Sitting of 3 March 1949

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock

PRAYERS
The Clerk, at the Table, informed the House of the unavoidable absence, through indisposition, of Mr. SPEAKER from this day's Sitting:
Whereupon Major MILNER, The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS, proceeded to the Table and took the Chair as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOUSING

    London Boroughs
    Mr. Rogersasked the Minister of Health how many permanent houses have been completed in the boroughs of Kensington, Westminster, Chelsea, Hampstead and St. Marylebone, respectively.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): I would refer my hon. Friend to the Housing Return, 31st December, 1948.
    Mr. Rogers: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Kensington Tories are trying to blame their bad housing record on him, by alleging that he has been guilty of discrimination in favour of the Labour boroughs? Will he refute that slander?
    Mr. Bevan: I have not heard what individual Tories or anybody else have been saying about this but that is, of course, without any foundation whatsoever. There is no discrimination between one local authority and another, and I doubt very much whether the local authorities concerned will officially say there has been.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister agree that it takes much longer to build blocks of flats in built-up areas than to build houses on vacant sites? Will he also
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    agree that at least in the City of West minister there has been no lack of keenness to build flats?
    Mr. Bevan: Obviously it is more difficult to build blocks of flats, especially when there are difficulties about sites. There should be, of course, comparison of like with like. I am not aware myself of any resistance on the part of local authorities.

    Bombed Property, London
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Minister of Health how many applications he has received from the local authorities of London for permits to restore the bombed sites of London; and how many he has refused.
    Mr. Bevan: If the hon. and gallant Member will indicate what type of rebuilding he has in mind I will see what information is available.
    Sir T. Moore: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know of the vast blitzed areas in London, which constitute ugly and dreary gaps in our main thoroughfares? It is those to which I am referring.
    Mr.Bevan: All I can say is that the Question has a most delightful ambiguity. It was not possible for me to see to what, in fact, the hon. and gallant Member was referring. In so far as the rebuilding of cost of works houses is concerned, only about 300 cost of works houses above £5,000 now remain to be rebuilt. I am considering what facilities to give for their rebuilding.
    Sir T.Moore: Has the right hon. Gentleman read my Question, in which I have asked about applications "for permits to restore the bombed sites of London "—in other words, to put buildings on the bombed sites—and so give some greeting to our visitors in the Festival of Britain?
    Mr. Bevan: With all respect, a person does not restore a bombed site. The only thing which can be referred to, as far as I am concerned, is the rebuilding of cost of works houses.
    Sir T.Moore: No.
    Mr. Bevan:Yes. The hon. and gallant Member must address his Questions about other matters to other Ministers.

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    I am concerned primarily with those houses. I have replied that there are only 300 cost of works houses to be rebuilt above the £5,000 limit and that I am now considering what steps can be taken to get them rebuilt.
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Health how many applications he has had from private individuals to rebuild or restore bombed homes in London; and how many he has refused.
    Mr. Bevan: For the statistics of rebuilt houses, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Housing Return. No figures are available as to the applications refused.
    Sir T. Moore: Would it not greatly facilitate the accommodation of the homeless people of this great city of ours if more speedy steps were taken to fill up the gaps in the streets through which we pass every day?
    Mr. Bevan: I have already answered the hon. and gallant Member on his previous Question. 25,316 houses have been rebuilt in England and Wales under licence.
    Sir T.Moore: We want more.
    Mr. Bevan: The first priority was given to "rebuilds" costing less than £3,000. The figure is now £5,000. The only remaining category are 300 above the £5,000 limit.

    Loans
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Health what is the total amount of advances made, to the last available date, under Section 6 of the Building Materials and Housing Act, 1945; by how many housing authorities advances have been made; and in respect of how many houses.
    Mr.Bevan: I regret that the information asked for is not available.
    Sir W.Smithers: May I ask the Minister whether, before these advances are made, permission is secured first from the Treasury, and what is the good of his making advances in view of the ever-depreciating value of the £ sterling?
    Mr. Bevan rose—
    Sir W.Smithers: Would the Minister mind sitting down? I have not finished.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member's supplementary question did not arise out of his original Question.

    Sutton and Cheam
    Mr. Sargoodasked the Minister of Health whether 148 Mulgrave Road, Sutton, Surrey, has been requisitioned for housing purposes by the local council; whether it is still unoccupied; how long has it been allowed to be unoccupied; and for how long the unoccupied part of 136 Mulgrave Road has remained untenanted.
    Mr.Bevan: No.148 Mulgrave Road is held under requisition for local authority housing and is now occupied by four families. As regards No.136 Mulgrave Road, there is a letting difficulty, and I am communicating with my hon. Friend about it.
    Mr. Sargood: Will my right hon. Friend say how long these requisitioned premises have been allowed to remain unoccupied?
    Mr. Bevan: I would ask my hon. Friend to await my communication. Then I think he will find that his supplementary questions are not necessary.
    Mr. Sargoodasked the Minister of Health why the number of families in the borough of Sutton and Cheam who are in need of housing accommodation is not available.
    Mr. Bevan: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Austin) on 20th January, of which I am sending him a copy.

    Rest Centres, London
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Health how many families are resident in London County Council rest centres; what is the present average family weekly payment; what is the increased average family weekly payment now demanded by the London County Council on behalf of his Department; and what new circumstances warrant this increase.
    Mr. Bevan: The number of families in residence at present is 505. The average family weekly payment on the old basis of charge was, for the week ended 19th February, £2 7s. 10d. This is for full board and lodging. The new charges come into force this week, but, as the

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    L.C.C. have full discretion to reduce the amount of the increases to avoid hardship in individual cases, it is not yet possible to calculate the new average weekly charge. The reason for the increase is that the old charges were too low in relation to the cost of running the centres.
    Mr. Piratin: Is it fair to attempt to impose on these people, or on any who are suffering such hardship, an economic rent, as the economic rent should not be imposed on them unless they have some say in how the expenditure is incurred and there is much evidence to show that the expenditure is unwarrantable? It is not really fair, so will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter?
    Mr. Bevan: There is no attempt to charge an economic rent, but the losses on these centres are exceedingly heavy. I think the hon. Member ought to wait the result of the rebates, when he will know whether the new charges are in fact very hard to bear.
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: Do the numbers my right hon. Friend has given include those at present lodged in institutions?
    Mr. Bevan: No, in rest centres.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Spectacles
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Minister of Health whether patients attending eye hospitals are restricted in their choice of optician to the contractor for the hospital from which their prescription was issued.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir.
    Mr. Draysonasked the Minister of Health whether any emergency system exists for supplying spectacles immediately to users where the loss or breakage of these renders them unable to carry on their normal occupation.
    Mr. Bevan: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) on 24th February.
    Mr. Drayson: Is the Minister aware that there are people who are anxious to have their spectacles repaired immediately and there seems to be a great deal of delay?
    Mr. Bevan: I am trying to arrange for ophthalmic opticians to give priority to cases of special urgency. I do not want to have a rigid scheme, because that would only give rise to a lot of form filling and unnecessary delays. I am hoping to work out a voluntary arrangement.

    Heanor Hospital (Amenities Fund)
    Mr. Oliverasked the Minister of Health on what authority the auditors of the Heanor Hospital accounts demand to audit the accounts of a local amenities fund which is promoted by an outside body and maintained wholly by voluntary contributions, the hospital being only one of the beneficiaries; and if he will make it clear to all would be contributors that these voluntary funds form no part of the financial structure for the maintenance of the hospital service.
    Mr. Bevan: The funds of the local amenities committee included sums received by the hospital management committee. As these sums are held on trust by the hospital management committee it was the duty of my auditor to see that they were properly brought to account. When gifts are made direct to the amenities fund, the auditor is not concerned.
    Mr. Oliver: Could my right hon. Friend say whether there is an obligation on the part of his auditors to audit accounts which are no concern of the Ministry? I appreciate what my right hon. Friend says in his answer, that the allocations which go to the Ministry ought to be audited, but not the other funds.
    Mr. Bevan: These funds are entrusted to the local hospital management committees and, therefore, ought to be audited. Surely there can be no objection to an audit?
    Mr. Oliver: No, but these are independent funds created by bodies altogether outside the hospital.
    Mr. Bevan: But the only interest is where the funds that are collected by an amenities committee are handed over to a hospital management committee. In such a case the funds, should be audited, and I can see no objection whatever to a proper audit of accounts.
    Mr. Oliver: But the Minister must be under a misapprehension. This is a separate fund, of which the hospital is only one of the beneficiaries.
    Mr. Bevan: I think my hon. Friend had better read my reply, and then he will see that the point is covered. It is only in respect of the fact that amenities funds are entrusted to a hospital management committee that the question of audit arises.

    Aliens (Leaflet)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Health by what authority he issued N.H.S. leaflet, No. 2.
    Mr. Bevan: By the authority of the National Health Service Act, 1946, and in performance of the duty imposed upon me by that Act.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I ask the Minister whether he really has authority from this House to issue this leaflet to all aliens who arrive in this country and to offer them free health services, including dentures and spectacles; and is he aware that many aliens are taking advantage of these facilities at the expense of the British taxpayer—
    Mr. Bevan rose—
    Sir W. Smithers: Wait a moment—and is he aware that French doctors, to quote one case of which I have knowledge, are losers by this practice?
    Mr. Bevan: The answer to the hon. Member is what I have already given him in my reply: I am discharging the duties imposed upon me by the Act of Parliament. The aliens who receive these leaflets are not those who are on short holiday visits but those who acquire registration cards. The leaflets are being held for distribution amongst seamen who may not have seen the original leaflets describing the facilities under the Act. They are obtainable from information bureaux. The new leaflet is more up-to-date than was the original leaflet and I do not want to waste public money by reproducing unnecessary leaflets.
    Sir W. Smithers: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Registered Doctors
    Mr. Keenanasked the Minister of Health the total number of doctors registered with the National Health Service in the first six months from 5th July last, or nearest date; and what are the average salaries earned by doctors concerned in that period.
    Mr. Bevan: The total number of general practitioners on the medical list at 5th July was 18,165. Six hundred and sixty-one other practitioners have been admitted since then and approximately the same number have left for a variety of reasons. I have no information as to the average salaries earned by doctors in that period.
    Mr. Keenan: Am I justified in concluding that these doctors are now receiving much greater remuneration than before the Act came into force?
    Mr. Bevan: I must see how the average turns out before I am able to reply to that question. Certain payments are, of course, made to doctors outside the National Health Service Act.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Can the Minister say whether payments have been made to doctors for all midwifery and temporary residence cases which they have treated?
    Mr. Bevan: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put that question down I will try to obtain the information.
    Mr. Tolley: Can the Minister give to the House the percentage figures of doctors already in the scheme compared with the number who are entitled to join it, and is he satisfied that the number of medical practitioners in Britain is sufficient to meet the needs of the extra demands made upon them by the National Health scheme?
    Mr. Bevan: The two supplementary questions, of course, go substantially outside the original Question. There are more general practitioners taking part in the administration than we estimated for at the beginning. There is, of course, a general overall shortage. Perhaps there is a shortage of doctors in some places and a surplus in other places. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] There is a surplus of doctors in some places and, as they redistribute themselves, there ought to be adequate doctors for all.

    Hearing Aids
    Mr. Championasked the Minister of Health if within the Health Service, there is provision made for any form of appeal from the decision of a doctor not to recommend a hearing aid.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir. On treatment the specialist's clinical judgment must be final.
    Mr. Champion: Do I understand the Minister to say that there is no appeal and that a doctor's opinion virtually will condemn a man to deafness for life in the event of that opinion being against the man?
    Mr. Bevan: It is not the specialist who condemns the patient to deafness; it is nature. What we have provided for is that a person who has something wrong with his hearing goes first of all to a G.P. He then has what he never had before: the opportunity of seeing a specialist at a hospital and a proper otologist. He then is examined. If a specialist says that a hearing aid is of no use to him it is hardly conceivable that there ought to be an appeal against that decision. It is not a judicial matter.
    Sir W. Smithers: Does the Minister really mean to say that before the National Health Service Act came into force people could not go to a hospital and get free treatment?
    Mr. Bevan: The answer is to be found in the distribution of the Medresco Aids. A very large number of people are now having for the first time the opportunity of an aural aid and, therefore, of getting their hearing tested.

    Dentures
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Health if he will name the persons who are inquiring into the delay in the supply of false teeth; whether they will consult organisations representing independent technicians; and whether they will reconsider the proposals in the minority report of the Teviot Committee.
    Mr. Bevan: I am not aware of any special inquiry into delay in the supply of false teeth and the second and third parts of the Question do not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister say what he meant only last week by referring to those who are inquiring into this matter? May I also ask him this as the Teviot Committee reported that we should not have enough dentists for 20 years, and as there was a minority report that dental mechanics ought to be used independently by the Health Service, how does he propose to overcome, except by consultation, what appears to be a deadlock?
    Mr. Bevan: The inquiry into the matter referred to is an inquiry into the time which it takes dentists to perform certain operations in order to bring about a revision, if necessary, of the scales of remuneration. As to the supply of dentists, the dental schools are full and we are doing our very best to give them additional facilities.

    Hospital Schemes, Birmingham
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Minister of Health if, in view of his request for reductions in the estimates for Regional Hospital Boards, 1949–50, he will keep in view the high standard of hospital administration in Birmingham and the various schemes in process for expansion and development, and will consider representations from the Regional Hospital Board on the limits within which economies can be effected.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir.
    Sir P. Hannon: While I thank the Minister for his reply may I ask are we to assume that in the administration of this country's hospitals our medical service will always take precedence?
    Mr. Bevan: I do not know whether the hon. Member has the permission of his Party to make that request.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Is not this a direct attempt to slash our hospital services?
    Hon. Members: Oh.
    Mr. Dumpleton: Does my right hon. Friend agree, while, if need be, acknowledging the high standard of administration in Birmingham, that there are some areas with a legacy from the past of a low standard of administration, whose estimates should be reduced least, and will there be some elasticity in this matter and not a flat-rate reduction over the whole country?
    Mr. Bevan: It is not a flat-rate reduction, but a reduction which takes into account the hospital needs of each particular area.

    Medicine Bottles
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the high cost involved in the issuing of new bottles with every prescription dispensed by chemists, he will devise a scheme which will encourage the public to return used bottles.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir, and discussions are taking place with representatives of the pharmaceutical organisations.

    Physiotherapy, Spilsby
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Health why it is not considered feasible to establish facilities for physiotherapy at Spilsby, Lincolnshire.
    Mr. Bevan: Shortage of trained staff makes it impossible at present to provide physiotherapy for out-patients at every hospital.
    Commander Maitland: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the very high cost of sending quite a large number of patients who need this treatment to Boston to get it there? Will he take the very earliest opportunity of providing facilities at Spilsby?
    Mr. Bevan: There is a shortage of physiotherapists at the moment and that is a limiting factor.
    Sir Ian Fraser: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider using private practitioners, especially ex-Service men in their own homes, instead of clinics?
    Mr. Bevan: I think the hon. Member is to see me towards the end of the month on a deputation on this matter and perhaps he will await that interview.

    COMMUNITY CENTRES AGED PEOPLE)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the rapidly growing demand among aged people for recreation and social facilities such as community centres; and whether he will introduce legislation to grant powers to local authorities to provide such amenities.
    Mr. Bevan: In view of the existing powers of local authorities, including those recently conferred by the National Assistance Act, I do not think further legislation on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend is necessary.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that local authorities have power to farm out this work of establishing social centers, but that they have not the power to establish and control the centers themselves? Will he, in the new Bill, confer powers upon local authorities to do this work rather than to farm it out?
    Mr. Bevan: I think my hon. Friend will find that the powers conferred upon local authorities are fairly wide, but if the local authorities find any difficulty. I wish he would let me know.
    Mr. Awbery: Are they wide enough to establish these centers for the old age pensioners who are now demanding them in all the cities?
    Mr. Bevan: I would like to see what is the precise proposal before I can say whether it comes within the Statute.

    VOLUNTARY WELFARE SERVICES
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that public support of voluntary organisations for the welfare of the blind and other handicapped persons is being adversely affected by his recent pronouncement regarding hospital collections; and if he will make it clear that the State does not defray the cost of this welfare work.
    Mr. Bevan: My pronouncement referred solely to hospitals in the National Health Service. The National Assistance Act fully recognises the valuable work of the voluntary bodies referred to and I am glad to take this opportunity of correcting any impression that they are no longer playing an effective part in the provision of welfare services.
    Mr. Evans: Will my right hon. Friend also make it clear that the social security services cannot possibly function without the voluntary welfare services, which depend very largely on the goodwill of the public for voluntary funds? Will he also make it perfectly clear that blind and deaf persons are not necessarily sick persons?
    Mr. Bevan: I have always, elsewhere—and I do. so with great pleasure here—expressed the view that in my opinion the voluntary organisations are the only means by which effective assistance can be given to handicapped classes of all kinds and I therefore very much endorse what my hon. Friend has said.

  EDUCATION

    University Scholarships
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Education if he has considered the communication sent to him from the Secretary to the Governors of the Archbishop Sandy's Fund for the education of children and young people in the Hawks-head, North Lancashire, area, asking for approval of a scheme for university scholarships; and when he will be able to determine the matter.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): A large number of proposals for schemes have accumulated since the beginning of the war and only in special circumstances can priority be given to any particular case. Moreover, the proposals for this foundation included the provision of facilities for a community center and youth work as well as for other educational benefits and the powers to make schemes for those purposes have only recently been acquired by the Ministry. I am, however, prepared to give prior consideration to this case and I am informing the governors of that fact.
    Sir I. Fraser: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman, may I ask if he can spare the staff to expedite these schemes generally, because much money is being sterilised, instead of being used for educational purposes?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, but it was only in this last year that we got power to do this and we are taking the cases as well as we can in the order in which they come.
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Minister of Education how many applications have been received up to the present from persons anxious to take advantage of the State-aided university scholarships awards for students of mature age; how many of such applications have been
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    accepted; and in which universities these scholarships are tenable.
    Mr. Tomlinson: As the answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Skinnard: While thanking my right hon. Friend, may I ask if he is satisfied that the amount of publicity necessary for the full use of these facilities is being given?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, I am quite satisfied.
    Following is the information:

    1947

    1948

    Number of Applications

    …

    135

    169

    Number of Awards

    …

    19

    19

    Universities at which Awards are held:

    Oxford

    …

    …

    …

    8

    6

    Cambridge

    …

    …

    …

    2

    3

    London

    …

    …

    …

    4

    2

    Bristol

    …

    …

    …

    1

    —

    Manchester

    …

    …

    …

    1

    —

    Nottingham

    …

    …

    …

    2

    —

    Liverpool

    …

    …

    …

    1

    —

    Durham

    …

    …

    …

    —

    1

    Swansea

    …

    …

    …

    —

    l

    19

    13*

    *Note.—Five of the awards in 1948 were postponed and one was not accepted.

    School Medical Officers
    Mr. Keenanasked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to maintain the school medical services, arising from the inability of the local authorities to secure medical officers.
    Mr. Tomlinson: No local education authority has reported to me any difficulty in securing school medical officers.
    Mr. Keenan: I cannot give my right hon. Friend particulars, but it has been put to me that such is the case and that all local authorities are a little apprehensive about their ability to get medical officers because of the changed circumstances in the medical profession.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I think my hon. Friend is confusing this with the difficulties we are having in regard to school dentists, into which we are inquiring at the moment. If he will let me have particulars in regard to school medical officers, I will go into the matter.

    Denominational Teaching (Complaints)
    Professor Gruffyddasked the Minister of Education whether he has considered a number of complaints regarding the action of the City of Oxford Education Authority in providing facilities for denominational education in the High School; whether he is aware that there is a church hall next door to the school where such teaching could be given; and whether he is satisfied that this case should be dealt with under the proviso to Section 26 of the Education Act, 1944.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am aware of these complaints, which are being investigated.
    Professor Gruffydd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this action will be taken as a precedent by the whole country and does he accept the interpretation of the proviso given clearly in the White Paper 6492?
    Mr. Tomlinson: That is the reason for the investigation.

    Harvest Work (Children)
    Mr. Goochasked the Minister of Education if he will make a statement regarding the employment of children in agriculture this year.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I shall shortly be sending a circular to local education authorities indicating that it will again be necessary to ask for the help of older school children in gathering the country's crops, though not, I hope, to the same extent as last year.
    Mr. Gooch: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing opposition on the part of local education authorities to the continuance of the employment of school children on the land, and will he give a guarantee that this is the last year in which the practice will be continued?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I cannot possibly give a guarantee that this will be the last year, but I am just as anxious as local education authorities to dispense with the services of school children in this connection as soon as possible.
    Mr. Ralph Morley: Will my right hon. Friend consult the Minister of Agriculture to see if this work can be done by machinery, instead of by child labour?
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    Was not this a wartime emergency measure? Why should it be considered in times of peace?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have consulted the Minister of Agriculture and, wherever possible, machinery is used to assist in this work. It is true that this was a wartime measure, but I would point out that for all practical purposes the same conditions obtain now in regard to gathering in the crops as obtained in wartime.

    Managerial Training (Engineering)
    Sir P. Hannonasked the Minister of Education if he has now considered proposals for the extension of training in management in technical colleges and schools with special reference to the engineering industry; and if training, with this object in view, will be encouraged in the technical departments of secondary schools.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir. A scheme for the issue of certificates and diplomas in management studies has been drawn up by my Department in co-operation with the British Institute of Management. The scheme closely follows the recommendations of the Urwick Committee, and I hope that it will be acceptable to the engineering industry. I do not think specific training for management would be appropriate in the curricula of secondary schools.
    Sir P. Hannon: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask if he will keep in contact with the Institution of Production Engineers and the Institution of Management Engineers, both of whom are anxious about this matter?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, we are in touch with them through the Technical Committee.

    U.N.E.S.C.O.
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education how many chairmen of committees or sub-committees of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation were British subjects in December, 1947, and December, 1948, respectively.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Three in each year.
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education on how many

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    days in 1947, 1948 and 1949, respectively, senior officials of his Department were absent from this country on duties connected with the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.
    Mr. Tomlinson: One or more administrative officers of my Department of the rank of Assistant Secretary or above were abroad on such duties on 80 days in 1947, 82 days in 1948, and eight days so far this year.
    Commander Maitland: Is it not a fact that the Permanent Secretary and these other important officials have been absent for a considerable time? Is it not very bad for education in this country, which is going through a very difficult period, that these very important officials should have been absent all this time?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is true that the Permanent Secretary was there, as he happens to be a member of the Executive Board. Time and again in this House we have heard criticism of U.N.E.S.C.O., and if we are to make a contribution which is worth while it is essential that someone of standing should be there from this country.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: Can my right hon. Friend assure us that he is satisfied that the absence of this official was justified by the results obtained, and when shall we have an opportunity of hearing about them in this House?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is always difficult to say whether the absence of an individual is justified. I would say that the contribution made by the officials from my Department has been second to none so far as U.N.E.S.C.O. is concerned. If there is any credit to be awarded to U.N.E.S.C.O. I think it belongs to this country.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Will the Minister say whether the Permanent Secretary was there in his capacity as a representative of the right hon. Gentleman's Department or in a personal capacity, as no civil servant is allowed to be a member of the Executive Board of U.N.E.S.C.O.?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The figures I have given account for the days that official was there both in his personal capacity and his other capacity. Although he may not be there as an official when he
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    is attending the Executive Board, he is still an official of my Department when he is there.

  BASUTOLAND

    Ritual Murders
    Sir Richard Aclandasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he intends to send a judicial or other commission of inquiry to Basutoland to investigate the general situation which has led, amongst other things, to a number of ritual murders.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Philip Noel- Baker): I agree with my hon. Friend that an inquiry into the sociological and other causes of ritual murders in Basutoland is now required, and I am, in fact, already considering with the High Commissioner how this can best be done. As at present advised, I am inclined to doubt whether a judicial or other large and formal commission of inquiry would be the wisest plan.
    Mr. Driberg: When my right hon. Friend says that, will he bear in mind the fact that some men are apparently under sentence of death and awaiting execution?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes. There are other Questions about that on the Order Paper.

    Chieftains' Appeal
    Sir R. Aclandasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what steps he is taking to forward the appeal of the representative gathering of Basutoland Chieftains to the United Nations or to make sure that they know of the alternative means by which any grievances which they allege may he considered.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: I have not so far received any such appeal from the Chieftains of Basutoland. I think the native authorities in the territory are well aware that any appeals or grievances may be sent to me.

    Accused Persons (Appeals)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many prisoners awaiting the hearing of appeals have been held in prison

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    in Basutoland for more than six months; whether he is aware that an accused person in a recent case had been imprisoned for over two years and under sentence of death for 14 months; and what changes in the methods of sending appeals to the Privy Council are proposed to remedy such conditions.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: The High Commissioner reports that 19 prisoners at present under sentence of death have been held in prison for more than six months. I much regret the long period for which one prisoner has been confined; it has been due to the delays which an appeal to the Privy Council inevitably involves at present. Rules have now been drawn up to expedite the hearing of appeals to the Privy Council from Colonial Territories and my hon. Friend may be assured that every step possible is taken to avoid unnecessary delay.
    Mr. Skinnard: Would my right hon. Friend consider the establishment of a court of appeal in Basutoland itself, as that might obviate these long delays in trials.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes. If another Question which is on the Order Paper today had been called, I should already have said that I am now consulting with the High Commissioner as to what can be done about providing a court of appeal.

    INDIA (MURDERED BRITISH SUBJECTS)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement on the murder by Communists of three European British subjects near Calcutta.
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what representations he has made to the Indian authorities regarding the loss of four British lives in the recent attack on a factory near Calcutta; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: On 26th February, three British members, and one AngloIndian member, of the staff of Jessop's Engineering Works at Dum Dum, were killed by armed assailants. Three other British members were assaulted and
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    injured. On that day, attacks were simultaneously made at three points by small armed gangs, with the apparent object of seizing arms at the Airport and munitions factory. The attack on Jessop's Works is thought to have been a diversion to cover the other two. In the pursuit of the raiders by the police, a number of arrests were made but some members of the police were killed. The Prime Minister of India has said that the arrested men belong to the Revolutionary Communist Party of India.
    I deeply regret this tragic event, and the House would wish me to express our sympathy with the relatives of those who lost their lives. But I am glad to assure the hon. Members that, so far as we can tell, no anti-British significance should be attached to the attacks. Our representatives in India have, of course, maintained the closest contact with the authorities throughout. There have been no further disturbances, and the situation is at present quiet.
    Mr. Gammans: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is true or not that these three unfortunate men were thrown alive into a furnace? Further, is he satisfied that this was not in any sense an attack on Europeans, and that no special precautions need be asked for to protect Europeans?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid that I cannot confirm what the hon. Member says as to how the men died; I am not informed. As to the second point, I think that there was no anti-British significance in these attacks. Our High Commissioner is quite clear on the point. Thirdly, the responsibility for protecting British subjects in India lies, of course, with the Indian authorities, who are fully alive to it, and have done their best, and who, as I have said, already suffered fatal casualties among their police in these affrays.
    Colonel Hutchison: Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself in any way that the protective measures will in fact be sufficient? He has told us that effective measures are being applied. Is he satisfied that they will be sufficient? Further, while compensation is a poor recompense, has any offer of compensation been made?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: The question of responsibility must first be looked into.

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    I do not think that it can possibly be held that there was any negligence in any way. These were attacks planned against the Government, the authorities and the public order of India, planned, as it is believed by the Indian Prime Minister, by the Communists—carefully planned and a moment chosen when the police were holding sports in Calcutta. It is very difficult to lay blame upon anybody for what occurred.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the last remark of the right hon. Gentleman about the Communists, may I ask if it is not the case that these raiders, while they may have used a particularly high-sounding name, have no association whatever with the Communist Party of India, and are completely repudiated by the Communist Party of India?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am prepared to accept the word of Pandit Nehru, and I think that his evidence is confirmed by that of events in Malaya and in many other parts of the world.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to give a reply to the second part of the question put by my hon. and gallant Friend as to the possibility of compensation for the families of these unfortunate men?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid that I cannot give any answer now. I will certainly look into the matter and let the hon. and gallant Member have a reply.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: While being in the fullest sympathy with the questions put, may I ask as a matter of information whether the internal affairs of a Dominion such as India, Canada or Australia, can properly be discussed across the Floor of this House.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I have been asked about what happened to British citizens, and it is perfectly right for me to answer about what has happened to people who are subjects of His Majesty in this country.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Newspaper, Congleton (Paper)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will reconsider his decision in the case
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    of Mr. Head, Editor of the "Congleton Chronicle" newspaper, who wishes to print his paper on a 305 square inch sheet as a tabloid, on the understanding that no more paper is used in so doing, in view of the fact that when Mr. Head placed an order for a new printing press which produces this sized page, there were no restrictions in force as to the size printed.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): It is my practice on such matters to seek the advice of the newspaper proprietors through their own rationing committee. I understand that they might be prepared to advise me that the "Congleton Chronicle" should have a page size of 305 sq. ins., but in this event it would necessarily cease to be a tabloid or small newspaper, the maximum size of which is limited to 250 sq. ins., and the maximum number of pages which the newspaper could print would therefore be reduced to that which is appropriate to large newspapers.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: As the matter has been under discussion for some time, will the Ministry try to reach an early decision? Is he aware that the only other similar case in this country is at Mansfield, that he will not be setting a precedent and that no additional paper will be required?
    Mr. Wilson: I will endeavour to bring it to a quick conclusion, but this matter has to be considered and gone into by the newspaper proprietors advisory committee.

    Iron and Steel (Exports)
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the President of the Board of Trade why Canada received in 1948 less than half the quantity of iron and steel, including railway tyres, etc., from this country as compared with 1938, whereas the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Sweden and Finland have received many times the 1938 volume.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The steel made available in 1948 to the Soviet Union, Sweden and Finland was in each case supplied in order to secure agreements necessary to safeguard essential supplies and our financial reserves establishing an approximate balance of overall trade. This did not, however, prevent us from sending Canada more steel (excluding tinplate) in

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    1948 than before the war, and the hon. Member will be glad to know that we hope to ship more steel to Canada in 1949 than to any other overseas market.

    Wool Control (Cost)
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the cost to the State of the Wool Control organisation in the year 1948; how much of this sum went in payment of wages and salaries; what is the contemplated cost to the State in the year 1949; and how much will be spent on salaries and wages.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The total administrative expenses of the Wool Control for the calendar year 1948 amounted to approximately £90,000, of which £60,000 was in respect of wages and salaries. For the calendar year 1949 the estimated total expenses are approximately £50,000, of which wages and salaries amount to £37,000.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Does not the President think, as the Wool Control after 1st April will have only two duties left to perform, duties which could be performed efficiently by the trades' associations, that he ought to do away with this unnecessary expenditure by doing away with the Wool Control?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir. I certainly could not do away with the Wool Control. I am trying all the time to reduce the burden of control in connection with the wool industry, and, I wish, as soon as I can, to get rid of all control.
    Sir I. Fraser: Does wool carry this burden, or does the taxpayer?
    Mr. Wilson: The taxpayer.
    Sir I. Fraser: Why?

    Monopolies Commission
    Mr. Leslie Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade what cases he has referred to the Monopolies Restrictive Practices Commission; and when he expects a report.
    Mr. H. Wilson: On 1st March six references were made to the Commission. The goods are:

    1.—(a) Electrical filament lamps, for illumination or otherwise; and (b) discharge lamps and fluorescent lamps, for illumination;

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    2. Instruments, appliances, equipment, apparatus, materials, and accessories (including artificial teeth), wholly or mainly used in dentistry;

    3. Insulated electric wires and cables;

    4. Machinery for the manufacture of matches;

    5. Matches;

    6. Rainwater goods, soil goods and miscellaneous builders' castings, made of cast iron.

    All the references were made under Sections 2 (1) (a) and 6 (1) (b) of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act. In the case of matches a reference was also made under Section 2 (1) (c). I am circulating the text of the references in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I cannot say when reports may be expected, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that these six references constitute a heavy programme of work which is likely to occupy the Commission for a considerable time.
    Mr. Hale: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer will be very welcome to many hon. Members on this side of the House, and will he also say whether it is the intention of the Government that the minutes of evidence and the reports should be published and made available when inquiries are completed?
    Mr. Wilson: I am sure that the announcement will be welcomed by hon. Members in all parts of the House in view of the support given to the Monopolies Act last year. I can certainly undertake that all the reports will be made available to the House, unless any of them should happen to contain anything which would be regarded as involving questions of security.
    Following are the details of the references:
    Whereas it appears to the Board of Trade that it is or may be the fact that conditions to which the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act, 1948, applies prevail as respects the supply of:

    (a) electrical filament lamps, for illumination or otherwise; and

    (b) discharge lamps and fluorescent lamps, for illumination.

    Now therefore, the Board in pursuance of Section 2 (1) of the Act hereby refer to the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission for investigation and report the matter of such supply.
    The Commission shall as respects such supply investigate and report on:

    (1) whether conditions to which the Act applies in fact prevail, and if so in what manner and to what extent;

    (2) the things which are done by the parties concerned as a result of, or for the purpose of preserving, those conditions; and

    (3) whether the conditions in question or all or any of the things done as aforesaid operate or may be expected to operate against the public interest.

    References in similar terms have also been made to the Commission relating to the supply of the following goods:

    (1) Instruments, appliances, equipment, apparatus, materials, and accessories (including artificial teeth), wholly or mainly used in dentistry;

    (2) Insulated electric wires and cables;

    (3) Machinery for the manufacture of matches;

    (4) Rainwater goods, soil goods and miscellaneous builders' castings, made of cast iron.

    A reference in similar terms has also been made relating to the supply of matches with the addition that exports of matches are also to be investigated.
    The terms of this reference are as follow:
    Whereas it appears to the Board of Trade that it is or may be the fact that conditions to which the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act, 1948, applies prevail as respects—

    (1) the supply of matches, and

    (2) exports of matches from the United Kingdom, either generally or to any particular market.

    Now, therefore, the Board in pursuance of Section 2 (1) of the Act hereby refer to the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission for investigation and report the matters of such supply and exports.
    The Commission shall as respects such supply and exports investigate and report on:

    (1) whether conditions to which the Act applies in fact prevail, and if so in what manner and to what extent;

    (2) the things which are done by the parties concerned as a result of, or for the purpose of preserving, those conditions; and

    (3) whether the conditions in question or all or any of the things done as aforesaid operate or may be expected to operate against the public interest.

    In this reference "matches" does not include Bengal lights.

    Paper Supplies (Elections)
    Mr. Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he yet contemplates any relaxation in the restrictions on the use of paper for Parliamentary and local government elections.
    Mr. H. Wilson: As I informed my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) on 18th January, control of the distribution and use of paper will be largely removed as from 6th March. Thereafter, there will be no restriction on the amount of paper which may be used for electioneering purposes, or generally by political parties, except in the case of newsprint or of paper used in the publication of any newspaper or periodical, in which cases the existing limitations are unaffected by the changes which are being introduced.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Factory Inspectors, Midland Area
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that there are only three factory inspectors available in the Coventry district to inspect 1,800 factories, he will increase this number, and so ensure that the provisions of the Factory Acts are complied with in all cases.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): My hon. Friend would seem to have been misinformed. Five inspectors, apart from the specialist staff, are available to carry out inspection work in the Coventry district, and I have no reason to believe that the district is not getting a fair share of the Department's attention.
    Mr. Edelman: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the information contained in the Question was supplied by his own Department; is he also aware that the number of inspectors is totally inadequate to supervise safety precautions in these factories, and will he increase the number of inspectors in order to reduce the number of accidents?
    Mr. Isaacs: It may be that my hon. Friend was told about the three inspectors who are actually located in this particular town, but the number available to them is five, and there is an additional specialist staff. We are in the process of increasing the staff. Over all, there

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    is not a sufficient number of factory inspectors in the service at the moment, and advertisements have been issued and people are being interviewed. It is not correct to say that inspectors can prevent accidents. They inspect premises as far as possible and do the best they can to see that all the recognised customs and rules are observed.
    Sir P. Hannon: Is not it a fact that both the management and the precautions against accidents are at a very high level in all the factories in that locality?
    Mr. Isaacs: I would not care to assent to or dissent from that without an opportunity of looking into the matter.
    Mr. Yates: Will the Minister bear in mind that throughout the Midlands there seems to be a considerable grievance over the lack of inspectors? In the City of Birmingham I understand that there are only 15 for 8,000 factories and quite a considerable number are owner-occupier factories.
    Mr. Isaacs: I have already stated that we are taking active steps to increase the inspectorate. It is not always possible to base the inspectorate upon the number of factories, because an inspector may see a factory, may pass it, and, with everybodys' consent, think there is no need to go back again. We cannot have inspectors walking into every factory every day.
    Captain Crookshank: Is not it a fact that the mere number of inspectors does not necessarily reduce the accidents and that there are a great many other factors concerned?
    Mr. Isaacs: I have already endeavoured to make the point that they do not reduce accidents, but they are able to advise people in the proper observance of established customs.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Anglo-Swiss Agreement
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the breaking off of trade negotiations by the Swiss Government, he will give favourable consideration to varying tourists' allowances in favour of soft currency countries.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury
    (Mr. Douglas Jay): As my hon. Friend will be aware, we have now concluded a satisfactory agreement with the Swiss Government. An announcement will be made very soon on the arrangements for holiday travel abroad in the travel year beginning 1st May.
    Mr. Scott-Elliot: While welcoming the agreement, which has been made since this Question was put on the Order Paper, may I ask whether the Chancellor subscribes to the suggestion that we should differentiate between hard and soft currency countries in order to encourage people to take their holidays in soft currency countries?
    Mr. Jay: The agreement with Switzerland, which, of course, is a hard currency country, already provides an absolute ceiling for the amount of Swiss francs to be spent in this way.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Does that agreement mean that there will be more foreign currency available for the treatment of people who cannot get treatment in this country for their condition, and who wish to go to Switzerland for their treatment?
    Mr. Jay: That is a separate question which has been answered several times already.

    Cable and Wireless Award (Interest)
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlainasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what rate of interest will be paid as from 1st January, 1947, on the portion of the Cable and Wireless award payable to non-governmental bodies, namely, £32,195,000.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): Three percent. per annum.
    Mr. Chamberlain: Can my hon. Friend say why, after this very lavish and extravagant award of £32 million, which has delighted the City, he should follow it up with a further award of £1,148,000 in interest after payment of tax, which has made the City delirious with joy?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Because it is in accordance with the Act. This interest goes back to 1st January, 1947.
    Mr. Chamberlain: Although it is in accordance with the Act the rate of interest was decided by the Treasury. Is not this wrong treatment of the national finances?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The rate of interest was decided by the Treasury in accordance with the terms of the Act.

    STATE INDUSTRY EMPLOYEES (ELECTIONS)
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will state the policy of the National Coal Board and the British Electricity Authority in relation to their officers and other employees who wish to offer themselves for election to the Commons House of Parliament and local authorities.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): I am assured by the National Coal Board and the British Electricity Authority that they fully accept the broad principles to which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred in a statement which he made on 1st May, 1947, in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Charles Smith).

  ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES

    Bristol
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will consider the removal of the Government restrictions which have prevented the laying of an electric cable in Hill Street, Bristol, to enable the inhabitants of that street to have electric light installed in their homes.
    Mr. Robens: No, Sir. As was explained to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) on 24th February, it is not at present possible to supply electricity to all who want it and priority must be given to industry, farms and new houses with no other installed means of lighting.
    Mr. Awbery: Is my right hon. Friend aware that people in this street, which contains 60 houses, made application for a cable in 1938; that they have been waiting for ten years; and that they have
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    also sent a petition to the local authority? Can my hon. Friend do something to expedite the laying of the cable?
    Mr. Robens: I am aware of those facts. I assure the hon. Gentleman that supply will be given as soon as practicable.
    Mr. Vane: Why does the Ministry persist in giving priority to new houses over houses where the inhabitants applied for a cable many years ago and are still waiting?
    Mr. Robens: It is rather important when one builds new houses that at least there should be some lighting in them.
    Mr. Vane: Why is it more important for new houses than for old houses? Why should people in the old house have to use an oil lamp while the new house is provided with electric lighting?
    Mr. Robens: At least the old house has got some form of lighting.

    Domestic Tariff, Glasgow
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the average increase for domestic user in the current electricity account, as compared with the price at the previous tariff for consumers in the City of Glasgow; and what part of the average increase is due to the surcharge.
    Mr. Robens: The fixing of prices for electricity in Glasgow is a matter for the South-West Scotland Electricity Board and detailed information about accounts is not in my hands. I understand the Chairman of the Board informed a deputation of the Glasgow Corporation that in the case of over 80 percent. of the domestic quarterly accounts issued in Glasgow up to the middle of February there has been a total increase of less than £1. It was further stated that a check of about 70,000 accounts showed that the average increase was 18s. 3d. of which 10s. 6d. is in respect of the winter surcharge. Over the nine months, following the surcharge period, these consumers will of course be entitled to a rebate of 0.1d. per unit.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of the fact that the surcharge is falling much more heavily on the consumer than the increased price, will not my hon. Friend agree that the

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    question of this surcharge might be considered again in order to abolish it for this area?
    Mr. Robens: No, I do not think so. If there is hardship occasioned to people served in Glasgow, it will be met by the representations made to the Board. We asked them to do something about making arrangements for the payment of accounts by instalments. This the Board have agreed to do, and consumers are able to take advantage of that.

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Distribution Costs
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will state in detail the increased distribution costs on coal which have necessitated the increase of 11d. per ton in the selling price; what are the margins of profit allowed to the wholesaler and the retailer; and what will be added to these margins by the increase of 11d. per ton in the selling price.
    Mr. Robens: The costs of the retail distribution of coal and coke are ascertained by a periodical review made by my Department from returns supplied by a representative cross-section of the trade. Adjustments in retail prices, where these are necessary, are based on the results. The latest review completed last year showed that the costs of distribution had increased, mainly due to increases in wages and transport costs. In the London area the merchants' average profit margin on retail sales had fallen to 2d. per ton and the recent increases of 11d. per ton in the price of coal and 1s. per ton in the price of boiler fuel are designed to bring the profit margin enjoyed by the average retailer up to 1s. a ton on retail sales of coal, boiler fuel and coke taken as a whole. The margin of profit of the wholesaler varies according to the service he renders and is not affected by these price increases.
    Mr. Piratin: While I should like to study that answer in HANSARD and follow it up subsequently, I should also like to ask the Minister whether it is not the case that the policy of the Government is to ask private enterprise and other organisations to reduce prices; and, if that is so, why in this case do the Government
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    themselves deliberately announce an increase of price at a time when they also want wages to be frozen?
    Mr. Robens: The hon. Gentleman's party is busily engaged in a campaign to increase wages. Increased wages are reflected in the prices of articles to the consumer.
    Mr. Gallacher: Would it not be possible to avoid these increases by making a cut in the compensation to the former coal owners?

    Redundant Staffs (Compensation)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether a scheme his yet been drawn up for the compensation of officials and staffs declared redundant since the nationalisation of the coal industry.
    Mr. Robens: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend approved the National Coal Board's scheme of compensation for redundant staff and officials on 5th February, 1949.
    Mr. Awbery: Are there still officials receiving salaries from the National Coal Board under agreements made with their former employers before the vesting date?
    Mr. Robens: I should require notice of a particular case.

