Sitting of 31 March 1949

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  COAL INDUSTRY

    Registration Arrangements (Publicity)
    Mr. Dumpletonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what steps he has taken to advise the public that they may change their coal merchants.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): My preliminary statement in the House on 27th January, 1949, was given considerable publicity in the Press and by the British Broadcasting Corporation. A further announcement giving full details of the arrangements was issued on 28th February and circulated to newspapers and news agencies. Broadcast announcements were made on 3rd and 10th March and advertisements inserted in most national newspapers and in more than 300 provincial newspapers between 7th and 26th March.

    Lower Grade Coal (Replacement)
    Mr Chetwyndasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the machinery for replacing inferior supplies of coal with satisfactory coal in the case of the consumer and merchant respectively.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have repeatedly emphasised that, owing to the shortage of cleaning plant and the urgent need to export good quality coal, it is inevitable at present that some of the lower grade coals should be allocated to the domestic market. There can therefore be no question of consumers or merchants having any general right to replacement of deliveries. In certain circumstances, however, replacement may be justifiable and practicable. A procedure for dealing with complaints was agreed between the
    1420
    Chamber of Coal Traders, the Co-operative Union and the National Coal Board last summer, and all merchants were informed of the arrangements. Merchants are asked to deal sympathetically with legitimate complaints from consumers, and should themselves make representations in the first place to the marketing manager for the area supplying the coal. Failing satisfaction, they can then appeal to the divisional marketing director and ultimately, through their trade associations, to the Board's headquarters.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it takes a very long time to go through this machinery and that months elapse between the consumer rejecting fuel and the supplier getting replacements?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have recently discussed this matter again with the merchants and the Coal Board. I invited them to review it, but they seemed to be perfectly satisfied with the arrangements.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the merchants have been receiving supplies of inferior coal for the last two years and have not yet been able to change their suppliers? Would he tell us what steps will be taken to enable those who want to change their source of supply to do it quickly?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Arrangements will be made for merchants to change their source of supply, I think from 1st May.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Can my right hon. Friend say why this inferior coal should have such a superior price; and should not the consumer who has a low grade quality pay a low grade price?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Broadly speaking, the price of coal is in accordance with its quality, but I think it is likely that in the course of the year further price adjustments will be made by the National Coal Board.

    Merchants' Stocks, Northern Region
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what system operates in the Northern region to reimburse coal merchants with stocks of coal delivered against licences.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In the Northern region a proportion of the regional bulk allocation is set aside to provide coal to meet the estimated requirements for licences granted by local fuel overseers. From the quantities which become available each week under this arrangement merchants can draw additional supplies on presentation of the licences to the National Coal Board. Should the quantities available be insufficient for the purpose, merchants must meet the deficiency from the stocks laid down in the summer or from their normal weekly allocation.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that merchants with licences are finding great difficulty in getting the requisite amount of coal to meet those licences, and would he not allow some other system such as that which prevails elsewhere—where the merchant gets a fixed percentage of his registered customers' supplies to meet licences—to operate in the North-East?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have always understood that the merchants in the Northern region preferred that particular arrangement, but I will certainly look into the possibility of a change.

  FUEL AND POWER

    Burning Oil (Quality)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether, in view of the poor quality of present-day supplies of paraffin, which result in the inefficient operation of incubators and brooders and the danger to stock from fumes and fires, he will allow petroleum distributors to market burning oils of better quality.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am prepared to consider proposals from the petroleum industry for the marketing of a better quality burning oil, provided this can be done without causing serious storage or supply difficulties.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the vital necessity to poultry producers of pure paraffin in order to maintain the poultry population, and might I say that his answer is an agreeable surprise and that all concerned, including myself, are grateful?

    Fuel Oil (Supplies)
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether oil can now be provided for those firms whose conversion from coal to oil burning was deferred.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir. The fuel oil position has now improved sufficiently to make it possible to supply those firms whose conversion to oil burning, though approved, had to be deferred in December, 1947. As regards new applications for fuel oil, these will be granted, for the time being, only where the use of oil has exceptional economic advantages or the use of alternative fuels is impracticable.

  EIRE CITIZENS (BRITISH REGISTRATION)
  Squadron-Leader Flemingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether an Eireann citizen, domiciled in the City of Manchester, may register as British before, or after, 18th April, 1949.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I presume that the hon. and gallant Member is referring to a notice under Section 2 (1) of the British Nationality Act, 1948, claiming on certain specified grounds to remain a British subject. Such a notice may be given at any time.
  Squadron-Leader Fleming: Would the right hon. Gentleman make it widely known, through the Press or otherwise, how the people concerned can obtain the necessary forms in order to apply for registration?
  Mr. Ede: There is no need to use a form at all. If a person desires to make certain that his request is made in the proper language, he should write to the Home Office, who will supply him with a draft letter, which can be copied and returned.
  Sir Ronald Ross: In the case of the British subject by birth—the person who has never lived in the Irish Free State, Eire or the Eireann Republic, but who

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  was born and lived in Ireland when it was part of the United Kingdom—does he need to do anything?
  Mr. Ede: I wish the hon. Gentleman would put that Question on the Paper.

  POLICE

    Oaksey Committee (Report)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the urgent need to improve the pay and other conditions of service of members of the Police Force, he can say when he hopes to receive the report of the Oaksey Committee and is it his intention to take prompt action on its findings.
    Mr. Ede: I hope to receive the report at a very early date, and, as I have already assured the House, there will be no delay on my part in considering the Committee's recommendations.
    Mr. Lipson: May I ask my right hon. Friend, in view of the concern among members of the police forces, whether by "an early date" he meant before Easter, and whether he intends to publish the report?
    Mr. Ede: I have already said some weeks ago that I expect to receive the report before Easter, and I know of no reason for revising that estimate of when I shall receive it. Naturally, the report will be published.

    Metropolitan Police Estimates (Precept)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will provide machinery to enable the local authorities concerned to have some say in framing the annual precept for the Metropolitan Police.
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir. This would involve the submission of the Metropolitan Police estimates to the local authorities before they are available to this House. I have, however, indicated that I am prepared to meet representatives of the local authorities and discuss the estimates with them after they have been submitted to Parliament.
    Mr. Hynd: Does my right hon. Friend realise the concern with which local
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    authorities in the London area have received the increased precept this year? Would it not be possible, when the estimates are being submitted to the local authorities, to have some kind of joint committee which could have some say in framing the precept? Is it not a sound principle—"no taxation without representation"?
    Mr. Ede: It is a perfectly sound principle, and my hon. Friend is vindicating it by putting this Question to me. I am responsible to this House for the Metropolitan Police, and the "representation" is secured by hon. Members of this House taking a lively interest in the matter, as they have done in recent weeks.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is not my right hon Friend aware that an important constitutional principle is here involved, in that the estimates on which the precept is based, have not yet been approved by this House or by anyone except my right hon. Friend, although, tomorrow morning the ratepayers of London will be called upon to pay this precept?
    Mr. Ede: A very important constitutional principle is involved. It is that laws passed by this House shall be carried out, and that is being done in this instance.

  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS (COMMITTEE)
  Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to announce the terms of reference of the committee to be set up to inquire into alleged cruelty to animals.
  Mr. Ede: Not yet, Sir, but I hope to be in a position to make a statement in the near future.
  Major Beamish: May I ask the Home Secretary by whom the terms of reference will be drafted, and whether this House will have an opportunity of debating them before a final decision is taken?
  Mr. Ede: I am drafting the terms of reference and they will be reported to the House.
  Major Beamish: May I further ask the Home Secretary, bearing in mind the great importance of keeping these terms

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  of reference as wide as possible, if he can say, for example, whether there will be inquiry into alleged cruelty to fish?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir. I think it is desirable that these terms of reference should be such that a report can be made and submitted to the House in a reasonably short space of time.

  FOREIGN VISAS (POLICE INFORMATION)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in how many cases in the last 12 months have requests from foreign Governments for information about British subjects trying to obtain visas been received by Scotland Yard; and in how many such cases has the information been given.
  Mr. Ede: The Metropolitan Police receive from time to time inquiries from foreign police forces on the question whether applicants for visas have criminal records in this country, and normally this information would be given. I regret that details are not available of the number of such requests received in the past twelve months.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Can my right hon. Friend confirm or deny, in connection with the recent refusal by the United States to give a visa to four British subjects to attend a conference in New York, if information was supplied by Scotland Yard to the State Department?
  Mr. Ede: It is not the practice, in any case, to supply information about the political opinions of persons to foreign police forces, and, if there were no criminal convictions, no information would be given, but if my hon. and gallant Friend will put down a Question about these four specific cases, I will see that an answer is provided for him.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that Members of Parliament may wish to obtain visas for the United States, and could he say if their fingerprints are taken and if those fingerprints are handed over to Scotland Yard?
  Mr. Ede: There are some Members of Parliament whose fingerprints we already have.
  Mr. Gallacher: May I ask the Home Secretary whether he is sure that, if a Question is put down about the four cases referred to, it will be accepted and answered?
  Mr. Ede: It is not for me to say what Questions will be accepted, but, if a Question is accepted, it will be answered.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Doctors' Lists
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health what estimate he has made for the purposes of the National Health Service of the number of patients which a doctor may reasonably be expected to see in a day or an hour.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): The number of patients whom a doctor can attend varies according to the circumstances of his practice and no precise estimate is possible.
    Mr. Bossom: The Minister told me last week that certain doctors have 4,000 patients on their panels, and that caused them to have more than they are able properly to attend to. What provision is he making to remedy that particular situation?
    Mr. Bevan: I think the hon. Gentleman will find that that is the maximum which the British Medical Association agreed for any doctor to have upon his list, but there are doctors with 4,000 people on their panels who have less patients to attend than some doctors with lists of only 3,000. It is not possible to make such a sweeping generalisation in this field.
    Mr. Bossom: Does not the Minister realise that certain doctors today are having a great number of patients whom they have to try to look after in an hour, and that the point of my Question was how many the Minister himself expected a doctor to look after in the space of one hour?
    Mr. Bevan: Obviously, the hon. Member ought to realise that the number of patients whom a doctor can attend to in an hour depends upon the physical condition of the patients whom he is seeing. Some patients require more time than others, and in some parts of the

    1427
    country, where the age of the population is higher, a higher percentage of people will need to see the doctor, so that it really is not possible to make a generalisation of the kind which the hon. Member desires.

    Opticians (Payment)
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Minister of Health if, in view of the fact that some opticians to whom he owes considerable sums under the National Health Service are being charged interest on overdue Income Tax, he will expedite payments of the sums owed.
    Mr. Bevan: I am unaware of any general difficulties, but if the hon. and gallant Member will give me the particulars of any cases he has in mind I will gladly look into the matter.
    Colonel Hutchison: When I send him the case, will the Minister also inquire whether the tax which is being claimed is not in part due on the money which he has failed to pay?
    Mr. Bevan: As the hon. and gallant Member has not yet brought the incident to my notice, it is not good enough to say that I have failed to pay in a case which he has not proved.

    Hearing Aids (Batteries)
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Minister of Health if, in view of the fact that the issue of deaf aid equipment under the National Health Service is taking longer than originally expected, he will now reconsider his previous decision and provide free batteries for existing holders of deaf aid equipment.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir.
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: Why?
    Mr. Bevan: Because we do not think it desirable to extend the deaf aid service which we are giving at the moment.

    Streptomycin
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in the production of streptomycin; and what increase there has been since July, 1948, in the number of hospitals where streptomycin treatment is normally available.
    Mr. Bevan: Production is now sufficient to cover all medical needs for which the use of the drug is reliably indicated and to provide small but increasing quantities for export. Further expansion is planned. Since July, 1948, the number of hospitals in England and Wales where streptomycin treatment is available has been increased from 30 to 220.

    Analgesia
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Minister of Health at what date he asked the Medical Research Council to solve, as quickly as possible, the problem of finding a safe and effective analgesic agent for midwifery, and to devise for its administration, apparatus that is light, simple and requires a minimum of maintenance.
    Mr. Bevan: There was no need for me to make that request because the Medical Research Council, as I was aware, took into consideration the recommendation made in this matter by the working party on midwives, and they have decided to set up a committee in accordance with that recommendation.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Can the Minister tell the House what stage the researches have now reached, and can he also give an assurance that he will press forward with the provision of transport and the present forms of analgesia in all districts, and not wait until new forms are known?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Lady knows that there is a very considerable change taking place in this field. A lot of alterations are being made in the apparatus, and I am hoping that before very long very much cheaper and more easily transportable apparatus will be produced. However, that will not be allowed to interfere with the provision of transport for midwives, which is proceeding at a much accelerated rate.
    Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some local authorities are using as an excuse for not providing any additional apparatus, or any apparatus at all, the possibility that at some unknown date new apparatus will become available, and will he make it perfectly plain that they must not delay providing apparatus on that account?
    Mr. Bevan: I think it is true that some local authorities might be tempted to postpone the use of this apparatus in the hope that a lighter one will be available. I have impressed upon them that they must not allow that consideration to influence them, and we are making very considerable progress in the provision of the apparatus.
    Dr. Broughtonasked the Minister of Health how many domiciliary midwives are employed by the West Riding County Council; and how many of them have now been trained to administer analgesia in childbirth.
    Mr. Bevan: Two hundred and sixty-nine whole-time and 117 part-time domiciliary midwives are employed by the West Riding County Council. Two hundred and thirty-three are trained to administer gas and air analgesia.
    Dr. Broughton: Could my right hon. Friend venture an opinion as to when all the domiciliary midwives serving in the West Riding will have completed their training in this important relief of suffering?
    Mr. Bevan: I cannot give an estimate, but I should have thought very soon indeed. Very remarkable progress is being made over practically the whole country, and I should think that we ought lo have all the midwives trained in two years at the outside.
    Mr. Peter Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Health which are the 11 local health authorities in which no analgesia is being used in the domiciliary midwifery service.
    Mr. Bevan: The number of county and county borough councils in question

    Name of Country or County Borough

    Number of domiciliary midwives qualified to administer gas and air analgesia

    Position as to gas and air apparatus

    Merioneth County

    4

    3 sets on order.

    Bath County Borough

    3

    1 set available. Ministry in touch with Council.

    Burnley County Borough

    2

    4 sets being ordered.

    Chester County Borough

    Nil, but first one now in training.

    Ministry in touch with Council on acquisition.

    Dudley County Borough

    10

    ditto.

    Merthyr Tydfil County Borough

    1

    5 sets on order.

    Nottingham County Borough

    11

    6 sets of apparatus now obtained: further sets to be acquired. Ministry in touch with Council.

    St. Helens County Borough

    6

    Ministry in touch with Council on acquisition.

    is now eight. With permission, I will circulate the names and other particulars in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Could not the right hon. Gentleman read out the names of the eight counties who have done absolutely nothing about this at all?
    Mr. Bevan: As there has been a reduction in one week of three, and as very considerable progress is being made—very much more than has been made in the course of the last 10 years, and very much more in six months than was made in three years before the war by the Opposition when in office—I hardly think the hon. Gentleman ought to hold up local authorities to contumely in this matter.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am not holding up local authorities to contumely, but if the right hon. Gentleman claims that he has power to impose this duty on local authorities, what has he been doing?
    Mr. Bevan: The answer is—more in three months than was done in five years by the party opposite.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the Minister aware that, as this fight for the provision of analgesia for every mother in the country has been a fight against the prejudice of the entire community, it is quite unnecessary to make party political points?
    Mr. Bevan: I am indeed happy to hear that there is no desire to make party prejudice and capital out of this matter, but the fact is that if there is any prejudice against analgesia, it is on the side of the party opposite and not on this side.
    Following are the particulars:
    Mr. P. Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Health how many midwives are practising in Monmouthshire; how many of them are provided with motor cars; and whether motor car allowances are paid to them.
    Mr. Bevan: There are 85 domiciliary midwives employed by the County Council; 24 have their own cars and are paid a mileage allowance.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If the right hon. Gentleman has power to give these instructions to local authorities, why does he not do something about the recommendation of the working party which said that every midwife ought to be provided with a motor car and the means to run it?
    Mr. Bevan: In fact, steps are being taken at the present time to organise the provision of motor cars and the Monmouth County Council is organising a special scheme for this purpose. The number of cases in which mothers have received analgesia at home was lifted in Monmouth last year from the 1947 figure of 14.3 per cent. to 21.6 per cent., and the figures are increasing at as high a rate as that at which it is possible to train midwives.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: While the right hon. Gentleman's answer does not seem to have much to do with the Question, would he not agree that even his answer means that three out of every four mothers get no relief whatever?
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, but it also means that we are providing for the mothers of Monmouthshire the possibilities of analgesia which were withheld from them by the party opposite.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Health how many midwives are operating in Watford; how many of them possess a motor car; and what means are employed to transport the gas and air apparatus and the midwife to the mother.
    Mr. Bevan: There are five domiciliary midwives. They have one motor car and the County Council are obtaining a second one for them. Transport is by car, cycle or ambulance vehicle. In 1948 there were 321 domiciliary confinements in Watford. Gas and air analgesia was given in 219 of them.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I cannot see from the right hon. Gentleman's answer quite what is meant about transport by one motor car or by bicycle. Surely some better arrangements could be made in the case of this local authority to enable this apparatus to be provided for the mothers?
    Mr. Bevan: Indeed, it is quite correct that there is a very large increase in the number of cases of analgesia in the Watford area. For instance, I am sure hon. Members would like to know that in 1939, after three years, there were 53 cases of analgesia, while in 1948, after six months of the Health Service, it was at the rate of 1,126 in a year.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: As the right hon. Gentleman appears to have a certain licence in his answers, so far as their relevance is concerned, may I ask him to look very seriously at the report of his own working party? I ask these questions because the midwives ask me to put them. They are working under intolerable conditions which would not be accepted in the ordinary way. Can they be provided with some mechanical transport so that they can do their job?
    Mr. Bevan: I have explained that the scheme for the transport of analgesic apparatus is being continued and on the 21st of this month—I think that is the date—a circular was sent out to the local health authorities informing them how they can obtain priority for motor cars for this purpose. I hope that before very long ambulances or motor cars will be available all over the country for this purpose and when we have provided them I hope we shall not be accused by the Opposition of wanton extravagance.
    Dr. Segalasked the Minister of Health whether a reserve pool of midwives can be made available in certain areas during periods when regular midwives are overworked.
    Mr. Bevan: This is a question of organisation of the local service which must be decided by the responsible local authority having regard to local circumstances and the supply of midwives.
    Dr. Segal: Is my right hon. Friend aware that cases of bad timing may occur when a midwife may have as many as seven confinements on her hands at a given time; and would it not be desir-

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    able to recruit an emergency pool among married midwives who may be willing to volunteer their services?
    Mr. Bevan: I think that it is very difficult for me, and I am sure for the House, to know what the hon. Member means by "recruit"—whether all over the country or in particular places. It is for those who are responsible for the administration of the service to make what arrangements they can in their area; and to talk of a general pool in this matter is entirely beside the point.
    Dr. Segal: Will my right hon. Friend at least seek to encourage the formation of a pool in certain areas where these difficulties have arisen?
    Mr. Bevan: If the hon. Member will show me where the difficulties have arisen, we can then apply ourselves to the facts.
    Dr. Segalasked the Minister of Health what is the lowest cost of apparatus for the administration of trilene analgesia in obstetrics; whether he is satisfied that it is sufficiently portable; and whether any areas will now be designated as trial areas for intensive scientific investigation into the suitability of this apparatus for use by midwives in domiciliary cases.
    Mr. Bevan: There are several types of apparatus, all of which are portable. I understand that the lowest price of the types on the market is about £7. The suitability of existing apparatus for use by midwives in domiciliary cases will, no doubt, be among the matters investigated by the expert committee appointed by the Medical Research Council.
    Dr. Segal: In view of the very low cost of this particular apparatus and the fact that it is easily portable, would it not be advisable to equip every midwife with this trilene apparatus and encourage her to use it wherever possible?
    Mr. Bevan: I understand from the information at my disposal that it is not yet certain that it is safe for midwives to use the trilene apparatus without assistance, and I certainly would not advise this course.
    Mrs. Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that trilene is usually conceded to
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    be the most popular, the most simple and the most easily transportable analgetic and that its use by midwives has been prohibited by the Royal College of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians; and in those circumstances does he feel it advisable that he should counter a decision which has obviously been taken in the interest of the mothers themselves?
    Mr. Bevan: I have already pointed out that I think it is undesirable for this analgesia to be given without assistance. I mean by that without specialised technical assistance, and I certainly would not override the technical advice given by the Royal College of Gynaecologists.

    Spectacles
    Mr. Gerald Williamsasked the Minister of Health in view of the fact that it takes about four months to make up spectacles to a prescription, what steps he is taking to reduce this time.
    Mr. Bevan: Production of spectacles has increased by 52 per cent. since July, 1948. Further expansions of lens and prescription manufacturing capacity will be effective this year.
    Mr. Williams: Is the Minister aware that in some cases it takes as long as six months, and as the suggestion is made in a later Question on the Order Paper today that more priority should be given to children, that time may be lengthened to seven or eight months? It is a very serious matter, because people's sight may change in the meantime.
    Mr. Bevan: I have asked the opticians to try to deal with cases of special urgency as quickly as possible, and these, of course, would include children who need spectacles badly. There is an inevitable delay in this matter because no one could have estimated such a huge demand for spectacles as we have received.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Does the Minister mean that enterprising aliens who come to this country in order to get free spectacles and free teeth have to wait as long as four months for them?
    Mr. Bevan: I should have thought it would hardly have paid an alien to spend four months in Great Britain in order to get a pair of spectacles.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether he will give special

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    priority to all children in respect of applications for spectacles in view of the injury which their eyesight may suffer through early neglect.
    Mr. Bevan: Opticians are doing what is possible to give priority to specially urgent cases and such arrangements would certainly extend to urgent cases among children.
    Mr. Janner: While appreciating the splendid work that ophthalmic opticians are doing in supplying spectacles, would my right hon. Friend ask them, as infants really need preference, to give priority to infants wherever possible?
    Mr. Bevan: If the hon. Member has any instance of children who are unable to obtain priority, I will certainly attend to it.
    Captain John Crowder: What facilities have opticians through the right hon. Gentleman's Department for repairing spectacles broken by children? Do they have to go through the whole scheme again and have their eyes tested, or can simple repairs be made?
    Mr. Bevan: They can have simple repairs made.

    Spa Treatment
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Health if he will make available under the Health Service, out-patient spa treatment to patients of other hospitals than the spa hospitals when such treatment has been advised by the specialist.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir. I am advised that spa treatment should only be given under the supervision of the appropriate specialist at the spa hospital.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Is the Minister aware that there is a large number of people waiting for spa treatment; that spa hospitals are full, and that this treatment has been recommended by specialists who are capable of prescribing it, and could not he do something to make this treatment available to the people requiring it without their having to go to the spa hospitals?
    Mr. Bevan: I understand that the Question on the Paper is about special
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    treatment and special hospitals. If the hon. and gallant Member has treatment for rheumatism in mind at other hospitals, that is now provided under specialist care.
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Minister of Health what facilities there are in Wales for spa treatment under the National Health Service; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Bevan: I understand that the regional hospital board have made arrangements for hospitals at or near Llandrindod Wells to use the spa facilities there.

    Hospital Maternity Cases (Visiting Facilities)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that in some hospitals husbands visiting their wives and newly born babies are informed that they can see the new child on one occasion only; and what arrangements can be made for fathers to see their new offspring more often.
    Mr. Bevan: While I hope that all reasonable facilities will always be given, the arrangements at individual hospitals must be left to each hospital management committee and board of governors.
    Mr. Janner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in one hospital there was a refusal to allow a father to see his child, and that the reason given for that was that the nurse in the hospital knew much more about the progress of the child than did the father?
    Mr. Bevan: If my hon. Friend will give me particulars of the case, I will have it inquired into, but I think hon. Members must rest upon the assumption that the hospital committees are at least as much concerned about this matter as we are ourselves.
    Mrs. Mann: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is rather a shock to an infant to look upon its father, and does not he think that, in this modern age when the interest of the child is paramount, the child should be considered first?
    Mr. Bevan: I am not certain that the infant is always able to establish the identity of its father.

    South-Western Hospital (Proposed Transfer)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement on the reasons for the proposed transfer of the South-Western Hospital to St. Thomas's Hospital.
    Mr. Bevan: I have not yet received the final views of the regional hospital board about this proposal and I cannot for the present make any statement.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Lambeth group hospital management committee is strongly opposed to the whole project and that the delay in arriving at a decision, which has now extended over a period of at least six months, is denying very much-needed hospital beds to acute cases and chronic sick in the neighbourhood?
    Mr. Bevan: It is not correct to say there has been a delay of six months. It was only on 5th July last year that the regional hospital board was statutorily set up to re-organise the hospitals in the area and it is quite unreasonable to imagine that this complicated re-organisation could be done almost overnight.

    Hospital Patients (Comforts)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that hospital patients in former Public Assistance institutions, are no longer receiving a weekly allowance of sweets or tobacco; and if he will make arrangements to restore these comforts to them.
    Mr. Bevan: I can see no justification for differentiating in favour of patients in this type of hospital; but all hospital management committees can, of course, provide comforts from their own funds, which are intended for purposes of this kind.
    Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the local management committee whom I consulted about this matter said they were acting in accordance with the Ministry of Health circular; that many of the people concerned are chronic sick who are sleeping in the same beds and building as they occupied some months ago and that in the same building able-bodied people, by arrangement with the Ministry of National
    1438
    Insurance, are receiving these comforts; and will he look at the matter again to see if, by arrangement with his right hon. Friend, some similar arrangements can be made for chronic sick people?
    Mr. Bevan: I am sure that the Question and answer will come to the attention of the committees concerned and that they will see that they are in error.

    Emergency Cases (Beds)
    Dr. Segalasked the Minister of Health whether he will arrange for at least one bed for the admission of emergency cases to be reserved nightly in all hospitals of over 200 beds.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir. Hospitals normally reserve the number of beds shown by experience to be needed, and in emergency put up extra beds.
    Dr. Segal: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a great deficiency of beds for acute emergency cases and many lives have been endangered through lack of these facilities?
    Mr. Bevan: It is certainly true that there is more demand for beds today than there was before, and that there are many more beds to meet the demand. What is now happening is that we are hearing of these cases where formerly we did not.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Is it not the case that before this Act came into force no hospital in London, or anywhere else, refused emergency sick cases? Now that it is the Minister's responsibility, is he aware that, in London particularly, medical men are harassed and have to be on the telephone for over an hour every day trying to get sick people into hospital, and will he go into the whole matter again?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Gentleman is inaccurate in his statement. It was often very difficult to get emergency cases into hospital. What is now happening is that there is fixed responsibility for this whereas formerly responsibility was diffused and no one knew about the complaints.
    Dr. Segal: Is my right hon. Friend aware that certain emergencies can arise where an hour or two's delay may mean a matter of life or death? Beds ought to be made available for this particular type of emergency.
    Mr. Bevan: They are made available. The hon. Member is unaware of the situation. All vacant beds in London are filled up by the end of the day. Where there are emergency cases, emergency beds are established in order to deal with them. There will inevitably be one or two instances of delay, and we will try to cut down that delay to the lowest possible margin.

  HOUSING

    Leicester
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory condition of many houses in Leicester which are still being occupied, although condemned before the war as being unfit for human habitation; and whether he will encourage the erection of houses on the adjoining sites and on the sites of those condemned houses if they are demolished.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir. The local authority propose to redevelop the areas, building new houses on the sites when cleared, as circumstances permit.
    Mr. Janner: Will my right hon. Friend do what he can to remedy this matter as speedily as possible, because in Leicester itself people in one of these houses are being told that the condition of the house is such that they cannot get sanitary certificates to enable them to obtain a reduction in their rents for want of repair? Is he aware that the house is condemned, and yet, at the same time, they have nowhere else to go?
    Mr. Bevan: In connection with representations from the City of Leicester, I would say that the only limitation on the plans of that local authority, as with every other authority in the country, is the number of building workers available, and I have not heard that there are any unemployed building workers in Leicester.

    Salford
    Mr. Hardyasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that 30,000 dwelling houses in Salford have no bath or hot water system, and have to rely upon a coal or coke fire; and what steps he is taking to provide this need.
    Mr. Bevan: I am aware of the position. I hope that the Housing Bill at present
    1440
    before the House will facilitate the improvement of the houses in appropriate cases.
    Mr. Hardy: Am I to understand that the new Housing Bill will allow £100 to be spent on houses no older than 30 years? If that is so, may I inform the Minister that there are numbers of houses in the industrial areas which are 40 and 50 years old which might be dealt with in a similar manner?
    Mr. Bevan: It depends entirely upon the condition, and not necessarily upon the age of the house whether it would qualify for the grant under the Bill now before the House. Up to £100 can be spent at present, which is the limit of licence-free repair.

    Local Loans (Interest)
    Mr. Bartonasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the high rates of interest still being paid by local authorities on outstanding housing loans, and if he contemplates any action to obtain a reduction and thus enable many local authorities to ease the burden on their working-class tenants.
    Mr. Bevan: I am aware that outstanding housing loans of local authorities carry interest at varying rates. The interest factor was of course taken into account at the time the Exchequer subsidy was fixed under the different Housing Acts. I have no power to alter the terms of the loans.

    Agricultural Workers
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Minister of Health how many permanent and temporary houses have been let to agricultural workers in England and Wales since 1st April, 1945; and for how many of these the higher subsidies have been paid.
    Mr. Bevan: On the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Housing Return. The answer to the second part is 7,274.

  FLOOD PREVENTION (SALFORD)
  Mr. Hardyasked the Minister of Health what steps are being taken to prevent flooding at Salford, similar to the

  1441
  flood in 1946; and what financial assistance he intends to give to Salford towards the estimated cost of £1 million prepared by the Mersey and Irwell Catchment Board.
  Mr. Bevan: I understand that the Mersey and Irwell Catchment Board have a scheme in preparation for the relief of flooding at Salford, which would be considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries for drainage grant. It would be open to the Salford Corporation to make a contribution towards the cost of the scheme, but I have no power to make a grant to them in aid of such contribution.

  REFUSE DISPOSAL, LONDON
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Health if, in view of the unsightly dumps of refuse disfiguring the countryside, especially in the area to the East of London, he will take steps to ensure that the London County Council dispose of their refuse by other means, such as by burning it or by dumping it into the sea.
  Mr. Bevan: The L.C.C. do not dispose of London refuse. This is the responsibility of the Metropolitan borough councils and the problems involved are at present under consideration.
  Sir W. Smithers: May I ask the Minister which authority disposes of his refuse? May I ask him, also, whether he will take a trip from the City of London to Southend-on-Sea to see acres and acres of land devastated by these refuse dumps? Will he do something about this matter?
  Mr. Bevan: This is indeed a problem of very long standing and we are doing our best to deal with it.

  NATIONAL RECONSTRUCTION
  Mr. Dumpletonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the achievements of the British people in the common effort towards national reconstruction since the end of the war, and in view of the tasks yet to be accomplished, he will consult with religious leaders with a view to arranging a day for national thanksgiving and rededication.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I have considered my hon. Friend's suggestion but cannot see my way to adopt it.
  Mr. Dumpleton: Is the Prime Minister aware that if he could favourably consider this suggestion it would be very widely appreciated in the country; and would he bear in mind that May Day this year falls on a Sunday and that that would be a very appropriate day?
  Brigadier Medlicott: Is the Prime Minister sure that his decision in the matter is not influenced by the growing reluctance of himself and his friends to admit that anyone outside the Labour Party has ever done anything for humanity?
  Mr. Henry Strauss: When the right hon. Gentleman considers this matter, will he also consider whether the same day could be a day of repentance in which Ministers could do penance for describing their fellow citizens as lower than vermin?
  Mr. Gallacher: If the Prime Minister should consider this matter with the Tories and the religious leaders, will he see that the dollar god of America gets due reverence?

  ARMED FORCES (PAY AND CONDITIONS)
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Prime Minister if he will consider the setting up of an all-party committee to investigate the pay and conditions of officers and other ranks in the Armed Forces, in view of the present unsatisfactory position which is resulting in a lowering of morale of those already in the Services and the failure of the recruiting campaign.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Cooper: Since the Service man has no independent trade union to represent his case, does not the Prime Minister agree that confidence would be restored in the Forces if it were seen that such an independent committee as that suggested in the Question had been set up to investigate the matter, in view of the loss of faith which has occurred because the new pay code in some cases shows an actual loss?
  The Prime Minister: I do not accept the hon. Member's allegations. I am quite sure it would be entirely wrong to have the pay and conditions of officers considered by an all-party committee of this House. That would be quite wrong. The Government must take responsibility in this matter.
  Earl Winterton: In view of the fact that this is not a party political matter, as shown in every defence Debate and in Debates on all three Services, could the Prime Minister give some assurance that there is some committee or some body in the Government at a high level considering this urgent question, especially in view of the fact that Ministers have said they are giving consideration to it?
  The Prime Minister: This matter is under constant consideration.
  Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: In view of the failure of the recruiting campaign, which has been referred to, and the number of Regular officers seeking to retire, would the Prime Minister say what action he is proposing to take to put the matter right?
  The Prime Minister: That is another matter. The hon. Member's assumption that it is necessarily entirely a matter of pay, is incorrect.

  EMPLOYMENT (ORDERS, REVOCATION)
  Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Labour if he will now state which of the orders, made under Regulation 58A or 58AA, he proposes to revoke; and which he proposes to consolidate.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I have today made an Order revoking the 13 orders, set out in my reply to the hon. Member on 8th March, as being partly in operation or as not being operated. I have also formally revoked all registration orders relating to specific dates in the past. I find on consideration of the remaining orders that there is very little scope for consolidation, and no useful purpose would be served by such small measure of it as might be possible.
  Sir J. Mellor: While congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the revocation, may I ask him why the view of the Ministry has been changed since the Parliamentary Secretary said on 10th March
  1444
  that it was proposed to consolidate the remaining orders into one or two orders?
  Mr. Isaacs: Because in approaching the subject with that object in mind, we found that we could do without some, and one or two of the orders were due to expire at the end of the year, so we thought it best to sweep away those we could, leaving the others.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Feedingstuffs (Dollar Purchases)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with a view to strengthening the domestic economy of this country and improving the health of the people, he will now authorise the spending of Marshall Aid dollars in purchasing feedingstuffs for livestock, since the present shortage is retarding increased home food production.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): Supplies of animal feedingstuffs from non-dollar sources have so far proved sufficient to meet the requirements of the livestock rationing scheme at current ration levels, including the extension of the scheme to include new entrants to pig and poultry keeping and the special bonus issues for pigs and poultry announced in November, 1948. Negotiations for the sterling purchase of feedingstuffs are now proceeding. If it should become necessary at a later date to consider the purchase of feedingstuffs from North America for dollars owing to their non-availability in other markets for sterling, we shall be prepared to contemplate the possibility of using some dollars for that purpose. The possibility of making further improvements in ration scales is dependent on the longer term prospects of supplies of feedingstuffs from all sources, including home production.
    Mr. De la Bère: Does the hon. Gentleman really think it right to give an answer of that sort to the House? Is he not fully aware that every farmer in the country knows that the difficulty of producing more beef and pork and of keeping livestock is the shortage of feedingstuffs? In view of the shortage

    1445
    of food throughout the country, is it not time that Ministers who make remarks like that should be asked to resign forthwith? The hon. Gentleman has no right to give an answer like that.
    Mr. Jay: I think that the hon. Member does not quite realise that if we can buy additional feedingstuffs with sterling, we shall not be in a position to buy less food as a result. If we spend more dollars on feedingstuffs we shall have less food—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and in those circumstances it is more sensible to try to buy feedingstuffs for sterling first.
    Mr. De la Bère: Ridiculous.
    Mr. Mathers: Does my hon. Friend's answer mean that requests for feedingstuffs which have recently been refused will now be granted?
    Mr. Jay: I am not quite sure which requests my right hon. Friend has in mind.
    Hon. Members: Any of them.
    Mr. Mathers: Requests for feeding poultry.
    Mr. Jay: What I said was that if it were impossible to obtain additional feedingstuffs from sterling sources, we should consider using dollars for that purpose. I was not referring to individual applications for feedingstuffs in this country.
    Earl Winterton: Can the hon. Gentleman say, in view of the fact that he stated that there is no demand for this, why it is that every branch of the National Farmers' Union and every branch of the Central Landowners' Association is complaining of the lack of feedingstuffs? Are they right, or is he?
    Mr. Jay: I did not say there was no demand, or anything like it. I said that supplies, so far, had proved sufficient for the present rationing scales.
    Mr. Turton: Has the hon. Gentleman read the reply of the Minister of Food saying that he is having to store feedingstuffs at the present time, and that no more is coming in for some considerable time? Will the hon. Gentleman check up between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Food to find out what has happened to the feedingstuffs?
    Mr. Jay: Of course, it is the case that we had very large supplies from Argentina and Russia last year. The supplies
    1446
    coming at the moment are not so large, and it is only prudent in those circumstances, to store them against the demands of the coming months.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Is the hon. Gentleman really going to suggest to the House and the country that anyone is satisfied with the present rationing scales? Is he suggesting that the present rationing scales are sacrosanct and ought not to be increased if we can get more feedingstuffs?
    Mr. Jay: No. I said nothing of the kind, as the right hon. Gentleman will see if he will read my answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow.

    Tractors (Exports to France)
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make available to France, through the Intra-European Payments Scheme an extra sum of sterling on the understanding that this sterling is spent on the purchase of British tractors.
    Mr. Jay: No, Sir.
    Mr. Edelman: Since more tractors for France mean more employment in Britain, and, in the long run, more food for Britain, will my hon. Friend consider providing alternative credit facilities?
    Mr. Jay: We have considered that point very carefully indeed for the reasons my hon. Friend gave, but we have already made very large sums of sterling available to the French Government under the European Payments Scheme, and there must be some limit to free gifts made in this sort of way.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: In view of the serious situation created in Coventry, and the unemployment throughout the Midlands, what action does the Administration mean to take to raise employment in the motor industry?
    Mr. Jay: There is, of course, other action, such as the opening of export markets in many other countries. This problem does not depend simply on exports to France.

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the present Purchase Tax on gas heaters is 66 per cent. while it is 100 per cent. on electric heaters which

    1447
    is adversely affecting many citizens in council houses where only electricity is available; and, in view of the necessity of having hot water in every home, if he will abolish this tax.
    Mr. Jay: My hon. Friend will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. and learned Friend's Budget Statement.
    Mr. Freeman: In view of the fact that these things are now really necessities, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer give this matter special consideration next Wednesday?

    North Atlantic Pact
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the increased expenditure likely to be incurred next year by our commitments under the Atlantic Pact.
    Mr. Jay: It would be premature to attempt any such estimate at this stage.
    Mr. Hughes: Has the Treasury given any estimate to the Foreign Secretary before he signs the Atlantic Pact, or is he going to sign a blank cheque—the Atlantic Pact—without any idea of what it will cost?
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the cost as much as that of the "demob" clothing?

    National Land Fund (Properties)
    Mr. H. D. Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many properties have now been accepted by the National Land Fund; to whom have they been transferred; what costs has the fund incurred to date; and what expenditure has the fund incurred in acquiring tracts of country for public use, and in assisting the National Trust and other appropriate bodies.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): Seven properties have been accepted, at a total cost of about £275,000, of which five have been or are about to be transferred to the National Trust, one to the Youth Hostels Association and one to the Minister of Agriculture. This expenditure has served the purposes mentioned in the last part of the Question, but there is no statutory power to use the Fund
    1448
    for paying grants or for acquiring land other than land offered in lieu of Death Duties.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that the National Trust receives no annual grant from the State?

