Sitting of 19 January 1949

Preamble
The House met at Half-past
Two o'Clock

PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  POST OFFICE

    Statutory Instrument No. 562
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to confirm whether S.I., No. 562, 1948, made by him was laid before this House and became subject to the procedure laid down under the Statutory Instruments Act.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Hobson): Statutory Instrument, 1948, No. 562 was made by virtue of the Post Office (Parcels) Act, 1882, which contains no provision for the laying before Parliament of Regulations made thereunder. Consequently the provisions of Section 5 of the Statutory Instruments Act, relating to annulment, had no application. The Statutory Instrument in questionwas not in fact laid before the House and I regret that remarks which I made during the Adjournment Debate on 9th December conveyed a contrary impression.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In thanking the hon. Gentleman for the terms of that very fair and frank reply, may I ask him if he will now acquit hon. Members on this side of the House of the grave charge of not having moved to annul a Government Order?
    Mr. Hobson: Certainly.

    Savings Bank (Removal)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to state when the removal of the Post Office Savings Bank to Sheffield will take place.
    Mr. Hobson: No, Sir; it will be some considerable time before any date can be fixed. So far as can be foreseen at present, the move is unlikely to start within the next 10 years.

    Television (New Transmitters)
    5. Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Postmaster-General when he expects the television transmitter to be in operation in the Birmingham area; and what are his plans for the erection of further transmitters of this type.
    Mr. Hobson: I understand that the B.B.C. expect that the Midland television station will be in operation this autumn. The next station will probably serve South Lancashire and a substantial part of Yorkshire, but it is too early to say when it will be provided.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Minister say why this station has been so long delayed in being installed? Will he bear in mind that in the United States something like 50 transmitter stations are now in operation, and will the Government get a move on and give the people the service they have a right to expect?
    Mr. Hobson: This is actually a relay station, and the question of development has to be considered in relation to the capital investment programme of the Government.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the hon. Member aware that weeks and weeks ago the Minister himself told me that inquiries had been made in different parts of Lancashire and the Pennines with a view to setting up a station? Have any reports been received yet?
    Mr. Hobson: I am not aware of that.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: Will the hon. Gentleman say when he thinks the Birmingham station will be in operation?
    Mr. Hobson: In the autumn. I cannot give a fixed date but we are hoping it will be then.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can my hon. Friend say whether this Birmingham station is supposed to supply Scotland?
    Mr. Hobson: I think the answer to that supplementary question is obvious.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Camp, Pershore (Conditions)
    Mrs. Leah Manningasked the Secretary of State for Air whether in view of the unsatisfactory conditions prevailing at the R.A.F. Camp, Pershore, he proposes to close this camp in the near future.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Arthur Henderson): No, Sir. The complaints brought to my notice by my hon. Friend regarding R.A.F. Station, Pershore, have been investigated and work is in hand which will effect a substantial improvement in the conditions of the camp.
    Mrs. Manning: While thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for the many improvements he has made in this camp, does he not think from the correspondence he has received from myself and from the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) that this camp, prepared during the war, is not really suitable for training men in peace time?
    Mr. Henderson: My difficulty is that a good many of the stations, which we have of necessity to occupy at the present time, were constructed for war purposes. I say quite frankly that in my opinion they are not up to peace-time standards but, until we are able to construct further peace-time permanent stations, I am afraid that we must make use of these war-time camps with any necessary improvements.
    Mr. George Ward: Will the Minister bear in mind that there is a great need for an auxiliary squadron in Worcestershire, and that if he is wondering what to do with Pershore, it would be perfectly suitable for that purpose?

    Discharge Applications
    Mr. Prittasked the Secretary of State for Air how many applications for discharge under AMO 374/48 were made in the 12 months ended December, 1948; how many were granted in all; and how many in the three months ended December, 1948.
    Mr. A. Henderson: The numbers are 2,641, 1,514 and 162.

    Huts, Heckmondwike
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has now agreed to the immediate provision of two huts for the 1428, Heckmondwike and District Squadron, Air Training Corps, as requested over twelve months ago.
    Mr. A. Henderson: Yes, Sir. I have written to my hon. Friend giving him particulars.
    Mr. Sharp: Whilst appreciating the prompt and favourable action taken by my right hon. and learned Friend in this matter since it was brought to his attention, may I ask him if he will impress upon subordinate formations the need for taking prompt action to ensure that A.T.C. units get prompt consideration of their just demands?
    Mr. Henderson: That is certainly my policy as far as possible.

    Deferred Release, Middle East
    Mr. Sharpasked the Secretary of State for Air whether 308330 A/C M.F. Mallinson, 107 M.U., M.E.F., who is a clerk provisioning in Release Group 75, and whose release has been previously deferred, will be returned to the U.K. in time for his demobilisation during January.
    Mr. A. Henderson: I regret that the release of a number of airmen serving in the Midle East, including A.C. Mallinson, will be slightly delayed because of a mechanical breakdown in two of the ships scheduled to bring them home. The best alternative arrangements are being made but, owing to the shortage of shipping, it will, I fear, not be possible to get these airmen home before February.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Avro Tudor Aircraft (Sale)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what was the cost, including alterations, of the 21 Avro Tudor II aircraft which he is selling; at what price he is selling them; and what so far has been the best bid.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): The specification and price of the freighter version of the Avro Tudor have not yet been finally settled.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I ask, in all seriousness, how much longer the Minister is to be allowed to gamble in aeroplanes with the taxpayers' money?

    Missing B.S.A.A. Aircraft
    Air-Commodore Harvey (by Private Notice)asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will make a statement regarding the B.S.A.A. aircraft Star Ariel which is missing on a flight between Bermuda and Kingston, Jamaica.
    Mr. Lindgren: I much regret to inform the House that we must now presume the loss of the British South American Airways Corporation's Tudor IVB aircraft G-AGRE known as "Star Ariel" on a flight from Bermuda to Kingston, Jamaica, on the morning of Monday, 17th January. The machine carried 13 passengers and seven crew.
    Search for the aircraft is continuing, and the full air-sea rescue service, in which we are grateful to have the full co-operation of the United States authorities, is in operation over the whole area.
    I am sure I am expressing the feelings of the Whole House, when on behalf of my noble Friend and myself, I extend profound sympathy to the families of the passengers and crew of the aircraft, of whose survival I am afraid there can now be very little hope.
    A preliminary investigation has already begun and a representative of the Chief Inspector of Accidents left for Bermuda yesterday.
    As a result of this tragic loss, the British South American Airways Corporation have decided that the Tudor IVB shall be suspended from service pending a special investigation of each individual Tudor IV aircraft. My noble Friend is sure that they are taking the right course, and he is taking the necessary steps to see that all available resources are placed at their disposal.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: While I agree with the course taken by the hon. Gentleman's noble Friend, will he not
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    also investigate the accident record of British South American Airways Corporation, which had a crash only two weeks ago involving loss of life?
    Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir.
    Wing-Commander Millington: Can my hon. Friend say what steps have been taken by British South American Airways Corporation as regards the inquiry made into the loss of the Star Tiger?
    Mr. Lindgren: All the recommendations of the Macmillan Report were fully implemented even before the Macmillan Report was made public.

    SOUTH SCHLESWIG
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the many recent cases of actions taken by Germans against Danes in South Schleswig and in particular of the dismissal of several members of the Maschinenbau Aktiengesellschaft, living at Pris and Frederiksort, on account of their membership of the Danish Association; and what action he proposes to take to protect the Danish speaking inhabitants of South Schleswig against intimidation.
    The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): The German firm in question is the successor of a demilitarised firm which formerly employed 229 persons. When de-militarisation and demolitions were completed, 50 employees became redundant, of whom only two were members of the South Schleswig Association.
    The Managing Director of the successor firm has given an assurance that no political discrimination was exercised in the retention or dismissal of employees and his statement appears to be supported by the figures I have given.
    Professor Savory: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have here numerous other cases of threats of dismissal against these people if they do not resign their membership of the South Schleswig Association; and does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that from Kiel, in Holstein, this intimidation has been carried out against these inhabitants of South Schleswig?
    Mr. McNeil: I know that the hon. Gentleman has submitted some details. As my other replies will disclose, however, in all suggestions except one our inquiries did not bear out the submissions.
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Theodor Henningsen, a railway official on pension at Lindaa, South Schleswig, has received notification that, if he and his wife do not resign their membership of the Danish Association, his pension will be withdrawn altogether; and whether he has made a protest to the German local authorities against the persecution of the Danish speaking inhabitants.
    Mr. McNeil: No such notification has been given to this man. I am, however, informed that he was told privately by a railway employee that, in the latter's personal opinion, German officials who had joined the South Schleswig Association might find themselves in an awkward position when the occupation ended.
    Professor Savory: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that these attempts at intimidation are widespread and that it is impossible to deny them because the evidence is overwhelming? Why did His Majesty's Government allow this situation to arise, allow the admission of 300,000 Germans into that country and give them the vote so that they could control almost all the municipalities—men who had nothing whatever to do with Schleswig, who had never been in Schleswig in their lives; why were they given the vote and allowed to swamp the native population?
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Walther Lawætz, for 12 years an official in municipal service in Egernforde, South Schleswig, was dismissed by the Germans because of his membership of the Danish Association; that Mr. Johannesen, an official in municipal service at Osterhever, South Schleswig, has been threatened with dismissal if he does not resign his membership of the Danish Association, and that Fr. Peters, employed in municipal service at Velt, South Schleswig, has also received notice of immediate dismissal if he does not resign his membership of the Danish Association, and whether Great Britain,
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    as the occupying authority, will take action to protect the interests of the native Danish inhabitants of South Schleswig.
    Mr. McNeil: As the answer is long and detailed, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Investigations carried out in Germany indicate that the facts in these three cases are as follow:
    1. Lawœtz.
    Arising from the currency reform in the Western zones, the local government (Kreis) authorities in Eckenforde felt it necessary to serve notice of dismissal on about 40 of their employees. Lawætz who has been employed by these authorities for 3½ years was included in this number and has received six months' notice of dismissal expiring on 31st March, 1949. Only two other members of the South Schleswig Association are included in the list of those who have received notice. There is no evidence to suggest any political motive behind these dismissals, and the local authorities have given an assurance that membership of the South Schleswig Association in no way affected their decision. The small proportion of South Schleswig Association members included in the total number due for dismissal tends to support this assurance.
    2. Johannesen.
    This man is employed as a foreman-labourer by the local authority in Osterhever. One of the labourers reported to the Technical Manager that the other workers wished Johannesen to be dismissed because they disapproved of his belonging to a pro-Danish organisation while being paid by German authorities. The Manager stated that dismissal on these grounds was not warranted. He later informed Johannesen of the request of his fellow workers but stressed that there would be no question of dismissal. This fact is confirmed by Johannesen himself.
    3. Peters.
    This man is employed as a Messenger by the local authority (Gemeinde) of Welt. It is clear that he resigned from the South Schleswig Association because of an intimation from the local Council

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    that he would be dismissed if he did not resign his membership of the Association. Investigations are being made to determine whether there is a case for prosecution or other action against the individual who authorised this ultimatum.

  GERMANY

    Krupps Works (Allocations to U.S.S.R.)
    Mr. Norman Bowerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs under what agreement the Russians have been allowed to dismantle the Borbeck plant at Krupps works at Essen and remove it to Russia.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what grounds the U.S.S.R. is permitted to move munitions plants from the British zone of Germany while her blockade of the Western sectors of Berlin continues.
    Mr. Martin Lindsayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what machinery is being transplanted from the Krupps works in Essen to the U.S.S.R., and by what route.
    Mr. McNeil: Equipment for the production of pig iron and steel in Krupps Borbeck works was allocated to the U.S.S.R. as reparations by agreement of the Control Council on 5th December, 1945. All special purpose equipment for the manufacture of arms had previously been removed and destroyed. The approximate weight of the equipment was 74,500 tons, of which about 72,500 tons has been loaded for despatch by rail to Hamburg and thence by sea to the Soviet Union. No equipment has been allocated to the U.S.S.R. since the beginning of the blockade; but the delivery of the small balance of equipment already allocated to the Soviet Government continued after the blockade of Berlin began because His Majesty's Government did not wish to aggravate a grave situation by themselves breaking agreements to which they were a willing party.
    Mr. Keeling: Has the Minister any reason to think that Russia would be made more friendly to this country by our refraining from imposing a blockade on her while her blockade of us continues?
    Mr. McNeil: It is, of course, untrue to say that we have not imposed a blockade upon her in response to her action. I have already pointed out that no further allocations have taken place or will take place.
    Mr. Keeling: But the deliveries continue.
    Mr. McNeil: But the delivery of a relatively small tonnage—the remainder of a very large contract—we felt we should complete because we were parties to this agreement.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us at what date these deliveries stopped and will he give us an assurance that no further deliveries will take place in future?
    Mr. McNeil: I hope I have made it plain that this remainder has not been stopped. In January some 68,000 tons had already been trans-shipped but as to exactly what amount remains I should not like to be committed. I think it is around 2,000 tons.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is it not rather contradictory to have come to a decision that deliveries are not to be made in all other instances but still to go on delivering in this particular case? Surely, if it is right to decide that no deliveries should be made, no deliveries ought to be made at all?
    Mr. McNeil: I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree that we may be talking about different things. There is a decision to prevent allocation. There is also, with a few exceptions, a standstill in trade movements which we did not seek to make. The real point is that all this tonnage—except, perhaps, for 2,000 or 4,000 tons—was already in train and that it was only that portion which was permitted to move thereafter.
    Mr. Lindsay: Surely, the fact that the balance of deliveries is small is of no consequence at all, and is this not a matter of principle? Surely, this is an act of appeasement and an absolutely monstrous thing that we should continue to deliver these supplies when the blockade of Berlin is imposed against us?
    Mr. McNeil: I do not think it is necessary to prejudge the situation between

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    principle and appeasement. I am already trying to make the point that my right hon. Friend did not wish to prejudge the situation or to precipitate one by withholding what was, I repeat, a minor balance in terms of the total tonnage, but that on the overall attitude we have held firm. We have not attempted to appease by any subsequent negotiations.
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Stanley: But are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that these deliveries are not yet completed and, that they are still being made, and although it might have been quite reasonable in the early days of the blockade, does it not become quite ludicrous when the blockade has lasted for six months?
    Mr. McNeil: This is quite a complicated process. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The stuff is brought to the ground, as I understand it; it is then trans-shipped to Hamburg. My information is that all the considerable tonnage is already at Hamburg. I have given the figures, that at an early date in this month 68,000 tons of the complete 72,000 had already been shipped from Hamburg.
    Mr. Pritt—
    Mr. Lindsay: On a point of Order, I beg to give notice—
    Hon. Members: Order.
    Mr. Speaker: I called the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt).
    Mr. Pritt: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that one vital principle is to keep a contract if we can? Does he not agree that it is wrong to refer to the position in Hamburg as a blockade, as nearly 1,000 tons of supplies are passing through by the freewill of the Soviet authorities every 24 hours, and they can get as much more as they like?
    Mr. McNeil: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for his intervention. I have tried to make it plain that we were attempting to keep to a contract, but it must also be plain that our subsequent attitude had to be altered when it was found that all parties were not keeping to it. I suppose it is literally inaccurate to call it a blockade, but, as has been pointed out, it has the effect of
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    a blockade because only certain supplies are permitted through and then only by specific permission.
    Mr. Lindsay: I beg to give notice that, owing to the intolerable weakness of His Majesty's Government in carrying out this monstrous act of appeasement, I shall raise this question again at the earliest possible moment on the Adjournment.

    Prohibited Books
    Mr. Prittasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the orders made by the British civil governors of the various Länder in Germany with effect from 10th November last, prohibiting the introduction, circulation or possession of, inter alia, all books produced in the Soviet zone of Germany, makes it almost impossible for Germans in the British zone to obtain the works of Feuchtwanger, Thomas Mann, Heinrich Mann, Tucholski, Brecht, Bebel, Liebknecht, Marx and Engels; what is the reason for this restriction on the freedom of reading; and whether he will have it modified.
    Mr. McNeil: I regret that I have not been able to complete my inquiries on this subject. I will communicate further with the hon. and learned Gentleman as soon as possible.

    Bochumer Verein Steel Works (Allocation)
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to which country it is proposed to allocate the Bochumer Verein steel works when their dismantling is accomplished.
    Mr. McNeil: The plant has not yet come up for allocation.
    Mr. Scott-Elliot: Is not my right hon. Friend aware how highly unpopular this dismantling is among the people of the Ruhr, and will he think again about the matter before proceeding further with it?

    Air Lift
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the average tonnage of food, fuel and other supplies imported into Berlin by means of the air lift; and what is the corresponding tonnage of exports.
    Mr. McNeil: During December 4,476 short tons were brought in daily and 293 brought out. During the first half of January the corresponding figures were 5,634 and 249 short tons.
    Mr. Henry Usborne: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House approximately how much it costs per ton to deliver these goods into Berlin?

    Polish Children (Repatriation)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Polish children are in the Western Zone of Germany; what steps are being taken to repatriate them; and how many were repatriated during 1948.
    Mr. McNeil: The figure on 31st August, 1948, was 43,748 in the British zone. Almost all of these are with parents, but the total includes approximately 130 "unaccompanied" children, that is orphans and children whose parents have not yet been traced. Children are repatriated only with the consent of their parents or legal guardians, except for unaccompanied children, who are repatriated on the authority of the Military Governor, and for whom repatriation is recommended and authorised unless it is considered to be contrary to the interests of the individual child. The task of tracing children is being continued by the International Refugee Organisation with every possible assistance from the zonal authorities. During 1948,926 accompanied and 109 unaccompanied children left the British zone for Poland.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: Can the Minister tell us how many Polish citizens in the last two months have been forcibly moved from Poland to the interior of Soviet Russia?
    Major Guy Lloyd: Can the Minister say how many of the parents of the children referred to have disappeared since Russia's so-called liberation of Poland?
    Mr. Usborne: Who actually decides whether it is in the interests of the child concerned that he be repatriated or not?
    Mr. McNeil: The legal decision is taken by the Military Governor; no one else can take it. I should make it plain that the Military Governor is advised by the Welfare Board of the International Refugee Organisation.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does the child have any say in the matter?
    Mr. Piratin: Is there a representative of the Polish Government on the Welfare Board to give advice?
    Mr. McNeil: I should think that it is unlikely. My recollection is that the Polish Government, for reasons no doubt acceptable to themselves, refuse to join this international organisation.

    INDONESIA (SECURITY COUNCIL)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the British representative on the Security Council abstained from voting on the resolution calling on the Netherlands Government to release the Indonesian Ministers from captivity.
    Mr. McNeil: My hon. Friend appears to be under a misapprehension. The United Kingdom representative on the Security Council did not, in fact, abstain from voting for the resolution calling for the release of Republican leaders by the Dutch. He voted for the resolution of 24th December calling for a cease fire, a report from the Committee of Good Offices, and the release of political prisoners by the Dutch. This resolution called on the Dutch inter alia
    "immediately to release the President and other political prisoners arrested since 18th December,"
    and was duly passed by the Security Council.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what instructions he has issued to the British representative in the Security Council regarding his future attitude to the Dutch military action in Indonesia; and if he will make a statement on the present situation.
    Mr. McNeil: I am arranging to make available in the Library a telegraphic summary of Sir A. Cadogan's speech in the Security Council on 14th January, which was made in accordance with the instructions sent to him. As regards the second part of the Question, the present situation is that, on 14th January, the Netherlands delegate on the Security Council outlined a programme for the setting up of an interim government in Indonesia and for holding elections,

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    leading to the transfer of sovereignty to the United States of Indonesia in 1950. According to a recent report from Java, the Council of Indonesian Federalists has appointed a committee to make contact with Republican personalities, to include, amongst others, Messrs. Sukarno, Hatta and Sharir.
    Mr. Driberg: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the serious repercussions of this situation throughout Asia, as shown by the Delhi conference which opens tomorrow, and of the danger that a situation may develop in which the Asiatic Powers may seem to be lined up in hostility to the Western European Powers generally? Will His Majesty's Government use their influence with the Dutch to prevent the development of such a situation?
    Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend is aware of the danger to which my hon. Friend draws our attention, and His Majesty's Government will continue to use their influence to prevent that happening.
    Mr. Bramall: Is it not clear that the Dutch have carried out neither of the Security Council's instructions? They have neither withdrawn their troops nor set at liberty the political prisoners. Is it not just as important that the authority of the Security Council should be upheld in Indonesia as in Palestine?
    Mr. McNeil: The first part of the question cannot be answered by a simple "Yes" or "No." Regarding the second part, I agree it was not complied with. I would also point out that the representative of the Netherlands Government has already apologised, and agreed that this was dreadful and inexcusable behaviour.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the example of Hyderabad may have influenced the Dutch Government in this matter?

  HUNGARY

    Cardinal Mindszenty (Arrest)
    Mr. Leslie Haleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of the terms of the Human Rights clause in the Treaty of Peace with Hungary, he proposes to appoint an official observer to attend the forthcoming trial of Cardinal Mindszenty.
    Mr. McNeil: As no arrangements for the trial of Cardinal Mindszenty have been announced, this question does not yet arise. I will, however, bear my hon. Friend's suggestion in mind.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Can the right hon. Gentleman give a little more definite assurance on this vital matter, which affects the human conscience, that they will do more than bear the matter in mind and will take some positive action?
    Mr. Hale: In view of the very widespread concern among His Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects—[HON. MEMBERS: "And others."]—about the circumstances of the trial of this very high ecclesiastical dignitary on a political charge, will my right hon. Friend do his best to see that the fullest information about the circumstances is made available in the country and that a careful watch is kept on the procedure?
    Mr. McNeil: As far as lies in our power to see that information is made available for publication, I am most glad to give that assurance.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept the statement that not only are Roman Catholics interested in this, but every branch of the Christian Church and every other church as well?
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: In view of the Prime Minister's explanation the other day about the Declaration of Human Rights, does my right hon. Friend consider that there is any difference between the binding effects of such a Declaration on Hungary and on this country?
    Mr. McNeil: My hon. Friend is unwittingly confused. This does not refer to that Declaration, but to a Treaty obligation which the country in question accepted.
    Mr. Haleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the terms of the Human Rights clause in the Treaty of Peace with Hungary, he has received any report from the British Embassy in Hungary relating to the circumstances of the arrest of Cardinal Mindszenty.
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what protest he has made to the Hungarian Government, under the Human

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    Rights clause of the Peace Treaty, at the arrest of Cardinal Mindszenty; what reply has been received from them; and what further action is contemplated through the United Nations organisation on this violation of the promise to maintain religious freedom embodied in the Atlantic Charter.
    Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend has received numerous reports from His Majesty's Minister at Budapest about the arrest of Cardinal Mindszenty. His Majesty's Government have not protested officially to the Hungarian Government nor do they contemplate action through the United Nations organisation because His Majesty's Government have no reason to believe that either of these courses would lead to the Cardinal's release. I am glad, however, to express the profound disapproval of His Majesty's Government of this action of the Hungarian Government and to urge them both to release the Prince Primate and to have, in all matters, that respect for the freedoms which they have accepted by their treaty obligations.
    Sir P. Hannon: Can the Minister justify the attitude of the Government in not making a protest to the Hungarian Government at this gross assault on a distinguished member of the Christian Church? Do they propose to take any further action to bring to the notice of the whole Christian world the indignity inflicted upon this Catholic representative of all Christian religion in Western Europe?
    Mr. McNeil: His Majesty's Government have every sympathy with the outspoken indignation of the hon. Member. Unfortunately, this is by no means our first experience of comparable cases. We have no reason to believe, even more unfortunately, that protests of this kind are effective, but His Majesty's Government will continue to keep in closest contact with the subject and to take any action they think appropriate, or likely to be effective.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What is the difference between censuring the Hungarian Government—and rightly censuring them—from that Box and making a formal protest in Budapest? Would not the latter be the preferable alternative and the most effective?
    Mr. McNeil: I was asked about two courses, of which one, the more laborious, and not very speedy process was through the United Nations.
    Mr. Logan: Viewing the matter from the point of view of Christianity as a whole, is it not possible for our Government to make a protest—everybody in the country is talking about it?
    Mr. Gallacher: While I appreciate and understand the attitude of hon. Members towards the arrest of this cardinal, if the right hon. Gentleman is making representations, will he also make representations to the American Government about the arrest of 12 Communist leaders who are charged with political beliefs and there is no question of an overt act?
    Mr. McNeil: There are these differences. The American charges are publically specified and the men are being publicly heard according to the canons of well known law. Secondly, we have no locus in the United States, but we have a locus as a joint signatory to a Treaty with the Hungarian Government which Communists there and in some other countries have run away from every time that civil liberty has been assailed.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: In view of the right hon. Gentleman's last reply, will he bear in mind the opinions expressed in this House and make a protest to the Hungarian Government embodying the terms of his answer given in this House this afternoon?
    Mr. McNeil: I will certainly bring to the attention of my right hon. Friend the representations made this afternoon.
    Mr. Paget: Is there not something to be said for hearing the evidence first?

    British Student (Expulsion)
    Commander Nobleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a British student holding a year's Hungarian Government scholarship was summarily told to leave Hungary after only six weeks in the country, without any reasons being given; and what action he has taken in this matter.
    Mr. McNeil: Yes, Sir. It is, of course, within the rights of the Hungarian Government to expel any foreigner from their country and there seems, therefore,

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    to be no legal ground for an official protest. My right hon. Friend nevertheless deplores their arbitrary expulsion, at the shortest notice, without specifying a reason, of a British student to whom they had just awarded a State Scholarship for one year.
    Commander Noble: Does the Minister's answer mean that His Majesty's representatives in Budapest made no inquiries or protests when this was reported to them by the student?
    Mr. McNeil: Inquiries were made.

    DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATIVES (INSTRUCTIONS)
    Mr. Hollisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what instructions have been given to His Majesty's diplomatic representatives abroad warning them not to consort with reactionary elements in the countries to which they are accredited; and what definition has been given of the term "reactionary."
    Mr. McNeil: It is true that guidance was given to certain of our diplomatic representatives that they should be chary of accepting as reputable organisations whose primary distinction was that they were anti-Communist. The Oxford Dictionary defines "reactionary" as politically retrograde, and I would not seek to improve on that.
    Mr. Hollis: Can the right hon. Gentleman make it clear whether he called the attention of representatives abroad to the sense in which he was using the word "reactionary," or not?
    Mr. McNeil: I should think that is the normal use of the word accepted by all except those who feel a little guilty about its use.
    Mr. Molson: Is it not the case that in the opinion of many people those to whom representatives are accredited regard the Foreign Secretary as an instrument of reaction?
    Mr. Michael Foot: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Department are considering issuing instructions to members of the Foreign Office to refrain from associating with reactionary elements in this country as well?

    PALESTINE (JEWISH STATE)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultation there was between His Majesty's Government and the Canadian Government before the latter decided to recognise de facto the State of Israel; and, in view of the step taken by the Canadian Government, whether he will now review his attitude and take similar measures.
    Mr. McNeil: His Majesty's Government and the Canadian Government have been in continuous contact on the subject of Palestine, and His Majesty's Government were informed by the Canadian Government of the latter's intention before recognition was granted. With regard to the attitude of His Majesty's Government I have nothing to add to the reply given yesterday to a Question by my hon. Friend, the Member for North Salford (Mr. McAdam).
    Mr. Piratin: Is it the Minister's intention to wait until the last member of the United Nations has recognised the State of Israel before he does so? Is it not also the case that the unfortunate events of the last two days might have been obviated had there been any common understanding between the two sides, and had an attempt been made to reach such an understanding?
    Squadron-Leader Flemingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now make a statement regarding His Majesty's Government's non-recognition of Israel.
    Mr. McNeil: I have at present nothing to add to the reply given yesterday to a Question by my hon. Friend, the Member for North Salford.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Can we hope that before very long the Government will take the honourable step of recognising the State of Israel, as has been done by other countries?
    Mr. Crawley: On a point of Order. I do not wish to raise a stink but in the last quarter of an hour there has been a strong smell of burning oil in this quarter of the House and we feel, Mr. Speaker, that we ought to bring the matter to your attention.
    Mr. Speaker: I will have inquiries made and see if I can get it stopped.
    Mr. Stanley: Has it anything to do with inflammatory opinions held by certain Members behind the Government Front Bench?

    MISSING AIRCRAFT, MIDDLE EAST
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now state the result of the inquiries concerning the shooting down of the Mosquito aircraft in the Eastern Mediterranean area on 20th November. 1948.
    Mr. McNeil: An interim report has been received from the Acting Mediator. He has not yet succeeded in establishing the facts of the incident, but his staff have expressed the view that the loss of the aircraft may have been due to an accident. His Majesty's Government have asked the Acting Mediator to undertake further investigations.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if any high level reconnaissances took place since this date. 20th November, 1948?

    FIJI (COURT OF APPEAL)
    Mr. Prittasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will take steps to expedite the establishment of a Court of Appeal to deal with cases in Fiji, thus avoiding such delays as that which occurred in the case of Mr. Joseph, who waited in prison for two years until the Privy Council allowed his appeal and quashed his conviction.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): I have now been informed by the Governor that a draft Bill is under consideration in Fiji for the establishment of a Court of Appeal in the Colony.

    COLONIAL EXHIBITION, LONDON
    Sir Ralph Glynasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement regarding the impending Colonial Exhibition; and what body has been charged with the preparation of this undertaking.
    Mr. Creech Jones: As part of a campaign to increase public knowledge of the Colonies, arrangements are being made for a Colonial Exhibition to be staged on behalf of the Colonial Office by the Central Office of Information at their Exhibition Hall, Oxford Street, for six weeks from the third week of June next. The Exhibition will present a general picture of the Colonies and is designed particularly to show the relationship between Great Britain and the Colonies.
    Sir R. Glyn: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether special steps are to be taken to bring the Colonial Governments themselves into this Exhibition, or is it to be entirely organised by the Colonial Office here?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There will be the closest consultation with Colonial Governments and I might say that if hon. Members have any suggestions that they would like to sec embodied in the Exhibition I should be very happy to receive them.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend arrange for this Exhibition to tour the main provincial centres after its period in London?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That presents some difficulty. The point will be considered.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman make certain that a small space is reserved to show the progress of the groundnut scheme?
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: Will the Minister consider finding a more suitable and attractive building for this Exhibition? He may be aware that one of the reasons why the recruiting campaign failed was because his right hon. Friend held his exhibition in this appalling place?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That point is under consideration at the moment. We are anxious to get a very much bigger site.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: While there may be difficulty in sending this Exhibition to the provinces, will there be any difficulty in sending it to the capital of Scotland?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That will be considered.

    INDUSTRY (OPERATIONAL RESEARCH)
    Sir P. Hannonasked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the policy of His Majesty's Government on the continuity of operational research applied to industry; if details are available of the number of industries which have undertaken operational research activities; and if he will give an assurance that the departments concerned will extend every encouragement to firms anxious to develop operational research within their respective organisations.
    The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): It is the policy of His Majesty's Government to encourage all scientific activities which contribute to increasing the productivity and efficiency of industry. Operational research, I am told, is a term given in the recent war to the use of the scientific method for obtaining data on which executive decisions can be based. It has been employed by progressive firms in many industries for a number of years; I cannot say how many, but there is certainly room for more of it. I have had a full report on its possibilities from a Panel of the Committee on Industrial Productivity.
    Several of the co-operative research associations, in particular the Cotton Research Association, the Iron and Steel Research Association and the Boot, Shoe and Allied Trades Research Association are doing well with it, and with the general expansion of facilities since the war, other research associations are already carrying out, or are planning, similar work. I am, therefore, happy to give the assurance which the hon. Member asks for in the last part of his Question.
    Sir P. Hannon: On the general question, is the Lord President satisfied that research work now in relation to industry is receiving the full support of His Majesty's Administration?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir.

    IMBER TRAINING AREA (SAFETY MEASURES)
    Mr. Grimstonasked the Minister of Defence if he is aware that information has been received of his intention to use
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    the Imber Training Area for experimental and research purposes which do not appear to fall within the assurances as regards safety, which he gave to the hon. Member for Westbury on 5th May last; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): There has been no change in the purposes for which the training area will be used. The assurances given in my statement of 5th May last hold good.
    Mr. Grimston: May it be taken, therefore, that no live bombs will be dropped in this area?
    Mr. Alexander: I think not, beyond what were contemplated in the original assurance which was given. I think perhaps the inquiry of the hon. Member comes from the recent statement about the flash experiments that may be carried out, but I am assured that there is no change from the assurance originally given.
    Mr. Grimston: Does not the Minister of Defence recollect that in reply to a supplementary question he gave me a specific assurance that no live bombs would be dropped in this area, and can I take it from his reply, although it is somewhat woolly, that it is still the case that no live bombs will be dropped?
    Mr. Alexander: No live bombs are being dropped, but I did not want to convey the impression this afternoon that there were no live ammunition experiments.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Old People's Party, Oldham
    Mr. Haleasked the Minister of Food whether he has considered the application sent to him for a special ration of meat for the old people's party to which 8,000 persons of over 70 years of age have been invited, to be held in connection with the Oldham centenary celebrations; and whether he is prepared to grant a special ration.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I am sorry, but we could only make special allowances of meat for parties, even when they are for old people, at the expense of the domestic ration. And I think it would be wrong to do that.
    Mr. Hale: Will the Minister bear in mind that special permission was given for the importation of meat for the Lord Mayor's banquet, and that this is a historic ocasion in the history of a town that has made a unique contribution to our industrial effort; further, if the real reason is that the meat is not available here, would he give me a licence to import it from friends in Australia so that these people can have this very special and historic privilege and can participate in it?
    Mr. Strachey: I do not think that it is a question of a special import licence. Of course, allowances of rationed foodstuffs are made for these occasions but I am afraid that no allowance of meat is made. After all, this is a tea.
    Mr. Hale: In these circumstances would my right hon. Friend give permission for application to be made abroad individually for meat to be sent for this occasion.
    Mr. Osborne: Is not the hon. Member pointing out the benefits of individual buying as against bulk purchase?

    Fish Friers (Hot Drinks)
    Mr. C. S. Taylorasked the Minister of Food whether he will now permit fish friers to serve hot drinks with fried fish.
    Mr. Strachey: Fish friers may serve hot drinks made from unrationed or uncontrolled foods such as coffee or meat essences; but for allocations of rationed foods they have to apply, like anyone else.
    Mr. Taylor: Is this a new regulation or the relaxation of a regulation by the Minister, or have fish friers always been allowed to serve hot drinks?
    Mr. Strachey: It is a change in the regulation.
    Mr. Driberg: If coffee is served, must it be served without milk and sugar, or are allocations of them granted on application.
    Mr. Strachey: They may be granted.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the true tradition in Lancashire in this matter is not to have hot drinks with fried fish but lemonade.

    Jam (Derationing)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the fact that jam has been derationed since 5th December, 1948, he will now make some reduction in the staff of his Department, with special regard to the checking side of his Department's office in Oxford.
    Mr. Strachey: Of the nine clerks employed at Oxford on checking returns only three are being retained, to deal with table jellies, mincemeat and imported honey, which are still rationed under the points scheme. Jam rationing made only part-time demands on other staff, but its ending will help us in our successful efforts to reduce the total numbers employed on food control.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware how very hard I have worked for the de-rationing of jam, and can we not understand that there will be a substantial reduction of redundant staff at Oxford in the immediate future? Why retain them part-time when there is nothing for them to do?
    Mr. Strachey: Six of the nine clerks are not being retained.
    Mr. De la Bère: I do not want six. I want to get rid of 6,000 of these redundant people.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether it is still his policy to advise jam manufacturers to refrain, as far as possible, from seeking or accepting new bakery customers, in view of the fact that the consumer demand, freed from the restrictions of rationing, has now had adequate time to settle down.
    Mr. Strachey: I think I can now leave jam manufacturers to use their own discretion in this matter.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware that I am very glad that he can leave something to the discretion of the manufacturers, because they know better than he does how to deal with these matters?
    Mr. Strachey: And better than the hon. Member, if I may say so.

    Gift Parcels
    Mr. John Hyndasked the Minister of Food whether he is yet in a position

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    to state his decision concerning the inclusion of de-rationed foodstuffs in parcels to Europe.
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Toothasked the Minister of Food whether he will now make a statement about sending parcels containing foodstuffs, which have been taken off the ration to friends in Europe.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Food why parcels of unrationed food can be sent abroad by commercial or air freight but not by post.
    Mr. Strachey: The present regulations permit rationed foods only to be sent out of this country in gift parcels, except very occasionally under Board of Trade licence. I appreciate that many people may want to send small quantities of unrationed foods to their friends overseas, and that it is particularly hard not to be able to send foods which have recently come off the ration. Yet we cannot afford to send out freely unrationed foods which are cheap and easily obtainable here for fear of their re-sale at a high profit in, for example, certain European countries.
    I propose, therefore from 1st February next, to allow up to 2 lb. of unrationed food to be included in any gift parcel which also contains at least 4 lb. of rationed food or soap. In future, as at present, these parcels must not weigh more than 7 lb. altogether nor contain more than 2 lb. of any one food. Similar arrangements will be made for organisations which collect food gifts to send abroad for relief purposes.
    Mr. Keeling: Can the Minister answer Question No. 60? Can he explain why the Board of Trade issued a licence for a small parcel of unrationed food to be sent by air or sea, but not by post?
    Mr. Strachey: It is within the discretion of that Department, in consultation with my own, to allow the export of food parcels.
    Mr. Keeling: Why not by post, then?
    Mr. Hynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply will give great satisfaction to many generous-hearted people throughout the country?

    SOAP ALLOWANCE (DISPENSERS)
    Mr. C. S. Taylorasked the Minister of Food whether he will consider granting an additional soap allowance for the use of persons working in a pharmacist's shop, who constantly have to handle drugs.
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir; I am glad to say that now that we have a little more soap I have arranged for an allowance to be granted on application for all dispensers in chemists' shops.

    MIDDLE EAST (R.A.F. RECONNAISSANCE FLIGHTS)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement concerning the shooting down of five R.A.F. aircraft in Palestine; and what instructions were given to the aircrews prior to the flights.
    Mr. A. Henderson: I will, with the permission of Mr. Speaker, make a statement at the end of Questions.
    Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will make a statement as to the circumstances in which the Press were notified by the R.A.F. authorities of the death of 3051236 Pilot Officer David Crossley Tattersfield before his parents had been informed.
    Mr. A. Henderson: A telegram informing Pilot Officer Tattersfield's parents that their son was missing and believed killed was despatched at 11.49 a.m. and delivered at 4.15 p.m. on Sunday, 9th January. No such information was given by my Department to the Press until 5.37 p.m. I am advised that Mr. and Mrs. Tattersfield's address, which enabled the Press to approach them, was probably obtained from a message which originated with an Israeli spokesman in Tel Aviv and was received by the Press at 1.49 p.m. on Sunday.
    I am sure the House will join me in sympathy with Mr. and Mrs. Tattersfield in the loss of their son and in the regrettable circumstances in which it was made known to them.
    Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will order a public inquiry to take place into the

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    circumstances in which 3051236 Pilot Officer David Crossley Tattersfield lost his life.
    Mr. A. Henderson: No, Sir, but a court of inquiry is being convened as laid down by King's Regulations.
    Mr. Blackburn: Without trying to anticipate the Minister's statement after Questions, which obviously bears upon this subject, may I ask if he will make sure that this court of inquiry will be open to the public and that if the parents of Pilot Officer Tattersfield wish to be represented facilities will be given to them?
    Mr. Henderson: I will certainly give the most sympathetic consideration to the suggestion of my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many aerial reconnaissance flights British aeroplanes have made in the past two months over territory in Palestine occupied by the Jewish forces.
    Mr. A. Henderson: I have been asked to reply. No reconnaissance flights by British aircraft have been made in the past two months exclusively over territory in Palestine occupied by the Jewish forces. High level reconnaissance flights, usually at 30,000 feet, have been carried out since the end of the war over all the main Middle East areas as part of our peace-time operational training programme. Since the Security Council truce in June and the placing of a complete embargo on the supply of military materials to Palestine and all the Arab countries, these flights were continued with the knowledge of the United Nations Mediator. Information regarding breaches of the truce by either side was a matter of importance both to the Mediator and to His Majesty's Government. Twenty such flights which passed over Palestine have been carried out in the last two months.
    Mr. Davies: Was my right hon. and learned Friend always aware of these reconnaissance flights? Secondly, can reconnaissance flights be made on the instructions of the Foreign Office without the Secretary of State for Air being aware of that fact?
    Mr. Henderson: The question of these reconnaissance flights to which I have referred in my reply is entirely a matter for the local Air Commander-in-Chief, and it is well within his discretion.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is my right hon. and learned Friend telling the House that since the date upon which the Security Council asked that no forces should be sent into this area we have been sending aeroplanes on reconnaissance flights two or three times a week for two months?
    Mr. Henderson: My hon. Friend can work out the number per week in relation to the total number of flights in this period. If it works out at two or three per week, that is the case.
    Mr. Stanley: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman seriously mean that after the troubles arose in Palestine this Summer the decision as to reconnaissance over Palestine, and that part occupied by Israel, was a matter solely for the decision of the local commander, and was not one in which the authority of London had to be sought?
    Mr. Henderson: I said that this type of reconnaissance flight was carried out before the troubles began in the middle of last year, and they were certainly continued. There was, as I said, no Ministerial authority given because they were carried out within the discretion of the Commander-in-Chief, Middle East.
    Mr. Stanley: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman mean to say that after British troops evacuated Palestine no fresh directives were given to the Commanders in the Middle East, and that the discretion was left to them in exactly the same way as it was when Palestine was a British mandated country?
    Mr. Henderson: Yes, Sir. That is the position.
    Mr. Piratin: In view of the fact that the British Government have not been very friendly with the Israeli Government was the Israeli Government informed that these reconnaissance planes were operating over their territory, even if that were done with the understanding of the United Nations Mediator?
    Mr. Henderson: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman make quite clear to the House whether any of these reconnaissance flights were undertaken on instructions from the United Nations to our own Government?
    Mr. Henderson: I am not suggesting that we were carrying out the instructions of the United Nations. I am saying that the benefit of these flights—the results—were conveyed to the United Nations.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Were we asked to do so by the United Nations?
    Mr. Henderson: Not so far as I am aware.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts: Were these armed reconnaissance flights or not?
    Mr. Henderson: No. The photographic reconnaissance machines are unarmed.
    Mr. Stanley: At any rate, have fresh instructions now been sent that these reconnaissances are not to be carried out merely at the discretion of the local Commander, and if so when were those new instructions conveyed?
    Mr. Henderson: I would like notice as regards the date, but I can say definitely that these flights have been stopped.
    Mr. Austin: Is it true that the information gained by R.A.F. reconnaissance flights was passed on to the Egyptian Air Force headquarters with a view to its being used in further combat?
    Mr. Henderson: I should prefer to have that Question put down.
    Sir Peter Macdonald: Is it a fact, as stated by one of the pilots who was shot down, that his guns were loaded at the time he was shot down, because that absolutely contradicts the statement which the Secretary of State has made that reconnaissance planes carried only cameras.
    Mr. Henderson: I am afraid there is a misunderstanding. The reply I have given today deals with the high altitude long distance photographic reconnaissance. The statement to which the hon. Member has referred is one alleged to have been made by one of the pilots who was shot down on 7th January, when he was engaged on a tactical reconnaissance—a short distance reconnais
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    sance. I will deal with those incidents in the statement which I shall make at the end of Questions.
    Mr. Pritt: Would the Secretary of State answer the Question which he was asked a little earlier whether, although these flights were within the discretion of the Air Officer Commanding out there, the Foreign Office have anything to do with the carrying out of these flights?
    Mr. Henderson: I would prefer that Question to be put down to the Foreign Office.
    Mr. A. R. W. Low: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman answer this question? Was he kept informed after the expiration of the Mandate in May of last year that these flights were in fact taking place? Was he kept informed on each occasion that a flight took place, or once per month?
    Mr. Henderson: No, Sir, I was not personally kept informed. The results of these reconnaissances which, as I say, were carried on for a considerable time in the Middle East as a matter of routine, as a part of the peace-time operational training programme—
    Mr. Stanley: That was when Palestine was a mandated country.
    Mr. Henderson: —the results, as 1 have said in my reply, were conveyed to the United Nations Mediator, and I have no doubt that the results were received in the Foreign Office.
    Mr. Harold Davies: On a point of information. The Minister has already said that he prefers this Question to be put down to the Foreign Office. It was for that specific reason that I addressed the original Question to the Foreign Office, and the Minister has informed this House that he is now answering for the Foreign Office. May I have an explanation of that?
    Mr. Henderson: This Question asked for the number of reconnaissances that took place. It is for me, as Air Minister, to reply, and I have done so.
    Mr. Wadsworth: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether the reconnaissance planes were protected at all with fighters?
    Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. This type of reconnaissance is conducted on practically every occasion by one machine flying at a very high altitude, say 30,000 feet, and they take what are called vertical photographs, as against oblique photographs taken by the low-flying fighting machines.
    Mr. Paget: Is it not a fact that these planes were being used by the Foreign Office without reference to the Air Ministry?
    Mr. Stanley: Is it not a fact that some months ago one of our planes on one of these reconnaissances was shot down near Tel Aviv? Did not the right hon. and learned Gentleman then regard the matter as no longer a question of routine and issue fresh instructions as to these reconnaissances?
    Mr. Henderson: Yes, in the light of an actual incident one might have been very well advised to take further action—
    Mr. Stanley: But did the right hon. and learned Gentleman take it?
    Mr. Henderson: Yes, I have already said that these flights have been stopped.
    Mr. Stanley: But when?
    Mr. Henderson: Following the report of this incident over Tel Aviv. It is quite clear, if I may say so, that the House is confused over the two types of reconnaissance. The reconnaissances that took place on 7th January are not included in this reply. This reply only deals with what is called photographic reconnaissances.
    Mr. Pritt: On a point of Order. Could we have your direction, Sir? The Question was put down to the Foreign Office and not transferred, but answered by the right hon. and learned Gentleman on behalf of the Foreign Office. In those circumstances is it right that he should say in reply to a supplementary question that he would like it put down to the Foreign Office, when he has the representative of the Foreign Office sitting at his left hand?
    Mr. Speaker: I have no control over how a Minister answers Questions. That is not my province at all.
    Mr. Harold Davies: On a point of Order. I would like to point out that the word "reconnaissance" is a comprehensive term, and when I put the
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    Question down I wanted information of reconnaissances, whether the reconnaissance was high or whether it was low, or whether it was within 12 miles of Tel Aviv. I think the House is entitled to an answer in accordance with the ratio of its intelligence.
    Mr. Blackburn: Further to that point of Order. May I point out that the hon. Member opposite and myself, who had constituents killed in one of these operations, had put down Questions previously and refrained from asking any supplementary questions on them, because we understand that there is to be a statement after Questions. It is somewhat embarrassing to have that statement anticipated.
    Mr. Henderson: I want to make it quite clear that the Question asked for information about reconnaissances which have been made over territory in Palestine occupied by Jewish forces. The answer to that is that no reconnaissances have been made over Jewish territory, except as I said in my reply.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that we had better await the statement before further questions are put now.
    At the end of Questions—
    Mr. A. Henderson: Towards the end of December, reports were received that Jewish forces had crossed the Egyptian frontier. It was clear that these raised serious questions for us in view of our Treaty obligations and our vital interest in the Middle East. As United Nations observers were prevented by the Jewish authorities from moving to the front, it was essential to obtain independent confirmation of the fact and extent of Jewish incursion into Egypt. As there was no other means of obtaining accurate information, R.A.F. aircraft were, therefore, sent on reconnaissance flights.
    On the two first reconnaissances made on 30th December, Egyptian aircraft accompanied R.A.F. aircraft but did not take part in subsequent reconnaissances. All the flights took place with the knowledge of the Egyptian authorities. The decision to send these reconnaissance flights was taken on His Majesty's Government's responsibility, but, in addition, in conversations which His Majesty's Ambassador in Washington had with the American State Department

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    at the end of the year, the urgent need for precise information on this subject was clear to both sides. The information obtained by these reconnaissances was made available to the U.S. Government, who were aware of the means by which the information was obtained.
    The reconnaissance on 30th December established that Jewish forces had reached the area of Abu Aweigla, which is approximately 17 miles inside Egyptian territory. This was confirmed by reconnaissances on the 1st, 2nd and 4th. A further reconnaissance on the 6th revealed fresh incursion in strength into Egyptian territory. Consequently, on the morning of the 7th, a tactical reconnaissance of four Spitfires was ordered. The timing of the reconnaissance was chosen in consultation with the Egyptian Air Force to minimise the risk of encounter with Egyptian aircraft. Four aircraft were briefed, two for reconnaissance, two for cover, and were given the following orders: the Palestine-Egyptian frontier not to be crossed; aircraft not to make hostile approach or fire on any other aircraft unless our aircraft were being attacked; the time over area where land operations were progressing to be limited to the minimum to lessen risk of incident; known anti-aircraft positions were given. Simultaneously, a high photographic reconnaissance by one Mosquito escorted by four Tempests was ordered with the same briefing as for the tactical reconnaissance.
    The tactical reconnaissance was executed as ordered. Tactics were to fly at best height to minimise risk from ground fire, but flying lower as necessary for identification. The leader of the formation (Flying Officer Cooper) reports that after turning west from the reconnaissance along the Rafah-El Auja road, he felt his aircraft being hit and saw his number two (Pilot II Close) climb up steeply and bale out from his aircraft, which was on fire. He saw him land safely at a position 10 miles inside Egyptian territory.
    After this, the leader himself was attacked by aircraft of the Spitfire type with red spinners similar to those of his own squadron. After a turning engagement, in which the Jewish aircraft had the advantage of height, he was wounded and his aircraft hit. He continued to climb to 9,000 feet, when, his aircraft
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    being uncontrollable, he baled out, landing in a position over 15 miles west of the frontier. This pilot's statement is confirmed by the finding and identification by an R.A.F. search party of parts of all four British Spitfires within a three-mile radius of a point 13 miles west of the frontier.
    As far as can be judged pending full investigation by a court of inquiry, it appears that Jewish aircraft dived on the top pair, shooting them down at once. One of the lower pair was shot down by ground fire and the other damaged by ground fire, and subsequently attacked by fighters.
    All the evidence is that this formation did not cross the frontier and that the pilots were captured by Jewish troops some ten miles inside Egyptian territory. Moreover, there are landmarks, such as the loop of the El Auja—Rafah road and the road itself, a road block south of Rafah and Rafah itself, all in Egyptian territory. The high photographic reconnaissance was executed without incident.
    In the afternoon, a further tactical reconnaissance of four Spitfires was ordered to carry out the same reconnaissance as in the morning, and to look out for crashed aircraft on the outward and homeward routes in search of the Spitfires missing from the morning sortie. In view of the possibility that the fate of the missing aircraft might have been due to hostile action by Jewish aircraft over Egyptian territory, two formations of Tempests were ordered to provide cover for the Spitfires at 6,000 and 10,000 feet respectively.
    When turning west over Rafah railway station, the leader saw five aircraft diving steeply on to his section. As a result of this, the leader at once ordered his section to break to starboard and keep turning. In this initial attack, one Tempest was shot down and finally crashed on the Palestine side of the border, and we now know that the pilot was killed. Three other Tempests were hit and slightly damaged. The top cover, seeing aircraft diving on to the lower Tempest formation, chased the attacking aircraft, having left one section to remain as cover. The hostile aircraft flew back over the border where our aircraft could not follow.

