Sitting of 12 May 1949

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BOLTON CORPORATION BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  WEST BROMWICH CORPORATION BILL (BY ORDER)
  Third Reading deferred till Thursday next at Seven o'Clock.

  ASHDOWN FOREST [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. BOWLES in the Chair]
  The Chairman of Ways and Means (Major Milner): I beg to move,
  "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session providing for the vesting in the Secretary of State for the War Department of part of Ashdown Forest, the acquisition of lands in substitution for such lands and the use of the said Forest for the purposes of military training, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenses incurred by the Secretary of State for the War Department in repaying to the Conservators of the said Forest the costs, charges and expenses incurred by them in or in connection with the purchase and acquisition, and transfer and conveyance of the lands so to be substituted and in or in connection with the promotion of the Bill for the said Act, and in paying compensation for damage, injury or loss arising out of the use of the said Forest for the purposes of military training and any expenses incurred in making good any such damage or injury or otherwise incurred under the said Act."
  In moving this Motion, it may perhaps be proper and of assistance to the Committee if I say a word or two as to the purpose of this procedure and of the Motion which is a relatively rare occurrence in respect of Private Bills.
  The Ashdown Forest Bill is a private Bill promoted by the forest conservators as a result of agreement with the Secre-
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  tary of State for War. The Bill has two main purposes. The first is to vest in the Secretary of State the site of the military camp which forms part of Ashdown Forest, subject to the Secretary of State repaying the cost of purchasing lands in substitution and adding them to the Forest. The second object is to authorise the use of Ashdown Forest for military training purposes, subject to certain restrictions set out in the Bill. This Motion is necessary in order to empower the Secretary of State for War to pay out of public funds for the substituted lands which thereafter will be the property of the conservators, and also to pay compensation for or to make good damage or injuries to persons or properties which may arise as a result of the use of the Forest for military training purposes.
  The Bill will naturally be subject to the same stages as other Private Bills and will be given detailed consideration by a Private Bill Committee in due course.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

  TEESSIDE RAILLESS TRACTION BOARD (ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the North Ormesby South Bank Normanby and Grangetown Railless Traction Act, 1912, relating to Teesside Railless Traction Board trolley vehicles," presented by Mr. Barnes; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 129.]
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (CRARAE) BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Crarae," presented by Mr. Barnes; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 130.]
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (SOUTHWOLD) BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Southwold," presented by Mr. Barnes; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 128.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Government Surplus Stores (Resale)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he takes to prevent profiteering in the resale of Government surplus stores which have been auctioned.
    The Parliamentry Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Edwards): Traders who sell Government surplus goods which have been bought at Ministry of Supply auctions are not exempt from price control, and a warning to this effect is given whenever price controlled goods are sold by auction. I do not think any other action is required. No complaints of alleged breaches of price control regulations in respect of such goods have been received for some considerable time by the local price regulation committees.

    Wood Pulp
    Mr. Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade for an estimate of what loss would be involved if he released for current use at the present market price the Government stock of wood pulp for the production of all descriptions of paper.
    Mr. J. Edwards: It would not be in accord with normal practice to give this information.
    Mr. Hurd: Would it be very far wide of the mark to say that altogether the figure is about £3 million; could the Parliamentary Secretary tell us whether further purchases are being made on contract to build up more stocks; and when will he be able to tell the paper trade as a whole that they will be free to go ahead and make their own contracts at market prices?
    Mr. Edwards: I make no comment on the first statement. I would ask the hon. Gentleman to put down a Question on the second.
    Mr. William Shepherd: Does the hon. Gentleman's answer imply that the Department is committed to further bulk buying on a falling market?
    Mr. Edwards: It implies nothing of the kind. I ask that that question also should be put down.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: In view of the fact that the majority of this pulp is of Finnish origin, does it not go against the Government's plans for trade with Canada that this stock should be overhanging the market?

    Footwear (American Markets)
    Mr. Attewellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will supply the boot and shoe industry with information as to the type of footwear of British make in demand in the American markets; and if the boot and shoe industry is assured of the quantity and quality of leather which will enable the increased export pairage to be produced.
    Mr. J. Edwards: The Board of Trade is always ready to provide exporters with the fullest available information about products in demand in the United States, Canada, and other markets. They are at present in close touch with the footwear industry about its plans for increased sales in North America. Every effort will continue to be made to supply the industry with the quantity and quality of leather necessary for increased exports to these markets.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: What on earth is "export pairage"?
    Mr. Odey: How can the Minister expect boot manufacturers in this country to export large quantities of footwear to the United States when boot manufacturers here are paying 30 per cent. more for their leather than their competitors in the United States, owing to the Government's methods of bulk purchase?
    Mr. Edwards: I appreciate the difficulty, but I would ask the hon. Gentleman to understand that the difficulties of buying leather, particularly in countries like the Argentine, are very great indeed.
    Earl Winterton: If the hon. Gentleman is not able to use plain English will he explain what he means by the extraordinary term to which my hon. and learned Friend called attention? What is the meaning of it?
    Mr. Edwards: That is the phrase used in the original Question.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The Minister must know what it means.
    Mr. Attewell: Is not my hon. Friend aware that when a member of the boot and shoe trade asks a Question about that trade he uses the terms that are used in the trade?

    Fireguards (Steel Allocation)
    Mr. Yatesasked the President of the Board of Trade why the allocation of steel for the manufacture of fire guards to Messrs. Smith Brothers, 64 Clement Street, Birmingham, has been reduced; and if, in view of the statutory obligation to provide fireguards and the existing shortage, he will increase the allocation and obviate the necessity of workers already engaged upon this work being displaced.
    Mr. J. Edwards: As I have already told my hon. Friend in my letter to him of 11th April, there is, so far as I know now, no shortage of fireguards. In these circumstances we have not been able to continue the specially large allocations of steel which were made to overcome the shortage last year. We are, however, reviewing the allocations of steel to the makers of these articles and I hope that some small improvement may be possible in the next quarter.
    Mr. Yates: While I appreciate that answer, I did gather it to mean that 14 per cent. of retailers did not stock these fireguards, and in view of the fact that women who are anxious to go out and do a job of work fear to leave their children exposed to danger without this very necessary protection, will the Minister take steps to see that this steel allocation is increased?
    Mr. Edwards: I should make it plain that the retailers non-stock index for fireguards has fallen from 43 per cent. in 1946 to about 14 per cent. at the present time. We have, in fact, had no complaints for over a year about the shortage of any type of fireguard. If my hon. Friend has any case he would like me to examine perhaps he will let me have particulars.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: Would the Parliamentary Secretary examine how far this affects employment; and is the Board of Trade keeping in constant touch on this allocation of steel in order to prevent a rise in unemployment in various industries?
    Mr. Edwards: Certainly, and I have no reason to suppose that there is any risk of unemployment in this trade at the present time.

    Mexico
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the President of the Board of Trade if special effort is contemplated with the object of the development of Anglo-Mexican trade; if he is satisfied that the present commercial diplomatic establishment in Mexico is adequate for this purpose; and if instructions will be issued for the exploitation of the Mexican market in the interests of British export trade.
    Mr. J. Edwards: I am anxious that United Kingdom exporters should do their utmost to increase their sales to Mexico, which is a dollar market, and if the hon. Member has any specific suggestions to make I shall be glad to examine them. The commercial diplomatic establishment in Mexico has recently been reviewed and strengthened and I am satisfied that it is adequate for the purpose.
    Sir P. Hannon: Is the Minister aware that in Mexico there is a great desire to cultivate expanding trade with this country; and is he satisfied that our present commercial diplomatic establishment and secretariat are equal to pressing that forward in Mexico?
    Mr. Edwards: Yes, Sir, I think so. As I said, we have recently strengthened our secretariat there.

    Czechoslovakia
    Sir P. Hannonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the potential trade development between this country and Czechoslovakia; and if he considers the present provision for British commercial diplomatic establishment in that country adequate to the development of reciprocal trade possibilities.
    Mr. J. Edwards: As to the first part of the Question, a Czechoslovak delegation of trade and financial experts is expected to arrive in London at the end of this month, and the whole question of Anglo-Czechoslovak commercial and financial relations will then come under review. The answer to the second part of the Question is "Yes, Sir."
    Sir P. Hannon: Does the Parliamentary Secretary not realise the importance of the Anglo-Czechoslovak trade which existed before the debacle took place in Czechoslovakia; and is he doing everything possible in the Board of Trade to restore the generous understanding between the two countries which prevailed then?
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: During these negotiations will the Minister bear in mind that large sums in debts are owing by the Czech Government to traders in this country; and will he bracket these two questions together when he is considering this matter?
    Mr. Edwards: Certainly. I would point out that at the present time we have no trade agreement with Czechoslovakia, partly because of the fact to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman referred.
    Major Tufton Beamish: Will the Minister also bear in mind that the Spitfires of the Israeli Air Force appear to have been sold to Israel by Czechoslovakia—
    Mr. Speaker: That has nothing to do with this Question. Sir Patrick Hannon.
    Major Beamish: On a point of Order. Owing to the fact that I was unable to complete my sentence, it was impossible for me to say that these Spitfires appear to have been sold to Israel by Czechoslovakia, to whom we had previously sold them, and—
    Mr. Speaker: That is quite another matter and has nothing to do with this Question.

    Spain
    Sir P. Hannonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is satisfied that the provision of the British commercial diplomatic establishment in Spain is adequate for the potential expansion of the Spanish market for British export trade; and if full encouragement is being given to the extension of Anglo-Spanish trade development.
    Mr. J. Edwards: I am satisfied that the staff in the commercial department of the British Embassy in Madrid is sufficient to promote the development of healthy trade relations with Spain. The answer to the second part of the Question is "Yes, Sir."
    Sir P. Hannon: But what about Barcelona and the other great cities in Spain with which we traded before the trouble with Spain arose; is not the Minister anxious to cultivate our trade with Spain in every way possible?
    Mr. Edwards: Certainly, but I think the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that at the present time Spain is very short of sterling, and that is limiting our trade prospects in that country.

    Indonesia
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give an assurance that in concluding the Trade Agreement with the Netherlands providing for an expansion of trade with Indonesia care was taken by his Department to ensure that the sale of goods purchased from this country and stocked in Singapore was not prejudiced by that agreement.
    Mr. J. Edwards: Yes, Sir. My Department was well aware of the importance of the traditional entrepôt trade of Singapore, and as was stated in my reply to the hon. Member's question of 3rd May, this trade is not prejudiced by the trade arrangements recently concluded with the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that, quite contrary to what he has said on this occasion or the other it has done and is doing great harm to the entrepôt trade, and that representations have been made to him by chambers of commerce, both native and European; and will he review this question and give me an answer which is a little nearer to the facts?
    Mr. Edwards: I do not accept the view that this trade agreement is the cause of the difficulties of the entrepôt trade at the present time. I think that is to be explained by other causes, into which I cannot now go.
    Mr. Fletcher: In view of the very unsatisfactory and, as I believe, rather glorified case which the Minister has put up, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the first possible occasion.

  SEXUAL OFFENCES
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Earl WINTERTON:
  17. To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of convictions and acquittals in sexual cases by magistrates and juries, respectively, in 1948.
  Earl Winterton: As this Question asks for a number of figures I should prefer to have a written answer.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I was quite prepared to give the figures.

  CRUELTY TO CHILDREN (PENALTIES)
  Earl Wintertonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to increase the maximum penalty for cruelty to children.
  Brigadier Medlicottasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consider the introduction of legislation to increase the maximum penalty for cruelty to children and to make other provision for dealing with this social problem.
  Mr. Ede: The maximum penalty on summary conviction for cruelty to children is six months' imprisonment and a fine of £25, or further imprisonment in default of payment. On conviction on indictment the maximum penalty is two years' imprisonment and a fine of £100. The Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, contains provisions to safeguard a child in respect of whom a person has been convicted of cruelty. I see no reason to think that the powers given by the existing law are inadequate.
  Earl Winterton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of penologists who have studied this question believe that in some cases of cruelty to children by neglect, the parents, being of low mentality, should be given remedial treatment; and that the treatment for Belsen-like cruelty to children, which is a disgrace to this country, should be punished by far longer terms of imprisonment than those existing today.
  Mr. Ede: If a person is sentenced to imprisonment, under the existing law he may, if suitable, receive treatment of the kind suggested; also, under the Criminal Justice Act, it is of course possible for it to be made a condition of the probation order that a person convicted shall receive remedial treatment. I think myself that the penalties I have read out indicate that there is a very substantial reserve of power in the hands of magistrates, which they do not always use when dealing with persons who have been so convicted.
  Brigadier Medlicott: As this is a problem which perhaps can only partly be dealt with by punishment, will the right hon. Gentleman, in conjunction with the Minister of Education, confer with the leading religious, educational and social workers to try to find the reason for what appears to be a growing amount of this very unhappy crime?
  Mr. Ede: I have no reason to think—and I have given some attention to this matter—that these offences are growing. I think that a quickened public conscience has made some of these cases of more news value than they used to be. I am constantly considering what it is possible to do in the case of all children who suffer neglect or are deprived. I do consult from time to time with my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Cocks: Will the Minister consider issuing a circular reminding magistrates that the offence of cruelty is just as antisocial as offences against property?
  Mr. Ede: I have considered, in the light of certain cases which have been recently reported, whether it may not be desirable to draw the attention of magistrates to the powers they possess.
  Mr. Somerville Hastings: Will my right hon. Friend consider issuing orders that all such cases should be reported to the children's committee of the appropriate local authority?
  Mr. Ede: I do not know that I have power to issue an order to anyone in that respect, but I would hope that the local authority charged with the duties under the Children Act and under the Children and Young Persons Act would interest themselves when such cases come forward. In the recent notorious case, which I think has given rise to these Questions, the child has been handed over to the children's officer by name.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is not aftercare of the victim even more important than the punishment of the perpetrators of the crime? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that adequate care is taken in regard to the after-life of these children, who may be mentally warped as a result of their experience?
  Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir. As I have just said, in the case of what is known as the "Reading case," that has taken place, and the child is still in the care of the children's officer.
  Earl Winterton: In view of the obvious concern felt in all parts of the House and country, I should like to give notice that, if successful in catching Mr. Speaker's eye, I shall raise this matter on some future occasion—I cannot do it on the Adjournment because it involves legislation. The amount of child cruelty in this country and the inadequate penalties at this time are a disgrace to a great nation.

  CARDIFF (PETITION)
  Mr. George Thomasasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether consideration has now been given to the petition presented by the Cardiff City Council asking for Cardiff to be recognised as the capital city for Wales; and what answer he has returned.
  Mr. Ede: The petition is still under consideration.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: While it is under consideration, will the Home Secretary bear in mind that comparatively speaking Cardiff is a modern excrescence on the landscape, and that it will be wrong to ignore an historic and cultural centre such as St. David's if a change is to be made in the present arrangements?
  Mr. Thomas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this Irish interference in questions of the Principality of Wales reflects credit on no one? Will he further bear in mind that this petition is very widely supported throughout the Principality, and that the City of Cardiff needs no recommendations from Bedford or any other area in this matter?
  Mr. Price-White: Is the Home Secretary aware that the general support accorded by the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas) does not reach
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  the ancient borough of Caernarvon? While expressing no opinion on the merits of these two ancient towns, comparable to Glasgow and Edinburgh, does not the Home Secretary agree that the time spent by a lot of worthy and enthusiastic persons on these claims might be better spent in dealing with more urgent matters in Wales?
  Mr. Ede: I know that there are many claimants for the honour of being the capital city of Wales, and three have been mentioned today, but there are other places whose claims could not be overlooked and which have not been advanced this afternoon. I do not think it is exactly fair to all the claimants for the claims of one to be pressed by Question and answer in the House.
  Mr. Keenan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Liverpool also claims to be the capital of Wales?
  Mr. Ede: I had occasion recently to inquire where was the most convenient place for the education authorities of Wales to meet me and I was assured that it was Shrewsbury.
  Mr. Thomas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if he visits the Principality and goes to Cardiff he will find it is already the capital for all administrative purposes?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir. I have been to Cardiff on many occasions and I can think of other places that have claims.

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (CHAIRMEN)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to provide that the chairman of a county council or mayor of a borough shall not be elected until the council has been fully constituted by the filling of aldermanic vacancies.
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir.
  Mr. Keeling: Is the Home Secretary aware that the present law, whereby a council is not fully constituted until after the mayor or chairman has been elected, made possible in London what the "Tribune" called "The creation of a faked majority, contrary to the principles of democracy," and what the "New Statesman" called "Boss rule—the

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  wangling of a majority?" How can the Home Secretary justify a law which makes that possible?
  Mr. Ede: I do not have to justify it.

  PRISONERS (PRODUCTIVE WORK)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons were serving prison sentences at the latest available date; how many of them were employed in productive work; and how they are paid for their labour.
  Mr. Ede: As the answers to the first and second parts of the Question consist of statistical statements, I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT. In answer to the third part of the Question, I can say that prisoners are paid weekly in cash under the prison earnings scheme, details of which I will send to the hon. Member if he so desires.
  Mr. Piratin: While informing the right hon. Gentleman that I do so desire, does he not recognise that this is forced labour?
  Mr. Benn Levy: May I ask my right hon. Friend to assure me that the pay is sufficient at least to enable prisoners to maintain their insurance cards so as not to jeopardise their benefits?
  Mr. Ede: I am considering these matters from time to time, and this is one of the matters to which I have to give consideration.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Home Secretary aware that in Peterhead the men are taken out to work in the quarries and get little or nothing for it? Is he further aware that a man who lost his leg got no compensation because he has no legal rights? If that is not forced labour, will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what is?
  Mr. Ede: I can understand the interest of the hon. Member and his hon. Friend in forced labour, but I would point out that Peterhead does not come within my jurisdiction.
  Following are the answers:
  On 3rd May, 1949, the number of persons serving prison sentences was 16,543. I regret that I have no details of the employment of prison labour on that date,
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  the latest available figures being for the year ended 31st March, 1948. During that year the daily average number of prisoners was 14,768; of these 12,835 were available for employment and were occupied as follow: Manufacturing, 8,198; Outside work, 878; Farms and Gardens, 146; Building Services, 1,049; Domestic Services, 2,573.

  JUVENILES (CINEMA ATTENDANCE)
  Mr. Dumpletonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether in view of the fact that a Departmental Committee is considering the question of the effect on children of attendance at the cinema, he will recommend to local authorities that local action to combat juvenile delinquency should, for the present, avoid any study of the role which cinema attendance may play in this matter locally.
  Mr. Ede: I agree that until we have the findings of the Departmental Committee on Children and the Cinema it would be better to defer any local inquiry into the influence of the cinema on children. Those concerned will no doubt bear this consideration in mind in acting upon the suggestions in the memorandum on juvenile delinquency which was recently sent to the heads of local authorities by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education and myself.
  Mr. Dumpleton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is no desire or intention in this Question to discourage local authorities taking an active concern in this problem, and can he say whether the report and findings of the Departmental Committee can be accelerated?
  Mr. Ede: I have no reason to think that they will be unduly delayed.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Dentists
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Health what record is kept in his Department of the complaints of patients on the conduct of dentists under the terms of the National Health Service Act in regard to discourtesy and refusal

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    to treat urgent cases; how many such cases have been brought to his notice; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    Mr. Leslie Haleasked the Minister of Health whether his regulations permit a dentist who is approached for treatment under the National Health Service to refuse to accept the patient as a non-fee paying patient, but offer to give immediate treatment if a fee is paid.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): No separate record has been kept of these complaints. A dentist has a right under the Act to decide whether he will accept any particular patient for treatment under the National Health Service but the simplified emergency procedure introduced on 1st April has, I believe, largely removed any cause for complaints of refusal to treat urgent cases.
    Mr. Evans: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the considerable feeling on this matter where patients are suffering from acute toothache and are refused attention and told to come back in three months? Is it not possible to arrange some kind of roster system similar to that followed by the chemists whereby one of them takes on the duties of dealing with urgent matters while the others are closed?
    Mr. Bevan: Since the simplified procedure to which I have referred was introduced on 1st April as many as 33,768 cases have already been dealt with under it, and my information is that abuses to which reference has been made are on the decline. It is, of course, a quite unreasonable exercise of the right of a dentist to refuse to take a patient under the National Health Service and then to accept that patient for a private fee. It is not that it is illegal, but I believe that this bad practice is on the decline as the moral standards of the profession are raised.
    Dr. Segal: If specific details of a case of an attempt to defeat the purposes of the Act are referred to my right hon. Friend, will he take action?
    Mr. Bevan: As I said, higher standards of conduct prevail, and I should have thought that to refuse a particular patient under the National Health Service and then treat that same patient immediately
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    afterwards as a private patient is a practice that will be universally condemned.
    Mr. Baird: Does my right hon. Friend realise that only a small number of dentists are following non-professional conduct, and that the large majority of dentists are working hard to make a success of the scheme.
    Mr. Bevan: As I have said, the practice is on the decline, and the vast majority of the dentists are operating quite properly.
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to imply that private fees are on the whole higher than those under the Health Scheme?
    Mr. Bevan: I have made no such suggestion, but hon. Members can guess for themselves whether this arises.
    Mr. Bairdasked the Minister of Health in view of the fact that negotiations between the public dental officers and the local authorities have now reached deadlock, what steps he is taking to stop the drift of dentists from the public service and to implement the Health Act as regards the priority classes.
    Mr. Bevan: This is primarily a matter for the local health authorities upon whom rests the duty of providing dental care for expectant and nursing mothers and young children. The Associations of local authorities concerned have not yet entered upon negotiations on the pay claim made on behalf of the public dental officers, but I am pleased to note that some local health authorities are making interim adjustments of salary scales pending the negotiations.
    Mr. Baird: If these negotiations break down, will the Minister stand by and let the whole of the dental service for priority classes break down also or will he step in if no agreement can be reached?
    Mr. Bevan: I am ready to help the progress of negotiations by forming a dental Whitley Council, but I can do this only if both the dental organisations and the local authorities agree. I understand that the dental organisations, who previously refused to join such a council, are now prepared to come in, subject to certain reservations. The local authority associations have not yet agreed to come in. Discussions with them are in progress.
    Mr. Hastings: Has my right hon. Friend considered offering his good offices to settle this unfortunate dispute?
    Mr. Bevan: My hon. Friend can assume that I am not standing idly by seeing matters drifting.

    Parkinson's Disease
    Dr. Segalasked the Minister of Health whether he will report on the claims of Dr. Klemme, in America, to have cured cases of Parkinson's disease by operative treatment; and whether these claims have been substantiated.
    Mr. Bevan: My advice is that the methods are well known, but that their general adoption is not justified on present experience.
    Dr. Segal: In view of the exaggerated hopes which have been raised in the minds of some patients by statements in certain sections of the Press will he appoint a Commission of Inquiry to make a definite statement about this method of treatment?
    Mr. Bevan: If I appointed a Commission of Inquiry every time a newspaper made exaggerated claims for some particular form of health or therapy I would have a series of commissions running all the time.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Dr. Voeller in Germany has had similar claims made about him, and that there are a large number of people desperately anxious for facilities to go to Germany to take this treatment? Will my right hon. Friend have the claims investigated and, if they prove to be substantiated, make representations to the Treasury to give facilities to people to attend.
    Mr. Bevan: This, of course, is another claim entirely of a different kind. I have already said, if my memory serves me correctly, in answer to a Question a little while ago, that I was having the German claim investigated.

    Tuberculosis Patients
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Minister of Health the number of tuberculosis patients awaiting hospital treatment in England and Wales.
    Mr. Bevan: On the latest information available, the number is about 9,000.
    Mr. Skeffington: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many patients who are kept waiting for long periods through no fault of his, and could he take any steps to expedite the matter?
    Mr. Bevan: I have asked the Tuberculosis Standing Advisory Committee of the Central Health Services Council to make an inquiry into this matter. The House will appreciate that the increase in the number of tuberculosis patients awaiting treatment is due to the better diagnostic facilities and mass radiography, but it is desirable to get them into tuberculosis institutions as early as possible. The difficulty is lack of staff.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Could my right hon. Friend give the figure separately for England and Wales?
    Mr. Bevan: If my hon. Friend will put a Question on the Order Paper I certainly will give him a reply.

    Leprosy (Notification)
    Mr. Hubbardasked the Minister of Health (1) how many adults and how many children in this country are known cases of leprosy;
    (2) what is the number of persons being treated in hospital for active and infectious leprosy; how many such hospitals there are in this country; and the number of beds available;
    (3) if he will take steps to make leprosy a certifiable disease in this country.
    Mr. Bevan: I am considering steps for making leprosy notifiable. As it is not so at present, reliable information about the number of cases is not available. There is one leper hospital, run by a voluntary body, which can accommodate 13 cases and has 12 there now. Arrangements are being made to supplement this by another provided as part of the National Health Service.

    Hospital Staffs (Fascists and Communists)
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Toothasked the Minister of Health how many hospital boards or management committees require an undertaking from persons seeking to join their medical, nursing or administrative staffs that they are not or have not been associated with either the

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    Fascist or Communist Parties; to what extent such action has been taken on his instructions or with his approval; and whether he will make a statement on the matter.
    Mr. Bevan: I have no information that this undertaking is being asked for. If it is, it is neither on my instructions nor with my approval.

    Medicine Bottles
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Health whether he has any further statement to make on the subject of making a charge for medicine bottles supplied under the National Health Service.
    Mr. Bevan: Not yet, Sir.

    Hospital Services (Expenditure)
    Mr. Bairdasked the Minister of Health if the proposed cut of seven per cent. in the expenditure of the hospital service will apply to the administrative staffs of the regional hospital boards also.
    Mr. Bevan: Regional hospital boards have been asked to prepare, within a reduced total sum in each case, revised estimates of the whole of their expenditure including the cost of their own administrative staff. The boards have been instructed to adjust their estimates so that the interests of patients are not affected.
    Mr. Lipson: Could my right hon. Friend say whether the regional boards were informed that these cuts are to be carried out even if they mean a less effective service to the public, and is it the intention to insist on them when they do?
    Mr. Bevan: It is neither my intention to close down hospital beds nor to prevent the opening of additional beds where that is practical, as a consequence of the attempt to operate these reductions.

    Hospital Staffs, West Midlands
    Mr. Bairdasked the Minister of Health what is the present non-medical staff of the West Midland Regional Hospital Board; and how many of this non-medical staff are employed at the headquarters of the Board in Birmingham.
    Mr. Bevan: The Board employs approximately 23,000 non-medical staff;
    1994
    65 of these are employed at its headquarters. These figures include all the staff of hospitals, whole-time and part-time.
    Mr. Baird: Does not my right hon. Friend think this a very inflated number for this work?
    Mr. Bevan: My hon. Friend should realise that when we speak about non-medical staffs we mean all the staffs at the hospital, including the nurses.

  DEAF PERSONS (LIP-READING)
  Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Health if he will consult with the Minister of Education in order that teaching in lip-reading may be provided for those who become provided with the Medresco hearing aid; and if he will bring to the notice of those using hearing aids the additional advantage to be derived from combining the use of the aural aid with lip-reading.
  Mr. Bevan: I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education that local education authorities provide lip-reading classes where the need is established. A number of the hospitals distributing hearing aids also provide training in lip-reading, and these facilities will be extended as circumstances permit.
  Mr. Evans: Will my right hon. Friend bring to the notice of every person who is issued with an aid the desirability of supplementing the value to be derived from the aid by lip-reading lessons?
  Mr. Bevan: Certainly I will see what can be done, but in that connection it would be undesirable to excite the individual over lip-reading if there is a lack of facilities to provide the education.

  JUVENILE WORKERS (MEDICAL EXAMINATION)
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that firms have to pay for the compulsory medical examination of their juvenile labour; and why medical examination of this kind is not provided under the National Health Service scheme.
  Mr. Bevan: These examinations are required by the Factories Acts and employers are not relieved of these obligations by the National Health Service Act.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: While appreciating the necessity and propriety of these investigations, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a factory which employs its own doctor is not allowed to use that doctor to conduct that examination, and that the firm have to pay substantial premiums under the National Health Service for which they get no benefit for examining their own employees? That is a great injustice.
  Mr. Bevan: There are a number of Acts under which employers are compelled to examine their employees and for which they have to pay for certification. This, of course, is included under the National Health Act, and until the Act is amended the powers will be required.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Would the right hon. Gentleman have a look at this again, because it all adds on to the cost of the eventual product, and see whether it is possible for them to employ their own doctors in cases where large firms have their own doctors?
  Mr. Bevan: That would require legislation.

  BROADCASTING (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY)
  Mr. H. D. Hughesasked the Lord President of the Council if he is now able to give the names of the Members who will serve on the Committee of Inquiry which is to advise on the organisation of British broadcasting on the expiry of the present Charter.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I informed the House on 31st January that Sir Cyril Radcliffe had accepted the chairmanship of the Committee. In consultation with the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General and I have appointed the following members of the Committee:

  Mr. A. L. Binns, C.B.E.;

  Mr. J. Bowman;

  Sir William (Henry) Coates;

  My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies);

  1996

  The Earl of Elgin, K.T.;

  The hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd);

  The hon. Member for Anglesey (Lady Megan Lloyd George);

  Mr. W. F. Oakeshott;

  My hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Reeves);

  Mrs. J. L. Stocks.

  The terms of reference will be as follow:
  "To consider the constitution, control, finance and other general aspects of the sound and television broadcasting services of the United Kingdom (excluding those aspects of the overseas services for which the B.B.C. are not responsible) and to advise on the conditions under which these services and wire broadcasting should be conducted after the 31st December, 1951."
  Mr. Hughes: Would my right hon. Friend say whether those terms of reference are wide enough to include the relationship of the Corporation with organisations representing their employees?
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, certainly. That point would come into it.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: How many Scots are on that Committee?
  Mr. Morrison: At first sight there is certainly one, but we never know. Scots have a habit of turning up unexpectedly. There may be others.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the terms of reference are wide enough for the Committee to consider whether or not a separate broadcasting corporation should be set up for Scotland, as is universally wanted in that country? Is he satisfied that the representation of Scotland on that Committee is strong enough?—because I am not.
  Mr. Morrison: I am not pronouncing upon the merits of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's idea. It would be competent for evidence to be given on that subject and for the Committee to make any representations they thought fit.
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: What facilities are to be made available to the Corporation and to the public to lay evidence before the Committee, and what facilities will be given to the Committee to ensure that all relevant information comes before them?
  Mr. Morrison: It will be for the Committee to make its own arrangements, but I imagine that it will be competent for members of the public to apply—it certainly will be—to give evidence. No doubt the Committee would give consideration to any application so made. Whether it will meet in public or private is for the Committee to determine, but on the last occasion it met in private.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is there any special reason why, when the personnel of a committee is read out, I never hear any reference to the hon. Member for West Fife? In view of the necessity for getting some Communist propaganda across the B.B.C., will not the right hon. Gentleman consider putting me upon the Committee?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Earl of Elgin supposed to represent Scotland, or the House of Lords?
  Mr. Morrison: The people who are put upon this Committee are there because they are considered to be competent for the post. I do not think that it would be wise to go into the question of what they represent. They are not delegates.

  TELEVISION ADVISORY COMMITTEE (CHAIRMAN)
  Mr. Molsonasked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement about the chairmanship of the Television Advisory Committee.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. H. Morrison): Yes, Sir. Lord Trefgarne, who has served as chairman for well over three years, now feels compelled by pressure of his other commitments to ask to be relieved of his post. [Interruption.] That is a very rude and ungracious intervention. I feel sure the House would wish me to express their keen appreciation of the important public service which he has rendered in this capacity. I am glad to say that my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General has been fortunate enough to secure the services of Sir William Coates as Lord Trefgarne's successor. Sir William Coates will be a member of the Committee of inquiry which is to advise on the organisation of British broadcasting.

  AGRICULTURE

    Sheep-worrying (Dogs)
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the serious problem created for farmers by sheep-worrying by dogs; and whether he is satisfied that the regulations in force provide sufficient powers for dealing with it.
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): Yes, Sir. I am well aware of the problem, and I think the existing regulations go as far as is practically possible in dealing with it. The main difficulty is, I fear, that of tracing dogs responsible for worrying sheep.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Would the right hon. Gentleman try to bring about something like "pairage" between dogs and sheep?
    Earl Wintertonasked the Minister of Agriculture if, in view of the damage to farming and the cruelty caused by the destruction of sheep by dogs not under proper control, he will introduce legislation conferring power upon the police to seize and destroy such dogs if a court order has been made for their destruction.
    Mr. T. Williams: Section 2 of the Dogs Act, 1871, already gives power to any court of summary jurisdiction, where it is satisfied, on complaint, that a dog is dangerous, to make an order directing the dog to be kept by the owner under proper control or destroyed.
    Earl Winterton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the police apparently have no power, where a dog has been proved to be dangerous to human beings—for instance, has bitten children—or has tortured to death sheep and lambs, to seize that dog, and destroy it, in cases where a contumacious person continues to keep it? It is true that the person is liable to a fine, but will the right hon. Gentleman have the law altered so that a dangerous dog can be seized and destroyed?
    Mr. Williams: The magistrates have power, once it has been proved that a dog is dangerous to man or beast, to insist upon the dog being placed under proper control or destroyed. If the decision is in favour of destroying the dog, the owner has the right to appeal to quarter sessions.
    Earl Winterton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have been several cases where the owner has been fined, but has refused to have the animal destroyed? Would not the simple and sensible way be to give the police power to seize the dog?
    Mr. Williams: Some persons have continued to keep their dogs, despite an order of the court for destruction, but they have had to pay a very heavy penalty for keeping the dogs alive.
    Sir William Darling: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to consider the registration of dogs through the police instead of through the Treasury and the Post Office, in order that the police may secure more adequate control?
    Mr. Williams: I am not prepared to introduce more forms at this moment.

    Plant Disease (Fertilisers)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will appoint a committee to inquire into the causes of increase in plant disease, the possible connection with greater use of artificial fertilisers, and the comparative results achieved by the Indore and similar methods depending on the biological basis of soil fertility.
    Mr. T. Williams: No, Sir. I am advised that there is no evidence that the increasing use of so-called artificial manures has had the effect that is suggested. I would add that scientific opinion is unanimous that the so-called artificial fertilisers should be supplemented by the addition to the soil of organic materials such as dung and compost or by the ploughing in of grass and clover swards.
    Mr. Collins: While agreeing with the observations of my right hon. Friend on this Question, I would like to ask whether he is not aware that there is a good deal of conflicting evidence on the subject. Does he not therefore think that some inquiry on this subject would serve a useful purpose?
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Is not the word "evidence" a misnomer? Should not the hon. Member say "conflicting statements"? There is no conflicting evidence.
    Mr. Williams: I was going to say to my hon. Friend that there is no conflict-
    2000
    ing evidence. In fact, this is a continuous investigation that goes on day by day and month by month.

    Form-filling
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will now consider taking steps to simplify and reduce the number of forms that at the present time farmers are required to fill in, with special regard to forms for feedingstuffs rations, fat stock sales, acreage payments, taking into consideration the elaborate farm accounts required, and the additional work of Pay As You Earn.
    Mr. T. Williams: All forms directly concerned with agriculture that farmers are required to complete are being scrutinised with a view to the elimination of any which do not serve an essential purpose, and to the simplification of the remainder.
    Mr. De la Bère: How can the right hon. Gentleman expect increased food production if recovery and progress are obstructed by interminable regimentation, bureaucracy and form-filling and unless forms are very drastically reduced?
    Mr. Williams: We grow food in the field and not in the office.
    Mr. De la Bère: Unless they are reduced this Government must go, and we must have another which will do something really effective.

    Horses (Veterinary Sera)
    Mrs. Leah Manningasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the present practice with regard to the inspection of horses used in the production of sera for veterinary use; and what steps are taken to ensure that they are treated with the same consideration as those animals furnishing sera for human beings.
    Mr. T. Williams: Horses used in the production of sera intended to be used solely for veterinary purposes are not at present subject to official inspection. I am, however, now preparing for consideration and discussion with interested parties the draft of an order under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1935, regulating the manufacture of veterinary therapeutic substances and including provisions relating to the health and treatment of animals used in the production of sera.
    Mrs. Manning: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether his answer means that the inspection for which I have asked, and which is very necessary in the case of some firms which are not as reputable as others, will be insisted upon?
    Mr. Williams: I have no power to insist upon that kind of inspection at the moment.

    Allotments Advisory Committee (Report)
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Agriculture, how soon he anticipates receiving the report of the Allotments Advisory Committee.
    Mr. T. Williams: The committee have not yet submitted their report, but I have reason to hope that they will do so before the Summer Recess.

    Cottage Homesteads (Purchase)
    Mrs. Manningasked the Minister of Agriculture whether tenants occupying cottage homesteads on Land Settlement Association estates will be allowed to purchase their houses in view of the fact that some of the estates are being purchased by local authorities within whose areas they are situated.
    Mr. T. Williams: The future of these housing estates is under discussion with the local authorities concerned but no decisions have been taken. As the cottage homesteads were acquired with the aid of public funds for the relief of unemployment, I would prefer they should now pass to the local authorities, subject of course to existing tenancies, and become part of the general housing pool. The wishes of some of the tenants to purchase the properties they occupy will however be borne in mind.

    Machinery Imports
    Mr. S. O. Daviesasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will give the number and types of agricultural machines, giving country of origin, imported into this country during the last six months; and how the prices of such imported machines compare with similar machines manufactured in this country.
    Mr. T. Williams: The reply to the first part of the Question involves a number of figures, which I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. No
    2002
    close comparison can be made between prices of home manufactured and imported machines because of differences in types, models and sizes, but the prices of imported machines are generally somewhat higher.
    Following are the figures:
    Imports of the main types of agricultural machinery in the six months ended 31st March, 1949, were as follow:

    Machine

    Country of origin

    Quantity

    Tracklaying tractors

    …

    U.S.A.

    202

    Wheeled tractors

    …

    U.S.A.

    371

    Ploughs

    …

    Canada

    300

    Eire

    60

    Belgium

    54

    U.S.A.

    13

    Drills

    …

    Canada

    528

    Eire

    103

    Sweden

    19

    Mowers

    …

    France

    450

    Eire

    195

    Binders

    …

    Canada

    980

    Combined harvesters

    …

    U.S.A.

    250

    Canada

    214

    Germany

    67

    Pick-up balers

    …

    U.S.A.

    964

    Germany

    30

    Mr. S. O. Daviesasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that works manufacturing agricultural machinery in the development area of South Wales, where there are large numbers of unemployed, are being handicapped by the importation of such machinery from abroad; and if he will take steps to permit British firms to meet our own needs in this respect before any more is brought from other countries.
    Mr. T. Williams: I am not aware that home manufacturers are so handicapped. Every encouragement is being given to home manufacturers to expand their output of all kinds of agricultural machinery, and imports are confined almost entirely to items that are not yet available in sufficient numbers from home sources.
    Mr. Davies: While that reply gives me some satisfaction, may I ask my right hon. Friend if he will inquire into works which are manufacturing agricultural machinery, particularly in the South Wales Development Area, with a view to seeing whether those works can make a much greater contribution towards the manufacture of such machinery? Is he aware that in the areas where these works

    2003
    are situated very large numbers of men are still unemployed?
    Mr. Williams: If my hon. Friend will bring to my notice any case where the imports of agricultural machinery are adversely affecting local production, I shall be very happy to look into it.
    Mr. Baldwin: In considering this matter will the right hon. Gentleman also give consideration to the steps which his colleague the Minister of Food is taking and, in the words of the Question:
    "Permit British firms to meet our own needs"—
    in horticultural products—
    "before any more is brought from other countries"?
    What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    Sugar-beet Pulp (Cost)
    Mr. J. H. Hareasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the reason for the considerable increase in the cost of sugar-beet pulp.
    Mr. T. Williams: The increase in price of dried sugar-beet pulp is part of the general increase in the level of feeding-stuffs prices announced in the statement I made in reply to my hon. Friend, the Member for Winchester (Mr. G. Jeger), on 24th January.
    Mr. Hare: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a more than 100 per cent. increase in the price of this feedingstuff bears extremely hard on those farmers who make most use of it? Does he realise that in the Eastern counties this will have a very serious effect on the production of milk and beef? Will he listen to representations that some reduction should be made in the increase?
    Mr. Williams: The increase in the price of this feedingstuff was taken into account when fixing prices for beet in the February review and also when we were fixing the price of the end product, namely, beef.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is thoroughly unsatisfactory?

    Sugar-Beet Acreage, Norfolk
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture what acreage of sugar-beet
    2004
    the Norfolk farmers have contracted to grow in 1949; how this figure compares with that of 1948; and whether he will give an estimate of the anticipated difference in the nett income to the grower per acre in 1949 compared with that in 1948.
    Mr. T. Williams: At 30th April last Norfolk farmers had contracted to grow 94,602 acres of sugar-beet this year, as compared with final contracts for 94,088 acres in 1948 and with 95,324 acres actually grown last year. No significant difference in the net income per acre of sugar-beet compared with 1948 is expected.
    Mr. Dye: Has not my right hon. Friend omitted the fact that most of the growers also buy back the pulp? The price of the pulp has been raised by no less than £7 a ton and the cheque does not include the cost of the pulp, so that the nett amount is bound to be less.
    Mr. Williams: Yes, Sir, but by the same rule there has been an increase of 2s. per ton over the average price for sugar-beet announced in 1947, and, of course, once the beet tops are fed to beef animals, there has also been an increase of 4s. 6d. a cwt. in the price of beef.
    Mr. Dye: Has not my right hon. Friend forgotten that he has allowed for a decrease in the price of the very large, beautiful bullocks now fattened in that area?
    Mr. Williams: If my hon. Friend will look at the price of feedingstuffs, he will find that the price of dried sugar-beet pulp is very much less than the price of other feedingstuffs; for instance, beet pulp, £12 11s. 3d. to £13 1s. 3d. compared with oats, £22 2s. 6d., maize, £19, and linseed cake or decorticated groundnut cake, about £21. Therefore, the price is not excessive.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Jannerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what reason single deck chairs are subject to Purchase Tax whereas two deck chairs permanently joined together are not subject to Purchase Tax; and whether he will investigate the possibility of rectifying this anomaly.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): Chairs that are structurally joined together for use in concert halls and similar purposes are free of Purchase Tax. On the other hand, all garden furniture is chargeable. If my hon. Friend is interested in a particular case, perhaps he would let me have details of it.
    Mr. Janner: Why is my hon. Friend putting this premium on the comfort of solitude? Is he aware that if two chairs are tied together there is no tax whereas if they are single there is a tax?
    Mr. Jay: This House has decided that domestic chairs should be subject to Purchase Tax. We take the view that when a number of chairs are joined together they are not domestic.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is it not a complete reversal of the normal principle of taxation that two people permanently joined together should have to pay more tax than if they were single?

    Trade Profits (Assessment)
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he proposes to set up the small independent committee to inquire into the method of computing net trade profits and the basis period for assessment to Income and Profits Tax.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): As soon as possible.

    Double Taxation (Eire)
    Mr. Molsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Agreement of 1926 with Southern Ireland to prevent double taxation will remain in force with the newly-created independent Republic; and what loss of revenue to the British Treasury has resulted from it to date.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes." As to the second part, information is not available but I would remind the hon. Member that the Agreement is a reciprocal one which benefits taxpayers of both countries.
    Mr. Molson: Are there any agreements similar to this with countries which are not still members of the British Commonwealth?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Yes, Sir, we have double taxation agreements with quite a large number of countries not all of which are in the British Commonwealth of Nations.

  L.C.C. HOUSING ESTATE, OXLEY
  Viscountess Davidsonasked the Minister of Health if he will state the date of the confirming of the Compulsory Purchase Order for the new London County Council housing estate at Oxley.
  Mr. Bevan: Twenty-eighth September, 1944.

