Sitting of 5 April 1949

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  PEOPLE'S DISPENSARY FOR SICK ANIMALS BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
CLYDE NAVIGATION (SUPERANNUATION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Clyde Navigation (Superannuation) (to be proceeded with under Section 7 of the Act),"presented by Mr. Woodburn; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 108.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Analgesia
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he considers that, in addition to gas and air, the trilene apparatus for analgesia is now suitable; and if it is available for issue.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Woodburn): Expert medical opinion is not yet agreed on the unsupervised use by midwives of any existing trilene apparatus. The Medical Research Council have decided to set up a Committee to investigate the problem.
    Colonel Hutchison: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the meantime, certain local authorities are not using gas and oxygen, alternatively, as they are in doubt whether they should wait for the arrival of trilene or not, and that the result is that there is no analgesia being given? Will he put that right?
    Mr. Woodburn: It is the duty of the local authorities, and they are all doing
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    their best in this matter. I can quite understand their hope that this much simpler apparatus will be approved.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Minnit form of analgesia is highly unpopular, and that many mothers reject it? Does he think that he should take powers to force trilene to be used by midwives when the medical profession definitely agrees that it is dangerous to mothers who may be suffering from hyper-tension or heart trouble?
    Mr. Woodburn: I quite agree that it would be quite improper on my part to force any of these things on any mother who did not want them. One of the difficulties about training is that, in some of the hospitals, many of the mothers refuse to have any of this apparatus. On the other hand, the Central Midwives Council and the Medical Research Council are investigating this problem.
    Commander Galbraith: In view of the supplementary question of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison), will the right hon. Gentleman see that the report is forthcoming as early as possible?
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland by what date will all practising midwives be trained in the use of analgesia.
    Mr. Woodburn: I hope that by the end of 1950 over three-quarters of the midwives then practising in Scotland will have been trained and my aim is to have the process substantially complete by the end of 1951.
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether all local authorities in Scotland are carrying out schemes to provide analgesia and transport to every confinement in their areas.
    Mr. Woodburn: Every local authority in Scotland is operating under approved statutory proposals which require them to secure, as soon as possible, that their domiciliary midwives are suitably trained, and are provided with the necessary apparatus, drugs, and transport, to provide a full analgesia service for women confined in their own homes.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Will the Secretary of State ensure that in Scotland local

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    authorities will have these new forms of apparatus when available, and in the meantime will he press forward with the provision of the Minnit apparatus, unsatisfactory though it is?
    Mr. Woodburn: I have been encouraging them so to do, and I understand that they are doing it; but I quite understand the reluctance to purchase and employ this much more cumbrous apparatus if there is a possibility at an early date of having a simpler apparatus available.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Referring to the original answer, is that not just another example of Scotland giving a lead to England?
    Mrs. Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the mothers of Scotland are well satisfied with the 1937 Maternity Services Act, which provides for a doctor and an anaesthetist, and that this Act is in operation in many parts of Scotland. Is he further aware that the medical officer of health for Aberdeenshire, which some hon. Members opposite represent, completely repudiates what he calls "ill-informed, ignorant criticism on the part of politicians" in this matter?
    Mr. Woodburn: I think that this is a matter where we should distinguish between cases where a doctor is present, who can use any apparatus which is proper for the purpose, and cases where only midwives are present, which are the cases under review.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the Secretary of State aware that the hon. Lady is somewhat misinformed on this matter, and is he also aware that in parts of Scotland it is quite impossible to provide a doctor for every confinement? It is in those areas that we seek to provide trained midwives equipped with proper analgesic apparatus.

    Mathematics and Science Teachers
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the causes of the shortage of teachers of mathematics and science in Scotland.
    Mr. Woodburn: The causes are complex, but one important element is that there have been greatly increased numbers of such qualified persons required by industry in recent years and that the
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    numbers trained have fallen short of the present opportunities of employment open to them.
    Mr. MacPherson: Does my right hon. Friend hold out any hope of a cessation of any of the causes?
    Mr. Woodburn: We hope that industry will not want fewer scientific people, and we are hopeful that more scientific people will be trained.

    Aluminium Houses, Leven
    Mr. HendersonStewart asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he has taken, in pursuance of his undertaking to the hon. Member for East Fife, to make immediate inquiries into the unsatisfactory conditions of the aluminium houses in Leven and the ill effects of damp upon the health of the tenants as confirmed by the medical officer of health.
    Mr. Woodburn: I regret that there was some delay in arranging a local inspection of these houses. A joint inspection by representatives of the Department of Health, Ministry of Supply and the Town Council took place yesterday and I will write to the hon. Member immediately I receive the report.
    Mr. Stewart: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it has taken five weeks, since the assurance was given to me that an immediate inquiry would take place? Will he bear in mind that the local medical officer of health has condemned these houses as unfit for human occupation?
    Mr. Woodburn: First of all, the responsibility is that of the local authority. My Department are very anxious to help, but we had to bring in another Department of the Government responsible for the supply of these houses. I have no doubt they can be put right. We had some of this trouble about two years ago. It was all put right. The Departments have scientific knowledge, and I think it would be wrong to condemn the houses.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Officers (Service Dress)
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Secretary of State for War on what occasions his regulations prescribe that service dress is to be worn by officers.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell): Service dress is obsolescent except for officers of the rank of colonel and above, and officers of horsed units. For the latter, service dress is the normal dress for mounted parades. Colonels and above are allowed to wear service dress on occasions when not on parade with troops wearing other types of uniform. No other officers are now allowed to buy service dress, but those who still have it may wear it on various occasions.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there are any exceptions to these regulations covering dress in the Army?
    Mr. Shinwell: There are regulations.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Are there any exceptions to these regulations?
    Mr. Shinwell: Of course, all regulations are subject to certain exceptions.

    Officers' War Service, Burma
    Mr. Mott-Radclyffeasked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of British officers serving in Burma at the outbreak of the Japanese War; and how many of these officers were accompanied by their wives and families.
    Mr. Shinwell: Approximately 320 officers of the British Army were serving in Burma at the end of 1941. Information is not available as to how many were accompanied by their wives and families.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Does this include officers seconded for service under the Burmese Government, and if it does will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Foreign Office to see that they get compensation for their property which was destroyed?
    Mr. Shinwell: I think that that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.
    Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why only 75 out of the 300 have made application for compensation for the loss of personal effects?
    Mr. Shinwell: There is nothing in the Question about compensation, but if a Question is put down on that subject I will try to answer it.

    Troopships (Medical Officers)
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Secretary of State for War whether medical officers are carried on all troopships, including those from the Continent to Harwich.
    Mr. Shinwell: No medical officer is provided, in peace-time, on cross-Channel voyages. A nursing orderly travels on cross-Channel ships to render first-aid only. On all other troopships a senior medical officer is provided.
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Secretary of State for War whether there was a medical officer on the staff of the s.s. "Vienna" on 8th February, 1949.
    Mr. Shinwell: No.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very distressing case of the 16-year-old band boy who was coming home on leave from Austria and died within a few hours of reaching his home, who in his dying statement said that he had reported to the medical officer on this ship and been told to wait till he got home; would my right hon. Friend appeal to anybody, officer or other rank, who saw this boy on this vessel to come forward so that the matter can be investigated further?
    Mr. Shinwell: I regret this incident, but in fact the band boy did not report sick before leaving his unit; neither did he report to the medical orderly on the troopship or at Harwich. In fact, there was no medical man on the ship, so far as I am aware—certainly not officially.
    Mr. Chetwynd: But in view of that, would my right hon. Friend—
    Mr. Speaker: The Question only asks whether there was a medical officer on board, and has nothing to do with the boy.

    Staff Officers (Visits to U.S.A.)
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for War how many General Staff officers made official visits to the United States of America during 1948; and how many of these officers were of the rank of brigadier and above.
    Mr. Shinwell: During 1948, 13 general staff officers from the War Office made official visits to the United States of America. Seven were of the rank of brigadier or above.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this rather expensive traffic will cease now that we are officially a satellite of the United States of America?
    Mr. Speaker: The Question refers to how many visits were made and not to any consequences of those visits.
    Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in Order to refer to other countries in Eastern Europe as being satellites? If that is in Order, why is it not in Order to refer to this country as being a satellite?
    Mr. Platts-Mills: As I understand your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, there was no objection to the form or content of my supplementary question, except as against the background of the first Question. If that were your Ruling is it not permissible for me to ask something that naturally follows from the Question?
    Mr. Speaker: In supplementary questions one must not make imputations or inferences; that is laid down. The hon. Gentleman made a distinct inference in his supplementary question.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Although hon. Gentlemen opposite wriggle with vexation when one challenges the betrayal of our country, am I to understand, with great respect to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, that when I point out what everyone in the country can see, that there is the most abject surrender of Britain—
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must not pursue that matter any longer.

    Rations
    Mrs. Florence Patonasked the Secretary of State for War how many complaints he has received stating that the men serving in the Army do not get enough nutritious food; and whether he is satisfied with the quality and quantity of food supplies.
    Mr. Shinwell: Although it is not possible to give the exact number of complaints received, they do not, for both Home and Overseas Commands, amount to more than two or three a week. In any case the majority of complaints refer to deficiencies in catering arrangements in particular units, rather than to any inadequacy of the Army ration, and are
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    of a minor character. I am satisfied that the food provided for the troops is of good quality.
    As regards quantity, my Department, together with the other Service Departments, is in constant touch with the Ministry of Food. During the present difficult food situation the object is to ensure that the ration scales provide a diet for the soldier equivalent to that available to civilians who are engaged in comparable work.
    Mrs. Paton: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the resolution passed recently at a women's conference and given great publicity in the Press declaring that the insufficiency of the food supply is endangering the health and stamina of our men, especially those doing outdoor work? Will he give an assurance that he will take up any specific case where evidence is brought of this so that he can take action?
    Mr. Shinwell: I saw the resolution referred to by my hon. Friend, and it is quite inconsistent with the facts. As regards specific complaints, I shall, of course, deal with them when they come along.
    Earl Winterton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of the complaints refer not so much to the quantity of the food as to the manner in which it is cooked, and will he consider appointing some suitable staff officer with a knowledge of this matter who will pay surprise visits to units to see that the catering arrangements are properly carried out?
    Mr. Shinwell: I do not think that surprise visits are required. Generally speaking, the cooking arrangements are excellent. There are occasional units where perhaps it is not as good as it might be. We are having all these matters attended to.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a serious glut of oatmeal in Scotland and would it not be an excellent and nutritious dish for these soldiers?
    Mr. Shinwell: As the hon. and gallant Gentleman is aware, oatmeal is not everybody's cup of tea.
    Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for War if he is satisfied that an

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    adequate supper is now provided each evening for all young soldiers serving in basic training units.
    Mr. Shinwell: The soldier is entitled to all his meals at public expense, including supper every night if he wants it. An instruction has recently been issued reminding unit commanders of their responsibility in this matter. So far as I am aware, units, including training units, are serving supper every night to those who require it.
    Mr. Hurd: Could the Minister say what is the substance of the adequate supper that is now provided for these boys in basic training units?
    Mr. Shinwell: Well, I could hardly be expected to recite the menu unless I got notice of the question.

    South Downs (Requisitioned Areas)
    Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the anxiety of those who live in the area of the South Downs, due to the fact that barbed wire, much of it concealed, slit trenches, many of them overgrown, and unexploded shells are still interfering with public amenities and right of access to the South Downs area; how many men are employed on restoring the Downs to their pre-war condition; and by when such work will be fully completed.
    Mr. Shinwell: If there is any anxiety among those who live in the district I am not aware of it, and I would point out that the public has no access to the areas which have not been derequisitioned. Fifty civilians are employed under military supervision on clearing unexploded missiles; restoration is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friends the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Works.
    Major Beamish: Does not the Secretary of State for War appreciate that the fact I have put this Question down and written to his Department on numerous occasions, as have all other Sussex Members, is the answer to what he has just said; is he aware that there is grave anxiety in Sussex, and that the fact that the public are not allowed into derequisitioned areas is one of their chief causes of complaint?
    Mr. William Teeling: The right hon. Gentleman having said that the local inhabitants were not saying anything about it, might I ask if he is aware that the tourists and people who come down to that part of the country are in a particularly difficult position because they know nothing about the problem?
    Mr. Shinwell: On the other hand, the public have no access to these areas, which have not yet been derequisitioned.
    Major Beamish: Why have these areas not been derequisitioned, if they are not wanted?
    Mr. Shinwell: For the reason that we have been unable to clear away these unexploded missiles and barbed wire entanglements, because there has been great difficulty as regards available labour for this purpose. We shall remove these encumbrances as rapidly as circumstances permit.
    Earl Winterton: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while of course the public have never had legal access to these areas they have had actual access to places in which people may walk; and that as long as the present situation continues it does much to create bad feeling, which does harm to the whole cause of the War Office?
    Mr. Shinwell: As the noble Lord is well aware, it was necessary to requisition this and other land during the war. We are anxious to derequisition as rapidly as possible, but when we do derequisition the question of restoration is not a matter for my Department.
    Major Beamish: Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there are only a dozen or two men in the whole South Downs area employed on this work of restoring the Downs to their normal condition; and cannot he take much more active steps to do something more about it?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am receiving the same demands from all over the country, and I simply have not the labour available. I will expedite this matter as much as I can.
    Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for War what acreage of the South Downs is still requisitioned for military purposes; by when the whole area

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    will have been derequisitioned; and what acreage of the South Downs has been made available to the East or West Sussex Agricultural Committees, respectively, for restoration pending derequisitioning.
    Mr. Shinwell: Of 32,313 acres originally requisitioned in the South Downs Training Area, only 11,918 are now under requisition. The whole of this area has been made available for restoration, 5,323 acres to the East Sussex Agricultural Committee and 6,595 to the West Sussex Agricultural Committee. Derequisitioning depends on the rate of progress of restoration, and areas are derequisitioned as and when they are restored.

    Vehicles, Malaya
    Colonel Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is satisfied that the vehicles used by the Forces in Malaya are suitable for the type of work which the Forces are called upon to carry out.
    Mr. Shinwell: The vehicles in use by the Army in Malaya have been chosen as the most suitable for the work.
    Colonel Hutchison: In view of the ambush which took place recently involving what seemed like an unsuitable vehicle, and in view of the general disquiet on the matter of equipment and training throughout the country, will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement at the earliest opportunity?
    Mr. Shinwell: There is no need for any disquiet about either equipment or the training of troops in Malaya. That is all right. There are other difficulties that are encountered and have to be overcome. As regards the armoured cars which were sent to Malaya, so far as I am aware there has been no complaint whatever from the people on the spot.

  TERRITORIAL ARMY (WAR MEDALS)
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffeasked the Secretary of State for War for what reason Territorial Army personnel taking part in recruiting demonstrations with their units are not allowed to wear war medals on these occasions.
  Mr. Shinwell: A new instruction about the wearing of medals is to be published in the course of the next month or two which will require medals to be worn on ceremonial parades. At present it is necessary to obtain special permission to wear medals; this permission has been given freely and on a number of occasions which might be regarded as recruiting demonstrations.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that from the recruiting point of view it is desirable that those who have served in the last war or the 1914–18 war should wear their medals in order to add a little colour to what is in fact a recruiting display?
  Mr. Shinwell: I am fully in sympathy with the hon. Gentleman in this matter and that is why I have said that a new instruction will shortly be published.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Deserted Wives (Payments)
    Mrs. Jean Mannasked the Minister of National Insurance the amount paid to the wives and children of husbands in desertion during 1946, 1947 and 1948 respectively; and what amounts have been recovered.
    The Minister of National Insurance (Mr. James Griffiths): I regret the information required is not available.
    Mrs. Mann: Is my right hon. Friend really informing the House that the country is willing to pay out these amounts to the deserted wives without even taking up any accounts?
    Mr. Griffiths: No. My hon. Friend asked about the amount paid in 1946, 1947 and 1948, but the Assistance Board has been responsible for assistance generally only since 5th July of last year. We have no figures about the earlier years, and we shall not have figures about this year until some time later.

    Disablement Benefit Case, Brighton
    Mr. William Teelingasked the Minister of National Insurance why Mr. Ronald Taylor of 88, Coleman Street, Brighton, has had to wait over eight months since his accident for a decision concerning his disablement benefit.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: If the hon. Member is implying that Mr. Ronald Taylor had to wait eight months for his industrial injury benefits I think he is under a misapprehension. Injury benefit was paid to Mr. Taylor from the date of the accident up to 9th February, when he became eligible for disablement benefit. I regret that, owing to some delay over the report of the medical board, disablement benefit was not actually paid until 30th March, but in the meantime Mr. Taylor received sickness benefit.
    Mr. Teeling: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this disablement benefit has only just been paid, after I put down the Question, and that Mr. Taylor has been asking for it for quite a long time and been told to wait and abide his time; is he further aware that there are many similar cases at the present time all over the country; and can something be done to hurry these matters up?
    Mr. Griffiths: As I pointed out to the hon. Member, he is under a misapprehension. The disablement benefit does not become payable under the Act until the man has been disabled and received injury benefit for six months. There has been some delay in this case due to the fact that the medical board felt it desirable in the man's own interests, to have a further examination and report. It is not always in the man's interests to try to hurry up matters, when perhaps a further X-ray will be to his advantage.

    Benefit (Local Authority Members)
    Mrs. Maimasked the Minister of National Insurance what instructions are issued to employment exchanges with regard to granting or refusing benefit to applicants who may be members of local authorities on the grounds that they are not available for work.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I have no power to issue instructions as to the manner in which the statutory conditions for benefit are to be applied either generally or in particular cases. It is for the independent statutory authorities to interpret these conditions with such guidance as may be derived from principles laid down in previous cases.
    Mrs. Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Scotland there are councillors who are sometimes our of em-
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    ployment who are being refused benefit at the employment exchanges because it is said they are not available for employment, even in areas where the council meetings are held at night?
    Mr. Griffiths: I understand that in two cases the payment of unemployment benefit on certain days has been varied, and that they have made an appeal. The cases are shortly to come before the tribunal, and it would be quite wrong of me to comment while the cases are awaiting hearing.

    Maternity Grants
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of National Insurance if, in view of the expense of maintaining a large family of growing children, he will consider making some special provision, additional to family allowances, in cases in which more than three children are born at one birth.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: We already pay a maternity grant of £16 where there are four children at a birth, and the family will be immediately eligible for family allowances. I do not know what further provision my hon. Friend thinks could appropriately be made under the schemes administered by my Department.
    Mr. Driberg: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, in these extremely rare cases, parents often find themselves under an economic necessity to sign contracts with film companies and other outside bodies for the exploitation of their young children, as in the case of the christening and the disgraceful scenes which attended it at a church last week; and, in view of the harm that can result to the children, would he consider this suggestion sympathetically?
    Mr. Griffiths: We have tried to cover, so far as is possible, these kinds of cases in the Act. Perhaps I should point out to my hon. Friend that if this birth had taken place before 5th July last the amount of maternity benefit would have been £2, whereas it is now £16.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Foreign Domestic Workers
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in spite of the announcement made over two

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    years ago that the issue of permits for foreign domestic workers for private households would no longer be subject to restrictions based on the type of household and the number of staff already employed, questions on these points are still being put to housewives; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): Such questions do not appear on the forms of application for permits to bring foreign domestic workers from abroad printed since March, 1947. For reasons of economy stocks of the earlier form were not withdrawn, but where they are still in use replies to these questions are ignored in deciding the application. Instructions are being issued to local offices to cancel these questions on any copies of the earlier form brought into use.

    Swindon
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Minister of Labour what arrangements exist for finding employment for railway and other employees at Swindon declared redundant; and how far in advance of the date of discharge steps are taken.
    Mr. Isaacs: The Employment Exchange Service is specially designed to meet the needs of redundant workers. Nothing is known of any appreciable redundancies in Swindon. My local officer, however, is in close touch with all employers who are invited to arrange to register the workers in advance of discharge giving as long notice as possible. There should be no difficulty in absorbing redundant workers in Swindon.
    Mr. Reid: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply will relieve a great many anxieties, and might I ask him how many workers in Swindon have been discharged recently?
    Mr. Isaacs: If my right hon. Friend is referring to the British Railways there, they gave notice to the employment officer a week or so ago of their intention to dismiss 20 men and gave dates of the dismissals. Since then they have absorbed all those men in another department and no one has, in fact, been dismissed.

  ARMED FORCES (PAY AND CONDITIONS)
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint an all-party committee to report on pay and conditions in the three Fighting Services and make recommendations thereon.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave to my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) in answer to a Question on Thursday, 31st March, 1949.
  Mr. Lipson: Why does the Prime Minister object to this proposal in view of the fact that the pay of doctors, teachers, police officers and others has been considered by outside bodies?
  Mr. Morrison: But this proposal is to appoint an all-party committee which presumably would be in the nature of a Select Committee, and we took the view that that would be contrary to good Parliamentary doctrine, whereby the initiative for public expenditure should rest with the Executive of the day.
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: If the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to accept this particular suggestion, are the Government using some other means to inquire into the situation, which, as revealed in recent Debates, was considered unsatisfactory on all sides of the House.
  Mr. Morrison: As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, we are frequently looking into these matters, but there are a variety of matters to take into account relative to it and it is thought that that is best done by the Government of the day.
  Mr. Stanley: But is it being done?
  Mr. Morrison: It is always being done, but if the right hon. Gentleman thinks that the Government can be pressed every week to increase expenditure he might remember that the taxpayer has to be considered as well.
  Mr. Lipson: Reverting to the original answer, have not the Government departed from this principle in the instances which I gave?
  Mr. Morrison: No, Sir, because the principle the hon. Gentleman is laying down is that a recommendation as to public expenditure should be made by a Select Committee of Parliament, and that, with great respect, I do not think is a good principle.

  PUBLIC WORKS SCHEMES (REVIEW)
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Lord President of the Council if, in view of the urgent necessity for concentrating the maximum effort on export trade and in view of the acute housing shortage, he will review works proposed or in progress, such as the Festival of Britain site and Cultural Centre, and postpone them until such time as the economic conditions of the country improve.
  Mr. H. Morrison: No, Sir. As regards housing I would refer the hon. Member to the reply made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the 1st November, 1948. As regards the export drive, I hope and expect that the Festival of Britain will itself contribute indirectly to the export drive by attracting to this country a very large number of visitors, and by improving the standard of design industrial products which may be included in Festival exhibitions.
  Sir W. Smithers: Is it not a fact that owing to the maladministration of this Government we are compelled to live on borrowed money? Does a bankrupt family buy a new piano or live on champagne and oysters, and why should America go on giving us dollars to pour down the Socialist drain?
  Mr. Morrison: That question is so full of—
  Sir W. Smithers: Truth.
  Mr. Morrison: —propaganda, inaccuracies and sheer misrepresentation that it defies reply. The hon. Member had better put it on the Paper, if he can.
  Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: In view of my right hon. Friend's original reply, will he reconsider the scheme, which he has studied, for making the grounds of Chiswick House a site for the Festival of Britain, in view of the very modest expenditure and labour involved and of the substantial financial return which this scheme might yield?
  Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend is proving himself to be a worthier Member for Brentford and Chiswick than the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) is for Orpington.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Institute of Public Administration (Grant)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds the Institute of Public Administration was selected for a grant of £6,000 for each of the three years; and how far he intends to make similar grants to similar organisations which also recruit their members from, and take an interest in, the organisation of public services, such as the Institute of Personnel Management, the Institute of Works Managers, the Office Management Association, the Industrial Welfare Society and others.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps): The grant-in-aid is a temporary subvention towards the general purposes of the Institute of Public Administration. Its purpose is to help to tide over the difficulties of an Institute towards which the Government feels itself under special obligation because of the contribution it makes, by bringing together those in central Government with those engaged in other forms of public service, to the study and improvement of the practice of public administration. The Government has not the same direct obligation to the other bodies mentioned, which cater for a wider field, including industry and commerce. I ought in fairness to those bodies to add that I am not aware that any Government grant has been sought or suggested by them.
    Mr. Cooper: Could my right hon. and learned Friend say why a similar subvention should not be made to other societies who have a similar interest in management in public affairs, and would he give consideration to any applications made by similar organisations referred to in the Question? Is not the British Institute of Management the real Government-sponsored organisation for dealing with such matters as are now referred to the Institute of Public Administration?
    Sir S. Cripps: As my hon. Friend knows, it has stated that it is not able

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    to deal with public administration, because it is concentrating, in the first instance, on industrial matters and, therefore, in the meantime it is desirable that we should give this assistance.
    Mr. Mikardo: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that this body is doing extremely valuable work and giving very good value for its subvention by contrast with some other bodies, like the British Institute of Management, which gets much more public money and gives much less value for it.

    Used Postage Stamps
    Sir John Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps a resident in the United Kingdom is required by His Majesty's Customs and Excise to take before despatching to a foreign country a used postage stamp; and if he will explain the reason and the authority for such requirements.
    Sir S. Cripps: The sending of used postage stamps except under licence to any destination outside the Scheduled Territories is prohibited unless the stamps are included in a package sealed and despatched by or on behalf of the Board of Trade. The British Philatelic Association has been deputed by the Board of Trade to act on its behalf and stamps sent to such a destination must go via that Association. The authority for this system is the Export of Goods (Control) (Consolidation) Order, 1948, and its object is to ensure a fair return for our exports of stamps.
    Sir J. Mellor: If a licence is necessary for this, would it not save a lot of trouble if the Commissioners of Customs and Excise issued it instead of the Board of Trade?
    Sir S. Cripps: It does not involve the Board of Trade. As the hon. Gentleman will see, it has been deputed to the association which deals particularly with stamps, which is much the most convenient body.

    Trust Beneficiaries (Tax)
    Mr. Gerald Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why trustees' and accountants' fees are not allowed as expenses against the income of a trust, thus causing beneficiaries to pay tax on income they never receive; and if he will remedy the position.
    Sir S. Cripps: It has been decided by the courts that a beneficiary's income from a trust for the purposes of a claim to repayment of Income Tax is his share of the income of the trust remaining after deduction of the expenses of management. I see no ground for changing the law.
    Mr. Williams: Will the Chancellor say why he allows the agents' fees for the collection of rents to be charged as expenses against Income Tax, and yet will not allow accountants' fees for the collection of dividends?
    Sir S. Cripps: This is a question of the beneficiaries. The charge of accountants' fees is probably a charge on the trustees and not on the beneficiaries.

    Post-war Credits
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now introduce legislation to enable him to repay Income Tax credits to men 60 years of age and to women 55 years of age in view of the hardship caused by non-receipt.
    Sir S. Cripps: I cannot anticipate my Budget Statement.
    Mr. Lipson: While not wishing to embarrass the right hon. and learned Gentleman, will he say that before he gives his final approval to his Budget proposals he will make sure that this is included?
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also consider the widow whose husband died a very short time before he was due to draw postwar credits? There are many such cases.

    Trophies (Taxation)
    Mr. Norman Bowerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Customs Duty and Purchase Tax are charged on trophies won in sporting events by British subjects abroad and brought back to this country.
    Sir S. Cripps: There is a statutory exemption for trophies shown to the satisfaction of the Customs to have been awarded abroad for distinction in certain fields, including sport.
    Mr. Bower: If I send to the Chancellor particulars of any cases of this sort in which duty and Purchase Tax have been charged will the money be refunded?
    Sir S. Cripps: I will certainly look into the cases.

    Anglo-Egyptian Agreement
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how the concessions made under the Anglo-Egyptian Financial Agreement, 1949, compares with those of the agreement of 1948; and for what reason His Majesty's Government did not see fit to press that as a condition for the conclusion of the present agreement Egyptian sterling balances should be scaled down to an equitable figure.
    Sir S. Cripps: The 1948 Financial Agreement provided for releases of £21 million "straight" and £11 million as an addition to Egypt's working balance, making immediate releases of £32 million in all. This year's Agreement provided for an immediate straight release of £12 million and additional releases up to £18 million will be made, in amounts of £3 million, but only if and when required in order to maintain Egypt's No. 1 Account balances at £45 million. The provision of dollars this year is the equivalent of £5 million against £61 million in 1948. As regards the second part of the Question, the reason was that this is a short-term agreement. His Majesty's Government have made plain to the Egyptian Government their views regarding the adjustment of these sterling balances and have reserved their position.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: The Chancellor says that this is a short-term agreement, but is it not yet another series of such agreements each of which has resulted in further grants by this country to Egypt? Is he further aware that of an anticipated trade balance of £47 million between Egypt and this country no less than two-thirds will be provided by credit from this country and that that, therefore, will result in an unrequited export?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am quite aware of the circumstances of the agreement, which I consider wholly satisfactory.

    Eastern Europe (Sterling)
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the quantities of sterling made available to Eastern European countries in 1946, 1947 and 1948 respectively; and of the quantities so made available how much was transferable sterling.
    Sir S. Cripps: Sterling held by these countries or acquired in the course of trade is and has been available for expenditure within the Sterling Area, with the exception of funds remaining under the control of the Custodian of Enemy Property. Some of the countries are in the Transferable Account Area, and, as regards the remainder, permission may be granted for transfer of sterling to third countries in respect of specific transactions.
    Mr. F. Noel-Baker: Has my right hon. and learned Friend yet taken a decision on the question of allowing British tourists to export a sterling allowance to Yugoslavia, and, if so, when will he announce that decision?
    Sir S. Cripps: That is quite a different question. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put it on the Order Paper.

    Anglo-Portuguese Negotiations
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what reason the Anglo-Portuguese trade and financial negotiations have broken down; and, in view of the serious effect that the exclusion of many British exports from the Portuguese market will have, what action he is taking to find a mutually satisfactory solution between this country and Portugal.
    Sir S. Cripps: The negotiations have not broken down; they are now being resumed through His Majesty's Embassy, Lisbon, and we expect shortly to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement. The interruption in United Kingdom exports to Portugal should be regarded as temporary.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Can the Chancellor say how much has already been lost through the action of the Portuguese Government in cutting off imports into their country, and how long he anticipates this state of affairs will continue?
    Sir S. Cripps: I do not anticipate that it will last after the time when the agreement is settled up. I do not think that we have necessarily lost anything. It may be that these same goods will be imported afterwards.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a

    1859
    serious answer? The trade between England and Portugal is worth £18 million a year, and it has now been cut off. Surely the Chancellor can tell us how long he thinks we shall have to suffer from this instead of saying it depends upon how long it will take to mend the situation?
    Sir S. Cripps: It is not a question of mending the situation. I do not expect it to last after the time when we arrive at an agreement, and I expect that to be shortly.
    Mr. Stanley: Is not this a matter in which people are seriously interested? Even a short interruption of valuable export trade of this kind means a great deal to us, and we are surely entitled to have from the Chancellor a serious answer to our fears. Can he assure us that within a reasonable time an agreement will be concluded which will allow this valuable export trade to be resumed?
    Sir S. Cripps: I have already said twice that we expect shortly to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement and that we expect exports to be resumed when we have done that.

    Austrian Conversion Loan (Italian Default)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Italian Government are still defaulting on their guarantee to pay 20½5 per cent. on the drawn bonds of the Austrian Conversion Loan, 1934–59; and what steps he is taking to obtain repayment, in view of the fact that the United Kingdom Government is one of the guarantors of this loan.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir. The Italian Government's attitude was defined in the Press announcement of 13th July, 1948, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. Since then there have been no developments. We shall continue to press the Italian Government to fulfil its obligations.
    Mr. Keeling: Can the Chancellor confirm that of the eight countries which guaranteed this loan, Italy and Czechoslovakia are the only two in default? Can he also confirm that Italy has quite enough sterling to her credit to fulfil her obligations?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir, I am afraid that I cannot confirm that without notice.

    Royalties (B.B.C. Programmes)
    Mr. Cooperasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what special' facilities are granted to the British Broadcasting Corporation for remitting dollars to the United States of America either directly or through the services of the Performing Rights Society for payment of royalties for American music and artistes used when broadcasting records, recorded programmes or live programmes.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: None, Sir. The B.B.C. have no such facilities beyond those accorded to ordinary undertakings.
    Mr. Cooper: Does the Financial Secretary realise that on 26th March in one programme alone of 26 records played 24 were of American music? Will he not agree that that shows an unnecessary discrimination against English composers? Will he make representations to the B.B.C. for a fairer method of selection to be used in future so that we do not squander American dollars on royalties in this way?

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that many items, such as suspensory bandages and eye-baths, in the Schedule of surgical appliances for the National Health Service are still subject to Purchase Tax; and if he will take steps to free them from this impost.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I cannot anticipate my right hon. and learned Friend's Budget Statement.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that it is an anomalous position at present? While drugs and medicines in the Schedule were relieved of Purchase Tax, it appears that, quite accidentally, accessories such as surgical appliances are still liable to tax.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Nevertheless, I cannot anticipate the Budget Statement of my right hon. and learned Friend.
    Sir J. Mellor: Is it necessary for the Budget Statement to be anticipated? Cannot such a matter be dealt with by statutory order?

  CIVIL SERVICE (NON-INDUSTRIAL STAFFS)
  Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what was the total number of non-industrial civil servants employed in all Departments on part-time duties on 1st January, 1949, and 1st September, 1939.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): At 1st January, 1949, the number was 43,663 and at 1st April, 1939, 26,394. I regret that figures for 1st September, 1939, are not available.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE Flax
  Colonel Clarkeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give the number of flax mills at present operating in this country and the number of officers employed in this connection; and if he will give corresponding figures for the peak flax production period during the war.
  Mr. Bottomley (Secretary for Overseas Trade): I assume that the hon. and gallant Member's Question refers to both the staff in the headquarters of the Directorate of Home Flax Production and the managerial and office staff in the flax mills. Ten flax mills are at present operating and the number of officers employed in connection with them is 99. For the peak period of production during the war, the corresponding figures were 17 and 142.
  Colonel Clarkeasked the President of the Board of Trade how much flax has been exported from this country to date during 1949; what was the price per ton; and to what extent this price was subsidised.
  Mr. Bottomley: The latest published returns cover the first two months of 1949. No flax was exported during that period.
  Colonel Clarke: Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the export of flax is of importance to this country at the present time?
  Mr. Bottomley: We want as much flax as we can get ourselves. Consistent with that, export is always desirable.

  Footwear (Retail Price)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent have increased supplies of footwear led to a reduction of the retail selling price below the present legal maximum.
  Mr. Bottomley: I cannot say to what extent footwear is being sold below the legal maximum price because of the increase in supplies.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: If reduced prices through increased supplies are not materialising, will my hon. Friend ask the President of the Board of Trade to take further steps in the matter to cut profit margins and in that way bring about the state of affairs which he led the House to expect by his statement to the House on 10th March?
  Mr. Bottomley: I do not think that that is a reasonable assumption.
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade by what amount has the retail selling price of children's footwear been reduced during the past twelve months.
  Mr. Bottomley: The maximum retail price of footwear depends on the margins which may be added by manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers. The reductions that have been made in these margins in the last twelve months represent reductions of from 4d. to ls. 7d. in the £ for children's footwear, depending on the type and grade.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In view of the very slow progress still being made towards reduced prices, will my hon. Friend ask the President of the Board of Trade to expedite reductions in this regard?

  Timber (Prices)
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, with a view to a reduction in the building costs of houses, he will consider reducing the trading profits he is making out of timber, and allow the price of timber to become adjusted to the world market price.
  Mr. Bottomley: The selling price of timber which is purchased on public account is fixed from time to time in relation to actual costs, and it is not the policy of the Board of Trade to make, over a period, either profit or loss on timber trading.
  Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware that private enterprise would buy timber both from the right source and at the right price far better? Why is it that the Government go on making profits when we want houses built as completely as possible? It is an absolute scandal.

  Yugoslav Goods (Import Licences)
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffeasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the machinery by which import licences can be obtained by British firms wishing to import goods from Yugoslavia under Article 5 of the Anglo-Yugoslav Agreement.
  Mr. Bottomley: Applications for import licences should be addressed to the Import Licensing Department, 189 Regent Street, London, W.1.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any special consideration will be given to a company known as the British South European Merchants Ltd. whose directors include' the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing), the hon. Member for Northern Cornwall (Mr. Horabin) and four Yugoslav civil servants?
  Mr. Bottomley: No special treatment will be given for any such undertaking.
  Major Beamish: In view of the political implications of trade of this nature, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that there is sufficient control over such operations?
  Mr. Bottomley.
  Colonel Hutchison: Does the hon. Gentleman's reply mean that a licensee in this country is perfectly free to deal with exporters in Yugoslavia without passing through any intermediary?
  Mr. Bottomley: Yes, Sir, that is possible.

  Pulp and Newsprint (Imports)
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now give some explanation of the continuous purchases of pulp from Russia and newsprint from Sweden at higher rates than they can be obtained from Canada.
  Mr. Bottomley: There is practically no difference between the c.i.f. cost of comparable grades of pulp from Canada and Russia. The cost of newsprint from Sweden is higher than that from Canada, but imports from Canada are limited by availability of dollars.
  Mr. De la Bère: But can the Minister tell us how much longer this curtailment of newsprint for the Press is to go on? Why not buy in the cheapest possible place and let us have more newsprint? Most of my good sayings are not published in the papers and it is all due to lack of newsprint.
  Mr. Mikardo: Will the Minister refer the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) to the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) who, in Question No. 62, is urging reduction in expenditure in Canada on newsprint?
  Mr. Hurd: Will the Minister consult again with the Newsprint Supply Co. to see whether they are prepared and willing to take over this responsibility from the Government?
  Mr. David Ecclesasked the President of the Board of Trade why he is permitting the import of an extra 20,000 tons of newsprint from Canada at a cost of some 2,000,000 dollars, when the manufacturing capacity and raw materials available in the sterling area could easily take care of this quantity and more.
  Mr. Bottomley: The total imports of newsprint from Canada and Newfoundland which have been approved for 1949 are the same as those which were allowed in 1948. It is obviously desirable that we should maintain these traditional imports at such a level as our currency position will permit although they are of course substantially below the amount imported before the war.
  Mr. Eccles: Notwithstanding my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère), does not the Parliamentary Secretary think that these two million dollars would be better spent on feeding-stuffs or meat?
  Mr. Bottomley: We must have regard to traditional imports.
  Mr. De la Bère: May I ask the Minister to realise that I want both feeding-stuffs and newsprint from Canada. I want everything we can get.

  Factory Building, Scotland
  Mr. M. MacPhersonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will outline the programme of factory building contemplated for Scotland during the next two or three years.
  Mr. Bottomley: The total of new factory space in Scotland still in course of construction, or approved but not yet started, amounts to nearly 12 million square feet, at an estimated cost of over £28 million. Of this 3½ million square feet (estimated cost £6.3 million) is Government financed. I cannot say what additions to this programme can be made, since it is necessary for every proposal to be examined on its merits in view of the continued need to conserve our building resources and to limit capital investment to essential projects.

  Coal and Steel (Exports)
  Mr. Baldwinasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) how much coal and steel, in terms of quantity and value, have been exported to the Continent of Europe during the last 12 months to the most convenient date;
  (2) how much coal and steel, in terms of quantity and value, have been exported to Canada during the last 12 months to the most convenient date.
  Mr. Bottomley: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Baldwin: Could the Minister give us any idea, because I rather want those figures for the Debate if, later on, I am fortunate in catching your eye, Mr. Speaker.
  Following are the figures:

  UNITED KINGDOM EXPORTS YEAR 1948

  —

  Coal

  Iron and Steel (a)

  Tons

  £'000

  Tons

  £'000

  To Canada Europe

  163,114

  597

  41,622

  1,845

  (b)

  8,133,913

  29,770

  684,021

  35,200

  (a) Comprises in addition to iron and steel, certain manufacturers thereof. Separate figures for iron and steel are not readily available.

  (b) All countries in Europe, including Iceland, the Faroes, Soviet Union (European and Asiatic), Turkey (European and Asiatic), Cyprus, Azores, Madeira and Malta.

  Anglo-Polish Agreement
  Mr. Piratinasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the effect of the export restrictions, which he announced on 31st March, on the Anglo-Polish Trade Agreement.
  Mr. Bottomley: The Export Control Order to which the hon. Member refers does not conflict with any provision of the Anglo-Polish Trade and Finance Agreement.
  Mr. Piratin: Does that mean that the various commodities which Poland is anxious to buy from England as a result of the Anglo-Polish Treaty are in no way affected? If I remember aright, certain kinds of machine tools were involved. Can the Minister therefore give a guarantee?
  Mr. Bottomley: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Will the hon. Gentleman, under the same heading, also look into those goods which the British people do not want to buy from Poland, particularly the horticultural products which will seriously harm our own industry?

  PROPOSED GRAVING DOCK, RIVER CLYDE
  Colonel Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will now make a further statement regarding the provision of a graving dock on the River Clyde.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): I am unable to make any further statement on this subject at present.
  Colonel Hutchison: Can the Minister say whether the Committee which has been examining docks and harbours has made any representations in this connection?
  Mr. Edwards: No, I am afraid I could not, without notice.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can the hon. Gentleman give no indication at all when some decision will be made on this important matter?
  Mr. Edwards: I have just said that we cannot at present.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the great importance of this for the Clyde and for Scotland, would the Minister not have a decision made right away to get this graving dock started, so that ships built on the Clyde can be housed in the Clyde and not sent away to foreign lands?
  Mr. Edwards: I have just said we cannot at present.

  GOVERNMENT VEHICLE (POLITICAL POSTER)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he has taken in the matter referred to him by the hon. Member for Mile End, concerning Conservative Party propaganda displayed by a poster on a Government vehicle; and whether he is satisfied that the steps he is taking will prevent the disseminating of political propaganda on Government property.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. George Brown): The employee concerned has been reprimanded, and an instruction has been issued reminding the staff that political propaganda material must not be displayed on Government vehicles or property. The incident referred to was an isolated one caused by the thoughtless action of an individual without the knowledge of the Department, and the action taken should prevent any recurrence.
  Mr. Piratin: While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him if he can give the House an assurance that the steps he has taken will prevent such posters and other materials being used by the Conservative Party on Government vehicles and property in order to expound their policy?
  Mr. Brown: My reply said exactly that.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered:
"That this day, Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. H. Morrison.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  (10TH ALLOTTED DAY)
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1949–50
  Motion made, and Question proposed:
  "That a further sum, not exceeding £50, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services connected with the Meat Situation and Food Production for the year ending on the 31st March. 1950, namely:

  £

  Class IX, Vote 2, Ministry of Food

  10

  Class VI, Vote 9, Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (Food Production Services)

  10

  Class VI, Vote 21, Department of Agriculture for Scotland (Food Production Services)

  10

  Class VI, Vote 8, Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries

  10

  Class VI, Vote 20, Department of Agriculture for Scotland

  10

  Total

  £50"

  —[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]

MEAT SUPPLIES
3.26 p.m.
Mr. Eden: As I remarked at Question Time on Thursday, I do not propose this afternoon to discuss the detailed negotiations which are under way with the Argentine Government in respect of a renewal of the Andes Agreement. On that subject I will content myself with just one observation. I have no information, of course, beyond what appears in the Press, but no country that has any self-respect is ever willing to be held to ransom. Therefore His Majesty's Government will have full support from this side of the House in resisting such methods if any attempt is made to apply them by any country at any time.
Mr. Gallacher: We are being held to ransom by America.
Mr. Eden: By any country at any time. Gifts do not seem to us to be ransom; perhaps they do to the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). I am afraid that probably ends my measure of approval, support and agreement with His Majesty's Government.

1869
I should imagine also, however, that we are agreed as to the seriousness of the meat situation which confronts this country. No one will deny that our meat ration is dismally small and pitifully inadequate, lower than it has been at any time either during the war or since. Accurate comparisons are always difficult but I do not think it will be denied that before the war we were as a nation large consumers of meat and bacon. The average consumption—I use the word "average" deliberately—of meat and bacon per head in the United Kingdom before the war was approximately 110 lb. That figure is from a Command Paper and I think it is all right. Taking the present consumption on the basis of the existing ration—that is to say, half a pound of fresh meat a week, 1½ ounces of canned meat, and 2 ounces of bacon—there is a total of three-quarters of a pound a week, that is to say, if my calculation is right, less than 40 lb. a year compared with an average of 110 lb. a year before the war. I think those figures are approximately correct; if they are not, naturally I shall be glad if they are corrected.
Mr. Piratin: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down. This is a factual point. Has not the right hon. Gentleman taken two sources of information which are not identical? On the one hand, I believe he has taken a source of information from imports before the war which covered all forms of food, restaurants and so on, and, on the other hand, he has taken rations.
Mr. Eden: No, I have been careful to try to take comparable figures. If they are not comparable, I shall be glad if the Minister will say so. Since the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) is interested in this matter, I shall give one further comparison which I had also checked up, but with which I did not want to take up the time of the Committee. There was an inquiry by the Ministry of Labour before the war into working class consumption for 1937–38. I want to be quite fair about this. These figures were for people in employment in 1937–38, and showed an average weekly consumption per head of 1 lb. 4 oz. of meat plus 6 oz. of bacon. In other words, the average consumption of meat in a working class household in those days
1870
was roughly double what it is at present, and the consumption of bacon was roughly treble.
Mr. Shurmer: What were the figures for the unemployed?
Mr. Eden: The hon. Gentleman really must be fair. I said that I am giving the figures for people in employment. The overall figure is that which I have already stated: 110 lb. a year—that is taken from the present Government's Command Paper, not from a wicked Tory Government Command Paper—as compared with an average of less than 40 lb. at present. If, however, these figures are disputed, I shall be very glad to have the true figures. What I do not think will be disputed is that the meat ration is now woefully below the average consumption of before the war. If anybody wants to say anything else, they are welcome to do so on any platform they like.
Mr. Benn Levy Mr. Benn Levy (Eton and Slough): rose
Mr. Eden: I cannot give way; I have a long way to go.
Nor is the comparison much more heartening if it is made with other European countries. So far as I can discover, Holland is the only European country with a ration so low as our own. In Austria it is 10½ ozs.; in Denmark, 23¼ ozs., and in a large number of other countries meat is unrationed. Hon. Members may well say that that is because meat is so expensive in those countries that ordinary people cannot buy it. There is something in that—of course there is—but it is not by any means universally true. I am not prepared to be dogmatic about it, but if hon. Gentlemen opposite would look at the present French position, for instance, I have a suspicion that the average ration of meat eaten in France today is higher than the ration eaten here. If the Government feel confident that that is not so, I shall be glad to hear it.
There is one other comparison I want to make. If the Minister was correctly reported—he may not have been—I have seen reports from France and elsewhere that in Manchester he referred to the price of meat in France as having dropped to 8s. a lb. I do not know whether

1871
he really said that. I do not think he can have meant to have said it. Perhaps he meant 8s. a kilo.
The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey)The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey) indicated assent.
Mr. Eden: That is quite different. If I remember aright, there are something like two and one fifth pounds to a kilo, which means that the price of meat in France has dropped, not to 8s., but to a figure more like 4s., which is quite different. Now that we are agreed about that, it is a great help.
Comparisons apart, I want now to turn to what can be done about what, I suppose, everybody in the House will admit is a deplorable situation. First, about imports. As regards the Argentine, as I have said, I do not want to discuss the current negotiations, but I would say, at any rate, that it would be unwise to rely on any material increase in supplies from that source in the next few years. That would be a wise way to look at it. What is the position in Eire? I must confess I find it very difficult to follow the course of our negotiations with that country. I have seen it stated, for instance, that there are large quantities of cattle available in Eire but the British will not purchase. Indeed, the Eire Minister of Food had some observations to make in reply to something which the Parliamentary Secretary said last December. May I remind the House of what the right hon. Lady said? It seemed very reasonable, and I always like to quote the Government when I think they are being very reasonable. She said:
"…the main objective of the recent agreement was to ensure that the supplies of cattle which came from Eire in pre-war days should be received in this country now. My right hon. Friend"—
that was, the Minister of Food—
"went to Eire and discussed the matter very fully but, so far, the results have been very disappointing. The House will be astonished to learn that only 3,440 fat cattle have been received in the period from 1st July to 30th November, against 16,950 in the corresponding period last year."
Then she explained that with store cattle the position had also declined, and added:
"I confess there is something of a mystery about this.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1948; Vol. 459, c. 859.]
There came an answer from the Minister
1872
of Agriculture in Eire—not a very polite answer, if I may say so; this comes of Governments dealing with these things; they get rude with each other. The Minister of Agriculture said this:
"There are almost unlimited supplies of store cattle 2½ years old and over available but we cannot make the British buy them, although they are welcome to do so. Dr. Summerskill ought to discuss these matters with her colleagues"—
I would never say that to the right hon. Lady—
"before presenting an utterly misleading version of the cattle and meat trade between Ireland and Britain."
It is quite true that I have been away, but I have not been able to discover whether anything has been said by the Government since that observation by the Minister of Agriculture in Eire. So far as my researches go, I have not been able to find a single further statement at all from the Government. Can they tell us now, therefore, what is the position concerning supplies from Eire? There surely cannot be a question of competition from other countries because, as the Committee knows quite well, our agreement with Eire entitles us to 90 per cent. of Eire's exports. Then what has happened, and why are such miserably small quantities becoming available to us?
The House may also remember—it is a little over a year ago—that the Ministry of Food were offered 10,000 tons of canned meat from Eire but did not want them and would take only 5,000 tons. The rest went to Czechoslovakia. The Parliamentary Secretary then said:
"… we do not want to increase canned at the expense of fresh meat."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1948; Vol. 459, c. 860.]
I can quite understand that, but unfortunately, as I see it, we are not now getting either the canned or the fresh meat. That does not seem to be very satisfactory. I should like the Minister of Food, or whoever replies for the Government, to give the House full information about our relations with Eire on this matter of food supplies, and to say to what extent the trouble is one of price and how much is involved. I do not know whether the question is one of price, but it rather looks like it in view of these exchanges between the Governments.