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    As I have said, in all these incidents, R.A.F. aircraft were instructed not to cross the frontier, and not to make a hostile approach or open fire on any other aircraft unless it was quite certain that our aircraft were being attacked. These instructions were given to minimise as far as possible the risk of a clash. In the event, these instructions placed our pilots at a grave disadvantage when aircraft, which had obtained a tactically superior position, made an unprovoked and surprise attack on them.
    The risks were fully appreciated by the Air Commander-in-Chief, but in view of the fact that air reconnaissance was the only means available of ascertaining quickly the true facts regarding the incursion into Egyptian territory, I consider he was justified. In these operations, the lives of two Royal Air Force pilots were lost, two pilots are in the hands of the Jewish authorities, but we hope that they will shortly be repatriated.
    Our squadrons have carried out a difficult task, calling for accurate flying and good discipline. The results of their reconnaissances, now confirmed from other sources, show that they fully achieved what was asked of them. I am sure the House would wish me to express their sympathy with the next-of-kin of the two officers who lost their lives.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say, if he or the Government knew that these reconnaissance flights were taking place, why the Air Ministry did not know that the high level reconnaissance flight was taking place in December? My second question is—he referred to the aircraft flying as four Spitfires, two as cover—whether, it is not a fact that all four aircraft were flying at, approximately, 400 feet? Is he not aware that it is almost criminal to brief pilots—without discussing the rights or wrongs of the flight—to fly in such formation without any top cover over a battle area, and would he say what action has been taken to see that justice is done to those who have been lost?
    Mr. Henderson: With regard to the second part of the question, I am quite sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree that we must not prejudge the investigations which will be undertaken by the Court of Inquiry. As regards the
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    first part, I have already tried to make it clear to the House that the high altitude long-distance photographic reconnaissances of the Mosquito aircraft were laid on as part of the essential training that has gone on since the end of the war whereas these tactical reconnaissances were put on for the purposes I have indicated in my statement.
    Mr. Clement Davies: Is it quite clear that these planes were sent on their mission without the knowledge of, and without consultation with, any member of the Security Council? Although, apparently, they were sent with the knowledge of the Egyptian Government, were the reasons of the Egyptian Government given beforehand?
    Mr. Henderson: On that point, I cannot go beyond the reference I made in paragraph two of my statement.
    Mr. Crossman: In view of the fact that the first reconnaissance on 7th January took place at very low level, and over an area where a land and air battle was taking place, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman believe that the Israeli forces could possibly distinguish between English and Egyptian Spitfires flying over the battlefield, and, if he does not, was it not totally irresponsible to send these aircraft on that mission?
    Mr. Henderson: I want to be quite frank with the House and to say that, in my view, it is conceivable that as regards the Jewish ground forces, they might well have mistaken these aircraft for Egyptian aircraft, but I do not take that view with regard to the Spitfires which were shot down by the Jewish Spitfires which swooped down on them, because they should have been able to see the distinguishing marks on the wings.
    Mr. Stanley: Is it not a fact that these reconnaissances were undertaken within a few hours of a proposed "cease fire," and that the result of these reconnaissances could not, in fact, have been available to anybody before the "cease fire" had actually taken place? In these circumstances, what was the urgency for sending these people on a dangerous mission to a fighting area?
    Mr. Henderson: I think that, again, is a point which must be elucidated by this court of inquiry; I can only give the

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    facts to the House. This reconnaissance was laid on by the Commander-in-Chief. It is quite true that it was three hours before the appointed time for the cease fire, but he considered it necessary to ascertain the actual situation, and that is why he allowed it. Whether he was justified in doing so will be a matter that will be investigated by the court of inquiry.
    Mr. Stanley: Are we to understand that these reconnaissances were undertaken on the sole responsibility of the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Middle East, and not under instructions emanating from this country? If it was done on instructions from this country, then, surely, it is the House of Commons and not the court of inquiry who ought to be given the reason?
    Mr. Henderson: The authority to carry out these tactical reconnaissances emanated, as I said in my statement, from His Majesty's Government, and, therefore, he was acting under that authority. But the day-to-day decision as to whether a reconnaissance should take place today instead of tomorrow, or tomorrow instead of today, is a matter for the Commander-in-Chief.
    Mr. Stanley: When and what were the most recent instructions given by Whitehall to the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief?
    Mr. Henderson: I think the signal was dated 1st January.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts: On a point of Order. Having regard to the great uncertainty of this matter, the most unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies, and the anxiety felt in the House, would it be in order to suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that you accept a Motion for the Adjournment of the House to discuss a matter of urgent and definite public importance?
    Hon. Members: That will stop further questions.
    Mr. Roberts: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House upon a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the sending of units of the Royal Air Force on reconnaissance over territory where hostilities were taking place, as a result of which
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    some aircraft were shot down and members of the British Forces killed."
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member asks permission to move the Adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the sending of units of the Royal Air Force on reconnaissance over territory where hostilities were taking place, as a result of which some aircraft were shot down and members of the British Forces killed."
    If the hon. Member had moved this yesterday, which was the first occasion when it could have been moved—and when it should have been moved—then I would have accepted it. But now, I am afraid, the first occasion has been lost, and, therefore, I am bound by the Rules. I cannot accept it on this occasion. Secondly, I am also bound to take note of the fact that an early Debate was promised, I presume for early next week. That is, perhaps, only two Parliamentary days away. I am bound to take that into consideration, too, and I presume that the statement of the Secretary of State for Air, having been fully read and considered, will be discussed during that Debate. For those reasons, while in many ways I regret it—if it had been put forward to me yesterday, I would have accepted it—today the Rules do not allow me to accept it.
    Sir Peter Macdonald: Further to that point of Order. May I point out that it was not possible for us to raise this matter yesterday because Private Notice Questions were not allowed owing to the fact that this Question was on the Order Paper for today. Otherwise, I would have tried to move the Adjournment yesterday. Therefore, I submit that we should have an Adjournment Debate today, or, at any rate, that further questions should be allowed.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think anything stops further questions. With regard to the hon. Member's question, there was a Question on the Paper, and I agree that a Private Notice Question would thus have been out of Order, but it was still possible for the hon. Member to have got up and moved the Adjournment yesterday without putting a Question. I looked up that matter carefully this morning, and that was the proper course to have taken yesterday after Questions.
    Sir P. Macdonald: Can the Minister say whether the Egyptian Government invoked the Treaty which they had previously given notice to revoke, and, if they did not ask for our assistance, what right had we to carry out this open reconnaissance over a battle area at a time when a battle was taking place?
    Mr. Henderson: The hon. Gentleman's question is entirely hypothetical.
    Sir P. Macdonald: Did they invoke the Treaty?
    Mr. Churchill: Have the Egyptian Government invoked the Treaty or have they not?
    Mr. Henderson: The answer is "No, Sir."
    Mr. Blackburn: May I ask the Secretary of State whether he is aware that the parents of Pilot Officer Tattersfield have received information from an absolutely reliable authority which not only states that this fight took place on the Egyptian side of the frontier, but also, that the attacking aircraft were Spitfires wearing British camouflage, and that it was for that reason that the pilots concerned were not able to take the necessary action by way of evasion or retaliation? Will the Minister look into that, and will he further impress on the Government that there is great concern over the fact that the Israeli forces had Spitfires? Where did they get them from?
    Mr. Henderson: They certainly did not get them from me and I am not in a position to answer the question without proper notice. It should be addressed to another Department.
    Mr. M. Lindsay: I want to ask the Secretary of State if he does not realise that this shocking event could not conceivably have occurred if it were not for the very low level of prestige to which His Majesty's Government have brought this country?
    Mr. Benn Levy: As my right hon. and learned Friend has made it clear that these reconnaissance flights took place without the invitation of the Egyptians, without the invitation of the Mediator, without the invitation of the United Nations, can he say whether he himself gave the necessary instructions and if not, who did?
    Mr. Henderson: I do not think it is for me to pick out a member of the Government when action is taken. As I have said in my statement, the policy was authorised by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view of the fact that when the afternoon patrol was sent out it was known that aircraft of the morning patrol had been attacked and shot down, were the pilots of the afternoon patrol sent out with the same restrictive orders as to self-defence as those of the morning patrol, and if so, why?
    Mr. Henderson: As far as I can understand from the signals—that particular point has not been dealt with—they were given the same instructions on both occasions.
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: I hope I have not misunderstood the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but on the question which he answered just before the last, is it the case that, as Secretary of State for Air, he allows other Members of the Government to give instructions to the Department for which he is responsible?
    Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. I am not suggesting that at all. I am one of the number of Ministers who take decisions in a matter of this kind and I see no reason why I should not state my position. I was fully consulted by the appropriate Ministers on all occasions except one, when I was absent from London.
    Mr. Churchill: What is this doctrine of the "appropriate Ministers"? Decisions of this character surely have to be given through some specific Department whose Minister is directly responsible. Is that not so? What is the "appropriate Minister"? Yet the right hon. and learned Gentleman, when tackled in the House on the subject, seems to suggest that others intervened upon him and gave him directions which he carried out.
    Mr. Henderson: I was not. After all, the right hon. Gentleman has had greater experience of Government than I have and he knows perfectly well that not even the most distinguished First Lord of the Admiralty in his day was allowed to move ships about for operational purposes or any other purposes, except in consultation with any other Minister who might be involved.
    Mr. Churchill: Is it a fact, then, that the instructions were given to the right hon. and learned Gentleman from the Foreign Office?
    Mr. Henderson: The instructions that go out to the Air Force go out from me, but certainly I am entitled to have, and the right hon. Gentleman on many occasions must have had, consultations with other Ministers whether a certain course of conduct was necessary.
    Mr. Churchill: No, no; I asked a precise question. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says he acted upon certain instructions and used his authority, quite properly, under those instructions. Did those instructions come from the Foreign Office?
    Mr. Henderson: They certainly did not come from the Foreign Office as such, but I am quite prepared to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was one of the Ministers with whom I had consultations.
    Mr. Churchill: Then we understand they came from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs himself?
    Mr. Henderson: I said that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was one of the Ministers concerned—one of them.
    Mr. Swingler: Can the House have an answer to these questions? Did the Secretary of State for Air or did he not have prior knowledge of the actual tactical reconnaissance flights over the battle area which were to be made? Did he have prior knowledge or not?
    Mr. Henderson: Yes, Sir; as I have said, in principle, Yes. I have already explained to the House that authority was given to the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief to carry out these tactical reconnaissances, but it would be for the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief to decide, day by day, whether or not a particular reconnaissance should be put on.
    Mr. Churchill: The right hon. and learned Gentleman told us that one of the Ministers who asked him or instructed him to undertake these reconnaissances was the Foreign Secretary. Which other Minister, except the Prime Minister, has an equal responsibility for deciding upon these particular matters? Which other Minister? I think the Prime Minister might say something on this.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): The right hon. Gentleman is very well aware that in these matters, where there is a question which may involve matters of foreign policy and high policy, a question of this kind is often discussed by. Ministers and then the appropriate action is taken by a particular Service Minister. The action taken is the action of the Government. The Government are responsible; I am responsible; the Government are prepared to answer for their actions.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman fully accept, first, his responsibility as the Secretary of State who will give final instructions, whether with or without consultation with his colleagues; and, secondly, is he satisfied that the terms of the instructions given to these officers, in view of the rapidity of movement in air battles, gave them, a reasonable chance of carrying out this work without endangering—as, in fact, they did endanger—their lives and their machines?
    Mr. Henderson: I think that is the kind of question that ought to be elucidated at the inquiry, but I can say this—the actual instruction that was sent out made it as clear as language can make it clear, that no pilot was to cross the Egyptian frontier.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: On a point of Order. I am fortunate enough to have the Adjournment Debate tomorrow evening on a subject dealing with Royal Air Force efficiency. It is now my intention to refer on that occasion to this matter.
    Mr. Paget: In view of the fact that the Egyptians were using Spitfires, what did the Secretary of State expect the Jews to do to Spitfires flying in from Egypt? Secondly, were the photographs which were taken by these Spitfires supplied to the Egyptian Command?
    Mr. Henderson: My hon. and learned Friend seems to have accepted the view of the Jewish authorities that it was a case of the Royal Air Force planes flying into Palestine. The evidence I have put before the House, and the statement I have made this afternoon, make it quite clear that the Royal Air Force planes did not cross the Egyptian frontier, but that it was a case of the Jewish planes crossing the Egyptian frontier.
    Mr. Paget: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman answer the second part of the question?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) said he would refer to this subject on the Adjournment tomorrow. If he means that he intends to raise this matter on the Adjournment tomorrow he has changed his subject. To be quite frank, I do not quite see how he can refer to this subject tomorrow—although he can deal with any subject—seeing that the subject he has put down is "Fats for fish friers."
    Air-Commodore Harvey: I saw one of your staff last week, Sir, and the subject has been changed to one dealing with Royal Air Force efficiency.
    Mr. Speaker: I have the wrong notice. I beg the hon. and gallant Member's pardon.
    Mr. Churchill: Would it not be in accordance with the general convenience of the House not to have a Debate on this extremely difficult and serious subject in so short a time as that permitted?
    Air-Commodore Harvey: If I may be allowed, I think in the circumstances, to allow questions to be continued, I will say that I do not intend to raise this subject on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Paget: May I have an answer to my question—whether these photographs were supplied to the Egyptians?
    Mr. S. Silverman: May I ask two questions? The first is: In view of the precautions taken to avoid any incident by warning the Egyptian Government that these planes were to go, can my right hon. and learned Friend say why similar precautions were not taken by warning the Israeli Government that these planes were going, and the purpose of the flight? The second question is: Since under the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty we are entitled to fly planes outside the Canal Zone only on training flights unless the Treaty has been invoked, and since this was not a training flight, was not the flight of these planes a breach of the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty?
    Mr. Henderson: As regards the first part of my hon. Friend's question there was no need to inform the Jewish authori
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    ties of the fact that our planes were going to fly in Egyptian territory, because there is no reason at all why they should be told about what is taking place in other countries. All I can say is that these unfortunate events might well have been avoided, because these reconnaissances might well have not been necessary had not it been for the fact that the Jewish authorities prevented observers from the United Nations organisation from visiting the areas in which this fighting was taking place. As regards the second part of the question, it is a legal point whether there has been a breach of the Treaty. I am not prepared to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that there has been a breach. Apparently the Egyptian Government do not take this view that there has been a breach, first of all because they have been well aware of the fact that these reconnaissances were taking place, and, in fact, as I said in my statement, they participated in the first one on 30th December.
    Mr. Boothby: May we take it that whoever else gave instructions for these reconnaissance flights over a battle area, they were not authorised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his capacity as Secretary of State for Air?
    Mr. Henderson: I certainly am not going to shirk my share of any responsibility. I thought I had made it clear to the House that I had, in consultation with other Ministers, or after consultation with other Ministers, sanctioned in principle the carrying out of these tactical reconnaissances.
    Mr. Thomas Reid: In view of one of my right hon. and learned Friend's previous statements, that our planes did not cross the Egyptian frontier, would he say if our pilots have made statements asserting that they had flown over the Egyptian frontier into Palestine?
    Mr. Henderson: Yes, Sir. There is a conflict of statements between Pilot-Officer Cooper, on the one hand, and Pilot-Officer Close, on the other hand, that can be determined only as and when we have the court of inquiry.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Could the right hon. and learned Gentleman inform the House whether a report of the attack made on

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    the morning reconnaissance was received in London in time to countermand, if necessary, the afternoon reconnaissance? In view of modern signalling methods it was perfectly possible. Can he say whether that was so or not?
    Mr. Henderson: Certainly not. No, Sir.
    Wing-Commander Millington: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that whereas Flying-Officer Cooper was shot down on 7th January and taken to an Arab hospital with three wounds in his leg, his parents learned of this fact from two successive broadcasts before being advised by the Air Ministry, and that this advice came through the medium of the local village constable?
    Mr. Henderson: I am not in a position to deal with that now, but I shall be very grateful if my hon. and gallant Friend will give me an opportunity of going into it.
    Mr. Keeling: Air combat being what it is, is there not a very strong likelihood that an aircraft ordered not to fire unless attacked will be shot down before it can reply?
    Mr. Henderson: After all, that is a matter of opinion and experience, and I am not in a position to express a view
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    on a matter like that without advice from those who have the knowledge and experience.
    Mr. Speaker: I think we had better await the Debate now.

  BILL PRESENTED
    PUBLIC WORKS (FESTIVAL OF BRITAIN) BILL
    "to provide, in connection with the Festival of Britain, 1951, for conferring further powers on the British Transport Commission and the London County Council, for the making by the Minister of Transport of grants in respect of expenses incurred by or on behalf of those bodies, for suspending or restricting the use by the public of certain streets and for other matters," presented by Mr. Barnes, supported by Mr. Herbert Morrison, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Bevan, Mr. Silkin, Mr. Key and Mr. Callaghan; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 47.]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings in Committee on Agricultural Marketing [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  AGRICULTURAL MARKETING BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  4.8 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  I am inviting the House today to give a Second Reading to a comparatively modest Bill to amend the Agricultural Marketing Acts and to bring them into line with modern conditions. It is now 17 years since the original Act was placed on the Statute Book. Much has happened during those 17 years. In particular, in the last few years we have seen some major changes in the economic and agricultural structure of this country. It was, therefore, right and, I believe, necessary that the Government should re-examine these Agricultural Marketing Acts and lay before Parliament proposals for either modifying or modernising this important part of the agricultural structure so that it should harmonise with modern developments.
  I would remind the House that the original Act of 1931 was conceived and piloted through the House by the Lord Privy Seal, to whom, I think, the agricultural community owes an eternal debt for the work he did on that occasion. That Act was passed in a period when the position of agriculture was very different from the position of agriculture today. It was then a very much depressed industry, suffering from years of neglect by successive Tory Administrations. The Labour Government made the first real attempt to provide some methods of improvements and decided that it was best perhaps to tackle marketing first. I think that we can claim with due modesty that in general principle and for the purpose then intended, the 1931 Act was well-conceived.
  As may be expected after 17 years, some amendments have now become necessary and particular account has to be taken of two new elements, namely, modern developments in our food policy and in our agricultural policy. It was in the light of these two new elements that the Government invited the committee
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  under the chairmanship of Lord Lucas to re-examine the Agricultural Marketing Acts. Their report, as hon. Members will be aware, was published 12 months ago. It provoked much thought, some argument and occasional hysteria, but Parliament was informed during last May that the report raised issues of far-reaching importance and that the major proposals of the committee needed further examination in the light of the wider problems of procurement, marketing and distribution. Although a good deal of thought has been and still is being given to those recommendations, the situation remains the same at the moment.
  I want to emphasise particularly to those Members who feel that this particular Bill does not go so far as it might, that it in no way prejudices any decision that the Government may make either on the Lucas report or the Williams report on milk distribution. Our present purpose is much more limited in scope. It is not a good idea never to do anything until one can do everything; on the other hand, it is probably not wise to try to do everything at once. It is still open to producers, if they so desire, to prepare new marketing schemes under the 1931 and 1933 Acts. Times have changed since those Acts were passed, and before any new schemes are approved—one scheme for tomatoes and cucumbers has already been submitted to me—it is desirable that the Acts on which the marketing schemes are based should be amended to accord with the requirements of the modern post-war age.
  The Lucas report focused attention on many of the problems of agricultural marketing and also on the relationship between the producers' marketing boards and the public. The Bill now before the House owes much in its more important provisions to the penetrating analysis and constructive recommendations of that committee. It is for that reason that the Government decided to introduce the present Bill, so that the existing marketing schemes or, indeed, any new ones that may emerge should conform to the new conditions under which we live; and that is the major reason for this Measure.
  We have a coherent plan for agriculture enshrined in the Act of 1947, and the Agricultural Marketing Acts should be

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  regarded as complementary to Part I, which guarantees prices and assures markets, and also to Part II which sets out to promote good estate management and good husbandry. Under the appropriate Acts, these marketing schemes can provide the machinery with which to carry out the purpose of Part I of the Agriculture Act of 1947. There are certain principles, however, by which we should always be guided in our approach to agricultural marketing problems. First and foremost is, of course, the fact that agriculture is not one industry; it is a whole range of industries and cannot easily be fitted into the strait jacket of uniformity of method. It requires a wide choice of machinery—Marketing Board, Co-operative Society, Development Council and, perhaps, the Independent Commission—to achieve its varied purposes, and sometimes the functional objectives may require two types to operate simultaneously.
  Secondly, we must remember that the pace of agriculture is necessarily governed by the forces and processes of nature which are necessarily slow. This does not mean that the industry is incapable of rapid reaction to a sudden stimulus; the response of farmers of this country in two world wars and the recent response to our expansion programme would disprove that argument. Neither does it mean that agriculture is not receptive of new ideas. Our modern horticultural industry would disprove that, too. It means, however, that agriculture cannot lightly undertake changes in its structure or its rotational methods. These have to be slowly done to enable these schemes to mature steadily.
  Thirdly, agriculture is an industry largely made up of small producing units, by nature individualistic, certainly so when approaching problems which attack the livelihood of each individual. If the full weight of the agricultural industry is to pull with and not against the stream of national policy, we must always aim at consulting and retaining their good will and confidence. Fourthly, we must accept that an intelligent marketing policy must have the end product and the ultimate market in view. The Lucas Committee summed this up very well in the single sentence that:
  "The producer retains an interest in the marketing of farm produce up to the point at
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  which it reaches the producer … but … in the vast majority of cases the producer's interest is not an exclusive one."
  The Agricultural Marketing Acts certainly observed these four principles. They are more suitable to apply to some products than to others, and they contain a wide variety of powers from which those appropriate to any particular commodity or group of commodities can be selected. They provide a basic form of organisation which permits schemes to come into force and to remain in operation only so long as producer members wish, and also enable producers to retain an interest in their product until it finally reaches the consumer. Having said that, I do not want to suggest that the marketing boards provide the best solution for the marketing of all agricultural commodities. They certainly provide one method and, in certain cases, a very suitable method of effecting improvements in our marketing structure. The extent to which the Marketing Acts will be used will depend, as it always has depended, upon the desires of the producers themselves and, of course, on the Government's decision on the main recommendations of the Lucas report.
  The powers contained in the Act are not only wide in choice but are very strong in substance, and Parliament in 1931 and 1933 also provided safeguards of considerable weight. That these were seldom used in pre-war days is itself a striking testimony to the sense of responsibility with which the marketing boards have approached their tasks; but with changing conditions, especially in view of guaranteed prices and assured markets for all the main agricultural commodities, we are now satisfied that further powers of control are necessary in the public interest.
  These further controls are contained in the first four Clauses of the Bill. Since the war, there has been another development which is important if only for its indirect bearing, namely, the Monopoly and Restrictive Practices Act, 1948. That Act provides for the investigation of monopolies and restrictive arrangements in industry and trade and for taking action against those which are found to work against the public interest. The procedure is designed to deal with possible abuse by non-statutory monopolies or organisations of producers and traders, but, does not apply to the

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  agricultural marketing boards' powers derived from statutes which provide their own safeguards. Nevertheless, where Parliament gives special powers and privileges to boards which represent private interests, I think it is quite proper to see that they are subject to the same sort of scrutiny and control as are applied to industry and trade.
  The Agricultural Marketing Acts contain a number of safeguards, such as the power of the Minister in certain circumstances to modify schemes before they come into force or to amend or revoke them, or to give directions to boards. Of course, the last and final arbiter is that a scheme must receive the approval of both Houses of Parliament before it comes into force or is amended. The exercise by the Minister of his powers is certainly no formality should the necessity arise. Under the present Government, however, all proposals involving a grant of new or amended restrictive powers are subject to thorough examination by the Board of Trade, the Department wholly responsible for policy towards monopolies and for ensuring that the public interest is properly safeguarded.
  Where a marketing board is set up the Marketing Acts provide statutory safeguards, including a consumers' committee and a committee of investigation to advise the Minister, and Clauses 2 and 4 of this Bill extend the matters that may be referred to the committee of investigation. Many questions which the committee of investigation will have to consider will be similar to the questions dealt with by the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission. I think, therefore, that it will be necessary to have an overlap of membership so that they may pursue a common policy, and in order to form this link the appropriate agricultural Minister or Secretary of State will appoint one member of each committee of investigation, after consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who most likely will recommend a member of his Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission.
  Section 14 of the 1933 Act, which amended Section 2 (1) of the 1931 Act, provided that the Minister, after consultation with the promoters of an agricultural marketing scheme should appoint two members to the original board. When,
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  however, the first elected board came into office they were then to co-opt, after consultation with the Marketing Supply Committee, two persons specially qualified by reason of their commercial or financial knowledge. In practice the boards have normally co-opted the Minister's two nominees, and experience has shown the value of such a provision, combining commercial and financial knowledge with the practical knowledge of the elected member. This Bill only extends that principle. Accordingly, Clause I enables the Minister to appoint a certain number of members, up to one-fifth of each marketing board, from persons with experience of commerce, finance, administration or the organisation of workers, By a later provision the Minister can modify an existing scheme to bring it into line with this Bill.
  The principle of producer representation, on which the original Act was based, is not affected by this new provision. Producers may select whom they like, but once members are elected it is their plain duty to carry out the scheme in the primary interest of producers. The Minister's nominees will be expected to use their knowledge and influence to harmonise the well-being of the producers and the public interest at the same time. I do not think that these dual interests are either incompatible or necessarily antagonistic.
  Clauses 2, 3 and 4 are an extension of the principle contained in Section 9 of the 1931 Act. Under that Section it was competent for a consumers' committee, or indeed for any person or number of persons, to complain to the Minister about any provision of the scheme or of any act or omission of the board. That complaint could be referred to an independent body called a committee of investigation, and if the committee found the complaint justified and the public interest really prejudiced, then the Minister was empowered by order either to revoke or amend the scheme, or to ask the Board to rectify the matter complained of. These arrangements proved very satisfactory before the war. There was a strong committee, with an eminent lawyer as chairman, which dealt, I believe fairly, with every complaint that came before it. Fortunately, however, over the years there were very few complaints.

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  The new Clauses go slightly further than that. Under the old procedure the Minister could not act entirely on his own initiative, except of course by the extreme method of completely revoking the scheme. In other words, he had no power of initiative. Now, it may be argued that if there is a serious injury, surely somebody will make a complaint. That may be so, but Parliament is responsible for the public interest and the Minister is responsible to Parliament, and if the Minister is to discharge his responsibilities fairly and squarely he must have the powers to enable him to do so. If the Minister does step in himself he takes full responsibility when submitting a case to the marketing board or the committee of investigation.
  These boards are democratic bodies. They are elected by producers to carry out marketing schemes in the interest of efficiency, and of course at the expense of the producers themselves. No Government would wish to interfere with the boards in the daily exercise of their functions. Clause 2, therefore, defines the undesirable consequences which may flow from the misuse of any one of those four powers, and it is only in those defined circumstances that the Minister may initiate action without waiting for a complaint. If the Minister thinks that those circumstances have arisen or are likely to arise he can notify the board that he proposes to take certain action; but in view of the effect on the board's other activities or their finances they are entitled, if they so desire, to have the matter referred to a committee of investigation for adjudgment of the facts. This may take time—in some cases a considerable amount of time—and the public injury may continue meanwhile. Therefore, as will be observed, under Clause 4 the Minister is empowered to give a temporary direction to hold the situation while the committee are conducting their inquiry.
  It may be argued that the committee of investigation may conceivably find against the Minister, and that the board and producers will have suffered undue injury due to the Minister's action. But no Minister—certainly not "yours truly"—would fail to feel a sense of deep responsibility in exercising those powers, and a Minister would be reluctant to use them without the strongest possible justification,
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  knowing that, quite properly, he would be called to account, not only by the general public but also by Parliament itself. That broadly is the new public safeguard contained in Clauses 2, 3 and 4. I have read many speeches and have heard many arguments about Clause 4. It is said, for instance, that these powers are not necessary and, therefore, why have them in the Bill; they were not necessary before the war and will not be necessary after the war. That is a question which answers itself. If the powers are not necessary it implies that no infringement will take place, and in that case Clause 4 will never be used.
  Clauses 5 to 8 contain a group of amendments arising out of an inquiry held by the Falmouth Committee just before the war into the imposition and recovery of penalties for contravention by registered producers of schemes established under the Statute. The Committee reached the general conclusion that offences under the schemes should continue to be dealt with by domestic tribunals rather than by the ordinary courts, but they made a number of recommendations, most of which are adopted in this Bill. In particular, they recommended that the responsibility for hearing cases of infringement should rest not with the whole of the marketing board, but with a disciplinary committee of the board, and that the disciplinary committee should have full responsibility for naming the date, notifying the person and providing him with all information. This disciplinary committee is to have a chairman with legal experience who is approved by the Minister.
  Of the remaining Clauses attention might be called briefly to Clauses 9, 16 and 19. Clause 9 widens the powers which boards may take, but in a new direction. The original Act was concerned solely with marketing, but it is becoming increasingly evident that good marketing starts on the farm with good production. Good marketing can do little with poor quality produce. It is a waste of time and money to attempt to grade low quality apples. A pig of bad conformation will never make a good side of bacon. Therefore, Clause 9 gives to marketing boards enabling powers to help farmers to "grow the grade."
  The Lucas Committee in paragraph 271 expressed the view that no agency is

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  so well fitted as is a producer board for the task of raising production efficiency. Particularly is that so in the case of products for which prices have been guaranteed and markets assured. This Clause enables boards to produce, either themselves or in co-operation with existing trade interests, anything which producers may require not only for better marketing but also for better production. It is just conceivable for instance, that a new milk churn may be invented. It may he that manufacturers will be invited to produce that churn, but because of existing interests they would prefer to preserve the old churns even though the new ones would be easier to handle and more economic to transport. This Clause gives the board some bargaining power at all events to insist that the new piece of equipment should be made available to the farmers. It also enables the board to perform services to farmers such as the erection and operation of grass drying plants, and the establishment and conduct of artificial insemination centres.
  Fears have already been expressed by certain large manufacturers that these small marketing boards may enter into competition with industry and start producing motorcars or tractors. Does any hon. Member conceive any marketing board contemplating for one moment entering into competition with Fords of Dagenham, Fergusons of Coventry or indeed anyone else for the production of the larger implements that are used on farms? The safeguards in the Bill are so complete that it seems to me that those fears are very ill-founded. When a scheme has been prepared it has to be advertised and opportunities given for objections. That may be followed by a public inquiry. The Minister has an opportunity of looking at the objection after the inquiry, and, finally the scheme must be approved by affirmative Resolution of this House. All those industrial interests which have expressed fear and doubt can rest assured that that position is completely safeguarded.
  Clause 16 does two things. Subsection (1) requires the Minister by Order to amend existing schemes in order to bring them into line with this Bill, while Subsection (3) deals with a different problem. A number of the existing schemes were suspended at the beginning
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  of the war under the Defence Regulations. Sooner or later some of those schemes can be revised, but after the lapse of nine years some of the provisions regarding such matters as the election of a board have become unworkable, and the Minister may have to modify them in order that the machine may agar commence to run. His authority to do this is given in Subsection (3). In Clause 19. Northern Ireland for the first time is brought within the orbit of the Act.
  Mr. Snadden: The right hon. Gentleman has skipped a very important Clause which has to do with Scotland. I notice that not one Minister from the Scottish office is on the Front Bench. Perhaps he would give us an explanation.
  Mr. Williams: The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who has largely to do with agricultural matters, has been attending another meeting, but already he is on his way to the House. Since Scotch Members are so sniffy about British Members entering into Scottish politics I thought it would be far better that, if there should be any Scottish questions on Clause 18, the Under-Secretary should make the appropriate reply.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Could the right hon. Gentleman explain his statement that Scottish—or "Scotch" as he called them, which is very bad English—get sniffy when British Members enter into a discussion on Scottish affairs? What are Scottish Members if they are not British Members? Surely it should be English Members?
  Mr. Williams: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman is really anxious to give me a lesson on the English language I shall be very happy to become his pupil immediately the Debate is over.
  As I said, Northern Ireland has been brought into the four corners of such a marketing Act as this for the first time. It may be that action involving the whole of the United Kingdom may occur, as, Pr example, when wool is being considered, but the Parliament of Northern Ireland is responsible for its own domestic agricultural policy, and, therefore, Clause 19 provides that a scheme under these Acts may be brought into being for any part of Great Britain

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  and Northern Ireland but not for Northern Ireland alone. In Subsections (3) and (4) it states that before a scheme comprising Northern Ireland comes before this Parliament, the Parliament of Northern Ireland shall say whether it shall apply to Northern Ireland or not. If they agree, the scheme comes before both Houses of Parliament here, and if they approve it becomes the business of the United Kingdom. If, however, the Northern Ireland Parliament resolve otherwise, then the Ministers concerned in Great Britain, with the assent of the promoters of the scheme, are authorised to make the necessary amendments and confine the scheme to Great Britain.
  Finally, while I make no extravagant claim for this extremely modest Bill, we must bear in mind that we have set our agricultural industry a gigantic task if it is to achieve the target of an additional £100 millions worth of food per annum by 1952. It has made an encouraging start, and is entitled to every aid of organised production and marketing that Parliament can give. Those two go together. It is for that reason that we have introduced this Bill. The extended powers under Clause 9 will enable the marketing board to provide additional services to registered producers, apart from those I have mentioned, such as grading, packing, storage and transport at all stages before the product finally reaches the main channel of wholesale and retail distribution.
  Secondly, the appointment of a certain number of members of the board with special qualifications, and certain powers of direction given to the Minister, will help to steer the activities of the board in such a way as to avoid conflict between producers and the national interest. Where the State guarantees both price and market I believe there is every justification for expecting a high standard of efficient marketing. Where no such guarantees exist, for example, in the horticultural industry to which the guarantee system was inappropriate, facilities for efficient marketing are more important than ever.
  As I said in my opening remarks, the Bill in no way prejudices any decision the Government may make upon the major recommendations of the Lucas Committee. With that reservation I believe
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  that the Bill will make a valuable contribution towards marketing efficiency and towards maximum production in our oldest industry. For those reasons I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
  4.42 p.m.
  Major Sir Thomas Dugdale: The Minister has, as is his custom, given us a very clear exposition of the Bill, the purpose of which is to amend the Agricultural Marketing Acts of 1931 and 1933. I thought he was unconvincing in his opening remarks about the reasons for the introduction of the Bill. He left the House very much in doubt about the way his mind was working. He told us, and he said it again in his final sentence, that the Bill in no way prejudices the future action of the Government in regard to such reports as the Lucas and the Williams Reports. In other words, the Minister still leaves the garage door open. Whether it is his intention one day to occupy that garage with some broken down vehicle remains to be seen. I am certain that the House and the country, and particularly the producers of the country, will be very interested to know what the Minister has in mind on that important question.
  On this side of the House we are very relieved that the Bill does not give effect to the recommendations of the Lucas Report. After very careful consideration of the report we think that the commodity commissions envisaged in that report would not result in shorter or more direct marketing channels but would rather introduce additional bottlenecks and frustrations. It would be out of Order for me to argue upon the provisions of the Lucas Report this afternoon, but I should like to make it clear on behalf of Members on this side of the House that the remarks I now propose to make deal entirely with the Measure before us and in no way concern any future Measures that may be introduced by the Government in course of time.
  Hon. Members on this side of the House have consistently held the view that efficient marketing must be the essential complement to efficient production, with producers taking the primary responsibility and deciding on the best form of marketing systems for the future. We have considered most carefully the pre-war and the war-time experience and

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  also recent agricultural developments to which the Minister referred in his speech, both at home and abroad, for instance the 1947 Marketing Act, the International Trade Organisation Charter and the Lucas Report. We are still firmly convinced that the most economical means of handling and marketing home produce is through the medium of producers' marketing hoards and that the basic principles of the Agricultural Marketing Acts of 1931 and 1933 should be maintained for this purpose.
  The Minister referred to his right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal. I remember—and this is going back a long way—the Debates upon the original Agricultural Marketing Act of 1931. Hon. Members on this side have always argued that it was no use at all without its corollary the Act of 1933, which gave power to limit imports and which was introduced by a Government of Members on this side of the House. On the general principle of the Bill we support the objects which it would appear from the Minister's speech—apart from the trimmings at the beginning and the end—are in the Government's mind, anyhow at this moment, of continuing to adhere to the principle of the promotion of marketing boards by producers, with powers to market their own produce.
  Marketing boards, during this last period of years and with the exception of the Milk Marketing Board which has been an agent of the Ministry of Food, have been in abeyance. I take it that the Minister's main object in introducing the Bill is to enable reconstructed boards and new boards to take up marketing functions to meet the new conditions which have arisen as a result of and since the war. I would ask the Minister who replies to tell us when the Government hope to get the new marketing boards into operation or to bring boards out of cold storage where they have rested for such a long time. When the boards do come into being, to whom will they be responsible on the ministerial level? We feel that it is important that the House should be assured that the hoards will not be mere satellites of the Ministry of Food. If they are, I fear the worst for producers and for the national interest.
  I have indicated our general approach in principle to the Bill. I would say now that we are not happy about certain of
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  its provisions. We can see no reason for the greatly increased supervisory powers of the Ministry of Agriculture. I refer especially to Clause 4. Before I deal in detail with that Clause I should like to say a word about Clause 1, which relates to the composition of the boards. As I read Clause 1, there is no provision for consultation with producers before the Minister appoints his nominees to a board. I think that the House would like an assurance that nothing in this Clause will prejudice the right of a producer to be consulted, in accordance with Section 2 of the Act of 1931, before such appointments are made.
  I am sure the Minister will agree that fundamentally what is really important in regard to the selection of personnel for the boards by the Minister is that the services of the best men available shall be obtained and that on no account shall any political considerations be allowed to influence the Minister in his choice.
  Mrs. Leah Manning: What about considerations of sex?
  Sir T. Dugdale: I meant that the best individuals should be chosen. I hope the Minister will be able to give us an assurance on that point for I am satisfied that in his case there would not be any political consideration in any appointments he might make. I have another small point about Clause 1. Subsection (1, a) provides that the Minister may, if he thinks fit, increase the number to an unspecified extent beyond a normal maximum of 24. May we be told if there is a reason for it? What has the Minister in mind? If there are to be limits at all, why suddenly say that the Minister may increase to any number? The House would like to know exactly what the Minister's intention is there.
  The powers of the Minister to give directions to the boards were explained in detail by the right hon. Gentleman. Broadly speaking, we accept the provisions of Clause 2 in view of the safeguards in Subsections (3) and (4) under which the board may require a matter to be referred to a committee of investigation and the Minister may only make his order with regard to commodities not covered by the First Schedule of the 1947 Act if the investigating committee find that the board's action or omission is contrary to the public interest. Having said that, I must

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  say that my right hon. and hon. Friends take the very gravest objections to the powers conferred on the Minister in Clause 4, which empowers him to give a temporary direction during the time that the matter under review is subjected to the investigation of the committee. If the committee find the action or omission of the board not contrary to the public interest, it is true that the temporary order is withdrawn, but what happens in the meantime? There is no provision for compensation to the producers for loss they may have suffered, and one can equally say that if it went the other way, there is no provision to meet the loss suffered by the consumers. One can take it either way, though if the consumers suffer loss, the loss is spread over many millions of people and may not amount to more than a few shillings each, whereas if the producers suffer loss, some hard-working producers may be made bankrupt through no fault of their own. That is a very substantial difference.
  Suppose that in the case of a perishable commodity like strawberries a strawberry marketing board fixed a certain price. The Minister might consider the price too high and give the board notice that he proposes to issue an order to reduce the price under Clause 2. The board could demand that the matter be referred to the committee of investigation. Under Clause 4 the Minister could make a temporary order which might remain in force for two months after the publication of the committee's report, depending on how long it takes to consider the matter. Suppose the committee found the price provisionally fixed by the board to be reasonable. The Minister would then withdraw his order, but in the meantime the entire strawberry crop might have been sold at a loss. What would the Minister's position be and what could he do in such a case? His precipitate action would have caused an important section of the industry to lose thousands of pounds and some of them might have gone bankrupt, and yet he would have no power to compensate them for their loss.
  On the other hand, there is nothing to prevent a board, in order to safeguard itself, inserting a clause in all contracts that in the event of the contracts being
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  varied as the result of a temporary order under Clause 4, the original terms of contract will be applied retrospectively if the investigating committee give judgment in favour of the board. The Clause does not make sense. The Minister rather indicated in his speech that it was very doubtful whether he would use it. I hope that before we finish discussing the Measure we shall persuade the Minister and the Government to delete the Clause. I cannot see how it will operate, and if it cannot operate, what is the good of including it in the Bill?
  There is a further point which bears upon the example I have just given. Clause 3 states that the provisions of Clause 2 are in amplification of and not in substitution for Section 9 of the 1931 Act. Under the existing powers the Minister can revoke a marketing scheme, which means the closing down of a board, where the board acts in a manner contrary to the public interest. I should have thought that was an entirely adequate safeguard for both the House and the public at large. That is an additional reason for deleting Clause 4.
  I shall not discuss the Clauses dealing with penalties. The Minister said that they follow certain recommendations of the Falmouth Committee which reported in 1938, and we have no general criticisms to make upon them. Clause 9 would appear to bring Section 5 of the 1931 Act up to date, and it will be generally welcomed by producers in so far as it increases the opportunity of marketing boards to promote more efficient production of the regulated product. The Minister instanced milk churns. Such things as the milk recording societies and various other activities would come under the provisions of the Clause.
  However, I was amazed that the Minister made no reference to Clause 13 which abolishes the Market Supply Committee. The Opposition are very suspicious of this proposal because it would appear to be a forerunner of a further Measure to establish the Ministry of Food as a permanent Department of the State. The powers to set up the committee were given in Section 3 of the 1933 Act, and the function of the committee was to review the supply position of agricultural products in the United Kingdom and to

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  make recommendations as to their regulation and production and the control of imports. I hold the view that there is a strong case to be made for the retention of an advisory body such as the Market Supply Committee, both now and in the future, as there is no lack of evidence to show that the co-ordination of the production policy of the Minister of Agriculture and the import policy of the Ministry of Food leaves much to be desired.
  When the Minister was abroad—and I expect he has heard about it since his return—we had quite a lot of trouble about onions. When the Minister was away the Parliamentary Secretary had to deal with questions and answers about onions. Great difficulty has been encountered by onion growers in the disposal of their last year's crop. An expanded acreage in response to appeals by the Ministry of Agriculture, followed by a good growing season, yielded a record crop. Yet the Minister of Food refused for a very considerable time to alter his import policy. Eventually he did take action, but by the time he had taken action the damage had been done. The price slumped and the reward for many growers for all their hard work to feed the nation was an overdraft at the bank. That was the result of their special efforts encouraged by the Minister of Agriculture. Even now I am informed that in certain parts of the country thousands of tons of home grown onions have not found a market. Some are still in the fields and others are being ploughed in. That is the position today. Surely an independent advisory committee would have been helpful to the Ministry of Agriculture over that question.
  Then again, when the Minister of Agriculture was away another question was asked in this House. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) asked about vegetables, and on 6th December the Parliamentary Secretary informed the House that further expansion of the vegetable acreage would not be advisable. The advice which he gave to the House may or may not have been right. It was probably perfectly right, but I am certain that he would have been much happier, especially in view of the absence of the Minister of Agriculture, if he had had an independent advisory committee which he could have
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  consulted on this question. Again, as recently as yesterday in this House we had an interchange of views with the President of the Board of Trade on the Anglo-Polish Agreement. I do not know whether the Minister of Agriculture was consulted about this agreement, but even in that instance I should have thought that an independent advisory committee would have been of help to him.
  Looking forward to the next two or three weeks or so, the broccoli crop from the west country is likely to come upon the market, and it has been reported that licences might be given for the importation of 4,000 tons of Italian cauliflower.
  Mr. Beechman: If I may intervene, I understand that licences have, in fact, been given.
  Sir T. Dugdale: My hon. and learned Friend says that licences have, in fact, been given for the importation of 4,000 tons of Italian cauliflower. This is a very serious matter for our West Country horticulturists. Surely, an independent advisory body with a clear appreciation of our food requirements and of our production policy at home, such as a strengthened Market Supply Committee, would be invaluable to the Minister at present. I ask him to think very seriously over that position.
  Looking to the future, my hon. Friends and I, when dealing with marketing in our Agricultural Charter last year, used these words:
  "When food rationing ends"—
  I admit that may be a very long time off—
  "many of the present powers of the Ministry of Food should end with it. There is no case for perpetuating the commercial functions of the Ministry as a trader in foodstuffs."
  We go on to argue that the Ministry and its civil servants are precluded by their very nature from showing initiative and willingness to take risks which are the essence of every commercial enterprise, but at the same time we recognise that the maintenance of an adequate level of nutrition among all classes of the community must remain the responsibility of any Government in the future.
  What is the position with regard to the future? We are not at all satisfied with it, and we are often driven to the sorry

