Sitting of 4 July 1949

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  CREWE CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
    MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL [Lords]
    Read a Second time, and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Allotments, Regent's Park
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the Minister of Works on what grounds he is proposing to terminate the tenancies of allotment holders in Regent's Park at the end of this year; if he will reconsider his decision, in view of the valuable food produced, and that, in most cases, the plots are so situated that they are unsuitable for the playing of games.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Key): My statutory duties require me to maintain the Royal Parks for the use and enjoyment of the public as a whole and not to alienate portions of them to individuals. I have carefully considered the decision to terminate the tenancies of the allotments in Regent's Park at the end of this year and I am unable to alter it. All the allotments occupy ground which before the war was used for games and it will be used for this purpose again when it has been restored.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the admirable principles which he has enunciated as to his stewardship of the Royal Parks when he is considering Richmond Park?
    Mr. Key: I have already told the hon. Gentleman over and over again that that is the case with regard to Richmond Park.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Are not the allotments necessary to the public as a whole for the production of food, and is not food more important than games?

    Transport Division (Reorganisation)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Works why the reorganisation of the transport division of his Department has been carried out without honouring the redundancy agreement; and what provision he proposes to make for the men who have been turned off in spite of the 1914–18 pledge.
    Mr. Key: As I have already explained to the hon. Member a major reorganisation of the transport division, involving posts with revised salary scales, became necessary and it was not possible to deal with the reorganisation on the basis of normal redundancy in a particular grade. After advising the staff association concerned, notices of discharge were issued to all existing staff. The claims of all these officers to appointments to the new posts were considered by a selection board specially convened for the purpose and new appointments were offered to the best qualified of them. I regret that I cannot undertake to make any special provisions for those discharged following this reorganisation.
    Mr. Gammans: Does any reorganisation of this division justify the Government in breaking the pledge they gave to the men of the 1914–18 war?
    Mr. Key: No pledge to the men was broken by this reorganisation. That pledge dealt with the normal redundancy in any one grade. This matter concerns the whole reorganisation of the transport division.
    Mr. Gammans: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether, as the result of that reorganisation, any men who came into his Department after the 1914–18 war have been given the sack and have not been offered new jobs?
    Mr. Key: Yes, Sir.

    Requisitioned Buildings, Grosvenor Square
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Minister of Works why a notice of requisition has

    1759
    been served by his Department upon the owners of Nos. 33 and 34, Grosvenor Square, London, W.1.
    Mr. Key: These properties were urgently required by the European Co-operation Administration for use as office accommodation. Since no offer of a lease or tenancy could be obtained, except on terms which the Administration were legally precluded from accepting, and possession was urgently needed, the premises were requisitioned. If suitable terms of occupation can be agreed the requisition will be withdrawn.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they say in Grosvenor-square that an Englishman must now have an American visa if he is to get into the square, even for the ownership of his own property?
    Mr. Key: People who say that in Grosvenor-square are obviously saying something that is not true.

    Prefabricated Buildings, Macclesfield
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Works whether the erection of the prefabricated buildings at Byron Street and Athey Street Secondary Schools, Macclesfield, will be completed before 1st October.
    Mr. Key: Yes, Sir.

  FUEL AND POWER

    Petrol Allowances
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the Minister of Fuel and Power why a firm contemplating buying a motor car for business use cannot be informed before acquiring the car whether the necessary petrol to run it will be granted on providing the full information as to the use to which the car will be put if obtained.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): Regional petroleum officers have standing instructions to make a provisional assessment, if requested, of the quantity of petrol which will be granted. But if the hon. Member has any case of difficulty in mind and will send me details, I shall be glad to look into it.
    Sir W. Wakefieldasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the basis of
    1760
    the reduction in the petrol allowed to a commercial traveller, previously journeying in a Class C vehicle or van in a certain area, who changes from a van to a saloon car to carry out the same work over the same area.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Operators of goods vehicles used solely for the transport of goods are, and always have been, granted petrol by the district transport officers of the Ministry of Transport on the basis of meeting their essential requirements in full. Commercial travellers using a car which can also be used for private purposes are assessed by my regional petroleum officers in accordance with a fixed scale of allowances. It would be impossible to issue petrol coupons for private cars on the same basis as for goods vehicles without serious abuse involving a substantial increase in petrol consumption.
    Sir W. Wakefield: When a firm changes, for reasons of efficiency, from a van to a private car, is it not unreasonable not to give the same amount of petrol to cover the same area for exactly the same purpose? Surely it is inefficient to carry out an allotment on the basis described by the Minister?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I certainly would not describe it as inefficient. One has to draw the line somewhere between goods vehicles and private vehicles, and in this case we have followed the definition laid down by the Motor Spirit Regulations which were recently made.

    Hard Coke Supplies
    Mr. A. Edward Daviesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether sufficient supplies of hard coke are now available to meet the needs of the iron and steel industry; and what is the prospect for the future.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir." In addition, some hard coke is now being exported. As regards the second part of the Question, forward estimates of hard coke requirements of the iron and steel industry have been prepared, and energetic steps are being taken to see that coke oven capacity—including new ovens—will be sufficient to produce the necessary supplies of coke.

    Electricity (Generating Programme)
    Mr. A. Edward Daviesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how far supplies of electricity are falling short of requirements; what are the prospects for next autumn and winter; and what progress is being made to overtake shortage of equipment.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would refer my hon. Friend to the remarks I made on the generating programme during the Debate on fuel and power on 19th May.

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Board's Report
    Mr. Charles Smithasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will arrange the production for wider circulation of a summarised version of the National Coal Board's Report for 1948 in popular form.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies) on 27th June.

    Quality (Complaints, Birmingham)
    Mr. Shurmerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that a 10-ton truck of coal, unloaded in Birmingham last week, contained two-thirds waste and slack; that there is a general complaint from coal merchants in that city regarding the quality of coal distributed there; and what action he intends to take.
    Mr. Gaitskell: No, Sir. Soon after Press reports of this incident appeared, one of my regional coal officers inspected the contents of this truck of opencast coal. Some of the coal had already been sold; the remainder consisted of a small heap of good clean slack, and several tons of hard coal of reasonable calorific value with a negligible proportion of dirt. This hard coal, however, does not look attractive and is unpopular with some domestic consumers.
    With regard to the second part of the Question, no general complaint has been made to my Department by Birmingham coal merchants about the quality of coal delivered to them recently. Since the Press report appeared about this truck,
    1762
    however, I have received representations from two merchants, one of whom is the consignee of the truck. As regards the last part of the Question, I would refer to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd), on 31st March. I would add, however, that if the opencast coal which forms about 6 per cent. of the total allocation of this region were withdrawn, I could hold out no hope of replacing it by other coal.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the Minister aware that I hold in my hand a photograph of the two-thirds of slack from the wagon, and that since my Question was put down, I have received a letter from a large firm in Birmingham which refused to handle seven truck loads of coal because of the rubbish it contained, and returned it? Can my right hon. Friend say what is to happen to the people in Birmingham who must go short of the coal? We are getting short enough in Birmingham as it is.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have already answered the original Question very fully and shown that we have had a complete inspection of this allocation. There is a recognised channel for complaints. If the merchant is dissatisfied, he should get in touch at once with the area marketing officer of the National Coal Board and discuss the matter with him. This has been agreed between the merchants, the Board and my Ministry.
    Mr. Assheton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a considerable portion, or, at any rate, a proportion, of opencast coal is quite unsaleable by his Department?
    Mr. Gaitskell: No, Sir, because it is, in fact, sold.
    Mr. Assheton: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that seriously—that all the opencast coal which is mined is being sold? That is contrary to the information which I have.
    Mr. Gaitskell: During the past winter there was a considerable fall in the stocks of opencast coal. There has been a very slight rise since the beginning of the summer, but that is a normal seasonal occurrence.
    Mr. Benn Levy: Is a photograph of a truck the best possible means of assessing the quality of coal?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I should prefer a scientific analysis on the site, as was done.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Railway Executive is very dissatisfied with the quality of coal being provided for the locomotives—
    Mr. Speaker: That supplementary question is too wide. The Question does not relate to the provision of coal generally.

  LEASEHOLD COMMITTEE (REPORT)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Attorney-General if, in view of his deferring reaching a decision on the proposals of the interim Report of the Leasehold Committee, he can say when the final Report can be expected.
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Frank Soskice): I regret that I am unable yet to say when the final Report of the Leasehold Committee can be expected.
  Mr. Piratin: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that, so far as he is concerned, the final Report will be expedited so that legislation can be introduced in this Parliament?
  The Solicitor-General: That must be a matter for the Committee when they present their final Report.
  Brigadier Medlicott: Having regard to the weighty arguments put forward in the two minority Reports presented by the Committee, is it not clear that this is a matter on which the Government will be justified in taking time for consideration?
  The Solicitor-General: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: Since the interim Report has to await a final Report, and since so many owners of small businesses are daily being oppressed by acquisitive landlords, will my right hon. and learned Friend make it clear whether the legislation to be introduced is likely to be retrospective?
  The Solicitor-General: I do not think I can anticipate any Government decision on the matter.
  Mr. Janner: Will my right hon. and learned Friend reconsider his decision, particularly because large numbers of
  1764
  people are being threatened with eviction from their business premises and offices and have no alternative but to await this legislation?
  The Solicitor-General: The decision was very carefully considered before it was reached, and I am afraid that I can see no ground at the moment which would justify its reversal.

  DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY (TASS AGENCY)
  Mr. Wilson Harrisasked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the recent ruling of the Court of Appeal in the case Krajina v. Tass Agency, to the effect that the agency in question is protected against actions for libel by diplomatic immunity; and whether he is considering amendment of the law of immunity in this and similar cases.
  The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): I have been asked to reply. The Court of Appeal decided, applying the existing law, that as, on the evidence before the Court, it did not appear that the Tass Agency was a legal entity separate from the Soviet Government on the ordinary legal principles applicable, the action would not lie. The immunity from suit of foreign States, their Governments and Government Departments is different from diplomatic immunity but rests equally upon an established principle of international law.
  His Majesty's Government are studying the decision of the Court, but I am not yet in a position to state whether any change in the existing law will be thought necessary, and, as leave to appeal to the House of Lords has been given, I think in any case any statement at the present moment would be premature.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if the law as interpreted by the Court of Appeal stands, it means that any agency sponsored by any foreign Government can libel anyone in this country from the highest in the land down to myself with complete impunity? Does he recognise that in the case of any Government less meticulously scrupulous about the courtesies than the Soviet Government, a very serious situation might be created?
  Mr. McNeil: I am advised that the alarming conclusions which the hon. Gentleman has drawn do not necessarily follow. At any rate, I should have thought that since the ordinary processes have not necessarily been exhausted, it would be premature for me to offer any opinion on those alarming conclusions.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the present law of immunity of sovereign States is based on nineteenth century conceptions of sovereignty—in most cases on the monarchy—which are quite out of date in modern conditions in which States take part in a great many activities, and that the law should be reconsidered?
  Mr. McNeil: I have already pointed out that this does not rest upon, although it is related to, the law of immunity, and I am sure that my hon. Friend would not expect me to be drawn into the much wider implications of that false hypothesis.
  Sir Ronald Ross: Is the right hon. Gentleman content that we should all be liable to be called the same names as he is called in Moscow?

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Imported Cereals
    Mr. Selwyn Lloydasked the Minister of Food what proportion of the cereals imported into this country during 1948 was bought through private firms in the grain trade.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summer-skill): A very small proportion in 1948—less than one per cent.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: In view of what the Minister of Food said in this House on 26th May this year, will the right hon. Lady convey that information to her right hon. Friend?
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman misunderstood my right hon. Friend, who said that he reserved the right either to enter into Government-to-Government contracts or to use private trade. The hon. and learned Gentleman, I remember, denied that categorically, and this has proved that my right hon. Friend was right.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Does not the right hon. Lady recollect that the right hon. Gentleman began by saying that all cereals were bought through private merchants?
    Dr. Summerskill: My right hon. Friend said:
    "I did not say that the Ministry of Food do not buy direct when they wish to, but I say they reserve the right to buy through firms in the grain trade acting as their agents, as they have done through these years, when they consider it right to do so."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 26th May, 1949; Vol. 465, c. 1568.]
    Mr. Selwyn Lloydasked the Minister of Food what proportion of the cereals imported into this country during 1948 came from countries other than Australia, Canada, U.S.A., and the Argentine.
    Dr. Summerskill: 11.15 per cent.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloydasked the Minister of Food what proportion of the cereals bought from Australia, Canada, U.S.A., and the Argentine, respectively, in 1948 was bought through private firms in the grain trade.
    Dr. Summerskill: None, Sir.

    Sugar Refiners (Payments)
    Mr. Boothbyasked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been called to the fact that on pages 22 and 42 of the Trading Accounts and Balance Sheets, 1947–48, it is stated that subsidies amounting to £12,739,256 are paid to sugar refiners in this country to enable them to earn an approved profit margin, whereas in fact no subsidies are paid to the refining industry; and whether, in view of the misunderstanding which may arise, he will take steps to rectify this error and to clarify the position.
    Dr. Summerskill: In the 1947–48 accounts we showed separately that part of the subsidy on sugar which is represented by the payments made to sugar refiners. In paragraph iv (f) on page 22 of the Trading Accounts it is indicated that the payments are made on a basis which will enable them to earn an approved profit margin after taking account of the cost of raw sugar, their operating expenses and the prices at which they are required to sell.
    Mr. Boothby: Arising out of that answer, did not the right hon. Lady herself tell the House in November, 1945,

    1767
    that sugar refiners received no subsidy, and is it not important, when the reorganisation of this industry is under consideration, that the Ministry should not give the impression in their accounts that the industry is in receipt of a large subsidy when, in fact, it is not?
    Dr. Summerskill: I think the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the position. Of course, we distinguish between subsidies which are losses on trading and subsidies of this kind. Ultimately this subsidy will go to the consumer, but we have shown in the trading accounts just where it is injected, at the refining stage. We have done it for other trades and nobody has objected except Messrs. Tate and Lyle. I think they are unduly sensitive.

    Chocolates and Sweets
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the fact that the withdrawal of sweet rationing was in the nature of an experiment, he will now give an assurance that in connection with any further experiments involving the de-rationing of food, he will take particular steps at the outset as to ensure the success of the operation.
    Dr. Summerskill: An operation the success of which can be ensured at the outset cannot be described as an experiment. My right hon. Friend dealt very fully with this subject in the Adjournment Debate on 3rd June and I cannot add to what he then said.
    Mr. De la Bère: Did not the right hon. Gentleman allude to it as being in the nature of an experiment, and is it not a fact that, in view of the attitude adopted by the Government at the very outset of the de-rationing of sweets, namely, giving only a negligible quantity of additional raw materials, the scheme could not possibly succeed? Is it not true to say that what the Government really had in mind was adversely to affect public opinion against all forms of de-rationing? I suggest that is the case.
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman illustrates what I said in my answer. My right hon. Friend did describe it as an experiment and, unfortunately, it was not successful.
    Mr. John Paton: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether that supplementary question is not an expression of a guilty conscience?
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Will the right hon. Lady confirm that a great deal of the apparent shortage is due to the fact that distributing agencies such as cinemas and race courses, etc., which previously took sweets and agreed with the Government that they would not do so during rationing, then came forward again and took them. Is not a great deal of the shortage due to redistribution methods rather than to anything else?
    Dr. Summerskill: No, I cannot accept that. The reason is that the nation has a sweet tooth, the size of which we could not entirely assess.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that the failure of sweets de-rationing was due to completely inaccurate forecasts from people who are supposed to know the trade?
    Mr. Stubbsasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that at the Cambridge fair, held on 22nd to 24th June, gambling tables were packed with high-class chocolates, given to winners; that many people, especially in the villages, have not been able to buy chocolates since rationing ended; and if he will immediately ration sweets again to establish fair shares for all.
    Dr. Summerskill: Stallholders obtaining sweets for this purpose may only purchase their supplies from licensed retailers in the same way as any other member of the public. As regards the reimposition of rationing, I can add nothing at present to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 22nd June to my hon. Friend the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn).
    Mr. Stubbs: Is the right hon. Lady aware that high-class chocolate manufacturers do not supply these people? Can she account for the huge quantity of high-class chocolate in the hands of these people? Further, is she aware that since de-rationing people in the villages hardly ever see any chocolate or the children any sweets? Cannot she stop this dilly-dallying and put sweets back on the ration?
    Dr. Summerskill: I can only say to my hon. Friend that we have made inquiries and, as far as we can ascertain, these chocolates were obtained by legitimate means.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: When the greedy have become gorged, is it not reasonable to assume that supply and demand will be reconciled? Therefore, why not leave this experiment for a few more months to see how it works out?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am afraid there is no sign yet of their being satiated.
    Mr. Symonds: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a week before this fair took place, the stallholders were sending touts around to retailers in the town offering fantastic prices for sweets and, for instance, offering five shillings for a packet of 20 cigarettes? Is there no means of stopping that?
    Dr. Summerskill: Certainly, if my hon. Friend will give me details of the stall-holders concerned, we will institute proceedings.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Would my right hon. Friend agree that sweet rationing always worked smoothly and gave fair shares to everybody, and since the ending of rationing has altered that position, why should there be any doubt or delay in getting back to the former position?
    Dr. Summerskill: We are considering getting back to the former position now.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the de-rationing of sweets has been followed by a reduction of supplies reaching some wholesalers; and whether, in view of this, he will accelerate a decision as to whether or not sweets will once again be rationed.
    Dr. Summerskill: Most manufacturers are distributing their supplies as fairly as possible, although some complaints have reached us. As regards the reimposition of rationing, I can add nothing at present to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 22nd June to my hon. Friend the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn).
    Mr. Noel-Baker: We are becoming rather accustomed to the second part of
    1770
    my right hon. Friend's answer. Can she really assure the House that she is aware of the strong feeling and anxiety of many people on this subject, and why cannot she speed up a decision on this matter? May I also ask her whether, in specific cases where retailers' supplies have gone down drastically since sweet rationing ended, she will look into the matter if such cases are brought to her notice?
    Dr. Summerskill: May I remind my hon. Friend of the answer I have given to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman), namely, that we are now considering the matter?
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Food why blocks of milk chocolate could not be bought at Blackpool during Whitsun week.
    Dr. Summerskill: Milk chocolate forms only a small part of the chocolate and sugar confectionery supply, and it does not surprise me that my hon. Friend found none on sale in Blackpool during Whitsun week. Even under rationing we could not guarantee that any particular kind of chocolate would be available.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Would the right hon. Lady be surprised to know that three days afterwards when I was in Berlin there was an abundance of chocolate on the black market?
    Dr. Summerskill: That is probably because my right hon. Friend and I are not in charge of Berlin's affairs.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Can my right hon. Friend explain why there is no chocolate of any kind either in Blackpool or anywhere else in Britain—
    Sir T. Moore: That is not true.
    Mrs. Mann: —either during the week or weekend or at any time since rationing ended?
    Dr. Summerskill: My hon. Friend would agree with me that even when rationing was in force there was not an unlimited supply of chocolate. It was not possible for everybody to get their ration honoured with chocolate alone, and people therefore had to take other sweets. The same position, of course, obtains now.
    Mr. A. R. W. Low: Did the last answer but one by the right hon. Lady mean that she was telling the people of Blackpool

    1771
    that if there were another set of Ministers in the Ministry of Food, there would be milk chocolate in Blackpool?
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is not the lesson of this example of de-rationing, "Never take Lord Woolton's advice"?

    Early Potatoes
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food what instructions he has given for the disposal of more than 300 tons of Cornish new potatoes which were until recently lying in the railway sidings at Monkwearmouth and elsewhere.
    Dr. Summerskill: All the Cornish potatoes bought by my Department have now been cleared, including those sent to Monkwearmouth. Most were sold for human consumption but some had to be disposed of for stockfeeding and processing.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the disastrous losses sustained by the Ministry of Food, will the right hon. Lady give an undertaking that she will go out of the potato business tomorrow morning?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Why not tonight?
    Dr. Summerskill: I should like the House to know why this happened. The reason is that 48,000 tons of potatoes were delivered to us by the growers in 11 days, and the railways were unable to cope with the situation.
    Mr. Douglas Marshall: Arising out of what the right hon. Lady has said, is she not aware that I asked the right hon. Gentleman to extend the date by one week and that the refusal to extend it has caused this confusion? Is she not also aware that a great shortage of sacks came about through her Department, and that it was due to the shortage of sacks that the trucks were filled and congested the railways?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong about the sacks. We sent so many sacks into the area that half a million have not been used.
    Commander Agnew: Was the delay further exacerbated by the fact that although in one case a large quantity of sacks was available, they were not
    1772
    allowed to be used until they had "M.O.F." stamped upon them?
    Dr. Summerskill: No, I cannot agree with that. The reason was that the farmers under-estimated the crop, which was 50 per cent. higher than they had originally estimated.
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food how many railway trucks loaded with potatoes were lying in the sidings at Manchester on or about 18th June; and whether they have now been cleared.
    Dr. Summerskill: One hundred and twenty-eight trucks, the last of which had been cleared by 23rd June.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the enormous losses sustained by the Ministry of Food, will the right hon. Lady give an undertaking to go out of the potato business tomorrow morning or tonight?
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Food what quantity of this season's crop of Cornish potatoes has been used for stock feed.
    Dr. Summerskill: About 15,250 tons.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the right hon. Lady realise that this situation was brought about owing to really bad management and distribution on the part of her Department, and is she further aware that had supplies been available even on the basis of last year's crop, some of them would have reached my constituency in Macclesfield?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is wrong in the first part of his supplementary question. We could not possibly anticipate such a large crop this year. I have already said that it was 50 per cent. higher than even the growers estimated. I repeat that they sent 48,000 tons to be loaded and transported in 11 days and that it was quite impossible for the railways to undertake this task.
    Mr. D. Marshall: Is the right hon. Lady aware that she has completely missed the point with regard to the question of sacks? It is not a question of whether sufficient sacks were available at the end. There were not sufficient available at the beginning, and that is what caused the congestion at the end.
    Sir W. Smithers: Sack the lot!

    Tea Stocks
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Food what are the stocks of tea at the most recent available date; and at comparative periods in 1948 and 1947.
    Dr. Summerskill: It would not be in the national interest to give the figures for which the hon. Member asks.
    Mr. Piratin: Will the Minister recall that a little while ago her Department published figures which showed that the stocks in February last year were 1,900,000 lb. and in February this year 3,300,000 lb.? If her Department can publish these figures, why is it not possible for her to divulge them in this House so that we might then be able to say to her, "Why not half an ounce more tea per person"?
    Dr. Summerskill: If the hon. Gentleman knows those figures, I cannot understand why he has put a Question on the Order Paper.

    Typists, Hayward's Heath
    Colonel Clarkeasked the Minister of Food the cost in expenses, salaries and fares of the four relief typists recently brought from Colwyn Bay to Hayward's Heath for his carrot division for four weeks; and if he is aware that local girl typists could have been obtained.
    Dr. Summerskill: The cost was £87 17s. 2d. Two of the typists were sent from Chelmsford, where they were already on relief work. The normal practice of approaching the local employment exchange was not followed in this case as the area supervisor at Hayward's Heath had himself been asked for help by firms who had been unable to obtain typists from the exchange.
    Colonel Clarke: Is the right hon. Lady aware that at that time typists were available locally and that if they had been employed all the cost of travelling and of maintenance away from home might have been saved; and if this is going on all over the country, is it surprising that her Ministry confesses to a loss of over £1 million on carrots and £4½ million on potatoes?
    Dr. Summerskill: I looked into this matter very carefully and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the information
    1774
    I received about typists being available is not the same as his information.
    Mr. Osborne: Now that supply has caught up with demand, why do not the Government abolish the carrot division altogether?
    Dr. Summerskill: That is another question.

    Civic Restaurant, Bedford (Closing)
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Minister of Food what applications he has had from caterers in Bedford for the issue of increased quantities of rationed foodstuffs to meet the increased demands to which they are subject as a result of the closing of the civic restaurant.
    Dr. Summerskill: Only one, Sir.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable local disquiet because a really successful experiment in public enterprise has been stopped, and can she exert any influence on the local authority to look into this matter again so that local opinion will be effectively taken into account?
    Dr. Summerskill: I agree with my hon. Friend. I regret that this civic restaurant has been closed, but I am afraid that I have no power to influence a local authority in this matter.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is the right hon. Lady aware that if the full implications of the hon. Gentleman's remark that local opinion should be taken into account are, in fact, implemented, there might be some difference in the Parliamentary representation?
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: That is quite incorrect.

    Jam Manufacture (Sugar)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food what limitation there now is of the quantity of sugar available for jam manufacture; and if he will give an assurance that he will replace in full the sugar allotted to jam manufacturers during the last eight-week period but one, but not in fact delivered.
    Dr. Summerskill: Sugar is being released at the rate of 200,000 tons a year and we have agreed to hold a further

    1775
    7,000 tons in reserve for the industry in 1949 if we find that they need it. I have received no complaints that manufacturers were unable to obtain delivery of the sugar allotted to them for the last eight-week period but one, but if the hon. Member knows of any case in which this has happened, I shall be glad to look into it.
    Mr. De la Bère: Would the right hon. Lady be good enough to have a talk with me on this very important matter? I can give her a lot of useful information.
    Dr. Summerskill: I am always ready to help the hon. Gentleman when he is reasonable.

    Algerian Wine
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Food if, in view of the fact that no more wine is to bought by his Department, he will now state how much Algerian wine is at present held by his Department.
    Mr. Hollisasked the Minister of Food how much Algerian wine has been released from bond since last February.
    Dr. Summerskill: I regret I can add nothing to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) on 21st March.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Has not the right hon. Lady's objection in the past to publishing the figures of stocks been based on the ground that it might prejudice negotiations for future purchases, and can she at least assure the House that the Government are not proposing to buy wine of this sort?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman would agree that publication would work both ways it would prejudice future sales. At present we are negotiating sales and are at a very delicate stage in the negotiations. It would be quite wrong to disclose stocks now.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Would not the right hon. Lady agree that, because no one can drink it, the proper use of this wine in future is for cooking purposes in order to make the small amount of food that is available rather more palatable?

  GERMANY

    Berlin Air Lift
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what assistance France has given in the Berlin air lift.
    Mr. McNeil: The French Occupation Authorities control the unloading operations at Tegel airport, one of the three Berlin terminals of the air lift, and their assistance there has been of great value. No aircraft engaged in the air lift are based in the French zone which is geographically remote from the three air corridors leading in and out of Berlin. French aircraft have not participated in the operation because, I understand, they have had no suitable aircraft available.
    Mr. Hynd: Have any representations been made to France to lend one or two machines of Air France, as we have lent machines from our civil airlines?
    Mr. McNeil: I can only repeat that no suitable craft have been available. It does not necessarily follow that the machines of Air France would have fulfilled the qualifications required.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Is it not also a fact that France has declined to permit any of her food or other commodities to go on this Berlin expedition?
    Mr. McNeil: That is a quite unjustifiable assumption and is not connected with this Question.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Can my right hon. Friend tell us the answer to my question?

    Railway Workers, Berlin
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how much of the subvention of the wages of the railway workers by the West Berlin Magistrat is being provided from British sources.
    Mr. McNeil: None, Sir.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Would it be possible for my right hon. Friend to ask the other Members of the Government to give the same support to the demands of British railwaymen as they purport to have given to the alleged demands of these railwaymen?
    Mr. McNeil: The question of support, or non-support, does not arise. I was asked from where the subvention came. The answer is that the authorities are not responsible at all for the subvention.

    British Personnel (Vegetables)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will so amend his regulations that British personnel in Berlin will be permitted to buy fresh vegetables grown locally.
    Mr. McNeil: No, Sir.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a glut of vegetables in Berlin but that British personnel in Berlin have to wait a couple of days to get vegetables from Holland? Will he look into this grievance?
    Mr. McNeil: I have looked into it most carefully. It is true that there is a temporary glut but it is due to the fact that buyers rushed in during the temporary suspension of the blockade. But Berlin, over a considerable period, is a deficit area in vegetables, and His Majesty's Government would not agree to place further burdens on the Berliners in this matter.

    Oil-From-Coal Plants (Repairs)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the total expenditure he has sanctioned for repairs to oil-from-coal plants in Germany which have been now scheduled for destruction.
    Mr. McNeil: I am unable to confirm the reports circulated by the German firms concerned as to the amounts which they claim to have expended on their own responsibility. The specific expenditure in question was not sanctioned by Military Government which, at the request of the Land Government, merely authorised the grant of a licence for repair work.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that I was told by the president of the miners' union in the Ruhr that 17 million marks had been sanctioned for this purpose? Is he aware that this view is very generally held in the Ruhr, and is there some foundation for it?
    Mr. McNeil: I am aware that it is quite genuinely held, but I am also firmly aware, and have evidence, that the view and the figures are being circulated by the German firms affected.

  CHINA (COMMUNIST AUTHORITIES)
  Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will send a high-ranking personage to Peiping at once to open preliminary negotiations with the democratic authorities.
  Mr. McNeil: If, as I assume, the hon. Member is referring to the Chinese Communist authorities, the answer, as stated in a reply to the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) on 29th June, is that the Communist authorities have declined all contacts with the representatives we already have in China.
  Mr. Platts-Mills: Does my right hon. Friend not appreciate that the object of this Question is to suggest that he should send some high-ranking personage whom the authorities in that country will acknowledge, because the necessity of our establishing trade with the new China is so vital to the very survival of our country?
  Mr. McNeil: It has already been made plain several times that our consular officials are available for contact and, indeed, have attempted to make contact. Our Ambassador certainly cannot be described otherwise than as a high-ranking personage.

  FOREIGN OFFICE (Mrs. M. A. HAMILTON)
  Lord John Hopeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what appointment in his Department is held by Mrs. Mary Agnes Hamilton, C.B.E.; and what are the duties in connection with it.
  Mr. McNeil: Mrs. Mary Agnes Hamilton holds the post of Director of the American Information Department. Her duties are to provide approved material and guidance for the work of the British Information Services in the United States.
  Lord John Hope: While I have nothing to say against the personal integrity of

  1779
  this lady or her fitness for her job, does the Minister consider it is a good thing to have in this position someone who in the past has been so actively engaged in party politics?
  Mr. McNeil: I cannot follow the hon. Member's reasoning. This lady has many connections with the United States, both as a speaker, an author and, I believe, as a publisher. Her service, as the hon. Gentleman has observed, is impeccable. I can see no reason at all for proposing that she should be changed.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Speaking as one who has recently been to the United States, is my right hon. Friend in agreement with me when I say that this lady has been most helpful and impartial in regard to all the work of all Members of this House who have visited that country?
  Mr. McNeil: Yes, and she has been very successful.

  HUNGARY (ELECTIONS)
  Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reports he has received on the conduct of the recent General Election, or plebiscite in Hungary; to what extent the action taken by the Hungarian Government to eliminate all political opposition culminating in the holding of this plebiscite infringes the terms of the Yalta Agreement and of the Peace Treaty with Hungary; and what action His Majesty's Government will now take to seek to enforce the terms of the Peace Treaty.
  Mr. McNeil: The recent elections in Hungary permitted only candidates of the so-called People's Front, which had the approval of the Government. It was emphasised that an adverse vote or an abstention would be regarded as equivalent to treason. No publicity was allowed for views opposed to those of the Government. The elections were not in fact designed to give the Hungarian people an opportunity freely to elect representatives of their own choice. As regards the second part of the Question, there is no doubt that these elections were completely contrary both to the spirit and to the letter of the Yalta Agreement and of the Treaty of Peace with Hungary. As regards the third part of the Question, I
  1780
  would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply returned on 27th June to my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid). This describes the endeavour of His Majesty's Government to enforce the terms of the Peace Treaty.
  Major Beamish: In considering methods by which we can enforce the terms of a peace treaty, is reconsideration being given to our whole trade policy with Hungary and the other countries in the Marxist bloc, or is it still completely divorced from politics?
  Mr. McNeil: There have been several statements made on our trade policy. Our trade policy rests on mutual advantage, and I cannot see that the objective of the hon. and gallant Member would be furthered by discrimination against this policy of mutual advantage.

  HAIFA OIL REFINERY
  Mr. W. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position with regard to petroleum supplies from Haifa; and what representations have been made to the Government of Israel in this connection.
  Mr. McNeil: The Haifa refinery is not functioning at present owing to the recent hostilities in Palestine and to the fact that the pipeline from Iraq is still closed. There would not seem to be reason or occasion for His Majesty's Government to address themselves to the Government of Israel upon this subject. However, His Majesty's Government remain anxious to see Haifa operating again and we shall lose no opportunity of furthering this purpose.
  Mr. Fletcher: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as the non-functioning of this pipeline puts a great strain on us in dollars, its added urgency at the present moment should be borne upon him and upon everyone else?
  Mr. McNeil: I would not disagree.
  Mr. Warbey: Can my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that the Government are making every possible effort to get these refineries going again and making representations to all the authorities concerned in the Middle East, whether they be the Israeli, Iraqi or Egyptian Governments?
  Mr. McNeil: I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that no one periodical has exclusive information on this subject.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Are His Majesty's Government of the opinion that the proposal of the Iraqi Government that oil should only be allowed to come through the pipeline on the condition that it will not be used for war purposes the other end is a practical proposition, or not?
  Mr. Paget: Is it not a fact that the major part of the supplies to the Haifa refinery always came by tanker? Cannot that part of those supplies be restored?
  Mr. McNeil: I cannot say definitely that the major part always came by tanker. I am in agreement that we should seek to restore any sources of supply to this refinery.
  Mr. Janner: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Israel has expressed her willingness that the refinery should be used and in fact, for a short period after the establishment of Israel, it was so used, and that the Iraqi Government are standing in the way of any oil being sent through the pipeline? Will he do something about it?
  Mr. McNeil: I would have liked notice of the second part of that supplementary Question. The first part is correct, and, in answer to the third part, the Iraqi Government are not the only party to this proceeding.
  Mr. Benn Levy: In view of the fact that all the supply which used to come by tanker amounted to about two-thirds of the total, can my right hon. Friend say what is holding things up now?
  Mr. McNeil: I could not agree that two-thirds is a correct total, but I would not avoid admitting that it was a very substantial proportion. As my hon. Friend knows, it is a very complex problem.

  AUSTRIA (ELECTIONS)
  Mr. Shackletonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that agreement may be reached over the Austrian Peace Treaty, leading to the restoration of Austrian independence, he will now make further
  1782
  efforts to persuade the Allied Governments concerned to permit the holding of genuinely free elections.
  Mr. McNeil: If my hon. Friend has in mind the question of the freedom of the Austrians to form new political parties, I would refer him to the replies given on 9th May. My right hon. Friend has constantly in mind the possibility of making further representations in this matter.
  Mr. Shackleton: Will my right hon. Friend again seek to take up this matter, if necessary outside the Allied Control Commission, at the very highest level, bearing in mind that it is quite farcical to consider the possibility of a treaty being signed with Austria if they have not freedom to form new political parties?
  Mr. McNeil: Our view on the subject is well known and has been expressed, but I regret that it would not seem to me desirable to add anything to that view at present.
  Mr. Warbey: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a new situation is now arising in view of the fact that it is likely that there will be a treaty before long, and, since the American and the French seem to be the main obstacles to this desirable change, will he draw their attention to the fact that their attitude is out of accord with their general desire to maintain the traditions of Western democracy?

  TRANSPORT

    London Railways Plan (Report)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport the reason for the delay in the publication of the report of the working party on London transport facilities and when it will be available.
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Transport how soon he expects to receive the report of the working party on London transport facilities.
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): There has been no undue delay. The Report will be published tomorrow afternoon. It is a Report on London railways from a Working Party set up by

    1783
    the British Transport Commission to review the proposals of the Railway (London Plan) Committee. The publication will include the views which the British Transport Commission have submitted to me on the Working Party's Report. The estimated expenditure is of the order of £340 million; and the works which include many new tube and main line tunnels, would take some 20 or 30 years to complete. The proposals, if adopted, would exercise a determining influence on the planning of London, particularly in relation to the central area and the re-development of the South Bank. The future of the three railway bridges at Charing Cross, Blackfriars and Cannon Street is also involved. Clearly, therefore, the Government must give the fullest consideration to the Report, and to the major policy issues affecting the planning of London, before decisions on the Report can be reached. This will take some time, and a statement of the Government's intentions will be made in due course.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: In view of the high cost of these works and the fact that my right hon. Friend has not referred in his reply to any proposed electrification of any lines out of London, will he give an assurance that the electrification of certain lines will take place prior to the very heavy cost involved in the construction of tube railways?
    Mr. Barnes: Many of these electrification proposals are also involved. The whole scheme will require very careful consideration. I certainly cannot at present give any indication of priorities.
    Captain Crookshank: Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply now mean that there will be another enormous delay before any decisions are taken about the rebuilding of London?
    Mr. Barnes: I do not think it is a question of the rebuilding of London. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will read the answer which I have given, he will see that the British Transport Commission, the body now responsible, has immediately given very careful and detailed consideration to this Report, and the Minister and the Government are now in the position, having received the original London Plan Report and the observations of the Commission, to consider them jointly.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: Before final conclusions on the Report are reached by my right hon. Friend or the Government, will an opportunity be given to the respective communities to make their representations about the proposals?
    Mr. Barnes: I have not the slightest doubt that before that point is reached there will be great interest taken in many aspects of the Report, and that the views of properly constituted bodies will be taken into consideration.
    Mr. Gibson: In view of the importance of this Report on reconstruction plans in London, are we likely to have a relatively early decision on it?
    Mr. Barnes: I do not know what my hon. Friend means by "an early decision." A figure of £340 million represents a very big expenditure in view of the financial condition of the country, but I have indicated that all the preliminary work of investigation has been carried out and that it is now for the Government to decide in relation to the facts submitted.
    Sir Harold Webbe: Will consideration of this Report have the effect of suspending still further the Minister's decision in regard to the main traffic arteries in London on which some action is urgently needed?
    Mr. Barnes: It depends what the hon. Member means by "main traffic arteries." They can be roads or railways.
    Captain Crookshank: Are we to understand from the Minister's reply that the Government have no idea of what the meaning of "an early decision" is?
    Mr. Barnes: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman should not understand anything of the kind. In view of his own financial experience, I suggest that he should appreciate the necessity of expenditure of this description receiving the careful consideration of the Government, and we shall not be deflected from that consideration.

    Consultative Committee, London
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Transport when he expects that the Transport Consultative Committee for the

    1785
    London area will be set up; and what bodies he proposes to consult to nominate members to this committee.
    Mr. Barnes: I have invited bodies representing the appropriate interests to submit nominations from which I can choose members for the Transport Users Consultative Committee for London. With the hon. Member's permission I propose to circulate a list of the bodies in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Are the interests of outer London to be represented on this body, and particularly the western outskirts of London?
    Mr. Barnes: if my hon. Friend will look at the list which will be circulated in HANSARD tomorrow, he will be able to see the bodies which are being consulted.
    Mr. Keeling: When the Minister says "London," does he mean London or the London Transport area?
    Mr. Barnes: The London Transport area.
    Following is the list:
    Association of British Chamber of Commerce, London Chamber of Commerce, Parliamentary Committee of the Co-operative Congress, Federation of British Industries, National Union of Manufacturers, Trades Union Congress (two members), General Council of British Shipping (two members), County Councils' Association (two members), London County Council, Common Council of the City of London, Association of Municipal Corporations.

    Road Accidents (Inquiries)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Transport how many inquiries into road accidents were held in 1948 under Section 23 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Callaghan): None, Sir. There was no accident during that year where such an inquiry seemed likely to afford any significant information beyond that available from reports by the police and the Department's technical officers.
    Mr. Keeling: Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that when Parliament put this Section into the Act it did not
    1786
    intend it to remain almost a dead letter? Does he not think that when an accident is exceptionally serious or presents any special features use should be made of this Section?
    Mr. Callaghan: When an accident presents new characteristics which are worthy of investigation this sort of inquiry is held, has been held and will be held in the future.

    Car Parking (Lights)
    Captain John Crowderasked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider introducing legislation to amend the existing law regarding the parking of cars without lights in well-lighted streets.
    Mr. Barnes: My present view is that the power to exempt vehicles from carrying lights is rightly restricted to those standing or parked in places specially set aside for the purpose.
    Captain Crowder: Is the Minister aware that the Home Secretary did not seem to have that opinion when he answered a good many Questions last March and previously in this House; and that the special committee of the R.A.C. and A.A. recommend that legislation should be introduced by the Minister of Transport as soon as possible.
    Mr. Barnes: I certainly do not agree that the Home Secretary's reply indicated a different view from my own. It really comes down to the fact that the experience of the police should be the determining factor in this matter.

    Goods Vehicles (Regulations)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that many "A" and "B" Licence holders are unaware of the regulations requiring them to apply for original permits before the end of July; and if, in view of the importance of this matter to the operators, he will instruct licensing authorities to inform all licence holders individually.
    Mr. Barnes: No, Sir. As I indicated in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) on 27th June, these regulations have already received wide publicity and I propose to take steps during July to remind hauliers of their effect. In the circumstances I do

    1787
    not consider that the sending of individual notices to some 60,000 hauliers is necessary or would be justified.
    Mr. Gammans: What steps does the Minister propose to take in July to remind hauliers?
    Mr. Barnes: This matter was fully publicised at the time of the passing of the Transport Act and since. We intend to repeat all those processes during July, but in view of the circumstances of the last two or three years I cannot for one moment conceive that there is any haulier in this country who is not aware of this situation.

    Hyde Park Corner (Congestion)
    Colonel Dowerasked the Minister of Transport what steps he proposes to take in the near future to relieve the congestion of traffic at the bottleneck by the Artillery Memorial at Hyde Park Corner.
    Mr. Barnes: Traffic difficulties at this point can only be overcome by considerable road alterations. Proposals for such alterations are under consideration, but works of the magnitude involved cannot be carried out until economic conditions improve. I know of no immediate measures which are likely to be helpful.
    Colonel Dower: In view of the fact that there is a considerable amount of spare ground there which neither pedestrians nor traffic use, and in view of the large number of minor accidents which are occurring, is it not possible for some temporary diversion to be made to overcome the difficulty while major policy is being decided?
    Mr. Barnes: This is such an exceptionally heavy traffic point that I am afraid that no temporary measures can meet the situation. It really requires the complete reorganisation of that traffic area.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Tudor Freighters (Price)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Supply for whom has he ordered the 10 Tudor freighters; and whether the price has yet been agreed with that customer.
    The Minister of Supply (Mr. G. R. Strauss): The order has been placed on behalf of the Ministry of Civil Aviation, who will reimburse the cost to my Department. The price has not yet been finally agreed.
    Mr. Beswick: Can my right hon. Friend say how the price will be determined? Is it to be on a cost-plus basis?
    Mr. Strauss: Negotiations are proceeding, and I am afraid that I cannot add anything at the moment.

    Brabazon Aircraft (Trials)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Supply if he will make a statement about the approximate date on which it is expected that the Brabazon I will make its first flight trials.
    Mr. G. R. Strauss: It is always difficult to forecast when flight trials of a new aircraft will take place, but it is hoped that the Brabazon I will make its first flight within a few months.

    Hermes Aircraft (Delivery)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Supply what was the original agreed date for the delivery of Hermes aircraft; and by what date delivery is now expected to be completed.
    Mr. G. R. Strauss: It was originally hoped that these aircraft would be delivered by June, 1949, but according to present estimates all the aircraft should be delivered by early next year.
    Mr. Beswick: I wonder whether my right hon. Friend heard the remark of Sir Frederick Handley Page, at the end of his reply to a toast at the Grosvenor Hotel, when he said, "To hell with Government planners"? Are we to understand that delay in the delivery of these aircraft is due to Government planning or private enterprise?
    Mr. Strauss: I think that the remark was made in the course of one of Sir Frederick's witty after-dinner speeches. I do not think it should be taken too seriously. Unfortunately, all new aircraft are late in delivery, whether in this country or elsewhere. I do not think that the fault can be placed on Government planning, at all events.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is the Minister aware that his remark will be very much

    1789
    welcomed, because the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, in a speech which was neither witty nor after-dinner, blamed the Handley-Page factory for that delay? The statement of the Minister of Supply, who knows more, will be received with great pleasure.
    Mr. Strauss: All I said was that the Government were not responsible for the delay.
    Mr. Beswick: Referring again to that remark, may I ask if the cost of dining those 400 people at the Grosvenor Hotel will be included in the price of the aircraft?
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister aware that the American Stratocruisers ordered by his Department are also a year late, and will he in the meantime give Sir Frederick Handley Page every encouragement?
    Mr. Strauss: The Stratocruisers are over two years late.

  STRIKE, LONDON DOCKS
  Mr. R. A. Butler(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether he can make a statement on the position of the strike in the London Docks.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): The number of men on strike this morning totals 8,336. Eighty-eight ships are idle, and eight are under-manned. Of the idle ships, 30 are food ships. The question of safeguarding these food supplies is being closely watched. This strike is hurting the country and the men cannot escape their responsibility for causing this hurt by saying there is a lock-out. As I pointed out on Friday last, the men are in breach of their agreements and of the provisions of the Dock Labour Scheme and it is nothing but Communist manoeuvre to pretend that there is any other explanation of the position. If the men wish to show their loyalty to their own trade union and to trade unionism and to fulfil their obligations to the country, they should resume full normal working at once in accordance with the advice of their accredited trade union leaders. There is no other alternative. The men must realise that by their present conduct they may be
  1790
  imperilling the future of the Dock Labour Scheme and are certainly damaging the economic position of the country.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House support his view that this strike is hurting the country, and that every attempt must be made to back trade union leaders and orthodox methods of collective bargaining? Is it the intention of the Government to inquire into or act upon the information furnished by certain hon. Members of this House in regard to Communist activities behind this strike? May I further ask whether the Minister can reassure us that, as a result of the efforts which the Government will make to clear the ships in question, very little or no food is likely to be wasted?
  Mr. Isaacs: As to the investigations into the action behind the strike, this matter is—and has been over some little time now—having the attention of the Government, and inquiries are proceeding. With reference to the food supplies, we are keeping that matter under daily consideration, and I can assure the House that every step will be taken to ensure that no food is lost to the community.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Is not the Minister aware that, though what he has said is perfectly agreed by everyone, it does lack a sense of urgency, which has not yet penetrated to the men, who do not seem to realise that this is stabbing this country in the back at a most serious moment? Can he not raise the temperature of his pressure and make them understand the folly of their misguided act and of being misled by the Communists?
  Mr. Isaacs: The hon. Member has not had any dealings in handling dockers or other workers of this kind. Pressure has been continual, and I must say, with all credit to them, that trade union officials of high and low rank have done their best in that area to show the men where they are wrong. It may be that a jolly good shower of rain might do more to settle this strike than anything else.
  Mr. Platts-Mills: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, and every hon. Member in this House knows, the men are prepared to work every one of the ships in the docks, except the two Canadian ships that are "black." No one is stopping them working those ships except the

  1791
  Dock Labour Board and the Minister. Why will he persist in trying to provoke the situation and calling this a strike, when everyone can see that it is a plain old-fashioned bosses' lockout? Will not he appreciate, as the special agent for Rotherhithe knows perfectly well that the men would be quite happy to work the ships if only the Minister will show—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must obey the rules which govern Questions. Questions should not be put to convey a particular point of view, and that is what the hon. Member was doing.
  Mr. Platts-Mills: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I did understand that in matters of this nature one is entitled to go a little beyond the normal, rather rigid Rules for putting a Question. If I was wrong—
  Mr. Speaker: One does not go outside the Rules on Questions in these matters.
  Mr. Mellish: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for an hon. Member to call another hon. Member a "special agent," when the hon. Member to whom he refers is only trying to do his duty to the country and the dockers he represents?
  Mr. Speaker: These provocative and offensive statements are always to be deprecated.
  Mr. Platts-Mills: May I say that the phrase I was using is the phrase by which the hon. Member is described in Rotherhithe? I did not mean to use the phrase "special agent."
  Mr. George Jeger: Will the Minister state, as a result of his investigations, what are the conditions or terms of re-engagement offered to the Canadian crews, and whether he has any evidence that their contention that those terms have been broken is either true or false?
  Mr. Isaacs: All I can say about that, without entering into the merits or demerits, is that I am assured that the undertaking given by the captain of the "Beaverbrae" to his own crew has been maintained 100 per cent. There is no deviation from it, and any story to the contrary by other "special agents" who are in this country is wholly untrue.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: In view of the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman
  1792
  that investigations or inquiries are going on into the information given by hon. Members of this House, can he give us an assurance that he will publish the results of any such inquiries, or in some way inform the House at the earliest possible date?
  Mr. Mellish: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. As one of the Members of Parliament involved, may I say that this matter has been referred to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who is dealing with this matter, and not to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
  Sir W. Smithers: In view of the mortal danger to this country, may I ask the Minister what is the good of the Prime Minister making mild speeches in Manchester, and what is the good of the Minister of Labour making these mild speeches in the House? It is deeds and not words that we want to save the country.
  Mr. Isaacs: I agree with the hon. Member that it is deeds that we want and not words. We want the men to get back to work. With reference to the question from the right hon. Gentleman about publication, whatever evidence we can get which we can disseminate among our people to show how they are being treated in this matter will be published.
  Mr. Piratin: Will not the Minister admit that the issue is a simple one, namely, that the dock workers are locked out because they have refused to work merely one boat calling on some three dozen workers; and that they have been prepared to work on any other boat? Will he also acknowledge that in the case of certain food boats they have worked them and the money they have earned has gone to the Manor House Hospital? Will he also say whether he or any other Minister encourages Labour Members of Parliament to be stool-pigeons?
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Mr. Speaker: What was that last word? I did not quite catch the last word used by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Piratin: I said "stool-pigeons."
  Mr. Speaker: I think that is a most unworthy accusation. I direct the hon. Member to withdraw that unworthy imputation at once.
  Mr. Piratin: On your guidance, Sir, I am prepared to withdraw wholeheartedly; but I must say—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I have withdrawn on your guidance, Mr. Speaker, but further to that, on a point of Order, I distinctly asked the Minister, in general hypothetical terms, whether he encouraged such action. I made no reference to any hon. Member. I accept your Ruling and therefore I have withdrawn, but I made no reference to any hon. Member. I merely asked whether, hypothetically, the Minister encourages such an action?
  Mr. Isaacs: There is one point which emerges from that statement which I think I should deal with, and that is the repeated allegations that this is a lockout. This is not a lockout. The men have entered into a contract under the Dock Labour Scheme to be available for work when required, and when they say, "We will not go to work unless you do something," those men are striking, and are not locked out.