  TYPHOID OUTBREAK, CROWTHORNE
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffeasked the Minister of Health whether he has received any information from the local authorities as to the cause of the outbreak of typhoid in Crowthorne, Berkshire.
  Mr. Bevan: The cause of this outbreak is being closely investigated by the local medical officials in association with medical officers of my Department and the Public Health Laboratory Service.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Has the right hon. Gentleman no further information yet as to the actual cause of the outbreak?
  Mr. Bevan: Not yet.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 16th May—Committee stage of the Ireland Bill.
Tuesday, 17th May—Completion of the remaining stages of the Ireland Bill by about 6.30 p.m.; and afterwards—
Third Reading of the Licensing Bill.
Wednesday, 18th May—Second Reading of the Finance Bill.
Thursday, 19th May—Supply (13th allotted Day)—Committee Debate on Fuel and Power.
Friday, 20th May—Second Reading of the Sea Fish Industry Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution; and, if there is time—
Report and Third Reading of the Prevention of Damage by Pests Bill [Lords].
Mr. Eden: With regard to the Business for Friday, the Sea Fish Industry Bill, inquiry at the Vote Office does not yet produce a copy of this document. Shall we really be asked to take this Bill when the House has not had an opportunity of seeing it? It cannot be all that urgent, so could not the right hon. Gentleman give more time to look at it?
Mr. Morrison: The Bill will be available about 5 o'clock today in the Vote Office. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is shorter notice than I would like, but it is a matter of fitting in the Business. I do not think the House will find this a particularly controversial Bill, at any rate for Second Reading purposes, though I imagine that matters will come up in Committee. While I appreciate that this is exceptional, nevertheless there will be a clear week, and I hope the House will be good enough to agree to the Second Reading on Friday.
Mr. Clement Davies: Do I understand that only one day is given for the Second Reading of the Finance Bill? Is it not possible, in view of the importance of that matter, that we should have an extra day, or at any rate extended time during Wednesday?
Mr. Morrison: It has been customary for some years to give one day to the Finance Bill. Of course a lengthy Debate on the Budget took place earlier on, but this is quite customary, and has been the case even with Budgets of a more complex and controversial character than this one.
Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to give facilities for the discussion of the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the names of a number of hon. Members regarding the increased telephone charges?
[That this House views with alarm the prospect of increased burdens upon and restrictions of commercial activity which will be caused by the proposed increase of telephone charges and considers that in
2008
the light of a disclosed Post Office surplus of over £10,000,000 on the telephone account alone such increases are quite unjustified and calls on the Government to annul the order enforcing these charges forthwith.]
Mr. Morrison: The hon. and gallant Gentleman will have a chance to discuss that, because I gather there must be a Bill about it, and there will be a Bill in due course.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is it not a fact that the Bill covers only one part of the charges and not the other?
Mr. Morrison: It covers the new charges.
Mr. Stanley indicated dissent.
Mr. Morrison: It covers the increased rentals which I thought were the change.
Mr. Stanley: No.
Mr. Morrison: Well, it covers the increased rentals, and I will look into the point. Of course it could be taken on a Supply Day. I had no notice that this point was coming up.
Mr. Stanley: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into it because I think he will find that the Bill covers only part of the charges, and it will not be possible to discuss the whole matter on a Supply Day because part of it will require legislation.
Mr. Morrison: I am now advised that the right hon. Gentleman is quite right, and I shall keep the point in mind.
Mr. Ivor Thomas: Will there be an opportunity of discussing the proposed Development Council for the wool industry, in view of the frigid response this has had from the industry?
Mr. Morrison: This is a new one. I did not know there was controversy about it to that extent.
Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when time will be given to debate the new Bill dealing with the merger of B.O.A.C. and British South American Airways?
Mr. Morrison: I understand that the Bill is before the examiners for some reason of Standing Orders. I do not think there will be undue delay in the discussion of the Bill in this House.
Commander Galbraith: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that a half day is sufficient for the Third Reading of such an important matter as the Licensing Bill? If he cannot give more time, will he consider suspending the Rule on Tuesday?
Mr. Morrison: The Bill has been discussed fully in Committee, there was an important Debate on Second Reading, and there have been good Debates on Report. In all the circumstances we thought half a day was enough. Some Bills go through in a shorter period than that.
Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: In view of the fact that there are certain elements in the House who might conceivably prolong proceedings on the Ireland Bill, is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to take the Third Reading of the Licensing Bill, whatever the hour?
Mr. Morrison: I had said that we hope to complete the Ireland Bill by 6.30 p.m. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Certainly, why should we not hope? I think it will probably be the case, and I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will not intervene for the purpose of spreading alarm and despondency. He might, for all he knows, put naughty ideas into people's heads.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In the event of the hopes of the right hon. Gentleman not being fulfilled, will he persist in going on with the Licensing Bill if he is not able to start it at the time he hopes?
Mr. Morrison: It is far better to meet troubles as they come and I do not feel that I should meet this one today. I have every belief that it will be all right.
Mr. Mitchison: Does my right hon. Friend realise that this place ought not to be a night club?

BILL PRESENTED
  SEA FISH INDUSTRY BILL
  "to provide for giving financial assistance to persons engaged in or desiring to engage in the sea-fishing industry, for regulating the crew accommodation provided in fishing boats, for safeguarding the quality of sea fish intended for human consumption and otherwise securing the best use of supplies of sea fish, for the licensing of fishing boats and of persons engaged in processing or wholesale dealing in sea fish, for appointing sea-fishery officers, for amending the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, with respect to fishing boats engaged in the Newfoundland cod fisheries, for repealing certain provisions of the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1938, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Thomas Williams, supported by Mr. Ede, Mr. Woodburn, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Strachey, Mr. J. J. Robertson and Mr. George Brown; read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 133.]

NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY
3.38 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I beg to move,
"That this House approves the North Atlantic Treaty signed in Washington on 4th April, 1949, relating to the promotion of stability and wellbeing in the North Atlantic area and to collective defence for the preservation of peace and security."
It is now my duty to present to the House the Motion standing in the name of the Members of the Government asking for the approval of the North Atlantic Treaty, which was signed in Washington on 4th April by the Foreign Ministers of Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom and the United States. I present this Motion on behalf of His Majesty's Government with complete confidence as to its acceptance, not only by the House but by the nation and, indeed, by all the peace-loving peoples of the world.
During, and at the end of the war we were active as a country in promoting the formation of the United Nations and other international machinery. We believed firmly that with the experience of the war it would be possible to put into use and develop co-operative machinery, so that these great problems of peace and stability might be dealt with on a basis of universality. In this connection we agreed to the special position given to the five great Powers within the Security Council, with the hope that co-operation between them might assist the world in this tremendous task. The House will be well aware, however, of the frustrations and disappointments due to the exercise of the veto and to other devices which we have experienced since San Francisco.
Notwithstanding the establishment of the United Nations and the conclusion of the peace treaties with Italy and the satellite countries, we were confronted with the grouping of nations in Eastern Europe which I submit was the first deliberate step taken to create a division in Europe. But while we went on trying to work through the machinery of the United Nations, we witnessed country after country being made absolutely subservient to Soviet Russia. In Poland the promise of free elections, made at Yalta and repeated at Potsdam, was treated with contempt. In Bulgaria, as late as
2012
December, 1945, there was a promise of proper treatment for the opposition parties, but it ended, I regret to say, in their leader being killed and Communist domination being made complete.
In Roumania the Government was wiped out and the new regime was established with a ruthlessness with which we are all familiar. In Hungary steps were taken to undermine the Smallholders Party, which had won the election, with the same final result. But perhaps the most ruthless act, which shook the world's conscience and which, I am certain, will echo and influence opinion for many years to come, was the coup in Czechoslovakia.
When we tried to handle the problem of the Danube by means of a conference, a conference in which the Soviet bloc had a majority, notwithstanding our rights—our historical rights—in that river, we were treated in a most shameful manner. We were told by Mr. Vyshinsky that the door was open, and that it was open to the Western Powers to leave. That is not a very good attitude to take up when negotiating an international settlement. It is no use disguising the fact that all the Western Powers were concerned as to what the outcome of all these moves would be. In Greece civil war was perpetuated by the outside influences of the Slav countries. The people of that nation have never been allowed since the war to settle down and live their own lives. The decisions of the United Nations were ignored and at the same time Turkey was subjected to a war of nerves. These moves were carried on month after month without respite.
The House will remember the efforts that were made to promote the next stage towards establishing a peace treaty for Germany, our efforts being directed to create order out of chaos, to introduce currency reform and to revive trade, and in this way to end the ill effects that the situation in Germany was having on the economic and political life of Europe. But we could not make any headway. Week after week we sat in those conferences, producing no result.
We were compelled in the end to work out plans for the economic and political organisation of our own zones in Western Germany. When we proceeded to take these very necessary steps we were suddenly confronted with the blockade of Berlin, an attempt to cut off two and a half million people with the view of

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driving the Western Allies out of Eastern Europe and to deny our rights which were a part of the Occupation Settlement. This blockade has happily been raised today, and I am convinced that the establishment of this closer link between the Atlantic nations has led to second thoughts about the tactics that had been followed regarding Germany, and particularly about Berlin.
The policy that has been followed by the Soviet Union seems to be to talk of peace and accuse others of being warmongers, but at the same time to carry on a policy of promoting unsettlement all round. I assert that this situation, if allowed to continue, would inevitably have led ultimately to war; for there would have come a moment when the rest of the world would have reacted violently to the tactics that were being pursued. A very dangerous situation existed in which those of us who had a good deal of responsibility tried to keep steady under the most provocative conditions.
We were driven to consider, in the light of these facts, how like-minded, neighbourly peoples, whose institutions had been marked down for destruction, could get together, not for the purpose of attack, but in sheer self-defence. We had to indicate to the world that if this totalitarian method of preaching peace and at the same time promoting disturbance and war was to be stopped, greater cohesion and understanding among the peace-loving peoples were absolutely necessary.
It must be remembered that from 1945 until the end of 1947 the three Western Powers were trying their hardest to settle the great problems left by the war. But while we have no personal feelings about the treatment meted out to us, I suggest that the provocative speeches and the general attitude of denunciation adopted at every meeting we attended were a symptom of aggressive intent. Meanwhile, everyone was concerned as to how we could bring order out of the economic chaos that existed in Europe and in other parts of the world as well.
We derived the greatest encouragement from the Marshall Aid offer, which was an indication of a great desire on the part of the United States to assist in healing the wounds of Europe and to put it back on its economic feet. In spite of the accusations about subservience to Ameri-
2014
can capitalism and aggrandisement which have been levelled at me and at others, I refused to be separated from the United States or to be dissociated from this great work. What happened was that our association with that offer to try to bring succour to starving people—starving by the millions—was shamefully denounced by Soviet Russia.
I can assure the House that at the time when the Marshall Aid plan was proposed things looked pretty bad. I shall not today go into the circumstances of the situation actually existing in Europe at that moment. There was, however, great nervousness, and Mr. Molotov's threat, made in Paris, when we decided to proceed with the Marshall Plan, was, we knew, no empty one. We knew it afterwards from events which followed in Italy, France and, even in this country, where there were attempts to influence the trade unions with the object of interrupting economic recovery. But it will be agreed, I think, that, owing to the steps which have been taken, these extreme and violent actions are now on the wane. The public, the men and women in the workshops, are now alive to the dangers. They can discern the difference between a dispute based on a legitimate grievance and one promoted on instructions from elsewhere.
At the same time, the Western Union Powers were compelled by these events to give serious attention to their defences. Most of the countries concerned had been over-run in the war. Their organisation for defence was in a weak state. In this country, in the belief that the United Nations would be a real basis of security, we were running our forces down to a bare minimum and directing the whole of our efforts to economic recovery. But it became necessary to give new consideration, in the light of these events, to the problem of defence and we, after consultation with our immediate neighbours, joined with them in the conclusion of the Brussels Treaty. At the time we signed that treaty, we had a very welcome statement from President Truman—I may say, unsolicited—who expressed warm approval of the action that had been taken in the provisions of that treaty. It was natural that we should turn to those of our neighbours and friends who we felt could come together and combine to produce greater security, for without that, there can be no recovery

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for anyone. I submit that if we had failed to do this we should not have done our duty to the nation or to the world. No one yet has submitted any effective alternative.
We then proceeded to discuss the question of a wider combination, which has now culminated in the Atlantic Pact. The accusation has been made that the Atlantic Pact is an aggressive thing and that it will bring war. My answer to that is that the absence of the Atlantic Pact did not stop war in 1914 or 1939, and I suggest that if a pact like this had existed and the potential aggressor had known what he would have to face, those wars might have been avoided. It is recorded that Goering, in talking to the United States ambassador at that time in his braggart way, boasting of what Germany could and would do, was reminded that if they precipitated this action it would inevitably bring in other powers and that they might be running the risk of involving the United States. His answer was that they could defeat their immediate enemies before the United States or the other countries would come in. It was the same gamble as that taken by the Kaiser.
In fact it is historically true that aggressors always make these calculations. They know that while a totalitarian State can talk peace in their propaganda, they can go on preparing for war without others knowing what is really happening or what is their ultimate intent. On the other hand, democracies have to face Parliaments. During peacetime there have been bitter debates on defence, great conflicts of opinion, and they arose because free people are naturally pacific. All these calculations are made by aggressors. They rely on possible hesitations and doubts, on criticism between the peace-loving countries themselves, on lack of understanding and even on differences between the administrators and military leaders. The aggressors generally come to the conclusion that by taking one nation at a time, they can pursue their way and work their will.
Having had to come through this twice in a generation, there is an absolute desire on the part of the peoples, including our own—and indeed they would hold this Government and Parliament itself responsible—to take steps to
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prevent any possible future aggressor being able to make these calculations and act upon them with impunity. In considering this problem of security, the traditional British conception is that the ocean is a link and not a barrier. Therefore treaties binding us to common action over such areas as that to which this Treaty relates are necessary for our mutual defences.
Another factor in this arrangement is that there is a common origin in the people living round the Atlantic Ocean, common moral and ethical standards and institutions derived from common origins and traditions. I would emphasise, therefore, that the real purpose of this pact is to act as a deterrent. Its object is to make aggression appear too risky to those who are making the calculations for they must realise before they start their nefarious game, that defeat is their certain end.
Aggression usually comes when one man, or a small number of men, start by getting complete control of their own country and then create an atmosphere of fear and mistrust among those around them. A fifth column is always a necessary part of their technique. But, the countries forming this Atlantic Pact are democratic countries. What is going on among them will be discussed in their Parliaments. It will be open to their Press; it will be known. The situation which we had in 1914 and 1939 and particularly 1940 and 1941, when we had to hold the fort waiting and wondering when other nations would realise the gravity of the aggressive menace, while at the same time we were using up and exhausting our resources—that situation should not be allowed to occur again. We have a common purpose to defend and what is more natural than that we should come together to defend it?
In the words of the Treaty, there will have to be an armed attack against any of us, or our territory, before we take action and, if that attack takes place, then we move together and not one at a time. We have always taken the view, since it was clear that the United Nations, for the time being at any rate, was not going to be allowed to work effectively, that the organisation of this group was essential. And we have believed that if it was established—and we have every

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reason to think it will work that way—its very existence would lead to confidence and to negotiation and the use of reason in the settlement of these very difficult problems.
In addition, these events which have led to the conclusion of the Atlantic Pact have given a great impulse to unity. The world has become very small from the point of view of communications, and correspondingly dangerous. Unity against aggression has therefore become more than ever important. This impulse has been shown to a great extent in the proposals for greater unity in Europe itself. The Atlantic Pact has greatly contributed to the confidence which has led to the establishment of the European Council, which sooner or later will grow into a very effective organism. I do not wish to discuss that subject today, but just to call attention to the influence of the pact on the confidence of the nations concerned by it.
We can therefore no longer be treated by others as a number of weak, divided nations. This new situation may well lead to a recognition of this fact and to a final settlement. It is not merely defence that we are concerned about. It is quite clear that as a result of the Atlantic Pact a general conception of closer unity and common planning has emerged which will make the whole of the Western world stronger and willing to contribute effectively to a basis for total world peace and stability. In my view it will be possible to work out that peace through the United Nations in such a way that our very strength will cause the Soviet bloc to recognise it and show a greater willingness to co-operate on a sensible and sound basis, and. I trust, relegate the old tactics to the limbo of the past.
It has been suggested that this Atlantic Pact abandons the idea of one world security system. It does nothing of the kind, neither is it intended to drive any one of us into isolation. It is essentially constructive and defensive. It is fully in conformity with the United Nations, and it is designed for no other purpose than to give security and peace to those who come within it, and to extend its help to those who are also struggling for the same ends. The pact is simple. It has no secret protocols. There is no loss of independence or sovereignty for the member nations.
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As to the question of arms, it is essential, after a war in which countries have been over-run and their arms destroyed, that their organisation for defence should be put right. I do not minimise the fact that that will cause some additional effort. But instead of the old method whereby each nation provided great and expensive services, the pact will allow us to consider this problem on a practical basis, rationalise it, and in the end provide for a reduction in the cost of armaments through comprehensive arrangements. The re-establishment of a proper organisation for defence in each country is, however, an essential preliminary. If, in the long run, a situation could be brought about that would make disarmament possible without endangering security, no one would welcome it more than the Atlantic Powers.
Turning to the actual clauses of the pact, they are explained very clearly in the White Paper, but I would draw the attention of the House to certain essential points. I reiterate, as the White Paper says, that we are joined together in a limited and close association based on Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations. Some critics have suggested that the Treaty is not consistent with the Charter, and have argued in particular that since the Treaty is a regional arrangement within the meaning of Chapter VIII of the Charter, it contravenes Article 53 which lays down that:
"… no enforcement action shall be taken under regional arrangements or by regional agencies without the authorisation of the Security Council. …"
The answer to this criticism is plain and straightforward. The Treaty is not a regional arrangement under Chapter VIII of the Charter. The action which it envisages is not enforcement action in the sense of Article 53 at all. The Treaty is an arrangement between certain States for collective self-defence as foreseen by Article 51 of the Charter. It is designed to secure the parties against aggression from outside until such time as the Security Council has taken the necessary measures. Enforcement action by a regional group is something quite different. It means a regional group acting on behalf of the Security Council to enforce peace upon one of its own members, and as such would certainly require the consent

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of the Security Council. I think it is necessary to make a clear distinction between these two conceptions.
There is nothing whatever in the Charter of the United Nations which requires that measures of self-defence must be authorised by the Security Council before they can be taken, and it would be absurd if it were so. The whole point of such arrangements for collective self-defence is that they cover the period before the Security Council has taken any action. This is what the Atlantic Treaty does; and in accordance with Article 51 of the Charter, any measures that the signatories of the Treaty may take in the exercise of their right of self-defence will be immediately reported to the Security Council, and will stop as soon as the Security Council does what is necessary.
This is all provided for in Article V of the Treaty. It follows from this that no such arrangement as the North Atlantic Treaty would have been found necessary at all if the effectiveness of the Security Council as an instrument for ensuring the immediate defence of any member against aggression had not been undermined and destroyed by the Soviet use of the veto, and by other actions of the Soviet Government to which I have referred. That is why we have signed this Treaty; because we must have security and because we have learned by bitter experience that we cannot get it at present through the Security Council.
I shall go further than this. Now that we have set up this defensive machinery, can we not hope that better counsels will prevail and that the day may soon come when all members of the Security Council will see the advantages of making it a really effective instrument for peace? The association is a natural one. This community of interest has always existed, and will continue to exist, and it is right to organise it in order that our political and democratic systems with their freedoms can be maintained. The Treaty contains in the Preamble the declaration that we reaffirm our faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and that we desire to live in peace with all peoples and with all Governments. This is not put in the Treaty as propaganda; it is a firm declaration. But if it is to be effective, then others must accept the same
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principles; and fifth columnists and their devices, the promotion of civil wars, the overthrowing of elected governments, the seizure of the administration and the arming of people in the workshops for revolution, do not seem to us to demonstrate a faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
With regard to Article 51, if I may return to it, the Charter clearly recognises the inherent right to individual or collective self-defence. It may be argued that the circumstances were not such as to cause us to take any measures to organise for self-defence. The evidence of recent events, of which I have already spoken, is so clear that this can well be left to the judgment of the House and the peoples of the countries taking part in this pact. We affirm the right of the parties under the Charter to settle any international dispute by peaceful means, and we pledge ourselves to refrain from the threat of the use of force in any matter inconsistent with the purpose of the United Nations.
Then we have stated in the pact that we are determined to combine to strengthen our free institutions and to bring about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, to promote conditions of stability and well-being, and to encourage international economic policies and economic co-operation among ourselves. This in itself will remove a great deal of rivalry. We shall co-operate with others if they will do so with us. But it is facts and deeds and not propaganda which will determine our action. We are pledging ourselves by this pact to maintain and develop our individual and collective capacity to resist an armed attack, by two means, by self-help and by mutual aid. Therefore, we must have means to defend ourselves, and we shall seek to bring about collectively such mutual assistance as will make these defences efficient without jeopardising economic recovery as contemplated under the European Recovery Scheme.
We have agreed to consult one another whenever the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any one of us is threatened. This does not mean that every time we consult there will be military action. We hope to forestall attack. We have to let the world know

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the facts. We have to seek to promote a peaceful settlement. In other words, there is this powerful group of countries willing to act through the United Nations or in any other way to promote peaceful solutions wherever possible.
I would call attention to this special commitment under Article 5, which states:
"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security."
The fact that these countries are now ratifying this Treaty and making this solemn pledge, we regard as a great and historic event. The constitutional rights of the individual Parliaments are preserved, for, as I have said, while we accept the condition that an attack on one of the parties constitutes an attack on all of them, we have to satisfy our Parliaments that that situation actually exists.
There is one other point which I should like to emphasise. This Treaty does not affect in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the United Nations of the parties which are members of the United Nations. It also declares that none of the other international agreements of the signatories conflicts with the Treaty, and from the point of view of the United Kingdom, we are satisfied that the Atlantic Pact is not in any way incompatible with the Anglo-Soviet Alliance. If both alliances can be operated correctly, there is hope that a state of universal peace may be produced. We have in this Treaty also provided machinery to give effect to it, and the House should note Article 9 which provides for the establishment of such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary, including the Defence Committee, to prepare the necessary measures under Articles 3 and 5. The provisions of this
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article give a practical turn to the Treaty. As will be seen, it provides a method to develop and expand as necessary, political and economic collaboration. The details of this machinery have yet to be worked out, and will be discussed and settled immediately the Treaty comes into force. We have also provided for the accession of other States.
As I stated in the House on a previous occasion, we believe that the conclusion of this pact will help to promote stability in other parts of the world. I have particularly referred to our special interest in the independence and integrity of Turkey and Greece, and in the area from Greece to Persia which includes many countries with whom we have special and long-standing relationships. Similar statements have been made by the United States Secretary of State regarding Turkey, Greece and Persia.
I therefore submit this Treaty to the judgment of the House, and I hope for its unanimous adoption. I am convinced that in it we have taken one of the greatest steps for peace. In co-operation with like-minded peoples, we shall act as custodians of peace and as determined opponents of aggression, and shall combine our great resources and great scientific and organisational ability, and use them to raise the standard of life for the masses of the people all over the world. We are determined, in order that this can be achieved, to create such conditions of peace and security that all will be undisturbed by the continuous threats of war which, if allowed to continue, would bring the best of human efforts to nought.
4.20 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: The House will not be surprised if I begin by saying that I find myself in very general agreement with the sombre speech which the Foreign Secretary has just made. I am glad that the lifting by the Soviet Government of the blockade of Berlin has not been taken by him as an occasion for proclaiming that an important peace gesture has been made. Before the last war, I do remember how, every time Herr Hitler made some reassuring statement, such as "This is my last territorial demand," people came to me and said, "There, now, you see how wrong you have been; he says it is his last territorial demand"; but the bitter experience

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we have all gone through in so many countries, on this side and on the other side of the Atlantic, has made us more wary of these premature rejoicings upon mere words and gestures.
We give our cordial welcome to the Atlantic Pact. We give our thanks to the United States for the splendid part they are playing in the world. As I said when over there the other day,
"Many nations have risen to the summit of world affairs, but here is a great example where new-won supremacy has not been used for self-aggrandisement, but only further sacrifices."
The sacrifices are very great. In addition to the enormous sums sent to Europe under Marshall Aid, the Atlantic Pact entails further subsidies for military supplies which are estimated at over 1,000 million dollars up to the year 1950. All this has to be raised by taxation from the annual production of the hard-working American people, who are not all Wall Street millionaires. Quite a number of them are not millionaires, but are living their lives in very different parts of the country from Wall Street. I say that nothing like this process of providing these enormous sums, very much more, I think, than the whole of the American revenue, for defence and assistance to Europe—nothing like this has ever been seen in all history. We acknowledge it with gratitude, and we must continue to play our part—I say continue to play our part—as we are doing in a worthy manner and to the best of our abilities.
Our differences with the Soviet Government began before the war ended. Their unfriendly attitude to the Western Allies was obvious before the end of 1945, and, at the meeting of the United Nations organisation in London in January, 1946, Anglo-Russian relations had already reached a point where the Foreign secretary had to give the word "lie" in open conference to Mr. Vyshinsky. I was impressed with that indication, which I read in the newspapers, and I was also very much impressed with the statements made at that time by Mr. Vandenberg, that great American statesman, as I will not hesitate to call him. His whole career in recent years has been to carry world security and righteous causes far above the level of the fierce and repeated American political contentions and elections.
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I have always myself looked forward to the fraternal association of the English-speaking world and also to the union of Europe. It is only in this way, in my view, that the peace and progress of mankind can be maintained. I gave expression to these views at Fulton in March, 1946, after the remarks to which I have referred had shown the differences which had arisen with Russia. Although what I said then reads very tamely today, and falls far short of what has actually been done, and far short of what the House actually has to vote at the present time, a Motion of Censure against me was placed on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) in the following terms:
"World Peace and Security.—That this House considers that proposals for a military alliance between the British Commonwealth and the United States of America for the purpose of combating the spread of Communism, such as were put forward in a speech at Fulton. Missouri, U.S.A., by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford are calculated to do injury to good relations between Great Britain, U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R., and are inimical to the cause of world peace."
That is the operative part. It is quite unusual, when a Private Member is out of office, that a Motion of that kind should be placed upon the Order Paper with regard to a speech made on his own responsibility, but no fewer than 105 hon. Members of the party opposite put their names to it. I do not see them all here today; some of them are here, but, of course, I feel that there has been a large scale process of conversion, and, naturally, I welcome converts, and so do His Majesty's Government. They say that "there is more joy over one sinner who repenteth than over ninety and nine just persons who need no repentence." Here, we have got about a hundred in a bunch, so far as I can make out, although some of them have emphasised the change of heart which they have gone through by a suitable act of penance by abstaining from attending this Debate.
Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne) rose—
Mr. Churchill: Far be it from me to refuse an opportunity to a penitent.
Mr. Silverman: I was only going to say in all humility to the right hon. Gentleman that because a number of people are prepared to support the calling in of the fire brigade, that does not

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mean that they withdraw one word of censure from those who contributed to the setting of the house on fire.
Mr. Churchill: I did not expect that such a condemnation of the Soviet Government's policy would be forthcoming from the hon. Gentleman. For all these reasons, it is most certainly true that the occasion is not entirely unmingled with joy, for the country sees so many who have changed their courses, but I say that we are now asked to approve this Atlantic Pact, and the only opposition to it is expected from that small band of Communists, crypto-Communists and fellow-travellers whose dimensions have been very accurately ascertained in recent times.
In all this matter, the policy of the Foreign Secretary has been wise and prudent. We have given it our fullest support, and we shall continue to do so. There is, of course, a difference between what a private Member of Parliament may say, even if his words carry far, and what a Minister has to do. To perceive a path and to point it out is one thing, but to blaze the trail and labour to construct the path is a harder task, and, personally. I do not grudge the right hon. Gentleman any credit for the contribution which he has made to bringing about the Atlantic Pact. It entitles him, and the Government he represents, to the congratulations of the House which will be formally signified tonight by the passing of this Motion.
We must not, however, lose sight of the fact that the prime agent is the United States. I agree with what the Foreign Secretary said, that if the United States had acted in this way at an earlier period in their history—I am not quoting his exact words, but he implied that if they had they might well have averted the first world war, and could certainly, by sustaining the League of Nations from its birth, have warded off the second. The hope of mankind is that by their present valiant and self-sacrificing policy they will be the means of preventing a third world war. The future is, however, shrouded in obscurity.
As I have said on former occasions, we are dealing with absolutely incalculable factors in dealing with the present rulers of Russia. No one knows what action they will take, or to what internal pressures they will respond. He would be a bold, and, I think, an imprudent man who
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embarked upon detailed prophecies about what will be the future course of events. But it is absolutely certain that the strengthening by every means in our power of the growing ties which unite the signatories of the Atlantic Pact, of the Brussels Treaty, and the signatories of the Statute of the Council of Europe—on all of which there is overwhelming agreement in this House—is our surest guarantee of peace and safety. Now we must persevere faithfully and resolutely along these courses.
While I like the strong note which was struck by the Foreign Secretary in his speech this afternoon, we must persevere along these courses. It has been said that democracy suffers from the weakness of chopping and changing, that it can never pursue any course for any length of time, especially Parliamentary democracy. But I think that may prove to be a phase from which we are shaking ourselves free. At any rate, persistence at this time and a perseverance which is emphasised in the speech of the Foreign Secretary is, we on this side are quite certain, the safest course for us to follow and also the most right and honourable course for us to follow.
It has been said that the Atlantic Pact and the European Union are purely defensive conceptions. The Foreign Secretary has claimed that they are not aggressive in any way. How could they be? When we consider the great disparity of military strength on the Continent of Europe, no one can doubt that these measures are of a defensive and non-aggressive character. The military forces of the Soviet Union are at least three or four times as great as those which can be set against them on land. Besides this, they have their fifth column in many countries, waiting eagerly for the moment when they can play the quisling and pay off old scores against the rest of their fellow countrymen. Nothing that can be provided in the Atlantic Pact or the Western Union Agreement on land can make our position and policy other than purely defensive. It remains the first duty of all the signatory Powers to do their utmost to make Europe, and for us here to make Britain, self-supporting and independently secure. For this we must all labour.
I have only a word or two of detail to say upon the subject. It seems that our first duty is to put our own defences in

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order. I cannot feel—none of us can feel—that any adequate return in actual fighting power is being received for the vast sums of money and the very great numbers of men which Parliament is voting at the request of the Government. There seems, also, to be no close integration of military plans and forces on the Continent. There is no system comparable to that which was created at S.H.A.E.F., the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force. There, there was great unity under the wise guidance of General Eisenhower. But, according to unofficial reports which we hear, national considerations are playing far too great a part in the present discussions which are taking place.
Thirdly, in view of the inevitable delay in the ratification of the Treaty and the need for speed, I have heard the suggestion that it might be desirable to broaden the activities of the Western Union Military Committee by inviting representatives of the other Atlantic Treaty Powers, namely, the Italians, Portuguese, Danes, Norwegians and Icelanders, at any rate occasionally, to attend the Western Union Committee at Fontainebleau as observers. However, I should not wish to impede the precision of their work by the mere addition of numbers. Nevertheless, this might be an advantage.
The absence of Spain from the Atlantic Pact involves, of course, a serious gap in the strategic arrangements for Western Europe. I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman, not this afternoon, but the other day, express himself in a favourable sense to the return of ambassadors. I do not ask more than that at the present time. I think it is better to have ambassadors than to carry it all on through the back door, as it all has to be carried on—a sort of black market diplomacy. Also, I do not think it a good thing to appear to insult and to appear to treat with lack of ceremony a people so proud and haughty as the Spaniards, living in their stony peninsula, have always shown themselves to be.
The services rendered by Spain to us in the war were not all negative. First of all, we had a most fertile and serviceable trade with Spain which, in one way or another, the Germans did not dare to interfere with. Products of the greatest value, both to our armaments and to our nourishments, were brought in, but it was
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at the time of the landing in North Africa—Operation "Torch"—that the greatest forbearance was shown by Spain in allowing us to use, far beyond any treaty rights, the harbour of Algeciras and the neutral ground between Gibraltar and the mainland for our aeroplanes and for the gathering of our transports. It was a most anxious period for us because the whole of that great operation—the first great Anglo-American joint operation—would have been jeopardised if they had chosen, as they so easily could have done, to plant cannon on the hills overlooking the harbour, and fire them upon the shipping crowded therein.
I cannot feel at all that they did us harm in the war and I personally agree with what Senator Connally said in the American Senate the other day, that he could not see the sense of having relations with Soviet Russia and refusing to have any relations with Spain.
Mr. Skeffington-Lodge Mr. Skeffington-Lodge (Bedford) rose—
Mr. Churchill: As a matter of fact, the conditions under which people live in Spain give far greater freedom to the individual than those under which they live in Russia or, I may say, Bulgaria or Roumania or other countries which have fallen into the grip of—Yes, jump up now, if you like.
Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: The right hon. Gentleman said that he agrees with the expression of opinion of an American Senator. Does he also agree with the expression of opinion which appeared in "The Times" today and which comes from Mr. Acheson, the Secretary of State, in which Mr. Acheson says that the Franco Government was set up by Hitler and Mussolini and that it is patterned on Germany and Italy, and in which he adds that the judiciary is not independent in Spain today and habeas corpus is quite unknown?
Mr. Churchill: I should not like to live under the present Spanish regime, but I would rather live there than under the Governments of the various countries I have just mentioned, and I imagine that would be the opinion of almost every Member of this House who is not either blinded by fanaticism or sure he would get most favoured treatment in the circumstances which might arise.

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As I say, I am not suggesting that we should go further at all at the present time than to have the interchange of ambassadors. At the time of Potsdam, I agreed that Spain should not be a member of the United Nations organisation because I felt it was more important to gather together other elements, nor do we include Spain in our United Europe movement, but let us at least take the step of abandoning insult and boycott and exchange formal ambassadors with that country. I am sure that the attitude and policy which has been pursued in the last three years has been a great service to Franco and has enabled him to secure his hold, which might otherwise have been greatly mitigated.
Those are the only points of detail which I venture to mention. This may be an occasion for satisfaction, but it is not an occasion for triumph or for exultation. We are on the eve of the Four-Power Conference out of which we may hope a peace treaty with Germany may come. We must give that conference the best possible chance and be careful not to use language at this juncture which would hamper its discussions or compromise its chances of success. At the same time, I am glad that the Foreign Secretary is not under any illusions and that we shall not be deceived by gestures unaccompanied by action. It is deeds, not words, which are wanted. Any deed done by the Russian Soviet Government which really makes for the peaceful and friendly intercourse of mankind will have its immediate response, but mere manoeuvres must be watched with the utmost vigilance.
Moreover, there can be no assurance of permanent peace in Europe while Asia is on the Elbe or while so many ancient states and famous capitals of Eastern Europe are held in the grip of the 13 men who form the oligarchy of the Kremlin. The Communist gains in China and the disturbances, all springing from the same source, which are causing so much misery in South-East Asia, all bring home to us the magnitude of the great struggle for freedom which is going on under the conditions of what is called the "cold war." We are confronted with a mighty oligarchy disposing not only of vast armies and important armaments by sea and in the air, but which has a theme, almost a religion, in the Communist doc-
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trine and propaganda which claims its devotees in so many countries and makes them, over a large portion of the globe, the enemies of the lands of their birth.
There is this fear which the Soviet dictators have of a friendly intercourse with the Western democracies and their hitherto inflexible resolve to isolate the enormous populations they control. They even fear words on the broadcast. Everyone in this country is free to turn on to the Russian broadcasts at any hour of the day, and I am bound to say I am very glad that they should be free to do so. It would be a terrible thing if we were afraid of anything that might be said about us on the broadcasts. It is a woeful admission of a guilty conscience or a defective political system when you are afraid to let your people listen to what goes on abroad. We soon got used to "Lord Haw-Haw" during the war, and we never feared what he might have said about us. It is astonishing that there should be this terror in the hearts of these men, wielding such immense material and physical power, merely of words let out by our fairly harmless B.B.C. upon the ether. They must have very poor nerves to get alarmed by that. But the fact remains that there is this fear—fear of friendship and fear of words, and it acts upon men who wield the most terrible agencies of military force.
The situation is, therefore, from many points of view unprecedented and incalculable. Over the whole scene reigns the power of the atomic bomb, ever growing in the hands of the United States. It is this, in my view, and this alone that has given us time to take the measures of self-protection and to develop the units which make those measures possible, one of which is before us this afternoon. I have said that we must rise above that weakness of democratic and Parliamentary Governments, in not being able to pursue a steady policy for a long time, so as to get results. It is surely our plain duty to persevere steadfastly, irrespective of party feelings or national diversities, for only in this way have we good chances of securing that lasting world peace under a sovereign world instrument of security on which our hearts are set. We shall, therefore, support His Majesty's Government in the

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Motion which the right hon. Gentleman has just commended to us.
4.50 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: This is a great day for the Foreign Secretary. It is the culmination of months—indeed, of years now—of persistent and consistent effort on behalf of the free peoples of the world and on behalf of democracy and democratic institutions. Today he comes to ask the House for its approval of an agreement which has been made between himself, on behalf of the Government and the people of this country, and 11 other countries. I hope—or rather I should say, I wish—that the House will give him unanimous approval. I am quite certain that the House will, by an overwhelming majority, approve of his agreement and ratify his signature. Not only will the House approve, but the free peoples, not only of this country but of the Commonwealth, will also approve.
I am convinced that war and the fear of war will not be abolished until all the States of the world, the Governments and the peoples, recognise and respect one rule of law, universal in its application, governing the strong as well as the weak, and without any qualification or exception; until there is in existence an equity tribunal commanding by its structure, its independence, and its impartiality, the confidence of all, to which may be referred disputes for peaceable settlement; finally until there is established an unchallengeable world international police force to deal effectively and immediately With any aggressor State or people. That, I believe, must be the ultimate aim. Selfishness, an egotistical attitude, and what I may call State snobbery, which begat isolationism and refusal to co-operate with others, has prevented, so far, the achievement of this aim.
But, in spite of or, perhaps, because of the two tremendous wars through which we have passed—those destructive and devastating world wars—various steps towards that ultimate goal have been taken. There was first, of course, before the two wars the Hague Conference of 1905; and then, after the First World War, the League of Nations, which failed largely because the United
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States of America decided to outlaw themselves from the League; and then the United Nations organisation, whose failure to achieve what we had all hoped it might have accomplished by this time is due to the right of veto, its use and abuse—to the fact, as we have seen, that we were not all, the weak as well as the strong, governed by one law, but that some were placed above the law.
I regard this Atlantic Pact as an historic step—one of the highest and most advanced steps—towards the goal of universal peace. Its development has arisen from the failure of the United Nations organisation to bring about that peace and understanding which every one of us desires. It is due, as I have already suggested, to the use and misuse of the veto, to the aggressive actions of Stalin and others at Moscow, and the Communists, not merely there but throughout the world, and those who would glorify war, destruction and devastation. Though this pact is consistent with the principles and the purposes of the Charter, it is, to my mind, even an advance, in one respect at any rate, on the Charter: there is no right of veto in this pact, no distinction between the strong and the weak. Luxembourg and Iceland are on the same footing with regard to rights and obligations as the United States of America and ourselves.
It is a purely defensive pact for
"collective defence for the preservation of peace and security."
Those are the dominant words in the pact. It must be, I suggest—and it was really suggested by the Foreign Secretary—well-nigh impossible for the Government of a free democracy, holding their position by the free, full suffrage of the people of their country, to wage an aggressive war. I would suggest that it is absolutely impossible for several Governments holding their positions by the full, free suffrage of their peoples, amounting to 330 million all told, to wage at any time a war of aggression. Free peoples will unite in a war of defence, but of defence only; not in a war of aggression. We are entitled and, in my view, we are in duty bound, to ourselves and to coming generations, to take all measures to safeguard our freedom, our common heritage, and our own form of civilisation, founded, as they are, upon principles of democracy, in-

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dividual liberty, and the rule of law. To me, life without liberty would be meaningless, and a useless form of existence. Slavery is a living death and the sacrifice of all human dignity upon the degrading altar of mere existence.
I hope and believe that this is the beginning of a new commonwealth. I hope it may grow in unity and in strength, and lead to even closer relationships, economically, politically and fraternally, between the peoples and governments who have agreed to sign this pact. I hope also that its area will be extended, so that gradually the principles will be extended over a far wider area, and accepted by all peoples. Article 10 provides the key whereby others, including, if ever they choose to accept the principles of the preamble, the Russian peoples, or any other peoples in Eastern Europe, may enter this new sanctuary.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Article 10 provides that that extension cannot be made unless made by unanimous agreement. Does that not mean that one nation—say, Iceland or Luxembourg—can bar the entrance of either Soviet Russia or any other country?
Mr. Davies: Surely, the whole object is common defence, according to the words of the preamble, and I would read Article 10 as meaning that anybody, in any part of Europe, who will assent to the principles laid down in the preamble, can make an application to the others for admission; and that would mean the opportunity to extend the area covered by his pact. The only persons who can object to the pact are those who see their own plans and their own ambitions frustrated, and who still hope by any means, however foul—by war, destruction, devastation, murder, torture, and imprisonment—to impose their will and their way of life upon all others. Naturally, they feel frustration, chagrin and anger, and their very anger provides the best evidence of the urgent need there was for such a pact. So long as there are criminally-minded men in the world in positions of power, then decent-minded people, who only desire to continue their ordinary and peaceful avocations in life, must agree to unite to defend their liberty, their heritage, and their own mode of life.
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None of the nations, not even the United States of America, can risk standing alone. The powers of aggression and darkness are too great and too threatening. The strength to defend peace—even to prevent war—lies in unity, and in unity alone. I agree with what was said by the Foreign Secretary, that if this pact had been made, the war of 4th August, 1914, would not have broken out. If this pact had been made early in 1939, the Second World War would not have broken out in September of that year. If this pact had been made some time before 1939, few of us would ever have heard even of Hitler—
Mr. Zilliacus: Is it not a fact that the Triple Entente existed before 1914, and did not prevent a war?
Mr. Davies: That Entente was limited, as the hon. Member knows, to the few nations which composed it; America had not come in. If the Kaiser and Hitler had known that the United States would have come in, in defence of free democracy, I very much doubt whether either of those two wicked aggressors would have ventured to do what they did.
A mere survey of the manpower and industrial strength of the 12 Powers concerned in the pact is itself a warning to any would-be aggressor. Their tremendous potentiality is a guarantee of peace. The pact mobilises the forces of peace, for the first time before the outbreak of war, against the forces of aggression and exploitation. What could be better designed to avoid disputes and quarrels than Articles 1 and 2? Does anyone object to those articles? They provide not merely for negotiation, conciliation and arbitration but also for mutual aid, political as well as economic, so as to remove the causes of quarrels, envies and jealousies. I hope that Articles 3 and 4 will be used effectively. Supply should become a collective responsibility and information should be pooled. National pride should not be allowed to stand in the way of permitting the use of bases necessary to ensure prompt and effective co-operation and collective defence.
The Liberal Party, for whom I am speaking, have never been a war party; no one has ever accused us of being in favour of war.
Mr. Gallacher: That is not so.
Mr. Davies: We have always been in favour of peace. The accusation usually brought against us is that we have not been sufficiently active on the defence side in promoting large armaments. To us the paramount purpose of the agreement is the furtherance of peace, the prevention of war, and the collective security of the free peoples in defence of their form of democracy, their heritage and their way of life. On behalf of all Liberals, not only in this House, but everywhere, I welcome and support this pact.
5.3 p.m.
Mr. Warbey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) began by congratulating the Foreign Secretary on his day of triumph. This is, indeed, a day of triumph for my right hon. Friend in many respects. The ending of the Berlin blocade which, I think, we can rightly celebrate today as a great step forward in post-war development, is due, I believe, not so much to the so-called success of Allied diplomacy as is suggested in some quarters, but rather to the firmness, patience and common sense which was shown by the Foreign Secretary. What my right hon. Friend did in relation to the Berlin blockade was done in the face of provocation from hon. and right hon. Members opposite, who demanded the use of force, and in the face of hot-headed statements by American generals who wanted to make use of armed force. In the face of these demands the Foreign Secretary insisted upon following a patient and costly form of appeasement—for the air lift was a form of appeasement, and I supported it as an alternative to the use of armed force. We ought to pay tribute to the Foreign Secretary because he did not allow this country to be led into a course, last autumn in particular, which might have plunged the whole world into disaster.
I hope, however, that we shall not try to draw too far-reaching conclusions from the success of the air lift. Some people are suggesting that the Russians are now showing a greater disposition to be reasonable because of the display of Allied air might in and around Berlin. There are some—and I regret to say that they include the Foreign Secretary—who
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imagine that the North Atlantic Pact, and the assembly of military force with which it confronts the Soviet Union, is in itself the cause of the willingness of the Soviet Union to enter into discussions. We ought to have a rather clearer idea about the motives of Soviet policy if we are to come not only to a reasonable understanding with that country but are to grapple with the problems to which Russia gives rise in international affairs. The principal motive of Russian policy over the last 18 months has been to prevent a division of Germany into two halves, and the establishment of Western Germany under Allied control and the Ruhr under Western control as a possible bastion and spearhead against Russia and Eastern Europe. That is the great fear in the minds of the Russians which we ought to recognise.
It is to prevent the realisation of that fear that the Russians have now taken steps to bring about discussions which they hope will lead to the unity of Germany rather than its division. They tried to force us to give up the division of Germany and the creation of a Western German State by imposing a blockade. They failed in endeavouring to use coercion, but is there any reason why they should not now succeed by adopting a more reasonable attitude? I hope we shall co-operate with Russia in achieving a settlement for a united Germany. From the point of view of Russia, ourselves and the whole of the Western world there cannot be anything more disastrous for the peace of Europe than that Germany should finally be divided into two halves, that there should be competition between those halves for the favours of the rival victor Powers, a revival of nationalist claims in Germany and eventual competition in rearmament in the two halves by the respective sides in this conflict. That is the gravest danger which confronts Germany, and possibly the world, today.
It is because these dangers will be increased rather than diminished by this treaty that, unless we can have assurances given very clearly by the British Government, I shall not feel it possible to give it my support in the Lobby this evening. There are many aspects of this treaty which are causing uneasiness, at least to hon. Members on this side of the House and in the Labour movement in the country as well. It would take many hours to go into every aspect of this treaty which

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causes us concern. I would prefer to touch briefly on one or two of them before coming to what appear to me to be the main issues.
First, it must be clear to us that if we enter into this military alliance with the United States which, after all, is the essence of the thing, stripped of all verbiage, the United States will be the dominant partner. The United States, with its resources for the manufacture of atom bombs, with its industrial potential four times greater than ours, with its arms expenditure five times greater than ours, will be the dominant partner in this alliance. As a result, British defences, British strategic planning and British foreign policy will, quite inevitably, come more and more under the domination of those of the United States.
I hope that hon. Members will have observed that Article 3 of this treaty lays upon this country an obligation to increase our expenditure on armaments, because that article says that the parties to the treaty:
"will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack."
"Develop" means expansion, increase. Therefore, the warning already given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech is one which is amply justified by Article 3 of the treaty. We know what to expect—a further increase in the cost of living in this country and a possible reduction in social services if we are to carry out the obligations which will be laid upon us and pressed upon us from the American side in connection with this treaty. I say that because, with the usual paradox which we witness in capitalist economies, the American capitalist economy will continue to gain by increasing rearmament, and therefore they will press us to play our part as well in this collective enterprise and not be left behind in the race; but whereas rearmament will help to keep their crazy capitalist economy on its feet, rearmament in countries with planned economies like our own, can only mean reductions in standards of living.
One turns to the countries which are being invited to join this treaty. The inclusion of Italy makes nonsense of the geographical content of the treaty, and adds a liability rather than an asset to the Western bloc. Does anyone suppose
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that the Italian workers, or even any large proportion of the Italian peasants, will be prepared to fight for America against Russia if the issue arises? I do not think that hon. Members ought to be deceived on that matter. Anyone who knows Italy, knows that they will not fight if that conflict comes. That is demonstrated by the fact that we find in Italy against the Atlantic Pact, not only the Communists, not only the Nenni Socialists, the Left-Centre and Right, but also the Silone Socialists, half of the Saragat Socialists, and also Republican Democrats like Nitti and Orlando.
The inclusion of Portugal makes complete nonsense of the preamble to the North Atlantic Treaty, which speaks of the signatories being
"determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law."
Democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law do not exist in Portugal. The fact that Portugal is included will make it impossible, in course of time, to refuse the inclusion of Franco Spain, which is already demanded by some hon. Members opposite. It was, in effect, demanded by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) today, because he said that he regarded the decision of my right hon. Friend to allow our Ambassador to return to Spain as a step in the right direction and sufficient for the time being. He knows very well that it is a step in the direction of the eventual inclusion of Franco Spain. How can it be refused if Portugal is included?
Then there is the inclusion of Norway. I have immense admiration for the courage of the Norwegians, but I believe that on this issue they have been foolhardy. The following authoritative comment on what the inclusion of Norway in the treaty really means was made by one who is hardly a fellow traveller, Mr. John Foster Dulles, when he said:
"Our fellowship with the peoples of Western Europe ought not to seem to bring United States military might directly to Russia's border."
He went on to say that:
"it would involve a high tribute to Soviet leaders to assume … they would exercise more self-control than would our people under comparable circumstances, as for example, if the Soviet Union had military arrangements with a country at our border."