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  conclusion that the Minister of Agriculture on many occasions hears about the activities of his colleague the Minister of Food for the first time when he sees announcements in the Press or hears them broadcast on the wireless in the evening news. That could not be more unsatisfactory.
  Mr. Alpass: Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman any evidence to prove that?
  Sir T. Dugdale: What has happened would appear to bring us to those conclusions. We believe that in the future there must be much closer working contacts between the Government departments most concerned with food production and nutrition. The Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for Scotland, as responsible for the level of home production, must take their rightful place in the balanced partnership with the departments concerned with the consumer, the distributor and our overseas trade. I hope the Minister will give very careful consideration to these problems, as I am certain that he cannot be satisfied with the position as it exists today.
  I do not think there are any further Clauses in the Bill to which I need make reference at this moment. I am glad the Minister explained the provisions concerning Northern Ireland, and I hope they will be satisfactory to that part of the country. We shall assist the Minister to make a workmanlike Measure of this small but important Bill, and we shall do our utmost during the further stages to persuade him to drop Clause 4 and also retain the Market Supply Committee in some form. When the time comes for Members on this side of the House to resume the responsibility of government—and that time will come—we shall continue to encourage producers to use the facilities of the Agricultural Marketing Acts for the efficient production and marketing of their products.
  5.9 p.m.
  Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: I should like to congratulate the Minister on his combination of good luck and good management in introducing into this House another Bill which does not arouse heat, which is mainly accepted by all parties and which reflects the very considerable amount of agree
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  ment which he has been able to maintain in our policy towards agriculture. He himself said that it is not a very important Bill, but it deals with a very important subject. My criticism would be that it is not a sufficiently important Bill and does not deal in a sufficiently comprehensive way with the question of marketing. However, so far as it goes, as the hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) has pointed out, by implication it shows that the Minister and the Government see some place for producer-controlled marketing schemes in the marketing organisation of agricultural products.
  That is good, but what does it in fact amount to at present? I was trying to remind myself of what marketing schemes there are nowadays under the 1931 and 1933 Acts. There is the outstanding example of the Milk Marketing Board of England and Wales, and there are two, or possibly three, milk marketing boards in Scotland. Then there is the Hop Marketing Board, and that is all as far as England, Wales and Scotland are concerned; I regret that I am not familiar with the position in the North of Ireland. So, in fact, we are dealing with only milk and hops at the present time. Milk is an important product; hops are a limited product, important to a few farmers but not of general importance to the agricultural industry. The other boards which are in cold storage deal with potatoes, pigs and bacon.
  What is the real meaning of this Bill? Do the Government want to alter the Marketing Acts in order to do something about milk, or in order that the Potato Marketing Board may be started up again? Are they going to do anything about pigs, or is it to encourage the producers, from whom the initiative has to come, to organise and submit new schemes? We have heard about tomatoes and cucumbers. It is desirable that in some of these vegetable and fruit crops there should be marketing schemes. Although the Minister mentioned those, he gave no general encouragement. He did not say, "Now we have altered the Marketing Acts and made some improvements we, the Government, and I, the Minister of Agriculture, hope that producers will submit schemes." We can only infer, by the fact that he has introduced this Bill, that if the producers give

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  consideration to this matter, he might approve a scheme. There is this big doubt hanging over the situation of what he will do about the Lucas Report. I would press for some decision on that. It came out sometime in 1947, we are now in 1949, and it is still under consideration.
  This is the time to be getting our marketing arrangements for agricultural produce into order, for they are higgledy-piggledy at present. They were built up under the necessity of war time urgency. They are a combination of State trading, private enterprise, boards, suspended boards and subsidies, and there is no rhyme or reason in them. Of course, the subsidies affect the situation greatly, but those subsidies were created on no logical basis during the war. As far as I can understand, their principal object was to prevent the cost of living rising, and those commodities which were heavily weighted in the cost-of-living index established 50 years ago, often received the highest subsidies. That is alright for a war time makeshift, but it does not encourage the production of what we most need in this country, nor does it give any encouragement to quality production. Therefore the subsidies need review as a means of encouraging high class production of the commodities we most need. That is only an example. As I see it, our marketing arrangements for agricultural produce desperately need serious consideration, and must have it soon.
  I do not take quite the same view as the hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) about the Ministry of Food. I am sorry that the name of the Minister of Food is not on this Bill. As a long-term policy it would be much better to have the Ministries of Food and Agriculture combined, because they are two functions which should be combined. I want to see a prosperous agriculture—prosperous farmers and farm workers—but the object of producing food is that people should eat it and be well fed. It would be much better to have the conflict within one Ministry than between two Ministries, with all the departmentalism which that can involve. That is another big issue involving marketing, and I do not know why there is no representative of the Ministry of Food here today. If the law with regard to marketing agricultural produce is not a matter which interests the Ministry of Food,
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  what does? Surely they ought to be interested in it, and I wish they were here taking some responsibility for this Bill and hearing what hon. Members have to say on the subject.
  I, therefore, press the Government to think out a policy, if not for the whole range of agricultural products at least for some of the outstanding ones. We hear a good deal about market garden products, and about the supply of onions this Autumn and Winter. The Conservative Party always sees the problem of imports as the biggest problem, but those of us who were keen about the better marketing of British produce even when it was not so popular in the early 'thirties have always said that while imports may be a problem, and are, we will not solve that problem of competing with imports unless the marketing is right. The conclusion of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman was saying about onions is that the sooner we have a proper system of marketing onions within this country the better.
  There are two outstanding classes of products which need urgent consideration. One is the market garden products and the other is that big class of products, meat and livestock. Probably they need quite different treatment. I would not like to lay down anything definitely, and perhaps I should be straying too far from this Bill in going into that in any detail. We have so many agricultural schemes in cold storage today. We had a Livestock Marketing Commission before the war, established about 1937 to reorganise the markets of Great Britain. That was put on the shelf at the beginning of the war, but we still carry the weight of compensation to auctioneers and butchers and others in the trade who are still receiving compensation for having been put out of business by the Ministry of Food. Surely that is a matter of importance. When we talk in these astronomical figures of food subsidies, it may not seem such a big thing, but something ought to be done about it. Surely they ought to be paid off or dealt with in some way? I press the Government to think these matters out, because this time of prosperity, when food is scarce and is in great demand, is a time when we should get the organisation straightened out.
  Coming to the Bill itself, on what may be the only vexed question in it, Clause 4, I did not think that the Minister was

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  in his most convincing form today. It is my experience, from Committee stages and Second Readings, that when a Minister says, "You can trust me to use these powers reasonably," or, "I am not an unreasonable man," Members may always become suspicious that there is something too broad, too ill-defined, in the Bill, which can be defended only by relying on the good sense of the Minister. It is a cardinal principle of legislation that it is a bad offence to put into a Bill a Clause which is insufficient. I hope, therefore, that we shall hear something more about this.
  Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies, can give us a little more of the history of what has happened in the past under this type of Clause. I have tried to follow agricultural affairs fairly closely, but I should like to know what the history of investigations of the Marketing Acts has been. I do not know when the Minister has used these powers, or when complaints have been made under the old Marketing Acts. Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what sort of case, which could not but ought to have been dealt with, could not be dealt with because such a Clause as Clause 4 did not exist? I do not recollect any situation of that sort.
  It seems that the powers proposed in Clause 2 are rather strong, and that the Minister has the very great overriding power, if the tomatoes and cucumber board, for example, or some other board of that sort, raises prices too highly and a committee of investigation finds that to be so, of dissolving the board altogether. All this, together with the increased number on the board itself of his representatives who can give warning of what the Minister is doing, ought to be sufficient without the Minister's having to issue his peremptory orders at short notice.
  Mr. Paget: What is the point of having power to issue an order about a crop if that order can operate—or, indeed, the board be dissolved—only after the crop has been sold?
  Mrs. Manning: Exactly.
  Mr. Roberts: That is exactly what I was asking. There may be a case for it, but when has such an instance arisen?
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  Can the Parliamentary Secretary mention a case in which such powers ought to have been used?
  Mr. Paget: Are we to close the doors only when the horse has left?
  Mr. Roberts: No; but since 1931 we have had experience and evidence over a substantial number of years, and never has there been a case in which the Ministry has felt the need for this power. The case for the Government is not very strong but if the Parliamentary Secretary can give concrete examples, and not hypothetical possibilities, that on some future occasion a situation might arise I, for one, might be more satisfied.
  Mrs. Manning: Does not the hon. Member realise that up to the present we have not had this kind of board for perishable goods such as tomatoes, strawberries and that sort of thing? We have had boards for pigs, hops and milk, which are not the kind of things which would need to be dealt with in the way the Minister has suggested. The great difference is that this is a new power, and not an old one.
  Mr. Roberts: That may be a good argument, but I remember that at one time, there was whether rightly or wrongly, strong feeling about the price of hops. I was asking for particulars of such questions if they had arisen in the past. If this power is required because of perishable, seasonable crops, I think that the Government are trying to do two things: to have a marketing board which will be responsible and yet retain in the hands of the Ministry the ultimate responsibility for fixing the price. I doubt whether a board will function very well if it is to be over-ruled in that way, because it will not have a sense of responsibility.
  Clause 10 limits the powers of boards to lend money to producers. What money have boards lent to producers in the past? The question of finding capital for the increased programme of agriculture is very important. I think that under the European Recovery Programme we are expected to invest another £400 million in agriculture over the next few years. I do not know who is to invest that money or where it is to come from. To give one brief example, the Milk Marketing Board would be an excellent

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  organisation to lend money to milk producers to improve their production. It knows that milk producers have security for the milk which they supply to it. This limitation of the Act may not be very serious, but I would like some information of the history of this lending in the past. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary can say something about future intentions, and what the Government envisage will happen.
  I press the Government to proceed with this question of marketing. The agricultural community is now enjoying very much better times than it did before the war. They may not last indefinitely. Now is the time to get something done. As world food becomes more plentiful, as we hope soon it will, there will be more competition and greater emphasis on quality rather than merely on quantity. For these and other reasons I ask the Government to make a real effort to make up their mind. These questions are difficult, but the fact that they are difficult does not prove they are not important and that a decision is not urgently required.
  5.28 p.m.
  Mrs. Leah Manning: Had it not been for a small contretemps about prices, I think I would have been in entire agreement with everything which the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) said. The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale), who opened for the Opposition, stressed a matter which, we know, exists to some extent but which we all feel is rather painful. We should hate to feel that there is a real dichotomy between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Food. Nothing could be worse for the general position than the feeling that the Minister of Food was supporting the consumer and the Minister of Agriculture was supporting the producer as against the consumer. I know this point will be raised by hon. Members, probably from this side, but in these days I take the view very strongly, that the producer-consumer conflict does not exist in anything like the strength which it did at one time.
  I remember the days when it was felt that the man in the town wanted to get everything as cheaply as he possibly could. He forgot that to obtain produce somebody had to put his work and his capital into the business, and had to be
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  paid for producing it, and that workers had a right to be paid decent wages. There is a much greater understanding now, between people who live in urban areas and those in rural districts about the cost of food. It would be a bad thing, therefore, to have a conflict on this small Bill about the position of the consumer and to say that, because we have a producer-controlled board, the position of the consumer, therefore, will be entirely overlooked. I think that is a mistake and need not happen.
  I could not agree with the hon. Member for North Cumberland nor with the hon. and gallant Member for Richmond on the question of the new powers the Minister is to have under Clause 4. If we are to protect the consumer we need powers of that kind. The hon. and gallant Member chose the very poor example of strawberries, which are a most fragile crop. Suppose the price of strawberries went up to ls. a pound—I am speaking of normal times—that would obviously be too high, and the Minister should have the right, whilst the matter is still before the committee of investigation, to say that it is too high and to bring it down to 10d.; they could fight it out afterwards. I wish there was more buyers' resistance in this country because in that case they would stop buying highly priced perishable commodities altogether. I think the hon. Member for North Cumberland now realises that many of these perishable crops did not have marketing boards before but as we get more and more marketing boards it will be necessary for the Minister to have power to intervene in the case of perishable crops, rather than wait until the season is over.
  When I read the Bill I felt a slight conflict. When there is a producer-controlled board, one always wonders, whether the consumer will suffer. I feel, nevertheless, that it is absolutely vital in these days to persuade people to set up marketing boards on their own initiative. Then we shall have much less chaos in marketing and distribution. On the whole, I welcome this Measure, amending the old Act; giving new powers to the Minister and encouraging various kinds of producers to set up producer controlled boards. It is of great interest to me, as I represent a division in a county where horticulture is playing a great part. Before the war, in the County of Essex

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  there were 23,000 acres under vegetables, today there are 41,000 acres. In spite of restrictions, the acreage under glass has increased. It is one of the few counties where soft fruit production has increased; the acreage has gone up to something like 2,000 acres for those crops. Horticultural interests, especially in the Lea Valley are anxious to play their part in the four-year programme of development. This Measure gives them some kind of stability which was not afforded them in the great Agriculture Act brought in by the Government.
  They have not been slow to take advantage of this chance of stability. Something has been said about the tomato and cucumber board. The scheme is already in the hands of the Minister, and our growers are registered. They have had their committee of inquiry, and put their scheme in the hands of the Minister. I do not consider it an altogether satisfactory scheme, and I hope some amendments will be made. Small growers are very anxious about their position because their powers of representation on the board are on the basis of units of production. Naturally, a small grower feels he will be tied to the chariot of the big grower. I read their trade papers assiduously, and I know there has been considerable argument on that point. However, if the small growers put up a case the Minister will no doubt be able to do something about it.
  Now with regard to the Bill itself. On Clause 1, if the Minister has power to put on the boards people who are capable of giving directions to other members he should not only include people who represent financial and business interests. I was not joking when I said I hoped there would not be discrimination on the grounds of sex, for there is continually in this House discrimination on grounds of sex. One would imagine that the Convention on Human Rights had not been signed by this Government recently in Paris. The Minister could not find anyone more competent or suitable to advise a producer-controlled board than a good housewife, and I say that in all seriousness, Clause 4 strengthens the Minister's powers and, I hope, does away with some of the fears which exist in the minds of many hon. Members on this side of the House that
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  the position of the consumer is to be entirely overlooked. I hope we shall have good consumer advisory committees which will not be afraid to put before the committee of investigation anything they feel is wrong in connection with the producer-controlled boards. We have had experience of very good boards which have done magnificent work, the consumer has not suffered in the least.
  The Milk Marketing Board was spoken of as a satellite of the Ministry of Food. It was not always a satellite of the Ministry of Food as it existed before the Ministry, and it brought order out of complete chaos in the production, distribution and consumption of milk. When that Board was set up, milk was being fed to pigs and thrown down the drain, while children are literally starving for milk. For hon. Members who think that the consumer is bound to suffer there is an example of a board, entirely controlled, managed and worked by the producers, which has done fine and effective work for every class of the community, for producer, distributor and consumer alike.
  On Clause 9, the hon. Member for North Cumberland raised the question of good marketing in other countries. Denmark was a country which, at one time, was absolutely at the ebb of production. It is a small country and its soil was as bad as it could be, consisting of peat and bog and other poor quality land. What made it possible for Denmark to become one of the finest countries in the world for the export of dairy produce? Nothing so much as their marketing methods. Why were they able, before the war, to more than stand against this country's native production in the sale of their dairy products? Perhaps I ought to be ashamed of it, but I was certainly not alone among British housewives in choosing Danish bacon before the war. It looked well, and was very well prepared. Their bacon and eggs were well marketed, and it was the same with everything that came from Denmark. If we are to hold our position in our own markets with goods from abroad, we must present and market our goods as well as our competitors do. That we can best do through the new producer-controlled boards which are being set up.

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  I am glad the new boards will have more power to do things than they have had up to the present, particularly in the case of horticulture. There is much to be said for the possibility of storing, by "quick freeze" and other methods, soft fruits and vegetables of various kinds. I hope that the producer boards will have enough money at their disposal to be able to do that kind of thing. I hope that out of the great sum of money which is being put aside by the Government for the four year agricultural programme some will be available for the producer boards to be devoted to storage, to provide us in a small kind of way with a "Joseph scheme" by means of which we can store in times of glut against the times when things are out of season, or when we have a poor season. These are all matters which are of great value from the point of view of stability in horticulture, and which will give that great industry a stability which was not afforded it by the 1947 Agriculture Act. For that reason, and on behalf of many of my constituents, I welcome the Bill.
  5.41 p.m.
  Mr. York: I think I shall pick up most of the points which the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) made, but I would say, as my general impression of her speech, that she has tried to show a balanced judgment as between the consumer and the producer in this matter of marketing, which is not always the approach of some of her colleagues.
  I wish to talk much more about the fundamental principles of marketing than about the details of the Bill. I would first say that unlike the hon. Member for Northumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), I believe that the first essential condition under which agricultural marketing can flourish, under which agricultural marketing boards can either come into existence or remain in existence, is that the commodity is protected against over-importation of foreign surpluses. I am convinced that this is the first and most important condition for agricultural marketing. That condition is fulfilled today, at least so far as the commodities contained in the First Schedule of the Measure are concerned, but it is not fulfilled in the case of those commodities which are not in the First Schedule. That
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  is a great danger, and one to which I shall return in a moment.
  The second condition is that the producers, the people who actually grow the products, should understand the purpose of the scheme and should also accept the need for a marketing board. I believe that condition is fulfilled today in the great majority of cases. I am not as yet convinced that it is fulfilled in the case of small growers of horticultural produce. I have made some inquiries about this point, and there is a great deal of nervousness upon it, but, by and large, the psychological battle of getting the producers to accept co-operative marketing is over. They are willing and anxious to get on with the job of organising the boards.
  The third condition, which may be more controversial, is that these boards cannot flourish where there is Government price control, and this applies in particular to commodities which are not in the First Schedule, especially soft fruit and vegetables. Today, we have a hopeful picture of the producer's outlook. We have had 16 years of continuous progress on the part of marketing boards—the giving of more and better services to their members. To follow up that progress the Government produce this Bill. So far as I can see it is a hotch-potch of the recommendations of the Falmouth Committee, some of the less objectionable recommendations of the Lucas Report, and the usual Socialist admixture, which is that no one can do anything without a strong admixture of Government interference.
  I was surprised when I heard the Minister say "We are satisfied that further powers of control are necessary." I am indeed sorry to find the Minister of Agriculture setting himself up as one of the exponents of more controls for the agricultural industry. We had been hoping that he would perhaps be inclined the other way. Apart from that, I will at once accept that this Bill, so far as it goes, is a return to the principles of the Marketing Acts. But we have a very unpleasant background, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) mentioned—the Lucas Committee Report—which opposes a return to agricultural marketing, and seeks to set up in its place the vast bureaucracy of what it calls an independent body or

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  commodity commission. No one except the Government knows what their long-term policy is; I am not altogether sure that they know. But if the Government have decided that policy it is only right and fair that they should tell the industry what that policy is before this Bill is put on the Statute Book.
  As I see the position the Government appear to be hiding their policy at the moment, to keep, I presume, the National Farmers' Union quiet with the small, and so far as I can see, not very fundamental Measure which is before the House. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to make clear at least the point whether it is the Government's long-term policy to return to the Marketing Acts, leaving the producers in control of agricultural marketing or whether it is not. When we are discussing agricultural marketing the House and the industry are entitled to have an answer to that plain question. I realise that in answering it the Parliamentary Secretary might have to be bold enough to say that he rejects the Lucas Committee idea of a commission—but perhaps that would be impolitic at present.
  As the Bill is drafted it leaves the door wide open, as I was glad to see the Minister admitting, for the Lucas Commodity Commission to be brought into agricultural marketing, and for producers' control of their own board to be taken away, at least after the wholesale stage. The Minister was most open about what his views were upon this matter, when he said in his peroration, that the Bill does not prejudice any decision of the Government upon this matter. I can only presume that this policy is being kept in cold storage for the General Election. If that is the case I urge the National Farmers' Union not to go to sleep over this Measure but to regard it with as much suspicion as I do.
  I wish to state a proposition with which we all agree, and perhaps to go a little further than the Minister in what he said about the right policy for agricultural marketing. I would agree entirely with the Minister when he said that the producer has the exclusive right to market his produce up to the wholesale stage, and that after that stage he has a continuing but not exclusive interest. I would go further and say
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  that where producers combine together to set up a co-operative marketing scheme and acquire monopoly rights under the Marketing Act, then they also and at the same time acquire a duty to give a fair deal both to the consumer and to the distributor. I think that rather completes the proposition which the Minister made.
  As against that we have the suspicion engendered by the Lucas Committee's Report, because they say that neither producers nor distributors, nor the Minister of Food for that matter, should have anything whatever to do with marketing, but, instead, that marketing should be run by State corporations, independent bodies. The point I now wish to argue is that agricultural marketing can only be run by a vast commercial undertaking, and that whatever else one may say about these independent bodies set up by the Government it cannot be said that they are very successful as vast commercial undertakings. The Lucas Committee suggest that marketing should be run by another sort of Coal Board, or worse still, a whole series of coal boards I cannot imagine anything more obnoxous than that. The reason why they do not work is the reason why marketing boards will work, and do work.
  In the first instance the independent State-controlled bodies are, so far as the members of the body is concerned, much more concerned with the political and Treasury criticism than with anything else; they are certainly deaf to consumer criticisms. Similarly, the workers under those boards, the workers in the industries, are concerned far too much with better wages, conditions and so on. As a consequence the boards cease to become vast commercial undertakings. As the alternative to this we claim that agricultural marketing boards must work in the public interest and also must remain large commercial undertakings although, at the same time, they also remain, and must remain, subject to Parliamentary control.
  The reasons for this are quite plain. First, the elected members of the boards have themselves a deep personal interest in the success of the commercial venture. Second, the workers in that industry, in this case the producers, are vitally concerned that the board should remain a

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  successful and a highly efficient commercial organisation. These remarks remain true whether the commodities fall within the First Schedule to the Agriculture Act or not, because the House will recollect that the assurances and guarantees given in that Act apply only to that quantity of production which, in the opinion of the Government, it is in the interests of the nation to have produced. That is a very important point.
  The main incentive of the producers is to maintain and increase the need, that is to say, the demand; and that can only be done by the wholehearted commercial drive of a sectional interest. I believe that that was the underlying cause of the success of these boards where they were successful in the past. I would also say, in passing, that these remarks remain true whether the market is a sellers' market or a buyers' market, because the producers' incentive remains the same, to increase demand. Therefore, I support the main principle of the Marketing Acts and, so far as we can see it, of this Bill, if it is the long-term policy of the Government. But if, as I now think, and, as I believe, all my hon. Friends now think, it is not the long-term policy, but only a minor part then all I can say is that it carefully guards the, door against encroachment by producers into the real producer control of marketing.
  Under Clause 16 of this Bill the Minister of Agriculture is perfectly capable—or, rather, is able, I should not say capable—to keep all marketing boards on ice until the Government secret policy is announced. As to new schemes, he can so amend any schemes presented to him that they do not conflict with this secret policy. I think we have the right to say that if the Government has not these evil intentions then the massive new armoury of powers which it has taken, the suspicions of the Lucas Report, and indeed much of the talkings and writings of Left-Wing propagandists leave very fertile ground on which these suspicions could grow.
  I wish also to refer to the mistrust which the hon. Lady the Member for Epping dealt with, the mistrust of the public to producer control of marketing. She is quite right, up to a point, that there was a vast amount of distrust, but only up to a point. That distrust was not so much in the mind of the public,
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  but in the minds of distributors. It was perhaps the distributors' voice that was heard rather than the consumers'. These distributor interests and others have for years fostered the belief that agricultural marketing boards acted against the public interest. I believe they have done it deliberately in the past, and I hope that they will not do it again. The Minister of Agriculture knows perfectly well—he has all the facts at his disposal—that this is a complete fallacy. No proof is ever offered, and, indeed, no proof can be offered because no evidence whatever exists. If there had been any evidence of it it would have been produced in the Lucas Committee's Report, for that Committee was undoubtedly prejudiced against producer control of marketing. I state categorically that these agricultural marketing boards must act in the public interest, because if they did not so act they would very quickly become unpopular, both with the electors and, perhaps for our purpose more important, with the Press, and that an immediate move would be made to revoke the scheme under the 1931 Act.
  Therefore, why does the Minister of Agriculture lend his support to this contention by bringing forward the savage powers of Clause 4? As my hon. Friend has said, in the case of soft fruits they would cause, if they were used, a fantastic amount of loss to the producers and there is no time whatever for the board to make an appeal, as the Clause now stands, against an order made by the Minister. It is quite unjust and unfair, and I hope that at a later stage we shall voice our very strong criticism, and bring this Clause to an end. I will not say anything further than my hon. Friend has said about the abolition of the market supply committee, because I think he dealt adequately with it. I believe it was a very great mistake to do away with this committee. In addition to the arguments he raised, I would stress that we do not on this side of the House accept that the continuance of the Ministry of Food is essential for the wellbeing of the country.
  My final point is about the setting up of marketing schemes for the more difficult commodities such as soft fruits and vegetables. Until a short time ago, I was under the strong impression that the setting up of these boards would not be

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  practical. However, I have been able to obtain some very good advice which leads me to the conclusion that there are possibilities for marketing boards in this respect. But they should be of an entirely different type to any which now exist or which existed in the pass. First, they must be extremely local. The only need for a central body is for market intelligence. There is one point which, as far as I know, has not been widely canvassed. One of the powers which I believe it will be essential for these boards to possess will be the power to set up market halls in the towns.
  I understand that under the local charters and by-laws it is impossible to set up market halls in certain towns without the consent of the local authority. As local authorities may not wish an outside body to take marketing space within their towns, there will have to be, in the legislation—or possibly it may be allowed within the schemes—powers for the boards to go into the towns and set up marketing halls of their own. We want to see these schemes extended. We want to see producer controlled marketing continued. I hope that the long-term policy of the Government—even though we turn a blind eye to it during our consideration of this Bill—will not uproot what I believe to be the essentials of agricultural marketing.
  6.3 p.m.
  Mr. Royle: It is inevitable that in a Debate of this kind the majority of those who seek to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, will be representatives of agricultural constituencies or Members who have agricultural interests. Since I have the honour to represent a constituency which has not one farm in the whole of its area, which has probably very few blades of grass and certainly no cows to milk, it is likely that my point of view about this Bill will be very different from that expressed by the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York). I know that his interests are in the agricultural community. Therefore, he and I will not see eye to eye on the future of agricultural marketing. I suppose again that it is inevitable in a discussion of this nature that we must talk to some degree about the Lucas Report. That report is so closely bound up with this Bill that we cannot ignore it. There have been a lot
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  of speculations about the intentions of the Government on the Lucas Report. Frankly, I am disappointed that today we are discussing a Bill which does not go deeper into the terms of the Lucas Report than this one does.
  It appears to me that the report is divided into two parts. There is the part which is covered by the terms of reference and the part on which the committee appointed their own terms of reference. Therefore, we find ourselves today discussing a Measure which is taken very largely from that part of the terms of reference dictated by the Ministry of Agriculture. The other part is ignored completely at this stage. I do not complain that the Lucas Committee went deeper into the subject than their terms of reference prescribed. I am convinced that there are strong arguments for having the whole gamut of agricultural marketing and distribution thoroughly examined and overhauled. Therefore, my disappointment is most keen that now we only have the opportunity of considering what were the obvious matters for immediate attention arising from the Lucas Report.
  As far as it goes in a general sense, this Bill does a good job of work. I have, however, one very big concern. It is one which has been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning), though my approach is rather different. My concern is in the fact that the National Farmers' Union are, within the terms of this Bill, to be the sole arbiters with regard to these boards. I do not want to say anything derogatory of the farming interests under the National Farmers' Union. I know the important part they are now playing and the more important part they will be expected to play in the nation's economy in the days ahead. I am conscious of the necessity for encouragement, incentive and assistance to be given to the farmers in the great endeavours we are asking them to make. But I say definitely that there is a great tendency on the part of the Ministry of Agriculture, and on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite particularly, to pander too much to the National Farmers' Union. As a representative of an industrial constituency, I feel this very deeply. It needs some courage to make these comments, but it appears to me that there is room for them to be be made.

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  In Clause 1 the composition of the boards is suggested. We can appreciate that it is possible for 24 members, as a total maximum, to be on a marketing board and that of that number the Minister has the right to nominate four. From where does the Minister get those members? He gets them from persons experienced in commerce, finance, administration, public affairs and the organisation of workers. That is a large field from which to find four people out of the 24 who are to sit on an agricultural committee. The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) indicated that that might be too much, and that the Minister in asking for four out of 24 was demanding more than the agricultural community thought right. The Opposition appear to think that that is too much. Are the members of the National Farmers' Union the only people who know anything about marketing? Does nobody else know anything at all about it? What about the consumer?
  Reference has been made to the Milk Marketing Board and its great success. When the Milk Marketing Board was set up, did they go to the producer to find the general manager? They went to a distributing organisation. I suggest one of the reasons for the success of the Milk Marketing Board has been that appointment, and the producer experience that resulted. What about the great distributive sections of the food industry? In the realms of the private retailers, the Co-operative societies and the multiple firms, and even, in some cases, in the experience of the wholesaler, there is a great wealth of knowledge and experience that ought to be used, not only to assist the producer, but to assist the Ministry and the country as a whole. Therefore, I am pressing for very much wider representation on the producer boards than is indicated by the terms of the Bill.
  I feel that two mistakes are being made. Firstly, we are failing to take advantage of knowledge and experience which is there to be tapped, and, secondly, we are placing too much privilege and power in the hands of one organisation, because that is what it means. There is no guarantee that the farm workers are going to be members of the consumer board. Nominations will be from the National Farmers' Union, and the agricultural workers' organisations will have a very small chance of being represented
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  on the board, yet those are the very people upon whom we are calling for further efforts, without any guarantee that their representatives will be nominated to the boards when they are set up. So I believe that, because of the fact that these are producer boards, there should be first and foremost the consumer consideration.
  When the N.F.U. indicates, as it has done, that if the other parts of the Lucas Report were in any way implemented. they would want representation down to the retail level, then the consumer and the distributor has an equal right to say that they desire representation upon the boards. I would say to the N.F.U. and their supporters that they cannot have it both ways, and that, if they want representation down to the retail level in any future schemes to come before the country, they must also admit the right to representation on the producer boards of the distributors and the consumers. Appreciating that this Bill at this time does not seek to go as far as many of us would have desired it to go, I hope that, before the Committee stage, my right hon. Friend will consider the possibility of wider representation.
  The farmers of Britain today are, as always, one of the most important communities in our national life, but that does not, in my estimation, give them the right to be the sole controllers, not only of production, but of marketing and distribution. I believe that there will have to be a closer co-operation between all sections of the food industries and the general public, and I hope that opportunity will be given, either in this Bill or in one to follow it very quickly, to bring about that co-operation.
  6.14 p.m.
  Mr. Snadden: I think there has been a great deal of unfair criticism of the work of our Marketing Boards in the past. The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) paid a compliment to the Milk Marketing Board, but it was quite obvious from what he said that his interest was much more on the distributor side than on the consumer side. I think we should recognise that these boards, launched out many years ago on uncharted seas, did much pioneering work that had to be done at that time. Not only has the Milk Marketing Board done wonderful work in the interests of the

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  whole country, but the Potato Marketing Board has done a grand job. I have no personal knowledge of the English Milk Marketing Board's work, but if it was as good as that of the Scottish Board I think we can be proud of the work it has done. I think we should admit that their work was pioneering work, and that a great deal of unfair criticism has been levelled against them, particularly in the Lucas Report. Had the war not intervened, these boards would now have become firmly established, and be giving a very good service to the community. For that reason, I was glad to hear the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) pay a compliment to the work done by the Milk Marketing Boards.
  Coming to this Bill, I am inclined to think it is rather a dishonest Bill, although I know my friends in Scotland, for whom I speak, came to the conclusion that there was nothing very dangerous about it. We all know that there is a real need today to tidy up our marketing system, and restore the confidence of our producers in their marketing organisation. It has been suggested to me that there was to be no drastic change in the shape or form of our marketing system in future, and, for that reason, there was considerable relief in Scotland on the part of producers and the Milk Marketing Board that the Government had apparently been persuaded against legislating on the lines of the extremely controversial Lucas and other reports.
  When I listened to the Minister, and heard his admissions, I felt that this business of uncertainty about the Lucas Report will be the major factor arising out of this Measure. I feel that the Minister has shaken the confidence of the agricultural producers of this country by threatening to hold this great sword over their heads at some later date. My hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. York) has suggested that the whole scheme is ready for the final Act when it comes along, and it looks to me as if another Measure which is 100 per cent. Lucas Report will follow upon this Bill. Some may like it, and some may not, but I think it would be very much more courageous if the Minister had come out into the open and told us precisely what we are to get, instead of giving us a "hotch-potch," as the Bill has been
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  described by my hon. Friend the Member for Ripon.
  Not enough was said about this question of consultation, and, if I heard the speech of my right hon. and gallant Friend correctly, he seemed to suggest that possibly this question of consultation could be dealt with under Section 2 of the 1931 Act. I am talking about the Minister's appointees. When I look at the Bill, I find that Section 2 of the 1931 Act was repealed. That Section does not exist, having been repealed by the 1933 Act in Section 14, which, in its turn, is being repealed in this Bill. If that is so, it is correct to say that there is, in fact, no provision at all for any consultation by the Minister with the producers concerned, and, if that be the case, it may possibly lead to discord. Of course, I am sure that the Minister will answer and say, "I shall consult the various organisations of producers concerned." If that is to be the case, why should he not say so in this Bill, just as it was stated in the previous Act?
  The second point to which we in Scotland are objecting is one which has already been made several times today. We have heard about the increase of power given under Clauses 2 and 4, whereby the Minister can serve directions with provision for an appeal by the Board to the committee of investigation, though, meanwhile, the Minister is able to give temporary directions. That is the whole point. It is quite true that under the Act of 1947—which contains the Schedule of guaranteed commodities—the Minister provides himself with a reason for serving a direction in respect of a guaranteed commodity. He may have the matter referred to the investigation committee, but, of course, when that committee reports, he does not necessarily have to accept their report. That is a very great power. I concede that it may be necessary to have that power because of the fact that the Government take the whole responsibility in respect of prices guaranteed under the Schedule of the Act of 1947. But a very different position exists when we turn to the non-guaranteed commodities. We have heard about strawberries, cucumbers, and tomatoes.
  There are other commodities which are not guaranteed in the First Schedule.

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  Wool, for example, is not guaranteed; the Government ran away from wool, and failed to put it into the Act. It does not only apply to strawberries. We have the position that while, in the end, the Minister has to abide by the final decision of the investigation committee, great financial hardship may be placed upon the producers in the interval. I do not propose to go into detail; a simple example is tomatoes. If the price fixed by the Board were 2s. 6d., and the Minister decided it was to be 2s., I am informed that, by the time the committee reported, something like three months would have elapsed. What is to happen to the tomatoes in the meantime? When the report is received and the Minister is proved to have been wrong, what is to happen then? Is it a case of "Heads I win and tails you lose" every time? What about the loss suffered by the producer?
  As the Government take no responsibility, through their price fixing arrangement, for ensuring tomato producers a reasonable price, I cannot see any possible argument in favour of the Minister serving directions in respect of a commodity for which he has no responsibility whatever. This is a thing which really must be cleared up. The Minister certainly has adequate reason in respect of the guaranteed commodities, but we in Scotland take serious exception to the Minister taking this power in respect of a commodity for which he has no possible responsibility. For that reason, I support what was said earlier in the Debate by my hon. Friend. Surely, the people on the Board dealing with tomatoes and cucumbers will have expert knowledge of all the problems of production. They are not going to do anything from a political or ulterior point of view which will be prejudicial to the national interest. It seems to me that this is a Clause which should be either amended or deleted, or upon which some assurance should be given that the Government would undertake to meet the compensation payable to the producer because of the loss he sustained owing to the Minister giving a wrong direction. It could only be a wrong direction if it were not upheld by the investigation committee.
  Very little has been said about Clause 5. It may be that I am taking a minority view about the terms of this Clause in regard to the imposition of penalties.
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  These penalties are to be decided by disciplinary committees. The independent chairman presiding over these committees will have special legal knowledge. I am aware that the Falmouth Committee recommended that this should be so, but it does not seem to me to be fair that, even though there is a neutral chairman, the rest of the committee should all be members of the board, and, therefore, both judge and plaintiff in their own case. When a producer on whom a penalty has been placed comes before these people, he is coming before people who are prejudiced because of the fact that they are all members of the board and can override the neutral chairman, even though he has legal knowledge. That does not seem to me to be British justice. We should either say, quite frankly, that the board shall be the disciplinary committee with a right of appeal to a higher tribunal or that there shall be a completely independent and impartial tribunal to settle these matters.
  There is one other matter which has a specific bearing on the Scottish Clause, and I would like the Scottish Minister to have a look at a suggestion I propose to make. Clause 8 (2) provides for stated cases on points of law being laid before the Court of Session. Why the Court of Session? To Scotsmen this seems unnecessary, and unnecessarily expensive. Why not the sheriff's court? At the moment the sheriff's court is functioning—and has been for a considerable time—very satisfactorily in similar circumstances. It deals with arbitration on agricultural matters in which far greater sums are involved than will ever be involved in regard to a trivial penalty imposed upon a producer. It does not seem to me that this is any real redress at all, because the producer will not involve himself in all the expense in appearing before the Supreme Court of Scotland over a question of this sort. It seems ridiculous to involve superior courts in such matters, with all the additional expense to the disciplinary committee, the boards, and the producers. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should consult his superior, the Secretary of State for Scotland, on this particular point. There is objection to it from legal quarters in Scotland.
  The only other Scottish point I wish to put forward is in relation to Clause 12. I make this point because representations

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  have been made to me about the definition of agricultural products in that Clause. The Skinners' Association of Scotland have disagreed in respect of the definition there, and if the hon. Gentleman has received any representations from them to the effect that they wish skin-wool to be left out because this is a special kind of production, I hope he will be prepared to discuss this matter on the Committee stage. Those are some of the criticisms from the Scottish point of view.
  I will end by saying that I cannot think of anything of more importance to the agricultural industry than the question of marketing. Last year, I had the privilege of going to Sweden where I saw what I consider to be the most effective form of marketing now in existence. The Swedish marketing system came into being, I understand, because of the fear of State control. An inquiry into the marketing system of Sweden produced what is, in effect, a most efficient organisation. It is controlled by the producers, and seems to serve both producer and consumer alike to the satisfaction of both.
  I hope these boards will continue and that they will take into account the lessons of the past, and of the war, in, for example, the sphere of marketing about which I know most, the marketing of livestock. The collecting centres set up by the Coalition Government when war broke out should certainly not be swept away. We have made great advances in that sphere, and I hope the lessons will be taken into account. If they are, I am sure the producers will give a service within the ambit of the Marketing Acts far superior to any system of State control, with its army of bureaucrats and its vast extravagance. If we get decent co-operation, we shall be able to give the country a first-class service provided we do not get the Lucas report at a later date. Again, I stress the uncertainty that will arise over this.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mrs. Ganley: I agree that it is essential that the marketing boards shall be brought into being. When we look at the Bill we find it has certainly considered the interests of the producers very carefully indeed. All of us would say it is essential that some regular form of marketing should be offered to the
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  producers but, as has already been said, the necessity for allowing distributors and consumers to have some voice and some opportunity of co-operation in the development of this most essential service is also important. When we look at the situation in 1931 and 1933, when the original Agricultural Marketing Acts were brought into operation, we remember very well that at that time the suggestion was made that there should be producers' boards and distributors' boards and that consumers should also have representation and opportunity of consultation. Had that been done it would have created a feeling of satisfaction that the whole of the people who needed to use agricultural produce were being given an opportunity of real consultation.
  The Milk Marketing Board has been mentioned this evening and I want to emphasise that this has been the most successful marketing board in all the work which has been done. The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) has referred to the manager who was chosen for that board. He was not a producer but was a man who had close associations with and very deep knowledge of distribution, and as a result of his associations with the situation before the Milk Marketing Board came into existence he was a person appreciated by them and he was offered the post. He has described that organisation as the greatest co-operative effort ever undertaken in this country. It was a board which had to deal sometimes with people who were not fully appreciative of the work which was being done for the ultimate service of the whole of the nation. The work was not always perhaps well received. It was of inestimable benefit.
  I should like to draw attention to the fact that most of us feel some disappointment in that, while we recognise the necessity for marketing boards, we hoped that when they were brought into being they, too, would be a great co-operative effort. Producers obviously are essentially interested in the particular commodities with which they are dealing, but we also hoped that the distributors and consumers would be able to have consultation, bringing the best ultimate service to the whole of the population.

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  Attention has already been drawn to the fact that the first Clause says that unless there are special reasons, the Minister shall appoint not less than two and not more than one-fifth of the total number of the members and that the Minister's selection shall be from those who have
  "shown capacity in commerce, finance, administration, public affairs or the organisation of workers."
  Following comments which have been made in this House on a number of occasions, I want to ask that the Minister should carefully consider organisations of consumers because quite often comments which are made here mean that the great organisations of consumers in this country, some ten million strong, are not always considered as coming within
  "commerce, finance, administration, public affairs or the organisation of workers."
  In view of the fact that experience has been very widely gathered in the consumers' organisations I hope it will be possible for the Minister to look at the situation again and to consider either that there is a special reason for enlarging the board to more than 24 members or to include in the sphere of selection organisations of consumers. One particular organisation of consumers with which I have no association at the present time—although I have had some association with it—had, for its own protection, to institute grading plant in order that certain commodities which were coming from the producer could be graded and presented to the consumer in the best possible manner.
  A Bill of this kind will give to the boards the power of introducing all the necessary equipment which will be useful to the producer such as grading plant and packing arrangements. All of us entirely agree that it will be of benefit to the particular commodity, presenting it in a very much better way, preserving it, and helping in every way. With the increased powers which the board will have in this direction I want to ask what is to be the determining factor in deciding what is public interest. An hon. Member said it should be possible for the marketing boards to introduce marketing halls. If marketing halls are introduced—and it is the sort of thing one could very well visualise as arising out of the com
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  plete powers which are given in this Bill—would it be possible for the existing distributors to be taken into consultation? Could we have the co-operative effort that it is possible to visualise, with the producer producing goods and the distributor and the representatives of the consumer knowing what the demand was and knowing how consistent it is today? If the producer is to be helped, he must know what is the demand, where it exists and where it is most strongly felt; he must know where to send goods in order to meet the demand. Is it to be a question of conflicting interests being developed in that way? It is possible for the conflicting interests which might occur in the future to be brought together in the beginning and that might ease the situation very much indeed.
  In his speech the Minister spoke of the advisory bodies to be brought into existence and I was very glad to hear his reference to that fact. As the Bill itself tells us, "if it appears to the Minister that the result, or one of the results" is contrary to the public interest, then the Minister may act. I think we may wonder whether the monopoly powers that are being given through this Bill may not at some time cut across the interests of consumers. We may wonder if there may not be some of the difficulties that have arisen in the past, and which we, as consumers, have known very well indeed. For instance, producers have desired to follow their products through all the stages to that at which they reached the consumers, and there has been the question of producers fixing the amount of distribution, and the avenues of distribution, and prices. I wonder whether that may not at some time be contrary to public interest. The only person who could raise questions of that kind would be the consumer. Therefore, when the Minister said that consumers would have the opportunity of drawing his attention to anything that was not in the public interest I was very comforted.
  I hope, therefore, that the situation will be considered. I hope, comforted by what the Minister said to us—that this is not intended to be such a great monopoly power for the marketing boards—that there may be a very much wider co-operative effort. The Lucas Committee, the Williams Committee, and the various different suggestions that have been made,

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  have been mentioned. I should like to see a co-operative effort by which consumers' needs may be known from the beginning, so that efforts may be made to meet those needs, and to avoid a great deal of conflict that may arise, or, at any rate, that appears to be feared by hon. Members opposite. The Measures relating to agriculture that have been passed by this Government have been passed for the encouragement of the producer in agriculture, certainly; and the Minister is the Minister of Agriculture; but one certainly cannot visualise that division of interests that is feared. That division of interests could not come so much from the Minister as from the persons who might fear they were not, perhaps, getting the fairest deal they might have expected from the help that is being given by the country to the producers today.
  So I would ask that some greater power of co-operation be given to the consumers under the Bill. I would ask that the organised consumers should be considered by the Minister and by the boards. I would ask it for the reason that I feel quite sure that prevention is better than cure. If we can get the whole of the people working together to make the best possible use of the land and for the greatest possible measure of production for the use and satisfaction of the public, then I am quite sure that this Bill will be a very useful one, but I hope that the consumers will have the opportunity of consultation so that the best use may be made of the marketing boards.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. Beechman: I am very glad that we have had speeches today from people on the other side of the House who primarily take an interest in industrial centres. I am glad of that, because one of the most important things is that the cities and large towns should understand the value of agriculture. As the Minister of Agriculture has rightly said, agriculture is not one industry; it is a series of industries. I must say, however, that although I had some sympathy with what the hon. Lady the Member for South Battersea (Mrs. Ganley) said about consumers' representations and the possibilities of co-operation, to which I shall refer later, I disagree with the hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) who thought that the National
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  Farmers' Union was showing too much favour to agricultural interests and not considering the cities. I think that probably the National Farmers' Union has done its best to keep an even balance between the two interests. However, I wish to speak perfectly plainly today—as, indeed, I hope we all always do—and say that it has not over-emphasised the needs and the potentialities of the agricultural industry as a whole. It has not emphasised the character of the industry as well as the importance of nutrition.
  I find in the Bill much that is good, much that is uncertain, and much that may be very bad indeed. In so far as there is, undoubtedly, a great deal in the Bill that is good, we of the Opposition are not dividing against the Bill. In so far, however, as there are uncertainties, and in so far as this Bill does make possible what I would regard as a disaster to the industry, I think that it is our duty in this House to make that clear to those who follow these Debates. Coming, as I do, from West Cornwall and the Isles, I am particularly concerned with horticulture. Here, I must say that we must make up our minds on this question: are we to have a horticultural industry, are we to have an agricultural industry, or are we not? That is the thought I would put to those responsible for this Bill and, perhaps, other Measures of the sort.
  We must make up our minds about this question. If we think it right to have a horticultural and agricultural industry in this country, then we must have special Measures to support that industry. It seems to me that we dither around with one expedient here—that, in itself, may be necessary—and other expedients there, and never make up our minds whether we are really determined that this country shall be, as to part of its character, a horticultural and agricultural land, with a flourishing community of farm workers, farmers, smallholders and landlords. By the way, I am not al all unsympathetic to the proposal that farm workers should find places on the boards. What I want to see is a definite policy for agriculture as a whole, and not only a policy but a determination in this House—I think there is on this side of the House—that agriculture really matters very much inded to this country, and that it shall—as it will—matter more

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  in the future than it has mattered for many years past.
  Clause 2 of the Bill gives power to the board to deal with "regulated products." I have searched the Bill, and I am not at all sure what the word "regulated" means. It may mean nothing. It may mean regulated at home; it may mean regulated in regard to foreign imports. All I do know is that, as the hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) pointed out, in his most helpful speech, under Section 3 of the 1933 Act, the Marketing Supply Committee, which was set up to regulate imports, has been abolished. Therefore, I ask myself—and we really must have a plain answer to this question—what does the word "regulated" now imply? Does it merely mean that we are to regulate marketing to certain forms of produce, or does it mean that we arc to face the fact that we must regulate imports, certainly horticultural and agricultural imports, if the industry is to survive?
  I do not see this matter at all as the old-fashioned war between tariffs and free trade. I think it is really a question of planning—although I hate the word—according to what is really happening. Let us see what is really happening. My right hon. Friend referred to broccoli and cauliflowers, and he spoke of a licence being granted. I am speaking on a subject which I happen to know something about. The situation is that Italian broccoli is now in our shops. Hon. Members opposite may think that is a jolly good thing for the people of this country, but I will tell them that it is not. I do not look at this matter from a narrow horticultural point of view. I have a small holding, but I do not think I shall be producing broccoli. The point is that Italian broccoli and cauliflower are far more expensive in the shops than our own. Our own are being thrown away.
  We have been officially encouraged to grow cauliflower in the West. It will be there in the coming months. It is our great season, and yet, for reasons which have nothing to do with agriculture at all, the Italians have been encouraged to introduce into this country cauliflower which is excessively expensive to the consumer, and which is helping to ruin the producer. It must be remembered that the Italians have certain advantages
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  which we have not, but some of those advantages could be made good. Their seed is better than ours. They have a chance to cultivate their seed. We have a scheme for cultivating seed for broccoli, but the onus of it has been put upon the farmers. I am not saying that seed will not play a part in time, but I think we shall have to think again if the seed which we have in this country is to be as good as the Italian seed. We have plenty of places in this country where we can grow and develop seed. We certainly have plenty of places in our own Empire where we can do the like. That is one of the most important things to be done.
  Then there are the questions of packing and grading. We are developing schemes of our own—it is our duty to pack and to grade properly—but I think we may rely too much on the rather more easy going system which existed during the war. It must be remembered that many countries have actually subsidised the imports which they bring here. What the Italians do—and I give this simply as an example of many other imports; indeed, it is a lesson in the whole field of economics—is to pick out the very best of their cauliflower and send it to this country. It looks most appetising, it is packed in a way in which we are unable to pack our own produce, and, naturally, tempts the housewife who wants to find something tempting for the family to eat in these days. I do not know why the Minister looks so aggrieved.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. George Brown): I was so shocked at what the hon. and learned Gentleman has just said—that we cannot pack our stuff in that way. Will he say, in defence of his own constituents, why we cannot?
  Mr. Beechman: I was about to say that the obtaining of containers, after a lot of pushing, is now easier. I know the position perfectly well. The Italians have had, and still have, advantages—and if the Minister can answer this it will help us all—over us which we very greatly need in regard to packing. I think the Minister and I agree that what has to be done in this country is that there should be proper packing, and that the materials for proper packing should be available.
  I was saying that the Italians—and I take them only as an example because