  INTRA-EUROPEAN PAYMENTS SCHEME
  Mr. R. A. Butler(by Private Notice) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can make a statement on the recent discussions in Paris.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps): I am glad to be able to tell the House that, as a result of the discussions which took place in Paris last week, agreement has now been reached on the principles of the Intra-European Payments Scheme for 1949–50.
  We had proposed to the Consultative Committee at their meeting in May a scheme whereby there should be a big step forward in the direction of a wider and less restricted system of trade in Europe and a payments scheme which would match this extension of trade by making the credits granted under the Intra-European Payments Scheme freely transferable into any European currency. The condition of such a payments scheme was that Belgium should be put in a position to grant drawing rights and credits sufficient to cover the whole of her anticipated European surplus.
  Agreement was reached in principle at the May meeting as to the removal of
  1794
  restrictions to European trade, subject to certain international obligations in the field of trade policy with countries outside Europe, and subject to a reservation that such development of European trade would not entail a cost to any of the participants in gold or dollars. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade will make an early statement as to the details of this scheme. The second reservation I have mentioned was closely connected with the question of covering the Belgian surplus and the form of the intra-European payments scheme.
  It was not possible to arrive at an agreement on these latter matters in May, nor could any agreement be worked out at Paris by the experts, or later at the meeting which I attended at Brussels. These meetings, however, served to clarify the issues, and to limit the area of difference.
  By the time of the Brussels meeting a proposal had been formulated whereby, to secure greater freedom of payments, 40 per cent. of the grants made by one country to another under the Payments Scheme should in future be freely transferable, that is to say, they could be used for payments not merely to the creditor making the grant, but to any other member of the Scheme. If they were so transferred, it was proposed that an equal amount of conditional aid dollars should be taken away from the original creditor and be transferred to the country with whom the credits were, in fact, spent. Part, also, of the grants was to be convertible, that is to say, could be turned into dollars and spent on American goods.
  These grants of drawing rights under the Payments Scheme are based on estimates, made at the beginning of the year, of the balance of payments between the two countries concerned. These estimates can, by their very nature, be only approximate. Nevertheless, a part of the dollar aid which any country receives under E.R.P., equal to the amount of all the grants that it gives under the Payments Scheme, is known as "conditional aid," that is, it is not firmly or finally allocated until the credit has been taken up.
  We took strong objection to this scheme for the transfer of conditional aid and the convertibility of drawing rights, because the country making grants, that is, the creditor country might well be open to the loss of dollars not because it

  1795
  had in any way failed to provide goods on which the grant could be spent but merely because the estimate on which those grants had been based was shown by the facts to be wrong.
  But our major objection was one of principle, namely that such an arrangement would have a very restrictive effect upon European trade. The creditor countries would have had to cut down their grants in order to make sure that they were spent on their own goods; and, having made them, the creditor would restrict his purchases from the debtor country so that it would be short of the creditor's currency and thus be more certain to use up all the credit granted for purchases from the creditor. Indeed, it is obvious that the introduction of any further gold or dollar element into intra-European payments is bound to be restrictive in its effect on trade.
  We further pointed out that, in the present condition of our gold and dollar reserves, it was not possible for us to accept any considerable risk of gold and dollar losses under the European Payments Scheme, and that if that Scheme were intended to expand and not to restrict trade the risk of loss must not be so great as to lead creditors to restrict trade in order to protect themselves from loss of dollars.
  On the other hand, it was urged that an arrangement of this kind was essential if there was to be real freedom of competition in Europe, and that the grants would not in practice be freely transferred unless the dollar aid in return for which they were granted went with them.
  As a result of the discussions at Brussels, it was agreed to eliminate the element of convertibility of any part of the credits into dollars, and progress was made towards working out an arrangement to cover the Belgian surplus. There remained to be dealt with at Paris the question of the transferability of European credits and conditional aid in the Intra-European Payments Scheme, and the completion of the arrangements as to the Belgian surplus.
  M. Spaak, on behalf of Belgium, was most helpful, and as a result of his offer to grant a very considerable credit in Belgian francs, we were able to settle the matter of the Belgian surplus. There-
  1796
  after the problem of the transferability of conditional aid became easier of solution and, finally, the matter was agreed upon the following lines:
  The making of any part of the grants convertible into dollars, as I have said, was dropped. It was further agreed that not more than 25 per cent. of the grants should be transferable. It is our hope that, by thus limiting the amount of conditional dollar aid which can change hands, we shall avoid any serious restrictive effect, since the risk for the countries taking part should be outweighed by the advantages which they will gain from expanding trade with their European partners in a more fully competitive system. It was also provided that the working of the Scheme should be kept under constant review. For instance, we should expect to see a revision of the grants made from time to time if it should be found that errors in the calculations had been made, or if such revision were necessary to avoid special hardship to any particular credits.
  Belgium has a surplus in her trade in Europe which is calculated to be more than twice as large as her dollar deficit. Last year, the dollar aid given to her was limited to the amount of her dollar deficit, though more than four-fifths of it was conditional aid. In consequence, the counterpart of the conditional aid which was available for granting drawing rights to other countries was not large enough to cover her surplus in Europe. If this arrangement had continued this year, there would obviously have been a strong tendency for this gap to be filled by the use of transferable drawing rights granted by other creditors, with the result that they would have lost dollars to Belgium.
  It was therefore agreed to increase the amount of dollar aid to be given to Belgium for the year 1949–50. She will receive 312½ million dollars, against an estimated dollar deficit with the Western Hemisphere of 200 million dollars. In return, she has agreed—in order to help to make a compromise possible—not only to make grants available to that amount, but also to extend long-term credits to some of her principal debtors amounting to 87½ million dollars.
  The terms of these loans will be the same as those of the loans granted under the European Recovery Programme. In this way, Belgium's debtors, of whom we

  1797
  are one, should have enough of her currency to buy from her without loss of gold or dollars, and without being under strong pressure to use for that purpose the grants made to them by other countries.
  As a further step to assist in the working of the scheme, the Belgians offered that grants should cease to be transferable to Belgium if at any time she should have received as much as 40 million dollars from other creditors as a result of such transfers.
  This agreement, which I regard as a great achievement of European co-operation, will, I hope, serve to develop European trade and recovery. It could not have been reached except in a spirit of compromise and goodwill, and I should like to pay tribute to the part played in our discussions by my friends, M. Spaak, M. Petsche and Mr. Harriman, who helped so greatly in guiding the Council to their final decision.
  Mr. Butler: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House should like to support his last statement and express our appreciation of the initiative taken by the three gentlemen whom he has mentioned in the discussions which have just taken place? Further, is he aware that we sincerely value the reaching of an agreement upon the Intra-European Payments Scheme? In particular, may I ask when the President of the Board of Trade will make a statement upon what I might call the longer-term issue, that is, the freeing and widening of European trade? May I ask also whether he realises that we consider that the success of such an agreement as he made recently in Paris will be tested by its ultimate result in this wider purpose? Does he also realise that since, as I understand it, he is to make a broader statement later this week on the economic position, we do not desire to press questions about the effect on the economic situation in this country on the occasion of this statement today?
  Sir S. Cripps: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I am sure that those to whom I expressed my gratitude will also be grateful to him for his expression of gratitude to them. I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will make a statement later this week. I am not quite
  1798
  certain when it can be, because they are discussing today in Paris in the Council at the official level a resolution which was sent from the Consultative Committee on the expansion of European trade. We shall have to await the end of that discussion before we can actually make a statement.
  Mr. Clement Davies: May I also add to what the Chancellor has said in thanking his colleagues for the way in which they helped in arriving at agreement, and also thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself for the part he played? We are very glad indeed that agreement has been arrived at, but we realise that the statement which he has made will require more time to consider in detail. While we realise that the President of the Board of Trade will be making a statement later, may I ask if it will be possible for the Chancellor himself, before this Session closes—and there are not many days to go now—to review the general economic position and provide time for the Debate upon that matter, because our position at present is one which certainly calls for a very frank and full statement and is causing a good deal of anxiety at the present moment?
  Sir S. Cripps: I shall be making another statement on the broader issues in the course of this week, and any question of a Debate on that subject had better go through the usual channels.
  Mr. Eden: Perhaps I may be allowed to say, in relation to what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just said, that we do not intend to ask any questions today or until after Wednesday's statement, but it will be our intention to give some of our time to ensure a full discussion before the House rises.
  Mr. Warbey: While congratulating my right hon. and learned Friend on his firm stand taken in defence of this country's economic interests, may I ask whether, in considering any representations from the American or Belgian Governments for an extension of multilateral and competitive trade, he has drawn the attention of those Governments to the obligations which they assumed under the Havana Charter to maintain full employment in their countries?
  Sir S. Cripps: I think that everybody who was present at the discussions which we had, which went on for a long time, is quite conscious of that.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he would agree that our real difficulty in entering a competitive system in Europe is practical rather than technical; namely, the inroads on the competitive system at home as a result of which we are not producing enough goods at a price which people can pay?
  Sir S. Cripps: I think that, broadly speaking, our prices are very competitive with other European prices, and we shall welcome a degree of competition being introduced into European trade, where it can well be tolerated under existing conditions and could stimulate some of our manufacturers to greater efforts.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: May I ask the Chancellor whether, in view of the fact that this situation arose largely because of difficulties between estimated and actual trade, which is one of the major contributory causes of the very big leak of dollars that is occurring in the sterling area, the President of the Board of Trade, when he makes his statement later this week, will bring that very important factor into account?
  Sir S. Cripps: That factor does not come into the consideration of these
  1800
  matters. We are considering intra-European payments, not dollar payments.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: May I ask the Chancellor if he can explain a fact which puzzles many of us? Why is it that Belgium should be so prosperous and that we should be in such difficulties, and can the right hon. and learned Gentleman find out from M. Spaak the recipe for how to be prosperous though Socialist?
  Sir S. Cripps: I am not quite sure that M. Spaak would not agree with me more than with some others.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that everyone on this side of the House, and, I think, in the House as a whole, has every confidence in his great ability, thanks him very much for what he has done at Brussels, and wishes him well for the future in the difficult negotiations which he has to tackle?
  Sir W. Smithers: May I express the hope that the Chancellor and the House will realise, after that long statement, which requires further consideration, that it is only a stop-gap and does not go to the root of the matter? Is he aware that we are faced with a similar crisis to that of 1931, and that the only remedy is to produce goods and services at world competitive prices or face starvation?

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [19TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1949–50
  Motion made, and Question proposed:
  "That a further sum, not exceeding £40, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services connected with Housing for the year ending on the 31st March 1950, namely:

  £

  Class V., Vote 1, Ministry of Health

  10

  Class V., Vote 5, Ministry of Labour and National Service

  10

  Class VII., Vote 1, Ministry of Works

  10

  Class IX., Vote 1, Ministry of Supply

  10

  Total

  £40"

  —[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]

  HOUSING
  3.56 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The subject which we are to discuss and the aspects of it which we are to consider today are, in fact, closely bound up with the general situation on which a statement has just been made—the proper employment of the manpower of this country. We have indicated to the Minister that we desire to review the Housing Vote today with special reference to manpower; that is to say, the houses completed as compared with the labour employed, for these figures cover to a great extent the speed of construction and also have a great bearing on costs, and these are the points at which the housing programme actually comes into touch with the consuming public.
  The Government's programme seems to be settling down at 230,000 houses per annum, of which something like 25,000 will be built in Scotland and the rest in England and Wales. This may be an over-estimate, and I should be glad if the Minister can give us a forecast for this year's out-turn, because half the year has already gone. Is it likely for England and Wales to be more or less than, say, 205,000? Whatever the figure may be, it will be substantially less than pre-war. To take the pre-war figures for Great Britain, in 1933–39, the rate was 340,000
  1802
  a year, and for the two pre-war years 364,000 per year. Obviously, therefore, there is a great need for a substantial rise in houses built in this country, and the only question before us is how far, and in what way, can this be done.
  Mr. Thomas Reid: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman allow me? He is giving us comparative figures. Would he give us fairer comparative figures and tell us the number of houses built in the fourth year after the first war?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I am perfectly willing if I may make my speech in my own way, to deal with that point. This is a serious point, and I beg the hon. Gentleman to contain his desire to rush to the assistance of his right hon. Friend, who, frankly, is in no need of his assistance. We wish to take the Minister in his most formidable form and on his most important actions, and these are his actions as Minister of Housing.
  I would ask the Committee, and particularly the hon. Gentleman who interrupted me, to note that the deployment of manpower is exactly the same for the smaller output as for the larger. In 1937–38, there were, roughly speaking, an average of 1,042,000 men employed, and, in 1947–48, 1,036,000, and that is the important figure. In fact, I think these figures are more favourable to the present situation than appears on the surface. The pre-war figures included Northern Ireland, and I think they also included those registered in the industry, whereas the post-war figures, so far as I can ascertain, include only those actually employed. At any rate, the broad figure remains.
  We had in 1937 and 1938 a million men plus employed, and in 1947–48 we also had a million men plus employed, yet we had an output of houses which was anything from 100,000 to 130,000 a year fewer. It may be said that this is only a global figure of building labour, that we had a war and that we have had a great deal of repairs to carry through. Let us look at that argument. The operatives employed before the war for new housing, in June, 1947, to be specific, were 240,000. That is a ratio of 33 per cent. housing to non-housing. In June, 1948, mid-summer in both cases, there were 244,600, which is a ratio of 32 per cent. housing to non-housing. We have

  1803
  only estimates for the non-housing and housing figures in relation to operatives before the war, but these estimates show that in mid-1936 there was 35 per cent. of the labour force employed on new housing, as against other activities, and in mid-1938 there was 30 per cent. In both cases, therefore, both pre-war and post-war, the figure ranges around one-third on new housing and two-thirds on non-housing, so that there is no explanation of the lesser out-turn of houses in that figure.
  The Minister is wont to put to us the dilemma, "If you want more houses do you want me to cut down hospitals or schools?" But the force which is now deployed was giving before the war a large output of schools, hospitals, factories and other buildings. According to the OFFICIAL REPORT of 19th May this year, there was a pre-war delivery of schools of the order of £4 million per annum at pre-war prices. The figures for pre-war hospital construction are not readily available, but we have only to go a few hundred yards from this House and look, for instance, at Westminster Hospital or go to Leeds and look at Leeds Hospital to see examples of what was being done. In fact, the Economic Survey states that hospital building since the war has been at a minimum, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would be only too willing to admit that.
  Let us take another angle on this question, the angle of expenditure. If one reads the Oxford Economic Papers by Professor Bowen, one finds that they show that, taking the figures of expenditure, in addition to the erection of 340,000 houses, non-housing work to the extent of 2½ times was done in 1935–38—a figure of, say, £400 million at pre-war prices. The volume of non-housing work done since the war, estimated by the same authorities, is, £374 million at post-war prices, a very considerable lower figure; and that is a figure which includes war damage repairs, conversions, the repair and maintenance of fabrics and structures, and the rest.
  The Minister contends that this argument can be countered in two ways—first, that this enormous number of houses which were built before the war were built for sale and not to rent, and furthermore that the houses now being built
  1804
  are superior to the houses built before the war. The Minister said that they were superior and slightly larger, and there is a slightly increased amount of equipment. We had a Debate on costs a year ago, and I conceded those points. I do not want to run away from any of these arguments, because they are of the greatest importance to every individual in the country.
  Let us take the argument relating to houses for sale and not to let, and, secondly, the argument of the greater cost due to better equipment and the larger size of rooms. I do not think the argument about houses being built for sale as against letting disposes of the enormous advantage to the whole house hunting community of an extra 145,000 houses per year and more added to the housing pool. These are all houses which were added in exactly the field in which they were most needed. Ninety per cent. of all the four million houses built between the wars were of a rateable value below £26 a year or £35 in Greater London. Even on the argument of lettings as against sale, it is common knowledge that by various means, such as the building societies, the weekly payments for these houses were quite comparable to weekly rents, and in addition they were saleable assets which were easily disposed of and were disposed of when the vendors desired to move from one house to another.
  In fact, the argument in relation to houses for sale as against houses to let is met by these additions to the housing pool, and they were of the greatest advantage to the people in the country, for a man moving into another house does not burn down the house from which he moves; he leaves the house in vacant possession—perhaps the most desirable of all things at the moment, and a thing which every Minister of Health would desire to see increase in large numbers.
  Then there is the argument of the more commodious nature of the present houses. The London County Council reported in 1948 that with a rise from £543 pre-war to £1,819 in December, 1948, only £252 is accounted for by the larger size and the better equipment. That is the London County Council, a body to which right hon. Gentlemen opposite attach great importance. That relates to council houses. I do not think it will be denied

  1805
  that many of the pre-war privately ordered houses were quite up to the present local authority standards. The Minister cannot have it both ways—first, that these were among houses built for the idle rich, and secondly, that they were of a vastly inferior standard to the standard of the local authority houses.
  The Minister has two other arguments with which I think it is desirable to deal. First of all, there is the argument about the war. That argument was brought up by an hon. Friend of his who seemed uneasy about the enormous out-turn of houses which was being secured by the Conservative Governments before the war. The second argument of the Minister was, "We are doing better than anybody else." Let me take the war argument. In 1918 the post-war Governments had to work up housing from the rate of 64,000 houses a year to which it had been allowed to drop in 1910–15 by the then Liberal-Labour Coalition—[Laughter.] It is an odd thing that whenever the Labour Party gets hold of houses, it reduces them from what the Tory Government were previously doing. Many hon. Members opposite seem to doubt this. Before that war the figures produced by the Tory Government were 131,000 a year. That was in 1900–5 after which the Liberal-Labour Coalition brought it down to 64,000. That was partly due to their innate stupidity and partly to their attempt to exact development charges, which they are starting upon again and which is likely to have not an unnaturally similar result upon the output of houses.
  This time the Government took over from a pre-war Government which had been turning out 300,000 houses a year more than that, and they took over from an industry which had been the object of intense preparatory work by the war Government as well. I do not need to go further than to quote the Girdwood Report on that. In any case, arguments about 1910, 1915 and 1918 do not answer our main charge. Why are a million men, post-war, being so deployed as to produce less of all their produce than pre-war? It is not accepted in the case of agriculture; it is not accepted in the case of steel; it is not even accepted in the case of the nationalised industries. Nothing would annoy the Minister of Fuel and Power more than a suggestion
  1806
  that he should be content with output in the pits substantially less than the output per man pre-war. Why should it be accepted for this great primary industry of housing? It is having a disastrous effect not merely on speed but on costs.
  We had a word upon costs last year and the Minister, in a winding-up speech which everybody enjoyed, could not say any more in answer to the Debate than that other things had gone up too and some of them had gone up more. That was, in fact, not merely the gist but the whole of his answer. That is an argument for a better deployment of labour, not a worse. We have had the Girdwood Committee's Report, which gave £1,242 for the post-war house as against £380 for the pre-war house. Allowing £328 for improvements—that is the figure which the Girdwood Committee gives—that is still £534 above pre-war.
  I have spoken already of the report of the London County Council on present housing costs, but it is worth while stressing their report because it is a later report than that of the Girdwood Committee. Will the Committee believe that that report shows that a typical L.C.C. house costs, inclusive of roads and sewers, of course, £1,819 in December, 1948, as against £543 pre-war? Deduct the £252 for the larger size and better equipment, and that still leaves the house at £1,567 as against £540 pre-war—that is to say, £1,000 more.
  These figures are, of course, inevitably producing a corresponding steepening of rent. Local authorities are continually having to do exactly what the Minister of Health keeps passing Bills in this House to prevent anyone else doing—to put up rents. The Acton rents are 1s. 6d. to 2s. 1d. a week up, Tottenham 1s. 10d. up, Wood Green 1s. 6d. to 3s. 10d. up, Finchley 1s. 10d. to 3s. 6d. up, Folkestone 6s. up, Bristol 6s. up, West Ham 10s. 5d. up, and Portsmouth 12s. 6d. up.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): Are these averages?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: These are figures by which rents have been raised. I do not suggest that they are averages. Does the Minister really ask us to believe that Portsmouth could raise all rents by 12s. 6d. per house without producing a good deal of trouble and possibly stopping the victory parade?
  Mr. Bevan: It is much more honest to give the whole range of increases than pick out increases which may relate to a very small number of houses.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: When it comes to honesty, I am perfectly willing to put my political honesty against that of the right hon. Gentleman. We shall each have to stand our trial and I am perfectly willing to stand in the dock alongside the right hon. Gentleman. The Committee will note, however, that the right hon. Gentleman does not deny that these increases have been made. He does not deny that if any private individual tried to raise rents by one-tenth of those figures the Minister would have him brought before the courts and have him hanged, drawn and quartered.
  Mr. Bevan: How violent!
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Again, on a question of violence, I am perfectly willing to put my record against that of the right hon. Gentleman. If we have to stand in the dock together, I will average out my statements against his and I think I could probably come in at a lower figure.
  All this is producing not merely speeches in this House but vehement representations from local authorities, as the right hon. Gentleman and, indeed, every hon. Member in this House knows. The subsidies which were originally announced are far below the deficits which were originally estimated. The charges on a £1,400 house are not £26 a year, which they would be on a £1,100 house, but £63 a year, and the London County Council is now making a rate contribution not of £5 10s. per house, as the Bill provides, but £23 10s. a house; and this, of course, leads local authorities to ask for more. The Minister has just reported upon this. In a document ordered by the House of Commons to be printed on 27th June, 1949, the Minister says:
  "The available information indicates that the cost of repairs, maintenance and management will be higher than was originally estimated and that there has been since the date of the last review a slight increase in tender prices for the 950 sq. ft. standard house."
  The Minister says, optimistically:
  "On the other hand, tender prices for these houses have now remained steady for some
  1808
  months and there are grounds for believing that they will tend to decline."
  That may be: everything else may be going up and these things may be about to go down, but the Minister admits that up till now they have gone up and he says:
  "The prices of certain materials have already fallen and there are definite signs of increased productivity"
  —and I will give him that, for I am anxious not to shirk any of the strength of the argument which he can bring forward. The Minister concludes:
  "After a review of all the circumstances the Minister has come to the conclusion that he would not at the present time be justified in making an Order reducing the level of contributions and he has decided that they should remain as at present.…"
  That means that the Minister is not going to foot the bill and, unless a diminution in the cost of houses can be obtained in some other way, either we are faced with an indefinite maintenance of these very high costs and these inevitably very high rents, or else there will have to be a very large rate contribution, far larger than the bill provides, to clear off the deficit. The resultant pressure is, of course, naturally against housing. The rent level anticipated for the latest L.C.C. blocks of flats, inclusive of rates, runs from 17s. 9d. to 23s. 3d. a week for a three-roomed house and from 21s. 3d. to 26s. 6d. for a four-roomed house. These are very high rents.
  Mr. Bevan: Inclusive of rates?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: As I said, they are inclusive of rates, but perhaps the Minister's attention was diverted at the time. Certainly I would not in any way attempt to diminish the weight of my argument by any fallacious interjection of figures. The argument, heaven knows, is quite strong enough.
  Meanwhile, the waiting lists are enormous, and with an output of houses 140,000 a year less than before the war that is not astonishing. Mr. B. S. Townroe estimated in a recent article in the "House Builder"—it was in May this year—that at the present rate of building it would take from 10 to 30 years even to meet the existing demand. He was an optimist compared with the hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. Yates) who said, on 16th March, that it would

  1809
  take more than 30 years for Birmingham even at double the present rate.
  The Minister has dealt with that also, for by recondite application of the higher mathematics, he proved to his own satisfaction—though I do not think to the satisfaction of anybody else in the Committee and certainly not of anybody on the waiting lists—that we now have more houses per head of the population than before the war and that we are now catching up on the number of houses becoming obsolescent. He achieved that result only by counting in the 150,000 houses which were completed during the war—which, of course, were done by Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Ernest Brown, and Mr. Harry Willink—and also by leaving out all the houses that became obsolescent during the war except those that actually could not be used any longer—so to speak, suspending the sinking fund of houses, not merely for the war years but for the peace years. He can only bring out the figures if he is reckoning that something like 20,000 or 25,000 houses a year become obsolescent in this country. If he thinks that, he is welcome to do so. It assumes a life of about 240 years for every house. I wish he could convince the Public Works Loans Board of that figure.
  A further argument he brings forward is that no nation in the world, in the war or out of the war, has been able to come near it. That depends entirely on what percentage of the labour force other countries are deploying in house building. But let us take two countries. Let us take one from the Old World and one from the New World. Let us take Sweden and the United States—because, remember, the Minister issued a challenge to the world; no country in the world, in the war or out of it, had been able to come near it, he said. Between 31st December, 1945, and 31st December, 1948, the United States completed, in addition to their temporary houses, one permanent house for every 67 citizens. We completed, also in addition to our temporary houses, one house for every 117 citizens, or, if we count in the temporaries, one to every 71.
  Mr. Bevan: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman know how the American lists are compiled?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Really, do the Americans know how our lists are compiled? The Minister was making a general assertion, which one can check only by taking the figures which are available. The Minister cannot invent these figures out of his head. He also must rely upon the figures which he obtains from friendly countries.
  Mr. Bevan: The Americans include in their lists trailers and vans.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: No, Sir.
  Mr. Bevan: Yes.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: No, no. These were in addition. These were their permanent houses. But we shall not say that Sweden includes trailers and vans. Or will the right hon. Gentleman? Does he suggest that in the Arctic wastes of Sweden, people, simply to confute the Minister's argument, go about living in biscuit tins and setting up caravans—in the midst of the primeval pine forests in the eternal night of the winter? No, Sir, Sweden may be expected to be reckoned pretty seriously in this, and Sweden built in 1946 and 1947 and 1948 certainly more than one house for every 50 citizens; and the figure may well be, according to whether we consider the output per head or not, nearer to one to every 25—but certainly more than one for every 50. These comparisons are, of course, quite inconclusive. At the end of the day we can only compare Britain with Britain.
  How are we doing? The index of output which I have been able to get hold of as far as possible, out of the Interim Index of Industrial Production, for building in 1948 is 120. That is, by doubling the figure for the first six months. Perhaps, the Minister could indicate whether that is an accurate figure or not. I am giving him the full benefit of the doubt, because that shows a rise from 1946 and 1947. But while that figure today is something of the order of 120 the output in 1937 was 142; the output in 1938 was 143.
  What is the reason for these differences? Well, there was the very interesting report of the Harlow Development Corporation erecting the new town of Harlow. They allotted 65 of the first 100 of their houses to the people actually building the houses, and the clerk of the works reported that not merely the speed but the quality of the construction was very much improved.

  1811
  The Girdwood Report said quite categorically that in the last six months of 1947 local authority houses were taking 14.5 months to complete on the average, and private enterprise houses 11.2.
  How does the picture look pre-war and post-war? From October, 1937, to September, 1938—and these figures are the last pre-war figures, and for a year that is actually less favourable to private enterprise than the year before—the local authorities built 94,000 houses, and private enterprise built 265,000 houses, a total of 359,000. From October, 1947, to September, 1948, the local authorities built 216,000 houses—122,000 houses up; private enterprise—this is all part of the Minister's policy—built 39,332 which on balance, is 225,000 down. And for the same number of men.
  We are maintaining the same labour force to build this vastly smaller output of houses, in addition to putting out a much smaller volume of schools, of hospitals, and of repair works—as I have said, £400 million worth at pre-war prices and £374 million worth at post-war prices; a smaller amount. If ever one could point to a bad deployment of labour here it is. When the Girdwood Committee said that the local authority houses required twice as much labour and a third more material and three and a half times as much cost to build, they were pointing the way to the difficulty. The verdict is also given by the £1,800 house of the London County Council. The verdict is also given in the waiting lists. The verdict is given—and we on this side of the Committee have good reason to know—in the municipal and local authority elections, because, in spite of the Minister's arguments, no individual in this country believes that we are in a better housing position than we were before the war, and every individual is keenly aware of the terrible pressure which the housing shortage exercises just now upon the ordinary rank and file of the people of this country. We are perfectly capable of standing on our record. I was a Minister before the war, and I am perfectly willing—
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Hear, hear.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Yes. I am perfectly willing to stand on the record of
  1812
  365,000 houses a year against the Minister's record of 225,000—for a million men, exactly the same labour force as the right hon. Gentleman has.
  Mr. Stubbs: In the same time?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: In the same time, for the same number of men. We were able so to deploy that force as to produce 140,000 houses more—and schools and hospitals and repairs, which are so heavily in arrears just now. The million men of the building industry have clearly been deployed in a wrong formation, and have been launched at an objective which will take, according to hon. Members of this Committee and people elsewhere, 30 years to reach. That is only 10 years less than the children of Israel wandered in the desert of Sinai, but they had that imposed on them as a punishment. By the time they reached the Promised Land all the original ones were dead, and it was no consolation to them to know that Moses had, some time before, told them from a height that they were within sight of their promised objective.
  The further we remove the producer from the consumer the slower is the rate of housing. The closer we bring them together, the more rapid is the rate of housing. There is no reason whatever why, for instance, where a pool of private enterprise houses exists, it should not be available for local authorities who have exhausted their pool, as against other local authorities who have not. But a rise there ought to be, and a rise there can be with the labour force at present employed. Let the dog see the rabbit; let the householder see his own house. Give the British people the tools and let them finish the job. Unless we can have an affirmative answer to our request for a change of policy, we shall, of course, certainly divide the Committee.
  4.31 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): When I was told that the Opposition wished to discuss housing, the deployment of labour on housing, and housing costs, I was quite frankly surprised, and I am still surprised after having heard the opening speech, because for the very life of me I cannot understand the arguments of the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Univer-

  1813
  sities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), although he has been more than usually industrious in looking up the figures. I congratulate him upon that, and upon having made a speech which is rather an improvement on those we usually get from the Front Opposition Bench on the subject of housing. Nevertheless, although he has laboured very hard indeed, what he has brought forth will not, I think, give me much difficulty to refute.
  The first thing I would ask him—because the Committee knows that I am always seeking information from the Opposition on these occasions—is how he explains, if the housing needs of the country are of the order that he now says they are, the White Paper on Housing produced by the interim Government in 1945? It really is very perplexing. We are now told by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that it will take a very long time indeed to provide the number of houses which the country requires. As I have explained before, with my usual credulity I took what the last Government said was the housing need. This estimate was not made in 1940, 1941, 1942 or 1943; it was made when the war was coming to a close, and when all the facts were available. Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell me how it came about that when the last Government decided that 750,000 homes, including reoccupied war-damaged houses, were all that were required by Great Britain—
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Nonsense. The right hon. Gentleman really should not make these wild and foolish statements.
  Mr. Bevan: I am quoting from the White Paper—perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will get it from the Vote Office—Cmd. 6609, March, 1945. The objective stated in the White Paper was 750,000 dwellings to afford a separate dwelling to every family desiring it. Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman deny that?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Has the right hon. Gentleman totally failed to appreciate any of the long and careful arguments I advanced to the Committee about obsolesence?
  Mr. Bevan: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman deny that the target set to the nation and to the building in-
  1814
  dustry by the last Government in March, 1945, was the production of 750,000 dwellings, by which time they estimated that every family in the country desiring a separate home would have one? Does he deny it?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that any Government would say that at that point housing in this country should come to an end? The right hon. Gentleman must do his best to address himself to the serious argument, which I laid before the Committee. As he well knows, the first stage in any attack is not the last stage. We are now four years beyond that.
  Mr. Bevan: Let me assure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that there is not a single one of the arguments he advanced which I will not deal with faithfully before I sit down, and I hope he will appreciate the reply. What I want to know from him—and he will not answer—is how it comes about that such a modest target was set? He will not give me the answer; I will give it. The answer is, of course, that the Government based their estimate on the assumption, which they never disclosed, that they expected to have in Great Britain the same number of unemployed people as existed in 1939, and that, therefore, we would have a situation such as then existed when speculative builders were let loose on the country.
  The Tory Party, which has always held itself up as the patriotic party, boasts today of what the speculative builder did between 1926 and 1939 in the south and south-east of England. Go up any of the avenues leading from London and look at the monstrosities. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said that they built the houses where they were needed. Thousands of children are losing their lives because they were allowed to do so. The houses were strung along the highways. Children cannot obey the normal impulses of childhood without being murdered by the results of speculative builders. Can he deny that? Does he deny that it is much cheaper to build houses strung along the highway, because that is why they built them that way. It is much dearer to build houses off the highway in closes—
  Mr. Derek Walker-Smith Mr. Derek Walker-Smith (Hertford)rose—
  Mr. Bevan: I shall be a long time making my speech if there are all these interruptions.
  Mr. Walker-Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain which Minister and which Government introduced the restriction of ribbon development?
  Mr. Bevan: And what a rotten thing it was. Is the hon. Member boasting about that? I remember the miserable little thing going through the House, and the Minister who introduced it; I think it was Mr. Leslie Hore-Belisha. That poor little thing was almost murdered by the vested interests among the Opposition. Ribbon development, indeed! The hon. Gentleman should be ashamed to mention it. All it did was to put a little grass verge between the road and the houses; that is all. It was an improvement, we agree, but what a miserable little improvement. We now refuse permission for local authorities to string their houses along the highways, and we make them go back and build service roads for the housing estates. As a consequence, the houses are much more expensive.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has been making a comparison between how much it takes to build houses in the post-war world and how much it cost in the pre-war world. I would rather spend more public money on putting down more miles of drains and sewers for houses and more miles of roads in order to keep the children alive than cheapen the cost of houses and murder children. Which way does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman want it?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: It seems that the right hon. Gentleman will prolong his speech almost indefinitely. He is not answering any of the questions which have been put to him; he is not answering the fundamental point as to why the productivity of labour on house building, upon which the Girdwood Committee reported, is lower, and why one million men are building so many fewer houses.
  Mr. Bevan: Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will wait; I am approaching that point. I thought I was already giving one answer. If my memory serves me aright, the Girdwood Committee speaks about the cost of building the house within the curtilage;
  1816
  I am speaking about the overall cost of building, comparing it with the overall cost of the house before the war. If, instead of taking advantage of the highway, and of stringing sewers and houses along main roads, one goes off the highway and builds more services, taking the roads and sewers longer distances, it is obvious that the house will cost more. Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman concede that? If it does cost more, does he agree that it is a good thing for Great Britain to bear that additional cost rather than exposing children to the risk of being murdered on the roads? That is all I was asking. Apparently we have finished with the item of additional cost. The Opposition accept that.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered—
  Mr. Bevan: I am coming to the other points. Apparently that one is accepted, so we are making progress; that one has gone. I am coming to the comparison of costs in a moment. There is an old German adage which says that to understand is not necessarily to leave behind, and I therefore wish to bring the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's mind to the fact that if much more equipment is put into a house, the house will cost more. We are putting into the modern house equipment costing very nearly £200—built-in cupboards, and conveniences of that kind. It is fair to set off against rent the amount of additional capital put into the house by way of modern gadgets and conveniences. If that is done there has been a very modest increase indeed compared with the additional value being put into the house. That answers another of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's arguments. I am now about to deal with his main point.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot Lieut.-Colonel Elliot rose—
  Mr. Bevan: Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will permit me to deal with his main argument.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I should like to point out—
  Mr. Bevan: Wait. Be patient.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Will the right hon. Gentleman not—
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman must let me finish my argument. I have been interrupted four or five times. Do let me finish now.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last question.
  Mr. Bevan: Then at least let me finish this part of my speech. The substantial point made by the Opposition is that, after having made allowances for all these things it remains the fact that the modern house costs more than the pre-war house, taking like with like. That is the main case we have to answer. If it be the fact that the cost of housing is moving disproportionately to the cost of other materials, that would be a very serious charge indeed, and I should have to answer it. But I think that hon. Members in all parts of the Committee will agree with this contention: that a house, with all its equipment, is about the most complex product in society. One can hardly think of an industry that does not make its contribution to a house and its equipment. Every other industry has to be stimulated into activity; every other industry has to be organised to make the bits and pieces that go into a house. Therefore, it is practically impossible for the price curve of housing to move differently from the price curve of every other industry.
  Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman contend that the cost of building a house in the post-war world moved disproportionately to the cost of other things as against the pre-war world? This is the gravamen of my case here: it is impossible for bricks, steel, coal and wood to cost more—all the ingredients that go into the building of a house—and for the price of a house to fall. If that were so it would be miraculous. Of course, it is a miracle performed by the Opposition every time we have a Debate nowadays; they always insist, as I said a few days ago, upon all the items being up and the total being down. I have looked at these figures very carefully, and I find that since pre-war years the cost of building—not the housing alone, but the cost of building—has moved in exactly the same ratio as all other costs, which is exactly what we would expect. Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman deny that?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I am always in a little difficulty to know whether the right hon. Gentleman wishes to indulge in a soliloquy or a dialogue. Using his own argument, is it not an odd thing that
  1818
  the efficiency of the deployment of labour in so many other industries has gone up while the efficiency of deployment of labour in this industry has gone down? That is what I was asking the Minister to address himself to.
  Mr. Bevan: This is exactly the opposite of what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was saying.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Oh, no.
  Mr. Bevan: If it be the fact that the deployment of labour in the building of houses was less efficient than the deployment of labour in other industries, then the cost of the houses would have moved up relative to that of all the other industries. Is that not so? It must have expression somewhere, and the expression would be in the cost of the house. But if it be the fact, as it is, that the cost of housing has moved in the same ratio as the cost of other products, then it is not inefficiency in the building industry that is responsible but the difference in the product the industry is making. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot have it both ways.
  Surely the Opposition would agree that it would be very remarkable, and almost impossible having regard to the builder's own profits and his own efficiency, for the cost of the house to fall if all the materials cost more. I repeat: if it be that the product produced by the building industry—in this case the house—has moved up no more than the cost of other things, then, obviously, there is not a greater increase in inefficiency in the building industry.
  What has happened is that the building industry has been given the task of making a superior product. That is it exactly. But that does not contradict the Girdwood Report, because if it be that the building industry is inefficient, and if it be that the costs of every other industry have moved in the same ratio, that only means that the whole of industry is inefficient; it does not mean that the building industry is more inefficient than any other. In other words, if there were to be a Girdwood Report on every industry in society they would produce the same result. Therefore, I cannot understand the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument at all.

  1819
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman also gave the Committee a comparison of the amount of time it took to build a local authority house as against the time taken to build a house for sale. Does he wish to press that point? I knew that in 1946 and 1947. I called the attention of the building contractors to it, because the same building contractors who are building the houses for sale are building the houses for local authorities. We knew what they were doing. Because they were building the local authority house with public money advanced at different stages they did not care how long it took to build the house if it competed with a house they were building for sale.
  The quicker they built the house for sale the quicker they got their money back, but they were losing no money by delaying the local authority house. We knew, and I accused them of it, that very often they were neglecting local authority schemes in order to man their private schemes. In other words, what we were having to deal with was not so much the inefficiency as the cupidity of the building industry. They were very efficient in pursuing the thing that gave the most profit. For example, if they were not paid for a local authority house until it was completed they would build it more quickly.
  It has always been in question in the building industry whether we ought not to insist upon holding a larger sum of money until the house is actually completed before paying it over. Indeed, we knew—and we know even now, although it is getting less and less—that the finishing stages of the house were being unduly prolonged, because at that stage the builder had got 90 per cent. of the money from the local authorities. It did not matter very much how much longer they took on the finishing stages of the houses. That is one of the reasons why it took longer. But the Girdwood Report also says there is no reason, on the evidence, to suppose that houses for sale are being built more efficiently than houses for the local authorities. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman did not mention that, but it is a fact.
  My contention is that there is no case lying against the building industry in this matter, certainly not against the cost of housing, and that it will be possible to
  1820
  reduce the cost of house building only by other industries being able to produce their products more efficiently and more cheaply. What other element is there in the cost of the house? We could, of course, reduce the cost if the builder took less profit. Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggest that way? Or we could pay landlords less for the land.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: That is not a big item.
  Mr. Bevan: In London? The Chairman of the L.C.C. Housing Committee will tell us that the cost in London is appalling. It is a very considerable proportion of the cost of building in the London area. That is one of the reasons why we have to build flats, why we have a bigger density per acre than we sometimes think desirable in order to escape land costs in London. The fact is that an examination of the cost of building houses puts us in a white sheet, and nothing the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has suggested besmirches it.
  It is true, and no one expected otherwise, that immediately after the war it took some time for the building industry to be geared up. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman went very far afield when he suggested that in 1945 we started off with a building industry far superior to the building industry after the 1914–18 war. In August, 1945, I started the building programme with the war with Japan still on. We started the building programme with 50 per cent. of industry in this country still geared up for war production. We started off with our Army, Navy and Air Force all over the world. As a matter of fact, if we take the first year, which is a very modest thing to do, as a year of preparation and not of building—as, indeed, it could not be and was admitted here it could not be—if we take the first post-war year as a year of preparation, of mobilising the industry and getting designs and schemes started, then we managed last year to achieve a rate of building that was not achieved until eight or 10 years after the 1914–18 war.
  These are the facts, not the garbled description that was given by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. We have already provided homes not only for the 750,000 that was held to be the target—we passed that target last December—

  1821
  but before the end of the year we shall have provided more than one million homes. We shall be 250,000 beyond the target set by the last Government in March, 1945. But we shall still need houses, and why? Because all our people are in work. That is the reason. Because most of our old people are now able to live out their lives in their own homes. I know how the Opposition would solve the housing problem. They would solve it quite easily by making it impossible for people to pay rents at all. In 1939, in a town whose housing report I have already given, there were 120 idle houses. There were idle flats in the centre of London in 1938–39, and there was an appalling slum problem. The speculator was all right because he built all the luxury houses for the people in the centre, but, at the same time, people in the periphery were all crowded out. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that to be true. Anyone can solve the housing problem in the way the right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests, by making people too poor to occupy new houses.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman talks about rents and about high housing costs leading to high rents. In 1945 I estimated that if a 10s. rent were paid—I am talking about a net rent; I suggest to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman it is always better to talk about net rents than gross rents, because putting in the rate amount always falsifies the figures—plus a subsidy of £16 10s. from the State and £5 10s. from the local rates, it would roughly finance the house I have described with a minimum of 950 superficial feet. That was the position I inherited. The position today is that to amortise the cost of that house it would be necessary to change the net rent to 13s. and add another 1s. for additional management costs and repairs, making it between 3s. and 4s. net rent more than it was in 1945.
  But since 1945 earnings have gone up, too. It is as easy for a wage earner, on the average, to pay at the 1949 rates of earnings 13s. or 14s. net rent as it was for the wage earner in 1945 to pay 10s. Does anyone deny that? Furthermore, the rents that are being charged for postwar houses bear the same relationship to post-war earnings as pre-war rents bear to pre-war earnings. In other words, we have moved in exactly the same relation-
  1822
  ship. We have not moved away but have moved at exactly the same pace. Therefore, no case whatsoever lies against us in that respect.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman mentioned that local authorities have altered their rents. The fixing of rents is a matter for the local authority, and my advice to Members is not to try to do it themselves, because if they try to fix rents they will have a good many quarrels on their hands. It is entirely a matter for local authority management. When local authorities have raised some of their pre-war rents in order not to raise post-war rents too much, have they not done a perfectly reasonable thing? If it be the fact that post-war rents are roughly the same in relationship to earnings as pre-war rents were, if no prewar rents were raised at all and people are living in subsidised houses, then the ratio of earnings to rents for pre-war housing would alter immediately.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the private landlord is not allowed to do that, but he is under no obligation to provide rented houses; he does not do it, nor has he done it for a long time, which is the reason why every enlightened housing authority has always said we cannot solve the housing problem except by public authorities building houses for renting. No injustice is being done to the private landlord if he cannot raise his rent. The local authority is permitted only to do it in order to consolidate rents, and distribute the burden evenly all over the tenants, as many of them have done and are doing progressively.
  Of course, people quarrel about rents. Whenever rents go up 1s. or 2s. there is a row. That is human nature. Everyone wants the product he is selling to go up in price, and the product he is buying to fall in price. No hardship is suffered at all by virtue of the fact that the local authorities have decided to raise rents. As these people are living in subsidised houses, it is reasonable that they should pay a slight increase in rent rather than the other people should pay an increase in rates in order to keep those rents down.
  I have only one more thing to say on the subject of housing costs. I should like to see the cost of housing less. We should all like to see the cost of everything less, but the right hon. and gallant Gentleman

  1823
  has not suggested to the Committee any way of doing it. Let me remind him that when he brings this indictment against the building industry, he is bringing it against private enterprise. These houses have been built by private enterprise. His is a heavy indictment against his friends, the builders, and they will not thank him for it.
  A resolution was intended to be moved at the last Labour Party conference asking for the nationalisation of the building industry. It ought to be moved after today's indictment against inefficient private enterprise in building. I hope the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will not persist in that matter. We do not want to add at present to our nationalisation programme, but if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman persists in this indictment of private enterprise in the building industry then we shall have to consider it seriously.
  After all, there are only two ways of attending to this business—either by public enterprise or private enterprise. If private enterprise is falling down we may have to pick it up, and we will have to consider this matter very seriously indeed. When my friends the building operatives read the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech they will regard it as an incitement to them to get the industry nationalised. I should be put in the absurd position of having to accept nationalisation on behalf of my party, or trying to prove that private enterprise in the industry is efficient and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wrong. I would not like to be driven there. I would not like to have to prove him wrong. I am prepared to accept what he says—that in his opinion the labour force in the building industry is inefficiently deployed, and I shall call the attention of the master builders to his remarks the next time I meet them.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will also call attention to the fact that what I was advocating and am still advocating is that it should be efficiently deployed—that is to say, instead of putting the men in fetters on a tight rope and asking them to dance, they should be taken off the tight rope, and allowed to dance on the floor.
  Mr. Bevan: Now we are coming to it. I was very glad to have that inter-
  1824
  ruption, because I want to know where the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is. I have asked him this question before. I mentioned the last time that we discussed housing in Committee that the Opposition had not yet made up its mind what was to be ratio of houses for sale and houses for rent. Now the right hon. Gentleman has let the cat out of the bag. He wants to set them free. He says they are in fetters. What fetters? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I know the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is in a very delicate situation and I do not want to appear to be sadistic in torturing him, but I should really like to know where he and the Opposition stand in this matter. Indeed, we all want to know and the country wants to know. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said, "Do not keep them in fetters." In other words, would he say that we should let the building industry build as many houses as it likes? That is the first question I would like him to answer, and I am entitled to an answer.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said that we should not keep the industry in fetters. Does he suggest that the building industry should build what it likes? He does not want that; he would not want it to build cinemas and not houses. It would have done it in 1945, but it has learnt much better in 1949. Does he suggest that the builders should build as many houses as they like? We should like to know that. If he cannot give an answer, then perhaps the acting Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) can give the answer. I know that we can only elicit the Election programme from the Opposition in bits and pieces, and not until their Leader has spoken, but it was the Opposition who asked for a housing Debate, not me, and I should have thought that they would come prepared to answer these questions, because I have asked them before.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The right hon. Gentleman has been answered time and time again, and will be answered as often as he likes. I said at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of my speech that if he cannot come up to the level which I established he might come up to the level of the years before. If he cannot keep up to the progress made he