  PETROL SUPPLIES

    Doctors
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that applications of country doctors for more petrol are being refused; and what steps he is taking to ensure that doctors have sufficient petrol to enable them to give proper care and attention to their patients.
    Mr. Robens: As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Drayson) on 10th February, regional petroleum officers have standing instructions to allow doctors sufficient petrol to meet their essential requirements. I am not aware that reasonable applications are being refused, but if the hon. Member will let me have details of any cases he has in mind, I shall be glad to review them.
    Mr. Macpherson: May I ask how regional petroleum officers can be expected to know the reasonable requirements of doctors; and, is it not plain that any economies must be made at the expense of the patient?
    Mr. Robens: Not at all. The regional petroleum officer has the advice of the medical liaison officer nominated by the British Medical Association.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the doctor allowed any priority over the ordinary user of petrol in his neighbourhood—as regards the patient he has to visit, for example?
    Mr. Robens: The standing instruction to our regional petroleum officers is not to set any limit at all to the amount of petrol a doctor requires in the legitimate work of looking after his patients. In that connection, we have the advice of a medical liaison officer appointed by the British Medical Association.

    Sports Officials
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether in connection with petrol for sports meetings and in particular football organisations, he will reconsider his decision and allow some petrol to enable the officials of the selection committees to attend meetings in connection with their duties.
    Mr. Robens: No, Sir. As I have already fully explained to the hon. Member, in my recent letter to him, we cannot make allowances to enable honorary officials of selection committees to attend meetings in connection with their duties.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is it not really all nonsense to suggest that we are so short of petrol that we cannot do something which is both just and commonsense in order to enable people to organise recreation which is vital in these times? Surely, the whole thing is absolutely fantastic.

    B.M.A. Liaison Officers
    Mr. N. Macphersonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what are the functions of British Medical Association liaison officers in relation to his Department; what payment is made by his Department in respect of those functions; and what is the estimated total cost to His Majesty's Treasury.
    Mr. Robens: The liaison officers appointed by the British Medical Asociation are available for consultation by the regional petroleum officer on any matter affecting an application by a doctor for an allowance of petrol; doctors themselves may also ask the medical liaison officer to support their application. The appointments are unpaid and no cost falls on the Treasury.
    Mr. Macpherson: Might I ask again how the medical liaison officer can be expected to know better than the doctor himself what the doctor requires; secondly, is it not very wrong that the Ministry of Fuel and Power should shift its responsibility in this regard to some other organisation?
    Mr. Robens: It seems to me that it is a good thing always to get the best advice one can. I should have thought that a medical liaison officer of the standing of those appointed by the B.M.A. should know something of doctors' requirements and, indeed, that he should be a very good adviser. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular cases in mind, I should be very glad to look at them and let him know the result of my inquiries.

    ALIENS (HUNGARIAN NATIONALS)
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) why he allows some Hungarian nationals and not others to visit this country for holiday purposes; and on what basis he reaches his decision;
    (2) what is the basis on which he decides whether or not to permit Hungarian nationals to take up permanent residence in this country;
    (3) if he will state the total number of Hungarian nationals that he has allowed to enter this country to take up permanent residence for each year from 1945 to the latest convenient date; the numbers that have been refused permission for the same period; and the same details concerning those Hungarian nationals who have asked for permission, to visit this country for holiday purposes.
    The Secretary of State for the Home, Department (Mr. Ede): Apart from one or two special exceptions, only those

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    Hungarian nationals who come within the scheme for the admission of distressed relatives are permitted to take up permanent residence in this country. Since the beginning of 1948 it has not been possible to admit to this country for holiday purposes Hungarian nationals who are resident in Hungary, since the Hungarian authorities have been unwilling to grant intending visitors passports enabling them to return to Hungary; but visits from Hungarian nationals resident in other countries are allowed provided that the visitor has the necessary re-entry permit. The numbers of Hungarian nationals admitted to this country under the distressed relatives scheme in 1946, 1947 and 1948 were 347, 75 and 19, respectively. The number of applications made under the scheme which have been refused and the number of applications for permission to visit this country for holiday purposes which have been granted and refused are not available.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is it not a fact that a number of the Hungarians who are allowed to live in this country came from Germany as displaced persons?
    Mr. Ede: I have no doubt that that may be so.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Churchill: May I ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has any statement to make on Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr.Herbert Morrison): Yes Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 7th March—report and Third Reading of the Landlord and Tenant(Rent Control) Bill.
Tuesday, 8th March—Supply (4th allotted Day):It is proposed to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on Navy
540
Estimates, 1949–50, and to consider Votes A, 1, 2, 4, 10, 11 and 13 and Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1948–49, in Committee.
Wednesday, 9th March.—Second Reading of the Superannuation Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution and of a Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means;
Committee and remaining stages of the British North America Bill;
Consideration of the Motion to approve the Draft Electricity (Staff Compensation) Regulations.
Thursday, 10th March.—Supply (5th allotted Day): It is proposed to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on Army Estimates, 1949–50, and to consider Votes A, 1, 2, 8 and 10 and Army Supplementary Estimate, 1948–49, in Committee.
Friday, 11th March.—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
Mr. Lipson: Can my right hon. Friend say when we may be able to discuss the promised Bill to provide National Parks?
Mr. Morrison: I cannot be certain, but the preparation of the Bill is making progress, and I do not think it will be very long now.
Mr. Nigel Birch: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the Chancellor will open his Budget? Will it be before Easter?
Mr. Morrison: I could not say today, but I shall keep it in mind for an early announcement.
Mr. Morrison: I could not say today, but I shall keep it in mind for an early announcement.
Mr. John Hynd: Can my right hon. Friend inform us whether we are likely to have an early opportunity to discuss the Report of the I.L.O. Conference at San Francisco, which has been published in Command Paper 7638?
Mr. Morrison: I should not think so. It is not particularly customary. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Isle of Wight?"] The Isle of Wight would not be in Order.

DEFENCE
The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): I beg to move,
"That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1949 (Command 7631)."
It is a sign of the seriousness of the times through which we are passing, that any pronouncement on defence by the Government at the present time is subjected by informed opinion of every shade to the most careful scrutiny and comment. That has already been the case since the White Paper was laid on 15th February. I would invite attention to the first paragraph of the White Paper, which states the three basic elements of the problems which face us in taking decisions on defence policy today. These are: long-term reconstruction; readiness for action in any sudden emergency; and meeting current world-wide commitments. None can be neglected and the Government's response has to have regard to them all. If it were otherwise, it would be quite unrealistic. It is a response based on the compelling necessities of the world today, and one which must command the support of all hon. Members who are concerned to safeguard the vital interests of our country.
In making any general survey of defence policy, there is inevitably a problem of selection in the time that is available. I hope, therefore, to receive the indulgence of the House if I concentrate only on some of the main issues before us, leaving other points, in which I know hon. Members are interested, to be taken up as may be convenient in one or other of the Service Estimates Debates which will be taking place shortly.
Since March, 1948, there have been several developments of the highest importance. In the field of collective defence there has been the signature of the Brussels Treaty and the creation of the defence organisation which is required under it. There has also been the initiation of the discussions now proceeding in Washington in regard to the North Atlantic area. With regard to our own Defence Services, the main developments have been the measures of re-equipment involving new production that we have put in hand following the emergency decisions announced in September last and the decision of Parliament embodied in the Bill passed in December last to
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restore, from now onwards, the period of service of those recruited for whole-time National Service to 18 months. All of these matters are of high consequence to our plans, and I must deal with each in turn.
I start with developments in the field of collective defence. As everybody knows, we have done our very best, not only as a Government but in the general attitude of our whole nation, to make the United Nations organisation effective, and it is certainly not the fault of the Government or of this country that we have been disappointed. But within the general scope of the principles of the United Nations, there is still room for organising collective security, which is contemplated by, for example, the provisions of Article 51 of the Charter. It is abundantly clear in the present world situation that we have to go on on this basis. It has always been our belief that we have to act collectively, because it is quite impossible to think in the world as it is today that we can plan effectively to secure the defence of one country alone. We have given practical expression to this view in the arrangements entered into with France and the Benelux countries.
The political significance of the signature of the Treaty of Brussels a year ago was recognised throughout the world. The signature of that Treaty—significant as it was—was but the first step in the process of building a strong and effective combination with our near neighbours to defend in common our Western heritage of law and liberty, while setting ourselves, also under the provisions of the Treaty, to develop those cultural and social bonds that form the basis of our common conceptions of the dignities of civilised life. It has been the work of the past year to take the necessary practical steps to give force and content to that association by the systematic building up of, the Western Union Defence Organisation. A great deal has been achieved in less than 12 months in that direction.
Some account of the organisation which has been set up will be found in paragraphs 14–22 of the White Paper, but I wish to describe more fully the work that we have done and are trying to do. The five Ministers of Defence have met on three occasions in the last nine months and we shall be meeting again shortly

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at The Hague. We have had the assistance of a very able international secretariat and staffs, and we have made considerable progress. At the first meeting in London last May, we established our Committee and approved the framework of the organisation by which the Western Union Chiefs of Staff would assist us in the field of strategic planning. This Western Union Chiefs of Staff Committee, which has been well served by the Military Committee, has dealt with a wide range of problems of common interest. In particular it evolved the plans for the creation of a nucleus Command Organisation which would be able in time of peace to plan effectively for the full co-operation under unified command of the Defence Forces of the Five Powers in Europe at the very outset of an emergency.
In Paris in September we set up this Western Union Command Organisation. The officers appointed to the posts then created are known to the House through the White Paper, and I should like to say how glad we were that Field-Marshal Montgomery was chosen for the position he occupies there after his already distinguished service. It should be made clear that the staff working for the Commanders-in-Chief Committee includes also senior Belgian, Dutch and Luxembourg officers. That the revolutionary nature of the new defence development in Europe should not have excited more comment is perhaps a sign of the times. It is now commonly recognised that the conditions of modern warfare do not permit us to think in terms of the strategy of individual countries. Accordingly, there must be a free association between like-minded powers and a readiness to pool their resources for common defence.
The organisation under Field-Marshal Montgomery has been established for some months and is studying the tactical problems of the defence of Western Europe and preparing plans for action in any sudden emergency. Its work is a clear indication of our will and purpose to stand four-square to the difficulties of the present international situation, and there is no doubt that its significance is fully recognised by our friends throughout the world. In his recent report on the National Military Establishment, Mr. Forrestal, the United States Secretary of
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Defense, indicated the importance which the United States attach to these developments, and has also indicated something which was repeated in very good terms by the Leader of the Opposition in his appeal to the country the other night that it was not only organisation that is required, but that it is the will and spirit of peoples determined to defend their liberties that is required.
At the same meeting in Paris, we also created the Western Union Military Supply Board to work in parallel with the Western Union Chiefs of Staff and to advise us on the supply problem which is the critical element in the defence preparedness of all the Powers concerned. Supply holds the key to the present situation and it is the duty of the Supply Board to advise on ways and means of providing weapons and equipment including the co-ordination of plans for the development of a balanced war potential. Assisted by their Supply Executive Committee, they have already made a comprehensive review of the defence production capacity of each of the five countries, of the possibilities of expansion and of the conditions which will have to be satisfied to fulfil those possibilities. This work will, among other things, show the extent to which Western Union production, after taking full account of all means of mutual self-help, can go towards providing the necessary equipment. This is of the utmost consequence in relation to any discussions which may take place with representatives of the United States on the method of putting into force any plans required for military aid to Western Europe. I should add that in the Supply Board, as in the Chiefs of Staff Committee, we have been glad to welcome Canadian and the United States officers who participate in the meetings as nonmembers. I am sure that their close association with the early growth of the organisation will be of great value when we come to further discussions as to what we need beyond our own capacity to supply.
But the Supply Board is not merely a planning organisation. Already it is arranging for the equipment of the air defence forces of Western Union. The co-ordinated plans for the air defence of Western Union evolved by the Western Union Chiefs of Staff organisation require the provision of fighter squadrons equipped with British jet fighters.

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Meteors or Vampires are already being supplied to France, Belgium and Holland. Further supplies will be made in 1949 and arrangements are well advanced for the manufacture of these types of aircraft under licence in France, Belgium and Holland. It is plain, however, that the exchange of military equipment in any quantity between the Five Powers is bound to raise financial problems of considerable magnitude and on this aspect of the matter the Committee of Defence Ministers is working in close consultation with the Finance Ministers of the Five Powers. It will be our aim as quickly as we can to work out a comprehensive scheme to cover all transactions that may be made in accordance with the plans submitted by the Supply Board and approved. In the present economic situation with each country having to face its special problems and its own different productive capacity, it is obvious that the solution of the problem before us will require the utmost understanding and goodwill.
Also on collective defence, the second matter to which I referred is the discussion now proceeding in Washington with the object of reaching a collective arrangement in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and to cover the North Atlantic area. I am quite certain that the House in the present stage of negotiations will not expect me to say a great deal now. Nevertheless, I think it will be agreed that the potential significance of the pact is so great that no general review of defence policy would be complete without some reference to it.
There are accordingly two aspects which I should like to mention briefly. The nations now taking part in the Washington discussions hold between them a very large proportion of the industrial resources of the world and cover more than 250 millions of population. The detailed wording of the draft Pact has been the subject of much recent comment, but I think the most significant aspect of the matter is the clear unity of aim of the nations concerned and the fact that such an agreement should be under negotiation at all. I think the importance of this development can best be illustrated by reflecting how different our thoughts would have been in 1939 had such a North Atlantic Pact as we now contemplate been in existence at that time. After
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the Pact is signed there are bound to be discussions between the countries concerned with reference to the distribution of responsibilities. These discussions must affect the long-term pattern of our own Defence Services and, until they are concluded, this factor in our forward planning must remain undetermined.
I turn now to the topic of equipment and production. Last September the Government decided in face of the deteriorating international situation to arrest the downward trend which had continued since the end of the war, and to arrange to accelerate the overhaul of stocks of war-time equipment and to step up new production in certain vital sectors. We finished the war with very large stocks of stores and equipment for all three Services, but since that time the Services have been living very largely on those accumulated stocks. A substantial proportion of these stocks have, of course, also been disposed of by sales, loans or gifts to Commonwealth or other friendly countries or by sales either for use or scrap through the appropriate disposals department, chiefly the Ministry of Supply and the process which has been followed has been inescapable. Vast quantities of accumulated stores, scattered as they were in many areas, could not, with any proper regard to economy, be preserved for future use by the Services. Much was stored in requisitioned or hired accommodation and a good part of it in the open. A large number of Service personnel was required to maintain it.
In settling the disposals policy it was clearly recognised that those items of equipment which took a long time to make and which might therefore, in the event of war present a bottleneck if production had to be restarted, should be retained in adequate quantity for reserve purposes. Moreover, it was clear that technical and scientific progress under the impetus of the war itself had been so rapid that much of the war-time equipment would become obsolescent and the possibility of its having further serviceable use was very much reduced. Stocks which were not of British manufacture and whose maintenance or replacement would involve hard currency expenditure for spares had also to be released. At the same time the Services very properly released to the civilian market goods which were in short supply and which

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could and did make a useful contribution towards economic recovery.
The charge has been made that the disposals policy of the Government was administered in a profligate and irresponsible manner. I deny that completely. I cannot enter into details of the levels at which we have determined Services reserve holdings, but I can say that in a very large number of items we hold today large reserves and we have already put in hand such measures as are required for their overhaul and reconditioning. I should like to give the House more information on this important subject in order to allay doubts and anxieties, but considerations of security prevent me. In general I can assure the House that we have adequate quantities of most important items of equipment which would have taken a long time to manufacture and shortage of which in the last war was the main brake on the speed with which we were able to deploy our fighting power. Nevertheless, there are deficiencies and, owing to the passage of time, some equipments in reserve, as I have indicated, now require overhaul and repair to make them fully serviceable. We are meeting some of the more essential of the deficiencies from new production and are undertaking a general overhaul where needed. This work constitutes a very fair proportion of our current production programme.
Then there is the question of reequipment—the replacement of existing types by newly developed designs. Designs are being constantly improved upon and it would be false policy to commit ourselves now to the production of weapons or vehicles in cases where types of markedly improved performance may perhaps be developed in the near future. Accordingly it is our policy to ensure a sufficient flow of new equipment to keep an adequate war potential for expansion in a sound and healthy condition. Existing types will be superseded gradually by newly developed designs, but that process is a continuous one and it is impossible to expect that new or improved equipments and weapons will be brought into full use immediately. The major re-equipment measures in the year ahead of us will relate to aircraft and associated equipment like radar. Some hundreds of additional jet fighter aircraft will be delivered during the year.
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I should like to indicate to the House the extent to which production, development and research bulks in the Defence budget. We shall be spending this year considerably more than £200 million on production. This sum represents an increase of more than £50 million over the Budget prepared last year and, bearing in mind our continuing economic difficulties, to attempt to demand a higher allocation in resources of men and money at the present time for arms production would not have been justified. Economic recovery and defence go hand in hand and the Services recognise this in determining the extent of the call which they feel they can make upon the nation.
Let me now turn to manpower policy. The review of our defence situation last summer led to the decision to arrest the rate of run-down of the Forces personnel. This was carried to its logical conclusion in December when the House agreed to the restoration of the 18 months Service period of the National Service man. This was generally recognised as necessary to enable the country to meet its commitments throughout the world. It is necessary to remember how heavy and widespread those commitments are. Let us think of the Far East and the greater disturbances going on there. We have to cover risks including Malaya and Hong Kong, by land, sea and air. We have to think of the difficult position in the Middle East and the Mediterranean and the Forces we have had to maintain there, and we have had to watch developments, as the House will have observed, in the last 12 months in East and West Africa and in places as far apart as Honduras and the extreme South.
Nearer home the tasks have become even heavier. There are the Forces of Occupation to be maintained in Germany, Austria and Trieste in international circumstances which have by no means improved in the last 12 months. Our commitments in Greece have to be shouldered. The Home Fleet and the Home Commands of the Army and Royal Air Force must be maintained. Men must be trained. The Service establishments for experimental and development work must be manned in order to keep the Forces abreast of modern progress in science and technology—progress which has never been more rapid than it is today.

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While dealing with the question of manpower I would like to pay a very special tribute to the troops who are operating at present in Malaya. This is an exceedingly difficult job. Their courage, skill and their determination, all of which they have displayed in their task of the gradual restoration of conditions of ordered government in that important territory, have been worthy of the highest traditions of the Services. The arrest of the spread of Communism in that area is of vital significance in the cold war, and our troops have adapted themselves to unusual circumstances with all that resource and good humour which are characteristic of the British Army.
The size and variety of the commitments to which I have referred have, I know, been mentioned many times before, but that does not make them any smaller to me. We have been part of a worldwide Commonwealth so long that we are often inclined to take certain things for granted. When British interests are threatened we take it for granted that they will be defended. I personally am very glad to think that this is so, because it would be a bad day for this country and the world at large if we ever felt less willing and ready to defend vital interests connected with our free way of life. The price of that readiness must ever be recognised as being heavy, but let me add that the price of not facing our commitments would be far heavier.
I should now like to say a word about this important question of National Service.
Mr. Scollan: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the point about manpower, I want to ask him whether this is the only country in the North Atlantic Pact which will have conscription, or whether conscription is going to be part of the North Atlantic Pact for all countries.
Mr. Alexander: There is compulsory National Service already in the countries associated with us in Western Union and even the United States of America have, at any rate, a very strong selective type of compulsory service. That is the situation.
It is the aim of His Majesty's Government that to the largest extent practicable the world-wide commitments which I have just described should be met by
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Regular Forces. We hope that as time goes on we shall get nearer to achieving that aim. At present, it is quite unavoidable to use numbers of National Service men to fill the gaps in the ranks of the Regular Forces. There is, however, a separate and equally vital reason for National Service. I refer to the provision of trained reserves. This remains, what it has been ever since National Service was introduced, a basic and vital requirement of national defence.
I should now like to turn to a matter which is perhaps more for the Minister of Labour and National Service than for me, but is of such interest to the country in this connection, that I ought to refer to it namely, the figures in connection with National Service. Hon. Members will have noticed that this year we are calling up 174,000 National Service men. The comment is often made that with an intake at this level the Services are absorbing only a proportion of the annual age group. The facts are interesting and important, and are worth mentioning, though I should make it clear that most of the figures I am about to give can only be somewhat approximate, on an estimated basis; but they have been revised as carefully as the Ministry can revise them at present.
We are at present calling up mainly men born in the year 1931. In that year there were 371,000 live male births. From 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. of this number are, in fact, not available on account of death since 1931, emigration, volunteering for the Forces and statutory exemptions. This brings the number available down to about 300,000. In addition there are deferments for apprentices and students, agriculture, coalmining and the
mercantile marine. These amount in all to 110,000 and bring the number available down to 190,000. Medical rejects, volunteers to the Services after registration, and wastage after registration bring the number down to 145,000 in the present year. To this total we must add the expiring deferments of 21,000 and so we are able to count, after every provision has been made in the current year, on 166,000.
This is rather less than the requirements for the year for call-up, but I am assured by the Minister of Labour that he does not expect to have any difficulty

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in arranging for the balance amounting to 8,000 men who will have become registered already during 1949, but some of whom in different circumstances might have been called up a few weeks later, perhaps even next year to be called up in 1949–50.
Mr. Frank Byers: How does the right hon. Gentleman account for the fact that 110,000 people are to be deferred in this one year when he has only accounted for 21,000 people whose deferments have expired? That seems to me to be a very big gap.
Mr. Alexander: I think that the hon. Member ought to address a detailed Question on that to the Minister of Labour. I have obtained these figures specially. Obviously, the rate at which deferments fall in will vary a great deal from year to year, and some of the deferments are likely to be for a long period, or even permanent, in such industries as mining or agriculture, compared with other industries. I have given the collective figures for the lot. Next year the number of expired deferments is bigger, and the annual total of men available will come to about 190,000. However, taking 1949 and 1950 together, and assuming that in the latter year the Service intake will be maintained at about the present level, it is doubtful whether any increase in the age of call-up will be necessary in 1950. In 1951 the number coming forward is slightly larger and the present expectation is that the age of call-up will rise to 18 years 6 months in that year.
It may be suggested—it has been to me from time to time—that the Government ought to be able to decide here and now what is to be the ultimate annual intake under National Service, and so to finalise the question of the age of call-up. It is, in fact, not practicable to do so. The ultimate size of the intake is inevitably linked with decisions on the ultimate pattern of the Defence Services—decisions which, as I have explained earlier, are bound to be affected by the regional security arrangements now being developed.
Mr. Rhys Davies: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the problem of the conscripts, may I ask him a question? America is, of course, in-
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volved in the whole problem of military service. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the American Government have decided not to call up any conscripts in February and March this year?
Mr. Alexander: I do not think that makes any difference to what I have been saying. They retain the basis of selective compulsory service, and will go on calling up those whom they find they actually need.
I should like to say a few words on the question of the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces. We place very great value on them. Indeed, they are very vital to our defence. I should like to say a word of great thanks to those who have already come forward in the Territorials, the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, and to pay special tribute to them for what they are doing. However, there is special need for these Forces to be increased, and I make a special appeal to all who feel they could now, at this period of time after the war—especially those who have had training in the Services, who could by their spirit and willingness serve their country—to come forward to help us to build up these Auxiliary Forces in the manner that we desire.
I now come to the question of recruitment for the Regular Forces—a matter which is vital to all our future plans. This has been the subject of much public comment. In so far as this comment arises from anxiety to see the rate of recruiting improve, I welcome it; but it seems to me that sometimes, perhaps, insufficient credit is given for what has been achieved since the war. I am quite sure those who have been Ministers in the past will know something of the difficulties. The fact that, although there has been such a high standard reached in plans for full employment and that we have not had the large pool of unemployed there usually is after a war, we have recruited for the three Services 250,000 Regulars since the war as compared with about 210,000 in the similar period after the First Great War, is an indication that there has been a great deal of fine voluntary loyal spirit in the nation. In spite of the economic circumstances, we have made very good progress indeed.
The series of broadcasts given by the Prime Minister and leading Members of

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the Government and Opposition gives some indication of the importance the Government attach to increasing the numbers in the Regular Forces, and I should like to say a special word of thanks to the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Liberal Party for the manner in which they have appealed for recruits in their recent broadcasts. It shows that, differ as we may upon many matters, including matters in connection with defence, on the vital question of recruitment to build up our Forces, at least we speak to the nation with one voice.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Would my right hon. Friend give us the figures of the results of those broadcasts?
Mr. Alexander: Not at this moment—certainly not. My hon. Friend ought to know that it is imposible to measure all the increase immediately as a result of a broadcast of a few days before. The whole campaign must be judged upon
general results. Inseparable from the problem of Regular recruitment, is the consideration of the adequacy of the present conditions of service. On that there has been a great deal of criticism. Had there been time, I could have said a great deal more on that subject.
I feel that the efforts which have been made by the Government since the war to improve conditions of pay have not been sufficiently recognised or properly valued. May I give one or two simple illustrations? Take, for example, the three-star married private. The amount of increase in general emoluments made by the present Government in two instalments has been as much as 17s. 3d. a week. A Group "A" R.A.F. sergeant has had increases in a similar period of as much as 38s. 6d. a week. When we turn to the officer ranks I know that there has been a great deal of complaint and that there have been considerable hardships in a period of rapid change and of repostings, especially to married officers. I must say that it does not help when, having obtained from the Treasury on behalf of the Services a special addition of £12 million last November for pay conditions, these are described, at the very time when we want to improve recruiting, as being derisory increases. I cannot accept that an average increase of £110 per annum in one increment to the marriage allowances of officers of 25 years
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of age and over can be regarded as a derisory improvement in their standards. [HON. MEMBERS: "Taxed."] So was every other increase given to every other person in the State. Every other person in the State of whatever class is liable to his proper share of taxation on his overall emoluments.
I do not regard it as helpful when these special improvements which the Government have made in the last two years are regarded as derisory; and when they could be used on every opportunity as showing how greatly conditions have been improved in the Services. Never in my lifetime—and I have taken an interest in the Services for many years—have the general conditions been so good with regard to pay and allowances for other ranks or for officers as it is under the general conditions of living today. They are certainly not to be compared with the old-time tradition of the Services, when it was hardly possible for anyone to become an officer and live in peace time and fulfil his official commitments, unless he had a considerable private income. That is no longer the position.
I would beg of hon. Members in all parts of the House to consider, in dealing with this overall problem, the advances that we have made and the very heavy and vital expenditure which we have to meet on improving equipment. It is no use to think that the problem of recruitment will be covered simply by "bidding up," all the time, pay and allowances. That is not the main reason for our not getting as large a number of recruits as we would desire.
Air-Commodore Harvey: Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not want to mislead the House or himself regarding the conditions and what the men really think of them? If they really think conditions of pay are bad, it is better for the Government to face up to it if we are to get recruits.
Mr. Alexander: All this agitation could be much better devoted to supporting the recruiting campaigns going on in the country during the last two years. I think that must not be overlooked. I would especially desire hon. and gallant Members opposite who have themselves served in the Forces overseas, to remember what the difficulties will be in commitments should ever their Government

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be returned again and should they have to meet the kind of conditions and commitments that we have to meet now and will still have to meet in connection with defence. They are making very extraordinary suggestions as to what can ultimately be borne in this respect.
There are other reasons which, I recognise, exist today and which interfere a good deal with the measure of recruitment that we should like to get; factors which bear hardly on the Service man and Service officer, and the Government are taking very vigorous steps to ensure their correction. I think that the most important of them all is the question of improving the married quarters. In paragraph 61 of the White Paper, some figures are given which will indicate the present programme of construction. In other connections, I have already stressed the limitations within which we must work, and I would remind the House that housing costs today are formidable. The Government are providing and are determined to provide accommodation of a better type than was provided before the war. For this reason and because of the general increase in the cost of building houses, the cost both of quarters and of barracks is bound to be high.
The demand for housing is, of course, a national problem and the provision of housing for the Services is as much a part of the national housing programme as for any other section of the community. The House must remember that there are many long-standing deficiencies in both barrack and housing accommodation which have been built up over the years for reasons of economy, and in view of the importance to the nation of building up the Regular Forces the Government regard the remedying of these deficiencies as a matter of urgent necessity. The Government are giving urgent consideration to any practical possibilities of expanding the present programme of housing and are making every effort to ensure the most rapid progress in these areas where the need is particularly acute. I ask the House to note the financial figures given in the White Paper on the programme as at present proposed; we shall require an expenditure of something like £16¾ million on barrack and housing accommodation combined.
Mr. Lipson: As a temporary expedient over a period of years, have the Government considered the provision of prefabricated married quarters?
Mr. Alexander: Yes, consideration has been given to that, but there are three things to understand. First, the Service Departments were certainly late in the years 1945–46 in getting in with a prepared programme. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That was the position when the party of the hon. Gentlemen opposite left office, and those of us who were in the Government at that period were pretty busy with a good many other plans, including the problem of demobilisation. We were late in starting, and the prefabricated houses were largely taken up for other purposes. Secondly, there is the problem now of how much aluminium and similar scarce materials from dollar countries can be supplied for that kind of construction. The third point is that the better and more permanent the houses which can be provided for the Forces, the greater the saving in the long-run.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything with regard to the employment of the men when they have left the Services? That is certainly a very big factor?
Mr. Alexander: I must apologise to the House if I constantly give way and thereby prolong the time of my speech. It is only because I am most anxious to meet the wishes of the House, but it will take time if the Debate is conducted in that way.
I was about to refer to the question of resettlement. We are doing our best to remove some of the difficulties which often come to men in middle-life because they have missed opportunities of getting ready for a new calling. We describe in paragraph 43 of the White Paper the progress which has been made in that direction by the Government in arranging for more and more opportunities to be provided. They have been worked out not only in the Government Departments but with the joint associations of employers and employees and in complete understanding with the trade union representatives. The Minister of Labour has set up a Departmental Committee of his own to work out details

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as a result of these joint consultations. The Civil Service is providing additional opportunities for vacancies for ex-Service men which will be in operation in the course of 1949.
We have already had approval in principle from the boards of the new nationalised industries supporting the case for giving further opportunities to Regulars who are suitable for the types of work carried out under those boards. Generally speaking, we are most anxious that the opportunities provided for men coming out of the Services should be as wide as possible. It has been suggested in some quarters that we should guarantee a Government job to every man who comes out of the Armed Forces. I think that at this stage that would be going too far, and would be a promise very difficult to keep.
Let me now say something about research and development. While attaching high importance to the improvement of conditions in the Forces in order that they may be fully efficient to use their weapons and equipment, the Government are fully alive to the vital importance of research. It was superior technical ability combined with the overwhelming industrial resources of ourselves and our Allies that helped us to victory in 1945. The need to maintain that technical superiority which was then built up is recognised on all sides, and in present circumstances it is the first priority in defence policy. There will this year be some increase in the financial provision for research and development, which reflects an improvement in the scientific manpower position and the bringing into use of new facilities.
The evolution of new weapons is a long-term project. When, three or four years ago, our defence scientists were able to take stock of the position, they had to choose between going all out for really big advances and a piecemeal improvement of existing equipment. I am quite sure that we chose right in setting on foot a long-term programme in research. If there were to be a war in the immediate future—which God forbid—the first campaign would no doubt be fought with the weapons that were in use during the last war; but we must also look further ahead, and the equipment we hope to have when our present projects begin to bear fruit will, in most fields, represent an outstanding advance
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on what we have now. We could not make this advance, however, if we devoted our main efforts to ensuring that the Services each year had something just a little bit better in equipment than a year ago. But it would be wrong to draw the deduction that there is nothing to show for the expenditure of the last three years, and in paragraph 58 of the White Paper I give some indication of the progress which has been made in a number of important fields.
I wish I were free to give the House more detailed information. Expenditure on research and development is now higher than it has ever been, and it is understandable that Members would like to have the evidence that it is being well spent. But there are grave dangers in giving too much information under these heads. The question of security has, I observe, been specially touched on by the Select Committee on Estimates in their Second Report, which appeared earlier this week. I should like here to pay tribute to the work of the Committee in this respect, and to assure them that their report will receive close study.
Although I cannot enter into detail with regard to this research progress, I can give the House some general idea of the policy. In the first place, the larger part of the expenditure was on development. In other words, most of the money is spent in translating results of research into experimental equipment, and in this way we support and greatly encourage engineering development of the highest type in industry. The results have not only been of benefit to the Fighting Services, but also indirectly of great value to industry as a whole. The success of much development work, for example, depends upon progress in metallurgy, and progress in that sphere is of enormous benefit to the engineering industry. We can be legitimately proud of the fact that we continue to lead the world in the development and production of aircraft turbine engines, and generally in the use of jet propulsion for the production of high speed aircraft. The production of such engines in this country is already making a considerable contribution to our export drive and to the solution of our balance of payment difficulties.
The larger part of our expenditure on research and development is devoted to the production of new types of aircraft

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for the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. The House must not expect to see spectacular results from this development yet, but I feel confident that we are on the right lines, and that in scientific and engineering talent we have little to fear from competition with other nations. As for the research underlying all major developments in equipment for the Fighting Services, I can say that work of a very high order is being done.
I want to see the research staffs enlarged, but I would say that in the last two or three years we deliberately refrained from expanding the scientific services too much because of what we felt at that time were the prior claims of the universities, the teaching professions, and the scientific claims of industry itself. This year I hope to make a long-needed increase, and I am glad to tell the House that in the opinion of my technical advisers the recruits coming forward are of a high quality, and that there is no indication that the great expansion of the schools of science at universities has brought about any lowering of average quality.
I think we can claim confidently that we have a closer integration of military and scientific thought in this country than exists in any other. This in itself is an asset of great importance. The general programme of research and development is based on military strategy adopted on the advice of the Chiefs of Staff, who in giving their advice have the advantage of the scientific advice available within each of their own Departments. I would add that what we developed, especially in the last two years of the war—as the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) may well know; the direct operational research as we call it—has gone on apace and is yielding most valuable results.
I think the House would not wish me to leave this Debate today without saying a word or two about the defence situation in relation to the Commonwealth and Commonwealth defence. At the opening I dealt with the developments in connection with Western Union and the proposed North Atlantic Pact. I indicated what our plans are for the United Kingdom Forces in relation to those developments and our world commitments. But we must not forget that
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our influence in the world is, in large measure, due to our position as a member of our own world-wide Commonwealth of Nations. The meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers in London in October last afforded opportunity for discussion of the present arrangements, and for consultation between the countries of the Commonwealth on defence matters
As will be seen from paragraph 11 of the White Paper, progress was made by the Prime Ministers in working out recommendations for • improving defence consultations and planning between the different Commonwealth nations. Work is continuing on this subject; improvements are being based on the existing machinery and developed from the interchange of service liaison staffs, which has been generally approved by the other Commonwealth countries. Developments will vary according to the differing needs of the Commonwealth countries and the differing circumstances which face them. I have been very pleased indeed with the amount of co-operation we have been getting, which is steadily developing on the basis of very good feeling indeed
In regard to Colonial defence, recent events have shown how important it is to press on with the economic development of the territories under the Crown. It is not easy for the Governments concerned in the Colonies to put in hand at the same time any substantial schemes of development for the defence forces supported by the Colonial territories. None the less, the need for adequate forces to maintain internal security is fully recognised, and Colonial Governments and Service Commands abroad have been made aware of the dangers now threatening. Every effort is made by the Colonial Governments within their means to strengthen their police forces to meet the dangers which confront them
Permanent arrangements have been made by which Colonial Governments receive guidance, either from the Defence Co-ordination Committees now sitting in the Middle East and Far East, or from Service Commands, or direct from the Colonial Office. The scale on which local forces should be maintained in East and West Africa in particular, both for purposes of internal security and in general for possible expansion in war, are under examination by the Chiefs of Staff, and

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financial means of maintaining those Forces in adequate strength are being considered by the Government in consultation with the Colonial Governments concerned.
Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: My right hon. Friend has told us about co-ordination in the Commonwealth countries and something about Atlantic policy. Would he say a word about our defence policy in the Pacific, which is of enormous importance, and in regard to which we are very much in the dark?
Mr. Alexander: I am already behind my schedule and I am occupying too much of the House's time. As I have pointed out, within the Commonwealth there is very good co-operation indeed, and we have a joint planning committee with regard to the Pacific area. Of course, we have very close consultation and understanding with the United States of America
I turn, in conclusion, to the financial proposals in the White Paper which the House is invited to approve today We envisage an expenditure of just under £760 million on defence in 1949–50 as compared with £692 million a year ago. The real increase is, however, greater than would appear from these figures because of the large element for war terminal expenditure amounting to £60 million included in last year's estimate. In fact, approximately £107.5 million is the real measure of the amount of increase in defence expenditure. Approximately one-third is accounted for by increased pay and insurance charges for both Service and civilian personnel and the higher cost of supplies, £5 million by increased expenditure on the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces and most of the balance of about £67 million on equipment
The uniformed personnel of the Services will fall during the year to 750,000, although I would say that that is some 34,000 higher than the comparable figure in last year's White Paper. The demands made by the Services on civilian labour will be steady throughout the year at about 700,000, details of which will be found in Annex I to the White Paper. This is a very heavy burden on our economic resources at the present time. Thus the broad picture is of increased production making this large call on the productive resources of the nation accompanied by a decline of rather less
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than 6 per cent. in uniformed manpower. I have seen it suggested that this means we shall in 1949–50 be getting less defence and paying more for it. That is a false picture. The fact is that each item of equipment is itself more complex, and, therefore, more costly, but the scale of equipment of modern units is much greater than ever before. Recently the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) made a comparison with 1914, but for purposes of illustration I would take a more recent year, 1938, which gives a fairer comparison. In 1938 the number of vehicles allocated to an army infantry division was about 1,500; now it is 3,000, which are reckoned to be essential in every respect
Let me confine myself to assuring the House that the proposals now before it in this White Paper represent the result of anxious study first by myself with my Service colleagues, then by the Government as a whole, of the relevant factors in a difficult situation. We are certain—and we invite the House to endorse our judgment—that the present situation requires of us a demonstration of our preparedness to play whatever part may be demanded of us by the circumstances and chances of a troubled world. That is why defence expenditure must go up.
I observe two Amendments on the Order Paper today. There is the Opposition Amendment put down today for the first time, and the Communist Amendment. The first complains of what is called
"so little result in effective fighting power in return for the very large resources of manpower and money already voted by Parliament."
It seems to me that the Opposition Amendment overlooks some of the main facts of the situation. In the present situation in the world more than 30 per cent. of our personnel have of necessity been maintained entirely overseas. They are spread over very wide dispersal commitments, and comprise a great deal of effective fighting strength. Behind this we have constantly to maintain the training of personnel to replace wastage and demobilisation which involve a very large amount of movement.
In addition, we have the operational strength of the Home Fleet and the home-based Royal Air Force squadrons. In

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the circumstances of the heavy post-war demobilisation it was inevitable, with the consequent unbalance in the Forces and the constant re-postings necessary to maintain our overseas commitments, that there should be a delay in the completion of the training of units and the building up of more formations. Now that stabilisation is being reached in the numbers of our personnel, efforts are being made to remedy that position, and I believe with good prospects of success.
I now come to the other Amendment on the Paper, which urges the reduction of the numbers in the provision for the Forces. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Communist Members are not here."] Then all I need say is this—I will not say what I was going to say, but I had prepared something pretty straight about it—
Mr. Harold Macmillan: Go on. It will do for the "cryptos."
Mr. Alexander: For the purposes of the record I will say what I was going to say and it might be of help to other Members of the House as well. The House will not be deceived by such an Amendment put forward over the names of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) and the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin). These are they whose comrades in France and Italy, clearly acting under the same alien inspiration, have recently declared that they would welcome the armies of Russia on their territories. Their object is to foster the legend that the peace-loving democratic nations of the West have been transformed almost overnight into imperialist aggressors—to sow doubt, and dissension and thus to undermine the country's will to resist the insidious attacks of Communism. But facts speak louder than their curious arguments. It is not we, nor our friends, who have delayed the preparation of plans for an effective international force under the United Nations; it is not we, nor our friends, who have blocked agreement on the general principles of a disarmament scheme; it is not we, nor our friends, who have prevented the creation of an international authority to control the production of nuclear material; it is not we, nor our friends, who have 28 times vetoed proposals in the Security Council of the United Nations.
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Before ourselves and before the rest of the free world, we can be clear that our defence measures have no aggressive purpose. We regret their necessity. We should like to see our overtures for peace and friendship received in a better way, but as long as Russia maintains her veto on peace and security, so long have we to be prepared to carry whatever burden is needful and within our resources to enable us to play our full and proper part in the defence of liberty and of the free peoples of the world.
4.40 p.m.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: I beg to move to leave out from "House," to the end of the Question, and to add:
"while willing to call upon the nation for whatever sacrifice of money or personal service is shown to be necessary to secure the national safety, cannot approve a statement which reveals so little result in effective fighting power in return for the very large resources of manpower and money already voted by Parliament."
The House has listened with great attention to the Minister of Defence in his careful review of the problem, and certainly we on this side of the House listened with marked approval to the concluding passages of his speech. We only regretted that those at whom it was so carefully aimed were not present in their places to receive the benefit of that advice.
I hope that the Minister of Defence will excuse me if I say that on the things which really matter, or at least on the things which really matter to me, he has done little else during his speech but paraphrase the White Paper, though I freely admit that he has done it in terms as felicitous as they were familiar. However, I have to say that I know very little more after hearing the speech of the right hon. Gentleman than I did after I had read the White Paper, just as I knew practically nothing more after I had read the White Paper than I did before I ever looked at it.
Quite independent of party, the House has a serious cause of complaint, expressed last year and renewed this year, as to the form and content of the White Paper. It tells us nothing of the really important matters. To use the words of Macaulay, every schoolboy knows of the case during the time of the South Sea Bubble when individuals were asked to subscribe their money for a purpose which would be disclosed hereafter. They were

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comparatively lucky because it is becoming clear from this series of White Papers that the purpose for which our money is now being asked is never going to be disclosed to us. I defy anyone with the ordinary knowledge that most of us in the House have acquired about these matters to find on reading the White Paper any indication whatsoever as to what is the real state today of the defences for which we are paying so highly.
Look at the White Paper. It starts with quite a harmless introduction setting out three perfectly respectable objectives for our Forces. My only complaint would be that they seem to be put in the wrong order. It seems remarkable to put down as one's first objective the building up of a long-term force and only afterwards to fit oneself to meet present aggression or to deal with incidents in the cold war. We then go on to a passage which is rather euphemistically labelled:
"Developments in the past year."
If we study that, we find that it is a summary which could have been prepared by anyone who had been a fairly constant reader of the popular Press during the last 12 months. As for the rest, there are, it is true, overall figures of men and money which are split into Services but which are not broken down any further and which do not, as far as any of the Services are concerned, allow one even to make an estimate of the formations which are resulting from the men and the money which we are voting. As to the equally important subject of equipment, the only definite figure which we are given is a large figure which we are going to spend on the overhaul of already obsolescent soft vehicles, and it is self-evident and not very encouraging that for the present, if the Army has to fight and if it has not got the weapons it wants, it will have to fight with the weapons it has got.
Is this really fair to the House? We recognise the needs of security and, like all other hon. Members, we are prepared to subordinate our interests, our natural curiosity and, indeed, our anxiety, to the legitimate claims of security, but the phrase, "the interests of security" is a very wide and very elastic one. The interests of security can easily be compounded with the convenience of departments, and what begins as a defence
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against a potential enemy may quite well end as a defence against a potential critic. Hon. Members will realise that the position was quite different before the war when the Estimates gave detailed figures of units and formations, details sufficient to enable hon. Members to decide whether value was being got for money and to have at any rate a rough idea of the potential strength of the Services for which we were paying. There was no completely full disclosure, but there was a general idea of our state of defence.
Was that situation really very dangerous then, and would a resumption of that practice be really very dangerous now? I am very doubtful if it would be, but even if we were told that a resumption of the pre-war practice was impossible, surely that should not preclude some further information beyond what we are being given today? I cannot believe that any hostile Power would have any difficulty at all in getting—if they have not already got it—not complete and accurate figures but at least a general idea of the strength and preparedness of the various Services for which we are going to be asked to vote the money. Yet even that general idea is being denied all of us who have to bear the ultimate responsibility for the burdens which are to be placed on the country.
I recommend the Government—perhaps in replying the Prime Minister will refer to it—to look at the statement of Lord Portal in another place yesterday. This was a statement not by a civilian who may be supposed to be indifferent to the needs of security and not by a politician who may be supposed to put party objects above those interests, but a statement by a man who knows the need for security. Yet he is prepared to say that, weighing the dangers of telling too much against the equally great dangers of telling too little, he believes that the balance would lie in favour of telling more than is being vouchsafed to us today. After all, we in the House of Commons are not without our special interest in this matter. We have a general interest, the general interest that all citizens have in the bulwarks between us and war and, still worse, defeat, but we have a special interest because it is we who will be asked to vote the money. we who will be asked to vote the men

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and we who will have ultimately to bear the responsibility. Does the Prime Minister really consider that he is leaving all of us who have no inside information, nothing but what we can cull from these official speeches and this official document, in a position to decide.
Mr. Scollan rose—
Mr. Stanley: I have a lot to say. After all, we are being met today with very formidable demands, roughly speaking, £750 million of money and 750,000 men.
Mr. Scollan: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that he has as much knowledge as to the efficiency of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force as the Cabinet, because they are in the hands of the experts?
Mr. Stanley: I would not presume to argue with the hon. Member as to the extent of the ignorance of the Cabinet, but surely even if the Cabinet remain ignorant, it is better that the hon. Member and I should become well-informed?
This is, as all sides of the House will agree, no small sacrifice that is being asked of the people. Yet, it is a sacrifice that I believe the vast majority are willing to bear. But they are willing to bear it only if they are convinced that nothing less than this will give security, and that with this, security is being won. I should like once again to emphasise the point I have made in other connections. It is not enough with regard to great items of national expenditure today just to be assured that the purpose is a good one, whether it is Colonial Development, or the social services, or this provision for national security. It is not enough for us just to be told: "Well, surely you agree with the objectives? "This House is not here just for the purpose of approving objectives. It has an equal responsibility to inquire into and to be satisfied with their efficient execution.
And so there is nothing at all contradictory in the position my hon. Friends and I take up today on this matter, the position that while we wholly approve the purpose of the Government—and, if I may say so, we have some little admiration for the politcal courage they have shown in making these great demands—we are profoundly disturbed whether these vast resources that should be sufficient
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to ensure our security, are not in fact being largely frittered away without purpose and without planning. I do not want this afternoon to go into much detail. This is an opportunity, and it is in fact the only opportunity we have, to deal with the wider issues; we can leave to the Service Estimates the more detailed questions which Members will no doubt wish to raise.
I wish to put to the Government two questions. They are not the sort of questions that would be asked by a military expert, but they are the sort of questions which pretty well any one of us in this House interested in this matter should ask himself. The first question is this. Is there really a plan behind all this? The second question is: if there is such a plan how are we getting on with executing it? First of all, in regard to a plan, it seems to me that this year, in view of events, we are entitled, even more than before, to ask that question, because the three major factors upon which any plan must depend have certainly become clearer within the last 12 months; the first is the direction from which any possible aggression might be expected, the second is the grouping of those Powers that are likely to join in to resist it, and the third is the further experience of the scope and effect of the new weapons.
In regard to the first, the Government statements alone, particularly that very serious statement made by the Lord President of the Council during the short Session in September, indicate quite clearly that if, today, we are to expect aggression from any quarter, the only quarter from which we are to expect it is from behind the iron curtain. In regard to the second, the remarkable progress with the formation of Western Union, the approaching completion, as we hope, of the Atlantic Pact and even the first stirrings of what surely must follow these two, some similar arrangement for the Pacific, are all putting in clearer perspective the obligations we are likely to have to bear to others, and the obligations that others are likely to have to bear towards us.
In regard to the third, the years that have elapsed since the war must have given the experts time to make some appreciation of the effect the new weapons have on the calls of defence.

