, since the end of the last war, have rendered to the fishing industry, especially in the acquiring of new boats, and by assuming responsibility for marketing, in so far as the herring industry is concerned. The Herring Industry Board has new powers under the 1948 Act. The Board has, I think, tackled its job with vigour and considerable success. The first great problem was

  1237
  to ensure that in future there would not be any more dumping of edible fish—that heartbreaking operation which was such a feature of the period between the wars. Something which I myself will never forget was the experience of landing 100 crans of good herring and then finding that we had to go back to dump them in the sea again.
  The Herring Industry Board has prevented that happening since it has been in existence, and it has been achieved largely by the policy of developing new outlets for herring catches, which make it less dependent on exports. In this field of Government enterprise the Board are capable of doing a good job in the development of oil and meal production, and I trust that will be done to a greater extent in the future. Apart from the serious prevailing cost of running the dual purpose boats and the high cost of gear, I think that today the herring fishing industry is in a better position than it ever was, certainly in the inter-war period, because there is today an organisation for the establishment of guaranteed prices and for marketing the catches.
  On the white fish side of the industry, in my considered view—and I am glad to note that almost every speaker, on both sides of the Committee, has made this same plea—unless the Government are able to extend to the white fish section the same form of assistance and management that has been given to the Herring Industry Board we shall be back to where we were in the years between the two world wars. Clearly, this nation cannot afford to allow such an important food producing industry to be regarded as other than of vital importance to our island economy. I therefore suggest to the Government that the first, and perhaps the most urgent, need is the setting up of a white fish board. I know that has been said by almost every speaker, and I am glad to agree with the views thus expressed so widely in this Debate.
  I would not attempt to outline in detail the functions of such a board, other than to say that, obviously, its first function should be the organising of the industry in such a way that the present wasteful extravagance between primary producer and consumer should be overcome and eliminated. That is probably the greatest burden the industry has to bear. Second, it is most important that those appointed
  1238
  to the board should have personal experience of this very intricate and perhaps most complex of all industries. Third, the board should have fairly wide powers; it should be responsible to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, and should be concerned mainly with production rather than with marketing. It may be that the Ministry of Food should under take the marketing side. Fourth, the board should have power to acquire and run long-range trawlers equipped with modern processing plant. Finally, I most earnestly urge the Government to regard the fishing fleet as an integral part of our defence system.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. Osborne: I promise to be brief and I hope I shall speak to the point. I think it would be a strange thing if fishing were to be discussed in this Committee without a reference from Grimsby which is the primary fishing port in the country. I want to direct my remarks first to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, because I want him to give me an answer.
  About six weeks ago, representatives of the fishing industry interviewed the Director of Animal Feedingstuffs with regard to the de-control of fish that goes to the fishmeal factories, and no promise could be obtained—that de-control would be exercised for that fish. I want to know why? Twenty-five per cent., roughly, of the total catch for this country—I am not talking about the few herring about which we have heard so much today—goes to the fishmeal factories. The Government say that they have decontrolled the industry. They have not. They have decontrolled only 75 per cent. of the industry. The other 25 per cent. which goes to the fishmeal factories is still controlled at a price less than the normal market price.
  If the industry is to recover sufficiently to face the squalls which lie ahead, the 25 per cent. which now goes to the fishmeal factories must also be decontrolled. My friends estimate that for the past year it would have given the industry something like an extra £500,000 if the decontrol which has been allowed in regard to the fish that goes to the ordinary market had also been allowed for the fish that goes for fishmeal. I want to know from the Minister why the Director of Animal Feedingstuffs refused to give an answer.

  1239
  Secondly, speaking as many hon. Members have done for their constituencies, and I am speaking for the biggest fishing port in the country—[Laughter.] Hon. Members need not laugh because that is quite true—I am asked to say that with regard to the flat rate of transport, the Grimsby section of the trade are entirely opposed to its reimposition. It is calculated that of the white fish which is brought into this country something like 73 per cent. comes into the two Humber ports. The flat rate last year cost Hull and Grimsby about £1½ million more than they would have had to pay for normal economic transport charges. The people of the Humber are tired of subsidising Scottish fish.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: It is not true.
  Mr. Osborne: They are tired of subsidising Scottish fish coming into English ports to compete with our own fish. I have been asked by my constituents to make that point of view known. They feel very strongly that the flat rate in any circumstances ought not to be brought back.
  My third point is that at the present time in Grimsby there are 39 trawlers laid up. The industry is faced with what some of its members consider disaster, and certainly with considerable unemployment. If any plea will move hon. Members opposite, I am sure that one will, and quite rightly so. What they complained about is that, while we have trawlers unemployed—and the number is going to be added to—the Government in the last 18 months have allowed the Government of Iceland to come to the City of London and borrow Eli million with which they have built, or are building, 10 absolutely up-to-date trawlers with the money we are providing for them, in order that their fish may come into our market and compete with the fish that we catch.
  The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. Thomas Williams): To whom is the hon. Member referring when he says that " we " are providing the money?
  Mr. Osborne: I was coming to that. In the normal prospectus issued in July, 1949, it states that the
  "consent of His Majesty's Treasury has been obtained to this issue."
  1240
  It would not have been allowed without that permission. The Government cannot get away from the fact that they gave permission for this to happen. Furthermore, according to this prospectus, vetted and passed by the Capital Issues Committee, which can act only with the sanction of the Treasury, there is also this provision:
  "The Government of Iceland further undertake to procure that the sterling proceeds of the catches of these 10 trawlers shall be surrendered for the yearly servicing of this debt."
  The Government allowed the Icelandic Government to borrow money in this country and to have ships built with a priority over English ships so that their catches may be sold in English markets in competition with our own catches. I have been asked to protest against this. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the importations of fish from Iceland before the war were in the nature of 500,000 cwts., whereas last year the figure was no less than 2,300,000 cwts.
  This is allowed by a Government that prides itself on having cured the problem of unemployment, but the Government will not cure unemployment in Grimsby in this way. This prospectus says that the export of Icelandic fish to this country last year was to the value of £4,400,000, to which there is a footnote to depress still further those interested in the fishing industry.
  "In addition to the above, the British Government in 1948 bought fish for Germany to the value of ill million."
  My constituency says that instead of this Socialist Government giving this high priority to Iceland, to borrow money and have ships built in our shipyards, it would have been much better to have stopped the importation of so much foreign fish and to have given our people a fairer chance. The Secretary of State for Scotland might say to me that this Icelandic position is part of the over-all American plan against Communism and, therefore, it has got to be fitted in; we are only a pawn in a much bigger field. It may be so, but if it is, we have to explain to our people at home that they are being sacrificed.
  I have here a statement from Mr. Carol Ross, one of the leading trawler owners in Grimsby. When speaking to the

  1241
  Chamber of Commerce annual meeting on 31st March last, he said:
  " Imports from Iceland are five times what they were before the war_ The fishing industry "
  speaking for Grimsby again—
  " is in for a major crisis unless something is done about imports very quickly. The general public of this country was invited, with the blessing of this present Government, to subscribe £1,250,000 for the building of a further 10 vessels."
  I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will listen to this, because some of them doubted what I said before:
  " You can imagine how one feels, as I did a fortnight ago, when one learned that a licence for £25,000 had been turned down."
  The Government's representatives recently turned down the application by a Grimsby firm for a licence to build a trawler, and not so much earlier they issued a licence for 10 trawlers to be built for the Icelanders. We think this policy is wrong and that it ought to be altered. We hope the Government, on second thoughts, will think so, too. I hope that what I have been saying has been material and to the point.
  Commander Pursey: The hon. Gentleman has got the story wrong.
  Mr. Osborne: Mr. Carol Ross finished up by saying:
  " When they ask us "
  " they " being His Majesty's Govern-ment
  " about buying Icelandic fish, we advised them to buy none, or very little. They completely ignored the advice and bought twice as much as they had been buying previously. They were left with some for which they paid 13s. 6d., and which they are now offering back to the trade at 7s."
  If the Government are proud of the way they have handled the industry in recent years, the points I have advanced will take a lot of explaining.
  8.58 p.m.
  Mrs. Castle: The hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) said that it would be most unfortunate if a fishing Debate took place in this Committee and the voice of Grimsby was not heard. It would be equally unfortunate if a Debate on fishing took place in this Committee and the voice of the consumer was not heard. I have sat patiently most of the afternoon listening to one fishing port after another putting
  1242
  forward its point of view, and I have been emboldened to intervene very briefly to put the point of view of what is rather important to the fishing industry as a whole, namely, that of the receiving end of the business.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) is not in his place, because in the very short time at my disposal I wanted to address the major part of my remarks to his speech. I have witnessed this afternoon the most remarkable transformation scene on his part that has ever been seen outside a pantomime. At 3.45 p.m. in the House today we had a little rumpus, and the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire joined in the howls of hon. Members opposite and the expressions of righteous indignation when the Minister of Transport said he had decided to make it possible for the British Transport Commission to cover the cost of production of our British railway services. Hon. Gentlemen opposite were staggered and horrified at the suggestion that it might be necessary to enable the British railways to cover costs which we were shown had risen spectacularly—timber four times, steel about twice and coal three times—and we were told by hon. Members opposite that this was entirely due to the fact that it was a nationalised industry.
  Yet at four o'clock the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire was wringing our hearts with a picture of the fishing industry unable to cover its cost of production, which he said had risen by four or five times, and he demanded that the Government should do something to enable the fishing industry to do so. He even said that he was prepared to demand a direct subvention for the industry from the pockets of the taxpayer. I am in agreement with the demand that the industry should be allowed to cover its costs of production, but I suggest to the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire that what is sauce for the private enterprise goose is sauce for the nationalised gander.
  I listened very attentively to his speech, but I should have been more sympathetic if I had been able to detect any reference in it to where the consumer fitted into the picture. I am glad to see that the hon. Member has returned to his place. I am afraid that I have been " having a go " at him in his absence, but I naturally

  1243
  assumed that he would have sat in this Committee as long as I have done and that he would be in his place when I started my speech. However, I have not finished with him.
  I should have had greater sympathy with his demand for restoring the viability of the fishing industry if he had given any indication of consideration for the point of view of the consumer and any indication of alarm at the cost of living aspect of the problem. Here, again, the contrast between the performance of the hon. Member at four o'clock and his attitude at 3.45 was rather marked, because we are now assured that, although, since decontrol, fish prices have risen a little, it is nothing to worry about because it is a mere 3d. a pound on fish costing 2s. a lb. Yet that is a price increase of 12½ per cent., and at 3.45 the hon. Member was expressing indignation at the request of the Minister of Transport for an increase in railway charges which would mean an addition of a half of one per cent. to the cost of the goods transported.
  Let us be logical and uniform in these matters, and let us express some anxiety about a cost of living increase of 12½ per cent. in the price of some of the commodities which the housewife has to purchase. Even that price increase is a comparatively reasonable situation com, pared with the one which obtained when decontrol was first introduced. Everybody is rightly congratulating the housewife on her achievement in bringing down the cost of fish in the shops by her strike. I also want to congratulate the housewife upon that.
  I would point out, incidentally, two rather interesting facts which emerge from the results of decontrol. I have been very interested to watch the British Press in the last two weeks urging the fishing industry to prove that decontrol will give as square a deal to the consumer as price control used to do, which is a pretty clear indication that price control has been highly efficient and highly effective and in the interests of the housewife, a matter which some of the " set-the-people-free " gentlemen opposite are not always willing to admit.
  The second rather interesting conclusion to be drawn from the results of the last few days is the fact that this buying
  1244
  strike would not have been possible or successful if the general food situation in this country had not been a great deal better than hon. Members opposite have ever been prepared to admit, thus enabling the housewife to dispense with the fish and to manage none the less to provide sufficiently varied menus.
  However, I suggest that de-control has not solved the problem. The Press is suggesting that prices will continue to fall. Personally I think that when the furore has died down, when this has ceased to be a news story, we shall find the opposite happening; that insidiously prices will creep up again, and nobody will pay a great deal of attention to a mere extra penny here or there. After all, it is not a nationalised industry, so price increases in it are not news.
  If, however, the prices still fall, then clearly that does not solve the problem either. After all the trawler owners and producers in this industry have wanted a higher price. They wanted de-control in order to get a higher price, and the reason is because they claim that the same situation is occurring in this industry as has occurred in others, that on the one side the producer is not getting an adequate remuneration for his product, for his efforts and hardships which are greatly appreciated by all hon. Members, and on the other the housewife cannot afford the prices charged. It is no solution to the problem, either of the trawler owner or the housewife, to have a situation in which there is sky-rocketing of prices, a housewives' strike and the fish being left to moulder on the slabs.
  I suggest that it is " Alice Through The Looking Glass " politics to say what advocates of the housewives' strike have been saying, that the only way to keep the price of fish within reasonable limits is for no one to eat the fish. That, carried to extremes, would suggest that our problems would be solved if we did not eat at all. Therefore, in the few minutes left to me I suggest to the Government that they cannot abdicate their responsibility to the housewife by saying to her that the only way she can get her fish at a reasonable price is by not buying at all. How long and how often has the housewife to refuse to buy?
  The difficulty of this situation is that the housewife, if she is to be the person who has to produce reasonable prices for

  1245
  the fish, will always have to refuse to buy just when her need is greatest. It is one of the interesting facets of private enterprise that it is not only an increase in the cost of production which sends up the price, but it is demand which sends up the price as well. It is demand, unrelated to any increase in the cost of production, which sends up prices since, as any housewife knows, there is always a mysterious rise in the price of her fruit, vegetables and fish between Friday night and Saturday morning, because the shopkeeper knows that on Saturday she is buying in for the weekend and has to buy in for it. Unless there is some check and control, the mere existence of the housewife's need sends up the price.
  The housewife is becoming tired of these conspiracies against her purse. She should note some of the remarks of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire and the fact that his remedy for this price problem is to make the rest of her food dearer. The complaint of the hon. Member was that fish is having to compete with subsidised commodities. The housewife should remember when she considers this matter that the hon. Gentleman is a member of the party which is committed to a policy of removing the subsidies. No doubt that would be a very nice Tory remedy for the problems of the fishing industry—to raise the prices of the present subsidised commodities and, therefore, to enable fish to be more competitive, although hardly more acceptable to the housewife.
  Mr. Boothby: The hon. Lady realises what honey are her remarks to me and to my constituents.
  Mrs. Castle: I am only sorry that I have managed to catch your eye so late in the day, Sir Charles, because I am only at the point of developing a speech which contains a full answer to the hon. Member. Being provoked, however, let me remind him that before the war, in the 1930's, when the various inquiries were carried out, fish was already too dear in relation to other foodstuffs, when no food subsidy scheme was operated by the Government.
  Let me remind the hon. Member of what the Duncan Report said in 1936:
  " Fish is in fact uncomfortably near the border-line of dearness. The system of marketing from port to shop appears to ensure the worst of both worlds, for fish is
  1246
  definitely dear when supplies are scarce, and, in many areas, it cannot be called cheap when supplies are plentiful."
  My whole point, therefore, is that the problem of the fishing industry has not been created by the fact that the Government have succeeded so well in keeping our basic foods cheap. The fishing problem goes much deeper than that, and I make this request to the Government tonight. I am not opposing the de-control which has taken place, because there are severe limitations to the value of maximum-prices control. But we cannot leave things just at that and sit back and say that there is nothing else to be done. In effect, we are back where we were in 1936, when every expert on the industry —the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire will know this better than I, because I do not claim to be an expert on the industry—knew that things were not going right, that quality was bad and that prices were too high; and I want the Government, in their future considerations, to look into this question with a view to regulating the industry, in the interests of the producer on the one hand, not forgetting the consumer on the other hand, and on the good Socialist basis of expanding supplies while giving a square deal to the housewife.
  9.13 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Law: I hope that the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) will not take it amiss if I suggest to her that if she could have seen the faces of those on her own Front Bench while she was speaking she would have understood the point of the comment of my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby). I think I can assure her that the speech she has made tonight has, at least, done one thing, and that is to ensure that in every seaport throughout the land the votes of the fishermen and of those dependent upon them will be cast for that party which, in the past, has cared for fishermen
  Commander Pursey: Nonsense.
  Mr. Law: —and which, as the Debate tonight has shown
  Commander Pursey: The right hon. Gentleman does not know the first thing about it.
  Mr. Law: —is the party which has a policy for the future. The Government may have a policy for the future but they have not yet disclosed it, if I may say so with respect to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Commander Pursey: What about the Tory policy between the wars?
  Mr. Law: The Debate has been distinguished by a number of first-rate maiden speeches—by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood), my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Howard), my hon. Friend and colleague the Member for Hull, North (Mr. W. R. Hudson) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). I have no doubt whatever that in their respective divisions their constituents will he congratulating themselves that they are so well represented in this House. It is a particular pleasure to me to pay this tribute to my hon. Friends, because my own maiden speech, which I made 20 years ago, was on the subject of fish. In that 20 years I have learned more about fishing industry than even the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, East (Commander Pursey).
  Commander Pursey: I was born in it; the right hon. Gentleman is only an amateur.
  Mr. Law: I would like to say to my hon. Friends who made their maiden speeches that the speeches they made tonight were infinitely better than the speech I made 20 years ago—
  Commander Pursey: On stinking fish.
  Mr. Law: That is as may be. I think hon. Members will agree that the standard of speaking of new entrants has risen in the most remarkable way in this Parliament. In this Debate there has been general agreement about the importance of the fishing industry, not only as an economic enterprise, to this country. There has been general agreement that it is the duty of the Government to foster the fishing industry today just as, my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire, pointed out, it was the duty of Mr. Secretary Cecil 300 years ago. I think also, in spite of the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East, that there is general agreement that the fishing industry is affected today by one of those periodic
  1248
  crises which have affected it throughout its history.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington said he hoped we could give the fishing industry the same kind of assurance that agriculture now has, and went on to say that that was extremely difficult. All of us who have been connected with the industry for a long time realise that of all industries, the fishing industry is most liable to fluctuations of demand and supply and that the power and mystery of the sea, if nothing else, make it an extremely unsuitable subject for the kind of economic planning which is dear to the hearts of hon. Members opposite. The fishing industry has always been subject to hazards of storm and tempest. When, to these natural hazards, we add the artificial hazards that have been caused by dislocations arising out of the war; by the mismanagement of the Ministry of Food—I refer in particular to the insane bulk-purchase of frozen fish and the equally insane purchase by the Ministry of Japanese pilchards, to which my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives referred—the helpless and supine attitude of Ministers in face of the importation of foreign fish and the heavy burden of taxation which afflicts that industry as all other industries, we can realise how very serious is its plight today.
  I wish to say a word about taxation. The fishing industry, more than any other industry in the country, depends upon adventurers and on the spirit of adventure. It has always been an industry where men have gone out and got the fish, got the markets, or got the fish and lost the markets; sometimes they have done well, sometimes badly, but when they have had to face these crises before, whether they were big trawling companies or inshore fishermen around our coasts, they have always had some fat to live on. They have always had something put by from the past.
  Mr. Edward Evans: In pre-war years?
  Mr. Law: Yes. But owing to the policy of penal taxation pursued by this Government the crisis is potentially far more serious than any which the industry has hitherto faced, because its reserves have been drawn away by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Commander Pursey: They have made bigger profits than ever before.
  Mr. Law: Did the hon. and gallant Member listen to the Chancellor's Budget speech, in which he explained to people like the hon. and gallant Member that he had taken all the profits and that there was nothing left to take? In the light of what I have said, it is not surprising that the fishing industry is faced with a crisis of the first magnitude, and that all around our coasts, in the herring ports, in the inshore fishing ports, the near water ports and the distant water ports, there are thousands of fishermen, and many thousands of others dependent upon them, who are looking to the future with fear and apprehension, very largely, as we on this side of the Committee believe, as a result of the lack of policy of His Majesty's Government.
  Commander Pursey: Nonsense.
  Mr. Law: To these men, the fishermen of England, Scotland and Wales, what a mockery the Government's claim to have provided full employment is beginning to sound.
  I do not wish to take up much time by repeating all the points we on this side of the Committee have made about the policy which ought to be pursued in the future. We hope that the Foreign Office will pursue with more vigour than it has yet done the full achievement of the Convention about over-fishing. I hope that the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries will answer the questions which my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) put to him about fish meal. The main points of that policy, as has been clear from the Debate, are the re-establishment of the White Fish Commission and the establishing of a marketing scheme. The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East, said that none of us on this side of the Committee had any interest in the position of the consumer. That is not true. One of the reasons, indeed the principal reason, why we want a marketing scheme is to improve the quality of fish and to increase the consumption of fish.
  One hon. Member asked what kind of a commission we wanted. It is perfectly clear that we want something on the lines of the Commission which was appointed under the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1938, which was suspended during the war and then abolished by the present Govern-
  1250
  ment. The hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Robertson)—I will pay the party opposite this much of a tribute—was the only Member to trot out in this Debate that old red herring about the 20 years between the wars. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East did.
  Mr. Edward Evans: I did.
  Mr. M. MacMillan: We all did.
  Mr. Law: Then I was paying a compliment which was entirely undeserved. That was the main theme of the speech of the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian. I can assure him that in this connection at any rate it is wearing rather thin. He asked why did we not recommend between the wars the kind of steps which we are recommending in the Committee tonight. The answer is that we did recommend them between the wars, and gave effect to them. If he will look at the Sea Fishing Industry (Regulation of Landing) Order, 1933, and the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1938, and read the Debates in this House on those subjects he will, if he is a fair-minded man, agree that we recommended exactly what we are recommending tonight, and that we had gone a long way towards giving effect to them when the outbreak of war put a stop to them.
  Mr. J. J. Robertson: if that is all the Opposition is now recommending I suggest that it will be as completely futile as before the war.
  Mr. Law: I have not the time to follow the hon. Member, because I wish to give the Minister full time to reply. But if the hon. Gentleman will look back at what happened before the war in connection with that Order and that Act he will find that it was by no means completely futile.
  I wish to say a word to the Secretary of State for Scotland in particular about the question of foreign importations. We on this side of the Committee do not want to prohibit the importation of foreign caught fish. We do not want to cause embarrassment to other countries, whether Iceland or any other country with whom we have a trading relationship. But we do maintain that it is impossible to obtain any stable price level so far as fish is concerned, or to