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At present, when the meat ration is so desperately small, I should think that the great majority of people would be prepared to pay at any rate a small amount more for the meat if they could be assured of an increase in the quantity available—I think so. But under the present system of Government purchase the consumer has no say in it either way; he cannot register his opinion at all. At present the housewife has to buy other things to make up for the shortage of meat and almost invariably those other things are pretty expensive in points and money.
I must make it clear that what I said about price in respect of Eire does not, of course, apply to the Argentine.
Mr. Tolley: Why?
Mr. Eden: I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would know the answer without my having to explain it. It is because the Argentine is specifically bound in the agreement as to price. I am not suggesting that in respect of the Argentine we should give way; I am suggesting, as regards Eire, a different method. If the question is one of price, we should be told what it is and what it amounts to.
I do not want today to discuss the merits or otherwise of bulk buying, a ready subject for debate though that is; still less do I want to approach the matter merely from the angle of Socialism versus free enterprise. But there is this consideration which was forced upon me when I was in Canada and which must be apparent to everybody now in a different context in respect of the Argentine. I would weary the House with just two sentences which I used myself in Toronto, which I really believe to be true.
One of the risks attendant upon State trading is that the negotiations between Governments on commercial matters may foster illwill which would never arise if the transactions were diversified through merchants. One may have a misunderstanding between two merchants in different countries which may have no more important effect than a difference between two merchants in the same country, but a misunderstanding about trade between two Governments, with all the attendant publicity, may all too easily foster irritation between two nations.
1874
I turn to sources of supply within the British Commonwealth. First, I want to speak of New Zealand. That small country is making the most gallant effort to maintain her supplies. Subject to anything the Minister has to say, I do not think we can look for anything more than a modest increase from New Zealand, perhaps something of the order of 50,000 tons a year, but not more.
As to Canada, the whole subject is bound up with the question of dollar exchange and no greater quantities can be taken except at the cost of dollar exchange, or if our Canadian friends are ready to buy more from us. I must say I have some sympathy with our Canadian friends because they were encouraged a couple of years ago to go ahead and produce more, and then we ran into this dollar difficulty which might have been foreseen. Having produced more, largely in response to our policy, they find that we cannot take the goods. I admit the difficulties and if the right hon. Lady cares to look up the papers, she will find that I made out the best case I could in Canada, although it was a task which was not particularly congenial.
It is in Australia that the long-term possibilities are most promising, but in the immediate future it does not seem that we ought to look for any large increase. I see the Australian Minister of Commerce estimated the other day that it will be about 12 months before the production of pig meat shows any marked improvement, 18 months to two years for mutton and lamb production to forge ahead, and beef is not expected to rise appreciably for at least four years. Beef, of course, is dependent on the big scheme of development of new areas which is going through. About that development I much hope that agreement with the Australian Government will be reached without delay.
I think it is clear, as Mr. Chifley has maintained, that any large long-term scheme is going to involve the Australians in very heavy capital expenditure. Additional facilities for road, rail, harbours and perhaps slaughtering facilities are all needed if the best results are to be obtained. I see that the Australian Prime Minister in "The Times" yesterday estimated that the cost of the one road, from Wyndham to the Kimberley

1875
Ranges, alone would be 1¼ million Australian pounds. That is a small part of the project which, I see, Lord Bruce estimates is to cost £50 million, a very large capital expenditure. In all the circumstances, it is not unreasonable that Australia should look for certain guarantees of our willingness to take meat supplies produced by the new scheme over a given period—[Laughter.]—I do not know what the hon. Member is giggling about; no doubt he will explain later.
Sir Richard Acland: Bulk buying.
Mr. Eden: The scheme is one of preparation and development on a large scale. I think it is a good scheme. I do not exclude the Government occasionally doing some good. I was only pointing out the difficulties into which we get in these negotiations with foreign countries and if hon. Members want examples they have only to open their newspapers on any day of the week. This Australian scheme seems to have immense possibilities and I think it would be to all of us a great comfort if we could rely for our meat supplies, particularly beef supplies, on Australian and home production. I should like to know the position about this guarantee for Australia. I saw that a junior Minister speaking in another place—and I believe statements of policy can be quoted from another place—said:
"The Australian Government will require from us long term assurances for unrestricted markets at fair prices before embarking on that expenditure."
He went on to say:
"Certainly we can give assurances on these points."
I should like to know whether that is so, because no comparable statement has been made in this House and this was only made a little casually in a Debate on land and water resources by a junior Minister in another place. As the issue is of such great importance, we should be told about it here. Is that principle accepted and do the Australian Government know that it is accepted? Personally, I hope the statement of the Minister is correct. I would only say that if it is thought reasonable
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by the Government to give long-term undertakings of this character to the Australian Government—and I think it is reasonable—it is also reasonable to give some similar long-term undertakings to our own producers at home. Of the remaining overseas markets there is only Africa, and not even the new discoveries in connection with the tsetse fly are likely to make any difference there for years to come.
So, except for Australia, that is the somewhat dismal view I have to inflict on the Committee. The Committee will observe that there does not appear to be any overseas market from which we can expect any substantial increase of meat for the home consumer. I must add that it must be remembered that many of these countries, including Australia, will in the meanwhile be increasing their populations and thereby making greater demands on the supply of meat themselves. All the facts in the survey I have given are available to others and have been available to the Government long since.
This brings me to the most important issue of all, production at home. Here I must trouble the Committee with a few figures. Last year at home our production of meat and bacon totalled only 779,000 tons compared with more than one million tons before the war, yet in that time our population has increased by about two million. This seems a completely fantastic situation at present when we are faced with such grave shortages of foreign exchange and when as a result, we ought to be relying to an increasing extent on home production rather than on imported meat to maintain our level of supplies. We must have a full explanation from the Government about this. We have not had one. The plain fact is that no amount of exhortation can enable farmers to produce more unless they are given more feedingstuffs. On the question of feeding-stuffs the Government's policy has been one of order, counter-order and disorder. Going back to August, 1947, there is the famous quotation from the Lord President of the Council—who I am sorry is not present, because I should like to congratulate him on the wisdom and foresight of the observation—when addressing the chairmen of county agricultural committees. He said:
"Large increases of feedingstuffs must come from imports, and even scarce dollars will

1877
be spent on all that is obtainable, since this operation must lead to ultimate dollar saving."
That appeared to us to be Government policy and a policy we could endorse and support. In the Economic Survey for that same year we were told that the
"import of £1,000 worth of feedingstuffs"—
I am sure the Minister of Agriculture will agree, whatever the Minister of Food thinks about it—
"will save nearly £2,000 worth of livestock products."
Again we are in full agreement. In the Survey for 1948 it was stated on the increase of feedingstuff prices:
"There is momentarily less saving in foreign exchange than had been expected from the policy of producing more livestock in the United Kingdom. This, however, is expected to be a transient problem."
We all agree on that. It was a transient problem; it has transited —it has now gone. The price of feedingstuffs reached its peak in January last year. It has since been falling. Yet in July, 1948, the Minister of Food made this astonishing statement:
"For every £ spent on the importation of coarse grains we get only about a third as much meat… as for £1 spent on importing meat from the Argentine, Australia or New Zealand."
In reply to an interjection he added:
"I am referring to beef and mutton. I cannot give the figures for pork, …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th July, 1948; Vol. 453, c. 880.]
I simply cannot understand that statement, and every effort to elicit an explanation has received no response. When my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) made a speech containing a detailed refutation of it, no reply was vouchsafed. We were told that it was not a matter concerning the Ministry of Agriculture but the Ministry of Food. Even more extraordinary, is it not a fact that no imported coarse grains are issued for the production of beef and mutton? If that is so, what in the world was the use of the Minister's statement and what was the value of the calculation? It is quite incomprehensible.
I return to the Lord President's pledge. When, some 18 months afterwards my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) asked if the pledge still held
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good the Minister of Food gave the rather equivocal answer:
"Yes, Sir, if necessary."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 9th March, 1949; Vol. 462, c. 1190.]
But how could the necessity possibly be greater than it is today? How much lower has the meat ration to fall before the necessity arises? Indeed, was it not great when the Lord President gave his very proper pledge? Last year, in 1947–48, we imported about 1½ million tons of coarse grains. Yet the average before the war, in the years 1934–38, was nearly three times that amount annually. What are the words "if necessary" to be taken to mean in that context? Except for about £250,000 spent on whey powder for calf and chick foods there has been no importation of feedingstuffs from the dollar area. Yet they are obtainable. I do not think that there is any dispute about that, or about the fact that world crops of coarse grains are at a record level—far above ordinary levels. The Food and Agriculture Organisation referred to "an indicated surplus of some 2 million tons of coarse grain."
There is no doubt that the feedingstuffs are available. Apparently the Government are not buying them as a matter of deliberate policy. If that is so, they are running exactly counter to the pledge which the Leader of the House gave that they would be bought, even if necessary by using scarce dollar currency. We must know why that pledge, given 18 months ago, has not been fulfilled. It cannot be disputed that if it had been fulfilled there would not be the present drastic cut in the meat ration. Meanwhile, the ration of feedingstuffs to farmers is exactly the same as when the Lord President of the Council made his statement promising all this help.
I turn to the contribution of the Economic Secretary at Question Time last Thursday. He was asked if he would authorise the spending of dollars in the purchase of feedingstuffs. He said that supplies of animal feedingstuffs from non-dollar sources had so far proved sufficient to meet requirements of the livestock rationing scheme at current rationing levels. Surely everyone is agreed that the current ration level is totally inadequate. That is the whole point; it is what the argument is about. If we are to improve our present miserably low level of meat rationing we must obtain more feeding-stuffs for our farmers.

1879
The position seemed to me to be made even worse by the Prime Minister when he in his turn took a hand yesterday. In reply to the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers) he said:
"The hon. Member will realise that feeding-stuffs will not provide bacon next week."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1949; Vol. 463, c. 1700.]
What an observation, with all respect to the Prime Minister. No one has ever said that they would. The point is that we should have had these feedingstuffs, if possible when the Lord President said that we were going to buy them, that is to say 18 months ago; if not, at least a year ago or even six months ago. That would have made a great difference, perhaps a fundamental difference to our meat ration at the present time. That is our case in respect of supplies of feeding-stuffs.
The truth is, so far as I can see, that the Lord President's pledge has been completely ignored. I am not surprised that as the result of that, he is not here this afternoon. We say that it is the Government's duty to obtain the greatest possible quantity of feedingstuffs for our farmers. The Government may say, "How is this to be done within our existing dollar resources?" I would reply, that presumably the Government thought all that out before the Lord President gave his pledge that it would be done, even by using dollars. Otherwise he should certainly not have given the undertaking. At all events, that undertaking was given, and I might remind the Committee that the dollar crisis had already burst upon us.
The conclusion seems to me inescapeable that unless the Government are content, and they cannot be content, with the present miserably inadequate meat ration for a period of several years, they must buy more feedingstuffs for our farmers. In doing so they will only be doing what all the other countries in receipt of Marshall aid have for a long time past been doing. I suspect—I hope I am wrong in this—that one of the reasons for the Minister's attitude is that he agrees that it is cheaper for this country to buy meat from abroad than to purchase foodstuffs for use at home. Perhaps he will tell us when he winds up the Debate.
1880
I must put a question to the Minister on another subject which is very important in this connection. What is the present position about the pig population? Is it true, for instance, as I have heard it said, that the number of gilts in pig, which was increasing some months ago, as the Minister rightly told us, has once again begun to decline? Is that so or not? If it is, is it due to lack of feedingstuffs, the larger production having been embarked upon as a result of the pledge of the Lord President which I have already quoted? If these facts are correct, will the Government tell us what they propose to do about this matter? They must realise that production depends upon confidence, and confidence cannot be expected if the Lord President makes one positive statement and an opposite course is then followed. Why is it that these countries which have been overrun, such as Denmark, Holland, Belgium and France, have made further strides in the restoration of their pig population than we have?
I will sum up. Three and a half years after the close of hostilities we have the lowest meat ration ever. In this respect, therefore, the masses of the people are worse off than before the war and worse off than many of their counterparts in other countries of Europe. In this country the restoration of our livestock population has fallen behind that of Continental countries, although many of them were occupied by the Germans.
Mr. Shimmer: Some people are getting less than before the war.
Mr. Eden: The hon. Gentleman says that some people are getting less. If that is his final and conclusive answer to this Debate, I do not think that when he comes to ruminate upon it he will find it altogether satisfactory. We are all agreed that we have a problem. It is no answer to say that some people are getting less meat any more than it is an answer to say that I have been getting a good deal more meat in the last two months in the various Dominions.
It is a good deal bigger problem than is implied by that comment. We say that this is due to the lack of foresight in the purchase of foodstuffs and that this is a deliberate result of the Government's conscious policy of denying coarse grain supplies to the farmers and preferring to

1881
buy meat from abroad rather than purchasing feedingstuffs with which the British farmer could produce more and better meat for the people of Britain. Whatever the cause, the position is that there is this acute shortage of meat today. For this and for their failure in respect of obtaining supplies of meat for the people, the Government must be called to account.
4.0 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summer-skill): I welcomed the opening remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) although he stated that that ended his support and approval. The Committee will agree that the right hon. Gentleman did deal with this matter in a tactful manner, in view of the fact that at this present moment most delicate negotiations are proceeding with the Argentine. But having said that, he then proceeded to indict my Department, and I feel almost sorry for him at the moment for having to torpedo immediately that excellent peroration. He told the world today that our poor little country has, during the past, had a standard of living, so far as meat supplies are concerned, infinitely higher than the other European countries.
Mr. Eden: I did not say that.
Dr. Summerskill: I should like again to examine the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman and find their source. If he examines—and I think he will agree that this is authoritative—"The State of Food and Agriculture," which was issued by the F.A.O. in 1948, he will find that in 1947 and 1948 the consumption of meat per head in this country was 49.4 kilos; in France it was 44.6 kilos—
Mr. Eden: About the same.
Dr. Summerskill: —in Belgium it was 43.9 kilos; in Italy it was 13.7 kilos and in the Netherlands 23.6 kilos. I think the Committee will agree with me that this is the latest report which we have from the F.A.O.—[Interruption]—I am quite entitled to quote these figures after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I would like it to go out to the other countries who will read his speech tomorrow that, in fact, the European average is 26.5 against ours of 49.4.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: That is two years out of date.
Dr. Summerskill: Hon. Gentlemen opposite may not like these figures, but I think they should welcome the fact that their country is living better than these other countries—[Interruption]—and not show such signs of disappointment on hearing that the consumption per head in 1948 was higher in our country than in other European countries. Hon. Members opposite have also forgotten another important factor, which is that these European countries, for the most part, are almost self-sufficient so far as their meat supply is concerned. Where they purchase meat, they buy only marginal amounts, whereas our country has always had to buy about 50 per cent. of its supply. In a moment I will tell them what are the exact figures.
A point in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman which struck me as quite novel was his discovery in Canada that bulk purchase had the effect of creating unfriendliness between nations. He has been to those great Commonwealth countries, New Zealand and Australia. I was fortunate enough to go on a Government delegation in 1944. Surely he would agree with me that the seven years' agreement which we made with New Zealand—a bulk purchase agreement—has cemented the bonds which tie us? Did he not go out there and find farmers feeling very friendly disposed towards a country which gives a guarantee and security for seven years ahead? Can he say that he was met by farmers out there—and I know the wonderful hospitality of those countries—who felt rather resentful that he represented a country which dared to indulge in bulk purchase? Or was he welcomed, as I am sure he was, as a representative of that country? Knowing the right hon. Gentleman, I am sure he did not—like some hon. Members whose names I will not mention—go abroad and foul his own nest. He remembered that when we are abroad, we forget party and present a united front to the world.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: What about the Attorney-General in Poland?
Dr. Summerskill: I am sure, in the light of my own experience in these two great Dominions of ours, that the right hon. Gentleman was welcomed, and I say again that these contracts have cemented

1883
the bonds of friendship rather than severed them.
I am sorry that I have to bore the House with figures, but I am sure that hon. Members will agree that in order to appreciate fully the position, it is necessary to have the background. Probably, later on, they may like to digest these figures at their leisure.
Mr. J. H. Hare: That is all they have to digest.
Dr. Summerskill: If the right hon. Gentleman could have proved today that my Department was being advised by inefficient men with no business experience and no experience of the meat world; if he could have proved—which he did not attempt to do—that we have failed to tap every source of supply, however small; if he could have proved that we have not shown the initiative necessary to embark on long-term schemes which would have ensured our meat supply in the future, he would have had grounds on which to criticise us. I believe I can satisfy hon. Members that we have not failed on any of these counts. The right hon. Gentleman talked about pre-war supplies. Of course, the prewar supplies were much bigger than the supplies we have today, because we were able to buy and to produce during peacetime. They amounted to 2,100,000 tons. Of this total just over half of the meat was produced in this country. The remaining million tons were imported. Of this amount, the Argentine sent 440,000 tons; Australia and New Zealand 460,000 tons; other South American countries 70,000 tons, and other countries sent us small amounts which totalled 30,000 tons.
It will be remembered that the necessity for increasing crop cultivation and the difficulty of importing animal feeding-stuffs led to a reduction in our home supplies, but this was offset by the fact that we were able to buy during the war from the Argentine, Canada and the United States. Since the war, we have reached the bottom of the curve for home production. In both 1947 and 1948 the figure has been approximately 720,000 tons. I think that was the figure which the right hon. Gentleman gave. In 1947 we received about 1,100,000 tons from overseas, but in 1948 we could get only
1884
about 875,000 tons of imported meat. We anticipate that in 1949 our home production will recover to about 760,000 tons. But even assuming that the Argentine will send us the meat she sent last year, which at the moment is very far from certain, we cannot depend on receiving more than about 865,000 tons in imports. This means that again we shall only have about 1,625,000 tons from all sources for the year. If, of course, for any reason Argentine shipments cease after the end of March, then we shall lose 240,000 tons.
In the meantime we are faced with a very critical period. I do not want to under-emphasise it. From now until home production becomes available in August and September, we must conserve our supplies very, very carefully. Because of the shortfall in supplies from the Argentine at the end of the year, we had to draw heavily on our stocks to maintain the shilling ration. We ended the year with 50,000 tons less than we ended the year 1947. We had to eat into our stocks—we fully realised that we were doing that—in order to keep up the shilling ration. If we had gone on any longer, we would have reduced those stocks below the minimum level. That is why it was necessary to impose a further meat cut.
Despite the fact that these negotiations are going on in the Argentine, I think I am entitled to say that the immediate cause of the reduction was, without doubt, the failure of supplies from the Argentine. The Andes Agreement was signed in February, 1948. That provided for the supply of 400,000 tons of frozen meat in the following 12 months, but from August onwards it became clear that the shipments were not coming in. At the end of the year we asked His Majesty's Ambassador in the Argentine to make representations at the highest level. Nevertheless, when the Andes year ended, we were 108,000 tons short of the expected supply.
I want hon. Members to consider this point. We are apt to concentrate on this immediate shortage. Many people are ignoring the fact that this is only a symptom of a world malady. This is a symptom of a world shortage. The world demand has increased with the growth of population and the general acceptance of full employment policies. Particularly in South America has local consumption increased. We must recog-

1885
nise the fact that workers both in the agricultural areas and the urban areas of South America are demanding a balanced diet which includes a high proportion of meat.
Mr. H. Fraser: How much?
Dr. Summerskill: If the hon. Gentleman makes a simple deduction, he will know how much meat has not reached this country. Unfortunately, meat differs from other foods in taking years instead of months to produce. It takes about four years from the moment it is decided to produce an animal for beef until the beef is available.
Mr. R. S. Hudson: No.
Dr. Summerskill: The right hon. Gentleman is a farmer. Surely, he must know that the gestation period of an animal is 11 months?
Mr. Hudson: It is nine. Ask the Minister of Agriculture.
Dr. Summerskill: Then it takes two and a half to three and a half years to fatten. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite must realise that on these technical questions I am given the very best advice obtainable. I think that hon. Members will agree that there is no quick and easy way to produce a meat supply.
Apart from the shortage of meat, there are possible sources of supply from which we are cut off because we lack the necessary currency. We can no longer buy meat from the United States or from Canada as we did during the war, because we have not sufficient dollars. In view of the prevailing shortage of meat for home consumption in North America, the price might be prohibitive. We could get as much meat as we liked from South America if we could pay dollars or an excessive price. But we cannot afford to do either of those things. The Committee must remember that when we enter the South American market we have competition from the United States and the European countries. The right hon. member for Warwick and Leamington mentioned the ease with which other European countries were able to obtain meat. He must remember that when this meat was sold by the Argentine it was sold to countries which only needed a marginal amount for which they were prepared to pay very high prices.
Mr. Eden: I do not wish to be misunderstood. I do not think that I ever mentioned buying meat. What I mentioned and emphasised was the buying of feedingstuffs.
Dr. Summerskill: Surely the right hon. Gentleman told the Committee of the high standard of living of the European countries. He devoted quite a lot of his time to talking about the meat consumption per head in the European countries. I wish to point out that they were buying only marginal amounts and they were prepared to pay very high prices.
The right hon. Gentleman asked what are we doing to overcome the shortage. The restoration of home-killed supplies is starting slowly. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is doing all that he can to carry out the expansion programme. The effects of the subsidy scheme for calves and hill sheep are already beginning to be seen; but, as the right hon. Gentleman said, inevitably it will be some years before we will feel the benefit of this progress. Perhaps he was away when this happened, or perhaps he was not told, but we have introduced changes in the price schedules for fat stock.
I shall mention Eire in a moment but, of course, we shall do the same for Eire. He must realise that these new fat stock prices will be reflected in the store cattle which we import from Eire. The right hon. Gentleman asked—and it is a very delicate matter—what was the meaning of the exchanges between Ministers in Eire and myself. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am very conscious of the effect of anything I might say on the food position in other countries. When we had that Debate before Christmas I stated the facts, and now I am pleased to say that cattle from Eire are coming in at a satisfactory rate. Last year we received 198,000 head against an average of 448,000 head in the ears 1934 to 1938. This is mainly due to the fact that the numbers of Irish cattle fell off during the war, just as our cattle population here was reduced. Of course, it takes time for them to recover completely. Our principal imports, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, are store cattle. The new fat stock prices will be reflected in the price given for those.
I wish to deal now with overseas supplies. Well before the war ended it was

1887
realised that so far as our principal overseas suppliers—Australia, New Zealand and the Argentine—were concerned, the basis for increasing production would depend upon the assurances we were able to give them of a continuing and practically unlimited market. For these reasons, long-term contracts were entered into with Australia and New Zealand in 1944. Later, we arranged with New Zealand to enter into another contract for seven years. We were anxious to enter into these contracts. We have started negotiations with the Argentine and Uruguay, but unfortunately we have been unable to finalise them because conditions have developed unsatisfactorily. The Committee will be pleased to hear that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies has set up an interdepartmental working party to investigate the possibility of increasing meat supplies from the Colonies.
I have been asked during the last two or three weeks about the position in France, and hon. Gentlemen who have recently visited France have inquired why we have been unable to make arrangements before this. Some of them have been a little concerned about it. I am pleased to say that the French authorities have told us that they have 2,500 tons of pig meat available, and we are sending an agent of ours in a day or two to arrange for the importation of this meat. Furthermore, we have told France that we are prepared to take all the pig meat or beef which she is able to give us, but unfortunately, so far as beef is concerned, she will probably be unable to send us any before 1952.
I want to assure the Committee that on every occasion when we discuss business with a European country we ask whether any meat is likely to be available, but experience has shown that the quantities turn out to be negligible. Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the Committee on many occasions have stopped me in the Lobby and asked me whether we have investigated the possibilities in these different countries. Many of them, I am quite sure, believe that we sit back and just consider the possibilities of the big exporting countries and ignore the possibilities of the smaller countries which in the past have not sent very large supplies of meat to us. We have an agree-
1888
ment with Denmark and one with Yugoslavia, but, while Denmark has sent us a small amount, Yugoslavia so far has failed to send us any. During the war, we obtained some meat from Iceland, but unfortunately it was of poor quality and the price was excessive. In my view, there can be no doubt that the quantities available from Europe, with the possible exception of France, are not substantial.
Now I come to Canada and the United States. During the war, we were able to obtain meat from both Canada and the United States, but unfortunately the position has changed so far as supplies are concerned. The United States has not enough meat to supply her own people, and she is, in fact, importing meat from the Argentine. In competition with us, she imported 76,000 tons of canned meat last year, and therefore this market is closed. Mexico has been mentioned on both sides of the Committee, and, when we heard that the United States was not importing meat from Mexico, we immediately sent a mission to that country to find out what the possibilities were. In fact, we have sent two missions, and we have now invited representatives from Mexico to come to this country and discuss the details of a trade agreement. Unfortunately we have so far failed to arrive at any agreement that is satisfactory.
In Guatemala, another South American country, we made an agreement with a local company, but no meat has reached us, and I am afraid that that meat may be going in the same direction as the other. We made an arrangement with Uruguay, but local consumption has been high and I am sorry to tell the Committee that considerable quantities have been sent to the United States in the can, and some has gone to Europe, despite the fact that Uruguay has a contract with us to send us meat. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman may ask why; hon. Gentlemen frequently ask me questions and wonder whether my Department is being slow in taking advantage of even small supplies, but I hope to convince the Committee today that we are exploring every possible source of supply.
Mr. Turton: Can the right hon. Lady tell us what action she is taking to enforce these contracts which have been broken?
Dr. Summerskill: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would tell the Committee what action he would take?
Mr. Turton: Private buying.
Dr. Summerskill: Having made a contract with a small country like Uruguay, hoping that they will send us meat, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we have no option but to accept the position when they decide to send some of their meat to the United States or to Europe.
Mr. David Eccles: Was there a price in the Uruguayan agreement?
Dr. Summerskill: Certainly, so far as I know, there was a price, and it would have been a very stupid contract if there were not.
The right hon. Gentleman quite rightly said that New Zealand presents a much brighter picture, and I feel that we owe our warmest thanks to that great Dominion for the help they have given us. Before the war, we imported 260,000 tons, and now it has increased to 360,000 tons, and the New Zealand Government have assured us that they will introduce such measures as are necessary to increase the amount during the next seven years by another 50,000 tons.
The right hon. Gentleman was quite right when he said that possibly Australia offers the best prospect of increasing our supplies, and I think hon. Members in all parts of the Committee, on reading what Mr. Chifley said recently, feel that we are very fortunate to have his sympathy and support in this matter. In 1947, we sent out Sir Henry Turner, the Director of our Meat Division, to investigate conditions in Australia, and he told us that it was possible to double the export of meat from Australia, but that, first, it would be necessary to invest large sums of money in the provision of roads, ports and railways. The present position is that, whereas Australia used to send us 200,000 tons of meat, the figure has dropped to 150,000 tons, but we still feel that that country probably offers the best prospect of increasing our supplies.
Other countries whose possibilities we have investigated are the Falkland Islands and Africa. It has been felt by many hon. Members that in Africa there were great possibilities. In the long term,
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Africa may have great possibilities, but, so far as the short term is concerned, there is no doubt that the rising standard of living of the natives will absorb any extra meat produced. In the Union of South Africa, we have made investigations and our representatives have told us that there is no exportable surplus. In regard to Southern Rhodesia, when the Prime Minister of that country came over here, we asked him whether production could be increased, but at the moment he holds out no hope.
It is clear from what I have said that the sources of supply which seem to us to be the most profitable in the near future will be France and Mexico. [An HON. MEMBER: "Mexico?"] I have just said that we sent a mission to Mexico, but that we have not yet reached agreement. We have suggested that they might send us 20,000 tons next year. From the point of view of immediate supplies, however, we have to regard France and Mexico as the best possibilities, together with home production, but, so far as long-term supplies are concerned, we feel that Australia can help us most.
I was rather surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not raise the canned corned meat position, because it has caused some Questions in the House. I should warn the Committee that we have been living on our stocks and drawing upon those stocks very considerably. The amount of canned corned meat in the world is limited, and the only sizeable quantities that can be obtained are from South America and the Southern Dominions. We have undertaken to take as much as possible—almost the entire exportable surplus—from Australia and New Zealand.
Hon. Members in all quarters have raised the question of canned meat and the right hon. Gentleman once more raised the question of Irish canned meat. This very often confuses hon. Members. They say, "Why is there plenty of canned meat in certain quarters? Why do we not get it? The housewife would appreciate it." I must emphasise again that when we buy canned meat from a country we are jeopardising our supply of carcass meat. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned, I think, 10,000 tons from Eire last year, but he must realise that the housewife

1891
wants an increase of her ration of carcass meat; that is what she is after. It is inconsistent for hon. Members to suggest that we should import canned meat from other countries, who are advertising it in a very attractive way, I agree; for we must remember, if we do, that there is a danger of the carcass meat which we could buy at much lower prices going into the can.
Mr. Eden: If the hon. Lady will permit me to intervene, I want to be clear about this. I do not see the point of her argument, because that 5,000 tons went to Czechoslovakia, so the Irish did without it anyway.
Dr. Summerskill: I admit that it is very difficult. As has already been said, the Ministers in Eire read what we are saying in this House, which makes it a little difficult, but I am prepared to answer the point, and the answer is very simple. If we are entering into long-term negotiations with Eire and are prepared to take their exportable surplus, and if at the same time we said we were prepared to take as much canned meat as they like to offer us, obviously the pattern of their trade would change and next year, instead of the meat coming to us in carcass form, it would find its way into the can at a much higher price. It is not a question of buying one parcel of canned meat from Eire. We would be prepared, perhaps, to buy one parcel. What we are anxious to ensure is that Eire continues to produce meat which can be exported to us in carcass form.
I am sure that hon. Members opposite, perhaps lacking anything more constructive to say, will raise the question of bulk purchase.
Mr. Eden: I raised the question.
Dr. Summerskill: I agree that the right hon. Gentleman raised the question in quite a novel form, but I find it difficult to understand why it is wrong to buy from the Argentine by bulk purchase and right to buy by bulk purchase from Australia and New Zealand. Furthermore, why, if bulk purchase is responsible for our difficulties with the Argentine, does it not render abortive our other trade agreements? Whereas some hon. Members will, I know, base the whole of
1892
their speech tonight on this subject—and I want to anticipate them—they must recognise that they are not unanimous on the subject on the other side of the Committee. Perhaps some of them have read this letter which appeared last week in a newspaper. It said:
"Sir,—You say that the bulk buying of meat by the British Government produced bulk selling by the Argentine Government.
"That is not true. The Argentine Government are in a position to squeeze us because there is a world shortage of meat, and because we are—to a lamentable extent—dependent on supplies from oversea. If we were to confine the purchase of meat to competing private traders in present circumstances, the price could and would be forced up to calamitous heights.
"We should still get no more meat than the Argentine Government are now prepared to give us; and they would get a lot more money, at the expense of the British public."
This letter appeared in the "Daily Mail" last week and was written by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). Hon. Members opposite may not always agree with what the hon. Member for East Aberdeen says, but I think the whole Committee realises that he has a great deal of financial and business knowledge and that most of us listen to him with respect. I attach particular importance to this letter because he was my predecessor, or one of my predecessors, at the Ministry of Food, and he is therefore in a specially privileged position; he can see both sides of the picture. He knows very well the men who are buying for us; he knows very well how the machine works and he also knows very well how private enterprise works. I think no hon. Member opposite would say that he would not have the courage to denounce bulk purchase if he thought our system was inefficient.
Colonel Haughton: Would the right hon. Lady mind reading out the last two or three paragraphs of that letter?
Dr. Summerskill: Certainly. I think it would be fair to read the whole letter, but I did not want to bore the Committee by reading all of it. The last paragraph deals with the need for more feedingstuffs, which is a point upon which we are all agreed, but I think I am right in saying that the whole of the letter is a vindication of our policy of bulk buying.

1893
The right hon. Gentleman asked me about bacon and ham, and I thoroughly agree with him that the housewife considers bacon and ham just as important as meat. Our total supplies in 1948 were 208,000 tons and our estimated supplies in 1949 are approximately 240,000 tons. Of that, I am sure the Committee will be glad to hear, home production in 1948 amounted to 73,000 tons and home production in 1949 will amount to 118,000 tons. There is that increase in production which we all want to see.
So far as imports are concerned, we have an agreement with Canada for 71,000 tons, but I am afraid a very substantial shortfall is expected. We have done our best to make contracts with other countries. Denmark is building up her pig population and Holland and Poland promise us more bacon at the end of the year. Eire, which, as the Committee knows, was a big producer of bacon in the past, unfortunately is unable to send us any this year, but the Eire Government told us that at the end of this year a token export will probably arrive. We have sent missions to Yugoslavia and to Turkey and both these countries hope to produce some bacon for us.
The Committee, of course, will agree that home pig production is of primary importance. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether the pig population had dropped. He is quite right. It expanded in 1947, but there was a drop in 1948 because production outstripped the amount of feedingstuffs available. The check was not a very serious one. New pig prices were announced on 17th March which we feel will restore confidence in the breeding side of the industry. I thoroughly agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is vitally important to restore confidence not only in the industry of pig breeding but in the breeding of all animals. Of course—and perhaps the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has not been drawn to this—the decision to allow farmers to retain all the barley and 25 per cent. of the wheat from their 1949 crops will help considerably. Furthermore, we are giving a bonus issue of feedingstuffs to pig producers. I think farmers on both sides of the Committee will agree with me that this should help considerably towards increasing the supply of bacon in this country.
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I must say something about animal feedingstuffs generally. The latest estimate of coupon issues in the year July, 1949, to June, 1950, is of the order of five million tons, consisting of a fair share of protein foods and cereal foods. This compares with a consumption of 4,200,000 tons in 1948–49, so here we have an increase of one million tons. We estimate that in 1950 there will be six million tons available.
Mr. York: Can the right hon. Lady give us the import figures?
Dr. Summerskill: We are importing about 2,500,000 tons of cereal in 1949. Pig and poultry rations will take 48 per cent. of the total. The cereal position is improving; the right hon. Gentleman was quite right when he said that, but still we shall have to import 60 per cent. of the cereal ration. It has been said, and I repeat, that we have enough stocks of animal feedingstuffs to see us through until September.
Major Sir Thomas Dugdale: At the present ration?
Dr. Summerskill: Yes, on the present ration. In the course of the Debate, hon. Members may want to know certain details about our imports and so on. I would remind the Committee that it is a little difficult to give those details today because the negotiations in the Argentine cover not only meat but animal feeding-stuffs, and therefore it would be unwise to speculate on what our supplies might be.
Mr. Eden: We want to know exactly where we are, so far as we can. Of course, I do not wish to press for information about the Argentine negotiations, but can the right hon. Lady at least tell us this: are we now purchasing the feedingstuffs we need, even though we have to use dollars, in order to maintain the requirements of our farming?
Dr. Summerskill: The right hon. Gentleman is forcing me to say what will happen if the negotiations fail. Does he want me to say that?
Mr. Eden: No.
Dr. Summerskill: I am prepared to give the information to the right hon. Gentleman privately. I want the farmers in the country to have confidence. The negotiations are now proceeding. If I

1895
gave the information to the right hon. Gentleman now, if I now disclosed how we propose to get our animal feeding-stuffs should the negotiations fail I should be weakening the hands of our representatives; I can explain to the right hon. Gentleman afterwards how. I should have thought it was quite clear, and if the right hon. Gentleman gives the matter a little thought I am sure he will appreciate the point.
I want to say something about the nutritional implications of this cut, because this aspect concerns me considerably. The Committee should remember that the two ounces of meat is more than compensated in its nutrient value by half a pint of milk and one egg. Therefore, in view of the increased supplies of meat and eggs—[HON. MEMBERS: "Milk and eggs."]—I beg pardon, milk and eggs; I am obsessed with meat—I feel confident that this cut will not be reflected in the deterioration of our nutritional standards, but I am not trying to minimise its effect. I am fully aware that it will greatly increase the difficulties of the housewife in stretching the domestic meat ration over the week's meals, while still providing an acceptable and palatable diet. It will hit particularly the home that cannot go outside for its meals. May I then pay a tribute to those women in the villages and throughout the country who are called upon to bear this additional burden, and express on behalf of my Department our gratitude for the resource and ingenuity they display in maintaining the family rations.
Mr. Eccles: With relation to the figure which the right hon. Lady gave us for the consumption of meat per head in this country in 1947— I believe it was 49.4 kilos—that includes poultry and game.
Dr. Summerskill: And offal.
Mr. Eccles: If one takes the present ration of 8d. and with it buys the maximum amount of butcher's meat at the cheapest price, and then include corned beef and bacon, that comes to 12 oz. a week or 17 kilos a year. Can the right hon. Lady say what the present total consumption is, adding in the poultry, game and offal? I suggest that it is not more than 30 kilos a head.
Dr. Summerskill: Surely the hon. Gentleman's point was that the people
1896
to whom he referred were living on a higher standard than we were. To say that these other things such as poultry and game are included is only a debating point. I am comparing like with like. I am comparing the meat and the poultry available in one country with the meat and poultry available here, and I think that is a fair comparison.
Mr. Eccles: I am asking the right hon. Lady what is the figure today. The figures she gave were based on 18 months or two years ago. What is the figure today?
Dr. Summerskill: It is quite impossible at this moment to give the latest figures.
4.47 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: In her peroration the Parliamentary Secretary offered felicitations and greetings to the housewives. I am sure that after her speech the housewives owe very little thanks to her. I should like to extend my felicitations to her on two points to which she referred in her speech. One is the contract which may come off with Mexico, and the other is the contract for 2,500 tons of pig meat from France. I only hope that when the contract with Mexico is completed, she will ensure that her purchasers do not buy meat from cattle suffering from foot-and-mouth disease, because during the last two years in Mexico there has been one of the worst outbreaks of that disease in history.
There are other matters to which the right hon. Lady referred and which impressed me somewhat. One felt that if the relations between her Ministry and the Ministry of Agriculture had been closer we would not have had the sort of muddle she made about the time it takes to get beef on to the table or about the period of gestation. I only hope that we do not have to eat elephant meat. On the whole, the figures she gave were extremely alarming and much more alarming than some people may have anticipated. As far as I can see, even if there is some resumption of the Argentine contract, the total figures for meat consumption in this country this year will be under 1,600,000 tons according to the figures which she gave. In view of the fact that there is an increase of 2 million in the population of this country, the consumption figure which I believe should be the target in order to

1897
get back to the 1938 standard is nothing less than 3 million tons of meat per year. We shall be getting about half.
The right hon. Lady attempted to anticipate a great many of the remarks which we on this side of the Committee were going to make about bulk purchase. Ever since 1945 there have been reports, confirmed by the Minister today, about the intractable nature of the meat shortage in the world. I saw President Peron during a Parliamentary mission, and he spoke of the shortage of meat and the absorption of meat in South America and in the neighbouring countries, but when the right hon. Lady talks about a balanced diet for the Argentine workers, she excels even Evita Peron, because in the Argentine they are receiving 299 lb. of meat per annum. Tell that to the housewives of this country. Then there are Venezuela and Bolivia, which used to export cattle but do not do so now. The same is true of Chile and of the United States. The facts are there, and they have to be faced.
The case we make is a simple one as regards bulk purchases. It is that all the trends which should have been counteracted by Government policy have in fact been exaggerated. It should have been foreseen that the one great shortage in the world's agriculture would be meat. Where there is a rise in the standard of living, with industrialisation and so on, there is a bigger demand for meat and milk. Wherever people in the world eat cereals, whether it is tortilla or chupatty, the demand has been met, but what has not been met is the new demands for meat and milk. The Government have disregarded these facts throughout. The crux of our attack on the Government, regardless of whether they have the best experts and brains, is that their overall policy has been entirely wrong for the last four years.
Look what has happened in the Argentine. There is a much greater consumption of meat and milk, and where the Government's bulk purchasing policy has gone wrong is in not seeing that an increase in payment for beef went to the Argentine farmers. That was done under the 1946 agreement, in which Señor Erlordi, the Argentine Minister of Agriculture, was concerned. I spoke to the Argentine farmers, and they are in favour of this country. They
1898
like us, but it is the Governments that have been at fault. The Argentine Government were on the defensive against our bulk purchase. In May, 1948, Señor Miranda said that the reason he had started bulk selling was because we had started bulk buying. If we had gone in and insisted—and that is the point of bulk purchasing—that something was pushed out to the Argentine farmers, there would have been an increase in the meat for this country. But what has happened?
We have made two main errors. The first was not to see that the increase in price went direct to the producers of meat, and the second was failure to appreciate that the great shortage was not going to be in cereals but meat. Furthermore, our Government have failed to use that knowledge of an impending surplus in cereals to build up our cattle stocks in this country for the time when these coarse grains would be available. We should have insisted that the farmers in the Argentine got an increase in price, and we should have foreseen that the great shortage was to be meat. In point of fact, we have paid a cheap price for meat in the Argentine and a high price for the feedingstuffs, with the result that the production of feedingstuffs goes up and meat production goes down.
The same thing has happened to a certain extent in the case of Australia. If we had paid a slightly higher price to the farmers direct, there would have been a bigger supply of sheep. The Government's intervention, far from adjusting the normal trend of production in favour of this country, has done exactly the opposite—it has decreased the supply of meat available. At the same time, the Government have made no preparations for the absorption of the feedingstuffs that have automatically become available.
Mr. S. N. Evans: I am very interested in the hon. Member's arguments, because I was in the Argentine with him. I am wondering how we could have imposed these conditions on the Argentine Government. How can we compel them to pay higher prices to their farmers? Would that not be interfering with the political and economic affairs of a foreign country?
Mr. Fraser: There was a side payment in 1946 that was paid direct to the Argentine farmers.
The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): No. That is just the difficulty. My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. We very much wish these payments had been made to the Argentine farmers, but the Argentine is, after all, a sovereign State and we cannot control its Government.
Mr. Fraser: I will come back to that point later. I want to refer now to the internal position in this country. However the negotiations go with the Argentine, and in spite of the ridiculously small amount of meat the right hon. Lady referred to in the case of Mexico and France, there is this enormous gap which has to be met, and chiefly by home production. That is the main issue. How is this to be done? Again and again the Minister was pressed to make some statement about the position of feedingstuffs, but no answer was given, or at least there was a very half-hearted reply that there would be an increase of feedingstuffs. The right hon. Lady did not contradict what my right hon. Friend said about the broken pledge of the Lord President of the Council, and she gave no hope beyond the fact that the pig ration could be maintained at its present level, which is ridiculously low in view of the world position.
I want to turn to the question of home production of beef, which as the Minister now realises is not dependent on imported feedingstuffs except in the case of oil for making winter oil cake. There has been a grievous and dangerous decline in our stock from 2 million cattle killed per year to 1½ million. We believe that there can be a very great expansion and development, and that this expansion and development should have been begun when the Government first appreciated that there was to be a world meat shortage. It should have begun two or three years ago, but that is precisely what did not happen. It has begun to a certain extent now, but there is still this grievous gap to be made up.
I come from the Highlands of Scotland, which is a great area where something more could be done. The conditions which apply there probably apply also to areas in Wales and to certain parts of England. In the old days there used to be a far larger cattle population in the Highlands than there is today.
Mr. James Hudson: Who threw it away?
Mr. Fraser: We have to go into these things. I would remind the Committee that Sir Thomas More said in 1530 that sheep eat men, and that there is a song still sung in the Highlands in praise of foxes, because foxes kill sheep and sheep are the enemy of man. The sheep died out and the land became forests. What we need now is more cattle in the Highlands, together with sheep. One of the troubles has been that there are now large areas of bracken, and this also applies to other parts of the country, but cattle can do much to reclaim land. The hill-farming scheme, which is most welcome, although a little late, has done a great deal, but it does not apply in general to cattle. It applies largely to sheep. I believe that the Government should pay proper attention to the use of marginal land. Much of our marginal land is now being wasted. If it were properly used it would go some way towards meeting the present situation, which is likely to get worse.
The right hon. Lady gave the House and housewives of the country some extremely depressing news today. I believe that the ration can be built up chiefly by the importation of feedingstuffs for pigs and further widening the hill-farming scheme to include cattle schemes. Beef-eating Englishmen have become forced vegetarians. In our new almost fakir-like state of austerity, the steer is a sacred animal, and the pig an untouchable which can only be sacrificed at certain phases of the moon, in the presence of some of the high priests of this "Ministry of Mumbo-Jumbo."
5.2 p.m.
Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: The account which the Parlamentary Secretary gave to the House was even more gloomy than I expected. The immediate prospect is bad, and the right hon. Lady could not hold out any hope of a very much better state of affairs for years to come. The Opposition and the country may well criticise the Government for not having foreseen the present situation earlier. It will come as a considerable shock to the public that the cut in the meat ration is likely to continue, that it may become more severe and that the long-term outlook is so bad. Even if we were to increase home production to the extent which is planned we

1901
shall only reach a figure equal to the pre-war production figure. If foreign supplies cannot be maintained or increased, if, indeed, they are not decreased, it means that we cannot get back to prewar rations by 1952. If my calculations are wrong I hope the Minister will put me right, and that the position will be clearly explained.
It is rather late in the day, but I believe that the answer is to tell the public what the situation is now and what it is likely to be in future. There is great uncertainty about what will happen in connection with the large block of imports from the Argentine. But apart from that, the only big possible increase is from the Australian scheme which requires very large capital expenditure and a long time in which to develop. From experience of large-scale schemes of this sort we have learned not to expect that they will go faster than the programme. Australia has her own special difficulties; she is very much subject to drought, and there may be severe setbacks in the progress of that scheme. Nevertheless, I hope the Australian project will go ahead. There is some bacon to come from there, but not much, I understand. When the Queensland bacon scheme gets going I believe it will produce about 40,000 tons. That will be a help. We need all these quantities, of course, but they are very small.
I do not consider that the question of bulk purchase is very relevant to this discussion. The real problem is the shortage of meat and the rising standard of living. It may be more efficient to buy some commodities through the Government, and it may be more efficient to buy others through private enterprise. For my part, I do not believe that it makes a very great deal of difference to the quantity we get, unless we have been trying to buy meat too cheaply. That seems to be the conclusion to be reached not only from the Argentine default, but from other South American defaults. It may well be that the case against bulk buying is not that it is extravagant, but that it is too economical. By that I do not mean to suggest that we should give way to the Argentine, and pay whatever price they demand, but, on the other hand, I do not believe that a consumers' strike would do very much good. The cattle in the Argentine would still roam about while we were on strike, so that
1902
the effort to bring the Argentine Government to heel would be unsuccessful. I do not wish to go into that further now except to reiterate that the political issue for or against bulk buying is not really one which affects the size of our ration unless, as I have said, we have been trying to buy too cheaply.
Trying to buy too cheaply may be one of the symptoms that we are today a poor country. From most people that fact is disguised by very large food subsidies and social welfare legislation, which I support. Nevertheless, it results in the public not realising that we, as a country, are poor and that the ultimate answer to the question of how to get more imports is the old and dull answer, "By producing more exports." I believe we could get more meat, certainly more bacon from Canada, if we could increase our textile exports to that country. I should like to know whether this is the case, because it is important. Is it the overall dollar shortage which makes it unlikely that we shall get the quantity of bacon from Canada that we require?
Mr. Strachey: No, this is a question of bacon supply. The Canadians cannot supply us with what we are prepared to pay for. The difficulty there is in the supply.
Mr. Roberts: Is that because their own consumption has gone up? Or are they selling that bacon to the United States as they are selling their increased stocks of beef?
Mr. Strachey: Both.
Mr. Roberts: Both? Then again we are not offering a high enough price. It is fair to say that it comes down ultimately to the fact that we are not exporting enough. We are a poor country. We have to work harder to get our food. In the past, the food producers all over the world, in my opinion, had a very raw deal. Nowadays, except in such places as Argentina and perhaps some others where the Government system prevents the producers from taking advantage of the increased demand, the producer is getting more.
That brings me to the home producer. I wonder whether increased prices for beef and mutton have not been rather

1903
long delayed. It may be easy to be wise after the event, but probably if we had had higher prices for mutton and beef in this country for the last two years, we should have had a larger supply of mutton and beef than at the present time.
I wonder if the Government are even now being sufficiently generous. I wonder whether, if we do face a bleak outlook, the right thing to do is not to increase prices to the home farmer even more. There is no question of foreign exchange involved there and not very much question of imported animal feedingstuffs. Since half of the subsidy on animal feedingstuffs has been taken off, the price has gone up so much in the last week that the agricultural community have, I believe, a very much clearer idea of the real situation. The hon. Member for Stone (Mr. H. Fraser) said that the Argentine producer had received a poor price for his beef—not that we are paying a poor price—and a better price for his cereal and on that account produced more cereal. All I can say is that the Argentine Government, if they sell cereals, must have been getting a fantastic price for them in the past. If the British farmer today were paying the full price for feedingstuffs we would have a very much clearer picture of the value of them and of the cost to this country of buying feedingstuffs from abroad. The fact that half the subsidies has been taken off, will go some way towards that end.
For mutton and beef very little imported animal feedingstuffs are needed. The development since the early part of the war of improved grassland management is the answer to the mutton and beef problem in this country. Just as in any other part of the world, if we are to make a substantial increase in our own beef production we must spend a great deal by way of capital to get it, upon improved grassland, for example. There is all the difference in the world between good and bad grassland. We must spend capital on farm buildings, on workers' buildings, on farmhouses, water supplies and roads, and, in fact, on all things that have to be done in Australia, with the exception of building railways and ports. If we are to get a big increase, which I am certain we could get, in this country, we must have capital expenditure first.
1904
It would mean that mutton and beef would be produced out of the resources of this country with the very minimum of feedingstuffs. That is much the safest way for us to get our mutton and beef.
In regard to pigs, we must have cereal. To increase them much further we must have more feedingstuffs. The same is true of poultry, which, although they do not technically produce meat, do, as we have been told, produce a protein food which is a substitute for meat. I believe that the trend of British farming is to use grass, in the form of silage and dried grass, very much more for milk production than has been done in the past, and to use it for beef production. I believe that we can get more supplies of cereals, thus saving on our dollar exchange, and use them for pig and poultry production. I believe there is still a very great increase possible in British beef production. I believe that the increased number of calves is a rather doubtful figure. Nobody knows exactly what the increase is, but there has been a considerable increase in the number of calves as a result of the calf subsidy scheme.
My point is that there could be a much greater increase still if a campaign were launched now similar to the campaign undertaken in 1940. If a real appeal were made to British farmers to meet the meat problem I believe that our farmers could make a much greater contribution than they are making today. I believe that it could be made without buying foreign feedingstuffs and without spending dollars, and that it would result in a permanent contribution to the wealth of the country.
5.18 p.m.
Mr. Royle: I am sure that most Members of the Committee will agree with the latter part of the speech made by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) in regard to the use of grassland and dried grass, particularly for the feeding of cattle and sheep. I am equally certain that the stressing of imported feedingstuffs by the official Opposition is very greatly exaggerated, so far as cattle and sheep are concerned. The situation is very different in relation to pigs and poultry, but our concern at the moment is the production of more cattle. I am sure that the hon. Member for North Cumberland is correct in his assumptions.

