Sitting of 22 September 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o' Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

KING'S SPEECH (ANSWER TO ADDRESS)
THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Mr. POPPLEWELL) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present session of Parliament

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MALAYA

    Situation
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the present situation in Malaya.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): I shall with your permission, Mr. Speaker, be making a statement on the situation in Malaya after Questions.

    Cocoanut Oil (Sales to Russia)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how much cocoanut oil has been sold to Russia from Malaya, either directly or by trans-shipment through the United Kingdom during the past 12 months; what is its value; and why these fats have not been bought for this country.
    Mr. Creech Jones: In the past twelve months, 150 tons of cocoanut oil have been shipped direct to Russia from the Federation of Malaya and about 1,000 tons through Singapore. The total value was about £170,000. With regard to the third part of the Question, 50 per cent. of
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    Malaya's cocoanut oil exports became free from destinational control early this year, and as the prices paid for these free exports were much higher than the price offered by the Ministry of Food no purchases were made for the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Gammnans: Would it not be better if these surplus fats were bought for this country rather than that they should go to Russia? What more valuable export to this country could we have at this moment than fats?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I thought this policy was consistent with the hon. Member's policy of removing controls.
    Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it might be a good plan if there could be a technical hitch in any further export of these fats and oils to the Soviet Union?

    Arrested Persons
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many trade union officials have been arrested in Malaya.
    Mr. Creech Jones: One hundred and eighty-five trade union officers in the Federation of Malaya have been arrested arising from their association with the insurgents.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is not it an intolerable situation for a Labour Government built up by the trade union movement of this country now to be engaged in arresting trade union leaders in defence of tin and rubber monopolies?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Many of these people who have been actively associated with the recent trouble had left their positions in the trade unions in order to play their parts with the insurgents.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that attempts are being made to impress upon the people that this Labour Government are putting into prison members of the trade union movement because they are trade unionists, and will he make it clear that we are not putting men into prison because they are trade unionists, but because they have broken the law, and that this Government are encouraging the development of the trade union movement in Malaya for all they are worth?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I can give my hon. Friend a most emphatic assurance on that point.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the Minister look up the records when he will see that, wherever trade unionists were attacked or arrested in this country, the Tories always said that it was not because they were trade unionists, but because they had committed a breach of the law?

    Armed Forces
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total number of the British Armed Forces and armed special police now in operation in Malaya; what is the estimate of the number of men in the guerilla forces; and what is the cost of the operation against them to date.
    Mr. Creech Jones: It is not in the public interest to give the number of British Armed Forces in Malaya. Seventeen thousand special constables have been enrolled in the Federation. Estimates of the number of terrorists vary between three and five thousand. No estimate is yet available of the cost of operations to date.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that exactly the same accusations are being made against the Malayans as were made against the Irish, is there any proposition for adding the Black and Tans to what is now going on in Malaya; further, I would ask whether the right hon. Gentleman or the Leader of the House, if they were of military age, would go to Malaya?
    Mr. Creech Jones: No accusation is being made against Malaya. The Government of Malaya are merely concerned with the simple problem of the protection of the life and property of the people there.
    Mr. McGovern: Can the Minister tell us how many British citizens have been murdered in Malaya and how many others have been murdered by these alleged trade union leaders; also, has he any information of the number of social democrats and trade union leaders who were arrested and put to death in the occupied countries by Russia?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I hope to include some figures in the statement which I shall make at the end of Questions.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the Minister's statement that our troops are in Malaya to protect life and property, has he any information about the report published in the "Observer" of last Sunday in which the police are reported to have burned down a native village as a reprisal?

    Air Attacks
    Mr. EmrysHughes asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent bombing has been conducted in Malaya; and what is the number of civilian casualties.
    Mr. CreechJones: Air attacks have been made against terrorist headquarters, camps and sites where terrorists are known to be hiding. Special precautions are taken to ensure accuracy in these attacks and no casualties to the ordinary civilian population have been reported.
    Mr. Hughes: Will the Minister bear in mind that the bombing of any country results in the civil population turning against the people who bomb, and does not he think that this is likely to endanger the lives of our people in Malaya?
    Mr. Creech Jones: So far, no.

    Cost of Living
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will publish figures in connection with Malaya showing the increased cost of living as compared with the increase of wages to native workers.
    Mr. Creech Jones: It is officially estimated that the cost of living in Malaya, which has fallen lately, still shows an increase of over 300 per cent. since 1939. The extent to which that rise has been offset by increases in wages varies in different occupations, and I am asking for more recent figures than those in my possession. I will send them to the hon. Member when received.
    Mr. Piratin: Can the Minister say whether there is any comparison between the increase of wages and the increase in the cost of living?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I can say that the wages of workers in the Malayan rubber industry have more than kept up with the cost of living during the past 19 months. The last increase in wages was on 1st April, 1948.
    Mr. Piratin: Can the Minister give the figures so that the House can judge for itself whether the wages have gone up by 300 per cent. as has the cost of living?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes. It is my intention to provide the figures as soon as I get the, most up-to-date ones.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that before the war labourers on plantations were paid half a dollar a day and they are now receiving a dollar and a half, which means that their wages have risen to three times the former amount?

    Insurance Risks
    Mr, William Teelingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the announcement made by Mr. Malcolm MacDonald that parts of Malaya were in a state of insurrection; whether he is aware that if the Government consider this to be so then insurance companies are no longer liable in those parts of Malaya; and what steps he intends to take as a result to cover the risks in transport of rubber, etc., through those States.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement on Malaya which I will make at the end of Question time.

    Insurgents (Casualties)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Malayan insurgents have been killed; and how many of this number were trade union officials.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The number of insurgents killed in Malaya up to 20th September was 158. It is not known how many of these were trade union officials.
    Mr. Piratin: Would the Minister care to make inquiries into the number of trade union officials who have been killed above the number which he mentioned, when he will find that the cause for which they are fighting is the same as that for which they joined the movement?

  WEST INDIES

    Passenger Shipping
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the concern felt in the West
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    Indies at the present unsatisfactory state of passenger shipping to and from the islands; and what steps he proposes to take to improve the position before the gap is filled by foreign competitors.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir. I am aware that the present passenger facilities between this country and the West Indies are in many respects inadequate. The shipping needs on this route have been under consideration by the Commonwealth Shipping Committee, and I understand that their report may be expected shortly. The answer to the second part of the Question is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Transport, with whom I am in touch.
    Mr. Gammans: Would the right hon. Gentleman make a statement, not so much on the provision of shipping facilities from this country to the West Indies, but on the provision of shipping between the various West Indian territories themselves?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That problem is under constant consideration, but apart from that, it is being dealt with again by the Caribbean Commission at its meeting in the course of a few weeks.
    Commander Noble: Has the Minister asked his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War to cut his requirements down to the minimum?

    Curphey Commission, Jamaica
    General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a Commission known as the Curphey Commission was appointed in Jamaica in 1946 to inquire into the conditions of the lands allotted to ex-Service men of the first World War on demobilisation and since occupied by them; and when the report of this Commission, which is understood to have been in the hands of the Government of Jamaica for some months, is likely to be published.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am again consulting the 'Governor on the subject. I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Member as soon as I have received his reply.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is said in Jamaica that the real reason why this

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    Commission's Report is not being published is because it recommends the expenditure of a substantial sum in addition to the ex-Service men's claim, and will he ascertain whether that is the case?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir. I will look into that point, but it is a matter, of course, within the range of the responsibilities of the Government of Jamaica itself.

    Caura Dam, Trinidad
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total sum so far expended on the Caura Dam in Trinidad; whether it is proposed to complete the dam; and whether he is satisfied that this project has been satisfactorily handled by the Government of Trinidad.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Approximately £686,250 has been spent on the construction of the dam and on the acquisition of the site. The Trinidad Government have arranged for their Consulting Engineers to visit the Colony to report on all aspects of the position regarding the Caura Dam.
    Mr. Hynd: is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable feeling in Trinidad about this project, and particularly about its finances? Will he expedite these inquiries?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am getting further information in regard to it.

    GOLD COAST (DETAINED PERSONS)
    Mr. Frank Byersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has now considered the passage in the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the disturbances on the Gold Coast in which the Commission emphatically condemn the provision in the Emergency Regulation of 11th March, 1948, which purports to deny to persons detained in pursuance of the regulation the right to challenge the legality of their detention either by habeas corpus proceedings or by other legal process; and whether he will give an assurance that His Majesty's subjects in the Crown Colonies will not in future be denied the right of access to His Majesty's judges.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I would invite the hon. Member's attention to the comment on this passage in the Commission's Report which is made on page 5 of the published statement by His Majesty's Government on the Report. I am bringing to the notice of all Governors the necessity of safeguarding the right of access to the courts by the insertion, where necessary, in local legislation of a provision of the nature proposed in the statement.
    Mr. Byers: How was it that the Colonial Office could permit this denial of justice to take place in the Colonies; and does the Minister's answer mean that from now on, as far as this aspect is concerned, civil liberties will be safeguarded?
    Mr. Creech Jones: As far as possible civil liberties are safeguarded, but the Gold Coast Government at the moment are considering the revoking of this particular Clause in the Emergency Regulation.
    Mr. Beechman: Is the Minister sure that this provision is not ultra vires, and will he have inquiries made?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The matter was fully explored by the Commission which went to the Gold Coast and we are acting on the recommendations of the Commission.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    Cocoa Disease
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether arrangements have been completed for experts suggested by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation to inquire into methods of dealing with the swollen shoot disease of cocoa.
    Mr. Creech Jones: A selection of three experts has been made from a panel provided by the Food and Agriculture Organisation and I am now waiting to hear whether they are willing and able to undertake the inquiry.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Secretary of State say whether the compulsory cutting down of diseased cocoa trees, which has been suspended for many months, will continue to be suspended until these experts have reported?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I cannot give that absolute assurance. The compulsory cutting has, for the time being, been stopped, but we are still using all powers of persuasion we possibly can to induce the farmers to cut down these diseased trees.

    Monopolies (Legislation)
    Mr. Byersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to introduce in the various Crown Colonies, Protectorates and Mandated Territories, and more particularly in the West African Colonies, legislation for the prevention of monopolistic practices similar to that recently enacted in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The introduction of any similar legislation in Colonial territories is, of course, primarily a matter for the individual Colonial Governments concerned. I am at present considering whether any, and if so what, guidance should be given to Colonial Governments on this subject.

    Prohibited Publications
    Mr. Byersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give a list of publications, books, newspapers and periodicals prohibited to be imported or circulated under the various Seditious Publications Laws and Orders in British Colonies, Protectorates and Mandated Territories.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am asking the.Governments of all dependencies to let me have the necessary particulars. I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as they are received.
    Mr. Byers: While I thank the Minister for that reply, which is more satisfactory than the one he got to the same Question in 1936, may I ask him if he would be good enough to publish that information rather than communicate it only to one hon. Member?
    Mr. Creech Jones.

    CYPRUS (CONSTITUTIONAL PROPOSALS)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the impasse reached with regard to
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    the Cyprus constitutional position, he will take steps to ascertain the opinion of the people of Cyprus on this question.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am advised in this matter by the Governor and I see no need, in view of the failure of the Constituent Assembly, to invite him to consider any special steps to supplement his existing means of informing himself regarding public opinion in the Island.
    Mr. Piratin: In view of the fact that the proposals as suggested by the Secretary of State have been rejected in Cyprus and that there is a demand for a degree of independence, would not the Minister consult with the population of Cyprus in order to find the methods they would propose?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There has been the fullest consultation with the population of Cyprus and the Constituent Assembly accepted the proposals of His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Piratin: Would the Minister say how he consulted with the population?
    Mr. W. J. Brown: In any consultation which the Minister finds it necessary to have with the population of Cyprus, may we be assured that the methods adopted will not be those practised by the people's democracies?
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Communist-controlled Cyprus Labour Federation and Akel Parties have joined in the demands for the union of Cyprus with Greece.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir.

    BRITISH GUIANA (SUGAR INDUSTRY)
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what developments have taken place in the strike situation in British Guiana during the past six weeks; what action has been taken by his Department and by the local Governor to restore public order and normal production on the sugar estates; when the Commission to inquire into the sugar cane industry will begin operations; what are its terms of reference; and what is its composition.
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Commission of Inquiry into the Sugar Industry in British Guiana has yet been appointed; whether be will make a statement on the recent strike in this industry; and whether, in this connection, he is aware that strikers have been evicted from their houses and prohibited from fishing and that trespass notices have been served on labour leaders.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am glad to report that, as a result of negotiations conducted by the Governor between representatives of both sides, certain assurances given by the employers have been accepted by the labour representatives. The strike ended on 4th of September and by the 16th between 3,000 and 4.000 workers, including 1,000 cane cutters, had returned to work. In these circumstances, the Governor has withdrawn the proclamation over the area and conditions are now normal. It is a fact that the proprietors of certain affected estates served notices against trespass on the leaders of the new and unrecognised union, and also that they issued a number of eviction notices on labourers said by them to be intimidators. As part of the settlement reached, however, the employers have agreed to suspend all action in respect of such notices, subject to the right to proceed in certain serious cases. I am not aware of any action involving the prohibition of fishing.
    I will make a statement about the Commission of Inquiry into the sugar industry as soon as its constitution has been settled.
    Mr. Stewart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that despite the settlement of the strike the Communist inspired leaders who caused the trouble are still conducting a vigorous subversive propaganda throughout the Colony and, in view of the statement of the Foreign Secretary on the 15th of this month, what steps has he taken to preserve that British Colony from Communist attacks?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That matter is very much in our minds and the activities of the persons referred to are under consideration.
    Commander Noble: Can the Minister say whether since the strike was settled there have been any disturbances?
    Mr. Creech Jones: No.
    Mr. Gallacher: Would not the Minister agree that Communist propaganda clear and straight is much better than the twisted propaganda of the National Liberals?
    Mr. Stewart: As some of us did not hear the Minister's statement about the Commission, would he say what is the position in regard to the Commission which is to be appointed?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I have been in negotiation with the possible members of the Commission, but I am not yet in a position to make an announcement as to its constitution and complete terms of reference.

  FALKLAND ISLANDS

    Refrigerators
    Mr. Ralph Morleyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made or is being made with supplying the Falkland Islands with refrigerators so that mutton from surplus sheep can be exported.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am informed by the Colonial Development Corporation that they have under consideration a proposal for establishing a freezer in the Falkland Islands. The Governor of the Falkland Islands is in touch with the Corporation about this.

    Stanley School (Headship)
    Mr. John McKayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the women teachers at the Government School in Stanley, Falkland Islands, are discontented because women are not allowed promotion to headships regardless of experience and academic qualifications; that the vacancy at the Stanley School has been temporarily filled by a man who has only a Teachers' Diploma with a few months' teaching experience in a rural school; that the post is to he filled by another man appointed in England who has less than a year's certificated experience in Settlement Schools with about six scholars; that two women teachers at the school have 15 and 18 years' certificated teaching experience with superior academic qualifications; and if he will explain this policy.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am in communication with the Governor on the matter, and when my information is complete I will get in touch with my hon. Friend.
    Mr. McKay: If the information supplied and embodied in the Question is found to be correct, is the Secretary of State prepared to make any change in the decision made?.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I think I had better get the information first.

  UGANDA

    Land (Europeans)
    Mr. Parkinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what date any land in Uganda was last alienated to Europeans; and what steps are being taken to convince the African inhabitants that no further alienation is intended.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am consulting the Acting Governor on the subject and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I have received his reply.
    Colonel Dower: Is it not a fact that, in recent times, very little land has been alienated to Europeans, and is not the consideration in such cases nearly always that it is in the best interests of the natives themselves?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The supplementary question is completely correct; there is very little alienation.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: In order to avoid any misunderstanding, will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that the powers given to the East African Central Assembly to acquire land are solely restricted to the acquisition of land for public purposes and in no way affect the powers of taking land from Africans for transfer to Europeans?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, that is so

    Buganda Mirembe Movement
    Mr. Parkinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the declared aims of the Buganda Mirembe movement; and what is his attitude towards these aims.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am consulting the Acting Governor on the subject and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I have received his reply.
    Mr. Parkin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this movement originated to defend the interests of tribal chiefs whose powers were declining even before the British came in, and would he give an answer indicating his attitude to the statement of its aims, lest this movement results in a series of political claims of a contradictory character?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There is considerable obscurity about this movement.

    Seditious Literature (Arrests)
    Mr. Parkinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what arrests have taken place in Uganda for possession of copies of a letter written to Bishop Stuart about the sale of church land; what charges were preferred; and what penalties imposed.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I understand that two persons were recently arrested and charged in Uganda for importing, being in possession of and publishing a letter to Bishop Stuart which was regarded as seditious literature. One was sentenced to six months hard labour on each of these three counts, the sentences being concurrent. My latest information about the second person is that the case has been adjourned.
    Mr. Parkin: Would my right hon. Friend make very careful inquiry about this matter which has caused considerable indignation in Uganda, and is he aware that those of us who have read the letter —and it was a very long one—perhaps feel that there may have been some lack of a sense of proportion?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am not, of course, immediately responsible for the administration of justice in Uganda, but I will look into the facts of this case.

    ZANZIBAR (STRIKE)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the causes, conduct and results of the recent general strike in Zanzibar.
    Mr. Creech Jones: As the reply is long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

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    Following is the reply:
    On 20th August, dock labourers, who less than two months earlier had entered into contracts, embodying new conditions of employment, presented demands for improved terms and struck within 48 hours, ignoring the consultative machinery which was available to them. On 25th August, when it became clear that intimidation might be used in an attempt to extend the strike, the Government issued a notice warning the people against the use of intimidation and stating that it was prepared to meet any violence with all force at its command. As the clearance of cargo was of vital importance and as an attempt was being made to divert rural food supplies from the main markets of the town preparations were made to recruit labour outside the town. About the same time, an attempt was made to extend the stoppage of work into a general strike, but the response was only partial and to some extent due to threats.
    On 2nd September, a demonstration against men going to work took place in the vicinity of the docks where police were stationed. Large numbers of men carrying arms of various kinds collected at the Customs Gate, and a Magistrate who was present decided to read the Riot Proclamation. Thereafter tear gas was used by the Police, but no shooting occurred.
    Additional police and troops from the mainland were asked for and arrived on that day and the following days. During this time the Senior Commissioner, who is the Principal Labour Officer, and his assistants, with the help of the Information Officer explained the situation to the strikers and other members of the public, and endeavoured to induce them to be reasonable. His Highness the Sultan also issued a personal message with the same purpose.
    On the 11th September, the British Resident reported that the dock workers and other persons on strike had returned to work and the situation was normal. The troops and additional Police were returned to Tanganyika. I have not yet heard from the Resident the terms on which work has been resumed, but I will write to my hon. Friend when I have received a further report.

  HONG KONG

    Unregistered Printing Press
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that Mak En Cheun, chairman of the Naval Dockyard Employees Association in Hong Kong was recently prosecuted for having an unregistered printing press; that the printing press was an ordinary duplicating machine of a type in common use by business firms, etc., who are not compelled to register; and for what reason this prosecution was initiated.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I understand that an appeal is pending in this case before the Hong Kong courts; as the matter is therefore sub judice, I regret I am unable to make any statement.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a feeling that these petty, pin-pricking prosecutions are never taken against members of the Kuomintang or their supporters but are mostly reserved for those who are not members of that organisation?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I cannot accept that assumption, but this case is still in the courts, and I am not able to make any statement on it.
    Mr. Rankin: Will the Minister inquire into that aspect of the matter?

    NORTHERN RHODESIA (NATIVE POLICY)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Secretary for Native Affairs in Northern Rhodesia has announced in the African Representative Council that the doctrine of paramountcy of native interests is dead; and whether he will make a statement of his policy in this respect.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The Secretary for Native Affairs told the Council that the 1923 White Paper on this question was dead, in the sense that it had been superseded by the report of the Joint Select Committee of Parliament of October, 1931, which reviewed previous statements on native policy and the relations of the African and immigrant communities. The report of the Joint Select Committee

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    continues to be the operative document on this question. Paragraph 73 of this report sums up the matter by saying that the doctrine of paramountcy means no more than that the interests of the overwhelming majority of the indigenous population should not be subordinated to those of a minority belonging to another race, however important in itself. This interpretation was accepted as authoritative in 1932 and the policy of His Majesty's Government in this matter has not changed since then.
    Mr. Skinnard: Would not the Secretary of State agree that this was only a belated announcement of the demise of the doctrine in 1931, and would not the better way have been to give a more positive statement of present policy?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Many positive statements have been made by preceding Governments since 1931, and all I can say is that that policy remains as firm today as when those statements were made.

    NIGERIA (PUBLIC SERVICES, STAFFS)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what recommendations have been made by the Committee which has reported on the staffing of the public services in Nigeria by Nigerians; and which of these recommendations are to be adopted by the local government.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I have arranged for a copy of the Commission's Reps to be placed in the Library of the House. The Governor has warmly welcomed the Commission's recommendations, and, subject to further discussion on certain points of detail and organisation, has approved all their main proposals.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this Committee, on which was a substantial African majority, including various Nigerian leaders, reached a unanimous report recommending a scholarship scheme of £250,000, and, in view of the tremendous success of this development and its warm reception in the national Press of Nigeria, will he recommend the Governments of other Colonies to establish similar schemes?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Certainly, the Report will be brought to the notice of other
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    Governments, and I hope that hon. Members will also read the copy which has been placed in the Library of this House.

    ADEN (AIR PASSAGES)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that air passages for Indians and Arabs coming to this country to join British ships are being provided at Aden at a charge of £150; and that an extra charge is made to them for the services of boarding house keepers who find the ships; and what steps he is taking to prevent this.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I have no information on the subject, but I am consulting the Governor of Aden, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I have received his reply.

  ROYAL NAVY

    H.M.S. "Ajax" (Sale)
    Mr. J. P. L. Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will now make a further statement regarding the transfer of H.M.S. "Ajax" to Chile.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): I regret that I am not in a position to add to the information already given to the House.
    Mr. Thomas: Will the Civil Lord impress upon the Government that the darker the international situation grows, the firmer their decision should be not to sell any serviceable ship, above all H.M.S. "Ajax," to a country still in illegal possession of British territory?
    Mr. Edwards: The Government will bear in mind anything which the hon. Gentleman has to say on naval matters.
    Sir Ronald Ross: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Navy is very much under strength in cruisers, according to all the normal estimates of what cruisers we require to look after our trade?
    Mr. Edwards: We do not quite accept that. In any case, this is a very old ship which, obviously, will not be of great use to the Royal Navy in a number of years' time.

    Peacetime Strength
    Mr. J. P. L. Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will make a statement showing the progress made in the reconstitution of the Fleets to appropriate peacetime strength, in accordance with the proposals made in the Statement accompanying the 1948–49 Navy Estimates.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Satisfactory progress has been made in the planned build-up of the Navy. This is evidenced by the start tomorrow of the Home Fleet on its Autumn Cruise.
    Mr. Thomas: Can the hon. Gentleman say if the cruiser and destroyer strengths are up to the figures given in the White Paper which accompanied the Naval Estimates this year; and whether, in view of the changed international conditions, the Government will consider issuing a revised programme, as the one issued at the time of the Naval Estimates is rather out of date?
    Mr. Edwards: At the moment, we are not prepared to issue a further White Paper on the subject, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, as far as cruiser and destroyer strengths are concerned, they have, more or less, been kept in accordance with the White Paper.
    Commander Galbraith: Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to state the present strength of the Home Fleet?
    Mr. Edwards: Not at the moment.
    Commander Noble: Could the Civil Lord confirm the recent reports in the Press that a large number of destroyers and escort vessels have been brought forward for refit?
    Mr. Edwards: We are always refitting destroyers and escort vessels, and this work has been going on for a long time.
    Commander Noble: Have any special steps been taken recently?
    Mr. Edwards: The work has been speeded up in accordance with the Government's policy.

    Pensioner Clerks
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has any statement to make with regard
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    to the progress of the Admiralty's proposals for the assimilation of Pensioner Clerks into the General Clerical Class
    Mr. W. Edwards: Agreement has now been reached with the staff side, and orders will shortly be issued promulgating the detailed arrangements for the assimilation of the Pensioner Clerks into the General Clerical Class

    Dartmouth Entry Scheme
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will now give the following information about the second examination under the new Dartmouth entry scheme: the number of vacancies; the number of candidates; the number who failed in the written examination; the number who failed in the interview; and the number appointed as cadets.
    Mr. W. Edwards: As the hon. and gallant Member was informed on 14th July last, there were 319 candidates for 29 vacancies. Of the 319, 247 failed in the written examination. The remaining 72 candidates have still to be interviewed, and the final results will not be available until about the end of November.

    Tuberculosis
    Mr. T. J. Brooksasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many men were discharged from the Navy from 1940 to 1946 suffering from tuberculosis; and how many died whilst in the Service, or were discharged suffering from this disease aggravated by, or attributable to their service in the Navy, respectively.
    Mr. W. Edwards: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Brooks: Will the Civil Lord tell us whether the Naval barracks have been very much improved since the war, because it is felt by many people that a good deal of tuberculosis is created by overcrowded sleeping and bad eating conditions?
    Mr. Edwards: I can say from my own experience that there has been a great improvement in the conditions in at least one Naval establishment—the Royal Naval Barracks, Chatham. The conditions there were altogether different when

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    I visited the barracks recently from what they were in 1942, when I left them to come here. I am also glad to say that the men there now sleep in a different room from that in which they eat. It has always been the custom in the Navy for the men to sleep where they eat.
    Mr. Brooks: I am sure that that answer will give a good deal of satisfaction to the people of this country.
    Following is the reply:

    Officers and Men invalided for Pulmonary Tuberculosis during the years 1940–46

    9,010

    Cases accepted by the Ministry of Pensions during the years 1940–46

    9,614*

    Attributable

    3,777

    Aggravated

    5,837

    Deaths during service

    430

    (It is not possible to say from the records in how many of these cases of death claims were accepted by the Ministry.)
    * Includes post discharge claims from men invalided for reasons other than tuberculosis: for example, injury
    It is not possible to say from the records how many post discharge claims are included.

    Reserves
    Commander Maitlandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what steps the Government are taking to reconstitute the Royal Naval Reserve.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The future of the Royal Naval Reserve is still under consideration, but, unfortunately, it has not yet been possible to come to a decision.
    Commander Maitland: Could the hon. Gentleman give us a little more information why it has not been possible to come to a decision before now? Surely, this constitutes one of the chief reserves. Why has nothing been done about it during all this period?
    Mr. Edwards: As the hon. and gallant Gentleman no doubt knows, this particular question has to be dealt with by the Reserves Organisation Committee of the Admiralty who have been going into it very carefully. But one of the difficulties in resetting up the R.N.R. is perfectly obvious; it is, that we do not want to enrol people in the R.N.R. whose services we may not be able to obtain on the declaration of war. That is the matter which we are going into in the Merchant Navy, and that is why it is being held up.
    Sir R. Ross: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the only official link between the Merchant Navy and the Royal Navy and that, in previous wars, the system has worked very well. The R.N.R. has given admirable service. Why cannot the Admiralty make up their minds?
    Mr. Edwards: It is not a question of casting any aspersions on the R.N.R. in the past. I am happy to be able to pay a tribute to it from my own personal knowledge, but there is that difficulty. I can assure the House that we will reconstitute it as and when we can.
    Commander Maitland: Does not the Civil Lord realise that a great deal of the training which R.N.R. officers and men get is extremely useful to them if they have to go to sea in wartime? It makes them more flexible and able to be moved about in the service of their country in the positions in which they desire to be.
    Mr. Edwards: I am fully aware of all that, and the Admiralty are conscious of it also, but, as I have said, we are going into the matter as quickly as possible.
    Sir R. Ross: Can the hon. Gentleman give us some idea when this long, protracted deliberation at the Admiralty will come to a conclusion.
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the present number of officers and men, respectively, in the R.N.V.R., on List I and List II.
    Mr. W. Edwards: There are 647 officers and 1,414 ratings on List I of the R.N.V.R., and 583 officers and eight ratings on List II. List I includes the R.N.V.(W.)R. and the R.N.V.R. (Air) Squadrons.

    Lifebelts
    Commander Maitlandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether lifebelts or some similar device for individual support in the water are available for each member of the ships' companies in all of His Majesty's ships; and whether he can give an assurance that ample reserves are available to cover any sudden expansion of His Majesty's Navy and for issue to merchant seamen in an emergency.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Stocks of lifebelts for instructional purposes and use in boats are carried in all His Majesty's ships; and a personal issue is made for ships employed in mine clearance operations, or when necessary for special operational reasons. The stocks maintained by the Admiralty at home and abroad are sufficient for an issue to be made when necessary to each member of the ship's company of all His Majesty's ships, and to cover any sudden expansion of the Royal Navy. The provision of lifebelts for the Merchant Navy is not the responsibility of the Admiralty.
    Commander Maitland: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that thousands of officers and men in the Royal Navy were killed at the beginning of the last war and the 1914 war because these lifebelts were not in the ships at the outbreak of war; and will he therefore consider whether it would not be advisable always to have personal lifesaving apparatus in the ships during peacetime?
    Mr. Edwards: It has never happened before as, no doubt, the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, but it is certainly a matter well worth considering. Even if we cannot supply ships' companies with one lifebelt each, as happens in war, I feel certain that consideration will be given to the possibility of seeing that, should an emergency arise at any time, the lifebelts will be available for the ships.

    Officers' Widows (Pensions)
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will now make a statement on the future arrangements governing the award of pensions to the widows of officers.
    Mr. W. Edwards: I regret I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Will the Civil Lord indicate when he will be likely to make a statement?
    Mr. Edwards: This question is under active consideration, but, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, it is a matter affecting the three Services, and we must get some common agreement on the issue. We are at least pursuing it as quickly as possible, but I am afraid that it may be some little time yet.

    Industrial Employees (Sick Leave)
    Mr. Medlandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what sick leave with pay is granted to industrial employees in His Majesty's dockyards and naval establishments; and whether the same amount of leave with pay applies equally to hired and established workmen.
    Mr. W. Edwards: There is no difference between the provisions of paid sick leave for hired and established Admiralty industrial employees. I will let my hon. Friend have details of the scheme.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Is my hon. Friend aware that the men in the Devonport Dockyard have been fighting for these reforms for something like 25 years; and is this not a further proof that under a Labour Government it is possible to make progress, even at the Admiralty?

    Ships, Antarctic Waters
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether arrangements have been made for sufficient of His Majesty's ships to be in Antarctic waters during the coming Antarctic summer to prevent further illegal landings in His Majesty's Antarctic possessions.
    Mr. W. Edwards: No special arrangements have been made, but the hon. Member can rest assured that the dispositions of His Majesty's ships are carefully reviewed as necessary.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the Civil Lord assure the House that sufficient ships will be available to provide an appropriate reception for any heads of friendly States who may happen to drop in unexpectedly?
    Mr. Edwards: I am afraid I must stick to the reply rather than deal with that supplementary question. However, I would again assure the hon. Gentleman that all these matters are carefully watched, and that he may depend on the Admiralty carrying out its job in the proper way.

    EIRE (LANE PICTURES)
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Prime Minister whether, in the light of his discussions with the representatives

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    of Eire, he will make a statement about the future custody and exhibition of the Lane pictures.
    The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister took part in no discussions on this subject during his recent visit to Eire.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that some discussions took place when representatives from Eire were in this country? It is those discussions to which I am referring. Will my right hon. Friend answer the Question in the light of that fact?
    Mr. Morrison: That is so; there were some rather informal discussions on the matter when the Prime Minister of Eire was here on an earlier occasion, but I am afraid I am unable to say when a statement will be made on this somewhat complex matter.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Will my right hon. Friend continue to bear in mind that we are under a moral obligation to take some positive action over this question?
    Mr. Morrison: That, of course, prejudices the issue.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a room standing idle in the Municipal Gallery, Dublin, waiting for these pictures, that this issue is a source of feeling between the citizens of Eire and of this country, and it would be valuable to our relations if an early settlement could be reached?
    Mr. Morrison: It so happens that I am very well versed in all the details of this matter, and I have read many papers about it. In fact, I have read so many and I am so well versed that I would not like to make any dogmatic observation upon it.
    Mr. John Lewis: Would my right hon Friend clear up one matter which arose upon a supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge)? In the opinion of the Government, to whom do these pictures belong?
    Mr. Morrison: That is a question which I would not like to answer.

    COMMON COLD (RESEARCH)
    Mr. John Lewisasked the Lord President of the Council to what extent the Medical Research Council and other similar organisations have been concerned during the past year with investigation into the cause and cure of the common cold; what sums have been expended on this research; and what results have been attained.
    Mr. H. Morrison: The Medical Research Council, with the co-operation of the Ministry of Health, have continued to maintain research into the nature and transmission of the infection, using human volunteers, at the Harvard Hospital, Salisbury. The cost to the Council during the last financial year was approximately £9,500, exclusive of hospital accommodation and services provided by the Ministry of Health. Useful progress has been made, but there are as yet no results capable of practical application.
    Mr. Lewis: Is it not revealed in my right hon. Friend's reply that a totally inadequate sum is being spent on investigation into this matter, which quite obviously is costing the nation many millions of pounds every year?
    Mr. Morrison: If I was quite sure that by going to the Treasury and asking for a substantial addition we would automatically solve the problem, I assure my hon. Friend that I would do so and I agree with him that it would pay, but money spent upon research must be governed by the likely practical results from the expenditure. We are doing all we can.
    Mr. Lewis:How can one possibly say what the likely results will be unless money is spent on research?
    Mr. Morrison: That is a very wasteful philosophy.
    Mr. J. Lewisasked the Lord President of the Council if he will give an estimate of the cost to the nation of illness resulting from the incidence of the common cold.
    Mr. H. Morrison: I am sorry, but there are no statistics sufficiently complete to provide a basis for an estimate which would have any reliable value.

  ARMED FORCES

    Officers' Uniforms (Purchase Tax)
    Sir Ralph Glynasked the Minister of Defence if he will consider, in conjunction with the Service Departments concerned, the financial burden placed on officers of the three Services having to pay Purchase Tax on all articles of uniform; whether, in view of the high cost of uniforms now prevailing, any estimate has been made of the increased expenditure in which officers are involved on promotion, etc.; and what steps he considers should be taken at once to meet this situation.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): Yes, Sir. This matter is already being considered, and perhaps the hon. Member would be good enough to put down his Question again early in the next Session.
    Commander Noble: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider readjusting the £35 tax free allowance which has remained at that same figure for some years?
    Mr. Alexander: The whole question is under consideration by the three Services. I am afraid that getting them into line as far as possible will take some little time.

    Deserters
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Defence what is the total number of deserters from the Armed Forces; approximately how many of these have deserted since 1945; and if he will give an estimate of the total number considered likely to be in the United Kingdom, Eire, and elsewhere, respectively.
    Mr. Alexander: On 31st July the recorded number of deserters, excluding men who failed to answer call up notices, was 19,700. Of this number, between 6,000 and 7,000 deserted in the last three years. Of the total of 19,700, over 10,500 have home addresses in Eire. Of the remainder, nearly 1,000 are known to have deserted abroad. Making allowance for deaths and multiple desertions by individuals, I would say that the number still in the United Kingdom is, at the most, 8,000 and may be less.
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Defence whether Service men will be allowed to purchase their discharge during the temporary suspension of Class A demobilisation.
    Mr. Alexander: Yes, Sir. But I must make it plain that the Service authorities have always had discretion to refuse applications for the purchase of discharge by men serving on regular engagements; this discretion must clearly be exercised in accordance with the demands of the present situation.
    Mr. Digby: Does that mean that the number of specialists who have already been refused is likely to be materially increased?
    Mr. Alexander: I am very anxious not to cancel the arrangement which has been restored as a right to the regular serving man to apply for his purchase out of the Service, but I must have each case considered by the responsible Service authorities on its merits in the light of the present circumstances.

    Additional Equipment (Cost)
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the Minister of Defence at how much he estimates the cost of the supply of the additional aircraft, tanks and weapons now to be urgently provided for the Forces.
    Mr. Alexander: The object of the recent measures is to improve the rate of production of certain items of equipment, within the general requirements programme. The expenditure will, therefore, be incurred earlier than would otherwise have been the case. The extra cost in the present financial year will depend on the speed with which the increased production can be built up, and it is not yet possible to give a reliable estimate.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Points Goods
    Mr. Digbyasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that points goods such as canned meat and canned fish have been unobtainable in many rural districts at the time of the additional seasonal allowances made to farm workers; and whether he will arrange that in future extra points goods are sent to

    881
    agricultural areas so as to ensure that the additional points allocated to farm workers are honoured.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to Questions asked by the hon. Members for Tonbridge (Mr. G. Williams), Huntingdon (Mr. Renton), Canterbury (Mr. Baker White), Salisbury (Mr. J. Morrison), East Norfolk (Brigadier Medlicott), Maldon (Mr. Driberg), and South Molton (Mr. Lambert) on Monday. 20th September.
    Mr. Driberg: Is my hon. Friend aware that, owing to the exigencies of our procedure, those replies were written replies and, therefore, we were unable to ask any supplementary questions? Would my hon. Friend bear in mind the very real hardship caused to dwellers in remote rural districts by these points shortages, and that most of them cannot get to any kind of catering establishment at all?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, I recognise all the difficulties in rural areas, but my hon. Friend must realise that the rural workers particularly want canned meat and canned fish, and, unfortunately, those commodities cost dollars.
    Mr. Driberg: Are they made available to catering establishments in the towns on a much more substantial scale than they are to the rural shops?
    Mr. Digby: In all places where there are seasonal increases in demand, such as in holiday resorts, are extra allocations allowed? Can the hon. Lady say whether in districts like Dorset, where clearly a large number of holidaymakers go, any extra allowance is made in respect of holidaymakers in addition to the extra points that are needed for the workers?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir. When the proprietors of catering establishments in holiday resorts go to the local food offices their needs are fully investigated and allocations are made, but the allocations of certain pointed foods, including canned meat and canned fish, are related to registrations only.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Are not these sort of foods available in the ordinary course
    882
    of events in canteens in industrial and mining areas?
    Dr. Summerskill: Certainly. We try to distribute these things equitably between all workers.
    Mr. Hudson: Surely it is clear from the hon. Lady's answer that there is differentiation against the rural workers because they are not getting an equitable share of these things? The industrial workers and the miners are getting more than their fair share.
    Dr. Summerskill: I said nothing to indicate that. I said that all workers are treated equitably. These particular pointed foods are related to registrations, and the miner is treated the same as everyone else.
    Mr. David Renton: Is the hon. Lady aware that a large number of people who have meals regularly in industrial canteens are not heavy manual workers and, bearing in mind that those canteens get very much more meat than many other heavy workers get, will she please review completely the allocation of meat and high calory food to industrial canteens?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman must know that there are two standards in canteens, one for heavy workers and one for light workers.
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been called to the shortage of goods obtainable for points; and whether any increase from non-dollar sources may be expected during the remainder of the year.
    Dr. Summerskill: Releases of points foods are sufficient to honour the points entitlements but I know that there is a shortage of some of the more popular imported canned goods. It was to provide more equitable distribution that the new method of allocations was introduced. There will be no increase in allocations of imported canned goods this year. For a number of other points goods there should be some slight easement of the position in the next few months.
    Sir I. Fraser: Will the hon. Lady try to see that more varied and sustaining points goods are provided in rural areas, especially in the village shops?
    Mr. Driberg: Did my hon. Friend say she hoped to introduce a more equitable system of distribution in the future? If so, in what respects has it been particularly inequitable in the past?
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir, I did not say that.
    Mr. Driberg: I am sorry. I misheard my hon. Friend.

    Enforcement Officers (Powers of Search)
    Major Guy Lloydasked the Minister of Food how many hotels and boarding houses have been searched by his enforcement officers during the past three months.
    Mr. Wadsworth: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister deal with Questions Nos. 75 and 76 on the same subject?
    Mr. Speaker: We have not yet reached Questions 75 and 76. I hope we shall, but we must wait until we do.
    Dr. Summerskill: I regret this information could not be obtained without making special inquiry of each officer.
    Major Lloyd: Is the Minister aware that there is grave dissatisfaction in many parts of the country over this procedure which does not savour of anything but something which comes from Germany?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am not aware of that, but if the hon. Member can give me any specific case where an officer has abused his powers I will be only too willing to investigate it.

    Beekeepers (Sugar Allowance)
    Mr. J. H. Hareasked the Minister of Food whether he will make an extra allotment of sugar to beekeepers in order to maintain the bee population, which is now at starvation point.
    Dr. Summerskill: Two supplementary allowances, each of 5 lb. of sugar per colony, have been allowed during July and September, in addition to the 10 lb. winter allowance. Beekeepers may also draw the spring allowance of 5 lb. with the winter allowance, if they wish. I think the hon. Member will agree that this is ample.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: In order that we may judge whether this allocation is adequate or not, can the Minister tell us what were the stocks of sugar in hand on 1st July, 1948?
    Dr. Summerskill: I think the bees are being treated very well and I would like the hon. Member to know that each colony is now getting what is equivalent to the sugar ration of one person a year.

    Biscuits (Exports)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the inability in many parts of the country of the public to secure supplies of most varieties of biscuits due to large exports, he will reduce the volume of biscuits exported so as to make available more adequate supplies for the home consumer.
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. Biscuits exported earn much more currency than their ingredients cost and therefore they help to pay for other food imports.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is there never to be an end to this sort of answer about dollars and currencies? Is it not a fact that biscuits cannot be obtained in most parts of the country? Why not down-point them, make them more plentiful and use common sense for once?
    Dr. Summerskill: We feel itis common sense to export biscuits to Canada in order to get bacon and eggs in return.
    Mr. Harrison: Would the Minister consider accepting responsibility completely for the distribution of biscuits in this country, thereby overcoming disproportionate distribution?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir.

    Sweets Ration
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the fact that each month more sweets are manufactured in the country than the public is able to buy on the ration, and that the overseas export market for sweets is not now able to absorb any greater quantities, he will de-ration sweets, or, double the ration now available to children under 14.
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. Supplies are far from sufficient to allow us to do

    885
    this, but we have already given two bonuses to enable stocks to be cleared. We have no evidence that the export market has reached saturation point.
    Mr. De la Bère: Will the Minister make inquiries of the manufacturers throughout the country, from whom there is overwhelming evidence that the export market is not capable of expansion and that adequate supplies are here to de-ration sweets? Why not give us one miserable boiled sweet more?
    Dr. Summerskill: Perhaps the hon. Member will inform me of one market abroad which is saturated.
    Mr. De la Bère: The West Coast of Africa.

    Milk
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Food if he will state the cost per gallon landed in England of the milk being flown from Northern Ireland.
    Dr. Summerskill: The cost this month is 4s. 5¼d. per gallon.
    Mr. Hurd: Is the hon. Lady aware that that is double the price per gallon being paid to farmers in the North-West Region of England where this milk is being landed? It seems a very extravagant way of doing this. Will the hon. Lady look at it again and see whether she cannot get the milk from Ireland at a considerably lower cost?
    Dr. Summerskill: We have examined the alternatives. It would require two ships to bring 35,000 gallons to this country every day, which would cost just as much as the air passage.
    Sir R. Ross: Is the hon. Lady aware that there are many too few ships in any event and could she bring some pressure to bear to increase the number of ships and have this milk sent by ship rather than by air?
    Dr. Summerskill: That is a Question for another Department.
    Colonel Wheatleyasked the Minister of Food if, when reviewing the milk situation for the coming winter, he will bear in mind the special needs of persons of 70 years and over.
    Dr. Summerskill: The special needs of old people have repeatedly been considered with very great care. Unfortunately, supplies are insufficient for us to be able to add persons of 70 years and over to the priority classes for milk.
    Colonel Wheatley: Is the hon. Lady aware that there is great feeling throughout the country that old people, especially those living alone, cannot get on with less than three pints of milk a week?
    Dr. Summerskill: While I am very sympathetic towards the old people, I must remind the hon. Member that there are over 3,000,000 people in this country of 70 or over and if we increased their allocation it would be necessary to decrease the allocation to non-priority consumers. which we do not think is desirable.

    Potatoes
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Food at what prices and in what quantities were the potatoes sold which had been stored at Grimsby and Immingham earlier this year; who purchased them; and how much per ton did they cost his Department, including all charges for transport and warehousing.
    Dr. Summerskill: Five thousand, one hundred and sixty-seven tons were sold to wholesale potato merchants for £51,359; 2,643 tons to the Control Commission for Germany for £24,921; and 3,100 tons as stockfeed potatoes to merchants and farmers for £9,842. The average cost per ton, including freight. bags and warehousing, was £18 14s. 6d.
    Mr. Osborne: Is the hon. Lady aware that these potatoes were either so badly bought or so badly stored that, at the end, members of the Transport Workers Union refused to move them because they smelt so badly; that private traders had to be brought in to get the potatoes to the refuse dump; and will she see that the person who is responsible for this is moved, even if it be the Minister himself?
    Dr. Summerskill: If these things happened I am surprised that the hon. Member has not communicated with me before. I would have had the matter investigated.
    Mr. Osborne: Is it in Order, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister to challenge a

    887
    back bencher and to say that the matter should have been raised earlier when, in fact, it has been raised on many occasions? I have raised the matter on many occasions.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not know exactly what was said, but I think the Minister is entitled to challenge the accuracy of anything stated by the hon. Member. Hon. Members are responsible for what they say, but the Minister can say that it is not accurate. Possibly the Minister has more facts than the hon. Member.
    Mr. Osborne: The point on which I am asking for direction, Sir, is this: is the Minister entitled to challenge an hon. Member and to say that a certain matter should have been brought up before when, as a matter of fact, it has been brought up on many occasions before in this House? Ought not that to be with-drawn?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not see anything wrong in the Minister saying that the matter should have been brought up before.
    Mr. Osborne: But it has been brought up before.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not a fact that this matter was brought up at the Gravesend By-Election, when hon. Members opposite said we were going to be short of potatoes?

    Rice
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Food whether he is now in a position to make an announcement on the distribution of rice; what will be the price to the public; and how many points will be required.
    Dr. Summerskill: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) on 20th September. A maximum retail price of 9d. per lb. is already prescribed for rice. The number of points required for points ration commodities is decided shortly before distribution is about to be made.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Can the Minister deny the reports which appeared in the Press that this rice is to be re-transported back to the countries from which it was originally imported?
    Dr. Summerskill: My right hon. Friend has explained to the House that this might have to be considered.

    Tea and Jam Rationing
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Food whether he is now prepared to abolish tea and jam rationing.
    Dr. Summerskill: Our stocks and anticipated future supplies of tea are not sufficient even to warrant an increase in the tea ration at present and abolition of rationing altogether is unlikely to be possible for some time. We have recently freed a large number of varieties of jam and we must see how the new arrangement works before deciding whether we can go further.
    Sir I. Fraser: In view of the fact that all these commodities come from non-dollar sources, might not we have expected that after three years we would have got rid of rationing?
    Dr. Summerskill: I must remind the hon. Member that sugar comes from dollar sources.

MALAYA (SITUATION)
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): I have to state that recent reports from the Acting High Commissioner in Malaya show some improvement in the situation as a result of the firm measures taken by the Government to check the operations of the Communists and bandits. There has been a rapid expansion of the police forces and of the arrangements for protecting life and property. As the House is aware, military reinforcements have been sent, and there has been no delay in sending out the men asked for. Jungle fighters have begun offensive operations. Arms ordered by the Civil authorities have been despatched to Malaya—often by air —within a fortnight from the receipt of the order in this country, and all orders have been fully met, with the exception of certain mobile wireless sets of a type unobtainable in this country, although a number have been obtained from Australia.
In this campaign of intimidation and violence, 186 civilians have been murdered, mainly Chinese who refused

889
to help the terrorists, but including 14 Europeans. Our profound sympathy goes out to the relatives and friends of these innocent victims of the evil and lawless. Some 158 terrorists have been killed and over 200 captured. A large number of persons have been detained for screening under the Emergency Regulations. Quantities of arms have been captured, including a seizure by the Singapore police and the Netherlands East Indies authorities of a large cargo. The activities of the Communists and bandits have been restricted, and the measures taken by the police and military authorities appear to be destroying their offensive and disorganising their operations. But murders still occur, and I can assure the House that there will be no relaxation until this lawlessness has been stopped. The House will view with admiration the splendid fortitude of all peaceable people in Malaya in the face of this trouble.
I am in urgent consultation with the authorities in Malaya to see whether it will be possible to provide cover for losses and damage occasioned by the present disorders, the importance of which, from the point of view of maintaining production and exports in Malaya, I fully appreciate.
The Acting High Commissioner recently reported:
"Although progress is slow, it is steady. We cannot expect spectacular successes as bandits very rarely expose themselves in numbers. We are still liable to attacks on individual managers and estate buildings, but our defences are greatly improved, and I feel that we are getting on top."
A number of matters have been raised in recent Debates, and I hope I can deal with these in the Adjournment Debate on Friday.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: I want only to ask the right hon. Gentleman one question, as I think it is the fact that we shall he permitted to raise this matter on the Adjournment on Friday?
Mr. Speaker: I have given the first hour and a half, at least, to Malaya. I have given two hours for the two subjects of Malaya and the Gold Coast, one and a half hours for Malaya, and half an hour for the Gold Coast.
Mr. Stanley: The only question, therefore, I want to ask is about the insurance cover. Are we to understand from the
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right hon. Gentleman's statement that the present position is that people are not covered out there by the ordinary policy? If that is the case, is it not very urgent that the Government should immediately substitute protection of their own?
Mr. Creech Jones: There is difficulty, of course, with insurance companies with regard to this matter, and I am at the moment in touch with the Government in Malaya in regard to it.
Mr. Thomas Reid: What proportion of the insurgents are Malays and what proportion are Chinese?
Mr. Creech Jones: They are almost entirely Chinese.
Mr. Gammans: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that whatever insurance scheme may be brought in will have retrospective effect? Will he also say how he reconciles the statement he made in July, that all necessary arms and equipment asked for had been sent out, with the fact that equipment and extra troops are being sent out now?
Mr. Creech Jones: There is nothing inconsistent in my statement today with the statement I made in July. The statement I made in July confirmed the view that all that had been asked for at that time by the Malayan authorities had been supplied or was being transmitted.
Mr. Gammans: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the first part of my question—about insurance?
Mr. Creech Jones: In regard to the insurance, the point in regard to retrospection is being considered now.
Mr. Rankin: In view of the fact that there will be a great many people arrested merely on suspicion, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that they will not be detained unduly long, and that where the suspicion is unfounded they will be released immediately?
Mr. Creech Jones: I can give that assurance. A very considerable number of those already detained have been released.
Mr. Pickthorn: When the right hon. Gentleman refers to the insurance companies' difficulty about what they are liable for at this moment, can he shortly explain to the House what that difficulty

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is, as otherwise there is a risk that blame may be attached to those who are not in any way to blame? Would be kindly explain what is the difficulty here, because it is not publicly plain, I think?
Mr. Creech Jones: The difficulty of the insurance companies refers to the cover provided for in the policy. It is on that point.
Mr. Pickthorn: Whether this is an insurrection or not?
Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: I think that in his statement my right hon. Friend said troops had been despatched within two weeks of the receipt in this country or the order. That is not very clear. When did the order come?
Mr. Creech Jones: I did not say troops had been despatched. I said arms, weapons and supplies asked for had been despatched within a fortnight of the receipt of the order in this country.
General Sir George Jeffreys: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Commander-in-Chief is now satisfied that he has all the forces that he requires? He will remember that when the High Commissioner broadcast just before the last Debate it was stated that the Commander-in-Chief, with certain exceptions, was satisfied with the forces at his disposal. Are there any exceptions still?
Mr. Creech Jones: The requests so far made have been met. It is impossible at this moment to say what further requirements will be asked for?
Mr. Warbey: Can my right hon. Friend say anything about the reported burnings of squatters' huts by Government forces, with consequent suffering for women and children? What is the advantage gained from the use of these measures, which are so contrary to British conceptions of justice?
Mr. Creech Jones: The authorities in Malaya have taken merely preventive measures. Where they have had justifiable suspicion they have tried to clear up the source of the trouble.
Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent the illegal traffic of arms to Malaya is taking place, and what is being done to prevent it?
Mr. Creech Jones: The authorities, of course, have been watching this problem and trying to control it for a very long time. The recent seizures are evidence of the efforts they are making, and of the success which is attending their efforts.
Mr. Harold Davies: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the French expected Viet Nam to finish in a few weeks? It has already lasted 15 months. Is he aware that none of these disturbances took place in Malaya until after 13th June in Singapore and 28th June in the Federation, which was after the emergency powers were declared? In view of that fact, is there any possibility of top level negotiations on all sides at the present moment? [An HON. MEMBER: "Who with? Stalin?" I Otherwise, this will be a major war.
Mr. Creech Jones: There is no room for negotiations in this matter at all. This trouble must be rooted out, and all the resources at our disposal to root it out will be employed.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smiles: Can the right hon. Gentleman state if the planters who were without weapons now have been issued with them, or on what date he expects that revolvers will be issued to those planters living in lonely places?
Mr. Creech Jones: There has been wide distribution of weapons, but I am not in possession of all the details at the moment. I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the insurance companies have repudiated liability on the grounds that their policies do not cover a state of insurrection, and does he agree that the statement made, I think, by the Acting High Commissioner, that the state of affairs now prevailing in Malaya is one of insurrection?
Mr. Creech Jones: That is a difficult question for me to answer, because it is a matter of legal interpretation, and on this matter there is a difference of views between competent legal advisers.
Mr. Keeling: The right hon. Gentleman has praised the conduct of the inhabitants of Malaya. Can he say anything about

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the conduct of the British and Gurkha troops, and police and the Royal Air Force?
Mr. Creech Jones: I can only say that all those employed in the service of the Government have behaved with great valour, great courage and decision in coping with the difficulties which have arisen.
Mr. Gallacher: In view of the nature of the statement read out, is it not the case that the fundamental issue is the right of the Malayans to independence and the right to nationalise the tin and rubber industries?
Sir Peter Macdonald: If the Malayan Government now have powers to deport people whom they have found to be illegally in Malaya, have they powers to keep under control all organisations which have not got licence to operate?
Mr. Creech Jones: All such powers are in the possession of the Government under the Emergency Powers Regulations and the general legislation of the country.