    Students (Currency Allowances)
    Captain John Crowderasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now prepared to grant the necessary currency to students in this country to enable them to attend universities or schools in France or Switzerland.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Currency is already provided for students to attend full-time courses at universities abroad. Limited facilities for education at schools in Switzerland, under arrangements agreed upon with the Swiss authorities, have also been in force for some time. So far as France is concerned, my right hon. and learned Friend is now prepared to make reasonable amounts of currency available to enable children to be educated at schools in that country.
    Captain Crowder: Could the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication of what the figures are? He said "reasonable amounts" in his answer.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: That will, of course, have to be a matter for arrangement.

  CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS
  Mr. Keelingasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many civil servants who had become established after a period of temporary service retired last year; and by what total sum the annual pensions payable to them would have been increased if the whole instead of half of their temporary service had counted for pension.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: This information is not available, and its collection would involve disproportionate expenditure of time and labour.
  Mr. Keeling: But would the right hon. Gentleman not promise that these and other figures will be available for the Committee considering the Superannuation Bill?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: It is very difficult to form an estimate. It would take a lot of time to get out the figures even for the limited period referred to in the Question. Obviously, when we reach the Committee stage of the Superannuation Bill this matter will be discussed, and then I shall do my best to give the Committee all the information I can collect.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: In order to avoid hereafter the necessity for asking for the supply of such figures, would the Financial Secretary undertake on the Superannuation Bill now before Parliament to get rid of the system under which temporary service does not count for pension?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: That, of course, is quite another question.

  EDUCATION

    Human Rights Declaration
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Education what action he proposes to take to publicise the text of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in schools and other educational institutions in this country, in view of Article D.1, by which all member States are recommended to use every means in their power to do so.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): It is for local education and school authorities to decide whether any particular matter shall be given publicity in schools. I am, however, considering how best to bring the Declaration to the notice of schools and other educational establishments, so that teaching about it may be incorporated in their normal curriculum.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: At the same time as the right hon. Gentleman brings this to the notice of schools, will he also bring to their notice the answer given by the Minister of Labour on Tuesday, that while this country is observing this Declaration in spirit it is breaking it in the letter?

    Children (Theatrical Employment)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Education what steps are being taken to improve the working conditions of children in theatrical employment.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The licensing of children to take part in entertainments is governed by Section 22 of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, as amended by the Education Act, 1944, and the regulations made thereunder. This and related questions are being re-viewed by a departmental committee set up, in consultation with myself, by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Has my right hon. Friend any information as to when the report of this departmental committee will be available, or when action will be taken on it after it becomes available? What is he doing in the meantime to prevent these children from having to work in squalid conditions scarcely fit for animals, referred to in the recent report submitted to the committee?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Knowledge of these conditions was the reason for the setting up of the committee. I think that before we are asked what action we are taking we should await the committee's decision.

    School Journeys
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Minister of Education what additional permanent hostel, camp or hotel accommodation is being provided this year for the use of organised school journey parties in England and Wales.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I regret that I have no information available. Arrangements for school journeys are within the discretion of local education authorities and do not require the approval of my Department.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is the Minister making inquiries of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the use of properties taken over by the National Land Fund in this connection?
    Mr. Tomlinson: No.

    Secondary Schools (Local Surveys)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Minister of Education to what extent social and economic local surveys are being carried out as part of the courses in the various types of secondary schools; and whether travelling expenses necessarily incurred,

    1451
    especially in rural areas, in carrying out these projects are completely met by the local authorities and rank for grant.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Local surveys are undertaken by many secondary schools. The expenses involved, including that of any necessary travelling, are met by the local education authorities who receive grant on their expenditure.

    Welsh Joint Education Committee
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Education whether he will appoint at least one representative of Monmouthshire to the Joint Education Committee for Wales in view of the special educational problems existing in the county.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The representative members of the Welsh Joint Education Committee are appointed by the county and county borough councils and include eight appointed by Monmouthshire.
    Mr. Freeman: Will the Minister see that there is representation by one teacher outside those members nominated by the County Council?
    Mr. Tomlinson: As I have acceded to eight times the number asked for by the hon. Member, I think that he can trust me in one particular.

    Comprehensive Schools
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education whether he will issue an instruction to local educational authorities who have established comprehensive schools that children in those areas are not to be debarred from taking the county examination for grammar school education.
    Mr. Tomilnson: No, Sir. Comprehensive schools are intended to provide all forms of secondary education.
    Commander Maitland: in view of the fact that the 1944 Act places very great importance on the right of parents to choose the sort of free education that
    1452
    they want for their children, will be reconsider this matter and ask the local authority to give more consideration to the desires of parents as to how their children shall be educated?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I would point out that if a parent considers himself aggrieved as a consequence of the setting up of a comprehensive school, he can appeal to the Minister; but I do not think the hon. Member should ask me to prejudge a case which has not arisen.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Does not the Minister realise that this means that children in areas where there are some comprehensive schools, are debarred from going to a grammar school; that this is not equality of opportunity, but prevents the child of poor parents from having the chance to get to a university? They cannot get to the university.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The original answer intimated that a comprehensive school is expected to provide all forms of secondary education.
    Mr. Lindsay: But it does not. That is the point.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: It does.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Only three of these schools have been organised within the last 12 months, and even the hon. Gentleman cannot decide upon the experiment in that time. It has to run for at least five years before anyone can say with confidence what can and what cannot be done. Many children have gone from similar types of schools to universities.
    Mr. Lindsay: I must press this point. It is perfectly well known that these schools are of such a size that it is impossible to have a proper sixth form, and that these children are deprived of the opportunity of reaching the university, and that is unfair.
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is exactly for the reason given by the hon. Gentleman that I have asked the committee to look again to see that the opportunity is given. A school can remain a comprehensive school and give all the opportunities for which the hon. Gentleman is asking.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Would the Leader of the House be good enough to tell us the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. I am sure we are all glad to see the right hon. Gentleman back safe and sound.
The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 4th April—Report and Third Reading of the Agricultural Marketing Bill;
Second Reading of the Agricultural Wages (Scotland) Bill [Lords]; and
Consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Juries Bill.
Tuesday, 5th April—Supply (10th Allotted Day); Debate on the meat situation.
Wednesday, 6th April—My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget and will review the economic situation of the country in relation to the White Paper recently published on the Economic Survey for 1949.
Thursday, 7th April—General Debate on the Budget Resolutions and on the economic situation, which, I may now mention for the convenience of the House, will be continued on Monday, 11th April, and brought to a conclusion on Tuesday, 12th April.
Friday, 8th April—Second Reading of the Coast Protection Bill [Lords] and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Mr. Eden: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind welcome. With reference to Tuesday's Debate on the meat situation, it is not in the minds of those on this side of the House to wish to discuss the detailed negotiations now proceeding with Argentina, which we realise might be embarrassing. What we do want to discuss is the general meat situation and such questions as the supply of feedingstuffs.
Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I am sure the House will appreciate the indication that the Opposition do not propose to deal with matters which might conceivably be embarrassing in the present negotiations.
Mr. Eden: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that, certainly for the last 25 years, the Budget statement has always been made in this House on a Monday or Tuesday. Would he be good enough to tell us why this time it has to be made on a Wednesday?
Mr. Morrison: It is a most extraordinary thing that this point has only just arisen, because when I announced the date of the Budget introduction a fortnight ago, nobody said a word, and I distinctly said Wednesday. The reason is that the Chancellor has been very heavily pressed; as the House knows, he had to go to Paris on various negotiations. He is hard pressed to get his Budget statement ready at the approximate date, and he did want this slightly longer time in order that he might be fully equipped to deal with the matter.
Mr. Eden: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not consider this matter a little further. As I have said, this precedent has been followed by other Governments, including Labour Governments, and it has the advantage that the Budget Resolutions can immediately follow the Budget statement instead of being divided between two weeks, as is now proposed. Would it not be a good thing to keep to this precedent, so long accepted by all parties in this House?
Mr. Morrison: Well, whatever might have been done earlier, I doubt whether it could be followed now. It would not be possible at this stage for the Chancellor to bring his statement forward 24 hours. There is the additional consideration that it so happens that by the calendar, the Budget has to come very quickly after the financial year, and this extra day will be of great value, coming so early after the end of the financial year.
Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew: Does the right hon. Gentleman think he will be able to find time to discuss the accounts for the Member's Fund, which were presented about a month ago? As he probably has seen, the reserve is now up to £62,000, and the money spent on our 29 beneficiaries last year was about a quarter of our income. Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that it should be discussed at some convenient time?
Mr. Morrison: I am sure the House has seen that report with some

1455
interest. We are all very glad that the fund is being looked after so well, and we are grateful to the hon. and gallant Member and his colleagues for the work they are doing. However, I am afraid that I could not find time for a Debate on that matter, although I take this opportunity of suggesting to hon. Members that the report of the Committee is certainly well worth study and attention.
Mr. Oliver: Will my right hon. Friend say when an opportunity will be given to discuss the report on mining subsidence? This is a matter which interests some scores of local authorities and many thousands of people living in the mining areas.
Mr. Morrison: I appreciate the importance and difficulty of the matter to which my hon. Friend refers, but I doubt if I could find time for discussion at the moment. It might conceivably come up in connection with Supply. I understand that my hon. Friends from mining constituencies are very anxious to discuss this with Ministers and I am doing my very best to make the necessary arrangements.
Mr. Eric Fletcher: Is the Leader of the House prepared to provide facilities for a discussion in the House on the Report of the U.N.E.S.C.O. conference at Beirut, which has recently been published?
Mr. Morrison: I am aware of that Report, and it would obviously be a proper matter for discussion on a Supply Day on the Ministry of Education Vote.
Sir I. Fraser: Reverting to the question of Budget day, while accepting the right hon. Gentleman's explanation as to the choice of day, might I ask him to bear in mind that the customary broadcasts which have taken place for very many years subsequent to the Budget statement have been arranged so as to be fair to all parties? Will he further bear in mind that the decision in this matter rests with the Governors of the B.B.C., but if they seek to make a change which would be fairer, having regard to the forthcoming local elections, would he ask the Chancellor to agree?
Mr. Morrison: I must say this is the quaintest argument I have yet met. I never dreamed that this had anything to do with the local government elections.
1456
This question has put thoughts in my mind that had far better not be there. I never thought of it. I really cannot conceive that people who are voting at county council elections are voting about the Chancellor's Budget. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] No; the poor things have got their own budgets to worry about without worrying about the Chancellor's Budget. The only way to readjust the matter to meet the point made by the hon. Member, would be for the Chancellor to broadcast about his Budget on the night before the Budget statement is made.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: May we assume from this peculiar arrangement, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to announce that evening the sort of concessions usually kept for by-elections?
Mr. MorrisonI deprecate all these subtle partisan political matters coming up in connection with the Business of the House.
Mr. Clement Davies: May I also call attention to the fact that there seems to be undue preference given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the other Opposition? Why is there not an equal opportunity given to the Liberal Party.
Mr. Morrison: I am not without sympathy with my right hon. and learned Friend in point but as he will appreciate, we have been pressed by the official Opposition to keep to the ordinary course of events, and that it what we are doing.
Mr. Norman Smith: Will my right hon. Friend give time for a Debate on the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for South Nottingham—
[That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that all licensees of public houses, being tenants of breweries, should have the statutory right to buy their freeholds, if they so wish, at a price to be determined by arbitration, with a view to giving consumers the widest possible choice,]—
in view of the fact that circumstances prevented any Debate on the Private Members' Bill covering the same topic?
Mr. Morrison: I am afraid that I am not fully aware of the circumstances of this matter, but I shall note my hon. Friend's point and look into it.

IRON AND STEEL SUBSIDIES (REVIEW)
The Minister of Supply (Mr. G. R. Strauss): As the House is aware, the Government have been considering the subsidies at present being paid on iron and steel. We have come to the conclusion that the subsidies to meet the excess cost of imported finished steel and the import duties on pig iron and steel should be continued. But, as from 1st April, the remaining subsidies will cease, with an estimated saving to the Exchequer for the year 1949–50 of about £25 million. The corresponding increase in cost to the industry will necessarily be reflected in higher prices for its products. The Iron and Steel Board have for some time been making a detailed review of the price structure of the industry and recommend that certain other price adjustments should be effected at the same time. The new maximum prices resulting from this review and the withdrawal of the subsidies are embodied in the Iron and Steel, and Bolt and Nut Control Orders laid today. They are designed to provide no more than a reasonable return on capital employed to each section of the industry, and on the best calculations possible will give no increase but probably some reduction in the total profits of the iron and steel industry.
I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the existing and new prices of representative products, from which it will be seen that the increases vary from 10s. 3d. per ton for foundry pig iron to 89s. per ton for tin plates, but for most of the products they are between £2–£3 per ton. The Government appreciate that these increases will add to the task of some industries in maintaining competitive prices in the export markets. But the House will realise that increases of this magnitude in the cost of the raw materials of steel-using industries, though substantial, are nevertheless small in relation to the costs of highly-engineered products worth hundreds of pounds per ton of steel. These industries will moreover still obtain their steel, in the main, as cheaply as their principal overseas competitors. The Government are therefore satisfied that the continuation of the present level of the iron and steel subsidy from the pocket of the general taxpayer would not be justified.
Mr. Lyttelton: As we are generally in agreement that any move towards realistic prices is an advance, I need ask only two questions. Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the price of steel will still be competitive in this country and in many cases below the world prices even after the increase has been taken into account? Does he not think that the expression "steel subsidy," referring to arrangements designed to decrease or lower the price of imported steel so that it accords with the lower price of steel in this country, is somewhat misleading?
Mr. Strauss: The answer to the first part of the question is "Yes." One has to take into account the artificially low scrap prices in this country owing to Government control. The answer to the second part of the question is that although "iron and steel subsidy" may be a misnomer, we know of no better or simpler way of expressing what it is.
Mr. Chetwynd: Can my right hon. Friend say what the cost will be in the coming year of the subsidies that are being continued?
Mr. Strauss: About £3 million in respect of finished steel, and the repayment on the duty of imported steel will be about £8 million.
Mr. Gammans: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the new prices to which he has referred for some finished or semi-finished products have been arrived at in some cases without any reference to the trades concerned?
Mr. Strauss: These new prices have been recommended by the Iron and Steel Board on which representatives of the industry sit.
Mr. Edgar Granville: Does this mean the Minister is completely satisfied that the standard of efficiency in the iron and steel industry at the present time is sufficiently high to enable him to make these changes without affecting in any way the export prices of some of the finished products? Can the Minister say whether he has discussed this with those concerned with finished products?
Mr. Strauss: I should not like to go into the vexed question of the efficiency of the industry at the moment. Although this does mean some increase in prices which will be some burden on the exporting industries, I think they will be able to stand it.
Mr. Bellenger: May I ask what effect this will have on the imported supplies of steel? Will there be any increased amount available for British industry?
Mr. Strauss: We are anticipating substantial imports this year of both finished and semi-finished steel.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Will the Minister consider adding a table to his answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT showing the price differentials for a comprehensive list of iron and steel items?
Mr. Strauss: I am giving a number of the more important ones, but the hon. Member will appreciate that the total number of items affected is between 200,000 and 300,000.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: In view of the growing world shortage of iron ores, is the Minister satisfied that the supplies to this country for, say, the next 10 years are safeguarded?
Mr. Strauss: That is rather a different question, but I should not like to say I am satisfied at all.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: Before arriving at this decision, did the Minister directly consult the industries that use

IRON AND STEEL PRICE INCREASES

—

Existing Maximum Basis Price*

New Maximum Basis Price

Increase

(Per ton except for Tinplate)

(Per ton except for Tinplate)

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

Basic Pig Iron

…

…

…

9

5

0

9

17

6

12

6

Hematite Pig Iron

…

…

…

10

2

6

11

16

6

1

14

0

Foundry Pig Iron

…

…

…

9

10

3

10

0

6

10

3

Soft Basic Billets

…

…

…

14

7

6

17

1

6

2

14

0

Heavy and Medium Sections

…

…

…

17

1

6

19

13

6

2

12

0

Plates

…

…

…

17

16

6

20

14

6

2

18

0

Rails

…

…

…

16

16

6

19

2

6

2

6

0

Wire Rods

…

…

…

18

10

0

21

2

3

2

12

3

Re-rolled Bars

…

…

…

19

10

0

22

6

0

2

16

0

Re-rolled Sections

…

…

…

19

0

0

21

16

0

2

16

0

Hot Rolled Hoop and Strip

…

…

…

20

5

0

23

1

0

2

16

0

Black Sheets

…

…

…

25

1

0

28

16

0

3

15

0

Tinplate (per box)

…

…

…

1

17

51/2

2

1

6

4

0½

Cold Rolled Strip

…

…

…

29

11

6

31

15

6

2

4

0

Bright Steel Bars

…

…

…

29

13

0

31

2

3

1

9

3

Wire

…

…

…

25

17

6

28

0

0

2

2

6

Forging Ingots

…

…

…

15

8

0

17

16

0

2

8

0

Alloy Steel Billets

…

…

…

22

17

3

25

6

9

2

9

6

Colliery Arches

…

…

…

19

16

6

23

0

3

3

3

9

*The prices shown are net, after deduction in certain cases of existing "loyalty rebates." On the Iron and Steel Board's recommendation the industry have agreed to the abolition of all loyalty rebates and the new prices in the Iron and Steel Control Order are net prices.

steel for finished articles for the export trade, and if so can he report their reactions?
Mr. Strauss: No, Sir. We did not do that. Practically every industry is directly or indirectly a consumer of steel. We took the advice of the Iron and Steel Board. The Government acted on that advice, and I am sure we have done right.
Mr. Erroll: As a result of this announcement, will the Minister modify Clause 5 of the Iron and Steel Bill which authorises the giving of subsidies to the new Iron and Steel Corporation?
Mr. Strauss: No, Sir. That is a purely permissive Clause.
Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Will this have any effect on the wage structure of the industry?
Mr. Strauss: No, Sir. It should not have any effect.
Mr. Gibson: Will this new arrangement increase the cost of steel used in housing?
Mr. Strauss: Yes, Sir. I am afraid it will increase the cost of all steel consumed by every industry.
Following is the list:

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NATIONAL PARKS AND ACCESS TO THE COUNTRYSIDE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.50 p.m.
  The Minister of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Silkin): I beg to move "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  This long-awaited Bill will be received with great pleasure by a large number of people all over the country who have witnessed with considerable concern disturbing trends in the development of these islands. We are today one of the most densely populated countries in the world. More and more people are living in towns. Today four out of every five are living in urban communities, and this has resulted in almost a complete separation of town and country. There are almost two different peoples with differing mentalities with a lack of understanding by the townsmen of the countryman's point of view. In particular, there is a very considerable lack of knowledge and appreciation on the needs of the countryside and its preservation. Yet with the increasing nervous strain of life it makes it all the more necessary that we should be able to enjoy the peace and spiritual refreshment which only contact with nature can give.
  There is first of all the disfigurement of the countryside. This has been going on for 100 years or more. We have shacks, ribbon development, unsightly coastal development, mineral workings, quarrying, power stations, gas works, poles and pylons supporting overhead electricity, telegraph and telephone wires, radar and radio establishments, reservoirs, outdoor advertisements, nissen huts, hutments, hangars and other Service buildings. Each of these more or less necessary appurtenances of modern science, progress and civilisation makes a great contribution to the disfigurement of the countryside.
  Then we have suffered a considerable loss of agricultural land. This is of primary importance to us today in view of the economic situation, but it is not so much with that aspect of it that I want to deal this afternoon, but with the fact that agricultural land contributes very greatly through its pattern of cultivation
  1462
  to the unique character and the beauty of our landscape. It is from this loss that we are suffering now. In recent years there has been a considerable loss of access to the countryside through the ploughing up of footpaths during the war, land required by the Service Departments, gathering grounds and so on.
  Although owners of uncultivated land in various parts of the country have tacitly permitted trespass on their land, there are still many places where access is difficult, for instance, in the High Peak, where often the only contact with the lovely countryside is the remote one of being able to look at it from concrete or tarmacadamed roads, despite the fact that there are millions of people living in conditions of great congestion within 25 miles of the Peak district, whose only outlet to the countryside practically is in that area. Coupled with these trends is a considerable lack of public facilities for open-air recreation, and for opportunities of getting to the countryside and enjoying it.
  The Bill before the House is directed to arresting and reversing these various trends. Its objects broadly are, first, to preserve and enhance the beauty of the countryside; and, secondly, to enable our people to see it, get to it, and enjoy it. This Bill is the culmination of the pioneering efforts of many public spirited persons who devoted themselves to the open-air cause through the agency of voluntary organisations. Some of them were formed as far back as the second half of the last century. If I may, I should like to mention some of the names of these organisations, and in doing so I hope I am not leaving out any body which ought to be mentioned. There is the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, the Commons, Open Spaces and Footpaths Preservation Society, the Ramblers' Association, the Cyclists' Touring Club, the Youth Hostels Association and many others. The results of their endeavours to interest and arouse public opinion have been slow but steady.
  Today, for example, there are, I understand, 150,000 registered ramblers, walkers, cyclists and climbers, and other similar organisations have large memberships. Youth hostels are being put up in increasing numbers all over the country. That is a very good sign. The Town and Country Planning Act, 1947,

  1463
  was a landmark in the history of these movements. It went a long way to protecting the countryside in general and agriculture in particular from further arbitrary and unnecessary inroads. There is now effective control over general development. There are provisions relating to the preservation of trees and of buildings of historic and architectural interests. There is control over outdoor advertisements, and the Act provides for areas of special control in which there may not be any outdoor advertisements at all in the countryside. That is a great step forward.
  In addition, various efforts have been made in recent years to secure better access to the countryside for the public. The earliest attempt, so far as I have been able to trace it, was the unsuccessful Bill, Access to Mountains Bill, introduced by the late James Bryce in 1888. A later Measure, the Access to the Mountains Act, 1939, introduced by my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary, then Member for Shipley, met with a somewhat better fate. It passed into law in a very attenuated form—in such a form that it was regarded by the amenity societies as entirely unsatisfactory and unworkable. Indeed, one of the main planks in their programme in recent years has been the repeal of this Measure.
  The national parks movement in this country goes back about half a century, but after the First World War the conception of national parks made more rapid strides. In 1930 the Government set up a committee to explore the question of national parks under the chairmanship of Lord Addison. This committee reported in 1931 at a moment when it was somewhat inauspicious for embarking on ventures of this kind. Sir Leslie Scott, as Chairman of the Scott Committee, made a number of valuable recommendations regarding national parks in his report in 1942, but quite naturally no action was taken during the war. In 1945, the late Mr. John Dower issued a report on national parks in England and Wales. He was a great champion of the open air, and it is a source of deep regret to us all that he has not survived to see the fruition of his efforts; but his work lives.
  In 1947, we had a series of reports, published under the chairmanship of Sir Arthur Hobhouse. He published three
  1464
  reports, one on national parks, one on footpaths and access to the countryside, and one on wild life conservation. I should like to express my own great indebtedness and that of the whole community, to Sir Arthur Hobhouse and to his committee for the very valuable reports which they published. These reports are informative and stimulating and they have had a very great influence in the preparation of the Measure today.
  May I say also, in all fairness, that the House is indebted to my predecessor the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison), for having appointed the late Mr. John Dower and the Hobhouse Committee who produced these very valuable documents? The Government have accepted the Hob-house reports as to some 90 per cent. I should like to say to Sir Arthur Hobhouse that that is not bad going and that very few chairmen of committees have had the satisfaction of seeing their reports implemented within so short a time and to such a considerable extent. The Government have accepted the policy of creating a number of national parks in this country. The first two parts of the Bill provide the necessary machinery and powers.
  At this stage, I should like to explain to the House the conception of a national park as applied to this country. The term "park" is misleading. Some hon. Members later in the Debate may even say that the term "national" is misleading, but we shall deal with that when we come to it. The term "park" in the Oxford Dictionary is defined as
  "a large, enclosed piece of ground, usually with woodland and pasture, attached to a country house or devoted to public use; an enclosure in a town ornamentally laid out for public recreation."
  Of course, the national park is neither of those. The national park is defined in the Bill, both implicitly and explicitly, as
  "an extensive area of outstanding beauty, suitable for open air recreation by the general public, but where the normal life of the existing community goes on."
  Such an area may run into hundreds of square miles. The largest of those that we propose is more than 800 square miles in area.
  There are national parks in a great many countries throughout the world. The earliest of them to be created was in 1872 in the United States of America.

  1465
  There must be a number of hon. Members who have been to Yellowstone Park, which is, indeed, a very great inspiration. It was followed by a great number of similar national parks throughout the United States of America, owned either by the Federal Government or, in a number of cases, by State Governments. There are a great number of national parks in other parts of the world. For instance, Canada has 26, South Africa, Australia and the Belgian Congo have parks, and New Zealand has 10. There are other parks in places like Kenya and Eire, and in many European countries.
  Generally speaking, those parks differ in a number of respects from what is proposed in this country. Many of those national parks have, for one of their purposes, the preservation of wild life or of flora and fauna. They are, in fact, to a considerable degree, large nature or game reserves. For instance, Yellowstone Park has a very large number of wild bears and other specimens of wild life which the public are recommended not to tease or to get into too close contact with. It has an area of 3,471 square miles, which is about four times the area of the largest of the proposed national parks, the Lake District. Nevertheless, it contains a number of features which are of interest and value to us in this country, and many of the facilities for recreation in Yellowstone Park and other national parks throughout the world will, it is hoped, be provided in our own national parks. They have hiking, fishing, boating, swimming, riding, motorbus tours, museums and information facilities. They have accommodation in the way of camping sites and tents and cabins that can be hired, and they have hotels, lodgings and refreshment houses distributed all over the area.
  The most fundamental difference from our proposed national parks is that it is essential, and I think very desirable too, that in our national parks the ordinary rural life, such as farming, rural industry and afforestation, should continue to function. This is a small country, and we cannot afford, as can the United States, to set aside large areas solely for the purpose of public recreation or establishing a museum. National park areas such as are proposed in the Hobhouse Report represent no less than 10 per cent. of the total area of England and Wales. The conservation areas, some 52, that are
  1466
  recommended in the Hobhouse Report, account for another 15 per cent., so that the acceptance of the reports on both national parks and conservation areas will involve 25 per cent. of the area of this country. We have to be extremely careful how far we sterlise an area of that size. Those areas must be used to maintain the economic life of the community. It may be inevitable that different uses of land should exist cheek by jowl.
  I have been severely criticised, particularly by the hon. Member for the High Peak (Mr. Molson), for permitting a limited extension of a cement works in the Peak district, but the hon. Gentleman would not hesitate to attack me on the following day for the non-provision of houses. Cement is one of the necessary ingredients for houses. The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways; or perhaps, as a Member of the Opposition, he can; but I cannot have it both ways. If we stop the production of cement we are automatically stopping the production of those items and articles from which cement is made.
  Just as all life is dynamic and circumstances and conditions change, so must we be prepared for necessary and inevitable changes in our national parks. Any other outlook would be fatal to the success of the national parks themselves. Among other changes, there may be a need for further afforestation, and there will be discussions between the Forestry Commission and the National Parks Commission before it takes place. Other forms of development may also be necessary. The Bill does, however, recognise the special position of agriculture and forestry. In Clause 4 (5) it provides that both the National Parks Commission and the local authorities are to have due regard to the need for securing that agriculture and forestry as established in the parks shall be efficiently maintained.
  Here I should like to make it quite clear that the closest consultation will take place between my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and myself on any proposals affecting land used for agriculture whether in a proposed national park or in an area of open country to which the public is to have access or on the creation of a new public right of way. Indeed, this is merely

  1467
  perpetuating the existing practice, but I think it right to place on record that these consultations will take place. Incidentally, I hope that the national parks as well as the areas of exceptional beauty will be well signposted, and that, while I do not visualise anything in the nature of a physical fence running round them, the public will nevertheless be informed when coming into a national park or an area of exceptional beauty—and when they are actually in such an area—and will learn to take a pride in it and feel that it belongs to them.
  I shall now briefly describe the proposals in the Bill for national parks. The proposals are contained in Parts I and II. It is proposed to set up a National Parks Commission. This will consist of a chairman, a deputy chairman and a number of members. The Bill does not prescribe the number of members. I think that we should probably begin with a small number and increase them as the number of national parks and areas of exceptional beauty increases. It would be a mistake to appoint a large number of people at the beginning without giving them an adequate amount of work to do. It is proposed that the chairman, the deputy chairman and the members should all serve part-time and that only the chairman and the deputy chairman should be paid. As regards the membership, no particular qualifications are mentioned in the Bill, but I have in mind that they should be persons with a love of the countryside and with a knowledge and understanding of open-air life and needs for recreation. I should like to see on such a Commission somebody with considerable experience in the provision of recreational facilities.
  Mr. Lipson: Such as Mr. Butlin?
  Mr. Silkin: Why not? He might make a very useful member. Anyway it would mean that he could not go into business in national park areas. There should be on the Commission people who are able to speak of the needs of the users of the national parks. I hope that, generally, the Commission will consist of people of wide experience of the need for national parks and the best way in which they can be used.
  Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: Does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate Members of this House as members of the Commission?
  Mr. Silkin: Speaking off-hand, unless there are legal difficulties which would prevent it, I would not rule hon. Members out of membership if they possess the necessary qualifications.
  Colonel Dower: Would that be as unpaid members?
  Mr. Silkin: Yes, Sir.
  I now want to discuss the powers of the Commission. This is one of the matters upon which the Bill has received some criticism. It has been said that the Commission will not have sufficient powers and that it will merely be an advisory committee. I want to tell the House what those powers are. They are distributed throughout the Bill, for reasons which are inevitable; they arise under different aspects of the functions of the Bill, under access, footpaths, national parks, areas of exceptional beauty, and so on. It may be convenient to hon. Members who form the Committee on the Bill if those powers are put together in a form which will enable the Committee to see what the powers are as a whole, with a reference to the Clauses from which the powers are derived. I hope that the House will allow me to distribute a memorandum on the subject when we come to the Committee stage.
  The first task of the Commission will be to select the areas of designation as national parks. They will be asked to look at the areas recommended by the Hobhouse Committee first, and it may be that I shall ask them to look at specific areas from the point of view of urgency. It is more urgent to deal with some areas than with others, and I hope that that will be the criterion for selecting the first areas for designation. The Commission will advise the Minister on how park planning authorities are to be constituted; that is, on the question of joint boards, joint committees, special committees and so on. They will advise the Minister as to the persons to be nominated for co-option to the park committees. They will assist the park committees in formulating detailed proposals for administering the national parks and

  1469
  providing facilities, and generally keep under review the activities of local authorities in the national park areas.
  They will advise the local authorities and the Minister on the development plans in the national park areas and in areas of special beauty. They will be consulted on particular proposals for development—whether by private persons, local authorities, statutory undertakers or Government departments—as well as generally. They will recommend to the Minister what grants are to be paid to local planning authorities. That is very important. The power of the purse is perhaps the most important of all, and although no Minister would consent to be bound by the recommendations of a Commission, I am sure that the House will agree that equally no Minister would lightly disregard the recommendations of a Commission. They will be responsible for telling the public about the park, about its history and its features, where accommodation is to be found, and where buildings of architectural and historical interest are and all about such buildings. In this respect, they will function as an information service.
  Generally, the Commission will be responsible for drawing attention to any question affecting natural beauty in any part of England and Wales. I suggest that is a function of great importance, and one which is far wider than any proposed by the Hobhouse Committee, where the duties of the Commission were to be confined to specific areas. They will also be responsible for selecting the other areas of natural beauty to which special powers are to apply. These areas are defined in Clause 70. They will be normally smaller in extent than the national parks and for that, or some other reason, therefore unsuitable for designation as national parks.
  The Commission will also be responsible for selecting the long-distance footpaths. They will report annually to Parliament and so to the public about their progress, and if they are frustrated in any way by the Minister or by Government Departments, they will have a full opportunity of drawing the attention of the public to these frustrations in their annual report. I would say that much will depend on the quality of the Commission. They have pretty formidable powers. They are capable of creating
  1470
  for themselves an outstanding position in relation to the natural beauty and the open-air life of this country, and it is certainly my intention to appoint a Commission which will be a responsible and important body, and one which is capable of undertaking the great powers with which they will be entrusted.
  Now I want to discuss the detailed administration of the national parks. It is proposed that this shall be carried out by special park committees. It will be inevitable that most of the national parks which will be set up will be within the area of a number of authorities. Few will be in the area of one single authority, but where this is the case they will set up a special committee to deal with that national park. Where there is more than one, the Bill provides that there shall be set up a joint board consisting of representatives of the different local authorities or, with general agreement, an advisory committee. It is normally my intention to set up a joint board because I recognise the importance of uniform administration in a national park area. It would be contrary to the purpose of a national park that it should be possible to have different authorities administering different parts of it in different ways, and the normal and obvious method of that administration will be by way of a joint board.
  Only in exceptional cases would I consider an advisory committee at all, and those would be where a large part of the national park area is in the area of one authority and a small portion is in the area of another or several others. Take, for example, the proposed Brecon Beacons. Of course, it does not follow that the areas set out in the Hobhouse Report will eventually be exactly the national parks but, taking those as an example, out of 327,000 acres in the Brecon Beacons, 1,344 are in Glamorgan and 12,000 in Hereford. It would seem to be somewhat absurd in such a case to set up a joint board giving Glamorgan representation and the opportunity of administering a very large area indeed in which it has little or no interest, merely because one-three-hundredths of the area of the national park happens to be within the area of the Glamorgan County Council.
  The same applies to the South Downs where, out of 176,000 acres, 800 are in

  1471
  the County Borough of Brighton and 4,000 in Eastbourne. While I do not wish to commit myself at this stage, even in those cases, to the setting up of an advisory committee, I suggest that it might be a matter for consideration as to whether, where there are authorities having so slight an interest in the national park it would not be wise to set up an advisory committee rather than a joint board, but it is not one of those matters about which I would wish to be dogmatic. The joint board is an instrument of administration which has so far hardly been used. I would like to have an opportunity of trying both the joint board and the advisory committee, and there is nothing in the Bill which would prevent one from creating a joint board if an advisory committee were found to be unsatisfactory.
  The Bill provides that at least a quarter of the board or of the committee shall be appointed by the local planning authority on the nomination of the Minister, after consultation with the National Parks Commission. This will enable the Minister to ensure that persons are appointed to the parks committee without local interest or prejudices, who are able to put before the committee the so-called "national" point of view, whatever that may mean. Probably what is meant is the amenity point of view. At any rate, these people will be on the committee and they will be of a calibre and with qualifications which will enable them to put the wider amenity point of view to the committee.
  General powers are conferred in the Bill upon the local planning authorities to take any action to secure the purposes for which the parks are created. A great many of the purposes for which these are parks are being established can be carried out under existing legislation, under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and other enactments. Where it is possible for that to be done, it is proposed that it should be done under existing enactments, but specifiec powers are conferred to enable the local planning authorities to provide accommodation, camping sites, parking places, refreshments—including licensed premises—improved access for the planting of trees, the removal of disfigurements, such as shacks, and other unsightly objects,
  1472
  and the restoration of derelict land in the national park area. It is intended that in the provision of these facilities which I have mentioned—accommodation, camping and refreshments—the fullest use should be made of voluntary associations such as the Youth Hostels Association, the Workers' Travel Association, and others, by means of a subsidy, where necessary, from the local planning authority. But the local planning authority can provide these services where they are satisfied that no other body is able or willing to do so.
  Powers are conferred on the planning authorities to improve waterways; I have particularly in mind the Broads, which represent a serious problem. The most serious threat to the Broads as a holiday area is the encroachment of sea vegetation on the open water. The only remedy is clearing and dredging. In addition, certain Broads once freely used are now closed to the public and, consequently, are overgrown. Thirdly, the three most popular yachting centres are greatly congested in the holiday season and new centres are needed. Finally, there are the further problems of pollution from sewage and the protection of wild life which is to be found on the Broads. This provision for dealing with the Broads and other waterways will be a source of considerable satisfaction to my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans) who has, both in this House and outside, carried on a lively and well-informed agitation for the improvement of the Broads.
  Under the Bill there is power to provide a warden service. I would like to make it quite clear that the wardens will not in any sense be a police force. Their main job will be to explain to visitors what they can and what they cannot do in the parks and to report damage to fences, trees and so on. It is not intended that this service will be a large one, for we believe that once people know what is expected of them we can rely upon them not to damage the parks.
  There is power to restrict traffic of any particular description in a national park area and areas of extensive beauty or roads forming a long-distance route, subject to the approval of the Minister of Transport. These powers will be reinforced in three ways. First, there as shacks, and other unsightly objects,

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  will normally be up to 75 per cent. of the cost, but in special instances, which are referred to in Clause 79, they will be as much as 100 per cent. I have explained already that the National Parks Commission will be responsible for recommending grants.
  Doubts have been expressed as to the ability of the poorest local authorities to bear the burden of cost, even to the extent of the 25 per cent. which will be left for them to carry. I should like to examine for a moment the extent of the burden which might be imposed on the local planning authorities so far as this remaining 25 per cent. is concerned. I recognise that some local authorities have a very low rateable value. For instance, in Montgomery a penny rate produces £685; in Merioneth, £568; and in Pembroke, £1,141. But the largest part of the expenditure in the national parks will be capital expenditure and will be financed in some cases, for example, by loans repayable over 30 years. The poorest of the authorities concerned—the three I have mentioned—will, after allowing for rate equalisation grants under the Local Government Act, 1948, receive by way of total grant 90 per cent. or more of their expenditure. That will be the combined effect of this Measure and the Local Government Act. Therefore, in the case of the three counties I have mentioned, they will have to spend £150,000, £110,000 and £213,000 respectively in capital expenditure before they will have to levy a penny rate.
  There will, of course, be some expenditure on revenue account. There again, those authorities will get 90 per cent. of assistance on the same basis as before in respect of those services which carry grant. In the wardens service, Montgomery could employ 30 wardens for the equivalent of a penny rate; Merioneth, 22; and Pembroke, 42. As a further relief, they will have the advantage of the use of the Commission's technical staff, if they want it, for the purpose of more efficiently discharging their duties. Therefore, authorities need not be held up through lack of means. They can do a very great deal for the product of a very small rate.
  My second proposal for reinforcing the powers of the local planning authorities is by acquisition of land. Wide powers are conferred on the local planning autho-
  1474
  rities to acquire any land required for the exercise of their functions, either by agreement or, in cases where land is required for a specific purpose, compulsorily. This includes the acquisition of land for giving public access to open country. The Minister will have corresponding powers to acquire open country in national parks by agreement or compulsion. He will also be able to buy, by agreement, other land in national parks which needs to be preserved.
  The kind of case I have in mind is where a large, and possibly expensive, estate comes into the market which it is desirable, for amenity and other reasons, to preserve substantially in its existing condition but which, unless it were acquired, might be split up and its existing character destroyed. In such a case, as well as in other cases where agricultural land is acquired and it is proposed to retain it as agricultural land, the usual practice will be to transfer it to the Agricultural Land Commission for management. My Department do not propose to hold or manage land if we can avoid it. Once the Minister has acquired land not suitable for management by the Agricultural Land Commission, he will normally dispose of it for management to somebody able and willing to manage it, possibly to a body like the National Trust.
  The third means of securing the carrying out of the powers by the local planning authorities—
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Could the cost of putting electric cables underground, instead of their being carried on pylons, be borne either by the National Parks Commission or by the local authority?
  Mr. Silkin: That is not specifically dealt with in the Bill. That would not be the case.
  The third means of securing the carrying out of powers by the local planning authorities is by the exercise of powers of direction. The Minister may require an authority to exercise any power in a national parks area, or an area of extensive beauty, and the Commission have the duty of drawing the attention of the Minister to any failure on the part of the local planning authorities. This power is enforceable by mandamus in the

  1475
  courts. It is possible under Clause 84 to authorise another local authority to act in place of the local planning authority. This is an additional default measure. There is provision for other local authorities to assist financially, or to act in a particular case, by agreement, in the place of the local planning authority. For instance, a city could provide accommodation, or other facilities, for ramblers in a nearby park.
  The next part of the Bill is that dealing with nature conservation. As some hon. Members know, a Nature Conservancy was recently set up by Royal Charter—
  Colonel Dower: Is compensation for injury provided for under this Clause?
  Mr. Silkin: I shall deal with that under access and under footpaths. The Nature Conservancy will work under the authority of the Privy Council and the Lord President will be responsible in this House. The objects of the Conservancy are stated in the Charter to be to provide scientific advice on the conservation and control of the natural flora and fauna of Great Britain; to establish, maintain and manage nature reserves in Great Britain, including the maintenance of physical features of scientific interest; and to organise and develop the research and scientific services related thereto. Three hon. Members of this House have, among others, been appointed as the first members of the Nature Conservancy, the hon. Members for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling), Forest of Dean (Mr. Philips Price) and Motherwell (Mr. Alex Anderson) and the hon. Members for Motherwell and for Orkney and Shetland (Sir B. Neven-Spence) on the Scottish Committee.
  The beauty of the scenery in the national parks and areas of beauty depends, to a large extent, upon the trees and other plants that grow there. To maintain and enhance the beauty of this natural flora calls for scientific knowledge and advice. It is obvious, therefore, that close contact will have to exist between the Nature Conservancy and the national parks. This contact will be provided in a variety of ways, one of which will be by overlapping membership. I intend to appoint one or more members of the Conservancy to serve on the Commission and
  1476
  my right hon. Friend the Lord President has left seats vacant on the Conservancy for the reverse process.
  Sir Ian Fraser: With all respect, the right hon. Gentleman has not the power to appoint anyone to the Conservancy has he?
  Mr. Silkin: The Lord President would suggest names for the Commission. These things can be done by good will, if we want to do them. I agree that I cannot directly appoint to the Conservancy; that is the function of the Lord President.
  The Conservancy will, no doubt, follow the report of the Wild Life Conservation Special Committee, which recommends the setting up in England and Wales of about 70 nature reserves, having a total area of about 70,000 acres. It is expected that the total acreage needed in Scotland will be of the same order. The Bill empowers the Conservancy in England and Wales as well as in Scotland—and this is the only part of the Bill in which Scotland is concerned—to agree with owners of land for securing that the land is managed as a nature reserve, to pay compensation for the effect of any restriction on the land imposed by the agreement, and, in certain circumstances, to acquire land compulsorily. Local authorities are also empowered to set up local nature reserves. These provisions should, in the long run, be of great scientific value to the community and should provide considerable interest and pleasure for many people in every walk of life. There are a great many more people interested in nature reserves than one might imagine.
  Part IV of the Bill deals with public rights of way. Broadly speaking, it carries out the recommendations of the Special Committee on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside and also of the Scott Report. Its main purpose is to provide a simple procedure for the settlement and establishment of existing rights of way. It requires the county councils to make a survey of existing rights of way within three years. It requires that, wherever possible, the district councils and parish councils should be used in making this survey. I think it is right that they should be used, because, obviously, district councils and the parishes would have a much more detailed knowledge of the existing rights of way than a county council might have.