1905
Earlier in his speech the hon. Member joined forces with the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. H. Fraser) who suggested that the Government had not been sufficiently far-sighted in allowing the present situation to develop. I would remind the Committee that the present Government have been responsible for four years, so far as the state of the country's meat supply is concerned. I am at a loss to understand how the Government could be blamed for lack of foresight during that time and how they can be held responsible for the situation in which we find ourselves.
Perhaps I speak more feelingly than any Member of the Committee on the subject of shortage of meat. When I was last behind the block or the counter I was serving to the community a 1s. 2d. ration. In all conscience that was bad enough to serve. We had many headaches and heartaches about it. I would remind the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) that while it may be true that the overall allocation of meat is considerably lower today than it was before the war, it is equally true, and it is a fact of which we must not lose sight, that masses of our people in the industrial areas were getting very much less meat before the war than they are getting today. I say that deliberately and advisedly. I know that in my own constituency, I know that in constituencies exactly like mine, I know from returns from my own shops—and we took very close records and great care about it—that at that time, in 1938, the average spending in some shops was 11d. per family per week. That was in one of the poorest of the industrial districts in the North of England.
Mr. Wadsworth: I wonder if the hon. Member will give us some idea of what 11d. worth of meat was—how many pounds?
Mr. Royle: Obviously, it depended upon the type of meat bought. I can illustrate the point better this way. Perhaps on a Saturday afternoon a housewife would come into the shop to buy half a pound or three-quarters of a pound of stewing meat, the cheapest she could buy, and then, with some onions and some carrots and a lot of potatoes, she would cook the family dinner for the week-end. That is the way in which
1906
thousands of people in this country were existing in the days before the war. We have not to lose sight of the fact that distribution is an important point in what we are discussing. At the present time the Government are entitled to the credit for the fact that under the distribution methods of today everybody in the country is getting at least a share of what meat is available.
I want to stress for the benefit of hon. Members opposite the fact that so far as those people are concerned we are in a very much better position than we were. Therefore, I am interested in their reactions at the moment, and I am informed—and I am quite certain it is right—that the reaction of the mass of our people to the present position is twofold. They either come into the shop and jokingly say, "Shall we come once a month to buy our rations?" or alternatively they say, "In these circumstances we are not prepared to capitulate to a country which is holding us up to ransom." I am quite certain that that is the reaction of our people. I am quite sure that that is their mood at the present time.
The Opposition have two complaints: first the shortage of feedingstuffs, with which the hon. Member for North Cumberland has dealt today, and second, the Government's bulk buying policy. I was very interested to notice that today the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington did not stress too much the question of bulk purchases. It occurs to me that the Opposition are becoming very shy about this matter. Whilst in the Press and from the back benches of the Conservative Party we constantly have criticisms of the bulk purchasing policy of the Government, it yet almost appears that they are leaving that criticism now—perhaps, leaving it for the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers).
Mr. Dodds-Parker: Let me point out to the hon. Member that we are arguing in this Debate with one hand tied behind our backs, as it were, because of the negotiations that are going on in the Argentine at the moment.
Mr. Royle: That is not a point on which to interrupt me. So far as the delicacy of the negotiations is concerned, I shall avoid that subject.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: They are based on State trading.
Mr. Royle: There are other parts of the world where bulk buying continues, and we are bulk buying in very great quantities from New Zealand, we must not forget. It has been the Opposition's line in the past that it is largely due to the Government's bulk buying policy that we find ourselves in our present situation. I want to suggest that there is not an atom of truth in that. I am going to suggest that, if it were not for the bulk purchasing by the Government at this time, we should find ourselves in a very much worse situation than that in which we are. The Opposition are comparing the present shortage with what they describe as the palmier days of the war. They need to be reminded once more of the Lend-Lease that operated during the war.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: What about Marshall Aid?
Mr. Royle: All right, what about Marshall Aid? At all events, we are not getting meat from the United States of America at the present time, as we were during the war under Lend-Lease.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: Why do we not get feedingstuffs?
Mr. Royle: True it was that we were getting a considerable amount of not very useful meat during the war, but we were getting thousands of tons of meat from the United States then, which assisted the then Minister of Food very considerably in his provision of meat in this country. Without Lend-Lease the ration in 1943 and 1944 would have been very small indeed. It may be true to say—I have not examined it very carefully—but it may be true to say that the ration at spring time in most of the war years would have been worse than it is at the present time—eight penny worth of carcass meat and two penny worth of corned meat—had it not been for the assistance coming from the United States in the form of Lend-Lease.
Since the Opposition talk about the lack of foresight on the part of the Government I take them back in time to 1940. I was then a very humble officer in the Meat and Livestock Division of the Ministry of Food. I remember how, during the autumn of 1940, the Government of the day increased the price for
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cattle—and not only butchers' cattle and good beef cattle, but for all cattle—coming into the collecting centres, so that the result was that there was as much milk running down the flags of the slaughterhouses as there was blood. That is not an exaggeration. During the autumn of 1940 the dairy cattle were pouring into the slaughterhouses. I refer hon. Members to a Question which was asked at that time of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food by the right hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood). He asked:
"Whether he is aware that farmers are at present sending in so many animals for slaughter that there will be a shortage of home-produced animals next spring; and whether he will stop this by indicating to centres how many beasts they are to take? …"
The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), who at that time was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, replied:
"This is the time of the year when home-produced meat is always most plentiful, but I am aware that farmers have been sending in for slaughter more fat animals than usual. For the last two weeks limits have been imposed on the numbers of beasts accepted at the collecting centres, and similar limits will be continued so long as entries are exceptionally heavy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th October, 1940; Vol. 365, c. 271–272.]
How did they deal with that limitation? The Government of the day dealt with it by pushing the meat ration up to 2s. 2d. from ls. 10d. and in addition to the amount of cattle pouring into the British farms they continued to dish out from the cold stores meat which had been imported from across the Atlantic at the cost of many British lives.
Mr. Baldwin: The autumn of 1940 was when the ploughing campaign was at its height and the British farmers had to get rid of their cattle, willy-nilly.
Mr. Royle: I agree, but in spite of that there was a complete lack of foresight in regard to the building up of our stocks, and there was not the same difficulty with regard to the feedingstuffs as applies today because there was no dollar shortage. So we increased the ration to 2s. 2d., and I remember that in spite of the 2s. 2d. ration we were asking butchers to take another body of beef over and above the ration because of the flood of cattle at that time. If that was an

1909
example of foresight, under the rule of Lord Woolton, then I think that the record of the present Government in that respect is a very brilliant one.
Mr. Hurd: Eightpence against 2s. 2d.
Mr. Royle: Those incidents were, in my view, the most blatant examples of lack of foresight in all our rationing affairs. That happened when feeding-stuffs were less difficult to get, dollar expenditure was not involved, we still had investments in the Argentine, and our cold stores were well stocked with frozen meat.
Today those conditions do not apply as a direct result of that lack of foresight and lack of planning, and we are suffering, from that after eight years. I am quite sure that the incidents of that autumn had a tremendous influence on the stocks of the country at the present time. We have today to deal with the problem of home production and importation. The question of feedingstuffs has been adequately dealt with and will probably be further dealt with by other hon. Members. Therefore, I want to say a few words on the question of importation.
I would point out that so far as carcass meat is concerned, the Government are backing the "right horse." They have switched over from the Argentine to New Zealand. I think that I can claim that I am playing my part at the moment with regard to the abolition of the trading in horse meat. By a slip of the tongue one can sometimes put oneself in a rather peculiar position. So far as carcass meat is concerned, in the pre-war years we imported from the Argentine 21 per cent. of our needs and we have now dropped to 19 per cent. In the case of New Zealand, they were providing us with 12 per cent. of our total needs, whereas in 1948 we imported from them 23 per cent. of our needs. It would appear that my right hon. Friend has become a trading imperialist and taken all that credit from the other side of the Committee.
Apart from the Commonwealth, our sources of supply are almost negligible except from the Argentine. While it is difficult to deal with the Argentine question at all, it does bring me to say a few
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words about bulk purchase. The Opposition say "Send the right men, leave it to private enterprise and we will get the meat." I wonder if they would get one pound more meat from New Zealand if private enterprise rather than bulk purchase was dealing with it. I wonder whether we would get another one pound of meat from the Argentine if the buying was in the hands of private enterprise. I wonder how private buyers would manage to purchase meat from bulk sellers.
Private buying seems to me to be a very ridiculous system. I would like to have a look at the form of private enterprise which we had in the Argentine in the days before the war. The same people owned the stock yards, the factories, the refrigeration and the meat boats, and they had wholesalers in Britain. Even then they were entering into the realms of distribution to the detriment of the smaller trader. When the "Daily Express" set up The Council of Retail Distributors and sent the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) all over the country to boost it, it was to protect the small retailer from the Co-ops. But not a word was said about the Vestey Group and Union Cold Storage vying with the same small trader for the retail trade.
I suggest that the pre-war set-up of buying meat from the Argentine was the wickedest type of bulk purchase and bulk selling ever devised. I would refer the Committee to the report of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into Anglo-Argentine Meat Trade, published in October, 1938, in Command Paper 5839. On page 5 of that document it states that only three firms, Sansenina, Poels and Packing House Products, did not definitely refuse to give facilities to collect the evidence necessary for the inquiry. In 1937 we took 90 per cent. of Argentina's meat exports. Out of that, 85 per cent. was in the hands of six companies—Armour, Swift, Wilson, British and Argentine, which is, of course, the Union Cold Storage, Smithfield and Argentine and Sansenina.
These firms were the sole importers of meat from the Argentine to this country. Did they compete one with the other? Not on your life! It is true that there was a meat war between April, 1925, and June, 1927, but apart from that the report says that "The importers have always worked together." I wish that

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I had a little more time to discuss with the Committee the report to which I have referred. I must, however, content myself, because I have been on my feet for a long time, by saying this: The companies bought the cattle and sheep and killed them in their own premises; they chilled and froze them in their own refrigerators, and they shipped them in their own ships to the wholesale buyers. They bought 81 per cent. of the meat coming into this country, and they sold 80 per cent. of that meat to retailers and the other 20 per cent. was sold to the jobbers.
In the course of that free enterprise, according to this report, they managed to make a net profit of 16 per cent. on sales out of the British consumers. What is worrying me at the present time with regard to these gentry is that we as a Government are still paying heavy compensation to them for the loss of their business in the realms of importation and wholesale trade. These are the great examples of private enterprise and freedom—private enterprise, forsooth!
I want to devote the last part of my speech to making a few suggestions. In long-term policy we have to concentrate on home production as never before. I believe that we have to give more feeding-stuffs to the British farmer. At the same time, I believe that we must ask the British farmer to rise to the occasion, which he has failed to do so far.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am afraid that the British farmer is certainly not doing as well as he might do with what is available in his production of meat for this country.
Captain Crookshank: What evidence has the hon. Member for saying that?
Mr. Royle: The evidence I have is that, in spite of what has been learned in the days of the war and since the war in the use of alternative feedingstuffs, our livestock population is not increasing at anything like the rate at which it might increase. I am worried also about consumption by people like self-suppliers, who are certainly using for their own purposes meat which could be, and ought to be used to better advantage for the community as a whole.
Mr. Turton: What, beef?
Mr. Royle: We are talking about meat; it is the meat ration that is reduced to 10d. not the beef ration.
There are some suggestions I should like to make for the short-term. I suggest that there should be some concentration on pig production. I think we could do that safely over 12 months, and to some degree forget a lot of our beef feeding, because of the quick maturing of these smaller animals. If it were possible, I suggest that we use them for pork rather than for bacon. Secondly, I want to make an appeal, and I think the Government should make an appeal, to self-suppliers and pig clubs for a less selfish attitude, and for them to give a greater proportion to the community. If needs be. I would ask self-suppliers for two out of three pigs and pig clubs for five out of six. I think that might be done by regulation if it is not done voluntarily, because we need drastic steps in a serious situation of this sort. I would see to it that everything which goes to the ration in the form of meat should be economical rationing stuff. We get certain classes of beef, particularly, and some mutton that is not suitable for the ration, and which would be much more economically used if handed over for manufacturing. The nation would benefit greatly by that.
My last word is on the subject of Eire. We could do very much better in that regard. At the moment it appears to me that we are relying on Irish and English cattle dealers to purchase the cattle for us in places like Dublin Market. I have seen 4,000 good cattle standing in Dublin Market bought by buyers from the Continent. They were paying fancy prices, but not prices we could not approach. In October of last year they were paying 93s. a live cwt., when at the same time a farmer in this country was receiving from the British Ministry of Food for the same grade cattle 103s. a live cwt., including the subsidy.
The dealer in Dublin Market buying for England is handicapped because he has to pit his own judgment against the judgment of an English grader in an English collecting centre, maybe two months later, and he is afraid that he will not get the price for the animals that he has paid in Dublin Market. I think that the solution of that problem is an extension of the system of bulk buying between Government and Govern-

1913
ment, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it might be worth while reopening negotiations with the Government of Eire to see whether an arrangement could not be reached by which they would purchase the cattle from their producers at an agreed price—95s. or 96s. a live cwt. for any cattle suitable for our ration. I am quite sure that by such an arrangement there could be a real flow of cattle into this country from Eire, because it is very largely the price question which prevents agreement.
I apologise to the Committee for speaking for so long. It is not my custom to address the Committee at this length. In apologising, I hope hon. Members will feel that the subject is one in which I am very deeply interested and of which I have some knowledge, and I did want to make those suggestions to the Minister. My very final words are these: Please consider the poor butcher in all these circumstances; remember the difficulties he is having to face, and that it requires much more skill to cut a 10d. ration than a 1s. 10d. ration; he ought to be fully considered in every way that the Ministry of Food can consider him.
5.46 p.m.
Mr. Snadden: We all sympathise with the hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle), who is so deeply interested in the particular line upon which he has discoursed. I personally have the same feelings, although from a rather different viewpoint, being myself a producer of the thing that is today very scarce. When the Parliamentary Secretary began her speech she almost challenged my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who opened the Debate, by saying that the Opposition could not put up anything constructive. I hope that before sitting down I shall have answered, first the hon. Member for West Salford in regard to the criticism he made over the producer of beef not rising to his job, and secondly the point that the Opposition are unable to put up a constructive suggestion to meet our present difficulties.
Whatever this Debate has done so far, it has at any rate brought home to me that the policy pursued by our Government and by the Argentine has at last driven home to the House of Commons, and I hope to the country, that to allow
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ourselves to become dependent upon a foreign country for our meat supplies is folly, and that to neglect our own vast home resources is absolutely criminal. I do not intend to blame people for the present position. In point of fact, if I were being honest with myself, I should say that two Governments are to blame for our present position.
I am not in the least bit surprised to find that we are in this predicament. Ever since I entered this House I do not think I have ever before said, "I told you so," but away back in 1943, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) was Minister of Agriculture, I did rise from the benches opposite, when the meat ration was ls. 2d., to draw attention to the position that might be reached by this country after the war—and the war was by no means over then—if we pursued a home livestock policy with an excessive milk emphasis. I said that if we allowed ourselves to turn over too much from meat production to milk it would be found that there would be no beef produced in Great Britain by the end of the war, and that it would also be found that, for many reasons, overseas supplies would have fallen as well. I think that that is precisely what has happened.
I understand it was the policy of my right hon. Friend when Minister of Agriculture at that time to readjust the unbalance of our livestock economy; and although it is true to say that the present Government have faced difficulties that were not then foreseen—I am thinking of currency difficulties—there is no doubt that far more could have been done by this Government than has been done to shift the balance of our livestock economy so as to give more encouragement to those who are or were producers of beef in this country.
I know of no place in Britain where farmers are not still going over to milk. Away up in the Highlands of Scotland, where at one time milk production was almost unknown, many farmers are going into dairy farming, and vast areas of land simply ideal for the production of beef have now been turned into small dairy farms. Why? In my view there are three reasons. First of all because of the high price per gallon of milk and, secondly, because today there is no sur-

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plus. In the old days before the war the price of surplus milk was only 3d. and, therefore, the farmer said, "That is too little, I will rear beef cattle." Today the whole of that milk goes to the Milk Marketing Board. Thirdly, there is the quick cash return which the farmer receives every month from the Milk Marketing Board—very attractive ready money.
Contrast that with the job in front of the beef producer, a job which is a long and slow business. It takes a very long time for him to turn over his money. His capital expenditure is great, he has labour difficulties and he cannot get today the proper finishing materials to allow him to turn out his beef cattle. I am thinking of one particular economic aspect: If a farmer of any standing goes in a big way for the beef market, his economic need requires more than one turnover each year. He wants a turnover twice a year. and he can only do that if he is allowed to import into this country not coarse grains—as is so often thought by people—but high protein oil cake in order to give a quick finish and get the cattle turned out quickly twice instead of once a year. Today cattle are being stored in winter time, because there is not enough protein to feed them on for a double turnover. The farmer is drawn towards milk production, which is proving irresistible.
If we had been able to readjust our policy on the lines which I understood the Minister of Agriculture in the late Coalition Government had intended, we might have redressed the unbalance of our livestock economy. Today we would not have been nearly so dependent on foreign countries, and the British housewife would have had far more meat for her husband and family. The difficulty now is to try to suggest the best possible means of putting this thing right as quickly as possible. I shall forget about blaming the people who are responsible and I shall try to suggest what I think ought to be done.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Would the hon. Member tell us what effect his suggested policy would have on the production of milk?
Mr. Snadden: That would be a long story, but everyone will agree that today
1916
if milk were being produced by the right people and in the right place, it would be more economical. Personally, I do not think it would be found that there was any great decrease in the flow. But today many people, who really know nothing about it, are driven to it for the reasons I have already given, and it would be much better for them if they went into something about which they know a great deal more. However, that is a different question and I have not time to deal with it.
Looking at this subject from the practical point of view—I never look at it from any other—it is mostly a long-term problem though not entirely; part of it is short-term. It seems to me that it is an ill wind that blows nobody good. It may well be that the present position arising out of the Argentine attitude to this country, and the almost ridiculous position in which we find ourselves, may produce a beef-cattle awakening in this country and open the eyes of not only the Government but of all of us to the short-sightedness of our own policy—that is to be at the mercy of a foreign country when we have in our own hands all the resources necessary.
Anybody who has been following the world meat situation as I have to do for business reasons, must have detected long ago that a very curious change was taking place in the economy of the Argentine. The policy of the Peron Government is to carve up the estancias—to do away with the large estates and split the country up into a number of what one might call small, peasant holdings. That may be a very good thing for the Argentine—I do not know—but what we have to realise is that a very different system of farming is evolving in the Argentine, unsuitable to the export of meat on a large scale. For that reason I feel certain that if this policy is carried on, there will be less beef reared on the one hand, and less available for the world export trade on the other.
So, apart from prices, many people take the view that Argentine beef production will decline, or if it does not do that it will be tightened up severely because of the enormous increase in consumption in the greatest beef-eating country in the world. It may be that the Government have detected this already, because I noticed recently that they have been look-

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ing towards two other areas—South Africa and South Australia. It may be that information is coming from the Argentine to confirm what I have said, but if the Government are only learning it now, they are two years behind the times.
The Parliamentary Secretary will agree that we must not overstate this Argentine case. There is great danger in overstating it, because supplies coming from the Argentine, if my information is correct, are only equal to 2d. worth of our ration. What has happened in the Argentine cannot be allowed to camouflage the bareness of our own larder here at home, and the neglect of home production and of our home natural resources. Today, according to one of the Ministry of Food officials, a man for whom I have a very great admiration, Sir Henry Turner, Director of Meat Supplies, to whom I have listened on more than one occasion, allowing for our increased population, our annual supply of beef is 800,000 tons short of the pre-war scale and he tells us that home production is 400,000 tons down on pre-war output. Anyone can see that if we can even get back to the pre-war volume of British home produced meat, we have closed half the gap straight away without any increase on pre-war production.
I said a minute ago that this problem was in the main a long-term one. For that reason, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) pointed out, we cannot look either to Australia or to South Africa or, indeed, any other source outside Great Britain for any great quick spurt in our ration. There can be no substantial addition to the British ration unless we get our home policy right within the next 10 years. Clearly the answer is we have got to tackle this thing at home here in our own country, and I am perfectly certain, having done the job myself in spite of many handicaps, that given the resources and the incentives, the British farmer can produce a far bigger increase in our meat supplies than any outside source, and he can produce it in a far shorter space of time.
What are the steps that should be taken to remedy what is a desperate situation for a meat-eating country like ours, full of heavy industries where the men and
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women must get a certain amount of protein in their diet if they are to do their hard work? It is a problem partly short-term and partly long-term in character. The first and the most obvious thing is to turn to the pig, because the pig gives us the quickest answer. Of course, the crux of the pig business is feedingstuffs. I am not going into that, but it seems to me strange that France can offer us pig meat, which has been raised upon American maize, and it seems equally queer that Eire is able to make a contract for half a million tons of maize. I do not understand how that can be and why we cannot get it here. Our feedingstuffs, including fish meal, must be given priority if we are to solve the short-term problem of the pig.
But anyone who imagines that an increase in the pig population or even pig fattening will solve the problem is living in a fool's paradise. We are merely scratching the back of the problem. It is beef that the British people want—or mutton. Steak or lamb is what they are after and, what is more, I think they would willingly pay for it if they could get it, but the appalling thing is they cannot get it. I would say to the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that if we do not face up to the problem now we shall have to endure perhaps 10 years of the meagre meat ration on which we are living today, a ration which, whatever may be said, is totally unworthy of a great country like this.
The next step is to tackle far more vigorously than it has yet been tackled the business of righting the unbalance of our livestock economy in this country. The mere fact that the Government had to introduce a calf subsidy payable at the age of 12 months is sufficient evidence that there is something very far wrong with beef production. This is a calf subsidy introduced to bribe the feeder—not the breeder but the feeder—to carry cattle on to the beef stage because they are not real beef cattle. We are bribing those men to do something they do not want to do. These animals are of doubtful beef potentiality but because of the subsidy the farmers carry them on.
You can correct the balance between beef and milk—the first short-term thing to be done—by doing two things. You must give the producer of beef a fair crack of the whip on two counts. You must review the whole price structure for

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the reasons which I have given. I said that the appeal of milk production was irresistible. Either the price of milk must come down or the price of beef must go up. I do not want to see the price of milk come down. If the price of beef does not go up in order to allow the producer to compete with milk on a reasonable basis, I predict that in a fairly reasonable space of time we shall have nothing but dairy farmers in Great Britain. Therefore, the first thing to do is to tackle the price structure in order to give an incentive to the producer of beef who has left that business and gone into the dairy farming industry.
The second thing to be done is to give the producer of beef a fair crack of the whip in terms of feedingstuffs. At the present moment the dairy farmer gets protein feedingstuffs in respect of the gallonage of milk sold. The producer of beef gets nothing at all. The producer of beef has to sell protein feedingstuffs off his own farm in order to get back half the amount of protein by way of cake. If he sells a ton of beans, which are high in protein content, he will get 10 cwt. of linseed cake in return. That position is very different from that of the dairy farmer; the consequence is that the producer of beef is denied the finishing material necessary to make the feeding of beef in winter—that is our problem—an economic proposition because of his failure to get a quick turnover.
Having put the price right, we should give him proper feedingstuffs. We must give him the incentive and the tools to do the job; and we must not forget that we have in this country a great reservoir from which we can draw our own raw material. It is not much good contemplating producing more meat for the nation unless we are certain that we have a reservoir to produce the raw materials. That reservoir has existed for years and has been waiting to be exploited as I have exploited it in a fairly big way since 1937. I know that it can be done, and I challenge any hon. Member to say that it cannot be done economically. Away up in the Highlands of Scotland—the same applies in England and Wales—I have found is possible to double the stock-carrying capacity of hill land over 1,000 feet up in a comparatively short space of time.
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Professor Ellison, speaking the other day at an important meeting in London, showed that there were millions of acres in England, Wales and Scotland which, if properly exploited, could raise hundreds of thousands of store cattle of a beef type in very quick time. I am speaking of marginal lands as well as hill lands. Professor Ellison estimated—I believe fairly accurately and perhaps conservatively—that we could turn out 250,000 store cattle per million acres of land improved. That gives some idea of what we can do. We have 16 million acres of such land, 10 million acres in Scotland, five million acres in England and one million acres in Wales. Professor Ellison tells us, and he should know, that in Wales alone 500,000 acres of marginal land could be improved by ploughing alone.
What about our deer forest lands? I do not want to raise the question of food versus sport or anything else. Surely food must come first. Our deer forest lands in Scotland, from Fort William all the way up the west to Sutherlandshire, could carry enormous numbers of cattle if we exploited them, not to speak of I do not know how many thousands of a certain type of sheep. In those areas there is what is known as a heavy storm loss, and if the Government went in for that sort of thing it might be necessary to do something about facing abnormal storm losses at high altitudes to help the farmer to meet that special difficulty. Wool also comes into the deer forest picture.
What prevents ordinary farmers tackling this job? I would suggest three things. First, there is the capital outlay involved, which is considerable. Secondly there is the lack of confidence in the future because "milk is the thing." Thirdly, there is no financial inducement on a long-term basis. When speaking about Australia my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) asked specifically about a guarantee being given to Australia. I agree with that, but what about a guarantee to our own people? How can we expect them to launch into an experiment of equivalent size without a long-term guarantee that they will not be let down at some distant date?
All this does not mean that the problem is so big that something cannot be

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done now. I can suggest four things to be done now. I would first suggest that the Government review the legislation which we already have upon the Statute Book covering all the kinds of lands about which I have been talking, marginal lands and hill lands. In regard to the hill cattle subsidy scheme, in order to increase the reservoir, the Government might have to restore the terms which were in operation two years ago. When that change was made two years ago, it might have been quite a good change. All the money was put on the breeding cow. I should not like to see that go down, but I should like to see a restoration of assistance to all farmers in using these altitudes for grazing purposes, knowing that cattle on these altitudes do very much less well than others and therefore these farmers should have assistance. I believe the marginal assistance scheme now in operation has not been extended sufficiently to embrace certain types of land which might be included, and the hill sheep subsidy scheme could also be made much less rigid than it is today. The main aim all the way through must be to build up the largest possible amount of breeding cattle on the lands I have described, but we must also remember that that is only half the problem.
The other thing we have to do when we have the cattle, is to make sure that when they go downstairs, as we say in Scotland, to be finished off, that they can be finished. Cattle cannot be finished off in winter with home-grown feedingstuffs on an economic basis at present, and that is why the tap is turned off after the grass season is over. One can feed grass with manure in order to take the place of the cake with which we used to feed in the old days because it improves the grass, puts more content into it, and the cattle can be fattened. But when the grass is over, the tap is turned off, and the yards are only storing the cattle for the next summer. It is an uneconomic proposition because they have not got sufficient high protein, linseed cotton, groundnut cake—whatever you like—to finish these animals quickly enough to make it economic.
So I come to the end of what I have to say. I would summarise it this way. First, the pig; second, get back the big arable farmer into beef production; he is the only farmer who can really turn
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out cattle in a big enough number to make it an economic proposition. Anyone who wants to lose money quickly should go into that business unless he can turn them out in such quantities as to be able to take a very small profit on his turnover. That is what I found in my own experience. Then we have to see that we get the big arable farmer back into the business. We must give him the finishing material in order to turn them out quickly enough to make it an economic proposition.
Having got that going, tackle this question of the great reservoir of the 16 million acres of grassland in Britain and then we shall have produced the raw material. So we have the reservoir, the raw material, and the factory as well to turn out the stock, and that is a lot more than we have in terms of other commodities about which we talk a good deal. Many times I have asked for it. A definite long-term policy on this big question is needed. It may be that a Royal Commission is required upon it. I believe that suggestion was made in another place. Let us get on with it. If we dither over it and keep fiddling around with it, as we are doing at the present time, I predict that we shall have to exist for many years on the most miserable pittance of meat that this nation has ever known in the whole of its history.
6.15 p.m.
Mr. Kenyon: I think the Committee has listened to one of the most constructive speeches on this subject that we have heard in all these Debates. The hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) has put his finger on the real issue in dealing with this subject. Although I do not altogether agree with some of his conclusions, I find myself in so much agreement with his speech that I shall try to follow it constructively as I go along.
We find in agriculture today a tremendous clash between milk and beef, and that is the source of our difficulties. The reason is that in milk production the farmer has his milk cheque month by month. He has something to carry him on, he can meet his accounts, he can make progress and extend his business because his milk cheque comes in regularly. The beef farmer, on the other hand, has to set out on beef breeding and it is three years before he obtains

1923
his first return and then he obtains it annually. So he has to exist on capital—often borrowed capital—for the first three years. Borrowed capital plus interest puts a burden on him for many years, and the result is that any farmer who possibly can do so turns to milk. As the hon. Member has said, milk is today being produced on farms where it ought not to be produced. It has been produced on the beef farms and the mutton farms, and we have to find some solution that will enable the beef farmer and the sheep farmer to carry on financially secure until they can draw from their outlay.
Very often when I hear the Minister of Food and his Parliamentary Secretary speaking upon agriculture, cold shivers run down my back, but when I heard the Parliamentary Secretary today say that they had extended the period of gestation for the cow by two months, I almost fainted. That simply shows that we cannot separate the Ministry of Food from the Ministry of Agriculture. They are inter-related and must work together. I have asked often that they should be under one Ministry—[An HON. MEMBER: "Not the Ministry of Food."]—because some solution has to be found of this difference between the two.
The production of beef is a long-term policy and I am not being critical when I say that the position in which we find ourselves today is due as much to neglect in the pre-war years as to any other cause, because the long-term policy in beef production starts not with the cow but with the land. We can only carry our calves and our beef stock through the winter according to the amount of winter fodder that we can grow on the land. From May until September our farms will carry twice and three times the amount of stock, but from September until May we are beaten.
On the hill farms and the marginal land we have to start with the cultivation of land which will give us that amount of winter fodder to enable us to carry our summer stock through the winter. When we can do that, we shall have begun the solution of one of our most difficult problems. That, of course, means re-seeding. It means better cultivation, it means more ploughing. Taking it on the whole, the production of beef is the longest-term policy in agriculture because it begins
1924
with the growing of the crop and then we, have three years or three and a half years to wait before we produce the animal. So this is a question more and more for the Ministry of Agriculture and, as the hon. Member for West Perth said, it needs looking into again, especially with regard to subsidies. The subsidies in Scotland are worked on a different basis from those in England, and we shall have to come more and more into line with Scotland on the beef cattle subsidy if we are to produce beef cattle in England as well.
With regard to the short-term policy, undoubtedly the pig is the solution, but we cannot look to the pig for any tremendous increase. Pigs breed quickly but they are dependent upon feeding-stuffs. Although I would point out to the Minister that they are not so dependent upon imported or other feedingstuffs as is generally supposed. The tremendous potato crop we have had this year has assisted so much the growing and feeding of pigs that the amount of feedingstuffs produced has been decreased materially. If we carry on with a tremendous acreage of potatoes, we can look forward to an even greater increase in pig meat than we have had this year.
The next animal that will produce meat quickly is the sheep. There is room for a great increase in our sheep stocks. Figures for the consumption of mutton show us to be the greatest mutton-eating country in the world. During the war and the terrible storms at the beginning of 1947, our sheep stocks decreased by something like seven million head. That is a loss which we really must recover. A lamb can be produced to reach the table in 12 months. Next to the pig it is the quickest animal to breed, but we cannot produce it in the same quantities.
There is a great lack of interest in the breeding of sheep on many of our hill farms, especially on marginal land, and I attribute this to two causes. First, it is due to the encroachment of the dairyman on the marginal land. That encroachment is having an adverse effect because of the way in which common law acts regarding the matter of fencing. By common law a man is compelled to keep his own stock on his own land; he must erect a fence to prevent his stock from trespassing on to another farmer's land. In the midst of a sheep area, however, a milk producer can hold his cattle on to his own

1925
land with two rails or strands of barbed wire, but the sheep farmer cannot do that; he must put up five strands of barbed wire, build a wall or have a fence. The result is that the dairy farmer or milk producer who comes into marginal land does not carry out his obligations to fence because he knows he is defended by common law.
I have one case especially in mind, that of an area of about 2,000 acres in which at the outbreak of the war there were 13 flocks of sheep, but where today there is not one single flock because of the encroachment of the milk producer on that land and because of the ploughing policy which was followed during the war. Where sheep trespassed on to the ploughed land and trouble arose between farmers, the sheep producer knew that he would have to fence both for the cattle man and for the ploughing man. That burden was too great for him; he wiped out his flock completely and went over to milk production. In one case a large-scale producer of sheep today has to fence for six of his seven surrounding neighbours, excluding his own fencing, because he carries sheep while they carry cattle; if he puts up a fence for sheep, of course, it turns cattle as well.
There is another case of a man who began milk production in a marginal area. He had a bad road leading to his farm. His first action was to take down a stone wall, five feet high and 180 yards long, and make his road. He replaced the wall by two strands of barbed wire. The former five-feet wall had turned the sheep belonging to the sheep farmer but the two strands of barbed wire did not. The result was that the sheep farmer then had to put up a fence in place of the wall which had been removed. All these things are having a devastating effect in marginal lands.
There are, of course, other factors. There is the question of public authorities, such as water boards. In this connection I shall mention names. In many places water boards are excluding sheep from grazing on gathering grounds. Many public authorities, however, have for years permitted the grazing of sheep on their land. During the war I was a member of Irwell Valley Water Board which for a time excluded sheep from the gathering grounds. I fought to obtain the grazing of sheep on those grounds. We met the
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Lancashire war agricultural executive committee and succeeded in that purpose. But a fortnight ago I learned to my dismay that in December of last year, on 10,000 acres of land held by this board, the order was again introduced prohibiting grazing. As a result, 4,000 sheep were sold in December and today those 10,000 acres do not carry a single sheep. It is absolutely criminal for public authorities of this kind to waste this land.
On the land of this water board in East Lancashire, one can see derelict farms with roofs taken away, windows taken out and doors taken off. I do not know their exact number, but there must be well over a hundred of one sort or another. It is a crime that such practices should operate. A committee appointed by the Ministries of Health and Agriculture last year published its report and stated quite frankly that sheep grazing on this type of land does no harm whatever. There are other lands in the country from which sheep are excluded in the same way. All this has a terrible effect upon our sheep stocks, and I hope that something will be done by the Minister to ensure that such practices do not continue.
I plead with the Minister for more feedingstuffs, especially protein feeding-stuffs. As hon. Members have pointed out, we cannot grow more pigs unless we have more feedingstuffs. By a little greater supply of them our pig stocks could be increased tremendously. There is also the question of carrying cattle through the winter where, again, more feedingstuffs are required. We can carry them through the summer when there is plenty of grass, but we require more feedingstuffs for pigs and poultry and to, finish fat cattle during the winter.
The Minister of Agriculture is trying to increase our cattle population by means of a calf subsidy, but we cannot rear calves unless we have calf food. In areas where calves are not suckled we need to have calf meal of some description in order to start them off for their first six months. We cannot get feeding-stuffs for calves beyond the age of six months. The best artificial feeding-stuff for the calf is a dried milk calf food. I think the Minister of Food, rather than releasing milk for three months from the domestic ration, ought at least to have put some of that milk into manufacture so

1927
that we could have had more calf milk feedingstuff. We could then have increased the number of calves on our farms tremendously.
I have not been able to obtain a calf food containing milk for more than 18 months. Many farmers are in the same position. If this food were brought back on to the market we could increase the calf population of the country. I plead with the Minister to look into the question. If it is a question of trouble with the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Chancellor ought to look into it, because if we can get protein feedingstuffs for our calves, pigs and poultry, we can contribute far more than we are contributing at present to solving the difficulties with which the Minister is faced and contribute far more to the housewife's table.
6.31 p.m.
Sir David Robertson: The hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) has demonstrated his intimate knowledge of the farming industry and the Committee have listened to his speech with interest and appreciation, just as they listened to the brilliant speech of my hon. Friend the Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden), who made a most constructive contribution which appealed to everyone. We are having a survey by experts and I feel a little diffident about getting up, because I am no farming body.
The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) seemed to be chiding some lion. Members for an attack on bulk buying which has not come at all. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said something about State trading and if the Debate has proved anything it has shown that State trading in the Argentine is a proven failure. The hon. Member for West Salford spoke of the firms which traded with the Argentine before the war and they appeared to do it successfully because they bought 90 per cent. of the meat. There was an abundant supply in the shops, irrespective of whether they were private traders, the Vestey Bros., or the Co-operative societies. There was a constant flow of meat from Argentina to the people of this country and. although our people may not have had all the food they wanted, it was there at reasonable prices.
Mr. Gallacher: Aye, but what happened to the farmers here?
Sir D. Robertson: I do not propose to enter into a discussion with the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) because it would be completely irrelevant on his side. The hon. Member for West Salford seemed to me to cast some heavy aspersions on the Vestey Bros. I remember the original Vestey Bros.; one is still living. They were the sons of an offal butcher in Liverpool, who was not unlike the hon. Member for West Salford himself. They worked very hard and, from small beginnings, they built up a great business. In doing that they were like generations and generations of our countrymen in every branch of industry and commerce.
I believe, and I think the meat industry believes, that the Vestey Bros. and their successors did great things. They taught the Argentines how to freeze meat and transport it. They built ships which brought it to our country. They invested much money and took great risks, not only in the Argentine but also in Australia and, I believe, in New Zealand. Those British importers deserve the praise and attention of the Minister of Food. I believe it would pay our country well if we abandoned this system of State trading and put these men back to work in the job they must know so much better than the British Ambassador to Argentina and his civil servant assistants. These are the men who can gauge the market there hour by hour and day by day.
Has not the Minister driven a too hard bargain with Argentina? I have traded long enough in a kindred trade to know that hard bargains are bad and fundamentally wrong. We have not got the meat so far, but I am certain that this great nation will send it to us. She is conscious of the part we played in her development and we need not be mealy mouthed about this. Statements have been made about holding up to ransom. I do not believe they are holding us up to ransom.
Mr. Gallacher: Did not the hon. Gentleman's leader, the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), speaking from the Front Opposition Bench today, declare that he was against being held up to ransom by Argentina?
Sir D. Robertson: I suggest that my right hon. Friend did nothing of the kind. He said he would not and this party would not tolerate our country being held up to ransom by any country.
Mr. Shurmer: What did he mean?
Sir D. Robertson: The hon. Member must ask the right hon. Gentleman what he meant. I am suggesting that there is no reason to be mealy-mouthed about the situation. I think all the fear exists on the Government Front Bench and we can afford to be open with these friendly people with whom we have traded so well for more than a century. It is apparent that meat which should have been shipped to Britain, went to Holland for more money than we agreed to pay, and to Belgium and the United States for exactly the same reason, and on to the Argentine home market for the same reason. No one has a right to excessive profit by a hard bargain. It must be a short-sighted policy because we have to go back to the Argentine each year for more meat.
The immediate short-term policy must be to get meat from the Argentine. I have not heard any one suggest how, between now and September, we can get meat from anywhere else. It seems to me that the obvious thing is to be absolutely fair. Apparently this system of State trading obliges the Government to make a contract price a year ahead. Anyone who knows anything about buying and selling perishables must know that is a fundamentally dangerous situation. If the world price rises, the farmer is a pretty sick man as he must be getting a price well below the world price. We have heard today that in Argentina feedingstuff prices have risen and the farmer is caught on two issues, the feedingstuff has gone up in price and he pays more for it. The market value of his product has gone up, but he only receives his share of a bad contract price because of this State trading system. In this situation more attractive offers are taken from other countries which is wrong and inexcusable but understandable.
I do not think we need be afraid to say these things. I have read in newspapers of blackmail and of opprobrium being heaped on Argentina, and maybe their newspapers are saying similar things about us, but I think that is wrong. We
1930
should tackle the problem as businessmen would tackle it and realise that bad bargains are wrong, and that there must be a share for every participant for a bargain to endure.
Mr. Blackburn: As the hon. Member has been so candid on this subject, would he fill in the gap which the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) left in referring to the Australian deal? The Australian offer has been made conditional upon there being a reasonable market for a reasonable period on the part of this country. How else can that reasonable market for a reasonable period be provided by the Government, unless they undertake long-term bulk purchase contracts?
Sir D. Robertson: The hon. Member has raised a most interesting point. The answer to it is surely that our Government can say to Australia, "We will take all your products at fair market values," which cannot be determined today in fairness to them or to us. Let us pay a fair price which a willing buyer and a willing seller would agree between themselves, and in case of doubt let the Presidents of Institute of Chartered Accountants in Melbourne or Sydney and London agree upon a fair price. That is the way in which commercial people who have been reared in industry and commerce would proceed.
I say to the Minister of Food and to his colleagues on the Government Front Bench that it is worth giving serious attention to that matter now. This artificial system, which was started during the war and because of the war, has long outlived its day. There is no problem involved in my suggestion which the Government could not overcome. They could issue import licences to the traders, exchange would presumably continue to be controlled and the Argentine Government would have to be told, as all other nations would be told, that they can no longer sell to us and buy elsewhere.
That is not a problem which is peculiar to Argentina and Britain. It applies to Australia, Canada and all the other nations. We know of the unfortunate position which has arisen in the case of Canada. She is unable to buy here and is buying in the United States, but she

1931
wants to sell here. The fact that Argentina wants steel and petrol need not present difficulties. That trade could be put into the hands of private enterprise exporters. The Government would presumably control the quantities exported. That is the only extent to which they would need to put their fingers into the pie. It seems to me what has emanated from the Debate so far has clearly proved that State trading should at least be seriously reconsidered by the Government.
I was intensely interested in the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. H. Fraser), who spoke of the possibilities of increasing supplies in this country. My hon. Friend the Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) followed that up in referring to the great Highland area which represents more than half the total area of Scotland. I was stopped two months ago at Dingwall by over 20 farmers, members of the Northern Pastoral Club, some of the finest producers of cattle and sheep in the country. They -asked me, in the absence of their Member, to put before the Government their willingness to re-stock all the deer forests and the marginal land—forests covering 2,800,000 acres—in the Highlands which carried huge herds of cattle and sheep a century ago, and which carry scarcely any today.
They are willing to take over and restock those forests provided that they are given security of tenure and that the Government are willing to bear half of the cost of insurance against winter storm which wrought so much devastation in 1947. The cost is only 5s. per cent., of which the farmer would pay 2s. 6d. and the Government 2s. 6d. This would bring about this great flow of energy for the re-stocking of these idle acres. I put up this suggestion to the Secretary of State for Scotland. It has been rejected because, the policy of the Minister of Food is that he cannot afford to allow lambs to be sent to the hills where they grow and fatten. He has to send them into the market. That is a short-term policy which needs a great deal of reconsideration. I hope that the Minister of Food will, in conjunction with the Secretary of State for Scotland, look at this scheme which has been put up by practical farmers who want to help our country.
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Another matter which I wish to discuss is fishmeal, which is a vitally important feedingstuff. Owing to the unfortunate action of the Minister of Food we are losing thousands of tons of feedingstuffs per annum through his policy. In his efforts to get a greater quantity of fish carried in the hulls of trawlers, the Minister has encouraged the trade to head their long fish, which represents about 90 per cent. of the total catch. These heads are the finest raw material for fishmeal. Instead of coming to the fish meal plants and then being sent out for cattle feeding, they are being pitched overboard, fouling the grounds and incidentally contributing to the poor quality of the carcase of the fish when landed. The fish would carry far better in ice in the trawler if they retained their heads than they do after being roughly decapitated, which allows bacteria to get at the fish. It is bad for the fish, bad for the people who have to eat that fish, because they are getting a poorer article instead of a better one, and it is bad for the agricultural industry.
We were told that the pre-war home production of meat was 1,250,000 tons. Now after the Government have been in office for nearly four years the figure is down to 750,000 tons, mainly because of lack of feedingstuffs. Here the Minister has a source of feedingstuffs to hand. He can, by one of the statutory orders which he likes so much, prohibit headless fish from coming into Britain and the practice will stop overnight. The fish meal industry runs to probably 100,000 tons. It might make a difference to us of huge numbers of cattle, pigs and poultry in the course of a year or two.
I shall conclude with a word or two about the consumer, the unfortunate housewife who has to go grubbing about trying to get enough food to feed her family. In considering what are the immediate substitutes for meat which are at hand, the first which occurs to me is herring which is of equal protein value and of higher fat content than meat. It is caught round our coasts in abundance from the latter part of April or the beginning of May until Christmas. Never in the history of the last century have we been able to sell all our fresh herring or anything like that quantity in this small island, where there is a network of railways. However much we could afford to waste food of that kind in other days

1933
when there was abundance, we cannot afford to waste it any longer. Yet our catching power is only half what it was prior to 1914, because of the Russian departure from the herring market.
In spite of that reduced catching power in craft, men and nets, we are actually exporting nearly 30 per cent. of the herring we catch, herring caught between Wick and Yarmouth. Yet the transport difficulties in this little island appear to be so difficult. That is utter nonsense. We salt the herring and send them to the Control Commission in Germany. The British taxpayer has to pay for them. That ludicrous situation must come to an end; it is not good enough. The Minister of Food has in this country all the facilities at hand for transporting herring in good condition for wholesale and retail sale.
If the fishmongers cannot undertake to sell all the catch why should not the under-employed and underpaid butchers be used? Do they not possess the skill to gut a herring or take a package of kippers and hand them over the counter? It would be found that the butchers would be interested. It would help them to pay their overheads and it would help in the disposal of supplies. The fish trade have not been able to dispose of all the supplies up to now. That is a responsibility which must be shouldered by the Government if the people are to get the food which they require. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give consideration to that point. I must apologise to the House for taking up so much time. I can only say that I should have liked to say a good deal more.
6.50 p.m.
Mr. S. N. Evans: I am very fond of herrings and I have no complaint on that score against the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson); but I do not like bacon that tastes of fish, so I hope we shall be careful about that.
We have heard some very picturesque arguments from agriculturists, arguments which, superficially at any rate, are very attractive; but, of course, the living standard of the British people has reached its present level as the result of a very delicate balance between agriculture, industry, commerce and finance. I am one of those who believe that somehow or other that balance will have to
1934
be kept if we are to retain our living standard at its present level. At some period there must be a limit imposed on the extent to which agriculture can be subsidised. We require short-term tactics to solve a problem which I suggest may be only a short-term problem, but we also have to keep in mind a long-term strategy which has regard to this delicate balance between agriculture, industry, commerce and finance. Otherwise, I fear we shall be unable to maintain our living standard at approximately its present level, let alone increase it.
The hon. Member for Streatham advanced what seemed to me to be an extraordinary argument. It reminded me very much of my younger days and Bethmann Hollweg and his scrap of paper. It is morally all right to tear up an agreement freely negotiated because the market goes against us—that seemed to be the argument which the hon. Member was advancing.
Sir D. Robertson: I pointed out to the Committee that a hard bargain is fundamentally bad, and I gave adequate reasons for saying that.
Mr. Evans: The hon. Member is a successful business man, and he knows that in business most bargains are hard bargains.
Sir D. Robertson Sir D. Robertson indicated dissent.
Mr. Evans: Oh, yes, and hard bargains generally leave the two persons negotiating them with a very lively respect for each other. Speaking from experience gained during nearly 30 years in business, I have never yet succeeded in finding a bargain which was not a hard bargain.
The hon. Member went on to say that we should speak without being mealy-mouthed about this Argentine business. No one would wish to prejudice or jeopardise the negotiations now going on with the Argentine, least of all myself, because I am privileged to be the chairman of the Anglo-South American All-Party Parliamentary Group, and the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. H. Fraser), who was in the Argentine with me, is the able and energetic secretary. I would not wish to say anything likely to jeopardise the negotiations at present going on. How, ever, the fundamental cause of this Debate is the fact that the Argentine has