  1825
  might keep up not merely to the level of Mr. Chamberlain, but that which Mr. Baldwin maintained for the whole of his time.
  Mr. Bevan: I shall try to get some coherence into the Opposition's argument. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman now says that he does not entirely want the fetters to be struck off the ankles of the building industry, but that it should be given a longer chain. How much longer? We are building about 200,000 houses a year at present.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Is that all?
  Mr. Bevan: That is the rate of completion.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Is that the right hon. Gentleman's answer to the question, what is the out-turning of the year to be? I have asked him that and he has not given an answer yet.
  Mr. Bevan: We are building at the rate of 200,000 a year.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Is that the answer?
  Mr. Bevan: We are building at the rate of 200,000 a year; that is the rate of completion.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Is that the right hon. Gentleman's answer to my question? What is the rate for the year?
  Mr. Bevan: As the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has launched such an indictment against the building industry I cannot tell what it will do. All we know is that we are finishing at the rate of 200,000 houses a year. What is the extent of the chain which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wants for the building industry? Is it 330,000 houses? He says that the industry cannot reach the rate of pre-war days, and I claim that we have reached the rate. The right hon. Gentleman blinks, but does he think we are going to count the silly little bungalows built before the war along the coast as anything equal to a modern house? They are all along the south and south-east coast of England, and eyesores they are. Builders made a fortune in putting them up, and fortunes are now being made in holding them up.
  Do we understand that what the Opposition says is that they would build at the rate of 330,000 houses of this type?
  1826
  If so, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us where he will get the softwood from? The frivolous irresponsibility of some of the things that fall from the lips of the Opposition these days is astonishing. The great limiting factor on the building of houses, indeed the greatest limiting factor, is the supply of softwood timber. We get a great deal of it from Canada, which costs dollars. A great deal we have got from Sweden, which always tends to become hard currency. We are getting very little from the Soviet Union. We have only been able to build the number of houses which we have built by cutting down to half the amount of timber in each house, which was an extraordinary technical feat.
  We were able to do that only by taking exceptional emergency measures to get the bitumen mastic industry manned up to produce a covering for the hard floors. Half the timber is costing twice as much as before the war. In other words, the price of soft timber, which is beyond our control, has increased. It is responsible for 14 per cent. of the cost of a house and is between three and four times more than it was. That is the item with which we have to deal, because it is the limiting factor. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has said that he will set the building industry free to start a whole lot of houses they would not have the timber to finish.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that he could get enough timber for 100,000 houses a year from the resources of this country and for an expenditure of just over £8 million. Does he suggest that there is no waste going on from which it might be possible to get just the timber essential for housing, which is the first of all our social services?
  Mr. Bevan: The answer is that in Canada there is a sharp conflict between timber and food. There is no waste in Canada. We are buying from Canada wheat, bacon and things of that sort. In the conflict to which I have referred we have decided that a reasonable priority would be timber for 200,000 houses and that the rest would have to go on food. That is a very reasonable proportion indeed. At one time it looked as though the number of houses would have to be less. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman must face the possibility that there might be a national misfortune: the

  1827
  Opposition might get into office. They should now be thinking what they would do when they got there. They should apply the Kantian principle of making the immediate action of universal application.
  I am sorry to weary the Committee, but there is one more thing to which I want to refer before I sit down—
  Mr. Marples: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the subject of timber will he say whether he has taken all possible steps to get timber from Canada, and what other steps he has taken apart from those taken in dollar countries?
  Mr. Bevan: Buying timber is a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. I am satisfied that he has taken all the steps that lay within his power, and I know that he will take note of what has been said in this Debate. If there are other means open to us they will be explored. The situation may get better or it may get worse.
  The right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities has not answered my question about the size of the programme. Does he now accept the proportion of one house for sale to four for rent? Last year he was a little confused on this point. Lord Woolton said one thing. The Leader of the Opposition, in an unguarded moment in Blackpool, said another thing. The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) said another, and the right hon. and gallant Member himself said a fourth. What kind of ratio does he think would be reasonable? What should be the length of the chain there?
  It really is rather awkward if we cannot get an answer to these questions. Should the proportion be one in five, or four, or three, or two? What should it be? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer?"] It was the Opposition who asked for this Debate. They ought to tell us. We have told the country and they should tell us and take us into their confidence. Just tell us. The Leader of the Opposition has not spoken yet. I warn hon. Members opposite that they ought to give him counsel about this matter. He does not know much about it, and he
  1828
  might say something very embarrassing. They ought to make up their minds before he speaks, so that he will not land them into something embarrassing. In this interrogation I am seeking to assist the Opposition to make up their minds for themselves.
  No one who goes about the country at present and sees the housing schemes that are under way can be anything but proud of what is being accomplished. I am now not making a party or a Government point about it: this is co-operation among the builders, the local authorities and the central Government, and a very remarkable job is being done. I went to Bath the other day and saw houses being built there in Bath stone, small houses that would compete with anything that Nash did. I have seen mining villages being built in a small distressed area of Durham, as lovely as any of the classical villages in Great Britain. I have seen little housing schemes in rural areas that were an adornment to the countryside. All over the country there is this co-operation going on among various people.
  I hope most sincerely that no pressure will be brought to bear upon the Government to lower housing standards. That would be a cruel thing to do. After all, people will have to live in and among these houses for many years. Enough damage has already been done to the face of England by irresponsible people. I hope we shall defend housing standards. If we have to wait a little longer, that will be far better than doing ugly things now and regretting them for the rest of our lives. I hope the Committee will join with me in congratulating local authorities upon the job that they have done in building good houses for our own people.
  Mr. Alfred Edwards: As I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman said that longer building time meant increased costs, according to the size of the house, and he gave the figure £250. He also mentioned £200 on fittings. That makes £450. Is there not still a figure to be added to that figure for wages costs? Could he give us any information about it?
  Mr. Bevan: It is undoubtedly correct, in the year which was under review by the Girdwood Committee, that it was taking far too long to finish

  1829
  the houses. No one denied that. The time has now been drastically reduced. It is very much less than a year now, as against 18 months, and the local authorities are having the benefit of it in being able to let people go into the houses more quickly. Costs are tending to fall. They have already fallen about £10 per house because of the fall in the price of timber and non-ferrous metals. The final costs of houses are tending to reproduce the tender price. In other words, final costs are not far away from tender prices. That has been stabilising the position over the last year, and I am hoping that it will improve still further.
  Let me return to the point about housing standards. We are taking a pride in them, and we ought to congratulate local authorities, after four years' experience, on the way in which they have managed their housing programmes. Local councillors have a very difficult task. It is very much easier for us than it is for the local councillor, whose door is being knocked at day by day by anxious people who want to get a house. We are all deeply conscious of the amount of suffering that exists in the country. We are also conscious of the fact that we are making substantial progress in dealing with it. When the new Bill comes into operation we shall be able to apply ourselves not only to building new houses but to reconditioning old houses and pulling down some of the slums. Indeed, slum clearances schemes are already being started in some parts of the country. I am deeply grateful to the Opposition for the opportunity it has afforded us once more of calling the attention of the country to the housing programme and for the illumination which the Opposition always throws on the subject.
  5.20 p.m.
  Mr. J. H. Hare: The Committee has listened as usual with a great deal of pleasure to the Minister of Health. He has allowed us to enjoy all the emotions. We have listened to wit, sarcasm and ferocity, and at the end I thought we were beginning to listen to penitence. The Minister did not attempt in any serious way to deal with the very full and considered speech of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot). In trying to deal with the speech
  1830
  of my right and gallant Friend, the Minister was in his more frivolous mood. He more or less admitted that all he wanted to do was to ask questions. Most hon. Members would probably feel that the right hon. Gentleman probably went too far in that, for, having asked four questions and having been answered by my right hon. and gallant Friend, the Minister asked a fifth question and then said, "I must not be interrupted." That was hardly just to the very serious argument put forward from these benches.
  I am glad that in his final remarks the right hon. Gentleman admitted that, despite whatever may have been done during the post-war years, an immense housing problem remains. I wish he had always tried to keep that fact before the people and his own colleagues in the Government. We must not forget that not so many months or years ago the right hon. Gentleman was parading the country saying that the back of the housing problem would be broken by the time of the next General Election. Remarks of that sort create a very false impression. We ought not to forget that even in July last year the right hon. Gentleman used these words:
  "I would warn hon. Members not to pay too much attention to the housing lists because the housing lists are not now an expression of the housing needs."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1948; Vol. 453, c. 1320.]
  He did not say anything on those lines today. Anyhow, I am grateful that the last 12 months have made the right hon. Gentleman realise the folly and crime of remarks of that sort. Many hon. Members opposite took him up on that point on the Second Reading of the Housing Bill in March when he did not go as far as he did last year but concentrated on the achievements of the Government rather than on the immense need for new housing that remains. I think it was the hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. Yates) who said that even if output were doubled, the problem in Birmingham would take 40 years to solve. The hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson), who is chairman of the housing committee of the London County Council, knows that in London we still have an immense housing problem. My hon. Friends and I consider that we are being grossly hampered by the policy of the Minister, but as far as we are able to do

  1831
  so, irrespective of party, we are all trying our best to deal with this vast human problem.
  Mrs. Middleton: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the revision of the housing lists which has taken place during the past year, has shown a considerable reduction compared with the time about which he is speaking?
  Mr. Hare: I am very glad that that may be so in Plymouth. I think that the hon. Member for Kennington would agree that as regards London we are disappointed and that the combing of the lists has not brought the drastic reductions for which we hoped. In spite of combing the lists and trying to cut out duplication where people have their names down on more than one list, I do not think any hon. Member would suggest for a moment that the problem will not take years at its present rate of progress before it can be said in any way to be overcome. The immensity of the problem must be kept constantly in mind. If we were in power, we might take the line of the right hon. Gentleman and try to concentrate on what we had done, but we should be wrong if for a moment we lost sight of the objective which must lie before us.
  I agree with my right hon. and gallant Friend that the real problem, which must worry all of us who are concerned with the provision of new houses in large numbers and at the right place, is the cost of housing. When trying to answer the very carefully considered points put by my right hon. and gallant Friend, the Minister burked the issue. He did not give any solution to the crippling rate of housing cost. He more or less tried to whitewash the building industry and accuse my right hon. and gallant Friend of trying to produce a case which might bring pressure on him to nationalise the industry. He treated the argument in a very flippant way. No hon. Member will dispute it if I say that we all agree that something must somehow be done to bring down building costs. Owing to my good fortune in being on the London County Council housing committee, I know that already we are beginning to discover that people are finding it difficult to pay the rents which we are having to
  1832
  ask, although we are subsidising our new houses to a far higher degree than we are asked to do by the Minister under the Act.
  The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye) will agree with me that in the country areas—I also represent a country constituency—the farm workers are finding it very difficult to take up the new houses which are being built for them. The hon. Member shakes his head and apparently does not agree, but I find that is so in my part of East Anglia. It is a most serious situation and a situation which, if we are, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to indicate, entering a period of recession, will get more serious because there will be less money about. Therefore, if the present height of rents is already having this serious effect on the tenants whom the local authorities are hoping to re-house, it will be much worse in a period of depression. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will indicate how the Government intend to deal with the problem of housing costs.
  I was not impressed by the manner in which the Minister tried to account for the extra cost of a house today compared with 1939. He really did not answer the salient point put to him by my right hon. and gallant Friend, namely, that in the United States it requires.85 of a worker to complete a house as compared with 2.25 in this country. I would assure the right hon. Gentleman that the figures of house completions given by my right hon. and gallant Friend did not include trailers or caravans or temporary constructions; they were figures taken from the Bureau of Labour Statistics and dealt only with permanent houses.
  It is clear that we are not getting the same productivity of labour in our building industry as is being achieved in the United States, and it is also clear from other figures given by my right hon. and gallant Friend, that we are not getting the same productivity as the building labour force of Sweden. Their performance, unfortunately for us, compares favourably with what we have done. Neither my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee nor myself believe that the Government can continue their present policy and bring down costs. I am certain that they are as worried as we are about those costs because, what-

  1833
  ever the right hon. Gentleman may say about people being in the same position now to pay rents at these post-war levels as they were in 1939, I do not think that view is shared by the general public or by most hon. Members of this House. I read in the paper today that the Association of Municipal Corporations is to bring this point to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman. I read these headlines: "Rents Reach Limit, Councils Protest." That association is a non-political body and speaks for a number of local authorities whose interest in housing cannot in any way be questioned, and it ought to know the position.
  The Minister could have said a little more than he did about the necessity of trying to vary the type of house now being produced. In the past he has concentrated, and has asked local authorities to concentrate, much too much on the three-bedroom type of house. He stuck to that rigidly until he showed indications of vacillating, although not very much, in the speech he made in this House in March this year on the Second Reading of the latest Housing Bill. All hon. Members who have the subject of housing at heart have no desire in any way to reduce amenities unless brutal necessity forces us to do so, but I suggest that more two bedroom houses should be produced by the local authorities and, as we are trying to do in the London County Council, more homes for single people of both sexes who require accommodation, the young as well as the aged.
  I believe that a great deal of accommodation in this country is under-occupied, and that if local authorities were told to build a larger proportion of the smaller unit of accommodation, they could go through their lists and offer attractive smaller dwellings at cheaper rents to tenants at present occupying council houses. I do not think there should be any question of compulsion, because we do not want to force older people to leave a house they have lived in all their lives. However, there are many older or single people, even married couples who have not had the good fortune to raise a family, who would be delighted to move to smaller accommodation with modern amenities if this were available at a cheaper rent.
  I am certain that the great building industry on which this housing development depends is not being allowed to
  1834
  produce of its best. I hope that the Government today will give us far more indication than the right hon. Gentleman has given of how we are to face up to the problem put so ably by my right hon. and gallant Friend, namely, how is it that with approximately the same number of men we are producing 50 per cent. fewer houses? That is a problem which we must face and which the Government must solve by every means they can call to their aid.
  I feel that we are menaced by the possibility, owing to the high building costs, of local authorities failing to produce houses for people who are their first responsibility. I am talking about the £5 and £6 a week men. I am afraid that those houses are becoming too expensive for that type of person, and that they are going to people with larger means who are getting priority over those Who should, normally, be the first responsibility of the local authorities. Also I am certain that many people are going into council houses who could well afford either to buy their own houses outright or to pay economic rents for houses let in the market. For instance, only this morning I was discussing a case in my constituency where, because of the shortage of houses, the local council was giving a council house to one of its senior officials, a person of ample means compared with the average applicant on the waiting list in that rural district area. I am certain that more flexibility is needed if we are to achieve the object we all have in mind.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Blenkinsop): On that point, the local authority is perfectly at liberty to charge an economic rent in the type of case mentioned by the hon. Member if it so wishes.
  Mr. Hare: It may be open to the local authority to charge an economic rent, but my point is that the house should go to somebody in a less high income group who would never have the opportunity which this highly paid official has of occupying a decent house, and I consider that a poorer person is the first responsibility of the local authority.
  I do not wish to detain the Committee any longer, and I hope I have made my points clear. I am absolutely convinced that the future will demand of our people

  1835
  all their energies to produce the extra volume of goods to sell abroad which is needed, and to grow more food in our own countryside. They will do this far better if they are given real hope of looking forward in the next 15 years to a solution of the housing problem which faces this country.
  5.40 p.m.
  Mr. Gibson: I have listened with very great care to what the hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and the hon. Member for Woodbridge (Mr. Hare) have said. The Debate, apparently, was asked for in order to examine critically the work of the Government on housing, and one would have thought, therefore, that suggestions would be made for meeting the difficulties to which hon. Members opposite have referred. Although I have listened very carefully to what has been said, I have not yet heard a single suggestion for reducing the cost of house building. I hope to say more about this presently.
  On the general question, I find it very difficult to understand what seems to me the false criticism which has been expressed today when I remember what happened in this country between 1919 and 1926. I was in the building industry, and I know the stops and starts which were occasioned by the inefficient Government policy of those days, when prices went up to fantastic heights, so that even the Government of the day had to cut down work on housing as though with a sharp knife. No one can reasonably say that since the last war we have had anything like the kind of experience which we had in the days after the first world war.
  I remember taking part in agitations to try to get the Government and my local authority to build houses for people who could afford only to pay rent, who could not even contemplate the possibility of purchasing a house. It took many years to get things done and to have houses built in large numbers. When they were built, in spite of what the hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities has said, many of them were jerry-built. I speak with feeling and with experience, for I took part in the agitation to expose the jerry-building which took place in those days, not only in London, but all
  1836
  over the country. Anyone, therefore, who recalls the facts and remembers the British housing tragedies of those days in comparison with what has been achieved since the end of the last war, must admit that a very fine effort has been made.
  To have housed 981,000 families since the end of the war is by no means a bad effort. Even if, to make the number smaller, we deduct the number of families who live in camps, the total still represents 960,000 families living in homes which did not exist when the war ended. What is more, these homes are infinitely better and larger than the kind of home which was built before the war, but which in spite of increases in rent here and there, are on the whole not very much more costly to their tenants. It is quite false, therefore, to try to give the impression—the hon. Member for Woodbridge failed miserably to do so, as the public will agree when they read his speech—that there has been a complete failure in the housing work of the Government since the end of the war.
  Having said that, I agree, as the Minister himself emphasised, that an enormous problem remains yet to be solved. Hundreds of thousands of people are in need of houses all over the country. But the houses are needed for renting, and not for purchase. The need for continued drive is as great now as ever it was, although the hon. Member for Woodbridge got rather out of his depth over the numbers of people who are on waiting lists. The recent check-up has very considerably reduced the numbers. As the hon. Member knows, the number still on the waiting list in London has been reduced to 125,000.
  Mr. Hare: That does not include the borough councils.
  Mr. Gibson: I agree—I am talking about the London County Council—but even if we were to add that number, the total would not be more than approximately 200,000.
  There is no excuse whatever for the slightest complacency, for much remains to be done; in addition, there are slums which need to be pulled down; some of us have already made a start on slum clearance. I always thought that I knew something about slum conditions, but last week, when I went into one of the worst

  1837
  slum areas in London, I was appalled at the conditions existing in one part of Islington. The houses themselves are so sound structurally that medical officers of health are dubious about condemning them, but inside they have been allowed to become festering dens of unhealthy life, with walls falling down, floors cracking, no proper convenience, and no water. There are thousands of houses like these, not only in London but in many other large cities, which must be dealt with. There is, therefore, no call for anyone to imagine that there is not still a great deal to be done in the building of new houses.
  A very important point which is apt to be overlooked is that since the end of the war there has grown up a new standard in people's requirements. I receive letters almost daily from people asking why they cannot have a flat in one or other of the blocks which have been completed by the L.C.C. One woman will say, "Mrs. Brown has got one, but my conditions are worse than hers and I have been on the list far longer." Very often I find on inquiry, however, that such an applicant is not living in conditions which are overcrowded and has a very low position in the list of priority. But I do not blame those people, for they are merely seeking something better.
  The more we build the type of accommodation which is being built today, the more we shall increase the desire for better living conditions. One poor woman in the slum which I visited last week said, "I would be content with these two rooms if someone would give me a bathroom." There is no doubt whatever that the provision of a bathroom and facilities for hot water are prominent in the present-day demand for houses, and this must be taken into account in estimating the numbers of houses which require to be built.
  I do not believe that private enterprise will ever do all that is required. It did not do so before the war. When private enterprise had its opportunity between the wars it did not build the masses of houses needed by the poor who could afford only to pay rent. The task, therefore, was left to the borough councils and to the L.C.C. It was we on those bodies who were expected to carry the burdens and the losses, but wherever there was a possibility of profit on the outskirts of towns private enterprise would come along with what were in many cases jerry-built
  1838
  houses. I hope that we shall encourage people to want better and better homes, for in that way we shall help to bring about a better citizenship.
  Costs are, of course, very high and ought to be brought down, but they have not reached the extravagant, fantastic heights which they attained after the first world war. I have listened intently to hon. Gentlemen opposite in the hope that we should receive suggestions from them about how costs could be brought down. Before I make one or two further remarks let me put right a quotation which we have had from the Front Bench opposite, when it was suggested that the average rate contribution of the L.C.C. for housing was £23 a house. That is not true. The London County Council did, however, publish a report of its building work on cottage estates, which showed for those estates a supplemental loss of something like that figure, but we have recently published a further report which shows a considerable reduction. All housing authorities must amalgamate their housing work, as is done by the L.C.C. It is no secret that the average supplemental rate cost to London as the result of the London County Council's housing is £2 13s. a house—not £23. It is necessary that I make that correction, otherwise there is likely to be considerable misunderstanding in the Press of the figures which the Opposition have given.
  Mr. Hare: The figure of £23 10s. was in a report some six months ago. Am I not right in saying that the present figure for the new cottage estates is £16 10s. per house to be borne on the rates of London County Council, and that this information was published only a few days ago?
  Mr. Gibson: That is true, except that it is not to be borne on the rates. The amount to be borne on the rates is the average amount of the whole of our housing estates and all the flats and cottages by law must be included in our housing revenue accounts. The supplemental rate charged at the moment is not £22, nor £16, but £2 13s. and, if we go on with the success we are getting now, I think we shall get a reduction on that.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I did not say that the average cost was £23, but that for the 1,800 houses the contribution would be £23 and that goes to raise the

  1839
  level of the whole rate contribution. Obviously houses produced under beneficent Tory Governments produced far less burden on the local authority.
  Mr. Gibson: It might also be remembered that where a subsidy results in a balance as a result of the beneficent efforts of this Government, that must be taken into account.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. Member said the average cost was £16.
  Mr. Gibson: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows better than that. I will repeat, although it has nothing to do with my argument, that the loss per cottage outside the county is something below £16. It has been reduced from £23 to £16, but averaging the two types of building, as we have to do in connection with our housing finances, we find that the result works out at £2 13s. per dwelling on all the dwellings built by London County Council in London. I think it right to say that that is the position, and it is not what the Opposition Press have been saying, something in the nature of £23.
  Nevertheless, costs ought to come down. How are we to do it? Would the Opposition do it as they did after the First World War when the building industry were allowed to chop wages vigorously? Members of my own union lost twopence an hour overnight and wages came down with a rush. That resulted in a reduction in building costs. Do the Opposition suggest that should be done, or that the hours should be extended? Just as we are not entitled to get cheap food from agriculture at the expense of the agricultural workers' low wages, we are not entitled to get cheap homes at the expense of building trade operatives. In any case, the wages in the industry have not gone up as they did after the First World War and no one can suggest that they have been using their economic position to exploit the community.
  Mr. Gammans: Would the hon. Member comment on that part of the Girdwood Report which says that we need three men now to do the work of two?
  Mr. Gibson: Yes, I intend doing so, because that is quite wrong. I think the
  1840
  way to get a reduction in building costs, among other things, is by improving the efficiency of the industry. So far as I can see, even the industry's own journals admit the necessity for that. To improve the efficiency of the British building industry to the level of the American building industry would very considerably reduce building costs. It would help if they were a little less conservative in the use of machines. I admit that some operatives are conservative about the use of machines, but, given proper conditions, even that difficulty can be got over, as I have discovered from personal experience.
  I believe that if the operatives are brought into the closest consultation through the joint committee, which is now accepted, and are paid properly, that will result in an all-round efficiency and a reduction in building costs. The building industry has a means of reducing costs in its own hands. Twelve months ago it agreed to an incentive bonus scheme under which the men would be entitled to a bonus of 20 per cent. on the average rate. That scheme is worked in only a few parts of the country. Employers do not like it because it requires thinking about and some organisation and a little staff to run it, but where it has been worked, it has been a success.
  In London the value has been shown of getting the co-operation of the operatives on London County Council estates as a result of the use of the incentive bonus scheme, adjusted from site to site by agreement of the men. We have reduced the labour cost on houses built for the L.C.C. by £63 per house since November, 1947. I suggest that if this scheme, on which the industry themselves have agreed, were used vigorously all over the country, it would result in a big increase in output, as well as greater earnings for the operatives, and would give local authorities houses very much more quickly.
  We have had an increase in output of more than 40 per cent. and it is not true to say that it requires three men to do the work of two. In London the output for county council and most of the borough council schemes is up to prewar standards, indeed, on some sites, the men are well in advance of the schedule sand are producing at an even greater rate than before the war. They are entitled to credit for that. No one is

  1841
  satisfied with the position, but the men should be given credit for what they have done. By this means we may have greater output and a reduction in price.
  Prices of materials should come down. I understand that the Board of Trade have referred certain industries to the Monopolies Commission. I wish to appeal to the Commission to be quick with their inquiry into prices charged for building materials, particularly in London. The Girdwood Report said that London was in a particularly bad position from this point of view because margins charged by the industry in London were very much greater than in other parts of the country. We have a special interest in the activities of the Monopolies Commission and I hope they will report quickly.
  One of the biggest headaches some of us have is the cost of land. London has a special difficulty in this matter but all large towns have a similar difficulty. In London the average cost per acre is more than £12,000. We start off with an enormous handicap.
  Mr. Pritt: Did the hon. Member say £12,000?
  Mr. Gibson: Yes, £12,000. One borough council, in order to find a site for working people, has had to pay £60,000 per acre and others have paid anything from £40,000 to £50,000. If the right hon. and gallant Member for Scottish Universities is anxious to do something to help to reduce the cost of producing homes in the City of London I shall be glad to welcome him with my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) and a few more of us who have been pressing for the taxation of land values, in order to reduce those costs or, alternatively for the State to take the land over and let local authorities have it at a reasonable price, but I do not find any enthusiastic support from the Front Opposition Bench for tackling the land question. Until we do so, housing in this country, not only by local authorities but by private enterprise, will be hamstrung because of the enormous prices which have to be paid for housing sites before building can begin.
  I believe, nevertheless, that even if the cost is greater than before the war—and if we do these things we may get the costs down—good housing is a social
  1842
  insurance and will obviate the expenditure of public money on all kinds of public health services. The spending of money to provide people with good homes, with a garden if possible, in good surroundings, is a form of social insurance which this country should not stop providing; I hope it will go on doing so for many years to come. I believe that good housing will in the end cost less to the community and will produce good citizenship and happy women and children. I hope that this Government will be allowed to continue for many years the beneficent housing work which they are doing.
  6.2 p.m.
  Mr. Molson: The Committee will no doubt have contrasted the two speeches which we have heard from the Government benches. The hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson), with all the knowledge and experience that come to him from being Chairman of the Housing Committee of the L.C.C., has applied his mind this afternoon to what I should have thought was common ground to both sides of the Committee—the urgent and pressing need to reduce the cost of building. I studied a report which he was good enough to send me, and which was the work of the committee over which he presides, on the cost of housing. Therefore I was not surprised that on a number of matters he confessed this afternoon, as the committee confessed in their report, that he did not see his way clear to the bringing about of any substantial reduction in costs.
  But the hon. Gentleman has certainly referred this afternoon to some of the most important things connected therewith. I was very much interested in what he said about the incentive bonus scheme. I am bound to say that I was astonished that the Minister of Health should have made a lengthy speech this afternoon without having so much as referred to that matter. It is known that this has been a matter, if not of dispute, at any rate of argument—I believe that there never are disputes between the Government and the trade unions—between the Minister of Health and those who represent the workers in the building industry. As from last November there was to be this new system of payment containing an incentive for production. I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary replies

  1843
  we may be given some information about that.
  After all, we are in the position—I have referred to this matter in other connections—in which the Government are to a large extent the employer of manpower in this country, which is a new development, and yet the level of wages and conditions are decided by free negotiations between the trade unions and the employers. There is, therefore, a great danger that he who pays the piper is not allowed to call the tune. That is so fundamental and obvious an issue that I had thought that the Minister of Health would have discussed that matter this afternoon. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with the matter when he replies to the Debate.
  The Minister of Health appeared to have only the most superficial acquaintance with the Girdwood Report, but in this Debate, to which he has contributed at no inconsiderable length, one would have thought that he would have dealt with the fall in the productivity of labour of 31 per cent. which was found as a fact by the Girdwood Committee. He said that he did not consider that the cost of building had risen disproportionately to other costs. In that he was taking an entirely different view from that of the Girdwood Committee, and one would have supposed that he would have explained why his assessment of the facts is entirely different from that of the committee which he himself appointed. The hon. Member for Kennington spoke about a 40 per cent. increase in the productivity of building labour in London during the recent past, and it may be that that 40 per cent. accounts for the discrepancy between the facts as found by the Girdwood Committee about 18 months ago and the statement of facts made by the Minister this afternoon.
  When a Minister is accounting to this Committee for his administration, matters of that importance might be referred to in his speech. When we seek to raise, in a useful and constructive way, the question of the cost of building, which is a burden on the whole of the people of this country, and which no responsible person will seek to deny is a problem, and when the Minister is replying to a careful and detailed speech by my right hon. and
  1844
  gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), one would expect that those facts would be dealt with, and that it should not be left to us to have to listen to back benchers with greater familiarity with the subject than the Minister possesses, in order to find a possible justification for the facts as the Minister states them.
  I return to the Girdwood Report. It may now be out of date, but we have certainly not been given any opportunity up to the present time of discussing it. I know very well that the Minister of Health—I regret making these remarks about him in his absence, but I am not responsible for his absence—
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: It is only fair to say that the Minister said that he had to go to the American Embassy. I said that we on this side would understand.
  Mr. Molson: I readily accept that. It may well impose a slightly additional burden on the Parliamentary Secretary, which I am sure he will find it quite easy to bear, of explaining and justifying certain parts of the housing administration of his right hon. Friend which were criticised in the Girdwood Report. They found as a fact that there had been an increase in the cost of the typical three-bedroom house built by a local authority from £380 in 1938–39 to £1,242 in 1947.
  Mr. George Porter: Will the hon. Member also quote the price for a three-bedroom house at the corresponding period after the First World War, namely, £1,500?
  Mr. Molson: That is really not relevant to my argument. I am not discussing the inflated prices of a quarter of a century ago. If the hon. Member would wait and listen to my argument, he would find that I am dealing with the cost of building at present.
  Of this increase £201 is attributed to the increase in size. The right hon. Gentleman has referred with pride and satisfaction to the increase in the size of houses built after the war. Improvements are supposed to account for a further £127. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will be good enough to notice that figure of £127 in the Girdwood Report, because actually the figure which

  1845
  the Minister gave this afternoon was £200. The total increase in labour costs is £297. Of this £96 is due to increased wage rates, and they are not disproportionately up in comparison with other increase in wage rates; improved standards, £75 and then we come to the decline in output which is £126; materials, £472; overheads and profits, £77.
  As regards the increased size, there is a great deal to be said for having more two-bedroom and one-bedroom houses in the country and that is one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Population. I know from the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) that in the case of the London County Council they have done quite a lot in that direction. But when they began doing it, it was in the face of a circular issued by the Minister of Health which gave contrary advice.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: May I point out that the Royal Commission on Population also stresses the need for larger houses as well as smaller.
  Mr. Molson: That is quite true, and I hope it will be done. But at the moment I was dealing with the need for smaller houses which was also put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Woodbridge (Mr. Hare). There is another point made by the Girdwood Report. When tenders are submitted by local authorities to the Ministry, it is not the total cost which is considered, but the cost per square foot. While the Minister has laid down a minimum area for local authority houses he has not laid down a maximum area; although in the case of houses built by private enterprise he has laid down the maximum and not a minimum. Consequently local authority houses are often unnecessarily large and consequently unnecessarily costly.
  I make no complaint about the past increases in wages, but I do regret the payment for travelling time which has been introduced and I view with grave concern the recently proposed further increase in the pay of building operatives. I do not believe that it can be said that the undertaking given two years ago has been honoured, that there would be an increase in production at least proportionate to the last increase in wages, and that there should be no increase in the labour cost. I understand that this new agreement for
  1846
  increased wages is not associated with increased output at all. I would remind the Parliamentary Secretary that that is not in accordance with the statement of policy issued by the Prime Minister in February, 1948. I feel that in a case of this kind, where nearly the whole of the industry is being supported out of public funds, it is particularly a case where the wishes and behest of the Government, as expressed by the Prime Minister, should be observed.
  I am surprised that the Minister did not refer at all to the statement in the Girdwood Report that there was a "lack of individual effort" in the industry. In paragraph 79 it is stated:
  "Until this problem of personal effort is solved, output cannot be satisfactory.…"
  There is mentioned a deterioration in the quality of labour, which of course was inevitable. Then the Committee come to what they call the serious overloading of the industry beyond available labour, and for that, of course, the Minister is personally and gravely to blame. He has been pleased for his own purposes to quote a White Paper issued by the "care-taker" Government, before the present Government came into power. In March, 1945, the previous Government issued a White Paper in which they gave a warning against beginning more houses than the building industry would have materials and labour to complete within a reasonable period of time. They pointed to the experience of the last war, and the hon. Member who was asking about building costs will be interested to note that the last Conservative or National Government was anxious that the mistakes that took place under Lord Addison should not be repeated on this occasion. They said:
  "'There was a serious rise in building costs after the last war because demands went far beyond the real capacity of the building industry. In order to check such a tendency the Government will this time'"—
  and so if we had remained in office it would have happened—
  "'control the volume of contracts let by local authorities, the building and repair work done on private account and the price of materials, standard components and fitments.'"
  Mr. Blenkinsop Mr. Blenkinsop rose—
  Mr. Molson: I shall go a little further and then be glad to give the Parliamentary Secretary an opportunity to reply.

  1847
  They went on to say, in paragraph 167, about the policy that was followed by the Ministry of Health:
  "Nevertheless it is evident that in practice the speed with which the housing programme developed during 1945 and 1946 far outran the effective capacity of the building and allied industries."
  It goes on to give some figures and the comment is made in paragraph 170:
  "Whether a housing programme on the scale undertaken was justified under these conditions, and in the light of the warnings we have mentioned, is open to question.… This resulted in too thin a spread of labour and materials over the amount of work in progress and has thus been largely responsible for the low level of productivity in house-building in the past, and the extra cost arising therefrom."
  Mr. Blenkinsop: The hon. Member has just been saying—most interestingly—that had his party had the opportunity they would by controls have very severely restricted the operations both of local authorities and of private building. Will he therefore kindly equate that remark with the remarks made by his right hon. and gallant Friend?
  Mr. Molson: I do not intend to equate my remarks with those made by anyone else in the Debate. My right hon. and gallant Friend was quoting today from what was said by the Government of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was the Leader. This was made perfectly plain at the time. Of course, the Parliamentary Secretary was not in the House at the time, but it has been frequently quoted against us that Mr. Willink on a number of occasions said that the building programme would have to be controlled. He also said he would give priority to local authorities. All that has been said, and it is quite futile to go on bringing up these well known and familiar quotations just in order to score a debating point.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: I am not anxious to score a debating point. All I am anxious to know is precisely what the right hon. Gentleman's party is really proposing when they say they now wish to "strike off the fetters." He has been asked by my right hon. Friend on several occasions what he meant, and now the hon. Gentleman is putting a new construction on "striking off the fetters."
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. Member really must not put words into my mouth. That is not what I said, and if he looks in the OFFICIAL REPORT he will see that it is not. Naturally I am in full agreement with what my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) is saying.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: We shall certainly read the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Molson: I do not want to take up much more time, so I shall summarise what I have said. It was that at the end of the war it was foreseen that as the building industry had been reduced to rather less than one-third of what it was at the outbreak of war, it would be necessary for the industry to resume building at a comparatively modest level. It was indeed because of the modesty of the level at which the building of permanent houses was to be undertaken that the late Lord Portal and his successors at the Ministry of Works undertook the programme of temporary houses.
  The whole of that programme was clearly worked out. Mr. Willink also made it plain that the whole building programme would be controlled. He made it plain that in the early years after the war the local authorities would be expected to bear the greater part of the burden, but he also made it clear that, in proportion, as it was possible to relax controls, to avail ourselves of private enterprise and to enable people who wished to build houses for themselves and occupy them to do so, this would be done. Nothing that my right hon. and gallant Friend and I have said today is inconsistent with that.
  I draw attention to the fact that these very heavy building costs, in the opinion of the controller of the London County Council, have made out of date the whole basis upon which the subsidies of the Act of 1946 were calculated. I welcome one thing that the Minister said today. I gather that he deprecates, as I do, the subsidising of rents of new houses beyond the statutory minimum of £5 10s. But if that burden is to be put, as I think it should be put, upon the tenants who are to occupy those new houses, then indeed the cost of building will be a very great burden upon the tenants. It would be most unjust if the rates were used to subsidise the rents of these costly new

  1849
  houses. It would mean that those people who live in worse houses would be expected to pay enhanced rates to reduce the rents chargeable to those occupying the latest and best houses. The Minister of Health has not faced up to the gravity of this issue. A clever debating speech will not really he considered an answer by those people who are suffering now from inflated building costs.
  6.23 p.m.
  Mr. Pritt: I and my colleagues think that on balance the Government are failing in their duty to house and rehouse the people, but in feeling that, we have very little sympathy with the criticisms of the Opposition. I accept a great deal of the case put forward by the Government in their own defence. For example, the observations of the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) seemed to be almost exactly correct, within their limits. It is perhaps a little insolent on my part to comment on them in that strain when he knows these matters much better than I do, but to the best of my belief it seemed to me that he was right. There is no doubt that the Government have done infinitely better than the Tories would have done. There is no doubt that they have brought about the building of houses of a very good standard; but they have not done nearly enough.
  The fact remains that the number of people waiting to be decently housed seems, at any rate in my constituency, to be increasing rather than decreasing. The battle, if it could be called a battle, between the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and the Minister will build no houses, and seemed to be rather remote from the situation. It was really like a cat and mouse episode except that the Minister, with his usual gentleness, refrained from actually eating the mouse, who is still there.
  The sort of criticism that we wish to make is, for example, that rents are much too high. I think that 32s. 6d. a week for a three-bedroomed flat in a good building in London is a usual charge. I do not suppose that hon. Gentlemen opposite would want to reduce such a rent. The Minister justifies it fully on a financial basis. But what is the good of justifying it when the net result is the working-
  1850
  classes cannot pay? I have nothing to say against the Hammersmith Borough Council or the London County Council. The Borough Council has built a very fine block of flats in my constituency for example. The workers worked with real enthusiasm because they were on a decent job. The flats are well built and nice to live in, but the rents are such that one working-class family after another, desperately needing rehousing and earning at least the average wage for the country, and generally more, simply could not take them. Sometimes they were told that they could not even have an offer, because it was clear that they could not pay the rent. Those flats are now occupied by all sorts of miscellaneous people. They are perfectly reasonable and worthy people who, for one reason or another, happen to have the money to pay what is, in substance, a middle-class rent.
  Associated with that is the problem that not nearly enough building is being done. The Minister and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Scottish Universities quarrelled about how much is being done. The Minister makes a very good case with the fact that when one builds to better standards one cannot build quite so many houses. That is absolutely true. I agree entirely that he should stick grimly to his standards. Incidentally, the very fine block of flats which I mentioned is not in my constituency, it is in the other half of the borough, but it was built very largely to house my constituents. Those flats illustrate the trouble about standards. I congratulated the borough architect about one point and another in them, and he replied, "Yes, that is all right, but the Ministry of Health will not let us do it so well again because they have cut the standards." However, it is a relatively small cut. The Minister's case that he is maintaining standards and that he must maintain them is on the whole, sound.
  But I am confronted by constituent after constituent who says, "We are five in a room," "We are six in a room," or "We are seven in a room." They say, "There is no bath; we are a long way from the lavatory; there is this difficulty, and that difficulty." The borough authorities tell them that their need is recognised but that they cannot have accommodation for a very long time. I turn to the borough to ask about these

  1851
  matters. Whatever other troubles we may have in my excellent constituency, troubles which do not stop it from being 100 per cent. Labour in all respect, they do not prevent me from getting on very well with my borough officials. I say to them, "What about that?" They reply, "We are very sorry. It is true that we have to refuse these cases, but we are doing our best. We were the only borough in London without a single house vacant when we made a return the other day. We are building as hard as we can, and so are the county council." They just cannot house all the people; and, where they can house them, the houses are at such high rents that half the people are automatically excluded. One does not get the real measure of the horror until one goes about among the people, and until one realises the relief of those lucky enough to be rehoused. When one of my constituents was told recently that he was to be rehoused, he, literally and physically, had a fit, simply from the overwhelming sense of relief.
  The Minister is too complacent. He says that if we calculate percentages of earnings and rents people are not really being asked to pay any more rent than some years ago. The answer to that is that those years ago people could not get properly housed, so there is nothing new in that. What the Minister ought to be able to claim is that we are doing very much better with housing, and not merely that we are doing just as well.
  Where do the faults lie? Some have been pointed out already by a number of hon. Members. Land costs are really fabulous, and I do not think it is unfair to say that the Government are doing nothing about it. I did not have the honour of attending the conference at Blackpool, but one or two hardy gentlemen there raised the question of the nationalisation of land. They are still alive and have not been compelled to join my group, but they did not get very far. Then, interest costs make a difference of a good many shillings a week, and a variation of one-half per cent. can make a good deal of difference. The Government have not cut interest costs down, but have let them go up.
  On the question of charges for materials, we have had a Report recently from the Ministry of Works on the Dis-
  1852
  tribution of Building Materials and Components, which made some fairly striking observations, so striking, in fact, that they were struck out of the Tory newspapers. The Report also referred to wide margins in the costs of materials of which practically every one is subject to restrictive practices, and made recommendations that the prices of materials should come down. I hope the Government are trying to do something about it, but they have not come down a penny yet. Labour costs have been dealt with very well by the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson). If any real security was given to building operatives there would be a great deal more inspiration and encouragement, and, in spite of the rise in the average ages of building workers, their output would soon show a more favourable comparison than the hon. Member for Kennington says it does now.
  One remedy is a greater use of direct labour, but the Minister was so busy putting his paw on and off the mouse that he did not mention it. I think I can say that in my constituency the adoption on a larger scale of direct labour has already led to a great deal more enthusiasm and enterprise and to cheaper and quicker construction, although, so far as I can tell, building by private enterprise is working better there than most private enterprise activities in most places. I am sure that a great deal can be done to improve methods of building, but the Minister pointed out that he was severely limited by timber supplies, and said we are using about half as much timber per house as we used to do. I have the authority of a very able building technician to say that we can very well build houses with half the timber the Minister is now using, and that there has not been sufficient investigation into that and similar matters, or not nearly enough adoption of the results.
  The Minister touched on one or two of the more general causes of shortage of houses when he talked about the wood which, he said, we could not get from Canada or Sweden without the expenditure of dollars or something like dollars and which we should have to balance against the wheat supplied to us from Canada. But is there no timber anywhere else? Has not the Soviet Union been asking us for four years to supply them with timber-cutting machinery in

  1853
  return for which it will give us plenty of timber? Has not Roumania been asking us to give them tractors, as a result of which we should get their timber? That is the sort of thing that is most important. It is not the Minister's fault that the foreign policy of the country is so bad that it prevents him building houses, but it is a matter for investigation and a matter for him to press the Cabinet to deal with.
  The real trouble is the restriction of expenditure on building. I do not accept the story that as soon as we start building more rapidly we find that we cannot get the materials or the men. We should remember the building we did for the Americans during the war, which provides a good answer to any argument that we cannot build faster if we want to. We cannot, however, build fast, and at the same time spend £2 million every 24 hours on armaments.
  Mr. Cluse: The hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the houses built for the American soldiers during the war being built quickly, yet he is now saying that we cannot build houses quickly and spend £2 million every day at the same time.
  Mr. Pritt: If the hon. Gentleman will wait he will hear how it is possible. The story arises in this way. We are told that we need Marshall Aid, and, some weeks ago, Mr. Finletter, who was so extravagantly praised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer three weeks ago—the Chancellor said he was so charming that the more he was with him the more he wanted to give him, so it is perhaps just as well that he went away in the end—had to defend, before the Foreign Relations Committee of the U.S. Senate, the reduction of our expenditure on housing as sufficiently great to justify the supply of further Marshall Aid for ourselves. He stated that the policy of the British Government is to put as much as possible of its efforts into exports, especially to dollar countries, and into pure capital expenditure, and to cut down "Governmental Consumption," by which he meant the social services, including housing, health and education.
  It is interesting that the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities thought that we were balancing
  1854
  between housing on the one hand and hospitals and schools on the other.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. and learned Gentleman should listen to what is said before he quotes it. I never said anything of the sort. I said that we should have both.
  Mr. Pritt: I thought the right hon. and gallant Gentleman did, but I was wrong to bring him in because what he said was of no great importance.
  Some people have said that we were balancing one against the other, and Mr. Finletter told the Senate that we were cutting down. He said that in 1946 we spent 26.2 per cent. of our resources on this form of Government consumption, that we got it down to 20.7 per cent. in 1947, to 18.2 per cent. in 1948, and that, according to him, we are budgeting to cut it down to 16.8 per cent. in 1952, and that that is the official British Government policy and practice. When Senators said that they did not believe that the British were cutting down their housing programme, Mr. Finletter said, "Oh, yes they are; they have now seriously cut down their housing, health and education." He went on to quote what is superficially true, as the Tories assert, that there are fewer houses being built in this country today than in 1938 and that a smaller percentage of the national product is being expended upon them. The Minister gives the answer that we have quite rightly concentrated an enormous part of our house-building effort in building houses for the working classes, but the fact remains that we are now building fewer houses, that the Government are not going to build more, and that the Tories are not asking the Government to build more.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. and learned Gentleman must not go on making these fantastic and absurd statements. We have asked the Government to build more, we asked them today to build more and we still ask them now to build more. Now withdraw.
  Mr. Pritt: I referred not to the right hon. and gallant and egotistical Gentleman but to Tories generally; and until he can get his party into such discipline that no Member of it says anything different from what he says, I shall not withdraw.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman accept my assurance—
  Mr. Pritt: No, I will not. I am not giving way any more. Sit down.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. and learned Member cannot take it.
  Mr. Pritt: I shall take it from a grown man, not from a mouse.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. and learned Gentleman's party leadership has gone to his head.
  Mr. Pritt: It would be simpler if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had a head into which anything could go, because then he would think before he interrupted, and would interrupt less.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: That is not good enough for a party leader.
  Mr. Pritt: I am not a party leader any more than is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman; I am the leader of a small but growing group, and not even the leader, but the chairman. However, let us get on with the work, because this is important.
  The Government are not, in fact, extending their building programme. The Minister, of course, can explain anything, and can score off most of his opponents, but unless he can break through this American plus Cabinet ruling that he is not to build more he cannot stop the queues of tragically homeless and unhoused people from growing.
  What is the obvious remedy for this? Some of the remedies could act quickly and some only slowly. First, of course, take the land, either piecemeal at reasonable rates, and not at the fabulous rates mentioned by the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson), or take the lot. Cut the interest rates; fix the prices of building materials, and cut through the combine profits; introduce a good many new methods in construction. I do not profess to be an expert, but I know from experts that there are many new ways of building which are, in fact, shouldered aside by the old traditional methods. The encouragement of direct labour would save a good deal. If we could expand the programme to such an extent that the workers in the industry felt really secure, and did not need to
  1856
  fear that an extra drive would put them out of a job next time there was a seasonal fall, that would help a lot. Those are all remedies for speeding up building and keeping prices down.
  The remedy for building more is, of course, to enlarge the programme and to spend more money. I think it is right to say that an increase of the Government's subsidy is something which might very well have to follow. I notice that the Association of Municipal Corporations has, in the last day or two, provisionally put forward that demand. I am inclined to think that if one carried out every improvement increased subsidies might conceivably be unnecessary, but I doubt it. We certainly cannot have, and cannot view with the complacency which the Minister seems to possess, a position in which, with a great deal of efficiency from the Government and from councils, we are not only getting too few houses, but rents which the normal worker simply cannot pay. The subsidy is an answer to that, and it may well be the only answer. We must certainly build more, and we must certainly build faster and put a larger percentage of capital expenditure into houses. Above all, we must certainly defy the orders of Mr. Finletter.
  6.44 p.m.
  Mr. Gammans: I am indeed fortunate in that I believe myself to be the first hon. Member of this House who has had the good fortunate to congratulate the new party on its initial pronouncement of policy. I note that the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) is making an appeal for recruits, and I trust that as a result of his speech this afternoon he will get some. I am not quite sure what is his party's policy with regard to housing. I gather that he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health when he said a short time ago that at the next General Election housing was not likely to be an issue. The only other thing I gathered from his speech was that if we would take his advice and go quietly on to the other side of the Iron Curtain, many benefits would come to us, including better and cheaper houses.
  I am sorry the Minister is not here, because I wanted to comment on his speech. As he is rather meticulous in these matters, perhaps I had better, first