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  There will be a right on the part of members of the general public to object to the omission from the list of any particular right of way which they claim existed and there will be an appeal to the Minister. The Minister will be able to direct county councils to include a particular right of way if he feels that a prima facie case has been made out. There are 28 days allowed for objection to the list. There is widespread feeling that 28 days is not long enough and I would be quite prepared, in Committee, to extend the time if there is a general feeling that that should be done. There is also a feeling that not enough facilities are provided for appeal by the general public. I am most anxious that every member of the public should have the fullest opportunity of making representations that there was, or is, an existing footpath which should be included. If there is any defect in that direction, I should be happy to remedy it at a later stage.
  There is provision for settlement of any disputes between owners of land who claim that there has been no dedication and the local authority by Quarter Sessions. That is a considerable improvement in the existing procedure, which involves all parties to a dispute in very considerable expense and very often in interminable delay. There is provision for publication of the final definitive map and the periodical bringing of this map up-to-date thereafter. There is also a very useful provision for ensuring that in future there is a presumption of dedication of right of way after 20 years user in all cases. I think that will remove a great many doubts about the law and make it very much easier to establish a dedication of a right of way.
  The Bill gives the responsibility for creating new rights of way to the district councils. It is believed that they are more closely associated with the needs in that direction than are the county councils; but there is power for the Minister to transfer this function to the county councils if he so desires. An hon. Member asked about compensation. There is compensation provided to owners of land for depreciation in the value of their land arising from the creation of a footpath. The Bill itself makes no specific provision for the closure and possible divertion of footpaths. It may well be, however, that, in the interests of the farmer
  1478
  and the rambling public, an alternative footpath might be more convenient. I propose to discuss with representatives of the ramblers' and farmers' interests the possibility of making some arrangement in this Bill to facilitate the diversion and closure of existing footpaths.
  The Bill provides, for the first time, for a liability for the maintenance of footpaths. This will now rest fairly and squarely on highway authorities. By maintenance I include not merely that a footpath should be kept in a usuable condition, but that it should be free from obstruction preventing its use. The Bill also provides for the establishment of long-distance paths. This has been one of the grievances of the Ramblers' Association and other associations. The Commission are entrusted with the duty of proposing long-distance paths. The Minister's duty will be to consider and approve, if desirable, and it will be for the local authorities to carry out the physical work of creating long-distance footpaths, for which the Exchequer will make a 100 per cent. contribution. There are a number of examples of the kind of long-distance paths which I have in mind; the Pennine Way, the Pilgrims' Way and a number of coastal paths; and there has been some talk of a Thames-side path.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Bankside.
  Mr. Silkin: Perhaps the most difficult part of the Bill to prepare, and possibly the most controversial, has been Part V, which relates to access to the countryside. I have not been able to accept the rather sweeping recommendations of the special committee under which the right of public access is afforded automatically on all uncultivated land, mountain, moor, heath, down, cliff or foreshore, whether privately owned or not, and apparently unconditionally. I have come to the conclusion that where public access is in fact provided today—and I must in fairness say that applies to large areas all over the country—there is no reason why the machinery of this Bill should be applied. It is left to the local planning authorities in any particular case to decide whether or not it is necessary to apply the provisions of this part of the Bill. The Minister may intervene, however, where, in his opinion, a local planning authority is not taking steps to secure public access in a proper case and

  1479
  the Minister can, as I have explained, acquire access land himself in suitable cases.
  It has been represented to me that the Bill would be strengthened by a requirement that local planning authorities should make a survey within a certain period of their access requirements and enter into access agreements or orders, or acquire land so far as is necessary within that period. I think that is worth considering. It is conceivable that some local authorities may, in the pressure of business and for other reasons, be slow in providing the necessary access, and I am prepared to consider whether they should be required to discharge this duty within a certain limited period. The main provision in Part V is that the planning authorities can by agreement, by order or by acquisition, give access to open country as I have defined it. One of the effects of the agreement will be that ramblers will not be trespassers as long as they confine themselves to the land which is subject to the agreement order, and so long as they comply with the not very onerous rules of conduct set out in the Second Schedule to the Bill.
  If this Measure is to succeed these rules of conduct will have to be rigorously obeyed. The public are being put on their honour not to do anything which would create wilful damage to the farming interests. For the first time in the history of this country there will be a legal right on the part of the public to wander over other peoples' land. Some of it may be grazing land and other parts may be available for other purposes, although it is not proposed that this right should extend to purely agricultural land. The public must realise that they have a very great responsibility to discharge. They must not only not create wilful damage, but also they must not do anything else which will interfere with the enjoyment of the land by other people. There will be a considerable amount of educational work to be done. After all, that is not unnatural, having regard to what I said at the outset of my remarks about the separation of the town and the country; and to the fact that hitherto so few people have had the opportunity of learning about the needs and conditions of country life. I know that we shall obtain a great deal of
  1480
  assistance from the Ramblers' and other societies, and they have a very great part to play.
  There is compensation provided under the Bill to owners of land for depreciation in the value of their land arising from the granting of public access. Perhaps I may explain briefly what are these provisions. It is obviously impossible at the outset when the access arrangements are made to state what will be the actual amount of depreciation in the value of the land. That must depend upon experience. The Bill therefore proposes that the actual amount of compensation shall not be fixed until after a period of five years, but it should be fixed at the end of five years on the assumption that at the beginning the amount of damage that will have been created during the five years would have been known, and the compensation will be the amount of such depreciation, together with interest from the date of the access agreement or order, at the prescribed rate.
  These provisions are not limited to national park areas or areas of special beauty. I think it is right that if an owner of land suffers loss, and can prove that he has suffered loss, as a result of allowing the public to roam over his land, he should be entitled to compensation. It is for that reason that the provisions have been made. They extend to the whole country, but the Exchequer grants up to 75 per cent. for the cost of acquisition and for compensation apply only to national park areas and to special areas. It is intended that the access provisions shall apply to gathering grounds of value for open air recreation, subject to discussion in individual cases with the Minister of Health.
  I have completed what can only be a very broad survey of the provisions of this Bill. Hon. Members might now like to have some idea of what will be the programme following, as I hope will be the case, the passage of the Bill into law. The first step will be the appointment of the Commission. Immediately upon their appointment I propose, as I have said, to ask them to consider designating those areas among the proposed national park areas which they deem to be the most urgent. They will, as I have said, look at the 12 areas recommended by the Hobhouse Committee.

  1481
  On the assumption that this Bill becomes law before we rise for the Summer Recess—and there I am in the hands of this House but I hope it may be possible—it might well be possible for the National Parks Commission to designate the first parks by the middle of 1950. In the meantime the counties which are well forward with the survey of public rights of way, and a number of counties have actually started this survey voluntarily, may make it possible to produce a number of provisional maps some time next year, so that it is conceivable, if all goes well, that by the summer of next year we may have a number of national park areas designated and awaiting approval by the Minister.
  I do not propose to deal with anything like all the criticisms which I have received, which have been published in the Press and which hon. Members have made to me about this Bill. I should like, however, to say a word or two about some of the criticisms which have been made by some of the voluntary associations. Those associations have fought so long and with so little to show for their efforts that I feel that they find it somewhat difficult to realise that the battle is nearly won. Judging by some of the letters in the Press, I think that some may almost regret the realisation of their efforts. The spirit of battle has so entered into their souls that they are regretting that they are left with so little for which to fight. I would urge upon them to appreciate that what is important, to the general public at all events, is the provision of national parks and public access, and that the machinery for their administration is of lesser interest to most people, although it may be of great interest to a number of Members of this House.
  These organisations express the fear that the Bill gives no guarantee that the national interest will prevail over local ones in the national park areas.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Silkin: I am not sure whether they and the hon. Member are quite clear as to what they mean by the national interest as against the local one. I cannot help thinking that what most people mean is probably amenity as against national needs, and that the real contest is one which in many cases is
  1482
  irreconcilable, due to the fact, as I stated earlier, that this island is so small.
  These organisations therefore press for the full implementation of the Hobhouse recommendation that the local parks committees should have on them a majority of persons appointed by the National Parks Commission and a minority of local authority representatives. I have not been able to accept that recommendation, and I would like to tell the House why. Under the terms of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, planning powers were, for the first time, conferred upon the county councils because it was felt that they were more responsible bodies, more likely to act on wider considerations and more capable of acting on wider considerations. That particular proposal met with the general agreement of the House.
  The county councils began to function in that respect last July. They have scarcely had time to get into the saddle, and it is monstrous to suggest, before they have had a chance of beginning to function properly, that they are incapable of discharging functions such as these. If any hon. Member wishes to stand up and say that county councils are bodies of irresponsible people who are not fit to be trusted with the administration of national park areas but that instead we should appoint a body with a majority of non-elected persons as being more responsible, I shall be very interested to see such a person. I do not believe that anyone in this House would have the courage to stand up and take that view.
  I am a believer in local authorities. I believe that the local planning authorities will welcome the administration of national parks as a challenge and as a great opportunity, which they will discharge in a public-spirited manner. I do not think that they are likely to be influenced by purely short-term financial considerations. I have already indicated to the House that the actual burden falling upon even the poorest of the county councils is not likely to be of an order which it is unreasonable to expect them to bear. There is another factor.
  It is hoped that the national park areas will attract a considerable number of visitors, and a good deal of the capital expenditure which will be incurred will be for the purpose of catering for the

  1483
  additional number of visitors. It is presumed that this additional number of visitors will bring increased trade and, therefore, revenue to the areas, which will assist them in meeting the burden. At any rate, wealthy authorities who are capable of bearing the burden of large capital expenditure do not hesitate to incur millions of pounds of capital expenditure with the intention of asking visitors to their areas, realising that the benefit to their ratepayers will recoup them for the large burdens which they are incurring. I believe that those considerations will apply also to the national park areas.
  There are considerable safeguards in the Bill as well. There is the presence of not less than 25 per cent. of members on the parks committees who will put forward national considerations. There is the right of the National Parks Commission to be informed and to make representations to the Minister both generally and on specific cases in respect of private development and development by Government Departments and statutory undertakers. Then there is the power of the Minister to call in applications or to revoke decisions under the 1947 Act. I know that some people may say, as they always do say about every Minister, that they can trust the present Minister but that they cannot trust his successor. I remember that it used to be said about the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison). Of course, the Minister and the Government have to be trusted; if we have a bad Minister or a bad or unsympathetic Government the national parks will not be well administered. One must recognise that.
  The alternative is to have some body or organisation which is above the Government and more powerful than the Government, and which can carry out its will regardless of the policy or the desires of the Government. I do not think anyone would particularly recommend that state of affairs; therefore, it seems to me that it is inevitable that we should in the last resort depend upon the local authorities, the National Parks Commission, the Minister and the Government for securing that our beautiful land is properly preserved, its beauty
  1484
  enhanced and the other functions of this Bill properly carried out.
  I want to make it quite clear that I can give no guarantee whatever that it might not be essential to permit a certain amount of what some hon. Members will regard as undesirable development in the national park areas. It may be necessary in the future as it has been in the past to permit some part of the national park areas to be used for purposes of national defence. It may be necessary to utilise the mineral wealth which lies in those areas for the purpose of ensuring the economic life of our people. I do not think anybody would seriously suggest that we should ignore the existence of this mineral wealth and fail to utilise it, subject to a number of conditions. The first condition is that it must be demonstrated quite clearly that the exploitation of those minerals is absolutely necessary in the public interest. It must be clear beyond all doubt that there is no possible alternative source of supply, and if those two conditions are satisfied then the permission must be subject to the condition that restoration takes place at the earliest possible opportunity.
  I realise that this Bill, good as it is, is capable of improvement, and during the remaining stages I shall welcome the co-operation and assistance of hon. Members in all parties, many of whom will have a wider knowledge of the subject matter in this Bill than I can possibly claim to have. I shall be very ready to consider any suggestions also from voluntary organisations, with their expert knowledge. But however good may be the machinery of this Bill as it finally emerges, it is largely machinery. Its success must depend on the courageous, determined and imaginative spirit in which it is carried out by the parties concerned, by the local planning authorities, the Commission, my Ministry and the Government. It has immense possibilities for enhancing the beauties of this island, but even more by providing closer contact with nature and in improving the physical, moral and spiritual welfare of our people. With all sincerity I can promise that, so far as this Government and I, as Minister, are concerned, we will do everything in our power to give life and reality to the terms of this Measure.

  1485
  This Bill is the third piece of important legislation which I have been privileged to introduce into this Parliament, all of them major implementations of great State Reports—Barlow, Scott, Uthwatt, Reith, and Hobhouse. That, in itself, I may humbly claim, is a unique record. All these documents will live in the history of town and country planning. It is a source of special pride to me that these Measures, together constituting the complete trilogy of planning, represent a code fashioned in this one Parliament by the same Minister. The New Towns Act and the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, were designed to improve the broad material conditions in which we spend our lives, but the present Bill has a more direct and specific purpose. By preserving and developing the beautiful parts of our countryside we are seeking to promote happiness for ordinary men and women.
  It is perhaps a reason for our country's greatness that in a difficult period like the present we are not afraid to set aside time and energy for the practical measures needed to help people to enjoy these beautiful areas. No one will wish to disagree with the wisdom of doing so, because the enjoyment of our leisure in the open air and the ability to leave our towns and walk on the moors and in the dales without fear of interruption are, with all respect to my right hon. Friends the Ministers of Health and of National Insurance, just as much a part of positive health and wellbeing as are the building of hospitals or insurance against sickness. I am particularly proud to introduce this Bill because it represents something which men and women have wanted for a long time and have struggled for, often with little hope of success.
  Now at last we shall be able to see that the mountains of Snowdonia, the Lakes, and the waters of the Broads, the moors and dales of the Peak, the South Downs and the tors of the West Country belong to the people as a right and not as a concession. This is not just a Bill. It is a people's charter—a people's charter for the open air, for the hikers and the ramblers, for everyone who loves to get out into the open air and enjoy the countryside. Without it they are fettered, deprived of their powers of access and facilities needed to make holidays enjoyable. With it the countryside is theirs
  1486
  to preserve, to cherish, to enjoy and to make their own.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: I am sure the whole House will wish me to congratulate the Minister on having survived a considerable mental and physical ordeal in the careful and exhaustive survey which he has given us in presenting this Bill today. The right hon. Gentleman took us fully into past history and voiced, in the concluding passages of his speech, so many of the aspirations which are common to all of us that I shall be able to limit the compass of my remarks. I need hardly say that I welcome the Bill. We all rejoice in anything which will make an understanding of the countryside a more general possession of our people. I agree with all the right hon. Gentleman said about the value, to body and mind, of encouraging proper access to our open spaces. He was good enough to mention my own contribution on this question during my term of office but, of course, much work was done before I came on the scene. Enthusiastic private persons had long agitated for something of this kind and have done, in the meantime, invaluable work in preserving from depredation many of the areas which they one day hope to see made national parks. If the right hon. Gentleman occasionally feels irritated by the zeal of these societies, I am sure he would be the first to acknowledge that they have done wonderful work in preserving for this generation areas which might otherwise have been spoilt.
  Mr. Silkin Mr. Silkin indicated assent.
  Mr. Morrison: In that task it is worth while noting which were the chief potential dangers to these areas. They did not, as is generally the case under town planning, arise from the private developer, although he might, by an unsightly building, ruin a fair prospect. Of course, quarrying carried out in thoughtless fashion can be a danger, but in the open spaces which are now considered to be potential national parks the main potential depredators have been Government Departments and statutory undertakings. It is against these powerful forces that those who wish to preserve the beauty of these areas have had to fight. That they have succeeded so well is a

  1487
  matter for congratulation to them and to us all.
  If the House will permit me I should like to mention my late friend John Dower, whose report is with us today as a memorial to his own great knowledge, taste and zeal in the public interest. I am sorry that he is not with us today to see the introduction of this Bill, but I should like to mention the great debt that all these various societies owe to his untiring labours and skilled perception. Perhaps I may also say a word of thanks to Sir Arthur Hobhouse and his colleagues, because I appointed the Hob-house Committee although, due to causes over which I had no control, I was not in office at the time they reported. There is no doubt that the whole House and the country owe these gentlemen a great debt of gratitude for the enthusiasm and public spirit which they brought to this difficult task. Further, we should not forget, when remembering famous men, Lord Chief Justice Scott's Committee on the Utilisation of Land in Rural Areas. Many of the proposals which appear in later reports, and in this Bill, find their origin in that excellent Report, and I should like to pay tribute to those who laboured to produce it.
  When so much divides hon. Members from one another, it is good to see a piece of good work, which has gone through several Departments, persevered with and coming to the prospect of fruition. I have, however, a complaint which I must make, namely, that considering the size and importance of the Bill so short a time has been allowed to the House and the public to study its provisions between publication and today's Second Reading. To those of us who are more or less familiar with the subject that is not so much a hardship, but this is a Bill which must affect many interests—not necessarily financial. Many people are interested in the multifarious aspects of this problem, and I think it would have been convenient if sufficient time had been allowed to enable those people to communicate with Members in all parts of the House. If that had been done, we might perhaps have had a more informed Second Reading Debate today.
  As the right hon. Gentleman truly said, this is a machinery Bill and many of its
  1488
  provisions can be more adequately discussed in Committee. I understand that we shall not commence that stage until after Easter and, that being so, I hope there will be time for representations which people desire to make to be put in the hands of hon. Members. I do not want it to be said in Committee, if a point is raised there for the first time, that it should have been mentioned on Second Reading. I have heard that done occasionally by Ministers, but on this Bill, on which I hope we shall all collaborate to make it a success, I hope we shall not hear that sort of reproach.
  The feature of the Bill which raises the chief question of principle, and which has incurred for the Minister the express displeasure of some of the societies he mentioned in the latter part of his speech, is the position to which he has relegated the proposed National Parks Commission. Both the Dower and Hobhouse Reports, following the practice in the United States, Canada and South Africa, recommended that for national parks there should be established a national commission. Paragraph 46 of the Hobhouse Report states:
  "We concur with the view expressed in the Dower Report that the central administration of the National Parks scheme will require 'a body of high standing, expert qualification, substantial independence and permanent constitution, which will uphold, and be regarded by the public as holding, the landscape, architectural and recreational values whose dominance is the essential purpose of National Parks' and that these requirements will be fulfilled by a National Parks Commission. This body should be composed of persons whose qualities of judgment and wisdom will command the respect of Parliament and the nation, and should contain at least a proportion of members who have personal knowledge of some of the National Park areas and their particular problems and requirements."
  The report sets out what the Commission's responsibility should be:
  "to frame policy for the planning and management of the Parks, to see that it is fully and effectively applied, and to supervise the expenditure of money for this purpose. They will further be responsible for the provision of advice and guidance, and the allocation of monetary grants, to the local authorities concerned with the planning and management of Conservation Areas."
  That was the definition of the functions and status of the Commission which emerged from these two reports. It is clear that this conception in the meantime has been through the departmental

  1489
  mangle and has emerged considerably flattened out.
  It is not too easy in the present draft of the Bill to see what are the status and the powers of the proposed National Parks Commission. I welcome the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman that we should be given a memorandum which brings them together. It seems from the Bill that really they are largely advisory and very different from what I have just read from the Hobhouse Report. For example, under Clause 2 (2) the tenure of office of these Commissioners is insecure. The Clause says:
  "The members of the Commission shall be appointed by the Minister and shall hold office on such terms as to tenure and vacation of office as the Minister may determine."
  They seem to be given no permanent constitutional position or even contracts, as was considered desirable by the Hobhouse Committee. By subsection (4) they cannot even appoint a secretary without the Minister's approval, and their officers and servants can be appointed only with the approval of the Minister and the consent of the Treasury. By Clause 3 they have to comply with the general directions of the Minister. By Clause 5 they may designate areas to be known as national parks after consultation with local planning authorities and approval by the Minister, but thereafter the role of the National Parks Commission with regard to national parks, seems to be almost entirely that of an advisory committee. They can, of course, act in that advisory capacity. I am not decrying or trying to minimise the importance of skilled advice. They can make recommendations. Indeed, these are very important powers, but there is nothing in the Bill to say what is to happen to the recommendations supposing they are disregarded by those whose duty it is to pay attention to them.
  The Hobhouse Committee recommended that the local committee for a park should have its chairman and half its members appointed by the Commission. In this Bill the Commission appoints no one to the local parks committee. The Minister nominates a quarter and he is supposed to, and will, consult the Commission before he does so. Clause 8 deals with the development plan for a national park. It seems that a local planning authority is enjoined to
  1490
  consult with the Commission and to take into consideration their observations. But what happens if the advice of the Commission is ignored, is not stated. As far as the Bill says anything, what happens is precisely nothing.
  Clause 9 states the general duty of the Commission. It is clear from that Clause that, as I said, this is an advisory body. This is borne out by Clause 10 which says that they may make observations on the proposals of the local planning authority just as I can make observations on the right hon. Gentleman's Bill, but with as little effect. In every case, the Commission has to consult with the local planning authorities before they can do anything; but that traffic is one-way. For example, Clause 12 gives power to the local planning authorities to provide accommodation, meals, camping sites and so on. Nothing in the Clause says that they are under any obligation to consult the Commission on these matters. I should have thought that the National Parks Commission, if they were to have anything effective to say, should have had a say on the selection of sites of camps which is a matter for careful and expert guidance.
  Similarly, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Broads. That is a peculiarly difficult problem. Not only are there the difficulties to which he alluded but there is a multiplicity of authorities there. There are harbour authorities which have jurisdiction so far as the tide goes; there are other authorities concerned with river pollution, which is a most vital matter; and there are at least a dozen other bodies concerned with various features of the life of the place.
  I should have thought that in all cases like that the Commission ought to be consulted on any plan for the area if they are to be of the status and qualifications mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, as I have no doubt they will be. I think they might be of great help in getting through the tangle, but it is clear that the Commission cannot hold any land in a national park. Clauses 15 and 63 make it plain that any land acquired in the parks is to be held by the Minister. Nor do they have the power, as was recommended in the Reports, to allocate money under a system of priorities to the various projects and purposes of the national parks.

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  I go no further at the moment than to say that this is a very different conception of the status and functions of the National Parks Commission from that recommended by the Dower and Hobhouse Reports. If the right hon. Gentleman is a little nettled at the criticisms of the voluntary societies, he must, as I am sure he does, appreciate that these enthusiasts who have worked so long and so zealously for national as distinct from local parks feel a certain amount of disappointment about this matter. I have no doubt that they feel that to the Commission recommended by the Dower and Hobhouse Reports, this Commission bears about the same relation as what is called a baby's comforter bears to a real feeding bottle. It may, by superficial resemblance, attract and soothe the innocent, but it stops short and there is nothing behind it.
  We on this side of the House have every desire to maintain the proper independence of local authorities and to entrust them with the performance of their own duties. We have had occasion to protest from time to time that local authorities have had their functions absorbed by the State. On the general question of town and country planning I have myself always believed that the local initiative is indispensable. I was critical of the proposal which is now enshrined in the Act of 1944 whereby planning functions were concentrated in county councils. I still believe that rural councils should have more say in their own locality. The county capital in some shires is as remote almost as Whitehall.
  Mr. M. Philips Price: Not in Gloucestershire.
  Mr. Morrison: The hon. Gentleman and I happen to sit for an exceptionally fine county.
  Those who have criticised the right hon. Gentleman for the shadowy and attenuated form in which the Commission is now presented to us, would regard the spectre with less misgiving if they thought that it resulted in a real increase in the independence and powers of the local planning authority. We must, of course, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said today, give this matter further consideration, and I shall content myself by expressing the opinion
  1492
  that it would have been best to form some body like this Commission which would have been able to be of more assistance to local planning authorities in carrying out this new duty.
  Therefore, if it is the Government's policy that the Commission is to be of the character which the right hon. Gentleman described, we shall have to look more closely at the local arrangements for planning the parks. It surely seems necessary to secure that each of these areas shall be planned as a whole, with some coherent national purpose in view. I do not find that the provisions of this Bill are yet apt to secure this. When more than one county council is involved, I think it should be obligatory to have a joint board to cover the whole area of the park. The right hon. Gentleman instanced the case where the amount of land in one county was disproportionately small compared with the area of the whole, but I think it would be wise administratively to give them proportional representation on the joint planning body, so that it could not be said that one county was planning the land of another.
  It seems to me that we have to look again at this proviso in Clause 7 (2), which seems to exclude the obligation in every case to have a joint planning body for an indefinite period which is described as "for the time being," of which I am unable to determine the length, and which I am not able to interpret. There are other points raising these more local conceptions of this work, but I think they are more appropriate to the Committee stage of the Bill.
  Part III of the Bill deals with nature conservation, and I am sure it is very welcome to every hon. Member of the House. It is extraordinary that, in spite of its dense population and tremendous activity, this island should still be the habitat of beasts, birds and plants of the greatest interest and variety. These are our fellow creatures with us in our own country. They are, it is true, unrationed and they do not pay any taxes. They follow their own way of life, and perish like us in time, to give place to fresh generations of their kind. Their observation has been a delight to the simple and their study a pleasure to the curious from the beginnings of human history, and I am in agreement with what is proposed

  1493
  here, which is in line with the Dower Report.
  I cannot, however, refrain from commenting on Clause 23. It is a short one, and it says:
  "Where the Nature Conservancy are of opinion that any area of land, not being land for the time being managed as a nature reserve, is of special interest by reason of its flora, fauna, or geological or physiographical features, it shall be the duty of the Conservancy to notify that fact to the local planning authority in whose area the land is situated."
  That is all right, but what happens then? The Bill does not say, it goes on to talk about the annual report of the Nature Conservancy. It seems to me that, whenever the right hon. Gentleman opposite comes up against a local planning authority, he seems to strike against a sort of iron curtain. It is the same here as with the national parks. Commissions and Conservancies can notify, inform and recommend, but, if the notification, information or recommendation is disregarded, nothing happens. We are left with the pious hope that all these, together with all other relevant considerations, will be borne in mind. We may even be promised active consideration, whatever that means. As a broad administrative point, I say to the Minister that there is no surer way of asking for trouble than providing for a conflict of opinion and failing to provide some means for resolving that conflict.
  I have only one other comment on these proposals. I feel sure that those who manage these nature reserves will be at pains to ensure that they do not become reserves for harmful vermin—rats, rabbits and common predatory creatures of all kinds. If this is not done, apart from the damage to food production in the neighbourhood, these reserves will be regarded with aversion by the surrounding local population, and this would be an unhappy start which none of us wants to see.
  I come now to Part IV, which deals both with public footpaths and rights of way. I am sure that everyone will be in general sympathy and agreement with these proposals. The process must, of course, begin with a survey, which is provided for in Clause 27. I hope it may be possible to complete it in less than the three years, but I am at the same time fully aware of the difficulties created
  1494
  by the absence of skilled staff. There is one point about these footpaths which I would suggest to the Minister and to his colleague the Minister of Agriculture. The right hon. Gentleman himself referred to it in his speech, and I was glad to hear what he said, though I was not quite sure if he goes as far as I would wish. The point is that the Bill provides for the creation of new footpaths and rights of way, and that is an excellent thing. There is no better way of protecting farms from damage by ramblers than by the ample provision of places where they may walk and do no damage.
  But, now that we are to have this survey and the whole matter is being looked at anew, should we not take this opportunity to stop up some old rights of way which are embarrassing to agriculture, substituting for them new paths equally convenient or more convenient for ramblers? What I have in mind is that some of these old rights of way in the country date from a period long before the present location of the buildings and farms which surround them. We often have a right of way going right through a farmyard, with all the risks of gates being left open. The risk is not so serious when the path is used only by country neighbours, but, with the increased access of urban dwellers, for which this Bill provides and which we hope to see, the risk becomes greater. Again, we may have an old path or right of way running diagonally across a field, transforming its quadrilateral into two separate triangles, which complicates ploughing very greatly and increases the time and cost of the whole operation. I suggest that this aspect of the matter should be looked at carefully in order to find means of substituting new paths for old in the interests of food production in our agricultural districts.
  I also extend a very hearty welcome to Part V of the Bill, with its provisions for access to open country. I find that the term "open country" itself has given rise to misapprehensions and misunderstandings. In a sense, the most highly cultivated farm is open country if we compare it with a built-up area. It is clear from the definition in Clause 48 that what is meant by "open country" in this Bill is, in the main, really uncultivated land. Of course, cultivated and uncultivated land

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  are often neighbours, and it is here that the danger of damage comes in. In my view, damage arises much more from ignorance than from wickedness, though there is sometimes an element of wantonness which is a sort of amalgam of the two. The real safeguard must, in the long run, be education in country courtesy, but this takes time and experience to cultivate.
  It is true that under the Bill a rambler loses his immunity from an action for trespass if he does any of the things forbidden by Clause 49, but I personally have never had much faith in or liking for actions for trespass. To start with, we must rely on the power to make by-laws which is contained in Clause 73, and on the wardens whom it is proposed to appoint under Clause 74. If these wardens are of the right type they can be of great help to farmer and rambler alike, but they will take time to recruit and train in the first place.
  This brings me to one general point of policy with regard to access whether in national parks or elsewhere. I am anxious to see the more intimate relations between townsmen and countrymen start with no soreness, but with a friendly desire to understand each other's wishes and problems. This is largely a matter of timing access, because the access agreements and the access orders will all take some time to frame, to conclude, and to establish, and we must start somewhere. I suggest that we make a start by opening up uncultivated land, where the risk of damage is small, before we proceed to include areas of higher cultivation where the risk of damage is much greater. These can come when education has proceeded and by-laws have been made and published, and when wardens have been recruited and trained. If this movement progresses, as I hope it will, I do not think that we shall lose any time in gaining complete access to healthy parts of the country, and, at the same time, do what is so important, ensure that the whole amalgam of townsmen and countrymen is a success instead of starting off on the wrong foot.
  Take, for instance, the proposed park in the Yorkshire Dales. I think it would be well to make a start with the higher land of the Pennines and include the beautiful dales, like Wensley Dale, when the neces-
  1496
  sary preparation to safeguard this world famous dale and its equally famous dairy and livestock industry are well advanced. I think similar considerations apply to the Peak of Derbyshire, and I hope that we shall hear in this Debate from my hon. Friend for the The High Peak (Mr. Molson) who has consistently taken a keen interest in national parks, and whose local knowledge is naturally more extensive and more intimate than mine can hope to be. I know that many hon. Members wish to speak in this Debate, and I shall no longer abuse my position on this Front Bench. I look forward to our further consideration of this Measure, and I think I can promise on behalf of my hon. Friends that our criticism will be as helpful as we can make it, and that we shall support the Motion which is before the House.
  5.55 p.m.
  Mr. M. Philips Price: I am very glad that the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison) referred in his closing remarks to the great importance of understanding between town and country men, and I think that this Bill will be one of the means by which that is to be brought about. It is, indeed, an epoch-making Measure, and, in a sense, a charter for the British people after their very long struggle to obtain rights of access to the natural beauty of this country.
  As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, there are many provisions in this Bill which are difficult to understand and which will require to be carefully threshed out in Committee. My own feeling is that much will depend on the type of person sitting on advisory and local planning committees and on the National Parks Commission, as to whether the correct thing is done and whether they understand each other. At the same time, it is the business of this House to try to set up machinery of such a kind as will avoid as much misunderstanding as possible and which will resolve the difficulties as they arise.
  I am very glad that my right hon. Friend in moving the Second Reading pointed out that this is a small country and that we cannot sterilise large areas of it; it must also be considered for agricultural and forestry purposes and for the development of our national wealth. At a time like this we cannot afford to sterilise large areas of the country. Moreover, the

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  interests of the native population of the areas of the national parks must be considered, studied, and protected. In fact, a balance must be sought between public recreation, scientific research, the economic interest of the native population and the national interest in developing agriculture and forestry. Hence the Bill by its very nature must, to some extent, be a compromise between many interests.
  The devotees of natural beauty preservation are too apt to think that preservation must mean leaving great areas of the country untouched and uninterfered with by man. One appreciates, of course, the long struggle they have put up, but they must understand that if these national parks are to be set up, we cannot interfere too much either with the native interests involved there, or with the interest of agriculture and forestry that may be there. In fact, within the area of these national parks, some forestry and some agriculture must continue, for it is not possible to leave nature alone. Nature is never static; if it is left alone, chaos may result. What is open mountainside one day, open to ramblers and where sheep are grazing, may become bracken-infested slopes if left indefinitely, and there is no alternative form of grazing or management. It is just that which has happened to large areas in the Highlands of Scotland, in the North of England, and in Wales where the land has been over-sheeped and has become sheep sick.
  National parks must be managed just like any well managed agricultural or forest estate—managed either by alternative grazing, not just with one type of livestock, or in some cases with alternative cropping arrangements. In fact, agriculture and livestock grazing must go on even inside national parks and, moreover, the access of the public must be controlled so as to make it possible for this to continue. The public must observe rules and keep their dogs under control at certain prescribed times of the year. Furthermore, fires are a great danger to young plantations, especially in the Spring. That is very important. There are also certain sporting interests which I think should be protected. Sport in these days is not something engaged in only by a few rich people. Quite a lot of people of all classes of life like a day's shooting.
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  I am not quite sure what is to happen in this connection because in paragraph (f) of the Second Schedule it looks as though shooting of wild life will be interfered with. That may be necessary, particularly in a nature conservancy, but I see no reason why sport should not be allowed to continue. There is another aspect of this problem: local authorities are interested in the assistance they receive from the assessment of sporting rights which in some cases are quite considerable, and if these rights are abolished it may be necessary to pay compensation. I am quite certain that the public will respond to all this, but it may mean that they will have to be educated to it, for instance, in not allowing dogs to roam about in the time of the nesting season for birds. That affects not only sport but the conservation of wild life generally. There is always a dangerous period for a few weeks when birds are breeding and in that period dogs must be kept very strictly under control. On days when shooting is allowed the public must be asked to keep to certain paths and not to use others.
  I think the Forestry Commission should be called in to assist in advising upon, and possibly actually undertaking, work inside the national parks, because the Commission has great experience in this matter of forestry management together with public access. For instance, the Commission has for years most successfully run national forest parks. At Ardgartan in Argyle and in my constituency, the Forest of Dean, there are most successful national forest parks which have been running for years. In the Forest of Dean it was actually started before the war. Hikers and campers can get accommodation, camping ground, food, water and shelter for the night and, from my own experience and from that of those in my constituency who are interested in this matter, I can say that the National Forest Park at Christchurch in the Forest of Dean is increasingly frequented and extremely popular. It should be a model for the camping sites which are proposed in the national parks when, in due course, they are created.
  In fact, here is a case where public access and recreation can go hand in hand with the growing of timber—a vital national need. The Forestry Commission

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  has a very big programme in hand in trying to implement the report which it published just before the end of the war, called "Post-war forest policy." It aims at growing one-third of our national timber requirements, and that is vital to our balance of payments problem and to the economic position of this country. I see no reason why this should in any way conflict with the creation of national parks. Even the original Dower report recognised in Section 8 and also in map 2, that there were large areas outside the proposed national parks—areas like the Scottish borders, Wales, the Down-lands of the South-East of England and the South of England, the Cotswolds, and the heathlands of East Anglia—which would be better looked after by bodies other than a National Park Commission, bodies such as the Forestry Commission, the local authorities and in same cases, no doubt, where there are special things of antiquity which should be preserved, the National Trust.
  We return to the idea that national parks, such as those proposed in this Bill, must be only one of the ways by which the public obtain access to the countryside. Of course, the national parks will cover the more primaeval areas of nature where probably there is less agriculture and less forestry than in other areas and where the public will already have access, such as those areas to which I have referred, but even so there must remain in these national parks a certain amount of agriculture and, in particular, a certain amount of forestry. Thus, under this plan I think Great Britain will become covered by a chessboard of areas with varying degrees of public access and varying intensity of agriculture and forestry.
  I am glad that in an important part of this Bill provision is made for there to be full opportunities for Nature Conservancy to function. The Hobhouse Committee recommended conservation areas outside the areas of the national parks. It seems to me that that is not included in this Bill, but that the special function of the conservation areas recommended in the Hobhouse Committee will be fulfilled by the Nature Conservancy Board which will have a Royal Charter, and I think by that means its general status and prestige will be increased. I must say I am a little concerned about
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  one matter in connection with nature conservancy.
  What is to be the position of Scotland and its relation to England and Wales? Officially, Scotland is taken together with England and Wales in the nature conservancy, yet I know the Scots have very strong feelings about this and would like to run their own show, like all Scotsmen. We must try to work out some means by which Scotland can have local autonomy in nature conservancy. Yet we must consider the question of finance, which apparently will be centralised. I do hope these two differences can be resolved. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply, to say a word or two about what he thinks to be the best way of resolving this demand of the Scots for local autonomy in this matter with the need to keep some sort of central control.
  There is also the question of the controversy which has arisen in the Press over the appointments—one-fourth by the Minister and the remainder from local authorities. On the whole, I think the Minister is right to give a very considerable share of responsibility to the local authorities. Local interests must not be overriden. I think the county councils are very capable of administering a matter of this kind, especially as they are the authorities for town and country planning. At the same time I am not sure that one-fourth representation of the centre is not a little too small. I am inclined to think it could be raised to a third. We can consider that in Committee. On the other hand, I think the Minister has sufficient powers through the purse and the 75 per cent. Government grant and his powers over default to be able to prod those local authorities that are not up to the mark.
  I am glad that an important Clause of the Bill deals with footpaths. For some years past I have seen a tendency for public rights of way to be whittled away and lost. It is extremely important that that matter should be looked into. Parish councils, which have the job of safeguarding the public interest here, often have not sufficient authority to do it, or have not the right people on them to stand up to local owners—farmers and owners—who close the public footpaths. I should like to know if it is possible by the provisions of this Bill to reopen footpaths which have become disused.