1935
unilaterally repudiated an agreement freely negotiated, freely entered into, regarding 80,000 tons of meat for the British people. That is why we are talking about meat today, and therefore I will permit myself a few observations on that point.
I entirely agree that for over a century there has been amity and commercial friendship between Britain and the Argentine, and mutually profitable trading relations. We wish to see that happy condition of things restored at the earliest possible moment. But amity and friendship is a two-way street, not a one-way street. When people enter into bargains they should be prepared to stand by those bargains. The Argentine and Britain have much to offer each other. There can be no doubt that Britain's post-war reconstruction can be greatly aided by the capacity and willingness of the Argentine to send us increased quantities of beef, hides and maize. We, in turn, can help Argentine industrialisation by supplying them with steel, machine tools and capital equipment of various kinds.
It sticks out a mile that without amity and collaboration between us and the Argentine we shall both become increasingly dependent on United States dollars. Unfortunately, at the moment the balance of trade is hopelessly one-sided. We are taking from the Argentine something like £100 million worth of stuff a year and they are taking from us something like £40 million worth a year. It seems to me that if the Argentine were prepared to grant export licences to take British goods to an extent that would help to close this trading gap, it might be that our negotiators would be able to take a more liberal view in the matter of price.
The hon. Member for Streatham said that we should not be mealy-mouthed and I will accept his advice. It seems clear that Senor Miranda, the principal architect of Argentine post-war economic policy signed the Andes Agreement with a secret unilateral clause in his mind. That clause was, "If the market goes against us, Britain gets her meat at the agreed price, but if the market goes up then we shall demand more money or Britain will not have her meat." It seems to me to be as simple as that. We are a very great nation not accustomed to doing
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business on those lines. When we make agreements we honour them, and we must expect our friends to do the same. I personally would prefer that our negotiator caught the next plane out of Buenos Aires rather than negotiate another agreement which would be likely to meet with the same fate as the Andes Agreement. I think the British people would agree with that.
So far as Anglo-Argentine relations are concerned I think the situation may change, for two good reasons. I consider that Senor Miranda's economic policy towards Britain was founded on two fundamental fallacies. The first was that Britain would not recover from the wounds inflicted by a second war in 25 years, and that therefore her interests and feelings were not matters which need be given much consideration. There is an old Spanish proverb which says:
"When the tree falls many come to carry the wood away."
I fear that Senor Miranda made the same mistake as Philip of Spain, Napoleon and Hitler. The British oak has not fallen, nor is it about to fall. I think that fact probably has been conveyed home by the Argentine Ambassador in London for a long time past. It may now be sinking in and we may get a more fair and intelligent attitude toward Anglo-Argentinian commercial arrangements.
The Argentine really should remember that within a very short time, this country will he in an immensely stronger position than it is at the moment. By 1952 all the commodities she wants—petrol, steel, tinplate and chemicals—will be in abundant supply for export from this country and the sterling area. I would say to my Argentine friends, "Just as we had faith in you when you were struggling for liberty in the days of San Martin, so you today must have faith in us." It is clear that if we did stop buying, the Argentine frigorificos would be bursting their walls within three months with sides of beef that could not be sold anywhere else. We should then know who had won the cold storage war. But this is not the sort of atmosphere which should obtain between friends so old as the Argentine and ourselves.
Sir D. Robertson: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that in all he is saying

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now he is proving the case which I submitted that State trading is fundamentally wrong? All these difficulties have arisen because of it. If the importers were put to work, it would not occur. There would be no international complications with Senor Miranda or anyone else. We should buy the meat we wanted or we should not buy it, but we would do our best.
Mr. Evans: Now that the hon. Member has made his third speech, I will carry on with my interjections. What the hon. Gentleman has just said is highly speculative.
Sir William Darling: But very stimulating.
Mr. Evans: There can be no doubt in any intelligent person's mind that the bulk buying guaranteed market policy of the Government, so far as the countries of the Commonwealth are concerned, has been an outstanding success. It is to the credit of this Government that there has been a greater expansion of Empire trade in the last four years than ever before. Of course, between members of the same family, speaking the same language, taking pride in the same kind of institutions and having the same code of ethics, it is very much easier to conduct business than it is with areas or countries where the conditions are not precisely the same. Bulk buying guaranteed markets as within the family, within the nations of the Colonial and Dominion Commonwealth, is here to stay, I think that never again will there be laissez-faire in that field.
I suppose what I will say now will shock some of my hon. Friends, but they must forgive me. I sometimes wonder whether these bulk buying arrangements are quite so effective as they might be in present circumstances in parts of the world like South America. I do not know. I ask the Minister and the Government to examine this matter most carefully. After all, when negotiations conducted through normal trade channels break down, politicians do not feel the necessity to hurl their charges of blackmail across 6,000 miles of water. International relationships are not jeopardised. But there are other considerations. We British, brought up in a strong Nonconformist atmosphere, are inclined to be insular. We are apt to judge conditions
1938
abroad by conditions as they are here. In fact, there are fundamental differences. The course of trade, commerce and industry in some parts of the world is facilitated by practices at which we in this country would look askance. Let us freely admit that. Not all the world has taken to cricket. If therefore one is in a country where the national sport is rackets, one really must not be surprised if one is expected to learn to play squash.
Sir W. Darling: What kind of a racket?
Mr. Evans: I am trying to say as delicately as I can—I fear that nature has not gifted me with delicacy—that there are practices with which a British Labour Government could not possibly associate itself.
Sir W. Darling: Do not believe it.
Mr. Evans: Oh, yes. One hears of a very vivacious lady's most prized possession being a rope of black pearls presented to her by Mr. Stalin on the occasion of a successful business transaction. One hears of the wife of one economic czar whose 1947 Christmas presents in jewellery alone were valued at £100,000.
Mr. Eccles: Surely, what the Labour Government did was to give £10 million on the side. Was not that rather more than anyone else has given?
Mr. Evans: The trouble may have been that it was not on the side. However, we must face up to the fact that in some parts of the world there are amenities which lubricate the flow of trade as between individuals, organisations and nations. I think we must have some regard to this, and I must, at any rate, because of my constituents. I know them very well, for I have been brought up with them and have worked and played with them for 50 years, and they still smell all right to me, though they have one terrible drawback, which is that they eat like horses. In this matter, I therefore have to think once, twice and thrice and I say that, in a land where Santa Claus works a 48-hour week for 52 weeks in the year, it is very disappointing for children to find out that there is no Father Christmas.
Sometimes I am tempted to think that it may be that our technique is not quite

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adequate to the requirements of a very grievous situation, and that it may be that that is the reason we are not meeting with such success. I am trying to skate over very thin ice, and I have been frightened of going in all the time, but, to finalise what I have to say, I hope the Committee will permit me to remind my Argentine friends—and I have many, and they treated me most hospitably, as the hon. Member for Stone will confirm—of an occasion when a very distinguished Argentine statesman and President, Senor Bartolome Mitre, spoke. On 7th March, 1861, the then President said:
"In answering the cordial salutations which have greeted me, and especially those of the citizens of Great Britain, I will say that I do not acknowledge them as foreigners in this land."
Later, in proposing the toast, he said:
"I might wish that this glass were of gold, not in order to worship it as the calf of old was worshipped, but in order to present more worthily the symbol of the friendly relations between Great Britain and Rio de la Plata, the Britain which was our best friend during the War of Independence."
I would commend those words to my Argentine friends, and not least to General Peron, with whom I spoke for half an hour.
7.13 p.m.
Mr. Baldwin: I do not wish to follow the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) except to say that if he had been able to allow my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson) to make a fourth speech, he would have agreed that bulk buying was all wrong. It was an interesting speech to me, because it was a speech from the point of view of a business man, as opposed to those of some of us who have spoken purely from the agricultural point of view.
It seemed to me that the hon. Gentleman was speaking as a business man of the 19th century would have spoken. I think that what this country is suffering from today is the fact that it does not realise that the 19th century has passed. It is still expecting that the rest of the world will provide plenty of food at something less than the cost price of food in this country, and it is time we began to realise that, instead of being the greatest creditor nation in the world, we are now the greatest debtor nation. For
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that reason, in what I have to say I want to deal with what, in my opinion, is the solution of this meat problem.
It has been very ably put already by my hon. Friends the Members for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) and Stone (Mr. H. Fraser), and I am afraid that to a large extent I can only reiterate what they have said. What we are forgetting today is that the population of the world is increasing annually by 20 million people, and that the cultivated area of the world is standing still, if not decreasing on account of soil erosion. The effect of that 20 million increase is not necessarily to call upon the production of meat, but it is a call on the cereal production of the world, which has a very serious effect on meat production, particularly in this country, since for the last 70 or 90 years we have been relying on the purchasing of coarse grains from all over the world in order to produce our meat.
We have to realise that because of the climate of this country we are necessarily a meat-eating nation, and if we are to expect our workers to do the heavy work which they are called upon to do, it is essential for them to have something more than this miserable allowance of one ounce of meat per day, which is approximately the ration. I often wonder how my farm workers get their work done when they have to rely on this miserable allowance and have no provision of restaurants or canteens, and cannot avail themselves of a fried fish shop or a fresh fish shop either. I am speaking of what obtains in many parts of Great Britain where the workers live in isolated spots and cannot get all those amenities which the Minister of Food so often tells us we ought to provide for the men.
The problem is both a short-term and a long-term one. The solution to the short-term meat supply problem must surely be that the Minister of Food must go out into the world to purchase coarse grains wherever he can get them. He may say that that is not possible, but I suggest to him that, instead of exporting coal and steel to the Continent of Europe to bring back vegetables which we ourselves can grow in this country, it is better that we should send coal and steel to those countries like Argentina and Canada which need coal and steel and are prepared to exchange those goods for

1941
coarse grains. That is the only way in which we can remedy the present shortage. I would remind the Parliamentary Secretary that, although she has said that it takes a period of 11 months gestation for a cow, a pig does not take all that length of time and a chicken can be produced in 21 days, so that if we could get the feedingstuffs we could get an almost immediate increase in the supply of food.
The particular matter about which I want to speak is the long-term policy. We shall have to tackle these 16 million acres of land which are at present scheduled in our agricultural returns as rough grazing—16 million acres against a total cultivated area in Great Britain of 31 or 32 million acres. It is no good putting up the argument that that land cannot be brought into production. It was in production a long time ago, and if the Government will check up in the Library they will find that between 1831 and 1840 the average annual production of wheat in the United Kingdom was 3,500,000 tons. I must admit that includes Eire, but Eire was never a great producer of wheat. The total grain production was 10,500,000 tons.
Despite assertions to the contrary, it is apparent to me that much of the land which today is marginal and derelict or semi-derelict could be brought into production. An illustration has been given in the "Farmer and Stockbreeder" of what has been done on a 400-acre derelict farm in Scotland during the last 17 to 18 years. I think the figures are something like this. When the farmer at present farming took over, the land was keeping one horse and one cow. Today it is running 5,000 breeding ewes, a herd of dairy cattle, a certain amount of arable land and some soft fruit. The annual turnover is £31,000 and the wages bill £5,468—and that was derelict land. An interesting lecture was given only a few weeks ago by Professor Ellison showing what could be done with land which at present is not doing anything to contribute towards the food supply of this country.
I am more conversant with the Welsh hills and the borderlands adjacent to them and I am quite certain that those hill farms and the marginal lands which go with them could be brought into full production. Even in my own county there
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are something like 20,000 acres which I am told by one who knows all about it—I must not mention names—could be brought into production and which at the present time are doing practically nothing. That is no reflection on the county executive committee because they are already tackling 150 acres which was nothing but fen but which can be brought into full production. There is no reason why this land should not produce a full crop.
I have experience in my own area of common land which was derelict at the outbreak of the war and which produces crops of wheat of 30 cwt. per acre. That land must be kept in production. That common land now in production must not be allowed to fall back into a derelict state. I suggest that the Government should treat this problem in a serious way and should immediately set a target of at least four million of the 16 million acres to be tackled and brought into production. They should tell their county executive committees that instead of doing small-scale farming on isolated farms, which could be farmed better and at a smaller loss to the nation by plenty of capable young farmers, they should schedule land which is not doing its job and steps should be taken to deal with it.
There is another important thing which must be done before that land can be brought into production. We must have rural houses and an improvement of the roads in that desolate country. We do not want any more new towns in Great Britain. We are all unbalanced at the present time. We have only one person in 16 employed in agriculture, while in most other countries the ratio is one to five or one to six. We are entirely unbalanced, so do not let us have any more new towns. Do not let us send our builders to build these rabbit warrens; let us build some cottages in the countryside and get some of our healthy, virile people to live in the countryside once again. Instead of building new arterial roads taking a lot more agricultural land, let roads be built through the desolate places so that people living there can have, easy access to the towns. I emphasise that the solution to our problem is to tackle this land which at the present time is doing nothing. If we do not, then some day this country will go very much more hungry than it is today.
7.25 p.m.
Mr. Collins: I feel that the speech of the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin), with which I am very largely in agreement, constitutes in the main an indictment of previous Governments over a long period for really savage neglect of our countryside. He spoke of the need for cottages, and in this respect we are already making far more progress than was made in rural areas for many years before the war, and of the great need for reclaiming marginal land which used to carry large numbers of cattle. All that is perfectly true and it all provides one of the basic reasons for the present difficulty in which we find ourselves.
Mr. Baldwin: Surely the hon. Member will agree that it was not because of any Government but because this country opted for an industrial era which created great wealth. No Government could have done anything to land because of the importance to industrialists of sending things abroad so as to bring back cheap food.
Mr. Collins: A Government is responsible for its policy and if previous Governments had been sufficiently wise as to know what this country needed, millions of acres which are now almost completely derelict would be producing food and we should not be in the mess in which we find ourselves today.
It appears that these arguments would be more appropriately answered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, but in debating the country's meat supply I feel it is impossible not to introduce discussions on points concerning increased production in our own country. A great deal has been said about the vital need to increase imported feedingstuffs. In the main I thoroughly disagree with that argument which I think is completely against the long-term interests of British agriculture. My reasons for saying that are that anyone who takes a serious look at the prospects for world grain production and consumption over a period of years must realise that, quite apart from the question of the availability of dollars, no one can say that in a few years time we shall be in a position to import feedingstuffs on a really substantial scale.
It has always been pointed out that not only is farming a long-term job but that meat production is a matter of planning
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over a period of several years. One thing which is absolutely essential for any farmer is that he must know, if he starts a breeding policy, that he can rely on feedingstuffs of various kinds in sufficient quantity to enable him to maintain that policy. It would be quite disastrous if our farmers were allowed to think that at the present time they could have a volume of feedingstuffs which ultimately could not be maintained. Everything possible should be done, therefore, to increase the reliance of our farmers on the production of their own feedingstuffs.
I would remind the House of the position with regard to milk production. Towards the end of 1946 we were in a very serious position with regard to the import of dairy feedingstuffs. I believe it was the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) who thought we might not be able to maintain the very meagre milk ration during that winter. We were then getting about one-twelfth of pre-war dairy feedingstuffs imports. Farmers got to work to produce their own feedingstuffs and the milk ration was not merely maintained, but production that winter was increased. It has now reached record levels and milk is off the ration, largely because farmers produced their own feedingstuffs in sufficient quantities to carry the number of dairy cattle necessary for that purpose.
If we compare the pre-war meat supply situation with the present, we must realise that although there is a substantial drop, the level of beef and mutton consumption is not substantially less than it was before the war; I refer to the total overall consumption. Where the great drop has been experienced is in pig meat, which is about 600,000 tons down. Fortunately, this is the one main class of meat which can be increased rapidly. The only possible direction in which there is justification for spending dollars on imported feedingstuffs, is to facilitate an immediate, although temporary, increase in the allocation of imported feeding-stuffs for pigs and poultry to enable pig and poultry populations to be built up still further, and to be built up quickly. In the last 18 months there has been an increase of 800,000 pigs and 15 million poultry, which are now at about the prewar level. That is some indication that these stocks can be built up very quickly.
However, let me say at once that I do not think that during the past 12 months

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farmers have done nearly as much as they could have done in that respect. They have had the opportunity of keeping one-fifth of the barley they grew in the last harvest. Instead of using it for pig meal, they have hung on to it in the hope of selling it at the malting price. The advantages which formerly came with the use of subsidised barley meal have now been ironed out, and we can expect farmers to use more of their own barley, particularly as this year they will be able to use all they grow if they wish, but I think it would be a mistake and certainly not in the interests of agriculture if we were to hold out any hope that over an extensive period we could substantially increase imports of dollar feedingstuffs.
Reference has been made to the fact that France and Italy have used 90 million Marshall dollars for imported feeding-stuffs. Incidentally, they have also got a large number of unemployed in both countries, and I do not think those two factors are unrelated. We imported unemployment in this way before the war, and I hope that a Labour Government will never adopt such a policy in future. When I first had the honour to address the House I forecast that the situation which has arisen now would arise, and I urged that we should strive as hard as we could to get nearer to the point of self-sufficiency.
I mentioned then the need to make the utmost of our grasslands and of the feed which they would produce. This was in October, 1945. I particularly stressed that we should provide grass dryers on a very large scale. Last year we produced 100,000 tons of dried grass. The grass dryer programme is beginning to get under way, and the Government are providing one-third of the cost of installation of approved schemes. Next year if the programme develops on the expected lines, we shall have half a million tons of dried grass, which is equivalent to 1,500,000 tons of coarse grain. When we get to that point we are dealing in figures that matter. If, without dollars, we now had an additional 1,500,000 tons of coarse grain it would solve to a large extent the problem with which we are confronted.
We should not allow our present difficulties over the Argentinians defaulting on their meat contract and the great distress which it causes to the housewife to
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deter us from building up our own agriculture and using the facilities and advantages which we have at our own hands. This boils down to two points of policy—short-term and long-term. As to the short-term point, we ought to use every facility available, including if necessary the expenditure of dollars on feedingstuffs, to bring up quickly the pig and poultry population, but I do not think we should use such dollars for the import of feedingstuffs for cattle. As to the cattle problem, which is a much longer-term problem, I agree with the hon. Member for Leominster that the greatest single factor in increasing our meat production' is the development of our marginal and hill lands, and in that respect I do not think that His Majesty's Government are yet doing nearly enough. I understand that some proposals will shortly be put forward for the development of marginal farms, but that they are of a nature which, in my view, is quite inadequate to deal with the problem which is one of considerable national importance.
Mention was made of the experiments which have been carried out by Professor Ellison, who has indicated that in his view one million marginal acres could fairly easily be brought into proper cultivation for the rearing of cattle, and if calves were suckled they could be brought on much more quickly with a resultant increase in meat production of from 12 to 15 per cent. Matters of that kind need careful examination because those methods could be employed in many parts of the country. For example, they could be employed on Exmoor where at present most of the farms are quite uneconomic, where the people are struggling along in conditions of great difficulty and where—and this is far more important—they are not producing anything like the quantity of meat that they could produce if they were given proper assistance.
My view of the present situation is this. It arose, first of all, because for many long years our land has been neglected and has not produced anything like the quantity of food that it could and should have done. We relied far too long and quite unnecessarily on imports of foreign meat and other produce, and we are now paying the price. In view of the conditions which are likely to operate in the world in the future, we can no longer rely on imported feedingstuffs to anything like

1947
the extent we have in the past. Therefore, we should make the utmost of our own resources, not merely as a stop-gap, not merely because we are a little inconvenienced at present, but because it is the soundest possible basis for future British prosperity, for our future standard of living, for efficient farming and the fertility of British soil.
7.40 p.m.
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Few of us on this side would disagree with the closing sentences of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins), but where we might disagree would be in what he said about the importation of feeding-stuffs as a policy, and on minor details of which I shall mention only one. He blamed the British farmer unfairly for not using his own barley for feeding pigs. I would remind him, however, that the price of pigs was based last year on the ability of the farmer to buy feeding-stuffs at £16 10s. per ton, whereas the farmer, even if he could not sell his barley for malting purposes could obtain £22 to £23 per ton for it. It will be seen, therefore, that it would have been hopelessly uneconomic for him to have fed his barley to pigs. I wish I had more time to deal with the hon. Member's speech, but as time is short I will pass on to other things.
I suppose that the most outstanding feature of the depressing and colourless speech of the right hon. Lady who initiated the Debate from the Government Front Bench was its total and absolute lack of a clear-cut policy. I suggest that from what I have to say the lines of a policy will emerge. To what extent is our low meat ration, our deplorably low meat ration, due to our methods of procurement? Before the war the great importing companies had their own buying organisations working in the countries from which the meat was procured. They negotiated direct with the producers in the supplying countries, and in many cases they had their own meat works in those countries. It was a most intricate business, because the price of meat had to conform at all times and at once to the prices of hides, tallow and wool. Above all, the price had to produce the meat, and no price is a good price unless it has that result.
1948
It can hardly be disputed that Government trading has failed to produce the meat we require. The census of herds showed that in 1947 the total head of cattle in the world was 724 million and that we imported only 495,000 tons of beef. Last year, although the head of cattle was practically the same, we imported only 373,000 tons of beef, so with a supply that was constant the Government succeeded in buying for us 23 per cent. less beef than in the previous year. I go back to our pre-war methods of procurement and remind the Committee that the price had to encourage producers to supply the kind of meat we wanted. I wonder if the consumer demand for small joints after the first world war and the adjustment of the Argentine production in favour of small Shorthorn and Aberdeen Angus breeds could have come about under State trading. Unless there is a rapid translation of consumer choice through trade channels to the producer, there will inevitably be a deterioration in quality, because sooner or later it becomes clear that it is just as easy and just as well to produce inferior beasts as to produce beasts of prime quality.
Apart from the harm that it does in embittering relations between one country and another, the trouble about State trading is that prices react too slowly to demand and to changed circumstances, and give no stimulus to quality production. It would be hard to find a better example of the failure of State trading than the case of Argentine meat. As its direct result, the Argentine instituted a system of State trading. The right hon. Lady saw fit to read a letter which my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) contributed recently to the "Daily Mail," in which he said that the institution of State trading by the Argentine was not due to our adoption of the system. That is exactly contrary to what Dr. Miranda says. I would remind the Committee that on 3rd May, 1948, in a speech at the American Club in Buenos Aires, he said:
"Argentina intervened in the commercialisation of its production and put the Argentine Institute for the Promotion of Interchange in operation in September, 1946, in order to protect its economy from the organisations set up by the countries purchasing its production."
Mr. Aypass: Which view would the hon. Member prefer to believe?
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: On this and other evidence we are forced to believe that my hon. Friend has had an unfortunate and temporary lapse of memory. The Minister has claimed for State trading that it can increase the production of food by giving the primary producers a reasonable measure of security. That is what the Minister of Food claimed on 20th January. In the case of the Andes Agreement, the Argentine Government has retained, or at least has held up, its profit instead of passing it on to the producer.
The British consumer has in this particular case been unable to reap any of the usual advantages of long-term contracts placed on a rising market, since the Argentine Government defaulted on its meat contracts when it found itself able to secure better prices from Belgium and Holland, while at the same time it continued to supply us with maize that was contracted for at the beginning of 1948 at around £27 a ton f.o.b., although the world price had fallen by the beginning of this year to about £20 per ton; indeed, it is reliably reported that the Netherlands recently bought 52,000 tons of maize from the Argentine at £17 per ton. In the bad old days of the futures market, buyers and sellers were able to insure against price fluctuations of this kind. Government stocks are now unhedged, and when prices swing against them it is the unfortunate taxpayer who has to pay.
But although State trading, as in the case of the Argentine, has had these unfortunate consequences, my hon. Friends and I do not quarrel with the need for long-term contracts in the case of countries in the British Commonwealth and Empire as a means of encouraging for our mutual benefit the production of increased quantities of food. We are, I believe, at present receiving about 62 per cent. of our imported meat supplies from Empire sources. We accepted, in the Agriculture Act, 1947, the principle of long-term guarantees for our home production of food. Because we believe that we in the Empire are one people we accept the same policy for the Empire.
Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that within the Commonwealth he believes in bulk purchase?
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I have been careful not to use the phrase "bulk
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purchase" for the good reason that a good deal of bulk purchasing was done by private enterprise before the war. I prefer the phrase "State trading" in this particular instance, because I prefer accuracy. What I say in this case is that there should be long-term guarantees within the Commonwealth and Empire if it is necessary and desirable to stimulate production in the Empire. There is a great deal of difference between giving such long-term guarantees to countries within the Empire and long-term guarantees to countries which are not within the Empire.
Let me pass—because I am watching the clock, and I know that other hon. Members wish to speak—from the general to the specific. Lord Bruce, in another place, said, on 30th March, in a speech which all of us must have admired, that Australian beef exports to this country could be increased from 250,000 tons to about 700,000 tons in a relatively few years. It appears that the Australian Government are prepared to go ahead with the costly development which would be required in her northern territory and in Queensland provided that we in Britain guarantee a market for her products over a reasonable period, which Mr. Chifley, the Australian Prime Minister, has said should not be less than 10 years. The "Australian Newsletter," which is issued from Australia House, said, on 24th March, in an article by Mr. Collin, the Minister of Agriculture for Queensland, that the United Kingdom Government had not indicated, at that date, that they were prepared to give these guarantees.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) pressed the Minister to give these guarantees to the Committee tonight, and I hope he will do so. The guarantees which were given last week in another place were introduced into the Debate by a side wind, as it were; that is not the way in which important pronouncements of policy ought to be made. Although the Parliamentary Secretary followed my right hon. Friend in the Debate today, and had a first-class opportunity of supporting that pronouncement, she seemed to shrug off the Australian position in a sentence or two; that was not good enough, and I hope the Committee will not he treated in this way at the end of the Debate this evening.

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Let me summarise what I want to say in five conclusions. First, State trading has failed in its primary object, which is to secure the maximum possible supply of meat; second, we should, at the earliest possible moment, return to pre-war methods of procurement, if necessary within the framework of guaranteed minimum prices to the producer—
Mr. Collins: If the hon. Gentleman says that State trading has failed to get beef, why was he advocating, in another part of his speech, that we should pursue it?
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I am grateful to the hon. Member because the State trading to which I referred specifically in the early part of my speech was State trading with the Argentine. If I omitted to say so, I say so now. State trading with the Argentine has failed in its primary object, which is to secure the maximum supply of meat for our people.
Mr. Medland: The Argentines did not keep their bargain.
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: That is one of the arguments against State trading. They did not keep their bargain, and we have no sanction, short of going to war—which no one proposes that we should do—to force them to their bargain. If the bargain had been between private traders it would have been possible to enforce it. [HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] With the Foreign Office behind it, as has often been done in the past.
Mr. Shurmer: Would the hon. Gentleman send a battleship?
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Third, we should henceforth regard the Empire as the primary source of imported meat. We should enter at once into long-term arrangements, particularly with Australia, which would help them to increase their production of beef and mutton.
Mr. Shurmer: We are doing that.
Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Fourth, we should enter into no agreement with the Argentine which will conflict with that policy. Finally, as a short-term measure, we should do everything possible along the lines suggested tonight by so many of my hon. Friends and Members opposite, not the least my hon. Friend the Member for West Perth, to stimulate home production.
7.57 p.m.
Mrs. Leah Manning: This is the second time in a food and agriculture Debate that I have had the pleasure of following the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley), but I cannot agree with him as much tonight as I did on the last occasion, especially on the question of State trading—I shall not use the term "bulk purchase" as it seems to stick in the hon. Member's throat. I have come to the conclusion that the view taken by the hon. Member and other hon. Members opposite is that within the framework of the Commonwealth and Empire we have the same ethical basis, and therefore can carry out State trading with those with whom we have the same "e.b.," as we used to call it. Outside the Empire, no one apparently has the same ethical basis as ourselves; therefore we cannot indulge in bulk purchase or State trading with those outside the charmed circle.
I hope the Minister will tell us something about State trading with the Argentine. I may be quite wrong, but I am under the impression that the Argentine which is, of course, a totalitarian State, under a dictatorship like other totalitarian States, can only be traded with through the medium of State trading. I am under the impression that A.I.P.I., the Argentine Institute for the Promotion of Interchange is the only body with which the Ministry of Food can deal for meat. If I am wrong, then my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister of Food will tell us tonight when the Debate is wound up. I have a very distinct recollection that some weeks ago the Minister of Food did actually make that statement from the Front Bench.
Mr. Turton: Is it not a fact that the Swiss buy their meat from the Argentine by private enterprise because they have found that they cannot do it by State trading?
Mr. Medland: Only a margin.
Mrs. Manning: But that is only marginal trading. They buy enough to make up their home-produced meat, whereas we buy at present well over 20 per cent. of our supplies. I think that the Economic Survey states that we buy about 23 per cent. of our meat supplies from the Argentine. Later, I should very

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much like to refer to something else which was said by the hon. Member for West Aberdeen and with which I entirely agreed, except that we are about half a century too late.
Now may I refer to the speech made by the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson). That speech really astonished me. I should like to tell the hon. Gentleman that the housewives of this country by no means agree with what he said. As far as the present contract with Argentina is concerned, the general view of the housewives of this country is: "Not a penny on the contract." Perhaps hon. Members will have seen the inquiry which has been made by the "Daily Mail" and in which I think something like 90 per cent. of the response has been: "Not a penny on the contract." My own constituents, with whom I have discussed this matter in meetings recently, have taken the same view. Shopkeepers will tell us that their customers say exactly the same thing: "Not a penny on this present contract." It is very fortunate that this position has arisen just at the moment when the housewife is in a better position to bear the shortage in the meat ration than at any other time of the year. There is the flush of milk and eggs; foreign cheeses are coming off points. These are good salad days, with new young vegetables. To any housewife who knows her job it is possible to make good and nourishing meals during the whole of the week with the help of the ration that she gets at the week-end. It is no good hon. Members opposite shrugging their shoulders. They do not happen to be housewives.
I speak from my own experience. Last week-end I happened to be alone in my constituency. My ration was 10-pennyworth of scrag end of neck of mutton. It was English, and much better than anything coming from the Argentine. By careful cooking—roast, stewed and cold—it lasted for three meals. I do not say that things are so easy in the winter, but today there are salads, plenty of milk and eggs, foreign cheeses off points, and fish to give variety, and housewives would sooner "make do" than pay extra on the present contract. I hope that Argentina will remember that and that my right hon. Friend's negotiators will also remember it.
I want to make myself perfectly clear. It may be that my right hon. Friend will not entirely agree with what I am going
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to say now. When we come to the end of the present contract, we shall have to remember that we are in a different world situation from that which we enjoyed in pre-war days. People have not made sufficient of the fact in this Debate that there is an entirely different situation, not only in Argentina but in many other parts of the world. It may be that in a new contract the Argentine would be justified in asking for, and that we should be justified in giving, a better price than we agreed to in the present contract. It would be greatly to our benefit at the present time, since Argentina has not the dollars with which to buy industrial machinery from the United States as she used to do, if we were to enter into some kind of barter arrangement in respect of the new contract. It would be good trading if we were to send more industrial machinery and more steel to the Argentine than we have done in return for meat.
Let us not forget either that we must get away from the old 19th century idea which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin), the idea that the only thing that we are able to do is import a lot of cheap food to the great disadvantage of our own balanced economy. I am afraid that I could not agree with the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans), who took the line that the delicate balance between industry, agriculture and commerce must never be upset. The delicate balance has already been upset. It has been upset by the world situation; not the world situation arising out of the war, but the world situation arising out of many other factors which are permanent and not transitory, such factors as the great rise in world population, 20 to 25 million extra human beings to feed every year; the smaller reservoir, due to soil erosion and other difficulties, from which food can be drawn; and finally a point which has not been mentioned yet, the fact that the people of the world everywhere demand a higher standard of life. We can no longer expect in this country to live upon a standard of life higher than that of the rest of the world.
Someone raised a point about a change in the way in which land is used for herds in the Argentine, and said that the estancias were being broken up today and that smaller men were producing

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cattle. That is not the only change which is taking place in the Argentine. It is not only a question of the estancias being broken up but of a great deal of industrialisation. As a result, the ordinary people, the under-privileged people of the Argentine, are demanding to eat some of the meat which formerly they sold to us and to other parts of the world. All those new factors have to be faced. The delicate balance about which the hon. Member for Wednesbury spoke is already destroyed. Therefore we have to look at the matter from an entirely new point of view.
The two best and most constructive speeches made today were, in my view, those of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. H. Fraser) and the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden). The speech of the hon. Member for Stone, and his letter in "The Times" the day before yesterday we all appreciated. There is no doubt that we have to engage in far greater production of meat in this country than we have done in the past. We can no longer be dependent for 23 per cent. of our supplies upon a foreign country like Argentina. Certainly, let us do whatever we can in the Commonwealth, with whom we can argue from the same ethical basis; with whom we can bargain fairly and upon whose guarantees we can depend.
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies is working to reach such understanding with the Colonies. The Minister of Food who is so often sneered at because of his enterprise in groundnuts, which is only one other method of producing food for this country, is also to be remembered for the work which he has already done in guaranteeing to Queensland in the hog belt a grant of £1,000,000. That may seem very small, but hon. Members opposite should recognise that it is one of the many things which could have been done in the years before the war, for food production within the Commonwealth.
If hon. Gentlemen opposite had encouraged the Commonwealth and Empire in the past to produce food for us we should not find ourselves in the difficult position we are in today of having to bargain with a nation that has an ethical basis different from ours. I deeply appre-
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ciated the speeches of the hon. Member for Stone and of the hon. Member for West Perth, and I think everybody on this side of the Committee did, too. We felt them to be helpful in a Debate which could easily have been much more difficult than in fact it has turned out to be.
I think we have to ask the Minister tonight to tell us what pressure is being put upon the Lord President of the Council to carry out the promise which was referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington. I remember him making that statement very distinctly. I thought it was a fair statement. If we must spend dollars on feedingstuffs at this time to enable us to produce our own beef, mutton and pork, then we ought to spend dollars, and not feel that, in doing so, we are doing wrong.
I do not think we ought to go on spending dollars interminably, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) that we do not want to import unemployment into this country; but there is this interim period in which we ought to spend dollars on feedingstuffs if only to carry us over until we get more home-produced nitrogenous feed from grass-drying. We must spend more dollars if we are to get the useful pig into the larder. I have heard it said by someone that if we are to eat pork everlastingly we shall get very tired of it. However, it is a long time since many of us had a nice bit of crackling on our plates. Besides, there is no need only to eat pork roasted or boiled. There is ham; there is gammon; there is bacon; chaps, trotters, pig's head, brawn. The Lord President ought to spend these dollars to bring more feedingstuffs and help us to bridge the gap.
I do not think it is the fault of the Ministry of Food. I do not think it is the fault of the Ministry of Agriculture. There is only one place where we can lay the blame for this. It is the place whence comes all austerity. I think we must find some way of encouraging this modest expenditure. Perhaps, the housewives in this Chamber can help here—the housewives, of whom I appear to be the only representative at the moment.
Lieut.-Colonel Corbett: What about the Parliamentary Secretary?
Mrs. Manning: I do not know if my right hon. Friend will agree with me about this. I have a great admiration for her work, and for the way in which she has distributed the foods she has had at her command. It is not only a question of buying foodstuffs but also of distributing them, and I admire the way she has done that. However as I say I do not know that she would agree with the proposal I now make, and that was why I was not associating her with it. I think we have to find a way of encouraging the expenditure of these dollars and I suggest that perhaps, the housewives who are Members of this Committee could go to the Prime Minister to ask if these dollars cannot be obtained, if only to tide us over immediate difficulties and to obtain feedingstuffs for pigs and poultry. Next year we may find that we are almost self-sufficient in pig and poultry supplies; assisted with Empire and Commonwealth produce we shall not be facing such an unfortunate dilemma. That is not to say that we should entirely give up trading with Argentina. That would be foolish indeed. We do not, however, want to be dependent on Argentina to the extent that we are at present. Therefore, I hope that we shall get some encouragement from the Minister when he replies tonight, and if we do, this Debate will have been of immense value.
8.15 p.m.
Mr. Hurd: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Lady the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) because, although we sit on opposite sides of the Committee, I often find myself agreeing with her. She speaks with good, broad common sense. I liked her appeal to Ministers and Members of her party to persuade the Prime Minister to get the Lord President to make sense of the pledge he gave in 1947. I endorse also the reply she made to the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) and his remarks about our position in the world, and the possibility that quite soon this rather awkward cloud will pass away, and that we shall be able to trade on very much the same terms as we did before the war. Frankly, I do not see that happening, and nor, I think, do most sensible people in this country. I rather think that when we look back. perhaps five years hence, we may bless President Peron for having opened our eyes—
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admittedly, at a very awkward time—and the eyes of our rulers to the shortcomings of our livestock policy in this country and in the Empire.
The Parliamentary Secretary gave us a most despairing view of our meat prospects. She repeated twice—so it must have been her theme song—that we are to get some meat from Mexico and from France. Good heavens, have we really sunk as low as that? Shall we do any better with those deals than with the deal with Uruguay which was paraded a few months ago as our salvation—that wonderful new contract with Uruguay, as it was made out to be. Now we hear that the promised meat is going to Belgium or Holland or somewhere else.
We must develop our production sources in the Empire. I hope the Minister will tell us about the development of the scheme in Queensland. There are good possibilities for development in Australia, in Kenya and in many other parts of the Empire to which we ought to give every encouragement. If water pipes or fencing wire, for instance, are required, we should do our best to supply those needs. We should encourage those food production schemes as a complement to our own production here. Several of my hon. Friends have emphasised the possibilities of developing production in the marginal lands, and the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins), on the opposite side of the Committee, spoke about reclaiming Exmoor. I thought that that was a little optimistic, but more meat could be produced on the borders of Wales as well as on the borders of Scotland.
I am glad to see the Minister of Agriculture here. I wish he would have heart-to-heart talks with the county agricultural executive committees, and tell them what he wants them to do. During the war we always had a very good response from them when we told them what was wanted, whether it was meat or milk, or whatever it was. The committees are looking around for a job to do, and I think they would respond gladly to a clear lead from the Minister of Agriculture. He should go to see them and discuss their problems on the spot. We could increase beef production from the hills and the marginal lands that might give us 250,000 more store cattle a year, or an increase of 15 per cent. in our beef production.

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I want for a few moments to speak particularly about pigs, because I happen to have been keeping and breeding pigs for the last 20 years. What is the real lesson that we have learnt from the last set of statistics? In June, 1948, on the farms of Great Britain we had 1,800,000 pigs. In December, 1948, we had 2,472,000 pigs. That looks like some progress at last towards regaining the prewar total of four million pigs. If we look more closely at those figures, and particularly at the gilts in pig—a gilt in pig is a young female pig that has gone to the boar for the first time, I need not tell the right hon. Lady how long it will take to produce a litter because she must not learn more than one lesson in natural history in one afternoon—all I would say is that the number of gilts in pig is the best barometer as to what is to happen in the future. In June, 1948, the gilts in pig numbered 82,000 and in December, 1948, 49,000. That means that farmers who had started to extend their pig breeding called a halt.
Why did they do that? Because the promise of feedingstuffs which has been made by the Lord President of the Council and other Ministers who went to the microphone has not been fulfilled. We had a promising rise in the number of pigs, and then we had this fall. I hope that is to be put right, and that we shall have no more shilly-shallying but a continuous rise until we get at least four million pigs. Today the Government have accumulated stocks of barley and other coarse grains sufficient to maintain existing rations for pigs and poultry until September. But it seems that they are very uncertain about their new trading friends the Russians, and others in that circle, and that they dare not take the risk of issuing more rations and so getting a real expansion in pig production.
Other European countries are using Marshall Aid dollars for the purpose of getting a flying start in the pig expansion programme. Here the Government are content with a home production of pigs which this year will not be more than 43 per cent. of pre-war and next year will be not more than 50 per cent. That is a miserably despondent target. I hope that now that fat pig prices are put into better
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balance with barley prices, we shall get a move on and expand the number of pigs, but we must first of all ensure increased rations of feedingstuffs.
Therefore, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, I endorse what the hon. Member for Epping has said. We must see that somehow the pledge which the Lord President of the Council gave is carried out, and that we do get a flying start in this increase of feedingstuffs rations for pigs because—and I should like the Minister of Food to take this seriously—it would be the greatest boon to the housewives of this country if they could go into a butcher's shop and buy pork freely and get a bacon ration that could be recognised. I say to the Minister of Food that we could get back to the pre-war production of pig meat in this country in 18 months and then go ahead to expand another 50 per cent., or whatever the needs of the time may demand.
This target of 50 per cent. of pre-war production, which is all that the Government contemplate at the moment, is far too low. In my view we should not only give more feedingstuffs rations immediately, which could be done by using what we have in store, which is sufficient to last until September, but we could prudently cover ourselves now with more purchases made with Marshall Aid dollars so that we can get ahead. If that is done, and if we abolish all restrictions on pig keeping, we shall very largely solve this problem.
I want to pay tribute to what the pig clubs have done. This is a great movement which succeeds by mutual self-help in overcoming all the frustrations and obstacles that the Minister of Food, in his wisdom puts in the way of the man who wants to keep a pig. The pig club movement is producing 250,000 pigs a year. I believe that number could be stepped up to 500,000 pigs a year, and that most of that extra production would not cost much imported foodstuffs but would be largely accounted for by extra kitchen waste that could be collected. The dustmen of Tottenham who started this kitchen waste collection did so because they wanted to get something with which to feed their pigs. I believe that if the Minister of Food inquired of the pig clubs he would find that a man would be willing to keep two pigs and

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send one to the Ministry of Food if he could get extra rations for keeping that pig to match up with the swill which be takes the trouble to get, and that we could get 250,000 pigs from that source.
The Minister of Food should keep it clearly in mind that the man with a family who keeps one pig today is a good father and a good husband; the man who keeps 20 pigs or 100 pigs is a public benefactor, and he should not be frustrated and held up at every turn as he is today. What hope have we of getting some sense into the head of the Minister of Food on this point? I know that he really believes in his heart that this is only a passing phase, and that quickly we shall be able to buy at reasonable prices all the food that we need from abroad. I do not believe that is going to happen.
I wish that the Prime Minister were here, because I believe that he must do as the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) used to do sometimes during the war. He should call to Down-Mg Street the Minister of Food and the Minister of Agriculture, and also the Lord President of the Council, who has interested himself in this problem, and get them to discuss their differences with him. He should then shut them up in a room and insist on their agreeing on an immediate programme for increased meat production on the lines which I have suggested. We should then very quickly get more pigs and that we should quickly get a workable scheme for reclaiming for meat production those hills and marginal land which have been spoken about tonight.
8.28 p.m.
Mr. Medland: In the Debate today we have had speeches from the meat producer, the pig producer, the butcher and everybody connected with the meat trade. I am not connected with any of those activities; I am just one of the people who try, when they get the opportunity, to eat some of it, and when we have not the opportunity to look for something to put in its place. I want to address three questions to the Minister of Food in the interest of that section of the community which is vitally interested in this question every weekend.
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The first question is, how strong is the liaison between the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Food on this matter, because we should like to see a lot more evidence of it than we have done in the past? If there is a strong liaison between them would he tell the Committee why it was that they lost the battle of Dartmoor; and why it was they allowed the soldiers and sailors to take over some of the best grazing land in the West Country instead of using it for the production of meat?
Why is it, when lime is so necessary to enable us to rear two bullocks in place of one, that they are allowing lime kilns to be shut down on Dartmoor instead of producing the lime to supply to the farmers who are asking for it? Is it yet too late to stop some of the best grazing land in the West Country from being used for training marines for a war which might never come? I am sure that I shall want some meals next year, while I am not sure about that next war, and I would prefer to see Dartmoor used for the production of meat rather than for training soldiers. Does the Minister think there is any chance of winning that battle? I do not think he has lost it finally, if he likes to make a fight of it.
Today we have listened to a great deal about the Argentine. In my city we have a wonderful Co-operative Society, which has 50,000 registered customers for meat. The general manager instructed his shop managers to take a concensus of opinion amongst customers on what should be done about Argentine meat, and whether they thought we ought to pay the price demanded. He has told me that there was 100 per cent. resistance to paying that price. I think everybody in the Committtee is agreed on that. Ever since I have been in the House of Commons I have never heard in one afternoon so many speeches from hon. Member opposite with which I agreed. On this question there seems to be unanimity.
We are in for a shortage. Indeed, it is with us. Will the Minister tell us what he is doing to fill up the gap? After all, I must eat. What is he doing to put something on my plate now that the meat has gone? What steps is he taking to increase the allocation of imported poultry and rabbits? I live in a city fronted by the sea and backed by 35 miles of agricultural land; the nearest

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large town is 35 miles away. Mysteriously enough, where there used to be thousands of rabbits there are now none; every rabbit has disappeared. There used to be thousands of chickens, but bless my soul! they have gone where the rabbits have gone; they are certainly not available for the people in the city. Now I thought that was a most interesting phenomenon which ought to be inquired into.
Mr. Eden: It is commonly called the law of supply and demand.
Mr. Medland: I thought I would inquire to see what was happening? What did I find? I found that, although the Minister had fixed a price for chickens—I think it was 2s. 11d. per lb. —
Mr. Shurmer: They were all going into the black market.
Mr. Medland: —to be sold in our Co-operative butchers shops, whenever I asked for one I was told, "Sorry, old chap. We haven't got any." When I went to see the general manager to ask why, he said, "Because we have given instructions that no buying is to take place outside the declared instructions from the Ministry of Food, so we cannot get them." I then discovered that for chickens and hens the price charged to general suppliers by the people in the area—these poor downtrodden farmers who are having such a bad time these days—was £1 per chicken or hen for every bird of 4½ lb. and upwards, bought in bulk. The hoteliers have a different scale. The price for chickens of 2½ lb. and upward to hoteliers, for dinners for the Mercantile Association and similar people who must be fed, was 15s. per bird. I want the Minister to tell me: What is being done by all the food inspectors who are supposed to be looking after this kind of thing? Why are not these supplies of chickens and rabbits generally available? Rabbits are sold by every farmer in the area at a fixed price of 3s. each. I remember when we could get one for 4d. or 8d.
Mr. Drayson: That was in the days of Tory misrule.
Mr. Medland: Today the price is 3s. each, but we do not see them in the shops because they are going to special suppliers and people who can pay the price for them. I want to know what the
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Minister is doing to stop this ramp all over the country—because we in my city are not alone in this—and whether we can get an increased importation of rabbits and poultry so that the ordinary people can buy them from their own Co-operative stores and other suppliers. The Minister ought to tell us what he has in mind for meeting this shortage in view of the present meat situation. If he tells us that, I, and no doubt other hon. Members, will be very grateful.
Some day or another we shall return to better meat supplies. I hope that day is not far off; I do not think it is as far off as some people think, because I have great faith in our people; if they are given a job they will get it done some way or another, and I believe we can get this job done by growing a very much larger proportion of our meat supply.
I should also like the Minister to tell us his policy for butchering the meat in future. I am a member of a local authority which has been trying to provide facilities for obtaining clean meat, so that it can be properly inspected and cooled before it goes to the consumer. We have been waiting for five or six years for a declaration of policy from the Minister, on whether the local authorities have to provide abattoirs or whether there are to be regional abattoirs. We ought to be doing the work now, if we are to make this provision for the future. Tonight, my right hon. Friend ought to make some declaration for the guidance of local people, because that would help us considerably in planning for the future, as we are doing in my own district, where we have to move these facilities out in building a new city.
8.40 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smiles: I should like to be as constructive as I can in the short time at my disposal. I have heard nearly all the speeches and I have heard the blame for this meat shortage being put on conditions which existed as early as the 15th century. Certainly the shortage was started in 1940 by the Battle of Britain, when we had to plough up so much arable land. I will begin by confining my attention to Northern Ireland and the amount of agricultural produce which we ship from there now. At the present time we ship 13 million gallons of milk to England and Scotland, 161,000