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Incidentally, I differ profoundly from some people outside who think that the advent of a new weapon, however powerful, means that everything we are discussing here has now become quite out of date, and that everything we are now doing in any of the three Services has become useless. Not only is that not my experience, but after every war we have to choose between the extremes; on the one side the Blimps who want to conduct the new war with the weapons of the last, and on the other the Boffins who say that new inventions have made everything else out of date. My experience from the beginning of the last War is that the true course lies between the two, and that there is just as much danger in listening too much to the one as in listening too much to the other.
It seems, therefore, that three of the major factors upon which any plan has to be based have been clarified during the past 12 months, and that the time has arrived when we are entitled to ask whether there really exists some overall strategic plan. I do not mean by that the rather dreary list of commitments which are occasionally supplied to us in speeches or White Papers—the importance of the Middle East, the necessity of defending our shores and keeping open the trade routes of the Empire. All of us know the things that have to be done, but what we want the experts to say now is how these things are to be done.
We ask with all seriousness whether there is now in existence such a plan, a plan which takes into account our obligations to others as well as the obligations of others to us. A plan has to be subject to the limit of economic possibilities. No one suggests that we should have a plan purely on strategic considerations ignoring the economic factors, and no one believes that we can retain military strength in company with internal industrial collapse, but we do say that there should be a plan of this kind, which in effect is the ideal disposal of available resources, so that anything which does not conform with that plan can be regarded as a waste of men or money.
Is there such a plan in existence? We do not, of course, ask for the plan. We are not asking the Government to publish a White Paper setting out the
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deployment of our divisions or the objectives of our squadrons, but we do want to know whether there is some clearly defined purpose to which all these things which we are told are being done, are being subjected. I must admit that nothing I have heard so far gives me any confidence that such a plan is in existence. We have had a history of advance and retreat, of long vacillations and sudden decisions, and the impression given to me by the defence measures of the last two years has been just the contrary.
My impression is that the Government have set out to get all the men they could in what appeared to be the easiest way; that they have then taken what equipment they already had or could make serviceable, or could make most easily, and having put together the men and the equipment acquired in that way, they have proceeded to make a plan of how to use them. I want to see the opposite. I want to see the plan made first, and the men we get and the equipment we use, fitted into that plan. Certainly nothing in the White Paper leads one to suppose that such a plan exists—and certainly nothing in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I do hope—and when I say "hope" I mean it sincerely—that the Prime Minister when he replies can give us that confidence, because this is not just a partisan criticism. It is on the part of many people—and many people not confined to the ranks of my party—a deep and sincere anxiety.
If there is a plan, how are we getting on with its implementation? Of course, this is the most difficult part of all for anybody who does not sit on the Front Bench opposite to argue, because this is a matter on which we have absolutely no information whatsoever; there is nothing from official sources which can give us any clue as to the progress we are making. Therefore, if we are to deal with the matter at all, we are forced to rely on information which, frankly, is unsatisfactory. We have to rely on Press reports, on rumour and on the letters from individual serving men about conditions in individual units. That is all we can have. I know it is not very good; I know it may give a wholly distorted picture, but, in view of the fact that the Government withhold everything from us, we have to make use of whatever information we have.

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Certainly all that I—and I think this applies to my hon. Friends—hear from such sources leaves us with a profound sense of disquiet as to what progress we are making or whether, in fact, we are making any progress at all—not only towards what is selected as the first of the objectives—the building up of the long-range force—but what to me seems at the moment a much more urgent necessity, the meeting of the second and third of the objectives—the ability to meet sudden aggression now and to carry out our current commitments in this period of cold war. No doubt, we shall have further opportunities, and my hon. Friends will take them, for developing these points, but I should like to indicate to the Prime Minister the sort of things which come to our ears and which lead us to this disquiet.
We start with the Navy. The Navy is in an exceptional position because in the Memorandum attached to the Estimates they have actually given us certain figures. I do hope that the First Lord of the Admiralty has been suitably rebuked for this irresponsible breach of security, and I hope that potential aggressors have not had their intelligence services strengthened by the disclosure of this information. The figures which are published are certainly better than last year. At any rate, we are not in the deplorable position which was pointed out last Spring. However, there are two points on which little has been said and on which, I confess, I feel anxiety. There are battleships and aircraft carriers available, but I cannot see that if we were suddenly called upon to meet the second of these objectives—sudden aggression—we should be likely to start with a large-scale Fleet action.
It seems to me that by far the greatest danger, and a danger which, from all one hears today, has been largely increased, would be the danger to our sea communications. There is nothing in the White Paper and nothing indeed in Naval Estimates which gives one ground for confidence that what we are doing in the way of anti-submarine protection is adequate for a sudden danger which, under the terms of the White Paper, we have to be prepared to meet.
The second matter which worries me is the question of cruiser strength because, whatever the necessities of
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actual warfare might be, it seems to me that that plays a most essential part in the sort of commitments which might arise during the cold war. We must all face the fact that at almost any time and in almost any part of our Colonial Empire, Communism may succeed in playing on ignorance and impetuosity and provoking riots, disturbance and, indeed civil war. It will have nothing to do with the Secretary of State for the Colonies; it will have nothing to do with good or bad administration by his Department. It will be just part of the campaign being carried on all over the world, and we have got to be prepared to meet it. All experience shows that that kind of thing is best met if it is met quickly, and that a commotion or a riot, which adequate force can easily stop to begin with, if allowed to develop, may in the end become a large commitment. It is surely for that kind of thing that an adequate cruiser strength is so very essential.
With regard to the Royal Air Force, there was yesterday an extremely interesting Debate in another place, the report of which I am sure all hon. Members have read. There are others on these benches who have far more experience than I in this matter, and who will want to raise this question in much greater detail. I will confess to the Prime Minister that what has made me most anxious of all about the present state of our Air Force is the fact that in this White Paper the word "bomber" is never used once. We are told something about the other branches of the Air Force, but it is not very informative or very encouraging.
We are told that the fighter squadrons are being re-equipped with jet planes, but we are not told at what rate that is being carried on. We are even told that Transport Command will get some attention, but nowhere in the whole of this Paper, which is supposed to deal with the general plan of Defence over the next 12 months, could one even gather the fact that the present Royal Air Force has any bomber strength whatsoever. Perhaps it has not. Perhaps that is the reason for this remarkable omission from the White Paper. But when we take that in conjunction with the sort of reports which were current after that large-scale air exercise before Christmas, to which reference is made in this White Paper, the

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Prime Minister will, I think, understand the real anxiety that people feel whether in the bomber squadrons of the Royal Air Force we have an adequate striking force—the sort of striking force which is so often the best and the quickest means of defence.
Finally I come to the Army. Let us from what we know of the Army, look to see how it is facing up to the objectives set out in the White Paper, and first of all at its ability immediately to meet aggression,
"if suddenly and unexpectedly called upon to do so."
The ability to meet aggression does not mean a number of individuals. It does not even mean a number of units. It must entail a number of formations, up to strength, fully trained and fully equipped. That surely is the greatest and most immediate purpose, and is what the Army needs. What is the ultimate result, the real value for all the men and all the money we pour in at the other end? In terms of that sort, in terms of formations, fully armed, fully equipped and up to strength, what have we for what we are spending? My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) gave an estimate before Christmas of two divisions. A recent newspaper summary gave an estimate even lower than that. Surely the Prime Minister cannot be surprised if we, with no information whatsoever to the contrary and with no figures to contradict those statements, and I think, all hon. Members in all parts of the House, feel the deepest anxiety.
Are we even prepared to meet a threat to our commitments, the sort of case that I referred to with regard to an aggressor, and that arose in Malaya last Autumn? We did not find it very easy to meet that commitment. Any hon. Member who knew, as many did from correspondents, of the difficulties of sending a Guards Brigade and the length of time which was necessary for that Guards Brigade to train after it got there, must realise that even meeting that commitment was not easy. Are we in a position to meet any other such commitment if it should arise today?
I think what is giving us more anxiety than anything is the state today of our anti-aircraft defences. A Question was asked by my hon. and gallant Friend the
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Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) the other day of the Secretary of State for War, a Question which disclosed deep anxiety. The only answer from the Secretary of State was that he could give no information at all. Of course, that is an answer which he was entitled to return but it is not the sort of answer that removes anxieties while they exist, nor is it the sort of answer which gives assurances which may be adequate. We, too, want to hear, even if it is impossible to give detailed figures of guns and men, what is the state of our anti-aircraft today. Was not a very great deal of its preparedness to depend upon the scheme of "Z" registration? May we know how many men have registered? If not, how many other steps are to be taken to bring to a higher state of security what must be almost the most vital of all the defensive services of this country?
Before I sit down I want to refer to one or two general points. The first is that which was raised by the Minister of Defence himself, the question of regular recruits. It is clear from a study of the White Paper and from phrases which occur in many of its paragraphs, that this increase of regular recruitment is indeed the dominant need, if not of all three Services certainly of two of them. I am not going to follow the right hon. Gentleman in his comparisons between what is being done now and what had been done after the last war, and as to the difficulties of recruiting under full employment, compared with the difficulties of recruiting when there was a considerable amount of unemployment. The only fact that matters to us today is that we are not getting the recruitment that we need. We are not getting the necessary regular recruitment by, I should imagine, a very substantial figure indeed. The effect of that is felt all through certainly two of the three Services. It is not only the direct loss of trained and efficient men but it is the indirect loss of the efficiency of National Service men, coming from over-dilution of the units into which they are put.
So it seems to me that the efficiency of the Army and of the Air Force depend on the solution of this problem which really is the crux of the whole matter. I am not going to discuss the details of pay and allowances, or of all the other conditions. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that

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it is the other conditions, just as much as pay and allowances which may prove the attraction to the various Forces. I am not going to wrangle with him about it. All I am going to say is that whether those conditions are good or bad and however one describes them, they do not seem at the moment to be doing the job that they have to do, which is to get the recruits which the right hon. Gentleman wants. It does not seem that they are doing it. If this is the crux of the problem, as I believe it to be, there is only one thing to do and that is to give terms of pay and conditions which will get the recruits that we must have. I know it may be costly. I recognise that possibility, but without it, it is clear from the White Paper that a great deal of the money we are spending already is being wasted. I think it is clear to all of us that if we succeed, and if we bring our Regular recruitment up to the sort of figure which all of us have in mind—and although it has never been disclosed I imagine it is the standard in the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite—then there will be great possibilities of saving in other directions.
I should like to say a word upon Commonwealth co-operation, again a matter to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. I have read with very great interest paragraphs 10 and 13 of the White Paper, which deal with this point. I say frankly to the right hon. Gentleman that I was disappointed. It seemed to me that in these four paragraphs we have the sort of thing which would have been all right before 1914. I feel that since the war, there has been a profound change in our strategic relations with the Commonwealth countries. Before 1914, we, the United Kingdom, were, broadly speaking, wholly responsible for the immediate defence of the Empire. It was our Navy, our Army, our Air Force—which in those days was negligible—which guaranteed the Commonwealth as a whole at the outbreak of hostilities. To some extent the position changed between 1914 and 1939, but it was still broadly the same. Broadly speaking, in 1939 it was still the United Kingdom Navy, the United Kingdom Air Force and the United Kingdom Army which had to meet the immediate brunt of any hostilities. Of course, we relied upon the Dominions enormously for the
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subsequent conduct of the war. Without the gigantic help they gave us, we probably should have lost the war of 1914 and we certainly would have lost the war of 1939, but so far as the outbreak of war was concerned, up to 1939 it was largely our responsibility.
That is no longer the case. In its aftermath, the war has changed irrecoverably and dramatically the balance of financial and industrial power between the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth countries. No longer can we expect, no longer are we in a position ourselves to have the responsibility for Commonwealth defence even at the outbreak of hostilities. So the sort of consultation which was all right so long as any help the Dominions were giving was a kind of bonus on top of the responsibility we had already assumed, seems no longer adequate in the situation in which we find ourselves today.
I know this is a very delicate matter. All of us in this House realise not only the fact of the complete independence of the Dominions, but the importance that the Dominions attach to that fact being fully recognised. To my mind, however, definite obligations willingly undertaken, are not inconsistent with independence. There are many cases in history, there are many cases now, there will be cases under Western Union, of sovereign Powers entering into solemn commitments one to the other. I hope that a time will come, perhaps not too long ahead, when in these matters of Empire defence, we shall be able to proceed from the vague regions of consultation into the more definite spheres of concerted planning.
Mr. Alexander: I thought I said specifically that, apart from improvement of the consultation and of the basis of liaison which is going on, there was also joint planning.
Mr. Stanley: Then, if I may amplify what I said, by "plans" I meant not just staff studies, but plans so definite in their implication that we ourselves can make our military arrangements secure in the knowledge that other portions of our defence plans are being looked after by others.
One word with regard to the Minister of Defence himself. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not think it in any way

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impertinent of me to have kept him to the last. There is nothing personal in this, but I want to consider how the Minister of Defence is carrying out the responsibilities placed on him. The position he occupies is most difficult. All of us realised, when we read the original White Paper, that in some ways, the position of Minister of Defence in peacetime would be more difficult, although of course the issues were less momentous, the responsibilities not so pressing, as compared with the position of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford as Minister of Defence in war. Not only would the Minister have to operate without the added prestige of being Prime Minister, but he would have to meet the inevitable centrifugal tendencies of a post-war period.
Therefore we naturally expected that the Prime Minister, in choosing a man for this post, would choose from among his colleagues the man whom he thought most resembled in the essential qualities my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford. Intellectual grasp, power of decision, great moral courage—those are the qualities needed for this post, and those naturally, were the qualities for which the Prime Minister selected the Minister of Defence.
Enough time has gone now to ask how it is working. We have had some instances, not wholly happy ones, in the past. I shall try to take a more objective test. One small test is the preparation of this paper. If I thought the Ministry of Defence was really working as I really hoped it would, I should have expected this paper to have a much greater appearance of having sprung from one source, of having been the product of one brain and one hand, instead of having the appearance—as it certainly has to me—of being three separate statements sent in by three different Ministries, put together with a covering note from the man who could not get away in time.
The real test, I think, lies in the preparation of the Service Estimates. That is, as we were given to understand, the real way in which the Minister of Defence and his Ministry would affect vitally the whole of Service planning. In the days when I first went into the Government, there was no question of a Ministry of Defence. Each Service put up its Estimates independently to the
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Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer usually had in his mind some level of Service expenditure which he was prepared to admit, and if the total sums asked for by the three Services exceeded his estimated sum, a cut was applied, and that cut was usually applied in the same proportion to all the Service Estimates. That was a thoroughly bad way of doing it. It meant that the economies to be effected were effected on a wholly automatic basis with no relation to the strategic necessities of the case.
The new way was to be through the Minister of Defence, with a co-ordinated, coherent plan put up for the Services as a whole, the argument with the Treasury to be on the basis of the Services as a whole, and any reductions to be made by the Minister of Defence, not automatically equal through all the Services, but bearing in mind the strategic claims of one as against the other. Has that been the result? Is that what is happening today? The presentation of the Estimates, not only in this year but in previous years, would give the appearance that it was still the old way that was being followed, and that little progress had been made, if not towards the fusion of Services—no one ever promised that through the Minister of Defence for that is not his function—towards the fusion of their policies and the fusion of their plans.
If I may sum up: the line we take upon these benches is that we support wholeheartedly in its main essentials the foreign policy of the Government; we agree that the Government is entitled to have, must have, the military strength adequate to the foreign policy which it is pursuing; and we could join with the Government in asking the country to accept the resulting sacrifices, heavy as they might be. However, though we agree with the purpose of the Government, we are profoundly disturbed at the way it is executed. We have no inside information, no knowledge except those sources open to all hon. Members of the House but, from what we know, we believe that this Administration in Service matters lacks consistent and coherent planning, and lacks the sustained drive to achieve it. In other words, we have no confidence whatsoever that with regard to these vast demands for men and money the country is getting in terms of security full value

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for the demands that have been made upon it, and it is for that reason and in that spirit that I have moved the Amendment which stands in my name.
5.30 p.m.
Mr. Bing: The right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) said that we should keep the Debate on the broad aspects of defence and with that I, at any rate, am in full agreement. It is a great pity, therefore, that he did not tell the House something of the general policy on defence of the party opposite. When they were in power they had an opportunity of working out a scheme for the co-ordination of defence. Indeed, it came to a fine flower in 1939. Is that the scheme which they would like to substitute for the present one or have they abandoned it? I ask this because the hon. Gentleman himself was one of its principal authors. He was in the Cabinet or, at any rate, was a member of the Government from 1931 onwards. But the scheme itself came in for some criticism from the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill).
Therefore, when the names of both those right hon. Gentlemen appear on the Amendment, I think the House should be told whether the party opposite still adheres to that scheme, which, hon. Members may recall, the right hon Member for Woodford described in these words.
"I have always had sympathy for my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. On public grounds, at considerable personal sacrifice, he accepted nearly three years ago an office for which his high gifts and life-long specialist training had in no way fitted him. …"
That was said by the present Leader of the party of which the right hon. Member for West Bristol is a member. He went on to say:
"… but as the House seemed to realise at the time, although it could not shake off its inertia, the office itself was framed in a manner so curious that he really never had a chance of discharging it successfully. It was a compromise which bore in every paragraph the imprint of inter-departmental interests and rivalries."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1938; Vol. 341, c. 1132.]
Is that the scheme to which we are to return? The right hon. Gentleman himself was a Member of the Government which collected, over a period of four years, a sum of £2,000 million of the purpose of re-armament. We know where that went to and what was its
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final result, because the despatches of Lord Gort are available to us. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that towards the end of those despatches was a passage entitled "Lessons." No doubt the right hon. Gentleman looked at those lessons, for he was, of course, Secretary of State for War during the period when the facts from which those lessons were learnt were taking place. It was said in Lord Gort's despatches that the enemy
"was able to place in the field and to concentrate no less than ten armoured divisions in the area which he selected, and later, to employ at least five of these against the British rearward defences. On the other hand, the British armoured forces in the theatre of war amounted to seven divisional cavalry regiments equipped with light tanks, one regiment of armoured cars of an obsolete pattern, and two battalions of infantry tanks, the latter, except for 23 Mark II tanks, being armed each with one machine-gun only."
That was the result of the right hon. Gentleman's policy. Two thousand million pounds were spent in order to produce at the right place and moment 23 tanks.
The House may well ask itself whether the defence policy we should adopt is not exactly the opposite of the defence policy previously pursued by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. There may be criticisms about our own defence policy, but is the best way to go about it to vote in favour of an Amendment moved by the party opposite, when it is agreed, I think, on both sides of the House that our first task should be to repudiate their policy?
The right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to say that this Debate evidenced serious complaints which should be looked at quite independently of party. There is something in that point of view, but if he is inviting Members of this party to vote against their own Government, he ought at least to have said something about the action of his own party when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford made the same request and said this:
"I am going to address myself particularly to hon. Friends of mine above the Gangway who sit behind the Ministers. … I say they have a grave responsibility for our present plight. The history of England is still to be written and unfolded. History will disentagle individual responsibility and will lay the blame on the shoulders where blame should be, but hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway—pledged, loyal, faithful supporters on all occasions of His Majesty's Government—must not imagine that they can throw their burden wholly on the Ministers of the Crown."

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The right hon. Gentleman will see, therefore, that his right hon. Friend did exempt him to some degree. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford went on to say exactly what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol, in these words:
"This is no party question. It has nothing to do with party. It is entirely an issue affecting the broad safety of the nation."
He then went on to make his appeal, and said:
"I put it as bluntly as I possibly can. If only 50 Members of the Conservative Party went into the Lobby tonight to vote for this Amendment, it would not affect the life of the Government, but it would make them act"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1938; Vol. 341, c. 1128–9.]
I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman chose 50 Members of the Conservative Party, because we have heard from the benches opposite how wrong it is to calculate a number in such a way as not to endanger the life of the Government but, nevertheless, to produce an effect. I wonder whether it was perhaps a little fanciful, and whether the right hon. Gentleman had in mind the warning of the moral in the Bible in the tale of the fate of the wicked Cities of the Plain. It will be remembered that the Almighty offered to exempt them from vengeance—
"If I find … fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."
Mr. Stanley: I should never dream of applying that to the party opposite. I should know that 50 was quite out of the question.
Mr. Bing: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman misunderstands me, but I will go part of the way with him. The right hon. Gentleman was a little firmer than the Almighty, because the Almighty, on being approached by a local inhabitant who knew the spirit and temper of the place, modified his view to ten.
Sir Patrick Hannon: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is not the course upon which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) has embarked gross sacrilege?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Bowles): The hon. Gentleman is exaggerating a little. I think the whole speech has been in rather good humour and I had not noticed any spirit of sacrilege at all.
Mr. Bing: I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite will be satisfied to know that the result in both cases was almost identical. It will be remembered that there were five just persons found from Sodom and Gomorrah, and that the right hon. Gentleman found three Conservatives to go into the Lobby with him. Of course, his right hon. Friend voted on the other side. He may say that he was tied, that he was a Member of the Government, but not so the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden); he was not tied—he was no longer a Member of the Government—yet he voted on the other side. Therefore, on this side, at any rate, we ought to be a little careful in accepting these invitations to look at the thing in an all-party spirit when one sees how contemptuously a similar all-party appeal by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford was rejected by his own party.
The right hon. Member for West Bristol will remember that once when I was speaking on the Conservative Party, in dealing with something from the 19th century, he interrupted me by saying, "Wake me up, somebody, when we reach the 20th century." I must confess that I thought at the time that the right hon. Gentleman really considered it prudent, in order to continue to support his party with a good conscience, to close his ears to the lessons of history. But looking at it again, I see that I misjudged him and that what he was really doing was making an appeal to his own party. He had hit upon the trouble; we have reached the 20th century but it is impossible to wake up right hon. and hon. Members on the Front Bench opposite to it. When one looks at their arguments in regard to the Forces one sees this. Look how they are based on numerical questions. "Where," says the right hon. Member for Woodford, "are the divisions; why have we not so many men?" But defence, modern defence, is not a question of numbers of effective fighting men in that sense at all. It is a question of the economic organisation of the whole country, and to produce a large number of effectives standing under arms now merely heightens the international tension when we should do our best to lessen it and, if adopted by my right hon. Friend, would lead to a grave economic crisis here.

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There are, of course, strong arguments on this side of the House for looking again at our commitments and considering in all sorts of ways whether we can revise the organisation of our Forces, but I do not think any of us needs the support of hon. Members opposite in that task. I do not think anything would be gained by passing confidential information to hon. Members opposite. Why should they have it? I think it is an impudent request. Before we trust them with information, we should look at their record in regard to defence—[An HON. MEMBER: "And yours."]—All the records, but let us start with the record of the party opposite.
After all, defence was our first nationalised enterprise and if one looks at it one sees that hon. Members opposite practise, in regard to defence, as a virtue, all the things which they now allege—I think quite wrongly—are evils in regard to the nationalised industries. I take one example from a Debate two days ago. The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. G. Ward), one of the backers of this Amendment, complained, rightly or wrongly, that we had uneconomic and makeshift aircraft. He wanted to bring the industry up to date, but what was the principal policy which occupied Question Time in the dark days of 1939 before the outbreak of hostilities? The hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) wanted the Scots Greys to retain their horses. This was their method of making the Army up to date. Of course, that was a virtue; this was how it could be made a picturesque Service. Such was the view. Two days ago the appointment of Lord Douglas to a civil aviation post was criticised as a party appointment, but before the war where could one find a general who would not have been condemned by all his associates and friends if he had not pulled every string he possibly could to get his son into his own unit? It would have been said: "Here is a monstrous departure from regimental tradition."
The whole attitude of hon. Members opposite in this House is a thing which in itself, hinders recruiting because they insist on a sort of bias in the Services which we on this side of the House must do our utmost to get rid of. I suggest to hon. Members on all sides of the
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House that they might purchase a book, which is being "remaindered" now on the bookstalls. It is entitled, "Some talk of Alexander." I recommend it very strongly to hon. Members opposite. It deals in great detail with the life of an N.C.O. in the Guards during the late war. Even at that late date the test of a man's efficiency was judged by the shine on his boots and the mechanical precision of his movements. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) is not here to interrupt me, because he always interrupts any reference, however oblique, to the Brigade of Guards. It is the passing of this kind of tradition which is necessary if we are to have a type of officer who is not technically indifferent. There is still a kind of military lingua franca used to judge the efficiency of a unit merely by looking at its boots. One looks at the men's boots and says, "A fine turnout," or otherwise. It is that sort of tradition which hon. Members opposite stand for and which, in the Navy, for example, makes the question of the retention of the battleship a social problem rather than a question of naval efficiency.
It is these questions with which we have to deal as a party, and we are equipped in this party, whatever views we may have on defence, to deal with these questions, and without any help from hon. Members opposite. I would say to hon. Members on this side of the House that, whatever doubts we may have and whatever reservations we may have, in regard to particular aspects of defence, I hope we are all united in the belief that the party opposite, which so mismanaged defence when they had the opportunity not to criticise but to do something about it, should have no part whatever in planning now, and we on this side of the House will vote against their Amendment.
5.47 p.m.
Mr. Frank Byers: I am sure the House has enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Horn-church (Mr. Bing). I certainly have, but, if the House will forgive me, I shall return to defence. I say in passing that it will probably be my view tonight that it is right to vote against the Motion, although that will not in any way commit me to the support of past or future Conservative defence policy. I suggest that 50 Members opposite, if they voted

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against the Government tonight, would not endanger the life of the Government, but they might get the Government to act. They have the majority and it lies with them to take the initiative.
I do not think that any hon. Member who takes defence seriously can be satisfied with this Defence White Paper. I am sure that hon. Members opposite could not approve in their own hearts, if they were free of the Whips, the sort of thing which has been given to us in this White Paper. It does not tell us very much, but what it does tell us causes me alarm, and even despondency, and I do not think that the situation was improved, if I may say so with respect, by the Minister merely repeating the White Paper two or three times in his speech this afternoon, for the House learned nothing new.
Is it not possible now to give us more information? I realise the interests of security, but in the White Papers and Estimates we have been given far less information than potential enemies of this country must have in their possession today. Even in the war, we used regularly to go through lists and take things off the secret list. We used to give information, not information which would be of value to the enemy, but information which would assist the people of the country to make up their minds that things were going right, instead of going wrong. The Minister of Defence is up against this problem: he will have to give more information if he wishes to create confidence in the country. I agree with the criticisms which have been made that this White Paper does not show an adequate plan. It does not show what are the real intentions of the Ministry of Defence or of the Departments themselves.
I and my colleagues have regularly called for this defence plan for the last 2½ years. The House will recall that I have said that we have spent far too much time discussing matters like conscription, important as they are, instead of getting down to a basic plan for national and collective defence. There is this vast expenditure, which I am not criticising. The Government will have to spend money on our defence today. Inevitably large numbers of men are being tied up, but unless the Government have a proper plan they will not marry up the various factors and ensure real value for money.
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The real effort today seems to be on training the individual soldier instead of putting into the field operationally efficient formations. There was not one reference by the Minister of Defence today, nor was there in the White Paper so far as I could see, to the numbers of the formations which we have at our command, or any suggestion as to their operational efficiency.
How many formations have we got, how many divisions? The time has come when we should be given some indication, because indications are, as the right hon. Gentleman said, being given in the Press. Is the figure two divisions? Is it three divisions? If it is three divisions does the number include Colonial divisions? Does it include parachute divisions? Is there an armoured division? There was no inkling of this in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. What was the point of his standing at that Box for an hour without giving us some information. We knew in 1939 how many divisions we had. We are to have 391,000 men in the Army on 31st March, 1950. If the planning figure for a division is 30,000 to 40,000, how many divisions are we to have by March, 1950? Can we be given some answer by the Prime Minister?
Apart from the number of divisions or brigades, what is the state of their operational efficiency? One never hears now of divisional exercises being carried out. Are they being carried out? Are corps exercises being carried out? Perhaps that is kept secret. If so, can we be told that it is to be kept secret, because from reading the Press and going around the country the indication I get is that no formation exercises are taking place.
I do not intend to criticise the total numbers of men in the Armed Forces. The number of men required is governed by the commitments which have to he met. But I suggest that there are certain savings which could be made in the Army, and possibly, in certain cases, in the Royal Air Force, not only without affecting the efficiency of the Armed Forces but with advantage to their efficiency. I shall refer first to the suggestion which has been made on occasion of having a civilian administrative corps to do the fatigue routine administration duties of the Armed Forces. I believe

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a corps of that kind of about 20,000 could be provided which would enable the soldiers to get on with their proper task. Such a corps might cost £6,000,000 or £7,000,000. Has this proposal been seriously considered by the Ministry of Defence? If so, do they approve of it? I cannot see how they can disapprove of it, because it would help the efficiency of the Armed Forces. If they approve, what has the Treasury to say about the proposal? Is the Minister tackling the Treasury about it?
I should like to go further than the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley). The time has now come when we should ask the sister nations of the British Commonwealth to undertake some of the overseas garrisoning and routine duties which now fall upon this country. I do not believe that that is too much to ask. After all, we in this country cannot go on making ourselves responsible for all these garrisons without receiving some help and assistance from other members of the British Commonwealth, who are desperately interested in the preservation of peace in parts of the Empire and in other parts of the world. I can see no reason why we should not have Australian, New Zealand, Canadian and South African troops in Trieste, in Austria—
Mr. Alexander: I hope that the hon. Member will not be ungenerous to the Dominions or forget the great help which they have already given by their share of the garrison in Japan, their responsibility for the defence of Fiji and other places in the Pacific, and for certain other commitments undertaken by them. They are being exceedingly helpful, and I hope that the hon. Member will not underrate that help.
Mr. Byers: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has interrupted me on that point. I do not seek to underestimate the contribution which the Dominions have made, but I think there is a case for asking them whether there are other commitments of which they can relieve us now and in the future. I believe that they would be willing to do so. I believe that it would help our Commonwealth relationship and liaison to have these troops assisting us and even taking over commitments for us in
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different parts of the world. Is it possible to say that another 30,000 men could be saved in that way? I believe that some saving of manpower could be made which would enable our people to concentrate upon attaining the operational efficiency which is required.
I wish to refer briefly to the general manpower figures. This matter seems to me to be fundamental to the whole question of Defence. I do not think that the Minister of Defence has deliberately misled us, but he has misled the "Economist" and a number of people by the way in which the figures are presented in the Defence White Paper. We are told in the Defence White Paper that the total manpower in the Services in March, 1950, will be 146,000 in the Navy, 391,000 in the Army and 213,000 in the Air Force. In December last the Minister of Defence gave us an estimate of the Regular content of the Armed Forces in March, 1950. It was an estimate and I am not tying him down to the exact figures. He gave an estimate of 195,000 Regulars, including 18,000 A.T.S. in the Army, 127,000 in the Royal Air Force and 150,000 in the Navy. That will mean that we shall have 177,000 Regulars and 196,000 National Servicemen in the Army in March, 1950.
Can we have confirmation of that figure? It is a figure which has always been avoided by the Ministry of Defence. In the case of the Air Force we shall have 127,000 Regulars and 86,000 National Servicemen. That is the difference between the National Service element and the National Service intake which I think is where the "Economist" went wrong. The National Service element shows that our Forces are and still will be unbalanced. That is what worries me. These Forces cannot be operationally effective if those figures are anything like correct. Over 50 per cent. of our Army in March, 1950, will consist of youths under 20. I do not see how we are ever to get operational efficiency if that is the position. Again, in the R.A.F., 35 per cent. or more will be youths under 20. This is the direct result of conscription and of relying upon the National Service principle.
I cannot relieve the party above the Gangway of their responsibility for the conspiracy they entered into with this Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]

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They supported this Government in their National Service policy at the beginning, when we stated, "You have two years in which to re-orientate the whole of your policy and get a balace." All the party above the Gangway could do—so typical of Conservatism—was to say, "We think it is a very good idea to have National Service." It is no use for the party above the Gangway now to blame the Government. They are just as much responsible. We have a clean record.
Brigadier Head: How can the hon. Gentleman talk to us about his clean record? Does he honestly believe that during this interim period from 1945 up to now, we could have fulfilled our overseas commitments without conscription? If he does he is stupid; if he does not, he is a hypocrite.
Mr. Byers: I did not say that in the least. What we said two years ago was that by the end of 1949, we should be able to get rid of conscription. That was the original arrangement—that conscription was going to run until 1949. Nobody suggested it should be taken away immediately. But in the meantime, when we voted, it was for a Bill to bring in permanent conscription from 1st January, 1949. That was made clear to hon. Members who were here. What we were voting on was the Bill coming into force on 1st January, 1949, and it was because the period of service was altered, that another Bill had to be brought in. We voted against that, because we said there were still 15 months in which to get moving. There have been two and a half years in which to find the volunteers who have been lost. What I say is that the Conservative Party have a very big responsibility. They could have brought down the Government on this in December, but they had not the courage to do so.
Brigadier Head: At the expense of the safety of the country.
Mr. Byers: Does the hon. and gallant Member really think that?
Brigadier Head: I do.
Mr. Byers: Then he thinks the Government are right in their defence policy; so he must support them tonight.
Brigadier Head: Rubbish.
Mr. Byers: The only reference made in the White Paper to more volunteers is that the Government will aim at meeting the highest possible proportion of its commitments by Regular volunteers, and so on. It gives no indication whatever of what the Government are going to do. What are they going to do? This is not a matter which can be dealt with on the Estimates. We have to bring this question of the volunteer element up to the level of the Defence Debates because it is fundamental to the operational efficiency of our formations. I believe that the problem today is not merely how to get more volunteers, but how to keep the Regulars that we have got in the Armed Forces.
I consider that the claim made by the right hon. Gentleman that we should refrain from criticising the Government when they make increases in pay, is a dishonest claim. It is not a claim or an appeal to which I propose to respond. It is our duty to criticise. I told the right hon. Gentleman when he brought in that £12 million increase in November, that all he was trying to do was to remedy certain hardships. I have been pleading for a realistic policy of pay and decent conditions for the Armed Forces in order to keep volunteers in and to get more. We shall not get volunteers until we have the present Regulars saying that they are fully satisfied with the conditions in the Services and that they would not change their job with anyone in civilian life.
Mr. Alexander: I know what is being said about officers and the marriage allowance, but with regard to other ranks who took the bulk of the provision made last November, there was not only an increased marriage allowance but there was a definite rise in pay and an increase in the trade rates which afforded some future for the men in the Services. There was a definite inducement to keep Regulars of skill and experience in the Services, and I do not think that anyone has denied that.
Mr. Byers: But is it not also true that there are several hundred Regulars, other ranks as well as officers, leaving the Forces every month? There is a drift away, and the right hon. Gentleman cannot ride off on that. Is it not true that we are short of signallers? If we are we have plenty of signallers in the country—telegraphists and people working in the

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Post Office and so on—how is it that the right hon. Gentleman cannot get them into the Army?
Mr. Mellish: Because of full employment.
Mr. Byers: The hon. Member says it is because of full employment. But in full employment, if the rate is paid for the job, one obtains the willing man. But if it is not, one does not get him. This is the dilemma that we are in. Neither the Conservative Party nor the Government will face up to paying the Armed Forces the rate for the job.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Nonsense.
Mr. Byers: The Conservative Party used unemployment and the Government uses conscription, and the fact that the Conservative Party use unemployment, is no excuse for the Government refusing to pay the rate for the job now.
Commander Pursey: Would the hon. Gentleman answer this; is it not a fact that from 1901 until 1914 the Liberal Party consistently paid the soldier a shilling a day?
Mr. Byers: I am very sorry about that, but I cannot accept full responsibility for it because I only entered this world in 1915.
I do not wish to detain the House, but this always seems to happen when we have these discussions. I suggest to the Minister that three things have to be done to raise the status of the Armed Forces. A good deal could be done by giving proper pay and conditions, and guaranteeing that the men have qualifications when they leave the Services. Something is being done in that way and we welcome it. The second thing which we have to accept is that the true comparison is not between 1949 and 1939. The true comparison is between what these people in the Armed Forces can earn today in the Armed Forces, compared with what they could earn in industry. The Minister will never accept that. He always says, "Look at the improvements we have made." Will the Minister give me the figure of the percentage increase in the pay and allowances in the Armed Forces compared with the percentage increase in industrial wage rates over the
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last two and a half years? He knows that he dare not, because it would be to the detriment of the Armed Forces.
Mr. Alexander: On the contrary, the whole reorganisation of the pay code in 1945 was on the basis of relating it to comparable employment in civil life. The whole revision for other ranks last November was also to catch up on the intervening period. We maintained that in November we brought the rates up on a footing with increases outside.
Mr. Byers: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that he is giving the game away? Every three years we try to catch up with industry. How can we expect to attract more people into the Army in that way? We have to be ahead of industry—[Interruption]—I am sorry, but do hon. Members want volunteers or not? If they do not want volunteers, then let us go on with conscription. If they want volunteers, I claim that the rate for the job must be paid. I also claim that we shall not have operational efficiency until we have volunteer Regular Forces. I want to see all the Armed Forces entirely voluntary. I believe it is right from the point of view of equity and operational efficiency.
I know that the Minister of Defence differs, but we have to face up to these things. There is, as the Minister has said, the defence of this country and the contribution we must make to the collective defence of Western Union and the Atlantic Union. These things are vital and I believe that the Minister would be well supported by this House if he told the Treasury that we have to pay out more money. I am sorry to say so, but we need more money for pay and allowances and for better barrack accommodation. We have to accept the responsibility for relieving thousands of officers and men of the financial obligation which they have now, the financial loss which they have to meet in keeping two homes going, or in renting a house because no married quarters are available. We want a really visionary attitude by the man in charge of the job. I see no indication in the White Paper or in the speech of the Minister that there is a man who has a real grip of the problem.
6.10 p.m.
Mr. A. R. W. Low: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Northern Dorset (Mr. Byers) had to spoil

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his speech by beating around and trying to invent some reason to attack my hon. and right hon. Friends upon our attitude towards defence matters in general since the war. I should like to support what he has said about the great importance of Regular recruiting. At a later stage I shall have something to say about conditions of service and rates of pay.
I have no doubt that other hon. and gallant Friends of mine will reply in detail to his remarks about our attitude towards conscription. The hon. Gentleman has never really been able to understand that attitude. I doubt whether he has ever tried, but certainly he has never been able to appreciate that conscription for the active Forces is one thing and conscription for the Reserve Forces is another. To condemn conscription outright just because one does not like it for the active Forces is a view which one can hold. One can also hold the view, which I understand the hon. Gentleman holds, that conscription is wrong in any event, even though it may be the only way in which the Government can have a trained Reserve large enough to persuade their Allies that they mean what they say in their pacts. That is one of the most important considerations which must be in the mind of any Minister of Defence today.
I was sorry to see that the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) could not even last out for half of the hon. Gentleman's speech. I am sorry that he left because I have something to say, as I think I must, about the general line of his speech. I noticed that in criticising defence policy before the war the only criticisms he read out were made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). He never read out any criticisms made by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Moreover, he never mentioned that both my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition—though he was not in the Government—and I understand other right hon. Gentlemen also were given information by the Government at the time on which they could make their informative contributions to Debate. That situation is denied to my right hon. Friends today. It is worth reminding the House of the great difference to be seen between Debates on defence which take place now and Debates which took place before the war when right hon. Gentlemen other than
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those in the Government were properly informed.
I should also like to add, in reply to what the hon. Gentleman said, that he seems to have forgotten altogether that as a result of the policy of the pre-war Government there were Spitfires and Hurricanes with which our grand pilots were able to win the battle of Britain. I do not wish to add any further comment on those parts of his speech except to remind him of the record of his own party and to ask him whether he did what I know a great many members of my own party now in the House did, and that was to make a voluntary contribution to defence before the war by joining up in the volunteer Forces. Perhaps he should look at his own record before he begins inventing attacks on the records of others on points that he does not fully understand.
Mr. Bing: First, I ought to apologise for any discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman because I was not here at the start of his speech. I was merely calling the attention of the Official Reporters to the passages in the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) which I had quoted. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman said what he said just now. I think that I took some part in the defence of democracy in a really practical way. I was in Spain at a time when hon. Gentlemen on the opposite benches were saying, if I can quote from Mr. Duff Cooper, that the cause was not worth a single British life.
Mr. Low: After that intervention, I will pass to the defence problem of today, with which it is our duty to deal. The White Paper starts with a paragraph in which three main features of the problem are set out. Curiously enough, as it seems when one first reads the White Paper, the first feature set out is a long-term-problem. It is only when one comes to the second feature that one realises that the defence problem has a short-term and an immediate side to it. It may strike one that it is rather odd that the long-term feature should be expressed first, but it is not odd when one reads the whole of the document. Having read the White Paper carefully again and again, and having also read last year's White Paper repeatedly, I believe that His Majesty's Government have decided, not just last year but also this year, that the