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  That is very important. I know of some that have been allowed through laxity to become disused. I am glad the public will have access after a certain number of years of use. However, I want to know about the reverse situation—whether, if a footpath has fallen out of use, it can be reopened by the provisions of this Bill. I hope this Bill will get on the Statute Book after due examination in Committee. No doubt it will have to have a good thrashing out in Committee, because there are many things we should like to make clear, and we want the Bill to be a success.
  6.12 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Salter: With the professed purposes of this Bill I am sure hon. Members in all parts of the House will be in cordial agreement. Nevertheless, in regard to the first and, I think, the most important purpose, specified in Part II of the Bill, the preservation and enhancement of natural beauty, I fear that those best acquainted with the problem are seriously disappointed with the Bill as it is presented. And I fear that it may later be a. source of considerable disillusionment to the general public, who understand the purpose but who have not studied the particular methods prescribed on which the attainment of that purpose will depend. I say that only as regards this one purpose. With regard to all the other purposes of the Bill, the second purpose in Part II—that of providing facilities—the purpose of Part III, nature conservation, of Part IV and Part V, rights of way and access, I think the powers are sufficient. I have no criticisms to make now about them, and I think that they will probably achieve what they aim at. Some of them, of course, will make the attainment of the first purpose more difficult. For example, it may be that some of the provisions—for catering establishments, for instance—may make it more difficult to preserve, let alone to enhance, natural beauty. But if this first and most important purpose—I say "most important" because if there were defects in the provisions as to access and public rights, and the provision of catering establishments, those defects could easily be remedied later—if the first purpose is not achieved, if beauty is destroyed, the destruction may be irremediable. I gravely fear that when our successors
  1502
  look back after, say, 10 years, and ask what has happened, it is more likely that they will say that, on balance, beauty has been destroyed or diminished, rather than that it has been preserved and enhanced.
  I should like to give certain reasons why I think that is so. In the first place, I think that both the Town and Country Planning Act and this Bill are based on the assumption that the principal threats to the beauty of the country come from ill-regulated or insufficiently controlled private activities of individuals or companies, and that, therefore, the answer is to secure that there are adequate powers for public authorities to control them. That was true in the 19th century. I believe it is an obsolete assumption now. I believe that it is now the opposite of the truth. I believe that the main threats to the preservation of the natural beauty of this country now come from public authorities, local or central.
  If we are thinking of the kind of activity that is likely to destroy a national park, I have only to cite the opposition to the removal of the factory on Lake Windermere by the county council; or the question of the Ennerdale Reservoir; or the cement works in the Hope Valley; or the invasion of Dartmoor. And coming from the local authorities to the national Government, the kind of thing that is likely to destroy beauty and to destroy these national parks will be, for example, the desire of the Board of Trade to develop parts of Cumberland, that is the Lake District, as Development Areas; the desire of the Ministry of Transport to drive a great special road, endangering the Backs of Cambridge, or possibly running through one of the national parks contemplated here; or the nationalised electricity authority's planning of large new electrical establishments, let us say, in North Wales; or the Gas Board of the recently nationalised gas industry proposing new horrors blocking the view on the main approaches to a city like Oxford. Again the threat may come, and on a bigger scale, from the War Office, desiring to add to the Plain of Salisbury other parts of Wiltshire for training purposes. Or it may, of course, come from the Air Ministry.
  It is, in my view, threats of that kind from local or national authorities that are the threats of the present time, the

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  main obstacles in the way of the preservation of the natural beauty of this country. I am not saying that any of these purposes are improper. I am not saying that any of them is unnecessary. Quite obviously, however, in regard to any one of them the question will arise whether a particular location is the right one; whether in a particular instance the balance is rightly struck between the immediate economy and convenience of a particular site to a Department and the destruction of beauty; and whether a slight loss of economy or convenience should not be sustained to avoid an intolerable damage to natural beauty.
  I shall say something in a moment of the way in which the machinery of Government in this country works. We have what are, in fact, great Departments of the Government, not only the Departments in the strict sense, like the War Office, but nationalised concerns, as the interested parties in such questions. We must, I think, have this as a background when we try to assess the prospect that the objects of this Bill will be achieved. Against that background I should like to look a little more closely at some of the specific provisions, and first of all at the national parks dealt with in Parts I and II of the Bill.
  I think this Bill's name is a very seriously misleading misnomer. I do not think that these are either national or parks. The Minister has explained to us that in using the word "park" he is not using it in a sense that is included in any dictionary and not using it to mean what is meant by "national parks" in other countries—the United States, South Africa or New Zealand. I do not object to his coining a new use for that phrase, but it may mislead a considerable number of people who think that a park is either what their dictionary tells them it is, or what they have seen it to be in other countries.
  I recognise, however, the reasons given by the Minister for the difference between parks in this country and parks in other countries to which he referred. What I think is more serious is when we come to the other part of that phrase "national." These parks are essentially local parks and not national parks. The criterion is surely this: Where is the centre of gravity in the powers provided
  1504
  for the management of these parks? The Parks Commission have certain powers. But they are purely advisory and may be neglected for this purpose. There remains the national Government. If one asks: "Will the authorities who are running these parks really secure that they are national parks in the sense in which the Bill intends; and what is the authority that will effectively determine that?" I think that there is no doubt that it is the local ratepayers' authority and not the national Government who will do that.
  It is true that the Government have certain powers. The Government have the power of the purse and can probably control the action of the local planning authorities when what is wanted is money to develop something, such as catering establishments; but when the Government are confronted with a reluctance to do with a particular national park area what this Bill comtemplates, the balance of power is surely with the local ratepayers' authority, and it is their attitude of mind that will determine the result. The whole idea of a national park is, of course, that in certain exceptionally beautiful areas there is a national heritage in which the national interest is important and indeed should predominate by comparison with the local interest. If, therefore, we set out to have a national park and then we arrange our powers so that the centre of gravity of the powers is with the local authority, we have, I think, converted the national park into a local park, and that is what has been done in these provisions.
  I therefore think that the phrase "national park" is a misnomer in regard to both its terms. A very celebrated ecclesiastic once said that Christian Science was so-called because he was informed that it was not scientific and he knew that it was not Christian. A somewhat similar observation is I think appropriate to the Minister's term "national park" in the Bill which he has presented to us. It is true, of course, that while I think the centre of gravity of the powers is with the local planning authority, the national Government have sufficient powers to do a great deal. But on the whole what the Government as a whole will mainly do is, I believe, to destroy the beauty of the country and not preserve it. This is not out of but because so many of the schemes that threaten

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  national beauty come from specialised Government Departments which have a particular interest which naturally predominates against the more general interest of preserving national beauty. Against the specialised and eager interest of a strong Department, I think that the Minister will usually be incapable of securing the same kind of impartial judgment, the balancing of advantages and disadvantages, as he would be able to secure if the interest in question was a private interest and not a Department of the Government.
  I think that there is an illusion in the public mind that when a great department of the national life is taken over by the State, which is supposed to be the guardian of the public interest, the general interest of the public will be safer than when that part of the national life was still in the hands of private interests. I believe that that is not only not true but that it is the precise opposite of the truth. Let me take, as an example, the instance to which I have just referred—the proposal that there should be further developments by the gas authorities near the approaches to Oxford. There we have the City opposition, the University opposition and the Oxford Preservation Trust opposition. I am sure that we have too the inner sympathy of the Minister with those who are objecting to this proposal. I am quite sure that if gas had not been nationalised and there was no national gas authority, supported as it naturally is by the Minister of Fuel and Power, the opponents to that proposal would prevail; at least I am quite sure that they would have a much greater chance of prevailing than they will now that gas has become nationalised.
  That is how the thing works under a Government machine. Many of us in this House have had experience of how Government Departments work with each other, and how the Cabinet works. A particular Department and a Minister with all his expert advisers will have worked up their case; they say quite truly that there is a convenience in a particular horror being sited in a place of beauty rather than elsewhere; they can save money and it is more convenient; the experts have worked out all their figures to the last decimal. Against such specialised official evidence, I suggest that the Minister will usually not find
  1506
  that he is strong enough to resist successfully. The dice are loaded against him all the time. They are much more strongly loaded against him than if he were controlling a private interest. So I suggest it will be when he comes to the Cabinet. The Minister concerned with a particular scheme will push his scheme so far as he can; and the Minister responsible only for the more general duty of preserving beauty will almost always lose.
  That is now the new, and the greatest, danger. There is at least a possible partial remedy. I do not now suggest that the Government should go back on the whole of their nationalisation programme. What I do urge is that the Government should consider the proposal made by the Hobhouse Committee in, I think, paragraph 116, that there should be a permanent Cabinet Committee watching problems of this kind. When a particular Departmental Minister comes with his scheme for gas or electricity or a special road or whatever it may be, he would then find himself confronted not with one Minister, and a less specialised and powerful Minister, but with a permanent Committee of Ministers who may develop the proper traditions with regard to these problems. I venture to press that suggestion on Ministers and upon the Government generally.
  I come lastly to the question of the National Parks Commission. It is here, of course, that the voluntary activities of the voluntary associations of the country, so far as they obtain representation in this Bill, are to be found. I have no doubt that the Minister will appoint among the members of the Parks Commission some of the people who have been associated with the great voluntary associations of this country—voluntary associations which have, of course, in the era between the industrial uncontrol of the 19th century and the present time done so much to restrain the previous regrettable developments of ugliness. They have done a great deal to preserve, so far as it has been preserved, the natural beauty of this country. They have been able to do that because they have been strongly organised bodies of ardent and public spirited people who have given their time to the task, and who have been able to influence Parliament and to move Governments. They were able to move

  1507
  Governments more easily at a time when Governments themselves were not, to the extent to which they now are, interested parties; when Governments were more nearly in a position to take the place of a judge upon the bench instead of being, as they are in a great proportion of cases now, both the judge upon the bench and the defendant. These voluntary societies, so far as they are represented at all, are represented in the National Parks Commission.
  Now I agree with the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison), that the National Parks Commission has really been reduced to an almost impotent role. It has a great number of duties of a kind; the list of rights is pretty considerable; but the powers of the Commission are not only mainly advisory, they are wholly advisory—and advisory on matters upon which it is highly unlikely, except in one or two cases, that their advice will prevail against contrary interests. It is true that they have one advisory duty of some importance, that of recommending, subject to the confirmation of the Minister, as to the delimitation or choice of, the areas. That seems to me however the least important of duties, because, after all, the areas are more or less known; the work has been very largely done by the Hobhouse Committee. There may be rectifications of frontiers here and there, but that does not very much matter. What does matter is what is done inside the areas when chosen.
  As regards the other power to which the Minister referred, that of advising him on the allocation of finance, I think that may be of some importance in regard to the positive duty of providing facilities, but of very little use when it comes to a question of securing that a reluctant local planning authority shall take steps to prevent what would defeat the purposes of this Bill. In general I think it fair to say that the Commission, in its terms of appointment and dismissal and in regard to its powers, is fundamentally different from the proposals of the Hob-house Committee, and this is an absolutely vital feature in the whole Bill.
  The Minister said that Sir Arthur Hob-house might be pleased because he had got 90 per cent. of his proposals adopted. Well, I do not know how the Minister
  1508
  makes his percentage calculation. I confess that I greatly distrust these statistical percentage calculations on matters where statistical calculation is really not possible. When the Lord President of the Council says that 20 per cent. of the country's economy is to be nationalised and 80 per cent. is to be free, that is very misleading to any member of the public who does not at the same moment consider that the whole of the 80 per cent. depend upon the economic efficiency of the remaining 20 per cent. I can, however, at least understand the statistical basis of the Lord President's 20 per cent. and 80 per cent. But I cannot imagine what statistical criteria were taken by the Minister when he says that Sir Arthur Hobhouse had had 90 per cent. of his proposals adopted. He may have counted the lines, I do not know. I suggest that we want qualitative rather than quantitative criteria. On qualitative criteria it seems to me quite clear that a much less proportion of what that Committee recommended has been adopted, when we consider the powers, or the absence of powers, of the Commission in the Bill as presented in contrast with the powers proposed in the Hobhouse Report.
  In effect, this National Parks Commission is confined and restricted; it is appointed, every member of it, by the Minister and dismissible by the Minister, without permanence of any kind, without anything that secures, in any real sense, independence. It has indeed certain possibilities of, I think the Minister said, propaganda. But the propaganda of a body so appointed by and so controlled by a Government Department will certainly only be propaganda that is in exact accordance with the policy of the Government; it will not be the sort of appeal to the public that will be effective against the will of the Government. The Commission is, I suggest, muzzled; that part of the voluntary effort of the country which is at all represented in this Bill is muzzled so that its bark shall be muffled and its teeth cannot be used. I think that a not unfair description of this Commission as it is. I also think it not unfair to say that the most important parts of the Hobhouse Committee Report, so far as they are concerned with this purpose—I am not referring to the other purposes of the Bill, but to the purpose

  1509
  of preserving and enhancing natural beauty—have not been embodied in the Bill.
  I do not say all that as a mere lament. I do not say it to indicate that I am opposing the Second Reading of this Bill, because I am not. I do so as a preface to my last suggestions to the Government, which are that they should add some compulsive powers, such as those contemplated in the Hobhouse Committee Report, to the National Parks Commission, subject to a central Minister; and secondly, that within the machinery of Government there should be a permanent Cabinet Committee as proposed by the Hobhouse Committee. The Minister responsible for this Bill would then not be left to struggle alone against the specialised Minister wishing to push through a scheme threatening natural beauty. He would, as a member of a permanent Cabinet Committee interested in the same purpose as himself, be reinforced by his colleagues.
  6.38 p.m.
  Mrs. Castle: Before the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) introduced his attack on statistics, I had intended to congratulate my right hon. Friend on 90 per cent. of his Bill.
  Sir A. Salter: If the hon. Lady would care to speculate on how the 90 per cent. was calculated, I should be very interested.
  Mrs. Castle: I am afraid that if I dealt with that I should get sidetracked from the main burden of my speech tonight. However, I do say to my right hon. Friend that I think this Bill is a great step forward towards the purposes we want to achieve. About the only quarrel I have with the speech of the senior Burgess is that I think he belittled too sweepingly what the Bill does achieve, the immense importance of a large proportion of the Bill, and the effect it will have both in preserving natural beauty and making that natural beauty accessible to large masses of the people of our country who have not had access to it before. I can well understand the pride with which my right hon. Friend has come to the House this afternoon, and I agree with him that he has every right to point to his record as a Minister in these last few years, and to the series of milestones which has
  1510
  marked his path at the Front Bench in town planning and the preservation of all that is best in the English countryside.
  The 1947 Act and this Bill are important factors in the social revolution that is now taking place. They mark the end of the disinheritance of the people of this country from enjoyment of the countryside. We are apt to take this new approach to the rights of the individual too much for granted. It is worth while turning back to the past. The atmosphere in 1931, for example, when Dr. Addison, the present Lord Addison, was preparing his report on this problem was quite different. If we read the report, we can see how diffident was the approach and how revolutionary was the idea. We can see what an enormous amount of propaganda was required to get acceptance of the view that property rights should not stand in the way of preservation of the national heritage and the bringing of the national treasure within reach of ordinary people. I can well understand my right hon. Friend coming to the House and saying, "After all, look at the 1947 Act which is only just coming into operation. It is a revolutionary Measure which gives local authorities wide new powers and you cannot ask me to undo all these powers today." I suggest that because he is so conscious of virtue, and rightly so, he is rather blind to the dangers which lie ahead in his path.
  I agree that the provisions of the Bill in regard to the granting of new rights of way and rights of access are, if not flawless, at least perfectible in Committee. I think that some of the proposals go much further than we had a right to expect. I particularly welcome the very important powers of initiative given to the National Parks Commission on the question of long-distance routes. We have in these powers the perfect machinery for the achievement of long-distance paths we have been hoping to see. I should like to think that some of the foot-slogging the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and some of my hon. Friends and I did last May has blazed the trail in that regard. It is because the Minister is so conscious of the progress that has been made and the potentialities under the recent legislation, that he has failed, with serious results, to face up to the need for a strong central

  1511
  body to strengthen his hand in the face of the perils that lie ahead.
  For I agree almost 100 per cent., if I may use that phrase, with the senior Burgess for Oxford University in regard to the depredations of Government Departments and Service Departments in particular. If the National Parks Commission has not the authority that the Hobhouse Committee thought it should have, then I am afraid Government Departments will get away unchecked with very dangerous encroachments on our limited and diminishing resources of beauty. I do not trust Government Departments to be the guardians of the aesthetic interests of the country. In fact, they are not only greedy but litter-minded. I have been constantly irritated in the past three years, when walking along the coastline of Hampshire or over the South Downs, to see the mess that has been left by the Service Departments in their retreat from the battle front. It is a mess which it seems to be no one's responsibility to clear up. There are tangles of rusty barbed wire and abandoned gunsites, and a total lack of responsibility is being shown by the Service Departments in clearing up after themselves at a time when we are trying to educate the public in this respect.
  This Bill is seriously inadequate in not giving to the National Parks Commission the right, as the Hobhouse Report suggested, to be consulted by Government Departments on proposals for developments in national parks. Like the senior Burgess for Oxford University, I regret that the proposal for setting up a permanent committee of the Cabinet for the hearing of appeals in disputes between Government Departments and the Minister has not been adopted. That is one of the prices we have to pay for the fear my right hon. Friend has shown throughout this Bill of encroaching on the rights of local authorities by setting up a strong and authoritative central body.
  What my right hon. Friend overlooks is that in this question of national parks, we are dealing with a very specialised problem indeed. In fact there would be no need for this legislation at all if we did not recognise that in these areas we have considerations that transcend local
  1512
  planning needs. I wondered, when I read this Bill, whether my right hon. Friend had really been converted in his heart of hearts, to the need for national parks. He admits that the machinery of the Bill makes it possible for local authorities to sabotage, if they are so minded, the purposes of this Bill. He takes the view that it is incumbent on him to trust the local authorities to co-operate, and he is confident that they will co-operate
  Mr. Silkin: What I admitted was that if the local authorities, the National Parks Commission, the Minister and the Government desired that the thing should not work, it would not work. I never suggested that the local authorities alone could sabotage the purposes of the Bill.
  Mrs. Castle: I am at a loss to interpret the exact meaning of that phrase, just as it is difficult to interpret from the Clauses of the Bill how the Bill will work out in practice. If my right hon. Friend is suggesting that the purposes of the Bill cannot be sabotaged by the local authorities because he has default powers, I think he is putting the matter on a rather precarious basis. It will not be a satisfactory situation if the local authorities are going to be pulling against the purposes of the Bill so that the Minister has to step in to carry out the ideas behind the Bill. What we need is local machinery keen to get ahead, but it is only reasonable to expect that the county council representatives on the local planning committees will have the interests of their ratepayers predominantly at heart. They would be defaulting in their responsibility as local representatives if the local interest were not, in the last resort, their final consideration.
  I should be prepared to agree that there will be very little field for dispute about a great deal of the purpose of the national parks, and that we should expect to see, even with the committees which the Minister visualises, a great deal of spontaneous co-operation on general planning. But I wonder if my right hon. Friend saw the leader in the "Manchester Guardian" the other day in which it was pointed out that there is at the moment in the county council elections, a candidate running for Grasmere, Rydal and Langdale, who is fighting the election on an election address which guarantees

  1513
  that the ratepayers will be protected from the possible effects of the National Parks Bill. In fact, part of the address, according to the "Manchester Guardian" runs as follows:
  "Those candidates who do not state in black and white that they are opposed to the activities of the Preservation Societies may be the wrong men. If they get on the council they may use the National Parks Bill against you."
  It goes on:
  "If you send me to the county council I will fight hard to attract light industries to Lakeland to employ our young people."
  It may be that the Minister, by setting up this machinery, which makes a specific point of local authority responsibility, may be creating the possibility of cleavage, strife and argument locally, and, indeed an electoral struggle on a matter which we should have thought would have been lifted above that level.
  I suggest that the problem is bigger than merely a question of the size of the national representation on these local committees. It is rather a question whether we are going to do as the Minister proposes and say to the local planning authority, "You get on with this job. You can add to your numbers from among those whom I will nominate, and you had better consult the National Parks Commission before you do anything. If you do not agree with the Commission, the appeal will come to me." That is the Minister's approach, and I suggest that that is a complete reversal of the idea of joint committees, which are linked to a central body through their chairmen and through officers acting jointly for the national and local bodies and which work under a national planning code. The main thing we need to do is to strengthen the relations of the central authority with those local committees, and if we do that it does not matter so very much what is the numerical representation on them.
  I am particularly anxious about this from a point of view which has not been mentioned so far, or if it has, it has been put rather from the opposite point of view by the senior Burgess for Oxford University. That is the question of the management of the parks. This is where I see the biggest danger of conflict between the local and national interests. Probably on the main questions affecting the preservation of beauty, the local commit tees will go ahead, but surely if the national parks
  1514
  means anything, they mean we have decided to extend the inheritance of the people to include enjoyment of these areas by all classes whether they live in towns, in the sprawling suburbs of our big cities or in the country, so that everybody can enjoy the most beautiful spots of our countryside.
  This is a very much bigger problem than the mere preservation of these areas. It is a question of popularising them. I do not use that in the Butlin sense but in the sense of accessibility. What I am concerned to see under this Bill is not merely that Lakeland and such places shall be maintained in all their intrinsic beauty, but that the disinherited of our towns shall be able to go there to an extent that has never been possible before, provided they go on terms which retain the national beauty of those areas. I am not suggesting that the Minister should organise char-a-banc trips and open roadhouses, but I am suggesting that at the moment in those areas there is an inadequacy of accommodation at a price and of a kind which will enable ordinary working people from our factories and mills, who want to go into the countryside because they love it, to have access to it.
  There is very much greater emphasis on this problem in the Hobhouse Report than I see reflected in the powers of the Bill. On page 44 of the Report it states that:
  "Expert advice on the present costs of building and furnishing leads us to believe that a considerable amount of new accommodation will have to be constructed and maintained on a non-profit-making basis or even at a loss."
  I cannot see a local committee, with a predominance of county council representatives representing ratepayers who have an interest in hotel accommodation and, as it were, in the exclusiveness of the area, becoming a body which is going to initiate satisfactorily the provision of accommodation of that sort. It is not necessarily directly of value to their ratepayers, and some cases it may be in competition with them. But we are not going to make our national parks national, unless there is going to be provisions within them of a kind and at a cost within the reach of people who have very seldom enjoyed holidays in those areas before.
  I appreciate that this is a Committee point, but I am concerned that, on my reading of the Bill, it does not appear that the local committees have power to

  1515
  make grants to voluntary bodies, such as the Youth Hostels Association or the W.T.A. and other similar bodies which ought to be encouraged under the Bill, in the sense that the Minister says they have. But certainly the Bill puts a very different emphasis on this side of the work from that put by the Hobhouse Committee, which viewed the National Parks Commission as a body taking the initiative throughout the national parks as a whole, in an attempt to open them up, in the best sense of that term, to people wanting to go to them for the open-air life.
  Again, the Hobhouse Report goes very much further than the Bill does on the question of the enjoyment of the parks. We have tended in the past to consider that the working-class enjoyment of the open air must necessarily and permanently be limited to hiking and cycling. That is not the vision we get from the Hobhouse Report. It proposes to provide sporting rights for working people through the work of the National Parks Commission in purchasing and leasing sports rights, in encouraging riding clubs, anglers' associations, boating clubs, sailing clubs and all those adventurous amenities, which have been beyond the purse of the ordinary working people in the past. The Hobhouse Report believes that they ought to be provided in our national parks for our people as a whole.
  That involves a degree of drive and vision which I cannot see coming from a series of local committees, all of whom are a little bit worried lest they may be spoiling what has been the nice preserve of one or two fortunate people in the past. That is my most serious anxiety about the Minister's emphasis on the Bill, and I hope that he will seriously reconsider his attitude to this matter in the Committee stage. I hope he will ponder whether it is not his duty to the great masses of the people in our towns, who are longing to go out into the sun and air and enjoy the heritage of the countryside and live more fully than they have ever done in the past, to reconsider the powers that he has given to the central body and to decide that he must enlarge those powers and strengthen the Commission.
  7.0 p.m.
  Sir Ian Fraser: The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs.
  1516
  Castle) said that the weakness of the Bill is that it does not enable the central Government to spend enough money. It is to be criticised because we cannot run things in great numbers and in many places at a loss. We are not, for example, to allow light industries in the Lake District. We are to open the countryside to the people—I can imagine the hon. Lady making these speeches in other places and with less restraint—and we are to ignore utterly the practical facts about the countryside upon which we live. If she and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, want to stride across Lakeland ignoring its interests and preventing the people there from making their living, where is the money to come from to pay for all those things?
  I support the Measure because it is modest and because it approaches this subject sensibly and wisely. I must say that the right hon. Gentleman made such a lugubrious speech in introducing the Bill that it seemed that he was not himself pleased with it, but I am, for the very reason that it is so modest and that it does not place burdens upon us in these times, considering the way we are going, that I fear we could not possibly afford. It is a pleasure to have a Measure in this House which proposes to open up the countryside, when the Armed Forces have been spending so much time closing it to all concerned.
  I note that the outdoor societies, national and local, are disappointed with the Measure. I do not think they should be. It takes a very long time to persuade a great mass of public opinion, and to convince the Government, county councillors and all who contribute towards these matters, that a course of this character ought to be enshrined in a law and become part of national policy. I think that they have done well, and that they are to be thanked by the community for their persistent efforts over a long period of time. If, zealous and keen as they are, they are somewhat disappointed not to get the whole of their desires at once, they must rejoice that in these difficult times, when there is so much that must be done to save the life of this country, they have got as far as they have in this matter.
  In passing from the stage in which concern with and responsibility for preservation of the countryside was very

  1517
  largely in private hands, to the stage in which it has, to a larger extent, become a matter for elected representatives in county councils and for nominees of Ministers, let us not fail to say a word of thanks to private owners. Contrary to the propaganda of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, many of those private owners have set a good example in this matter by giving property to the National Trust and making access to their land available, so that people in the villages and nearby towns might enjoy it. They have encouraged country sports also, which have contributed very much to the enjoyment of those who actually live in rural communities, and of those who live in towns around them.
  The National Parks Commission is criticised because there is a majority upon it representing the county councils and only a minority representing the national outlook in this matter. I do not myself think that there is all this difference between the national outlook and the outlook of enlightened dwellers in an area like the Lake District. County councillors in the Lake District are not wholly bound up with the immediate interests around them and without any regard whatever for things which are beautiful. They cherish the beauty around them. The very fact that they are made responsible for what some other people call a national heritage, brings out the best in them. It will, in my view, secure a broad, wise and sensible outlook. They have to live there. It is all very well for people to speak, as the hon. Lady has been speaking, about throwing open these areas. Who is going to pay for it? If the employment of men who earn their living on farms or in light industries is going to be interfered with, if we forbid such activities to go on, who will pay their wages?
  Mrs. Castle: I think the hon. Member is misinterpreting what I said. I was not suggesting that anybody should forbid any of the farming or other activities that at present go on in, for example, the Lake District. I merely said that the Hob-house Report suggested that there ought to be an extension of accommodation and of sporting facilities, and so on, and I expressed the view that local committees as proposed by the Minister were not the right bodies to manage those things.
  Sir I. Fraser: I think the hon. Lady rather jeeringly read out an election
  1518
  manifesto of some local candidate in which he said: "If you vote for me, I will bring you local light industries." Did not she do that?
  Mrs. Castle: Oh, yes.
  Sir I. Fraser: Did not she suggest that that was wrong?
  Mrs. Castle: No.
  Sir I. Fraser: Any councillor who does what he can to bring light industries to his people is doing good. Wages must be paid, and there must be a fund out of which to do so, as well as to pay for all the things proposed in the Bill. We should leave the control of these matters in the hands of practical men, such as county councillors. That is very much wiser than to leave it to people who do not see the wood for the trees.
  I think it is good that the majority on the various organisations that are to be set up by the Bill should be county councillors with their feet on the ground. I deny absolutely that they are unaware of beautiful things or are unwilling to cherish or to encourage them. It is good to encourage local responsibility for all local interests. We have too much centralisation and too much tendency to bring everything under the control of Whitehall, where Ministers are worked too hard and cannot be expected to deal with these matters without getting tied up in red tape. For all those reasons I rather like the modest framework and I am sure that we all congratulate the Minister upon it. Certainly up in my part of the country more and more farmers are being elected to the county council. That is a good thing. Some of them may find their way on to these committees.
  When we are talking about a national park, whatever the words may mean, we should not let it be imagined that we can, without great hardship to the individuals who live there and to the nation, allow people to sprawl all over the place without any order or design. If by our speeches or by propaganda about this Bill we encourage the people from the towns to suppose that they can do this, we shall do great harm to farming. It is important that in Committee we should look closely at the Clauses which provide some sort of check against the country districts being overrun.

  1519
  Earlier today I heard an hon. Member ask who would pay for putting the electric wires underground, and the Minister said that no provision was made in the Bill. He is wise. We cannot afford to pay for all these things. It is great exaggeration to say that these overhead electric wires spoil the countryside. I am told that in many beautiful areas as a result of proper siting, the pylons and telegraph poles are not a great eyesore; and the countryside must have electricity. I have done what I could to have electricity brought for the first time to villages in the Lake District. With the help of the local representatives of the friends of the Lake District and the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, we have had the pylons placed where nobody could object to them; and everybody is glad to have the electricity. We need a sense of proportion in this matter. It is very important that people should not go around the towns talking a lot of nonsense which cannot be implemented without great damage to the countryside.
  In regard to access, there is the matter of damage. This is very important. An hon. Member opposite mentioned shooting. Why should not people enjoy shooting? Shooting is more and more becoming a matter of syndicates in which a large number of people are interested; there are very few rich men who can afford these luxuries without spending capital. More and more men from the towns are forming syndicates for shooting. It is important that shooting facilities should be preserved. If we allow townsfolk who do not understand these matters casually to walk through at the wrong time, they may get shot, and at any time they may spoil the shooting, which is of value.
  Is it a crime for a person to use some part of the resources which he may have saved in order to enjoy himself in such a way? Have we reached the stage when that is a crime? A sense of proportion is desirable in all these matters. Fishing is being enjoyed more and more by large numbers of people, and in my part of the country there are arrangements whereby large numbers from the towns can come out for the fishing. If we are not careful we may spoil the shooting and fishing not merely of a few lucky individuals here and there but of
  1520
  very great numbers of people. In Committee we must examine this carefully and see that proper safeguards are provided.
  The law of trespass is always a difficult law, but it will be made much more difficult by this Bill. Henceforth one will not normally be a trespasser, but only if one does certain things. One may be a trespasser if one leaves a gate open. It is obvious that if one is seen by a farmer to leave a gate open, one will not do any damage and will not therefore be a trespasser; but if one is not seen by the farmer to leave the gate open, one cannot be prosecuted anyway. Therefore, that is not much of a safeguard for the poor farmer whose gate is left open and whose valuable cattle may stray. The law of trespass was not much good before but it will be worse now. Also, one must not leave pamphlets about or have bonfires. I should have thought that leaving pamphlets about was an incitement to have bonfires. We are making it even more difficult for anyone to whom real damage is done to bring the matter home by an occasional successful court case.
  I represent a mainly rural area, but I am very interested in the towns around and I hope at the next General Election to represent both the town of Morecambe and the rural area of Lonsdale behind it. In Morecambe the coaching business is very important. Hundreds of thousands of people visit the town each year and want to see the countryside. It is a good thing that they should be able to see the countryside, and they should have the utmost possible access to beautiful places to which they can walk at the end of their coach ride or which they can ride to see; but there must be proper safeguards, in the interests not only of the farmers and the landowners, but in the interests of the people themselves.
  While I welcome the principle of the Bill, I consider that we ought to look very carefully at the safeguards that are provided. I am sure that farmers generally will regard the Bill with suspicion until they see how it works. Subject to our being able to improve the Bill in Committee, I would say to them that nothing will do the farming community more good in the end than that an increasing number of townsfolk should come out and learn how they live and sympathise with their way of life.

  1521
  The farming community has a hard life. It is unthinkable that a farmer should bring his horse into one's back garden in the suburbs, but it is not unthinkable that one should take one's clumsy ignorance into his farmyard and let his beasts stray. Indeed, the people in the towns demand the right to go and harm the countryside because they do not understand it. Great tolerance will be required from the country community in accepting this invasion. I shall try to advise them that if they are patient and if the best is done to safeguard their interests, they may find in the end that it teaches the people of the towns a little more about the countryside which they ought to know—in particular that they rely upon the food grown in the countryside, more so in these days when we have not the resources to buy it abroad.
  Let us hope that with proper tolerance and education, some good may come from this and greater sympathy may be developed between town and country. I am sure that we in the country will do our best to persuade our folk tolerantly to accept the invasion of their privacy. I hope that public representatives in the town will, equally, invite their folk who are visiting the countryside in such increasing numbers to try to understand the countryman's problem and to respect his interests.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: With a great deal of what the hon. Member for Lonsclale (Sir I. Fraser) has said I must sympathise, and I was particularly glad that towards the end of his speech the hon. Member stressed the fact that this Bill will do a good deal to link together the interests and understanding of townsfolk and country folk. Earlier in his speech the hon. Member had suggested that the present situation is one which needs correcting in that regard. I think he used a phrase suggesting that there were things that the townsfolk did not understand in connection with country practices. It is perfectly true, and it is one of the strongest reasons why we should welcome a Bill such as this.
  I want to associate myself with one criticism of the Bill that has been made by a number of speakers, and that is in regard to the powers of the Commission. The ideal situation we cannot have. I
  1522
  take it the ideal situation is that which one gets in countries where there are a few national parks of great extent, and where the problem of management by such small bodies as county councils simply does not arise. In our case that ideal is impossible to reach. We cannot just take a number of areas and say that we shall look upon them as unconnected with the ordinary local pursuits, because these local pursuits and activities and economic interest are, themselves, so important to the life of this country.
  As a result, we have to compromise a good deal, but it seems to me that in the compromise, the Minister has given away too many of the powers that might have belonged to a National Parks Commission. Other speakers have described the power of the Commission as advisory. When I read the Bill I did not try to add up to a total the various powers mentioned here and there throughout the Bill, but the impression I got—and it was strengthened while listening to the speech of the Minister—was that the powers of the Commission were largely those of liaison. The Commission is to a large extent the link between—I almost said the buffer between—the public in general and the authorities managing the national parks. I feel, therefore, that when the Bill is criticised on the score that the Commission has not great enough powers, the criticism is just.
  In a short time there will be a Bill presented to deal with the Scottish aspect of the national parks question. For that reason I do not intend to deal any further just now with those aspects of the Bill which refer only to England and Wales. What I want to do is to turn to the one part of the Bill that refers to the whole of the United Kingdom, Part III, dealing with nature reserves. My hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Philips Price) suggested that some difficulty might arise in the relationship between England and Wales on the one hand and Scotland on the other hand in connection with the nature reserves. I think he is quite right. There is a problem here. A little earlier in the afternoon the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland was in his place on the Front Bench and I rather hoped—I hope still—that we may have a statement from him in the course of the Debate.