PLACE OF SITTING (MESSAGE FROM THE KING)
Message from His Majesty brought up, and read by Mr. SPEAKER (all the Members of the House being uncovered), as follows:
It is His Majesty's pleasure that on Monday the 25th day of October next, or on such other day as may be notified to both Houses of Parliament as convenient for closing this session, the House of Commons shall meet in St. Stephen's Hall. And it is His Majesty's further pleasure that, on the day to which Parliament shall thereafter stand prorogued, the House of Commons shall again meet in St. Stephen's Hall; and that as soon as conveniently may be after His Majesty has delivered his speech to both Houses of Parliament, the chamber at present assigned to the House of Commons as their place of sitting shall be again made ready for their occupation.
GEORGE R.
Message to be considered Tomorrow. —[Mr. H. Morrison.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Whiteley.]
3.45 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): Three matters have been raised which I desire to deal with to-day. The first is the question of the German Generals. I wish to inform the House regarding the four German Field-Marshals—Von Brauchitsch, Von Rundstedt, Von Manstein and Colonel-General Strauss—now awaiting trial in Germany. In delivering the judgment of the Court in October, 1946, Lord Justice Lawrence, as he then was, President of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, stated that there was clear and convincing evidence that many of the German General Staff were not only guilty of planning and waging an aggressive war, but also of "committing war crimes and crimes against humanity." He added: "where the facts warranted it, these men should be brought to trial, so that those among them who are guilty of these crimes should not escape punishment." The four German officers I have named had been taken into British custody as prisoners of war in the Summer of 1945, but at the time of the Nuremberg judgment, no evidence as to their complicity in war crimes was in the possession of the British authorities.
Following the Nuremberg judgment, the United States authorities set up an executive for the purpose of bringing to trial certain groups of war criminals, and during the investigations and screening activities of this body, a great many captured documents were examined, at Nuremberg, Washington and elsewhere. Among these was a large body of documents indicating the responsibility of the four officers for various grave crimes, and in August, 1947, the chief of the executive forwarded a memorandum summarising the evidence which they had obtained against these officers, and, at the same time, calling attention to the passage in the Nuremberg judgment to which I have already referred. In October, 1947, after consideration of this memorandum, it was decided to ask the United States authorities to include these four officers in the trials which they were then preparing of certain other members

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of the General Staff at Nuremberg. At the end of November, 1947, a reply was received from the United States authorities in Germany, that they were unable to comply with this request as they had completed the indictment, and to have included the four officers at that stage would have delayed the opening of the cases which had been prepared.
A meeting of Ministers was, therefore, held in December, 1947. My noble Friend the Lord Chancellor advised that the memorandum of evidence prepared by the United States authorities disclosed a prima facie case against each of the four officers. Whereupon, it was decided that steps should be taken to obtain the evidence itself and to proceed to bring them to trial. A great deal of further investigation and preliminary work had to be undertaken, and, in the meantime, a doubt arose as to whether the officers were fit for trial, in view of their age and medical condition. A series of medical boards, therefore, examined the officers, and it was finally reported by the Director-General of the Army Medical Services, in consultation with the Medical Officers to the Home Office, in April, 1948, that three of the officers were fit to take their trial, but, at that time, the fourth was not.
His Majesty's Government accordingly decided that the necessary steps should be taken to obtain the actual evidence on which the United States memorandum had been based, together with any other evidence which might be available, and that if the evidence warranted it, the four officers should be brought to trial before a British Military Tribunal in Germany, subject to the fitness of any of their number to stand his trial being dealt with at the time in accordance with the principles which would apply under our ordinary criminal procedure in this country.
Mr. Pickthorn: The right hon. Gentleman has been extremely good in giving us the exact date of each subject, and I am sure the House is extremely grateful to him. On the last subject he omitted the date. If he has not that date, well and good; but if by any chance he has it I should be grateful if the House could have it now.
Mr. Bevin: I have not got that exact date with me. I will send and get it.
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At the end of July, therefore, the four officers were returned to Germany, where they are now kept in military custody. I am informed that there are no restrictions on them beyond those necessary for their safe custody, and that they are in fact housed in a hospital. They have been demilitarised in the same way as any other prisoners of war who have been returned to Germany, in order to comply with the quadripartite agreement on the disbandment of the Wehrmacht. The same practice was adopted with military officers amongst the major war criminals tried before the International Military Tribunal, and with all members of the German Armed Forces who in the course of the last three years have been tried as war criminals by either British or United States courts.
The United States authorities themselves had registered cases against three of the officers with the United Nations' War Crimes Commission early in 1947. The Polish authorities had registered cases against three of them in December, 1944, and in December, 1947, they requested His Majesty's Government to hand over two of them for trial by a Polish court. This request was declined as the question of their trial by a British military tribunal was then under consideration. The Russian authorities in Germany asked the British Commander-in-Chief and Military Governor to hand over two of them in March, 1948; but this request was declined as they were not in the custody of the British Commander-in-Chief and Military Governor at that time.
It should be added, however, that His Majesty's Government were under an obligation to hand over alleged war criminals, against whom a clear prima facie case existed, to the Governments of the countries in which their crimes had been committed, unless it was intended to try them before a British tribunal. The decision of His Majesty's Government was taken purely on the merits of the case after being advised that there was a prima facie case against them; and—this is very important—since some of their subordinates had already been tried and convicted of offences which might be proved to have resulted from their orders, His Majesty's Government felt it essential in the interests of justice that further steps should be taken to bring them to trial if the evidence warranted it.

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As I have previously explained, the actual evidence is still being collated and examined, and for this reason the charges against the four officers have not yet been finally formulated. The officers have, however, each been given a notice outlining the general nature of the charges, and they have been informed that they will receive notice of the charges, as finally formulated, in due time to enable them to prepare their defence. They have all four acknowledged receipt of this notice. The case of these four officers will be the last to be brought before a British military tribunal in Germany. A number of other cases are still being tried but none has been started since 31st August. It has also been decided that the military Governor will only sanction any further applications for extradition in the case of a person against whom a clear prima facie case is made out of murder as defined in the German penal code, but not otherwise. That is the statement I have to make on the German generals.
Mr. Stokes: May I ask my right hon. Friend a question to which I was promised an answer yesterday? It is this: Is it or is it not true that at one stage the War Office doctors pronounced all the generals concerned as unfit to stand their trial?
Mr. Bevin: I should like to have notice of that question.
Mr. Stokes: It was given yesterday.
Mr. Crawley: Might I ask my right hon. Friend—
Mr. Bevin: Just a minute. I am not quite certain of all four. There were some, and we referred them—as we do for a corporal or a private—to the medical board.
Mr. Paget: Is there any reason why these men should not be given bail while they are awaiting their trial? They have now been incarcerated for three years; surely it is time that they were given bail while awaiting trial?
Mr. Bevin: If every poor prisoner was incarcerated in the same way as these men have been he would not have much complaint.
Mr. Stokes: But it is three years.
Mr. Bevin: I must say, I do not understand this protest. I regret the delay
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in bringing them to trial. That I acknowledge. I think it should have been done earlier. But it is a very awkward thing to put a Minister in the position of sanctioning the trials of people who carried out somebody else's orders and not sanctioning the trials of the people who gave the orders. That is the situation which I, as Minister responsible for Germany, could not bring myself to adopt.
The second statement I have to make, before I get on to Germany, is in relation to Palestine. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) in his speech last week raised the question of Palestine. At that time we were not in a position to give him an answer because we were aware that the Mediator, under the directions of the Security Council, was considering the whole matter. Since that time a very tragic event has taken place—the assassination of Count Bernadotte. I should like to begin by paying a warm personal tribute, which I am sure is shared by the whole House, to the great humanitarian services which he rendered in his life to the Red Cross and elsewhere. His lifetime of disinterested service to humanity was an example to all those working in the cause of peace.
The assassination of Count Bernadotte and Colonel Serot—a French officer who had rendered distinguished service in the French Army and in the Resistance Movement—has shocked the world, and it is felt particularly by the people of this country who have themselves suffered from similar crimes. Those responsible have placed themselves on trial before the world. The object of those who committed this crime was, no doubt, to prevent Count Bernadotte's task of mediation being brought to a successful completion, and the best way for us to commemorate his death is to complete his work on the basis of the proposals which he put forward just before his death. The outline of the proposals will be known to hon. Members from the summaries which have appeared in the Press, but I am arranging for a copy of the whole report and proposals to be available in the Library.
At this point I would recall the fact that it was mainly on the initiative of the United Kingdom Delegation to the United Nations that the appointment of a mediator was approved, with the terms of reference which have resulted in the

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work which Count Bernadotte has done to supervise the truce, and now to put forward these proposals. Anyone who makes proposals about Palestine always arouses criticism and disappointment, and has always done so in the past. We do not expect that either side will welcome these proposals in toto; but the world cannot wait for ever for the parties to agree; it is now time, in the view of His Majesty's Government, for a final solution to be found by the United Nations.
His Majesty's Government have carefully studied these proposals, and they believe that the conclusions must be considered as a single integrated plan, and that it would be best for all concerned that this plan should be put into operation in its entirety. The recommendations of Count Bernadotte, therefore, have the whole-hearted and unqualified support of His Majesty's Government. The House will have seen from the Press that a similar view has already been expressed by Mr. Marshall on behalf of the United States Government. This problem cannot be solved by polemics. It is our hope that the United Nations will lose no time in throwing the full weight of their authority behind these proposals, but there are two particular points to which I should like to call attention.
Count Bernadotte refers in his report to the apprehension of the Arabs about future Jewish expansion, and concludes that every reasonable assurance must be offered them, not only by the Jews but by the United Nations. I have always felt that the Arab case has been insufficiently appreciated, and I entirely agree that the United Nations should give special guarantees. In one other matter I would insist on the unity of Count Bernadotte's conclusions even more emphatically than he did himself. He recommended that the Arab areas of Palestine, or the greater part of them, should be incorporated in Trans-Jordan, but he suggested that the final decision might be left to the Arab States. In the past, when His Majesty's Government have considered this problem they have always been faced with the difficulty that the Arab parts of Palestine by themselves, which are an unfertile area, would not form a viable state.
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We therefore believe that the United Nations should avoid the risk of creating a State which could not support itself and should therefore endorse the Mediator's arguments in this matter. Count Bernadotte's recommendations about the treatment of Arab refugees deserve the most urgent study and action by the United Nations. The situation of these refugees is a great human tragedy. The measures which Count Bernadotte initiated before his death, and which his organisation are carrying on, provide only for their immediate needs. There is the vital long-term problem which requires the concerted efforts of all the nations to solve.
Finally, I would urge all those concerned in the Middle East to study Count Bernadotte's proposals calmly and seriously and to lay aside all the influence of extremist propaganda. Though I cannot anticipate that either party will spontaneously express their acceptance of the plan, I would urge them, with all the strength at my command, to acquiesce in it and do nothing to upset it or prevent its implementation. We for our part are determined to do everything we can to see these recommendations brought to fruition. In the past, we have been slanderously accused of encouraging the use of force to settle the Palestine problem. Ideclare categorically that we have never done anything of the kind and that we never will do so. We are resolutely opposed to any attempt to prolong the present instability or to secure any other settlement by force or threat of force. The influence of His Majesty's Government is placed squarely behind the Mediator's recommendations.
Major Legge-Bourke: May I ask if His Majesty's Government's acceptance of Count Bernadotte's recommendations involves recognition of Israel, and, if so, will the right hon. Gentleman give an unqualified assurance that before any such recognition is contemplated, he will insist on the release of the two British subjects at present held in Palestine and complete indemnification of them?
Mr. Bevin: The statement I have made does not involve recognition. It does involve the policy which the United Kingdom delegation must follow or be instructed to follow at the United Nations.

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We shall see what emerges from that, and in the next stage we shall have to consider subsequent developments.
I have now to turn to Germany. There are several matters which Members have been good enough to indicate to me they desire to be mentioned in this statement. There is the problem of reparations, the problem of Western Germany, the Moscow negotiations and the air lift. They have been the main problems which I have been requested to refer to in this statement, and I propose to try to give the House as much information as I can. I have from time to time dealt with the problem of Germany in this House, and I think Members are very well acquainted with the steps that have been taken to develop that country after the terrible war we passed through. But it may be wise to give just a slight background to the present situation.
Let me simply recall that not long after the beginning of the Six Power talks in London, which were initiated owing to the impossibility of agreeing with Russia or of getting Russia to agree on the future of Germany, the Soviet authorities in Germany began to impose an increasing number of restrictions on the movement both of goods and personnel to and from Berlin. In spite of all this interference and of many other petty annoyances, we proceeded to carry out the decision of the London Conference. One of the steps which had been necessary for a long time was currency reform. A good deal of disappointment had been caused in this House because we did not carry it out earlier.
We had been trying to obtain Four-Power agreement on the conditions governing its introduction in all zones. We failed, and we decided to reform the currency in our own zones. When we did this we had no intention of interfering in any way with the Soviet currency in Berlin, and we are still prepared to have the Soviet mark as the sole currency in Berlin provided that it is dealt with under quadripartite authority. If we dealt with it in any other way it would mean that we should be subject to pressure just as serious as the blockade, and our administration could be paralysed. There, too, it proved impossible to obtain Soviet agreement to a uniform currency in Berlin under this condition.
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We were thus faced with a difficulty, and we accordingly proceeded with the introduction of our own separate currency in the Western sectors of Berlin. In my statements to the House on 30th June and on 29th July I made clear the claims of the three Governments regarding their juridical rights as occupying Powers in Berlin. The initial justification advanced by the Russians for this interference and for the imposition of restrictions was based on technical grounds. It was only later that the Soviet Union came more into the open and asserted that they had been compelled to take this action by our introduction of currency reform.
On 24th June the Soviet authorities, still speciously arguing that technical difficulties were the cause, announced the imposition of further restrictions which effectively completed the blockade of Berlin. What is the assumption behind this act? What did the Soviet have in, their minds? There had been a careful' calculation of food stocks and an estimate made of our ability to feed Berlin under this blockade. It was clearly assumed by them that in a few weeks we should be in such difficulties that we should have to abandon Berlin, that starvation could he imposed so quickly, and disorder in the city fomented so easily, that our position would not be tenable. The Western Powers, after consultation, determined to do everything in their power to prevent these terrible intentions from ever being fulfilled.
The problem of surmounting the blockade has been formidable, and has been a very gallant and worthy piece of organisation. The Western sectors of Berlin have a population of 24 million souls, and we had to devise means of supplying them, exclusively by air, with food, fuel, raw materials and the other necessities of life. I am convinced that there were very few people—I doubt if there were many people in this House—who thought it would be possible to mount an air lift on a scale large enough to meet these commitments. What the British and the United States Air Forces have achieved, in ordinary conditions of peace, can be compared with some of the higher exploits of the war, and we have every reason to be proud of them.
What was the effect of all this? It showed conclusively that the people of

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Berlin did not want to fall into dependence upon Soviet Russia, since they knew that this was the first step to subjection. They responded to the efforts we were making with a sense of relief. Life is hard and difficult for them, but I am bound to say that they have stood it very well. Moreover, their reaction has dismayed and upset the calculations of those who thought we would be out of Berlin in a few weeks and who, in defiance of their international agreements, attempted to dislodge the Western Allies from the rightful position which they held under the agreement for the surrender of Germany.
May I tell the House what has been accomplished by this air lift and the prospects for the future? During the last three months the United States authorities and ourselves have delivered over 200,000 tons of essential freight to the people of Berlin. The American share is 60 per cent. of this, and ours is about 40 per cent. British aircraft have flown 20,000 sorties, and over 6 million miles. Stocks of most of the essential commodities in the Western sectors, including coal, are, I am glad to say, greater in many cases than they were in June, when the blockade was introduced. Looking to the future, the three Foreign Ministers have met in Paris. The United States Foreign Minister and myself in particular, whose Governments are in the main finding the aircraft for this purpose, have examined the air lift capacity for the coming winter.
While I cannot go into great detail— and I am sure the House would not ask me to go into detailed figures; it is not in the public interest to do so at this moment—I can say that if this senseless blockade continues, if there is no let-up, and the worst comes to the worst, we are confident, after careful examination of all the factors, and basing our calculations on the most pessimistic estimate of the weather—that by a combination of the two Air Forces, augmented, I am happy to say, by a tremendous effort on the part of the United States, we shall be able to see the winter through, although there will be some discomfort for the Berlin people. As I have said, for the first three months the British contribution has been 40 per cent. From now on 'the United States share will increase.
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They are bringing in great C. 54s which, instead of carrying 2½ tons, carry 10 tons per lift. The number of these aircraft will be increased.
I know the House is waiting for a report from me on the whole course of the talks with Generalissimo Stalin and Mr. Molotov in Moscow, and I crave the indulgence of the House because I have to disappoint it. The stage has not been reached in which it has been made possible to make a release. We are engaged in close consultation. We have examined statements and counter-statements, and we are still working on this matter and shall be continuing our consultation in Paris during the coming week. I am, therefore, unable to go into detail at this stage. The presence of the three Foreign Ministers in Paris has enabled us to undertake a careful personal examination both of the details of the conversations and, what is more, to consider the blockade. We have called our advisers back to go into all its implications, to study the whole strategy, and anything we may have to do to counter the blockade or to counter other measures which may be taken to weaken our position in Berlin.
Our position at this moment is as it was when I addressed the House on 29th July—that is to say, we regard the lifting of the blockade as an essential condition on which any settlement must be based. We have stated our willingness to have the Soviet currency in Berlin provided it is subject to quadripartite authority and, in addition, we have asked for, and insisted on, Four-Power control over trade between Berlin and the Western zones.
I have noticed in the Press and elsewhere that there have been rumours of disagreement between the three Western Powers, but I can assure the House that not only are we in absolute agreement as to the policy of the air lift, and about defending ourselves in Berlin, but also on the policy we shall jointly pursue if that fails. I am not, by that, saying that we are committed to war and all the other things that might ensue—we have not reached that stage yet but we have made provision to save Berlin from the worst effects, indeed, to minimise the effects, of the actions of those who thought out this dastardly scheme to put pressure on their Western Allies who stood in with them during the war. It is a poor reward so soon afterwards.

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I mentioned that I have been asked to deal with other subjects in addition to the air lift and the Moscow negotiations, and I now want to present to the House the brighter side of the picture, namely, the progress we are making in Western Germany. We have introduced currency reform. Hon. Members are aware of the prolonged efforts we made to reach agreement on the introduction of the reform on a Four-Power basis, and of the failure that followed. The issue of this new currency in the Western zone has met with remarkable success. Before its introduction money and wages had no longer any real value. Wages provided no incentive to work and prices were too high to give any encouragement to produce or sell. A large part of all available goods including food was sold in the black market.
All this has been changed. Money has a real value; consumer goods have come into the shops; manufacturers are producing and selling as much as they can; and the workers know that their pay packets can buy more of the things they need. I am glad to see that absenteeism has gone down and that the black market is nearly crippled. Coal production is nearer the level of 300,000 tons a day and a remarkable increase has occurred in steel production. It has risen from 377,000 tons a month prior to currency reform up to 510,000 tons in the month of August. This corresponds to a yearly rate of six million tons which is the desired figure in the 1948-49 European Recovery Programme. We are confident that we shall see a steady further increase in the coming months. If things go on as they are going now I think we shall see a rate of 10.7 million tons much earlier than we had anticipated.
The supply of food from the farms is much better and the food situation is much improved. The confidence of the people is being shown by the gradual increase in bank deposits and a revival of life insurance. This great financial operation has created difficulties for some sections of the community. That I acknowledge. It has not worked out with equal effect on all alike. Now that we see the problem our experts are taking steps to supplement it in a way that will equalise the burden on all sections of the community, and the necessary legislation is being prepared. Psychologically it has
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had a marked effect not only in Germany but over a much wider area than Germany. Those Members of the House and others who have visited Germany recently have told me of the immense change they have seen over the last year. Apathy has given way to a revival of hope, and I believe the German people are turning with new hope and fresh heart to the reconstruction of their country.
The next point in connection with Western Germany is the transfer of government to the German people. It is a very difficult thing to administer a foreign country. It is bad enough trying to administer one's own. It takes an enormous lot of debate and energy in this House to make a success of it. In any case, having to deal with a devastated country like Germany and to bring it back into healthy life, has, I can assure the House, been no mean task. We are, therefore, following the policy of transferring to the German people as fast as we can a large measure of responsibility. We believe that this is essential if democracy and responsible government are to develop on right lines.
I must again call attention to the results of the Six-Power Conference. This laid down certain basic principles to be observed in the framing of a democratic constitution. These provide for a governmental structure of a federal type which is best suited to the eventual re-establishment of German unity, and which will protect the rights of the participating States, provide adequate central authority and contain guarantees of individual rights and freedom. The Minister-Presidents of the States in their respective zones were authorised to convene a Constituent Assembly to draft such a constitution, and were informed that if the constitution did not conflict with the general principles laid down by the Military Governors, the latter could authorise its submission for ratification by each Land by means of a referendum. After careful study the German representatives accepted with some modifications the conditions presented to them.
On this basis a Provisional Constitution, to be called a Basic Law, is being fully and freely discussed by the Parliamentary Council in Bonn. I am hoping that their work will be completed without delay, and a provisional West German Government may be established

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early in the new year. While we are anxious to encourage this healthy political development in Western Germany we are still hoping that sooner or later a united German Government will be established, and nothing we are doing now or may do in the future will prejudice that.
In addition we have been engaged with our American and French friends in working out an occupation statute. The purpose of this statute is to define the relationship between the occupying Powers and the future governing body of Western Germany. The effect of it will be to give the German authorities maximum powers in all fields of government compatible with security and the basic requirements of the occupying Powers. The rapid and encouraging progress which is being made in Western Germany reflects not only the harmony between the three Allies, but also a growing sense of responsibility and leadership in the leading German political parties. The German leaders who are participating in this development are determined to safeguard the new constitution from any possibility of a return to a totalitarian conception of government, and after the most careful inquiries we are satisfied that they are supported in this by the German people.
The next point is the relationship of Germany to the European Recovery Plan. We were determined that Western Germany should play a part in regard to the Marshall Plan. As I have already explained to the House, Western Germany is part of the plan and will participate in the organisation for European economic reconstruction. The whole future of German economy is, therefore, being examined by us in relation to Europe as a whole.
One last question about which hon. Members are concerned in connection with Germany is that of reparations. Questions have been continually asked about it, and I desire to make our position as clear as I can, for it has caused very great concern. There are three principles connected with the question of reparations that must be borne in mind. The first is the industrial disarmament of Germany on the grounds of security; (2) the reparation to the Allies whose capital equipment and productive capacity had been damaged by Nazi
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aggression; and (3) the retention in Germany of sufficient plant to enable her to maintain a reasonable standard of life and to contribute appropriately to the rehabilitation of Europe. We have not departed from those principles, which were laid down in the days of the Coalition Government when we first examined this problem. We were never drawn into any punitive ideas like our friends on the Continent. This matter was dealt with by the Armistice and Post-War Committee when we were considering Germany's surrender, and while there were a good many punitive ideas we never adopted that attitude and neither have we since. The three principles which I have just mentioned were adopted in 1945 and they still remain the aims we hope to achieve.
For nearly three years we advocated a higher level of industry for Germany than any of our other Allies thought desirable. In 1947 we were unable to get agreement on the treatment of Germany as an economic whole. We worked out a revised level of industry plan for the British and the American zones of Germany. The House has had that plan placed before it. In a word, it was 10.7 million tons of steel production, which was a yardstick for other forms of production in Germany. The previous agreement was 5.6 million tons. At one period, an even lower figure than that was suggested by some of our Allies.
When this 10.7 million tons was arrived at, we naturally had to work out what plants were surplus. It was on that basis that we laid our plans for the removal of surplus capital equipment, for the benefit of countries devastated by the war and who were entitled to receive reparations. It was not as much as these countries deserved to receive, having regard to the losses they had suffered, but it was as much as it was prudent for them to expect, given the importance of a healthy German economy to the future of Germany. What we have left in Germany we regard as essential to achieve that purpose.
Now, new problems have arisen. In the name of the European Recovery Programme, plans made for reparations over a year ago are now being called into question. As the bulk of this reparation has to come from the British zone it is very embarrassing for us, because there is

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relatively very little of this work to be done in either the American or the French zones.
I know it is argued that to pull down plant in Germany and at the same time to build up production so as to make Europe more self-supporting seems contradictory, but there is no real inconsistency in it. Take the economic side first. In spite of all these problems, Germany's industrial capacity today is in excess of Germany's peace-time needs. She cannot regain even normal peace-time production levels for some time, owing to lack of manpower and disorganisation. I would remind the House that there are large sections of industry not affected by the reparations programme, which are lying idle or are working at half strength. I would stress that. It is assumed, because we see a building pulled down that we are just destroying Germany's capacity, but a number of other works are operating at only half strength, or are not working at all, which could be used elsewhere.
The removal of plant surplus to Germany's peace-time requirements will not affect the peace-time production of those things which Germany and Europe so badly need. We have to take into account the enormous intensification of production which went on under the Hitler regime. On the contrary, it may help to concentrate production and make for efficiency. There are plants now standing idle which Germany will never be able to put to effective use. If removed for reparations to other countries they can be utilised in a short time. We consider that, in the interests of Western Europe, such plants should be put to that use, to replace those which were destroyed in the war. From the point of view of Germany itself, there is no doubt that the sooner the reparations question is finally settled and the plants due for removal are taken away, the sooner will German industry get into its new and proper stride. That is why we deplore that this conflict has been going on for so long.
I must point out that there may be a few plants here and there which, because of certain shortages which have come to light in the last 12 months, might be more useful left in Germany. In these special cases we have always agreed to re-examine the problem in the light of the needs of the European Co-
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operation Act, but we do not regard the complete overhaul of the reparations level as essential. We have indicated our willingness to the United States Government to look at it, but we have always to keep in mind, as hon. Members saw the other day when the protest came from the I.A.R.A. countries—the other countries entitled to receive reparations —that their recovery was being delayed.
Therefore, in conclusion, I hope that, notwithstanding the gravity of the Berlin situation, this House will keep the whole question of Germany and Central Europe in their minds and in their thinking. I am sure and we have seen indications of it in the Press this morning—that there will be quite a number of manoeuvres to upset the Western Allies in Germany and in Western Europe. We are going to have a terrific lot of propaganda, but we are firmly resolved to go on with our policy. I trust we shall have the wholehearted support of the House and the nation in doing it, because I am convinced that it is essential for peace and for our security for many years to come.
In dealing with the people who are contesting against us now, we cannot buy peace. It reminds me of 1940, after Dunkirk. I think hon. Members will remember it. The Prime Minister at that time was discussing the position that we were in, and he said: Whatever you give, wherever you go to meet the demands of the Nazis, you cannot settle them. He was right. In the present case, to try going any further than we have done in making concessions of territory or anything else does not satisfy the demands. There is the conflict. We have to make our own position firm and secure. Berlin stands out as a symbol of resistance, a sort of salient. So far as I am concerned, I felt when that blockade was put on that a great choice had to be made. We made it. It was either to stand firm there or turn south and go to another Munich. That was the issue with which we were faced.
I believe that East and West have to live together. I am ready to live together. I am ready to say: "You live in peace in the territory you have got."
Hon. Members: In the territory you have got?
Mr. Harold Davies: Why not?
Mr. Bevin: Well, "Live in peace in the area you have got," if you like. I am not talking about any particular frontiers or anywhere else. I did not mean to draw any precise line. Certainly not. What I say is, "Let us settle that, if you like," but to settle a line, only to find that the next morning you wake up to demands, revolutions, stirrings of your people and upsetting of your institutions, and everything else to promote an expansion at a very cheap price without war, is a situation which, whoever occupies these benches, could not, I am certain, accept in the name of Great Britain.
It is common ground that we want to fight nobody. We have made probably the greatest sacrifice of any nation in the world for our recovery. I know that parties opposite may claim that they would do it better this way or that, but I think all are bound to acknowledge that the British people—the ordinary common man with all the disturbances of war, with all the devastation caused by the war, with all the lack of housing and lack of amenities and very often insufficient food—have made a gallant effort to rebuild their independence and re-establish themselves. Indeed, in proportion to their wealth and in proportion to what they had to give, they have given equally with, if not greater than, any other nation in the world in the last three years. A nation like that deserves to survive. It shall survive whatever happens.
4.41 p.m.
Mr. R. A. Butler: We are all glad to see the right hon. Gentleman returned from Paris especially for this Debate on a day on which he asked that it should be held. But we realise the great discomfort that must have been entailed in his coming back and then having to return immediately. I might also say before I make some rather definite remarks about the situation in Germany, that I think the whole House was behind the right hon. Gentleman in his peroration. If that represents the policy of His Majesty's Government, I think he can go back to Paris and tell them there that we shall back him to put that sort of policy through.
I want to deal for a moment with Palestine before I say some specific things on behalf of the Opposition about
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Germany. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) has already expressed his horror at the murder of the Mediator and our sympathy has been expressed by him. Why this was allowed to happen after the warnings that had been given we cannot understand, and we trust that the perpetrators of this crime will be found and speedily punished. The right hon. Gentleman says not only he but also the American Secretary of State has decided to support the general lines of the Mediator's report. My right hon. and hon. Friends and I myself have only had the opportunity to read summaries of this report in the Press, and I should like to make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman—perhaps the Under-Secretary when he replies would give us the answer —that this report should be published as a White Paper so that hon. Members might read it. We are meanwhile obliged for the fact that a copy will be in the Library.
In regard to the report as a whole, we clearly have preliminary reactions, and if I may speak for myself I would say that the report would appear to provide a basis for a settlement. It appears to be a realist document, the details of which we should now like to study. We note that there are some changes in the boundaries proposed, particularly in regard to the Nejeb which is to go to the Arabs, and we note that Galilee is to go to the Jews. We are in some doubt whether the proposals about Arab refugees returning to the Jewish State will work out in practice, and we consider that this aspect of the report will require further study by ourselves, together with the various other recommendations which it contains.
But I should like to say that from what I have seen of the report, the Mediator is right in asking for an immediate United Nations Commission to proceed to Palestine and he is right to use the words that the Security Council must stand firm according to their resolution of 15th July that military action is not employed by either party in the dispute. If this the case the United Nations must now, after this tragedy of the death of the Mediator, show a little more strength, a little more purpose and a little more drive in solving this matter. I therefore trust that the right hon. Gentleman, who

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has given us an indication of his views at the earliest possible moment, will return to Paris and that his return will result in the United Nations addressing to this question more energy and determination than they have hitherto.
Now I return to the central theme of Germany. I say at once that we understand that the right hon. Gentleman cannot announce final decisions upon the recent talks before further discussions have taken place with his colleagues with whom he is discussing these matters. Nevertheless, I must emphasise the growing disquiet which exists in the country about the possible outcome of these talks. This is largely due to the lack of information which prevails. The public is asked to follow the results of these talks according to the smile on the face of one or other of the negotiators as they emerge from the chamber where they have been talking, and according to all sorts of gossip which is being put about. There is no wonder, therefore, that even during the right hon. Gentleman's absence in Paris there have been rumours which he was obliged to deny in his speech today. I should like to say at once that we are very glad to hear from him that there is no difference of opinion between himself and the other Foreign Secretaries with whom he has been discussing these matters. We note that with pleasure and thank him for giving us that information.
The Opposition are right to register the growing doubts which exist about the situation. On 30th July the Foreign Secretary hoped for a progressive solution of the difficulties which had arisen. Now towards the end of September we find, in the words of Jeremiah:
"The harvest is past, the summer is ended and we are not saved."
Meanwhile the long-drawn-out talks are to continue. The Foreign Secretary also said on 29th July that His Majesty's Government could not be expected to negotiate under duress, that is to say, under the conditions which have been created by the Soviet Government. What distresses us is that a large part of these negotiations has in fact been carried on under what we must call duress. Certainly it appears that the Russian plans immediately we introduced our currency reform into the Berlin Sector showed every sign of careful preparation beforehand.
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What we want to get clear as a result of this Debate—restricted as I must be, as the right hon. Gentleman was, in discussing the actual talks themselves—is not so much whether a technical agreement could be reached on currency, access to Berlin, trading questions or anything else; but the question as to whether the Russians intend to honour any agreement made. We are at the present moment in the most grave and uneasy situation—it would be difficult to imagine one more difficult—and the key to the difficulties seems to me to be found in the campaign which the Russians have run, parallel to the talks which have been taking place in the Kremlin or elsewhere, deliberately designed to incite chaos and mob rule in Berlin itself. No doubt I can talk more frankly than the right hon. Gentleman was able to talk today in regard to Soviet tactics. [An HON. MEMBER: "And incite more."] Perhaps the hon. Member will listen to the whole of my speech and then he will be able to form a general impression of our attitude on this side.
It appears to us that General Sokolovsky's conduct fits into the picture completely. It is hard to find grounds for any belief that the Moscow authorities are seriously disposed to contemplate the Allies in Berlin as equals and as of right. It is most important for us in this House today to stress the fact of the right we have to be in Berlin under treaty. One cannot understand, if my diagnosis is not correct, why the City Assembly's meetings have been broken up, the City Assembly unfortunately being in the Soviet sector; why arrests have taken place of members of the official German police after the grant of Russian safe conduct; why Draconian sentences have been imposed on youths, undefended in court, involved in rioting at the Brandenburg Gate; and why there has been disrespect not only towards the German but also towards Allied officials. All this seems evidence of the Russian aim to undermine and destroy what remains of the elected German administration, as well as the prestige of the Western Powers. We have also seen Press reports, which the Under-Secretary might be able to confirm or otherwise, that the Soviet is increasing its grip on the whole of the Eastern zone, and is introducing measures to arm its police and to organise the Communist youth on commando lines.

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Such is the background against which it was evidently expected that it would be possible to reach some accommodation, but I should not be presenting a fair picture if I did not take up the right hon. Gentleman's own words and say that we have derived one immense asset from the recent conduct of affairs in Germany as a whole. I refer to the reaction of the German people themselves. Both in the Western sectors of Berlin and in Western Germany as a whole, the reaction of the people has been far-reaching. For some time now my right hon. Friends and myself and hon. Members on this side have pressed for a more active policy in Western Germany. We have had several debates, and at last we are seeing the result of some of our pressure in the improved policy and improved results to which the right hon. Gentleman referred today.
But what I want to say to the House is that the very fact that there is so strong a reaction on the part of the German people in favour of a Western German form of Government as against the unity of Germany, for example, and the fact that there is such a strong reaction against Communism and all that it means, imposes on us a great new obligation. Because, if anything were to go wrong in Germany or in Berlin in particular, it is quite obvious that there would be violent reprisals against those who have so strongly been taking the view that they have.
One important aspect of this revulsion of feeling is the greater readiness of German political leaders to co-operate in proposals for a West German Government. All hesitations do not appear to have vanished, according to the information that we can obtain, but we welcome the successful opening of the Constituent Assembly at Bonn on the prescribed date and the attendance of the Berlin representatives. Another stimulus is the currency reform. Although it would appear to us from General Clay's monthly report for July that certain heavy industries such as coalmining are still suffering from the general shortage of money, nevertheless the introduction of the currency reform has been on the whole a great improvement.
The Western Powers must never allow themselves to be held back or prejudiced
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in any way in regard to the policy in Western Germany which is now being pursued. I only want to mention a rumour I have seen, published by the London correspondent of "Le Monde" on 3rd September, that it is the idea that the success in Western Germany shall conceal and cloak a "slow retreat" of the British and Allied Forces from Berlin—I only want to mention that rumour to say that I trust the Government will repudiate it as indignantly as we do.
The Foreign Secretary devoted a short part of his speech to the question of reparations or dismantling, or whatever else we like to call it. I have no intention of taking on the rôle of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) in this matter because I feel that this is his perquisite, and no doubt he desires shortly to address the House. It is an extremely complicated question. The proposal to curtail dismantling occurs definitely in the European Recovery Act, and we have the advantage of the views of Mr. Hoffman on this matter. There would appear to be a slight discrepancy between the views there expressed and the views expressed here today by the Foreign Secretary. On the other hand, Mr. Rueff, the head of the Inter-Allied Reparations Agency, recently protested that the Agency had not had the amounts due, and requested deliveries to the Allies to be hastened.
I, therefore, think that the clearest expression of opinion we can give from this side today is to say that some finality must be brought into this question. I do not think it is so uncomplicated as to say that we can take a simple line, 7
but I do say that some finality should be brought into the question and that it should not drag on indefinitely. The Minister of State said on 30th June in
this House:
"… there can be no suggestion that we have discriminated against German production in favour of British trade."
He went on to say:
"… it should be known that it has already been agreed and is being acted upon that no destruction of property shall take place unless it is specifically of military construction; anything else which is useful to the economy of Germany is in the meantime being left"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th June, 1948; Vol. 452, c. 2340.]
That, I think, can only be explained if we take it that the latter words referred

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to the destruction of property part of the reparations problem and not to the problem as a whole. But the words to which I wish to draw the attention of the House are these:
"… there can be no suggestion that we have discriminated against German production in favour of British trade."
I should like the Under-Secretary to give us a further answer to certain questions which have been put in this House by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy) with reference to unemployment in the German clock-making industry as a result of discrimination in favour of French, or was it British, interests? If the Under-Secretary would give us an undertaking that such things are not likely to occur in the future, if he will also give us an undertaking that this question of reparations and dismantling is to be brought to a speedy conclusion, then I think we can feel happier on this matter.
Before I discuss what next steps we can take I want to say one word about the German generals. The redeeming feature of the statement of the Foreign Secretary on the German Generals was that he has himself acknowledged and owned up about the delay which has taken place, and he has with great frankness stated the dates upon which the various events occurred. We are astonished at the delay which has taken place which we think to have been quite unnecessary. The earliest date he mentioned was a Polish date of 1944, but there are dates in 1947 which ill chime in with any idea that this matter has been conducted with despatch or decency. I do not doubt that further observations will be made on this matter in the course of this Debate.
I now want to devote the remaining portion of my remarks—which, in the circumstances of the Foreign Secretary's speech cannot be as extended as they might otherwise have been—to a discussion of the next steps we may take. I think it is necessary for us to have in our minds some appreciation of Russian motives. My right hon. Friends and I, and hon. Members on this side of the House, do not wish to see British policy conducted and inspired by the view that war is immediately inevitable. That is why I gave the immediate reaction I did on behalf of my friends to the concluding words of the right hon. Gentleman
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himself. However, we are equally determined so to comport ourselves that in the event of Russian policy leading to a clash we are ready. It is an almost impossible game, as hon. Members opposite know better than I do, to attempt to give any indication of what one thinks Russian policy may be.
Certain wise people consider that it is the Soviet desire to seal off their frontiers, to consolidate their immense glacis of satellite States which, since the death of Lenin and contrary to his advice, they have considered necessary to obtain their security—to consolidate all that they have gained and to conduct a policy of Imperial defence. The trouble to our minds, however, is that this game is indistinguishable from virtually unlimited Imperialist aggression. What is clear at any rate, whatever be the motives of the Russians, is that we must develop and show our strength.
I do not believe that the Russians, either in this particular incarnation or in previous periods in their history, have taken the same view of conferences or negotiations which we are apt to take. They very often regard these comings together as occasions for propaganda. They see in them an opportunity to push Russian views and demands as far as possible. They tend to work out their plans in advance and have less spirit of accommodation or compromise than we are accustomed to in running our affairs.
These are fundamental differences which I believe occur and are not necessarily criticisms of any particular method. But of one thing I am convinced; results are only achieved according to the strength or weakness shown by those taking part in the discussions. What impression have the Russians obtained of what I might describe as the Allies at the present time? They have seen an apparent determination of Britain to draw in her horns under her present leadership. In this connection I ask the Government how far the present situation in Berlin justifies attempts to conclude further bargains with the Soviet which bring benefits to the Soviet Union—I refer in particular to the purchase by Russia of potential war materials, such as rubber from Malaya.
I think it is quite necessary to speak frankly on this occasion on such matters. The Soviet not only doubt the strength

919
of Britain, to which I shall refer later, but doubt whether firm action will be taken by the Americans before the result of the Presidential Election is known. They see too clearly the weakness of the French political situation and I think they see that we are building up our Western strength too slowly. Therefore, it seems, if one has to sum up one's views about the next steps to be taken, that our vital need is to show our strength and show it in such a way that it is realised by the other side. In my original remarks I had prepared some suggestions on the submission of our dispute to the United Nations —
Mr. Harold Davies: Would the right hon. Gentleman make that a little more explicit, that we must show our strength? I should like him to explain and make that a little more explicit.
Mr. Butler: That was the object of the concluding parts of my oration, which I will endeavour to address to the House. I was saying that the first step is the mobilisation of world opinion. There have been rumours in the Press that if this dispute is not settled this way or that, it might be submitted to the United Nations. Under the circumstances I will not go into that in detail, but will only say that one benefit which I think we can derive from such procedure would be the further mobilisation of world opinion. I must leave that matter, because we all hope that if accommodation is to be found it will be found.
The second step we must take is in defence and that is to be dealt with in the Defence Debate tomorrow, which I shall leave to my right hon. Friends and others to develop. The third step is as the right hon. Gentleman said to continue with the air lift. I calculate from figures I have been able to get that some 98,000 tons, or shall we say 100,000 tons, of coal and food particuarly, are wanted in Berlin per month. This figure is divided roughly into 66,000 tons of coal and 32,000 tons of food, provided that the potatoes and other heavy material are dehydrated and taken in in that way. I understand we have been able to take in 26,000 tons a week. If my arithmetic is correct, we have a very substantial balance over and above what is needed at the present time, but we have the winter before us. We also learn that another airfield is being con-
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structed in the French sector to make up for Templehof and Gatow which are being used almost overtime.
We can say that the Foreign Secretary's appreciation is reasonably correct and that it will be possible, but with discomfort to the German people, which we must not underestimate, to keep the air lift going over the winter months. But there is one aspect to which I have not been able to find an answer; that is the carrying of raw materials to German industry in the capital. I do not believe it will be possible. by the air lift to carry sufficient raw materials to keep all industry going in the capital itself. This is a matter upon which only the experts can give us a final opinion, but clearly the maximum effort must be put into the air lift with increased aircraft of large size and scale. This must be undertaken until the time when as of right we proceed down the autobahn, as undoubtedly we have the right to do.
The third step which I think we should take in developing our strength is a further development of the West. As the "Observer" said last Sunday:
"What seems to be lacking is not good intentions but the feeling of urgency."
As long ago as June, 1946, this matter was raised by us in debate and I personally asked for more definite steps to be taken in developing Western Union and our strength in the West. The Foreign Secretary on 22nd January of this year outlined the needs for developing this matter in the following ways; he mentioned that our relations with France and Benelux must' be brought closer. Western Union must be seen in its wider scope, including the Colonies of the European Powers. Economic and defence arrangements must be come to.
Since then advances have been made. We have the Brussels Treaty and our relations with France have been brought closer, while the matter to which the right hon. Gentleman attaches great importance, the arrangements of O.E.E.C., that is, the allocation of direct and indirect aid from American sources, have been agreed. I think any tribute which ought to be made to the British members who are taking part in such negotiations ought to be made from this Box at the present time. But this does not mean that we have progressed nearly fast

921
enough in the face of the menace in front of us. For example, we have still things to settle under O.E.E.C. There is the mechanism of the intra-European payments scheme which I think has not yet been brought into being. Nor have the principles of commercial policy which shall prevail while the payments scheme is functioning been worked out. What we further want to do, apart from the machinery to administer American aid, is to bring European economy into a more integrated whole and to provide a political and military shelter to balance the economic shelter provided by Marshall Aid.
Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: I think we are in danger in using these phrases. The right hon. Gentleman has just used one when he spoke of "a more integrated whole." Could he, from his side of the House, give a little more detail of what that means?
Mr. Butler: The hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) is in the same position as the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) was a little time ago. In each case I was about to proceed to answer the question in my next paragraph. It shows the beautiful logic with which I have arranged my remarks. I used this general phrase for the purpose of explaining it as shortly as possible in the next few minutes. Following the payments scheme, we want to see a currency agreement for Europe as a whole, and this is the first instance I give. As a second step we want to make arrangements to co-ordinate bilateral trade agreements, which are bound to be made in Europe, short of obtaining the customs union which, after the experiments of 1931, I think likely to be difficult to achieve in a short space of time. Thirdly, we want a scheme to ensure the non-wasteful use of capital resources and, fourthly, co-operation over plans for food production so that food is grown in the right areas and right amounts for the population of Europe.
Those are, put quite shortly, the four heads to which I think it would help us if the Foreign Secretary or the Under-Secretary would refer later in the Debate. They should indicate whether progress can be made on these particular paths.
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No doubt some economic council will be necessary which will have a more special duty than E.C.E. under the United Nations organisation. Its function would be to carry through these particular tasks. But in line with this economic development of the West we want to see much closer political and military understandings. I am not so simple as to say that if we are to get the nations of the West together they must be either in the magic numbers of 16 or six, a dilemma placed before us very conveniently and fairly in a recent leading article in the "New Statesman." I do not believe it is quite so simple as that. I do not think that we should necessarily adhere to the Brussels Pact, though that provides for the adherence of other nations to the Pact.
I believe that what we want is something wider by way of agreement between the nations of the West, something which will bring in for example, Italy, the "new Italy" referred to in the January Debate by the right hon. Gentleman; something which will interest Portugal and the Atlantic interests of that country, which have been so historically important for many years. Further, we want a policy which will tie together all those nations which are ready to enter into particular commitments which are vital at the present time if we are to have the strength of our convictions. Whoever makes this pact will need to widen it in such a way that it not only embraces the interests of all the nations bordering the Atlantic but also has regard to the strategic importance of the Iberian Peninsula and the Mediterranean itself.
Therefore, if we are to mobilise our strength in the way I have defined, we may find a definite power in the West which the Russians will understand, which will tie the European nations together while there is still time and which will fortify us. Mr. St. Laurent in Canada, asked us to get together in a pact of this sort, in which the Canadians and the Americans would themselves be interested. That is a development of British foreign policy which I am sure will help us most at the present time.
I have tried to give an indication of positive lines of future action. All this means a forward and active diplomacy, the acquisition of more strength which we shall see, I hope, in the discussions in the Defence Debate tomorrow, and the

923
deployment of that strength so that it is clearly realised by the world as a whole. Whether or not the future of Western civilisation is at stake, the future of Europe is certainly at stake. I do not wish Europe to be regarded from now as that sort of Balkan area of the world in which there are always troubles and of which the great statesmen of the great Powers are more afraid than anything else, which was the position in the Balkans for so long during the last century.
We want to fight, if necessary, to prevent Europe from falling under any new Communist Charlemagne. Yet the only alternative for free Europe at the present time is to save itself by its exertions and link up its exertions with its powerful friend and economic saviour, the United States of America. It is because we think that Britain can give a more dynamic and powerful lead that we urge the Foreign Secretary forward, now that, in the words I quoted earlier,
"The harvest is past, the summer is ended and we are not saved."
5.14 p.m.
Mr. Crawley: Before turning to the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech I would like to make an observation on the German generals. I rose when the Foreign Secretary was making his statement, because, in reply to my hon. Friend below the Gangway, he said that he would like to have notice of the question of whether these generals had been examined by War Office doctors. I put that Question on the Order Paper yesterday and I had assumed that it would have been passed on to the Foreign Secretary. He gave an answer which I would like to have time to study, but I wish to say as one who was himself a prisoner in Germany for four years and I am, therefore, able to compare German methods of dealing with courts martial and trials with the method which has been disclosed in these particular cases.
I am not one of those who have any very sentimental feelings towards the Germans. I know that they kept many prisoners for many years without trial, but in nearly every case, certainly in every case of which I know, there was at least a prima facie excuse for that in
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that these prisoners had been caught in civilian clothes and did not come under the official category of prisoner of war which is covered by the Geneva Convention. I was interpreter in a large camp and have reason to know of a good many such cases. But where official prisoners of war came before the Germans for court martial or in ordinary process as prisoners of war, the Germans carried out their trials with a good deal of despatch. If, through the Protecting Power, a protest was made, a delay of three, four or five months was considered a scandalous delay and action was taken.
The delay, whatever the causes of it, which the Foreign Secretary has so frankly admitted has taken place in this case, has made this trial repugnant to all of us, whatever our feelings about the Germans, and however true it is, and it is true, as the Foreign Secretary stated, that these men have responsibilities of a criminal kind. Nevertheless, after such a long delay, in view of the fact that they are old and broken men and have already spent more than three years as prisoners of war in peace time, I feel that this trial should be abandoned.
I throw out the suggestion made to me by a German who is quite unsentimental towards the Nazis, and who is now in a responsible position, that a statement of the charges against these men, and perhaps the findings of a committee which might sit without trying them in person, should be made for the benefit of the German people, and these old men should be allowed to go free. I hope that even at this stage it will be possible to follow that course. I think it will have a better effect on German opinion and world opinion than will a continuation of this trial.
To come to the main theme of the Debate, two or three days ago when it was clear that the talks in Moscow were breaking down, "The Times" remarked that the alternative before the Government was now plainly either a further approach to Moscow or reference of the matter to the United Nations. The Foreign Secretary, for very understandable reasons, has not been able to tell us what course of action is, in fact, to be taken but I wish to say that I hope that no further approach will be made at this point to Moscow. I know that some of my hon. Friends on this side of the

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House take the view that even at this stage, after the experience we have had for the last three years, what I have heard described as a really disinterested approach might once again be made. One must really ask oneself, "What do they mean in this case by being disinterested?"
After all, we have very real interests in the world at this time. Our fundamental interest is to try, difficult as it is, to recreate conditions, particularly in Europe, in which democracy may once again begin to grow. The only conceivable way of doing that is to get international treaties enforced, and where there are disputes about the interpretation of those treaties, to press one's point of view as firmly as possible, and where compromise is not reached to refer it to whatever courts of arbitration exist, in this case the United Nations. Ultimately, even if arbitration fails to be accepted, one must make up one's mind how to maintain one's point of view as firmly as anyone else is going to maintain theirs.
I cannot see that at this stage we have any evidence to show that the Russians are capable of understanding even the fact that there is another point of view. That seems to me to be the most baffling feature of this whole situation and in view of that, and in view of the fact that where they do not—and they never do—see another point of view they are incapable of compromise, and in each case exert all pressure by threats of force or the use of force that they find available to them, I cannot see that any approach by direct negotiation can serve any useful purpose. On the other hand, I do hope that the matter will be referred to the United Nations, either first through the Security Council or directly to the Assembly.
There are those who say that the legality of the cause of Russia is as strong as ours and if it is referred to the United Nations we may not come out of it very well. I would point out that the United Nations is not a court of law. One may argue the legality of a case which is in dispute as long as one likes, but the United Nations is an assembly of people who are there to judge not merely legality, but the motives and methods which nations are employing. If we were afraid to submit our case to the United Nations we should lose the whole of the moral superiority, the moral authority of our position. On the other hand, there
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are grave risks in doing that which we have to face. As I see it the chief risk is that the peoples of Western Europe, seeing yet another delay and another series of negotiations will begin to lose faith in the power of the Western democracies to hold their own in Europe. Therefore, at the same time as referring the matter to the United Nations it does seem to me very important that we should do all we can, as quickly as we can, to further the cohesion of Western Europe.
It is there that I should like to examine the case of the Opposition. The Government are being criticised both by Americans, by people on the Continent and by the Opposition for what is described as tardiness in progressing with the cause of Western Union. In answer to that I would like to ask some questions. The first question which I would ask, in no personal sense at all, but as a matter of great historical importance is why the Leader of the Opposition is not here at this vital moment? After all, he it is who was the torch-bearer, and indeed the self-appointed architect of this great plan for Western Europe. He has been described by his colleagues perfectly sincerely—and he has a great claim to the title—as the first European. There can surely be no moment at which new enthusiasm and new drive for the cause of Western Union is so vitally important as now, and we would expect at this time the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) either to be thundering to the peoples of Europe to try and stimulate enthusiasm for and bring understanding of the cause of Western Union, or to be sitting in his place in this House and denouncing the Government for that tardiness of which he has alleged by letter that he considers they are guilty.
I can think of no cause in which, in his life, the right hon. Gentleman has really believed which he would be content at such a crucial moment to leave merely to a letter. After all, his great forte is his personality and power of speech and I can only assume from this that in fact his belief in the idea has for some reason weakened. That seems to me to be further borne out by the speech of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and by the speech today of the right hon. Member for