  1251
  undertake any campaign to increase the consumption of fish, or to improve the marketing, unless there is some reasonable stability about the supply. The Secretary of State for Scotland, who recently vacated an office which, as he knows, I used to hold, pointed out that the position regarding Iceland was one of great difficulty because Iceland was a member of the sterling area and came in the Marshall Aid arrangements. For that reason, he said, it was impossible for us to take any steps about the importation of Icelandic fish. If I have mis represented the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. McNeil: In connection with the sterling area, I was replying to the objection to the lending process.
  Mr. Law: Yes, the lending process. But I do not accept the view of the right hon. Gentleman about the lending process, because it certainly was constitutionally possible for the Treasury to stop this loan. I believe it was unnecessary, even from the point of view of maintaining the Icelandic economy, to permit it.
  Mr. Edward Evans: What about our shipbuilding programme?
  Mr. Law: I do not think it sensible to try to ruin the fishing industry in order to develop our shipbuilding programme, and if hon. Members opposite have no better suggestions I think they would do better to keep them for another occasion.
  The point I would put to the Government is this. The catching of fish by Iceland have increased since before the war out of all knowledge. They have built from their sterling balances 32, I think it is, modern trawlers. Under this loan they are to build 10 more. There will be 42 of these immensely powerful fish killing machines at the disposal of Iceland, which will give their fishing industry a catching capacity far and away ahead of anything they have had before. I suggest to hon. Members opposite that by standing by and allowing this to happen, by taking no steps to protect British fishermen, they have done not only an immense disservice to British fishermen but, in the long run, are acquiescing in a disservice to Iceland.
  I am quite sure that the gearing of the Icelandic fishing industry today is far too high. It is supporting a fishing industry
  1252
  which is extravagant in every respect, and to encourage Iceland in this process will not only lead to absolute disaster for our own fishermen here, but, in the end, will lead to collapse for the Icelandic industry as well.
  I hope the Minister will tell us tonight that, with his colleagues, he will take steps not to prohibit foreign landings but to regulate them in the interests of the British fishing industry, of the British consumer and, in the final analysis, of Iceland herself. I greatly fear that, if the right hon. Gentleman cannot give us this assurance, we can only go back to our constituents and tell them this great industry, one of the greatest in the country, will be the first major casualty of the Socialist Government and, I am afraid, not the last.
  9.32 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. Thomas Williams)I have listened with very great interest to this Debate. I should like to compliment hon. Members in all parts of the Committee on their wide knowledge of the industry and to say that I fully share their anxiety to see this basic industry placed on a firm foundation.
  I am sure the right hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law) would not disagree when I tell the Committee that it was never on that firm foundation from 1919 to 1939. It is perfectly true that the Conservative Governments of the inter-war period did things for the industry, but even in 1939 it was nearly a bankrupt industry. Therefore, to work hard with no results is perhaps no better than not working at all.
  I was sorry to find in the latter stages of this Debate that hon. Members opposite turned the discussion into a sort of political campaign. After all, as the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) said in his speech earlier, the fishing industry to some extent does compare with mining and agriculture as one of the basic industries. If it must regarded as a political question, then I would say that if the right hon. Member for Haltemprice, thinks that one speech from the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle), is going to turn the fishermen, their wives, and daughters and all the rest to the Conservative Party for our failure, he must

  1253
  be a very great optimist. Especially must he be an optimist if he has not forgotten what the Conservative Party's fishing policy was at the last election. This is what they said in their pamphlet " The Right Road for Britain; The Conservative Party's Statement of Policy ":
  " We shall also enact legislation to enable the industry to set up a White Fish Marketing Board…."
  That is their policy. They had never been able to achieve it through the ages, yet that is the only policy they laid before the electors during the recent election. I am prepared to take my stand on what this Government has done and what Conservative Governments before the war failed to do, and no one knows that better than the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire.
  As everyone knows, we have just passed through a very exciting time in this industry where the exuberance of certain coastal merchants led to incautious buying. There were too many buyers chasing too few fish and prices rose very steeply. They collapsed equally suddenly when retailers and housewives went on strike. It remains to be seen whether prices have now reached a level at which they are likely remain for long periods, giving a sense of stability to the industry.
  I should like to issue a warning. There are so many factors affecting the production side of the industry that variations in price, due to fluctuations in supply, must inevitably occur from time to time. I hope that neither newspapers nor the B.B.C. will take undue advantage of a particular incident without knowing all the facts of the situation. I am sure that the majority of those in the industry wish for nothing better than to maintain prices at a reasonable level, providing a fair return for the producers and reasonable prices for the consumers, while at the same time encouraging consumers to consume as much fish as possible.
  Since the first hectic days of de-control, it would appear that the slump in distant water fish prices which started last November is unfortunately continuing, and the prospect for vessels engaged in that type of fishing is certainly not encouraging at the moment. The full effect of the increased capacity of fishing fleets, both our own and those in foreign countries, has not yet really been felt. It
  1254
  would appear on the face of things as they are now, with a wider variety of food available to the population, that large quantities of cod and kindred species will be unsold even at very low prices unless the consumer can be induced to resume buying as she was buying until quite recently.
  The British distant water fishing fleet consists of the most modern and largest vessels in the industry. When prices were good—and they were good for a long time—they made very substantial profits indeed; but equally when prices fell rapidly as they have done recently, they also made just as large losses, and I fear that those losses are being made at the moment. When prices were controlled it was argued that controls destroyed all incentive to land high-quality fish. Fortunately there is an indication that greater care is now being taken by the industry in handling fish, and the quality has to some extent improved. I hope the industry in its own interest, will make every conceivable effort to keep fish in the best possible condition until it finally reaches the consumer.
  There are very special difficulties with fish caught in distant waters because of the length of time between actual catching and landing and because the fish is of coarser quality. The problem of quality catches in near and middle waters is not so acute because of shorter voyages. As has been brought out in the several speeches in this Debate, the problems are high operating costs and the high cost of gear. I shall refer to them later. But a major factor is also the scarcity of fish in home fishing grounds. Because of this, as a temporary expedient the Government provided a subsidy of 10d. per stone on fish caught by inshore, near and middle water trawlers from December, 1948. This, I fear, did not wholly remove the losses that were then being incurred. I think we shall have to wait, since it is only 12 days since prices were decontrolled, to see whether a free market for high-quality fish will enable fishermen to operate at a profit.
  While other factors intervene with regard to inshore fishermen, they are very much in the same position as the near and middle water fishermen, and the same difficulties of high costs of operating and high costs of gear are their major trouble. Looking at the white fish industry generally, landings in the first

  1255
  three months of this year tell their own story, and I hope every hon. Member will take it to heart. These amounted to 160,000 tons landed for the first quarter of this year, or 480 tons more than the first quarter of 1949, but the actual returns were £781,000 less, or a 10 per cent. drop in the revenue. Of course, costs have risen rather than fallen during the same period.
  It will be seen, therefore, that, apart from some very radical reorganisation, either carried through by the industry itself or helped by some outside source, the industry will certainly have difficulty in carrying on. This, therefore, is a challenge to private enterprise. If I accept the views expressed by hon. Members in all parts of the Committee, however, there is small hope of the industry putting its own house in order, and I think that has been brought out by every committee or investigation which ever took place into the industry.
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire, who opened the Debate, urged the Government to revive the White Fish Commission, which has been suspended since the outbreak of war. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice, attaches some importance to that, but my view, for what it is worth, is that if we revive the White Fish Commission with the same powers as those given to it in the 1938 Act, it would be worse than useless. I will explain why I think that. The powers given to the White Fish Commission were based upon the assumption of a very large measure of unity within the industry—utterly unwarranted by any experience of or any report on this industry that I have ever seen. The White Fish Commission was authorised to prepare schemes for marketing fish, but no scheme could operate unless it was approved by a very large majority of the sector of the trade involved. In other words, if 34 per cent. of those engaged in that sector voted against it, no marketing scheme could come into operation. If only 50 per cent of those engaged in that sector voted, but 17 per cent. voted against the marketing scheme, there would be no marketing scheme. I think, therefore, that the 1938 White Fish Commission would have been worse than useless.
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  The 1938 Act provided for the setting up of five marketing schemes, all independent bodies dealing with small sectors of the industry, with no proper correlation of their activities at all. There could, for example, have been separate boards for producers, wholesalers, fish friers, fishmongers and fishermen's cooperative societies. Curers, smokers, driers, canners were left out in the cold. As I say, the Commission would have done little to bring cohesion into the industry, but it would have done much to preach the divergency so harmful to the industry in the past. Now the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire suggests that we should revive it. The right hon. Member for Hull, Haltemprice, echoes those sentiments and pats himself on the chest, declaring that if we will only do that, hey presto, all will be well with this industry.
  I am satisfied that merely to revive the White Fish Commission—which, by the way, we have not abolished; it is still in a state of suspended animation—would do nothing to help this industry back to a state of prosperity. I was much more attracted by the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans), who suggested a White Fish Industry Board with appropriate powers to do the job, with some sort of direction—which right hon. and hon. Members opposite usually shirk—for unless something is superimposed, as the Duncan Committee suggested, some really executive powers given to an independent board, nothing will happen which is of fundamental value to this industry. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland said, we are willing to examine any constructive suggestions which have been made this afternoon—suggestions either of a commission or a board for production or distribution, or both, always bearing in mind the vital importance of the industry and, of course, the interests of the consumers in this country. We shall not turn down any fair, constructive suggestion that has been made or that may be made which may help this industry.
  Mr. Boothby: There is one question I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman. This is important. Has he got something in mind for the white fishing industry analogous to the Herring Industry Board?
  Mr. Williams: I said that I am more attracted by the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft—
  Mr. Boothby: Has the right hon. Gentleman anything in mind?
  Mr. Williams: —who made the suggestion that a white fish industry board might be set up, to see what it would be possible for it to do, and what proper powers might be given to it. We shall turn down no suggestion, but I am certainly not attracted by the White Fish Commission, with its useless powers given by the 1938 Act.
  Over-fishing in the industry has been referred to by several hon. Members in the course of the Debate. I am fully aware of the evil effects of over-fishing in the near and middle waters and inshore fisheries. The fall in stocks of fish has not been arrested since the end of the war. In the North Sea, vessels caught 26 cwts. per day's absence in 1947, 23 cwts. in 1948, and 20 cwts. in 1949. While this is above the level of 1938, the position certainly causes us considerable anxiety, and I am convinced that, unless and until the Convention which this Government initiated in 1946 is fully signed and ratified by all the contracting parties, our anxiety is bound to grow. In those areas where the hake fishery is carried on, the position is no better. The quantity caught per day's absence in 1947 was 21 cwts. but only 10 cwts. in 1949.
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire said we ought to turn on the heat. Speaking in a purely personal capacity, I should like to turn it on in my own sweet way, but I need not explain what my own sweet way is. Four countries, Belgium, Portugal, Spain and Iceland, have not yet ratified the Convention. Recently the Government invited those countries that have ratified the Convention to put it into force forthwith, and we, of course, would join them; but only Norway, Sweden and Denmark were prepared to do so, while the Netherlands Government refused until the Belgian Government agreed.
  That is what we seem to get out of international agreements—no agreement at all. Meantime we can only continue our pressure on these various Governments to put the Convention into force. Hon. Members will be aware that they pressed upon me very urgently some
  1258
  months ago not to apply the Convention to our trawlers until other Governments did likewise. They pressed me, and I fell for their blandishments, and we are still in that position. But we shall continue to press for this Convention, and I do not mind what sort of heat the Foreign Secretary may bring to bear.
  The question of the high cost of gear was referred to by several speakers as another factor in the high cost of catching fish these days. I know that prices have risen considerably since 1939. It is difficult to control those engaged in private enterprise from forcing prices up here, there, and everywhere for good or not so good reasons. It is difficult to give the average in the increase of costs because of the great diversity of types of gear used, but herring drift nets, for example, have increased by 300 per cent., while sisal rope has gone up by 280 per cent. The cotton yarn in herring drift nets costs £5 today compared with £1 in 1939. Sisal fibre is bought by merchants in a free market in East Africa, and it is seven times the price it was in 1939. The Government have no control over that free market. This increased price is not the result of bulk purchase. It is the result of a free market
  Mr. Law: Would the right hon. Gentleman, while giving this very interesting list, explain to the Committee what has happened to the price of coal in the years under review?
  Mr. Williams: I thought we were talking about fish. If the hon. Gentleman had been listening carefully, he would have heard his hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire give him the price of coal, both pre-war and post-war, so I need not repeat his figures and waste the time of the Committee.
  Mr. Law: Up 300 per cent.
  Mr. Williams: It has been suggested that we should re-impose the pre-war quotas on imported fish. In 1938, foreign imports were 53,000 tons, or 6.6 per cent. of our total supplies. By 1947 they had risen to 181,000 tons, or 19.2 per cent. of our total supplies. Who on the Opposition benches would in 1947, with a scarcity of food all round, have imposed restrictions upon the imports of fish, or indeed of any other foods that we could have obtained? I am perfectly certain

  1259
  that the Opposition would have shirked that duty back in 1947. By 1949, foreign imports had dropped to 16.9 per cent. of our total supplies; and for the first three months of 1950 they had dropped a further 20,000 tons. It remains to be seen, bearing in mind existing prices, whether this fall will continue.
  I ought to say that the Norwegian Government, recognising the position, plan to produce more salt fish, which means a reduction in the quantity of cod available for the British market. Since 1946 the imports of foreign-caught fish have been subject to a series of agreements between His Majesty's Government and the Governments of exporting countries. Ceilings were placed on the quantities of boxed fish imported into this country. In 1949, the ceiling was fixed at 70,000 tons, but only 43,000 tons were landed so that that could not have had any material effect upon the economics of the industry. These arrangements, however, came to an end shortly before the date of de-control. Boxed fish generally is of a high quality, and it is high quality fish which has helped to sell the not so high quality fish in this country, and I am not sure that we ought to keep it all out.
  I was asked a question about the increase in the price of cotton. This may ultimately have an effect upon the price of herring cotton fishing nets, but it is impossible for me to say at the moment just what the change may be. I was also asked about the duty on fuel oil as applied to trawlers, and so on. Well, it does not apply to trawlers at all, because even today they get a rebate for the petrol they use. One hon. Member argued that there was little or no co-operation between the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Food, or any other Government Department.
  Mr. Boothby: That was me.
  Mr. Williams: I can give the lie to that in 1950, since the Ministry of Food, the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Agriculture and the Scottish Office are co operating at this moment to see whether or not we can work out a real scheme for the fishing industry.
  Mr. Boothby: For the first time.
  Mr. Williams: Not for the first time.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Yes, for the first time.
  Mr. Williams: Well, if it is for the first time and we produce a scheme, it is worth bearing in mind that it will be one scheme better than was ever produced by any Conservative Government in the past.
  The hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) asked one or two questions, the major one being, I think, on the Petrol Duty. I have already explained that that does not apply to trawlers and to fishermen generally. His other point was to argue that we should have a long-term plan for inshore fishing, or fishing generally, comparable with that for agriculture. Well, the two industries are not quite comparable, and, as I am sure he recognises, it would be infinitely more difficult to get plans operating for fishing similar to those which operate for agriculture. Nevertheless, it is worth the while of this Committee, or this Parliament, or this Government, or somebody, to do what they can to find the best scheme possible.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft, in what I regarded as an excellent speech, asked the Government to give sympathetic treatment to the herring industry—to both producer and consumer. The fact that the Herring Industry Board has been set up, is now operating, and has preserved that industry when all else would have failed—
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Who set it up?
  Mr. Williams: Not a Conservative Government, anyhow. It was the Labour Government of 1945 that extended its powers and made it infinitely more effective than ever it had been before. My hon. Friend also referred to the possibility of the Belgian and French markets closing down for British-caught herrings. I can only hope that that does not happen. Over-fishing I have dealt with and need not refer to again.
  The hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) put a whole series of questions, as he usually does, because he is well-informed on these fishing topics, and he told us that the inshore fishing industry was not paying its way, and he could see little or no hope for it. This, he

  1261
  said, is due to the increased cost of gear, vessels, operating and so forth. It seems to me that what the hon. Member did not say, but ought to have said, was that if ever he wants to see lasting prosperity among inshore fishermen, he must support and encourage them to do more co-operating among themselves, both in catching and marketing, than they have done so far. I am sure that in that direction lies greater hope for the inshore fishermen than from any single thing that any Government can do. I have referred to the imports of boxed fish, and I need not go over that again.
  The hon. Member said that he wanted to see a white fish marketing board. I want to see something even stronger than a marketing board. He also wanted more fat for fish frying. I need only tell him that the fish friers are not at present taking up their quota. He also wanted a subsidy of ls. 3d. a stone if the industry is going to be kept in existence. Well there is no reason why the hon. Member should not be a perpetual Oliver Twist.
  The hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Howard), in a maiden speech, asked if we had made any arrangement to give the fishermen a place in the Festival of Britain. Representatives of all sections of trade have been brought to London, and it is intended that fishermen and fishing shall get a good display in the Festival of Britain. The hon. Member for Hull, North (Mr. W. R. Hudson), also in a maiden speech on which I should like to congratulate him, asked me one or two questions. He referred to fish friers taking 85 per cent. of the catch at Hull and said that if there were more oil for fish friers they would buy more fish. I can tell him, as I have said already, that the fish friers are not taking up the quota made available to them.
  Mr. Law: Because it is too expensive.
  Mr. Williams: That may very well be. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman the reason. The price of palm kernel oil is based on the price which the Minister of Food has to pay for palm kernels and processing. The Ministry do not make a profit on their sale of edible oils. That is not the fault of the Government. if the Government have to pay the price at which private enterprise sell it, they have to sell it at that price or make a loss.
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  I must say this to the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) in the minute which I have left at my disposal. Forty-five berths were made available in 1946 for the building of trawlers. They were all made available for British trawler owners to build trawlers if they wanted to. They refused because of the uncertainty of the market and the absence of any declared policy and because of their experience of the inter-war years. While they were refusing to accept these slipways, Iceland came in and had their trawlers built and now the trawler owners of Grimsby or anywhere else cannot complain about what the Government did or did not do. My reply to another question of his is that the Government have abolished the transport equalisation rate and they are not likely to resume it. I am sorry that I cannot reply to other questions, but I have done my best in the time at my disposal.
  Brigadier Peto: The right hon. Gentleman has skated very thinly over the policy in regard to the importation—
  It being Ten o'Clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress: to sit again Tomorrow.