  1523
  In the absence of such a statement I do not want to go into detail about the problem, but I suggest that although the problem is there, it will not be a difficult one to solve. The Scottish people are proud, not merely of their scenery, the scenic resources of their countryside, but also of the flora and fauna of their country, and the last thing that they would be at all likely to want would be any kind of exclusive possession of these resources. In fact I think they would feel that they have resources of that sort which ought to be thrown open to as wide a field of popular interest as possible.
  I was glad to note from the speech of the Minister that he contemplates that the extent of the nature reserves in Scotland should be 70,000 square miles, which is roughly the same as the area allotted to England and Wales, with ten times the total area within their boundaries. That, in itself, is an illustration of the wealth of Scotland in this matter. The flora and fauna range from the golden eagle and the Highland wild cat—which is the badge of my own clan—to something in which I am particularly interested, and to which my mind turns whenever nature reserves are mentioned, namely the bird homes and sanctuaries along our coastline. I hope these will be preserved as nature reserves in considerable numbers and in considerable area. A number of the best of these—the Bass Rock in the Firth of Forth, some of the islands in the Orkneys and Shetlands and the Hebrides—would be completely free from the difficulty, which an hon. Member on the other side foresaw, of their becoming sanctuaries for pests which might trouble the neighbouring farmers because these islands are in some cases completely isolated. It is not necessary to erect a fence round them; the sea is around them and the island itself can be made the reserve.
  In this connection I want to make a suggestion, a very tentative suggestion because I have not any technical knowledge, namely, that in the waters around the Scottish coasts there must be subjects of interest to the student of biology as there are on the coasts. It seems possible from the point of view of a complete layman like myself, that within territorial waters there are a certain
  1524
  number of areas around the coast which it might be worth while to schedule as nature reserves, apart altogether from areas which are on the land. I have not the technical knowledge to judge whether that is a feasible proposition or even a sensible one, but it is worth while asking the Government about it.
  In connection with the management of the nature reserves, one hopes the policy to be followed will be one of wide publicity. I hope that the nature reserves will not be reserved simply for students in the professional sense, though obviously the Conservancy should have close liaison with the universities and other scientific institutions. However, there are many individuals, an increasing number I should think, who by their own interests qualify in the same way to share fully the value of the nature reserves. I am thinking, for instance, of a number of writers and journalists, whose interest is largely the writing up of wild life and nature. I are thinking of a great many people who follow such hobbies as the photographing of wild birds and so on. I hope that every effort will be made by the Nature Conservancy to make these nature reserves as valuable to these people, who are what one might call amateur students, as they obviously can be to the professional students.
  I can hardly refrain from expressing a reflection to which the introduction of the Bill gives rise in my mind. The latter passages of the opening speech of the Minister suggested that in the Bill he was seeing something with a very wide range of possibilities and of great long-term value. In this age of very considerable contemplation, active consideration and continual worrying about immediate problems, we are doing here something which, although it will have certain immediate effects, will in the main produce long-term results: the association of our people with beauty, with the earth in an unspoiled way, and with nature at its best. The result of that sort of thing will be a long-term positive value.
  A Bill of this sort represents to a certain extent an expression of sanity and balance when we think of all the extraordinary, immediate worries which this civilisation of ours is at present undergoing. It is our hope that this readiness to build up towards a long-term value

  1525
  will not be forgotten by the Government in other spheres—education, for instance—of broad human policy. We need philosophers as much as we need physicists. We need the spirit of this kind of Bill in a great number of activities of the Government, and I congratulate the Minister on introducing it today.
  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: In common with hon. Members in all parts of the House, I support wholeheartedly the objects of the Bill. I should like to say one or two things in support of the machinery of the Bill. I think I am the first, apart from the Minister himself, to commend its actual machinery. I am not one of those who want to see established a strong central National Parks Commission in London with powers of direction to local bodies. If we look at the way the Bill may work in practice when it becomes an Act, there are very strong arguments for believing that the Minister has taken the right course in this respect.
  I am particularly interested in this matter from the viewpoint of my constituency. If in course of time the National Parks Commission accept the view of the Hobhouse Committee that North Wales should be regarded as a national park, no less than four-fifths of my constituency—the county of Merioneth—will be a national park, in addition to forming about two-thirds of the whole of the national park in North Wales. If we deal with that great proportion—almost the whole—of a county in any way except by a joint board as indicated in the Bill, we shall virtually nullify the planning powers of the local authority, the county council. If the joint body comprising the four counties in North Wales, were subject to direction from a central commission and also the central commission had equal representation with the local authorities on the joint board, we should make quite impossible the work of the local planning committee.
  It is far better for the initiative to come in the first place from the locality itself. We must set a vision before them. Let there be one-fourth representation of the central body on the joint board, and then leave the initiative to the locality. I would deprecate it very strongly if local bodies in charge of the national park in North Wales were subject to overriding
  1526
  positive direction from a Commission established in London. After all, the area in North Wales, and particularly Merioneth, which it is proposed should be a national park, is the area where the Welsh culture and way of life flourish at their very best. Any possibility of constant, positive direction from a strong Commission in London would be fraught with danger for that way of life. It is far better for the national park in the area to be developed by people who know the locality and its needs, who approach the matter with a vision set before them and with advice, not direction, from the Commission.
  Having said that and commended the Bill in that respect, I now come to the criticism. This point of criticism goes right to the root of the Bill. The criticism concerns finance. The local joint board or committee will have to do positive work of a very wide character and range. To mention a few of its activities. it has to provide a great number of facilities, including, for instance, facilities for car parks, bathing, sailing, fishing and camping; it has to remove disfigurements, to restore derelict land and to take all measures to preserve and enhance the beauty of the land. It has a positive duty in the preservation of woodlands. It has to attend to the maintenance of footpaths—not a very easy matter in a sparsely-populated area, but a vital task—and be responsible for the condition of certain roads. In Merioneth, for example, access to the national park will be by some scores, if not hundreds, of miles of third-class and unclassified roads, many of which are in a shocking condition.
  A penny rate in the County of Merioneth produces £560. If that is not the lowest, it must be very near to the lowest figure for any county in the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the County of Merioneth will have to carry out all the work I have mentioned, in its area. It is true that according to the Bill a grant not exceeding 75 per cent. will become available. There is, however, no security that the grant will be as much as 75 per cent. And even if it is 75 per cent., that is not enough; the remaining 25 per cent. may be a substantial addition to local finances, having regard to the large scale of the work which is involved. In this particular instance, I see no reason why there should not be a

  1527
  100 per cent. grant. The normal arguments against a 100 per cent. grant to a local authority are not applicable here, because the money is to be spent for national purposes, for the development, it is true, of the region itself, yet for the benefit of the nation as a whole; and it can only be spent on projects and in a manner approved by the National Parks Commission and the Minister.
  I do not think there will be the real impetus or incentive to carrying out all the work which a national park involves unless the grant is made 100 per cent. There is a parallel for that in the trunk roads the work on which is carried out by a local authority, yet the Ministry of Transport pay the full cost of the local highways staff responsible for trunk roads.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. King): The long-distance footpaths mentioned in the Bill are comparable and 100 per cent. grant is to be paid in respect of those. The hon. Member's observation that 25 per cent. would have to be borne by the local authority is not correct; they would get more.
  Mr. Roberts: So far as I can see, the long-distance footpaths are not very common. The Minister mentioned two, one of which is the Pilgrims' Way. I do not know that there will be any in North Wales. The figure of 75 per cent. is the figure mentioned in the Bill. The Minister said that somehow or other, having regard to the equalisation grant, the total grant would be equal to 90 per cent. He also said that the total cost of any work carried out would have to amount to £150,000 before the lowest rated county—I take it he meant Merionethshire—would have to expend the product of 1d. rate. I do not understand those figures. If one worksthat one out, one gets the result that the Minister would make a 99.7 per cent. grant. There is something wrong with the arithmetic. I would like far more assurance that the grant will amount to 90 per cent. before I believe it. At the moment, I have to take the figure in the Bill and I am very doubtful if the local authority or the local joint board will be able to exploit the possibilities in the Bill to the fullest extent.
  1528
  We shall not get all the enthusiasm that this subject deserves if those who have to work the project in the national parks, feel that interests which are inimical and hostile to national parks are taking precedence over them. I thought the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) was right when he said that the greatest and gravest threats to the national parks may now come from the activities of other Government Departments. In particular, the worst trespasser is the War Office. The North Wales national park is to cover 870 square miles, always assuming that the plans follow the lines recommended by the Hobhouse Report, and of those 870 square miles, 510 square miles are in Merionethshire. The War Office hold 8,400 acres and are proposing to acquire another 8,800 acres, making a total of about 17,500 acres, right in the heart and centre of that national park.
  This will be an area from which the public are to be excluded, according to the Minister of Defence, in reply to a Question in this House last year. At the regional consultation held to discuss this War Office proposal, a gentleman representing the Standing Committee on the National Park said that, if carried out, the proposal would tear an irreparable hole in the national park area. In this area, we were told, there would be three infantry brigades from May until August, weekend camps, artillery training regiments practising twice a week throughout most of the year, and tank exercises. I cannot believe that that is the best way to promote peace and quiet and to give the people of the crowded towns the recreation they deserve when they go to a national park.
  It is interesting to note that the Merionethshire part of the North Wales proposed national park comprises the first experiment adopted by the Government in taking over agricultural land in lieu of Death Duties. Part of the proposed national park is the Glanllyn Estate which measures about 39,000 acres and contains some of the most beautiful part of the area, namely, the upper reaches of the River Mawddach. I was glad that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was on the Front Bench during most of the Debate, because, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was responsible for the acquisition of this estate for the nation. He wrote a very cheering letter to the

  1529
  local people and I think it is worth while quoting from it, because I know he is interested in the project of national parks. He said:
  "We are taking this estate over primarily in order to preserve its great beauties for the people and to prevent it being spoilt. You can be sure, therefore, that we shall not come to any decision about the way in which it should be managed without first giving the tenants full opportunity to put forward their views and to discuss with us how its unique character will best be safeguarded.
  I am confident that I can rely on you … to co-operate with my officers in doing all we can to preserve this singularly beautiful part of your native land."
  The right hon. Gentleman wrote that on 9th July, 1946, and the next thing that happened was that the War Office came along and said they wanted to take this singularly beautiful part for a training area. Unless that proposal is resisted—and no decision has yet been come to—it will make a mockery, not only of the right hon. Gentleman's letter, but of the determination to have a national park in North Wales, or anywhere else for that matter. The Hobhouse Report was very emphatic on this point. Paragraph 151 said:
  "It would be no exaggeration to say that the appropriation of a number of the particular areas now listed for acquisition by the Service Departments would take the heart out of the proposed National Park areas in which they are sited, and in certain cases render our proposals for the designation of individual national parks entirely nugatory. Service Departments occupation and use will also involve other subsidiary objections, such as the disturbance by gunfire of the peace and harmony of far wider areas than those actually appropriated, the disfigurement of the landscape by camps and military buildings, serious detriment to agriculture, interference with wild life, the inevitable defacement of the surface of the land and destruction of its vegetation by tracked vehicles, and the danger and annoyance occasioned on narrow roads by military traffic."
  We know something in Merioneth already of the disturbance by gunfire and explosions. The Report went on to say:
  "For the future we consider that the appropriation of land in national parks for military training should be permitted only on grounds of proved national necessity and after careful consideration of all possible alternative areas."
  In view of this, it is extraordinary that at the regional consultation, when we discussed the project of the War Office, the representative of the War Office said that, although this proposed training ground was in a national park area, no
  1530
  alternative site had been considered at all by the War Office.
  Therefore I implore the Minister, if he wishes to make these national parks a reality, not only in North Wales, but all over the country, to stand up in all cases against the demands of the Service Departments. There will also need to be, as is indicated in the Hobhouse Report, continuous liaison between the Forestry Commission and the National Park Commission, and locally. The Forestry Commission are naturally addicted to the planting of conifers and may sometimes be in conflict with what is necessary for a national park.
  Finally, it is essential that national parks shall not be sterilised into national museums. The rural life, agriculture, light industries and all other activities of the people must go on in these national parks, and even be increased, because there will have to be greater provision for the tourist industry. There is some fear in some of the districts which may become national parks that all further development will be sterilised. On the contrary, if they are properly administered, a new life may well come into these areas, and for the people of this country there will be opening up real opportunities to enjoy the beauties of what is, in very truth, the land of the delectable mountains.
  7.52 p.m.
  Mr. Watkins: I welcome this Bill, and thank the Minister for the splendid way in which he introduced it. If he will accept Amendments in Committee, his status as a Minister will be greatly improved by the time the Bill comes back to this House. I suggest that the Minister might look at a number of proposals which may be made in Committee. There are too many Government Departments who are bypassing this particular Bill at the present time. I wish to declare my interest, because in regard to freedom of access no fewer than 150 parishes in my constituency will be preparing maps, and it will be realised what a great task confronts them.
  Referring to the need for legislation in connection with water gathering grounds, I suggest that regard should be paid to the Clauses applying to the Birmingham Corporation Act in my constituency, the first place where it was

  1531
  provided by statute that people might go on to that land. The people have not let the Birmingham Corporation down. The corporation are given every encouragement. Also in my constituency I have the Brecon Beacons and the Black Mountains, a proposed national park, and three conservation areas, and hon. Members may wonder what there is left of my constituency.
  I suggest that whatever kind of body is to administer the national parks, the Minister must see that real national interests are represented locally. As the Minister of Agriculture is present, I ask him to see that practical farmers act as representatives both from a national and a local point of view, and not the gentlemen whom we usually find on national bodies. Apart from what is proposed, there should be a definite organisation, as opposed to planning, to advise on guides, footpaths and advertising. They may act side by side with the planners, but it is essential to have people with local knowledge to advise on those matters. There should also be at least, a few guiding experts, who would be more valuable to the local authorities than a host of wardens.
  It will be very difficult to legislate with regard to joint planning boards, and I wonder whether it would be a good idea to take that matter out of the Bill altogether and leave it to the Minister and the local planning authority to decide the most suitable organisation and machinery for the district. In my own constituency there is a particular problem in that five county councils are concerned with one proposed national park. That means five planning committees, and the adjoining counties have most mountainous land. Of what use will it be to get adjoining authorities to come to the central place to discuss areas about which nothing can be done except to look at them? Even the county of Glamorgan has only 1,344 acres out of its 327,168 acres which may be suitable for development.
  I am pleased that the Minister acknowledges the problem which arises in that regard, but when he looks at this problem I hope he will bear in mind that 50 per cent. of the land in a county which I represent is within a national park. If a joint board is to
  1532
  operate, I should like to know whether they could operate over the other 50 per cent. and thus avoid two lots of planning officers. If that cannot be done, I wonder whether Clause 84 could apply, and the county council administer the national park. I say that because it is laid down that proposals must be made within a year, and hon. Members will realise the difficulty of having proposals ready within a year. Under the Town and Country Planning Act, it has not been possible to get development schemes in hand because of the difficulty of obtaining staff.
  I join with the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) in what he said in regard to the financial aspect of the Bill. I should like to know how we can get a figure of 90 per cent. as a grant. In my own county it would mean a farthing rate in order to obtain a set of 25-inch maps. What prospect have we of getting the sort of great schemes which are envisaged in national park development? We have had recently great national schemes such as the Fire Service, the National Health Service and education, which the county councils have been asked to administer. I am grateful to the Government for these things, but they all increase the amount of the rates. Some local people regard planning with suspicion and consider it a rather cranky luxury. In the Bill we find that a 100 per cent. grant is given for something of a negative character, whereas for something constructive we may get only a 75 per cent. grant. I hope that such matters as these will be looked into again and that a better explanation will be forthcoming.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Merioneth in what he said about the War Office and other Government Departments. I know that the agricultural interests are in agreement with the principle of national parks, but they quite rightly wish to know what powers Government Departments will have in regard to these national parks. Land may be preserved from development, but bought out for Service requirements. The two ideas conflict. I suggest that the Service Departments ought to be subject to the same limitation as any other development within a national park, however serious the situation may be. I know that in my own County of Brecon, 80,000 acres were required at one time by the

  1533
  War Office. Their requirements have now been reduced to 5,000 acres. I am also glad to notice from a speech which was recently made in this House by the Secretary of State for War that only five per cent. of national park land would be required for Service requirements. That is no consolation to me as I look out from my window, and also when I read page 112 of the Hobhouse Committee's report which describes the three beautiful peaks of the Beacons; and when I find that if I want to take a short cut to the top of one of the Beacons, there is no access to those peaks because Government Departments have taken the best part of the national park. Those are matters about which I am concerned.
  Apart from that aspect, I am certain that the Welsh nation will welcome this Bill. The Welsh Tourist Board, which was recently set up, certainly welcomes this Bill because it will be a great asset not only to that body but to the nation in general. When the North-South Wales road has materialised, that will be another great asset. When there are good civil aviation services with helicopters dropping not on the national park itself but a good distance outside, they will bring a good many visitors to Wales.
  In my own locality in the proposed national park there is a famous, spot called the "Gap." Not long before my entry to Parliament, I paused whilst walking there. On one side was the gloomy and depressed industrial South and on the other God's own country—the countryside. If I am privileged to be there this summer, it is true that a different vision will appear—hope in the South, and greater security in the countryside. This Bill brings all together; the gap closes, man himself tries to overcome the leisure problem, and will have, we hope, an opportunity to commune with Nature. This is so for each area in the country. What an asset to our complex civilisation to see God in His natural glory, for is it not said:
  "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help."
  I commend the Bill to the House, and hope that it will have a unanimous Second Reading.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. Keeling: I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins)
  1534
  has said, but before I refer to his speech I should like to deal with the speech of the Minister in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. I was glad that the Minister of Town and Country Planning paid a tribute to the voluntary organisations which have devoted so much enthusiasm and persuasive energy to the objects of this Bill. The Minister mentioned some of those societies. I thought there was a rather remarkable omission from his list—the National Trust, which for 53 years has been carrying out the purposes of this Bill. I shall have something to say about that in a few minutes' time. The Minister mentioned the Council for the Preservation of Rural England. He might also have mentioned the Council for the Preservation of Rural Wales, the Society for the Promotion of Nature Reserves and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which have all worked very hard in this cause. For 13 years there has been a Standing Committee on National Parks, representing all those societies, which in the words of the Hobhouse Report has sustained and vitalised this movement.
  I say frankly that those societies are, as my right hon. Friend said, very much disappointed with this Bill. When Sir Arthur Hobhouse reported in the middle of 1947 their hopes rose high. Since then the Government mountain has been in labour for a period of 18 months, quite a long period of gestation; but it has produced only a very small mouse. I am astonished at the Minister's claim that in this Bill he has accepted 90 per cent. of the recommendations of the Hob-house Report. I deny that most emphatically, and I shall explan why. I doubt whether it was worth while having a Bill for such shadowy objects as those contained in Parts I and II. There is very little contained in them which could not have been achieved administratively under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, without a Bill.
  A few months ago the Minister himself had doubts about the necessity for a Bill to give effect to his views. It is on record that six months after the publication of the Hobhouse Report he could not say whether a Bill for the planning of national parks was required. As recently as last August he used the expression "if and when legislation came." The statements aroused fears that he did not really mean business; that he had no

  1535
  great faith in a National Parks Commission or any desire to give it any power. When we look at the Bill we find our worst fears realised.
  The Hobhouse Committee recommended that the prime charge of national parks should be given to a specific central authority, a National Parks Commission. The provisions of the Bill are a mere shadow of this recommendation. It is quite true that the purposes stated in Clause 1 are all that can be desired, but the powers actually conferred on the National Parks Commission are exceedingly limited. The Bill states the end but it does not will the means. What are these powers conferred by the Bill? The Minister gave his version and I will give mine, which I think very much agrees with that given by the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. M. MacPherson). The National Parks Commission is to have a general surveillance of the treatment of national parks. It has to keep under consideration facilities for public enjoyment. It has to give information to the public. The Minister seemed to think that that was one of the most important functions it had. It has to advise on this, to be consulted on that and to be notified of the other thing. All these words seem to me to be vague to the verge of nullity.
  Was it worth while to set up a National Parks Commission to exercise such flimsy authority? It looks almost as though the draftsman, of course under instructions, had sat down with his Thesaurus, to put into the Bill all the woolly and inconclusive phrases he could find. The Bill gives the Commission little prestige and less power. It is apparently expected to derive happiness from being allowed to exist. That is all wrong, and very much more is necessary. The powers given to the National Parks Commission ought to be, and I hope will be, largely expanded in Committee. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison) said—I think he was quoting from the Hobhouse Report—the National Parks Commission ought to have the right to frame policy planning and management. It ought to have the right to appoint, and not merely to be consulted about the appointment of, the national members of the park committees. It ought to have the right to distribute any money that is available, subject of course
  1536
  to the approval of the Treasury. It ought to have the right to make general by-laws for the parks, and it ought to have the right of direct access to Government Departments such as Service Departments, or to socialised boards such as the British Electricity Authority. If it is to stand up to those Departments and commissions it ought to have the right to enter by the front door and not by the side door which alone is provided by the Bill. It is entirely wrong of the Minister to say that these are mere academic points.
  The Commission ought to be a responsible body with a will and judgment of its own—not merely an advisory body nor a mere phantom or figurehead. It is obvious that to increase the powers of the Commission will reduce the powers of the Minister. There is no harm in that, and I make that statement without reference to what Government may be in power. There is nothing personal in that remark to the present Minister. Nobody wants it otherwise. I agree with the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) in that, but the influence of the Commission ought to be enhanced and there are two ways in which this could be done. The first is by giving the Commission instead of the Minister the right to appoint the national representatives, as I have already suggested, and the second is to increase the national representation on the local planning authorities, though the national representatives almost without exception ought to be local residents.
  It seems to me quite certain that if the influence of the National Parks Commission is not increased, national interests will suffer. As the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) pointed out, the 75 per cent. who will be county councillors owe a duty to the local voter, and it is hardly open to them, even if they wish, to prefer national to local interests. The Minister thought that a councillor or a county council could be trusted to have regard to the national interest. I have nothing at all to say against county councils or county councillors, but I should like to apply the test of experience to see how conflicts in national park areas are likely to be decided if 75 per cent. of the members are locally appointed. This is my reply to the optimism of the hon. Member for Merioneth.

  1537
  Let us take a few recent cases. In the Hope Valley, where the extension of cement works is going to do great injury to one of the most beautiful of the national park areas, there was no opposition from any local authority. On Dartmoor, the county council came to an agreement which sacrificed completely part of the national park. In the Lake District, one of the principal park areas, a proposal to raise and ruin Ennerdale Water for factory purposes was approved by every local authority concerned. Again the Minister of Supply gave a most solemn promise that a factory erected on the shores of Windermere during the war would be removed at the end of the war, but the Westmorland County Council has pressed and is still pressing for the factory to be retained indefinitely. I suggest that in none of these cases would the park committee, constituted as to 75 per cent. of local representatives, have been an effective guardian of the national interest.
  There is another case at issue which illustrates the paramount importance of strengthening national representation. In North Wales, in one of the most unspoilt national park areas, the British Electricity Authority is contemplating a number of hydro-electric works which will entail numerous power stations, great leats, as I believe they are called, or trenches, piles and heaps of spoil from trenches and tunnels, diversions of the rushing streams which at present are one of the chief attractions; and in the summer, when the national park has the largest number of visitors, the fall in the level of the reservoir will expose stretches of slimy evil-smelling mud and rotting vegetation. These lovely mountains and lakes are chiefly frequented by people from Lancashire, Cheshire, Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Staffordshire, which places will have no representation at all on the park authority. Here, if anywhere, the national representation ought to be more than 25 per cent. This North Wales case also seems to prove conclusively that it is necessary for the National Park Commission to have direct access to the British Electricity Authority. That access is not provided for in the Bill.
  I now come to one of the most serious defects of the Bill, which has already been mentioned by my right hon. Friend, and that is that where the park is partly in one area and partly in another the Bill
  1538
  says that the park need not be planned as a whole. This provision seems to me to be almost incredible, but it is there. One would have thought that it was an absolutely elementary principle that each park ought to be planned and managed by a single committee with a single planning officer, but Clause 7 authorises the control to be split between different planning authorities. It is quite true that the Bill provides for a joint advisory committee, but such a committee has no executive powers and the result would be that the park would be a thing of shreds and patches. "The Times" said:
  "It is difficult to see how a park divided between several authorities can be properly managed without a joint board."
  The Minister said this would be an exceptional case. I hope that in Committee he will accept an Amendment barring it altogether.
  I want to say a few words on finance. As the Minister truly said, the cost of these parks will not be enormous, but in spite of his elaborate explanation that 75 per cent. does not really mean 75 per cent. but a great deal more, I agree very much with the hon. Members for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts), and Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins) that if the park is to be a national park for the benefit of the nation, the nation ought to pay the whole cost. It seems to me absurd that 100 per cent. should be made available in this Bill for long-distance footpaths or for improving the Broads but should not be made available for parks as a whole. On all these grounds I agree with the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) and the hon. Member for Blackburn, that the parks will not be national parks and so far as I can see, with two exceptions, no hon. Member has expressed a contrary view.
  In conclusion, I want to say a few words about the effect of this Bill on the National Trust. The National Trust for 53 years has been doing voluntarily the same kind of thing that the local planning authorities are now to be asked to undertake. The National Trust now owns something like one in every 300 acres in England and Wales. The two purposes which are set out in Clause 1 of the Bill are precisely the aims of the Trust. But the National Trust has pursued and carried out these aims at

  1539
  no cost to the State, apart from the single subscription given by this House, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, to the National Trust Jubilee Fund, two years ago. In managing its 1,000 properties the National Trust has, I think, set a very good example. It seeks to balance the interests of amenity with agriculture, of recreation with food production, and I hope its example will be copied in the national parks.
  I suggest that the National Trust is entitled to ask that the powers given to local planning authorities by the Bill shall not interfere with the beneficent activities of the Trust. I shall give one vivid, but not fantastic, example of what might happen. The Trust happens to own, inalienably, as it owns nearly all its property the summit of Sca Fell, the highest mountain in England. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent the local planning authority from acquiring that summit and erecting on the top a "Tea Kiosk"—with one capital "K"—or a Kozy Kafe—with two capital "K's" and a "z." That has actually happened on the top of Snowdon, and I hope that reasonable protection will be given, by Amendments in Committee, against such a possibility elsewhere. I am very sorry that if any reply is given to these suggestions tomorrow I cannot be here owing to another engagement.
  8.23 p.m.
  Mrs. Ayrton Gould: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) has greeted this Bill with such inspissated gloom. I seem to remember that he has greeted with equal gloom other Bills which have been brought in by the Labour Government to give additional freedom and rights to the people. When those Bills have become Acts of Parliament they have proved highly successful—as I am sure this Bill will do. I warmly welcome the Bill. As the Minister said, it is not perfect, and I agree. I think there are things that need altering later, and I want to make one or two constructive criticisms. What the Bill does, by and large, is to give to the people of Britain their heritage of access to what every Member of the House will agree is the most beautiful countryside in the world. While the Minister was speaking a
  1540
  famous line that expressed that thought kept coming into my head:
  "Oh, to be in England, now that April's there!"
  How many English people abroad have felt the sentiment expressed by those words? When they have come back to England and have wanted to get to the countryside, they have found that they were always being kept out because so much of the countryside was private. I believe that those words will become much more apt now than they have ever been before. I know that April is not here yet, but it will be tomorrow. [An HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, the 1st."] Yes, I thought of that, but, on the other hand, the Debate will not be wound up until long after midday, so that is all right.
  I am one of the humble Londoners who enjoy our beautiful countryside, but I have found many times that when town dwellers have wanted to go to the countryside, not on an organised expedition or necessarily as a rambler, but just to see the beauties of the countryside, they are continually faced with such notices as "Trespassers will be prosecuted," or "Danger, keep out." When the Bill becomes an Act "Trespassers will be prosecuted" will not mean anything, just as it does not mean anything now. Actually, trespassers cannot be prosecuted unless they commit an offence. Nevertheless, these notices are erected to frighten people away from beauty spots which have hitherto been enclosed.
  That brings me to one of the criticisms I wish to make. I know that my right hon. Friend trusts county councils. He thinks that the local planning authorities, composed three quarters of representatives of county councils, the local authorities, will be quite fair in their administration of national parks. I ask myself: what is the personnel of a great many of these county councils? Many of these councils are reactionary. Unfortunately, there are still plenty of reactionary councils today, largely composed of the descendants of men who originally enclosed beauty spots for their own convenience. They know perfectly well that it is not illegal to trespass and that trespassers cannot be prosecuted unless they do damage. Yet they put up notices to keep people out of their woods and off their moors. These are the people who, very often, are in the majority on the county councils which will provide

  1541
  three quarters of the personnel of the local planning authorities. Frankly, I do not trust them. I do not trust these local authorities on two counts—partly because of what I have just said, and partly because I cannot see how they can be expected to divide their loyalties between local and national interests.
  There is a third consideration. I do not always trust their taste. Not very long ago I was in a particularly beautiful park in a town in the South of England, part of which was laid out as a wild garden where I was admiring the anemones, daffodils and other spring flowers growing in the grass. Standing near me were two people who, I happened to know, were councillors. One said to the other, "I do not like this." "No," said the other, "I do not like it at all. It is not municipal." It is true that municipal councillors will not necessarily have any power, but they and county councillors presumably are often made of the same material.
  But the greatest difficulty is that of divided loyalties and interests. It has been laid down, and rightly so, that agricultural life shall go on in the national parks. One of the great problems about which we hear from the Minister of Agriculture is that the workers will not stay in country districts because they cannot get homes or because those which they can get are inadequately served. They are without electricity and water. And that at once brings us up against a divided loyalty in a national park. Is the local planning authority to decide to put up houses with electric plant, with grids and water power, none of which, as far as I know, can be laid on in any form that is beautiful'? Are they to do that in order to supply homes for agricultural workers who are so badly needed on the land to grow our food, or are they to look ahead at the natural beauty of the national parks and say that nothing shall be allowed which will be ugly? I suggest that we shall have divided loyalties even supposing that every one of the personnel of the county councils involved is only interested in the very best way from a public spirited point of view.
  How are they to decide which is best for the country—the local pull of bringing more agricultural workers on to the land by providing more amenities for the
  1542
  people, or the beauty of the park that is to be designated by them? I appreciate that it is possible for there to be reference to the Commission and even to the Minister. I think that the local planning authorities will have much too difficult a time deciding what really is in the national interest if 50 per cent. or even 75 per cent. of the personnel on these authorities are to be local councillors.
  Another great difficulty concerns the question of looking upon the whole country from the point of view of the planning of its beauty. The local planning authorities are to decide the designation of access areas. As a matter of fact, from the point of view of the ramblers and hikers, we do not want the local authorities to decide these things. It needs to be done on a much wider and bigger scale with the whole country in view. It seems to me that the right way to do it would be, as we have done under other Acts, to have national planning by a central planning authority, with regional organisations and regional administration radiating from it.
  I should like to suggest to the Minister that, if this Bill is to carry out all the ideals which he has at heart, it will be essential to improve a good deal of the machinery. As he himself said, the Bill is chiefly machinery and I hope that in Committee this machinery will be very carefully scrutinised to make quite sure that we are not going to have people with divided loyalties doing the planning, and that we shall not have people with special interests, as we have seen happen in other cases, putting up reasons which are not the true reasons in order to get the wrong thing done, and getting the wrong thing done as a result. I trust the whole plan will be carried out on a much wider scale, so that we can have wise planning on a basis that will really enrich the people with access to the most beautiful part of the countryside everywhere possible.
  8.37 p.m.
  Mr. Lipson: As I shall have occasion in the course of my speech to differ from some of the views expressed by the hon. Lady the Member for North Hendon (Mrs. Ayrton Gould), may I begin with something on which I am in entire agreement with her, and that is in welcoming this Bill. In spite of all that has been said or that could be said against it—and quite a lot has been and

  1543
  could be said—it does constitute a very important advance. For that I am grateful to the Government in general and the Minister in particular.
  It is a Bill for which many of us have waited for a very long time. The beauty spots of our country represent a national heritage, and we, as the heirs for our generation, have a responsibility towards them, a responsibility, in particular, to see that that heritage is preserved and enjoyed by as many people as possible. This Bill comes somewhat late, because already, as we all recognise, a great deal of harm has been done in many of our beauty spots, because the powers which this Bill provides and the machinery which it sets up did not exist. But if it has come late, it has not come too late. We have still a great deal of beauty to preserve, and the purpose of the Bill is to do that.
  What we have to ask ourselves is to what extent this Bill will fulfil the purpose which the Minister had in mind in introducing it and which this House will have in supporting it. I believe that the Bill can fulfil its purpose, not necessarily in its present form, but when it has been amended, and, I hope the Minister will agree, improved. I should like to express the hope that during the Committee stage the Minister will keep an open mind to suggestions for improving the Bill. I think he will find it easier to do so, because, in spite of an occasional incursion today into party politics on one side or the other, for the most part there are no party issues which divide supporters and critics of the Bill. In fact, in consideration of the Bill, it seems to me that all hon. Members can enjoy the great privilege of being independent in their outlook, and really viewing this matter from the point of view of friends of our national parks who want to see as wise and as constructive and purposeful a Measure as possible.
  Obviously, of course, the National Parks Commission must hold a key position under this Bill. I share the concern which has been expressed by a number of hon. Members as to whether the powers afforded the Commission under the Bill are sufficient for the purpose. The Commission must not only have prestige and influence; it must also be effective for its purpose. Although I
  1544
  agree that a great deal of importance must be attached to the personnel of the Commission, no matter how able and qualified its members may be, unless they have an instrument which is effective and which will enable them to see their will carried out, they will obviously not be able to do what they wish to do, and the Minister will not be able to get all the advantage out of their services which he would otherwise get.
  What is worse, I feel that it might well prove to have a discouraging effect because there is no doubt that those appointed to the Commission will be enthusiasts of their cause. I hope they will be able to have powers which will enable them to achieve their purpose. But that cannot be so long as so many of the powers which they possess are purely advisory. The Minister referred to their relationship with Government Departments, and, as I understood him, he said that they would be consulted by Government Departments. I hope he will agree that a more satisfactory thing would be for them to have the right of access, for them to take the initiative themselves, so as to be able to put their points of view to the Ministers when there are matters at issue between them.
  I also hope, among other things, that it will be left to the Commission to disperse among the various planning committees the money available for the purpose. I agree, of course, that the Minister must have the determining voice in making the recommendation as to how much money should be spent. But when a particular sum has been agreed upon, it would make a tremendous difference to the powers of the Commission—because, after all, the power of the purse is the most effective means of getting one's way—if the actual distribution of the money could be left to them. These and some of the other proposals which have been put forward would strengthen the Commission without the Minister in any way parting with anything which it is necessary for him to retain in his own hands.
  A good deal of controversy has been aroused about the constitution of the local planning authorities, and here I want to join issue with the hon. Member for North Hendon. I was sorry that she referred to county councils as reactionary bodies. It must have made Members of

  1545
  the Government feel very uncomfortable, because the whole policy of this Government has been to give more and more powers to county councils. I was under the impression that this was a progressive Government, and I really cannot understand how a progressive Government could hand over to reactionary local authorities the administration of the Measures passed by this House.
  But, in point of fact, in my view, county councils are not reactionary bodies. There are objections to giving them some of the powers possessed by the smaller local authorities, but not on the ground that they are reactionary bodies. I have been a member of a county council for 24 years and in spite of the elections I am still a member, and I should therefore be the last to say of my own county council or of others that they are reactionary bodies. I think it is a tribute to local government in this country and to the spirit in which our people administer local government that a local authority which is opposed to the Government in power and which hates the Measures it is asked to administer will almost invariably administer those Measures with absolute fairness and judgment. The fact that a local authority does not approve of Measures which have been passed by Parliament does not, I am sure, make any difference to the way in which they administer them.
  I do not believe in all this talk about the difference between national and local interests, so far as this issue is concerned. I think it would be a great mistake if these local planning authorities were to start their career with the idea that one section of the members had been appointed to look after the others because they could not be trusted to do their job properly. Nor do I believe in all this talk about divided loyalties. When these planning authorities are set up there will be only one loyalty to which the overwhelming majority of the members—and we may ignore the small fraction where this does not apply—will be attached, and that is loyalty to the job for which they have been appointed.
  I welcome the fact that the majority of the members wil be representatives of the local authorities and of the areas concerned because, after all, the parks are in their areas and they have a special interest in them. Although we hope that
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  people will visit the parks from other parts of the country and perhaps from other countries, these people live there and will be there much more frequently and, unless the national representatives are local people, they will know the areas and the people who live in them very much better than the representatives from outside.
  I want to add that in my opinion it will be very important to see that the right persons are chosen as chairmen of these local planning authorities. The job of the chairman will be to weld the members into a team and I think, given the right chairman, that will easily be accomplished. I also hope that these local planning authorities will be given some kind of guidance from the National Parks Commission. Like other hon. Members, I do not like the idea of administration which is too centralised, but there is a difference between that, on the one hand, and local authorities, on the other hand, being given proper guidance in the duties and functions which they have to perform.
  Although I welcome the general principle that the local representatives should be in the majority, I hope the Minister will have another look at the proportion he has chosen. Only a quarter are to be national representatives and three-quarters are to be local representatives. I think a proportion of one-third national representatives would be better. I believe the Hobhouse Report recommended that 50 per cent. should be national representatives.
  Mr. Silkin: The Hobhouse Report recommends a co-option to the extent of 100 per cent., plus an independent chairman.
  Mr. Lipson: Yes, but I hope that the Minister does not attach too much importance to a quarter. I think a third of the membership appointed as national representatives would probably be better than a quarter.
  As to the grant, the Bill says it will be 75 per cent., and the Minister in his speech said that it would be brought up to 90 per cent. under the most recent finance provisions affecting local government. Between the Minister's figure of 90 per cent. and 75 per cent. there is a difference of 15 per cent. I hope that the planning authorities will get it direct. It will not make any difference to the

  1547
  Treasury under what form it gives that extra assistance, whether directly under this Bill or through other arrangements. Personally, I hope that the grant will be a 100 per cent. grant. The Minister said that only 10 per cent. of the cost would fall upon the local rates. He will remember the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, that were asked to produce a much smaller percentage of good men, in relation to their population, than 10 per cent., but they could not do so, with the result that they were destroyed.
  Mr. Molson: Ten per cent. of the local authorities?
  Mr. Lipson: Ten per cent. of the citizens. I feel that there will be a great deal of difficulty about finding that 10 per cent. from the rates. I think the Minister has under-estimated the amount of that 10 per cent. from the rates. I think he has under-estimated the expenditure which is likely to be incurred. The administration of every Act of Parliament in practice costs far more than it was originally anticipated to cost, and the expenditure tends to grow. I am sure the Minister will recognise this fact. He told us that the burden would not be felt so heavily because so much of the expenditure will be in the form of capital expenditure and be spread over a good many years. Nevertheless, it still has to be paid. There is a certain amount of expenditure he did not envisage. Reference has already been made, for instance, to the question whether we shall have overhead or underground wires for electricity supplies. I hope that in the national parks those wires will be carried under ground. I hope it will be possible for the difference between the cost of carrying the wires overhead and the cost of carrying them underground will be borne as part of the expenses of the Commission.
  I think there is a danger that the work of the planning authorities will be retarded because of this 10 per cent. The argument will be, "You call these parks national parks, and you say you want them not to be local parks, but, on the other hand, you expect the local rates to contribute to the expenditure on them." I hope, therefore, that the Minister will go the whole hog in the matter and make the grant 100 per cent. of the
  1548
  cost, for I believe that the results will be well worth while. I welcome this Bill. I hope it will have a speedy passage, and that it will be able to achieve the purposes we all have in mind.
  8.54 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Thomas Fraser): I hope the House will pardon my intervening for a few minutes to say a word or two about that part of the Bill dealing with nature conservation. One or two questions have been asked in the Debate which make it desirable, I think, that I should say a word or two on the subject tonight. I do not think I need say anything about Scotland's non-participation in the other parts of this Bill. Hon. Members appreciate, I think, that the problem of national parks in Scotland is very different from the problem in England and Wales. In those circumstances it would be inappropriate for us to deal with the problem in Scotland in the same Bill as that in which the Minister of Town and Country Planning deals with the problem in England and Wales. I do not think there is the same urgency about this matter in Scotland as there probably is in England and Wales.
  Let me say a few words about that part of the Bill which deals with nature conservation. It is appreciated, I think, that the Lord President is the Minister who will be responsible for this part of the Bill when it becomes an Act. The Lord President will be answerable to Parliament. He is the Minister who will lay the reports before Parliament. I think it is probably important that I should endeavour to allay any misunderstandings—and I believe there are some—that in this part of the Bill we are giving powers to the Nature Conservancy to deal with purely academic matters and to enable them to conduct research which may have no practical application.
  The position is quite different. Indeed, the Nature Conservancy will do work of fundamental value in nature conservation which will be of great value to our food supply, as well as other scientific research affecting agriculture, veterinary science, etc., and one need not stress at the present time the desirability of conducting any research that is within our power that will result in our food supply being increased. In this part of