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Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), because both of them have in the case of Western Union urged the Government in very general terms to proceed with Western Union but neither has made detailed suggestions. What in fact do they say? The other day the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington asked what progress was being made and said in a very few words that he regretted that a meeting had not been held to discuss the possibility of assembly. What did he go on to say? Did he mention any of the difficulties that are being met or suggest remedies? He did not. After all, this is not a Party matter, as he himself says, and therefore hon. Members opposite cannot fall back on the theory that it is not their duty to put forward constructive policies and suggestions. Not even the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden today, when he claimed he was being constructive, mentioned any of the real difficulties which the committees which are tackling this problem are meeting. Neither he nor his colleague ever put forward suggestions as to how these difficulties can really be met.
What in fact are the real difficulties which are being met in Western Europe? Of the very many let me take two. One of the things, if Western Europe is to thrive and to gain strength is the better use, as the right hon. Gentleman said, of our resources and particularly of our heavy industries. One of the needs which the Economic Commission for Europe under the United Nations pointed out is to increase the steel capacity. If steel capacity is to be increased not merely this year as the Foreign Secretary mentioned, but for the next few years, to the level which will enable Europe to revive at the quickest possible rate, then it is absolutely vital that both the German capacity should be increased beyond the figure of 10 million tons and that the British capacity should be increased above what it is now. In addition those two major steel industries should be jointly planned to a great measure, so that there is no overlapping of production.
That will inevitably involve very awkward adaptations in the British industrial structure, not merely within the steel industry itself. If we are to expand the steel industry which would involve the use of extra manpower we would have to
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draw that extra manpower from some other industries and perhaps retard the expansion of some other industries. Perhaps the industry which might suffer in this respect—and I am throwing out a difficulty without necessarily committing myself to a solution of it—is agriculture. If one looks at Europe as a whole and takes the agriculture position of Europe as a whole, it is very arguable, given the difficulty of moving and housing labour as between one country and another, that feedingstuffs that may be imported from the Western Hemisphere should to a greater extent be sent to Ireland or to France, where it is possible to get great increases in meat and other forms of food production, than that they should be sent here. Or again if European agriculture is to be treated as a whole, the tomato industry of France and Italy should be greatly expanded as compared with the tomato industry here, for which even now we are planning a special marketing scheme in order to expand it.
Those are the practical sort of difficulties which the committees really studying the possibility of co-ordinating European economy are meeting, and they obviously involve very difficult decisions in this country, both for employers who will have possibly to change the work which their factories are doing, and for agriculturists who may have to alter the type of things they are producing. But even more for trade unionists, who may have to ask their members to undertake different kinds of work. We have to make up our minds how far we are prepared to accept that sort of thing and how we are to explain it to the people and how far we are prepared to go in co-ordinating industry in Europe in that way.
In the past it has, I think, been true that the Opposition have been genuine about the defensive aspect of Western Europe but when I heard the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington the other day give his idea of what they now really want, I begin even to question how thorough they are even in that. What did he say? He said that what we all wanted was that the forces of the world should no longer be divided between two main Powers. He wanted this country and the Commonwealth with the nations of Western Europe to be able to assert their views independently either of the

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United States or of Russia. In other words, he was putting forward m a different guise the old idea of a third force. I wonder if he really meant what he said? I cannot believe that anybody opposite really believes that in the next generation, when obviously the struggle in the world will be for the survival of democracy, we are ever going to be in opposition in a military sense to the United States of America. Nor can I really believe that the right hon. Gentleman, when he said that, thought that it would be possible ever to persuade Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, for instance, to adopt a defensive military attitude independently of the United States of America.
Indeed, it is obvious that if Western Europe and Western civilisation is to survive, in the event of a clash, it is only with the armed support of America. To talk at this moment, when we are thinking of the next 10 years, of any policy which envisages independence of America in that way, which would mean vast sacrifices by all countries in Western Europe who are already exhausted, is surely nonsense. I, therefore, cannot understand what the Opposition intend in regard to Western Europe. Obviously, there are very great difficulties in building up a defensive system in Western Europe. There are the difficulties presented by the large Communist parties in certain countries and the difficulties of the principle of neutrality which other countries hold. We have heard nothing about those difficulties from the Opposition. We have had no suggestion about how we should tackle them and about how far we can have joint plans when there is danger of them being betrayed to the enemy. There have been no suggestions, even when we have joint plans, about how far we must be prepared to send arms and vital munitions and weapons of war across the seas to the continent to other countries who will have to meet an enemy first. Those difficulties are very great. It would be interesting to know the view of the Opposition on points of that kind.
The first message I should like to go out from this House in regard to Western Union, therefore, is that although there is no unanimity on the point of exactly how we can further it, any suggestion that it is the Labour Party which is backward in the matter of Western Union is
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absolutely the reverse of the truth. The fact is that the Conservative Party is in a difficulty. Their leader launched the idea, some of his followers took it up, but the great majority of them have never associated themselves closely with it at all. The reason is perfectly obvious. Western Union must involve an immediate threat to certain vested interests. All those who in their minds represent vested interests first are bound to be extremely cautious about it or antagonistic to it. It is my belief that the closer we get to the realities of Western Union the greater the opposition to it will be from the party opposite. That should be understood both by the Americans and by those on the continent.
I have two criticisms which I should like to make of the Government in regard to their policy of Western Union—
Mr. Beverley Baxter: I think perhaps the hon. Gentleman is confused about the attitude of some of us towards Imperial Preference. Is he styling that as vested interest, or does he mean something else? Would he say exactly what he means?
Mr. Crawley: Yes, I will say what I mean. It is exactly this. For instance, in the example which I gave, if we are to plan our steel industry jointly with other interests in Germany, we should find many people in the steel industry who, because this will affect their own concerns, will oppose such a wider planning and co-ordination of the industry as between this country and Germany. They may be perfectly genuine. As regards the Imperial attitude, that is another matter. It is rather the attitude of those who feel that Western Union is simply a matter of entangling themselves with a lot of foreigners whom they do not trust, and so on. It is completely blind to the fact that if Western Europe dissolves in chaos and becomes Communist then the independent future of this country is finished. I have never accepted that there is any real conflict of interest between the British Common-wealth and Western Union. Western Europe is vital to the future of the British Commonwealth though I do not think that the hon. Gentleman necessarily agrees with me.
I return to the two criticisms which I should like to make. Although I think that what the Government have done

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has been entirely on the right lines, they have not given sufficient publicity to the difficulties which they have met and, as a result, they have had a very bad Press throughout the world. The fact is that these negotiations in connection with the allocation of Marshall Aid and the better co-ordination of European economy have been going on amongst Committees of experts about whose talks we have no knowledge at all. Unless we get much fuller information in the future, there can be no really in formed discussion on the next steps to be taken in the matter of Western Union.
My second criticism concerns the contribution we have made and the use we are making of it. As the Foreign Secretary has said, and as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said the other day, this country has made by far the largest practical contribution towards the revival of Europe since the war. I do not think that it is always realised that in addition to what we contributed through U.N.R.R.A. and in addition to the present contributions which we are giving to Europe under the Marshall Plan, we have given to France alone about £150 million free of interest in the last three years. That is in addition to what we are now giving and in addition to the share which France will get of the sterling balances which we are making available. That amount of money is free of interest and I do not think that anybody really imagines that we shall see a great deal of it back in a short time.
In other words, these are unrequited exports. When, the other day, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden talked about unrequited exports, he did so in disparaging terms, comparing them to unrequited love and saying that they were very unrewarding. If in fact we had not done that or if we did not continue to do it, what alternative would the Opposition propose as a positive contribution towards the revival of Europe? Are they prepared to say that the United States should do that for the rest of the world and should offer credits free of interest or make grants to Western Europe, but that we, as one of the creditor nations of Europe, should not do the same thing? It is fundamental to the recovery of Europe, to the question of common currency and balance of pay-
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ment agreements that, we should make large unrequited exports for the moment. What I question is whether we have used the influence that that has given us to a large enough extent.
Let us for the moment concentrate on France which has the greatest difficulty of all. Obviously, the difficulty with France is that she is still living in a pre-war world. She is a very fertile country and she likes to produce wine, scents and other luxury goods. She likes to export them and in normal times, we like to drink them and use them. The fact is that today the world has changed. Instead of scents and wine the world wants meat, eggs, vegetables. But the French have not begun to change their economy in order to produce what is wanted in the world. We could do with a lot of timber which the French possess, but they have not yet got around to employing labour on cutting timber and exporting it.
I should like to ask whether we ought not to use our influence much more powerfully with the French and to enlarge the organisation which is considering Marshall Aid into an organisation which at the start would have to be advisory but in which we could publicly express our views of the share any other country must play in the European Union. These matters should be publicly debated and, of course, we should have to hear suggestions from other people. The fact is that France as a separate country is rapidly dissolving into chaos. There may be a dictatorship there in a very short time and that would only make Western Union all the more difficult. If we are to sit by and watch what is happening and go on subsidising France without taking any steps, not to impose, but to suggest a policy which will help her to recover, to suggest austerity, which the Opposition do not like, and methods of taxation which would make her Budget stable—unless we are prepared to do that, I do not see how we are to get any effective co-operation on the economic side in Europe at all. I therefore beg the Foreign Secretary to consider the O.E.E.C. Organisation not merely as a means of planning the next four years of Marshall Aid, but as a means of beginning the consultative machinery which shall be the instrument for the economic co-ordination of Western Europe.
5.41 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: Today is another instance of what we who have been long in this House have so often experienced. An anticipated crisis never comes off. One rather expected that this would be one of the great Parliamentary days. Undoubtedly, ever since the end of June and the action taken by Russia in Berlin disturbed this country and, indeed, the rest of the free world, there has been a growing anxiety in this country, and, again, in every part of the world; and we have had very great difficulty in maintaining silence and not asking for more precise information about what has been taking place. When we met last week, we were told that further information could not be given to us, and that it would be very much better if we did not debate these matters then, but that, today, very full and frank information would be given. Again, we have quite obviously been requested to leave this matter to another occasion.
I do not complain about that. I would rather congratulate all of us on having at least postponed the crisis. I wish there were fewer crises in the world, or rather that there were no crises at all. May I say in passing how glad we are to see how well the Foreign Secretary is standing up to the tremendous strain which there must be upon him? Many of us have had at least a small break since the end of July, but he has had practically none at all, and the fact that he has had to travel back from Paris studying that speech, is a tribute not only to his constitution but to his mental strength.
May I turn to the matters which were the subject of his speech, and first of all, to the question of the German Generals? I agree entirely with what has just been said by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley). Delayed justice can never be justice, and these people have now been kept on the rack without any charge being made against them all these years. They are now old and broken men, but, even if they were not, it is not right to keep men imprisoned for all that period without any charge being brought against them. However badly they may have behaved, and however atrocious their crimes may have been, it is never right to meet injustice with another injustice. It has never done
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any good to anybody, not even to the one who commits the last injustice, and I hope the Government will reconsider their position in this matter and quickly release these people.
There is one other aspect of this matter which I still fail to understand from what the Foreign Secretary has said. The right hon. Gentleman stated that this matter had been looked into by the Lord Chancellor, who had come to the conclusion that there was a prima facie case against them. The Foreign Secretary went on to tell us that the charge against them had not yet been formulated, but that we should have to wait a little longer while this matter was inquired into, and that then a charge would be formulated. That is a sort of legal method that I have never yet known. What always happens is that the charge is formulated, and inquiry is then made whether there is any prima facie case to support such a charge, but the whole process of legal experience has been reversed by the Government. The Lord Chancellor looks at the facts and says that there is a prima facie case, though he does not know on what grounds and does not know what kind of a charge to bring against these men. It is upon that basis that the Government have proceeded to act and have suggested that these people should be taken to Germany, where charges should be brought against them. I hope there will be a quick reconsideration of this matter.
The next topic to which I want to turn is that of Palestine. I asked last week that something should be said on behalf of the Government to express their anxiety that an end should be made of this problem, which has not arisen during this generation, but has been a problem that has troubled every nation of the world for 2,000 years. I asked that the statement should express anxiety that there should be an end of the bloodshed and that efforts should be made to arrive at a proper understanding. I did not go any further at that moment, but what I did expect might have been given to us was at least a recognition that there is a Government in Israel, since other countries, and great countries, have recognised that there is now a State of Irael. There can be no going back on that now, after the United States, after Russia and after General Smuts, not to mention the others, have said that they think that the time

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has come to try to settle this matter by allowing these people to have their Home and their State and that they recognised Israel as a State with a responsible Government.
I dare say one thing further. Not only have they a Government, but they have a Government which has undertaken a very great and difficult responsibility, a Government which has done its best to stop the actions of its wild men. It was a very courageous thing which they did, in order to maintain the truce— when they were very short of arms and were fighting against the Arabs, who had a great quantity of arms which, in the main, we have supplied. A ship was bringing them further arms, which was not allowed under the terms of the truce, and they fired on it. It was a very courageous thing to do, but they were anxious to show that they were a responsible Government trying to do their best to carry out their responsibilities.
It was a horrible thing that happened last week. A crime against humanity itself was committed in Palestine in the shooting down of that great man who had done such great services to humanity not only in Palestine, but when he did his best at the end of hostilities with Germany, when that country was collapsing. There is not one of us who does not deeply regret his death, and who does not most sincerely and warmly sympathise with his relatives. I hope the Government will take a much more prominent part than hitherto in trying to bring about this settlement.
Let it be remembered that we were the first to try to assist the Jews. We were the first of all countries to offer them a home and freedom and treat them as ordinary men like ourselves, and, from their ranks, there once came our own Prime Minister himself, who led the party above the Gangway. We were the first to suggest a home for them in Palestine; we went to the League of Nations and took the Mandate, and with very great trouble, carried through that Mandate until now. It is not right that we should now wash our hands of the whole thing and say that it is not for us, but for somebody else. Let us still take the lead in trying to bring about a settlement for which the world has been waiting for so many generations.
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I will now turn to Germany. Very rightly, the Foreign Secretary boasts of the improvement in, the standard of living in Western Germany, the rising hope among the German people, the increased production, and the wonderful effect it is having. The best propaganda against Communism is the fact that there is a depreciation in the standard of life in Eastern Germany and an appreciation in Western Germany. That being so, let us not continue a system of reparations and the demolishing of factories which could assist the German people still further in improving their standard of life and enable them to take their part, once again, in feeding and helping Europe.
The right hon. Gentleman based himself upon what had been promised in the Reparations Agreement. Nobody knows better than he that all the conditions which underlay the agreement in 1945 have been torn to ribbons. The same circumstances do not apply. What was in the minds of everybody in 1945 was how to prevent Germany ever taking part again in an aggressive action against anybody. That was the dominating thought then; the dominating thought in all minds today is how we can prevent the aggression of Stalinism across Europe. One of the right hon. Gentleman's proud boasts has been how much he has helped to increase the standard of life and to improve production on the Western side. Do not let him destroy that by continuing this niggling, silly demolition of necessary factories. He himself spoke about the psychological effect of destroying even one factory.
On the main question, we all agree that we must take up a stand. I have hated war, and always shall. God knows, I have every right to hate and loathe it, but those of us who hate war, hate slavery even more. The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley) spoke about the troubles in the world, and said that we might be divided. Hitherto, mighty struggles have been, very largely, for material power. Great Empires have been created, and men have fought and died in order to increase the power of those Empires, and their material wealth or prestige. There is a much mightier fight going on today; it is the fight for men's souls the world over. There is this steady attrition in the free nations of the

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world, and the bringing of them under the domination of an accursed doctrine. We must try and alter that; we must say quite definitely that there is a position from which we cannot retreat.
This situation reminds one very much of what we went through in 1933 and 1939, when we were hoping all the time that we could stave off a war. But those hopes faded one by one. First there was the Rhine, then Austria and, later, Czechoslovakia. The extraordinary thing at that time was that, within the boundaries of Germany, murders were taking place, thousands were dying, yet scarcely a protest was made. Before 1939, millions of Jews were done to death in Germany in a horrible way, but it was not until Hitler stepped over the boundary into Poland that the war started.
I always think that there has been a deterioration in our attitude towards these matters in the last half century. If one looks back at what used to happen at the end of the 19th century when atrocities were committed upon little people, one finds that the voice of England was raised in indignation. There was the time when an old man in retirement, hearing of atrocities committed on a small people, came out of his retirement to denounce the aggressor and to rouse not only Britain, but also the world. Voices like that are no longer heard; it is time they were. An hon. Member behind me says that the war went on. I agree. We all thought that the war ended in 1945, but a new war began in 1945, and is continuing.
Do the Foreign Secretary and his colleagues of the other three countries, especially of the United States and France, make it perfectly clear what is the policy of the three nations? Do they make it perfectly clear what we stand for, how much we have already given, and that we will not go back an inch from that position so that there can be no misunderstanding; or is there such loose talk that it still gives an opportunity for one of them to go on? There can be no doubt that those in the Kremlin know precisely what their policy is, and how far they intend to go. They are determined to pursue that policy until the whole of Europe is completely under their domination.
We must not go further into this today, but I must say that while I commend
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the Foreign Secretary for his patience and his courage, I want him to be much more clear and definite in his statements to Stalin and his advisers in the Kremlin, and to make it perfectly plain that we, the free peoples of the world, have given away as much as we intend to give away, and that there is no going back.
5.58 p.m.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I have addressed this House on many occasions, but I hardly remember a more solemn one than this. I will deal first of all with the problem of war criminals. I speak a little sentimentally about that matter because these war criminals were kept in captivity near my new home. What I cannot understand is the hypocrisy of it all—to talk about war criminals as if war itself was not a crime. The greatest crime of all is war; and I hope that the day will come when the civilian population of the world will call to the bar of judgment the military leaders of all nations who have been causing and fighting wars.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: And the politicians.
Mr. Rhys Davies: Some politicians, but certainly not the hon. Gentleman. I thought there was one weakness in the Foreign Secretary's statement about these four generals. I understood him to say that the United States of America did not wish to include these men in their list of war criminals; so why do we do so? Then we had a statement from the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) which rather frightened me. He talked of making a stand, and said that the time had come to say that we were ready. Ready for what—for war?
I know that the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) feels deeply on this subject of peace and war; and he and I are at one on the rights of man. Let me point out to him, however, that we presumed to fight the last war to free the human soul, and at the end of it all the human soul was more firmly imprisoned in Europe than ever. While I feel as he does about the rights of man, I am positive that if another war breaks out in Europe to try to prevent the spread of Communism, that Communist conception will grow and thrive on the garbage that is left after the conflict. Therefore, instead of preventing the

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spread of Communism by fighting against it we shall be creating the very conditions upon which it will flourish. If hon. Members forget everything else I say, I want them to take note of this, that after being here for a long time and having travelled a little over this world, I am thoroughly of the opinion that the worst peace that was ever made is preferable to the most glorious and triumphant war ever fought. I have no doubt about that, because the common people suffer most as a result of war every time.
I hesitated to take part in this Debate, because frankly I feel almost humiliated. The present situation is very nearly beyond the wit of the wisest man. I have, however, regarded the House of Commons as the one place in the world where men should say what they think, whether it is popular or otherwise, and I propose doing that now. The position seems to me to be something like this. Having seen much of this sick old world, let me say that I have seen no better country than this. The curse of mankind is intolerance. There is no intolerance as such in this House of Commons, otherwise it would not suffer me. More than that, if I spoke as I speak here, under Mussolini, Hitler or Stalin, I would be shot, and I do not want to be shot. So I prefer the House of Commons to totalitarian institutions.
We have learned one thing in this country that neither the United States of America nor Russia have learned. The great clash in the world at the moment is between the American conception of private enterprise and the absolute Communism of the Russians. [HON. MEMBERS: "No.") Surely, I can say what I think.
Mr. Blackburn: I have agreed with my hon. Friend so far.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I hope my hon. Friend may agree with me more as I proceed. That is how I see it. This is a clash of ideologies into which we are being drawn, and it is all wrong. We are told today that we are on the brink of a clash and that we must be ready. That means, I presume, that if the Russians do not make amends we must force our way through the Berlin blockade. Those who argue thus do not think there is any
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other means of settling the problem at all.
I may utter very foolish philosophy. I am a man of peace and I, like the Foreign Secretary, pay tribute to the late Count Bernadotte. The path of the peacemaker has become more dangerous than ever; and it is a little more difficult to preach peace in my country than it used to be. It is certainly more difficult in my country to plead the rights of the individual against the inroads of the tyrant and the State. There never was a greater pacifist than Gandhi since Christ; he was assassinated, as was Count Bernadotte. I am not, of course, important enough to be attacked in that way. If, however, any should scorn my views and treat me with contempt because I preach thus, I am willing to suffer it all in the belief that the common people, at any rate, will be better off by avoiding another war.
I return once more to the problem of the difference between the American and the Russian conceptions. Hon. Members may deny that the real clash is between these two ideologies of capitalism on the one side and Communism on the other, but I happen to know a little about it. On that issue let me put the case. In this country, strange as it may seem to Russia and America, we work both Socialism and private enterprise side by side, and let my Communist friends take note that we do that without shooting or imprisoning each other in the process. Consequently, I should have thought that our policy in conjunction with the British Commonwealth of Nations ought to be designed to erecting a bridge between these two great Powers which apparently are at each other's throat ideologically.
I am astonished at the Tory Party's attitude in this Debate. It is only a short time ago that they denounced the Germans as the vilest reptiles creeping the face of the earth. Now the Germans are a decent lot of fellows. Who are the reptiles now? The Russians, of course. It seems to me that some people delight in finding an enemy at the gate.
Mr. Baxter: I think many of us feel a great deal of sympathy with many of the hon. Gentleman's remarks, but when he says that we are now denouncing the Russians as we once denounced the Ger-

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mans. I must point out that I believe in the Conservative Party there is no hatred of the Russian people at all. We have a regard for their bravery and for what they endured, and every desire that they should lead happy lives. It is the administration which we hate, not the men themselves but what they do. I ask the hon. Gentleman to be fair and not to be extreme in what he says.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I wish all other hon. Members of the Tory Party would express the same views. Whatever the Members of the Tory Party say, it is obvious to me that the clash I have mentioned is about to come. If there is no such anticipation, how comes it that my country has adopted military conscription in peace-time? How comes it that we talk so glibly of a great expansion of Civil Defence? I have actually received a letter from the Secretary of State for War asking me to go on the platform on a recruiting campaign. I should not be surprised if I got my calling up papers before long.
Hon. Members talk so readily about war, but let them note this. In the first world war there were 12,000 conscientious objectors in this country. In the second world war there were 60,000 of them. How many will there be if there is war with Russia? I am satisfied that the vast majority of the people of this country would not respond readily to a war against anybody just now. You can have a war, if you like, every quarter of a century, because a new generation has been born in the meantime, but the last war is much too near to have another one just now.
Mr. Blackburn: My hon. Friend knows I have agreed with him on many issues before today and in some respects, like the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter), I sympathise with him now, but is he aware of this fact—that the real danger of war is not that it will be started by America or Britain, but that it will be started by Russia, and that the danger of war from Russia is increased if the Russians believe that the people of this country are either pacifists or crypto-Communists?
Mr. Davies: I always thought nations had passed the stage of declaring war officially on each other; they simply slide into war nowadays. That is exactly what might happen in Berlin. I do not
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know if all the combatants declared war officially on the last occasion; they just went to war. It may be true that the Russians will do something foolish or, indeed, that the Americans may do so, or and forgive me for saying this—that some of our British lads may do something foolish, too, to start a conflict.
Let me come back to my main point. I do not wish to say anything to offend the great American people; they are about the most generous and kind folk I have ever met anywhere, but that does not prevent me from being a little offended by the fact that they have troops and aircraft on the soil of my country just now. I should not like Russian aircraft or Russian troops on my soil either. The arrangements that have already been made are ominous to me—recruiting, slowing down demobilisation, postponing demobilisation for three months, and before the three months are over for another three months, and then another three months, and then probably an Act of Parliament to extend military conscription from one year to two years and maybe three, and so it goes on like a rake's progress.
I have the feeling that the human mind in this country is very nearly paralysed by events, accepting everything as if we could control nothing whatsoever. Let me say, therefore, that although I do not know enough how to approach the Russians, or how to deal with them, I am sure of one thing—that a war will not conquer Communism or any other "ism" for that matter. Let me say a word to some of the Russian leaders, some of whom I have met personally: I am a little astonished at the way they have behaved at international conferences. Let no one believe I have the slightest friendship towards totalitarianism of any kind. I think it is the foulest form of government that has been conceived since the days of the Pharaohs. I have no faith even in a few members of the working class themselves—and I am one of them —dictating to the rest of their comrades. A dictator is the same whether he is a capitalist, a landlord, a banker, a coalminer or an engineer all tyrants are of a type.
What I cannot understand about the Russian leaders is this: Lenin and Trotsky achieved power, because the Czar and his minions sent the Russian people to the slaughter until they were

943
fed up with the Czar and his wars; and what the Russian people could do with the Czar, who was then the tyrant, there is no reason to believe they cannot do the same with their new tyrants.
Mr. Pickthorn: Much more difficult.
Mr. Rhys Davies: Civilisation is surely not static. Russian Communism is not static either. For instance, some members of my Party tell me sometimes that Socialism is the last word in politics. In my short lifetime I have seen many "isms" arise and many "isms" die, too, and I think the "ism" we are talking about today will also pass away in due course.
I cannot suggest how we can extricate ourselves out of this position. It is indeed a serious situation because, boiling it down to the actual facts, it is a question of whether a time will arrive when America and Great Britain will decide to force their way through that corridor into Berlin. The day that is done another war will begin. I will not prophesy too much about a third world war, but it is obvious that the weapons which would be used in the next war would shock the human imagination. I doubt if civilisation in this country could survive. When the Foreign Secretary says that the British race must survive, I would suggest that if we go to war there is less chance of our survival than there is if peace prevails.
These arguments may not avail much. I detest war; I want peace. I cannot tell how to get peace. I do not know. All I know is this: if one man in one country, a dozen men in many countries, preach the gospel of peace as some of us are trying to do here, mankind may begin to listen, as they did when once upon a time a young Jewish gentleman, two thousand years ago, died on Calvary who could, if He had wished, have joined the Roman Legions and become a Field-Marshal in the Roman army. He preferred to die for a set of noble peaceful principles, with the result that churches, chapels and monasteries have been built to His memory all over the world. If He had become a Field-Marshal in the Roman legions not a stone would have been placed upon another to commemorate His life in this world.
Mr. Paget: May I ask my hon. Friend this: Would he leave his Social-democrat
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comrades in Berlin to the mercy of the totalitarians?
Mr. Rhys Davies: I will do or say nothing which would induce the use of force between one man and another for any purpose whatsoever. It has been implied here on many occasions that the British are the people to save such and such a race. Let me answer that. The mere fact that the British people imagine they are the saviours of mankind suggests a little conceit and bombast on our part.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore; Someone has to do it.
Mr. Davies: I hope the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) will not mind my saying that I do not think we are strong enough to do it militarily. These are my sentiments; I hold them dearly; I will preach them to the end of my days, believing they are right. I finish as I began by saying once again that the worst peace that was ever made between nations was better than the most glorious war that was ever fought.
6.20 p.m.
Mr. Fitzroy Maclean: I sometimes wonder whether the speeches of the Foreign Secretary are not deliberately intended to stifle and damp discussion by their dismal catalogues of dingy detail. Certainly the speech he made today has had that effect; and I think the House should be grateful to the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), whether one agrees with him or not, for the vigorous push which he has given to the Debate, back towards the main issue with which we should be concerned today.
I would ask hon. Members to try for a moment to recapture the atmosphere that prevailed in this House and in the country two months ago before we adjourned for the Summer Recess. There was the feeling of tension which inevitably accompanies a crisis; and there was also the feeling akin to relief which springs from the knowledge that a situation which has become quite intolerable is approaching an end. The Leader of the Liberal Party said that he does not like a crisis. To my mind, any crisis, however grave, is preferable to the terrifying drift in which we are involved at the present moment.
Before we adjourned it seemed that our relations with the Soviet Union had

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indeed reached such a crisis. It seemed as though either the Russians would agree to grant us our rights—I repeat, rights; because that is what they are: our rights in Berlin—or else that we should assert those rights, by force if necessary. I should like to point this out, that if we are put in a position in which we can assert them only by force, then the aggression does not originate with us but from the Russians who are obstructing us; we are not obstructing them, they are obstructing us. When we adjourned it seemed as though one thing was certain, to judge by the repeated declarations of the Foreign Secretary, and that was that we would not negotiate under duress. He said it again and again in this House, and it was accepted by the country and by, I think, hon. Members on this side— on both sides—of the House. In that knowledge we went away, at a time when there might have been a case for keeping Parliament together.
What has happened since then? The special representative of the right hon. Gentleman has been in Moscow, and there he has been negotiating. At first there was a pretence that he was not really negotiating, and that what he was doing was trying to find a basis for negotiations at a later stage. But very soon that pretence was dropped. The talks began to be referred to as negotiations. Then what, I believe, is known as the "newspaper reading public" could read in their newspapers with feelings of relief that the envoys, as they are called, had been given tea and cakes by Marshal Stalin. Then everybody cheered up. The next day one was told that Marshal Stalin had gone for his holiday or M. Molotov had not come back from his. To anybody who knows anything about the Russians, this was clearly a deliberate turn of the screw for our benefit. Then a few days ago we were all very much relieved to learn that Mr. Roberts had been seen to leave the Kremlin with a broad smile on his face. That was headlined in the papers, and everybody cheered up again.
Now all that would not matter very much in ordinary circumstances. But what are the circumstances in which these discussions have been taking place? A lot has been said about the air lift. It is claimed that it is a very remarkable achievement. Of course, technically it is a very remarkable achievement. Politic-
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ally, however, I cannot agree that it is very much of an achievement to get oneself manouevred into the position where one has to use millions of gallons of petrol and millions of pounds of the taxpayers' money to achieve a fraction of the result which one could achieve by using the ordinary means of transport, road, rail and canal which one has every right to use.
Mr. Blackburn: While agreeing with everything the hon. Gentleman says, I should like him to admit that the responsibility for this rests upon the shoulders of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, because of the Yalta decision.
Mr. Maclean: I cannot agree with what the hon. Gentleman says. He is taking the whole situation back a very long way.
Mr. Blackburn: When does the Opposition ever disagree with the Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Maclean: Today. I am disagreeing now. However, I cannot go into all that now, though I will come to the point the hon. Gentleman has made a little later in my speech. To continue, I think that he will agree that the air lift, out of which the Foreign Secretary has tried to make a certain amount of capital, can hardly be regarded as a political achievement. It may be a technical achievement, but not a political one. In addition to that, there have been in Berlin a constant series of attacks on allied officers and officials, who are constantly put in an outrageous position. In fact every attempt is being made by the Russians to render our situation in Berlin impossible. Nor is Berlin the only place where the pressure is being applied. It is being applied at this moment throughout the world. One has only to point to the situation in South-East Asia where, on orders from Moscow, the Communists are making as much trouble for the Western Powers as they possibly can. And that is not the only place.
Mr. Platts-Mills: Has the hon. Gentleman any information, or is he suggesting anyone has yet produced any information, of the orders to which he is referring?
Mr. Maclean: The hon. Gentleman should really know more about these matters and how those orders are transmitted.
Mr. Piratin: The hon. Member cannot get away with that.
Mr. Maclean: Perhaps the hon. Member for Mile End knows a little more still.
Mr. Piratin: Much more than you.
Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. The Communist Member—I forget his constituency—is constantly addressing remarks to you, Sir, and has just said he knows more than you do. I ask if he is in Order in making remarks of that kind.
Mr. Speaker: Certainly the hon. Member is quite right when he says, "I know more than you." Members are apt to forget when they fling these things across the Table that they are addressing me. No one must say "you" unless he means me.
Mr. Piratin: I certainly withdraw that remark if the House wants to construe it as a reference to you, Mr. Speaker, but I think that the hon. Member for Lancaster knew quite well that this was a little controversy between ourselves. Having expressed my apology, I think that it ill becomes the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) to object to hon. Members making remarks on these questions.
Mr. Speaker: It is no good the hon. Member pursuing the matter by making other personal allegations.
Mr. Maclean: I am quite ready to accept the hon. Gentleman's statement that he knows more about these matters than I do. I would only say that I do happen to know quite a lot about them myself.
However that may be, one thing is quite certain, and that is that what the Government have been doing with the French and American Governments for the last two months can only be called one thing, and that is negotiating under duress. What is more, we still do not know how much longer this process is going on. We have been given no indication of what the Government will regard as the limit beyond which they are not prepared to go any further. What it amounts to is that the negotiations will go on so long as it suits Generalissimo Stalin to allow them to go on. He may
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choose to let them drag on for months; he may even agree to what the Foreign Secretary has called—I think rather smugly—negotiations on the very highest level. Or on the other hand, he may suddenly lose patience and pack the envoys back from where they came, leaving the situation as it was two months ago. Or, rather, not as it was two months ago but very much more serious indeed, because during the past two months we have given the impression that we are not prepared to stand up for our rights. We have given the impression that we are not prepared to assert our rights. That in any circumstances, would have been deplorable, but in the present circumstances it is nothing short of catastrophic. For Berlin has been made a test case. There can be no doubt about that. The Russians are deliberately making it a test case in their relations with the West.
In 1945, the Foreign Secretary said that under a Labour Government in this country, "Left would speak to Left with comradeship and confidence." That was a very unwise assumption on which to base a Foreign policy. The other day, the right hon. Gentleman said that he had known all about Marxism and Leninism and their results for years, and in spite of that he took that line in 1945.
Mr. Blackburn: This is a point of great importance. It is a historic fact, and can be checked on the Blackpool records, that when the Foreign Secretary said that "Left cleaves to Left," he was not talking about Russia but about France.
Mr. Maclean: So far as I know, he said, "Left will speak to Left" and that he was talking about Russia. It is very difficult to say exactly what the right hon. Gentleman does mean sometimes, but one thing is certain, and that is, that what he must have had in mind was a policy based on ideological considerations—
Mr. Blackburn: No.
Mr. Maclean: Well, if he did not mean that, I do not know what he did mean. In any case, that is by no means the only statement of the kind which has proceeded from the present occupants of the Front Bench opposite. They made at that time any number of statements, saying that when they came to power, they would get on with the Russians.

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My answer to the point which the hon. Gentleman raised about Yalta just now, is that hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen opposite felt at that time perfectly pleased with the situation, and perfectly confident that they could make an even better job of our relations with the Soviet Union than had been made by the Coalition Government. I say, as a very humble back bencher, that that was an extraordinarily good job, because never have our relations with the Soviet Union been so good as when we had a Conservative Prime Minister and a Conservative Foreign Secretary. Whatever the Foreign Secretary may have said in 1945—it seems perfectly clear what he meant— was that, if the Labour Party came into power the fact that they were a non-bourgeois party, was going to help them in their relations with the Kremlin. They should really have known that the Kremlin does not reciprocate the admiration of the British Labour Party. The comradeship and confidence are all on one side. That does no discredit to hon. Gentlemen opposite; it is simply a fact.
What the Russians understand—I speak with a certain amount of experience, having lived there for two years, which is more than a great many hon. Gentlemen opposite have done—is power politics. They will come to terms, and come to terms extremely quickly, if they can only be convinced that it is in their interests to do so, and if they can be convinced that it would be calamitous for them not to do so. That was very neatly and very effectively demonstrated by Hitler in the years 1939, 1940 and 1941. They came to terms with Hitler because they were afraid of Hitler. They respect strength and, conversely, any sign of weakness is taken by them as an encouragement to go ahead with their plan for world domination.
Part of the trouble in the world at the present time is that all over the world we are giving abundant signs of weakness and indecision, particularly in the East. In the Near East we have given up a number of strategic bases of the first importance without replacing them. In Palestine another country about which the Foreign Secretary made a certain number of statements which he shows no signs of carrying out—we performed the altogether remarkable feat of alienating both the Jews and the Arabs, of turn-
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ing both sides against us, thereby converting Palestine into a most fertile field for hostile propaganda. We shall see the result of that in due course.
In India, Burma and South-East Asia we are abandoning enormous areas of land and vast numbers of population to total chaos, but total chaos which will not remain total chaos for very long because something else will take its place. Indeed, something else is already taking its place. In China, for example, where, without our stirring a finger to stop it, the whole country is rapidly falling under Communist domination. I would ask hon. Members to consider for a moment what will happen when China—sprawling as it does right across Asia—is under complete Soviet domination, while at the time time India, Burma and the rest are in a state of conflagration. The result of our policy of drift and withdrawal is simply to create a vacuum which the Russians will, without any doubt whatever, hasten to fill.
What is the alternative? The Foreign Secretary said, in another context, that he did not like drawing lines. Well, he has come to a point where he must draw a line. We and the other Western Powers must draw the line now without any further delay, not only in Europe but in Asia. We must draw that line, and we must keep it drawn; we must let the Russians know in the clearest terms that we will not allow them to overstep it. Will this mean war? Here I should just like to join issue for a moment with the hon. Member for Westhoughton who seemed to assume that taking a firm stand inevitably meant running into war. I shall try to show that in the present case it would mean exactly the opposite. The irritating thing about professional pacifists is that they always assume they are the only people who do not like war. There are a lot of people who do not like war, and generally the people who have had the most experience of it dislike it most.
To my mind, a firm stand on our part is very unlikely to lead to war. It will lead to war only if Marshal Stalin has already decided on war. If he has already decided on war a policy of appeasement on our part will certainly not stop him, any more than it stopped Hitler in 1938 and 1939. If he has decided on war, he will have war, and a weak policy on our

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part can have one effect, and one effect only, namely to encourage him still further in his desires. But on the face of it it seems to me very unlikely that Marshal Stalin does want war, for unless he is extremely badly informed by the sycophants round him—and that, of course, is the danger with all dictators, that their advisers are too frightened to tell their bosses the truth—he must know that in the long run the Soviet Union could not hope to hold its own against the overwhelming technical superiority of the Western Powers. Possible initial successes on the part of the Red Army sprawling over Western Europe would be of very little use to a Soviet Fatherland whose main centres of industry and population had been already laid waste by atomic bombardment. Marshal Stalin must realise that there could be only one outcome of such a war, and that would be the destruction of his country and, what is perhaps more important to him still, the overthrow of his own régime.
Now, it seems to me inconceivable that so notoriously cautious and intelligent a man—the hon. Member for Mile End smiles. if he does not agree that Marshal Stalin is cautious, I would invite him to read the documents recently published by the State Department describing the course of Soviet-Nazi relations between 1939 and 1941; if that does not.convince the hon. Member that that great man is an extremely cautious character, then I do not think anything will. Marshal Stalin being so notoriously cautious, it seems fantastic to suppose that believing as he does, rightly or wrongly, that time is on his side he would willingly take such an appalling risk. If, on the other hand, we continue by our supine attitude to encourage him in the idea that there is no danger of our obstructing his designs, then only one thing can happen, and that is that he will continue to pursue those designs quite ruthlessly, and quite regardless of any one else's interests. If he does that, then war will be inevitable.
6.49 p.m.
Mr. Lester Hutchinson: I shall follow the exhortation of my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) and say what I think, although I am pretty sure that my views will not be universally
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popular in this House. The only compensation I can offer is that I shall not detain the House very long.
I followed with great interest the speech of the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Maclean). I do not agree with him that the Russians are making Berlin a test case, because I believe that the problem of Berlin cannot be isolated from the general world tension which is now disturbing our relations. If the crisis had not taken place in Berlin it would have taken place somewhere else, and what we have to resolve, if possible, is not these separate problems but the complete problem as a whole in bringing about a better feeling, more good will, and more co-operation generally in world relations.
I detected in the speech of the hon. Member the new line which the Opposition seems to be taking towards the Foreign Secretary. These criticisms of the Foreign Secretary from the Opposition are most ungenerous, because in reality they are criticising their own policy. We on this side are in the embarrassing position of being blamed for the results of a foreign policy which the Opposition have forced upon our guileless Foreign Secretary. Therefore, the Tory attitude needs very careful examination. Their line seems to be, after all the adulation, that the policy is good but the execution is bad, and that therefore they will keep the policy but my right hon. Friend should make way for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). We have to examine the matter more objectively. The question is whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford would achieve any more success than my right hon. Friend. In my view the answer to that question is "No," because success is not determined by personalities but by policy. It is my conviction that our present policy is ill- founded and misguided.
We complain about the Russians being awkward and difficult and for being non-co-operative in negotiations, but can we really blame them if we examine the position objectively? What have we done in the last three years to break down the old barriers of suspicion and distrust that were erected in the years before the

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war? We have made a fundamental mistake in tying ourselves up economically and militarily to the United States. The statement made recently by the British Ambassador in Washington that we were the partisans in the cold war against Russia was endorsed in this House, and if we are declared to be partisans in the cold war against Russia it logically follows that when the cold war becomes a shooting war we become the ally of the United States. That is not the best way to bring about co-operation with Russia.
We also have the political and economic effects of what I should like to refer to as the "Hoffman dole," which effectively excludes us from full participation in the rich markets of Eastern Europe, and particularly Russia. It creates political barriers against full trade relations with Russia which are essential to Europe and ourselves, and it ties us completely to the competitive economy of the United States. The United Nations Economic Committee recently stressed the importance of full resumption of trade between Eastern and Western Europe. They went further and said that there could be no possible recovery for Europe unless such trade was restored. And yet what are we doing to restore trade? We cannot restore trade unless there is a certain amount of political give and take and co-operation, and certainly trade can be built up only with conciliation and understanding.
We have signed the Treaty of Brussels and have formed a firm alliance with the Benelux countries and France. The object of this alliance is to build up sufficient strength in Western Europe to withstand the initial shock of the Red Army in case of war until America is ready. That is quite clear from all political comments upon the Treaty of Brussels. I must say that it does not give me much comfort to know that in a war against the Red Army we can rely on the full support of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. We have allowed America to establish permanent air bases in this country exactly as if we were Nicaragua or Costa Rica, and it affronts the national susceptibilities of our people to see foreign soldiers in our provincial towns walking around, if not with the air of conquerors, then with the air of protectors; which is equally offensive—there is a good deal of feeling
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in my constituency on that matter. But more important than that, the very fact of allowing America to maintain air garrisons in this country commits us almost irrevocably to becoming a satellite ally of America in case of war with Russia.
In these circumstances I would ask whether it is very remarkable that Russia should be suspicious and un-co-operative. I agree with a lot of the sentiment expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton, because we hear a lot of war talk from Members in this House and elsewhere and I am quite certain that the people of this country will not willingly support an aggressive war against the Soviet Union on behalf of American big business. Those who talk about standing up to Russia or taking armed convoys through Soviet territory, which means war, cannot have the faintest idea what such a war would mean to the people of this country. Irrespective of the horrors of atomic bombing, we have to remember that we are bankrupt as a result of the last war and that we are not in a position economically, socially or geographically to fight anything but a defensive war.
In my view we should make our position indisputably clear, that we shall be the partisans and satellites of no one, and that the only occasion when we shall fight will be in self-defence. If we make that clear I think that our relations with Russia would improve almost overnight. The position has been falsely represented as a conflict between social democracy and the Communists, but that is not the correct situation at all. This bogy of Communism or Bolshevism has been raised before. We have seen how Hitler and Goebbels raised the bogy of Bolshevism to get financial and political support from this country in order to build up their war machine to attack us. We have also seen how our friends in Germany at the time of the Weimar Republic fell into the same trap, and that example should be particularly in our minds at the present time.
In this very dangerous world in which we live, we have to adapt our policies to the existing conditions and not to conditions which no longer exist. The weakness in my right hon. Friend's policy is that it is based too much on traditionalism. We are defending imperial interests which no longer exist. It is also wrong politically, in so far as he is con-

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ducting foreign policy on ideological grounds rather than on the fundamental economic and political interests of the people of the country. We must shake these Nineteenth Century shackles off, approach these problems afresh, break down the barriers of mistrust and suspicion. If we do not have a radical reorientation of policy there will be war and if war comes we can say in famous words:
"The bright day is done, and we are for the dark."
7.2 p.m.
Mr. Butcher: The hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Hutchinson) said we must break down the barriers of suspicion and mistrust between this country and the Soviet Union and, in doing so, suggested that the barriers which had been erected by mistakes on the part of this country in pre-war years still existed. If anything should have swept away once and for all, in the eyes of the Russians, such barriers it was the exertions of the Mercantile Marine, the Royal Navy and the Air Force to bring succour to them when they and we were attacked by a common enemy. Why we and Russia are not seeing eye to eye at present, and are in a position of distrust and disequilibrium, is this: that when we sign a treaty we honour it, and when the Russians sign a treaty they keep it so long as it suits them.
The Foreign Secretary referred to the German generals, and Members have expressed regret that it should still be thought necessary and desirable to bring them to trial. I share those views. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) put forward most admirable legal reasons why they should not be brought to trial, but I believe there are also other reasons. There was a time when these men could and should have been brought to trial—when we were the conquering and occupying Power in Germany. Those days are past, and we are now co-operating with the Germans in rebuilding their civilisation. It is for that reason that we ought to re-examine our position in relation to reparations. There may have been, and probably was, a time when it would have been a good thing for Germany and the
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rest of the world as well if certain factories had been torn up and transplanted to other parts of the globe. But those days, too, are past.
The psychological effect of shutting down an industry or factory in Germany at present will do far more to worsen our relations with the German people than anything else. It is all very well to say that there is capacity for the unemployed in other factories, but we know in our own country the difficulty which the Coal Board has in persuading miners to move from one mine to another a little further away. How much more difficult is it to persuade German workers to move from one factory to another at the behest of an occupying Power, and see the machines on which they were formerly employed being given away to another nation?
The Foreign Secretary had much to tell us about Germany that was heartening. He told us of the changed economic life of Germany which had followed currency reform. I hoped he would have been able to tell us that in view of the improved health of the German economy it would soon be possible to establish some form of exchange value, to reestablish the exchange of the two currencies between the German deutschmark and English sterling so that export and import trade can be conducted on a more realistic basis than at present.
I do not want to add much to what has been said about the air lift, except that it must be a matter of the profoundest satisfaction and pride to all of us that in this gigantic task of keeping alive 2½ million people, condemned to starvation by another Power, we and the Americans have co-operated so happily, and our share has been 40 per cent. The fact that this country which, in the war, did not concentrate on transport planes, but on fighter planes, can carry 40 per cent. of the load with its present population and task of rebuilding its shattered industries, leaving 60 per cent. for America, with its greater resources, should be a matter of pride for each one of us.
But while we are proud of our share do not let us think that we are doing a clever thing. It is a very extravagant thing on every count. Accidents are bound to occur, some caused by misfortune and mischance and some by interference in other ways, and it is

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extravagant in the number of men used to load and unload, service and fly the planes. It is still more extravagant in planes themselves. As these planes make their journeys so their useful working life becomes shorter. It is still more crazy that a huge quantity of high octane fuel like petrol should be used to transport a low quality fuel like coal. However, we have committed ourselves to this task and we must carry it through. On the other hand, I believe the time has now come when, in addition to flying goods into Berlin, we should start to fly people out, to reach an equilibrium so that the air lift can be maintained indefinitely if need be.
I believe that we and America have to face the fact that war has already started between this country and Russia. Just as, in the last war, gas was not used so, in this war, if it comes, we must hope and pray that bombs and artillery will not be used. It may be that the new form of war will be fought out in the economic, political and diplomatic fields. One hope we have of coming successfully through these testing times is that we shall staunchly and unitedly play our part—and in this I echo the words with which the Foreign Secretary concluded his speech.
The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) suggested that in the world in which we find ourselves today the choice was between Russian Communism and American capitalism. If I thought that was so, I should have little interest in the matter, but I do not think it is so at all. I believe that the choice is between those who recognise the essential value of the human soul, the doctrines, thoughts and ideals of mankind enshrined in the Magna Charta, in the Declaration of Independence and in all those great thoughts which have inspired Western civilisation. For my part I wish the Foreign Secretary well. Mistakes have been made, and I am sure he would admit that he has made mistakes, but his one cardinal virtue throughout his diplomatic approach has been that he has kept in step, side by side, with the Americans all the time. There is safety, there is security and there is honour for the British people.
7.9. p.m.
Mr. Piratin: Before coming to my main point may I refer to some-
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thing which has just been said by the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher)? He said that the one thing upon which he could congratulate the Foreign Secretary was his cardinal virtue of keeping in step with the United States. He said he did not regard the choice in the world as being between American capitalism and Soviet Communism and that there was an identity of policy between this country and that of the United States. Not a word did he mention about the United Nations. The hon. Member said the Foreign Secretary had synchronised his policy with that of the United States and that, unfortunately, is the pity of it all, for that is the reason why we are in our present position, and why we had to listen to the Foreign Secretary's speech, such as it was, today. Everyone who heard it will agree that it was a most miserable effort in almost every sense. The right hon. Gentleman was physically sick, and there was no vestige of hope.
One thing that the right hon. Gentleman said, which I noted verbatim and on which I propose to say a word or two, was this, "I am not saying we are committed to war; we have not reached that stage yet." I believe I have got him verbatim though, of course, I did not do it in shorthand. I think the operative word in that phrase is "yet" for we are preparing for war. His statement was made with all seriousness. There was no irony about it, and therefore I must accept it seriously. He held out no hope at all of avoiding the war, which he said we had not started to wage yet. On the contrary, when it came to the possibility of negotiating with the Soviet Union he said in quite definite terms, "We cannot negotiate with them."
Therefore, the House must come to the conclusion that we are making rapid strides towards war. Since Parliament resumed we have also been told of practical steps that are being taken in that direction—the extension of the Army by the holding up of demobilisation, the doubling of the production of fighter planes, and now there are to be prepared many naval vessels which only in the last Session we were told were beyond repair and useless. Whether this is to frighten a potential enemy or whether this is what was successfully done in 1938 by the then Prime Minister—to bluff the nation, the Foreign Secretary or the

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Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he replies can best answer.
This is the stage we have now reached on the road to war. Why? The Foreign Secretary puts the complete blame on to the Soviet Union. He said this afternoon that the Soviet Union makes demands which we cannot meet and which we have no desire to meet. The Minister of Education appears to be taking notes and no doubt he will convey them to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and I hope he will make a note of this question—I challenge the Under-Secretary, when he replies to the Debate, to say what are the demands which the Soviet Union is making? There has not been one Member who has spoken today, including the Foreign Secretary, who has stated specifically what the demands are.
Mr. Thomas Reid: Quit Berlin.
Mr. Piratin: The Soviet Union have made no demands about Berlin. What specific demands have been made? I ask the House to note carefully in the reply to be made by the Under-Secretary tonight if it is stated whether the Soviet Union made demands or otherwise, and whether they have made suggestions or proposals on which it was not possible to negotiate. The Foreign Secretary is under the impression that he is still a trade union official, bullying the workers who are out on an unofficial strike by telling them they must return to work before he is prepared to negotiate.
These statements about demands have no foundation in fact. They are propaganda put out in the first place by the Foreign Office and gladly received and publicised by the capitalist Press and unfortunately by the Labour Party Press. The last point about the Labour Party Press was amply brought out a day or two before we rose in July for the Summer Recess by the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) who came to this Chamber with several copies of the "Daily Herald" and read from them war headlines which had no foundation in fact.
Mr. McAllister: I hope the hon. Member is not as simple-minded as he would lead the House to believe. I can give him one specific instance of what the Soviet Union is demanding,
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namely, the restoration to the whole of Berlin of the Soviet mark while refusing completely quadripartite control.
Mr. Piratin: I will come to that point in due course. [Laughter.] I will do so only to save time now and to give other Members a chance.
Wherever the Communist Party happens to be active the Foreign Secretary and others in this House on both sides describe it as Russian aggression. Wherever the workers organise and stand up for their rights, wherever they rise against aggression or bad conditions, it is the Communists who are behind it. In many cases I am proud to say it is the Communists, but hon. Members of this House will remember the scene—at least I hope they will remember it because it impressed itself on my mind—a few months ago when the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, reporting on the riots in the Gold Coast, said they were Communist led. However, the Gold Coast Commissioner in his report says nothing of the kind whatsoever. One would have expected—though one has not seen him lately because maybe he is away in connection with his duties—that the Under-Secretary would have come down to the House to make an apology. But no, that impression was to be put over not to the House alone but to the public and it was to stay there. These things are without foundation. It is these things which are creating the present position.
The Foreign Secretary sees himself stabbed in the back from every corner of the earth. Last week he made a statement to the House and hon. Members will remember an interjection by my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). The right hon. Gentleman said—
"It is part and parcel of a clash between two philosophies."
He did not define those philosophies, but my hon. Friend interjected to say—
"It is between Socialism and Capitalism."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th September, 1948; Vol. 456; c. 91.]
I heard quite a number of Members on this side of the House say—"Hear, hear." The Foreign Secretary did not define the two philosophies which lie had in mind, but those philosophies mentioned by my hon. Friend are the two philosophies.