  ROAD HAULAGE, SCOTLAND
  Motion made, and Question proposed, " That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Sparks.]
  10.1 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: Having listened to the Debate on fish all day, I find it difficult to switch my mind to the subject of road haulage in Scotland. I have chosen this subject because, since State control, we have so very few opportunities to Debate this vital and key industry. We have perhaps one annual Debate on the British Transport Commission's report, and even that is not our right. We have perhaps a Supply Day and an Adjournment Debate, and it is very difficult to frame Questions in such a manner as to elude Mr. Speaker's eye. It is for that reason that I welcome this opportunity of a short discussion, when the Minister is present in the House and accepts responsibility

  1263
  for making a reply. I am very glad to see him here tonight, as I have given him prior detailed notice of the points I wish to raise. I trust that he will be able to give a specific reply to these points so that we may have a constructive and useful Debate.
  I wish to draw attention to the interpretation and administration of the Transport Act. In the very short time that is available I can give only a brief summary of a subject so vital to those across the Border. I shall not discuss the merits of State control, because for a short time, at any rate, we must accept the fact that this is a nationalised industry — rather like the lady who once said to Doctor Johnson " You know, Doctor Johnson, I accept the world as it is," whereupon he replied, " Madam, you had better." I accept nationalised transport only in the happy belief that not many months hence we on this side will be sitting opposite and will, therefore, have an opportunity to implement our policy towards this key industry, a policy which is well known.
  I feel that our duty now to our constituents is to ensure that the Transport Act is fairly and efficiently administered. The main point I wish to draw to the Minister's attention is the granting of permits of all kinds to road haulage operators in the north of Scotland, generally, and in the north-east of Scotland, in particular. Under the terms of the Act, when the Minister vests his authority, through the British Transport Commission, to the local road haulage executive, he thereby divests himself of his power to intervene in these matters. Surely however he should personally give attention to the administration and interpretation of his own Act and issue general directions as to the carrying out of his own policy. If this is not done the Transport Act is differently regarded in various parts of the country, entirely according to the different composition and attitude of mind of the local road haulage executives.
  As regards Scotland, it is well-known that the further north one goes the greater the geographical disadvantages. There is a sparse population and there are few industries and long distances to cover. Those operators who have their bases on the coastal towns have the additional disadvantage that the 25-mile radius is
  1264
  even more restricted, because on one side they have the open sea. It will be remembered that when the Transport Bill was debated we on this side moved Amendments to the effect that the 25-mile radius should be extended to 40 and 60 miles. respectively, under various conditions. and that these Amendments were defeated.
  We realise that it is almost impossible to get over the geographical difficulties to suit everyone, but under those circumstances is it not more vital that the granting of permits should be done with far greater latitude than has been done at present, taking into account the special geographical and other difficulties that affect certain parts of the country?
  To give some examples, local road haulage executives vary in their strict or wide interpretations of the Act. For example, the Road Haulage Executive for Penrith and Newcastle have granted operational permits to private hauliers to operate over a 300 miles' radius. Which means that an Englishman can go all the way to Aberdeen, carrying a heavy load. and take a load from Aberdeen all the way back as far south as London. Headquarters in Glasgow have refused permits time and time again to Scottish contractors without taking into account the special factors involved in Scotland.
  There is one particular point regardinp a constituent of mine which I should like to raise tonight, and it illustrates very well the different attitudes of the various road haulage executives. This contractor was one of the largest in Aberdeen and the North before the Transport Act came into operation. After that date his various businesses were compulsorily acquired by the State. However, he acquired an interest in a private limited company doing local work, and managed to secure a milk contract with the Aberdeen and District Milk Marketing Board, acting on behalf of the Ministry of Food to carry milk in the counties of Aberdeen and Kincardine.
  This contract was to last for a period of five years, starting from October, 1949. He obtained the necessary " A " carrier's licence, despite the fact that his case was dealt with before the local licensing authority in public and despite the fact that objections were raised both by the local Road Haulage Executive and the railway company. Having obtained the

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  contract, he applied to the local R.H.E. for the necessary permits to go beyond a radius of 25 miles. These permits were refused, except for a period of three months, although the contract was to go on for a period of five years.
  Representations were made on his behalf both to the Glasgow Headquarters and to London, and were supported by the Ministry of Food, but this decision was upheld. I maintain that certain very peculiar circumstances surrounded this refusal, and that it also proves that a local road haulage executive can, if they so wish, with the powers at their disposal, restrict the activities of their competitors in business. I cannot believe that the Minister would wish for biased or interested decisions to be made in his name, and it is for that reason that I draw his attention to this particular case.
  The peculiar circumstances are that the local road haulage executive, before the Transport Act came into operation, held this milk contract in the name of a certain firm, Messrs. Wiseley and Sons and they held that contract up to October, 1949. The Ministry of Food then asked for competitive tenders, and Mr. Alexander received this particular contract, despite the fact that the local road haulage executive, in the guise of Messrs. Wiseley and Sons, wished to carry on the work.
  I maintain that the peculiar circumstances are those that when the owner of the contract applied to the local road haulage executive he found that his ex-competitor in business refused to give him the necessary permit for, at any rate, 25 per cent. of the contract, which was the six vehicles out of a fleet of 24 which have to go beyond the radius of 25 miles. One appreciates that one can get over the difficulty by requiring that the contractor should re-base the six vehicles which have to go beyond the 25-mile radius, but doing so would mean that the vehicles would have to be kept away from their main bases of maintenance and repair, which would add inconvenience and cost to the carrying out of the contract.
  Despite public demand, despite the support of a Government Department, the Ministry of Food, and despite the necessary contracts to give the public the best service, this permit was refused by a local road haulage executive. The Act says that it has to be administered in the public
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  interest, and I therefore maintain that the necessary facilities should be made available.
  I want to give another example in connection with household removals. A good many Aberdeen hauliers have requested permits for " A " and " B " carrier licences for the purpose of carrying household goods on removals. These have been refused by the local road haulage executive because they say that adequate transport is available. Yet since the Act came into force, the British Transport Commission, in the shape of Messrs. Pick-fords, Ltd., of London, have opened up branches in Aberdeen and Inverness. That is bound to lead to the query whether the opening up of these branches and the refusal of the licences to private hauliers is a coincidence or not.
  Just to give the Minister of Transport a little relief. I must say that I am very glad indeed that he investigated a complaint which I put before him the other day to the effect that certain applications for job permits were not even being made available by the local road haulage executive. They were not being made available on the grounds that in any case the jobs would not have been permitted because adequate transport was available. Let us consider this subject in relation to private enterprise. If private enterprise found that there was not the public demand for its services, it would either have to sell its lorries or end its licences, but the State, in the form of the British Transport Commission, can, with the taxpayers' money behind it, carry on in any circumstances.
  While, under the terms of the Act, it may be true to say that Transport Commission's services are available, I cannot believe that this is a fair way to go about the business for it does not give private hauliers an opportunity to compete. I maintain that in the circumstances it is essential that the State should ensure a greater latitude in granting permits to private hauliers, that it should ensure that there is no whittling down of permits to cause inconvenience and more expense to the private haulier, and that it should in no circumstances compete within the 25-mile radius. What otherwise happens is that the State — that is, the Minister of Transport—through the local road haulage executives, is forcing the private

  1267
  haulier either to run at a loss or to ask to be acquired by the State.
  The main question which I have to ask the Minister to answer tonight is: What exactly is the policy of the Government in this respect? I find two completely divergent views. First of all, the right hon. Gentleman wrote to me on 3rd April, saying:
  " The Transport Act, 1947, gives a monopoly of long-distance carriage to the British Transport Commission."
  If this is the case, it appears a very fit subject to come before the Monopolies Commission. On the other hand, to quote the divergent view, I find that Sir Cyril Hurcomb—who has, after all, the responsibility for administering the Act under the British Transport Commission—wrote this in July, 1949:
  " It is our intention that the latitude to issue permits to continue operation shall be exercised in such a manner and in such a spirit which will acknowledge the importance of a just treatment of the individual haulier and the interests of trade as well as the convenience of administration, which should be a secondary consideration."
  That sounds fine, but Sir Cyril Hurcomb wrote that in July, 1949, while the right hon. Gentleman wrote to me about the monopoly in April, 1950. I would like to know whether, without our noticing it, the policy of the Government has changed in this respect.
  In conclusion, and because I trust the Minister will give a long, exhaustive and detailed reply, I appeal to him to examine personally the grievances I have put before him tonight, because they are real grievances and are only an example of what is happening, not only all over Scotland but all over the United Kingdom. I suggest to the right hon. Gentle—man that he should remove any rigid or arbitrary interpretation of the Transport Act, remembering that the private haulier has no court of appeal to which he can turn. It is, therefore, even more essential that he should ensure just and fair treatment if we really live in a democratic community.
  10.17 p.m.
  The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): I should like to acknowledge fully the charming manner in which the noble Lady has launched this attack.upon me tonight, and also to express my
  1268
  appreciation of the fact that she informed me generally of the views she would express so that I could furnish myself with some information.
  The first considerable point she raised was the suggestion that the organisation of the British Transport Commission has been arbitrary in dealing with permits generally in Scotland. From the information at my disposal, I do not think that can be fairly substantiated by the facts. I am informed that, taking Scotland as a whole, 1,500 applications were made for original permits. Of these, 200 were invalid, which meant that no licences were held in 1946, the date of qualification. In 100 cases no permits were required for the work to be performed, 250 were refused, and 950 were granted. I do not consider that on those figures one could argue that Scotland as a whole has been unfairly treated.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: The right hon. Gentleman said that 250 were refused and 950 were granted. Does he mean granted in full or for, say, a 12 months' period?
  Mr. Barnes: It is not possible for me to give information with regard to the terms upon which permits were granted.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Well—
  Mr. Barnes: That would be an impossible task.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I do not want to interrupt the Minister more than necessary, but the point put by my hon. Friend relates to the example I was giving from Aberdeen, showing that a permit was granted but only for three months instead of five years.
  Mr. Barnes: Of course, none of these permits are granted indefinitely. In this respect there is no real contradiction between the statement which I made and the interpretation which Sir Cyril Hurcomb placed upon the powers of the British Transport Commission.
  There is not the slightest doubt that. while the Act was passing through Parliament, which eventually sanctioned those provisions, the intention of Parliament was to give to the Commission a monopoly of long-distance road transport; but discretion was given to the Commission

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  to meet the circumstances of any particular period. I think that the general figures which I have quoted prove conclusively that there has not been any arbitrary action with regard to Scotland as a whole.
  In the area of the Highlands north and west of the Caledonian Canal, 93 applications were made for original permits. I am informed that 80 were granted and 13 refused. Of the 13 refused, 10 were not required because the distances were already restricted by the conditions attached to ff.; " B " licences, and three were not valid. These are important figures.
  Hon. Members often overlook that in the Road Traffic Act all the principles of restriction were introduced. It is no new practice for existing road hauliers to resist applications for new licences. This has been a common procedure of the licensing courts ever since the introduction of the Road Traffic Act.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: They are judges in their own cause.
  Mr. Barnes: I should like to emphasise that it was common practice long before the Transport Act was introduced for the licensing authority, in granting these licences, to impose restrictive conditions. There is no alteration, therefore, in this procedure.
  Let me turn to the problem which was raised by the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) of Messrs. Wiseley and Sons and Mr. Charles Alexander. When the facts are stated, an entirely different interpretation can be reached. The interpretation which is put upon these matters depends very largely upon whether the political views are against the interests of the Transport Commission as a public concern or are in its favour. The firm of Messrs. Wiseley and Sons was acquired voluntarily by the Commission in August, 1948. No compulsion at all was introduced; the acquisition was by voluntary agreement.
  This company held a contract with the Milk Marketing Board, but the contract contained a cancellation clause, of which the Milk Marketing Board took advantage. [An HON. MEMBER: " Very wise of them] That may be, but it is desirable to have the facts on record rather than a prejudiced political interpretation of them. By taking advantage of the
  1270
  cancellation clause the Milk Marketing Board showed quite clearly that they were under no influence and were in no way concerned with the interests of the Commission. When the Board called for new tenders, Mr. Charles Alexander, it is interesting to note, put in a lower tender than did the Road Haulage Executive and obtained the contract.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Barnes: Subsequently, his business fell to be acquired compulsorily and, normally, the contract would have passed to the Commission; but Mr. Alexander, after disposing of his business—I agree he had no alternative under the compulsory Clauses of the Act—
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: " Disposing of his business! "
  Sir William Darling: After disposing of his livelihood.
  Mr. Barnes: Not a bit. If hon. Members will wait until I give the subsequent information, they will find that is not the case. Mr. Alexander then acquired a number of other vehicles and applied to the licensing authority for licences to operate them. Although the Railway Executive and the Road Haulage Executive objected to the licences being granted for these new vehicles, nevertheless the licensing authority granted the licences to Mr. Alexander.
  I want to emphasise that that proves what I have often stated, that the licensing authorities, representing another section of my Department, operate in a judicial sense in matters of this description. Obviously these licences could be operated only within the terms of the Transport Act—namely, within the 25 miles radius, and the bulk of this contract for the Milk Marketing Board is within such a radius and the majority of Mr. Alexander's vehicles are being used in that direction. With regard to the other vehicles, Mr. Alexander applied for a change in the operating centre of the six vehicles which are affected and which were outside this provision. At the moment his application is before the licensing authority and it would not be right for me to comment on the matter, which is still under consideration.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: That is true. I did say that Mr. Alexander could rebase