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  the Bill we provide that problems that are common to the whole of the country will be dealt with by the Nature Conservancy.
  Hon. Members have asked in the course of the Debate what will be the relationship between the Scottish Committee provided for in the Bill and the Nature Conservancy. I can say very little more than that the relationship of the Scottish Committee to the Nature Conservancy will not be very dissimilar from the relationship between the Scottish Forestry Committee and the Forestry Commission. The Scottish Committee gives to Scotland the autonomy which I believe is desirable in this field. In Scotland we are fortunate indeed in having the Committee which was announced by the Lord President a few weeks ago. We are fortunate in having Dr. John Berry, the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board biologist, as the director for Scotland.
  In Scotland we have much research already proceeding on nature conservation which will be carried on in close co-operation with this committee. I am thinking at the moment of the famous Rowett Institute at Aberdeen, with which Lord Boyd Orr was connected for so many years, an institute which carries on most valuable research into animal nutrition, and another research institute in Aberdeen, the Macaulay Soil Research Institute. That organisation has conducted most valuable research into soil erosion and exhaustion—matters of considerable importance at this time; but perhaps I ought not to say anything about another Bill, which we shall be discussing in this House next week. It is obviously highly desirable to take whatever steps we can in using our food production potential to the utmost.
  The Scottish Committee will feel, rightly, that it has a valuable job to do. It is a job in some respects peculiar to Scotland, which has geological and physiographical features of unusual interest; its wild life is particularly rich and varied, and the provisions this part of the Bill will facilitate proper scientific care and management of these reserves. The management of land as a nature reserve will not, in general, involve substantial interference with the use or the condition of the land, most of which will be undeveloped land in remote areas of small if any, agricultural value. I must
  1550
  again stress that, as a result of the work that will be done in those areas, their food production potential will be exploited to the full—a thing which cannot be over-stressed at this moment. I think I need say no more at the moment, except to conclude by saying that the Government look for much from this part of the Bill, and I am sure that neither they nor the country will be disappointed.
  9.3 p.m.
  Colonel Clarke: I do not think it would be right for me, as an English Member, to follow the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland further than to say that I understand the reserves in Scotland will perhaps be treated in a more serious way than is the intention in England, in the sense that they will be devoted more to research and scientific study.
  This is a non-controversial Bill which, in principle, I heartily welcome, although, as in all good things, there is still room for improvement, and I hope that during its passage we shall make some Amendments to improve it considerably. The objective of the Hobhouse Report in recommending a Bill of this kind was, I think, increased contact for the townsmen with nature and the countryside; and earlier the Minister added a further objective, which was the preservation and enhancing of the beauty of that countryside. With those two objects I am deeply in sympathy, because I am by nature and inclination a countryman. I believe that, had I been able to do so, I should have spent my working hours under the open sky; but although, instead, I have had to spend much of my time in the towns, the result has been that I have an appreciation of the points of view of both town and country.
  It is a tragedy that, though four-fifths of our English population live in towns, we have never learned to live in towns as have our continental neighbours. They have learnt the art of living in towns in a way we English have never learnt. It may be that nearly all our townspeople are only two or three generations removed from the country and have not yet got the tradition as have continental nations. But it is certain that a great many of our townspeople have definitely lost touch with their country cousins. The re-approach must be in the right way. The

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  Bill ought not to be looked upon as one which is restoring rights or, as some hon. Members have said, as one returning an ancient heritage taken from the townspeople. In many cases they or their ancestors voluntarily surrendered that country heritage. They chose the way of the town because it gave a higher stanward of life or better wages. It would be better if when returning to the countryside they came as sons and daughters returning to a mother's home—Mother Nature in this case—rather than as an elder brother returning to take over a heritage which in his absence has been looked after by his younger brother, the country man.
  The land in the national parks is, after all, not virgin territory. Except for the highest hill tops, there is hardly an acre or a rod of land in Great Britain which is not man-made and does not show the result of the toil and often the loving care of those who live there now and of generations of their ancestor The people who live there now are the natural guardians, and those who come from the towns must respect their interests and feelings and sometimes even their prejudices. Probably the town dweller is much quicker and cleverer, but he must not try to recast and reform the traditional texture of country life. If he does that, the contact will be worsened instead of improved, and we should all much deplore that. The interests of forestry and agriculture must also be preserved. They are vital factors in our economic life. I should point out that what to the visitor from the town is perhaps beauty and amenity is often the bread and butter of the man who lives in the country.
  To turn from the general to the particular, there has been much controversy as to the composition of the park committees. I support the view the Minister has put forward in the Bill that three-quarters of those on the park committees should be drawn from local authorities. I must admit that I am a county councillor. The hon. Lady the Member for North Hendon (Mrs. Ayrton Gould) has left the Chamber and I say that with less shyness than I should have done if she had been present, after hearing how little she trusts us. If we want smooth working and less chance of friction between local inhabitants and visitors, the
  1552
  committees should be drawn as much as possible from local sources. I therefore support the Minister in his choice.
  I do not believe that the Hobhouse scheme would have been any better able to solve controversies. After all, while the individual has the right of appeal to the Minister, it is the Minister who must settle all real controversy. I disagree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) that experience showed that members of county councils were not suitable people to look after the double loyalty to local inhabitants and to the nation. The record of my own county, East Sussex, shows that to be an absolutely wrong idea. Just after 1932, using the rather primitive tools of the 1932 Act, they preserved some 27,000 acres of the South Downs and they paid over £76,000 to do it. Since then, with the greater powers of the 1947 Act, they have increased that area. That is the proof of what can be done.
  Then it has been suggested that the powers of the Commission are not strong enough and that it is too advisory in nature. That I will not go into, but knowing, as we do, that the real enemies of amenity and open spaces are Government Departments and statutory authorities, I feel that if it could be strengthened to meet and do battle with these two powerful enemies, it would be a good thing. Over the last two years, as a Conservator of Ashdown Forest, I and others have been waging a cold war with the War Office, which the Minister knows well, and I feel that amenity wants all the help it can get in such a war.
  As regards the local authorities, I do not think the Commission require any extra powers. The balance should be well held by the provisions in this Bill, and it is vital that those park committees are masters of their own house. In Clause 5 (4), however, there is a thing I do not like very much. That subsection reads:
  "In the exercise at any time of their functions as respects any National Park the Commission and local authorities shall have due regard to the need for securing that agriculture and forestry, as then established in the Park, shall be efficiently maintained."
  Does that mean that there is to be no expansion, that there is to be no improvement? It is almost impossible for any

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  living thing to stand still. Unless agriculture and forestry go forward, they are bound to go back—one cannot keep them stationery. Actually on the South Downs at the moment, in spite of war damage, there is probably more intensive cultivation now than there has been for generations.
  I suggest that in Clause 6, before making an order to designate an area as a park the Commission, as well as consulting joint planning boards, local authorities, and the other persons, shall also consult the county agricultural executive committees. I believe it would be only right in the national interest that they should also consult the Forestry Commission, and to their advantage if they also got into touch with the British Arboricultural Society, which might give them more help from the point of view of amenity planting than would the Forestry Commission.
  On Part III one or two questions present themselves. I see that by-laws can be passed prohibiting and restricting the killing and molesting of living creatures of any description, and that shooting of birds in areas surrounding a reserve may also be stopped. I suggest that care must be exercised there because, while naturally we want to keep in the nature reserves some birds that can do damage, such as sparrow hawks, when they have exhausted the food supply in the reserve, they will go outside and do damage. It is not only to game that they do damage but also to poultry, so a safeguard is required there.
  For Part IV I have nothing but the most hearty welcome, particularly as a horseman, for the provision of more bridle paths. Arguments have been put forward for better machinery for the closing and diversion, where necessary, of paths, and I am glad that the Minister himself has made this suggestion. If in future our paths are to be more for amenity than for the purpose of getting from one point to another as quickly as possible, it will not really matter whether one has to walk round the headland of a field because there will be the advantage in doing so that one will get more air and exercise that way than by walking across the middle. It may be necessary too, particularly where, as is done in modern farming, large areas of arable land are from time to time put down to
  1554
  grass, which requires fencing, to allow extra gates to be put across footpaths, which at present, I believe, is not legal. Part V, which deals with access to open country, is really a revised version of the Access to Mountains Act, 1939, which is repealed by Clause 67 and which was largely abortive. While I welcome the principle of Part V, one or two points require to be looked at.
  In the Second Schedule, which is similar to provisions contained in the 1939 Act, paragraph (f) contains something which is rather puzzling. It prohibits the carrying on of field sports by persons having access to open country by virtue of Part V. What I want to be satisfied about is that this is not intended to interfere with local hunts or the exercise by local people of their sporting rights—provided, of course, that they have not surrendered them. I believe this really only concerns those enjoying access to the countryside under the provisions of the Bill. I hope that my fears are unfounded. Nevertheless, questions have been asked by various people about the exact meaning of this part of the Schedule.
  I hope that in these national parks not only will there be, as the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has said, greater opportunity for many people to fish, but that people will be able to take part also in other field sports, such as, for instance, hunting and possibly shooting. Another matter in Part V to which I want to refer is compensation for possible damage. Very likely it will be necessary for lessors of grouse moors to claim compensation, because they will receive less rent for their moors if there is general access to them. This is a matter affecting not only private people, but many local authorities, who own wide areas of moor which they keep for catchment purposes.
  A number of other points which arise can be dealt with in Committee. I will, however, mention one of these now. Suppose that a member of the public, who has full right to be in the area under the access provisions, receives an injury from, say, the ricochet of a pellet or pellets from a rock fired by a member of an authorised shooting party. In the old days if such a person was a trespasser, he had no right at all to claim damage. What will be his position under the Bill? Also, as far as agriculture is concerned, I am not satisfied that the provisions for

  1555
  compensation are adequate. It would be a good thing to have some sort of central fund from which farmers could be compensated. Suppose, for example, that a herd of valuable attested stock strays because gates are left open. It is highly probable that the man who left the gate open is never found, and therefore money cannot be obtained from him; but that should not prevent compensation being given to the farmer. Some central fund would enable that to be done. In addition, local planning authorities at their own expense might be allowed to carry out repairs and renewals to property damaged through access. That might be very helpful to farmers.
  I wish to commend Clause 74. The provision of wardens will provide the solution to many problems which will arise. We instituted something of the sort on Ashdown Forest before the war and it was a great success.
  May I end on a personal note? My favourite recreations are field sports, although I have a considerable interest in natural history also. I was educated as a biologist and at one time thought of becoming a professional naturalist. I was, therefore, more than delighted to see in the various Reports on which the Bill is founded many sympathetic references to field sports. There is no need to enumerate them, but I must say the references to hunting on pages 85, 90 and 104 of the Hobhouse Report particularly appealed to me. I do, however, want to make this final point. While it is true that field sports may in the past have been the cause of a reduction, or even extinction, of some species of animals and birds, I believe they have been the means of preserving many more than they have reduced in numbers. I believe the maintenance of our field sports is intimately bound up with the conservation of our fauna, and I therefore hope that those who administer the Bill when it becomes an Act will pay particular attention to paragraph 116 of the Huxley Report, which I think is a very wise paragraph and bears very closely on this subject.
  9.22 p.m.
  Mr. H. D. Hughes: I was very interested in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) because in preparing for this Debate I
  1556
  looked up the Second Reading Debate in 1938 on the Access to Mountains Bill and discovered that on that occasion the hon. and gallant Member seconded the Amendment moved from the then Government side of the House, that the Bill be read "upon this day six months."
  Colonel Clarke: It is always flattering to know that people have read one's speeches particularly of 10 years ago. Possibly the hon. Member was going to add what I am going to say now. If he had read the speech all through he would have found that I said:
  "Take national parks, for instance. I think they are in many ways the best solution of the problem."
  and a little further on I said:
  "I believe that if this Bill is passed the getting of these great national parks will be much prejudiced."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd December, 1938; Vol. 342, c. 773.]
  Mr. Hughes: I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member on the accuracy of his quotation. However, I should like to quote two other extracts from the speech he made on that occasion in which he described the Access to Mountains Bill as "a direct attack on the rights of property" and went on to say that one of the most unfortunate effects would be that, whereas the law at that stage was that if a sportsman killed a hiker, the hiker would be liable, if the Bill was passed, the man who fired the rifle would be liable. That was one of his reasons for moving what was in effect the rejection of the 1939 Bill. However, the hon. and gallant Member said during his speech that nothing can stand still. I shall leave it to the judgment of hon. Members as to how far he exemplifies his own aphorism.
  This Bill, as many hon. Members have said, is a very important step forward in the long struggle of the common people of this country to establish their right to the freedom of their own land. It is one of the Measures which this Government is taking to set the people free. This struggle has passed through many phases in its time, some of them bitter phases. There was the epoch of the Game laws and the Enclosure Acts. G. K. Chesterton once wrote that
  "The village green that had got mislaid
  Turned up in the squire's back yard."
  Throughout English history the law, in this struggle for access, has been on the side of the landlord, whereas public

  1557
  opinion and practice has been increasingly on the side of the ordinary citizen. If I may make use of one more quotation from a popular ballad:
  "They send to gaol the man or woman
  Who takes the goose from off the common.
  But let the larger felon loose
  Who steals the common from the goose."
  However, for generations patriotic Englishmen have struggled for access to their own country and, as recent events in Norfolk have shown, they are still doing that today.
  Parliament has been concerned with the right of access since as far back as the year 1888, when Sir James Bryce, or Mr. Bryce as he then was, brought in the important Bill referred to by my right hon. Friend. I shall have something to say later about the contents of that Bill, because I think they still have some relevance today. On the present Bill there are four main points which arise. The first one, which has been much discussed in this Debate, is the actual status of the Commission and the balance of local and national interests on the local authorities. The right hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) put the point exceedingly well, that it is quite clear that in this balance the Minister has left most power in the hands of local authorities.
  It it not the case that those of us who express reservations on this point do so because we regard county councils as reactionary. There has been a considerable divergence of opinion within the County Councils Association itself on the right machinery to get this balance adjusted. The special sub-committee which the County Councils Association set up to consider this matter, in January of last year
  "reiterated and emphasised the Association's previous opinion that national parks should be centrally administered and centrally financed and responsible to Parliament."
  The Committee went on to say:
  "We concur in the Hobhouse recommendation for local parks committees, provided there is full consultation with adjoining planning authorities and sufficient county council representation for interested county districts."
  That was the view of the official subcommittee of the County Councils Association as recently as January of last year. It is true that when the matter came to the full committee that decision was reversed. I am quoting it tonight
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  only to show that there are very genuine reasons, which do not come from any prejudiced opposition to local authority control, for saying that the machinery as it has emerged in this Bill comes down far too heavily on the side of county council control.
  The main point with which hon. Members have been concerned in discussing the Commission and the local committees is that there is a feeling on both sides of the House that amenity interests, if I may use that phrase, have not had a sufficiently powerful voice at court when national or local interests have been competing with them, and hon. Members on both sides of the House are anxious if possible to strengthen their position. Therefore, we have had today various suggestions, with which I agree, that the Commission should be strengthened. I would add the qualification that even if the Commission had the full powers recommended by the Hobhouse Committee, it would not be strengthened sufficiently to enable it to fight for itself against, let us say, the Board of Trade, the Service Departments or whatever it may be.
  No commission of this kind, whatever powers it had, would carry equivalent weight with other Government Departments. It is most important that the Commission with increased powers should also have the Minister responsible fighting for it in discussions with his opposite numbers. The difficulty is that the Minister of Town and Country Planning fulfils a kind of dual role. He is the only Minister who is there to safeguard amenity interests. At the same time, he is in the chair in inter-departmental discussions and he must try to maintain a fairly balanced position. That is an extremely difficult problem.
  I am inclined to think that the solution lies along the lines mentioned by the senior Burgess for Oxford University when he stressed the importance of a permanent Cabinet Committee where it would he possible to have the Minister of Town and Country Planning fighting for the Commission and for the amenity interests on something like equal terms against the various other Government Departments. I part company from the senior Burgess when he seems to think that public enterprise or public industries are the worst niggers in the woodpile. I would remind him that, for example,

  1559
  in the Hope Valley case we have a cement factory which is a private concern. It carried the day because it had behind it the weight of the Government Department responsible for increasing the production of cement. The issue is one between amenity interest and economic interest, and the other Government Departments are naturally bound to support their particular economic interests whether a public corporation or a private factory is concerned.
  Sir A. Salter: I was not in the least arguing that nationalised industries are more likely to have schemes endangering natural beauties than would the same industries if not nationalised. All I said was that when it came to the judicial consideration—the balancing of the amenity interest against the other—the Government were in a much better position to hold the balance fairly if the matter were judged without one of their own Government Departments being a defendant.
  Mr. Hughes: We agree that the real solution of this problem will only come when we have Ministers and Government Departments concerned to see that, as far as possible, amenity interests, especially in the national parks and the conservancy areas, carry the maximum amount of weight which can be given to them in the light of the economic situation.
  I agree with those who have said that in Committee we must try to strengthen the Commission in its position vis-à-vis the Minister in its relation with other Government Departments and with the local committees. I should like to see it perhaps given greater control over the nomination of the national members on the local committees. I should like to see the local committees having to report annually to the National Commission. Also I should like the members of the Commission to be given a slightly more independent status by provision in the Bill for regulations laying down their conditions of appointment, as is the case in the Electricity Act for the Electricity Authority.
  I think it should be specifically stated in the Bill that the National Parks Commission has power to lay down common planning standards for all national parks.
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  It may be that the power is there, but it is not specifically stated, and I think it would be helpful if it was. The Commission also is given no direct powers at present in regard to access outside national parks and conservation areas, and I should like to see it given a watching brief on the whole problem of access even in areas which are not to be designated under the Bill.
  May I now turn to the local committees which, in effect, are to be the executive bodies under the Bill? I agree that it is necessary to strike a balance between national and local interests, but I think we deceive ourselves if we ignore the fact that there is a genuine and honest conflict of interest between elected representatives of the local ratepayers and those who come from outside urban areas and who are anxious to develop the amenity side of national parks. As a representative of an urban constituency, I want to see representatives of the adjacent urban areas nominated to the local committees to represent the large numbers of people who will be going to the countryside from the towns.
  What worries me particularly about the local planning machinery is the escape provision, which is found in Clause 7 (2), whereby there may not even be a joint planning board. I do not think that a joint planning board is a very good type of authority. The more indirect the system of local government, the more difficult it is to find people to sit upon these bodies, but a joint board is at least something. There are powers whereby one may fall back to a joint advisory committee, which is without any executive powers of its own or any planning officer. The Minister said that he intended to exercise this power in at least two of the parks suggested in the Hobhouse Report, namely, the Brecon Beacons and the South Downs, but if we look at the 12 parks listed in the Hob-house Report, we find that the case for only having an advisory committee in these two cases applies almost equally strongly to two other cases, namely, the Broads and Exmoor, where, again, one county authority dominates the total area.
  I should like to see this proviso for a joint advisory committee removed from the Bill. We are to have two or more county councils setting up a joint advisory committee, and the dominant one will be more or less interested, while the one with

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  the small stretch of land to be represented is not going to be very interested at all, but, under the Bill, will still have to carry out all the executive functions which spring from the joint advisory committee, for a small stretch of its territory far from county hall. I cannot see that being an effective Measure for joint planning at all, and I hope we shall get clown to planning representation of various county councils on joint boards in proportion to the size of the territories involved in the national park in each case.
  Major Tufton Beamish: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? He has referred to the South Downs; there are three county councils and two county boroughs interested in the South Downs, which reinforces the hon. Gentleman's argument in that particular case.
  Mr. Hughes: Certainly. I should like to see a joint planning board in which, obviously, Sussex would have the great majority of members, but which would also contain one member each from Hampshire, Eastbourne and Brighton. Even worse than that is the position of the national parks which fall only within the area of one county authority. It is in that connection that the Bill refers, not to a planning committee, but to a subcommittee of a planning committee. What can be national about a sub-committee of a planning committee being given the responsibility of administration with a few extra members tacked on from outside? The absolute minimum should be a special planning committee of the county council to exercise these particular powers.
  I should like to underline something that was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) about the importance of the positive management functions under Clause 12. We want this to be an imaginative Measure which will bring real results in improving amenity conditions, accommodation and facilities for country holidays, properly conducted, for the people of our towns. We shall only get that if these positive management functions, instead of being purely permissive as they are in the Bill, become compulsory, and if Clause 14, which prevents the local planning committee from exercising these functions itself if there is any other body which might conceivably fulfil them, is dropped from the Bill.
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  In spite of what the Minister said in introducing this Measure, I am not clear that it is possible for local authorities within the terms of the Bill to give financial aid to voluntary bodies like the Youth Hostels Association or the Workers' Travel Association, and so on, to carry on, to carry out these positive management functions for them. They have done magnificent work, and I want to see them helped by the local planning authority. I hope we shall be quite sure that the necessary powers are there. I am not clear that Clause 12 is adequate to cover the provision of park centres which were recommended in the Hob-house Report as centres of the whole life and being of the national parks. There is plenty of provision for aquatic sports in the Bill, but curiously enough there seems to be less provision for the mere land animal. Yachting and boating can be provided for, but there seems to be nothing in the Bill which makes it possible to provide for riding and the acquisition of sporting rights, for example, a subject which has been referred to by some hon. Members.
  We want to see these facilities provided on a much wider scale than ever before, and at rates which the ordinary people can afford to pay. I hope those powers will be strengthened. We want to see, as has been done in New Zealand, in the United States of America, and elsewhere, types of accommodation like cabin camps and tourist cabins, as well as camp sites, so that the whole range of inclinations and purses of the visitors will be provided for. I should like to see properly planned holiday villages rather than holiday camps, such as Butlins, which were mentioned earlier in the discussion today, with tasteful chalets and maybe concert halls, communal dining-rooms, day nurseries, and other things which have all been recommended by people who have studied this matter in the Hobhouse Committee and elsewhere.
  My main point is on the second half of the Bill which has not been so much discussed today—on the Clauses dealing with footpaths and access. I congratulate the Minister on the footpaths section, but, having said that, I must say that I regard the access provisions as the weakest part of the Bill. I want to see that part strengthened in order to put an end to the present uncertainties and anomalies. The law of trespass at the

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  present time has been described as most confusing to the ordinary citizen. I might, perhaps, quote from the advice given in the "Week-end Book" to the innocent rambler on coming into the countryside. It says:
  "Most landowners are amenable to friendliness, argument or money, and it must be left to the genius of the trespasser to choose the right remedy. But there remains one type of landlord for whose injured proprietary instincts no balm can be found—he should never be spoken to except from the other side of a five-barred gate. A slow but dignified retreat to the highway is the best course to pursue."
  When we come to this problem of access we find that the Bill falls very short indeed of the recommendations of the special Footpaths Committee. I would remind the Minister that on that special committee there were representatives of the Ministry of Agriculture and the National Farmers' Union who did not dissent from the recommendations, which were unanimous at that time. They laid down that a duty of designating access land should be placed on the planning authority. Within one year a survey was to be conducted, a draft map was to be drawn up. After the usual allowance for objections, there was to be a statutory map laying down all access land which then, automatically, was to come within the special provisions.
  Contrast that simple, straightforward piece of machinery with what happens under the Bill. Under the Bill any owner may make an access agreement. Only if it appears to the planning authority that it is impracticable to secure an agreement—and there is no time limit set down, so negotiations could drag on indefinitely—may the planning authority make an access order, with a map, and then go through the procedure under the First Schedule. The Minister has a reserve power and may direct the authority to make the order or may do so himself, but a procedure like that, leaving it to one local authority at a time with a reserve power for the Minister in the background, is not much better than the procedure of the 1939 Act which has been a completely dead letter. That Act, which has been on the Statute Book for the last ten years, has enabled any local authority which wished to do so practically to go through the same procedure as in this Bill for designating
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  access land, but not one single authority has ever tried to exercise that power.
  The only difference between that and this Bill is that rather more financial assistance is given. Let me take my right hon. Friend back to Mr. Bryce's Bill in 1888 and compare the position. Clause 2 of that Bill of 1888 said this:
  "No owner or occupier of uncultivated mountain or moorland shall be entitled to exclude any person from walking or being on such ground for the purpose of recreation or artistic study."
  There is the simple principle, that a human being should have the right to stand on his native heath so long as he does no damage and that is the simple principle which I should like to see embodied in this Bill.
  In his opening speech the Minister indicated that he would be prepared to consider laying down some definite time within which all local authorities should make a survey of their areas and make access orders where necessary and where access land was not open at the present time. That is a vast improvement on the Bill as it stands, but even that will lead to some uncertainty. Why not have the simple principle in the Bill which we have for footpaths, that every local authority shall make a survey over a reasonable period—maybe three years, as laid down in the case of footpaths, or perhaps it could be extended to five years—of all access land in the county, and publish a map, with the usual procedure for objections and all the rest of it, and then make an access order which applies to all the access land concerned.
  After all, this would not do any damage to the landlords who are already providing access. From the rambler's point of view it would greatly simplify matters because they will know they are on access land and we shall not have all the confusion which will arise through changes of ownership constantly making it necessary for new, little, fiddling access orders to be made. It will be a much simpler procedure for the local authorities to operate. It was, of course, the procedure very strongly recommended by John Dower in his report. We have paid great tribute to John Dower this evening and I hope we shall pay him a final tribute by putting in the

  1565
  Bill his proposals for access land. He said:
  "… there is a strong case for … new legislation to start by conferring public rights of access over all uncultivated land … by direct and immediately operative provision."
  That is the principle which the Ramblers' Association would like to see embodied in this Bill. I cannot see why it should not be done.
  One special point I wish to make is the position of one type of statutory undertaking, namely the water authorities. My right hon. Friend has said that the gathering grounds are to be dealt with so that they come within the Bill's provisions as to access. I think that the Bill will require amendment, therefore, because as it is drafted at present they come in as statutory undertakings whose land is excepted. I wish to draw attention to what has been happening on this question of gathering grounds. In 1948 a report by all the appropriate authorities was published which said:
  "We can see no justification on the grounds of water purity for prohibiting access to the remainder of the gathering grounds."
  That referred to all gathering grounds other than the actual banks. Over half of the major water undertakings quoted at that time were restricting access to an unwarranted degree. After all, those water undertakings are local authorities. They are the same bodies who, under this Bill, are supposed to be providing access. They have not done so before, and there is nothing in the Bill, except the Minister's reserve power, to make them do it. The Minister has been in consultation with the Minister of Health. The Ministry of Health today do not know any more than they did in 1948 about how much access is being given to gathering grounds, and I suspect that the position is much the same today as it was a year ago, and that no progress has yet been made.
  The point has come up in the Debate several times that there is no power in the Bill for local authorities to receive financial assistance for what I would describe as amenity grants. The example that has been given has been that of electricity cables underground. There are many other examples of how this type of financial assistance will be much required by local authorities that are trying to
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  preserve the beauty of the national parks and the designated areas. I hope that the Minister will look at that matter. As the Chancellor of the Duchy is, I believe, to speak tomorrow, I should like him to deal with a question that I know is dear to his heart, the National Land Fund, which he set up something like three years ago. I quote the following words from his speech in setting up that National Land Fund. He referred to the fact that this Bill would be forthcoming, and he said:
  "It appeared to me that it would be advantageous when this legislation comes along … that there should be what I might describe as a nest egg set aside, which could be used to finance some of the operations necessary in order to give to the public permanent access to the National Parks."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1946; Vol. 421, c. 2841.]
  He set aside £50 million which, he thought, would last for four or five years. I asked a Question of the Treasury today about what had happened to the National Land Fund, and the answer was that only a little more than £250,000 has so far been disbursed, and that seven properties have been acquired and handed over to the appropriate bodies.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Dalton): It is more than £50 million with accrued interest.
  Mr. Hughes: How is it now contemplated that this nest egg will be used to assist the financial obligations of the Commission or the local authorities under this Bill? There are certain other points which my hon. Friends and I hope to raise in Committee.
  In conclusion, I would only say we want to see this Bill implemented and strengthened. There is no time to lose. Already a great deal of ground has been lost—beautiful countryside that ought to have been preserved—since the war. America, New Zealand and other countries are far ahead of us in the steps that they have taken to preserve the beauty of their countryside and to provide access to it for their citizens. Our need is much greater than theirs. We in this country since the Industrial Revolution have been suffering, to some extent, from over-urbanisation, and an over-mechanical civilisation, and we are in some danger of losing the health, vitality, imagination and love of beauty which come from contact with nature. May I

  1567
  quote from Professor Trevelyan, one of the most famous exponents of the idea of national parks:
  "The race bred under such conditions"—
  of the industrial town divorced from nature—
  "might retain many sturdy qualities of character, might improve in physique, might develop sharp wits and a brave humorous attitude to life, but its imaginative powers must necessarily decline, and the stage is set for the gradual standardisation of human life. … Without vision the people perish, and without sight of the beauty of nature the spiritual power of the British people will be atrophied."
  We feel that through the provisions of this Bill town and country can be brought closer together, that both will benefit, and that our people will live a fuller and happier life in consequence.
  9.56 p.m.
  Major Tufton Beamish: I found myself much in agreement with the Minister of Town and Country Planning when he drew attention to the lack of understanding by the townsman of the countryman's point of view. I think that we have seen that in recent weeks in the attempt of a number of Members of Parliament to abolish fox hunting, coursing and other kindred sports. They were heavily defeated because the political acumen of the Front Bench was rather greater than their emotional feelings. It was quite obvious to me that 95 per cent. of those—and this bears out what the Minister said—who wished to abolish these snorts were townsmen who probably did not know the difference between a badger and a fox or, at any rate, not the difference between their smells.
  I do not want to go into this too deeply, except to support what the Minister has said, but I hope that the terms of reference to the Committee will be kept very broad. It is obvious to me, and a reasonable assumption that, under this Bill which we are discussing today, an increased number of people will enjoy shooting, hunting and fishing, and I feel most profoundly that if the terms of reference to this particular Committee which is being set up are kept too narrow, it may seriously interfere with the people's enjoyment of these traditional British sports. The Minister described the objects of the Bill as being to enable the people to see the countryside, to get to the countryside and to
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  enjoy the countryside. I am sure that all of us in this House quite apart from party politics, agree with those very worthy objectives.
  I want to draw attention to two matters. It so happens that a very large slice of the South Downs, the area of which is 176,000 acres in so far as the national park is concerned, lies within the boundaries of my constituency. I want, therefore, to say a few words about the present condition of the South Downs and to ask whether that condition is likely to be improved under the Bill. I want also to say something about the Nature Conservancy and wild life conservation with regard to all the areas affected by the Bill. Part IV of the Bill deals with the question of loss of access and rights of way, and the Minister in his speech made some reference to the ploughing up of footpaths. That is something about which I know quite a lot at the moment because I get many letters from my constituents with reference to the South Downs. The South Downs, of course, have a very special importance under this Bill because they will become a national park within easy access of London. I want, therefore, to describe the present position of the South Downs as they are being looked after by Government Departments.
  It being Ten o'Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

GOLD COAST (GOLD MINING)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. George Wallace.]
10.0 p.m.
Mr. Keeling: I want to draw attention to the very serious straits in which the gold mining industry of the Gold Coast finds itself today. There are 10 companies mining gold in the Gold Coast, with a total capital of £15 million; of these 10 companies, six are making profits, large or small, but mostly rather small, and four are making losses. Since the year 1940–41, when production reached its peak, there has been a decline of nearly 40 per cent., and today production is very little more than half a million ounces a year.
Now, the gold mining industry is not only of great importance to the Gold

1569
Coast, where it is second in importance to the cocoa industry—and if the swollen shoot disease goes on growing in the Gold Coast as fast as the present Government of the Colony is allowing it to grow, the mining industry will soon be first in importance—but is also a big earner of dollars. The present production earns nearly 20 million dollars a year, and it is obviously very important to increase that production if we can, and to reverse the present tendency for it to decline. Can it be done? Well, at a conference between the mining industry and the Colonial Office held the year before last, the mining industry offered to increase the annual production to a million ounces—that is to say, to very nearly double the present production—within three or four years, provided the Colonial Office would play its part.
What are the reasons for the decline in production, and what is the Colonial Office asked to do to help? The first reason for the decline is the scarcity of labour, the big rise in wages, and the decline in output per man-shift. There can be no suggestion now that wages should be put back to their old level. The decline in output per man-shift is a phenomenon with which we are painfully familiar in this country in coal mining, and with which other countries are familiar. But the Colonial Office could very much facilitate the importation of labour into the Gold Coast proper from the Northern territories. Hon. Members who visited the Gold Coast with me a couple of years ago would, I think, agree that there is no employer in the Colony who treats labour better than do the mining companies. The labour in the mines is far better lodged and fed than is the ordinary agricultural labourer, although I freely admit that more could be done in the way of amenities if the profits of the companies were greater.
The second cause of the decline in production is the high and growing cost of the materials used in mining. Very little, if anything, can be done by the Government about that, but just because of the high cost of labour and materials I suggest that the Government ought to be very careful not to crush the industry out of existence by taxation. That is exactly what is happening. Large
1570
tonnages of developed ore hitherto payable have become unpayable, and unless a remedy is found, they will remain in the ground to the detriment of the Colony and of the United Kingdom.
Until recently an export duty on gold of approximately 10 per cent. was levied. That was quite clearly unfair because it was levied on all gold whether a profit was being made on it or not. I am glad to say that export duty was abolished last September, but a new tax based on profits was substituted, the yield from which was about the same in total as the old, though it was so framed that the low-grade mines benefited to some extent. However, the relief was not adequate to save the low-grade mines which, as I have said, are rapidly declining.
What does the gold mining industry desire in order to arrest the process of decay? Obviously the easiest thing would be a rise in the price of gold, but for that American consent would have to be forthcoming, and there does not seem to be very much hope that it would be forthcoming. We come then to the only remedy which seems to be adequate, and that is a subsidy. It seems absolutely necessary that if the production is not to go on declining, a subsidy be provided. In Canada, where there has been the same difficulty, a subsidy is given, in proportion not to the price of the gold but to the cost of mining it. I suggest that this principle should be applied in the Gold Coast. In the interests of the Colony and because of the importance of earning dollars, I urge that the question of a subsidy should be very seriously considered by the Government.
10.7 p.m.
Mr. William Teeling: There is at present a feeling in the country that we are being asked, in order to bridge the dollar gap, to do almost more than the country can. All have been reading in their newspapers today and yesterday the difficulties about Argentine meat and how we may well be forced to have less and less meat. On other occasions Ministers have appealed to the people to do their level best to buy less in order that more may be exported. We are therefore depriving ourselves all the time in order to improve the export market, and although we are told that that is going very well in non-dollar areas, it is made only

1571
too plain to us that from the dollar point of view the gap has in no way been bridged and we are still in a very difficult position.
Many of us are beginning to ask whether all parts of Great Britain and the Colonies are participating and doing their level best. As to the Colonies, we have seen in the White Paper on European Co-operation, Command 7572, which refers to what the Colonies can do, the way in which they can help, but, oddly enough, there seems to be no reference in it at all to the gold situation. South Africa, of course, is nothing to do with us from that point of view, and we can have nothing to say about it, but we can do a lot with regard to the Gold Coast. Are we doing so? I understand that some time ago the leaders of the gold mining industry in the Gold Coast, including the famous Ashanti Mines, approached the Colonial Office and explained what could be done; but practically nothing has been done.
Last Saturday hon. Members who read "The Times" will have seen a letter from the chairman of the Ashanti Mines and others concerned with the mining industry on the Gold Coast explaining that more could very definitely be done and that something like 35 million dollars could be provided each year to bridge the dollar gap. With Marshall Aid that would be helpful; when Marshall Aid is over it will be still more helpful. Are we doing anything about it? The impression I get in talking to those interested in Colonial affairs in this House, not only on the Opposition side but also on the Government benches too, is that with regard to general planning and mapping out of the possibilities of bridging this gap the Colonial Office is the one that hangs back most of all.
Those of us who have travelled in the Colonies in the past know only too well the stalling possibilities of the Colonial Office, and at present, from all we hear, the way those stalling officials have got round the Colonial Secretary and, in a sense, taken control of him is making it almost impossible for anything really to be done of a constructive nature in this matter. That is why we are bringing forward this question at the present moment. That is why we are pressing the Colonial Office to find out what they are doing in regard to the Gold Coast,
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and in regard to the possibilities of helping the United Kingdom and the working classes of the United Kingdom to lighten their burdens without really hurting the ordinary people of the Gold Coast.
I believe quite frankly that the Colonial Office as a whole is not bothering very much about it and has not been bothering much about it, and that is why we are bringing up this question tonight. If I may say so, we are not only bringing it up tonight but, so far as my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling), myself and others are concerned, we will continue definitely to bring it up in the future, because it is not only this country that is interested. When we hear of the famous remarks made by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and others in the United States that everything is going wonderfully well, that we are really now on our feet again in the United Kingdom, and then suddenly the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "Oh, yes, but things are very tricky from the gold and the dollar point of view as regards the United States"—when that is being said, then not unnaturally the United States wants to see whether we are doing anything at all about the bridging of that dollar gap. And are we with regard to the Colonies?
With regard to the Gold Coast, my information is that we are doing practically nothing about it. When one gets Sir Edward Spears, the head of Ashanti, and Sir Joseph Ball, the great authority on mining, who, after all, are the biggest gold men practically in any part of the world, putting forward the suggestion that we should and could by a subsidy add considerably more dollars to the bridging of this gap, and when we hear that nothing is done about it and no attention is paid, I think that both the Americans and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as the people of this country, who are at present suffering considerably, have a right to ask why is the Colonial Secretary doing nothing about it?
Is it because his officials are spending too much of their time thinking out their own little reforms internally in the different parts of the Colonies and saying, "We have nothing to do with what the United Kingdom working classes and other people are suffering. We are out for

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our own particular little interest. We are cut off from all this." Surely it is time that both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister made the Colonial Secretary pool his ideas with theirs for the real help and benefit of the whole Empire as one.
My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham has referred already to the possibility of a subsidy on Canadian lines. Other subsidies of course, have been used in Rhodesia and elsewhere. Without any doubt, a subsidy which would increase production and which would be related not to the price of gold, but to the cost of mining it, should have the immediate consideration of the Colonial Secretary—who, I am very glad to see, has now arrived and will, I hope, read our Debate tomorrow.
I should like to point out that the Canadian subsidy, unlike the Southern Rhodesian subsidy, is based on slightly different lines, which, as far as one can see, are arousing no opposition from the International Monetary Fund. If this is working satisfactorily, although there may be greater difficulties in mining in West Africa, it should be possible, with alterations, to use the Canadian method of subsidy for this area. I should like the Colonial Secretary to study this matter seriously in the immediate future and bring it before the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a possibility for the long-term future. As far as we know, it has not been properly studied, and therefore I appeal to the Colonial Office not only to try to help the Chancellor of the Exchequer in bridging the gap, but to help the people of this country in some way to lighten their burden.
Sir Arthur Salter: I do not wish to make a speech. I only want to interject the relevant and not, I think, altogether uninteresting observation that I suppose gold is the only commodity in the world of which the dollar price was fixed in January, 1934, and has never been changed since.
10.17 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Rees-Williams): The House will appreciate that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) has the interests of the country at heart in so far he desires to increase the flow of gold from the Gold Coast and thereby benefit the trade of the Commonwealth
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as a whole. So far as the speech of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) is concerned, however, I think that the matter which actuated him was completely political. He dragged in all sorts of extraneous matter which had nothing whatever to do either with gold or the Gold Coast, and made an attack upon my right hon. Friend which was entirely unjustified, as I shall show.
The fundamental difficulty of the gold mining industry is that while the selling price of gold is fixed, as the right hon. Gentleman the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) has said, the costs of production—wages and material—have increased in the last few years. This difficulty applies to all gold-producing countries and is not peculiar to the Gold Coast. Therefore, we in the Colonial Office and the Government of the Gold Coast have tried to ascertain what steps could be taken to increase the gold production of the territory, at the same time ensuring that a proper proportion of the proceeds of the gold from the Gold Coast results in benefits for the people of that territory.
Like all other mineral deposits, gold is a wasting asset. Every ounce which is extracted is taken from the country. My right hon. Friend has taken great pains personally to do all that he could to stimulate the production of gold, and in the course of his inquiries he tried to ascertain whether it was possible to amend the then system of taxation in order to arrive at this desirable result. Last October, after consultation with the Governor of the Gold Coast, a Measure was enacted in the Gold Coast introducing a new system of taxation to achieve the object which I have explained. Under the new system the duty payable is related to profits and not, as previously, to the quantity of ore extracted. It was intended to afford substantial relief to the low and medium grade mines on the Gold Coast. The overall result of this amendment of the system of taxation is a reduction in the total amount of duty payable by the industry in the colony.
Mr. Teeling: A small reduction.
Mr. Rees-Williams: That may be but it is a reduction, it is not an increase. In addition to that, the Ministry of Supply have helped the industry substantially by enabling them to obtain

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gold mining machinery; the price of fuel and gas oils has been reduced because certain taxation which previously applied to them has been removed. It is reduced by about 10s. a ton with effect from 9th February. Mining machinery is entirely exempted from import duties
The hon. Member for Twickenham asked certain specific questions. He said that labour and materials were high in cost and I agree with that. They have risen but, on the other hand, the tax is based on profits and not on the total amount of ore produced. He also said that we were taxing the industry out of existence, but in fact there has been a constant rise in the production of gold. In 1946 the figure was 647,000 fine ounces. In 1947, owing to strikes, there was a reduction to 569,000 fine ounces and in 1948 the amount had risen to 670,000 fine ounces.
Mr. Keeling: What was it in 1940–41?
Mr. Rees-Williams: In 1942 it was 882,000 fine ounces. In the last few years, from 1946—
Mr. Keeling: There has been a reduction.
Mr. Rees-Williams: On the contrary, it has gone up from 1946 to 1948. There has been a rise in the amount of gold exported. It will be realised that during the war very great efforts were made to get the maximum output of gold. The hon. Member stated that 35 million dollars could be obtained if certain measures, which are rather indefinite, were taken to produce more gold. In fact that figure would mean that there would have to be somewhere about one million ounces of gold.
Mr. Keeling: More than that.
Mr. Rees-Williams: More than that. But the peak production at any one time was 882,000 fine ounces when every effort was put in and when mining practice was neglected owing to the war.
Mr. Teeling: If the hon. Gentleman is speaking of 1942 that was in the middle of the war. If the heads of the mining industry, who ought to know their job, say that it can be raised to one million, why should the hon. Gentleman suggest that it is not possible?
Mr. Rees-Williams: I am not saying that it is not possible but that it has never been done and we have not had explained to us how it is proposed to be done by the mining industry.
Mr. Teeling: Has the hon. Gentleman seen them?
Mr. Rees-Williams: Our people have seen them and I have visited the mines. The peak production at any time was more than 100,000 fine ounces less than the million ounces which it is said would be required if 35 million dollars were to be obtained. The hon. Member for Brighton has said that we are completely out of touch with the industry and take no notice of the various mining representatives who come to see us. That is not so. Only a few months ago I myself visited the mines in the Gold Coast. At the present moment the Government of the Gold Coast have asked the local Chamber of Mines to give the Government a complete review of the economic situation of the industry with any suggestions which they may have and this review is awaited. That in itself shows that, so far from neglecting or cold-shouldering this industry, we are most anxious to work in close touch and harmony with it.
Mr. Teeling: But only the other day the hon. Gentleman told me, in answer to a Question, that no representations at all had been received by him.
Mr. Rees-Williams: That is so.
Mr. Teeling: Then the hon. Gentleman is not in touch.
Mr. Rees-Williams: The industry have been invited by the Government to make representations or give a review of the situation and no such review has been received. No formal representations have been received. If they are received we shall consider them most carefully. I wanted to make that clear to show that neither on the part of my right hon. Friend nor the Gold Coast Government has there been any question of cold-shouldering the industry which, we quite agree, is a most valuable industry, both to the Sterling Area as a whole and to the Gold Coast in particular.
The financial papers and the financial writers do not take the lugubrious view of the situation which is taken by the

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hon. Member for Twickenham. Only last Sunday I read in the "Sunday Times" an article by the City Editor in which he advised his readers to buy gold shares. He said that many people were getting out of industrial and commodity shares and into gold.
Mr. Keeling: West African?
Mr. Rees-Williams: He did not define West African or any other shares.
Mr. Keeling: Oh.
Mr. Rees-Williams: Well, gold is gold and shares are shares. The City Editor went on to say:
"If he is looking overseas"—
and West Africa is, of course, overseas—
"he might reflect that oil is an even greater necessity than gold, though I do not rule out gold as an insurance against world-wide deflation."
Here is the City editor of the "Sunday Times" specifying gold shares as being excellent shares in which to invest.
Mr. Teeling: West African?
Mr. Rees-Williams: He does not specify. We know that Kaffirs have been most active recently in the market. I read the "Financial Times" to get the wisdom of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Brendan Bracken), as we so rarely have the opportunity of hearing it in this House. I see that only today he, or his paper, comments on the activity in gold mining shares in the Kaffir market.
Sir A. Salter: The hon. Member should realise that what has happened is that
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there was a very rapid fall and then a recovery. It is not relevant to the longterm outlook which he is putting.
Mr. Rees-Williams: I am saying, at all events, that those who write in the financial papers do not look upon this particular industry in the pessimistic way that the hon. Gentlemen opposite do. In fact, they strongly recommend gold shares as a good investment for those who wish to invest in Stock Exchange quotations.
As I have said, we in the Colonial Office, and my right hon. Friend in particular, realise to the full the desirability of increasing production to improve our dollar position and for the benefit of the Gold Coast. But the various measures which have been suggested are not measures which my right hon. Friend can take. They are measures for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or for international agreement, and not matters that could be put to the Colonial Secretary. The measures were the subsidy and the rise in price of gold. Those are clearly not measures for my right hon. Friend but, so far as he is concerned, and within the scope of his function and powers he will do everything possible for the benefit of the industry.
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Half-past Ten o'Clock.