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long-term features of defence still have priority over the short-term features.
I consider that the differences that arise in this House in the way in which we look at defence problems arise largely because my hon. and right hon. Friends do not agree with the Government that the long-term feature, important though it may be, should have such priority over the short-term feature. I believe that the last time we discussed this matter a number of the Government's supporters felt the same way about this. So it is that with the complete lack of information of our actual strength today, and with the open admission at the start of the White Paper that long-term needs still come first, many of us in the House must be extremely disquieted about our defence situation. Many hon. Members also must be disquieted not only that £750 million is being wasted and that 1,500,000 men may not be being used properly, but that at a time when we are trying to organise factual and collective resistance to Russian aggression we should not be doing it in the right way.
If the right hon. Gentleman had been able to come to the House and give some details, either in the White Paper or in his speech, of a satisfactory operational strength of our Forces, I might have been inclined to back him up in his policy for this year. He has stated that he cannot give us that information for reasons of secrecy. This is a question that has arisen in every Debate on defence since the war. The first reason given by the Government in support of their policy of denying information to the House is that, as a result of a study of captured German documents, it is thought that the pre-war practice gave a great deal of valuable information to the enemy. That may be so, but I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that in fact the form of the Estimates was changed in 1939. The 1939 Estimates gave a great deal of operational information which in those days it was thought safe to give. It seems likely that the information, if there was any, which fell into the hands of the enemy was information given in the much bulkier form of pre-1939 Estimates. That is a point on which I have never heard any right hon. Gentleman give a satisfactory answer.
Mr. Alexander: I should think the most satisfactory answer is that, as I
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think is fairly generally known now, captured German documents in our possession and in possession of the Allies, show quite clearly the information which accrued to the enemy and which was secured by them on the basis of the publicity at that time.
Mr. Low: But not, I understand, on the basis of the publicity before 1939, when the Estimates were different, and that is the point, if the hon. Gentleman would listen to me. The right hon. Gentleman is really taking the stand on exactly what he has always said on these matters—that he is not prepared to reconsider the matter or listen to points made, not only by amateurs in this House, but by men who have spent their whole life in these matters and who give him advice in another place.
Mr. Shackleton: Will the hon. Gentleman elucidate what type of information it is which he thinks it is safe to give? Will he be a little more specific on that point?
Mr. Low: I will be quite specific and say that I think it is perfectly safe that the right hon. Gentleman should tell us how many divisions the British Army has, and how many it is aimed to have by the end of the year; how many squadrons or groups the Royal Air Force has; and a good deal of the information which is already given to us in the Memorandum to the Navy Estimates, which is quite satisfactory to me.
I would remind the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Shackleton) that it is exactly that information which the United States is prepared to give to their public and to Congress. They have stated how many divisions they are aiming to have, and when; they have stated how many groups in their Air Force they are aiming to have, and when; they have stated how many men they are aiming to have in the mobile reserve, and a great many other things have been given to their public by way of so-called confidential information which enables Congress to understand the defence situation in the United States. I would emphasise to the right hon. Gentleman that, in the long run, he is bound to be doing harm rather than good to the defence services of this country by depriving the people of this country of the proper amount of information. As was pointed out yesterday,

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it probably does harm to recruiting, and thus secrecy in peace-time becomes a luxury which we cannot afford.
I would like to refer to the point made last year by the Prime Minister when he indicated that arrangements had been made to give confidential information to the Select Committee. I imagine that the right hon. Gentleman meant the Select Committee on Estimates. I am a member of that Committee, and an inquiry is going on, so I shall not refer to anything which has not been reported to the House. I want to put my own view to the Government. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman's attitude creates the great difficulties in which this House finds itself when debating defence.
Because of the present security precautions, too often we have to think of defence in terms of thousands of men and millions of pounds, of boots and shoes and of education. All these things are important. But the strength of this country lies, not in the number of men who can be put into the Forces, but in the skill and quality of its trained men, organised in formations, groups or squadrons and equipped with the equipment which we in this country are able to produce. If we are confined to debating defence against the background of numbers of men and millions of pounds, we are bound to say things which appear to suggest that we are completely misinformed. The Minister of Defence said that we appear to have overlooked important facts. Of course, we do, because we are not told about those important facts. The right hon. Gentleman may think that some of us are very ill-informed on these subjects, or that we are too young, but it is entirely because—
Wing-Commander Millington: It is not the fault of my right hon. Friend that the hon. Gentleman is too young.
Mr. Low: When the criticism is made that some of us are taking a rather curious view about these things, it should be remembered that we are only doing our best to contribute to the discussion on the defence of this country, and that we are only fulfilling what is our first responsibility to the people who elected us to see that this country is safe and secure.
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May I now pass from the security point to the main point which I want to stress today, which is that the Government are making a grave mistake in putting the needs of the long-term planning of the Forces on a higher priority than the need of short-term readiness to meet a war. I have already referred to paragraph 1 of the White Paper, and I now want to refer particularly to the paragraphs dealing with manpower and, secondly, to the paragraphs on equipment. In the paragraphs on manpower, the right hon. Gentleman recognises the importance of Regular Forces, but he seems to be remarkably over-satisfied with the state of affairs at the moment. Does he realise that the rate of recruiting has dropped—I am assured that he must—and also that the rate of wastage through the retirement and resignation of officers and from the ordinary ending of the engagements of other ranks is increasing? If the figures for resignations of Army officers given the other day for January are examined, they work out to an annual rate of about 820.
If these figures are a true example of what is happening, the right hon. Gentleman should be very concerned indeed about the matter, but instead, what do we find? In paragraph 38 of the White Paper, there are these Micawberish remarks:
"In pursuance of this aim it is their intention to do everything in their power to stimulate recruitment for the Regular Forces and the re-entry of time-expired men. It is their earnest hope that as time proceeds a combination of improved recruitment and engagement with diminished defence commitments will enable their aim to be realised."
We hope that will happen, but that is really catering only for the short-term deficiency in the number of Regulars in the Forces. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we have nothing like enough Regular soldiers either in the Army or the R.A.F. He knows that, but is he prepared to tell us that it is his hope that something better will happen?
I draw his attention to the words "diminished defence commitments." From where does he intend to get this diminution in defence commitments, when he is about to enter into a North Atlantic Pact, or we hope he is, and has already entered into a Western Union Pact, both of which may affect our ability to hold Western Union with the troops of other

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nations. If we are to have an Army and an Air Force of a fair size, in relation to the total requirements and the contributions from other countries, we must have these Forces at a pitch of immediate readiness, and only regular troops, both in the Air Force and the Army, can produce the divisions or groups at the high state of readiness which must be demanded.
Commander Pursey: They are in Germany now.
Mr. Low: An hon. Gentleman opposite says that the troops are on the Continent now. Of course, they are, but I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman can say that there are two divisions in Germany which are immediately ready to fight. Indeed, I am quite sure he cannot.
As to reserves, I suppose the right hon. Gentleman will be looking to the Class Z men. I raised this question the other day with the Secretary of State for War concerning volunteers for the Registered Reserve in the Army. There are very few volunteers; I am told that the number is about 200 out of a target of 20,000. If he wants to make use of these Class Z men at an early time after mobilisation, he has to give them at least some knowledge of what unit they are going to, and has probably got to give them some kind of refresher training.
I now pass from manpower to equipment. We are told, with regard to equipment, that there is to be a "modest instalment of modernisation." It is certainly about time, at least from the Army's point of view, that there was some modernisation of equipment. The policy of the Government has been that the Army should live on its fat from the end of the war. Living on its fat has been a very expensive pastime. I think it cost £13 million last year and £14,500,000 this year. There is no sign that this living on the fat and this modest instalment of modernisation are going to produce sufficient equipment so that we may have sufficient fully equipped divisions in the Army to cater for our obligations under Western Union or the North Atlantic Pact at an early moment. All these plans for the use of our war potential and for the change-over from peace to war, if ever that has to happen again, are very important, but those plans
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do not produce equipment on the date of mobilisation. I should like to be assured that there is up-to-date equipment ready for the small Force which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind to use in any sudden emergency.
From those two examples, it is clear to me that the right hon. Gentleman is still wedded, as I have said, to his priority for the long-term feature of defence. Of course, that long-term feature is important, and he is quite right to place great importance every year on research and development. At the same time, I do not think he should overemphasise how good it is that the money spent on research and development each year goes up. Of course it goes up, because, as one takes on new projects, one still has to pay for the old development projects. I am not suggesting that the right hon. Gentleman is wrong to consider the long-term feature, but I am suggesting that it is now his duty to give priority to short-term requirements, and to produce an Army and an Air Force that are immediately efficient and immediately ready for an emergency. I do not think that can be done unless he gets more Regular soldiers and unless he alters his equipment plan.
Exactly how he should get more Regulars into the Forces is a matter for others, but clearly he must increase the pay by 25 per cent, until it is in line with the average civilian earnings. At present, it has only been increased by 10 per cent. I have worked out these figures, as I expect the right hon. Gentleman or his staff have done, and it is obvious that there will have to be a substantially greater increase in pay and a substantial improvement in conditions before he is going to get the Regulars he requires.
Mr. Alexander indicated dissent.
Mr. Low: The right hon. Gentleman still shakes his head. It is clear from what he has told us today that he remains wedded to this priority of the long-term feature, but I ask him—and I shall end my speech on this note—how the Atlantic Pact, Western Union, the British Commonwealth defence arrangements, and world defence against Communism can successfully be carried out, unless we have an Air Force, an Army and a Navy which are ready for an emergency—not just

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ready with any old weapons and untrained, but ready, skilled, trained and fully equipped.
Mr. Alexander: If the hon. Gentleman will do me the honour of studying my speech in more detail in the morning than he was able to do as I was delivering it today, he will see that his estimation of my preference is not correct. I did not say that I was banking on the long-term policy at all; I said that the aspect of some of these matters could not be determined until we had finished our consultations about the Pact, and saw how they could be fitted in.
6.36 p.m.
Mr. Shackleton: I am sure that the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Low) would welcome an early opportunity to correct a very unfortunate impression which he gave at the beginning of his speech. When my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) was attacking the record of the party opposite, he was attacking their political record and not their personal record. I must confess that, knowing the hon. Member for Blackpool as I do, I am extremely surprised that he should have chosen to make the remarks he did with reference to the personal record of my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch. I realise it was a deliberate attack, because I saw the hon. Member scanning Dod before making his speech. Just because my hon. Friend, like the hon. Member for Blackpool, is modest and does not give his war record in Dod, there was no reason for the hon. Member to make such a mistake as he did. I think I should point out that my hon. Friend saw a great deal of active service. He was wounded, and his friends know he has suffered a great deal from those wounds. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Blackpool would wish to withdraw his implications straightaway.
Mr. Low: So far as I am aware, I made no remarks whatsoever about the conduct of the hon. Member for Horn-church during the war; I was fully aware of his service, during the war. Indeed, I think that, on other occasions, I have said not just polite, but most sincere things in approval of what he did.
Mr. Shackleton: I can only say that the hon. Member certainly gave that unfortunate impression, but I am very glad
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that he has cleared it up because it is the sort of thing which is not fitting in a Debate of this kind.
The hon. Member, like hon. Members on the Liberal benches—who, I am sorry to say, have disappeared, leaving us in some difficulty when we come to deal with Liberal defence policy—attacked the Government on the subject of secrecy. It is, of course, difficult to judge the Liberal Party defence record since it took place long before most of the hon. Members in this House were in a position to judge. One of their more notable achievements was, of course, the sacking of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) from the Admiralty at a time when he had given some rather signal service to this country at the beginning of the First World War. On this subject of secrecy, I wish to take up straightaway the point made by the hon. Member for Blackpool. He has suggested that it would be possible to give details of the number of divisions and squadrons. I am not competent to discuss the value of that information from the point of view of the Army, but I can say that to give the number of squadrons, or even to give the establishment of squadrons, in the Air Force would be of no value to this House in assessing the efficiency of our defences, and I am sure that any hon. Member must agree that the same thing would naturally apply in relation to the Army. At any rate, with regard to the Air Force, I can only say that the establishment of the number of squadrons aimed at has very little significance. Availability, serviceability and other matters are the real test.
Before the war, one could look up in many books the first line strength of various nations in the air. But that was absolutely without any significance when it came to the actual battlefield. Therefore, unless the Government are in a position to give a great deal more information than just a list of divisions, or a list of squadrons, I do not see that it can be of any use except, possibly, to a would-be enemy who will be able to use it as a basis for subsequent intelligence work. There is no need for me to go into the methods employed in that direction, but certain types of information which, by themselves. convey very little, are essential in the build-up of that work.

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Nonetheless, it is obviously a very real difficulty which this House is facing today in discussing Defence Estimates. It is a problem to which I, for one, cannot see the solution. I am prepared to accept from the Government that they consider their decision wiser and I do not doubt for one moment that they have been advised by the Service chiefs in the matter. At the same time, I would ask them at least to argue a little with the Service chiefs before accepting the request for secrecy. It is, however, a thing which I feel is of no great significance to this Debate because even if a little more information were given I do not believe it would add very much to the Debate.
The Conservative Party have moved an Amendment which is designed to attack the Government's handling of defence matters. It is clear from the type of broadside which has been delivered in support of that Amendment that they are quite unable to sustain their case. They may argue that they are firing their broadsides blindfolded or without the aid of radar. It is obvious to every hon. Member in the House that they are not in a position to make a really effective attack on the Government's policy. I suggest it is perhaps unfortunate that they have not brought the right hon. Member for Woodford to sustain them in this attack. We do not wish again to draw attention too strongly to his absence on other notable occasions, such as the Debate on the Estimates for the Health Service a short time ago, but I do suggest that if he is their great expert, it would have been a wise thing for him to come and make the case, because it is quite obvious that with the artillery which the Opposition are using today the case will fail lamentably.
There are points of criticism which could be made on the detail of the Government's policy. I feel, as many hon. Members feel, that the Ministry of Defence must play a more positive role than it has been playing. I realise that there are the greatest difficulties in front of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence; nevertheless I believe that one obvious job the Ministry should perform is not only co-ordination at the higher levels of the Services, not only co-ordination of staffs and so on, but co-ordination at the lower level. There are
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certain arms of the Services which will be continually engaged in association with other Services, and it was one of our greatest weaknesses during the war that too often those branches of the Services, which time and again have to co-operate—I do not mean just on the beachheads and in particular types of operation but in a continuous series of operations—were abysmally ignorant of what their opposite numbers in the other Services were about and of their outlook.
I suggest that the Minister might well ask some of his advisers, preferably even some of his scientists, to look into that problem. I suggest, as I have suggested previously, that there is a need for the Ministry of Defence to turn active research on to the whole subject of coordination and not just employ the staff officers who meet to reach the lowest common denominator of agreement. The Ministry should turn people on to the problem and regard it as a special problem. They should use methods of operational research which my right hon. Friend mentioned as being introduced in the last two years of the war. That, however, is a point on which I can correct him; they were used for several years, long before 1944, with great success.
I have another anxiety, and this is an anxiety which I am sure is shared by hon. Members on this side of the House, although I do not know whether hon. Mmebers opposite will share it. It is the vast, and I may say growing, size of the Royal Navy. We realise that at present it is necessary to maintain certain forces which could be used in the near future, but why should we want 12 capital ships, of which eight are in commission, with the number increasing, even though many of them are in the nature of fleet carriers. I find it very difficult to understand that, in the light of the strategic appreciation of the position with regard to a possible enemy, which appreciation I am sure my right hon. Friend has made. This is a point which, I feel, calls for an extraordinary amount of strength of character on the part of my right hon. Friend. Indeed, I feel it is almost too much to ask of any man to face up to the entrenched power of the Admiralty. Nevertheless, it has to be done. I suggest it is a job which my right hon. Friend, with all his experience of Admirals, must now have learned how to do.

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I do not want to labour the point too much, but it is a fact that we are spending a very large sum on the Navy and it is my belief that a larger part of that sum might go to the long-term development which hon. Members on this side of the House, I am sure, are convinced is the right approach to the problems of defence. I realise, and we all must realise, that it is esential to try to achieve some form of operational readiness. Nevertheless, I have sufficient hope, and perhaps too much optimism, that these forces are not likely to be required in the near future and that the really important energy should go into long-term development. There is the added advantage in placing that money, say, to atomic energy development or guided missile development that one day, if, God willing, it is not required for war purposes, it can have very great significance for peaceful purposes. I hope, therefore, that the Government will continue to persevere in their devotion to the long-term approach, not only from the point of view of our defensive needs but from the point of view of the community.
It will be clear that unless the Conservative Party can produce more effective arguments against the policy of the Government, then moving their Amendment is as valueless from the point of view of contributing to our defence as was their performance in a previous Debate to the Health Estimates.
6.47 p.m.
Commander Maitland: I am most grateful to you, Sir, for having given me an opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Shackleton). I will do my best to comply with my promise to you to be as short as possible. I am afraid I cannot answer the hon. Member in the way he would probably expect, because I want to draw the attention of the House to what constitutes a very grave menace to this country.
There are many ways of killing people—by dropping atom bombs on them, by gassing them, by using those guided weapons of the far-distant, or not-so-fardistant, future about which the hon. Member for Preston was talking. There is one certain way to defeat this country, however, and that is by starvation. We know to our cost in the 1914–18 war, and again in the war which recently
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ended, how dangerously near we came to the point of starvation. In this connection I want to follow up a point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) when he was discussing our lack of efficient escort vessels. I do not think the House realises that when the war ended the submarine was in the ascendancy—not of course in numbers, but certainly in efficacy. It had once more got the better of the surface craft. Since that time a great deal of progress has been made and fewer submarines are now required to do the work of many.
Any nation which sees the possibility of having this country as an enemy must take note of these facts. Today, Russia presumably conceives that she may one day be at war with this country. I am told—and I believe the information which I have received—that Russia today has between 250 and 300 submarines. The fact that there has been a considerable increase in the capabilities and speed of submarines means that large numbers of the escort vessels which we had in the war, and which protected us so gallantly, have become useless. However, there is not one word in the White Paper about any effort to replace the escort vessels with faster vessels. I realise that it is a very difficult task at the moment to undertake a rebuilding programme of that nature, but the fact that a thing is difficult, does not mean that the best way to tackle it is to do nothing about it at all.
Mr. Shackleton: Equally it is not the best way to have a large number of capital ships.
Commander Maitland: That seems to me a very good point. I think that our needs at the moment are so desperate in regard to these escort vessels that, as we have but a certain amount of money to spend, it would be far better to direct it to the building of escort vessels than to use it in some other directions which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. Then there is the question of the speed of our merchant ships. Just as the submarine has become faster, just as it has made the existing merchant ships easier targets, so if we can increase the speed of our merchant ships so we in effect diminish the efficacy of submarines. I know only too well that it is economically very difficult to try to in-

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crease the speed of merchant ships, but I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should call a conference of the shipbuilders and shipowners, and perhaps Lloyd's as well, and ask them whether they can think of any way in which the speed of merchant ships can be increased. Possibly a few extra knots would be of great advantage to us in time of need.
Now I turn to what I think is, perhaps, the most important matter of all, the question of the distribution of manpower. First, there is the Territorial Army. In paragraph 4 the White Paper says:
"In particular, measures have been put in hand to ensure that the Territorial Army organisation is developed to allow it to handle the National Service Reservists who will begin to enter in 1950."
Of course. But it is common knowledge that recruitment for the Territorial Army has not been a success. It would be quite contrary to good policy to attempt to disguise that. That is the sort of thing we mean when we talk about the secretive nature of this document. One of the things militating against recruitment for the Territorial Army, particularly in the country, is the lack of certainty among people in those occupations which are under the Control of Engagement Order. For example. what happens to a man who joins the Territorial Army under the existing arrangements? If war breaks out, he will go back to agriculture. But what happens to him if the Control of Engagement Order is lifted? Or is it never to be lifted? It is this uncertainty which is delaying recruiting. I think it is essential that a register of people who can be called up should be compiled. We have heard no mention of that yet.
Recruiting for the Regular Forces is of the very greatest importance. I agree very much with the spokesman of the Liberal Party today, the hon. Member for Northern Dorset (Mr. Byers), who is not present now, that we must raise the standard. Why, therefore, is there in the White Paper this curious remark that it is intended that the conditions of service should make a wide appeal to compete with other careers on "reasonably good terms"? Why should there be that qualification? Why should not the terms be equal? It seems ridiculous
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that the word "reasonable"—which has come to mean something, perhaps, not strictly correct by the old definition—should be inserted.
It is quite clear that after any great war these difficulties must exist. There is nothing abnormal about them. This is the normal situation after any great war, after times of great danger and difficulty. However, there is surely one shield we ought always to have over us at this time, and that consists in the knowledge and proficiency of the men who fought in the preceding war, the Class Z Reserve. That is a great asset, but it is diminishing. The speed at which it is diminishing ought to be known. I maintain that the only way in which that can be done is by having a plan of mobilisation made in all detail—planned, as it were, on D-Day lines. It should be a plan in which a great many details are taken into account, by which every single man or woman capable of joining the Forces is known—by which it is known where they all are, whether in industry or agriculture, and which of them are fit enough to join up. By this plan the Minister of Defence could know where they are all to go.
That may seem a tremendous task. It may cost a great deal. However, I am certain that a scheme of mobilisation such as that is essential if we are to know whether or not we are to fulfil our commitments. Unless we know what is to happen when we mobilise, how can we possibly know how to decide when the stages of the long-term plan are to be effected? Without this plan we shall not know the rate at which our asset of manpower is being diminished. Nor can we know what contribution we can make in common with the Western European countries or with those joining in the Atlantic Pact. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will answer that point—whether it is not advisable, really and truly advisable, that we should have a complete overall mobilisation plan. It is laid down, after all, as one of the great duties of the Minister of Defence in the White Paper which sets out his duties and which we debated nearly two years ago.
I think that our whole defence situation is in a very serious state and I will conclude by quoting a remark I read in the

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"Economist" the other day, which referred to our defence situation:
"We are in a muddle, and we have no British Eisenhower to whom the problem can be handed for solution since our own counterpart sits on the Front Opposition Bench."
7.0 p.m.
Mr. Crawley: The remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) concerning capital ships caused, I think, some embarrassment to the hon. and gallant Member for South Paddington (Vice-Admiral Taylor). I will not follow him in that discussion. I should like to concentrate on a rather different aspect of the main problem.
The main problem is simply stated. It is that we need to strengthen our defences, but every penny that we have to spend to do so, jeopardises our economic recovery. The main thing which strikes me in thinking about this matter is the fundamental change which has come over our position now from what it was before the last war. That change is really this: Whereas then we were a great military Power planning to meet an equal military power or a Power slightly greater, today we are not a first-rank military Power, and we are planning to meet an infinitely superior military Power.
Therefore, in planning our defence we have to plan not a metropolitan force, not a force in which we have the cadres of every arm, not a force which is going to be the core of an imperial force, but a force which is going to be a part, and a subsidiary part, of a hemispherical defence. I do not feel that our plan, although a great deal has been done in that direction, has really gone far enough. I believe that we have to specialise more, and plan more narrowly.
I know that there are some people to whom the fact that we are dependent on the United States in a military sense is anathema, but it is really no longer a question of argument. The fact is that had it not been for the presence of United States troops in Europe, what has happened in Hungary and Czechoslovakia would have happened in France, Italy and Germany, and our position would have been precarious in the extreme. Further, American troops, as we know, whatever the formal commitments which are in existence, and whatever the formal wording of the Atlantic Pact, are going
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to remain in Europe until, in the opinion of the Government of the United States, security is achieved. Therefore, we know that should war break out, which we all hope and have good reason to believe may not happen, America is bound to be involved. My point is, therefore, that whatever the wording of any Atlantic Pact, we must plan our own defences of all arms on the assumption of immediate American assistance. If we fail to plan in that way, if we allow any hangover of the days when we had to think that we might have to fight a whole war alone, and not merely take the first brunt of it alone, to influence us, then we shall be dispersing our strength industrially and militarily and fail to carry out our share of this hemispherical defence, which is to take the first brunt and act as a spearhead.
I admit at once that a great deal of progress has been made in the coordination of our defences with those of Western Union and of the United States. I am aware of the very great interchange of information and of planning, which we have had described in the White Paper, and which is taking place on the supply side. Nevertheless, I think that the actual form—and I am speaking of only one arm of our Forces—that our Air Force at the moment is taking shows that, although there are ideas and hopes of full co-ordination, those ideas and hopes have not yet permeated the Service itself or the industries which lie behind it.
In the air what, in fact, is the problem? One has only to read the better American magazines to find much fuller figures than we get here. I do not think that there is much question that the Russians have—and we are always thinking only of one conceivable enemy in this context—about 400 first-line modern bombers. They are not jet-bombers but they are, in fact, so fast that nothing short of a jet-fighter is any defence against them. We know also that the Russians have a much larger number of troop-carrying aircraft, and a larger number still of what I would describe as a close-support aircraft which they use as long-range artillery. That is going to be the immediate menace—for we are never going to be the aggressor—which we have to meet. We have to plan to meet the first onslaught and to hold the line in Europe, as far out in Europe as we can, and to give time to the rest of the forces of

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the Western Hemisphere to come to our assistance.
I know the argument which the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) used about retaliation and attack being the best form of defence. I admit that is true. What I want to suggest is that we alone are not in a position to do both things: We have not the economic power both to build up adequate defences and meet the initial attack which may be launched against us, and to build up a really efficient means of retaliation in the air, either by medium or long-range bombers. I suggest that to build up a sufficient fighter defence is in fact going to take all the resources which we can devote to air defence. It costs now about three times as much to build any aircraft as it did in 1939. It costs nearly 10 times as much to build a modern jet-bomber as it does to build a jet-fighter. I want to ask those who have been, quite naturally, asking questions about bombers, whether they have ever worked out what in terms of industrial outlay a really large fleet of jet-bombers means. Have they asked themselves the question: Can we, with these vastly greater costs, attempt to carry out the functions both of defence and attack?
How, in fact, are we equipped? One does not need to have any secret information to know roughly what is the position. If one goes to exhibitions of the Society of British Aircraft Manufacturers, reads the American magazines and watches squadrons flying in the sky, one can know pretty well what is the position. Our need is fighters. Our need is jet-propelled fighters and, above all, night jet-propelled fighters. What is the position? In regard to night jet-propelled fighters, Lord Henderson, in another place yesterday, told us what the position was. He said that we had none. That, of course, is perfectly true. We have adaptations which we hope will prove sound, but it is a very serious fact which the whole world knows and the recent exercise has demonstrated, that we have not adequate night-fighter defence. I am not blaming the Government for that. I am anxious, however, that all possible resources, and I think greater resources than is the case at the moment, should be devoted to filling that gap.
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What about day fighters? We have the two best day fighters in existence. I do not think that there is any dispute about that; but equally we have not got them in adequate numbers. I know the reason—the breakdown and run-down and so on—but are we, in fact, increasing our numbers as fast as our industrial air potential allows, or are we dissipating some of it on what I suggest are unnecessary forms of armament? I shall not say how many factories I think there are, but I think I know the rate at which our fighters are produced, and I believe that it is not nearly fast enough. The reason was given yesterday in another place, and was hinted at by the right hon. Member for West Bristol: we are devoting a considerable part of our resources to the development of bombers—and to the development of jet bombers. The fact is that there are nearly as many prototype jet-bombers as there are prototype jet-fighters.
Now, if I am right about the function we must play in Western Hemisphere defence, does that really make sense? Does it make sense to keep a large part of our aircraft industry waiting to produce a fleet of jet-bombers, which I personally very much doubt that we can afford to develop to any considerable extent in peace-time, and wonder if we should be in a position to develop in war-time? Does that fit in with our requirements? In my opinion, until we have built up our fighter defence to the right strength it is nothing short of madness to devote even the amount of our resources that we are now devoting to the development of bombers. Surely it is obvious that there is a clear demarcation of functions in the air between ourselves—and by that I mean the Brussels Treaty Powers, the Western European Powers—and the United States of America? It is here that fighters are going to be used, in this country and on the Continent of Europe. It is we, first and foremost, who will use them. We have great experience of fighters; we are producing better fighters than the United States of America; and we surely must have that as absolutely our first priority.
Why, then, are we devoting so much to the development of bombers? I take exactly the opposite point of view from that taken by the right hon. Member for West Bristol, and I am not in the least

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daunted by the fact that that very distinguished airman Lord Portal should support him. After all, Lord Portal was one of the creators and one of the great commanders of our great bomber force in the last war, and one expects him to hold that point of view. I can only say that there are just as eminent men in the other branches of the Royal Air Force who have the opposite point of view, and as there is a difference of expert opinions it is a matter on which the Government and we in this House must decide.
But have the Government really got down to these details with the United States? I know that discussions are taking place, but are the Government really urging the United States to look at our fighters, to consider the problem of fighter defence as a whole, and to consider whether they ought not to use our fighters and produce our fighters in the United States to a certain extent? It is not generally known that, although the United States fighter is faster than ours, and has greater endurance, it could not really be used in this country: it needs longer runways than we have got; also, it would not be suitable because it does not climb fast enough to be an effective defence from our point of view when we have to meet the initial attack.
Does it really make sense that we and the United States should be competing in the production of fighters at this stage, when we know that we have got the right type of fighters to meet the danger? Would it not make more sense if we coordinated our efforts in that respect? Would it not make more sense if in regard to bombers, where they must inevitably be ahead of us, we also co-ordinated our efforts; if Bomber Command used American aircraft which I think they could easily do; if we put our own jet engines into them for experimentation, rather than build bombers of our own which may never be used? Ought we not to run both great arms of the force in conjunction? I suggest that unless we do this, we shall be failing to take the one real advantage that accrues to us from the change in our strategical position.
We are no longer an independent military Power. We are a dependent Power. Therefore, we ought to be able to make real economies by relying on the United States for a considerable part of our force. I believe that the Government are thinking along these lines, but I do not
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believe that they are taking action energetically enough or fast enough. Yet, if they do not do these things, I do not believe they will make the only large-scale economy which could be made and yet keep our defences in order.
7.15 p.m.
Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I do not propose to trespass on the patience of the House for any great length of time this evening. I am suffering, as are many other hon. Members on both sides, from a feeling of disquiet, a feeling that all is not well in our defence plans, and I want to begin by saying a word or two on the subject of secrecy. I am not at all convinced in my own mind that this secrecy is not so much a matter of security as of fear of disclosing the truth. I believe that the reason our allies the Americans find it very easy to disclose their figures is because they are not in the least bit ashamed of them. If the Government had, as the Americans have, 12,000 front line aircraft they would not mind telling the world. I wish I could feel a little more certain that it really is a question of security and not of fear. I should also like to know very much whether it is the view of the Chiefs of Staff, or merely that of the Cabinet, that there should be this secrecy.
I do not believe it is possible for this House or the country fully to realise and appreciate the position unless we are told a little more. I am sure it breeds confidence to disclose as much as possible—and we have been told extraordinarily little so far. In the past it has been our habit to win the last battle; but just for a change I should be happier to feel that we would be able to win the first battle. I have said before, and I shall say again many times, that next time there will not be any breathing space: it will be a press button affair on the lines of Pearl Harbour, so that we must have in readiness not only a force on the Continent to act with a united Europe, but also a force in this country capable of defeating what I have already alluded to in former spe•eches—the danger which may exist from an airborne attack. The other day General Eisenhower said that the ultimate result of any war will depend on the ability to act and react in the first 60 days. In my view, that should be a motto hung over the beds of the Minister of Defence and his colleagues on the Government Front Bench.

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I wonder if we are all aware of the object of the North Atlantic Pact? I believe that the object is to prevent war, and we shall only prevent the risk of war by being strong, and by showing that we are strong. The Government must be aware of the challenge. If they are not I can assure them that the whole Continent is. As I go about this country I am alarmed to discover how little awareness there is of the danger. I do not wish to be in any way alarmist, but coming back to this country from the Continent after speaking to the people abroad, one has a feeling that the people of this country do not realise what may face them in the future. It is in order to prevent what has happened in Eastern and Central Europe that we are disturbed about our defences.
I am in agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) in what he said about long-term and short-term policies. I was entirely behind the Government in their original long-term view; but I am now completely convinced that that long-term view is quite out-of-date, that there is a very urgent and immediate short-term problem which must be solved, and solved very, very quickly. There is for this short-term plan a total absence of overall directive to the junior ranks in all the Services, within which they should be immediately capable of training and building up a detailed organisation. It is high time that they were given a better chance of being able to see what it is they have in front of them so that they can become more efficient in their present tasks.
I want to say a word about the antiaircraft defence of this country. I am worried when I see fine Territorial units, who fought in active roles in the various theatres of war, being turned into heavy anti-aircraft regiments. I do not criticise the system or make a remark like that unless I have a possible solution of the problem to suggest. I can assure the Secretary of State for War that one of the reasons why two or three units are not getting recruits is because they were very fine field regiments in the war. I had the honour to have one of them under my command. They have not succeeded in recruiting many of their old personnel, because anti-aircraft defence does not interest them. They want something which is in the more active line.
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I believe there is in this country a large potential reserve of anti-aircraft gunners. They exist at the moment in the potential reserved occupations in industry. The Government must make up their minds what are to be reserved occupations, and I believe when they do these men in their own areas could man the gun sites and anti-aircraft defences in their areas. That can be done without having to call on the Territorial Army except to a small extent. I throw that suggestion out. I am not in a position to give a categorical statement on this matter, because I have not the figures available, but I throw it out as a suggestion to the back room boys.
Wing-Commander Millington: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggest the creation three and a half years after the war, of a Home Guard for antiaircraft purposes?
Brigadier Prior-Palmer: At the present moment the Territorial anti-aircraft units have been asked to do this work. They have not got the numbers, and, therefore, we would be starting from scratch if we did as I suggest and transferred the responsibility to the men I have just mentioned. There will be no time lag in the matter.
I have a feeling that the Government are enveloped in a fog of uncertainty. They do not seem to be able to size up this problem. They will not tell the country quite frankly what is the problem and give the clarion call to action. There are too many people going about saying that they have heard so many contradictory statements from the Government that they are not clear in their minds what it is the Government want them to do. I often wonder whether the fault lies in the Cabinet or in the Chiefs of Staffs. Is it that the Chiefs of Staffs have put up suggestions and plans to His Majesty's Government which have not been accepted, or is it that the Chiefs of Staffs have not put up the proper comprehensive plans because they are fearful of the reaction which may come on them from the Cabinet? The fundamental fault lies somewhere there. It seems to me as if there may be men in that hierarchy. who are lacking in imagination and possibly in experience.
Let us remember that it takes a very long time for the experience gained by

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the man in the front line to percolate to the top. It is generally a year before what is learned in the front line is appreciated in the rear and implemented from the top. We have not made enough use of the younger commanders who ended the war in the front line. Those are the people who should be planning the future war. They learned lessons which never got to the ears of the people sitting in the high headquarters well behind the front line.
An example of what I am saying can be seen at the present moment. We have seen a report of recent amphibious training. If there ever was an example of winning the last war at this juncture that is one. Such training was necessary during the last war, when it was perfectly obvious that we were going to invade the Continent, but surely the problem which will arise in the future is how to eradicate the initial weakness from which we have always suffered in the past, namely, the inability to stave off the initial attack. That is what we should be practising at the moment, and not the reverse landing from boats off the shores of Malta or wherever it may have been. That is typical of the mind of some senior officers. They have learned one special lesson, and they are not prepared to learn any other.
One of our chief weaknesses has been the initial defensive. We have failed in two wars in that. There are an enormous number of lessons to be learned from the early days of the last war in France. Those are the lessons which ought to be studied now and that is the type of exercise which should be carried out today. I rather agreed with what was said by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley). I think possibly it would be as well if the Americans produced the bombers and we produced the fighters, with the exception that such things as light and medium bombers should be produced here. We are eminently suited to provide them. We shall not wage any battle successfully in the future unless we have complete air superiority over the battlefield. That was one of the reasons why we failed in the first battle of France and why we succeeded in the second battle of France. Light and medium bombers are required for that class of warfare.
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On the subject of equipment I should like to ask what progress has been made with regard to standardisation. Are we anywhere near one type of soft vehicle with interchangeability of parts? Standardisation should not cover only vehicles but staff duties and organisation. Is this being done, and if so to what extent? I should very much like to hear a comforting reply from the Prime Minister. I had a Question down on the Order Paper the other day on the subject of spare parts. Unfortunately I was not here to ask it, because I was ill, but I should like to know whether there are no spare parts available at the moment for mechanical vehicles. The same mistake was made at the beginning of the last war. We ended up with 80 per cent. spare parts for every vehicle. The American figure was 120 per cent., but at this moment we have got none. No doubt if that is inaccurate I shall be corrected, but that is the advice I have received from people coming back from Germany, including Members of Parliament and officers and men on leave. I shall not pursue that further because it does not come within the purview of this Debate.
Unless we get some kind of formation training going at an early date—and by that I mean proper divisional exercises with live ammunition—we shall never he able to put into the field at a moment's notice a force capable of withstanding any form of attack. But it is absolutely vital. We cannot collect men together at the last minute, put them into uniforms and set them to fight against overwhelming numbers. We must never endeavour to compete with a vast Continental Power in numbers. What we require is a small but very highly-trained and efficient force with immense fire power. We contemplate fighting an enemy with enormous numbers, but he is not very subtle and his system of supply is weak, he relies entirely on his numbers to get him through. I am certain that with highly-trained troops backed by overwhelming fire power, one British battalion could hold up a brigade almost indefinitely, but without that fire power they will not. It is different from the lesson we learned from the Germans, for they had numbers, efficiency, fire power, and air power.
I hope the Prime Minister will give us a little more comfort and a little more elucidation so that we can feel that the

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vast sum of money which we are voting and which we support is being spent in the proper way and not wasted, and so that we may sleep in our beds more securely in the future.
7.32 p.m.
Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: I have a great deal of sympathy with much of what the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) said, and I agree with him that there must be an efficient short-term policy as well as a long-term policy. I have never sympathised with the pacifist point of view, and if we are to have defence, we must have efficient defence, and that entails an effective short-term policy as well as a long-term policy. I rather agreed with certain aspects of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said about the obscurity of the White Paper, although I cannot agree with him as to the necessity or advisability of completely revealing the plans of our striking forces. There may be reason in a complete revelation in a country like America which has overwhelming strength, but we know that we have not got such overwhelming strength, and I would not press the Government to reveal details of our power and striking forces.
I agreed more with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) when he expressed the Opposition point of view that there was obscurity as to the overall plan and the general direction of defence. That is quite different from regretting obscurity about technical details. I do not think that we should have such details, but I feel—I think the Prime Minister is aware of this—that there is a good deal of needless obscurity as to our overall plan and the general set-up and direction of defence policy. If we need defence, we need proper defence. It must be related to potential threats, and to our world-wide obligations. It must also be technically efficient and, last but not least, we must be assured that it is economically organised and that the results we get for the enormous expenditure are commensurate with that sum. But that lies more particularly in the realm of the Estimates which will be dealt with later.
However, before those four points are dealt with, there is something still more basic, and we must face up to it, and the
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people of the country expect us to face up to it. Has everything been done not only to preserve peace but also to promote peace? Has everything possible been done to make this great and expensive rearmament unnecessary? Last year's White Paper on Defence contained this very excellent sentence:
"The supreme object of British policy must continue to be the prevention of war."
That was a clear, decisive and valuable statement, and I am sorry that it is not matched by a similar statement in the present White Paper. Certainly there is a good deal of talk about our obligations under the United Nations Charter, but there is nothing like that statement. I only hope that although it is not restated, it is still the policy which dominates the minds of the Minister of Defence and the other Service Ministers, because I must confess that, having worked for very many years in the Socialist cause, it is rather a humiliating experience for me to have to support an expenditure of about £760 million on defence after three and a half years of a Labour Government.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Why has the hon. Member to do that?
Mr. Chamberlain: I feel that there is an obligation to do so. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) takes quite a different view—I am not at the moment necessarily questioning that that expenditure is necessary: it may be, but I think the case has yet to be established—but whatever view we take about it, my hon. Friend and I will both feel that it is a humiliating state of affairs that there is this enormous expenditure on preparation for war, even though it may be called preparation for defence.
Has everything possible been done, in the background of this tremendous Estimate, actively to promote peace? I am not convinced, I regret to say, that everything possible has been done. The Prime Minister probably will not thank me for referring again to the proposal which some of us made a little while ago to him that he should initiate a meeting of the Big Three—himself, the President of the United States and Marshal Stalin. I am afraid that he rather brushed that aside. I am well

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aware that one can immediately argue all sorts of difficulties on a project of that kind, and raise all sorts of objections, but I am convinced—I know that other hon. Members agree with me—that the present impasse will only be resolved when there is a top-level meeting. Nothing else at the present moment and in the present circumstances can possibly get over the impasse which we have now reached. Had such a meeting taken place, it might well have had its reflection in our statement on defence today, and I regret that the attempt was not made.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Why have not previous meetings had that effect?
Mr. Chamberlain: There have not been any similar meetings of the Big Three for a very long time. I am talking not about meetings of Foreign Ministers, but a meeting of our Prime Minister with the head of the Russian State and the head of the American State.
Clearly, when one talks about potential threats, one is talking, as hon. Members have said—although perhaps the Government will not declare themselves so clearly—about Russia, and the particular point of danger and difficulty is the Berlin situation. In common with most hon. Members on this side, I support the stand we made. It was right, but I hope that as soon as possible the Prime Minister will make clear to us exactly what the situation is in reference to the Committee which studied that problem recently under the United Nations organisation, and appeared to have come to some decision which has not so far been translated into effective action. I hope we shall hear more about that as soon as possible.
In regard to the Atlantic Pact, several Members have indicated what is undoubtedly the fact, that we are very much in the dark as to our defence obligations generally until we know more about its contents. The Minister of Defence told us that this factor of our planning must remain indeterminate. I quite appreciate his difficulties, but he lifted the veil of obscurity just a little when he talked about "categories of responsibilities." Will he or the Prime Minister go a little further and explain more about what is meant by "categories of responsibilities "? I appreciate
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the difficulty of revealing the exact setup and intentions of that Pact at the moment, but we are very much in the dark in discussing the needs and general set-up of our defence on the eve of revelations that are quite indeterminate at the moment.
I asked recently whether we should be under an automatic obligation to become a belligerent if war broke out, as indeed it might, between America and Russia, but I got no satisfactory reply. I cannot say whether the Pact will make that clear, when we know its terms, but I think I am right in saying that the American Congress will be consulted before any warlike action is undertaken. My own hope is that similarly we shall not be committed automatically in the event of hostilities elsewhere.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: May I ask the hon. Member whether he believes in collective security or not?
Mr. Chamberlain: I certainly believe in collective security. I was not questioning it, or even questioning the desirability of an Atlantic pact. Surely it is very different when one asks about automatic obligations on certain matters. Collective security certainly, but surely it must he left to us to determine whether at any particular moment and in any particular circumstances there is an obligation for us to participate.
Mr. Alexander: I have heard my hon. Friend ask me this question before. What we are doing is to provide a measure of collective security in those areas under Article 51—we should have been glad to see it spread over the whole world. I am sure my hon. Friend would not wish us to escape the obligations we undertook under the United Nations on the wider basis of collective security, but surely if we cannot get wider security, he would not wish us to escape the narrower collective security?
Mr. Chamberlain: There is no desire to shuffle out of our obligations under the United Nations or elsewhere, but it is important to note that America will have the advantage of reference to Congress. All I am suggesting is that before we are committed, Parliament should have the same opportunity of saying "Yes" or "No."