  1857
  of all, tell him what my interest is in housing apart from the general interest of all of us in housing.
  Mr. Pritt: In fairness to the Minister, I think it ought to be understood that while Mr. Finletter is managing our housing the right hon. Gentleman has to obey instructions to attend the celebrations in connection with American Independence Day.
  Mr. Gammans: I shall deal with the Minister and with Mr. Finletter in due course. With regard to my interest in building, perhaps I had better tell the Government that before the war I caused to be built some thousands of houses at about one-third the cost at which they are being put up today.
  Mr. Shurmer: What sort of houses were they?
  Mr. Gammans: They were two, three and four-bedroom houses, but their price was approximately one-third of what it is now, and they were mostly built to rent. Another thing is that I should like to have a house myself in which to live.
  I wish to refer to the speech of the Minister; we always like to listen to him, whether he is talking about housing, the Press, or anything else. He is a magnificent debater; the worse his case, the better he puts it over. But he did not answer the two main charges made by my right hon. and gallant Friend against the Government. The first was that with approximately the same number of men in the building industry as before the war, we are not putting up anything like the same number of houses. That is the first of our charges. When the Minister asks, "What are you charging us with? How would you do better?" our answer is quite simple. We say that we managed to build so many houses before the war, and that we can see no earthly reason why it should not be possible to build the same number after the war.
  The right hon. Gentleman may say that timber is limited. If he does—I shall not go into an argument as to whether or not we could get it from other sources—and if timber limits the number of houses built, then we say that the labour force engaged in the industry should be according to the number of houses for which timber is available. The fact that we are using as many men as before the
  1858
  war and are not putting up anything like the number of houses is our main charge this afternoon. I suggest to the Committee that that fact has not been explained, certainly not by the Minister himself or by any of the hon. Members who spoke on his behalf.
  The other charge, made by my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson), is with regard to the Girdwood Report, and especially the point that, by and large today, there are three men doing the job which two were doing before the war. The hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) said that it was better than that in respect of the L.C.C. houses. I hope it is true, but it is obviously not better in the country as a whole. We should either see fewer men in the industry or the same number of houses going up as before the war. Why is there this unproductivity of labour? I think there are many reasons.
  Last week I spent a day haymaking. I tell the Committee this entrancing piece of news, not because I want them to congratulate me or to commiserate with me, but because a fellow who was pitching hay with me at the bottom of the escalator was a bricklayer. I said to him, "Why in the name of conscience are you pitching hay? Why are you not laying bricks? Down in the village there are six houses which have been awaiting completion for the best part of a year." He said, "Oh, we do not work today." I asked him why not, and he said, "So far as I am concerned, if I work today I shall be liable to Income Tax at 6s. in the £1, and I am blessed if I am going to give this or any other Government 6s. in the £1." That may or may not be the reason for the present state of affairs.
  Mr. Shurmer: What was his employer doing?
  Mr. Gammans: His employer was not pitching hay so I could not ask him. How would the hon. Gentleman suggest that the man's employer could make him go—at the point of a pitchfork or how? I suppose that what he got for pitching hay was not subject to Income Tax, if the truth were known.
  Those are the two charges we have made against the Government, and I hope that some hon. Member opposite will tell us why it now takes three men to do what two did before the war. I

  1859
  hope someone on the other side will also tell us why, with the same number of men in the building industry, they cannot turn out anything like the required number of houses.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: Apparently the hon. Gentleman did not listen to the very interesting speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) who pointed out that today, at any rate for the county for which he is partly responsible, the building rate is at least equal to that of pre-war.
  Mr. Gammans: If that were the case in the country as a whole we should be more than gratified and, what is more, I assure the hon. Gentleman that we should be the first to congratulate him not only on his good red herring debating speech, but on building more houses; we would far sooner congratulate him on that than on anything else. It was stated that it is hoped that the number of houses proposed to be built this year would be of the order of 200,000. If the output per man for the country is going to be what the hon. Member for Kennington said it would be for the L.C.C., we can expect in the near future that a large proportion of productive labour can be moved to another productive industry.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: Do I understand that private enterprise does not accept any sort of responsibility for this at all?
  Mr. Gammans: The hon. Gentleman's Government are controlling all our public life. They cannot have it both ways. They control everything. When the results are bad, they blame private enterprise. We managed to get better results with private enterprise. Why cannot the present Government? The builders are the same, the houses are very largely the same, and the people who are laying the bricks are the same. We got better results; why cannot the hon. Gentleman and his Government?
  Mr. Blenkinsop: Is the hon. Gentleman referring to pre-war housing? Did he listen to the very proper strictures of my hon. Friend on the quality of the houses which were then built?
  Mr. Gammans: That is one of the old red herrings again. The hon. Member for Kennington talked about the slums
  1860
  in London. If there are slums in London, I should like to know how long has Labour controlled the London County Council. If jerry-built houses were put up in London, what has happened to the L.C.C. who have not only the power but an obligation to inspect new premises?
  I should like to put to the hon. Gentleman one point with which I hope he will deal. One section of the Ridley Report—a famous document by this time—suggested that as soon as there is any sort of stability in the building industry, an expert and technical committee ought to be set up to go into the question of costs of repairs. Is there any earthly reason why that committee should not be set up now? I cannot see why it should not have been set up years ago. I think the Committee are entitled to know by what percentage the cost of the repairs of houses has increased. Tenants of council houses, who have their rents increased arbitrarily because of the increased cost of repairs, are entitled to have that increase measure against something. I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would tell us if the Government, during their remaining life, propose to set up such a committee, and if not why not.
  I want to come on to the second point, about costs. I do not understand hon. Members opposite because whenever we raise the question of costs they imply that there is something rather disgraceful in talking about the subject. But are we not all interested in costs? Is it not the duty of every hon. Member in this Committee to see that the money which is taken out of the taxpayer's pocket is properly spent? If hon. Members opposite are as keen on the social services as they pretend they are, every time they see a case of extravagance by the Government they ought to say to themselves, "There goes my new hospital," or, "There goes the park which I hoped to see in my constituency," or, "There go some social services for which I have long wished." Until hon. Members opposite can get that attitude, neither this nor any other Government will be efficient or will cease to be extravagant. When we raise the question of costs, instead of hon. Members opposite trying to pretend that we want jerry-built houses or to shove people down in cellars, they ought to co-operate with us and ensure

  1861
  that this matter of costs is properly tackled.
  I warn hon. Members opposite, if they do not realise this already, that this present housing programme is going to topple on the issue of costs, if it does not topple for other reasons as well. No country could possibly stand the cost today of building houses. It is quite impossible that we should house four out of every five people at the expense of the taxpayer and of the ratepayer. The hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) should not grin. I say it is physically and financially impossible, and no country could stand it. Therefore, hon. Members opposite ought to co-operate with us.
  Mr. Austin: This argument regarding costs is most interesting. Would the hon. Gentleman go into more detail as to which type of costs he is talking about? Does he wish to see economies in wages, profits or the cost of materials?
  Mr. Gammans: I want to see economies in all of them. I sincerely want to see economies in the cost of materials. If hon. Members make these dark innuendoes about rings, why do they not go to the Commission which has been set up to investigate monopolies? We supported the Government in that Measure, and if they had not brought it in we should have brought it in ourselves. [Laughter.] It is perfectly true. It was in our Election programme.
  Mr. Shurmer: A lot of things in the Opposition's election programme would not have been carried out.
  Mr. Elwyn Jones: Is the hon. Gentleman now suggesting price controls for building materials, over and above the present range of controls?
  Mr. Gammans: We have building controls already. Timber is controlled in that the Minister of Supply imports it. We do not consider that to get prices cheaper it is necessary to clap on more controls. We much prefer to see prices come down by means of the ordinary laws of competition. What can be done to get these prices down? I warn the Committee that this building programme will topple on the question of costs. What will happen?
  1862
  If hon. Members opposite, when they have finished listening to me, care to look at the evening papers, they will see that one urban district council cannot find tenants for their council houses because people cannot pay the rents. These houses are now being put up with a subsidy. Subsidies were primarily intended for that section of the population which could not afford an economic rent—people on the lower income scales. Those people are going to be driven into the older houses owned by private individuals who are not allowed to raise their rents, and the council houses which were originally intended for a special section of the population are going to be used by the population as a whole.
  How can costs be brought down? The hon. Member for Kennington has told us about an incentive scheme. I hope that what he told us is correct. If that incentive scheme is as successful as he told us it was, why cannot we adopt it all over the country? Up to now the Ministry of Health has lost the battle for incentives. I saw in a newspaper on Saturday a remark made at the architects' conference, I think, by an architect who said that the cost of the tea interval morning and afternoon was £50 a house. Is that figure right or not? If it is right, there is something drastically wrong with the incentive scheme of this Government. Now, £50 a house, I think I am right in saying, is another 9d. a week rent in perpetuity for the tenant who has to live in the house.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: I think the hon. Member might like to know that already something like 30 per cent. of local authorities who are using direct labour schemes are operating a bonus scheme. Unfortunately, at the moment a smaller proportion of private contractors are operating a bonus scheme. We are doing all we can to encourage it.
  Mr. Gammans: I am glad to know that. Can the Minister do no more than give verbal encouragement? Is it not possible to go further than that? Cannot clauses be inserted in the contract? After all, lots of other clauses are inserted in the contract—why not this one?
  Mr. Blenkinsop: I thought the hon. Member wanted private enterprise.
  Mr. Gammans: The Parliamentary Secretary knows that clauses have been

  1863
  inserted in building contracts by local authorities for many years. Does the Parliamentary Secretary stand for an incentive scheme or does he not? If he does, why cannot it be inserted as a clause in the contract? I will give way to the hon. Member if he cares to answer. Apparently he does not, so I shall continue.
  My last point is this: I really should like to find out from the Government what is the underlying principle which demands that four out of five houses shall be built with a subsidy whether the people who live in the houses need the subsidy or not. May I give two examples? Every Friday night I sit in my constituency and people in trouble, either real or imaginary, come to see me. I had a man in the other night who posed to me a question which I could not answer. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can answer it. He said, "I have saved nearly enough money to buy a house. All that I have not saved I can borrow. I am willing to build a house for myself and I want it to be only what is regarded today as standard size—three bedrooms. Nevertheless, I have been told I cannot build a house. The local authority in whose district I want to build have told me it will be years and years and years before they get round to me, but they have said that I can live in a subsidised house." Does that make rhyme or reason—that where there is a man who is willing to put up his own house, and who has his own money, the Government should come along and say, "No; you shall not use your own money. We will put you in a house exactly the same size and we will let it to you at a subsidised rate with taxpayers' and ratepayers' money"?
  I will give another example. Some years ago a friend of mine bought a farm—and a pretty derelict farm it was, too. He agreed with the agricultural committee to set up a T.T. herd of cows. Cows need cowmen, and so he proposed to put up two cottages for the cowmen. They said, "Oh, no; you cannot have two cottages for the cowmen; the cowmen may live in a council house a mile-and-a-half away." He first of all asked me whether the Ministry of Agriculture had any pamphlets on milking cows by remote control. I said I doubted whether they had. He then pointed out that not only was it fatuous that cowmen should live
  1864
  one-and-a-half miles away, but what was equally fatuous was that when he proposed to put up the money for the houses they came along and said, "No, you shall not put up your own money; the Government will put it up for you and the cowmen shall live in subsidised houses."
  Mr. Dye: Was it a Tory Council?
  Mr. Gammans: What I am asking is, what is the underlying principle of this system of four out of five? This affects not just the Ministry of Health, but it affects the Government as a whole. I suppose somewhere in the archives of the Socialist Party there is a picture of what we may call a perfect man under Socialism. I suppose he is somewhat a replica of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the sense that first of all he is a man who works hard. He is a man who is prepared, if necessary, to do a lot of overtime and who does not worry about "pay as you earn"; a man who does not waste too much of his substance on dog-tracks, drink or cigarettes; and a man, above all, who is prepared to invest his money in National Savings. I suppose we should regard him, as would hon. Members opposite, as a very worthy citizen, the sort of citizen to whom these appeals are always being made by the Prime Minister and others although, on the whole, I think, very largely in vain. Nevertheless, that is the ideal.
  How are we going to encourage this man? I think the first thing we have to do, if we want him to save money and if we want him to work hard to save money, is to give him something to save money for; and I suggest to the Committee that the overwhelming percentage of people who want to save money want to do so in order to buy themselves a house. Therefore, if the Government really want to build houses without this staggering cost to the taxpayer and ratepayer, they should encourage people to build their own houses and to save for that purpose. If the Government want to save the National Savings scheme—and judging by the latest figures the word "save" is probably the right word to use—they should encourage people to build their own houses. If they want to encourage people to do more work, again, give a man a chance to build his own house.
  These are our two main charges against the Government. I suggest that neither

  1865
  has been answered. The Government have not told us why they require this enormously larger labour force than we required before the war to do the same job. They have not told us what they are going to do to prevent the next Gird-wood Report saying that it required three men to do what two men did before the war.
  7.7 p.m.
  Mr. Dye: I am very glad to have an opportunity to take part in a Debate on housing, because it is a practical job and I like applying both my hand and my mind to a practical job. I am equally pleased to follow the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) because he has told two stories which, if true, reflect on a certain council. If a farmer went to a rural district council with a proposition to build houses for his cowmen and the reply from that council was as the hon. Member has said then the only purpose of that reply could be to sabotage the housing effort of the country, because the rural district council, as such, has no interest in limiting the number of houses built for cowmen. The chief interest in granting the necessary licences for building houses for agricultural workers lies with the Ministry of Agriculture and its county executive committees. If, therefore, neither the man nor the farmer went to that authority, then obviously they went to the wrong place; they went to a Tory council which, like many others, are not interested in increasing the number of houses built but are interested in trying to reflect upon the efforts of my right hon. Friend to get more houses built.
  Mr. Gammans: The hon. Member need not get too steamed up about this.
  Mr. Shurmer: Then the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) should not have said it.
  Mr. Gammans: I said it and I shall stick to it, too. The houses were built in the end, but a year was wasted and for a whole year that farm had no cows on it.
  Mr. Dye: We proceed a little further. We might get a further instalment of the little story which the hon. Member clearly wanted to tell both this House and the country, with a view to damaging the reputation of my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Gammans: Nothing I can do could do that.
  Mr. Dye: Of course, once people know a man, even if he be an hon. Member of this House, they will take what he says for what it is worth.
  The hon. Member said at the beginning of his speech that he was interested in house building, particularly before the war. I take it that part of his interest in building houses before the war was under the Land Settlement Association. No people in this country built worse houses than were built under the guidance of the hon. Member for Hornsey. He has been arguing for decreased costs in house building. Under the guidance of the hon. Member for Hornsey, on one estate of that association in the North of England they even cut the cost of houses by £10 per house by eliminating felt under the roof.
  Mr. Gammans: Again, before the hon. Member gets steamed up too much, I think he ought to know that the plans for all the houses by that association had to be approved by the Ministry of Agriculture, and that the amount to be spent on them had to be approved by the Ministry of Labour.
  Mr. Dye: I am not in the least concerned about what a Tory Minister of Agriculture did. I am glad the hon. Member admits that what I said is true—that the way to cut costs in the initial building of housing is to eliminate things which are essential, and which, in a few years' time, have to be put in at three times the cost. That is the Tory way. I am very glad to have had the hon. Gentleman's attention. If we want to see how not to build houses we should go into Bedfordshire and see those that were built by the Land Settlement Association. "Rural slums" is too good a name for them. They are little rabbit hutches stuck on the edge of a concrete road without a shrub, without gardens, without any amenities whatsoever.
  Mrs. Nichol: Disgraceful.
  Mr. Dye: They were completed less than 15 years ago, and the hon. Member for Hornsey now comes along in this Committee to criticise the Government for their housing policy on the ground

  1867
  that they are spending too much. He has been a standing example of how not to do it. Now somebody has to come along to take the responsibility for the Land Settlement Association estates, and to try to make them places fit for people to live in—which the Association completely failed to do, for as soon as the tenants could get out of them they got out of them, and squatters and others went along to occupy them. So, as the hon. Member for Hornsey said, we can take for what it is worth what anybody says, even on the matter of housing.
  I rose really to speak particularly of rural housing, for I have been a member of a rural district council for the past 16 years and have taken a very great interest in rural housing. The problem of the cost of building those houses is an important one. We do not want the cost of building to go up too high, so that rents are beyond what agricultural workers and other rural workers can afford to pay. I am glad to be able to say that I am a member of a rural authority that has built a large number of houses since the war. The number that has gone out to tender already exceeds the total number built by the same council before the war. The post-war houses completed by the end of this year, within four and a half years of the end of the war, will equal the total numbers that were built before the war—and they started to build in 1913. That shows that progress can be made where local authorities are determined to overcome the housing problem along the lines of the Government's policy.
  On the question of cost, we found, as members of that council, that by putting out to tender, by endeavouring to put in the best possible construction and amenities into the houses, the price was creeping up; at one period it got to £1,500 per house. That would have meant charging the tenants a net rent of at least 15s. a week, which, we concluded, was too much. As a result of the activities of the council and the architect and its other officers, and of negotiations with the building trade, we are now able to build houses at £1,250 apiece, and to let them at 12s. 6d. a week rent. That is being done in the Swaffham rural district, in my constituency. They are building them so rapidly that, having met all the
  1868
  immediate need for houses in the rural district, they are receiving, every day, applications from people from all parts of the country to go to live there, showing quite well that if council houses can be built and let at a rent of 12s. 6d. there will be plenty of applicants in rural England for them. Therefore, I should not say that £1,250 per house, taking all other things in consideration, is too high, bearing in mind the level of wages in agriculture.
  I should not say 12s. 6d. a week rent was too high for a house of three bedrooms, with electricity, with water supplies and water sanitation, and with built-in cupboards and other amenities, and hot and cold water, which we are now putting in all of the houses. Bearing in mind all these things I should not say that that is too high a price. If one rural district can do it why cannot all the others? They cannot do it unless the members of those councils take a personal and keen interest in the housing problem. If, as hon. Members tried to make out a little while ago, the replies that are made to people who would like to build houses for themselves are such as to discourage them, there is a sure indication that those councils—and there are many of them in rural England—still do not want to overcome the problem of housing which faces us.
  However, as I have said, where there is the fullest co-operation by the members of councils, their staffs and the regional officers of the Ministry, then headway can be made, and that rapidly. The time in which we are able to build houses at £1,250 apiece, from the time of commencement to the time of completion, has been reduced to six months. Again I ask, if one rural authority can do it—and I know others besides Swaffham Rural District Council are doing it—why cannot others?
  I know that there is the overall limitation of supplies, particularly of timber. That is bound to limit the total number of houses built, but where the contractors are able to marshal as they would like to—and now are able to, in many cases—the supplies of the necessary materials, and can call upon the skilled workers, then, with proper organisation, we can overcome this great problem.
  Captain Crookshank: What the hon. Member is saying is very

  1869
  interesting. What sort of numbers of houses is he talking about?
  Mr. Dye: It is open to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to learn from the Housing Returns that are published each quarter; I have already mentioned that I am referring to the Swaffham Rural District Council, which happens to be in Norfolk and my constituency. The number of houses completed by 31st March was 162.
  Captain Crookshank: Were they at the £1,250 level?
  Mr. Dye: Some of them were not £1,250. Earlier, some were completed at less than that. The figure then went up, and the contract prices are now around £1,250 per house. When one remembers that the population of this rural district is fewer than 8,000, the figure of 160 houses completed is not too bad; and the 240, which is the total number gone out to tender, also reflects great credit upon that council.
  Captain Crookshank: This is very interesting. Would the hon. Gentleman complete the picture by saying what proportion of the 160 houses were let to agricultural workers?
  Mr. Dye: I could not say off-hand, but in my village it was eight out of ten; and in most other villages the proportion is about the same. We set ourselves a minimum of six out of ten, and in most villages it is higher than that. To my knowledge, since the war only one agricultural worker who has gone into a new house has come out of it because he though the rent was too high. We are now getting an increasing number of agricultural workers who want to live in better houses than their old ones, and who are applying for the new houses. That is a very satisfactory state of affairs, reflecting great credit on those workers, on the farmers of the neighbourhood and, I believe, on the agricultural policy being pursued by the Government. I should like to see the same thing throughout the country.
  There has been some criticism about the sizes of the houses being built, and it is suggested that we could build more smaller houses. My council went into that question with a view of building bungalows for the old people; but for
  1870
  the accommodation provided the cost of building those bungalows would be much higher than the cost of building three-bedroomed houses. The Government are now coming along with their policy of reconstructing decent cottages, and I think there is a sufficient number of twobedroomed houses which can be reconstructed for elderly people or those with small families, and for a time we should pursue the policy of building cottages for the family. Nevertheless, we want many more.
  In certain parts of the country the need is greater than in others: for example, in those areas which were derelict before the war, where land had gone out of cultivation but was brought back into cultivation during the war. There are vast areas of such land in Norfolk, in the Fens. I have seen some in Cambridge, and I have seen the same problem in other parts of the country. In those areas we do not seem to be building new houses fast enough to supply permanent workers to work on that land, and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to say, in reply, what is the Government's policy in this respect. Where areas of land have been brought back into cultivation, but where there are no cottages for permanent workers on that land, are the Government going ahead to supply new cottages so that people may be established on land reclaimed during the war?
  In my opinion, that is the weak point in housing in rural areas. I know of two Fenland areas in Norfolk where land was brought back into cultivation during the war, largely with the aid of prisoner-of-war labour or European displaced persons—which is not a satisfactory method—where we now want to establish men, working either larger units or smallholdings, pursuing an agricultural policy enabling cattle, pigs, and so on, to be grazed and fed on the land as well as growing crops on it. That is something to which the Government should give their intention, to see if they cannot increase the supply of houses in those places.
  I apologise for keeping the Committee so long, but I am very keen to see our housing problems solved as quickly as possible, so that every family shall have a decent home, and amenities are available in the countryside as well as in the towns.
  7.26 p.m.
  Colonel Clarke: I deem myself fortunate in following the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye), because he has spoken of the needs of agricultural housing and housing in rural districts, and my only reason for desiring to take part in the Debate was because I felt that sufficient reference had not been made to this most important subject. We all listened to what he said with great attention; we know that he has practical knowledge of the subject, and I congratulate him on the work that has been done by his rural district council. Most of us know that today one of the great problems is the high rent of council houses and its reaction, in many places, on would-be occupiers among agricultural workers. That is becoming a serious matter in many areas.
  I should like to call attention to the fact that it is not only agricultural labourers, in the direct sense of the term, who need housing in the countryside. They may get assistance from the Minister of Agriculture about which the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk spoke, and from other agricultural sources, to influence local authorities to give them houses. There are many trades ancillary to agriculture: mechanics, the tradesmen in the villages, and veterinary officers who, in housing priority, do not rank directly with agricultural workers, but who need houses very badly and for whom provision must be made if we are to have a well-balanced agriculture.
  All Members for agricultural constituencies know the urgency of the problem. I get more letters about housing than about almost any other subject, and I have to reply that, by and large, housing is the affair of the district councils, and not that of the House of Commons or the county council, of which I am also a member. Nevertheless, when there is the opportunity I do everything possible to assist district councils in their onerous tasks, and I should like to pay tribute to these district councils, both rural and urban. All those I have come across have done tremendously good work. It is not an easy task, and not always a pleasant task. It is not easy for neighbours to sit down and decide who is to have a house and who is not. It is a most invidious task, and one which has been performed extremely
  1872
  well. But that does not remove the difficulties.
  It might help to increase the building of houses in the countryside if the ratio of privately built houses were increased. In most cases that would not reflect on the building of council houses. Many small builders who would willingly build one, or possibly two, houses for private persons could never face taking on a large contract for a number of council houses. In fact I do not believe there would be any prejudicial effect on the building of council houses.
  Sir Richard Acland: Would they not use up some of the timber that goes into council houses at present?
  Colonel Clarke: The question of timber is a difficult one. I may be alone in this, but I think that if there were more freedom more timber could be produced in the countryside. I know that that could be done on my estate without interfering in any way with the long-term planning of timber. There are a great many trees in most rural areas which could be utilised without spoiling the amenities or prejudicing the economic growing of timber.
  Sir R. Acland: Has the hon. and gallant Member any estimate of the quantity of timber that could be produced from a policy of felling British trees over and above what is already being done?
  Colonel Clarke: I am speaking of building houses in the countryside for agricultural workers, which involves a comparatively small number of houses compared with what the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) has in mind in the case of suburban and city areas. I am thinking of perhaps half a dozen houses in a parish.
  Sir R. Acland: It will use up a lot of timber. Is the hon. and gallant Member suggesting that we can get it from hedgerow trees?
  Colonel Clarke: Not necessarily from hedgerow trees. In the more wooded counties of England anyhow timber could be obtained if more latitude were allowed in the matter of licences.
  Mr. Collins: That felling is already going on; there is nothing to stop the felling of timber.
  Colonel Clarke: I can assure the hon. Member that to utilise the timber it is necessary to have a licence and that there is considerable difficulty, even if it is done with estate labour. I believe that if more latitude were allowed in rural districts something more could be done.
  That brings me to a question which is a rather thorny one, that of rehabilitation, which has not been touched on so far in this Debate. It is a very urgent matter in country districts. I do not want to be involved in a highly controversial discussion about service cottages. I know there is a feeling that it is a system which gives a man more control than he should have over the intimate life of his servant and neighbour. I know that that is the view of the Agricultural Workers' Union, and I can see the origin of it, but I feel that to do away with the service cottage would produce a far greater evil. It would greatly hamper agricultural production and would be prejudicial to a great number of agricultural workers. It would impede the freedom of many of the workers.
  If a worker wants to take on a job with another farm about three miles away, he does not want to walk that distance every day and have to take his dinner with him. It can generally be arranged that he takes over the cottage from the man who is leaving the job, which means he does not have to walk that distance but can get home for a hot dinner and give his wife any assistance she requires. I believe that if a plebiscite were taken among agricultural workers it would be found that more are in favour of retention of the service cottage system than are against it. It is a matter which will gradually solve itself, although we wish it could be solved more quickly. The time will come when practically every agricultural worker will be able to chose whether he prefers to live in a service cottage at a low rent or in a council house in the nearest village at a council house rent. We shall see what the answer is in due course, and I have very little doubt that there will not be a lot of empty service cottages.
  In some counties like Cambridgeshire, owing to the admirable way in which farming communities have been laid out, probably under the old manorial system, the farms are mostly in the villages, which
  1874
  is an ideal situation. It means that the men can live on the job as well as in the villages. It is possible that as time goes on and some areas are replanned both farms and cottages will be sited in villages.
  Could we not have rather more flexibility in the types of council houses? The types that are allowed at present are rather limited. I think I am right in saying that a three-bedroom house can be built with two double bedrooms and one small bedroom, but that it is not possible to have one double bedroom and two small bedrooms. I think that is a pity, because some families want that sort of accommodation, the family of a man and wife with one child and perhaps an aunt or an old parent or friend, as often happens, living with them. It may not matter particularly from the convenience point of view, but it makes a considerable difference in cost in building a council house. A little more latitude there might be a good thing.
  There is one other question on which I should like some guidance. I do not know what the Minister thinks should be done about averaging the rents of old and new council property. There is a tremendous disparity between those which have been built after the first war and those which have been built recently. Does he recommend that there should be a re-assessment throughout a rural district and some common mean arrived at? That would be an advantage to some and a disadvantage to others. I think if the new rents remain high it will mean that to a certain extent older people living on pensions will gravitate to the older houses and the young families will get the newer houses. I should like to have some idea of what the Minister thinks about that.
  As I have said, certain difficulties are put in the way of private owners who wish to build houses. I came across a new difficulty the other day, and that was from the water authority. I was trying to get permission to build two cottages. I had found an excellent site, but I was not allowed to build because I was told that the water authority drew their water from underneath and that the sanitation from the cottages would affect the water supply. I do not know where I shall be able to build these cottages, because the water authority draw their water from a wide area. There is still

  1875
  a great demand for houses, as I am sure the Ministry is well aware. We all know something of the position from our correspondence. Some of the most pathetic cases are those where people have been unable to get houses, and this starts family troubles. We hope everything will be done to increase the number of houses, which is the root problem, and that the rural districts will have their full quota, and more if they can get it.
  7.41 p.m.
  Mr. Collins: A word should be said from this side of the Committee with regard to the matter mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) which deals with tied cottages. I agree that it would be undesirable and almost impossible to abolish completely the tied cottage in agriculture and in certain other industries. I agree, too, that in the long term the tied cottage problem will be solved by the building of sufficient, untied houses, but that is comparatively long-term, and meanwhile injustices continue. I see no reason at all why some action should not be taken now to remove those injustices. Evictions continue. In my division recently a man just over 40 died, leaving a widow and three children. He died on Tuesday, the landlord sent a wreath on Friday and a notice to quit on the following Tuesday. The widow and her three children were out of that cottage within five weeks.
  Colonel Clarke: What type of holding was it?
  Mr. Collins: The cottage was owned by a farmer.
  Colonel Clarke: What type of farm was it?
  Mr. Collins: A mixed farm. I do not understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
  Colonel Clarke: Was it a stud farm, where it was essential that a manservant should be employed, or was it a case that the widow could not do milking and so on, but where the work must be done and a man was necessary to look after the feeding of the stock?
  Mr. Collins: I do not think that that is a material point.
  Colonel Clarke: It is very relevant.
  Mr. Collins: I do not think it is a material point in my argument. In this case the cottage was given to another man, who lived a little further away, but was employed by the same farmer. There are cases of the kind where a worker gets injured and no longer is able to carry on with his work. There should be a code of conduct set up immediately, whereby such things do not happen, and where a farmer is assisted by the local authority and the farm workers union to overcome those difficulties. It would be equally undesirable if a farm worker were in a cottage and decided to leave agriculture and become a bus conductor, but nevertheless stayed in the cottage. There are difficulties on that side, too, and I hope all parties in this House and particularly those hon. Members connected with agriculture, will get together to avoid this evil of eviction until the long-term remedy comes along.
  I am very glad that the Debate has taken this turn and that mention has been made of the needs of rural areas. In my view, although the Government have provided nearly one million new homes and have an excellent record in this matter, a great deal remains to be done, particularly in the rural areas. There are two factors which in my view have changed the whole situation with regard to housing. One is full employment, which has enormously increased the demand for houses, and it is a factor which none of us must lose sight of. We on this side of the Committee believe that we can maintain full employment, which will vastly increase the potential demand for houses and everything else. The second thing is the standards of housing which are to be provided. The right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) said that in earlier years the Conservatives built houses where they were wanted.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I said they did it in the sphere of the cottage below £26 a year rent. That is the point I was making.
  Mr. Collins: Certainly the cottages in rural areas are rented below £26, but the numbers built in the rural areas when the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was responsible were hopelessly inadequate. Not merely were they inadequate, but the standards were extremely low. Recently I saw a report by the Somerset

  1877
  Rural Housing Committee, which referred to a survey they had made of nearly 27,000 houses, and of that number nearly 7,000 were found to be completely unfit for repair and only fit for demolition. Some 10,000 were in need of major repairs or structural alterations. That meant that 60 per cent. out of the number examined were really unfit for human habitation. That gives some idea of the immensity of the problem.
  It is not merely necessary to provide a separate home for each family. Some of the rural authorities in my area will achieve that objective certainly by the end of next year. They will have provided a separate home for every family on their waiting list, but we have a very large number of families who have seen this other accommodation and quite naturally desire it, because it is so much better than that which they are occupying. Reference was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) to slums in London. In the countryside there are slums as bad and as numerous as anything in any town with which I am acquainted. It is not merely that the only running water is what comes through the roof, but it is a fact that sanitation is almost entirely lacking, and the water supply is a matter of great difficulty.
  In my own town of Taunton there are houses or cottages where the only lavatory is an outside one in the street, shared by four houses, and where one water tap at the end of the street is the only supply. They are real slums. It is not now merely a case of the original conception, whether it was 750,000 or a million houses needed to supply each family with a separate dwelling, but it is clear that through full employment and the raising of the standard of houses we have a vastly increased demand for decent houses.
  Against that, the potential demand in my own county is for some 20,000 rural houses to replace those that are only fit for demolition or those which are substandard and need a great deal of repair and structural alteration. We have built fewer than 3,000. That is a great many more than were built in any previous comparable period, but large as it is, it is going to take something like 25 years not only to provide a separate house for every family, but to provide
  1878
  sufficient houses of the standard which people in my view rightly demand.
  How are we going to secure that improvement? Tribute has been rightly paid to the local authorities, but their accomplishments are not uniform. What is to be done with lagging local authorities, such as those who have said this year publicly that they have not yet started on their 1949 allocation? What is being done to prod them forward? The performance by local authorities, even within their own areas, is not uniform. Members who sit for rural areas will be aware of local authorities who have built all, or almost all, of their houses in one parish whereas in other parishes where the need may be only for six or eight houses, they have not started even one house because of difficulties about sites, water supply or sanitation.
  Nevertheless, the need in the neglected parishes is still acute for the people who are concerned. If we are to keep people in those parishes at work upon the land, the Ministry of Health must see that the local authorities spread their housing programmes over their whole areas where houses are wanted. Thus we shall get a uniform rate of advance not only among local authorities but within the area of each local authority.
  Mr. Joynson-Hicks: is the hon. Member suggesting that it would be advisable for a local authority to sacrifice the building of houses in places where it can complete them with sanitation, water and electricity, in order to build houses in other places where it cannot complete them with those amenities?
  Mr. Collins: No, I was not suggesting that the total number of houses should be in any sense sacrificed, but I am very far from being satisfied that such amenities cannot be provided. A case occurred only this week where it was proposed to build houses in a remote village. Objection was raised that tenders could not be obtained, and a long argument went on in the local council. Eventually, the matter was published in the Press, because it had been decided to advertise. Members of the council were against advertising, but through the insistence of one or two of the members, tenders were at last obtained.
  In regard to water, great advances have been made in the supply to rural areas,

  1879
  but I do not think enough advantage has been taken of small sources of supply which might be furnished to many areas. There are six or seven old American army camps near Taunton, in every one of which during the war a bore hole was made and machinery was in position by which sufficient water was obtained from that land to supply about 2,000 troops. Some of those camps are in the vicinity of villages that have no water at all. I have made inquiries about this matter and have found that only two of those water supplies are being used by local authorities. In other cases the works and the machinery have gone. I should like the Minister to write to local authorities inquiring whether there are such camps in their areas with disused water workings and if so, whether they could obtain water from them. In that way we could enable water to be supplied to villages which have no supply now. The operation would not cost a great deal and I believe it would enable houses to be built where they cannot be built at present.
  We all agree that there is not enough labour for the building of new houses. That is particularly the case in rural areas. I ask the Minister to tell us whether he has information about the extent to which the raising of the licence-free limit to £100 for houses and £1,000 in the case of factories has had any effect in withdrawing labour from the building of new houses. That point is important. In Taunton there is a housing site of 84 aluminium houses which had been in process of construction for two years. Only 12 of those bungalows are occupied but every one of the 84 is completely ready on the site. Occupation of the remainder is delayed because of difficulties connected with road works, sewers and concrete paths, which are not completed. Only 11 men have been employed upon them for months and months. Those men are working like heroes for seven days a week and until 9 o'clock at night but their numbers are inadequate for the job. This is a matter which requires attention.
  In conclusion I congratulate the Government upon what has been done and I ask for an assurance that the great need occasioned by the raising of housing standards and by full employment is recognised and that the special needs of rural areas are equally having attention.
  1880
  I ask that the proportion of our capital expenditure devoted to agriculture and to rural areas should be increased and that the necessary labour and materials for houses in the countryside should be diverted to rural areas as soon as possible.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. Fitzroy Maclean: I wish to detain the Committee for only a very few minutes to make a point which I think is important. I want to draw attention to the perfectly unscrupulous way in which the Government have misled the public over the housing question from the outset, even before they came into office. [Laughter.] An hon. Member opposite laughs, but I can tell him that there is very strong feeling on that point in my constituency, and particularly among people who voted Labour at the last General Election. I should like to start by recalling some of the election promises made four years ago. For instance, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
  "If the Labour Party is returned to power the housing situation would be clarified within a fortnight."
  [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] The hon. Member may disagree, but that was what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. And yet the situation is not yet clarified, as one can hear from the speeches from both sides of the Committee in this Debate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer went on to say:
  "As for housing, I think that can be dealt with within a fortnight."
  The Foreign Secretary said, in 1945:
  "I believe we could build four or five million houses and knock down any amount of wretched slums and rebuild our country in very quick time."
  What did he mean by "quick time"? The Government have had four years, and they have not built half a million permanent houses yet.
  Nor is it only by their election promises that the Government have misled the country. Statistics recording the progress which has been made since the present Government were in power are also extremely misleading. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) talked about providing more than a million new homes. What does he mean by "new"? What exactly does he mean by "homes"? Approximately half the houses which the Government claim to have "provided"

  1881
  are not newly built permanent houses. Some are temporary houses to which the Minister of Health referred contemptuously before he came into office as "steel boxes." Others are not new houses but existing houses, which have been reconditioned, requisitioned, repaired or readapted. Included in that figure quoted are even old Army huts.
  Mr. Collins: The houses which have been repaired probably took as much labour as building new houses. When I said "new homes," I meant exactly what I said. To most of the people occupying them, they are so infinitely better than whatever they were occupying before, that they are very much new homes.
  Mr. Maclean: I accept that, but there is an impression in the country, when figures of 750,000 or one million are quoted, that they refer to new permanent houses built, and that is not so. The true figure is something like half that number.
  I would like to go on to quote another case in which only some of the facts have been put before the public. It concerns housing conditions in my own constituency, in Lancaster. In his recent speech at Blackpool the Minister quoted some figures which were apparently designed to show how great an improvement there had been, and how satisfactory conditions now were in the City of Lancaster. As far as the figures went, they were correct. But they were nevertheless extremely misleading, for the Minister left out a very important figure from the report he was quoting. It was the estimated excess of families over houses, which was no less than 2,140, a not inconsiderable figure for a city with a population of 50,000.
  From the large number of constituents who complain to me about their housing conditions, I can tell the Minister that the situation in Lancaster is highly unsatisfactory. I can tell him of any number of young couples who have been married several years and who cannot live together because they cannot get a house. I can tell him of people whose marriages have been broken up from having to live at too close quarters with their mothers-in-law. That has happened again and again. I can tell him of families who are in danger of permanently harming their health, and particularly the health of their children, through the insanitary conditions under which they are living.
  Mr. Shurmer: Do not talk like that. I shall tell the hon. Member something in a minute.
  Mr. Maclean: Those are people who voted Labour because they were told that the housing situation would be settled in a fortnight. Those are people who spent five or six years in the Services and were misled by the promises of the Minister to "the returning soldier yearning for a home." They are still yearning. When they go to the housing authorities they have to be told that no hope can be held out, not for a fortnight but for several years. These are largely people who voted Labour at the last Election.
  Mr. Collins: Is the hon. Member aware that anyone who had the good sense to vote Labour at the last Election could not possibly have been so foolish as to think that the housing problem could have been settled in two weeks?
  Mr. Maclean: The fact remains that some people assumed that responsible leaders of the Labour Party meant what they said.
  Mr. Percy Wells Mr. Percy Wells (Faversham) rose—
  Mr. Maclean: I cannot give way any more. Whatever hon. Members opposite say, the housing situation, after four years of Labour Government, is extremely serious. After the number of Government promises which have been made, and after the degree of Government interference which has occurred at every level, the responsibility cannot be shifted either to the local authorities or to the building trade. Nor can it be laughed off with the old tag about 20 years of Tory misrule, because the housing figures were, in general, very much more satisfactory for the years before 1939 than they are now, as several of my hon. Friends have shown. No, the responsibility rests fairly and squarely with the Government and, in particular, with the Minister of Health.
  In his speech the Minister made a rather obscure reference to a white sheet. The white sheet is the traditional garb of the penitent, and my advice to him is that the best thing he can do with his white sheet is to wrap himself in it. It is all very well for the Minister to dwell on the difficulties he is encountering and to try to distract attention from the mess he is making of things by attacks on the Opposition who, he seems to forget are not in

  1883
  power at the moment. None of this releases him from the "firm and direct pledges"—I quote from "Let Us Face the Future" issued at the time of the General Election—to which the Labour Party undoubtedly owe many of the votes cast in their favour.
  Mr. Edward Porter: And at the by-elections?
  Mr. Maclean: Nor does it release them from the promises which they have since made in order, as the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter) points out, to get a few votes from people who are still gullible enough to vote for them. Let me quote the Minister of Health himself. Three years ago—after he had been in power for a year or more, and had some knowledge of the facts of the situation—he said:
  "I confidently expect that before the next Election every family in Great Britain will have a separate house."
  He said that in May, 1946. In July, 1946, he said:
  "When the next Election occurs there will be no housing problem in Great Britain for the British working class."
  Then, a couple of months later, he said:
  "I give you this promise, that by the General Election there will be no housing shortage as far as the mass of the British people are concerned."
  He is rather like the bellman in the "Hunting of the Snark" in his belief that what he tells us three times is true. That was the promise, that there would be no housing problem and that every family in Great Britain would have a separate house by the next General Election. I want to know how that promise is to be fulfilled. The Minister may have three, six or 12 months before him; he knows better than we do how long he has. But the promises he has made are still a very long way from being fulfilled. I hope that, when he answers, the Parliamentary Secretary will give us a little more idea than we have been given up to date of how the Government propose to honour them. I cannot help feeling that the Minister would be very well advised to wipe off some of those outstanding accounts before he turns his attention to his next crop of Election promises.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. George Porter: I hope the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. F. Maclean) will forgive me if I do not follow his speech in view of the fact that we have learned our political mathematics in different schools and, therefore, must come to different deductions even on the matters referred to by him. I want to refer to only one aspect of the housing question in which I have to declare my interest. Like the late Jack Jones, I am a building trade operative by profession and a Member of Parliament by accident. Having spent the whole of my life in the building industry, I object to coming to this Committee and hearing so many people endeavouring to make a scapegoat of the operatives in the building industry and making them responsible for all the shortcomings of the housing question. In passing I want to refer to the Minister himself who in his closing remarks when taking credit for what had been done, said that certain people were to be congratulated. Those people were the Government, the local authorities and the builders. As one who believes that the only people who actually build houses are the operatives who use the raw material, I think they ought to come in for the congratulations, if congratulations are being made.
  In reference to the remarks made by the Opposition in an endeavour to pin the responsibility for the lack of housing on to the operatives, I have to refer them, and probably hon. Members on this side of the Committee, to the difference in the approach to the problem made by this Government and by those responsible for building before this Government came into office. It is all a question of for what purpose houses are being built, and this Government laid down a programme of house building so that people could live in those houses. Prior to the war, the majority of the houses built in this country were not built primarily for people to live in but primarily for some one to draw rent from. I say that, without fear of contradiction, as a result of my connection with the building industry and the housing programme.
  Before the war I saw the methods forced upon the artisans responsible for building houses. People talk about an incentive bonus that could be operated now. The incentive bonus that could be

  1885
  operated now is nothing to the incentive bonus operating before the war in spite of the disagreements with the unions concerned, when men were laying squares of flooring and nailing every third joist instead of every joist; when chaps were going into houses, trying a staff into every door frame in the house and shaving bits off until they found that the staff would go into the door casing of every door, and then going to the bottom floor and making the doors all one size irrespective of whether they were a good fit for the opening or not; when bricklayers were building walls without using a line and, when it came to fixing floor joists, putting various sized blocks under each joist to make it level, or knocking a piece out of the end of other joists so as to let them down. And all those considerations were purely and simply for the purpose of cheapening production.
  Today, having looked over some of the houses being built by the local authorities, I feel some pride in the fact that my fellow craftsmen have put their work into those houses. There are no "half crowns" on the newel posts of the houses—we call a half crown the mark of the claw hammer of the joiner or carpenter who usually leaves such marks by doing quick work in those houses where it does not matter whether the finish is good or bad so long as the production of the house is cheap. I say definitely that the houses today in cubic capacity are considerably larger than the houses that have been referred to, and the amenities in them are much better. If we are to have comparison, let us have comparison of like with like.
  Because of the type of industry in which they are concerned, it may be found difficult to make decent conditions for carpenters, bricklayers and other operatives on the building sites at the start. However there are certain developments in regard to the sites which could be made in the interests of the operatives but which are seldom made except by one or two decent firms.
  In laying the responsibility for what is taking place in the building industry on the shoulders of the operatives, it would be as well to remember what "The Times" said on 18th June, 1947, at the commencement of our building operations:
  1886
  "The building industry stands out among the nation's leading trades today for its poor output and general inefficiency. The gap between the performance of the best and the worst firms is enormous, but the industry as a whole still retains the place it has held for several generations as one of the least progressive and most wasteful of British industries, negligent of research, indifferent to innovation, and backward in management and welfare."
  Those are the circumstances in which the lads came back from the front, out of the munition factories, back from both the fields, with a real endeavour to build houses for peace.
  Major Tufton Beamish: Surely the hon. Gentleman will recollect that was written at a time when "The Times" was supporting the Government? It has ceased to support the Government now, so its views are probably much stronger today.
  Mr. Porter: I am giving it the credit of telling the truth, and if that was not the truth it was never refuted by any responsible member of the building industry. All members of the building industry are not being criticised. The hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) might be called one of the decent employers, but even he did not take the trouble to deny that statement.
  I want to refer to the summary reports of the Ministry of Works for January to December, 1948. It is rather humorous to read the section referring to the advisory service given in regard to building. The report says this with regard to assimilating the research taking place in the industry:
  "The Service endeavoured to achieve this by working in collaboration with the regional organisations of employers, operatives, and the professions, by discussing with individual builders and contractors problems which had arisen on the jobs and by arranging lectures and talks with groups of employers …."
  Therefore, even at this period of the building programme, we have reached the stage when it is necessary to get the employers together—at any rate, some of them—and give them a lecture. That can be appreciated by reference to Table II in relation to Building and Civil Engineering Industries. We find that nearly 124,000 firms are concerned in the industry. Altogether, they employ less than one million operatives between them. The number of firms who

  1887
  employ over 100 operatives is just over 1,000; of those who employ over 500 there are only 85. The point I want to emphasise is this. So far as the results already achieved are concerned, whilst anything can be put to the debit side of the operatives in the industry we should at the same time, when considering the credit side, give them credit for what they have achieved.
  From inquiries I have made I understand we are now getting back almost to the position we were in before the war. The comparable figures for the numbers of houses now being built and the number of workers engaged in that building—
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Not in the least.
  Mr. Porter: This is the result of my reading of the figures. That of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman may be different.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. Member should look at the figures of the Minister himself. The right hon. Gentleman tonight gave the figure of 200,000 houses, whereas before the war we were building 360,000.
  Mr. Porter: It would be better if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would listen to me instead of jumping up to controvert something I did not say. I said that we were gradually getting back to the situation existing before the war. To prove that, I was about to point out that the figures for houses built and of men employed on that building work show that we are getting down to a one and a half man hour year per house, which was the figure before the war, in spite of the fact that the houses now being built are very much better than they were in those days. I hope, therefore, whatever else may be said, that credit will be given to the operatives in the industry; that if right and proper development which should have taken place in the industry—again, I refer to "The Times," which says:
  "In the long run technical improvements in materials, tools, building methods, and forms of construction are likely to make the largest contribution to building efficiency, and it is in this direction that Government sponsored research … has been most energetically pursued."
  If development takes place along those lines, and every opportunity is given to
  1888
  the artisan to do a greater amount of work with a less expenditure of personal energy, we shall achieve a considerable development in the housing of this country.
  8.23 p.m.
  Mr. Marples: The contribution of the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. G. Porter) is particularly interesting to me on this occasion, for two reasons: firstly, he is a building operative while I control a firm of contractors; secondly, he is a Member of Parliament for Leeds, where my own firm is now building the superstructure and river works of the Skelton Grange Power Station. I propose, therefore, to trespass on his generosity and invite him to that site; and if he has any constructive suggestions to make to a building employer, they will be gladly heeded.
  Mr. G. Porter: I should never hope to tender the hon. Member any advice on building instruction, but I will tender him advice at any time on his politics.
  Mr. Marples: It will always be helpful to have the hon. Gentleman's advice. If he decides not to give advice on building that is his responsibility, but I am always willing to listen to advice from any building trade operative. Although the speeches of the hon. Member are always sincere, they are sometimes inaccurate as to the facts. At the end of his speech tonight, when talking about the present building labour force being the same size as before the war and that they were now building the same number of houses as pre-war, the hon. Member was in error to a considerable extent.
  I should like to pass from the speech of the hon. Member to that of the Minister. I very much regret the absence of the right hon. Gentleman this evening. He has been absent now from this Debate over two and a half hours, and it is somewhat discourteous to the Committee that he is not here. While I know the right hon. Gentleman has been out—to the American Embassy, I understand—on what may be an important engagement, knowing the power of the Minister's personality, his wealth of knowledge and his charm, I should have thought that a mere half an hour would have sufficed for him to make the impression that was necessary.