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That brings me to the essence of the matter. I do not see how the Soviet leaders can possibly regard this treaty as anything other than provocative, and as a threat to their own continued peaceful existence. I do not see how they can, because I know very well that if a similar pact had been formed by the Soviet Union and another great Power, and we had been specifically named as the Power against whom they were aligned to defend themselves, we should have regarded their activities as aggressive and as threatening us and leading us to fear the worst in regard to the future.
Mr. Thomas Reid: Does my hon. Friend try to compare a country which has a Communist aggressive Government and a democratic Government like our own? Surely if the one Government has arms and the rest, it is a different matter from the other Government having them?
Mr. Warbey: My hon. Friend makes that usual over-simplification, for which we often blame our Communist friends, of just equating words. He speaks of "a Communist aggressive Government." It is very nice when one can slip out a word in that kind of way, as though the fact of "Communist" automatically implied that it was aggressive. That is just the kind of reasoning which is unfortunately followed by many people in Russia, who say that just because America is capitalist, it is therefore, ipso facto, aggressive. It is because we have both sides talking this utter nonsense and going on talking it, that the world is really faced with the danger of war.
There are people saying, as did the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) that this military alliance is purely defensive, that we do not intend aggression to anybody. On their side, the Russians say exactly the same, and what is to one side a defensive alliance, is to the other a potentially aggressive alliance—just as the American occupation of a military base in Iceland appears defensive to America but appears aggressive to Russia, and just as our Communist friends claim that the large Russian arms budget is purely defensive, whereas right hon. Members opposite claim that the even larger American arms budget is also purely de-
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fensive. The point is that they are both intended to be defensive, and they will both ultimately result in aggression if that kind of thing goes on. The same applies to the military alliances. They are intended to be defensive, and they will eventually result in world conflict if they continue.
The greatest fallacy of all is the one that was uttered by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, repeating my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that peace will be preserved in the world because we are building up an overwhelming strength sufficient to deter any aggressor from breaking the peace. That fallacy is repeated in the White Paper bearing yesterday's date, which was issued presumably in an effort to calm the anxieties and doubts of hon. Members in some parts of the House. We have it said again in paragraph 5 of this White Paper. It says that the united strength of the parties to the Atlantic Treaty
"is so great that the final defeat of any aggressor is certain."
When the parallel of the Triple Alliance before the 1914–18 war was quoted, it was said, "But at that time we did not have the United States in." Yes, but this time we may have on the other side far vaster Powers and areas of the world than there were on the other side in 1914–18.
If we build up a polarisation, a power bloc around Washington—because that is what it is—then we are encouraging similar polarisation in the other part of the world. The fact that the core of the Western Power bloc is Anglo-Saxon, the fact that the core consists of those countries which are colonial or were formerly colonial countries, will drive large parts of Asia into the arms of the Soviet bloc. One inevitable consequence of this Treaty and of the building up of a power bloc based on Britain and the United States is to lead to the building up of an even vaster power bloc on the other side of the world. Then where is that overwhelming strength which is going to ensure the inevitable defeat of our opponents? It is an illusion. It is the old illusion of military alliances and balances of power, which is being repeated on this occasion.
Mr. John Paton: I am very interested in this argument, and I should

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like to be clear about what the hon. Member's thesis actually is. Am I right in thinking that the thesis is that Russian policies always inevitably follow and are conditioned by the policies of the Western Powers?
Mr. Warbey: I think it is quite clear that the policies of all great Powers must be influenced by the policies of others. It is quite clear in this matter—and I shall say this for my right hon. Friend and for those hon. Members who will support him in the Lobby tonight, as many of them no doubt will—that what they are doing is a reaction to much that has been done and said by the Soviet Union in the last three or four years. I give that to them.
I can understand their reactions to some of the ways in which the Soviet Union has behaved in the last three years or so, but I say to them: You are allowing yourselves to be driven down a fatal course by Soviet and American policy; you have not an independent foreign policy of your own; you are allowing your foreign policy to be determined for you by other countries, by reacting sometimes in the way that they would like you to react; on the assumption that the Soviet Union wants to weaken democratic Socialism, which many of my hon. Friends believe, on the assumption that the Soviet Union wants to see democratic Socialism fail, you could not do anything better to help them than by joining in a military alliance with the United States, by engaging in competitive rearmament, by destroying the possibility of building up a really constructive Socialist European union, by poisoning it and by concentrating on military combinations and alliances. That is giving away the case to the Communists.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting as a corollary to his argument that the solution would be that all countries should disarm except the Soviet Union, leaving each country threatened and quite helpless, to be picked off like ripe plums one by one?
Mr. Warbey: I have never defended unilateral disarmament. I am not one of those who believe that the way in which to get peace is totally to disarm; nor am I one of those who accept the opposite fallacy of believing that the way to get peace is to prepare for war. Both
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are fallacies. Of course, we shall retain a reasonable defence, and I am in favour of pooling the defences of Western European countries in order to lighten the collective burden and make it possible to improve our economic and social progress. But I am not in favour of this military alliance with one of the two super-Powers, which will divide the world into two halves and lead to a fatal conflict. That is the policy which I am challenging and the policy which, I regret to say, appears to be enshrined in this Treaty.
I had hoped that it might have been possible for my right hon. Friend, when he replies tonight, to give us some assurances which would indicate that the Atlantic Treaty is not what some of us fear it to be, and that it has not those implications and dangers which some of us fear that it has. I have indicated some of them. No doubt, other hon. Members will indicate others. It may, of course, be said that we are entirely wrong, that our fears and suspicions are unjustified and that none of these dangers will flow from it. If that is the case, there is really a simple course open to the Government. My right hon. Friend when he replies tonight can give us the kind of assurances for which some of us have asked in the Amendments which have been put down on the Order Paper. We have asked, in effect, in those Amendments that the Government when ratifying this Treaty shall make a declaration which would go a very long way to remove the fears and doubts which we have about this Treaty.
If such a declaration could he made, I think we might then say that our fears were not entirely justified. But if it cannot be made, if we cannot have these assurances, if we can have no assurance that this is really a regional agreement within the United Nations, no assurance that we shall not allow the armed forces of other Powers to have bases in this country, no assurance that this will not lead to the competitive rearmament of Germany and the Germans, and the inclusion of Franco Spain and all the rest, then we must be led to the conclusion that what the right hon. Member for Woodford claimed this afternoon was right.
This North Atlantic Treaty is merely the concrete expression of what the right hon. Member for Woodford uttered in

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his speech at Fulton three years ago. In other words, what we are being asked to vote for is Fultonism; not, I think, as the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) has said Fultonism and water, but Fultonism unadulterated. If that is the case, I personally cannot go into the Lobby tonight with the right hon. Member for Woodford in order to help him celebrate his Roman triumph. We shall know, if these assurances cannot be given, that this Treaty is no more than an old-fashioned military alliance which can only lead to the division of the world into two power blocs and competitive arming. I do not believe that course is really necessary.
I believe that there is something else which the Government should and could do even at this late hour. We have within the next nine days the Foreign Ministers of the four great Powers coming together again. I believe that the British Foreign Minister has the opportunity at this critical moment in history to give a lead to an independent British foreign policy which can really save humanity from the disaster that is threatening. He could give a lead for a constructive and peaceful settlement of the problems which face us at the present time. He could go into that conference with a determination that it would lead not to a temporary patching up of differences but to a final settlement of the problems which are confronting the great Powers at the present time. He has that opportunity; but if he goes into that Conference with the American atom bomb monopoly in one hand and the revolver of the Atlantic Pact in the other, does he think that he will achieve a settlement which will be a basis for the kind of peace he really wants to see in the world? I do not believe that he will. All that he will get out of that is a five or ten years' breathing space, while the nations on either side prepare for an even more fatal conflict than we now envisage. That is what he will get out of it.
No doubt this military alliance—this show of force—will have its immediate effect, but what effect will it have as soon as the American atomic bomb monopoly has disappeared? Although we have driven the Russians back by force today, the time will come when all that we are seeking to achieve at this moment will be overthrown by the size of the force
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that we have built up against us. That is what will happen if we enter into this conference with force in our hands and relying on force in order to achieve a settlement. The whole situation could be altered if my right hon. Friend would announce tonight that the British Government had decided to postpone ratification of the Treaty until after the outcome of the Foreign Ministers' Conference and we had been given an opportunity to see whether or not he could get this lasting settlement which we desire. If he does that, instead of the outcome of that conference being a 10 years' postponement of Armageddon, it will be that peace of 200 years on which the Foreign Secretary has set his heart.
5.35 p.m.
Brigadier Head: I do not think that I shall be expected in any quarter of the House to echo the sentiments which have just been expressed. The hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) at least cannot be accused by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) of being in any way a penitent. I must admit that I am something of a Fultonian, and it does not fill me with grief that the hon. Gentleman considers that the Atlantic Pact springs from and resembles the sentiments expressed in the Fulton speech. I should like to follow the hon. Gentleman on one or two points which he made in his speech. I would suggest to him that had he made any study of our existing ill-developed defences he would not regard the word "development" in the Treaty as one indicating increased expenditure.
With regard to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the Foreign Secretaries should meet together once again in order to find a settlement, I think that the hon. Gentleman never referred once throughout his speech to the constant, repeated and determined obstruction and negatives which have been given by Soviet Russia throughout all these conferences. These have stultified every attempt by the Western Powers to reach a settlement. That is a precedent which makes it hard to believe that, at this stage, a further effort will achieve something which the entire good will of the Western World has been attempting to achieve since 1945.
Mr. Warbey: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman really think that the

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calling-off of the Berlin blockade and counter blockade means nothing at all? Does he think that it is mere words and a gesture and not an action indicating a considerable change of attitude on the part of the Soviet Union?
Brigadier Head: I think that the hon. Gentleman may think that on these matters I have a dirty mind, but I am afraid that my opinion of the lifting of the Berlin blockade is this: That the methods of coercion having failed to bring about a Germany of the kind the Soviet wanted, now a different method should be employed. I do not think that the lifting of the Berlin blockade is a gesture purely dictated by a desire to improve Soviet and American British relations.
Mr. Gallacher: May I draw the attention of the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the fact that the Soviet Union proposes that there should be inspection of atomic material and simultaneous destruction of atomic weapons? That is the greatest proposal that was ever made, and it was turned down flat by Britain and America.
Brigadier Head: If the hon. Gentleman really believes that gesture was a sincere one, and that they would have allowed inspection by the Western Powers of atomic materials, then I must assume that he reads no publications except the "Daily Worker." I do not believe that was a sincere offer and a realistic attempt to try to outlaw atomic weapons.
May I turn from the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the two speeches which opened the Debate. I think that it is hard for one on the back benches to add very much to the sentiments and the general statements which were made by the Foreign Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford. One thing at least I can do, which it was impossible for either of them to do, and that is to express the great debt that the House and the country owe to them both in the work which they have done in bringing about the Atlantic Treaty. It seems to me that in the life of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford, which has been very full of achievement, this pact, which directly results from the Fulton speech, will be accounted by posterity to have been one of his greatest achievements for the Western world.
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The trouble with democracies in peace-time has been a predilection for pacts unsupported by strength. In some ways I wish that I shared the fear of the hon. Member for Luton that we were now about to build up overwhelming and considerable forces. I am afraid that my opinion which is based on history, is very much the reverse. My fear is that we shall once again relapse into the popular democratic peace-time sport of building up a fine imposing looking pack of committees, pieces of paper, generals and planners, but that we shall fail to get into our shirtsleeves and do the necessary work to achieve adequate strength as a deterrent to aggression. That is the difficult task which lies ahead, and when the Foreign Secretary came into the House to announce the signing of the Atlantic Pact I, for one, was sorry that in describing this event, he stated that in his opinion we had now put the roof on the structure which would bring security to Europe.
I cannot believe that the Foreign Secretary, in affirming that the roof was put on, had been paying sufficient attention to the state of the defences of the Western Powers, and especially our own. If the Foreign Secretary would like me to continue in the housing analogy which he chose, I would say that the situation today is that the Western Powers have agreed to build a house together; they have got as far as getting out the blueprints of how they propose to build it, and perhaps we can say that the foundations are laid; but not a brick has been built in the wall, and they must now get into their shirt-sleeves and build that house gradually, laboriously, and at times with great difficulty. That, as I see it, is the problem which lies before the Western Powers and that is the stage we have now reached.
The fear which I have, which is so different from that of the hon. Member for Luton, is that we shall fall back on that bad habit of trusting to outward trappings in these matters, rather than relying on the creation of adequate strength to deter a would be aggressor. That is the way in which the democratic countries have behaved before two previous world wars. There is in the insect world a little beetle which crawls most boldly about the grass and bushes, and if a potential foe or aggressor should appear, it makes no attempt whatever

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to seek safety, either in flight or concealment, but goes happily on chewing his leaf or basking in the sun. Now the dashing and forward policy of that little beetle is based on the fact that he wears on his body some very bold black and yellow stripes which closely resemble those of the wasp; and because of that resemblance and that wasp's very formidable and notorious armament it enjoys immunity in the insect world. But that policy of bogus but apparent strength, translated into the human sphere would be disastrous and I fear that if the Foreign Secretary were to go beetling round the chancelleries of Europe dressed only in the Atlantic Pact, it would end in disaster.
That is my fear. My hope is that we shall take adequate steps to make of this pact a reality and a deterrent against aggression—a deterrent which I do not believe anybody who has studied the history of the democracies can ever interpret as being aggressive in character. The problem, is: How will this be done? Many hon. Members will say: "Already we have voted vast quantities of men and money for defence; for heaven's sake what more do you require?" I think that is justified for hon. Members understandably, grudge this vast expenditure of men and money. I do not ask for additional expenditure, but we must realise that apart from the atomic bomb, there is in Western Europe today a complete power vacuum; there is practically nothing in the way of a Western European defence organisation or defence force which could at present give any security or safety to Western Europe.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman mean to say that we are spending £762 million this year on nothing?
Brigadier Head: I am not saying that we have no forces whatever, but I am saying that within Europe itself there is virtually a power vacuum. Now, there may be hon. Members who would like, and who would think it best, to retain that state of affairs. I do not believe that that is the way to get peace. When I advocate increased efficiency in rearmament, some hon. Gentlemen will probably call me a warmonger. To those hon. Members I should say that there are two theories about war. One is reflected by the hon. Member for Luton
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and others. I, on the other hand, believe in strength as a deterrent against aggression. To those who believe otherwise and call me a warmonger—assuming the word "warmonger" means one whose words, theories and policies are most likely to lead to war—I would say that history and experience before the last two wars suggest that not I but the hon. Member for Luton and those like him are the warmongers. I suggest that they should think very carefully on that and study the past to see whether they are not, probably sincerely, heading for another disaster through weakness, in the same way that it has been done twice before.
Mrs. Leah Manning: We are very interested in what the hon. and gallant Gentleman is saying. Can he explain how it was that the best prepared army in the world, the German Army, met with such disaster?
Brigadier Head: What happened was that the best-prepared army in the world overwhelmed Poland, then left a period of a year in which we might have prepared and learned some lessons, and then proceeded to overwhelm France. It did it twice, with a long warning period in between. That, it seems to me, is a pretty remarkable achievement. Having done that, it then went right into Russia, where it was finally broken. For the hon. Lady to cite the defeat of Germany as an indication that we were prepared is, I think, very far-fetched.
The fear I have, which I have already expressed, is that we shall not become adequately strong. I fear lest we may spend our time talking, paying lip-service to the pact and setting up committees, but not doing the difficult and arduous work which will make of this pact a reality. If that happens it will be, in the long run, a disaster, and I shall try briefly to tell the House why. First, if we and Europe do not make wholehearted efforts to work our passage and erect a realistic defensive structure, then I believe that America will say: "They do not mean business. They are not really going to work their passage and put their backs into it. We cannot carry the whole thing on our shoulders. If war breaks out we must write off Europe; we must fight war, if war comes, from air bases outside Europe." The hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) looks quite cheerful.
Mr. Zilliacus: Bases where?
Brigadier Head: I shall tell the hon. Member where, if he wants me to go on for so long. Iceland is one place; the hon. Gentleman may have heard of the Azores, which is another; the Middle East is another. I shall not go on with my strategic geography but I have perhaps given the hon. Member at least enough material to send off a telegram.
I am saying that that situation strikes me as a possibility if we do not make a realistic attempt. If that happens, then I sincerely believe—and I suggest to those who wish well to the democratic world that there is something in this—that if Western Europe is overrun and subjected to a long occupation by Soviet Russia, not only will it lead to a very long and disastrous war, but any re-conquest of Western Europe will leave us with such a wreck in Western Europe as can never be put together again. I believe that even at the conclusion of that kind of victorious war, the object for which we were fighting, Western civilisation, would be dead and that military victory would bring ideological defeat.
The third reason why I believe this would be dangerous is because until we can get some kind of physical defence for Western Europe, we shall never get that stability, confidence and political continuity for which we are striving. What feeds the cold war is fear. I ask Members who have violent political views to consider how they would feel if they were living in the Eastern part of Western Europe and had nothing between them and Soviet Russia. If they got up and said the Communists were wicked people their names would be on the book and in the event of war, there would be nothing to defend their country from occupation. All these nations are living in a state of apprehension and fear. I believe that not only would adequate defences act as a deterrent to aggression, but also as a stabilising influence and a counter to the existing cold war which would be far more effective than anything we can do by propaganda and the B.B.C.
One of the problems in making this pact a reality lies in overcoming the inertia which always exists in translating policies and pacts into reality and physical action. I do not mean starting a war, but taking the necessary steps to create adequate defences. The point I
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put to the House, which I believe to be of some importance in the present situation, is that in this respect this country is placed in a position of leadership and example. As I have said before, the wholeheartedness of American cooperation and contribution to Western European defence will be much affected by the extent of the contributions made by Western Europe from her own resources. If Western Europe does not make that contribution, I do not believe she will get that full co-operation from America. Western Europe, in her turn, will be watching this country. Western Europe is not going to exert herself, with all the immense difficulties of economic recovery which face her, if this country is not taking this pact seriously, or is not preparing herself for assistance in the event of Western Europe being over-run.
I am not suggesting for one moment that we should produce a vast army, but I am suggesting that we could produce a small, effective and up-to-date army and a well-prepared air striking force. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is quite sure that when Western Europe looks at us she sees the kind of thing which will help her and convince her of our bona fides. Western Europe is primarily interested in the early phase of a war when she may be overrun, and therefore her keynote will be operational preparedness.
I ask therefore whether our present defence policy is in line with the commitments which our foreign policy has given us under the Atlantic Pact. I would say that our defence policy at the moment is to create a long-term force, a force which might be of considerable use at the later stages of a war whereas the requirement is for one which is operationally well prepared. What we want is, by our example, to provide the initial impetus in creating a European defence structure, and our policy should be aimed at getting our forces at a high state of readiness. I sincerely hope that if the Foreign Secretary is not satisfied in that respect—and I cannot as a student of this matter see that he can be—he will go into it and discuss it, to see that our present established foreign policy is matched by our defence policy.
I have confined my remarks purposely to the question of the defence of Western Europe, but it must be obvious that the

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Atlantic Pact cannot and will not be confined to that area. I do not want to discuss any other parts of the world in this Debate because it would make my remarks too long and too diffuse, but before I sit down I should like briefly to refer to one area which, I believe, forms part and parcel of Western defence, and that is the Mediterranean.
It seems ungracious, after this imaginative gesture on the part of America, to suggest an extension of this pact further beyond the continent of America, but I feel convinced that the Mediterranean, especially the Eastern Mediterranean, forms an intimate part of the defence of Western Europe. If our position in the Eastern Mediterranean deteriorates or is neglected, the whole of the most elaborate and efficient defence structure in Western Europe will be stultified and will expose itself to being ripped and torn up from Mediterranean bases. The Americans must find it very hard to believe that as far as defence is concerned, modern strategy, aircraft and weapons make the Middle West and the Middle East part of the same defensive system.
There are obviously hard and difficult times coming to this country and to Western Europe. I am convinced that in the next few years, whatever party is in power, they will be subjected to an ever-increasing clamour for a reduction in defence expenditure and an all-round reduction in such provisions as are required by this pact. If those in authority resist that clamour, hold fast and make a reality of this pact, they will gain little popularity and no votes. I can only hope that whoever is in power will hold fast and although he will gain little or no recognition, popularity or votes he will nevertheless be helping to build up strength which as a deterrent to aggression and a force for peace, may well earn him the unspoken gratitude of future generations.
5.59 p.m.
Mr. Thomas Reid: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) called the speech of the Foreign Secretary sombre. I think it was a firm speech by a man who is now able to speak confidently, knowing the subject and all the facts. I do not think that the Foreign Secretary could have been so confident two or three
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years ago, but owing to the policy he has been mainly instrumental in bringing forward he can afford to be much more confident today.
The hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) suggested that the Atlantic Pact is provocative and that Russia thinks it is provocative. He suggested that it was not a good business and should be postponed, and he denied that Russia has an aggressive policy. Since I came into this House I have supported the Foreign Secretary in all these quarrels with the Communists, because from the word "go" I believed that Communist imperialism was aggressive. I studied this subject, and amongst other things I read a book called "The Problems of Leninism." That book is not a bit of propaganda from "Pravda" or fictitious falsehoods put out on the Russian wireless; it is a Communist text book of which 100 million copies or so have been sold, and it is for the edification and training of Soviet youth. If that book, published by the hundred thousand, asserts that Communist imperialism or Politbureau imperialism is aggressive, then we must assume it is so. I would like to reproduce one salient passage from that book, where it says:
"The aim is the consolidation of the dictatorship of the proletariat in one country as a point of support for the overthrow of imperialism in all countries … the revolution extends beyond the borders of one country and the epoch of world revolution has begun."
Is that fiction? Is it peaceful policy or aggression?
Mr. Zilliacus: What is the date?
Mr. Reid: I am ready for my hon. Friend. The copy from which I am quoting was published in 1945.
Mr. Zilliacus: What year was that said? It was 1918, if my hon. Friend wants to know.
Mr. Reid: It may be 1918, but my hon. Friend cannot get away with that. It may have been first published in 1918, but it has been reproduced several times, and I am quoting from an edition published as lately as 1945. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton asserts that the Russians acted as they did in Germany because they were afraid that the unity of Germany would be broken. If anyone tried to break the unity of Germany it was the Russians themselves, because from the very start—
Mr. Warbey: My hon. Friend keeps on misquoting what I said. What I said was that the Russians were afraid that Germany would remain divided permanently into two halves.
Mr. Reid: In other words, what my hon. Friend means is that the Russians, who broke up Germany, feared that this breaking of Germany into two halves, which under the Potsdam Agreement was meant to be administered as one country economically, at least by the Four Powers, would become permanent. I quite agree with my hon. Friend that the Russians do not like the partition of Germany. What they want is Germany to be united as a whole and to become a puppet of the Soviet Union. The facts prove it. As regards Norway, it is a small country inhabited by one of the finest races in the world. Though it has a small population it has given to civilisation out of all proportion to its small population. The Norwegians are taking a great risk in following the leadership of their Prime Minister, who was imprisoned by the Nazis, but being statesmen they realise the far greater risk which would follow standing out and remaining neutral. The hon. Member for Luton says that there is no danger from Russian aggression in spite of the policy which they have published. I wonder whether he has ever been across to the other side.
Mr. Warbey: To what? My hon. Friend must make himself clear.
Mr. Reid: "The other side" means America. If my hon. Friend goes over there and along the south border of Canada, he will find not a single gun or pill box on a 3,000 miles frontier. Yet on one side are the American people, 140 million strong, and on the other side the beautiful country—well worth looting—of Canada, with a population of 12 million. The 140 million have atomic bombs, and yet every Canadian sleeps peacefully in his bed every night as we do here. If instead of the United States along the Canadian border, there was the Soviet Union, with the bomb and a Communist policy of aggression, would the Canadians sleep peacefully in their beds? It makes all the difference what is in the minds of men. War starts in the minds of men, and here is a people teaching their children aggression and liquidating
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country after country. Surely that is different from the United States.
Mr. Zilliacus: Suppose the Canadians were Communists, would they sleep peacefully in their beds with the United States as their neighbour?
Mr. Reid: If the Canadians were Communists, although they are smaller in population, the Americans would not sleep peacefully in their beds. I am going into this, because from the start in our party I have supported the policy of the Foreign Secretary. A certain number of people who have been duped by Communist propaganda—and I am sorry to say some of them in my own party—have at least been very friendly towards the Communist aggression that is obvious in Europe. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton says the Russians are not aggressive. Will he answer a few questions on that point? Why did they seize East Poland? They may have had an excuse for that, because it was not populated entirely by Polish people, but why did they seize the three Baltic States?
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Because we helped them.
Mr. Reid: Even if we condoned it, they seized it. They are the culprits; we are not. Why did they seize the northern part of Poland and annex it? Why did they seize Manchuria and places like Port Arthur? Why did they give Japanese arms to the Chinese Communists? Are they aggressive? They are only carrying out the policy laid down in "The Problems of Leninism," and if anyone thinks otherwise, he must be blind.
One of their methods is by a fifth column in every country, and it is an excellent plan. I will give them full marks for studying revolution; they are first class at it. The Foreign Secretary is responsible for stopping the onward march of Communist imperialism in Europe and Greece. We kept our troops there, in spite of all the attempts made to get them out and let the Communists in. Because we stuck to our guns, our troops are still there. Then my right hon. Friend got American aid for Greece, and Communist imperialism and Marxism were stopped. If Greece had fallen, then Turkey would have gone the

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same way, and the Dardanelles would have been closed to us. Even Italy might have become Communist, and why some hon. Members on this side of the House support Russia through all these things passes my comprehension. Those who opposed the Foreign Secretary in our party are now scattered, and they do not represent the nation or the Labour Party.
Once in a Debate in this House I said that I regarded the Politbureau of Russia as probably the most incompetent in the world. They have proved it. Their object was to bludgeon their way through Europe and elsewhere, liquidating human nature itself, but their policy has resulted in something entirely opposite to what they hoped to get from it. They have done excellently in forcing the democratic countries of Europe to come together to defend themselves, their way of life and their democracy. They have forced these countries to adopt what would have stopped the First and Second World Wars—regional collective security. Collective security is on a firmer basis now than it ever was before. That was caused by Communist imperialism, and from it we have also got Western Union, O.E.E.C., the Brussels Pact and now the Atlantic Pact. I do not think our troubles are over; far from it. This Communist imperialism must go on, or it must die. It is a system based on force and not on morals and reason. It is an aggressive force, which must go on or perish, and in my opinion it will go on.
Mr. Warbey: Does my hon. Friend realise that the fundamental difference between Communism and Fascism is that whereas the Nazi system was based on aggression, the Communist system is not, and that is where the whole basis of his argument is completely false.
Mr. Reid: The whole basis of my argument is completely right. This Communist system is a revolt against morality and against reason. It is a foul irreligion, and it can only hope to go on by using force and by liquidating opponents. The countries of the world are alarmed, and America and ourselves are leading the way in taking steps to remedy this position. Those who have studied Marxism know that one of its plans is to produce revolution by increasing misery. The Communists have tried to carry out that plan by increasing the misery of Europe everywhere by turmoil
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and by fifth column activity, ever since the war was over.
America has stepped in, with great generosity, and instead of increasing misery, has set about increasing prosperity, with very great success up to this moment. The diplomatic and military resistance of the Western Powers has brought Russia to a standstill. That and the brilliant feats of our airmen over Berlin have raised the siege of Berlin. Nevertheless, there has been no change of heart in Communist imperialism. It seems that they realise that they have been beaten, but what they will do next remains to be seen. The third world war has probably been averted by the measures which have been taken, and especially by the North Atlantic Pact.
The hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head) informed us that we are beginning to build a house but it is not complete. I am inclined to agree with him. It is a difficult question. We are trying to build a formidable structure and we have only just begun it. The people concerned will have to reckon with the absolute sovereignty to which the nations of Europe still cling by the force of old habit. They will have to overcome that either by federation, which in my opinion would be premature at the present time, or by this Council of Europe which has just been set up, with its Assembly.
We have to tackle all the problems. The whole sphere of foreign affairs has been radically altered. In future, what we call foreign affairs will become more and more international affairs. It will need men with enormous constructive ability to adapt themselves to new conditions and to think of themselves as Europeans rather than as nationals of particular countries. The hon. Member for Luton has assured us that this Council of Europe and all the other institutions which are set up will be dominated by the United States of America. The United States will, of course, be the most powerful people there economically and militarily, but I have seen no sign of American domination. In fact, America does not want to dominate. What she wants is complete co-operation and unity among all the parties concerned.
There are many problems to be overcome. One of them is the co-ordination of military forces. That will be a tre-

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mendous subject. Are there to be national units, to be called together in an emergency, or is there to be an international force? How can we be certain that if an emergency occurs, all the Powers and units concerned will march? We all know what has happened before, particularly when Abyssinia was invaded by Mussolini. The people of Europe held back, at the time when a few ships would have stopped him. Mussolini got away with it, when a few ships would have stopped him getting through the Mediterranean. How can we ensure that that will not happen again?
There are places where fifth columns are strong. Will those Communists undermine the Council of Europe by gaining control of majorities in their own countries? That is a formidable problem. Again, who will join the scheme? A number of nations have joined. How many more will join? Are the Communist States to be invited in? They may suggest that they should come in, either because they have mended their ways or because they want to bore from within. That is another formidable problem. I do not pretend to know how to solve any of these problems. I believe that it is best to have first-class men from all the countries concerned and to leave the solution to them. The problems cannot be tackled by people outside. That has to be done by discussion and persuasion over a long period. I hope sincerely that no commonplace or second-class Ministers, diplomats or civil servants will be allowed to handle these enormously difficult problems.
I was very much impressed by the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton. I agree with what he said about the Middle East. Peace is indivisible and war is indivisible, and never more than now, when there is an attack by Communist imperialism upon the liberty and property of mankind. So far as I can see, there is a vacuum in the Middle East. What is there to defend the Middle East? The Foreign Secretary has told us that the pact shields Greece and Turkey. What is the use of that? Who will defend Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other countries around Palestine, such as Transjordan? Let us consider Transjordan. We have a treaty of mutual defence with Transjordan. U.N.O., in its wisdom, has given four-fifths of Palestine
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to the Jews. There is one-fifth left and it is proposed to hand that fraction over to Transjordan. If it is added to the existing territory of Transjordan, will that new territory be covered by the Anglo-Transjordan Treaty? Are our boys to be sent out to defend the peace of that part of the world, if it or Jerusalem should be attacked by the Jews? Are we alone to be dragged into that problem?
Again, we have treaties of mutual defence with practically all the Arab States. Are we to defend them, if those Arab States, and Iran, are attacked by Communist imperialism? Are we, because we have treaties with some of them, bound to go to their rescue? Is this unfortunate little country, weighed down by taxation, to indulge in campaigns of that size? Will U.N.O. do anything? No, because the veto stops anything from being done. Is there not, therefore, a need for something like a Mediterranean Pact? Is the defence of those countries to be left to poor John Bull? I do not know who is to reply this evening and whether that Minister can answer these conundrums. They arc pressing. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton that the defence of the West and of the Middle East are one and the same problem. In that part of the world, Israel claims to be remaining neutral. That remains to be seen. She occupies a key position on the coast, with the vital port of Haifa in her charge. How are we to decide whether she is eventually coming in with us, or with the other side?
Let us go across to India and Pakistan. They have the enemy on their borders. They have been worrying about Kashmir. I hope they will settle the Kashmir question peacefully. As a friend of both States, I can assure them that there are far more serious things lurking in the dark than the question of which gets Kashmir. The enemy is at hand. India has a strong Communist Party. I again wonder what pact or arrangement has been made with this country to defend the vital countries and the vital places which those Governments control. What about the Khyber Pass? It could easily be defended, but who will do so? What arrangements have we with India and Pakistan and Burma and Ceylon to defend those territories? War is indivisible, never more so than today, and the Atlantic Pact covers

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only a small part of the world. On 10th July, 1947, I said in this House:
"The statesmanship of the Labour Government in the management of this Indian problem has been superb."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th July, 1947; Vol. 439, c. 2508.]
There were sardonic smiles on some sides of the House, but was I not right? We left India alone, gave her a free hand, and today she is coming into the Commonwealth and acknowledging the common symbol of the Crown. It was wise statesmanship, and everyone knows it. If the Prime Minister of Great Britain had never done anything else except to bring about this enormous achievement, his name would go down to history.
What is being done to prevent the spread of Communism in China? I do not know whether the Communism of China is linked with the Russian Politbureau or not, but I am glad that the Government refused the other day to interfere with the civil war in China and to back up one side or the other at the present moment. We have to wait and see how things develop. I am glad, too, that the Government have taken steps to defend Hong Kong.
We took over the post-war shambles in 1945 and, in my opinion and in the opinion of Americans who know what is going on, the people of this country, with a Labour Government at their head, have excited the admiration of the world over the handling of their internal affairs and attempts at economic recovery. I suggest that the Foreign Secretary likewise has done wonders in pulling this country through a period when we were often on the verge of war, and getting us into a position of strength, which we have never known before, owing to the creation of the Atlantic Pact and the other international agencies which he has taken a major part in developing. I am sorry that the Foreign Secretary is not in his place because I say, as I have said before, that he has done a great job. It must be a proud day in his life. Perhaps he has done a bigger work than even he can envisage today.
The foundations for world peace have been laid, but only the foundations. The Foreign Secretary, in his practical wisdom, told the House some months ago that he did not want to begin by putting on the roof before the foundations were laid. He has helped to lay those founda-
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tions, and I hope that a good building will be erected on them. I venture to hope today that, in spite of the enormous difficulties ahead to which I have referred, the world can hope in future for free and democratic peoples living in peace and prosperity, ruled not by dictators, not by tyrants, but by the people themselves by discussion, persuasion and consent, which is democracy.
6.23 p.m.
Mr. Butcher: The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid), on the Motion to approve the Atlantic Pact, took us for a remarkable tour of the world, leaving us stranded at Hong Kong. I make no complaint at his doing so because, as he has said, both war and peace are indivisible. Listening to his exchanges with the hon. Members for Luton (Mr. Warbey) and Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus), I am inclined to doubt whether the adjective "indivisible" could be applied to the party of the hon. Members. However, doubtless they will be able to resolve their own difficulties within their party.
It is interesting that the day on which this House is approving the Atlantic Treaty should also be the first day in which proper and adequate communications have been restored with Berlin. There have been some suggestions as to why the Berlin blockade has been lifted. As the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head) said, the answer is that the Russians found that the continuance of the blockade was not working to their advantage. They found that their cold-blooded and deliberate effort to impose their policy on Europe through a calculated attempt to starve two and a half million people had been defeated by the courage and the ingenuity of the American and British Air Forces and—being realists—on realising that fact, they called it off.
I hope that in the Conference of Foreign Ministers which will be held shortly it will be possible to come to some agreement with the Russians. I rather deprecated the anti-Russian approach of the hon. Member for Swindon. My own feeling in these matters is that nations work very much in terms of what will advantage them at the present time and for the days that lie ahead. Therefore I believe that, just as in circumstances of the war it was possible to

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work with Russia, such a time may quite well come again, but only if we go into any conference on a basis of showing quite clearly that we do not intend to submit to the delays, the frustrations, the negative approach from which we have suffered for so long. I hope that before the right hon. Gentleman—I agree with the Foreign Secretary so much that I almost called him "my right hon. Friend"—leaves this country, he will indicate the day on which he intends to return and the minimum achievements that he will bring back with him.
Co-operation with Russia at the moment is really not the most important thing to the peace of the world. The most important thing at the moment is the consolidation of the Powers who are signatories to the Atlantic Treaty on all levels. Here I refer again to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton, who spoke of the establishment of strategic headquarters. Certainly that is important, but perhaps equally important is a greater urgency in economic cooperation. Of course we must accustom the people of the nations who are signatories to this Treaty to the idea of living together. There must be a greater and more willing interchange of labour and capital, and the destruction of all the barriers which separate nation from nation.
Having said that I am willing to work with the Russians, I turn again and say that I am equally willing to work with Spain. In our dealings with Spain I believe we have committed much the same kind of mistake as the Russians over their blockade of Berlin. We thought that we might be able to achieve the aims in our minds by the withdrawal of our Ambassador, and that this might be followed by the fall or the weakening of the Franco Government. If that had happened, it would have been probably what is known as "a good thing." The fact is that the Franco Government is still as firmly established as it was, and we ought to recognise that the methods we have pursued has not produced the results for which we hoped. Therefore we ought to be prepared to reverse our policy. There is a place for co-operation between all the peoples of this world, and it is as easy to co-operate with Spaniards as with Russians. The sole principle we should have in our mind in dealing with
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a nation is, "Are we able to secure a good bargain with those people?" and by a good bargain I mean an accommodation mutually advantageous and mutually honourable.
Returning to the subject of the Atlantic Treaty, I am bound to address one or two questions to the Government. I notice that Italy is within the Treaty as one of the original signatory nations. That may be right and proper. We must, however, recognise that Italy is a liability to all the other signatories at the present time. She is restricted from re-arming and is in no economic position to make a contribution in terms of finance. If Italy is included as an original signatory to the Treaty, what is to be the eventual position of Germany? The boundaries of Germany as far as the Elbe are guaranteed under this Treaty. Yet the Germans themselves are making no contribution to the Treaty from which they will derive benefits as great as those derived by anybody else. After all, they are in the front line and we are guaranteeing them.
On the one hand, we allow Italy to come in as an early signatory and give her the benefit of a guarantee although she can make no contribution, while, on the other hand, Germany is excluded and has certain advantages in being excluded. None of the taxation of her people will go to the mutual aid of Western Europe and all her industrial production will be available either for export or for the re-equipping of her country. The very fact that Germany is excluded and kept in the position of an inferior compared with Italy, who was equally an enemy and a belligerent, causes a feeling of inferiority among the German people.
Mr. Zilliacus: Is it the purpose of the hon. Gentleman's argument to say that Germany should be included and be re-armed in order to join the Western Union alliance?
Mr. Butcher: I have not got as far as saying that; I have got as far as saying that Germany should make some contribution towards the Atlantic Treaty. That is as far as we can go at the moment.
Mrs. Manning: United Germany or just Western Germany?
Mr. Butcher: There should be a united Germany and that should be the ambition of the Foreign Ministers. When the Foreign Secretary goes to Paris, he should