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  his vehicles, but on a five year contract surely he had the right to have permits granted for six vehicles so that he would not be involved in extra risk?
  Mr. Barnes: It is all very well to say that an individual has the right, but the facts I have given show that the whole case submitted to the House this evening did not give the full facts. When the full facts of the case are given, in my view it is not a case of an individual being subjected to any severe central authority but of an individual who has got away with a good deal by being able to get this contract and carry it out. The noble Lady seems to consider that the British Transport Commission have no right to expand their business like any other concern. Nothing of the kind. Removal concerns generally are outside the provisions of the Act, but in Messrs. Pickford's the British Transport Commission have an organisation for removals which perhaps has more experience of
  1272
  removal of furniture than any other firm in the country. I commend their enterprise in extending that organisation and giving the Scottish people the opportunity of availing themselves of a magnificent and very efficient removal organisation.
  It is no use evading the position that when Parliament passed the Transport Act it did indicate its desire that the British Transport Commission should have control of long-distance transport in this country. I do not think we desire to evade that issue. Although permits are granted from time to time, we must bear in mind that where the British Transport Commission have facilities for carrying out these services it is their duty and obligation to do so and to spread throughout the country an efficient co-ordinated organisation for the purpose of carrying out the transport services of the country.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Half-past Ten o'Clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Utility Wool Cloths
  Utility Wool Cloths
  Imperial Preference
  Imperial Preference
  Street Traders, London
  Street Traders, London
  Rubber Stocks
  Rubber Stocks
  Utility Towelling
  Utility Towelling
  Bulk Purchases
  Bulk Purchases
  Periodicals (Sale or Return System)
  Periodicals (Sale or Return System)
  Nylon Stockings (Home Market)
  Nylon Stockings (Home Market)
  PRISONERS (LETTERS TO M.P.s)
  PRISONERS (LETTERS TO M.P.s)
  CIVIL DEFENCE (PLANS)
  CIVIL DEFENCE (PLANS)
  SUNDAY CINEMAS (POLLS)
  SUNDAY CINEMAS (POLLS)
  CRUELTY TO CHILDREN (REPORT)
  CRUELTY TO CHILDREN (REPORT)
  POULTRY (MOVEMENT RESTRICTIONS)
  POULTRY (MOVEMENT RESTRICTIONS)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Hong Kong (Goods Clearance)
  Hong Kong (Goods Clearance)
  Armaments Saks, Middle East
  Armaments Saks, Middle East
  Profits Tax (Nationalised Industries)
  Profits Tax (Nationalised Industries)
  Wages and Service Pay
  Wages and Service Pay
  Motor Cars (Taxation)
  Motor Cars (Taxation)
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Totalisators (Tax)
  Totalisators (Tax)
  Economic Survey (Railway Expenditure)
  Economic Survey (Railway Expenditure)
  Tanganyika Concessions, Ltd. (Shares Sale)
  Tanganyika Concessions, Ltd. (Shares Sale)
HOUSING
  Bomb-Damaged Areas
  Bomb-Damaged Areas
  Sunnyside Camp, Theale
  Sunnyside Camp, Theale
  Building Costs
  Building Costs
  Metropolitan Borough Councils
  Metropolitan Borough Councils
  Programme, Lewisham
  Programme, Lewisham
  Wareham and Purbeck
  Wareham and Purbeck
  Softwood (Substitutes)
  Softwood (Substitutes)
  Bewdley and Kidderminster
  Bewdley and Kidderminster
  Agricultural Workers
  Agricultural Workers
  Flats
  Flats
  Estates (Acreage)
  Estates (Acreage)
  Bridge-Blean and Whitstable
  Bridge-Blean and Whitstable
  Private Builders, Nottingham
  Private Builders, Nottingham
  Service Hutments
  Service Hutments
  Compulsory Purchase Orders
  Compulsory Purchase Orders
  Building Licences
  Building Licences
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Midwives and Nurses (Salaries)
  Midwives and Nurses (Salaries)
  Sanatoria Patients (Visitors)
  Sanatoria Patients (Visitors)
  Tuberculosis
  Tuberculosis
  Wolverhampton Hospital Committee
  Wolverhampton Hospital Committee
  Infantile Paralysis
  Infantile Paralysis
  Maternity Ambulances (Midwives)
  Maternity Ambulances (Midwives)
  Hearing Aids
  Hearing Aids
  Spectacles Supply
  Spectacles Supply
  Hospital Car Service
  Hospital Car Service
  Chemists' Remuneration
  Chemists' Remuneration
  Tuberculosis Sanatoria (Beds)
  Tuberculosis Sanatoria (Beds)
  Milk-borne Infection
  Milk-borne Infection
  Hospital, Putney
  Hospital, Putney
  Pitressin Tannate (Oil Ampoules)
  Pitressin Tannate (Oil Ampoules)
  Foreign Reciprocal Facilities
  Foreign Reciprocal Facilities
  Tuberculosis Patients (Rehabilitation)
  Tuberculosis Patients (Rehabilitation)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Day Nurseries (Charges)
  Day Nurseries (Charges)
  Identity Cards (Replacements)
  Identity Cards (Replacements)
  DIVORCE DECREES (REGISTRATION)
  DIVORCE DECREES (REGISTRATION)
  BIRTH REGISTER (CROSS-ENTRIES)
  BIRTH REGISTER (CROSS-ENTRIES)
EMPLOYMENT
  Students (Farm Work)
  Students (Farm Work)
  Carpenters and Joiners, Gateshead
  Carpenters and Joiners, Gateshead
EDUCATION
  School Meals
  School Meals
  Teachers' Salaries
  Teachers' Salaries
  University Awards (Recommendations)
  University Awards (Recommendations)
  Foreign Films (U.N.E.S.C.O. Scheme)
  Foreign Films (U.N.E.S.C.O. Scheme)
  Denominational Schools (Grants)
  Denominational Schools (Grants)
  Teachers
  Teachers
  BECHUANALAND (SERETSE KHAMA)
  BECHUANALAND (SERETSE KHAMA)
  HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES
  HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES
  SWAZILAND (RITUAL MURDER CHARGE)
  SWAZILAND (RITUAL MURDER CHARGE)
  KENYA AND TANGANYIKA
  KENYA AND TANGANYIKA
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Spinning and Weaving Machinery
  Spinning and Weaving Machinery
  High Voltage Insulators
  High Voltage Insulators
  Canteens and Hostels
  Canteens and Hostels
  MOTOR CYCLES (SILENCING)
  MOTOR CYCLES (SILENCING)
  SUPPLEMENTARY PETROL (OLD PEOPLE)
  SUPPLEMENTARY PETROL (OLD PEOPLE)
  U.S. AIRCRAFT (SEARCH)
  U.S. AIRCRAFT (SEARCH)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Subsidies
  Subsidies
  Pâté de Foie Gras (Imports)
  Pâté de Foie Gras (Imports)
  Frogs' Legs (Imports)
  Frogs' Legs (Imports)
WEST INDIES
  Bahamas (Constitution)
  Bahamas (Constitution)
  Fruit Canning
  Fruit Canning
  KENYA (LAW STUDENTS' BURSARIES)
  KENYA (LAW STUDENTS' BURSARIES)
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Prayers
The Viscount Furness—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Earl Poulet—Took the Oath.

ARAB PALESTINE, JORDAN AND ISRAEL
4.5 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government the following Question, of which I have given them private notice:— namely, whether they have any statement to make about the reported declaration by the Jordan Government with regard to the union of Arab Palestine with Jordan.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, I have a statement to make and I must crave your Lordships' indulgence as it is rather long. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have been officially informed by the Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan of the union of the Kingdom of Jordan and of that part of Palestine under Jordan occupation and control. The Jordan Government in this communication have stated that an Act providing for this union was unanimously adopted on April 24 by the Jordan Assembly, which is composed of representatives of both these territories, and received the royal assent on the same day. His Majesty's Government have decided to accord formal recognition to this union. They take this opportunity of declaring that they regard the provisions of the Anglo-Jordan Treaty of Alliance of 1948 as applicable to all the territory included in the union. This action is subject to explanation on two points.
The first of these points relates to the frontier between this territory and Israel. This frontier has not yet been finally determined. The existing boundary is the line laid down in the Armistice Agreement signed between Israel and Jordan
1212
on April 3, 1949, and is subject to any modification which may be agreed upon by the two States under the terms of that Agreement, or of any final settlement which may replace it. Until, therefore, the frontier between Israel and Jordan is determined by a final settlement between them, His Majesty's Government regard the territory to which the Anglo-Jordan Treaty is applicable as being bounded by the Armistice Line or any modification of it which may be agreed upon by the two parties.
The second point relates to Jerusalem. The part of Palestine which is now united to the Kingdom of Jordan includes a portion of the area defined in the resolution on the internationalisation of Jerusalem adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on December 9, 1949. His Majesty's Government wish to state that, pending a final determination of the status of this area, they are unable to recognise Jordan sovereignty over any part of it. They do, however, recognise that Jordan exercises de facto authority in the part occupied by her. They consider therefore that the Anglo-Jordan Treaty applies to this part unless or until the United Nations shall have established effective authority there. His Majesty's Government's obligations under the Treaty are of course subject always to their overriding obligations under the United Nations Charter. His Majesty's Government wish to add that they have no intention of requesting the establishment of military bases in peace time within the area of Palestine now united to the Kingdom of Jordan.
His Majesty's Government have also decided to accord de jure recognition to the State of Israel, subject to explanations on two points corresponding to those described above in regard to the case of Jordan. These points are as follows: first, that His Majesty's Government are unable to recognise the sovereignty of Israel over that part of Jerusalem which she occupies, though, pending a final determination of the status of the area, they recognise that Israel exercises de facto authority in it; secondly, that His Majesty's Government cannot regard the present boundaries between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon as constituting the definitive frontiers of Israel, as these

1213
boundaries were laid down in the Armistice Agreements concluded severally between Israel and each of these States, and are subject to any modifications which may be agreed upon under the terms of those Agreements or of any final settlements which may replace them.
In announcing these two acts of recognition, His Majesty's Government wish to reaffirm their conviction that the problem of Palestine is capable of solution by peaceful means, given good will and understanding on the part of all the parties concerned. It is their earnest hope that the steps they have now taken will help to create stability in the areas concerned and will therefore make a contribution towards the peace of the Middle East as a whole.

MAINTENANCE ORDERS BILL [H.L.]
4.11 p.m.
An Amendment reported (according to Order).
Clause 27 [Saving]:
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON)THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON) moved to add to the clause:
"(2) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that in relation to proceedings in which the sheriff has jurisdiction by virtue of the provisions of this Act there are the same rights of appeal and of remit to the Court of Session as there are in relation to the like proceedings in which the sheriff has jurisdiction otherwise than by virtue of the said provisions."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, under certain provisions of this Bill new grounds of jurisdiction are conferred on the sheriff—for example, under Clause 6 he is given jurisdiction to entertain an action of separation and aliment if the pursuer is resident within the sheriffdom. His usual jurisdiction is determined by reference to the defender. Doubt has been expressed whether in these cases there is the like right to appeal to the Court of Session against the sheriff's judgment or the like right to have the case remitted for trial in the Court of Session as is available in similar types of case coming before the sheriff in the exercise of his ordinary jurisdiction. The doubt is based on the ground that similar jurisdiction is not conferred by the Bill on the Court of Session. It is not thought that there is any real ground for
1214
doubting the competence of the Court of Session to entertain appeals or remits in these cases, but as the doubt has been raised it is thought better to set it at rest by an express provision in the Bill, rather than to leave it to be the subject of litigation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 14, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Morrison.)
4.13 p.m.
LORD REID: My Lords I should like to say a word upon this question. This Bill enables actions of great importance to be raised in Scotland in new circumstances where there would not otherwise have been jurisdiction. One of them is an action of separation and aliment, corresponding to divorce a mensa et toro. Under the Bill, the initiation of these actions is confined to the sheriff court. In normal circumstances one would expect that an action of this importance could competently be raised in the Court of Session, but I recognise that there are difficulties involved—which I need not specify—in making that Court competent. In this particular case I regret those difficulties; I think it would have been much better if they could have been overcome, but in the circumstances, which are known to me, I do not wish to take exception to the omission of the original Court of Sessions jurisdiction. Of course, if an action of such importance cannot be raised originally in the Court of Session it is vital that there should be a right of appeal.
In existing sheriff court procedure there is a convenient method by which the case can be remitted, where there is a suitable occasional court of the Court of Session, before anything is done in the sheriff court, so that the inquiry takes place in the Court of Session. That is not a procedure which one would expect to contemplate very often, but it would be very convenient on occasion. As the noble Lord said, doubts were entertained. I shared in them, particularly with regard to the competence of remitting under the Bill as it previously stood. I think it is very much to the good that those doubts have been resolved, and especially that they have been resolved in what appears to me to be the right way. Therefore, while I have expressed certain regrets that this Amendment does not go far enough,

1215
it is a considerable improvement on the Bill as it stood.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

COLONIAL AND OTHER TERRITORIES (DIVORCE JURISDICTION) BILL. [H.L.]
An Amendment reported (according to Order).

COMMONWEALTH MIGRATION
4.15 p.m.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON rose to call attention to the progress of migration within the British Commonwealth and Empire; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is the first debate we have had on the subject of migration within the British Commonwealth and Empire for over eighteen months, and I feel it may be of some value to review the progress that has already been made to assist migrants who leave this country and go overseas within the British Commonwealth, and to examine some of the obstacles to migration which must now have become apparent after five or six years' experience of migration since the war. It may also help us to carry a stage further the formulation of measures to overcome those obstacles. I believe that by so doing we may fortify the strong bonds that bind the members of the Empire together. Furthermore, I feel that a debate such as this has value in showing that we in the United Kingdom take an active interest in the problems that confront members of the Commonwealth far overseas, who sometimes believe, I think, that we pass over some of their difficulties.
I propose to confine my remarks this afternoon largely to the migration needs of Australia, but by so doing I should not like to give the impression that I feel the needs of other Dominions are less important. This is a matter which affects the whole of the British Commonwealth. I wish to talk about Australia because I visited that country last year, and one of the reasons why I went there was to study the migration problem; and I understand that other noble Lords intend in the course of the debate to cover the needs of the other Dominions and countries of the Commonwealth. I should
1216
like to say a few words about what I found in Australia, because I feel they may be pertinent to this debate. First, I was struck most forcibly by the loyalty and affection of the Australians for both this country and the people living here. It was really inspiring. As your Lordships may know, when Australians refer to this country they speak of it as "home." The Australians give a tremendous welcome to anyone visiting Australia from the United Kingdom. The people of the United States are well known for the hospitality they show to strangers, and the Australians have nothing to learn from them. They take a great interest in United Kingdom affairs, an interest that might be almost disconcerting to some people in this country if they but knew about it. Before the war it was thought that Australia, like a number of other countries, was apt to be somewhat insular in her outlook. Other noble Lords who have been there since the war will know that that attitude has completely changed. There has been the most radical change in Australian outlook since 1939. Now Australia takes a tremendous interest in international affairs, and I believe she is determined to play an ever increasing part in them. I am sure she will be heard with respect by all countries.
The second point that greatly impressed me about Australia was a certain feeling of remoteness from us. At times they even go so far as to think that we are a little indifferent to what goes on in their part of the world. Australia is a long way away, and probably this feeling may in part be caused by that great distance, but I think it is also caused by the extraordinary lack of visitors from this country. That is deeply felt. One of the first things that was said to me in Australia was, "We are very glad to see you, but why do not more of you come out here?" That was last August. I was also told that since 1945 only one British Cabinet Minister and one Under-Secretary had visited Australia. I was able to tell them that that Cabinet Minister was the Leader of your Lordships' House. We can afford to take a much greater interest in Australian affairs and I am certain it will not be resented. On the contrary, it will be well received in Australia. We have some of our best friends in the world in that country. With regard to migration, the Australian attitude has also greatly

1217
changed. I think it was felt before the war that Australia did not always welcome migrants. Now the contrary is entirely true. New settlers, preferably British settlers, are recognised as Australia's basic need. She must have them because without more people Australia cannot develop her resources and industries. It is now the over-riding national issue and it is discussed with tremendous interest and seriousness by all, from the highest to the lowest, in Australia.
I would leave that point and turn to the more general subject of migration, with particular reference to the role of the United Kingdom. I am certain that the population needs of the Dominions are of vital concern to the United Kingdom. They concern us intimately and we must participate in them as much as we can, first, because we are the chief supplier of British immigrants; secondly, because we are the moral leader of the Commonwealth and our active participation and leadership is essential to any great Commonwealth plan; and finally—though perhaps one may say that this is a selfish reason—because the United Kingdom depends on the strength of the Commonwealth and Empire, and unless Commonwealth countries can increase their strength and populations we ourselves are going to be weak. That is an important thing for us always to bear in mind—although that may sound rather a parochial remark. It would be very wrong of us to stand aloof from or take a passive attitude to the struggle these countries are putting up to get more people. I think it is the task of His Majesty's Government to give every assistance they can to help the movement of migrants, in particular with regard to shipping facilities, obtaining prefabricated houses, either from this country or from countries on the Continent such as the Scandinavian countries, and equipment for manufacturing building materials, such as brick kilns and so on. With regard to road transport—of which, incidentally, Australia is particularly short—I am sure we could do more than we do at the moment in helping to supply their needs. Again, we could help in giving the fullest possible consultation facilities, and by developing information services for would-be migrants. I do not think we should leave it entirely to the High Commissioners'
1218
officers, because it is a big task, and I am sure they would welcome assistance from us.
In preparing my speech for this debate, I tried to find any recent Government publications that may exist on the subject of migration. The most recent I have been able to find, other than speeches in the OFFICIAL REPORT, was published in 1944. I want to ask His Majesty's Government (I have given notice of this question) whether they will not consider publishing a new statement upon migration within the British Commonwealth and Empire; whether they will in that statement pay special regard to providing some account of the facilities that exist at the moment for assisting migrants; and what plans they have to assist migrants in the future and to develop existing migration schemes. I am sure that such a document would provide valuable information and would also be a source of encouragement to all those interested in this subject.
I want now to turn to one or two of the reasons why I believe, and I am sure many of your Lordships believe, that migration is an important and pressing matter for us to bear in mind. In the last debate on this subject in your Lordships' House, it was said that migration must be an integral part of Commonwealth policy; and the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmair, speaking in that debate, said that he put it even higher than that. I do not think any of us can deny that the population needs of the Dominions are an essential part of our economic and military struggle for security and strength. I should like to give an instance to illustrate that point. Again I will take Australia. Five or six years ago Australia was linked to the West by a series of military bases in Cairo, Egypt, India and Singapore. There is now practically nothing at all in the way of military posts between the Suez Canal and Port Darwin—that is a distance of many thousands of miles. The fact is that Australia is isolated in the Pacific and unconnected with this line of military communications. Even worse than that as we all know, Burma is in chaos, Malaya is terrorised, and an unfriendly Chinese horde is terrorising the whole of the Far East.
In the last war it did not take the Japanese long to get down to Port Moresby—which is the nearest piece of land to north Australia. It could happen again. Australia must have the population

1219
and the industry to defend and supply herself in a time of emergency. At the moment she has a population the size of greater London—that in a country which is bigger than the United States and has a coastline twice as long as that of the United States. I believe that if Australia were to fall in a future war, the whole of the Pacific and Indian oceans might be denied to us. In my view, it is our responsibility to ensure that that cannot happen.
I should like to go now to the other extreme of the picture and deal with the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has a population which has been increasing steadily at the rate of about 330,000 people a year for the last hundred years and has now reached the figure of about 50,000,000 people. Those 50,000,000 people are all contained in one country which, if you exclude Scotland, is no bigger than the largest privately-owned cattle station in Queensland. That certainly makes one wonder. The fact is that in this small country 80 per cent. of the industrial production potential of the British Commonwealth is now centred. I cannot believe that such over-centralisation is right, because not only does it make us vulnerable to attack, but it makes every single country in the Commonwealth vulnerable to attack. If we fall, there certainly is no hope for them.
Turning to another aspect of this important question of migration, I am sure many of your Lordships will agree that the value of Commonwealth and Empire trade as a means of getting us out of our present economic troubles and bringing us back to national solvency is of no small importance. But the volume of Empire trade must be limited by the size of the markets and the production capacities of the countries within the Commonwealth. We can raise the volume of trade in the Commonwealth to a certain level, but it must ultimately be governed by the size of the populations in the Commonwealth countries with whom we are trading. We cannot increase the volume of Empire trade higher still unless we have more people in the Dominions, so as to increase the size of the Dominion markets and increase their production potential. This was brought home to me in Australia, where everywhere I went it was said that
1220
they were no longer content, as in the olden days, merely to sell raw materials to the United Kingdom and buy back the finished products from us. They are now determined to develop their own industries, and unless we co-operate they will go to some other great country and ask for help in developing them. I believe it is important that United Kingdom manufacturers should realise this. I also feel that it presents a great opportunity for industrialists in this country to expand in the Commonwealth. When we talk about migration, I do not think we should do so merely in terms of people, but in terms of industry also.
I should like to touch on one other point. The Dominion countries, and particularly Australia, are determined to increase their population by immigration—they must do so. If they cannot get the people from this country, they will get them from Europe. I would point out that in 1950 the immigration target for Australia is 200,000 persons, of which it is hoped to get 70,000 from this country and the remaining 130,000 from Europe. That means, even this year, that the number of Europeans going to Australia will be nearly double the number of Britons. I need not emphasise to your Lordships the danger that would occur within the Commonwealth if Commonwealth countries were one day to have the greater part of their population comprised of non-British stock.
I wish now to deal for a moment with one or two of the difficulties and obstacles that stand in the way of migration. In the last debate on this subject in your Lordships' House, it was said that the rate of migration must be governed by the absorptive capacity of reception countries. That is certainly true, and we should all agree with it. But I feel that there are two kinds of restrictions governing the absorptive capacity of those countries. First of all, there are the natural obstacles such as climate, disease, racial habits and over-population. I do not believe that those obstacles can be easily overcome. But the second kind of restrictions are the artificial obstacles, which can be overcome, such as shortage of accommodation, shortage of shipping and lack of employment capacity. In the cases of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, there are no obstacles of the