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live animals, 25 million dozen eggs and 11 million lbs. poultry. I have been informed by the farmers over there that they could double this output, and they have some constructive suggestions to offer.
Last Friday night I was at a meeting at which this matter was discussed. It is, of course, a far cry from Epping or Plymouth to County Down, but most of the people who spoke to me were farmers or agricultural workers. One of the first suggestions made was that from these 161,000 animals which are shipped across the water there could be a considerable saving of beef. It was pointed out to me that in the boat journey across, especially if it is rough, and in going into the railway trains the animals lose 1 cwt. per animal live weight. It was pointed out to me that if those animals were killed in Belfast or near the steamer and were then shipped, it would mean an increase of some 4,000 or 5,000 tons of fresh meat for the people of Great Britain.
The next point that was mentioned to me by those farmers was the question of what they call in County Down yellow meal. It is a mixture probably of maize and linseed. They told me that the quality of the feedingstuff they are getting now with which to feed their beasts is not nearly as good as it was prewar. Of course, that is common in all food. These farmers complain bitterly about this yellow meal, and they say that in the hard winters which we get in Northern Ireland it is this meal that has to feed the beasts and keep them well.
Another suggestion made to me was that it might be possible for maize, if not for all coarse grains, to be bought by private enterprise. I believe that at the present moment our grain merchants are buying grain all over the world, but it cannot be imported into these islands. It can be bought and sold between two foreign countries and our grain merchants are securing a substantial invisible income to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When I pointed out to these farmers our difficulties with regard to exchange rates and dollars, they said, "What are our banks for? For years before the war we used to work hard on an overdraft and made a very good living out of that overdraft, too."
Another suggestion that was made led me to put down a question two weeks
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ago to the Minister of Food. It was that farmers and agricultural workers might be allowed to keep one single pig without much interference. It is generally supposed that the people who live in the country live better and have better meals than the people who live in the cities and towns. That is an erroneous idea. In the morning many of these farm workers go away from their homes and do not come back until night time and so their wives have to give them what is called "a piece" for their dinner. In the old days before the war this very often consisted of two or three rashers of bacon between the bread, but today it is impossible to get the bacon. If hon. Members opposite "ask their dad," they will be told what the price of bacon was then.
Mr. Shurmer: What were the wages then?
Sir W. Smiles: It certainly was possible to have a rasher or two of bacon between the bread. In his answer the Minister of Food said that it was not possible to allow farmers or agricultural workers to keep a single pig without the necessary laws in regard to inspection being enforced. The people do not like these inspections. A great many of those people in the country always kept one or two pigs. Indeed, in Ireland the pig was known as "the gentleman who pays the rent," and I believe that if more licences were given to farmers and agricultural workers the pig population would increase. A great deal of swill that would feed the pigs is lost at the present moment because the people do not bother to collect it. The reason they do not do so is these regulations which the right hon. Gentleman thinks proper and just to maintain.
At the meeting to which I have referred the question of the Argentine Agreement was mentioned, and the opinion there was just the same as that of most people here—that the Argentine was taking an unfair advantage so as to twist the lion's tail. Anything that the Minister of Food does to prevent that would have our support. The Parliamentary Secretary gave us a great many figures to digest. The present ration may improve our figures, but it gives us very little to digest.
8.48 p.m.
Mr. Burden: I should not have intervened in this Debate but for the fact that I believe that, notwithstanding our present difficulties with the

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Argentine, it is in the mutual interests of this country and the Argentine that these difficulties should be settled. Just as in the long run they will want to sell us their meat, so we desire the Argentine market for many of our industrial products. It is because I believe that a wrong slander has somehow or other crept into this Debate that I would venture to give the House some figures which have been supplied to me.
What did the Andes Agreement provide for? It provided for 382,000 tons plus the yield from Patagonia. Then, in addition, there were 20,000 tons of corned beef. What happened then? From that huge quantity of meat, allocations were made to three groups of firms—importers, industrialists and slaughterers—an American, an English and an Argentine group. The Committee should remember that those allocations were based on the Roca-Runciman Agreement of 1934, confirmed in 1936. The allocations were: the American grout,. 49 per cent.: the English group, 20 5 per cent. and the Argentine group, 31 per cent. I am not tonight concerned either to defend or attack the present system, but it is well that we should know the facts of the case.
How have these groups met their allocations? It is not always realised that after the price has been fixed by the Argentine Government and this Government, these separate firms have to go into the open market and buy their meat. The Argentine Government do not arrange that. With a quota of 49 per cent., the American group, consisting of Swift, Armour and Wilson, were called upon to supply this country with 193,730 tons. They have supplied 139,700 tons or 72.1 per cent. of their quota. The English group—the Vestey (Anglo) group—were called upon to supply 78,158 tons. They have shipped and supplied 54,000 tons or 66.22 per cent. of their quota. What about the Argentine firms? Five of them in the group were allocated 110,900 tons. They have shipped and supplied 115,600 tons or a percentage of 104.23–4.23 more than their allocation.
I have intervened simply to give those figures because, in view of the fact that ultimately we must reach an agreement with the Argentine Government, nothing should be said here to make arriving at
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that agreement more difficult, and in some measure the case for the Argentine Government should be stated.
8.53 p.m.
Captain Crookshank: I hope that nothing which will be said from now to the end of the Debate will hinder in any way the delicate negotiations that are proceeding. I want to bring the Debate back for a few minutes to its original purpose, which was to discuss what the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) said was a great shock to the country, the cutting down of the meat ration. We have had a series of most interesting and very constructive speeches on how we might rebuild our home production and how we might assist increased production in other parts of the Empire, but very little has been said to bring home to the Government and to the Minister the Minister's responsibility for the present situation.
There was a most pathetic speech just now by the hon. Member for the Drake division of Plymouth (Mr. Medland) who asked what has going to happen, because he must eat when he goes home on Saturdays and Sundays. That brings out a point which we sometimes overlook in this House, that being industrial workers and having our own canteen, we are not personally acquainted during the Session with the difficulties of the ordinary family. Therefore, perhaps some of the things which are said here on this topic are said more easily than they would be if we were sitting at the corresponding time in our own kitchens. It is the responsibility of the Government. After all, rationing has been the system in this country for a long time now, and it is an obligation on the Government to fulfil the ration. It is quite true they manage to do that, but they drop the ration and so fulfil it in that way, and that is not a plan which we think is good; nor do the housewives of this country.
If I may comment on one or two of the things I have heard today, it is remarkable, for example, how the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) blamed the situation in which we are today on our pre-war arrangements. The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) thought that the damage had all been done in 1940. None of the hon. Gentlemen who sit behind the Government seem to think that anything is due

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to what happened in 1948–49, and that is the period which we are discussing today and which has brought us all these difficulties.
Mrs. Nichol: Hon. Members opposite never did like to discuss the past.
Captain Crookshank: There are some pasts and there are some other pasts—[An HON. MEMBER: "This is a bad past."]—and what the meat ration is today is nothing to do with the pre-war situation. The Committee has only to remember the point of which I shall now remind hon. Members, that just as ancient Gaul was divided into three parts, so our meat supplies come from three main sources—home production, Empire sources and foreign sources; and if the hon. Member wants to hark back to the past, he has only to remember that before the war we were producing in this country 45 per cent. of our needs and that the amount of meat was 1,250,000 tons, whereas today it is 500,000 tons less than that. So I do not think we need talk about the disadvantages of the pre-war situation, because everybody would be glad to get back to that amount of meat.
I remind the Committee that the distribution before the war was 1¼ million tons of home production, about 640,000 tons of imperial production, and about 900,000 tons of foreign production, whereas last year our home production was 750,000 tons—that is, half a million down—and different parts of the Empire sent us 706,000 tons instead of the prewar 642,000 tons, which was a considerable rise, though one must remember that within that total there is a difference of source. The New Zealand production has gone up, the Australian has gone down, and there have been other variations, but the net result has been an increase on pre-war from British sources, whereas last year the foreign dropped from the pre-war 902,000 to 421,000, a drop of nearly half a million tons. That is the difference between the situation today and the situation pre-war.
What is extraordinary about the whole meat problem is that the Government do not seem to be ambitious about future production. If one reads the "Economic Survey," which I suppose is the most up-to-date and authoritative statement on the subject, one finds that the estimates for the production are very
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unambitious. The table takes 100 for its pre-war average in beef and veal, and by 1949–50 it only expects to be at 93; for mutton and lamb it expects to be at 70, and for pigmeat at 50. One might say that is not long for what we are considering today, but the Government also produced a programme at the Committee on European Co-operation. There again, it is a most extraordinary thing to my mind, in view of the obvious difficulties which have been brewing for some time in the whole world meat position, that their forecast for 1952–53 is much less mutton and beef and pig-meat than we had in this country before the war in home production. I find that quite impossible to understand.
I do not see why the Government should have committed themselves to so small a programme so far ahead. As a matter of fact, even beef and veal are only about a fractional 10 per cent. increase on the pre-war figures, whereas the others are considerably down. This is most extraordinary. I hope that when he replies the right hon. Gentleman will tell us why so modest a target has been set, not for this year—there may have been some particular difficulties which he can explain—but for 1952 and 1953. Increased supplies of lamb, mutton, pork and bacon are all within the compass of our attainment if we set about doing it and collect the necessary feedingstuffs in time. Therefore, I should very much like the right hon. Gentleman to say something about this.
When we come to the subject of imperial development, there are two questions I should like the right hon. Gentleman to clear up. There is the question about Australia, which the right hon. Lady mentioned in her speech. She said—indeed, my right hon. Friend had already pointed out—that Mr. Chifley had made some statements on this subject. The right hon. Lady said, "Oh, yes, as a matter of fact, Sir Henry Turner"—I think that is his name— "went out to Australia as long ago as 1947 to see whether something could be done about increasing meat production out there."
If this adviser of the right hon. Gentleman went out to Australia as long ago as 1947, what on earth has been going on ever since? Obviously, if a programme of the kind referred to by Mr. Chifley

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was to be considered at all so as to be useful in the present world emergency—I accept the right hon. Lady's statement that this is not just a momentary phase; nutritional improvements all over the world are drawing upon the meat supplies of the world, and it is to everybody's interest that the meat supplies should be increased where and when they can be—why is it that, having gone into these discussions, having had some sort of preliminary talks, at any rate, as long ago as 1947, nothing happened until Wednesday of last week, when, quite unexpectedly, a Government statement was made on this subject in another place, tucked away in a Debate on quite a different subject? It is a most extraordinary performance on the part of the Government, which is given to many odd ones. I should like to know, therefore, why there has been so much delay before coming to any conclusion.
The second point on which perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to give an explanation concerns an interruption which he made earlier this afternoon when the hon. Member for North Cumberland was speaking. Something had been said by the hon. Member about Canada, and the right hon. Gentleman said, "Well, the Canadians have not got any bacon, if they had, we would buy it." I hope he will be able to amplify that, because the position as I remember it was that in 1945 his predecessor did all that he could to try to encourage the Canadians to provide us with more bacon. In fact, the Lord President of the Council, in the famous visit which he paid to Canada, invited the Canadians to push on with food exports in the spirit of—using his very familiar metaphor—the "battle against famine." That was in 1946, when the Lord President started up the battle against famine, but in 1947, as I understood it, the present Minister was somewhat abrupt with the Canadians and said that we really did not want any more, and so production was reduced. That is what has been generally accepted for a very long time.
Mr. Strachey: Oh, no.
Captain Crookshank: If the right hon. Gentleman has not contradicted it before, he will be very glad of the opportunity
1972
of doing so now; but certain it is that the Canadians have long felt somewhat sore at the treatment they have received from him.
I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider with his colleague the Minister of Agriculture the constructive speeches made by my hon. Friends the Members for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) and Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) about the possibility and the desirability of opening up more of the marginal land of this country. I should be very glad if he could take this opportunity of making some statement on the White Paper published last week relating to the Committee on Productivity, because it contains a most interesting paragraph on the agricultural industry. The committee develop the thesis that by the extra fertilisation and improvement of grassland something like £40 million of foreign exchange could be saved per annum in this country in a comparatively short time. I should like to know what the Minister has to say about that, whether he has recommended that to the Government or whether the Government are likely to accept such a recommendation.
I think that the situation from a long-term point of view has been deployed today. From the short-term point of view, everyone agrees that the only thing that can be done is to try to increase the production of pigmeat and poultry. These are the essentials. I do not know about the rabbits which the hon. Member for the Drake Division of Plymouth wants to have produced. There are elements of risk in trying to breed rabbits in unlimited quantities. I think we had better stick to livestock which are more easy and not quite so mobile or erratic, or rather erotic. We had better stick to pigs and poultry. From a short-term point of view the thing to do is obviously to try our best to get the maximum amount of feedingstuffs for them.
I must return to the Government's extraordinary attitude to that problem, upon which my right hon. Friend has already touched. I cannot understand what has happened to the Lord President of the Council. He must have known that in a Debate about feedingstuffs his famous pledge would be called into question. Only last month the Minister of Food reinforced it when I asked him whether it was still in being, and that we

1973
should be entitled, under any arrangements made by the Chancellor, to use scarce dollars for buying foodstuffs in the United States and Canada should we wish to do so. He replied:
"Yes, Sir, if necessary."—
If at this time it is not necessary, it never will be. This is surely the moment. It is not as if there were none available, because all the information which is available in every quarter about the maize situation and the coarse grain situation is that those feedingstuffs are very plentiful. So far as we know there is now no shortage, whatever may have been the case two years ago. One of the most extraordinary facts which emerges in all this complicated story is that the Lord President said that we would use scarce dollars and the Minister of Food last month reinforced it, and said:
"Yes, Sir, if necessary."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th March, 1949; Vol. 462, c. 1190.]
We find again, in the Economic Survey, which I suppose we shall be discussing more tomorrow, a sentence on the subject of imported feedingstuffs, which says:
"Since further supplies of imported feeding-stuffs are affected by supply and currency difficulties, and cannot be predicted with certainty, It is more than ever necessary to raise production of home-grown feedingstuffs."
We agree with that sentiment, but why does it refer to currency difficulties, when we have it on the highest authority that that is just the one thing which will not prevent our buying feedingstuffs abroad if they are necessary. I repeat if they are ever going to be necessary, they are necessary today. The queer part is that in the European Co-operation memorandum, which included some figures as to what were likely to be the requirements of this country for coarse grains in 1947–48, we gave our estimate as 1,700,000 tons.
That was the figure that we gave as our requirements, and in point of fact we did not buy that amount. We bought only 1,512,000 tons, so that we actually purchased less than we told the European Committee was our minimum requirement. But currency difficulties were not to count. It does not make sense. We have gone without these animal feedingstuffs and we have had this very much reduced pig and poultry population. What are we to do now? Surely we must get along as quickly as
1974
possible and make up for it. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) gave some disquieting figures as to the drop in production last December as compared with last July, which I hope will startle the right hon. Gentleman out of his apparent complacency on this important subject.
Because I know the right hon. Gentleman will have a lot to say—he ought to have a lot to say and certainly he is entitled to have a considerable period of time in which to say it—I do not intend to take the matter any further now; but I would point out to him that, while there are long-term projects which we agree have to be carefully studied for a gradually increased meat production owing to changing conditions in the world, what is important is that today we have to try and raise the meat ration in this country as soon as possible. If he could so arrange that the pork and bacon ration went up, that would be an equivalent which would be generally acceptable. If he could double or treble the bacon ration, in the difficult position in which he has got himself that would probably go a long way to satisfy some of the people concerned. But he must hurry up and get on with it.
I repeat that, interesting though the Debate has been, in practically every speech, sight has been lost of the fact that it is the cut in the meat ration today which we are discussing, and it is the responsibility of the Government for that cut which the Committee has to consider. After all, the late lamented Sir Ben Smith did not make a hundredth part of the mistakes which the right hon. Gentleman has made; he went off to the Coal Board. I do not know what the ultimate destination of the right hon. Gentleman may be, but if tonight is his swan-song I am sure there will be a sigh of relief throughout the country.
If there is one thing which is quite certain—and I am afraid it must have come to his own notice as well as to mine—it is that the country as a whole has lost confidence in his administration—[Interruption]—certainly. And I would say that the producers in the countryside, upon whom he depends for a great part of the foodstuffs which he distributes through his organisation, certainly have not the confidence in him which they ought to have. Nor are they satisfied that there is co-operation between him

1975
and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture who in these Debates never sits anywhere near him.
The right hon. Gentleman has broken three records. Whether he is proud of them or not I do not know, but they have all been to the detriment of the country. There was potato rationing, there was bread rationing, and there have been two cuts in the meat ration within the last two or three months. The right hon. Gentleman has a great responsibility in these matters. He has broken three records. I think that ought to be enough and that he had better go.
9.15 p.m.
The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I shall come later to the various remarks of a more serious character which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) made, but I cannot forbear commenting on one remark he made. He considered that the country had shown recently that they had lost confidence in the present Administration—
Captain Crookshank: No—in the Minister of Food.
Mr. Strachey: Well, we all stand together.
Colonel Gomme-Duncan: What about Dundee?
Mr. Strachey: I think we shall find that Dundee will follow in this matter at least the example of the other constituencies in this country. I was about to say if this is a loss of confidence in the present Administration, then long may we continue to enjoy such a loss of confidence. We shall continue Parliament after Parliament enjoying a loss of confidence if that is so, because the electorate persistently endorses us and repudiates the right hon. and gallant Gentleman.
I come to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). I think that we in this Committee and the country generally owe him a debt of gratitude for the way in which he made his speech and the restraint with which he dealt with the matter of the Argentine negotiations. He rightly stressed the very great gravity of the situation which has made us, forced us, to reduce the meat ration. Do not think for one moment that any one in any
1976
corner of this Committee for one second wants to suggest that it is not an exceedingly grave situation when our meat ration is as low as it is today.
My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary used some very well turned phrases when she put the matter in some perspective. A picture had been presented to the Committee of this country being far worse off for meat than any other country in this hemisphere. Really, that is not the case. The right hon. Gentleman rather twitted me and said that I had exaggerated the price of meat in France. He said that in reality the price of meat in France is only 4s. a pound.
Mr. Eden: I did not say that. The right hon. Gentleman was 100 per cent. wrong, which is not bad.
Mr. Strachey: No. I said that it was 8s. a pound or 4s. a kilo, which is the same thing. [Laughter.] Really hon. Gentlemen are surpassing themselves in childishness this evening. Eight shillings a pound and 4s. a kilo—
Captain Crookshank: There are two pounds in a kilo.
Mr. Strachey: I had alleged that the price of meat in France was 8s., and the right hon. Gentleman said that it was only 4s. That is exactly what I have been repeating here. There are two pounds to a kilo, are there not? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] I said that the price of meat was 8s. a pound. The right hon. Gentleman says that I am wrong and that it was 8s. a kilo or 4s. a pound. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That is what. I have been saying the whole evening. The right hon. Gentleman keeps repeating that the price is only 4s. a pound. I want him to go out into the country to the housewives of whom he has been speaking and to say, "The price of meat in France is only 4s. a pound." I say to him that, grievous as our present position is, and I do not deny that it is grievous, the housewives of this country would rather have even the present ration than the price of 4s. a pound, and that is the point which is never understood by hon. Members opposite, because 4s. a pound means very little to them, though it is a desperate matter for the housewives of this country.

1977
My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary was perfectly correct when she showed from the figures of the Food and Agriculture Organisation that, as a matter of fact, low as is our meat level, and no one denies it, the actual level of consumption in those unrationed countries of Europe has been very much lower. [HON. MEMBERS: "Two years ago."] No, precisely a year ago. The figures go up to exactly one year ago, and they show that the consumption of meat in Europe a year ago averaged 26 kilos per head per year. At that time, the consumption in this country averaged 49 kilos per head per year. We do not know what it may be this year, but, even if it is as low as today, it is considerably more than the average level in Europe in those unrationed countries. That is what hon. Gentlemen opposite will never understand—that these unrationed countries may be consuming considerably less of these foodstuffs than we are with our ration, low as it is in this country at present.
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson Mr. Godfrey Nicholson (Farnham)rose—
Mr. Strachey: No, I must get on. It is precisely because the people of this country understand that fact that they continue to give us their support, in spite of the difficulties they have to go through.
The next point to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and it was repeated by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who summed up, was about Australia, and he asked me for an assurance that we were going to give the Australian Government the assurances and guarantees for which they had asked. I am very glad to give him that assurance, but I was struck by the fact that he came to ask me that question after throwing out very serious criticism of the Government's trading policy in bulk buying and long-term contracts. He instanced Eire, and said that in that case this Government had made a bad blunder. He quoted the Eire Minister of Agriculture as complaining that he could not make the British buy Eire cattle.
That is an unfortunate instance for him to have Chosen, because, in that particular instance, rightly or wrongly, we leave the buying of Eire cattle purely to private enterprise. We have no powers to
1978
force private enterprise to buy, but perhaps we might consider the urgings of the right hon. Gentleman and introduce State trading into that field also. It was a curious argument—this urging, which I certainly think is well justified, to make the longest possible long-term contracts with the Australian Government and give them the assurance so that they can buy from us what they require for the capital development schemes which they must put up if they are largely to increase the supply of meat to this country.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me to say definitely whether the British Government are prepared to meet the Australian Government on any reasonable proposal with a really long-term guarantee, and I assure him that we are so prepared. He further asked me whether the Australian Government know this, and whether we have informed them, and I say that we informed them of it months ago. We were delighted to read in the newspapers only the other day that the Australian Prime Minister, who will be in this country very soon, is coming here prepared with definite schemes and a definite proposal to us, on which I am sure we shall be able to make our arrangements and agreements, so as to get this very great scheme, this very long-term scheme, of development in Australia into actual operation.
At that point the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington raised the question of coarse grains and animal feedingstuffs, a question which has been raised by a great many hon. Members during the Debate. I shall deal with the whole picture and not reply to individual Members. What is the picture which right hon. and hon. Members opposite have endeavoured to give to the Committee of the position of animal feeding-stuffs? They have tried—and it is within the recollection of the Committee—to paint a picture of a supine Government which was simply, for some strange reasons of its own, refusing to take any steps to buy feedingstuffs in anything like adequate quantities for the farmers and stock-breeders. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That is precisely the picture and I am glad to have my remarks endorsed. That is the picture which hon. Gentlemen opposite have tried to paint of the Government's conduct in the question of coarse grains.

1979
Let us look at the figures of what has been done. Let us take the post-war years. It is perfectly true that in the years immediately after the war—and I shall give the reasons in a moment, although any hon. Member who has forgotten them must have a very short memory—this country was not able to purchase millions of tons of cereals for animal feeding. For reasons which I shall give we might even have hesitated to do so, even if we could have purchased those cereals. In the year 1945–46—these are crop years—we imported only 414,000 tons of cereals for animal feedingstuffs. That was the low point. What did we do in the next year? In 1946–47 we imported 670,000 tons of coarse grains for animal feedingstuffs. In 1947–48 that figure of our imports of coarse grains had risen to 1,647,000 tons and in 1948–49, the year we are just completing, our coarse grains imports will reach 2,282,000 tons.
It really is ridiculous for hon. Gentlemen opposite, in the face of those figures, to carry on with the pretence that we are not importing coarse grains into the country. Let me comment on those figures. Why was it that the figures were low in 1945–46? Have right hon. and hon. Members opposite really forgotten what the condition of the world was at that time? Have they forgotten that at that time there was a 12 million tons deficit, not of animal feedingstuffs but of human feedingstuffs, of cereals in the world? Have they forgotten that at that time this country—my predecessor did it, but all honour to him for doing it—exported feedingstuffs? My predecessor had to send to a starving Germany and a starving Europe his barley and maize, not for animal feedingstuffs but to keep alive human beings who would be dead today if we had taken those coarse grains and used them for animal feedingstuffs. Have they forgotten that at that time the French, whose position has been instanced so often this afternoon, were putting 30 per cent. of maize into their bread, and again in the year after that? Have they forgotten that at that time a great part of the British Commonwealth, India, was in a position of semi-starvation, desperately importing cereals on a scale far greater than normal because her supplies of rice were almost completely cut off?
1980
The Committee has been given this picture of a lazy, useless Government which will not import coarse grains to feed British animals. [Interruption.] I take that noise to mean that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite really do say that any—
Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of Order. Would it be in Order for my right hon. Friend to repeat the last four sentences of his speech, which were completely lost to those on this side of the Committee who want to hear what he has to say?
Mr. Strachey: I can quite imagine why right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are trying to drown what I am saying, because the applause apparently endorses my statement that they really think that the British Government in 1945 to 1946, even if they could, ought to have poured down the throats of British animals those hundreds of thousands of tons of coarse grains which, in fact, were used to feed starving people of the world. That, apparently, causes intense amusement to hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman appears to be replying to me. The fact is that on this side of the Committee no one mentioned 1945 and 1946. [Interruption.] I am only trying to put a point to the right hon. Gentleman. I say that in the whole Debate no one on this side has mentioned 1945 and 1946. What we have asked repeatedly and ask again is: why the Lord President's pledge, given in the Autumn of 1947, has not been carried out?
Mr. Strachey Mr. Strachey rose—
Hon. Members: Answer.
The Chairman (Major Milner): Hon. Gentlemen must permit the right hon. Gentleman to continue his speech.
Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. May I call your attention to the fact, Major Milner, that during the closing remarks of my right hon. Friend there was constant interruption? One hon. Gentleman opposite and an hon. Lady opposite, below the Gangway, constantly interrupted. May I further call your attention to the fact that there is a custom in this Chamber that if one side is interrupted the other is as well.
The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman has been very much interrupted. He

1981
has only a limited time in which to speak—
Sir Waldron Smithers: A good job too.
The Chairman: —and must be permitted, as others have been, to complete his speech.
Mr. Strachey: The right hon. Gentleman denies that there has been mention of 1945 and 1946. Then he must come to the present year. We were importing only 414,000 tons, but now we have imported 2,282,000 tons. It is utterly untrue that as soon as world conditions made it possible and made it right to import considerable quantities of cereals for animal feedingstuffs in this country the Government failed to seize every opportunity to do so. Is this all?
I have given only the import figures. Now we come to the overall figures. We have had constant accusations during the whole of the day that we are failing to stimulate home production of cereals and of every kind of food. I give the figures—they have been available—of both imports and home production for distribution for the animal feedingstuffs ration. In 1945 there were 3,250,000 tons; in 1946, 3 million tons; in 1947, 3,500,000 tons; in 1948, 4,250,000 tons; and we believe that in 1949 the figure will be between 4,500,000 and 5 million tons—a steady increase and improvement.
Sir W. Smiles: That is why we have so much meat.
Mr. Strachey: Is that all? That is not all. That is the animal feedingstuffs in coarse grains of every type, including wheat offal. As well as that, we have been able to allow the farmers of this country to retain larger quantities of their cereals than ever before. In the case of barley, up to the 1947 harvest a farmer was able to retain only 5 per cent. of his crop of barley. Up to the 1948 harvest he retained 25 per cent. of his barley and now, coming to the 1949 harvest, he can, if he wishes, retain all his barley for animal feeding. In wheat, up to the 1947 harvest he could retain only 5 per cent., in 1948 he could retain 25 per cent., and in 1949 he will probably be able again to retain at least 25 per cent. These figures are in addition to the ones which I have just given and show that the total availability has gone up more steeply.
1982
The actual total amount of animal feedingstuffs which will be available this year will be, we reckon, some 6¾ million tons, which is well on the way to a restoration of the pre-war position. Therefore, this whole picture of failure to buy animal feedingstuffs and to provide animal feedingstuffs, which unquestionably is a most important thing to do, has no element of fact in it whatever; and it is frightfully important that we on this side of the Committee should know the figures and be ready to rebut the base charges which have no element of fact and which have been made this afternoon and this evening. Let me say that by simply repeating over and over again—
Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: What about the ration? Where is the meat?
Mr. Strachey: We are talking about animal feedingstuffs. There has been a steady increase in the distribution of these rations, and it is very important that these utterly baseless charges, in respect of which no figures have ever been produced to substantiate a single one of them, should be met by the accurate figures which I have given to the Committee today.
I was asked by the right hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate to give the figures—and this matter was referred to by several other hon. Members—of the pig population of this country, and suggestions were made that after some increase the pig population is now rapidly diminishing. The figures are these: In December, 1946, breeding sows and gilts, which are the things which really matter, numbered 150,000; at the end of December, 1947, 205,000; and at the end of December, 1948, 269,000 Once again there is not the slightest element of fact in the suggestion which has been made again and again that somehow or other—
Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: What about 1938?
Mr. Strachey: In 1938 they were, of course, far larger than that. We have had to build up from the very low level of 150,000 sows. That surely is the relevant figure. We were then told that the poultry population of this country was going down. The poultry population has reached and passed the pre-war level. It is perfectly untrue to say that the very large tonnages of animal feedingstuffs

1983
which I have mentioned have not had their effect. They have had their effect in restoring, as rapidly as is humanly possible, the animal population of this country, first of pigs and poultry because the breeding cycle is much quicker, and also of cattle.
Now I come to another point which the right hon. Gentleman has asked me to cover, and of which a great deal has been made, although I think there is very little in it. That is the statement by the Lord President of the Council that dollars would be used if necessary to buy animal feedingstuffs. That statement is perfectly true. Like every other raw material—because animal feedingstuffs is a raw material for the agricultural industry, just as cotton is a raw material for the textile industry—we shall always buy feeding-stuffs if we can from sterling sources or other non-dollar sources, but if it is impossible to get it from those sources, then I repeat the statement of the Lord President of the Council that we shall, if necessary, use even scarce dollars to buy animal feedingstuffs. I really cannot see any mystery, or any repudiation whatever of that pledge in the statements which have been made on this subject.
Mr. Frank Byers: Does that mean the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that he is getting sufficient feedingstuffs from the sterling area, and that he need not therefore enter the dollar area at the moment?
Mr. Strachey: Certainly not from the sterling area; it is from non-dollar sources as a whole. It depends on how much we are able to get from those sources. Last year, for example, we bought over a million tons from the Argentine. Well, we shall see how much we get from that source. Last year we got three-quarters of a million tons from Russia. It depends on what tonnage we get from that source also. We certainly do not rule out buying from dollar sources if the situation requires it, and if prices, which are much more reasonable of course this year than last, make it possible to do so. I cannot go further than that.
Mr. Byers: Then in the right hon. Gentleman's own opinion the present situation does not require that action?
Mr. Strachey: I cannot give an answer to that. It depends entirely on the out-
1984
come of the negotiations which are going on in Buenos Aires and elsewhere. That fact is so obvious that I am quite sure hon. Members opposite understand it perfectly well themselves.
I must now come to the speech of the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson), because, quite frankly, that was the one really unfortunate speech made in this Debate. I very much regretted that he, and I think he alone, did not follow the example of his right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington and eschew some things which, to say the least of it, can hardly be helpful in the present position of our negotiations with the Argentine. He kept adjuring us not to be mealymouthed and the like, and to speak out with the utmost frankness. What did his non-mealymouthedness or frankness amount to? It amounted to saying that the whole problem over the Andes Agreement was that we had driven a terribly hard bargain. Well, when I think of how this country has been treated on the Andes Agreement, not necessarily by the persons undertaking the negotiations with the Argentine State today—that is a different matter—but by Senor Miranda and the men who were in office and in power in the Argentine at the time of the Andes Agreement, and when an hon. Member in this House suggests that it was we who were in the wrong over the Andes Agreement and that we drove some unconscionable bargain—I do not want to detail the respects in which the Argentine regime of that time defaulted on that Agreement—it does seem, to put it mildly, rather bad luck on our negotiators to have that view of the situation put to us in the House this afternoon.
Sir D. Robertson: Will the House accept from me my assurances that I conceive that I was sent here to do my public duty in public? I make it very plain in my speech that I resented the efforts of the Government to cover themselves with a cloak of unnecessary secrecy. I felt that this matter should be openly discussed, because the Argentine people have been friends of ours for over a century, and I feel that only great good can be derived by recognising that fact. I did not say that a hard bargain had been made. I asked if a hard bargain had been made; and if it had been made, I pointed out facts which would have been apparent to the—
The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member has had his opportunity of addressing the Committee. We cannot have another speech from him.
Mr. Strachey: All I can say is that we were entitled to something a little better at this moment than that speech, from which, in every word, there emerged the fact that the hon. Member's hatred of the present Government and the methods of State trading far transcended any wish of his to help his country's negotiations. If at this point I might refer back to the remarks made by the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough, who said that the electorate had shown their lack of confidence in the present Government—
Captain Crookshank: The right hon. Gentleman must not consistently misrepresent what I said. I let it go twice before because I thought it was a slip of the tongue. I never said anything about the Administration as such. I said that the people of this country had no confidence in his administration, that is in the administration of his own Department by the right hon. Gentleman himself.
Mr. Strachey: If the people of this country had such a lack of confidence of my administration of my present office, they would certainly have shown it at the by-elections. That is the reason I was about to say that it is in speeches from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that their political prejudice always emerges so much stronger than their patriotism.
Hon. Members: Mosleyite.
The Chairman: Order!
Mr. Martin Lindsay: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for an ex-member of the Fascist Party to cast aspersions on—[Interruption.]
The Chairman: I do not think any point of Order arises.
Mr. John Paton: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for hon. Members of the Opposition to make a lying accusation against my right hon. Friend?
Mr. Quintin Hogg: On a point of Order—
The Chairman: We can only have one point of Order at a time. I am not in a
1986
position to say whether the accusation was a lying accusation or not.
Mr. Hogg: On a point of Order. I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton) insinuate that something was a lying accusation. Do you, Major Milner, think that the word "lying" should be used towards members of the Opposition? I would ask you to ask him to repeat those words in order that they may be taken down, and I would ask you to ask him to withdraw the words "lying accusation." Can we not have the protection of the Chair?
The Chairman: If one Member accuses another of telling a lie or being a liar it would be proper for me to ask him to withdraw. I did not gather that that was the imputation in this case. I do not, therefore, propose to ask the hon. Member to withdraw.
Mr. Hogg: Further to that point of Order, Major Milner, I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Norwich use the words "lying accusation." I believe I am in Order in asking him in your presence to confirm or deny what I have asserted.
The Chairman: If the hon. Member for Norwich did make any accusation that a Member of this House, whether on one side or the other, was telling a lie or was a liar, then, of course, he should withdraw. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] If that was not the case, perhaps the hon. Member will indicate so to me.
Mr. Strachey: Further to that point of Order—
Mr. Hogg Mr. Hogg rose—
The Chairman: Order. Mr. Paton.
Mr. Paton: With the greatest respect to the Chair, Major Milner, I made my observation after a wholly false accusation that a Minister of the Crown was a Fascist had been made from the other side.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. M. Lindsay Mr. M. Lindsay rose—
The Chairman: Order. We cannot continue on these lines. Having regard to what the hon. Member for Norwich has said, I do not propose to direct him to withdraw—
Mr. Hogg Mr. Hogg rose—
The Chairman: I call on Mr. Strachey to continue and I must decline to hear the hon. Member for Oxford again.
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Hogg: Further to that point of Order—
The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman has twice repeated his point of Order, if not, indeed, three times.
Mr. Hogg: I have not.
The Chairman: I have indicated my view of it and I shall have to direct him to resume his seat—
Mr. Hogg: I have done so.
The Chairman: —and to allow the Minister to continue his speech. Mr. Strachey.
Earl Winterton: May we have a clear Ruling on this point, Major Milner? In my hearing and in that of many other hon. Members on this side of the Committee, the hon. Member for Norwich used the words "lying accusation."
Mr. Hogg: And has confirmed it.
Earl Winterton: May we be told whether the words "lying accusation" are in Order, and, if they are in Order, may I move that the words be taken down for the future benefit of hon. Members of this House? May I avail myself of an old Rule by moving that those words be taken down?
The Chairman: I have dealt with the matter and it must rest where it is.
Mr. Strachey Mr. Strachey rose—
Earl Winterton Earl Winterton rose—[Interruption.]
The Chairman: Order. Earl Winterton.
Earl Winterton: I am not, of course, controverting your Ruling, Major Milner, but do I understand that you decline to give a Ruling as to whether the words "lying accusation" are or are not in Order? I ask this in order to get it clear.
The Chairman: I have dealt with the matter. I believe the Rule is that matters of that sort cannot be taken down after there have been intervening proceedings as in this case. Mr. Strachey.
Mr. Strachey: I would only wish to say that I would accept from the hon. Member that he made the statement in all good faith and ignorance. It has, of
1988
cours, no foundation in fact, and I would invite the hon. Member, if her did say it to withdraw.
Mr. M. Lindsay: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman says, I will certainly withdraw it, but I am sure that you, Major Milner, will understand our resentment at insinuations against the patriotism of hon. Members on this side.
Mr. Strachey: This little interlude has, I am afraid, made it impossible for me to refer to a great many points raised by hon. and right hon. Members opposite and many on this side of the Committee. There is one thing which I think I should say in this Committee this evening and that is to refer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."]—This is entirely uncontroversial. This is to refer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."]—to the present negotiations going on in Buenos Aires—
Hon. Members: Divide.
The Chairman: Hon. Members must permit the Minister to finish his speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] It is not in Order continually to repeat the word "Divide." I must ask hon. Members to permit the Minister to continue for the moment or two remaining.
Hon. Members: Why?
Mr. Nally: When you were giving your Ruling, Major Milner, and were suggesting to the House that the Minister should be allowed to continue, there were loud cries from the other side which seemed to me to indicate that there was no intention to allow the Minister to make his speech. I want to ask you whether an arrangement can be made that the facts which the Minister was undoubtedly about to present to the House—[Laughter.]—and which he is being deliberately prevented from giving to the House, can be included in HANSARD instead.
The Chairman: Obviously no such arrangement could be made. No doubt the Minister has his own means of giving publicity to anything.
Mr. Strachey: The Opposition have succeeded in one thing, and in one thing only—they have prevented me from speaking on the subject of the present negotiations in Buenos Aires. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."] I am glad to say that the facts and figures—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."]—had been fully

1989
given—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."]—before they began to make the inarticulate noises which, apparently, are the only form of Debate which they can now allow themselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."] With that, Major Milner. I shall sit down.
Captain Crookshank: I beg to move, "That Item Class IX, Vote 2, Ministry of Food, be reduced by £5."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes. 185; Noes, 247.

Division No. 96]

AYES

[9.59 p.m.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V

Peake, Rt Hon. O.

Aitken, Hon. Max

Haughton, S. G.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Amory, D. Heathcoal

Head, Brig. A. H.

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

Prescott, Stanley

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Aster, Hon. M.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Baldwin, A. E

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Raikes, H. V.

Barlow, Sir J.

Hollis, M. C.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Baxter, A. B.

Howard, Hon. A.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Beech man, N. A.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr, N. J.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Bossom, A. C.

Hurd, A.

Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

Bowen, R.

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bower, N.

Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

Jennings, R.

Ropner, Col. L.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Keeling, E. H.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Butcher, H. W.

Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H

Savory, Prof. D. L

Byers, Frank

Lambert, Hon. G.

Scott, Lord W.

Carson, E.

Lancaster., Col. C. G.

Shephard, S. (Newark)

Challen, C.

Langford-Holt, J

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Channon, H

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Smithers, Sir W.

Cole, T. L.

Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

Snadden, W. M.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Linstead, H. N.

Spearman, A. C. M

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Lipson, D. L.

Spence, H. R.

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col, O. E

Low, A. R. W.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Crowder, Capt John E

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

Cuthbert, W. N.

Lucas-Tooth, S. H.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J (Moray)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

Studholme, H. G.

Davidson, Viscountess

McCallum, Maj. D.

Sutcliffe, H.

De la Bere, R.

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

McFarlane, C. S.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (p'dd'tn, S)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Teeling, William

Donner, P. W.

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Drayson, G. B.

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. 'Harold (Bromley)

Touche, G. C.

Eccles, D. M.

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Turton, R. H.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Walter

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Vane, W. M. F.

Errol, F. J.

Marsden, Capt. A.

Wadsworth, G.

Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Wakefield, Sir W. W

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Maude, J. C.

Walker-Smith, D.

Fox, Sir G.

Medlicott, Brigadier F

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

Mclor, Sir j.

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Molson, A. H. E.

Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Gage, C.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

Molt-Radclyffe, C. E.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Neill, Sir William (Belfast, N.)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Glyn, Sir R.

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

Nicholson, G.

York, C.

Gridley, Sir A.

Nield, B. (Chester)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Grimston, R. V.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Odey, G. W.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Harden, J. R. E.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Mr. Drewe.

NOES

Acland, Sir Richard

Austin, H. Lewis

Bing, G. H. C.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Awbery, S. S

Blackburn, A. R

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

Bacon, Miss A.

Blenkinsop, A.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Baird, J.

Blyton, W. R.

Alpass, J. H.

Balfour, A.

Bottomley, A. G.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Barton, C.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

Attewell, H. C.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

Benson, G.

Bramall, E. A.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Hubbard, T.

Randall, H. E.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Ranger, J.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Rankin, J.

Brown, George (Belper)

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Reeves, J.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

Jeger, Dr S. W. (St. Pancras, S E.)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Burden, T. W.

Jenkins, R. H.

Robens, A.

Burke, W. A.

Johnston, Douglas

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Robinson, K. (St. Pancras)

Cobb, F. A.

Jones, Jack (Bolton)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Collindridge, F.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Royle, C.

Collins, V. J.

Keenan, W.

Scollan, T.

Comyns, Dr. L.

Kendall, W. D.

Segal, Dr S.

Cook, T. F

Kenyon, C.

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Cooper, G.

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Shawcross, C. N. (Wi nes)

Crawley, A.

Kinley, J.

Shurmer, P.

Crossman, R. H. S

Kirby, B. V.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Cullen, Mrs.

Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D.

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Daggar, G.

Lawson, Rt. Hon J. J

Simmons, C. J.

Daines, P.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Skinnard, F. W.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Levy, B. W.

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Lindgren, G. S

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Logan, D. G.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Longden, F.

Sorensen, R. W.

Delargy, H. J.

Lyne, A. W.

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Diamond, J.

McAdam, W.

Sparks, J. A.

Dobbie, W

McAllister, G.

Steele, T.

Driberg, T E. N.

McGovern, J.

Stewart, Michael (Futham, E.)

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Mack, J. D.

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

Dumpleton, C. W.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Stross, Dr. B.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

McLeavy, F.

Stubbs, A. E.

Edelman, M.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith

Evans, Albert (Islington, W)

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Symonds, A. L.

Evans, E (Lowestoft)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Ewart, R

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Fairhurst, F.

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Farthing, W. J.

Medland, H. M.

Thurtle, Ernest

Fernyhough, E.

Messer, F.

Timmons, J.

Field, Capt. W. J.

Middleton, Mrs. L

Tolley, L.

Fletcher, E G. M. (Islington, E.)

Mikardo, Ian

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Follick, M

Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Foot, M M.

Mitchison, G. R.

Viant, S. P.

Forman, J C.

Monslow, W.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Freeman, J. (Watford)

Moody, A. S.

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Warbey, W. N.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Morley, R.

Watson, W. M.

Gibbins, J.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Webb, M. {Bradford, C)

Gilzean, A.

Mort, D. L.

Weitzman, D.

Glanville, J E. (Consett

Murray, J. D.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Grey, C. F.

Nally, W

West, D G.

Grierson, E.

Naylor, T E.

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. T. (Edinb'gh, E.)

Griffiths, D. (Rather Valley)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

Nicholls, H R (Stratford)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.

Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Wigg, George

Guest, Dr L. Haden

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

Gurter, R. J

Oldfield, W. H.

Wilkins, W. A

Guy, W. H

Oliver, G. H.

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Orbach, M.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Paget, R. T.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Dan Valley)

Hardy, E. A

Palmer, A. M. F.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Parkin, B. T.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Willis, E.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Herbison, Miss M.

Pearson, A.

Woods, G. S.

Hobson, C. R.

Peart. T. F.

Yates, V F.

Holman, P.

Popplewell, E

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Zilliacus, K.

Horabin, T L.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Houghton. A. L N D

Price, M. Philips

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Hoy, J.

Proctor, W. T.

Mr. Snow and Mr. Bowden.