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have as one of his minimum demands on which he is prepared to insist, that the united Germany shall have a constitution as democratic as that agreed at Bonn, and there should be no diminution from that. I appreciate the point of the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) and I am glad she raised it. What is the position now? Germany is split right through the middle with appalling loss and misery to the people on both sides of the border. The Germans have seen things working on the scale of 12 inches to the foot. Which is the best system under which to live—the system of the signatories to the Atlantic Pact or the system of the Soviet Union? Why is it that such large numbers have crossed the borders into our areas? Can anyone point to a large area in Germany from which the inhabitants have fled because they were frightened of British control and felt they would be more secure in the Soviet zone? There are large townships in Soviet-occupied Germany which the people have left furtively, by night, in order to cross into the Western zones. Experience has decided them.
Let us face the fact that, sooner or later, Germany must be reunited as a full and proper partner inside the union of Western democracies. We ought to take steps towards that now. I urge that Germany should now be given sufficient trained men with such suitable equipment as may be necessary so that they may put down—I notice that the hon. Member for Gateshead is laughing; I repeat that I shall go so far as to say that Germany should be permitted sufficient trained men with the necessary hand arms to enable them to destroy Communist-inspired attempts at civil insurrection without bringing in foreign troops to do it.
Mr. Zilliacus: I permitted myself to smile when I thought of the impression which would be made in Paris by the proposal that the Nazis in Germany should re-arm to beat up the workers again.
Mr. Butcher: I have already said that my approach to these foreign affairs is solely practical. So far as I am concerned, such influence as I have is not so great in Paris as the influence of the hon. Member for Gateshead in the districts nearer Moscow. I speak as I
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feel. In this House the hon. Gentleman and I enjoy the liberty of saying what we think, a liberty which he and I both enjoy when we visit America.
Mr. Zilliacus: I cannot get there.
Mr. Butcher: I am sorry about that but I suggest the reason is that the Americans have heard him speak over here. I believe he could get through on those terms—a pledge of silence, or even of short speeches. However, I sincerely believe that steps must be taken to restore Germany to the family of Western Europe and that the time is now ripe for it. I approve the steps which have been taken by the Foreign Secretary over a long period of time despite the hostility of people who sit behind him, such as the hon. Member for Gateshead and the hon. Member for Luton. Led by the Foreign Secretary, whose views are not so dissimilar from those of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) in these matters, we can now move forward towards the building of a Western Europe which will give a better and happier life to the ordinary men and women of the world.
6.38 p.m.
Mr. Rhys Davies: One of the speakers who always intrigues me is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) the Leader of the Opposition. He rather boasted today that his Fulton speech was a prophecy and that that prophecy had now become true in the Atlantic Pact. I should have thought that he would have gone a little further back. I remember his saying once that it was an excellent thing that Hitler and Mussolini had emerged in Europe in order to throw a cordon sanitaire against Communism right across the Continent. He is now apparently back just where he was on that occasion.
It is very difficult for a peace-lover like me to enter into a Debate of this kind because I disagree in part with both sides in this contest of words. I wish I could feel that a pact like this could ensure peace as is claimed for it. I shall congratulate my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary if this pact ultimately brings peace to Europe. I would say, in passing, that he has, by his patience over the blockade of Berlin and what has happened there recently, brought joy to millions of people

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in this country and Germany who felt that something dreadful might happen if the Allies were to force their way through the blockade. It is pretty obvious to the un- initiated that the pact has brought about a change of heart among the Russian statesmen. I said, "to the uninitiated"; that is to say, the Russians have lifted the blockade of Berlin in part because they saw the Western Powers coming together in this fashion. However, I regard this pact as being in the nature of a treaty of retaliation. It is because the Soviets and their satellites gathered together a bloc among themselves in the East that the statesmen of the West, apparently, felt that there must be retaliation by forming another bloc like the Atlantic Pact.
Mr. Zilliacus: The difference surely is that the bilateral treaties concluded by the Soviet Union with their neighbours apply only in the case of an attack by Germany?
Mr. Rhys Davies: That is the trouble all along the line. In the 28 years I have been in this House every Government has been afraid of an attack from some other Government; they all base their defences upon a fear of the other fellow. In passing, I hate dictatorship with all my soul. I have preached against it many times, and the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) will forgive my telling him that I have never believed that a dictatorship of the proletariat is possible anywhere. To me, every dictatorship is the tyranny of the cunning over the simple, in whatever country it may exist.
Let us see whether the pact will bring us peace. It is clear to everybody that negotiation, compromise and reason have failed to bring peace between the Allies who fought the Germans. It is indeed a sad phase of our history that only the other day, as it were, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was drinking champagne with Stalin. I doubt if he would drink vinegar with him today. But I do not believe that that change is indicative of the minds of the peoples of the countries those men represent. I travel about these islands probably as much as anybody else, and one thing of which I am certain is that our people would require to be whipped up by an enormous amount of propaganda of hatred before they would
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support a war by any Government just now. They are tired of war, and it would take a great deal to rouse them to engage in a war, not only against Russia but against any other power.
Mr. Harold Davies: That is true of America as well.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I cannot speak of America, although I have been there several times; but what I cannot understand about some of my colleagues who criticise America is this. They seem somehow or other to condone and even rejoice in Russian imperialism but they criticise at every turn both British and American imperialism. It is imperialism itself that offends me, and not the fact that it is of Russian, British or American origin. I deny the right of any nation to assume that it can govern other people better than those people can govern themselves. That applies to Russia, and to Britain and America too. I am sometimes a little offended, therefore, at some of the criticisms levelled by some of our people against American imperialism.
I have lived in Manchester for a long time. I have seen American troops walking the streets of that city in their spare time from their station outside Warrington. I do not like foreign troops on the soil of my country, but some of my colleagues, strangely enough—I hope I do not do them an injustice by saying so—detest American troops on British soil, but I am under the impression that they would welcome Russian troops here. I object to both.
Mr. Butcher: But they surely do not resent the presence of Russian troops on Hungarian soil?
Mr. Rhys Davies: I did apologise, of course, by saying that I hoped I was not doing hon. Members an injustice; but that is how they impress me. They give the impression that the only imperialism that is wrong is British and American. I object, as I stated, to all forms of imperialism, whatever their source. I have been at conferences of my party and I have had brushes with the hon. Member for Gateshead, as he knows. I cannot understand the attitude adopted by some people that British foreign policy towards Russia is always wrong and that the foreign policy of Russia towards us is always right.
Mr. Zilliacus: The hon. Member is quite wrong if he contends that that is my position.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I have never heard the hon. Gentleman criticising Russian foreign policy, but I have often heard him denouncing our own foreign policy. The difference between the two of us is this: I believe that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is sometimes right and that he is sometimes wrong; I believe the same thing about Vyshinsky and Molotov, too. I cannot believe that human nature has so deviated from its ancient course as to make a diplomat a perfect gentleman merely because he calls himself a Communist.
Mr. Zilliacus: I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman's view of mixed responsibilities, but it so happens that in this House we are responsible for the foreign policy of our own Government and not that of other Governments. That is the difference.
Mr. Rhys Davies: There is a great deal in that. My trouble, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind my saying so—I want to be as tolerant as I can, but I confess that I am a follower of Count Leo Tolstoi—
Mr. S. Silverman: He was a Russian.
Mr. Rhys Davies: Yes, a pacifist at that. My impression is that that great pacifist had more liberty to preach peace under the Tsar than he would get under the present régime in Russia.
There is another thing I want to say about the pact. Hon. Gentlemen must have seen the report of Mr. Acheson's speech on the point as to whether if this country was attacked all the might of America would immediately come to our aid. He was asked a question about that; what would need to be the dimensions of the attack against this country before American aid came into operation. I think we ought to have some answer to that question from our own Government. His reply, in effect, was that if London was bombed a few times and the bombers went back again—apparently, to Russia; that is what they are all saying—America would not come in; that it would have to be a major attack on a large scale before American aid came to our rescue.
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The real reason however why I rose to speak is this. In spite of all the play with words about the Charter of the United Nations, that this pact does not violate article so and so of that Charter, the coming of this pact and what the Russians have done in the East to collect those smaller nations around them—the mere fact that the two sides have done that is dealing a severe blow to the existence of the United Nations organisation itself. What is the use of insulting the English language by using the word "united" when at the same time that very organisation is being wounded by the creation of these Eastern and Western blocs? I take a different line from most people and would say, "A plague on all your houses whether American, British or Russian for dividing the world in two." Surely that is a right line for a pacifist. I say a plague on all who bring miseries on the peoples of the world by preparing for and waging wars.
Some people ask me where do I stand on this issue. It is a very difficult thing to say where one stands on any international issue, because I find in this connection that we are not always called upon to decide between right and wrong; too often the choice is between two wrongs and, apparently, that is what the House of Commons is called upon to do today. I remember the formation of the League of Nations and the great hopes we had of peace then. That has passed into oblivion and now the United Nations organisation is not working very much better. I had hoped that at long last we had reached a state when the great Powers could work together through that new instrument.
This Atlantic Pact will most likely be used as a weapon in the negotiations of peace for Germany and Austria. Incidentally, I have visited Germany and, if a people could learn lessons from the destruction of war, then surely what has happened in Germany ought to condemn war in the eyes of everybody for all time. But I cannot understand the policy of Great Britain and America and France just now; they are still dismantling some of the factories there. I should have thought that that policy ought to have come to an end long ago. Germany must very soon come into the comity of nations. Some people argue that the Germans are Nazis by nature, but the Germans I have met are not like that.

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I have met decent Germans; indeed I have met good Russians as well. I have met decent people everywhere I have been. I trust that when our Foreign Minister goes to the Peace Conference he will do as he has done over the blockade of Berlin and will exercise patience His patience on the blockade has already saved this nation tens of millions of money up to now, and I trust that that virtue will continue. The attitude of statesmen on war, as a rule, is that they prefer victory to peace. I prefer peace to victory. Sir John Lubbock once said:
"Though not a peace-at-any-price man, I am not ashamed to say that I am a peace-at-almost-any-price man."
I feel very much like that myself. My last word on this momentous occasion is this. I have lived too long to believe that pacts, printed instruments and written agreements by themselves can bring peace to mankind. I do not believe either that this Pact will prevent the spread of Communism anywhere. Nothing can prevent a foul idea from spreading but the putting of a better idea in its place. I believe that if our way of life in this country, of free speech and saying what we like—without being liquidated, by the way—can be shown to the world, the world will follow us in preference to the dictatorial type of government which has arisen in several parts of the world.
I have spoken on peace in this House on many occasions and I have wondered in travelling through this life whether I shall in due course, before I pass out, see mankind learning the hard lessons they ought to learn from wars. If they turn to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, they will find recorded there about 500 wars in history and nearly every one of those conflicts created more problems for the human race than they set out to solve. Here we are today, a few years after the most terrible war in history, faced with a problem that would never have occurred to anyone when that war began. Therefore, anything we say or do here that can prevent a third world war from occurring Members of all parties ought to do. We must save mankind from further carnage and destruction to which, if I read rightly, the two previous wars would be small by comparison. The weapons ready for use in a third world war are clearly beyond human comprehension.
6.56 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Nutting: I do not think anyone would expect me to follow, let alone answer, the speech made by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). I do not think he would expect me to decide on whose side he was throughout his speech. On many occasions he himself did not appear to know exactly whose side he was on. However, we all respect, and I sincerely respect, his views and his pacifist leanings, of which he has given vent with his usual deep sincerity.
I welcome this North Atlantic Pact, unlike the hon. Member for Westhoughton. I welcome it first because I have always felt that an arrangement of this kind was the essential prerequisite of British and Western European security and that the effective defence of Western Europe depends, at present, at any rate, on the backing and support of the United States of America. I have always felt that Western Union alone, unaided and unbacked by American help, could never be much more than a cultural, social and at best an economic "get-together." a view which I know is widely shared in France and, indeed, throughout many member States of Western Union.
I welcome the Pact, secondly, because it has brought in such countries as Norway. Iceland, Denmark, Portugal and Italy, all of whom are of obvious and vital importance to the defence of the Atlantic and of the Mediterranean. Indeed, perhaps it is not too much to hope that the combination of the proffered American support which is inherent in this Treaty with the increasing aggressive actions of the Soviet Government and the Communist parties throughout the world, has avoided what at one time appeared to be a real danger of Norway and Denmark reverting to that policy of neutrality, which served them so extremely ill in 1940. Perhaps at the same time it is not too much to hope that these two events have, temporarily at least, brought Italy and France together, to pull together and to forget their old enmities.
The third reason why I welcome this Atlantic Pact is that it has given a little much-needed moral support not only to the nations who are parties to it, but also to many other nations and peoples, outside the pact maybe, but nations who

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are direly and daily threatened by the advance of Communist aggression, such nations for instance, as India and Pakistan and the Far East in general. My final reason for welcoming this step is that it seems a step—not a very big one, but a step none the less—towards the democracies recapturing the initiative in the cold war, an initiative which, up to the present has been held indisputably and entirely by the Communists and by the Soviet Union ever since 1945.
The extent to which we can fully recapture that initiative depends, in my view, upon two things. First of all it depends upon whether we can extend our system of alliances, of which the Atlantic Pact is the beginning, to cover the Pacific and Indian Oceans and the Mediterranean; secondly, upon whether we can ensure that both the present Pact and any extensions of it which we may be able to make have the necessary force, both military, moral and economic, to defend each individual party to those arrangements.
On this second point I think the words of General Omar Bradley, the United States Chief of Staff, were by far the most encouraging news which we have received in Europe since General Marshall decided to back with deeds the American resolve to save the economy of Europe, and save Europe from Communism. General Bradley pointed out, and with truth, that in the final analysis Western Europe can be saved only by Western Europeans and that to save itself Western Europe must have the will and the means to resist. He continued:
"At present the balance of military power is centred in the United States, 3,000 miles from the heart of Europe. It must be perfectly apparent to the people of the United States that we cannot count on friends in Western Europe if our strategy in the event of war dictates that we shall first abandon them to the enemy with a promise of later liberation. … Not until we share our strength on a common defensive front can we hope to replace this temptation"—
to the aggressor—
"with a real deterrent to war."
I consider those to be extremely significant and extremely encouraging words, coming as they do from the highest officer in the American armed forces. But, so far, the main achievement of this North Atlantic Pact has been on the moral and political rather than on the military plane.
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So far such balance of strength as the Atlantic Powers possess remains, as General Bradley said, centred in the United States 3,000 miles from the heart of Europe. So far the Western European nations have not only not got any teeth, but, to my mind, they have not even a toothpick between them. We know of course in this House of Commons the dilemma in which Britain is placed—and indeed all the European nations are placed, particularly those nations who are a party to the Atlantic Treaty—we know the difficulties of reconciling rearmament and recovery.
But I sincerely and humbly submit to this House that so long as His Majesty's Government go on rearming in such a way as will not delay our economic recovery; just trying to balance themselves on the knife edge; trying to do the two things—recovering the economic position of the country and yet rearming a little bit on the side—so long as they follow that policy, so long in my humble opinion will they achieve precisely nothing whatsoever. And so long will they contribute little or nothing, to the strength, defence and security of Western Europe.
Either therefore we must face continued delays in our economic recovery, and the economic recovery of other European parties to the Atlantic Pact, or the United States of America must be asked to underwrite the vast majority of our rearmament programmes. Naturally we and our friends in Western Europe hope that we can achieve the latter alternative. I hope that discussions will take place soon between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States—if they have not already begun—to settle this problem. I hope that that will be done at a very early date, because until it is done, and until some settlement is reached, I cannot see that Britain, or the other European nations who have pledged themselves in this pact to withstand aggression and stand together in the defence of Western Europe and the Atlantic area, can possibly make a contribution to their real security or their real defence.
I have already referred to the need to extend the system of alliance begun with the Atlantic Pact. I have no time, nor would I be in order in going on a world tour along the lines which the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid) so tempt-

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ingly drew before me. But I should like to say that recently I have had the opportunity of visiting Australia, and many of the vital areas and territories that lie between that country and this; along what I think one might fairly describe as the life line of the British Empire. Everyone to whom I spoke agreed to the need to bring the Pacific and Indian Oceans and the Mediterranean into a similar arrangement to the North Atlantic Pact.
They feel as threatened as we do, and with reason. The people in Malaya feel even more threatened than we do, and with reason. They recognise that such strength and support as they have, such a halt as they may have been able to call to the advance of Communism, have been largely based on morale rather than on any military defence. But like us in Europe, they and particularly India and Pakistan have their economic problems as well, and any extension of this system of alliances across this part of the world would necesarily raise fresh problems of financing rearmament programmes.
To what extent the Middle Eastern nations, India, Pakistan and the British, Dutch and French possessions in the Far East, can be brought to a state of military preparedness in any way equal to that obviously enjoyed by the Soviet Union and her satellites is, I submit, one of the first problems which Britain and the Commonwealth and the United States of America must settle; now that we and they have been brought into formal alliance against war by the Atlantic Pact. In other words, the need is for another Marshall Plan, this time for military supplies, every bit as big and far-reaching as the European Recovery Programme. Naturally this cannot in any way be regarded by us, the recipient nations, as absolving us from our own special responsibilities to use this aid in the best interests of our defence services. All it means is that it must give to us that breathing space, which unaided we cannot have, to solve our economic and internal problems, while girding ourselves to play this vital role in the defence of civilisation.
7.10 p.m.
Mr. Zilliacus: The hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting) has developed a theme that has run through most of the speeches on the other side
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—the theme that the Atlantic Pact is only a beginning. First, it has to be extended through the Mediterranean and the Middle East to the Far East; second, in order not to be merely a paper obligation, there must be intensive rearmament. We may think that a budget of £760 million is a heavy burden, but it is only a fleabite to what we are in for as the consequence of the policy on which we are now embarking. I compliment the hon. Member on his frankness in saying that we must choose between the standard of living and rearmament in earnest. Of course, like his party, he is in favour of sacrificing the standard of living in order to arm to the teeth.
Mr. Nutting: I really cannot let the hon. Gentleman get away with that. Perhaps his previous frequent interruptions have exhausted him so much that he was asleep during that part of my speech. If the hon. Gentleman had been awake and listening, he would have heard that I clearly said that the Americans should be asked—and discussions should take place forthwith—to underwrite our rearmament programme and the rearmament programmes of the other signatories to the Atlantic Pact.
Mr. Zilliacus: In that case I withdraw my congratulations on the hon. Gentleman's frankness and I merely marvel at his optimism. The idea that the United States, which is already paying 65 per cent. of its budget on the Marshall Plan and its own rearmament programme, will pay 85 per cent. or something of that sort in order to rearm Western Europe is a proposition which Congress seems extremely reluctant to entertain.
Another theme that ran through the statements of the party opposite is that, of course, we must include Franco. One hon. Gentleman wished to include Western Germany, although he seemed a little dubious when I pressed that point home. Of course, that again is perfectly logical. If we are really to prepare for a third world war, we must not be squeamish about whom we bring in. The French and Italians may be democratic, but they do not want to fight. Franco is not democratic, the Nazis in Western Germany are not democratic, but they are ready to fight. They are the only people in Western Europe really enthusiastic at the idea of a world war against Communism, so, of course, sooner or later they have to be pressed into service.

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Another point which hon. Gentlemen opposite have stressed is that this policy of the Atlantic Pact is the fruition of the policy first set forth by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) at Fulton in 1946. So it is. Honour where honour is due. There is no doubt at all that the present policy is the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. I have often accused the Government of pursuing what I called a "crypto-Fulton" policy. I now withdraw the "crypto" part of that accusation. The right hon. Gentleman himself quoted what was said in that Motion signed by 105 of my hon. Friends condemning the Fulton policy. I should like to quote what the "Keep-Left" pamphlet—a document of historic interest today—said on that very subject. The pamphlet pointed out that the right hon. Gentleman's policy was dictated by the belief that the United States:
"can be persuaded to bolster up the British Empire—and Europe as well—as a bulwark against Bolshevism … this was the real meaning of the famous Fulton speech in which Mr. Churchill first put forward the proposal of an Anglo-American Alliance in order to fend off the menace of Communism and to deter Russian aggression… The Fulton policy has now become the official foreign policy of the U.S.A. The American strategists are interested therefore to secure a system of forward defences against Russia, manned by non-American forces… They hope that Russia will be deterred from making war by the strength of these forward positions. If war does come, they will have to be evacuated after a fighting withdrawal and then liberated in the closing stages of the war."
Liberated, of course, by atom bombs. That is what one might call post-mortem liberation. The pamphlet describes this policy as criminal folly and a policy of the United States fighting to the last Englishman and the last Western European—a policy that makes a mockery of the United Nations. The pamphlet condemns the idea that Britain and America should bring the West European nations into a grand alliance, and concludes:
"If America, supported by the Labour Government, organises 'collective security' against Russia and uses dollar loans to prop up anti-Communist régimes around her frontiers, the Communist leaders can draw only one conclusion. They will assume the worst and stand stubbornly on the defensive until their scientists have made sufficient atomic bombs to redress the balance of military power. This sort of 'collective security' is a counsel of despair. Its advocates assume an unbridgeable gulf between the Western and Eastern
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Powers and argue that the only way to stop Communism spreading is to organise the world against Russia. In the short term this means ruin for a Europe divided into rival spheres of influence: in the long run it means a third world war."
I cannot think of a more prophetically accurate description of the policy embodied in the Atlantic Pact. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford was of the opinion that the 105 Members who had signed that Motion and the hundred odd Members who were associated with the Keep Left Group have suffered a conversion. My own belief is that they have taken some kind of anti-Pelman course which has induced a condition of political amnesia. Whatever the position is, at any rate they have lived to repeat the performance of the Merovingian chieftain who burned the things he adored and adored the things he burned. But he was converted from paganism to Christianity. My hon. Friends have been converted from the collective system to power politics. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not all."] No, not all.
I come now to the point about the relation between the Atlantic Pact and the Charter of the United Nations. The Charter of the United Nations and the Atlantic Pact are each based on a political assumption. I am not arguing whether the political assumption of one is better than the other. I merely say that their respective political assumptions are diametrically opposite. The Charter, as was pointed out by the Secretary-General of the United Nations in his first Annual Report to the General Assembly, is based on the assumption that the permanent members of the Security Council can always reach agreement in the end by peaceful means and that they will ultimately agree on major issues. In other words, that whereas they may disagree and even reach deadlock in their views, they can trust each other's will to peace.
The fundamental assumption of the Atlantic Pact, as was made quite clear by the Foreign Secretary in his speech, as has been made clear by the State Department White Paper on the subject and by His Majesty's Government's White Paper on the subject, is that the Soviet Union is potentially aggressive and we must organise force—Anglo-American and Western European force—so as to be able to contain the Soviet Union and generally to deal with that country in terms of power. The collective security

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system of the North Atlantic Treaty is based on this fundamental political assumption. Article 24 of the Charter accordingly confides the job of peacemaking to the Security Council, and within the Security Council the matter is left to the agreement of the Great Powers. The Charter allows partial exceptions to the sovereignty, the supremacy, of the Security Council, both for regional agreements and in the case of the exercise of the rights of self-defence. But it hedges and circumscribes and limits these exceptions so as to safeguard the principle of the supremacy of the Security Council.
I was frankly amazed at the argument of the Foreign Secretary about Article 53 of the Charter. That Article lays down that parties to regional agreements may not resort to enforcement action without the authorisation of the Security Council. Enforcement action is defined at the beginning of Chapter VII of the Charter as being "action with respect to threats to peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression." Under Article 53, signatories to regional arrangements are not allowed to take action against acts of aggression without the authorisation of the Security Council, except against ex-enemy States.
The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): Will the hon. Gentleman say which Article he is quoting?
Mr. Zilliacus: It is the beginning of Chapter VII concerning enforcement action, which covers what I have just said.
Mr. Lipson: May I ask my hon. Friend a question? Is he saying now that, under the Charter, a nation has no right to self-defence?
Mr. Zilliacus: I shall come to that in a moment.
There is no difference between "acts of aggression" and "armed attack," which is the expression used in the Atlantic Treaty. Therefore, it is not permissible to claim that action is allowed in the name of the right of self-defence under Article 51 which is expressly prohibited under Article 53, unless you take the view that the action not allowed under a regional agreement is permissible under a world-wide agreement. In such case, we would have to reverse the his-
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toric argument of the young lady, who pleaded that, as it was only a little one, it was therefore O.K. In this case, action becomes legitimate because it is on a world-wide scale.
Now I come to Article 51, which mentions that there is nothing in the Charter which is contrary to the inherent right of collective or individual self-defence. It goes on to circumscribe the exercise of that right, so as to safeguard the position of the Security Council. It has three provisos for safeguarding that position. The first is that measures taken in the exercise of the right of self-defence last only until the Security Council takes over; secondly, that such measures must be immediately reported to the Security Council; and third—and this is the crucial provision—that such measures shall not in any way affect the authority or responsibility of the Security Council in maintaining or restoring peace. That last proviso is crucial. It means that you must not, on the plea of self-defence, create an accomplished fact of such magnitude and gravity that the Security Council is not able to deal with the resulting situation, but that you must hold your hand.
Mr. P. Noel-Baker: But the aggressor is allowed?
Mr. Zilliacus: The aggressor is to be dealt with by the Security Council.
Mr. Noel-Baker: On which he has the veto?
Mr. Zilliacus: I am only dealing with what the Charter says; my right hon. Friend is making objections which are objections to the Charter itself. By doing so he admits that the Government have abandoned the Charter.
This crucial provision is not mentioned in the Atlantic Treaty, which talks about reporting measures to the Security Council, and about ending those measures when the Security Council has taken over, but says nothing about limiting the character of those measures so that they shall not affect the authority of the Security Council.
Article 5 of the treaty proposes that a world war shall be started on a self-judged view of self-defence and the belligerent Great Powers on both sides are then to meet in the non-existent Security Council in order to agree to tell

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each other and themselves to stop fighting. It is quite obvious that the action enjoined by Article 5 would not only affect the authority of the Security Council, but would destroy that body, shatter the United Nations, split the world, and plunge humanity into war. It is fantastic that that rigmarole should be put up as being in accordance with the Charter itself. The Atlantic Treaty is inconsistent with the purposes, principles and obligations of the Charter, as well as being contrary to Labour Party policy and the Labour Party's mandate to make peace.
Nevertheless, there may be a political justification for it. I want to look at the political arguments which have been put forward. They are three. There is the argument from necessity—that there was nothing else we could do; secondly, there is the argument from defence, which is twofold—that the Charter provides for the peaceful settlement of all disputes by the methods prescribed in the Charter, and that it is purely defensive, because it comes into operation only in the case of an armed attack; and, finally, there is the political argument from strength—that if we rearm we shall be in a more advantageous position for bargaining with the Soviet Union—power-political bargaining.
The argument from necessity depends for its validity on the view that every possible means of reaching agreement by the methods prescribed in the Charter has been exhausted, that the Soviet Union is solely to blame for the deadlocks, and, thirdly, that the Soviet Union has aggressive intentions. I cannot accept any one of these contentions. I do not believe that Soviet statesmanship has been any better inspired than our own; indeed, sometimes, it has been less well inspired. But I do not doubt the Soviet will to peace any more than I doubt that of the United States or of this country. One thing is certain, and that is that all the methods of reaching agreement have not been exhausted. Many have not even been attempted. On 9th December last I indicated what in my view was a possible approach to the solution of outstanding issues on lines consonant with the Labour Party's own policy. I think that on some such lines we could find a way out of the present situation.
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As for the argument from defence and the peaceful settlement of disputes, the one thing which the deliberations at Geneva—where my right hon. Friend the Minister for Commonwealth Relations was a comrade in arms, and which he knows as well as I do—made clear is that we cannot separate the compulsory peaceful settlement of disputes from collective security against aggression, or either of these things from the limitation of armaments. The Charter links these things together. It links security and the settlement of disputes so closely together that the Security Council cannot deal with disputes except in so far as their existence is a threat to peace. And so, by torpedoing the Council as a peacekeeping organ, we are also sinking it as a body for helping to get disputes settled without war. We can have either power-politics or the rule of law, a balance of power or the United Nations. But we cannot have both.
Another thing which was made perfectly clear at Geneva is that it is extremely difficult to arrive at a satisfactory definition of aggression, even within a collective system. It is quite impossible if we return to the balance of power to distinguish defence from aggression, because both mean readiness to back your own view of your rights by force, which in practice means imposing them on the other fellow. From your own point of view, it looks like self-defence, but, from the point of view of the other fellow, it looks like imposing your views on him by force. Once we get the balance of power and an arms race, we inevitably, sooner or later, get a war, in which both sides believe they are defending themselves and historians quarrel for decades as to who started it. This confusion is made worse confounded by the North Atlantic Treaty, because Article 4 has opened the door wide to intervention in the name of defence.
Secretary of State Dean Acheson said that, under Article 4 of the Atlantic Treaty, we should be justified in engaging in armed intervention in Greece, for instance. The views of hon. Gentlemen opposite have shown complete confusion between the Soviet Government and social unrest, which is labelled as Communism, anywhere in the world. This means that, from their point of view, defence under Article 4 of the Treaty means armed

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intervention wherever the workers begin to get really tough about the capitalist social order.
I have disposed of the first two political claims for the Treaty. The third, the argument from strength, is equally fallacious. There are two fatal objections to it. The first one is that referred to by Viscount Grey in his Memoirs. I will not quote them because I have done so before. But I can summarise them by saying that his argument was that the more we arm the more we increase fear and suspicion. The more we increase armaments, the less strong we feel ourselves and the more we fear the other fellow's strength. Nobody has written or spoken on that theme more eloquently than the right hon. Gentleman who is apparently going to reply to the Debate for the Government tonight, and who will now make a case for that balance of power, which for the years we spent together at Geneva he denounced so ably and vigorously.
Mr. Gallacher: He was a pacifist.
Mr. Zilliacus: The second objection is that, in order to sustain the burden and sacrifice of the arms race, one has to foment and sustain a psychological condition in the peoples who are bearing that strain that unfits them for peacemaking. I shall give an extreme example because it is so very apposite. It is the recent declaration of Lieut.-General Doolittle of the American Air Force. Talking about the conditions that must accompany the policy of the North Atlantic Treaty, he said:
"We must prepare physically, mentally and morally to drop atom bombs on Russian centres of industry at the first sign of aggression. She must be made to realise that we will do so, and our own people must be conditioned to the necessity for this type of relations."
That is the frame of mind which one has to sustain in people in order to make them put up with lowering their standard of living so that they may produce armaments, and get slaughtered and kill others.
So much for the Atlantic Pact. It scraps the Charter and returns to the balance of power. It commits us to a new arms race. Two practical consequences follow from the incompatibility of the Atlantic Treaty with the Charter of the United Nations. The first is the uncertain tenure of life of the Treaty itself.
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Of course, a Government cannot repudiate a treaty entered into by a predecessor. But, in this case, the Government of any signatory State, if the political balance of power within that State changes, can at any moment release itself from the obligations of the North Atlantic Treaty by simply working to rule, that is, by taking its stand on the Charter and genuinely and honestly interpreting Articles 5 and 6 of the North Atlantic Treaty in accordance with, and subject to, the obligations of Articles 51 and 53 of the Charter. In an amendment on the Order Paper I have shown how that could be done. That is the first point. Therefore, anybody who reckons on a long life for the North Atlantic Treaty is building his house on sand.
The second consequence is what the peoples of the signatory States may do. They may refuse to pay for the arms race by sacrificing their standard of living, and to pay for the balance of power by losing their lives. I believe that the third arms race has quite a chance—which the first and second did not have—of being halted by the masses who are against it, a fate which Sir Edward Grey predicted in 1912 about the first arms race. Unfortunately, that did not happen then. He was wrong then, but he may be right now. The American people are already showing considerable restiveness at the burdens imposed upon them. They voted for a social programme, as well as a civil liberties programme, and for peace. They are getting neither, and they are getting very restive at the prospect of having to pay vast sums of money for an arms race. They do not want to fight alone, and have no desire to foot more than a fraction of the bill for the rearmament of Western Europe.
As for France—Italy has already been commented on by the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey)—I happen to know what the French Home Office report says on that subject after the World Peace Congress rally. The conclusion reached in that report was, "How can one arm these people?" There is a massive and determined resistance in France to the idea of being dragged into another war. It is not confined only to the Communists, although they are one-third of France, including most of the working class—a formidable force. Resistance to war goes far outside that, and it is a very determined resistance indeed.

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What about this country? Are the present rulers of the United States right in assuming that Labour Britain, with Franco Spain, and a capitalist and partly re-Nazified Western Germany, are the only reliable bases, bastions and purveyors of cannon-fodder for American Century power politics and a counterrevolutionary war of intervention masquerading as the defence of democracy? Labour's own doctrine of war resistance may come into effect with devastating consequences if we press this issue too far. I beg the Government to find some way before it is too late to come back to the policy of the Charter of the United Nations, not to create an atmosphere and conditions in which it is impossible to follow up the small break in the clouds we have seen over Berlin, but to continue to be conciliatory and moderate in their attitude, not to be rushed or stampeded into recrimination, not to put their faith in armaments, but in a wise and conciliatory policy.
7.35 p.m.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The views of the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) are well known in this House, and are not, I think, widely held by other hon. Members. When he attempts to convince us that the Soviet Union is not a potential aggressor, I can only remind him that those who live in closer proximity to the Iron Curtain than we do take a very different view. They have seen aggression, not potential but actual. The hon. Member also spent some time in discussing the text of the United Nations' Charter, but it was not the fault of the Foreign Secretary or of any statesman of the United States or of the Western Powers that the Charter of the United Nations was never fully implemented. We did everything we could to make the United Nations organisation an effective instrument. The Soviet Union and the whole of her satellites have consistently done everything they could to wreck it as an instrument for world peace.
Mr. Gallacher: America can do no wrong.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: These are facts which anybody who has followed the proceedings at any United Nations' conference cannot possibly deny.
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The Atlantic Pact which we are debating this evening is certainly an historic landmark; it is a landmark because it marks an end of the period when the United States was isolationist. The Atlantic Ocean is no longer a barrier between the New World and the Old; the Atlantic Ocean now is the link by which the New World and the Old are united in their determination to remain free. It would indeed be churlish of us not to echo our congratulations to the Foreign Secretary, congratulations which have already been offered by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), for the part he has played in building up the structure of this pact. But I think that a warning should be uttered against any temptation to sit back and say that, merely because the pact has been signed, actual physical security has been brought any closer. Security depends on something a good deal sharper than the pen. The signature of the countries concerned has not brought a single warship, a single aircraft, or a single battalion to the physical defence of Western Europe. The pact can only be an effective instrument if all countries participating in it make their adequate contribution to a common pool.
I sometimes wonder whether the full implications of the participation of countries like Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium in this pact are altogether realised. Those countries were occupied during the war for varying periods by the Nazis. That was a very unpleasant experience, but an experience, not unlike a tea party in a vicarage when compared with occupation by Soviet troops. These countries have joined the Atlantic Pact because they realise that, left alone, they can be picked off one by one, for no one seriously supposes that the Soviet Union would respect any neutrality. If they all join together and pool their common resources there is some chance for them. There should, therefore, be some clear obligations on the part of all signatories to defend those territories once they are attacked. A strategy for the defence of Western Europe based in the early stages upon the Pyrenees is not very encouraging to those who live close to the Iron Curtain, even if His Majesty's Government can summon up enough courage to have any definite policy towards Spain at all.

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If we still enjoy, as I believe we do, the moral leadership of Western Europe, I think it is absolutely essential that our own contribution to the common defence of Western Europe should be really adequate, because our moral leadership depends, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head) said, not so much on what we say as on what we do. It follows that once British Forces are earmarked for the defence of Western Europe they cannot be switched, in an emergency, to the Far East or to some other theatre which is threatened. Perhaps we can hear from the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies today—or if not this evening we might hear at some later date—what real progress has been made by Field-Marshal Montgomery with his Western Union Defence plans and the committee of which he is chairman.
We should also like to know whether, side by side with the plans for military defence, there are plans being worked out for what I might call economic defence. I have a shrewd suspicion that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are only just beginning to understand the technique of fighting the cold war. I believe economic weapons and military weapons should be wielded in the same hands and I should like to see some sort of economic defence committee set up of which the signatories to the Atlantic Pact would be members and the functions of which would be not altogether comparable to, but not very dissimilar from the functions of the Ministry of Economic Warfare.
I do not mean that I wish to see a complete barrier between East and, West, with no trade passing between; I do not mean that for a moment. What I say is that we must scrutinise a good deal more carefully in the future than we have scrutinised in the past the type of goods, and particularly capital equipment, which is flowing from West to East. I go further and say that years of scientific advantage have been lost to the Western Powers by the crazy sale of jet aircraft to the Soviet Union in 1946 and 1947. We should also like to know whether any kind of production plan is being worked out, by which certain countries produce certain types of weapons. In other words, what we want to hear from the right hon. Gentleman is a reply to this question: is the Atlantic Pact just a collection of signatures, how-
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ever well-intentioned, or is it yet backed by any sort of plan for the actual defence, military and economic, of Western Europe.
Even if progress in Western Europe is satisfactory, I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carshalton that the adjacent area, namely the Eastern Mediterranean, is also vital. I do not see how we can defend Western Europe while the Eastern Mediterranean remains insecure. After all, Italy herself is vitally concerned with the Eastern Mediterranean and it is of little use to bolt the front door while we leave the side door wide open. In this area, very urgent consideration should be given by His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States to the position of Greece. I doubt very much whether the Greek Army is at the moment large enough to fulfil the many tasks which are simultaneously required of it. I do not believe that the Greek Army is big enough to seal off the frontiers, to garrison all the towns, to conduct an offensive against the guerrillas, to guard every reservoir, every railway bridge and every power station all at the same time. If, by misuse of the veto, no effective assistance from the United Nations can be forthcoming, some urgent action must be taken by the Government of the United States and by His Majesty's Government in Greece this summer. Further, such action, if it is to be effective, must be on a scale sufficient to achieve the desired objective, namely to preserve the independence of Greece, and it must be properly co-ordinated.
I recognise that it is useless for us to try to run before we can walk. We must build up our defences in any given region as our resources permit. But we must also recognise, at the same time, that the assault upon the free world by what I call the slave world is on a world-wide scale. It is not confined to the region covered by the Atlantic Pact; there is a global strategy about it, and I do not think the global strategy is very difficult to understand. The right claw rests upon Germany, with its vast industrial potential and its tremendous military ingenuity. The left claw rests upon China, with the almost unlimited manpower of the Far East. Were these two—the industrial potential and military ingenuity of Germany, on the one hand, and the un-

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limited manpower of the Far East, on the other—ever to be harnessed, one to the other, then the outlook would indeed be bleak.
It is for this reason that I deprecate very much the various optimistic statements which have been made, both in this House and outside, about the lifting of the blockade of Berlin. I do not believe it denotes any change on the part of the Soviet Government. I believe it is due to two reasons and to two causes only. The first is that the economic weapons which the Western Powers wield—and which, in my view, they might well have wielded very much sooner—were beginning to have a very considerable effect in the Soviet zone.
Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the fact that it was the Americans, through Dr. Jessup, who made the approach to Mr. Malik in order to discuss the raising of the blockade?
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I think a good many feelers were made to Dr. Jessup before negotiations reached anything like a stage where the actual lifting of the blockade was discussed. The hon. Member's interpretation of the methods of Soviet diplomacy do not, I think, need any explanation in this House.
I repeat, the first reason for the lifting of the blockade was that the economic weapons we were wielding were beginning to have a very considerable effect in the Eastern zone of Germany. The second reason was the Soviet desire, in view of the Atlantic Pact and a certain stiffening of the attitude of the Western Powers over Berlin, to be accommodating so that they could have time to complete their plans in the Far East. It is for these reasons that provisions similar to those contained in the Atlantic Pact must be negotiated with all haste to cover both the Mediterranean and the Far East, and it is in the Far East that the British Commonwealth must play an immensely important part. I do not believe the Atlantic Pact will ever become a really effective organisation against aggression unless it is aligned to and coordinated with the resources of the British Commonwealth.
It is useless to pretend that we, or any other country which values its freedom, can defend it in this turbulent world at
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no cost. Neither the Atlantic Pact nor any other regional defence pact is a sort of insurance company from which we can get all the benefits without paying any annual premium. We shall have to spend money on armaments which we should very much like to see go in other directions. Most of the things in life which are worth while, have only been acquired by considerable struggle and can only be preserved by some sacrifice. Western civilisation has brought us something deeper and more permanent than mere material benefits. The freedom which we have inherited carries obligations as well as benefits, and if we in this generation are unmindful of the obligations, then we shall also lose the benefits. If we lose our freedom, what shall we bequeath to our children? That is why I urge the Government to act with the speed and the realism which the circumstances demand.
7.50 p.m.
Mr. M. Philips Price: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe), like many other Members on that side of the House, has dwelt very much upon the military aspects of this Atlantic Pact. While not in the least degree wishing to minimise the vital importance of those aspects which will follow from the Atlantic Pact, and the need to build up the defence of Western Europe, I think it is necessary to bear in mind that the only real defence of Europe against Communism is a sound social economic system at home. The reason China has fallen to Communism is simply that China had a corrupt and inefficient Government and social inequalities. A sound economic system is the primary defence. I think there is far too much of the argument which tends to suggest that Communism is just like Hitlerism, relying mainly on military offensives. The Red Army, existing though it does in the background, has not played a very important rôle in some of the changes which have taken place in Eastern Europe, and, with the possible exception of those in Czechoslovakia, there would not have been those changes if there had not been social disequilibrium in those countries.
I have been for the greater part of my life trying to bring about an understanding with Russia. I did not agree at the time with the Fulton speech. I thought

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it premature. At the same time, I did not sign the Motion of protest against it. I thought that possibly it might become necessary to adopt that attitude later. I happen to be, I think, the only Member of this House who was in Russia at the time of the birth of the Russian Revolution in 1917. One of the first things I saw on the eve of the seizing of power by Lenin and Trotsky, when the German Army was breaking up, was the slogan "World revolution has begun."
That expressed, undoubtedly, the whole atmosphere in which that great revolt took place. The revolutionaries thought that was the beginning of a great crusade, and that they were going to carry the fiery cross to every corner of the world. However, gradually, after some years, there came a somewhat more realistic approach. Among the revolutionaries in Moscow there was the struggle between Trotsky and Stalin, and that was the outward sign of the beginning of a somewhat more realistic approach, but at the latter end of the twenties there was even more realism on the part of the Soviet Government. They did not, of course, say that the world revolution was at an end. They looked forward to it at the end of a five-year period, and then a 10-year period. The prospect was postponed. They said, "In the meantime, we may as well sign treaties of agreement with other countries."
One of the reasons why I thought the Fulton speech premature was that I had just been in Moscow, in 1945, and had met one person who held a position in the Government who certainly thought—he told me so—that it was possible for Russia to work with Western Europe. There were people then, not at the very top of affairs, but not far from the top, holding high positions, who took that view. Therefore, I thought, "Let us hold our hands. Let us not say anything which will in any way make it appear that we are prejudging the issue and regarding Russia as an enemy." Then, unfortunately, of course, the more dogmatic, aggressive zealots began to get control. Then for a while they were more realistic again because of drought and famine in 1946. Then we began to have our troubles here, the American Loan began to peter out, and we had the coal crisis, and so the Russians thought that the
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hour had struck when they might be able to interfere in the affairs of Western Europe.
If I could live my life again, I should do what I did in the early days of the Revolution—try to defend Russia against interference from the West, when the West was trying to re-establish the old Tsarist regime. But just as I took that line, and should take it again, I am just as strong in trying to stop Russia from interfering in the West, and trying to upset that old heritage of ours of civic liberty and justice, as we have them in this country, and which enables this House to be the great symbol of Parliamentary democracy in the world.
It cannot be too strongly stressed that this treaty is only part of the Charter of the United Nations. The Charter allowed for regional pacts. The only reason why it has happened that we must have this Atlantic Pact is that one great Power on the Security Council has adopted an attitude which makes the working of the United Nations impossible. I am afraid it is very difficult for us to envisage any alteration in the Russian attitude. The Ethiopian cannot change his skin, nor the leopard his spots. The changes in Russian foreign policy do not alter the fundamental hostility of Russia to the West that she has felt in the whole course of her history. Sometimes the hostility that has been felt between Russia and the West has not been due to Russia's fault, and sometimes it has been her fault. This time it has been indeed her fault, because there never was a time in the history of the relations between Western and Eastern Europe when the West was more ready to receive Russia than it was at the end of the last war, during which the Russians' heroic defence appealed to us so much. Unfortunately, Russia's spiritual isolation, due to a whole lot of historic causes, has been intensified by her fanatical religious belief in the decline of the West and in the inevitable spread of Communism throughout the world.
This pact, it seems to me, merely puts into treaty form the old Roman saying, "Salus populi est suprema lex." Eleven nations and the great Republic of the West are doing now what the Romans did for their Republic. They are doing it in this case, when it is a question of the defence not of one republic, but the defence of the common heritage of the