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What is the philosophy we are carrying out in Malaya? This afternoon a question was put to the Secretary of State for the Colonies. He was asked by an hon. Member on this side how he explained the burning of the huts in Malaya and whether he would refute a story published in the "Observer" this week. If the people in those huts were guilty, they should have been arrested but obviously they were not guilty. They were taken out of the huts and the huts were then burned down. The Secretary of State for the Colonies described this as a preventive measure. What kind of philosophy was that? There was nothing "on" these people. They were not suspected, because if they were suspected they would have been arrested under the laws operating in Malaya today. What philosophy is this that the Secretary of State for the Colonies, supported of course, by the Foreign Secretary, is establishing?
This afternoon one of the points in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was his reason for sending the four German generals for trial. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party—I regret that he is not here at the moment nor is any member of his party—spoke on this matter, arguing that one injustice will not be eradicated by another. What strictures came from the Liberal Party benches or for that matter from any other benches in this House with regard to the matter mentioned by the hon. Member for Luton—the burning down of huts in Malaya for preventive purposes? He does not regard that as injustice, but as part of our philosophy. He saw injustice in handing over four German Generals against whom there are allegations of most heinous crimes. I cite that instance to show that the stab in the back—the expression which the Foreign Secretary likes to use so much—is not one-sided.
The Foreign Secretary spent most of his time today on the question of Germany. We recognise that it is here that the conflict is sharpest. He proposes to continue his present policy. He has no prospect of being able to solve his problems but he is determined to continue his bankrupt and hopeless policy. What is the background of this matter?
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There is a rift between the West and the East. We must seriously and objectively, if it is possible to be objective in this matter, answer the question; "How did the rift occur?" The clash in regard to currency first appeared—
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Events started in Berlin when road communication was cut off. There is a widely held but fallacious belief that they arose out of currency reform, but the heat was first turned on in April.
Mr. Piratin: The latest events which gave rise to the air lift and so on arose after currency reform was established, in June I think it was.
Mr. Nicholson: No.
Mr. Piratin: My conception of the latest events is that they developed in June. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is a bit like Rip Van Winkle. Perhaps the Foreign Secretary will be able to recall—at one time last year there was a certain degree of agreement between himself and M. Molotov on the question of currency and then it was that Mr. Marshall stepped in and said, "We cannot accept the particular proposals which seem to find favour in the eyes of the representatives of Britain and the Soviet Union." As Mr. Marshall could not accept them, the Foreign Secretary changed his mind. Subsequently the Soviet Union made further proposals on currency. I asked a question in June of the Foreign Secretary, which he did not answer correctly because he gave one of those answers about Communist terror and Bolsheviks, and the usual thing which makes no sense.
I asked him whether he was going to consider the last set of proposals made by the Soviet Government on the question of a common currency for the whole of Germany. He had no answer. The Soviet Government was still endeavouring to find a common currency for the whole of Germany. In June or July the new currency was introduced. Does the House know that the notes which were distributed in the Western Zones of Germany for the new currency were printed in November last year?
Mr. Stokes: Is the hon. Member also aware that the U.S.S.R. had a similar currency printed at the same time?
Mr. Piratin: If the U.S.S.R. had a similar currency printed at the same time it is very strange that the notes were not distributed and that the Soviet Government had to use an ad hoc currency.
Mr. Stokes: So did we.
Mr. Piratin: Is the hon. Member satisfied? Does the House know that those notes were printed last November which, as the House will recall, was before the last Four-Ministers Conference? The Conference began towards the end of November in London and ended in December. Therefore the foreign currency which was then discussed by the four Ministers, had already been printed in the United States for distribution in the Western zones of Germany. Of course, the four Ministers came together, and our Foreign Minister and Mr. Marshall came together, around the table with cards up—always cards up—to discuss the matter seriously and soberly—but the currency had already been printed in America. Does the House know that? If not, it is not cognisant of facts which were published in America many months ago.
The second point with which I want to deal is the London Conference. This is where the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) had a point of difference with me as to when the latest crisis developed. The London Conference—
Mr. McAllister: Will the hon. Member deal with the point I raised?
Mr. Piratin: I have done so. Please let me get on. At the London Conference, among the matters discussed were a military alliance, an economic and cultural alliance, and the future of the Western zones of Germany. Agreement was reached among six nations, of which one, Luxembourg, was certainly a very minor nation, with regard to the future of the biggest part of Germany—all that irrespective of the Soviet Union. Of course, the Foreign Secretary said: "We did our best last November and December," but quite irrespective of the interests of other countries very much concerned in the matter, such as the two neighbours of Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia. Those two countries were not called in at all. Was not that a breach of the Potsdam Agreement? Was it not a breach of everything that
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was right? Why were not those other countries referred to, with respect to the future of Germany?
Can the Foreign Secretary have the temerity to claim that the blame for the present position is completely on the shoulders of the Soviet Union? Are we without blame? Even hon. Members opposite did not utter one cheer this afternoon when the right hon. Gentleman sat down. We have heard that even the Foreign Secretary has weaknesses. Whether we agree to call them weaknesses or faults, let us discuss them. We are prepared to discuss someone else's weaknesses without any regard to a text, to which many hon. Members in this House give lip service and which is taken from a Book which they hold dear, about not casting stones. We cast lots of stones at others. A little self-criticism might be very useful if we are really out for the peace of the world.
It was after these events, I submit to the hon. Member for Farnham, whether it was in April or in June, that our relationships became so strained, as we heard in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon.
Mr. Nicholson: The hon. Member has been very courteous and I very much appreciate it. At an earlier stage of his speech he said that the situation did not boil up until June. I interrupted and said that it started in April. Am I to understand now that the hon. Member is saying that it really started in March? We should very much like to know were we stand.
Mr. Piratin: I have been giving two examples of differences between East and West upon currency and on Western Union. One took place in June and the other in March. Some action was taken in April. That was revoked, as the hon. Member will recall. The most serious action really took place from June onwards. If the Foreign Secretary was sincere he would ask himself whether he is without faults and he would put before the House a clear statement which we could discuss sincerely and rationally. He would ask what is happening to our people today in this country because of his policy.
The newspapers this morning published the announcement that the capital investment programme would be cut and that

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the home market would suffer. All this is because of our foreign policy. Deprivations for the common people because our wealth has to be squandered upon a foreign policy which is a complete failure. Is there an hon. Gentleman opposite or on this side who will now justify the £120 million which we spent in two years maintaining the troops in Palestine? Certainly hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot, for it was the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition who two years ago said, "Call them out of Palestine." It is true that he said, "Put them on the Canal Zone." Who on this side will justify it in the state we have now reached? As the Foreign Secretary said today, it is out of our hands and the United Nations Assembly must decide the matter. Yet we spent £120 million on that policy and many millions in Greece and elsewhere on a foreign policy which is having a terrible effect on our own people, apart from its future effect on our happiness and peace.
What is to happen if war occurs? The hon. Member for Holland with Boston said that we are at war. He qualified it and said that he meant not the war of guns but the war of diplomatic arguments, politics and so on. He could have put the paraphrase quite rightly if he had quoted Nietsche. Nietsche said:
"War is a derivation of politics for it is a continuation of politics."
[An HON. MEMBER: "Clausewitz."] Clausewitz, I beg pardon. If the Foreign Secretary were concerned about this he would ask himself what is to happen if there is a war. The House will remember the Foreign Secretary's last words. In the most maudlin of words, almost in tears, he ended his peroration by saying that this country will survive. It looked as if he was hardly able to survive when he said it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap."] It is not cheap. I am not offensive. If the Foreign Secretary were here I would repeat it. It is because I feel so much about it. I had to sit and listen to it. If other hon. Members felt the same, they would know what we are saying. The Foreign Secretary spoke about surviving. Why did he seem to be doubtful? There was nothing of the spirit of courage of survival in his words; there was despondency because he knew he had no hope of survival unless his policy was to be continued.
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The air exercises a fortnight ago showed what chance this country has in a coming war. As the newspaper correspondents said, those exercises were based on the last war and not modelled on the next war. What chances have we got? A few months ago there was a Debate on the Air Estimates, and speaker after speaker spoke of what we should do with our Air Force and of how we should base our Air Force on Canada and North Africa and other places many hundreds of miles away. I asked one question at the end of that Debate: If that is where we are going to put our Air Force and armaments stores, where are we going to put the 50 million people, for we cannot take them to Winnipeg or North Africa? No one answered, for there is no answer. There is no seriousness and no sincerity in the Foreign Secretary or anyone else who will not face up to that question and who talks of war so glibly.
In 1945 in the Labour Party programme the keynote of Labour's foreign policy was co-operation with the Soviet Union and the United States. Let any Labour hon. Member deny that. That foreign policy has never been carried out, but it is not too late. The keynote is still friendship with Russia—
Mr. Ivor Thomas: And the United States.
Mr. Piratin: And the United State In answer to that interjection, which I welcome, I would say that unfortunately we have not got friendship with the United States. If the hon. Member thinks we have friendship with the United States he is labouring under a delusion. We are taking orders from the United States, not as equals but as under-dogs.
Mr. Ivor Thomas: The only reason why we have not friendship with the Soviet Union is not on the British side.
Mr. Piratin: If there is a reason why there is no friendship with the Soviet Union, let us make absolutely sure that we are without blame. The Labour Party programme in 1945 said that before the war, the Tories were so afraid of the Soviet Union that they failed to reach an alliance which might well have prevented the war. The Tories are constant in their attitude towards the Soviet Union. That was their policy before the

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war and now that the war has ended, they have reverted to the same policy. The Foreign Secretary and those on these benches who support him have now lined up with the Tories. The Foreign Secretary has not gone far enough even to meet the wishes of the Tories. We can watch where the road is leading. If the silence on these benches this afternoon when the Foreign Secretary concluded his speech, symptomised, as I believe it did, anxiety in view of his statement, I would say that now is the time for hon. Members on these benches to speak vigorously, to demand co-operation with the Soviet Union, to talk peace and to work for peace.
7.37 p.m.
Mr. McGovern: I have listened to a number of the speeches which have been made, including that of the Communist hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) and one or two of the fellow-travellers in this House, and the line which they pursue is one which any intelligent man in politics can understand. All the pressure is to be applied in each capitalist country or wherever Labour or democratic Governments are operating, to compel surrender to Russia so that Russia may control the whole of Europe and thereby be enabled to control the world at large.
A question put to the Communist leader is exercising the minds of people in Australia at this moment. When he was dealing with the drive towards war of this country and the Labour Government he was asked: If war comes, on whose side will you be? He promptly said, "I would be on the side of Russia against Great Britain." In consequence of that, resolutions have been pouring in from every organisation in Queensland demanding that the Communist Party be outlawed as a traitorous organisation. Before there is any danger of war we know that the line is to back Russia against their own country and government. In the speeches of the hon. Member for Mile End, the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) and the hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Hutchinson) one can see the line. Every fault, every crime, every act of injustice is the responsibility of this country and this Government.
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Yet it is noteworthy that there is never one word expressing antagonism or condemnation of anything Russia has done. It is so patent that nobody requires to say to any intelligent person in this country that their aim is to Bolshevise the world with the greatest tyranny that mankind has known throughout history. And when we see the hon. Member for Mile End—I say this in no insulting manner—whose parents or grandparents probably had to flee from the tyranny of either Soviet Russia or Poland to this country, having sympathy with the same tyranny on a greater scale that is being exercised upon human beings in the Eastern parts of the world, the very thought of it appals me.
Mr. Platts-Mills: Does the hon. Member mean Malaya, when he speaks of the Eastern parts of the world?
Mr. McGovern: The hon. Member knows more about the Eastern parts than I do. I know those who have lived in the Eastern parts of the world and have not been shepherded around on a Cook's tour, who have known suffering and persecution in those Eastern parts of the world. We have it from the mouths of all these Communists that they stand against this country. The most laughable thing is that the hon. Member for Mile End said that there was an expression of opinion at the General Election that the Labour Government were anxious to cooperate with the Soviet Union. Surely the history of the Labour Government is that they have demonstrated, even to a seven-year-old standard of intelligence, that they have gone too far in trying to co-operate? One does not co-operate, one does not negotiate, unless the other party is prepared to show some sign of reasonable compromise in dealing with any difficult situation that arises. The hon. Member says, with all the pontifical outlook of the ordinary Communist leader, "The Soviet Union is not aggressive. Great Britain and America are the aggressors."
Mr. Piratin: Hear, hear.
Mr. McGovern: It always amazes me to hear the Communists decrying America and other countries, and decrying the troops in this country. If they were Soviet troops, the hon. Member for Mile End and the hon. Member for Finsbury would be down fraternising with

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them, dining with the officers, and being taken around the camp to see the great display of force that would be used against America in the event of war.
Mr. Platts-Mills: Nonsense.
Mr. McGovern: These internationalists, who cannot even allow any citizen in the Soviet Union or the Eastern parts of their Empire, to come out and associate with workers in any part of the world, in case they would realise that the workers of this country do not live in the hell that has been propagated by the leaders of the Soviet Union.
Mr. Piratin: Would the hon. Member recall that a few weeks ago, when I had an intense desire to go to the United States, they would not allow me to go there?
Mr. McGovern: I commend the United States for their wisdom. Why should they allow declared traitors—
Mr. Platts-Mills: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is it permissible for any hon. Member to speak of any other hon. Member however indirectly, as the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) did of my hon. Friend the Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) as a "declared traitor"? Ought he not to be asked to withdraw such a statement?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I did not myself hear the expression. It is certainly unparliamentary and, if it was used, it should be withdrawn.
Mr. McGovern: Might I finish my sentence, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—declared traitors to the cause of democracy. Therefore, if these people are prepared to use power to seize the democrats by the throat and to instal minority governments in any part of the world, the Government of the United States would be incapable of running America, if they allowed such individuals to perambulate throughout their country. I would say to my hon. Friends that if war comes, they and their fellow-travellers may not be able to go far in this country if we have wise leadership and intelligent direction. In these circumstances the hon. Member says that there is no aggression or aggressive designs on the part of Russia. I would say this to them: that if you allow the burglar who comes to your house to take all your
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goods and chattels, there will be no fight. Russia has pursued a policy throughout the whole of the Continent—in Poland, in Czechoslovakia, in Estonia, in Latvia; in Roumania, in Bulgaria, even to the pouring of munitions and irregulars over the frontiers into Greece to create rapine and murder in that State.
Mr. Platts-Mills: The hon. Member cannot prove a word of that.
Mr. McGovern: Oh, yes, I could prove it. I could give the hon. Member also the report of a man in America who speaks in defence of the Russian people, formerly a general in the Russian Red Army. He says that in the event of a war, our propaganda must differentiate between the Russian people and the Kremlin crook gang, because the Russian people are a great, noble, kindly people. There are two million members of a secret police, nine million men and women in labour and concentration camps throughout the Soviet Union.
Mr. Platts-Mills: Would the hon. Member tell me since when the number of 24 million, which he gave when he last mentioned it, has been reduced to nine million in these concentration camps?
Mr. McGovern: I have never told the hon. Member any such story—
Mr. Piratin: Oh, yes, you did.
Mr. McGovern: —because I read it only today in the paper I hold in my hand. Strange to say. I got it from the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). The figures are given in this paper, and the writer speaks highly of the Russian people. He says that we should not repeat the mistakes we made in the German war by not separating the German people from the Nazi leaders, and that we carried on the war too long when we opened the floodgates of Russia into Europe. He points out that the policy of unconditional surrender was the cause of all the troubles today, because we did not fight with both the military and diplomatic arm at the same time to get rid of the top Nazis at the earliest possible moment and restore peace and sanity to the world.
The people of this country have to realise, and the sooner the better, that when the Labour Government offered to co-operate at the end of the war, they

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genuinely believed that Russia would respond. If Russia had responded, I would have been delighted, although I did not believe they would because I knew their line was always to take the Social Democrats as greater enemies even than the Tories. The result was that they could not co-operate. Agreements were made at Yalta and Potsdam which I condemned and the Foreign Secretary took over the policy, it is true, not only agreed to by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), but agreed to by Stalin himself, on behalf of the Soviet Union, and the obligations were never carried out, and every agreement was broken.
Today we find ourselves in the position that if we give way in Berlin, that is not the end, but only a first step. I said in the case of the Polish trouble that Poland was a case where a stand should have been made, much as there was antagonism in the Socialist movement to the old ruling class of Poland, with which I agreed. But they failed to realise that once they began to retreat before the Stalinist dictatorship, it was only a matter of time before we would be compelled to retreat further and further, until we lost the whole struggle and democracy went West.
I have spent many unhappy hours thinking out the problem of what is to happen if war should come, because if war comes, it will not be any fault of the Labour Government in this country. It will come because of brutal aggression of the Soviet totalitarian Kremlin gang, who are divorced from the world and who know nothing about the feelings of men and women throughout the world, but who sit there in a cold-blooded, calculating manner, determined to run the world their way. I have a great respect for the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). He has made a speech today full of sentiment and a hatred of war with which everyone could agree, but what did he say? The question is whether the air lift can go on during the coming months and the coming winter and if it fails, can the Stalinists begin to threaten to deprive the people of Germany of food and sustenance?
Mr. Platts-Mills: They have offered to feed them all.
Mr. Stokes: Let them feed their own people.
Mr. McGovern: It is always good propaganda to try to make people believe that one is doing things from a humanitarian point of view, but they were not so quick about sending grain to the French people, or sending to this country until they could get an agreement for something in return. This internationalism of the Soviet Union, when women jump out of windows rather than go back and when Russian wives cannot join their husbands—this great international camp, this Socialist El Dorado is such that men who have independent and Socialist minds are appalled and shocked by the cold-blooded brutality of the people who have seized power. If they had even got the length of saying, "The Labour Government are not all we want, but if the Labour Government are willing to co-operate with us, we will do everything we can to give them timber and grain and get articles in exchange to build up the economy in our country, and in their country," there would be no conscription in this country today and no additional three months or six months service for men in the Forces. Our taxation would be reduced and articles in the shops would be flooding the markets instead of the markets being denuded.
Russia is guilty of an appalling crime on humanity and these men, these cold-blooded brutal men, these original Nazi leaders—because they were the first in the field and taught Hitler and Himmler all the tricks they knew—come along today and ask, "Why do not the Government give way?" I happen to have a son working on the air lift in Berlin and he tells me that nearly all the serving men deplore the additional three months' service, but admit it is not the fault of this country. They are beginning to talk, as are too many people in the street, in tea rooms and in trains. They are all beginning to say, "I am afraid the writing is on the wall, we have to deal with Stalin as we dealt with Hitler," and that is the beginning of the process of war.
I have every sympathy with the Foreign Secretary in his position. He has had a succession of failures, but the Archangel Gabriel could not have succeeded. He has done his best and poured out all his physical and mental energy and capacity on this problem. No man could

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have returned successfully and in a genial, comradely, mood when those feelings were not reciprocated. If war comes, there will be a large number of people in the Socialist movement who will be compelled, remorselessly, by events, to take a different line from that which they took in the last war, because in that war we could see power politics being played between two great capitalist Powers for markets and domination, but here it is a struggle for the soul of man, for the right of men to be able to express themselves and to say what they think and to write and complain in any field.
God knows that I, in common with most hon. Members in this House, would be very unhappy if war came, but there are only two policies which can be pursued today. There is either the policy of the hon. Member for Westhoughton and my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire, as complete out-and-out pacifists who would say to Stalin, "You can have Berlin, or you can have Belgium, you can have Holland, you can have France, you can have every part of the world; we do not intend to do anything to stop it." Or there comes a time when man has to say that the things which are at stake in this struggle are too great for human beings to surrender and that life itself would not be worth living under the totalitarian and brutal system of thuggery which Russia has been struggling to fasten upon the free peoples of the world.
Mr. W. Griffiths: Why did not the hon. Member say that about the Nazis?
Mr. McGovern: I do not think that at this stage men in the Forces or armaments or planes are going to lead to war, but I agree with the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Maclean), who said that in this case, strength may mean peace. Stalin, I believe, is in no position to conduct war and certainly has not the secret of the atomic bomb. He is bluffing and blackmailing the same as any Communist does in political organisations and if this country stands up faithful, strong and true, on behalf of democracy, the moral and spiritual forces of this country need have no fear. The Stalinists will be discredited and back down before the rage and determination of the human race.
7.59 p.m.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I hope that the striking speech to which we have just listened will be widely read and reported overseas. The hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) told us a few moments ago that we should be unwise at this stage to talk in terms of war because if war came we would lose it. I should not be surprised to learn that he and some of his friends were talking in very similar phrases in 1939, and the fact that the hon. Member was able to express his views freely in this Chamber, without let or hindrance, was due to our insistence at that time that there are, as the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) has said, certain things that are worth fighting for.
I think that all of us understood the reason why the Foreign Secretary necessarily had to make a very restricted speech. At the same time, I must say frankly that I consider it to be a serious matter that this House should adjourn on Friday for a month without being given from the Foreign Secretary at this great period of crisis any further information than he was able to give us today. The course of events which he described will not cause any surprise to anyone who has followed Anglo-Soviet relations even inter, mittently during the last two or three years. Rudyard Kipling wrote:
"East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet."
These words seem to have a somewhat prophetic ring in connection with relations between the West and the Soviet Union in all but the physical sense. It is perfectly true that West and East meet at the conference table hut the gap between the mentality of the delegates on the one side and the mentality of the delegates on the other is very wide.
To the Western mind a conference is a meeting between the representatives of various countries, each prepared probably to make certain concessions in order to reach agreement and, having reached that agreement, to abide by its terms. To the Soviet mind a conference is a convenient opportunity of stating minimum demands and a concession is merely regarded as a withdrawal of demands often wholly irrelevant and unjustified which should never have been put forward in the first place. If I were to steal the watch of my right hon.

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Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) and he were to demand, as he no doubt would, its immediate return, the actual act of putting it back into his pocket would, in Soviet terminology, be a concession on my part for which I should be entitled to demand in return a quid pro quo.
It is, therefore, clear that the normal methods of diplomatic discussion which are perfectly proper and adequate between one civilised State and another, are not always applicable or appropriate when dealing with the Soviet Union. The Western Powers will never conclude a satisfactory agreement with the Soviet Union unless and until their delegates hold as many cards at the table as the Soviet delegates. I hope that the Under-Secretary, who I think is to reply, will tell us something 'about the three-Power note which, according to the evening papers, is about to be dispatched or has already been dispatched to Moscow. The news came through on the tape machine and was in the final editions of the evening papers as the Foreign Secretary was speaking. It seems a curious omission on his part, if the note has in fact already been dispatched or even if it had been in draft only and was being sent tonight, that he should have made no reference to it in the course of his speech.
I also hope that the Under-Secretary will be able to deny another very strong current rumour, namely, that the three envoys are going to the Crimea to find Marshal Stalin in his seaside resort and to make a further personal contact with him. I can conceive nothing less edifying or more fruitless than a procession of envoys to the Crimea journeying from one watering place to another to try to find Marshal Stalin, only to be told that he has left a few hours before their arrival.
I wish for a moment to refer to the time-table of events in the relations between the Western Powers and the Soviet Union, as it is important. I do not want to dwell for more than a moment on the period of the summer of 1945 when we were being told in all good faith by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that only a Socialist Government could really achieve friendly relations with the Soviet Union.
Mr. Shurmer: Did hon. Members opposite think they could?
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: We never said so.
Mr. Shurmer: The party opposite tried to get back to power on that.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: There was apparently thought to be some mutual bond of understanding between Socialist Britain and Soviet Russia, a sort of hands across the sea. I have often thought that some of the eloquent speeches made on the subject by right hon. Gentlemen opposite at the time of the General Election and afterwards must have been inspired by the well-known verse in the 42nd Psalm:
"Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts; all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me."
I was however surprised at the time that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer should have joined that particular bandwagon since he had been Ambassador in Moscow and should have known better. It was fairly clear by the middle of 1946 that that particular illusion bore no relation whatever to reality.
From 1946 onwards the situation rapidly deteriorated. The Allied Control Commissions in the Balkan countries were experiencing great difficulties with their Soviet colleagues. The misuse of the veto at the United Nations was completely hamstringing any effective action by that body. The Russians themselves were refusing to work the Potsdam Agreement. There was long-range intervention in Greece. The iron curtain enveloped country after country in its folds, culminating with Czechoslovakia. By the middle of 1947, if not earlier, the Soviet Union had declared open warfare on the Western world, with particular reference to the Marshall Plan, by all known means except shells and bullets.
Nor were the Kremlin's activities confined to Europe. They were extended, by a carefully co-ordinated plan, to the Far East, as we have heard from the lips of the Foreign Secretary himself. So the writing on the wall was clear for all to see. I find it very disquieting that hitherto His Majesty's Government do not seem really to have anticipated events. No precautionary measures have been taken until now, apart from removing from Govern-

977
ment Departments a few civil servants who were known to have affiliations with the Communist Party and who had access to certain confidential documents.
I believe that the only chance we have of avoiding a third world conflict is to make it perfectly clear to the Soviet Union, not merely by word but by action that there will be no further compromise. Let us for a moment put ourselves in the place of those who sit in the Kremlin. I believe that they are largely insulated against world opinion. It is quite likely that they are misinformed as to the general strength of public opinion both here and in America, as some hon. Gentlemen have already said.
We remember the example of Ribbentrop who, when he was Ambassador here, consistently misinformed Hitler as to the real state of opinion. The ambassadors of dictators often tend to tell them not what the facts are but what they would like to hear. Always bearing in mind the probability, that those in the Kremlin are in fact insulated against world opinion, let us remember that the eyes of the Kremlin have seen this country during the last three years pull out of Palestine, India and Burma. I do not wish to comment on the wisdom or otherwise of those particular moves. I am merely stating facts
Mr. Shurmer: And have seen us demobilise men at the request of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill).
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: They have seen us reduce the period of service from 18 months to 12 months. We let them have jet engines last year. We are still exporting oils and fats from Malaya to the Soviet Union. I do not know whether we are exporting rubber as well. But all these moves spell one word and one thing only to the Soviet mind, and that word is weakness. Add to this a Presidential Election in America, and the grave political difficulties which the French are experiencing, and I think that the danger is that Marshal Stalin and his advisers may be tempted to play their cards very high. I believe that no more useful message could go out from this House during this Debate than that we were absolutely convinced that Marshal Stalin shall gain nothing further by bluff. That is why I believe that in many
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respects the Debate tomorrow will be infinitely more important than anything that has been said today.
It is not only that we must convince the Soviet Union that we mean business; we must convince our friends also. I think the time has come when we should look around the world and see who are our friends and who are not and take action accordingly. My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) referred to the Iberian Peninsula. I should have thought that now was the time to adopt a more realistic and commonsense attitude towards the Spanish Government. The charge against Franco is that he was a pro-Nazi—
Mr. Shurmer: Up with Franco.
Mr. Bramall Mr. Bramall(Bexley)rose—
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Just let me finish my sentence. The charge against Franco is that he was pro-Nazi—
Mr. McAllister: No—that he was Franco.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: He cannot be more pro-Nazi than the Germans themselves, and we have been engaged very properly during the last three years in building up Western Germany.
Mr. Platts-Mills: You have. we have not.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I cannot see on what grounds of ideology His Majesty's Government are ostracising Franco Spain while we are in full diplomatic relationship with the Soviet Union and all the iron curtain countries.
Mr. Warbey: Is the hon. Member saying that the majority of the German people in Western Germany are still Nazis and that is why we want them as friends?
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I am not saying anything of the sort. Most of the Germans in Western Germany thanks to our assistance, welcomed the opportunity of getting rid of the Nazis and coming back to a democratic way of life. But I must say that by attacking and ostracising General Franco, we are merely enhancing his popularity to an unnecessary extent among the Spanish people.
I hope that from now on, the Government will be seized with a sense of

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urgency because events are moving very fast indeed. We in the Opposition have consistently given the Foreign Secretary a good deal of support. That support, both in value and volume, has often been a great deal more weighty than the amount of support he has received from certain hon. Members behind him. We shall continue to support the Government in whatever urgent measures they may take to repair our depleted defences, to continue to stand firm and take the initiative in Western Europe. It may well be that the Minister of Health has not changed his views since making the extraordinary statement at Scarborough on 18th May of this year when he said, to what I am sure was an enthusiastic audience, that he did not believe there was anything dignified in a Socialist appealing to a non-Socialist for help. That is not the view of the Foreign Secretary in the words of his own speech today, because he knows better than any man how essential it is that in these times of stress and strain we should present a united front to the outside world.
I cannot help feeling that it is a little unfortunate in this period of crisis, that we should be discussing these grave events as it were by accident, because this Parliament was not recalled to discuss these matters but to deal with the Parliament Bill. We are only able to have this Debate today and the Defence Debate tomorrow because the Government intend to nationalise steel. But in creating a united front, one thing is certain, that Tories, Liberals and Socialists all have their part to play.
8.15 p.m.
Mr. Thomas Reid: As I anticipated, the Foreign Secretary was unable today to give us information about what has been taking place at these numerous conferences in Moscow and Berlin. The result is, of course, that we have to discuss the German problem, which is part of the world problem, without full knowledge of the facts. But one thing he said was in accordance with what I have imagined. He said that the Politbureau—I do not talk about the Russian people because they are only political serfs and do not count politically; it is the Politbureau that rules Russia—seemed to expect that once they put on this
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blockade, we should be compelled to leave Berlin within two weeks. I always anticipated that was so, because these men, although they are well versed in the art of revolution are the most incompetent rulers in the world.
They did not expect this remarkable air lift, and they are perhaps still unable to realise that if they go on with their folly and if they expect to terrorise us and America and the democracies generally so that we shall be afraid to stay in Berlin, they are making another great mistake. They have been playing with fire ever since 1945, as the Foreign Secretary said on one occasion in this House; and if they go on, they will burn their fingers as Hitler and Mussolini and others like them did before them. If they think we are afraid to stay in Berlin, it is because they do not understand human nature. They think with a wretched materialistic philosophy which is about a century or two out of date. They do not realise that people have moral minds or souls or call it what we will; or that the people in the world, even the people in the satellite States, will not put up with Communist tyranny for ever.
It appears that we intend to stay in Berlin and I hope that we shall. If we do not, it will be Munich all over again. Everyone who has studied the situation realises that. It will be Munich over again, a temporary cessation in which the Communist imperialism will have gained an enormous victory in prestige and an enormous victory in strategy. What would happen to the Western States if we were to quit Berlin? European countries would say "The Democracies are useless, America and Britain have fallen down, let us turn to Communism." There would be an immense Communist victory in Italy and in France. It would be disastrous for us to quit Berlin, and however difficult it may be to stay there, I am certain that America, Britain, France, others and the Dominions and Colonies will remain in Berlin.
That is only fighting a defensive war. Some of our Communist hon. Members said we should never fight an aggressive war. Aggression is all on the side of Communist imperialism, and if we resist it by holding our own in Berlin, that is an act of defensive war. Furthermore, none of us wants war. The pacifists speak

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as if they were the only people who hate war. We all hate war and those who have taken part in a war are the people who hate it most, because they know what it means. But we are dealing with these Communist imperialists who have no moral scruples, no moral self-respect and no inhibitions of any sort. They rely on fraud and, in the end, force. The only thing they understand is force.
If we stay in Berlin and organise the democracies as we are doing—I think much more than perhaps people know—and if we confront Communism with force then I do not think, as some hon. Members have said, that the Politbureau would go to war. So by resistance, by organised military force, we shall probably prevent a war.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Sound Tory doctrine.
Mr. Reid: It is not Tory doctrine, it is Labour doctrine and it is not pacifist doctrine. I suggest that communist imperialists have some delusions about the state of opinion in this country and especially the state of opinion in the Labour movement. The Labour movement was never pacifist and it is not pacifist today. The number of pacifists in the Party is negligible. Further, if they think that the Labour Party is not prepared to stand up against the aggression of Communist imperialism, they are making a sad mistake. I speak from knowledge of the state of opinion in the Party—
Mr. Platts-Mills: War—let us have war.
Mr. Reid: My hon. Friend talks about war. I have suggested that the only way to prevent a war is to stand up to Communist imperialism in Berlin and elsewhere. That may or may not prevent a war. It is the only possible means of preventing a war, and if it does lead to a war, I suggest to my hon. Friend that it is better to fight on our feet than to be shot on our knees. It is necessary, therefore, to go on with the organisation from a military and economic point of view, and every other point of view, of the free nations of the world.
Mr. Platts-Mills: The hon. Gentleman means the capitalist nations.
Mr. Reid: Hon. Members opposite have claimed that they are supporting the foreign policy of this Government, yet today I heard a lot of pinpricks against the policy of the Foreign Secretary. It was said, for instance, that we are negotiating under duress. What are we negotiating about? We are negotiating about the fact that the Politbureau want to get us out of Berlin. Is it suggested that the moment the Politbureau put on this blockade we should have immediately started bombing? We are negotiating about that. As far as I can understand, the Russian Government say that if we will allow them to arrange for Soviet currency in the whole of Berlin, then they will open the corridor. That is what we are negotiating about. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite suggest that the moment the corridors were blocked we should have started bombing? As I understand the matter, we have refused under duress to discuss all sorts of world affairs. We have tied the Soviet Government to Berlin and nothing else. That is not negotiating under duress.
I think it was the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Maclean) who talked about our signs of weakness and indecision in withdrawing from India and Burma. I put this question to hon. Members opposite. How many divisions would we have now in Burma and India if we had adopted the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill)? Is it not possible that even our Government realised that the danger was nearer home? Is it not a fact that if we had tried to govern Burma and India against the will of the people there, by which I mean the politically-minded people—the people who count—we should have found great difficulty? What folly it would have been to have tried. It would have meant that we would have had to rule by force. If we had to reduce Burma and India again to order, after years of probable war what should we do? Should we hand them over as we handed over South Africa after years of war? We had the wisdom and virtue to withdraw from India and Burma when they no longer wanted us to rule—
Mr. Pickthorn: Who are "they"—the Karens?
Mr. Reid: If the Karens and the Burmese come to grips, that is their

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affair. It is an internal affair in Burma Does the hon. Gentleman say that we should have joined the Karens and fought the Burmese? He raised the question of the Karens. I will sit down and let him say what objection he has to the Karens, and then I will try to answer him.
Mr. Pickthorn: I will ask later.
Mr. R. A. Butler: I have seen reports in the Burmese Press that the Conservative Party has been joining in the troubles in Burma on one side or another. I should like to take this opportunity to say that I have no knowledge whatever of any such insinuation. I am very glad to take this opportunity of saying that.
Mr. Reid: Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is not accusing me—
Mr. Butler: No. I am not accusing the hon. Member, I am merely taking this opportunity.
Mr. Reid: I understand. One of the wisest things the Labour Government did since they came into power was to withdraw from an impossible position in Burma and India. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend opposite is a friend of the Karens. Does he think that I, for one, and others who know these countries, did not realise that there might be trouble between these tribes in Burma and trouble in India? I can assure him that I was well aware of what would happen. I predicted it. Our job was not to make things worse by having a breakdown in India with bloodshed and terror in which our boys would be losing their blood for no purpose. I do not want to go back on the past, but what was done in the case of Nazi aggression? Appeasement. Has the Foreign Secretary appeased Communist imperialism? We first came to grips over Greece. Who was responsible for preventing Greece from becoming a satellite State of Russia? Is anybody more responsible than the Foreign Secretary who kept our troops there until America came in? Some hon. Members opposite have had experience of the Foreign Office and they know that if Greece had fallen Turkey was bound to fall. Would Italy have survived?
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: In point of fact, the time when Greece was saved was the
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winter of 1944 when British troops were involved in defending Athens. At that time, it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) who was the Prime Minister. I fully agree that the then Minister of Labour, the present Foreign Secretary, supported him, but there were howls of criticism from those who at that time sat on this side of the House.
Mr. Reid: The hon. Member is talking about the war period, and he is perfectly right. It was the gallantry of our troops which then saved Greece. I am referring to the Foreign Secretary. He was not the Foreign Secretary at that time. I am referring to his action as Foreign Secretary after the war when the Communists made an attempt to scoop Greece.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Yes, that was in the winter of 1944.
Mr. Reid: The war was not over in 1944. I am talking about the time when my right hon. Friend became Foreign Secretary in 1945. I am talking about his actions as Foreign Secretary. I say that he saved Greece and the Near East for democracy, or it is hoped that they will have been saved for democracy in the long run. The Communist imperialists are not in power there up to date. [Interruption.] This has nothing to do with capitalism. The Communists have a delusion that everything has to do with capitalism. The struggle is between Communism and democracy, between Communism and liberty, between Communism and civilisation, and the Labour Party is on the side of liberty, democracy and civilisation, as the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Platts-Mills) will find out.
Mr. Platts-Mills: We fought for capitalism.
Mr. Reid: The hon. Member continues to make these remarks. The Communists are just like a gramophone record. They give off their propaganda and nobody pays the slightest attention.
When the Foreign Secretary went to America to attend the United Nations Conference, I begged him in this House to end it or mend it. I have never thought that democacy and Communism could sit down at the same table with success. Now we have reached the final

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stage when the matter is before the United Nations in Paris. I can assure the Government that the people of this country and, I think, the people of the world, are sick of these conferences. They want the matter to be brought to an end. I do not know what steps are being taken, or whether we are asking for a final answer from the Politbureau, but I hope there will be an end to these conferences so that we shall know where we stand in the future.
8.30 p.m.
Mr. Boothby: I admire very greatly the robust speech of the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid), and I would go so far as to say that he was reflecting the opinion and mood of the great bulk of Labour people in this country.
I listened to the Foreign Secretary with great interest, and I found his references to the air lift in Berlin encouraging, but I must confess that I did not find anything else very encouraging about his speech, or anything which was very clear. It is all very well to say how splendid the air lift is, and how much better is has turned out to be than anybody had a right to expect, but how long is it to go on? Is it to go on indefinitely? Suppose we get through the Winter, what happens in the Spring? So long as that air lift is conducted at our expense, Russia may legitimately claim that she has scored a great point in that we are negotiating under duress. I do not think that situation reflects very great credit upon us. I will not say what alternative steps should have been taken; but I do say that it is nothing to boast about. It is an infernal expense, and a considerable humiliation; and we had better face up to it.
I was always opposed to the decisions taken in 1944, 1945 And 1946 which finally left us in an untenable position in Berlin, if the Russians chose to cut up rough. I have always felt that, as a result of the war, the line of demarcation between East and West was pushed much too far to the West. There is a pretty sharp difference between the Elbe, where the Russians are now; and the Curzon line, where they ought to be. In my view, we should never have lost Poland and Czechoslovakia; but that is no more reason for further retreat now than the previous loss of the Rhineland and Austria was a reason
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for a further retreat from Hitler in 1938. On the contrary, it is an additional reason for standing firm.
I take exactly the same view now as I did in 1938; that, if we want to avoid a third world war, we must stand firm. We cannot have any further retreat; and, if it ever comes to an ultimate choice between moving into Berlin or moving out, I say quite candidly that I should be in favour of moving in. I am by no means sure that a military war would be the result of action of that kind. On the contrary, I think it might well avert it.
We are beginning to face the fact that there is a great world struggle for power going on. It may be that Stalin was right when he said that it was impossible for Communist and capitalist States to live together in the same world for any considerable length of time, although he has also contradicted that statement. It may be that Mr. Burnham is right when he says that the supreme objective of Communism, to which everything else is subordinate, is a monopoly of power; and that it must conquer or perish. The fact remains that we are, at the moment, involved in a desperate struggle for world power; and, that, as a result, the world has already reached a state of explosive instability.
Germany is the crux, which makes this Debate of supreme importance; and that is why the struggle has reached, in Germany, its most intense manifestation. Unless and until the Russians succeed in gaining control over the whole of Germany and in making Germany a Communist State, they cannot be masters of continental Europe. That is what they are now trying to do; and that is what I say they must be prevented from doing at all costs. It is significant, and in some respects encouraging, that the Russians have abandoned the method of infiltration by apparent kindness and have resorted to brutal force. It could hardly be otherwise. They have turned the Soviet zone into a desert, enslaved its population, and they are now attempting. to starve the population of Berlin.
The German people have, in consequence, turned away from the East, and are attempting to turn towards the West. It is a process that should be encouraged by this country; for, without Germany,

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Western Europe can neither recover nor survive. The only method of preventing a recurrence of the German menace is to make what is left of Germany an integral part of a Western Union; right in, on level terms. It is for this reason that I genuinely think that the trial at this stage of these old German Generals, after over three years of imprisonment without charge, is not only wrong but mistaken. The Foreign Secretary was justifying himself; but he got a pretty cool reception from both sides of the House as he spoke about these old boys. There was not much enthusiasm for getting the doctors to decide whether they can still stand up in court, after three years in prison. They are old and ill: and they had better be left to it.
The same goes for the process of dismantling. By all means dismantle factories which can be used solely for maufacturing arms; but not clocks. I am content, in this connection, to quote from a remarkable article in the "New Statesman" by the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman):
"Dismantling is a clumsy method of reducing Germany's war potential. When it is carried out with the methods used in Wuerttemberg it becomes indistinguishable from looting. The Swabians are a tough people, and, however many machines are taken away, we cannot destroy their skill. All we can do is to make them hate us and everything associated with us."
That is the view of the hon. Member for East Coventry, after a personal inspection of what has been going on.
I turn for a few moments to the wider question of Western Union. My own attitude towards this problem has changed somewhat under the impact and pressure of recent. events. The situation is one of such extreme urgency that there is no time to set up any kind of elaborate federal constitution. We must content ourselves, for the time being, with practical ad hoc arrangements which will work at once. I also think that a Union of Western Europe alone will no longer fill the bill. In order to stay the Communist advance through Germany to the Atlantic coast, we must have a comprehensive Western Union, including certain countries in Western Europe, the British Commonwealth and Empire, and the United States; and we must have it quickly, in view of the present situation.
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Where does the Foreign Secretary stand upon this issue? Because that is what I cannot make out. I listen carefully to what he says, but I get no further. He spoke fine words last January, but fine words are not enough. We are getting a bit tired of these resounding declarations which lead nowhere. As "The Economist" recently remarked, the stage props have been assembled, but of the great play called "Western Union" there is still no sign
Western Europe remains a disintegrated and disordered power vacuum, which, but for the military power and financial aid of the United States, would already have collapsed completely. The Foreign Secretary, in his speech the other day in the Debate on the Address, demolished the Interlaken proposals with what I thought was rather suspicious relish. It did not seem that his heart was very much in this business of Western Union. I agree that these resolutions were quite impracticable; but we should not forget that they are an expression of the desperation, amounting almost to despair, which now grips the Continent of Europe, and which those of us who have not recently been there do not realise in this country.
I managed, in the end, to get an Amendment accepted to the Preamble that one of the main objectives of a European Union must be to formulate a common policy of defence against aggression from without or from within. But, to my mind, the most significant feature of that conference was a strange, rather sad defeatist little Debate, which left a strong impression that many of the delegates really wished to avoid at all costs this issue of defence. It seemed to me that they no longer aspired to be a third world force; and were content, in the words of a paragraph which was mercifully expunged, to be a connecting link between the two great opposed world forces represented by the Soviet Union and the United States—the revival, in another form, of Litvinov's famous twentieth century narcotic, neutrality. That would, indeed, spell the doom of Western Europe. We may be on one side or the other; but we cannot be neutral in this struggle.
On that point, I should like to quote a rather remarkable passage from James

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Burnham's book, "The struggle for the World," because it has a bearing on the dangers which confront us at the moment.
"Between the two great antagonists there is this difference, that may decide. The Communist power moves towards the climax self-consciously, deliberately. Its leaders understand what is at stake. They have made their choice. All their energies, their resources, their determination, are fixed on the goal. But the Western Power gropes and lurches. Few of its leaders even want to understand. Like an adolescent plunged into his first great moral problem, it wishes, above all, to avoid responsibility for choice."
That is the great danger which I see confronts the Western democracies, and particularly those of Europe.
I regret all this chatter and writing of academic Federal constitutions, while Berlin burns. The theoretical best is so often the enemy of the practical good. All these hypothetical Federal constitutions only do damage to the cause of Western Union, because they frighten people off. It is always a mistake to cast oneself for a rôle which has already been played in another century. Sir Oswald Mosley, whose departure from cur public life I have often regretted, thought he was a cross between Julius Caesar and Lord Byron. The result was fatal. Now the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) has cast himself for the rôle of Alexander Hamilton. It will not do. There is no valid comparison between the American States of the 18th century and the Europe of today. Nevertheless, we ought to give a much clearer lead to Western Europe than the Foreign Secretary has yet given. They are looking for it. We have this responsibility. It is the responsibility of leadership; and my complaint against the Government is that they have not faced up to it.
The democracy of France is collapsing before our eyes. It is my belief that it will not recover until Western Union 'ceases to be a pious catch-phrase, and becomes a reality in some form or other. It will not do so until goods, money, and people can circulate much more freely than they are able to do at present. The chief contribution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to European unity this year has been to place a prohibitive duty on one of the chief French exports to this country, namely, wine—to the deep regret of all of us—and to ruin the Swiss and Belgian tourist trades. Nobody knows what he is going to do next year.
Mr. Harold Davies: It is quite unfair to put it that way. As the hon. Member knows, we have had the greatest difficulty up to this week in sending our coal to France.
Mr. Boothby: The price is too high. If we are not prepared to import the goods which France wishes to send us without slapping prohibitive duties on them, we are not going to get a good feeling between our two countries.
On this question of European Union, there are three aspects: defence, political, economic. The first two must precede the third, because security and political decisions are essential to effective economic co-operation. The O.E.E.C., to which everybody has paid tribute, has, in fact, managed, by the skin of its teeth, to dish out the dough; but it is now inevitably immersed in a sea of technicalities. Progress in the field of defence has been extremely disappointing; and in the political field there has been no progress at all.
I therefore want to make three practical proposals, because one must say where one stands in this matter of Western Union, just as one must face up to the issue that we may have to move in or out of Berlin. First, we ought, on the initiative of the British Government, to establish a proper functioning Council of Western Europe, including Western Germany. I would have Spain and Portugal in as well. We cannot bring in Greece and Turkey, because then it loses reality. I would have such a Council without further delay; and, by confining it to the Western States, we should avoid the structural confusion inherent in any organisation consisting of the Marshall countries as such. In addition, I would have a permanent International Secretariat, developed out of O.E.E.C., on the lines of S.H.A.E.F. Thirdly, I would have a purely deliberative assembly or senate, composed of representatives of the Parliaments of the countries concerned, to discuss matters of common interest.
I do not think there is anything very dangerous in those proposals. It is the first step at any rate. The Foreign Secretary said we must advance step by step. But he has not yet taken one effective step. I submit that these are three practical proposals, which might work; and which would bring immense encouragement to a lot of people in Western Europe

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who are now clinging desperately to the idea of Western Union.
In conclusion, I believe that the only hope for the future lies in integration and union. The greatest danger to our civilisation is a continuance of the present process of disintegration in the Western democratic world. The French Revolution gave birth to the conception that States and nations ought to coincide. This gave rise to the virulent nationalism of the 19th century, and to the Wilsonian principle of self-determination in this century. What happened? The victorious combination of Allied Powers was precipitately dissolved after the first world war. A number of small separate sovereign nation-States were brought into existence which made neither political nor economic sense; and indoctrinated with the principle of self-determination which meant, in practice, secession, disarmament, discord and isolation. As a result, a second attempt was made by Germany to impose integration on Europe by force. Unless such integration is achieved by voluntary co-operation, another attempt will inevitably be made to impose it by force—this time by Russia.
The tragedy of Benes epitomises the continuing tragedy of 20th century Europe. He never understood the nature of the forces with which he was contending. He was largely instrumental in bringing about the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire which, in retrospect, was a fatal mistake. The little nation-State, which he did so much to create, was absorbed, first, into the German, and then into the Russian Empire. It is easy now to see why. Little independent sovereign States are an anachronism in the present world. Neither politically nor economically can they stand on their own feet, a fact well recognised by the Russians.
It is the same in the East. I believe the liquidation of the British Empire in the East is an unmitigated disaster for the whole world; and the Americans, who are at least as much responsible for it as the present Government, will very soon find that out. The demands so strenuously put forward by so-called Left Wing democrats for complete sovereign independence are thought to be highly progressive, and very advanced, by those who
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make them. The editor of the "New Statesmen," who referred the other day to "the occupation of Norfolk bases by an alien air force," claps his hands with glee over the secession of Burma from the Commonwealth. Secession into what?—into chaos and civil war. The truth is that all these demands and secessions are, in essence, profoundly reactionary; and, if carried to their logical conclusion, will return the world to a condition of political and economic anarchy which can only breed pestilence, poverty and war.
The world was not a bad place under the Pax Romana; and it was not such a bad place under the Pax Britannica. At least, it was a sight better than it is now. The late Lord Tweedsmuir wrote that the Puritan was pre-eminently a destructive force, for he was without the historical sense, and sought less to erect and unite than to pull down and separate. That applies also to many of our Left Wing intellectuals today. They seek to pull down and separate; and the result, too often, is the destruction of things of great value, which have been an inspiration to mankind. I believe, with some passion, that the only hope for the salvation of our world and our civilisation lies in a revived belief in creation, integration and unity.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. Blackburn: It would be an impertinence for me to comment on the speech to which the House has just listened. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] It would be an impertinence because it was a deeply thought out speech, and one which should be studied in HANSARD. I hesitate to agree with the hon. Gentleman, even though he has applauded the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman).
I wish to speak—and I hope it will not be counted by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) as a discourtesy—about what I regard as the attacks upon the Foreign Secretary. First, I want to ask this question. Who in this House of Commons has the right to attack the Foreign Secretary? Has the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) who was once Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs? Have the party opposite? What right have they to attack His

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Majesty's Government, assuming that they believe that at the moment we are pursuing a policy which smacks a little of the Neville Chamberlain policy of appeasement? What right have hon. Members opposite to utter, as I have heard them utter, reproaches which they dare not utter in public with the full flavour that they would like to give, on the ground that this Government is alleged in some way to have entered into a policy of appeasement, when they themselves were responsible for that policy of appeasement which led to the last war?
I ask that question today, and let me say that in asking it I am not seeking to curry any favour with my own party. I was re-adopted on Monday night by my constituency, and I have waited to make this speech until after I was re-adopted. I believe that it is absolutely monstrous for hon. Members opposite to attack the Foreign Secretary or to sneer at him with all the great responsibility which he has, unless they themselves are prepared to come forward and say what they would do. Has the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden told us whether two months ago, in his opinion, convoys ought to have been taken through to Berlin? I shall give my opinion tonight. In my opinion, convoys ought to have gone through, with the Red flag if necessary, and by agreement with America and France.
I say that, and I have said it publicly. But has the right hon. Gentleman said it? Has anybody on the Conservative Front Bench said it? What right have they to talk about appeasement, unless they themselves are prepared to indicate what action they would take? Whoever is to wind up for the Opposition will not dare to say on behalf of the Opposition that they favour taking convoys through to Berlin. Therefore, neither he nor anybody on the Conservative benches have a jot or tittle of title to accuse the Government tonight.
No Labour Members who abstained from voting on the Motion of the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) have the right to criticise the Foreign Secretary, because that was a vote which said we ought to be neutral as between the United States of America and Russia. It was a three-line Whip and any hon. Member on this side of the House who abstained from voting on that occasion, has no right whatever to criticise the
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Foreign Secretary. And then it comes down to myself. Finally, I have no right to criticise the Foreign Secretary—none whatever. I have criticised him; I spoke immediately after him in the conference of December, 1944, the conference in London, and I was utterly wrong about Greece and he was completely in the right. I very much regret that fact. I now know I was wrong.
Let me, however, now come to the guts of the matter. It is this. Funnily enough, it was in the papers. I very rarely read Sunday newspapers, but someone brought in the "Sunday Dispatch," and it had a leading article. [Interruption.] I beg hon. Members on this side to bear with me for one moment. In this Tory paper it said in effect, "No, this is not 1938" and why? Why did this Conservative newspaper say it was not 1938? Precisely because—
Mr. Pickthorn: Because it is 1948.
Mr. Blackburn: The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) underestimates the intelligence of his own newspapers. No: the newspaper said the complete difference between 1938 and 1948 was this: that today we have the United States of America with us and in 1938 we did not have the United States of America with us, and that because of that, we are so strong that the Soviet Union will not dare to challenge our authority. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman nods his head. That is, in fact, demonstrably true, but may I ask the hon. Member for Cambridge University not to forget this—he has every opportunity to reply; he is winding up; he is one of the big battalions, whereas I am merely a small individual; I think at least he might be courteous while I am speaking; he has 20 to 25 minutes while I have only 10 minutes—I ask him not to forget this about the Foreign Secretary. The Foreign Secretary of the party which, according to the party opposite, would alienate the United States of America, has kept the United States of America solidly with us the whole time. That is his great achievement.
May I go a little further to say that through the Marshall Plan he has initiated Western Union and the idea of Western Union. He is the leading exponent of a policy by which 16 States of Europe are today trying to plan their economy. Is that a