  1889
  I propose tonight to go into the question of timber and I had intended to ask the right hon. Gentleman some questions. As he is not present, perhaps the Committee will forgive me if I address those questions to the Parliamentary Secretary. My first question is this: regarding soft woods the back benchers of the Socialist Party adopt the line—I think the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) took this line—that it is impossible to obtain any more timber without giving more dollars, which we do not possess, or by taking less wheat. Is that the argument of the hon. Member for Gravesend?
  Sir R. Acland Sir R. Acland indicated assent.
  Mr. Marples: All right then; I shall make some suggestions how we can get more timber in another way and I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would interrupt or criticise me if he thinks my suggestions are wrong. The Minister himself made great play with timber. He said it was the greatest limiting factor in house building today and that we are paying twice the cost for half the quantity. In that he is quite right. A standard of timber cost £18 before the war; now it costs over £80 a standard. This is an increase of 400 per cent. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) demonstrated that the cost of London County Council houses had increased by 200 per cent. Therefore, the cost of house building has risen by 200 per cent. while timber is up by 400 per cent.
  During his speech I interrupted the Minister to ask what steps be had taken—I know that the right hon. Gentleman is now somewhere in the precincts of the Palace of Westminster, and it would be gratifying if he would come to answer some of these questions—to get more timber other than by fighting for dollars within the Cabinet. Has he made any suggestions at all? Has he any suggestions to make, or has he none? We on this side are perfectly entitled to ask a Minister of the Crown, especially a Cabinet Minister, that question, because if he has any suggestions he should let the Commitee know them, and if he has no suggestions to make he ought at least to be here to listen to the suggestions made from this side of the Committee.
  I shall take two points in connection with timber and its use to show why
  1890
  the cost of timber today is excessive, and then I shall make constructive suggestions about how this position should be remedied. My first point concerns timber in the merchant's yard. At present the timber merchant employs an enormous staff. He employs practically the same number of staff as pre-war. He also rents or owns the same building space for storing timber. Also he possesses expensive American appliances known as "lifters" and "carriers," which are capable of moving timber from the yard into a railway truck in a matter of three, four or five minutes. Those overheads of the builders' merchants in 1938 were spread over 2,400,000 standards of timber. In 1946 they were spread over 790,000 standards of timber. In other words compared with pre-war there are three times the overheads on each standard of timber today. That, obviously, is one reason why the costs of timber have increased. The only way to correct that is to increase the supply of timber—
  Sir R. Acland: Or to reduce the number of timber merchants.
  Mr. Marples: That possibly suggests itself to the mind of the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) and, if so, I should be glad if he would produce that argument in Gravesend where there are many timber yards. I should be delighted to hear him making a speech on those lines in Gravesend.
  My next point is in regard to the site itself. There is considerable uncertainty in the minds of the builders contractors as to what timber a person can obtain from the builder's merchant. The reason is that the merchant himself does not know 48 hours in advance the quantity, price, size, or quality of timber he is to receive via the Government. He does not know whether it will be Swedish, or Brazilian. One merchant near my constituency has 20,000 standards of timber on order. At present he has a mere 350 in stock and in addition knows of a certain 350 more standards coming in. So when builders are asked for a price for building houses, they have to put in a figure for timber which bears no relation to the cost of timber they might have to buy. A builder can never know today what he is to receive by way of timber and so it is completely impossible to plan ahead.

  1891
  Hon. Members opposite have criticised the industry for lack of efficiency. The industry itself has tended for some years to have more prefabrication done off the site than on the site. The hon. Member for Central Leeds will agree that the tendency has been to use more freely specialist sub-contractors to produce a cheap specialised article which can be assembled off the site. Prior to 1914 various sizes of timber were sent from the merchant to the site, where it was shaped in accordance with requirements by the contractor. After 1918 the tendency was for the builder not to do this work on the site, but to buy direct from the merchants according to the exact lengths and quantities of timber ready for assembly. Thus the timber merchant was in fact, a specialist subcontractor.
  In the 1930's, when we had that extraordinary burst of house building; a builder would ask his merchant for timber for 1,000 houses and get the complete pieces sawn to length and size sent direct to the site. He himself takes no part in the shaping of the timber. That had several great advantages. If the site builder has small ends of timber lying idle on the site they invariably go on the fire to keep the watchman warm. But in a builders' merchant's yard the timber could be prefabricated rather like a "meccano" set, and the short ends were not wasted as on site but used for packing cases because the packing case industry can use short lengths of timber while the building industry generally only use long lengths. That is important in relation to the cost.
  I have a suggestion to make, on the assumption that the Parliamentary Secretary has no suggestions of his own as to how we in this country can increase the supply of timber. If the hon. Gentleman has any suggestion, I will sit down and listen to him now. Has he any suggestion of how we can increase the supply? We on this side have been asked a series of questions this afternoon by that exuberent personality, the Minister of Health, in a 50-minute speech which failed to produce any constructive suggestion of how to procure more timber. May I ask one question of the Parliamentary Secretary; what suggestion, if any, has he made for in-
  1892
  creasing the supply? Anyway I will make mine.
  I consider that in this country we have carried too far the use of materials as substitutes for timber until that has reached such a stage that it is uneconomic. The Committee of European Economic Co-operation have recognised that the timber substitute is usually uneconomical. The right hon. Gentleman may study the Report of the committee for July-September, 1947, vol. 2, in which they state:
  "An increase in production costs, leading to increases in the cost of living, demand for higher wages and other symptoms of inflationary pressure comes from using articles in lieu of timber."
  The Report also says that a diversion of manufacturing capacity from export to domestic consumption takes place in using these substitute materials. If we send one ton of steel to Canada in its cheapest form, such as structural assembly, we are able to sell it for £50 a ton. If we buy a ton of timber in Canada it costs us in dollars only £16 a ton. Therefore, for one ton of steel in its cheapest form we can receive from Canada three tons of timber. If we sell steel to Canada in its more expensive form such as watch springs or motor cars we obviously get hundreds of pounds per ton.
  Let us examine how the use of substitute articles for timber affects the foreign exchange position of this country. Metal windows cost £24 compared with £18 for wood. In 1947 we produced and used in this country 50,000 tons of steel metal doors and windows. If we had exported these abroad at the same price as we sold them in this country they would have produced about £5 million in dollars.
  Mr. Pritt: If somebody had bought them.
  Mr. Marples: I shall come to the point made by the new leader of the new party in a second. Therefore, we should have received £5 million in dollars. The timber which we should have required to replace the steel which we sold would have cost £1 million, so that the net saving would have been £4 million of dollars in that item alone and by an expenditure of £8 million worth of dollars on timber we should have enough timber to build another 100,000 houses a year. Has the Parliamentary Secretary ever gone into that aspect of the matter?

  1893
  Let me show the Committee how much we could save by carrying the process a little further. In 1948, Canada asked this country for 300,000 tons of steel for a project in Alberta plus 2,100 miles of steel pipe for a pipe line. All that we could offer was 20,000 tons. If we had sold them that steel we could have bought 900,000 tons of timber in exchange, or sufficient for 232,000 houses. Let us look at how much steel we are using in this country. On light rolled products in 1947 we used about 3 million tons. If we had exported 10 per cent. only in its most unprofitable form the net gain would have been £10 million in dollars.
  That is providing we use the substitute article in an effective manner. There are occasions when we do not use it in an effective manner, and then there is greater waste. I will give the Committee an instance of that. A nationalised body specified in a contract for which I tendered that we should use steel shuttering. They said:
  "In view of the difficulty of obtaining timber steel shuttering shall be used wherever possible and the contractor shall state at the time of tendering the amount of work for which they propose to use timber shuttering."
  Timber shuttering is used to house concrete, which is poured in to make a heavy base for a power station, school or something of that nature. On that particular job it was virtually impossible to use that steel shuttering due to the nature of the work, but the contractor still had his steel delivered to the site for the job. He had it specially faced up with a plastic material which is very expensive to use, but found that it could not be used because the specification was ridiculous. He was given the timber and the net result was that he received steel plus timber. If the Parliamentary Secretary would like to come with me tomorrow I will show him where the steel is and where the timber has been used. There has been a complete waste of dollars in that one item.
  If I might summarise, we have from time to time made suggestions in various committees, which seems to be the only way to get things done in a democracy. I suggest that a committee be appointed to go into the effective and economical use of substitute materials in lieu of timber. I suggest that it be given specific terms of reference to find how much steel is being wasted, and if we are using steel
  1894
  here which we could sell to Canada and get timber in exchange. I assure the hon. Member for Gravesend that what I am saying is a practical possibility. It can be done, even where we use steel as an effective substitute for timber.
  Having dealt with the timber item without being jeered at by hon. Gentlemen opposite—and I have tried to be constructive on that particular proposal! come to the question of house-building costs generally. When the Minister replied to my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) with his customary exuberance, but with less than his customary fairness, he justified the increase in the cost of house-building in what I thought was a rather elaborate and theoretical argument; about roads and sewers and the deaths of little children, which seemed to have no relevance to the particular point whatsoever. That was the first item which he said went to make the increased cost of houses. The second item was that equipment was now superior to what it used to be. Those two items, he claimed, justified the present increase in the cost of house-building. He went on to say that it had not gone up unduly as compared with other commodities. I do not think I am being unfair to him in saying that; roads and sewers have taken houses off the arterial roads, equipment has been increased and the cost has not gone up unduly as compared with other commodities.
  I wish to make my analysis of the increase in building costs and I would pray in aid the report of the Girdwood Committee. This was the report which the right hon. Gentleman himself accepted, and the committee which he set up. I should like to try and take this logically, because it is important we should point out to the Minister the exact figure he has cost us in his housing programme. The first point is, what was the Government's intention? In the White Paper of 1945, which was referred to by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities, and which the Minister himself accepted—because he had accepted that as the basis for his housing programme—it declared that the actual number of houses to be built would be dependent on the building resources likely to be available from time to time. So in the White Paper of 1945 that was indicated as the inten-

  1895
  tion of the Government. The report went on to say:
  "'There was a serious rise in building costs after the last war because demands went far beyond the real capacity of the building industry. In order to check such a tendency the Government will this time control the volume of contracts let by local authorities, the building and repair work done on private account and the price of materials, standard components and fitments.'"
  That was the Government's intention, and it is what the Parliamentary Secretary will accept now as the Government's intention, when they started the housing programme.
  Let us look at the Government's action. Paragraph 169 of the Girdwood Committee's report states this:
  "Nevertheless, all the evidence shows that a serious overloading of building resources took place."
  In other words, what the Government did was contrary to the intention expressed in that White Paper in 1945. Let us go further and say this, that the result of the Government's action has been as is stated in paragraph 170:
  "This resulted in too thin a spread of labour and materials over the amount of work in progress and has thus been largely responsible for the low level of productivity in house-building in the past, and the extra cost arising therefrom."
  So the first point is that the Government's intention was not to overload the industry. The second point is that, in point of fact, their own committee said they did overload the industry. The third point is that the overloading has been largely responsible for the low level, for the
  "… low level of productivity … and the extra cost arising therefrom."
  I wish to be fair to the Minister. He said in the House of Commons on 28th July, 1947:
  "In other words—and this is a legitimate point of criticism—by the end of 1946, the housing programme was out of phase, out of balance. I accept that at once. I accept that by the end of 1946 we had placed more contracts at the disposal of the building industry than the physical resources of the industry could manage.… I accept it as an inevitable concomitant of the planning of building over a wide field."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th July, 1947; Vol. 441, c. 85.]
  So there we have the case complete. The Minister has accepted it as the:
  "inevitable concomitant of planning building over a wide field,"
  that is, overloading the industry. Let us
  1896
  look at what this question of overloading cost the nation. In paragraph 233 of the same committee's report it says:
  "The decline in productivity in the building industry since 1939 led to an increase of some 45 per cent. in the number of man-hours required to build a house in 1947, and a resultant extra cost of about £150 in the case of the typical three-bedroom house."
  This was largely due to the Minister's own action of overloading in the industry.
  Is there any chain in that evidence which the Parliamentary Secretary does not accept, because I am going to work out how much that has cost the nation first, in terms of money and secondly, in terms of houses not constructed. It cost us £150 per house, and the hon. Member for South-Western Norfolk (Mr. Dye) was complaining bitterly about my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) trying to cut £10 off the cost of a house in a certain manner. He should bring this to the attention of the Minister of Health, who has cost this country £150 a house.
  The number of houses built to 30th April this year was 478,988—that is, permanent houses—and at £150 per house, which is the Girdwood Committee's own figure, it amounts to a loss in productivity of £71,848,200. That seems to me a fair price to pay even for someone who has given us a delightful dialectical display on certain occasions.
  Mr. Fernyhough: Is not the hon. Member referring to a report which was made in 1947? Has not the Minister since brought his programme into balance? Is it not, therefore, ridiculous to assume that the £150 to which re refers could have been saved on the houses built since the programme has been in balance?
  Mr. Marples: The point is this: this occurred in houses built since the end of the war and for which this Government are entirely responsible. The Gird-wood Committee made an analysis of the increase in cost and it said it was £150 per house, a large part of which is due to overloading of the industry, which has been accepted by the Minister as his responsibility. Therefore, whatever the hon. Gentleman thinks, he must argue it out with the Minister of Health who has accepted responsibility for that large part.
  Mr. Fernyhough: It was accepted to that date, but since then he has taken steps to remedy the position.
  Mr. Marples: I shall show the hon. Gentleman shortly how repercussions of it will be with us until 1953, and then perhaps I will have met his point. If we say that 50 per cent. of that £150 per house was due to the Minister—because he was "largely responsible," not wholly responsible—it means that he will have cost us £36 million, which is half of the £72 million I mentioned. Translated into terms of houses at £1,500 each it means that 24,000 houses have been entirely lost, due to the Minister of Health overloading the building programme.
  I want to say this to the Parliamentary Secretary. If he does not agree with my arithmetical calculations, would he be kind enough to give the Committee the benefit of an arithmetical exercise by giving us his figure of what it cost the nation? I think some sort of figure should be given, based on the lack of productivity in the industry. Not only does it affect the housing industry, which had priority, but it affects the entire building industry, and housing is only one-quarter or one-fifth of the industry. Thus, the £71 million which was lost in that lack of productivity must be multiplied by four or five to give the total cost of the Minister of Health's administration to the nation—and it is a pretty hefty figure. That is the cost in the past, as the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) pointed out.
  Now, as to the cost in the future. Has the hon. Member thought of this: that the building industry will be short of skilled craftsmen in the future? We have 625,000 craftsmen employed in the industry, with 4 per cent. wastage annually, which means that we have to produce 25,000 skilled craftsmen a year—that is, 4 per cent. of 625,000—and if we are to produce 25,000 skilled craftsmen a year we must put into the apprenticeship scheme more than 25,000 at the beginning of the five years it takes them to complete their apprenticeship, because a lot of them will drift out before they have completed their apprenticeship. Therefore, if the housing programme was out of phase in 1945–48 and apprentices left the industry because firstly there was no work, and then too much work, and
  1898
  finally no work again—which they did—it means that the repercussion of the Minister of Health's action as far as the manpower of this industry is concerned will be felt from 1950–53, which is five years after the programme was out of phase—1945–48.
  Perhaps, that has answered one of the questions of the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough). When we on this side take over the Government and are on that side of the Chamber, as we shall be in 1950, the Minister of Health who will be appointed from amongst our Members will have to contend with all that.
  Mr. Fernyhough: Is the hon. Member making excuses already?
  Mr. Marples: No excuses already, because the country will not need excuses from us for the mess housing is in. Not only shall we bear the cost in future of apprentices, but there will be materials as well. The Minister's programme of building was expected to work up to a peak production of between 400,000 to 500,000 within six to eight years—and we are in the middle of 1949—in addition to repairs and other building work. That was the Government's declared intention in a White Paper.
  Taking that as a hypothesis, what would be the effects on the building materials industry? It has had a result in my constituency. The British Plaster Board Company opened a factory at the Government's instigation to turn out plaster boards for the housing programme. Recently they have had to close down that factory, causing severe unemployment on Merseyside. The factory is being taken to some other part of England. I should like to read a letter the Board of Trade sent me dated 3rd June this year about British Plaster Boards. It says:
  "I am sure no one can be seriously blamed for having pitched requirements too high, and if our national resources had led us to embrace a larger and accelerated programme, the guesses made in 1945"—
  the guesses made in 1945—
  "might have proved correct. In the event however, due to miscalculation, the plaster board industry were persuaded by the Government to carry out expansions which are now leaving the industry with capacity in excess of what is required."
  Because of that, that works is being closed down; because of that factory's

  1899
  lying idle there will be a charge on the overheads in the plaster board industry for the next four, five or six years. There is a second way in which the Minister's policy affects us vitally in the future. The only remedy for this is to fix the number of men who are working in the industry, and to avoid this rather erratic impulsiveness, which gives political benefit to the person proposing these courses.
  I have taken longer than I ought, but there is one more point I should like to bring out, and that is the question of the nationalisation of the industry. This was brought up at the Labour Party conference, and the Minister referred to it today. I think when he referred to nationalisation a cry went up of "Why not?" from the benches behind him. The trade unions themselves are interested in this, and the National Federation of Building Trades Operatives has passed a resolution saying that all their delegates are in favour of it, and want the Government to carry it out. I think that is putting the matter fairly. I should like to read three extracts from speeches made by trade unionists. One says:
  "We stand today at the beginning of a new period of economic history. The great trade unions are no longer on the defensive, but are awakening to a new conception of their functions and a new vision of creative service."
  That speech in favour of nationalisation—
  The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Bowles): Any reference to the desirability or otherwise of nationalisation is not, of course, in Order on a Supply Day, because it entails legislation. It is out of Order even if the hon. Member advocates it or does not advocate it through the mouth of a trade unionist.
  Mr. Marples: I was only following up what had been said by the Minister.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I was in the Chair at the time. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman who led for the Opposition was accused by the Minister of risking the Minister being forced to persuade his colleagues to nationalise the industry. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman or the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was advocating nationalisation.
  Mr. Marples: Could I not point out that it is not the remedy for the industry
  1900
  and will not promote efficiency, since that is relevant to the subject of the industry?
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman was suggesting that certain trade unionists had argued that nationalisation might be the remedy. Even if he put that argument to the Committee as coming from them, he would not be in Order.
  Mr. Marples: May I put it this way: That nationalisation would affect the industry and its efficiency adversely?
  The Deputy-Chairman: No.
  Mr. Marples: Another speech made was:
  "At a time when the capitalist system"—
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman must not advocate, even if he does not believe in it, anything that entails nationalisation.
  Mr. Marples: Then let me refer to something which does not require legislation: namely, an experiment started in building houses after the last war by trade unionists themselves. These are speeches they made before that particular project came before the public. Here is a second speech made, not for nationalisation but on behalf of the building trades operatives themselves forming their own company and showing the nation the way to nationalisation for later Governments. This is their second statement:
  "At a time when the capitalist system was breaking down all over the world it was particularly desirable that a new system should be examined by everybody."
  Their third statement was:
  "We are not planning destruction. We are planning construction."
  Where did all these glittering epigrams of quite unexceptionable moral sentiment lead? The answer will be most interesting to this Committee. It led directly to the Bankruptcy Court. On that occasion the trade unions financed this scheme to show the world how building should be done with their own money. They lost it all, and two and a half years later a liquidator was appointed by the bank. After that, nationalisation—that is to say, the same scheme but with the taxpayers' money instead of their own—figured in

  1901
  the programme of the Socialist Party. The only thing I can say about nationalisation, as it would require legislation, is that as far as I can see all it does is to make monopoly respectable.
  In conclusion, let me say this to the Parliamentary Secretary. I am not a very old man, but it really is disheartening to have to try to get things done when a number of Government Departments have to be consulted, and they exercise supervision which blankets and stifles almost all initiative. Recently I tried to get a plant yard, which was very necessary to maintain the plant in good order and good condition. I had to get the permission of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Town and Country Planning, the Minister of Works, and several others. After just over two years of fruitless work I had to give up the scheme altogether and buy an existing plant yard, for the very simple reason that I was never able to satisfy the combined requirements of the Government Departments.
  Every requirement of a Government Department is justified taken by itself, but when they are taken together it means that the only way to get on is to have an amiable agreement with the Departments and then add the cost on to the bill. Now that just is not good enough. Unless we alter the framework and alter the psychological outlook of the country as a whole and the building industry in particular we shall have economic stagnation and a declining and decaying industry.
  8.59 p.m.
  Mr. Shurmer: I hope the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) will forgive me if I do not follow his remarks in what I have to say. I want to deal for a few moments with some statements which have been made about misleading the public. All the party on this side of the Committee stand by the statements we made in the 1945 General Election: that the Labour Party intends to provide a house for every family in the country. We on this side, including the Minister himself, realise the serious housing situation. One would believe, from some of the statements made by Members opposite, that the situation in which we found ourselves in 1945, and that in which we find ourselves today,
  1902
  were brought about by a Labour Government.
  Let us for a moment examine how hon. Members opposite treated the housing problem. I come from an industrial city where slums reigned supreme. I live in those slums, and have done so ever since I became a public man in 1921. I know the situation. I served on a council in that great industrial city which had a Tory majority until 1945. Let us consider the situation between the two wars, when the party opposite had an opportunity not only to provide every family with a house but to remove many of the great slums in our industrial towns and cities, a job which we are now having to do. Between 1918 and 1939 about four million houses were built. Those who are shedding crocodile tears and misleading the people by telling them that free enterprise should be allowed to do the job are the people who, between the two wars, built houses in the dormitories for business people and other who could afford to buy them. Out of the four million houses built, one and a half million were built to let, and the rents were so high that in many cases workers could not afford to pay them. Between the wars, 200,000 houses were unfit for human habitation.
  I am sick and tired of the literature sent out by the Woolton organisation and put through the doors of people in back rooms telling them that the Tories want free enterprise to build houses. It does well to remind our opponents of the difficulties this Government had to face. No Government have had to face the situation we had to face. We found ourselves short of building labour after the war, with 220,000 houses totally destroyed and 250,000 made uninhabitable by enemy action. Three million houses were damaged in one way or another, and practically no repairs had been carried out for six and a half years. In addition, more people were married during the war than during the whole of the inter-war years, and as a result of full employment, many people who, during the inter-war years, would probably have been out of work were able to live in their own homes. We found ourselves faced with a gigantic problem.
  One of the first tasks this Government had to do was to bring building labour from towns and cities in the country to

  1903
  the City of London to carry out repairs, because London was bombed right to the end of hostilities. This was done despite the fact that the situation was serious in many towns and cities. The building force was down to 500,000, for which the party opposite was responsible, due to what happened between the wars when there was plenty of opportunities to build houses of a decent type and to remove many of the slums. We know that housing is dependent not only upon bricks and mortar but on timber and steel, and that timber has to be bought with dollars and steel is required for other works. Hospitals, factories and health centres all have to be dealt with, and have been dealt with to a great extent.
  The Government, too, have done a lot to assist local authorities. We all know what happened after the last war. Loans were lent at 6 per cent. The City of Birmingham is now paying off debts contracted by raising loans at that high rate of interest after the First World War, when the housing situation was so bad. The present Government have been prepared to reduce the interests on loans by controlling the operation of house building. The subsidy payable between the two wars was £6 for each house for 20 years; the subsidy today is £16 10s. for 60 years.
  In September, 1921, the Tories reigned supreme in the City of Birmingham, and we all know what happened. Hon. Members opposite do not want to know what happened previously. They say that does not get the houses. We realise that, but it is well to remind hon. Members opposite of the situation then. By September, 1921, three years after the cessation of hostilities, 100,000 houses had been built by the Government who were returned to power on the plea of homes for heroes. In the three years after the last war 750,000 houses have been built, of which 350,000 were new homes. Last December the figures was 800,000, of which 386,000 were new homes, while the figure now stands at over half a million new homes alone.
  The majority of the houses built by private enterprise between the two wars were over £13 valuation, and the few lower than that valuation were not let to rent. Wage earners, between the wars, could not afford to buy them. I well re-
  1904
  member in the City of Birmingham, where a great deal of this jerry building was going on, going round building sites in 1920 and 1921. It was possible to pull the handrails from stairs, and in other ways, too, the houses were very bad. In many of these houses today, the floors are rotting away. I know what I am talking about. I am speaking from my own experience. When the selling price of houses was fixed by the private builder, when he got the 1923 subsidy, many houses were built, but as soon as the subsidy was refused down went the number of houses and many builders went smash. This Government have learned the lesson, but the trouble with the Opposition is that they are out to mislead the people, and want to return to the conditions which prevailed between the two wars. Since the last war the local authorities have built four-fifths of the houses, compared with one-third in the comparative period after the First World War.
  In the City of Birmingham we are in a difficult position despite the fact that we are building more houses than any city in the country. We have a problem of close on 47,000 people living in rooms. The majority are couples with one child, and we have a great slum clearance scheme under which five great slum areas will be cleared. When the war broke out in 1939, we had a waiting list of 30,000 who needed houses in the city. But, while I have every praise for the great work which is being done today—
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: How many are waiting today?
  Mr. Shurmer: About 47,000 are waiting in the City of Birmingham. We have revised the list.
  I ask the Minister whether anything can be done to balance the labour force in Birmingham? There is no limit to the number of houses that we are allowed to build. Birmingham Members met the Minister of Health some time ago, and he gave Birmingham a promise of 3,000 houses and said that when they had built those they could go on with more. I would point out that the building operatives registered in Birmingham number 17,903. Working on new houses for the local authority are 1,453, and for private enterprise 495. Those working on municipal housing maintenance

  1905
  number about 4,300. There are 8,386 building operatives in Birmingham on some work or other, some of whom ought to be transferred to housing. I was able recently, through the Minister of Works, to prevent a great project going forward upon a non-resident licensed house in that city, at a cost of more than £250,000. I hope the Minister will be prepared to use his influence with the Minister of Works to prevent licences being used except for priority work, and that the Ministry of Health will try to transfer to the building of houses building labour which is now being wasted on other projects.
  The Government have done a jolly good job. If the party on the other side were elected at the next Election, we believe that it would be difficult to get houses to rent and that the workers would be left in the lurch. I hope that the workers will not be misled by talk about building houses in a fortnight, but that they will back this Government instead of taking the risk of jerry-built houses.
  9.12 p.m.
  Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: In his entertaining and rapidly delivered speech the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) said that he knew what he was talking about. I am not sure that this advantage was shared by every Member of the Committee. I followed with interest what he said on one point, when he said that there are not enough houses in Birmingham. That point he can make to the Minister of Health when that right hon. Gentleman sees fit to grace the proceedings with his presence. The Minister's technique is a little unusual and highly individual. In the course of his speech the right hon. Gentleman mingled interrogation with indignation. He asked a great many questions, and it was a matter of conjecture whether he was more indignant when answers to the questions were forthcoming or when he was allowed to proceed with his speech without interruption. One hopes that the Minister will at any rate pay regard to the points made in the Debate in the pages of HANSARD, even though he has not been here to pay attention to them personally.
  The Minister puts his case in a number of ways. First of all he says that the housing programme is really very
  1906
  good. He quotes statistics about the number of homes provided. Then he has a number of alternative pleas—pleas in mitigation, as it were. He says that if the programme is not as good as he claims it to be, at any rate it is better than that of the Tories. In that position he was joined by the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) and the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson). Then he says that in any event he is doing as well as labour and materials allow. Lastly, he says that whatever the economics of the present housing programme he is bound to adhere to his methods and policy in order to serve the social purpose of the housing programme.
  It has never been the case of the Opposition that houses could not be built in the post-war period even under a Socialist Government. What we have always said is that the success or failure of the housing programme has to be judged according to the standards of need and of potential capacity, that is, of the number of houses that might have been built. It is our case that according to both those standards the housing record of the Government is a failure. So far as need is concerned, we have in the waiting lists the most obvious and convincing argument of the failure of the present housing record when judged by that standard.
  Although hon. Members opposite are rather bemused by the rhetoric of the Minister in this House, when they get to their constituencies they find that private suffering weighs a good deal more than public speaking. When they go to their constituents they find that they cannot reproduce the highly personal rhetoric of the Minister and that the arguments which they applauded in the House do not hold good. It is because of that that every now and then we get courageous and revealing speeches by individual hon. Members opposite, like the hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. Yates) in the Debate in March and the hon. Member for North Ilford (Mrs. Ridealgh) in a recent Adjournment Debate.
  Mr. Shurmer Mr. Shurmer rose—
  Mr. Walker-Smith: I am afraid that I cannot give way. The hon. Member will realise that I am speaking under a difficulty in regard to time because I have much less time than I anticipated.
  Sir T. Moore: That is owing to the verbosity of the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer).
  Mr. Walker-Smith: The voices which are raised from time to time by hon. Members opposite are plucky voices but they are pigmy voices. I should have liked to hear the Minister, had he not been the Minister responsible, dealing with the situation for which he is now responsible. I should have liked to hear his great capacity for invective dealing with this situation of the long and increasing waiting lists, and the claim by a Minister that his housing record is satisfactory in spite of them. The Opposition have always been careful not to try to make political capital.—[Laughter.] The hon. Member for Sparkbrook laughs, but I would remind him that in the very first speech I made in this House I specifically said that the housing of the people was infinitely more important than party advantage. The Minister is free from those inhibitions. There is no doubt that if he had been criticising a record such as the one for which he is now responsible he would have ruffled up the spirits of the people and made it a first-class political issue.
  Therefore, so far as need is concerned, it is apparent that the record of the Government has not passed the test. That is why hon. Members opposite turn with such obvious relish to the minor consideration, the plea in mitigation that they have done better than the Tories; but, equally, that plea is not supported by the evidence. In his speech the Minister said that in 1945 everybody realised that it would take some time for the building industry to become geared up. I do not know who is covered by "everybody," but it is quite clear from the speeches made at that time by the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for example, that it could not apply to them. Equally there was no reference to it in the book published under a pseudonym by the right hon. Gentleman for the purposes of the General Election.
  So far as the comparison with Tory achievement is concerned, all the old fallacies have been trotted out by several hon. Members on the other side. The difference in the situation in the period following the 1914–18 war and the period following this war has been made quite
  1908
  clear in the Girdwood Report. It has been made quite clear that the situation confronting the housing programme in 1945 was infinitely more favourable than its counterpart in 1919. In any event, I would remind the Committee, we are passing beyond the immediate post-war phase, and if hon. Members will have regard to the figures of housing progress in 1923–29—because 1923 is the same period after the first war as 1949 after the recent war—they will see that the figures then were very greatly improved in regard to housing construction. [Interruption.] It is true, because if the hon. Member will refer to those figures, he will see that in those years 1,151,000 houses were built from all sources, which compares not too unfavourably with the present volume of housing production. He will see also that that period was merely preparatory to the period of the greatest housing construction and not, as this period is, possibly the beginning of a period of decline.
  Now my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) has made it quite clear that in looking at the housing progress, such as it is, regard must be had to the fact that the volume of non-housing construction in this country is considerably less now than it was in the years before the war. In judging whether the housing progress is adequate or not, we have to take into account the shortage of schools, hospitals and other public buildings which are not able to be built now because of the concentration of labour and materials upon the housing programme, in spite of the sacrifice of all those public buildings and amenities, the record is no better than it is today. I do not think that in a planned, controlled economy the Government can really gloss over the inadequacy of the housing record by laying the blame on materials and labour. It might have been possible so to do in a free economy but, quite clearly, no such plea of mitigation holds good in a controlled economy such as we have today.
  The Minister of Health has to recognise the joint and several responsibility of Members of the Government in regard to these matters. If there is a shortage of materials, it is not enough for him to say that that is a reason for not having a better housing programme, unless he can

  1909
  show that no blame in regard thereto attaches to the Government as a whole. In regard to that, he will have listened to the many practical suggestions put forward from this side of the Committee in regard to economy in the use of materials.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I do not wish to be discourteous, but it is now 25 minutes past nine o'clock. My hon. Friend has been speaking since 10 minutes past nine, and the Minister whose Vote is being spoken to, has not appeared. For the winding up Debate on a Supply Day it is usual form that the Minister in charge at least listens to the closing speech—
  An Hon. Member: He has not been here at all.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: It might be of assistance if I say that my right hon. Friend is on his way to the Chamber.
  An Hon. Member: He should have been here before eight o'clock. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Walker-Smith: Whether the right hon. Gentleman is present or not I must press on, because I am anxious to do as much credit to my case as possible in the limited time at my disposal and to leave the hon. Gentleman what must in any event be a very inadequate time for his reply.
  Let me, therefore, turn to the question of costs and rents, of which so much has been made, and rightly made, in this Debate. The hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) said that the fantastic costs experienced after the last war had not been reached after this war. That, of course, is not so. The peak point of costs after the 1914 war was in September, 1920, when it reached the point of 20s. 9d. per superficial foot. The present cost is considerably higher than the highest figure then reached, and is many times higher than the lowest figure reached between the wars, when, in 1935, a three-bedroomed house could be built for £293. Nothing of what the Minister or any hon. Gentleman opposite has said today has come anywhere near to explaining away this enormous discrepancy in pre-war and post-war costs. If the Girdwood Report is studied in detail it will show that none of the items which have been mentioned today—materials or land, for example—account for more than a comparatively small proportion of that enormous discrepancy.
  1910
  The result, as we all know, is the effect upon rents. In 1946, when the Act under which subsidies were given was passed, it was assumed that the subsidies would enable weekly rents of 10s. to be charged. The Minister today has said that it does not very much matter if there is a 3s. or 4s. a week increase in rents because the workers are well able to afford it. That, presumably, is the policy for the Socialist Party at the coming election—higher rents with the Minister of Health and stabilised wages with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That explains why, for the first time in all our Housing Debates, the Minister of Health sat down without the usual loud and somewhat sychophantic cheers which normally accompany the end of his orations.
  He referred to the possibility of the Leader of the Opposition landing us in for something—I think that was his elegant phrase—when he makes his speech at the end of this month, but it is the Minister of Health who has landed his party in for something. [Interruption.] Let hon. Members go to their constituencies and say whether they are in support of a Government and a policy which have raised rents in spite of these large subsidies, and of a Minister who holds out no hope of lowering those rents but says that it does not very much matter because the workers ought to be able to pay them.
  So far as costs and rent are concerned it is clearly true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) and other hon. Members have said today, that we are reaching the position where those for whom council houses are intended by Statute will not be able to afford the rents. The Minister of Health is, in fact, trying to discharge the statutory responsibility of the housing of the working classes by housing them in privately owned property with the help of the Rent Restrictions Acts. So far as rising costs and rents are concerned, the Minister has encountered criticism from the Conservative Party, from the Association of Municipal Corporations and the hon. Member who is leader of the new group, the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt). That is a formidable trio for any Minister. If the Minister continues in his "rake's progress" of rising costs and rents he will

  1911
  find that the more intelligent of his supporters will come over to the Conservative Party and the less intelligent will join the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith.
  It is clear that the question of costs and rents is absolutely vital to the housing programme. It is no good the Minister discoursing on the added amenities of houses today if the effect is to put them beyond the reach of those for whom they are intended. Costs are, furthermore, an indication of efficiency of construction. It is quite clear that the policies of the Minister of Health have not led to the most economical form of construction. What he has always done is to confuse the technical aspect—[Interruption.] I think I ought to inform the Minister that the applause was faintly ironical and was not wholeheartedly enthusiastic on the part of my hon. Friends. I am sorry I cannot represent—
  Mr. Bevan: I ought perhaps to explain that there is no obligation on me to be here—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] The Parliamentary Secretary is here to reply. I am here to do a courtesy to the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith)—[Interruption.] Allow me to say what I am going to say. In fact I have informed, through the usual channels, the chief Whip of the Opposition that, because of their discourtesy on Friday morning in insisting that a Parliamentary Secretary is not good enough for them, and in Committee upstairs that a Parliamentary Secretary is not good enough for them, I shall not in such circumstances accept the obligation of being on the Bench to listen to a back bencher—[Interruption.]
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: This is not a question of a back bencher. This is a question of the House of Commons—
  The Chairman: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman raise a point of Order?
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Yes, on a point of Order. Supply is the occasion when the Minister asks the House, not a back bencher, for a Vote of money. It is the direct constitutional responsibility of the Minister. It is not to the House of Commons, it is to you, Major Milner, that he owes this courtesy. I suggest it is grossly
  1912
  unconstitutional for the Minister to pin his action—as to the courtesy or otherwise of which I shall not venture to pronounce—on the fact that the speaker is a back bencher. It is a discourtesy and in itself an unconstitutional thing that the Minister should not be here as far as possible throughout the Debate? We are perfectly willing—
  The Chairman: I asked the right hon. and gallant Gentleman if he had a point of Order to raise. So far he has not put that point of Order to me. I permitted the Minister to say a few words and similarly allowed the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to intervene, but if he has a point of Order, I must now ask him to put it forthwith, or to allow the hon. Member in possession to proceed.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The point is that the Minister is asking the House for a Vote and, under the circumstances, it is the tradition of the House that the Minister who is asking the House for a Vote remains.
  Mr. Bevan: Nonsense.
  The Chairman: No point of Order would appear to arise there. Mr. Walker-Smith—
  Mr. Walker-Smith: I think that the people of this country will find it very difficult to understand the point of the right hon. Gentleman. To the people of this country the question of housing has nothing to do with petty personal considerations. To the people of this country the great task of housing the people is probably the most responsible task in the domestic field which can be entrusted to any Minister of the Crown, and the people of this country like to feel that that Minister, whoever he may be, is animated only by a desire to carry on the great task which has been given to him.
  If they feel that the Minister puts that as a secondary consideration to such petty considerations as—[Interruption.]—I have already referred this evening to what I said in my maiden speech, that housing the people was in fact more important than any party political advantage. It is also in fact more important than any petty personal considerations of pride, pique or prejudice. So far as I am concerned, the only reason why I think that the Minister ought to have been here was in case anything should be said, not by

  1913
  me, but by my hon. Friends and his hon. Friends, which would help in this great task. The result of the Minister coming in has been only a little less disadvantageous to the Debate than the result of his staying out because it has unfortunately taken up a great deal of time which I should much rather have devoted to more serious and important subjects.
  The Minister has referred to courtesy. So far as I know—I am in your hands, Major Milner—on the point of procedure—
  The Chairman: I do not think that the hon. Member should pursue that line. He should confine himself to the Motion which is before the House and not further prolong the argument which has arisen.
  Mr. Walker-Smith: All I intended to say is that so far as I am concerned, having the advantage of having caught your eye, so far as I know there is nothing in the Rules of the House which compels me to give way to the hon. Gentleman. That is a matter of courtesy and it is a matter of courtesy that he should have a right of reply. I propose to abide specifically by those rules of courtesy which provide for the arrangement between the hon. Gentleman and myself.
  In the circumstances, I have not made the full case that I hoped to make with the particularity which I had intended; nor have I been able to cover the ground as thoroughly as I had hoped for the benefit of the House. The hour being what it is, however, I now propose to give way to the Parliamentary Secretary, and to say in conclusion only that I hope that he will bear in mind the vital importance to the people of this country of this great subject which we are discussing tonight, and that he will approach his task without complacency and with some humility, having in view the record of the Government as measured against the need of the people.
  9.40 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Blenkinsop): I am glad that there are rather more hon. Members on the Opposition benches now than there have been during the course of this Debate. When right hon. and hon. Members opposite complain of the absence of my right hon. Friend they might also complain of their own hon.
  1914
  Friends who take so little interest in the subject which they themselves put down for Debate, as not even to care to come to this Committee to listen to the issue—
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Eight hon. Members on the other side.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: At some points in the Debate there have been only two or three hon. Members present on the opposite benches, which shows the amount of genuine interest in this subject that there is among them. The hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) who wound up the Debate—which was rather more heated in its conclusion than in its earlier stages—seemed to live in rather a strange dream world. He quite properly raised the question of rents, but he forgot that today our working population is working, and is not unemployed. What is more, they are working for wages infinitely better than they were able to do in the years gone by. Those of us particularly who know the situation in many of the industrial areas of this country know how much that means; and know that today the average worker can afford the rents which are, on the average, being asked for up and down the country. That is the case which my right hon. Friend perfectly properly made to the Committee earlier today.
  There has been a complete lack of any effective and constructive proposals from hon. Members opposite with perhaps the exception of the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples), who put forward proposals for increasing the amount of timber we can import from Canada. We would be only too glad to be able to import more timber from dollar areas, if we were able to export more in order to be able to afford it. He knows as well as anyone that today the pressure on our scarce dollar resources is such that we must conserve every possible element of dollar spending. We are also doing everything we can to increase the amount of timber which we can obtain from soft currency countries.
  Mr. Marples: Will the hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Blenkinsop: I do not think I can give way. Hon. Members who require answers to the points which they have raised should realise that I have very

  1915
  little time in which to give them. Some comments from the hon. Member for Wallasey, and some from the hon. Member for The High Peak Division (Mr. Molson), who seemed to suggest that we should cut out travelling time and some other suggestions that we should cut out meal times, represented about the total sum of constructive proposals which we obtained.
  In contrast there was the useful and constructive speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kennington (Mr. Gibson) who from his great personal experience did put forward some very useful and helpful proposals. We were glad indeed that he raised the point of the value that can be brought to the country from the full operation of the bonus schemes. My right hon. Friend has done all he can to encourage the development of bonus schemes and we obtained from the hon. Member for Kennington an example of what value can come from them in the way in which, here in London, they are already reaping great advantages. We are satisfied that their general adoption would bring real benefits to housing development throughout the country.
  He also very properly insisted upon the value of bringing the operatives into the closest possible consultation, so that there can be a real feeling of a common job to be done in this housing work. That is something which we believe we can develop enormously and so obtain the fullest co-operation of the workers in feeling that they are doing a job of the greatest possible value for those who live round them. This is something which can still be developed a great deal further than has been done up to the present time.
  My hon. Friend raised the point, in dealing with the costs of our raw materials, that there is still a good deal to be done in trying to obtain reductions in the cost of the components which go into houses. The prices of some materials are already showing a tendency to fall. In the case of others, as my hon. Friend said, representations have been made as to whether restrictive practices are not, in fact, causing the main difficulties. We can say that while, last year, it was pointed out that general prices had risen by some 30 per cent. since 1945, building prices, on the other hand, had not risen by more than 14 to 15 per cent. Today, the position is that over this last year building
  1916
  prices have become stabilised and we have every right to expect the beginning of a fall in building prices, which would bring a great relief, we know, to everyone.
  Points have been made during the Debate about the types of house which are now being built. Are we concentrating too much of our resources on the three-bedroom house? Obviously, local conditions vary enormously, but it is true to say that it would be helpful in some areas, as local authorities themselves are finding, if more two-bedroom houses and houses for old people were built. We must also remember the need for larger houses for larger families which, in some areas, are the greatest need.
  The right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), who opened the Debate, made a great deal of play about the total labour force which is available for general building work today by comparison with the building force pre-war, and suggested that it showed that the building labour today was building far fewer houses than were built before the war with a comparable amount of labour. I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has got his figures a little wrong. It is difficult, I agree, to get detailed figures on many of these points over the pre-war period for the very reason that, today, we are making available information which was never available at earlier times. I appreciate his difficulty in attempting to deal with the matter. Let us take the year 1935 and compare it with 1948.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Why not 1938 and compare it with 1948?
  Mr. Blenkinsop: I was trying to get the same source as that which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman used—the Oxford Economic Papers. From this comparison we find that in 1935 there was a total of 900,000 workers employed in the building and civil engineering industries as against roughly something under a million last year. Out of that total, however, in 1935 there were 500,000 employed on new construction of all kinds against 400,000 in 1948; or, as nearly as we can estimate it, in 1935 there were probably 300,000 employed in house construction as against 217,000 so employed in 1948. On the other hand,

  1917
  on repair work in 1935 there were 300,000 employed as against 450,000 in 1948, due to some 150,000 engaged on war damage repairs, conversions and adaptations.
  If we come to the actual amount spent on that work for the same periods we find that in 1935 new construction amounted to a total value of some £233 million. In 1948 that new construction with as I have said, a smaller labour force amounted to some £335 million. I agree that we must convert these actual values into equal terms. Even so, on repairs £93 million were spent in 1935 as against £348 million in 1948, and if we include contracting work, expenditure on roads and sewers, and the like, in the building and civil engineering industry the total expenditure in 1935 was £349 million and, in 1948, £799 million.
  That suggests that there is not this discrepancy between the work being done by the builder, by the actual operative, that is being suggested on the opposite side of the Committee. It suggests, as our general experience suggests, that we are getting to a stable production level, in which we are getting output from the individual worker certainly equal to the pre-war output. We should have welcomed today constructive proposals from hon. Members opposite that would have helped us further in ensuring a vigorous and useful attack on costs without diminishing in any way the standard of the worker, and without attacking the standard of house building that we are so proud of—and rightly proud of—today in this country.
  The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye) raised the problem of housing on reclaimed land. We shall be very willing to consider proposals submitted by local authorities of that kind, and would give every possible consideration to them. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) asked if there was any sign of a withdrawal of labour from new building since the raising of the permitted standard of unlicenced work from £10 to £100. So far as we can see there has been no such sign of a withdrawal, largely because the number of applications before for licences between £10 and £100 level was comparatively small. The hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) also seemed to criticise us for overloading the industry, quoting, of course, from the Girdwood Report. It seems to me that
  1918
  he was just about 12 to 15 months too late in some of the remarks he made—as, indeed, he admitted. My right hon. Friend dealt with the matter, not in this Debate on housing, but in the Debate on housing a year ago, and I think that the hon. Member was rather wasting his time in a good deal of that argument.
  The hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) raised the question of supplies of timber from quarters other than dollar areas. We are most anxious to get timber from other areas—as much as we possibly can. We are also investigating very fully alternative materials, as he and others have suggested. As I think he knows, we are, indeed, using them in a very great number of schemes up and down the country. In some cases they may initially cost a little more, but it is probable that, as we get into the knowledge of their use, a great deal of the cost will be brought down.
  I think the real difficulty we are faced with today is that, in spite of all the efforts of my right hon. Friend, we have been given no statement of any kind of the policy of hon. Members opposite. Although my right hon. Friend year after year makes his piteous plea for information from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for some indication of what their attitude is on housing, we have still been unable to get it. Indeed, today we have had the striking example that the hon. Member for Wallasey and the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) appeared to be asking for more vigorous and more effective control upon the volume of local authority and private house building, whereas the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities used either the word "shackles" or the word "fetters" to describe the way in which apparently local authorities, and certainly the building industry in general, are tied down. He said, "Let us strike them off." What I want to know from right hon. and hon. Members opposite is whether they want increased and more effective controls upon the building industry, or whether on the other hand, they want to strike them off.
  Brigadier Thorp: We want some houses. That is all.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: We get a clue from the leaflet which the Tory Central Office

  1919
  issued recently, but which perhaps has not been called to the attention of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities which says:
  "The Conservatives will free the building industry from the stranglehold of controls and let every builder get on with the job of building houses for sale."
  That means that if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and his hon. Friends had the opportunity they would take us back to periods in which houses were built for sale, many of them being left empty at the same time as my constituents and those from other industrial areas had no houses to go into. We are determined that those whose needs are most urgent shall continue to come first, however strongly hon. Gentlemen opposite may press the demand of the favoured few. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman decides to divide the
  Committee tonight the Division will clearly be between privilege and the common rights of the ordinary man.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I beg to move "That Item Class V, Vote I, Ministry of Health, be reduced by £5."
  The Division which we intend to call will be a Division between those who want to go on at 200,000 houses a year and those who wish to raise the rate to 325,000 houses a year. Those who vote against us tonight are voting against 125,000 houses a year for the common people of this country. After the lamentable exhibition of the Government, both the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary tonight, I have great pleasure in moving the reduction.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 258.

  Division No. 198.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Birch, Nigel

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Bowen, R.

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Bower, N.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Odey, G. W.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Pickthorn, K.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Carson, E.

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Channon, H.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Crowder, Capt, John E.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Darting, Sir W. Y.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  De la Bère, R.

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Donner, P. W.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

  Teeling, William

  Drewe, C.

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Eccles, D. M.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

  Marples, A. E.

  Touche, G. C.

  Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Wakefield, Sir W. W.

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

  Medlicott, Brigadier F.

  White, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Mellor, Sir J.

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Gage, C.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Morris-Jones, Sir H.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Gammans, L. D.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Mr. Studholme and Major Conant.

  NOES

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Baird, J.

  Bevin, Rt. Hon. E. (Wandrworth, C.)

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Balfour, A.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Binns, J.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Barstow, P. G.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Barton, C.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Battley, J. R.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Bachervaise, A. E.

  Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Benson, G.

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exeh'ze)

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Berry, H.

  Bramall, E. A.

  Ayles, W. H.

  Beswick, F.

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Peart, T. F.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Hobson, C. R.

  Popplewell, E.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Holman, P.

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Burden, T. W.

  Horabin, T. L.

  Price, M. Philips.

  Burke, W. A.