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whole of Western civilisation. The question is whether, having signed this pact, we shall ever have to use it in a military sense, or whether it can be used as a means of securing Russia's co-operation. Under Article 10 it is possible for other Powers to accede to this. In that, hope may lie that Russia will make use of the opportunity.
Mr. Piratin: Article 10 suggests that the Powers who are already a party to the pact may invite another Power, not that another Power may accede without such invitation.
Mr. Philips Price: Other Powers will be glad to invite Russia if she will show that she is ready to participate with Western Europe.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Article 10 says the parties "may, by unanimous agreement." There is a veto there.
Mr. Philips Price: I do not think it will be Lisbon that will be the trouble, but Moscow. It rests with her whether she will come in.
Although there have been signs that possibly Russia may be ready to adopt a somewhat different attitude, we must not be too optimistic about the raising of the blockade. It is probably only a change of tactics. But there are people in Russia now who, in spite of the intense campaign which has been going on to harness art and science for the use of Communism, have dared to doubt the wisdom of the theory that the United States will suffer a great economic collapse. For instance, Professor Varga has been getting himself into trouble, though I understand that he has not been sacked from all his appointments. He still holds one or two, which indicates that the Russian Communists are not prepared to burn all their bridges. There is, therefore, a little hope that we may still get Russia back into the comity of nations. I fear, however, that suspicion of the West is very ingrained in Russia, where periods of reasonableness are, unfortunately, only too often broken by periods of hostility and truculence, of which we have had the latter to a very high degree just lately.
This pact is an insurance policy which will enable Western Europe to carry on with reconstruction under the Marshall Aid plan. An insurance policy does not,
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of course, carry on the business; it is only there in case of an outbreak of fire. Our business is to carry on with the economic reconstruction of Europe. The hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe) said it was necessary that there should be close scrutiny of the type of economic exchange going on between Eastern and Western Europe. That is true, but on no account must there be any attempt to cut it down. Today, more than anything else, Europe is suffering from the failure of economic exchange between Eastern and Western Europe, that natural exchange of food and raw materials for the manufactured goods of the West. Although we may have to scrutinise the kind of things we send to Russia, there is, in the main, a large quantity of goods which can be sent, and which alone will help to re-establish the economy of Europe in such a way as to make the spread of Communism unlikely and, indeed, unnecessary.
Article 6 sets out the geographical limits of the pact, which raises the whole question of the Eastern Mediterranean. Should this pact be made to cover the Eastern Mediterranean? There is no doubt that Russia—she has dropped the matter at the moment, because she is interested elsewhere—has been interfering in the affairs of Greece, where she has been trying to establish Communism. Knowing that she cannot do so in Turkey, because there are no Communists there, she has tried to intimidate Turkey by cold war propaganda. That is one reason why the Turks and the people of the Eastern Mediterranean generally are, as I know, a little worried. They think they are being left out in the cold, and I think it is desirable that we should show them, in some way, that we are not unmindful of their interests, too.
Although I agree that we cannot extend the pact to cover the whole of the Mediterranean—and certainly not to cover the Arab countries or Israel, where there are conditions which make accession undesirable because of internal difficulties—there are, nevertheless, countries on the borders of Russia which do need that assurance. First and foremost is Turkey, a strong country internally and developing rapidly, a country which has been through a revolution quite as important as the Russian revolution, which swept away the old régime. That country is devoted to the Western way of life. I

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have been there several times in recent years, and I noted controversies in the Press and on the public platform which were reminiscent of the kind of life we lead in Western Europe. So, our alliance with Turkey, and the agreement which the United States has made with her for helping her economic reconstruction, may be the basis of an Eastern Mediterranean Pact affecting mainly the countries on the border of Russia. If we can see to that, this pact will be a great deterrent to aggression. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is indeed to be congratulated on the fruition of his foreign policy, a policy which is supported by the overwhelming majority of all parties in this House and the overwhelming opinion of people outside.
8.9 p.m.
Lord John Hope: I want to do something which few Members in this interesting Debate have so far done, and that is make a short speech. I have been a little distressed to hear, more that once from the opposite benches and certainly once from this side, the note of hope in terms of the West being able effectively to co-operate with the Communist East. The hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) said he had no belief in the will to war on the part of Russia. Earlier in the Debate, Stalin was quoted, and I want to give the House a further quotation which, I think, completely disproves the hopeful sentiments of the hon. Member for Gateshead. This will be familiar to the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin). I am not certain if it is from one of the published speeches but it is up to date. This is what Stalin says.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: What is the date?
Lord John Hope: I think 1947. He says:
"We cannot forget the saying of Lenin to the effect that a great deal in the matter of our construction depends not on whether we succeed in delaying war with the capitalist countries, which is inevitable but which may be delayed either until proletarian revolution ripens in Europe, or until the colonial revolution comes fully to a head, or finally until the capitalists fight among themselves over the division of the colonies. Therefore the maintenance of peaceful relations with capitalist countries is an obligatory task for us. The basis of our relations with capitalist countries consists in admitting the co-existence of two opposed systems."
Mr. Piratin: I did not interrupt the noble Lord when he made his first mistake in referring to a statement quoted by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid) as having been made by Stalin. It was stated not by Stalin but by Lenin, in 1918. It was stated in 1918 but the book was published in 1947. It is like publishing Shakespeare today and saying that it relates to the 20th century.
Lord John Hope: I am sure that what Shakespeare said is good enough for most people today.
Mr. Piratin: Is what the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said in 1943 good enough for today?
Lord John Hope: Yes, and also what Gladstone said in 1883.
I was astonished to hear the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) refer to the lifting of the Berlin blockade as a gesture towards peace by the Russians. I cannot see that that is so. I am delighted that the blockade has been raised, but how can anyone seriously attribute it to the Russians in such terms? One might as well say that the burglar who retreats in front of a successful counter-attack by the householder is making a gesture towards peace. I cannot agree with that argument of the hon. Member. I do not intend to go into the reasons for the lifting of the blockade, but I am certain that everyone in this House knows why the Russians agreed to lift it. What has happened in Berlin is simply that a battle has been won. It had been a bloodless battle, and to that extent we must be all profoundly grateful. A battle has been won in Berlin but it is only the first battle of many that will be fought for Berlin. It has been won by the West.
Before dealing with the forthcoming Soviet counter-attack in Paris, I should like briefly to underline what I believe to be the respective gains in this battle, because they are not all on one side. I hold it to be a good thing for the peaceful Powers of the West that the blockade has been lifted. It has given a chance, which might not otherwise have existed, of getting through this business one day. But there are also gains which accrue to the Communist cause. As I see the position, I believe, taking the Anglo-American gains first, that the victory of

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Berlin must undoubtedly have put great heart into the people of Europe. Secondly, it must have put considerable fear into the Russians in regard to any future aggression. Thirdly, it has given to the West, at least the possibility of a future reduction in the enormous cost which the upkeep of such a measure as the air lift has represented.
On the Soviet side I see three gains—certainly two definite gains and one potential gain. In relation to Germany, it has given the Russians a chance to discuss all Germany with the three other Occupation Powers, and of course they badly wish to block any further consideration of a Western German State. A gain to the Russians outside Germany—and this is a point which I do not think has so far been touched upon in this Debate—is that the Russians will be given, as is intended by them, time to deal with Tito, or to attempt to deal with him. Certainly no one who is in the least familiar with "Problems of Leninism" can doubt the supreme importance of Marshal Tito's deviation. The hon. Member for Mile End will recall that on page 14 of the 11th edition of 1945 we find these words:
"The tendency of practical workers to brush theory aside contradicts the whole spirit of Leninism and is pregnant with great dangers for the Cause."
To Stalin, the present split in the Communist Party may well be of greater importance for the moment than the German problem.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The noble Lord has given us these quotations. Could he tell us if he has ever read the whole book "Stalin on Leninism"?
Lord John Hope: All that I can say is that I have obviously read enough for it to be inconvenient to the hon. Member.
Any agreement which the Soviets may make while they are trying to deal with Tito can easily be broken by them when it is convenient for them to break it. The third Soviet gain is that they have now got a chance to work upon the anxieties of the American people, and they have their allies in that task in the United States. A great friend and fellow traveller with the hon. Member for Gateshead is Mr. Henry Wallace. I cannot pass on without recalling to the House the answer given by Mr. Wallace to a question he was asked by one of
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the Senators in the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. Having said that he thought that the Czechoslovakian coup was a spontaneous Communist coup by the Czechs, Mr. Wallace was asked whether Mr. Vyshinski was not in Czechoslovakia at the time. "Yes." he replied, "I believe that he was there on a cure," to which a Senator, I think aptly, replied, "Yeah, he took the cure and gave it to the Czechs." Those are the kind of people whom the Russians will hope to influence to a growing degree by means of the pause which has been brought about by the lifting of the blockade. I should add that I do not for one moment think that the Russians will succeed in any way in unsteadying public opinion in America; I believe public opinion there to be thoroughly steady in this matter from coast to coast.
So far as Paris is concerned, my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford quite rightly gave it as his opinion that we should be careful in what we said in this Debate lest any embarrassment might be caused to the course of that conference. I do not think that any embarrassment can be caused simply by stressing one or two obvious facts. It is obvious that the Soviet will ask for at least three things—the unification of Germany, the withdrawal of Occupation Forces and a Peace Treaty on the basis of the first two demands. I sincerely trust that no accommodation whatever will be reached with the Soviet Government along those lines unless Russia and Poland surrender the territories which they have annexed and withdraw their troops not merely behind the Oder, but behind their own frontiers.
All I wish to say further about the battle of Berlin is that the air lift has taught the world that the Soviet Government will hesitate in the face of determined resistance. May that lesson never, never, be lost upon the West in the days and years to come. I think in that connection that somebody in this House should pay a tribute to General Clay for the firmness with which he is dealing with this extremely tricky and delicate situation. I should now like to quote some remarkable words spoken by General Marshall after the abortive London meeting in December, 1947. This is what he said:

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"The issue is really clear-cut, and I fear there can be no settlement until the coming months demonstrate whether or not the civilisation of Western Europe will prove vigorous enough to rise above the destructive efforts of the war and restore a healthy society. Officials of the Soviet Union and leaders of the Communist parties openly predict that this restoration will not take place. We, on the other hand, are confident in the rehabilitation of Western European civilisation with its freedoms."
How has that prophecy been borne out? Magnificently, I think. It has been borne out largely by four great steps. First, we have had the progress of the European Recovery Programme; secondly, Western European Union; thirdly, the Council of Europe; and fourthly, the signing of the Atlantic Pact. I think that three further steps follow. Obviously the first is the ratification of the pact; secondly, consideration and formation of a West German State, and thirdly, so far as the United States are concerned, Senate approval of the huge American defence appropriation.
In conclusion, I want to make an appeal to the party opposite. Something on these lines has already been said in the Debate, but it cannot be said too often. There is going to be strong temptation in the future for politicians in this country, to accuse those who are opposed to them in politics, of wanting war. I must say that I wish we could find it in our hearts to have our political disputes in this country, without trying to persuade the electorate that anybody wants war. It simply cannot be true. It cannot be true of the most reactionary capitalist—if that is what some people like to call a capitalist—because no one stands to lose more by war than a man who possesses a great deal of capital. As for the human side, I wish to goodness that hon. Members opposite would understand that many of us on this side of the House know what war is, just as they do. We have fought in war; we have seen war. We know the miseries and unhappiness it brings, and we know the results economically as well as in any other way. Although we may be Tories, we do not want war. So let us have that idea dismissed from what is known as "Tom Driberg's column" and every other column.
I am not entirely pessimistic about the issue of this fight, which is a fight to the death between the free way of life and the Communist way of life. Although we
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may not have got one world, the fact that we have managed to reduce many different worlds to two, is a pretty good step in the right direction. Led by the revolution in American public opinion—and that is what it has been—I think it is just possible that the free West may win this war against Communism without organised bloodshed, but it will only win it if it becomes and remains strong and resolute, not only in the letter but in the spirit of the Atlantic Pact. That is why I welcome the chance to join with Members on both sides of the House in congratulating the Foreign Secretary upon his patience and determination. The maintenance of our strength may cause discomfort to us for a long time, but we may be sure that the alternative to our discomfort is our destruction.
8.26 p.m.
Mr. Piratin: I am sure that the House is prepared to accept that the hon. Member for Northern Midlothian and Peebles (Lord John Hope), does not want war. I would, however, make two comments: first, that he goes a queer way about proving it, in view of what he has been saying in the last 15 minutes; and second, that we should recall what his leader, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), said in October last at the Conservative Party Conference, that we should drop the atom bomb on Russia before they had it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] I will quote "The Times" if that is what hon. Members opposite wish.
Mr. Nutting: Quote the words.
Mr. Piratin: If you want to speak, stand up. Otherwise behave yourself.
Mr. Nutting: Will the hon. Member quote the words used by the Leader of the Opposition to prove his case? He cannot prove it.
Mr. Piratin: I shall do so. I shall bring the quotation in later. My next point is that the hon. Member for Northern Midlothian and Peebles, and the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid), who I am glad to see in his place, should be a little more honest in their quotations. Both of them made quotations from books which, it may be—I do not know the publications they were referring to—were published in 1945 or 1947, but neither disclosed that the

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actual time when the statements were made was 1918.
Lord John Hope: Is the hon. Member suggesting that those books, which are now being circulated in their umpteenth editions to the tune of millions of copies, are not supposed to mean what they say was said in 1918?
Mr. Piratin: I shall develop the point. Earlier I asked the hon. Gentleman whether he stands by what his leader said in 1943; of course, he had no answer to that, and he wisecracked an answer. The right hon. Member for Woodford has been writing his own memoirs, which are being circulated today, and they disclose what he said in 1943, 1944 and 1945 about Russia, the Red Army and Stalin.
Mr. T. Reid Mr. T. Reid rose—
Mr. Piratin: One moment. Behave yourself, be calm.
Major Legge-Bourke: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. You have twice been told to behave yourself. Is that in Order?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I do not think the hon. Member was directing those remarks to me personally, but he might in future use more appropriate words.
Mr. Piratin: I think you appreciate that I was not referring to you, Major Milner, even though the hon. and gallant Member is not intelligent enough to appreciate that.
Hon. Members who make these remarks cannot have it both ways. On the one hand, when Stalin talks peace in the various statements which he has made since the end of the war, when he has spoken of peace in Western Europe, peace with Russia and peace with America, they say "You cannot trust him because while he talks of peace, others prepare for war." The capitalist Press has referred to a fictitious rift between Stalin and Molotov, or Stalin and somebody else, to show that there are two different policies working at the same time. So it is suggested that Stalin wants war, by going back to statements which were made in 1918 by Stalin or by Lenin, and then quoted accordingly. If we want to discuss politics today, let us say that
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the last war was a war in which we all learned our lessons. Let us start from that war—
Mr. T. Reid Mr. T. Reid rose—
Mr. Piratin: No, I shall not give way. Let us start from that war and look at the statements made by leading statesmen in the Soviet Union and leading statesmen whether in Government or Opposition in this country and in America. I think that hon. Members should bear these things in mind in discussing how to achieve peace.
I want to come to some of my main points. The Motion before the House asks us to approve the Atlantic Treaty which, it is claimed, is concerned with the promotion of stability and well-being and with collective defence in order to preserve peace and security. The Foreign Secretary today and the White Paper which has been published avoid the questions of stability and well-being, but the Foreign Secretary made a fairly long statement this afternoon in which he tried to prove two things. First, that this is a collective defence and that there is no aggressive aim, and certainly no aggressive aim towards Russia.
The second thing which he tried to prove, without much enthusiasm and with little conviction, was that the Atlantic Treaty falls within the terms of the United Nations Charter. He stumbled over that several times. It is clear that when he made his statement today he had something in mind even more than expounding on the Atlantic Treaty which was his responsibility. Several Members on this side of the House, I am certain, will wonder why he had to speak with such feelings towards the Soviet Union, when something is taking place in these days which could be the basis of a change in international affairs. In a few days, the four Foreign Ministers, including the right hon. Gentleman himself, are to meet in Paris. Hon. Members opposite appear to be pessimistic about this event. Let us afford ourselves a little optimism. The Foreign Secretary today did not help very much in that respect in putting more logs on to the fire.
The right hon. Member for Woodford called for caution in our statements today in view of the need to prepare for whatever arises at the Paris conference.

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Hon. Gentlemen behind him did not take much heed of that, and one hon. Gentleman said, with regard to the forthcoming conference, we have now to prepare for the Russian counter-attack.
Lord John Hope: Hear, hear.
Mr. Piratin: In the White Paper published a few weeks ago there is a lot of "blah" about the Treaty, if I may use a colloquial term. There is a statement, for instance, in the preamble to the Treaty which reads as follows:
"They are determined"—
that is the nations—
"to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law."
I was reminded in reading this of the fact that one of the nations participating in the Treaty is Portugal, and if Portugal is based on democratic principles, the word democracy has a very queer interpretation. When it speaks of "individual liberty and the rule of law" I was likewise reminded of the fact that in the Southern States of America the rule of lynch law operates. The preamble further states:
"They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area."
I have no doubt that this refers to E.R.P., in which connection I should like to read an extract from a report of the Finance Commission of the Council of the French Republic, concerning the Marshall Plan, which says:
"This profound transformation of the objectives of our production is perhaps an international, political, or economical necessity. One can, however, underline that this new orientation presents a certain analogy with that assigned to us"—
that is to France—
"during the first months of the occupation by the Nazis."
The interpretation of the French Finance Commission is that the directives they are now receiving from Marshall Aid headquarters, are not unidentical with the directives they were receiving when France was occupied by the Nazis.
Mr. Tolley: They have the right to refuse Marshall Aid.
Mr. Piratin: Certainly they have the right to refuse Marshall Aid; that only reveals the degree of treachery on the part of the French Government who are
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accepting it while knowing this position. I have read out the view of the Finance Commission of the French Parliament.
A further factor concerning the Treaty which ought to be recorded is that there is misrepresentation. I trust that that misrepresentation is not deliberate, and that therefore it will be explained or corrected. In Paragraph 14 of the White Paper, the House can read an explanation of Article 4 of the Treaty. I should like to read Article 4, which is only one short sentence:
"The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened."
I should now like the House to follow me in reading the second sentence of Paragraph 14 of the White Paper, which is intended to elucidate this very obvious sentence. Paragraph 14 says:
"This means that each country, if it feels itself threatened, has the right to summon its partners to consultations."
That is not true. Article 4 means that any one country may refer to all the others any incident which happens in any other country. That is my interpretation of Article 4, and I hope that whoever replies—I trust a note of what I am saying will be given to him—will deal with this question, because in this respect the White Paper is misrepresenting. I trust it is an accident, in which case it will be remedied. If, however, it is not an accident, it means that the White Paper is meant to mislead the people of this country who will read it or reports of it, so that they shall not understand the degree of intervention involved in this Treaty.
Article 4 permits deliberate interference in the affairs of another country. Something may happen in France, or Belgium which the American Government feel ought to be referred to the North Atlantic Treaty signatories, and they then decide, irrespective of what France or Belgium want, to go ahead and take action. That is intervention—and intervention which I should have thought this House could not accept. Some of the military intentions in the Treaty are quite clear. Most hon. Members on the other side of the House who have spoken have confined themselves to the military and so-called defensive aspects of the Treaty. It is evident that they are quite convinced as to what the Treaty is really about.

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As for the United Nations Charter, the Foreign Secretary may try to juggle with the wording of Articles 51 and 53 and chapter 8, but there is one thing with which he cannot juggle, and that is the clear-cut statement of Mr. Lester Pearson, who holds the position of Foreign Minister in the Canadian Government. After he signed the Treaty he said:
"The Western world no longer considers the United Nations seriously."
Other statesmen have made similar statements and the House and country can judge as to what is now the Government's attitude to the United Nations Charter.
There is one question I should like to ask before I pass on, and that is: If the Atlantic Treaty is really based upon the United Nations' Charter how is it that Portugal and Italy are signatories? The United Nations Charter in every relevant Article insists that such regional organisations as are founded shall be established only by members of the United Nations Organisation. Portugal and Italy are not such members, and yet they are signatories to the Atlantic Treaty. Why does not the Foreign Secretary tell the House that he is not acting consistently with the Charter, and that he intends to pursue a different course from that which the Charter intended?
The Foreign Secretary this afternoon stated that the Atlantic Treaty was not inconsistent with the Anglo-Russian alliance. I know around me if not much further afield, a few hon. Members smiled when the right hon. Gentleman made that statement, and we wondered how he could use the word "alliance" as between Britain and Russia, for every other hon. Member in this House who speaks of Russia, speaks as though we were already at war with that country. The Foreign Secretary this afternoon made a violent attack upon Russia with whom we have an alliance, and yet according to him that is not inconsistent with this Treaty. He stated, and it has been said by others, that the Treaty is directed against nobody let alone Russia, but is merely to act as a deterrent. That is the opinion of many Members of this House who, perhaps, sincerely accept that that is so. However, let us face it.
Against whom is it directed? There are five great Powers recognised in the world since the war. Two are Russia and China,
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and the other three, Britain, America and France, are members of the Atlantic Treaty. Of whom are we afraid? Of a South American Republic? Of Siam? Obviously it is one of the great Powers. It is not China, for she is settling her own affairs very well. There is only Russia. Why is it not said in so many words? Why is it left to back benchers on both sides of the House to dot the i's and cross the t's of the Foreign Secretary's speech, and say that it is Russia?
The Foreign Secretary said that the Atlantic Treaty was for our defence, but the thing has been put bluntly by a statesman in the United States. The House will forgive me if I quote these words, which were said by Senator Cannon, who is Chairman of the Appropriations Committee of the American Senate. He is not an unimportant individual in the United States, nor for that matter in international affairs. I am quoting from an American newspaper which reported him as saying this:
" Moscow and every other center in Russia, we must hit within one week after the war starts and it can be done only by land-based planes such as we now have. We will not necessarily have to send our land army over there. In the next war, as in the last war, let us equip soldiers from other nations and let them send their boys into the holocausts instead of sending our own boys."
He went on:
"We will absolutely demoralise the enemy. We will destroy all his lines of communications. We will blast at the centers of operation and then let our allies send the army in—other boys, not our boys to hold the ground we win."
Not only did this warmonger state quite deliberately against whom he is going to fight and against whom he appears to be keen to fight, but he had also got it nicely worked out. There may be some of us who say that it is not going to be like that, but he has got it worked out. The United States Government will give the orders and they will provide the material, or much of it, and the dollars, while we provide the cannon fodder as we did last time, as the senator himself says.
It would be invidious of me—I say this sincerely—to try to weigh up the contribution to the war by the amount of blood lost, but that is the way wars go. Far be it for me to suggest that anyone should sacrifice more blood. We did not make balance sheets of the last war. We shall all agree with that; but here it is this

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Senator Cannon, Chairman of the Appropriations Committee, who is saying those things, and not I. No Englishman would say them, but this senator has said them. The Atlantic Treaty is placing us in the position of carrying out the orders of men like Senator Cannon, of America.
Any war which is contemplated by any Member of this House or elsewhere will not be directed or decided upon by this House or our own Government. It will be decided upon and directed by the United States. The Atlantic Treaty is aimed, therefore, not only at military intervention of the kind I have shown but, in the name of fighting the menace of Communism—and here I appeal particularly to my fellow-Members on this side of the House—it is trying to stem every progressive movement in the world. The Question was asked here a few weeks ago whether the Colonial Secretary accepted every report he receives from governors in the Colonies concerning Communist subversive activity. The Minister had to admit that in many cases, there was no question of Communist subversive activity and it was merely a matter of social unrest.
What the Atlantic Treaty can do is to achieve intervention everywhere, as it has been achieved in Greece. In Greece it is claimed that Communists are being fought by Government forces, but in fact it is not only Communists. Every decent trade unionist ends up in gaol and even faces the executioner. Liberals are persecuted. Socialists are imprisoned. In the name of fighting Communism, Americans and their leading statesmen regard Communism and Socialism as identical, and Communism and militant trade unionism as identical. Many trade union Members on this side of the House recognise the truth of my statement, after they have heard some of the American statesmen and have read their speeches. These things are to be perpetrated under the Atlantic Treaty. This is a terrible step to take, because the brunt of war will be on our shoulders.
We have United States troops stationed in England, not only in places like Lincolnshire and Lancashire, but within 10 miles of this House, at Northolt. A thousand United States troops are stationed there, and the United States Headquarters is stationed there. We have atom bomb planes now stationed in
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England, and the atom bomb planes will operate from England.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Why not?
Mr. Piratin: The hon. and gallant Gentleman asked, "Why not?" and earlier another hon. Gentleman said that we all suffer equally in war. It is no reflection on any hon. Member in this House, but I say that that is not true. An hon. Gentleman earlier tried to suggest that the capitalists suffered more. That is not true. We stand to lose our lives or the lives of our children. The capitalists are very often able to give better protection to their families than the working-class families in East London had in the last war. Let there be no illusion about that. The hon. and gallant Member for South Paddington (Vice-Admiral Taylor) may laugh because American bombers are now based in this country and are able to use the atom bomb; the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who held a very important post in the British Navy, may be glad to know that foreign troops are occupying this country. All I can say is that that is a reflection on him and others who hold that kind of Conservative view point.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: In the event of any trouble occurring and war being declared on this country, we shall be very glad to have the United States Forces here to help us in the war.
Mr. Piratin: The hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "In the event of war being declared" we shall be glad to have them here. No war has been declared.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: I did not say it had: I said "if war was declared."
Mr. Piratin: Yes, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman is glad to have them here now. If another war comes—we hope it will not—it will be the United States which will give the orders and provide the bombers, and it will be our Forces and our young people and the young people of France and Italy who will be expected to provide the blood. The homes and industries of our countries will be sacrificed in another war.
Therefore, even at this stage I ask the Government to base its policy not on what is contained in the Atlantic Treaty but on the spirit of the United Nations

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Charter, and to take the opportunity of the meeting of the Foreign Ministers in Paris to see if a new alignment and understanding can be reached in international affairs. This opportunity should be seized. If the Foreign Secretary wants to do so, he can make an effort in that direction; if he does not want to do so, and fails to seize the opportunity, it is clear that we are headed for war by a pre-determined policy. The Atlantic Treaty is not in accord with the desires of the people for peace, and those in this House who really desire peace, will vote against it.
8.54 p.m.
Mr. Lipson: I have no desire to be unfair to the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin), but I cannot believe that much of what he has said is likely to contribute to the preservation of peace and the prevention of another war. After all, that is all we care about, and the purpose of the Debate is to discuss the North Atlantic Treaty from that point of view. I will confine what I have to say to the North Atlantic Treaty and will not say anything which is likely to make the task of the Foreign Secretary more difficult in the very delicate negotiations which will take place in the near future with Russia and the other Powers.
I welcome the pact wholeheartedly because I regard it as an instrument for peace, and nothing I have heard during the Debate has weakened my conviction. Twelve nations, comprising something like 330 million people, have created, as it were, a new family of nations, and their purpose reminds me very much of the British Commonwealth of Nations. These 12 nations have declared that they will not go to war with each other, but that they will settle their disputes by peaceful means and also that an attack upon one will be regarded as an attack upon all. Those are the very principles behind the British Commonwealth. I welcome therefore this North Atlantic Treaty because it very considerably extends an area of stability and of peace in the world.
The question has been asked whether the North Atlantic Treaty is helpful to the United Nations, or even compatible with the United Nations Charter. We have to recognise the political situation as it is. Something like a deadlock has
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arisen in the United Nations owing to the use by Russia of the veto, and the cold war which she has waged. The factors which were necessary to give the United Nations effective power to achieve its ends seem not to be possible at the moment and a very serious international situation has been created. Some way out of the deadlock had to be found. Things could not go on as they were and the answer to the deadlock is the North Atlantic Treaty, by which the peace-loving nations can say, "We shall not be held up in our efforts to try to settle international problems by reason of the fact that one of the great Powers is refusing to play the game by the United Nations." For that reason they have come together and, just as the air lift was the answer to the blockade of Berlin, so I believe the North Atlantic Treaty is the answer to the deadlock in the United Nations.
Mr. Harold Davies: We thought the same about the Locarno Pact.
Mr. Lipson: The deadlock was having a serious effect on opinions everywhere. Those who were going up and down the country trying to get support for the United Nations found a lack of faith and a great apathy and that public opinion was being convinced that the United Nations was not going to work and achieve its purpose. I believe the North Atlantic Treaty, with the machinery it is setting up, so far from weakening the United Nations will, if it achieves its purpose, revive confidence in it, because those supporting the North Atlantic Treaty are agreed that it is their purpose ultimately to achieve universal security.
The best way to achieve universal security is to make sure that for the time being another war is prevented. It is obvious that that will take a long time. We all hope that Russia will be reasonable and willing to play her part in the comity of nations. During the intervening period there must be given to the nations of the world, particularly the small Powers, some kind of reassurance and some kind of security. If they get that security it will be much easier for their Governments to concentrate on their real job which is to restore the economic prosperity of their countries and to see to the well-being and happiness of their citizens. I believe that is the best way of preventing the spread of Communism throughout the world.

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I want to utter one or two words of warning. I hope that people will not say that now we have the North Atlantic Treaty there is no longer any need for the United Nations; because there are 12 nations only who are included at present in the North Atlantic Treaty, but there are 59 nations in the United Nations. Though, for the time being, we are not able to achieve universal security, we must still work for it, and recognise that the North Atlantic Treaty is only a second best. We must not lose our faith that in the end we shall be able to achieve that universal security, that complete freedom from war which no North Atlantic Treaty can by itself give us. The North Atlantic Treaty can only give us a breathing space.
To those who feel that there is any threat to Russia in the North Atlantic Treaty, the answer is obvious. Let Russia in the future play her part, as we all hoped she would have played it, in the United Nations, to make it a success, and to that extent the North Atlantic Treaty will cease to be necessary and operative. But until that happens we must have the strength and support that the North Atlantic Treaty can give by making the position of the peace-loving nations more secure in the world. Although it is a second best method, the purpose of the treaty is to prevent war by bringing home to any would-be aggressor the deterrent of overwhelming force. Ultimately, we shall only get world peace by agreement; we have to continue to work for that and I hope that we shall.
As an intermediate step I welcome the treaty and join with others in expressing my appreciation to the Foreign Secretary for the important part he has played in making it possible. After all, it has been no easy task to persuade the United States to make this almost complete break with her policy of isolation; and to persuade the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark and Iceland to abandon their policy of neutrality. But the Foreign Secretary has been able to do it, and having achieved success to that extent, we hope he will be able to achieve the greater success which he and all lovers of peace wish to see.
9.3 p.m.
Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I feel that a good many of the speeches made in this Debate have been too nega-
2110
tive in character. In particular, I wish that more stress had been put on the importance of the psychological factor in countering the spread of Communism in the world. Those people who think that Communism can be turned back by military means are barking up the wrong tree. Communism and its spread can be stopped only by putting something more positive and more appealing in its place. In relation to this particular point a good article recently appeared in the Free Church "British Weekly." Indeed, that was one of the few papers in the country which voiced constructive criticism of this North Atlantic Treaty. All the rest of the British Press seemed to be entirely in favour without stressing any of the vital points which my right hon. Friend would do well to bear in mind if this North Atlantic Treaty is really to be the instrument it was intended to be. This quotation from the "British Weekly" is well worth making. The paper says:
"For one thing the threat to our way of life is not only, and perhaps not chiefly, militaristic; and war preparations continued beyond a certain point must disrupt Western economy and create the wants and social discontent in which Communism flourishes as certainly as war itself."
Those are words of wisdom. In the struggle with Soviet ideology, I do not believe that this pact means half as much as many people are assuming. Unless the free nations of the world can solve their economic problems—and not least the United States of America—in such a way that their wealth can jointly be released and made available to the depressed masses in the world, then I believe they will fail; and time, let me remind the House, is short.
There are two other points which I should like to make which are in line with the reasoned Amendment which appears on the Order Paper below my name and that of the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg). The first point is that I feel that the North Atlantic Treaty is likely to divert Soviet pressure eastwards. That, I should think, in the state of affairs in the Middle East and in the Far East, is a somewhat alarming proposition for those friends we have got in those parts of the world. Democracy in that area is a very weak plant. Indeed, in many parts it has not taken root at all. The West is much better placed to resist the infiltration of Communism

2111
than are the underfed, long-neglected people in those parts of the world which I have mentioned.
The other and last point I wish to stress is that the pact does not seem to make strategic sense without the inclusion of Spain and, I would add, Ireland also. To be associated with Franco Spain is anathema to me, and I know that it is the same in the case of a great many of my hon. Friends on this side of the House. In stating that the Spanish question is a European family matter, Mr. Acheson, the Secretary of State in the United States of America, has most accurately analysed the Franco Government for us. I should like to quote to the House his words which appear in "The Times" today. [HON. MEMBERS: "It has been done already."] I quoted part of them, but not all, in my interruption of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition when he was sliding over, as I thought, the feeling in the country which I know exists against our being associated with present-day Spain. Mr. Acheson, according to "The Times," speaking of the Franco Government, said:
"It was a Fascist Government and a dictatorship; it had been set up by Hitler and Mussolini and patterned on Germany and Italy. It did not recognise any of the rights which made up individual liberty. There was no religious freedom, trial by jury, or right of political association. The judiciary was not independent, and habeas corpus was unknown. There was nothing more fundamental in the preservation of human liberty than that ancient British tradition which was not incorporated in most of the procedures in the free world. Such rights did not exist in Spain."
These sentiments, coming from such a quarter, are to me most encouraging, as also is the fact that when recently I was in the United States I found that isolation is more or less a dead letter. It is a gloomy thing to say in conclusion, but I believe that the one hope of the world of avoiding catastrophe lies in the negative assertion that nobody wants war. I urge my right hon. Friend to exploit this sentiment to the full, and to be alive to the dangers which I have mentioned in connection with the Atlantic Treaty. Unless he is so alive, I fear that this treaty may prove to have brought war nearer, rather than to have removed it from the world.
9.10 p.m.
Mr. R. A. Butler: We have had a very informative and useful Debate on this matter and it is now drawing to its end. We are here this evening to celebrate the vision of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), the culmination of a life of negotiation of the Foreign Secretary himself, the wise statesmanship of Mr. St. Laurent in Canada, and the generous and unprecedented sense of duty of the United States of America. So I think we may feel united—or most of us, except for those Communists and fellow-travelling companions who are taking part in the Debate this evening—in support of a great step forward, not only in diplomatic history, but in the preservation of the peace of the world.
What I think we have to do now, or shortly, is to ratify this treaty, and the first question I would like to put to the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply to the Debate is whether he will tell us how many countries have so far ratified the treaty. I understand that we are among the first, and I hope that the House of Commons, by an overwhelming majority, will take this first active step, because if there is one lesson we must learn about the treaty, it is that, however much we admire its ideals and objectives, we must reinforce its contents and work out what it means in regard to our obligations under it, and be ready to fulfil them if called upon. That means a great deal more hard work for the Government and all who are involved in interpreting the treaty, and if this Debate can serve a useful purpose, apart from indicating our support of this treaty, it can serve the purpose of pushing the Government forward in the task of implementing the whole of what the treaty means and contains.
We should also have no doubt about the immense political and moral strength in the world which is gathered in support of this treaty and in support of peace, in spite of some of the speeches which have been made this evening. This political and moral strength is, I believe, more important than the physical strength which we may gather afterwards.
Mr. Gallacher: Chamberlain's dupes.
Mr. Butler: I am speaking quite sincerely in the remarks I am making. We have listened to a good many speeches

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from the friends of the hon. Gentleman, and he might do me the courtesy of listening in silence to mine.
I was about to say that this question of political and moral strength is just as important as the physical strength which we may be able to gather later, and this point was made in the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head). I congratulate him and also the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting) upon their important speeches. There is one other speech to which I should like to make reference, that made by the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher); and here I would like to reserve my position and that of many of my hon. and right hon. Friends in regard to the future arming of Germany. We believe that this is a subject of great danger and delicacy, which ought to be approached very cautiously, and, while I should be ready to support a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman said, at this early stage of my remarks I wish to make clear the attitude of many of my hon. Friends and myself on that very important and difficult subject.
The hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) used an expression of Viscount Grey's that the more one piled up armaments, the more one created the fear of war. I only wish myself that we had been able to get the Minister of Defence, who has been good enough to come here this evening, to pile up more armaments for the immense sums of money which we are now giving him for this purpose, and I encourage the Government to pile up more armaments. We are not at the moment in fear of an armaments race, but we have the need to mobilise our strength in support of the active diplomacy which is conducted by the Foreign Secretary.
I do not believe there is a fear of war being created by an armaments race; I believe it is very much more the other way, and that we should ask the Minister of Defence to continue his efforts to improve our armaments at this time. I am quite convinced that if we can show the world that we believe in our ideals, that the West has beliefs as deep and permeating as the Communist religion—if I may call it that—if we can persuade the world of that, and can back that with the strength necessary to preserve our position and keep the peace, then, indeed, we shall save the peace. At any rate,
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no doubts have been expressed on the Opposition side in the course of this Debate that that is our philosophy and what we believe.
I could, of course, spend a great deal of time in answering some of the points made in the Debate this evening by speakers opposite, but I want, first, simply to answer what I think has gained a certain currency in this Debate, and that is that the North Atlantic Treaty is inconsistent in some way with the ideal of collective security. I feel that this matter could be argued by learned lawyers until the cows come home, and that no doubt the Attorney-General, were he to do us the honour of replying to the Debate, could give us a very learned view on this subject. But I am not a lawyer, and, as a simple man, I have simply read the document.
I remember that when I first became a Minister many years ago at far too young an age to be healthy, I met the Attorney-General of the day, who gave me this advice. He said, "If you read the document ahead of the Debate, you will always find yourself in a stronger position than anyone else debating, except the lawyers, and you can always overcome that by saying, 'I am not a lawyer.' On that you can build your political career." I have always followed his advice, and, in this case, I have read the document carefully, and I must say that, to a simple man, it is quite easy to support the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, because if we read Article 7 we find that:
"This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting, in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security."
Quite frankly, without going into legal arguments, that is good enough for me. The fact is that this pact is organised under the general aegis of Article 51 of the Charter, which I have here before me, and I think it is apposite to say that it must necessarily have been brought in under Chapter 8 of Article 52. I know that Article 52 of the Charter draws attention to the fact that:
"The members of the United Nations entering into such arrangements or constituting such agencies shall make every effort to achieve pacific settlement of local disputes through such regional arrangements or by such

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regional agencies before referring them to the Security Council."
I anticipate that that is precisely the procedure which will be undertaken under this pact, and, therefore, I dismiss as being not worthy of further debate, the various legalistic approaches made by various hon. Members to this point, that this past is not consistent with the principle of collective security.
Now I come to a far more important matter which was raised by the Foreign Secretary himself, when he said that there was nothing inconsistent in this pact with the Anglo-Soviet Pact. If that be the case, I think it possible at the outset of our discussions to have before us the ideal that if—and this is a very large "if"—the Soviet Union are genuinely desirous of peace, here is the opportunity for a real structure to be created. The right hon. Gentleman, by exhibiting strength through the creation of this pact and the linking together of a variety of nations, has created one pillar. Another pillar exists in the shape of the Anglo-Soviet Pact, and it would he possible, were there absolute security on both sides, as may be the case already—it well may be—to build an arch over the two, and thus to create the real structure of international peace.
That is the ideal, I am sure, of all hon. Members on all sides of the House, and I should like to make it quite clear, in answer to the taunts of the hon. Member for Gateshead, who speaks with bitterness and with ignorance of the motives of other hon. Members who do not agree with him in politics, that it is not the aim of the Opposition simply to pile up armaments, to cut down the standard of living and to launch this country into another war. We all know that everything we believe in will be destroyed in the case of another war. We all know that all our efforts must be bent on the preservation of peace, and I have purposely drawn attention to this picture, which was lightly sketched, deliberately, in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, to indicate that we should bear before us the ideal of world peace, building on this structure within the United Nations and the structure of the Anglo-Soviet Pact.
Having before us this ideal, which I am sure all of us, especially those who
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have children who may be called upon to serve, must share very deeply at the present time, we must now examine the state of the world as it is. When we examine this pact against the history of the foreign policy of the variety of nations involved, we note first the definite change in the foreign policy of the United States of America and we are grateful to them for it. We have noted the statements of the Secretary of State on the subject of the prevailing force of the American Constitution—that is to say, there cannot be any automatic declaration of war on the side of the United States of America; and the provisions of the United States Constitution will continue to apply.
We have also noted the adherence of Canada to the pact, and I must say that on my recent visit to Canada I was impressed by the manner in which that country regards itself as the modern Belgium. We are, perhaps, conceited here. We think that wars will go exactly the same way as they did before, that armies will roll West; but in Canada they are fully aware of the modern and somewhat chilly conception that war may sweep upon them over the Arctic regions, and it is this new geo-political conception, if I may use long words, which we must keep in mind in approaching a pact of this sort. We have to revive the ancient conceptions of British foreign policy. Viscount Grey, who has been much quoted by the hon. Member for Gateshead, is almost out of date with his conception of the conduct of affairs, great man though he remains in history; we have to adapt ourselves—and I believe we are right in adapting ourselves through this pact—to the question of global security upon which our whole future must be based.
Looking at this pact in the world-wide aspect, what do we see? It may be that the ideal which I sketched at the opening of my remarks, namely, that diplomacy might link this pact with the Anglo-Soviet Pact, is incapable of achievement—and goodness knows, the story of the Soviet Union in the United Nations makes one doubt whether it can be achieved. There is, for instance, the use of the veto, which has made the use of this machinery necessary, and there is the difficulty we have had of working with the Soviet Union within the United Nations. It may well be therefore that the ideal cannot