It being after ten o'Clock and objection being taken to further Proceeding THE CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again
Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

GAS ACT, 1948 (VESTING DATE)
10.11 p.m.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter (Kingston-upon-Thames): I beg to move,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order, dated 7th March, 1949, entitled the Gas (Vesting Date) Order, 1949 (S.I., 1949, No. 392), a copy of which was laid before this House on 8th March, be annulled."
The Statutory Instrument which this Motion seeks to annul is the order made by the Minister of Fuel and Power in order to fix the vesting date for the nationalisation of the gas industry. Under the Gas Act, which, as the House recollects was passed last year, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Fuel and Power was given a certain discretion as to the fixing of the date for nationalisation to come into effect, and by this order, he has fixed 1st May, 1949, as the vesting date—[Interruption.] I am not surprised that hon. Members opposite do not appear to regard the prospect of the gas nationalisation Act coming into effect with any apparent degree of enthusiasm. By this order, and the bringing into effect of gas nationalisation, there would be completed what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War so felicitously described as "a trilogy of power nationalisation"—a trilogy, as the House will recollect, being a tragedy in three acts.
As I understand it the only issue before the House at this moment is whether or not 1st May is the correct and appropriate date for nationalisation to take effect. I do not know what factor has dictated that date. I know that 1st May is a date which has a certain sentimental appeal for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, it being the day on which they are apt to indulge in a certain amount of pedestrianism in somewhat mixed company, and a day on which this year they will not be permitted to do so within the London area, under the recent order by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. I do not know whether that has anything to In with the selection of this date by way of compensation.
The point I desire to put to the House is that the date selected is too early for a smooth and efficient take-over of the
1994
industry. I am certain that any hon. Member, whether he supported or opposed the nationalisation of this industry, will wish that the change-over to nationalisation shall take place with the minimum of dislocation to the community and damage to the industry itself. The process of taking over 1,046 separate municipal or gas undertakings and vesting them for all purposes in 12 area boards is a process of very great difficulty and complexity. It calls for what hon. Members opposite are so apt to call for in other circumstances—planning. It is extremely doubtful whether time has been given for sufficient planning to take place to ensure the smooth and efficient take-over of this industry.
It is material to appreciate that a comparatively small proportion of the senior appointments in the area boards have yet been made, although the date fixed for them to take over the responsibility of ownership and control of this industry is now only some four weeks ahead. The picture differs from one area to another. For example, in the East Midlands Area—and I do not suppose the Parliamentary Secretary will challenge this—there is really only a skeleton of the area board staff. In the North Western Area there are still many vacancies to be tilled, the North Eastern Area is still far from complete, and the Northern Area is only half complete, and both in Wales and, I regret to say, in Scotland, there are still many vacancies to be filled.
Is it conceivable that bodies not ye, fully appointed and staffed will be in a position effectively to take over this great and diversified industry only four weeks from now? It is material to observe from the experience of the electricity industry, which went through the same process approximately a year ago, how complex and difficult the process is and how necessary it is for there to be ample time for the preliminary work to be done. I would put as the best possible witness before the House no less a person than the Deputy-Chairman of the British Electricity Authority, Sir Henry Self. No doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will recollect the paper which Sir Henry read before the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants in May of last year just after he had himself undergone the experience of taking over a

1995
somewhat similar industry. He then said:
"For the central authority themselves the time between their first meeting on 11th September, 1947, and vesting day was very fully employed in preparing the ground for the transfer of the industry; there were fundamental questions of finance and banking, superannuation, labour conciliation, and a multitude of legal and administrative problems relating to the physical take-over to be considered.…"
Those words are particularly material when one recollects that approximately the same interval has been fixed between the Gas Act becoming law and the vesting day as was fixed between the Electricity Act becoming law and vesting day for that industry. There is a difference of about one month. The experience of Sir Henry Self, as having responsibility only second to Lord Citrine for precisely the process through which the gas industry has to go, is surely one which the Government should treat with respect. I should like to quote one further passage from the same paper:
"Throughout the deliberations of the Organising Committee and the early meetings of the Central Authority and Area Boards, the shortness of time before vesting day was the greatest single controlling factor in shaping their programmes… The shortness of time in which to complete this task inevitably resulted in many temporary arrangements to tide over until proper consideration could be given to the multitude of important questions arising: it could not be expected that a complete reorganisation could be achieved without some transitional period and a certain amount of teething trouble. Nor could there, of course, be any attempt to seek quick results, for it is far better to build slowly and build well than to rush into premature treatment of imperfectly considered problems."
I ask the House and the Parliamentary Secretary to pay serious attention to these observations of an experienced administrator appointed by them to the second position in a somewhat similar industry, because they give to the suggestion of further time being given to the preparations for the take-over of this industry a very high degree of authority indeed.
The other point which I think one is entitled to raise is that the actual date selected, quite apart from the question of time allowed, is in many ways an inconvenient one. A great many of the enterprises to be taken over are municipal, and the ordinary accounts of municipalities end on 31st March. Consequently, the gas meters of the municipal
1996
systems are generally checked sometime about then, in order to enable the accounts to be completed. A similar check will be necessary for the handing over on nationalisation, and, if that handing over is to take place only a month later, it looks as if a great deal of unnecessary work will be caused, owing to a second reading of the gas meters within a period of one month from the first.
When hon. Members recollect that there are in all, in both the municipal and the private systems, no fewer than 10 million gas meters in the country, it will be appreciated that there is a heavy administrative task involved, and it therefore does seem that it would have been wiser, as it proved impossible, quite rightly I think, for vesting date to be brought forward to the 1st April, which is in some ways a much more appropriate date, to allow some further months to go by so that the end of the period when the gas meters would have been read could have been approached. It is surely unreasonable to have a large number of meters read twice within a month unless there is really some sound administrative justification for it. No doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us whether there is, but, on the face of it, it does appear to be wholly unreasonable, and that applies directly to the municipal undertakings, which are a very substantial proportion of the whole.
Finally, one is left wondering what is the hurry. The period selected before vesting date is short. It will involve those concerned working under great pressure. It is now only four weeks from today, and many of the relevant officials have not yet been appointed. Many of the consumers' councils have not been appointed either, and, therefore, why the hurry which is causing the right hon. Gentleman to lay his hands so speedily upon this industry? It has never been suggested that this industry is inefficient, and in the long Debates on the Gas Bill it was never sugested that it was so incompetently conducted by its present owners as to need at once the beneficial influence of the right hon. Gentleman. That was never suggested, and one is left wondering why this hurry. One knows that so many decisions of the Government recently have not been unconnected with political considerations. One is led

1997
therefore to speculate whether the unseemly haste which the Minister of Fuel and Power is showing in his attempt to bring nationalisation so speedily upon this industry is not dictated by some question of political tactics and some possibility that the Government may desire, in view of the serious position of the country, to go early to the electorate, and having a very proper doubt as to what the verdict of the electorate may be, to make certain that the gas industry has been nationalised before the electorate have the opportunity of saying that they would prefer it not to be.
10.25 p.m.
Sir John Mellor: I beg to second the Motion.
The Minister announced on 27th January that the vesting date would be on 1st May and I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary why it was that, having made that announcement on 27th January, the order to implement it was not made until 7th March. Was it that the Minister thought he might, after all, wish to go back on his announcement? It is now, in case the Minister may regret having made the order on 7th March, that we have given him this opportunity to reconsider it, because there is evidence that there was a frantic scramble going on in the Ministry during January in order to get the area boards sufficiently constituted to enable 1st May to be prescribed as the vesting date. Up to 12th January only six out of 12 area boards were sufficiently constituted for that purpose. It is provided by subsection (2) of Section 17 of the Act that
"The vesting date shall not be less than three months after the establishment of the … Area Boards."
It is provided by subsection (2) of Section 5 that during any period before the vesting date area boards can be constituted by the appointment of a chairman and three other members.
If we look at the announcement which was made on 10th February of the dates of the various appointments we shall see that the Ministry ran it very fine. I read in an article entitled "By a Short Head" in the publication called "The Gas World" of 19th February—on page 290—as follows:
1998
"The hard-run race to get all the Gas Boards legally constituted on time was won, but only by a short head. On the morning of the 31st January—the very last possible day if the vesting date was not to be postponed—the Northern Gas Board was still without a deputy chairman. But the postman arrived in time with an acceptance of the position from Mr. J. R. Bradshaw, and the Ministry breathed again. The list could now be regarded as complete What would have happened if the letter from Mr. Bradshaw had been a refusal can only be guessed."
While it is perfectly correct, as is apparent from the Minister's statement on 10th February, that Mr. Bradshaw's appointment was made only on 31st January, I should in fairness make one qualification to the statement which I have just read, because in the case of the Northern Board the three part-time members, in addition to the Chairman, had been appointed by the 13th January. The Southern Board was, however, not sufficiently constituted for the purpose of fixing the vesting date until 28th January but, notwithstanding that, the Minister had the day before announced that the vesting date would be 1st May. It seems to me that he was a little premature and that he was taking a considerable chance, because if there had been a refusal he might have been right out of order. In the case of the East Midlands Board it was not constituted for this purpose until 27th January.
I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what was the need for all this scramble in order to get the vesting date fixed for 1st May? My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has suggested—and I believe he was right—that there was a political motive, but I suggest that there might also possibly have been a concurrent financial motive. It looks as though the Treasury were anxious to get this gas stock which has to be issued in compensation issued while gilt-edged prices can still be maintained at something around the present level. If the vesting date should coincide with a slump in gilt-edged prices, then a very much higher rate of interest would have to be paid on compensation stock to the former proprietors. Under the provisions of the Act the Treasury, in fixing the terms to be attached to the gas compensation stock, have to have regard to the value of Government securities at or about the vesting date. There well may be in the minds of the Government an anxiety

1999
that the onset of a considerable amount of unemployment will cause the National Insurance Funds to become sellers of gilt-edged stocks, whereas recently they have been the mainstay of the gilt-edged market. There may be something in that reason, as a secondary reason to that put forward by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames. I hope very much that hon. Members have closely examined the Report of the National Coal Board for 1947. I do not propose to read what it says but it is perfectly evident that very great difficulties were experienced as a result of the vesting date being fixed too early. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he will give an assurance that the regulations dealing with compensation for displaced persons from the industry will be made before vesting date? Will he also give an assurance that all consultative councils to deal with the interests of consumers will also be established before vesting date? I feel that we should have an assurance from the Minister that he is satisfied that the transition period can be carried through efficiently and smoothly if the vesting date is to remain at 1st May. If he has any doubt, it is quite easy for him to concur in our Prayer tonight, and allow the order to be annulled, and make a fresh order fixing another vesting date at any time he thinks fit.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. Palmer: I will not detain the House for very long, but I want to make one or two short points. I was startled to listen to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) because generally he makes some attempt to find some reasons for bringing forward a Prayer, but he completely failed to do so this evening. He ended with some fanciful references to political motives in the minds of the Government because they feared what might be the outcome of the General Election. The hon. Gentleman does not seriously suppose that the Conservative Party, in the unlikely event of the return of a Conservative Government, would denationalise the gas industry? He does not really expect us to take that seriously. Surely the Industrial Charter is a slight hint of what a Conservative policy might be—just a slight hint?
2000
I also noticed that the hon. Gentleman did not bring any evidence from the gas industry itself that gas experts—the leaders, technicians, engineers and administrators in the industry—are against this vesting date. He has not brought forward a single word, not a tittle of evidence. My memory may be at fault in this matter, but I recollect that when we discussed the Electricity Act and the Gas Act in Committee upstairs, it was often argued from the Front Bench opposite that if nationalisation had to come it would be well for it to come quickly because it was important not to have a long period of uncertainty. I am speaking from memory, but I believe that argument was used by the hon. Gentleman's own leaders in favour of early vesting dates. The hon. Gentleman made a somewhat long-winded comparison with the electricity supply industry, and quoted from an address by Sir Henry Self. I have read that address. I make it my business to read many statements made these days in connection with the electricity supply industry and the gas industry. I do not think it will be found that Sir Henry Self was arguing in particular against the relatively early date of vesting the electricity supply industry. He was suggesting that there had been inevitable difficulties and teething troubles, and that these difficulties and teething troubles were bound to continue for quite a considerable period.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I quoted fairly from the paper, and I do not think it is possible to dispute that Sir Henry refers several times to the disadvantages of what he calls the shortness of time.
Mr. Palmer: I do not think he was arguing against the actual date of the vesting, because it was the view in the industry that if the change had to come it ought to come quickly. That was the general view. Might I commend to the hon. Gentleman the leading article in the "Electrical Review" of this week. I wish I had it with me. The "Electrical Review" is a paper which is in no sense a political paper, and during the time that this House was discussing the nationalisation of the electricity supply industry the paper if anything was hostile to nationalisation. It is a financial and commercial paper. But it has paid tribute in a leading article this week, on the

2001
first anniversary, to the extreme smoothness with which the change over to national ownership has been carried out. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he should for a few moments, if he can, forget his politics in this matter at least and come down to facts.
10.37 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): The matter we are discussing is whether the 1st of May is the right date for the vesting of the gas industry, and I understood that the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) was rather worried in case this date was so early that there would not be a smooth take-over, and that as a consequence we should not get the benefits of public ownership from the very beginning. He then wanted to know whether there was a political motive for this choice. I would have thought that if the 1st May was rather early, and the take-over was consequently chaotic, the political advantage would be with the hon. Gentleman and his friends. So I do not think that we can be accused of choosing 1st May as politically advantageous to us.
In point of fact, I think it is desirable that when a Bill has been passed which completely reorganises an industry, in the interests of those employed in the industry, the technicians, managers and others, there should not be an undue length of time between the passing of the Act and the vesting day. We thought that the 1st May, knowing all that would be required to be done, was a reasonable date for the vesting. There is no need for a scramble, and I am rather surprised that the hon. Member considers that there would be a scramble to fill posts on the area boards. There has not been a scramble as far as I know, unless it has been among men in the gas industry who have been scrambling to get appointments which they have not received. But I have seen no scramble in my right hon. Friend's Department. He has made these appointments in accordance with the Act in the time laid down by the Act. Those appointments, generally speaking, have met with the approval of the industry. The trade papers have not been markedly hostile to the appointments. I think it is reasonable to make appointments early so that managements
2002
in the industry, particularly, can be settled. So, there is no real "political motive." There is certainly no financial reason, as the hon. Member has suggested, in selecting 1st May as the vesting date. The 1st of May was considered to allow a reasonable period; it gave sufficient time for us to fulfil the obligations placed on us with regard to vesting day, and I will have something to say about those obligations. I have been asked if the consultative councils will be properly constituted prior to vesting date. The answer is "No," but the hon. Baronet will probably recollect—the hon. Member for Kingston-on-Thames certainly will, because he spent a lot of time on consideration of the Gas Bill—that it was decided, and laid down in the Bill, that the councils should be established within six months of the vesting date. Well, we are getting ahead with the preparatory work, and in all probability the chairmen of the consultative councils will be appointed within the next few weeks.
Sir J. Mellor: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that on 27th January last, the Minister was asked by his hon. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies):
"Surely, my right hon. Friend, on the Second Reading of the Gas Bill, gave an undertaking that these consumers' councils would be set up as speedily as possible and, if possible, be in operation by the time the vesting date was fixed?"
The Minister replied:
"Yes, Sir, and I have already asked for nominations from the various bodies concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th January, 1949; Vol. 460, c. 1099.]
Mr. Robens: I do not think that I have made any statement at variance with that. We have to negotiate with the Association of Municipal Corporations, and other bodies of a public character in order to get nominations sent to us, and it takes time to get all the names that are suitable.
Sir William Darling: The right hon. Gentleman has got all the names from the local authorities.
Mr. Robens: We are getting names from all interested bodies.
Sir W. Darling: But all the names have been obtained from the local authorities.
Mr. Robens: If the hon. Gentleman wants to make a speech I will give way.
Sir W. Darling: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? I understood that the difficulty was that the names had not come in from the Association of Municipal Corporations, and the like. What I suggest to him is that he has had the names for some considerable time. I do not understand what is the difficulty.
Mr. Robens: Perhaps I was misunderstood; there is no difficulty about getting the names. There is a time lag. Councils have to make nominations, and they have to be sieved, and there is necessarily a time lag. But we have got a lot of the names, and we are in the process of looking through those names, and making certain selections. My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to announce the names of the chairmen of the consultative councils within the next few weeks, and we hope to establish the consultative councils within about three months of vesting date; so, we shall halve the time which is allowed under the Act for doing that particular job. I must emphasise to hon. Members that it is to our interests, as a Government, when a Bill has been accepted by this House, and has become law, to get such things as consultative councils into operation as speedily as possible. We shall do that with all speed, and I hope that we shall have the consultative councils established within about three months. That is our aim, and I hope we shall be able to do that. The fears of hon. Members opposite—and I thank them for their expressed concern about the way in which we are running the Department—are quite groundless.
This date of 1st May, it may interest hon. Members to know, was not fixed without consultation with all the area boards' chairmen. It was important to do that and we did it. There is a difference between this industry and the electricity industry to which the hon. Member referred. There is a good deal more decentralisation and the area boards are autonomous. They have their administrative arrangements well completed and therefore when the area boards' chairmen themselves are agreeable to the 1st of May I think it can be taken that the 1st of May—
Colonel Clarke: Is not the gas industry a much more com-
2004
plicated industry than the electricity industry? With electricity it is largely a matter of distribution only but with gas one has the manufacture of all the byproducts and other side lines which one does not have in electricity, and so they should have more time.
Mr. Robens: I would not accept that view. I am only a layman but I would not accept that the gas industry is the more complicated industry. I think it makes it much easier when production and distribution are under the same body of people. The gas industry is well served by an efficient management and technicians and I do not think there will be any problems about reading meters twice. It would not arise at all. They would not have to be read again. It would not be necessary. Readings are continuous and cash will flow into the area boards and adjustments can be made where necessary. There is not any problem of administration in this.
I see hon. Gentlemen opposite shaking their heads, but it all vests on the vesting day. Cash will vest on that day and there is no point in reading meters twice. If there should be any administrative problems they can easily be handled by the area boards. The House need not worry that because 1st May is the selected date it will in any way upset the industry and I hope from that date that the industry will go on giving the good service it has in the past and that it will be fruitful and productive.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: Before the Parliamentary Secretary sits down will he tell the House that in view of the three months' delay he agrees to a freeze in prices and charges for gas until the consumers' councils, of which so much is made by the Government, are set up?
Mr. Robens: No, not at all. There is not a three months' delay. There is no delay at all. The Act lays it down that the consultative councils must be established within six months. We hope to establish them within three months, and far from there being a delay there is really a gain.
10.48 p.m.
Mr. Raikes: I do not think I have ever heard the House treated with more contempt than it has

2005
been treated tonight by the Parliamentary Secretary's reply to my hon. Friends who moved and seconded this Prayer. First, with regard to the date of 1st May. The Parliamentary Secretary has made no attempt to explain why he selected a date a month after the end of the financial year. He knows quite well that between 1st April and 1st May various financial accounts and everything else have to be made out. He has told us that meters will not have to be re-read. If the meters have not to be examined once again who is going to decide what in fact in each meter belongs to the companies and what belongs to the boards? The meters have to be read by someone between 1st April and 1st May. The money which is put into the meters belongs to the companies and does not belong to the area boards. If they are not read there is only one way out of it and that is that when the area boards take over they guess the amount. If they do not make a guess, the meters must be read. Are we to understand that a guess is to be made on the basis of previous months—the winter months—in order to ensure by that sort of guess that people who pay into meters will have to pay considerably more than they are likely to pay in the summer? I do not often speak with warmth, but the way that meter-reading is being cast aside by the Parliamentary Secretary—as if meters could read themselves—is an utter condemnation of the arguments he put forward.
Mr. Palmer: To which meters is the hon. Member referring?
Mr. Raikes: I am referring to gas meters. I will come to electricity in a moment.
Mr. Palmer: The hon. Member must appreciate that in a public-service industry there are consumers' meters and bulk supply meters. To which is the hon. Member referring?
Mr. Raikes: Whichever they may be, some of them are municipalities' and some are not, but the fact remains that unless these meters are read during the first month in the new financial year, it is perfectly impossible to make a clear calculation of the money which is being put into them in the last month of private enterprise—particularly in regard to the company meters.
2006
We have electricity vested in eight and a half months from the passing of the Electricity Act. That period up to the vesting date has been admitted and it has been made manifest in the quotation read by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) that they needed another eight and a half months. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, has every new municipal undertaking been taken over yet? Over a year has passed since vesting date. If they have not all been taken over, what is the number running on their own and being paid for by B.E.A.'? There is no answer to that.
Electricity is a centralised industry and it is a much easier industry to take over than gas. Nine months for gas is an absolutely fantastic figure so far as the vesting date is concerned. It was only in February this year that the Minister announced the minimum number of members of area boards. Now it is just the beginning of April and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary—and I think we should have a further reply from him—are the staffs still skeleton staffs, or is he satisfied that the minimum numbers on the boards will form workable staffs by 1st May? He is pretty poorly staffed. These are the sort of things we are wanting to know. We find electricity easier to take over than gas. I am not making a party point of it at all.
Mr. Kirkwood: That is all very well.
Mr. Raikes: The right hon. Gentleman may say it is all very well. It is all very bad. That is what we are complaining about at the present time.
Sir Wavell Wakefield: Shocking Socialist inefficiency.
Mr. Raikes: We want a smooth transitional period. The Government want to take the industry over in such a fashion that it can work as effectively as it is possible to make the nationalised boards work. My point is that electricity in eight and a half months had great difficulty, which has been pointed out in the observations by Sir Henry Self himself.
It has been difficult to do it in eight and a half months. We have not been told in regard to gas whether there is a

2007
full staff yet, although it is almost the 1st of May. We have not yet had any serious answer in regard to the question of gas meters. We know there is a colossal job here in an industry where there are over a thousand undertakings which have to be turned over to a small number of area boards. Is the machinery in complete operation? And finally, as I said, there are our municipal undertakings being taken over completely on this date. We have had no answer on that point. Gas being far more difficult than electricity to deal with on 1st May, is it to our advantage for the industry to be taken over as soon as this? We have had no answer whatever from the Parliamentary Secretary to any of the points made by my hon. Friends tonight.
10.57 p.m.
Mr. John Foster: My hon. Friend the Member for Wavertree (Mr. Raikes) protested against the contempt the Parliamentary Secretary has shown to the House. I want to protest against the words he used about the members of the gas industry. He said the members of the gas industry were "scrambling for jobs"—
Mr. Robens Mr. Robens rose—
Mr. Foster: May I finish the sentence, please? I hope that that remark will have wide publicity so that the gas industry may know what the Parliamentary Secretary thinks of his new employees.
Mr. Robens: From the point of view of correctness, perhaps the hon. Member will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I cannot when hon. Members on the Front Bench opposite mutter instead of standing up and speaking. I have not had some of the advantages of hon. Members, but at least I always learned to be quiet when somebody else was speaking and others wanted to hear. All I was saying is that when the hon. Gentleman reads—[Interruption]. It is no use the hon. Gentleman lying there on his back saying, "Yes, you did." I am inviting the hon. Gentleman to read the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow.
Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Will the Parliamentary Secretary give an undertaking that the OFFICIAL REPORT will not be altered between now and tomorrow?
Sir W. Darling: I wrote down the exact words, "scrambling to get jobs."
Mr. Robens: I am sorry the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests that I should go and alter what I have said. I am not in the habit of doing that. If he is now giving me some information which I have not known while I have been in this House, that I can go and alter the text of what I have said, it may be because of his own experience. The hon. Gentleman certainly misinterpreted what I have said and I am content to leave it to the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow.
Mr. R. S. Hudson: It will be within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, and the recollection of hon. Members in the House that the words which the Parliamentary Secretary used were that the only scramble he knew about was a scramble by members of the gas industry to get jobs. He may not have remembered what he said, but he had better withdraw or if it is correct, to stick to what he has said.
11.0 p.m.
Mr. Robens: I am not lacking in courage, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman.
And it is not any use the hon. Gentleman saying that I said that. I am prepared to repeat what I said. [Interruption.] I am offering hon. Gentlemen opposite an opportunity of looking at HANSARD.
Mr. Foster: I gave way to the hon. Gentleman to enable him to make an interjection and not to make a speech. Because he is a Minister he has no right to abuse the privilege I gave him.
I was saying when I allowed the hon. Gentleman to interrupt me, and I will have to beware if he wants to interrupt me again, that it is within my recollection that he said in a negative form that he did not know about any scrambling for jobs unless it was among members of the gas industry who would be scrambling for jobs.
Mr. Robens Mr. Robens indicated assent.
Mr. Foster: It is quite clear then that that is an insult to the gas industry, particularly if we couple it with the remarks of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Palmer) who asked why the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) had not brought the evidence here. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames cannot bring the evidence because the Government would victimise anyone who opposes nationalisation. What happened to Sir Robert Rennie under the Electricity Act? If they are going to be victimised they will find themselves—and I use the word advisedly—swindled as to their compensation just like the people on the N.C.B. were swindled.
Mr. Speaker: This is not a question of the nationalised Coal Board but of the vesting date for the gas industry.
Mr. Foster: Evidence cannot be brought from the industry, and we in this House have to be the voice of the industry. The Parliamentary Secretary will see in HANSARD that he did say that they were scrambling for jobs, and I think that is an insult to the industry. It is not right that he should say this about people who have worked very loyally, and I am sure will cooperate loyally with the Government in a very unsatisfactory and repugnant changeover. He ought to amend his words, because he will have to get on with the-industry.
Question put,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order, dated 7th March 1949, entitled the Gas (Vesting Date) Order, 1949 (S.I. 1949, No. 392), a copy of which was laid before this House on 8th March, be annulled."
The House divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 213.

Division No.97.]

AYES

[11.3 p.m.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Haughton, S. G.

Odey, G. W.

Baldwin, A. E.

Head, Brig. A. H.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Barlow, Sir J.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. c.

Prescott, Stanley

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

Bossom, A. C.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Raikes, H. V

Bower, N.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Roberts, H (Handsworth)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

Hollis, M. C.

Ropner, Col. L.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

Howard, Hon A.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Scott, Lord W.

Channon, H.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

Shephard, S. (Newark)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Hurd, A.

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Clifton-Brawn, Lt.-Col. G

Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (, W.)

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

Smithers, Sir W.

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Snadden, W. M

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Jennings, R.

Spearman, A. C. M

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Keeling, E. H.

Spence, H. R.

Crowder, Capt. John E.

Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Studholme, H. G.

De la Bère, R.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (p'dd't'n,S.)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Low, A. R. W

Teeling, William

Donner, P. W.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Drayson, G B.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Touche, G C.

Drewe, C.

McCallum, Maj. D

Turton, R. H.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon M. S

Vane, W. M. F.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

McFarlane, C S.

Wakefield, Sir W. W

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

Mackeson, Brig. H. R

Walker-Smith, D

Erroll, F. J.

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale.)

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Gage, C.

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

Maude, J. C.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

Molson, A. H. E.

York, C.

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Morrison, Rt. Hon W. S. (Cirencester)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

Mullan, Lt C. H.

Gridley, Sir A.

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Harden, J. R. E

Nicholson, G.

Sir John Mellor and

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Nield, B. (Chester)

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Harvey, Air-Comdre, A. V.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

NOES

Acland, Sir Richard

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Gunter, R. J.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Guy. W. H.

Price, M. Philips

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Proctor, W. T.

Attewell, H C

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Randall, H. E.

Attlee, Rt. Hon C R.

Hardy, E. A.

Ranger, J.

Austin, H. Lewis

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Rankin, J.

Awbery, S. S.

Henderson, Rt Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Reeves, J.

Bacon, Miss A.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Baird, J.

Herbison, Miss M.

Robens, A.

Balfour, A

Hobson, C. R.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Barton, C.

Holman, P.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Bechervaise, A. E.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bing, G. H. C.

Horabin, T. L.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Blenkinsop, A.

Houghton, A. L N. D

Robinson, K. (St. Pancras)

Blyton, W. R.

Hoy, J.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Boardman, H.

Hubbard, T.

Royle, C.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Scollan, T.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Segal, Dr. S.

Bramall E. A.

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Broughton, Dr. A. D.D.

Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S E.)

Shurmer, P.

Brown, George (Belper)

Jenkins, R. H.

Silverman, J (Erdington)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Johnston, Douglas

Silverman, S. S (Nelson)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Jones, D. T (Hartlepool)

Simmons, C. J.

Burden, T. W.

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Burke, W. A.

Jones, Jack (Bolton)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.)

Keenan, W.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Byers, Frank

Kenyon, C.

Snow, J. W.

Cobb, F A.

Kinley, J.

Sorensen, R. W.

Coldrick, W.

Kirkwood, Rt. Hon D

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Collindridge, F.

Lee, F (Hulme)

Sparks, J. A.

Collins, V J.

Levy, B. W

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

Comyns, Dr. L.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Stross, Dr. B.

Cook, T. F

Lindgren, G. S.

Stubbs, A. E.

Grossman, R. H. S.

Logan, D. G.

Symonds, A. L.

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Longden, F.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Daggar, G.

Lyne, A. W.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Daines, P

McAllister, G.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Dalton, Rt. Hon H.

McGovern, J.

Timmons, J.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Mack, J. D.

Tolley, L.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Mackay, F. W, G. (Hull, N.W.)

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Delargy, H. J.

McLeavy, F.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Diamond, J.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Vernon, Maj. W. F

Dobbie W.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Wadsworth, G.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwicn)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Dumpleton, C W.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Warbey, W. N.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Watson, W. M.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W)

Medland, H. M.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Middleton, Mrs. L

West, D. G.

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Mikardo, Ian

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

Ewart, R.

Millington, Wing-Comdr E. R

While, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Fairhurst, F.

Mitchison, G. R

Whiteley, Rt. Hon W

Farthing, W J

Monslow, W.

Wigg, George

Fernyhough, E

Moody, A. S.

Wilcock, Group-Copt C. A B

Field, Copt W. J.

Morley, R.

Wilkins, W. A.

Fletcher, E G. M. (Islington, E.)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Follick, M.

Mort, D. L.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Foot, M. M

Moyle, A.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Forman, J. C.

Nally, W.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Freeman, J (Watford)

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Willis, E.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

Oliver, G. H.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Gibbins, J.

Orbach, M.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

Gilzean, A.

Paget, R. T.

Woods, G. S.

Glanville, J. E. (Consott)

Paling, W T. (Dewsbury)

Yates, V. F.

Grey, C. F

Palmer, A. M. F.

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Grierson, E.

Pargiter, G. A.

Zilliacus, K.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Parkin, B. T.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

Pearson, A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

Pearl, T. F.

Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Bowden.

ELECTRICITY CHARGES,GLASGOW
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Pearson.]
11.13 p.m.
Mr. Rankin: I desire to draw the attention of the Minister to the exceptional difficulties imposed on the citizens of Glasgow by the recent increase in electricity charges. In my own division accounts for the recent winter period are twice, and in some cases three times, the charge which was imposed for the corresponding period last year. As a result of that very heavy increase many of my constituents are compelled to use candles as a source of illumination in their homes. We are glad to know that my right hon. Friend on the one hand, has brightened the streets and shops of our country by turning on the lights again, but we are dismayed at the fact that, on the other hand, he has plunged many of our homes into darkness by turning off the lights through this heavy increase in charges. My hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power will be well aware of the intensity of feeling which has been created by this imposition, especially in my own city of Glasgow. I think he will recognise that the dissatisfaction which has been expressed from many quarters is well founded.
There are two aspects of this question. First, there is the increase in the normal rate and secondly, the sur-charge. So far as the normal rate is concerned, the increase on No.1 secondary rate from.6d. to.75d. has not provoked a great deal of protest, but the increase on the No. 2 secondary rate from.4d. to.75d. has created much and well-merited protest, because that charge affects the great bulk of consumption. Generally, we recognise the need for some increase in electricity charges for the country as a whole and there is no protest from that point of view, but there is certainly a well grounded protest with regard to the method by which this increase has been brought about.
From the City of Glasgow the Minister has extracted a total sum of £264,000 by the increases in No.1 and No. 2 secondary rates, when the estimated deficiency for the current year is £131,945. He has
2014
taken from the citizens more than double the amount of the estimated deficit. We feel there was another way to achieve his purpose. He did not require to impose such a steep increase at once. He might have gained his end by a gradual process. If, to begin with, he had increased the No. 2 secondary rate from.4d. to.5d., he would have obtained a sum of £55,850 and that sum, added to the balance of £76,065 which Glasgow handed over when the electricity undertaking was vested in the South-Western Area Board, would have yielded a sum which would have met the estimated deficit for the present year. He would have achieved his object without in any way hurting, as he is hurting, the citizens by this heavy impost. We accept the idea that there has to be some levelling of electricity charges in order to provide the rural areas with cheaper electricity, but in seeking to do that my right hon. Friend the Minister has placed too heavy an imposition on our city. I know he will say that he is taking the long view. I do feel that there are times when we can take too long a view. In fact, the length of the right hon. Gentleman's view on this particular occasion reminds me of the story of the old man who was dying. His wife had been sitting at his bedside in a room illuminated by a little candle. She had been there for a large part of the evening and was beginning to grow weary. She said, "Well, John, I think I will go away to bed. If you feel like passing out before the morning would ye mind to blow out the candle?" I do feel that my right hon. Friend's long view is comparable to that old lady's—it is just too long a view in the circumstances.
My hon. Friend may say that he has no responsibility here. Legally, of course, that is true. But the British Electricity Authority, I am perfectly certain, has been forced to yield to my right hon. Friend in regard to the imposition of the general charge, and particularly with regard to the surcharge, to which I want now to turn. The purpose of the surcharge was to control domestic consumption and prevent the possibility of industrial and commercial breakdown. Such a purpose, I agree, is entirely laudable. But the method of achieving it is not. It is argued that by means of the rebate which is offered to the consumer in the summer he should not have to pay more

2015
than if the tariff remained the same throughout the year. That sounds all right in theory, but to get it, the consumer will require during the summer period to use three and a half times the amount of electricity which he used during the winter. That is something which he is not likely to achieve for the simple reason that the summer period includes the holidays and the long clear evenings when very little electricity will be consumed.
I would suggest that in any event the purpose which my right hon. Friend seeks to secure through the surcharge will be met by the very heavy increase in the No. 2 secondary rate. Finally, I would like to refer to the psychological effect of these increases. So far as many of my constituents are concerned, these heavy charges will make them afraid to use electricity. I submit that that is a false economy, because electricity is the best way to burn coal. As a result of that fear, the revenue of the British Electricity Authority will be reduced, and this will create the very state of affairs which the increase in the normal rate was intended to prevent, namely, an unbalance between income and expenditure which may lead in the long run to a further increase in the normal rate. Therefore I present to my hon. Friend two demands. The first is that he will credit to the next issue of accounts the amount of the surcharge collected in the last issue. That is quite easily worked from the administrative point of view, and I am assured that it would cause no difficulty. Secondly, he should give us tonight, an assurance that the differential rate will not be imposed next winter on the simple ground that the heavy increase of 87½ per cent. on the No. 2 secondary rate will achieve the purpose for which the surcharge was imposed.
11.25 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): We have listened to the speech of my hon. Friend and have, I think, been impressed with the clarity with which he has put his case; but, I hope the House will bear with me if I go back a little into the history of this surcharge. for which my right hon. Friend is responsible. It is well-known in the House that, by reason of the war, there was, and
2016
still is, a grave shortage of generating plant. That shortage involved the special problem of the peak load; a problem which, unless drastic action was taken, would have meant that industry would have had to shut down because power would not be available for it. The regional boards for industry took up this matter and I must, as I have done from this box on previous occasions, pay tribute to management and workers for the way in which they were prepared to accept any order to stagger hours and spread the load, thus avoiding the dislocation of industry through shortage of electric current at peak load hours. But that, in itself, was not sufficient. It was not right that industry, having done all this, should find that its supply was being jeopardised by reason of domestic and commercial consumers having no obligation, except the moral obligation, of being careful with consumption of electricity at peak load hours. Therefore, last year, the additional task of spreading the load in commercial premises was undertaken.
Then, the third—the domestic—consumer, had to be attended to, because the growing load of the domestic consumer was such that the spreading of the load in industry was being jeopardised, and the industrial scheme would have come to nought. My right hon. Friend set up the special committee, known as the Clow Committee because the chairman was Sir Andrew Clow, and the members were technical men in the electricity industry. They were members of the area boards, in some cases; there were representatives from commerce, and from women's organisations, and there was a representative of the organised trade unions. It was a very representative committee, and not a lay committee, but one which had upon it men with great technical and administrative knowledge. This committee issued a report, and in it were a number of recommendations for dealing with this problem of spreading the load. These recommendations called for mechanical devices; the use of the "ripple control" and so on; matters which, even if adopted, could not possibly have been brought into operation for the winter of 1948–49.
There was then one recommendation which, however, could be brought into

2017
operation for that winter season. That was the domestic surcharge. In other words, the recommendation of a price disincentive. The object was to make the cost to the consumer of electricity deliberately more dear in the winter, and cheaper in the summer.
This was not revolutionary. It was not something new. Many undertakings have had this differential summer and winter charge. The London and Home Counties Joint Electricity Authority have had it, the Blackburn Corporation have had it, and I could recite a whole list of electrical undertakings who have always charged more for electricity in winter and less in summer. From the point of view of the economics of the electricity industry one wants obviously to even out the load throughout the year and there seems to be sense in it. But in this matter it was not the economics of the industry but the sheer necessity of making sure that no one industrial organisation should stop their machines and stop production by reason of the heavy load at peak hours by domestic consumers.
It would have caused great unemployment and loss of goods for export and it would have given a great blow to the economic recovery of this country. We had one example of that when we had a severe winter and when, through loss of fuel and consequent loss of power, some colossal amounts of goods were lost to this country and unemployment went up very rapidly. We were not prepared to run that risk and therefore we adopted the recommendation of the Clow Committee's report which could be put into effect for this winter. My hon. Friend did mention that the price of electricity had been raised to a minimum of.75 of a penny per unit. That is perfectly true. That was done not as the result of any direction by my right hon. Friend or at any request but by the area boards in putting their organisation on a business basis.
After all, in Glasgow, the city about which my hon. Friend has spoken, in 10½ months before nationalisation they had lost £76,000 on the revenue account. Their charges were not high enough to cover their costs. It is true, therefore, that when one raises the minimum charge to.75 of a penny and then one puts on a surcharge of.35 of a penny one gets a double lift and it is that double lift
2018
which, I think, caused the shock and hardship to which my hon. Friend referred. I do not want to go too deeply into that matter of why the minimum rate was raised to.75 of a penny. It has received considerable publicity in the Scottish newspapers and I am reminded of the statement made by the South-West Scotland Electricity Board in which they made it perfectly clear, in that part quoted by the "Glasgow Herald" on Saturday, 26th March, 1949, as to why it was necessary to raise the price of electricity to.75 of a penny.
I have the statement here but I do not think it really devolves on me to go into that in great detail. My hon. Friend knows all about that. Sufficient to say that what he has suggested in relation to the financial arrangements that may have been made cannot be regarded as good business in the long run. Clearly, an area board, as it is responsible to the area as a whole, must bring these undertakings up to an economic level and must, as the Act requires, maintain its services.
Mr. McGovern: In connection with the surcharge, do I understand that the surcharge was recommended? I heard a Minister in another place admit that the Board had rejected the surcharge and that the Minister had imposed it.
Mr. Robens: The Minister issued no directions in relation to the surcharge but what he did was to accept the recommendation of the Clow Committee's report and make it known to the area board chairmen that he would like that recommendation carried into effect and the area board chairmen carried out the request of the Minister.
Mr. Rankin: Could the Minister make one point clear? He has stated that the purpose of the charges was to put uneconomic units on a sound financial basis. Is he suggesting that Glasgow was on an uneconomic basis?
Mr. Robens: All I would say is to repeat what I said on the loss in the 10½ months and that was £76,000, which was equivalent to a loss in a full year of approximately £90,000, and if the undertaking had remained under the control of the Corporation and no changes had

2019
been made, the loss in the year ended 31st March, 1949, would have been £140,000.
Mr. Rankin: Is not my hon. Friend aware that one reason for the loss of £76,000 was the fact that when Glasgow, in 1944, asked for permission to raise the unit charge, that permission was refused?
Mr. Robens: I am not casting any reflection on the way in which Glasgow Corporation ran their undertaking. We know they were not permitted during the war to raise their charges. I am merely saying this is the reason why it was necessary to raise the minimum charges up to 75.
Rebates follow in the nine months and it means in fact that, whereas Glasgow has a minimum charge of 75, and they are now paying 1.1d. because of the surcharge, the price of electricity in the next nine months will be reduced to.65 of a penny; so this is a considerable reduction on the winter charge and, of course, it was intended to be a disincentive. That was just its whole purpose and a great deal of publicity was given to this and it was hoped that domestic users would regard this matter in the grave light in which we regarded it and would recognise the importance of saving on the peak load especially. It was hoped that this price disincentive would operate in that way.
It must be confessed that, while it is true that we have had a mild winter and there have been no large-scale industrial stoppages caused by the shortage of electricity for power and lighting, and while no one can say exactly as to what proportion is attributable to the surcharge involved, it has had some effect. It has been one of the factors that has helped in that way. The surcharge was put into operation at the request of my right hon. Friend because that was the only recommendation arising from the Clow Committee that it was possible to put into operation in the winter of 1948–49. I will not say it will not be put into operation next year at all. It may well be, but I hope, as a result of what has taken place this winter, that we shall not have the same problems that we have had this time and that there will be economy in the use of electricity in the winter.
2020
I must also confess that I have seen a lot of figures from hon. Members representing the Glasgow area, where the surcharge has caused so much trouble—but it is quite easy to produce figures. I do not want to be unfeeling about this, but there have been exaggerated cases. I have seen some accounts of the "enormous" increases they would generally run to and one would say that is a very terrible thing indeed, but they are not in the general run. May I quote from an interview which Mr. Pickles, the Chairman of the Board, gave to the "Glasgow Herald" on 19th February, because in some way it is something of a reply to my hon. Friend? He said:
"The effect of the tariff increase and surcharge, while admittedly heavy in a limited number of cases, had been exaggerated in some cases. Over 80 per cent, of the domestic accounts issued in Glasgow had involved an increase of less than £1 for the winter charges, both in tariff and surcharge. In fact,"—
this is really most interesting—
"the average increase over 70,000 accounts issued was 7s. 9d. in respect of tariff and 10s. 6d. in respect of surcharge—a total increase for the quarter of 18s. 3d."
Mr. McGovern: In my case it was £9.
Mr. Robens: In my own case it was £12, so I have some sympathy with these.
Commander Galbraith: In general, the account for electricity of practically every citizen of Glasgow was more than double, whatever the amount may seem to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Robens: I can only say that I am sure of what the Chairman of the Area Board, speaking with all the facts in his possession, states, and I can only repeat what I have already said in relation to what he said, that the average increase over 70,000 accounts was 7s. 9d. in respect of tariffs and 10s. 6d. in respect of the surcharge.
Commander Galbraith: How many accounts did the hon. Gentleman talk about?
Mr. Robens: I said 70,000, but I went further and said that in over 80 per cent. of the domestic accounts issued in Glasgow the increase involved was less than £1.
Commander Galbraith: The hon. Gentleman did not mention 70,000 accounts.
Mr. Robens: Yes, I did. I read this from the extract I have made from Mr. Pickles' talk which was quoted in the "Glasgow Herald." This electricity problem is a great one. Power stations cannot be built over-night and we shall have this recurring problem. Users of electricity can make a great contribution if they will look at their fuel usage over the year as a whole. What I mean is this: here we have winter when electricity is highly priced and the nine
2022
summer months when it is at a low price. What I would like people to do is to try and conserve their coal and their solid fuel during the summer, using that for their heavy base load for the winter and using electricity during the summer.
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Seventeen Minutes to Twelve o'Clock.

SCOTLAND
  Improvement Scheme, Knoydart
  Improvement Scheme, Knoydart
  Local Government Manpower Committee
  Local Government Manpower Committee
  Cement Manufacture
  Cement Manufacture
BRITISH ARMY
  Pay Office Staffs
  Pay Office Staffs
  Short Service Scheme
  Short Service Scheme
  Sennybridge Range, Breconshire
  Sennybridge Range, Breconshire
TERRITORIAL ARMY
  Travelling Expenses
  Travelling Expenses
  Anti-Aircraft Practice Camps
  Anti-Aircraft Practice Camps
  NEW TOWN, PETERLEE
  NEW TOWN, PETERLEE
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Purchase Tax (Water Softeners)
  Purchase Tax (Water Softeners)
  Post-war Credits
  Post-war Credits
  National Land Fund
  National Land Fund
  Government Organisation Committee
  Government Organisation Committee
  CIVIL SERVICE (ORGANISATION AND METHODS)
  CIVIL SERVICE (ORGANISATION AND METHODS)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Tractors (Minister's Discussions)
  Tractors (Minister's Discussions)
  Proposed Factory, Brighton
  Proposed Factory, Brighton
  Home-Grown Timber (Prices)
  Home-Grown Timber (Prices)
  SIAM (MILITARY ADVISERS)
  SIAM (MILITARY ADVISERS)
  SHOP WINDOWS (LIGHTING)
  SHOP WINDOWS (LIGHTING)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Eire Potatoes
  Eire Potatoes
  Model By-Laws
  Model By-Laws
  MALTA (IMPORTED PERIODICALS)
  MALTA (IMPORTED PERIODICALS)
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH (STAFF)
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH (STAFF)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOUNDARIES (REPORT)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOUNDARIES (REPORT)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (EX-SERVICE MEN)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (EX-SERVICE MEN)
  MESSRS. SHORT AND HARLAND (SHARES)
  MESSRS. SHORT AND HARLAND (SHARES)
  ORDNANCE SURVEY
  ORDNANCE SURVEY
EMPLOYMENT
  Silicosis, Caernarvonshire
  Silicosis, Caernarvonshire
  Disabled Ex-Service Men
  Disabled Ex-Service Men
  PICK-UP BALERS (ALLOCATION)
  PICK-UP BALERS (ALLOCATION)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRY (DEVELOPMENT AREAS) ORDER, 1949.
  2.35 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, March 16 last be approved. Under Section 7 of the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, this Order, which was foreshadowed during the debate in your Lordships' House on the Motion raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, a few weeks ago, requires the approval of your Lordships. It is proposed, first to make minor boundary alterations to the South Wales development area by adding to it a few parishes which have hitherto been just outside the existing boundaries but which form part of the same natural economic and social unit; and the Order brings within the development area the Carmarthenshire side of the industrial Amman Valley. The effect will be to extend the development area by some 30,000 acres and to increase its population by several thousands. This minor boundary adjustment has been made after consultation with all the local authorities whose area includes any land to which the Order relates. It has been welcomed by them all, so I do not think it is necessary for me to trouble your Lordships further with it.
  Secondly, the Order proposes to add the Merseyside area to the schedule of development areas. The Government have long been watching very carefully the special circumstances of the Merseyside area, and its unemployment record, and have recognised that its employment needs are likely to be best served by development area facilities. It is true that the Government have been able to do quite a lot to help the area without scheduling; but post-war unemployment in the area has risen sharply, and since 1946 has persisted at a level comparable with that of the other development areas and some two
  952
  and a half times as great as the average for Great Britain as a whole. I would point out to your Lordships that the industrial economy of Merseyside has a special character, differing from that of the other development areas, in that primarily Merseyside is a commercial rather than an industrial area.
  I do not wish to worry your Lordships with a mass of figures, but three, I think, will illustrate the consistent heavy unemployment suffered by the Merseyside area before the war. In 1932, some 109,000 were out of work. The average unemployment in the years 1932 to 1938 was approximately 97,000. As a result of the depressed conditions in the area, almost 90,000 people migrated between 1931 and 1939, and although this reduction in the population was approximately balanced by the natural increase, it shows a very sad state of affairs. During the war, through the activity of the port and the munitions factories built in the area during that period, unemployment fell to a very low level; in fact, in June, 1945, the total unemployment was down to 3,400. The war-time development at Speke, Fazakerley and Kirkby provided the nucleus of industrial development of which the local authority have been able to take considerable advantage. Both the Government's policy of steering industrialists to areas of special need and the post-war factory building programme have contributed to the area's industrial development.
  By the middle of 1948 the total numbers in employment were 433,000, and some 60,000 more men and women were employed than in 1939. To-day there are more people employed on Merseyside than at any time since records have been kept. In spite of this, the hard core of Merseyside's unemployment problem remains. Employment in the war factories converted to peace-time production has inevitably fallen below the war-time peak. The effect of new development is offset to some extent by the serious war damage which the area suffered. By June, 1946, the unemployment figures had reached 28,700, and to-day they are approximately the same. This is represented by unemployment, particularly heavy as regards men, at 7½ per cent. of the insured men workers compared with the average of 4 per cent. for the other development areas and 2½ per cent. for Great Britain as a whole. A special

  953
  feature of the position on Merseyside is that female unemployment, particularly on the north side of the river, does not present a serious problem. Merseyside is a large, compact community, offering a wide range of jobs for women, although this substantial surplus of male unemployment still remains to be catered for. The estimated employment arising from the post-war factory building programme would still leave some two-thirds of the unemployed men out of work.
  My Lords, that is the picture of Merseyside as it is to-day. It is proposed that this new Merseyside development area shall include the industrial centres of Liverpool, Bootle, Litherland and Birkenhead, Huyton-with-Roby and the parishes of Netherton, Aintree, Kirkby and Simonswood, which contain existing training estates and land scheduled for industrial development, and Wallasey and Bebington, where there are also projected industrial estates. The Merseyside development area will comprise approximately 112 square miles, and has a present population of some 1,197,000. All local authorities affected by the Order, including the Lancashire County Council, have been consulted, and all now concur that the area should be scheduled as a welcome aid to the solution of Merseyside's economic and unemployment problems. Within the scheduled area the development plans of the local planning authorities show an adequate amount of land available for industrial development, and the Board of Trade have under consideration questions of the proper siting of new industrial building and the scale of development required in relation to the zones of greatest need from the employment point of view.
  A preliminary survey of a number of possible sites has been made with a view to the selection of those most suitable for industrial development. It is proposed that some part of the future factory building should be on industrial estate lines, in co-operation with, and in extension of, those trading estates, both on the north and south sides of the river, which the local authorities have already established. The North Western Industrial Estates Limited, already responsible for Government factory building in the existing South Lancashire development area, will undertake similar work on Merseyside. It is intended to reconstruct the board of
  954
  the new company so as to include directors, possibly forming a majority of the board, who have special knowledge of Merseyside's needs and problems. The remaining part of the future industrial development will take place on individual sites, and the Board of Trade are, of course, continuing their former endeavours to steer private projects to the Merseyside area, especially those which would employ men.
  In case it should be thought that this Order will act as a magic wand, I would point out that the formal act of scheduling will not result in any immediate large-scale industrial development; the greater likelihood is that the road will be both a hard and a slow one. Apart from any preliminary site development work that needs to be done, it is not by any means certain that an extension of industrial estate activities, or the building of standard factories on the lines usual in other development areas, will do more than help in the solution of some part of the unemployment problem.
  The present capital investment policy does not permit of construction of "advance factories," and all still largely depends on the number and type of projects which happen to come forward. Very few new developments are, in fact, coming forward at the moment with a predominantly male labour demand, or such as might absorb a large proportion of the semi-skilled and unskilled workless, which is the main problem in this area. The resources that can be made available for new factory building remain severely restricted, and must be limited, here as elsewhere, to projects of importance to the export trade or to import saving. Other desirable, but less essential, schemes, though in the long term they might make a contribution to employment on Merseyside, may still have to be deferred until conditions are easier. It is certain, however, that even if scheduling cannot immediately perform miracles it helps to some extent in the short term, and very considerably in the longer term. Moreover, the act of scheduling provides the earnest, if one is needed, of the Government's firm resolution that the intractable problem of unemployment in this area shall be tackled by every means at their disposal. I beg to move.