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small thing or is that a great thing? Let me go a little further and ask hon. Members on this side something about the United States of America. Hon. Members talk about the United States as a capitalist country. Is it really a capitalist policy to give money to people? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] All I can say, then, is that if there is any capitalist on the other side who is prepared to give me money, personally, I am perfectly willing to take it.
I want to say one word about a speech of great importance which has been grossly misunderstood. People always quote the Foreign Secretary as having said, "Left cleaves to left" at the Blackpool Conference. I have taken great trouble over this and I challenge any hon. Member on this side to dispute that when he said, "Left cleaves to left" he was referring not to the Soviet Union but to France. What he said about the Soviet Union was far more profound. He said, "Let us get the conferences and when we get conferences, let them be conferences; let us not have long distance telephone calls." I challenge any hon. Member here to read the right hon. Gentleman's speech at Blackpool and deny that, and I say I believe it was the most fore-sighted speech that I have ever read in my life.
Let me come now to the main issue—what shall we do now? I do not wish for one moment to evade it. I said, and I repeated two months ago, that in my opinion, after giving due warning to the Soviet Union we should have stated we were prepared, in co-operation with America and France, to send convoys under red flags—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why red?"]—red flags because, after all, it is the red flag's mission to bring food to beleaguered people. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] The red flag for the Communists and the Red Cross flag for us. I am quite clear about this, that any such mission would have to be planned as a full military operation. The bridges might be blown up. We might have to guard bridges. Well then, we should have to do it. I believe we still ought to do that, and I agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). If we do that, I still believe there will be no resistance. I may be wrong, but I believe that this step ought to be taken now. I also
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believe that the party opposite ought to tell us where they stand, and that they ought to tell us tonight.
I have only two more points to make. The next is, I believe, fundamental. Nothing I say tonight is in any way intended as criticism of the Foreign Secretary. I mean that quite sincerely, and for this reason—[Interruption.] I have a right to state my reason, despite barracking, and I shall state it. The reason I give is this, that the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister cannot get up at the Despatch Box here and tell us what they think. They have got to get the French Government and the United States Government to agree.
Mr. Platts-Mills: And take their orders.
Mr. Blackburn: If anybody seriously criticises the Government, he has to criticise them, not for what they are saying tonight, but for what they failed to get the United States and the French Government to agree with us about. So what I am saying is not any criticism of the Foreign Secretary. I believe a mishandling of the situation in Berlin occurred. We said we would not negotiate while the blockade was on. What on earth have we been doing in the last two months? What has Frank Roberts been doing, and the ambassadors in Moscow, if not negotiating? We said we would not negotiate under duress. Yet we have done it for two months. That is a small matter in a sense, but it is a big matter in another sense.
Why did the last war start? Because Hitler believed that after he had overrun Poland Britain would enter negotiations for separate terms of peace. The danger of another war is the same that Stalin and the Russians will not believe that we mean what we say. Therefore, there is one cardinal rule for our foreign policy which must be followed, and that is that we must not say anything we do not mean 100 per cent. Yet we have done it once or twice. We must not say anything we do not mean and are not prepared ourselves to back up by force.
I want to finish on an entirely different note. I hope the House will bear with me on this occasion, because it is something I feel personally very deeply. It is nearly a year ago since, at about six o'clock in the morning, the great Bul-

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garian patriot, Nicolai Petkov, was taken out and hanged by the neck. It took him about 10 minutes to die a nasty death. The full facts are now appearing. But I am reminded of the words of a great Englishman, John Donne:
"Every man's death embarrasses me,
Because I am involved in mankind.
Wherefore send not to know
For whom the bell tolls:
It tolls for thee."
I believe that the bell that tolled for Nicolai Petkov tolled for every one of us in this House of Commons. I believe that we may avert this dread catastrophe of war if we are now firm and resolute, and if we indicate that we are not prepared to submit to blackmail.
9.5 p.m.
Mr. Pickthorn: I hope that the House will forgive me two sentences of prefatory apology. First, generally, I think, I am as willing as anyone to give way to interruptions, but on this occasion I desire to speak to an exact time schedule. I desire, as far as can be reasonably hoped, not to be unnecessarily controversial, and I hope, therefore, that I shall be forgiven if I do not invite, and even do not admit, interruptions. Secondly, I hope that the House will forgive me in another particular. One who speaks last from either side in a Debate of this class of importance is faced with an extremely difficult choice. It is much the more difficult for one, like myself, who is not in a position to employ others to act as secretary or otherwise to take half the burden off his shoulders. The choice before a person in my position is either that he should retire from the Chamber for an hour-and-a-half or two hours, according to the quickness of his wit and in that time compose his answer to the Debate, thereby missing half of it or very nearly, or, alternatively, he can sit in the Chamber throughout and make a speech which may not have the logical construction and concentration he should give to it. I hope that the House will forgive me for having chosen the second alternative. I hope that all I have to say has a logical connection, but I am extremely conscious that what I have to say will not be said in the right order.
I begin where the Foreign Secretary began, leaving out the German Generals, who seem to me a comparatively minor
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point—I begin with Palestine. The Foreign Secretary told us that Count Bernadotte recommended that there should be every reasonable assurance to the Arabs. He added that in his opinion—that is His Britannic Majesty's Foreign Secretary's opinion—the United Nations should give specific guarantees to the Arabs. I assume that the Foreign Secretary, speaking after advice, in a Debate on a date chosen by him, distinguishes between assurances and guarantees. I assume that when the Foreign Secretary does that, he is conscious of what he is doing, and if not, the Under-Secretary ought to correct the House's impression this afternoon, because if the Foreign Secretary was conscious of what he was doing, there is all the difference between assurances and guarantees. I may assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I will pay your debts, but if I guarantee your debts that means that I put such sum of money as will cover your debts within the control of some other person, so that your creditors may be guaranteed repayment. A guarantee is in law and in diplomacy a technical term. The Foreign Secretary was once the "Dockers K.C." He would not carefully use the word "guarantee" and carefully contrast it with the word "assurance" unless he knew what he was doing—and I should be the last to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman ever does not know what he is doing—and if by any chance he did not know what he was doing, then the House ought to be better informed before we rise tonight.
The next point to which I come—and I think probably almost the only one on which I can address the House in the time at my disposal—is the question of Germany and in particular of Berlin. I would like, therefore, to begin with a question to the Under-Secretary which is related to our previous Debates in this short Session. The Foreign Secretary told us that Western Germany was being invited—indeed I think directed—to find for itself a democratic constitution within the limits laid down by the occupying Power. Now, I think I am in a minority almost of one on this point, the immediate point to which I come first, and that is that in my judgment it has always been a mistake to suppose that an occupying Power has the right to direct the constitution making of any territory. I have always thought that a mistake. I think it is too long an argument to go

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into now, but I think that it is one of the roots of the troubles we are now in. Nevertheless, pass that for a moment. Pass secondly the logical difficulty that if "democracy" means the setting up of Government by the consent of the governed, it is rather difficult to see how that can be done within conditions imposed by an occupying Power. That is a logical difficulty too. But pass that one, and I come to a specific question which I will put to the Under-Secretary, and I hope we shall not rise tonight without his answering it.
The right hon. Gentleman told us that there were certain basic principles of a democratic constitution within which the Germans had to act, which include guarantees—and I have already indicated to the House what I think about the word "guarantees"—of individual rights. Now the question I have to put is this: Do these basic principles within which the Germans are to make their constitution, do these guarantees of individual rights—which are the minimum within which they are to erect a constitution—do they include this, that the new Government so established shall not be entitled by the vote of one Chamber retrospectively to alter the rules under which it itself acts? Are those among the democratic limits within which the Germans have to find themselves a constitution? I think we ought to be told. We know that those are not the democratic principles within which this country has to find itself a constitution. That we know.
Now we ought to be told: Are those among the democratic principles within which, under British occupation of Germany, the Germans have to find themselves a democratic constitution? I think that a specific, a quite clear and a perfectly fair question. It cannot come as a surprise to anybody. We know it has been the matter of everybody's thoughts for the last two or three weeks. I put the question quite fairly, and I think we ought to have a specific answer to it.
Then there is another question which I wish to put, and it is on this difficult problem of reparations and dismantling. It is a difficult problem. I fully understand that. I fully accept the three principles which the right hon. Gentleman told us that he had accepted from the Coalition and Caretaker Governments. I
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fully accept that. But I am bound to say that his indication of the practical difficulties did seem to me very difficult to follow.
I do not know if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have, all of them, seen the performance of a great artist whose name was Grock. He was, I think, fundamentally more serious than the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary—indeed, than any of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite—but he was also extremely laughable. I do not know if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite remember one part of his turn where he used to find that the piano stool was a little too far away from the grand piano, and he used to spend a very long time trying to push the grand piano up to within reach of the piano stool before it occurred to him that the piano stool might possibly he moved up to the grand piano.
Now, similarly, when this afternoon the right hon. Gentleman told us that there was machinery in Germany which could not be used where it is because of the want of skilled labour or of materials there, and that therefore it ought to be removed for that reason, it did occur to me that he might be falling into what I might call the "Grock fallacy," and that really that argument ought not to be made by statesmen who have it within their power to control the flow of raw materials
The main difficulty of our Debate today—I shall not be long, so I hope hon. Gentlemen will find it possible to listen to me—is the assumption that you are always in a condition—the Under-Secretary at least really should listen to me. The Under-Secretary has not been here for a very long time this afternoon. I will take this time out of the Under-Secretary's time. [Laughter.] Any time he does not appear to be listening to me, I shall take out of his time. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should not think that every argument is to be answered by factious laughter; that is not a key that fits all locks. I would ask him to consider this fact: they pose themselves as being the world's last line of resistance against totalitarianism because they stand for Socialism combined with democracy, they stand for economic Socialism combined with Parliamentary government. That is the only justification—I am sure every candid hon. Gentleman opposite will

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agree that is the only justification for their existence as a party and as a Government.
Mrs. Nichol: A very good one.
Mr. Pickthorn: It is a very good one if it stands up. Very well, then. Upon the assumption that there is their justification, I ask them to consider this. Parliamentary government consists, has consisted for many generations in this country, in the control of government; most of all, perhaps, in the control of foreign policy by persons who are politically strong enough to control foreign policy because of their Parliamentary performance. That is what Parliamentary government is. Now a series of accidents, including the last war, made the right hon. Gentleman the present Foreign Secretary into a Cabinet Minister without ever having been in the House of Commons. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh.''] Certainly that is so, there is no use denying it.
That being so, there is an unusually heavy duty lying upon hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to see that foreign policy continues to be guided by discussion in this House. How many external Ministers have we got now—with respect to the hon. Gentleman opposite—not counting Under-Secretaries? There is the Colonial Secretary, the Minister of State, the Minister of Commonwealth Relations, and so on and so on. Yet hardly ever is one of them able to be here except when he himself is speaking. They really must get it into their heads that they cannot pose as defenders of Parliamentary government unless they are prepared to be here, and unless they are prepared to listen.
That was a digression, which I take out of the time of the Under-Secretary. I return to my main argument. The principal difficulty of our Debate today has been the 19th Century assumption that either you have war or you have peace. But that is no longer—if I may use a word once used by my right hon. Leader—an exclusive dichotomy; the two things do not cover all the possible situations. We are not now in a condition either of war or of peace, we are in a condition of continual guerrilla which has been going on now for at least three years; a guerrilla war, a little war has
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been fought against us and is being fought against us in the Balkans, in many parts of the East—most noticeably in Malaya. And it does not rely upon my assertion, that statement. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary said as much in the references he made to Malaya a week ago. There is a guerrilla being fought against us in various parts of the world. I take only three—Greece, Palestine, Malaya. [An HON. MEMBER: "Palestine? "] Certainly Palestine. About Palestine I cannot say all I want to say tonight. I have, I think, said all I must say.
About Greece I wish to ask the Under-Secretary this and I hope he will answer it—again I asked the question, I think, long ago, so there has been full notice —at what stage has there been or at what stage will there be indication to U.N.O. by His Majesty's Government that unless U.N.O. recognises, however it acts on the most striking facts it is bound, whatever our will, to turn into a nonentity. Does anyone doubt that for months, for years now, parts of the Balkan peninsula, particularly Albania, have been used and exploited as a place d'armes, a place for manoeuvre? Is that doubted? If it is doubted I think the Under-Secretary should tell us. I think his senior has clearly indicated the contrary. Will the Under-Secretary tell us when we did or if not yet when we are going to, draw the attention of U.N.O. to that state of affairs? It is not for us to dictate what U.N.O. ought to do but I think it is clearly the duty of His Majesty's Government to make quite plain to the United Nations organisation when there is a state of fact which in an earlier state of civilisation would amount to war, that it is the duty of His Majesty's Government to make sure that that state of fact is brought to their attention. I want to know whether that has been done or when it is going to be done.
The same is true about Malaya. I thought the right hon. Gentleman rather over-did the Communist side of Malaya. I think the non-Communist ingredient in the Malayan business is greater than he admitted. I think it was incompetence by His Majesty's present Government which enabled the difficulties partly endemic and partly epidemic in the Malayan Peninsula to be exploited and integrated by an outside power into what amounts now to

1003
insurrection. I think the right hon. Gentleman over-did the Communist control: at least, he certainly put Communist control in Malaya very high. If he puts it anything like so high, it is his duty if he is conscious of that happening, as His Majesty's principle adviser on foreign affairs to bring that matter to the power most likely to have an influence on it. I brought that matter forward 10 days ago, so there's been ample notice given of the question; when was that done and if it has not been done, why has it not been done? [An HON. MEMBER: "Is this the same speech as last week?"] No it is not the same speech as last week. I hope I shall not get quite the same meaningless answer.
I come back now to what has been the liveliest subject in our Debate today, the Berlin situation. I was interested in one phrase used by the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon. He said it was a remarkable feat that we should have carried out the air lift—and I agree it was a very remarkable feat but an even more remarkable feat was his expression that we should have carried out this air lift under ordinary conditions of peace. These are "ordinary conditions of peace." We, in conjunction with allies, one of whom is the Soviet Government. occupy Berlin—
Mr. McAllister: Surely the hon. Member—
Mr. Pickthorn: I am not going to give way. It will be found in HANSARD that I am quoting correctly.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman said it in those words and hon. Members know it.
Mr. Pickthorn: "Under ordinary conditions of peace"—I want to know what are the ordinary conditions of peace. He also told us that we should continue to keep the air lift working at the cost of considerable discomfort to the Berliner. The lift had been difficult for them, they had borne it very well but we could carry on, at a cost of considerable discomfort to them. Very true, I hope, but the right hon. Gentleman should have mentioned also at what cost to us. How many hundreds of thousands of pounds are to be spent every day, or every week?
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Is it known how much interference is being caused to the proper development of the Air Force by the air lift? Is that known, because it ought to be known; we should be clear about it? We were told that we would not negotiate under duress, but surely one is under duress if one is negotiating with a party who is compelling one, as long as negotiations continue, to spend large sums of money or to hold up the organisation of one's business. We ought to be told what is the whole cost to us.
We ought also to be told what is the policy. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say that he cannot tell us today. If he cannot tell us today—I am very sorry that the Lord President of the Council is not here—why are we not told when we can be told, why are we not held together until we can be told? All our business and all our pleasure is interrupted, and in a sense rightly interrupted, when there is any legislative business which His Majesty's Government with the utmost extreme of tortuous and disingenuous logic can hold to be necessary.
But far more important than any business of legislation is this business of defence and of our relations to the world. If hon. Gentlemen opposite ever doubted that let them doubt it no longer. They may once have taught their followers that external affairs mattered only to the ruling classes, mattered only to the officer caste, or something of that sort. They may once have thought that, but now they know, or do they not even now know, that they would have one million, two million, three million unemployed or starving or both, or war, if their external affairs were in any respect worse than they are, That they know now, surely.
Nevertheless, for month after month they have had the effrontery to tell us that the most urgent matters of external affairs were not yet ripe for discussion here, and even today they are not yet ripe for discussion here. The right hon. Gentleman has gone off somewhere else where they are ripe for discussion—but not yet here. If that is so, and if that is necessarily so, why is it that we are not told that next week or the week after or the week after that, there really will be a possibility of Debates which may affect the decisions of His Majesty's Government in this greatest of all questions
9.28 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): I am indeed glad that the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) has not carried out his somewhat juvenile threat to deprive me of a few minutes of my time as the result of a few words to my neighbour on this Bench while he was speaking. It would of course have made it impossible for me to answer the numerous questions which he was simultaneously asking me. A number of those questions were wholly irrelevant to foreign affairs. There was a large passage of opposition to the Parliament Bill. There were a large number of thoroughly partisan and irresponsible references to unemployment. Sometimes I feel that it is high time the hon. Member for Cambridge University graduated.
There was, however, one question of some importance and some relevance to the Debate which he asked and which seems to me worthy of a reply on behalf of the Government. It was the question about Palestine. It is an important matter and one on which it is particularly difficult for me to make a specific statement on behalf of the Government, namely what precisely is intended by "special guarantees" in the Report of the Mediator.
Mr. Pickthorn: Does it mean guarantees or does it not?
Mr. Mayhew: The quotation comes from the Mediator's report which was published very recently and was endorsed only today by His Majesty's Government. Clearly there must be long discussion on the precise meaning to be given to that. I would, however, say on this subject that at least there is an idea in our minds that, if pending agreement between the parties in Palestine, the boundaries recommended should be violated as a result of force, the Assembly should recommend the Security Council to decide that it is a threat to the peace. That is the way our minds have been working. But the House should know another relevant factor which is that, if as a result of the recommendations of the Mediator, parts of the Arab part of Palestine go to Transjordan and a small part to Egypt, then I am advised that the areas concerned would be covered by the existing Anglo-Transjordan and Anglo-Egyptian Treaties.
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That is relevant I think to the point raised by the hon. Member for Cambridge University.
I was also asked another question on Palestine by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) who urged the Government to grant recognition to the provisional Government of Israel. He will have heard my right hon. Friend state our views when replying to questions this afternoon. The acceptance of the report of the Mediator does not involve recognition, either by this country or any Arab State which might agree to accept the Report. Our position remains as it has been, namely, that during the period of the truce, for us to recognise the provisional Government of Israel would, in effect, be a form of political intervention unwise in the existing circumstances of the truce. We must know before we recognise the State of Israel what precisely it is that we are recognising. Also, we must have an assurance, as surely recent events have shown, that the Government can control its supporters. We say, therefore, that it would be no contribution to this Palestine problem to grant recognition at the present time to the State of Israel. Indeed, while the truce lasts I think it would be a most unhappy and ill-judged thing to do. No doubt as the position develops we may wish to reconsider our attitude.
The problem of Palestine has, however, lain rather outside the general trend of the Debate today. Most of the speeches have been concerned with the Berlin situation, the biggest issue of foreign affairs—
Mr. R. A. Butler: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the question of Palestine would be give me an answer as to the laying of a White Paper?
Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. We will of course gladly do so. We have already made arrangements to lay a White Paper on the report of the Mediator.
The principal topic has been Berlin, the biggest issue of foreign affairs. There the speeches on both sides have shown I think, with one or two discordant voices, a remarkable unity of view—that the Western Powers must maintain their determination to assert their rights in Berlin. My right hon. Friend would wish me to acknowledge the many helpful and responsible speeches made on both sides

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of the House in the course of the Debate. Where there has been criticism on this issue it has mostly been that the patience of my right hon. Friend with the Soviet Government has been altogether excessive. That is where the main body of criticism has come in this Debate, though it was accompanied invariably, as the hon. Member for Kings Norton (Mr. Blackburn) pointed out, by no constructive suggestions as to any alternative policy that should be adopted. The unity that we have seen in the House today is, of course, parallelled in the country too. I hope that this will be noted by overseas as well as home observers. For example, I noticed in "Pravda" last week that it was stated that in Britain, as elsewhere in the west, the gulf between the working masses and the right wing Socialist ruling cliques is growing deeper and deeper. The same sentiment in a very different context was recently expressed by Lord Woolton on behalf of the Conservative Party. Lord Woolton's view was nonsense. "Pravda's" view is, I think, also dangerous nonsense.
Of course, the truth, as I have said, is that it is a dangerous illusion to suppose that there is somewhere a mythical working mass opposed to the allegedly undemocratic policy of the Government. Our own experience, the Debates in the House, public opinion polls, if I am allowed to quote them in the House of Commons, all show that such opposition as there is to the Foreign Secretary in this country—and it is not very great—comes from those who feel that his patience with the Soviet Government is excessive. I think it is as well that that should be known.
One of the two discordant notes was struck by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) in one of his usual vigorous speeches which, I am told, was excellently answered by the hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. McGovern), who invariably answers in the most appropriate possible form the speeches of the hon. Member for Mile End. I was not here for the speech of the hon. Member for Mile End, but I would say this if the House will allow me, irrelevantly. It makes me sad to see, after the hard work put in by the hon. Member for Mile End and the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), that they should
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continue to be cold shouldered out of the Cominform. This is a thing that has struck me deeply recently. The British Communist Party may be very small, it may be very uninfluential; and it may be true that in the most classconscious of the working-class districts of this country in any municipal election, any Communist candidate will come right at the bottom of the poll; nevertheless, the British Communist Party is as hard working and as loyal to the Kremlin as any in the world. I am trying to help the candidature of the hon. Members to the Cominform. I say that with truth, and I think it is grotesquely unjust that even their comrades should so despise them as not to admit them to the Cominform.
The second discordant note was struck by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) who, in a sincere speech was listened to with great respect by the House, expressed the pacifist views which he has held for so long. I am bound to agree with the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. F. Maclean). Sometimes it is hard when one listens to a pacifist claiming a monopoly of the hatred of war. I often feel that some of us who have actually had to fight them might be credited occasionally with a little dislike of war ourselves. However, with that exception, and with the exception that again I agree with the hon. Member for Lancaster that in actual cold fact the existence of pacifists and pacifism in this country is no contribution whatever to the peace of the world—none whatever—in spite of all that, I think we all listened with great respect to the hon. Member's speech. We acknowledge his right to express his views freely and, as far as the best of the pacifists go, this House and the country would be a poorer place without them. I also wish to apologise on behalf of the Government for the invitation sent to him to address a recruiting campaign. I am bound to say that that is carrying preparedness to excessive lengths. The international situation is grave, but not as grave as that.
A number of speakers have criticised the Government on the grounds that we have, in fact, been negotiating under duress; the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) and several other hon. Members made this point. My right hon. Friend never meant, and I do

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not think any reasonable person could have thought that he meant, that we would refuse to talk to the Russians about the conditions under which the blockade could be lifted. We specifically excluded any other subjects than what was to be done to start negotiations. We have discussed no point of substance relating to the future of Germany.
These are the facts, and it is still fair to say that we have not been negotiating under duress. I am handicapped in trying to pursuade the House of this because of the secrecy with which we still have to treat this subject, because the talks with the other three foreign Ministers are still going on; but we are entitled to say that, while we have talks with the Russians about the conditions under which the blockade can be lifted, there has been no weakness, no negotiation under duress and none of the appeasements which has been so entirely unjustly and without evidence attributed to my right hon. Friend by some speakers in the Debate.
For the rest of his speech, the hon. Member for Lancaster was gloomy, partisan and unconstructive. He told us a number of perfectly obvious platitudes. He said it was unfortunate that we had got ourselves into the position in which we find ourselves in Berlin, without any suggestion as to how it could have been avoided or differently handled.
The second main body of criticism has been that we are not going fast enough in the arrangements of defence, in political organisation and in the O.E.E.C. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) said so, and he was supported by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) and by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley). On the subject of defence arrangements the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden asked why we did not extend this hard core of the Brussels Powers to the new Italy, the Atlantic countries and so on. My right hon. Friend, I know, appreciates and understands that line of thought, but the right hon. Gentleman opposite will understand that I am not in a position at the moment to give full details. I can assure him that much work has been done, and work according to his prescription.
I would remind him of the security talks in Washington recently, of the forth-
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coming meeting of the Defence Ministers of the Brussels Powers next week, and that, at the recent meeting of the Military Committee of the Brussels Powers, there was an attendance of observers from the United States and Canada. All these things are relevant and all build up to a picture, and the fact that the full extent of this work 'is not told does not mean that we are unaware of its importance, or that we are not pushing ahead as quickly as we possibly can, and along the general lines indicated by the right hon. Gentleman.
The only bone I would pick with the right hon. Gentleman was in regard to his reference to the Iberian Peninsula. If one is a Conservative statesman and wishes to attack Franco Spain one refers to Spain as the Iberian Peninsula, or perhaps, Franco Spain was not intended by that reference? More frankly the hon. Member for East Aberdeen suggested that the time had come to bring Spain into Western Union.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Stupidity, prejudice.
Mr. Mayhew: If it is prejudice to decline to enter into an alliance with a Fascist country, it is a pity there is not more prejudice on the other benches. We were also accused of not going fast enough in the economic field, in the work of O.E.E.C.
Mr. R. A. Butler: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the last point, I hope that his general, sweeping remarks did not refer to Portugal, which I happened to mention today?
Mr. Mayhew: No, certainly not; I was only referring to Franco Spain, not to Portugal.
On the subject of O.E E.C., we were accused, as I say, of not going fast enough. But I would ask hon. Members to look back 18 months and to consider how far we have gone since then in European economic co-operation. If one looks back to the time before Mr. Marshall made his speech at Harvard, and considers the degree to which we have got the habit of common action in Western Europe, one cannot but marvel at the amount we have achieved. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen referred contemptuously to the work of O.E.E.C., so far, as "dishing out the dough," and

1011
intimated that it was an easy and rather discreditable task. It is not; it is an extremely complex, difficult, and worthy task for O.E.E.C. to be doing. It is a great achievement for these countries to have reached agreement on the difficult subject of the division of Marshall Aid, a subject involving all kinds of political and economic difficulties, and all kinds of conflicts of different interests. The fact that they were able, by free discussion, to reach agreement, was, I consider, a first-class achievement.
Secondly, we have prepared, and almost completed, the intra-European payments scheme. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke about this at considerable length in the Debate last week, and I do not propose to cover the same ground. It is a scheme of enormous importance for facilitating intra-European trade. We hope the agreement will be ratified on 1st October. We do not claim that the scheme is perfect by any means, and we reserve our right to improve it as experience shows where it can be improved. That, again, is an achievement of concrete importance to European unity.
Now we come to the third stage—perhaps the most spectacular of all—the preparation of the four-year plan which will, by uniting the production and trade plans of the member nations into a single plan, lay the foundations for Europe's economic independence by the year 1952–53. That may seem a dry and dreary task but, in point of fact, these programmes which will be asked for from each of the 16 member countries—programmes relating to their production targets for the next four years, their trade policies, their imports, exports, and prices—will mean a revolution in the possibilities of planning economic recovery in Western Europe.
We have already started on the job. The country plans will be in by 1st October, and they will then be knit together into a single four-year plan to make Western Europe viable. That will be the moment—when we have that information and when we can see the economic prospects in some detail—for the Western Union countries, both individually and as a whole, to take up the points which the right hon. Gentleman put to me about what he called the further economic integration of Western Europe. Though
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economic integration is a far-reaching and rather vague term, it describes the kind of projects which we have in mind—projects for avoiding wasteful capital expenditure and for the co-ordination of food production in the different Western European countries. The hon. Member for Buckingham in his excellent speech, mentioned the possibilities of co-ordinating steel production in Western Europe and the importance of surveying together the steel production in Germany and in Britain.
The time to see what is possible and what is desirable is when we have the country programmes in on 1st October for the four-year plan of European viability, because it is no good academically picking out steel or foodstuffs or whatever it may be and asking ourselves whether that is a good thing to work on or not. The proper empirical way to go about it is to make viability the overriding criterion, to ask what Europe needs to stand on its own feet and be independent, and out of, one's study of that to see what are the prospects of coordinating the steel production or the food production or the foodstuffs imports of the various European countries. That is the attitude of mind of my right hon. Friend. It is a business-like, empirical approach and one which we mean to pursue with great seriousness.
Those were two things on which we were told we were not going fast enough. There was a noticeable absence on the Opposition side of pressure to hurry up with the great schemes of Western Federation which we have heard so much about. Indeed, I was astonished to notice that the right hon. Gentleman, speaking for the Conservative Opposition, had nothing to say on this topic at all. Even more significant, perhaps, is the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has not even seen fit to attend this Debate, and I consider these facts are significant.
Hon. Members: Where is the Prime Minister?
Mr. E. L. Gandar Dower: Has the Prime Minister got cold feet?
Mr. Mayhew: All these interruptions cannot hide the fact that the Conservative Party is cooling off about their Western Federation proposals. That is the truth. That is perfectly plain on all

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sides. If not, they have only to put up their spokesmen to press us on this point. The truth is that my right hon. Friend has persuaded the Opposition on this point. They have begun to realise the difficulties of some of the wild schemes which they were attacking Labour for not supporting.
The truth is that my right hon. Friend is concentrating on the substance of European unity rather than on the form of European unity. The truth is that the critics are spending great thought and energy on formal constitutions, on the apparatus of federal and confederate government. I read in "The Times" this morning that certain people say, "We agree that the case against a federal or a confederate solution is strong; all we want is an assembly." There is an underlying unfairness about that position, because the whole purpose of the assembly is to discuss a federal or confederate solution. If one opposes the one, it is a little hypocritical to criticise people who will not go to an assembly to discuss it.
We, on the other hand, say that we need the substance of unity. We need to ask ourselves what are the precise acts of co-operation which are desired, and in which particular fields. It may be a question of the production of fighter planes, or of Belgium's position as a creditor. It may be the attitude of the Western democratic powers towards Franco Spain. Whatever it is, we ask ourselves on what precise things do we need to co-operate. When that is done, it is seen that the machinery for cooperation is capable of performing these tasks nine times out of 10 without the erection of great federal or confederate constitutions, without jeopardising our Commonwealth relations and without all the difficulties and many of the wild schemes that have been put forward.
Sometimes I feel that those who put forward these schemes are trying to bring the countries of Western Europe together to have the largest number of arguments about the matters of the least immediate importance. My right hon. Friend is determined not to prejudice the very real measure of practical co-operation we are getting, and which is growing and which he means to grow, by diverting the energies of this new team of countries to tasks of co-operation which are, in fact, beyond their strength and not of im-
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mediate importance. There is a saying that it is better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all, but in my view the wisdom of that saying is vastly over-rated and applied to Western Europe in the context of the present international situation there is no truth in it at all. There is too little margin in the defence of democracy to attempt and to fail to carry through very ambitious schemes of that kind.
Mr. Harold Macmillan: If the hon. Member will permit me for a moment. I did not wish to intervene in the flow of his argument, but before he finishes, there is just time for him to deal with this point. We have seen the news that a new note has been sent tonight, or will be sent tomorrow, by the three Powers in reply to Mr. Molotov's aide memoire. If this is so, we should be very grateful if he could tell the House about it before he finishes; if he could also tell the House whether before we adjourn for a month we shall be given any information as to the contents of that note and as to the situation which is created by it. It seems rather difficult to conduct the whole of this day's Debate and only to learn by chance, upon the tape machine, that the most important element in it, the presentation of a new and, we understand, final note, if that is true, has just been decided upon by the three Powers.
Mr. Mayhew: It is true that a note was presented this evening at seven o'clock to the Soviet Ambassador but, quite apart from the fact that I am allowed only a few minutes until ten o'clock, I think I am entitled to ask for notice of this very important point.
Mr. Macmillan: When I said "before we adjourn," I did not mean before we adjourn tonight, but before we adjourn for a month on the day after tomorrow.
Mr. Mayhew: I do not think I can commit my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House at this stage, but it will, of course, be open to the right hon. Gentleman to raise the matter tomorrow, perhaps, when we have had time to think it over. I do not want to make any commitments at the present time.
If I may finish what I was saying, in case it sounds as though I have poured cold water on some of the schemes, I

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would like to make it quite clear that my right hon. Friend is not content to leave the machinery of Western Union cooperation where it stands now, but that he regards it as something growing and something developing. He expects new institutions, including an assembly for Western Europe, to take shape, but he does say that our approach to it must be empirical and that it must grow naturally out of our experience, out of our habit of common action, and not artificially with the risk of seriously compromising the actual practical co-operation which we have already achieved.
I am afraid I have been unable to covet very many of the points raised in the Debate tonight. I apologise to hon. Members for this. I will end by saying, if I may, that the speeches rightly have emphasised the gravity of the present situation. Some of them, if I may say so, have. I think, over-estimated the difficulties which face us and perhaps rather under-estimated some of the weaknesses—
It being Ten o' Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment lapsed without Question put.

FARM WORKERS (EXTRA RATIONS)
10.0 p.m.
Mr. Hurd: I beg to move,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Order, dated 3rd August, 1948, entitled the Food (Seasonal Allowances) Order, 1948 (S.1., 1948, No. 1823), a copy of which was delivered to the Votes and Proceedings Office on 3rd August, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled."
For many months past we have been trying to persuade the Minister of Food to adopt a sensible policy for the issue of the small seasonal extra rations that are allowed for farm workers at hay time, the corn harvest, and the time when potatoes and sugar beet are lifted—the times when the farm workers are most busy. These modest allowances—and they are very modest—are four-fifths of an ounce of sugar, a quarter of an ounce of tea, three-quarters of an ounce of margarine, two-fifths of an ounce of cheese, three-quarters of an ounce of preserves, and half a point per day. These little extra rations are supposed to make up for the lack of canteens. It is impracticable, I think we must all re-
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cognise, for the establishment of works canteens, which are so useful in industry, throughout the farms of this country, but those of us who represent agricultural constituencies cannot help feeling a little envy when we set these very, modest allowances against the generous allowances of rationed goods which go to the works canteens. The Minister gave us the particulars in a Written Answer to a Question yesterday.
We have pressed the Minister to allow farm workers or their wives to draw these extra allowances directly. We have pressed that the farm workers and their wives should be trusted, in just the same way as miners and their wives are trusted to draw the extra meat ration directly. There is no new principle involved in this. We thought we had made some impression on the Minister, and the National Farmers' Union and the two workers' unions were also hopeful. However, on 3rd August the Minister. made this order that we are discussing now. It perpetuates the unsatisfactory arrangement by which the farmer must apply for these allowances and distribute them to his men, or a local officer of the men's trade union may procure the food in bulk and distribute it. By this order not only does the Minister perpetuate what we consider to be an unsatisfactory system, but he also takes powers to enforce it with most extraordinary penalties. If the farmer fails to meet this obligation, then he may be liable to a fine of £500 or to two years' imprisonment, or both. That may be a salutary warning to any laggard farmers who fail to do their duty; but when we look at this order we find the most extraordinarily fatuous provision in it which really must bring the law into disrepute if such penalties as I have mentioned are ever enforced.
Mr. Speaker: I cannot find any penalties in this order.
Mr. Hurd: I think it is the regulations which lay down these penalties but I was not going to pursue that point. What I wish to draw attention to is Section I, which lays down that if a farmer takes on even casual labour at harvest time or, it may be, at the fruit picking time, or the potato lifting time, or the sugar beet lifting time, he must give 24 hours' prior notice to the Food Office, and not only

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make out the form but deliver it. What a factitious impractical arrangement to make. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I will tell hon. Gentlemen why. At the moment, we are busy potato lifting. I am personally only too delighted if two extra chaps come along and say, "Look here, we can give you a hand." Under this order, I must say that I cannot take them on today or tomorrow, but I can on Saturday, after I have chased to the Food Office and got this form and completed it, but otherwise I shall be liable to very serious penalties. What a crazy way of administering what could be quite a simple matter.
We have had six weeks' experience of the working of this order, and I think that we should ask ourselves: Is it ensuring that farm workers are getting more sustaining food for their snacks, which they have to take out into the fields at these busy times? There were a good many Questions on the Order Paper on Monday, which, unfortunately, the Minister of Food did not have an opportunity of answering because his time ran out, and so they received only written answers. So dissatisfied are the farmers and the farmer workers that the three unions—the Farmers' Union and the two workers' unions—sent a deputation to the Ministry of Food on 1st September. They were unanimous in pressing for these extra rations to be issued direct to the men, and also in pointing out that in many agricultural districts the present supplies of points goods were inadequate to supply anything reasonably sustaining to put into sandwiches. I know that I must not pursue that point, but I would like to say that undoubtedly the shortage of points for allocation to farmers has been made worse by the operation of this order, by necessitating that these allowances should be drawn in bulk by the farmer. If the Minister doubts that, let one of the clever men in her Ministry go to a village in Berkshire and see how this arrangement operates.
The farmer has, say, to draw these extra-seasonal rations for 16 men. He takes the S.A. 1 forms to his grocer, the man with whom he is registered for rationed goods. The grocer is placed in a great difficulty, because if he lets the farmer have a distribution for his men of all the points goods he wants on the 16 S.A. 1 forms, he will have nothing left
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for his regular registered customers. Only this afternoon, we were told again that points goods are now allocated to grocers on the basis of their registrations for rationed goods. Would it not be much better if these extra points were given to the men direct and the demand spread? I am pretty certain that the farm workers' wives would get full value for them. They do not today, when they are all bulked and put in through one village shop. It is quite impossible for the grocer to satisfy that demand for a good sustaining type of points goods without robbing his other customers.
These considerations were put to officials of the Ministry of Food on 1st September by this joint deputation, and they receive the smooth, half-promising reply which one would expect from a Department presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Food, but, nevertheless, the deputation were not satisfied. They asked to see the Minister himself. Then the T.U.C. was brought into the picture. That happened because the National Union of Agricultural Workers ventured to raise this matter at the Margate Conference. We all know that the relations between the T.U.C. and the Minister are pretty close, but until this episode, I had no idea that they were as close as they are, because what happened was that immediately the Minister of Food sent one of his officials to the Margate Conference, and it was arranged that the spokesmen of the National Union of Agricultural Workers should get up on the rostrum and recant.
The farm workers, he said, were glad to report that arrangements had been made to deal with their difficulty, and they were grateful to the T.U.C. for its efforts on their behalf. Well, the T.U.C. and the Minister may have squared this up to their satisfaction, but as the representative of several thousand farm workers I am not satisfied; I am not satisfied that they are getting the sustaining food to which they are entitled. Indeed, at the week-end I talked to a farm worker's wife who came to see me because for the last ten days, while her husband and son were finishing up the harvest, she has not been able to put into their sandwiches anything better than a spread of margarine and a little jam or beetroot.
It is, in these circumstances, deplorable that the Minister has refused to receive

1019
a deputation from the employers' and the workers' unions to get this matter squared up more satisfactorily. Indeed, the T.U.C. has, I understand, forbidden the farm workers' unions to carry the matter any further with the Minister; and, of course, the T.U.C. is master. Fortunately, we in this House do not have to get the consent of the T.U.C. before we raise matters of importance to our constituents and the community as a whole. I conclude by putting this question to the Minister. Having made this order—which is window-dressing anyway, and only dummy window-dressing at that—what is he doing to ensure that these modest allowances of food are given some substance? I am sure that all of us in this House recognise that the farm-workers of this country are doing a first-rate job; they are doing their duty. It is now our duty to see that they get a square deal in this matter of food rations.
10.12 p.m.
Mr. Baker White: I beg to second the Motion.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) has made clear, there are several things wrong with this order when an attempt is made to put it into practice. No one would complain about making it a serious offence for a farmer to fail to apply, in the words of the order, for the necessary authority to purchase harvest rations for his employees if that were the best or the only way of doing it. But it is not the best way. It is the wrong way of doing it. The order makes what could be a perfectly simple process into a highly complicated one. At first sight the order simply compels a farmer employing harvest labour to make application for yet another form. Supposedly this is intended to help farm workers, but in practice the order discriminates against them. It establishes a principle which is repugnant to both farmers and farm workers. Farm workers and their wives want to draw their own rations in the same way as the miners' wives draw their rations. This order says they must not, and that, in my submission is discrimination.
In parts of my constituency farmers' wives, farm workers' wives and miners' wives all use the same village shops. The
1020
miners' wives can draw their extra rations over the counter, but the farm workers' wives are not allowed to do so. On 31st May the Parliamentary Secretary, in defending the refusal of the Minister to allow farm workers to draw their extra rations direct—in other words, defending the principle now embodied in this order—said:
"Many people who would be shopping with the farm worker's wife … would feel aggrieved if she had extra rations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May, 1948; Vol. 451, c. 620.]
Who would feel aggrieved? The miner's wife. Certainly not. Would the other dwellers in the country feel aggrieved? Certainly not. They are fully aware of what the farm workers are doing to save the people of this country from hunger. They do not grudge the farm worker his little extra. If they do not feel aggrieved, if the miners' wives draw the rations, why should they feel aggrieved when it is a farm worker's wife?
I understand that it would be out of Order to discuss within the terms of this Prayer the quality of the goods mentioned in it; to discuss, for example, the relative value of tinned steak and pilchards as a harvest ration as against tinned grapes and diced beetroot, or the existence or non-existence of the suitable goods mentioned in this order to meet the four million odd points per week issued to the farmers under this order. I must therefore limit myself to saying that on Monday the Minister said that harvesting points have never carried an entitlement to particular varieties of food. But this order, under the threat of heavy penalties, places upon the farmer the statutory obligation of applying for a special authority to purchase for his workers certain rations, including those points goods. Difficulties have arisen under this operation. The Ministry claims in a letter, to which my hon. Friend has referred, that in practically every case these difficulties have been cleared up satisfactorily. If I were not out of Order I could quote a whole bunch of cases showing that nothing of the kind has happened. I could quote a farm bailiff walking round the country with 6,000 points to spend and the grocer having nothing to offer him except tinned pineapple. I do not call that satisfactory. [An HON. MEMBER: "Go to Woolworths."]

1021
I asked two big farmers what they thought of this order. One described it as an intolerable burden of paper work, the other described it as idiotic and unworkable. My hon. Friend has referred to correspondence and steps taken by the Ministry of Food to compel the public recantation by the farm workers' union at the T.U.C. at Margate. Well, the feeling may have been quelled in the vicinity of "Dreamland" but it has not been quelled in the villages and fields of this country. Men and women of Britain's countryside are slow to anger, but they are angry today. I started my working life 30 years ago as an agricultural labourer. Except for the war years, I have been continually in contact with the countryside, and I can tell the House that they are angry. They are angry because they think they have been diddled by the Ministry of Food. It is a matter of more than passing interest that in the same week as this swallowing of words, this recantation, took place at Margate in the county of Kent, the Kent County Branch of the National Union of Agricultural Workers passed a resolution protesting against the principles embodied in this order.
This order will not work. It will be the cause of endless trouble and irritation. There is a simple cure. It is to withdraw it and issue another allowing the farm workers and their wives to do what the mine workers and their wives do, draw their own rations. The Minister of Food often reminds me of Marie Antoinette—I do not apply that description to the hon. Lady. When the people had no bread she said, "Let them eat cake."
Dr. Morgan: She never said it. It is an historical error.
Mr. Baker White: The Minister of Food says, "When you tire of mousetrap cheese, bread and jam, and beetroot sandwiches, you can eat the paper points for which I have issued no goods "—and, I suppose, this order as well. "But" says the Minister, "the one thing the farm workers must not do is to buy their own harvest rations."
10.20 p.m.
Mr. Gooch: I am very surprised that hon. Members opposite should press for the annulment of this order, because the order in itself in
1022
my opinion represents another step in enabling the farm workers of this country to get the rations to which they are entitled. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Baker White) referred to the fact that a branch of the union in Kent recently passed a resolution protesting against the working of this order. I suggest he is entirely mistaken. Only a few days ago I addressed at least four meetings of agricultural workers in his division and at each meeting there was an expression of gratitude to the Minister for issuing this order, although I admit they asked the Minister to go a little further.
I share the opinion expressed on the opposite side of the House that the best solution of this problem of extra rations for farm workers would be to allow the farm worker's wife to draw the rations direct. [HON. MEMBERS; "Hear, hear."] I am repeating what I have been saying for months past; it is not a recent conversion on my part, and the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary have heard me say this time after time.
I wish to take hon. Members back a little into the past in order to appreciate the stage we have reached. When first rationing was introduced, agricultural employers began to give up the practice of supplying their workers with food and drink. As hon. Members representing rural districts know, it had been the custom in many parts of the country for employers to send out food and drink to employees on certain jobs in the fields. The withdrawal of these privileges was a hardship too great to be borne by the farm workers. The National Union of Agricultural Workers made representation to the Ministry and also to the Trade Union Congress and it was agreed that a supplementary allowance scheme should be drawn up to cover the operations in which the men were engaged.
It was also agreed that the responsibility for obtaining these extra foods should rest, where it had always rested, on the employers and their representatives. The Ministry said that the farmers were the only people who would know the kind of crops to be harvested and the number of people required and the number involved. Therefore, a simple form was drawn up, which the employers could obtain from their nearest

1023
food office and, when this was completed, permits would be issued to enable the employers to obtain supplementary allowances. Good employers went to a good deal of inconvenience to obtain those permits and to get the extra food, but some employers would not do so. I pay my tribute to those employers who faced their obligations in this respect. They have done well. This order is concerned with the non-co-operators.
These are the people whom the order will bring in—those men who would not apply for the extra rations for their men, because it was either a matter of taking too much trouble or they were too busy or for some other reason, or they refused to apply. The Ministry agreed' that in those cases district organisers of the National Union of Agricultural Workers should be allowed to nominate a responsible worker on each farm concerned, who would draw the permits and obtain the rations, but even then the employer was required to certify the number of workers and the number of days which the jobs would take to complete. Thus, in fact, the scheme was a failure. In other cases, particularly on big jobs, the worker who was willing to accept responsibility found it difficult to put down the money for the goods he had to draw for his fellow workers.
During 1947 there were many complaints and the Minister decided that a working party should be set up to look into the difficulty and, if possible, suggest other ways in which the scheme could be made to function- satisfactorily. When the working party met, however, being practical men and looking at the problem only from the standpoint of agriculturists, they suggested to the Minister that the easiest and best way of dealing with this matter was to make supplementary allowances available to every farm worker on the domestic ration books. When the Minister of Food and the Trades Union Congress looked at this proposal they realised that the recommendation must be considered in relation to other industries and both the Ministry and the Trades Union Congress felt at the time that it would be impossible to agree to the suggestion without causing widespread dissatisfaction among other workers and perhaps bringing about the collapse of the present rationing scheme.
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The working party were therefore asked to confine themselves to the present system and how to make it work more smoothly. They recommended, in view of their limited terms of reference, that conferences should be held of representatives of farmers and organised farm workers in every county and that representatives of the organisations should be appointed to deal with local problems as and when they arose. The farm workers, however, still felt they were not likely to get all that could be got out of the present scheme and the Ministry's own figures appeared to confirm their views. They confirmed the strong opinion which was held that there were many workers who did not receive the supplementary allowances to which they were entitled.
Many farmers persistentry refused to go to the trouble to certify entitlement even though they were released of all other obligations in securing the allowances. Then further discussions took place. The Minister finally decided he would issue the order which hon. Members opposite are asking the House to annul. In connection with the Motion which is now before the House I know that the National Farmers' Union have said they will do all they can to get this order annulled. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I suggest to hon. Members opposite who are at the present time setting out to do the bidding of the National Farmers' Union that in doing that they are running a grave risk of doing a great disservice to the farm workers of this country, for whose vote they will be appealing at the next Election.
Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Will the hon. Member say when and in what circumstances the National Farmers' Union made a statement of that sort?
Mr. Gooch: I am assuming something which I believe in my own mind to be correct. I am suggesting that in moving to annul this order, hon. Members are acting as the tools of the National Farmers' Union.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. David Renton: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for a hon. Member to impute that many other Members are acting as tools of an outside body?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member gave his own view. He is perfectly in Order

1025
in saying what he did. It is often said on both sides of the House.
Mr. Gooch: May I add that this order imposes no great hardship, especially when it is borne in mind that employers in other industries have had to provide canteens.
Mr. Wingfield Digby: Is it in Order for the hon. Member to read his speech?
Mr. Speaker: Of course, I dislike the reading of speeches. I hope the hon. Member is only using the papers as rather extensive notes.
Mr. Gooch: I was saying that this imposes no hardship on employers in agriculture, because employers in other industries have been for a long time under the obligation either to set up canteens or give their men canteen allowances. Farmers have been getting away with it very easily indeed. I want to add a word on the general points that have been mentioned by hon. Members opposite. We have to get more food into the villages. I know that the corn harvest is of extreme importance, but there is another harvest of almost equal importance—that is the one upon which we are now entering, the potato and sugar beet harvest. I read the reply given the other day in the House by the Minister of Food in regard to this shortage of points. I regret the position that was created at that time, but I am given to understand that the Minister has sought to put this matter right and that in the days that lie ahead, difficult and hard days for thousands of farm workers, there will be a little more points food available for them. I am going to suggest that the real trouble is that too many restaurants are being opened at the present time in the cities and towns.
Mr. Speaker: So far as this order is concerned, the hon. Member is not in Order. It is made quite clear by the note on the back that the quantity and quality of the supply of food is outside the scope of this order.
Mr. Gooch: May I add that I am delighted to know that we are going to have more fish and chip shops. I hope that many of the licences to be issued will be in respect of rural areas. As a last word, may I again express my gratitude to the Minister of Food for
1026
issuing this order. He has played the game by the farm workers in this respect. Hon. Members opposite claim to speak for a few of the farm workers of this country. I thank the Minister on behalf of 200,000 farm workers and say quite definitely that they are very grateful to the Minister for the action he has taken. In asking for this order to be annulled, hon. Members opposite are asking the Minister to continue to deprive many farm workers of additional food and they must not be surprised if at the next Election they find themselves deprived of many thousands of farm workers' votes.
10.34 p.m.
Mr. Vane: At one moment while the hon. Member was speaking I thought I agreed with as much of what he said as I admired his carnation, but as his speech proceeded I realised that he was just saying his usual piece. I thought his accusation that those of us on this side who might speak would be acting as tools of the National Farmers' Union was an insulting remark. Perhaps he himself is so used to speaking as a tool of an outside body that he can be excused for supposing that anybody else who speaks in the same Debate is receiving some sort of assistance from outside.
I am supporting this Motion and opposing this order because I do not consider that it is any answer to the difficulty which still arises in some cases, where farm workers may have difficulty in obtaining these extra rations. The present system of course is absolutely wrong, and the hon. Member who has just spoken has told the hon. Lady the answer, I believe he has done so time and time again. We have told her the answer, too, which is, to let the families of the men concerned draw these rations direct. That would simplify the whole problem. Nor do I believe this would lead to jealousy in any feminine breast—among the wives of miners or anyone else. The problem would be solved. Unfortunately, the hon. Lady belongs to a Party which believes that when any difficulty arises a clamp of some sort must be brought down and closed as tightly as possible, and that immense penalties must be imposed upon anyone who by chance commits a breach of the regulations. There is something typically Socialist in this approach to a simple everyday problem.