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  this is happening in the whole economic field—send to this country the very best and finest looking cauliflower they can get hold of, and put it into our shops. That is what is happening in the world at the moment to a very large extent. People are sending away from their own countries the very best things they can produce. In short, we are taking in each other's washing to that extent. That may be necessary; I think it is necessary in the situation in which we have got, but I think that if we go on too long, we shall wash out each other's takings. In this Bill there is mention of research. A great deal of research is going on, and we are grateful for it, but I am told that because of the shortage of paper it is impossible for people to be informed of the conclusions come to and the experiments made. I hear this in many quarters, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will see that where valuable researches can be undertaken, as they have been, the results are made known to those who can benefit from them.
  This Bill may be said to do nothing in particular. Whether it does it well or not we do not know. What matters is how the Bill is worked, whether it is worked well or ill. It is a Bill which, to some extent, any party might have introduced, and we hope it will be worked well. I am sure that the intention of everyone is that it should be worked well. I am not a believer in nationalisation, except in certain instances, which have been impressed upon me—I make that perfectly plain—but I see in this Bill that under Clause 2 (2d) and Clause 9 it is possible to nationalise the whole industry. It can be decided what shall be produced and to whom the produce shall go; under Clause 9 the State has power to take over anything it likes.
  Mr. Brown: To which Clauses is the hon. Member referring?
  Mr. Beechman: I was referring first of all to Clause 2, and then to Clause 9. Clause 2 limits
  "the classes of persons to whom or through the agency of whom the regulated product"—
  whatever that means—
  "or any description or quantity thereof, or any commodity produced therefrom, is sold, whether by registered producers or by other persons."
  Then under Clause 9—
  Mr. Brown: Read on.
  Mr. Beechman: There has to be a committee of investigation, although exactly how it investigates, how long it takes or who it is I am not too clear. If the Parliamentary Secretary then refers to Clause 9, since he likes to be particular in these matters, he will see under Subsection (1, a) that the board may be empowered
  "to manufacture or acquire, and to sell or let for hire to registered producers and other persons, anything required for the production, grading, packing, storing, adaptation for sale, transport or sale of the regulated product."
  Enormous power is there given. Hon. Members may think it quite right, but it should be understood that the State is there given an enormous power.
  Mr. Brown: No, the producers' board is given the power.
  Mr. Beechman: Well, the producers' board is given it, yes; but this enormous power is given to do these things. I am in favour of producers' boards—and the Parliamentary Secretary's intervention has helped me—but at the same time we must make sure that under the Minister's directions in the future—I have no immediate fears in the matter—sweeping directions are not given which will mean that everything is controlled by the State, because the only people who can really manage agriculture are the people who know their own fields and their own soil in their own way. I do not say that they should not co-operate. There is a great deal of room for co-operation provided the co-operation is not imposed. People can do threshing and all sorts of things together in helping to do the work in the fields, but if the co-operation is imposed, then to my mind it ceases to be co-operation.
  At present we are suffering very much because we have so few pigs in this country, because that is bad for the soil and does real injury to the agricultural industry. I quite understand that in present circumstances the State should say what should happen to the pig after it has been killed, but I do not understand why people who can keep pigs should not be allowed to. At the moment it all depends upon the ration, and the absurdity is that in a certain locality there may be plenty of feedingstuffs which could be used but the ration allowed is not sufficient to keep the pigs alive. People who could feed

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  pigs do not do so because although the feedingstuffs are only a mile or two away, or perhaps in the next field, they cannot use those feedingstuffs because of the restrictions. It is very right that we should import feedingstuffs, but we must put an end to this completely senseless form of restriction which forbids people to use available feedingstuffs for the purpose of keeping pigs. The use of those feeding-stuffs for keeping pigs would improve the fields, would improve the table of the farmhouse, and if properly used would make no adverse difference to the general well-being of the people as a whole, which I well know has to be remembered.
  7.8 p.m.
  Mr. Alpass: Although I regard this as a stop-gap Measure, I feel that it is very necessary pending the introduction of a broader and comprehensive scheme for dealing with the whole question of marketing agricultural products. Anyone who knows anything about this question will agree that the present, I will not say arrangements but want of arrangements, or the present system—although it could not really be termed a system—for the marketing of home-grown food, especially of horticultural and fruit products, is chaotic, wasteful and unnecessarily expensive to the consumer. Every commission that has inquired into the problem has reported that a complete reorganization is necessary. As long ago as 1922 the Linlithgow Committee stated:
  "Our investigations have led us to the conclusion that the spread between producers' and consumers' prices is unjustifiably wide."
  They went on to say:
  "The public interest demands a far more determined effort on the part of all concerned to bring about reform and to increase the efficiency of the marketing and distributive machinery as a whole."
  I was very pleased to hear the Minister state in introducing the Bill that this Measure would in no way prejudice the introduction of a greater and more comprehensive Bill which many of us are anxious to see brought into this House. I should like to assure the hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) that when that Bill is introduced it is not going to be a ramshackle vehicle, but an up-to-date, modern streamlined car, in which not only the driver but all the passengers will ride with very great comfort and pleasure.
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  The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond and the hon. and learned Member for St. Ives (Mr. Beechman) referred to the question of the marketing of cauliflowers. I should like to give the House the facts about one transaction of that vegetable. A reporter from the "The People"—that very great weekly newspaper—[Interruption]. Yes, it is a very great weekly newspaper. He was sent down to inquire into the methods of marketing cauliflowers. He went to where the cauliflowers were being cut, and he tied a piece of ribbon round one of them. He followed it to London, where he went into a shop which had cauliflowers on sale. He identified this cauliflower in the shop and he bought it. He paid 8d. for it, and then he had sent to him the account which the grower received. If the House does not know this already it will astonish them. In that particular consignment there were 144 cauliflowers and the grower received 3s. 10d. for them, or just over a farthing each. There is no disgrace to the grower there, but it shows there is something radically wrong with the system of distribution. Therefore, we are looking forward to the other Bill which will be bolder than this one, because it will improve that situation.
  There are other instances in regard to marketing. A friend of mine in the northern part of Gloucestershire literally had to plough back his lettuces because he could not get sufficient for them to cover the cost of marketing. Yet in my own city of Bristol people who wanted lettuces had to pay threepence or fourpence each for them. For further evidence other inquiries should be made, but in my view there is abundant evidence now to show that some radical re-organisation of the system of marketing is required.
  I do not want to say anything of a disparaging nature about the marketing boards. I know that with milk they have effected tremendous improvements. I may say with due modesty I was the first person in my part of the country to organise the collection of milk from the farms. The milk used to be sent from each individual farm to the creameries, and then one of the big firms was introduced to the farmers by myself and we organised a collection. From that point of view the Milk Marketing Board is

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  doing great work. However, that is not the whole of the story. In commenting on the work of the Milk Marketing Board, the Lucas Committee Report made this rather significant statement:
  "In general, the marketing boards in the pre-war period succeeded in doing comparatively little to implement what the Linlithgow Report laid down as a basic requirement, namely, to secure a more efficient performance of marketing services and diminish the gap between the prices the consumer paid and those the producers received."
  In referring to the work of the Milk Marketing Board, although the Committee stated that it gave farmers an assured market, it said that the actual result to the consumer was an increase price.
  I do not want unduly to criticise the work of the Milk Marketing Board, because I think it is a wonderful organisation, and its operation is, in my opinion, a wonderful testimony to the national organisation of an industry. Some of my hon. Friends visited the Milk Marketing Board, and were told something about the marvellous organisation which handles the whole of the milk produced in this country. Not only does it buy the hundreds of millions of gallons of milk produced, but it is responsible for its distribution. We were told that we could be informed about the milk of a certain farmer—how much the farmer had sent, how much was paid for it, where it was sent to, and how much was received by the Board for it. The whole of the work was done for the expenditure of one-eighth of a penny per gallon. That is a testimony to the beneficient results of organising an industry on a national scale.
  I want to see the producer get a fair price. Hon. Members on the other side of the House always profess to be very good friends of the agriculturists of this country, but they had to wait for the advent of a Labour Government before they got anything like security and guaranteed prices. We have always been concerned about giving producers a fair price for the expenditure of their labour and energy. But we are equally concerned about consumers being able to purchase these goods at a fair price, and not at an excessive price compared with the cost of production.
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  I do not intend to occupy the time of the House very long. Mr. Speaker is always very kind to me, and possibly he calls me sometimes for the reason that I do not speak at great length. I want to refer briefly to two points of criticism made by the hon. and gallant Member for Richmond. He suggested that the Minister should consult the representatives of the producers in appointing the four members which it is his duty to appoint to serve on the Producers' Board. I strongly dissent from that view. If the Minister is to consult the producer it would become in essence a producers' monopoly board.
  Sir T. Dugdale: That is done under the 1931 Act.
  Mr. Alpass: We have moved forward since then.
  Mr. G. Brown: Now we are facing the future.
  Mr. Alpass: Not only are we facing the future but we are living in the present and going forward. My criticism of the Clause is that if anything there are not enough members representing the consumer interest on the board. I should like to see the number increased, and perhaps during the Committee Stage the Minister will see the wisdom of that and increase the representation for the consumers.
  The other criticism which was made was with reference to Clause 4. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, like the National Farmers' Union, suggested that the Clause should be dropped out of the Bill. I regard this as the most vital Clause in the Bill. It is a necessary and essential safeguard of the consumers' interest, and assuming it were not there what would be the position? The producers would have it practically in their hands to determine without due consultation what price should be charged for their produce. I do not think the country would stand for that.
  It is true that to say that the agriculturists of the country today have the interests and sympathy of the great industrial population of this country. It was never true to say that the Labour Party were not interested in agriculture, because we have always had a programme. If the producers persist with this disposition to give them a monopoly power to charge

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  what they think right without regard to the consumers' interest, they will be doing themselves and their industry a great disservice. I support the Bill, and, if in Committee we get some of these minor points improved, I shall be more satisfied. I hope it will not be long before that implied promise from my right hon. Friend is redeemed, and he will be introducing a bolder and more comprehensive Measure, which will eliminate this absolutely unjustifiable gap between what the producer gets and what the consumer has to pay.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. Baldwin: I am glad that I am following the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass), because he and I have crossed swords on other occasions. I want to deal with his criticism regarding the margin between the producer and the consumer. He quoted from the Linlithgow Report, but I would remind him that both the Linlithgow Committee and the Lucas Committee left the matter in the air. They emphasised the margin but neither of them said how that margin was to be eliminated.
  Mr. Alpass: Will the hon. Gentleman excuse me? I suggest that if he were to read those reports more thoroughly he would see that they made definite and concrete proposals.
  Mr. Baldwin: I have read the reports closely. The Linlithgow Report said:
  "Our investigations have led us to the conclusion that the spread between producers' and consumers' prices is unjustifiably wide. Taken as a whole, distributive costs are a far heavier burden than society will permanently consent to bear."
  They leave off there without telling us how to close the gap. That is what we want to know. We all agree that there is far too big a margin and we want to know how to do away with it. The Lucas Committee slid away from the problem by saying:
  "We were not charged with inquiring into wholesale and retail distribution; in fact, activities from the wholesaler to the consumer were outside the scope of our inquiry."
  That is the inquiry that I would like to see some committee set about, in order to suggest in detail how commodities could go from producer to consumer with the cutting down of redundant costs. Nobody has ever told us that, so we are all talking in the air.
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  The complaint by many hon. Members on the other side usually is that the consumer is not properly protected. I have every sympathy with that complaint. The consumer should be protected, but complaints made on that side of the House generally come when the producer has had a bad season, there is a shortage of commodities and prices go sky high. I never heard any complaints when we as producers were hardly getting a price that paid the cost of picking. Hon. Members opposite are prepared to accept that. As a producer, I say that a board or a commission appointed to look after consumers' interests when commodities are scarce and prices high should also look after the producers when there is a big supply and when we get dumped with foreign produce. I am not particularly interested in the price of a commodity when I have a very short supply but I am interested when I have had a good crop. I am prepared to take a poor price for a short supply if I can get a reasonable price for a good crop. Let me instance plums last year. There was no outcry from the consumers when we were selling our plums at a little bit less than it cost to have them picked, but if the plums had been scarce and gone up to 7d. or 8d. a pound any number of hon. Members would have made a fuss about it.
  I want to emphasise the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) about Clauses 4 and 13. Farmers are absolutely up against Clause 4 for reasons which have been admirably pointed out. No investigating committee can act sufficiently quickly to deal with the majority of horticultural products. I think the National Farmers' Union has suggested that there should be compensation, but I think that would be too chaotic and would be impossible.
  I suggest that in order that the consumer should be protected, the producers' board—which is not entirely composed of producers because there will be nominees from the Minister—before they decide upon a price, should consult someone, appointed if you like by the Minister. That person or persons would agree upon the price before it was decided. In that way we could avoid the chaos which will result if prices have to be altered afterwards. If the Minister is to have power to put on a "stop" order after deciding

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  that a price is too high, somebody will have had to advise the Minister, who will not take action on his own account. I suggest that the persons whom the Minister consults might well be consulted by the board before they fix their price. In that way consumers would be protected.
  Major Wise: Would the hon. Member agree that it would be good to have that individual on the board as one of the members?
  Mr. Baldwin: I see no objection to that suggestion. At least one-fifth of the board would be nominated by the Minister and would include representatives of the Minister. I see no reason why the individual should not be a consultative member of the board.
  Major Wise: In that circumstance, the hon. Member would not object to Clause 4 remaining in the Bill?
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: There is a lot more to it than that.
  Mr. Baldwin: Absolutely. What is the good of having a consumer consultant on the board if, after the board have fixed a price the Minister can come along and upset that price? We want the prices to be fixed before we put our stuff on the market. There should not be any difficulty about that. At the present moment the merchants agree, to a very large extent, to a contract price. In the case of plums, last year the contract was something like l½d. per lb., which hardly paid for the picking. We feel that there must be some definite price which is fair to the producers and to the consumers. It should be a definite price and should not be arranged as proposed in Clause 4. That is a suggestion which will not get the confidence of the producers. It will prevent them from forming marketing boards if they feel that prices they arrange are subject to being upset after they have negotiated the price and sold half their crop.
  In my opinion, Clause 13 is the most important one in the Bill. I cannot say that I was tremendously surprised that the Minister skated over it without saying anything about it. If there is one protection and one necessary committee it is the Marketing Supply Committee because it can act as liaison between the
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  various Ministries concerned with the handling of food. The complaint that producers have against the Government at this time is that there seems to be an entire lack of co-operation between the Ministries. The Marketing Supply Committee could co-ordinate the Ministries. To show the lack of co-ordination I want to draw the attention of the House to certain facts.
  When my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond mentioned that the biggest enemy of the farmer was the Ministry of Food there were two or three outbursts from the other side. It is true. We have more fear of the Minister of Food than of any other Minister sitting on that side of the House. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the definite question whether the Minister of Agriculture was consulted when the contract with Holland was made by which we sent coal and steel to Holland to bring back, among other things, £28 million worth of agricultural produce. The answer was that that was another Question, but I could see by the face of the Minister of Agriculture sitting beside the right hon. Lady that there had been no consultation.
  If the Minister of Food had consulted the Minister of Agriculture, is it likely that he would have agreed that it was necessary to import 60,000 tons of onions. He had been going round the country encouraging the growers of onions to increase their acreage. Would he have agreed that it was necessary to buy £200,000 worth of dehydrated vegetables and 5,000 tons of tinned vegetables, and also 13,000 tons of fruit pulp when the jam manufacturers in this country could not get rid of the pulp from the previous season because they had not got the tins in which to put it? Is not that lack of consultation between the Ministries enough to make farmers nervous about their long-term prospects? Has the Minister of Agriculture been consulted about the Polish Agreement which has just been made? That brings me back to the point that the Market Supply Committee should be the committee to co-ordinate matters and decide what figures are necessary before such agreements are made.
  I want to reply to criticisms that the farmers have not taken advantage of the various marketing Acts. The Lucas Report says that the farmers have not

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  made much use of those Acts. Almost in the same breath, in paragraph 5 the Report says:
  "We feel, however, bound to express our strong opinion that no plan for orderly marketing of home produce will stand the strain of unregulated and unco-ordinated imports."
  The Government must keep in mind that no marketing scheme can operate unless imports are regulated. When the first marketing Act was passed, the Lord Privy Seal came to my district and expounded the value of the Measure saying what a grand thing it was that marketing schemes were to be adopted which would prevent farmers under-selling each other. I asked if steps were being taken to stop foreign countries under-selling our farmers, but that was another question. However, that is the secret of the matter, and unless we have some co-operation and regulation of imported foods, the farmers will not produce what they can produce.
  A big target has been set for them for 1952. They can respond, but the one thing which they want is confidence that they will be looked after by the Government as a whole and not only by the Minister of Agriculture. I believe that the Minister of Agriculture is sincere in his desire to help the farmers but he plays in a team which does not cooperate and he is playing on a very sticky wicket. I hope he will keep his end up by insisting that before these agreements are made, the farmers shall have a fair deal. If not, and if imported cauliflowers and other things are allowed to be dumped on these shores, the farmers will soon put down to grass the land which is at present growing a very valuable vegetable crop, and the country will suffer.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mrs. Castle: Like my hon. Friend the Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle), I wish to speak on the Bill not because I represent an agricultural constituency but because I do not. I have been rather interested to discover, during the Debate, that although the Bill deals with the regulation of the quantity, quality and price of some of our staple foodstuffs, right hon. Gentlemen opposite, self-styled champions of the housewife, defenders of the cost of living and the antagonists of rising prices, have not put up anyone to state the point of view
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  of those at the receiving end of this very important Measure.
  Although I agree that agriculture is an outstandingly important industry in this country, like other industries which are also important, it is the servant, or it should be, of the community and not its master. Those of us who represent industrial areas are concerned that there shall be some balance in the approach to this problem, not so that there shall be the old antagonism and conflict between our agricultural and industrial resources, but at any rate so that one shall not exploit the other. Every speech I have heard from the Opposition, listening as objectively as I could, has confirmed me in the belief that the producers are the last people to be trusted to deal single-handedly with the problem, a plea which has been made by one speaker opposite after another. Yet we are held by the Opposition that even the mild dose of ministerial representation sought under the Measure has "shaken the confidence of the agricultural community."
  The hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York) as far as I could follow him, seemed to be advocating that all the responsibility for and control of the marketing process from the grower right to the home should be the prerogative of the producers only; he said that if it were left to them everything in the garden would be lovely and the interests of all consumers in crowded areas throughout the country would be safeguarded, as if by a kind of miraculous insight, from the agricultural areas. I do not share that confidence, and many of us, while accepting the Measure as an essential step towards dealing on a proper scale with a very wide problem, are concerned to have to-night from the Minister, or the Parliamentary Secretary, a rather stronger assurance than we have had yet that the Measure will be followed in not too long a time by a more root and branch tackling of the problem of getting our agricultural resources functioning in such a way that goods of high quality and reasonable cost will be distributed to our people, a problem which we have not yet solved and which will not be solved by this Bill alone.
  What is the answer of the Opposition to this problem? All we have had is a sustained, malicious hostility to the Lucas Report. Yet I think I am right in

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  saying that the Lucas Committee was far from being a substantially Socialist Committee. It was not a party political committee, nor was it a party political report. The interests of all political points of view were represented on the committee and its Report was unanimous. Yet when it is suggested to the producing interests in agriculture that something should be done, on the lines of the Report, which is a little off the beaten track of their monopoly, they at once "gang up" in suspicion. They say that the agricultural community will lose confidence in the Government and in this Measure if it is suggested for a moment that there should be any action on the lines of the Lucas Committee's Report. The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) is really off the party line, and had better be careful, when he says naïvely that he is in favour of any board or commission which would look into the question of distribution, because that is the Lucas Committee's recommendation and is what we are asking for here.
  Mr. Turton: Would the hon. Lady refer to the paragraph in the Lucas Report which says that?
  Mrs. Castle: I am referring particularly at this moment to the question of horticulture and if the hon. Gentleman will turn to pages 67 and 68 of the Report he will find that they urgently recommend the setting up of an independent Commodity Commission. The report says, in so many words, that
  "the reorganisation of horticultural marketing upon a satisfactory basis cannot be done by producer marketing boards alone."
  They recommend, with very great emphasis, that it is a most urgent matter.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) said, this question has been discussed for many years—since 1922. We have had the ventilation by committee after committee of the seriousness of the inadequacy of our distributive system. It does not apply to food alone. There are many other of our commodities involved. The Cotton Working Party Report was another one which referred to the need for a thoroughgoing inquiry into distributive costs and the distributive organisation inside the cotton industry. So far as food is concerned it has been widely agreed on a
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  non-party basis that in the near future there ought to be a root and branch inquiry. Until we get that inquiry, until we get a commission which is capable of surveying our marketing and distributive resources and making recommendations, we shall not have the information which we need. There is a dark cloud of mystery over the distributive system in our country which hon. Members opposite do everything possible to prevent us lifting. If there is any census of distribution suggested, they are up in arms to protect the rule of darkness and of ignorance in this sphere. I hope to see hon. Members opposite welcome the collection of information in these fields in which knowledge is quite inadequate, for the solution of problems which are very real and which are particularly urgent to the housewife whose interests we on this side of the House genuinely and continuously support.
  The housewife, I agree, is also interested in the question of quality, and I welcome this Bill if it means that the housewife is to have, particularly on the horticultural side, a graded and reliable product. If the housewife is to have quality and security in her purchases I welcome the Bill. But it is very important that we should not lose sight of the price factor. It is true that before the war the chaos of our marketing arrangements sometimes meant cheapness at the consumer end. The consumer at least did get that. Is the consumer now to get quality only at the expense of losing that vitally important factor of cheapness?
  Hon. Members opposite time and again have said that the grower is not getting a square deal, and I accept that. All the evidence that one can get indicates that the grower has not had the benefit of the high prices which have been charged in the shops; neither has the consumer. The benefit has been lost somewhere in between. It is vitally important, when we are introducing a Measure whose purpose is deliberately to increase the return to the grower, to ensure that if prices are not to go rocketing to high, something is done urgently to mop up that distributive loss between the consumer and the grower. Otherwise, the burden will be shifted from the grower on to the consumer—and I thought hon. Members opposite were already gravely concerned about the level of the cost of living.

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  There is one point to which I wish to refer quite briefly and it relates to a question which has been raised by hon. Members opposite several times today—the question of imports. Here, again, there has been from hon. Members opposite a very one-sided view. What kind of security do hon. Members opposite visualise that consumers shall have against quite unfair restrictive practices? I am prepared to rely upon the Ministry of Food to safeguard the consumers' interests, in ensuring the entry into this country of sufficient food imports to prevent the consumer from being held unfairly to ransom by a monopoly industry at home. I think the Minister of Food has done a good job in that direction, but hon. Members opposite do not think so.
  Mr. Baldwin: The Ministry of Food are now giving the Irish 225s. a cwt. for bacon, and the home producer 175s. Wages here are £4 10s.—with which we agree, of course. The Irish rate is £2 or 50s. That is what we object to, as producers.
  Mrs. Castle: I am afraid I should be a little out of Order if I followed the hon. Gentleman too far in that direction. I intend to take one example which has been raised, and which is linked up with the question which I am discussing. I refer to the very vexed question of onions, which has been raised several times in this House. We have been led to believe that the Ministry of Food have been ignoring the interests of the country as a whole by permitting a flood of unneeded and unwanted onions to come into the country when we can supply the home need adequately from our own resources. I was interested to hear one hon. Member opposite complain not at the dumping of cheap food here, but at the import of expensive food, and that the competition which our own growers are fearing is from cauliflowers which, he said, were much more expensive than our home produced variety. It is a curious new kind of economic theory which seems to have got turned upside down.
  The other day a wholesaler came to see me and I discussed with him the problem of onions. He told me an interesting fact, on which I have since been checking up. When Dutch onions
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  first came in he assumed that as they were so much cheaper than the Spanish onions he was on a good thing by obtaining stocks of the Dutch variety. He therefore built up stocks of Dutch onions, which he passed on to his retailers. The retailers reported back that although the price of the Dutch onions was well below that of the Spanish onions, the public preference for the Spanish onions was such that they were selling like wildfire, and the Dutch onions were left on their hands.
  At Covent Garden yesterday these were the figures at which apparently the onions were selling: English, 10s. a cwt.; Dutch, 14s. a cwt.; Spanish, 35s. a cwt. Yet despite that very great disparity in price it is the Spanish onions which have the overwhelming public preference at this moment. Why? It is partly because of flavour and partly because they are large, can be baked and are easily handled. The housewife, in short, would rather have them. Do hon. Members opposite suggest that although our own growers are not up against any unfair competition as to price, we should deny and stifle that public preference? Is this the great maxim of "setting the people free"—to choose their onions? I want to suggest that there is one intention behind this sustained attack upon fruit and vegetable imports, and that is to give an unfair restriction of choice to the British housewife at a time when, heaven knows, the Government are doing their best to bring variety and colour into her life. Unfortunately, we are not helped by hon. Members opposite in the noteworthy course which we are trying to pursue.
  If there is any intention, under this Bill, of giving to the producers' boards an unfair influence in the restriction of our imports of fruit and vegetables, we shall be taking a retrograde step. I want to ask the Minister whether it is true that the draft schemes which have been put up to him by the N.F.U. officials suggest that the producers' boards should have almost exclusively the ear of the Minister in the regulation of the imports of vegetables? That is no true principle for a free society. Here is where the commodity commissions recommended by the Lucas Report would come into their legitimate sphere, because it is suggested in that Report that those commissions, surveying

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  the marketing and distributive field as a whole, would be the appropriate bodies to watch the imports and, having no vested interest in either end of the distributive scale, would be able to make representations to the Minister which would be disinterested ones, and which should be listened to, as to what was a fair allowance of imports and what was unfair. The views of the two sides of the House on that might differ, because in this matter there is a danger that hon. Members opposite will sacrifice the wider interests of the community to the narrower interests of the producer. I therefore ask the Minister to give us an assurance that this Measure is merely a first stage, and that we shall not be sacrificing the long-term interests of the great consuming British public to a narrower producer case.
  53 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Williams: The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has had a good fling at us for not supporting the consumers and only taking the view of the producers, but hon. Member after hon. Member has got up on this side of the House in support of this Bill, which after all, has been brought before this House to prevent the exploitation of consumers. They have certainly criticised where they think it right to criticise. If we have said that the producer must also be protected, it is a perfectly fair criticism, and that does not mean that we do not support the consumer as well. However, when the hon. Lady declares quite blatantly that she does not care a hoot or a cuss for the producer, I hope that will be reported in some of the agricultural and country papers, which will not do her any good when she has to defend herself at the next Election. I for my part have said before in this House that agriculture should, as far as possible, be removed from party politics, and for that reason during the three years that this Parliament has been running we have on most occasions done all we can to see eye to eye with the Minister of Agriculture, but we must criticise where criticism is called for.
  We are keen that organised marketing should be encouraged and under this Bill we hoped that we were to get a lead and know the intention of the Minister towards organised marketing. Instead of
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  that, he has merely let us realise that we have not yet heard the worst, he has left an uncertain attitude hanging over the producer, and I believe he has done the farming community no good by not letting us know what are his real intentions towards marketing. If these organised boards are to be any good we believe that they should be producer boards. However, there will be great temptation at the present time for the producer to exploit the consumer because the latter will take almost anything that is offered to him or her because of the shortage.
  So we must beware that these boards, starting as they are probably in the next year or so, are careful to realise that times are not normal and that their duty is the same as that of private enterprise, that the customer is always right and they must produce what the housewife wants and put the consumer first and foremost. I can remember in the bad old days that I used to pray for a bad year for apples because that was the only time when I could sell them. We hope these things will be put right under boards which we hope will cover cucumbers, tomatoes, apples, and many other subjects of horticultural produce, and that is why we are supporting this Bill tonight.
  I want to draw attention to Clause 5 concerning the disciplinary committees. These disciplinary committees, which have to decide what shall be done to offending producers, have always had a difficult job. They have been accused of being judges in their own case and it has been a continuous source of grievance. I welcome the fact that we have at last got somebody presiding over them with legal experience. That is a great step forward although I believe that when we come to the Committee stage we might improve upon that by taking it a little more out of the hands of the producers. Also in Subsection (3) of Clause 5 there is reference to meetings of the disciplinary committee which may not be held in public. I hope the Minister will tell us just when meetings are not to be held in public and why, because we English have always believed that all grievances should be aired in public unless there is some special reason for not doing so.
  One other small point in Clause 5 deals with penalties that can be imposed for infringement of up to six years after the offence. That is a long time, and I

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  would throw out as a suggestion to the Minister that perhaps he had better limit it to three or four instead of six years.
  Mr. T. Williams: It would be permissible for the board itself to reduce the six years if it so desired.
  Mr. G. Williams: Well that is something in the right direction. Now I want to refer to the controversial Clause 4. If the Minister reduces the price after the board has fixed it, that price reduction is subject to appeal to the committee of investigation. It has been pointed out that that committee may not report for a long time and, in the meantime, ruin may have been brought upon consumers, especially those whose crop is harvested in three or four weeks, such as the strawberry and raspberry crops. It may be their entire livelihood, and "ruin" is perhaps not an unfair word to apply. It may take many months to get the result of this appeal, because I can cast my mind back to 1938, when the Milk Marketing Board had a complaint from the milk manufacturers about the price they were charging for skimmed milk. It went before the Committee of Investigation for consideration. The Committee decided eventually that although the price might be injuring the manufacturers of dried milk it was not injurious to the public interest. They upheld the price which the Board had originally suggested. It took exactly seven months for that appeal to get through.
  Than kind of thing may well happen under this Bill and the producers suffer hardship in the meantime. Clause 4, therefore, must be taken out. Now that the Minister has heard hon. Members speaking, quite sincerely and very strongly, against this Clause I hope he will do something about it and that, as he is always ready to come to some compromise, he will listen to what the other side has to say. What will happen when we discuss the Clause in Committee? Some of us may suggest the payment of compensation for any loss incurred by the producers under this Clause. The Chairman of the Committee will rule any discussion of that as out of Order because no financial arrangement has been made for compensation.
  I ask the Minister, therefore, when we come to the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution, to see that a certain sum is put aside to compensate people
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  who may have suffered hardship under the Clause. If he does that tonight it will at least give him a chance of hearing our arguments in the Committee stage and of agreeing, perhaps, even if he cannot take out Clause 4, to give compensation to people who bear these hardships.
  Unless something of this nature is done the grower may even refuse to grow his crop if he is told before growing his crops what price he is to be paid for them. If he has started to grow his crops he may neglect to fertilise and cultivate them. That would be to the detriment of the consumer as well as of the producer, because the consumer will not get the crop for which he is waiting. I hope, therefore, that all Members on the other side of the House will realise the damaging and dangerous effects of Clause 4. If the Minister is not prepared to take out the Clause I ask him, when he deals with the Financial Resolution tonight, to vote a sum of money which will enable him to compensate should we raise this issue during the Committee stage.
  8.3 p.m.
  Mr. Dye: I cannot help noticing that for the second time in this Debate the benches opposite were occupied by only six—and, now, by seven—hon. Members. In view of the long-professed interest of the party opposite in agriculture, that seems a reflection of the interest which they are taking in it today.
  Mr. Turton: I think the hon. Member will find that the proportion on his own benches is very much less.
  Mr. Dye: I am quite prepared to let the hon. Member work it out. The figure is three to one, which I do not think is quite equal representation. We on this side, at any rate, can show that our benches are reasonably well filled, and that the interest taken in this particular Measure has been quite keen. Speaking as one who is actively engaged in agricultural production I welcome the Bill. The marketing of our produce is our age-long problem. In the early days, when the man who reared his own chickens and so forth, sold them direct to the consumer he argued out his price, but immediately the problem became too big for that method both sides thought that the middle people were getting an unfair share of the final price. Our problem today, therefore.

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  is how to get an efficient service of marketing our produce. It is becoming more and more urgent, because in some respects the difference between the prices of producers and consumers is getting wider.
  There has been criticism from the benches opposite of the very necessary work being done by the Ministry of Food and by the Board of Trade in making long-term arrangements with European countries for the supply of agricultural produce to this country. That is an inevitable procedure, for we are not in a position to produce all the food we want and, in addition, our consumers want a continuous supply of those foods and of the quality they desire. Therefore, when arrangements are made with other countries for the supply of agricultural produce, stipulation can be made about quality, quantity and the like. If British agriculture is to have its fair share in the home market our produce must be of the quality desired by consumers. It must be packed, graded and marketed in such an orderly manner that there is a continuous supply to meet the daily requirements of the British consumer.
  That cannot be done in the old disorderly fashion. It must be planned, right from the farm, over a period of years so that the balanced acreages of the different crops and stock will bring a continuous supply to meet the demands of consumers. This requires the rapid extension of marketing schemes under existing Acts and also under the Bill we are now discussing. It has already been pointed out that a number of pre-war marketing schemes have been put into cold storage. The time is urgently ripe for new schemes to be brought into operation as quickly as possible.
  Hon. Members on both sides have referred to the rather warm question of onions. We have had a glut of home produced onions. It has taught us the lesson, I hope, that the variety which we grow should not necessarily be that which produces the greatest weight per acre, but should be the type which the consumer will readily purchase. Furthermore, they must be harvested, dried and stored in such a way that they will compare with those grown elsewhere. Producers of onions in this country have not
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  gone thoroughly into these questions. Certainly, they have not organised the marketing of their produce. Thus, with an abundant crop this year they have come very badly unstuck. I hope that that will be a lesson, and not only to the producers of onions, with whom I have the greatest sympathy, many of whom were able to charge high prices and make big profits during the war.
  Now that the world's markets and supplies are freer we have to face up to the question of supplying consumers regularly with the quality and quantity of the food they need. In the case of vegetables in particular, where there might be varying seasons, there must be some control and some organisation of acreages, whether it be onions, cauliflowers or carrots, so as to avoid gluts at certain periods of the year if not through the whole season. There is an urgent need among the vegetable growers of this country to have an organisation which will provide that necessary control over acreages and varieties, and enable produce to be got to the markets as and when needed.
  It was alleged that the Italians were able to market their cauliflowers and pack them better than growers in, for instance, Cornwall. There have been complaints in London about the way in which Cornish growers were sending cauliflowers to market last year. Recently, in a market place in Norfolk, I watched the sale of Italian cauliflowers. They were not packed in an attractive way, for if a cauliflower is to travel a long distance to market it must have its leaves with it covering the heart of the cauliflower keeping its colour and protecting it from damage. Then it is the job of the salesman to trim and exhibit it in such a way that it will attract the attention of the housewife. I do not believe that the Italians have an advantage in the way in which they pack their cauliflowers. But there has been a tendency amongst British people, when getting enough for what they are producing, to become a little lackadaisical in the preparation of their produce for the market.
  Not only is there an urgent need for marketing schemes for vegetables, but they are needed for other produce, too. Growers of barley throughout the Eastern Counties, if they are not concerned now, will soon have to be concerned about the system of marketing

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  barley. I remember that 10 years ago, when there was an abundant crop of barley in the Eastern Counties, merchants and maltsters said they did not want it and the price went down from 22s. to 13s. for two cwts. The price was below cost of production. That happened in the 1938 season, and in the early part of 1939 hundreds of farmers were unable to get a fair price for barley to cover cost of production. As a result of last year's harvest there is now an abundance of barley in the Eastern Counties. Everywhere on the farms there are unthreshed stacks, and the granaries are full. How is the price being maintained? Only by the Ministry of Food buying the crop. There is a floor beneath which the price cannot fall today. When hon. Members opposite criticise the action of the Ministry of Food in dealing with the farmers of this country they cannot understand what is happening in the Eastern Counties. The Ministry of Food are upholding the price of barley and performing a function which ought to be performed by the organised growers in co-operation with the brewers. It should be possible to produce an ample supply of malting barley and an abundance for feedingstuffs.
  A little time ago I was in Ireland, and I learned of a scheme which the great brewers there have for getting farmers to grow barley under contract, acreage and payment both to be defined. We should have a similar system in this country. Production is not something isolated from marketing. Prices would obviously have an effect on the amounts of different foods grown in this country. The Government's policy is to extend agricultural production to the fullest possible extent and place in the hands of the farming community legislation under which they can organise the sale of their produce to the fullest advantage of producers and the best advantage of consumers. In so far as this Bill helps that purpose we want to encourage the farming community to make full use of the schemes. It is a question of urgency there is no time to lose. We must have more schemes. I wish the Bill well, and hope that not only will it be given a Second Reading but that we shall in Committee get down to the few problems on which there is a difference of opinion.
  8.18 p.m.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: The hon. Member for
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  South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye) made an interesting speech after a rather lamentable start. The cat is asleep again, I am sorry to see. In my short experience of the House I have always thought it unwise to criticise attendance during the dinner interval and to say much about how many hon. Members are present on one side or the other. They may be working on Committees, or at dinner.
  There is a remarkable degree of unanimity on this Bill. We all want efficient marketing for agricultural produce in Great Britain. We are all agreed that the producer must consider the consumer and give him good quality if he expects a good price. Those are two large foundation stones of agreement on the Bill between both sides of the House. The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), who I am sorry has now left the House, had a rollicking time and enjoyed herself speaking about the wicked Tories. It was such fun, but she was radically wrong in most of the things she said. But it has become apparent in this Debate that the recommendations of the Lucas Committee are well on their way. The door has been left wide open, as we have been told, and it is perfectly clear that these recommendations are coming along. That will be a much more controversial matter, as everyone here knows. I hope it will be long delayed, and that the inevitable result of the General Election will prevent it from ever being brought into operation.
  One great mistake is frequently made when reference is being made to the gap between the producer and the consumer, which we all agree seems to be extremely wide. But there is no proof that direct supply from the producer to the consumer will decrease that gap and will reduce prices. If we look at the various nationalised industries which have just come into the Government's hands we can see exactly the opposite. Do not let us think that because we cut out the distributor, who plays an important part, that we shall necessarily get a reduction in price to the consumer. I agree that the question needs to be examined in an open-minded way.
  I am glad to see the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland present because I intend to express a little concern. Clauses 1, 2, 4 and 5, etc. of the Bill all refer to Ministers setting up boards, directing

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  people, temporarily directing them under the terms of Clause 4, etc. There should be a clearer statement from the Government, and it should appear in the Bill, as to who is to do all this appointing and directing in regard to Scotland. That is not clear from Clause 18, which applies the Bill to Scotland. We should have some assurance that it will be the Secretary of State for Scotland who will make these appointments where the Bill states that a Minister is entitled to do so. Also, the penal committees, or whatever they are called, those which can exercise discipline, should be carefully selected so that Scottish interests are not overwhelmed by those of England.
  One disturbing point—it occurs in practically every Bill which this Government bring forward—is the poisonous theory or practice of inserting tremendous powers in a Measure, and mildly saying, "We do not intend to use them. We want to have them but if these chaps behave these provisions will never be required." That is the method of the dictator wherever there has been one. It is unfortunate that the Minister of Agriculture, for whom I have the greatest regard, and who has endeavoured to do a good job for English agriculture, should have lent himself to that poisonous theory.
  It is of immense importance to Scotland that something like the market supply committee should be retained, because I wish to be frank with the House. I am not being anti-English, and I hope that because I stand up for Scottish rights and because other hon. Members from Scotland do the same, we shall not thereby be accused of being anti-English. We are nothing of the kind. It has to be realised that in this matter of horticultural produce, England and Scotland together are alarmed at the imports from France, Holland and Belgium as they affect home produce. Inevitably that is alarming but there is the added alarm in Scotland that imports of horticultural produce from England are on an even greater scale than those from the Continent, and therefore affect us much more than those from the Continent.
  I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland will not lose sight of this matter because there is an opening for Scottish horticulture which must not be lost. I
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  hope that the Secretary of State will throw his weight about in this matter and ensure that we get a fair share of the trade of the country, and also that we do not suffer by reason of the enormous imports which come across the Border, often in a stale condition, when the product should be produced fresh at home. If hon. Members could go to the big markets in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee and see the stuff which arrives from the South when local growers are unable to sell fresh first-class produce, they would see the menace of English horticultural produce in Scotland. I say that in a friendly way, but it is a vital problem in Scotland, and I hope that the Secretary of State will give his attention to it.
  I turn to the question of compensation in the event of the Minister's decision having been proved to be wrong as a result of a committee of investigation. My hon. Friend the Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) put the matter very well indeed as did my hon. and gallant Friend who spoke first from these Benches. The farmers of Scotland have no objection whatever, they do not think they can reasonably object, to the Minister taking charge, as it were, in the case of a product the price and market for which he has guaranteed. But where he is not doing that they think it is most unreasonable—and they oppose it tooth and nail—that he should have the opportunity of making a mistaken decision and on that decision issuing a temporary direction which is afterwards proved to be wrong by the committee of investigation, and that at the same time no compensation should be provided to deal with the result of his error. I hope that position will be altered when the Bill reaches the Committee stage. I emphasise once again my hope that before that stage the Secretary of State for Scotland will have some protection for Scottish interests inserted quite clearly in the Bill. I welcome the Bill, as I think everybody in the House does. I hope that it will have a fair passage, though not necessarily an entirely quiet one.
  8.28 p.m.
  Mr. Gooch: I desire to make a short contribution to this Debate from the standpoint of one who represents a rural constituency. I also wish to ventilate a matter connected with this Bill in which the actual producers, the farm workers, are greatly interested.