1221
first kind, but there are obstacles of the second kind. It is with those that I wish to deal, and it is those which at the present moment are restricting the flow of migrants and preventing a greater number going out.
With regard to Australia, housing is the greatest obstacle to settlement. In this connection it is significant that all the migrants who have returned from Australia—or the greater proportion of them—are those who went out to Australia unaided; that is, not in the sponsored scheme, but paying their own way and trusting to find accommodation when they arrived. Most of the people who came back were from that group; there have been very few returned migrants in the nominated class. That clearly points to the fact that the people who went out to Australia without assured accommodation before they left this country found the housing difficulties greater than they expected, and were unable to find homes. I believe that out there the building rate is just about keeping pace and gaining a little upon the arrears. The arrears from the war years include something like 350,000 houses. The great bottleneck to house production in Australia is the shortage of materials and such things as bricks, tiles and fittings. Incidentally, I believe that in New South Wales last year they were short of 80,000 baths—though it is true that people have the seas to bathe in! There was also a shortage of people to make the bricks and tiles, and I believe that that is where the great bottleneck occurs.
In order to be able to accommodate properly many new migrants, it is necessary for Australia to supplement her own house production and to bring in from outside prefabricated houses. That is what the Australian State and Federal Governments are concentrating upon at the present time. I believe that that is where we can help, first by providing the brick kilns and so on to make the materials for the housing, and secondly by helping with prefabricated houses. Here I should ask His Majesty's Government a question of which I have given them notice. It is: What assistance are they giving the Australian housing mission, which is in this country at the present time?
I should like to deal for a moment with the other great obstacle to migration, that of shipping, which is sometimes
1222
put forward as being the chief restriction on a greater flow of migrants. I understand that at the present moment the shipping available to Australian migrants is just about equal to the number that are going out there, but the picture will be entirely different in a few months' time, because the Australian Government intend to bring out 70,000 Britons this year. There will be a shortfall of some 1,000 berths in the shipping available to carry those people. The Australian Government have eleven migrant ships, and their total carrying capacity in one journey is about 11,000 people. That means that during a year of about three trips they can carry about 35,000 migrants. The commercial lines which are running to Australia, and which have a carrying capacity of a little more than that—about 15,000 in one trip—provide, I believe, only a few hundred berths a year for migrants going under the assisted passages scheme. So, taking all the berths which will be available in the commercial lines and migrant ships—about 40,000–it looks as if there will be a large margin to make up if the whole 70,000 are to be taken out to Australia this year.
The United Kingdom Government can help here by providing ships, and it is extremely important that they should do so. I believe they can help in this way, because in February of this year there were just over 14,000 unemployed in the shipyards of this country. That has risen from about 8,000, the figure given at the time when we had our last debate on this subject. Could not those men be employed upon converting ships for carrying migrants? Secondly, I should like to ask His Majesty's Government whether the "Aquitania," instead of being broken up, could not have been converted to carry migrants. I should have thought that that would have teen a worth-while use for such a ship, and a worthy end to her days.
Housing and shipping are the two great bottlenecks to new settlement in the Dominions, but I believe those bottlenecks can be overcome by resolute action and the will to do it. I now come to a point of which I have given His Majesty's Government notice, and upon which should like to make a suggestion. I believe that Commonwealth migration can be successfully handled only with the

1223
co-operation of all the countries concerned in the Commonwealth, and by using the combined resources of all those countries. I should like to ask His Majesty's Government whether they would be prepared to approach the Australian, Canadian and, a little later perhaps, the New Zealand Governments to obtain their reactions to the possible appointment by each Government of representatives on a Commonwealth Migration Board. This Board, in the first place, would be a consultative and advisory body, having the object of maintaining close consultation on all migration matters between the Governments concerned—that is, the United Kingdom Government and the reception countries. Secondly, they could co-ordinate shipping and housing resources; and thirdly, they would exchange information which would be useful for migrants. I believe that such a Board would have a valuable effect in co-ordinating the efforts of the various Dominions who want migrants, and would obviate a certain amount of rivalry which must inevitably exist for the available services, such as shipping and so on.
Now I come to my last point, the question of industrial migration. It is essential in my view, that industry should play its part in migration: first, because it is only British public industry which can build up the undeveloped territories of the Dominions and, secondly, because I believe that there can be no large-scale migration unless British industry lends a hand in taking some of the people out. I believe that people can be taken out and settled far more happily and easily if houses are built for them, if arrangements are made for them, and if they go as part of an economic unit—we will say as the staff of employees of a single company. The houses can be built for the whole lot and properly organised with the resources of the company. I believe further that many people who at the moment only play with the idea of going out to Dominions, and who feel that the difficulties are too great for them, would make up their minds to go if they were offered a job in a company which was either moving out or expanding to one of the Dominions. Such a company might be able to offer them a job there and, incidentally, would help to take them out.
I tried a few months ago to work out some sort of plan by which a company could move out to the Dominion, with all its plant, and so on, and its staff—or, rather, a complete complement of its staff and all their dependants. I talked about it in Australia—perhaps a little too much, because I did not enjoy much peace afterwards: people are very keen on something of that kind, and they were interested to know about it. Such a scheme would, I believe, be worth considering. Suppose that a company concerned in the brick-making and building industry decide to move out to Australia, with staff, dependants, and so forth. The first stage would be for a sort of pioneer group of some of the people working in the company to go out first, taking prefabricated houses and machinery to a prepared site where there was factory accommodation, or at any rate a big building in which the machinery could be put. They would then install that machinery and begin to make the bricks to build the houses; and as the houses were built the rest of the employees and their dependants could go out. Such a scheme could apply equally to a company in any other kind of industry, but they would have to use prefabricated houses, instead of brick-built houses, because the brick-building potential of Australia would not be sufficient to cover them all.
A scheme of this sort, I believe, was tried about eighteen months ago, when a textile firm went out from Yorkshire to Victoria, taking all their people and their looms. One Christmas they were all working at the looms in Yorkshire, and the next Christmas they were working at the same looms in Victoria. I believe that eventually some sort of system like that must be devised and perfected, so that the whole of this migration movement can be expanded and made the really great movement and assistance to the strength of the British Commonwealth which it can be. I beg to move for Papers.
4.43 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I feel very thankful that I am the first noble Lord taking part in this debate to have the chance to tell the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, how grateful we are to him for giving us the opportunity of discussing this important Commonwealth problem, and how much we enjoyed

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listening to his well-informed and well-delivered speech. I think it was particularly valuable as a fair statement on the Australian attitude and policy in relation to migration; and it enabled us to see very clearly what, in fact, Australian needs and requirements are. I am sure the noble Lord will forgive me if I tell him that he was misinformed about one small matter which was alluded to by someone when the noble Lord was in Australia. He said, I think, that he was told that only one Cabinet Minister and only one Under-Secretary had visited Australia since 1945. I was there myself in March, 1949. At that time I was a Minister of Cabinet rank; and I know that another of my noble friends, who was also a Minister of Cabinet rank, visited Australia a short while previously. I correct what is obviously a minor point only because I should not like the impression to get around that the late Government were less convinced than other Governments that consultation at ministerial level between the Commonwealth countries is a most important aspect of Commonwealth policy. The late Government was far from remiss in this matter; and although I cannot say this definitely without an opportunity of verifying my facts, I should not be surprised to find that more Ministers have visited Australia since the war than in any corresponding period before the war. I should like, before I proceed, to congratulate my noble friend Lord Holden on his first opportunity to reply to a debate in your Lordships' House. I know what an ordeal that responsibility is. I know also that we are all looking forward most keenly and with the utmost pleasure to what he may have to tell us.
The noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, dealt with one of the senior partners in the Commonwealth, and I have no doubt that other noble Lords will follow in his steps. For my part, I shall confine myself to some of the junior partners in the Commonwealth—some of the Dependencies of the United Kingdom who have problems very similar to and no less urgent than those of the self-governing countries. I can assure the House,
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from my personal knowledge of some territories which suffer the cruel hardships of over-population and of other territories which need immigrant labour to develop their resources, that the leading official and unofficial personalities in the Colonies concerned are keenly aware of the problems which we are discussing this afternoon, and are doing their level best to arrange for a flow of population in the required direction, outward or inward. I found at the Colonial Office the utmost willingness on all occasions to give advice or to intervene with other Government Departments whenever they were approached on matters of this kind by Colonial Governments who asked them to do so. I think the authorities at home and in the Colonies deserve credit for their fine example of friendly co-operation in this field, and for the real determination with which they are trying to overcome the great difficulties which this problem presents.
I should like to say something about under-population in the Colonies. The Borneo territories—Sarawak, Brunei and North Borneo—appear to be the only wide open spaces that one can find in British South-East Asia. With a population of not more than ten persons per square mile, they are still practically empty. The local inhabitants are far too few, backward and uneducated to take full advantage of the considerable resources of these territories in minerals and timber, and of a fertile soil which will bear a variety of subsistence and cash crops, once the jungle is cleared away. I remember flying over the Klias Peninsula, just north of Jesselton, with the Governor of North Borneo, who pointed out below us an area large enough to grow sufficient rice to feed the whole population of the Colony, leaving over a substantial surplus for export.
LORD DARWEN: My Lords, in view of the Royal Commission which has been arranged for five o'clock, I think it would be your wish to adjourn now during pleasure.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION
5.0 p.m.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

Post Office and Telegraph (Money),

Army and Air Force (Annual),

Dundee Corporation (Administration and General Powers) Order Confirmation.

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

COMMONWEALTH MIGRATION
5.10 p.m.
Debate resumed.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, it seems perhaps rather a far cry to go from providing money for the Post Office to cultivating rice in Borneo, but both are the responsibility of Parliament, and I make no apology for asking your Lordships to return, in spirit, to North Borneo. I was alluding to the large area in that Colony which could be made available for the production of rice. The importance of producing more rice as a means of improving the extremely inadequate diet of the peoples of South-East Asia, and to relieve us of the necessity of providing dollars for some of the rice which is imported into our Colonies, needs no emphasis from me. But this is just one example of the wealth which British Borneo could produce with a larger and more skilled working population. I fear that unless we are able to show that we, ourselves, are well able to develop these territories without outside assistance, we shall find it hard to resist the demands of densely populated Asian countries which would like us to help them to relieve the pressure of their surplus populations. Here, in Borneo, is an opportunity for migration and settlement on a considerable scale, but I am sure that we should first make certain that the people we let in from outside will treat the local inhabitants as friends and equals, and that their loyalty to the Colony, the Mother Country, and the Commonwealth is likely to be beyond question. Those are two conditions which should be attached to the admission of outsiders on any considerable scale.
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For that reason, I believe we should be extremely ill-advised to admit, as permanent residents, a large number of Chinese, whether they come from China proper or from one of our own Dependencies in South-East Asia. The Chinese are not good mixers. They would tend, in Borneo, to become a ruling race, as the Malays have done in Sarawak. As your Lordships who have travelled in that part of the world well know already, their first loyalty, however far removed they may be from their native land, is to the Government of China. This is a particularly inconvenient attachment at the moment, because the Chinese Government is now a Communist Government, and no one would wish to introduce Communism into Borneo. When I was there two years ago, Communism was non-existent. Most of the Chinese community now living in North Borneo are earning comfortable livelihoods in Jesselton and Sandakan. In politics they are pro-Kuomintang and strongly anti-Communist. But if we were now to admit a large number of Chinese peasants to clear the jungle and work in the fields, the story might be very different indeed. I am sure the Government will agree that it should be one of the aims of our foreign and Commonwealth policy to safeguard the island of Borneo—which, as your Lordships will remember, was used by the Japanese during the war as a stepping stone to Australia and the Southern Pacific—from the risk of Communist infiltration.
I should like to ask my noble friend who is to reply on behalf of the Government if he can say whether there has been any relaxation in the restrictions on the entry of Chinese into North Borneo and to say what the intention is in regard to the admission of Chinese labour. I believe he is likely to say that further settlement of Chinese immigrants in large numbers will not he permitted. That would be a very satisfactory statement. I feel that an assurance of this kind would be particularly useful if it could be made by a Minister in a public speech on the floor of this House. But even if the Chinese have to be ruled out as settlers, it should not be difficult, I think, to recruit additional workers from other places with a surplus population. The densely populated Indonesian Republic is not far distant as distances go in the Pacific.

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There is already a small Javanese settlement in North Borneo, and the newcomers have done extremely well and are getting along admirably with the local inhabitants. But I am sure we should all prefer the settlers to come from one of the overpopulated areas within the Commonwealth rather than from a foreign country. I should like to ask my noble friend if he will be good enough to tell me whether consideration has been given to the possibility of emigration from any of the West Indian Islands to Borneo. It would be a long distance, but, in many, respects, West Indians would be extremely suitable. I think they would find conditions of life in Borneo congenial to them. After all, they are agriculturists, they live in a somewhat similar climate and there is not a big difference between the average man's standard of living in the West Indies and the standard of living in Borneo.
I should like now to turn to the other aspect of migration—migration as a means of easing the pressure of overpopulation in some of the colonies with which I am acquainted. I do not believe that there is any area in the Commonwealth which suffers more cruelly from over-population than the Islands of the West Indies. A steadily falling death rate is increasing the population of the British Caribbean at a rate which will double its numbers in fifty years. Unless we can do something to relieve this pressure, the present unsatisfactory standard of living is bound to fall, unemployment and under-employment will rise, and housing conditions, which are for the most part deplorable but gradually improving, will get even worse. I fear that there is no prospect of even temporary relief by the employment of West Indian labour in the United States or in Central or South America. Permanent settlement in foreign territories in the American Continent is out of the question. This leaves fie mainland territories of British Guiana and British Honduras the only hope of a local outlet for the surplus population of the Caribbean Islands. Your Lordships will remember that the Evans Commission went out to examine the possibilities of settlement in these territories, and produced an extremely valuable Report. The Commission estimated that the two territories might absorb about 100,000 men, women and
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children within ten years, of whom 60,000 would go to British Honduras, and 40,000 to British Guiana. But even if this programme could be carried out from A to Z, it would account for such a small proportion of the total surplus population of the area that the need for other outlets would be no less urgent than it is at the present time.
My own impression, after travelling extensively in both territories—British Guiana and British Honduras—is that it will take very much longer than ten years for anything like the 110,000 immigrants foreseen by the Evans Commission to be absorbed. This impression is borne out by the recent study made by the Colonial Development Corporation and by the Governments concerned of the extensive preparatory work that will be needed before large development schemes involving immigrant labour can be started with a reasonable chance of success. In British Guiana, basic information about the interior of the Colony is still lacking. Ambitious agricultural projects await the results of soil surveys and crop trials. The main project for the employment of immigrant labour is on cocoa plantations on the Potavo and Middle Mazavimi areas in the interior of the Colony. But it will take five years for the cocoa trees to come into bearing—as in the case of all tree crops, the period of waiting is very long—and several more before the crop trials have yielded their results.
Another prerequisite for the development of the interior of this great territory is the building of metalled roads to link up the interior with the coast. At present, goods can be carried inland beyond the navigable limits of the large rivers only by air transport. I was told when I was there about a costly experiment in bringing carcase meat by air from the Savannahs of Brazil and Venezuela to Georgetown. This method of transport for heavy goods will clearly be uneconomic, but the extension inland of the road system in the coastal belt cannot even be started without the data which further topographical and engineering surveys will provide. Immigration will also be retarded by the increase in the local population which has followed the elimination of malaria by the use of D.D.T.
In British Honduras, the prospect of settlement on a large scale in the near future seems no less remote. The main

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project recommended by the Evans Commission for employing immigrant labour was an expanded sugar industry in the Northern District. The Colonial Development Corporation, who are obviously the body best fitted to undertake this work, have not at present seemed inclined to take up this proposal, although no doubt they will reconsider the whole matter in the light of recent events. The devaluation of the dollar currency in British Honduras and the welcome allocation to the Colony of a share of 18,000 tons in the British guaranteed market for West Indian sugar have completely altered the commercial outlook. Now, for the first time in the history of the Colony, this important industry has a chance of making real progress. I should like, if I may, to congratulate my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Government on their political foresight in offering this allocation of sugar to British Honduras. Even more important than future benefits which it will give to the economy of the Colony is the immediate impact of this gesture of good will from the Mother Country on local public opinion.
But, of course, even if this sugar project is now proceeded with, it will be a number of years before labour from outside the Colony is required. In British Honduras, as in British Guiana, a vast amount of road building will be necessary before large schemes of agricultural development in the interior of the Colony can be made practicable. Moreover, the decline of the important forest industries of chicle and mahogany is causing serious unemployment. It looks as if the number of local unemployed will provide sufficient labour for all schemes of agricultural development and public works that are likely to be in hand in the near future. I fear that the inescapable conclusion that any objectively-minded person will draw from these facts is that the sound economic development of both territories will be a slow and a costly business. It will demand a willingness on the part of public and private enterprise in these Colonies, and on the part of the Colonial Governments, to spend much more time and effort on preliminary and preparatory stages of economic development. We in this country, for our part, must be willing to spend more public money without looking for an immediate
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result. But if all concerned, both here and out there, have enough patience and good will, there will be the immense satisfaction of having developed these backward areas on sound lines which will bring about lasting benefit to their inhabitants and will offer unrivalled opportunities for migration and settlement to their island neighbours.
I should like in conclusion to say a few words about Malta. I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch has not been a member of your Lordships' House long enough to feel the confidence that is required to address the House on this subject, because he is far better qualified to do so than I am. The problem of migration is vital to the future of Malta. I think everyone will agree that emigration offers the only hope of a reasonable standard of living and employment for the people of Malta. The economic outlook for Malta is extremely disturbing. Two-thirds of the adult workers depend for their employment directly or indirectly on the dockyards, and on a reconstruction grant given by us after the war which is rapidly running out. The prospect of unemployment is made even more serious by the expanding population of the island: it is increasing at the rate of 8,000 persons a year. So far, the best year for emigration has only just kept pace with the annual rate of increase in the population. The target for next year is 12,000 emigrants. I am sure the Government will do everything in their power to help Malta to achieve and sustain an annual outflow of emigrants at least at this level of 12,000 a year.
5.26 p.m.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, I do not think we could discuss a more important topic than this at the present time. I should like to limit my remarks to the Dominions and to our relations with what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has called the great self-governing countries. In their case the problem is one of under-population. It is easy to blind ourselves to the fact that the nature of Commonwealth relations is changing. I have not been in the Dominions since before the war, which I know is a disadvantage, but I am sure the trends that I sensed then have since been accentuated rather than the opposite.
As my noble friend Lord Fairfax of Cameron so ably and brilliantly showed,