  Houghton, A. L. N. D. (Sowerby)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Callaghan, James

  Hoy, J.

  Randall, H. E.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Ranger, J.

  Chamberlain, R. A.

  Hughes, Emrys; (S. Ayr)

  Rees-Williams, D. R.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Reeves, J.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton. W.)

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Irving, W. J. (Tottenham. N.)

  Robens, A.

  Coldrick, W.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Collick, P.

  Janner, B.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Collindridge, F.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Collins, V. J.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Cooper, G.

  Jenkins, R. H.

  Sargood, R.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Sharp, Granville.

  Crawley, A.

  Keenan, W.

  Shurmer, P.

  Daggar, G.

  King, E. M.

  Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

  Daines, P.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Kinley, J.

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

  Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Deer, G.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Lever, N. H.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

  Diamond, J.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Longden, F.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Donovan, T.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  McAdam, W.

  Steele, T.

  Dugdale, J. (W Bromwich)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Dye, S.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Mack, J. D.

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Edelman, M.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  McLeavy, F.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Ewart, R.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Thurtle, Ernest.

  Farthing, W. J.

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Titterington, M. F.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Tolley, L.

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Follick, M.

  Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Foot, M. M.

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Viant, S. P.

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Monslow, W.

  Warbey, W. N.

  George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Moody, A. S.

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Gibbins, J.

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Weitzman, D.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Gilzean, A.

  Mort, D. L.

  Welts, W. T. (Walsall)

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Moyle, A.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John (Edin'gh, E.)

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Natly, W.

  White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Wigg, George

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Gray, C. F.

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Grierson, E.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Gunter, R. J.

  Orbach, M.

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Guy, W. H.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Willis, E.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Woods, G. S.

  Harrison, J.

  Parker, J.

  Yates, V. F.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushchffe)

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Pearson, A.

  Mr. Snow and Mr. George Wallace.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Original Question again proposed.
  It being after Ten o'clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding,
  1922
  the Chairman left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  PATENTS AND DESIGNS [MONEY]
  Resolution reported:
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the enactments relating to Patents and Designs and to provide for the appointment of an additional puisne judge of the High Court, it is expedient to authorise—

  (1) The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any sums required—

  (a) for making payments to patentees and other persons in respect of the use of inventions and registered designs by or with the authority of a Government department under the provisions of the enactments relating to patents and designs as amended by the said Act of the present Session;

  (b) for making payments in pursuance of any provision of the said Act of the present Session authorising the payment of compensation to applicants for patents who suffer hardship by reason of directions given under the provisions of the said Act for ensuring secrecy in respect of inventions relevant for defence purposes or under section twelve of the Atomic Energy Act, 1946; and

  (c) for the payment of remuneration to scientific advisers appointed to assist the Court or the Appeal Tribunal in pursuance of any provision of the said Act of the present Session.

  (2) The payment out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom and out of moneys provided by Parliament of sums equal to the amount of any increase in the sums payable under the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925, out of the said Fund and out of moneys so provided respectively, which may be incurred by reason of the provisions of the said Act of the present Session increasing the maximum number of puisne judges of the High Court."

  FOOTBALL POOLS (PAPER SUPPLIES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Popplewell.]
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. William Teeling: As far back as 23rd June, I asked a Question of the President of the Board of Trade, namely:
  "Whether he will now take steps to annul Section 2 of the Paper (Use in Betting Schemes) Order, 1947.
  He replied firmly:
  "No, Sir. The new order relates to newsprint and will not affect the supply of paper for football pools. If we were to annul this section I am quite satisfied that there would be an increase in the amount of canvassing
  1924
  by football pools, which I am sure none of us wants to encourage."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd June, 1949; Vol. 466, c. 431.]
  I must confess that I was a little bit surprised at the reply, and so were many hon. Members who have taken an interest in the question of betting pools and those 10 million to 12 million people in this country who are pool fans. It will also be within the recollection of this House that during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, some hon. Members who spoke on the Clause dealing with betting pools said that they did not quite understand how the pools worked and exactly what happened. It seemed to me then that far too much stress was put upon the Pools Association and on the promoters who run these pools. Members seemed far too interested in what profit the promoters make and what they do with it. Some Members have said how wicked and evil some of the pools promoters are, but seem completely to forget about the 10 million or more people who subscribe to the pools or take an interest in them. The views of those people were not heard, in spite of the vast number of letters that have been addressed to Members of this House. I therefore want to take up a little time concerning the people who actually subscribe to the football pools.
  The first point made by the President of the Board of Trade was that an increased supply of paper would mean far more canvassing, but that is appallingly inaccurate, as one realises after thinking of the history of the pools. Football pools have been going on in this country since well before the war. In the middle of the 1930's they were a thriving and widespread industry. Then came the war. The Government called the pool promoters together and pointed out that the circulation that went on and the amount of paper that was posted to and from the people subscribing was far too much to be allowed in time of war because the postal service could not possibly control it. With the agreement of the Government the pool promoters decided that no more circularising should take place and that advertisements instead should appear in the newspapers.
  The pool promoters came together and formed themselves into a group known as "Unity." They advertised together in the newspapers. That arrangement went

  1925
  on throughout the war. At the end of the war a gentleman called the Rev. Mr. Bretherton came forward, I understand, and pointed out that it was actually illegal to advertise in the Press something which forecast the future. The case was fought through the courts and a decision was given once one way and something like three times the other way, with the result that it was no longer legal to advertise in the Press. The pool companies then went to the Government and pointed out the situation. The Government came to their aid to the extent of allowing them a certain amount of paper for the time being. After that, Unity Pools broke up and went back to their afterwards, the allowance of paper was based at something like 2.25 per cent. of the pre-war rate. Within a very few weeks that was cut by a further 10 per cent. Then it went down to 1.69 per cent. and, finally, to the present allocation of 1.25 per cent.
  With that final allocation was included, for the first time I believe, the weight of the envelopes. All that happened within 12 months. The weight of envelopes created a new and unpleasant problem. The result was that the football pools, cut down to 1.25 per cent. of their prewar allocation—that is a big cut—had to look round for ways in which to deal with the situation. One of them was to reduce the size of the actual coupons very considerably and another was to deal with the problem of envelopes. It may be flippant, but it has been said and possibly not entirely without reason, that cutting down the size of the coupon and forcing about 10 million people to read these small coupons is—let us face it that the pools are more or less followed by the poorer people—one of the reasons why there has been the immense increase in the demand by poorer people under the new National Health Act for new spectacles. Silly, admittedly, and mildly flippant, but it is a possibility. I cannot look at the coupons without spectacles. I can afford spectacles, but many people cannot and they want to fill in the coupons.
  The envelope problem is far more serious. The football pools people have to think of their own living, and the people who take part in the pools also want to continue. They had, therefore, to think out a scheme, and it was decided to
  1926
  get old envelopes and use them again. That has gone on to such an extent that the envelopes have become completely insanitary. People are using envelopes four, five, six and seven times, sticking them together in every possible way. It has caused a considerable amount of unpleasantness and disgust. Some of the envelopes are filthy. I believe that Post Office officials have made official complaints about the filth. When one thinks of 10 million people using these envelopes, one realises that there is probably some point in it. I have had letters about this from my constituents, one saying that he got some kind of unpleasant sores which his doctor told him could quite easily have come from that filthy type of envelope. I believe that the Board of Trade have already realised that and that something has been done or is being done about envelopes. We cannot continue on that basis.
  The general question of unfairness has been mentioned in previous Debates on this subject. Why is it that this is being done? Why are these people being chosen for victimisation in this way? They were brought down suddenly after the war to just over 2 per cent. of their pre-war allocation and then, slowly but surely, reduced to 1.25. Eventually the weight of the envelope is included in the allocation, creating a very considerable difficulty. What is the reason for that? If one looks at other businesses, one sees them gradually going the other way. Since the war, as things have improved there has been considerable relief allowed, not only for ordinary businesses but for those which are direct rivals of the betting pools. They have been allowed to increase their paper allocation slowly but surely by something like 20 per cent. For what reason? Not only to carry on their businesses but also to advertise them.
  Nothing like that is allowed to the betting pools, and the hon. Gentleman who is to reply might give me some reason for that. The feeling amongst people who take part in those pools is, why are they being treated in this way? It is considered by many people to be the least evil form of betting. In fact I believe there are some members of the churches who consider that it is not betting at all but a real way of "studying form," and therefore they take part in it. I gather that there are quite a num-

  1927
  ber of clergy on the books of the most respectable pools.
  As if this victimisation is not enough, we move on to the Board of Trade using another method, presumably, of stopping the betting pools—namely, by adding a halfpenny which has to be paid in advance for every coupon received. I can understand that happening immediately after the war. I can understand people thinking that to make people pay a halfpenny in advance would make them think twice before taking part and, furthermore, it would make it impossible for circularisation to take place until the halfpenny had been paid. In actual fact what happened was that the halfpenny having been put on and the decision made that they should pay in advance, every 24 weeks or the whole year, for so many copies of coupons canvassers were produced.
  That brings me back to my opening question, why did the President of the Board of Trade say that by taking off the halfpenny or by allowing the annulment of this Order, it would mean an increase of canvassers? There were no canvassers until this thing started after the war. There was no need for them. It was only when the halfpenny was put on that canvassers went round to canvass people to pay their halfpennies. Not everybody wanted to go on indefinitely, because they had to pay over a period of weeks. Many decided after two or three weeks that they were "browned off" and did not go on. The net result was that they still received coupons—which is a sheer waste of paper—right through the year because they had been made to pay in advance.
  Everyone connected with the pools industry would be only too glad if they could take off that halfpenny. It helps nobody particularly. It would definitely stop, instead of increasing, canvassers. I think I can safely say that if the halfpenny were taken off it would not increase the numbers of people taking part because the allocation of paper has already been so hedged round that there could not legally be more paper allowed. That being so, there could not be any further waste of paper in that way; by taking off the halfpenny there would be no earthly reason for canvassers in the future. A further reason why people object to canvassers is that in the pre-
  1928
  sent state of the country as many people as possible should be engaged on worthwhile employment.
  Everybody who knows says that to get rid of the halfpenny will get rid of the canvassers, and that would be a tremendous asset from the point of view of worth while employment. But, from what I have seen and studied, I do not think that the pools as such are using a vast amount of wasted labour other than canvassers. After all, the Control of Engagement Order is still in existence and the Ministry of Labour, as far as I know—I should like to be challenged on this—have never had any form of complaint from the pools or any rows with them on the application of that Order. I understand that a certain amount of disabled labour is used, and I believe in Merseyside, where most of the pool firms come from, there is already quite a considerable amount of unemployment. Therefore, the number of people employed in the pools is not really affecting the country's output in more constructive work but is, on the contrary, a useful asset to stop our unemployment figures from increasing.
  I know that at least one hon. Gentleman opposite wishes to speak in this Debate, and I say no more than to plead with the Board of Trade seriously to study this matter once again. Obviously they have already done so, judging by the repeals of different orders regarding paper releases. I plead, not on behalf of the Pools' Association or pool owners, but on behalf of the people who take part in these pools. Let them have clean and sanitary envelopes and reasonable sized paper; let them be rid of the canvassers, and let them be given a fair and square deal on the same terms as the other different betting organisations which are not subject in the same way to taxation, but which compete with them.
  10.28 p.m.
  Mr. Nally: I have a great regard for the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling), and I am sorry to say that on this issue I can only regard him as an honest man who has fallen among what, I think, could be described as extremely doubtful characters. I had great difficulty in preventing myself bursting into tears as he unfolded this tale of the trials and tribulations of the pools since

  1929
  the beginning of the war. Let us dispose of that argument right away. In 1945 the pools, under the Unity Pool operation, were sending through the post two million envelopes. In 1946, when Unity Pools broke up, the figure had leapt from two million to 7½ million. In 1947, it had risen another 1¼ million to 8,750,000. In 1948, it reached 9½ million. In 1949 these poor wretched victims of the Board of Trade bureaucracy were sending out precisely 10¼ million envelopes. That is to say, whereas in 1945 this wretched industry, persecuted by the Board of Trade, was sending out two million circulars, in 1949 it was sending out 10¼ million.
  Mr. Teeling: They were using secondhand envelopes.
  Mr. Nally: I am not concerned about envelopes. The coupons inside were completely new.
  Let me deal with the plaintive point made by the hon. Gentleman about the payment of 2s. Let us face up to reality. The position is not altogether as he described it. To an increasing extent the 2s. is not paid at all. I have in my hand a document recently issued by Bond's, a subsidiary of Littlewood's of Liverpool, which was circulated to all their considerable number of clients. This is what they say:
  "If you collect 2s. from each of your five friends we do not require the 2s. You can keep it."
  In short, all that needs to be done on this slip of paper is for a person to sign that he has paid the 2s. and for the agent to sign that he has received it. No cash passes at all in the majority of cases. The agent gets his commission and the 2s. simply does not pass. As competition for that method, I am given to understand that last week the three largest football firms, instead of collecting the 2s., offered every agent 3s.; so that what the agent has to do is to collect no cash but automatically to receive 1s. for every name he sends in on the slip of paper.
  If the football pools can afford to find paper to go touting and explaining a legal way to evade the 2s. charge, I should have thought that the paper so used could have been used in some part to make the plain envelopes for which the soul of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) craves. The regulation as
  1930
  it now stands is subject to abuses. For example, Shermans and I.T.P., have opened shops throughout the country at which cash is collected and coupons distributed. The main purpose of the shops is to evade the regulations in regard to paper. Coupons are dished out to anyone who goes to these shops and no money for them is collected.
  I consider that far from being over-brutal to the pools the Board of Trade has been over-generous. To try to suggest that the football pool firms are only getting about one-seventieth of the paper they got before the war is sheer nonsense. Many borough billposting companies could prove that by the amount of paper advertising pools on their hoardings. Far from being too harsh, the Board of Trade has gone to the other extreme. With the exception of two large football pool firms, every single football pool company since 1946 has been more or less breaking the regulations. Each pool has been devising very clever legal devices to get over the regulations. No one knows that better than the Parliamentary Secretary who is going to reply.
  Mr. Teeling: May I ask the hon. Member with regard to the 2s. whether it is not true that if the 2s. were got rid of, there would be no need for the agents?
  Mr. Nally: The agents are not employed primarily to collect the 2s. They are employed to get more and more people taking more and more coupons and spending more and more money in more and more pools.
  10.33 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Edwards): I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising these points. I am not concerned tonight with the ethics of pools. It does not bother me much whether it is compatible with this or that theological belief to fill in a football pool coupon.
  In the short time left to me, I should like to comment on one or two of the points that have been made. First, with regard to the requirement that no coupon can be distributed except to a person who has paid the ½d., the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) is right in saying that this was first introduced as a means of saving paper. On balance, my right hon. Friend has concluded that this ought to be retained, at any rate,

  1931
  during the current year. I say "on balance" advisedly, because I have looked at this matter carefully and it has given great anxiety both to my right hon. Friend and my predecessor as to whether we got any help towards our main objective, which is, after all, to avoid the unnecessary use of labour. We finally concluded that probably we did. There is not very much to it. We decided not to take it off this year.
  The hon. Member will, I think, have realised that we did recently make a new order, namely, Order No. 1100 of 1949, which was made on 13th June and came into operation on 1st July. That was in substitution of Order No. 2247 of 1947. This new order has, I think, certain definite advantages because it will enable the licensing control to be modified to some extent by enabling the Board of Trade to issue licences for any period, instead of for the stated four-monthly periods which apply to the use of paper by unlicensed football pool firms, and will also enable the Board of Trade to make, under licence, allocations of paper for envelopes and labels used in the distribution of coupons.
  In the past we have had one licence for the total allocation; in future, we propose to give one licence for the contents of the packet sent to the pool's client, and another for the envelope and/or label used by the pool to send the contents through the post to the client. I believe that, under the new system, it will no longer be an incentive for pools to reconstruct envelopes from old coupons as they have done in the past; and I think that, whatever may be the argument about the use or misuse of paper, now that supplies are much easier we really ought to get away from some of the quite abominable reconstructions going through the post. All this is to make it possible for us—and it is our intention so to do—to give licences for envelopes independently of the licences given for the actual paper coupons and related material.
  Mr. Teeling: Can the hon. Gentleman say when that is likely to happen?
  Mr. Edwards: It will happen forthwith. It will happen in any licences
  1932
  which we issue from now on. I am not talking of the total amount; what I am saying is that it will be possible to allocate as between one and the other. As regards the future, it is a little early to say precisely how the paper shall be allocated in respect of the next season. I might say that it is, I think, desirable to find a method of allocating the paper which will have within it some possibility of flexibility and which will not in any way freeze the various firms concerned on their 1947–48 level. It seems to me that that flexibility is desirable.
  Mr. Nally: Does this apply outwards and downwards?
  Mr. Edwards: I would say so. We have to find some more accurate process by which to assess the firm's active clients and in this field competition need not be absent. It is quite wrong to go on the assumption that there was a particular level of activity with this firm and that firm, and that we should keep it like that in successive years.
  Our licensing control system does impose a limit on the amount of paper used by football pools. If information is given to us which shows that there is a real mis-use of paper so that the effect is that the pools are not keeping to their quota, I assure the House that we shall take action. The licensing of paper is a fairly slight instrument to use for what, after all, is, I submit, a major economic purpose. We do not want to have the pools employing more people than are necessary, and we want to limit the number of people employed in going out and getting clients. Licensing of paper is not a 100 per cent. effective method, but it is one way and, while desiring flexibility in the new football pools system, we will, I hope, make it more effective than in the past. We have given some thought to this matter, and, within the limitations necessarily imposed on us, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are doing our best.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Steel-framed Buildings
  Steel-framed Buildings
  Wells House Hotel, Ilkley
  Wells House Hotel, Ilkley
  Roadhouse, Barnet
  Roadhouse, Barnet
  The Mall (Pedestrian Traffic)
  The Mall (Pedestrian Traffic)
  Royal Parks (Maintenance)
  Royal Parks (Maintenance)
  New Huts, Worcester
  New Huts, Worcester
  Commons Chamber (Building Operations)
  Commons Chamber (Building Operations)
  Bridge, Snape (Preservation)
  Bridge, Snape (Preservation)
  Building Firms, Wisbech Area
  Building Firms, Wisbech Area
  Admiralty Building (Restoration)
  Admiralty Building (Restoration)
  House, Purley Corner (Condition)
  House, Purley Corner (Condition)
FUEL AND POWER
  C Licence Holders (Petrol)
  C Licence Holders (Petrol)
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
COAL INDUSTRY
  Board (Membership)
  Board (Membership)
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Sugar (Excise Duty)
  Sugar (Excise Duty)
  Contracts
  Contracts
  White Fish
  White Fish
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
TRANSPORT
  Road Undertakings (Acquisition)
  Road Undertakings (Acquisition)
  Lamlash Pier
  Lamlash Pier
  Road Passenger Executive
  Road Passenger Executive
  Long-Term Road Plans
  Long-Term Road Plans
  Ferries Report
  Ferries Report
GERMANY
  Max Reimann (Sentence)
  Max Reimann (Sentence)
  Political Refugees
  Political Refugees
  AFRICAN TRANSPORT CONFERENCE
  AFRICAN TRANSPORT CONFERENCE
AGRICULTURE
  Machinery (Spare Parts)
  Machinery (Spare Parts)
  European Volunteer Workers, Ruthin
  European Volunteer Workers, Ruthin
  PENSIONS TRIBUNALS
  PENSIONS TRIBUNALS
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Racecourse Betting Control Board
  Racecourse Betting Control Board
  Income Tax (Relief)
  Income Tax (Relief)
  Stamp Duty
  Stamp Duty
  Estate Duty
  Estate Duty
  Life Annuity Contracts
  Life Annuity Contracts
  Gold Prices
  Gold Prices
  STEEL AND COPPER TUBING
  STEEL AND COPPER TUBING
EDUCATION
  Emergency-Trained Teachers
  Emergency-Trained Teachers
  Blacklisted Schools
  Blacklisted Schools
  HANDCRAFTS (EXPORT)
  HANDCRAFTS (EXPORT)
  NURSES, EIRE (RECRUITMENT)
  NURSES, EIRE (RECRUITMENT)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY CONVENTION) BILL
  2.35 p.m.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without amendment.

IRON AND STEEL BILL
2.36 p.m.
House again in Committee (according to Order).
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 38 [Accounts and audit and statistics]:
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved, to add to the clause:
"( ) Where it appears from the accounts of a publicly-owned company that in any year such publicly-owned company has incurred a loss from its activities taken together the report of the Corporation required under section four of this Act shall draw attention to such loss and to the circumstances in which it has been incurred."
The noble Lord said: Under Clause 38 (3) (b) the Corporation are excused, where group accounts are produced, from producing the accounts of individual companies. This Amendment makes it certain that when a loss is made by a publicly-owned company the fact that the loss has been made, and the reasons for such loss, shall be published. It does not make it obligatory to publish the accounts of the particular company making the loss, though public opinion would no doubt demand it. This Amendment makes it certain that some degree of individuality will remain and that everything will not be swallowed up in the group. Some time ago the cry was for larger and larger units in industry, but in private circles this tendency has now been discredited. I believe that the moment you reach the size when the boss does not know every employee you begin to lose efficiency, and that loss can be made up only by some countervailing
748
advantages of size. It is now generally agreed that those countervailing advantages are by no means as abundant as was once thought.
Euclid has said that the area of the whole figure is the sum of the area of its component parts. The efficiency of the whole industry is surely the sum of the efficiency of its component parts. Noble Lords may say that profit is not the sole criterion of efficiency. I agree —the Coal Board have recently made a profit, and the Minister of Supply made a profit in a rising market. But I do not know whether there is a better yardstick for efficiency in industry, and profit-making may be the only type of internal competition that will remain in the iron and steel industry. It is the yardstick certainly understood by management, and if profits are sometimes deceptive losses are certainly the sign of trouble and require investigation. In this Bill there is no provision requiring individual companies to operate at a profit. There is all the more reason to know when they operate at a loss. We believe that this Amendment is necessary to preserve the esprit de corps, to maintain individuality, to promote efficiency, to preserve an element of competition inside the nationalised industry and to provide a warning signal if things are going wrong. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 46, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD TEYNHAM: This Amendment would have the effect of securing a little more information for the benefit of the unfortunate taxpayer who, so far as I can see, seems to be altogether left out of this Bill as drafted. Surely it is only right that the public, who are in fact the owners of this Corporation, should know in what circumstances a loss is incurred, and whether it is a publicly-owned company, which has incurred this loss. It may well happen that one company will he used to subsidise another over a period of years without the public—the owner—knowing anything at all about it. That situation might easily lead to unfair competition. I can see no reason at all why His Majesty's Government should not accept this Amendment. Surely it is their intention that each of the publicly-owned companies should stand on its own feet and be financially sound. I have little

749
doubt that the effect of this Amendment, if it is accepted, will be that the Corporation will be careful to see that no losses are incurred by the publicly-owned companies. I am sure that we all desire that there should be no such losses by these publicly-owned companies; and, if they are incurred, we feel they should be disclosed with the details of the circumstances surrounding the losses.
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENNHAM): I hope that the arguments which prevailed in another place will prevail this afternoon. A similar Amendment was moved there, but when an explanation was offered the spokesman of the Opposition felt that it covered the point. I will not pursue very far the general question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, because we discussed all these matters the other night. But under the Amendment that was carried then against the Government, in the teeth of our very strong opposition, the accounts of all these companies will be published. However, we cannot accept this Amendment, and therefore the House will, no doubt, wish to consider the matter in the light of what the Government propose. Even if that Amendment had not been carried, we could feel plenty of confidence that the information would be available. As I explained the other evening, detailed accounts will be filed with the Registrar of Companies, so there is no question of the information not being available. Information will be available and accessible to those who care to pay a small fee to the Registrar of Companies. I venture to ask noble Lords opposite whether they really desire to impose a particular obligation of this kind on the Corporation when forwarding its report to the Minister.
As was indicated in another place, there are all sorts of matters which are more important than this and which it will be necessary to include in the report of the Corporation. If we insist that this one matter must be referred to in the report, and leave out other more important matters, we may be defeating the very object which the noble Lord has in view. In other words, I am sure that if there are persistent losses of this kind it will be perfectly well known to the public; the accounts will be obtainable through the Registrar and the Minister can he pressed for particulars about them. Under Clause 4
750
(5) he can, if necessary, call for additional information and, if the public feel that additional information is necessary they can press the Minister for it, and I have no doubt that he will Ellie full consideration to their wishes and produce it. I ask the Committee not to insist on this Amendment which would put one particular obligation upon the Corporation in regard to a matter which, though of interest and significance, is not so important as some other matters which will be dealt with in the report.
LORD WOLVERTON: I think this matter is very important. Under present legislation, if any of its group of subsidiary companies have made a loss, a holding company has lo put in its consolidated accounts so that the shareholders can see them. We have been told time after time that this Corporation is a holding company, and I think the public have a right, through the Corporation, to know which of those companies has made a loss, otherwise they have to go to London and pay a fee to see the accounts. Can a copy of the balance sheet be sent by post?
LORD PAKENHAM: I did not catch the noble Lord's last observation.
LORD WOLVERTON: The noble Lord said that by paying a small fee anybody could go to Somerset House to see whether any of the operating companies had made a loss. That means that a person has to travel to London and pay a fee. Can a copy of the accounts be sent by post, or has a person to go to London?
LORD PAKENHAM: I am not sure about that last point, but cannot regard that as an insuperable objection for someone really interested. These accounts will be available to the public. Do let us be clear about that. They will be available to the public, and we must disabuse ourselves of any idea that in some way they will be hidden away. They will be available to anybody who is anxious, interested and desirous, to inform the public how they are going. There is no question of this information not being completely accessible to everybody.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: Would the noble Lord help us about one point which might determine our attitude towards this matter? There was an Amendment made by Division the other

751
day to secure the publication of accounts. If the noble Lord can indicate to us that, on consideration, His Majesty's Government are going to retain that Amendment it would of course condition our attitude towards this one. If that Amendment is to be retained, then the accounts will be much more readily accessible to the public than under the procedure which he has outlined. I appreciate that it may not be possible for him to say now, but it would certainly be advantageous to our consideration of the Bill if we knew that it was to be retained.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I want to support what has been said by my noble friend Lord Clydesmuir. The whole of Lord Pakenham's argument turns on whether that Amendment is to be retained. If that Amendment subsequently goes by the board, then this particular Amendment becomes all the more important. I would like to point out that Lord Pakenham, in his first speech, said that if losses were incurred by publicly-owned companies that fact would be perfectly well known to the public. I submit that he was quite wrong in saying that. Later on he said they would be available to the public if they so desired. But the accounts would not be perfectly well known because they could not be inspected publicly unless they were sought after through the Registrar. I think it is the duty of the Corporation in their report to make these losses known to the public. The noble Lord rather insinuated that it was an unimportant part of the report. I submit it would be one of the most important parts of the report, to show to Parliament and to the public whether these publicly-owned companies were making a profit or loss. It was pointed out by the mover of the Amendment that Clause 31 provides that the Corporation and the publicly-owned companies as a whole shall make ends meet. Surely it is only logical, following on that clause, to make provision that individual companies shall also show that they are making ends meet. I think there is a great deal more to this Amendment than the noble Lord has tried to make out, and I hope very much that on due consideration he will accept it before the Bill goes to another place.
LORD HAWKE: Before the noble Lord replies may I ask him a question
752
about which I am in some doubt? An Amendment was passed to Clause 38, to the effect that
"the accounts of each publicly-owned company shall give or be accompanied by a statement giving separate information as respects to each of the principal activities,"
et cetera. That presupposes that the accounts of each publicly-owned company shall be published. And yet in subsection 3 (b) of this clause there is definitely a "let-out," in that where group accounts are published it is not necessary for the separate accounts of the publicly-owned companies to be published. Which prevails—the Amendment carried or subsection (3) (b)? Must these accounts be published separately by each publicly-owned company, or where group accounts are published can you leave out the components?
LORD PAKENHAM: I do not know whether the noble Lord is putting to me a legal point which he feels—
LORD HAWKE: An interpretation of the Bill.
LORD PAKENHAM: I have no new legal advice. If he asks: "Does the Amendment which was carried last time prevail over the original proposal of the Government?", the answer is that for the time being, presumably (I am speaking on this without legal advice), it does. That, I take it, was why noble Lords persisted in inserting the Amendment.
I have been asked whether there is any likelihood of the Government accepting the Amendment which was carried. I can say only that I think it most unlikely that the Government will accept it. I have not been in touch with my right honourable friend since it was carried, but judging from his previous attitude, and from the considered attitude of the Government, I think we must assume that the Government will resist that Amendment by every constitutional means. I have no information which suggests that the Government have changed their minds, and I think that it is wise to assume that the Government will not change their minds on that particular point. The noble Earl, Lord Dudley, accused me of insinuating something. I hope that he did not mean that in any unpleasant way—I take it that he was using the term in quite a friendly fashion. But, at any rate, the

753
noble Earl says that my argument loses all validity once we assume that the Government will insist on replacing the clause. The noble Earl suggests that my argument would apply only if the Amendment which was carried last time stood. Honestly, that is not so. Our whole point is—and we made it in resisting that Amendment— that the information will be there. The group accounts will be published, but where there are group accounts individual accounts will not be published, although they will be available.
I do not think it is advisable to handy words, and I do not propose to do so on the question as to whether they will be "known" or "available" to the public. There will be no automatic process by which accounts become "known" to everyone when they are filed with the Registrar, any more than if they were included in the report of the Corporation. But they will be completely available. Any financial journalist, any noble Lord will be able, if he wishes, to obtain full information concerning them. If he sees anything which he considers discreditable, no doubt he will be able to draw attention to it. As I say, we need not bandy words on this point. Whether the Amendment stands, (and, as I say, I have no reason to think the Government will agree to it), or whether the original clause goes back, this information will be available: there will be no question of it being "wrapped up." In the circumstances, I suggest that it would be a great mistake to impose this unnecessary obligation, which may cause trouble, on the Corporation. I beg noble Lords, whatever the view they may take with regard to the last Amendment, to agree that in another place they were right when they decided not to press this one to a Division.
LORD LLOYD: I am sorry to interpose but I would like to ask the noble Lord one question. He said that this information would be available. I put this to him specifically. If I am a financial journalist, and I go to the Registrar of Companies, I shall, presumably, be handed a set of group accounts. Now suppose I say: "I want more than this. I want the component accounts from which these group accounts were made up—that is the accounts of the companies which form these group accounts." Do I understand that the Registrar, with
754
a charming smile, will say: "Here you are," and hand me the lot?
LORD PAKENHAM: I cannot guarantee the charm, but I can guarantee the accounts.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: Perhaps I may be allowed to put the noble Lord right on a point of detail. The Registrar might be charming, but he would not present anyone with the whole lot of the accounts. He would say: "Copy them if you like."
LORD HAWKE: I think I might add to that that he would not divulge until he got his money. Frankly, I do not think the noble Lord has given us an adequate answer. He has glossed over the more important part of the Amendment, which is that the Corporation should give its comments on the losses. The financial journalist, when he goes to Somerset House, will not find the comments, of the Corporation, even if he finds all the individual accounts. The language of our Amendment and its impact on the other are, perhaps, matters which we might give further examination. I suggest to the noble Lord that he should think over the fact that it is the comment of the Corporation on these losses which is the most important point of the Amendment. Nevertheless, I think that at this stage we ought not to press the Amendment. We shall have to reserve our action for later consideration, and reserve for still later consideration the possible action which another place may take on the last Amendment. In the circumstances, I beg lease to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 39:
Machinery for settling terms and conditions of employment of staff, etc.
39.—(l) Except so far as the Corporation are satisfied that adequate machinery exists for achieving the purposes of this section, it shall be the duty of the Corporation, either directly, or indirectly by exercising control over publicly-owned companies, to seek consultation with any organisation appearing to them to be appropriate with a view to the conclusion between the Corporation and that organisation or, if the Corporation so decide, between publicly-owned companies and that organisation, of such agreements as appear to the parties to be desirable with respect to the establishment and maintenance of machinery for—

755

(a) the settlement by negotiation of terms and conditions of employment of persons employed by the Corporation, and by publicly-owned companies with provision for reference to arbitration in default of such settlement in such cases as may be determined by or under the agreements; and

(b) the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting the safety, health and welfare of persons employed by the Corporation and by publicly-owned companies and the discussion of other matters of mutual interest to the Corporation and those companies and such persons, including efficiency in the operation of the business of the Corporation and those companies.

2.57 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that if the conclusion of any such agreement is likely to affect the interests of other employers carrying on activities similar to those carried on by the Corporation or by publicly-owned companies, such agreement shall not be concluded by the Corporation or any publicly-owned company except after consultation with such organisations as appear to the Corporation to represent the interests of such employers."
The noble Lord said: We now come to most important clauses 'which deal with conditions of employment, pension rights and compensation of officers, on which clauses there are several Amendments to be discussed. The purpose of the Amendment which I now move is to ensure that privately-owned corn-panics operating in the same field as publicly-owned companies are made aware from the outset of, and allowed to participate in, any negotiations on matters mentioned in these clauses undertaken by the Corporation or by the publicly-owned companies. The arguments in support of that purpose can be summarised quite briefly. The first, is that publicly-owned companies, in so far as they make or process iron or steel, will be competing in the same labour market as the independent men who are licensed to produce iron and steel under the provisions of the Bill. Secondly, and even more important, in so far as concerns the extraneous activities of the Corporation—which, as we know, range from tennis racquets to nails —they will be in competition for labour with a very large range of private industry.
Unless the Corporation are obliged to take these smaller producers, and these men who are engaged in similar production to the extraneous activities of the
756
Corporation, into consultation on matters such as wages, conditions of work and welfare, these persons and organisations outside the Corporation will gradually be forced out of business. It is the experience of the industry that concessions granted in one locality or in one sphere of work are very quickly claimed over the whole of industry, and, of course, the Corporation is going to be in a very favourable position as regards financial backing and financial facilities. Prior consultation, which is asked for, will not remove this possibility but it will at any rate give privately-owned companies an opportunity of representing their views and putting their case at the bar of public opinion. I would like to make one thing quite clear—and I feel sure the Government will accept this statement—that this Amendment is not intended in any way to impede reasonable developments in wage rates or to stop improvement in conditions of work or welfare, but it is designed to prevent unilateral action by the Corporation and publicly-owned companies in a common field. Unless it is obligatory for the Corporation and the publicly-owned companies to consult the licensed and free undertakings, there is a danger that the whole of the industrial relations structure within the industry, which has grown up and been most successful over so long a period, will disintegrate, to the detriment of nationalised and non-nationalised industry alike.
A similar Amendment was moved in another place and negatived on a Division. The Minister's main argument on that occasion was that it might be impossible for consultation to take place. He said that, for instance, an agreement might affect some small body of employers of whose interest the Corporation was not aware at all. We took note of the Minister's view and altered the Amendment so as to meet the point he made. In the Amendment put forward in another place the obligation was
"after consultation with the organisations or persons representing the interests of such employers."
In the present Amendment the wording has been altered to read,
"after consultation with such organisations as appear to the Corporation to represent the interests of such employers."
This not only meets the point made by the Minister in another place, but it also

757
has the desirable effect of writing into the Bill the Minister's own statement which I have quoted. This is a well-intentioned Amendment which I think is very reasonable, and I hope the Government will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 29, al end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
LORD CLYDESMUIR: I should like to support the Amendment moved by my noble friend. The machinery in the iron and steel industry for settling wages questions is almost unique. It works very satisfactorily. It has borne the test of long years at a time when there was unrest in many industries—I refer to the decade after the last war, when the iron and steel industry was almost free (indeed, I might say it was free) from such troubles. I attribute that largely to the satisfactory nature of the machinery and the way in which it has worked. A large number of employers' organisations have grouped themselves together to meet the men, whose unions are also grouped. If nationalisation becomes a fact, the Government will fall heir to this very fine machine. The point already made by my noble friend is very important—namely, that there is a danger that the machine might perhaps, not disintegrate—that is too strong a word—but be very adversely affected if trouble arose between the free or licensed firms outside in some of the ancillary lines of business and the great Corporation with its iron and steelmaking publicly-owned companies.
So far as I can see, the labour relations and welfare problems of the privately-owned companies are almost forgotten in the Bill. There seems to be no reference to them, except as an afterthought in subsection (3). I believe that if the Government felt able to accept this Amendment it would ensure that there was, in labour and welfare matters, a high degree of contact between the privately-owned companies remaining outside and the great steel Corporation employing many thousands of men. I hope the Government recognise that this is intended to he a thoughtful and helpful Amendment. I urge that it should be treated in that light and careful consideration given to it. It would be an unhappy thing if the steel trade became nationalised and then some trouble that arose as between the State-
758
owned companies and privately-owned companies widened, and relations were affected throughout the steel trade. I attach importance to this Amendment and rank it high on our list as one of real importance to the human side of the industry. Up to now we have not dealt very much with this, perhaps the most important side of all, a side of the industry in which real advance has been achieved in recent times. This is a relatively small point, but I hope the Government will see their way to meet it.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I should like to say a word confirming what has already been said by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inehrye, and the noble Lord who has just spoken. A good deal has been said about the good conduct story of the iron and steel industry so far. I have been a member of the Executive Committee of the Federation for a good many years and know something about how that good conduct story has been achieved. It has been achieved largely through complete and comprehensive consultations at all levels on all matters everywhere, taking into consideration anything that was or importance, minor and major, to the industry and anything affecting minority views, interests and opinions. Unless that sort of thing is kept up by the Corporation after it comes into being, then this good conduct story is hound to end. The Central Wages Board, for instance, settle all questions of wages in the industry as a whole, taking into consideration all questions relating to wages ranging throughout the whole industry, and all minority views and interests are taken into strict and close consideration. I can assure noble Lords opposite that there is a feeling among the undertakings who will be free or licensed under the Bill that they are going to have a very difficult time in competing with this enormous caucus, vested, as it will be, with special and outstanding powers and privileges which may not be available to other people. It is most important that the Government should do their utmost to do away with that feeling and give the smaller people, who are going to be very important for the country and the Corporation and the Minister, a little more confidence in the future, and make them feel that they will be brought into consultation a little more. Here is an opportunity for the Government to do that very thing. I

759
think it is important that the Government should either accept this Amendment or, if the drafting does not suit them, something very similar.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): If I may use a modern phrase which is becoming popular, I could not agree more with most of the discussions taking place on this Amendment with regard to the excellent arrangements which have obtained for a very long time in the iron and steel industry. I can say only that, while for a reason which I will explain in a moment I am unfortunately not able to accept the Amendment, the Government are entirely in favour of continuing these relations and, if possible, improving on them. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, said that private employers must be made aware of the proposals. Of course those proposals would not normally be initiated by the Corporation, but by the organised employees or employers. It would then become public that negotiations were taking place. I think the attitude of the Government is clearly conveyed by subsection (3) of Clause 39, to which the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, referred. Subsection (3) says:
"Nothing in this section shall be construed as prohibiting the Corporation or a publicly-owned company from taking part together with other employers or organisations of employers in the establishment and maintenance of machinery for the settlement of terms and conditions of employment and the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting the safety, health and welfare of persons employed by them and the discussion of other matters of mutual interest to them and persons employed by them."
I think those words give a clear and definite indication of the Government's purpose, so the point comes down to a very small one—namely, why the Government, while agreeing with most of what has been said, are unable to accept this Amendment.
The reason why the Government cannot accept the Amendment is that they would feel bound in respect of the wide range of activities with which they would be concerned to consult other employers where there is a remote possibility of their being affected. The Corporation could be relied upon to make the desirable consultations where necessary; for
760
example, the negotiation of a new wages agreement with a particular union, a substantial proportion of whose members were in the employment of private interests. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour, who moved this Amendment, referred to what happened in another place. He said they recognised the validity of what the Minister then said, which was to the effect that the Corporation would adopt a common-sense attitude, and would, where appropriate, consult all employers' organisations concerned. He was opposed to cluttering up the Bill with instructions to the Corporation to act in a commonsense manner. Moreover, the Minister argued that it might be dangerous, because if the Corporation failed to consult some small body of employers with remote interests, of which the Corporation were not aware, an agreement reached with the unions, although satisfactory to everybody concerned, might be invalidated.
The noble Lord said that as a result of that statement of the Minister the terms of this Amendment had been slightly altered. My difficulty is that I am advised that the revised Amendment, if I may use that term, is still unsatisfactory, because under it the Corporation must go looking around to find every type of employers' organisation which might be remotely affected. And if they did not succeed, and if thereafter it was discovered that they had missed one of these small organisations, the agreement made would be invalidated. I want to give a firm assurance that the Government desire to continue the existing machinery. If the noble Lord would look again at the point of his Amendment between now and Report stage—because I am advised that on legal grounds it still does not meet what he has in mind—perhaps we shall then be able to accept an Amendment.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am sorry I have been unable to be here for the whole of this discussion, but I would like to say a few words. Obviously we are very near agreement on this. The Government mean that where any substantial interest is involved they are certain that there will be consultation. We thought we had met the Minister's point by the word "appear." However, I can see that these words might impose a duty to look around

761
and, even where the smallest conceivable interest was affected, where the Corporation knew about it, that negotiations might be held up, which neither the Corporation nor the majority of the outside employers wanted held up. I would like something in the Bill, and I do not think it would clutter it up. I feel it is important—and this is common to both sides—to retain, not only in the iron and steel but in the engineering industries the extraordinarily well-established system of negotiation. There has been trouble enough lately with the difficulty of maintaining this well-tried machinery. Therefore, I would like to see in the Bill something which takes into account and registers that there is a first-class organisation, not only in the steel trade but in many of these engineering firms outside. We have to remember—the noble Lord said this--that we are taking over ninety-four companies with a whole lot of subsidiaries, and many negotiations will be concerned not only with the Iron and Steel Federation but with the engineering and other unions who will come in. The noble Lord will see the difficulty in the argument which is going on to-day in the railway organisation: the shopmen say that if an agreement is made with the railwaymen it cuts across an agreement with the shopmen. Therefore, I would like to have in the Bill words to which we can all subscribe and which would show that, where there is a substantial agreement involved, then the negotiations would follow.
LORD MORRISON: In reply to the noble Viscount, I can say only that, in any conversations that take place before the next stage of the Bill, this matter might well be included to see whether it is possible to meet this point at which we are both aiming.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I am grateful to the noble Lord. There is nothing of principle between us, but only the application of the principle. We shall be happy to enter into consultations, so that either the Government might put down an Amendment, or we might put down another Amendment, at a later stage. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 39 agreed to.
Clause 40 [Provisions as to pension rights]:
3.18 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, after subsection (2) to insert as a new subsection:
"( ) In the case of persons who have been in the employment of companies which come into public ownership any regulations made under this section shall be so framed as to secure that where either—

(a) an expectation of accruer under customary practice of any particular benefits in favour of any such person, or in favour of another person by reference to the employment of any such person ceases or is prejudiced by reason of the vesting of securities by virtue of this Act; or

(b) any such person has retired from employment as aforesaid before the date of transfer and he or another person by reference to his employment has been in receipt of benefits granted in respect of his employment under customary practice;

the same benefits, or substituted benefits not less advantageous, shall be provided for by or under the regulations."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to protect the position of the individual who may expect a pension in accordance with the established practice of his company, even though no pension scheme is in force in his company. This is a somewhat complicated matter, and I will endeavour to make my point in as few words as possible. Subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 40 refer to pension schemes, pension funds, and pension rights under a scheme. Regulations which the Minister may make can deal only with rights under a scheme. The definition of "pension rights" on page 59, says that it
"includes…any expectation of the accruer of a pension…under any customary practice…"
Since the provision that persons shall be no worse off refers only to pension rights under a scheme, the position of persons having pension rights which derive from an expectation of accruer under customary practice is not safeguarded by the definition which I have just read to the Committee.
A similar Amendment to this was moved in another place, but was withdrawn on an undertaking by the Government to insert "customary practice" in the definition of "pension scheme." The Government fulfilled that undertaking, but we feel that the position still remains

763
unsatisfactory, because the definition on page 59 now reads:
"'pension scheme' includes any form of arrangement for the payment of pensions, whether subsisting by…customary practice or otherwise."
Persons having such an expectation include those who do not have pension rights deriving from a pension scheme but who have grounds for expecting that, in accordance with the normal practice of their company, they will in due course receive a pension similar to that paid by the company to other comparable individuals, even though no actual pension scheme exists. Nothing may exist which could be described as even a form of arrangement. It is to cover these cases that this Amendment is proposed.
The Amendment will also cover another class of case, which is not so common—that of persons who are promised, on their entry into a firm, that they will receive a pension, dependent upon the prosperity and circumstances of the company at the time when they retire. This Amendment also seeks to safeguard the rights of persons who are receiving a pension as a result of, say, the employment of the husband. It is usual, if an employee dies, for the firm to pay his dependants a pension. In some cases, also, a retirement pension is paid jointly to husband and wife, without the existence of a scheme and without the existence of any form of arrangement. Finally, it should be noted that the wording of the proposed Amendment follows closely the wording used in Section 37 (2) of the Coal Industry (Nationalisation) Act, 1946. I trust that I have put the rather complicated point in a way in which the Minister understands it. I am sure that the noble Lord understands it better than I do, and I beg to move the Amendment, in the hope that the Government will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 40, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
LORD LLOYD: I should like briefly to support this Amendment. Indeed, I cannot believe that there can be much between us and the Government on this point. They have already shown evidence of their good intentions by their Amendment on the Interpretation Clause. I would hazard a guess that this is merely
764
an oversight on the part of the draftsmen, and I think that all we are trying to do is to make this matter water-tight. I have great hopes that the noble Lord will be able to meet us.
LORD MORRISON: As the noble Lord has indicated, this is a rather complicated matter. He has given a brief account of its past history, and I think the best thing I can do is briefly to recount that history from the angle from which the Government see it. If I do so, I think both noble Lords will be satisfied that the point has now been met. This Amendment, as I think the noble Lord indicated, together with certain consequential Amendments, was discussed in another place. In another place the purpose was stated to be to ensure that the employees who receive, or are likely to receive, pensions by virtue of customary practice, as distinct from some formal pension scheme, are not prejudiced by this clause. After argument in another place, the Minister offered to insert in the definition of "pension scheme" words which would make it clear that the definition included a scheme subsisting by virtue of customary practice. The Opposition in another place were not wholly satisfied—which is not unusual for them —but they withdrew their Amendment in the expectation of being able to discuss the Minister's proposed Amendment when the Interpretation Clause was reached. As it happened, the Minister's Amendment—the insertion of the words "customary practice," which now appear at the end of line 33, on page 59—came under the guillotine, and no opportunity for discussion arose and there was no Division.
The same block of Amendments to Clause 40 were put down in another place on the Report stage, but were again guillotined. The main Amendment now appears in your Lordships' Committee, but without the consequential Amendments. This leads me to think (I may be over-optimistic in thinking so) that the Opposition are now seeking an assurance from the Government that the clause does in fact safeguard pensions obtaining by customary practice. That assurance I can definitely give. The difference between this Bill and the other Nationalisation Acts is that this Bill does not effect any change of employer. Persons employed by the companies which

765
come into public ownership under the Bill will remain in the employ of these companies, and accordingly, except in so far as they are replaced by regulations made under this clause, pension arrangements will continue to remain in force under this Bill. Wherever such arrangements are replaced, subsection (2) secures that persons having pension rights under the old pension scheme will not be placed in a worse position.
If noble Lords will now turn to Clause 58, on page 59, they will find the definition which the noble Lord has quoted. It says:
"'pension rights' includes, in relation to any person, all forms of right to or eligibility for the present or future payment of a pension to or in respect of that person, and any expectation of the accruer of a pension to or in respect of that person under any customary practice and includes a right of allocation in respect of the present or future payment of a pension;
The clause goes on:
'pension scheme' includes any form of arrangements for the payment of pensions, whether subsisting by virtue of an Act, trust, contract, customary practice or otherwise."
I hope that I have convinced noble Lords that the purpose of their Amendment has been met.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Your Lordships will remember that when we were discussing the Coal Industry Bill we had a long discussion on this point, not because we differed much in what we wanted to do, but because of the extreme difficulty of finding the right words in which to do it. On that occasion, we had the advantage of the assistance of the Lord Chancellor. We finally settled a form of words which covered both the difficult problems of making sure that everybody who had any right or expectation was covered, and also the even more difficult problem of how expectation was to be assessed. When we come to assessing an expectation of accruer—which I agree has to be done under regulations; indeed, the whole of this assumes regulations and is directed to what the regulations shall contain—I would like an assurance, which I am sure will be forthcoming.
What I would like is an assurance that what we settled about coal with regard to the difficult question of how "reasonable expectation" is to be interpreted will
766
apply here, because we want the same principles to apply in all these cases. I am speaking for myself here, because these provisions are extraordinarily difficult to follow, not because they are badly drafted but because this is a very complex subject. I think the Bill covers anything in the nature of a scheme or an arrangement. But is the noble Lord completely satisfied that it covers the case where an individual would be entitled to something because of the customary practice of the particular firm in which he is engaged? I know he has read out to me the passage on page 59:
"'pension scheme' includes any form of arrangements for the payment of pensions, whether subsisting by virtue of an Act, trust, contract, customary practice or otherwise."
If the words, "customary practice" stood alone, I should imagine that they would cover the case governed by the practice of the individual firm. But would not the words "customary practice" in the definition of "pension scheme" be governed by the earlier words
"any form of arrangements for the payment of—"?
That, I think, is the difficulty, and it has been suggested to us that that requires words to cover something which is not a "form of arrangements": that "form of arrangements" presupposes a formal scheme of sonic kind, whereas a number of these advantages are, as the noble Lord knows, not a mutter of right but a matter of expectation under custom. Indeed, this cannot be made the subject of a hard and fast scheme, because the whole thing depends upon the continued existence of the company and on how the man behaves himself. "Expectation" means, in effect, that if I have behaved myself, and have lived, and things have gone well, then I should get something. But that is something so conditional that it cannot be put into a cut-and-dried scheme, although it is something which we have admitted in all these Acts as a very real thing, because by custom the good company treats its employees in that way. It is people of that sort we want to safeguard here, because they have been in the very best employment—and the best employers generally get the best workmen. I should be glad if the noble Lord could inform me whether the individual case, the discretionary case, is covered, or whether it has to find itself placed in a "form of arrangements."
LORD MORRISON: I agree that this is a complicated matter, and I can only say that I have had an opportunity of consulting the best legal advisers avail-able, who assure me that the words "any form of arrangements" are as wide as they can be. The word "arrangements" is always used to cover an informal as well as a formal scheme; it means something arranged.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It is the word "scheme" that worries me a little because it is not quite a scheme; it is a personal arrangement subsisting conditionally between a company and an individual employee. A very good company has been in the habit of treating its people very decently, but you cannot call that a scheme; it is a way of life, a habit of behaviour. That is why the words "customary practice," with which I have no quarrel, have been used. Nevertheless, I find it hard to see how treatment of this sort can be put into a "form of arrangements."
THE MARQUESS OF READING: Perhaps I may be allowed to make a suggestion which may be helpful. It is that some words as these should be used:
"'pension scheme' includes any arrangement, express or implied, for the payment of pensions."
LORD MORRISON: The difference between us is very small and, speaking for myself—I am not qualified to speak from the legal point of view, though I am assured on the matter by the best legal advisers that the Government have available—I am satisfied that the clause in fact safeguards pensions given by customary practice. However, the noble Marquess has made an alternative suggestion which I will have examined, if that will meet the views of the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton. If these words are found to be better than the words of the existing clause, and if they will result in securing more certainly what the Government believe is provided by the clause as it stands now, we will certainly consider it and the matter can go further.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: No words have fallen from the lips of the noble Lord that in any way make us think that we do not share a completely commonpurpose—the purpose of safeguarding both formal and informal arrange-
768
ments. We have only to make sure which method of execution is the better. No doubt the Government will in due course let us hear the result of their deliberations on the suggestion made by the noble Marquess. Meanwhile I thank the noble Lord for his kindly reception of my Amendment, which I now beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 40 agreed to.
Clause 41:
Compensation to officers in connection with transfers
41.—(1) The Minister shall by regulations require the payment either by the Corporation or the company, in such cases and to such extent as may be specified in the regulations, of compensation to officers of any company which comes into public ownership under Part II of this Act, being officers who suffer loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights in consequence of the company becoming a publicly-owned company.
(3) Regulations made under this section—
(b) may in particular contain provisions enabling appeals from any determination as to whether any or what compensation is payable to be brought, in such cases and subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by the regulations, before a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service, after consultation with the Lord Chancellor or, where the proceedings are to be held in Scotland, after consultation with the Secretary of State,
and where any such provision is made as is specified in paragraph (b) of this subsection, the decision of the referee or board of referees shall be final.
3.38 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, in subsection (1) to omit "and to such extent." The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to delete the provision that regulations made under this clause shall specify to what extent compensation is to be paid to officers for loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights. As the noble Lord said on the last Amendment, these are very important clauses. I remember that on the Second Reading of this Bill, the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, used these words:
"There are two clauses in this Bill, Clauses 40 and 41, which are very important and which have not been discussed in another place, and to which I hope your Lordships will do full justice."