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  I am glad that there is such a large measure of agreement about the main features of the Bill. I would emphasise that such has been the case in regard to nearly all the agricultural Measures which have been put forward by the present Government. That is a tribute to the fact that in our party and on our benches we have people taking the lead who know the agricultural position and are prepared from time to time to advance measures in its interest. It was so in regard to the great Agriculture Act of 1947. There was a tremendous measure of agreement about the main provisions of that Measure. We said at the time that its effect would be to stimulate production. That has taken place. At the same time we did appreciate that the one great weakness in connection with agricultural and horticultural production was on the marketing and distribution side. I regard this Bill as a natural corollary to the Agriculture Act, 1947.
  It is a tragedy that there should ever be what are termed gluts and surpluses of food. In the past these have not only meant losses to the producers but at the same time have meant serious loss to the public. I would refer to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) that we on this side of the House were not really concerned about the position of the producer. I say plainly that we are tremendously concerned about the producer. It is because of our concern with his fate and with what he gets for what he produces we are giving our wholehearted support to this Bill.
  We have heard a great deal about the various commodities produced on the farms and horticultural holdings. I wish to refer to the question of onions. It has already been suggested that more British-produced onions would be sold if they were presented in a better way. That may be so, but I had a letter from a constituent only a few days ago in which he complained that he still has on his farm about 25 tons of onions. He had tried to dispose of them by retail and wholesale, but he had not got rid of a single ton, or even a half-ton. I cannot accept the theory that he could not get rid of his onions because they were not dished up in a presentable form. If we had had the main provisions of this Bill in operation I think my friend would never have had to write to me about the
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  fact that he had tons of onions, which in a month will be inclined to go wrong, and that he could not get them on the market. We have mastered our production problems to a very large extent, but we have not mastered the art of marketing and distribution.
  I regard this Bill as a genuine attempt on the part of the Minister to deal with this vexed question. I wish he could have gone further. References have been made to the recommendations of the Lucas Committee. While I welcome this Bill I suggest it could have gone much further than it does. It could usefully have incorporated some of the main provisions that were put before the country by the Lucas Committee. The hon. and gallant Member for Perth and Kinross (Colonel Gomme - Duncan) said he thought the Lucas Committee's recommendations were well on their way. I hope they are. I hope that what we are doing tonight will be followed by a really wholehearted attempt to put into operation the main recommendations of the Lucas Committee.
  I do not regard the boards established under this legislation as being mere producer boards. The interests of the producers have to be safeguarded, but there would be very strong objection, both in this House and outside to what might be termed monopolistic control of food, and the Minister does well to have a Clause in the Bill which enables him to take a certain line of action if he thinks a board is acting contrary to public opinion. The need for a drastic change in vegetable marketing is overwhelming. The margin is too big, and has to be bridged in some way.
  The main provisions of this Bill will go a long way towards bridging the gap that exists at the present time. May I quote a sentence or two from the agricultural correspondent of the daily newspaper in my own county, "The Eastern Daily Press"? In an article on the need for drastic changes in vegetable marketing he states:
  "Can anyone seriously suggest that the people of this country would not eat more vegetables if prices were lower?"
  I consider that prices can be advanced to the producer and lowered to the consumer without anyone taking any serious harm, unless it be a few middle-men. The writer of this article continues:

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  "It is a sad reflection on the system that in Norfolk alone hundreds of tons of cauliflowers and cabbages have run to seed this Autumn because the growers would have lost even more money if they had sent them to market."
  That is a deplorable situation, and I hope that that aspect of the question is one that will be overcome for good by the operation of this Bill when it becomes an Act.
  I wish to make one criticism, and I think the Minister would be disappointed if I did not make it. All the time I have been a Member of this House I have been urging that the farm worker, the man who actually produces the food, should come more into the picture on the managerial side. I do not mean that the employer should be displaced and the farm worker put in his place, although it might be a good thing on some farms if we did so. I am not suggesting that, but I am suggesting that in operating a scheme of this kind, and setting up of these boards, there is an opportunity for the Minister to play the game by the farm worker by allowing him to come into the picture and take part in the operation of the scheme.
  The Clause dealing with the composition of the boards says:
  "…. members shall be persons appointed by the Minister as being persons who in his opinion are qualified for appointment as having had experience and shown capacity in commerce, finance, administration, public affairs or the organisation of workers."
  I wish to emphasise that little word "or." The Bill does not even say "and." It says "or," and it may mean that on many boards that may be set up under this Bill there will not be a single workers' representative. We had a lot to say with regard to the paucity of representation of workers on the county agricultural committees, and I put myself seriously wrong with the Minister over that business. I tried to deal with it in a very kindly way, and I wish to continue that very kindly action. I suggest to the Minister that he should have another look at this and see if he cannot re-draft this Clause, or put in a new Clause, that will give to the food producer—the fellow who does the growing, the sowing, the reaping and the mowing—an opportunity of taking his full share in the running of this industry. Provision should be made for the adequate representation of the workers on
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  all bodies dealing with agricultural matters, and certainly on the boards set up by this Bill. They should not be there on sufferance. They should be there by right. They are often referred to as the junior partners in the industry, and that is quite true. They are there when hard work is to be done, but they are not to be found when there are jobs to be given to them that will elevate them a bit above their fellows. I make this further appeal to the Minister, that he should not regard this as being the last word on representation, but that he will, for the first time, give me what I want—fair representation of the farm workers on all the boards established under this Bill.
  8.38 p.m.
  Mr. Turton: I found the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Gooch) rather hard to understand. At one point he was arguing that Clause 1 of this Bill was not creating a producer marketing board and at another point he was saying that he wanted to have something of a monopoly as recommended by the Lucas Report. My only criticism of the Lucas Report is the proposed establishment of a distributive monopoly, where the consumer would have no effective representation at all.
  I have an even more elementary criticism of this Bill. I feel that most of this Debate has been very unreal. This Bill was introduced by the Minister of Agriculture supported by the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland. But, of course, the Minister secured his divorce from marketing some time ago, and the custody of his marketing children has been given to the Minister of Food. I looked along the Government Front Bench, but I never saw the Minister of Food or his Parliamentary Secretary there at any time. After all, this Measure, described by its most ardent enthusiasts as a stop-gap Measure, cannot really operate until the problem of how to disentangle those marketing schemes from the Minister of Food has been solved. I listened with care to what the Minister of Agriculture had to say on that subject. He said, eventually, that Clause 16, Subsection (3) was dealing with the difficulty. I looked at that, and I found that it is quite true that in that Subsection, where any part of the marketing scheme has been put into cold storage:

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  "… the Minister may by order make such transitional provision as he may think necessary or expedient for removing any difficulty …."
  I suppose the Minister of Food is the difficulty in this case, and I hope that the Minister of Agriculture will try, under this Subsection, to remove him. I give him my good wishes. The right way to get this marketing into operation is for the Minister of Agriculture again to assume control of agricultural marketing schemes. The sooner he does that the better.
  The Lucas Committee made it clear that what was inefficient or incompetent in marketing was the control by the Ministry of Food. They also condemned the producer-controlled marketing boards. I regretted that decision very much. I am referring to page 53 of the Lucas Report where it is said that there were four possible alternatives in the field of policy. The first was to go back to before 1931; the second was to revert to the pre-war system of producer controlled marketing boards; the third was the existing comprehensive system of control by the Ministry of Food; and the fourth was a public utility corporation. They condemned these producer controlled marketing boards. They condemned the Ministry of Food. I find it very hard for the Minister to say that, without prejudice to his decision on the Lucas Report, he is introducing this Bill. I hoped that this Bill meant that the Minister had reached one decision which was that the Lucas Committee were wrong in condemning producer controlled marketing boards, and choosing this public utility monopoly. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will enlighten us on that point. What is the position? Are we to have producer-controlled marketing boards, or may it happen at some future date that the Minister will go back to this public utility monopoly?
  Clearly, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir. T. Dug-dale) said, there must be some better link between imported commodities and these marketing boards, if they are set up, especially if the control of the boards is vested in the Ministry of Food. I hope we shall be told, if the market supply committee is to be abolished, what alternatives the Government will put in its place. I consider that there is a case for a stronger and more comprehensive
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  committee, as my hon. and gallant Friend suggested. We must have some link, otherwise we shall have the same trouble as we have had this year in connection with nearly every product of the horticultural industry and some products of the agricultural industry. It is because there is that complete lack of co-ordination between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Food—between the marketing boards and the foreign importer—that we find the home producer in this great difficulty.
  I turn to another point which concerns the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act. When we were considering that Measure in Committee I made the point, which I am glad to see was also made by the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), that consumers should be properly protected against all monopolies whether they are agricultural marketing boards or whatever their nature may be. I regretted at that time that these marketing boards were not brought within the scope of that Act. There we have the proper tribunal to hear complaints by consumers. There we have the Monopolies Commission which must make a published report to Parliament.
  The Minister today stated his alternative. Let us see what it is. It is not a very simple alternative. It is to have a two-way channel into this committee of investigation. It may be initiated by the Minister or by the consumers' committees—not, of course, by anybody else in the body politic. When the investigation committee are considering a problem which is submitted to it, the Minister suddenly has an over-riding power to take action. That is something quite foreign to the Monopolies Act. The Minister has kept agricultural marketing schemes out of the scope of the Monopolies Act where they would have had a proper judicial hearing under a simple procedure. Instead, he has made them liable to this rather hole in the corner procedure where the Minister can pre-judge the issue while the committee of investigation are deliberating. That appears to be a most improper way of dealing with this problem.
  If this Bill is, as its adherents suggest, merely a stop-gap Measure, it is vital that the framework should be something to which additions can be made in order to erect a reasonably good judicial

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  building at the end of it. If the Government are opposed to the suggestion that the Monopolies Commission should be allowed to consider these questions—and I cannot see why they should be opposed when they have one member of the Commission on the committee of investigation—let them construct a proper judicial tribunal so that not only the Minister and the consumers' committee but anybody aggrieved shall be able to complain about prices or other restrictive practices. Let such a tribunal present reports to Parliament in the same way as reports of the Monopolies Commission must be presented. I should like to see that method extended further than the marketing schemes to include complaints about excessive margins on distribution.
  We have been told a grand story by the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) about the broccoli which was tied up with a bit of ribbon. The ribbon extended from Cornwall up to Covent Garden. At the Cornish end it was worth one farthing and at Covent Garden it was worth eightpence. It was a very long ribbon, which must have cost more than eightpence; how he got it in these days I do not know. The proper way to deal with these problems is to bring them before the appropriate tribunal into the light of day. In this Bill the Government have a great opportunity to construct a fact-finding tribunal which will bring its deliberations to Parliament. Instead, the Government think they are protecting consumers by giving a Minister dictatorial powers to interfere while a tribunal is deliberating. I hope the Government will have second thoughts about this provision, which is a great mistake. The Government have missed an opportunity.
  I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain why the Government have cut out from the provisions of the Agricultural Marketing Acts the power of forming boards to deal with secondary products. I refer to Clause 14 of this measure. I know that the bacon marketing scheme was not a great success. In the Parliament of those days I had a great deal to do with the working of that scheme. I know many of the reasons why it failed. There was, before the war, a proposal to set up a marketing board for cream. All that type of product will
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  be excluded by this Clause. I cannot think why it is necessary to cut out all secondary products from the marketing schemes. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give us the reasons, which the Minister himself did not do.
  In conclusion, I do not think enough credit has been given in this Debate to those men who, in the past, and ever since 1931, have devoted their time to organising the marketing of agricultural produce as members of the marketing boards. Thinking back for 17 years I can say that they are men who gave up their time, at very great personal sacrifice, to make these boards a great success. It is the co-operation of these great farmer-politicians—though they are not politicians in the sense that we are politicians—these farmer-administrators, which has built up the agricultural industry. Unfortunately, during the war, their opportunities for securing efficiency in distribution were not very great, because all their powers of distribution were taken away by the Minister of Food. If we can hand back those powers to the farmer-administrators at the earliest opportunity we shall find, in agriculture, the same efficiency in distribution as we now find in production. I beg the Minister of Agriculture to clear the decks for action, and get something rather better than this Bill by taking the powers of the Minister of Food as soon as possible.
  8.53 p.m.
  Mr. Kenyon: The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), like many other hon. Members on the other side of the House, does not seem to have much use for the Ministry of Food. I must admit that when I hear the Minister of Food or the Parliamentary Secretary speaking upon agricultural questions, cold shivers run down my back, but, as this is not a food Debate, I will not proceed any further, although some day I may have the opportunity of dealing with the Minister of Food when he speaks about agricultural affairs.
  It has been said that this is a minor Bill. That is so, but it is a very important one. It is a Bill which will deal, or will give the opportunity for the boards to deal, with the most precarious side of the agricultural industry, a side which, at present, is not catered for by other boards. I think the agricultural industry,

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  and especially the horticultural section, will recognise in this Bill an opportunity to set itself on the stable and constructive road from production through distribution to consumption. Nothing has given the agricultural industry of this country greater satisfaction than the success of the schemes which were set up under the Agricultural Marketing Act—the Milk Board, the Potato Board, and so on. The effect of the Milk Board in setting the milk industry of the country on its feet after its most appalling experience will stand out in agricultural history in a very remarkable way. These boards have given a stability and a confidence to the industry by removing the uncertainty caused by erratic and very often chaotic marketing. Under them, the producer has the knowledge that his work will be properly rewarded, and he can plan accordingly with safety.
  The position of growers of vegetables and fruit is among the most precarious of all engaged in agricultural production. The ordinary consumer does not recognise how precarious this work is. Just when the fruit is on the point of setting, strong winds, heavy rain or keen frosts will completely destroy the work of 12 months. Similarly, just when vegetables are in the most delicate stage keen east winds or prolonged drought will also cause disaster. So we find that this section of the industry has to recoup itself when there is a good season, during which the prices of products are increased to recoup the growers for their previous losses. When imports come into the country in a good season, as they often do, the producer is unable to recoup himself for his previous losses, and I think this is where the boards will be able to level out and to stabilise the prices and the market for the producer.
  The schemes will deal with the most difficult aspect of the produce, because it is the most perishable. In pre-war days, from the Manchester area—what is called the Manchester Mosses, where a tremendous amount of lettuce and vegetables is grown—two trains of 40 wagons each left every week for Convent Garden, loaded mainly with lettuce. The experience of the growers in that area was this: if, when the lettuce was ready for sending, a spell of cold weather came over the country nobody wanted the lettuce; the result was that through no fall in price, or
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  anything which the producer, the distributor or the retailer could control, but purely through a freak in the weather, tremendous losses were very often incurred. I have seen millions of lettuce ploughed into the ground simply and solely because of freak weather. Here is where the boards can come in and set up what some hon. Members have described as the "quick freeze" system, by which these products can be safeguarded against both the weather and falls in prices. I hope these growers will be able to take advantage of that provision.
  Another thing which is not generally recognised in the competition from imports from abroad is that the exporting countries send to us the best of their produce. Nobody can grow an entirely perfect crop; there is always the best, the second best, and the poor. But the farmer tries to market the lot. The exporting countries abroad market the lot, but save the worst for their own consumers. Here, we have to sell both the best and the worst to our own consumers. That is where the marketing boards will have to grade crops so that, in competition with imports from abroad, the best compete with the best, and not the second best or the worst with the imported best. The marketing boards will have a tremendous amount of work to do in guiding the produce on to the market and into different markets so that that may take place.
  I once heard an hon. Member, a medical man—I do not see him here tonight—say that onions consisted of 97 per cent. water and 3 per cent. stink. That may be the case, but they are much liked by the housewives of this country. The onions grown here this year and last, with those which we imported, did not meet the requirements of the housewives of the country. They all arrived on the market together, and we shall have to wait something like six to nine months before the next crop is available. Had those onions been brought on to the market gradually, the most perishable first, the situation would have been completely different. This is an example of how the marketing board can gradually ease the import and home production position.
  Some of my hon. Friends have criticised the Bill because it does not take into account the interest of the consumers

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  as, they say, it should. These are to be producers' boards. Nothing helps production more, or gives the producer greater confidence, than the knowledge that he will receive a proper and reasonable return for his produce. The people comprising these boards will be experienced people; they will know all about production, they will know the trade, and they will have the industry at heart. Nothing would destroy the confidence of the producer more than to know, if consumers were members of the board, that the marketing board was haggling and quibbling between producer and consumer over prices. It is far better that the consumers' interest should be watched from outside the board than from within it. The greatest safeguard for the consumer in the matter of price, or against abuse by the boards of their powers, is public opinion. The consumer has the safeguard of this House itself, and if the boards abuse their position, either with regard to conditions or prices, or in any other way, it would not be very long before attention was called to the fact in this House and action taken.
  I now wish to deal with the question which has been raised on Clause 4. Hon. Member's opposite seem to be rather afraid of this Clause. The hon. Baronet who first raised the question admitted that it acted both in favour of the producer and the consumer, and vice versa. I may be entirely wrong, but I look at this Clause in a different way; I think it concerns far more important things than price. Under Clause 2, the boards have the power to limit production in a certain respect. They follow the lines of the potato marketing board which can fix the basic acreage of a farmer, who, if he goes beyond that acreage, is fined. I feel that a similar position may arise in this matter. A board may come along and limit the acreage of a certain produce, but the Minister may feel that the limitation is wrong, and that the acreage ought to be larger. If that question has to go to a committee of investigation, and if it takes six months before a decision is reached, then the sowing season and the growing season will have passed. That is a position which may arise, and which may be covered by this Clause. Again, I may be entirely wrong, but I feel that is one of the main reasons why it has been put in.
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  I wish to touch upon one other point before I conclude. I am glad to see some change in the disciplinary committee. For a long time I have felt that the present method of dealing with delinquents under these Acts is not in the best tradition of British justice. It does not give confidence or a feeling that one is being justly dealt with when those who form the board are the same people who prosecute a man under the powers of the board, and finally judge him. I had the opportunity, before the war, of being present when the Potato Marketing Board had before it farmers who were charged with offences against it. I know just how those farmers felt after they had been fined by this board. They felt it was absolutely unjust. They would have been far more satisfied had they been fined in the civil courts. I think it would be far better if the civil courts dealt with offenders rather than that they should be dealt with by the boards themselves.
  I welcome this Bill because I feel it will put upon sound foundations what hitherto has been a precarious industry. I think the balancing of the industry is a good thing—the levelling out of inequalities which develop from prices, markets and from the weather by establishing "quick freeze" departments where the glut can be accepted to be passed to the market when a shortage occurs. I believe this Bill will bring the same stability into the industry of fruit and vegetable production that the Milk Marketing Board brought into the milk industry when it was in an appalling and chaotic condition.
  9.11 p.m.
  Mr. Hurd: I would like straightaway to congratulate the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) on talking more good, hard common-sense from the Benches opposite than we have heard in any other speech from those Benches today. The Minister gave nothing more than a tepid commendation of this Bill. Perhaps that is why hon. Members behind him have blown hot and cold as one speech has followed another. From this side of the House we give our qualified blessing to the Bill, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) said in his speech. Frankly, it worries me that running through this Bill there is a thread of distrust of producers. It has been expressed openly by the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and it has also

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  been expressed openly by Lord Lucas, who is a Government colleague of the Minister. In the report of the Lucas Committee, of which he was chairman, proposals were put forward for imposing state control of agricultural marketing, proposals which we regard as fantastic Socialist nonsense. We have to look only one stage further, in another "Let Us Face the Future," to see the farmer as tenant of the State bound to sell his produce to the State. As I have said, we think that is fantastic Socialist nonsense.
  The Minister was careful to say that this Bill does not prejudice any action which the Government may feel it desirable to take upon the Lucas Committee proposals. It is perhaps something that the Minister has not himself espoused that cause today, but he has shown himself a good enough Socialist to want the State to have a finger in every pie concerned with agricultural marketing. In Clause 1 of the Bill he has taken power to appoint not less than two and not more than one-fifth of the members of every board. His nominees are to be persons:
  "who in his opinion are qualified for appointment as having had experience and shown capacity in commerce, finance, administration, public affairs or the organisation of workers."
  Why trade union experience should be considered a qualification for organising economically the marketing of milk, eggs, tomatoes or cucumbers I do not know, but I do know this: it would be a terribly mixed party if the suggestions which have been made from some of the back benches opposite were adopted and if consumers, including co-operative societies, and distributors also had seats on these marketing boards. It is surely essential to get a team, to get people—I would agree with the bon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) that there might very well be some women among them—who have much the same background and who can work together.
  One of the obvious defects of most of the boards running the nationalised industries is, that the members of the hoards have been picked from here, there and everywhere. In the agricultural marketing boards we have been fortunate so far in getting men who have had the same background, and who can and will work together. I think it is most important to preserve this for the sake of the smooth working of the schemes.
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  On this question of the Minister's nominees, I should like to say to the Minister that I do not think he has always chosen his men wisely. I am thinking particularly of some of his recent nominees to the county agricultural executive committees. I do not think they are proving very happy choices. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies, to give the House a definite assurance that political considerations will not enter in any way into the appointment of the Minister's nominees on these marketing hoards. It is essential that the members of the boards should be able to work as a team if these marketing schemes are to go ahead successfully.
  Clauses 2 and 3, I agree, as my hon. Friends have already done, are desirable for safeguarding the public interest. which might be damaged by some action of a marketing board. The Minister in those Clauses takes power to give a direction to a board to prevent such damage. and the board can ask for a committee of investigation; and on this the Minister makes his decision—no doubt, if it is a sensible board and the Minister is sensible, this will be with the full concurrence of the board. That is what we want. We do not want the Minister to interfere from the outside not fully understanding the board's difficulties, while the board does not understand the Minister's point of view. I am pretty certain that in most of these cases the Minister's decision can be taken and put into effect with the concurrence of the board. That is what I hope to see.
  However, I do feel, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond has already said, that Clause 4 goes much too far. It does, I think, indicate clearly the Minister's distrust of the producers' marketing boards. What he is doing by this Clause is to take power to give the boards immediate directions, overriding their authority, before there has been any investigation. It has been suggested by the hon. Member for Chorley that this may very well be reasonable, and would not cause any great inconvenience if the subject of the direction was, say, concerned with the limitation of acreage, or something of that kind. If that is what the Minister intends, and if that is how the Minister intends to use this Clause, then the Clause should be drawn clearly in that sense. What is worrying my hon.

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  Friends is that if this immediate direction, before any inquiry were applied, say, to the price of a perishable product—it might be broccoli, or plums, or cucumbers, or tomatoes—it could cause serious loss to the growers of the product, who, whether the Minister's action was justified or not, would not be able to recoup themselves afterwards from the Minister. That Clause will need looking into very carefully. I should vote against it in Committee as it stands, because I think it is drawn much too widely.
  On this side of the House we want farmers to take seriously their responsibilities in this sphere of marketing. They will not do that if the Minister is to dog their footsteps at every turn. The members of marketing boards are not a set of cut-throats. We in the farming community have put up some of our most able men ever since 1933, when the Milk Marketing Board was formed, to go on to these boards. Yet they have not been content to rely on their own judgment and business experience but have employed first-class men. Mention has been made of Mr. Sidney Foster as general manager, who had already gained wide experience of milk distribution through co-operative societies. The Board picked the best man they could and paid him a good salary. He has been a first-class servant, not only to the Board but to the producers and distributors of milk in this country.
  That is an instance of the producers' marketing boards showing that they have enough business acumen to know when they should employ someone with experience wider than or in a different sphere to their own. I think that the Milk Marketing Board made a very good start before the war in serving not only producers but consumers. Their first concern was to safeguard the prices the producers were getting. In the West country, we well remember when milk was going into the chocolate factories at 5d. or 6d. a gallon. There was complete chaos in the milk industry. The first job which the Board had to do was to get the price structure right. They did that, and they were just coming on to constructive work for the benefit of consumers as well as producers when the war came. I need only recall to the House the initiative which the producers'
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  marketing boards took in the milk in schools scheme and in providing milk for factory workers. They showed great vision in developing the market for liquid milk which was to the benefit of producers certainly, but also to the benefit of consumers and the general health of the people.
  Then the work which they have done in eliminating cross-country journeys in the collection of milk has saved money and helped to reduce the gap between the price the producer gets and the price the consumer pays for milk. They have established new depots in areas where milk production was increasing and there was need to have a pool through which the milk could best be directed to whichever centre of consumption needed it most at the moment. That is all to the credit of the Milk Marketing Board. They have also, more recently, carried into effect a cooperative scheme for grass drying for small farmers, and the running of cattle breeding stations using artificial insemination which will help to raise the milk yield of the cows. That is good constructive work and not the work of cut-throats holding the community up to ransom.
  The Potato Marketing Board have also realised their responsibility to the public as well as to the growers of potatoes. I would remind the Minister of the scheme which the Board carried out at Bishop Auckland. In a year when there were heavy supplies of potatoes, they sought to discover how far, by reducing the price of potatoes, they could stimulate their consumption in areas suffering severe unemployment, where the income of consumers was low. That was a very useful experiment and showed that the board had the interests of the public as well as the narrower interests of the growers at heart. When the war came, the Potato Marketing Board was put into cold storage. The Milk Board has become little better than an accounting office of the Minister of Food. It has been allowed to do a little bit with cattle breeding centres and grass drying, but it cannot now tackle at all seriously the gap between producers' prices and consumers' prices.
  I ask the Government to say frankly that the introduction of this Bill means that the Government are now going to

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  give the farmers an opportunity to show what they can do by the organisation of marketing to give better service to consumers. That is what we are interested in. We have now prices more or less right. We have a system of price-fixing which is agreed between the political parties as being common sense, and which is working smoothly. Now we want to see the producers' marketing boards not worrying themselves so much about prices but worrying themselves about their proper job of the economic marketing of home produce and the service which the producers should give to the consumers.
  If we are to give a fair run to any such organised efforts by producers the Government must hold a fair balance between imports and home supplies, especially at seasons when there are peak supplies coming in from home sources—whether it be lettuces, broccoli or onions. This will require close working between the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Food and the Board of Trade. That is why we think that the Market Supply Committee should be retained. The Minister may assure us that he is such a close "buddy" of the Minister of Food that it is quite unnecessary to have a market supply committee; but Ministers change, and his next "buddy" might not be so congenial. Why take away this useful little committee which may be needed? I myself should like to see that committee kept in being, because, as many hon. Members have shown, there is a vital need for the closest understanding and working between these three Departments. Sometimes indeed I wonder whether it is as close as the Minister would have us believe. There have been instances which made us doubtful.
  If, after listening to the speeches from this side of the House, the Minister still has any doubts about trusting producers to tackle this job of marketing organisation, I would remind him of what he and I saw in Sweden three years ago. My hon. Friend the Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) has already mentioned the example of the Swedish farmers, working in a country which is largely industrial, like our own, and not catering for the export market, who have shown what a producers' organisation can do in marketing, serving the interests of consumers as well as producers. Ask the housewives in Stockholm today if they are satisfied with the system of milk distribution in
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  that city and a very favourable answer will be given—favourable because the producers have tackled that job, having been allowed to do so by the Government in Sweden. The Minister knows that very well, because he and I saw that organisation when we were over there.
  I commend to the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, who evidently has not studied closely what producers can do in other countries, a book which has just appeared called "Farmers' Co-operation in Sweden," by Mr. Ake Gullander. It is easy English to read, very straightforward; I am sure she would enjoy it, and she might learn something from it. The farmers of Sweden have not shown themselves to be thugs and cut-throats; nor indeed are the British farmers, certainly not when judged by what they have done with their marketing schemes since they started in 1933.
  If farmers here are to go ahead with that kind of organisation, on the path trodden so successfully by the farmers of Sweden, the existing marketing boards must now be taken out of cold storage. We want an assurance from this Government—it would not be necessary if there were a Conservative Government in power, but it must be given by a Socialist Government—that if the producers of this country go ahead with marketing organisation to close the gap between the producer and the consumer they will not at the next General Election be faced with a threat of commodity commissions, and all that nonsense set out in the Lucas Report, thrust on to their organisation. There are today grave doubts about the Government's intentions, and what the Minister said earlier on did not clear our minds and will not clear the minds of farmers as to how genuine the Government are in backing farmers in taking any action under what the Minister has called "a little modest Bill." True it is, but it can be turned to good account for both producers and consumers.
  The state of our country today, from the speeches we hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, does not allow any more conflicts to arise between the interests of town and country. I have sought in my speech to show that those who live by the land can serve the interests of the whole community and we can do it in a public-spirited way. If

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  we need checking by the Minister, he is taking full powers to do this in Clauses 2 and 3, and we recognise the need for that. But let us get out of our heads that today in our industrialised island there is scope for the old conflicts between the town and country. I was sorry to hear the hon. Member for Blackburn talk as she did. We could talk just the same kind of stuff about the people of Blackburn, but it would not do anyone any good. We have to recognise in this country that we must use our land to full advantage, we must be sure that what is produced on our land is taken to the consumer in good order, and in the most economical way.
  It is our view on this side that, given the opportunity, the farmers of this country can do this job of marketing most economically and efficiently for the benefit of the public as a whole, and without the need for either big salaries, commodity commissions, subsidies, and all the paraphernalia that we find in the Socialist State. We think that if farmers are allowed to use this Bill and are given support and encouragement by this Government, and they certainly would be by a Conservative Government, they can make a success of this job.
  9.32 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. George Brown): It is not surprising that the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) should try to wind up with a little vigorous party feeling for his side. On the whole, on agricultural things generally and on agricultural marketing in particular, he has rather a sticky wicket on which to bat. I was interested to hear the beginning of his remarks and to compare them with the beginning of the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale), who was wholeheartedly in favour of marketing boards while the hon. Gentleman who wound up—I took down his words— "gave qualified support to the Bill." I am not really surprised. That is historically much more the correct Tory line. In 1931, and again now, it was this party and this Government—for the Government of that day was of this party—which unfurled the flag of marketing boards and are now keeping it flying.
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  The hon. Gentleman referred to suspicions of marketing boards which he said he thought he detected running through this Bill. The interesting thing is that we have been attacked from elsewhere on exactly the opposite count, that we are too wholehearted in our acceptance in this Bill of the principle of producers' marketing boards. If we are facing fire from both sides at once on the same thing, it is probable that we are just about right. He asked me one question which I would like to deal with because I was rather amused at what he went on to say. He hoped there would be no political considerations applying in the appointments which the Minister made, and he made some unfortunate remarks about Socialist appointments on county agricultural executive committees. Let us nail this now: there never have been any political considerations that have applied in any of the appointments my right hon. Friend has made to any of those committees. If the hon. Gentleman has in mind any men or women who he thinks are not up to the job that is a different issue—I would be glad to know privately who they are so I could look into the matter—but it is not the same thing.
  The hon. Gentleman went on to defend and to praise the far-sightedness of the Milk Marketing Board in taking Mr. Sidney Foster. What would have been said if it had been my right hon. Friend who had taken Mr. Sidney Foster from the Co-operative Society and given him a job? It would have been "Jobs for the boys" and "Political considerations." When the hon. Member went on to talk about no big salaries being needed by the marketing boards, since he had just made that comparison, I was surprised. On the whole, I was in agreement with him in one general point which he made. The Bill is a good Bill. My right hon. Friend modestly called it a little Bill, but he is as modest in that as in everything he does. This is a very important step forward. Perhaps it is easier for me than for my right hon. Friend to declare that, since it is so much his personal responsibility.
  The hon. Member for Newbury said there had been some tendency today for there to creep into our Debate something that really ought to be out-dated. While I accept the general line of the hon. Gentleman I do not accept his allocation of the reasons, and I will show why. He

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  said we have got back to the town versus country atmosphere. That, however, is now dead.
  I was very much in agreement with what was said by the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) and the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass). It is important for producers to remember that the whole is at all times greater than the part, and that if they seem to be claiming powers, rights and freedoms from what the hon. Gentleman called, if I may use his own word—I cannot at the moment think of one better —"checking" in the public interest, then they will create the very kind of suspicions which he and all of us deprecate and will give rise to the town versus country atmosphere.
  Mr. Hurd: I am not seeking to—
  Mr. Brown: If unconsciously or unintentionally, perhaps, they react to reasonable protections for what is called the public interest, then that will be the result. Hon. Gentlemen on the other side have today been tempted to regard the part as greater than the whole.
  I hope to deal with one or two of the remarks made from this side, in particular by the hon. Lady the Member for South Battersea (Mrs. Ganley), whose constituent I am, or used to be, in a different co-operative connection. I was sorry that the tendency seemed to arise to talk of producers and producers' marketing boards as being a priori anti-consumer in outlook and policy. We must be careful to keep such trends out of what we are both saying and doing, otherwise we shall do the greatest harm to the industry and the interests of the country as a whole, since agriculture is so vital a part of our economy, not only today, temporarily, but, as most of us believe, permanently.
  The main issues arising today have been Clauses 4 and 13, about both of which I hope to speak. I have also been asked certain other things. The Lucas Report has tended to obtrude into our discussions. So that there shall be no misunderstanding let me make it quite clear what my right hon. Friend did say, which is in contradistinction to the statement of the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Richmond. He said that the Bill, which stands on its merits, is not a stopgap, as somebody rather unfortunately described it, and is an important
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  step forward in the field of agricultural marketing. The Bill, said my right hon. Friend, does not prejudice the consideration which the Government have already said they are giving and must give, as any Government would have to do, to the complicated question of distribution and marketing in the much wider field; clearly we have to consider the recommendations made by the Lucas and Williams Committees and other people. The hon. and gallant Baronet, however, said that he wholeheartedly rejected and threw behind him the Lucas Report and everything else. That is all right if one has not got the responsibility and can be as enthusiastic and—if I may use the word kindly—as juvenile as that.
  Sir T. Dugdale: Not to me.
  Mr. Brown: But my right hon. Friend and the Government have the responsibility for this job. We have to look at the obvious problems which exist in the field of distribution at all its stages. The attitude of my right hon. Friend in considering these questions and giving a careful thought as to what shall be the next step, and taking into account the Lucas Report and all the other things, is a much more proper way of approaching the problem. I rather gathered that the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) felt that also, when he talked of the need carefully to consider the whole range of food policy.
  The hon. Baronet asked when a start would be made on reviving boards which, at the moment, are in suspension, and various other hon. Members have asked what is the meaning of the Bill. Although I cannot say when a start will be made on reviving suspended boards the point can best be dealt with if I first answer the related questions. New schemes are coming forward, and are also on the stocks, and with the possibility that producers will themselves ask for the revival of suspended boards, and will talk and move towards new boards, it seems to us that this is the time to clear the field legislatively. Then new schemes as they come forward and old schemes, if they are asked for, can go forward on an up-to-date basis.
  We should not delay in getting the picture right. That is the meaning of the Bill, and our approach and the

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  answer to the hon. Baronet's question is in that. We certainly believe in this form of agricultural marketing to meet this particular question; that is the reason for bringing the Bill forward.
  Sir T. Dugdale: It does not mean anything at all.
  Mr. Brown: I am sorry the hon. and gallant Gentleman says that it does not mean anything at all, but he had better read it tomorrow and try again. It means that as new schemes come forward we want them to be in accord with present day thought on this matter and to be in a position to put them into operation.
  Mr. Hurd: Does it mean that if potato producers want to restart their marketing scheme tomorrow, the Minister will give his consent?
  Mr. Brown: There is nothing to prevent them. I cannot be expected to say, at this stage, what will happen to a certain proposal before it is formulated, before it has gone through the processes laid down in the Bill. The other King Charles's head is the by now rather fashionable suspicion of the Ministry of Food, the dangers and so forth. [An HON. MEMBER: "Be careful."] The hon. Baronet began by asking to whom would the boards be responsible Ministerially; would they be under the responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture? The answer is that they will. I think it a little silly, if I may say so without offence, to keep on raising this hoary point of supposed confusion and disagreements and of overriding one another between my right hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food. This is the sort of team that acts co-operatively and takes general responsibility for decisions reached; in fact, they consult each other. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite would do better to stop thinking that we behave as previous Conservative Governments did, because we do not.
  The hon. Baronet also asked what consideration would govern the choice of the Minister's five nominees. The answer is that the considerations are set out in the Bill in Clause 1. Those will be the sort of considerations taken into account by the Minister, who will choose the very best people he can find. Then the hon. Baronet came to the question of Clause 4.
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  This has been picked up again and again from the other side of the House. I think we all agree that, if it were always possible, if time always permitted and the nature of the crop always permitted, the ideal way to deal with this would be to proceed under Clause 2. I suspect that will nearly always happen. Indeed, for the most part it will be in the hands of the marketing board itself to determine whether the matter goes under that procedure.
  I would interpolate that I think that a number of hon. Members have overlooked the words which occur in Clause 4, on page 5, line 32, to the effect that the Minister will give a temporary direction under the Clause if there is a change to be introduced or about to be introduced by the marketing board in the existing situation. So, if there is always adequate notice of a proposed change, and if, in the event of the matter being referred to the Minister and his notifying the board that he proposes to make an order, and the board ask for the matter to be referred to the committee of investigation, if the board is willing to suspend the operation of the change until the committee has reported, Clause 2 procedure can always operate. The operation of the provisions of Clause 4 arise only when something is about to be done which is a change in the situation. That answers the hon. Member who said "Supposing the Minister gives a direction under Clause 4 and tells a board to reduce say the price of tomatoes from 10d. to 8d." It arises only if something is to be done by the board which changes the existing situation and which meets the considerations set down in Clause 2, which the Minister feels to be against the public interest, and which, if it were allowed to continue until the committee had reported, would mean that any public mischief entailed thereby would have been done by that time. Those are the only circumstances in which Clause 4 powers can be used.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Can the hon. Gentleman give any precedent he has in mind?
  Sir T. Dugdale: How would what the Parliamentary Secretary has said answer the soft fruit problem? I gave the example of strawberries.
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. and gallant Gentlemen will allow me to proceed I intend to deal with the points they raise.
  Let us bear in mind that any orders made under Clause 4, like those under Clause 2, are subject to negative Resolution procedure in this House when they are made, so that there will be quick and ready provision for dealing with them. A further consideration is that it is not always the price which one envisages as being the compelling reason for anticipating damage to the public interest in this field. My hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) referred to one consideration. There are obviously any number of things which might happen—the limitation of the class of persons to whom the soft fruit crop is to be sold, a decision to sell too much of such a crop for processing, with the result that the supply of fresh fruit for the consumer is too small. Matters of that kind, other than the matter of price, might seem to be against the public interest. Those are the circumstances in which the procedure might have to be used. They are the only circumstances. In almost all cases it would be within the power of the marketing board itself to decide whether that procedure was used or whether we should proceed under Clause 2, by giving sufficient notice, not deciding in April to do something in May; or, if adequate notice was impossible, for the board to say "Since you take that view we will await the outcome of the committee of investigation procedure."
  There is a matter of principle involved. The Minister would be open to the most grave accusations from almost every other interest in the community, and I suspect from most producers privately also, if he had failed to provide means of dealing with a threat to the public interest, if it looked like occurring, and if it could be carried through in the time in which some committee was discussing whether it was or Was not something against the public interest. It would be said, after that had happened, that the Government, who are the Government not of a section for a section but of the people as a whole, had failed in their duty to see that something was not done by a section of the community which would harm the community. The fact that we suspect that the procedure will hardly ever, if
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  at all, be used does not invalidate that consideration. It is one of those things that a prudent Government, having got to the point of Clause 2—and there is no disagreement about the desirability of Clause 2—must go on to do.
  The hon. Member for North Cumberland and the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) asked if there were any precedents. I have not had very much time for research since the point was raised, but I am advised that in 1935 there was a milk dispute which went to the committee, and was with the committee from September to April, and on which the Minister was able, and had, to take retrospective action. It would not always be possible to take successful retrospective action, particularly with regard to soft fruit, and the very fact that it had to be done is an example of the kind of thing which might very well happen again, and for which these particular powers are wanted.
  I come now to Clause 13, which has been the subject of major consideration. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite are investing this particular Clause with much more significance than it really deserves. This again is connected with their "King Charles's head." The situation is that there has been a change in the general situation, in Government organisation and the general outlook on this matter, since that body was first provided for. There is a Ministry of Food and there is a national policy, on nutrition and otherwise, operated through the Ministry. The question of co-ordination of home production and imports and the general food policy is one for which there is now clear Government responsibility. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is clearly concerned with all these things from a producer point of view, and we feel that in the new situation, and having regard also to the 1947 Agriculture Act the market supply committee has no longer any valid reason for existing.
  As to its being a brake on the Minister of Food, if that is the idea I would point out that quite obviously it could also be the opposite. On whom it would be a brake depends on the composition of the Committee. If the personnel leaned one way or the other the committee would change its support from one Minister to the other. It might

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  well be that in certain circumstances producers would be very sorry that the committee did, in fact, exist.
  The hon. Member for North Cumberland talked about the need for incentives to get farmers to produce. His speech was much more to my liking than the speech of the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin), who said that farmers could do the job if only they have confidence. The answer is that they are doing the job, if only hon. Members would give them the credit for it; that must mean that they have that confidence. The answer to the hon. Member is that the advisory services are doing a good job in providing encouragement and assistance in building up standards of work, and so on. Do not let us forget the importance of the producers themselves taking the lead in this matter.
  I interposed, during the speech of the hon. and learned Member for St. Ives (Mr. Beechman), on the question of grading and packing. I do not believe that we cannot do as well as other people. I believe that it is most important and as the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) said, there is very great need for producers to be encouraged to take the lead themselves in bringing up to standard the grading and packing of their products. Various other matters were raised by the hon. Member for North Cumberland—
  Mr. Beechman: I must interrupt, I did not say—
  Mr. Brown: I cannot give way, as I have not much time. Various other matters were raised with which I think I might deal by writing to the hon. Member.
  There was one question as to why we do not rely on powers of revocation. I think the answer is that that would be taking a steamroller to crack a nut. To revoke a whole scheme for a matter of this kind would be much too drastic. Such an action would do untold harm. Indeed, we think the reverse is much the better way. The hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) asked a question about the representation of small producers on the boards. She appeared to fear that they might be pushed out by the larger growers. The answer is that the producer representatives on the
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  boards are the responsibility of the producers. The number of small men in the horticultural industry is so great that, on the whole, I would have thought that if they chose to do it they could take care of this matter pretty well. They must be left to do so. There is no way by which we can do it.
  The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) and the hon. Member for South Battersea (Mrs. Ganley) made speeches in which there appeared to be a fallacy. The point is that these are producer boards. They are producer cooperatives. They are co-operative undertakings voluntarily entered into; nothing we can do can turn them into anything else. An important point about any cooperative undertaking is that the members must appoint the committee. The co-operative society to which the hon. Lady and I both belong would take a very dim view if the farmers came along, and said that they wished to put a member on our management committee. We would tell them to join the society and, as members, they could take part in the election and could put up to be elected. The same applies to these producer boards. They are members in the sense that they are registered producers. It is their board—their voluntary undertaking. They can vote it out of existence just as they can set it up. We could say, "You shall have distributors and co-operators on your board," but we would not get very many marketing schemes in that case and those that we did get would be voted out of existence. We must bear that in mind.
  We may feel that other matters ought to be tackled. We may feel that something wider ought to be done about distribution. There are ample safeguards for the public interest and for the consumer interest in the scheme for the consumer committees which can get the accounts and other information. Other safeguards include the committee of investigation; the Minister's powers; the Minister's representatives on the board; the Minister's powers of direction under Clauses 2 and 4. There are ample safeguards there, but we cannot turn this into something which it is not. It is a producers' board, a co-operative undertaking voluntarily entered into and, as such, the right to appoint the members must remain with the registered producers who.

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  I submit, are analogous to the members of a co-operative society in a different field.
  I should like to deal, very quickly, with one point mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for St. Ives, that this might lead to nationalisation. I hope that by now he has realised that Clause 2 (2, d) involves things which, if done, would be a reason for the Minister to give a direction. In other words, we would want to stop it. In addition, Clause 9 is not a power given to the State, but a power to be given to the producers' boards. We do not nationalise industries by handing them over to boards of this nature. It is rather fantastic to try to frighten anybody with the idea that there can be any possibility of nationalisation arising out of this scheme.
  There were a number of other points to which I should have liked to refer, but I have not got sufficient time. I ask hon. Members to allow me to write to them on certain matters. Finally, I say that this Bill has been generally welcomed all round the House. It is a great step forward. When my .right hon. Friend made his announcement after the Report of the Lucas Committee he said that he would do certain things. As is quite usual—as the agricultural industry now understands is quite usual, almost for the first time in its life—when the Minister says that he will do something, he does it. He has now brought forward this Bill in accordance with what he said he would do.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is not the hon. Gentleman going to pay the slightest attention to any of the matters which have been raised on behalf of Scotland?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley) rose in his place, and claimed to move. "That the Question be now put."
  Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
  Question put accordingly, and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  AGRICULTURAL MARKETING [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84.—(King's Recommendation signified.)

  Major MILNER in the Chair
  Motion made, and Question proposed.
  "That it is expedient, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Agricultural Marketing Acts, 1931 to 1933, and for purposes connected therewith, to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any increase in the sums payable, out of moneys so provided. under Section eleven of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, to the Agricultural Marketing Fund and the Agricultural Marketing (Scotland) Fund, being an increase attributable to so much of the said Act of the present Session as provides for extending the functions of boards or the areas to which schemes apply, extends the definition of the expression 'agricultural product' or enables schemes to be made applicable to Northern Ireland or any part of Northern Ireland;

  (b) any increase in the sums payable, out of moneys so provided, under subsection (5) of Section sixteen of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, in respect of the remuneration of the chairman or other members of, or of the secretary, officers, agents or servants of, or in respect of other expenses of, commissions or committees constituted or appointed under the last mentioned Act, being an increase attributable to so much of the said Act of the present Session as extends the functions of such commissions or committees or requires that when such commissions or committees are considering schemes applicable to Northern Ireland or any part of Northern Ireland there shall be additional members thereof."—[Mr. T. Williams.]

  Mr. Douglas Marshall: Are we to have no explanation of this Money Resolution? If we are not—
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): If the hon. Gentleman insists upon an explanation, I think it will be very easy to reply, but, if he will read Clause 20 (3) of this Bill, I would assure him that there is no intention to go outside anything which is stated in that Subsection. Should the administrative costs be slightly more, perhaps due to wider powers given to the marketing board, to a chairman of a committee of investigation or any other chairman of any committee, we are simply taking power to cover increased expenses, and that is all.
  Mr. Marshall: I did not intend to say anything on this Resolution, and would

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  not have risen but for one of the last points made by the Parliamentary Secretary, who made a statement, with part of which I entirely agree. He stated that we could pack as well as anybody. That is true. But will he see to it that our producers are supplied with the necessary packing materials.
  Mr. Gerald Williams: May I ask if the Minister is going to make any provision in this Financial Resolution for paying compensation under Clause 4. According to the Parliamentary Secretary, it looks as if Clause 4 will be included in the Bill, and, when we come to the Committee stage and want to move Amendments to provide compensation for those suffering hardship under Clause 4, it will be ruled out of order because there is no financial provision for that purpose. Is the Minister going to listen to the very potent and very strong arguments which have been put forward in the Debate that Clause 4 will cause great hardship to many producers if it is invoked in the way in which it might be under this Bill? The only way to put that right is to give compensation to those people, but we cannot do that unless the provision for it is made at this moment. Accordingly, I ask the Minister if he is going to do anything about it?
  Sir William Darling: In Clause 12 (1) there is a reference to the change in the practice of the payments to the fellmongers or skinners as they are called in Scotland. These fellmongers and skinners have hitherto had the right to sell wool as part of the product of the skins. Now, they are being returned to the Wool Marketing Board, and representations have been made to me that they feel that they should claim compensation because this is a disturbance of the habits and customs of their trade for many centuries. I have been asked to put these representations forward. It will require some financial provision, and I thought that I would mention the matter at this stage.
  Mr. T. Williams: I should have thought that if the hon. Gentleman wished to raise that question, it would have been on the Second Reading of the Bill, and certainly not on the Financial Resolution.
  Sir W. Darling: May I say that it was not for me to raise the question on Second Reading? I was not called.
  Mr. T. Williams: I am afraid that the question raised by the hon. Gentleman is not one that affects the Financial Resolution. The other question raised by the hon. Member for Tonbridge (Mr. G. Williams) concerns a principle of compensation that no Minister could accept. I ought to say to the hon. Gentleman that the question has been discussed in the House. He raised it himself and this is not the first time by any means that we have discussed this question of compensation. First of all, I do not think the necessity for compensation will arise. Secondly, no Minister could accept this principle, because it would create a precedent that would go far and wide wherever it was suggested that by the action of any Minister it might or might not cause injury to bodies, or to an individual. That is the situation which, I think, no Minister could possibly contemplate. Whatever Clause 4 may do, I certainly do not think it is a question where compensation could meet the alleged need that may arise. For that reason the Financial Resolution does not contain arrangements whereby any form of compensation could be paid.
  Mr. G. Williams: May I say that the Minister has made the case for the Opposition that Clause 4 must come out of the Bill.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

  FISH SALES (CHARGES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Fish Sales (Charges) Order, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 2611), dated 30th November, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 1st December, be approved."—[Dr. Surnmerskill.]
  Sir Basil Neven-Spence: May we have an explanation of what this order seeks to do? It is a very bald statement.
  10.5 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summer-skill): The House will recall that on many occasions I have stood at this Box and asked the approval of the House of a fixed charges order. Tonight I ask that the rate of charge on the principal

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  varieties of white fish landed headless should be increased from 10d. to Is. ld. a stone. The increase in the rate of charge on headless fish is related to our desire to remove the incentive which hon. Members who represent fishing constituencies will remember we offered to fishermen in order that, during the war, they should bring in fish without heads. We are now anxious to remove that incentive in order to encourage them to bring them ashore with heads. Of course, it will be realised that it is necessary to introduce a new maximum price order. That came into operation on 4th December with the new charges order. This policy of encouraging the landing of headless fish was introduced during the war in order that the valuable stowage space should be utilised for edible fish. The position has now changed, and the fisherman very often comes in with plenty of space, and, in fact, without a full catch.
  It will be recalled that on many occasions I have been asked in this House to increase the amount of fish meal available for animal feedingstuffs, and we believe that when this order operates fully we shall achieve that objective. In the pre-war year, the home production of fish meal has been estimated at 70,000 tons. In 1947, the corresponding figure was 49,820 tons, and provisional figures for 1948 put the production at, approximately, 56,000 tons. Therefore, I think it will be clear to the House that this order is very necessary. The amendment in the rates charged will leave the question "to head or not to head" to the skipper, because although the lower prices do not actually discourage the heading they simply remove a small incentive.
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Marshall: I do not wish to detain the House for more than a minute or two, but in thanking the Parliamentary Secretary for the explanation she has given there are two points I want to raise. No doubt she will remember that about a year ago I raised this question of the heading of cod and I am very glad that my suggestion has now been brought into effect or that at least some incentive has been given in that direction, although I regret there has been such a delay.
  There is one other point. If I may say so, I do not think the right hon. Lady has
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  been quite fair about it—I do not think she meant to be unfair, but it was unfair in the way it was put. One of the major reasons for originally landing fish without heads was certain forms of agreement with Iceland. In a great number of cases our fishermen were only too willing to land fish whole, but the Ministry of Food directed the other way for their own purposes. Personally, I am very glad that this order has been introduced tonight.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  HANDWOVEN TWEED (PURCHASE TAX)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Snow.]
  10.12 p.m.
  Sir Basil Neven-Spence: There are conflicting views about the general social policy which should be followed in the Islands and Highlands. One school thinks that the economic forces should be allowed to have their way and the population allowed to emigrate until it finds its natural level. The other school thinks the policy should be directed to encouraging the growth of industries in the Islands with a view not merely to arresting the decline in population but to reversing that trend. I think all hon. Members of this House, irrespective of party, support the latter view.
  Unfortunately, the lack of natural resources in the Highlands and Islands very much restricts the field of possible industrial development there. The key to the solution of the problem lies in fostering those forms of employment which will yield a satisfactory cash income to the people and which will fit in with the general rural background, where most of the people are engaged in crofting or fishing, or activities in connection with the tourist trade. The crying need is to encourage the growth of industries which can provide a whole-time or part-time living for the people in or near their homes.
  Furthermore, in order to overcome the severe handicap of high freights, due to the geographical position of this part of the world, it is essential to encourage types of industry which will produce

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  quality goods such as appeal to the high-class market. The woollen industry is pre-eminently an industry of that type, producing quality goods, but it has this additional advantage—it makes use of one of the most important natural resources of the Highlands and Islands. Other industries have grown up in the past and have declined for various reasons, but it looks as if the woollen industry were one which could not merely be established on a permanent basis but which could definitely be expanded in the future.
  I am concerned tonight with the hand-woven tweed section of the woollen industry. It is an ancient industry which has declined in many parts of Britain, but it still survives in the Highlands and Islands, where there is a very strong tradition of craftsmanship. In the Highlands and Islands this industry has not only survived, but has undergone quite considerable expansion. In 1939 the Hebrides alone produced well over four million yards of hand-woven tweed. It brought to the islanders something between £750,000 and £1,000,000. The industry has had many difficulties with which to contend during war and in the post-war period owing to the wool quota, restrictions on spinning, and a great shortage of labour, all of which corresponded with exceptional demand both in the home and overseas markets.
  In Orkney and Shetland on the other hand, though the weaving industry is an ancient one, it has not developed to anything like the extent it has in the Hebrides, in particular. Nevertheless, before the war it was beginning to undergo rapid expansion. Shetland wool has very distinctive qualities. It is of a far higher price than any Scottish wool. It is these qualities which give the products of the Shetland wool industry their distinctive character, which has always enabled them to command a high price in the market. The Report of the Crofter Woollen Industry Committee, set up by the Scottish Council for Industry and published in 1945, stressed the importance of developing the weaving industry in the Northern Isles because of its capacity to employ large numbers of men and in that way to counteract the prevailing tendency to emigration. It also stressed the need for a spinning mill
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  in Shetland, but doubted whether it would be a business proposition. Nevertheless, a mill has been established there, entirely by local initiative and resources, and that is a great tribute to private enterprise, I think—or, as I prefer to call it, free commercial enterprise—which is having such a hard struggle to exist in this country at present. One object of the mill was to provide wool for the hand weaving industry. This industry is carried on to a lesser extent in Orkney and in various parts of the Scottish mainland.
  There is not the slightest doubt it could be expanded, to the immense benefit of the Highlands and Islands, but unless the Government change their policy it is needless to look for expansion or, indeed, even to the survival of the industry, because at present it is moribund. In 1947 and 1948 there were many idle looms and many unemployed men, and that was due to the difficulties of getting yarn. The position gradually righted itself as supplies of yarn became more available and export permits became more easily obtainable, but another difficulty was already beginning at that time to manifest itself—a dwindling demand in the overseas market. So the industry has been forced since then to rely more and more on the home market for the disposal of its produce. Before long it became apparent that the rate of Purchase Tax, which at that time was 33⅓ per cent. but was raised to 50 per cent., was proving a very serious handicap to the industry, and having a very adverse effect on sales.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer chose that moment to deal the industry a death blow by raising the rate of Purchase Tax to 66⅔ per cent. in the Budget last year. I protested very strongly against it at the time, pointing out that it was nothing less than a death sentence to the industry. I am sorry to say my words have been proved to be only too true. In reply to me the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, who is not here I am sorry to say, said that the Government had shown themselves sympathetic to the producers by abolishing Purchase Tax on hand-knitted woollens, which at that time had been reduced through the operation of Purchase Tax to exactly the same state as that of the hand woven tweed industry today. We were grateful enough for that concession,

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  certainly; but it is very cold comfort to unemployed weavers to be told that knitters are able to earn a living, because that the weavers are an entirely different section of the community from the knitters. The Economic Secretary produced a number of other arguments which seemed to me equally unconvincing, and which were mostly based on questions of administrative convenience. He ended by using these words:
  "We do not believe that the effect of paying this tax would be to kill this industry, as some hon. Members have suggested, or anything approaching such a serious effect as that."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th June, 1948; Vol. 451, c. 1982.]
  To prove how wrong he was I shall quote some letters which I received during December, 1948, and in this month. They are not specially selected. They represent firms of various sizes, situated in various localities, and various types of organisation. Here is one firm in a large way of business which has in fact just completed the erection of what is a very large factory for Shetland for the production of tweed. In April, 1948, that firm sold 359 yards of Shetland tweed at £252 and by October, 1948, sales had shrunk to 35 yards valued at £21. Another firm, in a smaller way of business, state that 18 months ago when the Tax was one-third and even when it was raised to 50 per cent. they were still able to market tweed, but when it was raised to 66⅔ per cent. it killed the trade as dead as the dodo. That firm has now accumulated a stock of 1,500 yards of tweed plus a large supply of yarn and wool which, as they say, will never do anything now but feed the moths. That firm was employing ex-Service men, who were the first to get jobs after the war, and they are all now out of work.
  Another small firm, started in January, 1948, with three looms, has now been knocked completely out of business. They have been for some time making tweed for stock, but they cannot continue to pile up stocks for which it seems there is never to be any sale. They have done their best to sell their stocks. Another old established firm in Shetland states:
  "Fifty per cent. of our looms have been idle during the last six months through lack of orders. We have not received any orders for the home market during the last eight or nine months and only small orders for export."
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  This firm has a stock of approximately £1,800 worth of tweed mostly made for orders for the home market which was cancelled after the imposition of the 66⅔ per cent. Purchase Tax and they have got between £6,000 and £7,000 worth of raw wool and yarn lying idle. They said that they had sufficient work to keep one-third of their weavers going for two weeks, and then the mill would be closed down. That letter was written three weeks ago, and the mill is now closed. Another firm in Orkney sold 5,400 yards in April, and sales dropped to 180 yards in the month following the imposition of Purchase Tax. For the last eight months they have only sold a total of 180 yards.
  Finally, here is another kind of organization— the Shetland Crofters Weavers Limited—which is surely the kind of organisation which hon. Members opposite ought to encourage. They state:
  "Our establishment has been rendered almost bankrupt by this most unfortunate Tax. We had in operation last spring 30 fully trained weavers and with normal prospects the industry at that time invested in yarn supplies sufficient to maintain full production for nine months. Immediately after the imposition of the Tax our market started to fall and finally came to an abrupt stop."
  They continued to produce hoping to be able to carry on, but that is not now possible and they are now closed down completely.
  It seems to me that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury has been just as bad a prophet for the hand woven tweed industry as he was over the length of time that the American loan was going to last. I want to know what the Government are getting out of this nonsensical procedure. It gathers no Purchase Tax and will not get a penny of Income Tax from any branch of this industry during the curent year.
  The employed men have been driven on to unemployment benefit and the self-employed men have got nothing to look forward to but public assistance. If this goes on much longer the country will lose a lot of very good citizens, because these men are not prepared to sit down and twiddle their thumbs while right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench fiddle with the problem. We want something done about this. It makes nonsense of good Government if the Treasury is with one hand pouring out money for all sorts of excellent purposes.