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the major issue is that of industrial immigration and of how Dominion industry in future is going to fit in with that of the Mother Country. It is an extremely knotty problem. Every country likes, if possible, to remain in the circumstances to which its people have been accustomed. This country has been the main workshop of the British Commonwealth and I see no reason whatever why we should not continue to be one of the main workshops. But I believe that it will be a completely false picture, and one out of perspective, if we think we are going to remain in the old position in relation to the Dominions. These countries developed as primary producing countries, and they have done an excellent job on this footing. But as they grew up, it was only natural that they should want to do their own industrial work. This presents a serious problem for our industry which, in the nature of things, would like to remain as it has been. We should like to continue to import vast quantities of food which the overseas Dominions produce for export. We should face the possibility, though I know it is difficult, that in the long run we may not be able to survive with 50,000,000 people living in this country. Moreover, there is the question whether the retention of such a population is desirable.
I should like to link this whole question with the farming issue. The traditional picture of the Commonwealth—though this is rapidly ceasing to be true—is that it consists of wide open spaces; the immigrant, it is assumed, naturally goes to a farm. If he is fed up with city life his opportunity may be out there. In my view, however, emigration from here to the Dominions—particularly to the South-West Pacific Dominions of Australia and New Zealand—will probably in future be largely industrial. The good land is probably already settled and being farmed, and it is fitting that this should be so. But is it not possible that this country and the Dominions can solve together a problem that none of them could solve on their own—namely, the problem of balance between occupation in industry and occupation in agriculture?
I do not want to express too forcibly my views on what ought to happen, and on what scale. It is possible that in terms of the Commonwealth, we are discussing an issue of the greatest importance. In
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the course of leading the industrial revolution, not only in the Commonwealth but in the world, this country has grown completely lopsided, and a good many of our present problems are tied up with this lopsidedness under the changed and changing trade position largely brought about by the war. If we are to secure a more even balance of occupation this country is definitely over-populated, quite apart from the question of whether we can survive with a 50,000,000 population—which depends on improving our export trade to a level greater even than it was before the war. I saw in New Zealand before the war a strong instinct towards urban development. I do not think that is an idea confined to a Socialist Government (I do not know what effect on immigration into Australia and New Zealand the fact that they no longer have Labour Governments has had), but I think this is a bigger issue than any one Government, either here or there, can tackle. The Dominions should have larger home markets. It is not just an over-strong sense of insecurity that will lead them to have far larger populations.
The noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, mentioned the difficulties of shipping. I wonder how important the refrigeration ship will remain as regards Imperial trade? Is it not possible for ships bringing food here to make just one trip to take people to the new places? The skill of our people lies in urban techniques rather than in agriculture. If emigration is to take place on a large scale it will be much easier for people to move from industry here to industry in new places, rather than that attempts should be made to persuade the emir rains to become farmers. Opinion in New Zealand of people who want to start on farms when they come from cities is not very high. Any movement at all is worrying to people, and to move half way round the earth and start a new life is extremely difficult. If emigration is to come about on a large scale—which I am inclined to feel should happen—then the emphasis must be on emigration to industry. That would mean that agriculture here would have a chance of recovering from the industrial revolution, during which we looked to our ships, rather than to our ploughs for our salvation. It is not surprising that farmers here are dubious as to what will happen. They know that things are different in war time, and that

1235
for several years after a war they are only, slowly let down. I do not think we shall let down the British farmer again, and most certainly it is the last thing we ought to do; yet it is obvious that there is a great amount of opinion which would be prepared to do so, in the interests of cheap food from abroad, if more of it became available.
An increase in Dominion population, I should imagine, would mean a lessening of trade within the Empire. I gathered that Lord Fairfax implied that an increase of Dominion population might be accompanied by an increase of trade between the Mother Country and the Dominions, but I should imagine that it would mean a lessening of trade in that direction. I also disagree on the point that immigration to the Dominions should be limited to people from this country. I am sure that in Western Europe there are a great many people who would like to go to Australia, New Zealand or Canada. With regard to the percentage of British stock, I would point out that we know that at the present time only 49 per cent. of the population of Canada are people whose ancestors' homes were originally in this country. I do not think the community is made any less British, because these are people who have been absorbed into a fundamentally British way of life. I know it is particularly difficult for Australia and New Zealand, who have such high percentages of British stock, to change their ideas—naturally they want new Britons in their country. But, surely, they ought to be prepared to mix their population a little more.
I thought it was a brilliant idea of the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, that people should emigrate under the wings of a firm. That, after all, is what early settlement was like. People on one ship were a cross-section: they decided that they wanted certain carpenters on the ship, and they set about building their homes. The tragedy of the present position is that the pioneering spirits among people arriving in New Zealand or Australia—perhaps particularly there—meet almost as much red tape as we have here. It is not merely a question of landing, hacking down some piece of bush, making a home and sowing some corn which you hope will come up next year.
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I should like to raise the whole question of urbanisation in the Commonwealth—the drift to the towns. That is not only something we witness here, but something which exists in the primary producing countries, and is part of their desire to change their nature. I secured a job on a New Zealand farm only because of the drift to the towns. The farmer was carrying on a farm of 250 acres with no help whatever. It was a great opportunity for me, which otherwise I should not have had, and I was brought very much into his counsel. It was a case, as he said, of "the glitter of the other job." Even though towns like Auckland, Wellington, Sydney and Melbourne are not by our standards very large—and particularly Auckland and Wellington—they are, nevertheless, an attraction. There was a talk on the wireless the other night by a professor of geography at London University about the tendency for us not only to go to towns, but to go to the biggest towns; and he referred to the fact that Los Angeles has now graduated to the 1,000,000 mark as if that were an excellent thing in itself. We need to think deeper than the mere question of size.
If a large number of people go from this country to the Dominions—and emigration will have to be encouraged by the Government—in one sense this country becomes less powerful. I think that it is the population of the Commonwealth which is vital, and I do not think greatness is governed by numbers. We do not refer to New Zealand as otherwise than a great country because she has only 1,500,000 people. Therefore, my plea is that we should think deeply about the whole question of the relationship of agriculture to industry, and in thinking of migration realise that it is not a question of the open spaces being exactly what they have been in the past.
5.42 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I am very glad indeed that the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, has raised this matter this afternoon. I think it is of great importance, and high time that we had a debate in this House on migration. I may say that I agree with nearly everything he said. If I go over some of the same ground with regard to Australia, I hope noble Lords will forgive me, because I have lived in that country for eight years,

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before, during and since the war, and on one or two facets I may be able to throw a little useful light. I should also like to say how glad I am that the noble Lord, Lord Holden, is to reply, and I am sure that we are all delighted to see him in his new position on the Front Bench. If there is a noble Lord in this House who is filled with human kindness and courtesy, it is the noble Lord, Lord Holden, and I ant sure that we shall get a very courteous and helpful answer from him to-day.
I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, when he speaks in such a moving way of hospitality and loyalty in Australia. Indeed, I may go so far as to say that it follows almost inversely that the further you go in the "outback," the greater it becomes. Some years ago I visited a small Australian town at the time of the annual show, and I was persuaded rashly to enter for the steer-riding contest. I think I remained upon the steer's back for precisely twenty-four seconds. But it had another reward, for which I was not prepared: I became a sort of local hero, and the long day and night ended in the local hotel—the bar of which should have closed at 6 p.m.—at 2 o'clock in the morning, when the uniformed police sergeant hammered the bar and said: "I don't think there is anybody in the town who has not had a drink with the Commander. If there is, speak up, otherwise we will close the bar."
I understand that Australia's aim is 200,000 migrants a year, of which they hope to get 100,000 from this country. I am told that no less than 75,000 sponsored migrants have actually sailed from this country since the war. That is, of course, apart from those who have gone out on their own resources. As the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, has so rightly said, the chief limitations are housing and shipping. At the moment, I think the emphasis is slightly more on housing than shipping, but the indications are that in a short time it will be reversed. I should like to correct him on one point—what the Australian requires is not a bath but a shower. Particularly from the economic and from the defence point of view, I think migration to our great Dominions should have every support from the British Government, and I entirely agree that the migration of industries is of the highest importance. I should like to put one other side of that
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matter which the noble Lord did not mention, and that is the moving out of a subsidiary of an industry in this country and its grafting on to an existing Australian industry. After all, if it is a gamble for an individual to go out to a new country with no particular ties, it is perhaps equally precarious for a British industry to start from nothing in the Dominions. But the fathering of a new industry by an existing Australian industry I think would be very helpful. That has been successfully carried out in several cases. I need mention only one, and that is the Fairey Aviation Company, now supplying aircraft to the Fleet Air Ann of the Royal Australian Navy. They grafted themselves on to the Clyde Engineering Company at Sydney. The noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, also emphasised this point of industrial migration.
I feel quite confident that Australia can absorb the numbers I indicated earlier, provided they are of the right material. Sometimes, however, extravagant claims of the possibilities of development in Australia are made—not in official quarters—which are damaging and unfortunate. I read in the paper the other day that the Dean of Canterbury, on leaving Australia, stated that there was no part of Australia which could not be developed. I do not know whether the reverend Dean went to Central Australia during his short visit, but I should very much doubt it. If he did, I should like to see him trying to develop the Nullabor Plain or the barren mountain ranges in the Northern part of South Australia. I am sure he would have his work cut out and would become very red in the face, in the bargain.
There is one question that I should like to ask our Australian friends, and that is: Is enough being done for the women in the country districts? Many sheep stations now require more men and are Short-handed, but they find that they cannot engage them because there is no domestic help or anybody to cook for them. In the old days the big stud properties, where the best Marino sheep were bred, used to have comfortable quarters where probably ten to twelve jackaroos were housed, fed and trained, and then went out to the smaller places with real knowledge of the highest class of sheep. In the past few months I have written to seven or eight of my friends

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who have big sheep properties in Australia, asking them if they could take a young man who was anxious to learn the business of sheep breeding. In each case the answer has been the same: "My wife has to do nearly all the cooking without help." That really means something—cooking for the men at six o'clock in the morning to give them a breakfast before they go out to the paddocks. The answers went on: "We have the quarters on the place, but we simply have not the domestic help to cope with jackaroos." That is a very important point. Another aspect is the question of electric power, which the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, mentioned. In that way, the refrigerator, which is so necessary in that climate, can be provided, and that will make the domestic chores easier. It is a good life for a man in the country, but sometimes, through the possibility of the housewife not being able to cope with the loneliness and difficulties, there may be failures.
Now I turn particularly to an organisation on the committee of which I serve—I refer to the Big Brother Movement. As probably most noble Lords are aware, we send out young lads of about seventeen. On arrival in Australia, each of them is allocated a "big brother," who acts in loco parentis and advises the boy about his finances, possibly asks him to stay with him, and writes to him from time to time. We sent out 2,000 lads before the war, and I am glad to say that we have sent no fewer than 350 since the war. We now have a training farm to which they can go, so as to get acclimatised before they go to their jobs in the country. We have started in New South Wales and Tasmania, and we hope to extend to other States if the finances and the supply of young lads permit. Most of these boys have done extremely well. There is more than one "ex-little brother" on our Sydney committee now; and many of them had excellent records in the Australian Forces during the war. We have already had letters and reports from post-war "little brothers" which show that they are "up to scratch."
I have here a letter from a boy from Peterborough. He has already put into the savings bank £150. He writes:
"I think I have the best boss in New South Wales. I am like one of the family here and I do really like the work."
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Another letter is from a Fareham boy. He has already banked £130 since he went in 1948 and has started a nursery garden on his own behalf. His employer cannot speak too highly of him. One more comes from York. This boy went out in February of last year. He has already saved £100. He is contented with rural life and is making extra money during the week-end by trapping rabbits and selling the skins. This shows that the majority of the lads sent out since the War have followed ably in the footsteps of their predecessors. Moreover, industry in New South Wales is asking for "little brothers"; and next week, the first party going out will have ten boys for industry going with it. The type of migrant we are sending is particularly valuable at the present time, because no housing is needed; in each case, the employer guarantees to house the lad when he arrives.
We feel that the movement is doing a good and useful job. But what encouragement are we getting from the Government? I regret to say, very little. We consider that under the Empire Settlement Act of 1922, the provisions of which have been extended to 1952, we are entitled to receive support. We had grants before the war, from the inception of the movement in 1925 up to 1932, when migration stopped because of the depression, and these grants were renewed in the year 1938–39. In 1939 it was agreed that three-quarters of the expenses of the London end were to be borne by the two Governments, British and Australian, up to a limit of £900 per annum.
What has happened since the war? Our Chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Huntingfield, and myself negotiated with both the Australian and the British Governments. The Australian Government nave us a grant of £450 for the year 1948–49, but that is the only grant we have had from the other side. Last year, after protracted negotiations, the Commonwealth Office gave us £450–their share of the £900 for one year, 1949–50. We were at least entitled to feel that, if circumstances continued the same, those grants would be continued. Obviously, they must be on an annual basis, since that is the Government's financial system, but one naturally assumed that they would go on. Imagine our surprise and disappointment when, only last week, we received from the

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Commonwealth Relations Office a very curt letter saying that owing to the necessity for economy the £450 would not be paid this year. It is really impossible, with the increasing commitments we have, to budget for the future, if our income is to be so uncertain. We have, of course, a number of generous private subscribers, but owing to high taxation and such considerations there has naturally been a falling off. I should therefore like to ask the noble Lord the specific question of which I have given him notice: What is the policy of the Government with regard to these grants, and can the recent decision to cut us off for this year be reconsidered? I hope I have not kept your Lordships too long, but I have a very genuine love of Australia, in which country I spent some of the happiest years of my life; therefore it gives me great pleasure to plead the cause of that Dominion in this House.
5.56 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, I am glad of the opportunity to take part in this debate. I too have been in Australia and I only wish that I could have taken with me the noble Lord who opened this debate. At the time I should have been able to do it easily, for judging by the particulars given in books of reference the noble Lord was of such an age that I could have carried him on my arm. I went all over Australia, with the exception of the isolated island just to the south, and I can fully confirm everything the noble Lord has said about the great hospitality given to one as a visitor to Australia. I can cordially recommend any other noble Lord who wishes to experience great hospitality to visit Australia. It is true that there are certain dangers in that hospitality—they have already been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Gifford. I confess that, although I consider I am usually a normally courageous man, I did on one occasion flee. At the time I was in an Australian hotel; and when I saw the large number of glasses laid out I felt some trepidation. I knew that the custom there is that you have not only to pay for but to drink the contents of all the glasses. I fled the scene—not, let me say, on pecuniary but on physical grounds; I know that I could not stand up to it. But there is no doubt that the Australians are extraordinarily
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hospitable and altogether delightful people.
I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, was followed by my noble friend Lord Listowel, because the problem of migration is no longer the kind of problem which it was in earlier days, when migration was more popular in after-dinner speeches than in the actual carrying out of any policy—and I say that of all Parties. Speeches of the most generous and full-blooded nature used to be made about the desirability of migration, but in point of fact, under the Empire Settlement Act of 1922 (which, if I remember aright, was an Act brought in by Mr. Amery) very little money was allowed to be spent, at least for a very long period. What it is now I do not know. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Holden, can tell us what amount of money is now being spent on migration. In the early 1920's, some time after the Empire Act was in operation, there were a number of people going to Australia. Some of them were received; some of them were finding interesting employment, and some of them were having an extremely hard time, because the arrangements, either in this country or in Australia, were not well made. That was the time when the noble Viscount, Lord Bruce of Melbourne, was Prime Minister of Australia. It was he who extended that great hospitality to me. I observe that he is not here to-day, but I am sure he would confirm what I am saying.
Another thing about Australia, which the noble Lord who opened the debate has mentioned, is that Australia was then, and is now, comprised largely of an industrial civilisation, a town civilisation. The great proportion of all people in Australia live in towns. Many of them, I remember when I was there, had never seen a kangaroo, except in a zoo. I myself went North by air, a most adventurous thing to do in those days because the aeroplanes used were converted Bristol fighters from the First World War. I thought it was curious that rain should be leaking from the top. What really was coming down was petrol, which was rather dangerous—though as I was the only passenger perhaps it did not much matter. But when I went up to the North of Western Australia, to the vast sheep stations which existed then, and which I presume exist now, I saw masses of kangaroos; on one

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sheep station alone there were 80,000. Yet a great many people in the towns had never seen them, or emus, which are also plentiful.
The point is that since those days we have broadened our horizon with regard to migration. We have not only to deal with supplying the needs of the white population but we have also to deal with the Colonial territories, and in some ways the problem there is even more urgent than it is in the Commonwealth. For instance, the West Indies are grossly over-populated. The standard of life of many of the people there is low. Their standard of health, although improving now, is not good. Of course, I am referring to the islands of the West Indies, but in British Guiana and British Honduras also difficult conditions prevail. There the need is for more population. It has been well known for twenty to thirty years that they have badly needed more population, but it is difficult to do anything about it.
There is also the question of the vast populations of the tropical belt in Africa. If you take a belt right across Africa, from West to East, you have there a population of about 45,000,000 people. The populations of these vast territories in Africa in the past were kept under control by the agency of nature, through diseases. At the present time, by reason of the tremendous advance in medical knowledge which has taken place during the last few years, and particularly under the stimulation of the needs of war, we have found means of completely controlling malaria. That was brought to my attention when I was visiting Salonika recently, some time before our troops left that area. Salonika in Greece during the First World War was synonymous with malignant malaria, and almost all the troops who went there, if they had malaria, had malignant malaria. The disease rate and the death rate were very heavy indeed. When I went there a year or two ago, there were no cases of malaria at all amongst the troops. I recently had a talk with the chief medical officer of the Colonial Office who has been visiting a number of territories, including those of the Overseas Food Corporation. In many of those areas in the interior of that tropical belt of Africa to which I have referred, malaria and a good many other tropical diseases had been eliminated. That will mean that in all those areas
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there will be a great increase in population.
What are we going to do with them? It is a serious problem. We certainly cannot refuse to extend the benefits of medical knowledge that we have to those people merely because it is inconvenient to provide them with means of subsistence. That would be an inhuman and Hitlerite way of acting. Therefore it is essential to provide them with places in which to live. I fully appreciate the reasons why the Australians wish to continue their policy of a white Australia but, if they are to maintain and justify that in the future, they will have to secure a very great increase of white population. That is one of the reasons why I consider it desirable that there should be that increase in population. I remember consulting economists in the matter when I was in Australia years ago, and one or two authorities agreed that the maximum population that Australia at some time in the future, at a date unspecified, could of itself support from its own resources was something like 40,000,000. As no doubt your Lordships know, although Australia is almost exactly the same size as the United States it has an unfertile interior, and only those with the prolific imaginations of people who are not properly oriented could imagine life on the sandy interior of the Nullarbor Plain and other places in the interior of Australia. No doubt, with scientific irrigation even in those areas something might be done, but at present it looks as though it will be a long time before those areas can grow enough to support even a few people.
The problem is made very urgent by the fact that the world is shrinking so rapidly. It is not confined to this country; it is not confined to the British Commonwealth. And that reminds me, the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax of Cameron, said that people in Australia complained that there was nothing between the Suez Canal and Port Darwin. They seem to have forgotten Pakistan and India, both places extremely important from the defence point of view. They seem to have forgotten Colombo, which I visited fairly recently and which is not a station to be neglected from the point of view of defence. They also seem to have forgotten Singapore—in fact, the noble Lord mentioned that Singapore was no longer