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be achieved. If we look further afield, we find that, in fact, diplomacy has achieved security only in the Western sector or, if you like to call it so, the Atlantic sector, by the creation of this pact.
I should, therefore, like to direct the attention of the House for only a few minutes to the need for supplementing this pact by wider and broader arrangements. These wider and broader arrangements must flow first into the area of the Middle East because it is there, I am sure, that we have a danger point, partly due to the social unrest which exists in that area and to which I referred in previous speeches on foreign affairs, partly due to the strategic uncertainty, partly due to the position of Greece and partly due to the position of Turkey. I trust that we may have some assurance from the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply, that if we vote in favour of the ratification of this pact tonight, further unilateral action will be taken, with the support of the Government of the United States, to buttress the critical position in Greece, which may well be the weakest point in the whole diplomatic front at present, and to support the gallant determination of Turkey to stand up against any attack that may come her way.
Of course, I should like in the course of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, some little explanation of how this pact covers certain British territories. In paragraph 16, page 5 of the White Paper, which was very hurriedly produced just before the Debate, there is this phrase:
"In simple terms, the area covered"—
that is, the area covered by the pact—
"is the metropolitan territory of each party, and the sea and air space between them. Overseas territories of the parties outside the North Atlantic area are excluded …."
from the North Atlantic Pact. On the other hand, we find in Article 6 of the pact that the territories of any of the parties in Europe or North America is covered by the pact. It seems to me, in the short time we have had to compare these two documents, that there is some slight inconsistency between the two statements, and I should like to know whether the word "metropolitan," which is introduced in the covering White Paper, which was introduced only on 11th May, means that the territories of Gibraltar and Malta are covered by the
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pact, and whether they come under Article 6 as territory of any of the parties in Europe or North America. Perhaps, the right hon. Gentleman could give us an answer to that question, which is on the detailed interpretation of the pact itself.
Now we come to the vexed question of the inclusion of Spain. I really would not advise the House to devote very much further time to this question. The position, as I see it, is that we all agree with the analysis of Mr. Dean Acheson, which was read out with absolute and perfect accuracy by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge). I can say so because, for the sake of greater accuracy. I had obtained meanwhile a copy, knowing that this subject might be included in the Debate. The only thing the hon. Member did not read out in Mr. Dean Acheson's views of General Franco, with which in general I most warmly agree, was the concluding part of the telegram from Washington, datelined 11th May, from "The Times" correspondent. It says:
"Pressure for the resumption of diplomatic relations is growing stronger. The new Secretary of Defence. Mr. Louis Johnson, makes no secret of the fact that he considers the Atlantic Pact largely useless without Spain."
That is the concluding part of "The Times" telegram, hitherto unrevealed to an unsuspecting House. It is considered that we should resume diplomatic negotiations. I believe it is worth resuming them, because I believe Spanish pride would be better served in that way, and I do not think we need, in that way, necessarily prejudice our own political or moral beliefs in the right sort of Government. Following upon that, it may be possible to reach some future agreement. Meanwhile I will say that the most vital area by far is the Middle East, and that the Franco problem is not so urgent as that when we are considering this question of the pact.
In the few minutes that remain to me, I want to consider the question of the variety of organisations which are created by this pact. When we come to think of it, all these countries belong to some club or another. The first four, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg are Benelux countries and belong to the Brussels Treaty Powers; and the first six or seven belong to the United Nations organisation; nearly all are Marshall Plan members; and now

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we have under this treaty a new organisation or council set up.
It seems to me that if the Foreign Secretary or his representatives are to attend all the meetings of all the necessary councils set up under all the active diplomacy which has been undertaken in the last three years, we shall never have the honour of seeing them in this House, and that they will seldom be in the Foreign Office to conduct His Majesty's work in the way in which it ought to be conducted. I, therefore, ask whether in the political sphere the North Atlantic Treaty machinery will gradually eat up and take in the Brussels Pact, the Benelux and all the other organisations recently set up; whether in the sphere of economics the Government are going to concentrate on the O.E.E.C. machinery, and, perhaps most important, whether in the sphere of defence, we are going to enlarge the Western Chiefs of Staff Committee, or whatever it may be called, into the Atlantic Defence Council under Article 9 of the treaty.
It would seem to me that if the appropriations from the United States of America are to be of the size and importance which we hope, and which were referred to by more than one hon. Member on this side of the House this afternoon, then it is essential to organise and simplify the machinery so that we do not have duplication, and so that Ministers are not rushing from here to there but are really occupied with the jobs they ought to do. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will indicate that there is to be some simplification of the organisation, some fortification of defence and some organisation on the economic side, so that the whole machinery may be made to work.
My time is up, and I should like to summarise what I have said in a short compass in the following way. We have before us an historical pact which creates a complete development of the policies of the major nations involved. This pact is not yet more than an umbrella or covering. Underneath it we have to build a whole structure of security which will keep the peace which we all so ardently want and which we all must have. It is just possible that it will be possible to marry this pact with the agreement with the Soviet Union made for
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peace some years ago. What is, I am afraid, more probable is that the Foreign Secretary has before him one of the most difficult periods of British diplomacy.
I think that we should all make a great mistake if we were too optimistic tonight. We have been glad to welcome the lifting of the blockade and glad to notice the increase of strength that has come to us from the formulation of pacts. But the real testing time for this House and the nation lies ahead of us. If I may presage what is going to come, there may be disappointments unless we are very patient and very strong. I, therefore, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to take with him tonight the message that the House is behind him; that they expect him to remain tough, they expect him to remain patient, and they expect him thus to win through to ultimate peace, which we have not yet gained.
9.34 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): I think that my right hon. Friend would like me to begin by thanking right hon. and hon. Members in all quarters of the House for the congratulations which have been addressed to him this afternoon. If I may, I shall first answer three of the questions which have just been put to me by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler). He asked me about Greece and Turkey. If he will read my right hon. Friend's speech he will see that he referred especially to our great interest in the independence and integrity of Turkey and of Greece, and he will recall the declaration made recently by President Truman. I assure him that both those declarations stand.
He also asked me about Malta and Gibraltar. I confess that in the drafting of the White Paper a slight error has been made. The phrase which he quoted in simple terms should have read "broadly speaking" because technically, according to the language of the White Paper, Gibraltar and Malta should be excluded from operation of the pact, whereas in fact it is intended that they should be included. He asked about the multiplication of the international political and strategic machinery. Of course, it is becoming of great complexity. Nobody would deny that there

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is a danger, and a very evident danger, of overlapping. After all, this pact is not yet in force, and I have my right hon. Friend's authority to say that as soon as it is in operation, all these questions will be thoroughly considered, with a desire to cut out overlapping and to economise in time and money to the greatest possible extent; and I should like to give the right hon. Gentleman an assurance that the right thing will be done.
I now turn to the wider aspects of the Debate. The Leader of the Liberal Party, in his admirable speech, spoke of the Hague conferences, the League of Nations, and the United Nations. I think it is probably true to say that in times to come, when the historians discuss the first half of the 20th century, they will say that the outstanding feature was the repeated but unsuccessful attempts to organise a world community of States, and that the essential factor in that attempt was collective action to prevent or to restrain aggressive war. When people have thought that that was coming, all the rest of the international work has gone extremely well. When they thought it would fail, all the rest, in all the domains of human activity, has withered, perished or collapsed.
Now the Atlantic Pact is a measure of collective security. It is not what we hoped for when the San Francisco Charter was first signed. When the Coalition Government made the Charter, what were the hopes they had in view? They looked forward to long years of cordial co-operation among the great allies; they thought that the spirit of the war would survive into times of peace. They intended to carry out all the provisions of the Charter, which laid down that collective security should be organised, with military staff committees, national contingents, the beginning of an international air force, the organisation of economic sanctions, a system of control over international armaments, and a plan for the reduction of armaments in due course. All that is there, and they hoped and believed that that would be brought into actual fact before the veto was ever used. That was why the veto seemed tolerable at all, and we started to try to apply that system with full good will.
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The first job I had to do for this Government was in U.N.R.R.A. In U.N.R.R.A. we gave great help to the Soviet Union and to her allies; money—Dominion money and American money—poured in for their reconstruction, without political thought of any kind. We tried to solve the political problems. We offered treaties of peace based on the principles of the Atlantic Charter: no annexations, freedom for every nation to choose its own Government. We tried to deal with the great problems of war and peace. We asked the Soviet Union to sponsor, with us, the Atomic Energy Commission of the United Nations. The Americans put forward what I believe history will say was an astonishingly generous programme for the control of atomic energy—in fact, the greatest proposal of international public ownership, operation and control that the world has ever known.
Well, we know what followed. I spent long months working side by side with Molotov, Vyshinsky and Gromyko, and I think I know from my experience why all that ended in our bitter frustration—with the territorial annexations of the Soviet Union, the destruction of democratic institutions in the satellite States, and the international dictatorship to which those States were and still are subjected. There was Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Malaya, Greece, and the sabotaging of the Marshall Plan. That is the background and causation of the Atlantic Pact. The pact itself is a kind of phœnix—a symbol of buried hopes but hopes also that arise anew.
I want to deal primarily with the criticisms that have been made. I shall begin with criticism from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite about defence. They say that so little has been done that the signature on the pact is almost not worth while. I do not think they really meant that, though what they said sounded very like it. The pact is not ratified yet. This is not the time nor am I the Minister to debate defence. However, I shall say this in answer to what has been said—considering that it is only a few months since the Brussels Pact was ratified, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence and his Committee of Defence Ministers, together with Field-Marshal Montgomery and his colleagues, have made a great beginning. No European Power has shown any reluc-

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tance to come in and sign this pact with us, so that they must attach some importance to the pledges we have given.
I come now to criticisms of a different kind. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) asserted that the Russians were perfectly right to regard this as a pact against the Soviet Union.
Mr. Warbey: What I did say was that I could not see how they could avoid regarding it in that light.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman so regards it himself, but other people have misunderstood him in thinking what he said. I want to say with emphasis that this is not an old Power politics alliance against Russia, designed to encircle and in due course to crush her and her regime. That charge was made in January before the text of the pact was ever seen. The text of the pact is the complete and final answer. It is a pact against aggression and armed attack. The obligation arises when there has been an armed attack against a signatory. The phrase "armed attack" is taken from the Charter itself, which gives the right of self-defence. Unless there is an armed attack no obligation can arise. If a signatory itself started a war, then others would not go to the help of that attacker. There would be no obligation.
If anybody says that this is a pact directed against Russia it must be because they imply that Russia is contemplating, or may some day make an aggressive attack herself If my hon. Friend or anybody else has reached that conclusion, then their argument is not sound. Let anybody look at the list of signatories to the pact. Is it conceivable that Canada, Norway, or Denmark would have signed it, had it been with the intention of making an attack on Russia? Who is going to be the base for any aggressive attack against the Soviet Union? Denmark, Norway, who?
Mr. Emrys Hughes: We are.
Mr. Noel-Baker: No, because our people would never allow it. This pact is not a menace, and can never menace any nation that observes the peace. That is the answer to the contention that it violates the Anglo-Soviet Treaty of 1942. In that Treaty we bound ourselves not to join an alliance that was directed against the Soviet Union.
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If this Atlantic treaty were directed against the Soviet Union, we should have broken that Treaty. There were other things in that Treaty, amongst them things which we are entitled today to recall. Article 3 said that the high contracting parties declared that they would unite with other like-minded States to preserve and resist aggression in the postwar period. The signatories declared also that they would collaborate in the organisation of security and economic prosperity in Europe, and that they would act in accordance with the two principles of not seeking territorial aggrandisement and of non-interference in the internal affairs of other States. I would recall that my right hon. Friend said this afternoon that he hoped that some day we could recapture the spirit of 1942 and that some day we could start with that document and marry it to this new pact, and then, in my right hon. Friend's phrase, make a system of universal peace.
Some hon. Members, perhaps at least the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) would argue that what I have said is really worthless, because once we make an agreement of this kind wars produce themselves, governments can camouflage aggression, and between wars attempts to define aggression always fail. The hon. Member for Gateshead has put those ideas into writing. In the old days when we worked together, I knew him as a stormy petrel, always demanding the blood of an aggressor and asking for sanctions against those who broke the Covenant of the League. I find it hard to recognise him today as the lonely lover of peace. He has used this argument about the difficulty of defining aggression. I am very sorry that he has, because he knows as well as I do, that it was always used by those who wanted to do nothing about aggression. It was always used by those who were against collective security pacts. The truth is that there never was the slightest doubt about an aggressor, from Corfu in 1923, to Pearl Harbour in 1941 or to Mussolini in Africa or Hitler in Austria, Czechoslovakia, or Poland. We always knew who was the aggressor and we always shall. I hope that my hon. Friend will abandon that argument.
I turn to his further argument, which was developed at length this afternoon,

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that the Atlantic Pact violates Articles 53 and 51 of the Charter. I do not want to be more controversial than I need to be, but I think that my hon. Friend has read the Charter completely wrongly. If I understood his argument, it is that Article 53 imposes an obligation on the signatories of regional agreements not to take collective action in self-defence before the Security Council has decided what measures it will take.
Firstly, this is not a regional agreement within the meaning of Chapter 8. Secondly, Article 53 does not take away the right of collective defence under Article 51 for members of a regional agreement. How could it? The argument which the hon. Member developed about Article 51 is equally ingenious and equally fallacious. Under the Charter, the Security Council is responsible for stopping aggression. It is its duty to do so by taking adequate, immediate and effective measures to bring it to an end. Every member, permanent or elected, is bound to fulfil that duty, in accordance with the Charter. They are not free agents to do what they like, any more than a judge in a court is free to disregard the law.
It has been foreseen that although the Council was of good faith, the Council might need time to decide upon its measures. In the meantime, the attack on the victim of aggression would be going on. Remember Hitler's onslaught on Poland, and remember that aggression in future will he far more swift and terrible than that. It is evident that the aggressor must be resisted. Article 51 permits resistance by individual or collective self-defence. That goes on until the Security Council has decided on the measures which are required. When the Council has decided, the action under Article 51 either ceases or is absorbed in the general measures, but until the Council has decided, the action must go on; and it must be effective because, unless it is, the aggressor will triumph and the victim of aggression will be crushed.
That action must go on even if the Council cannot make a decision because there has been a veto, and it must go on however long the veto may be maintained because, again, unless it does the victim of aggression will be crushed and the Council—this is the hon. Member's own argument—will be unable to fulfil
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its duty of stopping aggression because the aggressor will already have completed his fait accompli.
If I understand the hon. Member's argument, it is in contradiction to the view of every lawyer I have consulted. His interpretation is that the purpose of Article 51 is not to make it easier to curb the aggressor but to curb those who are engaged in self-defence. He seems to think that Article 51 limits what may be done in resistance to aggressive armed attack. If we tried to apply his doctrine the Security Council would become the aggressor's greatest friend. It would protect the aggressor while he was destroying his victims one by one. If I understand it, it would even have prevented the British Commonwealth from standing together in 1939.
He said—this was the conclusion of his argument—that we were breaking up the collective system, and he said that I was now prepared to separate off the compulsory peaceful settlement of disputes from measures of collective security and reduction of armaments. Not at all. Of course every line of the Charter stands. It is expressly reserved not only in the Preamble but in Article 7. Of course we are bound by the methods of the Charter for the settlements of disputes, exactly as our claim about our destroyers in the Corfu Channel was settled by the International Court the other day; hut if we did not conic under Article 51 and if we did not adopt the principle of the Atlantic Pact, we should have no collective security in the Charter at all because it might be completely destroyed by the veto. Advice to that effect was given by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General as long ago as 1946.
I deny that we are doing anything to break up the United Nations and I want to deny the statement made by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) that Mr. Pearson, the very able and very distinguished Minister of External Affairs in Canada, said that Canada had given up belief in the United Nations. I am assured that that has no foundation. I know that Mr. St. Laurent and Mr. Pearson have both repeatedly declared that the pact is in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter and comes within the framework of Article 51, and that they have constantly said that it is their purpose through this pact to build up a system which will make

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the United Nations powerful and respected throughout the world.
My hon. Friend the Member for Luton asked me if I could give him some assurances about the pact. I cannot give him assurances that it is a regional agreement under Article 8 because it is not. I can give other assurances to him and to others of my hon. Friends. This pact is a stop-gap and a stop-gap only. As my right hon. Friend said again today, we want one world security system as soon as ever we can. We want it quite as ardently as any hon. Member here. We shall add other pacts to this one or merge it in a wider pact as the evolution of events may in due course permit. But we do believe that if we are having a collective pact at all, it should be as strong as possible in order that its restraining effect on the mind of the aggressor may be as great as possible.
We believe that our pact today will help us to abolish all war and that as we get security, so we shall be able also to reduce the burden of armaments under which the peoples groan. We have the same view of any future war and of the use of atomic weapons as that which hon. Members here today have expressed. The only way to be safe in war is to have no war; to stop it before it begins. We believe, as my right hon. Friend said,
that as a result of this pact, democracy is no longer a series of isolated units but a cohesive organism. But this, he said, is not the final end. We shall pursue with every endeavour and build up a truly universal United Nations. On that we agree very deeply with my hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Philips Price) who argued that economic co-operation and the abolition of poverty are essential steps towards that end.
This is not, as the Leader of the Opposition said this afternoon, an occasion for triumph. We are not the victims of illusion. Peace can never be built on sham, but this is one step forward and it is not a sham. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden began by asking how many of the signatories have ratified the pact. Ten days ago, with the support of the leaders of every party, Conservatives, Liberals and C.C.F., the Canadian Parliament ratified the Atlantic Pact. They were the first nation to do so. Tonight we shall be the second. I hope this may be symbolic of the part which the British Commonwealth will play in collective security, in the effort for a lasting peace and in the leadership of the nations of mankind.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 333; Noes, 6.

Division No. 138.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Bramall, E. A.

Davidson, Viscountess

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Albu, A. H.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Brown, George (Belper)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Delargy, H. J.

Alpass, J. H.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Diamond, J.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Dodds, N. N

Attewell, H. C.

Burden, T. W.

Donovan, T.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Butcher, H. W.

Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Ayles, W. H.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Drayson, G. B.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Drewe, C.

Baird, J.

Byers, Frank

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Baldwin, A. E

Callaghan, James

Dumpleton, C. W

Balfour, A.

Channon, H.

Duthie, W. S.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Chetwynd, G. R.

Dye, S.

Barton, C.

Cluse, W. S.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

Battley, J. R.

Cobb, F A.

Edelman, M.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

Cocks, F. S.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Collick, P.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F J.

Collindridge, F.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

Bennett, Sir P

Collins, V. J.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Benson, G.

Cook, T. F.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Berry, H.

Cooper, G.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Beswick, F.

Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Bevin, Rt. Hon. E. (Wandsworth, C.)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Ewart, R.

Binns, J.

Cove, W. G.

Farthing, W. J.

Blenkinsop, A.

Crawley, A.

Field, Capt. W. J.

Blyton, W. R.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F C.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Bottomley, A. G.

Crowder, Capt. John E.

Fletcher, W. (Bury)

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

Daggar, G.

Foot, M. M.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Daines, P.

Forman, J. C.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Fox, Sir G

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

McAdam, W.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Fraser, T (Hamilton)

McAllister, G.

Sargood, R.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

McGovern, J.

Segal, Dr. S.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Gibson, C. W.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Sharp, Granville

Gilzean, A.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

McKinlay, A. S.

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Gooch, E. G.

McLeavy, F.

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

Goodrich, H. E.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Simmons, C. J.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Skeffington, A. M.

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Skinnard, F. W.

Grenfell, D R.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Grey, C. F.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Snow, J. W.

Grierson, E.

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Steele, T.

Grimston, R. V.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Stokes, R. R.

Gunter, R. J.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

Guy, W. H.

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Studholme, H. G.

Hale, Leslie

Maude, J. C.

Sutcliffe, H.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Mellish, R. J.

Sylvester, G. O.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Mitchison, G. R.

Symonds, A. L.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Hardman, D. R.

Molson, A. H. E.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Moody, A. S.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Harris, H. Wilson (Cambridge Univ.)

Morgan, Dr, H. B.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Haworth, J.

Morley, R.

Teeling, William

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Head, Brig. A. H

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Lewisham, E)

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Herbison, Miss M.

Moyle, A.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P (Monmouth)

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Nally, W.

Thurtle, Ernest

Hobson, C. R.

Naylor, T. E.

Timmons, J.

Hollis, M. C.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Tolley, L.

Holman, P.

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Hope, Lord J.

Nicholson, G.

Viant, S. P.

Horabin, T. L.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

Wadsworth, G.

Houghton, A. L. N. D.

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Walker, G. H.

Hubbard, T.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Walker-Smith, D.

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W)

Nutting, Anthony

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

O'Brien, T.

Wallace, H. W (Walthamstow, E.)

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Oliver, G. H.

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Weitzman, D.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Irvine, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Palling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

West, D. G.

Janner, B.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. T. (Edinb'gh, E.)

Jay, D. P. T.

Pargiter, G. A.

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Parker, J.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Jenkins, R. H.

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

Johnston, Douglas

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Wilkins, W. A.

Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

Pearson, A.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Peart, T. F.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Pickthorn, K.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Keeling, E. H.

Ponsonby, Col. C E

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Keenan, W.

Popplewell, E.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Kenyon, C.

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Williams, J. L. (Kelv'ngrove)

Kerr, Sir J. Graham

Price, M. Philips

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Procter, W. T.

Willis, E.

King, E. M.

Pursey, Comdr. H.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

Randall, H. E.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Kinley, J.

Ranger, J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Lambert, Hon. G.

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Wise, Major F. J

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Reeves, J.

Woods, G. S.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Wyatt, W.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

York, C.

Leslie, J. R.

Robens, A.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Levy, B. W.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N)

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Lindgren, G. S.

Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Mr. William Whiteley and

Lipson, D. L.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Mr. R. J. Taylor.

NOES

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Gallacher, W.

Pritt, D. N.

Mr. Emrys Hughes and

Piratin, P.

Zilliacus, K.

Mr. Ronald Chamberlain.

Question put and agreed to

Resolved:
"That this House approves the North Atlantic Treaty signed in Washington on 4th April, 1949, relating to the promotion of stability and wellbeing in the North Atlantic area and to collective defence for the preservation of peace and security."

LOCAL WEATHER FORECASTS
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Popplewell.]
10.10 p.m.
Commander Maitland: It may seem rather impertinent, after the historic Debate which we have had today, to talk about the weather, but it is quite true that we spend a great deal of our time talking about the weather, and I therefore feel that it is rather useful to initiate this Debate. We are very proud of the vagaries of our British weather, and tonight I propose to try to suggest a way in which we might "debunk" the weather and give the people of our country an opportunity of knowing whether it is likely to rain or whether there will be fog, or to find out in some way the things which they really want to know.
I do this not only in the interests of the farmer, but of those of the father who wants to know whether it is going to he fine in order to take out his wife and children for a picnic. I am not referring to the experts—the R.A.F. men, the men flying aeroplanes or even the sailors at sea, for these people have opportunities of obtaining the very best meteorological information. I am referring to the ordinary man, who does not trust the information he gets. Anything he hears he regards with the utmost suspicion, and the reason for that is because the forecasts which he has the opportunity of reading in the newspapers or of listening to through the B.B.C. cover far too wide a range of territory and attempt to make forecasts for far too long a period ahead to make them as accurate as they might be. It is not the fault of the meteorologists; it is the fault of the way it is put over.
There is another point which I should mention, and it is that the forecast is made over a very large area and it is not possible to take into account the particular features of any local places, so
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that, though, in general, the forecasts may be accurate, it so happens that, in a particular area, when a man is going to take his wife and family to the sea, there may be rain, a thunderstorm or something else very unpleasant develop which he had not expected.
In order to get an accurate forecast for the ordinary man in the street, it would be necessary to have a large number of meteorological stations up and down the country, because I believe it is correct—and I have taken the trouble to check what I am saying with meteorologists—that both for a small area and for a limited period of time, meteorologists can give a very accurate forecast indeed. It so happens that there are meteorological stations all over the country, and there are on every aerodrome "Met." officers and their staffs. It would obviously be ridiculous and impracticable to allow the public to ring up the nearest aerodrome and ask what the weather was likely to be. There is a great shortage of "Met." officers, and I do not think that the Post Office either would look upon it as quite practicable from their point of view. It might cause the aerodrome lines to be completely jammed.
I do suggest, however, one way in which that information might be used. We might allot to each aerodrome in the country a certain number of telephone exchanges which are situated round about them. The next aerodrome would take other telephone exchanges so that the two groups would be adjacent, and each would have allocated to it a certain number of telephone exchanges. I suggest that, at the beginning of the telephone directory, there should be a code and a key, which might run from A to Z, and in which each letter would be linked with 10 numbers, so that we would get 260 alternatives.
I think it might work like this. Every four hours, or when he wanted to, or when it might be necessary, the "Met." officer in an aerodrome would take off his telephone receiver and give his own local exchange—that is to say, the exchange which normal outside subscribers would ring up if they wished to speak to the aerodrome—certain code letters and numbers. For instance, if he wanted to convey the information that the weather would be fine until six o'clock; that after that there would be a risk of showers until eight, and a certainty of rain before

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10, then that might come over, for example, as A5, B3, P4. After the "Met." officer had done that, he would have finished his work.
Then, I suggest, it might be the duty of that local exchange to tell the other exchanges in the vicinity which were being served by that particular aerodrome what the code figures and numbers were. It would be the duty of each local exchange in that area to see that the telephone operators knew what those code figures and numbers were. They would not have to know whether it was going to be fine or wet, but would simply know what were the letters and numbers. At that moment, anybody living in the area could take off their telephone receiver and ask for the weather, whereupon they would he given the code signs. The person inquiring would look up the signs at the beginning of his telephone book and translate them for himself.
There arc two main difficulties in this scheme. The first is the obvious one. I do not wish to make any reflection on the two Departments concerned but it is obviously extremely difficult for two Government Departments to work together in a matter of this kind where matters of divided finance are concerned. That is the first thing to overcome. But I think that, with a little good will and co-operation, that difficulty could be got over. Only last week-end, as a matter of fact, I was told by a former Assistant Postmaster-General that when "TIM" was first introduced, there was an enormous amount of opposition to it. People could not believe that anybody could want it, and it was generally regarded as a lunatic idea in the same way as some people may regard what I am saying now. But it worked surprisingly well, and produced an enormous amount of money for the Post Office. My suggestion would produce money every time anybody rang up to know what the weather was going to be, because they would have to pay 2d. for the call, which would be an extremely useful thing.
If the demand were high, and if it did put a strain on the Post Office, then, I suggest, it would show the real need for such a service. Obviously, at the beginning, people are not going to use it or trust it very much. I have lived under conditions where I had an accur-
2134
ate "Met." service, and I know how good and useful it can be. I also know that, in time, the people of this country would rely upon such a service to an enormous extent. On the other hand, if it were not used much there would not be much strain on the Post Office. I already know that there would be very little strain on the "Met." service. One would have to make the thing public. The local papers, I am sure, would cooperate in publicising the scheme. It could be tried out in a limited area, and could be advertised on the front page of the telephone book.
I want the Government to consider introducing this scheme for the area covered by one telephone directory. Lincoln and Peterborough are both fine cities, which I know well, and the area is suitable for the scheme I am talking about. If the Government would try the scheme out in one of the telephone directories, I think there would be almost no expense and, with good will and cooperation, we could at least see whether the scheme would work. Odd as it may sound, I think it would work. When I first thought of the scheme, I was very shy and thought it must be nonsense, and it was not until I talked it over with various "Met." people that I realised there might he something in it.
There is a second difficulty, and that is the difficulty of devising codes. It is a real difficulty. There are 260 alternatives and we should have to try to use them in the best possible way. I believe human ingenuity could over-come that difficulty We could either have 260 absolutely alternative statements or we could have some devoted to time, some to rain, some to the weather and some to adjectives or qualifying words of some sort. I do not for a moment want to be dogmatic about it; the main object of putting forward this scheme is to draw attention to the possibility of obtaining this information and to find whether the Government cannot see that the public get this information, which I believe can be provided. If some other method can be produced which is perhaps far more efficient without costing the taxpayer any money, so much the better.
There are some districts, of course, which would not benefit from the scheme. Parts of Wales and parts of Scotland obviously would not benefit and in those

2135
cases there would not be the advertisements on the outside of the books, for people in those districts would not be able to use the service. My political philosophy is, however, that it is not a good reason to refuse to provide some people with something good because of the fact that everybody cannot be provided with something good. I do not believe that is a real or proper reason.
I have one final point to make which is of a slightly different character. There is a certain amount of information about meteorology which the people can obtain. The Post Office Guide is one example, and His Majesty's Stationery Office recently published a little pamphlet, but there are few people who have Post Office Guides, sad as that may sound, and even fewer who have the various attractive little brochures provided by the Stationery Office. This sort of information would be better provided in the first pages of the telephone directory. I suggest that even if this scheme is, in other ways, nonsense, that part of it at least might be considered.
I shall listen with great interest to the answer of the Under-Secretary of State for Air. I do not think the Government can afford to miss an opportunity of giving the public something. There are few opportunities nowadays to give people something, and even the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not look gravely at this, because it would cost nothing. All it needs is a little cooperation and a little good will to make it work, and I believe the public would have a service which would be extremely useful.
10.25 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas): I welcome the interest of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) in meteorology, an interest which is shared by many people at the Air Ministry, because anyone interested in flying must automatically be interested in meteorology. I entirely agree with his major premise; the weather forecast would be much more accurate if it covered a small area and a short period of time. It is exceedingly difficult to forecast for a day for a wide area. Let us take an example. The B.B.C. in its morning forecast may speak of the South-East of England. That
2136
is an area stretching from Salisbury to Margate. Let us say that rain is forecast. Rain usually travels at about 25 miles an hour, so it may be raining at breakfast time at Salisbury, but it is not until late afternoon that the rain reaches Margate. It is clear, therefore, that the citizens of Margate would be far better served if there were a forecast for a smaller area and a shorter period of time; that is, if there were more forecasts for many smaller areas and at more frequent intervals. So the major premise and the most important point of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech I entirely accept.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman expressly said he was not referring to the expert user of weather forecasts, but to the man in the street. I shall deal shortly with the service we provide for the expert, and show why it is relevant. The professional user of weather forecasts is well served. It is part of my duty to be ex officio chairman of the Meteorological Committee on which are represented the Meteorological Office and the learned scientific societies, such as the Royal Society, and the professional users—the Air Ministry, the Ministry of Civil Aviation, the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Ministry of Transport, and so on. The Meteorological Office and the Post Office already work closely together. It is not nearly as difficult for them to do so as the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested. They work well together, and set a good example of co-operation.
The private professional user of weather forecasts, such as the farmers, can get detailed weather forecasts by telephoning one or another of the 15 meteorological offices scattered throughout the country. They can learn their telephone numbers from the Post Office Guide, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman said. The service for providing this information is available at those offices in ordinary working hours. At the Meteorological Office in London the information is available 24 hours a day seven days a week. The man in the street is not so well served. It is true that he has the telephone service which I have just mentioned, but he may not know about it.
Commander Maitland: Could not the fact be put into the telephone book?
Mr. de Freitas: I am coming to that point. The man in the street may not know about this service. Moreover, he is at a disadvantage that, if he is far away from the nearest meteorological office, he has to pay the cost of a trunk call. The Postmaster-General—and he regrets it—is in this position, that he is very reluctant to advertise the fact that this service is available, because the telephone system is already bearing extremely heavy burdens. He regrets, therefore, that he cannot give the details of this service in the telephone directories. I am sorry about it, but there it is.
Mr. John Morrison: How many pages would be required to set out this detailed information?
Mr. de Freitas: That is not the point. It is not the number of pages that this information would take. It is a question of the increase in the number of telephone calls. There is a very grave shortage of all equipment, and of men and women to operate, maintain and instal the equipment.
Commander Maitland: Is not this an example of "de Freitism" on the one hand and defeatism on the other?
Mr. de Freitas: No, it is not that. As is well known, we have a very long way to go to make up for the war period when work on the telephone services could not be undertaken.
There is one other field which I mention in passing. The man in the street has the radio broadcasts and the newspaper forecasts. We have already seen how difficult it is to provide satisfactory forecasts because of the large area covered and the long period of time. The problem is how we can help the country vicar's wife to know whether to have the sale of work in the vicarage garden or in the church hall? How can we help the hon. and gallant Member's constituent who is going for a picnic to Skegness and wants to know whether he is going to be braced by something other than the air there. That is the problem.
I welcome the hon. and gallant Member's assistance in trying to solve this problem. I only wish that we could adopt the scheme he suggests. May I say that we are constantly seeking ways to improve the service. For instance, we are working with the
2138
B.B.C. upon a scheme for televising meteorological charts and forecasts. It is clear, however, that the telephone is our best bet. That is why I welcome constructive suggestions such as the suggestions made tonight. But we must remember that not only are we short of meteorologists and therefore are reluctant to impose any more duties, however small, upon them, but the General Post Office—and this is the overriding difficulty—is still short of equipment.
In spite of that, all suggestions put to us, and I hope there will be many, will be examined. Plans will be prepared and we can try out the most promising of them when the General Post Office gives us the green light. It would be wrong of me to guess at the result of any investigations and tests which we may have. But I would say that at first sight it appears to me, and I think the hon. and gallant Member will admit it, too, that the code system seems a little complicated as it stands. I think that in the long run, and the hon. and gallant Member may agree with me, that we may be served best by a system of dialling "WEA" for "Weather," and getting on to a talking machine, in the same way as is done when one dials "TIM" for the talking clock.
I am grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for raising this matter. Too often the House and the country hears about meteorology and meteorologists only when they are being criticised. I have seen something of the great work which they are doing all the time. For instance, today, this very afternoon, here in London an agreement was signed by 11 countries for carrying on a scheme started in 1946 for having internationally run weather ships spread over the Atlantic. Meteorology is news only when it does not work or appears not to work. That is why I welcome this Debate today. I forecast that although these 11 countries met today and the continuation of the scheme for weather ships was agreed, not more than two national newspapers will mention a word of it, because it is not news. Not more than two national newspapers will mention a scheme in which international meteorologists get together to help not only the farmer, the fisherman, and those travelling by sea or air, but the ordinary man who wants to know when he leaves home in

2139
the morning whether he ought to take his umbrella or not.
Mr. J. Morrison: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down would he tell us what is the cost?
Mr. de Freitas: I forget the actual figure but it is given in the back pages
2140
of the Air Estimate for this year One of the appendices sums up the cost of the meteorological services.
Adjourned at Twenty-five Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

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  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOUNDARY COMMISSION (REPORT)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOUNDARY COMMISSION (REPORT)
  SEVERN BARRAGE TIDAL MODEL
  SEVERN BARRAGE TIDAL MODEL
  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Income Tax (Ex-Service Men)
  Income Tax (Ex-Service Men)
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Foreign Travel Allowances
  Foreign Travel Allowances
  British Subjects, France (Loans)
  British Subjects, France (Loans)
  CIVIL SERVICE (CLERICAL POSTS)
  CIVIL SERVICE (CLERICAL POSTS)
EMPLOYMENT
  Cotton Mills (Canteens)
  Cotton Mills (Canteens)
  Irish Workers
  Irish Workers
  Colliery Workers, Gloucestershire
  Colliery Workers, Gloucestershire
  Exchange, Liverpool (Officer's Leave)
  Exchange, Liverpool (Officer's Leave)
  Retired Officials, India
  Retired Officials, India
EDUCATION
  School, Beenham
  School, Beenham
  Music and Art Teachers
  Music and Art Teachers
  Technology
  Technology
  Infants Schools (Teachers)
  Infants Schools (Teachers)
  Swimming Instruction
  Swimming Instruction
  School Dentists
  School Dentists
  School Mistresses
  School Mistresses
  Sports and Prize Grants
  Sports and Prize Grants
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (PERSONAL CASE)
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (PERSONAL CASE)
AGRICULTURE
  Experimental Farms, Wales
  Experimental Farms, Wales
  Cattle Grids
  Cattle Grids
  ARMED FORCES (FAMILY PENSIONS)
  ARMED FORCES (FAMILY PENSIONS)
  SWEETS (DERATIONING)
  SWEETS (DERATIONING)
  BRITISH ARMY (UNMARRIED WIVES' ALLOWANCES)
  BRITISH ARMY (UNMARRIED WIVES' ALLOWANCES)
  UGANDA (COTTON SALES)
  UGANDA (COTTON SALES)
ST. HELENA
  Development Plan
  Development Plan
  Government Employees' Salaries
  Government Employees' Salaries
  NORTHERN RHODESIA (EUROPEANS)
  NORTHERN RHODESIA (EUROPEANS)
  COLONIAL SERVICE (VACANCIES)
  COLONIAL SERVICE (VACANCIES)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC ORGANISATIONS
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC ORGANISATIONS
  NAVAL ORDNANCE INSPECTION CORPS
  NAVAL ORDNANCE INSPECTION CORPS
  SUPPLEMENTARY PETROL ALLOWANCES
  SUPPLEMENTARY PETROL ALLOWANCES
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The EARL OF DROGHEDA on the Wool sack.
Prayers
3.5 p.m.
SWINDON CORPORATION BILL
Read 2a, and committed.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (WOOD LANE SITE) BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL
Read 2a, and committed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in the name of my noble friend the Leader of the House.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXI be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of postponing the Order for the House to be put into Committee on the Coal Industry Bill until after the Second Reading of the Representation of the People Bill [H.L.].—(Lord Ammon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

COMMONWEALTH TELEGRAPHS BILL
3.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, this Bill of which I am now moving the Second Reading represents a necessary stage in the postwar reorganisation of the Commonwealth system of telephone and telegraph communications, that vast system and network of cables and wireless which has done so much in the past to link trade and facilitate co-operation, both in peace and war, among all the members of the Commonwealth. The Bill represents one
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feature, and one only, in the working out of broad reorganisation plans thought out and agreed by all the Commonwealth Governments. Its full significance can therefore be grasped only in relation to the whole scheme of which it forms a part. But I will not weary the House, as I might otherwise do, by repeating a long chapter of past history. I would only ask your Lordships to cast your minds back to the Commonwealth Telecommunications Conference of 1945, which made the policy recommendations on which this reorganisation has been based, all of these recommendations being subsequently approved by the Governments concerned. They were later embodied in the Commonwealth Telecommunications Agreement of 1948, and for its detailed implementation that Agreement requires, among other things, the provisions of the present Bill.
The 1945 Conference, having in mind the need for public control of this vital Commonwealth interest—a need that became particularly obvious to all concerned with these matters during the war—recommended that the private shareholders in the overseas telecommunication services of the Commonwealth countries should be bought out by the various Commonwealth Governments. The Conference therefore accepted the broad principle of nationalisation which had been strongly urged by the noble Lord, Lord Reith, after his valuable tour of the whole Commonwealth towards the end of the war. If any single individual can be called the father and architect of the new conception of Commonwealth communications it is, as I am sure your Lordships will agree, the noble Lord, Lord Reith. He has deserved well of the Commonwealth, both on account of his past services and for what he is now doing in his capacity as Chairman of the Commonwealth Communications Council; and I am sure that he would wish those senior technical and administrative officials of the Post Office in the United Kingdom whose work has contributed to this happy solution to be included in a public acknowledgment.
The first step by this country in making effective the new Commonwealth partnership agreed at the 1945 Conference was taken in 1946, when the Cable and Wireless Act turned Cable and Wireless Limited into a publicly owned company. Since that date, other Commonwealth

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countries have gone a step further in the fulfilment of their share in the Agreement by nationalising their external telephone and telegraph services. But when the Commonwealth Governments agreed to acquire the communication assets of Cable and Wireless Limited, and of the local companies within their respective territories, they naturally left each Government to decide for itself the particular form in which it would operate its own external telecommunication services.
It would, I think, have been contrary to Commonwealth traditions to impose a common form of "national body" on all countries. In fact, while South Africa and New Zealand have already passed this new responsibility to their respective Postal and Telegraph Departments, and India has set up a body called "Overseas Communication Services" which is, in fact, under the Communications Department, Australia has set up a public corporation under Government control. Canada has not yet decided which type of management to choose. The decision in the United Kingdom was to make the Post Office, which already operated our other overseas telephone and telegraph services, the national body for the purposes of Commonwealth communications in this country. This important decision was taken while I was serving at the Post Office, and I can assure your Lordships from personal recollection that it was determined entirely on the grounds of technical and administrative efficiency, and on economy in operation, in accordance with the best available technical advice, and that politics did not enter into the minds of any of those who were concerned with the matter.
One of the two main purposes of this Bill is to give practical effect to this decision—namely, that the services and property of Cable and Wireless Limited in the United Kingdom should pass to the Post Office, and that its staff in the United Kingdom should join the ranks of Post Office employees. I would remind the House that the company will continue, as at present, to hold its assets overseas, both in foreign countries and in the Colonies, and also its submarine cables, and to operate its services overseas. The present Bill, which I am commending to your Lordships, will make no change, I think, in the existing relationship outside the
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United Kingdom between the Post Office and the company.
The other main purpose of the Bill is to carry out the vital recommendation of the 1945 Conference about the setting up of a Commonwealth Telecommunications Board as a further stage in the growth and development of the existing Commonwealth Communications Council. The functions of the Board will be rather wider and more important than those of the Council, and will include advice to Commonwealth Governments on maintenance and planning for their telecommunications system as a whole. The Bill, therefore, proposes to establish the representative central body of this partnership, the Commonwealth Telecommunications Board, as agreed by all the partner Governments. Besides the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Canada, Ceylon and Southern Rhodesia are already members of the Commonwealth Communications Council, while Pakistan sends an observer to its meetings and is now considering whether to become a full member. Since 1945, the functions of the Commonwealth Communications Council have in practice expanded as compared with those which it exercised before the war, and it has been advising Commonwealth Governments on all aspects of their overseas telecommunications. The Bill will, in fact, only regularise what has already become an accepted and most successful form of Commonwealth co-operation. It puts the hall-mark of legal approval on a system which has been tried out and has worked well.
May I now turn to the more important provisions in the contents of the Bill? It starts with an abnormally long recital, as your Lordships will observe, which gives that part of the immediate historical background essential for a thorough grasp of what is there proposed. Clause 1 establishes the Commonwealth Telecommunications Board with a constitution and functions as set out in detail in Part I of the First Schedule. This clause goes on to say that Part I of the Schedule shall be supplemented by Part II which defines "national body" to cover whatever form of public ownership a partner Government may decide to set up. The object of Clause 2 is to give flexibility to this new piece of Commonwealth machinery, to make it adjustable in times