769
That is what we are trying to do this afternoon. As the Bill is now drawn, it is left to the Minister to determine by way of regulation the limits of compensation payable, and we feel that that in itself is an injustice which might lead to considerable hardship. It has already happened in the case of officers employed by the railways before nationalisation. The Transferred Undertakings (Compensation for Employees) Regulations, 1948, in defining the net emoluments for purposes of compensation, laid down that any amount by which the emoluments exceed £4,000 per annum shall he disregarded. We feel that it is very unjust that an official earning say, £6,000 or £10,000 a year, or whatever he may be thought worth, should have the excess of his salary over £4,000 disregarded in assessing compensation for loss or diminution of pay. A commercial company does not pay high salaries to its officers unless those officers are worth it.
It seems to me that the Government may have difficulty in resisting the principle behind this Amendment, when in another place it has refused an Amendment in Committee to limit the salaries of members of the Corporation to £5,000 a year. On that occasion the Minister said:
"I suggest that the Amendment ought to he rejected and the Minister allowed freedom to pay what salary appears appropriate for the job and for the man involved."
That is the "rate for the job" principle. We cannot see why it should not apply to compensation for loss of the job. It is inconsistent that the Minister should have power to restrict the amount of compensation payable to the officers who suffer loss due to the enactment of this Bill. I hope the Government will look sympathetically at this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 6, leave out ("and to such extent").—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
LORD LLOYD: I should like to support this Amendment because I think it is in the interests of elementary justice that an Amendment of this kind should be put into the Bill. The Amendment does not seem to me to impose very great difficulties upon the Government. It is not as if we were asking for all claims put forward to be admitted. A man has to prove his case first but, he having proved his case, it seems unreasonable that the
770
Government should, by an arbitrary decision of their own, be able to decide upon how much of his salary they consider he should be paid compensation. I cannot see that there is any justice in such an arrangement. I am sure the Government would not wish unnecessarily to cause injustice to people who deserve very well of this most important industry. I therefore hope that the noble Viscount will accept this Amendment.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): This is one of a series of Amendments similar to those which were put down on previous nationalisation Bills. I am afraid that I cannot accept the Amendment for this reason: that Clause 41 is for the purpose of making the regulations. If we leave out these words, as suggested in the Amendment, it will not prevent the fixing of a maximum in the regulations. I think it would be much better, if any exception is to be taken to anything in the regulations, to raise that matter when the regulations, which will have to appear not only in your Lordships' House but also in another place, are presented. They will deal not only with cases such as that which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, but also with other cases. I think it very much better that we should allow discussion in relation to the regulations to take place when the regulations are presented.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: think the noble Viscount probably wins, on balance of argument. That being the case, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.44 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
"( ) An officer shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to have suffered loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights in consequence of a company becoming a publicly-owned company if at any time within five years after the date of transfer—

(a) such officer relinquishes his employment or appointment un the ground that he has been required to perform duties which are not reasonably comparable to or are an unreasonable addition to those which he was required to perform immediately before the date of transfer in accordance with the normal requirements of the company;

771

(b) the employment or appointment of such officer is terminated only on the ground that the services which he performed or might reasonably have been expected to perform immediately before the date of transfer are no longer required of him;

(c) the emoluments of such officer are reduced on the ground that the duties performed by him immediately before the date of transfer in accordance with the normal requirements of the company have been diminished."

The noble Lord said: The purpose of the Amendment that I now move is to ensure that an officer or a whole-time director who resigns from the employ of a publicly-owned company because he is given unreasonable duties, or alternatively who is dismissed on the ground of redundancy, or has his pay reduced because his duties are less than before the vesting date, shall be able to claim compensation. As at present drawn, the clause grants the right to compensation only in cases of actual
"loss of employment or loss or diminution or emoluments or pension rights."
I think that on consideration your Lordships will agree that these are not the only ways in which the passing of a company into public ownership may operate to the disadvantage of its officers. May I give two or three examples of the way in which a man could suffer adversely? Heavy additional duties might be made upon an officer with no corresponding increase in his emoluments; or he might be required to carry out duties totally different from those for which he originally joined the company. Again, an officer's services may be dispensed with, not at the time the company passes into public ownership nor even as a direct result of that passing, but some years later, as a result of a scheme of reorganisation forced upon the company as an indirect consequence of the passing into public ownership. Or, lastly, a company may reduce the emoluments of an officer, again possibly some years after the company has passed into public ownership, because, though not actually redundant, he is required through reorganisation to perform less important duties.
In all those cases, we feel that officers should be able to claim compensation under this clause, and the Amendment seeks to make that possible. In relation to the Amendment we have inserted a period of five years as a reasonable period
772
within which the companies should be able to settle down under the new régime and any scheme of reorganisation resulting from nationalisation should be completed. A clause on somewhat similar lines was included in the London Passenger Transport Act. A similar clause was moved in Standing Committee on the Electricity Bill, but was withdrawn because the Minister of Fuel and Power gave an undertaking that his regulations would make provision for such cases, which substantially they did. We would prefer to have it in the Bill, if it is possible. However, if the noble Viscount tells me that the Minister will look after this position in the regulations, I will accept that as a second best. But I still hope for the full best. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 11, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
VISCOUNT HALL: I do not want to take up too much of your Lordships' time, because I feel that both before and after the regulations are drafted there is a considerable amount of work to be done. It has been promised in another place that consultations will take place, not only with representatives of the trade unions but with representatives of other groups as well. The definition of "officer" given in Clause 58 includes everyone from managing-director down to almost the office boy. I feel it would be very much better to allow discussions to take place between the Corporation and the companies—because they will have to take place with the companies—so that they can get the best type of regulation suitable to the iron and steel industry. I would point out to your Lordships that there will be much greater difficulty in arriving at suitable regulations for this industry when it becomes nationalised than there were for either the gas or electricity industries. A certain amount of statutory right existed in the electricity and gas industries. In this case, however, a number of companies are being brought in, and that may well mean that a different type of regulation will have to be framed in relation to this industry from those of other industries.
The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, moved a similar Amendment to the Gas Bill, and at that time my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor

773
said that, so far as he was concerned he wanted as sympathetic an approach as we could possibly have in relation to what it was intended that the clause and the regulations should cover. I entirely agree with that. At the same time some regard must be paid to consumers' rights; indeed, if I were an employer—which I am not—some regard would have to be paid to analogous or similar industries which have not been taken over in relation to matters of this kind. But these are matters with which the industry itself (for, as the noble Earl, Lord Dudley, said, it has the appropriate wages structure) should deal. It is much better that the old British habit of negotiation first and regulations afterwards Should apply in this case, and that I think will be much more beneficial than to insert this provision into the Statute.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I accept all the noble Viscount says. He makes a point about the difficulty there will he in having regulations for this industry, as compared with other nationalised industries. But the noble Viscount has not given us any words at all as to his views on the general proposition I put forward—that for a period of, as we say, five years a man should be protected from ill-effects on his personal career due to changes arising from nationalisation. The noble Viscount said he relied upon what he called the British way of negotiation. What I would like to know is whether the Minister is averse or otherwise to meeting sympathetically cases such as I have put forward; and whether, for a period of time ahead (perhaps not the exact time that I have stated, but for some very considerable period), he would he prepared to meet sympathetically cases such as those that I have put forward and others. If this is the spirit in which negotiations in regard to regulations are conducted, then I think there is probably nothing much between us.
VISCOUNT HALL: So far as dealing with cases which might or might not arise three, four or five years ahead, or indeed cases which might arise before the regulations are brought in, I may say that the regulations will be retrospective to the time when the industry is taken over, if such should be the case. The regulations will govern the industry during the period they are in operation, which will be for some time. I do not think the noble Lord
774
need have any apprehension in regard to that matter. If there is any concern about it, I am sure that those who are responsible for negotiating on the side of those who are to be protected will see that they are protected in that way.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: The noble Viscount quoted me as having referred to the "good conduct" story in the past of the industry in all these matters. But I was referring to what has happened so far, not to what will happen if this industry passes into public ownership. Indeed, I have seen similar cases occurring in other nationalised industries—particularly the railways—where an officer's Whole life and his whole job are completely revolutionised by this act of nationalisation and change in organisation and, also, by the necessity, under nationalisation, of measuring him to a large extent by the Government yardstick and by the fear on the part of the Government and the Department of doing anything which may cause a precedent which will create embarrassment in future cases. In the steel industry so far there is naturally a great deal more elasticity in that respect. We do not judge individual cases by a yardstick; we judge individual cases on their own merits; and we are not so frightened as the Government are bound to be, of creating a precedent by giving special treatment to an individual.
All these questions and difficulties are bound to arise in a reorganisation of this kind, when these companies are subjected to regulations framed by the Government and given instructions issued by the Minister and the Corporation. All sorts of things may happen to these officers. Fresh work may be put upon their shoulders; through no fault of their own, they may be put into an entirely different position and on to a lower level, merely because it so happens that that is the way it fits into the Government organisation. I think that for this period of five years, they should know better where they stand, and how they will be compensated in cases of suffering. I hope that the Minister will give further consideration to this matter between now and the next stage of the Bill.
LORD LLOYD: I would like to support what my noble friend Lord Dudley has said. I listened carefully to what the

775
Minister said, and I tried to put myself into the shoes of one of these people who might be displaced, and I did not gain much consolation from what the noble Viscount said. My noble friend mentioned a number of possible things which could occur to one of these employees of the Corporation, and the noble Viscount, with the dexterity of which he is a master, did not make any commitment or say that he would accept the probability of any one of them. My noble friends and I are not entirely happy about this matter, and I do not believe any of the people in this industry will feel very happy about it. I wonder whether the noble Viscount could go further to meet us on this point?
VISCOUNT HALL: I wish I could, but the position is that they will be governed by the regulations. I cannot anticipate what will be inserted in the regulations. It may be that the noble Earl, Lord Dudley, will be one of those who will negotiate on behalf of the persons to whom he has referred.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: No, I shall not.
VISCOUNT HALL: Well, it is to be hoped that he will. If he is interested, as I know he is, in the future of a number of these people who have served him well perhaps he will take part in the negotiations. I do not want the Committee to think that I am in any way controversial about this. There will be given to this industry, by regulations, statutory rights which have never before existed in the industry. It is true that a number of persons might have grievances over a period of five years, but they would be very few in proportion. I am not suggesting for a moment that they ought not to be protected. They should be protected, and I have no doubt there will be someone representing those persons who will see that protection is given them. It may be that the companies themselves will help in this way. After all, this case is entirely different from Gas and Electricity. We are hoping that the companies will remain in existence and that there will not be any such changes as the noble Earl, Lord Dudley, rather fears. We are hoping that there will be stability in this industry, not only for a period of five years but for very much longer.
776
Again I would ask the Committee to leave this matter to be negotiated as I have suggested.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: We are not completely satisfied. The only feeling of satisfaction we shall really enjoy will be when the regulations are finally issued, if they contain all that we feel they rightly should. With the hope that that may be the case, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.0 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, in subsection (3) (b) to omit the first "may" and insert "shall." The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to oblige the Minister to include in his regulations as to compensation provisions for a right of appeal in cases of dispute about the amount or the terms of compensation under the clause. We feel we should not leave to the Minister the discretion to grant this right or not as he thinks fit; the right of appeal should be open to the aggrieved person as a matter of course, and not at the discretion of the Minister. The second part of Clause 40 (3) provides that:
"Any dispute arising as to whether or not the said result has been secured by any regulations made under this section shall"—
I emphasise the word "shall"—
"be referred to a referee or board of referees…"
It seems to us that there is no good reason why disputes about compensation terms should be treated any differently. That being the purpose of the Amendment, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 28, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
VISCOUNT HALL: The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, moved a similar Amendment to the Gas Bill, and he was briefly replied to by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor. In order to shorten the proceedings, I think I cannot do better than quote what the noble and learned Viscount then stated. He said:
"I must object to the noble Lord's Amendment on grounds of drafting. It is inappropriate to use the word 'shall' when you follow it with the words 'in such cases and subject to such conditions,' because you can-

777
not say that anyone must do a thing if you go on to say that you wish to specify the conditions under which he does it. That would be wrong. This is a revolutionary proposal and I am astounded that such a proposal should come from so respectable member of our society. I regret I cannot accept the Amendment."
The noble Lord at once replied:
"I admit defeat and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment."
I do not want the noble Lord to admit defeat now, but I would ask him to withdraw this Amendment.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am not at all sure that we were not "taken in" by the Lord Chancellor last time. I was present, but his eloquence overcame me. I thought then that he was right, but now I am not at all sure that he was not entirely wrong. Look at what it says in the Bill. It says that regulations made under this clause:
"shall prescribe the procedure to be followed in making claims for compensation, and the manner in which and the person by whom the question whether any or what compensation is payable is to he determined."
There is a great deal of discretion in that. The procedure is to be prescribed and the manner in which and the person by whom the question whether any or what compensation is to be payable is to be determined. I do not think there could be a much wider discretion than is set out there. Subsection 3 (a) contains the word "shall." Then paragraph (b) states:
"may in particular contain provisions enabling appeals from any determination as to whether any or what compensation is payable to be brought, in such cases and subject to such conditions as may he prescribed by the regulations."
It is quite true that the regulations must prescribe the way in which the appeal is to be brought and, no doubt, the cases in which an appeal may be brought. But you get that in the ordinary right of appeal in the courts. There are Rules of Court which lay down exactly how and in what circumstances an appeal is to lie. That does not deprive the litigant of his right of appeal.
What I would like to know—though perhaps the noble Viscount cannot very well answer this as the Lord Chancellor is not present—is this. The Lord Chancellor's argument was that if you alter "may" into "shell" it means that the Minister has no discretion in framing the regulations. But supposing the word
778
"may" is there instead of the word. "shall," would not the Lord Chancellor, or whoever makes the regulation, be entitled to say: "It is may,' not and I propose that there shall be no appeal in any case." I am sure that that is not what is meant. I sure that what is intended is that whatever the regulation provides for, there shall be an appeal. The Lord Chancellor objected to the word "shall" only because he thought it would deprive whoever made the regulations of the right to say what were to be the cases and conditions under which an appeal was to be brought. My difficulty is that if "may" is retained instead of "shall," the Minister—I think it is the Minister and not the Lord Chancellor—would then have complete discretion as to whether there should be an appeal or not. The Minister might say: "In spite of the word 'may' occuring here I propose to exercise my discretion so that there shall not be an appeal." It is not that he wishes to do that. But I am not at all sure that it is just as the Lord Chancellor says.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I rather hope I was not in the House when the Lord Chancellor made the remarks which have just been quoted by the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, and that had I been here I should have taken some exception to them, though that might have been an unduly audacious course. I am very puzzled at the objection to this Amendment. Let us look at how the clause would read if the Amendment were made. It would read:
"Shall in particular contain provisions…"
What provisions?
"provisions enabling appeals from any determination…"
That is what is wanted—that there shall be provision for the making of appeals and that those appeals shall be:
"as to whether any or what compensation is payable…in such cases, subject to such conditions—"
not something which is entirely at the discretion of the Minister in relation to each particular case, but subject to such conditions as shall be laid down by the-Minister actual regulations. It does not seem to me to be in any way fettering that discretion to say at the beginning of the clause that there shall be an appeal but it shall be only in such conditions as the Minister, by other regulations,

779
may hold applicable in particular cases. I cannot, for the moment, grasp the argument that by putting in the mandatory instead of the permissive word we are thereby doing anything to interfere with the discretion which is in the Minister to prescribe by regulations how a particular appeal shall be conducted.
VISCOUNT HALL: I thought my case was cast iron. I quoted the Lord Chancellor, and far be it from me to say that the Lord Chancellor's advice was not in accordance with the law. Nor will I go so far as to say that the view of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, was contrary to the law. If the noble Lord will be so good as to withdraw this Amendment, I will certainly consult with the Lord Chancellor about this matter with a view to seeing if it can be cleared up.
LORD BALFOUR or INCHRYE: I, too, remember the Lord Chancellor's sudden onslaught on myself, which took us all by surprise. We felt that such learned advice must, of course, be correct, and it was only on subsequent reflection that we began to doubt if it was quite so infallible after all. I am only sorry that the Lord Chancellor is not with us now, but I suppose he has other duties to perform. I am grateful to the noble Viscount for saying that he will consult with the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, and on that understanding I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved to add to the clause:
"( ) Regulations shall be made under this section not later than six months after the date upon which this Act comes into force."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that regulations regarding compensation for loss of employment are not unduly delayed. As at present drafted, the Bill lays down no time limit within which regulations must be made under Clause 41. It is likely that immediately after the vesting date the Minister will be preoccupied by many important matters, and it may well be that regulations will be relegated to a secondary place. We have to think of the individual men and women who would be affected by the delay in the issue of regulations, and of the uncertainty that
780
will exist in their lives and the difficulty they will have in carrying on, not knowing what their future position is going to be. It is to avoid that hardship that we propose six months as a reasonable interval between the date of the Act's coming into force and the making of regulations. It is worth reminding your Lordships that in the case of the Electricity Act, 1947, for which there are similar regulations, although the Act received Royal Assent in August, 1947, and the vesting date was April 1, 1948, regulations were not approved by Parliament until March, 1949—an interval of almost a year. I recall, in case the noble Lord reminds me, that I moved a rather similar Amendment on another nationalisation Bill, and the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor replied that if we put a time limit on regulations, that might mean that we would have unsatisfactory regulations rushed through. The noble and learned Viscount said that he would prefer good regulations at a longer date ahead than bad regulations in a short time. We do not say that we want bad regulations; we want good regulations in a reasonable time, because of the hardship and difficulty to those affected due to their prolonged uncertainty.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 43, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Inclzrye.)
LORD LLOYD: I should like to support this Amendment, which your Lordships who have taken part in other nationalisation Bills will recognise as an old friend. It is an old friend of mine, because on the Electricity Regulations I had occasion to ask a question on this particular point after the Bill had been passed. At that time I was told that it was difficult for the Government to get on with the regulations, because of the number of associations they had to consult and the shortage of draftsmen. Now that the Government have temporarily stopped nationalising industries—until the next Election!—there will be far more draftsmen and, by the same token, if the Government get down to making regulations, I do not think we need necessarily have bad regulations because of the imposition of a time limit. I think it is quite possible to do this in six months, and it is of the greatest importance to the people in this industry that the regulations should appear at the earliest pos-

781
sible moment. Although this is an old "chestnut," I hope the noble Viscount will be prepared to accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT HALL: I am afraid I can do no more than give an assurance that the regulations will be made as soon as possible. These regulations will have to be drafted in circumstances in which officers of 200 privately-owned companies may suffer loss of employment or loss of emolument as a result of nationalisation; and it will take some time for the Government, in conjunction with the Corporation, to find out what conditions will have to be taken into account in drafting these regulations. I very much doubt whether the information could be obtained before the companies had been transferred, which would be some months after the passing of the Act. In some cases transfer may be postponed beyond the general date of transfer. I think it would be unreasonable to put on the Corporation the task of working against a time limit, as is suggested in the Amendment. The Corporation and the companies will be heavily engaged with important matters, and the draft regulations will have to be discussed not only with trade unions but with other representative bodies. To obtain the necessary details and arrange this matter will probably mean a period very much longer than the six months suggested.
I dislike delay very much. I know that uncertainty causes a great deal of anxiety. In the whole of my period in industry the one thing which, more than anything else, led to discontent was delay in coming to a decision. But I do not think that a period beyond six months could be regarded as unreasonable in relation to the framing of regulations, because at the present time there is nothing in the industry to go on, and it will mean a completely new set of regulations. I doubt very much whether the regulations of other nationalised industries could be taken as a model, in view of the fact that so many separate companies will be brought into this scheme. For these reasons I ask the noble Lord not to press this Amendment. Noble Lords can be assured that all the pressure which can be brought to bear will be brought to hear, both on the Minister and on the Corporation, to see that when this Act is implemented the regulations will be brought in with every possible speed.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I should like to ask the noble Viscount a question. Three or four of the Amendments which we have moved were refused on the grounds that they would be dealt with in the regulations. This Amendment tries to deal with the dislocations which will happen to various officers under this reorganisation. What is to happen to these officers who lose their emoluments, either through redundancy or through having to take different work at lower pay, in the period between the taking over by the Corporation of the companies under the Second Sehedule and the issuing of regulations? This period may be a year. Who is to pay the difference in their emoluments? Some of these officers may get nothing at all, and they will be waiting for the regulations to be framed and passed before they can get justice. I think the noble Viscount should answer that.
VISCOUNT HALL: I will answer the noble Earl by asking him how we are to know that these things will happen. He is talking in purely hypothetical terms. Nothing is more likely to lead to uncertainty and anxiety than the kind of speech made by the noble Earl. The Government are most anxious that existing conditions in this industry should continue for some time. There will be no interference with the directors, the managers or the technical staff. We do not anticipate that the changes to which the noble Earl referred are likely to take place—indeed, I will go so far as to say that we are very anxious that they should not take place.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, has said something which has greatly relieved me. I am quite certain that my noble friend Lord Dudley did not mean to create uncertainty. I was anxious in my own mind as to what would happen to a man who was reduced or dismissed before the regulations were mad. I entirely agree with the Minister, in that I do not think he could possibly give an undertaking to have these regulations ready within six months of the Act's coining into force. I think they will be the most complicated regulations that have ever been drafted. I am sure that when they come up for debate here and in another place all sorts of points will crop up that have never been thought of. In

783
fact, they will probably have to be laid in draft as a White Paper, in order that there may be a full debate in both Houses so that points which have been overlooked can be taken back, in order to avoid the trouble of praying against a regulation because three or four things are wrong with it and the whole thing going by the board.
What is a perfectly genuine case is that when the Act comes into force (if it does), the Corporation will be set up and, presumably, will immediately get busy on regulations. I suppose plans will go forward: there will be discussions between the Corporation and the bodies which are to vest in it—discussions as to reorganisation and so on. It may well be that, although the companies have not vested, certain arrangements will be made about which the Corporation will be able to give directions as soon as the undertakings vest. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, and the Minister have talked about the economies which are to be effected. Effecting economies generally means reducing staff. We all agree that these people should be properly treated. I am assuming that the regulations will be all we want them to be when they come into being. What I want to know is, if people are dismissed or reduced before the regulations come into effect what power will the Corporation have to make payments? I am not sure whether the payment of compensation is to be an obligation on the Corporation or an obligation on each individual company; I think it is the Corporation.
VISCOUNT HALL: The Corporation or the company.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It may be one or the other. Assuming that it is the company, would a company which is not yet vested but which has agreed to do something have the power to say to a man: "I will pay you something when I get rid of you"? I should have thought that was exactly the sort of contract about which we felt a difficulty last time; that was why we were so anxious to get a clause which said: "Go on doing your day-to-day business with full discretion until the regulations come into force." I am not sure what legal authority either the individual companies or the Corporation would have to make a man an ex gratia payment or a payment on account.
784
Yet he should be paid. Possibly the noble Viscount intended to say—this was rather what his speech implied—that nobody would be dismissed as redundant from any of the companies until the regulations were published. I know that it is difficult in these discussions to guard oneself completely; I am sure that from time to time I say things which are wrong. But did the noble Viscount mean that there will be no dismissals and no depreciation in an employee's position until the regulations are out? If that is not so, will the companies or the Corporation have the right to pay a man something reasonable on account until the regulations are published which lay down what is to be paid?
VISCOUNT HALL: It would be impossible for me to give any guarantee on that, but I should assume that any wise Corporation—and we hope that this Corporation, when it functions, will be a wise one—will interfere as little as possible, at any rate for some time. But let us assume that there are difficulties such as those which have been mentioned. I have no doubt that the directors, or indeed the general managers, of companies of this kind have a fixed agreement; quite a number of them have an agreement for a period, whether it is a five-year agreement or a ten-year agreement. If the men have no agreement, then their condition is not much worse than it is at present, for they can now be dismissed—I am not suggesting that they are dismissed. Obviously, there are a number of very old officials in the iron and steel industry, as there are in most other industries. I have no doubt that the Corporation will want to foster the friendliest relations with the staffs, from the directors down to the office boys. Let us assume that there are reductions in status and in emoluments; and even that certain persons are dismissed. There is then nothing to prevent the company from making a reasonable payment on account in cases of that kind. I think that will go some way to meet the situation. I know that it is the intention of the Government that, until the Corporation gets into full swing and until they can see that co-ordination is necessary, in the interests of the industry, the industry will continue largely as it is at present.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, has made a

785
very important explanatory statement in saying that the companies have power, in cases like those cited by my noble friend Lord Swinton, to make payment on account. That reassures us to a considerable degree. I agree with what was said by my noble friend that it is not unreasonable that a period beyond six months should be expected. This Amendment suggested six months in order that we might clarify the situation. I sincerely hope that the Minister's intentions will be fulfilled by the regulations being issued at the earliest possible time. If any uncertainty was caused, with great respect to the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, it was caused in his first speech, when he was, as it were, excusing the time that will be taken. The noble Viscount told us, "The Corporation will be concerned with very important matters." Of course they will. But in my view, there are few matters more important than human relationships in industry. I hope that the personnel question will be ranked amongst those very important matters which will have the earliest consideration. However, with the assurance which the noble Viscount has given in regard to the rights of the companies to make payments on account, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 41 agreed to.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43:
Establishment of Iron and Steel Arbitration Tribunal
(7) The arbitration tribunal may, at any stage in any proceedings before them, refer to a person or persons appointed by them for the purpose, any question arising in the proceedings, for inquiry and report, and the report of any such person or persons may be adopted wholly or partly by the tribunal and, if so adopted, may be incorporated in an order of the tribunal.
4.30 p.m.
LORD CLYDESMUIR LORD CLYDESMUIR moved to omit subsection (7). The noble Lord said: In case your Lordships should fear that by moving to leave out an important subsection of the Bill I am going to interrupt the atmosphere of sweet reasonableness which has descended upon the Committee, I would like to explain at once that my Amendment is of an exploratory character. We are dealing with the arbitration tribunal, and I hope to elicit from noble
786
Lords opposite some information about what is intended by the powers of delegation which are given to this tribunal. I want to obtain from the Government a statement as to the class of matter which it is intended shall be delegated under this subsection and, secondly, I should like from them a confirmation of the assurance given in another place by the Solicitor-General for Scotland or, behalf of the Government, that the parties to arbitration will, in fact, be given an opportunity of considering a report made by a person to whom the tribunal delegates matters in the terms of the clause.
This subsection empowers the arbitration tribunal to refer any question for inquiry and report to a person selected by them, and I find it difficult to understand why it is really necessary that the tribunal should have such wide powers. After all, this is an important tribunal, and—if the scheme is to go forward—we approve of its appointment. It is to consist of an experienced lawyer, an experienced business man and an experienced financier—a very powerful triple combination. Now parties to arbitration will no doubt call expert witnesses on difficult technical questions, and it seems that the tribunal should be able to decide questions on the evidence laid before them, however technical. I cannot see why it should require to refer questions to other experts, except in rare cases where an accurate ascertainment of facts is necessary. I feel that in some mixed questions of law and fact, and of course in questions of law, it would be very unfortunate if the tribunal had to delegate powers. Surely this is precisely the purpose for which the judgment of these three men is required. My reason for moving this Amendment is to obtain from noble Lords opposite some indication of what is in the mind of the Government by delegating such wide powers "any question" are the words used.
I turn now to the assurance given by the Solicitor-General for Scotland—and I take some comfort from the fact that it was that gentleman, a lawyer of repute, who gave the assurance. The actual terms of the assurance given in the House of Commons Standing Committee were as follows:
"…what is contemplated here is that very much the same procedure will take place as takes place before an official referee. The parties will have a note of the matters sub-

787
mitted to the person by the arbitration tribunal; they will have an opportunity to be heard before the person to whom the remit has been made; and they will be told the decision of the person to whom the remit has been made."
That is as far as the Solicitor-General was able to go. I hope the noble Lord opposite will be able to satisfy me on this point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 36, leave out subsection (7).—(Lord Clydesmuir.)
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I beg to support the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Clydesmuir. This subsection, as it stands at present, is very vague and unsatisfactory, and we should have more information with regard to it. Subsection (4) of Clause 44, which refers to the procedure and the rules which will be made by the tribunal and which will receive the approval of the Lord Chancellor, is also very vague. We would like to hear something of what is envisaged in regard to that matter and when these rules are likely to be published.
I agree with the noble Lord who moved this Amendment that it does not seem necessary that there should be any delegation at all by the tribunal, except in very rare cases where technical details of fact have to be ascertained; and in no case should the tribunal divest themselves of their responsibility for exercising their powers of discretion and judgment. If they are going to delegate all their powers widely, as they can do under this subsection, to all sorts of extraneous persons to do their job for them, then there is no object in appointing the tribunal at all, and the whole thing becomes extremely unsatisfactory. Mixed questions of law and fact, and all questions of law, should be decided by the tribunal, and by the tribunal alone.
Reference has already been made to High Court referees, but delegations there are made according to very clearly defined rules and proceedings. We want to know whether the rules and proceedings which will regulate this tribunal will be equally clear and equally binding. For example, one rule of the Supreme Court says:
"There shall be a right of appeal from any finding, decision, order or direction, and from any judgment entered or signed by leave, order or direction of a special referee in any
788
action, cause or matter or question or issue referred to him for trial or decision."
Rule 2 of that order says:
"In the case of a finding, decision, order direction or judgment arrived at, made, given, directed or entered on the trial or hearing of any action, cause or matter or question or issue or of any assessment or award of damages the appeal shall lie in the Chancery Division to the judge in court; in the King's Bench Division to a divisional court; and in the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division, to a divisional court of that division."
The laying down of rules of that kind makes the matter quite clear, and we want to know whether there will be the same rules in this case. Of course, the official and special referees to whom the High Court refer matters are, as the noble Lord has just said, people with very high qualifications. We have no assurance that the referees to whom actions may be referred by this tribunal will be persons of high qualifications. We do not know who they are going to be.
Then what about the right to appeal? The tribunal can accept in part or in toto any of the recommendations made by the referees, and the Solicitor-General for Scotland in another place told us that the parties will be informed who the referees are and will be given a chance of being heard by them. As I understand it, there is only the right of appeal from the decision of the tribunal under certain clauses. As the Bill is drafted at present, I do not think the rights of appeal are wide enough. I hope that the noble Lord who replies will give us some explanation in regard to that matter. As the noble Lord has said, this is an exploratory Amendment; we want to hear as fully as possible what the duties are to be.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I felt sure that the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, was not going to disturb the equanimity with which the proceedings have gone so far. I think I can give him assurances on all the points on which he wants them. As the noble Lord has rightly said, the arbitration tribunal is set up, in the words of subsection (1) of Clause 43:
"For the purpose of determining any question or dispute which under any provision of this Act or any regulations made thereunder is expressly required to be determined by 'arbitration under this Act,'…."
One-third of the clauses and Schedules of this Bill make reference to matters which can go to arbitration. The sub-

789
section which the noble Lord wants to leave out is the one which permits that the arbitration tribunal may—it is purely permissive:
"at any stage in any proceedings before them, refer to a person or persons appointed by them for the purpose, any question arising in the proceedings, for inquiry and report, and the report of any such person or persons may be adopted wholly or partly by the tribunal and, if so adopted, may be incorporated in an order of the tribunal."
The questions which will have to go through this tribunal are as wide as the Bill itself; and although the tribunal, as is laid down here, will be composed of eminent persons appointed by the Lord Chancellor, is it right to deny them access to any external advice which they may require over all the field of activity which their inquiries will cover? There is nothing in this clause, and in fact nothing in this Bill, which makes it obligatory for the tribunal to accept any report made by the experts; and nothing in this Bill relieves the tribunal of decision. The tribunal have to take full responsibility for their decision. They may ask for expert investigation in matters in which they think fit.
The noble Lord then asked me the classes of matter which would be the field of the tribunal. I think I have answered that—as wide as this Bill. I will not read out all the classes, but I have the list here. It comprises, as I have said, about one-third of the clauses and Schedules of the Bill. The noble Lord asked me whether I would confirm that the statement made in another place by the Solicitor-General for Scotland is still the aim and object of the Government, and whether it will be incorporated in the rules made for the arbitration tribunal. I hope the noble Lord will not get into trouble for questioning what the Solicitor-General for Scotland said; I always thought that what was said as from one Scot to another was as good as Holy Writ. But if the noble Lord wants it confirmed, I can assure him that what the Solicitor-General for Scotland said in another place is quite correct. The arbitration tribunal will work, as the noble Earl, Lord Dudley, has said, under the rules made under subsection (4) of Clause 44, and will follow exactly the same pattern as the rules of the Supreme Court. They will take care of all the provisions which the noble Earl has in mind. The evidence of anyone to
790
whom the tribunal may have delegated any inquiry can be challenged. The noble Lord may rest assured that that is the procedure, and it is done for the sake of convenience. I have no doubt that we shall have the opportunity of seeing the regulations when they are made by the Lord Chancellor. With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord will think fit to withdraw his Amendment.
THE EARL of DUDLEY: Is there a right of appeal from any decision made by the tribunal?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: That is another case. Subsection (3) of Clause 44 says:
"The arbitration tribunal may, and if so ordered by the Court of Appeal shall, state in the form of a special case …"
and so on. So there is an appeal. I cannot say whether that applies to every case or only to selected cases.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: It is only selected cases.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I will ascertain the exact grounds for appeal from the arbitration tribunal to the Court of Appeal, and I will let the noble Earl know.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I am much obliged.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I appreciate what the noble Lord has said with regard to the scope of this subsection, and having had some experience of not very dissimilar tribunals in connection with another nationalised industry I should like to make one point. This is a valuable power to have in the Bill, but it ought to apply purely to questions of fact. It is undesirable that members of the tribunal should be able to run outside and get information from all and sundry on questions of law. I suggest for the noble Lord's consideration that in line 38 the wording might be
"… any question other than a question of law arising in the proceedings …"
I suggest that way rather than putting in for instance
"… any question of fact …"
because you might get some matter coming perhaps into a scientific category, which may or may not be wholly a question of fact; it may be a question of

791
opinion as between various authorities. Therefore I suggest it might be wise to put the matter in the form I have just suggested, or in this form
" … any question not being a question of law …".
and otherwise leave the field clear. The distinction in regard to questions of law is made in the references to appeals in Clause 44.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: As usual, the noble Marquess is very helpful. I venture with much diffidence into this field, which is not a layman's territory, but I think I am right in saying that the Solicitor-General for Scotland argued in another place on precisely the same point: that it was impossible always to dissociate law from fact, and that as delegation was advisable there should not be any limitation upon that particular point. It has been fully considered, and it was felt that to lay down any hard and fast rule would only handicap the tribunal.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I am a little startled, I confess. I think the noble Lord must have been taken by surprise. May I quote subsection (3) of Clause 44 a little further than did the noble Lord? It says:
"The arbitration tribunal may, and if so ordered by the Court of Appeal shall, state in the form of a special case for determination by the Court of Appeal any question of law"—
law only, the Committee will note—
"which may arise before them, and an appeal shall lie to the Court of Appeal on any question of law or fact from any determination or order of the arbitration tribunal …"
It would seem as if those who drafted the Bill thought there was no insurmountable difficulty in deciding whether or not an appeal lay on a question of law or a question of fact. If a question of law, it is admissible; if a question of fact, it is not.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I was quoting only the argument advanced by the Solicitor-General for Scotland in another place.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I appreciate that. I was only saying that I do not agree with him.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Marquess gives his opinion of the
792
Solicitor-General for Scotland, which is not quite so high as that of the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, who asked whether the Government accepted what the Solicitor-General for Scotland had said. But I will convey to the appropriate quarter the observations made by the noble Marquess and see what the legal advisers to the Government think of the point he raises.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: Rising in defence of my countryman, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, I feel that without hearing the whole of his opinion it is difficult to judge exactly.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I said, "If that was what he said."
LORD CLYDESMUIR: May I ask this question of the noble Lord? My noble friends agree with me that if I withdraw this Amendment now and the noble Lord opposite will consider what the noble Marquess has said, we will keep the matter open and put down on Report stage an Amendment incorporating the words suggested. We may then come to a decision. From the kindly attitude adopted by the noble Lord, in spite of the dispute about the exact legal phrase, I take it that he is well-disposed towards the principle here involved. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 43 agreed to.
Clause 44:
Procedure and enforcement of orders of arbitration tribunal
(3) The arbitration tribunal may, and if so ordered by the Court of Appeal shall, state in the form of a special case for determination by the Court of Appeal any question of law which may arise before them, and an appeal shall lie to the Court of Appeal on any question of law or fact from any determination or order of the arbitration tribunal on a claim under section eighteen of this Act against the directors of a company or on an application under section twenty-two, section twenty-four or section twenty-five of this Act in respect of any transaction.
LORD CLYDESMUIR LORD CLYDESMUIR moved, in subsection (3) after "application" to insert "or claim." The noble Lord said: This Amendment also deals with the arbitration tribunal. I hope that again the sweet spirit that pervades the Committee will enable us to reach an understanding

793
here, because I think we are not far apart. The purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that a right of appeal on a question of fact is allowed against the determination of a claim outstanding in respect of a transaction under Clause 25 (5). Your Lordships will recollect that that clause deals with transactions causing dissipation of assets. There is some back history to this, in which again the Solicitor-General for Scotland is interested, as he made some statements in another place on the subject. The purpose of moving my Amendment, which I will not expand in detail, because I think the noble Lord can save our time by giving us his opinion on it, is to ascertain whether it is clear that on questions of fact an appeal lies against the determination of a claim. If not, it would seem that the words of my Amendment should be inserted. I suggest to your Lordships that in any case it would do no harm to put in the words that I have here suggested to make the thing doubly secure. I will not enlarge further upon this Amendment unless your Lordships wish me to do so at a later stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 20, after ("application") insert ("or claim").—(Lord Clydesmuir.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am happy to say that the noble Lord has been so persuasive that I am going to accept not only this Amendment but the next one as well. What he has stated is quite right. There is an appeal against law and fact, exactly as he has said, and we see no reason why we should not make it perfectly plain by accepting both these Amendments standing in his name.
Law CLYDESMUIR: I thank the noble Lord for doing so. To avoid speaking twice, I should like now to thank the noble Lord also for rendering Scotland a service by accepting the next Amendment, which is a Scottish application to the same principle. In the name of Scotland, I thank him.
LORD GIFFORD: I should like to join in this double acceptance, which is rather rare.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 2, after ("application") insert ("or claim").—(Lord Clydesmuir.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 45 to 47 agreed to.
4.56 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, after Clause 47 to insert the following new clause:
Restoration of land
". Each publicly-owned company shall where economically practicable restore land from which iron ore has been extracted by it by open cast working to such condition as to be reasonably fit for agriculture or for afforestation or for some other beneficial use or as near as may be to the condition in which it was before the extraction took place."
The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is one which I think will receive support from all sides of the Committee. I am sure that any of your Lordships who has seen the devastated areas in the Midlands and in many other parts of the country, as I have seen them, will realise the importance of this Amendment. I think it is true to say that until comparatively recent times iron ore workings were confined to the vicinity of the outcrops, but during the late war we had difficulty in importing iron ore and we had greatly to step up home production. That great increase in production is now being continued, and rightly so. It is necessary that we should continue it because the iron ore is comparatively easily worked. This great increase in production has had the effect of laying waste large areas of land which we can ill afford to lose at the present time. I think it is true to say that we have only half an acre of agricultural land per head of population. It is interesting to recall that in open-cast mining operations carried out many years ago (and indeed not so many years ago) the surface was always replaced and restored for agricultural purposes.
But what is the position to-day? It is true that a proportion of the areas quarried has in fact been restored to agriculture, but there are many thousands of acres of land which are still derelict, and day by day this destruction is increasing. I understand that His Majesty's Government have had certain Committees sitting on this matter—in fact, a Committee sat as recently as 1946—but certainly no legislative action has yet taken place to deal with the problem of restoration. We

795
feel that this is an opportunity when something might be done and perhaps a statutory obligation put into the Bill to ensure that the publicly-owned companies will in fact restore the land where possible. This actually can be done, because in one case I know of a mining company in the Midlands which is developing about 1,500 acres of land, and the over-burden is 70 to 80 feet deep. They have undertaken to make complete restoration in this case. It can be done, by means of modern equipment.
A somewhat similar Amendment was moved in another place and was supported by members of all Parties, but it was rejected by the Minister for a reason which I find it difficult to appreciate. It was argued by the Minister that there were other forms of mining, some of which were being followed by companies outside the nationalisation fold. It is true that other mining concerns are also involved, but only to a very small degree. The two biggest problems involved in relation to the restoration of land, however, arise from iron ore and from opencast coal mining; and in the case of opencast coal mining I understand that an obligation to restore the land has now been included in all the contracts. That, of course, is fair and is being worked by the State. I think there should be similar conditions with regard to contracts for the mining of iron ore. A further argument raised by the Minister was that the right approach to the problem was through the Town and Country Planning Act, and that the Minister of Town and Country Planning had in fact himself given an assurance that he intended to see that effective conditions would be imposed. That is all very well, but I maintain that the devastation of agricultural land is so serious at the present time that something more than an assurance is now necessary, and the acceptance of this Amendment will assist the Minister in making good this assurance. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 47 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Teynham.)
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I beg to support the Amendment which has been so well moved by my noble friend, Lord Teynham. This, at any rate, is an Amendment which we can discuss without any heat whatever. I know we are
796
all agreed in regard to the principle which underlies the Amendment and the only problem is to carry it out in the most desirable way. The Minister said in another place that the main responsibility in regard to this matter lay with the Minister of Town and Country Planning. But he did say:
"I, too, will take all steps in my power—and they are quite considerable—to ensure that the Corporation and the publicly-owned companies carry out to the full their public obligations in this matter."
This Amendment has been very carefully framed in order to assist him in every possible way in ensuring that the Corporation and publicly-owned companies do not shirk this obligation in any way. We feel that in this respect there should be a statutory duty imposed on the companies rather than a general duty imposed on the Corporation.
I do not want to introduce any controversial points but the only way in which we may differ from noble Lords opposite is that they think the Corporation is going to be so perfect that it will never err in any direction. We do not share that feeling. We believe it will be just as subject to mistakes and greedy fingers as private owners have been in the past. But there is no doubt that the Corporation will have a very direct responsibility to the public in this respect. They must not leave dirty scars all over the country. Private owners may have done it in the past. I remember the late Earl Lloyd George discussing many years ago the state of the Black Country. He said:
"As you drive through the Black Country you can see once beautiful countryside destroyed by the scars made by the fingers of greed."
The fingers of my ancestors may have been partly responsible for some of those scars, but that is no reason why the Corporation should have the same guilt in the future. Indeed, there may have been some excuse for my ancestors in the past, because there did not exist at that time the machinery that exists to-day for restoring the countryside to its original beauty.
As noble Lords know, two Committees have been set up to inquire into this particular problem—the Kennet Committee and the Waters Committee. The Kennet Committee, in its Report published in 1939, said this:

797
"Considerable developments have been made in the design and use of earth-moving machinery and we do not think that there should now be any insuperable difficulty in undertaking the preparation of large areas of worked-out land either for afforestation or agricultural purposes or, where required, for constructional development, after the war."
The Report also said:
"Legislation should be passed, imposing an obligation on all those who derive benefit from the working of land for minerals, to restore that land for agricultural or afforestation or other purposes (as may be directed by an appropriate authority) within a short specified time after the land has been worked."
Then the Waters Report, which was published as recently as 1944, said:

"(1) in order to ensure the most efficient and economic use of the necessary machinery, restoration of the surface must be considered as a part of the operation of extracting the ironstone and not as something divorced from that, requiring subsequent and separate treatment;

(2) the developments of excavating machinery since 1945, particularly of the walking dragline, are such that a great deal more restoration is possible, concurrently with the excavation of the ironstone, than is now effected."