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  such as education, roads and piers in that part of the country, and is with the other hand destroying the very basis of livelihood of these people.
  I asked the Secretary of State for Scotland to be present tonight because, although he is not directly responsible for the imposition of Purchase Tax, he is responsible for policy in the Highlands and Islands. I consider that, with the knowledge he had at his disposal in 1948 he ought to have taken the strongest possible action to prevent this folly being perpetrated by the Treasury. I can only hope, now I have pointed out to him the error of his ways, that he will use the whole weight of his influence to cause the Government to withdraw this oppressive and ruinous tax.
  10.27 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I rise to give general support to the request that the Treasury should reconsider this question of the level of Purchase Tax on handwoven tweed, and to give my general support to the remarks of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir B. Neven-Spence), with reservations. I have seen the Harris tweed industry in a much worse position than it is in today. I have seen the crofter producer driven down to the level of having to sell his Harris tweed to middlemen—who, presumably, would have the support of hon. Members opposite—at 1 s. 9d. and 2s. a yard—in other words, at a loss: the worst example of exploitation I have ever seen. We have not yet reached that level on this occasion, in spite of Purchase Tax.
  I am not for one minute supporting the application of Purchase Tax to this industry, because, as the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland has said, there was already a slackening of demand in the American market before the Purchase Tax level was increased; it was becoming increasingly difficult for the larger producer, with established contacts in the dollar area, to sell his product there and to get repeat orders for the coming years. When it is difficult for the established larger producer and the experienced importer in the industry to maintain orders on the other side of the Atlantic, how much more difficult is it for the newcomer, the smaller man without any of
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  these export facilities, experience or contacts to come afresh into that difficult market and try to sell in America or Canada. Their experience has been that it is quite impossible. No small crofter is able to make his contacts and establish himself today in the American or Canadian market; it is virtually impossible for them to do so; their experience teaches them that. They have tried, and some of the medium-sized producers have also tried.
  Let us consider the actual effect of the tax in the Western Isles, in the Harris tweed area. First of all, it has not in any way made new dollar markets in Canada, the United States or the South Americas. It has not helped in that way at all. It has not brought in any dollars to the Treasury or to this country. In the home market, which was the only market these smaller producers had experience of and had an outlet in, and in which there was any demand, the tax has throttled that demand, and the producers find themselves unable to sell in the home market without having the compensation of being able to sell in the dollar market. The result is that there are bales of tweed, finished articles, lying in the homes of the people there; the looms are idle and the people unemployed, without even the consolation of being registered as unemployed people and able to draw unemployment benefit; they are self-employed people and therefore outside the scope of unemployment insurance.
  I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have regard to the representations which I have made especially to him, and to the Chancellor, through the Press. personally by letter, and in every other possible way. I would remind him that the Highlands and Islands Advisory Bureau, the Government's own agency in that area, made a strong recommendation some months ago that they should reduce or abolish the tax on hand woven products if they were not to see the industry brought to a standstill altogether in that area. I appeal to them to reduce the tax, if they cannot abolish it altogether.
  10.30 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I think the hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir Basil Neven-Spence) rather overstated his case. This is a small industry. I understand that in the

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  Orkneys about 37 are employed and in the Shetlands about 114. Although it is a small industry, it is an important one to the people who live in that area and invest their lives in this industry. I am here tonight to say that the Government are sympathetic to the decline which has undoubtedly taken place in the hand-loom weaving industry in the Highlands and Islands, including the Hebrides, represented by my hon. Friend behind me.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Does the right hon. gentleman realise that there are some hand-loom weavers in other parts of Scotland besides the Highlands and Islands, for instance, in the city of Aberdeen and near Paisley? They would be entitled to just as much relief as the others.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I fully realise that and, if there had been time, I would have made reference to the fact, because it is part of the case I hope to deploy in the House tonight. The Government are sympathetic to the fact that there has been a decline in this industry. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, who sits beside me, and those associated with him have done all they can to encourage and foster the industry in Scotland.
  The Government does know something about this matter. The Board of Trade have sent representatives to the Highland and Islands to investigate this particular industry, to see exactly what the trouble was and what, if anything, the Government could do to assist the producers. That investigation took place as recently as two months ago. Therefore, we are not unacquainted with the facts of the situation.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman asserted that the decline in the industry in these two Islands—he speaks for them and not for Aberdeen—is entirely due to the incidence of the Purchase Tax. It is quite likely that the incidence of the Purchase Tax has had some effect on the sales that have taken place, but I am here to tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the decline is not strictly due to this cause. I am sorry to say that, whether the Purchase Tax were there or not, there would still have been a decline in the industry in that area.
  Mr. MacLeod: Why impose this further burden, then?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: It is due to a change in fashion. The production of woollens in the United Kingdom has reached. I will not say, saturation point, but a point at which it has greatly exceeded the production of worsteds. There is at present a great demand for worsteds. The export market for these goods—and this particular industry has gone into the export market where the Purchase Tax is not charged—has unfortunately declined. In America, three plants making woollens have had to close down during 1948 because of the contraction in demand, the change of fashion, and the desire of people not to take woollens but to take worsteds instead. Therefore, you have to take into account the fact that the decline in selling is largely due to the fact that people now are looking not to tweeds, but to worsteds—[An HON. MEMBER: "Not in the home market."] Oh, yes.
  It is rather difficult to know what the extent of the decline has been because, in these islands, the work is carried out in small units, mostly in homes and small factories. But what has become apparent to those who have made an investigation is, that those who came latest into the industry have suffered most; that is those who were in the industry before the war and not those who came into it later to take advantage of the boom in the early post-war years, when almost anything could be sold—and certainly good wool cloth of this kind could be sold, because it is, of its kind, perhaps, the finest in the world. But times are changing and we shall eventually reach a buyers' market.
  That being so, we get a decline in demand and those who came latest into the industry are the first to suffer. Many of them, in spite of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said, have turned to hand knitting. As the House knows the Government has done what it can to help those who go in for hand-knit weaving by taking Purchase Tax off their products.
  Sir B. Neven-Spence: Can the right hon. Gentleman give a single instance of a hand weaver who has turned over to hand knitting?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: My information is that many of them have had it as a second string to their bow. That is my

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  information. If I am wrong, I freely admit the error. But in any case, it does not affect the argument which I am putting forward. The hon. Member and others who interjected tonight say that, if we have recognised that there has been a contraction in the demand for the industry's goods, we should help it by making a Purchase Tax concession. The reasons were deployed by the Economic Secretary when we debated this matter on the Finance Bill some months ago. They are that, if a Purchase Tax concession were made to the hand-loom weaving industry in the Highlands and Islands, we could not stop there. We would have to make it to the people referred to by my hon. and learned Friend who sits for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes); we would have to make it to those people who make the same kind of cloth in other parts of Scotland, and to those who do similar weaving in various parts of England. We could not stop by confining the Purchase Tax concession to the people in one particular area.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the tax, as imposed, defeats itself by driving out of business the small hand-loom weaver? Cannot he discriminate between the small and the large weavers?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: No, we cannot discriminate; we should like to do so, but it is not possible. If we take off the tax for one individual, we must take it off for all those who make a similar article, wherever they live. People in, say, the Bristol area, and in the South of England, have the same rights as those who live in the North of Scotland.
  We are asked why we cannot take it off in the case of the small hand-loom weaver, and not in the case of the larger producer. The answer is that it is impossible to distinguish between their products; if it were always possible to distinguish between cloth woven on a hand loom and that woven on a machine, then our troubles would be over. But it is not possible. If it were, it is very likely that my right hon. and learned Friend the
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  Chancellor of the Exchequer could meet hon. Members on both sides of the House in the abolition of the Purchase Tax on this type of cloth. But it is not always possible to distinguish between a piece of cloth woven on a hand loom and a piece of cloth woven on a machine.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that the whole administrative history of Scotland is built up on the differentiation of the seven crofting counties?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Purchase Tax is levied on the cloth, not as it leaves the loom, but when it reaches the wholesale stage. When it reaches that stage, it will be a long way from the seven crofting counties, and an argument like that only discloses the ignorance of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman on this matter. Another reason—
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The right hon. Gentleman knows—
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows quite well that he is not entitled to speak unless the right hon. Gentleman in possession of the Floor gives way.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I am asking the right hon. Gentleman, who, if I might say so, made a rather boorish answer to a perfectly simple question, whether his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland who is sitting beside him, will bear out that statement that it is impossible to distinguish between the seven crofting counties in this and other respects?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: That was not—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Eighteen Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Lord Talbot de Malahide—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

LOSS OF THE "STAR ARIEL"
2.34 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Government whether they can make any statement regarding the recent unhappy loss of the Tudor aircraft, "Star Ariel."
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I much regret to inform the House that we must now presume the loss of the British South American Airways Corporation's Tudor IVB aircraft known as "Star Ariel," on a flight from Bermuda to Kingston, Jamaica, on the morning of Monday, January 17. The machine carried thirteen passengers and seven crew. Search for the aircraft is continuing, and the full air-sea rescue service, in which we are grateful for the full co-operation of the United States authorities, is in operation over the whole area. I am sure I am expressing the feelings of the whole House when I extend profound sympathy to the families of the passengers and crew of the aircraft, of whose survival I am afraid there can now be very little hope. A preliminary investigation has already begun, and a representative of the Chief Inspector of Accidents left for Bermuda yesterday. As a result of this tragic loss, the British South American Airways Corporation have decided that the Tudor IV shall be suspended from service, pending a special investigation of each individual Tudor IV aircraft. I am sure that they are taking the right course, and I am taking the necessary steps to see that all available resources are placed at their disposal.

COMMISSIONED NATIONAL SERVICE MEN
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
(The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they will now reconsider the ruling given in the House of Lords on October 28, 1948, to the effect that men called up under the National Service Act, 1948, for service in the Army would not, if granted commissions, be placed under any obligation, at the end of their full-time service, to accept the normal liabilities of volunteer officers of the Territorial Army.]
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, it has not been thought desirable to ask the National Service man who takes a commission during his whole-time service to undertake a higher liability for training during part-time service than is imposed on other ranks by the Act. The noble Lord's suggestion is, however, being further considered by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War, who will write to the noble Lord.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply, and not a little encouraged by the latter part. May I ask that, when the Secretary of State for War does reconsider it, he will bear in mind the statement made in another place on December 15 last, dealing with an almost exactly parallel case with regard to the Royal Navy? It was stated then that successful candidates for commissions in the Royal Navy will be required to join the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and to accept the normal liability of Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, without accepting the implications of the noble Lord's remarks. I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the noble Lord's observations. I hope he will not be unduly encouraged by my reply, though I hope, equally, that he will not be unduly discouraged by it.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
2.38 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON VISCOUNT SWINTON rose to call attention to the present situation in regard to Foreign Affairs; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am sure that all your Lordships will most sincerely regret the absence of the Leader of the Opposition from a Foreign Affairs debate in this House, and we all hope that the sea and sun of South Africa will combine to give him back the fullest health and vigour. Our thoughts turn naturally to another statesman. In a Foreign Affairs debate at this time, in any free Parliament in the world, the grateful good wishes of all members would go out to General George Marshall, who has just laid down the heavy burden which he carried from the earliest days of the war. It has been given to few, if any, men in history, over so wide a field and on so heroic a scale, to be both organiser of victory and architect of peace. May he be completely restored to health and may he long enjoy the leisure which he has so well earned!
I think we were wise, as events have proved, to postpone our Foreign Affairs debate until after the Recess. Not only did the delay give us the opportunity for a valuable debate upon Eire, but a great deal has happened in the meantime. There has been the overwhelming Communist advance in China; there have been the events in Indonesia; there has been the recrudescence of fighting in Palestine, with our unfortunate involvement; and there have been the negotiations in Rhodes and elsewhere which we all most sincerely hope and pray will lead to a final and lasting peace. We have had the new organisation in the Ruhr; the formal separation of the municipality in Berlin and developments in Yugoslavia, Greece, Hungary and elsewhere. All these matters will no doubt be raised in this debate, and I shall have some questions to put to the Government on some of them.
Before I come to detailed questions, I would like to put to your Lordships some general considerations on the basis of our foreign policy, and to examine the detailed questions in the light of what I conceive to be the broad objectives of our foreign policy. Just as in defence, it is essential to have an overall strategic plan, which determines not only the
28
tactics but all questions of man-power, supply, logistics and priorities, all of which must subserve the main strategic purpose, so in foreign affairs there must be an overall policy and objective to which local and tactical action must conform. I do not think anyone would challenge this rather obvious assertion. What, then, is our overall objective in foreign policy? I take it that, first and foremost, it is to prevent aggression and to preserve peace. To achieve this, our aim, on the negative side, must be to deter aggression and to counteract Communism as a subversive activity, for it runs counter to all our free way of life and seeks to prevent the recovery which is essential to peace and prosperity. On the positive side, our policy, I take it, is to build up individual and collective security, not only in defence but over the whole field of economic recovery.
It would be idle to pretend that to-day the world is not divided into two camps with completely opposite and conflicting ways of life. That does not mean that war is inevitable. We know that war as an instrument of political purpose is not only wicked but is not worth while. But even those who believe in force as a political instrument will not wage war unless they think it is worth while; and whether they ever think it worth while will depend upon the success of the defensive and foreign policy—the two must always go together—of ourselves and of all other countries who share our aims and ideals. In foreign policy I include economic policy. Just as in total war, war is waged not only by sea and air and land but by economic warfare and propaganda, so in the prevention of war all these elements must go together, part and parcel of the overall plan. Individual and collective security is not only security in armed defence; it is security in rebuilding the economic prosperity of a shattered world. Surely, then, our aim in defence, in foreign policy, in economics, must be to build up in mutual support the defensive and economic strength of all those countries whose freedom and life are threatened to-day, but who together can create and command such strength, defensive and economic, as will ensure their own Security and prosperity. And that collective security must embrace defensive security and economic security. To this, always and everywhere, our foreign

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policy should conform. If that policy issues in action, informed by those obvious and fundamental truths, then it will serve the overall objective. If it is floundering, or inconsistent with that objective, it will be wrong in the particular instance and injurious to the whole purpose.
I do not think anyone will challenge the considerations I have expressed up till now, and it is in the light of those considerations that I would examine the actions of His Majesty's Government in recent weeks. In a number of detailed instances, in Germany and elsewhere, we have at long last, with our associates, taken positive action independently of Russia. It may well be said that we have lost precious time and much money in delaying so long. There is force in that criticism; but even the critics can understand the desire to play for co-operation so long as the remotest chance of co-operation appeared to exist. It is neither profitable nor constructive to job backwards and to say at what moment the die for separate action should have been cast. But now it is clear that the world is in two camps; and the only chance of making the camp of freedom effective, and of obtaining a working arrangement—or rather a condition of affairs in which the other camp will respect us because of our strength and success—lies in the nations in our camp working together all along the line.
That leads me to this. In collective security, in defence, the position is clear. It is our policy to mobilise, in an effective system and organisation of collective security, all the free nations who are willing to join and who realise that it is only in that collective security that they can hope to find individual safety. And we must all have been greatly encouraged by the recent pronouncements by the President of the United States. Similarly, in the economic sphere, thanks to the generous and far-sighted provision of Marshall Aid, the British Commonwealth and Western Europe are combining in long-range plans of economic security. In all this we are facing facts with a sense of realism; in all this we are united nations, becoming more closely knit and more united. These indeed are the very things that over the whole world we hoped the United Nations Organisations would do.
But when we turn to the United Nations Organisation itself must we not feel a
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sense, not only of frustration but of futility and unreality? Is it really useful or practicable, or indeed possible, that with the world divided into two camps and with so many countries in the camp for freedom acting effectively together, we should seek to preserve a façade and camouflage of unity where no unity exists? May not such an attempt not only destroy the utility but endanger the very existence of the United Nations Organisation? Over and over again we have seen the veto employed to prevent the entry of one free country after another into the body where they are entitled to find a place. Time after time the work of the Security Council and other constituent bodies is frustrated
by representatives who are determined to make U.N.O. fail. Is it really sensible to attempt to draft a Declaration of the Rights of Man in collaboration with those who deny that men have any rights at all? We have reached the fantastic position that U.N.O. includes a number of Soviet satellite nations determined to make it fail, while Russia uses her veto to blackball the election of other countries who want to make it work. Has not the time come when this Organisation, with all its great potentialities for good will and co-operation, shall, as we always intended, be open to all those who hold the same faith and follow the same way of life, and he operated by them?
It may be said that this means that for the theory of the co-operation of all nations, for which we fought in war and have striven so hard to achieve in peace, we are driven to accept the reality that the nations who believe in peace and freedom shall form a real and active union, which will hold the balance of power. But is not that the actual situation to-day? And shall we not make the union more effective, and weight the scales of the balance of power more heavily on the side of peace, if we act as realists? The balance of power is not what we hoped for. But the balance of power has preserved the peace of the world for long periods in the past; and if the balance of power is wielded by many nations and Governments who have the will to peace and the power to preserve it, it may keep the peace of the world for many years, and by its strength and success bring more and more peoples into a real Union of Peace and Good Will. For my part, I cannot resist the conclusion that if we are

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to maintain the United Nations Organisation, as we all most passionately wish to do, we must devise means to enable it to do its job. I believe that that is necessary to preserve it in the present and to make it more powerful and, it may well be, universal in the future.
May I now say a few words about Germany? We have seen the establishment of the International Authority for the Ruhr. The negotiations for this have been going on for so long, and the differences of opinion at one time appeared so wide, that an agreement is very welcome. I think we can all understand, I will not say the French susceptibility but the very genuine anxieties, both on grounds of security and on grounds of economics, which the French Government and the French people held. But we have this agreement. I know there have been criticisms in Germany, but German criticism of the principle is unreasonable and misplaced. After two wars it was necessary and inevitable that there should be a sufficient control of the Ruhr to ensure that it could never again become an arsenal for war.
Now the Authority is established, how will it work? As I see it, a wise and practical International Authority should ensure that the production of the Ruhr will serve the best interests of Germany and other countries, and play its full part in European recovery. In control of this undertaking, as I see it, there are three essential conditions. The first is security. The Ruhr must be an arsenal for peace and not for war. The second condition is efficient production; the third is fair distribution. I think it is satisfactory that one of what I think are called the rules provides that there shall be no form of ownership which would constitute an excessive concentration of economic power. I imagine that this would not necessarily prevent the nationalisation of industry, if the Germans decided in favour of that and if the controlling Powers agreed. I do not want to embark here upon doctrinaire arguments about nationalisation or, perhaps what are more important, considerations of how to obtain the most efficient production and management. Confining my thought to those words "excessive concentration of economic power." however, I am bound to say that I have always thought that
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the nationalisation of the steel industry of the Ruhr was the surest way of concentrating economic power in a single unit which might be seized and misused by a totalitarian Government. Nor is nationalisation in the least necessary to secure a fair and effective distribution. Distribution can best be directed and controlled at the selling end.
But, looking at the plan as a whole, I think that those who framed it are to be congratulated. It is not only that they have reached a present agreement in difficult negotiations. Looking to the future, one sees that the interest of the Ruhr and its neighbours alike lies in close industrial working arrangements. That is the practical way to allay suspicions and to strengthen Western unity. I would like to ask the Under-Secretary of State whether he is able to tell us anything further about the Occupation Statute. Also, what will be the relations between the Ruhr Authority and the Military Security Board? Now one word about
Berlin. We have all been following with deep interest and intense admiration the achievements of the British and United States Air Forces. I say "British." Surely I should say "Commonwealth" Air Forces, because I rejoice to think that there are many Commonwealth pilots from other Commonwealth countries taking part in this great liberating measure, to which we all give our full support. Can the Government tell us any more about how the Municipality will function in Western Berlin?
Before I leave the subject of Europe, I would say one word about Hungary. The Christian world—indeed, the whole civilised world—has been shocked at the summary arrest in Hungary of Cardinal Mindszenty. He appears to have been guilty of two unforgivable offences. He has boldly testified his Christian faith and protested against the persecution of the priests who have followed his example. He has equally boldly testified his faith in democracy and protested against the suppression of the majority by a tyrannous and ruthless minority. I do not know whether the Government can tell us anything about the fate of this brave man.
I now turn to Palestine. We await with anxious interest any further information which the Government can give us about events in Palestine. If there are matters

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in regard to which the Government are open to criticism, that in no way palliates or excuses the attack which was made by Jewish airmen upon British aircraft. I want to deal with that episode. I will assume, as I think the Government have stated, that the British aircraft which were attacked were flying inside Egyptian territory—though how a pilot flying along an undefined frontier in the desert is to know for certain on which side of the frontier he is I find it difficult to understand, unless there are obvious landmarks—and very obvious landmarks—along his whole line of flight. I think, however, that a good deal of further explanation is required as to whether it was necessary or wise to send British aircraft on a reconnaissance along the Egyptian frontier at all; and certainly as to why, if such an expedition was to be sent, it was not sent in much greater force.
On the facts at our disposal, it appears to me that the right people to conduct reconnaissance, whether by land or by air in or adjoining the Negev and its frontier, were the United Nations. I know that the Jews had refused to allow the United Nations' observers access to that territory, but surely the right course in that event was for the representatives of His Majesty's Government on the Security Council to press that the Council itself should use its collective influence and insist upon the observers of U.N.O. exercising their rights. If we had been requested by the Security Council to undertake this reconnaissance, that would have been a very different matter. We should then have been acting as the agents of U.N.O., and the Jewish Government would have been notified to that effect.
I think it is important at this stage, too, that I should ask whether His Majesty's Government did in fact notify the Jewish authorities of their intention to make this reconnaissance. But, even if it be insisted that in the face of Jewish resistance to the directions of the United Nations it was desirable for the British Government to undertake the reconnaissance themselves, there can be no excuse for sending an inadequate force for this purpose. It was well known to His Majesty's Government that, again in breach of the United Nations' ruling, large reinforcements in aircraft and
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skilled airmen had been sent from Czechoslovakia to Palestine. It was equally well known, for His Majesty's Government had frequently complained about it, that Jewish forces had disregarded the United Nations' ruling, had recommenced hostilities in the Negev and had violated Egyptian territory. In those circumstances, if the Government were going to order the Royal Air Force to undertake a reconnaissance, not as agents of U.N.O. but on their own, then the Government ought surely to have directed that this operation should be conducted by a force of aircraft so strong as to deter any aggressive attack—or at any rate to ensure that if such an attack did take place it would be overwhelmingly defeated.
My Lords, let me, in support of this, give another argument which will I think be endorsed by experienced air officers. As I understand from statements that I have read, the pilots were instructed that they were not to fire unless they were attacked. I submit that that is really an impossible order to give to a pilot, unless he is supported by a very strong deterrent force. It is not like a battle at sea where, though the first salvo may be pretty serious, it is not necessarily fatal. Still less is it like an engagement on land, where one gun starts firing. With fast modern aircraft, air combat is a matter of seconds. The first burst of fire, accurately directed, is decisive, and there is no justification for subjecting our airmen to such a risk unless the circumstances are absolutely unavoidable.
At the request of the Transjordan Government, His Majesty's Government have now sent a force to Akaba. There can be no question that Akaba is outside the Negev and is part of the territory of Transjordan. I believe that in the past some claim was made by Saudi-Arabia, but it was not persisted in, and to-day it is universally accepted that Akaba is part and parcel of Transjordan. What is quite certain is that it is not part of Palestine! It may be that the Government were not only entitled but were virtually bound by treaty to send forces there. I am not challenging that. But in view of what has already taken place, I ask for this definite assurance: that the forces which have been sent are amply sufficient, not only to withstand aggression but to deter aggression.
Here again, what is the overall plan and objective to which action should conform? It must be to establish lasting peace between the Arabs and Jews. The war has inflicted grievous losses and suffering on both. Whatever immediate advantages the Jews may gain, without peace and the good will of the Arab countries the State of Israel will be artificial, and its situation uneconomic and precarious. The Jews have done a wonderful job in Palestine, not only in agriculture but also in building up an ingenious and varied industry. But apart from the domestic market, which can take only a fraction, the outlet for that industry must lie predominantly in the adjacent Arab countries. Every interest lies in peace and settlement, and it is indeed our most earnest hope that the present negotiations will succeed. I feel bound to add this: I think we should be in a better position to help, and to discharge out duties and our obligations to the Arab States, and to Transjordan in particular, if His Majesty's Government were represented at Tel-Aviv. The existence of a Jewish State is a fact, and de facto recognition is a logical and desirable recognition of that fact. Finally, of course, the greatest factor for peace, here as elsewhere in the world, is Anglo-American agreement.
I turn now to one other topic—namely, Indonesia. A stable and prosperous Indonesia is of supreme importance, both to the security of the Far East and to the economic recovery of the world. I do not think it is possible for us to form a clear judgment of events or of policy unless we have a true picture of the past and the present. It is not irrelevant, in appraising the attitude and action of the Netherlands Government to-day, to consider the Dutch record of administration in the East Indies before the war. They were able and humane administrators. The Dutch islands were productive, rich and prosperous. There was a vast production of fuel oil, tin, rubber, sugar, palm oil and other fats. The first two were produced by great undertakings: mineral oil by private enterprise; tin (if my memory serves me) by state enterprise or by a mixed company. In the other products, in addition to well-managed estates, there was an enormous native production. In the application of science to
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tropical agriculture the Dutch led the world, and their health services were a model. Thanks to those health services, and to the intensive development of native agriculture, Java was able to maintain a vast and a rapidly increasing population, which was well over 40,000,000 before the war. If in our Colonial Empire we have made more rapid advances in constitutional development, I could wish that we had kept pace with the Dutch in the measures they took for the health and sustenance of their people.
At this point I think it is convenient to deal with the legal position, which raises an important question of principle. Throughout the discussions at San Francisco the British delegation, which included the present Prime Minister, insisted that the United Nations should not be entitled to intervene in the administration or affairs of Colonial territories. While advocating the closest consultation between responsible Governments on Colonial affairs, and the fullest pooling of experience and ideas, the British Government consistently maintained the position that Colonial administration was a domestic matter and the responsibility of the parent State. This position was accepted, and the constitution of U.N.O. is framed on that basis. This principle is, for Great Britain and for all other States with Colonial possessions and responsibilities, one of cardinal importance.
There can be no question but that Indonesia and the Dutch East Indies are Dutch Colonial possessions and, therefore, under the United Nations system, the responsibility of the Dutch Government. I am, of course, aware that the Dutch Government accepted the assistance of a Good Offices Committee of U.N.O. to observe the situation, to advise the Dutch authorities, and to use their good offices to reach a satisfactory settlement; but I think I am right in saying that in doing so the Dutch Government maintained their constitutional and legal position as the responsible parent State. We are all entitled to form and express our own opinions as to Dutch action and policy; and, certainly, with our responsibilities in the adjacent territories of Malaya, we have a direct and particular interest. But we are also bound to bear well in mind that the Netherlands Government have the same responsibilities in

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Indonesia that the British Government have in Malaya.
Having said that, let me now try to give an unbiased appreciation of the facts as I understand them. After the war, on account of lack of Allied shipping, it was impossible for some months for the Dutch Government and troops to re-occupy the Dutch Indies in the way in which we reoccupied Malaya immediately after the Japanese defeat. This greatly increased their difficulties. When the Dutch Government were able to function, they showed their readiness to co-operate with Indonesians who had, or claimed to have, established some authority of governance in different parts of their territories. The Dutch Government also made it plain that their object was to establish a self-governing United States of Indonesia as a component part of a Netherlands Indonesian Union. The declaration made by Her Majesty, Queen Wilhelmina, and recently confirmed by the present Queen, is clear and explicit and bears the hall mark of sincerity.
Negotiations proved long and difficult, partly because the men with whom they were negotiating had only a limited authority to represent or hind those for whom they purported to speak and, I must add, partly because it was very doubtful whether some of these negotiators had the will to reach a settlement. It must not be forgotten that some of these men had been active collaborators with the Japanese, and remained so to the very end. According to a recent letter in The Times (which I believe is quite accurate) as late as August, 1945—a few weeks before the Japanese surrender—Soekarno and Hatta went to Saigon to receive the sanction of Indonesian independence from the hands of the retreating Japanese General. I may add that prior to that one of them had received the highest Japanese order for his successful broadcasting and also, I believe, for his organisation of slave labour in the interests of the Japanese. Even where agreements were reached, the Dutch Government allege—and allege, it would appear, with a good deal of truth—that these agreements were either broken or not implemented.
Meanwhile, in many parts of the country, the population was terrorised—a situation we can well understand from our own experiences in Malaya—and the
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people found it difficult to grow enough to eat, and were quite unable to produce or market anything for export. As might be expected in such a distressing situation, Communist activity was not absent; it was in its element. After eighteen months of frustration, the Dutch Government decided to act very much in the way in which we have acted in Malaya, and to restore law and order. In view alike of the events which preceded it and of the immediate and rapid success of the comparatively small Dutch force which was operating over vast areas, it is surely a misuse of language to call this "aggression." If we turn to the Dutch leaders, would anyone suggest that the Dutch Prime Minister, who is now in Java, is an aggressive Imperialist? Doctor Drees is, I understand, a moderate and humane leader of the Socialist Party in Holland. I am told by
admirers of our present Prime Minister, that, in these respects, he greatly resembles Mr. Attlee. Certainly no one would accuse either of them of aggressive Imperialism.
If the account I have given is true, or, to use an expression of Lord Balfour's, is in some near relation to the truth (and I do not think it will be seriously challenged in any responsible quarter) surely we must all do some fair and clear thinking. If this were an abstract proposition in which we ourselves were not deeply concerned, it would be only fair and right to form a just and informed opinion about Dutch action. But have not we and the other united free nations, who are striving to build up defensive and economic security in the world, in accordance with our overall plan, a very direct interest in this area? Communism is making rapid and overwhelming advances in China. This will give fresh encouragement to Communists in Burma and Indo-China. It is surely vital to our common interest and security that Indonesia should be peaceful and prosperous. The world is short of all the things which Indonesia produces. A peaceful and prosperous Indonesia will rapidly become again an arsenal of the free world's supplies of food and raw materials. Communism will fail, because the conditions will be restored in which Communism cannot flourish.
And if this be the need of the world, is it not also the need and the wish of tens of millions of Indonesians who, as

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recent events have proved, must be longing for the restoration of those physical conditions in which they can live and prosper free from want and free from fear? Without law and order—in other words without security—the self-government which the Netherlands Government have promised to Indonesia—and which, I am sure, it is their sincere aim to achieve—can never come into real being, much less succeed. Someone said to me just now: "What is self-government?" In the first instance, it implies government, and the first element of government is the preservation of law and order. When Communism attacks in these countries it attacks not only the preservation of law and order but the preservation of life itself; and in our pursuit of peace surely our aim must be to resist the spread of Communism. As has been said so often and so truly, Communism thrives on disorder and want, and exploits those conditions wherever it can. To counter this, the prerequisite in any country is a Government stable enough to maintain law and order and to guarantee freedom, a Government concentrated on building up the economic life and prosperity of the people. That is the first prerequisite. The second is the free association of such Governments and States in the collective defence of their common purpose and way of life. I beg to move for Papers.
3.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, in previous debates in your Lordships' House on Foreign Affairs I have continually pressed that foreign affairs should, if possible, be taken out of the sphere of Party politics and become national. I received rather sympathetic replies and I thought I was making headway, but frankly I was distressed by a remark made on one occasion by the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack. I do not think I am misinterpreting him; I have not been able to verify the exact reference, but his remark made a very deep impression on my mind at the time. It was to this effect: "I am all in favour of a non-Party foreign policy, provided that implies following Mr. Bevin's policy." That remark I do not understand. It is evident that if we are to have a non-Party foreign policy the representatives of the Government must be prepared to
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consult with the leaders of other political Parties in important international emergencies, though, of course, the final decision and the final responsibility must always rest with His Majesty's Government. I doubt whether such consultations in fact have taken place. If they had, and if the advice which
would have been tendered had been even partly accepted, I do not think we should have found ourselves to-day confronted with the great difficulties which are facing us in Palestine and the Middle East. The noble Viscount who introduced this Motion dealt with that problem rather shortly and I propose later to follow his example.
The last debate on Foreign Affairs which took place in your Lordships' House was in September last year. It was introduced by the noble Marquess who leads the Opposition, about whom I would like to say that we much regret his absence and we hope that after his visit abroad he will come back here with renewed vitality and vigour. In opening that debate, the noble Marquess referred to the marked deterioration in the international situation which had taken place since July. I fear that that deterioration has continued. Certainly there has been no diminution in the tension between East and West. There are, however, two bright spots. The first is the increasing co-operation between the countries of Western Europe, particularly on the economic side, due very largely to the vision of Mr. Marshall. I would associate myself warmly with the tribute which the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has paid to him. Also there has been progress in the political and defence fields in Western Europe, though at present that progress is confined to France, Britain and the Benelux countries. I trust that the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, when he replies for the Government, will make it quite clear that our Foreign Secretary is as anxious as the Foreign Secretaries of other countries affected to promote the main objects of the European Movement. If he can do so, he will dissipate the fears of many of us who feel that His Majesty's Government are inclined to be over-cautious and, perhaps, have not this matter sufficiently at heart. I do not criticise them in any way for wanting adequate time for consultation. The question is far too important to be rushed and, of course, there must be consultation

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with other members of the Commonwealth; but I hope there will be no procrastination and that the need for speed will be realised.
The second bright spot is the negotiations which are proceeding about the North Atlantic Pact. To my mind, the conclusion of such a Pact would be the greatest event that has happened in our international policy for many decades. Many of the great statesmen of the past—I have particularly in mind Lord Grey and Lord Balfour—would have rejoiced to see these aspirations, which I know they cherished, fulfilled. I am sure your Lordships would wish in this connection to pay a tribute to Mr. St. Laurent, the successor of Mr. Mackenzie King, to whom this country also owes a deep debt of gratitude. Mr. St. Laurent was the first responsible statesman publicly to sponsor the idea of a North Atlantic Pact. We hope that his vision will be realised and that his efforts will be crowned with success. I would add that if this Pact is concluded while Mr. Bevin is Foreign Secretary, any errors he may have made in other fields of foreign policy will be forgotten and forgiven. But even if this Pact does materialise, and I earnestly pray that it may, I believe that there are further steps which can be taken. I think we should conclude a pact to arrange for the participation in the general scheme of such countries as Australia and New Zealand, and possibly others. Thus we would have a series of pacts linked to each other, in all of which Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations would play a prominent part, as it already does in the Western Five-Power Agreement. We would have a real provision for collective self-defence in accordance with that Article. Above all, a potential aggressor would be confronted with a formidable mass of countries formally bound and determined to come to each other's aid should any one of them be attacked. All these arrangements would be in accordance with the Chatter of the United Nations.
I pass to the question of the Ruhr. In his speech in another place on December 9 last year, Mr. Bevin announced that after much reflection he held that international ownership of the Ruhr industries would lead to endless friction, would depress production, would make German co-operation and European re-
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construction difficult, if not impossible, and would not bring peace. He therefore relied on the trusteeship agreement and on the control of production by an international
authority, on which, of course, Germany would be represented. I doubt whether the solution put forward by the Foreign Secretary is as satisfactory as international ownership. I think that the solution he has put forward is bound to make for great and, indeed, ever-increasing friction. It means German ownership and international control. At this point, I should like to make two quotations from speeches made in another place on November 15 and 16, during the Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill by the Minister of Supply and the Chancellor of the Exchequer respectively.
The Minister of Supply, arguing against simple control of the industry, as opposed to Government ownership, said:
"The industry and individual producers can be told what not to do, but in most matters not what they must do. This means that while any proposals put up to us for the industry can be vetoed neither the Board nor the Minister has effective power to ensure that other proposals, however desirable they may be, will be initiated, let alone carried out, if the industries of the individuals concerned do not like them. The situation is unavoidable where control and ownership are in separate hands. No controller can ever order an owner to spend money he does not want to spend."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
"It is essential for our defence that the State should own a large part of the steel-making resources of the country so that the defence position is always safeguarded. The last word must come from the owners. No one can force them into a policy which may entail a large expenditure of their own resources. It would become necessary to relax Government controls of all kinds, thereby risking the national policy, or else to take over the ownership of the industry."
I do not consider that those arguments are applicable to ownership here, because our steel owners are patriotic people, ready to accept Government control and anxious to promote the welfare of the country as a whole, but I feel that the reasoning of those two Ministers may be highly pertinent if the ownership of the Ruhr industry remains in German hands and the control is international. As I see it, such an arrangement is bound to lead to increasing friction, since it will be the object of the German owners (and this is particularly true if the owners are the German State)

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to rid themselves of international control at the earliest possible moment; there will be great pressure from the German side to relax, and, as I say, ultimately to get rid of, the control. I agree that it is essential that Germany should co-operate in European reconstruction, but international ownership, either by or through a Union of Western Powers, of which Germany would of course be one, might lead, if successful, to an extension of such a system, and thus forward European economic unity, while satisfying the natural national aspirations and feelings of the German people.
As the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, pointed out, the German people must remember that it was largely because of the resources of the Ruhr that their leaders were able to unleash on an unprepared world two wars of aggression, and that the countries then attacked must take every precaution for the future, and are right to do so. In view of what I have said, I hope that the Foreign Secretary may at least reconsider the problem and the question of international ownership. Incidentally, I feel that the situation in Germany requires careful watching. I see signs of a distinct revival of certain militaristic and nationalistic feelings. The demonstration about the destruction of the torpedo factory at Eckernförde and what happened at Bochum are symptoms which I do not think we ought to ignore. I am glad that our military authorities have not yielded to them, and have given no sign of appeasement.
We were all happy over Mr. Schuman's visit to this country and the success which he has apparently achieved. I fear, however, that sometimes we have too little imagination in our dealings with France. We make announcements which are bound to upset French public opinion, and then later we try partly to rectify the harm done. The timing of the announcement of the military authorities as to the future ownership of the Ruhr industry is a good example of the kind of thing I have in mind. I have often heard more or less responsible people say: "It is impossible to work with the French; they think only about themselves." On the other hand, I have heard it said on the French side: "The English are quite intolerable; they are so selfish
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and bound up with their own interests." There may be a grain of truth in both those statements, but we must try to do everything we can to avoid measures which may give rise to them. After all, the two countries must work together as closely as possible. The success of Western European recovery and of Western union depends mainly upon France and ourselves. The two countries are linked together by ties which I hope will be even closer in future than they have been in the past.
I feel, also, that we show the same lack of imagination occasionally in our dealings with Italy. The Foreign Secretary, in the lengthy speech which he made on foreign affairs, devoted only two sentences to Italy. That is a poor recognition of the efforts which Count Sforza and Signor de Gasperi are making for closer co-operation with the West. However, here again I trust that the recent visit of the Parliamentary delegation to Italy may have cleared away a good many misunderstandings, and may have helped us to retrieve some ground which we had lost.
I now turn for a moment to Palestine and the Middle East. I do not think anything that I shall say can possibly affect the negotiations now going on in Rhodes or elsewhere. I only trust they may succeed and lead ultimately to a durable settlement of this most difficult and troublesome problem. I suppose that when we first heard of the shooting down of five British airplanes by Jewish fighter machines or anti-aircraft we were highly indignant with the Jewish military and civil authorities. As the story gradually unfolded, however—and I agree we have nothing more to go on at the moment than Press reports—my own indignation, while not in any way condoning the Jewish action, turned very largely against the policy of His Majesty's Government. I have failed completely to understand their policy in the past. I am not going to press the point for the moment, in view of the appeal made by the Foreign Secretary in another place, and also in view of the fact that I believe that policy is now changing for the better.
However, I feel bound to point out that His Majesty's Government have declared their support of the Bernadotte plan. The main point of the Bernadotte Report was

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the existence and consolidation of a Jewish State. It is true, as the Lord Chancellor pointed out, that that Report does not involve recognition. But, with all due respect to him, I do not think that in his speech on September 24 he made a sufficient distinction between de jure and de facto recognition. I agree that de jure recognition requires the existence of definite boundaries of the State in question, but when we come to de facto recognition, surely it is the recognising State which can lay down territorial limits of such recognition. The Jews are in undisputed possession of certain territories in Palestine, and having supported the Bernadotte plan we surely should have accorded de facto recognition. Apart from all other considerations, it is in our own interests to do so. We must wish to be friends with the new State of Israeli. The trend of our policy up to now seems to have alieniated our Jewish sympathisers in Palestine—and there are numbers of them—and has given encouragement to those extreme Zionist elements which are hostile to the West, and whose great desire would be to see a rift between ourselves and the United States of America. That we must prevent at all costs, or else all we stand for in the world will be in danger.
I therefore urge the Government—and here I speak, I know, for the vast majority of Liberals—to accord as quickly as may be de facto recognition to the Israelite State. If the Government had done so at an earlier stage, I believe that these most regrettable incidents might have been avoided altogether. I do not in any way blame the Government for sending troops to Akaba. I have no doubt that, having regard to our Treaty obligations and certain violent Zionist propaganda, they were right to do so. But I cannot but condemn the policy they have adopted up to now towards the Palestine problem. Frankly, I think it has been stupid, and stupidity is a rave sin in international affairs.
Before I come to my final subject, I trust your Lordships will allow me to say a word about Austria. We do not hear much about what is happening in that country, but I think we ought to pay a tribute to its inhabitants. In very difficult circumstances, they are doing their utmost for its rehabilitation. I only hope that when the new negotiations begin—
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and it is a triumph for the Austrian Government that they have persuaded the great Powers to undertake them—at long last an agreed Treaty will emerge, and that Austria will again be independent and free to work out her own destiny.
In a debate on international affairs, obviously one cannot hope to deal even cursorily with all that is happening in the world; one must pick out certain important aspects. I therefore leave on one side Greece and China, and I will not follow the noble Viscount in his able exposition about Indonesia. In Kashmir there are signs of a happy settlement, through the good offices of U.N.O. I even leave on one side Berlin. They are all matters which one has not time to deal with. But I should be failing in my duty if, before I sat down, I did not mention the grave persecution which members of the Church to which I have the privilege to belong are undergoing in many Eastern European countries. The arrest on charges of treason of Cardinal Mindszenty—to which the noble Viscount referred—is the latest and most serious outrage. Do any of your Lordships believe the story of the tin box containing incriminating documents, alleged to have been found in the cellars of the Cardinal's house? I think the official Hungarian radio rather over-reached itself on that point. There is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Roman Catholic Church in those countries. In Roumania every kind of pressure, economic and political, is exercised to force the adherents of the Uniate body to apostatise. In Yugoslavia and in Czechoslovakia the campaign is raging; it has now been extended to Hungary and is also beginning in Poland.
The reason is quite clear. It is not, as a commentator in the New Statesman recently suggested, an endeavour "to take the Church out of politics." I do not quite know what that slogan means. It seems to me that you might just as well talk of taking religion out of living. It is a deliberate attempt to destroy the church because the Catholics in those countries have been and are the hard core of the resistance to Communism, and, therefore, in the view of the Communist Governments, they must be wiped out. The Cardinal and others are fighting for the respect of the human individual and of human rights—for the Four Freedoms upon which President