  955
  Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, the 16th of March last, be approved.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  2.48 p.m.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, the noble Lord who has just moved that this Order should be approved has described it as no magic wand. It is indeed correct to say that. We may perhaps regard the Order as a useful walking stick, but not as one having magic properties. It arises, as the noble Lord has explained, under the Distribution of Industries Act which was introduced by the last Government, and which laid down that there should be a review at the end of three years to see whether any areas should be added. The Order provides, as the noble Lord has stated, two things—minor boundary alterations in Wales and a large new area in Merseyside. As to the Welsh proposals, without endangering my reputation by attempting to pronounce the names of the parishes (I notice that the noble Lord himself did not embark upon them, though he spoke with freedom of the parishes in Merseyside) I would like to welcome the inclusion of the new area in South Wales. It is topographically a sound proposal that it should be brought in and that the Amman Valley, so far as it is industrialised, should be brought into line with the district round about which is already in the development area. This, as I say, is a sound proposal.
  The second part of the Order is of wider significance. A new area will be formed which will be large and important, and will comprise well over a million souls. It is an area which has been hard hit in the past. It was hard hit in prewar years by the unemployment which occurred largely by reason of its dependance on shipping. When world trade suffered a recession, that area was seriously hit in the matter of employment. But during the war period, war-time industry mopped up a large part of this pool of unemployment. The war—artificially it is true—brought something like prosperity to this part. Now there are signs that unemployment is rising again and it is well that the Government should take note of it. To the extent that this measure will alleviate unemployment we welcome it, but we should analyse the
  956
  problem before expressing too rosy a view as to the effect this order will have. The noble Lord himself advanced that point in his speech.
  Unemployment on Merseyside is largely of unskilled men over forty years of age. This is the type of unemployed for which it is difficult to provide. In other development areas experience has shown that the factories erected tend to give employment to women and young people rather than to middle-aged unskilled men. Many of these men found work in circumstances created by the war. Some of them can still be employed on building schemes, but while this is a likely source of employment, it must have its limits. Public works, such as road construction, may also be necessary, though here again I am aware of the desirability of keeping such public works within bounds. The Government should explore every means of employment and not lay too much hope on these men being readily absorbed in the type of factories which are likely to be attracted to the development area. That is not to say that such factories will not be required or are not desirable. It is important, however, to keep a balance between the classes of labour which can be found in these areas, and I hope that in providing factories the Estates Company will keep this constantly before them.
  The President of the Board of Trade, in another place, suggested that there should be established a joint organisation—a development board or something of that character—in the new area, to assist in directing industries to Merseyside. He urged that local authorities should come together and form such a body. Such a board would clearly be useful and would be representative of local authorities and industrial interests. I would remind your Lordships, however, that there is already in existence a body known as the Lancashire Industrial Development Association, whose President is Sir Thomas Barlow. As your Lordships probably know, this Association has already contributed valuable research on the problem of unemployment. Of course, this body may not be in a position to do what the President of the Board of Trade wants the new body to do, as it covers a much wider area than the new development area. None the less, I trust the Government

  957
  are keeping fully in touch with the Development Association because it is a valuable source of information and research.
  Your Lordships will recall that distribution of industry was debated in this House about two months ago on a Motion by my noble friend, Lord Rochdale, and at that time certain dangers were pointed out in applying too closely the policy of special treatment for special areas, unless the future balance of industry in other parts of the country was also borne fully in mind. Your Lordships spent several hours on a very useful discussion on that occasion. While, therefore, we welcome the Order, it will not be out of place to remind the Government of the facts of the situation which affect the country as a whole. For three years there has been little unemployment. In fact, ever since this Government came into office they have had the good fortune to be borne along on a tide of full employment, brought about by the operation of the law of supply and demand filling the great gaps caused by the years of destruction in the war. That was also true after the last war, but in 1919 the gaps were perhaps smaller and certainly competitors put out of business were sooner restored to a position in which they were able to compete with British exports; therefore the period of artificial prosperity which followed the last war was considerably shorter.
  We hope that this time our prosperity rests upon a better basis. None the less, some of the circumstances that told against employment in 1922 and the years following are likely to reappear and it will require more than Special Orders of this character to deal with them. It is important that the Government should encourage the free play of the forces which create employment. Some of those forces are actuated by private enterprise, and some by local authorities and the State. It is important that those who seek to give employment should be disturbed as little as possible by vexatious regulations, such as development charges under the Town and Country Planning Act, or other factors of that kind. It is proper also to bear in mind that where the State is the employer as flexible a system of employment as possible should be devised. I welcome this Order as a useful if small contribution to
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  the problem in the Merseyside area, and hope that it will pass your Lordships' House.
  2.58 p.m.
  VISCOUNT LONG: My Lords, may I take a few moments to deal with the position of the trading estates already formed? As the noble Lord opposite has said, this is not going to be an easy road for anyone, and I point out these details in the hope that he will be able to give some encouragement to the industries now operating in these estates, with a view to preventing unemployment, which is already growing. I think it may be taken for granted that it will not be the big industries, but the medium and small industries which, in the long run, will have the biggest scope on these estates. Some three years ago they were promised a number of things. They were promised that they would get Government contracts. The noble Lord probably realises better than I do that these contracts have failed, because no system has been evolved whereby tenders for them are narrowed down to these firms. I can give one example, in which a contract for £7,000 was lost by a well-known company by a matter of £300, and forty men were immediately put off work. These industries were also promised that they would get controlled materials; but they cannot get controlled materials. They were then told they could get supplies; but they cannot get supplies. They are getting into a very precarious state, and the banks are becoming anxious about the future of the new industries that have been started on these estates. I ask the noble Lord whether anything can be done about materials and supplies.
  These firms were also told that they could get grants and loans; but the machinery is so involved that practically no grants or loans have been made. I rise only to lay stress on these serious aspects of what is going on at the present moment. I would like to make one further point. A well-known industry on the trading estate wants further capital of £20,000. They can find it, but only if there is hope of some of these promises being fulfilled. Otherwise, they will have to shut up shop, and that will be still more serious for the plan of increasing the industrial trading, estates in that particular area. I trust the noble Lord in his reply will be able to give them hope that in

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  some of these matters an easement will be made, which should result in the creation of more trade and the avoidance of unemployment.
  3.1 p.m.
  LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, reference has already been made this afternoon to the Motion that I introduced in your Lordships' House two months ago on the Government White Paper, Distribution of Industry, which dealt with the development areas. On that occasion, while attempting to give the fullest credit to many individuals who have worked so hard, and with a great measure of success, in the various development areas, I could not avoid a certain amount of criticism of the extent to which the policy was being taken—an extent which I thought was being overdone, because I foresaw that there was a danger of it swinging too far and creating a lack of balance. And that, after all, was the very thing which the original distribution of industry policy was aimed at redressing. On this occasion I do not want to repeat any of the points I made two months ago, though I believe many of them to be as pertinent to our discussion on Merseyside as they were then. There are, however, one or two further points that I would like to make. I will confine my remarks to Merseyside and will not refer to the minor alterations to the South Wales development area.
  Like other noble Lords who have spoken to-day, I welcome any concrete step which will do something to overcome the very serious problem that confronts Merseyside. Like the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—I was particularly glad to hear him say this—I feel that we should be deluding ourselves, and misleading those we are attempting to assist, if we were to suggest that the passing of this Order would in any way herald the opening of a new era there. I have no doubt whatever that the present step we are taking will help. But this problem of Merseyside is a very difficult one, for which there is no short cut or easy road to solution. It is in a way far more difficult than any of the problems that have confronted other development areas.
  It has already been pointed out that the size and wealth of the economy of
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  Merseyside was built up during the last century on the fact that the whole area was, in effect, a port area. One has only to look at the principal activities there to realise the enormous proportion of the employment which is attributable, either directly or indirectly, to the fact that Merseyside is a port. Not only do we find shipbuilding, shipping and port facilities, transport, distribution and all the local services that are essential to the smooth running of any large community of people, but even in the case of the productive industries, such as flour milling, sugar refining, oil crushing and so forth, the industries that developed on Merseyside, starting in the last century and developing further in this century, were dependent to a large extent on the fact that their raw materials were imported through that port, and therefore, on the prosperity of the port as such. That being so, and with Merseyside serving so much of the industrial north of England, and dependent on the prosperity of the industrial north of England, it is not surprising that, with the drift of industry to the south, and particularly to areas around London, with the consequent growing importance of London as a port—and, of course, with the growing problems that the textile industry of Lancashire was meeting in its markets all over the world—the problems that began to confront Merseyside took on a very serious aspect indeed.
  That happened at a time—at any rate, up to 1930—when the population of Merseyside was still increasing. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, referred to the fact that subsequent to that year there was a considerable degree of migration from Merseyside, though by the end of the 'thirties that had, to a large extent, cured itself. The fact is that, at any rate up to 1930, the population was increasing, and in order to maintain the prosperity of Merseyside it was necessary not merely to continue the level of international trade as it was but to achieve something considerably in excess of it. That made the problem all the more difficult. It has already been mentioned that the war temporarily solved Merseyside's problems; but they have returned since the war, and other new problems have now presented themselves. Not least of these new problems has been the urgent need to cut down imports to the

  961
  maximum extent possible, particularly in regard to agricultural and food products. All that has contributed to the present position in which Merseyside finds itself.
  Attention has been drawn this afternoon to the attempts that have been made in Liverpool, with its trading estates, to overcome the problem and provide fresh employment. But the difficulty there—which will be a difficulty that will occur throughout Merseyside—is that many of the new industries which have been introduced have been of the lighter type, and, as has been said, employ a high proportion of female labour. The estimated figure of female employment, when all these new projects are completed, is 45 per cent. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said that the problem of unemployment of females was not a serious one. I am not at all sure that he does not underestimate even that. Talking to a number of industrialists in that area, I gained the impression that even now they sometimes have considerable difficulty in obtaining for their work the women they require. Merely to provide industry which will give a high proportion of female labour does not get to the root of the problem of Liverpool or Merseyside.
  The real problem, as Lord Clydesmuir pointed out, is this large core of middle-aged unemployed and unskilled men. It is difficult to see any immediate advantage that the passing of this Order will give in that respect. In the long run, I have no doubt, it will be possible to do something. I hope that it will be possible to introduce certain of the heavier industries there, because the heavier industries, employing a high proportion of men workers, would be able to offer some employment, at any rate after training, to those who are now unemployed. Nevertheless one must admit with regret that there may be a number of men at present unemployed who, even with training, would find it difficult to take full advantage of the new employment that might be available.
  If we look at the shorter term programme, no doubt it would be possible to introduce further light industries. I understand that Liverpool, Bootle and Birkenhead have had special facilities for getting priority for raw materials, although I understand that that has not in fact been of great assistance to them.
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  Therefore, even with the passing of this Order, it would appear that not much immediate advantage can be looked for, at any rate in that direction. Perhaps new light industries can be produced. As I have already pointed out, that would require a higher proportion of female labour, and the question is, where is that labour coming from? I do not know whether there is any possibility in the suggestion that I, and no doubt many of your Lordships, have heard, that something further should be done to reduce the number of women employed in football pool offices. It would represent only a small addition, but it might help. I am inclined to think that the inducements to industrialists to move into the development areas in general, and into Merseyside in particular, are less attractive than they were some years ago. The question therefore is: Can anything else be done about it in the immediate future? I hesitate to suggest it, on this occasion particularly, but it is difficult to see how some further extension to the public works programme (which has already covered much ground in Merseyside since the war) will not be necessary.
  I have mentioned a few, but by no means all, of the problems as I see them. I hope the Minister will not think that I am being unduly pessimistic about the future, or unduly critical, but I feel that these problems are so difficult that one must mention them in order to underline their importance. Undoubtedly, to have the area dealt with as a whole is a real step forward. The only doubt I had about the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—and I am still in something of a haze—was regarding the central authority which is to co-ordinate this development area. I think that some central authority is vitally important if the full advantages are to be obtained. In any planning in this area, it is essential that a proper balance in all respects should be arrived at: a balance as between male and female labour, a balance as between heavy and light industry, and a balance as between industry for export and industry which is producing consumer goods. To go to either extreme must at all costs be avoided. May I give just one example of what I have in mind? If the swing went too far in the direction of goods for export, it would only be piling up diffi

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  culties for Merseyside in the future, because, as your Lordships fully realise, that area is already very susceptible to fluctuations in international trade. On the other hand, to go too far in the other direction, in the production of consumer goods, would surely be only to repeat what many of us feel are mistakes which have been made in some of the other development areas.
  It is not only within Merseyside that a balance must be achieved for planning. There must be a balance as between Merseyside and the surrounding industrial district. Already one hears unpleasant rumours from the South Lancashire industrial area that workers are being attracted from the already undermanned textile industries to the new industries in the North. That sort of thing can so easily happen on Merseyside, unless great care is taken to avoid it. The subject of Merseyside is an immense one, fraught with every sort of complexity, and it is impossible, in a speech in your Lordships' House, to touch upon more than a few of the points. Undoubtedly the authorities who have to deal with it will have a very difficult task. I wish them every luck that is possible; and, in saying that, I hope they will approach their task with an open and not too parochial outlook. I hope they will be prepared to learn from the mistakes of other development areas and, as has already been mentioned, from the research that a great number of other bodies have made in connection with this district during the past years. I hope they will not feel that the same solutions which were applicable to development areas in the 'thirties are necessarily applicable to a development area in 1949 and 1950. Above all things, I hope they will go out of their way to see that no Party political influence is allowed to enter into any of their calculations in any direction.
  3.17 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, it only remains for me to thank noble Lords for their almost enthusiastic welcome of this Order. May I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, for the implied compliment which he has paid us in having a Scotsman to accept an English Order for an English Mersey
  964
  side? One day we may have the temerity to put up an Englishman to accept a Scottish Order! I am very grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Long. If I read his remarks aright, they were so well chosen as to act as a spur to His Majesty's Government to make this scheme even more successful. May I ask the noble Viscount whether he will be good enough to let me have one or two specific examples of the type of trouble, obstruction or difficulty which he is experiencing, so that we can better see what the problem is, rather than try to understand it from generalities? If the noble Viscount will be good enough to let me have those examples, I will see that they are thoroughly investigated.
  I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, who as usual spoke fluently and with great knowledge. He asked me one specific question which I think I should answer, because the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, asked me the same question. It was: Who is to be the co-ordinating authority? As regards the co-ordination required under the Distribution of Industry Act, all the points which the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, mentioned—including the balance between one type of industry and another—will come under the Board of Trade, and will be exercised through their regional organisation. Other than that, as the noble Lord pointed out, it is desirable to have other forms of co-operation—for instance, in publicising the area, and ensuring that there is not needless competition. It may well be that the organisation to which the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, referred would be appropriate, but my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade has suggested—and I repeat the suggestion—that the local authorities might get together and see what can be done. My right honourable friend would like to hear any suggestions from any responsible authority in Merseyside as to the best way of going about this particular problem of co-ordination, other than what is called for under the Act. I am grateful to noble Lords. I am grateful because they have appreciated that His Majesty's Government are not going to have the charge made that they are not doing everything that it is practicable to do in order to cure what all noble Lords have agreed is this very intractable problem of unemployment on Merseyside.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I did not have the pleasure of hearing the noble Lord's first speech. May I ask whether, by chance, in the list of things that His Majesty's Government are going to do to cure this "intractable problem" there will be included the reopening of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange?
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I did not mention that because I thought it was outside the scope of the Order which we are debating.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRY (DEVELOPMENT AREAS) (SCOTLAND) ORDER, 1949
  3.21 p.m.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, March 16 last, be approved. The purpose of the Order, as your Lordships will have gathered from the discussions that have just taken place, is to add to the Scottish areas included in the First Schedule to the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945—that is to say, the development areas—the following: (1) an area in the Highlands bordering on the Cromarty and Beauly Firths, and (2) parts of the burghs of Irvine and Linlithgow which are excluded by the present boundary line, which divides these burghs into two parts. As some of your Lordships will be aware, these proposals were announced in the White Paper published last October. They follow a review of the boundaries of the development areas which, under the terms of Section 7 of the Act, had to be carried out within three years of its being passed in June, 1945. As laid down in the Act, a review has been carried out in Scotland jointly by the Board of Trade and the Secretary of State. The local authorities affected have been consulted and, apart from a representation by West Lothian County Council, have offered no objections to the proposals.
  The effect of the Order will be that in the areas concerned, under the terms of the Distribution of Industry Act, certain facilities can be given by the Government to encourage industrial development. The chief of these are as follows: first, the provision of industrial sites
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  and the building of factories, at the Government's expense, for lease to private industrial firms; secondly, financial assistance by the Treasury, by way of block grant or loan, towards the cost of establishing new businesses in the area; thirdly, assistance by the Ministers concerned towards the cost of improving basic services, such as roads, water, sewerage and housing. All these facilities have been made available with marked success in the existing development areas. They do not, of course, imply that the Government are prepared to spend money regardless of need. In particular, at the present time it is not generally possible to build factories except for firms whose products can be exported, or which will save imports. Road, housing, water and other works, of course, are affected by the general need to limit capital investment. The scheduling of the areas proposed will mean that they have a measure of special treatment, and are given all the assistance that in present circumstances it is possible for them to have.
  May I say a few words about the reasons for the inclusion of the Highlands area? The reasons which have led the Government to include part of the Highlands in the development areas are, briefly, these. As your Lordships know—particularly those from across the Border—the problem of restoring some degree of prosperity to the Highlands and Islands has been engaging the attention of successive Governments. The population of the seven crofting counties in 1947 was about 300,000, compared with 400,000 eighty years before. Unemployment is serious. In the Highlands and Islands as a whole, it averaged, in the years before the war, about 18 per cent. of the insured population. In January, 1948, it was nearly 6 per cent. The actual number of insured workers unemployed in January, 1948, was about 3,400 and, in January, 1949, 4,570. These two figures are not strictly comparable, because the new National Insurance scheme introduced in the middle of 1948 covers a rather wider field than the old Unemployment Insurance scheme, but there is little doubt that the position in January, 1949, was slightly worse than that at the beginning of 1948.
  It is clear from these figures that the problem of economic development in the Highlands is a serious one, and needs to

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  be tackled by every means in the Government's power. The scheduling of this area as a development area is, of course, only one—although a very important one—of a number of measures which the Government are taking for the rehabilitation of the Highlands. If I may quote from the White Paper, paragraph 107:
  "The revival of Highland economy depends to a large extent upon the basic industries of agriculture, forestry and fisheries; upon the exploitation of the water-power resources of the area; and upon the encouragement of the tourist traffic."
  A great deal is being done, or is planned, to achieve these ends, and Government assistance or encouragement is being given otherwise than through the Distribution of Industry Act. A comprehensive programme of developments for the next five years is now in preparation and will shortly be discussed by the Scottish Economic Conference. But although it is only a part of the whole pattern, affecting only a limited area of the Highlands, some further development of productive industry is essential to their economic well-being. With those few remarks, I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday the 16th March last be approved.—(Lord Morrison.)
  3.28 p.m.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, and I now find ourselves on our native heath where place names have no terrors, and so we are unlikely to come under the fire of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who now sits back happily with his task achieved. This Order, although it arises from machinery which is the same as that for the last one, deals with a very different type of area. The Order is in two parts, the first of which provides for boundary adjustments at Irvine and Linlithgow. I believe these adjustments are wise and timely, though I note it was stated by the right honourable Member for Linlithgow in another place that, in his view, they are overdue so far as Linlithgow is concerned. Be that as it may, this is the first review under the Act, and it is, therefore, quite understandable that adjustments should now be made.
  I should like to make a few observations on the Highland areas. As the noble
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  Lord, Lord Morrison, has said, the Highland problem has beset successive Administrations for seventy or eighty years. Many steps have been taken from time to time to arrest the depopulation of these areas, and still the problem persists. The noble Lord will be aware of the important part that the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) plays in relation to the survey of Scottish industries, and he will, of course, be aware that the Council has urged that the Highlands should be scheduled as development areas. I therefore think that this Order will be welcomed generally in Scotland as a wise and prudent step. It appears that the comparatively narrow delimitations of the new Order are deliberately intended to concentrate on that part of the Highlands which is most likely to be able to absorb new industries, with the aid of hydro-electric power. The area selected round the Cromarty Firth, including Inverness and running out to the Great Glen, is undoubtedly worthy of development, and it is to be hoped that good results will follow from its selection.
  But Highland industries are not altogether as other industries, just as Highlanders are not altogether as other people. It requires careful and scientific study and effort to reproduce and extend all that is good in the indigenous Highland industries, crafts and processes, for these are the industries that have the best chance of survival. No doubt other industries will come, but those which are indigenous to the Highlands will have good prospects and should be fostered.
  If this area is to be a success, I think that docking facilities will be necessary. I say that because, if ships of, say, up to 10,000 tons could bring raw materials into the Cromarty Firth, I believe that there are firms which would set up factories there. The importance of getting raw materials cheaply and quickly, which can best be done by water, is very great and therefore I trust that one of the developments in the new area will be the provision of docking facilities to induce the import of raw materials. It is a matter of disappointment to some that the area does not include Fort William and that it does not extend to the south end of the Great Glen. That part of the country near to Fort William appears to be eminently suitable for

  969
  hydro-electric development and manufactures requiring electricity, for example carbide.
  There are also some people in Scotland who have expressed doubt and anxiety about the concentration of work only in the comparatively limited area set out in the Order, round the Cromarty Firth, for they would prefer to see improved opportunities for employment, not in a limited area like that, but in many small towns scattered throughout the Highlands. Their criticism is that the result of this measure might be to draw people from the Highlands into this new area round Inverness, and that would in itself cause depopulation of the glens. I note that the Secretary of State replied to this that it was better to be employed on the doorstep than far away—that is to say at Inverness rather than in the industrial belt of Scotland or over the Border or over the seas—for contact with the glens can be maintained. I think that that is so. None the less, I hope that those who are working this development order will bear in mind that the desirable thing is to keep the population actually on the land of the Highlands, or as near to it as possible.
  We must never forget that the oldest industry of all, agriculture, still employs the largest number of people in the Highlands. I do not know whether your Lordships saw an interesting letter in yesterday's Times by Major Fraser, in which he hotly contested encroachment on good agricultural land in the Highlands. It is true that industries developed such as are envisaged here will necessitate some encroachment, but the fact that in our hills, our glens and our valleys lies a great field for meat production from excellent Scottish breeds should not be lost sight of by our planners. Therefore, if development takes place, the question of leaving good agricultural land so far as possible to its proper use must be fully borne in mind. As the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, said, these old industries bulk largely in the welfare of the Highlands—fishing, agriculture and forestry. My belief is that the Forestry Commission can make a big contribution to the revival of the Highlands, and there are signs that they are already doing so.
  There is one difficulty which faces all Highland schemes—namely, the cost of freight. I make a strong plea for
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  specially reduced freights for the Highland areas, because it is clear that without some such preferential rates, the benefits which may follow from this Order will be very limited. It is true that there are special rates for bulk traffic applicable to all parts of the country, but compared with the bulk of manufacture in other parts, Highland traffic is likely to be small, and the quantity which will attract those special rates will seldom be reached. I therefore urge special consideration of reduced freights for the Highlands, run in conjunction with this scheme. I know this has been frequently urged, but it wants just an extra push to secure it. If the nationalisation of railways and road transport is to bring any real benefit to the Highlands, then the special character of these remote parts must be recognised and must receive special treatment. I believe it will be in the national interest to do so, in order that the Highlands may be preserved. So far as it goes, this Order is a wise and proper step. I should like to see it covering a wider area, but it is not an instrument that we can amend; we must take it or leave it. So we take it and accord it a welcome.
  3.37 p.m.
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, after the most informative speech by my noble friend, Lord Clydesmuir, I suppose I ought to know all about this Distribution of Industry Order but, as people sometimes say that the Scots are hard-headed, dour and ill to please, possibly I am all that, and more. I would like, however, to ask for a little further information about this proposed Order. It seems to me that the Order is really twofold. Its first object, I gather, is to make provision and give power to the Secretary of State to alter the boundaries and the limits of certain areas in the existing schedule of development areas. I suppose the object of that is, chiefly, to facilitate administrative and financial arrangements in the event of extra unemployment. I see no harm in that but I do not think it will be a great advantage.
  As regards the second object, which is to give the Secretary of State powers to bring in a new Highland Order in the event or likelihood of excessive unemployment, being a Highlander I happen to know most of the area which it is pro

  971
  posed to schedule. There is no real unemployment there today, and little likelihood of extra unemployment there in the near future, or for some years to come. I know the area fairly well, and it is mainly agricultural. Agriculture is doing very well indeed in that part of the Highlands, and it is likely to do better still as time goes on.
  If there is any unemployment, it is not because of lack of industry; it is because of lack of houses. The men in this Highland area, skilled men and others who would work on the farms and in agriculture, can find nowhere to live, and therefore they cannot get employment. We would be spending our time to better advantage if, instead of giving powers to the Secretary of State to schedule a possible area, which only involves more paper work and more "jobs for the boys," we did something practical to give employment in the event of any prospect of unemployment—and we can do that by providing for the building of houses. We should spend our time better in planning something real, something that will give real employment, than in talking about adding to the development areas a district where unemployment is very unlikely to take place. Of course, it may be that the Secretary of State has in view some particular industrial enterprise that he wishes to have powers to establish—powers which he would get if this Order went through. If we are to have any additional enterprise brought into the area to make use of the electric power we have taken there, surely we do not want urban interests brought in, because the men are already leaving the land fast enough in order to go to the towns. We want rural industries established, and not urban industries. What we would like to know is whether the Secretary of State has any idea in his head of establishing particular new enterprises. If so, what are they; and are they suitable to an agricultural area or are they not? That is what we want to know, and that is the information for which I beg to ask.
  3.42 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I wish to welcome this Order as being a step in the right direction. I have been interested to listen to the speeches this afternoon, because they have dealt almost
  972
  entirely with the Highlands. I was also interested to read the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland in another place, as practically the whole of his speech introducing this Order dealt with the Highlands. I do not fully understand the Order, any more than does my noble friend the Duke of Montrose. I am not clear whether this Order applies only to small parts of the Highlands or whether it applies to the whole of the Highlands. If it applies only to a small part of the Highlands, I suggest to His Majesty's Government that they ought to have a development order applying to the whole of the Highlands, and that they ought to work out a big planned scheme for developing the Highlands along lines which Highland men and women understand. It has been suggested this afternoon that if factories were established, say, at Cromarty, they would draw men from the glens and from the farm-steadings in the crofts of the rural areas. I think that that would probably be the final effect, indeed that is bound to be the effect, unless there are proper rural industries in these out-of-the-way places where the men and women can work.
  Certain industries have been referred to this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Morrison—afforestation, for instance. What has happened with regard to afforestation? I do not know whether I am right, but I understand that the amount of money which was allocated for the purposes of afforestation in the United Kingdom has been split up into certain sums, to be spent so much in one country and so much in the other. I suggest to His Majesty's Government that, so far as the Highlands are concerned, a sum ought to be allotted, quite apart from any ordinary expenditure that may come out of the round sum given for that purpose, to be expended on afforestation there. The same applies with regard to agriculture. Agriculture is at a low ebb. For instance, we are told that every year, at one time, something like 250,000 store cattle used to pass through the Falkirk markets near Stirling. How many pass through to-day? I would not venture to say, but they would be comparatively few. The sheep have been going off the hills; they are not there in anything like the same numbers that they used to be. What about pigs? Pigs can be produced in large numbers in the Highlands, and with the hydro-electric schemes (which

  973
  perhaps are coming in too great a number at the present moment) bacon factories could be erected and be provided with the necessary raw material.
  Then what about the woollen industry? The Secretary of State for Scotland suggested that there ought to be a carpet industry in the Highlands. Why not? But if a textile industry is to be developed in the Highlands, then I sincerely hope it will not be treated as was the hand-woven loom industry in the Orkneys and Shetlands the other day—namely, by putting on a prohibitive purchase tax. If such schemes are to be developed, I suggest that the Secretary of State for Scotland must be advised not only by the Board of Trade but also be in close consultation—hand-in-glove consultation—with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so that what they do on the one hand is not destroyed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other.
  We have been told this afternoon that these schemes are worked out by the Secretary of State for Scotland, in consultation with the Board of Trade. I am not certain whether the Board of Trade to which the noble Lord referred is the Board of Trade in Whitehall or a special Board of Trade which is being established at St. Andrew's House. Perhaps the noble Lord will enlighten us upon that point. I would, however, venture to suggest that there ought to be some properly constituted body, apart from that at St. Andrew's House, which the Secretary of State for Scotland could consult in these matters. The noble Lord spoke about the Scottish Advisory Council—that nebulous, secretive council which never makes a report and always functions behind a black curtain. That does not seem to me to be the form of Council which will help us in Scotland to restore the Highlands. If, however, that is the Council to be utilised, will His Majesty's Government, or the Secretary of State for Scotland, use that Advisory Council in such a way that the people of Scotland may know what it advises and what it considers should be done?
  It seems to me that £10,000,000 might have been taken from the extravagant ground-nuts scheme in Tanganyika, on which already £50,000,000 has been expended with very little advantage. If
  974
  £10,000,000 of that money had been taken and allocated to the Highlands, to be spent on a properly conceived plan of development for the Highlands, based on their natural resources and along lines which the Highland people understand, we should have made a good start in the last two years towards resuscitating the Highlands, and helping to restore that part of Scotland to prosperity and, at the same time, to build up its population. I suggest that if the Government continue with a scheme of this nature—I call it a niggling scheme, compared with the magnitude of the interests involved—then in ten years' time the population of the Highlands will probably have gone down another 20 per cent. below its present level. The noble Lord, Lord Morrison, told us that the population in January last showed a decline compared with the population of the year before—or of a few months before.
  LORD MORRISON: Will the noble Viscount forgive my interrupting? What I said was that last January the unemployment figure showed a slight increase, but that the population had declined over a period of eighty years.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: The population is certainly not increasing now, and the probability is that, unless the Government bring forward some really large and practical scheme, the population will decrease. I have the greatest sympathy for what has been said by other noble Lords who have spoken about the problems of the Highlands, and I would conclude by saying that, while I welcome the Order, because through such an Order a start can be made, I should like to see an Order on a very much larger basis brought forward as soon as possible.
  3.53 p.m.
  LORD MORRISON: My Lords, may I express my thanks to all the noble Lords who have taken part in this short but interesting debate, and, with your Lordships' permission, very briefly answer one or two points which have been raised. I will, if your Lordships will allow me, answer them, so to speak, in reverse order. The noble Viscount who has just spoken complains that the present Government have not spent £10,000,000 in developing the Highlands. Surely he has forgotten that the present Govern

  975
  ment have been to a very considerable extent responsible for the development of the Scottish Hydro-Electric Board, which is going to spend, when all the work that is contemplated and, indeed, has been commenced, is completed, approximately something like £50,000,000.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Will the noble Lord forgive my interrupting him, but is he quite right in saying that the present Government are responsible for the whole of the hydro-electric development in the Highlands to-day? If my recollection serves me aright, this was started under the Coalition or National Government, and a great deal was done under that Government before the present Government came into power. I really cannot let the noble Lord get away with that.
  LORD MORRISON: I think that if the noble Viscount reads the OFFICIAL REPORT he will see that I did not say that the present Government were solely responsible—I said they were largely responsible. I think every fair-minded person in Scotland would admit that since 1945 the present Government have not been lacking in their efforts in connection with the Hydro-Electric Board and its projects. They have done their best to assist in every way. I find that the noble Viscount always assumes a delightful air of simplicity and innocence in dealing with these matters. He said that he does not know what this Order covers, and he expressed the opinion that it ought to apply to the whole of the Highlands. It is clearly stated in the Order, which I have moved and which is available to very noble Lord, what the Order covers. The fact that he raises the question of whether or not it ought to apply to the whole of the Highlands rather indicates that the noble Viscount has not, perhaps, paid sufficient attention to what the Order is and the Act of Parliament under which the Order is proposed. An alternative to selecting this area would have been what he advocates—to schedule the whole of the Highlands, which would have been much too large an area and would have included some places such as Fort William where there is a serious scarcity of labour. The object of the Act is to deal with unemployment, whether it arises in special circumstances or in special areas. In
  976
  Fort William, as I say, there is a scarcity of labour, and, as the noble Viscount knows well, there are very isolated areas in the Highlands which are not large enough and are not suitable in other respects to cater for any substantial industrial development.
  The noble Duke said that Scotsmen were hard-headed and ill to please. I must say, straight away, that my experience has been: hard-headed, yes, but ill to please, no. The very fact that noble Lords opposite have permitted me to stand up for the cause of Scotland so often from these Benches bears out what I say—that they are not ill to please. The noble Duke raised three points. He said that he was particularly interested in the type of industries which it was hoped to attract to the new development area. He was also concerned lest serious unemployment should develop in what is primarily an agricultural area. His last point, I think, related to the question of housing. The industries which will probably have most prospect of successful operation in the Highlands, I suggest, are those which are based on the resources of the area, for example, canning or quick-freezing industries which make use of the agricultural produce of the area, industries based on forestry products or industries which require substantial quantities of electric power, to be derived from the new hydro-electric schemes. But I would emphasise that much will depend on the response made by private industry to the new facilities now to be made available, under this Order, in the area under Government auspices.
  The noble Duke would doubtless like to know what exactly are the precise figures of unemployment. Precise figures are not available of the amount of unemployment in Dingwall, since this area is included in the Inverness Employment Exchange area and figures are available only for the district as a whole. On February 14, 1949, the numbers unemployed in the Inverness area were 388 men and 171 women, a total of 559. As was indicated in the White Paper on Distribution of Industry, the area selected for development area purposes has been chosen because of its suitability as a focal centre of industrial development for the Highlands as a whole, and not merely because of its local unemployment.

  977
  The noble Duke raised the very serious question—perhaps the most serious question—of housing. The housing situation in the Highlands as a whole is difficult, as it is in the rest of the country. The noble Duke will be glad to know that the rate of progress of local authority housing has recently improved, and preliminary arrangements have been made for the importation into the Highlands and Islands of 1,000 prefabricated Swedish timber houses, 250 of which are earmarked specifically for industrial workers. These houses are particularly well adapted for erection in the Highlands, not only because of their appearance and construction, but also because the timber components of which they are made can readily be transported to remote areas.
  I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, for his very helpful remarks. He raised the question of the Great Glen. He may be interested to know that the survey of the Great Glen which was conducted last year by the Department of Health in consultation with other Departments has now been considered by the Advisory Panel on the Highlands and Islands and by the Scottish Economic Conference. The Secretary of State hopes to arrange for the publication of the report before long. The noble Lord also raised the very important question of the cost of freight in that area. It is true that transport charges between the Highlands and the remaining parts of Great Britain are in general high, and that these high charges have a serious effect on industry and commerce in the Highlands. The Scottish Council (Development and Industry) and other bodies have frequently drawn attention to the difficulties caused by these transport charges.
  Under Section 76 of the Transport Act, 1947, the British Transport Commission are bound to draw up charges schemes for confirmation by the Transport Tribunal, and it is the duty of the Commission, within two years from the passing of the Act or such longer period as the Minister allows, to draw up these schemes, and when they are prepared it will be open to interested persons to submit objections. The Scottish Council have already sent a deputation to the Transport Commission to draw their attention to the difficulties arising from the heavy transport charges in the Highlands,
  978
  and there is no doubt that when the charges schemes are prepared they will be looked at very critically by all parties interested in the welfare of the Highlands. The consideration of the charges schemes will provide an opportunity for raising any necessary objections. I should like to thank those noble Lords who have taken part in this brief discussion for the helpful contributions they have made.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (NORTHERN IRELAND) REGULATIONS, 1949
  4.4 p.m.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, March 16 last, be approved. At this late hour I do not propose to make a lengthy contribution to a debate that I am anticipating with a degree of excitement, but I think it would be desirable, if your Lordships will permit me, to say a few words about the regulations contained in this Order. First of all, the Regulations are almost exactly the same as Regulations already approved, first, for England and Wales, and, secondly, for Scotland. In the compilation of the register of electors for October next, in the provisions relating to the registration of absent voters, in the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers and in the provisions dealing with Service voters, the Regulations are exactly the same for Northern Ireland as those for England and Wales and for Scotland.
  May I now have a few words about the differences that exist—because there are minor differences between the Regulations applying to the different countries? Normally, when a register of electors for the Imperial Parliament is issued in Northern Ireland it will make no provision for local government elections or local government registers. It will be confined purely and simply to Parliamentary elections. Notwithstanding that, in every third year, coincident with the publication of a spring register, there will be a Northern Ireland register for the elections to the House of Commons in Northern Ireland and for local government elections in that country. That register will be compiled under regula

  979
  tions which apply to Northern Ireland institutions only and which will have no reference to this country. Because of that arrangement, it is provided that the dates which govern the publication of the registers in this country shall be varied, in the case of Northern Ireland, in order to bring them into line with those relating to the register for the Northern Ireland elections.
  Finally, as your Lordships will have noticed in reading the Order, whereas in this country we have ceased to employ revising barristers, who hold prolonged courts to determine claims and objections, in Northern Ireland they are still maintained; and provision for them is made in this Order. With that brief explanation, I ask the House to give their approval to this Order.
  Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, March 16 last, be approved.—(Lord Shepherd.)
  4.8 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has been as good as his word, and has not raised any excitement. I have no intention of raising the temperature either, but before this Motion is put to the vote I should like to draw attention to a paragraph in these Regulations which may have important consequences. As the noble Lord has said, it is a paragraph which will also have appeared in the earlier Regulations already approved and which may therefore involve the same difficulties in other parts of the country. The Regulations begin by saying that they are made under the Representation of the People Act, 1948, and we shall all agree—indeed, it was implied in what the noble Lord has just said—that the Regulations as such do not and cannot enlarge the right to vote in a Parliamentary election. The right to vote in a Parliamentary election is conferred by the Representation of the People Act and not in any way by these Regulations, which are matters of machinery. Paragraph 20 (1) (b) runs as follows:
  "The registration officer before registering any person (other than a service voter) may, if he thinks it necessary—
  (b) require that person either to produce a certificate of naturalisation or to make a
  980
  statutory declaration that he was a British subject or citizen of Eire on the qualifying date."
  Of course, the reason for a certificate of naturalisation would be that the individual was not, in the first instance, a British subject, but had become such by naturalisation.
  That is not connected with the point to which I am going to call attention. The other words are:
  "…to make a statutory declaration that he was a British subject or citizen of Eire on the qualifying date."
  When you look at the Representation of the People Act, you find, as one would expect, that the persons upon whom that Act confers the right of being a Parliamentary voter are British subjects, and nobody else. So that if we are concerned simply with the Representation of the People Act, 1948—which is the governing Act—and these Regulations are made under the Act, it is apparent that the necessary test for a man to be qualified to exercise the Parliamentary franchise in Northern Ireland is that he is a British subject.
  The question therefore arises as to how it comes about that we now find in the Regulations the alternative test that he is a citizen of Eire, even though he is not a British subject. This raises the point which I raised in this House last December—it was then discussed by a number of noble Lords—as to what is the meaning of the phrase "citizen of Eire." We have been informed that on Easter Monday next, which is less than a fortnight from now, there will come into existence an independent, sovereign republic which is going to call itself the Republic of Ireland, or the Republic of Eire. At this moment, of course, everybody who lives in the Dominion of Eire—which is the condition at this moment there existing—is living under allegiance to the British Crown, and is living in an area which is within the Commonwealth. What is going to happen on Easter Monday next is that that will no longer be true. The result of what happens on Easter Monday next—I do not stop to argue about it, although I have no conceivable doubt about it—puts it beyond question that the Republic of Eire will become internationally a sovereign, independent, foreign State. It is true, as we all know, that the present Prime Minister offered the soothing

  981
  assurance that His Majesty's Government would not so "regard" it; but I am afraid that what His Majesty's Government are pleased to say they will not regard does not make any difference at all. We shall see in due course whether it is not acknowledged that the result is the creation of a new, independent, foreign, sovereign State.
  The citizens of that new State may be called citizens of Eire, but the question is whether they are citizens of Eire in any sense which can justify the use of that phrase in paragraph 20 (1) (b) of the Regulations. I need hardly say that I am not for a moment claiming to lay down the law; it is not for me, or for any member of the House, not even the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, in his present capacity, to lay down the law. I am saying only that a very considerable doubt appears to some of us to arise. How does it come about that we find in these Regulations that a man may claim to be registered to cast his vote at a Parliamentary election, say, in Belfast, for the choice of a Member of Parliament here at Westminster in the House of Commons, when he is not a British subject? The answer is said to be, "Because in the middle of last year Parliament passed the British Nationality Act, 1948." That was an Act which some of us found it rather difficult to interpret; and I think, even to-day, that it contains some rather difficult language. We pointed out at the time that the clauses which dealt specially with the citizens of Eire were extremely difficult to interpret with precision.
  The reason why these Regulations put this in as one of the alternative qualifications for being a voter in a constituency in Northern Ireland at a Parliamentary election for choosing a Member for the House of Commons across the way, is to be found in Section 3 (2) of the British Nationality Act, 1948. That subsection says:
  "Subject to the provisions of this section, any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom and Colonies"
  (and no doubt the Representation of the People Act, 1948, is such a law; in fact it received the Royal Assent on the same day as the British Nationality Act) shall, until it is altered,
  "have effect in relation to citizens of Eire who are not British subjects in like manner as it has effect in relation to British subjects."
  982
  I ventured to point out in the debate last December that, to my mind at least, it was not at all clear that when Parliament in the month of July last used that language, and talked about "a citizen of Eire," it meant anything but a citizen of the Dominion of Eire. At that time Eire was a Dominion of the Crown; at that time Eire was a member of the Commonwealth. From Easter Monday next that will no longer be true. It is manifest that we must be careful not to confuse an indentity of label, as though that were the same thing as an identity of subject matter.
  One view of the matter—I speak of it with all respect, because I know it is so viewed officially—is that last July, when the Republic of Eire was not in the Contemplation of His Majesty's Ministers at all, and not in the contemplation of Parliament at all, none the less, by a process of divination, Parliament meant by "citizens of Eire" citizens of a Republic which did not then exist, and which, so far as His Majesty's Government knew, would not exist, but which, as it happened to their surprise, did come into existence at a later date. It may be so; but also it may not be so. If the one view is right, then, obviously, after Easter Monday next a man who claims to be a citizen of the independent Republic of Eire will have no right on that ground to be registered as a Parliamentary voter in Northern Ireland; though on the other view he would be entitled to do so even though he was—as I believe is sometimes the case—an American of Irish ancestry who, under the Act which was passed by Mr. de Valera, I think in 1935, had conferred on him the citizenship of Eire. I confess that it seems to me rather odd that a former cab driver in Chicago—who, when he was made a citizen of Eire, was made a citizen of a Dominion of the Crown, but who is now entirely without any sort of connection with the British Crown at all—if he resides in Northern Ireland (whatever "residence" may mean, and I do not discuss that) will acquire the right to vote for the election of a Member in the Imperial Parliament for the place where he casts his vote. Certainly Parliament did not intend that, and certainly the Government did not intend it. But stranger things have happened, and it may be that that is so.

  983
  Fortunately, the matter can now be decided judicially, because if your Lordships will look at Section 70 of the Representation of the People Act, the placing of an individual on the Parliamentary register does not in itself give him a right to vote wherever he comes from and to whatever Sovereign or Republic he may owe allegiance. On the contrary, it can be challenged—and I read briefly what is provided in Section 70 of the Representation of the People Act:
  "An appeal shall lie to the county court"—
  in this case with the county court in Northern Ireland—
  "(a) from any decision under this Act of the registration officer on any claim for registration or objection to a person's registration made to and considered by him."
  It follows, therefore, that if the individual who makes this claim persuades the registration officer (by making a statutory declaration that he is a "citizen of Eire") to put him on the register, if he is not a citizen of Eire in the relevant sense he can be challenged, and the county court will then decide the meaning of "citizen of Eire" as passed in the British Nationality Act of July last year. If the court decides that it means the citizen of a Republic which did not then exist, and which neither Parliament nor the Government believed was going to exist, then he and his friends will be entitled to vote in the way they think right under the ballot in that Parliamentary election. But if, by any chance, the county court were to decide that that is not the meaning of "citizen of Eire," and that the individual, though he is a citizen of a foreign republic, is not a "citizen of Eire" in the sense in which Parliament used the words in the Act which was passed last July, then the county court will decide that he must not be included in the register of voters.
  I have no means whatever of knowing, and I do not seek to anticipate, whether such a challenge might arise; but I am very comforted to know that this matter ceases to be a controversy between lawyers—lawyers are always friends, but in a controversy we do not always take the same view—and is to be decided judicially. If it is said, "After all, the county court decision in Northern Ireland need not be regarded as a decision of the
  984
  final tribunal," it is comforting to know that there is a possible appeal. Section 70 (2) of the Representation of the People Act goes on to provide that there may be an appeal to the Court of Appeal—that would be in Northern Ireland—and it goes on to say:
  "No appeal shall lie from the decision of the Court of Appeal on appeal from a decision of the county court under this section."
  In other words, if the case does arise and goes to appeal, three Lords Justices of Northern Ireland—very skilled and competent people, as I believe they have always shown themselves to be—will decide this knotty point.
  Let me say quite plainly that I am not doing more than pointing out that the Regulations to which we are asked to give assent on the Motion moved by the noble Lord opposite, do provide the opportunity for finding out which view is right. I should think it very probable that in due course that would be so decided. It is quite true, as Lord Shepherd said at the beginning of his speech, that the same question might have arisen, and I might have made this speech, when we had the corresponding Regulations for other parts of the United Kingdom. As a matter of fact, I never observed the contents of the earlier Regulations. I do not know whether it was the fact that the noble Lord was so little exciting, or whether it was that I was away doing something else at the time. But it does not make any difference, because exactly the same point may arise in connection with any part of the United Kingdom if a challenge is made as to who is entitled to claim to vote on the ground that he is still a "citizen of Eire."
  Let me say this, in conclusion. I have not found very great difficulty in understanding the reason for the phrase "citizens of Eire who are not British subjects," as it was used when Eire was a Dominion. I think it plainly refers to the circumstance that the Act passed in Dublin by Mr. de Valera, which embraced a number of people of Irish origin as citizens of Eire, undoubtedly included people who were not British subjects. An American citizen of Irish extraction might be an example. So there is no difficulty about that. The point will be a very neat one, not merely interesting to constitutional lawyers—which may not matter much—but of very great importance

  985
  indeed in deciding, or helping to decide, how we shall make up the list of voters for electing Members to the British House of Commons.
  It will be observed, of course, that the question involves wider issues. When a successful candidate is elected to the British House of Commons, the first thing he does is to walk up the Chamber to take the Oath. The Oath happens to be an Oath of Allegiance to His Majesty the King. I am afraid that at present I have not succeeded in fully understanding how a future citizen of Eire, who is a citizen of an independent and foreign Republic, and who owes no sort of allegiance to His Majesty the King, can very well take an Oath of Allegiance to him. But that is a matter which no doubt will be settled hereafter. I am concerned in pointing out to the House—and I think it should be pointed out clearly—only that there is no need to have any further controversy between competitive legal opinions. It may be that the view I have formed is wrong, and in that case I shall be quite willing to receive correction. At any rate, the matter now arises and it arises in a perfectly definite way. It will arise when these lists are made up in Northern Ireland, and one way or another it will be judicially decided. That being so, I do not offer any opposition to the Motion which the noble Lord opposite has moved. As he truly says, in substance these Regulations follow a common pattern. I should think they are perfectly reasonable Regulations; and I have ventured to intervene merely to point out, as clearly as I can to anybody who happens to be interested in the subject, that now we shall get a judicial decision on what I think is a rather difficult and doubtful point.
  VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I rise only for the purpose of saying that I am at one with the observations which my noble and learned friend has made. I should be glad if the point were cleared up.
  4.31 p.m.
  LORD SCHUSTER: My Lords, in opening this debate the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, observed that the hour was late. The hour now, of course, is still later, but I trust that I shall be forgiven if I make a few observations, for I do not entirely accept the view that either the noble and learned Viscount, Lord
  986
  Maugham, or the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, has expressed—that is, that we should accept these Regulations without more ado. I do not wish—indeed, it would be impertinent and presumptuous if I were to do so—to express any opinion on a point of law. My object is to suggest to your Lordships that, in the circumstances, these Regulations should not be approved. This is not a question to be settled by a county court judge in Northern Ireland or, on appeal, by three Judges sitting there; it was settled by Parliament. The question is whether a citizen of an independent, sovereign Republic should be entitled to cast a vote in the election of a Member of the House of Commons of this country.
  The question turns really upon the meaning of the section of the British Nationality Act which my noble friend quoted. Nobody, I am sure, thought, at the time when that Act was passed, that the result would be to confer this franchise upon the citizens of an independent Republic. We were told in express terms on behalf of the Government that at the time when the negotiations were being carried on they had no idea that this declaration of an independent Republic was to follow. That assurance was, I am sure, quite unnecessary, for His Majesty's Government, in their mad rush to disintegrate the British Empire, have proved, as much by their lack of foresight as by their lack of caution, that no one could attribute to them the capacity for caring what was going to happen. It was the case of the blind leading the blind—and, unfortunately, it was we who were the blind and who have fallen into the ditch. What dismays me is that the blind conductor, having led us there, should now turn round and congratulate himself on having brought us into that unenviable position.
  I should have thought the proper thing for the Government to do now was to remedy that which they have inadvertently done in conferring this franchise. No one, surely, will contend that it is right that a citizen of Eire, who owes no allegiance to the King, should be able to cast a vote in a Parliamentary election in this country. This Regulation confers no right; the right is there already. All that the Regulation does is to provide a means whereby the right can be vindicated. At the same time, if we