1027
But things are not quite so easy as has been suggested when someone is supposed to be entitled to a little extra rations. The hon. Lady will have received a letter from me a day or two ago about the case of one or two of my employees. I went to the local food office for information, but they could not tell me the answer. Therefore, the only thing to do was to ask the hon. Lady. I only cite that as an example. There are probably hundreds of employees in agriculture who not only cannot themselves understand the regulations but cannot get an answer to their questions from the local food office. Now apparently in all cases of this type either one does not do the work or one exposes oneself to imprisonment for I do not know how many years—for the sort of term which one usually associates with a conviction for high treason. That is the sort of stupid basis on which this order now laid before the House has been written, and if it comes to a Division I hope hon. Members will defeat it.
10.38 p.m.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: I was very happy to hear the remarks of the representative of the agricultural workers' union. I need hardly bother to mention his constituency, because I believe that was the prime representation for which he was speaking tonight when he said that he thought it would be a good thing if the workers themselves drew the rations direct. If that really is his feeling about the matter, what possible excuse can he find for opposing this Prayer? Whatever history he may give about the system built up since the beginning of rationing in this country during the last war, the fact remains that it is on record that he has said that it would be better if the agricultural workers' wives drew the rations themselves. That is exactly what we are saying tonight. I can foresee the Lobby into which the hon. Member will walk. I cannot quite foresee the explanation he will give for having voted in a directly contrary sense to his expressed view. The House, I believe, takes a rather serious view of such a thing.
I am sure that the hon. Member did not willingly wish to mislead the House when he gave the history of investigations into the matter of the drawing of agricultural rations for agricultural
1028
workers. But I think that he did miss one point—that an alternative was offered during the discussions. It is one which appears to me very practical, because I represent a part of the country where the majority of the farms are very small. While it is quite easy to talk about finding a workers' representative who will be appointed by the farmer and accepted by everyone else when dealing with farms employing 10, 20 or more workers, it really does become a rather Gilbert and Sullivan affair when one thinks of the problem in terms of farmers who employ only one or two men—literally one or two.
I believe that I am right in saying that the alternative, and the practicable way of dealing with this existing order, was put forward at the time. It is that the farmer should be forced to certify that the worker was working on the particular occasion and was, therefore, entitled to additional rations and, having certified this, to hand the form to the worker's wife, who would draw the rations. Am I right or wrong? [Interruption.] I am obviously right, but I ask the hon. Lady who is going to reply to correct me if I am wrong. I believe that that practicable suggestion was put forward. What would be the procedure? The farmer would have presented to him, by the worker, the form to state that the worker was on this specific work. The form could be handed back to the worker's wife, who could get the rations. It may be said that the farmer would not complete the form, but I think the House agrees that anyone of us who defrauded a man who worked for him of additional rations is not a good chap at all. The farmer would have to certify on the form. We want to see that a practicable system is introduced in a fair and proper way and that is why we pray against this order.
I do ask the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary to give us the reason, when she comes to reply, why this bad method was chosen and embodied in this order against the far more practicable idea suggested, and to which the hon. Member who spoke on behalf of the agricultural workers did not refer. When we are thinking of all these additional rations for agricultural workers, for heaven's sake do not let us think only in terms of the large farmers. The problem, I do assure

1029
the House, is as acute, if not more so, on the small farms, and those hon. Members on both sides of the House who know the small farms can endorse what I am saying. I would say that the problem of additional rations is much more acute in the small areas, because, where one has the larger farms, one has the corollary of the larger villages. In that part of Somerset from which I come there are mostly small villages, with one small store, and when the farmer sends to the small village store long lists of people and long lists of additional rations, the whole points ration of the district is absorbed in that way because no additional system of supplying extra points food is available to these small shops. I do hope that, even at this late stage, more commonsense will be applied; that we shall have a more commonsense solution for this problem of the finest industry in the country—the industry of agriculture.
10.44 p.m.
Mr. Joynson-Hicks: I should like to say, before my few remarks, in reply to the taunt or innuendo thrown at us by the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Gooch) that I am not a tool of the National Farmers' Union; that I have had no communication with the headquarters of that body on this subject, nor, so far as I am aware, have I read any publication written by them on this subject, nor do I have any personal knowledge of their views upon it. I have, however, taken the trouble to put myself in communication with the county branch of the National Farmers' Union, which I represent, and I shall be referring to that again presently, and, in addition to that, I have taken the trouble to inform myself substantially of the views of a great number of agricultural workers and people engaged in the agricultural industry in my constituency; which are completely contrary to the views of the hon. Member for North Norfolk, with the sole exception of the one point—on which we are in agreement—that they do wish that the extension of rationing should be to the workers or their wives direct.
I will ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture for his views about this order. I have very little doubt, if he does inform the House at all
1030
of the views of his Ministry, he will say that his Ministry was consulted before the order was issued. I cannot believe that the Minister of Agriculture is in favour of an order of this sort made in connection with an industry to which he has such a responsibility. The order proves that the less the Ministry of Food has to do with the agricultural industry the better for the agricultural industry. It is a thoroughly bad order and in my submission, and I say it with all seriousness and deliberation, it is a contemptuous and gratuitous insult to the farmers.
We have, as has been stated already in the House, been pressing for a long time for additional food for farm workers—and there I would acknowledge the assistance we have received from the hon. Member for North Norfolk, although his efforts have been little more successful than our own. Instead of that, what do we get? We get held out to us by this order the hope of the agricultural workers that they will get additional points. That hope has been unfulfilled and owing to the machinery by which the order works, and through which it is operated, the failure is not brought home to the agricultural worker as being failure on the part of the Ministry of Food, but as failure on the part of the farmer who has to make the initial application, and the result of this order is to cause ill-feeling and disruption between the farmer and the farm worker.
I consider that it is one of the most disgraceful practices that any Ministry has introduced into any industry at all, a deliberate attempt to drive a wedge between employers and employed. The hon. Lady may smile at it. She may not realise the effect of her action. I think that is highly probable, for she knows very little about the farm industry at all. The form of order is not appropriate to the industry at all. It may possibly be appropriate to some industrial systems which we are not discussing tonight. It may be that it is a popular slogan—a slogan which says in effect "Soak the Bosses"; but we are not accustomed to that sort of thing in the agricultural industry, and had it been a Ministry of Agriculture order I am certain that no such framework would have been advised for the industry at all.
What is the practical result of that? The Ministry of Agriculture calls for a special effort from the farmers to increase production in the present emer-

1031
gency. The Ministry of Food promptly produces an order which says that, in circumstances which it is impossible for the farmer to fulfil, he renders himself liable to serious penalties, namely, two years' imprisonment and a fine of £500. Is that the way you will encourage farmers to get the maximum production off their farms? I wonder if the hon. Lady realises what it would mean to implement this order in the ordinary case of an ordinary farm: it would mean at least that the farmer would be required to make 100 applications separately or severally during the course of a year— and that is on an ordinary small farm. Suppose, to give an example that will be of interest to hon. Members who are not familiar with the agricultural industry, a farmer is engaged in fruitpicking, which specifically comes under this order. He calls for additional labour for that purpose and in practice the wife and the children and all the casual labour which can be spared during the summer season goes out into the fruit fields and picks the fruit. That labour in now entitled to the benefits of this order and the "stated person," the farmer to whom this order applies and who employs these people, is not entitled to set them to work until 24 hours before doing so he has made application to the local food office.
When one multiplies that week by week, with changing workers for fruit picking and all the other harvesting operations to which this order refers as well—hoeing and singling of root crops, lambing and sheep-shearing, it is easy to see that in the course of 20 weeks a farmer may have to make out over 100 applications and if he fails to make any one of those applications, he is liable to two years' imprisonment and a fine of £500. What on earth the total liability in fines would be at the end of a year I do not know, I leave it to the hon. Lady.
The thing is simply unworkable; and for what is it all intended? What is it intended to give the farm worker as a result of this order?—the right to make an application for non-existent food? What good is it to him? Do we really think that farmers, who are probably the hardest-worked and the most busy people at the present time throughout the whole of the country, have the time for filling up all these forms of application for the
1032
benefit of their workers? The hon. Lady will no doubt say, as has been said on a number of occasions, that the scheme has produced very few complaints. I think that Members who represent rural constituencies have received quite a number of complaints and that is confirmed not only by the farm workers, but by the farmers themselves who have had to do the work for them. I have received a letter from the county secretary of our branch of the National Farmers' Union and he tells me to some slight extent the immediate history of this order.
The hon. Member for North Norfolk went far back into the history of the order, but I simply want to tell the House about this one point. Exactly a fortnight before this order came into operation there was a conference of South-Eastern Regional Food Officers and others in order to work out the practical side of the scheme. It was realised, my correspondent says, that a great many difficulties would have to be overcome, but by the goodwill of the farmers' representatives themselves it was felt that those difficulties would be overcome.
My correspondent says:
"Unfortunately, however, within a fortnight of this Conference when so much promise had been shown, our Members started to find tremendous difficulties as regards points goods for the harvest rations for their workers. These difficulties have persisted until now and, from the complaints we are getting, it would seem that the conditions have improved little, if any, since then."
Reference is next made to the point raised by the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd)—the attempt of the National Farmers' Union to see the Minister himself. They asked that a deputation might be received following the unsatisfactory interview they had had with the Department. So far, however, despite the pressure which has been brought to try to interview the Minister, he has declined to see them upon this matter. Surely, it is most incredible, that when a Minister has made an order which puts the whole of an industry into Chancery and renders people liable to penalties, a liability which they cannot avoid incurring, he still refuses to discuss the matter with them. Is this the democracy to which we are coming under this Socialist Government?
Finally, the situation is summed up by the county secretary who writes:

1033
"The position, therefore, is that the farmer with one or two men can usually get something from his regular retailer but the farmers or their managers on larger farms find it practically impossible to get points goods which can be used to supplement food which the workers can take to the field."
As an example, he quotes a named farmer in my constituency who
".. reported to me only yesterday that the only points goods he could get from his regular retailers for his men were tins of spaghetti."
Mr. Shurmer: That is very nice on toast.
Mr. Joynson-Hicks: That interjection is absolutely typical of the attitude of the Ministry of Food in dealing with the agricultural industry. It displays a complete and utter ignorance of the circumstances with which we are trying to deal. How on earth does the hon. Lady believe that a farm labourer can be nourished and can enjoy a mid-day packed meal, after working five hours in the fields and probably cycling three or four miles to get there, on a sandwich filled with cold spaghetti? I should like to see the hon. Lady herself at the end of a week's harvesting on rations such as that. If I may be allowed one reference which has a double meaning, I would say that this order is entirely pointless. I repeat that it is contemptuous of the farmers. It is obviously unworkable and it is calculated to promote ill-feeling throughout the industry. Of that there is not the slightest doubt whatever. It is disruptive of the effort which the farmers are trying to make to produce more food. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Norfolk may say, "No." That only shows that he is not in touch with the farming community, as he should be. If, owing to the brief with which he has been supplied tonight, he will not vote with us in the Lobby, nevertheless, I hope that all other hon. Members opposite representing agricultural constituencies will do so.
11.0 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summer-skill): During the three years which I have served at the Ministry of Food, I have met many of the hon. Members opposite who have spoken tonight. I have learned that they are farmers, and I have listened to them in the House and have formed the opinion on certain occasions that they were concerned with
1034
the welfare of their workers. Tonight, with a sense of great surprise, I listened to the same hon. Gentlemen identifying themselves with the bad farmers of the country, bad farmers who show little concern for the welfare of their workers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap."] Tonight they have deliberately evaded the real issue. They have tried to confuse the issue by talking on matters which Mr. Speaker has already said are out of Order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Mr. Speaker ruled that a speech on the quality and quantity of food was out of Order tonight.
Brigadier Thorp: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, can you tell me when either you or Mr. Speaker gave that ruling?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Major Milner): Certain matters are clearly out of Order. Matters to which reference has been made have not, so far as I know, been out of Order.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Dr. Summerskill: Certainly not. My colleagues on this Bench who have been listening very carefully, agree that I am quite right. Mr. Speaker got up after consulting the order and said there was nothing in the order dealing with the quantity or quality of food, and I have observed that every hon. Member opposite has been out of Order in so far as not one hon. Member opposite has refrained from discussing differential rations. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) got up and asked me a question on differential rationing which was quite out of Order. Therefore, in case there are hon. Members who are not aware of the principle which is embodied in the order—
Mr. Orr-Ewing: Since the hon. Lady has mentioned me I wish to state that she has completely distorted what I said. I never made any mention of differential rations, and I ask her to withdraw.
Dr. Summerskill: Perhaps the hon. Member does not know that the subject he mentioned is technically known as differential rationing.
I want again to remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that if this Prayer were accepted by the House tonight, if

1035
would mean that the protection afforded to agricultural workers in this country, who have been denied these seasonal allowances m the past by the bad minority of farmers—this protection which my Department has sought to give them—will be removed. I am very surprised that the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite who are concerned with the Party machine, have allowed their supporters at the back to come here and make speeches which are against the interests of the agricultural workers of this country.
Mr. Renton: Will the hon. Lady allow me?
Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Lady has allowed enough tonight. The peroration of the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) was striking. "We demand far more sustaining food," he says. "The workers are doing their duty; let us do our duty." Yet he moves a Prayer to annul an order which will do justice—justice which has been denied to some agricultural workers. He has the effrontery to ask for more sustaining food, yet if this annulment of the order were accepted tonight he would be denying the agricultural worker his entitlement.
Then again, hon. Members have raised the question of penalties. Surely they must know that my Department does not prescribe penalties. These penalties were prescribed in the Defence Regulations. Hon. Members must know enough about the law to know that the maximum penalty is not always the penalty upon which the court decides.
Mr. R. S. Hudson: As the hon. Lady is so keen on referring to Rulings given by Mr. Speaker while he was in the Chair, may I remind her that Mr. Speaker ruled when my hon. Friend was moving this Motion, that any reference to penalties was out of Order, because they were not included in the order?
Dr. Summerskill: I will accept that, but if I did not mention all the things that have been mentioned tonight which were out of Order, there would be no reply to the hon. Member who moved the Prayer. I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman took the Defence Regulation to Mr. Speaker to make sure that it was out of Order.
Mr. Hudson: I went to Mr. Speaker to show him that in my humble opinion he was wrong, but at all events he did rule that it was out of Order.
Dr. Summerskill: The right hon. Gentleman is not being friendly to his own back benchers. If I were to follow his advice I would not answer any question. I would make a short speech on this order and leave the matter there. But I would ask that I should be allowed to answer on the point of penalties, because on the face of it it appears that hon. Members charge my Ministry with prescribing penalties that are harsh and ruthless. We had nothing to do with fixing them. They are in the Defence Regulations. I believe the maximum penalty for larceny is 14 years, but a pick-pocket gets something like 14 days so that hon. Members need not be too worried. If they decide not to observe this order perhaps the penalty will not be the maximum prescribed by the Defence Regulations.
But I do want to refer to this order [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Certainly, I like to set hon. Members an example. In 1941 my Ministry, in consultation with the Ministry of Agriculture, the National Farmers' Union, and the T.U.C. decided to make these seasonal allowances. They can be obtained for harvesting, hay-making, hoeing and singling of root crops, lambing, sheep-shearing, and threshing. The hon. Member from Chichester (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) described the woes of the farmer. The poor man had to fill in hundreds of forms. But these are the only operations which entitle a farmer to apply for seasonal allowances. I find it difficult to understand why he should be called on to fill in hundreds of forms.
I will remind the House of what the procedure is. Hon. Members have given a picture of this poor, harassed man who is incapable of grappling with the difficulties with which the Ministry of Food has presented him. All he has to do is to make a separate application for each of these processes. The farmer need not make the application, his nominee can do so. [An HON. MEMBER; "His wife.] Certainly, if you like. A farmer's wife is not a completely helpless woman. Hon. Gentlemen opposite must not be so nineteenth-century about women. I think most of them know that women

1037
can write letters. The farmer, or his wife, or a representative of the agricultural workers, or any other reputable person acting on their behalf, can do this. The local doctor could do it. [HON. MEMBERS: "He has enough to do already."] I certainly know that. The local vicar could do it. It is not only the farmer who has to make this application. The application can be made by any of these people. They can go to the Food Office. The only thing the farmer has to do is to sign the application. If he cannot sign it, he can make his mark. Then, any of these people can collect the rations and distribute them. Nobody can say here that the farmer is not capable of appending his signature to an application for seasonal rations.
I know that it is out of Order to mention differential rationing, but it has been mentioned by every hon. Member, and I want only to say—I have said it before—that we have resisted differential rationing because we have to allocate the food of this country in the light of the demands of all groups of workers. We have had an Adjournment Debate on this question, and I think that on that occasion I made a fairly long answer to it.
I think it was the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane) who said that the procedure was so complicated that it was very difficult for these people to find the right answer to every question, and that in order to answer one of them he had had to come to me. I must say that that is a gross exaggeration. We have arranged that the farm workers' representatives, the Ministry officials and the representatives of the National Farmers Union can meet at both the divisional and local office levels and that any question there will be answered by an official whom we ask to attend. Furthermore, the whole procedure has been simplified. A pamphlet has been agreed upon and will be distributed widely in which even the simplest question will be answered. Therefore, we have tried as far as possible to meet the difficulties, not only of the farmers, but of the farm workers.
I want now to come to the reason why we had to make this order. Complaints came to us concerning a certain minority of the farmers. Only a minority. I am glad to say that the majority of the farmers of this country recognise their obligations. I am surprised to find that
1038
no hon. Member opposite has mentioned the fact that this order applies only to England and Wales. I wonder that no Scots farmer has asked why it does not apply to Scotland. I want to pay tribute to Scotland. All Scots farmers are applying for their workers' seasonal allowances. They find no difficulty about it, and the Scots find that, far from causing disharmony between farmers and farm workers—as the hon. Member for Chichester mentioned—it cements the bonds which bind the farmers and farm workers together. It does not apply to Northern Ireland for the same reason. We found not one complaint came from a farm worker in Northern Ireland. Therefore, we decided it should apply only to this country.
I think the hon. Member for Chichester told the House of all the complaints he had received from farm workers, and other hon. Members opposite have told the House that they are concerned with the interests of the farm workers. Surely, however, he will agree with me that the hon. Member for South-Western Norfolk (Mr. Dye)—I am sorry he is not here tonight—who is a farmer himself and represents a farming constituency, also has experience that equals that of the hon. Members opposite. I observe that in the Debate on the Address he made a contribution. I hope hon. Members will realise that that was certainly not prompted by me or my Department. It was not until I read HANSARD that I realised he had tackled this question. On Wednesday, 15th September, the hon. Member said:
"Those farmers who took advantage of those arrangements to secure extra rations for their workers at the beginning of the harvest were able to get the extra rations for their men. The grumbles arose from those who after the harvest had been well under way suddenly awoke to the fact that someone ought to have some extra rations and then began to get necessary permits and, after dilly-dallying about for some time, make application to shopkeepers to honour those extra permits. From my Division, which is one of the largest agricultural divisions in the Eastern counties, I have only had one letter of complaint about short rations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 15th September, 1948; Vol. 456, c. 199.]
Major Legge-Bourke: The hon. Lady has quoted the Member for Norfolk, South-Western (Mr. Dye), whose constituency adjoins mine, May I, in con-

1039
tradiction to him, quote from a letter the hon. Lady sent to me on 21st September. She said then:
"It is quite true that during recent months supplies of points food have been barely sufficient to honour points allowances …"
Mr. Speaker: I have ruled that supplies are out of Order. The quantity of supplies has nothing to do with this order.
Major Legge-Bourke: Surely the hon. Lady was implying that there was plenty.
Dr. Summerskill: I realise that these questions which have been raised on the other side are out of Order and it would be quite improper for me to answer them. I will therefore confine myself to the principle embodied in the order. In view of the fact that I have already told the House that this order was made in the interests of agricultural workers and in order to compel the bad farmers to do their duty, I ask the House to reject the Prayer.
11.18 p.m.
Mr. R. S. Hudson: In the course of the very small part of her speech devoted to defending this order, the hon. Lady said this order was made in the interests of the agricultural workers. The hon. Lady may think it is made in the interests of agricultural workers and her Department may think that it is made in the interests of agricultural workers, but I venture to assert that if agricultural workers and, above all, their wives, were consulted, they would agree with what the hon. Member for one of the Norfolk Divisions said, that the best solution of all would be to allow the farm workers' wives to draw the supplementary rations direct. That is the fundamental difference between us. The hon. Lady made no attempt in the course of her speech to justify denying to the agricultural workers and their wives the elementary right to go and shop for themselves in the shops of their choice.
Dr. Summerskill: I understand that that is quite out of Order.
Mr. Hudson: On the contrary, if I may correct the hon. Lady, subject to Mr. Speaker's Ruling, that is precisely in Order.
1040
The choice lies between two alternative methods. In this order the Government are selecting one method, the method of saying that farmers should be compelled to collect these rations and distribute them to the workers, under a heavy penalty. I shall have a word to say about the ludicrous results that ensue and the quite unnecessary difficulties it imposes on farmers. The alternative, which we believe to be the right method, is to say that the farm workers' wives should be given a right to these points direct and allowed to go into the shops and buy what they like with these points. That is the fundamental difference between us on this matter. I repeat: if it was put to a plebiscite of farm workers and their wives, there is not a shadow of doubt on the part of any reasonable being here which way they would vote. They would vote in favour of being allowed to draw these rations themselves.
The result of what the Government are doing under this order is definitely to discriminate against a particular class of the community, namely, the farmers. They are compelling the farmers to do in respect of their workers—and I am sure that the hon. Lady will agree with me—what no other employer in the country is compelled to do in respect of his workers. They are compelling farmers to do what no firm in this country running an industrial canteen for, say, 100 workers, is compelled to do; that is, to say, 24 hours in advance, that on the following day there would be 101 workers using the canteen. One only has to put it that way to see the ridiculousness of the position. The unfortunate farmer is compelled to say 24 hours in advance the exact number of men or women, or children for that matter, he is going to employ on a certain day.
The hon. Lady said she could not understand why the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) said that the farmer might have to make 100 applications. That just shows her ignorance of the difficulties of practical farming today. Let me quote my own case.
Mr. Alpass: The right hon. Gentleman is on dangerous ground there.
Mr. Hudson: I happen to have a crop which will shortly be ready for harvesting

1041
and I require a considerable number of casual workers. I went to the local employment exchange and asked if they could provide labour for this work, which is a light job which married women can easily do. I said that I could arrange the hours of work on any particular day of the week to suit any particular woman who has a few hours to spare and is willing to help. They said that, of course, they could get a certain number of women for the work. But there is no means of my knowing from one day to another exactly who is going to come the following morning or how many will come, or whether they will come in the morning or in the afternoon. Yet under this ridiculous regulation I am compelled either to break the law or, when the women turn up, to say, "I did not know, Mrs. Jones, that you were coining today; I thought you were coming tomorrow. As I have no application in, you cannot work today." It is fantastic. The hon. Lady has not taken the trouble to read her own order, which says:
"Where any person employs, gratuitously or for reward, any worker for the carrying out of any seasonal operation on agricultural land, that person shall, not later than 24 hours prior to the commencement of each such operation, complete and deliver to a Food Executive Officer of the Ministry of Food for the area in which the Agricultural land, or part thereof, is situate an application form."
That means that for every single day in respect of every single man who happens to be employed not continuously, but perhaps with a gap, I have to send in a separate application. It will not be a case of 100 a year in my case; it will be a case of 100 a month. It is no good the hon. Lady laughing, jeering and sneering. That is the case.
Dr. Summerskill: The right hon. Gentleman knows that he has never sent in 100 applications. He knows that the conditions he is describing just do not exist.
Mr. Hudson: There is a tradition in this House that if an hon. Member makes a statement, and especially from this Box, about something which he knows, that statement is accepted. If the hon. Lady is deliberately accusing me of telling a lie, I shall ask her to withdraw. I am telling the House what is going to occur in my particular case in the months of November, December and January, if this order goes through. She will have to take
1042
it from me that that is the case. I will have to send in hundreds of applications before the end of the year. I hope now that in the light of that statement the hon. Lady will withdraw her remark.
Dr. Summerskill: I say that that is a gross exaggeration.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Hudson: I must press the hon. Lady to say whether there is any evidence to show that the statement which I have made is not right.
Dr. Summerskill: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, because he has been a Minister, and at the Ministry of Agriculture, that that Ministry discussed this matter with my Department; and he also knows that before an order of this kind is made, the farmers and farm workers' representatives are consulted and, if 24 hours—the figure which is put in—is ridiculous, as he suggests, it would never have been put into the order.
Mr. Hudson: All I can say is that I am glad the hon. Lady makes that point because my information is that the Department, so far from consulting the farmers and the farm workers on this particular matter, actually refused to meet a deputation; what is more, a deputation designed to urge that, instead of this, there should be the solution that the farm workers' wives should be allowed to draw the ration direct. What actually happened was that the Ministry refused to agree to receive a deputation from the farmers, and I was very surprised indeed to hear the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Gooch) make the statement which he did make. I admired his courage because I have it on the authority of the Ministry of Food that the T.U.C. refused to allow the National Union of Agricultural Workers to go on a deputation, but, instead, urged the adoption of this scheme which, he says, is not the best solution.
Mr. Gooch: The right hon. Gentleman knows that, even when he was Minister of Agriculture, we pressed for the food to be made directly available to the farm workers' wives. We still stand our ground on that point, despite anything which may be said about what the T.U.C. has stated.
Mr. Hudson: Yes, but what the T.U.C. says is the important matter. This is the letter from the Ministry of Food:
"… I have an explicit assurance from the T.U.C."—
here we see the connection—
"that they would not consent to any such deputation being sent by individual unions…"
It is pretty clear, on the face of it, that this question of rations for farm workers has not been decided on its merits in the real interests of the farm workers. It has been decided by the Ministry of Food and the T.U.C. on quite other grounds; and when we talk of "differential rations"—which were not mentioned until the hon. Lady referred to them—and she says that the T.U.C. objected to "differential rations", how does she reconcile the position to which we refer with the fact that miners' wives may draw additional rations? What I want to know is why farm workers' wives should not
be allowed to draw additional rations because, if it were not for the hard work of the farm workers and their wives, we should not be so well fed as we are even at present. I remind the hon. Lady that it is not the agricultural workers who practise absenteeism; who are demanding always shorter hours, and yet they are being called upon by the hon. Lady, in this one respect to do what they do not want to do. It is farm workers' wives who have deserved this ration far more than miners' wives. For that reason, we shall vote against this order because we believe that it is not in the best interests of farm workers or their wives.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley)rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes. 151: Noes, 48.

Division No. 9.]

AYES

[11.31 p.m.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Gooch, E. G.

Orbach, M.

Allen, A C. (Bosworth)

Grey, C. F.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Alpass, J. H.

Guy, W. H.

Pargiter, G. A.

Attewell, H. C

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Awbery, S. S

Hardy, E. A

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Baird, J.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Pearson, A

Balfour, A

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Peart, T. F

Barnes, Rt. Hon A. J

Hewitson, Capt. M

Perrins, W

Barstow, P. G

Hobson, C. R

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Barton, C.

Holman, P

Price, M. Philips

Bechervaise, A. E

Hey, J.

Pryde, D. J.

Blackburn, A. R.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Randall, H. E

Blenkinsop, A.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Ranger, J.

Blyton, W. R.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Boardman, H.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Rhodes, H.

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Richards, R

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E)

Robens, A

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Jenkins, R. H.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Bramall, E. A.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Royle, C

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Scollan, T.

Brown, George (Belper)

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Sharp, Granville

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Shurmer, P.

Burke, W. A.

Keenan, W.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Simmons, C. J.

Champion, A. J.

Lavers, S.

Skeffington, A. M.

Collindridge, F.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Collins, V. J.

Lewis., A. W. J. (Upton)

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Colman, Miss G. M

Logan, D. G

Snow, J. W.

Corlett, Dr. J.

Lyne, A. W.

Soskice, Rt. Hon Sir Frank

Daggar, G.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Steele, T.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

McKinley, A. S

Stokes, R. R.

Deer, G.

McLeavy, F.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Delargy, H. J

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Sylvester, G. O.

Diamond, J.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Thomas, D E. (Aberdare)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Mitchison, G. R

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Monslow, W.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Moody, A. S.

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Titterington, M. F.

Ewart, R.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Fairhurst, F.

Nally, W.

Ungoed-Thomas, L

Farthing, W. J

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Usborne, Henry

Fernyhough, E

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Gibbins, I.

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E)

Warbey, W N

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

Wise, Major F. J.

Watson, W. M

Williams, J. L (Kelvingrove)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

Weitzman, D.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Yates, V. F

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh. E.)

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES;

Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Wilkins.

NOES

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Hurd, A.

Renton, D.

Baldwin, A. E.

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Keeling, E H.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Studholme, H. G.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Teeling, William

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Vane, W. M. F.

Digby, S. W.

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Drewe, C.

Mellor, Sir J.

Williams, Gerald (Tunbridge)

Duthie, W. S.

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Nicholson, G.

York, C.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Orr-Ewing, I. L

Hollis, M. C.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Hudson., Rt. Hon R. S (Southport)

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

Major Conant and Brigadier Mackeson.

Question put,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order, dated 3rd August 1948, entitled the Food (Seasonal Allowances) Order, 1948 (S.I.. 1948. No. 1823),
a copy of which was delivered to the Votes and Proceedings Office on 3rd August, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled."
The House divided: Ayes, 47; Noes, 148.

Division No. 10.]

AYES

[11.38 p.m.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

Renton, D.

Baldwin, A. E.

Keeling, E. H.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Studholme, H. G.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Mackeson, Brig, H. R

Teeling, William

Butler, Rt. Hr. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

Conant, Maj, R. J. E.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Vane, W. M. F.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Digby, S. W.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Dower, E. L G. (Caithness)

Mellor, Sir J.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Drewe, C.

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E

York, C.

Duthie, W. S.

Nicholson, G.

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Hollis, M C.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Mr. Hurd and Mr. Baker White.

Hudson. Rt. Hon. R. S (Southport)

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

NOES

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Collins, V. J

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Colman, Miss G. M

Hobson, C. R.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Holman, P.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Daggar, G.

Hoy, J.

Alpass, J. H.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Hudson, J.H (Ealing, W.)

Attewell, H. C

Deer, G.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Awbery, S S.

Delargy, H. J

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Baird, J.

Diamond, J.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Balfour, A.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Barstow, P. C

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Jenkins, R. H.

Barton, C.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Bechervaise, A. E

Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Blackburn, A. R.

Ewart, R.

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Blenkinsop, A

Fairhurst, F

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Blyton, W R.

Farthing, W. J.

Keenan, W.

Boardman, H.

Fernyhough, E

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

Gibbins, J

Lavers, S.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Gooch, E. G.

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Bramall E. A.

Grey, C. F.

Lindgren, G. S.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Griffiths, D (Rother Valley)

Logan, D. G.

Brown, George (Belper)

Guy, W. H.

Lyne, A. W.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Hardy, E. A.

McKinlay, A. S

Champion, A. J.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

McLeavy, F.

Collindridge, F.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Mallalieu, E L. (Brigg)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Pryde, D. J.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Randall, H. E

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Mitchison, G. R

Ranger, J.

Titterington, M. F.

Monslow, W.

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Moody, A. S.

Rhodes, H.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Richards, R

Usborne, Henry

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Robens, A

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Nally, W.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Wallace. H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Royle, C.

Warbey, W. N

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Scollan, T.

Watson., W. M

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Sharp, Granville

Weitzman, D.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

Orbach, M.

Simmons, C. J.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon W

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Skeffington, A. M.

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

Palmer, A. M. F.

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Williams, J. L (Kelvingrove)

Pargiter, G. A

Snow, J W.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Steele, T.

Wills, Mrs. E. A

Pearson, A.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Wise, Major F. J

Peart, T. F

Sylvester, G. O.

Woodburn, Rt Hon. A

Perrins, W.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Yates, V. F

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Price, M. Philips

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Wilkins.

RAILWAYS (SAFETY MEASURES)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Joseph Henderson.]
11.47 p.m.
Mr. Champion: If it were not for the fact that this is a matter in which I am deeply interested I should not be trespassing on the time of the House at this late hour. I want to raise tonight the question of safety on the railways. I do so because I believe it is possible for us in this country to reach a very much higher standard than we have yet reached. In saying that, I want to pay tribute to the railways for the comparative freedom from accidents which we have here and I believe that it is safe to compare this country with most of the other countries in the world. We have here a fatality rate which is one in 250 million miles. That is a very high rate of safety, but still I am of the opinion that it is not high enough. In saying that, I would pay tribute too, to the continuous care of railway employees, which is worthy of the highest praise.
Our railwaymen have shown standards of honest work and a tradition of service which are of the highest character. I think, too, we have to recognise that there is a task falling on the Railway Executive, on the railway trade unions, and upon the older railwaymen at this time, to ensure that the tradition of honest work and care is maintained and handed on to the younger generation of railwaymen. I do not, however, believe that the standards of safety already reached are high enough. They can be improved upon if we use to the maximum the safety
devices which, at this time, are known to exist.
Railway safety is too wide a subject to deal with in all its aspects in an Adjournment speech, and therefore it is my intention to raise only the subject of train accidents and not the movement or non-movement accidents, all of which find their way into the report of the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways. There are three main tried safety devices available. The first is the automatic train control—a device which ensures that the driver shall have repeated in the cab of his engine something which will indicate to him his position in relation to certain signals, enabling him to be warned in his cab of the aspect of the signals that are being shown, and will in certain circumstances apply brakes to the engine and bring the train to a standstill.
The second well-known device is track circuiting. It is a device which enables the position of a train to be electrically repeated in signal boxes at both ends, and also it will control the block instruments in those signal boxes and the signals which permit entry into the section. This really means that if you have a train standing on a piece of track which is circuited, it is impossible for the signalman to permit another train to enter behind it.
There is the third device of locking the signals by the block instrument position. I realise that this is all rather technical, but these are part of the safety devices which could be used at this time. The last I have mentioned is a comparatively simple device which prevents a signalman pulling off a signal controlling

1049
entrance to a section if he has not got the "line clear" showing on his block instrument from the signal box in advance. The first of the three devices is to aid the driver; the other two are intended as a safeguard against signalmen's errors.
The necessity for automatic train control comes out very clearly in Sir Alan Mount's report for 1947. He gives figures for fatalitles in train accidents which might have been prevented had this been installed on all the railways. The percentages for the period 1930–37 is 39 per cent., and for the period 1938–47 it is 31 per cent. His report on five of the 12 accidents which he inquired into in 1947 shows the following results—and the 12 are the biggest accidents involving the greatest number of passengers and railway servants killed or injured.
GIDEA PARK—7 killed, 45 injured. Automatic train control would have prevented this. LAMBRIGG CROSSING-37 suffered shock and minor injuries. A collision took place on a high viaduct, and if the train had not kept alongside the track but had had the misfortune to plunge through the wall into the valley the number of deaths would have been tremendous. It was a miracle that that did not happen. Automatic train control would have prevented that accident. GOSWIK—28 people killed, 66 seriously injured, and 28 received minor injuries. Automatic train control would have prevented that. MOTSPUR PARK-4 killed, 100 suffered shock or injury. Automatic train control would have prevented that. HERNE HILL—one killed, 23 suffered shock or injury. Automatic train control would have prevented that accident. These five serious accidents which would have been averted by a well tried and tested safety device.
These are some of the figures extracted from the report, but what is missing is the number who would have been killed and injured if we had not had automatic train control established on the G.W.R. No one can guess at the figure, but there is no doubt that but for the fact that automatic train control is established on that system the numbers of accidents and deaths would have been very much higher.
What I am going to suggest to the Minister is that there is urgent necessity for an immediate programme of extension
1050
of the automatic train control to the remainder of the main lines not at present covered by that system. It was recommended by a committee which reported in 1922; and the report of that year made it quite clear that this would be a system which, if installed, would bring about a greater measure of safety on the railways. That was repeated in 1930, when a committee sat to examine this matter again, and came to the same conclusion.
Despite what I said about the comparative safety of British railways, I believe that it is disgraceful that after all this time we still have a large part of the main line system which is not covered by the automatic train control. In this connection, the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways, in his concluding paragraph, makes it quite clear that he thinks, too, that at this time we ought to have the whole of the railway system covered by automatic train control. I shall not read the whole of it. It is available to the Minister and the public. But he makes it quite clear that he thinks that the Railway Executive should embark upon a big extension of this system of control. I do hope that the Minister, in his reply, will assure the House that the cost, which is not enormous, and the materials will be made available for the purpose of installing in the rest of the railway system this automatic train control.
The next point is that of the track circuiting. No figure is given in the report of the Chief Inspecting Officer of how many of these accidents would have been prevented if there had been devices installed to prevent signalman's errors. Some indication was given in the 1930 report, but nothing in that for 1947. However, I think it fair to assume, from figures given in previous reports, that if we had the signalman's possible errors covered by safety devices the number of fatalities would have been reduced by 50 per cent. That is a big figure. The signalman's errors could be reduced as. a result of greater extension of track circuiting to the part of the system not now covered by it. It is a safeguard against signalman's errors. It is one which prevents the making of mistakes which the signalman is liable to make. It is one which, despite the heavy cost, ought to be considered by the Minister and by the Railway Executive.
There would be, at any rate, justification for the extension of this system of track circuiting to much of our main lines. It would certainly be justifiable to have it installed in the immediate vicinity of the home signal, far enough away for the home signal to ensure that any train coming to a stand at that signal would be on a track circuit signal and the train's position would be indicated both in the box at the end of the section in front of the train and at the signal box in the rear of it, would lock the block instruments and ensure that the signal controlling entry in the section at the rear of the train was kept at danger.
This is, I think, something which railway engineers ought to be looking into at this time. I believe there is necessity for very much research in this connection. I want to ask whether research is going on into all this all the time? Is it continuous? Are the railway scientists devoting their minds to these aspects of railway engineering? Are inventors encouraged in this connection or discouraged by railway engineers? I have heard of cases of a certain amount of discouragment of inventors by the railway engineers, but I am not in a position to substantiate that.
I believe that the Railway Executive at this time should be considering or rather deciding on a big expansion of the system of locking starting signals by the block position. This, to my certain knowledge, is an excellent safety device. As one who has worked in a signal box, I can testify to its value, and there happens to be one other in this Chamber now who can do the same thing. Looking through the report to the Minister for 1947, I read the details of the Doncaster disaster in which 18 were killed and 120 injured, and it seemed to me that this simple device of locking the signal by the block instrument might have prevented that disaster. As a practical signalman, I have no doubt of the practicability of this apparatus or, indeed, of its efficiency.
There are other things which should be mentioned in connection with safety devices and have been mentioned in this House more than once. There is the possibility of short-wave communcation between trainmen and signalman. I have doubts about the immediate practicability of this, but I do think research may reveal possible uses of this device. Cer-
1052
tainly I do not think we have yet reached the stage where it would be useful, but nevertheless research upon it is something which ought not to be neglected. There are, too, possibilities of great improvements in signalling methods—for instance, greater penetration of light. All these things are worthy of consideration, and I sincerely hope that the Minister and the Railway Executive will look into all of them and, what is more important, take decisions now which will cause a big extension and expansion of these safety devices on the railways.
I said I spoke as a practical signalman. I know that every driver, however careful. at some time after he has passed a signal in the dark looks back hoping he is going to get some indication that the signal he has passed is in the clear position. He is not always sure. Of course, he is not. There is always that liability of the human being to err. When this was raised in the House previously, I said that every railwayman, engaged in train movement, when he reads these reports, says to himself, "There but for the grace of God go I." Every signalman, when he reads such a report, feels that. I have never yet met, in all my experience, a signalman who did not make a mistake, who did not make a mistake which, if it had not been for the fact that he was lucky, might have involved many being killed and more injured. I hope that will not frighten people from using the railways. They must remember the figure I gave earlier. Nevertheless it is an important aspect of the question. Every signalman has made a mistake, or thought he made it, and has gone into a cold sweat, watching the rear light of the train moving away in the darkness, hoping that he will not hear a crash; and has sunk back on the locker, feeling enormously relieved, when the signal comes indicating that the train has passed through without anything untoward taking place and that, after all, he has not committed the mistake which it is always possible for the human being to make.
In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will not rely too much on human skill and care nor leave too much to the good luck which prevents some disasters, and will insist upon an expansion of the installation of safety devices. I would urge on him particularly at this time those which are not too costly in men and materials, the A.T.C.—automatic train control—and

1053
the locking signal by the lock instrument. I hope he will assure the House that the Railway Executive is going to embark on a very considerable programme of extension.
12.5 a.m.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): The hon. Member for South Derby (Mr. Champion), in raising this subject tonight, speaks with very great knowledge and experience on the subject. He has quoted a good deal from reports of the Chief Inspector of Railways, and I would like at the beginning of my remarks to make it plain that the nationalisation of transport has in no way interfered with the duties and responsibilities of that department. It will, of course, function under the British Transport Commission, and the Railway Executive, in the same way as it previously functioned in regard to the four main line railway companies. I mention that because it is desirable that the public should know that the Ministry of Transport inspectorate is as independent as it has been in the past.
I further appreciate that my hon. Friend who is an old railway-man, took the precaution of making plain the standard of safety which prevails on our British railways. Being a practical man, he quoted passenger miles. I speak as a member of the public and as a layman, and in looking at problems of this kind the average man thinks more in terms of the individual journey upon which he embarks on the railways. I would like to present in another form what I consider to be rather impressive figures which demonstrate the safety of travelling on the railways. I quite agree that 1947, in comparison with previous years, was in a sense a had year; but even in 1947, which was rather above the average, the fatalities amounted to only one out of every 18 million passenger journeys embarked upon on British Railways.
I, of course, am deeply interested in the problem of safety on the railways, on the roads, and, as far as the Merchant Navy is concerned, on the high seas. I must emphasise that while it is always desirable to press for improvements, we should keep this subject in its proper perspective. If only we could get in every form of transport the same measure of safety as that which prevails on the railways, I and other Ministers of Transport would be
1054
very much happier. For instance, if one compares the fatalities in accidents in 1947, one finds that on the railways there were 121 killed and 1,327 injured; but in road accidents in 1947, 4,881 persons were killed and 161,318 were injured.
Having brought out that comparison. I would like to deal with the specific points which my hon. Friend raised. I can assure him, without any qualification whatever, that in the British Transport Commission and the Railway Executive and certainly in my own railway inspectorate, there is no difference of opinion in principle on the need for carrying out the reforms he has indicated. When I say "reforms," it really comes down to the extension to the whole of the main line routes of this country of instruments of safeguard which have already been fairly well tested in certain directions. But it must be borne in mind that the British Transport Commission and the Railway Executive today are not faced simply with the extension of automatic train control and track-circuiting on one particular railway system. Whatever they decide now, must be decided with the fact in view that it must apply over the whole of the main line routes of this country.
There is no difference of opinion on the need to expand and extend automatic train control, but there are certain applications which require further experimentation, and a section of line is already set aside by the Railway Executive, and experiments will be made extensively on that stretch. Drivers from all the systems will be given the opportunity to express their views. I mention that because the programme of extending automatic train control to all the main lines would represent an expenditure of from £6 to £8 million and in relation to the capital invested in the railways, that is not an excessive sum.
Regarding track - circuiting, that is already going on, but the programme so far sanctioned represents a further expenditure of £5 millions. But it is not this capital expenditure which represents the difficulty today. The limiting factor is shortage of equipment of the character which represents demands on light electrical equipment manufactured in this country, and represents demands on manpower and material at present already considerably over-strained by other parts of the railway system. It is not the de-

1055
sire of the Railway Executive which is limiting the rate of progress; it is these physical factors to which I have referred, and my hon. Friend can rest assured that the railway inspectorate, the Railway Executive, and the British Transport Commission will do everything they can to extend the system of track-circuiting and automatic train control so far as, and as quickly as, the circumstances of today permit.
With regard to radar and radio transmission and research into them, the research department of the British Transport Commission are aware of the need for investigation, but I am afraid I must tell the House that I cannot hold out a great deal of hope so far as the immediate programme is concerned. Taking into
1056
account the conditions of our railways, the density of traffic, the number of lines in this country and matters of that kind, while, of course, all those new devices and developments should be thoroughly examined, I do not consider one can look to radar and radio transmission for very substantial improvement.
I conclude by assuring the hon. Member that the issue he has raised tonight is fully accepted in principle by the three sections I referred to, and so far as manpower and material will allow. These measures will be pressed forward as expeditiously and as rapidly as possible.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock

  PALESTINE POLICE FORCE
  PALESTINE POLICE FORCE
  MALAYA (ARRESTED PERSONS)
  MALAYA (ARRESTED PERSONS)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Farm Workers' Seasonal Allowances
  Farm Workers' Seasonal Allowances
  Potatoes (Surplus Stocks)
  Potatoes (Surplus Stocks)
  Sugar Refining (Costs)
  Sugar Refining (Costs)
  Grain Storage Capacity
  Grain Storage Capacity
  Blood Donors
  Blood Donors
  Illegal Slaughtering Offences
  Illegal Slaughtering Offences
  Dried Fruit (Christmas Allocation)
  Dried Fruit (Christmas Allocation)
  Rural Meal Schemes
  Rural Meal Schemes
  Inspections, Bridlington
  Inspections, Bridlington
  Inspection Officers
  Inspection Officers
  Apples (Control)
  Apples (Control)
  Commonwealth Sugar Production
  Commonwealth Sugar Production
  Burma Rice (Colonial Imports)
  Burma Rice (Colonial Imports)
  Jam and Marmalade
  Jam and Marmalade
  Milk Roundsmen (Rural Areas)
  Milk Roundsmen (Rural Areas)
  Butterscotch Exports
  Butterscotch Exports
  Old People (Meals Service)
  Old People (Meals Service)
ARMED FORCES
  Length of Service
  Length of Service
  Students
  Students
  Defence Costs
  Defence Costs
ROYAL NAVY
  Emergency List Officers (Bonus)
  Emergency List Officers (Bonus)
  Civilian Clothes
  Civilian Clothes
  Poles (Short Service Commissions)
  Poles (Short Service Commissions)
POST OFFICE
  Letters (Postage Underpayment)
  Letters (Postage Underpayment)
  Air Mail
  Air Mail
  Sub-Office, Fordwich
  Sub-Office, Fordwich
BROADCASTING
  B.B.C. (Grant)
  B.B.C. (Grant)
  Television Station, Sutton Coldfield
  Television Station, Sutton Coldfield
  Wavelengths
  Wavelengths
  Income Tax (B.B.C.)
  Income Tax (B.B.C.)
  Licence Receipts
  Licence Receipts
  B.B.C. Accounts
  B.B.C. Accounts
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Installations
  Installations
  Applications, Middlesex
  Applications, Middlesex
  Shared Lines
  Shared Lines
  Exchange Capacity, Coventry
  Exchange Capacity, Coventry
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Kinnell Aerodrome, Angus
  Kinnell Aerodrome, Angus
  Surplus Equipment
  Surplus Equipment
  Requisitioned Site, Waltham Hill
  Requisitioned Site, Waltham Hill
  U.S. Bombers (Visit)
  U.S. Bombers (Visit)
CIVIL AVIATION
  Lord Douglas's Inquiries
  Lord Douglas's Inquiries
  Non-Scheduled Services
  Non-Scheduled Services
  Constellation Aircraft (Servicing)
  Constellation Aircraft (Servicing)
  Aldermaston Aerodrome (Future)
  Aldermaston Aerodrome (Future)
  West Country and Cornwall
  West Country and Cornwall
  Service, Manila
  Service, Manila
GERMANY
  Industrial Plant (Dismantlings)
  Industrial Plant (Dismantlings)
  Machine Tools
  Machine Tools
  Coal Mines (Mechanical Conveyors)
  Coal Mines (Mechanical Conveyors)
  Bad Nenndorf Internment Camp
  Bad Nenndorf Internment Camp
  German Generals (Trial)
  German Generals (Trial)
  Polish Children
  Polish Children
  Reparations (Capital Equipment)
  Reparations (Capital Equipment)
  Repatriated Prisoners of War
  Repatriated Prisoners of War
  Extradition Cases
  Extradition Cases
  War Crimes (Extradited Germans)
  War Crimes (Extradited Germans)
  Steel Scrap (Disposal)
  Steel Scrap (Disposal)
  FOREIGN NATIONALS (BRITISH AWARDS)
  FOREIGN NATIONALS (BRITISH AWARDS)
  THE OGADEN (ADMINISTRATION)
  THE OGADEN (ADMINISTRATION)
  WOMEN'S RIGHTS (CHARTER)
  WOMEN'S RIGHTS (CHARTER)
  BURMA (BRITISH SUBJECTS)
  BURMA (BRITISH SUBJECTS)
  MAJOR-GENERAL GLUBB PASHA
  MAJOR-GENERAL GLUBB PASHA
  WALTER INGBER (REPATRIATION)
  WALTER INGBER (REPATRIATION)
  CYPRUS (AIDE-MEMOIRE TO GREECE)
  CYPRUS (AIDE-MEMOIRE TO GREECE)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Furniture Manufacture (Reconditioned Timber)
  Furniture Manufacture (Reconditioned Timber)
  Anglo-Soviet Agreement
  Anglo-Soviet Agreement
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Aircraft (U.S.S.R.)
  Aircraft (U.S.S.R.)
  Agricultural Engineering Firms (Vans)
  Agricultural Engineering Firms (Vans)
  NATIONAL SERVICE (STUDENTS)
  NATIONAL SERVICE (STUDENTS)
  NATIONAL ACTIVITIES (CLASSIFICATION)
  NATIONAL ACTIVITIES (CLASSIFICATION)
  SCHOOL, HIGHWORTH (ROAD SAFETY)
  SCHOOL, HIGHWORTH (ROAD SAFETY)
  FREIGHTER "LEICESTER" (ABANDONMENT)
  FREIGHTER "LEICESTER" (ABANDONMENT)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Cigarette Exports (Australia)
  Cigarette Exports (Australia)
  United States Loans
  United States Loans
  NATIONAL INSURANCE CARDS (RECEIPTS)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE CARDS (RECEIPTS)
  GERMAN EX-PRISONERS OF WAR (STATEMENTS)
  GERMAN EX-PRISONERS OF WAR (STATEMENTS)
  GERMAN STUDY GROUP (INQUIRIES)
  GERMAN STUDY GROUP (INQUIRIES)
  HOUSING (FOWNHOPE, HEREFORD)
  HOUSING (FOWNHOPE, HEREFORD)
  DEAF AIDS (KETTERING)
  DEAF AIDS (KETTERING)
  AGRICULTURE (HUNTINGDONSHIRE COUNTY COMMITTEE)
  AGRICULTURE (HUNTINGDONSHIRE COUNTY COMMITTEE)
  COAL SUPPLIES, NORTHAMPTON
  COAL SUPPLIES, NORTHAMPTON
  U.K. AND EIRE (TRADE AGREEMENT)
  U.K. AND EIRE (TRADE AGREEMENT)
  NEWFOUNDLAND (CONFEDERATION)
  NEWFOUNDLAND (CONFEDERATION)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers

  THE ADDRESS: MESSAGE FROM THE KING
  2.35 p.m.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have the honour to present a Message from the King, signed with his own hand. It is as follows:
  "I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament."

PARLIAMENT BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill as compared with the Parliament Bill, 1947, contains only such alterations as are necessary owing to the time which has elapsed since the date of that Bill; read 1a, and to be printed.

INDIAN PENSIONS
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the long period during which this question has been under consideration, they are now in a position to make a statement about the grant of proportionate pensions to members of the non-Secretary of State's Services in India and Pakistan.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND PAYMASTER-GENERAL (VISCOUNT ADDISION): My Lords, this matter is still under consideration by the Governments of India and Pakistan. I regret that it is not possible for me to make any further statement at present.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: Is the noble Viscount aware that there is a growing feeling of anxiety on behalf of these men; that many of them have had to leave their posts and that the machinery in this
134
country for finding them alternative occupations does not seem to be working very satisfactorily? If I bring cases to the notice of the appropriate Department, can I be sure that they will be sympathetically considered?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am glad to give the noble Lord that assurance. Everything is being done to assist these officers to obtain other employment. Any who is in need of employment, or who is placed in such circumstances as the noble Lord as mentioned, should apply to the India and Burma Reemployment Branch, Tavistock Square.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: May I ask the noble Viscount whether he can give any indication as to when the Government are likely to be able to make any further statement on this subject?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I have been going further into the matter to-day, but I am afraid that at the moment I cannot say any more.
THE EARL OF SCARBROUGH: May I ask the noble Viscount whether the Government will bear in mind the very long time that the men concerned have been in suspense? It is over a year since their position changed; it is nearly six months since the question was debated in this House, and three months since the Secretary of State concerned received a deputation. All this time they have been waiting, and they do not know what the result will be.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am well aware of all the facts mentioned by the noble Earl. Your Lordships must remember that the Governments of. India and Pakistan are also concerned. We are doing our very best.

TRANSPORT OF GREYHOUNDS
2.38 p.m.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether their attention has been called to the circumstances under which, out of thirteen greyhounds despatched from Holyhead at 7.50 a.m. on July 29 last, six were dead when the train arrived at Crewe at 2.28 p.m. Are they aware

135
that these greyhounds were despatched by parcels train, and that the normal time for a passenger train for this journey is 2½, to 3 hours? What explanation can they give of this treatment of these greyhounds, what caused their death, will proper compensation be paid to the owners and will adequate steps be taken to avoid any possible recurrence of such cruelty to animals in the future?]
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, this is a matter for the British Transport Commission and I am informed by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport that he has brought the noble Lord's question to their attention.
LORD DENHAM: May I ask the noble Lord this question? When great cruelty such as this has been experienced on the railways, is there no Minister who will answer in Parliament and to whom one can put questions?
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, it has been decided that minor matters of detail in the working of the railways cannot be dealt with in Parliament by way of question and answer. I therefore regret that I cannot discuss this matter any further.
LORD DENHAM: May I ask the noble Lord whether he appreciates that these were no minor matters of detail? The local veterinary surgeon gave a certificate to the effect that these dogs suffered first of all from heatstroke and finally died of suffocation. The questions which I am asking, and which are not questions of detail are: How were the bodies of the dogs disposed of? Actually, they were burned. Why were they burned before the owners had any chance of identifying them? Were the dogs visited on this long journey—which was made much too long because they were sent by parcels train instead of passenger train—and their water and ventilation seen to? Finally, will compensation be paid to the owners? I appreciate that the noble Lord cannot answer these questions to-day, but may I ask him to see that they will be answered and the answers sent to me as soon as possible?
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, the points which the noble Lord has raised will be considered, and I have no doubt that he will receive information direct from the Transport Commission.

WORLD CONGRESS OF INTELLECTUALS
2.41 p.m.
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: My Lords, in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, I beg to ask the question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they were responsible for the selection of any of the British delegates to the World Conference of Intellectuals in Poland; and whether they are aware of what were the qualifications required of those who were allowed to attend the Congress.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, His Majesty's Government were not responsible for the selection of any of the British delegates who attended the recent so-called World Congress of Intellectuals at Wroclaw, at the invitation of the Polish authorities: nor were His Majesty's Government consulted or informed as to who should be invited. It is not known what qualifications guided the Polish Organising Committee in selecting the individuals to whom invitations were issued, but I am sure the noble Lord's guess would be as good as mine.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask whether, before these various gentlemen went over to Poland, they did not require a visa and to be more or less vouched for by the Government for their various expenditure allowances?
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, they would require visas, but that would be the extent to which the Government were involved. The Government are not responsible for their maintenance, and therefore accept no responsibility at all.
EARL HOWE: Was the Bank of England responsible for their £35 allowance?
LORD HENDERSON: I cannot say whether they paid their own expenses or whether they went as the guests of the authorities who called the conference. I cannot answer that now—I do not know. But if the noble Earl wants an answer I will get it for him.
EARL HOWE: It would be a very good idea.
LORD VANSITTART: Is not the first qualification for being an "intellectual" the possession of a sense of one's own importance which is shared by no one else?