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to come, by enabling the Postmaster-General to give effect to any changes in the Commonwealth Telecommunications Agreement desired by all the partner Governments. Clause 3 authorises the Postmaster-General to pay the United Kingdom's share of the Board's expenses. By Clause 4, subject, of course, to a contemplated agreement with Cable and Wireless Limited, the company's land and other assets in Great Britain, will, with a few exceptions, be vested in the Postmaster-General in April next year. Clause 5 of the Bill provides financial powers for the acquisition by the Post Office of the company's property in this country.
Clauses 6, 7 and 8, deal with the pension and compensation rights of the company's staff. The total staff employed by the company is nearly 13,000, and of these nearly 5,000 are serving in this country. After the Bill has become operative, the great majority of its employees in the United Kingdom will be taken over by the Post Office. This transfer of staff does not, of course, require legislation in itself, but statutory provision is needed for dealing with pension rights; Clause 6 requires regulations to be made for this purpose. The intention is to guarantee the existing pension rights of the staff taken over, and the specific arrangements under existing pensions schemes will be agreed with the staff organisations. Clause 7 provides for the making of regulations for the payment of compensation to individuals who may be displaced or who, on transfer to the Civil Service, may suffer diminution of their earnings or pension rights. We hope that in practice this provision will not be necessary, but it will safeguard the position of existing employees of the company taken over by the Post Office. Clause 9 gives the Postmaster-General authority to introduce a new revenue-pooling scheme with the company. It is actually an extension of the existing arrangement, and is designed to avoid harmful competition between the cable and wireless services of the United Kingdom by removing all financial inducement to the Post Office or the company to use one method rather than the other.
My Lords, this is, I think, a noncontroversial Bill. It is not a major Bill, but it is a Bill of some considerable importance,
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both to us and to our friends in the Commonwealth family. I can without any hesitation at all commend this measure to your Lordships for your approval, and I beg to move that it be now given a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
3.19 p.m.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords, I am indebted to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for his clear exposition of this Bill. I have not many observations to make upon it. The noble Earl has sketched something of the history of the communications. The start which the Eastern Telegraph Company made back in 1872 was responsible for our emerging with a lead in long-distance telegraph cables—a lead which we still hold to-day. The Conference of 1929 merged Commonwealth overseas communications in what we came to know as Cable and Wireless Limited. By the Act of 1946, the communications for which the company were responsible were submerged in Government ownership. Clauses 1 to 3 of this Bill, as the noble Earl has pointed out, deal with the Natioanal Telecommunications Board, and I think they give it the flexibility which he claims.
I will not labour the question as to whether or not the Post Office is the correct national body to handle these responsibilities—perhaps "body" is not the right word, because by this piece of legislation the Post Office has the whole of the work of what used to be the body, whilst the overseas arms and legs continue to vibrate under their own volition. I very much hope that the penny-a-word Press telegraph rate will be maintained. It was a bold, imaginative step on the part of the old private enterprise Cable and Wireless Company. It has proved a powerful and excellent influence in spreading news throughout the Empire. I sometimes feel that the shade of Sir Rowland Hill must think rather ruefully of what has happened to the penny post. I hope that the penny-a-word Press telegraph rate will not be a casualty, too.
I have some misgivings about Clauses 6, 7 and 8, which the noble Earl has kindly defined for us. By Clause 6 the Postmaster-General has complete power over pension funds and by subsection (4) of Clause 6, a board of referees, or a single referee, may be set up to hear

595
any disputes and petitions from aggrieved people that may be brought to his notice. That is excellent, but the aggrieved person may find himself further aggrieved in the case (which he is bringing) because he finds himself facing a financial disadvantage. I think it is only fair that provision should be made in this Bill for reimbursing such a person for all the further financial disadvantage that he suffers in attending the tribunal. Provision can easily be made to withhold that compensation if his claim is merely frivolous. Clause 8 makes provision for an allowance to be paid to the referee, or board of referees, and to any witnesses who may be called, but makes no provision whatever for paying the expenses of an aggrieved person who is laying his petition.
Let us imagine a hypothetical case of the kind that might easily arise. An aggrieved person comes down to London from some northern part of England, say Northumberland, to put his case, bringing with him one single material witness. They travel down in the same railway carriage. Both are put to fairly considerable expense. The witness gives his evidence, and is reimbursed for everything it has cost him; but not so the unfortunate aggrieved person. That seems to me very strange, and on Committee stage we shall put down an Amendment which I hope the Government will see their way to accept.
In Clause 7 the Postmaster-General, with the concurrence of the Treasury, has power to compensate all those who have suffered loss of employment or diminution of earnings. That is very right and proper, but I do not think it is enough to say, as the Bill does, merely that he has the power to do that, that he can do it. I think there should be concrete statutory provision that he should. In the 1946 Act, which nationalised the Cable and Wireless Company, certain assurances were given to the then employees that they would not suffer. Certainly those who more recently joined, and those in the lower brackets of salary, have not done too badly. But some of those who have served far longer, and have reached a higher bracket, have suffered. It is a poor reward for a man who joined that company many years ago, and who saw himself with his foot on what he thought was the bottom rung
596
of the ladder, which he was determined to climb to the topmost rung in the course of a lifetime, suddenly to find that by a piece of legislation he is on a snake instead of a ladder. I have no more observations to make at this stage of the Bill and, subject to the reservations I have made, I can say that we on this side of the House do not oppose the Bill, and hope that it succeeds.
3.25 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, may I associate myself with what the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, has said? This Bill is the logical outcome of a series of negotiations, of which perhaps the happiest of all the elements is the constitution of the Imperial Telecommunications Board. In its own way that in itself is a very great achievement; it is one further link among the Commonwealth countries. In introducing the Bill the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, referred to the fact that in their external communications services all the individual members of the Commonwealth had sought their own solution of the method to be adopted. That is right, and in the tradition of the development of our Commonwealth relations. But the noble Earl used one word which I think must have been a slip of the tongue. If I understood him aright, he said that it was no part of our wish to impose any particular solution to this problem on any of the Overseas Dominions. I think the word "impose" must have been a slip of the tongue, because we have no right, and certainly no desire, to impose any solution an any overseas Dominion. I feel sure that what the noble Earl intended to say, if I may put the words into his mouth, was that we did not seek to establish a uniform system which suited us, but preferred to let them have a freedom of choice.
3.27 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am obliged to the House and to both the noble Lords who have spoken for the approval which has been given to this Bill. I will gladly deal on the Committee stage of the Bill with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, on Clauses 6, 7 and 8, and I am obliged to him for giving me notice of the considerations which he has in mind. I think that possibly the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, misunderstood what I said. I stick to the word "impose" in

597
the context in which I used it. I think he will see that what I meant was that the Commonwealth Conference did not seek to impose on the different Commonwealth countries which were there represented any common, uniform national form of body. The choice of national body was deliberately left to the different Governments and Parliaments concerned.
On Question, Bill read 2a.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
3.28 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 9 [Minister's right to certain tenants' compensation on giving up requisitioned land]:
LORD CRANWORTH LORD CRANWORTH moved to add to the clause as a new subsection:
"( ) Without prejudice to the right of the person to whom possession is or was given up to claim compensation for damage under Section 2 (1) (b) of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, the Minister shall be liable and shall be deemed always to have been liable in the circumstances hereinbefore referred to for the payment of compensation for dilapidation, deterioration or damage under Section 58 of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1948."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment deals with a matter which I raised on Second reading. Under Clause 9, when he gives up a farm, the Minister retains the tenant's right to compensation. It did not seem to me to contain anything which provided for the possibility of compensation to the owner. The noble Earl, Lord Huntington, said he thought that there was compensation right, and that he would look into the matter. He very kindly wrote to me, and explained this, I wrote back, and said that I thought perhaps I would introduce an Amendment at a later date so that he could make public his views. Since that time those on whose behalf I move this Amendment, the Central Landowners' Association, who have been rather worried about this point have taken counsel's opinion on it. I am afraid that counsel's opinion is not entirely in agreement with the noble Earl, because they say that a landlord's right to counterclaim is provided in the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939; but that does not give as full rights of claim to the landlord as are provided by Sections
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58 and 59 of the Agricultural (Holdings) Act, 1948. It is from that Act, as I understand it, that the Ministry derive their claim for tenant right.
So far as I am concerned, while the present Minister of Agriculture and the noble Earl occupy their respective positions, I am entirely satisfied with the assurance that the noble Earl has given. But no one occupies those positions for ever; changes take place, sad though they are. It might even be that a wicked Tory Government will come back and, as is their custom, start grinding the faces of the poor land owner; and they might take advantage of this lapse in the Bill to grind them still deeper! Therefore it seems to me that if there is any doubt—and it appears that there may be—some advantage would be gained by the acceptance of this Amendment. I therefore beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 20, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Cranworth.)
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, this is a small but complicated pant. I hope to be able to show the noble Lord who moved the Amendment that his worries are unfounded. The position under Clause 9 concerns only the Minister in connection with requisitioned land which the Minister is giving back to the land owner. It was decided that it would be only fair for the Minister to have tenant right when he gave up the land—in other words, to get back from the land owner the value of cultivations, and so on, which had been carried out. I think the noble Lord agrees that that is quite justified.
The doubt in the noble Lord's mind is whether the land owner can claim compensation for dilapidation or deterioration of the land while it was requisitioned and in the hands of the Minister. I suggest that that is covered by the wording of the clause. Clause 9, page 7, at line 36, says:
"… in all respects as if the appropriate Minister had, throughout the period of such possession, been in possession by virtue of a contract of tenancy …"
As the noble Lord knows, when tenant right is claimed, the custom is always to set off against the amount claimed for tenant right any deterioration of the

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land, whatever it may be. We consider that this will apply if the Minister is regarded as having had a contract of tenancy. Therefore, any deterioration of the land will be set off against the amount claimed for tenant right. To substantiate that even further, I may say that in every case where land has been given back and in which there has been a claim for deterioration of the land, we have automatically conceded that claim against tenant right. I can assure noble Lords opposite that my right honourable friend the Minister intends to adopt that procedure in any new case that arises.
There is a final point which I think is important. Even if it is argued that there is some doubt about this clause (we do not think that is so; I am advised that the situation is completely safeguarded), the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, will still operate. This applies to all land, whether agricultural or not. If noble Lords will look at Section 2, (1), (b), of the Act they will see that compensation payable under that Act is to be
"a sum equal to the cost of making good any damage to the land which may have occurred during the period for which possession thereof is so retained."
So even if there is any doubt under this clause—there should not be—the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, still operates, and the landlord could apply for full damages of any kind under Section 2, (1), (b). I hope that will satisfy the noble Lord that this Amendment is really unnecessary.
LORD CRANWORTH: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his long and careful explanation. The only part of it with which I was not quite satisfied was that I understood him to say that in cases of this sort the Ministry were already paying for dilapidations. To my knowledge, the Ministry were already claiming tenant right, and getting it, long before this Bill came into being. But that is neither here nor there. I have heard the noble Earl's very kind explanation, and I shall have it to refer to in future should anything happen.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much for his answer, but there is one point which is not quite clear. He referred to Section 2
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(1) (b), of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939. I think we are all clear about the questions dealt with there; it deals with definite damage. But there is also the question of deterioration of the land, which really comes under Section 2 (1) (c), dealing with tenant right. I do not think the noble Earl in any part of his reply dealt with that matter. There is the question, for instance, of fouled land, and so on. I do not think that is covered by Section 2 (1) (b). Could the noble Earl give us a full assurance on that point?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, I can give noble Lords an assurance on that point. There is one matter I should like to clear up. The whole trouble has arisen here because when the land was requisitioned in the first place no provision was made for the Minister to get tenant right when the land was given up. One must confess that tenant right has been claimed by the Minister without the statutory safeguard. This Bill merely regularises the position. All this clause does is to say that the Minister has the right to collect tenant right, and it in no way nullifies any of the rights of the landlord for claiming back for dilapidations, or, as the noble Earl has just said, for deterioration of the land by fouling, damage to cropping, and so on. I hope that will satisfy noble Lords.
LORD CRANWORTH: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that explanation. In view of the fact that I shall shortly be in a position to procure a copy of Hansard containing his reply, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THY LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
House adjourned during pleasure, and resumed by the Lord Chancellor.

COAL INDUSTRY BILL
3.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 1:
Alteration of composition of National Coal Board
(3) The Minister may appoint one of the members of the Board to act as deputy chair-roan thereof in addition to the member appointed by him under subsection (5) of section two of the principal Act so to act.
LORD RENNELL LORD RENNELL moved to add to subsection (3):
"Provided that at least one of the persons appointed so to act shall be a person having experience of the coal-mining industry."
The noble Lord said: The Amendment which stands in my name and the names of certain other noble Lords is a simple and modest Amendment, which seeks to make it obligatory that at least one person on the Coal Board shall have had some experience of the coal industry. That is asking for very little and, indeed, for so little that I cannot believe the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, will fail to meet us on the point. The principal Act lays down that the Beard is to be composed of persons who
"shall be appointed … from amongst persons appearing to him"—
that is the Minister—
"to be qualified as having had experience of, and having shown capacity in industrial, commercial, or financial matters, applied science, administration, or the organisation of workers."
In that Act, the list of persons from which the Board are to be selected does not include "persons in or having knowledge of the coal industry."
In subsequent Acts such a category was included—in the Electricity Act by Amendment, and in subsequent Acts by inclusion in the original draft. It seems to me elementary that, in dealing with this major industry which in this country is under a single control, provision should
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be made that experienced persons in that industry should be included. What we on this side of the House mean by "experienced people," is people who have grown up and have for many years been intimately associated with the industry, and not people who, in the course of the last two and a half years, have acquired that experience.
It is perfectly true—and I, for one, would agree with what Mr. Shinwell said at that time—that people with administrative experience are required in the administration of this industry. But in addition to ordinary administrative experience, direct personal experience of the trade or industry seems to me to be essential. As the Government have seen fit to introduce certain Amendments in the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House, altering the possible coin-position in numbers of the Board, this seems an appropriate moment to require that at least one person with experience or the coal mining industry should be included. If, as appears reasonable, that should be extended to more than one person, I, for one, would be glad to accept an Amendment to the Amendment to that effect. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 11, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Rennell.)
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD MACDONALD OF CWAENYSGOR): I can assure your Lordships that I am exceedingly pleased that the first Amendment with which I have to deal in your Lordships' House is one which recognises the valuable experience and capacity of those engaged in the coal industry. I am only sorry that for years past this was not recognised. I am quite satisfied that if it had been, the history of the industry would have been far happier. I am quite satisfied also that no National Coal Board can function efficiently without some members of that Board having had experience in the coal industry. That was recognised by the first Minister of Fuel and Power responsible for nationalisation, and it is also recognised by my right honourable friend the present Minister. Out of the nine members—eight full-time and one part-time—there are at the present moment four who have had experience in tie coal industry. Therefore, there is no difference between the two sides on this issue. No Coal

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Board will do the job as it ought to be done who have not the right connection with the coal face, where the coal is got, and that right connection will never be obtained without men on the Board who can speak from personal experience. I would not confine it to the managerial side, because there are those who have not been on the managerial side who could make a very valuable contribution to any Coal Board.
Having said that, and looking at this Amendment, I feel that to accept it would hardly do justice to the Coal Board. The Amendment reads:
"Provided that at least one of the persons appointed so to act shall be a person having experience of the coal-mining industry."
We are not told anything about the quality of the experience or the length of the experience. An individual who has for some unknown purpose spent six months in the manager's office could qualify under this Amendment. I am quite sure the noble Lord did not intend that and, therefore, the wording of the Amendment is such that I could not possibly accept it. As provision has been made—and I would say adequate provision—I trust the noble Lord will not press the Amendment. I do not feel that I can give an undertaking to-day that for ever more the percentage of those experienced on the Coal Board shall stand as it is to-day, but I am quite certain that no Minister responsible for appointing the Board will ever overlook the need for having on it those experienced in the industry. For that reason, since we are assured of having at least one—and I should say more than one—I hope the Amendment will not be pressed to a Division.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am rather sorry that the Minister has taken this line. I thought that the beginning of his speech was quite admirable, when he said that of course we must have on the Coal Board people who really understand the coal industry. I naturally thought he was going on to say: "And I therefore accept the proposal that at least one of the persons appointed shall have experience." I have a proposition to make. I really thought that this was a matter upon which we were all agreed. The particular proposal here is that one of the new part-time directors shall be a person with mining experience. I can conceive that,
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among the part-time directors the Minister is empowered to appoint under this clause, he may want people of rather special part-time qualifications. I feel sure that my noble friend who moved the Amendment would be quite content with an undertaking (and an Amendment can easily be moved as a manuscript Amendment or put down on Report) that of the whole Board—which will in future consist of any number up to eleven—there shall be at least three people who have practical knowledge of the coal mining industry. We are legislating for all time, and I hope that will be accepted.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Let us be clear what the Amendment means. There may be misunderstanding.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I said exactly what the Amendment means. The Amendment says that one of the three part-time people it is now sought to appoint must be a man of practical experience of the coal trade. What I suggest now, and what I am sure is the aim of this Amendment, is that we should consider the Coal Board as a whole—that is to say, the existing eight members, plus the three whom we are proposing to give to the Government. It is not, I am sure, too much to ask that the Government should give us an undertaking that they will accept the provision that at least three people of this Board of eleven shall be people who know something about the coal trade.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Let me be quite clear about this. I have read this Amendment as it is down on the paper. Let me read it out:
"Provided that at least one of the persons appointed so to act shall be a person having experience of the coal-mining industry."
That is to be added to subsection (3) of Clause 1. If I am told that all that it means is that one of the part-time members shall be a person who has had experience, I am prepared to give the Amendment consideration, though I am not saying that I can accept it. All I can promise is that between now and the Report stage it shall be considered.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): If I may say a word here, I think that that would be the wise course. It is inconceivable to me that any

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Minister would appoint these members to the Board without having at least three who knew something about the industry. I can well understand the slight hesitation on the part of the Minister to accept this Amendment, because he may feel, by implication, "The House must think I have been acting like an absolute fool." I took the Amendment in its present form in the same way as did the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton; and if there is a misapprehension it may be due to me. I am not sure that it does not mean that one of the deputy chairmen must have had experience of the coal-mining industry. That is not what the noble Lord meant, but if he looks at the words again he will see that that may seem to be their meaning. I discussed the matter with the noble Lord yesterday, and it was not until I looked at the Amendment again that it seemed to me that that was not the meaning. I suggest that we leave this matter for the time being. That would give us an opportunity to get together and consider what the Amendment means, and whether we cannot reach some compromise which satisfies everybody.
LORD RENNELL: I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Viscount says. My intention was only to ensure that among the categories of person from whom the Minister should choose shall be included people who have experience of the coal-mining industry. If the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, can assure me that an Amendment will be put down, in such form as he considers proper, I shall be happy to withdraw my Amendment at this stage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I would rather put it this way, if I may, since the Minister is a little hesitant: He does not doubt that it would be foolish to say that there should not be at least three persons on the Board who have experience, but he is a little reluctant to have the matter put down quite in this way, since it is so obvious. Without having consulted the Minister, I would rather not commit myself further at the present time.
LORD RENNELL: Something analogous has been included in the other nationalisation boards, and I cannot see why the Minister should hesitate to include such a provision in this Bill. However, on the assurance given by the noble
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and learned Viscount, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Extension of area within which the Board's activities may be carried on.]
VISCOUNT SWINTON VISCOUNT SWINTON moved to add to the clause:
"Provided that before the Board carry on any of the activities referred to in paragraphs (b), (c), (d) or (e) of subsection (2) of section one of the principal Act in any country or place overseas the carrying on by them of that activity in that country or place shall have been approved by resclution of each House of Parliament."
The noble Viscount said: We come now to a matter of cardinal importance in this Bill, on which I hope the Government will be equally ready to meet us. Your Lordships will remember that the principal Act which this Bill seeks to amend definitely prohibited the National Coal Board from engaging in overseas activities, the chief of which would be the mining of coal and, even more important, merchanting and bunkering. Clause 2 of this Bill now seeks to give the Coal Board an unlimited power to do what, under the Act passed by Parliament two years ago, they are prohibited from doing. It was said that that was an oversight. But I am bound to say that I sat here on these Benches all through the discussions on the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill, and I do not think it was an oversight at all. I can say with complete certainty that if it had been sought under that Bill to give the National Coal Board power to engage in the marketing and bunkering business overseas, I would certainly have moved, and, I hope, have carried your Lordships with me, to reject any such provision from that measure.
It is admitted that this business to-day is being admirably done by experienced and efficient merchants, with world-wide organisation and good will. The noble Lord who introduced the Bill paid a high tribute to their efficiency, competence and value. It was said, I think by him and other speakers, that the Coal Board had no desire to supplant but wanted these powers only as an insurance; that they would not dream of exercising the powers except in case of need. I was a little taken in by that at the moment, though I did not

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think it a good reason for giving the powers, for no proof of need had been advanced. But when I came to look up, as I have done, the Minister's own speech, I felt that if insurance was all that was sought, my Amendment would exactly meet the case. But the responsible Minister, the Minister of Fuel and Power, said something different. On the Third Reading of this Bill in another place, on March 28, the Minister said (column 948):
"I would only add one or two remarks in reply to the comments by the honourable Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles). All we ask is that the Coal Board should be allowed themselves to compete as traders in the world market, and I cannot see why honourable Members opposite are so terrified of the competition of the National Coal Board. If the Board are as inefficient as some honourable Members like to make out, there need not be any anxiety about it whatever.… This may inspire a little healthy competition, but I am quite certain that the result will be thoroughly beneficial to the British export trade …"
There may be two opinions about that! But this power is not wanted as insurance; it is wanted, as the Minister himself says, in order that he may go "barging into" this export trade all over the world. That is his intention; and if your Lordships pass this clause in the present form, you will be giving him power which was denied to him after consideration by Parliament.
If we are now asked, two years after we passed an Act of Parliament denying those powers, to grant them it should not be only because some theoretical argument has been advanced. But in fact not a single practical argument has been advanced for changing Parliament's decision. I submit to your Lordships that there are overwhelming arguments against it. After all, the Coal Board have a big enough job on their hands at the moment. They have taken over, on a scale upon which no corporation anywhere, in the world has ever attempted, the production and treatment of coal. In addition to that, they have these other activities, such as coke ovens, land owning and all the rest of it. Surely it is enough of a task for that Board to produce coal in sufficient quantities, of good quality and at a price which home industry can afford and which foreign buyers will be prepared to pay. No one has ever before attempted a business on this scale. I appreciate the difficulties which the Coal Board have had, but I am
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bound to say that I do not think that hitherto they have made a conspicuous success of their primary job of getting this coal.
But whatever views we may hold about the nationalisation of domestic production, I do not think that anyone—certainly anybody with any practical experience—will deny the very great risks and handicaps which arise when a Government, or a Government agency, begin to engage in foreign trade. I leave aside the question of experience, although I would remind your Lordships that in the old days there was hardly any colliery company which, with all its experience, found it good business to go into this trade and to try to supplant the merchants. The colliery companies found that their proper job was getting coal. But the moment a Government engage in this kind of business, there is a tendency for them to be "shot at" on political grounds. Any of us who has had experience in government knows that that is so; and the present Government must know it. They stand to be attacked in two ways. They are attacked by foreign sellers who are their competitors. It is alleged—and I have heard it said over and over again where Governments are concerned—that political pressure is being brought to bear in order to obtain a contract, that the Government are subsidising the sale of their own produce. Those charges may be completely unfounded but, when a Government are in business, the fact that the charges are unfounded does not stop such charges being made. Once those charges are made, they impair the whole of the foreign relations. The Government are also always liable to political pressure by foreign Governments who are the buyers, or whose nationals are the buyers, of whatever the commodity is—in this case, coal. When they are in the business as a Government, they are pressed to make, not a commercial bargain but a political bargain.
The Leader of the House will know this well—and I challenge him to deny that what I say is true. It is said to-day: "Well, if you are trying to get a low price out of us as a Government in what you buy, we ask you to sell to us at a low price." In all this haggling which goes on in those contracts which, unfortunately, Governments are now engaged in negotiating, they find at every turn

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that not only are they up against the ordinary commercial difficulties but they have every piece of political ammunition and weapons brought to bear against them. It is perfectly natural that it should be so. Therefore, on the broadest grounds I say—and this has nothing to do with domestic nationalisation—that it is extremely unwise for Governments and Government agencies to go into international trade, unless there is some overriding reason which compels them to do it.
Is there any such reason here? I submit that there is not a vestige of reason. The export trade in coal has been built up largely, I would say almost entirely, by the efficiency of British merchants all over the world. They have sunk vast sums in establishing stores, bunkering stations, agencies and facilities. They have formed subsidiary companies in foreign countries, in accordance with the local laws; they have often taken into partnership foreign nationals—a thing which no Government agency would be permitted to do in a foreign country, but which an individual merchant is welcome to do. All that they have done. They have built up a world-wide good will by studying and meeting an infinite variety of their customers' needs.
As far back as 1916, the United States Government appointed a Federal Commission to consider and report upon foreign trade and, in detail, upon the coal trade. They reported that this combination of facilities, good will and what our American friends call the "know-how," which the British merchants have established and operated all over the world, was the chief reason for the success of our export trade in coal. These merchants not only know how to meet the varied requirements of foreign customers, how to arrange all the shipping for them, to arrange the loading and unloading but they put vast sums into these loading and unloading facilities. They also deliver the coal; and they deliver the coal that the consumer wants, where he wants it and when he wants it—that is, if they can obtain it from the Coal Board to-day: they used to have no difficulty. More than that, the merchants have been in the habit of carrying large stocks at their own risks, both for bunkers and for local requirements, so that they can supply the small buyer all over the world.
They do another thing: they give credit. In the Baltic it was quite common for the merchants to supply the coal before the Baltic froze, and to give credit—though they gave credit wisely. I remember that Lord Cunliffe, the wise old Governor of the Bank of England, was once asked, "How do you know a good bill from a bad one?" He said, "By the smell." They knew who were the people to whom to give credit. I dare say they had a bad debt or two, but not many. That is something which a Government organisation have difficulty in doing. They do not know where to give credit. The moment they discriminate, they are "shot at" by the Government of a particular foreign national to whom they do not give credit. The ordinary merchant is not in that difficulty. It is recognised that, as between him and the foreign trader, he gives or withholds credit entirely on the merits of the case. These merchants all over the world have taken exchange risks in the past, and will be ready to do so again.
Moreover, that was a world-wide organisation. I think we are unique in this—it applies to-day to coal and oil—that you can arrange in London with a merchant to bunker a ship, British or foreign, for a voyage round the world; and that ship will get what it wants, where it wants it and at a firm price.
The whole of this enormously intricate system of trade, upon which the whole of our export depends, has been carried on on a narrow margin of profit. No one has suggested that the margin is excessive; indeed, it is a margin of profit which is agreed with the Cod Board, and I am pretty sure that the Coal Board themselves could not do it more cheaply. It does not end there. In many countries, these merchants have added to their business of supplying coal, the supplying of ships' stores and other merchanting activities. This has been very good business, and it has also enabled them to get extra good will and extra contracts in the supply of coal. This vast network of experience is always at the disposal of the Coal Board, together with all the invaluable information about the markets, and it will continue to be available to them unless the Coal Board come into competition, If, as the Minister says, they are to enter into competition with these merchants, then the Board can hardly expect the merchants to put the whole of their information

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at the disposal of the Coal Board, subsidised by the taxpayers' money, to compete with them.
To-day these merchants are producing invaluable invisible exports. Are the Government not anxious about their export trade? I have been reading some of the things the President of the Board of Trade has been saying. I have been reading the experiences of sellers at the British Industries Fair. It is not all plain sailing. More and more are we going into the buyers' market, where the seller is courtier and the buyer is king. Surely these invisible exports, upon which we depend to make up this increasing gap—it increased by £20,000,000 last month—are more important than ever. I should have thought that if there is any co-ordination in planning in the Government, they should seek to stimulate and encourage the people who have created these invisible exports.
In coal it will not be plain sailing. There was talk (I am not sure whether here, but certainly there was in another place) about the Minister directing the coal here and there. Soon he will not be directing coal; he will be hunting for places where he can sell it. I venture to prophesy that in five years' time there will be not a shortage but a glut of coal in the world. The Silesian coalfields will be able to produce at least 100,000,000 tons of coal in a year; the Ruhr will get going; Belgium has a surplus of coal at the present moment; and the French coalfields will expand. There are also the Americans who never entered this field of coal export before the war. But they have entered it now, and they have vast resources. It is easy for the Americans, in their stride, to export 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 tons of coal. In those circumstances, I am perfectly certain the Coal Board will have a full-time job in trying to produce coal of the right quality and at a price at which people will be willing to buy it. As I have said, and as the American Commission themselves report, these merchants have built up this export trade in British coal, and they have maintained it; and I would have thought that more than ever in the difficult times to come, the Coal Board would need the whole of the experience, the facilities, the connections and the good will of the merchants of British coal.
I do not believe there is anybody in this House who will challenge any of the
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statements which I have made. In those circumstances, could there be a more ill-advised moment to introduce such a proposal as this, or a more unfortunate moment for the Minister to try to butt in on this business. I submit that no case has been made for this new activity, and that an unanswerable case has been made against it. There is a tremendous amount of competition between these merchants; the only place in which there is no competition is in the nationalised industries. There is plenty of competition between merchants themselves—I know because I go from one to another—and between them and their foreign competitors.
If the Government merely want an insurance why cannot they accept my Amendment? It says that if the Government can establish a case where they ought to come in and exercise these overseas activities, let them make an Order and justify it; let them make an Order, either general or limited in its scope. Parliament would have to consider that Order at once. There would not be any delay, and Parliament would certainly consider it upon its merits and decide what to do. I submit that that is the proper way to deal with the matter, instead of asking to be allowed to do it without a vestige of justification, merely because the Minister wants new worlds to conquer—or perhaps a more appropriate metaphor would be that he wants new worlds to lose. Two years ago, Parliament declined to give him that power. The situation in regard to international trade is far more difficult to-day. The need for encouraging and maintaining the good will of these merchants is greater to-day than it was two years ago. I submit that there is no reason for giving the Minister these new powers. Therefore I ask the Government to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 23, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Swinton.)
LORD RENNELL: I would like to add one word on a slightly different line. I think the noble Viscount tended to limit his remarks to a certain aspect of the anticipated activities of the Coal Board, should these powers be granted. There is, however, a matter of general principle involved here which is of great importance, not only in the context of coal but in the context also of future

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programmes of the Labour Party. The Coal Act specifically limited the activities of the Coal Board to this country. This clause allows those activities to be extended, unfettered and untrammelled by any Parliamentary regulation or by any Parliamentary knowledge, to foreign countries. That in fact produces, or might produce, exactly the situation that so many of us have objected to in the case of other foreign countries. Your Lordships do not need to be reminded of the political, economic and diplomatic difficulties caused by Government selling agencies in foreign countries. We have had experiences of foreign Government selling agencies here, and those experiences have not been happy. Our relations might have been better in the past, but these agencies were a source of quite unnecessary friction. Therefore these powers ought not at this stage to be left within the unfettered discretion of the Coal Board itself, without Parliament having an opportunity of refusing its sanction to any one or other of these activities.
I know that an attractive case can be made for the setting up of a selling agency of the Coal Board in France or Italy—a large importer of British coal—or in other foreign countries. It may be an attractive set-up and some people may say that it is only right that this great industry should have its commercial representative, its own ambassador, who can take and accept orders. But consider where that will lead to if the nationalisation schemes are extended to other industries. Take the example of the chemical industry. Would not the nationalisation of that industry inevitably entail the chemical industry in this country having a Government selling agency in the United States, where a great many British chemical products are sold to-day? Your Lordships will begin to see, from this, the sources of friction which could arise. Although I am not prepared to go so far as to say that there should not be cases such as selling coal cargoes c.i.f., or having trade representation in certain places, I do say that these activities should not be embarked upon by the National Coal Board entirely at its own discretion without Parliament having a proper opportunity of refusing permission. On those grounds, I support the Amendment which has been moved by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton.
LORD HAWKE: My noble Leader has covered the ground in such an excellent way that I am going to make only a few comments, but I cannot let the occasion pass without saying something on a matter about which I feel very strongly. The noble Lord who has just sat down has pointed out the dangers arising from Government trade agencies operating overseas What I would like to stress—and I am sure this is well known to the Minister already—are the reasons why proposals of this sort come forward. We know the very facile case that can be made out for selling c.i.f., and this, I have no doubt, is prompted by the fact that buyers are telling the National Coal Board that British coal is far too dear. They are probably saying to the Board: "Why cannot we buy coal from you direct? It would then be much cheaper." I spoke about that matter not long ago to a foreign buyer. He was not aware that the agent's commission was some sixpence per ton. Foreign buyers talk of coal as being at least £1 or 30s. a ton too dear. They hope that if the National Coal Board can be persuaded to sell c.i.f., 30s. will come off. We here know that, if it does, it will come off at the expense of the British taxpayer.
This suggestion of the foreign buyer is actively helped by a movement from within the National Coal Board itself. Anyone who has served in a gigantic State organisation, as I have done and as I think the Minister has done also, knows well the constant pressure there is to increase the ambit of its activities. Prestige, promotion and various other considerations come into it. Such things vary according to the number of people employed in a person's Department. No opportunity will ever be lost, therefore, for backing up some suggested further extension. There is no profit motive in this the motive is purely prestige, "Empire building" and so on. For that reason it is the Minister's duty to draw a line round these nationalised undertakings and say to them: "You shall go so far and no further." Because, unless that is done, I well know that annually there will come to Parliament requests from one or other of these organisations to expand its activities into some very plausible new line. The next step to selling c.i.f. is, of course, shipowning; it is logical from that to own bunker depôts overseas, and after that to go into the

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oil business, and so on. There is no end to it. But I think I have said enough to show what is in my mind.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I am not at all surprised that noble Lords opposite take this stand regarding the question of expansion of activities of the National Coal Board. It would be contrary to their political philosophy if they did not. This is a case where a fundamental difference exists between the two sides, and it is useless to pretend that it does not. And certainly it is a difference to which we shall find it difficult to accommodate ourselves. The National Coal Board have been in existence now over two years. They have had a rich experience, and that experience has taught them that it is necessary to do something with regard to exporting. The Committee may be amazed to learn, but I want your Lordships to know and I think you ought to know, that it has been brought to my knowledge that some British exporters have been engaged in selling Polish coal in markets supplied hitherto with British coal.
LORD HAWKE: May I ask whether it has not been the function of British merchants throughout the ages to sell goods throughout the world from one country to another?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: That may be so, but let us look at the Coal Board in all fairness. Here are a Board with multifarious and very onerous obligations imposed upon them. They are asked to run an industry in the interests of the country and they find British exporters trying to oust them from a market which they have had for a number of years.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask the noble Lord whether British coal was available to these exporters at the same price?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: That market was, at that time, in the hands of the National Coal Board. British exporters then came along and robbed the National Coal Board of their market.
LORD HAWKE: The noble Lord has made very serious accusations against these people. Was this before or after
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the National Coal Board put up the price of coal for export by 25s. a ton?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: It is useless to quibble on this issue—
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Really, the noble Lord has made a very grave allegation and he should substantiate it by chapter and verse.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Let me substantiate it to this extent by chapter and verse. In a country not many miles from here the National Coal Board were selling coal, and they then found that a British exporter was endeavouring and, in fact, succeeding in selling Polish coal in that same market, and robbing the National Coal Board of that market.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It is most important to get this right. The noble Lord says that the National Coal Board were selling coal. This must have been a domestic market, presumably, where the Coal Board had the right to sell coal. That was, I suggest, exactly the position which the Minister said he wanted to have, the position where he and other people would be selling in competition. Apparently the National Coal Board were so incompetent, even in a market which they held, that they could not continue to hold it.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I do not think the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, is in any way helping by continually making these disparaging remarks regarding the National Coal Board. I do not think that helps in any shape or form. The National Coal Board discovered this activity of which I have spoken, and they realised that they must safeguard their interests. What did they do? They said: "Place us in the same position as our predecessors held. We ask for no more than that." So long as exporters continue to do their job efficiently, they have nothing to fear from this clause. Let me state that categorically. Exporters, so long as they do their job efficiently, have nothing in the world to fear from this clause.
"But," say the National Coal Board, "if we are entrusted with these obligations, then enable us to carry them out." But what does the Amendment say? It

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says that if the Board find they ought to engage in some minor overseas activity, they have to publicise it by going to both Houses of Parliament and then waiting for a decision. Does anyone suggest that we can carry on business successfully on those lines. This Amendment does not differentiate between major and minor operations. I did not expect it to do that, because of fundamental differences. Had the Opposition said that there were certain major operations, such as boring for coal or sinking a shaft, which ought to be subjected to some kind of Parliamentary approval, we could have understood. But to say that all minor operations shall be treated in the same way as major ones is entirely unfair to the National Coal Board.
Knowing the noble Viscount as I do, and knowing his knowledge of this industry, I thought he was going too far when he emphasised that in many cases merchants were carrying large stocks at overseas depôts at their own risk. Who were these exporters? In many cases, they were the coal owners themselves. And what were they doing? Like good business men they were saying, "It is rather heavy weather for us at home. We want to keep our colliers at work. That is far better, because the on-cost is so high when they are not working. We will ship our stock overseas." All the clause asks is that the National Coal Board should be given a chance to do something similar. They will have periods of heavy weather when the demand in this country will fall below the level of production. We should enable them to do the same as their predecessors. It is good business in the coal industry. I am prepared to say that I feel there are certain activities of a major kind which should be subject to Parliamentary control. I do not know whether the supporters of the Amendment would accept the idea that those should have the approval of the Minister.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I thought it was of Parliament.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I thought the noble Viscount might accept that as a compromise. The noble Viscount referred to the National Coal Board as an agency of the Government. That is a misconception which needs to be cleared away. The National Coal Board is not an
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agency of the Government. Would the noble Viscount suggest that the British Transport Commission or B.O.A.C. experienced the diplomatic difficulties of which he spoke?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: The British Transport Commission do not carry out any such activities abroad the B.O.A.C., yes.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Do the French National Railways experience these difficulties in running their activities in this country?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am not aware that the French National Railways run in England. I thought they ran in France.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: The French Railways are in this country. It is useless for the noble Viscount to try to create the kind of scarifying scene which I thought he made on Second Reading by pretending that this clause is going to create international dissension. We know that the Poles to-day are busy in different countries and in London, trying to sell Polish coal. In my opinion, it is very unfair to saddle the National Coal Board with all these heavy responsibilities and deny to them the machinery they need in order to discharge those responsibilities. I do not know what mood the noble Viscount is in to-day, but it might be that between now and Report stage we could come to a compromise regarding some kind of Parliamentary approval of major operations. But frankly this Amendment could not be accepted.
LORD TEVIOT: In order to get this matter clear, may I ask the noble Lord a question? He has made a very serious accusation against some of our coal agents abroad. Does that mean that they have deliberately not sold coal that was available, and have instead substituted other coal at the same price? Does it mean that there was a demand for British coal and the agents refused to sell it. Was that the accusation?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Let us be quite clear on this matter. Sometimes we may accept inferior coal because of differentiations of price, as the noble Lord suggests. What happened in a country very near here was that British coal was being sold. A British

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exporter offered Polish coal in preference to British coal and the Polish coal was bought and the British coal left unsold.
LORD TEVIOT: Was ours available?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Our coal was available, the same kind of coal as they had been receiving for years.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: And the price?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I could not say about price. It may be that the point I am putting over is not acceptable. It is that the British exporter himself was busily engaged in an activity which to some extent was hampering the National Coal Board. Hence the National Coal Board say that they should be in the same position as the coal owners were in before nationalisation.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I gather that Ireland is the country referred to by the noble Lord in this roundabout way. I do not see why it cannot be mentioned by name.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I thought it might not be mentioned to-day.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: The Republic of Ireland or Eire—we all know where it was. The National Coal Board were selling English coal, whereas the buyer wanted coal presumably of a certain quality and at a certain price. It is absurd to say that a British merchant would rather sell Polish coal than British. It is much simpler to get delivery of British coal and ship it from Cardiff to Dublin than to bring in Polish coal from Gdynia. Of course a merchant, whatever his nationality, would much rather ship British coal than any other. But I gather that British coal was beaten in the Irish market because it was either too dear or not of the quality the buyer wanted. The "wickedness" of this was that the Irish buyer insisted on having a particular kind of coal at a particular price and, the National Coal Board being unable to provide coal at that price, a British merchant filled the order with Polish coal. What would have happened if he had not? A Polish merchant would have filled the order with the Polish coal. Was it then so iniquitous?
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, in regard to the price, I am advised that the price of the Polish coal was comparable c.i.f. with British coal and the coal was comparable in quality. I do not need to remind your Lordships that the Poles do not usually give coal away.
4.39 p.m.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, having known the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, in another place for many years, and having always admired his fair-minded attitude towards problems which arise, I feel that, perhaps through lack of information on this subject, he has been less than usually generous to the coal exporters on the great part which they are playing at the present time towards our economic recovery. In the few words I am going to say, I shall quote to your Lordships figures from the publication, Coal Figures, issued by the National Coal Board, to which I drew attention on Second Reading. The position is that while in 1938 our coal exports to all countries were 35,000,000 tons, they dropped to something almost negligible in 1947—to a figure of a little over 1,000,000 tons. They had been slightly higher the year before, but due to various difficulties that we all know, they dropped to that very low figure.
It is of real interest, in connection with this Amendment, that between 1947 and 1948 coal exports rose to 10,500,000 tons—a substantial rise. There is still a long way to go to attain our pre-war figures, but that is a notable contribution towards our economic recovery: more coal has been raised and a considerable amount more coal exported. I feel, therefore, that we are perhaps losing sight of the wood and looking at the trees. The noble Lord instanced one case of a shortcoming on the part of certain coal exporters. But why, for that reason, plunge into such a wide departure as is proposed in the Bill? The Amendment enables the Minister, if he has evidence of some real shortcoming, to come to Parliament and ask for power to deal with it but the Bill provides a very wide departure into a new field fraught with danger. I do not intend to go over the points so admirably made by my noble friend, but I do put it to your Lordships that the figures I have quoted show a very marked improvement in our exports.

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By whom has that improvement been brought about? It has been brought about by the very exporters to whom to-day the Government and the noble Lord, briefed as he has been, are not paying a very high tribute. Some of the countries where the greatest exports have taken place are worth noting. In 1947 we exported to Spain only 9,000 tons; last year it went up to 627,000 tons, well on the way to the pre-war figure. Will the Government increase their exports to Spain by going into the trade themselves? Will the Government increase their exports to other countries by going into the trade themselves? In Italy we increased our exports very largely; and in the Argentine Republic we increased our exports from nothing to nearly 1,000,000 tons. I quote these figures only to show that our exporters are making real progress in markets which might not be so susceptible to Government trading.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, we had the suggestion a moment ago from the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, that we should allow this matter to run over to the Report stage. I do not think he put forward that suggestion in order that the Government might have time to consider the situation further, but so that we might have time to consider the situation further; at least, that is the impression I gained from his remarks. I would agree with him that the issue with which we are here involved is a profound and fundamental one: it is really the issue between monopoly and competition. After all, the whole tempo of the noble Lord's speech was that of a monopolist. It is quite easy for the Government, if they have a majority in Parliament, to create a monopoly at home. They can say that nobody shall produce a certain commodity but themselves, and nobody shall sell it but themselves; and if the price is rather higher than the people like to pay, they still have to pay it, because the Government have a monopoly. That is the position in the home market.
But when we come to the foreign market there is a very different situation. There the Government are up against competition, it may be from the home merchants, and it may be from foreign merchants. They do not like it, and I do not altogether blame them. They are
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monopolists used to controlling the situation, and they suddenly find a situation which they cannot control. The noble Lord complained bitterly, and said: "Here is the Coal Board wanting to sell coal at a certain price, and they find somebody else selling coal at a price at which they cannot compete." I am afraid—I do not say this of the noble Lord; I have too great a respect for him—that the Government are going to extend the operation of the Coal Board in order to cover the foreign market, and the next thing will be that they will deprive the home merchants of their export business. That is the issue, and it is a fundamental one.
We are always being told by the Government that in this and that trade (it is going to happen in the steel trade, I understand, if the Iron and Steel Bill becomes an Act) there is to be competition between the Government and private enterprise, which it is said will be to the advantage of both. But what will happen is the sort of thing with which we are faced here; it will merely be made impossible for private enterprise to carry on. It is our policy to avoid that in this country: that is what we stand for, and that is why we consider this to be a very important issue. For that reason, though I appreciate the noble Lord's offer that the matter should be considered further, I am afraid there is no ground for conversation on this particular Amendment, and I think it had better go to a Division.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, to avoid misunderstanding, I would just say that my suggestion was not only that the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, and his colleagues should consider the Amendment further, but also that the Government should consider it, in order to find out what major operations might be made the subject of control.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I do not think there is any difference. The issue is quite clear. We do not think the Coal Board, which to-day is forbidden by Parliament to engage in these activities, should engage in them without coming to Parliament and justifying themselves. If they have a big case, they can justify a big case; if they have a small one, they can justify that.