Some of the Committee may have seen a most interesting memorandum which has been issued by the National Council of Associated Iron Ore Producers on the working of ironstone all over the country. It is extremely interesting and the illustrations show exactly how this top spit—I believe that is the right word—can be removed, put aside and reimposed after the ironstone has been extracted, with practically no damage at all to the original top surface and at remarkably; low cost. I have heard that the cost of removing and replacing the top layer of soil is as low as 3s. per ton, which would mean a total expense of something under £400,000 a year for the annual area of ironstone to be worked. That, surely, is a very low burden of expenditure and the work should be carried out. I hope very much that the Government will either accept this Amendment or introduce something into the Bill which will ensure that this very necessary work is carried out by the Corporation in the future.
LORD PAKENHAM: The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, felt certain that support from all sides of the Committee would be forthcoming, and certainly it is forthcoming for his objective, which was very clearly stated by the noble Lord and by
798
the noble Earl, Lord Dudley. The noble Earl said that this is a matter which, in principle, can be discussed without any heat. I do not know that to-day it is easy to do anything without any heat! I am not quite sure that that is feasible in the circumstances. But perhaps it should be possible to discuss this matter without any humanly generated heat. I have been in touch with my right honourable friend the Minister, and I can assure the Committee that he fully sympathises with the desirability of the publicly-owned companies taking all appropriate steps to secure proper restoration of land from which iron ore is extracted. He recognises that the Corporation should play their part in assisting the publicly-owned companies to carry out their responsibility in this matter, and he is quite prepared to use his influence with the Corporation, should the necessity to do so arise. Therefore, as I say, in objective we are at one. But, as was explained in another place, we do take a view that it is inappropriate and unnecessary to include the proposed clause in the Iron and Steel Bill. I will come in a moment to the feeling we have about it, and I will indicate what we might do to meet noble Lords opposite if they wish to press the matter. But certainly that is our own basic view: that in fact it is unnecssary to include the clause here.
The control of land restoration is a function of the Minister of Town and Country Planning, and I can certainly assure the Committee that under the Town and Country Planning Act he has already adequate powers. He can attach conditions about land restoration to the permission given under that Act for the development of land for iron ore working, and he is satisfied that those conditions could be far more satisfactorily laid down by him (that is, the Minister of Town and Country Planning), dealing as they must with these different cases, than they could be in some general Amendment of the kind proposed by the noble Lords opposite.
I would say, however, that noble Lords have obviously given a great deal of thought to this, and may wish to discuss the matter further; and whilst I do not at this stage want to commit the Government in any particular direction I gladly agree to discussions before the next stage. We might consider a provision requiring

799
the Corporation to take appropriate action to secure the compliance by the publicly-owned companies with any conditions imposed under the Town and Country Planning Act. That might be one way of dealing with it, but I must say that we start with the view that it is not necessary to have a statutory provision in this Bill. We realise that the noble Lords opposite have given consideration to this matter, and that widespread public attention has been drawn to it; and, as I say, we shall be glad to have a discussion on it.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Whilst we agree that a discussion may be advisable, I would say that I think noble Lords on this side of the House (and I do not think it is confined to this side of the House) feel most strongly that there should be some provision of this nature in the Bill. The facilities are there now, and the iron ore companies, since the new technique was known, have had an extraordinarily good record in this matter. I myself had no idea, until I went into it, how good it was, and, happily, at least two-thirds of the ground has been restored to agriculture.
I think that there should most certainly be an obligation on the companies to restore this ground—whether it is a national Corporation or a private undertaking makes not the least difference. I do not think there is any question that we can trust a nationalised company to do this, but I would say that everybody ought to do it. I do not think we should get anywhere by leaving this to town and country planning, which has not a very commendable sound in this House. The Town and Country Planning Act is a good way of stopping things being done, and I do not think the idea that it would be a good way of getting things done would greatly appeal to your Lordships.
This has, moreover, nothing to do with town and country planning; this is not a case of landscape gardening. What we want is to have this land restored so that we can grow crops upon it. Quite honestly—and I want to speak bluntly about this—I have every belief that the Corporation, if it ever comes into existtence, will have a good intention in this matter but I have not the least faith in
800
the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. That they have grandiose schemes is true, but they are the worst enemies of agriculture in this country. I was present at the debate (which I expect the noble Lord attended: the Leader of the House was there because I saw him listening, with a barely concealed sympathy for what was being said, because he is a very good farmer) when case after case was advanced where the Minister of Town and Country Planning had made plans and regulations. One heard about schools—every school to be approached by an avenue of cypresses, as if it was the graveyard of Caesar—and the only result of these activities in every case would be to reduce the amount of agricultural land available for crops.
I hope that we come to an arrangement about this, but I feel sure that the provision ought to go in the Bill. It has to be a reasonable provision and I think this one is, because we condition it economically. The argument was made against it that there are many other things of the same kind to be dealt with; but that is not so, because the Government are taking over practically all the ironstone mining, and the only other case applicable is the open-cast coal mining, which again is in Government hands. I feel certain something ought to go into the Bill and I am quite sure that my noble friends will be glad to discuss it. The First Lord of the Admiralty said he did not want us to go into discussions under misapprehensions of what we could do. But we shall be very willing to discuss the terms of a clause which imposes an obligation on the Corporation. Quite frankly, if the approach is to be that this is to be left to the Minister of Town and Country Planning under the "Town and Country Planning (Frustration of Development) Act," or whatever it is, then obviously I do not think we could make that approach at all.
LORD PAKENHAM: The noble Viscount has passed some severe strictures on a Ministry which has not been under much fire in the course of this Bill, and for a particularly good reason—namely, that the Ministry of Town and Country Planning hardly seems relevant to our discussion. I cannot accept those observations, but I accept a great deal else of what has been said and if the noble

801
Lord is agreeable to discussions so are we. Let us go into them with a good heart and see what we can agree.
LORD TEYNHAM: In view of the assurances that have been given by the noble Lord, I do not propose to press this matter.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clause 49 agreed to.
Clause 50 [Regulations]:
VISCOUNT SWINTON: This Amendment is consequential upon the new clause which we passed after Clause 1, and the Amendments which the House made in Clause 2. I think, therefore, that the noble Lord will agree that it is purely a drafting Amendment and words ought to be inserted in the form in which they now stand on the Order Paper. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 6, after ("by") insert ("section (Powers of subsidiaries of the Corporation, section two and").—(Viscount Swinton.)
LORD PAKENHAM: I formally accept the Amendment as consequential, with the reservation, of course, that it will come out if the other Amendment comes out.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Yes, it will all "come out in the wash."
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 50, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 51:
Duty to furnish information
51.—(1) It shall be the duty of every company specified in the Third Schedule to this Act, and every company which on the twenty-ninth day of October, nineteen hundred and forty-eight, was a subsidiary of such a company, and every person in whom are vested any property or rights which were on or after the said day property or rights of any company so specified or any subsidiary thereof or which are derived from such property or rights, and every other person who carries on any of the activities specified in the first column of the Second Schedule to this Act—
(a) to produce, to any person authorised by the Minister on production by that person, if so required, of a duly authenticated document showing his authority, such books of account, records and documents, to supply copies of and extracts from such books, records and documents, and to furnish such other information, as may reasonably be re-
802
quired by the Minister or the Corporation for the purposes of the provisions of this Act; and
Provided that this subsection shall not apply to any company after it has come into public ownership, and shall cease to have effect on the expiration of a period of twelve months from the general date of transfer, except so far as it applies for the purposes of Part III of this Act.
5.19 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, in subsection (1) (a) to leave out "or the Corporation." The noble Lord said: For the convenience of your Lordships I would like to suggest that this Amendment, and the next two Amendments, to lines 33 and 41, should be taken together. The real object of this Amendment is to confine the obligation to supply information under this clause to such information as may reasonably be required by the Minister for the purposes of Part II and Part III of this Bill. It is clear that the powers of the Minister and the Corporation to obtain information are very wide indeed and will cover all those units which do no come within the field of nationalisation. It is true that the Corporation before the vesting date will, of course, need certain information from the companies to be taken over. But there appears to be no reason why they should require such information from those units outside the field of nationalisation.
Let us suppose that the Corporation do require such information. They will be free to come to the Minister and make their case, and he can authorise his representative to obtain the information. We feel that it should be the duty of the-Minister to decide if the information required is really necessary. It would surely be wrong for the Corporation, however inadvertently, to obtain trade secrets or other such information froth its competitors.
The third Amendment included in the group—that to line 41—limits the information which units outside the field of nationalisation would be obliged to furnish to information showing the extent and amount of the production of the products of the activities specified in the first column of the Second Schedule to the Bill. This information will allow the Minister to determine whether those units outside the field of nationalisation are or are not infringing the terms of their

803
licences. The Minister must be empowered to demand the information which will enable necessary arrangements to be made in accordance with Part II and Part III of the Bill, but I suggest that there is no reason why any further information should be required. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 32, leave out ("or the Corporation.")—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD ROCHDALE: I would like to support the three Amendments which my noble friend is moving. We have heard a good deal, during discussions on this Bill, about the Government's wish for fair competition between activities carried out by the Corporation and its subsidiary companies and those of the companies still operating under free enterprise. As the clause now under consideration stands, it would be possible for the Corporation and its companies to find out anything they wanted to know about their free competitors; and, frankly, with the best will in the world. I find it difficult to call that fair competition. It seems to me that such an idea of fair competition is a complete fallacy. To one particular point which really underlies the third Amendment I would like to draw attention now. In this particular Amendment we are attempting to confine the information to that showing the extent and amount of the production of the various products of the activities specified in the first column of the Second Schedule to the Bill. If that is accepted, well and good. But, as the Bill now stands, it will be possible for the Corporation to seek information about all sorts of matters—financial matters, as regards costs, margins and so forth. It would seem to me to be completely wrong for the Corporation to ask for that. I can imagine that it might be an argument on the part of the Minister that he wanted the information in connection with the question of controlling prices. But I claim that we have already met that point by introducing into this Bill, at an earlier stage, provision for the Prices Board. In the clause for establishing that body there is full scope for enabling all the information on all relevant financial matters that they could possibly need for the matter of price control to be fur-
804
nished to the Prices Board. What we are seeking to restrict this clause to, seems to me to be adequate for any reasonable purpose that the Minister might want.
LORD MORRISON: I am obliged to the noble Lords for taking these three Amendments together. With their permission I would like to deal with the third one first. It is an Amendment which I am afraid I am not able to accept. It seeks to limit information obtainable under Clause 51, as the noble Lord said (except in the case of Third Schedule companies and their subsidiaries), to information showing the extent and amount of production from Second Schedule activities. The reason we cannot accept that limitation is that it may be necessary to obtain information other than that to which the Amendment refers. This may well have been overlooked by the noble Lords. For example, under Clause 23, there are powers to recover any assets (whether or not related to Second Schedule activities) which were, at the date of the publication of the Bill, in the possession of a Third Schedule company and which have subsequently passed into the possession of another company, person or partnership. Similarly, before exercising his powers under Clause 23, the Minister may find it necessary to secure information from the person to whom the assets have been, or appear to have been, transferred. Clause 22 also prohibits the transfer of rights in any works or part of any works which has been used by a Third Schedule company for carrying on Second Schedule activities, but if any transfer were carried out in contravention of this clause, it might relate to a part of a works—for example, a power house, which was not capable of producing Second Schedule products, and, therefore, under the Amendment the Minister would not have powers to obtain information from the person to whom the transfer had been made. He might need to have such information in connection with the operation of Clause 22.
May I suggest that the general safeguard is that under Clause 51 the Minister can demand only information which is
"reasonably required … for the purposes of the provisions of this Act."
I would also add that the powers to obtain information on the matters I have

805
mentioned are already limited by the clause, as drafted, to a period of twelve months following the general date of transfer. After that, the Clause 51 powers will exist only for the purposes of Part III of the Act—that is to say, the licensing provisions—and at this second stage the Minister would require from the licensees information only in respect of Second Schedule activities. I hope that that explanation may go some little way towards satisfying noble Lords. If I may, I will now turn to the other two Amendments which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, included in the group of three of which he spoke.
With regard to the first—that to page 54, line 32—the effect of deleting the words which the noble Lord proposes should be deleted would be to preclude the Minister from being able to obtain, until the actual vesting, any information required by the Corporation from any of the companies which will come into public ownership under Part II of the Bill. I will give three examples of the effects, and the noble Lord will then appreciate my difficulties. First, under the noble Lord's Amendment, the Corporation could not, for instance, secure particulars of the companies' accounting methods, and would thus be hampered in putting into effect as soon as possible after the vesting, the standardisation of accountancy methods which is a necessary preliminary to preparing consolidated accounts under Clause 38 (Part IV) as soon as practicable. Secondly, in anticipation of the vesting the Corporation might well consider it desirable to have particulars of the boards of directors and the higher executive staff of the companies, with a view to being ready to make whatever changes they consider desirable with the minimum of delay. Thirdly, the Corporation might consider it desirable to secure information concerning the financial resources of the companies to come into public ownership in order to decide whether it would be desirable for them to exercise their borrowing powers to some extent at an early date. There may well be other matters in regard to which it will make for efficiency and smooth operation for the Corporation to be armed, in advance of the transfer date, with information concerning the various companies which will come into public ownership at that date.
806
These, in brief, are the reasons why I am unable to accept the noble Lord's Amendment. But I am ready, if he is willing, to make a deal with him. Towards that I start by admitting that the clause as drafted does give the Corporation wide powers, and it would enable them to obtain, if so authorised by the Minister, information from, and search the records of, companies carrying out Second Schedule activities. I go further. I admit that as such of these companies as remain under private ownership will be both customers and competitors of the publicly-owned companies, there is ground for the objections to the Corporation's having such wide powers. I said I was endeavouring to arrange a deal with the noble Lord, and in these circumstances, while the Amendment in the form on the Order Paper cannot be accepted, I am authorised to say that the Government are prepared, if the Amendment is withdrawn, to introduce appropriate Amendments at Report stage to secure that the Corporation has no power under Clause 51, except for the purpose of the transfer of publicly-owned companies and matters immediately arising therefrom. That suggested deal, if I may use the words to the noble Lord, may appeal to him.
LORD TEYNHAM: Will what the noble Lord has said apply also to the second and third Amendments?
LORD MORRISON: This applies only to the first and second Amendments. I have no authority to make any concession on the third. But I am quite prepared to consider this between now and Report stage, to enable noble Lords to read the actual Amendments which the Government propose to put down. These are: at page 54, line 32, leave out "or the Corporation"; page 54, line 33, after "Act" insert "or by the Corporation for the purposes of Part II and Part IV of this Act." I hope that suggestion may be agreeable to the noble Lord.
LORD TEYNHAM: We are very grateful to the noble Lord. Of course, we cannot say at the moment whether we can accept the suggested Amendments, but we will see them on the Order Paper on Report stage and will certainly consider them. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I hope the noble Lord has not entirely shut the door to further discussion on the third Amendment, because surely the principle is exactly the same. I hope the noble Lord will at least have discussions on all three Amendments.
LORD MORRISON: Certainly.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.33 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved to add to the clause:
"( ) If any person reasonably incurs expense in the course of or for the purposes of complying with any requirement or request whether formal or informal, made or purporting to be made by or on behalf of the Minister or the Corporation under this section, that person shall be entitled to recover the amount of that expense from the Minister or the Corporation as the case may be at the option of that person."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment follows a precedent established under the Electricity Act, 1947, which lays down that provision should be made for the payment of expenses incurred for providing information. I feel sure that the Government will have no difficulty in accepting this Amendment. It may be that a company or person will be involved in considerable expense in providing information required under this clause. It may be necessary to employ auditors to make certified returns and perhaps accountants to prepare figures. In some cases it may even be necessary to take on additional staff. It seems only fair that any expenses incurred should be reimbursed when they have been reasonably incurred.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 5, at end, insert the said subsection.—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD MORRISON: As the noble Lord has said, it is true that the Electricity Act and the Gas Act provide for payment of expenses to persons required to furnish information and to provide facilities for examining and copying records. But the purpose of the information sections in these two Acts is not the same as that in this Bill. Perhaps the noble Lord has overlooked the fact that in this Bill the Clause 51 powers operate only for twelve months from the general date of transfer for the "once for all" cases, but continue indefinitely for the licensing provisions. In the "once for
808
all cases—that is, during the twelve months' period—the cost should be only relatively small administrative expenses, and generally the companies concerned would be those likely to come into public ownership. But information may be required for the licensing provisions on a recurring basis. It would generally be statistical details, which should be capable of verification without great trouble. Under present conditions, administration is dependent to a large extent on licensing provisions and it is undesirable to make statutory provision for reimbursement of expenses involved in enforcing licensing conditions. In other words, that part of the noble Lord's Amendment which would affect the licensing conditions opens up a matter which goes far beyond the limits of even this Bill. This point was dealt with only recently in the case of the Monopolies Bill, where a proposal that manufacturers should be relieved of the costs of providing statistics was rejected. If this was acceded to in this Bill so far as licensing provisions were concerned, it would have far-reaching consequences on other measures. I am sorry I am unable to accept the Amendment.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I am sorry I cannot follow the argument of the Minister. There will be certain expenses and possibly considerable expenditure incurred by the free and licensed companies in providing information which the Minister and the Corporation may seek. It is not fair that they should carry the burden of providing that information. There is no fairness in that whatsoever. There should be some mechanism under which they could claim expenses, whether small or large, for providing the information which they have to provide under this Bill. The work involved is not going to help them in any way; it is going to be a dead loss for them. Why should they have the added insult and inconvenience of this expense? I think the Government are very unreasonable. I thought they would have accepted this Amendment straight away.
LORD ROCHDALE: Probably other noble Lords have seen the calculation which I saw the other day; that the clerical staffs of industrial concerns spend on an average 10 per cent. of their time in filling up forms in answer to Government demands. This may be a little one,

809
as the noble Lord says, but it adds to these other impositions, which mount in time to considerable sums of money. I hope the noble Lord will do something to reconsider by noble friend's Amendment.
LORD HAWKE: I should like to reinforce the last plea. Speaking as one who was a civil servant and was in the habit of asking people for information, I may say that one asks for a great deal of information which one would have no idea of asking for, if one's Department had to bear the cost of it on its Vote.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I hope the noble Lord will reconsider this question. If it is known that expenses can be recovered, it may act as a deterrent on those people who seek information very often to an excessive degree. The Government have been very reasonable in many directions this afternoon and have tried to meet us. It seems only fair and reasonable that if information is demanded under Statute, with the full force of the law behind it, those who are put to expense through the excessive use of the wide powers given to the Minister and the Corporation should be reimbursed on a reasonable basis. It is a matter of fair dealing. Would the noble Lord reconsider the matter between now and the next stage of the Bill?
LORD MORRISON: The only reason why I am unable to accept this Amendment (I am not disputing whether it is unfair or not) is that it is no more unfair than what happens to employers in all kinds of businesses. Therefore I endeavoured to explain that if this Amendment were accepted it would go far beyond the powers of this Bill—it would not end there. Recently in the Monopolies Bill a proposal that manufacturers should be relieved of the cost of providing statistics was rejected. To accept that in a Bill which deals with iron and steel would seem to me to be opening a door. However, I always try my best to be accommodating, and if noble Lords think conversations will be helpful I am quite prepared to enter into them. I cannot go beyond that.
LORD TEYNHAM: Frankly, I do not think the noble Lord has made a very good case. He has given no instance of how, if this Amendment were accepted, it would affect other cases outside the
810
Bill. The fact remains that the expenses incurred on behalf of the Corporation will be incurred solely because of this Bill. I would like to reserve the right to look at the matter again, and perhaps we can discuss it before the next stage. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 51 agreed to.
Clauses 52 to 57 agreed to.
Clause 58:
Interpretation
58.—(1) In this Act the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:—
"manufacturing purposes," includes the carrying-out of building operations and works of construction or civil engineering and the treatment of products by any process;
5.42 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: This is almost a drafting Amendment. In this clause, both at the bottom of page 59 and at the top of page 60, the word "group" is used. It is presumably used in its semi-technical accounting sense, as there is no definition in the clause of the word "group." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 19, at end insert—
("'group' in relation to companies means a company and all other companies which are subsidiaries thereof.")—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD PAKENHAM: The noble Lord said that this is almost a drafting Amendment, but some of those take the longest time. If we really thresh this matter out we shall have quite a good discussion. We are convinced that this Amendment is not appropriate. I will explain to the noble Lord why, and perhaps he will then consider whether he feels it necessary to press the point or to discuss it afterwards. There is no need at all for the definition of the word "group" in the Bill as drafted. The word is used in Clause 38 (3), to which the noble Lord has not alluded, in connection with "group accounts." There "group" is defined by reference to Section 150 (1) of the Companies Act, 1948. It is also used in the definition of "publicly-owned company" in Clause 58. That is what the noble Lord has in mind. May I put the meaning of this admittedly rather abstruse passage at the end of page 59 in non-

811
technical language? What one really means there is that a publicly-owned company is a member of this group, which consists of the Corporation and all the wholly-owned subsidiaries. They would be either wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Corporation, or wholly-owned subsidiaries of the wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Corporation—either the children or the grandchildren. That is the meaning. I have taken advice on this point, and I am assured that I am not putting it inaccurately when I state it as I have. The passage is admittedly rather abstruse, and I am sure the way in which I have given it is not so capable of legal interpretation as the way in which it is put here. If the noble Lord can see his way to withdraw the Amendment, perhaps we can discuss the point with the object of seeing whether matters can be helped along.
LORD HAWKE: Do I understand the noble Lord to say that "group" as used on page 59 and 60 has no technical connotation, but just means a collection?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: A bunch.
LORD PAKENHAM: It means the particular bunch as explained here.
LORD HAWKE: If that is the case, does not the noble Lord think it a little misleading to use the word "group," which has achieved a semi-technical meaning? Perhaps our explorations, if we have any, might go towards seeing whether "bunch" would not be a better word than "group" in this particular context.
LORD PAKENHAM: If I may put it colloquially, I have a "hunch" that the word "bunch" will not "fill the bill." Perhaps I can pursue this matter with the noble Lord. I am assured that this passage—which, in my view, is not the clearest or most artistic piece of draftsmanship I have ever come across—is, in fact, a masterpiece of the draftsman's art and cannot be improved upon.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It is the "art which conceals art."
LORD PAKENHAM: Exactly.
LORD HAWKE: At the moment I will leave the noble Lord with his legal
812
entente, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved to add to the definition of "manufacturing purposes":
"and the use of products for the carrying out of building operations or works of construction or civil engineering shall be deemed to be use by the building owner as well as the builder or contractor."
The noble Lord said: This is a simple Amendment, and I can explain it in a few words. Your Lordships will remember that in the Consumers' Council the people who can make representations are referred to as consumers. In this clause "consumers" is interpreted as meaning those who use products for manufacturing purposes. Turning over the page, one sees that "manufacturing purposes" includes "the carrying-out of building operations and works of constructional or civil engineering." All this Amendment seeks to do is to clarify the position. Suppose you have an industrialist who wishes to build a factory and who may be in a big way of business and have his own building staff. Under the clause as drafted he is a consumer and can make representations, if he wishes, to the Consumers' Council. But if he is a man in a small way of business, not having his own building staff but employing a contractor, it seems that there is some doubt whether he is a consumer and can make representations. If the noble Lord can assure me that the man who uses a contractor is just as much covered as the man who uses his own staff, I shall be satisfied. As it is at present, the point does not seem very clear. It is of some importance, because 30 per cent. of the constructional engineering works in the country are likely to be taken over with the publicly-owned companies when they are transferred to the Corporation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 33, at end, insert the said words.—(Lord Rochdale.)
LORD PAKENHAM: I personally was not aware of the figures the noble Lord has just given. I have no doubt they are correct, and I have no doubt that my advisers are thoroughly aware of them. I am afraid that, without fuller consultation, I cannot satisfy the noble Lord, and

813
I do not really wish to hold out an expectation of being able to satisfy him, anxious though we are this afternoon to meet noble Lords in every way. As at present advised, it is very difficult to define "building owners." I do not know whether the noble Lord has taken legal advice, but that does not appear to be a term which is very familiar to the experts. Once one began extending the range of the Consumers' Council to cover persons of this type, it is difficult to see where one would draw the line. I am afraid I cannot hold out much hope to the noble Lord, but I should have thought there was no danger of their interests being neglected.
LORD ROCHDALE: The noble Lord will appreciate that there may be very little difference between whether you employ contractors or not. You might on one operation employ a contractor, and carry out the next one yourself. However, I will not pursue this Amendment further at the moment. In view of what the noble Lord has said about the difficulty of interpretation, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 58 agreed to.
Clause 59 agreed to.
Clause 60 [Short title and extent]:
VISCOUNT SWINTON: We took the decision on this Amendment on Clause 11; it is consequential to that. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 62, line 10, at end insert—
("( ) This Act shall come into force on the first day of October, nineteen hundred and fifty.")—(Viscount Swinton.)
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I agree with the statement made by the noble Viscount.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 60, as amended, agreed to.
First to Fourth Schedules agreed to.
Fifth Schedule [Provisions as to office of stockholders' representative, meetings of holders of securities and incidental matters]:
5.50 p.m.
LORD LLOYD LORD LLOYD moved, after paragraph 16 to insert:
"( ) At the conclusion of the proceedings of the said meeting, or of any adjournment thereof, as the case may be, the stockholders'
814
representative unless the meeting resolve otherwise shall, in so far as concerns any matter disclosed in the said statement or at the said meeting, or at any adjournment thereof, stand discharged as between himself and the holders of securities of his duties and responsibilities as such representative."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is really a "tidying-up" Amendment to deal with this question of the stockholders' representative. If your Lordships will look at page 74, you will find that when the stockholders' representative has finished his duties he has to report back to his stockholders as to how he has fared, and what he has done; and then, apparently, so far as one can see from the Schedule, nothing more happens. In fact, the unfortunate man is left being a stockholders' representative, possibly until the end of his life. We feel that he ought to be formally discharged when he has completed his duties, and the Amendment which I am moving seeks to cover that. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 32, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Lloyd.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I hope to persuade the noble Lord that this is not necessary. I think the noble Lord has borrowed this from the Gas Act.
LORD LLOYD: Yes.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thought so. The circumstances are not comparable. In the case of gas, the stockholders' representative had the duty of discharging the final payments of dividend. In this case he has not, and when he has convened this meeting, and given the stockholders an account of his-stewardship, his duties end. He has nothing else to do, as paragraph 16 of the Fifth Schedule plainly lays down. I hope to persuade the noble Lord that it is absolutely unnecessary to load the Bill with these words, and I hope he will withdraw the Amendment.
LORD LLOYD: My advice was that these words were necessary, but it is not an Amendment upon which I feel strongly. I am perfectly prepared to take the noble Lord's assurance that these words are unnecessary, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Fifth Schedule agreed to.
Sixth Schedule:
Acquisition of certain assets
5. The compensation payable under the preceding provisions of this Schedule by the Corporation shall be satisfied by the issue to the transferor of such amount of British Iron and Steel Stock as, in the opinion of the Treasury, was on the general date of transfer of a value equal to that compensation, regard being had (in estimating the value of the stock so issued) to the market value of government securities at or about the general date of transfer; and the Corporation shall be liable to pay interest on that amount, at such rates as the Treasury may determine, from the said date (that is, the date referred to in paragraph 1 of this Schedule) until the date of payment.
5.54 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved to add to paragraph 5:
"Provided that in a case to which paragraph (4) of this Schedule applies payment of the compensation shall be made to the encumbrance in cash."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is of rather more importance than one or two with which we have just dealt. Clause 23 is what one might call the "clawing-back" clause. Where a company, after a certain date towards the end of 1948, have parted with any rights of ownership in works, patents, inventions or designs, the Minister may get them back if it is necessary for the Corporation to have them. Now the company will have parted with those properties to someone else, and the new owner may well have raised money on them. He then becomes the peculiar form of animal known as the encumbrancer. Under the Bill, the encumbrancer has to be paid off before the property returns back, and the Corporation have to deal with the encumbrancer direct. Now from the way in which the Schedule is drafted, it rather looks as if the draftsmen had in mind that this encumbrancer was going to receive cash, as it would seem right and proper that he should. But in practice, of course, he is going to receive this script. So having lent money—hard cash—only a short time before he is now to get a piece of paper which may or may not be realisable for the amount of money which he advanced on the property. I should add that a lot of these amounts might well be small, particularly in the case of designs, patents, inventions and so on, and in those cases it would be quite unsuitable to pay off encumbrancers in script. In the other cases, where the amounts would
816
be large, admittedly it would be practicable to pay them off in script, but I do not think it would be equitable. For those reasons we seek to amend the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 22, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD LLOYD: I should like briefly to support this Amendment, because it is rather an important one. I should like to add a word with regard to mortgages. I think your Lordships will agree that if one takes a mortgage on a property one expects normally that it should be regarded as a cash transaction. One buys shares on the Stock Exchange, or something like that, and accepts various risks of the market; but a mortgage has always been a cash transaction and undoubtedly, as my noble friend has said, many of these amounts are small and would be much more easily satisfied by cash. I think there is a very strong case for this Amendment, and I hope the Government will accept it.
LORD PAKENHAM: I am far from denying that one could imagine hard cases arising in the sort of situation envisaged by the noble Lord, but there are three arguments the other way which I should mention before I ask the noble Lord to adopt an attitude—the noble Lord smiles: he must have his joke, but I wish he would disclose it.
LORD HAWKE: I will adopt an attitude later on.
LORD PAKENHAM: I hope the noble Lord will adopt an attitude of gravity while I am answering what he has represented as a very grave problem. In the first place, the general basis for the Bill is that compensation is payable in stock, and the noble Lord is asking us to make an exception. The second point, of course, is that all concerned in the kind of transaction he has in mind under Clause 23 have entered into this with their eyes open. That includes the encumbrancers, because the operations cannot have begun until after the Bill was introduced. So do not let us think there is some fair lender who had entered into this arrangement before he knew there was to be a Bill of this kind. The third point—and I ask for the noble Lord's close attention, because he rightly represented that this

817
was a matter not without importance—is that an Amendment such as he is suggesting would lay itself open to rather grave abuse. May I take the noble Lord through an actual illustration with which I have been provided?
Suppose that a Third Schedule company—Company A—after the date of the introduction of the Bill had disposed of its power-house to Company B for £4,000. B obtains a loan from C on the security of the power-house. The Minister thinks that the power-house is essential in the public interest for the efficient carrying-on of the business of A, and to reintegrate the power-house with Company A serves the appropriate notice under Clause 23. The compensation is prescribed in paragraph 3 of the Sixth Schedule and is payable in British Iron and Steel Stock. It is payable by £1,000 to the lender, who satisfies his claim and hands the balance to B. That is as at present proposed. But let us take the case of what would happen under the noble Lord's Amendment, and assume that the actual amount of the loan was only £5. Now, if the noble Lord has his way, then £1,000 would be paid in cash to C, who keeps £5 and pays over £995 to B. By this arrangement (a perfectly legal one) B would be the fortunate gentleman who had collected £995 in cash instead of stock—which would be the fate of his rivals and competitors. That is a genuine difficulty. In face of it, I do not ask the noble Lord to form an attitude too quickly, but it is a difficulty, and perhaps he would like a little time to think it over.
LORD HAWKE: I think the example that the noble Lord has given does credit to the ingenuity of his advisers: it is yet another example of the remarkable ingenuity of the professional advisers of His Majesty's Government in discovering the evil things that other people might do. It might sometimes tend to disclose the thoughts that at times pass through their own minds! I freely admit this case might occur, but it seems to me an extraordinarily far-fetched possibility. I do not see that a tremendous lot of harm has been done if one company happens to get some cash instead of script. After all, Government stock is ultimately realisable in cash, and it is just a question of market value. The mortgagee, who is the encumbrancer, might
818
lose a few pounds per cent. under the Bill as it stands, whereas giving him cash makes certain that he does not. The noble Lord visualises a sort of conspiracy which is not a genuine transaction. I cannot deny that such a thing could happen; anybody who knows his Sherlock Holmes as well as the noble Lord and I do, knows that many strange things might happen—but such things do not happen in the iron and steel trade, with whom we are dealing. I do not propose to press this Amendment, but I must say I think the noble Lord is showing more ingenuity than reasonableness in the matter. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
LORD PAKENHAM: I think the noble Lord has shown a very reasonable attitude.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sixth Schedule agreed to.
Seventh Schedule:
Provisions as to British Iron and Steel Stock
(4) Notwithstanding anything in the preceding provisions of this paragraph the Corporation may, with the consent of the Minister and the approval of the Treasury, employ for any of the purposes for which money may be borrowed by the issue of stock any money for the time being standing to the credit of any Redemption Fund Account and for such purposes as aforesaid sell any securities in which the last mentioned money is for the time being invested and employ the proceeds:
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN moved, in paragraph 4, to omit sub-paragraph (4). The noble Viscount said: I am sorry to say that, Lord Rennell, in whose name this Amendment stands, is unwell, and I know he would wish me to apologise to noble Lords opposite for his unavoidable absence. This Amendment is put down partly as a clarifying Amendment, but it is also intended as a mild protest against what looks like an encouragement to imprudent finance on the part of the Iron and Steel Corporation. Your Lordships will remember that, when we were dealing with Clause 32, we were at some pains to discover exactly how much cash His Majesty's Government considered that the Iron and Steel Corporation should have at their disposal. There was, first, the £350,000,000 borrowing powers, and there was also an unspecified amount of temporary borrowing. One would have thought that between them these

819
two would have given the Corporation an ample supply of cash for all legitimate purposes.
But paragraph 4 (4) of the Seventh Schedule says:
" … the Corporation may, with the consent of the Minister and the approval of the Treasury, employ for any of the purposes for which money may be borrowed"—
that, I take it, is for Clause 32 purposes—
"by the issue of stock any money for the time being standing to the credit of any Redemption Fund Account …"
Many people feel that money once placed in, or transferred to, funds earmarked for the redemption of stock should be left there; that is to say, that for every £1 shown on one side of the balance sheet there should be gilt-edged securities, or such like, immediately realisable on the other side, so that a policy of redeeming stock can be carried on, without risk of its being jeopardised by unfortunate financial occurrences. Here, it seems to me, we have a provision which may be interpreted to mean the reverse of that state of affairs. It would be perfectly possible, as I understand it, to find that money which had been used in good faith for some other purpose specified in the Act would not be available at the time redemption was due. This might surely have an adverse effect on the policy of redemption which, as was suggested earlier in the discussion on this Bill, should be a long-term policy organised for ninety years. We are a little suspicious of this clause, because it opens the door to illegitimate supplies of cash and other evils. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 79, line 22, leave out sub-paragraph (4).—(Viscount Bridgeman.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I express, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches, our regret at the unfortunate illness of Lord Rennell? At the same time, if I may be allowed to say so with respect, his absence has at least enabled the noble Viscount to state the case concisely, shortly, and with great point. The noble Viscount's contention that this money should be invested only in easily negotiable stocks—not only gilt-edged but also trustee stocks—easily realisable, is one to which His Majesty's Government do not altogether subscribe. It seems to some of us not to be a good
820
policy that, if you have money in a redemption fund account, you should not be able to use that money for purposes for which, as the noble Viscount has pointed out, you have powers of borrowing. He bases his argument on the question of risk—the risk that when the specified period came to an end there would not be sufficient money in the redemption fund account to redeem the stock. But I think the noble Viscount has lost sight of one very important fact, which is that this money can be used only with the consent of the Minister and the approval of the Treasury.
The Treasury, on behalf of His Majesty's Government and of Britain, are the guarantors, and so over the twenty or thirty or ninety years' period for which the stock is issued, there is no risk whatsoever, because if the money is not there it will have to be found by new borrowing, and it will have to have the Treasury guarantee. If the noble Lord says there is a risk, he is inadvertently impugning the credit of the Government in this country, and I am certain he has not the faintest intention of doing that. I think he will see that there is no risk while the stock is Government-guaranteed gilt-edged stock. While the guarantee of this country is behind it, there must always be money in the redemption funds account to meet the redemption stock, and if it has been used for any purpose, which the Treasury must approve, it will be the responsibility of the Treasury to put the money there to redeem the stock. That is my answer to the noble Viscount. I hope that it completely satisfies him.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I am much obliged to the noble Lord opposite for his very clear answer. It does not completely satisfy me, because I think that up to a point it is begging the question. If the Corporation were an ordinary public company, I think—I am not certain—that the auditors of that company would not take a 100 per cent. good view if the directors proposed to use the redemption monies in this way. I certainly would not have suggested that the Treasury guarantee was not good enough for anything. I am suggesting that a situation ought not to arise where a Treasury guarantee has to be given in order to make possible a transaction

821
which, by many ordinary standards in finance, would be looked on with suspicion. However, I think discussion on this Amendment has served to clear the position. The double safeguard of the Minister and the Treasury certainly makes it unlikely that anything will go wrong. All I can say is that I hope this provision will be very little used, because the less it is used the greater the indication that the finances of the Corporation are soundly run. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Seventh Schedule agreed to.
Eighth Schedule agreed to.
Ninth Schedule [Modifications as to constitution and proceedings of publicly-owned companies]:
VISCOUNT SWINTON VISCOUNT SWINTON moved, after paragraph 7 to insert:
"A publicly-owned company shall not, without the consent in writing of the Minister, alter any of the provisions of its articles of association which relate to or affect the appointment or tenure of office of its chairman man or president or similar officer or of its directors or any of them."
The noble Viscount said: In the regrettable and unexpected absence of my noble friend Lord Layton I must do my best to put myself into his mind, as well as to take his place. I know that his object in putting down this Amendment was to add material for the discussion on how we are to preserve the independence of these companies, and reconcile it with the overriding control of the Corporation. Your Lordships will appreciate that the Corporation, when it becomes the sole shareholder of these companies, can get rid of every single director at a moment's notice. This Amendment, which my noble friend, Lord Layton, discussed with me, is not put down in the interests of keeping jobs for directors as directors. I am sure your Lordships will appreciate that. It is down to try to secure that there is a reasonable measure of independence. Of course, when there are vacancies on boards the Corporation, as the shareholder, will appoint.
We have often been told that the Corporation ought to have the powers of shareholders in ordinary public companies and should exercise them as such. But, of course, the Memorandum and Articles of Association of a public company pro-
822
vide for the directors retiring in rotation and others being nominated in their place in the event of the retiring directors not coming up for re-election.
That, of course, gives some measure of security. But if there is a director with whom the company cannot get on, they do their best to get rid of him—and they generally succeed. One does it even in a Cabinet sometimes! I see that my noble friend Lord Layton is now present—I beg his pardon. I hope that I am correctly putting forward what he wishes to be said. If the shareholders want to get rid of a director, they can get rid of him. But, after all, there has to be a majority of the shareholders to do it. They may not all take the same view. Some of them may not like a certain director, while others may say that he is extremely good. At any rate, it goes by the vote. This time, there will be only one voter, as is the case with the Communist Party. The only voter will be the Minister or the Corporation. Having thus gone in and opened the innings—I hope in conformity with what my noble friend, Lord Layton, had in mind—I think that in his interests and in the interests of the Committee I cannot do better than resume my seat and make way for my noble friend to continue. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 16, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Swinton.)
6.17 p.m.
LORD LAYTON: I must apologise to your Lordships for not being in my place during the afternoon. Your Lordships have dealt with the Amendments on the Order Paper with a greater speed than some expected. I do not wish to speak at any length on this Amendment. It was put on the Order Paper primarily in order that we might draw attention to the point that the autonomy of the separate companies, which is to be discussed between the present stage and Report stage, should include the question of security of tenure of directors. I make no pretence to suggest that this Amendment is drawn in an ideal form. Quite obviously the Articles of Association must vary greatly in this matter of the tenure of office of directors, their retirement by rotation and so forth. But, as I said previously in discussing a previous Amendment, the Bill as it stands at

823
present permits the Corporation to sweep away the Articles of Association at any moment, and there is nothing whatever to give any indication that the Corporation propose to establish any standard rules—for example, about the retaining of power by directors, and so forth. Clearly, it is to be a competition. Two things are required. One is that the independent companies should be able to back their opinion against authority. The second is that, if that opinion is to be effectively expressed there must be some final security of tenure for the management, the directors, to prove themselves right.
I do not propose to discuss this now because something will arise upon this issue. There are many variants of this type of concept. I do not suggest that this is a specific, concrete proposition, but it would be in tune with the views of those of us who are concerned with the idea of retaining independence, if some such provision for continuity of tenure were made contingent upon a profit being made by the independent concern. That concept would be completely in line with the idea that, so long as an independent firm is efficient—and profit is the old-established test—there should be definite limits to the possibility of the Corporation changing management and imposing standard rules upon it. I table this Amendment only in order that this topic might come up in the course of discussions as to the autonomy of the independent companies.
LORD PAKENHAM: We all envy the noble Viscount his capacity to go in to bat at a moment's notice. We would agree that there is no one who has, so to speak, his pads on so continuously. He is never taken unawares.
LORD STRABOLGI: He is a good stonewaller, too.
LORD PAKENHAM: He hits sixes occasionally—and also loses his wicket occasionally. The noble Viscount took on this matter at short notice in a way that would appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Layton, who has exempted me from pursuing the merits of the case at any length. Though no doubt it is in the minds of noble Lords who have spoken, I would mention, for the benefit of the Committee, that paragraph 7 of the Ninth Schedule
824
provides that, notwithstanding anything in the Memoranda of the existing companies, it shall be competent for the shareholders—that is, the Corporation—to give twenty-eight days' notice of a resolution for the removal of a director; and in this respect it corresponds with Section 184 of the Companies Act, 1948. I bear in mind what the noble Lord has said or implied in relation to that matter, but what I have just said should go on record for the purposes of the Committee.
The noble Viscount and Lord Layton both agree that this point is closely linked with the issues raised on the new clause after Clause 4. I would just say here—and I hope no one will think I am trying to bang the door or prejudice the outcome of these talks—that the Minister has considered the matter further and it is his view at this stage that it would be inappropriate to write into the Statute provisions determining human relations and normal matters of organisation. I think I should say that in advance, to give the Committee some idea of his point of view. I should add that it would be particularly inappropriate to lay down rules about the relationship between the individuals on the Steel Board and the individuals on the boards of these companies in a way that would imply that there was not going to be good and gentlemanly feeling between them. We all assume, on whatever side of the Committee we sit, that there will be co-operation between these various bodies, and I know the Minister would be particularly loath to say anything which would imply the contrary. So much by way of generalisation. These matters are clearly linked with the suggested new clause, and in the circumstances I hope the noble Lords will withdraw the Amendment.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Of course I respond to the appeal to withdraw the Amendment, and I will not say any more than this about the negotiations, which I hope may be fruitful although I must admit it did not look as though we were very close together last time. If nothing is put into the Bill about what the noble Lord calls "human relations"—"human relations" in this connection means the relations between the Corporation and the companies—that is the equivalent to saying there can be no human relationship at all. If that is the

825
view, it is very difficult to see on what basis the negotiations can start, much less how they can arrive at any agreed conclusion. I know the noble Lord is speaking for the Minister but I would just ask him to reconsider this. By providing in a contract that in cases of dispute you go to arbitration, you do not assume that the parties are going to have disputes about everything. Indeed, arbitrations are referred to throughout this Bill. It really does not mean that.
All of us have entered into agreements which, as a common form, have included an arbitration clause, but in the experience of anybody here I am sure that has never meant that we did not carry out our contract. Often it is a working contract, going on from day to day with every kind of possibility for difference of opinion, yet it has not in the least meant that the parties to the contract have not worked in complete harmony. By laying down certain laws saying that people shall not do things, you do not assume that everybody is a criminal. I am not insulted by the fact that there are laws which say we are not to offend against the Ten Commandments. I do not feel that a personal insult, which makes it impossible for me to think of friendly relations with anybody. I hope before we get into these negotiations we can clear our minds of that sort of thing. The noble Lord himself belongs both politically and religiously to bodies which have not hesitated to lay down definite rules of conduct, but I am sure he has had a most enjoyable and upright life in spite of it.
LORD PAKENHAM: The rules to which the noble Viscount refers I have always found most helpful, and perhaps at some time the noble Viscount might like to enjoy them with me. I will not say more except that we all want to see thoroughly good discussions, and I am grateful to the noble Viscount for withdrawing his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Ninth Schedule agreed to.
VISCOUNT SWINTON VISCOUNT SWINTON moved, after the Ninth Schedule, to insert the following new Schedule:
"Description of Iron or Steel Products
1. Iron or steel (including alloy steel) in any of the following forms (and whether or not new or secondhand or prime or defective)—
Pig;
Ingot;
Billet, bloom, slab;
Tinplate bar, sheet bar;
Plate, medium plate, sheet (and whether coated or uncoated);
Angle, channel, tee, joist, piling section, other sectional material (and whether fabricated or not);
Round, rod, square, hexagon, flat, other section and shape (and whether black or bright);
Rail, sleeper, fishplate, soleplate;
Tinplate, tinplate base (uncoated), terne plate, black plate, silver-finished plate;
Hoop, strip (and whether coated or uncoated, and whether hot or cold rolled);
Tube, pipe and standard fittings (not being conduit fittings) therefor;
Tyre, axle, wheel;
Casting, block for forging, block for pressing, forging, drop forging;
Colliery arch, and accessories therefor, pit prop;
Spring;
Wire rod;
Coated or uncoated wire (whether plain or barbed), wire rope, wire strand, wire netting, wire chain link fencing, wire reinforcement fabric mesh, wire rod reinforcement fabric mesh, wire nail, wire staple;
Bolts, nuts, screws, screw studs, washers and rivets.
2. Ferro alloy of any kind.
3. Scrap iron and scrap steel (including alloy steel)."
The noble Viscount said: The last wicket is a genuine child of my own—not that I disliked being associated with the other one. The Committee will remember that in the Clause we inserted after Clause 6 we provided for the establishment of an Iron and Steel Prices Board and subsection (4) of that new clause provided in this connection that the expression "specified products" meant
"iron or steel products of any of the descriptions set out in the Tenth Schedule of this Act and such other descriptions as may be specified in an order of the Minister."
Here is the Tenth Schedule, and I do not expect the Committee will want to discuss it in any detail. Obviously, having passed the new clause, the Schedule must be inserted. May I explain in a word or two what it contains and why it does not contain certain ether things? The Schedule itself is a comprehensive list of iron and steel products as generally understood, and those who are familiar with the control orders about iron and steel prices will see that it is based on the Control of Iron and Steel (No. 62) Order, 1948, the Control of Bolts and Nuts

827
Orders, and the Control of Iron and Steel (Scrap) Orders. "Scrap" is the third in the list. Therefore it does contain, with an exception to which I am coming in a moment, those obvious products of iron and steel which have been the subject of control orders and for which it has been found necessary and desirable to have prices fixed in the past.
I ought to draw the Committee's attention to two notable omissions from the Control of Iron and Steel Order. First, we have deliberately left out iron and manganese and other ores, for the simple reason that the whole of the ore production will be taken over by the Corporation, and, therefore, the price of ore as distinct from the price of ingot steel and pig iron does not come to be determined. The Prices Board will control pig and ingot prices, and so on, and therefore we thought it was unnecessary to include this item. In the same way, cinder and scale used to figure in the control orders, but the Corporation will be the main producer and the main consumer, and therefore price control appears to be unnecessary and it is not included.
There are a certain number of other things like calcium silicide, tungsten metal, and chemical compounds of molybdenum, tungsten or vanadium which, together with carbon electrodes, used to figure in the order. All those will be imported. Both the Corporation and the independent producers will be dependent on external supplies, and it did not seem necessary (to use the phrase which has been so often used in refusing Amendments which we have proposed) to clutter up the Schedule with those items. Subject to that, this Schedule is in conformity with the list which has worked so well in the past. I therefore hope that it will commend itself to your Lordships as a commendable counterpart of the clause already agreed to. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After the Ninth Schedule insert the said new Schedule.—(Viscount Swinton.)
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): I have the great pleasure of speaking to the last Amendment. I recognise that this is an inevitable consequence of the Iron and Steel Prices Board Amendment, as I think the noble Viscount said. We are not in a
828
position to object at the moment but our views remain the same. If the Committee want to know the complexities into which the noble Lords have landed them I commend them to read the noble Viscount's speech. With regard to this Schedule, I have looked at this list (I am a bit of a carpenter myself) and I see that it includes such things as nuts, bolts, screws, screw studs, washers and rivets. But it does not include tintacks, or a number of other things which I have in my workshop. However, the noble Lords have set down and made as good a list as they could, and we are not in a position here to oppose it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
House resumed.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (SUPERANNUATION) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1949
Draft Regulations proposed to be made by the Minister of Health under the National Health Service Act, 1946: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
CIVIL DEFENCE (GENERAL) REGULATIONS, 1949 CIVIL DEFENCE CORPS REGULATIONS, 1949
Draft Regulations [in substitution for the draft Regulations presented on the 31st of May last] proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Civil Defence Act, 1948: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
CIVIL DEFENCE (GENERAL) (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS, 1949 CIVIL DEFENCE CORPS (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS, 1949
Draft Regulations [in substitution for the draft Regulations presented on the 31st of May last] proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for Scotland under the Civil Defence Act, 1948: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (CRARAE) BILL PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (SOUTHWOLD) BILL TEES-SIDE RAILLESS TRACTION BOARD (ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
EDINBURGH AND MIDLOTHIAN WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

SALFORD CORPORATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at twenty-three minutes before seven o'clock.