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very important. At all events, he did not think much of Singapore. Also they seemed to think that Hong Kong was of no importance. I went there especially for the purpose of looking at the medical side of the military formations. I did not gather that impression at all. This station is important and of the greatest use.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: I should like to correct the noble Lord on one point. It was my suggestion, and not something that was suggested to me in Australia. I take the responsibility for that opinion.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: I hope the noble Lord will look into the facts a little more closely and revise his opinion, because it gives a wrong and incorrect view of the defence arrangements of that vast stretch of territory. I do not think his impression can be described as being really accurate.
We cannot solve this great problem of the distribution of population in the world in accordance with the needs of the population and with the capacity of different countries to absorb it. I do not think we can solve that problem on the basis even of such a great confederation of nations as the British Commonwealth of nations and our Colonial possessions and dependencies. It is an immense problem. I agree with the noble Lord that as this is the leading group of nations we owe a special responsibility to the world. We have great opportunities and possibilities before us. One of those possibilities is to show what we ourselves have done in the past by migration; and what we can do in the future with regard to the redistribution of the population in such territories as those referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. We could also call a conference under the auspices of the United Nations on this question of the redistribution of world population. I believe that to be a matter of the most urgent importance, because unless we do that we shall have the pressure of tremendous populations such as we have in China. I know the difficulties that exist in the redistribution of the people in China, the difficulties at the present time in the West Indies, and also those in Australia with regard to absorbing other populations. Australia is absorbing large numbers of Italians and only a comparatively small proportion of people from
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this country. I do not believe that this problem can be solved except on the 'basis of a conference at United Nations level. I hope that one result of our discussion this evening will be that the suggestion will go out that such a conference should be called to help to solve one of the world's greatest problems.
6.12 p.m.
LORD BADEN-POWELL: My Lords, I am sure we are all very grateful to my noble friend Lord Fairfax for introducing this Motion, which concerns a subject of the greatest importance in these days of so much uncertainty. I should like also to say how glad we shall be to hear the noble Lord, Lord Holden, address us at the end of this debate. Migration to the Colonies has, of course, been going on steadily for very many years, but never perhaps on the same scale as at the present time, particularly since the end of the war. Let us for a moment consider why it is that people suddenly decide to uproot themselves from the sort of life which they and their ancestors have hitherto led in this country, to take up residence in some far-flung corner of our Commonwealth and Empire. One does not have to look far for an answer to that question. These people are restless after the war, or may be dissatisfied in one way or another with conditions in England—be it the high rate of taxation or the restrictions with which they are perpetually confronted. It dawns upon them that if they go abroad they can have a better chance of life, and at the same time be of some benefit to whatever under-developed part of the Empire they may decide to make their future home.
Many such people, however, possibly because they lack the true pioneering spirit and find conditions "out there" very different from those they have known here all their lives, are disillusioned and soon return to England. All seem attracted by the prospects of wide, open spaces and unlimited sunshine; but do they realise that a great deal of both brain and brawn is necessary if those wide, open spaces are to be made into productive farmland, or covered in part with thriving towns and villages? 'The wise would-be emigrant, having carefully weighed up all the pros and cons, and found out all he car about his future homeland, will probably turn out to be the best type of settler as he has at least

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the ability to think and act for himself. Many of our Colonies, still more or less in their infancy, cry out for immigrants of the right type, who are prepared to emulate the determined efforts of the earlier pioneers and are not afraid of constant hard work.
The noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, has already given us some interesting facts and figures concerning migration to Australia, and we have heard some enlightening information on the subject in respect of other parts of the Empire from the five noble Lords who have so far spoken in this debate. May I, then, impose for a few minutes upon your Lordships' time to tell you something about present-day migration to the self-governing Colony of Southern Rhodesia? As some of your Lordships are aware, I have myself lived and worked in that rapidly developing country for some fifteen years and, until I left there last May, was able to observe at first-hand the progress of immigration. It is significant that during the last ten years, and more especially since the end of the war, the European population of the Colony has more than doubled itself and to-day numbers about 125,000, which is slightly less than that of a town the size of, say, Huddersfield. The white population of the capital city, Salisbury, with which the noble Marquess of that name has such a close connection, has actually trebled. During the war years, large numbers of Royal Air Force personnel received their training in Southern Rhodesia as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme. I regret I am unable to ascertain just how many of these men have, on demobilisation, found their way back to the Colony, but I have reason to believe that many have done so and are, indeed, still doing so. Furthermore, all who served out there in whatever capacity will have told their friends and relations here about life in that young and rising country, with consequent publicity value to the Colony itself.
By virtue of wise and careful selection of immigrants in reasonably limited numbers, Southern Rhodesia has had, and is still enjoying, a steady influx of settlers of the right type, in all walks of life. The principal limitation upon the number of immigrants admitted—and they are entering the Colony at the rate of about 1,000 per month—is the universal
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problem of housing. In consequence, preferential admission was at one period accorded to large numbers of men in all branches of the building industry, to their own advantage and to that of the Colony as a whole. Such men are, in fact, still excepted from most of the present immigration regulations, their entry being sponsored individually by the National Building and Housing Board. All the six municipalities in the Colony have extended their boundaries, and widespread building operations are constantly in progress within them and, to a lesser degree, the smaller centres. Despite such large-scale building work, however, housing is still a major difficulty, and hotel and other accommodation, except for very short periods—and that after booking well in advance—is almost unobtainable. Once this problem has been surmounted, it seems there will be no other reason for limiting the regular inflow of new immigrants. There is ample opportunity for anyone with energy and initiative, and at present there is virtually no unemployment amongst Europeans. All the unskilled and most of the semiskilled labour is done by Africans, which means that all European immigrants should be thoroughly competent in their own particular trades or professions if they are to hold their own against any possible African competition.
At this stage, I feel it might be of interest if I were to quote you a few immigration figures. In 1939 3,338 persons entered the Colony, but last year that number rose to 14,155. Even that figure, however, was a decrease of 3,000 on the 1948 total, which was an all-time record. An analysis of the 1949 total is interesting: 7,641 were British, born in the United Kingdom; 5,173 were British, born in the Union of South Africa; and 550 came from other parts of the Commonwealth. Those born in foreign countries numbered 207, and 121 were naturalised persons. Aliens, Asiatics and coloureds numbered, respectively, 404, 53 and 6. Of the 1948 immigrants, those who came direct from the United Kingdom out-numbered those from the Union of South Africa by nearly two to one. Industrial classification of the "gainfully employed" immigrants during 1949 was as follows: public service, 2,238 (including 1,082 Royal Air Force, 1,012 entering Government service, and 144

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others, mainly municipal employees); manufacturing, 990; building and construction, 794; commerce and finance, 727; transport and communications, 678; agriculture, 508; professions, entertainment And sport, 370; mining, 194; personal service, 187; and other industries 53. "Not gainfully employed" immigrants, who numbered 7,416, were mainly dependants. In the Rhodesian Parliament, on April 18 this year, the Minister of Finance, in his Budget speech, said:
"In view of the rapid progress in the building of factories, shops and offices, the record import of industrial machinery in 1949, and the continued expansion of the Rhodesia railways, the building industry and farming industry, and with unemployment virtually nil, it must be obvious to the House that a heavy influx of immigrants will be required during the present year to fill urgent vacancies in all walks of life in the Colony. It is quite impracticable to import capital without, at the same time, importing labour."
Your Lordships will realise from what I have so far said that there are enormous potentialities to be realised in Southern Rhodesia. The colony is 150,133 square miles in extent—nearly the size of Germany—and there is thus ample space for many thousands more people. With the steady influx of immigrants at the rate of a thousand a month, the financial resources of the Colony are also growing. Let me quote a few figures on this point. In 1923–24, the revenue of Southern Rhodesia stood at only £1,500,000, increased five years later by another £1,000,000. In 1938–39 it stood at £3,500,000, and by 1948–49 had increased to £13,575,468. The Colony financed her not inconsiderable war effort entirely from her own resources, and was, indeed, even able to develop her administration and civilian services at the same time. This all points towards the extremely wise and far-sighted policy of the Southern Rhodesia Government, under its most able Prime Minister, Sir Godfrey Huggins. In conclusion, I should like to sum up all I have said this afternoon, by quoting Sir Godfrey, who, on one occasion, said:
"Southern Rhodesia is no place for men and women without skill of either hand or brain, nor is it a place for people who expect to be molly-coddled through life. But for those who are independent and self-reliant, prepared to stand solidly on their own two feet, it is a grand country. We believe that there will be development and expansion in all directions in Southern Rhodesia. offering opportunities for far more than our present limited European population; and for the man
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who is prepared to work and 'take a chance' there will be ample scope—so long as he bears in mind that, although we have many amenities, on the whole this country must be regarded as still in the pioneering stage."
6.26 p.m.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords, I should like to add my own words to those of speakers who have already spoken congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax of Cameron, on the speech which he made, and also thanking him for the opportunity which he has given us of devoting ourselves to this subject to-day. I think that anyone who has listened to this debate cannot nave failed to be struck by the very high measure of agreement that all speakers have shown, and struck also by the absolutely non-Party character of this afternoon's discussions. Although the debate has ranged over a great many countries of the world, nobody has spoken of problems in any country of which he has not personal knowledge, and fairly recent knowledge at that.
My noble friend Lord Fairfax of Cameron, in his opening speech, dealt with the question of how we might strengthen the sinews of the Commonwealth in the spheres of defence, industry and economy through controlling, helping and canalising the flow of emigrants from this country. He spoke of our problem here in the United Kingdom, of our large population and of its vulnerability, and also of the pressure of European refugees seeking an outlet. He went into the progress made, and, in great detail, underlined the difficulties which we face. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Holden, when he comes to reply—and we shall wish him well in this his maiden speech as a Government spokesman—will agree with me that for his first time at the Government dispatch box he has a debate of the first magnitude to deal with.
Before I go any further into the general theme of my noble friend Lord Fairfax of Cameron, I should like to say a word on the interesting speeches which have been made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and by the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest. Both these noble Lords drew our attention to the Colonies. The noble Earl spoke of those which are still under-developed and under-populated, and which have a great future ahead of them if more people can be found to develop

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their resources. I am sure he will agree with me, and with my noble friend, that in any kind of movement of that sort which this country might stimulate, the two tests would be whether the country of adoption was willing to receive those immigrants from outside, and whether those immigrants were of such race or such sort as were likely to become good citizens of the country to which they went. He and Lord Haden-Guest mentioned the fearful problem of overpopulation. When you look at it—and it has been much debated in the parliaments of the world—you see little that is not dwarfed into insignificance by the awful problem of populations marching ahead of production. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, cited the cases of various countries where the people are so thick upon the ground that it is hard for them to maintain a reasonable standard of living. He could have drawn the picture in much grimmer lines, and I am afraid the instances which he quoted will be paralleled by others in a far shorter time than he mentioned, in these countries that lie within our purview in the British Commonwealth and Empire. It is hard to see that there can be any other solution to this problem of over-crowding than settlement and migration on the lines of which he spoke.
In the remarks which I have to make to your Lordships, I am going to confine myself to what I suggest we in the United Kingdom can do to assist these other countries of the Commonwealth to build up their strength, by making available to them those of our citizens who wish to go to spend their lives there. As several noble Lords have already remarked, there is a changed outlook in the world. Emigration is now widely accepted among all Parties in this country. It is now widely agreed that the fact that round about five-sevenths of the white British race live in about one-ninetieth part of their territories is a cause for great misgiving, in view of the dangers which we face. The last war has shown the awful hazards with which vast countries with tiny populations can be beset. The last three decades have shown the buffets of boom and slump, the awful catastrophes of nature and the inroads they can make on economies which are based entirely on the products of the soil. No wonder those countries seek our settlers,
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and seek a broader basis for their economies in order to strengthen themselves against these dangers.
As the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, has rightly said, a new pattern is evolving. The redistribution of the British race is a great challenge to our generation. If we do it successfully, stability may be ours for decades to come. If we do not, then it is hard to see that we can have any future to which to look forward. Lord Haden-Guest said he thought that this problem was the concern of the rest of the world, and one of such gigantic scope that it could not be settled below U.N.O. level. I do not entirely disagree with that, but this afternoon I should like to confine the discussion to that part of the world in which we can actually change the destinies of mankind.
As I have said, most people now entirely agree with the idea of migration. But it would be a dull world if we all thought alike. I am sometimes astonished to hear men, highly thought of in other spheres, put forward false and flimsy arguments to oppose this conception. One is that this island is either defensible or it is not. If it is defensible, it is argued, let us all stay here; but if it is not, let us all quit and leave it. I think that is a very flimsy argument. Another argument is that if we find ourselves on the eve of an atomic war, we must quickly get rid of several millions of our population to the distant parts of the Commonwealth. What could be worse rubbish than that? We shall only too likely be faced with an atomic war, and there will be no eve and no dusk; we shall be plunged from daylight to darkness if we are not fully prepared, and prepared a long time ahead. Others object to this conception because they say that if we encourage emigration on a large scale, we lose to this country more and more of those who produce, and leave fewer and fewer to support more and more who are either too young or too old to contribute. There is no substance in that argument, because every Dominion with whom we have made arrangements in this sphere has agreed to take a cross-section of our citizens.
To-night we are discussing mainly how we are going to assist the other countries of the Commonwealth by the flow of our citizens to become their citizens. It is always important to remember that migration never has been, and never will

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be, a completely one-way flow. It is a "tide in the affairs of men" which has both an ebb and a flow. In 1930, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa felt the slump rather later than we did; but when they did, many of their young men came to Britain to seek their fortunes, instead of the other way round, and those who came out-numbered those who went. Then, when the last war started, more than one quarter of the R.A.F. was Canadian. This is not emigration in the sense in which the word would have been understood ten years ago; it is something different. As the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest, said, it is a new concept. It is a strategic re-deployment of our citizens. And this is not only the task of the citizens themselves, but the high task of Governments. It requires long-term planning of a kind which cannot be turned on and off at will like a tap, at short notice.
It is eighteen months-odd since we last debated this subject. The Government then greatly heartened us on this side by subscribing in no unmeasured terms to the view that in this country we should encourage emigration so far as lay in our power, and I should like to hear those same terms of reassurance from the noble Lord, Lord Holden, to-night, if he feels he can make them. There were no lack of volunteers for the reasons which the noble Lord, Lord Baden-Powell, has given, and for others too. What has happened in the last year? Take Canada, for example. Over 362,000 human souls went to Canada between VE-Day and 1949, and just over 160,000 were from Great Britain. But in the last year a blight has fallen. The figures of emigration from Britain to Canada have dropped 52 per cent. It is not through lack of willingness of people to go, and not through lack of willingness on the part of Canada to receive them.
While by no means belittling the importance of the other countries mentioned, and others still not mentioned, I should like to concentrate on the two great countries of Australia and Canada, because nearly all the problems are to be found within that purview and in such a mammoth size that they can be more easily seen and more easily examined. In Australia the problem of getting British immigrants is twofold, and both of them have been discussed to-night. They are
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shipping and housing, and noble Lords who know much more about both those things than I do have spoken on them. What is the shipping situation in this country? I should be immensely grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Holden, would shed some light on it. I gather, purely as a layman, that we lost in the last war 11,000,000 tons of shipping, which repair and replacement has cut down to something like a net loss of 7,000,000 tons. Since then we have been building more ships in this country than the rest of the world put together—a matter for great congratulation. But now ship-building is beginning to taper off. Pools of unemployment are beginning to appear in the shipyards. Where do we go from here? Because for emigration and other needs we regard as vital, we still lack shipping.
In connection with emigration to Australia, I should like to ask the noble Lord this question. When the scheme between our Government and the Government of Australia for jointly paid passages of intending emigrants was made, I believe the ratio was fifty-fifty; does that still operate? As regards housing, I have nothing to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax of Cameron, has said, but I should like to reinforce his question. We should be grateful to know anything that the noble Lord thinks he can tell us about the progress of the Australian housing mission, now in London.
I should like to focus your Lordships' attention on a country which I know well—namely, Canada. I have spent more than half of my adult life there, or in its service. Here we have a wonderful microcosm of the whole question of the movement of humanity It is the only country in the Commonwealth that has a re-migration problem. A quarter of its citizens were born outside it. A quarter of its citizens now alive, who were born in it, are living outside it. Since 1869 literally millions of people have gone there from the rest of the world, but such is their re-migration problem, largely southwards over the border of the United States, that, since 1869, had no single man gone to Canada and no single man left, the population would be what it is to-day. Immigration into Canada is a pressing problem and one which exercises Canada greatly. As your Lordships know, a Canadian

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Minister of Migration was appointed for the first time in January of this year.
The fall in the number of emigrants from Britain to Canada by 52 per cent. last year is no accident. It is due to two things—the currency restrictions imposed by the last Budget but three, and the extensive rise in the cost of transportation since devaluation. I believe the Government cannot have had the slightest idea of the effect of these currency restrictions, because, if they had, I am sure they would not have limited intending emigrants to £1,000 and the amount which they could take in one year to not more than £250. What it means is that the small middle-class family unit has been more or less banned as settlers. Nearly all are single men and women with small resources. Skilled workers and craftsmen cannot be attracted, because they have nearly always saved up more than £1,000. Canada cannot get those skilled in small crafts and trades who would wish to set up in business. A cross-section is destroyed, because a producer who goes out there often cannot get his mother and father, or whoever are his dependants, to follow him, as they have probably worked and saved up rather more than that sum.
As a result, a great many people who would have made their lives in Canada, and put that country as their first choice, have gone to South Africa or Australia instead—no loss to the Commonwealth, but in many cases a grievous loss to Canada. Canada has always tried, in order to ensure an essential balance of people, to maintain a certain ratio of those citizens of this country and those from the rest of Europe. But if those from this country are reduced by this slashing figure, it is only to be expected that she may find herself having to review the number of displaced persons and others that she can take to make up her total. The noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, cannot be aware of the large number of people who have gone from Western Europe to these countries. Further on this point, there are assisted schemes to Australia and New Zealand, and the British taxpayer plays his part. But he does not have to contribute anything to those who go to Canada—emigration to Canada takes place independently of the British taxpayer's purse. It seems, therefore, a great misfortune to
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Canada, who was not asked, and has not come to any agreement by which she receives any outside financial assistance in this sphere, that her flow of immigrants should have dried up in this way. If that affects Ontario where, as your Lordships well know, about one-third of the Canadian industrial population lives, how much more does it affect the prairie provinces, where people could go to start farms, but now cannot take the money to buy a farm. Surely, somewhere there is a possible compromise and room for relaxation of these restrictions.
I should now like to say a few words on the question of transportation. Those who have not sufficient funds to take over to be hit by these currency regulations in the sphere of £1,000 find themselves hit by having to pay a heavy fare. The tourist class single fare across the Atlantic prior to devaluation cost £40; it is now £54. B.O.A.C. used to charge £86; they now charge £120.
To bring my remarks to a conclusion, the noble Lord, Lord Holden, has been asked many questions; he has taken a number of notes, and we all expect some interesting answers from him. But what we want to know is: What are the plans for the future? We concern ourselves in this House with what lies within the purview of the Parliament of Westminster, something that we can personally assist or alter. My noble friend Lord Fairfax made a plea for a Migration Board, and that is a plea I would strongly endorse. He has made a most interesting disquisition on industrial migration. That, I feel, is something which the Government could look into with the greatest profit. But it cannot work unless those companies who try it receive some encouragement in terms of currency, in terms of passages, and in terms of other assistance. It is not a question of British industries being reft from this island and divorced from valuable continental markets, but rather of established industries in this country sending out to those countries an off-shoot, and the people who go with it, which may well one day flourish into something greater than the parent tree. A famous Canadian firm of agricultural implement makers, following that principle, has a factory and assembly plant, some of which have grown bigger than the parent unit, in every single Commonwealth country. I should like to hear what information the noble Lord can give