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But the issue is not the size of the illegitimate child. It is: Is this a legitimate or an illegitimate child? Quite frankly, we say it is illegitimate.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Termination of certain long-term contracts transferred to the Board.
3.—(1) This section applies to provisions of any contract made before the primary vesting date to which a colliery concern or a class A or class B subsidiary of a colliery concern is a party, being provisions—
(2) If the Board are of opinion that they are, or are likely to be, hampered in the efficient performance of their functions by the operation of provisions of a contract, being provisions to which this section applies, they may, by notice in writing served on the purchaser, agent or transferee, as the case may be, determine the operation of the provisions on such date during the period of two years beginning with the first day of January, nineteen hundred and fifty, as may be specified in the notice, not being a date earlier than six months from the date of the service of the notice, and—
(a) if the contract does not comprise provisions other than those to which this section applies, it shall, as between the Board and the purchaser, agent or transferee, as the case may be, be deemed to be frustrated on that date, and the Board and the purchaser, agent or transferee, as the case may
On Question: Whether the said proviso shall be there inserted?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 49; Not-Contents, 18.

CONTENTS

Cholmondeley, M.

Lambert, V.

Gifford, L.

Salisbury, M.

Long, V.

Hatherton, L. [Teller.]

Townshend, M.

Margesson, V.

Hawke, L.

Willingdon, M.

Swinton, V.

Hutchison of Montrose, L.

Trenchard, V.

Kenilworth, L.

Bathurst, E.

Llewellin, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Aberdare, L.

O'Hagan, L.

De La Warr, E.

Ashburton, L.

Rennell, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

Braye, L.

Rochdale, L.

Carrington, L. [Teller.]

Sandhurst, L.

Munster, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Savile, L.

Onslow, E.

Sempill, L.

Scarbrough, E.

Clydesmuir, L.

Sinclair, L.

Cranworth, L.

Soulbury, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Cunliffe, L.

Teviot, L.

Elibank, V.

Derwent, L.

Teynham, L.

Esher, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Hailsham, V.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Wolverton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Jowitt, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Ammon, L.

Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, L.

Douglas of Kirtleside, L.

Marley, L.

Addison, V. (L. Privy Seal.)

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Merthyr, L.

Henderson, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

St. Davids, V.

Holden, L.

Rochester, L.

Kershaw, L.

Shepherd, L. [Teller.]

Adams, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L. [Teller.]

Williams, L.

be, shall for that reason be deemed to be discharged from the further performance of their obligations by virtue of the provisions; and
(b) if the contract comprises provisions other than provisions to which this section applies, so much of it as comprises provisions to which this section applies shall be treated as being a separate contract which shall, as between the Board and the purchaser, agent or transferee, as the case may be, be deemed to be frustrated on that date, and the Board and the purchaser, agent or transferee, as the case may be, shall, for that reason, be deemed to be discharged from the further performance of their obligations by virtue of the provisions to which this section applies.
4.55 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved, in subsection (1), after "contract" to insert:
"being a contract other than one entered into in the ordinary course of business and made between parties independent of each other who negotiated at arms length—".
The noble Lord said: Clause 3 of the Bill deals with contracts, and in moving this Amendment I think one should refer to the condition of contracts generally under the Bill. Under the principal Act of 1946 the Coal Board in the main took

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over the assets and the liabilities of the collieries, and their contracts. It had no power under that Act to terminate contracts unless they had been entered into after the magic date of August, 1945. This Bill gives the Board power to terminate contracts if they think they will hamper, or are liable to hamper, them in their legitimate operations.
The contracts which can be cancelled are of various sorts. They must be not terminable before the end of 1951, and they must fall into three categories—in connection with the selling of their products, the employment of agencies or the restriction of the activities of a colliery or a subsidiary. To terminate the contracts, the Board must give six months' notice, and the termination must take place during the years 1950 or 1951. The Board pay compensation, and the compensation can be assessed by a tribunal. In assessing that compensation, the tribunal must consider what would have been the terms of the contracts if they had been entered into between parties who were not connected and who were bargaining as if in the open market.
In this Amendment, we are trying to take out of the zone or region of terminability certain types of contract. They must, first, have been contracts made in the ordinary course of business; secondly, contracts made between parties independent of each other, and thirdly, contracts made between parties who negotiated at arms length. In another place, and at other times, various statements have been made about the contracts inherited by the National Coal Board. They were alleged to have been peculiar, and so on. The Committee will note that there are three qualifications for removal from this terminability, which are designed to cover only those contracts which it clearly seems equitable should not be terminated. Now our reason for doing this is on the general ground of the sanctity of contracts. As a nation, we stand to gain or lose more than any other by the sanctity of contracts, and we believe that any opportunity given to the Board to terminate legitimate contracts would be most unfortunate, in that it would create awkward precedents against the Board and against other of our nationalised activities in other countries.
Admittedly, there must be compensation under the clause for any act of termination.
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On the other hand, compensation is not everything; a contract is often much more valuable than compensation. And, in any case, compensation does nothing towards restoring the doctrine of the sanctity of contracts. Moreover, we cannot find any provision in the Bill for enabling the other side to cancel contracts if they hamper or are likely to hamper the other side—and as a result of the change of ownership there may be such contracts. What is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander; but we do not go so far as giving the other side a chance. In another place, the Parliamentary Secretary admitted that power was not required to terminate contracts of the straightforward kind that I instance; and in seeking to make sure that the Bill carries this out we are virtually giving effect to the wishes of the Parliamentary Secretary himself. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 24, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I would like at once to dispel any idea that this clause affects the sanctity of contracts. It is not intended to do that. What it deals with is a specific type of contract that was made prior to nationalisation. As regards the particular Amendment, I have much sympathy with it, and I would like to suggest to the Committee that we might consider whether it is possible, in dealing with the question, of date, to come to an agreement. Mention is made in the Amendment of negotiation "at arms length," and the question is, prior to what date should a contract have been made to have the advantage of this Amendment? I suggest, for the consideration of noble Lords opposite, that the vesting date may be the testing date. I think that if that were acceptable there is no reason why we should not accept the Amendment; but we must have some specific date.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: By that I think the noble Lord means that the parties were at arm's length when the contract was made and remained at arms length as at the vesting date.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Yes, that is all.
LORD HAWKE: If it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to bring forward an Amendment on the Report stage to that effect, I think that will prove acceptable to us, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved, in subsection (2) after "may" to insert "subject as hereinafter provided—". The noble Lord said: We move still further into this morass of contracts. Clause 3 (2) (b) of the Bill, in abbreviated form, runs:
"if the contract comprises provisions other than provisions to which this section applies, so much of it as comprises provisions to which this section applies shall be treated as being a separate contract … and shall be deemed to be frustrated on that date …"
By this Amendment we are seeking to put right a position which is, I must confess, by no means clear to us. We believe that under the wording of the Bill it is quite possible for there to be in existence a contract between the National Coal Board and some other party, part of the provisions of which could be terminated under the provisions of this clause, but part of which could not. It might redound to the advantage of the National Coal Board to terminate that part which they can terminate, leaving high and dry that portion of the contract which might prove burdensome upon the other party.
The sort of thing I tentatively put forward as a contract which might fall within that definition would be this. Suppose they had a contract for the sale of coal to some agent, and a part of that contract or consideration was that he should keep a branch open in Timbuctoo. Under this clause the National Coal Board could terminate the burdensome contract for selling coal, but the other portion of the contract, to keep the branch open in Timbuctoo, would still persist; it might well be to the advantage of the National Coal Board to have a British agent with an office in Timbuctoo, notwithstanding that they did not have to supply him with coal. It is to relieve the other party in such cases that we have put forward this Amendment. I trust I have made myself clear to the noble and learned Viscount and that he will be able to give us some assurance in the matter. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 20, after ("may") insert ("subject as hereinafter provided—").—(Lord Hawke.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As the words "subject as hereinafter provided—" are, of course, a mere paving Amendment for what is to come, it may be to your Lordships' convenience if I follow the noble Lord's example and discuss the substance rather than the form that is here involved. I think there is a little danger of confusion here, and I agree with the noble Lord that the matter is not very clear. I think that what we have to consider is this. What is proposed is not that the Coal Board should be able to get rid of part of a contract; the Board cannot pick and choose and get rid of bits of the contract. But, of course, an obligation arises from the fact that the Coal Board took over sometimes, not a whole contract, but only part of a contract. Take the rather fanciful case of the contract to supply coal for a long period of time, and suppose there is an obligation to keep an office open in Timbuctoo. That is a contract made between A and B before the Coal Board came on the scene, and the Board took over only that part of the contract which relates to the supply of coal. The particular part of the contract which relates to the office in Timbuctoo remains a contract between A and B. The Coal Board cannot possibly give notice of termination of that, or indeed act on it in any way, because they are not parties to it, and they have no concern with it. I believe the underlying fallacy is that the noble Lord has thought that the Coal Board can repudiate a part of a contract and not repudiate another part of the same contract. I readily agree that, if that were so, it would be a most monstrous doctrine; but it is not so. I can give the noble Lord further information about this which will reassure him. The Coal Board have to think out their policy; and they have, in certain circumstances, for instance, to make up their minds whether to utilise a particular pit or a particular group of pits, or whether they are going to close them down as uneconomical.
The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, knows much better than I do that it not infrequently happens that there is a particular contract to supply coal from a particular pit, or it may be coal of a particular quality which is obtained only from that particular pit or group of pits. In the interests of policy and in the public interest it may be that it would

629
be right to close down those pits altogether because they are uneconomical. It really would be a lamentable thing that the Coal Board should be obliged to keep open a particular pit, which ex hypothesi is uneconomical, because there is attached to it a string in the nature of a contract that they shall supply coal from that particular pit. It is for that reason that we think it necessary to have these provisions, and that is the sort of case we have in mind. It is not merely a case of an old contract to supply at a low price which is now uneconomical; the case which we have in mind is where there is an obligation to supply either a particular grade of coal or coal from a particular pit, and where policy will be that that grade or that pit is no longer wanted in the future. In those circumstances, we think it is essential that the Coal Board should have this right to terminate a contract, while, of course, paying compensation. I hope that I have made it plain that they must terminate the whole of the contract, and that they should not, and cannot, be allowed to pick and choose as to what part they shall terminate. I hope that with that assurance the noble Lord will understand the position, and will not press his Amendment.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Your Lordships are deeply indebted to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor for that extremely clear explanation of what I am bound to say is a difficult clause to understand. If I may venture to offer advice to my noble friend, I suggest that probably the wise thing would be not to move any of these Amendments now. In the light of the elucidating remarks made by the Lord Chancellor perhaps he on his part and we on our part may consider further (though I am not sure that that applies with regard to what goes to arbitration) whether the clause ought to be amended in order to effect what is the common intention. It is very satisfactory to know that the Board would have to terminate all or nothing. The only words, to which my attention has been drawn, which I would like the Lord Chancellor to consider, are the words in line 36 of page 3:
"… so much of it as comprises provisions to which this section applies."
I take it that that does not mean some part of the contract as subsisting between
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the Coal Board and the party concerned, but all that part of a contract which exists between the Coal Board and the individual, although another part of the contract may subsist between the individual and somebody else?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is precisely right.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Then those words seem to be all right. Another point I wish to raise is this. "Hampered" is a word for which there is no definition in the Interpretation Clause, and I read Clause 3 as meaning, that if the Coal Board had entered into a contract to supply coal at a low price, that might be regarded by them as a hampering contract, because the coal might be supplied at half the price which they could obtain from somebody else to-day on the open market. The Lord Chancellor has told us that that is not in the least the intention, that the only contract which can be determined is a contract which really (to paraphrase it) in the future it will become impossible for the Coal Board to honour. In my youth, I learned that there was a doctrine of supervenient impossibility.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is right.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It becomes impossible. It is a contract which is going to become impossible, not one which is going to become merely inconvenient. I think that the draftsman ought to look at this and see whether any words ought to be added to qualify "hampered," such as: "by reason of its being, in the opinion of the Coal Board, impossible to do it." That would show that the reason for the termination is not commercial: that the Board cannot terminate a contract because it is commercially inconvenient; but only because it will become impossible to honour it. Provided that that is the intention, as I am sure it is, then I agree that the Coal Board must be the judge, because it seems to me that it is only the Coal Board who can say: "This pit is going to close down in three years' time." In the light of the natural conditions which follow from that closing down, there must be the right to terminate, because events will terminate it for you. I think the whole clause could be looked at to see that those intentions are given effect to, and that these points are met.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will certainly ask the draftsman to look at it again. I will consult with anyone my noble friend desires me to. The difficulty of putting it into words is this. In a case where it is obviously sensible to give up working from a particular pit which is running at a heavy loss, I doubt whether that would be a supervenient impossibility because by a deliberate act the Board give up working that particular pit. I do not think that the doctrine of supervenient impossibility would come in, as it would if there were a landslide or a flood. That is the difficulty of having other words. I have given your Lordships an assurance that I will ask the draftsman to look at the clause again to see if he can devise some form of words (although I doubt if he can) to put down on paper.
LORD HAWKE: Light is beginning to dawn, but even now it is extremely difficult for a simple and wicked Tory to understand this clause. I hope that the Lord Chancellor will ask the draftsman to look at it from the point of view that, as it stands at present, read by a layman, the clause appears to provide that the National Coal Board can get rid of half of a contract and leave somebody else with the other half. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.19 p.m.
LORD CLYDESMUIR LORD CLYDESMUIR moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"(3) The purchaser, agent or transferee, as the case may be, may within two months after the date of the service upon him of the notice given by the Board under the last foregoing subsection refer to arbitration under the principal Act the question whether or not the operation of the provisions of the contract or any of them ought to be determined under this section and no such notice as aforesaid shall be valid or have any effect unless it contains a statement of the right hereinbefore conferred to refer the said question to arbitration as aforesaid and if the arbitration tribunal are satisfied on any such reference that the Board are hampered in the efficient performance of their functions the tribunal shall confirm the notice and if not so satisfied shall determine that the notice shall be of no effect."
The noble Lord said: It would appear convenient that we should discuss this Amendment and the next one, at page 4, line 33, at the same time, because they concern the same point—the question of arbitration. May I put forward my arguments to cover both Amendments? Much
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of what the Lord Chancellor has said affects what I was going to say and reassures us considerably on various points. Yet there remain some points that I would like to argue for a moment. The Amendments which I move would give the right to the purchaser, agent or transferee to go to arbitration under the terms of the principal Act. This Amendment refers not to the question of compensation, but to whether there should be a right to go to arbitration on the Board's opinion in relation to the determination of a contract.
I do not want to enlarge on what has been said already, but it seems that the powers which the Board are taking are very great, and that it would not be unreasonable that anyone affected should be able to call arbitration to his aid. The second Amendment goes into some detail on several points which might be the subject of arbitration, but does not add materially to the main point which I make. The purpose of the Amendment is to give the opportunity to anyone so affected to take the whole question, and not merely the amount of compensation, to arbitration. I hope the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor can make a statement on that subject.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 45, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Clydesmuir.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord has put the position clearly and correctly, as he always does. What I feel is that this is really not a fit and proper matter for arbitration. I do not quite see how one can arbitrate on it. Let us take the case we were taking just now, where the Coal Board make up their mind to close down a group of pits in some part of the country and concentrate on pits in another part of the country; and they make up their mind that that is the right, the best, and the most sensible policy to pursue. What we have just done is more or less to agree (it being the fact that they take that policy, and assuming that it is the sensible and right policy) that they should not be hampered, in taking it, by the leading strings of some long-term contract applying to some particular pit. I do not think it is possible to leave the question of policy to an arbitrator. Whether they are going to close down this pit or that group of pits depends upon

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the whole outline of policy on their general plan. I do not see how we can leave a particular question of that sort to an arbitrator. I think the only way it can be dealt with is to say that the Coal Board must make up their minds about policy, and having made up their minds, if they create hardship for somebody by breaking a contract, they must pay compensation. I believe the noble Lord will agree that it is impossible to take before an arbitrator this judiciable issue as to whether or not the Board should stop working this particular pit or that group of pits. It would be impossible to form an opinion upon it unless one surveyed the whole field, and I do not believe that that is possible. For that reason, I hope the noble Lord will consider it and, if he thinks I am right, that he will withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am inclined to agree with that, now that we know the position. We had put down this Amendment owing to a misunderstanding about the word "hampered." Obviously, if it meant commercially hampered, then that would be a judiciable issue. On the other hand, where it is a question of the Coal Board deciding whether or not to close down a particular pit, I entirely agree that that is the duty upon the Coal Board—and nobody but the Coal Board can discharge it. Once they have discharged it, then the contract terminates, and the whole question of what is reasonable in the way of compensation goes to the arbitrator. So long as that is the intention, I do not think we can ask for more.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4:
Superannuation, etc., rights
(2) Subsection (2) of the said section thirty-seven (which provides that, in the case of persons who have been in employment in or in connection with coal industry activities or transferred allied activities before the primary or other relevant vesting date, the regulations to be made for the purposes of subsection (1) of that section shall be so framed as to secure, amongst other things, that where an expectation of accruer, whether as of right or under customary practice, of any particular benefits in favour of any such person, or in favour of another person by reference to his
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employment, ceases or is prejudiced by reason of his ceasing in consequence of the passing of that Act to be employed by his previous employer or to be employed in the activities aforesaid, the same benefits, or substituted benefits not less advantageous, shall be provided for under the regulations), shall be deemed to have been enacted with the omission of the words "or an expectation of accruer (whether as of right or under customary practice) of," but the said regulations shall be so framed as to secure that where, in the case of a person to whom the said subsection (2), as amended by the foregoing subsection, applies, such an expectation as aforesaid ceases or prejudiced by reason of his ceasing in consequence of the passing of the principal Act to be employed by his previous employer or to be employed in activities to which paragraph (a) of that subsection, as so amended, applies, there shall be provided in his favour or in favour of another person by reference to his employment, as compensation for the Lesser of or prejudice to that expectation, benefits ascertained by reference—

(a) to the period of employment to service wherein that expectation was ascribable; and

(b) (except where the benefits expected to accrue would not have been ascertained by reference to emoluments enjoyed by him), to the emoluments enjoyed by him during that period:

Provided that this subsection, so far as it relates to the framing of regulations, shall have effect subject to such limitations as may be prescribed for meeting cases in which any such expectations as aforesaid may have been created, otherwise than in the ordinary course, in connection with any provision made by the principal Act or with any anticipation of the making of any such provision.
VISCOUNT SWINTON VISCOUNT SWINTON moved to leave out subsection (2). The noble Viscount said: We now come to an issue which is, I think, a very simple but very important one—namely, whether the Government are, in fact, by subsection (2)—I do not take exception to subsection (1)—seeking to avoid or evade the clear pledge which was given on the introduction or before the introduction of the principal Act, and which is given effect to by Section 37 of that Act. I must trouble your Lordships for a few moments, because we must see exactly what the pledge was and what the Act of Parliament lays down. Your Lordships will agree that Parliament has always been scrupulous to safeguard the position of employees, not only in nationalisation Bills but in any of the old amalgamation Bills to which we were accustomed in pre-nationalisation times. Parliament has always been scrupulous

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to safeguard the position of an employee, not only in his legal rights, which, indeed, might remain enforceable, but in his justifiable expectations. If I may put it in a common phrase, what Parliament has always to safeguard is that, by reason of an amalgamation, nationalisation or public purchase, a man employed in the industry should not be worse off.
I think that was common ground in regard to coal nationalisation. Mr. Shinwell, who was the first Minister, made that perfectly clear when on April 2, 1946, in Standing Committee, he said:
"It is our intention that this model employer, the National Coal Board, shall deal fairly and squarely with its employees, and with those who have been in the service of colliery undertakings and subsidiary undertakings. That is our intention, and I have no doubt that it will be fully complied with."
I must say that I think the Minister was as good as his word. I forget whether we made any Amendments here, but there was no dispute between the two Houses about it at all. Section 37 (2) of the principal Act carried out this intention perfectly clearly. I must read it to your Lordships. It is:
"In the case of persons, whether taken into the service of the Board or not, who have been in employment in or in connection with coal industry activities or transferred allied activities before the primary or other relevant vesting date, the regulations"—
that is, the regulations for compensation—
"to be made for the purposes of the preceding subsection"—
that, as I say, deals with compensation—
"shall be so framed as to secure that, where either (a) a right to"—
that is a legal right, and now we come to the important words—
"or an expectation of accruer (whether as of right or under customary practice) of, any particular benefits in favour of any such person, or in favour of another person by reference to his employment, ceases or is prejudiced by reason of his ceasing in consequence of the passing of this Act to be employed by his previous employer or to be employed in the activities aforesaid"—
and then I need not bother your Lordships with (b). Then it goes on:
"the same benefits, or substituted benefits not less advantageous, shall be provided for under the regulations."
That entirely confirms the pledge that, as I have commonly put it, nobody should be worse off. Indeed, the present Minister confirmed that that was the position
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under the regulations which he would have to make, and on July 9, 1946, he said:
"I would emphasise, however, that the regulations which are made must provide for the same benefits or substituted benefits not less advantageous than those previously enjoyed either as of tight or under customary practice."
That was the position under the principal Act. Subsection (2) of Clause 4 of this Bill would, quite definitely, revoke that protection which Parliament laid down. If the Committee look at subsection (2), they will see that at line 30 on page 5 it says that subsection (2) of Section 37, which is the section giving the protection:
"shall be deemed to have been enacted with the omission of the words or an expectation of accruer (whether as of right or under customary practice) of,'…"
Then it goes on to lay down what the regulations shall provide instead. There is no doubt at all that this new clause will take away from some men what Section 37 of the principal Act deliberately gave them. The Solicitor-General said that in terms. I think I quoted his words on Second Reading, but I would again read what he said:
"… Section 37 (2) (a) of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, created the obligation that regulations must not be less advantageous than the right or expectation in substitution for which they provide a benefit. It is these words 'or expectation' which have been found in practice not really satisfactory.…"
I am not quite sure who found them not really satisfactory. It may well be that the Coal Board who were under obligation to pay thought they were not satisfactory. But the man who was going to be paid, I should think, found them highly satisfactory.
The Solicitor-General went on to say:
"The new clause may in some cases inure to the advantage of the person who claims an expectation and in some cases it may be the reverse."
There is not the least doubt that in some cases it will be the reverse. I am not saying that the Coal Board were not quite right to improve the conditions of some of their employees if they thought those conditions were not good enough. Of course they were right—they are "model employers." If necessary, they ought to improve conditions, pensions or whatever it may be. But that is no excuse for taking away something from someone else. Because you are making

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one man better off, that is no reason for making someone else worse off. It is all right, of course, to make the rich poorer and to make the poor richer, but there is not even that excuse here. It is deliberately making men worse off. The Minister was very frank and he spoke bluntly of the thesis that Parliament can break a statutory pledge if it pleases. Of course, legally, a Parliament may do anything at all; but surely there are certain moral obligations resting upon it.
The Minister's language was so odd that I think your Lordships ought to appreciate it. He said, on February 10 this year:
"It is perfectly clear that all I was saying in reply … was that the regulations had to be made and had to provide the same benefits or substituted benefits not less advantageous than those previously enjoyed either as of right or under customary practice. In fact, regulations were made, so if any pledge was given it was carried out."
There was no doubt about the pledge. The Minister went on to say:
"but there was no pledge given to refrain in all circumstances from introducing an amending Bill to clarify the position."
"Clarify the position," it would seem, means to make someone worse off than Parliament made him under Section 37 of the principal Act. I think that "clarify the position" in that connection is a terminological inexactitude. At any rate, it is not exactly the phrase one would have used. "Clarify" here, is, apparently, to alter the position to the detriment of the individual. Ribbentrop, I believe, used to say that pledges and undertakings only held rebus sic stantibus—the conditions altered and the pledge was not binding. I do not think that, as a matter of fact, Ribbentrop worried very much whether the conditions altered or not. Here the conditions have not altered at all. The Minister says frankly—if that is the right word—the pledge is not to be binding if the Government find it unsatisfactory or inconvenient.
I should say in passing that although it is true that the words which the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, has put down, to make alterations in line 41 and line 43, clarify the position a little, I think he would agree that they do not alter what I have said. The man would still be worse off. Let me make that clear. Hitherto a man has been entitled to say:
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"I have an expectation of accruer. If I went on in my employment I should rise to such and such a position, or have the chance of doing so. If I did, I should get this pension right." What the clause says, even with Lord Macdonald's Amendments to it, is that the man shall have nothing in respect of his future expectations; he shall have compensation but that compensation will be based on the number of years during which he has been serving and upon the emoluments he has received during those years. He shall have nothing, the clause says, for his future chance. That is certainly taking away something from a man.
It is said that it would be very difficult to assess this future chance. I do not know that it would be so very difficult. I believe that, in firms which actually had this practice, if a man went on and attained to a position, he received all the emoluments which belonged to that position, including the pension rights. If he left, I believe he was given something as a sort of assessment of the future which he might have expected to enjoy. I do not say that it is not difficult to assess what the chance is. One cannot say for certain that a particular racehorse is going to win a race; but it has a certain value because it has a sporting chance, even if it is only an outside chance. You do not say: "We do not know for certain that that horse is going to win the race; therefore, let us discount all its hopes and expectations, treating them as valueless." As I say, this may be a difficult matter to assess, but it is not an impossible one. The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, knows that quite well, because he constantly wagers his expectation on these hopes.
The real issue here is, are we going to keep faith or are we frit? I put aside the Minister's argument that it is all right for Parliament to give a pledge (and admittedly he made some regulations), but, of course, there was nothing to stop him changing them all round and abandoning the pledge. I am sure that that argument will not be advanced here. Certainly, it would not be heard with great tolerance if it were. We are driven back to this question: Are we to get out of this pledge because it may be very difficult to assess what future chance a man has? It is not always easy to keep faith, in any walk of life, bug it has not hitherto,

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I think, been held in religion or in morals that a good reason for breaking faith is that it is difficult to keep faith. I submit, whether difficult or not, we should keep faith and that we should not accept this subsection. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 17, leave out subsection (2).—(Viscount Swinton.)
5.40 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is a difficult clause to expound, and I do not think the noble Viscount has quite done justice to it by treating it as though we were seeking to break faith. May I give your Lordships a simple illustration, and ask you what you would do? Let us suppose that on the same day there appeared before the arbitrator two young men who had been in the employment of the same coal concern. Both had served for fifteen years, and were receiving a salary of £750 a year. They had not been taken on by the National Coal Board, and both brought their case and asked for compensation. As arbitrators, would you or would you not think it right to award these two men the same sum of money? Or would you think it right to say, "That fellow seems to us to be a very bright specimen and we think he will go far. His expectation is better than that of the other fellow, who seems a bit dumb?" That is the problem. Of course it is extremely difficult to imagine what will happen in the future. The man might be run over by a bus or, after all, he might be no good in a position of higher authority. A hundred and one things might happen, and it is far beyond the wit of man to come to any accurate conclusion about what the future holds.
It is to overcome that difficulty that the clause is drafted in this form. Be it observed that, owing to the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald's Amendment, we are not seeking to avoid paying fair and reasonable compensation. The noble Lord's Amendment will make the clause read as follows, at line 40:
"… there shall be provided in his favour or in favour of another person by reference to his employment, fair and reasonable compensation for the cesser of or prejudice to that expectation—being compensation ascertained by reference …"
to paragraphs (a) and (b)—the period of employment and the emoluments enjoyed by him during his service. That is to say,
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the arbitrator is to ascertain what is a fair and reasonable compensation for loss of expectation, but is to consider it primarily from the point of view of the ascertainable facts—namely, how long the employee served and what his emoluments were. I do not think for a moment that it can be suggested that we are breaking faith or getting out of this cheaply. Globally, I do not think it is going to make the slightest difference to the National Coal Board. I conceive that it is possible that one man might get less and another more, according to whether compensation is based on the expectation of the future or based solidly on the past. But to differentiate between two men on the basis of guessing what is going to happen in the future, when their past service and emoluments were exactly the same, is unfair.
I remember that Lord Keynes started his book A Treatise on Probability by the illustration of a girl who brought an action for damages for being deprived of the right to enter a beauty competition. The jury had to assess the damages without seeing the other entrants! To assess expectation is, of course, an extraordinarily difficult thing to do. There would be much heart searching between two such men as I have instanced if we based their compensation on the strength of a guess—because that is all it can be—as to what would happen in the future. I do not want to rule out expectation. I want these men to be compensated fairly and reasonably for everything they have lost, including their expectations, but I suggest that we should do greater justice and give more satisfaction by basing it on something which is fixed and ascertainable, rather than on a mere speculation with which it is impossible to deal. That is the object of this clause, which amends Section 37 (2) (a) of the old Act. This section laid down that regulations had to be formulated to deal with this matter, but the regulations did not give the unhappy arbitrator any guidance on what he was to do. If your Lordships will consider yourselves as arbitrators, and examine the actual case I have given you, and will ask yourselves, taking the words of the Act unamended, what you would do, I venture to say that your Lordships will see the ground for this amendment of the principal Act. We believe that instead of basing compensation on a hopelessly vague and indefinite

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expectation, it is better to base it on the ascertainable facts of long service and emoluments.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It seems to me that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has given a much firmer explanation than the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor. We want to do justice here, but I think he is still doing an injustice if there are no words about expectations. The noble and learned Viscount said that compensation should be based on years of service, and the amount of money earned during those years. There is no word about cesser or expectation of the future. When a man is "sacked," the least that we can do is to say that since he is getting £10 a week we assess his loss of employment on that. That means we are giving him something because of his past or, to put it better, because of the present position of which he is being deprived. What the Act said, and, what is more important, what was the custom of employers, was that he should be given something more, something for his loss of expectation for the future. I do not think there is a difference of fact between us. The proposal of the noble and learned Viscount would be treating a man reasonably and fairly if all the man had been entitled to was compensation for his present loss of employment and for his earnings and length of service in the past.
But what we promised to do under the principal Act—and what I believe we still want to do—is to ensure that because a man has either been taken over by the National Coal Board or "sacked" because the Board had made economies, he should not be worse off than in his old employment: that he should have compensation for what he might have expected to get. That is what the cesser and right of expectation means. It occurs only in the case of good firms who were generous to their employees and who gave them opportunities and extra pension rights in the future. Under this clause, as the noble and learned Viscount would have it, I think we should deal fairly by a man who had no such expectation, but we should deal unfairly with a man who had expectation, for while Section 37 says that such a man shall be compensated this clause gives him nothing for that expectation. I think that is wrong. In the Act of 1946 we certainly meant to give him compensation for this,
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and we gave it to him in words which we considered carefully at the time in both Houses of Parliament. I do not think, because it is difficult of assessment, that we ought to deprive him of that to-day.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is not my understanding of the clause. The clause says that a man must be paid compensation, and, by the proposed Government Amendment, "fair and reasonable compensation" for the cesser of or prejudice to that expectation. I think it is fallacious to read the clause as though those words were not there. If I were the arbitrator I should try to make up my mind what sum the man should have. Then, if I had to do a series of these cases, I should try to base compensation on his past service and emoluments so that, comparing one ease with another, I did not differentiate unfairly between two men.
5.51 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: This is a very difficult point. We certainly' do not want to make it a controversial point, and are anxious only to be fair. When I first listened to the Lord Chancellor I formed the impression—which I now see was wrong—that he was saying that as the original wording in the main Act was obscure, and one man might, possibly unfairly, get more than another, it was better to give nothing to either. That certainly the Lord Chancellor did not mean, and, of course, it would not be a right thing to do. I agree with the Lord Chancellor that the sort of consideration which some people might have in mind, that one man is very clever and the other very stupid, is something which cannot be assessed. But the sort of thing which can be assessed is this. Here is a man who has had a certain number of years' service, and has certain emoluments; a comparable man in the firm with that period of service would reach a certain standard of emoluments by the time he reached the end of his working life and would be receiving higher emoluments than he is at present. That is a possible calculation. What I want to know is this: Is the meaning of the words "benefits ascertained by reference" in line 43 merely that you consider the present emoluments and length of service and

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base the compensation on them? Or does it mean that you say: "Here is a man who is at present getting these emoluments after so many years' service. We might have expected him, if his employment had not ceased, eventually to rise to such-and-such a standard," and then base your compensation on that?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My understanding is the latter, because if it were the former, plainly I should not be paying the man fair and reasonable compensation for an expectation, and that is what I have to do. If I can devise more satisfactory words to make it plain that it is not intended to pay the man for what he has to-day, disregarding the future altogether, I shall be only too pleased. On the other hand, I do not want to base the compensation on a mere guess as to the future, which I am sure will cause heart-burning.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I would like to clear this up. You begin by saying that the principal Act shall have effect as if the words "expectation of accruer" had never been in at all. What everybody read that as meaning was that a man is to get nothing for "expectation of accruer," because it has been removed from the Act. On the other hand you then put back here:
"… there shall be provided in his favour or in favour of another person … fair and reasonable compensation for the cesser of or prejudice to that expectation. …"
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Line 36 gives you the expectation.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: At line 35 it says:
"… subsection (2), as amended by the foregoing subsection, applies, such an expectation as aforesaid …"
THE LORD CHANCELLOR:
"… ceases or is prejudiced.…"
VISCOUNT SWINTON: That is an expectation of benefits to come?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Merely calling the thing "fair and reasonable compensation" does not make it fair and reasonable compensation, if you limit it to (a) and (b). But if (a) and (b) are a sort of minimum standard, a yardstick which is to be applied, and you are going to give
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him something more than just compensation for past service then I agree you are giving him something for the future. I would not like to divide if there is nothing between us on this, but I think it is important, because I am advised that the words as drawn (I do not think the words the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, wishes to introduce make any difference) give him merely something for the past, and do not give him something for his hopes for the future.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Frankly, it is not my intention here to "do down" any of these people. I think we could easily agree, if it would be any satisfaction to your Lordships, that the compensation a man should receive should be no less than he would have received if he had been dismissed by his old employer without the Coal Board having come into it. We have had an exchange of views about this, and I do not think we are very far apart. I would suggest that we discuss it between now and the Report stage—our experts and Parliamentary draftsmen can meet; I cannot promise anything, and the noble Marquess cannot promise anything—and endeavour to come to a satisfactory decision.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think that is the best course. After all, we both want the same thing. We may have different views as to the interpretation, but neither of us wants to be unfair. We have a few days in which we can talk it over to see whether we can find a solution.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Before this Amendment is withdrawn, I would like to put this from the employees' point of view. The employees had a provision in the old Act under which they believed they would receive absolute justice. A new clause is introduced into this Bill under which they are told by the Solicitor-General that some will be better off and some will be worse off. That has caused a great deal of feeling amongst the employees. To-day, this matter has been argued with great force, but I feel that one cannot leave the discussion which has taken place without pointing out the employees' point of view. Unless something is settled under which they can receive a guarantee that they will not be worse off under the clause, there will

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be a great deal of dissatisfaction, and they will also feel that the Government have broken faith with them.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: We will certainly bear that in mind.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.59 p.m.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORhad given notice of three Amendments to subsection (2), the first of which was to leave out "as" ["as compensation"] and insert "fair and reasonable"; the second, to leave out "benefits" in the last line of the first paragraph and insert "being compensation," and the third to insert a new subsection. The noble Lord said: I think it will be helpful if we take the next three Amendments together. The proposed new subsection is by far the more important of the three Amendments. That provides for arbitration as to whether the Board's obligations to protect certain pension rights and to pay compensation for the cesser or prejudice of certain expectations have been fully discharged in particular cases. This is an Amendment partly, if not mainly, in response to an undertaking given during Report stage in another place. The Parliamentary Secretary then used these words:
"There is no real need for arbitration on those circumstances because the fund itself provides for reference to a board of management which is usually composed of members of the fund and of the management. There is also the group of persons who have service under the old undertakings and who have certain rights and expectations. I do not think that we have really any objection to arbitration in relation to those people. We will look at that point, and if we can do something in any way for those people we will do it."
The discussion we have just had helps us to appreciate what this Amendment means, and I do not think it is necessary for me to say very much except this. Here we do provide that, in particular cases, the benefits provided by the Board are the same as, or not less advantageous than, those to which the individual concerned had a right, or of which he was already in receipt, and that the compensation provided is fair and reasonable in relation to the value of the expectations which have ceased or been prejudiced. Those matters can all be referred to arbitration, and I think the three Amendments
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combined will be acceptable to the Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 41, leave out ("as") and insert ("fair and reasonable").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I think this is a distinct improvement, not only in that it provides going to arbitration, but that it re-emphasises that the expectation of accruer is something for which there should be compensation. I think it helps us along our road.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 43, leave out ("benefits") and insert ("being compensation")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
"( ) Regulations made for the purposes of the said section thirty-seven shall provide for the reference to a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service of any dispute arising—
(a) in a case where—

(i) a right to any particular benefits in favour of a person to whom subsection (2) of that section, as amended by subsection (1) of this section, applies, or in favour of another person by reference to his employment, has ceased or been prejudiced by reason of his ceasing in consequence of the passing of the principal Act to be employed by his previous employer or to be employed in activities to which paragraph (a) of the said subsection (2), as so amended applies; or

(ii) any such person retired from employment before the primary or other relevant vesting date, and he, or another person by reference to his employment, had been in receipt of benefits granted in respect of his employment;

whether benefits provided in pursuance of regulations so made are the same as, or not less advantageous than, those the right to which has so ceased or been prejudiced, or, as the case may be, those that had been received;
(b) in a case where an expectation of accruer of any particular benefits in favour of a person to whom the said subsection (2), as amended as aforesaid, applies, or in favour of another person by reference to his employment, has ceased or been prejudiced as aforesaid, whether compensation provided in pursuance of regulations so made satisfies the requirements of the regulations;
and where, upon a reference under a provision of regulations having effect by virtue of this subsection, the referee or board of referees determines what benefits or compensation must be provided in order to satisfy the requirements of the regulations, it shall be the duty

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of the person charged by the regulations with the provision of the benefits or compensation to give effect to the determination."—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved after Clause 4 to insert the following new clause:
Power to provide for enforcement against the Board certain workmen's compensation liabilities
" .—(1) If it apears to His Majesty in Council that arrangements have been made—

(a) between the Board and a person who at any time before the primary vesting date was the owner of an interest in property that vested in the Board under the principal Act, for the assumption by the Board of all or any of the workmen's compensation liabilities of that person; or

(b) between the Board and a mutual indemnity association of which any such person as aforesaid is, or was at any time, a member, for the assumption by the Board of all or any of such of the liabilities of the association under a contract of insurance entered into between them and any person (whether such a person as aforesaid or not) whereby he is or was insured against workmen's compensation liabilities to any workmen as, by virtue of the happening of any of the events mentioned in subsection (1) of section seven of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925 (which relates to bankruptcy, the winding up of companies, etc.), are enforceable against the association by the workmen, their legal personal representatives or their dependants or others to whom or for whose benefit compensation is payable;

he may by Order in Council provide for the enforcement of the liabilities to which the arrangements relate against the Board instead of against that person or, as the case may be, the association, as if the employment out of which the liabilities arise had been employment by the Board instead of by that or some other person or, as the case may be, the Board had subscribed the contract instead of the association and, in connection therewith, for conferring on the Board the rights and remedies which that person or, as the case may be, the association would have had in respect of the liabilities if they had remained enforceable against that person or, as the case may be, the association.
(2) Where the discharge of a workmen's compensation liability which, by virtue of an Order in Council under the foregoing subsection, is rendered enforceable against the Board, is secured by virtue of a compensation trust, the Order may extinguish the liability of the trustees under the trust to make a payment in or towards the discharge of the first-mentioned liability.
(3) Where a person the discharge of any of whose workmen's compensation liabilities is severed by a compensation trust was at any lime before the primary vesting date the owner
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of an interest in property that vested in the Board under the principal Act, the trustees under the trust shall have power, and be deemed always to have had power, to make to the Board, out of the trust fund created for the purposes of the trust, payments in consideration of the assumption by the Board, under arrangements made between the Board and that person, of any of those liabilities of that person the discharge of which is secured by the trust.
(4) An Order in Council under this section may contain such incidental and supplementary provisions as appear to His Majesty in Council to be requisite or expedient for the purposes of the Order, and—

(a) without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, where an Order in Council under this section makes provision for rendering enforceable against the Board any liabilities of the Durham Colliery Owners' Mutual Protection Association, it may make such provision with respect to the exercise of all or any of the powers conferred by any order under paragraph (16) of the Second Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, on a committee representative of that Association and an association of workmen as appears to His Majesty in Council to be requisite or expedient having regard to the provisions of the Order in Council; and

(b) without prejudice to the generality of the said provision or to the power conferred on His Majesty in Council by subsection (3) of section eighty-nine of the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, 1946, to provide for winding up compensation trusts, where an Order in Council under this section extinguishes liabilities of the trustees under such a trust it may, if it appears to His Majesty in Council to be requisite or expedient so to do, provide for the winding up of that trust;

and rules made under section four of the Workmen's Compensation (Coal Mines) Act, 1934, in relation to deposits made under that section by mutual indemnity associations may, notwithstanding the repeal of that Act by the said section eighty-nine, make provision for any matters consequential on the passing of this section.
(5) An Order in Council under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council thereunder.
(6) In this section—

(a) the expression 'compensation trust' means a trust established for the purposes of the Workmen's Compensation (Coal Mines) Act, 1934, and the expression 'mutual indemnity association' has the same meaning as in that Act; and

(b) the expression 'workmen's compensation liability' means a liability under the Workmen's Compensation Acts. 1925 to 1945, or the enactments repealed by the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, or the enactments repealed by the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, but does not include, in relation to any person, any such liability as aforesaid against which he is insured

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under a contract of insurance subscribed by a person other than a mutual indemnity association;

and references in this section to liabilities shall be construed as including references as well to contingent as to accrued liabilities."
The noble Lord said: It will be remembered that the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, during the debate on the Second Reading, suggested further consideration of a matter which he thought might be included in this Bill. This new clause is submitted in response to the suggestion he made. It is a very simple matter. For over twelve months there have been constant negotiations regarding what to do-with certain mutual indemnity societies who are responsible for the payment of compensation in various parts of the country. They were no longer associated directly with the industry, and they felt that they could not carry on the responsibility of paying compensation for too long a time. Somebody had to take the responsibility in their place. They approached the Board, and finally it was agreed that the new clause which appears on the Marshalled List could be accepted by both sides. It was submitted to the National Union of Mineworkers to see whether they had any objection, and they agreed unanimously to accept it. We have before us an agreed clause to do something which must be done in this industry to safeguard the compensation for each injured workman. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
LORD HAWKE: I thank the noble Lord for meeting the point which I made on Second Reading. I think it is only fitting that your Lordships' House should be the medium for an addition of humanity to this Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved, after Clause 4 to insert the following new clause:
Repeal of s. 23 of the Act of 1946
" . Section twenty-three of the principal Act (which imposes restrictions on the disposal
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of government stock issued to a company in or towards satisfaction of compensation in respect of a transfer to the Board of assets, property, rights and liabilities of the company), and, in section thirty-three of that Act, the words 'stock issued in exchange under subsection (4) of section twenty-three of this Act' in subsection (1), and the words ('other than inalienable stock') in subsection (6), are hereby repealed."
The noble Lord said: I think this is also an Amendment which the Opposition will accept, particularly because they will be able to say to me: "We told you so." It will be remembered that during the discussion on the 1946 Act, Section 23 attracted a great deal of attention in both Houses. The Opposition in both Houses felt that the precautionary measure being taken in Section 23 was unnecessary. It has now been discovered that they were right, and it is my pleasure to say that what they told us then we are prepared to do now. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
The Title:
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: The next three Amendments are all consequential. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
In the Title, line 3, leave out ("and")
In the Title, line 4, after ("contracts") insert ("and provide for the enforcement against them of certain workmen's compensation liabilities")
In the Title, line 9, after ("thirty-seven") insert ("and to repeal the provisions of that Act imposing restrictions on the disposal of government stock issued for compensation to companies").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.
House adjourned at seven minutes past six o'clock.