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Another matter, in connection with our commitments and obligations, which is very much in the minds of many of us, is the obligations we have undertaken under the Economic Aid Agreement. We are already committed pretty far and entangled under Article 5 in regard to obligations for stock-piling and such like, and I only hope that the Government will bear these obligations and entanglements in mind when negotiating the Atlantic Pact.
As I indicated in an intervention this afternoon, I feel that there is considerable obscurity in regard to the Pacific. I have tried on a number of occasions in this House and elsewhere, to discover some kind of plan vis-à-vis the Pacific and American strength in the Pacific. America is extremely strongly entrenched in the Pacific, and, as is well known, she already has certain islands that were Japanese mandated territory which are now special American strategic areas. I feel that Australia and New Zealand are also waiting for a stronger lead and a clearer indication from us of what is to be our policy in the Pacific. Have we any forces in the Pacific at the present time? I very much doubt whether we have.
I raised the question on the Colonial Naval Defence Bill, but the Minister responsible for that Measure was unable to speak on the wider implications of our Pacific policy. The fact remains that we should have some light in the darkness on that subject. The right hon. Member for West Bristol also raised the question of Commonwealth relations. He said quite rightly that the difference in communications have entirely altered the state of affairs in reference to our defence relationship with other parts of the Commonwealth. It is really not enough to say, as the Minister of Defence said, that we are in close consultation and are engaged in joint planning. We should know something more than that. We ought to know the direction of our planning, what we are endeavouring to do and where the obligations and commitments are to lie as between this country and other parts of the Commonwealth.
Mr. Alexander: We get no such publication of information as to the intentions and plans of Moscow and her satellites.
Mr. Chamberlain: I do not think it is very apt to liken Moscow and her satellites to ourselves and the Commonwealth. I do not think that is a very happy comparison, because our relationships are a little different and have always been based on equality and interchange between ourselves and the Commonwealth. It is due to the members of the Commonwealth to be told a little more about our defence policy. At the Commonwealth Conference held in Westminster some time ago, there was abysmal ignorance on the part of Members of Parliament from Canberra and Wellington as to where we stood in our defence policy in relation to the Pacific, although I do not think they are looking to be dictated to by us as the satellite countries of Russia would be dictated to by Moscow.
Mr. Alexander: I did not suggest it.
Mr. Chamberlain: I agree. But I think the whole set-up should be made clearer for our sake, as well as for their own.
Mr. Alexander: It is very important that an impression that is entirely wrong should not be created in the Dominions. No one suggested that we should dictate to the Dominions as Moscow dictates to her satellites. What I said was that we do not wish to publish all the details of our plans with our sister nations in the Commonwealth, because we get no such publicity of the plans of Moscow and her satellites.
Mr. Chamberlain: My right hon. Friend used the simile, not I, but I accept what he has said. I hope that when the Prime Minister comes to reply he will throw a little more light on these wider issues. Something more like a master plan, and not merely such detailed matters as Reserves and call-up, which I agree are very important, is due to us. A Debate on defence and certainly a statement by the Prime Minister on defence ought to throw some light on these wider issues, and I hope we shall have that tonight.
7.50 p.m.
Brigadier Head: I find myself in agreement with certain aspects of the speech of the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Chamberlain), and particularly with those parts where he stressed the importance of defence with regard to peace. I think many hon.

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Members opposite often look upon us Tories, and especially upon ex-brigadiers, as a kind of licensed butchers; I think that is what the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) calls us—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: No, slaughterers.
Brigadier Head: —whereas I believe that everybody here, especially if he has had any experience of war, is actuated by one motive and one alone, and that is to achieve a sufficient degree of armed preparedness to give us the best chances for peace.
I do not want to follow the very accurate and searching survey of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) because he covered the ground with great skill and much understanding; and I also want to restrict my remarks to the very widest aspects of defence as a whole and not go into any matters of detail. At the outset of my remarks, I should like to stress one aspect of this matter which I believe to be the most important one before the House today. It is this: in the middle of a time of great economic stress, when we are struggling for our economic recovery, and in the middle of a foreign situation which demands preparedness of our defences, we are being asked to give to the right hon. Gentleman £750 million and 1,500,000 men, including those in the factories. That is a very considerable amount of money and manpower to grant in these days.
The question which the House should have answered today is this: with that money and those men, why have you produced so little that can fight? We have had no answer to that question, and we have had no indication of what can fight. It seems to me very wrong to get neither of those things. It is beyond my knowledge to state any accurate assessment of what can fight, and I believe that, as far as the Navy is concerned, it is better off than the rest. But as for the Air Force, it would appear that there are practically no operational bombers and only a few fighter squadrons and that in the Army there is probably something less than two divisions operational. That is a poor present for a Minister of Defence to bring to the House on that expenditure which we have just voted to him. It is an even poorer present
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when he gives no reasons for those small numbers.
I believe that this situation in our defences should cause to the House and to the public the greatest concern. I do not believe it does. I think that very often people say, "Oh. that is just the Tories who are in Opposition." [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am proved to be correct. I beg hon. Members opposite just for one moment to try to look on me as someone who is genuinely worried about our defences. I assure them that I would say just the same things if there were a Tory Party on the other side of the House. If hon. Members do not believe that, I hope that one day, should this recur, I may be able to prove it to them.
Hon. Members opposite should not think that everything is all right because a satisfactory situation may be concealed behind this secrecy, or because sufficient money and the men have been allocated. The situation today is very worrying, and they should not think it is all right because the Minister of Defence is in the hands of the experts. There are things that ought to be done, and they ought to be done now; in my opinion, it is very important that the House should recognise that. I do beg any hon. Members who are doing me the courtesy to listen to me, to try to understand that I am not saying these things just because there is a Socialist Government in power. I am doing it because I am genuinely worried about our defences. I hope some hon. Members will have the civility to believe me.
Mr. Swinger: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us this? We have had all this before from the hon. Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low). Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman say what information he thinks should be given to the House in this White Paper? A previous speaker on the other side said he wanted to know the number of divisions, but what is the point of giving the number of divisions or formations without the details of equipment and fire power? Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think that those facts and details should be given?
Brigadier Head: I am coming to that. What I am saying now is that we have received today from the right hon.

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Gentleman the same two answers that we have had ever since he was appointed to his office. The first, answer is, "Hush, most secret"—hardly any information at all. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that concealment of information to this extent gives people dirty thoughts. That is a fact in life. A book only has to be banned, and people want to read it. We only have to conceal information about defence for people to want to know all about it. I will give my answer to the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Swingler) now. What should be revealed in this White Paper? We do not want to know numbers of divisions, but we do want to know that we have some hope for the future, that there is a plan, that equipment is being planned and that there is a period of evolution going on and some sense of design. The White Paper is a series of disconnected statements with a lot of ad hoc measures for each of the three Services independently. That is my complaint. Furthermore, the House is left in ignorance of absolutely everything; we know none of the things that every foreign military attaché in London knows. That is not only discourteous but it is a great disservice to the country.
The second answer that we have had today is also one that we have had each year: "Do not worry too much. There may not be much to show. It may all look a bit of a muddle now, but we are in a transition stage, and there are better things to hope for." Year after year the right hon. Gentleman has come to the House and has displayed this sort of shapeless mass which comprises the men and the money in the Armed Forces, and has said "Do not worry. It is an ugly looking thing, but this is a chrysalis. Something is changing inside it, and eventually there will come forth three beatutiful Armed Forces all up to date." I believe that chrysalis to be bogus. We have looked at it now for four years running, and all that has happened is that each year out of the chrysalis has fluttered a small White Paper. That is all we have had—nothing else. I personally wonder very much what is inside it.
As the right hon. Gentleman has declined to inform us what are the reasons for the present situation, I
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propose to try to do it for him. It is my belief that there are two main reasons for the parlous state of our defences today. Let me say at the outset that the reason why I am worried about this is because I do not think the hopes for the future are good. It is my belief that the present situation is not one which will improve, but if the present trend continues, will deteriorate. That is the seriousness of the situation, and the reason for it is this: Voluntary recruitment has failed.
I am now talking about the Air Force and the Army, because the Navy is rather different. I am not going into the actual reasons, but let us face the fact that voluntary recruitment has failed, and let us also face the fact that the Regular elements of the Army and the Air Force are short in quality and quantity. At present there is a tendency for many of the best men to leave owing to dissatisfaction with conditions. That is what is serious in the situation today. That is what must be arrested.
If we take the two elements of the Services as representing colours, and if we take the newly-joined National Service man and the untrained National Service men as white, and the Regular formations and units with technicians, good officers and N.C.O.s as black the present situation is that what should be black in the Regular Army is now often only dark grey and there is so much white that the general colour of these two Services as a whole—the Air Force and the Army—is a pale grey. It is over-dilution. That pale grey spells only one thing, and it is dangerous in this world. It spells operational unpreparedness. It means that if we have a sudden mobilisation, those units and formations will take a very long time to get ready. That is the reason why there is so little coming out, as a result of this vast expenditure in money and manpower. The reason is over-dilution. It is easy for the right hon. Gentleman to say—and we commend him for it, although he did wobble a bit—that we provide the money and manpower and then say to the Chiefs of Staff "get on with it." Obviously it is very difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to change. I suggest that he should consider this matter very carefully because it is my belief that we have to change.

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If we are going on like this, the trend will be downwards. We must arrest the deterioration in quality of the Regular Services. If we do not, their deterioration in quality will colour all the men who go through and we shall have permanently unprepared defences. It is legitimate for the right hon. Gentleman to ask: "How would you do it?" For what it is worth, I will tell the right hon. Gentleman my own view. We must really spend money to improve things like pay, conditions and accommodation. That will cost a lot of money but it will be worth it. I do not back the right hon. Gentleman in a sort of free-for-all with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I believe that in our present state of economic difficulty we must give something back to the Treasury. We shall have to give something back in terms of manpower out of National Service, either in smaller numbers, or in a shorter term of service. The great thing is that the right hon. Gentleman should see that the position is wrong and that he should correct it. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that we on this side are all talking nonsense, I assure him that he is alone in thinking so, and that in all the Services there is an absolute certainty that the present trend is downwards and that we must arrest it.
The second point in discussing the reason for the present state of affairs is that there is no plan. Today, for the first time, the right hon. Gentleman has agreed that there was no plan. He has said that he could not make a plan until he knew about America. But there should have been a plan all along. The trouble with the three Service Ministries during the last few years has been that they never knew what was going to happen next and they have never been able to make their own plans. The result is maladministration, muddle and waste. We must have a plan, even if it is not a good one, and stick to it so that everybody knows where he is. I remember some time ago I said jokingly, and I say it seriously now, that if the Minister of Defence wanted a badge he should have for it a buck passant, and that if he wants a motto he should have the words "Ad hoc"
As I have already said, we are operationally unprepared, that is to say, we have practically no formations or units which can fight at short notice. I
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believe that to be extremely dangerous and for the next five or 10 years I cannot see that we have any prospect of getting out of that state of affairs unless some action is taken. Modern war exacts a terrible penalty on anybody who is not ready. The last war never underlined the penalties that a country has to pay for being unprepared. Let hon. Members remember that last time there was Munich, then a year after Munich, followed by a year of phoney war. That warning has never fully brought home the terrible penalty of unpreparedness. Unless we do something, we are going to remain unprepared. That is why active steps must be taken. To neglect them, is to play ducks and drakes with the safety of the people of this country. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to ponder my words very carefully. I believe that I have behind me the opinion of all the experts in the country. I have met nobody who is an expert who does not agree with me in this case. Let the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is dangerous. I think the present situation, especially regarding A.A. defences, would make hon. Members' hair stand on end if they knew it and appreciated its significance. It will go on, unless over-dilution and unpreparedness are arrested.
My next point concerns Western Union. I believe that out of the Brussels Pact, and with that goes the Atlantic Pact, great hope arises for the future of the Western world but I also believe that it will only be realised if we make a reality of the defence aspect of the matter. We are at the cross roads in this matter of Western Union defence. Up one road lie plans, conferences, consultations, the setting up of staffs, agreements, operational arrangements and so forth, but no real defence forces to support them. That is a favourite habit of democracies in peace. Up the other fork of the road lies realistic defence and a real approach to the problem of gradually, laboriously and painfully and with full American aid, building up a defence that can really protect Europe.
It so happens that leadership and the responsibility for deciding whether this is to be done realistically or only on paper, lies to a large extent with this country. We have had put into our hands that leadership. Europe will look to us and judge us by our own contribution.

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America will look to us and to Europe to see which way we are going. If we mean business, America will come in, but if we do little about it, America will do little about it. What will happen is that there will be a swing of opinion in America towards the strategic theory which is already prevalent in some quarters, that America cannot protect Western Europe. It says: "As to war, we will fight a war against Russia if it comes, from air bases in those parts of Europe which Russia has not occupied and from the Middle East." It would be fatal if that strategic theory won the day and we lost the great hope of the Western world, which lies in the preservation of the integrity of Western Europe.
War today is not just a matter of strategy. Our aim would be not to defeat the Russians but to preserve Western European civilisation and our way of life. If Western Europe were overrun and this country were hammered, as it will be, we might win the war but it would be a hollow victory. We should have lost all that we fought for. When the right hon. Gentleman goes to his conferences they will want to know what he can produce in the first month or so of the war. That is the time when they may be under desperate pressure. That is the time for the life or death of Western Europe. What will the right hon. Gentleman be able to say if we retain this policy of having pale grey operational unpreparedness? He will be told: "You will have a fine force in six or nine months' time after the war has started, but we are not interested in that." We shall find that Western Union will gradually drift into talk and conferences, and that America will not give her full aid, because it is not matched in Europe.
I hope very sincerely that the right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister realise that this question of our operational unpreparedness will have an immense effect on the realisation or otherwise of Western Union. It is bound to be taken up. The only hope for Western Europe will be for this country to give a lead: then others will follow us, and America too. If we can achieve that, in my opinion we have the best hope for peace.
Mr. Alexander: What the hon. and gallant Gentleman is saying is exceedingly
important. I hope he will
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weigh his words and think what their effect will be in Europe and Washington. Let me assure him of this: in my view there has never been in modern history a time when we have made such rapid progress as in the last nine months, in spite of the conflicting elements in the nations concerned, in getting together for the safeguarding of Western Europe. It is fantastic to suggest, as he appears to do in his speech, that we have done nothing but plan. I have already indicated that we have succeeded in supplying, in advance of any defence formula, arms to the countries concerned. The actual plans must be made before one can settle between each of the Powers concerned what is to be their contribution in the rôle of service in which each country is best fitted to give its maximum effort to the collective whole. It really is quite unfair to make these criticisms—although I am certain that the hon. and gallant Gentleman intends to be constructive—when there has never been such a hope of getting progress for the real stepping-up of the armaments of Western Europe as we have at present, on the basis of the talks that have already gone forward.
Brigadier Head: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am trying to be helpful, but what I am trying to guard against is that we should fail to look this thing straight in the eye. There is always this tendency. Immense strides have been made in the structure, the organisation, the building up of staffs; what I am worried about, and what is so habitual in democracies, is talk without action. Of course there are weapons, but I am saying that our general policy for the three Services—which is what I have been talking about—is one that will produce preparedness after only a considerable interval. What we must have if we are to make a realistic thing of Western Union is rapid preparedness. The right hon. Gentleman may say, "We have made great progress," but unless he looks this question of operational preparedness straight in the eye, he will be fooling himself and, in the long run, he will ruin Western Union.
Hon. Members may think I am talking nonsense, but I believe I am stating the truth. What Western Union will be interested in is rapid operational preparedness, and we are not progressing towards

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it. That is why I beg the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider this matter. If he thinks I have not weighed my words, I can assure him I have. If he thinks I am being unhelpful, my answer is that it is much better to look these things straight in the eye than to kid yourself along the years and then, when the trouble comes, find you have deceived yourself. That is the habit of the democracies in their peacetime preparation for war.
I have seen that first-hand, and one of the reasons why I stood for Parliament was to try to stop it happening again. I beg the right hon. Gentleman not to dig himself into wishful thinking and to believe that everything is fine. What I am saying is bound to happen in Western Union sooner or later. Let us make up our minds to get our Forces well prepared. If we do not, we shall regret it. This is a vitally important matter. The House may think I am trying to attack the Government or that I am talking nonsense. I am not. This is a thing which affects our lives and our children's lives. A realistic defence system will do more for peace than anything else.
I beg hon. Members to think also of its effect on the cold war. I beg them to think of people getting up on soap boxes in the Eastern part of Western Europe, sticking up for democracy and downing Communism. They are brave men. There is their Eastern frontier wide open and, if anything were to happen, they know they would be overrun. Think how their morale would go up if they saw realistic steps being taken to build up real and proper defences. It must be done soon, for there is not much time left. The right hon. Gentleman must act because at the present moment opportunity is knocking at the door for England. If he just drifts along—and that is politically the easy thing to do—he may miss it. Remember Shakespeare:
"There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune."
The flood stands fair for Britain now. We must catch it because I believe that, if we do not catch it now, it may never flood again.
8.15 p.m.
Mr. Symonds: I do not propose to follow the hon. and gallant
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Gentleman into a general discussion of questions of strategy, but to limit myself to one theme which has figured in his and in many other speeches on both sides today and which I think is fundamental to any questions of strategy. No matter what strategic plans are drawn up, they obviously remain ineffective paper schemes, unless we have the manpower to implement them. We know only too well how short of manpower we are, and therefore its economic use becomes all the more vital. I was hoping that the Minister of Labour would be here, because what I have to say particularly concerns his Department. The economic use of manpower, as I see it, is not merely an objective affair, not merely a matter of having the right number of bodies doing the right jobs in the right places at the right times. There is a subjective and personal aspect of the use of manpower too. Men, I feel sure, will be more efficient if they feel they are being fairly and equitably treated in comparison with the way other men are being treated.
With regard to our use of manpower, that naturally raises the question of the working of the National Service Acts as we now have them. I am not proposing to debate their merits or demerits in principle. I accept as a fact that we have now got National Service until 1953 at least. As upwards of 200,000 young men become liable for call-up each year, it means that in those five years at any rate we shall have the lives of upwards of a million men drastically affected by these Acts. As they are working at the moment, we know that a whole class becomes liable, but a class is too large for the Services to handle and so we have in effect a selective call-up.
There are various methods of bringing those numbers down to what can be handled. There are deferments for various groups—apprentices, agricultural workers, coalminers, seamen, university students, conscientious objectors, and so on, and there is perhaps an inevitable tendency in the Ministry of Labour to look for some means of "shedding the load," so to speak, to bring down these numbers to manageable proportions. Within certain categories it seems fairly easy to obtain deferment. On the other hand, where grounds of personal and family hardship are involved.

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it seems extremely difficult to obtain either a deferment or, once called up, a release on compassionate grounds.
I shall quote the last available figures. As against some 41,000 deferments for apprenticeships, there were considerably under 2,000 for a variety of reasons, including deferment on personal hardship grounds, so the latter must be small. A typical case is where a man running a small one-man business has his son called up. His health breaks down, but it is almost impossible to get that son out to run the business. There seems to exist a feeling that if somehow a young man can be got into some form of apprenticeship there will be no difficulty, and that apprenticeships are becoming to some extent rather phoney. The 1929 class, for instance, included 41,400 apprenticeships, whereas the first half of the 1930 class alone contained 25,800, which gives an appreciable annual increase.
If it is possible to obtain deferment within these categories, what happens after a deferment has been granted? I was interested in the figures given today by the Minister of Defence about the 1931 class. He said that 110,000 deferments were contemplated for various reasons—agriculture, coalmining, apprenticeships and so on—whereas some 21,000 men whose deferments had expired were to be called up. There is, of course, a great discrepancy between these figures. In many ways it is understandable, because agricultural workers and coalminers, I suppose, will continue to be deferred almost indefinitely. The discrepancy in these figures, however, suggests that there may be some possibility of evasion. My post-bag reveals considerable concern about this. I very much hope we can be given some further and more exact figures to show whether or not these evasions can actually occur.
There is an impression in many quarters that once a man has been granted a deferment, no real check is maintained; that once he achieves deferment he is well away. It is said that the authorities, once they have disposed of a man by deferment, are not reluctant, perhaps, to let him slip, so that they may be helped in their problem of getting the numbers down to manageable proportions. There is a suspicion that if only a young man can obtain deferment
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until he is about 21, he is safe from call-up. Many people regarded as evidence in support of this belief an answer which the Minister of Labour gave to me on 16th November last, when I asked him a Question about the numbers of men liable for National Service in each year since the end of the recent war; how many of them had not been called up; how many were excused for various reasons, and how many of those granted deferments still had not been called up at the expiry of their deferment period, and for what reasons.
The Minister gave me some figures referring to men liable for call up from dates beginning on 1st December, 1945, which is quite a long time ago. They applied to the 1928 class. He said:
"Statistics of the numbers on the 1928 class who have not yet been called up are not available."
That is rather surprising. It may not be possible to give absolutely exact figures, but I would have thought there would be fairly accurate statistics to show, at any rate, how many men still had not been called up after deferment. At the end of his reply the Minister said:
"It is not possible to say how many separate individuals have, during any stated period, had their call-up deferred in order to complete their apprenticeships or take examinations, etc., nor are statistics available showing the numbers still not called up after the termination of their deferments, but the latter figure must be small."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 16th Nov. 1948; Vol. 458, c. 200.]
I should have felt much hapiper if. instead of the vague phrase
"the latter figure must be small,"
there had been something much more categorical and an assertion that "the latter figure is small." It is this vagueness and uncertainty which is so disturbing.
Since January of this year, with the implementation of the new National Service Act, we have this position. A man who obtains deferment and who at the end of it, for some reason or other, is not called up, is completely free from all liability, whereas the conscript, after his 18 months' service with the Forces, still continues to be liable for Territorial or Reserve service for a considerable number of years. There is, therefore, an even greater discrepancy now between the man who is called up and the man who is not. This discrepancy is causing disquiet, and I should like to suggest what might be

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done to meet these difficulties and to make the situation happier. The present occupations of all men under 26 who have not yet served in the Forces should be checked; not only their present occupations, but their occupations for the previous 12 months, to prevent any last-minute rush into some sort of phoney apprenticeship.
In order to deal with the very many real cases of hardship arising from call-up and from the failure to grant compassionate releases, there should be a widening of the grounds for deferment and release. If it is suggested that thereby I am making discrimination all the greater, my proposal is that that greater extensions of deferments should be combined with some form of compulsory Territorial or Reserve force training for all those who do not serve their 18 months in uniform. There would not then be the anomaly of one man becoming liable for service in uniform, followed by Reserve service, whilst another man escapes all liability.
Every eligible man would then be doing some form of service, either in uniform with a Reserve liability, or in some form of Territorial service without an initial period in uniform. We should then dispel the growing feeling that some young men, for one reason or another, are able to get away with it while others have to carry the whole burden. If, in that way, we can make the working of the National Service Act more fair as between man and man, the result will be a far more effective use of our manpower because that manpower will then he contented.
8.28 p.m.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I want to follow up—and I am operating, I understand, under a very strict time limit—the subject which has been pursued by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Symonds). The hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers), who is no longer present, seemed to think that denunciation of the actual system of compulsory service was all that was necessary, and that no important function would be achieved in analysing exactly how that system had been operating. I take the view that, for better or for worse, we have this system, but that we are entitled to hold Ministers strictly to account for the efficiency or otherwise of the way in which they operate that service. In that respect the Minister of
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Labour, as also Minister of National Service, is not the least important of the Service Ministers.
I think it has been made abundantly clear, first, that the Government never have, for more than a few weeks at a time, any settled intention of how many men they are going to call up under the National Service Acts; nor have they any definite plan as to how many they want. Since 1st December we have had three separate sets of figures from Ministers of the Crown of the number of young men to be called up during 1949. This seems to indicate the complete absence of any plan for a call-up system. I am quite certain also that the crux of the problem is that the Defence Departments do not want all the men who are technically liable for service, but the Government have not faced the problem of how to limit that number to the number really required.
The hon. Member for Cambridge referred to evasions. There may be some, but what more concerns me is whether the Departments are operating the system fairly and properly. This has become extremely clear during the course of the afternoon in this connection. The latest figures that the Minister of Defence gave of men liable for National Service was 300,000 during the current year, out of 371,000, which was the figure for male births in the appropriate year. He subtracted from that figure of 300,000 a number of grades, totalling 110,000, under the headings of mining, agriculture, Mercantile Marine students and apprentices. I hope that when we get a reply we shall have these figures either amended or reinforced.
I have taken the opportunity, with the possibility of inaccuracy due to speed, of looking up some of the relevant figures. The total number of men between 18 and 21 in the agricultural industry is 47,000. It is therefore fair to say that the age group there is about 17,000 at the outside. The number of men employed in the whole mining industry, according to the last available figure, was 736,000, aged 16 to 65. The other day the Minister of Fuel and Power told us that the average age of miners today was somewhere between 35 and 37. To get the age group in the mines I think one is being generous in dividing the total in the mines by 40, which gives a total of 17,400. Therefore in mining and

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agriculture we have 34,400. Students and apprentices should be an almost self-balancing item, since, if we are deferring people this year, we are also getting the balance from those deferred in a previous year. Surely it is not seriously suggested that the balance of 110,000, the 64,000, all went to the Mercantile Marine. I have not been able to get the figure for the Mercantile Marine, but it seems to me on these figures that there is a very big divergence between the 110,000 which the Minister gave this afternoon as being exempted from call-up by reason of following those occupations and the actual figures of young men to be found in those occupations.
I hope that when the Prime Minister replies he will be able to assure us that the system is being operated fairly and properly, because, on these figures, we are left with the impression that, in order to get down the total number of people liable to call-up to the number really wanted, the Government, instead of facing the problem and arranging a definite and fair system, have adopted various administrative expedients. The more one looks at the figures I have given the House the more thoroughly disquieting they become.
There was another thoroughly unsatisfactory feature of what the right hon. Gentleman told. The House will recollect that on the Second reading of the National Service (Amendment) Bill on 1st December, the right hon. Gentleman indicated that he was going to reduce the number of men called up to the total decided by the, to my mind, thoroughly unsound expedient of a block deferment of one-quarter's registrations. That process would be carried on cumulatively in the coming years. There were protests from all sides of the House, led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), and in January we were assured by the Minister of Labour that this procedure was being dropped. Now we are told by the Minister of Defence that they are proposing, either next year, or certainly the year after, to revert to this system.
I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider that. Does he not realise the appalling hardship that uncertainty as to the age at which one is liable to be called up causes a young man? It is impos-
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sible for those planning their education, apprenticeship, or career to make sensible arrangements. It is impossible for employers to know over many months when their employees are liable to go and we are enormously magnifying the inevitable inconvenience involved in a system of compulsory service by introducing this element of uncertainty. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us that the Government are prepared to consider a more clearly thought out plan on this subject than that of merely putting off the evil day by slowly raising the age of call-up. a process which cannot be continued indefinitely since, if so, we shall get the age too high from a military point of view.
Mr. Alexander: As I said this afternoon, the position is that for the next few years there can be no question of a variation in the call-up. We think we are clear for 1949 and probably 1950, but we are not sure whether we may have to alter one registration age in 1951. We fully realise that the point wants clearing up as quickly as possible, but I would remind the House of what I said this afternoon.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I hope the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers will work out a better plan than this clumsy expedient of deferring one registration.
There is another matter which is cognate to this subject. I do not believe the Government have any clear plan of how they propose to use their National Service men. That view is supported by the extraordinary situation today, when some of the men under the Act passed recently are liable when they come out in the summer of next year to part-time service, but no statement has been made of how that part-time service is to operate. It is provided that they will be liable for 60 days training in the course of the year, but there is no indication to those young men of whether that training will be concentrated in one camp, whether it will be a question of a week-end camp, or training on certain weekdays. No information of any sort has been given. It seems quite improper that young men who are planning their future and whose employers have to consider the position in respect of them should not be told what are the Government's intentions and what obligations

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and liabilities will be imposed upon them. This Act has been on the Statute Book for a year and surely the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers have had time to think out how they propose to use this part-time service. It is intolerable that they should impose a liability without thinking for what military purpose it is to be used. If they had made up their minds, it is quite wrong not to announce their decision. Employers had to consider their position. Why should not men be told what are the alternative methods under which they can perform this service?
The right hon. Gentleman ran away entirely from the fact that National Service is a second best and that the basis of an efficient defence system must be properly recruited Regular Forces. Here I agree with the hon. Member for North Dorset. The right hon. Gentleman ran away from the fact that the major factor which is preventing recruiting is the inadequate level of pay offered. The right hon. Gentleman has never faced the fact that it is not good enough merely to offer the equivalent of what an ordinary man may earn in civilian life. He has never faced the fact that the only equivalent which will produce results will be the equivalent of what can be earned by a skilled man in civilian life who has the opportunity to work overtime. The right hon. Gentleman will not face the fact that service in the Armed Forces of the Crown is a skilled trade. He will not face the fact that those who serve in those Forces are entitled, in addition to the equivalent of the pay of a skilled man, to something by way of compensation for the inevitable disadvantages of Service life, frequent posting, etc. It is useless for him to say he has offered that equivalent when he has done nothing of the sort.
If he wishes to have an example of how a proper system of pay operates I ask him to look at the United States of America. It is a good example because Americans are, although most valiant people, even less military than we are. So satisfactory is their recruiting position that they have had to put a limit of 13,000 on their monthly intake to the Armed Forces. They are able to select and pick out men of the highest quality from the large number of applicants, many of whom they reject. One of the reasons why they are able to do so is
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that they pay a recruit £18 5s. a month, they pay him the equivalent of £20 a month after four months' service and give him substantial concessions in his Income Tax liabilities. That is an example of what has happened; that is not merely theory.
If the right hon. Gentleman really wants to get Regular recruiting going he will not do so by these small increases, these tinkering increases which he has so far produced, but only by offering a rate of pay which a skilled man who is able to work overtime can earn in civilian life. Let him try that and he will have as great a success in recruiting for the Regular Forces of the Crown as his opposite number in America is having in recruiting for his country's Forces. If he persists in this attempt to recruit the Regular Forces on the cheap his attempts to recruit will fail, as they have so far failed, and he himself will be answerable to this House and the country for that failure.
Mr. James Glanville: Is it not much easier to recruit members of the Forces in America, where they have an unemployed population of 3,000,000, than in this country, where we have no unemployed?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I should say that that was not the explanation. I should say, as one who knows and loves the American people, that they are people who are on the whole rather averse to military service, and that the success of the American recruiting scheme, backed by proper pay, is a good illustration of what the Ministry of Defence should do.
8.44 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton: The last two speeches have been devoted to a special point. I should like to bring the Debate back to the general question of defence and particularly to the point raised by the hon. Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) and the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head) as to the long-term and short-term policy. As I understood them, they have urged that we need all the emphasis to be on the short-term policy and take exception to the fact that the long-term policy is mentioned first in the Defence White Paper.
We all know that such a thing as absolute security is quite impossible,

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whether it be in our own private lives or in the life of a nation. All that we can hope to do is to take reasonable precautions to maintain our security, and we know that in doing that we have to make continual compromises. One compromise, which is well understood by every Member of this House, and by the general public, is the compromise between the proportion of our manpower and materials which we devote directly to military purposes, and the proportion which we keep for the general economic and industrial progress of the nation. That is understood because we know full well that in these days no nation can wage a war successfully with out a very strong civilian industrial system behind it. If that system is starved of men and materials in order to increase the Armed Forces, we might be destroying our long-term war potential.
Another important compromise is perhaps not always so clearly understood. I refer to the question of the short and long-term aspects. If we really anticipate that a major war is just round the corner we then have to boost up our Armed Forces so as to be absolutely ready, with large quantities of the very latest equipment in all three Services, notwithstanding the fact that it will be out of date later. But if we do that, if we multiply our stock, equipment and weapons which are up to date now, it is quite certain that we shall not be able to do the same thing in four or five years' time, particularly in view of the rapidity with which invention is moving at the present time, especially in regard to aircraft, for example. It is quite extraordinary how aircraft which were up to date a short time ago, are now becoming obsolescent.
Therefore, we need to look very closely at the international position and appreciate, very carefully what it is. I think that is where the Members to whom I have referred are perhaps making their mistake. I do not think that anybody could question the deep sincerity with which the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton spoke when he said that he had seen unpreparedness—I take it that he was referring to 1939—and that he did not want to see it again. I do not believe that our present position is similar to that
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of 1939. I do not believe it is similar to that of 1914. On both those occasions we were faced with a potential aggressor, a great military nation, the successor of Prussia, of which it was said that instead of being a nation with an army it was an army with a nation attached, a great nation which looked to war to accomplish its ends. We know that the German General Staff in 1914 were prepared to lose one million men to achieve their ends. They were working up to a climax. Every one with eyes to see could see that. They could see the great extension of strategic railways all along the Belgian frontier, where they served no purpose other than strategic purposes. It was all there, just hovering on the brink. Although Hitler, in 1939, hoped to achieve his ends with less expenditure of military force, he was nevertheless in a somewhat analogous position.
The position now is entirely different. We have not got, in the Soviet Union, a great military Power in the sense in which Germany was such a Power—a Power really aiming all the time at achieving its ends by military means. Quite the contrary; it is the last way in which the Soviet Union wants to increase her influence. I do not believe that she wants war at all. Her method of increasing her influence and sway in the world is by infiltration, by stirring up ideological troubles and by methods of that kind, backed up, of course, with the knowledge that there is military force behind it. It is primarily a cold war in which she is engaged, a war of nerves, and it is a war that may go on for a long time. Our aim must be to prevent its extending into a shooting war.
I believe we can do that as long as we make it perfectly clear to the Soviet Union that defeat is inevitable if she does launch a major war, apart from any initial successes which she may get, and I think that should be our primary aim. I think we are achieving it by the very remarkable steps we have already taken in collective security in Western Europe and in the Atlantic area. As long as we can maintain that position, I do not think there is any great immediate risk of a shooting war. Of course, that is not to say that we do not need any immediate military strength at all. It is stupid to go to extremes in any direction. For one thing, we want immediate military strength to encourage the nations of

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Europe and to enable them to withstand the infiltration of which I have spoken and the underground attempts to upset their various Governments. What we have to look forward to is several years—we do not know how many—of cold war, but we have to keep our heads cool all the time and see that it does not break out into a real war.
We must not be misled by analogies with 1939 and 1914, because they do not apply in these days, and therefore I think the Government are right to lay stress on the long-term aspect of the present defence position. I think they are right to concentrate a great deal on research, and, although they cannot tell us much about it, we all know that our scientists are as good as any in the world and that we can rely on the fact that they are making good progress towards keeping us right up to date with other nations and probably ahead of a good many. For my part, I entirely agree with the Government in laying the stress on long-term policy and in not feeling it necessary that we must be all armed to the teeth and ready to jump off into a major war the day after tomorrow.
8.53 p.m.
Mr. Keeling: I listened very carefully to the speech of the Minister, but he made no reference to what I, with due respect to my military friends, regard as the most important aspect of Defence. A statement of policy was made in another place on 24th November, when Lord Henderson, brother of the Secretary of State for Air, speaking for the Government, said that the Government recognised the predominant importance of air power, and that very little could be achieved without it. The Leader of that other place underlined that statement by saying that, without a doubt, the Royal Air Force is our greatest safeguard.
The Minister of Defence did not repeat that statement, nor does the White Paper show any sign that it is going to be translated into action. I can only conclude that the Minister of Defence and the Government have forgotten that statement of policy. Five-sixths of the hon. Members of this House wish for co-operation with the Western Powers in defence, a matter to which the Minister of Defence himself devoted
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quite a large part of his speech. I assert that, as Western co-operation grows, so does the case for increasing British air power grow. The most suitable contribution that we, with our necessarily limited army, can make to Western Union defence is air power. It is perfectly true that the United States is building a vast air force, but to our European allies aircraft in this country must always be a greater encouragement, and a stronger incentive to a maximum. effort themselves, than aircraft on the other side of the Atlantic. In spite of our present grave weakness, Britain is still the foremost Power in Western Europe, and Britain will certainly be expected to take the lead in her air contribution, as well as on the sea. Moreover, nothing is more likely to reassure France about her fears of a renewal of the German danger than a strong British Air Force.
There is a further reason why we should give priority to air power. Russia, our only possible antagonist at present, has supplies of men which she does not mind using prodigally in peace as in war, and, in spite of that, her supplies of men seem almost inexhaustible. She and her satellites, who are bound together by innumerable defence agreements, have between them far larger armies than exist in the West. These facts give Russia a great advantage. Is it possible for us to nullify that advantage? There is only one answer—air power. We discovered the possibilities of air power in the last war, and so did the Germans. Von Rundstedt said that the German collapse, less than a year after we landed in Normandy, was due to air force, air force, and again air force. He said that the main factors were the smashing of the lines of communication, the attack on marching columns, which made it impossible to bring up the armoured divisions, and carpet bombing. Von Kesselring said the same thing. What air power did against Germany it could do against any other European aggressor, if it were available.
Leaving out of account the atom bomb—and I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) and other speakers that the atom bomb has certainly not made other weapons obsolete—I say that a strong bomber force, instantly ready to attack

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enemy bases, enemy war industries and enemy rocket sites, is alike the strongest deterrent to an aggressor and the best hope of victory if war comes. The Minister of Defence seemed to doubt whether our economic position made it possible to have a big bomber force. It seems to me that the real question is not, can we afford it, but can we afford to do without it? Yet, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol pointed out, the White Paper is almost silent about the bomber, and completely silent about the jet bomber, which is an absolute necessity to us. The Government announced yesterday in another place that an order was soon going to be given for jet bombers. Not one is in the air today, yet the Americans have had jet bombers in the air for at least two years, and they are now being supplied in quantity to American bomber squadrons. We shall have—
Mr. Alexander: The hon. Member is casting a rather grave reflection on our position in the matter. The Americans were developing this new type of heavy bomber right from the beginning of the war with very much larger engineering and general resources at their disposal at that time than we could possibly have had, stretched as we were. I should have thought that the hon. Member, with his experience of the Air Force, would have realised that starting with the design, going through the drawing-board stage to the prototype, and then on to the production line takes a considerable number of years. In all the circumstances, we are making good progress.
Mr. Keeling: I am glad that good progress is being made. I was not trying to cast a reflection on anybody, but merely to state what are the facts. The fact is—I do not think this will be denied—that we shall have no jet bomber squadron for at least two years. In the meantime we have only Lancasters and Lincolns, which are likely to be an easy prey for jet fighters. It may be said that jet bombers require highly-skilled Regulars to man them, who are not forthcoming. That is quite true. The Government have admitted that the most pressing problem of the Royal Air Force is what they call the problem of trained manpower, which I take to be jargon for trained men, and that the Air Force must
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be based primarily on Regular Service. The White Paper shows that only 13,600 Regulars were recruited for the Air Force in 1948, but we are not told how many Regulars left the Air Force during that time.
This is not the occasion to discuss the pay and allowances of the Air Force, but I will say this: it is already demonstrated, beyond the possibility of doubt, that however much the Minister may talk about the attractiveness of the pay and other conditions of service, in fact they do not attract. It is really no good the Minister trying to persuade our young men that the conditions are more attractive than they seem, and it is also quite futile, in my opinion, to suggest that anything we say here will make the terms of service seem less attractive than they are.
There is one other thing we can do besides improving the conditions of service. We have to make the Air Force better known, to give it a little more glory, to do the same thing for the Air Force as is done for the Navy where the ships are known by name, whereas in the Air Force the squadron is hardly ever mentioned by name. I conclude by quoting some words from "The Economist" of the week before last:
"It is hard to resist the conclusion that our excessive secrecy is designed not to confuse the Kremlin but to prevent a probing into the weakness of Government policy."
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): Mr. Macmillan.
Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. I want to ask you, Sir, with the utmost courtesy, if it is not the case that you told my colleague that you would not call my Amendment but you would call me, and that at half-past six you told me to go and get something to eat and that you would call me later on?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member seems to be reflecting on the Chair. It is perfectly true that his colleague saw me and that I said I hoped to call the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), but he was not successful in catching my eye.
Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I cannot listen to the hon. Member any further. He is reflecting on the Chair.
Mr. Gallacher: Further to that point of Order. Is it not the case that you told me you were going to call me? I want to know what influence was used to prevent my being called.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I certainly never informed the hon. Member that I would call him. My invariable custom is to say that I will do my best and it may be that I hope to call an hon. Member, and that is the message I gave to the colleague of the hon. Member for West Fife. Certainly no influence of any shape or kind was used on the Chair.
Mr. Gallacher: I want to make a protest about discrimination. Before I lose my temper I will leave the Chamber. It is a scandal.
9.5 p.m.
Mr. Harold Macmillan: I am sorry that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has left our Debate, but I think he will be able to satisfy himself that the point of view which he represents has never been, and will not be during the rest of the Debate, altogether absent from our minds. We are indebted to you, Sir, for the method in which you have allowed this Debate to be carried on, for if it had been rigidly confined to the narrow terms of the White Paper it would have been dull and limited indeed. But, fortunately, Members on all sides of the House have contributed in the course of the Debate a number of original and important speeches which have illumined our counsels and enlivened our discussions.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) observed at the opening of the Debate, the White Paper would appear to have been composed by a number of gentlemen in the appropriate Departments who had been asked to make contributions of the various paragraphs to make up the joint White Paper; and the Minister's speech consisted largely of an expansion of those paragraphs—compiled, no doubt, by the same gentlemen, or at least those of his own Department. It did not really add very much more to our information, except to expand and, as my right hon. Friend said, paraphrase what was already in the White Paper. Indeéd, if there are any left in this House who are keen Dickensians I would mention that the
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Minister's speech and the White Paper remind me of that famous trial of Bardell v. Pickwick.
"The ushers called 'Silence'."
Our Debates begin with the cry, "Order."
"Mr. Simpkins proceeded to open the case. And the case appeared to have very little inside it when he had opened it for he kept such particulars as he knew completely to himself, and sat down, after a lapse of three minutes, leaving the jury in precisely the same advanced stage of wisdom as they were in before."
Mr. Simpkins's method had, at least, the advantage of brevity.
What would one expect from a serious document on national defence, or any serious attempt to expand it? One would expect a broad, politico-military appreciation of the situation. One would expect a short but clear definition of our purposes and objects. One would expect an account of the methods by which we hope to attain those objects. One would expect some report, generalised, of course, because of the necessity of security, but some report of the progress already made and of future plans. That is what we thought, when defence Debates were instituted, a defence Debate would be; and that is what they had never been in any of the years since they have taken place.
Of course, these matters are touched upon in the White Paper; they were mentioned by the Minister; but they are not marshalled in any logical sequence. The presentation in the White Paper is confused in form; it is jejune in style; has neither clarity nor vigour, nor any sense of proportion. For instance, some of the paragraphs are of vital importance, but others of them are a mere account of historical events of the year, which would be more suitable to the Annual Register than to a Debate on defence. Of course, on certain points the Minister has given us some new information today, but I say that on most of the vital matters we are still left in a position of complete ignorance.
Indeed, so far as defence is concerned it is not an exaggeration to say that the country learned far more from yesterday's Debate in another place than we have learned either from the White Paper or from the statement of the Minister of Defence today. As regard the bomber