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us on the subject of shipping, and on currency regulations. If the Government say they are encouraging emigration, they cannot deny that that is a terrible discouragement. So also is the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, where the grant to the Big Brother Movement is being reduced.
LORD GIFFORD: Removed altogether.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: The noble Lord corrects me. It has been removed altogether. Surely, there is room for relaxation of these restrictions, so that we in this country can say with an absolutely clear conscience that we are giving the all-out encouragement that every one of us wishes to see. We must face these problems now, because they press upon us and will press harder as time goes on.
6.46 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (LORD HOLDEN): My Lords, I should first of all like to say how grateful I am for the many kind remarks that have been made by noble Lords about myself, and secondly to make the more melancholy observation that, as this is a very important debate, I may not be able to allow your Lordships to go to dinner for some time. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, for raising the matter, and to thank him and other noble Lords for their courtesy in letting me know what the main theme of their speeches would be, and for sending me beforehand some specific questions they wished to ask. Before replying, to them, however, I should like to make a few general observations on migration within the Commonwealth.
I would say with emphasis that His Majesty's Government want to encourage and facilitate the flow of migration from this Island to the various parts of the Commonwealth which are calling for further settlement. Since the 17th century, as your Lordships know, the overseas migration of British people has been on a larger scale than that of any other people, and those people built up the countries of the Commonwealth to-day, where British stock is the largest single
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element of the population. This has had two distinct advantages. The first is the very happy relationship existing in the Commonwealth, which has produced a solidarity so potent in overcoming our enemies in two world wars. The second concerns trade. There is no doubt that the people of the Commonwealth have a natural inclination to purchase British goods, and the maintenance and growth of this trade is directly related to the size and character of the populations of the Commonwealth. But circumstances in the Commonwealth are vastly different to-day from what they were, say, fifty years ago. Then the present Commonwealth nations were, in larger or lesser degrees, ruled by this country, and were far more sparsely populated than they are even to-day. At the same time, there were constant periods of unemployment in the United Kingdom. To-day these same people are great independent nations, though bound together by many common ties; and we in this country have full employment. Therefore I think that our approach to the problem of migration to-day must be different from what it was in the past.
To go into more detailed considerations, there are two rather separate questions involved in any discussion of the United Kingdom policy towards migration. One is that concerned with the effects of emigration on United Kingdom economy—considerations such as the supply of man-power, particularly in skilled trades, and export of plant and capital. The second is the provision to be made from United Kingdom funds for the specific purpose of subsidising the movement of individual migrants. Since 1922 there has been provision for expenditure of public funds for this purpose, in the Empire Settlement Act of 1922, which was extended in 1937. It is by virtue of these Acts that schemes like the present assisted-passage scheme to Australia have been possible. As your Lordships will be aware, the Acts are due to expire on May 31, 1952. The question of their extension is now coming under review, but it would be premature to attempt to indicate at this stage what the result of the examination of this question will be. It is safe to say, however, that

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the United Kingdom will continue, as it has so often declared in the past, to welcome migration of persons from this country for permanent settlement in other countries of the Commonwealth.
The factors which have to be borne in mind are the willingness of individuals to go, and the willingness of other countries to receive them, house them and absorb them into their economies. This is not a matter in which any British Government would bring pressure to bear, either upon individuals or upon other countries. All we can do is to reiterate the value that we attach to this means of strengthening the bonds between the members of the Commonwealth and to facilitate the flow by all means, and to the greatest extent, that our own resources permit. It is well known that many of the skilled tradesmen who are in particular demand in other countries are those whom we ourselves greatly need. Our hope, therefore, is that Governments will seek to take a cross-section of our population—which has been mentioned by many noble Lords opposite—and not merely our youngest and our most skilled people. We welcome the opportunity which we have of discussing with them the proportions and numbers in particular trades whose emigration should be encouraged. But so highly do we value the links afforded by migration that we are prepared to take risks and not to obtrude our own difficulties in particular categories, except in the most compelling cases.
The cost of migration is much higher than before the war, and our financial resources have many other calls upon them. But it remains our policy to welcome and facilitate a flow on the present scale. Migration from Europe to less-developed countries is a topic which is being much discussed in international circles at present—for instance, at Geneva by the I.L.O. The United Kingdom is always ready to take part in these discussions and to try to help them forward. But in our view, and, we think, that of other Commonwealth countries, migration within the Commonwealth is more of a family affair, and we value the more informal and direct atmosphere in which we can treat it.
I should now like to make a few general observations about migration questions
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as they affect individual members of the Commonwealth. I should first like to refer to Canada. At present it is not Canadian Government policy to operate Government-sponsored schemes of immigration, United Kingdom migration to Canada is showing a decline, which is probably due not only to the exhaustion of the post-war rush but also to the absence of Governmental assistance and to the present restrictions on the amount of capital that can be transferred from this country to Canada. I think my noble friend Lord Tweedsmuir has already referred to the fact that the limit was reduced in 1948 from £5,000 to £1,000, spread over four years. On the economic side, there is in Canada, as your Lordships know, an unemployment problem more severe than seasonal fluctuations can account for.
Migration to Australia is proceeding at an accelerating rate. It is in three categories: assisted migration under the assisted-passage agreement, under which the cost of passages above a small sum—that is, £10–contributed by the migrant himself, is shared between the United Kingdom and Australian Governments; free passage migration, under the scheme whereby free passages are provided by the Ministry of Labour and National Service as a resettlement benefit for British ex-Service men and ex-Service women; and thirdly, ordinary migration of persons travelling under their own arrangements. The Australians have several times since the war approached us to make special ships available, and in response to these requests we have done our best to keep putting more ships on the migrant run. In addition to these special ships there are, of course, the ordinary commercial runs to Australia which carry persons proceeding under their own arrangements, as well as a fair proportion of those travelling under the free or assisted schemes. The expected lift in special ships to Australia for 1950 is 34,500 berths. In addition, tourist berths in commercial ships for assisted independent migration will bring the total to 63,000. I think that is what the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, more or less said himself.
May I now refer to New Zealand? The New Zealand Government have free and assisted-passage schemes of their own. These were established in July, 1947, and on account of the scarcity of shipping

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and housing were limited to single people without dependants. These two problems and the consequent limitation still persist. The accepted age range for general purposes is from twenty to thirty-five years. These schemes are operated by the New Zealand Government on their own. A ship owned by the United Kingdom, the "Atlantis," has been made available to the New Zealand Government and is operated for their migration run by one of their shipping companies. The New Zealand Government, as your Lordships all know, have a traditional preference for immigrants from this country.
About the Union of South Africa, I would say this. There are no migration schemes operated with or by the Government of the Union, although there was a heavy flow of United Kingdom migration to the Union after the war. Now we come to Southern Rhodesia. Southern Rhodesia has admitted relatively large quantities of British immigrants since the war. By regulation, almost all immigrants to Southern Rhodesia are of British nationality. Permission to enter is readily given to persons who either have assured employment to go to or have a capital sum behind them. This sum has been raised from £1,000 to £1,500. In the last five years, Mr. Beadle, the Minister of Internal Affairs, said recently Southern Rhodesia has absorbed 58,000 settlers, raising the Colony's European population from 75,000 to 120,000. This, my Lords, you will agree, is a most remarkable increase.
Now I would pass to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, of which he courteously gave me notice before he made his eloquent and delightful speech. The first referred to shipping: the noble Lord asked what His Majesty's Government are doing to assist the Dominions to get to their own shores those Britons who wish to migrate, and what are the arrangements for providing information for migrants. We have made great efforts since the war to meet the Australian Government's requests for special shipping for migration, and the supply of shipping has been increasing rapidly. There are at present 10 special migrant ships, and there is another in commission. There is also a special migrant ship running to New Zealand. In addition, of course, use is made of the
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ordinary liner runs to Australia and New Zealand. There are no longer any special arangements for shipping to Canada or to the Union of South Africa: normal passenger traffic is now considered sufficient to carry the flow. The Governments who have migration schemes do their own advertising and the organisation of the Ministry of Labour and National Service is at their disposal to put them in touch with prospective migrants. The London representatives of Commonwealth Governments are always ready to provide prospective migrants with all the information they may require. Under the assisted-passage scheme with Australia it was agreed that the Australian and United Kingdom Governments would share equally the cost of the passage over and above the migrant's own small contribution. We have, unfortunately, found it necessary to ask the Australian Government to agree, in our present financial circumstances, to a reduction in the size of our contribution for each passage, and they have generously agreed to take part of the burden off us.
The noble Lord asked about a White Paper on Migration. There is nothing new to show at the moment, but we will certainly consider laying a further White Paper before the Empire Settlement Acts come up for review—which, as the noble Lord knows, is in 1952. The noble Lord also asked about assistance to the Australian housing mission. The Australian housing mission were received on April 3 by my honourable friend the Secretary for Overseas Trade, who explained that the Government were anxious to assist the Australians in filling up the empty spaces in Australia. He said that the Ministry of Works were the production authority for export of houses and also for building materials and fitments and would no doubt give the mission all possible assistance. The mission have since had several sessions with the Ministry of Works, who carried out a very large programme of producing and erecting prefabricated houses and were most willing to give the Australians the benefit of their experience. This experience covered such matters as the organisation of the whole project, with notes on the phasing of the programme—that is to say, how far ahead of erection sites must be prepared, and at what stages the different operations begin so that the programme runs smoothly.

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The Ministry of Works have also given the mission information on the types of contracts into which they entered and their experience in the actual erection of the houses; and they have been able to contribute a certain amount of experience of scientific research in these matters.
The noble Lord then asked about the use of the steamship "Aquitania," and shipping in general. We have received representations from the Australian Government for still more shipping this year, and we have reviewed those representations with the utmost sympathy and eagerness to assist. But there are no more ships to be had. The future shipbuilding programme in this country is possibly beyond the scope of this debate, and in any case no ships laid down or put in for conversion now would be anywhere near ready in time to assist the movement this year. The use of the "Aquitania" was carefully considered, but it was concluded that the cost and time involved in making her suitable for continued service rendered the project prohibitive. The noble Lord next asked me about the Commonwealth Migration Board. If any of the Governments indicated that they thought that a body of this nature would be useful, we should be happy to consider it. At the moment, however, there is no indication that any of them feel the need for it, or that they are not respectively fully content with the standard arrangements for consultation on matters of common interest.
As regards the transferability of social services, about which the noble Lord next asked, the recommendations of the conference of officials from the United Kingdom and other members of the Commonwealth held in 1947 provided a basis for bilateral negotiations. By a 1949 amendment, the qualifying period under the Canadian Family Allowances Act is now only one year, so that the question of reciprocity or transfer has become largely academic. It has not been found possible to arrange an agreement with Canada in respect of unemployment benefit, because of the possibility of financial adjustments causing a dollar drain which the United Kingdom can at present ill afford. In Australia, all the social service benefits are immediately obtainable by migrants on the same terms as Australian citizens,
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except old age pensions, about which negotiations are now taking place. As regards New Zealand, a reciprocal arrangement has been made about family allowances and discussions on other aspects of social security reciprocity are now taking place.
I now come to the last of the noble Lord's questions, which is a most difficult one: the migration of whole economic units. I think the noble Lord will agree that this is a very big and a very difficult problem. Successful attempts to do this sort of thing are in no way unwelcome to the United Kingdom Government, and if businesses can find a suitable site with suitable markets, and can get together a staff willing to travel, there is no reason why they should not get on with it. But it is not a matter in which the Government can properly use much influence; it would be improper to bring pressure to bear either on businesses or on individual employees to move. Any such movement would be subject, of course, to the exchange and export controls which have been established in this country to protect and promote the United Kingdom's own economy.
I now turn to the question asked by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. This is perhaps a question which is of interest to the Colonial Office, and I hope I shall not be treading on anyone's toes in making mention of it. Lord Listowel asked about North Borneo, and I can tell him that the Colonial Office have for some time been considering possible sources from which labour might be recruited for North Borneo. The British West Indies was not regarded as a suitable source: it is considered that people from the West Indies would not be readily assimilated into local conditions, and that it is undesirable to introduce a fresh element in the heterogeneous society of North Borneo. The noble Earl also asked me a question about the position regarding the admission of Chinese labour into North Borneo. I am informed that the passport and immigration legislation provides adequate safeguards to ensure the bona fides of prospective immigrants. All entrants are very carefully screened.
The second point that the noble Earl asked was in relation to the need of migration from the over-populated parts of the British West Indies, and the possibility

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of using migrant labour in British Honduras and British Guiana. The third question was in regard to the Government's attitude towards the findings on migration in the Evans Report. Perhaps the noble Earl will allow me to answer those questions together. The British Guiana and British Honduras Settlement Commission, under the Chairmanship of Sir Geoffrey Evans, was appointed in 1947 and reported at the end of 1948. As a result of their proposals, the economic development of British Guiana and British Honduras is proceeding, and it is hoped will provide opportunities for a certain amount of migration to those territories from the more densely populated islands of the British West Indies. It is, however, important that the foundations of this development shall be soundly laid, and that there shall be no premature movements of population. It must not be overlooked that at present there is a certain amount of unemployment in British Honduras which must be absorbed before labour is brought in from elsewhere.
Lastly, the noble Earl asked a question about Malta. Under the new Constitution, emigration is the responsibility of the Maltese Government, but His Majesty's Government, for their part, will naturally do everything to assist the Maltese Government if they are asked to do so. They have in the past made arrangements to set aside for migrants from Malta to Australia certain accommodation on one of the migrant ships sailing between the United Kingdom and Australia, and will continue to do so as far as possible. In view of the constitutional position, however, the prime responsibility in this matter must rest with the Maltese authorities concerned. The noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, made a constructive speech looking very much into the future. It was most interesting. He brought up the population problem. That is a large question, and now is not the moment to discuss it. I agree that as regards this country and the Commonwealth it is a matter of great responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Gifford, brought up the question of the Big Brother Movement. This is the answer I must give him. Before the war, we and the Australian Government made a joint grant towards the London expenses of the Big Brother Movement. The
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Australian Government have recently decided to discontinue their contribution and, in view of the imperative need of economy, we have regretfully decided that we must follow suit. May I add that should the Australian Government reconsider their decision, we shall, of course, reconsider ours?
Lord Haden-Guest asked how much money is now being spent by the United Kingdom on migration. The direct expenditure on the provision of passages to Australia under the assisted passages scheme and the free Passages scheme for ex-Service men will amount to more than £2,000,000 in the year 1950–51. May I thank the noble Lord, Lord Baden-Powell, for his remarks on Southern Rhodesia, on which country he is probably the greatest expert in your Lordships' House? Then the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, asked me some questions which I should answer.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: I asked a great many questions under several different headings. Perhaps I can extract a Written Answer from the noble Lord to save time now?
LORD HOLDEN: Certainly. Otherwise it will take me some time to reply now. Perhaps I might say at the conclusion of a rather long speech that I have attempted to answer the points raised but, as in the case of the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, I shall be only too glad to write to any noble Lord upon any further point about which he may desire information. His Majesty's Government wish to give encouragement and to provide facilities so far as possible for migration. We believe, however, that mass migration is impracticable and we must bear in mind to-day that we have full employment in the United Kingdom. This may often mean that, when someone migrates, what is a gain to another Commonwealth country is a loss to this country. Indeed, I may say that, but for the Commonwealth and our desire to help its nations in every way we can, we should not today be encouraging migration. However, we have a Commonwealth migration policy, and as far as my Government are concerned we shall do all in our power to make it a success. May I add this? The Government of the United Kingdom have no wish or intention whatever to interfere in these matters with any sister

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nation of the Commonwealth. We in this country seek to dictate to nobody but rather to help everyone to the best of our ability in our great family of nations.
7.18 p.m.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: My Lords, it is my great pleasure and privilege to congratulate the noble Lord who has just spoken upon his first speech as a Minister of His Majesty's Government. As he is a personal friend of mine, it gives me a double pleasure to hear him replying to the debate which I have instituted. I am sure that we shall all look forward to hearing the noble Lord speak again in the future. I feel that we have had a most interesting debate. I am glad to know that His Majesty's Government are anxious to encourage migration within the Commonwealth, but I confess that I feel that the attitude which they are taking towards migration is a little too cautious. It appears that they are adopting too much caution, and I hardly feel that they will be very successful in encouraging migration. It is up to the United Kingdom to take the lead in Commonwealth affairs and not to wait for the Dominions to do so. From the way His Majesty's Government approach this question I hardly think that they will be likely to take that lead. Their attitude is rather one of leaving it for the other person to move first.
With regard to the limitation upon the removal of capital to Canada, I am sorry that His Majesty's Government can give no indication that they intend to restore to £5,000 the maximum that may be taken. The reduction is having a direct effect in limiting the number of people who go to Canada, and I should have thought that it might be possible to make a special exception in the case of Canada, which has done so much for us in the past, particularly during the war. I was greatly heartened by what the noble Lord said about the number of berths which will be available to take migrants to Australia. The number of berths with the commercial lines was substantially more than I had thought, and it appears that there will be only some 7,000 short if the full target of 70,000 Britons from this country is realised.
There was one point in the noble Lord's speech about which I was particularly sorry—namely, the question of His
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Majesty's Government reducing the contribution which they can make towards the assisted-passages scheme to Australia. Quite apart from the money advantages of that scheme, I feel that there is an important matter of token in this—in showing our attitude towards migration and our feeling towards the population needs of Australia. I am sure that the amount of money involved cannot be very large, and I feel that the reduction of our share of the cost may create a bad impression in Australia. It is a matter of regret that the United Kingdom, the Mother Country of the Commonwealth, cannot pay at least half the full cost of these passages.
With regard to industrial migration, it is not so much a question of His Majesty's Government applying pressure on particular companies to go; that does not come into the question at all, so far as I can see. It is merely a question of encouraging companies to go, and of their knowing that if they do go their action will be smiled upon and that they will receive help from His Majesty's Government. It is fully within the power of His Majesty's Government to encourage them and to let them know that they are doing something of which the Government approve. We have had a most interesting debate, but the hour is late and I should not like to detain your Lordships any longer. I will close by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Holden, again for his very informative reply. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la; and referred to the Examiners.
WISBECH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the order made on March 15 last discharged, and Bill committed.
FACULTY OF HOMEOPATHY BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMITTEE
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that, by virtue of the powers invested in him by Section 2 of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, he had nominated the following fifteen Members of the House to be Members of the Ecclesiastical Committee established under that Act, and to serve for the duration of the present Parliament:

E. Grey,

E. Selborne,

V. Chelmsford,

V. Davidson,

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L. Denman,

L. O'Hagan,

L. Meston,

L. Moynihan,

L. Luke,

L. Hailey,

L. Belstead,

L. Ammon,

L. Oaksey,

L. Crook, and

L. Burden.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past seven o'clock.