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Roosevelt laid so much stress. The Governments of the countries I have mentioned are, by this persecution, violating the preamble of the Charter of the United Nations, and are completely ignoring the Declaration of Human Rights so recently adopted in Paris. We must not be misled by false propaganda. The real issue is plain: Communism and Christianity are utterly opposed—they cannot exist together—and they have come to grips in those countries.
I would like to take this opportunity of expressing our gratitude to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury for the sympathy which he has extended on behalf of the Anglican Church in the trials which Roman Catholics are undergoing in Eastern Europe. I feel sure that His Majesty's Government will do all that lies in their power to prevent or moderate persecution—I fear it may not be much—and to assist its courageous victims. Many of them, alas, are dead; but they have died for Freedom.
3.49 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, I would like to associate Members sitting on these Benches with the expressions of regret at the absence of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. It is our hope, too, that he may soon be back with us restored to good health. I would also like to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, on his speech. If I may say so, as a very humble Parliamentarian, it was an excellent and helpful speech. We all know that the noble Viscount is an experienced Parliamentarian, and I am coming to the conclusion that there is no limit to the subjects upon which he can speak with great knowledge and authority. I would like to add that I found myself in a good deal of agreement with much of what he said. The two speeches to which we have just listened have directed our attention to some of the serious problems and developments in the present international situation. We are living in an uneasy and troubled world. There are many difficulties and discords, many areas afflicted by disturbance and violence, and great masses of the human family still suffering from the
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four fears which all nations are pledged to remove. It is obvious, therefore, that it will not be possible for me to deal with all the major issues which call for consideration. Even so, I have a great deal of ground to cover and I apologise in advance to the House if I take a little more time than I usually do.
Noble Lords will not, I hope, expect me, in view of what was agreed and the reasons for the agreement in another place yesterday, to deal with Palestine and the Middle East. This House will, I felt sure, be no less responsive to the Foreign Secretary's advice that we can best contribute to the successful outcome of the delicate negotiations at Rhodes by postponing discussion for a time. I am happy to say that the first reports we have received of these negotiations, and of tendencies elsewhere, indicate that hopeful progress is being made. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, referred to the circumstances in which five R.A.F. aircraft were shot down near the Egyptian Palestine frontier on January 7. I will, with the permission of the House, read the text of a factual statement which has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air. The statement is as follows:
"Towards the end of December, reports were received that Jewish forces had crossed the Egyptian frontier. It was clear that this raised serious questions for us, in view of our Treaty obligations and our vital interests in the Middle East. As United Nations observers were prevented by the Jewish
authorities from moving to the front, it was essential to obtain independent confirmation of the fact and extent of Jewish incursion into Egypt. As there were no other means of obtaining accurate information, R.A.F. aircraft were, therefore, sent on reconnaissance flights. On the first two reconnaissances made on December 30, Egyptian aircraft accompanied R.A.F. aircraft but did not take part in subsequent reconnaissances. All the flights took place with the knowledge of the Egyptian authorities. The decision to send these reconnaissance flights was taken on His Majesty's Government's responsibility, but in addition, in conversations which His Majesty's Ambassador in Washington had with the American State Department at the end of the year, the urgent need for precise information on this subject was clear to both sides. The information obtained by these reconnaissances was made available to the United States Government, who were aware of the means by which the information was obtained.
The reconnaissance on December 30 established that Jewish forces had reached the area of Abu Aweigla, which is approximately

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seventeen miles inside Egyptian territory. This was confirmed by reconnaissances on the 1st, 2nd and 4th. A further reconnaissance on the 6th revealed fresh incursion in strength into Egyptian territory. Consequently, on the morning of the 7th a tactical reconnaissance of four Spitfires was ordered. The timing of the reconnaissance was chosen in consultation with the Egyptian Air Force to minimise the risk of encounter with Egyptian aircraft. Four aircraft were briefed, two for reconnaissance, two for cover, and were given the following orders: The Palestine-Egyptian frontier not to be crossed; aircraft not to make hostile approach or fire on any other aircraft unless our aircraft were being attacked; the time over area where land operations were progressing to be limited to the minimum to lessen risk of incident; known anti-aircraft positions were given. Simultaneously, a high photographic reconnaissance by one Mosquito escorted by four Tempests was ordered, with the same briefing as for the tactical reconnaissance.
The tactical reconnaissance was executed as ordered. Tactics were to fly at best height to minimise risk of ground fire, but flying lower as necessary for identification. The leader of the formation (Flying Officer Cooper) reports that after turning west from the reconnaissance along the Rafah-El Auja road, he felt his aircraft being hit and saw his number two (Pilot II Close) climb up steeply and bale out from his aircraft which was on fire. He saw him land safely at a position ten miles inside Egyptian territory. After this, the leader
himself was attacked by aircraft of the Spitfire type with red spinners similar to those of his own squadron. After a turning engagement, in which the Jewish aircraft had the advantage of height, he was wounded and his aircraft hit. He continued to climb to 9,000 feet when, his aircraft being uncontrollable, he baled out, landing in a position over fifteen miles west of the frontier. This pilot's statement is confirmed by the finding and identification by an R.A.F. search party of parts of all four British Spitfires within a three-mile radius of a point thirteen miles west of the frontier. As far as can be judged, pending full investigation by a Court of Inquiry, it appears that Jewish aircraft dived on the top pair, shooting them down at once. One of the lower pair was shot down by ground fire and the other damaged by ground fire, and subsequently attacked by fighters.
All the evidence is that this formation did not cross the frontier and that the pilots were captured by Jewish troops some ten miles inside Egypt. Moreover, there are landmarks, such as the loop of the El Auja-Rafah Road and the road itself, a road block south of Rafah and Rafah itself, all in Egyptian territory. The high photographic reconnaissance was executed without incident.
In the afternoon, a further tactical reconnaissance of four Spitfires was ordered to carry out the same reconnaissance as in the morning, and to look out for crashed aircraft on the outward and homeward routes in search of the Spitfires missing from the morning sortie. In view of the possibility that the fate of the missing aircraft might
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have been due to hostile action by Jewish aircraft over Egyptian territory, two formations of Tempests were ordered to provide cover for the Spitfires at 6,000 and 10,000 feet respectively. When turning west over Rafah railway station the leader saw five aircraft diving steeply on to his Section. As a result of this, the leader at once ordered his section to break to starboard and keep turning. In this initial attack, one Tempest was shot down and finally crashed on the Palestine side of the border. We now knew that the pilot was killed. Three other Tempests were hit and slightly damaged. The top cover, seeing aircraft diving on to the lower Tempest formation, chased the attacking aircraft, having left one section to remain as cover. The hostile aircraft flew back over the border where our aircraft could not follow.
As I have said, in all these incidents R.A.F. aircraft were instructed not to cross the frontier and not to make a hostile approach or open fire on any other aircraft unless it was quite certain that our aircraft were being attacked. These instructions were given to minimise as far as possible the risk of a clash. In the event, these instructions placed our pilots at a grave disadvantage when aircraft, which had obtained a tactically superior position, made an unprovoked and surprise attack on them. The risks were fully appreciated by the Air Commander-in-Chief, but in view of the fact that air reconnaissance was the only means available of ascertaining quickly the true facts regarding the incursion into Egyptian territory, I consider he was justified. In these operations the lives of two R.A.F. pilots were lost. Two pilots are in the hands of the Jewish authorities but we hope that they will shortly be repatriated.
Our squadrons have carried out a difficult task, calling for accurate flying and good discipline. The results of their reconnaissances, now confirmed from other sources, show that they fully achieved what was asked of them. I am sure the House would wish me to express their sympathy with the next-of-kin of the two officers who lost their lives."
I will now deal briefly with China. Noble Lords will be aware, from references which have recently been made in another place, that His Majesty's Government are very carefully watching developments in China. Peking is the only major city in the area still in Nationalist hands, but it is closely invested. The great
industrial city of Tientsin was occupied by the Communists on January 15. From reports so far received, I am happy to state that there have been no British casualties nor, on my present information, has British property suffered appreciable damage. His Majesty's Government cannot be indifferent to the fate either of our nationals or of our extensive business interests in China. Our Embassy at Nanking and the Consulates elsewhere are accordingly remaining at their posts.

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British subjects, too, who have business interests to defend have in general elected to remain. The steadfastness with which these communities, and our diplomatic and consular staffs, are facing the dangers and difficulties of the situation are worthy of the highest British traditions. His Majesty's Government expect both parties to the struggle to respect British lives and British property.
As this House will be aware, the policy towards China which is being
consistently pursued by His Majesty's Government is in accordance with the understanding embodied in the Moscow Declaration of December, 1945. In this, the United Kingdom, the United States and the Soviet Union declared a policy of nonintervention in the internal affairs of China. Our financial and economic position has precluded us from doing anything very material for China in the post-war years. On January 8, the Chinese Government approached His Majesty's Government expressing their desire that hostilities should be brought to an end. They invited an expression of views as to the method of doing so, and signified their readiness to initiate negotiations with the Communists through the possible intermediary of His Majesty's Government.
His Majesty's Government examined this approach with every sympathy, but reached the conclusion that their intervention in the struggle at this stage, besides being contrary to the Moscow Declaration, would only confuse the issue. His Majesty's Government therefore regretfully decided to decline to intervene. I should nevertheless like to repeat the assurance already given in another place that, if peace is restored in China and reconstruction initiated, we shall do our best to assist in whatever way we can. I feel sure that I shall be voicing the opinion of this House when I express the hope that peace may soon be restored to the patient and long-suffering Chinese people who for over forty years have been exposed to all the horrors of revolution, war and civil war. As regards Hong Kong, noble Lords will no doubt have taken note of the statements made in another place on July 7 last year, to the effect that no change is contemplated in the status of Hong Kong as a Crown Colony, and on December 10
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to the effect that His Majesty's Government appreciate the importance and value of Hong Kong and intend to maintain their position there.
I now turn to Indonesia. I do not intend to deal with some of the particular points raised by the noble Viscount. Especially do I desire to avoid becoming involved in issues of legal disputation, but I hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will deal with some of these points at the end of the debate. Noble Lords will recall that on December 18 the Dutch resumed police action in Java and Sumatra against the Republicans, after notifying the United Nations Committee of Good Offices that they considered that the truce, which came into force on the signature of the Renville Agreement in January, 1948, was at an end, in view of the repeated infiltrations behind the Dutch lines and violations of the truce by the Republican Armed Forces. His Majesty's Government greatly deplore the fact that the Dutch felt it necessary to resort once more to force, and cannot but feel that the possibilities of a settlement by negotiation through the Good Offices Committee had not been exhausted, in spite of previous failures.
His Majesty's Government had gone to great lengths to counsel patience and moderation on both sides and, as a member of the Security Council, had followed with the keenest interest the course of negotiations between the parties through the Committee of Good Offices, though we ourselves were not represented on the Committee. We had hoped that these negotiations would bear fruit and lead to a peaceful settlement in which the Nationalist aspirations of the Republic, on the one hand, would be honourably satisfied, and the legitimate interests of the Netherlands, on the other, adequately safeguarded. These two main objectives could, we consider, have still been achieved without a resort to force, however great the provocation. The situation in Indonesia to-day resulting from the action of the Netherlands is still confused, and we must await the reports of the United Nations observers on the spot in order to be able to assess the position correctly. We certainly desire, however, as a prerequisite for the establishment of an interim Government, the full release of the Republican leaders from their present confinement, so that they may be allowed

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to negotiate freely with the Dutch and non-Republican Indonesians for the establishment of the interim Government. Sir Alexander Cadogan's speech in the Security Council on Januarys 14 left no doubt of our attitude over the release of the Republic leaders.
As to the future, it does seem that the only way in which a lasting settlement can be achieved is for the Netherlands to carry out the programme outlined in recent speeches by their Prime Minister and, subsequently, by the Queen of the Netherlands. The representative of the Netherlands at the Security Council in New York declared on January 14 that a Federal interim Government will be set up in Indonesia within one month; that elections will be held throughout Indonesia before October next—
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Who said this?
LORD HENDERSON: The Dutch representative at the Security Council in New York on January 14. He said that elections will be held throughout Indonesia before October next, and full facilities provided to observers to supervise these elections if desired, and to watch events generally. Finally, he said that the United States of Indonesia is to be set up if possible by January 1, 1950, but that in any case the transfer of sovereignty will be accomplished in the course of 1950. His Majesty's Government welcome this declaration as showing the intention of the Netherlands authorities to implement the undertakings of their Government. It is to be hoped that by these means peace will be restored and the way paved for a just and lasting settlement which will contribute to the stability and prosperity of South-East Asia and of the whole world.
My Lords, I will now return to the subject of Europe, so that I may deal with some of the problems nearer home. With the beginning of the New Year I should very much have liked to be able to announce an improvement in our relations with the Soviet Union with regard to Germany. Unfortunately this is not within my power, since it would not be truthful to say that the Soviet authorities in Germany have shown any signs of greater willingness to co-operate with us in building up a peaceful and united Germany. The blockade of Berlin continues, but so also does the Anglo-American air lift, and
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it will go on. For over 200 days this remarkable combined operation has been maintained in good weather and in bad, supplying the physical needs and helping to sustain the moral resistance of the Berliners. German appreciation of this vital operation is wholehearted in its admiration; and we ourselves recognise that the greatest possible credit is due to the airmen of both countries for their splendid work.
As the House knows, one of the great difficulties is the question of the currency for Berlin. The Committee of Experts which was set up in December by Señor Bramuglia has produced a study of the whole problem. This study has
been examined by experts of the Occupying Powers and certain technical comments have been made upon it by them. This question is highly complicated, since any scheme for a common currency in Berlin must fit in with the actual conditions in that city. These conditions are far from what they should be. In recent months the Soviet Government have introduced a number of measures, in addition to the blockade, which have virtually split the city into two halves. Perhaps the most serious of these was the establishment in the Soviet sector of a puppet Magistrat drawn from the Socialist Unity Party and other Communist-dominated Parties. The Soviet authorities took this step after having refused to allow free elections to be held on a city-wide basis according to the provisional Berlin constitution. The elections, as the House will remember, were held in the Western sectors and resulted in an overwhelming Communist defeat.
In spite of all the provocation which the Western Allies have received in this and other ways, they have refrained to the utmost from taking steps which would further accentuate the division of Berlin and make the resumption of a common policy between the four Occupying Powers more difficult. For instance, when the three Western Commandants resumed their meetings in the Western sectors, they made it clear that it was open for the Soviet Commandant to come in again at any time. In short, in our relations with the Soviet authorities in Germany we are determined to adhere firmly to the policy which we believe is right, but at the same time to take advantage of any signs of readiness to co-operate which the Soviet authorities may make.

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My Lords, I am sure the House will have seen with satisfaction that the recent visit of M. Schuman to discuss a number of important matters with the Foreign Secretary was a great success. In no field was this more the case than as regards Germany. The two Foreign Ministers saw eye to eye on the question of Germany, and in particular there was complete agreement between them as to the general policy to be pursued in Germany and in Berlin. As to our policy in Germany as a whole, I wish to make clear in a few words what it is. The aim of His Majesty's Government is to ensure that Germany cannot again become a menace to the peace of the world through a revival of militaristic and aggressive power. Subject to this, their object is by progressive steps to bring back Germany as soon as possible into the comity of Western nations, with all that that implies, and on an equal basis. His Majesty's Government have already, in conjunction with their Allies, associated Germany through the European Recovery Programme with the economic reconstruction of Europe. As soon as a West German Government is formed it will be possible to make this association closer on the political side. We plan to set up a representative democratic Government in Germany operating within the limits of an Occupation Statute and in accordance with a Provisional Constitution or Basic Law.
We recognise that this close association with Western Europe is what the overwhelming majority of Germans want, and we are anxious to give effect to it as soon as possible. Nevertheless the past cannot be erased at a stroke, and the process must take time. We are convinced that we shall best achieve our object if we proceed steadily in both the economic and political fields and if we keep in step with the other Western Allies. It is not our policy to keep Germany in a position of permanent inferiority. Provision must be made for security, but this will not prevent Germany playing her part—and a very valuable part, too—in the reconstruction of Europe on peaceful and democratic lines.
It is in connection with this policy that I should like to refer to four important documents. The purpose of these documents is to define the large extension of
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liberty of action which it is proposed to give to German representative authorities and, as an essential preliminary, to define those controls which the Occupying Powers consider it necessary to retain. In the first of these documents, the agreement for the setting up of a Military Security Board, the element of control predominates. The establishment of this Board was agreed upon at the London talks last year, and its purpose is to stop at its source any renewed danger of German aggression. The Board will have inspectors working throughout Western Germany in pursuance of its duty to prevent the infringement of the prohibitions and restrictions which are imposed on warlike industries; it will be closely linked to the Ruhr Authority and will have powers of supervision over scientific research.
In the second document, that in which the Ruhr Authority is set up, the element of control is likewise important, since the Authority is a security organisation in the sense that its existence is intended to render it impossible for the basic industries of the Ruhr to form the basis of a new aggression on the part of Germany. But it is not solely or even mainly a security organisation. It is intended to facilitate economic co-operation and economic recovery by two means: first, by setting at rest the legitimate fears of Germany's neighbours lest the tremendous sources of the Ruhr should be misapplied, and, secondly, by providing for an equitable distribution of Ruhr coal, coke and steel. I stress the word "equitable" because certain German critics have alleged that the Authority is an attempt to stifle German competition. The agreement itself specifically excludes such a possibility, and on this point I should like to emphasise that His Majesty's Government will in no circumstances lend themselves to such a distortion of the functions of the Authority. There is nothing in the Ruhr Statute in its present form which is incompatible with German economic recovery.
As to future development, the time may come when we shall wish to consider with our friends and with the Germans whether some wider organisation of the resources of Western Europe could not be established of which the Ruhr Authority might be only a part. The German people and the German Government, when formed, can hasten that day by their

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own efforts, by lending their co-operation to the Ruhr Authority in its present form, and by demonstrating the sincerity of their desire to develop their resources peacefully for the common economic good.
While I am dealing with the Ruhr, I should like to say a word about ownership. It has been argued by the noble Earl, by analogy with an entirely different situation, that the real solution to the problem of the Ruhr's future in Europe is to be found in international ownership of the industries concerned, not in international control. That is a view which His Majesty's Government have carefully considered, but which they believe to be neither practicable nor desirable. His Majesty's Government believe, for their part, that the legitimate anxieties of Germany's neighbours and the legitimate anxieties of the German workers upon whose labours and co-operation the future development of the resources of the Ruhr must, in the last instance, depend, can best be reconciled if, under the international control which has now been agreed, the industries themselves are placed in some form of German public ownership. We considered that this policy was the best safeguard, and to that principle we have stood and still stand.
The third of the important documents to which I have referred is the Occupation Statute. In this, the elements of relaxation and control will be properly adjusted. The object of the Statute is to make a clear definition of the relations between the Occupying Powers and the German authorities. This will mean that when the Provisional Government is set up in the course of the next few months it will know exactly where it stands. The drafting of the Occupation Statute has been carried out by the Military Governors in Germany, and, as a result of their work, it is already almost complete. On certain outstanding points, inter-Governmental talks are now in progress in London, but I think I can assure the House that there are no serious obstacles to agreement on a final draft of the Statute. When the final draft is complete it will be submitted for formal approval to the Governments of the United Kingdom, France and the United States of America, and will then be shown to the German political leaders in the Parliamentary Council at Bonn,
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so that it can be dovetailed with the Basic Law.
The Basic Law is the fourth of the important documents. It is, in effect, the constitution for the new German Government. In drafting this constitution, the Germans are still subject to an element of control, but it is very remote control. Within the general framework of a federal and democratic constitutional structure they can design the building to their own specification. During the last few months, the Parliamentary Council have put a good deal of hard work into the preparation of this constitution, and, so far as can be judged at this stage, it is a definite improvement on the Weimar constitution. It is unfortunate, in a way, that most major questions have had to be settled by a majority vote. The Social Democrat Party has favoured greater centralisation than the Christian Democrats, and this has led to some friction. However, it is not our intention to intervene in these inter-Party disagreements. Our interest is merely to see that certain principles are observed which will ensure that the new constitutional structure will be built on a genuinely federalist and democratic basis and will, therefore, stand in the way of any revival of a totalitarian machine for a new Hitler.
Those are the four basic documents on Germany. Two of then have already been published, and two more are due for completion before very long. I ask the House not to take a narrow view of any one document or of any single aspect, but to look on them together as parts of a coherent and developing plan for Germany as a whole. The essence of the plan is to grant an increasing measure of liberty and responsibility to the Germans. This process will be hastened if the Germans recognise that evolution towards complete independence and equality of rights with other Western countries must be gradual. Under the Occupation Statute and the Basic Law, great powers will be transferred to the Germans. But these documents will also specify the powers which, for the time being, must be retained by the Occupying Powers. In this sense, they may appear restrictive. But if the Germans address themselves to the task of using their new powers wisely, if they will co-operate in placing the new Germany and Western

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Europe on the road to recovery, they will hasten the day when a peaceful and democratic Germany can take the place which is being kept for her at the European table.
Finally, in the sphere of Western Union, steady progress has been made in the work of the various organs set up under the Brussels Treaty. The Consultative Council, consisting of the Foreign Ministers of the five Powers, is due to hold its fourth meeting in London on January 26. The Defence Ministers of the five Powers held their third quarterly meeting in Brussels last week. In October last, a Commanders-in-Chief Committee was set up under the chairmanship of Field-Marshal Viscount Montgomery, and has established its headquarters at Fontainebleau. Experts from the five countries have also been busy working out the implementation of those articles of the Treaty which provide for social and cultural collaboration. There have also been a number of meetings of experts on social, cultural and public health matters. Thus the machinery established by the Brussels Treaty is being used to promote collaboration between the Signatory Powers, and His Majesty's Government hope that it will set a pattern for the future collaboration of all the European nations.
Meanwhile, as the House is aware, by decision of the five Foreign Ministers in October a Committee was set up in Paris to study schemes for promoting European unity. This Committee resumed its work yesterday, and hopes to be able to submit a report to the next meeting of the Brussels Treaty Consultative Council in London on January 26. I will not attempt to anticipate the character of this Report. I will only say this. European unity will not be achieved by gestures or by attempting to take short cuts; and precipitate and ill-considered action will only retard the creation of European unity. This has been amply demonstrated in the debates which have attended our efforts to harmonise the economic policy of European countries. The House will also have noticed that in their recent debate on appropriation for the Western Union headquarters at Fontainebleau, the French Chamber expressed misgivings at the creation of a Combined Command in Western Europe on the ground that this would involve an excessive surrender of
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French national sovereignty. These experiences warn us that we should be wise to advance by a series of practical measures designed to create those common interests on which only can true union be founded.
THE EARL OF PERTH: May I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment. Was not the decision of the French Assembly, which he has just mentioned, reversed later?
LORD HENDERSON: I could not say off-hand. But even if it was reversed, the point is that it was taken on that occasion for the reason which I have given. The noble Earl, Lord Perth, has made reference to Italy, and I should like to take the opportunity of saying that His Majesty's Government welcome the association of Italy with the West, and they trust that Italy will become an original member of the political organism which it is now proposed to create in Western Europe. Conversations on the conclusion of the North Atlantic Pact, to which reference has been made, are still proceeding in Washington between the representatives of the United States, Canada and the five Brussels Powers; and I regret that at this stage I am not in a position to make any public statement on the subject. I am, however, confident that the present year will see a notable strengthening of the contractual and sentimental bonds which unite those Western nations which cherish the ideals of freedom and democracy.
My Lords, I regret I have not been able to deal with other matters of interest to your Lordships. Fortunately, as I have already said, the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor is to speak at the end of the debate, and I am sure he will remedy my omissions. I would just like to express my appreciation to the noble Viscount whose Motion has provided an opportunity for the Government to give some account of their own policies and activities.
4.31 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, in a debate of this world-wide scope, I feel that it is possible for one member, especially for a Back Bencher like myself, to deal with only one particular part of the field. Perhaps, as a Back Bencher, I have a certain advantage in that I shall be able to speak with a little greater

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freedom than noble Lords who have so far addressed your Lordships. I propose to deal with South-East Asia and the question of Indonesia. Apart from my own personal experience, and I can claim some knowledge of the Netherlands East Indies as well as of Malaya, it is perhaps natural that I, as President of the Association of British Malaya, should take this opportunity of addressing a warning, if that is not too arrogant a term to use to your Lordships, about what is likely to happen if we do not stiffen our policy and face the actual facts in Indonesia.
In listening to the noble Viscount who opened the debate, I could not help reflecting what an exemplification his speech was of the fact that foreign policy knows no Party boundaries. I find myself in great sympathy with what he said about Indonesia, and I hope to convince your Lordships that all Parties here have a common cause. I trust that other voices on this side of the House will be raised to deplore our failure to give moral leadership and publicly defend what we know to be the right. We hear a great deal to-day, perhaps too much, about government of the people by the people for the people. But what else did Abraham Lincoln have to say? Did he not also speak of acting "with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right"? I shall hope to make clear why I think that the action of the Dutch is fundamentally right, a view that is shared by practically every competent critic in the land. I hope I may be forgiven if, in order to sketch the background, I go into a few geographical details which may be familiar to many of your Lordships; but I feel that it is necessary to go into these details because the whole situation has been so obscured in this country that it is almost impossible to arrive at a right decision, or a right opinion, unless one has a personal knowledge of the true facts.
To begin with (though this may sound very elementary), the Netherlands East Indies is a purely artificial unity. It was created by the Dutch in just the same way as we drew a few lines on a map and called it Nigeria. It constitutes a vast archipelago, consisting mainly of five large island groups—Sumatra, Java, Borneo, Celebes, and New Guinea—with thousands of smaller islands. This archipelago occupies a space on the globe
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approximately 3,000 miles in an east-west direction and 1,000 miles in a south-north direction. It approximates in area to about two-thirds of Europe, and if superimposed upon a map of Europe, it would stretch from Ireland to the Crimea and from Copenhagen to Genoa. The population is about 72,000,000. There are twenty-five distinct languages and 250 dialects. From the earliest days, the Dutch, a nation of 9,000,000, faced this immense task, upheld the authority of such native functionaries as they found in the country, and framed their policy on steady development through native institutions, social, economic and political—a policy very similar to our own.
I have no time now, obviously, to deal with the details of this immense subject, but I would like to say that the Dutch, like other European countries, including ourselves, followed a steadily higher ideal of trusteeship. It grew, just as our own ideal grew, as time went on. The Dutch themselves, after all, are a nation of advanced economic and political development, and unreasonable coercion of the Javanese and other races never would have earned, and does not earn, their approval. It is true that before the war many Dutchmen deplored the speed at which their Government were pushing political responsibility upon the politically immature Indonesians. They felt that the future of Indonesia still depends on its orderly productivity, and that premature encouragement of the democratic urge will turn order into disorder and productivity into sterility. The great problem, of course, was, and always has been, Java, with a present population of nearly 45,000,000 and an annual increase of about 700,000. In the days before the war, the Dutch-controlled Government curtailed the production of non-creative products, enforced the cultivation of staple foodstuffs, encouraged industrial expansion and vigorously promoted transmigration to the outer islands. In fact, as your Lordships may have noticed as I spoke, the Dutch policy in Java was very similar to the policy of His Majesty's Government at the present moment in England. The policies are almost indistinguishable, except perhaps that in Java the Dutch Government were successful finally in making Java self-supporting in foodstuffs. Although it is not the case, I could understand it if the Opposition

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condemned Dutch rule in Java as too severe; but I cannot understand the present Government in this country doing so. Or is it that strict control in the interests of the people becomes a wicked thing only when another nation does it?
Before the war, all branches of the Government service in the Netherlands East Indies held officers of mixed blood, some of whom have risen to the top (I believe they have even had a Governor-General of mixed blood), and underneath there were many pure Indonesians who were being educated and encouraged to aspire to the top positions. Again, that is a very similar policy to our own, except that the Dutch have carried it further than we have succeeded in carrying it. Then came the war, when the Netherlands East Indies came under Japanese rule. In 1945 came the fall of Japan. Before the British and the Dutch landed in Batavia, Republic Indonesia was self-constituted on August 17, 1945, with the most notorious Japanese collaborators in charge. It was set up by revolutionary means. A small gang in charge were armed by the retiring Japanese, and their aim was not a United States of Indonesia but a Republic Indonesia, centralised in Djokja under their own control—in other words, an empire. Most of the other peoples in Indonesia dreaded and opposed the domination of the Republic, especially East Indonesia and West Java. Let it be understood that the Dutch were always willing and anxious, as they have said, to acknowledge the aspirations of this Republic for independence as a unit of a United States of Indonesia, with the Dutch as protecting Power, retaining reserved powers over defence and foreign affairs. And the Dutch undertook to apply for their inclusion in the United Nations as soon as they were ready for full independence.
Since the war the Dutch have abolished the office of Governor-General and such symbols of a Colonial rule. In his place a high representative of the Crown, a Royal Commissioner, forms the link. They have created seven States, or State-like entities, which have been instituted by decree with Dutch assistance. It is necessary to understand that we are not dealing with a lot of nascent democracies. There are various degrees of feudalism which have survived, and the governing
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bodies have had to be constituted, some by succession, some by election and some by appointment. Otherwise, there would be complete anarchy. The States have previously been governed autocratically through their native institutions, and they present a picture—a customary picture at this stage of development—of tradition, hereditary feudal rights and an illiterate population. No sane person with a knowledge of the facts would claim that they could get on without the help of Dutch officers. Indeed, East and South Borneo, and New Guinea, are still left out of the new State arrangements because it is totally impossible to find anybody there of native birth who has any capacity whatever for assuming any responsibility.
The reason why Java is more advanced is its dense population—45,000,000—and its long political history, stretching back to the kingdom of Maja Pahit in the fourteenth century. It is easy to see what a glittering prize of empire and exploitation lies before Soekarno and Hatta and their Communist supporters if they can get rid of the Dutch, at whatever cost to the welfare of their people. In any case, by the Linggadjati and the Renville Agreements the Republic undertook to recognise the scheme for a United States of Indonesia and, by implication, undertook to participate in it. Since then they have, in spirit and in letter, evaded and broken all the terms they could.
With your Lordships' permission, I should like to glance first of all at the general qualifications for self-government of Republic Indonesia, and then at the manner of men in charge. They are terribly short of men of the intellectual character required to run a State. It may be of interest to your Lordships to hear the figures which I collected of qualified Indonesians. There are 400 with a medical degree, 300 with a law degree, 50 with an agricultural and engineering degree, 20 with engineering and natural science degrees, 800 with a university degree, but more with middle school training. The intelligentsia number about 2,500 to 3,000.
There are three political groups—namely, a Left Wing group, a small fanatical Moslem group, and a Youth group. The number of men who can discuss
affairs with understanding is estimated by pessimists at 300, and by ardent optimists at 5,000. All this is out of a population

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of 72,000,000. Very few of them have any understanding of what the Linggadjati and Renville Agreements are about. The ordinary people are willing to co-operate with the Dutch and they bear no hatred or resentment against Westerners. The trouble is that democracy is being forced on people not ready for it, and the Dutch problem is to bridge over the time needed to teach them what democracy means. The mass of the population played no rôle at all before the Japanese invasion. In Java they accepted the leadership of the nobility and the divine rule of the four Princes, descendants of the King of Mataram. They were as markedly happy a race at that time—I can speak of that from personal experience—as, indeed, they are bewildered and utterly miserable to-day.
I would now consider for a moment the type of men in charge at Djokja, the men who rule over 25,000,000 of their immediate subordinates, and aim at hegemony over the remaining 50,000,000 of the rest of Java, Sumatra, and the outer islands. Soekarno and his colleagues are in reality war criminals. They were decorated by the Japanese, and they aim solely at power. They are ready to see Indonesia and their people sink back to any condition that may be involved, so long as they themselves have the power to rule over them. I have no time to go into the details of the records of these gentlemen; they are well enough known to anybody who cares to read. However, I should like to mention two incidents which are not so well known. The Dutch Government before the war joined in the general measures for suppression of the opium traffic, with which I was familiar in Malaya—controlled sales, followed by annual reduction. The Japanese, when they took charge, stopped all that, of course, and increased production by every possible means. On their capitulation, twenty-two tons of the best raw Persian and Turkish opium were taken by the Republican representatives from Batavia to Djokja to prevent it falling into the hands of the Dutch, who would have destroyed it. Since then, with the agreement of the Soekarno Cabinet, and under the direct management of successive Ministers of Finance, this opium has been steadily disposed of in neighbouring countries in order to provide this
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Republic with precious foreign finance which they needed to further their aims.
The next question is of unusual interest, and it takes the form of a draft agreement between the Republic of Indonesia and a large American financial corporation. I want to make it quite clear that I am not making any reflections upon the Government of the United States—that is not part of my purpose at all. I have no doubt that the State Department stopped these negotiations when they heard of them, and it may be they view them with the same horror that I do myself. I am quoting it in order that I may illustrate the type of man we are asked to put back in charge in this country—the type of man who claims to be the representative of his people rightly struggling to be free.
This is an agreement between the Republican Government and Matthew Fox of New York. It is an:
"Agreement, made January, 1948, between the Republic of Indonesia, herein called the Government' as party of the first part, and Matthew Fox of New York, N.Y., herein called 'Fox,' as party of the second part."
I may say in passing that there is a long preamble which talks about benefits which this agreement will confer upon the people of Indonesia. The Dutch have a very relevant proverb in this respect. It says that:
"Reynard is still Reynard, though he put on a cowl."
This agreement is said to be with farsighted and sympathetic American business interests willing to undertake the risks involved in overcoming obstacles now facing the Indonesian Government. First of all there is a description of what the corporation is to do. The aim of the agreement is:
"To procure the aid of the Corporation … to assist it (a) in achieving economic stability and commercial expansion by obtaining, when, if and to the extent requested by it, technical, engineering, economic and financial assistance; (b) in fostering the rehabilitation, reconstruction and expansion of existing Indonesian enterprises and facilities; (c) in developing the human, mineral, fishery, agricultural and all other Indonesian resources; and (d) in stimulating the industrialisation of the Indonesian Republic including manufacturing, processing, transportation, communications, shipping, waterways, electrification, public works and construction industries, banking, trading and other commercial activities."

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In other words, selling the country to this corporation. I have no time to go into the full details, but it is interesting to see the various financial provisions including the 7½ per cent. which Mr. Fox and his friends would get out of all these transactions and the various provisions relating to funds and credits. Then there is the provision which makes this corporation the sole and exclusive agent of the Government of Indonesia for the purchases of all commodities made by the Government in the United States, and so on.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Fox aid!
LORD MILVERTON: "Commodities" is then defined as meaning
"goods, wares, merchandise, machinery, equipment, commodities, minerals"—
in fact it covers everything you can think of in a modern State. It excludes, for the moment, development enterprises. Then there is another clause which deals with development enterprises. It not only gives the corporation charge over all development of every kind—communications, hydroelectric, railroads, highways, sanitation, public works and so forth—but is even careful enough to say that there are some things which apparently will still have to be done by private enterprise, but
"… to the extent that such activities are subject to effective control or domination by the Government, they are included within the scope of the Corporation's exclusive representation of the Government …"
There are many clauses which I could read, but I have not the time. There is, however, one interesting clause which states:
"Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this Agreement or the breach thereof shall be settled in accordance with the rules then obtaining of the American Arbitration Association, and the Government agrees to waive its sovereign immunity and to submit itself and its agencies to the jurisdiction of all courts of the United States or any State thereof having competency to act in the premises …"
This is not the time or the place to say anything about "dollar imperialism," and, as I have said, I am not for one moment suggesting that the United States Government would do other than view this agreement with the horror that we feel. It does illustrate, however, the manner of men we are asked to put back in charge.
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When Dr. Jessup condemns the Russians (and I could not agree with him more) and the Dutch (and I could not agree with him less) it prompts one to reflect that if haloes are being worn this season, it is desirable to see that one's own is not tarnished. There are two kinds of nationalism. There is the old traditional type in South-east Asia, based on the ancient glories of race, whether legendary or historical. That is largely a spent force. But there is the new form, based upon the doctrines of Western democracy. It has been taught by us in precept and
practice, and by the Dutch. The disagreement to-day is not whether there shall be self-government, but as to the pace at which it shall come; the disagreement is over the pace of approach and not over the goal itself. There is a constant pattern in these things. India, Pakistan, Ceylon and Burma have, whether they realise it or not, accepted the superiority of the Western way of life, mode of Government and method of trade, and naturally they want economic as well as political control.
But the recent shift in emphasis everywhere is very marked. The struggle is no longer quite the same. Nationalist democracy is itself on the defensive, and the antithesis today is Democracy against Communism, and not Imperialism against Nationalism. Let us never forget that the struggle is for the bodies and souls of millions of unthinking peasants. Now the centre of Communism in the Netherlands East Indies, small though it may be, is Djokja. The Dutch are not opposing nationalism; they are opposing the possibility of the whole nationalist movement in Indonesia falling into the hands of a small but organised group, a group little better than Communists and which certainly has Communist supporters. The Dutch accept and support the Republic, but not the group in nominal charge, who were put there by the Japanese and supplied by them with arms.
When one looks at Northern Korea, Manchuria, North and Central China, Formosa, Indo-China and Burma, one must ask whether, if the Netherlands East Indies are driven into the hands of the Communists by our blindness, Siam and Malaya can long withstand the penetration. America does not seem to realise that to force independence upon the immature States of Indonesia, regardless of consequences, spells chaos, and chaos

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spells Communism. You then have the fantastic spectacle of America building up the Western Powers in Europe to resist Communism, while she undermines them in South-East Asia in order to help Communism, while we stand in palsied indecision, too weak even to hold up our hands in protest. Very soon we shall be too ashamed to hold up our heads.
I appreciate that India and Australia have joined the chorus of condemnation. They are free to take their own course, and it may be that internal political forces are warping the vision of their leaders. The popular cry of "Asia for the Asiatic" can so easily be misdirected in India; and perhaps the influence of the Sydney waterfront is not the most enlightened one as a director of foreign policy. After all, if the rule of the day is to maintain open house, I see no reason why our laundry and the Dutch laundry should be the only ones open to public inspection. I say this with the greatest respect: If the United States of America were to solve their own Colonial problem in the Southern States, if the Indian Brahmins could wipe out racial and class discrimination in India, and reflect on the freedom of Kashmir and Hyderabad, if Australia could spare the time from denouncing the Dutch for a prolonged scrutiny of her own administration of New Guinea, then their views on Dutch administration of the Netherlands East Indies might carry more weight.
But when one reflects that our Foreign Office, by its negative policy, has led us into this position, where recrimination begins amongst friends, is it not time to ask where they are leading us? The one beneficiary from our differences will be Russia, whose Government daily violate, at home and abroad, every principle of freedom for which the United States of America and ourselves stand. I remember that sixteen years ago, when I was in Borneo, the local amateur dramatic society put on a small playlet—I think by A. P. Herbert—in which there was a beautiful maiden as heroine and she sang a song with a very haunting refrain to each verse, which ran:
"West wind, East wind, send me a man.…"
I realise now that Britannia should be cast for this part; but there seems no prospect of either the Foreign Office or the Colonial Office providing an answer to the maiden's prayer! It is the old
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familiar story: weakness at the beginning, and steady degeneration of a situation until it becomes insoluble. I am not preaching Fascism or totalitarianism; I am only pleading for strength and moral courage. To me, as a practical administrator, knowing something of the methods of other nations—at home and abroad—in their administration, a feeling of unreality pervades the scene. When I think of the average United Nations group, with the phylacteries of democracy bound about their brows, condemning the Dutch with total ignorance or disregard of the facts of the situation, I cannot but be filled with uneasiness as to where all this is heading, and to what chaos the worship of words rather than deeds is leading us all.
I notice that The Times two days ago published a statement of five points which were made by the Indian representative at the Security Council and which presumably are to be seriously considered—though how they can be seriously considered I entirely fail to see. The points are, as your Lordships may know, a demand for the release and restoration to authority of the imprisoned Republican leaders; a more active participation by the Security Council and a peace effort by reconstitution of the Good Offices Committee as a Commission the withdrawal of Dutch troops to take place under the supervision of the Good Offices Committee; the removal of the economic blockade—an economic blockade which was instituted largely in order to stop the smuggling out of arms and of saboteurs who would have done damage in territory not under the jurisdiction of the Republic. I can say, without hesitation or fear of contradiction by any qualified critic, that apart from the extremist elements, which were relatively few, the native population as a whole welcomed the return of the Dutch.
A letter from Mr. Arnold Bake, published in The Times of December 29, gave further factual proof of the true character of Soekarno and Hatta. These two "gangsters," who possess no real loyalty to any cause or country, have, through clever Communist-inspired propaganda and dismally ill-informed public opinion, been elevated in the eyes of the Western world to the status of crusaders, whereas they are, in fact, nothing better

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than jackals preying upon a war-ravaged and bewildered native population. If the Japanese had not capitulated when they did, and had the Netherlands East Indies been occupied as a result of full-scale operations, the present trouble would never have occurred. Soekarno and his colleagues would have been captured and tried for what they are—namely, war criminals in every sense of the word. The country would then have returned quickly to peace and prosperity, and the world as a whole would now be benefiting from the vital raw materials still denied to it.
This, of course, would not have suited Moscow. The untimely delay in occupying the Netherlands East Indies, and the weak and vacillating policy which followed, was not the responsibility of the Dutch: it was the responsibility of others. As colonists, the Dutch are second to none, as the noble Viscount who opened the debate pointed out. Their general policy towards the native, his education and general wellbeing, was progressive, and in most respects—let me say it with all the weight I can—more advanced than anything practised in our own Colonies. From the point of view of agricultural and other development, scientific research, and so on, the Dutch have few, if any, equals; and it will be a sorry day for the 72,000,000 inhabitants of the Netherlands East Indies, and for the world as a whole, if their past work is brought to nought and their influence unduly impaired or removed from this vast field of vital resources.
I have spent my time—as have many others who know this part of the world most—wondering who it is that can be advising our Foreign Office in this matter. I cannot believe that any of the officers who know the East would endorse this negative policy which has been followed; and I doubt very much whether that hybrid officer, the Commissioner-General in Singapore, who serves both the Foreign and the Colonial Office, and who is in an excellent position to give the true facts of the situation, would agree with this policy of timorous negation. These are not matters which are the subject of diplomatic secrecy, and it is highly desirable that the whole world should know the truth and should know that we are not trying to bolster up imperialist tyranny or anything of that sort. The
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battle we are fighting, or the battle that I at the present moment am asking the Foreign Office to fight, is the battle of democracy, the battle of the welfare of the working population of the Netherlands East Indies. I am afraid I have detained your Lordships too long. I fear that there is a creeping paralysis of humane indecision lying across our foreign and Colonial field. It seems to me that once more the last laugh will not be in London or in New York, or in New Delhi, but in the Kremlin; and it will be difficult for us to avoid a large share of the blame.
5.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I do not propose to attempt to follow the noble Lord who has just sat down, in his most informative and interesting speech on the rather specialised subject of the foreign affairs of this country. I propose to confine myself to a more general dealing with the subject. I am glad that your Lordships' House has been given this opportunity to discuss the matter. I venture respectfully to thank my noble friend for having raised this question of the most serious position of international affairs. In my life-time, I do not remember any occasion when the position of this country and all that it stands for has been more critical; and it is right that your Lordships, many of whom have considerable national and international experience, should contribute to a solution of the difficulties. As we are frequently told, the main function of this House is to be a Council of State.
The widespread unrest in Europe has now spread into Asia, China, Malaya, Indonesia (as we have just heard) and Burma. In each of those countries there is something very near to, if it has not actually developed into, war. Of course, there is the prominent question of Palestine. In Egypt there is considerable unrest. In Greece there is a most disturbing condition. Above all, of course, there is the controversy over Berlin. Nor can we get much comfort from the uncomfortable state of affairs in the Balkans, in Spain, in Italy, and even in France. If we ask what is the cause of this, the answer is plain. Certainly the economic position is difficult but, to an onlooker like myself, it seems as though it is becoming more hopeful, except for the political situation. That is

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the crux. The brutal fact is—and your Lordships will do well to face it—that the policy of the Kremlin is at the root of most of the general disquiet. I am told that Russia does not want war. So far as the Russian people are concerned, I believe that is true. There seems no reason to doubt that they share with the overwhelming majority of the civilised peoples of the world an abiding hatred of war and a longing for a settled peace. It may also be true of the Russian Government, or some part of it—probably it is, at least for the immediate future.
But what of their long-term policy, if they have one? I am a great believer in the old legal maxim that a man must be taken to intend the natural consequences of his acts. As a practical matter, that is true of the ordinary man, and it applies equally to Governments. Therefore, if we hope to attain to any understanding of the present position of the Russian Government, we must examine what they have done or are doing. In the first place, they are said to have kept in being large numbers of organised troops. That is not seriously disputed. In the United States, in the British Commonwealth, in France and in other European countries, great military reductions have been made. We are assured—I speak from an outside point of view—that the reductions in Russia have been much smaller, both on land and in the air. That means, of course, that their arms and equipment have been treated in the same way. I do not forget the atomic bombs. Perhaps the Russians have not yet been able to make them on any considerable scale. Even as to that, their refusal to agree to any effective international inspection is ominous. I remember, as no doubt your Lordships do, how before the last war the Russians were able to conceal their preparations from the whole world. Just before they came into the war, we were told, upon what seemed good authority, that their army would not be able to resist the Germans for more than a few weeks. Fortunately for us, the truth was very different. Therefore, it would be very rash to assume that, because we do not know of them, the Russians are even now without atomic weapons. I will add that they will almost certainly have them before very long, possibly with other even more disastrous inventions.
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Nor should their actual preparation for war be alone considered. Their whole policy looks the same way. They have not only adopted as their official creed the economic tenets of Marx and Lenin, based upon a crude materialism, which has just been so feelingly referred to by my noble friend, Lord Perth, and which is, in itself, a grave danger to their neighbours, but they have openly announced that they plan that these views should be generally accepted either by persuasion—which they do not think likely—or, if necessary, by force. Remember that their Government is a revolutionary Government. It has behind it no traditions of moderation or self-restraint. We have seen it in action in Central Europe. We have seen the Governments of many of the neighbouring countries brought under Russian domination. All the machinery of justice—again referred to by my noble friend, Lord Perth—and the guarantees of liberty have been transformed in those countries into branches of the executive Government, pledged to enforce the well-known principles of despotism decked out with the catchwords of a false philosophy. In this they are following the precedents set up by Mussolini and Hitler, and we have seen what they led to in their own countries and in large parts of Europe.
I know this is a sombre picture, but there is more to add to it. It seems to be part of the deliberate policy of the present Russian Government to create or keep alive internal troubles in other countries. Through the various so-called Communist organisations they have created difficulties and disquiet in many places. No doubt they have been aided in some of them by defects in the established systems of government, but that has often been a mere pretext. The object has been to create troubled waters in which Russia may fish. Sometimes it takes the root form of using their veto in the United Nations to prevent changes desired by the great majority of its members. On other occasions they have kept alive international disputes, as in Berlin, which serve to bring about a present atmosphere of unrest which at a given moment can easily be stoked up into an atmosphere of war.
I know that all this is familiar to your Lordships, and I have not recalled it merely to excite enmity against Russia. On the contrary, I desire very earnestly

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the friendship of that country. But the best way of obtaining it is to state, so far as an unofficial member of the House can do so, what is the true position at present. Is it not that, though there may not be any immediate prospect of war—as I hope is the case—yet it does look as if the ground is being prepared to enable the Kremlin at some future time (perhaps not this year or next; but at no very distant date) to require country after country either to adopt Russian principles and accept Russia domination or else to fight? That means a deliberate policy of aggression. I ask myself: how are we going to meet it? If my reading of the facts is sound, I do not see how mere argument, diplomatic negotiation or anything of that kind is going to help us. That is a very useful international implement if the parties desire to reach an agreement; but if they do not it is a mere excuse for doing nothing. Indeed, it is worse than that. It may easily be a screen behind which the aggressor is completing his plans, just as the policy of Munich enabled Germany, as General Keitel explained to us, to put the finishing touches to their armaments. I am glad, therefore, to learn that that is not the policy of the Government.
Then there are those who believe in world government as the only remedy. That means, I suppose, that all existing national Governments should accept federation into one world organisation, with a World Cabinet and, I suppose, a World Parliament. That seems to me quite impracticable. No such solution has any chance of being practically adopted, still less of practically working, during the life-time of the youngest member of your Lordships' House. There is much more to be said for European Federation. It may well be that some form of European organisation for economic and other like purposes would be useful, but I doubt if it would work for the purposes of defence at the present time. It might grow in that direction, but not for many years; and what is wanted is some present precaution against war.
Even the Western Union seems to me to be open to a similar criticism. It is, in form, an old-fashioned defensive alliance of ourselves with France and three smaller Powers. Economically, that may have great advantages, but as
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a means of preventing aggression, of convincing the aggressor that his policy cannot succeed, it is evidently not strong enough. May I once again remind the House that we must aim, here and now, not only at victory but at enforcing
peace. A Treaty which only promises help for a few countries against invasion is clearly insufficient. That, no doubt, is why it is proposed to merge the alliance—if that is the proposal—in an Atlantic Pact. I very much regretted that it was impossible for the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, to give us any information about the present position of that scheme. We do not yet know what it is to be. I most heartily agree with those who think the attitude of the United States is vital in this matter. It all depends upon them. It may be that if the United States is to come in as a full member, and if the Pact is to deal with war anywhere, there will be little difference between its effect and that of what seems to me to be the more direct plan of a Treaty against aggression. But if it falls short of that—if, like the Western Union, it is to apply only to actual invasion of the territory of any of its signatories—then I should be very much afraid that a powerful aggressor might go on with its policy elsewhere and risk the consequences.
I believe profoundly in the truth of the maxim "Peace is indivisible." Wherever serious war breaks out it may easily spread over the whole world. The First World War began as an almost insignificant dispute between Austria and Serbia. Even the Second World War may be said to have grown out of a series of events which could be each represented as consistent with general peace. That is why I would much rather see our policy based on the broad foundation that aggression is an international crime which it is the duty of all peace-loving States to prevent or arrest. That is the principle which corresponds to the wishes of mankind. Make it incontrovertibly clear that that is our policy, and we shall have the support of the civilised world. But if instead we advocate some device by which this or that Article of the Charter is made to bear a meaning not universally accepted, or propose that by sonic ingenious use of certain of the Charter's phrases the control of action by the Security Council can be evaded, then our policy will be perilous and perhaps disastrous.