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programme, as my right hon. Friend said, there is not a single reference to it in the White Paper. Apparently that was prevented by reasons of security. The White Paper was presented to the House of Commons at the end of February. We were not allowed to be told about bombers. At the beginning of March a Debate is held in the House of Lords in which quite a long statement is made by the appropriate Minister. Security prevents the House of Commons from knowing at the end of November what security allows the House of Lords to know at the beginning of March. I shall have something more to say later about the question of secrecy, but if there is to be secrecy, let it at least be consistent.
The broad, politico-strategic appreciation is indeed referred to under the heading of Section III—"Co-operation within the Commonwealth and with other countries." In paragraph 9, in guarded language and careful under-statement there is revealed a tremendous fact, which is perhaps the greatest fact of modern history—for what does it say? It says that the United Nations organisation has failed. It says that all the dreams and hopes of 1945 are ended, that the foreign policy of conciliation and appeasement has failed. It says that the election cries of 1945 have proved in this respect, as in so many others, false and illusory. We were told then that, because of its Socialist policy, a Labour Government is most fitted to co-operate more and more closely with Soviet Russia. We were told then that Left understands Left, but Right does not.
What is the truth? The truth is that at the end of this time we are at war—not, thank God, a shooting war, but a cold war, a war which, in some ways, may make greater demands upon us than open war. For we are in danger of an insidious and progressive deterioration in our position, and we risk a steady decline; we risk being unable to call a halt at any particular point in the march of Communist aggression, until it is too late. It is to the solution of this problem that paragraph 9 makes some reference. The White Paper says—and I will read the phrase—that we need to turn to the
"appropriate regional security arrangements as contemplated in Article 51 of the United Nations Charter."
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That is a perfectly fair definition in legal terms of our situation. It may raise some men and women to the necessary sacrifice of leisure and wealth to deal with it. I think that what we really mean to say is that we turn, not for the first time in our history, to the Grand Alliance of Free Peoples for the defence of the liberty of the world. Nor is there anything to fear if that alliance becomes strong and united, for it consists, after all, of the British Commonwealth and Empire, the United States of America, and all the peoples of Europe, or what remains of Europe. Marshalled together, in a careful and well-designed strategy, and well-balanced preparation, I am certain that these immense forces can achieve their purpose.
But the work must be put in hand with vigour and expedition. It must be the supreme purpose of Government policy and must have first priority, for if it fails all else falls to the ground. All our hopes and plans for social betterment, all our schemes and ambitions, all our policies, all our dreams—all depend on the issue of this immense world struggle in which we are involuntarily but ineluctably engaged. We need, therefore, not the leisurely approach of the Minister of Defence, but a sense of urgency and of drama, for we cannot conceal from ourselves in any true appreciation of the position how much we have lost ground in the last three years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] Well, let us consider a man who had retired altogether from the world in 1945 and then returned, not like Rip Van Winkle after a whole generation, but after only four years. What would he see?
He would see the whole of Eastern Europe and a great part of Central Europe gone. He would see Eastern Germany in the grip of Russia. He would see in Berlin a situation which has been dealt with by an extraordinary miracle of improvisation which has solved the temporary crisis, but which cannot be regarded as a permanency—and which, indeed, if it becomes permanent becomes perilously near appeasement. He would see in the Middle East a situation in which we have no friends left—in which respect I am indeed sorry for the Minister of Defence, for never was a Minister of Defence more handicapped by a colleague than he is in the

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sphere of the Middle East, for the policy of the Foreign Secretary has left us without a friend. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] We know that, and hon. Members opposite know it, and were the first to say it. Similarly in the East and in the Far East: Burma is in a state of anarchy; Malaya is held in the grip of Communist-directed mass murder; and, perhaps the most significant even in the whole century, China has fallen into Communist hands.
But what does the White Paper say of all this. [HON. MEMBERS: "What?"] I will tell hon. Members what it says. It says:
"The degree of success realised"—
what an awfully good expression: "The degree of success realised," meaning the complete failure—
"The degree of success realised has, however, proved a grievous disappointment and the establishment of collective security on a world-wide basis under the United Nations has not been achieved."
What a miracle of understatement. What delicacy. What objectivity. Why, the Minister might be a B.B.C. announcer about to tell us of the approaching end of the world, and in the grammar and the syntax which is, I think, the approved style, he would be saying: "The last trumpet is expected to be sounded just after the nine o'clock news." So much for the appreciation of the situation. That is all we have, this jejune paragraph, to tell us of the greatest world situation that has ever been faced.
What are our objects? Surely they are, first of all, and above all, as has been said in every part of the House, to avoid a shooting war. But our second object, and just as important, is to avoid further gains by the aggressor, and then gradually to recover lost ground—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—unless hon. Members want to see the whole of Central and Eastern Europe held for ever in the grip of the tyranny that now controls it. Is that what they want? We must gradually recover lost ground. We must avoid war—
Commander Pursey: You were at war with Russia last time.
Mr. Macmillan: I have been at war, yes, and I know something of war, and I say that a third war would be fatal to a civilisation which has, with great difficulty, survived the first two. How do
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we avoid war? [HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] I will tell hon. Members. Not by being afraid of it ourselves. It is by being so strong, with our allies, that the other fellow is afraid of it. Peace cannot be won by wishful thinking.
Commander Pursey: Nineteen thirty-nine again.
Mr. Macmillan: We have learned that lesson, but hon. Members opposite have not. Peace must be earned, for peace is a by-product of courage and of truth. Above all, we must put out of our minds—and this has been admirably said by hon. Members on both sides—any conception of a long leisurely war, for if war comes, we shall not this time have the time to do what we have done twice before in my lifetime, and that is to build up our Forces during the first year of conflict. We shall never be able to do that again, and even if we could, the whole life of Europe would be so destroyed, if it were overrun, that even if we were the nominal victors at the end of a long war, we should in fact be destroyed with it. Surely, what follows from this in the discussion of our defence programme is, above all, that speed and rapid-striking forces, whether of conventional or unconventional weapons, are necessary, if war should come, to secure a quick and decisive result. That is the essence of our defence problem.
In a long drawn-out preparation, where during the first two or three years we are able to build up our strength behind other people's efforts, that surely must govern the whole character of our preparation. In my personal opinion I would rather see a smaller but really efficient force at the disposal of the Grand Alliance than a vast reserve of power which can be mobilised only over a long period of years. So far as our forces are concerned, the sooner the Air Force and the Army, like the Government, get back upon a regular full-time engagement the better it will be. There I agree with the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers), although I do not agree with the arguments which he presented in regard to conscription during the first period, because he overstated them. It is a duty in any democratic society to give National Service in the Reserves which is inescapable, but we must make a definite full-time first line force of Regular troops.

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We are in a very dangerous situation, because I understand that, according to the White Paper, we are to lose in the next 18 months some 110,000 men of something between 18 and 27 months' experience. We shall be left in the next year or two in a much worse position than we are in today. That gap must somehow be filled, but we must do more than this, for we must avoid war. We must make it clear that we are not prepared to see one country after another taken over by blackmail. If any other country is threatened—and I make this prophecy that some countries I know particularly in the Mediterranean will be threatened before this year is out—be it Greece, Turkey, Persia or even Germany—we must be ready with our Allies to prevent this piecemeal absorption. How are we going to do it? Let us be frank, otherwise there is no good having Services at all. We have got to put out of our minds local assistance. That will not succeed. We must revert to the doctrine that peace is indivisible, and we and the Alliance as a whole must make it apparent to the aggressors that such methods will be answered by general and overwhelming attack. If we do not do that, country after country will be lost to Communism, as they were lost to Nazism.
This threat the Grand Alliance must be in a position to implement, because if it is bluff it is worse than useless, and if it is not bluff then it is the truth, however hard and cruel it is. If we have the force to make it effective then it will prevent gradual decay and it will succeed. Finally, we must begin to recover lost ground. I do not doubt that if we once attempt to show that the tide is turning and that the power of the Alliance has been created, some of the peoples at any rate of the oppressed countries will no longer tolerate their position. I believe they have the courage and the strength to recapture their lost freedom.
What are our methods for achieving the purposes and objects we have in view? Neither the White Paper nor the Minister's speech gives us any very clear picture of Allied co-operation, the machinery of planning, either in each group separately or in the groups together, or what the role of each group and each partner in each group is, or the state of readiness of our United
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Kingdom Forces. All we are told is that we are to spend £750 million and employ 750,000 men in the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.
I therefore repeat my right hon. Friend's question: Is there really a plan? There are a lot of rather general statements about the Atlantic Pact, Western Union and Commonwealth consultation, but are these things being translated actively from generalisations into reality? What, for instance, is the method of control? Is there in Western Union or in our relations with the United States anything as clear and precise as the old machinery of the Combined Chiefs of Staff and the Combined Supply Board? We are told that there are observers attending the Western Union meetings. Observers are very good, but I prefer partners to observers, and unless it is a complete and full partnership, the Grand Alliance will fail. What are the allotted roles? Are the roles of the British Fleet and the American Fleet being planned in conjunction so that one is not superfluous to the other? Are plans for the possible submarine attack—that is the real danger, not main fleet action—being concerted together? To what extent are we arranging our policy as a team?
I want again to mention the Debate in another place last night. When I saw no reference at all to the bomber programme in the White Paper, I thought that an interchange of role was being arranged, and that, as the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley) mentioned, while we were to concentrate on the fighter programmes, the bombers would be provided by the Americans. That seemed a possible plan, but apparently that is not so. From the statements made in another place, which were rather obscure and not altogether satisfactory, there is to be a jet bomber programme at home, although we are not told when it is likely to become effective.
Then, as to supply. How far are the design and character of weapons being made interchangeable between the countries? During the last War we had the tremendously important difficulty of the different types and calibres. How far is that difficulty being overcome in heavy weapons, automatic weapons and light weapons? What is the state of the antiaircraft defences? What has happened to what were called the "minute men"—the Registered Reserves? How many

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of them are there? What is the state of our anti-aircraft weapons? What about the aircraft themselves? How many fighting squadrons have we? We have seen what the great leaders of the past in another place have told us what we ought to have, and they are not altogether to be pooh-poohed because they were the most successful air chiefs we have ever had and they brought us to great victory. What is the state of the armoured divisions?
We are told over and over again that these questions cannot be answered because of security risks. If, in replying, with his hand on his heart, the Prime Minister will tell us that the reason for this extraordinary reticence, unparalleled at any time, is that he is afraid of leakages to foreign Powers, I suppose we must accept that. However, can he really tell us that even the broad picture—not the details of which the Minister of Defence keeps speaking, not the precise details of research and the character and calibre of weapons—but even the broad details are not known to foreign Powers? Are they not the common talk of every embassy in Europe? Is it really the foreign Powers and the leakage to the agents of which he is afraid? Why are the Government afraid of telling us the truth? Is it because the truth would frighten the enemy, or is it because it would alarm our Allies and our own people? Is it because we are too strong, or is it because we are too weak?
The Government have claimed a blank cheque. By what authority do they do so? Not their record. The hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) introduced the element of pre-war recrimination into our discussions. The record of the party opposite is that they voted against every Defence Estimate.
Mr. Bing: All I want to say to the right hon. Gentleman is that since he voted, and indeed was one of the two right hon. Gentlemen opposite who voted, against the Conservative Party with the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), does he not agree that the reason which the right hon. Gentleman then gave for voting against the Conservative Government was:
" History will disentangle individual responsibility and will lay the blame on the shoulders where blame should be, but hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway—pledged, loyal, faithful
658
supporters of His Majesty's Government—must not imagine that they can throw their burden wholly on the Ministers of the Crown."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November. 1938; Vol. 341, cc. 1128 and 1129.]
Mr. Macmillan: Look at the picture. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was then my Leader. He is still my Leader. He was right then, he is right now. Hon. Gentlemen were wrong then—all of them, without any exceptions. I know that many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have been converted. We know they are subject to rapid conversations. Last Friday, for instance, we had the agreeable spectacle of the most improbable Cabinet Ministers turning up here as riders to beagles and pursuers of the otter. I have no doubt that on Friday week we shall see the Lord President of the Council in his special new impersonation of Mr. Jorrocks.
I say that if they have asked for a blank cheque—and they have asked for a blank cheque—they cannot stand upon their record. They have given us no information. If they tell us that it is contrary to the public interest to publish in this House or in another place any greater details than are in this Paper, to give us any more information than the right hon. Gentleman has given in his speech this afternoon; if they tell us as Ministers of the Crown that they feel it their duty to give no greater degree of information, either in broad picture or in detail, than they have given today, then a heavy burden rests upon them and we must accept it. If, however, Ministers ask for a blank cheque, they also take upon themselves a heavy responsibility. Ministers, of course, hold in this prime matter of the defence of the Realm the supreme responsibility that any men can hold, to the King and to their fellow subjects. But an Opposition also has a duty, and we intend to perform our duty tonight.
9.35 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) made an allusion to the celebrated trial of the case of Bardell v. Pickwick. I am bound to say that at times he reminded me of Serjeant Buzfuz, with a good deal of—
"Chops and Tomata Sauce, Good Heavens!"

659
about it. But I was interested in his speech, because there was a certain contrast between him and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley). The right hon. Gentleman devoted a good deal of his speech to the subject of collective security. Even he, curiously enough, seems to pooh-pooh this White Paper as saying nothing, although, as a matter of fact, the greatest developments that we have seen of collective security, vigorously led and pursued by this Government, both in Western Union and the movement towards Atlantic security—
Mr. Macmillan: And The Hague.
The Prime Minister: Yes. We got no acknowledgment from the right hon. Gentleman of that but he did, at least, speak about collective security. The right hon. Member for West Bristol spoke very little of it. Perhaps that was due to the past of those right hon. Gentlemen, because the right hon. Member for Bromley, when he used to sit below the Gangway, supported collective security. He will remember that every time we spoke against those Estimates that were brought forward it was because the Government of the day would not follow collective security. We voted against them because, as is now seen by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite—and was only too painfully seen in 1939—their policy left us to fight alone.
The right hon. Member for Bromley made two other points. One was with regard to bombers. It is a pity—
Earl Winterton: The right hon. Gentleman is arguing like a Liberal.
The Prime Minister: It is quite true that in those days, when we were arguing collective security, we were fortunate in having the support of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and the right hon. Gentleman who then represented Caithness and Sutherland. I wish it had not been so late before we got enlarged support from the Conservative Party.
The right hon. Gentleman dealt with two other points. I think he had omitted, perhaps, to notice that, in addition to the White Paper on Defence, there are also the Service Estimates and the
660
introduction of the Secretary of State for Air. He would have found in that Paper what he seemed to think was secret revealed only in another place, a matter regarding bombers. The other point—about which, I must say, I was rather surprised—was his line about the Middle East. At one time he knew a great deal about the Middle East. I am afraid he has got a bit rusty if he thinks we have no friends in the Middle East. He is entirely wrong.
Except for the right hon. Gentleman, who gave us a performance in a good, blusterous style, this has been rather a quiet Debate. I am afraid that some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have been able to attend this Debate were inconvenienced because they were not able to attend what I understand was some form of an inquest on their party. But we have had an interesting Debate and there have been some extremely useful speeches.
The hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) raised a point, in which he said there was no statement of priorities with regard to the Air Force in the White Paper this year. If that had been put in, he would have said, "You are only repeating what you said last year." There was, as a matter of fact, set out very clearly in the White Paper last year exactly what those priorities were, and there has been no change in the emphasis placed on the importance of the Air Force.
Some speeches, I thought, were perhaps more suitable for Debates on the Service Estimates than for a defence Debate. I think that applied to the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) on one side of the House, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Symonds) on the other. But there were a number of very thoughtful speeches from both sides of the House and I noticed particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley), my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Dr. Segal), the hon. Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) and the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head). I will try to pick up some of their points in the course of my remarks.
There was one special question put by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), who

661
raised the question of deferments, and I will give him the figures. He can take up the matter again, if he wishes, on the Service Estimates. The figures of deferred were: 18,000 agricultural workers, 8,000 for the mines, 5,000 students, 70,000 apprentices and 9,000 in the Merchant Navy. The Control of Engagement Order makes it quite impossible for any person to escape ultimate liability to serve.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Will the Prime Minister say whether the figures, in particular the large item for apprentices, are gross or net figures, because there must be some apprentices who were deferred some years ago coming into the Services.
The Prime Minister: Those are this year's figures. The hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers) raised the question of the utilisation of civilians. That is a matter which has had a great deal of attention. We have already done something in that matter. It is desirable, wherever we can, to relieve military personnel from services which can be done better by civilians. That matter requires a good deal of consideration. The hon. Member for North Blackpool suggested that the Government had refused to give Opposition leaders information as it used to be given before the war. I know the amount which was given and the limitation on the amount given, because I was Leader of the Opposition for some long time before the war. Perhaps it has escaped his attention that the Leader of the Opposition gave me notice that he would like to come to see me on defence and I am prepared to receive him at any time, but so far he has not notified me of the time when he wants to see me. [Interruption.]
Major Bruce: Where is he?
The Prime Minister: I am not complaining at all, but I am only saying, in order to put the matter on record, that he did approach me and, of course, I said I would be pleased to see him.
Mr. Brendan Bracken: Very kind of the right hon. Gentleman.
The Prime Minister: I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman wants to make such a remark as that. Would he not have done so?
662
The right hon. Member for West Bristol opened mainly on a complaint of lack of information. I think that both he and the right hon. Member for Bromley suggested that the White Paper had been composed by a certain amount of stuff being sent round from various Departments and hastily put together in the Ministry of Defence. That reminds me of a speech I made on the subject when the first Defence Paper was issued, which I think was correct. But this time I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the White Paper on Defence is prepared in the Defence Ministry and does not come from the Departments to the Ministry of Defence, but goes from the Ministry of Defence and is taken up with the Departments and very fully discussed by Ministers. The Defence White Paper is not designed to go into great detail. There are also the Estimates and the introduction to the Estimates of the various Services. It is a mistake to think that the whole of this information can be put into one Defence Paper. All the detailed information cannot be put in.
I would, however, like to deal with the question of the amount of information which can be given. Certain facts stand out. It is a fact that the Germans benefited very much from excessive information which was given before the war. That does not mean to say that we should close down on all information, but it shows that there is a danger. Documents which we have inspected show that they got quite a lot of information which it would have been better they should not have had. Secondly, it is possible to exaggerate the scale upon which people pick up information they should not get. The idea that everything is known everywhere is not true. We have found that out by experience.
It is not easy to draw the exact line as to what information should be given and what should not. Personally I should like to give as much as possible. One of the dangers is that of giving incomplete information which may have a misleading effect. Secondly, if one gives incomplete information one is harried for more information to make it complete, and eventually one finds one is driven into giving rather more information than anyone would wish. I would wish to assure hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that we consult very

663
carefully on this matter. We have looked into it and we are advised that in present conditions we should not release a great deal more information. Last year I looked especially into this matter at the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), and I wrote to him in due course, pointing out that I did not see how we could release more information at present. I am always prepared to look at it again, and perhaps if an example could be set in other countries, we might get a little more information. [An HON. MEMBER: "America."] I know, but I was not looking in that direction.
The next point I wish to make in regard to the speech of the right hon. Member for West Bristol is that I thought there were underlying assumptions in it which were not justified. He seemed to judge our position from the standpoint of stable conditions. Despite what the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head) said, we are only just completing one of the greatest turnovers of manpower in the history of the Services. It is no use saying "That is an old story which you have told us before," because the facts are still with us. That turnover took place on the basis of the accepted plan put forward by the wartime Government, and that plan, together with the cessation of regular recruiting during the war, inevitably causes a great lack of balance in the Forces. I think that was recognised at the time it was accepted by this House. The programme was accelerated. Various things follow from that. It takes a long time to make a new fully peace-time Army.
Secondly, in regard to weapons we cannot suddenly change all our weapons. We have to use the weapons we have got. We have to hold the balance between the new and the old. Everybody knows that if we are everlastingly seeking for perfection we get the case of the best being the enemy of the good. Clearly, we have to have a plan there. Weapon production comes forward slowly, and some modern weapons take a very long time. The case has already been made with regard to aircraft. The aircraft coming into this country now were started during the war, and it takes a long time. All the time, a change-over
664
was taking place, and we have not got all the aircraft that we would like to have, but they are being developed. In the same way, it takes a long time to build up a navy with ships, and we might like to have more cruisers. All these things take a long time, and we must have a long-term programme.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: We must also have some in reserve, as well as in commission.
The Prime Minister: That is quite right, but the amount that we put in commission at any one time must have regard to other considerations. I am sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will fight that out with others who have suggested that we were doing too much for the Royal Navy.
We also have to have regard to the economic position of this country, for that is the basis of the whole defence position of any country. I thought the right hon. Gentleman was rather postulating that this was a position in which we were getting a great Navy, Army and Air Force, all just keyed up for a major European war, and he was rather scornful of what I think he termed putting the long-term defence plan first in the list of the three considerations, though, curiously enough, the whole emphasis of the latter part of his speech was that we must have a plan. Certainly, we must have a long-term plan, but we must also deal with the possibilities in the near future, and we must also deal with the actualities of what exists at the present time. That is not an awfully easy position to be in.
Of course, we are working to a long-term plan with a view to having certain forces ready, with a certain scale of Reserves, at a certain time, but there must be a degree of flexibility in that plan. For instance, we are now working in with Western Union, and we hope to be working with the Atlantic Powers. We want to make our plan such that it will fit in with our other plans for collective security with other Powers. The right hon. Member for Bromley was rather previous suggesting that one might answer that all this had already been fixed concerning what the allocations must be. Inevitably, it takes a long time to fix these things, and it is not wholly a question of what this Government can do.

665
The right hon. Gentleman, who has had experience, knows perfectly well that it is a question of what we can do together with other people. I thought that my right hon. Friend in his speech gave an expansion of what was in the White Paper, showing the very considerable progress that has been made, both with regard to command, supply and finance questions and all the rest concerning Western Union. It is very remarkable progress, and, surely, it is wise that our plan must have a certain flexibility. One cannot prophesy right ahead as to what we should have, without taking into account what our Allies are going to have.
The right hon. Gentleman asked questions about how many divisions we have got and so on, and I rather think that there is a little 1914 thinking in some of this. In 1914, as we all remember, there was a threat of war. There were plans for war on the Continent, plans that were already made. But this time we are in a rather more difficult situation. We have to work out a plan for the future. Actually, at the present time, we are engaged in what is called the cold war. That inevitably means a certain dispersal of our Forces; it inevitably means also that we have rather a greater tail to our formation, because it is one thing to have a formation sitting at home here on fixed establishments and the rest, and quite another to have it operating out in the world. Inevitably, therefore, the tail gets far greater than we would wish.
I know that the right hon. Member for Bromley remembers the difficulty we had during the war. I remember how often, talking with the right hon. Member for Woodford, we sought to reduce this enormous amount that we get now in, so to speak, the haft behind the spearhead. The complication of modern warfare prevents one doing that. It is the dispersal, as we must be dispersed at the present time. Therefore, it is not a very good comparison to look at this with 1914. One can establish so many divisions here and there if one brings them back, but at the present moment we are inevitably dispersed.
Though he went rather far in that, I thought that the right hon. Gentleman returned to the path of wisdom when he
666
talked of the need for holding a balance between the people whom he called the "Blimps" and the "Boffins." That is a very sound point, and a point we have to bear in mind. There are people who think that we do not need an Air Force; that we need nothing but an atomic bomb. There are always some people thinking in terms of the war before the last. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. One has to look ahead with the new weapon. One has also to keep the old ones in being as long as one may need to use them, and, with the existence of the cold war, one has to have these weapons in one's hand.
I would like to say a word on recruiting. We have taken a great deal of trouble in looking into this question. I have talked with a good many people, and I cannot be quite so absolute as the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames or some others who seemed to think it was entirely a question of money. It is not entirely a question of money. In the matter of recruiting, there is, first of all, the question of the desire to serve, and we can all do our part in helping that side of recruiting. Next, there is the doing of a worth-while job, and that is a very big work for the Services. It has been very difficult, under the circumstances at the present time, to get back to the old regimental conditions where one is not separated from one's pals instead of moving people about all over the place. We are trying to re-create that position. Then there are the living conditions, and, without blaming anybody, we all know that for years our barracks were neglected, and were frightfully out of date. It takes a long time to overtake that sort of thing. Today, we have more married people, and more younger married people, and therefore we have to do what we can in regard to that.
Finally, there comes the question of security in employment, and then, again, there is pay. I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that pay can be fixed on the lines of some hypothetical person working on the basis of piece rates. We have tried to make it broadly comparable, but I do not think we can do more than that.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 155.

Division No. 72.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

McAdam, W.

Albu, A. H.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

McAllister, G.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

Evan, S. N. (Wednesbury)

McEntee, V. La T.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Ewart, R.

McGhee, H. G.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Fairhurst, F.

Mack, J. D.

Alpass, J. H.

Farthing, W. J.

McKinlay, A. S.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Field, Capt. W. J.

McLeavy, F.

Attewell, H. C.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Follick, M.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Awbery, S. S.

Foot, M. M.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Ayles, W. H.

Forman, J. C.

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Bacon, Miss A.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Baird, J.

Freeman, J. (Watford)

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Balfour, A.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Gibbins, J.

Marquand, Rt. Hon H. A.

Barstow, P. G.

Gibson, C. W.

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Barton, C.

Gilzean, A.

Medland, H. M.

Battley, J. R.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Mellish, R. J.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Gooch, E. G.

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Millington, Wing-Comdr E. R.

Benson, G.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

Mitchison, G. R.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Monslow, W.

Bevin, Rt. Hon E. (Wandsworth, C.)

Grey, C. F.

Morgan, Dr H. B.

Bing, G.H. C.

Grierson, E.

Morley, R.

Binns, J.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Blackburn, A. R.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Lianeily)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

BlenKinsop, A.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham. E.)

Blyton, W. R.

Gunter, R. J.

Moyle, A.

Boardman, H.

Guy. W. H.

Murray, J. D.

Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

Naily, W.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L"pl. Exch"ge)

Bramall, E.A.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Naylor, T. E.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Hamilton, Lieut.-col. R.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Brown, George. (Belper)

Hardman, D. R.

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Brown, T.J.(Ince)

Hardy E. A.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon P. J. (Derby)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

O'Brien, T.

Butler, H. W. (HacKney, S.)

Haworth, J.

Oliver, G. H.

Bulter, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Carmichael, James

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Paling, W. T. (Dewsbury)

Chamberlain, R. A.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Champion, A. J.

Hicks, G.

Pargiter, G. A.

Chater, D.

Hobson, C. R.

Parker, J.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Holman, p.

Parkin, B. T.

Cocks, F. S.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Coldrick, W.

Horabin, T. L.

Pearson, A.

Collick, P.

Hughes, H. D. (W"Iverh"pton, W.)

Peart, T. F.

Collindridge, F.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Perrins, W.

Collins, V. J.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Popplewell, E.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

porter, E. (Warrington)

Comyns, Dr. L.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon G. A.

porter, G. (Leeds)

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb"well, N.W.)

Janner, B.

Price, M. Philips

Corlett, Dr. J.

Jay, D. P. T.

Proctor, W. T.

Cove, W. G.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Pryde, D. J.

Crawley, A.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. pancras, S. E.)

Pursey, Comdr. H.

Cullen, Miss

Jenkins, R. H.

Randall, H. E.

Dagger, G.

Johnston, Douglas

Rankin, J.

Daines, P.

Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Reeves, J.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Jones, Jack (Bolton)

Rhodes, H.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Robens, A.

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Keenan, W

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Dear, G.

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Rogers, G. H. R.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

King, E. M.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Diamond, J.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Royle, C.

Debbie, W.

Kinley, J.

Sargood, R.

Dodds, N. N.

Kirby, B. V.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Donovan, T.

Lang, G.

Segal, Dr. S.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Lavers, S.

Shackieton, E. A. A.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Sharp, Granville

Dumpleton, C. W.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Dye, S.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Leslie, J. R.

Silverman, J (Erdington)

Edelman, M.

Levy, B. W.

Simmons, C. J.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Skeffington A. M.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Skinnard, F. W.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Smith, H N. (Nottingham, S.)

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Lyne, A. W.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Soskice, Rt. Hon, Sir Frank

Tolley, L

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Sparks, J. A.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Steele, T.

Turner-Samuels, M

Williams, J. L.(Kelvingrove)

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J

Usborne, Henry

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth)

Vernon, Mai W E

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Stross, Dr. B.

Viant, S. P.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith

Walker, G. H.

Willis, E.

Swingler, S

Wallace, H W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Sylvester, G. O.

Warbey, W N.

Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.

Symonds, A. L.

Weitzman, D.

Wilson, Rt Hon. J. H.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Wise, Major F. J.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Wells, W T (Walsall)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

West, D. G.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

White, H (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Zilliacus, K

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Thurtle, Ernest

Wilkes, L.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Tiffany, S.

Wilkins, W. A.

Mr. Snow and

Titterington, M. F

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Mr. George Wallace.

NOES

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Nicholson, G.

Asshcton, Rt Hon. R

Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

Nield, B. (Chester)

Baldwin, A. E.

Harvey, Air-Comdre, A. V.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Baxter, A. B.

Head, Brig A. H.

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Beechman, N. A.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Bennett, Sir P.

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Pickthorn, K.

Birch, Niget

Hinchigbrooke, Viscount

Ponsondy, Col. C. E.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Hollis, M. C

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Bowen, R.

Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Bower, N.

Howard, Hon. A.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Hudson, Rt. Hon, R. S. (Southport)

Raikes, H. V.

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Hurd, A.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

Renton, D.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T.

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Jennings, R.

Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

Byers, Frank

Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Robinson, Roland

Carson, E.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Challen, C.

Lancaster, Col. C. G

Sanderson, Sir F.

Channon, H.

Langford-Holt, J.

Savory, Prof. D. L.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Shepherd, W S. (Bucklow)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Linstead, H. N.

Smithers, Sir W

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Lipson, D. L.

Snadden, W. M

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Lloyd, Maj Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Spearman, A. C. M

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

Crcwder, Capt. John E.

Low, A. R. W.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Lyttelton, Rt, Hon O.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

MaoAndrew, Col. Sir C.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

De la Bére, R.

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd"t"n, S.)

Digby, S. W.

Macdonald, Sir P. (I of Wight)

Teeling, William

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Thomas, J P. L. (Hereford)

Dower, Col. A, V. G. (Penrith)

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Thorneycroft, G E. P. (Monmouth)

Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

Drayson, G. B

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Turton, R H.

Drewe, C.

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Vane, W M. F.

Duthie, W. S.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Wadsworth, G.

Eocles, D. M.

Manningham-Buller, R. E

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Erroll, F. J.

Marlowe, A. A. H,

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Marsden, Capt. A.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale.)

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Fyte, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Gage, C.

Maude, J. C.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Gammans, L. D

Medlicott, Brigadier F.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Molson, A H. E.

York, C.

George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

Young, Sir A. S. L.(Partick)

Glyn, Sir R.

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Granville, E. (Eye)

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Grimston, R. V.

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Commander Agnew and

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

Mr. Studholme.

Main Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 3.

Division No. 73.]

AYES

[10.13 p.m

Acland, Sir Richard

Gibbins, J.

O'Brlen, T.

Adams, Richard (Batham)

Gibson, C W

Oliver, G. H.

Albu, A. H

Gilzean, A

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Alexander, Rt. Hon A. V

Glanville, J. E (Consett)

Paling, W. T. (Dewsbury)

Allen, A C (Bosworth)

Gooch, E G

Palmer, A M F

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Gordon-Walker, P C

Parker, J

Anderson, A. (Motherwoll)

Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

Pearson, A.

Attlee, Rt. Hon C. R

Grey, C. F

Peart, T. F

Awbery, S. S.

Grierson, E

Perrins, W

Bacon, Miss A

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Popplewell, E.

Baird, J.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

Porter, E (Warrington)

Balfour, A

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Porter, G (Leeds)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Gunter, R J

Price, M Philips

Barstow, P. G

Guy, W H.

Proctor, W T

Barton, C

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

Pryde, D. J.

Bechervarse A E.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Pursey, Comdr. H.

Benson, G

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Randall, H E.

Bevin, Rt. Hon. E. (Wandsworth, C.)

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Rankin, J

Bing, G. H C

Hardy, E. A.

Rees-W.lliams, D R

Binns, J

Henderson, Rt Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Rhodes, H.

Blackburn, A. R

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Robens, A.

Blenkinsop, A

Hewilson, Capt. M

Royle, C.

Blyton, W. R

Hobson, C R

Scott-Elliot, W.

Boardman, H.

Holman, P

Segal, Dr S

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W

Holmes, H E. (Hemsworth)

Shackleton, E. A. A.

BraddocK, Mrs. E M. (L"pl. Exch" ge)

Horabin, T L.

Sharp, Granville

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Silkin, Rt. Hon L

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Irvine, A J (Liverpoo1)

Simmons, C. J

Brown, George (Belper)

Isaacs, Rt Hon. G. A

Skeffington, A. M.

Brown, T J. (Ince)

Janner, B.

Smith, H. N. (Nottinghum, S.)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Jeger, Dr. S W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Jenkins, R. H

Sparks, J. A

Carmichael, James

Jones, Rt Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

Steele, T.

Chamberlain, R A.

Jones, D T (Hartlepool)

Stewart, Miehael (Fulham, E.)

Champion, A J.

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Strachey, Rt. Hon J

Chetwynd, G. R.

Cocks, F S.

Jones, Jack (Bolton)

Strauss, Rt. Hon G R (Lambeth)

Coldrick, W

Keenan, W

Stress, Dr B.

Collick, P

Klnghorn, San.-Ldr. E.

Summerskill, Rt. Hon Edith

Collindridge, F

Kinley, J.

Swingler, S

Collins, V. J.

Kirby, B. V.

Sylvester, G. O.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Lang, G.

Symonds, A. L.

Comyns, Dr. L.

Lavers, S

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Cooper, G

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Taylor, Dr S. (Barnet)

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb" well, N. W.)

Lewis. A W. J. (Upton)

Thomas, D E (Aberdare)

Corlett, Dr J

Lewis, J (Bolton)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Crawley, A

Lipson, D. L.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Cullen, Miss

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Tiffany, S.

Daggar, G

Lyne, A. W.

Tolley, L.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

McAllister, G.

Ungoed-Thomas, L

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

McEntee, V. La T.

Usborne, Henry

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

McGhee, H G.

Walker, G. H.

Davies, Haydn (St Pancran, S.W.)

McKinlay, A. S.

Wallace, H W (Walthamstow, E.)

Deer, G

MoLeavy, F.

Warbey, W. N.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

McNeil, Rt Hon. H.

Weitzman, D.

Diamond, J.

MacPherson, Maloolm (Stirling)

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Macpherson, T (Romford)

West, D. G.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwion)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.

Dumpleton, C W.

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Wilkes, L

Dye, S.

Marquand. Rt Hon. H A.

Wilkins, W A.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Edelman, M.

Medland, H. M.

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Mellish, R. J.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. N.(Caerphilly)

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Millingten, Wing-Comdr. E. R

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Evans, E (Lowestoft)

Mitchison, G. R.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Morley, R.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Evans, S N. (Wednesbury)

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Willis, E.

Ewart, R

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Wills, Mrs E. A.

Fairhurst, F.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.

Farthing, W. J.

Moyle, A.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H

Field, Capt. W. J.

Murray, J D

Wise, Major F. J.

Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.)

Nally, W

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

Foot, M M

Naylor, T. E.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Forman, J. C.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Younger, Hon Kenneth

Freeman, J (Walford)

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Ganley, Mrs C. S

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. Snow and Mr. George Wallace

NOES

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Pritt, D. N.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

platts-Mills, J. F F.

Mr. Gallacher and Mr. Piratin.

Resolved:

"That this House approves the Statement for Defence (Command Paper No. 7631)."

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  MILK (SPECIAL DESIGNATIONS) [MONEY]
  Resolution reported:
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to render compulsory the use of special designations on sales of milk by retail in specified areas and for other purposes, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Food in providing facilities for the subjection of milk to any process to which it is required to be subjected as a condition of the use of a special designation in connection therewith, or, where he provides such facilities, in buying the milk to be treated or in treating milk, or in paying expenses incurred by local authorities or other persons in doing such things as aforesaid on his behalf, and to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of payments received by the said Minister for milk sold after treatment or for treating milk; and

  (b) to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of remuneration and allowances to the chairman of any tribunal constituted for the purposes of provisions relating to the revocation, suspension or refusal of licences authorising the use of special designations."

  Resolution agreed to

  PREVENTION OF DAMAGE BY PESTS [MONEY]
  Resolution reported:
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to re-enact with modifications the Rats and Mice (Destruction) Act, 1919, to make permanent provision for preventing loss of food by infestation and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any sums required by the Minister (that is to say, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Secretary of State) for making to local authorities, subject to such conditions as the Minister may with the consent of the Treasury determine, grants equal to one half of the expediture incurred by those authorities under Part I of the said Act, so far as not recovered thereunder;

  (b) any expenses incurred under the said Act by the Minister—

  (i) in respect of the exercise on behalf of a local authority of any functions of that authority under Part I of the said Act;

  (ii) in respect of steps taken for securing compliance with any directions given by the Minister under Part II of the said Act;

  674

  (iii) in repaying to local authorities to whom functions of the Minister under the said Part II are delegated any expenses incurred by them in the performance of those functions;

  (iv) in the payment of compensation in respect of damage to land occasioned in the exercise of any power of entry under the said Act;

  (c) any increase in the Exchequer Equalisation Grant payable under Part I or Part II of the Local Government Act, 1948, attributable to any expenditure of a local authority under the said Act of the present Session;

  (d) any increase attributable to the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under the Agriculture Act, 1947;

  (e) any administration expenses of the Minister under the said Act of the present Session; and

  (f) any expenses of the Minister in carrying out research in matters connected with the functions of the Minister and of local authorities under the said Act of the present Sessions;

  and the payment into the Exchequer of any receipts of the Minister under the said Act of the present Session."
  Resolution agreed to.