COAL INDUSTRY
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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  LAND AND WATER RESOURCES
  3.5 p.m.
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to make a statement arising out of a point made in yesterday's debate on land and water resources initiated by the noble Earl, Lord Radnor. It will be within the recollection of the House that the noble Earl referred to the loss of land during the nine years 1939 to 1947, and quoted the average figure of 50,000 acres per annum. In my reply, I said that a more appropriate figure, and one which would afford a fairer comparison with the prewar position, would be the average loss for the years 1946 to 1948; and I quoted the figure of 30,000 acres. I have since looked into this more carefully, and I am sorry to say that I used this figure inadvertently. The figure should have been, not 30,000 acres but 38,000 acres. I should also have explained that this applies to the amount which was used for building and general constructional development. It does, however, afford a more useful comparison with the average for the twelve years preceding the war, in which the same type of development showed a loss to agriculture of 47,650 acres per annum. I regret that quite unintentionally I misled the House on this matter.
  THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for his correction, but I must make the point that these little slips would not occur if we had a regular annual return of the land taken.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, for the previous years to which the noble Earl referred the annual return for which the noble Earl is now longing was made.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether
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  the excellent precedent which appears to have been created by the National Government will be followed by the Labour Government?
  LORD HARLECH: My Lords, may I ask if that return did include and, if it is repeated, will include the land taken by the War Office?
  THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, the figure referred only to land used for constructional and building purposes.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES
3.8 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Second Report from the Select Committee.
1.—REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HIGHER CIVIL SERVICE REMUNERATION.
The Committee considered the Report of the Committee on Higher Civil Service Remuneration and approved the application of its recommendations to the Officers of the House as and when the Government gives effect to the proposals in the Civil Service generally.
2.—GIFT TO CAEN UNIVERSITY.
The Committee authorised a payment to meet the binding, etc., of the printed records of the House of Lords that are being presented to the University of Caen.
3.—ROYAL GALLERY BOOKSTALL.
The Committee agreed to the new regulations respecting the stall for the sale of guide books, etc., in the Royal Gallery on days on which the Palace of Westminster is open to the public.
4.—GRATUITIES TO LEGAL PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES OF CUSTODIANS.
The Committee sanctioned the payment of gratuities under the Superannuation Acts, 1909 and 1935, to the legal personal representatives of Custodians W. H. Harris and J. Smith, who died on 4th December, 1948, and 19th January, 1949, respectively.
5.—SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE LIBRARY.
A Report from the Library Sub-Committee that they have appointed the Viscount Simon to be a member of the Sub-Committee was read, and agreed to.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move that the Second Report from the Select Committee he now considered.
Moved, That the Report be now considered.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I do not think there is anything in this Report to which I should draw your Lordships' attention. I beg to move that it be approved.
Moved, That the Report be agreed to.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (QUOTAS) AMENDMENT ORDER, 1949
3.9 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved. Through the courtesy of the noble Viscount who at the present moment leads the Apposition, I was able a week ago to give your Lordships notice that I should be moving this Motion this afternoon. I feel that your Lordships would expect from me some explanation as to why the films quota has been reduced from 45 per cent. to 40 per cent. Before I give it, may I refresh your Lordships' memories with the circumstances which surrounded the imposition of this 45 per cent. quota? The 75 per cent. import duty, which His Majesty's Government felt obliged to impose owing to the acute dollar shortage, was replaced by what is known as the Johnston-Wilson agreement, which altered that duty to an arrangement whereby 17,000,000 dollars could be sent out of the country from the earnings of American films.
Those circumstances created a position—I need not go into the reasons why—which was favourable to the production of British films. My right honourable friend, the President of the Board of Trade, sought to give an assurance to British producers that if they seized this opportunity of establishing themselves, they would have something they had never had before, and that was a market for the films they produced. So, given an assurance by the British producers that they would make available the number of films necessary—and this I would impress upon noble Lords—my right honourable friend imposed a quota of 45 per cent. I maintain that His Majesty's Government had every right to expect that the British film producing industry would seize this opportunity of establishing itself,
904
produce the number of films which they said they were capable of doing, and make the 45 per cent. quota work.
But neither of those two things happened, and it is pertinent to ask why. It appears that there was an entire lack of confidence in the industry. Those gentlemen who used to introduce the equity capital into the film industry (known I think as the "angels") had flown; and so all through the past quota year we were faced with a position whereby, through the shortage of British films, quite a number of the cinemas in this country which were doing their level best to complete their quota were quite incapable of doing so. I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, for giving me prior notice of a question he is to ask, and if he will not mind my anticipating his asking me, I will give him the answer now, because it may be for the convenience of your Lordships to have the information. Of just under 5,000 cinemas in the country, 1,471 were relieved of the obligation to give 45 per cent. screen time of British films, and their quota was reduced on a sliding scale to anything from 10 to 40 per cent. A further 307 cinemas were relieved of the obligation in its entirety.
Section 4 of the Cinematograph Films Act empowers the Board of Trade to allow reduced quota percentages, and in some cases total exemption, to exhibitors who apply for relief and who satisfy certain conditions. Those conditions are, first, that each applicant must be able to show that, owing to circumstances beyond his control, two or more competing theatres in the same locality as his theatre are showing British films before his theatre can show them. Moreover, where an exhibitor is able to show at the end of a quota period that he did his best to fulfil his quota, and that he failed to do so because it was commercially impracticable for him so to do, his default under the Act would not constitute an offence. Those were the reliefs granted under the Act for the last quota year, and I should be misleading your Lordships if I gave any promise that under the new quota of 40 per cent. there will be any fewer reliefs. Those reliefs from the 45 per cent. quota brought the effective quota to 38 per cent. Now that our proposal is to reduce it to 40 per cent. the effective quota, with those same reliefs, will come down to about 33⅓ per cent.

905
There are some very strange consequences, and I might also say strange happenings, in the film world to-day. To illustrate this, I may tell your Lordships that the Films Council, which my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade is statutorily required to consult, were almost equally divided upon the question of whether to maintain or reduce the existing quota. The proclucers, the renters and half the trade union representatives wanted the existing 45 per cent. quota maintained; the exhibitors and the other half of the trade union representatives supported a proposal to reduce the quota to 33⅓ per cent. Noble Lords will understand the diffidence I have in mentioning the Films Council in your Lordships' House, because of the presence of the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, who is the Chairman of that body. And it was the Chairman's casting vote which swayed the report of the Council in favour of a reduction. I think I am right in saying, however (if I am not, I am sure the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, will correct me), that although he was in favour of a reduction and his casting vote swayed the recommendation of my right honourable friend, he was not necessarily in favour of a reduction to 33⅓ per cent.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Before the noble Lord passes from this recital of how people voted, would he tell your Lordships what I think would carry more weight with them—namely, how the independent members of the Council voted?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Again, perhaps the noble Earl will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe they voted in such a manner that the two sides were equally divided, and they had to have the casting vote of the Chairman.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Then, if the noble Lord is uninformed at the moment, would he in the course of the debate obtain the information and tell me whether it is not a fact that the independent members were four to one in favour of 33⅓ per cent.?
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene. I think the figures showed that three independent members, including myself, voted for the resolution, and one voted against.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: That is typical of the divided opinions and counsels of the film industry, with which my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade is embarrassed. Also he suffers not only from a divided film industry but from a surfeit of advice from every conceivable quarter. It is volunteered by all who think they have the slightest knowledge or connection with the film industry—and they are legion—until his position is somewhat like that of the man with a drunken wife—everyone knows what to do with her except the man who has her. In face of all these difficulties and all these contrary opinions, my right honourable friend has to come to a decision.
To bring this down to a realistic basis, what are the opposing forces arguing about? For a cinema which changes its programme once a week a 45 per cent. quota means that to satisfy that quota it has to show in one year twenty-four British films. A 40 per cent. quota requires a showing of twenty-one films, a decrease of three. A 33⅓ per cent. quota requires eighteen films. So the exhibitors who wanted a 33⅓ per cent. quota differed from my right honourable friend's 40 per cent. by only three films per annum. Of course, if the cinemas change their programmes twice a week, the figure is doubled. I do not claim that the reduction in the quota of British films will affect the basic problem of this industry. It will not. It must be realised that any reduction in the quota is detrimental to our great effort to stabilise British film production.
I agree that the British film producers are not the only ones to be considered. The exhibitors must also be considered and a balance has to be held. But it is as well to realise that the only advantage of reducing this quota will be that the exhibitor will have a slightly greater freedom of choice, and the net result may be an improvement in the quality of films—a subject about which there has been a great deal of adverse criticism during recent months. After consultation with the Films Council, it has been estimated that during the quota period about eighty British first-feature films will be made available, and a 40 per cent. quota could be satisfied by the showing of sixty-three British films. The difference between that figure of sixty-three in satisfaction of

907
the quota and the approximately eighty which will be made available will be the measure of the exhibitor's freedom of choice.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Are we to understand from that that within the next year there will be eighty new British films?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: There will be eighty new British films made available. Some are being made now; some have been made. Altogether, eighty will be made available for exhibition for the first time.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Old and new?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: All films which have not been previously shown. It is hoped that the reduction in the quota will be temporary, but the present position is very difficult. I made the observation before that the equity "angels" appear to have taken to their wings and flown. In general terms, it is true that the only equity capital available for the production of independent British films to date is coming from Government-sponsored sources. The National Film Finance Company, which will be displaced by the Film Finance Corporation, has prepared the ground well. It has already financed three distribution organisations and has laid plans, and will make recommendations to the Corporation, when it is set up, to finance seven different and independent producing enterprises. From this it seems reasonable to assume that in the immediate future seven British films will be under way which would not otherwise have been started.
As I said in your Lordships' House the last time we debated this matter, if my right honourable friend is satisfied that all the circumstances are there to warrant it, he will have no hesitation in going to His Majesty's Government and requesting an increase in the financial limitation of £5,000,000 at present imposed on the Film Finance Corporation. But may I repeat that the salvation of the British film industry has got to be worked out by itself? Any aid which the Government can give is purely first aid. There can be only one basis upon which a successful British film industry can be built and
908
sustained, and that is by the closest co-operation between producers, renters and exhibitors. I hope that the Portal Committee which are at present inquiring into this matter will bring forward a basis upon which that co-operative structure can be built. As we in this House know the noble Viscount so well, I have no doubt that we shall have a very constructive Report.
I would again underline the fact that all sections of this industry must co-operate. It is no good—if I may be allowed to use colloquial language—one section of the British film industry wanting to take fur coats off cinema stars and at the same time wishing to wrap up another section in cotton wool. We have got to have this co-operation because, given the chance, the British film industry can produce the finest films in the world. It has just made one which has not only won universal praise in this country but gained acceptance in America. All noble Lords who have seen Hamlet will, I think, agree with me. I am not sure that Hamlet in one of his soliloquys did not use a descriptive term which might aptly be applied to this film industry. I hope that your Lordships will agree to accept this quota, and if there is any question that it is proper for me to answer, I will gladly do so. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday be approved.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
3.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords your Lordships will be obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his exposition of a rather curious Order. He has displayed his characteristic courtesy and clarity, and I must say that on this occasion he has displayed an unusual amount of ingenuity and imagination. Ingenuity, indeed, is required to defend this Order, and he has drawn on his imagination, perhaps wisely, because I certainly could not find that his arguments were based on premises which bore any near relation to the facts. He has obviously taken to heart the maxim: Never make a mistake in your logic, the facts remain at your disposal. If I may be allowed to follow his example, I will go back a little into the history of the past, because I agree with him that it is only against the background of the past history and

909
experience of this industry that we can judge the present situation and decide what it is wise to do.
Under the Cinematograph Films Act, as the noble Lord has said, the President of the Board of Trade is empowered, by means of a Special Order approved by Parliament to fix a film quota for six months or longer. Your Lordships will remember that last June this House approved, I think with great hesitation, a quota for feature films of 45 per cent. On that occasion there was a great deal of informed criticism that that quota was too high. Indeed, I think the only person who defended it was the spokesman for the Government, Lord Chorley. Under the old Act, it had been the practice to fix a progressively advancing quota which was always lower, and was intended to be lower, than the number of films which the British industry, with the studio space at its disposal, could produce. That practice had a twofold object. In the first place, it ensured that there was an ample supply of British films to enable the exhibitors, large and small—and the small are just as important as the large—to comply with their statutory quota. In the second place, it was intended to, and did, encourage British producers to produce good films which would show not under a compulsory quota but upon merit.
That system was completely successful. Within a few years of the passage of the original Act, which I had the pleasure of piloting, British cinemas were showing nearly three times as many British films as they were compelled to show under their statutory quota. Last year, when the President of the Board of Trade fixed the quota at 45 per cent., certain criticisms were made, and I think every single point of criticism has been justified by events. It was said that it was doubtful whether British producers would produce sufficient films. We now know that they have not. It was said that even if they did produce the physical number, the quality would suffer, and that would be bad for the producers as well as for the exhibitors. I do not think there is the least doubt that that is true. Of course, some magnificent films have been made. Whether too much money was spent on, them or not, I do not know, but they were first-class films. There was nothing new in that, of course. British films always have
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maintained a high place in quality. But I do not think it will be denied that at the other end of the scale, under this "hot-house" protection, some extraordinarily bad films were produced.
It was said that if sufficient British films were not available, the exhibitors would have to obtain exemption or relief from the Board of Trade; but it was always intended under the Act that that should not be the rule but the exception. And it was said, I think with truth, as figures have shown now, that an excessive quota would work more hardly against the independent exhibitors. Finally, it was said that an excessive quota would undermine the willing co-operation of exhibitors, on which the success of the Act must depend and on which we were able to rely for the twenty years during which the two preceding Acts were working. The Government would not have any of those arguments. They brushed them aside. They said that the 45 per cent. quota was well within the capacity of producers. It now transpires that the Board of Trade were wrong, and the critics were right. And so we have the present proposal to reduce the quota to 40 per cent. Probably nearly every member of your Lordships' House thinks that this is too high, but we are working in a difficult position—indeed, I would almost say in an impossible position. When you have a thoroughly bad proposal put before you, the natural thing to do is to reject it; but if we reject this Order, what would be the result? We should be still worse off, because the Order fixing the quota at 45 per cent. would remain. Therefore, we have to accept the 40 per cent. in order to get rid of the 45 per cent. That shows how unfortunate it is to legislate in this way—because this amounts to legislation.
This Order is presented to us at twenty-four hours' notice. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, very courteously spoke to me last week. He told me that if we did not take the Order to-day, which was the earliest day upon which we could take it and pass it, then the excessive quota of 45 per cent. would run for another six months after October. Therefore he had to bring the Order before the House to-day. The most that he could do was to inform Parliament, in answer to a Question, what the Order

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proposed to do. If this matter is to be dealt with properly and in order, it would be much more appropriate, and in the long run much more convenient for the Board of Trade as well as all sections of the industry, if a draft order could be presented to us and debated. Then, if the opinion of Parliament was that the quota was too high, the President of the Board of Trade could take it back and make an order more in conformity with the informed opinion of the House. This is particularly a case where that might be done, because it involves no Party issues. We all want to do what is right by this industry. I think the President would serve the interests of the industry and his own Department better if he had a little less autarchy in this business and invited a little more co-operation. However, that is the position, and unless we pass this order the 45 per cent. quota goes on. If the 40 per cent. is excessive—and I shall show the House why I think it is—then all the criticisms which events have justified will apply with renewed force.
Let us see how this is likely to affect the exhibitor, because, after all, the exhibitor does matter. There is a tendency to talk as if the exhibitor was brought in only as an afterthought. Perhaps he is the most important person in this industry. He is the man who caters for the public and who suffers if the public is not satisfied, because we cannot impose a compulsory quota on cinema audiences and compel them to see films which they do not want to see! The loss falls on the cinema proprietor, and the aggregate capital invested in cinema theatres must be far greater than the aggregate capital invested in distribution and production. The good will of the exhibitor is essential.
Under the original Act the exhibitor had a double safeguard. It was most carefully worked out. First of all, his quota was a reasonable one; and secondly, there was a renter's quota—the renter being the wholesaler who distributes the films to the exhibitors. The renter's quota was always higher than the exhibitor's quota, so that the renter had a financial stake and interest in placing with the exhibitors a margin of British films in excess of the exhibitors' quotas
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because they were good films and the exhibitors were prepared to take them on their merits. That worked very well. The renter's quota was dropped in the new Act, and I have never understood why. We were told by the Minister that it was done for a good reason; but I was never able to get at what the reason was. I think the House would be greatly interested to know the reason.
I see that there is great and growing support for a return to the renter's quota. I believe all the exhibitors are in favour of it—certainly all except those who have a dual interest and are probably more concerned in production and distribution than in exhibition, or who have a firm and sure market for their own wares. I think I am right in saying that every exhibitor who is not a tied house is anxious for a return to the renter's quota. I do not think that will be denied. I see that recently the trade unions have taken the same view. Mr. O'Brien, a Member of another place, who I understand is the General Secretary of one of the unions concerned, has been strongly advocating a return to the renter's quota. It certainly worked very well. It would probably be a wise thing, by a small piece of amending legislation which I am sure would go rapidly through both Houses, by common consent, to return to a renter's quota.
I said—and I was not the only one—that if the Government insisted on an excessive quota there would have to be a great amount of relief given to the exhibitors. I would like to remind your Lordships of what I said in the debate on June 29, 1948:
"I know I shall be told that if an exhibitor can show that he cannot fill his quota, the President of the Board of Trade may excuse him. That is not very satisfactory, though it is absolutely necessary to have that provision. If the quota is fixed so high that nearly every exhibitor comes along and claims to be excused, it means that a great burden is placed upon the Board of Trade who will be almost driven to decide it by rule of thumb. That was never the intention of Parliament when this Bill was passed. The intention of Parliament was that the application for exemption should be the exception, and not the rule; that the exhibitor should prove his case, and that each case should be decided upon its merits. If the President of the Board of Trade finds himself faced with hundreds of applications for exemption, he will not then be able to decide them on their merits and he will be driven to decide them by rule of thumb."

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On that occasion the noble Lord, Lord Chorley (he has disappeared; he is very wise) pooh-poohed my arguments and said they were all nonsense. This is what the noble Lord said:
"There is no reason to suppose that there will be wholesale exemptions such as the noble Viscount envisaged."
I said: "hundreds"; we now know that it is nearly 2,000. He continued:
"It is quite true, of course, that what might be called block exemptions, if handed out, would stultify the object of the Act. Obviously, there will be, here and there, cases in connection with the small towns, especially over the initial period, where there may be difficulties; but these can be dealt with by my honourable friend under what might be called the escape clause of the Act."
Let us see who was right. I asked the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, to give us the figures, and he has given them to us today. He said there were over 4,700 cinemas. According to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, there was to be an odd case here and there. As the noble Lord has just told us, the Board of Trade have been compelled to grant relief in no fewer than 1,770 cases; 1,471, he told us, were granted from 40 per cent. to 10 per cent. relief, and 300 or more were excluded altogether, as there were not enough films for them to do anything under the Act. Was my estimate of "hundreds" so wide of the mark? Does that not show that the quota was excessive? Does it not show that the effect has been, as the noble Lord, Lord Chorley said, to "stultify the object of the Act"?
I am sure that this quota will also prove excessive; indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has not denied it. What was intended to be an exceptional escape clause is to continue. The noble Lord says: "We are going to fix a quota at 40 per cent., but we know that a large number of cinemas will have to apply for relief this year, as they did last year, and there will be so many of them that it will reduce the effective quota to 33⅓ per cent." But why should those cinemas be put to all this trouble and inconvenience; and why should you stultify the Act in this way? If 1,700 cinemas cannot fulfil this quota, why cannot there be a quota which they can fulfil? That, surely, is the sensible way of doing business. As we now know, on the Minister's own statement, that 1,700 or more will be unable to comply with this quota, I ask the Govern
914
ment to give the House in terms the assurance that those cinemas will be accorded as generous relief in the coming year as the Board of Trade have had to concede to them in the past. I sincerely hope that that undertaking will be quite unequivocally given.
What prospect is there that this quota will be fulfilled? It is surely unnecessary to argue it, because the Minister has said that in the case of these hundreds of cinemas there cannot be enough British films. The industry is in great difficulty; many studios have closed down. I see that Mr. O'Brien said last December, I think in another place:
"In the country at the present time there are about 27 studios, large and small. Of those 27 studios, 16 are closed. Another studio will be closing next January…."
In the face of that, what is the sense of fixing this quota at 40 per cent.? The noble Lord said that the President of the Board of Trade had to decide on his own, because he had such a lot of conflicting advice. It will always be found that the producers ask for a high quota and the exhibitors for a lower quota. It is perfectly natural that that should be so. If one man is a seller and another a buyer, the seller wants to get as high a price as he can and the buyer wants to buy at as low a price as he can. That happens even in a nationalised industry, except that the buyer has no chance of getting it at the lower price. That is why the independents were put on to the Films Council. The noble Earl the Chairman of Committees is one. I was sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, slurred over what was the view of the independents.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, may I intervene to say that the noble Viscount was right in his figure of four. Including myself, it was four independents in favour of the 33⅓ per cent., and one against.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I think the noble Viscount is less than his usual courteous self in saying that I attempted to slur over anything. I never slur over anything in your Lordships' House.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: When the noble Lord reads his speech, I think he will see that he inadvertently gave that impression. I certainly withdraw any such suggestion. But I do say that the

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noble Lord should have been given that information perfectly clearly by the Department. What is more, I say that that is vital information for Parliament to have in deciding this matter, because upon whose judgment would you naturally rely? Not upon the two conflicting parties, if I may so call them, but upon the judgment of the independents who are put there just because they are wholly independent and can exercise an independent and judicial opinion. We now know that so far as the independents were concerned, four of them were in favour of the 33⅓ per cent. quota and one was against. On the face of that we can say, and, indeed, we must say, that the President of the Board of Trade has completely disregarded the considered opinion of the independent members of the Film Council. I should have thought that after their recent experience the Board of Trade would be wise to fix a lower quota which would carry the good will of the exhibitors and encourage the production of good films.
I want to add one other thing. I have spoken of the importance of the co-operation of the exhibitors. There is another co-operation which is equally desirable, and that is the co-operation of the American film industry. I cannot but agree with the criticism in another place that the handling of the American industry has been singularly inept. I had a good deal to do with the American industry when I was preparing and piloting the original Bill. Quite naturally, there was opposition initially. They would much rather not have had a quota Bill at all. But there is one thing about all my discussions with them—I was always absolutely frank as to what was my intention. When it was clear that the legislation would go through and that it would be reasonable in its terms and in its administration, then, in fairness, I must say that I had a large measure of help and co-operation from the American industry.
Looking at the situation to-day, I cannot resist the conclusion that the combination of the way in which these American negotiations have been handled and the excessive quota has had, and will continue to have, two results, both of them injurious to British film production. In the first place, British films
916
are obstructed to-day in the United States. I am afraid there is no doubt about that. In the second place, American producers of films are not using their blocked sterling to produce here to anything like the extent they could. I regret that situation. I do not say that there are not faults on both sides, but the sooner it is remedied the better. What is the result? We must accept this Order because if we do not the position will be still worse. But I do hope that the Board of Trade will learn from experience and be more realistic, and if at any time they come to Parliament with revised legislation or amended Orders which are more in tune with reality, I am sure they will find Parliament only too anxious to help.
3.56 p.m.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I will detain your Lordships for only a few moments in order to say something on the Scottish aspect of this Order. When the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, started he began to apolise for the 40 per cent. quota he had to produce. I was under the impression that he was going on to apologise for it not being lower, because he will of course remember that on February 1 of this year he himself said:
"But the sad story is that to-day the British film industry cannot even satisfy that quota, still less exceed it in any progressive measure."
I was hoping that he was going to apologise that the new quota is to be as high as 40 per cent. because, as my noble friend Lord Swinton has said, it is quite impossible for a very large number of producers to fulfil the Order. I shall not go further into that argument because the noble Viscount has dealt with it already. I would point out that under a 40 per cent. quota, with two cinemas changing their programme twice a week—which is not uncommon in Scotland—eightyfour British first-features would be required. As the noble Lord, Cord Lucas, says, there will be eighty produced for this next year, so it is obvious from the start that a considerable number of producers will not be able even to attempt to fulfil the Order.
Your Lordships may remember that over a year ago the quota was 22½ per cent. At that time all the studios were working, and the pictures were good, because they had more time to make good pictures. This year we have had

917
seventy odd pictures made, with the result that we have had quantity before quality, and our producers have been obliged to make some very moderate pictures. When this Order came up before, I protested to your Lordships that there were films which we would be compelled to have in Scotland which were totally unsuitable for Scotland, and which were made in England for England. I have been making inquiries, and I will enumerate a few of the British films which we have been ordered to, exhibit in Scotland—I use the word "we," but I need hardly say that I have nothing whatever to do with the film business. The names are as follows: Saraband for Dead Lovers, Anna Karenina, Mine Own Executioner, London Belongs To Me, It's Hard To Be Good, Easy Money, Esther Waters and Third Time Lucky. I have no doubt they were very popular in England, but I can assure your Lordships that they were an absolute flop in Scotland. Now we have been ordered to exhibit The Bad Lord Byron and Warning To Wantons. Neither of these films has any great appeal to either the Highlands or the Lowlands of Scotland, but the Order in London has ordained that those who go to the films will have to see them.
Now let me say one word about a person who has not so far been mentioned, and that is the poor consumer. We hear a great deal about the producer and the exhibitor, but the person with whom I, for my part, am concerned is the consumer. In the country districts in Scotland, and probably in England—certainly in Scotland—the only means of entertainment is really the films. The wife of the farmer or the farm labourer goes into the local town or village to do her shopping, and her one entertainment of the week is to go to see the films. What we in Scotland like is an amusing or uplifting film—but surely Warning To Wantons would hardly be described as an uplifting film!
That is one aspect. There is another and I feel, as we all do North of the Border, very strongly about it. This Order is not to be applied in Northern Ireland. We know it is unsuitable for Scotland, but we have to take it; but Northern Ireland have been strong enough to resist this Order and be excluded from it. I should very much like
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to know what the Secretary of State for Scotland has been doing in not putting forward the Scottish case with greater cogency and ability than he has shown, so that we in Scotland might be excluded in the same way as Northern Ireland has been. Why should an Order be made for Glasgow which was not considered good enough for Belfast? I can assure your Lordships that in Scotland it is very much resented. Those of us who go to see films have to see films that we do not want. This Order is very much on the same lines as the Catering Wages Act. Your Lordships may remember that under the Catering Wages Act the smallest inn in the Orkneys, the smallest public house in the Shetlands, was put on exactly the same footing as the Ritz and the Carlton. Many prominent Labour protagonists in Scotland were equally opposed to it at the time, but we and the tourists have had to suffer under that Act. We seem to have no one who will put. Scotland's point of view as it should have been put. I hope that when next an Order of this nature is made, Scotland will be excluded in the same way as is Northern Ireland.
4.3 p.m.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, the present stringency in which the cinematograph industry finds itself has already caused a great deal of unemployment, and must have caused considerable suffering amongst technicians and others who cannot all readily be absorbed into other work. Against this background it is not surprising that some sections of the industry take the view that the present quota should not only be maintained but should even be increased. Other sections hold equally strongly that it should be reduced. I feel, therefore, that your Lordships may like me to tell you why I personally wish to see a reduction in the quota and, indeed, wish that the present Order had gone even further than it has.
There are two considerations that should always be borne in mind when considering the quota. One is that if it should, unfortunately, happen that a series of indifferent British films were made, and if it were possible by law to compel their exhibition, to do so would be the greatest possible disservice to the British film industry, because people would either give up going to see films

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altogether or, at any rate, would give up going to see British films. Another consideration is that exhibitors should, I think, have a reasonably wide choice of films from which to select their quota, partly because by no means every film is a success and partly because different films appeal to audiences in different parts of the country.
The present quota of 45 per cent.—one has to face the fact—followed a recommendation by the Films Council last year that it should be 50 per cent. I think there were two reasons for that recommendation. One was that, owing to illness and various other causes, few independent members of the Council were able to be present when the quota was under discussion—I do not mean to imply that they would necessarily all have voted for a lower figure, but I think that certainly many of them would have done so. The other consideration was that the recommendation was based on the producers' estimate of the number of films that could fairly be ranked as first-feature films which would be produced during the year. If their estimate had been realised, there would have been a wide enough choice for exhibitors; but in fact an appreciably smaller number of pictures were produced, and by no means all of them were successful box office propositions.
I do not want to be misunderstood. I do not mean to say that, compared with the total number of pictures produced in every country, the percentage of poor or mediocre British films is greater than that of indifferent American films. I do not think that is the case. But so many more American films are produced every year that exhibitors have a far wider choice when they are selecting them; and for some reason that I have never quite fathomed, audiences here seem to stand a bad American film more easily than a bad British film—and I think that that is even truer in Scotland. There have, of course, been one or two outstanding films made here during the last year. There was Hamlet which has been widely acclaimed, even, I think, by Hollywood, as the best film of the year. There was The Red Shoes and a number of other films that challenge comparison with anything from America. If anything like half of the films produced here had
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been of that quality, I doubt whether we should have had this crisis with which we are faced to-day. It is a fact, I fear, that many British films produced this year have been very disappointing.
I feel now, as I felt at the time, that last year we tried to go too far and too fast, and that the present quantity can be produced only at the expense of quality. I think the experience of this past year goes to show that the industry is not at present geared to support a high quota. When it is so geared, then our problems will largely disappear. There may be no need for a quota, because British films will sell themselves—and surely that must be our long-term aim: that British films should be able to stand on their own feet without need of protection. I am convinced that at present we should not try to set too high a numerical target, and that we should concentrate on quality. I do not think that the solution of our troubles lies in producing more quickly or more cheaply British films of the average type made this year. I do not feel the same difficulty that the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, feels about granting relief to a number of cinemas. If we set a lower target, so that all cinemas can comply with it, then the ones that show a much higher percentage tend to take the quota as being the maximum and not the minimum and, therefore, show far less than they could and should show. My view is that in this industry, in which competition varies so greatly, a sliding scale, as we have at present, is the fairest and best system. What I object to most is to have, not relief beforehand but defaults afterwards.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, may I make this clear? I have not the least objection to setting out in an Act of Parliament or an Order that the quota for certain houses in large places (whatever is the right way of describing them) shall be x per cent., and the quota for other houses shall be y per cent. I think that would be most reasonable. What I object to is passing a law which says to every cinema: "You shall show this and this," making them show cause why they should not.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: To have the whole sliding scale set out in an Act

921
would be extremely difficult, because conditions vary so tremendously. What will happen each year under the new procedure is that a sub-committee of the Films Council, composed of trade members, will go with a fine comb through the whole of the cinemas in the country and make their recommendations as to what the relief should be. That will have to be done every year for changing conditions. Therefore, it would be difficult to lay them all down in an Act of Parliament. The relief for the cinemas that change their programmes twice a week is difficult, because those cinemas cannot have relief if they belong to the large circuits or if they cannot show that there is competition from two other theatres in the same locality. So some hundreds of those cinemas which cannot be given relief under Section 4 of the Act will have to default, and it will be impossible in most of those cases to prosecute. I think that it is bad legislation to have hundreds of defaults. I hope that the Government may find it possible at sonic stage to introduce amending legislation on that point.
I do not feel that there is any easy or short way out of our difficulties. I wish I could think so. How far we succeed in surmounting them will depend largely on the work of the Film Finance Corporation. That is a most important body which will have to work with speed, vigour and imagination. They are bound to make some mistakes. Unfortunately, none of us of this world can find winners all the time, and in the cinema industry it is easy to pick losers. I hope that the Film Finance Corporation do make mistakes. They cannot be too much criticised because, if they do not make mistakes, they cannot make anything. I think that their success will depend largely upon their finding new talent, more script writers, more artists and more directors, because those will never be in too great supply in the cinema industry. I do not think it is a bad thing that the Corporation should have come into being with the sellers' market coming to an end; I believe their work will be based on a firmer foundation now that the public are much more critical about the film which they go to see. I am sure that we shall all wish the Corporation the very best of luck in their most difficult work. Those are the reasons for which I support this Order.
4.14 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I think this debate has been about as gloomy a debate as we have heard in your Lordships' House for a long time, and the words which fell from the noble Earl who has just sat down did nothing to relieve the gloom which surrounds the present situation of the film industry. It is a very sad state of affairs. The new Act was passed only last year, and our hopes were all high that it would herald the revival of the British film industry, but on almost the first occasion on which it is possible to change the Order, we are asked to reduce the quota by 5 per cent. Even so, we are not certain by exactly what percentage we are reducing the quota, because the noble Lord opposite, in moving the adoption of the Order, told us that the Board of Trade exemptions would reduce the quota to 33⅓ per cent., which was one of the figures originally recommended. It looks very much as if those exemptions will have to be used in even greater measure during the period for which this Order will be in force. If that is so, then we are rapidly approaching a position where the figures in the Order placed before Parliament have relatively little meaning. At the moment, however, the terms of the Order give us only the choice of either approving the figure of 45 per cent., which everybody knows from experience has proved too high, or taking the figure of 40 per cent. which, as the noble Lord opposite has said, will probably be 33⅓ per cent., and may even be something different. That is not a cheerful choice to place before your Lordships.
But, assuming that this Order is confirmed and we have no other choice, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said, how much nearer shall we be to establishing a better state of affairs in the cinema industry? Not very much nearer, I think, on the face of it. Whatever benefit may result from the Film Finance Corporation, it will not go all the way. The noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, had a good word to say for that Corporation. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, told us that they had already started to finance films. But there is a danger that the Film Finance Corporation will provide too easy money and, if they provide too easy money, we shall still be as far as ever we were from raising the standard of British films to