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It is for that reason that I distrust any plan based on the theory that Article 51 of the Charter may, without any enlargement, be made to cover any agreement. I agree, of course, that the general purpose of the Charter is to prevent aggression. But to me it seems that the plain intention of the document is that that function is to be carried out through the instrumentality of the Security Council; and, as we all know, any substantive action by that body requires the consent of all the permanent Powers. It is true that Article 51, in principle, saves the right of self-defence—that is to say, arrangements for self-defence need not necessarily be subject to all the conditions of the Charter. That is a great principle, and well worth consideration. It is further said that the defence contemplated by Article 51 extends to the defence of any State, on the ground that what endangers one endangers all. But there is no machinery under that Article by which this right is to be carried out, except an intimation that the Security Council is, as soon as possible, to take over control of the proceedings. If and when that is done, of course, the veto on all actions revives.
That this is the meaning of the Article is consistent with Article 53, which says specifically that, in any regional proceeding under the Charter, enforcement action is dependent on the consent of the Security Council. It may be that my reading of these Articles is wrong, but at least it seems to me arguable. That means there is a substantial doubt whether, under the Charter, effective action against an aggressor can be taken without the consent of the Security Council. So long as that doubt remains, the danger of aggression exists. A Power aiming at domination will be ready to take risks. Nothing but a perfectly clear warning that overwhelming force will be ready to stop an aggressor will deter him. Any doubt or hesitation on the subject will make peace insecure.
To my mind our aim is clear. We must remove from the world the threat of an impending war which is hampering our recovery and embittering international relations. Nothing short of that will do. It may be that only by a change of heart among the nations can this be fully done. To take an illustration: individual crime still goes on in
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spite of our criminal law, but it is kept in restraint. What we have to do is to build up a peace structure which will make war as obsolete between nations as duels are between individuals. That may take time. But the first step is to make it clear that no aggression, no resort to war, can succeed, and that any aggressor will find against himself overwhelming forces. That is the object to be secured—if possible, by general agreement, and, at least, by such a concentration of force as will make resistance impossible. What is wanted, as always, is a clear and definite policy on these lines, clothed in unmistakable language. And this must not be long delayed.
5.33 p.m.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, your Lordships will forgive me if I do not address myself to some of the questions which have been raised in the debate this afternoon, but deal rather with the larger question raised by the noble Viscount who opened this discussion, when he said that he thought it was right to seek the overall objectives—in other words, I propose to step back a little from the immediate picture and take what will now, I suppose, be called an aeronaut's view of the new atlas of the world which is coming into being in this, the beginning of the second half of the twentieth century, and to see how far the consequences affect ourselves.
But I fear that I must turn aside for a few moments to deal with the speech which has been made by Lord Milverton. It is some considerable time since I was intimately associated, as a member of the British Cabinet, with the events in Indonesia, and I am not, therefore, in the position to answer in anything like detail the speech which the noble Lord made. So I will confine myself to two statements. In the first place, I want to make it perfectly clear that I profoundly disagree with the attitude which he took up. I believe it to be contrary to the facts, and I believe that it is not shared by the men who have
studied the matter in the greatest detail. When he says that no competent observers take a view different from the one which he has put forward, I venture to submit that that is merely suggesting that everyone who disagrees with him is not a competent observer.

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When he says that we in this country, our Foreign Office, have taken a negative attitude, he ignores the fact that for over a year after the end of hostilities against Japan we had large forces in Indonesia, that they took an active part in dealing with the pacification of the country and that we sent out two of our most distinguished diplomats who gave reports to the Cabinet, at the time, on which our policy was based. Those two men could scarcely be called, even by Lord Milverton, "incompetent observers." They were Lord Inverchapel and Lord Killearn. When he suggests that we took a negative attitude, knowing that large numbers of our own troops were killed in action in consequence of our attempt to pacify Indonesia, I find myself at complete variance with the tale which he has told in your Lordships' House. I do not want to pursue the matter further, but I do ask your Lordships most earnestly not to take the statement which the noble Lord has made as in any way representing the facts of the case. As I said before, I profoundly disagree with him, and I venture to think that the views of competent men on whose advice the policy of His Majesty's Government has been based during all this time since the war with Japan came to an end should be thoroughly understood before the alleged facts which have been put before us this afternoon are taken as a correct version of what is going on. I do not propose to go further into the matter at this stage.
I wish now to turn to the larger aspects which prompted me to ask to be allowed to take part in the debate in this House to-day. The facts are that in this last year before the beginning of the second half of the twentieth century we are witnessing great changes in the world. In the first place, we are witnessing the end of Empires. In the second place, we are witnessing the obsolescence of the sovereignty of the European nation-States that have taken such a prominent place in world history during the last hundred years or more. We are witnessing the re-birth of Asia. We are witnessing the coming into nationhood of the Jewish race. We are witnessing the uprising of the subject and coloured peoples of the world. These great events coming to fruition at the end of the first half of the
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century are the counterparts of the individual changes that have taken place within countries in the first two quarters of the century. We had, in the first quarter, the resurgence of the women of this country, demanding an equal position with men in our civilisation. In the second half we have had coming largely to fruition a similar demand for equality by the working peoples of the various countries of the world.
How is Britain—this United Kingdom of ours—going to survive and function in the situation which will be with us in the second half of the twentieth century? I say this: that just as this country led the way in political democracy and in the Industrial Revolution, so we must be in advance of other countries in comprehending and adapting ourselves to the new atlas of the world which will come into being with the second half of this century. We must realise that nation-States which have held the field during the last
centuries are to-day nearly as dead in their sovereignty as the city-States of the ancient world and of the Middle Ages. In place of these all-powerful sovereign States we have to-day great blocs of associated peoples. We have the United States of America; we have the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, China, Latin America, and, last but by no means least, we have the British Commonwealth of Nations. And it may be that we are forming to-day a federated union of the Western nations of Europe, although that bloc at present has not yet come into being.
With the exception of Russia, and possibly China, these great blocs are free assemblies of free peoples and, as I have said, by no means the least of them is the British Commonwealth. If we hold together, we have in the Commonwealth a bloc of the greatest population of all the blocs to which I have referred. It is the case that our position, stretching over many continents and washed by all the oceans of the world, instead of being a weakness is a source of strength. The days were when the land-continuous countries were strong because wars were largely fought on the land, but to-day, when wars are fought largely in the air, our position has a great advantage. No country that has not bases in various parts of the world can hope to wage a successful global war. Therefore, I contend that, from the point of view of war, the British

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Commonwealth is really one of the most powerful of the great blocs of peoples in the world.
Not only is it strong in war, but it is strong in peace, because our lands, situated in every latitude and on every continent, can produce nearly all the articles which are needed for the life of man. But, of course, it all turns on whether the British Commonwealth holds together, and that is the essential point. That is why it seems to me that the answer I should give to the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood is that the strength we have to develop is not, as he said, in union with two or three nation States in Western Europe but in the cohesion of the British Commonwealth. That is why I find myself at variance with some of the noble Lords who sit opposite who want to be punctilious about the Commonwealth, excluding those who are not prepared to accept certain forms, certain links which bind us together. I am all for keeping all the links we can have, but I would rather keep the free association of peoples of other parts of the world in effective alliance and association with us, even if it involves an agreement to allow them not to accept any particular tie which has hitherto held together the members of the Commonwealth.
In this regard I want to call the attention of your Lordships' House to the great importance of the new Asiatic Dominions. I think few people realise that before the partition of India, the population of that country was greater than that of the whole of the United States of America, the whole of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, and the whole of the white population of the British Empire rolled into one. Even to-day, since the partition of India, when Pandit Nehru was here as Prime Minister of the Dominion of India, he represented a larger population than all the rest of the British Empire taken together, including the Dominion of Pakistan. India is not only a country of great population, but it played a great, almost a decisive, part in the last war. It occupies a strategic position in the world. It has a pivotal site, which means that almost every plane flying East to West and West to East must come down either in India, Pakistan, or Ceylon. Therefore, it is essential to the successful working and defence of this country, and of our kith and kin in Australia and other parts of
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the Commonwealth, that these two great Dominions shall remain associated with us. I believe that if we can keep their affection and loyalty, world peace can be obtained.
But in my opinion that is not quite all. I believe that we have to take an essentially liberal view with regard to the peoples of the world who are rightly struggling to be freed from subjection and tyranny, whether within or without their borders. I believe that that is the essential defence against Communism, or any domination of the Socialist Soviet Republics. In that connection I venture to commend to your Lordships a small book I have been reading during the Recess. It is written by an American, German by origin, named Fritz Sternberg, and is entitled How to Stop Russia Without War. The author puts forward a thesis which is one which I put before your Lordships some little time back in 1948. Our case must be upheld, not merely by force of arms, not merely by making our own bloc strong, not merely by joining with other blocs in the world, but by preventing the continuous adhesion of new countries to the Russian bloc. How can we do that? We can do that by making it clear to peoples, both by words and deeds, that our sympathy is with their liberty, that our sympathy is with the common man in his struggle to free himself from the injustices to which he has been subject for generations and from the tyrannies which have been imposed upon him by class and racial domination.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: And Russia.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Russia has not gone on for generations in its present form. If the noble Viscount refers to Russia of days gone by, I quite agree, because Russia was dominated by one of the worst tyrannies which have existed. If he suggests that I am not taking the view that we have to resist this Communist attitude of Russia, I think, if he has listened to what I have said, he will realise that I am in full sympathy with him on that point. The right way to combat Russian advance is two-fold. First of all, it is necessary to be strong and to make an association with other peoples who have our way of life. But that is not enough; we have also to make it clear to the peoples of the countries who have not yet decided

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with which great division they will throw in their lot, that we, the democracies of the West, stand for their liberty and their freedom, and for the equality of class and the abolition of privilege in their countries. When we do that we shall find that it is we who are gathering to ourselves the forces of the world, and not those of the Soviet Union who profess to be out for the liberties of the people, but who in fact very largely impose upon them tyrannies as great as, and possibly greater than, those they suffered under the old régime.
5.51 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, said when he was speaking that there are a number of topics on which one might enlarge, and I feel inclined to follow his example and limit myself to some of my own choice, though I would have wished to say something in regard to the last two speeches which we have heard. I will begin by taking up the decision of the British and United States Governments to remit to some future German Government the decision as to the ownership of the key industries of the Ruhr. That seems to me to be a most colossal leap in the dark, because we have not even seen that Government and we do not know what it is going to be like. The signs and portents so far seem to indicate that it will have at least some features of which we will certainly disapprove. Over-centralisation in Germany has given us two world wars. For thirty years I have been urging that the only salvation for Europe is a genuinely federalised Germany. I am convinced that the vast majority of what is left of Europe would agree with me on that point. The reason for that is quite simple. Our chances of inculcating genuine democracy into Germany are tenuous. The only chance is that democracy should be learned from below and not imposed from above. In other words, there must be the maximum of local government, and that is the main case of federalism against centralism.
I have also spent a good deal of my time in trying to point out the marked differences that exist between British Socialists and their ostensibly opposite numbers in Germany. I am not going to enlarge upon that to-day, because it happens to have been done for me. As I was coming here to-day I saw an article
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in Forward that had been written by Professor Harold Laski. It starts with a few preliminary jabs at Vansittartism—which, of course, is only part of the ritual—and the whole of the rest of the article might have been written by Vansittart. I am very sorry for any embarrassment I may cause to noble Lords on my left, or to the Professor himself, but there it is. I will not go into that matter further to-day, except to make one point, and that is that nearly all the Social Democrats in Germany have been "dyed-in-the-wool" centralists. They have a majority in the Parliamentary Council at Bonn; they hold thirty-five out of the sixty-six seats. Now it is pretty clear what they have in mind. It is a kind of "phoney" federalism, as I have called it in this House before, and they have shown their hand in a manner that bears me out, not for the first time.
There has just come into my possession a German newspaper which contains the rough draft of the new German constitution. That draft, I understand, leaked out against the wishes of the Parliamentary Council at Bonn, and I am not surprised, because it is full of centralism. It is a whacking great document, and I confess that I have only had time to give it a first reading, but, from that first reading, there already emerge four features to which I take the strongest exception, and I think the Government may be disquieted by them, too. Articles 24 to 27 provide for the remodelling of the States or Laender—Neugliederung is the word which they prefer. I would remind the House that that is exactly what is being done by the Communists in Czechoslovakia to the historic Provinces of Bohemia and Moravia. There they want to go further and abolish the names altogether. Why are they doing that? It is obvious that they wish to increase the stranglehold of the centralists. What the new German constitution apparently proposes does not go so far as that, but it does cut the natural historical root of true federalism. The new federal State will not consist of pre-existing States. On the contrary, by federal law (I ask your Lordships to note this) the Central (I ask your Lordships to note that, too) Assembly will constitute new States, which will in fact be administrative units. I ask you: Is that a promising preliminary for genuine federalism?

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Articles 30 to 44 bear a great headline which runs Bundesrecht bricht Landesrecht, which means that federal law overrides State law; and Article 31 consists of only those three German words. Do you really think that that is a promising basis for genuine federalism? There is more to come. Articles 108 to 111 provide in certain circumstances for the introduction of legislation by decree. I have spoken of that before. Your Lordships will remember that that was the bane of the Weimar constitution. You may also remember that the offending Article was Article 48. That Article was inserted in the constitution with great
reluctance by the draftsman, Doctor Preuss, because he feared that it might lead to future abuses. He did not feel able to oppose it at that time as there were Communist riots going on. But his apprehensions were completely borne out. Your Lordships will remember that Doctor Brunning had increasing resort to that poison, and thereby prepared the way for Hitler who governed by nothing but decree.
Many people in this country think that because I am a tough fighter in these matters I am unfair. But I am not. I give to their friends, German or Russian, just as much justice as truth allows, and no more. I am so fair that I am quite prepared to make the German case in this instance. They might well turn round and say: "What are you picking on us for? Why, your own Government took powers for something very similar in August, 1947." I remember that very clearly, because it happens to be the occasion of my solitary incursion into internal politics. In order to make quite certain that my memory had not played me false, I looked it up in Hansard this afternoon and found that I made a speech on August 12, 1947, in which I emphasised the sequence—Article 48, Brunning, Hitler—and said that I viewed those powers with considerable apprehension. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, who replied to me, said that I need not be apprehensive of him and his colleagues turning into Hiders, and thereby missed the precise point that I had already made in my speech: that I did not mistrust the Front Bench then, but that I had considerable apprehensions as to what use might be made of those powers by unscrupulous successors. That is what I say to the
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Germans. No one knows where that might lead us, even if it proved innocuous at first. I would remind the House that it took over ten years to go definitely wrong in the inter-war period. It might take no longer now, and, in view of the existing spirit in Germany, it might take less time. Anyhow, it offers an opening which disquiets me very much.
Articles 122 to l26 provide for the financial domination of the central organs. In them is vested all real sovereignty; in them resides all the power that really matters. The States Council is left with a circumscribed veto which might easily be over-ridden. Not only is there the financial domination of the central organs, which means centralisation in the financial field, but they actually provide for a central financial administration in the State, and these people may well lord it over the Laender.
That seems very disquieting, but again that is not the whole of the story. There is a very distinct tendency in Germany now—I noticed it in the German Press myself—to talk of centralised parties, of centralised trade unions, of centralised youth movements and the whole outfit. All that is destructive of federalism and, therefore, of democracy, which I repeat can only he learned from the bottom up. I do not like that at all. There is something else. I think that the one thing about which everybody in Europe has always agreed with me is that the essential feature of a true federation must be that the police are in the exclusive control of the Laender and not of the central authority. Already in the German Press I see talk of a centralized criminal police. That could easily be the thin end of the wedge. There is more than that again. There is also talk of what is called the Kasernierte Polizei. Literally translated, that is "police in barracks," but it means a great deal more than that. The police in barracks during the inter-war period left a very evil reputation. They had their generals, their tanks and their artillery, and it was, in fact, a branch of the German Army and very fertile ground for breaking the Disarmament Clauses of the Treaty of Versailles.
I should be glad to have some assurance that nothing of that kind will happen again. Do not think I am

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exaggerating. I am not saying that this could lead to any immediate result which would be fatal, but I do say that if a constitution containing those features is brought into force, we may very likely thereby be allowing the first step to a return of power politics. It really is up to the Germans to adopt a genuine federal constitution by checking the system which has caused the death of 50,000,000 people in this unhappy world. It is all too easily forgotten there, and very often all too easily forgotten elsewhere, but I do not forget. Do not misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that we should impose any constitution on the Germans—certainly not. That would be futile and foolish. But we are entitled to say that certain features have had lethal results in the past, and that those at least we should not endure again.
The alternative to that is the defeatism of last week's Economist, which said: "Let them have any constitution they like," in their own words; give them carte blanche. I differ from that. I believe it is possible to be modern without forgetting every lesson of the past. I think it is already rather a bad sign that I should have to be saying this. We all know—as was mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Perth, this afternoon—that the spirit of Germany is visibly changing for the worse. Nationalism is rampant, and not only that, but there is a kind of neo-Nazism which is latent. We have to face the possibility at least that the good Germans may again find themselves at some future date in an impotent minority. I had a letter the other day from Professor Foerster—I think many of you may know him by name. He is the most courageous of all fighters against tyranny in Germany. He is now in the United States, as his own land was made uninhabitable for him. He has resisted tyranny since the beginning of the century, and in that letter he expressed the anxiety lest the better Germans might again find themselves overrun.
After that analysis, I return to the point which I made originally. Is it really proposed to hand over this really vital decision to any such Government? Now let us suppose that the Social Democrats are still in a majority. Their decision will obviously be that these vital industries should be nationalised. Very well,
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that might work in certain circumstances. I am not going to say anything to-day about the merits or demerits of nationalisation, because that is right "off my beat." This is a Foreign Affairs debate, and I will not go into Home Affairs. I would, however, like to say this: that so far nationalisation in France has not been a great success. It might not only be a great success in Germany, but it might be a very terrible success, because if there is an over-centralised Government, animated by the spirit which we all agree now exists, we might find that all we have done has been to create a greater concentration of power than has ever existed before. Believe me, Hitler's path would have been more eased if he had inherited nationalised industry. He even played with the idea himself. Not that I hold any brief for the German heavy industrialists—they have been evil men throughout my life—but they did occasionally grumble at what he did. For instance, they did not like the Hermann Goering works at all. I hope that what I have said to-day, on a preliminary reading of this vast document, will at least be borne in mind before the Government finally make up their minds. I shall be much happier if they at least have a "look see" before they decide.
I pass to another subject, and that is Italy. I have seen much in the Press lately about the intention of the Western Powers to invite Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Portugal and Eire to join the Western Union. I am particularly glad to see those Scandinavian invitations. I hope they will be accepted, and I hope they have some effect on the rather timorous and obstructive Swedes. But I have never seen any mention of an intention to invite Italy. I have seen in the Press some speculations as to why she should not be invited, and one was that she was not yet in a strong enough position. Well, whose fault is that? I would have thought that it was obvious to anyone from the start that under the Peace Treaty Italy was considerably over-disarmed. I said something to the effect at the time. Anyhow, be that as it may, the satellite States with whom we concluded Treaties at the same time have all broken those Treaties and are re-arming beyond the authorised strength. I know the Government can do nothing to stop that now, but I should

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have thought it was only common sense to allow to Italy a little corresponding latitude.
The point I want to put to your Lordships is this: Italy is not now in a strong enough position to cope at one and the same time with the Communist putsch inside and a Communist putsch across her north-eastern frontier. We have had a warning in this respect during the recent coal strike in France. The warning was not noticed. I never saw anything about it in the Press, and I heard no politician or statesman say anything about it. But if the Communists had then employed everywhere the same violence that they used at Saint Etienne, there would not have been enough force to go round. The position is much better now, so there is no indiscretion in mentioning it.
That is largely the position of Italy today, so I very much hope that the British, the United States and the French Governments may see their way to intimating to Italy that they will not object to any measures taken, within reason, to enable them to cope with their dual obligation. If the respective Governments feel too hound by formalities to convey any such information, I do not hesitate to say that I hope that the Italian Government will discreetly and reasonably improve their own position as required. Believe me, my Lords, it misses the point altogether to say, as Mr. R. A. Butler recently said during the Parliamentary tour in Italy, that he hoped Italy would make herself as strong as she could within the bounds of the Treaties. She cannot make herself strong enough like that; and the Western Democracies really cannot have it both ways. If they want Italy to be a valid member of Western Union they must not deny to her the means of becoming valid. I should hope that anything of that nature might be done with moderation, and I do not doubt that it would be; but we must not be too rigid, otherwise we shall always prevent these objects from being attained.
I come to another subject, on which it had not been my intention to speak, because it had already been eloquently dealt with by a number of previous speakers to-day, and that is the subject of Indonesia. But because of the speech that preceded mine, I decided to say a few words after all. Criticism of the Dutch has been exaggerated; it has been
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wild and unstatesmanlike—and it is an extremely funny way of trying to cement Western Union. We are engaged in a life and death struggle with Communism. Stalin has called it, in his own words, "a contest of catch-as-catch-can," and we shall be mad if we do not take him at his word. The Dutch have taken action against an unreliable and incompetent body of men permeated by fellow travellers and headed by a brace of quislings. Some people may not like that action; but I should have thought that it was at least comprehensible, in view of the landslide that has taken place in China. Believe me, my Lords, in a very little while indeed, civilisation is going to find itself confronted with one of the greatest perils it has ever faced, in view of the addition of another 500,000,000 of manpower to the Communist ranks. At any rate that is what it looks like now, and I should have thought that that might have been well understood.
Yet when the Dutch were arraigned in the United Nations it seemed to me that the British, French, and Belgians took a very cautious attitude. They seemed to me to be sitting on the fence. I understand their difficulties, but the fence is no place for me. The Americans took a real "header" into forthright and utter condemnation. It is perhaps not the first "header" they have taken but this form of aquatics does not seem to me very suitable in high policy. As for the Indians, Pandit Nehru is now calling a conference of censure and reprisal. In a short while, the Communist tide will be lapping at his India, and I should have thought that on any long view—and mark you, my Lords, short views may kill us, and will certainly kill him !—it was unwise to throw too many stones against people who are trying to dam that tide. But the worst exhibition of the whole lot was that of the Australian representative. He flapped and cackled that what the Dutch had done in Indonesia was worse than what Hitler had done to Holland. Such irresponsible "tripe" does no credit either to the speaker or to United Nations, whose credit is already sufficiently shaken. I think it quite likely that when he talked like that Colonel Hodson had an eye on the Australian dockers. But if democracy is to survive, it must stand up to its own extremists.

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Finally, I feel impelled to say a few words on Palestine. I cannot conscientiously go with the tide of facile criticism now running against the policy of the British Government in Palestine. That is a subject on which advice, admonition, and animadversion have been ceaseless since the beginning. And it is high time that we placed things into their proper perspective. If your Lordships will allow me, I shall be very frank. When Mr. Bevin first took office he was greeted with a wave of over-expectancy which ran not only ahead of performance but far ahead of any possible performance. Then, when it was seen that he was no miracle man able to bring down manna from heaven, the tide turned and began to run, just as unreasonably, in the other direction. The fact is that from the start His Majesty's Government—not only this Government but preceding Governments—had a well-nigh impossible task; that was well recognised by all of us from the first.
I remember well that when the Mandate was first given there was a contest as to whether it would be administered by Mr. Churchill in the Colonial Office or Lord Curzon at the Foreign Office; and I remember also my own relief, and that of all of us at the Foreign Office, when Mr. Churchill won, because we realised that the task would be an extremely thankless one, unless there was great moderation and good will and, above all, calm, not only in Palestine itself but among all the parties interested in the question outside. That moderation, good will, and calm have never fully existed. Therefore, while I have criticised the policy of the Government on other matters and shall have occasion to do so again, I have never criticised either this Government or any other Government for failure to settle the Palestine problem—any more than I have criticised them for failing to settle with Russia, which is another "impossible."
On the particular episode of the reconnaissance, it is possible to go on arguing for ages in one direction or another—and inconclusively. It is quite possible that this air reconnaissance was bungled from the purely technical point of view; I am no authority on that. On the other hand, it seems to be also quite possible that this most unhappy episode may
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have had some influence in preventing any further Israeli incursion into Egypt, and it may have had some influence in bringing the parties together in Rhodes at long last. In any case, there would have been no need for the reconnaissance at all if the Israelis had not arbitrarily prevented the use of observers by the United Nations. All this goes to show that this is one of those subjects which can so easily deteriorate into side issues and slanging matches.
A particular and continuous overdose of that slanging has come to us through the years from the United States, or at any rate from the less responsible Press there, and from the more irresponsible politician—who abounds. That abuse
has flowed to us, the founders and creators of Zionism, from people who, in our long arduous days, never did anything to facilitate our efforts. There is no
more staunch Americophile than myself. I know that the American people are endowed with great and exhilarating qualities. But in the provision of gifts and favours tossed into their cradle by Providence there was one slipped in by a malevolent fairy godmother, and that is one that sometimes goads even their best and warmest friends towards the desire of adding to those gifts one of home truth. That I shall resist this afternoon.
Let us by all means differ there or at home—difference is democracy—but do not let us quarrel, anyhow to this extent. I believe that we shall be both wiser and safer if we decline to generate quite so much heat, and if we resolutely refuse to have ourselves all set by the ears on any issue, however important (as this one is), but which yet in the whole scheme of things is still a minor issue. All the row and hullaballoo that has been going on for the last week or ten days in Western democracy is just what the Kremlin "doctors" ordered. They must think us great "suckers" at times—and at times we are. Now, Mr. Crossman will temporarily oust on the Soviet radio Molotov's regular "sweetie," Mr. Zilliacus, who figures there so often; and the new "prima donna" will have to take a number of Iron Curtain calls—I think a good many of them most reluctantly. All these rows and ructions are luxuries which we might well afford in time of peace, but we are not at peace, nor are we likely to be; and that is what we have all to remember, at all times and in all places. If we

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had all remembered that in the inter-war period, the history of the world would have been very different and, I think, far happier.
6.22 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, if the noble Viscount who initiated this debate is correct when he states that the United Nations has no locus standi in Indonesian affairs, then I suppose we ought not to be discussing it here, because it is an entirely domestic matter for the Netherlands Government. In support of that, I will at least remind your Lordships that on more than one occasion the Netherlands Government have expressed to the United Nations their willingness to refer the matter to the International Court of Justice; but that offer has not been accepted. I am bound to say that I was rather shaken by what the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, with his great experience, said, when he turned round and gave the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, a severe rap on the knuckles, and I began to consider what we really have to go on. Surely it is a fact that Dr. Soekarno was the man who, in the later stages of Japanese rule, proposed conscription to assist the Japanese.
Then there is Mohammed Hatta, one of the leading lights in the Japanese youth movement to which, I am sorry to say, very large numbers of horrible atrocities are attributed; and, if reports are true, they out-Belsen Belsen. I never can understand how the United Nations takes upon itself the setting-up of a court to try people in Germany for such offences, and is entirely blind or deaf to the occurrence of the same things in other parts of the world. If that belonged to the past only, one might well say that the Dutch Government, having entered into the Renville Truce Agreement with these very people, wiped that out. But when we find that the Republican Armed Forces themselves repudiated that Agreement, when we find that they not only gained control of their own Government by measures similar to those practised by Hitler, but also, by every kind of infiltration, started a period of murder and all sorts and kinds of outrage in Dutch territory, with a view to trying to set up a reign of terror, then I think we must not forget the past.
As usual, they accused their opponents—a technique which is an old one—of
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doing precisely what they were doing themselves. As your Lordships know, in addition to that they started in their own country, in their own area, systematic devastation of the crops and plantations, and when the Good Offices Committee tried to inspect what was being done there, they were not allowed access. I believe that there is proof and information that a large-scale intensification of this campaign was planned at the beginning of this year, and would have taken place had not the Dutch taken the initiative themselves and prevented it. In these circumstances, I could not help being surprised at the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, who said that he felt that the Dutch were wrong and that there was some method of conciliation through the Good Offices Committee—though he never suggested what it was. I submit that that kind of wringing your hands is bad in foreign policy. If you condemn a responsible Government like the Netherlands Government, it is at least your duty to suggest what effective measures might have been taken which they did not take.
The United Nations, which has been blind and deaf to everything that went before, has now poured the vials of its indignation upon the Dutch action. As I said, I do not think that they have any locus standi in the matter, but at least I think the Dutch might have been treated with more sympathy and more courtesy, because those of us who know anything about Colonial administration know that the Dutch have long had a record of which we ourselves might be proud. The only special treatment that the natives of the Dutch Indies received was what I remember very well—the exceptional care that the Dutch Government tried to take, when people from Holland went out to the Dutch Indies, in determining not to have the native population there exploited in Dutch interests or in the interests of anybody else. I think it is a very poor reward for a highly civilised nation with a record at least as high as its civilised neighbours—and in my opinion even higher—to be blackguarded and bullied at the behest of people whom I believe to be Japanese-inspired extremists. If they are not, I am ready to be answered. I hope that His Majesty's Government will dissociate themselves from anything of the kind,

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and that they will do their best to prevent the matter being carried any further in that way.
6.29 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, the position of a Lord Chancellor who gets up at the end of a Foreign Affairs debate which has ranged over great areas is not one to be envied. I am bound to tell your Lordships, however, that whether I am able to give you any satisfactory replies or not, I have no doubt the fact that your Lordships have made the speeches which you have made to-day has been of great advantage to the country. The noble Earl, Lord Perth, in the course of his speech, accused me of saying, on one occasion, that I was all in favour of a common policy being agreed to among all Parties, always provided that everybody should agree with Mr. Bevin. I feel that if I did say such a thing I probably dressed it up rather more than that. I think he rather stripped off the draperies, and presented us with, I will not say a perfect specimen of the nude, but a rather ungainly specimen.
But, of course, it is a fact that any Government must be responsible for adopting a particular foreign policy. If the Government can obtain the support
of the other Parties in the country, all well and good. But one cannot expect any Government, or any Foreign Secretary, to take a line which he does not think to be the right line or the appropriate line merely because it pleases the Opposition. Therefore, with that limitation, and putting on some drapery—which I am now trying to do—it is, broadly speaking, true that the Foreign Secretary must, with the concurrence of his colleagues in the Cabinet, be responsible for foreign policy, and we must take what decisions thereon we think right. Of course, any member of the Cabinet who does not agree has the constitutional right and duty to resign. That is the doctrine.
I would like to say here and now about Mr. Bevin, a colleague of mine, that in the last few years he has faced a most appalling and difficult series of situations, and he has met one problem after another with ingenuity and unfailing courage. It would be idle to pretend that in the course of the last three and a half
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years, in this, that or the other respect, mistakes have not been made. I have no particular mistake in mind, but I am perfectly certain that if we had not made mistakes, we should have made nothing at all. The situation is one of immense complexity and difficulty. It is very easy, looking back in the light of after events, for anyone to criticise the timing of this or the phrasing of that, or something of that sort. My Lords, the problem is one of the greatest possible complexity; and I stand here, speaking on his behalf, and say quite frankly that I have nothing to apologise for at all in the policy he has carried out.
Not only is it desirable to obtain, if we can, the agreement of all Parties in the country—I do not belittle that for one moment—but in view of the problems with which we are faced, it is obviously all to the good if we can speak as a united country. I feel that it has been rather lost sight of, that it is also very desirable to try to obtain the agreement of other countries with whom we are closely associated. It is very desirable for us to try to secure the agreement of the Western European countries; it is very desirable for us to obtain the agreement of the United States of America; and particularly is it desirable for us to obtain the agreement of our fellow members of the Commonwealth—that is particularly important, although I have left it to the last. The position of the Foreign Secretary, or of any Foreign Secretary, to-day must therefore not be judged by what any of your Lordships would do if you were sitting in a room and thinking out this or that problem for yourselves, without regard to what other people feel about it. In practice to-day one has to try to obtain the largest possible measure of common agreement amongst all the people concerned, and to secure that one may unfortunately, in this, that or the other respect, have to do something which differs slightly from what one would do if acting alone.
I have been dealing with general considerations, but there is one other consideration to which I should like to refer—namely, that of not making the mistake of viewing a particular problem in isolation. The noble Lord, Lord Milverton, in a very interesting and forceful speech, looked at Indonesia, but the noble Lord looked at it, as I venture to think, in isolation, and he looked at it

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rather without regard to events which have been happening all over the world. One cannot consider Indonesia unless one considers the general trend and movement of events in the whole of the Far East—in India, in Pakistan, in Ceylon, in Malaya and in Indonesia. Indonesia is merely one facet of a much wider and more general problem.
What I hope is nearly my last general conclusion is this. Lord Cecil referred (and I think with truth) to the fact that whereas the economic difficulties were perhaps getting rather less than they have been, the political difficulties still weighed us down. That, of course, is true, but one must always remember—if one is to be a realist—that economic problems cannot be isolated from political problems, or from defence problems. In foreign affairs one must cut one's coat according to one's cloth. One must consider all these problems as they act and react upon each other. The dangers with which we are confronted to-day must be considered from two points of view—first of all, from the material point of view of arms. To-day we must be strongly armed, and it is a lamentable thought that after the last war we in this country, in our impoverished condition, are now spending so much on armaments.
During the three years 1933–1935, the average expenditure on the Defence Services was £120,000,000 a year. The original Estimate—and I choose my words with some care—for the current year, including provision for the Defence expenditure of the Ministry of Supply, was nearly £700,000,000. Making all allowances for the changes in the value of money, we spent £120,000,000 when we were comparatively rich people; now the original Estimate for this year is nearly £700,000,000. I believe that we are right to do it, and I believe, in view of the difficulties and the dangers, that everybody thinks we are right to do it. But, my Lords, it is not enough to rely on mere physical force in order to combat Communism. I am firmly convinced you must show that you have a better idea than Communism which works; and I believe that a less material outlook (I think all your Lordships will agree) is just as important as the amount spent on armaments—indeed, it is more important.
What is this better idea? I can illustrate what I believe it is by the case of
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Indonesia. I have not a word to say against the Dutch Colonial administration; I believe it was exceedingly good, and the tributes which have been paid to it to-day by those who know seem to show that it was. But whether we like it or whether we do not, in the world to-day a Colonial administration, however good it may be, will not do. We are confronted with this upsurge of nationalism and one must provide for that feeling. I do not believe it is a bit of good saying, with regard to an Indonesian leader: "This man was a friend of the Japanese." Of course he was; but he regards himself as a fighter for liberation, and that is how he came to be in contact with the Japanese, whom he regarded as fighters for liberation.
And it really is impossible to compare this situation, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, did, with that in Malaya. What are the facts in the case of Malaya? A handful of armed bandits, mainly of alien stock, seek to terrorise the community. They are not even seeking, or claiming, to act in the interests of a genuine nationalist movement. But in Indonesia there is a nationalist movement. Whatever view we may take as to its authority, its unity or its coherence, it is there, and Indonesia raises issues of far-reaching significance which, failing settlement, may indeed affect world stability and world security. That is why it is that though, from one aspect and in one sense, I quite agree it is a question for the Dutch, yet directly it becomes a matter which concerns world peace it then comes within the purview of the United Nations. It was from the wider angle, having heard the opinion of the very competent advisers we had on the spot—I do not pretend, myself, to have any personal knowledge of the matter—that we regretted the fact that the Dutch had felt it necessary to resort, once more, to force. It is odd, when one thinks of it, how little, in the long run, force accomplishes. If one can possibly reach agreement it accomplishes so much more.
It seemed to me that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, sought to prove too much. "After all," he, in effect, said, "in this great area there is only a handful of people who are in any way competent to look after themselves, to govern themselves or anyone else." Let me remind your Lordships of the Dutch

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policy. Let me remind your Lordships what the representative of the Netherlands at the Security Council declared on January 14—that is only a few days ago. He said that a federal interim Government would be set up in Indonesia within one month, that elections would be held throughout Indonesia before October next, and he added that full facilities would be provided for observers to supervise these elections, if desired, and to watch events generally. Finally, he said that the United States of Indonesia is to be set up if possible by January 1, 1950, but that, in any case, the transfer of sovereignty will be accomplished in the course of 1950. That is the Dutch policy, and if one says that these people are all utterly incompetent, that one cannot have any dealing with them at all, that they are quislings and the like, then I ask, why should the Dutch themselves adopt this policy? It is because they realise, in the light of events which are happening throughout the world and in the Far East particularly, that that is the right policy to pursue.
I firmly hope that the Dutch will carry through that policy, and I know the Dutch people well enough to declare that if they say that they intend to do a thing they will carry it out. In the face of this declaration of the policy of the Dutch (in the carrying out of which the Good Offices Committee will give them all the assistance they can, and in which we shall do what we can to help), it seems to me to be idle to suggest that one can revert to a system of Colonial administration—admirable though it was and well suited though it was for those times—which no longer has any meaning whatever in view of the difficult problems with which we are now faced.
Now I come to the point which the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, raised, in regard to getting together and resisting aggression. While I am not in a position at the present moment to tell your Lordships anything about the Atlantic Pact, I do say that the wider and the more far-reaching the provisions of the Atlantic Pact are, the better I shall be pleased. So, I think, will the noble Viscount. But we must not look at these problems from too legalistic a point of view. We must be completely realist about them. Because I agree with the noble Viscount that peace
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is indivisible, I hope that we shall get people out of the frame of mind which leads them to think that some dispute which disturbs the peace is "so far away" I remember the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain saying that Czechoslovakia was "so far away." And I recall that at the time the majority of the people of this country agreed with the view that Czechoslovakia was far away, that we could hardly pronounce its name, and so on. Of course, that is a profoundly wrong point of view. Czechoslovakia, if it was being attacked and war was going to come, was as near to us as the "other place" is to where I am standing. Still, human nature being what it is, there is always a danger that people may run out if they are called upon to embark upon a war in respect of some country which, to their minds, is far away. It ought not to be so, but we are only being realistic if we recognise that it is so.
Therefore, I believe that the policy which we ought to adopt is a policy of regional pacts—regional pacts getting in as many people as we can. And I believe, for the reason which I have given, that that is the most practical way of approach. Of course, I realise that we may have to come to a form of pact completely outside the Charter. If we do (and it is quite possible) then the division of the world into two camps would be still further hardened. If we do, probably the Soviet Government would decide to leave the United Nations. But while there is life there is hope, and I would be very sorry to bring that about earlier than need be. We shall, therefore, regard ourselves for the time being as bound in this respect by the United Nations Charter, and we shall make our agreements for protection against aggression under Article 51, because there is no way, consistent with the Charter, in which we can do otherwise.
As regards the adequacy of a system based on Article 51, I would like to say this. Unless a system is put into operation by a series of individual small groups, you may have some State, as I have just said, running out. But if any State is contemplating aggression it is much less likely to commit it, if it knows that it would be faced by resolute resistance even from a relatively small group, than if it feels it may merely come up against a more widely flung but less closely knit community. I believe that is a very practical consideration which,

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in the present state of the world, we have to keep in mind. Though I am not prejudging what may have to happen, I believe that at the present time we can get all that effectively under the form of regional pacts, and I place great hopes and great reliance on the Atlantic Pact. Throughout the debate every speaker has stated that there are great dangers. Obviously, the world is confronted with the most frightful danger of tyranny unsurpassed, and I would like to add my word to something which the noble Earl, Lord Perth, said about the arrest of the Cardinal. All people, to whatever Church they belong, must view that sort of thing with horror, and we must all do whatever we can, if we can do anything, to help. I would like the Cardinal to know that we all feel with him and his co-religionists, because, after all, this is a matter of common liberty and the decencies of life.
I now come to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart. His remarks about the Basic Law will certainly be considered. At present the Basic Law is in a loose transitional state. In polishing it and putting it into a final form, we shall try to steer a course between two dangers. As the noble Lord knows, the Basic Law is subject to the approval of the Occupying Powers and if the dangers which he mentioned are real, then they will be guarded against. We are fully alive to the need for avoiding anything which would open the way or point the road to totalitarianism; but at the same time we must realise that in a modern State an excessive degree of decentralisation is impracticable and would inevitably lead to a breakdown. I think our policy in this matter must be this. We must have particular regard to the feelings of France, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg, because we can well understand that the experience they have gone through has left its mark upon them. On the other hand, I say most firmly that I do not believe it is to the interests of this country or of civilisation or of the world that Germany should be left discontented, unhappy and miserable. That is the very condition which would send her, too, into the Communist camp. I would beg your Lordships to realise this danger. All through the war we used to think of this problem and talk about it. We want a happy, prosperous and contented Germany, but a Germany who will
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not be a menace to her neighbours, and we shall never achieve that if we continue to treat her as a kind of pariah State. I feel that very strongly.
With regard to Italy, I agree very strongly with what the noble Lord said about the necessity of trying to bring Italy in with all the nations of Western Europe. The noble Lord said that mistakes had been made. Well, let bygones be bygones. Italy belongs to the group of civilised Western Nations and I have no doubt that Italy will once more play a distinguished part in the life of Western Europe. We have some very difficult problems to solve in the aftermath of the war. That is the worst of war; it leaves so many difficult problems to be cleared up. I can assure your Lordships that we shall approach the clearing up of these problems with the earnest desire to help Italy and to bring Italy in with us once more in the van of liberty and freedom.
I would like to say a word about a matter which has not yet been mentioned—namely, the problem of Greece. The United Nations General Assembly passed on November 27, 1948, a resolution endorsing the Reports of the Special Committee on the Balkans, and especially their conclusion that the Greek guerrillas had been receiving aid on a large scale from Albania, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. That is merely another illustration of the sort of danger which your Lordships have been pointing out. In Greece, the Communist minority continue a ruthless sabotage of civilised life and government. At widely separated points, in Northern and in Central Greece, the guerrillas have raided and sacked isolated towns and villages. Only last week they occupied Naoussa in Macedonia, where, in addition to burning and looting generally, they caused widespread damage to the important textile mills there. Refugees from these areas still crowd the towns.
It is in this very difficult circumstance that, in response to an appeal from the King of Greece, all political Parties have combined to co-operate in a broadly based Government under the veteran leader, M. Sophoulis. I think it would be fitting that I should express our earnest hope that he may have success in dealing with the frightful problems which confront him, and that he may remember that this problem, though it

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requires firmness, will never be solved by the suppression of liberty. M. Sophoulis has to do those two difficult things—to be firm in restoring law and order, which is the basis of civilisation, and at the same time see that the Greek people have an opportunity of working out their own destiny in their own way, as free people and not as the subjects of any dictatorship. I know that I speak for all your Lordships when I say that we wish him Godspeed in his very difficult task.
My Lords, I have not attempted to conceal the difficulties. I do not think I ever have. The economic difficulties are still very grave, and the political difficulties are no less grave. The events that have happened in China will perhaps be regarded by historians a few centuries hence as some of the most significant that have ever taken place in the history of the world. All that this country can do is to try to be strong and ready to rally round it like-minded people, to play its full part in defence of its way of life, to encourage Europe in its ideals of freedom and democracy, and to encourage the new nations in the Far East which are springing into birth to realise that if they stand by democracy their destiny will be a happy one.
7.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I feel that we would all agree, whatever views may have been expressed, that this debate has been well worth while, and that the Lord Chancellor has wound it up with a characteristically able speech. I am not going to inflict another speech on the House, otherwise I would be tempted to follow him in the very odd explanation he gave about Indonesia. I would only say this. If his argument is sound, that criminal collaborators with the Japanese in Java are to be regarded as persons who so acted in the cause of freedom, then that is an excuse which any quisling in Europe would have been able to plead for his collaboration with Hitler.
There is one subject on which I must say a word or two, because it is of paramount importance. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, for a very kind reference to me at the beginning of his speech. If I was not too old to blush, I should be blushing now. I am also
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grateful to the noble Lord for the full account which he gave about the unhappy incidents with regard to the Air Force reconnaissance. He gave us an absolutely accurate and unvarnished account, and concealed nothing from us. That was characteristic of him. But I am bound to say that the explanation which he gave was a most complete condemnation of the enterprise. There was no answer to my question: Why, if the reconnaissance was to be made at all, did we not propose that we should do it as the agents of U.N.O.?
As the story unfolded itself it was really more strange, almost more incomprehensible, than I had at first supposed. Why on earth did we send out a few fighters of our own in company with Egyptian fighters, unless we were asking for trouble? I really cannot understand that. Why did we go on with these reconnaissances day after day? I think there were seven of them, and certainly there were six. One I could understand: but why go on day after day sending out these fighters until, one might almost say, the inevitable happened and the clash came? The last two fatal reconnaissances seem to be the least explicable of all, because those two reconnaissances, in both of which our aircraft were shot down, were sent out, so far as I could follow from the dates, long after we knew that the Jews had been across the Egyptian border, and were within a few hours of the cease fire. If that is the fact, it really passes my understanding.
Then there is the story the noble Lord told us of how the attack came. Could there be a more complete justification of what I said at the beginning of the debate, that we had no business at all to send out fighters with orders that they were not to fight unless attacked? It was all over in a second. It is a most unhappy story. It ought not to have happened. I am still not clear as to on whose orders the reconnaissances were made. I am quite clear about this: the Air Force—indeed, any of the three Services—will never question or hesitate to obey an order which is given them, however hazardous the carrying out of that order may be. That is right. But when an order so wrong is sought to be given, then I say it is the duty of the Secretary of State for Air to say: "That is not an order which should be given to the Service for which I am respon-

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sible." I say no more. I felt that I could not say less. I think this has been a most unhappy occurrence, and I pray God that such an episode will not occur again. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

RAILWAY AND CANAL COMMISSION (ABOLITION) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with an Amendment, the said Amendment to be printed.
CINEMATOGRAPH FILM PRODUCTION (SPECIAL LOANS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
SAVINGS BANKS BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL [H.L.]
HARWICH HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
HURST PARK RACE COURSE BILL [H.L.]
MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL [H.L.]
RHODESIA RAILWAYS LIMITED (PENSION SCHEMES AND CONTRACTS) BILL [H.L.]
SLOUGH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
STAFFORDSHIRE POTTERIES WATER BOARD BILL [H.L.]
WANDSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
Presented, and read 1a.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS
The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order. Leave given to the Joint Committee to report from time to time.
House adjourned at ten minutes past seven o'clock.