  POTTERY INDUSTRY (DEVELOPMENT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Snow.]
  10.22 p.m.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: Tonight I want to draw the attention of the House to a matter of great concern to the people engaged in the pottery industry with particular reference to North Staffordshire. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will know, this matter has been under consideration for a considerable time now, and great disappointment is felt in the area which I have the honour to represent, particularly by the organised workers and by people who are directly concerned with the industry, because the Government have been so diffident—I will not say dilatory—in setting up what we had hoped would be a development council which by this time would be working and producing results.
  It will be remembered that under the Industrial Organisation and Development Act, 1947, it was proposed that some kind of machinery should be devised for certain of this country's industries, which would enable the best experience and the best methods to be available to the in-

  675
  dustry generally, and particularly to the little producers. A great deal of work has been done by way of research in the pottery industry, and as far back as January, 1945, the National Society of Pottery Workers produced a valuable document on the reconstruction of the pottery industry. What did it say? It said:
  "The pottery industry must be completely reorganised during the reconstruction period. But a plan for the pottery industry cannot be worked out in isolation; it must be part of a national plan for the general development of industry."
  It said that the first and most obvious need was a drastic slum clearance of a large number of obsolete and unhealthy factories and the modernisation of the remainder. It proposed a system of licensing when new factories were to be brought into being and suggested that such licensing should have reference to the lay-out and the suitability of the premises to be used. That is a particularly important aspect, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley (Dr. Stross) will show if he has the opportunity of catching your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, when he will refer to the medical and welfare aspects of the conditions under which the generality of workers in the pottery industry are engaged.
  The intention was that there should be some sort of condition to determine whether or not a licence should be issued, that the conditions of the factory should reach a certain standard, that the factory should be better in terms of lay-out and that there should be more factory inspectors, and that in matters of price there should be some sort of control exercised by the Board of Trade. The report went on to speak about the mass production of standardised ware of a higher quality and better design at rates cheap enough for the home and export markets. It said that if production was to be cheapened, it was to be done through increased efficiency and not lower wages. It went on to say that the first essential was for the Government to accept the principles of planned exports and to begin preparing the way for future trade agreements. It made a lot of other useful suggestions and the report was widely commented upon. A distinguished journal, which is by no means always sympathetic to the Government, the
  676
  "Economist," had certain things to say to which I might usefully refer. It said:
  "The pottery industry is not an industry which is likely to reach a satisfactory state by being left alone. There is a general case for intervention by public authority. The nature of the intervention is a matter of the greatest concern to the 80,000 men and women workers attached to the industry whose life is so closely tied up with the fortunes of pottery manufacture in this country. About 67,000 of them live in the Stafford-shire District. Pottery is one of the most localised of English industries, and the workers have little chance of beautiful alternative occupation if the pottery industry fails them. Lack of contact with other industries has contributed to the survival of old customs and methods and the comparative absence of alternative occupation has led to depressed pottery wages and conditions."
  It quoted a statement made as far back as 1915 that in the whole of the Staffordshire District over 60 per cent. of the potteries ought to be scrapped and modern works put up.
  "With notable exceptions, such as Wedgwood's new factory at Barlaston, the inter-war period has seen so little scrapping and reconstruction,"
  says the "Economist" but of course since the war there has been a considerable amount of rebuilding and alteration in the pottery industry. My point is that while licences have been forthcoming, there has not seemed to be any machinery for co-ordinating the work to any plan either from the Board of Trade or from any responsible body on the spot and it would seem that in reference to new, economical development and the future of the industry that is a very essential matter indeed.
  We have pressed this matter with the Board of Trade on many occasions. But before I go on to refer to those occasions and to show how very patient we have been, I would say that in addition to the excellent report which was produced by the workers—the Reconstruction Report—there was a Working Party set up which reported as far back as 1945. It was the first Working Party report to be published. It, again, made very great criticism of some of the conditions to be found in the industry. It also made a series of recommendations. True it did not propose the setting up of a Development Council, but it suggested some sort of pottery advisory board. They were prepared, I think, to consider that there should be some kind of independent representation of the outside world, and

  677
  that possibly the Government point of view should be listened to.
  That, I think, was one of the reports which persuaded the Government that the pottery industry, and other small industries in the country which in total are very important to the economic life of the country, should be provided for in the Industrial Development and Organisation Act of 1947. But alas, although we were led to expect that some fruitful results would emerge from this legislation, we have not seen anything of a tangible nature yet. As far back as 18th December, 1947, questions were asked in this House as to what progress had been made. We were then told by the President of the Board of Trade that discussions were proceeding with the several industries, and that though they had not hitherto gone as far and as fast as he would have liked, he intended to press them forward and hoped to be able to lay proposals before the House early in the New Year.
  Again on 29th January, 1948, the President of the Board of Trade said:
  "We shall certainly press forward without delay."
  Again on 18th March, I asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he would announce the date of the setting up of the Pottery Development Council, and its composition. He replied:
  "I am not yet in a position to announce the date of the setting up of the Pottery Development Council, or its composition. Discussions with the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation have been unavoidably delayed for a few weeks. I hope shortly to have final discussions with them, as I am most anxious to see the Council established."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th March, 1948; Vol. 448, col. 2291.]
  I pressed the Minister again, and he said that at a meeting with the Pottery Manufacturers' Federation last month they advanced certain proposals as alternatives to those which I put forward, on which they considered agreement on both sides of the pottery industry could be reached. The Minister added:
  "Though I remain of the opinion that a Development Council is desirable in this industry, I agreed that the employers should discuss there new proposals with the union concerned, and I arranged that they should report the result of these discussions to me at a joint meeting with representatives of the union to be held soon after Whitsun."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1948; Vol. 450, col. 195.]
  678
  We pressed the matter further in June, and on the 17th of that month I asked what progress was being made with the setting up of development councils generally, and in particular in reference to the formation of a development council for the pottery industry? The President of the Board of Trade said:
  "As I told my hon. Friend on 11th May the reason for the hold-up in the pottery scheme was that the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation were discussing with the National Society of Pottery Workers an alternative scheme they had formulated. The proposals were not in fact acceptable to the National Society, but they have now been formally referred to me by the Federation, and I have undertaken to consider them and am at present doing so."
  Pressed to take decisive action, the President said:
  "Yes, it is certainly time for decisive action, and I can promise that to him before the House adjourns …"
  that is, for the Summer Recess. The President went on:
  "The delay has been caused by the illness of the president of the Pottery Manufacturers' Federation and by the somewhat havering attitude of the trade unions concerned. Certainly I can promise some action in the near future."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 17th June, 1948: Vol. 452, c. 634.]
  In September of last year, he said, in an Adjournment Debate, that the pottery manufacturers declared themselves as irrevocably opposed to a council under the Act, or to any executive functions being given to any non-statutory body which might be established. Equally, on the other side, he said the unions were implacably opposed to the establishment of any body which was not scheduled under the Act and which did not possess the functions set out in the draft order submitted to both sides of the industry earlier last year. He added,
  "That is the position at the moment …
  it had been the position for many months,
  "and, in view of that position, and the fact that discussions are still proceeding, I do not think it would be very helpful at this stage to say anything definite about what I expect to happen in the course of the next few weeks, but, I promise my hon. Friend that I will keep both him, and the House, very fully informed of the progress of the negotiations, and I will do all I can from now on to speed up some settlement of this long overdue and extremely urgent matter "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th September, 1948; Vol. 456, c. 50–51.]
  In addition to these questions, I can cite correspondence and other reports of other

  679
  negotiations with, and visits to, the Board of Trade in order to press the point of view which the pottery workers were wanting expressed and for which they were pressing. Now, I think that it is quite obvious that we have been fobbed off for a sufficiently long time. Surely, what the record clearly shows is that the pottery manufacturers now have come to the view, which they have clearly stated, that they are irrevocably opposed to the setting up of a development council. The Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies tonight, may say, as the President of the Board of Trade—now the Chancellor of the Exchequer—said in introducing the Industrial Development Bill, that it is the desire of the Government to obtain the goodwill and co-operation of all sides of the industry; but it is clearly demonstrated in other industries, besides pottery, where it is proposed to set up a council, the employers and workers are opposed. Further, I think they have come to the conclusion which has been stated, and I hope that the Government will realise that it is little use prolonging the argument any more. Some action is called for to deal with the outstanding problems of the pottery industry. We cannot go on hoping that the sellers' market will continue. There are great strides being made in the mechanisation of the industry and, in April, 1945, the "Economist" reported on this.
  In 20 years' time, with increased mechanisation, and competition from overseas, there may be a contraction of 30 or 40 per cent. of the labour forces necessary to conduct the industry. We are pressing this case because it means the opportunity of a better life for so many of the workers in North Staffordshire. If there is to be a contraction of industry, those responsible for the conduct of this industry should not be opposing the introduction of new industries in the area because they say this will abstract female labour. If these people continue to be so obtuse and so obstructionist, I say that the time has come for the Government to listen to the substantial number of people engaged in the industry who, under the Act, have the making of a decision to set up a development council.
  Surely this is a matter of great moment to some 70,000 people in North Stafford-
  680
  shire and to 10,000 people in the outposts of the country elsewhere engaged in the manufacture of pottery. They should know what is going to happen to the industry. Moreover, I would say that it is most essential that the Board of Trade, with all its resources, should place at the disposal of the industry all the information that it has relating to world conditions, and to the methods which should be employed to extend and conserve our markets and to advise them as to what are the best principles of procedure in terms of factory lay-out and in the supply of materials. It should pay attention to the very cogent arguments adduced after hard thinking as to the necessity for setting up some large-scale organisation which shall have reference to this twin problem of whether we should concentrate (a) and quality or (b) on quantity in production, as those are two distinct matters.
  Above all, some research is wanted by responsible Departments and unless we have a development council set up which shall bring all these industries together, which shall give us this experience, which shall give us the benefit of advice from the Board of Trade, give us a chance of seeing what the future of the industry will be, and also attend to the planning of the city and our industry, we shall find ourselves sunk.
  10.42 p.m.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: I want to say a word about the human aspect of this problem. I must declare my interest by saying that for some 23 years I have been medical adviser to the Pottery Workers Society of Great Britain and I am therefore conversant with the aspect on which I wish to touch. I wish to support what my colleague has said because the health of the workers, the men, women and children in the industry, is involved in the setting up of the development council. The council would have, it was proposed, executive powers and there would be collaboration between worker and employer in order, this time, to take this very serious problem in hand once and for all. We have a saying in the area that lead has killed its thousands, and dust its tens of thousands—and indeed that is very true.
  As a result of public agitation and Government action in the past, we have eliminated completely today the hazard

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  of lead and there are no more cases of lead poisoning at all; I have not seen one for three years in the area and if there were any they would have been brought to my notice. But there are slum factories which we still possess and which we shall go on possessing—factories in which the old wooden floors reverberate with every footstep and clouds of dust arise from the clay trodden in and dried every day, factories with windows that do not open, factories built 200 years ago. Far too many of them are still in use and with such environmental factors it is not safe or reasonable for our workers to continue and expect to retain their health. What I am pleading for is indeed for the benefit of the industry as a whole, for output per man-hour cannot really be substantial and cannot be improved so long as there is no improvement in the type of factory in which the workers are engaged.
  This is not to say that there has not been great improvement in some factories in the last few years, and particularly since the war. But since 1945 new slum factories—if such a term may be used—have come into existence and have been given licences. They have, as it were, slipped through. This is something we cannot contemplate very much longer. It is not reasonable that we should wait for what is called healthy competition to eliminate these slum factories, because healthy competition is very unhealthy for the workers, and means sickness and premature death. It is a subject on which one could speak at length, but we should like my hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to be able to give some answer.
  10.46 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Edwards): I appreciate the reasons which have led my hon. Friends to be so persistent about this matter. I suspect that if I were in their places I should be quite as persistent. I understand at least some of the factors which were outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Burslem (Mr. Edward Davies) at the beginning of his speech. Doubtless there are many things in the pottery industries which have to be put right. I should not like it to be thought, and I do not expect my hon. Friends would think, that nothing has
  682
  been done. A good deal has been done. I am told that more than £1 million of new building has taken place and we have been trying also to plan the export trade, and to do what we can to tackle the problems which arise. Whether the existence of a development council would mean that we should be able to deal quickly. with these things I do not know, but I should certainly subscribe to the view that a good development council, backed by the industry, would give us another instrument for dealing with the problems of planning the industry and with those important health considerations, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley (Dr. Stross) has just been talking.
  I know that my hon. Friends have some grounds for saying that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has not quite lived up to some of the expectations he put into their minds, but I assure them that the fact that there has been no move recently on the question of a development council for this industry does not mean that it has been shelved. I can restate the opinion of my right hon. Friend that there should be a development council with a constitution and function suitably adapted to meet the needs of the industry. I appreciate the anxiety of my hon. Friends and I understand as an old trade unionist the views of the union and the large number of workers they represent. My right hon. Friend, holding this view as he does strongly, is anxious to proceed if he can by way of agreement, because the chances of the council functioning properly would be greater if we could get substantial support for it from both sides of the industry. Therefore, my right hon. Friend will shortly be re-opening the subject with both sides, to see if some accommodation can be reached so that we can go forward united in setting up the development council which it is agreed is desirable. I am sorry that greater progress has not been made up to date, but I assure my hon. Friends that I shall keep them in touch with any subsequent development.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Ten Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

  HANDICAPPED PERSONS (ADVISORY COUNCIL)
  HANDICAPPED PERSONS (ADVISORY COUNCIL)
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Tuberculosis Beds
  Tuberculosis Beds
  Hearing Aids
  Hearing Aids
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  Blood Donors
  NEW TOWNS (BUILDING LICENCES)
  NEW TOWNS (BUILDING LICENCES)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1948
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1948
  WATER SUPPLY, BULLINGDON
  WATER SUPPLY, BULLINGDON
EDUCATION
  Classes (Size)
  Classes (Size)
  Training Colleges (Students)
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  Welsh Joint Committee (Report)
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BASUTOLAND
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EMPLOYMENT
  Hospital, Newmarket (Foreign Workers)
  Hospital, Newmarket (Foreign Workers)
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NATIONAL FINANCE
  Poultry Equipment, Gambia
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COAL INDUSTRY
  Opencast Site, Winstanley Hall
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  Collieries (Statement of Interests)
  Collieries (Statement of Interests)
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NATIONAL INSURANCE
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Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The EARL OF DROGHEDA on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  MESSAGE FROM THE KING
  4.5 p.m.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have the honour to present a Message from His Majesty the King signed with his own hand. It is as follows:
  "I have received your Address praying that the Summer Time Order, 1949, be made in the form of the Draft laid before Parliament in pursuance of the provisions of Section 2 of the Summer Time Act, 1947. I will comply with your request."

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS PRODUCTION (SPECIAL LOANS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
SOLICITORS, PUBLIC NOTARIES, &c., BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

SPECIAL ROADS BILL
4.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[THE EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Supplementary orders relating to special roads
3,—(1) At any time after a scheme under this Act authorising the provision of a special read has come into operation, provision may
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be made by an order under this Section for any of the following purposes, that is to say:
(c) for authorising that authority—

(i) to stop up, divert, improve, raise, lower or otherwise alter any road which crosses or enters the route of the special road or is or will be otherwise affected by the construction or improvement of the special road;

(ii) to construct any new road for purposes connected with any such alteration as aforesaid or for any other purpose connected with the special road or its construction, and to close after such period as may be specified in the order any new road so constructed for temporary purposes;

(e) for authorising or requiring the special road authority to exercise, either concurrently with or to the exclusion of any local authority, any functions which, apart from the order, would be exercisable by that local authority in relation to the special road or any part thereof;
(5) An order under this section may provide for the payment of contributions—
(b) to the special road authority by any other authority in respect of any liabilities so imposed on the special road authority, being liabilities which would otherwise have fallen to be discharged by the other authority;
and may also provide for the determination of disputes as to the payment of such contributions.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved, in subsection (1) (c) (ii), after "aforesaid" to insert:
"including a road to provide for traffic hitherto using any road appropriated under paragraph (a) of this subsection."
The noble Viscount said: All the Amendments I am moving on behalf of the County Councils' Association are of a drafting or semi-drafting nature. With regard to this first Amendment, it is clearly the intention of the Government to empower the Minister, where ordinary traffic is diverted by reason of the making of a special road, to authorise the construction of a new road; indeed, in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) a number of reasons for constructing the new road are enumerated. The Minister can authorise a special road authority to make a new road for any of those reasons, but there is no specific power to enable him to authorise the making of a new road where a part of an existing road is appropriated in toto. It would certainly seem obvious that that is the intention of the Minister but I am advised that it

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is not specifically mentioned in the Bill, and this Amendment has been put down to clear up that point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 21, after ("aforesaid") insert the said words.—(Viscount Gage.)
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): I hope I can give the noble Viscount an assurance which will convince him that the intention of the Bill in this respect is expressed in its wording. If the noble Viscount will refer to Clause 3, subsection (1) (c) (ii) he will observe the words:
"… or for any other purpose connected with the special road or its construction….
I am advised that those words include a power authorising the building of a new road for the use of local traffic which has been excluded from an existing road after it has become part of the special road—which is the sort of case which, I think, the noble Viscount has in mind. That being so, I hope the noble Viscount will be willing to withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT GAGE: That was the opinion which I also formed, and as I was given to understand that there was some doubt about it—I do not profess to have any legal knowledge—I am grateful to the noble Earl for confirming what I had suspected. I am quite satisfied, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved to add to subsection (1) (e):
"other than functions of that authority as local planning authority within the meaning of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, or the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947."
The noble Viscount said: This Amendment is a little more than drafting. Your Lordships will see that paragraph (e) of subsection (1) of Clause 3 is drawn in rather wide terms. The order made authorises the Minister to enable a special road authority to exercise:
"any functions which … would be exercisable by that local authority in relation to the special road."
That might be taken to include planning powers. I cannot believe that the Government who have so recently repealed the restriction on ribbon development would wish to re-introduce it by a side issue,
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but it is possible that that power could be re-introduced under the clause as it stands. Therefore, I hope that this Amendment will be accepted, because it certainly makes it clear that town planning remains with the local authority. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 36, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Gage.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I agree entirely with the noble Viscount that the words "any functions" are too general and require qualification in the way he has suggested. There is no intention that the planning functions should be transferred from the planning authorities to the special road authorities, and this should certainly be made clear in the Bill. We are anxious that those functions should remain with the authorities who are discharging them at the moment Therefore, I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for his Amendment.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I thank the noble Earl for accepting it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (3) to omit the word "a" (where it occurs a second time) and to insert "another." The noble Earl said: This Amendment and the four subsequent Amendments are an attempt to improve the English of the Bill. We are trying to eliminate the long and ugly word "alternative" and use instead the shorter and simpler words "a" or "another." I beg to move this first drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 5, leave out ("a") and insert ("another").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 5, leave out ("alternative").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This Amendment is again drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 11, leave out ("a") and insert ("another").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, leave out ("alternative").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This, again, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 16, leave out ("an alternative") and insert ("a").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved to add to subsection (4):
"Provided further that, in absence of any such order, the fabric of any bridge over or tunnel under the special road shall be maintained by the special road authority."
The noble Viscount said: The proviso to subsection (4) of this Clause says that
"(except by agreement with that authority) the fabric of any bridge over or tunnel under the special road"
shall not be transferred to any authority—that the responsibility for it shall be retained by the special road authority. In the absence of any specific agreement, it seems necessary to specify where the responsibility rests. The County Councils Association suggest that that should be made clear. It may be that the wording covers this point, but I know from my own experience that some very curious legal positions arise in connection with the maintenance of roads. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 40, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Gage.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am advised that responsibility for the maintenance of a bridge or tunnel built by a special road authority will rest with that authority unless it is transferred by agreement to some other authority, such as a local authority in that neighbourhood. That being so, there is no need to provide in the text of the Bill for the obligation of the special road authority to undertake this sort of work. That is the legal advice I have received. I hope that the noble Viscount will be satisfied that it is correct.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I am perfectly satisfied with that assurance. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved, in subsection (5) after ("determination") to insert ("by arbitration"). The noble Viscount said: Subsection (5) refers to the payment of contributions by the special road authority to a highway authority. It may well be that the Minister will act as the special road authority. It is thought that in such cases the Minister should not be the judge of his own case and I would suggest that provision should be made for arbitration in such cases. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 5, after ("determination") insert ("by arbitration").—(Viscount Gage.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I agree, of course, that the noble Viscount's Amendment makes clear in the text of the Bill that the Minister will not himself be in a position to decide disputes in which he is or may be concerned. The sort of case which I think the noble Viscount has in mind is one in which the highway authority involved in a difference with some other highway authority about a liability for payments—the type of payments mentioned in Clause 3—is the Ministry of Transport. The insertion of the words suggested by the noble Viscount will make it clear that if agreement is not reached between the parties concerned in a matter of this kind the dispute will go to arbitration and will therefore be adjudicated upon by an entirely independent person. I have much pleasure in accepting the noble Viscount's Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
4.21 p.m.
Clause 4:
Restriction on laying of mains, etc., in special roads
4.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the powers conferred on statutory undertakers by or under any enactment to lay down or erect any apparatus on, under or over any land shall not be exercisable in relation to any land comprised in the route of a special road except with the consent of the special road authority:
Provided that the consent of the special road authority shall not be required under this section for the laying down or erection by statutory undertakers of any apparatus by way of renewal of any apparatus for the time being vested in or belonging to them.
(2) The consent of a special road authority under this section may be given subject to

125
conditions, but those conditions shall not include a condition requiring any payment to be made by the undertakers to the special road authority in respect of the exercise of the powers to the exercise of which the consent is given.
(3) Where any apparatus in respect of which the consent of a special road authority is required under this section is to be laid down or erected along a line crossing the route of the special road but not running along that route, that authority—

(a) shall not withhold their consent under this section unless there are special reasons for doing so; and

(b) may, if they give their consent subject to conditions, make contributions to the statutory undertakers in respect of any expenses incurred by them in complying therewith.

(5) Where the consent of a special road authority is required under this section in respect of apparatus to be laid down or erected otherwise than as mentioned in subsection (3) of this section, and the special road authority are a local highway authority, the statutory undertakers may appeal to the Minister against any refusal of that consent or any condition subject to which that consent is granted, and the Minister may make such order as he thinks fit.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (1), after "apparatus" (where the word first occurs) to insert "along the line of the route of the special road." The noble Earl said: The purpose of the first two of my Amendments to this clause is to prohibit the laying of pipes and wires along the line of the route of a special road except by way of renewal, and then only to allow the pipes and wires to be laid elsewhere than on the carriageway. The point is that almost everyone connected with roads knows very well the damage which can be done to the road surface by public undertakers who have the power to carry out excavations. Often one sees a perfectly new road surface put down and the water company or the gas company comes along and proceeds to take it up. The subsequent repairs never seem to harmonise with the rest of the road surface and very often a pot-hole or something of that sort, develops; then water collects and that starts road deterioration. It starts off with one pot-hole and then another develops, and so it goes on. In these days, when road maintenance is a burning question and it is not easy to get either labour or materials to make good damage to roads, the laying of pipes and
126
wires under these special roads should not become a common practice, and we should try to avoid the damage which the laying of such pipes and wires does. A subsequent Amendment of mine makes it clear that where pipes and wires have to be laid across a road, it shall be possible to take them through a conduit rather than to dig up the road surface. I beg to move the first Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 9, after ("apparatus") insert ("along the line of the route of the special road").—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The effect of these Amendments has been quite correctly described by the noble Earl, in that they would forbid statutory undertakers, such as gas companies or electricity undertakers, from laying new mains or running cables along the line of the route of a special road. This, of course, involves not only the carriageway to the road but the grass verges on each side. As the Bill stands, this can be done by agreement with the highway authority, and surely, if the highway authority think that a gas main can be laid, say along the grass verge of the special road, without interfering with the use of the road, it is fairly safe to say that the gas main and its maintenance will not be a handicap to road users. I cannot help feeling that this Amendment is a little unfair to the statutory undertakers. The whole object of the clause is an attempt to achieve a fair compromise between the demands of public services provided by statutory undertakers on the one hand, and the demands of road users for the services of the special road—the motorway for which the highway authority is responsible—on the other. The interests of the special road users are, I think, fully protected by the clause as it stands. At the same time, statutory undertakers are allowed to do the work they should do in the public interest, and they have the safeguard of appeal against the highway authority in the event of disagreement. If these Amendments were accepted the clause would be hard on the statutory undertakers and would upset that balance which we have tried to strike between the different public interests.
LORD LLEWELLIN: One of the things we require most to do is to prevent the

127
statutory undertakers, often one after another—the gas company first, then the drainage authority and then the electricity company—from coming along and taking up the surface of the highway itself. I have no objection to the laying of pipes or whatever they may be along the grass verges, because then it probably means that the statutory undertakers have not to deal with a number of land owners on the site; they have not to take down some of the woods, or whatever it may be, that adjoin the road and may make it beautiful. The best place for these pipes and lines is along the grass verges, so long as undertakers are not allowed to take them under the metal part of the road except in exceptional circumstances. I appreciate that my noble friend's Amendment may be too wide, but could we have an undertaking from the noble Earl opposite that it will be the policy of the Ministry of Transport not to encourage in any way the laying by statutory undertakers of these lines or pipes under the metal part of the road. The Ministry have a considerable say nowadays in the allocation of labour for road works and in the making of grants towards the cost of re-metalling the roads. Therefore they ought to be in a position to give the road authorities for the special roads, whoever they may be, an instruction in this matter; and in cases where the Ministry are themselves making one of these special roads, they should be able to say that undertakers will not be allowed willy-nilly to put their pipes down the road.
If we could have some assurance of that sort I think it would go a long way—especially if we can get something like an acceptance of the Amendment on this particular point which is down later on in the name of my noble friend, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley. The effect of that Amendment is that one of the conditions that can be made is that undertakers shall lay a culvert under the road surface itself, so that the road surface shall not be disturbed. Then all that will be necessary is for someone to pull the pipes out of the culvert and repair them, without damage to the surface of the road at all. That, after all, is the modern way of doing things. We are told that the putting-down of the surface of a road is going to cost a tremendous amount per
128
mile. That is all the more reason why, once it is down, we ought not to allow people, willy-nilly, to interfere with it.
LORD SANDHURST: Before the noble Earl replies, there is one point which I should like to make. I would go further than the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and suggest that there should be a restrictive distance within which no pipe or anything else may be laid along the side of the road. We all know of cases where roads have had to be widened, and, as a result, pipes that previously went along under the grass verge now come at the side of the road. If anything goes wrong the whole road has to be dug up. Similarly, we all know of cases where the Post Office has cables laid, and every time they want to repair the cables they take up the ground; they throw the debris on to the road, making a huge mess and creating an obstruction. So if we are not to allow the Amendment I think a restrictive distance should be imposed to provide that an undertaking must put their works on the extreme outer edge of the land acquired for the purpose of building the road.
EARL HOWE: May I thank the Minister very much for his courtesy? On the Second Reading stage of this Bill he was good enough to send me the proposed layout and design of these new special roads. He sent me particulars, in the course of which it was stated that these roads are to be twin track roads, with a width of 22 feet for each track. The reason I mention this matter is that, in my view, having regard to the width of vehicles to-day, 22 feet is hardly wide enough. The Minister has authorised vehicles of 8 feet width to go on the roads, and a road width of 22 feet allows a very small margin indeed. As traffic increases—and it is possible that in the future the width of vehicles using the road may also increase—the difficulty will be intensified. Clearly, these roads will be used mainly for industrial traffic; they are not intended so much for use by pleasure cars. The reason I mention this is, that if a public undertaking has power to lay pipes not only below the road surface but along the grass verges, there is no doubt that on occasions vehicles will have to stand for considerable periods of time on the road to service these undertakings. By their presence on the road, they will undoubtedly cause considerable obstruction.

129
I do not expect that the noble Earl can accept the Amendment as it stands, and I appreciate his arguments. At the same time, I hope that it will be possible for him to give us some sort of assurance that it will not be the policy of the Ministry of Transport to allow public undertakings to make any large use of these roads in any shape or form. There are occasions, no doubt, when they will have to put works along them. I hope that when they do, for the reasons which have been so ably put forward by my noble friend, they will make use of the grass verges. As I say, I trust that the Minister will be able to give some assurance on the lines asked for by my noble friend Lord Llewellin.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I gladly respond to the request of the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for an assurance that it will not be the policy of the Ministry of Transport to encourage, or indeed to allow, the laying of mains underneath the surface of the carriageway of these new special roads. That has never been the intention of the Ministry, and I am glad to have the opportunity of saying that publicly. I think it would be difficult to meet the wishes of the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, by laying down any general rule about the degree of proximity to a motor road at which these mains can be laid. That, surely, is a matter which can best be left to the highway authorities, to be decided on the merits of each particular case. As the noble Lord is aware, from the text of the Bill, it is open to a highway authority to object and to forbid a statutory undertaker to lay a gas main, or whatever it may be, if the authority thinks that the work will interfere with the use of the road.
EARL HOWE: I cannot say that I am entirely satisfied with the assurances which the noble Earl has just given. They do not seem to me to be sufficiently specific in their character. However, in the circumstances, I do not feel like pressing this Amendment, and I therefore beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to leave out subsections (21 and (3) and to insert:
"(2) (a) The powers conferred on statutory undertakers by or under any enactment to lay down or erect any apparatus on, under or
130
over land shall not be exercisable except for the purpose of crossing the route of the special road and the special road authority may require, as a condition of giving their consent, that the apparatus shall be laid in a culvert or subway provided for that purpose under the special road so that the statutory undertakers may be able to maintain renew alter or add to their apparatus without interfering with the special road.
(b) The special road authority may if they give their consent for the purposes of this section make contributions to the statutory undertakers in respect of any expenses incurred by them in complying therewith."
The noble Earl said: The purpose of this Amendment is to permit the laying of pipes and the like by public undertakers across the line of route of a special road, provided that they are laid in a culvert or a subway. I need not stress the importance of that particular point. Rut another matter arises in this connection. These roads are to be special roads; they are to carry very heavy industrial traffic, and no doubt the foundations of these roads will be very special indeed. If it should by any chance become necessary to interfere with the foundations, I think it would be a matter of great difficulty, from an engineering point of view, to get them back into their original state. Therefore, I think this Amendment is of considerable importance, and I hope that the noble Earl will find it possible to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 18, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert the said new subsection.—(Earl Howe.)
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: The next Amendment standing in my name covers part of the Amendment which has just been moved by the noble Earl. Lord Llewellin has explained already what is in our minds in putting forward these Amendments. It seems to us reasonable to require a statutory undertaking so to arrange its apparatus that in repairing, renewing or adding to its services, the road which it crosses is not disturbed. Clearly, it would be most undesirable, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has explained, if statutory undertakers had to damage the surface of the road. Though it may be rather more expensive to begin with, I think that in the long run it would be an economy if special arrangements were made on the lines laid down in the Amendment.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am obliged to the noble Lord for speaking on the noble Earl's Amendment. I think his subsequent Amendment covers very much the same point. We have every sympathy with the point of view expressed by the noble Lord and the noble Earl. We do not want any of these statutory undertakers to lay mains which, either in the laying or in their subsequent use, will interfere with the surface of the road. That is why, having foreseen this potential difficulty, we have already provided in the Bill that highway authorities should be in a position to guard against it. We had hoped that our proposals would satisfy noble Lords opposite. If noble Lords will look at Clause 4 (2), they will agree, I hope, that it is directed to this specific eventuality. The subsection begins:
"The consent of a special road authority under this section may be given subject to conditions, but those conditions …"
I will not read the rest of the subsection. I would point out that one of the conditions might very well be such a condition as is mentioned by the noble Earl in his Amendment, and by the noble Lord in his subsequent one. I think it is more satisfactory for the highway authority to have this general power to attach conditions than to specify the particular conditions which may be attached. I think it is both satisfactory from his point of view and from the point of view of the Bill. It would be extremely difficult to include in the Bill all the conditions which any or every highway authority might properly think should be attached to their consent to the operations of the statutory undertaking.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I realise the difficulty about putting one condition into a Bill, and not including all possible conditions but I think the noble Earl was a little weak in his statement that this "might very well be one of the conditions."
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: It is the intention that this is the sort of condition which will be attached.
LORD LLEWELLIN: That is better. We are trying to say from this side that this is the common-sense thing to do in every case. Nowadays, great thicknesses of concrete form the foundations of a road, and when anything has to be done,
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along comes a machine that reminds you of a dentist's chair to grind it up. We would like it much more definitely known that it is the policy of the Minister to see that where there are Post Office lines, or a drainage authority's pipes or an electric undertaking's underground cables, these shall go in small tunnels, so that lines can be added to or repaired without taking up the whole road surface. Although it may not be appropriate to put in one condition while not putting in others, I would like it to be said that in every possible case the policy of the Ministry and of the special road authority will be to insist that this be done. Otherwise we shall be doing once again what was done throughout the streets of London. That was done years ago, and it cannot be helped now, but in future we should see that we have a better policy. Culverts should be provided as they are in the German autobahnen. Though I did not admire much in Germany, I have to admit that the construction of the roads was very good.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I certainly give the noble Lord the assurance he desires. It is the policy of the Minister that the apparatus of statutory undertakings should be laid in culverts or some sort of tunnels which will prevent interference with the surface of the roadway.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: If the noble Earl prefers that the words are not included, and on the undertaking he has given, I shall be willing not to move my Amendment.
EARL HOWE: Under the circumstances I am only too glad to withdraw my Amendment, and to thank the noble Earl for his reply.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved, in subsection (5), after "Minister" (where that word occurs a second time) to insert:
"after the special road authority has had an opportunity of considering the grounds of and making representations upon such appeal."
The noble Viscount said: I am advised that in its present form subsection (5) would enable statutory undertakers to appeal against a refusal of consent by a special road authority without acquainting the special road authority of the grounds of their appeal, or even the fact of their appeal; and the Minister

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might decide without reference to the special road authority. If that is so, it seems to me wrong, because the Minister would be acting in a quasi-judicial capacity. It may be, of course, that my advice is wrong, in which case I should be perfectly content with an assurance from the noble Earl.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 7, after ("Minister") insert the said new words.—(Viscount Gage.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I hope I can satisfy the noble Viscount that his advice is wrong. Ministers do not really behave in that way. If a statutory undertaking appeals to the Minister against the refusal of consent by the special road authority, the Minister will obviously have to hear both sides before he makes up his mind and reaches a decision. He cannot make up his mind when he has heard only one party in the case. I have no doubt he will listen to any representations that a special road authority will make during the hearing of an appeal. I do not feel, therefore, that there is any need to specify in the Bill the sort of safeguard which the noble Viscount suggests for the special road authority.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I thank the noble Earl, and apologise for any unworthy suspicions that the County Councils' Association entertained of the Minister of Transport. Perhaps that was due to the very large powers which Ministers are continuing to take over the operations of local authorities! I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Private rights of access]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The five Amendments to Clause 7 are all drafting Amendments, and with your Lordships' permission, and to save time, I shall move all these Amendments en bloc. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 8, leave out ("alternative") and insert ("new").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 14, leave out ("a") and insert ("other").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 15, leave out ("alternative").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 15, leave out ("is") and insert ("are").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 27, leave out ("alternative") and insert ("new").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agree to.
Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to.
4.49 p.m.
Clause 10:
Additional powers of acquiring land for special roads.
10.—(1) The power of a highway authority under section thirteen of the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, to acquire land for the purpose of the construction or improvement of any road shall, in relation to special roads, include power to acquire—

(a) any land which in the opinion of the authority will be required for the improvement of an existing road which is included in the route of a special road but has not been transferred to that authority by an order under section three of this Act;

(b) any land (including land lying more than two hundred and twenty yards from the middle of the special road) which in the opinion of the authority is required for the purposes of an order under the said section three, or for the provision of service stations or other buildings or facilities to be used in connection with the construction of a special road, or the use or maintenance thereof.

LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved, in subsection (1) (a) to omit "in the opinion of the authority." The noble Lord said: I have agreed with my noble friend Lord Cranworth that his Amendment and mine should be debated together, if that is for the convenience of the House. Therefore, since his Amendment is rather more comprehensive than mine, I will formally move my Amendment and leave my noble friend to conduct the first part of the debate. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 11, leave out ("in the opinion of the authority").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
LORD CRANWORTH: My Amendment to omit paragraph (b) will be no

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surprise to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, because I indicated strongly on Second Reading that the totalitarian powers conferred upon the special road authority might give a loophole for a further raping of our already limited and most valuable agricultural land. As your Lordships will see, the special road authority have power at their own discretion to take land for all purposes—because "facilities" is a pretty wide and elastic term. When I read it, I asked myself two questions, both of which I have been asked several times since; and the answer is not clear to me. The first is a very simple question: Who in fact is the road authority? If the answer is that the road authority is the Minister, that would probably be legally correct; but it would not be correct in fact, because no one would suggest that the Minister will go up and down these roads looking for agricultural land, as to the value of which he might have very little knowledge. I suggest that the road authority will in all probability be a highly-placed official in the Ministry of Transport, with great knowledge of engineering and of transport problems. But with regard to agricultural production he might well know nothing—and, possibly, provided that his own stomach was reasonably full, he might care less. It seems to be desirable, therefore, that we should have an answer to that question.
The other question is: For what purpose are these totalitarian powers desired? I have thought carefully over the matter and tried to find the answer by reference to what took place in another place. The only suggestion that appeals to me is that it might be for the purpose of some bridge or tunnel to cross these special roads. Even so, I find it hard to imagine that there can be many—if any—places where such a tunnel or bridge should be more than a quarter of a mile, which, after all, is a generous allowance. But if it is anticipated that there will be cases of that sort, I should have thought that it could be inserted in the Bill, rather than to give a general and complete liberty to the road authority to take what land they wish. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, showed in his Second Reading speech, I am sure, quite sincerely, that the interests of agriculture and food production are well in his mind, and I would
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appeal to him to make his sincerity obvious by accepting this Amendment. I do not particularly care about the form of words, but I do desire it to be made clear in some way that the road authority will not have power to take either a large or small portion of agricultural land which might not be necessary.
EARL HOWE: I have great sympathy with what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth. The Minister gave me details of the construction of the roads a few days ago. The roads are to have twin 22-feet carriage tracks, with a 15-feet verge between the tracks and a 15-feet verge on either side of the road. According to my simple mathematics, working from the centre of the road, that means that 44-feet will be required. But in the Bill the Minister has taken power to take land 220 yards—that is, 660 feet—from the centre of the road.
LORD CRANWORTH: And beyond it.
EARL HOWE: If the Minister could say what this provision is intended to meet, one might understand it. But I cannot understand how it can be connected with the road, unless it is to provide for the approaches to a bridge, or the like. I hope the noble Earl will be able to give us further information on this than has been given hitherto.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: First, I will answer the two questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth. I understand that there is always, as a matter of departmental routine—of course, with the full authority of the Ministers concerned—a consultation between the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Transport before any land is acquired for a new road. The other question asked by the noble Lord was: What authority other than the Ministry of Transport is meant by the word "authority" in this clause? The other authorities concerned would be county councils; they would not be authorities other than county councils. As the noble Lord is aware, the highway authorities concerned in this Bill are either the Ministry of Transport or the county councils. I can assure the noble Lord that we do not want to interfere unnecessarily with the interests of agriculture. I told him that before, and I know he accepts it.

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Another thing which, as a matter of principle, we do not want to do—whatever any noble Lord may think to the contrary—is to take or seek wider powers than are absolutely necessary to achieve the purposes of the Bill. Let me now address myself to paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this clause, which is the paragraph the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, wishes to omit. I am told that the omission of this paragraph would make the Bill unworkable, because it would be impossible for a special road authority to acquire land for ancillary side roads which would be an essential part of the special roads layout. I would direct the noble Lord's attention to the two purposes under paragraph (b) for which land can be acquired in connection with the construction of a special road. The first is for the purpose of an order under Clause 3 of the Bill. In connection with works authorised by an order under this clause, if paragraph (b) were omitted, it would be impossible for the highway authority to put into operation an effective special roads scheme.
I should like now to give two illustrations of why in many cases land will be required at a distance of more than 220 yards from the centre of the special road. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked me if I could illustrate what was in the mind of those responsible for this Bill. I rather wish I had a blackboard, because I feel I could then illustrate much more vividly, and certainly more to my own satisfaction, what I mean. However, I will do my best to give a couple of verbal illustrations. One case is where a motorway runs alongside a slope, and a side road runs up and down the slope. The fall of the ground away from the motorway will mean that, in order to bring the side road over the motorway and back on to the level of the lower slope, the side road will have to be regraded for a long distance to avoid too steep a climb on the approach of the bridge over the motor road. Therefore, the start of the approach to the bridge will be a long distance from the carriageway of the special road. That is one instance.
Another instance is where there are two side roads crossing the route of a motorway within quite a short distance of each other. The obvious way to deal with these two side roads is to stop up one and to put a bridge over the road
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or a tunnel under the road, in order to enable traffic to continue to use this method of getting across the motor road. Now let us suppose that these two side roads are already connected on either side of the motor way. Then the existing stretch of road which connects the two side roads can be used, instead of building new roads to take the traffic from the road which is stopped on to the road which is still in use, by means of a bridge which goes over the special road or by a tunnel which goes under it. But, of course, this connecting piece of road may be quite a considerable distance—up to a quarter of a mile or further—from the special road. In order to improve it and make it capable of taking the larger flow of traffic, it may be essential for the highway authority to acquire a piece of land on the side of the road so that it may be widened and improved.
Those are two illustrations which show why it will be necessary, in certain cases, for highway authorities to acquire land at some distance from the special roads. The second case provided for in paragraph (b) is for the building of various premises in connection with the construction of a special road, inch as a petrol station, café or depôot for vehicles to use for the maintenance of the road. It may be convenient that these premises should be sited on a side road connected with the special road at a junction—not right on the road itself.
I am sure your Lordships will agree that the essential thing, from the point of view of the traffic which is to use the special road, is to see that the side roads are connected up in a way which will lead to the efficient and proper use of the special road. Therefore, that is the first purpose—orders under Clause 3 for the construction of these side roads—for which this power is essential. On the other hand, I feel there is a great deal of strength in the view which has been expressed in the Committee this afternoon and, I think, in another place, that the power of taking land beyond a distance of 220 yards from the centre of the road, without any limit to that distance, is unsatisfactory and vague, and might possibly lead to misuse. If your Lordships desire me to do so, with the help of my advisers I will before the next stage consider the possibility of including an Amendment which would lay down that land beyond a certain distance from

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the centre of the road could not be acquired, even for the purposes of paragraph (b) of this clause.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: We are glad to know that the noble Earl is able to give us some assurance that this clause will be reconsidered. It is quite certain that the noble Earl's intentions towards agriculture are of the highest kind, but we must remember that we are dealing with people who are enthusiasts and have not perhaps the same direct interest in agriculture as has the noble Earl. From what I know of road engineers, they have excellent qualities, but they think more of the road than the land they are to disturb. From the point of view of agriculture, I think it would be a bad thing if this clause remained in its present wide state. It seems to us that the road authority can take any land they require, however remote.
I ask the noble Earl, when he is considering the redrafting of this clause, to consider the Amendment which I have put down to leave out the words "in the opinion of the authority." I notice the noble Viscount the Leader of the House shaking his head. I do not think it is an immoderate Amendment. I was just going to explain to the noble Viscount—who knows more about it than I do—that the taking out of those words means merely that we go back to the Acquisition of Land Act, 1919 (which perhaps he was instrumental in introducing), and that the matter goes to arbitration and is not decided purely on the ipse dixit of the special authority. I should be sorry if the noble Earl, in reconsidering the drafting, were to be stopped by the Leader of the House from considering these Amendments. I hope he will keep an open mind, so that when the matter is considered on the next occasion we may have an assurance that there will not be an extravagant use of land and that those affected shall have the right to put their case to some form of arbitration.
LORD CRANWORTH: May I thank the noble Earl for his reply and the consideration he has given to this Amendment? I would also like to congratulate him on the fact that he has caused me astonishment. I thought I was much too old to be astonished, but he
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did astonish me when he told me that some county councils might be called upon to provide these roads, because they would be the road authority. I thought the main roads were being taken away from county councils. They certainly have been in my county, and it is an astonishment to me to know that possibly we may be called upon to provide a special road. I look upon that with a certain amount of alarm.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I think it would be wise to look at this matter again, and perhaps we may have consultations together between now and the Report stage. The noble Earl says that there is always consultation between the officials of the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry of Agriculture on these matters, but the clause gives these powers to the highway authority; therefore it need not necessarily be done at all through the Ministry of Transport. Let us realise that point to start with. We are giving the highway authority extremely wide powers at a time when everybody is saying that we should increase our food production and encourage agriculture. Therefore, we must make the powers as narrow as we can while leaving them effective for their purpose. The clause refers to "any land." The reference to 220 yards from the middle of the road is rather a rod herring and is only inserted in order to show that, despite the Ribbon Development Act, the authority can put up a service station or a café within the area of land which otherwise would be covered by that Act. In the case of the land dealt with under paragraph (a) the area need not be of so wide an extent as is provided by the Bill, because that is only land needed for the road itself. In the case of land dealt with under the first part of paragraph (b), however, there may be more to be said for a wider area, for the reasons the noble Earl gave—the diversion of subsidiary roads. It may be necessary to divert those roads because of the provision of the new special roads.
There is yet a third point to bear in mind when we are considering this clause, and it is that here we are giving power to the special road authority to acquire land compulsorily for service stations and for other buildings or facilities along these roads. The normal procedure was that such service stations and

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so forth were acquired as by a willing buyer from a willing seller—provided the necessary town planning permission was obtained. That was the old way of doing things. It is getting rather into the controversial field (I am not saying the political controversial field) if someone selects for compulsory purchase for a service station, or whatever it may be, a piece of A's farm rather than a piece of B's farm, just because someone thinks A's land provides a better site than B's land. When you are proceeding in this way and not relying upon the old method of voluntary arrangement you are getting rather into a new sphere. I hope the noble Earl will consider these points when we come to see how far this clause can be improved so as not to discourage agriculture and yet to give wide enough powers to these people to make the proper road and connecting roads.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Of course I will bear in mind very carefully and fully what the noble Lord has just said. But I cannot say that I can hold out great encouragement—indeed I should be misleading the noble Lord if I said I could—about the omission of the words: "in the opinion of the authority." The point surely is that somebody has, to decide what amount of land is required for widening a road or improving it in some other way. The body to decide this in the first instance is the highway authority; and that is the authority whose opinion is mentioned in this clause. I cannot see how you can do without that spark to ignite the train. The noble Lord is, nevertheless, completely protected, I think, by the normal procedure for the compulsory acquisition of land. As he knows, notice is given to all concerned; objections are lodged if any owner wishes to do so; there is then a public inquiry, and ultimately the scheme has to be confirmed by the Minister. I believe there are cases in which a scheme may come before Parliament. Those safeguards would, I think, meet the noble Lord's point without removing something which is essential to the satisfactory working of these special road schemes. I am grateful to the noble Lords who have taken part in the discussion of their suggestions, and I will see that those suggestions are adequately considered before the next stage of the Bill.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: In view of what the noble Earl has said, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved to add to the clause as a new subsection:
"( ) Where land is acquired for the purpose of a special road and compensation would be payable in respect of any severance or injurious affection, the special road authority shall provide accommodation works for the avoidance of the said severance or injurious affection unless it is unreasonable so to do."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to place the onus on the special road authority to provide accommodation works, unless it is unreasonable so to do. It may be cheaper in the short run to pay compensation for severance; but in the long run, when you are dealing with land, particularly agricultural land, the loss which may arise from severance, and the disturbance caused by severance, may be so serious to the owner or occupier that it will be more economical to provide accommodation by giving access in some way—and the road authority will naturally give due attention to economy. Therefore, I should be grateful if the noble Earl would look at this Amendment and, if possible, accept it—or suggest something like it which would give effect to these ideas. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 35, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord De Lisle and Dudley.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: There are I think two difficulties about this Amendment. I emphasised them when the question of providing accommodation works rather than monetary compensation was raised during the Second Reading. In the first place, this is a matter that arises in all cases of severance caused by the building of roads. It applies generally. It would, I think, be quite 'wrong to deal with a special case, the case of motorways and special roads, as distinct from all the other roads in the county which are affected by this procedure. The code of compensation is one that has given general satisfaction, and I feel that the onus is on the noble Lord opposite to show that there has been among those affected any general complaint about the present procedure. Unless agreement is secured, the claims of those