DEFENCE
2.44 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMANrose to call attention to the Statement on Defence made in this House on September 14, and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Motion which stands in my name on the Paper is to call attention to the statement made by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House on September 14 last on matters of Defence; and it is my intention to confine myself, so far as I possibly can, to examining the Statement as it was made, without attempting this afternoon any much wider survey. I realise, as I have no doubt most of your Lordships do, that the Minister of Defence is to make a Statement in another place to-morrow afternoon; and he would perhaps be less than human if he had interesting announcements to make and allowed the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, who I understand is to reply to this debate, to make them to-day. We cannot expect that.
This afternoon's discussion looks like being one of a fairly long series of debates which we have had ever since 1945. I was looking at some of those important debates last night and it struck me that we on these Benches had been pretty consistent in what we had criticised and suggested—those debates were not, I think, entirely destructive. We have always claimed that expenditure on our Defence Forces should be at a minimum which is certainly rather more than has been allocated to them in the last three years. The case for spending money and recruiting men does not depend only on the state of our export trade at the present time, or at any other time.
Now it is barely six months since the last White Paper on Defence entitled Statement Relating to Defence, 1948 (Cmd. 7327) was issued. I have looked at the debate on that Statement again and I certainly could not detect anything in the words of the Government spokesman suggesting that present events were
138
casting their shadows before. I was, however, glad to see that the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, said that there was no question of renewing the ten-year rule in operation before the war. But in the interval between now and last March, when it was stated that there was no question of renewing the ten-year rule, I have not seen any real sign of stepping up defence preparations. Perhaps a straw may show the way the wind blows. I was looking at the Blue Book recently issued on the Colonial Empire and I saw that it made a comprehensive review of everything else concerning the Colonial Empire, but without any reference to local or any other defence. It may well be that defence has never been mentioned in a Colonial Blue Book before, but that does not alter the fact that in these days there ought not to be issued what purports to be a comprehensive review of the Colonial Empire without mention of preparations for defence and for the preservation of order.
The theme last March, as I understood it, was still the orderly transition from war to peace. Although that theme was not so prominent as it was in the 1947 White Paper it was still there. It is no part of my business this afternoon to anticipate anything that will be said in the Foreign Affairs debate which is to take place in your Lordships' House on Friday. We do not quarrel with the statement that we are living in a time of tension, but that tension certainly calls for defence plans which are designed to deal with the major crisis as well as with the minor upheavals with which we are at present faced in other parts of the world.
That leads me to my first question: Have the Government yet accepted any appreciation from the Chiefs of Staff as to the possible dangers with which we are faced at the present time and, if they have had such an appreciation, have they taken the steps to implement it? I know it is much easier to ask a question of that sort than it is to answer it. Questions of security come in, and it is certainly no part of our business on these Benches to assist in giving information to any quarter which perhaps should not receive it. On the other hand, I think it is a fair comment to say that it would be very difficult for us or, I should imagine, any other Party outside the Government to give

139
to defence plans that whole-hearted support which we should like to give when, since the end of the Coalition Government, we have been completely lacking in information. One cannot have it both ways. If we had a return to the old days of the Committee of Imperial Defence, it would not be necessary to ask a question of this sort across the floor of the House.
None the less, I make that point because, unless the main appreciation has been made and has been accepted, one knows quite well that nothing whatever will happen. No plans can be proceeded with, no men can be recruited, no material can be designed, no financial sanction for any of these steps will be given; and it seems to us that, until that state of affairs is reached, until the real operational plan is being proceeded with, then in spite of anything which may be said, very little will be done to improve the defence position of this country. I am sorry to say that we in this quarter of the House have had the feeling since 1945 that some of the big decisions have been missing. One might almost wish that the approach made by His Majesty's Government to Defence had been the same bold and confident approach that they have made to subjects like the nationalisation of industry, which some of us think were less necessary. But no. When this Government came into power in 1945, so far as I am aware, they found themselves with plans prepared by their Service advisers. Those plans were ready, yet months and years passed by, and nothing seemed to be done—at least nothing was done openly—to settle whether those plans should or should not be adopted.
Nothing, for instance, was done to settle the thorny problem of National Service. I know that in 1946 the transitional White Paper appeared and, of course, it is perfectly true that National Service has been continuous from the end of the Second World War until the present time. But my point is that, by failing to deal with the whole question of National Service, and by dealing only with the transitional White Paper, no plans were made for Reserve service. Reserve service did not come in until the National Service Act. As a result, no training of the Reserves or of the Territorial Army can now begin until 1950. Your Lordships will see in a
140
moment that there is some doubt even about that, whereas it might well have been wise and necessary to begin the training of Reserves at some time earlier.
Coupled with that, we from these Benches have regularly and persistently spoken about the need to lay down proper conditions for the service of Regular sailors, soldiers and airmen. We have always felt that the conditions of service which were laid down fell short, not only of what was wanted to attract the right people but also of the proper way to treat those people once they were in the Services. We will never let go of that. But to my mind, here again, even what has been done has been done late, with the result that in the early days, when the early numbered groups were being released from the Forces, a number of valuable non-commissioned officers and warrant officers in all three Services, particularly in the Army, were lost through the conditions and rates of pay not being fair. One can get away with all these defects for a time, but the time comes (and it has come now) when some of them come home to roost. I mention some of these things because, in the Statement made by the noble Viscount the other day, the Government stated that the weak state of the Forces was caused by the Government's obligation to those who were serving and to the economic situation. As I have just said, there was an obligation, and there always is an obligation, to those who are serving. My point is not that that obligation should have been discarded—because we want no such thing—but that more steps should have been taken to recruit the new entry, in which case the shortage would not be so great.
It is perfectly true, of course, that the economic situation is a most difficult one, and except of the strictest necessity nothing must be done which might interfere with our efforts to balance the Budget. But to say that the shortage of men was due to the economic situation is rather over-simplifying the real state of affairs. The economic situation and the needs of the economic situation ought to play an important part in regulating the number who from time to time go into the Services, and who from time to time come out; but the economic situation, whatever it may be, ought not to prevent the formation of a proper plan

141
and a proper framework for the Defence Forces into which the right number of people can be put and from which the right number of people can be released. So do not let us be tempted into using the economic situation as a sort of joker, which people play whenever they want a quick way out of some particular situation, because that joker has been played fairly often lately, especially in regard to the Defence Forces, and that card is becoming just a little dog-eared and tattered. Let the Forces stand on their own legs, and let us treat them according to the need that we see at the time. Do not let us bring in the economic situation to "binge" up the Treasury for refusing things for which the Services' advisers have asked.
We come now to the present time. From what I have said, from what my noble friends have said, not only now but in previous debates, and from what is apparent to the public, I think it is plain that the whole plan has not worked out. The Regular cadres are smaller than they should be and, for that reason, if for no other reason, the intake of National Service men has had to be restricted. The men themselves have had a rather rough time. They have had to cover jobs which would have been done by other people had the Regular establishment been full. The worse the postwar plans have become, the greater has been the strain on the Forces. We all hoped a year ago that we should get rid of our commitments in places like Austria and Trieste, and I think it is true to say that because we hoped that, in our plans and our estimates we allowed no margin of troops to deal with unforeseen occurrences, such as have arisen in Austria and Trieste. Still less, I think, did we make any real allowance for disturbances in places like Malaya or, for that matter, for the much more unforeseen contingency, the Berlin Air Lift. So the whole machine is gradually being thrown out of gear. A great many units in the R.A.F. and in the Army are being taken away from their proper rôles and turned to some other rôle—a course which is always expensive and never efficient.
I honestly do not know at the moment what is the state of the Field Force in the Army or its counterparts in the Navy and the Air Force, but such common sense as
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I have tells me that you cannot meet all these unforeseen commitments without robbing the Field Forces, which are the greatest buttress of our foreign policy. There is a great deal of difference between having numbers of sailors, soldiers, and airmen, and having a Fleet, an Army and an Air Force. It may be said, that we have probably more people under arms than we ever had before in peace time, but I think it would be fair comment to say that never before were there so many people under arms and so few field units of the Field Forces. The only purpose of having soldiers under arms is to have efficient Field Forces which can take the field or the air, or wherever their duty lies, and be ready for battle. It is no good the Government thinking they can have dual-purpose Forces. It is no good thinking they can turn the Rhine Army largely into a training establishment and still have it fit for battle. Those of your Lordships who read an article in the Daily Telegraph the other day will very much admire the performance of the Commanders of the chine Army in working out this complicated system of training and in dealing as well as they are dealing with the National Service man. None the less, I think all of us will ask ourselves whether this is really a job that ought to be going on overseas, and whether it is really possible to combine training establishment and Field Forces. Personally, I do not think so.
However, His Majesty's Government have come to Parliament with the Statement which they made on September 14. Let us look at that Statement. First of all, we come to the three months that are added to the term of service of those who are due to be released. I will come back to that, if I may, in a minute. Next, and very important, are the efforts to be made to stimulate recruitment of Regulars in all three Services. We have not been told in the Statement exactly what fresh steps are to be taken. I agree, and we have often said, that a great many steps ought to be taken; we have said that on several occasions. But "handsome is as handsome does." I doubt very much whether it is right to leave untouched the pay of the Regular soldier when the pay of everybody else is raised. These matters must be considered together; it will never be satisfactory if increases in pay and rises in the cost of living continue, and a

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battle has to be fought to get the Service man his rights.
We have many times spoken in your Lordships' House about married quarters. A great deal was due to be done in 1945, not merely to repair the bomb damage caused in the war, and to restore the married quarters after their use by the Women's Services, but also because after the war many of the troops were in new locations which had not been used in peace time. We on this side of the House are still in complete ignorance as to whether Mr. Aneurin Bevan has parted with a single married quarter to his colleague, Mr. Shinwell, and we should very much like an answer to that. Then there is the question of food. We know that in the interests of economy no food must be wasted. But has not the food of the Service man been cut down a bit too low, bearing in mind what he has to do? I will leave that point, if I may, because I believe that at least one of my noble friends is going to make it.
We have as the third point in the Statement the recruiting campaign, which was originally started for the Territorial Army and which, I am glad to know, is now open to all three Auxiliary Services. In his Statement the noble Viscount who leads the House bespoke the support of everybody for the recruiting campaign. I know my noble friends will agree with me when I say that we on these Benches will do everything we can to support that campaign. Many of us, in all parts of the House, are already doing so as members of Territorial Army and Auxiliary Forces Associations. The only thing I would add to what I have said is this: the more we know of the effort and what is wanted, the easier it will be for us to support a campaign of this sort, as we should do so with our heads as well as with our hearts. There is one other point on this matter of recruiting. I know that the Council of Territorial Army Associations have put a number of proposals to the War Office in connection with this Territorial Army recruiting. Those proposals are based on careful thought and long experience, and I very much hope that those recommendations will be accepted in the War Office. They are all made with the idea of promoting the campaign.
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Then, my Lords, the Statement goes on to deal with the supply position. On the face of it, the words actually used about the supply position read very well. They are encouraging, and the only reason that I do not use warmer words of praise is because one cannot tell from such a bald statement exactly how much is going on. We do not know whether the increase in tanks is to mean one or 100, or whether the increase in warships is to mean one or ten. It is difficult to answer a question of this kind, but my noble friends, Lord Teynham and Lord Selkirk, will deal with the Naval and the Air Force aspects of it. The question, however, would not need to be asked if that information were available confidentially to the Party to which I belong.
I would make only one more point in this connection—namely, that it is not sufficient merely to authorise the supply of ships, aircraft, weapons and vehicles, but it is necessary to see that the design is settled, and that arguments about design and tactical use stop in plenty of time for production to take place. I mention that because of the sad state of affairs I witnessed in 1939 and the early days of 1940, when, long after the invasion of France had begun, disputes about the right type of tank were still going on in the War Office and all the financiers were, I think—and this may be rather a hard ting, to say—glad that they had not to find the money for their production. It is part of the business of the Government to keep order among the experts in these matters, and to see that the design is settled in its proper time so that production can fit into the plan, otherwise we shall repeat our bitter experience all over again.
I will leave Civil Defence, which the Statement mentions, not because it is unimportant but again because my noble friend Lord Teynham will, I think, deal with it later in the debate. I want to return for a moment to the central feature of the Statement, which I take to be the extension of the call-up. Admitting that it is a necessary step to take at the present time, I am bound to say that, by itself, unless it is accompanied by further steps—which, it may be, will be announced to-morrow—it is a sorry way to deal with the problem. It is a short-term measure, if ever there was one, although, as I say, I admit that

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it is necessary and it will have the immediate effect of keeping 80,000 trained men with the Colours at a critical time. But it will have other effects which will not be quite so good, unless they are corrected later. First, it will only postpone the evil day and it can, I think, apply only to the men called up under the transitional scheme. And when the effect of the extra three months has worn off, the run-down will be steeper than ever—steeper even than if the three months had not been added.
The second point to be considered is this: How does it tie up with arrangements under the National Service Act? It will possibly seem quite all right, if we indulge in wishful thinking and imagine that these different crises all over the world are going to sort themselves out by 1949. But I am not taking that view. I say that we must look further, and see what else is necessary. We must bear in mind that if something is not done, and if the three months is kept on after 1950, then the whole of the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces recruiting campaign must go wrong for at least three months, because Reservists will not come out for three months after they were supposed to be released. So your Lordships will see that the whole matter as it stands is not in good order. Many of the things which we ventured to forecast some time ago seem to have come to pass. Worse still, this step of extending the Colour service for three months must interfere with the private affairs of many unfortunate men in the three Services who, it may be, have planned to go home to civil life, possibly to marry, perhaps to start their careers in industry.
It may well be that it was necessary because nothing had been done before, but it is true—indeed, I imagine it is not disputed—that Ministers must take their share of responsibility for it. But unfortunately it is not the Ministers who have to interview the men in the ranks and tell them that things have gone wrong again and that they must stay in the Service for another three months. This comes just at the time when Commanding Officers of ships, Army units, R.A.F. stations and so on have been trying to get into that position which we all know is so vitally important—the position where the leaders trust their men and the men trust their leaders. At this critical point this spanner is thrown into the
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works. To those of us who have had experience of regimental soldiering, it seems enough to break a lion's heart.
Something more has to be done and, I think, done very quickly. I feel that so far I have made rather a doleful and destructive speech. That is partly because the Statement itself has not been very constructive. We need more than what is outlined in the Statement to give back to the Services the stability which they must have if they are to be value for money to the taxpayer and value for money to the Government. We have not got it now, and this Statement, by itself, does little to point the way to it. I do not wish to range wider than matters which are covered in the Statement, and I do not expect an answer to-day to what I am going to say, but I should not like to finish my remarks without trying to strike a constructive note. These are the things that I believe are wanted. First, there must be an amending Bill to the National Service Act to give more scope than the twelve months' period gives now. Secondly, we must see that, whatever happens, we do not delay the inflow of the National Service men to the Territorial Army, beyond the time when it was forecast—January, 1950. Indeed I am not sure whether we ought not to have it earlier.
Then we have to deal with the legal powers relating to part time Civil Defence men, and also, I think, the Home Guard. We have, further, to make an honest and concerted attempt to clear up the conditions of service for Regular, Territorial and Auxiliary Forces, so that the conditions are such as to attract in the open market the right people whom we want. Last, but not least, there must be a proper settlement with the authorities in industry—the F.B.I. and the T.U.C.—over the whole question of reserved occupations, now and in wartime. We must have it settled what industry can spare and whom industry can spare, what industry cannot spare and whom industry cannot spare.
My Lords, that is what I feel about this White Paper. I consider that there is a great deal to be done, and although it is now nearly too late it is not too late yet. When I came to consider what this Statement amounted to, I was reminded of a review of a book on tactics which I read a long time ago. That review stated:

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"Books on tactics are either sheep or else they are goats. This one is definitely a goat, but it is a good goat, as goats go."
This Statement, I think, is definitely a goat, but it is a good goat, as goats go. In other words, it seems to represent the best way of taking immediate action to deal with a situation which, in our view, ought not to have come to such a pass. Whether it is to be accompanied by the wider-reaching and even more necessary measures which we think are called for, we may not hear to-day. Let us, at any rate, hope that we shall hear a rumour to-morrow. I beg to move for Papers.
3.18 p.m.
LORD MOYNIHAN: My Lords, I welcome the opportunity of joining in this debate to-day because I feel that, owing to the extremely unsettled state of the world, such a debate is of immediate importance and could ill have afforded to wait, as other subjects might well have done, till a later date. Few of us would have expected—and none, I believe, would have wished it—that just three years after the end of hostilities we would be debating Defence in your Lordships' House, not in a peace-time atmosphere but with the threat of war nearer, I suppose, than it has ever been in a comparable time in our history before. Few of us would have expected—although I am sure that a great number of us are agreed upon the step—that in peacetime American bombers would be allowed the use of British bases without the matter having been debated in either House of Parliament. Nevertheless, the situation in the world generally is such that we must ask ourselves now the question: Are we really ready? If the first bomb of the Third World War were to drop this afternoon, should we be ready to go into action with the full forces that are needed behind us? Obviously I am not asking for any secret military information, but there are a few points I would like to put before the Government for their consideration.
During the last two wars we apparently found that we could be unprepared at the beginning of the war and could spend the first few months in getting ready and up to date. Let us face the stark truth. If we did that again, we should not be able to hold this country at all. After what historians of the future would probably call the greatest
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losing battle in history, the few of us who remained here would have to watch the progress of the rest of the war as members of an occupied territory. That is what would happen if we were unprepared. I do not think that at the present moment many people in this country realise that fact; or, if they do, they are trying to forget it and to live from day to day. I should like to quote one sentence from last Sunday's Observer. Talking about the scheme for National Service men, it says:
"No further expansion is likely, but plans have been approved for increasing the number of workers to some 200,000 within a year of the outbreak of hostilities."
What a hope in an atom bomb war! What is happening now—not what will happen when the war starts, if it does start—about the standardisation of transport? We shall, I hope, find ourselves in agreement with the United States of America and the rest of Europe. Are we in agreement about what kind of transport we are going to use or are we going on in the same old way, using anything that comes to hand?
I do not want to go into all the old arguments this afternoon. After the last war we had an orderly, well-thought-out scheme of demobilisation. That scheme was essential, just as it was essential to keep our Forces up to a certain strength, compatible with all the requirements we had to take over. We had to retain an adequate Army, and we did so; but some of us considered then, and still feel, that the method used was the wrong method. It is impossible now to judge what would have been the results if we had gone all out for a voluntary Regular Army, with a voluntary Territorial Army to support it, because the main deterrent to enlistment on a voluntary basis is the continued conscript service in peace time. We cannot turn over now, of course, with the state of the world as it is, and risk having only a voluntary force. But I believe it would be possible to attempt to do that, if we could make use of the 4,500,000 now on Reserve who fought for this country during the war. In my own opinion, the present system is not, and never will be, a success. I do not think it matters whether the National Service man's time is six, twelve, fifteen or eighteen months—or any other time. I do not think an extension of National Service will make the difference that is

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necessary. The change made on September 14 gives us, in the words of the Government, 80,000 more trained men at the end of the year. But it depends on what we mean by "trained men." In my opinion, very few of these men are up to the standard required to go into war immediately. I do not think they are even so well trained as those who had two or three years' fighting during the war and are now on Reserve.
The other point I would like to make on this matter is that, with the exception of certain regiments with the greatest and oldest traditions, which, because of this, had the biggest number of recruits, I do not think the Regular Army at its present size can possibly cope with the two types of work which it has to do—its own work and the training of raw recruits. My second point is that even if everything was going on all right, we would have a maximum of only 100,000 new men a year; and at the end of the year these men would be only half-trained. If your Lordships speak, as I know you all do, and as I take every opportunity of doing, to the ordinary National Service man in the streets on week-end leave, you will find there is always one thing he can tell you straight away—the day of his release. If he knows nothing else, he knows—or at least he knew up to September 14—the exact day he was expecting to go home. I do not think that is the spirit with which we can face another war.
Because of the international situation as it is now, and because we have to be prepared, may I make this suggestion? Let there be an immediate re-registration of the 4,500,000 people who were in the last war; tell them what they have to do, and where they are to go. Of these 4,500,000, I should think that at a minimum estimate those still available to serve number over 2,000,000. They could be held ready, at a moment's notice, knowing where they would have to go. Is that not the practical answer to our problem, and would that not have an enormous effect throughout the whole world—an effect which would make other people realise that we meant what we said, and that we would go into a war with far greater numbers and far better trained men than we have ever done before?
Obviously in a speech of this length this afternoon, I cannot go into details
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of how this could be done. But it could be done by part-time training, at least so far as the officers are concerned. I am not suggesting for a moment that we pass over the Territorial Army. I think that the Territorial Army and the Regular Army, relieved of their double task, would be able to tackle recruiting with very great success it the immediate future. Take the Gunners, as one example. Artillery officers could be sent for a course at Larkhill, where, with the latest equipment and good instructors, a week's training would be enough to bring the majority of them up to date. And it would be a great incentive to them to join the Territorial Army. I think we have to point out one thing to these 2,000,000. If they rejoin, as I hope they will have to, they will rejoin in the ranks open to them. The Territorial Army is very small, but those of us who are in it are learning the whole time, and when we reach a grade we are given the rank for that grade. It is becoming apparent that grades are going to be high and, however small the numbers of officers, Territorial Army officers will hold high and responsible rank in an emergency. It may be that the men who come in afterwards will be forced, if necessary, to take a lower rank. I believe that if we carried out this re-registration, it would relieve the Regular Army of its double rôle and we would have an opportunity of obtaining a voluntary Regular force some 350,000 to 400,000 strong and, at the same time, a fully prepared and strong Territorial Army. The deterrent of having to train unwilling National Service men would have gone.
As the noble Viscount, Lord Bridge-man, said in his opening speech, many things have still to be done. Army pay must be reconsidered. Married quarters must be considered—a question we have continually raised and insisted upon. At camp only a few weeks ago, I found young married officers having to pay enormous summer rents because there were no married quarters. For that they received not one penny more than if they were living in the camp itself. That cannot be fair, and it cannot be the way to encourage anyone with incentive to go into the Army. These arguments have all been put forward before, and I hope that we shall have another opportunity later on in the year to debate them again. In passing, I would like to mention a

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headline that I saw a few days ago in the Daily Mirror saying: "The higher your rank, the bigger your leave." That is a good step in the right direction, provided that the high rank goes with efficiency, and not with length of service. If it goes with length of service, then I cannot see any point in it at all.
Finally, as I think it is an integral part of our defence scheme at the moment, I would like to say a few words on the Territorial Army and the autumn campaign. The success of this really depends on how the campaign is conducted. We should show great appreciation to the Press of this country for the space that has been given in the papers to this matter of recruitment. I do not think it is the fault of the Press that the recruits do not come forward. May I appeal very humbly to those people who speak from the political platform, and to those with high military rank? What we want now is the old Territorial Army spirit, and we shall get that spirit back only if speeches are made with complete sincerity and with unity of purpose. I am a serving Territorial officer. It is always impertinent to criticise higher authority, even when the opportunity is presented, but I would like to say this. In the last few months I have found considerable differences of opinion among many senior officers. That does not help. If we are to make a success of this, we must have unity of purpose and complete help from everyone. May I remind them that if this is a success a very great weight will be lifted from their minds? The whole of the defence of this country is to be on quite a different basis. Surely, from their point of view as well as from the point of view of everybody else, that needs a tremendous effort.
Whomsoever you talk to in authority, be he in the Forces or an important political person, when the Territorial Army is mentioned, there is always the excuse that there is no money. Surely, with the country in its present condition, it will be cheaper to spend a few million pounds—and that is all it will cost—on putting these things right, rather than to risk a war. In the event of war there would be no millions left in the country for anyone. I do not want to be too gloomy on the matter of another war. My idea is to stop it coming, and the best way to
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do that is by being prepared. We cannot remain out of another war should it come, however much we want to, or however much we think we ought to. Our geographical position, which has always hitherto been our safeguard, is now exactly the opposite. Do not let us fool ourselves in that respect. Let us work as hard as we can to prevent a war; and at all costs, if it has to come, let us be prepared for it.
3.34 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I am sure the whole House, and certainly those who sit on these Benches, very much welcomed the Statement on Defence made by the Leader of the House during the debate on the Address, even though it was not a very comprehensive statement. Particular interest, of course, attaches to the question of deferment. I propose to deal with that matter, and a little later to refer to the plans for defence as they may affect the Navy. In the first place, I would suggest that it is only partly true that the disturbed conditions in the world and the Berlin crisis have led to the revision of the demobilisation plans. There is little doubt that the high rate of demobilisation has had a great effect on the efficiency of the Fighting Services. It was clear many months ago that the whole scheme had got out of hand, but it is only now that His Majesty's Government have had the courage to bring forward this proposed amendment. Perhaps, in one respect, the Berlin crisis presented a welcome opportunity to His Majesty's Government to get out of their difficulties and to reorganise the Forces without causing too much strife and dissension in their own Party and amongst their own followers. In the past we have witnessed the folly of His Majesty's Government bowing down before the pressure of their Party, when the National Service period was reduced from eighteen months to twelve months. I hope that in the near future we shall see an amending Bill brought forward to extend the National Service period from one year—which I think comes into force from January 1 next—to at least eighteen months. There is little doubt that this is the minimum period of effective service that will enable the Forces to be properly trained.
But the matter goes much deeper than that. The present plan put forward by

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His Majesty's Government is, of course, only a stop-gap measure, and does not go anywhere like far enough. What is required is a fully trained Army in about two years' time, and not in four or five years' time as is envisaged by the present plans for the Regular and Territorial Armies. I suggest that the whole of our plans for the Army will have to be recast in the light of the present international situation. The present stop-gap measures will, of course, have comparatively little effect on the man-power of the Navy, owing to the small proportion of National Service men in the Navy as compared with the Regular recruits.
I believe it was said in another place that the Conservative Party were insistent after the war that demobilisation should take place as soon as possible, and should be much accelerated. That is quite true. But what are the facts? We recommended that demobilisation should commence as soon as possible after the cessation of hostilities, but two years were wasted by His Majesty's Government before anything was done at all. I cannot help feeling that if demobilisation had been started much earlier we should have been in a much better position than we are to-day. It is perhaps interesting to recall the total figures for the Armed Forces which were recommended by the Conservative Party at that time. For the Navy the number recommended was 150,000 men; for the Royal Air Force, 400,000 men; and for the Army 1,000,000 men. That gives a total of 1,550,000. These figures were put forward by Mr. Churchill on October 22, 1945.
According to the latest figures which I have seen, the total Service man-power is now only about half the figure recommended by Mr. Churchill. I believe the figure on July 1 was approximately 860,000 men. There is little doubt that if the numbers put forward by Mr. Churchill had been maintained we should have had a properly balanced force in our three Services. Our position in relation to negotiations in foreign affairs would have been much more satisfactory, and the difficulties would thereby have been minimised. I would suggest that the proposal put forward by His Majesty's Government to retain for a further period of three months men in the Forces now due for release, is of comparatively little
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value. A considerable increase in our Forces will be required in the near future in order that our commitments can be carried out. It is clear that the short period of twelve months of National Service will have the effect of rendering the whole scheme of relatively little use to the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. These two Services are highly specialised and they require, of course, a much longer period for effective training. On the present basis, I think only about 2,000 Naval Reservists will be produced under the present scheme, which, of course, is hardly a basis for a rapid expansion of the Navy should the need arise. I hope the First Lord of the Admiralty will be able to indicate how he proposes to build up extra Royal Naval Reserves.
The solution of the whole problem of increasing the strength of our Forces is not merely to extend the National Service period, but to adopt means to increase the strength of our Regular Forces. I am sure that the best and most efficiently conducted recruiting campaign will not attract men unless His Majesty's Government take steps to improve the conditions of pay and, last but not least, the rations of food which are issued to troops on foreign service and operational service. Men undergoing extensive and rigorous training require substantial quantities of food, and it is a fact that a great deal of the men's pay at present is spent in buying food in the N.A.A.F.I. canteens. There is little doubt that it has been a false economy on the part of His Majesty's Government to reduce the Forces' rations on the plea of economy in dollar expenditure. In any case, the financial saving is very small, and I suspect that the real reason is to be found in the suggestion that the Forces are being unduly favoured. I do not believe that the civilian population would in any way grudge an increase of food given to the men in the Forces.
I hope His Majesty's Government will give serious consideration to both pay and food, which I am sure will have to be considered as soon as possible in order to improve recruiting. It is the case that many young married junior officers and non-commissioned office -sin the Army, and Petty Officers in the Navy, have a difficult time in making both ends meet. It is extremely difficult for them to avoid

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running into debt, with the present rate of pay and the increased cost of living and high taxation. It is, of course, true that there are several millions of trained ex-Service men of the three Services in civilian life, and I should like to ask His Majesty's Government whether steps have been taken to set up a shadow register of these men and whether a mobilisation plan is, in fact, in existence, so that if an emergency arises we shall not see chaos and dislocation in industry.
The whole question is wrapped up in that of the most effective use of manpower, and there is little doubt that, in spite of the progress reported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to our recent industrial improvement, the plans for mobilising the labour force of the country have not been successful. Now we are faced with the necessity of allocating additional workers as soon as possible to factories engaged in aircraft production or on producing defence equipment. Can His Majesty's Government give any assurance that they have a real and effective man-power policy? Direction of labour has, of course, failed, and rightly so in a free society. But what do His Majesty's Government propose to put in its place? I suggest that there should be a constructive policy of attracting labour in the essential trades by suitable inducements and rewards.
In connection with the Naval Service, I should now like to refer to a matter which is of the utmost importance, and that is the Royal Naval Reserve. I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is replying for the Government, whether any steps have been taken to consult the shipping industry on this very important matter of the training of Royal Naval Reserve officers. I understand that some two years ago the Officers' Merchant Navy Federation were invited to express a considered opinion on the whole matter, but, so far as I am aware, no further developments have taken place. I need hardly point out to your Lordships the utmost importance of building up a fully trained Royal Naval Reserve as we have had in the past.
There is a particular aspect of Naval training to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. I understand that at present there is no West Country
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naval training establishment at all, and that both H.M.S. "Impregnable" and H.M.S. "Raleigh" have been closed down. I suggest that this decision is having, and will have in the future, a grave effect on the recruiting of West Country seamen. I would like to suggest that H.M.S. "Raleigh" should be open as a West Country training centre, not only for Regular boy recruits but also for the drafts of National Service men who are to be trained in the Navy. I know it is true that overheads at H.M.S. "Impregnable" were heavy in comparison with the number of boys trained, but this should not apply in the case of H.M.S. "Raleigh," where facilities are available for considerably larger numbers of men. I think it is deplorable that at the present time there is no training centre in the West Country for the rightful successors of Drake and perhaps the best seamen in the world.
I understand that West Country seamen are now trained in Scotland, but I have heard unconfirmed rumours that even this training centre may be closed down in the near future. Is it the intention of the Admiralty to concentrate all naval training in the future at Shotley Establishment on the East Coast? It is of great importance to have flexibility in training, and concentration of large numbers of men at any one establishment can only lead to a loss of personal contact between the training officers and the men themselves—contact which is so essential for a really effective and happy organisation. I hope the First Lord of the Admiralty will seriously consider the re-opening of a West Country establishment as soon as possible.
I should now like to touch upon a matter which is of vital importance to our problem of defence, and that is the replacement of our merchant fleet. It is, of course, just as true to-day as in the past that our sea power is largely dependent on our Mercantile Marine, and that our air power alone would be quite unable to transport all the food and materials that would be required in the event of war. What is the position of our Merchant Navy to-day? I understand that the total tonnage of merchant shipping under construction at the present time is something over 4,250,000 tons gross, of which one third is for foreign account, but owing to the low allocation

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of steel the output for this year in merchant shipping will barely reach 1,000,000 tons.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): I regret interrupting the noble Lord, but I think he is confusing actual construction with orders for tonnage which it is estimated will spread over a period of four years.
LORD TEYNHAM: I quite agree: I am referring to orders for construction. But the fact is that construction cannot be proceeded with because of the low allocation of steel. It is vitally important that the Government should reconsider the allocation of steel to the shipbuilding industry. I know of one of the largest firms who are receiving only 40 per cent. of their maximum requirements in steel. This, of course, is having a grave effect on the Lime of delivery. We cannot afford to neglect our merchant fleet in this fashion, and I hope His Majesty's Government will again look seriously into the question of steel deliveries to the shipbuilding industry.
I would now like for a few moments to draw your Lordships' attention to the state of our Fleet, and to the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to escort and anti-submarine vessels. In the past it has been frequently pointed out in your Lordships' House—and I think especially in the recent debate on the Naval Estimates—that the majority of the escort vessels of the last war are now far too slow to deal effectively with the modern high-speed submarine. I would suggest that immediate steps should be taken to provide a nucleus of high-speed and seaworthy vessels suitable for escort and anti-submarine work. I hope the First Lord of the Admiralty will be able to give a satisfactory assurance on this important matter. I also hope that it will be the policy of His Majesty's Government to restrict the sales of any further destroyers, and cease to break up any more of them unless they are absolutely beyond repair. I hope at the same time that they will accelerate the building of those destroyers which are now under construction. The destroyer is still the only vessel which can deal effectively in open water with the modern high-speed submarine.
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Perhaps the First Lord will also allow me to draw his attention to the Statement on Naval Policy which he made in this House on March 8. In that Statement he gave a long list of ships which were to be fully commissioned by the end of this year. I should like to ask if he can give some indication whether that estimate is likely to be fulfilled; and further, whether he can give any indication of additional ships which are likely to be put into full commission in the first quarter of next year. Perhaps he will also make a statement on the condition of the Reserve Fleet and on what steps are being taken, if any, to re-condition them and bring them up to date. I am sure your Lordships were interested to learn from the Press that the First Lord is proceeding with the Home Fleet to-morrow on their cruise to the West Indies. I am sure we all wish him a very good voyage. Perhaps before he goes he would like to indicate to the House the number and types of ships that will proceed with him and how they are manned.
We have recently seen announcements in the Press concerning Civil Defence. I do not wish to delay your Lordships long on this important matter because I understand it will be dealt with by a noble Lord later. But in a recent debate many questions were put to His Majesty's Government which were only partially answered; and the House were given to understand that the whole matter was under serious and urgent re-consideration. Perhaps His Majesty's Government would like to take this opportunity of making a statement on their proposed plans; and I hope that, in doing so, they will be able to indicate that the valuable experience gained, which has by this time, I hope, been analysed, is being taken into account. Many of us or this side of the House are not only anxious about our immediate stage of readiness as regards Defence, but are also particularly concerned about plans that may or may not have been prepared to deal with mobilization in case of emergency. Last, but not least, we are concerned as to whether His Majesty's Government have a well-thought-out man-power policy, on which so much depends. I hope the noble Viscount who is to reply will be able to give your Lordships a reassuring and satisfactory statement concerning Defence which I am sure would be welcomed on all sides of the House.
3.53 p.m.
LORD NEWALL: My Lords, the problems confronting His Majesty's Government and the Service Departments to-day, resulting from the international situation, are in many ways similar to those which had to be overcome in 1935 and the following years. The main difference is that in 1935 our defences had been allowed to reach a perilously low level over a long period—fifteen or more years—whereas to-day we are suffering from the results of a very rapid demobilisation immediately following the war. Perhaps I may make this difficulty clearer by a simple mechanical simile: in 1935 our national motorcar, so to speak, was at the bottom of a hill, facing the wrong way, and the engine was completely seized through lack of oil and years of neglect; whereas to-day our car is running downhill very rapidly in reverse gear. That is roughly the difference. We have acquired a considerable momentum in this run-down. The problem in both cases is the same—namely, to get the car moving again, forward, uphill and in a fit condition to accelerate if necessary.
I am keenly aware of the difficulties of the present situation, having myself been closely concerned with giving effect to the Government's change of policy in 1935 and the few years following. At that time, after many years of drastic reduction of every form of expenditure, it was naturally difficult for the Civil Service—the faithful watch-dogs of the Treasury—suddenly to attune their mental outlook to the new Government policy of expansion. I give place to no one in my admiration of the loyalty, integrity and conscientious zeal of the civil servants, but I do hope that His Majesty's Government will instruct the Treasury to emphasise the urgency of the present situation upon the accounting officers of the Services and other Departments in order that all measures that are approved may be acted upon without delay. I may say that in 1935 and the years that followed we experienced great difficulty in getting things done.
In the light of recently announced defence measures I suggest to your Lordships that it is now prudent that we should take stock of our position; and I will confine myself to the Royal Air Force. The Defence Policy of His Majesty's Government was announced in
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October, 1947, and the following priorities were given: first, defence research; second, the maintenance of the structure and of the initial striking power of the Royal Air Force; and third, the defence of sea communications. I think noble Lords will agree that it is an air striking force alone which can provide the threat which may deter a potential enemy from either resorting to or provoking war. If that deterrent should fail during the initial onslaught, our safety will depend entirely on the Royal Air Force and its radar screen. Rapid expansion of the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of war, or, in fact, at any time, is not possible without long and detailed planning and actual preparation, such as preparation in the factories over a period of years.
For more than three years prior to September, 1939, an emergency had been foreseen, and in consequence when war started the Royal Air Force was already in process of expansion (largely due, may I remind your Lordships, to the great endeavours of my noble friends Lord Swinton and Lord Weir), and we were able to speed up the machine, which by then was already moving steadily and in the right direction. Even so, and with the added advantage of the considerable period of relative inactivity after the declaration of war, it was only by a small margin that we were able to survive the scale of attack to which we were subjected in 1940. I cannot too strongly emphasise that the strength and efficiency of an Air Force is almost entirely a matter of long-term policy and long-range planning. There is no short cut, and measures taken to-day are unlikely to show results for a very considerable time.
Since the end of the last war, the Royal Air Force has been rapidly reduced, and large numbers of its most skilled and experienced men have left the Service. Throughout the war there was no long-service intake for Regular enlistment and, as a result, we now find the trade structure in the Service seriously unbalanced, an acute shortage in some of the key trades, and a general lowering of the level of skill and experience in the regular cadre. There is no quick remedy for this state of affairs; and I suggest very earnestly to His Majesty's Government that the exodus of trained men should now be halted and that inducements should be offered to skilled ex-Service men to return to the Service. Neither

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the National Service entry for a one year period nor the three months' suspension of releases recently announced contributes materially to the solution of the Royal Air Force personnel problem. The period of one year is too short, and the employment of so large a proportion of skilled men upon the training of frequent new entries, who serve for so short a time, is unsatisfactory. I think it is well known that it is only from its long-service element that the Royal Air Force can obtain full value. Unfortunately, the volunteer recruits who make the Service their profession are not coining forward in sufficient numbers. We are neither keeping the trained and experienced men nor attracting the long-service recruits, because the pay and conditions of service, and the prospects, compare unfavourably with those in civil life. Many suggestions for improving this state of affairs have been made in your Lordships' House, but so far as I am aware none has been adopted or accepted. I have even heard it said that the Royal Air Force is slowly dying from man-power starvation. Whether or not this is a true description of the state of affairs, it seems dear that the essential steps to maintain its structure and initial striking power have not been taken.
So much for personnel. I would now like to refer to the question of equipment. The production of the new types of aircraft, with their ancillary equipment, is an even more complicated problem than the provision of adequately trained men. Four or five years will frequently elapse between the issue of a production order to a factory and the first few deliveries to the Service, and further months will pass before they can be used on operations. Mention has been made recently of new long-range bombers to replace our present obsolescent types, and of jet bombers coming "soon"—I think that was the expression used. What does "soon" mean? It is the time factor which is all-important in this question. I do not ask for a reply, but an assurance from the noble Viscount who is to reply for the Government, that overriding priority is being given to the development and preparation for production of these new bomber aircraft would be welcome. With regard to fighter aircraft, we are fortunate that our latest types are among the best in the world, and it is extremely
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satisfactory to know—and here I quote the actual words of the recent Statement—that
"we are adopting measures that will nearly double the present output of certain fighters."
The real value of these measures depends upon how soon the output will be nearly doubled. Here again, may we be assured that no effort will be spared and no reasonable expenditure withheld in order that this increased rate of production may be achieved in the shortest possible time? And may I ask why "nearly double"? Why not "double"? Why should it be "nearly double"? The use of the term "nearly double" sounds rather like a man putting something into a shop window for sale and marking it at 19s. 11¾ lid.—though I do not, of course, suggest that the motive in both cases is similar.
To sum up, the critical needs of the Royal Air Force to-day are: increased recruitment, particularly of Regular and Auxiliary personnel, necessitating improved pay, improved living conditions and improved prospects of getting a job on leaving; continued support of the aircraft industry, especially priority in the release of raw materials to enable production to be accelerated; and also actual preparation for increased production in the event of war. It cannot be too often repeated that the safety of our country depends more than ever now on the Royal Air Force. It is the air striking force alone which can provide the real deterrent to a potential enemy; and, should we again become involved in war, our immediate survival will, as in 1940, depend mainly on the strength, efficiency and readiness of our Fighter Command and its radar screen.
4.6 p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I believe I am the most junior member of your Lordships' House, and I beg your Lordships' indulgence while I make just three points during this most vital debate. I have very recently returned from service with an operational regiment of the Army, and I am at present in the Territorial Army, so I hope that the three points which I wish to make, representing the point of view of a very junior officer, may be of use in your Lordships' debate to-day.
Up to nine months ago, on the autobahn from Hamburg to Lubeck, on

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a stretch of road closed for twenty miles, vehicles were parked bonnet to tailboard and side by side, four abreast. That makes eighty miles of vehicles, equivalent to the distance from here to Margate. A large percentage of those vehicles were extraordinarily costly armoured fighting vehicles, and they were all parked there for some four and a half years. The same thing was happening in dumps all over England. There were three instances of which I have knowledge. One was at Great Missenden; the second was at an aerodrome close to York, and the third was at Slough. Again, thousands of armoured fighting vehicles were there rotting in the elements. If some of your Lordships were to go round some of those dumps, or happened to go now to that autobahn at Hamburg, you would notice that the tanks had disappeared. If you were to make inquiries about those vehicles, you would find that they have been "b.l.r.-ed."—which means. "back loaded rear," to be reconditioned and repaired for reissue to other regiments and to units going overseas. My own regiment received seventy-five Cromwell tanks straight off the autobahn. They were almost brand new but, needless to say, they were in a filthy condition. Practically none of them worked until we had spent many man-hours cleaning them, pulling them to pieces and putting them together again.
A great many of your Lordships may know the Cromwell tank well, and may swear by it. It may be that a great many more have sworn at it! However, the Cromwell tank was an excellent tank. During the Second World War, it was second only to the German Royal Tiger tank. Nevertheless, this tank is now out of date. It has a 75 mm. gun which is, of course, far too small. Furthermore, in its hydraulic turret mechanism there is a very serious defect known as back-lash, so that my regiment, which is an operational regiment, is training National Service men on a completely out-of-date machine. Furthermore, other regiments more completely equipped than we were are now out in Germany, and they also are using these out-of-date Cromwell tanks and many other such vehicles.
There is another tank on the market, so to speak. That is the Centurion. So
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far, it has been available only in small numbers, but it is the latest design of tank. In fact, I think one might call it a sort of "push button" tank. It has a gun on it that will knock the ace out of the ace of spades at 3,000 yards in two shots. It may or may not be a good tank, but the designer left out of account the lap gunner, or co-driver. Many of my noble friends will remember that in a tank crew the lap gunner or co-driver is the vital man. When things are getting pretty hot, he is the man who brings up the brew of tea; and furthermore, when everything seems wrong, he is the man whose extra muscles enable a track-pin to be extracted or changed. I have been told by a certain squadron-leader now in Germany, who is acquainted with this very costly and beautiful machine, that it is a physical impossibility to fight and maintain these tanks in active service conditions. Of course, that has not been tried; that is only what one tank man who has this tank under his command says about it, and it may be true or it may not. Are tanks really going to come into the next war? If they are, obviously it is vital to us in the Armoured Corps to know that some new form of tank which has the best type of gun, the best armour and, furthermore, the best in fireproof engines, is somewhere just around the corner. We hope it is. If, on the other hand, tanks are no good in war, if we are not going to use a tank and it will merely be a matter of pressing a button to let off an atom bomb, why do we spend a great amount of man-hours and money on producing the Centurion tank and other tanks which are completely out of date?
That brings me to the question of manpower. In the Army to-day we have a great many officers many of whom are highly experienced, but a great many more are very inexperienced. There are also a certain number of sergeant-majors and old soldiers. But the backbone of the British army has completely disappeared. That man is the troop sergeant or, as the infantry people will say, the platoon sergeant. He has gone, and where can he be brought back from? The men who are appointed up to the rank of sergeant in these days—and this is not a slight to them—are those who some five or six years ago were possibly only lance-corporals. Without the equivalent of a

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proper troop sergeant or platoon sergeant, how can we fight? As has been pointed out earlier in this debate, we have the numbers but they are made up of National Service men. Again, as many of my noble friends will bear out, it takes two years to make a useful tank man; it will take a year-and-a-half to make a good all-round infantry soldier. Therefore fifteen months of National Service, of indifferent training on out-of-date equipment, cannot possibly go half way to make either. From what can be seen in the training of regiments, I think I can say that the man-power situation is not one about which we can be very pleased.
My third point concerns the Territorial Army. We in the Territorial Army are a reserve of enthusiastic volunteers from highly trained regiments, individuals who can be used by the Regular Army. I ask His Majesty's Government to give the Territorial Army the complete support that it needs to carry out this rôle. But we must have support not only from His Majesty's Government, but also from the Regular Army. At present we lack drill halls. Those we have are totally inadequate. Our equipment is out of date. We train on armoured cars or any other cast-offs that may be about. The permanent staff is too small in number. In regard to the permanent staff we have, I admit that the Regular Army have done us very well. They have most generously sent their best N.C.O.s and some of their best officers. But we still need more if we are to get our numbers trained. A little incident such as this will possibly illustrate my point. You might wish to take out an armoured car for an evening's training, but you have to choose between taking out three men to-night, to teach them how to drive, or going to camp the next week-end. It is one of the two, because you have not enough petrol to do both. That is fact. The other day another small incident occurred. I had to lend my squadron my own paint sprayer so that they could paint a couple of armoured cars to put in a local horse show. We must have support from His Majesty's Government and the Regular Army if we are to make a success of our rôle as a Territorial Army.
In conclusion, I should like briefly to run over my three points again. First
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of all, are tanks going to be standard equipment in the next war? If so, have we a real tank that is of some good to the Armoured Corps, should war break out? If tanks are not going to be used, why are we now spending such a great deal of money and man-hours on producing tanks? Secondly, will officers and men be able to get adequate training in the use of these complex machines with which they will have to fight should another war break out? Thirdly, we in the Territorial Army must have complete support from His Majesty's Government and from the Regular Army if we are to carry on our rôole as a tactical reserve to the Regular Army.
4.18 p.m.
LORD HAMPTON: My Lords, I am particularly glad that it falls to my lot to congratulate the noble Earl on his maiden speech. His was the sort of forthright, straight-frog-the-shoulder speech which it is very refreshing to hear in your Lordships' House, and I hope that this is not the last time by many occasions that he will address us.
I am not one of those who believe that a war is inevitable. No doubt to-day's proceedings and what has led up to them, in the Press and so forth, will be freely interpreted in the State controlled Press of various countries we wot of as "warmongering." "a prelude to aggression." and much else besides. But this will not deter us in spite of our difficulties, both here and abroad, from showing—if I may use a colloquialism—that we can still "pack a punch behind the sparring." Sparring, I suppose, is what we may say we have been doing for all too long. But if, unhappily, we should find ourselves again at war, although its approach may be comparatively gradual, its actual onslaught will probably be violent, without any or certainly not much warning. I imagine that, from an early stage of hostilities, we should have to face the dropping of sabotage parties all over the country, possibly fifth column activities, and even large-scale attempts at airborne landings with the same purpose in view.
Recently, in one way or another, we have heard a good deal about the reorganisation of Civil Defence, and here I should like to ask when we can expect a Bill to be forthcoming on that most important matter. But, so far as I am aware, no mention has yet been made

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with regard to a possible resurgence of the Home Guard. Your Lordships will remember that it was well after the beginning of the recent war that this force came into a somewhat haphazard and hastily contrived being. Your Lordships will agree that although this great body of volunteers never actually had to repel an enemy yet they fully justified their existence, and it may even be that the very fact that they did exist played no small part in the enemy's decision against invasion. I need hardly remind your Lordships of the great advantages of a force of this nature. In the first place—and this, in these days, is very important—it was probably the most inexpensive Army we have ever had in the long history of our country. It enabled practically every corner of our Islands to be watched and guarded by men who were intimately acquainted with the ground over which they might have to fight. That is an advantage which is denied to any other conceivable body of troops. It enabled men who were too old to offer their services to the Fighting Forces, or those who had to be retained in reserved occupations, to take part, if called upon, in the active defence of their country. It cooperated admirably with, and complemented, the Civil Defence Services.
Beyond all this—and I submit that this is a very important point indeed—the rebirth of the Home Guard could be brought about now with far greater rapidity than in the case of its first formation, because we have at hand—at least I hope we have—all the experience gained as to such matters as sectors, battalion areas, local defence schemes, strong points, personnel and so on. Added to this is the fact that in many districts Home Guards have kept in touch with each other through the formation of old comrades' associations, rifle clubs and social meetings. I myself am in touch with many. If the call for the services of these men went out again, I am convinced that it would be answered with the same enthusiasm, the same undefeated spirit as on the last occasion.
What I am concerned with this afternoon is to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have given—or, if not, whether they will give—consideration to the rebirth of the Home Guard, in case of need, as a definite and indispensable
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part of our defence scheme. If the decision is—as I hope it will be and as I think it ought to be—in the affirmative, I submit that plans for this rebirth should be laid now, so that they will be ready to operate immediately, or even before, the actual necessity arises. As I have pointed out, we already have much valuable experience both as to what to do and, what is perhaps even more important, what to avoid doing in a force of this nature. Perhaps I shall be forgiven if I venture to suggest, from my own past experience, some of the things which I think we should avoid. I am a great believer in the volunteering spirit, which so firmly laid the foundations of the original L.D.V., but I also believe that in a time of national emergency every able-bodied man and woman should be liable to serve the country in the capacity most suited to his or her station and attainments. I believe this latter view to be the more important consideration of the two, and I should like to see legislation embodying that view introduced at an early date.
The second point I would stress is that there should be no time lag, as there was at the start of the L.D.V., in the issue of uniforms, arms and equipment. If we ever have another Home Guard they will not want a repetition of arm-bands or denims or pikes, or of having to shoot bottles of phosphorous out of drain pipes. Nor, I imagine, will this be necessary. This leads me to ask the noble Viscount who is to reply to the debate on behalf of the Government whether he can give the House any assurance—in very general terms, of course—as to the reserve of uniforms, weapons, ammunition and equipment generally that are immediately available for defence purposes. And by weapons I am not referring only to rifles and Sten guns, though we should have been fortunate to have them early in the last war. A new Home Guard, if it comes into being, will require more in the way of up to date equipment at the start than it achieved at the end on the last occasion. The third of the many things to be avoided would, I suggest, be the dangerous loss of mobility which we all experienced in the past, owing to lack of trucks and sufficient field wireless. All these things, and many others, can be avoided by taking thought and planning well in advance.