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the point where they can look after themselves. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, told us that the "angels" had fled, and the Film Finance Corporation have apparently stepped in where the angels are fearing to tread. I wonder. But, so far as I understand the position, there has never been any real difficulty in getting capital for a film which was likely to make a profit. The difficulty came when the "angels" retreated because it was found that, what with one thing and another, the rising costs of production and the uncertainty of the estimates which film producers and film directors gave, no one really knew whether the money he was investing in a film was going to make a profit or result in a loss. The traditions of the film producing industry are not strong enough to enable the investor to tell that. The mere fact of turning on the tap of Government money will not by itself alter that state of affairs. I think we ought to be clear about that.
On the other hand, Government money plus an artificially high quota may easily result in our continuing for the next six months in a fools' paradise, where British films are not better and not more economically produced, where unemployment in the film industry may be reduced, but artificially reduced, and where, sooner or later, someone in another place—for instance the Select Committee on National Expenditure—may in years to come point out that a great deal of money has been spent by the Film Finance Corporation and that we are still no nearer than we were to the point which we all wish to reach. We want the film industry to be economically sound, to stand on its own feet and to attract ordinary capital by its own merits. The real judge of that position is not the producer or the exhibitor, but the ordinary man or woman who goes to the pictures; they are the people who decide. If we are to have a sound film industry, it is impossible in the long run for anybody like the Board of Trade, the producers, the renters, the exhibitors or anybody else to try and keep the public content with something they do not want. In theory we might reach a state of affairs where the film industry was in such a bad condition that there was nothing to show the public but documentaries sponsored by the Ministry of Food and paid for by the
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Film Finance Corporation. Thank goodness we are a long way from that!
But let me return for a moment to the question of employment. Unemployment in the film industry is very bad, and I feel sorry for those people who have to deal with labour conditions in that industry. They must be having a bad time, and I only hope that they have not made it rather worse for themselves than it might have been by indulging in too many restrictive practices. I mention that matter because I think that, if any progress is to be made, this period of six months during which the Order will be in force must be used by everybody concerned in a real overhaul of the conditions of production by the two cinema unions, by the producers and by everybody else, not excepting the film directors. I venture to think that one of the troubles in the film industry at present is that there are not enough film directors and people of that sort sufficiently expert and experienced to be able to produce the films up to the numbers required by this quota at a figure which will show a profit, whether it is to the Finance Corporation or to the private investor.
My Lords, let us leave it there. If we pass this Order, let us see that the time is used in a real effort by all concerned to put the film industry on a proper economic basis. If we fail in our efforts in the face of the Americans, then no doubt a change will have to be made and we shall have to go back to the original plan—not a satisfactory one from every point of view but producing a much better state of affairs than the present—when films were made, not in spite of the Americans but sometimes because of them.
4.23 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, through the helpful contribution to the debate by the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, it will not be necessary for me to detain your Lordships for more than a minute or two, as he answered all the main points made by the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, regarding the eighty-four films for Scotland. I would, however, add one point: that the relief which the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, said could not be given, can be given by the last section, which relates

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to cases where it is not commercially practicable to fulfil the quota.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: May I ask the noble Lord one question: Has there ever been a prosecution under this Order?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I do not know of one. Although I expected the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, to say almost what he did say, I think he was not quite fair to my right honourable friend, the President of the Board of Trade. The 45 per cent. quota was fixed by the Board of Trade after consultation with the producers and, as the noble Earl has said, after they had said that they could produce the films. So if we erred we erred in good company, and the reason for our erring was because we adopted the principle of consulting the industry and taking their advice. The noble Viscount asked: Why not have a draft Order? If a draft Order were prepared putting down proposals for an industry like the film industry, controversy would rage even more than it has done when no draft Order has been produced, and the whole thing would be be-devilled. I am sure that the noble Viscount and I, in our experience of industry and its troubles, have been accustomed to dealing with businesses where logic has more meaning than it has in the film industry. The noble Viscount should really take to heart what the noble Earl said. The fixing of quotas is a very difficult task. To take care of the circuits in the big towns a high quota must be fixed, and there is only one way to see that that is done. These circuits control a third of the seating capacity of the country in all the large towns, and when a quota is fixed to take care of that we have to make certain that the quota is not injurious to the smaller man. That is why relief is proposed—not by the escape clause but by Section 4 of the Act of 1948.
The noble Viscount wanted me to give an undertaking. I should have thought that what I have already said was a sufficient undertaking—namely, that I do not anticipate that there will be any fewer reservations in toto. I can give the noble Viscount only this undertaking: that every case will be reviewed on its merit. The noble Viscount also asked me about the renter's quota. The renter's quota was given up at the behest of the pro
926
ducers of the country because they thought that any films produced under compulsion would lose merit. It is impossible to reintroduce the renter's quota because of our obligations under the Geneva Agreement.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: This is really most important and has never before been said—that another of the things of which Geneva has deprived us is the power to restore the renter's quota. I think this is the first time that that has been said in Parliament.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My instructions are that the Geneva Agreement on tariffs and trade would prevent us from reimposing the renter's quota.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: For how long? This is very important. We have had many discussions on Geneva, and to my knowledge—the Leader of the House knows that august document nearly as well as I do—this is the first time that it has ever been announced in either House of Parliament that by the Geneva Convention we have fettered our power to continue the renter's quota. If the noble Lord cannot say now, perhaps if I put down a Question I could be told specifically whether we are bound; if so, by what instrument; in what circumstances we were so bound, and for how long we will remain bound.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount. If he will do that, I will endeavour to obtain fuller instructions. I do not want, and I am sure the noble Viscount does not want, to raise the whole position of the American Dollar Agreement, but in passing I think I can say that if that were done away with (and here I think the noble Viscount will agree with me) it would not do the British producer any good. I will take great notice of what the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, has said. I will look at it and examine it. I think I had better leave the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, to the tender mercies of my noble friend Lord Morrison—who perhaps will undertake to produce a realistic film, such as, London Belongs to Scotland—and beg all noble Lords who come from Scotland to see the film A Warning to Wantons. If they did that I am sure it would give us a very great deal of pleasure!
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ROADS BILL
4.28 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1 [Schemes for provision of special roads]:
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved to leave out Clause 1. The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that during the Committee stage of this Bill we on this side sought to insert in the Schedule of the Bill certain words to make it clear that all who might be affected by any scheme in connection with the construction of special roads, and who might desire to object, should be fully informed about the scheme in ample time. From the Government Benches it was contended that that would not be feasible, and that the Amendment, if accepted, would interfere with planning. We therefore withdrew the Amendment, and I am now moving the deletion of Clause 1 in the hope that we may hear from the noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill to-day exactly how the Ministry of Transport proceed in making these schemes, and orders under schemes, and how the interests of the parties likely to be affected are safeguarded by the procedure adopted by the Ministry. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 1.—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord has explained why at this late stage he has moved this Amendment. I am pleased to respond to what he has said by making a considered statement on the procedure for making a scheme authorising the provision of a special road, which will be made under this Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament. Before a proposed scheme can be formulated, a great deal of preparatory work will be necessary, not only to determine the most suitable line of the proposed road but also to integrate the road proposals with town planning and schemes for industrial development. In the course of this work there will necessarily be close and early consultation with the various authorities and interests, private or public, in order to reconcile conflicting interests and generally to iron
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out, so far as possible, difficulties which would otherwise lead to objections and delay to the scheme at a later stage. Apart, therefore, from visual evidence of publication of discussions at council meetings, and the activities of surveying parties, which will portend that the proposals are in the air, a general idea of what is intended will be known to local interests long before proposals are ready for the scheme stage. It is in fact the usual practice as regards the Ministry's roads to sound the reaction of land owners whose property may be affected by trunk road proposals.
The first step in the formal procedure for making a scheme is the publication of a notice in at least one local newspaper (and usually two) circulating in the neighbourhood where the special road will be situated. The notice must also be published in the London Gazette, or the Edinburgh Gazette, or both, according to the location of the road. The notice will state the general effect of the scheme and give an address where a copy of the draft scheme, and a plan showing the proposed centre line of the road, can be inspected during the following three months by anyone interested. The notice will also specify a period of three months for lodging objections with the Minister. Copies of the published notice, with copies of the draft scheme and plan, must be sent to the local authorities through whose areas the special road will run, and also, where the scheme provides for the construction of a bridge over or tunnel under navigable waters, to any navigation authority, catchment board or river board concerned.
If objection is made by any of the authorities on whom notice is served within the period prescribed, and is not withdrawn, the Minister must hold a local inquiry. In other cases where objections are made and not withdrawn, the Minister is given discretion to dispense with a local inquiry if he is satisfied that, in the circumstances of the case, an inquiry is unnecessary. For trunk road order purposes it is the Department's practice to hold an inquiry wherever substantial objections are made. After considering any objections and the result of any inquiry which is held, the Minister may make or confirm (as the case may be) the scheme, either with or without modifications. This procedure is the same as that laid down for the making of trunk road

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orders. Experience over the past twelve years gives every reason to think that it works satisfactorily in practice, and that it brings proposals to the notice of all persons and bodies likely to wish to object. The inquiry proceedings are of an informal nature and the Minister's representatives are there to clarify points of detail, so far as they can at that stage.
In any event, however, details of proposed works for side road junctions with the special road, and alterations to side roads, will form the subject of a separate order under Clause 3 for the making of which the same procedure as set out above, as regards newspaper notices, service of notice on local authorities, navigation authorities and so on, and the lodging of objections and the holding of inquiries, must be followed. Interested persons can ascertain fairly closely the land which will be required for the scheme by inspecting the plan showing the centre line of the road and by asking questions at the inquiry. The procedure for acquiring the land, however, is separate and self-contained. If compulsory acquisition is necessary, the procedure of the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946, must be followed: this provides for the service of notices on all owners and tenants of the land, for the lodging of objections and the holding of a public inquiry if objections are not withdrawn. If the terms of purchase, including accommodation works, cannot be agreed, the matter is referable to arbitration under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919. I hope that that statement will be satisfactory to the noble Lord.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his clear and complete statement of the procedure which is followed. I am particularly glad to notice that it is the practice of the Ministry of Transport to have informal consultation with land owners before a scheme is propounded. I hope that they will always be extremely careful to consult small as well as great land owners because often those with a small interest in land have not such good facilities for informing themselves of these matters as have those with larger estates. Later on during this Report stage, my noble friend Lord Llewellin will be moving an Amendment which lays down that the proposed centre line of the
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road should be included in a scheme. When we couple that Amendment with the statement which the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, has just made, I think we may feel reasonably well satisfied that the interests of those affected by a scheme will be adequately safeguarded. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4:
Restriction on laying of mains, etc., in special roads
4.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the powers conferred on statutory undertakers by or under any enactment to lay down or erect any apparatus on, under or over any land shall not be exercisable in relation to any land comprised in the route of a special road except with the consent of the special road authority:
Provided that the consent of the special road authority shall not be required under this section for the laying down or erection by statutory undertakers of any apparatus by way of renewal of any apparatus for the time being vested in or belonging to them.
(5) Where the consent of a special road authority is required under this section in respect of apparatus to be laid down or erected otherwise than as mentioned in subsection (3) of this section, and the special road authority are a local highway authority, the statutory undertakers may appeal to the Minister against any refusal of that consent or any condition subject to which that consent is granted, and the Minister may make such order as he thinks fit.
4.38 p.m.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (1) to omit all words after "special road" (where that term first occurs) and to insert:
"but statutory undertakers may lay down or erect by way of renewal any apparatus laid down or erected before the special road was constructed or became a special road and for the time being vested in or belonging to them.
Provided that in the case of apparatus so laid down or erected by way of renewal—

(a) along the line of route of the special road the apparatus shall be laid down or erected elsewhere than ender or on the carriageway and shall be placed as far distant as practicable from the centre line of the special road; and

(b) across the route of the special road the apparatus shall except where laid down or erected on a bridge be placed in a subway or culvert under the special road."

The noble Earl said: The purpose of the two Amendments which appear in my name on the Marshalled List at this

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point is quite simple. We want to avoid the possibility of the road surface of these new special roads being pulled up by public undertakers in order to get pipes or cables, or whatever it may be, across the roads. These roads will probably be used more by heavy commercial traffic than by any other sort of traffic. We know that the cost of these roads will work out at something like £160,000 a mile. They will require extremely complicated and very special foundations, probably involving the use of reinforced concrete. The deeper the foundations go, the more breaking-up will take place, and the more difficult it will be to repair the surface.
I am pleading with the Government to say that when a public undertaking want to take a pipe or main across a road, they must take it either over or under. I can see no reason why an electric cable cannot be taken across a special road on a special bridge or, if it be a pipe, taken under the road by a special culvert. I cannot see any reason why the Government cannot accept this Amendment or, if this does not quite fit, something on these lines. Alternatively will they give the House a definite assurance that the Minister is not going to allow any undertaking to dig up the road surface to lay cables or drains? Digging up a special road would damage it to such an extent that we would never get it right afterwards.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 11, leave out from the first ("road") to the end of line 17, and insert the said new words.—(Earl Howe.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, as I have an Amendment later on dealing with exactly the same point, but in rather a different way, perhaps it would be convenient if we could discuss the two Amendments together and then, if it were thought that my solution was the better one, I would formally move my Amendment. I think we are all agreed that we want the minimum of pipes and cables under the carriageways of the special roads. We all deplore the sight of one statutory undertaking after another, coming along and digging up a bit of a road, so that when one has relaid the surface another comes along and digs it up again. It is alarming to think how much these special roads are to cost. When one thinks of the cost of the railways, even
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with stations, it is difficult to realise that the special roads will cost even more.
We are all agreed that the last thing we want is to have pipes or mains going down the length of the road. That is the silliest place to put them. In some cases it will be necessary for them to go across the road; we cannot have a special road from London to Bristol without some undertakings having to lay drains or cables across the road. The special road cannot be a concrete "curtain," preventing anything going from one side to the other. I do not like the wording of the Bill as drafted because in some cases, though possibly not many, the special road authority might be the undertaker responsible for these public utilities. In my view, the decision about the laying of pipes or mains should not be in the same hands. Therefore, my Amendment says that in no case shall this be done except with the consent of the Minister. It will be the Minister who is paying out most of the money and it is in his interest not to waste that money. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that the surface of a road is never the same once it has been dug up: it is always a patched-up affair. If my Amendment were acceptable to the Government, and we were told that only in the most exceptional cases would the Minister allow the apparatus of any statutory undertakers to run down the length of the road, and would allow their apparatus to cross it only when absolutely necessary—and then in a culvert or some other special means—and if we were assured that the decision would rest in the Minister's hands, I think that would go a long way to meet the point raised from this side of the House, upon which I believe we are all agreed.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, the impression I have after this brief discussion is that there is very little between any of us in this matter. The only difference between the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who has great experience of this kind of thing, and myself, is that he is not prepared to make any allowance for exceptional cases. He wants to close the door altogether. I do not know whether the noble Earl visualises a time when there might be a Minister of Transport who would be careless and allow these roads to be broken up, but I think he will agree that we are all very much opposed to that, not only because it is a stupid thing to do, but because it is extremely expensive. I gladly

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give an assurance that it will normally be the practice to insist that mains be put on the verges of special roads, if they must go along the road at all. The situation might well arise, however, when the circumstances leave no alternative to laying a main in the carriageway and when the importance of the apparatus and the balance of the national advantage compel exceptional departure from the general practice. The point I want to make is that there are exceptional cases.
Between the points of view of the noble Earl and myself, representing the Government, is interposed the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, the effect of which is that a local special road authority cannot themselves give permission for the laying of mains under the carriageway or motorway and that such permission must come from the Minister. That meets the point which the noble Earl has just argued, that there might be a local authority who were in effect giving themselves permission to break up a roadway. The noble Lord's Amendment has been considered by the Government, and I am authorised to say (I say it now, though the noble Lord has not yet moved his Amendment, in the hope that it will meet the point of the noble Earl, Lord Howe) that if the noble Earl is willing to withdraw his Amendment, when Lord Llewellin moves his Amendment I will accept it on behalf of the Government.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord very much for his answer, before I say anything specifically in reply to it I should like to draw attention to the fact that he has just made one announcement, for the first time. He has said that in special circumstances it might be necessary to take the apparatus of a public undertaking along a special road. Up to now, the discussion has been mainly about the works of public undertakers crossing the road. I am in a position of considerable difficulty in this matter. I feel certain that the present Ministry of Transport, and the staff of that Ministry, would rigidly set their face against anything of the sort. But the trouble is that Ministers come and go. We have now the right honourable gentleman Mr. Barnes, but to-morrow we might have (who shall I say?) Lord Llewellin or Lord De L'Isle and Dudley. I do not know whether I
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could trust them! I give that merely as an illustration of what I mean. Is it really necessary to allow these works to go along the road, as well as across it? The replies up to now have always been that where they go along the road they will be on the strip at the side.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I think the answer to that is, first, that no Minister of Transport will ever be quite suitable to the noble Earl. The principle which I have indicated would be abandoned only in a most exceptional case, as I endeavoured to say. The noble Earl, by his Amendment, shuts and locks the door and throws the key in the canal so that nobody can find it and reopen the door! The Government view is that we must be prepared at some time for an exceptional case, and that this must be provided for. If we incorporate the noble Earl's Amendment it will be impossible to deal with the exceptional case.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I understand that reply, although I regret it very much. I am very nervous about this point. The noble Lord must remember that the reply he has just given in the case of Clause 1 gives public, undertakers ample opportunity to know the exact line of a route, to object to it and to make all their proposals known in regard to it. Therefore, there will be little enough excuse for anything of this sort happening. However, having regard to what the noble Lord has said in relation to Lord Llewellin's Amendment, I beg leave to withdraw mine.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I desire to move in a slightly different form from that in which it appears on the Marshalled List the next Amendment in my name.
After the words "subway under" I would like to add "or bridge over." The purpose of this Amendment is the same as that of the previous one—to take the apparatus either over or under the road. There is no difficulty where it is an electric main or a water main. It can as easily be taken over a special road as under it in a culvert. I do not know whether the noble Lord has anything to say on this. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 18, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 32, and insert—
"(2) Statutory undertakers may with the consent of the special road authority lay down or erect apparatus along a line crossing the route of the special road provided that the apparatus is placed in a culvert or subway under or bridge over the special road and such consent may be given subject to conditions other than a condition requiring any payment to be made by the undertakers to the special road authority in respect of the exercise of the powers to the exercise of which the consent is given and that authority shall not withhold their consent under this section unless there are special reasons for doing so."
LORD MORRISON: My Lords I can add very little to what I have already said, because this covers a similar point to the Amendment with which we have just dealt. As a general rule, the object and the intention is not to allow the roadway to be broken up for this purpose. The mains need not necessarily go in a culvert or a subway under the road. For example, electricity cables might be slung on pylons over the road, and pipes might be carried over on bridges carrying side roads, where conveniently situated, or by an individual pipe bridge. In the vast generality of cases means will be found of taking mains across special roads suitable to the type of main, and to the circumstances of the case without interfering with the carriageway, but we cannot entirely rule out the possibility of there being an exceptional case. It is the same point.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (5) to leave out all words from and including "the statutory undertakers" down to "and", and to insert:
"then—

(a) if the apparatus is to be laid under the carriageway of the road, the authority shall not give their consent except with the approval of the Minister:

(b) if the consent of the authority is refused (otherwise than in consequence of the withholding of the Minister's approval under the foregoing paragraph) or is granted subject to conditions (other than conditions approved by the Minister under that paragraph) the statutory undertakers may appeal to the Minister."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have already given my reasons for this Amendment, and I formally beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 5, leave out from ("authority") to ("and") in line 7 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Llewellin.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, it may save time if I say that the Government accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this Amendment and the next are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 14, after ("Scotland") insert ("in subsection (4)").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 15, after ("of") insert ("that"); leave out ("(4)").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10 [Additional powers of acquiring land for special roads]:
LORD MORRISON LORD MORRISON moved to leave out subsection (1) and to insert in its place:
"(1) Subject to the provisions of this section the power of a special road authority to acquire land under section thirteen of the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, shall include power to acquire any land which in the opinion of the authority is required—

(a) for the improvement of an existing road which is included in the route of the special road but has not been transferred to the authority by an order under this Act;

(b) for the purposes of any order made in relation to the special road under section three of this Act; or

(c) for the provision of service stations or other buildings or facilities to be used in connection with the construction of the special road or the use or maintenance thereof.

(2) A special road authority shall not be enabled by virtue of this section to acquire otherwise than by agreement any land lying more than two hundred and twenty yards from the middle of the special road or, where the land is required for the construction, improvement or alteration of any other road, from the middle of that other road."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this rather long Amendment arises from the fact that in Committee the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, promised to consider the possibility of including an Amendment which would lay down that land beyond a certain distance from the centre of the road could not be acquired, even for the purposes of subsection (1) (b) of this clause. The effect of this Amendment is that, while retaining the purposes for

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which the land acquisition powers of subsection (1) (a) and (1) (b) may be used, it is made clear that the clause does not enable a special road authority to acquire, except by agreement, any land situated more than 220 yards from the middle of the special road, or, where the land is required for the construction or alteration of a side road, more than 220 yards from the middle of the side road. Land required for service stations and so on must also be within 220 yards from the middle of the special road, unless it is acquired by agreement.
The land acquisition powers of a special road authority will therefore differ from those of a highway authority for ordinary highway purposes under Section 13 of the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, only in two respects. First, land can be acquired for the construction or alteration of roads for which another authority is at the moment the highway authority—normally, of course, a highway authority can acquire land only for their own roads. Secondly, land can be acquired for service stations, and so on. I hope that noble Lords opposite will be prepared to agree to this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 6, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Morrison.)
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord opposite, and to his friends, for having found it possible to modify the very wide powers in the Bill as originally drafted and as it came to us from another place.
It seems to us reasonable that a limit should be set to the powers of acquisition of land by the Minister of Transport. Theoretically, at any rate, as the Bill was drafted he had powers to widen the North Road from the East Coast to the West Coast. We gratefully accept this Amendment, and tender our thanks to the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the last one. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 24, leave out ("as aforesaid by") and insert ("by virtue of this section by a special road authority being").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.59 p.m.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved to omit Clause 10. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House will recollect that in our former discussions on this Bill we on this side of the House were rather concerned about the provision of accommodation works so that land, and particularly agricultural land, should not be permanently adversely affected to a greater degree than was entirely necessary. It was conceded, I think, by the Government that a special road—a motorway—must form an almost impenetrable barrier across the countryside, because of the restrictions placed upon the user of the road by all except a limited class of vehicles. Therefore, in our view, it is highly important that adequate accommodation works should be provided in order, for example, that farmers may pass their implements as freely as possible front one side of the road to the other by means of bridges or creeps. The Government might pay adequate compensation to the owner or tenant of the land for the disturbance, but we were afraid that there might be neglect to provide adequate accommodation works, and thus the land, and particularly agricultural production, would permanently suffer. We attempted to limit that defect by moving in Committee an Amendment, which, however, did not prove acceptable to the Government. Therefore, at this stage I formally move the deletion of this clause, so that the Government may have an opportunity of stating their views upon the matter and informing us of the policy of the Ministry of Transport particularly in relation to compensation and accommodation works. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 10.—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I hope the very brief statement that I shall make will meet with the approval of the noble Lord opposite. It is the desire of the Minister of Transport that improvement of the highway system should be as little as possible at the expense of agricultural land, amenities or other land valuable to the community. To this end it is an established routine that there should be, in connection with proposals for highway improvement, especially improvement of the trunk road system, close consultation between the Ministry

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of Transport and the Ministries of Agriculture and of Town and Country Planning, both regionally and centrally. Moreover, it is the practice of the Ministry of Transport, when negotiating the acquisition of land, to agree to meet more or less of the total compensation due to owner or tenant in the form of such accommodation works—cattle creeps, drainage, fencing and so on—as may be reasonably required to minimise or eliminate any severance or injurious affection caused to the owner or tenant by the purchase of his land for road works. Negotiations with owners on this point have, in the Ministry's experience, nearly always proved satisfactory, and it is the experience of the Ministry that owners or tenants very rarely resort to the arbitration procedure on compensation that is available to them. There is no intention of departing from present practice in these respects, and, so far as can be foreseen, what has proved in the past a satisfactory policy for trunk roads will continue to be the best policy for trunk roads and for special roads and, as such, will continue to be followed.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, we are obliged to the noble Lord for that statement. What one has always to bear in mind is that if a farm is being severed and a lump sum in money is paid as compensation for that severance, that money may be used for any purpose. Such a payment may not be so effective for the continued proper cultivation of the land as making a proper creep or bridge, so that the farm buildings built for an acreage of that size may still cover that area of land, and there may be access from one side to another. I was glad to hear that the policy of the Ministry, in all practical cases, is to try and satisfy that claim for severance by providing those accommodation works. I think we all realise that that is the right way of doing it.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 12:
Provisions as to use of special roads
(2) The Minister may make regulations with respect to the use of special roads, and such regulations may, in particular—
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(a) regulate the manner in which and the conditions subject to which such roads may be used by traffic of the classes authorised in that behalf by a scheme under section one of this Act;

(b) authorise, or enable such authority as may be specified in the regulations to authorise, the use of such roads, on occasion or in emergency or for the purpose of crossing, or for the purpose of securing access to premises abutting on or adjacent to the roads, by traffic other than such traffic as aforesaid, or relax or enable any such authority as aforesaid to relax any prohibition or restriction imposed by the regulations.

EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (2) (b) after the first "roads" to insert:
"except roads authorised to be used by traffic of Class I or Class II or both of those classes."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is proposed in order that the special roads authorised by this Bill shall not be made more dangerous by having anything in the nature of level crossings for the use of general road traffic. As we see it, under Clause 12 (2) (b) it would be possible to permit the use of level crossings by all classes of traffic, including horse drawn vehicles and cattle. Many attempts have been made during previous stages of the Bill to try to clarify this position, but so far nothing very definite has been said. On the Committee stage, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, speaking for the Government, said:
"I can obtain more information about the sort of provision which highway authorities have in mind for inclusion in a regulation that they might make for this purpose, and that information I will obtain before the next stage of the Bill."
We want to know a little more about it. If level crossings for ordinary traffic are envisaged by this Bill, we think they will be just as dangerous as they would be on a railway, and just as much a nuisance in the general hold-up of traffic. In fact, they would very largely nullify the value of a special road. We hope that the Government will be able to tell us what they have in mind. If they do not mean to have level crossings for ordinary traffic, then there is no need for my Amendment. Perhaps the noble Lord will be able to tell us more. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 35, after ("roads") insert the said words.—(Earl Howe.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, first of all, may I tell the noble Earl why it is impossible to accept this Amendment? The reason is that it is too sweeping. As we are old friends, the noble Earl will forgive me for saying that, because he probably knows more about the motor industry and motor driving than most of us in your Lordships' House. The noble Earl may have heard the question which I have often heard: "How do you tell a good motor driver?" The answer is: "By the way in which he handles an emergency." Similarly, I would ask, "How do you know that an Act of Parliament is a good Act?" The answer is: "By the way in which it can be applied in an emergency."
Under the noble Earl's Amendment, the Act could not apply in an emergency at all. His proposal would make it impossible in any circumstances to divert other traffic on to the special road. The noble Earl knows that there may be exceptional circumstances—the road may be flooded. There may be a number of other uses which can be included in the words "on occasion." On occasion there may be a visit by a member of the Royal Family, and it may be necessary to divert the traffic. If this Amendment were accepted, it would be quite impossible to meet these exceptional emergencies which would arise. So far as I understand the Bill—and I have come into the discussions only during the later stages—at certain points it may be necessary to have what the noble Earl calls a crossing, in order to provide in exceptional cases an opportunity for people to cross. The noble Earl has to look ahead and realise that these motor roads may cover areas where the population is not very dense. It would be extraordinary, for instance, in the County of Sutherland, where the population is eight per square mile, if, because one person wanted to cross the road once a week to visit the grocers, we had to make a tunnel or a bridge to enable him to get across the road. It is because the noble Earl's Amendment would close the door entirely to these exceptional circumstances that I am unable to accept it.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I can quite see that, in special circumstances, side roads may be banned to some organisation which says, "Mosley shall not pass," and they may have a battle over it. In
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that case, it may be necessary to divert ordinary traffic on to special roads. When the noble Lord asks us to go to Sutherland and envisage a special road going all round Sutherland and the North of Scotland, is he really serious? As I understand it, the enormous expense of constructing these special roads will be justified only if it is possible to use them for heavy commercial traffic, and plenty of it. In those cases I am certain that they will pay their way.
But the noble Lord's reply raises in my mind a much more serious question. Are the Government really serious about the safety of the highway, or are they not? If they are serious, and particularly in regard to these special roads, they will see to it that neither pedestrian crossings nor crossings for ordinary traffic are allowed on them. What I suggest is that where a crossing has to be made, it should be taken either over the road or under it by some fly-over or fly-under junction. To have ordinary crossings for pedestrians and traffic will be to invite disaster, and there will be many casualties because the traffic will, be moving at a very high speed. The more exceptional the circumstances, the more will be the danger. I beg the noble Lord to consider the question of public safety. If people are to be allowed to emerge from a gap in the hedge or something of that kind, the next demand would be for some form of lights or other signals, and the whole idea of the special road would be nullified at once. Surely the noble Lord can give us a more practical answer than he has done so far. I do not regard it as being a good answer from the point of view of public safety, and I ask him to give the matter further consideration.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I can speak again only by leave of the House. The noble Lord's Amendment refers to the bringing of slow-moving traffic on to the roads, and his speech dealt with pedestrians. It will be a general rule that bridges or tunnels will be supplied for pedestrians. But, as I have said before, the Government have a duty to make provision in purely exceptional cases, and the same thing applies to this slow-moving traffic. There may be cases in which persons or slow-moving vehicles are obliged to come on to the road; there may be a fire at a petrol

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station, and an old-fashioned hand-propelled fire engine has to be brought on the road to deal with it. Under the noble Lord's Amendment this could not be done without breaking the law. The same thing applies to any road repair vehicle that may come on to the road to assist a vehicle that has broken down. These are the exceptional cases, and I must emphasise again that the Government desire to cover only exceptional cases which might arise.
EARL HOWE: I thank the noble Lord very much for having said what he has, but I regard his reply as most unsatisfactory. However, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.13 p.m.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (2) (b), to omit "on occasion or." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I move this Amendment in order that the Government may have an opportunity of explaining precisely what they mean by the words "on occasion or." According to my dictionary the word "occasion" means "in case of need; as opportunity offers; from time to time"; and each of those definitions envisages a different type of situation. So far as this Bill is concerned the occasion may differ; it may be children going to school, or a farmer going to market, or cows being driven, or a doctor taking a short cut to save time, or a shopkeeper on his daily round. If the noble Lord can give us an idea what he means by the words I have mentioned, I shall not—if his answer is satisfactory—press my Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 35, leave out ("on occasion or").—(Earl Howe.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, one of the purposes which Clause 12 (2) (b) is intended to cover is the use of a special road by vehicles not included in the authorised classes of traffic, which must occasionally use the road for road repair and maintenance purposes or for the repair of statutory undertakers' apparatus along the road. It may also be necessary to allow unauthorised traffic to use part of the special road on some rare or special occasions when the side roads are temporarily not available, for example,
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during a Royal visit. If the Amendment were made, these intentions would be defeated, and, therefore, I am unable to accept it.
EARL HOWE: I thank the noble Lord for what he has said, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 14 [Amendments of law relating to trunk roads]:
LORD MORRISON LORD MORRISON moved, in subsection (2) to omit "lying more than two hundred and twenty yards from the middle of the trunk road." The noble Lord said: My Lords, the next two Amendments are to bring Clause 14 (2) into line with the Amendment to Clause 10, page 11, line 6, which imposes a 220-yard limit on the land acquisition powers given by Clause 10. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 19, leave out from ("land") to ("which") in line 21.—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 26, at end insert:
"Provided that the Minister shall not be enabled by virtue of this section to acquire otherwise than by agreement any land lying more than two hundred and twenty yards from the middle of the trunk road or, where the land is required for the construction, improvement or alteration of any other road, from the middle of that other road."—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16 [Supplementary provisions as to procedure]:
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, after subsection (2), to insert:
"(3) Regulations made under this section shall provide for securing that the centre line of the special road authorised by any scheme under section one of this Act shall be indicated on a map on such scale as may be prescribed by the regulations."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, on Committee stage my noble friend Lord De L'Isle and Dudley moved an Amendment to the First Schedule which would have required the Ministry to give considerable information in regard to the proposed road at the Inquiry stage. I think it has been agreed between us that

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some of the information that he asked for would not have been available by the time we were ready to have the Inquiry—if there is to be one—under the First Schedule of this Bill. However, it seems to me that there certainly ought to be in the Bill a requirement that the centre line of the special road should be indicated on a map of a reasonable scale. Under the First Schedule of the Bill, a man has a right, if he wishes—as, indeed, have county and other authorities—to ask for the lines of the road to be deflected for some particular reason. It will help those people very much if they can at the outset know where the centre line is going to be. The Ministry must presumably have the information at the Inquiry stage, or else the special road authority will have it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 37, at end insert the proposed subsection.—(Lord Llewellin.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I am glad to be able to accept this Amendment, and to add that in practice this map will be appended to the draft scheme which paragraph I (b) of the First Schedule requires to be made available for inspection.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am much obliged to the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19:
Financial provisions
19.—(1) There shall be defrayed out of the Road Fund—

(a) all expenses incurred by the Minister with the approval of the Treasury under this Act in the construction, maintenance, repair or improvement of roads;

(b) any sums required by the Minister for making advances in respect of special roads under section eight of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909;

(c) such other expenses of the Minister under this Act (not being administrative expenses) as may be determined by the Minister with the consent of the Treasury.

EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that where the expense of the construction or improvement of a special road to be incurred by the Minister under paragraph (a) of this subsection and to be defrayed out of the Road Fund exceeds an estimated amount of £100,000 one-half of the sum approved by the Treasury for that purpose under that paragraph shall be raised by bor
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rowing on the security of the Road Fund and the approval of the Treasury to such borrowing shall be deemed to be sufficient authority for the expenditure by the Minister of the money so borrowed without further or other approval by the Treasury."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a point that I dealt with on Committee stage. In reply, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said that he would draw the Minister's attention to it and would give me an answer on Report stage. As the position stands at the moment, as I think is clear, the Minister has no power to borrow for the purposes of road construction. Therefore, some such wording as I have submitted in my Amendment would be required in order to empower the Minister to raise any portion of the amount. The reason why I put this point forward is probably obvious to your Lordships. Nothing is more pathetic than to see road works started and then stopped. A good instance of that, of which I am sure everybody must be aware, was the Western Avenue, which got a certain way, and then took another fifteen to twenty years before the work was completed. During all that time, the preliminary work which had been undertaken was, of course, deteriorating. Another instance, perhaps also known to your Lordships, is close to the village of Hand Cross where the work is still incomplete. There is another instance of the same sort on the Great North Road, not far from Catterick. There are plenty of these instances up and down the country.
I submit that, wherever road work is started and is not brought to completion, it means that the whole construction of the road is uneconomic and is not being considered on a business-like basis. Where work is started upon one of these special roads, even if money becomes tight, provided that the construction is partially financed by loan it will be possible to go ahead with the work on a reduced scale until money becomes available once more. I am certain that that is the way in which any business firm would approach it. I feel sure that the bulk of local authorities would wish to approach it in the same way. I hope that the noble Lord will give me one small crumb of comfort. He has just given the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, something out of the bag; perhaps he may try to give me a little too! I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 36, at end insert the said proviso.—(Earl Howe.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I can promise the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that before the proceedings on this Bill are over, he will get great comfort; but not on this Amendment. The effect of his Amendment would be that in the event of an emergency of any kind arising—for example, an economic blizzard striking this country, as happened in 1931; or in the event of war breaking out, or any first-class emergency occurring—everything else would be handicapped, hampered and held up, but motor roads, upon which the noble Earl, as we all know, is so keen, would still continue to be constructed. Obviously, that would be an impossible position, whatever Government might be in power. If something happened in the world which made it necessary for drastic changes to be effected, it would be unreasonable to expect that cuts and stoppages would be made in everything except motor roads. For that reason, the Government are unable to see why they should treat motor roads in an exceptional way and allow them to proceed to completion while other capital works, some of which might be of even greater national importance, had to be halted. It is for that reason that I regret we cannot accept this Amendment. The noble Earl has had an unlucky afternoon up to now, but I think I shall be able to oblige him in a moment.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, put in the way that the noble Lord has put it, my Amendment is absurd; but he has taken a very extreme illustration of that sort of thing. As to my crumb of comfort, what I would ask him is this. Can be not tell me that it will be the policy of the Department, so far as can be foreseen, with all special circumstances for the moment put on one side, not to leave one of these special roads in the condition in which the Western Avenue was left for so long—it does not matter whether a Tory Government or a Socialist Government are in power—to ensure that such roads are not left in an incomplete state, suffering deterioration the whole time? If the noble Lord could give me some assurance like that, I should be most grateful.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, any assurance that I could give would not be
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of much value. The assurance will have to be given by the electors generally.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I would not be content with that. I may tell the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that the Western Avenue was not deteriorating at all during those years. It had a perfectly good surface, but it did not go the whole way; that was the only difficulty. It was of the greatest possible use to me because it went just as far as my constituency—and no farther! Therefore, it was not largely used by other traffic. In those ways, I found it a most convenient road. On the other hand, we all agree that there were difficulties about finishing the road at that time, but I think that everybody would be at one with the noble Earl in saying that one ought not to start a road unless it was intended to finish it.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Third Schedule [Orders under Trunk Roads Act, 1946, to be treated as schemes under this Act]:
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this is where I pay my humble tribute and offer my congratulation to the noble Earl, Lord Howe. This Amendment ought not to be down in my name at all, but in his. This and the next three Amendments that I shall move are similar to those which were withdrawn on Committee stage by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on the understanding that Government Amendments to cover the point would be made on Report stage. The noble Earl's Amendments, as he had them, were incorrectly located. The Amendments add popular names to the official descriptions of the roads in the Third Schedule. The names adopted are those suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, except that "Haysgate to Crick" is used instead of "Chepstow to Crick." The latter description is misleading, since the road will not start near Chepstow. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 18, column 2, at end insert ("(Stevenage By-pass, County of Hertford)").—(Lord Morrison.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I have to thank the noble Lord very much for what he has said, and for the way he has met me in this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 21, column 2, at end insert ("(Severn Bridge, Counties of Gloucester and Monmouth)").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this again is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 31, column 2, at end insert ("(Haysgate to Crick, County of Monmouth)").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 34, column 2, at end insert ("(Newport By-pass, County of Monmouth)").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

WATER (SCOTLAND) BILL
5.29 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

WORCESTER GAS ORDER, 1949
Report from the special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Special Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that they have received and considered a Report from the Minister or Fuel and Power upon the Order; that a Petition against the Order has been presented by the Worcester Corporation; that they have heard the parties thereon; that they have considered an addition agreed by the Minister of Fuel and Power for the protection of the Worcester Corporation and
950
recommend its adoption to the House; and that having considered the points referred to in subsection (6) of Standing Order 216 they are of opinion that there ought not to be a further inquiry by a Select Committee: Read and ordered to lie on the Table.

OXFORD AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1949
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Special Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that they have received and considered a Report from the Minister of Fuel and Power upon the Order; that Petitions against the Order have been presented by the Chancellor, Masters and Scholars of the University of Oxford and the Oxford Corporation; that they have heard the parties thereon; and that having considered the points referred to in subsection (6) of Standing Order 216 they consider that the Order raises an important question of policy and principle, and they are of opinion that there ought to be a further inquiry by a Select Committee: Read and agreed to.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lords following be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Special Order—namely:

V. Allenby,

L. Saltoun,

L. Faringdon,

L. Amulree,

L. Kershaw (Chairman):

Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly.
House adjourned at half past five o'clock.