  987
  accept the Regulations, we actually sanctify that right—
  VISCOUNT SIMON: I hope the noble Lord will not think that that is my attitude.
  LORD SCHUSTER: I am sure it is not; but the world at large will think that it is our attitude if we accept these Regulations; if we accept this claim to vote on the basis of citizenship of Eire, and nothing else, the world at large will think that we are at least consenting—which we are not. If, on the other hand, the right exists, it is a right which all of us surely will agree should not exist. Therefore I suggest that it is not right that these Regulations should be approved. My noble and learned friend carefully abstained from expressing his own view—though one may guess what view he held—and in the circumstances it would be improper for me to express mine. This Regulation makes it possible for a citizen of this new Republic to have the right to intervene in our affairs. Against that I protest, and I invite your Lordships to reject the Regulation.
  4.35 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I should not have intervened but for the speech which has just been made by the noble Lord, Lord Schuster. I think it is right, however, that I should now intervene in what is a very important debate, and a debate which I am extremely glad has taken place. I should like to make perfectly plain the legal position as I see and accept it, and to express the opinion of my noble friends in this House on the political implications, or the absence of political implications, in what we do to-day. As I understand it, these Regulations are a mere piece of machinery. The only reason why there are separate Regulations for Northern Ireland, and that they did not come into the general Regulations for England and Wales—I do not know about Scotland—
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): That has been done.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: —is that there seems to be a difference in Northern Ireland between the Parliamentary franchise and the local franchise. But what is abundantly clear is this: that
  988
  these Regulations are only a piece of machinery. Whether we pass them or whether we do not makes no difference whatsoever to any Act which this Parliament has passed, whether it be the Representation of the People Act or the British Nationality Act. We do not in the least affect the validity of those Acts or their interpretation—whatever be the right interpretation—if we refrain from passing these Regulations. Moreover, I do not believe it would be possible (I speak subject to correction) by a different form of Regulation to amend either of those Acts. I suppose that Parliament can do almost anything, but I should think the one limitation upon Parliament is that it cannot do by Regulation something which can be done only by Act of Parliament. Therefore, if it was our desire to amend an Act of Parliament, we could not do so either by refraining from passing these Regulations or by passing a different set of Regulations. That can be done only by an amending Act of Parliament.
  I also want to make my political position perfectly plain as regards these Regulations. I am not going to express an opinion on what I think the law should be, beyond saying this: I am not going to express a legal opinion on the Regulations. It will rest with the courts to decide the legal interpretation of the British Nationality Act. I imagine that the courts will pay no attention to what was presumed to be the intention of Parliament from its debates. They will have to look only at the rather obscure wording of this Act of Parliament. But, speaking for myself and, I should think, for practically every noble Lord in this House, I do say this: that when we passed that Act of Parliament (to which your Lordships will remember I took the strongest possible exception at the time), nobody contemplated that we were passing an Act of Parliament which had anything whatever to do with the Republic of Eire. I am quite certain of that.
  I remember that when I myself advanced arguments dealing with this obscure Irish clause and took exception to it, I was greatly taken to task by the Government spokesman—upon what ground? On the ground that, if we did not accept this clause, and the arrangement enshrined in it, we should be throwing

  989
  away a wonderful opportunity of reconciling Eire to this country and to the Commonwealth. Back went the argument, over decades of time, to the opportunities that had been lost under Mr. Gladstone; we were begged to accept this because it was to be a great and lasting settlement. Of course, it was nothing of the sort. As soon as the Irish election was over, contrary to the expectation of those who approved the Act, the Government of Eire introduced a Bill to establish an independent Republic and to declare themselves upon an appointed day—which will be Easter Monday—an independent Republic, a foreign State entirely outside the British Commonwealth. We certainly did not expect that.
  As I have said, we cannot do anything about it. If I may respectfully say so to him, on behalf of my Party, I entirely reject the implication which the noble Lord, Lord Schuster, has made: that by allowing these Regulations to go through, anybody in this House is giving any assent, express or implied, either to what was done in the British Nationality Act or to the legal interpretation which may be put upon the British Nationality Act—and still less to what may be our attitude when the Republic of Ireland becomes an independent State on Easter Monday, as a result of which, as the Lord Chancellor has said, it will be necessary to introduce new legislation into this House. Upon that, I entirely reserve my position, and the position of those who act with me. It would be quite improper on these Regulations to discuss that position. Nothing that we said to-day could have the least effect upon any new legislation; and nothing we say or do to-day can in the least fetter our judgment or discretion as to what may be the right attitude to adopt on that occasion.
  Speaking, as I do, as the acting Leader of the Opposition, I have thought it necessary to say that—I am sure the Government will agree that that is a perfectly fair political position to take up—so that nobody will seek to argue against noble Lords on this side of the House that we are in any way committed. No political issue arises to-day, although I am extremely glad that the case has been clearly and fairly stated by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon. That is our political position
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  and, that being our political position, I would counsel the House with certainty that it is not committing itself at all by letting these Regulations go through. As the noble and learned Viscount points out to me, we are actually passing these Regulations on April 5, when Ireland is a Dominion; and it cannot be a Republic until the appointed day arrives.
  4.45 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I think the noble Viscount who has just spoken as the acting Leader of the Opposition has taken a perfectly fair point of view. I agree with everything he has said. He is in no way committed to anything by passing these Regulations. I should have thought this, at least, was plain to a first-year student: that, by passing Regulations, you cannot alter or enlarge the scope of an Act of Parliament. The Regulations depend upon and hang from the Act of Parliament and can only carry out the Act of Parliament. If the Regulations have gone further than the Act of Parliament, then the Regulations are bad. I am glad that the Regulations can be tested by a court of law, and we can see presumably which view is right with regard to this matter.
  I say these few words because an attack has been made upon the Government in what I venture to say was a somewhat irresponsible speech of the noble Lord, Lord Schuster, who said that we were in a hurry to dash away and break up the British Empire, and that it was a case of the blind leading the blind. I myself had a good deal to do with this matter. I told your Lordships before, and I say again, that the threatened passage of this Bill, which is, I understand, going to become an Act on April 18, put us in a position of great difficulty. It was a measure which I personally deplored. It is the fact, as we all agree, that at the time when we were discussing the British Nationality Bill, we had no idea that there was going to be such a situation. I myself conducted the negotiations in Paris. I had the great good fortune to be associated with the distinguished statesmen of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Believe me, none of us, from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or even from this country, wanted to break up the British Empire. We wanted to know what was the right and sensible thing to do in

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  these circumstances. It may have been right or it may have been wrong, but we all came to a conclusion, and we took the only sensible course. Had we taken any other course, we should certainly have found ourselves at cross purposes with the other member States who were there represented and who had large Irish populations. Therefore, I repudiate entirely the statement that we were rushing with haste to give away or to break up the British Empire. We were trying sensibly to deal with a very difficult situation which had arisen without our knowledge and against our wishes. So much for that.
  I can understand the point of view of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon. I am bound to say, speaking for myself, that had it not been for the doubt which the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, expressed, I should have thought that this matter was plain beyond argument. That is the view which the Law Officers and the Home Secretary in another place and all our legal advisers have formed. It turns entirely on the construction of the British Nationality Act. In the main, it turns on the construction of the particular section, Section 32, to which reference has been made—I say "in the main" because there are other indications. I think the definition of "foreign country" is
  "a country other than the United Kingdom, a Colony, a country mentioned in subsection (3) of section one of this Act, Eire, a protectorate,"
  and so on. But Section 3 (2), omitting the words which I think are not material for this purpose and substituting some simplified words, reads as follows:
  "…any law which by virtue of any Act of Parliament passed before…."
  the 1st January, 1949
  "comes into force…."
  in the United Kingdom
  "on or after that date, shall…continue to have effect in relation to citizens of Eire who are not British subjects in like manner as it has effect in relation to British subjects."
  I read that, and it has been read by all our advisers, as meaning this: that where there is an Act coming within that category which refers to and uses the phrase "British subject," you must give to that phrase "British subject" the expanded meaning of "British subject or citizen of
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  Eire." That may be right or it may be wrong, but that is the view which we have formed. The noble Viscount has indicated his doubt (which of course I respect) as to the correctness of that view, but so far as I am concerned I adhere to the view which I have expressed as being the correct view, though I am happy to think that the correctness of the view can be tested.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: Would the noble and learned Viscount forgive me for one moment? There is no difficulty in defining an issue, and I quite agree with him that the answer would be that it is a matter to be decided judicially hereafter. But when the phrase "citizen of Eire" is used in the British Nationality Act, surely the issue is: what is the range which it covers? That is the issue, and no reading of any section will alter that. I think my noble friend will agree with me there.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I quite agree that that is the substance of it. And the form of Government which Eire has, the name by which she calls herself, does not alter the fact at all, any more than anyone would doubt that Burma, which used to be a Dominion and has now become an independent country, whatever else she is, remains Burma. I take it that it would be perfectly plain that a person who was a citizen of Burma when Burma was a Dominion would be to-day a citizen of Burma now that Burma is an independent Republic. That is the issue, and it can, of course, be defined in the courts, where they can deal with the matter.
  The noble Viscount, the acting Leader of the Opposition, reminded your Lordships that in the very near future we are to have a Bill dealing with the Irish position—certain consequential alterations have to be made—and when that Bill comes up it will, of course, be perfectly open to any of your Lordships to whom the terms of the Bill are not satisfactory to move Amendments dealing with the whole position. Manifestly, the time to do that is on some Bill and not on a group of Regulations which seek to give effect to what is already in an Act. Therefore, I hope that your Lordships will agree with us in passing these Regulations.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  CONSULAR CONVENTIONS BILL
  4.55 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This small Bill comes to your Lordships' House from another place, where it was unopposed but where one or two improving amendments of detail were made. It is, I hope, an uncontroversial Bill. It is submitted in order to enable His Majesty's Government to ratify the Consular Convention with the United States of America which was signed on February 16 last. It is also hoped to conclude similar Consular Conventions with appropriate foreign countries in the future.
  For a long time now, it has been the practice of other countries to conclude Consular Conventions defining the functions of consuls and also fixing the immunities and privileges which attached to the position of consul. Until the negotiations which have just been concluded with the United States of America, the United Kingdom had stood aside from this practice. The reason was that for many years it was thought that a good deal of domestic legislation would be required to enable the United Kingdom to fulfil the obligations undertaken in such Conventions.
  Just before the Second World War, however, the conclusion was reached, after consultation with the Law Officers of England and Scotland, that in the main the provisions of such a Convention could be carried out in this country, either because they involved obligations which could be carried out by executive action or because the provisions were consistent with the general principles of international law which are recognised by the courts here as part of the law of this country. Accordingly, towards the end of hostilities negotiations were commenced with the United States which have led to the conclusion of the Convention already mentioned.
  It is only in connection with three points of the Convention that the need for legislation arises. As I hope to show, the amendments to the law are small. Moreover, His Majesty's Government
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  are satisfied that the provisions of the Convention which require this legislation are most beneficial in the interests of British consulates abroad and involve, so far as foreign consuls here are concerned, no undesirable innovations in our law.
  Article 18 of the Convention contains provisions regulating the powers and functions of consular officers with regard to the estates of deceased persons when nationals of the consular officer have a beneficial interest as legatees or next of kin in such estates. Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill enable the consul to obtain administration of the estate of a deceased person in circumstances where the consul's nationals would have themselves been entitled to obtain it if they had been present in the country or had been represented there. The consul has this right only if his nationals are not resident in the country and are not able, or do not wish, to take steps to protect their interests by applying for a grant themselves.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: Is that in the Bill? Does the Bill contain words to the effect that the consul can do it if the person named does not want to take action?
  LORD HENDERSON: Those words are taken out of the Convention.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: Yes, but I am looking at the Bill. I beg your pardon for interrupting.
  LORD HENDERSON: The Bill states:
  "…that the said national is not resident in England, and if no application for a grant of such representation is made by a person duly authorised by power of attorney to act for him in that behalf…."
  The consul comes in only in the last resort. Moreover, the court has the full discretion to postpone the making of a grant to a consular officer in order to ascertain if his absent national really prefers that the consul should act for him to taking steps to be individually represented in his own name. That is the proviso. The reason for two clauses, instead of one clause, is that the law of Scotland is different from that of England, and I am advised by the Law Officers for Scotland that, given the difference of the law between the two countries, the effect of the two clauses is mutatis mutandis the same.

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  There are only two further points in connection with Clauses 1 and 2 which, perhaps, require special comment. As subsection (3) of Clause 1 shows, the grant to a foreign consular officer is a grant to the holder of that office—for example, to the United States Consul at Liverpool. Consequently, no new grant is required if the actual individual who occupies the office of United States Consul at Liverpool is changed because he dies, moves to another post or is replaced. Further, his successor succeeds to his liabilities, as well as his rights in respect of the administration. In this connection I may perhaps invite attention to paragraph 6 of Article 18 of the Convention, which shows that whatever immunities the consul may enjoy in respect of his other official acts (for instance, under Article 11) he enjoys no immunities in respect of his administration of estates if he chooses to undertake this burden. Clause 3 of the Bill corresponds to this paragraph 6 of Article 18 of the Convention.
  The second point arises on subsections (4) and (5) of the first clause. Because in these cases administration is being given to the holder of the office of consul, a high officer of a foreign Government, for whose actions his Government have responsibility, the consul is not required, as an unofficial administrator is, to give surety when he signs his administration bond; and he is permitted to administer an estate alone when, unless it happened to be a trust corporation, an ordinary private administrator would have to have at least one colleague.
  I turn now to Clause 4 which provides, subject to safeguards which I will mention in a minute, that the office of a consulate (that is to say the place where the business is carried on, and where the archives, which are inviolable, are kept) shall not be entered without the consent of the consular officer or, if that consent is refused or cannot be obtained, the consent of a Secretary of State. This provision is to carry out paragraph 4 of Article 8 of the Convention. The words in the Convention are: "The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs" and in the Bill "a Secretary of State." Internally, effect would be given to this by the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Scotland, as the case might be, authoris
  996
  ing police to enter, but only after having obtained the concurrence of the Foreign Secretary.
  As your Lordships will see, these consents are not required in certain cases—for instance, in case of fire, or if there is reason to believe that a crime involving violence has been, is being or is about to be committed in the consular office. Nor does it apply where, under the conditions under which the consular building is held, there is some private right by or on behalf of the landlord to inspect the condition of the premises. Further, as subsection (2) shows, this immunity does not apply if the consul in charge of the office is a local citizen or is not a national of the country whom he represents. Further, as subsection (3) shows, the immunity applies only to that part of a building which is exclusively used for consular business.
  While it is perfectly clear in international law that an Embassy building is, so to speak, inviolable, the position of a consular office is less well defined. It is certainly the practice of a great many countries to give an immunity as high as, or higher than, that provided for in Clause 4 to consular offices. But I am advised that it could not be said that the immunity in international law of a consular office is sufficiently definite to enable it to be said with certainty that it forms part of that international law which would be recognised and applied by the courts of this country.
  Hence, Clause 4, which gives a limited and strictly safeguarded immunity, falling far short of that of a foreign Embassy. With the safeguards which the Clause contains, I submit that it should create no undesirable consequences so far as its application in this country is concerned; and I would emphasise that it is a form of protection which is much valued for British consulates abroad.
  I will deal with Clause 5 in a minute. Clause 6 provides for the application of Clauses 1 and 2, on the one hand, and of Clause 4, on the other, to the consuls of foreign States with which a Consular Convention providing for reciprocal treatment for the consulates of His Majesty has been concluded.
  The application is by Order in Council. An Order in Council can be made in respect of a country covering Clauses

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  1 and 2 only, or covering Clause 4 only or covering Clauses 1 and 2 and 4. But Clauses 1 and 2 cannot be applied to a country unless it is giving similar opportunities to British consuls to obtain the administration of estates, and Clause 4 cannot be applied to any country unless it has recognised a similar immunity for British consulates in its territory.
  Clause 5 makes small amendments to two different sections of the Merchant Shipping Act which require no Order in Council for their application and do not require the conclusion of a Convention requiring reciprocity. Subsection (1) empowers the Minister of Transport to deliver to a foreign consular officer money or other property of a deceased seaman when the person for whom the money or property is destined is resident in the State which the foreign consular officer represents. The Minister already has powers, under the Merchant Shipping Act, to pay over to the person who appears to be entitled to it, without a grant of administration, the proceeds of the estate of a deceased seaman which does not exceed £100 in value. This clause merely enables the Minister, when the person who ought to receive the money is resident in a foreign country, to pay it over to the consul of that country in order that the latter may be responsible for seeing that the money reaches its proper destination.
  The second subsection makes an even smaller amendment to the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act relating to foreign wrecked vessels. Already foreign consular officers have certain powers, as ex-officio agents of the absent owners of the articles, who are his nationals, in regard to the custody and disposal of articles coming from a foreign wrecked vessel. The subsection gives the foreign consul the same powers, as regards the wrecked hull itself of a vessel which flies the flag of the consular country. Though, as I have stated, the operation of subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 5 are not dependent on the conclusion of a Consular Convention, nevertheless they are required for the purposes of the fulfilment of the Convention with the United States. Thus, subsection (1) corresponds to Article 27 of the Convention and subsection (2) to Article 25.
  Clause 7 contains merely provisions for the adaptation of the Bill to Northern
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  Ireland, and Clause 8 repeals Section 4 of the Domicile Act of 1861. The Domicile Act of 1861 contained provisions the purpose of which is generally similar to that of Clauses 1 and 2 of the present Bill, but the provisions of the old Act were not, from the practical standpoint, very happily conceived.
  We therefore consider that it would be better and tidier to make no further use of Section 4 of the Domicile Act 1861 but to leave applications of consular officers to be dealt with as provided in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I trust that with that brief, but I hope not unsatisfactory, explanation of the need for, and purposes of, the Bill, the House will feel able to give it a Second Reading.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Henderson.)
  5.10 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, I am sure we are all indebted to the noble Lord for the explanation which he has given us of the contents of this Bill. The explanation was extremely clear, and I think the impression and the hope which he has that the Bill will be given a Second Reading without challenge are likely to be fulfilled. He is dealing with a difficult subject, even though he has his responsibilities at the Foreign Office. My own knowledge of the matter is "rusty", so if I make a mistake I may be forgiven. The noble Lord is quite right when he says that the extent to which a consul or a consular office has immunity is not clearly defined and generally agreed to the same extent to which the rights of an Ambassador or diplomatic Minister are universally recognised.
  Consuls do not enjoy the position of full diplomatic envoys. They have, of course, a special position in the area in which they serve, because it is usually a portion of the country in which they operate as the authorised consul. They are not like the ordinary citizen of a foreign State who finds himself in the country. As law students will remember, they receive from the head of the admitting State what is called an exequatur, which I imagine is Latin for "let him perform" his function. They receive that on presenting to the Foreign Secretary their patent of appointment. Thus they are recognised by the admitting State as the agents of the appointing State. But to what extent in different

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  conditions they enjoy a special immunity is, I know, something not universally agreed, and it may be very proper to make such a Consular Convention as has been negotiated with the United States of America.
  Once or twice in the course of his speech the noble Lord made reference to the relation between international law and our own common law which we recognise and apply in our courts. If one is to refer to that, I think it is necessary to state it accurately. I do not accept the proposition, in the broadest sense, that international law is the law of England. For example, if we negotiate a treaty with a foreign power, let us say a treaty under which we agree that our citizens shall not fish in a certain area, and if none the less one of our citizens does so, I do not think he could be punished. There has been a breach of the international Agreement to that extent, but it is necessary to have a domestic Act of Parliament in order to put the duty upon the citizen. In the same way, I should have thought that it would not be correct to say—perhaps it was not intended to be said—that since by international law the consuls' official premises are regarded as having an immunity from forcible entry, therefore if a policeman obtained a warrant from a magistrate and entered the consular premises, the policeman could be punished. I would not have thought so. No doubt we have agreed as a State with a foreign State that that should not apply; but our business then is to pass an Act of Parliament to make that prohibition effective as against an individual who might act contrary to it. Indeed, unless I have entirely misunderstood it, that is the very object of this Bill. The reason why we are not content with having a Consular Convention with the United States about these matters is because that in itself would not have the effect which this Bill will have.
  For example, Clause 4 says:
  "A consular office of a State to which this section applies shall not be entered by a constable or other person acting in the execution of any warrant…"
  The moment we have enacted that, we apply that which we have arranged with a foreign country in such a way that an individual in this country is bound by it. I agree that this Bill is required. All I wish to say is that this is the sense in
  1000
  which we can say that international law is part of the law of England. Those who from time to time have the business of setting examination papers on these dreary subjects are entitled to propound the conundrum for intelligent students: "Is international law part of the law of England?" A good answer could be written—and a very bad one, too!
  I agree with the Bill. The point about which I feel some anxiety is the provision contained in Clause 6, which contemplates that similar Consular Conventions may be entered into with other countries and, if I follow rightly, may be entered into without any further reference to Parliament. I will not mention any country—that would be most indiscreet—but it is pretty plain that there are some countries in Europe with whom we might hesitate to make a Consular Convention (which is presumably meant to be reciprocal, though I do not see the word "reciprocal" in the Bill), because we are not sure that they will treat our representatives in the same way as we treat theirs. Clause 6 says:
  "His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that sections one and two or section four of this Act shall apply to any foreign State specified in the Order, being a State with which a consular convention providing for matters for which provision is made by those sections has been concluded by His Majesty."
  I am going to assume that that means "with which reciprocal arrangements have been made." I am sure that that is what is meant. We might consider later on whether it would be desirable to bring in such a word as "reciprocal." But manifestly, so far, a Convention can be made according to the judgment of the Government of the day, without any Parliamentary reference whatever. I think nothing but good of His Majesty's Government in this connection. I am sure they would act prudently. But this is an Act for all Governments, whether better or worse than the present one. It gives power by Statute to any Government in this country to make, by Order in Council—which is a purely Executive act which nobody can control—a Consular Convention with any foreign State they think it wise to select.
  It is true that an Order in Council may be rejected under subsection (2) of Clause 6, but the third subsection gives me no comfort at all. It says:

  1001
  "Any Order in Council made under this section shall be laid before Parliament after being made."
  That is merely for information. It does not say that Parliament has any control over it; it merely says that it shall not be done without Members of Parliament knowing it is done. Though I do not for a moment ask the noble Lord to make any statement now, I suggest that we ought to consider, before passing this Bill, whether there ought not to be to a greater extent than is at present in the Bill some Parliamentary check on the spread of this scheme to other foreign countries as yet unnamed. That is something which occurred to me on reading the Bill, and I do not seek to do more than mention it to-day.
  For the rest, I think the Bill is a good Bill. It was considerably improved in the course of its handling in the other place—because, I may say, of some questions and difficulties raised by Opposition speakers. I apologise to my noble friend opposite for having interrupted his statement, but it illustrates what I mean. As the Foreign Office introduced the Bill in another place, there was nothing in it to prevent a consular officer who finds that there is property in this country to be dealt with, because of the owner's death and because the executor named does not reside here, jumping in and taking charge of the business without a reasonable interval being allowed. As things are now I should think that that would work all right, because, of course, our own courts would take care that this—which the noble Lord described as a method to be used only in the last resort—was not rushed. Therefore, even though a man does remain abroad, he will have an opportunity, if he prefers, of himself acting as indeed the testator desired he should act.
  There are one or two other points which will have to be raised—I know that, because I have had a conversation with my noble friend Lord Perth. I do not wish to anticipate what he is going to say. He has a great knowledge of this subject, having been for so many years an Ambassador, and, as such, having under his supervision and control the consuls in the countries to which he was accredited. He has some points to make and, therefore, I merely say, for my part, that I have no doubt that we
  1002
  ought to give this Bill a Second Reading, and I am obliged to the noble Lord opposite for the way in which he has explained it.
  5.22 p.m.
  THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am glad the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading has made it clear that the primary object of this Bill is to allow the Government, once the Bill has become law, to advise His Majesty that the Convention which was signed in February with the United States of America can properly be ratified. The Bill is a much shorter document than the Convention itself. The reason for that is clear, as the noble Lord explained. A great many of the clauses of the Convention can be brought into force by executive action but, as was pointed out, legislation has been required on three points in the Convention. The first two enable the consular officer in certain cases to administer the estate of a deceased person, and to represent the beneficiary of that estate; the second is to make certain rather small changes in the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894; and the third is in regard to the immunities and privileges of consular officers. The first two points are of a very technical character, and are mainly of a legal nature. I do not propose to venture into those. The few remarks I desire to make will be concentrated solely on the question of immunities and privileges.
  As in the case of diplomatic privileges and immunities, the immunities and privileges of consular officers are in essence based on reciprocity. In the case of diplomatic immunities and privileges the practice is fairly clearly set out in the various textbooks. But, that is not the case in regard to the privileges and immunities of consular officers, which are left extremely vague. In the Convention these privileges and immunities are set out. If I may say so, they seem to me to express admirably what the practice should be between two extremely friendly countries who wish to adopt the policy of the good neighbour. From that point of view, I welcome the Bill and the Convention. I want to be assured, however, that should we conclude Consular Conventions with other countries, such Conventions will not necessarily embrace all the provisions in the Convention to which I have just alluded. To put it another

  1003
  way, I hope that such Consular Conventions will not necessarily conform completely to what I may call this admirable model, but may be open to modification so that account can be taken of all the existing circumstances. If I receive such an assurance I shall be much happier.
  I seek that assurance because it seems to me that in certain cases we might be better off under the existing practice than if we concluded a Consular Convention. I will take Clause 4, which to my mind constitutes the main provision. Broadly speaking, under that clause a consular office is not to be entered by the police, except with the consent of the consular officer; or, if that is not obtainable or is withheld, the consent of a Secretary of State is required before entry can be made. Let me take an example of a country with whom we have a Consular Convention on these lines, and which wanted the police to take precipitate action and make an entry into the consular office. The police could, surely, proceed to the consulate with a provisional authority from the Minister of the Interior, or whoever corresponds to the Secretary of State, already made out in case of refusal by the consul to allow admission. The consul refuses, the police produce the authority, they enter and the whole matter is completed. In that event the consul has had no time whatever to appeal, either to his diplomat, who exercises general supervision, or to his Government, and yet the letter of the Convention has been observed. For that reason, I feel we should be very careful in regard to the countries with whom we conclude Consular Conventions in the future.
  That brings me to my last point. I have referred to the diplomatic head of the Mission who exercises a general superintendence over the consuls in the country to which he is accredited; but there is no mention made of him either in the Bill or in the Convention. Frankly, that seems to me to be rather odd. It may have been thought, of course, that if a consular officer into whose consulate the police demand entry refuses that entry, he will then be able to, and would naturally, communicate with the diplomatic head of the Mission. I feel, however, that something more explicit than that is required. I realise that it is too late to make any change in the text of the
  1004
  Convention with the United States; but, as I say, I think something more is necessary. Let me give an example of the sort of thing that might happen. Let us suppose that when I was His Majesty's Ambassador in Rome, the Italian police (I am assuming that a Convention had been concluded) had demanded entry into the consulate in Milan, that the consul had refused entry, and that the entry took place on the authorisation of the Italian Minister of the Interior. If I had been neither informed nor consulted by the Italian Government, I should have been very angry, and would have sent in a very strong protest which I should have expected to be completely backed up by His Majesty's Government. Yet the Italian Government, acting thus, would have been complying strictly with the letter of the Consular Convention.
  I do not think such a situation ought to be allowed to arise, and I hope very much that something will be done to remedy it. Obviously, I do not ask for an immediate reply from the noble Lord, but I hope that he will give it further consideration, because I think the matter is of some importance. It may be of great importance to His Majesty's Ambassadors in their various posts, and I think that perhaps it may have escaped the notice of the draftsman. Apart from those observations, I welcome the Bill as a whole. I do not want to enter into this very difficult controversy about Clause 6. I am torn between two opinions. I would hate to interfere with what is known as the Royal Prerogative of Treaty-making, and whether or not Parliament should have the right to give approval to a treaty before it is ratified. It is a very difficult problem, but I am glad the noble and learned Viscount raised it, because it gives us all a great deal to think about.
  5.32 p.m.
  LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I am very grateful for the friendly reception which has been accorded to the Bill, and for the knowledge which I now have that the Bill is to get a Second Reading. There are one or two points to which I might make brief reference. The noble and learned Viscount assumed—if I may say so, quite rightly—that this is on a reciprocal basis, and the basis of reciprocity is, of course, provided for in the Convention.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: It is not in the Bill.
  LORD HENDERSON: The Convention gives the reciprocity and the Bill merely provides new powers which are not already in existing law. The noble Viscount also raised a query about Parliamentary check on new Conventions. I think I am able to claim that the way in which the Government is handling this Bill and the Convention is in accordance with historical practice carried on by many Governments. The point which the noble Viscount and the noble Earl had in mind was the question of new Conventions. At the moment, there are only two Conventions for which we hope to conclude negotiations in a very short while, and that is with France and Egypt. But I can assure the House that it is not the purpose of the Government to conclude such Conventions except in the case of countries with whom there are cordial relations.
  The point has been raised as to what would be the position of a Consular Convention with a country with whom those good relations subsequently deteriorated. We hope, of course, that those circumstances will not arise, but if such cases did occur, the appropriate course might be to terminate the Convention and to revoke the Orders in Council. Such action, if required, would be possible, since it is not proposed to include in any new Convention any provision that the Convention shall necessarily continue in force for a specified number of years. There will no doubt be a provision requiring a prescribed period of notice to be given to terminate the Convention, and this provision could be invoked by the Government when occasion arose. I suggest to your Lordships that that provides adequate protection against Consular Conventions being concluded or continued with countries with whom it might be undesirable to have such Conventions. However, the noble Viscount has made the point, and naturally I will take it back and have it considered.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: That is all I ask.
  LORD HENDERSON: Of course, the Convention between this country and America will not necessarily be the text
  1006
  for other Conventions. I can give your Lordships an assurance that any new Convention with any country will obviously take into account all the circumstances. The noble Earl raised the question of the omission to inform the head of diplomatic missions in the event of the application of Clause 4. I have made a note of that suggestion, and no doubt it will be considered in relation to the text of other Conventions. I think those were the main points which were raised, and I hope that following upon those few remarks your Lordships will give a Second Reading to this Bill.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to Committee of the Whole House.

  LANDS TRIBUNAL BILL
  5.35 p.m.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill, which is purely a machinery Bill, shall be read a second time. It is a Bill which was welcomed by all political Parties in another place, and I believe it raises no controversial issues whatever. It is designed to strengthen and unify the statutory arrangements for settling disputes in regard to the valuation of land. Your Lordships will know that at the present time disputes of this kind are generally referred to one of the official arbitrators appointed under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919. These arbitrators are whole-time surveyors of high professional standing, and they are appointed by a Reference Committee which consists, in England, of the Lord Chief Justice, the Master of the Rolls and the President of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. In Scotland, the Reference Committee consists of the Lord President of the Court of Session, the Lord Justice Clerk and the Chairman of the Scottish Branch of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. At present, the arbiters in Scotland are on a part-time basis.
  This system of arbitration was regarded as a striking innovation when it was introduced thirty years ago, and it has certainly served the country well. The Government propose in this Bill to bring the system to an end in its present form,

  1007
  but I think all of us who have had experience of its working would desire to pay tribute to the ability with which a succession of skilful arbitrators have discharged their difficult duties. I think we ought also to express our appreciation of the wise guidance which has been given by the Reference Committee, who have had the duty not only of appointing arbitrators but also of making the rules governing the procedure before them. I thought it right, therefore, before the Bill was introduced, to discuss the Government's proposals confidentially with the present members of the Reference Committee of England and Wales, just as the Secretary of State for Scotland has discussed these proposals with the members of the Reference Committee in Scotland. I am glad to be able to say that those high authorities are in general agreement with the proposals which we have in mind.
  The reasons for a change are quite simple. The official arbitrators are specially qualified in matters of valuation, but they are not lawyers. Disputes on questions of law can be referred to the High Court by way of stated case, and this arrangement has hitherto been generally satisfactory, though it has sometimes been felt a disadvantage that there are no regular arrangements for providing the arbitrators with legal advice or assistance or for co-ordinating their decisions. But the whole basis of the code which they have to administer has been radically changed by the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, which introduced the conception of existing use value, and with it a number of very complex provisions which may often, in particular cases, raise questions of the most acute legal difficulty.
  These legal questions may arise in relation to compensation for compulsory acquisition of land and in adjustments of claims against the £300,000,000 provided under the Act for loss of development value, and a number of other matters. It is much better, and probably cheaper for both parties, if questions of this kind can be considered in the first instance by a legally qualified Tribunal, instead of by a surveyor, from whom an authoritative view of the law can hardly be expected. Much the same position arose in relation to valuations for war damage purposes, and in 1945 Parliament decided to set up
  1008
  a special tribunal for that purpose, known as the War Damage Valuation Appeals Panel—I forget whether I or the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, set it up. It was a Panel which consisted partly of lawyers and partly of surveyors. That arrangement has worked very well and the Bill follows it closely. The official arbitrators are not the only authorities who have to determine disputes on land valuation. There are the Referees appointed under the Finance Act of 1910 to consider valuations for estate duty purposes. As I have said, there is the War Damage Valuation Appeals Panel; and there are a number of others.
  What the proposal amounts to, therefore, is this. We propose to set up a Lands Tribunal consisting both of surveyors and of lawyers, under a legal President of high standing. The members are to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor. The Tribunal will exercise the whole of the existing jurisdiction of the official arbitrators and of the Estate Duty Referees; and in Clause 4 there is power by Order in Council to transfer the jurisdiction of other authorities from time to time. Our aim is to ensure that in all these interrelated matters a single and consistent jurisdiction is provided. We should, I feel sure, attach the greatest importance to keeping the procedure as simple as possible. The jurisdiction of the official arbitrators arises under a large number of Statutes, and covers an extraordinarily wide range. Some of the matters are quite trivial, but some, of course, are important. We do not want to face claimants with the necessity of going before a formidable legal body with minor disputes of the kind which have hitherto been heard, quite informally and cheaply, by the arbitrators. The Bill, therefore, provides for complete elasticity in the constitution of the Tribunal. The President of the Tribunal will have to decide how each case is to be heard. If there should be an important legal question, he will probably sit himself, with one or more of his colleagues; but a minor valuation dispute, raising no legal points, will be assigned to a surveyor sitting alone, as at present. The present powers of the official arbitrators to tax costs and disallow the cost of counsel are preserved to the Tribunal.
  I do not think I need trouble your Lordships with any technical details. We must, if necessary, go through them on

  1009
  the Committee stage. I will run briefly through the main Clauses. Clause 1 constitutes the Tribunal and transfers to it the jurisdiction of the official arbitrators and the Estate Duty Referees. Clause 2 deals with the appointment and remuneration of the members of the Tribunal and their officers. We mean to do our best to secure the services of first-class men, both from the legal and from the surveyors' profession, and we have taken power for the first time to pay pensions. I suspect that I am not the first Lord Chancellor, and shah by no means be the last, to be asked to provide first-rate practitioners of great experience and eminence, and yet to be told that I may pay them only a wholly inadequate salary. But, at any rate, this Bill sets a useful precedent.
  Clause 3 deals with the procedure of the Tribunal, including its varying constitution for different cases, on the lines I have explained. It empowers the Lord Chancellor to make procedural rules, and it enables points of law to be taken, if necessary, right up to the House of Lords. This change was recommended by the Uthwatt Committee, and the legislation passed since then has strengthened the case for it. Under the present law the arbitrator states a case to the High Court, whose decision is final. When we drafted the Bill, we provided for appeals to go from the High Court to the Court of Appeal and thence to the House of Lords. On reflection, we thought that four stages would be unnecessary, and it was on the suggestion of the Lord Chief Justice that we amended the Bill so that stated cases will go from the Tribunal straight to the Court of Appeal and thence, by leave, to the House of Lords.
  Clause 4 enables the functions of any other statutory tribunal dealing with the same sort of subject matter to be transferred by Order in Council to the Lands Tribunal, but it specifically forbids the transfer of any of the functions of a court of law. The remaining clauses deal with minor and procedural matters; and Clause 10, as your Lordships will see, provides for the Bill to come into operation on an appointed day. This is because it cannot begin to work until I have had time to appoint the Tribunal and make rules under the powers conferred by the Bill. We mean to make the necessary preparations in good time,
  1010
  however, and to bring the measure into force as soon as possible after the Royal Assent—and, in particular, in time for the Tribunal to be in the saddle when disputes about claims against the £300,000,000 begin to come forward. Your Lordships will remember that these claims have to be submitted to the Central Land Board not later than June 30 next.
  I ought to say a special word about Scotland. There will be a separate Lands Tribunal for Scotland, where the Lord President of the Court of Session will be both the appointing authority and also the rule-making authority, and the Secretary of State will pay the salaries and expenses of the Tribunal. There is power in Clause 10 to appoint a different day for bringing the Bill into operation in Scotland. The Secretary of State, after consultation with the Lord President of the Court of Session, is not satisfied that there will be in the immediate future a sufficient volume of work to justify the establishment of the new Tribunal. Initially, therefore, it is proposed in Scotland to retain the present system of arbitration, under the Act of 1919, but to arrange for the appointment of a legal assessor to assist the arbiters in dealing with cases in which complicated legal issues arise. It is also in mind that at an early date it may become necessary to appoint a full-time arbiter in Scotland under the present law, in place of the panel of part-time arbiters and, in this way, even in advance of the coming into force of the new Bill, to secure the uniformity of practice which it is one of the aims of the Bill to bring about.
  Your Lordships will see that this Bill in no way affects the code or codes which are to be administered by the Lands Tribunal; still less has it any effect on the Land Court. It confines itself entirely to machinery and procedure. Though not spectacular, I believe that it will be useful. I believe it will produce a more compact and tidy system than the present one, and will provide a more efficient way of settling difficult points of law arising from recent legislation without disturbing the well-tried procedure under which minor matters can be disposed of quickly and cheaply. We expect that the Tribunal will be able to build up an authoritative and co-ordinated case law in land valuation, which will tend, after the initial stages,

  1011
  to reduce the number of disputes. I am confident that the Bill will be generally welcome, not only to Government Departments, local authorities and statutory undertakers but also to individual claimants. I beg to move.
  Moved that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, I think I can safely assure the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that the House will give a Second Reading to this Bill. I will not myself do more than repeat in a sentence what is the nature of the Bill. As the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has explained to us, this is a Bill primarily concerned with creating a new Tribunal, but the principles upon which the Tribunal are to act and the rules which must be observed in reaching a figure of valuation are not in the least altered. There is only one regret which I feel, and it is that the Bill does not go further than its present text provides. This is in connection with the admittedly very complicated subjects dealt with in the Town and Country Planning Act of 1947. In that Act there are two sections to which I would refer in a sentence or two. One is Section 60 and the other is Section 70.
  Section 60 is the section which provides for dealing with the claims, which must be put forward very shortly now, for a share of this global sum of £300,000,000 which is to be scrambled for. The provision in the Act of 1947 was that the claims should be dealt with by the Central Land Board, and this Bill, I think very properly, says: "No, not the Central Land Board, but this new Lands Tribunal." That, your Lordships will find, is the provision in Clause 1, subsection (3), paragraph (d), at the middle of page 2:
  "any dispute arising in relation to the determination of the development values of interests in land by the Central Land Board or other authority prescribed under section sixty of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947."
  So far as that goes, I think it is very good. I think there is no appeal from the Central Land Board. They simply decide it and the decision is taken from them. But, if there is a matter as complicated as that to which the Lord
  1012
  Chancellor has just referred, it is plainly right that there should be a tribunal which contains the sort of assistance which a well selected, legally-trained mind can give when exercising a judicial function. I think that the Lord Chancellor has abundantly justified that change.
  But what is a little surprising to me is that, when one turns to Section 70 of the Town and Country Planning Act, one finds there a provision which in some respects seems in the same line of country, but in which there is no transfer at all to this new and highly qualified Tribunal. Section 70 is concerned, not with the distribution of the £300,000,000, but with the determination of the development charge. Section 60 deals with the loss of development value; Section 70 deals with the determination of development charge. I do not profess to speak on this subject with anything like the close knowledge of it which some members of this House have, but I have a strong impression that, since this Act was passed, many people have been greatly surprised, and some of them quite horrified, at the development charge put upon them under Section 70. That is a decision which is made, and is to continue to be made, by this very Central Land Board which is disestablished as regards Section 60, but is to remain in full force and vigour in Section 70.
  After all, what is the development charge? If I understand it rightly, it is measured by contrasting the benefit of ownership of land with planning permission, with the benefit of similar land in similar ownership without planning permission. The Lord Chancellor is abundantly justified in saying that the Town and Country Planning Act contains some very complicated conundrums. I should have thought there was hardly any conundrum more difficult than that, but I have no doubt everybody tries to answer it fairly. I should have thought that there were people who felt rather strongly that that also was a matter which could properly, without any change as to the proper way of doing it, be transferred to this highly qualified body which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack commends to us and which I am certain will be selected by him and by all concerned with the greatest skill and impartiality. But as things are, if I

  1013
  follow them rightly, you create this new Lands Tribunal in order to deal more efficiently and with greater wisdom and accuracy with the question, "How much of that £300,000,000 am I going to get?"; but you refuse to allow it to deal with at least as complicated and difficult a question—namely, the determination of development charge. I do not mention this point with any idea of opposing a Second Reading, but I hope I may be excused, even at this hour, for pointing to it as a consideration which some of us might reflect upon between now and Committee stage.
  I am glad to think that that is all I have to say this afternoon. We started with the simple conundrum: What is a citizen of Eire? Passing from that very easy question, we moved on to the question: What are the privileges of consuls in international law? At last I have got as far as Section 70 of the Town and Country Planning Act of 1947. In my concluding sentence to your Lordships, I have to confess that I think that is the most difficult question of the three.
  5.57 p.m.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, as a mere layman, I rise with great trepidation indeed to put two Scottish points. The first relates to the Land Court, and the second to the position of sheriffs in Scotland. I do not propose to follow them up at this stage, because the proper time to do so is in Committee. If I may mention them now, however, it will give the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor time to look into them, if he so wishes. The Lord Chancellor has stated that the position of the Scottish Land Court will not be affected, but I confess that I have some doubt about the wording of Clause 1. I propose, before the Committee stage, to put down an Amendment at the end of subsection (3) of Clause 1, in order to make it quite plain that the functions of the Land Court will not be interfered with. It may well be that that Amendment will be unnecessary, but I should like to have it further discussed at the appropriate time. As your Lordships are aware, in the crofting counties in the North of Scotland, the Scottish Land Court has a unique position, and questions between landowners and crofters are settled by this Court, with acceptance to both parties. Naturally, we are anxious that
  1014
  the work of the Land Court should not in any way be infringed.
  My second point relates to the sheriffs. It is the practice in Scotland, in a large number of Private Acts, for the parties deliberately to select the sheriff to decide such disputes. It seems to me that under Clause 4 it would be possible for the sheriff to be set aside, or rather for the adoption of the new type of arbitration to be made compulsory. Here again, I would follow the matter up in Committee rather than now, but I would ask if it will still be possible to select the sheriff for the form of arbitration which arises under any Private Acts. Those are the only points I wish to raise, and I hope that the passage of the Bill will be facilitated.
  6.0 p.m.
  VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, as representing the owners of agricultural land perhaps I may be allowed to offer a warm welcome to this Bill. I am a little inquisitive, bearing in mind the wide range of subjects that are likely to come under the consideration of the Tribunal, as to how many persons it is contemplated to appoint to the Tribunal, because it seems to me that the various appointees may have to be sitting in various parts of the country for quite a considerable time and in very considerable numbers. But upon that point no doubt the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has to some extent already made up his mind.
  I could not help feeling a little amused when my noble and learned friend Lord Simon asked, rather significantly, "What is the development charge?" I may say that those who are interested in agricultural land are very anxious to have a reply to that question. I hope that at no distant date we may be given some clearer idea as to what the development charge is, and, having had it defined so far as possible, to obtain a rough idea as to the true value of land as a subject of negotiation between vendor and purchaser at the present time.
  If I may venture to say so, we in this country are in a very nebulous mental condition as to what is the value of anything—more particularly in regard to the value of real property. It is quite obvious that until there is greater clarity of governmental view and decision upon this subject, the actual land transactions will be considerably held up for an indefinite

  1015
  time. For my part, I welcome especially the last words which fell from the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, when he said it was hoped to build up an authoritative case law on land valuation. That is very badly needed. What is disturbing some of us at the present time is the quite different bases of assessment adopted both by district valuers and others acting on behalf of county councils and other public bodies within a county and also as between different counties. It is extremely difficult for some of us who seek to sell land for public or other purposes to find, when we confess that we are prepared to leave the matter of valuation to the district valuer or other Government valuer, that the valuations made are difficult to justify and apparently lack any sound basis, at any rate for purposes of comparison.
  Speaking, if I may, as one who has had to do with land and with the ownership of land for certainly more than half a century, I very much welcome Clause 4. It seems to adumbrate what is described as uniformity of decision in regard to the valuation of land and, further, the economic use of the services of those who have experience in the valuation of land. Those who have had to employ valuers in days gone by—many of them relatively poor people—have often found themselves having to pay what appears to them to be an unsatisfactory fee, considering the value of the land, to those who are expert in the matter of valuation. With those few words I am glad to give a warm welcome to the Second Reading of this Bill, reserving to myself the possibility of studying carefully any Amendments that may be proposed.
  6.5 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I desire to intervene for only one moment, to say how very much I welcome the intervention of the two noble Lords opposite on the points which they have raised, and I look forward with great interest to hearing from the Lord Chancellor the reason why this Tribunal should not have jurisdiction in respect of Section 70, as well as Section 60, of the Town and Country Planning Act. At first sight it would appear to be a great advantage if that jurisdiction could be given to the Tribunal. I say that for
  1016
  this reason: that, since the Town and Country Planning Act began to come into operation there have come to my notice cases where a development charge has been fixed in respect of certain sites in London—I am thinking in particular of some very important bombed sites which are now available for redevelopment; and of course the whole question of redevelopment is bound up with what development charge is to be levied.
  In the cases I have in mind, the development charge has been fixed, as my noble friend Lord Bledisloe has said, by the district valuer—and I believe there is no appeal from the decision of the district valuer. The district valuer has refused to explain the basis on which he arrived at his charge. That seems to me to be a very unsatisfactory position, and if the suggestion of the noble and learned Viscount opposite could be adopted—namely, that jurisdiction over development charges should also be transferred to this new Tribunal—it would seem an admirable proposal. Of course, it also fits in extremely well with the point made by my noble friend Lord Bledisloe on the question of uniformity of decision. There can be no more important field in which uniformity of decision is desirable than in fixing these development charges, particularly on these tremendously valuable sites that are now available for redevelopment in the City of London and elsewhere.
  6.8 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am very grateful to your Lordships for the cordial welcome which you have given to this Bill. With regard to certain of the points, and particularly those relating to Scotland, I will, if I may, look into them and be prepared to discuss them with the noble Lord before we get to the Committee stage and, of course, if necessary, on Committee stage. As to the Scottish point about the valuation of land, ordinarily I like notice of such questions, and I am glad that the noble Lord has given it to me. With regard to the point raised about Sections 60 and 70, I will of course convey to my colleagues the opinions expressed by your Lordships, but I am bound to make it plain that I have little doubt as to what the answer I shall get will be.
  This Bill is not designed to give the right to an appeal where there is no

  1017
  appeal to-day. Your Lordships will remember that when we discussed the Town and Country Planning Bill (upon which I am afraid I had a good deal to say), one of the topics upon which we had a keen controversy was whether there should be a right of appeal in regard to the fixation of the development charge. You will remember that this House divided on that question, and your Lordships inserted an Amendment granting such an appeal. You will also remember that in another place they did not like our Amendment and they struck it out, and restored the position to one where there was no appeal, and that this House then assented to that alteration. That was one of the great political battles on the Town and Country Planning Act of 1947 which stand out in my memory. It would, indeed, be rash of me to introduce this little Bill to your Lordships if it were going to rip up all that controversy and re-open again the whole question as to whether or not there should be an appeal from the fixation of the development charge. So, as I have said, I will convey to my colleagues the opinions which your Lordships have expressed, but I am bound to say that I do not think it is in the least likely that the battle which we fought in 1947 will be conceded at this stage.
  I am afraid I have not looked at the Act but I have a pretty fair memory of it, and Section 60, if I remember rightly, dealt with the Fund of £300,000,000. So far as Section 60 is concerned, I think I am correct in saying that the assessment was made by the Central Land Board, and if there were a dispute with regard to the assessment, it went, under Section 60, to the Official Arbitrator. Under this Bill, the Central Land Board will still assess, but a dispute, if dispute there be, instead of going to the Official Arbitrator goes to this Tribunal. That is the only difference which is made there, and that, I think, is right and usual.
  I am grateful to your Lordships for what you have said, and I wish I could say something definite regarding the personnel of these Tribunals. I was considering this very morning what I could say about the number of people whom I shall have to appoint. But I would rather not say anything on that subject at the present moment. If I did so, I think it would be a mere guess. I remember this
  1018
  trouble arising with regard to War Damage appeals. Finally, I managed to keep to a very small number of people. I had thought at one time that I should have to appoint a vast army of people up and down the country to deal with it, but, lo and behold! all the cases seemed to get settled, there was very little to do, and so no great number of people was required. I hope I shall have the same sort of experience in this connection, but I think that solvitur ambulando is the answer which I must give at the present time. I shall certainly keep the numbers down so far as I possibly can, so that I may secure homogeneity and uniformity of decision. But, of course, I cannot have the lieges kept waiting interminably to have their rights adjusted, just because have not enough eminent people to do the work. I am afraid that, at the present moment, I cannot further answer this question, or, shall I say, "rise to the fly" which the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, threw over me. As I have said, I am grateful for the assistance which your Lordships have given me. And may I hope that we shall come fairly soon to the Committee stage of this Bill?
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL
  6.14 p.m.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  AGRICULTURAL MARKETING BELL
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
  WANDSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
  JURIES BILL
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  SERVICE OFFICERS' TRAVEL WARRANTS
  SERVICE OFFICERS' TRAVEL WARRANTS