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Of course, one realises that the position in which we find ourselves to-day involves a very delicate balance in the utilisation of our available man-power. It is a problem which would tax the ingenuity of any Administration, of any Party. It is the old story of a tug-of-war between conflicting necessities, but, somehow, we have got to solve it—and solve it quickly. I submit, from past experience, that a resurgence of the Home Guard would do something—I do not put it higher than that—to reconcile the necessities of production and defence. The strain of the dual life upon the individual was at times great. One saw that. But I have yet to learn that efficiency was thereby greatly impaired. I hope that in saying what I have said, I have not been crying for the moon. If we are not to have a Home Guard, however, I shall be grateful if the noble Viscount who is to speak for the Government will inform us what, in the contemplation of His Majesty's Government, and their Service advisers, is to take its place.
4.27 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, on September 14, the noble Viscount the Leader of the House made what was undoubtedly a very important Statement with regard to Defence. But it seemed to me, listening, that it was extremely vague. It referred, of course, to the slow-up of demobilisation, and the noble Viscount spoke of the R.N.V.R. In the last war, the R.N.V.R. provided 80 per cent. of the officer strength of the Royal Navy. If the Royal Navy is ever called on again in a future war it is certain that the active list of the Navy will not be able to provide the entire officer personnel which will be required. The Navy will also require as many ratings as it can get from the Reserve Forces, including the R N.V.R. It seems to me that that makes the subject of the R.N.V.R. one of vital importance. It is true that the Government have said that they are going to bring the R.N.V.R. up to strength. How in the world are they going to do it?
In the first place, if one tries to recruit for the R.N.V.R. to-day the sort of men who were recruited before the war, one is told that they are earmarked for National Service, and are not available. The net result is that the R.N.V.R. Divisions today have hardly any men at all, and are not likely to have for the next two years.
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It seems to me that there is only one thing to do, and I would like to make this suggestion to the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty. I, and a good many others, I know, would appreciate it very much if the First Lord could deal with this suggestion in his reply. Would it not be possible to grant exemption from National Service to men who sign on to serve in the R.N.V.R. for a period of not less than five years and who undertake to carry out all obligations and training laid down? It seems to me that unless some step of that sort is taken there is not a hope of recruiting ratings for the R.N.V.R. in any appreciable numbers for at least another two years.
I also want to refer to the Force known as the Royal Naval Volunteer Supplementary Reserve. This consisted before the last war, and is composed now, of yacht owners, who in many cases have master's tickets. There is a list of those prepared to come forward and join this Reserve, and I understand the strength stands at about what it was before the war—namely, about 3,000. It was decided during the war that on being called up these officers were to receive a minimum of three months' training. It so happened that I was employed in the appropriate department of the Admiralty during the war, and I know what I am talking about when I tell your Lordships that the average amount of training it was possible to give these officers was four and a half days. The reason was that these men were so extraordinarily valuable. They already knew their navigation backwards, and it was essential that as soon as they could be fitted out with uniform and railway tickets they should be drafted to sea.
I submit that if it was necessary last time, it will be equally necessary if the need ever comes again. It seems to me that the R.N.V.S.R. is a vital Force. I saw a great deal of the work of many individuals belonging to this Force during the war, and I assure your Lordships that some of these officers were the finest men I have ever struck in all my time in the R.N.V.R.—and, indeed, in the Navy itself. They performed highly responsible jobs with the greatest thoroughness, vigour and responsibility, and it is impossible to praise them highly enough. No training is laid down for this Force. Most of the men who belong

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to it to-day served during the war, but it is impossible for them to keep themselves up-to-date and efficient unless we give them some form of training, even if entirely on a voluntary basis. Before the war the condition was laid down that they were to have no training and were merely to be names on a list. They would not have been trained but for the noble and gallant Earl, Lord Cork and Orrery, who was at that time Commander-in-Chief Portsmouth. He made it possible for them to get sonic sort of training, which was of the greatest possible value when the war broke out. I beg the First Lord to give consideration to the question of the training of this Supplementary Reserve. If we want these men, we must give them some sort of training. If we do not, it is a damper on efficiency. It makes them feel they are not wanted. On the other hand, if we make them feel they are wanted they will become a most valuable recruiting agency. They are as keen as mustard. If they were not, they would not belong to the Force, as there are certainly no other inducements.
In the Printed Paper Office to-day I obtained a Paper which gives the numbers of the Army, Navy and Air Force and the state of recruiting. Why should it not also refer to the Auxiliary Services? Why should it not also include the Territorial Army, the R.A.F.V.R. and the R.N.V.R.? That would be of greatest value to noble Lords interested in these Forces and I suggest that they might be included. There are one or two other questions in connection with the R.N.V.R. which I have been asked to put to the First Lord by another noble Lord who has not been able to stay for this debate. He wants to know what is the attitude of the Admiralty towards the Light Coastal Force, and what facilities will be granted for training. If we are to have a Light Coastal Force in another war, as almost certainly we shall, it seems to me essential that there should be a certain amount of training. I would point out that most of the men who served in the Light Coastal Force in the last war will be too old for the same service in another war. Therefore this matter is of considerable importance. My noble friend also asked a question about the recommissioning of ships, with which I will deal later on.
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Let me ask now the First Lord about the Navy proper. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House said that we were aware of the general plan on which the Government were working. We have had repeated debates in this House, but so far as the Navy is concerned I confess that I am still completely in the dark as to what sort of Navy is being aimed at. The Navy in the next war will have to deal, in the first instance, with submarines. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has pointed out to your Lordships that the anti-submarine craft of the last war are rendered completely obsolete by subsequent development of the submarine. This means that the strain of all anti-submarine work is bound to fall on destroyers, and the destroyer is already a hopelessly overworked craft, as all those who have seen the Navy in action know. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, also pointed out how many destroyers have been sold. Can the First Lord assure us that our reserve of destroyers is sufficient? I have seen a statement in the papers that the Navy is shaking the moth-balls out of various destroyers which are moored in harbours round the coast, at Harwich and the like. If the First Lord cannot give us the actual numbers, perhaps he can give us the approximate strength of the destroyer flotillas he is aiming at.
What strength is the Navy aiming at in aircraft? A week or two ago I saw at Spithead a large aircraft carrier and I asked why it was there. I was told that it was lying there because the Admiralty are trying to make up their minds whether or not to keep her. Cannot we be told a little about the Admiralty's policy with regard to aircraft carrier strength? It is obvious that the aircraft of the Royal Navy are just as important as aircraft ashore. Can the First Lord tell us what carriers we have, and whether we have a full complement of aircraft ready for them, and a full complement of trained personnel? I do not know whether the First Lord will feel it possible to answer these questions to-day, but I hope he will answer them at an early date. Another matter with which the Navy will have to deal is the question of raiders. During the last war, between 1939 and 1942, raiders were responsible for sinking 733,000 tons of our shipping. A very large number of cruisers are required to find one raider; during the war as many as twenty were

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employed to hunt down one single German raider. Can the First Lord give us an indication of what the cruiser strength of the Navy is to be? He will remember what Lord Jellicoe said about our cruiser strength; and he will know of the various utterances which have been made by other competent authorities since then.
With regard to defensively armed merchant ships, are the new ships which are being built to-day being strengthened to carry guns? If they are not, it will mean laying up the ships for a period of several months while the necessary strengthening is carried out. Also on the point of defensively armed merchant ships, are the guns available? Have they been "pickled"—or whatever the modern Navy does with things that are not wanted immediately? There is another question I would like to ask. I know that I shall not receive a detailed answer; in fact I do not want the First Lord to give it. But can the First Lord give us an assurance that the oil fuel stocks of the Royal Navy have been kept up in full to the necessary amount? I do not want to know what they are, but I would like an assurance on that point. I have said all that I want to say. I would again press the First Lord to consider the suggestion that I made in regard to the R.N.V.R. (that suggestion was made while he was out of the House, but no doubt it will have been brought to his notice) and the suggestion in regard to the R.N.V.S.R. I believe those two points are of some importance, and if anything can be done about them it will in each case give great encouragement to a body of men upon whom the Royal Navy must depend in the event of another war.
4.42 p.m.
LORD BLACKFORD: My Lords, if indeed it is to be our sad fate to become once more an advanced military base and a permanent aircraft carrier moored off the coast of Europe, then obviously it is up to us to take the earliest possible steps to ensure the safety of that base. The Foreign Secretary in another place two or three days ago was describing the usual preliminaries of Communist warfare—the fermenting of unofficial strikes, the political assassinations, the encouragement of civil strife, the sabotage of factories, and so on. We see that going on
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everywhere at the present time. It has gone on in Palestine, Burma, Indonesia, and Malaya—the same pattern on each occasion. If we were to be involved here in a war with a Communist Power, it is certain that a Fifth Column would reveal itself in this country. Of course, we all hope—and perhaps believe—that a Fifth Column here would not be anything like so powerful or so dangerous as it is in other countries; but it would certainly exist. We shall be very foolish to shut our eyes to that certainty and not to take proper precautions against it.
Therefore, if I were in charge of affairs, the first thing I would do by way of defence at the present time would be to bring the Police Forces all over the country up to strength. I understand that the Metropolitan Police Force is 6,000 under strength, out of a total complement of 24,000; and I am told that much the same proportions apply to the Police Forces all over the country. The members of the Police Forces are the people best qualified and trained to deal with the sort of menace which I have described. The Police Force, unfortunately, is unpopular at the moment because the pay and conditions are not so good as can be found in other walks of life. But there is a Committee, sitting under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Oaksey, dealing with this matter, and their deliberations are almost finished. If, as is popularly believed, their recommendations are for a considerable improvement in the policeman's lot, then I hope those recornmendations will be considered and put into operation by the Government at the earliest possible moment, so that we may raise our Police Forces throughout the country to their full complement.
With regard to Civil Defence, we are told that a Bill will be presented in another place early in the new Session. I am very glad to hear it. But, at the same time, it is rumoured that it will be based on the voluntary system. The voluntary system, of curse, has had many merits in the past, but I submit that it is not suited to the present conditions of total national warfare. The, voluntary system has three great defects. The first is a psychological one—namely, that the good-hearted volunteer does much more than his duty to the country, whereas the bad hearted slacker

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is allowed to get away with doing much less than his duty to the country. In my submission, in these days of total war and national danger we all ought to be compelled to do our fair share of duty to the country. The second disadvantage of the voluntary system is that a sufficient number of volunteers are not obtained until the emergency has occurred, because people are unwilling to listen to an unpleasant truth, and, therefore, they do not come forward until the danger has actually "hit them in the eye."
Surely, a good example of that was the formation of the Home Guard in June, 1940. I remember walking round to their temporary headquarters in Prince Consort Road, London, to offer my services. I was at once presented with 1,500 enrolment forms from three Metropolitan Police Divisions, which were supplemented during the next three or four days by 4,000 or 5,000 more, and I was told to get on with it and form a Home Guard out of them. No doubt others throughout the country had the same experience. That is an example of the inefficiency which is caused by the voluntary system, when volunteers come forward only after the emergency has occurred. The third disadvantage of the voluntary system is that volunteers rush to the popular organisations and avoid the unpopular ones, so that you get an unbalanced result. For example, fire watching was a very unpopular job in the last war, and there were few volunteers for it. Had fire watching been properly organised, at any rate in London, it is quite certain that three-quarters of the damage done to the City of London on December 29, 1940, would have been avoided. The fact was that three-quarters of the buildings had no fire watchers and, therefore, there was nothing to prevent the incendiaries from doing their work.
This is not the time to go into the question of Civil Defence in detail, but I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, had to say about the resurgence of the Home Guard. I should like to see the electorate of the country enrolled under the one generic term "Home Guard," which is a very fine title. The authorities should start from there to parcel them out to the specific duties which may fall to their lot in the event of war. Surely, the essential thing is to
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be prepared this time, so that each one of us—every man and every woman—knows what he or she is expected to do, and how to do it if the emergency occurs. That is my first point.
My second and only other point is concerned with the professional Army. In March last another place voted the Army Estimates. I have brought them along with me, "for greater accuracy," as is sometimes said from the Chair. The amount voted for the Army was a net total of £305,000,000. That is equal to about 3s. of the Income Tax, or considerably more than the whole beer duty—according to which thought appeals to your Lordships most. Under Vote A was the number of men voted, and, if I may, I would like to read to you those figures. They are:
"Garrisons outside Europe: British Troops, 114,100; Colonial and Gurkha troops, 151,000."
That is a total of 265,000 men. One would have thought that they would be sufficient to take care of a small war in Malaya, without our having to call upon any troops in this country. The document goes on:
"Garrisons inside Europe: British Troops, 420,300 men; Polish Troops, 30,000 men"—
odds and ends, 2,500 men; making a total of 452,800 men. Add those two figures together and it comes to something like 712,000 soldiers, voted only in March, at the cost of £305,000,000. Yet at the time of the Army Estimates an article appeared in the New Statesman to the effect that our striking force was only two Infantry Divisions and a couple of Tank Brigades. Although questions were asked in another place on the Army Estimates, not once but two or three times, the Minister would not deny that statement. Of course, very properly he would not say what our strength was, but he would not deny the statement, and one must conclude that "silence gives consent."
The other day we sent one Guards Brigade and one Armoured Regiment out to Malaya—a total fighting strength of considerably less than 4,000 fighting men. Yet I read in the Sunday Times that that constituted the bulk of our strategic Reserve. The Foreign Secretary, in the course of the same speech to which I referred, said words to this effect: "We are giving our maximum help to Malaya."

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All I can say about that is that there must be something radically wrong somewhere. I ask your Lordships' House: What value are we getting for £305,000,000 and 712,000 men, plus about half that number of civilians employed in servicing them, if the most we can do is to produce a striking force of two Divisions, a couple of Tank Brigades, and a miserable little collection to go out to Malaya, when one would have thought that the Colonial troops and the garrisons abroad were easily sufficient to deal with that trouble on their own account? Some colour is lent to my remarks by the excellent maiden speech delivered by the noble Earl on my left, who drew attention to the inefficiencies which came under his personal notice as a junior officer stationed in Germany.
I do not wish to go further into this matter, except to urge upon the Government that there must be something radically wrong with our Army if we pay these huge sums of money to these large numbers of men and we get such an absolutely miserable result. I would be inclined to suggest that far too many men are enrolled in the non-combatant Services. If you go about the streets of London and look at the shoulder lettering of soldiers you find "R.E.M.E.," "R.A.O.C." and "R.A.S.C." to such an extent that if you come across a fighting man you almost stop and look at him as a rare bird. Moreover, I suggest that as the noble Earl himself pointed out, our trained men are far too much employed on training National Service men without adequate result. As he says, an efficient soldier of any sort cannot be made in twelve months. As I understand it, the average regiment gets the man for only about nine months, because he spends two-and-a-half months or more in some preliminary camp learning to salute, to right and left turn, and that sort of thing.
I do not wish to delay your Lordships longer, because one cannot go into detail on this large question in a short speech; but I do urge upon the Government that things are not right with the Army; that we, the ration, are not getting anything like value, for either our money or our man-power, and that it would be far better if we were back in the days of 1914 when, for about one-tenth of the cost, we were able, within three weeks of the outbreak of war, to put six Divisions and one Cavalry Division of the highest
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quality in the field, and another Division within a month. In 1939 we put five Divisions and an Armoured Division in the field in much the same time. Could we do that to-day, at four or five times the cost that we paid in 1939? The answer, evidently, is "No." It is up to the Government to explain why it is "No," and to put matters right at the earliest possible moment.
4.57 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I want to speak very briefly this afternoon on radio equipment, which is vital, not only to my own Service, the Royal Air Force, but to the Royal Navy and the Army. I want to speak also of its serviceability. By radio equipment, I mean both radiolocation and communications. The radio equipment which was developed during the war is a very complicated piece of apparatus, and as such it needs a good engineer to deal with its service faults. Indeed, it needs not only a good engineer, but a good engineer who has had a specialist course in particular types of equipment. I do not think anyone will dispute the fact that there is a great lack of men of such calibre in the Services to-day. I hope that His Majesty's Government will do all that is possible (and here I support the noble Lord, Lord Newall, who has already made the point) to keep our specialist men in the Services and to recruit specialist ex-Service men into the Services.
Now the long-term view has also been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Newall, in regard to the planning and development necessary to produce such equipment. I would like for a moment to consider the short-term view and what would happen if we found ourselves in an emergency in a short period of time. We have had statements that destroyers are coming out of moth balls and aircraft are coming out of their cocoons—if they have been cocooned, as they cocoon them in the United States. But what is happening to the radio equipment, which is so vital? It is taken out of the aircraft and put into store. Very few stores are ideal, although some may be under A.I.D. inspection or the equivalent inspection in the Army and Navy. I consider that the majority of stores are damp and ill-looked after, and I think—in fact I am confident—that most of this equipment, if it came out, would

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become unserviceable in a very short time. It is obviously impossible for the Services to take out all this equipment, examine it and replace the necessary parts, as they have not even enough competent engineers to look after their own equipment. There is a precedent for the suggestion I am about to make, in that, as your Lordships may be aware, the public address equipment on aerodromes, which is so vital to fighter aerodromes, is maintained under contract by the manufacturers. I suggest to the Government that the logical and practical thing to do would be to put a contract out to tender among the radio manufacturers who made the equipment during the war, to examine and service it and put it back into store.
It is not only the difficult or complicated components that give trouble. When sets are operated they have to be connected to some source of electric supply. If your Lordships will forgive my going into detail, I would point out that the majority of connector plugs were made with a zinc alloy base. These in storage deteriorate and corrode—although I am aware that the type of plug recently developed does not do so nearly so badly. I have brought here to-day two examples to illustrate what happens and I propose to give them to the noble Viscount after the debate. In one of these the thread has entirely disappeared; in the other case, the die-casting has "grown" so that it is impossible to fit the plug to the socket. I hope the noble Viscount can assure the House that every effort has been made to find out what replacements are necessary. It must never be said that we put our Forces into battle and, at the same time, undermined their glorious morale by giving them equipment that had been inadequately looked after.
5.2 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this debate has ranged over a much wider area than the Statement which was originally made; but, with respect, I do not see how anything else could have happened, since we are living in a time of very great urgency indeed. In the Statement on Defence it is stated that progress has already been made with plans for the reorganisation of the existing Civil Defence Organisation. That part of the State-
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ment has not been fully dealt with to-day; and I am informed, particularly by people in Scotland, that they have no knowledge of any plans having been made. I should be grateful if this point could be dealt with by the noble Viscount.
The Government appear to rest their policy substantially on two points, one being research, and the other National Service. I think the time has come when we have to put less reliance on research. With that in mind I should like to quote to your Lordships some words which Sir Henry Tizard uttered at the recent meeting of the British Association. Speaking of science and technology, he said, as reported in The Times, that:
"What was needed in this country was not general expansion of research, and certainly not the expansion of Government research remote from everyday industry, but to apply what was already known."
I submit that that applies in much greater force in regard to the Services than in regard to industry. Certainly in the Air Force the gap between what is known and the equipment of the Service has been far too wide—and never wider than to-day.
The other point on which the Government seem to rest their policy is National Service. I think it is fair to read what the Chief of the Air Staff said on this subject nearly six months ago. Lord Tedder was reported in The Times of April 23 in these terms:
"Speaking 18 months ago, he had described the situation of the Royal Air Force as dangerous because it was not getting in men in the right quality and quantity to take the place of those being demobilised.
"Maintaining and operating modern air defence called for high technical skill and experience, requirements which took years to attain. The situation now is more dangerous than in 1946 because more men had been released and the compensating flow into the air defence forces was inadequate. Whether or not the world situation added urgency to this problem it was not for him to say. One thing was clear, in world affairs power politics were still a very real part of the international code and weakness aroused contempt and invited aggression. Some seemed to think that conscription was the complete answer to national defence, but when an organisation was equipped with material scientifically, technically, and in its operational performance far ahead of the most advanced material in use for civil purposes, men whose training and service was limited to 12 months could only have a limited rôle."
I understand that the strength of the Royal Air Force by next spring will be about 226,000. It is known that some of these men are lent elsewhere—some, for

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instance, are lent to the Ministry of Civil Aviation. It is also known that quite a number of men are not properly trained. In fact, simple mathematics will show that, by the end of this year, something of the order of 50 per cent. of Royal Air Force personnel will not be trained. The noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, pointed out that there is undoubtedly a gap in the Royal Air Force at the present time of precisely the same type as that described in the article which I have read, a gap of men who formed a basis of experience and discipline before the war. We are discussing the matter, it seems to me, with much less information than we had before the war. We at least knew then what was the front line strength, and how many squadrons there were. I do not think these facts are known at the present time. It is difficult in this debate to keep away from the long-term problem, but what we should be debating to-day is the short-term problem, which the noble Lord, Lord Newall, in a speech which I think was of very great importance, showed to be one of great urgency. How are we to get the technical people, who are really the backbone of any technical service, back into the Service?
There is another point to which I would draw special attention. I am informed that at the present time there is a shortage of air crews, and there is difficulty in getting volunteers for this duty. Frankly, I am rather appalled by this. I feel that there is a kind of game of "Snakes and Ladders" which young men are called upon to play if they wish to enter for air crew duty. If the matter were properly put to young men at the present time, I do not believe they would be unwilling or reluctant to go in for duties of such great importance. A further matter which fills me with misgiving is that the training school at Halton is not as full as it should be. Before the war a young man thought it was a great step in his career if he could get to Halton. Why is there difficulty now? Is it a question of the conditions of service? I am informed that it is now the intention to commission, if not all, at any rate the greater part of air crews. I would like confirmation that that is so. I shall be glad if it is so, but it does imply certain other things.
In the first place, I submit with great respect, it involves a greater degree of
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officer training in the Royal Air Force than exists at the present time. Further, as a concomitant of that, another determined effort must be made to reduce the mobility of postings which exists now and which has always existed in the past. I am fully aware that this matter has been tackled before on many occasions, but I would commend to the noble Viscount who is to reply the suggestion that the matter be dealt with again. I. refer to the great frequency of postings, by which it is impossible for men to be retained in their particular crew a sufficient length of time.
We have already dealt with the question of pay and conditions of service. There is one question I should like to ask on the subject of prospects. This is a point which the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, has frequently brought up and to which he has never received a satisfactory reply. One of the most important points for the Service to-day is to ensure the future prospects of the men in the Service. If they are assured on that ground, they will come forward with greater willingness. There are several ways in which this can be done. In the first place, I would like to refer to the advertisement which states that forty-three trades in the Army are recognised as qualifying for trade union membership. If that is correct—and I have no reason to doubt that it is correct—I should like to be assured that there are no difficult conditions which cannot be fulfilled. This recognition is probably standard for the country; different sections of different units do not demand different conditions. There is a further point I should like to raise, which is a part of the scheme advanced by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. It is that there should be some link between the nationalised services of this country and the Armed Forces, so that pension rights can run from the time a ma n enters the Service to the time that he leaves the Service. It would make a tremendous difference to the outlook of a man if he were reasonably assured that he would obtain employment when he left the Service.
I will deal for a moment with the question of equipment. I should like to ask this question. Is there such a thing in this country as an Industrial General Staff? I notice that in the 1947 Report, reference was made to the Joint War Pro-

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duction Staff. There is no reference to that in 1948. I do not know if this body exists. Is there any body to-day which is examining how things can be produced and, above all, which things cannot be produced? Is there anyone who is seeing that all of the new types of equipment are not made in one place, as I understand was the case in 1939, when all crankshafts were produced in one street in Sheffield? At one fell swoop the entire production line could have been destroyed. I am certain that this is of the utmost importance, not only to the Royal Air Force but also to the other Services. I do not press the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, for numbers in the way of aircraft, because I do not think they matter very much. I do not press for numbers of squadrons or units. What matters in an Air Force is not the number of aircraft or the number which fly, but the number which can be kept flying, rooted, if I may say so, in the industrial strength of this country. To put it one way, the maintenance of the strength is a question of amperage rather than voltage. I realise that it would be extremely difficult to ascertain these figures, but, none the less, we are intensely interested in them.
I have one more question, to which again I do not expect an answer at the moment. What is the spares position in regard to new aircraft? Anyone who has seen the immense "graveyards" of aircraft which exist in the Middle East and elsewhere would have this lesson of spares brought home. Are ample spares being produced and maintained? I suggest that they should be at least of the order of 40 per cent. of the whole production? I do not wish to detain your Lordships longer but I would like to add this. The Government have stated—and there is no reason to doubt it—that without exception the quality of our fighters to-day is better than that of fighters in any other part of the world. But they have not stated, and they cannot state, that the same is true of our bomber aircraft, still less of our Coastal Command aircraft which are necessarily of the greatest importance in maintaining our sea communications. Neither the initial striking force nor Coastal Command aircraft are in a satisfactory position. The most that can be said is that a bomber may be in sight. With great respect, to say, three years after the
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war, that a bomber is in sight, when we know that it takes up to four or five years to produce such a machine, is hardly good enough.
I will add only one thing. We are to-day in a situation which is materially different from that which existed before. It is essentially a clash of philosophies and, also, not only of material but of psychological weapons. The situation we are in is one in which no declaration of war can be expected. Forces are working through hatred to promote war and thereby to produce a state of chaos that will spread like a disease. That is a situation which it is essential we should seek to prevent. I submit, therefore, that our central policy must be what the Government have stated—the preservation of peace rather than the full mobilisation for war. The lesson which we can learn is the lesson which was provided to the world by the British Navy between the years 1815 and 1914. That is the lesson which the Government must bear in mind, rather than a policy of hasty mobilisation on the outbreak of war.
5.18 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, we all feel it to be most regrettable that world conditions are such that, before we have completed the run-down of the Armed Forces to peace-time strength, the deteriorating international situation requires that the measures which were announced last week by His Majesty's Government as necessary for the immediate requirements of the Armed Forces shall be taken. In my opinion, it is right that, before the end of this very short Session, this House should have the opportunity of obtaining further explanations upon that Statement. Indeed, I agree with what was said by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk—and I am not complaining—that the debate which we have had this afternoon has wandered far from that Statement. I am sure that your Lordships will sympathise with me when I tell you that my difficulty is to attempt to reply to all the questions which have been fired at me.
Ten or eleven noble Lords have taken part in this debate. I think the list which I received from the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, as a start, contained twenty-one questions. That list has been followed by others and, if record was kept of the total number of questions, it must

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number something like 100 to 120. I do not know how long your Lordships are prepared to sit this evening. Indeed, I am not going to pretend that it is possible for me to attempt to reply to all the questions which have been put to me. I find it difficult enough sometimes to deal with the questions of my own Department, but to-day we have had a variety of questions covering the three Defence Services, and many of those questions have been on points of detail which it is impossible to attempt to reply to without obtaining the necessary information.
The debate to-day has centred around very important matters. First, there is the question of man-power, which is absolutely vital to this question of Defence and about which some contradictory statements have been made. With the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and myself, the debate has been in the nature of a monopoly in favour of noble Lords opposite. He and I are the only two who are taking part in the debate from this side of the House. Before we deal fully with the question of man-power, I think we ought to consider whether or no the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to the demobilisation of the Forces was the correct one—whether we could afford it as a nation. Whatever might be said in favour of the retention of large numbers of people in the Armed Forces, they just cannot be maintained unless there is a good industrial and economic organisation providing the wherewithal for their maintenance. That is a factor which appears to have been completely forgotten in the debate this afternoon. Not a single reference was made to the economic situation. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, complained that we were slow in demobilising Service men and women from the Army, and that for two years we did nothing. I really wish he had ascertained the facts before making a statement of that kind. Then he went on to say that he agreed with a statement which was attributed to Mr. Churchill—that to have balanced Forces in this country, the nation must maintain something like 1,500,000 men in the Services.
Let us in the first place see what is the truth about demobilisation. The total programme for demobilisation between
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June 18, 1945, and December 31, 1946, covered 5,000,000 people. During that period (that is, in eighteen months), no fewer than 3,800,000 persons were demobilised. Can the Government be charged with being inefficient and neglectful in relation to the question of demobilisation? Indeed, it can be said that no country in the world which was engaged in the war was so successful as this, not only in its scheme of demobilisation but also in the scheme for the absorption of the men into industry after they had been demobilised. So successful has been the reinstatement of these men that, except during the fuel crisis of two years ago, at no time during the whole of the period between the cessation of hostilities and the present have the ranks of the unemployed, or the registered unemployed, exceeded 400,000 persons. What a contrast to conditions which existed in the haphazard, inefficient system of demobilisation of the friends of noble Lords opposite, which took place from 1921 to 1924! It is true they did demobilise from the Army, but they formed another army of 2,500,000 unemployed people in this country. Some of those people had no employment from that day until the day of their death or until the outbreak of the last war. Noble Lords just cannot chide the Government for their method of demobilisation.
Then there is the question of the nation's economy. It may be said that events on the economic front have proved that the decisions of His Majesty's Government were correct, as was clearly shown by recent statements in another place made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade. We are very pleased with those results. We realise that there must be repercussions on the supply field with the strengthening of the Armed Forces. By delaying the releases in accordance with this plan, the Armed Forces will be some 80,000 stronger than they would otherwise have been at the end of this calendar year. Much has been said about the acceleration of the supply of equipment in the three Services, and the overhauling of stocks, some of which have been depleted owing to current use whilst others are obsolete and their replacement will require the services of a number of men. But we cannot build up forces of the magnitude which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has in mind and do what

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the nation has been struggling to do for the last three years.
The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Blackford, referred to the cost of the Armed Forces. I will take the figures for the last two years. I do not want to be tied to these figures by £10,000,000 or so—I am speaking just from memory—but during the current year the cost of the Armed Forces, including research and supply, amounts to no less a figure than nearly £700,000,000; and during the last financial year it amounted to something like £900,000,000. In two years £1,600,000,000 has been spent upon the Services. My Lords, these are figures which must bring reality into our debate, because I feel that there has been a certain amount of unreality in some of the speeches to which we have listened this afternoon. Indeed, in the circumstances, I think it can be said, not only in relation to the announcement which was made last week regarding the suspending of demobilisation, but in relation to economic conditions, that there is scarcely a man or woman in Britain who does not recognise what has been done by the Government and who will not give their whole-hearted support.
The number of men who have to be retained in accordance with this decision is fairly substantial, but the period of retention is short and it is essential to have them, for they will greatly assist in the training of others. Much has been said this afternoon about training with which I entirely agree. It is absolutely essential to have these people. Here, again, as figures would show, the Army will benefit to a greater extent than the Royal Air Force, and the Air Force will benefit to a greater extent than the Royal Navy. But, as I have said, these men will form cadres to train men who will assist in the training of others. I know that complaints have been made about the difficulties with which the Services are confronted at the present time. But in any process of demobilisation after a great war there is bound to be a certain lack of balance, owing to the rapid outflow of skilled personnel and the slow build-up of trained cadres to take their place. Indeed, I could give an illustration relating to the Royal Navy
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bearing upon this, and it would apply to any large training force.
At the peak period of the war about 840,000 personnel were serving in the Navy. Over 80 per cent. were conscripts or National Service men or women. All these men and women have left the Service; indeed, a large proportion of the trained Regular serving men have left the Service. Since mention has been made this afternoon of the fact that Regular recruitment was stopped during the period of the war, I would point out that since Regular recruitment has recommenced, and in face of all that can be said about inducements to entering the Services and about conditions existing now in some of the Services, the Royal Navy has been and is at the present time recruiting twice as many men for Regular service as were recruited in any period in peace time in the past. It is these Regular recruits we want. I wish the Army and the Royal Air Force were as successful as the Royal Navy has been in this matter of Regular recruiting. But it may be said of one of those Services, at any rate, that the recruiting returns are better than they were in peace time in the past.
I agree with what was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, that the retention for an extra three months of the National Service men serving in the Forces on September 14 makes it impossible to honour the undertaking previously given, that all men who were serving on December 31, 1946, would be released by the end of 1948. The Government have not pretended to suggest otherwise, and they do not shirk responsibility for it. They certainly do not wish the Services to be blamed for this change of plan. Equally, they cannot accept that it is any fault of the Government's that has resulted in the pledge having to be broken. This situation has been brought about entirely as the result of changed world conditions.
The man-power plans for 1948, and the continuation of demobilisation resulting from them, were perfectly satisfactory in the light of the international situation when they were drawn up. Those plans would have enabled the Services to carry out the tasks laid upon them but for the increase in international tension, a factor outside the control of His Majesty's Government. New factors

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like this have laid a fresh burden on the Armed Forces, necessitating a revision of the man-power plans. It was essential, as an immediate measure, to strengthen the trained element in the Services and the only fair and effective way in which this could be done was by calling for a sacrifice in the national interest by the men best suited to do the job. It must be recognised, however, that an emergency of the kind with which we are faced at the moment demands emergency measures, and it is the Government's confident hope that the men concerned—I repeat this—will not blame the Services for what has happened, and will recognise that the undertaking given to them would have been kept had it been possible and had this emergency not arisen.
I have noticed with regret that in some of the speeches made this afternoon there has been a suggestion that the Government's plans for manning the Services have not worked out successfully in practice. I cannot accept this view. There is no doubt that the general defence plan for 1948 was working well until the recent change in international circumstances occurred. Reference has already been made to the unexpected outbreak of violence in Malaya, the demands of the Berlin airlift and the continuation of some of the occupation commitments which it had been hoped would disappear more quickly than they have done. Despite these factors, the flexibility of the Government's defence plans has enabled these emergencies to be covered without further calls on national manpower at a time when it was vital that these should be avoided. Noble Lords will be aware—and I am anxious to make this point—that the extension of National Service for a number of National Service men cannot be brought about entirely by methods of this kind. For some time a number of men have been retained beyond their normal release dates under the military necessities clause of the Act. Indeed, the Royal Navy itself has made full use of this clause.
The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, referred in particular to the B.A.O.R. The rôle of the B.A.O.R. is not now primarily strategic. It is an occupational Force designed to maintain law and order. As such, it provides, and is intended to provide, a valuable training organisation for
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National Service men who have completed their basic training. Indeed, during the course of the passage of the National Service Act last year, pressure was brought to bear on the Government to send quite a number of National Service men to Germany for their training; and they are used there for this purpose.
Almost every speech which has been delivered this afternoon has contained some declaration to the effect that in the opinion of the speaker no real effort has been made to lay down conditions of Regular service of the type to attract the right men to our Armed Forces. I would remind your Lordships of the new pay code settlement which was announced at the end of 1945 for men and in March, 1946, for officers. This new pay code was generally well received as an important attempt to deal with what I have always regarded as the underpayment of the Services. This settlement, which was reached soon after the end of hostilities, was intended as a long-term settlement. It was to provide rates of pay which, on the face of them, were by no means unreasonable. The Minister of Defence in another place has recently expressed the doubt whether any reasonable increase in pay will necessarily lead to a marked increase in recruiting. And indeed, in the light of the experience of recruiting, I would agree with the Minister of Defence in this matter. The Minister also pointed to the many advantages of Service life—for example, Paid leave, pensions, opportunities for promotion, and so on, which have to be taken into account in any comparison between civil and Service remuneration.
He also pointed to the difficulty of increasing Service pay, in the face of a not unlimited defence budget. As your Lordships will no doubt recall, he undertook to study with his Service colleagues all the observations made during the course of that debate—and I will go further and include observations made in the course of the debate in your Lordships' House this afternoon and in the debate which will take place in another place to-morrow—and promised that if examination showed that the existing arrangements bore hardly upon members of the Forces, steps to alleviate the position would be sympathetically considered. This examination is now proceeding and certain progress has been

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made. Your Lordships will realise, however, that the Service pay codes, though simplified in 1945, are still very complex and that any revision would need the most careful consideration to avoid anomalies. Nevertheless, I am confident than an announcement on the subject may be expected early in the new Session.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Does the noble Viscount not agree that the cost of living has gone up at least 20 per cent. since then?
VISCOUNT HALL: I have not the figure in mind, but I do not think it is 20 per cent. I admit that when the new pay code was fixed, it was intended to bear relation to wages paid in industry, and it is true that there has been an increase in wages since then. I am now informed that the increase in the cost of living is 9 per cent., but I am not going to say that even that is accurate.
I have been asked by a number of noble Lords this afternoon about the progress in the provision of married quarters for Service personnel, for these, with other amenities, make for contentment. I agree that we should make a special effort to provide additional married quarters, but I need not remind your Lordships that this is no new problem for the Services. I am not excusing the situation by reminding your Lordships that even before the war, when the supply of labour and money was much easier than it is at the present time, there was already a great shortage of married quarters. Since the war, owing to the expansion of the Regular Forces and the lowering, under the revised pay code, of the ages of entitlement of married men, the demand has increased. Shortages of labour and material at home and the need to reduce expenditure overseas have inevitably limited the provision of additional married quarters. Despite all these difficulties progress is being made by new construction and by the conversion of existing buildings.
I was asked by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, whether I could give details of married quarters provided since the beginning of April this year. Since April 1 this year, more than 1,200 additional married quarters have been provided in the United Kingdom, by the means to which I refer, and before the end of the year 1948–49 it is hoped to
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provide at least another 2,500 at home and some 800 overseas. It is, of course, recognised that this is only a small instalment towards the large numbers required by the Services. As either the noble Viscount or the noble Lord, Lord Teynham said, the Service Ministers have been able to "get something out of Bevan."
A further point raised in the debate was whether there was a plan in existence in 1945 for National Service. We have heard quite a lot about planning this afternoon. The need for a regular system of National Service in peace time certainly had been considered in 1945 and a scheme had been worked out in some detail. But in the years immediately succeeding the cessation of hostilities the Government were faced with the problem of Forces of enormous size and the need for reducing them to a peace-time level. A plan was evolved in 1946 for the run-down of the Forces and was explained in the White Paper on the Call-up to the Forces for 1947–48. This was essentially and necessarily a transitional plan, and at that stage the introduction in addition of a new National Service scheme would have been an unnecessary complication. It would have been exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to apply a scheme at that stage, when the problems involved in running-down the Forces in the immediate post-war period were being tackled.
Moreover, it was essential that the Government and their expert advisers should have a clear picture of what was going to happen and what would be required during the years immediately succeeding the cessation of hostilities. The Government did not, therefore, feel justified in putting forward a scheme until the Autumn of 1946. It is necessary to remember that the existing legislation dealing with the continuation of National Service has remained in existence and does not expire until the end of this year, when the 1947 legislation will come into operation. It was made clear that the Statement of last week covers those measures which, in the opinion of the Government, would meet immediate requirements and which were practicable. The long-term requirements of the Services, to which the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, referred at the end of his speech, are, of course, being reviewed.

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A large part of the debate has centered around the Territorial Army and the Auxiliary Forces. So far as the Territorial Army is concerned, your Lordships are aware that plans have been made for some time past. I think everyone will admit that a considerable amount of very useful work has been put into the organisation, ready to launch the scheme for enlistment into the Territorials. The general planning has been carried out by a central recruiting committee of the War Office, presided over by a member of the Army Council. The Territorial Associations and Auxiliary Forces Associations have been represented upon this committee, which broadened out the purpose of the committee itself. The Secretary of State for War has taken a very active interest, and he has met representatives of the Associations on more than one occasion to deal with details. It can be said that all the suggestions which have been put forward by the Associations have been fully discussed; indeed, a large number of them have been adopted. I will give just two examples. The annual bounty for members of all the Auxiliary Forces was recently raised from £8 to £12, and arrangements have been made for a substantial portion of this increased bounty to be paid at the conclusion of the annual camps. Further, members of Auxiliary Forces can now receive pay and allowances for eight hours' duty or more, whereas, until recently, no emoluments of this kind were payable for less than a forty-eight hour duty.
It may well be that some suggestions made by the Territorial Associations have not been followed up. This was brought out very forcibly by the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, in his delightful, penetrating, useful and, if I may say so, successful maiden speech. It is seldom, in all my experience, that I have listened to a more informative and delightfully presented speech than that which was made by the noble Earl this afternoon. I am sure all your Lordships welcome him to this Chamber, and if he continues as he has commenced, he will be a very great asset. I am afraid I cannot deal in detail with all the points which he put about the Territorial organisation, but I can assure him that the matters will be considered. I will personally bring to the notice of the War Office, not only the points he brought out in relation to the Territorial
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Army, but also the matter of vehicles and particularly of tanks. I do not think the tank position is quite so bad (I am sure the noble Earl will be pleased to hear this) because there are considerable improvements in some of the new tanks which are coming out at the present time. I am sure that the War Office will be happy to give information to the noble Earl in relation to that matter. Other points which have been put in regard to the Territorial Army will, of course, be considered. I was very pleased that the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, offered his valuable experience for assisting in the recruiting campaign; indeed, I think other noble Lords this afternoon made a similar offer. I am going to make a plea that all who can should assist in this campaign, not only in regard to the Territorial Army but in relation to the other Auxiliary Services also.
I am afraid I have little to add to the Statement made last week in regard to the reorganisation of the Civil Defence Services. Matters are not quite so bad as the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, described them. It may be that he did not meet a very good public representative in the person he consulted, or who consulted him, in Scotland. I think it can be said that local authorities have been consulted, and a good deal of preliminary work has been done in relation to this question of Civil Defence. Work has been done not only in regard to organisation, but also in the preparation of legislation which may be required. I think it can be said —I cannot go any further than this—that much more will be heard about this matter in the next Session. I suppose Civil Defence can now be regarded as one of the Army's tasks, because Civil Defence is an important aspect of the old problem of home defence, which is the Army's primary task. Officers and men of the Army are now being trained in Civil Defence duties, except fire fighting. The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, raised a point in relation to Civil Defence and the Home Guard. The Civil Defence Services generally are likely to make a very heavy demand on the available manpower of the country. This is of particular importance in considering whether it will be possible to form a Home Guard. The Government are, however, fully alive to the value of the Home Guard, and its resuscitation is one of the possibilities which is now under consideration.

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It is appreciated—indeed, the point has been made in the course of the debate this afternoon—that men who served in the last war are still liable for service in the event of an emergency. I was very interested in the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, in relation to the Territorial Army and Civil Defence, and in regard to the registration of persons who served during the last war. He rightly suggested that it would be possible to register a very large number of people. But it is felt that the registration of people will not provide a single further person to deal with current commitments. If the need arises, plans have been made to call up such of the 2,000,000 men or more as will be required, at the rate at which they will be needed. Moreover, if trouble comes, I do not think that public opinion would agree that the burden should fall upon many of those who had to bear almost all the burden and dangers of the last war. The question is not quite so easy as it looks, but I can assure the noble Lord that, as a result of the suggestion which he has put this afternoon, the matter will be considered.
I think I ought to make it clear that the present recruiting campaign for the Territorial Army is being extended to the other two Services. The recruitment of the Royal Air Force Auxiliary Services is, indeed, important. While the requirements of recruits for the Naval Auxiliary Forces are on a smaller scale than those of the Army or of the Royal Air Force, it is necessary to keep the importance of the Naval Reserve Services well to the front. I think it may be said, however, that in all the circumstances, and considering the commitments and the responsibilities of the Territorial Army, neither the Royal Air Force nor the Royal Navy should complain that the Army is in first, and should be given an opportunity to begin recruiting while the position of the other two Services is being considered.
So far as the R.N.V.R. is concerned, points were brought out by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and also by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to whom I would express my thanks for the keenness which he has displayed over a very long period in relation to Naval Reserves of all kinds. The R.N.V.R. now has twelve
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main Divisions in the centres of population round our coasts. In addition to these, and the training centres of the wireless section of the Reserve, we have recently established four R.N.V.R. air squadrons, and all our R.N.V.R. units are being equipped with the most up-to-date training gear available. I am not suggesting they have it all, but we are doing our best to give them the necessary equipment.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: Does that include ships?
VISCOUNT HALL: I think it would include suitable ships. I should be quite prepared to discuss this matter with my noble friend. Although much remains to be done, we hope that it will not be long before such gear and equipment will be made available at all centres. We have already recruited 70 per cent. of our requirement of officers, and although most of the remaining vacancies are being kept open for young men as they come along, there are still a few vacancies for others. We have much further to go in regard to the recruitment of ratings, and there are vacancies in all branches. Indeed, we could maintain a very quick inrush of suitable persons into this Reserve.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, brought out a point dealing with the R.N.R. The future of this Reserve is a matter of some difficulty, which the Admiralty have been discussing with the Minister of Transport; the different interests are by no means easy to reconcile. On the one hand, the Navy can make good use in war time of the experienced officers and men of the Merchant Navy. On the other hand, it would clearly be of no service to the national interest to take away from the Merchant Navy large numbers of officers and men who would be required to man our merchantmen in time of war. The last two great wars have shown that the Merchant Navy is now an integral part of our fighting machine. The problem to be resolved, therefore, is a difficult one. But we are attempting to solve it. It is a question of priority of service, and it has to be regarded from that point of view.
Before I turn from the Auxiliary Forces to other matters, I should like to inform your Lordships that an announcement is

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likely to be made in another place tomorrow of an important new development in the Reserve policy of all three Services. This afternoon I must confine myself to the effect which this will have on the Royal Navy. It is intended to set up a new emergency Reserve consisting of men with previous service in the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines, who will volunteer for immediate recall in the event of an emergency. Such volunteers will not have to undertake any training in peace. They will be screened by the Ministry of Labour, in order to ensure that they can be released from civil employment when they are required by the Royal Navy. A similar announcement will be made in relation to the other two Services. Detailed announcements of this Reserve will be made shortly.
It is about time I said something about the Royal Air Force. Statements have recently been made about revised conditions for air crews. In 1945 a scheme was introduced by the Royal Air Force and by the Royal Navy that other ranks should be trained as pilots and observers. The scheme has not been a great success. Indeed, so far as the Royal Air Force is concerned, it can be said that it has not been a success at all. During the first war we were reasonably successful in the recruitment of naval pilot personnel. Now, as the noble Lord, Lord Newall, rightly said, a change has taken place, and I feel that it is important to point out that the changes which have taken place in the Royal Air Force have also taken place in the Royal Navy. After all, the Royal Navy is increasingly becoming a flying as well as a sailing Service. Since the end of the war, the only way in which a young man could enter the Royal Navy specifically for flying duties was as a rating pilot. The Admiralty have decided to close down this scheme, and in future to enter officers for flying duties either as pilots or as observers. Young men of eighteen or nineteen will now be able to enter the Navy for a period of eight years' service as officers, at the end of which they will receive a gratuity. But I would emphasise that there will be opportunities for a number of these young men to transfer to permanent careers as naval officers, while they are serving on these short-Service commissions. I need hardly emphasise the importance which I attach to satisfactory candidates coming
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forward to undertake what is one of the most vital of our defence requirements.
We had a very depressing debate about the Royal Navy in the autumn of last year, but during the course of this year the plans for the building up of the Navy, after the accelerated run-down of personnel announced last autumn, have been progressing as contemplated. I would like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, that the information which was contained in the explanatory Statement as to the building up of the Fleet, will, it is hoped, be carried out to the full. These plans have been pursued with full success. Concrete evidence is immediately at hand in the Autumn Cruise of the Home Fleet to the West Indies which is to start to-morrow. This will mark the biggest and most important naval cruise and exercises since the war. It will be the first time that so large and important a unit of the Royal Navy has been to the West Indies; hitherto, only smaller sections of the Fleet have visited those waters. The cruise has a very special importance, particularly at the present time, in that, as I have already indicated, it is in effect the re-emergence of the Fleet following a period of immobilisation, and offers an excellent opportunity for sea service and training of the new ships' complements.
The operational strength of the Royal Navy was set out in my explanatory Statement on the Estimates. The ships taking part in the Autumn Cruise provide a striking illustration of the progress made since last March in putting the Home Fleet on an operational basis. As noble Lords will be aware from the announcements that have been made of the naval units taking part in the cruise, some will be bound for the West Indies and others for South Africa. The opportunity will be taken to carry out useful exercises in home waters in which H.M.S. "Illustrious" and some of the smaller ships which are not included in the cruise programme itself will be taking part. These vessels will return to home ports at the conclusion of the exercises.
During the course of the debate several noble Lords asked for fuller information in relation to units of almost all the Services—information regarding trained personnel, numbers of squadrons in the Royal Air Force, and, in fact, the same amount and kind of information as was

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given before the outbreak of war. I beg noble Lords not to ask the Government to give information which no other Government in the world gives at the present time. It is very difficult to obtain the slightest information concerning any of the Services beyond the Iron Curtain. On the other hand, it is clear, from records which have been obtained from enemy countries since the war, that the generous amount of information given by this country in pre-war days enabled enemy countries to fix their Services and to realise the strength of the Forces which they were against.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: In order to remove possible misapprehension, perhaps I may be allowed to say that I do not think that the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, ever asked for the publication of this information. The point he made was that in past times the Government had taken the Opposition leaders into its confidence on matters of great national importance. He did not see why this state of affairs should not continue—and I do not see either.
VISCOUNT HALL: I quite agree that the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, did not ask for publication (I think the noble Marquess was not present at the time) but there were other noble Lords who asked for the information—and I have just pointed out the difficulty. I am afraid that the difficulty arises also in the case of equipment. The noble Lord, Lord Newall, asked for information in relation to aircraft and equipment, and matters of that kind. But, if I may say so with all due respect, it really is impossible to give any detailed information in relation to any of the Services in that way.
LORD NEWALL: So far as I recollect, I specifically made no request for numbers or details. I merely asked for an assurance that steps should be taken to see that those aircraft were produced more quickly, and plans made to produce them still more quickly if and when war occurs.
VISCOUNT HALL: I think that that assurance can be given in relation not only to necessary equipment for the Royal Air Force but for the other Services as well.
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I regret taking up so much of your Lordships' time, but there are just two points to which I should like to refer again. The first is in regard to the building up of the Royal Navy. On previous occasions I think the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, asked whether the Admiralty could not consider the intake of a larger number of National Service men. Notwithstanding the success of regular recruitment, we have discovered that as a result of a very large increase in wastage, brought about by discharges on health and compassionate grounds, we can take in additional National Service men this year and can consider a much larger intake during the course of next year.
Now I should like to touch on the material side, which is so important and about which questions have been asked. I think the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will realise that several of the points which he made are largely questions of detail on which it is impossible for me to obtain information to give out across the Table to-day. But the points will certainly be examined, and I am hoping that my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence will deal with quite a number of such, matters in the course of the debate which is taking place to-day in another place, and that the Secretary of State for War may cover other points in that debate. We are devoting particular attention to the refitting and repairing of smaller ships of the Navy. A certain proportion of the work in the Royal Dockyards since 1945 has been what is known as "repayment work." That "repayment work" is slowing down, and the whole of the equipment and personnel of the dockyards of the Royal Navy will be devoted to the refitting and repair of units of the Reserve Fleet. In addition to that, already quite a number of ships have been put to contract in private yards, so that we can speed up a number of these escort craft and other craft in the early stages of an emergency. I should like to point out, however, that we hope that we shall not unduly interfere with merchant ship repairs, which are so important.
In this connection the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, raised the question of the Mercantile Marine as a war potential. I agree that it is a very valuable war potential; but there are difficulties about steel.

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The position is not quite as bad as the noble Lord thinks it is—though I am not suggesting that shipbuilders in this country are getting all the steel they would like to have or as much as I think they ought to have. Particular attention is also being paid to the overhaul and modification of Naval aircraft in reserve, and Royal Air Force aircraft in reserve, and to increasing the output of aircraft of certain types. These are some examples of the preparations for an emergency. Other material requirements, such as stores and clothing, are being similarly dealt with. The supply measures which have been announced for the three Services are, of course, supplementary to the ordinary Service production programmes. They are primarily designed to improve the equipment situation, where necessary, and to take account of the changed circumstances. While they include the speeding up of the production of certain types of new equipment, particularly jet aircraft, they cover also the overhauling and reconditioning of all kinds of fighting vehicles for the Army, and of existing equipment and apparatus which have not been in use recently because of the progressive run-down of the Forces.
The noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, asked what steps are being taken to improve equipment supplied to the Territorial Army. Broadly, there is little differentiation between the equipment supplied to the Territorial Army and that supplied to Regular units. New equipment on trial is not given to the Territorial Army. Territorial Army units are issued with such equipment as they can store, maintain adequately and make proper use of in training. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, asked whether the Government accepted any appreciation of the plan put forward by the Chiefs of Staff and, if so, whether they have authorised action to implement it. Noble Lords will, of course, appreciate that the Government are in daily touch with their expert advisers. Appreciations of plans prepared by the Chiefs of Staff in the light of the ever-changing world situation are constantly before the Government. They are considered in the light of other general questions.
This has been a very interesting debate. I am grateful to noble Lords for the way in which they have submitted their case. In the course of the debate, many valuable
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suggestions have been made. They will be studied and where it is deemed necessary that replies should be given to some of the many questions raised, those replies will be given. It may well be, however, that in the near future there will be opportunities for further debates on the various aspects of Defence, and I have no doubt that many of the points raised to-day will be repeated then.
6.22 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, we are genuinely grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, for the trouble that he has taken in answering the many points which we put to him. We regret only that it caused a postponement by one day of his joining the Fleet. Like others of my noble friends, I hope that he will have a most successful and profitable time with the Fleet. But as I listened to the beginning of the noble Viscount's speech, it struck me that he might possibly have been re-reading Kipling's Just So stories and have come once again across the story of the crocodile who pulled the nose of the elephant child because he asked too many questions. I mention this only because I must correct the noble Viscount when he says that I asked twenty-one questions; I have looked it up and find that there were fifteen, though a large number of those questions could not possibly have an answer. However, there were three questions that I would not have left out for anything. Those were the three questions which were asked by the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, in his maiden spech which, I think I may say, was well-informed, well delivered and altogether a most successful maiden speech.
It is a temptation now to make another long speech, but I must resist it, although there are a great many points of detail in the speech made by the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, with which neither I nor my noble friends could possibly agree. However, at this hour of the evening, we shall have to agree to differ. As the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, says, there will be other opportunities of debating some of these Defence matters. Particularly, it may be wise and possible to arrange a debate upon the Territorial Army and the other two Auxiliary Forces to coincide with the opening of the recruiting campaign. As I said

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earlier, I am sure it is right that the other Forces should be associated with this campaign. I think it was not one of the things to be laid at our door that, apart from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, the only speakers in this debate have come from these Benches. An explanation at once occurs to me that no doubt other noble Lords were reserving their energies for the support of the campaign in favour of recruiting to the Auxiliary Forces, to which I am certain all Parties are committed.
As I say, there are many points on which we still do not agree with the noble Viscount opposite. In fact, we did not complain—at least, I certainly did not complain—of the rate of demobilisation. What I did say, and what I still say, is that steps were not taken quickly enough to replace the people who were demobilised or to produce a system for providing fresh Auxiliary Forces and Reserves requiring training. I must deny the allegation that I have not sufficiently in mind the needs of industry. If one is making a comparison of the numbers out of work with the numbers after the 1914–1918 war, one has to add nearly 1,000,000 to make up for the people who are to-day engaged in National Service. In the same way, I know perfectly well that the present official policy toward the Rhine Army is that it should be largely a training establishment. I was saying that in my opinion it was unwise that it should be so largely a training establishment.
I think that one of the best pieces of news that we have heard this evening is the news about the Royal Naval Special Reserve (if that is its correct title), and the forecast that something of the same sort might be done for the other Services. That leads me to the final thought in my mind, that it is impossible to weigh up this debate, from the point of view of the noble Viscount's reply, without reading the report of the debate in another place to-morrow. The whole of our case depends upon whether this was an isolated effort, or whether it was part of a bigger and more progressive plan. If it turns out to be the former, then we shall judge of what has been announced today in its proper context. If it turns out that this is really the main dish, then our
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views, as expressed here, are known. What we wish to see, as one noble Lord (I cannot recall which) said, is a state of affairs where our Defence Services make the best possible use of the money which can be allotted, where they are given a proper chance to produce an efficient striking force and therefore contribute to what we all desire so ardently, especially at this present time—that is, the forestalling of war. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AREA (CONSERVATION OF WATER) ORDER, 1948
Special Procedure Order (together with a certificate from the Minister of Health): Laid before the House pursuant to the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  EX-SERVICE MEN'S ALLOWANCES
  EX-SERVICE MEN'S ALLOWANCES
  ENBORNE VALLEY RESERVOIR SCHEME
  ENBORNE VALLEY RESERVOIR SCHEME