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affected by severance, or who suffer injurious affection, are referred to independent arbitration. In assessing the claim the arbitrator takes into account the fact that the highway authority may not agree to provide accommodation works.
Of course, the amount awarded may be in excess of the cost of the accommodation works, if the arbitrator thinks that that is right and proper, but I understand the usual practice is for the highway authority to provide the accommodation works. It is obvious that they are in a better position to do so than the tenant or the landlord, as they have the men and the equipment with which to build the "creep" or whatever it may be. I am told that it is very rare for negotiations with owners to break down on the question of the form which compensation is to take; as a general rule they are perfectly satisfied and there is no need to go to arbitration, because they feel that the proposal made by the highway authority is reasonable. I think that these two points make it extremely difficult to alter the principle of compensation which is at present applied generally in cases of severance. I hope that the noble Lord on consideration will share that view.
LORD LLEWELLIN: In my view, there is a considerable distinction between these roads and the ordinary highways because, as I understand it, the whole purpose of these new roads is to keep an even flow of important motor traffic without its being impeded unnecessarily by other roads crossing, by lights or by anything else of that sort. Therefore, it is a different kind of road from the ordinary road on to which the farmer can always drive his cattle to get them across from one side of his farm to the other. I gather that in the case of these roads there will not be any accommodation gates, and the whole idea will be not to have cattle driven across them. That is how I visualise the general conception of the scheme. These special roads are becoming more like the railways; for farmers are never allowed, and never have been allowed, to drive their cattle across the railway, except at the proper gates. When the railways were planned, accommodation arches or crossings were always built, so that a person could take his agricultural carts and his cattle and sheep across the railway without having
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to drive them miles around. Surely, these special roads are rather different from the old type. That is the point I would make, because there will be many more of these special roads where it will be almost essential, if we are not to divide a farm completely in two, to give these special facilities, rather than merely pay compensation, which indeed will not meet the case.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I will gladly consider carefully what both the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and the noble Lord, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley, have said on this point. If anything can be done, I will make a further proposal on the next stage of the Bill.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving us that very qualified assurance. On the understanding that the matter will be looked at, and possibly discussed through the usual channels, I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 agreed to.
5.25 p.m.
Clause 12:
Provisions as to use of special roads
(2) The Minister may make regulations with respect to the use of special roads, and such regulations may, in particular—
(b) authorise the crossing of such roads by traffic, other than such traffic as aforesaid, subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by the regulations;
(c) authorise, or enable such authority as may be specified in the regulations to authorise, the use of such roads, on occasion or in emergency or for the purpose of securing access to premises abutting on or adjacent to the roads, by traffic other than such traffic as aforesaid, or relax or enable any such authority as aforesaid to relax any prohibition or restriction imposed by the regulations;
and such regulations may make provision with respect to special roads generally, or may make different provision with respect to special roads provided for the use of different classes of traffic, or may make provision with respect to any particular special road.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY moved, in subsection (1) after "behalf" to insert "by a scheme." The noble Lord said: This is really a drafting

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Amendment. It seems to be clearer if the words "by a scheme" are inserted after the word "behalf" at page 12, line 26. We see on page 2, Clause 2, that
"Different classes of traffic may be prescribed by a scheme under section one of this Act. …"
It seems to make it clearer if the words that I propose to insert are included in Clause 12. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 26, after ("behalf") insert ("by a scheme").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I think that his words do make the sentence clearer.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DE LISLE AND DUDLEY: I beg to move this Amendment, which is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 32, after ("behalf") insert ("by a scheme").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to omit paragraph (b) of subsection (2). The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential upon the Amendment I propose to move to line 39 of this clause. I think I had better explain what the subsequent Amendment sets out to do. That Amendment will authorise the crossing of special roads by unauthorised traffic. If that Amendment is accepted, then paragraph (b) of subsection (2) will be unnecessary. I hope your Lordships will consider the merit of such an Amendment in order that I may move this Amendment in its proper place. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 34, leave out paragraph (b).—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD SANDHURST: I want to be certain that the noble Earl is not doing rather more than he intends. So far as I can see, the effect of this Amendment and the subsequent one will be to enable permission be given for traffic of the type which is authorised to use the road up and down in one direction to go across it. That strikes me as being undesirable. I think it should be limited to special traffic for special occasions. I am not sure that this Amendment does not go a little
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further than the noble Earl and his advisers intend. Could the noble Earl look at it again with that in view?
EARL HOWE: I have down two Amendments which follow this Amendment. They are intended as a substitute for the action which the noble Earl proposes to take. I do not wart to put myself hopelessly out of order by trying to discuss them at this particular moment. The whole question of crossing these special roads is one fraught with the greatest possible difficulty, because, if there are to be crossings, as has already been said by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, the roads will become rather like railways. To have an unregulated crossing of one of these special roads is really to produce on occasion conditions of extreme danger. It will be necessary to have some sort of signalling device, and it is likely, or at least possible, that such a device may fail or go wrong. I do not think that mere notices or notice boards alongside the roads, or marks across them, will be nearly safe enough. We are in a bit of a tangle over this matter, because the operative Amendment, apparently, is the one following on my two Amendments. I do not know whether the Committee would think it convenient that I should deal with my two Amendments now.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Yes.
EARL HOWE: Then I will go ahead with my two Amendments. The purpose of my two Amendments, as I say, is that they should be considered together as substitutes for the Government's Amendments which propose to leave out paragraph (b) and amend paragraph (c). The effect of the substitutes is to retain paragraph (b) and confine the crossing of the motorways to an emergency; also to reject paragraph (c) and confine the crossing to green tracks needed for access to premises. It is suggested that this would be preferable to the action proposed to be taken by the Minister. I recognise that emergency crossings might be necessary, when special precautions would have to be taken to slow down or otherwise control vehicles but it would be far too dangerous to allow crossings on other occasions. Therefore, I submit that before the decision is taken on the Minister's Amendment he should tell us a little more as to his attitude with regard to the ques-

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tion of crossings as a whole. I think this is most important, and I hope he will be able to give us some specific assurance about it.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I take it the noble Earl was speaking to the first of his two Amendments?
EARL HOWE: I was speaking to both.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I have no objection, but I do not think he developed his argument fully. However, that is his responsibility and not mine. May I make a reply in regard to the noble Earl's Amendment? What I think he wants to do is to limit the power of authorising unauthorised traffic—in the form of pedestrians, farm carts or whatever it may be which will not be authorised to use the special roads; it will not be the fast moving type of traffic which the special road will, as a rule, take—to cross from one side to the other of the motorways solely to emergency occasions. Those are the particular conditions he wishes to attach to the crossing of the roads by unauthorised traffic. In the first place, we do not like the limitation to motorways of the right to cross. There are other classes of special roads. For instance, a footpath can also be a special road, if the motorway had a footpath, and for this purpose we include certain classes (Classes I, IV and IX) as authorised traffic for the special roads. Class IX is pedestrian traffic. They would use the footpath and motor vehicles would use the motorway. The term "special road" is much wider than "motorway," and I do not think the noble Earl was aware of that fact when he drafted his Amendment.
The second and really important thing to which I think his mind was directed is that the crossing of a motorway by pedestrians should be limited to an emergency. He wants it done only in the case of a real emergency. But if this power to allow pedestrians—unauthorised traffic—to cross these motorways were to be used, there would be the need to provide a regular crossing place for pedestrians under special safety provisions prescribed by a regulation. It would be very rarely required; but it would not be used only in emergency because it would be a regular crossing place.
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The sort of thing that the Department has in mind is a long stretch of straight road with rather little traffic. Provided that there are proper safety devices, there is no reason why an occasional pedestrian (say in the heart of the country, where there is much less traffic than in the neighbourhood of a town) should not be able to cross this flat straight road at a given point. That is the sort of case for which this authorisation is required. It will be required only rarely; that is recognised. Safety precautions would have to be laid down in each particular case, and each particular case will require a regulation which will have to be laid before both Houses of Parliament.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Earl whether it is proposed that these emergency pedestrian crossings shall be completely unregulated, and that the pedestrians will be able to go across without giving a signal or anything of that sort to approaching traffic on the road? The noble Earl said that it is going to be done in places where traffic will be very thin. These special roads, if and when they come into being, are likely to become the main arteries of traffic of the country. At present on A.5—and everybody knows Watling Street—there are as many as 5,000 vehicles a day. There will be a very heavy concentration of traffic on these special roads, and if the unregulated pedestrian, even in very rare cases, launches himself out on to a sea of traffic of that sort, one can envisage the danger of the position. I do not know how the noble Earl proposes to regulate it. Can he say whether his Department proposes to install some form of signals or lights or other devices?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Yes, there would be safety provisions which would be specified in the regulations, so that if anyone in your Lordships' House or in another place considered that they were unsatisfactory and that the crossing was dangerous—that the pedestrian was not sufficiently protected by the safety provisions—then objection could be lodged. But it is not an emergency provision; it is one that, if Parliament approves, will be a regular day-to-day practice. The emergency provision is one that is only brought in as a result of some event like the blocking or flooding of a road for a short time. But this, if it were done,

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would be a continuous thing, and it would be done in rare cases where there might be a hardship to pedestrians which could otherwise easily be avoided. It would certainly never be done in the certain cases which the noble Earl had in mind—that of a motorway with a constant flow of fast-moving traffic which would obviously be a danger to the pedestrian or an inconvenience to the traffic if it had to be held up.
LORD ELTON: This matter seems to be very obscure. Are not all these motorways specially designed to carry a heavy and regular stream of traffic? If, as the noble Earl says, we are talking about something which is to be a regular provision and not an emergency provision, it becomes all the more important, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe said, that your Lordships should have some idea of the sort of safety provision that is to be made for the pedestrian. I am not at all clear on this point. I wonder whether the noble Earl can tell us anything more about it? I understood Lord Howe to put a very direct question on that point, and I cannot quite gather that he has had a reply.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I, too, was slightly mystified by the noble Earl's remark that it would be on a special road which was not heavily used by traffic, or words to that effect. I must confess that I see these special roads as being built because there is a need for the passage of a great deal of traffic, and I should have thought that, although obviously in the neighbourhood of big towns there would be more traffic, the object was not to provide local facilities but to provide through roads on which there was a great deal of traffic passing, at any rate in the hours of daylight. Perhaps the noble Earl could throw a little more light on his remark, because I should hate to think that special roads were going to be built to cope with conditions other than those I have mentioned.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The general rule will be that these roads will be used much too intensively and that there will be much too large a flow of traffic, travelling far too fast, for pedestrians to be able to cross the surface of the road itself. The general rule would be that where pedestrians have
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to cross they will go either over or under the road. But this provision is made primarily for exceptional cases, and it seems a pity to make it impossible to provide for exceptional cases should they arise. That is all that is desired here. The safety provision to which the noble Lord, Lora Elton, has spoken would be specified in the regulation, which of course would be subject to Parliamentary approval. I can obtain more information about the sort of provision which highway authorities have in mind for inclusion in a regulation that they might make for this purpose, and that information I will obtain before the next stage of the Bill.
EARL HOWE: Will the noble Earl, at the next stage of the Bill please give us some sort of idea of what system of regulation there will be governing the use of the crossing? Are you going to have a system of signalling? If so, what system of signalling? I do not ask for that information now—no doubt it would be very inconvenient to get it now—but perhaps it can be obtained later. If we could be told at the next stage, it would relieve anxiety. I feel that the safety of a number of people may be involved. This provision may be very dangerous. As I say, I shall be guile satisfied if the noble Earl can tell us about this when the next stage is reached
LORD ELTON: I entirely agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and I hope very much that we may have a good deal of further information. I must confess that I am still (perhaps it is my own fault) almost completely in the dark as to what are all these exceptional stretches of road and as to whether the safety provisions, of which we are to be further apprised at a later stage, are to be at all of a permanent character—signals or the like. It seems to me strange that they should be provided in relation to a stretch of road the traffic on which may vary greatly from year to year, or even from month to month. You may take a stretch of road which carries exceptionally light traffic at one moment and make some rather sketchy provision for pedestrian crossings. Six months later you may find that the traffic has thickened considerably; your provision for the safety of pedestrians may be entirely unsuitable for the thicker traffic, and you may be holding up the long

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distance traffic for which the road was designed. I think we are still very much in the dark on these points, and I hope that we shall certainly get further enlightenment at a later stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This Amendment is consequential to the earlier Amendment to omit paragraph (b), at page 12, line 34. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 39, after ("of") insert ("crossing, or for the purpose of").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This is merely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 44, leave out ("and such regulations") and insert ("(3) Regulations made under this section").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SELSDON LORD SELSDON moved to add to subsection (2):
"Provided that any regulation with respect to the crossing of any such road shall restrict the use of such road for the purpose of crossing to such hours of the day as may be appointed by the special road authority and shall require such authority to exhibit signs in prescribed positions on such road warning the drivers of vehicles proceeding along such road towards such crossing to reduce their speed to a specified number of miles per hour during the appointed hours."
The noble Lord said: We have already had a certain amount of discussion on the subject of crossings on these motorways. I think we have rather got away from the question of exactly what the motorways are designed for. Are they to be, so to speak, anyone's "pigeon," to cross where they wish and to go where they like; or are they not? I understand that in certain cases, where the motorways run through farm lands, it may well happen that farm buildings will be on one side of the road and the cattle may be grazing on the other. In such a case it would be necessary for the cattle to cross the road to be milked. Clearly, it would not be practicable to build a bridge or a subway in an isolated part of the country.
I submit that in this connection a very good system is in use in America. I
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will tell your Lordships how it works in relation to schools. A quarter of an hour before the children go into or out of school, a sign is put up covering a clearly defined area 200 yards on either side of the school, and in accordance with the notice on that sign all traffic has to slow down to 10 miles an hour during that period. The onus is then on the driver. That surely could be done in exceptional cases in this country, in clearly defined places where cattle could cross only at a particular spot. The times at which it is necessary for the cattle to cross will be known, and the necessary arrangement could easily be made. The period of reduced speed would probably not amount to more than an hour a day on that particular road. It would. I suggest, save money. I cannot see why anyone should reasonably expect to be allowed to wander about the place when there are clearly defined crossing places. The main question is to whom is this road going to belong? Is it going to be the special province of the motor car, or will it be permissible for any Tom, Dick or Harry to wander all over the place at will? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 47, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Selsdon.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I was much interested to hear the noble Lord quote the example of the system which is used in the United States which, of course, is one of the countries which have these motor roads. I think that the fact that they can allow pedestrians on occasions to cross them shows that it can be done, and indeed that provision should be made for doing it. So far as the noble Lord's Amendment goes, of course we are in complete sympathy with him about the need for safeguards for the pedestrian. If such crossings are allowed, the safeguards which he has mentioned—such as allowing the roads to be crossed only at certain hours of the day or night, and erecting warning signs for motor drivers—are the sort of safeguards which would be included in a regulation made for this purpose; a specific regulation will be made for each particular case. But I think it would be dangerous to insert provisions in the Bill which would render the authorities unable to take into account the circumstances of each particular case that will arise. In some cases

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measures such as the noble Lord has suggested may be suitable, but in other cases they may not. We feel it is much better to leave this matter to be dealt with in the regulations when they are framed—those regulations, of course, will be subject to the approval of Parliament—and not to have in the Bill any more general provisions which might cut across provisions which it may be desirable to insert in the regulations.
EARL HOWE: The noble Lord has said that regulations will be made in each specific case. Does that mean that there will be different regulations? Shall we, for instance, have crossing A at a certain point, wherever it is, with one set of regulations, and crossing B, very similar in character, at another point, with quite different regulations? It seems to me that if that is to be the case it will be extraordinarily difficult for everyone properly to understand this matter. Perhaps the noble Earl may tell us that there are going to be standard regulations. If we are to have these pedestrian crossings, does he mean that the regulations will vary according to the different crossings, or will they keep to some standard?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I tried to make it clear that there should be no standard regulations. What may be necessary for safety in one part of the country—that is in England or Wales—may not provide sufficiently for safety in another part, or in Scotland. We have to take into consideration all the particular circumstances of the particular grossing of the particular road in the particular place.
LORD SELSDON: Could the noble Earl tell me this? If a pedestrian makes an unauthorised crossing of one of these motorways, and is involved in a collision with a vehicle, would the driver (or his insurance company) be responsible for the accident? I am speaking of a case in which the pedestrian is not authorised to cross but is merely jay-walking.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Then of course he would be at fault. I think that is quite clear.
LORD SELSDON: In view of what the noble Earl has said, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This next Amendment is consequential on a later Amendment which I propose to move to the Interpretation Clause, Clause 21, in order to define the word "use" in relation to a road as including "crossing." If your Lordships accept this expansion of the word "use," then the words "or crosses" in this clause are plainly unnecessary. I do not think this is a controversial matter, and I think I can confidently recommend your Lordships to accept this consequential Amendment now. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 1, leave out ("or crosses").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.
Clause 15:
Adaptation of certain trunk road orders
15.—(1) The provisions of this Act (except subsections (1) and (2) of Section nine) shall apply in relation to the roads described in the Third Schedule to this Act (being roads which are trunk roads by virtue of orders made under Section one of the Trunk Roads Act, 1946) as if they were special roads to be provided by the Minister in pursuance of schemes made under Section one of this Act for the use of traffic of the classes specified in the third column of that Schedule.
LORD ELTON LORD ELTON moved to omit subsection (1). The noble Lord said: When the Bill passed through another place, it was pointed out that under this subsection the Minister would apparently have power to convert certain roads—namely, trunk roads—to special roads, without any inquiry, for which an elaborate procedure is laid down in the First Schedule of the Bill. It is true that the Minister in another place pointed out that when inquiries were held under another Act and at an earlier date, a warning was given that these trunk roads might at some future date fall under the provisions of such a Bill as your Lordships are now discussing, if it were presented to Parliament and passed. But that hypothetical warning, given at an earlier date, and under another Act, and in a very different context, hardly seems sufficient. As this Bill is at present worded, it appears that a trunk road can be converted into a special road automatically, without any inquiry and without local interests being able to put forward their objections to the very various inconveniences

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in which they may find themselves suddenly involved. The Minister in another place said he would make a statement on Report stage, clearing up this point. So far as I can make out—and I speak subject to the correction of the noble Earl, who will be able to put me right—that statement has not been made. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell us a little more about it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 33, leave out subsection (1).—(Lord Elton.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think the noble Lord is under a misapprehension about the procedure which has been already followed in the case of these trunk roads. I shall be glad to explain it. The effect of his Amendment would be to render it necessary to make a scheme under the Bill or an order specified in the Third Schedule, which gives the route of four trunk roads which have already been approved by order under the Trunk Roads Act of 1946. There have been already public inquiries in three out of four orders; in the case of the fourth there was no public inquiry because no objection had been lodged. In the three other cases it was made clear in the course of the inquiries that those roads were being considered for construction as motorways, with all the restrictions which such construction would entail, and no objections were raised by any of the bodies or private persons present. It therefore seems unnecessary to hold any further public inquiries into these proposals for building those roads as motorways instead of building them as trunk roads, which was the original intention.
The effect of making provision for them in the form of schemes under the Bill would be to delay their construction for possibly as much as two years and it would also involve a great deal of expense and time on the part of the Government officials and local authorities. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that, as these roads have already been subjected to exactly the procedure that will be used in the case of other roads authorised under schemes provided for in the Bill, it cannot be said that those whose property is in any way affected by the roads have not already had an ample opportunity of airing their views on the subject.
LORD ELTON: I would be the last person to wish to delay the construction of one of these roads if one is ever taken in hand. I must confess I still feel it is rather unlikely that persons, who were told in 1946 that at sonic future date there might be a Bill turning the trunk road they were discussing into a special road, and that they had better put in any caveats in which they might be interested, were as well placed for voicing their objections as they would be if they had an opportunity of putting them forward in relation to this Bill. But in view of what the noble Earl has said, I do not wish to press my Amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 18 agreed to.
Clause 19 [Financial provisions]:
On Question, Whether Clause 19 shall stand part of the Bill?
EARL HOWE: I should like to raise a point on Clause 19, which deals with finance. I should like to know whether in the case of these special roads the Government will consider using the loan procedure in order to facilitate their financing. If these roads have all to be built out of revenue, a moment may arise when it suits the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go ahead, and then, when money is short, work may be stopped all of a sudden. Would it not be much simpler to deal with the matter in exactly the same way as county councils deal with their roads? When they have to build, they finance them out of loans—of course, after approval by the Treasury. It seems to me that if powers could be taken in the Bill to use the loan procedure, it might be a great heir, to the Government as well as to the road authorities. I would ask the noble Earl whether that question has actually been considered.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister to what the noble Earl has said. I am afraid I cannot answer without notice whether the matter has already been considered by the Department.
EARL HOWE: Perhaps the noble Earl can let me know on the next stage of the Bill.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Certainly.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clause 20 agreed to.
5.58 p.m.
Clause 21 [Interpretation]:
LORD ELTONhad given Notice of an Amendment to add to the clause:
"'reasonably convenient alternative route' means, in relation to Class VII specified in the Second Schedule to this Act, a route within one hundred yards of the route for which it is available or provided as an alternative;"
The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to add one more to the list of interpretations in Clause 21. I am seeking to define a little further "reasonably convenient alternative route" by saying that it should mean "in relation to Class VII specified in the Second Schedule to this Act"—that is, in relation to pedestrians—"a route within 100 yards of the route for which it is available as an alternative."
The phrase "reasonably convenient alternative route" is somewhat of a key phrase in the Bill. On page 4, line 3, the Bill provides that
"No Order authorising the stopping up of a highway shall be made or confirmed by the Minister under this section unless the Minister is satisfied that a reasonably convenient alternative route is available …"
Naturally, the Minister likes to give himself a reasonably wide margin of error, and a rather vague phrase, such as "reasonably convenient alternative," provides that wide margin. For fast-moving traffic a wide margin of error is reasonable. A satisfactory alternative route for a car may be something like two miles distant from the point where the diversion is to be made, and it may be that even four miles would not be unreasonable. For a bicyclist, perhaps half a mile, or one might say a mile, would not be inconvenient. But when it comes to the human being, unprovided with any mechanical assistance, the question of the distance of this alternative becomes very important.
I am not thinking of hikers. Hikers, I understand, go out for air and exercise, and probably it does not matter much whether they get their air and exercise walking a little further to reach one of these alternative routes. We have to remember that these roads will be "slashed" across the countryside, pos-
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sibly separating groups of houses, or even whole villages, which have shared their amenities perhaps for centuries—it may be even since the Domesday Book. The pedestrians concerned will include cripples, very old persons and very young persons, and for such people it is important that the alternative route should be close at hand. Otherwise we may be obliterating the whole social pattern of their lives. Ministers are in the habit of setting themselves targets expressed in terms of figures—sometimes they even reach the targets! Is it too much to ask that here in relation to Class VII—that is, to pedestrians—
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I think the noble Lord means Class IX.
LORD ELTON: I staid subject to correction; I beg your Lordships' pardon. In relation to Class IX…that is, to pedestrians—would the noble Earl not be willing to insert some such figure as 100 yards? Of course, the figure of 100 yards has nothing sacred about it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved…
Page 19, line 37, at end insert ("'reasonably convenient alternative route' means, in relation to Class IX specified in the Second Schedule to this Act, a route within one hundred yards of the route for which it is available or provided as an alternative;").—(Lord Elton.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: If the noble Lord Chairman of Committees had not been so sharp, I was going to say how far astray the noble Lord was in his Amendment. I appreciate that this applies to Class IX—that is, to pedestrians. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Elton, will agree that it would be unwise to tie down the highway authority to construct an alternative route for these pedestrians within such a limited and precise distance as one hundred yards from the original path or crossing, which is what he proposes in his Amendment. That may be convenient in a large number of cases, but in other cases it may be essential and, indeed, inevitable, to make the alternative route a little further away—possibly 200 yards. I can assure the noble Lord—and I hope this will meet his point—that the intention is that the alternative crossing will be made as near as possible to the existing footpath or crossing which can no longer be

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used owing to the construction of the motorway. That, I believe, is the interpretation which common sense would put on the words "reasonably convenient" as applied in the text of the Bill to an alternative route.
LORD ELTON: I should have preferred some figure to be inserted, even if it were 200 or 300 yards. However, in view of what the noble Earl has been good enough to say as to the Minister's intention of always making the alternative route as near as possible, I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This is the Amendment of substance which I mentioned when I asked your Lordships to approve the consequential Amendment just prior to the noble Lord, Lord Elton's Amendments. This makes it clear that the meaning in the definition of "the use of the road" includes the crossing of it. This is important, because it removes doubt about the significance of the word "use" in Clause 12 (2) (a), which now can be read without any suggestion of obscurity, in the sense that any class of traffic authorised to use a special road is also authorised to cross it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 4, at end insert ("'use' in relation to a road, includes crossing;").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 22 [Special provisions as to London]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 40, leave out ("sewerage") and insert ("sewage").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: Before we pass this Amendment, I would like to ask whether this is better English, or whether it is just to save two letters.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think it is to comply with the dictionary.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 22 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD BROADBRIDGE: Before we leave this clause I wish briefly to make reference to the road bridges that cross the Thames in the administrative County of London. Four of those bridges were built under, and maintained by the Corporation of London, and they were so built and maintained at an enormous cost. Not a single penny for the construction or maintenance has fallen upon the ratepayers; it has all come from the Corporation's funds, through their appropriate Committee, the Bridge House Estates. These four bridges are the Tower Bridge, London Bridge, South-wark Bridge and Blackfriars Bridge. Your Lordships can no doubt gauge the enormous cost, and I do not intend to detain you by quoting any figures. Your Lordships will remember that Clause 8 of the Bill enables privately owned bridges on the route of a special road to be transferred by an order under Clause 3 to the special road authority. The four City bridges, being thus technically private bridges, might be so transferred, while the other bridges, being owned and maintained by the London County Council as the local authority, are protected from transfer. I am sure your Lordships will appreciate that the Corporation of London are anxious lest the City bridges might be transferred to some other special authority—for example, to the London County Council. I would be grateful, having regard to the unique position of the City bridges, if the noble Earl could give sonic assurance that no order will be made or confirmed having the effect of transferring them to any other authority.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am obliged to the noble Lord opposite for raising this matter this afternoon, because it enables me, on behalf of my right honourable friend the Minister, to give in public an undertaking which I know he wishes to be given. I can assure the noble Lord that there is no intention whatever that any of the four bridges in the centre of London—of which, as he has said, the City Corporation act as trustees—will form part of a special road. There is no intention that an order will be made under this Bill, when it becomes a Statute, to transfer them from the Corporation to any other authority. That, I believe, is the undertaking which the

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noble Lord would wish to have, and I am delighted to be in a position to give it.
LORD BROADBRIDGE: I thank the noble Earl for his assurance. I am sure it will be of great satisfaction to the City.
Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 23 agreed to.
6.11 p.m.
First Schedule:
Provisions as to schemes and orders
1. Where the Minister proposes to make a scheme under Section one of this Act, or where a scheme under that section is submitted to the Minister by a local highway authority, the Minister or that authority, as the case may he, shall publish in at least one newspaper circulating in the area in which the road to which the scheme relates is situated, and in the London Gazette or the Edinburgh Gazette, or in both those Gazettes, according as the scheme affects England or Scotland or both, a notice—

(a) stating the general effect of the proposed scheme;

(b) specifying a place in the said area where copies of a draft of the scheme, or of the scheme as submitted to the Minister, as the case may be, and of any relevant map or plan may be inspected by any person free of charge at all reasonable hours during a period of three months from the date of the publication of the notice: and

LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEYhad given Notice of two Amendments, the second of which was to insert a new paragraph 2. The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the one which follows are inter-related, and for the convenience of the Committee I propose to discuss them together. The purpose of the Amendments is to instruct the special authority to give reasonably complete plans, so that those affected may see exactly what is in the plan and upon what grounds they may object. The wording of the paragraph 2 which I shall move to be inserted, more or less corresponds with the requirements of the promoters of a Private Bill affecting other interests in land. My intention is perfectly clear from the wording of the Amendment. It seems to me that the parties affected should have more knowledge than a notice stating the general effect of the proposed scheme. They should have as much detail as possible, including plans and elevations. I hope the noble Earl will be able to respond by accepting my Amendment as being not only proper but just to those interests which are likely to be affected. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 17, leave out ("any") and insert ("the").—(Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think the effect of the noble Lord's Amendments would be to telescope at least two of the successive stages of the plan—the scheme stage and the order stage—in order that the scheme stage may contain particulars the provision of which, under the Bill, are envisaged in the order stage. I am advised that a detailed road plan of this kind would take a long time to prepare—perhaps as much as two or three years. The effect of that would be to make it impossible for planning authorities to include the route of these future motorways in their plans, and would to a large extent render town planning impracticable For instance, the development plans for the new towns could not be effectively drawn up without inclusion in them of the motorways which will connect those towns with other large centres of population. I appreciate the noble Lord's desire to protect the interests of those affected by the construction of these roads, but I think they are protected under the provisions of the Bill. They have exactly the same protection as any private interests have at the moment in relation to the building of roads by highway authorities. I hope the noble Lord will appreciate the important advantages of the procedure suggested in the Bill, and the serious disadvantage of the procedure which he has suggested in his Amendments.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I wish this matter could be studied a little further, because I cannot quite understand how plans of this vague nature can be of assistance to town planning authorities. I know from my experience that we have found it impossible to put county roads on the planning map until they have reached a stage which I think is technically known as "the middle of the road" stage. What I have experienced is that road proposals move about in the most extra-ordinary way. They may move miles from one side to the other of the first suggested line. It may be that my noble friend's suggestion is impracticable in the way he has put it down; nevertheless I think the alternative proposed by the noble Earl would be equally impracticable because of its vagueness. I do

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not know what my noble friend's intention is about this matter, but I feel it might be examined a little further.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I naturally do not want to be obstructive, but I am not assured by what the noble Earl has told me. In my present stage of enlightenment I cannot see how any people can say whether they object or not to a scheme unless they have some reasonable detail as to what the scheme is going to be. A general plan might be just a line on a map, and people who may ultimately be affected may not know from that plan that they will be so affected and may omit to lodge objections which they would otherwise have lodged. I can see the noble Earl's point about the difficulties of planning, but, even allowing for that, so far as his explanation has gone I cannot see that he met the objection which I was trying to raise.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I hope the noble Lord is aware of the fact that when the order stage is reached there will be ample opportunity for the interests affected to lodge their objection. What we want to avoid is the prevention of planning by authorities because they cannot see where their fast motor traffic is to go. What the planning authority wants to know is whether there is going to be a fast motor route from, say, a new town to London. That will be decided under the scheme stage, because that is the stage at which the line of the route is fixed from one place to another. We want to make this information available for planning authorities at the earliest convenient moment, and not to be held up by having to keep the line of these routes dark until the way in which the layout is going to be elaborated by the engineers has been decided.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am not certain that this goes quite far enough. Paragraph I of this Schedule says:
"… within the said period any person may by notice to the Minister object to the making or confirmation of the scheme."
Surely that is the stage at which objection should be made, but an objection cannot be made at that stage unless the scheme is rather fuller than the noble Earl has indicated in the two short speeches he has made on this Amendment. Perhaps the levels and gradients of the special roads need not be included
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before objection can be lodged to a scheme; but when you are going to stop up existing roads and footpaths and when you are going to interfere with waterways and streams, that information ought surely to be in the original scheme, so that people may know exactly what the effect of the road is going to be. I would ask the noble Earl to have a look at this matter, and perhaps have a talk with some of us between now and the Report stage, to see whether fuller information cannot be given, even if not quite so full as is called for by this Amendment.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I will gladly see whether more can be included in the scheme. I think that desire is common ground. I shall be most grateful for the assistance of the noble Lords, Lord Llewellin and Lord De L'Isle and Dudley, in the consideration of this matter with my advisers between now and the next stage.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: I thank the noble Earl for that offer, and I hope we shall be able to discuss the matter. I should like to point out that if there is to be an inquiry held by the Minister, the person appointed to inquire will want knowledge of the scheme. He will not wish to rely on a map, and I cannot see how a proper inquiry can be held without more detail than is provided in the First Schedule. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule [Classes of traffic for purposes of special roads]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 15, leave out from ("Class I") to ("motor tractors") in line 16.—(The Earl of Lislowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved, in the proposed Class II, at the beginning of paragraph (b) to insert:
"road making and repairing machinery and also".
The noble Viscount said: This is a small point. It is felt that while the Government are putting down in considerable

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detail the classes of traffic which are or are not to be allowed on the special roads, it is not clear what provision is to be made for the movements of the road-making and repairing machinery that will be required. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 35, at beginning insert the said words.—(Viscount Gage.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I do not think the noble Viscount's Amendment is necessary, because his point is already covered in the Bill. Lorries or steel rollers or other vehicles required for the making or repair or maintenance of special roads will have to be included among the authorised traffic which can use the road, or, alternatively, which can be authorised to use it by regulations made under Clause 12 (2) (c). This provision of the Bill, I understand, is specifically directed to cover vehicles required for repairs and maintenance.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I understood from the noble Earl earlier that any vehicle that was to receive this special provision had to be mentioned in a regulation. I understood the noble Earl to say that such a regulation would have to be approved by Parliament. I should have thought that if these particular vehicles came under the first portion of his remarks they would be perfectly all right; but surely it is not necessary to authorise a road-making and repairing vehicle to use a road every time it has to go on that road. I should have thought it was a normal procedure that such vehicles should be allowed to go over the road which they were going to repair—I do not say to use the road to get to other roads.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think we are speaking on different points. I was dealing with authorised vehicles which can use the road to travel either along it or across it. I think the noble Lord was dealing only with traffic going along the road, traffic used for repair and maintenance.
VISCOUNT GAGE: It is obvious that unless these vehicles are allowed to be used, there will not be any special roads. I am perfectly satisfied with the noble
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Earl's explanation—though I do not profess to understand it—and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Third Schedule [Orders under Trunk Roads Act, 1946, to be treated as schemes under this Act]:
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE had given Notice of a number of Amendments to add to the list of orders, of which the first was to add:
"Stevenage By-pass, County of Hertford."
The noble Earl said: The purpose of these Amendments is to identify the new roads which have been either recently constructed or authorised, and which are to become special roads under Clause 1 of this Bill. The roads include the Severn Bridge, the Steven age By-pass, the Newport By-pass and others, and the descriptions I have suggested would, in my opinion, make the roads and the orders relating to them easier to recognise. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 16, column 2, at beginning insert ("Stevenage By-pass, County of Hertford").—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I have been rather disobliging about the noble Earl's Amendments this afternoon, and it is quite a relief to me personally to find one at least which I am authorised to accept—at any rate in spirit. We agree entirely that it is desirable that these roads should have popular names which are easily recognised, and that therefore a technical and official description is not enough. We should like to include the names which the noble Earl has suggested, but we think they ought not to be in exactly the place in which he wants to put them. If he is willing to withdraw his Amendment, we will put down other Amendments to cover this point before the next stage.
EARL HOWE: I am grateful to the noble Earl, and beg lease to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.
House resumed.

EXPORT GUARANTEES BILL
6.28 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

MINISTER OF FOOD (FINANCIAL POWERS) BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, before moving the Third Reading of this Bill perhaps I may remind your Lordships that the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and myself had some slight controversy on the Second Reading of this Bill. I promised that I would read his speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have done so, and I find that I was misled by his concluding remarks, because I took certain words out of their context. In doing so I did him an injustice in misinterpreting what he said concerning the development of the Commonwealth and Colonial Territories, and the possibilities of continuing guaranteed prices for agricultural products in this country.
I can see that there was very little difference between the noble Lord's statement and the statement made by Mr. Peake in another place. I am anxious to clear up this point and, in so doing, to inform the noble Lord how much I regret the misinterpretation of his remarks. I can see now that there is very little difference between what he said and what I believe in in relation both to the development of Colonial and Commonwealth Territories and to the protection of agriculture in this country. I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Hall.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, as it is so unlike the noble Viscount opposite in any way to misinterpret anything that is said, I thought that there had been a misunderstanding between us on Second Reading. If I may say so, it is typical of the noble Viscount that now, without any suggestion from me, he has made the statement that he has just made. I appreciate it very much and thank him for clearing up the matter so completely.
On Question, Bill read 3a and passed.

NATIONAL THEATRE BILL
6.32 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, at this late hour I will detain your Lordships for only a few minutes. I regret that I was unable to be present when the Second Reading of the Bill was under consideration. I recognise that it is now too late to alter the practically unanimous decision of both Houses of Parliament, approving the erection of a National Theatre on the south bank of the Thames, immediately adjoining County Hall, when it is just possible that the grandchildren of some of your Lordships may be alive to see this scheme bear fruition. I trust, however, that your Lordships will allow me, as one who has been associated with South Kensington for many years and has represented it in Parliament for twenty-seven years, to say how proud South Kensington is to possess a cultural group such as is essential to the plans for the establishment of a National Theatre. I regret, however, that pending the time when the ambitious proposals recently adumbrated in your Lordships' House by the Lord Chancellor, for the erection of a theatre, a concert hall, a restaurant, workshops and many other amenities, on the south bank of the Thames, materialise, the National Theatre Committee should have decided not to retain the site at South Kensington for the erection of the Theatre there, as originally intended.
Apart from the size of the site, nearly all the requirements for a National Theatre are to be found in the site which was purchased immediately opposite the South Kensington Museum. It is in the middle of a cultural centre, and the initial stages incidental to the locale of a National Theatre are already there. I trust that even now it may not be too late for consideration to be given to the retention of this site, together with the money subscribed for the erection of a theatre thereon, pending the availability

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of the site, after its use for other purposes, on the south side of the river adjoining County Hall. As was pointed out by the Lord Chancellor a few weeks ago, three purposes have to be served by this site before even an attempt is made at the building of the National Theatre. Your Lordships can therefore imagine how long it will be before any National Theatre actually comes into operation immediately adjoining County Hall.
I am not going into the merits of the case, for it is too late to do that. But, after all, people will use the place mainly at night. When one thinks of that great block of the County Hall, in total darkness at night when all the clerks have left, it is not a very attractive prospect for people to cross the river at that point, in order to go to the National Theatre. The sum of £1,000,000 authorised by Parliament in the Bill should more than provide the necessary funds for the erection in clue course of a. National Theatre, while allowing at the same time for the retention, with the consent of the London County Council, of the present site for the erection of a smaller theatre which, as I have said, meets all the requirements of a National Theatre, because it has all the amenities of a cultural centre already formed. I trust that the trustees will also bear in mind that a considerable sum of money for the erection of a National Theatre was subscribed for the erection of such a Theatre on the site in South Kensington and not on the south side of the river. I hope that these considerations will carry weight with the trustees.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to say one or two words in reply to the noble Lord. First of all, this Bill does not provide for the amalgamation that has taken place and for the exchange of territory upon which the Theatre is to be built. All that the Bill does is to recognise the facts. The Government have been appealed to by the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, for a grant. The Government have responded to that appeal, and are now asking Parliament to make such a grant possible. However, the grant is dependent on the Government being ultimately satisfied that an appropriate scheme has been established or proposed. That scheme
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will come before the Government, and then the question of the grant will be determined. I can assure the noble Lord that, although he is very late with his remarks, they will be given consideration by the persons concerned.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Lord for his reply.
On Question, Bill read 3a and passed.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL
6.38 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Ammon.)
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I wish to refer for a few moments to two points which I raised on the Second Reading of this Bill. The intention of Parliament clearly is to establish the junior colleges as soon as possible. That was the intention of the previous Government, and it should be our desire to make the period of postponement as short as possible. At the time of the Second Reading, I ventured to express doubt as to whether leaving the date indefinite was the best way to secure this object. I realise that I could have pressed the point by means of an Amendment, but I did not want to do so because I felt sure that the Secretary of State for Scotland had given careful thought to this Bill and that he had reasons to support his view that leaving the matter indefinite was better than fixing a target date. But I still have the feeling that it would be better to name a date one year or two years from now. Perhaps the noble Lord will say a word in reply on that subject, giving some reason, if possible, for the Secretary of State's decision.
The second point was that those in educational circles in Scotland are much concerned at the number of young people who, after leaving school, are not attending any kind of night school at all. The percentage is about 75, and a good deal of disquiet is felt on that subject. On the Second Reading of the Bill, I suggested that the Secretary of State might consider a measure of compulsion; pos-

171
sibly he might consider that there should be an evening class for young people on one night a week in the present premises. I realised that there were grave administrative and also psychological difficulties in pressing this suggestion of compulsion, nevertheless I felt that, as we are postponing for an indefinite period the starting of these junior colleges because there are no premises ready, we should consider using the existing premises which the education authorities have available to institute measures of evening school attendance in this way. If the noble Lord is able to touch upon those matters very briefly, I shall be much obliged.
6.41 p.m.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, in the first place I hope the noble Lord will understand that my noble friend Lord Morrison is not at all discourteous; he rather expected that these points would have been raised on the Committee stage and not now. If I may deal first with the question of the date for commencing compulsory attendance at junior colleges, I would point out that it was suggested in the Second Reading debate here and also in another place that a date should be fixed now and put into the Bill, instead of doing what the Bill proposes—to place the duty upon the Secretary of State of fixing as early a day as he considers practicable. This suggestion has again been carefully considered, but the result has been to confirm the conclusion previously reached. There is a great deal of work to be done in building new primary and secondary schools and in improving and modernising existing schools, in order that the size of classes may be reduced and full advantage be taken of the great opportunities given by the raising of the school leaving age to 15. This work should take precedence over the building of junior colleges. It is quite impossible at present to estimate how long it will take to do what is required for primary and secondary education. Any date which might be put into the Bill now would be pure guesswork.
But, as Lord Morrison told your Lordships in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, the Government are anxious to start compulsory attendance at junior colleges as soon as practicable. Preliminary steps are already being taken to
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plan the provision of these colleges. Everything possible is being done to promote the day-release on a voluntary basis of young workers, and much experience is being gained which will be of great value when compulsory attendance begins. That is the reply that my noble friend asked me to convey on the first point which the noble Lord raised. I do not know whether he wishes to comment on it now.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: No, I have no comment.
LORD AMMON: In regard to the second point my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Scotland, has considered the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, during the Second Reading debate, that compulsory attendance at evening classes should be instituted as a temporary measure until compulsory attendance at junior colleges can be started, but for several reasons does not feel able to adopt the suggestion. The plan in the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, is that hours of compulsory attendance at junior colleges are to be part of the working hours of the young people concerned and are not to involve any increase in the length of their working week. The new proposal would involve either an extension of the total working hours or the transfer of some of the working hours from the day to the evening. For example, a half-day's leave from the factory or the shop might have to be given to make up for an evening's work at night school.
My right honourable friend does not think that either arrangement would be popular with the young people or would produce successful results. Nor is it likely that the proposal would be welcomed by employers. Under the voluntary day-release arrangements which we are encouraging at present much of the time is given to technical education, and even the less progressive employers can see that this has industrial advantages. Facilities are not, however, available for giving technical education to all the young people who would be affected by the new proposals, and all that could normally be given would be makeshift general education.
The practical difficulties in the way would be a serious shortage of suitable staff and accommodation. We are already short of staff who can give the

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kind of further education required to young people attending voluntarily and we have not suitable accommodation. It would do great harm to the cause of further education to compel these young people to go back into day schools in the evening and to treat them again as school children—and, incidentally, put them in charge of tired day-school teachers who have already done a full day's work. I hope that this reply will prove satisfactory, although perhaps not all that the noble Lord expected.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: I thank the noble Lord for his statement.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

AMERICAN AID AND EUROPEAN PAYMENTS (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL
6.47 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE COURTS-MARTIAL COMMITTEE
THE MARQUESS OF READING THE MARQUESS OF READING had given Notice that he would call attention to the Report of the Army and Air Force Courts-Martial Committee (Cmd. 7608); and would move for Papers. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I have already informed my noble friend Lord Hall, who I understand was going to reply, that as not only five o'clock but six o'clock has passed I thought it undesirable that I should begin this discussion to-day.
CERTIFICATE FROM EXAMINERS
The LORD SPEAKER on behalf of the Lord Chancellor acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
WANDSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS [H.L.]
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
OLDBURY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]

  SLOUGH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills—namely,

  L. Ellenborough,

  L. Hampton,

  L. Merthyr (Chairman),

  L. Ailwyn,

  L. Marley:

  Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly.

  NEW FOREST BILL [H.L.]
  Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee: Laid upon the Table, to be printed, and to be delivered out.
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (NORTHERN IRELAND) REGULATIONS, 1949.
  Regulations, dated 23rd February, 1949, made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Representation of the People Act, 1948: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
  ROYAL GALLERY RESTORATIONS
  ROYAL GALLERY RESTORATIONS